Hi, what is your address there? We're coming to the party tonight and we can't make it home. OK, uh huh, OK great so see you tonight. So thanks a lot. OK bye. Hello. Who's this. Susan, it's Kenny Goldsmith. What does that mean? Do I sound dead? Oh well, I'm a DJ, you know? Hey listen, did you get to see the site? You did? Your book? What do you think? You're happy with it? OK, great. I am the one that did the site. Yes OK, great. You think your work it's representative in some feeble of your book? OK. Great. Great. Yeah. Did you poke around the site a little bit and see any of the other stuff. I mean, it's not as sexy as a CD-ROM but but, you know, it works, doesn't it? Oh, that's right because you guys are doing another book with him he told me. God, busy busy. That's great. It's a funny it's a funny. He's just so lovely, isn't he? Isn't he great to be involved with, I mean. I know. He's the best. He's the best. So anyway I was just calling to see how you guys were doing with the computer and everything. Alright, is it working? Is everything OK? Alright. I just wanted I haven't spoken to you in a bit. Go get it I'll talk to you later. OK, do what you gotta do. That's just me. OK. Alright. How was your lunch? How was it? Was it fun? She's nice. Isn't she? What? Oh you...? Oh, she's so funny, isn't she? She's full of laughs. Everybody starts yelling everybody starts yelling at each other, don't they? No. That's the way you've got to deal with her. You've got to yell back. I like I like her. I think she's really nice. She's really cool, yeah, she's really cool. Well, so I'm glad you liked the site anyway I wanted to ask you what you thought and...OK, well I'll. OK, well... Did you see the new Art in America? There's a big big thing on on a book I just made, yeah. OK, have a look at it. I'd love you I'd love you to see the book when it's done. And we got... No, it's finished. It's being published by Geoff Young. Yeah yeah, so. Yeah. This probably recently happened since the art you know how these guys work, right? Great. Did you see Cheryl's review in the paper? OK, good. Alright, well we're up on you we're up on you and you know I just wanted to wanted to get just get your take on the uh on the web site. I just I've gotten a lot of really nice feedback. It could be the best I think it's the best site I've done. Oh you know really, just just really cool. Have you been having any fun on the web or...? No? You haven't been out and around and having fun? Oh, I'm sorry. Alright listen so let's talk I I hope I see you soon. I'm just around and stuff, you know? Let's just hang out or something it was it was, you know... OK. OK. Good. I'm glad you saw it. Um, I'll talk to you soon, OK? Charles? How you doin'? I just want to hear how how things are going with your your machine. Yeah. Yeah what do you think? Do you like it? Is it coming in quick is it coming in clear? Yeah we had we had lunch today. She mentioned she saw it she mentioned she showed it, you know, you showed it to her and she said that you guys had a great time last night and all this stuff but... Yeah. Yeah. We sat... Yes? I don't get it. Great. Yeah. Great. Steal ‘em. Go ahead. No no no. I give you permission. I'll give you more if you want. Did he let you know you just press on the yeah yeah. You know it's a little diffi... it's more difficult on Granary. Yeah. Yeah. It's in frames, yeah. It's granary books dot com. Oh it's interesting OK so he figured that out. I want to know how your machine's running. Any problems? Anything I can help you with? Yeah. OK, did you get like Sound Machine and everything have you been downloading your sound files? Oh Charles, that's what I meant to ask you! How did Broadway net work out? So you're up with them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are so you're logging into the uh Broadway net from your home. OK and it... Yeah you just switch your pop account to right. I don't use it at all for email either. I'm keeping my panix account for that it's always good to have a backup account. Right. Right. Do you want me to put a forward or anything on your Broadway account or? Right. Right. Yeah, me neither. Unless like they sent something in house but I don't yeah... right you have to telnet in right and put a dot forward right and put it right exactly in right exactly. Put your email address right and they'll zip it in. OK. What are you using? So you guys finally figured it out. I see Loss has made some changes on the site up there. What what was it due to some of my comments? Uh huh. OK good. Yeah no I we we really went crazy Loss and I. Yes I have. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Why is that? You get it Charles. I'm telling you of course you do but what about the typical web user? No, I don't have time for a three hour download. Charles, we're joking. Oh good, well alright listen I just wanted to see how things were. I'm glad I'm glad to hear everything's up and running and everything's goo good with you guys? OK, well, let's get together or something. You know Marjorie and I had lunch today at at at at the MOMA and that was really fun and uh you know, she's great. Good. OK, let's be in touch. I'll just be a few minutes, OK? OK? You almost ready, baby? Is it cold out? What? What are you doin'? Cheryl? What are you doin'? Do you know where you're going to? What time do you have to be at class? OK, you wanna hang for a touch or you wanna get going? I'm just finishing up some work. OK. How's this record sound? It's a little bit old. Sounds good, doesn't it? OK, I'm ready. How about you? Here's the card of that woman who showed your work in Russia. Are they still into Symbolism there? They asked her about the red lipstick there and she said I don't know--it's sexy and it makes great stains on the bread. You're hot stuff. I love you. Here, hold it. Ay, don't you dare. Looks like Hay. Why did you say it looks like Hay? Like Hay? OK, c'mon let's go this is gonna be good for you to go to this thing tonight. John Nuyman. Is Alix going? What time is she coming? Yeah. I got wasted today at lunch. Yeah. Seriously. Cats dig grass. What's that mean? I'm just working. I've been taping everything. Sure am. Sure it. No it hasn't been. OK, we're moving again. We're set that's written by Marjorie's daughter. Isn't that interesting? She's a musicologist at OK it's all working again. Yeah, pretty neet, huh? She was wild, man. These are really beautiful. That's beautiful, isn't it? Look at that horse. OK, we're all set. I'm I'm sorry for that delay. Something very simple was wrong. OK men. I had a really intense time. I wonder if I went too far? No, I don't think I went too far. I went far with her. I mean I really went far. I mean I went out on a limb. I went so far out as to say about Cage--and this upset her but I think it was good-- I said we were talking about gossip I went back to my gossip theory how important gossip is, and we uh, I said, um that the canon. I said that her book was groundbreaking and I said her book made me realize that the canon was created by um, the canon is--I had a really great line for it I said it very simply I said the canon is created by who's sleeping with who or something like that. Oh and she didn't like that. She said now you're tramping on my on my ‘cause we were dishing Cage you know how he was such a careerist and you know really going on about that and then but once I said that she says oh no! Now you're dissing my idol or something like that you know. Um, I think so. I was really outrageous. I was OK so we meet and we just start going. And I know she wasn't letting me get a word in edgewise but I I I battled her to get my words in edgewise, right? And then I went out of my way you know to be like completely completely talkative with her and completely insane, you know, like myself, you know, real up. We were going back and forth and back and forth, you know, we were gossiping we couldn't stay on a subject, you know, and then this guy joined us. Who was actually really nice but he was not a sniper and I said Marjorie, when this guy comes--he came a half hour later--I said Marjorie, when this guy comes, is it gonna be OK for us to dish and snipe like this? She says, yes, we're gonna throw opinions around. As it turns out he was a nice he was actually a really nice guy. You know, but the conversation tamed but I I I couldn't have kept that up for like two hours we were there for over two hours but I could not have kept up the pace with her and I was really glad this guy came. And I kept saying outrageous things. The canon is formed you know, by uh who's screwing who or something like that. I said look at John Cage, he screwed Philip Johnson. And and and Marjorie says so? I said so how do think he got his Summergarden his his his concert at MOMA? And, you know, she said do you think he did that as a career as a career move? I said well partly. I said he was very strategic strategic about who he slept with, that's for sure. And I said, your book, you know, left that out. But she was sort of, you know, flip-flopping a little bit back and forth. I think she's probably thought that was a pretty good thing. They were nice. I think she thought it was sort of a cool thing. But I was acting really outrageous and I told her I told her I'd build her a web site. Oh, she loved it! She's got, you know, she said how much would it cost I said ah, you know, we'll talk about it, you know, you know, I suggested I'd build her a web site and she loved it or she suggested that I build her one. And I I I thought that's a great idea, you know, I said I'd love to put all your stuff online. I think that would be terrific. Um. Yes she did. She she she OK. First thing I did was yeah. I brought her the uh, it gives us a chance to talk. I brought her the Art In America article, you know, I brought her I bought