So tell me. Tell. Oy vey iz mir! Health Food! What do you mean you're Viennese? You are born in Vienna? Are you born Jewish? Well, I don't know. Cause I know your last name is Jewish. And you seem very Jewish. What's your maiden name? So you're Jewish. You're Jewish. Really? Really? Really? Well you Bruce is doing a big Viennese piece with Sally Silvers. He's doing he's taking he's deconstructing Lulu. Oh yes he is, yeah. OK, let's let's dish. Let's I'm gonna I'm gonna really dish dish uh...I know and also...Charles is a diplomat, he's a lovely man. No. Bruce. Bruce is the most...Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No no no he's why do you look for him he's...oh, he'll find us. Did you tell him...he'll find us. Come let him find us here. This is too much fun! I'm telling you...I'm gonna really we'll really dish. We'll really dish. You know, increasingly increasingly he's become more and more obsessed with Charles's career and Charles's power. Yeah. And and and Bruce is at one moment disdainful and at the other moment really envious of what Charles has done. Well I also think that Bruce...It was over in ‘84. It was canned in ‘84. I mean if you want to talk about irreverence and and very hard core I mean really Bruce has not softened. No I was going to do I was going to do some I was going to do some. I know you I know you do. It's incredibly monotonous. I mean, you know, it's incredibly monotonous. What I like, I mean, listen, what I respect Bruce position. I really respect his unyielding thing. I think it's a bit dated. I have a I have a problem. I think it may I think it maybe an extension and sort of an end of a modernist thing. Where, you know, it's not a future. I see it as a past, it's not a future. Well, that's the here we are. Here we are. That kind of very hard line that kind of very hard line...Yeah. No I wasn't. He can be and I've always said that I would never want to be on Bruce's bad side. Hit list. Is it because of the work? Is it because of the attitude? And Bruce can't stand Susan's work. No, he just thinks it's so he just thinks it's so soft. That's not right. Yeah. And Bruce will trash it. Listen, he's hard core. That's your seat. How ya' doin'? Actually, there's an article on my work in here. I was going to give it to Marjorie but of course she's already seen it. It's bookmarked there. Starting here and rolling rolling through rolling the next few pieces. It's all stuff about them, right. So, of course I was going to show Marjorie, but of course she's already read it. Oh, I'll just take that. We're having...yeah, oh I'll have another please. Oh, you know, I don't want to commander that. Sure. I live downtown. I know Cold Spring, Long Island. OK, where is it? Like, what's it near? Yeah, yeah. Yes. It's...OK, yes I do. I'm a DJ on WFMU, do you know 91.1? OK, we've just set up a repeater station. Yes, no, you can get it up there you'll be able to get WFMU. It's's more like WQHD or something like that and it's like 90.1. You'll if you fish around you'll be able to get it we're we're repeating broadcasting up there now. Yes. Oh yeah, oh great, oh yeah. Well, we're right East Orange. What kind of show do I have? Um, it's mostly twentieth century classical and experimental stuff. Yeah, yes as a matter, yes I do. We're already going on Sorabji. So, how do you two know each other? What aspect of Wittgenstein are you writing about? My book is full, the book that that is written about there, is just full of things I've stolen from from Wittgenstein. The book, no, you have you will see it. The one that's coming out from The Figures. No, it's a it's a straight...fifteen dollars. Yeah. Yeah. It's called No. 111 2 7 9 3 through 7 2 3 9 5. It will be and I'll get your address and we'll we'll getchya one. But I perused Zettel? Zettel? Is that correct? I perused that and I took things that that I took a lot from it this book so there you go. We were, yeah, we were. Finishing gossip, finishing up gossip! I've forgotten it all! Oh, it's about it's it's sounds and language that I've collected for three years. Right. Right written down. It's like what? It's interpretations by Joan La Barbara of poems that I did. So we did a piece called 73 Poems and...Yeah, yeah, actually Lovely Music put it out commercially so it had had legs. Joan did the composing. Joan did the composing, right. Oh! What do you have? Oh, tell me about