========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 02:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: On Walter Benjamin--forwarded from B.F. X-To: poetics@ubvm.buffalo.edu I've seen over Carla's shoulder some of the back and forth about Walter Benjamin and thought to offer a little information which may be of some interest. Some of this overlaps with what others have already posted. The story of the missing manuscript derives from the memoir of a woman who helped guide refugees--including Benjamin--over the Pyranees and into Spain, Lisa Fitko. The bibliographical knot here fascinates me but may be boring to others. Skip to the next paragraph if lists of books aren't your thing: The full memoir, _Mein Weg ueber die Pyrenaeen_, appeared in 1985, but the excerpt dealing with Benjamin was published before that, in 1982, in _Merkur_. Bernd Witte's _Walter Benjamin: An Intellectual Biography_, published in German in 1985 and in 1991 in English, refers to the _Merkur_ excerpt ("`Der alte Benjamin': Flucht ueber die Pyrenaeen"), which was published in English translation in _Orim: A Jewish Journal at Yale_, 1:2, Spring 1986, pp. 48-59 (under the title "The Last Days of Walter Benjamin"). Susan Buck-Morss in her fine study of the Arcades Project, _The Dialectics of Seeing_, makes use of the Fitko memoir but draws all her information from the copious notes to the German edition of the _Passagen-Werk_, which was first published in 1982. Making the whole business particularly strange is the fact that the _Passagen-Werk_ published an English version of the _Merkur_ bit (now titled "The Old Benjamin"). Apparently, Fitko's account came to light just as Rolf Tiedemann was bringing the _Passagen-Werk_ to press, and there wasn't time to commission a German version. Fitko settled in Chicago after the war and apparently wrote the memoir in English. (Thus Witte, writing in German, cites the _Merkur_ version, while Buck-Morss, writing in English, cites the _Passagen-Werk_.) One question remains, though: why does _Orim_ retranslate the piece into English from German? After giving an account of the journey itself, including its tragic conclusion, Fitko writes (I'm citing the _Orim_ version here): Forty years later, in 1980, I had a conversation with a Professor Abramsky of London. We talked about Walter Benjamin and his work, and I mentioned his last walk and the manuscript. Soon afterward I had a call from Professor Gershom Scholem, a trustee of Benjamin's literary estate and his closest friend. He had heard from Abramsky about our conversation and wanted to know more. I described the events of that day in late September 1940. "But at least the manuscript that meant so much to him was saved," I remarked. "There is no manuscript," said Scholem. "Until now no one has ever heard of it. You must tell me every detail . . ." The voice on the telephone went on, but all I heard was: "There is no manuscript." And all those years I had assumed that it had been salvaged. The manuscript was never found, neither in Port- Bou nor in Figueras or Barcelona. Only the black leather briefcase was noted by the Spanish border authorities, with the remark: _Unos papeles mas de contenido desconcido_--"with papers of unknown content." Buck-Morss repeats the various speculations about what this manuscript might have been which Tiedemann offers in his notes, but it seems to me that this manuscript was almost certainly NOT the Arcades Project, which Benjamin had squirreled away with Bataille's help in the Bibliotheque Nationale. In his last letter to Adorno, dated 2 August 1940 (the last letter in the newly published English edition of the _Correspondence_), Benjamin especially remarks the complete uncertainty in which I find myself concerning my writings. (I have relatively less reason to fear for the papers devoted to the _Arcades_ than for the others.) As you know, however, things are such that my personal situation is no better than that of my writings. This same letter, by the way, mentions his having attempted "to obtain permission . . . to go to Switzerland on a temporary basis, if at all possible." A footnote tells us that permission was not forthcoming. Further, a cryptic passage near the end of the letter refers Adorno to a "Mr. Merril [sic] Moore" of Boston, to whom "Mrs. W. Bryher, the publisher of _Life and Letters Today_, has often called . . . attention." I don't have a copy of the German edition of the correspondence where more information is perhaps provided, but that "often" certainly implies that Benjamin had been in touch with Bryher on more than one occasion, presumably in consultation about leaving the German-controlled parts of Europe. Merrill Moore, by the way, I remember from high school anthologies as a psychiatrist poet who wrote sonnets by the thousands. (No kidding--one of his books, titled _M_, consisted of a thousand sonnets. New Directions, among other publishers, brought out his work. I later read that he was one of the psychiatrists who attended to the Frost family.) Was Moore a contact person for refugees in the States? All in all a murky area of history. Ben Friedlander ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 12:09:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: The Advert-Garde I am not a terrific fan of Terry Eagleton's, but his answer to Eric's question ("how do I not become a commercial") is a compelling one. In *The Ideology of the Aesthetics,* Eagleton writes: If they can place your revolutionary artefacts in their banks then that means only one thing: not that you were not iconoclastic or experimental enough, but that either your art was not deeply enough rooted in a revolutionary political movement, or it was, but that this mass movement failed. How idealist to imagine that _art_, all by itself, could resist incorporation! The question of appropriation has to do with politics, not with culture; it is a question of who is winning at any particular time. If _they_ win, continue to govern, then it is no doubt true that there is nothing which they cannot in principle defuse and contain. If _you_ win, they will not be able to appropriate a thing because you will have appropriated them. The one thing which the bourgeoisie cannot incorp- orate is its own political defeat. (372) This of course recalls Benjamin's "and the enemy has not ceased to be victorious" (in "Theses").... As it evidently was for Eric, the "recuperation" of punk was a formative event in my own intellectual trajectory-- a lesson learned. What I didn't know at 16 was the history of similar recuperations--including that of the avant-garde. But I can't think of anyone in G2 who doesn't at this point have the lesson learned by heart: the question is what to do with the knowledge. My thinking is that the indispensable element of the avant-garde project is not "experiment" so much as what that term presupposes: autonomy. The historical a-gs saw the bourgeoisie as the greatest threat to their autonomy; today's avant-garde recognizes the systemic nature of that threat--i.e. the fact that capitalism is more than the sum of "shockable" (concrete) members of the bourgeoisie. From the 50s to the 70s "the establishment" provided a homologous "other." The avant-garde project (which, as I think Paul Hoover suggested in his recent post, is not to be abandoned but further radicalized) cannot honor its internal drive towards autonomy without running into capitalism as its fundamental obstacle. Anti-capitalism is partially inscribed in its history, and generally inscribed in its current conditions of possibility. Anyway, some thoughts--obviously too bluntly, too hurriedly stated. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:26:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Benjamin/Bryher In-Reply-To: <199412010502.AAA115122@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "eric pape" at Nov 30, 94 10:35:31 pm The second sentence of this oft-quoted passage from Benjamin's Theses on the Philosophy of History becomes rather luminous in light of the list's recent speculations on B's "last days": There is no document of civilization that is not at the same time a document of barbarism. *And just as such a document is not free of barbarism, barbarism taints also the manner in which it was transmitted from one owner to another.* [emphasis added] B. is talking, of course, about the way an unreflective historicism tends to hold aloft the "spoils" of the "victors." But the flip side of his thesis, one imagines, wld have to engage the *dis*appearance of the documents of the defeated... steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:11:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: On Walter Benjamin--forwarded from B.F. In-Reply-To: <01HK4709EX6K91VSIQ@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> Merrill Moore was also one of Robert Lowell's psychiatrists: kind of an in-house job (not totally unlike Freud and the "K" family I guess, but STILL....) at that: Lowell's mother worked as Moore's secretary and she and Moore may I think the story is also have been lovers. Odd to link Benjamin to Lowell however tenuously (and not especially edifiying....) thar she blows.... Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:48:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: THE THOUSAND-HEADED BEAST THAT IS CAPITALIST APPROPRIATION; OR, MILES DAVIS' ENDORSEMENT OF GAP . . . . In-Reply-To: <01HK4OMURJ9U9I4Y8Q@asu.edu> What interests me in the discussion of Adorno and Benjamin, a marginal interest mind you, is how it has now become conflated with the issue of how to posit opposition--this in relation to Pape's and Evans' recent posts. Adorno, obviously believed avant-garde/modernism to be a form of resistance/critique of bourgeious (sp) culture; Benjamin (having only a familiarity with "The Work of Art . . .") seems if not to hold the same attitude (though obviously different) at least attuned to way in which technologies of capital had the capacity to empty Modernist culture/critique and re-produce them as so many commodities of exchange. It is interesting how this dilemma is still with us, dead, but still with us. Eagleton is perceptive on this point precisely because he points how those forms of culture/critique are forms produced by capital itself: and punk is an excellent example: if the sex pistols are any indication, their whole "project" was a commodity-form produced to feign resistance, but actually part of it and its processes. It destroyed, but in the name of capital--it simply reinscribed it. This, in order to move towards poetry, is a dilemma many modernists dealt with in their "experiments" with language--that is, attempting to use language in new and unusal ways in order to create/discover new meanings/senses; of course, if it wasn't dadaesque "non-sense," it had to use the language it had at hand. In other words, the modernists were particularly concerned with using an existing language in order to say something different (am I getting this out right?). And this, it seems to me, to be precisely the sort of dilemma that we are faced with in seeking not to become commercials; and perhaps an answer might lie (or lay) in that direction. Maybe not. What I am thinking, though, is that, for instance, writers of the Harlem Renaissance often made use of traditional forms but infused them with issues of otherness, with race matters (to echo Cornell West). This seems a dangerous strategy, but perhaps it is one and one only in an arsenal. Questions, highly underrated, seem also a way of avoiding subsumation to the mouth of this beast that consumes all to itself in order to create its song (ah, what a perversion that is. . . .). Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 15:10:29 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: APB Can anyone provide some info on SAMUEL MENASHE? Penquin Books are reviving a contemporary poetry series they used to run publishing 3-packs of poets. My father (Allen) is in one forthcoming, along with Donald Davie (whom he knows about) and Samuel Menasche. He's never heard of SM, and when he asked me I had to say I had not either but I'd put out an APB if he liked. Wystan Curnow ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 20:49:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: The Advert-Garde In-Reply-To: <01HK52LYBQBG91VXCK@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> Re Steve Evans' citation of Eagleton on cooptation being a function of who does or doesn't win the (a) revolution: seems right in its way, but the Jameson (pomo book) which it ignores seems righter: that something has changed in relation of base to superstructure ("implosion" Jameson calls it after Baudrillard) which alters the status of cultural objects; and (implicitly) that this alteration is not simply solved toot court by the right side winning something. Such that: the alteration ought itself to be part of what the art work takes up (or takes down). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 04:57:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Cybersubstantiation OFFICE MEMO Cybersubstantiation Date: 12/1/94 >From: Newswire Mailing To: IS Daily News Services for Executives Cc: Newswire Mailing Subject: MICROSOFT: Bids to Acquire Catholic Church Date: Tuesday, November 29, 1994 7:16AM MICROSOFT Bids to Acquire Catholic Church By Hank Vorjes VATICAN CITY (AP) -- In a joint press conference in St. Peter's Square this morning, MICROSOFT Corp. and the Vatican announced that the Redmond software giant will acquire the Roman Catholic Church in exchange for an unspecified number of shares of MICROSOFT common stock. If the deal goes through, it will be the first time a computer software company has acquired a major world religion. With the acquisition, Pope John Paul II will become the senior vice-president of the combined company's new Religious Software Division, while MICROSOFT senior vice-presidents Michael Maples and Steven Ballmer will be invested in the College of Cardinals, said MICROSOFT Chairman Bill Gates. "We expect a lot of growth in the religious market in the next five to ten years," said Gates. "The combined resources of MICROSOFT and the Catholic Church will allow us to make religion easier and more fun for a broader range of people." Through the MICROSOFT Network, the company's new on-line service, "we will make the sacraments available on-line for the first time" and revive the popular pre-Counter-Reformation practice of selling indulgences, said Gates. "You can get Communion, confess your sins, receive absolution -- even reduce your time in Purgatory -- all without leaving your home." A new software application, MICROSOFT Church, will include a macro language which you can program to download heavenly graces automatically while you are away from your computer. An estimated 17,000 people attended the announcement in St Peter's Square, watching on a 60-foot screen as comedian Don Novello -- in character as Father Guido Sarducci -- hosted the event, which was broadcast by satellite to 700 sites worldwide. Pope John Paul II said little during the announcement. When Novello chided Gates, "Now I guess you get to wear one of these pointy hats," the crowd roared, but the pontiff's smile seemed strained. The deal grants MICROSOFT exclusive electronic rights to the Bible and the Vatican's prized art collection, which includes works by such masters as Michelangelo and Da Vinci. But critics say MICROSOFT will face stiff challenges if it attempts to limit competitors' access to these key intellectual properties. "The Jewish people invented the look and feel of the holy scriptures," said Rabbi David Gottschalk of Philadelphia. "You take the parting of the Red Sea -- we had that thousands of years before the Catholics came on the scene." But others argue that the Catholic and Jewish faiths both draw on a common Abrahamic heritage. "The Catholic Church has just been more successful in marketing it to a larger audience," notes Notre Dame theologian Father Kenneth Madigan. Over the last 2,000 years, the Catholic Church's market share has increased dramatically, while Judaism, which was the first to offer many of the concepts now touted by Christianity, lags behind. Historically, the Church has a reputation as an aggressive competitor, leading crusades to pressure people to upgrade to Catholicism, and entering into exclusive licensing arrangements in various kingdoms whereby all subjects were instilled with Catholicism, whether or not they planned to use it. Today Christianity is available from several denominations, but the Catholic version is still the most widely used. The Church's mission is to reach "the four corners of the earth," echoing MICROSOFT's vision of "a computer on every desktop and in every home". Gates described MICROSOFT's long-term strategy to develop a scalable religious architecture that will support all religions through emulation. A single core religion will be offered with a choice of interfaces according to the religion desired -- "One religion, a couple of different implementations," said Gates. The MICROSOFT move could spark a wave of mergers and acquisitions, according to Herb Peters, a spokesman for the U.S. Southern Baptist Conference, as other churches scramble to strengthen their position in the increasingly competitive religious market. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 05:06:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: On Walter Benjamin--forwarded from B.F. > >Merrill Moore was also one of Robert Lowell's psychiatrists... And Lowell was Grenier's first important teacher, thus from Benjamin (Walter) to Benjamin (Friedlander) is not such a long route (the Arendt to Mandel road being yet another path).... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 05:57:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Exile on Main Street Steve is quite right about the reiteration of recuperation from one generation to the next. Rae Armantrout once noted that every few years she gets to show another set of students that they did not invent the attitude captured in the Rolling Stones' album "Let It Bleed" (the Stones didn't invent it either). About 10 years ago, McDonald's had a campaign to promote its emerging breakfast menu (the idea of fast food breakfasts being one of the great market expansions of the past 15 years) that used the tag line of DAWN GOOD FOOD which, when I first saw it, felt entirely inspired by the writing of Bob Grenier's *Sentences* (just turn the W upside down), much in the same way that display ads in the 20th Century learned much from the use of the line break of WCW. Look at any newspaper circa 1910 and you will see the difference. Grenier's distance from critical writing since founding This magazine a quarter century ago has always seemed to me an attempt to avoid the exact kind of cooptation that that McDonalds ad already has accomplished for him. Obviously it would be nice to think that you and I are not implicated in the atrocities that occur in Bosnia or Rwanda or East Timor. But we are. We are directly and personally responsible. Each one of us. That has always seemed to me to be the most immediate lesson of the war in Indochina. The problem of dropping out (or any other metaphor of purist distain for the establishment's use of one's soul) is that there is no Out. Out is simply a safe place that In has set aside to keep Out from making too much unpleasant noise. Ultimately, the problem of opposition is not one of how to avoid becoming a commercial. You can't. Trying to do so just wastes time. The question rather seems to be one of positioning what happens when/as you do. Here the most tragic situations have been those who apparently thought it would somehow "solve" something. Brautigan for example. I find it intriguing, to say the least, to see where Kit Robinson, Tom Mandel & James Sherry, three of the poets of my own G1-hood who I take to be among its most serious political thinkers (Sherry's Nuclear Heritage is the most completely & directly political work any of us have accomplished, it seems, a project at once both of ambition and courage) have chosen to work. Certainly not the academy. None disdains the human drama of the marketplace. Sherry currently is employed by Phillip Morris, which ranks somewhat ahead of the Khmer Rouge in total number of fatalities caused over the past 40 years. I've worked on ads that have appeared in the Wall Street Journal, NY Times, Forbes, Fortune and other bastions of liberal thought. And I work for a company whose clients include both houses of congress, and the departments of defense and justice. Not to mention most of the corporations one might hold an attitude about. Including Phillip Morris. I think that what I (or James or Tom or Kit or anyone) gains far more from exposure to that world than from abstinance. This is where I think the alternative approach has many of the same problems I associate with anarchism, which is another mode of the Out position. (Anarchy is not a political system but rather a transitional state...and always one on the way to feudalism it would seem.) I think that we are entering a very dark time politically. And a very dangerous one. Experimentation would at best be a distraction. But who wants to be distracted in a burning building? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 15:28:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Call for panel chairs at Twentieth-Century Literature Conference Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu The U. of Louisville hosts its annual Twentieth-Century Literature Conference Th. Feb. 23-Sat. Feb. 25, 1995. We have just put together the program, and I'm seeking interested folks to chair panels (which typically follow an MLA-type format: 3 papers and discussion, hour-and-a-half). We need chairs in all areas of twentieth-century Anglophone and non-Anglophone lit., theory, and some film; there's a wide range of poetry panels to be chaired. Conference chairs get a reduced rate on registration ($40), and get to come to a good conference. Guest readers/speakers at this year's conference include Charles Bernstein, Susan Rubin Suleiman, Maria Damon, and Robert von Hallberg. The program will include various G-1 and G-2 participants, as well as many others of differing alphabetical and numerical persuasions. If you're interested in coming, please contact me privately at acgold01@ukyvm.louisville.edu, letting me know your areas of interest/expertise. Thanks. Alan Golding ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 16:16:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: Re: Cybersubstantiation In-Reply-To: <199412022107.AA23190@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> from "Ron Silliman" at Dec 2, 94 04:57:18 am I clipped a newspaper piece during the mid-1980s about the Catholic Church actually , yes , offering indulgences via telephone . . . . Sandra Braman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 17:51:15 -0700 Reply-To: mnamna@imap1.asu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <01HK64VWH6DU9I4XXF@asu.edu> Ron Silliman wrote: > The problem of dropping out (or any other metaphor of purist distain for > the establishment's use of one's soul) is that there is no Out. Out is > simply a safe place that In has set aside to keep Out from making too > much unpleasant noise. > > Ultimately, the problem of opposition is not one of how to avoid > becoming a commercial. You can't. Trying to do so just wastes time. The > question rather seems to be one of positioning what happens when/as you > do. Here the most tragic situations have been those who apparently > thought it would somehow "solve" something. Brautigan for example. > > > I think that we are entering a very dark time politically. And a very > dangerous one. Experimentation would at best be a distraction. But who > wants to be distracted in a burning building? > Yes, I agree, that the problem of opposition is not to avoid becoming a commercial but of positioning oneself "when/as" you do. . . but "waste" of time is also what others might consider a useful strategy. I shy from absolutes where opposition is concerned: I don't want to believe, whether it's naive or not, that "ultimately" we all become objects of appropriation. I want to reserve some possibility of . . . . Perhaps the building is burning, but can't we renovate afterwards? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 17:07:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412022242.OAA01131@leland.Stanford.EDU> I'm so glad Ron Silliman brought up Bosnia because I have been horrified by the lack of response on the part of friends, colleagues, etc. I mean: even as we sit around discussing the Spanish Civil War and which radicals did what, we don't protest the Serbs (who really are just like the Nazis) making a Bosnian wear a fez and taunting him just as the Nazis forced Jews to wear the swastika. (read Anthony Lewis's editorial in NY Times today). All that stuff about an "ancient feud we can't do anything about" is what people said about the Nazis too. I refer members of the net to our mutual poetry friend Dubravka Duric, now back in Belgrade, as well as to my former student and now assistant prof of Slavic and Comp lit at U-Washington Seattle, Gordana Crnkovic, who is half Serb, half Croatian and has strong feelings as to what we as Americans might do Gordana (Goga) will be speaking at MLA on the East-european panel I've organized for Comp Lit--along with Ewa and Krzystof Ziarek and Marcel Cornis-Pops. Would any of you like to get together with Goga at MLA?. What ideas for action do others have, now that our government, the UN, and NAtO have totally sold out? Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 21:58:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412022211.RAA98409@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Ron Silliman" at Dec 2, 94 05:57:36 am I hate to be always being such the dissertator, returning to the "Objectivists" so obsessively, but Silliman's "burning building" reminds me of Oppen's statement from "The Mind's Own Place": "There are situations which cannot honorably be met by art, and surely no one need fiddle precisely at the moment that the house next door is burning. If one goes on to imagine a direct call for help, then surely to refuse it would be a kind of treason to one's neighbors. Or so I think. But bad fiddling could hardly help, and similarly the question can only be whether one intends, at a given time,to write poetry or not." Clearly, in Oppen's case, the "or not" has real weight. And since our general late captitalist malaise *does* seem to be taking an even more sinister turn these days, when do we reach the point where we find ourselves imagining(?) that "direct call for help"? Everybody has to answer that one on their own i suppose. Oppen, for his part, doesn't presume to dictate a response. As for what art *can* do, he suggests that "the definition of the good life is necessarily an aesthetic definition" & quotes William Stafford about the poet trying "to find what the world is trying to be." Also suggests that "it is possible that a world without art is simply and flatly uninhabitable." steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 10:14:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Olson on net "Outward" i.e. a gesture. there is no outward; every vector has a direction. Please remember how often the explorers of the world were in fact rapacious, murderers. Looking for blood to shed. Every direction finds a terminus, arrow buried in target, and once arrived the party starts. I've quoted to the list, and now again, Hugh of St. Victor: It is a great source of virtue for the mind to learn, bit by bit, first to change about in visible and transitory things, in order then afterwards to relinquish them altogether. One who finds his homeland sweet is still a tender beginner; the one to whom every soil is as his native land is already strong; but perfect is one to whom the entire world is a place of exile. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 16:51:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: experiwhat? In-Reply-To: <199412030636.BAA50737@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Marjorie Perloff" at Dec 2, 94 05:07:20 pm Lab Note yesterday at 4:15 something unseen and linguistic was like that still live frog I saw once flopping openly out w/ a slit belly onto the cold tile floor ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 22:09:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Guy Debord Commits Suicide X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET --Boundary (ID O3lfGI1F5OAu3opGgZ+Ogg) Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII PARIS (AP) -- Guy Debord, an avant-garde essayist who influenced the upheavals of French society in the late 1960s, has committed suicide. He was 62. Town officials in the village of Champot where Debord lived announced an investigation Thursday into the suicide. No details about how Debord took his life Wednesday were disclosed. Little-known outside France, Debord denounced what he called ``the show-biz society'' and declared that performing arts should be based on powerful emotions, passions and sexual desire. His ideas were influential among theoreticians and essayists who achieved prominence in the May 1968 student-led cultural revolt that shook French society. ******* Ben Friedlander passed this bulletin on to me from a clarinet list. I had not yet heard about Debord's death. Having just read the new and worthwhile translation of The Society of the Spectacle for my current graduate seminar, Debord has been very much on my mind. (The description of his work in the notice is quite odd.) --Boundary (ID O3lfGI1F5OAu3opGgZ+Ogg)-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 22:56:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Ex(it) SITU In-Reply-To: <199412022045.PAA12139@sarah.albany.edu> from "Ron Silliman" at Dec 2, 94 05:57:36 am On Wednesday Guy Debord decided to take a most final early retirement from this scene. "Doctor of Nothing," he called himself & was a poet, painter, film-maker, essayist, agitator, theoretician, founder of the IS (the Situationist International). Without his work, without the leaven of his thought, what is now called "les evenements de soixante-huit" i.e. the French part of the '68 uprising, would have been a dour affair. There will be ample time for considered panegyrics, appraisals of The Society of the Spectacle, & the business as usual of enshrinement & auto-da-fe. Tonight's the time for a joyous not-so-finnicky wake, with a bottle of red wine & his last book,a very unconsidered & hilarious PANEGYRIQUE, in which he writes of his life-long rabelaisian penchants: "What I've done best is drink... I, who have had to read so often the most extravagent lies & insinuations concerning myself, or the most unjust critiques, am very surprised that thirty years & more have gone by all in all without a single one of those malcontents having tried, even implicitly, to use my drunkeness as an argument against my scandalous ideas." Tomorrow we'll reread the books, look again at the films, re-argue his definitions of "situation," "derive," "detournement," "decomposition." Because, to "deturn" a famous line, "le siecle sera Debordian ou ne sera pas." ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | Dept. of English | "La poesie ne s'impose plus, elle s'expose." SUNY Albany | Paul Celan Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | email: | "He who leaves a trace, leaves an abcess." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| Henri Michaux ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 21:18:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: USA/UN/NATO Wash Their Hands Of Bosnia. . . . But They Don't Come Clean. . . . X-To: Marjorie Perloff In-Reply-To: <01HK6MIMUJB69I52PF@asu.edu> On Fri, 2 Dec 1994, Marjorie Perloff wrote: > What ideas for action do others have, now that our government, the UN, > and NAtO have totally sold out? > Silly as it might be, stating our solidarity with Bosnia and lodging our disagreement with the course of action (lack thereof) the US has taken would be a good start. There has been terribly little of either from artists, academics . . . at least that I've seen. Also, I'm not above inserting, when ever and where ever the opportunity presents itself, a reminder that there is a war in Europe--and that it does affect us, as has been dramatically stated here. What is our role--if any--as artists/academics (or whatever) in speaking out against such crimes? I don't want to speak for anyone but myself, but I feel I have a responsibility, if only to myself, to say SOMETHING when I am able. And, as an artist/academic, I have that privilege. I don't mind using it. For What It's Worth, Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 11:29:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Hoover x350 Subject: politics Glad to see Ron's post re: Exile on Main Street. There certainly is no "out" and you don't have to be Marxist to see it. I had the pleasure to hear a lecture by Amiri Baraka yesterday: "So that since the U.S. is an imperialist country, with a monopoly capitalist economic base, the institutions raised on that base, as well as the philosophies expressed within them, are in the main expressions of imperialism." The only thing that matters is the economic base, and without the moderating influence of a competing morality such as the church or local community, our economic life is focused on selfishness. It is in the interest of consumerism, therefore, to destroy traditional values including religious and/or ethnic values ("peasant traditions" in WCW's "For Elsie"). Relativism and indeterminacy (and alas the well-meaning avant-garde) apparently collaborate in this. Like Lew Daly (apparently), I was raised in a German pietist tradition that argued against material possession and chose separation from the world. This separation worked primarily on the symbolic level, since inevitably one must trade with "Das English" as the early Brethren & Amish called them. My interest in poetry derives from that background. Good works, if not transcendence, through writing. But the desire for fame and office brings dominance back in, and we become little imperialists. Baraka was wonderful to hear and full of satiric fire. But the talk was given in an institutional setting (my working-class arts college in Chicago) on a grant from the Lilly Foundation and his fee for the day was $5,000. We all work out of an economic base that extends to poetic value. Inevitably, one poet is perceived to be "worth more" than another. Susan Howe and Nathaniel Mackey rise; someone else falls. We are currency, and what else is new? It is possible to interpret multiculturalism as further ghettoization funded by the MacArthur and other foundations; it is masked, however, as "community building." Their goal is to bring enough marginal people into the high-tech middle class that revolution will not seem necessary. Meanwhile, as Andrei Codrescu wrote in a recent essay, the real revolution, the triumph of global capitalism, continues apace. The American peasant, Williams saw in horror, has no traditions. Except perhaps his/her "television heritage." The great ideological disaster of the last 25 years has been separatism. But how are potentially conflicting peasant traditions to live together? By cruising the same mall or watching an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie? Yes. There will be two future cultures: those who primarily watch TV and those who primarily work in front of a computer screen. Everything will be mediated by light. For high art, one goes out to a "film." Last night on TV (I dropped my cable and really miss it) that an orthodox rabbi from california likes to surf: good eye candy but under it a very cheap laugh. TV despises dignity, and consumerism hates seriousness. Peasant traditions still have some dignity left. We observe this dignity on PBS sponsored by some foundation. We are relieved and a little surprised that blood sacrifice of llamas still occurs in Bolivia. Disturbed by the violence, we turn to a sitcom. We feel responsible for Bosnia because we imagine that we might turn our military dominance toward good works. But we are not at all in the post-colonial age. The control is still there, just not the troops. Nothing happens in Bosnia because powerful interests are a lot more committed to GATT, NAFTA, and consolidating global capitalism. They will deal with Bosnia only when it threatens trade, as we saw in the Gulf War. Paul Hoover Paul.Hoover@mail.colum.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 14:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Conte Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: politics The list might be interested to know of a compelling account of the Bosnian crisis--other than _Zlata's Diary_--by Slovenian poet Ales Debeljak, _Twilight of the Idols: Recollections of a Lost Yugoslavia_ (published by White Pine Press, Fredonia, NY). Ales, who read this past fall in Buffalo, raises a number of questions about our intellectual commitment to multiculturalism from the perspective of a society where tolerence for other religious and ethnic identities has utterly collapsed. I recommend the book; too bad it hasn't sold (i.e. been promoted) as well as the cherubic Zlata. Joseph Conte ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 19:09:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: politics In-Reply-To: <199412041920.AA22206@panix3.panix.com> I would also like to recommend an issue/imprint of _Lusitania_ from 1993, For Za Sarajevo, with a great number of texts and articles, as well as Lebbeus Woods' War and Architecture; both are dual-language, by the way. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 20:26:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412022211.AA19112@panix.com> Long a proponent of the issues of engagement which Ron raises as opposed to the Senecan views espoused elsewhere, here, and in art circles in general about purity of purpose, I must say that I have gone from bad employer to worse. My current job is at Deutsche Bank has put me in the position of having to hold contradictory ideas more than ever (not that I would ever buy a Mercedes). Acting in the drama has always been for me more amusing. But social change, being inevitable, requires less effort on the part of the individual that most suppose. For example, many of you know about a credit card company called Working Assets, an employee owned corporation that returns a portion of its income to not for profit organizations chosen by the people who use the credit card. Now WA is getting into the phone business. Along with my new phone company goes several free calls a month to a politician: the dialectic in action. Here they have given us credit cards to control us and happily control goes both ways. This bisynchronous control is engagement. It is also the risk that many artists and thinkers will not take. If we do not vote with guns, we may vote with our bank accounts. I suggest that Marjorie, Ron, and others who wish a point of view to be organized as well as Pat Robertson and IMF/World Bank need to start thinking about contemporary notions of what organization means. NOT just passing information back and forth... The separation of information and meaning has given us new credentials. If we choose to use them we may make a mistake. If we choose not to use them we may not make much of anything. Thanks Ron for the opportunity to open this issue. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 21:07:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jena Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street > Acting in the drama has always been for me more amusing. But social > change, being inevitable, requires less effort on the part of the > individual that most suppose. For example, many of you know about a > credit card company called Working Assets, an employee owned corporation > that returns a portion of its income to not for profit organizations > chosen by the people who use the credit card. > > Now WA is getting into the phone business. Along with my new phone > company goes several free calls a month to a politician: the dialectic in > action. Here they have given us credit cards to control us and happily > control goes both ways. This bisynchronous control is engagement. It is > also the risk that many artists and thinkers will not take. I would argue that "social change"/exchange is a bit more complicated than what a company like Working Assets would like its customers to think. I certainly like the idea of giving money to not for profits and getting free calls to politicians. However, Working Assets uses Sprint long distance lines. Right now Sprint is up before the NLRB on unfair labor charges. Sprint fired 235 Latina workers a week before they were going to vote in a union representation election (this is happening in San Francisco). If one really wants to take part in the "bisychronous control" that the idea of organized labor is built around, one will use AT&T, the only phone company that's allowed its workers to unionize. > > If we do not vote with guns, we may vote with our bank accounts. I suggest > that Marjorie, Ron, and others who wish a point of view to be > organized as well as Pat Robertson and IMF/World Bank need to start thinking > about contemporary notions of what organization means. NOT just passing > information back and forth... Somehow this idea of "voting" through a particular consumer activity does not strike me as a gratifying political efficacy. Perhaps this is because I don't really have a bank account worth mentioning. I guess I'll have to figure something out with words. Jena Osman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 19:46:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <01HK98OORP4291W8UJ@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> This is probably mendacious, but free phone time to the politician of your choice (him/her/ur self? or?) reminds me uncomfortably of Baudrillard on the poll. otoh purity surely isn't worth much. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 07:16:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: politics In-Reply-To: <01HK8SUAQ4XUANBR4B@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> Just a note, as I'm not certain if Paul Hoover's citation of the setting and fee for Amiri Baraka's lecture was a criticism of Baraka or the institution or just the state of the world. This is just to say that it is important, as Silliman notes, where one works, and where one strikes out for position or opposition. As a former participant in the Tucson Poetry Festival in Arizona, I helped arrange for Baraka to read and lecture, and the fee was far less (less than one fifth) of $5,000. The setting was not institutional (or at least not a big institution like a university or museum, rather a site rented a cut-rate by a small non-profit group in which no one is paid), the audience was about 300 for the reading; an overflow crowd heard the lecture. I believe that art/culture has a role to play in the community, and that unfortunately academic/institutional settings act as a filter which do not allow that role to be played. That is but one reason why public reading series large & small, & independent presses, are so important. Not that they can't be made into a commercial, but new ones come along all the time and the positioning/oppositioning goes on. charles ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 07:26:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <01HK9B3I3M8IANBRCI@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> Jena Osman writes "I would argue that "social change"/exchange is a bit more complicated than what a company like Working Assets would like its customers to think. I certainly like the idea of giving money to not for profits and getting free calls to politicians. However, Working Assets uses Sprint long distance lines. Right now Sprint is up before the NLRB on unfair labor charges. Sprint fired 235 Latina workers a week before they were going to vote in a union representation election (this is happening in San Francisco)." It is my understanding that Working Assets "leases" lines from Sprint. While I agree that social change & exchange is quite complicated and that there is likely no uncompromised position, I think it likely that everyone in this forum, as well as all commercial companies in America, either purchase or lease products or services from businesses and other corporate entities whose ethics could (and should) be questioned. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 09:05:40 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Dec 1994 07:26:17 -0600 from I'm wondering if a connection can be made between the two recent threads-- the earlier discussion of identification and identity within the poetry world and the more recent thread on politics. The first discussion seemed at times poignant, as members of various generations sought to identify themselves and place themselves in positions of prominence--with laments about displacement and loss of identity for some. Underlying the discussion was the reality that the "politics" of poetry is certainly pre-democratic, primarily feudal or courtly. I do not think that the truly prized commodity is money, prizes, etc. but rather prestige or honor-- and while one could use a market metaphor for this, the true operating system of poetry is not even as democratic as a market.The discussion of generational names, for instance, seemed to veer between a marketing strategy on the one hand and a rather heartfelt and therefore poignant desire for simple recognition -- "je veux qu'on me distingue". which is very far below Rimbaud's "je est un autre."The most revolutionary platform I could imagine for our poetry would be a return to pseudepigraphia and anonymity. Could the failure of poetry in our time to have a major audience on the scale Whitman dreamed of have anything to do with the disconnection between the office politics of the poetry world (feudal, courtier) and the larger society in which we live and function? All best, Rodger Kamenetz enrodg@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 11:03:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412051537.KAA17126@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Rodger Kamenetz wrote: > Could the failure of poetry in our time to have a major audience > on the scale Whitman dreamed of have anything to do with the disconnection > between the office politics of the poetry world (feudal, courtier) and > the larger society in which we live and function? Isn't it pretty to think so? By which I mean, wouldn't it be nice if what happened w/in "the poetry world" (which one?) and what happened in "the larger society" (again) were married? Then we wouldn't have to wait so long to find ourselves important, w/ "a major audience," an audience-of-scale. Alas, there are two delightful minors on my comfortable suburban street who call out when I walk by, "Hello, Poetry Man!" because they just love poetry, it's their favorite subject in school (4th grade), and they depress me no end. By the time they make it through high school, I suspect, they'll know the same two things about poetry my freshmen do: 1) I don't understand it. 2) I don't like it. And when some stray shmuck asks them, at the end of a survey course, to choose the poem that's given them the most pleasure this semester and apply Zukofsky's "Test of Poetry" to it--just what _were_ its pleasures in sight, sound, & intellection--they'll be baffled. Like, no one's asked them about pleasure since fourth grade. Like, don't you want me to tell you what it MEANS? If there's a stumbling block placed in their path, we didn't put it there. EMS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 10:20:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Shake Those Dirty Hands I appreciate the candor with which James Sherry and Ron Silliman have recently discussed their "positions" vis-a-vis corporate power, but I am as suspicious of the subjective titillations of "holding contradictory ideas" (which cd easily mean: deceiving myself about the meaning of my actions) as I am of fantasies of a "pure outside." Ron suggests that he and James and Kit Robinson and Tom Mandel have "gained more" from their en- gagements with corporate capitalism than they would have from "abstaining" from the "human drama of the marketplace." Since I gather that Ron has "gains" of other than a financial sort in mind when he writes this, I would be interested in knowing more about these gains. Is it a matter of gathering intelligence (so to speak) that informs one's oppositional work--one's poetic practice, one's political practice as a citizen, one's critique? Is it a matter of actually exercising counter-agency *within* the arena of corporate power, or of obedience in one domain being converted into dissidence in another? I have to admit that the politics of occupational complicity do not strike me as especially viable--which is another way, I guess, of saying that the contradictions incurred along Ron and Jame's way(s) don't strike me as strongly "positioned" ones. (By the way, I intend no disrespect to the personal resonance such contradictions may have for the few people who experience them.) Nor do the "dialectics of the credit card" go very far toward redressing, eg., North-South relations. There seems to me a difference between saying: (1) our attempt to curtail or abolish the power of capital has evidently failed, and the available "choices"--given this failure--are for the most part unacceptable ones that I nevertheless have to accept; and (2) my ability to actualize a radically ungeneralizable trajectory is in fact a measure of my political acuity and a sign of my superiority to those who "abstain" from "complicity." The vacuity of "dropping out" is not proof of the acuity of checking in. Both smack of extreme voluntarism in light of the *structural* exclusions of global capitalism. One final point, the implicit contrast in Ron's defense of market coercion (qua human drama) is to academia. Not overlooking the structural connections between the corporations and the universities, it does seem worthwhile to point out the obvious fact that whereas the corporations have *no* interest in Ron's or anyone else's poetic practice, the universities do (and where that interest is not pursued, it can at least be raised; which is not possible within the context of Philip Morris, etc.). Having said all of this, I remain interested in reading more about Jame's "rethinking" of organization, and in seeing more from Ron about the "gains" of dirtying one's hands (one must adjust that metaphor, I think, in light of the great keyboard of techno-capitalism: clean hands?). Steve Evans ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 12:32:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Lavender Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street >>Like, no one's asked them about pleasure since fourth grade. Like, don't you want me to tell you what it MEANS?