her a magazine and I gave it to her and before I could even give it to her she said oh I saw the Art In America thing. That is wonderful. I read it. I got it the day before I left I was so happy. I was you're doing so well. You know she was so happy to see that. She's so up on it. What do you mean? Ah look, to tell you the truth I don't think she really, you know, she really read it with any detail. I think she saw it. I mean, she's a big flatterer. You know, she's very she likes to flatter. And so by the end of the time, you know, I'm not quite sure of what she thinks. She was taking all sorts of different approaches to different people, you know, and and she would kind of turn on a dime a little bit and she was really mean to the guy we were gonna meet behind his back. She's like, he's an environmentalist. And when I hear the word environmental I just want to run. She's like, I hate ecology. It has nothing to do with my life ecology. And she said and I hate nature even more. Why don't we walk, why do we go down like Lafayette or something it's a little quieter. And this guy, yeah she's a real character, and this guy, you know, he writes on the environment and Cage and Marjorie says he's soft. Right. He's soft she said. You know, she had never met the guy but she sort knew his writing and, you know, we were really I was dishing, you know, and dishing, you know, it was a it was so familiar to me it was a real dish session and I was real, just real dishy about the whole thing. In a way that I really, you know, like to sling shit. We were slinging shit. It wasn't high academic stuff. We were just gossiping like mad. Let's walk down here. We were just gossiping like mad, you know, about different people. And she's really, whew!, you know... You know, you know, I just slid into it. Isn't that funny. What? Yeah. Aw. She was really funny, you know. I just sat there I started slinging shit the minute I saw her I could read her like a book. I had her, you know I am sorry to say, I had her on the tip of my finger. Really. I just, you know, I really. I was twirling her on the end. I knew how to play her. Completely. Completely, you know? I was just saying all these completely outrageous things. You know, it wasn't serious. You know she was just, you know, a big dish. She's just a huge disher. You know and so you know it's she talked about my work, you know, she really love, you know, really loved all my work and. You know, she's really nice. I mean, you know, as usual like I'm paranoid like she'll like hate hate the new book and stuff or something. And as a matter of fact I got so drunk and had so much fun I forgot to ask her to write a blurb But the ice has been broken. I'll email her or something and ask her to write it, you know. So yeah, it was it was it was fun. I mean she took us out. The lunch for the three of us was a hundred and fifty dollars. I mean the MOMA thing is really expensive. You know? No we went to like the MOMA thing. Yeah. Yeah. It was nice. I mean I wasn't that hungry because I had eaten I had met John Lee for breakfast. That was that was OK, you know? That was OK. That's where Kenny lives, back there in that little house. Straight back. That's where Hay hangs out in that lot. So, I mean that was OK, that was easy, you know, I know how to play him too. I mean Marjorie was fun, you know, we drank two glasses of wine and I had a glass of cognac for desert in the middle of the day. She joined me for a glass of wine she didn't go she didn't go the extra mile. The guy that we were with was actually OK, you know, he was pretty sweet. But, yeah, I was acting a little bit outrageous and a little bit nutty, you know. But cool. Cool as shit. I mean, it's true. I was just acting cool as shit. Hey, I have the tape if you want to hear! If you want to hear our conversation, it's all there. Yeah. You'll read about it someday. It's all there. Yeah, I was acting, like I'd been in the field for ninety five years. It was fun. She's she's she's really. Yeah she likes to talk but I battled her for time. I wasn't just gonna sit there like a dope and let her let her talk. Yeah. I mean, you know, I wasn't gonna sit there. I just let her let it really really rip. You know, I we we just battled each other. I mean she hates this one she hates that one. She hates the work of this one she hates... Well, she really liked Bruce's stuff, you know, she really thought Bruce was great and underrated and Bruce and her are going to, you know, we're gonna all try to meet on Wednesday at the gallery. She's writing I told you she's writing for the MLA on video art. Yeah, she wants to see your show I told I completely hyped. They had some world wide video festival or something the catalog at the bookstore at MOMA. Something you were in in Holland a couple of years ago I showed her that. And then we ran into the curator and she said oh I'm going to see Cheryl's show and I showed her in