that! Hmmm. Hmmm. Where are your CD's on what label? OK OK. You know because at FMU. Yeah. He's he's he's he's great Glen Velez. I have. Yeah, right. You've seen a picture, I must have sent you a photograph of that, yeah. On the Internet. This is a page from the book. This is this is this is like the chapbooks I've sent you but it's a six hundred page uh uh uh gone of to two thousand syllables instead of ninety. I stole this from you! I stole this format from you! Putting this putting the border around the page. Of all your of all your pages that are reproduced in your books, right? And she puts a border around them yes you do yes you do you put you have a a rule around your pages. In Radical Artifice the visual pages yes. Let's see. I'm gonna tell you I stole it from you. Look! I'm not joking! I stole the format from you! Well I stole this this I've never s...the page the delineation of the po...which I think, right, which I think your husband did it. Did. Didn't he lay these things in? See, look, here you are again. Looks at the rules the rules, uh uh uh, this is called...I know you did. Hull? Which was that? What's her maiden name? She's Lyn Hull now? She's gone back to it. No, I find it more...This is interesting, yeah. OK, I'm coming...we're doing a collaboration. We found the transcripts from the Mike Tyson trial. But you know Charles. What fringes are you on, like, what circles do you move in? He's he's got one. I sure do. I sure do. Well this is a great looking journal! Did he dish? Did he dish? Got any good gossip for us? Does Jaron Lanier live in New York? The thing is the thing is we're on the same Internet server so I can do...on Panix. So I can I can do a users command in Panix and see jlanier logged in like constantly. No no, of course, of course, and and. I taught myself, yeah. I did it through yes yes it's my business. We're working we're working on it. Yeah, I'm from Long Island. I will have I was gossiping so um I will have the cavatelli please. Pardon? Sure, sure, um...why don't you give me a green salad, whatever you guys have, just a salad. Is it good? Is it good? The cavatelli? Is it dull? Is it dull? Honestly. Who are we talking about? Eliot, I know Eliot, yeah. Yes. Forty-six. I have to tell you there is third generation Language poetry going on and it's really depressing. I mean, It's as sad as the New York School. It's as sad it's as sad as Ron Padgett. He's a nice guy. It's right. Terrible. Terrible. Yeah, yeah. Un un un unfortunately the the Language thing is getting to be like like umpteenth generation Language Poetry. It might be. It might be. It might be. I'll tell you the the Ear the Ear Inn is real dead. Anybody. Yeah. Do you know the Ear Inn? Oh you did? Really, wow! I don't know, the Nuyorican is happening! The Nuyorican is happening! Do we do we need? What can we what can we say about nature then then that isn't that isn't what you're saying? What's to say...? Let me tell you something. Let me tell you something. All of his his his stories. Joan La Barbara would tell me John would sit in hotel rooms toward the end of his life and get plastered on scotch. You know yes toward the end Joan said toward the end of his life that all yes of course publicly and I said that to Joan I said I thought he I thought he stopped drinking, you know, of course he all of this and and Joan Joan said yes please. Joan said he would...It's OK, unless unless you what does it mean when you say you're not you're not drinking you know...I'll tell you what he didn't like. He didn't like anything that wasn't in line with his ethical thoughts. For example, popular culture. He couldn't handle it. This would never enter into his work. Very rarely. Of course he wouldn't like Brian Eno. Well well I had this Jackson and I were down in Florida with the Sackners thanks. Jackson and I would, uh, I know. We were down doing a doing a a sound-poetry festival there. And I was I was arguing for popular culture's become really really interesting it's become incredibly sophisticated. Everybody in popular culture has read Wittgenstein. It's it is it's smart now and Jackson's like no no no popular culture Jackson Mac Low he says he says it's terrible people I'm like no it's really interesting now. Popular Culture watching it on T.V. is quite is quite fascinating. So I go back to my hotel room, I turn on the T.V. and they're playing old Guy Lombardo runs from