<< Though surely pleasures are learned as rigorously as discursive genres. A poet recently told me he didn't read poetry for pleasure. "I mean lets face it," he said, "when it comes to pleasure, enjoyment, relaxation, I'd rather watch Terminator." There are pleasures that poetry strives to avoid, to unlearn, to counter. And as for the decline in readership, In Memorium was the last bestseller, which which the queen kept on her bedside table, and maybe that's why. The market isn't as democratic as it appears. I don't have any problem with reading poetry out of a sense of duty or whatever. Our only subject here has been ethics. Like the song from my youth said, "I feel like I owe it to someone." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:05:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Exile Dear Tom: As if we are in exile, but also at home there. Yes. Giorgio Agamben, discussing the work of Robert Walser, writes: The Irreperable is the monogram that Walser's writing engraves into things. Irreperable means that these things are consigned without remedy to their being-thus, that they are precisely and only their *thus* (nothing is more foreign to Walser than the pretense of being other than what one is) [you could add Emerson here, too]; but irreperable also means that for them there is literally no shelter possible, that in their being-thus they are absolutley exposed, absolutely abandoned. To recognize there is no shelter other than our own responsibility (Agamben says our own "possibility or potentiality") and that neither lamentation nor praise is the issue is to be at home. Otherwise, home turns into in a tank named "Relations of Production" rolling toward Tiananmen Square. Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:17:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: prayer I forced my students to have a minute of silent prayer today. They hated me for it, something I greatly appreciated. But as to whether it makes a difference... mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 12:39:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: prayer X-To: Mark Wallace In-Reply-To: <01HKA8TYJTGI9I4UAB@asu.edu> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Mark Wallace wrote: > I forced my students to have a minute of silent prayer today. > > They hated me for it, something I greatly appreciated. > > But as to whether it makes a difference... > Hm. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:49:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Henry Subject: Re: Shake Those Dirty Hands >One final point, the implicit contrast in Ron's defense >of market coercion (qua human drama) is to academia. Not >overlooking the structural connections between the corporations >and the universities, it does seem worthwhile to point out >the obvious fact that whereas the corporations have *no* >interest in Ron's or anyone else's poetic practice, the >universities do (and where that interest is not pursued, >it can at least be raised; which is not possible within >the context of Philip Morris, etc.). However, for those of us who are employed by academic insitutions to do non-academic work (or at least work not related to our poetic practice), the difference betwen the two brands of corporations is negligible. And, cynically perhaps, I have to wonder whether large academic/research institutions' interest in "Literature" or "Art" really goes much deeper than the decorative -- do university trustees and administrators see poets (esp. in all the proliferating Creative Writing programs around the U.S.) as much more than status-symbols, like famous works of visual art in lobbies of major corporations or sponsor-blurbs on PBS specials? With the millions being poured into huge brick biotech and supercomputing facilities rising all around the margins of campus and frequently making national headlines, instances such as Bob Perelman's lecture here last year (attended by 25 people?) or John Ashbery reading this coming Wednesday, seem positively quaint, and hardly something in which the corporate university is "interested." --Ron Henry (rgh3@cornell.edu) Olin Library, Cornell Univ. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:08:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: politics X-To: Paul Hoover x350 In-Reply-To: <01HK8QQ2WWPE9I5BBF@asu.edu> On Sun, 4 Dec 1994, Paul Hoover x350 wrote: > Amiri Baraka: "So that since the U.S. is an imperialist country, with a monopoly capitalist economic base,the institutions raised on that base, as well as the philosophies expressed within them, are in the main expressions of imperialism." Yes, but isn't this a much too simple reduction, a too regressive determinism, a too restrictive vulgar marxism? If the capitalist econo-political structures determine expressions congruent to itself where do individual and collective rejections of those expressions come from? Those structures, too, are infused with an--often perverted--forms of political liberty and oppositional expression. Hoover: > It is possible to interpret multiculturalism as further ghettoization > funded by the MacArthur and other foundations; it is masked, > however, as "community building." Their goal is to bring enough marginal > people into the high-tech middle class that revolution will not seem > necessary. Yes, perhaps, but this rejection of "community building" and its negative association with separatism--endowed or not--is itself a refusal of the "radical" political impulses motivating multiculturalism--I think of Gloria Anzuldua, here. Infusing extant political structures with excluded "others" is "radical," and if that is not accomplished through "revolution" from without but from within does that make it any less "revolutionary"? This assumes, of course, that rather than infusing extant political structures and parties with "minorities" (a non-essentialized description, if you please) that "difference" actually becomes a part of them. . . . "La La" T.S. Eliot > We feel responsible for Bosnia because we imagine that we might turn our > military dominance toward good works. But we are not at all in the > post-colonial age. The control is still there, just not the troops. > Nothing happens in Bosnia because powerful interests are a lot > more committed to GATT, NAFTA, and consolidating global capitalism. They > will deal with Bosnia only when it threatens trade, as we saw in the Gulf > War. No, I don't feel responsible for Bosnia--or anything else for that matter--because we can exercise military power there as a form of self-gratifying sentimentalized "good works" (no offense intened here). I have always been uncomfortable calling for the use of such violence to influence the situation--as much as I agreed with Bosnia's call to let it defend itself. I believe in responsibly exercising my own ability to link my fate to others--if I were in a situation where I was being shelled I hope someone would seek to help me in what ever way they could. Richard Rorty's Contingency, Irony and Solidarity is useful on this point: suggesting that the basis of human solidarity is actually suffering, that this common experience should be enough to bind us. If I see someone suffering I know it could just as easily be me . . . . What ever, Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 13:27:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Bernadette Mayer The following letter was recently sent out by The Poetry Center. If this message has already been posted to the list I apologize for the duplication. November 10, 1994 Dear Friend, Bernadette Mayer was hospitalized on October 11th for intracerebral bleeding--equivalent to a stroke. She underwent neurosurgery and is presently reovering. At the moment she is unable to speak or write. Due to the seriousness of her illness, it's not clear when she will be completely rehabilitated. Bernadette needs your support to help pay her rent, phone bills, utilities, any expenses Medicaid won't cover and for the care of her three children. Any financial gift you can contribute will help her through this difficult time and allow Bernadette to concentrate on regaining her health. An important and repected poet, Bernadette has been involved in the New York City poetry community for many years. She served as director of the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church from 1980-84 and since then she has lead numerous writing workshops at the Project and at The New School for Social Research. Bernadette has published fifteen books of poetry and prose, recently, _A Bernadette Mayer Reader_ (New Directions 1992) and _The Desires of Mothers to Please Others in Letters_ (Hard Press 1994). Gifts to Bernadette'sfund are tax-deductable. Please make contribution checks payable to: Girono Poetry Systems/The Bernadette Mayer Fund Giorno Poetry Systems 222 Bowery New York, NY 10012 Sincerely, The Poetry Center Staff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:10:06 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Hoover x350 Subject: vulgar marxism To: Jeffrey Timmons I thought someone might comment on Baraka's "vulgar marxism." Interesting phrase, "vulgar marxism," suggesting that its basic concepts are to be discredited because we are now so much more sophisticated. Do you imagine that the economic base is NOT a dominant concern? That the United States, along with G7 (the only "G" force that really matters, with regard to G1/G2 discussion) does NOT manage world affairs? As for Baraka's fee, it's of course a comment on the state of the world and ironies of value. If the Lilly Foundation has $5,000 for a visiting lecturer/poet, it might as well go to him. There were perhaps 80 people in the auditorium, so the foundation paid about $60 a head. There was, however, a television camera recording the event, conceivably the most important member of the audience. As soon as the applause died down, a young man stood up and began to denounce the hypocrisy of the conference--I believe because he supports "vulgar marxism" and sees that the university sponsorship of such statements as Baraka's makes them absurd. This young man wrote a book called "Bomb the Suburbs." I learned from him earlier that he attended Oberlin as an undergraduate, and something rings absurd about that, too. The vulgar marxist has been replaced by the chardonnay marxist. In the 80s even revolution went upscale. I'm not saying I'm not part of it; if Baraka is correct, everyone is. Market forces are so convincing that if you produce a ragged-looking literary magazine, as was the style in the late 60s, that too is designed for audience appeal. One thing for sure: we live in a video serfdom. If you don't "mach schau" (make show), as the early Beatles fans in Berlin demanded of the fledgling group, you're starting to disappear. To quote the character Egon in Ghostbusters, "Text is dead." It's a new marketplace, with new technologies, and this requires a new literature. Those on this listserve group are of the economy that stares into computer screens-- more text oriented. Did you know that for the last two or three years they have had performance poetry events at the Associated Writing Programs conference? This year there's even a "stand up" night. On the other hand, a more courtly literature still exists, and it is powerful. The real problem is to find a literature of any kind, courtly or vulgar, of intelligence and spirit. Back in this recent series, Don Byrd made a very good comment about avant-garde poetry being the "mainstream" historically, especially if you begin with romanticism. In a bookstore today, I spent a lot of time reading selections from various poets including one who was a National Book Award winner. It was awfully dreary reading. Embarrassing even. But I could clearly see the truth of Don Byrd's premise. Paul Hoover (paul.hoover@mail.colum.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:17:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kat Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 2 Dec 1994 17:07:20 -0800 from I could write reams about problems with recuperating radicals+forgetting the formidable force of the racist Right, but. . . For the moment, for the sake of utility and economy, let me add a bit of biblio. to the pointer to the wonderful Lusitania issue. 1). to disabuse one of the "long history of ethnic hatreds," see BOSNIA: A SHORT HISTORY by Noel Malcolm, Papermac (Macmillan, 1994) or THE MUSLIMS OF BOSNIA-HERZEGOVINA, ed., Mark Pinson (Harvard, 1994) 2). artistic and analytic responses, one volume; WHY BOSNIA? WRITINGS ON THE BALKAN WARS, ed. Rabia Ali & Lawrence Lifschultz (Stony Creek, CT, Pamph leteers Press, 1993) 3). for the economic/political history of Yugoslavia breaking up, THE DESTRUCTION OF YUGOSLAVIA, by Branka Magas (Verso, 1993); Magas's essays appeared in New Left Review before the split of that group over Yougslavia; also see AGAINST THE CURRENT #52 for Magas on the Fascist Serbian state. 4). for general treatments of post-Soviet Yugoslavia and the bending of Yugoslavia to Western consumerism and nationalism (not to suggest a causal connection; humphf!), see Stjepan G. Mestrovic's THE BALKANIZATION OF THE WEST: THE CONFLUENCE OF POSTMODERNISM AND POSTCOMMUNISM (Routledge, 199 and Sabrina P. Ramet, SOCIAL CURRENTS IN EASTERN EUROPE (Duke, 1991) Sabrina Ramet, who before a physical change of sex wrote as Pedro Ramet, along with Slavoj Zizek(but different from him in many ways) wrote volumes of analysis and predictions on the results and ramifications of the breakup of Yugo. There is a great deal to read on this crisis; there is also a great deal more to do. I have the numbers of some folks in UK who are seriously active and engaged as politicians and writers. If anyone is interested, I can add these to the net. More directly, does anyone know the opera SARAJEVO which had its London-- and I believe only--premier this past August. The composer,Nigel Osborne, should be persuaded to launch it here (perhaps funded is a better word/ concept here than persuaded). I saw this magnificent opera. It is based on and "samples" Euripides' WOMEN OF TROY and CNN with lots of life in between. Does anyone know about the fate of this opera? Does anyone know how/whether such a project of launching this somewhere here can be/is being undertaken? It isn't, after all, an opera that would benefit from the $$$$ machines needed for Pavarotti, &tc. Anyway, a response to this query would be appreciated, though I am not the one to know the next step in this particular avenue. Last note, there are several most important and engaging newsboards on the internet re: former Yugoslavia and peace groups that still persist on the ground there. I was in Croatia summer of '93, and I can say that peace is far from assured. In fact, as with Chamberlain in Sudentenland, the cards are set to fall with the appeasements and concessions. Peace does not come from facing down aggression with "neutrality." What to do? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:43:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Out/onomous I'm a bit curious about something I've picked up as a kind of cerebral distinction (as opposed to actual/real or even possible distinction) between out and autonomous. It appears that many of us agree that there is no out: Tom Mandel's: >"Outward" i.e. a gesture. there is no outward; every vector has a >direction. Yet the meta-metaphysics envolved in: > perfect is one to whom the entire > world is a place of exile. appears to me to be an inverted origin and re-invigorates a kind of clearing, a place where metaphysics can and cannot take place....a straddle.... & Steve Evan's: >My thinking is that the indispensable element of the avant-garde >project is not "experiment" so much as what that term presupposes: >autonomy. and the trenchant: >The vacuity of "dropping out" is not proof of the acuity of >checking in. Both smack of extreme voluntarism in light of >the *structural* exclusions of global capitalism. Steve's repositioning of the "avant-garde" project as a social (autonomous) rather than scientific, or theoretical (exterior) is important. However, what I'm not sure of here is the relationship of both "out" to "auto" -nomy in the face of the "structural exclusions of global capitalism." I've been reading Joan Cock's *The Oppositional Imagination* the last few days, finding myself under the transformative power of a searing critique, and while I don't pretend to be as fluid or nearly as capable as she, I do find many common concerns; one of which I believe would be that it is very hard to speak of "autonomous" or "out" in the above senses. In the midst of a critique of Said's, Gramschi's, William's and Foucault's models of "dominative power" she writes: "There is...a vitality to power at the molecular level and a fixity to it at the grand one, so that approaching it theoretically from the bottom is the surer way not to miss its variations, reversals, and diversions. And when it comes to the local detail, one must be ready, if not quite for anything, at least for many unpredictable and surprising things. Whatever the great situation, this particular one, being particular, might bend in all sorts of ways - towards some new and intensified form of the power prevailing on the grand scale, or towards some humbled version of it, or towards its deterioration, or towards its inversion." - p 49 In relation to both Steve and Tom, I'm gleaning two things from this quote: One, that the propositions of "structural exclusion of global capitalism" and "the world is a place of exile" both in-state forms of world (though geo-physically with "global") that appear on the surface to refute an outside while running the risk of imposing an outside. Both "structural exclusion of global capitalism" and the world of exile seem to run the risk, of proposing an absolute and of reifying hegemony. That in fact "the matrices of transformation" that poetry can involve are "constant modifications" (the *constantly* burning house), both internal and external, "local" and "geo-political" power fluxes which constantly undo the absolute "world", or "globe." And Two, exile and exclusion are impossible in this undoing and with this impossibility, "out" and "auto," though intended differently, are actually more similar in their exclusivity than not. (In this, there is no "closet" either.) I'd like to tease this out further but I have to go out and pick up my wife. Patrick Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:08:27 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: Shake Those Dirty Hands In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Dec 1994 10:20:02 EST from Certainly Eagleton's point (and y'all's) is well taken. Which is why the whole sell out question, to corporate america or to academia,is a non-question. Doesn't it imply at some point we were not all already sold? Mostly we've been engaged in the politics of identity...Does it matter, to use use Ron's perfectly apt metaphor, in what room you stand as the building burns down? What I've been asking is in fact a formal question. Which is, can we imagine a form which resists domination? The answer is of course, as we have all noted here, at length, that it is an impossible question. There is no outside, etc...But just because it is an impossible question, I don't believe that makes it any less important...Perhaps more so. What determines oppositional form? Only if we imagine a constellation of effects (B's word) can we imagine oppositional form. Only if we imagine that there is a within to the art work; a within that functions semi-autonomously, can we imagine an art work that resists incorporation. Because of course never can any art work resist entirely incorporation. There must always be aspects that in effect support domination. The question becomes is there any that are oppositional. We have never been able to imagine totally oppositional art. It never happened. Not even to Milton. The question becomes then not a matter of identity, ie, am I Marxist enough to be a poet, but of form. But we haven't avoided Ron's final image, ie, the distraction in the burning building. By positing only formal resistence, do we not risk Formalism? How great of a risk is that, truly? Also, we have Marjorie's question. If our resistence is not simply a matter of technique, a matter of how we put together our art, then what can we do? The question, also, is impossible, but is the most important question anyone has asked here: What can we do? Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:52:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412051540.AA03116@panix2.panix.com> To Kamenetz' Rimbaud citation I add "Que je suis rentier." Alas for those who'd equate poetry with a humane politics. Considering Whitman's attitude toward Native Americans. Dickinson's difficulty leaving the house. Basho's spying for the emperor. Hafiz sucking up at the court. Of course Pound, Yeats, and Eliot. As Ron points out politics is not where it is represented to be. And further what is error free politics but attitude. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:03:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Shake Those Dirty Hands In-Reply-To: <199412051748.AA19253@panix2.panix.com> Steve Evans "well reasoned" response is blistered with the attempt to make himself whole by thinking about it. I think that I and possible Ron although I don't want to speak for him, wish to contrast an exclusionary politics with an inclusive one which we all participate in as Charles Alexander points out. Steve as usual makes excellent points within the confines he has established. My position vis a vis corporations is the recognition that I work for them and that academic life would provide distance from them but does not sever the relationship. How close do you want to get? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412060147.AA19298@panix.com> Charles Bernstein and I were in Belgrade a few weeks before the civil war broke out. Belgrade has a large mall of coffee houses running down its middle. By day and by night the coffee houses were overflowing with unemployed young men between the ages of 18 & 25 who were talking about how it might be possible to get some money by fightingin this war and old men talking about how it might be possible to use them to do so. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:16:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Out/onomous In-Reply-To: <199412060147.AA10853@panix3.panix.com> I quote someone who would not wish to be quoted here. "There is no outside or inside either." On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Patrick Phillips wrote: > I'm a bit curious about something I've picked up as a kind of cerebral > distinction (as opposed to actual/real or even possible distinction) > between out and autonomous. > > It appears that many of us agree that there is no out: > > Tom Mandel's: > > >"Outward" i.e. a gesture. there is no outward; every vector has a > >direction. > > Yet the meta-metaphysics envolved in: > > > perfect is one to whom the entire > > world is a place of exile. > > appears to me to be an inverted origin and re-invigorates a kind of > clearing, a place where metaphysics can and cannot take place....a > straddle.... > > & > > Steve Evan's: > > >My thinking is that the indispensable element of the avant-garde > >project is not "experiment" so much as what that term presupposes: > >autonomy. > > and the trenchant: > > >The vacuity of "dropping out" is not proof of the acuity of > >checking in. Both smack of extreme voluntarism in light of > >the *structural* exclusions of global capitalism. > > Steve's repositioning of the "avant-garde" project as a social (autonomous) > rather than scientific, or theoretical (exterior) is important. However, > what I'm not sure of here is the relationship of both "out" to "auto" -nomy > in the face of the "structural exclusions of global capitalism." > > I've been reading Joan Cock's *The Oppositional Imagination* the last few > days, finding myself under the transformative power of a searing critique, > and while I don't pretend to be as fluid or nearly as capable as she, I do > find many common concerns; one of which I believe would be that it is very > hard to speak of "autonomous" or "out" in the above senses. > > In the midst of a critique of Said's, Gramschi's, William's and Foucault's > models of "dominative power" she writes: > > "There is...a vitality to power at the molecular level and a fixity to it > at the grand one, so that approaching it theoretically from the bottom is > the surer way not to miss its variations, reversals, and diversions. And > when it comes to the local detail, one must be ready, if not quite for > anything, at least for many unpredictable and surprising things. Whatever > the great situation, this particular one, being particular, might bend in > all sorts of ways - towards some new and intensified form of the power > prevailing on the grand scale, or towards some humbled version of it, or > towards its deterioration, or towards its inversion." - p 49 > > In relation to both Steve and Tom, I'm gleaning two things from this quote: > > > One, that the propositions of "structural exclusion of global capitalism" > and "the world is a place of exile" both in-state forms of world (though > geo-physically with "global") that appear on the surface to refute an > outside while running the risk of imposing an outside. Both "structural > exclusion of global capitalism" and the world of exile seem to run the > risk, of proposing an absolute and of reifying hegemony. That in fact "the > matrices of transformation" that poetry can involve are "constant > modifications" (the *constantly* burning house), both internal and > external, "local" and "geo-political" power fluxes which constantly undo > the absolute "world", or "globe." > > And Two, exile and exclusion are impossible in this undoing and with this > impossibility, "out" and "auto," though intended differently, are actually > more similar in their exclusivity than not. (In this, there is no "closet" > either.) > > I'd like to tease this out further but I have to go out and pick up my > wife. > > > > > Patrick Phillips > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:21:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Shake Those Dirty Hands In-Reply-To: <199412060244.AA16542@panix3.panix.com> Eric, do what you do. Do. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 23:54:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Virus Warning (Forwarded) Many of you have probably been informed of a virus being spread by e-mail through America On Line, but just in case: If you receive anything from AOL headed "Good Times," do not read or download it: it is a virus that will erase your hard drive. The person who passed this along to me also mentions a second virus--"xxx-1"-- going around the internet: delete it without reading also. Steve ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 16:33:18 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: Virus Warning (Forwarded) >Many of you have probably been informed of >a virus being spread by e-mail through >America On Line, but just in case: > >If you receive anything from AOL headed >"Good Times," do not read or download it: >it is a virus that will erase your hard >drive. > >The person who passed this along to me >also mentions a second virus--"xxx-1"-- >going around the internet: delete it without >reading also. > > Steve I posted a similiar notice to a local list and I got this response: **** >From Sam.Chard@anu.edu.au Mon Dec 5 14:56:51 1994 Date: Mon, 05 Dec 1994 14:56:08 +1000 From: Sam.Chard@anu.edu.au (Sam Chard) Subject: Re: Fwd: Virus Warning (fwd) Sender: LISTSERVER@banks.ntu.edu.au To: Australian Literature Discussion Reply-To: AUSTLIT@banks.ntu.edu.au X-Mailer: Mercury MTA v1.11. X-Listname: Status: R Howdy Apparently it's all an enormous hoax This is probably the 5th message I've had regarding this today... I do have some info I received which explains why it is impossible to receive virus's via email, but I'll have to look for it... I'll publish it on this list as soon as I find it. Regards SAM ****** I don't know about things but maybe there is somebody out there who could comment on these virus warnings. Mark Roberts SIS Liaison Officer Student Information & Systems Office Ph 02 385 3631 University of NSW Sydney Australia Fax 02 662 4835 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 05:47:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: Re: Virus Warning (Forwarded) In-Reply-To: <199412060531.AA21081@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> from "Mark Roberts" at Dec 6, 94 04:33:04 pm It is possible to receive viruses via e-mail. S Braman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 05:53:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: Re: Out/onomous In-Reply-To: <199412060317.AA26212@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> from "James Sherry" at Dec 5, 94 10:16:36 pm Re the discussion of out and outward -- it may be that today the outside is all of the complexity, wildness, and potentially chaotic effects of the local. The butterfly effect (of chaos theory) as perhaps the most important form of power.... S Braman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 05:56:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Pinot Blanc Marxism Paul Hoover noted that: >Back in this recent series, Don Byrd made a very good comment about >avant-garde poetry being the "mainstream" historically, especially if you >begin with romanticism. Marjorie Perloff has made the case for this at length (& depth) with her analysis of the French reading of American poetics. It's still quite true. And it's disturbing to see that we ourselves sometimes forget this. I remember being furious to see, in the New Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics (in the entry on American Poetry) that Michael Davidson and Albert Gelpi identify "the major trad. of the 1970s and '80s" to be 3 general areas of practice: Ammons, Pinsky, Gluck (Louise not Bob), and Hass being one, Bell, Gallagher, Levine, Wright and Forche being the second, Howard, Merrill and Hecht being the third. That's disinformation, not just misinformation. And about as silly as TVF Brogan (one of the volumes two general editors) identifying The New American Poetry as being by Donald HALL, not Don Allen. Or, for that matter, Paul getting the title of Zukofsky's long poem incorrect throughout the Norton Pomo. If we continue to perpetuate our own marginalisation, it should be for strategic (not merely tactical) reasons. The alternative is just compradore poetics. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 09:13:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412051845.NAA23522@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, William Lavender wrote: > > A poet > recently told me he didn't read poetry for pleasure. "I mean lets face it," > he said, "when it comes to pleasure, enjoyment, relaxation, I'd rather watch > Terminator." There are pleasures that poetry strives to avoid, to unlearn, > to counter. > I don't have any problem with reading poetry out of a sense of duty or whateve > Our only subject here has been ethics. Like the song from my youth said, > "I feel like I owe it to someone." (Raised eyebrow): Fascinating, Captain. First, we have the equation of pleasure and enjoyment with relaxation--not what my friends the rock-climbers describe, or the rock and roll guitarists when they're licking up their chops. Notice, too, that there's no pleasure in duty, or in ethics, in paying your dues (to whom, exactly?). No one ever really _enjoyed_ dishing soup to the homeless, or calling for US intervention into Spain / Bosnia, or unmasking the "illusions of pleasure" that capitalism has purportedly foisted upon us (cf. McGann, in that old essay on Politics & Poetic Value). No: pleasure is what happens when you turn off your forebrain and watch Arnold blow away good guys, bad guys, til' you've had your share of biochemical thrills. Then it's back to the serious business of ethics, our only subject here. I just don't buy it, finally. I think that the pleasure / ethics split is bogus and reductive--the Victorians knew better. So did the Greeks. I think the equation of pleasure with ["mindless"] relaxation is, too. Maybe this just means that I'd rather curl up with Mirabell than Mad Max, or spank a monkey that's been dead since, oh, Lautreamont. But I don't think so. There's a knee-jerk anhedonia in critical discourse these days that seems to me as questionable as the use of words like, oh, "experimental," and that could use the same sort of theoretical and historical unpacking. It seems (pause) illogical. Aye, Twould be interesting to see / when Pleasure was declared to be / the enemy of Poetry--or, at least, given its purgative, medicinal function, when Poetry became the enema of pleasure. Damnit, Jim, I'm a doctor, not a dominatrix! I can't get combine instruction with delight. I'd lose my license-- [Cut from Mr. Bones in Sickbay to the pixilated glow of twisting plots in the Transporter Room, and / or Metaphorical Stanza, if we have the budget for bilingual puns in this week's (here's another:) episode. "Ambassador Wilde! What beams you into town?" "Oh, pleasure, pleasure. What else should bring one anywhere?" EMS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 07:19:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street But you would make such a great dominatrix! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 11:27:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412060638.WAA18751@leland.Stanford.EDU> BRAVO to Kathryne Lindberg for her wonderfully informative and helpful bibliography on Bosnia. I don't know the opera SARAJEVO but will ask Carey (daughter) who runs ACT and knows these things. Anyway, I am more grateful to K. than I can say. I was just about to give up, after reading the really frightening exchange on vulgar Marxists versus Chardonnay Marxists and other similar items. This is not an issue of yet again discussing "late Monopology capitalism," now a fact of life around the globe anyway, but to discuss what to do about Nationalist and religious wars that practically recall the Crusades, not to mention Hitler. It's not a question of whether Bosnia is in our "sphere of interest" but what will happen if we don't intervene now--and should have intervened years ago. The Serbs (total thughs and, incidentally, from what Dubravka tells me, overtly in favor of a Male, authoritarian, "back to the soil" literature movement, given the signal that they can do whatever they damn please in Bosnia, will now continue on to Hungary and/or Albania. It's just a matter of time. Is this our concern? Well, was Chkekoslovakia our concern in 1939? Poland? do we really not care what happens in Europe? Can we do anything? Yes, first of all inform yourselves (thank you Kathryne for the list) and stop talking about our own petty little concerns in the university or whether or not Imamu Baraka deserves $5,000 and write to our congressmen, draft ad campaigns, etc. This is REAL not one more hypothetical debate between various Marxisms. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 14:09:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: NEW: Ex-peri-mints X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET I am a G4 in the textual body of a G3. For roughly twenty years I have sought psychosurgical intervention for my problem. Now, with the ever-collapsing interior folds of cyberspace, I can begin to see the damp at the end of the tunnel ... 10100001001010010010010010100101001000010100010010000100100011 In L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E #3 (and later The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book), we printed Bernadette Mayer's compilation of writing "experiments". Over the years I collected additional experiments and changed some on the original list to reflect a somewhat different orientation. Given the conversation here lately, or not so lately perhaps (it just has taken me a long time to get this out), I hardly need to note that calling such lists as this "experiments" is tendentious. Perhaps it would be more accurate to call the list a series of nontraditional poetic forms. Experiments, I suppose, is the term that gets used for such lists to contrast with the ubiquitous books of writing "exercises" for creative writing class; in this sense, "experiments" are exercises with different poetic motivations and lineages: and one which, I would say, thinking of Eric Selinger's comments just now, do emphasize pleasure, or anyway the fun of writing. The common dislike of the term "experimental poetry" can, I think, be traced to such work being disparaged as mere "exercises", preliminary and incidental to the "actual work" of poetry. In this way, both "exercise" and "experiment" are deployed, positively and negatively, against assumptions about intentionality, related to the that other binary pair, process versus product. I use the "Experiments" list in my work as a teacher. (I used to work for corporations, but now I {just} work for the state.) Indeed the first class I ever taught at a university (UCSD) had the official title "experimental writing", which was appealing in that "poetry", that vexatious term, didn't appear (the other class I taught that quarter was entitled "advanced poetry" for which, of course, I designed a completely different syllabus). Nowadays I use the "Experiments" list not so much for teaching writing, but for teaching reading, that is, some of the "experiments" work as methods for "reading" through poems and others work as ways of approaching, if not imitating, certain poetic methods. I bill my classes these days as "reading workshops" and refer to working with this list as doing "something like lab work", shamelessly, and falsely, appealing to if not the prestige of science perhaps the acceptance by students that in science they will be dealing with methodology and form -- and also, obviously, to encourage a different way to think about reading poetry, linking two things most students don't associate -- scientific experiment and poetry. Actually, I distribute a shorter version of this list for "reading through" -- the ones that involve using prior texts, but it will be apparent which ones will work for this and which not. ********(((((((((((((((((((((()))))))))))))))))))))************** Anyone notice this full-page statement opening the new Exact Change catalog?: "RECENTLY a major publisher brought out a huge anthology of contemporary American poetry and title it 'post-modern' for no better reason that the that the term 'avant-garde' sounded too old-hat and the term 'experimental' seemed to connote failure. Well, it's time to revive these two perfectly good adjectives and take back our modernism from the learned bores of postmodernism. Besides, it never really went away, you know, it's here with us, superbly alive and well in the _Exact Change Yearbook_." --John Ashbery Perhaps "our modernism" is something like Ashbery's often quoted "the other tradition", a.k.a Don Byrd's mainstream, a.k.a. radical modernism, a.k.a. formally innovative poetry, a.k.a. "that poetry of which we speak" ... Exact Change runs a striking half-page color ad (black and white drop out lettering on red background) in the new New York Review of Books headlined "Classics of Experimental Literature" and featuring books by Aragon, Roussel, Lautreamont, Stein, Cage, de Chirico, Soupault, Appolinaire, Kafka. (I have most of these and highly recommend the entire set.) I haven't seen the Yearbook yet, by the way, but it is edited by Peter Gizzi, & includes a Michael Palmer feature, and a CD. $35 from Exact Change, Box 1917, Boston, Mass. 02205 (who'll also send you the catalog -- or maybe we can get an electronic version to post -- are you listening Peter?). The term "experimental" does not appear in the Exact Change catalog, except in Ashbery's inside front cover statement. This use in the ad suggests an active, indeed commercial sense of the term, at least in the (considerable) judgement of Exact Change publisher Damon Krukowski. Of course one could easily note that "experimental classics" is a touch, well, oxymoronic; but let she or he whose rhetoric is without oxymoron complain, I certainly am in no position to. In contexts like this, "classic" is a way to undercut the assumption that "new" or "experimental" works are undifferentiatable in respect to quality -- how can you tell one from another. (Pay attention is one possible answer.) New Classics plays off the sense of "classic" as having enduring value against the sense of "classic" as being traditional: I'd translate the expression as, something like, a work of untraditional value, valuable, in part, because it is untraditional or unconventional, but not exclusively for this reason. I would say the most common, and empty, charges against nonconventional literary works is that they are _only_ about their nonconventionality or antitraditionality or, so the refrain goes, only about "language"; as if one breaks forms or finds new one for sake of that activity rather than to be able to make articulations not otherwise possible. I would say such comments (and they are just as frequent in the alternative poetry worlds as in the mainstreams) mask the fact that conventional and traditional literary writing reinscribe the meanings implicit in their forms but that poetry is not limited to this activity of reinscription (lovely or comforting or pleasurable as it sometimes may be). There may be no pure outside (chorus: "no pure outside" "no pure outside") but there isn't no pure inside either (chorus: "no inside ether, no inside ether"). -- I remember going to some marketing meetings when I was working for _Modern Medicine_ in which they told us the readers (all physicians) were most likely to read an article if the word "new" was in the title. This will come as no surprise to any who drinks New Coke in their New Chevrolet, even if we are still bedeviled by the fact that Madison Avenue understands "make it new" quite well -- yet, against all odds, I would still say, _understands it differently_ . In _Modern Medicine_ the spin had a different moral imperative: "new cure for", "new protocol for" etc., so that the audience felt compelled to read these items in order to be competent, or, negatively, in order not to be sued; at the meeting we were urged to say new whether or not the item was new. This works because there "actually" are new developments in medicine with which physicians need to keep up: "new" is open to manipulation not because it is meaningless but because it is a marker of "practical" value. To say that marketing capitalizes on the claim of the new does not mean that newness is an empty claim: the difference between Madison Avenue's claim's and poetry's practice is one of motivation and ethics. SO, echoing Williams, I would say there is still news from poetry, and that women and men do die from the lack of what is found there (but not only there and it is surely not the only thing they die from the lack of). ============@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@===================== Over the years, I have come up with many labels, names, movements, and candidates for popular catch-words or art-critical jargon. I consider this similar to the activity (certainly not experiment!) of coming up with fifty possible names for a new poetry magazine). Few of my candidates have caught on, but as I toss out so many I shouldn't be surprised if once and a while my somewhat pataphysical namings enjoys a brief half-life. A young friend (e.g. "younger than me") recently wrote me to ask if I had realized that a book of poems I quite admired was actually written by him, though published under a pseudonym in a tiny edition. Since he seemed to want to enter into the social space of poetry, I suggested he include his own name in future distribution of the book. Still, the gesture struck me as a radical position about names and labels: read the work. I remember Spencer Selby, years ago, complaining that magazines accepted work, and readers read work, based primarily on name recognition; he proposed that work be published anonymously. A similar point was made here yesterday by Roger Kamenetz. While I understood the point, I had to admit that I like knowing who wrote what and didn't want to give up the frame, and the history, for the sake of what I suppose Spencer thought would be more fair -- a level playing field? Let me close with one more observation: three main yarns/braids (which I propose as an alternative term to 'threads' in cyberspeak) on the Poetics list have revolved around questions of the configuration of poets and/or poems: community in the spring, anthologies in the summer, labels in the fall. Now with winter, we seem to be focussing on war: the destruction of some communities by other communities. ##############################<><><><><><><><><><><############## There is a virus out there but it is not trying to get to your hard drive but your inside and outside. & you can never completely rid yourself of this virus but you can be a more or less hospitable host. & sometimes there is nothing you can do about it, and those may be just the times when it seems most urgent to imagine that you can do something. (There is a pleasure, also, in delusions of this kind: not of grandeur but of agency.) But because some things are beyond redress it does not follow that every circumstance is without recourse, nor every case without prospect. -- I would say it could matter quite alot where you were in a burning building, depending on which direction the fire was going in. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^############################^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am sending the Experiments list as a separate post immediately following this. Please send me (on or off the list) additions so that I can continue to extend and supplement. I realize my examples of works written in the particular forms is spotty but I don't have time just now to improve it. I send it with the hope that Bernadette Mayer gets better soon (many of you will have read the letter from The Poetry Project of St. Mark's Church forwarded by Chris Reiner) -- and returns to this experiment that is our everyday lives. --Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:54:48 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:52:46 -0500 from To James Sherry-- I certainly would not equate poetry with humane politics. My point was that the politics of our poetry scenes is no better than the politics we are complaining about. Judging Whitman for his blind spots is using blinding 20-20 hindsight. Who among us would survive that judgment, if we had the knack of turning it on ourselves?I suppose we can be no kinder to the poets of the past than we are to our rival contemporaries : purges all around, off with their heads. Rodger Kamenetz enrodg@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:22:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Out/onomous X-To: braman sandra In-Reply-To: <01HKB7ID4XYQ9GZQUL@asu.edu> On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, braman sandra wrote: > Re the discussion of out and outward -- it may be that today the outside > is all of the complexity, wildness, and potentially chaotic effects of > the local. The butterfly effect (of chaos theory) as perhaps the most > important form of power.... Which would suggest that as ineffectual as a butterfly flapping its wings the artist/intellectual/whatever has about as much influence. . . and that it would be silly not to recognize it. Pape's revision of Perloff's question is the important one: what do we do? We talk. . . and talk, and that is what we do. Do. And that flapping is as ineffectual/powerful as the butterfly's wings. . . perhaps poetry is not a "humanizing" or even "civilizing" force (which I don't think it necessarily is) but it does exert influence/power and the ethics of that power are recognizable. Is what we do simply "entertainment?" Or idle chatter? I'd be the last to say the artist/intellectual knows any better than the next person, but isn't there something as pernicious in abandoning that potential as in misusing it? Geez, I'm not a humanist, please. . . . But seriously (as if), our chatter is not as subsumed within systems of capital as it is portrayed as being. I work within the university because it allows me freedom (no matter how limited or limiting) to think in ways that seem "oppositional"--whereas if I worked at a job for a company I would have to think what it wanted me to. Little difference some of you are saying; well, that's not how I experience it. Would we be having this conversation behind the counter at Taco Bell? "Two tostadas, one seven layer, pintos and cheese, and a medium Pepsi--to go." Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:38:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street X-To: Marjorie Perloff In-Reply-To: <01HKBOPQKK0Y9I5CH7@asu.edu> On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, Marjorie Perloff wrote: > > Anyway, I am more grateful to K. than I can say. I was just about to > give up, after reading the really frightening exchange on vulgar Marxists > versus Chardonnay Marxists and other similar items. This is not an issue > of yet again discussing "late Monopology capitalism," now a fact of life > around the globe anyway, but to discuss what to do about Nationalist and > religious wars that practically recall the Crusades, not to mention Hitler. > It's not a question of whether Bosnia is in our "sphere of interest" but > what will happen if we don't intervene now--and should have intervened > years ago. . . . Is this our concern? Well, was Chkekoslovakia our > concern in 1939? Poland? do we really not care what happens in Europe? > > Can we do anything? Yes, first of all inform yourselves (thank you > Kathryne for the list) and stop talking about our own petty little > concerns in the university or whether or not Imamu Baraka deserves $5,000 > and write to our congressmen, draft ad campaigns, etc. This is REAL not > one more hypothetical debate between various Marxisms. Yes, yes, yes, yes and what I was interested in was if we (those who are members of the list and the artistic/intellectual community) might be able to speak in some sort of larger-than-single voice on the issue. I can write my congressman, etc, but isn't it important that my voice be represented as not simply alone in saying these things? I abhor the way we have all stood by and allowed people to be shelled as a matter of daily course and prevented Bosnia from defending itself without saying this is a lame way to conduct human affairs. But I want to join my voice to others in order that it have more effect than speaking alone. I would like to join my name (for what its worth) to a list of creative persons, academic sorts, who recognize the need to speak collectively about this situation in order to draw attention to it. I would only add that the discussions of marxism are important--as everything else discussed--precisely because in sorting out these matters and differences between ourselves we identify where we can speak together or not. Marjorie Perloff raised the issue--what can we do--and we have discussed it. This is a good thing, though, of course limited, but I don't want to renounce the discussion as "hypothetical"--especially if it has some REAL outcome. Is it now happening? Having said all this I'd like Kat to append the list of persons in England (or whereever) who are active in this issue, as well of the lists of internet resources she knows about on Bosnia. She could send to me or, better, the list as a whole. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 15:25:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Experiments List X-To: Poetics@UBVMS.BITNET EXPERIMENTS 1. Homolinguistic translation: Take a poem (someone else's then your own) and translate it "English to English" by substituting word for word, phrase for phrase, line for line, "free" translation as response to each phrase or sentence. (Cf: Six Fillious by nichol, McCaffery, Fillious, Brecht, Higgins, Roth.) 2. Homophonic translation: Take a poem in a foreign language that you can pronounce but not necessarily understand and translate the sound of the poem into English (ie French "blanc" to blank or "toute" to toot). [Cf Louis and Celia Zukofsky's Cattulus]. (Rewrite to suit?) 3. Lexical translation: Take a poem in a foreign language that you can pronounce but not necessarily understand and translate it word for word with the help of a bilingual dictionary. (Rewrite to suit?) 4. Acrostic Chance. Pick a book at random and use title as acrostic key phrase. For each letter of key phrase go to page number in book that corresponds (a=1, z=26) and copy as first line of poem from the first word that begins with that letter to end of line or sentence. Continue through all key letters, leaving stanza breaks to mark each new key word. [cf: Jackson Mac Low's Stanzas for Iris Lezak.] Variations include using author's name as code for reading through her or his work, using your own or friend's name, picking different kinds of books for this process, devising alternative acrostic procedures. 5. Tzara's hat. Everyone is a group writes down a word (alternative: phrase, line) and puts it in a hat. Poem is made according to order it is randomly pulled from hat. (Solo: pick a series of words or lines from book, newspapers, magazines to put in the hat.) 6. Burrough's Fold-in: Take two different pages from a newspaper or magazine article, or a book, and cut the pages in half vertically. Paste the mismatched pages together. 7. General cut-ups: Write a poem composed entirely of phrases lifted from other sources. Use one source for a poem and then many; try different types of sources: literary, historical, magazines, advertisements, manuals, dictionaries, instructions, travelogues, etc. 8. Cento: write a collage made up of full-line of selected source poems. 9. Substitution (1): "Mad libs". Take a poem (or other source text) and put blanks in place of three or four words in each line, noting the part of speech under each blank. Fill in the blanks being sure not to recall the original context. 10. Substitution (2): "7 up or down". Take a poem or other, possibly well-known, text and substitute another word for every noun, adjective, adverb, and verb; determine the substitute word by looking up the index work in the dictionary and going 7 up or down, or one more, until you get a syntactically suitable replacement. (Cf: Clark Coolidge and Larry Fagin, On the Pumice of Morons.) 11. Serial sentences: Select one sentence each from a variety of different books or other sources. Add sentences of your own composition. Combine into one paragraph, reordering to produce the most interesting results. 12. Alphabet poems: make up a poem of 26 words so that each word begins with the next letter of the alphabet. Write another alphabet poem but scramble the letter order. 13. Alliteration (assonance): write a poem in which all the words in each line begin with the same letter. 14. Doubling: Starting with one sentence, write a series of paragraphs each doubling the number of sentences in the previous paragraph and including all the words used previously. [cf: Silliman's Ketjak] 15. Collaboration: Write poems with one or more other people: alternating lines (chaining or renga), writing simultaneously and collaging, rewriting, editing, supplementing the previous version. This can be done in person, via e-mail, or through "snail" mail. 16. Group sonnet: 14 people each write one ten word line on an index card. Order to suit. 17. Write a poem trying to transcribe as accurately as you can your thoughts while you are writing. Don't edit anything out. Write as fast as you can without planning what you are going to say. 18. Dream work: Write down your dreams as the first thing you do every morning for 30 days. Appply translation and aleotoric processes to this material. Double the length of each dream. Weave them together into one poem, adding or changing or reordering material. Negate or reverse all statements (I went down the hill to I went up the hill, I didn't to I did). Borrow a friend's dreams and apply these techniques to them. 19. Write a poem made up entirely of neologism or nonsense words or fragments of words. [cf: Lewis Carroll's "Jabberwocky", Khlebnikov's Zaum, Peter Inman's Platin, David Melnick's Pcoet.] 20. Write a poem with each line filling in the blanks of "I used to be ----- but now I am -------". (I used to write poems, but now I just do experiments; I used to make sense, but now I just make poems.) 21. Write a poem consisting entirely of things you'd like to say, but never would, to parent, lover, sibling, child, teacher, roommate, best friend, etc. etc. 22. Write a poem consisting entirely of overheard conversation. 23. Nonliterary forms: Write a poem in the form of an index, a table of contents, a resume, an advertisement for an imaginary or real product, an instruction manual, a travel guide, a quiz or examination, etc. 24. Imitation: Write a poem in the style of each of a dozen poets who you like and dislike: try to make it as close to an forgery of a "unknown" poem of the author as possible. 25. Write a poem without mentioning any objects. 26. Backwards: Reverse or alter the line sequence of a poem of your own or someone else's. Reverse the word order. Rather than reverse, scramble. 27. Write an autobiographical poems without using any pronouns. 28. Attention: Write down everything you hear for one hour. 29. Brainard's Memory: Write a poem all of whose lines start "I remember ..." [Cf. Joe Brainard's I Remember.] 30. "Pits": Write the worst possible poem you can imagine. 31. Write a poem while listening to music; switch types of music. 32. Write a poem just when you are on the verge of falling asleep. Write a line a day as you are falling asleep or waking up. (Cf: Silliman's Circle-R.) 34. List poem: write a poem consisting of favorite words or phrases collected over a period of time; pick your favorite words from a particular book. 35. List poem 2: write a poem consisting entirely of a list of "things", either homogenous or heterogenous (common lists included shopping lists, things to do, lists of flowers or rocks, lists of colors, inventory lists, lists of events, lists of names, ...). 36. Chronology: made up a list of dates with associated events, real or imagined. 37. Transcription: Tape a phone or live conversation between yourself and a friend. Make a poem composed entirely of transcribed parts. 38. Canceling: Write a series of lines or rhymes such that every other one cancels the one before ("I come before you / to stand behind you"). 39. Erasure: Take a poem of your own or someone else's and cross out most of the words on each poem, retype what remains as your poem. [cf: Ronald Johnson's RADI OS from Milton.] 40. Write a series of ten poems going from one to ten words in each poem. Reorder. 41. Write a poem composed entirely of questions. 42. Write a poem made up entirely of directions. 43. Write a poem consisting only of opening lines (improvise your own lines, then use source texts). 44. Write a poem consisting only of prepositions, then of prepositions and one other part of speech. 45. Write a series of eight-word lines consisting of one each of each part of speech. 46. Write a poems consisting of one-word lines; write a poems consisting of two-word lines; write a poems consisting of three- word lines. 47. Synchronicity: Write a poem in which all the events occur simultaneously. 48. Diachronicity: Write a poem in which all the events occur in different places and at different times. 49. Visual poetry: write poems with a strong visual or "concrete" element--including combination of lexical and nonlexical (pictorial) elements, play with alphabets and typogaphy, placement of words on the page, etc. 50. Write a series of poems or stanzas while listening to music; change type of music for each stanza or poem. 51. Elimination: cut out the second half of sentences. 52. Excuses list: write a poem made up entirely of excuses (e.g. Terry Winch's "Excuses") 53. Sprung Diary: write a diary tracking and intercutting multiple levels of thoughts, exeriences, anticipations, expectations, from minute to major. (Cf. Hannah Weiner's Clairvoyant Journal.) 53. Make up more experiments Remember: Poems can be in prose format! Rewrite and recombine, collage, splice together the material generated from these experiments into one long ongoing poem! -- Compiled by Charles Bernstein from Bernadette Mayer & workshop's Experiments list, and various other sources 1/90, 6/93. (C) 1994 by Poets' Ludicrously Aimless Yearning (PLAY). Dispense only as appropriate and under the supervision of an attending reader. Individual experiments are not liable for injury or failure resulting from improper use of appliance. Any profits accrued as a direct or indirect result of the use of these formulas shall be redistributed to the language at large. Management assumes no responsibility for damages that may result consequent to the use of this material in educational institutions or individual writing projects. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 14:18:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: vulgar marxism X-To: Paul Hoover x350 In-Reply-To: <01HKAJ7011J69I57U3@asu.edu> On Mon, 5 Dec 1994, Paul Hoover x350 wrote: > I thought someone might comment on Baraka's "vulgar marxism." > Interesting phrase, "vulgar marxism," suggesting that its basic concepts > are to be discredited because we are now so much more sophisticated. Do > you imagine that the economic base is NOT a dominant concern? That the > United States, along with G7 (the only "G" force that really matters, > with regard to G1/G2 discussion) does NOT manage world affairs? No, no, no--I don't think marxism's concepts are "discredited" because we are more sophisticated, but because the systems of capital more complex than when Marx conceived the relation of base/superstructure. And, no, I don't imagine that the economic base is not a dominant concern, just that I want to move away from deterministic conceptions of the relations between different spheres of cultural production. I like Gramsci's model. Yes, I agree with you on these points, but I don't want to be reduced to acting always in syncronicity with some economic determinism, you know? Ya, ya. Thanks for lettering me clarify. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 17:12:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Robert A Harrison Subject: Re> Re: Out/onomous ------ From: UB Poetics discussion group, Tue, Dec 6, 1994 ------ >I work within the university because it allows me >freedom (no matter how limited or limiting) to think in ways that seem >"oppositional"--whereas if I worked at a job for a company I would have >to think what it wanted me to. hmm. I read the UB Poetics list and write every day while working for a major corporation. I don't like working for a corporation any more than anyone else, and, I sure don't think what they want me too ALL the time. Not even most of the time. Sometimes not for whole days on end, pushing weeks. As Kit Robinson has pointed out, there's an art to "exercising the wig." Please tell me there are more people who think that there're more ways than academia and business to make a living. Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 20:41:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Out/onomous In-Reply-To: <199412061156.AA26559@panix2.panix.com> I would voice support of Sandra Braman's tentative foray into describing the issues in terms of dynamical systems methods rather than the polar inside/outside criteria which discussion fell around previously. The notion that we can define an internal order to turbulence is fundamental to much of our poetics positioning. The metaphors of dirty hands and burning buildings are to say the least inflammatory and being derived from experience carry all the risks of a theory based on memory rather than a coherent analysis from which poetry can deviate, become chaotic, and as conditions change return to the order of which we speak. These states participate in a continuum rather than as a polar switch. They are digital, not analog, and open more doors than they close, which for me at least seems an good place to start. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 20:42:53 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street >Yes, yes, yes, yes and what I was interested in was if we (those who are >members of the list and the artistic/intellectual community) might be >able to speak in some sort of larger-than-single voice on the issue. I >can write my congressman, etc, but isn't it important that my voice be >represented as not simply alone in saying these things? my sister served as an intern in our (ex)Congresswoman's office--according to her, _10_ letters in one direction or another served as a significant influence on that legislator's perception of her constituent's wishes. tho it might make _you_ feel more effective to ally yourself with others in voicing an opinion, don't underestimate the influence of your own individual voice. the "religious" right doesn't. (the above is _in no way_ to be misconstrued as an opinion, held by m'self, that the regular channels of "our" "democratic" "institutions" can, by themselves, be sufficient to effect meaningful institutional change.) xxoo luigi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 19:28:21 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:54:48 CST from Rodger's point, earlier, was an important one. Up to now we've been assuming that there is only one kind of capital, ie cash. That might be all there is, bottom line, but Pierre Bourdieu (I don't know much about his personal life; if he abuses barnyard animal I am sorry for using him) writes: Thus, at least in the most perfectly autonomous sector of the field of production, where the only aundience aimed at is other producers (as with Symbolist poetry_, the economy of practices is based, as in a generalized game of 'loser wins', on a systematice inversion of the fundemental principle of all ordinary economies: that of business (it excludes the pursuit of profit and does not guarantee any sort of correspondence between investments and monetary gains), that of power (it condemns honours and temporal greatness), and even that of institutionalized cultural authority (the absence of any academic training or consecration may be considered a virtue). And further on: In other words, the field of cultural production is the site of struggles in which what is at stake is the power to impose the dominant definition of the writer and therefore delimit the population of those entitled to take part in the struggle to define the writer. While Bourdieu is certainly writing about the French poetry community, there may indeed be similarities between that and the, for lack of a better term the American avant garde. Not that there isn't problems. The good thing is that it demystifies the claim of the avant garde to special authority due to their lack of authority. The bad thing is that it really doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know --About the conflict between theory and praxis: I have a great deal of sympathy for both. But ultimately theory has to articulate itself as praxis; in poetry or in politics, it has to be done. Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:53:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412062225.AA14037@panix3.panix.com> Yes Rodger, I agree, we can be no kinder to ourselves than to the past and we must be as thorough critiqing our own positions and politics as we are in analyzing those of our opposition in the poetry or political world. Oppositional politics must be exposed as an expression of misplaced psychology. We are wasting our time as on religion if we persist in trying to universalize our morality about how good we are if we don't "dirty" our hands. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 18:59:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: The Advert-Garde In-Reply-To: <199412030513.VAA21550@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Steve Evans" at Dec 1, 94 12:09:39 pm The avant-garde is bound to fall faster than the main body of troops. They are the quickest ears and eyes, but they are alone in enemy territory. The true avant garde is sacrifivcial. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:59:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street X-To: Robert Drake In-Reply-To: <199412070246.AA09255@panix3.panix.com> To Robert Drake's note, YES, political influence is easier than we think. Think 10 letters influenced a vote. Democracy is about institutions that can carry multiple individuals. We need more than individuals, we need society to operate. Reducing reality to a war of individual points of view supports the right. Maggie Thatcher said, "There is not society, only individuals." The state directly controlling each individual is now a real possibility. We need our institutions to increase the masses mass. Apologies for the polemics, but... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 19:04:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Punk In-Reply-To: <199412021220.EAA17756@whistler.sfu.ca> from "eric pape" at Nov 30, 94 10:35:31 pm Was Punk at one time something other than entertainment? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 19:18:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Benjamin/Bryher In-Reply-To: <199411291239.EAA26494@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Michael Boughn" at Nov 29, 94 07:36:09 am & Mike, etc., do you remember why Bryher and H.D. snubbed Jung when they encountered him walking on the street in that little suburb, what's it called, of Zurich? My Jung friends tell me that they were not enough informed re his name's being on the pan-German psychiatric board whatever it was called. I dont know. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:23:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <01HKBSZPKUOCANBWP9@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> Jeffrey Timmons writes, "I would like to join my name (for what its worth) to a list of creative persons, academic sorts, who recognize the need to speak collectively about this situation in order to draw attention to it." I think a lot of our legislators would rather hear from a bunch of single constitutents rather than a list of creative, academic sorts. Both actions are worthwhile, but don't not do the single voice writing or calling. I know from experience that senators & congresspeople (& it's most important to call your local ones, for whom you are the constituent) actually do count calls & letters & keep tabs & sometimes (no, not always) it's those numbers that sway their vote or can even make them speak on the floor. That's why Working Assets giving free phone calls to them actually can help, Tenney. I know it all sounds too simple, but my goodness, let's not look for reasons not to call or write such people. They need to know that there's a radical mainstream experimental poetics group which cares about Bosnia, too. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 20:28:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: politics In-Reply-To: <199412041734.JAA29444@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Paul Hoover x350" at Dec 4, 94 11:29:58 am I think that Hoover is right when he says that nothing will happen in Bosnia until trade is threatened (presumably for thge US). One also notices that the US is slow to go to war with Eurowhite folks. Small Caribbean countries, okay. 1914? nah. 1939? nah. Middle east places, why not? Native Americans? sure. Indochina? bomb 'em. ` ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 23:55:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: The National Question, etc. X-cc: rsillima@vanstar.com There have been more thoughtful, interesting messages on the list in the past 48 hours than any person could ever respond to, but here are a few thoughts in a strictly reactive mode: It was great to hear Marjorie praise Kat Lindeberg's Balkan reading list while getting a (yet another) dig in at Marxism, given that the sources in KB's bibliography show a decided bent toward what I'd (very loosely) call the post-Trotskyist tradition (Against the Current, New Left Review). Excellent publications both (tho my two eye operations have really made NLR's 8 point type a chore the past few years, so I'm not as rigorous a reader as I once was there). As a fellow traveler of the post-Trots, I've always thought that their critique of Stalinism set them up to survive the collapse thereof with the least self-doubt. And generally it's been true, even in the former Soviet Union where Boris Kagarlitsky got elected to the Moscow city council. But Marjorie is right in her assertion that the National question is the most pressing (and depressing) issue facing us at this moment. Robert Schaeffer (onetime editor of Nuclear Times, now at San Jose State I believe) wrote a book that I read in manuscript back in the mid-80s on self-determination (a concept "discovered" more or less simultaneously by Lenin & Woodrow Wilson, both for tactical [if not overtly opportunistic] grounds--partition, with all its consequences, has been a major political tool ever since. One of the proponents for Prop 187 here in California (our own modest attempt at "ethnic cleansing") made an interesting comment on the radio the other day that "without borders, we'd be nothing, just an amorphous blob." That resonates so clearly with all the rhetoric of identity politics from the past 15 years as to turn my stomach. (Identity politics, Marjorie, IS vulger Marxism at its worst. Its characteristic chant--"the people united"--is ironic without self-knowledge. And it has been the disaster that the left in the US has not understood how to handle, guilt-ridden honkies that we are.) On the contrast between working for a burger joint and a university for intellectual freedom: if Davidson & Gelpi calling three brands of academic verse the "major trad. of the 1970s and '80s" isn't an instance of "thinking the boss's thought" I don't know what is. Does nobody out there have horror stories about the constraints placed on their work for orals or the dissertation? The sole difference might be that the burger worker is less apt to CARE about the subject for which his/her brain is being retooled. (Steve Farmer might well disagree with this, but then Steve doesn't cook for burger joints.) Working in corporations has certainly deepened my understanding of/commitment to a Marxian (as distinct from Marxist) discourse. The entire high tech industry is driven wildly by perceptions of the falling rate of profit (watch printer prices in 1995, or PC prices in the next 3 months--those are going to throw people out of work) and Kondratieff waves and social structures of accumulation are precisely what the transformation from an industrial to an information services economy is about. Bill Gates is still G2, about Ben Friedlander's age, younger than Michael Basinski if I reckon right. The guy who wrote Mosaic, the primary internet interface, has just turned 23. And some of the best Web linkage sites are being done by teenagers. The internet is "always already" an expression of post-GATT consciousness. The same principle that puts Tony Green and Wystan Curnow at our fingertips puts Mexican labor just seconds away. We're taking the touch costs out of more than just poetry. The price of influence has gone up from what Luigi-Bob says. When I worked as a lobbyist in the mid-70s, most legislators in California used to divide up (literally into shoe boxes) letters on each issue. First divide was in-district vs. out. Out never got read. Then in-district & out were counted. A postcard was typically given a weight of 4 (i.e., 4 people would likewise feel strongly in the district for each card) and letters were given a weight of 7. Every pol knows what their district is communicating. If you read the disclaimers of the congressional email project, for example, you will note that the first thing they want to know is your physical location since, unless you are writing from something like a school account, they can't tell where you live. Our boy Newt, former college professor that he is, plans to get all of congress up on the internet next year. So while I'm totally cynical about electoral politics (in this "democracy," the equation is really one dollar one vote), I agree that all forms of participation have some relative value. Steve Evans' comments about dirty hands are well taken. Though his are as covered with blood as mine. I think that there is NO comparison to be made when it comes to reading about the economy and the behavior of corporations versus participating on a daily basis, particularly if you are in a position where you can see both the micro decision-making and the macro effects. Tom Peters can tell you much more about capitalism than Andrew Ross, I'm afraid. There is also real value in participating in a community (as any job site is) in which the majority of people do NOT presume to be intellectuals. Where people are at least as apt to read the Koran or the Bible or the latest Tony Robbins infomercial best-seller on their lunch breaks as they are cyberpunk or Representations. The biggest problem with the university is not that it's not full of interesting, intelligent people, but that it's isolated and insulated -- and has an unbelievably stratified caste system between faculty, students and staff (hospitals and the military are the closest approximations to this). The entire tenure/specialisation process has one thing quite remarkable about it (that Lyotard only gets half right in his characterization of paralogy in the PostModern Condition): everybody is perpetually in competition with one another to differentiate themselves. Cooperation in too many academic settings occurs ONLY IN COMMITTEES, and we know just how reviled committee work is. Even in the worst of corporations, there is a general collaborativeness, whether it is to make the well-wrought Saturn or to get stock to turn 7 times per year instead of 6 in a widget store. Since the late 1960s, the academy has become increasingly an economic backwater--probably because it once for a moment seemed all too powerful and present--and I think the whole educational system is heading for a crash that will make the demise of Texas oil and Pennsylvania steel, say, look like a picnic. The prominance given to such "academics" as Gingrich and Gramm (both professors a few years back), Bill Bennett, John Silber, Lamar Alexander (running for Prez no less), the late Alan Bloom, the authors of The Bell Curve, Camile Paglia et al suggests a pretty tawdry state. Lingua Franca makes no pretense about its role as the National Enquirer of this domain, but the Chronicle of Higher Education has just figured out a better mode of drag (sort of the Victoria's Secret to LF's Fredericks of Hollywood). One can operate oppositionally in ANY of these settings. If one knows where one is positioned (both personally and institutionally). But I'm always startled at how clueless many academics seem on that point. And that's where the national question, which is murderously re-emerging everywhere, has me wondering tonight. ((This troubles me completely: I'd use "oppositionality" where others would the avant-garde or experimentation to identify my own sense of tradition, but that word Op- Position has exactly that counter thrust of border creation that I find so suspicious or flagrantly dangerous in every other instance. So I find myself at the crux of a dilemma. I don't have the answer.)) Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 03:02:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: The Very Best Writer In-Reply-To: <199412070757.AA12809@panix2.panix.com> I would appreciate it if someone could send my condolences to Bernadette. I miss her voice terribly. We never ever got along, but her writing was an enormous influence on me, especially works like Utopia, Studying Hunger, Memory. They're some of the few books I keep returning to over and over and over again. I've never read anything like the latter, before or after, not even Kathy's work which also owed a lot I think to Bernadette. I have no money I can send on for the fund. I wish I could turn the world upside-down for her. Terrible. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 03:35:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: braman sandra Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <199412070151.AA04019@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> from "eric pape" at Dec 6, 94 07:28:07 pm Re Eric Paper's comments on capital -- it has long been a problem of, let's call it, chewing-gum Marxism, that it grossly oversimplifies the notion of capital, which has always had multiple and shifting referents. In the mercantilist period it was amazing to some that folks would think wealth might actually be equated with that stuff, money. One feature of the information economy is emergence of new forms of capital -- intellectual capital, the cultural capital Pape and Bourdieu refer to, and information capital. Here poets are rich. Sandra Braman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 08:36:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Snubbed In-Reply-To: <9412070838.AA22675@jazz.epas.utoronto.ca> from "George Bowering" at Dec 6, 94 07:18:50 pm George: I can't say why they snubbed Jung, but I suspect it had less to do with international politics than with psychoanalytic politics. Their devotion to Freud was intense and personal. And they perceived the psychoanalytic movement, as it was called, as bearing the same kind of millennial burden someone now might attribute to something called, say, post-Trotkyism. It's strange because in some ways H.D.'s thinking, anyway, is finally closer in many ways to Jung's than Freud's. And H.D. always perceived her self as heretical. Still, Jung was the bad son of The Master they loved. But this, of course, is all speculation. It may be somewhere in the correspondence, but I haven't seen it. Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 09:59:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Eagleton and social control Someone sent a message recently quoting Terry Eagleton on (to paraphrase) the powerlessness of art in the face of the actual control of resources by a particular class. Can whoever wrote that in quote it to me again, and/or tell me where I can find it? I have a bad habit of not knowing what I'm going to find useful until I no longer know where to find it. Thanks. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 10:48:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: experiwhat Dear Charles B: That's quite a list of experiments! It reminds me of Kenneth Koch's techniques for eliciting poems from kids in school workshops, though obviously more extenisve and geared toward technical issues. I guess I always had a bit of a problem with the "put a different color in every line" school of writing when I was doing workshops. While the results are spectacular in some sense, my own sense of what writing could do for the kids in that situation was somewhat different. That is, rather than focussing on language as medium and its extraordinary possibilities, I always felt more attracted to the problems of articulation and choice in relation to the kids' lives. I remember a 5th grader in a class at School 4 in Buffalo (that's in the middle of the Perry Projects on the upper south side) coming up to me after my rap to them that they *were* poetry, that poetry was their lives if only they could find the words they needed, that every detail of their lives was suitable for this language. He was defiant, and smart assed, and said with a sneer that he was going to write a poem about hanging in the park listening to Niggers with Attitude, expecting me to draw some line. Which I didn't. So he actually had to think about it and write it. It wasn't bad, either. He decided finally, on his own, for reasons he never explained to me, to change Niggers with Attitude to NWA. For better or for worse, it was a choice, one that to me with my somewhat antiquated views on poetry seems somehow more significant than whether to put red or green in a particular line. Ditto with the 6th grade kid at Red Jacket Academy who wrote about "Old men with big 20 gallon / bottles of E & J or Easy Jesus / wearing big clunk master boots / with no toe." (Jeez, I love that) And a hundred others I could quote. It always seemed to me in those situations that the kids had so much to gain from poetry. Call it the world. Or a world, anyway. An entrance. Maybe that's partly why I feel the way I do about "experimentalism", that it seems to me to step around those difficulties in favor of some other, more formal ones. Best, Mike ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 10:55:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: prayer Well, are we against school prayer or what? "I would only be against prayer if they didn't pick MY prayer." So, I was teaching Ashbery's "Morning Jitters" and brought up the possibility that one of the main reasons Ashbery used the for "preached at" by a poet anymore--and so he had to create these ironic forms to be able to have his didactic cake and eat it to, as it were--a chaser, etc... And so I brought this up to my class, and a student (one who loved Silliman's MICROSOFT BUYS CATHOLIC CHURCH, by the way) said "THIS SUCKS, THIS SUCKS,I HATE BEING PREACHED TO" and then we had a moment of silence but only because time was up. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:02:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: thugs I'd be interested in hearing more about Marjorie Perloff's theory that Serbs are "thugs". Is this a fixed category associated with certain nationalities? Does it change over time? Were, say, Croats "thugs" 50 years ago, but now not "thugs"? Have Bosnian Muslims ever been "thugs", or have they always been--what is the opposite of "thug"--"nice", "peaceful", "friendly"? Good, in any case. Were all Germans "thugs" in the same way all Serbs are "thugs", or was it only memebers of the National Socialist Party? What is the neo-Trotskyist line on this question? Mike Boughn mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:02:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: prayer As for those who accuse Hoover/Baraka of VULGAR MARXISM--What is this VULGAR MARXISM, any Marxism that remembers that the ECONOMIC is the REAL BASE ISSUE????? Well then certainly VULGAR Marxism is preferable to much of the obfuscating poetic/theory discussion that has dominated here for some time now...NOT THAT I MIND obfuscation (the noise of culture) per se--but when it PASSES ITSELF OFF as a revolutionary socio-political strategy then.... Besides, this weird hybrid of say Bertolt Brecht and ....(I'll save that harangue for another time). Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: thugs In-Reply-To: <199412071614.AA26692@panix.com> I'm glad you have the space to carefully consider these categories. Alan On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Michael Boughn wrote: > I'd be interested in hearing more about Marjorie Perloff's theory that > Serbs are "thugs". Is this a fixed category associated with certain > nationalities? Does it change over time? Were, say, Croats "thugs" 50 > years ago, but now not "thugs"? Have Bosnian Muslims ever been > "thugs", or have they always been--what is the opposite of > "thug"--"nice", "peaceful", "friendly"? Good, in any case. Were all > Germans "thugs" in the same way all Serbs are "thugs", or was it only > memebers of the National Socialist Party? What is the neo-Trotskyist > line on this question? > > Mike Boughn > mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 12:40:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. X-To: Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: <01HKCDH1HC829I5DPL@asu.edu> On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, Ron Silliman wrote: > Since the late 1960s, the academy has become increasingly an economic > backwater--probably because it once for a moment seemed all too powerful > and present--and I think the whole educational system is heading for a > crash that will make the demise of Texas oil and Pennsylvania steel, > say, look like a picnic. The prominance given to such "academics" as > Gingrich and Gramm (both professors a few years back), Bill Bennett, > John Silber, Lamar Alexander (running for Prez no less), the late Alan > Bloom, the authors of The Bell Curve, Camile Paglia et al suggests a > pretty tawdry state. Lingua Franca makes no pretense about its role as > the National Enquirer of this domain, but the Chronicle of Higher > Education has just figured out a better mode of drag (sort of the > Victoria's Secret to LF's Fredericks of Hollywood). Yes, perhaps, but doesn't Gringrich's, Gramm's, Paglia's, et al's, prominence and presence in popular/political culture suggest the vital interrelation (largely in a sense that is disturbing to me, being as their politics are detestable) of academia and the rest of the world? I don't disagree that the university is in trouble, but it's because education as other than vocational training is highly unpopular not only with students but the those that pay for education at the state/federal levels. What place is there for art if education is meant to "train" the student a job? The place such "academics" as Newt et al is precisely an indication of the power and ability (used regressively) such institutions still manifest in the "isolated" and "insulated" "backwater" status. I largely agree with Ron's comments, but somehow his comments about academia remind me too much of the Republicans attacks on the "establishment" of Washington DC--an establishment and set of practices they are very much a part of--particularly as they portray it as something "out of touch" with the rest of America. I don't want to speak for anyone besides myself, but I am not simply an academic. I play many roles in my own life and act in many different dramas--all of which connect me to the rest of the world. My "academic" role is vitally connected to my other roles, particularly my role as a citizen, a member of the polis. Yes, our roles are increasingly isolated, but academics are neither more nor less isolated or "redundant" than any other "occupation." Maybe even less so. All I want to claim is that while all "occupations" compel one to think for them at least . . . I experience my own sense of being able to set the agenda more for myself here than anywhere I have hitherto worked. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 12:53:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: thugs X-To: Michael Boughn In-Reply-To: <01HKCUU6CL5U9H05VO@asu.edu> On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Michael Boughn wrote: > I'd be interested in hearing more about Marjorie Perloff's theory that > Serbs are "thugs". Is this a fixed category associated with certain > nationalities? Does it change over time? Were, say, Croats "thugs" 50 > years ago, but now not "thugs"? Have Bosnian Muslims ever been > "thugs", or have they always been--what is the opposite of > "thug"--"nice", "peaceful", "friendly"? Good, in any case. Were all > Germans "thugs" in the same way all Serbs are "thugs", or was it only > memebers of the National Socialist Party? What is the neo-Trotskyist > line on this question? "Thugs" are those that sit on hills above a city and shell children playing soccer, turning the field into a cemetary; "Thugs" are those that refuse UN safe passage to isolated area in order to feed people unable to gather food because of a war; "Thugs" are those that kidnap UN troops as "insurance" against NATO bombings; "Thugs" are those snipers who patiently wait for 11-year-olds to cross their paths. You know them, I know them, is there really any need to clarify this? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 14:58:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: Alan Golding Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: note of 12/06/94 20:51 Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Eric: If you get caught being sympathetic to abusers of barnyard animals, think of the good company you'll be in--see Olson, "There Was a Youth Whose Name Was Thomas Granger." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:00:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: prayer X-To: Chris Stroffolino In-Reply-To: <01HKCUUEQ4OI9I57GY@asu.edu> On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Chris Stroffolino wrote: > As for those who accuse Hoover/Baraka of VULGAR MARXISM--What is this > VULGAR MARXISM, any Marxism that remembers that the ECONOMIC is the > REAL BASE ISSUE????? Well then certainly VULGAR Marxism is preferable > to much of the obfuscating poetic/theory discussion that has dominated > here for some time now...NOT THAT I MIND obfuscation (the noise of culture > per se--but when it PASSES ITSELF OFF as a revolutionary socio-political > strategy then.... Besides, this weird hybrid of say Bertolt Brecht and > ....(I'll save that harangue for another time). Chris Stroffolino > Yo, vulgar marxism is a model of the relations between the base and superstructure where the economic base determines the superstructure. It's a model marxists have come to distrust for a number of reasons--largely because it is too deterministic and reductive of the complexity of systems of production at present. Any other questions? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:20:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Eagleton Quote In-Reply-To: <01HK4OMURJ9U9I4Y8Q@asu.edu> On Thu, 1 Dec 1994, Steve Evans wrote: > I am not a terrific fan of Terry Eagleton's, but his > answer to Eric's question ("how do I not become a > commercial") is a compelling one. In *The Ideology > of the Aesthetics,* Eagleton writes: > > If they can place your revolutionary artefacts > in their banks then that means only one thing: not > that you were not iconoclastic or experimental > enough, but that either your art was not deeply > enough rooted in a revolutionary political movement, > or it was, but that this mass movement failed. How > idealist to imagine that _art_, all by itself, could > resist incorporation! The question of appropriation > has to do with politics, not with culture; it is a > question of who is winning at any particular time. > If _they_ win, continue to govern, then it is no doubt > true that there is nothing which they cannot in principle > defuse and contain. If _you_ win, they will not be able to > appropriate a thing because you will have appropriated > them. The one thing which the bourgeoisie cannot incorp- > orate is its own political defeat. (372) > > This of course recalls Benjamin's "and the enemy has not > ceased to be victorious" (in "Theses").... > I hope Steve doesn't mind me posting this again, as I believe Mark wanted this. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:38:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: The Prominence and Isolation of the Academy In-Reply-To: <01HKD2JI55OY9I5CXS@asu.edu> Oh, I almost forgot: following up on my comments on the prominence of academics in the national spotlight, did anyone see Camille Paglia on the Conan O'brian show last night? I only caught the end of it, where she was saying that strip clubs were pagan shrines for the worship of the female form--O'brian thought that worth paying homage to (I disagree, with both him and Paglia). I have other thoughts about how these rather reacationary/conservative critics/academics are getting so much press recently--how it's connected to the Republican "landslide" (as if)--but I have to dash off to "work" now so. . . . But hey Harold Bloom's new book--Paglia his student!--seems even part of this movement of "tradition" and canon that is synonomous with the Republican values being promulgated as of late. Did you see how much coverage he got? Time, Newsweek, NYT Review of Books (I think it was that one, or another). Geez, as if he were insulated from what is going on in the world! Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 15:05:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <01HKCHN7UVT691WQ08@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, Mn Center For Book Arts wrote: > Jeffrey Timmons writes, "I would > like to join my name (for what its worth) to a list of creative persons, > academic sorts, who recognize the need to speak collectively about this > situation in order to draw attention to it." I think a lot of our > legislators would rather hear from a bunch of single constitutents rather > than a list of creative, academic sorts. Both actions are worthwhile, but > don't not do the single voice writing or calling. I know from experience > that senators & congresspeople (& it's most important to call your local > ones, for whom you are the constituent) actually do count calls & letters > & keep tabs & sometimes (no, not always) it's those numbers that sway > their vote or can even make them speak on the floor. That's why Working > Assets giving free phone calls to them actually can help, Tenney. I know > it all sounds too simple, but my goodness, let's not look for reasons not > to call or write such people. They need to know that there's a radical > mainstream experimental poetics group which cares about Bosnia, too. > > charles alexander > Point taken. But I think in general I'd still agree w the Baudrillard point: that any time your opinion is solicited, esp. around a yes/no toggle, it's very likely that the question has been formulated in such a way as to make the effects of the "answer" not very efficacious (and also: that the questions tend to get formulated or re-formulated in such a way as to distribute the answers toward 50/50: a great centralizing and inertia-producing mechanism): or: is there "more" or "less" "public opinion" in the polling era than in the pre-polling era? Or as Prodigy likes to put it: "Is O.J. Guilty? YOUR VIEWS" (which gets you to a screen in which you toggle yes/no to a lot of prepared pollster questions). WHich doesn't mean I don't vote or don't phone "my" congressperson. Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 17:11:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Punk In-Reply-To: <199412070819.DAA75185@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "George Bowering" at Dec 6, 94 07:04:49 pm George Bowering writes: > > Was Punk at one time something other than entertainment? Yes. It was (mebbe still is somewhere & for some bodies) a collection of attitudes, a subculture, a community--not so very different from what "this" is. Songs like the Dead Kennedy's "Winnebago Warrior" or Black Flag's "TV Party" offered, believe it or not, trenchant (and amusing) critiques of media, consumer culture, & ecotyranny before i got around to Benjamin, Baudrillard etc. The "zines" sold outside punk clubs were my first exposure to do-it-yourself "alternative press" publications, wherein kids (somtimes as young as 10 or 11 as i recall) tried their hand at reviewing records and concerts for themselves, casting their thoughts into editorials on serious political & moral issues, drawing comix, "networking" etc. In fact, the do-it-yourself ethic (something cultivated on this list?) was one of punk's strongest appeals--breaking down the boundaries between audience and performer (as the mosh pit encroached on the stage) etc. etc. I cld go on about its meaning as a "social formation" in my life, at a time when it looked as if the world wld blow itself to bits any day, but I'll stop here for now... Did it escape commodification as "entertainment"? Not by a long shot--and that process, as other G1-ers (erk, i really hate that appellation) here have suggested, was sometimes a painful and disillusioning one. Even so, it didn't erase the other things that punk was. Is jazz anything other than "entertainment"? How about poetry? steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:53:23 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street Ron, it puts me at your fingertips? Don't forget the "and vice-versa". I welcome Charles Bernstein's long long list. Many of these are familiar. I could add a few to that, combining translation and dice-driven letter group changes etc. the use of only symmetrical capital letters for every word of a text..... I've been reading The Best of George Gershwin. And Alvy in Woody Allen's Manhattan invited to go see some Sol Le Witt's replies " Yes, that would be fun". And, for a whole lot of other reasons too, there is one little point that needs making. Writing poems is easy, as we all know. Writing poems that we woiuld have others hear, as we would read them off our bit of paper at a lectern, or in the street, (as Ron has, as I have too) or recite in a crowded room on some occasion, and then think of there being others who might read them or recite them, is to turn from the Writing Room (Scene 1) to the Pub(L)ic arena (Scene 2) and there is immediately not only a {POLI-TICS} but an EROTICS. Questions? "They're writing songs of love, but not for me...." If PLEASURE of the Tongue and of the Ear and of the tickled Brain is not forthcoming, who'd dream of listening to poetry ever again, (or read it). The only claim of poetry on the others around the poet is that it gives a variety of pleasures. It MAY -- WELL -- (well?) -- BE the CASE thAT marginalization has occurred not strategically or tactically but by ignoring this simple enough sounding "fact". Writing poems is necessary because last week's poems no longer satisfy the poet. Last month's may still satisfy the poet's friends. (But why aren't the Gershwin brothers anthologized?) What is this "compradore" poetry of Ron Silliman's? Why is seriouu poetry not supposed to take place in cabaret, only in class-rooms? It doesn't make much odds what humanitarian causes poetry advertises. It's the whole jingle inserted into the political jungle of publication (printed, electronic or "sung" aloud) that works an effect on people (e.g. indifference, tomato-throwing, jeers or cheers). I strongly recommend in the light of all this that poets get back to business. If, as seems to be the case that we are enclosed hopelessly (oy weh!) in a Social that is Show-Biz (! I like that ?) Show-Biz is necessarily the only way to go, but poetry can need it's own spaces, e.g.St Mark's may be, Ear Inn, as well as get out into more Public Spaces, owned and operated by others etc. It's not fame or money, but the honour of the practice of this amazing craft, that is motive. (Motive enough!) Doing poetry in public is highly political. There are splendid models available in the fifties and sixties for vigorous performance and writing in public spaces. Then "daring" to say what goes unsaid, out of pressure of business corporations or educational corporations (oops, sorry, I mean universities in their current state forms), is what counts, and there those who are well-versed in researches into what really happens in Bosnia etc can do their thing, like crazy. As for intervention, Wystan Curnow and Alan Loney and I, armed with slug-guns only are off to make peace in Bosnia to-morrow. It's really so simple, after all we're Kiwi Kids, we can do it....(Wystan and Alan don't know this yet). Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 20:50:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412070756.AA03068@panix3.panix.com> Re Ron's lengthy and gestural response I have much agreement but a couple of concerns that concern us as poets. If Ron is worried that the University is too isolated, how can we view the poetry community. At the University you have to negotiate between administration, staff, teaching staff and the students. In the poetry world we can't even agree among a group of people who by virtue of common interests and experience in their "chosen" endeavor should by all rights agree. But we don't. I would attribute the issues in the poetry community to our ideas. Not that they are good or bad, but that if the most of the world treat property as value, we treat ideas as value and as such hoard them as surely as the miser hoardes gold and claim them as ours and if a difference of a word or two crops up, create a stink that would clear out the skunk farm. Distinctions, differences, adjustments to distinctions. Where's the beef and Marjorie might say... Second, the use value of Marxisms being in doubt right now, we have a chance to carve out some relationships between its dualisms and the three pronged arguments about ecology and the four sided arguments about personalities and the five sided discussion in the systems universe about types of social groupings until we were blue in the face. We do seem to be in agreement that nation states hardly exist as other than coffers of resources for transnationals. The refusal of the left to support a nation state in the Prop 187 argument is proof that we are internationalists regardless who is running the show. One species on the planet and eventually one set of leadership. It is up to each of us to contribute to the fact of internationalism in our own way. I for one am interested in shaping it rather than resisting a faite accompli. JAMES ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:18:52 U Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: Re: Streaming Reply to: RE>Streaming -------------------------------------- Date: 12/7/94 5:47 PM To: Kit Robinson From: UB Poetics discussion group Some scattered thoughts are streaming after the following: MERZ. Some advantages of working in the rough & tumble business world -- a more cooperative model for getting work done, greater diversity in the working population, and a compelling sense of making it up as you go along (i.e., that which is being TstudiedU is identical to that which is Tbeing madeU). Plus thereUs a lot of great non-poetic material out here, which as we know is good tonic for reviving boring old literature. This is not career counseling. IDs. I agree with Rodger that much of the discussion of politics and group identity seems motivated more by a desire for positive self-identity and recognition than for political efficacy. .EDU/.COM. I wonder if there isnUt a kind of town & gown psychology at play in speculation about the life of poetry inside & outside academia. Now that more and more of us .com guys are joining yUall .edu guys on the Net, I wonder how thingsUll change. At least itUs a way to talk over quadrangle walls. I donUt know how long IUll be able to deal with all these messages though -- just reading Uem -- (my time is billable). PUNK. The point of punk was that these people said fuck you to the established commercial channels, creating their own scenes, producing on their own labels, etc. It was entertainment, sure, and never really threatened the power, I agree, but at least it had some energy. Of course, punk was tailor-made for recuperation (see Malcolm McClaren). Hip hop is a similar case in point. The point is local (in the current instance, multi-local) self-regulated activity may have half a chance to produce more than more of the same. EXPERIMENTS. From my teaching days, IUd agree with Michael Boughn that the value of form lies as a tool to tap into content. I used to propose a formal exercise linked to an sample text then let the students run with it. The payoff was not in the skillful manipulation of form but in how the forms enabled the students to access areas of content that were meaningful to them -- much more so, I believe, than if they had been assigned to write RaboutS specific subjects, their feelings, etc. Kit Robinson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:23:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professions, academic etc. X-cc: tmandel@cais.com It has taken me a couple of hours to read (at least partly) the extraordinary number of contributions to this list which have arrived in cyberlitterland over the last couple of days. My survival, i.e. time enough to pay the bills and make money enough to do so, depends on you cutting it out. 1. For 5 years during WWII neither the English nor any other allied power laid an intentional single bomb across the railroad tracks that led how many thousands of jews gypsies gay people per day? to doom. Does this make them thugs? 2. I was a grad student for 6 years, have taught in 3 universities, have worked for large corporations, as well as quasi-gov'tal organizations, and have written and lived poetry off and on all my life. Without question, and by metaphorical orders of magnitude, the most serializing, cutthroat, thoughtless and non-oppositional (i.e. slavish) environment I ever lived in was the academy. Lagging far behind is the world of poetry, although as poets move into the academy some of them unveil an extraordinary capacity to take on that local color (and others, on the other hand, retain the exceptional generosity of nature and act that will make you know whom I mean *not* to be commenting on). There is a strong sense of comradeship among poets somehow, at least I have always noted it, which mediates if not moderates the lust for... any response honor position the opportunity to make a living by your wit of words, whatever. This comradeship I think it is which allows a poet like Henry Taylor to write so meaningly about Jackson Maclow, and which allows me to enjoy getting to know HT despite thezero in common of our work. Much more open, all the same, much more egalitarian, much more permissive of range has been the world of commerce. I remember how shocking, and somehow wrong, I found that fact. 3. The above is what James Sherry might call a "theory based on memory... not analysis" (that's a paraphrase rather than a quote, but close I think). All theories are of memory (a term whichwe need not trivialize) and on the other hand, analysis (despite the brilliant series of posts by James which had me gasping with pleasure to keep up with) is a meaningless term, an honorific in any case, and a metaphor (understand by dividing : divide and conquer, really) of little application. Recursive systems (i.e. memory-based and developmental in whatever chaotic way) offer the ability to accumulate insight at some social level; they are what can get us beyond MThatcher's "no society, just individuals" position. 4. What I say in point 3 is intended to make you understand that what I say in point 2 is true. 5. I've been fired from positions both academic and in commerce, in both cases (repeatedly, by the way) for the same reason, for having an idea. In commerce, at least usually, it was because the idea didn't work. In the academy? Just for having an idea. 6. When I quoted Hugh of St. Victor on exile, it was not so that you (dear reader) should have your consciousness perfected by the right position, but that you might take in and "experimentally" share a response. Again, the goal is to accumulate and distribute some largest possible sense of human response. Nothing is more foolish than to spend one's days distinguishing between on the one hand vulgar marxism and on the other hand a marxism appropriate to the changes in the organization of capitol. None of us can know at all what the structure of capitol is. For one thing we are part ofit, for another only a bounded thing can be "analyzed" (but, see above), and it is not that. And, finally, why do we wish to constrain the mind to appropriate response, when it is the mind that makes that world of capitol. Make something else. 7. I now work for myself. That's what I learned. If anyone would pay me, I'd teach for myself (I do seem to know a great deal; drop over some time - you probably know a lot too), but they don't so instead packet filtering routers, virtual circuits, negotiation, managing payables and receivables, closing complex deals, usw. are my daily fun, and I do mean that. They call for no analysis. James, at least so I think, knows about such devices too. Having known each other for going on 2 decades, you might wonder why we've never worked together. 8. Grad student, quit school. But, I can't tell whether Steve Evans or Patrick Phillips or Jeffery Timmons or Eric Pape or others (very few women, very little evidence of a point of view of color, very little sense of a specifically Jewish pov, very little in any sense specific to anything whatever, informed by anything not on the other guy, yeh guy's reading list. If you are on faculties, quit. Anyway, Ron's right; your industry is heading for a collapse, it has lost all justification. 9. Paul Hoover's position is overwhelmingly informed by work he has done to know, accept and make use of his own sources. Ditto Ron Silliman. These positions are without irony, unhidden in trashy even disgraceful joking that there is no relationship between your person and your position, as if these were different in some principled way. 10. We all have a responsibility, a political responsibility, to make something (dare I use the word?) positive, i.e. existent and contributory to the larger thing which is merely the contributory nature of all that is positive. This means pleasure in writing and a sense of the permission of form beyond theory as the only real contact we have with the unknown, i.e. with value. As above, this is a recursive procedure; it can be justified by nothing outside it. Without being local (i.e. Serbian or Croatian : bonnet blanc, blanc bonnet), it is endlessly specific. Attending to it is a discovery, uncovering, of more specificity. 11. Oh. In 8 above, you may think I'm being dismissive. Or glib, in advising you to quit. You have families, you have to have a job. Sure, no problem. Nor do I take the Platonic position that a slave is one by nature or essence : if not, he'd be dead. After all, I was fired, I wasn't offed! I prefer the Jewish position, be kind to the slave. In the jubilee year, free all the slaves (what the heck, most of them will enslave themselves again). (of course, that's only one of the jewish positions, i.e. positions in the rabbinic tradition - which is always what *I* mean by the term "jewish"). 12. I knew a poet once who was quite wealthy - by marriage. He lived well, by which I mean in a bohemian manner and much like the rest of us, all young enough (tho some older than others) not really to notice, to accumulate, difference from where it sprung. In any case, this poet didn't need a job. Yet, a time came when the poet wanted to work. The poet once asked me for a job, but I didn't have one to offer. Some years later, the poet decided to enter grad school, got a Phd somewhere in the humanities, and then got a teaching job and began to live very differently from how we had all lived -- in any case, we were all living differently, having gotten older, and that was no surprise. The poet's poetry hardly changed at all. 13. Because of what I say in 11, that is why I have written mildly and without wishing to give offense. It is a subject, what responsibility is taken not to articulate a position correctly but to live a worthwhile life. Don't you think it idiotic to imagine that the conditions no longer inhere for that possibility? 14. There is no such thing as silent prayer. "Oh Lord, bring the arrogant kingdom to an end, speedily and in our days." Anybody know the reference? Tom Mandel ********************** T O M M A N D E L ********************** 2927 Tilden St. NW * Washington DC 20008 * Voice: 202-362-1679 tmandel@yorick.umd.edu FAX: 202-364-5349 ****************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Abby Coykendall Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: con in on late night Concerning late-night Camille=20 P. and C. o=D5Brian bit, to whom=20 ever, I am in much=20 disagreement. =20 Whether Madonna or Camille, =20 I think it is entirely wrong to=20 argue with them on intellectual=20 grounds, esp. as an acedemic. =20 They are =D2public=D3 not=20 =D2acedemic=D3 objects,=20 phenomenon of mass-appeal=20 and thus mass-capital, and as =20 such, I think the former =20 =D2mass appeal=D3 part takes =20 precedence, I don=D5t dislike=20 people for merely making=20 money, only for making that=20 money wrongly. Camille speaks=20 much more to a public than we,=20 acedemics, she has more public=20 to speak to. In being _feminist_=20 she can be highly hazardous, or =20 quite good. I think she=D5s the=20 later. I think she makes naive=20 arguments that I don=D5t agree=20 with. I think if she made=20 complex, good, truly smart=20 arguments that I liked, =20 she wouldn=D5t be on the Conan=20 o=D5B show. I want her to be on=20 that show. =20 I want somebody in the media=20 who has some audacity and dare=20 calls herself a, god forbid,=20 __feminist__ which very=20 seldemly gets good press. I=20 want that person to=20 acknowledge that there are=20 many types of feminism, so as=20 not to make one (bad) =20 thing of it. I want this so when I=20 introduce my students to it =20 [them], I don=D5t have to spend=20 too much time not using the=20 (bad) word, which has gotton =20 quite bad press. I have (now at=20 the end of the semester) many=20 who are quite radical feminists=20 who still refuse to call=20 themselves __feminist__=20 because of this bad press.=20 Camille P. did me a favor.=20 Camille P. is one of the only=20 women I=D5ve seen on Conan=D5s=20 show who is not just sexy, =20 but smart (however naive). =20 Has smart things on her mind, =20 rather than hidding them in=20 some fashionable outfit. =20 As to the =D2pagan worship=D3=20 thing. =20 I thought that quite funny. =20 Funny is something expected =20 on late night TV. =20 This funny happened to be=20 slightly untrue. =20 I truly don=D5t care. =20 Women do have (more power=20 than is thought) in strip bars. =20 Than is thought. =20 Than is thought. The media=20 generally thinks their body is=20 there most powerful. Their=20 body is their most powerful. As=20 power, the women=D5s is most=20 often there. =20 It is true that women are not just=20 victim=D5s, they have more power=20 than is thought. Camille was=20 undoing this thinking, not=20 making a very intellectual=20 statement. As a public=20 statement goes, it was good. =20 As something to say to a=20 woman, it might have been=20 great: take control of your body,=20 your self. Make yourself get =20 out of that usually scripted role=20 of victim. Make yourself into a=20 new script. =20 This is okay public speak.=20 Makes bad acedemic press. =20 -------abby c. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:35:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Experiments Dear Charles-- I suppose you in part posted the list of experiments as an homage to Bernadette, and of course I wish her well.... And it is also a tribute to Tzara, Cage, and Mac Low, all of whom I would likewise honor. Although, as you know, I sometimes--perhaps often-- do not agree with you, I take your work very seriously. I find most of your moves in relation to the art generative--decisively so. And I have attempted to understand why you introduce these "experiments" in the context of your of your proposal of poetry as experimentation. The use of that kind of experiment, when it was of use, was to rend the placid, rational surface of smug and placid rationalism. There was a powerful, even controlling assurance, that the world made sense. One half of Modernism was commitment to the revelation of precisely that sense-- Yeats, Pound, Joyce, Shoenberg, Anglo-American philosophy from Russell and Wittgenstein to Quine and the Cognitive Scientists. It is sadly reduced but the drivel that comes from most Creative Writing programs to this day still basks in that now grim assurance that because I saw a blue jay on a maple branch take a shit, it most have some true and important connection to my thought of mortality. The irruption of the irrational and its disruption of that smug sense of the world--whether from the Dadaist/surrealist algorithms of non-sense or from the failure to make it cohere by the like of Pound-- was immensely satisfying and, of course, immensely productive. The mode of production that had proven so successful in art was adapted in the 1950's also to commercial production. The rational machine of the capitalist economy began exploiting its own material unconscious, thus, fueling unparalleled economic growth. The surface of the earth was increasingly covered with the chaotic residue of riotous production: the production of art, the production of consumer goods, the production of by-products that polluted the environment, the production of what Smithson called "the slurbs"P"a circular gulf between city and countryPa place where buildings seem to sink away from one's visionP buildings fall back into sprawling babels or limbos. Every site glides away toward absence. An immense negative entity of formlessness displaces the center which is the city and the swamps." For the generation of artists born of the World War II-- "born dead," Smithson says of them, everything they'd learned was wrong. The techniques of the artists who had interested them in art in the first place, whom they had admired and thought to imitate, turned out to be inappropriate to this new condition. Dadaism lives: it is taught at in the Harvard M.B.A. program. Surrealism lives: it is taught to computer programmers at M.I.T. (some might say, mathematics has proven so strange, that it is taught even in the math department). Our architects, our lawyers are modernist purveyors of chaos (to say nothing, of course, of the faceless committees which generate what we call the media). After a certain point, chaos no longer needed the help of art. To recall wild nature in tranquility, to practice nihilistic techniques of art and thought, to do automatic writing, or to create chance generated art is a pointless gesture. The techniques that delivered fresh air in 1810 or 1910 contributed (though contributed insignificantly) by 1970 to a proliferation of incomprehensible energy. The Dadaists never managed to exhibit the degree of chaos that Smithson records in his snap shots of Passaic, New Jersey. It seems to me that these experiments at this late date call us back to means that are as exhausted as the means of a poetry that still attempts to make "ordinary" sense of a world where one watch a blue jay crap and thinks of mortality or Aunt Minnie. If we are going to experiment, let us experiment with all seriousness. Stephen Hawking concludes _A Brief History of Time_ with these words: "... if we do discover a complete theory, it should be understandable in broad outline by everyone, not just a few scientists. Then we shall all, philosophers, scientists, and just ordinary people, be able to take part in the discussion of the question of why it is that we and the universe exist. If we find the answer to that , it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason--for then we would know the mind of God." To be sure, there is something very slippery in Hawking and those who make similar arguments (this guy Frank J. Tippet who has a very popular reading of physics right now is a real hoot) in that they confuse their representations for the world (as many writers make the opposite mistake). But I cannot help but notice the disparity between Hawking's hoped for result and the hoped for results in doing cut-ups of _Being and Time_ and _The National Enquirer_. It seems to me that if poetry is going to be taken seriously, it is going to have to ask more of itself. I would suggest that we take Parmenides, Lucretius, and Blake--Blake the thinker-- as our models. It is going to be tough to teach the Workshop to do that, and we do not have much time, but we have time for nothing less. If no one writes a poem for fifty years that is okay. There was plenty of pass-times. I do not mean that we can write _like_ Parmenides, Lucretius, and Blake, but we might undertake the task of producing a world that offer the commodious possibilities for knowledge that theirs do. The notion of avant-gardism and avant-garde experimentalism are profoundly progressivist. Even as the avant-guardists explored the most primitive recesses of culture and mythology, or the depths of dream and intoxication, systematic or random disorganization, the orientation was toward an expansion of consciousness into the unknown. The avant-gardists were the imperialists of the spirit, brothers and sisters to the colonists. The parallels between Walt Whitman's adventures into the soul and the United States adventures on its passage to India cannot be dismissed. Just as the modernists travelled along with the colonizing anthropologoists. It is not for us now a matter of judgement. The time is long passed, and we can say only that that something, which had been lurking in human possibilities, hidden, made itself powerfully manifest: it was beautiful, unjust, vicious, and inevitable, and now complete. One cannot imagine the usefulness of such a concept in a world devoted to sustainable uses of resources. The best assessments of the ecological damage are produced by different models and do not give consistent results. It would seem that after this extended period of cultural sacrifice for the sake of developing representational techniques that are accurate and complete it should be possible to model the world environment with considerable accuracy. The various representations, however, give a remarkable range of results, and we do not have a science for determining which representation is the best. We have theories and theories of theories, but in this most significant of matters, where the stakes are all or nothing, we do not know any thing for certain. It is generally clear, however, that the present industrial- environmental practices cannot be continued indefinitely without causing irreversible damage to the world ecosystem. In 1990, the well respected World Watch Foundation estimated that present trends would cause irreparable damage in forty years. Even if we have five times that long we are already in the crisis. Certain aspects of desire were regimented (often at great personal cost) in the service of an organization devoted to greed. Communism proposes a greater justice in dividing up the booty, but it too is profoundly progressivist. What was repressed and is still effectively repressed is in fact obvious: the finitude of the earth. For a very long time in the West we tried to base knowledge on the notion of infinitude. The critique of that notion has left art almost totally befuddled and trivial. Let us begin with the finitude of the earth. This seems fairly secure knowledge, the grounds for a new epos. Over a century ago, John Ruskin wrote: "The real science of political economy, which has yet to be distinguished form the bastard science, as medicine from witchcraft, and astronomy from astrology, is that which teaches nations to desire and labor for the things that lead to life, and which teaches them to scorn and destroy the things that lead to destruction." How, Charles, do we get it all out of the poetry workshops? Best, Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:17:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.lindberg" Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:13:18 -0500 from I shall gather materials for those interested, re: Bosnia Herzegovina group in London, New York . Etc. This will take me a day,since my books are with my addresses in an office I can't reach at the moment. Let me just say, though, that Civil War is a LOADED term. The war, acknowledged by all and espcially by the UN even in the first phases of the war, which meant in Croatia and even Slovenia, was a war of aggression. After all, though Slovenia, Croatia, and Bosnia seceeded (also a complex story) from the Yugoslav Federation, Serbia, principal in the JNA (Yugo. National Army) had vitually all the military bases and weapons. Anyway, there is a great deal of information and misinformation to dig through. This is hard stuff, but difficulties of communication and accurate political assessment should not keep us/one from venturing forth, at least as far as trying to get a fix on part of a whole scary kindling to another ethnonationalist conflagration. More to follow, but meanwhile. . . It does help to contact legislators individually; it also helps to contact "contact groups" and the representatives of govt's of former Yugoslavia. There are Bosnian missions and Croatian embassies in several cities; New York being principal here as always. As I mentioned, I shall get useful information to those interested. I am sorry that it might be a few days, but I am tripping through a very complex moment in my life. TRIPPING in the sense of falling and catching my step, not in what is now a very old San Francisco acid sense. I do think that it behooves poets and philosophers (funny work,that last) to (seek to) address THE WORLD, from which there is no escape, anyway. Discussions of Marxism, as much as they escape concern over academic or p.r. capital, are most important. However, given the complex investments, both utopian and intellectual, in Tito's Yugoslavia, ironies abound if one attempts to reconcile such discussions with the war. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 00:30:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.lindberg" Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:13:18 -0500 from James Sherry's observations about the cost of war profiteering and the skewed and screwed hopes of the young men and the very old men (in Serbia, Croatia, all over the former USSR) are quite to the point. Once again, after all the World War(s) and hot little distractions in outposts of various empires, war is the bloody displacement of desire, the means by which a few extract too much from so many. It's an ugly scene over there; nearly as simple as thugs with no power feeling the illusory power of being able to sign on to consumerism, the perfume, as Duchamp might say, of the atalier, no, as Marinetti would say the abattoirs. That is no thin line. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:22:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Eagleton Quote In-Reply-To: <01HKDLHGK3R691XIMF@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> I just devised a fancy little macro (most of you probably have a system-generated function to do this) to gather up, automatically, all the POETICS missives in my INBOX and slide them over to HOLDPOETICS, till I have time to read them--so I can see my un-cyber-bounced mail once the pruning has been done. Just auto-toted over 54 messages in the last 36 hours or so (most not short, nuther). The joint jumpin'.... (so much for Eagleton?) Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:27:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street In-Reply-To: <01HKDKSM4VAY91XIMF@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Alan Golding wrote: > Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville > Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu > > Eric: > > If you get caught being sympathetic to abusers of barnyard animals, think of > the good company you'll be in--see Olson, "There Was a Youth Whose Name Was > Thomas Granger." > "and no use made of any part of them" (sigh) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 22:59:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Punk In-Reply-To: <199412080140.RAA16536@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Steven Howard Shoemaker" at Dec 7, 94 05:11:35 pm Dear SHS, Thanks for the good words on Punk. I didnt pay much attention to it, though my great friend Greg Curnoe did seriously. I suppose that the whole ethos and maybe the words in (smudgy) print were interesting, and oppositional in a useful way. I dont know. I understood what they were saying when they insisted on poorly-played two chords and all. But really, I didnt want to listen to a song twice. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 23:07:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professions, academic etc. "Thug" is derived from "thag," a Hindi word for cheat or swindler and was introduced into English in the 17th Century to refer to the *p'hansigar* -- professional robbers who strangled their victims, an enterprise known as "thugee." It was adapted in the 19th century to refer to any form of organized domestic terrorism, from street gangs to "electoral thugs" who kept people from voting (or voting 'the wrong way'). Earliest uses in the OED suggest that the shift came when referring to Scots as thugs. Thus the term as we know and use it is heavily tinged with the stigma of the Other (thugs are darker than "us") and coded with the practices of colonialism. It was British laws against the "race" of the Irish that were first imitated in setting up the laws of segregation in the USA. There is a certain irony to its use in this discourse. The Serb governments (plural: Serbian Bosnia is not identical to "greater" Serbia as a political entity) are certainly fascist: using nationalism as an excuse and genocide as a practice to create a military state with an internally capitalist economy. This doesn't make saints out of either the Croats or the Muslim community of Bosnia. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:23:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: U'Makhniya Zedim In-Reply-To: <199412072006.PAA01957@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> Tom Mandel asked if anyone knew the reference for "Oh Lord, bring the arrogant kingdom to an end, speedily and in our days." In my book it's "uproot, crush, rout, subdue." Daily Shmoneh Esreh, just between the prayers for righteous judgment and for scholars. The question remains--why do I now keep thinking of Phil Dick's VALIS? "The Empire never ended." EMS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:07:18 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professions, academic etc. In-Reply-To: <9412080709.AA15306@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> Since the discussion has lately touched upon issues of nationalism and the academy (albeit in separate "strands"), I thought I'd inject some comments about the ways in which the two are intimately related in the 50th state. One of the foremost advocates of Hawaiian (as in the ethnic group, not simply the citizens of the state) sovereignty is Haunani Kay Trask, head of the Hawaiian Studies department at the University of Hawaii. The issue of Hawaiian sovereignty is much at the forefront of Hawaii politics at present; activists demand everything from greater self-determination under the current system to complete secession from the United States. One group moved onto an Oahu beach for over a year and raised a large sign declaring the formation of a Hawaiian state; after much arm-twisting from the state government, which needs to at least feign sympathy, the protesters were moved into a valley, where they are at least not seen (from the point of view of the governor, that is). Trask, who was educated at the University of Wisconsin, is one of the loudest advocates of sovereignty and one of the most provocative. She's recently come out with a book of essays, _From a Native Daughter: Colonialism & Sovereignty in Hawai'i_, and a book of poems, _Light in the Crevice Never Seen_, which is remarkable to me for its absolute conservatism of form and language (though Hawaiian words are sprinkled throughout). In one representative passage she points to the university as a colonial institution (from an essay, that is): For Hawaiians, American colonialism has been a violent process: the violence of mass death, the violence of American missionizing, the violence of cultural destruction, the violence of the American military. Once the United States annexed my homeland, a new kind of violence took root: the violence of educational colonialism, where foreign haole (foreigners, white people--the two are the same!) values replace Native Hawaiian values; where schools, like the University of Hawai'i, ridicule Hawaiian culture and praise American culture, and where white men assume the mantle of authority, deciding what is taught, who can teach, even what can be said, written, and published. Trask has been at the center of a couple of free speech issues in the last four or five years; most recently, a cartoonist for the student newspaper took her to task for a poem from her new book, "Racist White Woman." The paper was very reluctant to publish her response to him. Her claim is that the poem is about a specific woman, so that it's not racist (and one of my students, an African-American, got very upset that some people have taken the poem personally rather than as a response to similar feelings that have gone the other way for too long). My sense is that Trask meant to evoke such a response ("woman," after all, is generic as well as specific). Here's the poem, whose rhetoric is not at all exceptional: I could kick your face, puncture both eyes. You deserve this kind of violence. No more vicious tongues, obscene lies. Just a knife slitting your tight little heart for all my people under your feet for all those years lived smug and wealthy off our land parasite arrogant. A fist in your painted mouth, thick with money and piety and a sworn black promise to shadow your footsteps until the hearse of violence comes home to get you. Now imagine yourselves, if you are white, teaching this poem to a group of students almost none of whom are white, who've grown up in an educational system that has persuaded them that mainland values are better than "local" ones, and who are, therefore, many of them--well, the word ornery comes to mind. This past semester as I taught poetry from Hawaii and the Caribbean, I found myself repeatedly in situations where the overwhelming emotions of the moment made ordinary, rational, academic interventions seem fruitless. And which made my position of authority problematic, at best, since the students had an emotional investment in the material that was far greater than mine. I found that the best, or only way, to deal with it was to set the students up to debate each other, rather than to try to guide them somewhere I wanted them to go. As for the poem, if turnabout is fair play, then where on earth do we go from here? This is what bothers me most; what is violence rhetoric in this case, is actual violence elsewhere. How can be address the nationalisms that live among us (including native American nationalisms)? How can we balance these against a larger American self-definition, whatever that may be? Yes, the world is Gattifying, becoming more and more international. But it's also becoming more and more local. The idea of the Pacific Rim actually only includes Asia and America--what happens to the islands in-between, with their self-definitions at stake? And how can university professors (my classroom, at least in this case, WAS the real world) fruitfully participate in these debates? These are not rhetorical questions! Susan M. Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 17:17:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: U'Makhniya Zedim The point of my reference to the daily prayer of all jews that the arrogant kingdom be destroyed (an arrogant kingdom whose identity changes as time and space change the speaking [i.e. praying] voice) was, as Eric Sellinger doubtless understands, to inform with the evidence of a life practice the repeated references to the 'known" function of "religious" values/ institutions/practices, which references have about the same "positive" content as most of the references to what the other does that live in the posts and "politics" "?" of this list, i.e. little and that usually to pass along a counter of agreement, again to make sure everybody is reading the same reading list, and no new world-facts storm our interpretations. The point of my reference to the genteel allied practice of allowing the uninterrupted operation of the great death train system of the germans, an allowance referred to from time to time in British foreign office papers as a contribution to solving "the jewish problem" to come post-war and asking whther these were thugs was, as Ron Silliman immediately grasped and philologically supported, that there is no group whose nature character history it is to undertake what the serbians have undertaken. No, we don't know who the "thugs" are. We don't, as I fail to remember whose post had it, know who is sitting on a hill waiting for schoolchildren to enter the open so as to destroy them. We don't know, because it's not somebody different from who you are looking at whenever you are looking at the next person (nor is that intended as an accusation). tom mandel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 17:41:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Re: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professions, academic etc. In-Reply-To: <199412082015.PAA09814@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> As a former haole, back on the mainland, I'm shaken (not stirred) by that poem, Susan, and by your apt portrayal of the classroom context in which these issues often play themselves out. I gnawed a similar bone last semester, trying to choose what Baraka poems (if any) to teach in a survey course--the Heath conveniently forgets to mention any of his anti-semetic work, just as it forgets to mention Rukeyser's Jewishness, or Tillie Lerner Olsen's, raising questions in its own right. But I digress. Clearly this is a poem that's meant to make some of its readers buck up, validated, and others shrink and squirm, red-faced and stung. I wonder--is it the sort of poem I'm supposed to give the nod to (include in classes, etc.) as a gesture of multicultural solidarity, at least until the guns start firing and the calls for ethnic cleansing begin? Do I turn away right from the start, on the theory that I and the public know what every schoolchild learns, and that my family and I might not be first up against the wall when the revolution came, but we'd be on the wrong side of history nonetheless? Is this a case--since Tom Mandel asked about positionally "Jewish" responses--in which Deut. 23:3 comes into play: to let the students hash it out without specifically addressing its threat to you and connection with all kinds of bad stuff worldwide falls under the heading of "showing deference to a poor man in his dispute"? Questions, questions. Will muse on this. EMS ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 18:15:36 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Academy, etc. I wanted to respond thoughtfully, and I hope I do, to Tom's extremely thoughtful posting. In many ways, I think he is right; he certainly had me pegged, but I wonder how much he knows what we (my generation, my class whatever) out there in the "Real World" have to face. Listen, for me, in the placeI grew up, it wasn't a choice between the academy and Phillip Morris; it was a choice between the academy and Wal-mart, or if I was lucky, the Borax mines. I'm not trying to say that my situation was wors than any number of people;in fact I was lucky to have that choice because if you were Latino where I grew up, it meant digging ditches for Cal Trans or Mcy Ds. Yes I am white, or, where I grew up, white trash, where it still means something besides a cookbook deal with Random House. And yes, my family still lives in a trailer park, still drinks light beer all night on a sofa in in the front yard, still gets weekly vists from Child Welfare.... But you've heard that a hundred times already in mainstream poetry/ fiction. I don't mean to make a big deal with it, because it is not a big deal in a time when people are shot at on the way to the Circle-K (in Bosnia or Southcentral), but it perhaps explains whyI decided on the academy. The academy been bery bery good to me... Because the academy supported me when no one could. Period. Due to wonderful wealth of the state of California when I was coming up, and due to fact I was poor enough to be called underprivileged, I never paid tuition. Got grants and later, in Louisiana, got a GTA. I'm not here in the academy because somehow I think I will be engaged in pure research, pure poetry, pure work for the work's sake. I'm here for the money, because if someone is willing to give you money to sit around and think about stuff, I say take it. Because this is the only chance I had. In L.A., they were going to give me 6.5 an hour with a BA from a third rate CSU to work 60 a week. My mother in the local Stop and Go makes 9.25 now. I decided to go back into the academy. Listen, it seems to me, and this is as I write this between an incredible amount of work all due next week, that it is quite easy to criticize the choices of others when you are comfortable professionally, I mean canonized, professionally and personally. Many of the things Tom said are perfectly true, but, I know the Real World. I've seen a good deal of my family die from it, toxic poisoning from the Borax, "accidents" at the construction site, and a shit load of alcohol related diseases. Give me the choice between that and the academy, and I'll take the academy.Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.ed u) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 20:32:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professions, academic etc. In-Reply-To: <199412082342.AA12116@panix3.panix.com> The issue of characterization, calling people thugs or jews or tall, is difficult to address alone, because one will always come up against an unanswerable question which is the intention of the speaker. Black kids call each other nigger and the common wisdom is that they can say it and non-black people can't. In the movie "Wanderers" I remember a classroom scene where the teacher tries to list the names kids call each other by way of teaching them the sticks and stones may break my bones lesson. The result of the lesson isthat the class falls to real fighting. But later in the movie when those same kids: black, chinese, italian and jewish are playing together and are attacked by a nameless hatred of the other personified by an anglo gang, they unite and defeat the gang, supporting the sticks and stones point of view. We may characterize, but the question is does the characterization prevent us from seeing the real nature of the problem. When Marjorie calls the serbs thugs, she misses the point of why the serbs are doing what they are doing. It is not of use to characterize them and by doing so cloak their intention in their thuggery. Their intention must be addressed. If we ask them, what do you want and they say we want the Muslims land. One can say yes or no. To say they are thugs is to create a conflict that the serbs cannot understand and to put us in the same position vis a vis our objective and the serbs are vis a vis their objective. If we say to the serbs, no you cannot have that land, we must be prepared to act accordingly. If we are not prepared to act accordingly we are accomplices of the serbs. Viola Spolin in her book Theater Games I believe is the title suggests a game where people have conversation without the pronouns, without, narrative, without description, and without facts. It is a difficult exercise and suggest we try it before we start attacking or defending the serbs way of behaving and as it has been suggested worry about how the Muslims will behave when the Republicans lift the arms embargo and support the Communist serbs with massive air power. Thugee becomes thug at the drop of a gat. As is pointed out it is not an easy question because we cannot easily discern another's intention and because although we deplore violence we mostly recognize our right to defend ourselves. The anti-Islamic issue in European politics plays as much a part as the serbs activities, but as I have tried to point out with my tale of visiting serbia, the intention "land" must be addressed directly, not by characterizing, but by taking certain risks which no one in this discussion would consider participating in. Inflammatory rhetoric is most often the province of non-combatants. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 20:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clint Burnham Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Re: prayer In-Reply-To: <9412072018.AA16648@portnoy.canrem.com> Yeah, and chris don't forget "vulgar postmodernism" (the belief that the world is made up of silly people who write Guy Debord obituaries & don't realize he meant spectacle, and nice gallic word, and not show biz, a nasty north american wqord), and "vulgar poststructuralism" (the belief that totalizing hurts more than breathing partition dust in an office), and so post vulgar on. just to bring you up to date. Clint-o ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 20:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clint Burnham Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professi In-Reply-To: <9412080425.AA25446@portnoy.canrem.com> the problem is you're ewither working with people you like & you can't talk about a lot in common or with people you don't like and have too much to talk about with ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 17:51:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: haoles In-Reply-To: <9412082248.AA08852@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> I'm glad to hear from a "former haole," Eric--though isn't that in a sense part of the problem; can you imagine being a former African American or former Asian American? I'm not sure that the kind of discourse that I quote by Haunani Trask leads _necessarily_ to ethnic cleansing, though it certainly bears resemblance with the rhetoric _of_ ethnic cleansing. And that's part of the problem teaching the material; do you opt with those who suggest that rhetoric is powerful but, paradoxically, not a call to real action? Or do you take it as a call to arms that is intended to include you? If there's a more moderate position to take on the question, which I suspect there might be (being a foolish optimist), will anyone in the heat of the moment actually listen? I just attended a lecture by David Lloyd on "nationalisms against the state." He talked about the current Irish situation, in which the Irish (whoever they are) are perhaps trading cultural power for economic colonization by the new Europe. The upside of Hawaiian nationalism, so far, has been the reemergence of Hawaiian culture outside the province of the tourist industry, which has "preserved" that culture by presenting it as a self-parody for the consumption of outsiders. Trask wants Hawaiian hotel workers to start trashing the hotels; doesn't she face, then, the increasing poverty of her people for the benefit of re-creating an ethnic and cultural (in this case the same, I guess) identity? She wants and expects culture to do political work, which Lloyd is suggesting may not be possible in the face of GATT and NAFTA. Lloyd suggests that local resistance is possible without the ultimate goal being that of creating a new state on the example of the old, as he claims happened in Ireland in the 1920s. Trask agreed with him on this, which suggests (I hope) that "ethnic cleansing" may not be the result of resistance. The violence may come, instead, from above--as is happening in Russia? I don't know. Some afterthoughts on teaching: in some sense our horror at Gingrich's being an academic seems beside the point. At the University of Hawaii one simply is the representative of the state, the nation, some sort of American canon. This implicates you in all sorts of things, no matter how liberal you are. Trask is right on this one. One can (as I and many of my colleagues do) cede authority in the classroom, present oneself honestly as a "professor from the mainland with such and such degrees), and then find that in that absence name-calling begins. I don't know, it's a confusing situation to be in. I suppose in the case of Baraka, which Eric cites, one needs to present a "fair" cross-section of his work, and then argue out what is of value, and to whom. But the ethical pressures are, in any case, immense, whether one includes or excludes such material (and several students called me on the fact that I'd xeroxed her--Trasks's--"racist white woman" poem, but not her erotically charged celebrations of the land). At such a point the instructor's discomfort with authority turns into a kind of nostalgia for it! And alternative authorities are created in the classroom, some of them overt, and some of them subversive, no matter how fair-minded you think you're being. On a more personal note to Eric, I'm a great admirer of your work on Crane and Gluck, et al. Glad to hear that you add "haole" to your credentials . . . Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 00:14:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412090335.WAA101832@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "eric pape" at Dec 8, 94 06:15:36 pm Eric Pape's reply to Tom Mandel's post said some things that needed to be said. Mandel said a lot of good, thoughtful things but i cld do without his self-righteous advice to "drop out" of grad school. Everybody's got their own history/choices to wrestle with and blanket admonitions of that sort are simply worthless. Not to put him on the spot, but i heard Charles Bernstein say some interesting things about the academy as a working environment when he came to C-ville this fall. Charles, are u there? steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 01:31:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: prayer well clint one wonders if there's nothing but gossip at the end of this tunnel of vulgar hight postmarxism that flagellates self-importantly like the Ramones trying to play acoustic. You know, the "I care about global things" kind of intellectual ruse that might as well be Ruskin on a bearskin rug being blessed by Bishop Cardegan as far as I'm concerned. You know I heard a good one about Benjamin the other day, and ideas are ordered, yes they are, you know they are, ordered through personality networks, and it is my personality not to have one...chris ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 00:23:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns Let me report, for James's benefit, that I did indeed manage to make myself whole by thinking, though evidently the effect was temporary and I again find myself fragmented. The experience wasn't as bad as the past two decades of (a)social thought had lead me to believe--definitely worth a few blisters. Irony aside, my header actually refers to some lines from an early Rosmarie Waldrop poem, "Linear," in which she speaks of being in history as receiving "personal blisters from / impersonal burns." The particular context in her case, being born into a Germany already under Nazi control (see *The Hanky of Pippin's Daughter*). The most convincing case for action on the Serbian aggression in Bosnia would be one that showed the blisters *here* from the burns *there.* The isolationist line held by our own newly ascendent authoritarians denies that there are any. And if you don't think the possibility of showing those connections involves contesting the legitimacy of capitalism, you haven't been paying attention to how and by whom information is structured in this country. Not *vulgar* Marxism then, but *obvious anti-capitalism* (obvious in Oppen's sense of what you cannot not see) is what is needed--not as an end, but as a starting point. And it is needed in every one of the contexts we've seen discussed in the past week, whether .com or .edu. What I wanted to say in response to Ron's initial "Exile on Main Street Post" was simply that anti-capitalism involves one in no necessary contradiction in education (necessary is the operative word here), whereas it most patently does in the various enterprises that have been named (Deutsche Bank, Philip Morris, C=O=M=P=U=T=E=R=L=A=N=D, etc.) as gainful employers. That is, you can universalize education; you can't universalize capitalism. (Since each time I say such things, someone insinuates that the position is criminally naive, can I here request that any such response take the trouble to explicitly expose the "error of my ways"? I am open to instruction, but insinuation just makes me anxious.) Two final things: does anyone have word of promising responses to the latest attempt to eliminate the NEA? I would be especially interested in hearing about ways that we can link the inevitable debate about its preservation to demands that it be made responsive to the needs of actually existing artists rather than exquisite careerists. And, finally, I just wanted to say what a pleasure the recent weeks' discussions have been--largely because of all the "new" voices now on the list. Thanks to everyone for the insights. Steve Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 06:07:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns Steve Evans wrote: >anti-capitalism involves >one in no necessary contradiction in education (necessary >is the operative word here), whereas it most patently does >in the various enterprises that have been named (Deutsche >Bank, Philip Morris, C=O=M=P=U=T=E=R=L=A=N=D, etc.) as >gainful employers. That is, you can universalize education; >you can't universalize capitalism. NOT! One need not be a rabid Althusserian to sing a chorus of Ideological State Apparatuses here. If, as I've been arguing, it's all one system, the only difference between town and gown is one of position within the same set, not "inside" vs. "outside" (There is, to repeat myself, no Out). The sole difference is that one of us is *pretending* that there is "no necessary contradiction" and one of us is not. Conversely, capitalism is far more universal than education will ever be. If by that we mean pervasive, in every object we see. And are. "Universal" in this culture means a white male who went to one of seven universities. (Brown, Steve, is one of those universities, even if it's the low end.) Everyone else is ranked accordingly to how "un-universal" (and thuglike) we might be. One of the great things about Hawaii is that the delicacy of that lava based ecology makes immediately evident how constructed even nature is. The vegetation came literally in the stomach of birds. And the commonplace birds of the 1950s are not those of the 1990s. Someone introduces a mongoose in one century and it becomes the rat, squirrel, possum, raccoon of the next, having that niche almost to itself. Even the nene goose, the state bird, is "indigenous" solely because its off-island origins have been lost. There are only a few hundred of these left in existance and the only ones I've seen "wild" were in a parking lot halfway up Haleakala on Maui, begging for handouts from tourists. Since the arrival of Europeans, everything in Hawaii has come through the introduction of capital, both American and more recently Japanese. The Hawaiin guitar came with agricultural workers from Southern California. The national issues tend to obscure all this, which is what Lenin thought they were there for. Like Eric, I believe it was, I come from a white trash California family, though in a college town (where I am the only member in four generations to have crossed over the town/gown divide and gone to school). Which means no doubt that I have a lot of ambivalent (or worse) feelings about some of these issues. But one illusion I do not carry about is of the university system as anything other than a state subsidized process for training workers, without which the corporations would have to do it directly. Have we forgotten that all of Chomsky's early grants for linguistics came directly from the Defense Department? An earlier generation of linguists was subsidized almost entirely by the church, in order to translate the Bible into whatever heathen tongue. "Necessary is the operative word here" indeed. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:04:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Re: haoles In-Reply-To: <199412090356.WAA22405@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, Susan Schultz wrote: I'm not sure that the kind of > discourse that I quote by Haunani Trask leads _necessarily_ to ethnic > cleansing, though it certainly bears resemblance with the rhetoric _of_ > ethnic cleansing. And that's part of the problem teaching the material; > do you opt with those who suggest that rhetoric is powerful but, > paradoxically, not a call to real action? Or do you take it as a call to > arms that is intended to include you? If there's a more moderate > position to take on the question, which I suspect there might be (being a > foolish optimist), will anyone in the heat of the moment actually listen? > My problem with taking the "not a call to real action" route is twofold, Susan. First, it seems to me the epitome of privilege, quite smug, in fact: it says, in effect, say what you want, we still have the power & we'll use it, so we're essentially safe & can watch the show. Second, it smudges the powerful bonds between this rhetoric and the rhetoric of ethnic cleansing, et. al., when the only real basis for distinguishing them seems to me that somehow we know that the writer in question wouldn't "really" do anything violent. But, like, is this fair to the nature of words & their work, their effect on readers, etc? One can (as I > and many of my colleagues do) cede authority in the classroom, present > oneself honestly as a "professor from the mainland with such and such > degrees), and then find that in that absence name-calling begins. I don't > know, it's a confusing situation to be in. I suppose in the case of > Baraka, which Eric cites, one needs to present a "fair" cross-section of > his work, and then argue out what is of value, and to whom. But the > ethical pressures are, in any case, immense, whether one includes or > excludes such material (and several students called me on the fact that > I'd xeroxed her--Trasks's--"racist white woman" poem, but not her > erotically charged celebrations of the land). At such a point the > instructor's discomfort with authority turns into a kind of nostalgia for > it! And alternative authorities are created in the classroom, some of them > overt, and some of them subversive, no matter how fair-minded you think > you're being. I was once in a class on African-American lit taught by a professor who deeply & thoughtfully believed in the therapeutic / pedagogical expression of anger. Lots of namecalling by those who were, at last! authorized to speak their minds--lots of verbal cruelty--lots of tarring with brushes wide and white, where students responded to what others hadn't said. Never a dull moment, and all quite validating, I'm sure, to those who were in power. [In power THERE--whatever their lousy status elsewhere.] Authority happens. It feels good to hate. I think we need to get over a "discomfort with authority" and focus on just what sorts of authority we want to dismantle, and what we'll foster in their place. Culture, after all, abhors a vaccum. More to follow, not to the board. EMS ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:22:51 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Dec 1994 06:07:59 -0800 from In the Buddhist tradition there's a concept of "right livelihood". It is not related to degree of complicity in the economic system, but to the kind of consciousness certain occupations create. And in a similar way, I remember Robert Duncan, through his contact with Levinas, describing to me the Talmudic notion of giving just measure in business transactions because it is understood that the just weight and measure is given before God. He felt that in the same way the poet gives just weight and measure when she recognizes that the just weight and measure is not before the reader only but a larger totality. The question is how does the work we do to earn our livelihood inform our work as poets? For me, the question was settled accidentally. After avoiding steady work as assiduously as possible, I fell into part time teaching, accidentally landed a full time job in a community college and eventually by fluke at a university. For Eric and others for whom these decisions are still active, I think it is worth considering the question in the "right livelihood' sense-- that is, how can I make my life coherent? Ron's assessment of the university as a capitalist training center does not speak to my experience as a teacher. Rodger Kamenetz enrodg@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Academy, etc. I felt it would be better to respond to Eric Pape's impassioned response to my post in a message sent to him not all, and so did, mentioning it here that it not be thought i'd let his words go buy unnoticed. tom mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:07:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Academy, etc. My advice to quit grad school (but I don't think I used the phrase "drop out" wch he puts in quote -- yet perhaps I did) seems to have found a tender spot in Steven Shoemaker's mental anatomy? Does he think I meant it literally? Does he think I meant it just for him? Why, specifically why, were my words "self-righteous?" As to "the academy as a working environment," whatever does that phrase mean? Does it refer to the ego floating above history and choosing an environment in which to "work?" Or does it refer to working conditions in the academic industry? I guess grad school would be one way to enter "the academy as a working environment," although it does seem more and more that it comes to approximate rather a formal training in being unemployed and even unemployable. Perhaps, too, there are other ways to reach that goal. Charles Bernstein, whom Steven invokes against my blanket admonitions, would, alas for Steven's intentions, find his place on my list: someone who quit - maybe even dropped out of - grad school! I don't wnat to be glib; I mean, rather, I'm not being glib, so I don't want Steven to take me that way. A year or so ago, I met Reid Whittemore, ex-Library of Congress poet, at a party. Before he understood that I was Jewish and therefore an exotic enemy ("Maimonides? Who's that." -- this man is a professor at U of Md.), he leaned over conspiratorially and whispered "there are too many poets, if you know what I mean." I was certainly not meant to understand that there were too many white male wasp poets (real poets) you may be sure, but that the world was mispopulated with a rising tide of expression from all the wrong places. I would not wish Steven Shoemaker to understand me in this way; I don't want to de-populate the academy (it's amusing, btw, to affect this god-the-father mode of expression; as if the academy would fulminate or grow passive depending on my word). The narrow reading list of our times is devoted overwhelmingly to a consideration of the loss of autonomy of the self and its expressions in speech and thought, the self's explosion or dissolution. Am I alone in finding the conjunction of this development in western philosophical/intellectual history curiously aligned with a moment in which other traditions have arrived on its grounds to make a claim for such autonomy. A time in which black jew arab female speak a sophical world of thought which is black jew arab female? Itis not the "ethnicity" wch interests me in this, nor the localness (w/ its Heidegerrian and Duns Scotian tone I find detestable: the value of place, forget it ), but the opposite its appearance in every case in a foreign place, the insertion border edge and frontier issues of accountability and recountability to an other exactly in "place" so that mentally there is no location that is not on a border, no place that is not also a leaving that place. That, Steven, is what I meant by telling you, personally this time, very personally, to quit grad school. Don't burn the books, just burn the reading list. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:31:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns Steve Evans writes: What I wanted to say in response to Ron's initial "Exile on Main Street Post" was simply that anti-capitalism involves one in no necessary contradiction in education (necessary is the operative word here), whereas it most patently does in the various enterprises that have been named (Deutsche Bank, Philip Morris, C=O=M=P=U=T=E=R=L=A=N=D, etc.) as gainful employers. That is, you can universalize education; you can't universalize capitalism. While nodding to his hilarious and brilliantly snide conflation of Computerland and Language magazine/poetry, I feel obliged to mention that Steve seems to be using the word "necessary," his "operative word," somewhat unusally. Does he mean that in the academy it is not "necessary" to notice that you do not have an anti-capitalixt job but you can hardly escape noticing this fact working at Deutsche Bank? Well, bully for you herr professor! Re: "...you can universalize education; you can't universalize capitalism," are you hiring? Or, less comic, you're wrong Steve. You can particularize education, you can stratify education, indeed for most people you can eliminate education. But, "you" can't eliminate capitalism, or, to put the matter concretely, who is the "you" who can eliminate capitalism? Please don't assume this as praise of capitalism (I leave that to the opening pages of the communist manifesto), nor that a hortatory enthusiasm will do in response to my not-at-all rhetorical question. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 12:15:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert A Harrison Subject: Stained Meat Tom Mandel says: >very little evidence of a point of view of color I'm here. Color is only partially the right word in my context. I'm Panamanian-American. My silence is a point of view. I'm sure there are others, Tom. >unhidden in trashy even disgraceful joking that there is no relationship >between your person and your position, as if these were different in some >principled way This comment doesn't seem right to me. There IS a difference between me and the positions I've held in my life. From construction, to house painting, to truck driving, to teaching calculus and Pascal programming, to programming a real time accounting system for Johnson Controls, to painting opera sets, to whatever. Isn't this obvious? As to Paul Hoover's comments on Amiri Baraka getting 5000 for a reading, seems like sour grapes to me. Would you, Paul, turn down $5000 for a reading? Not that I agree with all of Baraka's politics, I'm definitely against any kind of racism or ethnocentrism, but, I hope he continues to get lots of $5000 readings. I for one don't think working for a corporation provides anyone with any kind perceptual advantage. I find it interesting that so much of this discussion revolves around how we work. How we make a living seems to me to be related mostly to our relationship with power. Maybe there's more to things than that. Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:35:12 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:31:00 -0500 from I wanted to say quickly, in all fairness to Tom, that I did not mean to accuse his of pointing his post at me. When I said he had me "pegged" I was simply giving him credit for very perceptively figuring out who I was: grad student, inexperienced, white. My posting was meant to apply generally to the whole academy debate. Thanks, Eric (enpape@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 07:49:07 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: haoles In-Reply-To: <9412091420.AA09859@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> I'm not sure you can have it both ways, Eric; if the classroom is to be a place where therapeutic anger authorizes students, then it's possible to regard Trask's poem as just that: a therapeutic exercise of getting angry. Though the word "therapy" suggests that somehow we'll all work through this in the end. My problem with equating the poem with "ethnic cleansing" is that the Hawaiian sovereignty movement is a separatist movement, not an imperial one (as in the "former Yugoslavia"). Trask may want more of us haoles (and in this number she'd include local Asian Americans) to leave the state, but I don't get the sense that she wants to line us up and shoot us. In the context of her entire book, Trask's position is a bit more complicated than this poem suggests: there's a love poem to her haole partner of many years in there, too (although he's presented as a "good haole" who supports her struggle to the utmost). A note from yesterday's paper. "Bumpy" Kanahele, who led the year long occupation of Makapu'u beach, is quoted as saying that tourism and sovereignty are not entirely incompatible. He denied saying that he'd ever advocated violence against tourists: "What he did mean, he said, was that if the Hawaiians do not get what they want, things could get violent. But rather than let that happen, his organization would once again go the tourists and tell them their presence is lending support to an economy that is based on an illegal government in land improperly seized from the Hawaiians" (in 1893). After independence, and because of it, he argues, a better grade of tourist will come to Hawaii (an interesting spin on tourism, certainly). In an aside, the article reports that The Nation of Hawaii is hooked into the internet, where they display their flag and their demands. A new take on the bumpersticker, Think Local, Act Global (or is it the other way around?): think net, act internet? Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 13:24:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Dec 1994 06:07:59 -0800 from Ron, you are in too much a hurry to dismiss what I wrote last night. I said anti-capitalism as a project does not interfere with any necessary moment in the educative process. I did not say that education is not deeply scarred and distorted within current capitalist conditions. As for universal = white male Ivy League, please. You and I can both discern the difference between false universalism and true universalism. Brown is a patently and overtly anti-universalist University. One of the central campus battles in the years I've been here has indeed been over its practice of "need- aware" admission policies. Though consistently blocked, this has been a struggle to *universalize* access to the symbolic and real capital this institution generates. I have no interest in "pretending" anything. I, in fact, don't take this discussion to be primarily or importantly about myself (though I know what Tom Mandel would say to that). I am saying that if "capitalism is more universal than education ever will be" then all of us are getting burned. Knee-jerk anti-unversalism is one of the tiredest tropes of current (a)social thought. Try explaining to me an oppositional position on Bosnia that doesn't involve universalistic claims of one kind or another. Try explaining why your position on identity politics as the real vulgar marxism makes sense without referring to universalization. In brief, what ever happened to that fibonacci series of yours? Gone with the Laclau-Mouffite wind? It is fine, though exceedingly abstract, to say there is "no outside." But at Brown there certainly is (hence an "admission" process), and where you work also (hence hiring/firing). And on a different scale, there is very importantly an "outside" when it comes to distribution of resources under capitalist social relations. Illiteracy is a way of being "outside" the alphabet; starvation is a way of being "outside" the chi-chi supermarket. I'm "in"--I attend Brown (and yes there are people here--namely all the ones directly in my "field" in the Eng.Dept.-- who oppose my research and teaching practices), I eat and read, I'm having a party for other people who also do these things later tonight. But I'm under no illusion that cause I'm here, everyone is. And I subscribe to the axiom that you cannot intend your own autonomy without intending that of everyone else (universalization). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 14:59:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:31:47 -0500 from Tom, I'm afraid I can't take credit for the conflation of Computerland/Language: whoever designed a flier for a DC reading of Ron, Kit, and Bill Luoma (perhaps Bill designed it? Or Rod Smith) last year gets the credit on that one. Let me assure you, were I hiring I'd try to tempt you from your current work--with an emancipation clause in your contract. The "you who can eliminate capitalism" is not singular but plural, not pre-existent but made, not a faded bumper sticker but a still distant prospect. Is that too hortatory and enthusiastic? It ain't me alone, and it ain't my "mind" (which had to undergo a lot of changes in arriving at this position--very little assisted by University professors, tho there were *some*) that's centrally at issue here. I was struck by the following sentences in a recently published article by Ernest Mandel. They perhaps fall in the category of inflam- matory, of setting the volume too loud for this particular context and its specific possibilities. Mandel says: Hunger and poverty have risen to the point where U.N. officials speak about one billion people living below the poverty line, very conservatively defined. Sixteen million children die every year from hunger and curable diseases. This means that every four years the same number of children die as the total number of victims during the whole of World War II, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, and the Bengal famine included. Every four years a world war against third world children: There you have the reality of today's imperialism/ capitalism with all its barbaric implications. Even with your antipathy towards Adorno, Tom, wouldn't you agree that at the very minimum, utopia would mean an end to such decimation? Finally, as I mentioned also in my post to Ron, if there is a moment in the educative process that necessarily en- tails capitalism, I've not yet heard of it. Learning pre-existed capital, learning can outlast capital. In fact, the only sum larger than the knowledge capital has accumulated is the sum it has concretely denied. Poetry is part of the latter sum, which is one of the reasons this discussion is appropriate on this list. Steve Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:18:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412091641.LAA04319@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Tom Mandel" at Dec 9, 94 11:07:32 am No Tom, i didn't think you meant the advice to quit grad school just for me, which helps explain why i liked Eric's reply. As for the "tender spot" in my "mental anatomy"--is that what one needs in order to be, uh, stimulated by your words? As for why i thought some of those words were "self-righteous"--I keep thinking of that corny old joke about how if you "assume" too much, you make an "ass" of "u" and "me." Perhaps u didn't mean your advice "literally"; no doubt i missed levels and levels of irony. You also said "your industry is headed for a collapse; it has lost all justification." Mebbe that wasn't "literal" either, but i wanted to indicate my belief that despite its troubled future, its horrendous contradictions etc., there are still some good reasons to try to work within the academy. (That Charles got there thru a route other than grad school doesn't seem to me of crucial significance in this (my) context). And your argument, Tom, about the "narrow reading list of our times" doesn't really convince me otherwise. But if it's a matter of the collapse of inside & outside, of being in the "place" that is grad school yet also "leaving that place" at the same time, i think i've pretty much achieved that conditon already. But this discussion cld quickly get tedious (if it hasn't already) for the list, so if you really want, Tom, to advise me "very personally" then perhaps you shld write me at ss6r@fermi.clas.virginia.edu. As for the "narrow reading list" to which you allude, and its relation to the question of what can be said/done in the academy, i'm not quite sure i follow the whole of your argument. But i have heard your point about the trend toward "deconstruction" coinciding curiously w/ the need for autonomous declarations by "other traditions" made many times before, *within*, so to speak, the hallowed halls of academe. Maybe the list and its attendant discourse isn't quite so narrow as you think. And perhaps i flatter myself, but i think i've put together some pretty interesting reading lists for my classes, lists that have included, for example, many people currently participating in this "list." And i've also consistently found that, despite the odds against it, some pretty surprising things can happen in the classroom--things i haven't seen happen elsewhere very often. But more about that another time perhaps. steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 16:13:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns WELL, STEVE, I AM SKEPTICAL ABOUT WHETHER WE SHOULD DARE MAKE SOME KIND OF CLAIM THAT EDUCATION OR ONE'S ANTI-CAPITALIST INVOLVEMENT IN ACADEMIA CAN ACTUALLY BE PRIVILEGED OVER THOSE WHO WORK AT C=O=M=P=U=T=E=R=L=A=N=D OR MCDONALDS FOR THAT MATTER, but i don't think you're 'criminally naive' either--if we can admit our own implication in the whole mess while still being aware that we ARE actually more exploited than exploiters, whether in academia or out, maybe then however there's, er, "hope"--but of course that means putting ourselves "on the line" as it were more... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 16:31:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns steve, just read your new post, i had responded to the earlier one and then realized my argument was similar to Silliman's (if not Mandel's) but now I realize that I too misread your statement as claiming that academia is "beyond ideology" and am glad to see you are not arguing from that position, but what is this "autonomy" we should fight for if not the autonomy of "bourgeois individuals"? If capitalism can not be truly universalized to suit the needs of all, are you positing a kind of anti-oedipus anti-capitalism of anarchy as an alternative, as it seems you might, or something quite different? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 17:12:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: poetry trek: generations In-Reply-To: <199412091641.LAA04319@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Tom Mandel" at Dec 9, 94 11:07:32 am I'm starting to wonder if this G1/G2 stuff has more resonance/explanatory power than i had realized. This is not at all to be somehow separatist or to suggest an insurmountable "gap," but i'm curious how a discussion confined to G1-ers wld look different from this one. Surely it wld lose much, but i wonder what it wld gain? Just speculating.... steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:20:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Exile on Strained Meat : or notes on professions, academic etc. X-To: Tom Mandel In-Reply-To: <01HKDIAYLIPE9H0RKG@asu.edu> Tom Mandel's comments were very interesting, and I apologize for the length of this response: On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, Tom Mandel wrote: > 1. For 5 years during WWII neither the English nor any other > allied power laid an intentional single bomb across the railroad > tracks that led how many thousands of jews gypsies gay people > per day? to doom. Does this make them thugs? No, it makes them lame. As in lame-o. Go gently into the night is their theme, not mine.... > 2. I was a grad student for 6 years, have taught in 3 universities, > have worked for large corporations, as well as quasi-gov'tal > organizations, and have written and lived poetry off and on all > my life. Without question, and by metaphorical orders of magnitude, > the most serializing, cutthroat, thoughtless and non-oppositional > (i.e. slavish) environment I ever lived in was the academy. Ok, one more response to this position and I'm through with the issue: I won't argue with your experience, Tom, but mine is something quite different. Competition is the national ethic, is it any surprise it exists in the university? I have friends, peers, partners, and even those who disagree with me here; I have done creative and innovative work that has given me great satisfaction as a writer. That our experiences don't gib is not cause for us to divide ourselves--right?--since we have some interests that keep us here talking? What are they? > Nothing is more > foolish than to spend one's days distinguishing between on the one > hand vulgar marxism and on the other hand a marxism appropriate to > the changes in the organization of capitol. None of us can know > at all what the structure of capitol is. For one thing we are part > ofit, for another only a bounded thing can be "analyzed" (but, see > above), and it is not that. And, finally, why do we wish to constrain > the mind to appropriate response, when it is the mind that makes > that world of capitol. Make something else. Oh, gosh, man, gee, we're all trying to create ideas or "theories" about disparate phenomena about how particular occur in the world, if someone were to show me a model of economic-cultural interaction that accounted for some of the events of the world it would be good enough for me until someone else showed me a better model. What I mean is, I'm not trying to constrain but remain free from what you rightly see as "appropriate" responses. Yes, the mind makes capital--with an a and an o--but is it my mind? Just because we are in it and part of it should not discourage one from exploring it. If anyone would > pay me, I'd teach for myself (I do seem to know a great deal; drop > over some time - you probably know a lot too), but they don't so. . . . Hey, Tom, I'm staying with a friend in DC, who, by the way lives on Tilden street, and I was wondering if I could take you up on your offer to stop by--I can't pay you though, ok? If you read this I'll be back on sunday to read my mail--I leave on monday--so if you're serious please let me know. It would be interesting to hash over these differences in person. > 8. Grad student, quit school. But, I can't tell whether Steve Evans > or Patrick Phillips or Jeffery Timmons or Eric Pape or others (very > few women, very little evidence of a point of view of color, very > little sense of a specifically Jewish pov, very little in any sense > specific to anything whatever, informed by anything not on the other > guy, yeh guy's reading list. If you are on faculties, quit. Anyway, > Ron's right; your industry is heading for a collapse, it has lost > all justification. Ai, ai, ai, ai. . . . Geez, isn't this the sort of response you yourself are indicating is what's wrong with the university, with the competitive cutthroat world? I mean, come on, what you're saying is I have nothing to say, nothing interesting, anyway, which seems to me to be precisely the attitude you find as so oppressive in the university. Quit? Why don't you join? Let's find some common ground already, what we're suffering from is the divide between critics and poets--a false division. . . . I'm a poet. I'm a critic. Nothing specific? Huh? Didn' you see my comments on Swarzenegger (sp)? Lost all justification? I'm confused. If it weren't for the university I think the survival of poetry would be a great deal more tenuous than it is. Anyway, I don't shy from Tom's comments, but I think this is simply not useful in terms of learning from each other, or from a spritit of comradery (sp)--which he himself suggests is what he is after. I have to wonder. . . . See next comments: > 11. Oh. In 8 above, you may think I'm being dismissive. Or glib, > in advising you to quit. You have families, you have to have a > job. Sure, no problem. Nor do I take the Platonic position that > a slave is one by nature or essence : if not, he'd be dead. After > all, I was fired, I wasn't offed! I prefer the Jewish position, > be kind to the slave. In the jubilee year, free all the slaves > (what the heck, most of them will enslave themselves again). > (of course, that's only one of the jewish positions, i.e. > positions in the rabbinic tradition - which is always what *I* > mean by the term "jewish"). Hm. There's more here I have to say, but can we put aside what appears to be a growing divide? I mean, honestly, whether we work in or out of a particular institution we have a common set of concerns and rather than . . . . Well, you get the picture. I just want to say, also, that I have not tried to divide as much as draw attention to what some have described as being "isolated" when that is not my experience. If you want me to be more specific I could. . . . Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:28:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: con in on late night X-To: Abby Coykendall In-Reply-To: <01HKDIB6TQAA9I5DPJ@asu.edu> I agree with Abby's comments whole heartedly, I just thought, too, that it was interesting that in the context of the discussion of isolated academics that an academic like Paglia is as popular as she obviously is; and, I think, this also has to do with some of her more "conservative" positions on issues like the canon. She is funny and smart, and, sure, what she does in freeing feminism of a "bad" connotation is an interesting point, but is she really the sort of feminist you want on television promoting feminism? Steinum was supposed to talk here in Tempe, AZ yesterday but cancelled--illness. I agree a feminism made up of different points of view would be a way to free it from negative connotations, but what about her views of rape? Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:32:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Exile on Main Street X-To: "k.lindberg" In-Reply-To: <01HKDO5Q5FR69I5EIP@asu.edu> On Thu, 8 Dec 1994, k.lindberg wrote: > I do think that it behooves poets and philosophers (funny work,that last) > to (seek to) address THE WORLD, from which there is no escape, anyway. > Discussions of Marxism, as much as they escape concern over academic > or p.r. capital, are most important. However, given the complex > investments, both utopian and intellectual, in Tito's Yugoslavia, > ironies abound if one attempts to reconcile such discussions with the war. Yes. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:58:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Academy, etc. X-To: eric pape In-Reply-To: <01HKER4P6FB69H0WEG@asu.edu> Thanks for being specific, eric. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 16:22:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns In-Reply-To: <01HKF4Y2QVXE9I4V5W@asu.edu> On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Steve Evans wrote: > Not *vulgar* Marxism then, but *obvious anti-capitalism* > (obvious in Oppen's sense of what you cannot not see) is > what is needed--not as an end, but as a starting point. > And, finally, I just wanted to say what a pleasure > the recent weeks' discussions have been--largely because > of all the "new" voices now on the list. Thanks to > everyone for the insights. First, I, also, want to say that I have enjoyed being on the list immensely. I have learned a great deal in the past few weeks interaction with y'all and look forward to continuing the banter. I'm leaving for a few days and won't be able to write for about a month, but I'll be back better than ever in mid-jan. Second, I'd like to know, more precisely, about Steve's view of "obvious anti-capitalism." It sounds intriguing. Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 22:19:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle In-Reply-To: <01HKG4F5OYMCANCCQ3@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> I direct a small press, Chax Press, and even though that work is barely funded, the position is certainly involved with capital, having had some funding from the state in various of its contexts, working with printers who use papers made from trees, etc. I also am the director of a larger nonprofit organization devoted to the book arts, a position more entwined with corporate and foundation funding, the state again, which also runs programs in conjunction with at least four universities, yet which generally positions itself as concerned with "the artist" on the one hand and "the community" on the other (& hopefully the hands are entertwined). We don't often think of its necessary involvement with capital, but we should. That said, it still strikes me that, although there has been a lot of intriguing conversation in this forum on this issue of where we work and its relation to the world, it has largely also been guys talking about their jobs as the place where they relate to said world. That seems entirely limiting. At least an equal force in how I understand myself and my relations with what is outside me is my family, including the immediate one of wife and two children, ages 5 and 19 months, but extending far and wide in both space and time, most recently made poignant by the death of a 36-year-old cousin who was the high school principal in the barely one high-school town of Clinton, Oklahoma, and his funeral services which required a football field to accomodate those who wished to memorialize him. Only one of the ways family leads to a much wider "community." I'm not certain where I want to take this, just that, although I don't want to speak for anyone else, I know that contributors to this discussion, including Ron Silliman and Tom Mandel, are significantly involved in their immediate familial and human relationships and that these provide a point of entrance into the world at least as important to our politics and poetics as do our places of employment. I don't think I'd want to turn this forum into a series of forays into the poetics of diapers, but I do think there is something missing in terms of how we are thinking of ourselves as a community (actually there are probably many things missing). We boys & our jobs are not the only stories, and certainly not even the only human activity we undertake which bears on our relations to capital and more. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 04:02:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle In response to charles alexander, yes even men must realize the "personal is the political" as it were, because as 'talkers" or "yakkers" with our "highfallutin'" ideas about things we men (since it is mostly men) have really not 'evolved' much since the time of LYSISTRATA, and though I don't wish to once again return to a reified "essentialist" grid of "male sphere" vs "female sphere" in the "old fashioned" sense, certainly such a grid haunts far more than these discussions on the "net" as it were. At the same time, there are those of us who are not family-men (whether by choice or chance, I cannot tell, "alas") who are not necessarily any less "responsible" or "engaged" with community, etc. on levels such as you suggest. Though i don't wish to criticize the "mainstream bourgeois family" as LESS IMPORTANT than the "bourgeois quasi-bohemian lifestyle" I do wish to question a possible assumption that claims that THE BOHO is more decadent than the FAMILY MAN. (and this is hopefully not an attemptm on my part to merely reinscribe the dialectics that have informed the "town' vs "gown" debate under different terms). I wish you well with your family, but "the family" does not work for all of us, and I'd like to see what "common ground" there can be between it and the "boho" (for lack of a better word) rather than merely be antagonistic context than the mere bohemian--at least since the 80's and the rise of the L poets. Anyway, what does anyone make of this? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 08:15:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns Steve - In an overwhelming example of "lest we forget" I must report that it was I who instigated the DC reading by my friends and C'land poets Kit, Ron and Alan and Bill ! I certainly saw the flyer many times and yes Rod did it - so he gets the credit for clevers and I for, duh... Looking back at your post, I see that you didn't mention Alan Bernheimer's participation in the reading. Alan is a wonderful poet tho not what you'd call a prolific fellow. I hadn't heard him read in a decade (in wch we mostly lived in the same town) and perhaps half the reading was of works I'd heard him read before. The new stuff was terrific too. Alan was part of that angle of the then young language crowd that came out of Yale and moved to SF. Kit Robinson and Steve Benson were his classmates, and now I can't remember whether Bob Perelman was also in that bunch of college friends. I think so. If you don't know his work, it is collected in two volumes (and we are all waiting for a third, Alan): State Lounge (Tuumba, 1981) and Cafe Isotope (The Figures, 1980). More or less on (at least yokable to) our current subjects is his poem Carapace (wch I hope he will give me retrospective permission to reproduce here): CARAPACE The face of a stranger is a privilege to see each breath a signature and the same sunset fifty years later though familiarity is an education who likes what most? high rounded cornices with baby moon hubcaps played by the wind electricity travels from time to time on the surface of these lips thoroughly tropical pleasure forms the customary features combination eyeteeth and semaphore everything I touch turns to flesh or vice versa Alan Bernheimer in _Cafe Isotope_ tom ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 08:56:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Academy, etc. to Steve Shoemaker: gee, I think you've agreed with me and gotten some distance on that by being sarcastic. Perhaps I am the cause, in the sense of having been unintentionally ironic; if so, apologies. I am not a fan of irony, as I think it tends to strengthen the point to be ironized. E.g. if your critique of the academy is ironic, you may be taken to be an academic manque-ay (you know, sour grapes...). As to: "i think i've put together some pretty interesting reading lists for my classes, lists that have included, for example, many people currently participating in this "list." And i've also consistently found that, despite the odds against it, some pretty surprising things can happen in the classroom--things i haven't seen happen elsewhere very often." I see no reason why this shdn't be true and I'm glad for all participants if it is. It seems obvious to me that we should distinguish between teaching and learning, which go on at all times and all levels and are activities where the deepest human resources are engaged, and the institutional nexus we call the academy. The discourse above is a consistent extension of, say Plato's 7th letter (is my reference here accurate? the "spark"), and doesn't support an institution, much less a current status thereof. I'm sure such events happened in Heidegger's seminars in the late '30's too - would they invalidate a critique of the German universities under Hitler? (no comparison or other cheap shot intended here) It is no more relevant to offer instances of teaching/learning as a justification of the institution in its current condition than it is to evidence the spiritual mystery attendant to life and thought as a justification for the Inquisitional auto da fe (tho of course, this is just what was done). Anyway, the point isn't a rejection of an institution but a contribution to it; the strongest point you might make, you don't: if you want to change an institution you must participate in it, give some big part of your life to it, in whatever form it allows you to do so. So doing gives one a valid position, and justifies beyond clever contradiction your "belief that despite its troubled future, its horrendous contradictions etc., there are still some good reasons to try to work within the academy." Good! As to my self-righteousness: sorry, it ain't me babe. Your "corny old joke" is quoted without an application. In other words, if I say something it's because I've observed it, thought about it, lived it, and so concluded - provisionally. You don't have to deal with it, but if you want to do so, the challenge is to reply at the level of the statement. Nothing assumed. That said, the words of mine you quote : "your industry is headed for a collapse; it has lost all justification" are incomplete and misleading. I meant, and shd have said, "all economic justification." I.e. I don't think the economy of the coming century will have the same need for educated workers that capitalism of the 2d half of the nineteenth century discovered and institutionalized as a) mass literacy and b)a large workforce with flexible, "analytic" skills. Therefore, I see the large institutions which were built up out of those requirements as likely to collapse, the class of "clerks" as likely to shrink, literacy and verbal skill as likely once again to become specialized professionalisms, etc. Obviously, this does not mean I'm in favor of such developments; I do however see the endless marginalization and mediation of the application of ideas, all that to me seems characteristic of the amorph that dubs itself "theory," as evidence in that direction. Nor that I'm right, gloomily enthusiastic soul that I am. As to my animadversions re: "the narrow reading list," it would be fair to ask me to point to what I think ought to be, but is not, on that list - if we go much further with that thread I'll be forced to contribute an enumeration. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 09:42:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Personal Blisters/Impersonal Burns to Steve Evans: The facts Ernest Mandel cites are horrible. Nor is the barbarism of our time at question, a barbarism not exactly restricted to what he calls "imperialism/ capitalism" (i.e. internationalized western-style economies). His interpretation is at question, however. ALL interpretations are at question, Steve. And, yes, this is turning the volume too high, flipping up the bass, and boogieing to the rhythm we already know and love. I won't yield to you either in my horror of this world nor in my deep need for a radical critique of it. I just don't think you have proposed in these words anything contributing to such a critique. Indeed, is it possible to cite horror and take satisfaction in it as supporting one's "position?" Is it impossible? Is it something only the other guy, the bad guy, does? As to: The "you who can eliminate capitalism" is not singular but plural, not pre-existent but made, not a faded bumper sticker but a still distant prospect. Is that too hortatory and enthusiastic? that's right, it is. Is the "still distant" place where you see this plural you a "not... faded" picture of a future reality? Is it a carrot? Is your mind, producing this verbal metaphor set, outside of history? A history in which you would be able to find many other such pictures. Pictures to which at you must submit yours, as one in a long series. A series which requires a very close attention as to how we must understand it. An understanding that would allow us not to turn up the volume, not to cite horror at each other as if failing to agree with your, anyone's, interpretation of that horror were to make oneself complicit with horror. A horror applicable at large levels and small: a friend of mine's brother was murdered this week. This week and every week, I am someone's brother, are you? Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 13:39:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412101357.IAA16947@sarah.albany.edu> from "Tom Mandel" at Dec 10, 94 08:56:06 am I have been working in the Academy since 1971. The only other job I have had in my adult life was working in a warehouse. I prefer the academy. It seems to me that this thread--unlike most threads on this list-- has been generally ill-informed and bogged down in stereotypes. The academy, like every thing else in Babylon, is a mess. It is the most conservative cultural institutions. The archives for which it is responsible _is_, or used to be, THE culture. Its function is as an adjunct to the human genome, and it systematically inscribes the code on generation after generation. Or tries to, often with minimal success. Of course, I am speaking here of the institution as a whole, not just graduate school in English (this has been deep confusion in this discussion). The institution is almost wholly mediated by the alphabet-- and the alphabet suddenly turns out to be a relatively insignificant medium. The kind of reading that the New Critics thought to teach to, if not the masses, a very large middle class is increasingly a specialized skill, like say being able to solve differential equations. A large majority of our 1000-plus English majors here at Albany are pre-law or pre-M.B.A. (Business schools like students who can read and write). Of course, most graduate programs in English have refused to notice this fact, and wouldn't know what to do about it if they would notice it. Conservative institutions are by there nature not prepared to deal with this kind of change. But academia is not in as bad a crack as, say, the auto industry which has failed to notice that their business is likely to be seriously impeded when exhaust pollution does permanent damage to the biosphere. I would say my work in the university has been fairly successful. Every year I encounter a few people who like to read and their adrenalin gets up over thinking, and talking, who in this culture are likely to feel that they are crazy or worthless, and I tell them that they are not crazy or worthless, and some of them believe me. This seems to me, given the circumstances, fairly useful. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 14:14:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412101357.IAA99018@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Tom Mandel" at Dec 10, 94 08:56:06 am Tom Mandel writes: > It is no more relevant to offer instances of teaching/learning as a > justification of the institution in its current condition than it is to > evidence the spiritual mystery attendant to life and thought as a justificatio > for the Inquisitional auto da fe (tho of course, this is just what was done). > Those "instances of teaching/learning" are, for better or worse, in some sense organized and permitted by the "institution" that is the academy. So it seems to me fair to adduce those instances in a discussion of said institution. I agree, however, that that is only one part of the story, & not adequate on its own without attention to the larger structural/cultural/ corporate context. But all those levels, including the level of classroom "instances," are imbricated. > That said, the words of mine you quote : "your industry is headed for a > collapse; it has lost all justification" are incomplete and misleading. I > meant, and shd have said, "all economic justification." I.e. I don't think the > economy of the coming century will have the same need for educated workers tha > capitalism of the 2d half of the nineteenth century discovered and > institutionalized as a) mass literacy and b)a large workforce with flexible, > "analytic" skills. Therefore, I see the large institutions which were built up > out of those requirements as likely to collapse, the class of "clerks" as > likely to shrink, literacy and verbal skill as likely once again to become > specialized professionalisms, etc. Well, there's a big difference between "all justification" and "all economic justification" and i don't think a more "complete" quotation on my part cld have smoothed over that gap. At any rate, i responded to the first phrase, hearing a different meaning than you unpack here. > As to my animadversions re: "the narrow reading list," it would be fair to ask > me to point to what I think ought to be, but is not, on that list - if we go > much further with that thread I'll be forced to contribute an enumeration. > Alright, let's have it! steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 14:26:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle In-Reply-To: <199412100907.EAA86128@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Chris Stroffolino" at Dec 10, 94 04:02:03 am Whew. We seem to be hitting a stage here, where we all feel compelled to spell out our "distinctions," which frequently get expressed as binary oppositions: town/gown, G1/G2, boho/family, men/women, whites/people of color. Probably this process is inevitable, and hopefully a prelude to new and productive "negotiations" among various "subject positions." It's an old question by now, but apparently still relevant: as we follow the process thru how do we go about discarding the dualistic habit of mind? Is it really possible, even in our supposedly pomo universe? steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 15:17:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clint Burnham Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Re: Eagleton Quote In-Reply-To: <9412080624.AA02557@portnoy.canrem.com> I find Eagleton's work quite helpful. He's worked through the relations between theory and marxism and literature very well, although he has blind spots. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 15:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clint Burnham Organization: CRS Online (Toronto, Ontario) Subject: Re: Punk In-Reply-To: <9412080657.AA04068@portnoy.canrem.com> George: too much of the music is so well done that it's impossible to characterize punk as poorly played music. some of it still now, despite the label slacker, is technically brilliant and, as bill bissett would say, raging. clint ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 20:36:04 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Dec 1994 20:50:40 -0500 from James Sherry's comments on internationalism are quite to the point and, for me, heartening. Patricularly his closing sentence advocating active shaping as opposed to after-the-fact resistance. With that in mind, what I'd like to see here is a discussion related to the necessity of forming alliances between so-called "intellectual classes" (to use a Wall St. Journal epithet) & the used-to-be-called "Reagan Democrats" who remain in the moral and intellectual stupor massaged into them by Gingrich & Co. Face it, with the results of the last election, Amerika's going to be getting a lot crueler before it gets any more compassionate. Having worked for one of the world's largest management consultants (specializing in "business process reengineering" = downsizing), I can report that *this* particular aspect of "internationalism" is a juggernaut that does not appear to be slowing down I get the feeling that the earnest postings I have read on this list may come to nothing if intellectuals (such as the members of POETICS) cannot devise a method of narrowing what has becoming a widening *cultural* gap in this country. Mr. Gingrich only succeeds because he recognizes fertile ground on which to capitalize. I've got a piece of stale, moldy news: we're walking on the same piece of ground, and we'd better search for potential allies from outside our rather circumscribed communities. I probably sound like I'm advocating James's second (undesirable) course: resistance over pro-active shaping. On the contrary, but I seem to come up with conflicting ideas on how to begin on the course James advocates. I would like him to elaborate on his final sentence, and would hope others may join in. Regards, Marc Nasdor abohc@cunyvm.cuny.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 13:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412110220.VAA25795@sarah.albany.edu> from "Marc Nasdor" at Dec 10, 94 08:36:04 pm Mark Nasdor writes: > With that in mind, what I'd like to see here is a discussion > related to the necessity of forming alliances > between so-called "intellectual classes" (to use a Wall St. > Journal epithet) & > the used-to-be-called "Reagan Democrats" who remain in the moral and > intellectual stupor massaged into them by Gingrich & Co. On what possible grounds might such an alliance be based? So called Reagan Democrats, who are little different from Reagan Republicans, are devoted solely, as far as I can see, to greed. I would suggest that corporate down-sizing is being done-- like everything else-- backwards. Rather than having businesses devoted to downsizing corporations, we should have businesses devoted to restructuring cities that could function without automobiles. The downsizing of corporations would then follow as a natural consequence. The great repressed fact--comparable to the repression of sexuality in the 19th century-- is that the earth cannot long support the levels of exploitation it is now supporting. It certainly can't support several billion Asians, AFricans, and Latin Americans at the level of material waste that everyone enjoys witnessing on satelite TV. It can't even support a significant number of excluded Americans and Europeans at that level. It seems to be two things need to happen: 1) We need something like a kind of psychoanalysis to bring repressed greed to consciousness; 2) We need to find something other than material extravagance as a motivating human factor. Of course, conceiving a viable politics on the basis of these principles is a difficult, but nothing less appears viable. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 16:37:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. So, Prof. Byrd, Herr Doktor, how do we begin this psychoanalysis of greed? Maybe instread of a couch a bed of nails? maybe block off all the highways that lead from the city to the suburbs at 5PM??? Maybe dose people with psychedelics instead of the mainstay of the bourgeois psychoanalytic industry rhymes with "greed")...Ah, utopia, utopia, there's gotta be more to life and thought than that. "We all'd love to see the plan..." said Lennon to Lenin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 17:18:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. X-To: "Donald J. Byrd" In-Reply-To: <01HKIK83VDUQ9I5CFG@asu.edu> I am intrigued by the idea of alliances among communities, as per Nasdor's and Byrd's posts . . . particulary as we have been so preoccupied with articulating our differences. Where are the connections and possibilities for interactivity? Alas, I am leaving, tomorrow for a month, and will miss being able to respond for such a long period of time, but, rest assured, I am going to pour over the past posts in some detail on my contemplative journey (I'm taking the train--three days!) across the American landscape. I've never made the journey in the winter. I would just like to leave with the thought that while it has been highly useful to observe the differences in positions, the direction Byrd and Nasdor suggest may prove, at least, equally useful. Perhaps I suffer under the delusion that discussions and issues such as we have been preoccupied with here are somehow important or even part of a larger world. . .but the investment we have all made suggests to me very much otherwise. Now, what do we do? "What shall we ever do?" "Goonight. Goonight" Jeffrey Timmons AH! YOU FOUND THE SURPRISE! HAPPY HOLIDAY! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 17:24:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Timmons Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. X-To: Chris Stroffolino In-Reply-To: <01HKIRJ6S2FM9I5CFG@asu.edu> Sorry, couldn't resist: On Sun, 11 Dec 1994, Chris Stroffolino wrote: "Ah, utopia, utopia, there's gotta be more to life and thought than that." I like vanillautopia, though I've developed a taste for chocalateutopia too. "If you don't eat you meat you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat!" Jeffrey Timmons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 13:52:09 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: academy, etc. THE ACADEMY may be the larger term. The University, too, may have something of the universe about it, but the local variations are considerable. The Profess of that? Here one is at a distance from the centre of it--the Books and Journal elsewhere, the Conferences are held elsewhere and the funds to go limited-- and the local Branch (there are 6 English Departments) inactive partly because too small and dispersed. What is the case with the Profession and the Universit here is of course also the case with other structures in the culture as well. produces a "thinness" in which the gains of specialisation (to which the Pro- fession and the University are particularly devoted) are hard to realise. On the other hand, the locale suits versatility, interdisciplinarity, cross-dressing. has implications for teaching/training and for how best to interpret one's rol as an academic in New Zealand. For a good while now while working in the English Department I have been writing poetry, teaching American poetry.writing about it, writing about contemporary art , and operating as a free-lance curator and arts administrator. This mix has served to deliver to hand a situation of sufficient complexity. Also, since the campus is located downtown as most of you folks say, I can get out of here easily and see shows, meet up with artists, dealers, etc. (I have thought the dis- location of so many US universities from city life is one of their major drawbacks and, in particular accounts for their distance from, in- comprehension of, contemporary art practices) I have not worked for corporations, but have been under contract to art museums, arts councils, and cultural foundations for quite large exhibition, conference, and publication projects. This extra-mural activity is on-going; it seems a permanent and necessary part of my programme. I have learnt a great deal from it, not the least being the demands it make for all manner of competencies not required or thought of within the Uni- versity. And it is essential to any notion I might have of my contrib- ution to the University-as-Academy. Although at first reluctant to accept these breaches of Discipline--the Discipline of English, that is--the University, I must say, has gradually come to accept them. Wystan Curnow ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 20:32:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Marc Nasdor Comments: Originally-From: "Donald J. Byrd" From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Re: The National Question, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412110220.VAA25795@sarah.albany.edu> from "Marc Nasdor" at Dec 10, 94 08:36:04 pm Don Byrd responds to my post: > On what possible grounds might such an alliance be > based? > So called Reagan Democrats, who are little different > from Reagan Republicans, are devoted solely, as far as I can see, > to greed. That's a relatively recent phenomenon, brought about after 1980 by Reagan and cohorts; that is, convincing the traditional working classes that they were mistaken to follow any sort of "left" agenda. I believe the Reagan Republicans began chewing away at their weakest links to the Democratic Party-- by engaging them in the *cultural* arena before introducing the greed factor-- and then convinced them that the accumulation of material possessions, as well as the practice of conspicuous consumption, was the "correct" stance. It is all too obvious that the Democratic Party was, and remains, so fearful of engaging its core constituency because it is, in fact way out of touch. The Republicans are correct on that point, but for the wrong reasons. And as I posted earlier, Gingrich et al focus on culture first economics second. That can make it difficult to engage *anyone* in a Marxist analysis of the problem if one limits one's arguments to economics. > I would suggest that corporate down-sizing is being done-- > like everything else-- backwards. Rather than having businesses > devoted to downsizing corporations, we should have businesses devoted > to restructuring cities that could function without automobiles. > The downsizing of corporations would then follow as a natural > consequence. A fantasy, Don. There are so few cities that could be restructured in such a manner (even if funds were available). Further, the majority of Americans (80%, I believe) live outside of cities, mostly in suburbs or exurbs. The car still rules, unfortunately, and will continue to do so as businesses continue to flee urban areas for the new zones of "worker housing"--townhouse ghettoes. > 1) We need something like a kind of psychoanalysis to > bring repressed greed to consciousness; How is it repressed? > 2) We need to find something other than material extravagance > as a motivating human factor. "Kill em' all. Let God sort 'em out." ;-) Oy vay! Marc Nasdor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 20:15:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle In-Reply-To: <01HKGOX8UIV6ANC8TW@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> To respond to Chris Stroffolino, no indeed the BOHO is not less important or more irresponsible than the FAMILY. Indeed there are contemporary crises in both. And we are all, if not parents, children. Just to agree with you that the terms of person need to be part of the discussion as much as the terms of work. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 22:09:16 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle i didn't read charle's original post as refering to a narrow/ traditional definition of "family" as in nuclear... but rather a counterbalance on the side of _human_ relationships when the discussion has been focused on _economic_ relationships (&& yeah i know, they can't be seperated frm one another etc; but bottom- line telling that the discuss has been cast only in terms of work). that counterbalance is, i think, valuable... it also does not exclude extended definitions of family, including various Boho arrangements of oneself among one's loved ones... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 08:01:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Re: haoles In-Reply-To: <199412092235.RAA00287@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> On Fri, 9 Dec 1994, Susan Schultz wrote: > I'm not sure you can have it both ways, Eric; if the classroom is > to be a place where therapeutic anger authorizes students, then it's > possible to regard Trask's poem as just that: a therapeutic exercise of > getting angry. Though the word "therapy" suggests that somehow we'll all > work through this in the end. Hm. Clearly didn't make myself clear, there. I'm very doubtful of the notion of "therapeutic" classroom anger. Yes, yes, I know: Let fury have the hour / Anger can be power, etc. But I was far more impressed by the degree to which the pleasure of righteous rage (at LAST I get to sound off, cut in, go on the attack) was therapeutic only for the authorized patients. The rest of us were supposed to flush & bear it, & feel good about how bad we felt. Sorry: I don't buy it as pedagogy or as ethics. My problem with equating the poem with > "ethnic cleansing" is that the Hawaiian sovereignty movement is a > separatist movement, not an imperial one (as in the "former > Yugoslavia"). Trask may want more of us haoles (and in this number she'd > include local Asian Americans) to leave the state, but I don't get the > sense that she wants to line us up and shoot us. And when you don't want to leave? And when it's not her, but someone else? In the context of her > entire book, Trask's position is a bit more complicated than this poem > suggests: there's a love poem to her haole partner of many years in > there, too (although he's presented as a "good haole" who supports her > struggle to the utmost). > Why, some of her best friends are haoles! (A cheap shot, but therapeutic, right? > A note from yesterday's paper. "Bumpy" Kanahele, who led the year > long occupation of Makapu'u beach, is quoted as saying that tourism and > sovereignty are not entirely incompatible. He denied saying that he'd > ever advocated violence against tourists: "What he did mean, he said, was > that if the Hawaiians do not get what they want, things could get violent. > But rather than let that happen, his organization would once again go the > tourists and tell them their presence is lending support to an economy > that is based on an illegal government in land improperly seized from the > Hawaiians" (in 1893). After independence, and because of it, he argues, a > better grade of tourist will come to Hawaii (an interesting spin on > tourism, certainly). So I'm partly supposed to support this out of snob value--no mo' tacky shirts and polyester leis? I don't mean to be arrogant, merely obnoxious and suspicious. What part of the US isn't based on land improperly seized from someone? Where are all the rest of us supposed to go? And, again, what if we don't want to? I think the worst-case scenario must always be faced: I doubt that you or I can flip through a list of revolutionary / sovereignty movements and determine, in advance, who'll be violent, especially based on notions of "imperialism." Too many counterexamples. Cranky from lack of coffee, E. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 08:12:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412101846.NAA03636@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> On Sat, 10 Dec 1994, Donald J. Byrd wrote: The kind of reading that the New Critics thought to teach > to, if not the masses, a very large middle class is increasingly > a specialized skill, like say being able to solve differential > equations. A large majority of our 1000-plus English majors here > at Albany are pre-law or pre-M.B.A. (Business schools like students > who can read and write). > > Of course, most graduate programs in English have refused > to notice this fact, and wouldn't know what to do about it if they > would notice it. As someone who regularly teaches American lit to freshmen & non-majors--not what I was trained to do, as such, in graduate school, but something that I find increasingly entertaining--I'd love to know: what forms of reading do you think SHOULD be taught, or at least encouraged? By reading I mean something like, "engagements with the text," I suppose. An open appeal for advice, before I weigh in with my own ill-formed, ill-gotten notions. EMS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 05:42:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: haoles One sentence here stands out: > My problem with equating the poem with >> "ethnic cleansing" is that the Hawaiian sovereignty movement is a >> separatist movement, not an imperial one (as in the "former >> Yugoslavia"). This would seem to be a "classic" question of a group's relation to power (the center). That which is at the center (or conceives of itself as a center) moves outward, imperial motion. That which perceives itself at the margin merely defines the margin (builds that border). Both seem to involve an essential(ist) xenophobia. Such is at the heart of every identity politics. The relative danger comes from the relation to power, no? And at the real center comes that almost snow blindness of presuming it's "just us." Hence prop 187 in California and the Bubba vote throughout the US in 1994, revenge of the white males. Interesting how, given what a "boy" discussion this has been for the past week or so, nobody here at all takes the standard Bubba position, even while the range of politics and poetics involved seems pretty broad. To be a poet makes an internationalist out of many (at least here in the US -- Dubravka Djuric has noted how many opportunistic poets in Serbia have taken advantage of the situation there to gather little fiefdoms of state power and how even the opposition Croat and Bosnian poets have quickly moved into nationalist positions that seem to have as much to do with what's in it for them as it does the needs of "their people." So what is this concept "my people"? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 11:57:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert A Harrison Subject: Re: haoles Ron Silliman asks, whether rhetorically or not - What is this concept "my people"? I agree the term is problematic. A bit different than the concept "my community." Seems that "my people", in identity politics, usually implies a sense of shared loss, or potentially shared loss. Seems that usually all of "my people" are fairly easily distinguishable from others, at LEAST to some potentially threatening others. I don't think the use of the term necessarily implies xenophia. Just like fear doesn't necessarily imply paranoia. Its use is often an attempt to unify in the face of division & conquering, no? On the other hand, the term could be used to rally the troops for extermination of an other. There's nothing inherently wrong in using the term, or good, it seems to me. Not only adds to binary confusion, but could help people gain a better "sense of themselves", no matter how illusory or how real, with which to participate in the world. I imagine the concept is an absolutely essential one for many people. Bob Harrison ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 18:55:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle Yes, Charles (Alexander)--Isn't agreement boring? But I agree about not "divorcing" so-called "work" and so-called "free time" and I was intrigued by Shoemaker's wanting to go beyond binaries, or maybe I misread him, maybe he's saying it's impossible--and sure, there's no point CONCEPTUALLY doing away with certain binaries unless of course we disagree with referentiality, but obviously we don't or we wouldn't be talking about the town vs gown as if its rival tribes.... When I was a freshman in college a long time ago, they wanted the floor I lived on in a "dorm" to form a "team" against another floor where most of my friends lived (this is not an allegory of upward mobility-hint, hint) Anyway, the point is THAT what's silly about all these distinctions is that there is SOME SOCIAL FORCE that keeps us divided from each other--I tend to want to call it capitalism (but a rose by any other name...) and as one gets older the possibility of social engagement OUTSIDE THE FAMILY seems increasingly harder to pull off--The same old song, the death of community. I find it funny that people say "town" vs. "gown"--for certainly academics do not form a unified front. So, what's at stake in all this divisiveness! Ego? Pride? 12 Step program Rhetoric! Investments, commitments, marketing ploys. Testesterone! None of these explanations seem to account for it-- I know why because AGREEMENT (or what we call agreement) IS BORING and that brings us back to do....Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 19:17:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle i had lost my thread in abstractions--when I say "divisiveness" I do not merely mean argumentative divisiveness, I mean the entire, uh, existential, (there I said it, though a better word of course is welcome--since all words seem approximations anyway) divisiveness that has a lot to do with the way this society attempts to assign us in predetermined grids, not just alienated labour and specialization but its echo in "personal stuff" and they are two sides of the same coin, a coin we should either try to melt down, but HOW? Being torn of course between wanting to attack the "bourgeois individual" from a position of the collective and on the other hand distrusting the NORMALIZING function collectivity seems to necessitate as in Neitzsche's genealogy (strong become evil, etc). I don't know this but abstractly.maybe it would be better if Charles Alexander actually DID turn this into a discussion about DIAPERS--for there should be a way for us oh so enlightened and concerned avant-gardists (sic) to be able to deal with such things without either cynical irony on one hand or IOWA school "musings" on the other. Though I think WCW is relatively over-emphasized (if not over-rated), at least he could write things like "Dance Rusee"-- to find the BOHO IN the family man, the family man in the BOHO, etc... Otherwise we become stereotypes for each other, "the grass always greener with envy on the other man's yawn"---Cranky (from too much coffee), Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 16:14:27 U Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kit Robinson Subject: Walking Grove of Trees Reply to: Walking Grove of Trees Contrary to Tom & Ron, I would like to offer anyone pursuing an academic career this advice: stay in school! I decided a long time ago not to go to graduate school. Now I have to hustle my butt off just to make ends meet. I don't even have time to read all these emails! I think the reason I decided not to go to graduate school had something to do with wanting to become a poet. Of the many, many poets whose work I admire, none have been academics. But there's always a first time, and this might be it! Kit Robinson ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 20:33:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: <199412091714.AA10182@panix.com> Having been through some graduate school, taught at NYU for a few years, worked as an independent entrepreneur, worked as a capitalist lackey, done manual labor painting outsides of high rises, published 10 books that made money and 8 books (poetry) that lost money, published 75 literary titles, run a non-profit distribution service, worked for the city of New York, and since I am always looking for work to do I figure I have failed at everything I have ever tried to do. In the light of this experience which I do not wish to describe as holier, simply that I have some direct experience of both sides of the fence that is being disputed as well as other fences of the labor market not described, I would expect that any honest look at the corporations and universities described in your letters differ little from each other in their most important respects. Generally universities treat workers worse and do less damage with their output while corporations treat workers better in comparable positions, but engage in risk taking to the extent that their output has a greater direct effect, good and bad, on the society, environment, and individual lives. They make together two of the many kinds of institutions we live with and any attempt to denigrate either type of institution is both narrow and irrelevant. The risks of corporate life now are great. The inability of universities to significantly amend those risks is pathetic. Read today's NY Times re: Bass & Yale. Transnationalism is a fact. Can these discussions turn that situation around? Can we add an accent to it that will increase the benevolence of our physical and intellectual environment in an entire world? How do you expect to affect it? What is your program? What cooperation does this group offer? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 20:39:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: <199412092353.AA13097@panix.com> Once again Steve, your response to Ron is counter productive, well reasoned, but can you accept that a single world exists whose cultures ar merging and their intersection causes these clashes. The emerging world culture is not better or worse than the indigenous cultures that are being infected by each other. Ron's anti-universal arguement and your response to it, "true or false universalism", are again polarizing a world that can be viewed as having two poles or two critical loci of its magnetic field. The arguments pro and con do not elucidate the way they interact, only the way you feel them impacting your personal life. I hardly consider your position universal. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 22:36:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: ASSORTED It's been a pleasure performing a kind of lump sum lurking in this Poetics forum, following a patch of down time while a crafty computer consultant helped unclog this machine, thereby freeing up space to let the AOL upgrade flower. Spooling back to the issues concerning how to mesh ethics and workplace and needed action, it would seem that at every turn there's temptation to freeze (not act) on account of the rampant impurities that are evident in virtually every institution. Having spent about 15 years in the private sector and only a few in the public sector, and now having clients in both, I've liked the fluency that one gains from operating in a corporate context. It has often (if not always) felt necessary to sort and strain value from the inevitable dross one finds there. And, of course, those who've NOT worked in the private sector probably find greater mystique in that milieu than do those who have. Why talk about this? Simply to say that one of the things that "gets learned" in the many types of environment that are spawned by greed is the value of amassing little accomplishments, taking action (I prefer not to use the term "small wins," as this connotes at least a battle, if not a war). There's a kind of confidence, false or not, that one can glean from focusing and directing attention and then acting. And I'm sure there are plenty of things one could edit out of such experience. But I find that seeking purity prior to taking action is an exasperating experience. The point of this is that the best of what's available in a corporate experience frames (thereby makes possible) an action mentality that COULD (although it does not often enough) yield value for social concerns. I absolutely never feel I've done enough about anything in the way of our largest problems (those real biggies). But it seems that forming hinges between little effort and little effort can at least foster mental health as some version of a collective pads along trying to progress. The institutionalization of greed, the fostering of subset addictions via the established channels, make all progress feel impossible at times. And yet it is very likely in our small units of communing we live out values that keep shaping the world. So while some kind of conviction and effort (proof) that action is possible, there are daunting odds. As each day reveals, it's got to be worth it to try. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 23:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412121313.IAA19692@sarah.albany.edu> from "Eric Selinger" at Dec 12, 94 08:12:06 am Eric writes: > As someone who regularly teaches American lit to freshmen & > non-majors--not what I was trained to do, as such, in graduate school, > but something that I find increasingly entertaining--I'd love to know: > what forms of reading do you think SHOULD be taught, or at least > encouraged? By reading I mean something like, "engagements with the > text," I suppose. An open appeal for advice, before I weigh in with my > own ill-formed, ill-gotten notions. Undergraduates by and large have never had the experience of grand coherence. I try to teach them to look for big patterns and make it cohere. Beginning graduate students usually cohere excessively. I try to teach them to let go (Charles' list of algorithm's here might be useful). Advanced graduate students typically have fallen into utter chaos. I try to teach them to cohere. The distance between coherence1 of the undergraduates and coherence2 of the advanced graduate students is considerale. There is a coherence that is closed and a coherence that is open. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 06:22:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marc Nasdor Subject: Re: haoles In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 12 Dec 1994 08:01:23 -0500 from I spent a month on Maui in 1987 and found a the presence of a suffocating racial pecking order which put white celebrity types and "windsurf nazis" as well as rich Japanese country clubbers on top, native Hawaiians second (due to their land-grant rights and not least their will to be heard), Chinese third, and everybody seemed to beat on the Filipinos, who were stereotyped as living in trailer parks filled with red velvet furniture and Elvises everywhere. I not only found this annoying, I almost got the shit beaten out of me when I went to the wrong bar to have a drink. I had to keep reminding people that I was not a resident, which immediately exempted me from having to participate in this little game. Otherwise it was a paradise. --Marc Nasdor ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 08:14:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Blaser book shuffaloff books announces the forthcoming publication of "Preface to the Early Poems of Robert Duncan" by Robin Blaser Publication date: March 1995 7.5" x 8.75" 10 pp. Pre-publication price: $6.00 US/$8.00 CAN (+$1.50 s&h) After publication: $7.50US/$10.00CAN (+ s&h) "This essay was originally written as an introduction to the first volume of the *Collected Works of Robert Duncan* published by the University of California. Because of unforeseen complications, it could not be included. It has appeared previously in an earlier version in a catalog of the drawings of Robert Duncan published by the Poetry/Rare Books Collection of the State Universtity of New York at Buffalo." shuffaloff monograph #1 Send inquiries or orders to: 260 Plymouth Ave. Buffalo, NY 14213 or 653 Euclid Ave. Toronto ON M6G 2T6 (for Canadian orders, make cheques payable to Michael Boughn) or contact Michael Boughn at mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:29:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns James Sherry writes: ...that a single world exists whose cultures are merging and their intersection causes these clashes. The emerging world culture is not better or worse than the indigenous cultures that are being infected by each other. Well,... 