St. Petersburg, you know, and I was just like completely, you know, talking about you. Oh, she hates her work. She can't stand it. Well, yeah, we really didn't dis Charles, but you know she really loves Bruce's stuff and she's gonna see Bruce so on Wednesday so I hope we can all see we can all see see each other. You know, it was it was really fun as a matter of fact I got really drunk and I I can't remember that much of it right now I'm sure I will later I'm feeling very right now I'm feeling really foggy. Like like I had like, you know, like I got drunk in the middle of the day or something. Well you've got to teach you've got to be on I mean I, you know, once she once we started going I realized that I would be relaxing. You know, I played her. She's just Jewish, she's gossipy, you know, I just went went for it, you know? So it was fun, you know, I don't know what it means. I don't know if it means anything. You know, we're friends. I mean, she could turn on a dime, you know, she she...she sounds she's just like Jerry except Jerry loves to give you space, Marjorie doesn't. You've got to fight her for the space. You're talking at the same time with her. It's completely crazy. You're just like arrrrggggghhhh, you know, battling for battling for airtime. No she is like Jerry in the sort of gushy warm Jewish way. Oh yeah? You called him? Why? What did he say? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh. Oh, he's so sweet. Yeah. That's nice, so that's good. Huh. Good good good. And was he sweet did you guys yak a little bit? Well, he's a guy who likes to make big promises and if he ever comes through it's great, but but more importantly, you know, I kind of feel like just as importantly or equally importantly is that he's a friend. He's a good guy. I like him. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Blah blah blee blah blah blah. That's nice that you called him. So Cher, tell me about your John Simon thing. I couldn't we couldn't later. What does it look like? Yeah. Yeah. Uh huh. Wow. Huh. Right. Right. Right. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Oh wow. Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's great. That's great. How you doin? Going to John's? OK. We were here. Kenny and Cheryl. Hi. So we're dating him now. We're terrific. Kenny right. Cheryl. What's your name? Of course I do. Here comes someone else. Hi. Oh, look at that. You know I've never been here during the day. I am so tired. It's just hitting me. I'm going to have to get a second wind from somewhere. I have a drink a little hair of the dog. Anyway I'm glad so that's really great so you take screen shots and take it with you. Now I assume he's putting it under Sandra's name so it's going on Sandra's site? I guess so. She paid for it. Good. Great. Is he happy? Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Cool. Bummer. Buuummmmmer. Cheryl. Bummer. I draw I grow them I paint them and I smell them. Bummer. Hey babe. Good good. How often do I get to come to a cocktail party at your house? She sure it. The works all gone but you're showing the multiples. You're showing the multiples, right? So the pieces that we saw in the catalog are going to be at the gallery. Great. We'll be there. I'll be there tomorrow night. She's got French. Great. Great. Is it six to eight? I'll be there. You're right there. Good. Good. C'mon let's get a drink. I need a drink. I need a drink. Here comes Ellen I'll just go. Into oblivion, I suppose. Can I have beer? I see a Corona box hanging out there. Oh. Uh, I'll have a glass of white wine then. I'm really glad that it that it worked out. I'm really I can't wait I guess we'll see it tonight. Yeah. Really. Oh, maybe I'll come. But you anybody can download it for free. Right. That's a good idea. Huh. Good. I don't know how many she'll sell--it'll be hard. Cheryl Donegan. I guess it's got I guess it's got to be connected to a to a Unix machine. It's got to be connected to a machine obviously we couldn't get it on our...it's got to be connected to a site, you know, in order to make the machinery run. Yeah. Yeah but it's got to be put onto a a Unix machine for it to work. Yeah, it's gotta have a yeah it's a script that it runs we don't don't we don't have it. Sure. I paint them I draw them I smell them. Yes. Yes. No he was fine. Fine. I paint them I draw them and I smell them. Yeah. I'm glad because I bought those shoes. I got they they called me back they had my size they found my size and they're sending them to me. I I mean I can't be dressed like this with these boots. So I I yeah when it I got, you know, I'm getting those loafers. I needed a pair of good shoes I mean cool shoes I mean what am I gonna do. Fuck it. Let's blow the three hundred dollars. To hell with it. Let's get rid of it. I spent look I spent one thirty plus tax so you spend the one thirty the one fifty and let's call it a day. Why don't we don't know a soul here. We