the fifties and I was like, right this is popular culture from when Jackson and John were were were butting against popular culture and I thought to myself right it was lousy it was horr you know, it really was and, you know, a lot of...It's very good. There's been there's been so much terrible art made under that assumption. No no no thank you. That's rich though, that's good. He aligned himself with McLuhan in the sixties. He loved technology. That was the coolest thing about John. Oh he was a big, oh he was so interested in posterity. No but he, yeah right right. Oh I disagree. I disagree! As a DJ as a DJ I'm a DJ no I have a I do right all all experimental and all all twentieth century. It's unbelievable and some works better than others. I mean you put on Diary it's terrific listening. Indeterminacy is terrific listening, um, Fontana Mix is terrific listening. Oh I agree listen I think a lot of it is real dull to listen to personally. Oh wow, during that period? Are you on the tape? What is your question? No no I love the tape! He said that he would disappear he said in his writings somewhere that a composer after their death disappears for a while but then they reemerge. That's in your that's in your article. Are you on the Cage list? Uh, do you have email? I'll send you the information on it. Silence at b g a dot...Oh, yeah, Joseph Zitt. Are you on the poetics list? I, you know what Marjorie, can I be honest with you can I be honest? I've I've I've temporarily signed off. I'm still working on this. Do you know an interesting composer at NJIT named Michael Rosenstark? Yeah. Yeah. He does very very interesting experimental music. No at NJIT, yeah. I a CD arrived in my mailbox at the station and it was Michael Rosenstark and it was. I won't I'll email you his address. Very good. I'll be one. Sign me up. My job my job my job. I'm Internet. I build web sites. Geography is not important. Of course I could. Of course I don't have a card. A card would be the death of me. Yes I do, of course I would. I would love to build a web site for you. Sorry? kgolds k g o l d s at panix right dot com p a n i x dot com. And uh, yeah. If you need a site for Terra Nova I am I am I've I've. Oh, I'm writing I've got CDs I've got books I've got all sorts of things. The first book that I sent you was probably No. 105. That was the first, yeah the first one of the first chapbooks. Well, you know, I was trained as a sculptor. And I I...I was trained at RISD. I went to RISD. Do you know RISD. Rhode Island School of Design. I was trained as a sculptor and I started making sculptures of books and I would carve words into them. Exactly. Well, that's a problem. The book art thing I think is a problem. Well Johanna Johanna's literary. Because most of it's not...Yeah, I saw that in there. I saw that...well because because it's not literary it's it's sort of these unique sort of artworks that don't...Did you see the site that I did for Steve Clay, Granary Books? I did a big Internet site for Steve Clay and Granary Books. OK, I did that. I know. Terrible yeah. Very sad. I know, they've done several books together and then they've they've done Nude Formalism together. It's bad and I don't like it. They've been together for so long. Exactly exactly exactly. There's no no yeah. What do you think of that book. I agree. I agree with you and I think that's a problem with Ruth and Marvin's collection. I think a lot of what they have is crap. These are people in Florida, yeah right, they have five hundred thousand works of art, and they're all text-based. No no no they started with the Russian Avant Garde. They make Susan look great. They make Susan look good. Do they? Does Ruth and Marvin? Ruth and Marvin. Does Charles? Well I built I built see I built the Granary Books site and that's about as much as yes, that's the job. Marjorie, why don't we put why don't we put your books why don't we put excerpts or chapters from your books on line? Why don't we do that. Why don't we do that? I mean obviously both of us know Marjorie through her work and have been we've been...I've never met Marjorie before. We've corresponded lots I've written about I wrote about her Cage book and and she's written about my seventy three poems book we've corresponded through email and she's got a terrific new piece on Alt-X. Are you familiar with Alt-X? It's a really great site. Wait a minute. Would you stop