I'm meeting someone for lunch at the cafe, the member's cafe. Uh, is that the only one there is? No no no. So there's another one, right? OK thanks. How ya doin'? I'm meeting someone at the member's cafe? OK. Oh, she's doing it. Whatever needs to be done, she's doing it. Have you been there yet? Great. How do I get there? Uh huh. Thanks a lot. I'm supposed to meet someone here for lunch and I don't know if we have a reservation the name is Perloff? OK so. I don't think so. Can we get a table for two? OK sure, sure. I'll I'll sit at the table. It's easy. I'm always one step ahead of you. OK, I think we're going to be three. All right. Thanks. Um, I'll just have a glass of water right now, thanks. Just New York City tap. That's the good stuff. Marjorie? I wasn't sure if it was you. Nice to meet you. Hi. Oh, I'm glad you saw it. Oh, I I brought you a copy. I wasn't sure if you if you got it. 12:30. Should we go look at should we go look at the Monets? What is it? What have you got? Really, really. Can I see that? Yeah. Yeah. I'm sitting here. Now, who are we meeting? I brought you this but you've seen it. OK. You want it? Did you read it? Why don't you take it? You read it. Did you see this? This is some work I've I've got up at the Jewish Museum right now. It's a funny show and actually it's problematic it's a problematic show for the same reasons as the multicultural stuff. This time they've done if for the Jews. No seriously. We've we've...Don't you think maybe... That was the problem with this show. That was the problem with this show. Was it very Jewish. It's not out yet. Of course these things are waiting and waiting and waiting. I'm glad. I'm glad. The book that he talks about. It's 600 pages and it's being published by The Figures. Yeah. Well, well. Well, this is the same problem, though. It's a show based on Judaism and, uh...in a strange way, you know, like after, listen the Jews, after the World War it was, you know, you know, I think there was so much guilt going on and the Jews were, you know, at the top of the hegemony for for this and then suddenly in the multicultural discourse there's been no Jewish stuff. So then this show comes up and it's Too Jewish and it's I actually think it falls into the same problems that the multicultural stuff does, this time it's being Jewish. Because where has the Jews been in this in this dialogue? Oh wow. Huh, huh. What has he written on Cage? What has he written on...Great. Is he on the Cage list? The name is not familiar. The soft stuff. The soft stuff, you know? Like the Unabomber. He sounds like Kaczynski. Oh no. If I never had to leave this city I'd be happy. I mean, I'm with you on that. Well I do Internet for a living and I work listen I put Douglas on the Internet. Have you seen Douglas's site? Yeah. I know. I was there with him doing... You don't have you don't have web access Charles told me. You have graphical web access? Or are you still...or you still on an old text-based thing Unix thing? You're on Lynx, right? When you go to read your article on Alt-X, which of course, I thought was amazing that article. I've printed it out and sent it out to a zillion friends of mine...Well no no no. When you go to look at it what do you see? What do you see? Just tell me visually what you see on your screen. OK, then you do have Netscape. OK. You're the most most least technophobic person I know. And I don't know you but I know you through your work. They don't they don't teach you this stuff at at school? So you've you've seen Douglas' site? Don't you have it at home? Do you have Internet at home? OK, good. Charles tells me Charles tells me that you have nothing but email! He's so technologically technologically...Right. Well, there are wonderful search engines now. Listen to this. Yahoo Yahoo's dead. The one the one you've got to go to is called Altavista. What it does is you plug in two words Kenneth plus Goldsmith it searches...I'll have a glass of white wine, that's a great idea. What do we like? Chardonnay. We like Chardonnay. I'm not a member. No, I'm not a member. No no. I told them I was meet I told them I was meet...Before we do that before we do that I want to tell you what we do is I plug in your name Marjorie plus Perloff OK? And what it does is it searches after it searches every. Right. Right. Oh, it doesn't matter it it just sees the string Marjorie plus Perloff...no this is incredible. That's incredible. You don't have a Macintosh, do you? You do? Charles would lead me...lead me...That's easy I'll tell you how to get that. Don't you have speakers? Cause you can get any little even on your Powerbook you can get sound. It's built in--they have speakers on there. What Altavista? Oh, you did. w w w dot altavista dot digital dot com. Of course, of course. Dot altavista this is a new language, Marjorie. No one word. Altavista. There's no spaces in U R L's. Dot. Digital. Dot. Com. Dot. Digital. Dot. Com. OK. But I haven't told you why it's great and let me tell you why it's great. OK you you between words if you put Kenneth Goldsmith in it will come in with every Kenneth and every Goldsmith but if you put Kenneth plus Goldsmith it'll only hit the items applicable to me. Uh, that's on the net, yeah. Right. Just what you have...Well, it's not that specific but if you enter John plus Cage. Nice, really great to meet you, it's about time. I'm not so young. I'm not that young. I'm thirty four. I'm thirty four. How old is Nancy? I know about she's famous. I know about her. Thirty nine? I thought she was much younger! Nancy, let's see, Nancy works at the theater. Kerry works at the theater. Nancy works at MOCA. At the Getty but she used to work at the L.A. Contemporary. Of what? The Nancarrow collection of what? Oh really, how amazing. What a minute, she's doing music stuff? Fabulous! No no no. I've I've heard of your daughter who's in the artworld. I mean in the artworld in art circles, she's famous. What did she write on Satie? No kidding. Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm looking for a good Satie book--I've got the two bios and they're terrible. Very good. How cool. Huh. I think they have they must have "73 Poems." What was the name of the guy at the Getty who used to do the visual poetry collection? He's a nice guy. He knows you. An older guy. I met him. He was nice. I had dinner with him he was very sweet. He was not such a low...yeah, I had dinner with him one night. Yeah. So Nancy replaced him. Right. Right. OK. Well, I'll tell you we'll I'll tell you. I have a radio show and all I play is Tudor, Cage, Nancarrow, Jackson...this is fabulous. Good Cage stuff. M.C. Richards, wait a minute, M.C. Richards. She's a potter yes. I know. This is the little this is the little...well Cage thought Cage thought the work of her, but that's the sort of crunchier side that's the crunchier side of Cage. I mean we don't know that, maybe he'll be hardcore but...so you've been so you've been to Douglas's web site. I've done that for Douglas. I did that whole. Did you see the picture of two people sleeping? Oh, come now! Really? I'm on the phone with Douglas every day. I And here's the perk--which you have already--but the perk of working for Douglas is that I get every title he produces. I know you do. I know. I don't read novels. I mean I don't like fiction. Right. But that was that was when it worked. That yeah, well listen I think he makes a lot of money on that stuff he's certainly not going to make. You think when David comes we can throw around opinions like this? Like just totally? I mean...this is gossip I love I mean this is what was missing this is what was missing from Joan's wonderful book on Cage. Why did she why did she I I know her well enough, why did she turn the tape recorder off? The gossip was what I was interested in. Well Cage Cage tends to get that...we are waiting. Yeah. We're just gossiping. We're just gossiping, that's all. We're too busy gossiping. I don't want to put anything in my mouth. This is great. This is great. The one across the street is nice too, the China Grill. It's all business people. No, this was a good move. But I have this I have a problem with the Cage thing. I feel it gets too religious. The name. Oh, from the Cage trust? Yuk. Not wanting to say anything about Marcel. OK, I wanna I wanna I wanna stay on this for a second because I have a real problem. I think that, like, the coolest thing about Cage was that it was so free and yet and yet the disciple thing and the and the worshipful thing is really binding. This is not what he was about. Oh, that's so morbid! John said to me...it morbid. Uh, I think he's on the I think he's on the list. I love well what did I tell what did I say in your review? He cruised the Palisades. That was the most that was the greatest thing I'd ever read. I love, I mean as I've told you, I love that and that what what the David Revill--whatever his name is--the guy that did the bio left out. It's horrible. Do you know I heard Mark Swed is doing a bio of Cage. I love Mark Swed. You don't? Oh you we were in Warsaw at the same time by the way. Remember I was in the Art Art. We asked you to come to the Artists Museum in Lodz it was at the same time as the Cage conference in...Right. This is interesting. This is interesting for me to hear. Oh. Well I'll tell you. Right. Neither can I but I know...Good. Good. Great. Let me tell you why I think Swed is alright because in this city, which is so artistically conservative Mark Swed is the only person out there pushing a Cage agenda pushing a radical music agenda. That's why I say he's terrific. He's the only person in New York who's promoting New Music. Oh is that right...this is the only reason that I'm saying that I like Mark. I don't know him personally but...How can he tell you you don't know. Joan's Joan's work is good. Her her her own work her own poetry is interesting. Well we all are in some degree. Ulla's a dear friend she is she's really obsessed. Yeah. Well, it seems to me like sort of a weird seventies thing? There was like a lot of...Do we know any men that are like this? It gets so it gets old OK OK good. Good. OK OK good. OK OK great. Oh, in some ways! His whole trip was controlling! He was like I'll set the parameters...It's not wrong. No no no it's not. No. My wife said my wife said when I met John a few times through Joan La Barbara but I used to get really bummed out at the reverential nonsense that surrounded him and Cheryl once said to me--Cheryl Donegan, my wife who is a very well known video artist, whose work you'd really adore--she's got a show right now in SoHo. Maybe if you're around...yeah, maybe I'll meet you over there and show you her show. I think you I think you'll like Cheryl's work. She's very well known. Do you want to do you want to see that? We'll talk we'll talk about it. Well I saw Bruce last night. Why don't we all get together? Bruce and I went to Bruce and I went to an absinthe party last night. I took Bruce to...you know you know the work that I've done on all of Bruce's covers. I did X Y and Z I did Tizzy Boost I did Divestiture-A. You know that we're dear friends. Bruce is. I well not only I feel it but he's very jealous of Charles. Can I tell you that? I mean, I always...Bruce is really really, I mean he's, Bruce is one of my best friends but he is really jealous of Charles he is...yeah Bruce was at the opening, Bruce came to the dinner, Bruce came to the absinthe party last night...no no no, but we'll all do that. Let me just quickly, to finish my Cage Cheryl said, you know, you and you and John probably wouldn't have gotten along. Cheryl said this to me about Cage. I mean in a because...oh he did I mean I'm that's why I like Bruce.