don't know anyone. Get the food! Wow! I'm so not hungry. I'm so like... I ate two pancakes with John. Here you go. Here you go, honey. Look at that log. What the hell is that? This is all very expensive, isn't it? Marjorie was like Marjorie was saying like what a bummer her work is. Did I tell you this? She hates it so much it's like this horrible hokey Victorian stuff. She says she says I you know it's so difficult because he is such a good artist and and and she's so terrible but you have to act like you like her work. She says I hate her work it's the worst shit I've ever seen, you know, and then she said I can't stand it when artist couples are like that and I was like, hey! Cheryl and I are not like that. You'll love Cheryl's work. You love my work. Oh, well that was when I began to mention you was that then and there. She wanted to know like she said where did you learn about music, you know, weird questions like that. She thinks I know a lot about music. Yeah. Yeah. I told her I was a DJ. What? Did she know what stuff beforehand? Pretty. Did she know what stuff beforehand? Small feet on good artists is not right. I hate small feet. I can't stand I think there is something wrong with men who have small feet. It bums me out. It's true. Did I ever tell you that? I see a guy I saw a guy in the shoe store yesterday who was really tall with small feet and it just didn't look right. Yeah. I hate people with small feet. So. No, no I mean not really. She didn't know a lot about me. She was reading, you know, in Raphael's article she said oh, you know, here's you now I know all about you. She obviously hadn't read it straight through. She was funny, you know, she said you love gossip so much. Where does gossip come into your work? She thinks it's so austere. And I said well when it's five, and then she looks at the page printed in the Art In America she's like, where's the gossip? It's only five syllables. What happens when you get to two hundred five hundred and two thousand? It's all gossip. And then she said something really weird to me. You know how like you always get hung up one thing that somebody says and I and I got hung up on one comment of hers. And the comment was. And it was something like and it wasn't related to this but it just sticking in my mind it's the point she said we're talking about like really dreadful confessional work and she's like well, you wouldn't write anything confessional, would you? I said, well, absolutely not, really. But then I started to think, like some of the longer pieces are little bit confessional but they're mostly appropriated; the I is not me. The I in most of them. It's like I hate this I hate that I'm sick... It's not real but I I look at this lady's cane. Does that look familiar? Yes. It makes me happy to see that actually. Yeah I I got a little, you know, like I have to I'm going to have to give her a little disclaimer before I give her the thing that there's very little of the I in there. I'm interested in a subjectivity that's not my own. I'm interested in a confession that has nothing to do with my life. You know, like taking shit from the net. Yeah, yeah I I... But I mean my my that new work piece of mine the new book is filled with that but none of it's mine. It's all just appropriated. It's chosen for for sound, you know, for sound and... Oh. Right. You should have been we slammed we slammed the reverent Cage disciples, oh we... she slammed them. She hates it. She hates it so much. That's not what John was about that's like that's like the reverent reverential. Like when people go on about handing out grades she's like no, that's not what he was about. Oh yeah. Yeah. It was very intense, you know, I I I, you know, I I I suppose the only way to deal with Marjorie is to come on really strong. To deal with her in any sweet way, like this guy, he's never gonna leave any impression on her this guy we had lunch with. Bright guy. Undergraduate P H D in philosophy graduate P undergraduate in philosophy at Harvard P H D at Boston, you know, in philosophy. Very bright guy. He edits this magazine. He just finished a book on Wittgenstein. Bright guy. Thirty three years old, you know, my age, nice guy really he was very sweet but he was a little watery, you know? And I was figuring the only way to deal with somebody like that is to fucking come at them with equal equal force. I think so, you know, I really... But she said like she felt really bad for Bruce because Bruce because Bruce has really been left out of the loop but she said look, Bruce is his own worst enemy. He's made more enemies, you know, we we put down people in public. Bruce has no sense of politics. He has leftist politics but he has no sense of political savvy. You know, Charles is like Mr. Smooth. He gets everywhere. Bruce, you know, Bruce he makes enemies left and right. She said there was an Italian poets conference she said she said Bruce came to it and