being would you stop being so humble? Alt-X is a is one of the most interesting literary sites on the web. It's called Alt-X. You sure did. Which is part of Alt-X. It's under the umbrella of Alt-X. She doesn't know. I'll send you the URL. It's it's it's. Do you have Netscape? Do you have graphical. What what what size modem do you have? OK and do you have some. What kind of computer do you have? Which one? A II SI. Well, it will be slow on a II SI. You have a Performa. A Power PC. With the Power PC's things really fly. The 28.8 modem is better you need to get one. You need a 28.8 modem and you need a Power PC. I'm like the Internet--no I'm not Jaron Lanier--but I live I live I live on it no I saw that he doesn't like that. OK Alt-X is where your paper is housed. It's w w w dot alt-x dot com. And you are on that site and it's a good literary site. I told I was gonna say that to you. I'm a stickler for that stuff. But I got the idea. I got the I got the idea. OK there's something that's happening but you don't know what it is do you Mr. Jones. Marjorie says something is happening Mr. Jones and you don't know what it is Mr. Jones. I got the I got it. Excuse me for a second. This is a trip. Change tape. Why don't we do that? Well, what you do is you email me texts and I will scan images from your books cause I have every book that you've done. Of course I what do you mean do you do? David tell her. David David too Marjorie. Which is the Wittgenstein book. That I don't have. That I don't have. That I don't have. And this is gone out of print. What does the cover look like, tell me? Never. I've never. I have it. I have the famous ones. Poetic License, The Futurist Moment. Who is this? Northwestern? Northwestern? Thank god. Did you help him do that? You did. Good for you. Good for you. Bruce is so excited. Well I have the Poetics of Indeterminacy which a blue, which is the blue cover from the paperback. But David, is your book not not gonna work out with California? With Chicago? On Alt-X on Alt-X I read that the Wittgenstein book was out. Oh, that's why I wrote you that email I said Marjorie I didn't know that there was this book. So David, you have a book coming out from the same press. I love his name. Herman Rappaport! What is she? Wittgenstein? I'll like it. Oh, I'll like it! So they did. OK. Well, we love Bill Viola sure. You need to see Cheryl's work. I think you need to talk about Cheryl's I think you need to talk about Cheryl's...Marjorie I will look into it. Cheryl has Cheryl has Cheryl has books. Yeah. This is what I'm thinking of. Let me. Let me. Marjorie, why don't we meet up at Cheryl's show? She will tell you. Why don't we meet on Wednesday with Bruce. You do. Why don't we meet you. I think you would enjoy to talk about Cheryl's work I mean she's one of the most well known young video artists. I think she's important to speak about. Yeah yeah yeah. She'll let you know every whatever you need. Oh, I think it's so stupid. Marjorie you'd be interested in Cheryl. Cheryl and I are going to Athens for two weeks in May to do a uh a uh poetry video collaboration where I'll be reading from my book and Cheryl will be painting and video taping me as I read. No interview, thank you. So, I'll look for your records tomorrow night. I like I met this guy Robi Droli is. I met him I met him at the Cooler the Ben Neill night. Yeah yeah I know him with all the stuff. Yeah yeah I've met him. That's great, it's a great label. I know they do. As a matter of fact I'm sure they. I know we don't have the Riley at the station. Yeah yeah yeah. As a matter of fact, if you send them to me, I'll donate them to the station which they'll get lots of play. Uh, I'll let you know tomorrow night. I'll tell you what--I'll go out to the station, I'll look for them tomorrow night, if they're not there I'll email you and I'll let you know and you'll send them to me care of the station. What time are you when are at at New Jersey? Five or six at night. Yeah. Yeah, please let me know. I'll email you so I can get get get you a this is fun. She's a trip. Marjorie's a trip. Sorry? Yeah. It does? Maybe that's the thing that I was saying about being in New York is that you know you know people before you know their work. You don't know the work before you know people. You know you know everything about everything and it's it's, you know, uh, what's uh...In New York it's impossible.