he uh so all he did was get up there and and and say how much he hated all the Italian poets that were there. The guy that brought him there--Ballerini--said I'll never have Bruce Andrews to anything I do again. So Marjorie's like, you know, he's he's he's, you know, he you you you read Lyn Hejinian, you read Charles, you read, uh, a little bit of Ron, you know, Ron Silliman, but you don't read Bruce. Nobody even knows who Bruce is and she said the the whole point was because Bruce had just completely alienated everybody. Yeah which he doesn't have. She loves his work but she really feels like he's fucked himself because of you know, and I said look Marjorie I love Bruce, you know, but I'd hate to be on Bruce's bad side. I always say that, man. We're great friends, you know, but I'd hate to be on his on his bad side. She on the other hand she thinks his work is absolutely brilliant but she kept using a word about about Bruce she used the same word over and over again. The word was un, it was a word like uncompromising but it was one I wasn't familiar with intransigent intransigent. Intransig Intransigent. Which I assume just means... Well she she says to me what's the what's the problem with Bruce's work? She asked me that. Yeah intransigent, you know. Why is it that way. To be quite honest I had to say that I really think the problem is that he's um, you know, that it's something from, you know, it's something from another time. You know, it's very it's like the end of Modernism and I and I said it not it's the past and I do really feel this way about Bruce's work, it's it's it's I said it's the past it's not the future. So she says what's the future? I said we're looking for it. She said it's in computers it's in video, you know, you know, she was thinking of us, you know, like all... I'm like well that could be it, yeah. That could really be it, I'm not sure. But I said I'll tell you something that Bruce is like the end of something the very tail end of something. And I have to feel that way about Bruce's work. You know, I I I do feel that way about Bruce's work. I do support it and I do appreciate it but I do think it's the end of something. It certainly not the beginning, you know, I mean it's, you know. And it was interesting. I had to be honest with her, you know, and I kind of feel that way of course I would never say such a thing to Bruce. No no no. We have we will do like we will change names to protect the innocent here. I had this really weird conversation with John today about I was telling him about this piece that I'm making of course I didn't tell him listen to the guise I had during breakfast. I was a little bit nervous about keeping this in my pocket was gonna work. So what I did was I put this thing out on the table but I plugged my Walkman earphones into this but I left the whole thing out on the table running. Yeah of course everybody's carrying their their little piece of technology with them and I looked at everybody, you know, on Broadway has their little Walkman or piece and I'm like great! This is a great guise like when I working with somebody and I'm not like wearing all this coverage. I can just like take my Walkman off, keep my headphones around my neck and click the microphone, you know, nobody will ever know but it's a great disguise. You know so it doesn't have to look so secret so when I was there with John I just had the Walkman there on the table going the whole time! And of course the mic is sitting here on my tie! No I didn't say a word nor did I to Marjorie either. I mean I haven't said anything to anyone about that. No but, you know, ‘cause I was walking around like this today and it looks like a Walkman. Everybody's got their piece of machinery on them. Their beeper their Walkman. Who's gonna say that this a tape recorder and not a Walkman? So, like when I'm walking with Co when I'm working with Connie tomorrow if I'm not wearing three shirts and I don't, you know, and I've wearing a t-shirt I can just put the head and the whole time I wore like with John I was walking out of the restaurant I had the headphones around my neck and it looked like I was like grooving to my my Walkman he he he's not looking at this thing. But I said to John I told him about this piece right, you know, he's like well, you know, we're talking about shit and I said like, you know, like I have this idea with this piece that I could do weird things with this with this work once I collect a week's worth of language that I've spoken shit and spew. Like, how many words is it, right? With an eyedropper and a glass how many drops of water would it take to fill that glass with words that I've spoken for this week? How much would that be? Say it's fifty thousand words. How much what what what would be like the eyedropper visual equivalent of that, you know, it's like talking to John I was like spitting off the top of my head spinning these ideas. Right?