1. No one occupies a position from where it is possible to see what multiple cultures are doing on a world scale, esp. not as the pictured fantasy involves the future, which it is in principle not possible to know. 2. That an emerging world culture (assume it for a moment) is "not better or worse than the indigenous cultures" is either not an empirical statement (i.e. it is an anthropologist's position) or if it is one, where's the evidence? One could certainly argue that the culture of the Roman Empire, for example, as it grafted itself onto and lived off of indigenous cultures all over Europe and the Med. basin, was a disaster for those cultures, tragedy for their people. I don't think James can assure any "indigenous culture" anywhere that the global transformation he sees will be "not better or worse" for them. 3. Someone somewhere ought to formalize and describe an ailment of the intellect that he/she might call "the consolation of terms." Apparently, mere possession of a term like "culture" is sufficient to give its possessor a sense of having risen above the sombre cthonic clash of undescribed human interests whose stake and way in the world is being steamrollered. Get thee behind me terminology. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 08:29:55 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: ASSORTED In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 12 Dec 1994 22:36:35 -0500 from Sheila Murphy's phrase "institutionalizaiton of greed" struck me as very useful in the context of both the occupational identity discussions and Don Byrd's splendidly splenetic manifesto. Frankly I'm bored with the aspect of the discussion about which is better academic or corporate or both or neither, or family or boho etc. We all made and make choices and they have consequences, so lets go on with it. A pickpocket can be a great poet (Villon) and so can a saint-- the confusion for my generation was that we confused the exoteric and esoteric -- many of us needed the identity of poet before we ever had the practice. Back to greed: I follow the Buddhist perspective: it is a basic aberration of mind, one of the three poisons also identified with attachment or clinging. Precisely because it is universal, there's no sense looking for greed out there (in corporations, universities etc.)-- it's right here folks and is active in various ways from moment to moment, whether we are greedy for a toast crumb or a tenured professorship. Now Sheila's phrase, institutionalization of greed is to the point-- the great engines of capital refine, develop and advertise new attachments and the wheels keep spinning. Various spiritual disciplines, meditation and prayer-- do offer a perspective adn a practice for recognizing the nature of greed and a de-conditioning from its allure. And I think it better to work on ourselves than to assume the enemy is some 'they" out there. Rodger Kamenetz enrodg@lsuvm.sncc.lsu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:52:16 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: TRR call for reviews ________________ > > > > > > > > > > CALL FOR REVIEWS < < < < < < < < < < ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ folks-- TAPROOT REVIEWS provides access to a wide variety of writing and language-art publications, with short reviews of hundreds of titles in each issue. This is a periodically updated call for submissions. The following titles are among those available for review: Charles Bernstein Dark City Mei-mei Berssenbrugge Sphericity Clark Coolidge Registers (People In All) Norman Fisher Precisely the Point Being Made Peter Ganick Cafe Unreal No Soap Radio Susan Gevirtz Linen Minus Catherine Harris Sylvan Delta Denise Lawson Where You Form the Letter L Stacy Levine My Horse & other stories Jena Osman Amblyopia Leslie Scalapino Goya's L.A. J. Spahr et.al.(eds.) A Poetics of Criticism Elizabeth Willis Second Law +assorted chaps from Leave Books: Elena Rivera WALE Sally Doyle UNDER THE NEATH Kimberly Lyons RHYME THE LAKE Lori Lubeski STAMINA Laynie Browne ONE CONSTELLATION Cole Swenson WALK Will Alexander ARCANE LAVENDER MORALS Joe Ross PUSH Kristin Prevallet from PERTURBATION, MY SISTER Kevin Magee SEA/LAND Guy R. Beining TOO FAR TO HEAR Magazines: Avec Vol.8, 1994 Exile Vol.2 #4, fall 1994 House Organ #8, fall 1994 The Impercipient #6, November 1994 -& this is just a small sampling... WE WOULD WELCOME short (100-200 word) reviews of any of the above titles, other publications, or related language-arts work: spoken word recordings, artist's books, intermedia, etc... We also run longer "feature" articles (1000-2000 wd.), focusing on particular authors, titles, publishers, or tendencies. The emphasis remains on _access_ to publications. Query first. Samples of TapRoot Reviews Electronic Edition (TRee) can be found at the Electronic Poetry Center, and additional "writer's Guidelines" are available from this address. luigi-bob drake Burning Press/TRR au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:44:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: AMERICA: A PRAYER AMERICA: A PRAYER The Honorable Newt Gingrich has informed us that prayer in the public schools is one of the most important issues facing this great nation, and in our firm belief that America doesn't have a prayer, we call upon the Poets of America to give America a prayer. Opportunity is crucial in a capitalist society. We feel therefore that this, the 104th Congress, should have the opportunity to authorize the production of the appropriate American prayer from amongst the deeply felt works of America's finest, most challenging, and dedicated writers. America's prayer is meant to be read by everybody, but don't let that stop you. Your prayers should be 500 words or less. Please send two copies of your prayer. One, marked "Proposal for Prayer for the Schools," should be sent to The Honorable Newt Gingrich, House of Representatives, 2428 Rayburn Hourse Office Bldg., Washington, D.C. 20515. The other copy should be sent with self-addressed stamped-envelope to Aerial/Edge at the address below. Selections of the prayers we received will appear in an upcoming issue of The New Censorship, and possibly some other forums; we encourage interested publishers to contact us as well. No strictures on style or content. Writers may or may not wish to imagine delivery of their prayer in a classroom context. You do not have to be a U.S. citizen to participate. Also interested in visual materials. Please pass this opportunity on to as many people as possible. Deadline: Feb. 28, 1995. Rod Smith Lee Ann Brown Mark Wallace The Loose Coalition for Democratic Inspiration. AERIAL/EDGE P.O. Box 25642 Washington, D.C. 20007 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 10:24:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412090048.TAA08511@sarah.albany.edu> from "eric pape" at Dec 8, 94 06:15:36 pm Oh Lawdie, Lawrd, this discussion of where its better to work, corp vs a.k.adamn is beginning to wear me down it sounds so anglo-puritan. work work work with a sour-grapes coating of ethics. Wasn't one of the reasons to become a poet exactly the possibility of escaping the dreary sludgery of work work work, of transforming that dailyness into a revolution of everyday life? Let us now praise laziness, ein Lob der Faulheit, la vida es suen~o, & from Rabelais to Debord, la fete, pleasure, laughter, sensuality, time spent with friends around a table with food & wine, & laughter, laughter -- which is what I miss most in Yankeeland. ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | Dept. of English | "La poesie ne s'impose plus, elle s'expose." SUNY Albany | Paul Celan Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | email: | "He who leaves a trace, leaves an abcess." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| Henri Michaux ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 11:36:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412131541.KAA17657@sarah.albany.edu> from "Pierre Joris" at Dec 13, 94 10:24:31 am Pierre Joris writes: > > Oh Lawdie, Lawrd, this discussion of where its better to work, corp > vs a.k.adamn is beginning to wear me down it sounds so anglo-puritan. > work work work with a sour-grapes coating of ethics. Wasn't one of the > reasons to become a poet exactly the possibility of escaping the > dreary sludgery of work work work, of transforming that dailyness into > a revolution of everyday life? Let us now praise laziness, ein Lob der > Faulheit, la vida es suen~o, & from Rabelais to Debord, la fete, > pleasure, laughter, sensuality, time spent with friends around a table > with food & wine, & laughter, laughter -- which is what I miss most in > Yankeeland. I'd say, Pierre, that the first symptoms of repressed greed are incivility and loss of humor (laughter first, the sense of gentle irony thereafter). Of course, Amurikans aren't the only greedy ones, but we probably lead the field... Probably the sense of irony was the big losser in this last election. Certainly, a sense of humor. The only way to rid the body politics of the likes of Newt Gingrich is with wild laughter. Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 13:42:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins (fwd) Hey, i posted a query about the "marginalization" of poetry on another pedagogically-oriented list (professors and high school teachers) and thought this list might find the first round of responses interesting, if sometimes lamentable. steve shoemaker Forwarded message: > From daemon Tue Dec 13 11:46:44 1994 > Message-Id: <199412131646.LAA169433@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 11:28:51 -0500 > Reply-To: Teaching the American Literatures > Sender: Teaching the American Literatures > From: "tamlit@guvax.georgetown.edu \"Randy Bass\"" Subject: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins > To: Multiple recipients of list T-AMLIT > > ***JRNL: T-AMLIT JOURNAL*** > > *Poetry on the Margins* > > Here are SIX Journal responses to Steve Shoemaker's posting on the > possible reasons that poetry seems marginalized within the academy. > He also made the observation that poetry is far less discussed on > T-AMLIT than prose and calls for more discussion about teaching poetry. > RBass > ************************************************************* > (1) > From: IN%"Adolph.L.Soens.1@nd.edu" > Subj: RE: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins > > Perhaps because modern poetry has moved away fro sound. Little could be > sung. Without that rhythmic possibility, I suspect that poetry loses some > of its immediate appeal. kick the discussion off, perhaps. cheero. > > Adolph Soens > University of Notre Dame > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > (2) > From: IN%"tpetrosk+@pitt.edu" "Anthony R Petrosky" > Subj: RE: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins > > In response to Steve Shoemaker's note on poetry on the margins, I too > think it is curious that academics seem to be shying away from poetry. > As I notice it specifically, there seems to me to be a reluctance to > teach poetry in conjunction with composition in much the way that there > seems to be resistance, at least in some places around the country, to > imagine that literature and composition can be taught together. There > are too few moments of literature and poetry especially in composition > readers. There is a lot of interesting stuff happening in poetry, and it > seems to me to offer students, in particular (from my interests) > composition students, another way to learn to write by writing about > poetry and by writing poetry. I would say the same about fiction and > journalism. It seems to me also that many of the old saws regarding > poetry and fiction still live on, especially those that represent writing > in these genres as requiring some sort of natural talent or creativity. > These notions seem to be strongly held beliefs in public school teaching > as well as in the universities. It has also seemed to me to be the case > that my freshmen students can be interested in poetry when the poetry > presented to them is close to them, close to their language and so on. > Generally, I would propose that public school students might be more > interested in poetry, along with their teachers, if they began with > contemporary poetry and worked their way back in the tradition as they > became more familiar and comfortable with reading, writing, and writing > about poetry. I suppose there is a moment when traditions are necessary > and important to the academic study of poetry for people who want to be > poets or literature majors, but I would still argue that the seduction > into poetry comes easiest for students from contemporary readings. > Partly I understand my position as wanting to create the desire to read > and write poetry in with my students. I don't know how to do so with my > colleagues who aren't interested. I wonder too if they need to be > interested. Although the lack of interest affects students who might > encounter poetry, as I have been saying, in a composition course. Right > now that's where my interests are. And with various ways of interweaving > poetry in composition instruction and into high school courses of study. > > Lately I've done a handful of workshops in poetry with high school > students and teachers of high school students. The groups I've worked > with were enormously enthusiastic but unschooled and just not in touch > with contemporary poetry. AWP has a summer program for high school > teachers in poetry, and that seems to have a lot of potential. > Prospective high school teachers, like prospective composition > instructors, don't have much background or experience with poetry. Do > you see poetry courses, excluding those workshops usually open only to > graduate student majors, being offered in departments around the > country? I wonder if anyone has a sense of this, or if we are working > simply from our limited personal impressions? I know from examining > almost all of the composition readers and textbooks that few include > poetry for any purpose. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > (3) > From: IN%"ccrevard@artsci.wustl.edu" "Carter C. Revard" > Subj: RE: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins > > Poetry is on the margins because poets marginalized themselves to be > romantic, to be rebels, to be outsiders, to be the few elite misunderstood > albatrosses who could fly in their own atmosphere but could not walk in > bourgeois back yards. It was then taken into the academies and given Boys > Town publicity as victim of bad bankers and salesmen. The next thing was > that it lost music to the Victrola and plot to the thrillers, metaphor and > rhyme to Madison Avenue, in every loss claiming a victory for obscurity > and solitude and self-pity. The few poets who could teach, like Dr. > Seuss, had to stay out of teaching, which was declared educational only in > prose venues, and that prose had to be jargon or it could not be certified > educational. Eliot said poetry had to be difficult, and this was used as > excuse for making it unreadable. Then an industry of explainers grew up > to account for the gap between ordinary readers and what was called > poetry. The explainers could not get jobs unless explanations were > needed. This meant that the real poetry--that is, what people need and > want to read which tells them where they are most deeply hurt and healed, > made to laugh and cry, entertained and instructed--is what does not have > to be taught, that is, what people actually find and read despite schools > and universities. Poetry got into the ivory tower and only the > enterprising thieves and ---but I now have to confer with a student about > Shakespeare and Milton, so you will all have to correct my > misunderstandings on this slender basis, for now. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > (4) > From: IN%"Federico1@aol.com" > Subj: RE: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins > > I think there are many reasons for the "marginalization" of poetry in the > academy--especially if you're talking about contemporary poetry. One is that > some of it has become increasingly esoteric, of interest only to specialists > who have waded through the many pages of theory that supports is. This was a > trend begun by the modernists early in the century and taken up by certain > post-modernist poets who follow that strand. Related to this is the retreat > from actual life experience and the cerebral nature of some postmodern > poetry. It's significant, I think that poets whose work is clearly related > to life experience--like Adrienne Rich, Allen Ginsberg, Robert Bly, Gwendolyn > Brooks, and more, are really not marginalized but have very large followings. > I think there is actually a hunger for poetry in this country but people are > put off by the remoteness of some of the stuff that passes for poetry. I > know this position will seem reactionary to some academics, but people want > to read poetry that matters--that makes a difference in their lives. Dana > Gioia's essay of several years back, "Can Poetry Matter" touches on this. > Would be nice to have a dialog here--without ad hominem attacks--about how > we can support a poetry that matters in the society and in the academy. > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > (5) > From: IN%"jkinney@hibbs.vcu.edu" "Jim Kinney" 9-DEC-1994 > SUBJ: Poetry on the Margins > > Part of the current lack of interest in poetry is, I suspect, > simply a function of the pendulum swing away from the 30-year > hegemony of poetry under the New Critics in American universities. > Fashion powers our work as much as theory, and poetry right now is > old fashioned as well as less theorized than narrative at the > moment. Jim Kinney > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > (6) > From: IN%"KELEWIS@UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU" "Kevin Lewis" > Subj: RE: JRNL: Poetry on the Margins > > I like Steve's suggestion that we talk about and perhaps teach poetry more. > > I teach in a religious studies department because I got a degree in > religion and lit with a dissertation on religion and poetry (and because > that's where the job was when I came along). Now I get a lot of work as > the outside examiner or reader on English Phd committees--which I enjoy. > An observation: with one exception, my colleagues on the English faculty > with whom I sit around the table "examining" candidates *never* ask about > the particular uses of language in poetry which makes it poetry and not > something else. And that exception is nearing retirement. I ask you who > read and contribute to this list: what has happened? > > Has theory obsession, has multi-culturalism, has historicism new or old, > has (God help us) fiction, driven poetry as poetry out of the curriculum? > I sense embarrassment among my colleagues in the English faculty, both > that they are not teaching it *and* that they are not sufficiently > versed in it (sorry) themselves. I may have that wrong, however. Is it > there are always so many more important things to do in an English > department and in one's career in literary studies? Are there fewer and > and fewer in the profession who care about poetic uses of languages because > they write or once wrote poetry themselves (or because they know poets > and perhaps observe how poets actually work)? > > I am a fan of Helen Vendler. I read her with fascination, wanting to see > and to describe in poems and poetries what she sees, hears, and describes. > Others will have their favorites obviously. Are you going to have to be > a little bit nutty or appointed in religious studies to cultivate a view > of poetry, as it were, from the inside, asking how poems and poetries > tick and how they work? Did poetry go out with the "new criticism?" Why > are the new formalisms so inept at imagining the process of poetic making? > > I teach poetry every semester: Dickey, Auden, D.H. Lawrence, Blake, Plath, > Blake, Millay and Bunting (next semester in RELG 471: Spiritual > Autobiography), Whitman, Dante in translation (Sayers). I can never teach > it without wanting to attend to the technique in dialectical relation > to the mystique. Sorry: that sounds excessively cute, but you get the point. > > Kevin Lewis > kelewis@univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 14:28:03 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Dec 1994 11:36:49 -0500 from Pierre Joris notes that laughter is what he misses most in "Yankeeland," to which I would just add--among those possibilities of embodied interaction that get absented here at the keyboard, the possibility of sharing a laugh is the one I most miss. Absent that possibility, I know I drift into a kind of unrelieved mordancy--not terribly generous, and not terribly inter- esting. I take it that this tendency is what James calls being "well reasoned" (which I think translates roughly as "a bore"). I do know that without laughter to leaven it, the "big talk" of politics strikes me as out of scale, a kind of impossibility. To the extent that I have persisted, it has been in nervous awareness of that im- possibility, as well as of the "consolation of terminology" that Tom Mandel mentions. By the way, I owe an apology to Tom for assuming a while back that I knew what his response to a statement of mine might be-- the gesture rang of defensiveness and cut against the grain of our for(u)m here, where allowing for surprise is a key value. I sometimes wonder if the disjunction between abstract/concrete (or better: what is thought and what is actionable) isn't the most pressing concrete fact of current political life. In other contexts, I've thought that beginning with the specificity of poetry is the best check against going to the abstract too quickly (to paraphrase Sartre on the universal and to recall, also, that passage of Joan Cock's (?) which Patrick cited a while back). With the exception of Tom's inclusion of an Alan Bernheimer poem a few days ago, I think I've missed poetry only a little less than I've missed laughter in recent days. I don't mean to construct yet another binary--I don't credit separations of poetry and politics and I doubt others here do either-- but just to note that the value we convene around here is primarily that of poetic practice: after that, the spectrum of political positioning is, if not stunningly unpredictable(it isn't), a perhaps rather highly individuated mirror of the available categories that structure the wider citizenry. At this moment, the possibility of "internationalism" strikes me as the most interesting topic for further discussion--as an actionable thought some of us are having. I agree with Ron that it is not coincidental that poets, and intellectuals more generally, should be thinking such thoughts. At the risk of consolidating that reading-list Tom has expressed antipathy towards, I think Bourdieu has some good things to say in this regard in his address called "Universal Corporatism: The Role of Intellectuals in the Modern World" (Poetics Today 12.4 [1991]: 655-669). I would also refer those who have questioned my use of the term "autonomy" to that essay for a sense of how I have been intending it. Well, I near the end without having elicited a single chuckle I'm sure. Alas-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 16:22:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: dark familiar In-Reply-To: <199412131712.MAA33868@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "Pierre Joris" at Dec 13, 94 10:24:31 am > > Oh Lawdie, Lawrd, this discussion of where its better to work, corp > vs a.k.adamn is beginning to wear me down it sounds so anglo-puritan. > work work work with a sour-grapes coating of ethics. Wasn't one of the > reasons to become a poet exactly the possibility of escaping the > dreary sludgery of work work work, of transforming that dailyness into > a revolution of everyday life? Let us now praise laziness, ein Lob der > Faulheit, la vida es suen~o, & from Rabelais to Debord, la fete, > pleasure, laughter, sensuality, time spent with friends around a table > with food & wine, & laughter, laughter -- which is what I miss most in > Yankeeland. > > ======================================================================= > Pierre Joris | > Dept. of English | "La poesie ne s'impose plus, elle s'expose." > SUNY Albany | Paul Celan > Albany NY 12222 | > tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | > email: | "He who leaves a trace, leaves an abcess." > joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| Henri Michaux > ======================================================================= I just discovered a new "emoticon": ^;^ It looks to me like a cat sticking out its tongue. I propose we let it preside as a sort of dark "familiar," invoking the spirit of (necessarily macabre?) comedy Pierre recommends. steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 17:19:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER In-Reply-To: <199412131528.AA26935@panix2.panix.com> The prayer in the schools which I used most often and most effectively was, "May he fuck you, teach." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 17:22:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: <199412131526.AA04594@panix3.panix.com> Mr. Mandel is afraid to predict that we will have weather. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 18:34:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Academy, etc. in reply to Pierre Joris: Fine, how about your place? I remember reading somewhere in Georges Perec (I think in an occasional piece in his magazine, name of wch I forget) teh delightful observation wch I must paraphrase, that there is no writer, however much he regards himself (or she herself) as doing serious work, who has not lain in bed with the sound of the working class outside heading off to work and felt a satisfaction either sly or hearty at what he/she has gotten away with in this world! Where, by th eway, are all these posts advising anyone that is better to work in the corporate world (better for who and what). I haven't noticed any. Personally, I recommend to anyone who doesn't mind the personal uncertainties therewith associated to work for his or herself. Tom Mandel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:22:31 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Southerly/AWOL X-To: LITERARY@BITNIC.CREN.NET ******************************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE is a small press distribution service which we hope will help Australian magazines, journals and publishers to reach a much wider audience through the internet. As a first step we will be posting information and subscription details for a number of magazines and publishers to a number of discussion groups and lists. We hope to build up a large emailing list which includes as many libraries as possible. If you know of a list or discussion group which you think might be worthwhile posting or if you would like more information about AWOL please email AWOL at M.Roberts@unsw.EDU.AU.. Please note that M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au is a temporary address until we set up our own address sometime next year ******************************************************************************** SOUTHERLY Southerly is Australia's oldest literary magazine. For over fifty years it has held a central place in the making of Australian literature. The work of Australia's finest writers has appeared in its pages, and been discussed in its critical essays and commentaries. Now Southerly has a renewed appeal, with a clear new design by Toni Hope-Caten, and covers which feature work by Australian artists from the collection of the Museum of Contemporary Art in Sydney. The presentation of the magazine's contents has also changed. We publish a wide range of poetry, fiction and criticism from writers all over Australia and New Zealand. But we also seek out or commission writing which has a special appeal, because of innovative or challenging qualities, or because it helps to throw new light on current literary concerns. The September 1994 issue of Southerly features excerpts from Fay Zwicky's unpublished journal and essays on her poetry by Ivor Indyk and Elsa Linguanti; a selection of work by the poets associated with Collective Effort, including a long poem from P0 's epic '24 Hours'; new poems by Peter Skrzynecki and an essay on his poetry by Michael Griffith; Carl Harrison-Ford on literary hoaxes; poetry by the New Zealand poet Lauris Edmonds; and reviews of contemporary Australian writing by Judith Beveridge, Evelyn Juers, Noel Rowe and Nicolette Stasko. The December issue of Southerly includes new pieces by Archie Weller, Antigone Kefala and Dorothy Porter; an important paper by David Carter on the reverse cultural cringe in Australian literature; essays by Jill Roe on Miles Franklin, Simon Petch on Janet Frame and Tony Winner on David Malouf; and fiction and poetry by Fiona Place, Grant Caldwell, Geoff Page, Richard Allen, Jill Jones and many more. *SPECIAL OFFER* SUBSCRIBE NOW FOR 1995 AND RECEIVE TWO ISSUES FOR 1994 FREE. Southerly is pleased to offer new or lapsed subscribers a special extended subscription. New subscriptions received in 1994 will be treated as subscriptions for 1995, with the issues for September and December 1994 included free of cost. Southerly is published four times a year, in March, June, September and December. This special offer gives you six issues for the price of four. Southerly hopes that you will join them in advancing the role Southerly plays in Australian literary life by taking out a subscription to the magazine. Southerly is edited by Ivor Indyk and Elizabeth Webby, and is published quarterly by the English Association, Sydney. For enquiries about subscriptions and contributions call 02 692 2226 (international 61 2 692 2226 ). cut here (print this message and mail the subscription form to Southerly) ................................................................................ SUBSCRIPTION FORM Name: _______________________________________________________________________ Address: ____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ Please indicate the rate appropriate to your subscription (all dollars are Australian dollars) Individual __ $35 (AUS) within Australia __ $50 (AUS) Overseas Institutional __ $50 (AUS) within Australia __ $65 (AUS) Overseas This subscription is for the four issues of Southerly to be published in 1995, and includes the September and December issues of 1994. The subscription includes postage. Please send this form, with your payment to: SOUTHERLY, DEPARTMENT OF ENGLISH, UNIVERSITY OF SYDNEY NSW 2006 AUSTRALIA. Southerly is assisted by the Australia Council, the Australian Government's arts advisory and support organisation, and the New South Wales Government through the Ministry for the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 15:05:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Selinger Subject: Ron Johnson In-Reply-To: <199412091612.LAA17529@gwis.circ.gwu.edu> Some weeks ago, as I recall, someone gave the name of the New Mexico publisher who's bringing out the complete ARK. I lost my copy of this information, & am eager to get a copy or galleys to help me finish a Dictionary of Literary Biography entry on RJ. I've left word for the poet himself, out at Berkeley, but if anyone here could pass the info along, I'd appreciate it. (Am also ISO a copy of the out-of-print "Complete Short & Early Works" to supplement what I've been able to work with at the Library of Congress so far. Will pay postage & copying costs, if necessary.) EMS ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 20:29:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 7216; Tue, 13 Dec 1994 14:03:50 -0500". Rest of header flushed. Comments: Resent-From: KLINDBE@CMS.CC.WAYNE.EDU From: Kathryne Lindberg Please ignore the material re: transfer of information and commentary on future conferences etc. I didn't know how to erase all but RESOLUTION fyi. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: AXPVMS::BRQ 13-DEC-1994 11:18:14.39 To: BOVE CC: Subj: mla resolution From: IN%"rabasaj@umich.edu" "rabasaj@r.imap.itd.umich.edu" 9-DEC-1994 18:16:41.67 To: IN%"BRQ@vms.cis.pitt.edu" "John Beverley" CC: Subj: Fw: MLA Resolution vs Proposition 187 (fwd) Return-path: Received: from choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu ("port 48460"@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu) by vms.cis.pitt.edu (PMDF V4.3-10 #6609) id <01HKG6D1I980AM9DAC@vms.cis.pitt.edu>; Fri, 09 Dec 1994 18:16:37 -0400 (EDT) Received: by choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu (8.6.9/2.2) id SAA14355; Fri, 9 Dec 1994 18:16:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 09 Dec 1994 18:16:35 -0500 (EST) From: "rabasaj@r.imap.itd.umich.edu" Subject: Fw: MLA Resolution vs Proposition 187 (fwd) X-Sender: rabasaj@choplifter.rs.itd.umich.edu To: John Beverley Message-id: X-Envelope-to: BRQ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi, In case you have not heard of this resolution I am forwarding it to you. I have been in touch with Julio Ramos and he is working on a proposal for the Humanities Institute at Irvine for a subaltern colloquium. He needs to know when would it be a good time in Fall 95. I thought of the middle of October, after LASA and the semester has gotten going. Let me know what you think. It seems that the issue of DISPOSITIO before ours should be finished this semester, so we should be next by the beginning of the year. You need to send me your revised version. Don't forget to include a diskette. Un abrazo, Jose ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 16:27:30 EST From: jose.rabasa@um.cc.umich.edu To: rabasaj@umich.edu Subject: Fw: MLA Resolution vs Proposition 187 ------- Forwarded message Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 14:44:26 EST From: Catherine.Brown@um.cc.umich.edu To: Frances.Aparicio@um.cc.umich.edu, jose.rabasa@um.cc.umich.edu, julh@umich.edu, Santiago.Colas@um.cc.umich.edu Message-ID: <41543093@um.cc.umich.edu> X-MTS-Userid: GFYA Subject: Fw: MLA Resolution vs Proposition 187 This came to me today, folks...send it around. Catherine ------- Forwarded message Received: from ux1.cso.uiuc.edu by um.cc.umich.edu via MTS-Net; Fri, 9 Dec 94 10:32:22 EST Received: from [128.174.136.191] (pc191.lang.uiuc.edu) by ux1.cso.uiuc.edu with SMTP id AA00850 (5.67b8/IDA-1.5 for ); Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:32:00 -0600 X-Nupop-Charset: IBM 8-Bit Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:27:31 -0600 (CST) From: "Linde Brocato" Sender: brocato@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Reply-To: brocato@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Message-Id: <34055.brocato@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu> To: Subject: Fw: MLA Resolution vs Proposition 187 ------------------------------ From: GROVER FURR Thu, 8 Dec 1994 22:54:00 EST To: Multiple recipients of list MEDGAY-L Subject: MLA Resolution vs Proposition 187 Colleagues and friends: I am helping circulate a resolution, to be proposed at the Modern Language Association Convention, Dec. 26-30, in San Diego, calling for the MLA -- the largest professional academic association in the country, perhaps the world -- to oppose Prop. 187; to urge teachers not to cooperate with it; and not to meet in California until the anti-immigrant provisions of Prop. 187 are repealed. If anyone reading this note is a current member of the MLA, or knows MLA members, I urge you to put your name to the resolution below and return it to me, and to forward the text of the resolution, either electronically or in hard copy, to other members for their signatures. They may return them to me at my address (below). If this resolution were to be passed, it would represent a considerable blow to the convention business in CA. But more important by far would be the message it would send to educators and the world at large. Please feel free to repost this message to other newsgroups and on relevant Listservers, but please be sure to ask that the signed resolutions be returned to me by Dec. 24, as I have to take them to San Diego on Dec. 26. Sincerely, Grover C. Furr English Department Montclair State University Upper Montclair, NJ 07043 (201) 655-7305 furr@apollo.montclair.edu * * * * * * * * * * Resolution in Opposition to Proposition 187 WHEREAS the recently-passed ballot California initiative called Proposition 187 has called for the denial of public education--at the primary, secondary, junior college, college, and university levels--to undocumented workers and their children; and WHEREAS public school teachers have been required to help verify the citizenship status of their students, in effect to serve as INS agents; and WHEREAS Proposition 187 was passed in an election year characterized by an alarmingly xenophobic and racist atmosphere in which undocumented workers became scapegoats for the economic problems facing California's working people, even though immigrant workers, both undocumented and documented, continue to be a mainstay of California's economy; and WHEREAS the dangerously fascistic implications of Proposition 187 are revealed by the fact that the "Save Our State" movement backing Proposition 187 was funded in significant part by the Pioneer Foundation, a group that has since the 1930s been committed to demonstrating the genetic inferiority of African- American and other nonwhite peoples; and WHEREAS the Modern Language Association is committed to extending education to all segments of the US population and is unalterably opposed to all forms of xenophobic and racist ideology and practice; BE IT RESOLVED THAT the Modern Language Association condemns the denial of public education to undocumented workers and their children in California and takes steps to publicize this condemnation; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT the MLA urges present and future public school teachers not to cooperate with the State request to verify the legality of their students' immigration status; and BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT the MLA refuses to hold any meetings or conventions in California until such a time as the anti- immigrant provisions of Proposition 187 are repealed. We the undersigned members of the MLA, urge that the above resolution be discussed and passed at the 1994 Convention. NAME (Print/Signature) DEPT/INSTITUTION 1. ___________________________________________________________ 2. ___________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:26:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: Re: town/gown/marriage/kindergarten/bottle In-Reply-To: <01HKKPGL935AANCKB9@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> Today I only changed three diapers, but signed 300 or so fundraising letters, worked on one mid-length poem, put off writing a review, shoveled the snow (two days late) on a sidewalk, sat with children while spouse went to do her chore as representative on an interim steering committee for a neighborhood revitalization plan, and may have danced semi-naked in front of my window, but feel neither particularly mad nor happy. I think if one goes deeply enough into the family unit one inevitably finds chaos & wonder there, perhaps a bit of BOHO. I want to thank you, Chris, for pushing this just a little. charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:45:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mn Center For Book Arts Subject: NEA ??? In-Reply-To: <01HKLQ7IWOECANCHUN@VX.CIS.UMN.EDU> There was a message several days ago which sought response to questions as to the value of the NEA in this time of its attack following recent elections. I certainly don't have the answer to those questions, but I have been asked to speak with a group of six literary organizations here in Minneapolis this Sunday (four of which are four of the eight largest non-profit literary publishers in the country, one of which is the largest independent writer's center in the country, the other of which is the center for book arts I direct -- they all bring in ideas about literary practice which I don't particularly share, but also seem to bring in a willingness to cooperate for the good of all, if such is possible). The agenda for this meeting is this congressional attack on the NEA (as I hear it, opinion ranges everywhere from a sense that the NEA will be abolished to, at the most optimistic, that it will receive a 10% cut each year for the next five years) and how to respond to such. If any on this forum have a particular interest in this, or specific ideas/questions to bring to such a meeting, I would love to hear from you before Sunday morning (Dec. 18), either on this forum, in my private e-mail box (mcba@maroon.tc.umn.edu), or by telephone at work (612-338-3634). Thank you. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 01:14:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Lavender <74063.466@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: act/cat/tongue My big gray castrated cat lies in my lap while I read these scrolls, and while I'm mousing I scratch his head and he purs and his tongue hangs out like Stimpy. I have to laugh. It's true that when you work for a corporation you get a sense of the act, like you put your documentation together I guess and then you confer with your people and then you have begun to set a wheel in motion and that wheel is money and it is an act. A genre is an act. Also an identity. I confess, though, that I've never been able to lie in bed while the rest of the world goes off to work... not an ethical thing, but insomnia. Up until now I though poets were just other people with insomnia. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 21:58:49 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: haoles In-Reply-To: <9412121417.AA21617@uhunix.uhcc.Hawaii.Edu> Sorry to hear about traumatic experiences in "paradise." Of course the word itself, so often applied to Hawaii in the national media, to say nothing of Visitor's Board brochures, is no help at all. Just a couple more thoughts related to teaching in a multicultural classroom, and also inspired by a cursory look at the new Penguin anthology, _Unsettling America: An Anthology of Contemporary Multicultural Poetry_. I'm above all struck by the fact that (and my look was cursory) all the poems are in standard English. Well, there are a few Spanish words here and there . . . But I've found myself, as a contemporary poetry person, teaching poems in Hawaiian pidgin, as well as poems written in Hawaiian that are translated on the facing page. The idea of "teaching" poems in a language that I don't know, but my students do, does have a certain absurd appeal to it, but hardly seems ideal, except insofar as the students gain from the task of explaining words and cultural references to me. Surely there's American literature out there in Spanish, in Chinese, in Yiddish, and so on that belongs in a "multicultural anthology." This brings me back to a question about the function of the university, with its emphasis, linguistic and actual, on "uni"fying knowledge. And the nationalistic function of privileging English (in part through the mere fact that someone like me doesn't speak pidgin, not being from the place where I'm teaching) over other languages that Americans speak. How would hiring practices (so much on English departments' minds this time of year) be affected by a re-evaluation, or revaluation, of this language question? I was intrigued by someone's comment about how Newt and his pals are beginning with a cultural agenda, rather than an economic one. The English-only movement will surely get a shot in the arm. What ARE the alternatives to English-only classrooms? Also with Ron Silliman's claim that American poets are "internationalist." When I'm optimistic I think so, but when I pick up an anthology like the multicultural one, I wonder if we're even being true to the internationalism that exists inside the US. I'm also thinking about Peter Quartermain's and Charles Bernstein's essays on the effect of non-native speakers on American literature in English. It might bear looking at this effect in contemporary circumstances, as well as in the cases of Stein and Williams. To say nothing of the effect of American literature on native Hawaiian literature (much of it oral, and hence not "literature" at all). Does anyone know of such a thing? And, not to be too uni-centric, I'd be curious to hear how corporations are dealing with issues like this. We've been having trades of up to 40 mph for the past several days and, all things being relative, it's freezing. Keeps us at our computer screens. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 06:16:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Academy, etc. Tom Mandel wrote: >Where, by th eway, are all these posts advising anyone that is >better to work in the corporate world (better for who and what). >I haven't noticed any. I agree completely. ====================== Ron Silliman 1819 Curtis Street Berkeley, CA 94702-1617 (510) 540-6861 (home) (510) 734-4581 (office) (510) 734-8593 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@vanstar.com ====================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:47:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: haoles In-Reply-To: <199412140800.AA22347@panix.com> Listening to the background noise of the internet this morning, I noticed, although I haven't read all 100 messages in my inbox that there is both an internationalist and a multi-cultural trend which ought to be able to find common ground. As Steve Evans evinced, the international issue is vital to our future as writers, but how can we writers be international in one language, even if it is English? If English is the world language of today, it is so to an elite and their supporters. Multiculturalism represents the values of unique cultures and their languages. If we follow a multicultural trend, we will continue to celebrate our differences as long as they are celebratory and fall to fighting about the relative values of our uniqueness when we feel threatened or have genuine differences. Yugoslavia, Somalia, Ruwanda, Southern Russia, the list is as long as there are conflicts. Of course it makes sense that Newt has a cultural agenda. If he supports a culture, it will support him, but is this the last gasp of nationalism. Not by a long shot. Not until a manageable number of languages, say two or three have taken over the globe, transparent currency exchanges are a fact of daily life, and the world bank dictates environmental policy in supposedly sovereign states can transnationalism be said to have taken over the world in any kind of successful way. What, you say, all that is already true? Well, I'll be. Susan Schultz: International corporations are controlled by multi-lingual managers who do not view having to switch from one to another as an imposition or as a threat to their personal identity and that of their families, but as means of control, because they can and frankly because they must. That's the value of multi-culturalism--we must speak to each other. But most of the values of our literatures are based in a specific language, aligning writers with national or language-centered movements. A real dilemon, I'd say, because no matter how good you are at two or even three languages, your best shot in a foreign lanugage is facile or based on a limited vocabulary and set of resonances. Where is the poly-semous complexity that we all revel in when we speak English, if we have to be multi-lingual. Even then the marginal languages get disappeared. In NY for example my German supervisor speaks English and is excited about using idiom. In Hawaii I hear the universe-ity is afraid of the influence of native language. Any wonder where the power is? Rereading this I guess a lot of it is obvious, but the issues for poets are difficult, challenging some of our dearest assumptions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:49:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns And Mr. Sherry's predictions have the exact value of the nightly weather report. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 10:11:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Experiments List In-Reply-To: <199412062110.AA22006@panix2.panix.com> I'd like to add one modest experiment to the list Charles compiled: Homophobic Translation. Take any e-mail you disagree with and respond to it high-handedly, concealing any confusion you might have on the subject. Insist on a tone that will demolish rather than convince your phantom adversary of another point of view. Cover your tracks with ad hominem attacks on anyone who might have disagreed with you on any subject. Be especially careful that these attacks do not touch on any of the values or issues on which your imagined opponent might be correct. Ignore any attempt to sidetrack the putative argument with reason, fact, or personal concerns. Throw is a lot of obscure references to books you have read in pre-publication galleys. Alternatively, coopt the issue instead of disagreeing with it using humiliating imitations. Alternatively, put your name on the ideas of others until you get taken to court and are vindicated by huge advances for your next book. Experimentation is such fun. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:03:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412141109.GAA07918@sarah.albany.edu> from "Tom Mandel" at Dec 13, 94 06:34:03 pm Tom, (& Ron, who concurred with: > > in reply to Pierre Joris: > [stuff deleted] > > Where, by th eway, are all these posts advising anyone that is > better to work in the corporate world (better for who and what). > I haven't noticed any. > > Tom Mandel > Where indeed? I haven't noticed any either! What I wrote was that the "discussion of where its better to work, corp vs a.k.adamn" was getting ever so slightly wearisome...unless I dreamed it, there was discussion on the comparative merits of working for corporations versus working in academia? Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | Dept. of English | "La poesie ne s'impose plus, elle s'expose." SUNY Albany | Paul Celan Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | email: | "He who leaves a trace, leaves an abcess." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| Henri Michaux ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:33:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: Academy, etc. No, Pierre, you didn't dream it, or I did too (and certainly there's no santa claus) but WHAT A DRAG--you think on a poetics list, especially one featuring many writers known for their problematizing of the old lyric "I" and its bulky humanistic cult of personalities, there'd be less "personality battles," less egomongering territorial pissing and at least some attention to, dare I say it, "poetry" or at least rockmusic in a way that isn't merely bitter like the comments on the Rolling Stones that imply a kind of dry smug superiority (that I am probably totally guilty of here). (By the way--there's a typo in the second line of this note--I meant "you'd think" not "you think"--"you" as in "one") Chris Stroffolino ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:46:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: <199412141451.AA06227@panix.com> "The only legitimate news is the weather." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:39:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: ASSORTED Dear Rodger Kamenetz--Not that I disagree with you about the value of fighting the enemy within (and fighting fighting for that matter, to get to a place that's unexpressable), but surely the enemy "out" there is not merely an ASSUMPTION--some of us can no longer afford the luxury to assume an ontology in which an INDIVIDUAL's interests are totally oppossed to the interests of a collectivity, I think it's a question not so much of compromise in its bandaid-on-the-wound sense, but of realizing that we are "always already" social, even in "meditation" which can also be "a weapon", right? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 21:01:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: awol A note to announce that information about AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE has been posted in the Small Press Alcove in the Electronic Poetry Center. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 18:33:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER In-Reply-To: <199412131528.HAA00755@whistler.sfu.ca> from "Mark Wallace" at Dec 13, 94 09:44:08 am By "America," I take it, most of the people online here mean the U.S. I wrote a prayer many years ago. It goes "Lord, if I have but one life to live, I hope this ain't it." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 14:45:20 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re-Academy Tom Mandel wrote: Where are all these posts advising anyone that it is better to work in the corporate world (better for who and what) And Ron Silliman (Dec.l4) quickly seconded this claim that there have been none such. So I asked my secretary to go through the dept. e-mail files and to see if he could find any. And to have the report on my desk at his first opport- unity. The situation seems to be as follows: on Dec. 6 Ron fired off a post in which he said there was more collaborativeness in the corporate world than in the university world. I.e. on that score (what) the corporation would be better for academics (who). Also on the score of knowing what was really going on in the economy --a must for anti-capitalists. The following day, Tom, himself posted to the effect that the world of commerce was more open, egalitarian, permissive of range than the university world. And that when you got sacked from your job in business at least it was for a good reason. On Dec. l2 James Sherry, suggested that corporations treated workers better in comparable positions than universities. Well, Tom & Ron, you do make some good points. I'd like to hear more about the not WORKING for LIVING option. I don't suppose there are too many on the List. About PRIVATE MEANS and how to come by them. There 's not much history in this discussion, but I believe the Modernists , especially those expatriates living in Europe, had great access to such means. Is there a book on patronage and the avant-garde? I am, of course, aware that the issue for many is whether it is more dishon- ourable to work for business or the university, and that taking money from aristocrats or magnates as they used to be called, may be even more dis- honourable, but isn't the question: is it possible in this culture to be a full poet, to work for a living as a artist, important to the discussion ? Here there a few residences and fellowships which allow poets a year now and then ( the residences are at the universities, and academics who happen to be poets can't apply!), but the full-time artists I know are painters and sculptors. That's a clear distinction, and a pretty recent one here: visual artists can live off their work, poets can't. They need a day job (which is ho Bruce Andrews described his university position to me). Wystan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 08:24:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Re-Academy In-Reply-To: <9412150353.AA17768@jazz.epas.utoronto.ca> from "w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ" at Dec 15, 94 02:45:20 pm Thank you Wystan Curnow, for setting the record straight. I was beginning to think I had dozed off at the screen and dreamt it all. I mean I know I dozed off at the screen, but I could have sworn it was in the midst of some strange corporate/university competition. As for "PRIVATE MEANS and how to come by them", the two time honored methods are: 1) inherit it, 2) marry it. If these two methods are unavailable to you, then all that's left, I think, is to schlepp through it with the rest of us. Alas and alack. Best, Mike mboughn@epas.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 08:47:06 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: ASSORTED In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:39:38 -0500 from Whoah Chris-- I never opposed the individual to the group. No luxury ontology here- just an economy model-- fueled by clarity and compassion rather than rage, hatred and projection. Rodger Kamenetz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 09:54:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: NEA ??? In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Dec 1994 22:45:24 -0600 from Along with scenarios Charles Alexander mentioned vis-a-vis the latest attack on the NEA, I have also heard that the Newtuplicans are thinking of applying their standard procedure--defederalizing the NEA by turning arts funding (along with welfare, etc.) over to the states. Could you, Charles, make time to report on Sunday's proceedings to the list? Also, has anyone learned of the Literary Network's strategy for defending the program? Steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 17:34:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Academy, etc. Pierre The more I think about your last few posts, the more obvious it becomes to me that you are trying to cover your tracks after having more or less invited the whole list over to your house (humor, chuckle). I think we shd return to that notion and salute you for issueing the invitation. What a wonderful idea to unite all these virtual entities in a veritable cook-out say sometime next spring. Think about it, y'all. Set a date. tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 18:42:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Re-Academy well, what I said was that *I* had been fired for good reasons; others may not have the same stake to claim. tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 18:51:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns re "The only legitimate news is the weather." Because the predictive failure rate is so high... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 21:39:39 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: NEA ??? >has anyone learned of the Literary Network's >strategy for defending the program? The Literary Network was largely a one-woman project (Lisa Cooley), and as far as i know, when she left in the spring, the thing went on the back burner... and, while i'm a fan of newts (& efts) & not of Newt, i'm no big fan of the NEA, either... do they really contribute all that much to non-mainstream culture? luigi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 11:48:36 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Re: Experiments I've read through and felt challenged by the experiwhat? discussions on and off for some time now. Yes, it is quite wrong to fall into the trap of using the word glibly. Still, metaphors are there precisely to extend the range of words, to allow us to use them where they both do *and* do not signify what we previously agreed they signified. I produce texts based on procedures and algorithms similar to those in Charles B's splendid list. The use of such procedures is of course not new, but in this (the network) context we should be much more aware of the tools now available which allow us to make literary experiments using such techniques in 'real time'. Until recently we've known about these procedures and when we've felt ludic we've sat down with siccors and paste. Now, with a little more trouble, you can learn a simple programming language and do the same. But once you've done this, the process of compostion, perhaps of writing itself has shifted to a new site. With a machine I can get feedback from the results of my procedures quick enough to adjust them according to non-arbitrary criteria. I can make my algorithms 'learn' more about the given texts and/or my responses to them. I can re-write the given texts so that they are better modulated by the algorithms. This is similar to experimental processes, isn't it? Finally, and importantly, I can provide suitably equipped readers with as-it-happens-but-never-the-same-twice performances of the procedures which they can 'read' on their own screens. >Don Byrd wrote: > > After a >certain point, chaos no longer needed the help of art. To recall >wild nature in tranquility, to practice nihilistic techniques of >art and thought, to do automatic writing, or to create chance >generated art is a pointless gesture. All I can say is why so? I do not feel that I am making a pointless gesture. Even if all that was obtainable from such procedures was a more liberated approach to the literary experience, they would still be worthwhile. Personally I believe they are adequate compostional strategies with the potential to produce significant art. > It seems to me that these experiments at this late date >call us back to means that are as exhausted as the means of a >poetry that still attempts to make "ordinary" sense of a world >where one watch a blue jay crap and thinks of mortality or >Aunt Minnie. > > If we are going to experiment, let us experiment with all >seriousness. > I do undertake these (?) experiments in all seriousness. I compose the algorithms and choose or write the underlying texts. I intend to produce something that is fascinating, perhaps beautiful, and that has significant content. Apart from the form and content of the resulting texts themselves, I believe the processes are of theoretical interest (even when using very simple algorithims such as those in Charles' list) in relation to questions of _Language as Choice and Chance_ (title of a book on mathematical grammars by G. Herdan), and the nature of meaning (it's strange resistance to semi-arbitrary processes). If it doesn't work, I can go back to the writing board. It is precisely the late date of this practice that allows me to develop it in this way. ----------- John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk ----------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 10:31:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Academy, etc. In-Reply-To: <199412152235.RAA17636@sarah.albany.edu> from "Tom Mandel" at Dec 15, 94 05:34:27 pm Tom, re your last message: > > Pierre > The more I think about your last few posts, the more > obvious it becomes to me that you are trying to cover your tracks > after having more or less invited the whole list over to your > house (humor, chuckle). I think we shd return to that notion > and salute you for issueing the invitation. What a wonderful > idea to unite all these virtual entities in a veritable cook-out > say sometime next spring. Think about it, y'all. Set a date. > > tom > what a nice attack ad hominem et domum eis (or shld that be suum?)! But why wait for spring? Here (see below) is the occasion, this very January. A read-in & a cook-in, with hilaritas as m.c.-- should you want to haul veritable ass out of virtual land & over here to Nueva Albania. _Pace_ the dis- & in-corpserations, the hackedemias & medias, over here we do still experiwhatever, write new menus & cook the books. Pierre JANUARY 19-21, 1995 / Albany, NY p r e s e n t (a t i o n s o f) the f u t u r e We are circulating this announcement to let people know of a very informal gathering of active "poets" in Albany in January 1995. Organizers are associated with the University at Albany's literary journal, The Little Magazine. However, it is a non-university sponsored event, and will exit in the tones in which those involved choose to conduct it (a few miles away from campus). We can provide some places for people to stay for a couple of nights, and may be able to offer some "gas money". If you are interested in presenting your work and presence, please contact us as soon as possible (i.e. RSVP) via phone (518-442-4398) or mail (c/o Belle Gironda 730 Morris St. Albany NY 12208). 1/19 (thursday) -morning WRPI radio-- on air reading(s) 1/20 (friday) -afternoon presentations/discussion regarding "The Future &'Poetry'" (Albany Public Library) -evening informal reading(s) at Pierre & Nicole's/interactive poetry w/Nuyorican Poets Cafe, NYC 1/21 (saturday) -early afternoon presentations/discussion > poetics/technology (Albany Public Library) -late afternoon / early evening public reading (Mother Earth's Cafe) (includes dinner) Bonfire TBA 1/22 -late morning bagel brunch at Don's This schedule can and will be expanded in response to your interest(s) and input. We hope to hear from you! Chris Funkhouser editor, The Little Magzine 12 December 94 ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 11:12:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER In-Reply-To: <199412131527.KAA17273@sarah.albany.edu> from "Mark Wallace" at Dec 13, 94 09:44:08 am "My Father who art in heaven, stay there, damn it." ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | He who wants to escape the world, translates it. Dept. of English | --Henri Michaux SUNY Albany | Albany NY 12222 | "Herman has taken to writing poetry. You tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | need not tell anyone, for you know how email: | such things get around." joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| --Mrs. Melville in a letter to her mother. ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 12:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Donald J. Byrd" Subject: Re: Experiments In-Reply-To: <199412161148.GAA28502@sarah.albany.edu> from "John Cayley" at Dec 16, 94 11:48:36 am John Cayley is under the impression that seriousness is rather like intent, some soulful condition that one adopts at the moment of rolling the dice or whatever. Wittgenstein's cogent argument on intent, I believe, applies here as well. Seriousness rather is a matter of consequences. To be sure, any one who finds algorithmic and aleatory modes of creation useful should use them. I find them useful a pedagogical tools, generally for the purpose of un-educating people who have learned wrong-headed lessons too well. Likewise, I think the kind of poem practiced by the official verse culture might be important for personal use, such as therapy, for example. There is a vast amount of personal material that might be usefully made objective by poetic means. (The young man who held a course in Greek culture here in Albany hostage this week believed that the police were embedding computer chips in his penis. Obviously, he needed to call attention to this fact, and he used a gun. In less extreme cases a certain kind of writing might serve as well.) Don Byrd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 13:11:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Re: Exp mag list In-Reply-To: <199412142148.NAA01272@slip-1.slip.net> Charles B. has asked me to send my magazine list to all participants here. I am happy to oblige, as free circulation of info is what this is all about. I am interested in feedback (especially updates for the list) but please don't ask me to engage in arguments or discussion about the term "experimental." I've used it for want of something better, not because I feel committed to it as a meaningful or accurate label. List of Experimental Poetry/Art Magazines P.O. Box 590095 San Francisco CA 94159 U.S. MAGAZINES ### ABACUS, Peter Ganick, 181 Edgemont Ave, Elmwood CT 06110 ### AERIAL, Rod Smith, Box 25642, Wash D.C. 20007 ### AMERICAN LETTERS AND COMMENTARY, Jeanne Beamont & Anna Rabinowitz, 850 Park Avenue Suite 5B, NY NY 10021 ### APEX OF THE M, Box 247, Buffalo NY 14213 ### ARRAS, Brian Kim Stefans, 336 W. 19th St #22, New York, NY 10011 ### ARSHILE, Mark Salerno, Box 26366, L.A. CA 90026 ### ARTCRIMES, 2672 West 14th St, Cleveland OH 44113 ### ASYLUM, Greg Boyd, Box 6203, Santa Maria CA 93456 ### ATELIER, Sarah Jensen, Box 580, Boston MA 02117 ### AVEC, Cydney Chadwick, Box 1059, Penngrove CA 94951 ### B CITY, Connie Deanovich, 517 North Fourth St, Dekalb IL 60115 ### BIG ALLIS, Jessica Grim, Melanie Neilson, 136 Morgan St., Oberlin OH 44070 ### BLACK BREAD, Sianne Ngai, Jessica Lowenthal, 366 Thayer St. #3, Providence RI 02906 ### BLADES, 182 Orchard Rd, Newark DE 19711 ### BLUE RYDER, Ken Wagner, Box 587, Olean NY 14760 ### THE BOMB, Ben Baxter, 719 Almond St, Nampa ID 83686 ### BOMBAY GIN, Naropa Institute, 2130 Arapahoe Ave, Boulder CO 80302 ### BUGHOUSE, Doug Blumhardt, Eric Peterson, Box 4817, Albuquerque NM 87196 ### BULLHEAD, Joe Napora, 2205 Moore St, Ashland KY 41101 ### CALIBAN, Lawrence Smith, Box 561, Laguna Beach CA 92652 ### CAMELLIA, Tomer Inbar, Box 417 Village Station, N.Y. NY 10014 ### CATHAY, Gale Nelson, 11 Slater Avenue, Providence RI 02906 ### CENTRAL PARK, Stephen Paul Martin, Eve Ensler, Box 1446 NY NY 10023 ### CLWN WR, Box 2165, Church St Station, NY NY 10008 ### COMPOUND EYE, Ange Mlinko, 10 Eliot #2, Somerville MA 02143 ### CONJUNCTIONS, Bradford Morrow, 33 W. 9th St., NY NY 10011 ### COTTON GIN, Chris Stafford 3408 Burlington Rd., Greensboro NC 27405 ### CROTON BUG, Bob Harrison, Box 1116, Milwaukee WI 53211 ### CWM, 1300 Kicker Rd., Tuscaloosa AL 35404 ### CYANOSIS, Darin De Stefano, 318 Mendocino Ave, Suite #30, Santa Rosa CA 95404 ### DADA TENNIS, Bill Paulauskas, Box 10, Woodhaven Ny 11421 ### DENVER QUARTERLY, Bin Ramke, Dept of English, U. of Denver, Denver CO 80208 ### DIE YOUNG, Skip Fox, English Dept, Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana, Lafayette LA 70504 ### DREAMTIME TALKING MAIL, Miekal And, Liz Was, Rt 1 Box 131, Lafarge WI 54639 ### DRIVER'S SIDE AIRBAG, Mike Halchin, Box 25760, L.A. CA 90025 ### DROP FORGE, Sean Winchester, PO Box 7237, Reno NV 98510 ### ELEPHANT, Douglas Messerli, 6026 Wilshire Blvd, Los Angeles CA 90036 ### EXILE, 149 Virginia St #7, St Paul MN 55102 ### EXPERIODICIST, Jake Berry, Box 3112, Florence AL 35630 ### EXQUISITE CORPSE, Box 25051, Baton Rouge LA 70894 ### FIRST INTENSITY, Lee Chapman, Box 140713, Staten Island NY 10314 ### FISH WRAP, Jim Maloney, 921&1/2 24th Ave, Seattle WA 98122 ### FIVE FINGERS REVIEW, Box 15426, San Francisco CA 94115 ### FOUND STREET, Larry Tomoyasu, 2260 S. Ferdinand Ave., Monterey Park CA 91754 ### GENERATOR, John Byrum, 8139 Midland Rd., Mentor OH 44060 ### GRIST ON-LINE, Box 20805, Columbus Circle Station, New York NY 10023 ### HAMBONE, Nathaniel Mackey, 134 Hunolt St. Santa Cruz CA 95060 ### HEAVEN BONE, Steven Hirsch, Box 486, Chester NY 10918 ### HOUSE ORGAN, Kenneth Warren, 1250 Belle Avenue, Lakewood OH 44107 ### I AM A CHILD, William Howell, 418 Richmond Ave. #2, Buffalo NY 14222 ### THE IMPERCIPIENT, Jennifer Moxley, 61 E. Manning, Providence RI 02906 ### THE IMPLODING TIE-DIED TOUPEE / MISSIONARY STEW Keith Higgenbotham & Tracy Combs, 100 Courtland Drive, Columbia SC 29223 ### INDEFINITE SPACE, Marcia Arrieta, Box 40101, Pasadena CA 91114 ### INTERRUPTIONS, Tom Beckett, 131 N. Pearl St., Kent OH 44240 ### JUXTA, Ken Harris, Jim Leftwich, 977 Seminole Trail, Charlottesville VA 22901 ### KIOSK, Nick Gillespie, 306 Clemens Hall, S.U.N.Y, Buffalo NY 14260 ### LETTERBOX, Scott Bentley, 3791 Latimer Pl., Oakland CA 94609 ### LIFT, Joseph Torra, 10-R Oxford St (Rear), Somerville MA 02143 ### LILLIPUT REVIEW, Don Wentworth, 207 S. Millvale Ave #3, Pittsburgh PA 15224 ### LINGO, Jonathan Gams, Michael Gizzi, Box 184, West Stockbridge MA 01266 ### LOGODAEDALUS, Paul Weidenhoff & W.B. Keckler, Box 14193, Harrisburg PA 17104 ### LONG BEACH GUTS-ETTE, Box 2730, Long Beach CA 90801 ### LONG NEWS, Barbara Henning, Box 150-455, Brooklyn NY 11215 ### LOST AND FOUND TIMES, John M. Bennett, 137 Leland Ave, Columbus OH 43214 ### LOWER LIMIT SPEECH, A.L. Nielsen, 1743 Butler Ave #2, L.A. CA 90025 ### LYRIC&, Avery Burns, Box 640531, San Francisco CA 94164 ### MA!, David Kirschenbaum, Box 221, Oceanside NY 11572 ### MALCONTENT, Laura Poll, Box 703, Naversink NJ 07752 ### MALLIFE, Mike Miskowski, Box 17686, Phoenix AZ 85011, ### MEAT EPOCH, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, 3055 Decatur Ave Apt 2-D, Bronx NY 10467 ### MIRAGE #4/PERIOD(ICAL), Kevin Killian & Dodie Bellamy, 1020 Minna St, San Francisco CA 94103 ### NEW AMERICAN WRITING, Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover, 2920 West Pratt, Chicago IL 60645 NORTH AMERICAN IDEOPHONICS, Mark Nowak, Box 13561 Minneapolis MN 55414 ### O.ARS. Don Wellman, 21 Rockland Rd., Weare NH 03281 ### OBJECT, Robert Fitterman & Kim Rosenfeld, 229 Hudson St #4, NY NY 10013 ### OBLEK, Connell McGrath, Box 1242, Stockbridge MA 01262 ### OPEN 24 HOURS, Buck Downs, Box 50376, Washington D.C. 20091 ### O!!ZONE, Harry Burrus, 1266 Fountain View Dr. Houston TX 77057 ### PAPER RADIO, Neil Kvern, Box 4646, Seattle WA 98104 ### PARADOX, Dan Bodah, Box 643, Saranac Lake NY 12983 ### PAVEMENT SAW, David Baratier, 7 James St., Scotia NY 12302 ### POETIC BRIEFS, Jefferson Hansen & Elizabeth Burns, 31 Parkwood St #3, Albany NY 12208 ### POETRY USA, Jack Foley, 2569 Maxwell Ave, Oakland CA ### PRIVATE ARTS, D. R. Heniger, 600 S. Dearborn #2209, Chicago IL 60605 ### PROSODIA, New College of California, 766 Valencia San Francisco CA 94110 ### RE*MAP, Carolyn Kemp & Todd Baron, 8270 Willoughby Ave, Los Angeles CA 90046 ### RIBOT, Paul Vangelesti, Box 65798, Los Angeles CA 90065 ### ROOMS, 652 Woodland Ave., San Leandro CA 94577 ### SHATTERED WIG REVIEW, Rupert Wondolowski, 2407 N. Maryland #1, Baltimore MD 21218 ### SITUATION, Mark Wallace, 10402 Ewell Ave, Kensington MD 20895 ### 6IX, 914 Leisz's Bridge Rd, Reading PA 19119 ### SPLIT CITY, Jim Lang, Box 110171, Cleveland OH 44111 ### SUBTLE JOURNAL OF RAW COINAGE, Geof Huth, 875 Central Pkwy, Niskayuna, NY 12309 ### SULFUR, Clayton Eshleman, English Dept, Eastern Michigan U., Ypsilanti MI 48197 ### SYN/AES/THE/TIC, Alex Cigale, 178-10 Wexford Terrace Apt 3D, Jamaica NY 11432 ### TALISMAN, Ed Foster, Box 1117, Hoboken NJ 07030 ### TAPROOT REVIEWS, Luigi Bob Drake, Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107 ### TENSETENDONED, M.B. Corbett, Box 155, Preston Park PA 18455 ### TEXTURE, Susan Smith Nash, 3760 Cedar Ridge Drive, Norman OK 73072 ### TIGHT, Ann Erickson, Box 1591, Guerneville CA 95446 ### TIN WREATH, David Gonsalves, P.O. Box 13491, Albany NY 12212 ### TO, Seth Frechie & Andrew Mossin, Box 121, Narberth PA 19072 ### TORQUE, Liz Fodaski, Box 118, Canal City Station, N.Y. NY 10013 ### TRANSMOG, Ficus Strangulensis, Route 6 Box 138, Charleston WV 25311 ### TRIAGE, Box 1166, Sterling Heights MI 48311 ### TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FIRE, Philip Good, 675A West Mombasha Rd, Monroe NY 10950 ### TURBULENCE, David Nemeth, Box 40, Hockessin DE 19707 ### TYUONYI, Phillip Foss, Box 23266, Santa Fe NM 87502 ### VIZ, 117 Front St., Hattiesburg MS 39401 ### UMBRELLA, Judith Hoffberg, Box 40100, Pasadena CA 91114 ### VOLT, Gillian Conoley, 4104 24th St #355, San Francisco CA 94114 ### VORTEXT, Ezra Mark, Box 23194 Seattle WA 98102 ### THE WASHINGTON REVIEW, Joe Ross, Box 50132, Washington D.C. 20091 ### WHITEWALL OF SOUND, Jim Clinefelter, 1320 W. 116th #9, Cleveland OH 44102 ### WITZ, Christopher Reiner, 10604 Whipple St, Toluca Lake CA 91602 ### W'ORCS/ALOUD ALLOWED, Ralph LaCharity, Box 27309, Cincinnati OH 45227 ### THE WORLD, Lewis Warsh, Poetry Project at St Mark's, 10th St & 2nd Ave, NY NY 10003 ### WORLD LETTER, Jon Cone, 2726 E. Court, Iowa City IA 52245 ### WRAY, V. Marek & J. Welch, Box 91502, Cleveland OH 44101 ### XIB, Tolek, Box 26112, San Diego CA 92126 ### X-RAY MAGAZINE, Johnny Brewton, Box 170011, San Francisco CA 94117 ### YEFIEF, Ann Racuya-Robbins, Box 8505, Santa Fe NM 87504 ### ZYX, Arnold Skemer, 58-09 205th St, Bayside NY 11364 ### CANADIAN MAGAZINES ### BRITISH COLUMBIA MONTHLY, Gerry Gilbert, Box 48884, Station Bent., Vancouver, B. C. V7X 1A8 ### CABARET VERT, Beth Learn, Box 157 Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2S7 ### COLLECTIF REPARATION DE POESIE, Jean-Claude Gagnon, 359 rue Lavigueur # 1, Quebec, Quebec G1R 1B3 ### CRASH, Maggie Helwig, Box 562, Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2T1 ### ESPACE GLOBAL, Alain-Arthur Painchaud, 755 Est Avenue Mont-Royal, Montreal, Quebec H2J 1W8 ### HOLE, Louis Cabri, 123 Irving Ave., Ottawa, Ontario K1Y 1Z3 ### INDUSTRIAL SABOTAGE, 1CENT, SPUDBURN, J.W. Curry, 1357 Landsdowne Rd, Toronto, Ontario M6H 3Z9 ### JONES AV, 88 Dagmar Av, Toronto, Ontario M4M 1W1 ### OVERSION, John Barlow, 1069 Bathurst St (3rd Floor) Toronto Ontario M5R 3G8 ### PARAGRAPH, Beverly Daurio, 137 Birmingham St, Stratford, Ontario N5A 2T1 ### POETRY THREAT, Clint Burnham, 1-269 Augusta Ave, Toronto Ontario M5T 2M1 ### PUSH MACHINERY, Daniel Bradley, 30 Gloucester St #1005, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 1L6 ### RADDLE MOON, Susan Clark, 2239 Stephens St, Vancouver B.C. V6K 3W5 ### SIN OVER TAN, Box 153 Station P, Toronto, Ontario M5S 2S7 ### STAINED PAPER ARCHIVE, Gustave Morin, 1792 Byng Road, Windsor, Ontario N8W 3C8 ### TONGUE TIDE, Tom Snyders, 201-1067 Granville St, Vancouver, B.C. V6Z 1L4 ### WHO TORCHED RANCHO DIABLO,MONDO HUNKAMOOGA, Stuart Ross, Box 141, Station F, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 2L4 ### ZAG, Steve Banks, 69R Nassau St, Toronto, Ontario M5T 1M6 ### U.K. MAGAZINES ### ACTIVE IN AIRTIME, Ralph Hawkins, 53 East Hill, Colchester, Essex CO1 3QY ### AND, Bob Cobbing, 89A Petherton Rd, London N5 2QT ### ANGEL EXHAUST, Andrew Duncan, 2 Lovelace Gardens, Southend-on-Sea SS2 4NU ### EONTA, 27 Alexandra Rd, Wimbledon, London SW19 7IJ ### FIRE, Chris Ozzard, 3 Holywell Mews, Hollywell, Malvern, Worcs WR14 1LF ### FIRST OFFENSE, Tim Fletcher, Syringa, The Street, Stodmarsh, Canterbury, Kent CT3 4BA ### FRAGMENTE, Anthony Mellors, Flat 11 Landsdown House, Wilmslow Rd, Didsbury Village, Manchester M20 6OJ ### GRILLE, Simon Smith, 53 Ormonde Court, Upper Richmond Rd., Putney London SW15 5TP ### INTERFERENCE, Michael Gardner, Wadham College, Parks Rd, Oxford OX1 3PN ### INTIMACY, Adam McKeown, 4 Bower St, Maidstone, Kent ME16 8SD ### OASIS, Ian Robinson, 12 Stevenage Rd., London SW6 6ES ### OBJECT PERMANENCE, Peter Manson & Robert Purves, Flat 3/2 16 Ancroft St, Glasgow Scotland 7HU G20 ### OSTINATO, Box 522, London N8 7SZ ### PAGES, Robert Sheppard, 239 Lessingham Ave, London SW17 8NQ ### PARATAXIS, Drew Milne, School of English Studies, Arts Building, Univ of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9NQ ### PURGE, Robert Hampson, 88 Ashburnham Rd, London NW10 5SE ### RAMRAID EXTRAORDINAIRE, Kerry Sowerby, 2 Midland Rd., Hyde Park, Leeds LS6 1BQ ### RESPONSES, Periera & Rollinson, Minister College, Minister Rd, Isle of Sheppey, Kent ME12 3JQ ### RWC, Lawrence Upton, 16 Southview Ave, Caversham, Reading RG4 0AD ### SHEARSMAN, Tony Frazer, c/o Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank, Macau Mgt Office, Box 476, Macua ### SPANNER, Allen Fisher, 14 Hopton Road, Hereford HR1 1BE ### STRIDE, Rupert Loydell, 11 Sylvan Rd, Exeter, Devon EX4 6EX### TALUS, Marzia Balzani & Shamoon Zamir, Dept of English, King's College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS ### TERRIBLE WORK, Tim Allen, 21 Overton Gardens, Mannamead, Plymouth PL3 5BX ### 3 X 4, John Mingay, 2 Henderson St, Kingseat by Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland KY12 0TP ### WORDS WORTH, Richard Tabor, Alaric Sumner, 1 Dairy Cottage, Crompton Rd. South Cadbury, Yeovil, Somerset BA22 7E7 ### CONTINENTAL EUROPE AND ELSEWHERE ### ABSURDISTISCHE, Rainer Golchert, Soderstrasse 29, 64283 Darmstadt Germany ### ACTION POETIQUE, Henri Deluy, 113 rue Anatole France, 92300 Levallois-Perret, France ### ALIRE, 57 allee des Coquelicots, 59650 Villeneuve-d'Ascq, France ### ARNYEKYOTOK, Szasz Janos, Timdr u 17 fsz 3, H- Budapest III, Hungary ### AU/ART UNIDENTIFIED, 1-1-10-301 Koshienguchi, Nishinomiya, Hyogo, 663 Japan ### BLAST, Box 3514, Manuka, ACT 2603, Australia ### BRIO CELL, J. Lehmus, Stenbocksv. 24, 02860 Esbo, Finland ### CARPETAS EL PARAISO, Jose Luis Campal, Apt N. 6, 33980 Pola de Lavinia, Asturias, Spain ### CELACANTO, Marcelo Casarin, Quisquisacate 125, 5000 Cordoba, Argentina ### COMMUNICARTE, Hugo Pontes, Caixa Postal 922, 37701-970 Pocos de Caldas, Brazil ### DANS UN MONDE ABANDONNE DES FACTEURS, Mathieu Benezet, 3bis rue Jean Sicard, 75015 Paris, France ### DAS FROLICHE WOHNZIMMER, Fritz Widhalm, Fuhrmanngasse 1A/7, 1080 Wien Austria ### DIMENSAO, Guido Biharinho, Caixa Postal 140, Uberaba 38001, Brazil ### DOC(K)S, Phillipe Castellin, 20 Rue Bonaparte, Ajaccio, France 2000 ### DOUBLE, Rea Nikonova, Sverdlova 175, Eysk 353660, Russia ### EX-SYMPOSIUM, 8200 Veszprem, Anyos u. 1-3 Hungary ### FIG., Jean Davie, 3bi rue Fessart, 75019 Paris, France ### FREIE ZEIT ART, Postfach 82, A-1195 Vienna, Austria ### GOING DOWN SWINGING, Box 64, Coburg, Victoria 3058, Australia ### GRAFFITI, Horacio Versi, Colonia 815, of. 105, Montevideo, Uruguay ### IF, Jean-Jacques Viton, 12 Place Castellane, 13006 Marseille, France ### KARTA, Bartek Nowak, Spoldzielcza 3/39, 42 300 Myszkow, Poland ### LAZA LAPOK, Gabor Toth, 1038 Budapest, Korhaz u. 7. Hungary ### JALOUSE PRATIQUE, Herve Bauer & Jean-Marc Scanreigh, 80 rue Henon, 69004 Lyon, France ### LE CAHIER DU REFUGE, Center International de Poesie Marseille, Couvent du Refuge, 1 rue des Honneurs, 13002 Marseille, France ### MAGYAR MUHELY, Tibor Papp, 40 Rue Pascal, 75013 Paris France ### MANDORLA, Roberto Tejada, Apartado postal 5-366, Mexico D.F., Mexico 06500, ### MANI ART, Pascal Lenoir, 11 Ruelle De Champagne, 60680 Grandfresnoy, France ### MINIATURE OBSCURE, Gerhild Ebel, Cornelia Ahnert, Landrain 143, 06118 Halle/Saale, Germany ### MITO, via G. Bruno 37, 80035 Nola, Italy ### MOHS, Kate McMeekin, 8 rue Chaptal, 44100 Nantes France ### MONDRAGON, Nel Amaro, S. Francisco F-32, 3-A, 33610 Turon, Asturias, Spain ### NIOQUES, Jean-Marie Gleize, 4 rue de Cromer, 26400 Crest, France ### NON (+) ULTRA, Matthias Schamp, Grosse-Weischede-Strasse 1, 44803 Bochum, Germany ### OFFERTA SPECIALE, Carla Bertola, Corso De Nicola 20, 10128 Torino, Italy ### OLHO LATINO, Paulo Cheida Sans, Rua Padre Bernardo da Silva 856, 13030 Campinas, SP, Brazil ### OTIS RUSH, Ken Bolton, P.O. Box 21, North Adelaide, South Australia 5006 ### PIEDRA LUNAR, Corpa, Urb. Los Cantos, 38, Bargas, Toledo, Spain ### PINTALO DE VERDE, Antonio Gomez, APDO 186, 06800 Merida, Badajoz, Spain ### PIPS DADA CORPORATION, Claudio Puetz, Beethovenstr. 40, 53115 Bonn, Germany ### PLURAL, Paseo de la Reforma 18.1 piso, Deleg. Cuauhtemoc, DF 06600, Mexico ### P.O. Box (Merz Mail), Pere Sousa, apdo 9326, 08080 Barcelona Spain ### POESIE, Micel Deguy, 8 rue Ferou, 75278 Paris Cedex 06, France ### POEZINE, Rua Seride 486, apt 1106, CEP 59020 Natal RN, Brazil ### POSTFLUXPOSTBOOKLET, Luce Fierens, Boterstraat 43, B-2811, Hombeek, Belgium ### PRAKALPANA LITERATURE, KOBISENA, P-40 Nandana Park, Calcutta 700034, West Bengal, India ### SCARP, Ron Pretty, Univ of Wollongong, Box 1144, Wollongong, NSW 2500, Australia ### SHISHI, Shoji Yoshizawa, 166 Suginami-ku koenjikita, 3-31-5 Tokyo, Japan ### SIVULLINEN, Jouni Vaarakangas, Kaarelantie 86 B 28, 00420 Helsinki, Finland ### SOUTERRAINS & LOLA FISH, Bruno Pommey, 10 Residence Jean Mace, 28300 Mainvilliers, France ### SPINNE, Dirk Frohlich, Priessnitzstrasse 19, 01099 Dresden, Germany ### SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand ### SUB BILD, Willem van Dijk, Untere Badstrasse 32, 69412 Eberbach, Germany ### TABOO JADOO, Javant Biaruja, GPO Box 994/H, Melbourne, Victoria 3001 Australia ### TARTINE, Catherine Lorin & Regis Tillet, 1 rue Ferdinand Duval, 75004 Paris, France ### TERAZ MOWIE, Hartmut Andryczuk, postlagernd, 12154 Berlin, Germany ### UNI/VERS(;), Guillermo Deisler, Kirchnerstrabe 11, 06112 Halle (Saale), Germany ### YE, Theo Breuer, Neustrasse 2, 53925 Sistig/Eifel, Germany ### ZOOM-ZOUM, Josee Lapeyrere, 4 rue des Carmes, 75005 Paris, France ### The preceding list is based on the research and judgments of Spencer Selby. The term "experimental" is not meant as a characterization of anyone's specific editorial focus or perspective. Please circulate, and mail possible additions, deletions, address changes or other comments to Spencer Selby, P.O. Box 590095, San Francisco CA 94159, U.S.A. email: selby@slip.net fax: 415-752-5139 This is list #12, dated 12/94 ### ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 22:51:36 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Re: Experiments > John Cayley is under the impression that seriousness is >rather like intent, some soulful condition that one adopts at the >moment of rolling the dice or whatever. Wittgenstein's cogent argument >on intent, I believe, applies here as well. > > Seriousness rather is a matter of consequences. To be >sure, any one who finds algorithmic and aleatory modes of creation >useful should use them. > > Don Byrd > No. I agree that seriousness is not a function of intent (I cringe anglophilially at the thought of shifting Yi Ching stalks with a heavy frown of high-mindedness) and I apologize if I introduced that confusion. Yes, seriousness is a consequence of the work and consequent to its publication. The author has no particular priviledge in determining its seriousness. But these questions skirt around the point I was trying to make. Given the existence of machines which are capable of reordering works of literature, certain writers will wish to use the techniques newly made available to extend their range of compositional strategies. The familiar algorithmic and aleatory techniques are natural starting points but the degree of control and level of feedback which the new tools provide changes the nature of the operation. It is less like a liberating game and more like the painful work of composition. It is a type of practice that should not be dismissed and which will, I believe produce important literary works in the fullness of time. (This is not to say that I'm not happy to play the game as light-heartedly as anyone else, by the way :-) ----------- John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk ----------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 19:18:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Steve Evans Comments: Originally-From: Steve Evans From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: NEA ??? In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Dec 1994 21:39:39 -0500 from This message, intended for the list, had the consequence of going directly to luigi-bob. Now it has another consequence. /SE ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I'm actually unfamiliar with the Literary Network, i.e. what it does and how well, but I'm assured by someone who spoke with their office last week that it does exist and that they are working on defending the NEA/NEH come the next round of assaults (possibly as early as January). The phone number is 217-941-9110, and the person to speak with Ann Burke (though that spelling may be wrong, I've only heard the name). I'm told it's best to call after one in the afternoon. (The LN shares the phone line, btw, with the Coucil of Literary Magazines and Publishers). Does the NEA contribute "all that much to non-mainstream culture," as luigi-bob puts it? A *very* large number of the books in my poetry library acknowledge NEA support of one form or another, so my answer would have to be yes. But when I originally raised to issue, it was with the intent of generating discussion on how the next round of debate on the program could be framed so that maintenance of a biased and unresponsive system was *not* our only option/position. Very simply, it can't be changed if it ain't there--we need to argue for the elimination of what's wrong with the current program, not the program itself. Reading over the language of the act this afternoon, I was struck by the seventh clause: "The practice of art and the study of the humanities requires constant dedication and devotion. While no government can call a great artist or scholar into existence, it is necessary and appropriate for the Federal Government to help create and sustain not only a climate encouraging freedom of thought, imagination, and inquiry but also the material conditions facilitating the release of this creative talent." It seems to me that we should be able to work with claims like that. No? Steve Evans ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 21:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: ASSORTED Dear rodger--I am finally done with this "hellish" semester and no longer consider dealing with the "internal enemy" a luxury but a necessity. Anyway, what is lacking from this discussion for the most part seems to be poetry. I don't mean as artifact (THOUGH EVEN THAT WOULD BE REFRESHING) but a "poetic intelligence" that can inform the discussions. Though I am not the only one who can be seen as having tried to crush IT the few the times the discussion at least seemed to move tentatively towards it (AND I definitely owe rodger kamanetz an apology on this count). WHAT KAMENETZ brought up--the question of not worrying about a "them" (which to some extent is what Charles Alexander and maybe Steve Evans too) NEED NOT BE EMBRACED IN EVERY CIRCUMSTANCE to be an effective counter to what Don Byrd calls "the prose of thought" that has been manifested here. Without it, aren't we just yakking opiners??? Even with it we might be, but at least it might be more "fun" (and I say "fun" where others might say more "spiritual") WHAT IS KEEPING an open mind entail??? Being wishy-washy? Wavering between politics-as-politics and politics-as-poetry as a starting point of the meditation and not really worrying how or where it goes as long as it's intense??? Attitudes cancel each other out. Turning back to a DISCOURSE of politics either out of guilt, the feeling you're missing out on something, feeling too lopsided, or even pissed off at genuine disenfranchisement may be absolutely necessary at times But it too is no answer (and can reify into so much primping posturing) As if consciousness moves through trite seasons And the second you name something it stops (OOH, OOH, IDEOLOGICAL DODGE, refusal to implicate one's INEVITABLE partaking in a bourgeois ideology--arrest him even though no one will marry him because he doesn't make enough money) But the desire to "divvy" consciousness up into characters is one thing both theorists (critics) and lyric poets deny---This is a denial they have in common, unless we read poetry as a novelist would (which we can) and see WORDS, ideas, images, gestures, whathaveyou as characters... And this should free us to live "inconsistenly" by theory's standards... (of course, you're not suppossed to SAY THIS ON THE PAGE, only on your tombstone, and even then only if you're FRANK O'HARA) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 21:38:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: ASSORTED reply reply Question: IS "identity" limitingly singular in "poetry" (insofar as it problematizes identity at all), as limitingly singular as it has been invoked in much of these "hot" internet debates? Aren't the debates with others the debates we have with ourselves? And if they don't always take the form of debates with ourselves, why do they have to with others?? Certainly one can communicate without being contentious??? I for one have overdosed on my own weakness for contention. Granted, it was a useful tool to go "beyond" the sickness of those "superficial mutual admiration societies" most of us probably couldn't stand... But the need to DISTINGUISH oneself has eclipsed the potential use value of what has been said, meanings tangled up in the messanger- Perhaps I'm projecting all of this and certainly don't wish for the discussion to degenerate into a forum on the psychoanalytic model of interiority or subjectivity. For "interiority" and "exteriority" are "the same" on a level that can not be utterly ghettoized without "burn baby burn" coming down from Harlem to Wall Street (or C=o=m= p=u=t=e=r=l=a=n=d), and the discourse of "curved space" is pasta or "game" for the poet... Or we could destroy something before it's built... (Because destruction can't tear itself down, strictly speaking) And sometimes WE HAVE TO LET OURSELVES GO---and that's been the MAIN VALUE of this poetic list as I see it, but is it enough to meet here only anarchically, To release TENSION here only to build it up in our more intense "heightened commodity laboratory solitude" where one churns out one's latest poetic/theory works???? It's like someone who goes public dishevelled and only dresses up when there's no place to go. It might as well be the other way around. Either way, we're victims of compartmentalization, or am i making a mountain out of molehill??? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 23:29:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: Re: ASSORTED What Chris writes about identity can be blamed (in part) for spawning this little cadenza around a desire to be able to have (hold of) multiple channels of perception at once and without moving. It occurs to me that the one-at-a-timeness of perception (maybe a mere matter of faulty programming we've had) may have yielded this curious habit of thinking of approximately one thing at a time. It isn't that the mind does not feel full (at moments), but that bringing together a full house in large measure means doing harmonics or skipping stones or something. Thus (getting back to where this started), we let out one moment of thought and then another patch of the mosaic (someone else) recites this other moment of thought, from perhaps a completely different context. On and on. The psychoanalytic wealth behind all this is something I can't touch (but I can love!). So there you have it. One more granule! Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 05:36:48 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: NEA ??? this message, intended for Steve, had the consequence of going directly to him. now it has another consequence... lbd ----------------------------------------------- steve-- first off, yes i suppose, _any_ gov't asstistance fr the arts ought be welcomed, scarce as it is... _i_ sure wouldn't look _that_ gift horse in th mouth. & sure, it's gotta be there first if we're gonna improve it. and the claims you quote are certainly laudable... BUT the evidince I see in support of those claims is meager. some fine books in my library do indeed credit the NEA, but the vast majority do not--either they are commericially viable (more or less) on their own, or some sucker like myself has put them out themselves. i guess i'm thinking of the opening of Chas B's "provisional institutions" essay: "imagine that all the nationally circulated magazines and all the trade presses and all the university presses in the US stopped publishing or reviewing poetry. new poetry in the US would hardly feel the blow."... i guess i'd add, what if the NEA just blew away... and contrary-wise, i believe i remember Cydney Chadwick bemoaning the loss of NEA funds for AVEC--almost seemed that the _loss_ of that chimerical funding had such a negative impact (psychologicaly as much as fiscally) that it offset the original positive affect of _being_ funded. and i believe the loss of NEA funds was one (not the only) of the death-nells for Segue... all that said, glad the Lit Network is still at it, appologies for misunderstanding/misinformation i might have spread, and hoping they might be of real assistance. but sceptical. lbd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 19:50:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Selby List (re-formatted) via Electronic Poetry Center ___LIST OF EXPERIMENTAL POETRY/ART MAGAZINES___ This list is based on the research and judgments of Spencer Selby. The term expe rimental" is not meant as a characterization of anyone's specific editorial focu s or perspective. Please circulate, and mail possible additions, deletions, add ress changes or other comments to Spencer Selby, P.O. Box 590095, San Francisco CA 94159, U.S.A. email: selby@slip.net fax: 415-752-5139 This is list #12, date d 12/94 ___U.S. MAGAZINES___ ABACUS, Peter Ganick, 181 Edgemont Ave, Elmwood CT 06110 AERIAL, Rod Smith, Box 25642, Wash D.C. 20007 AMERICAN LETTERS AND COMMENTARY, Jeanne Beamont & Anna Rabinowitz, 850 Park Avenue - Suite 5B, NY NY 10021 APEX OF THE M, Box 247, Buffalo NY 14213 ARRAS, Brian Kim Stefans, 336 W. 19th St #22, New York, NY 10011 ARSHILE, Mark Salerno, Box 26366, L.A. CA 90026 ARTCRIMES, 2672 West 14th St, Cleveland OH 44113 ASYLUM, Greg Boyd, Box 6203, Santa Maria CA 93456 ATELIER, Sarah Jensen, Box 580, Boston MA 02117 AVEC, Cydney Chadwick, Box 1059, Penngrove CA 94951 B CITY, Connie Deanovich, 517 North Fourth St, Dekalb IL 60115 BIG ALLIS, Jessica Grim, Melanie Neilson, 136 Morgan St., Oberlin OH 44070 BLACK BREAD, Sianne Ngai, Jessica Lowenthal, 366 Thayer St. #3, Providence RI 02906 BLADES, 182 Orchard Rd, Newark DE 19711 BLUE RYDER, Ken Wagner, Box 587, Olean NY 14760 THE BOMB, Ben Baxter, 719 Almond St, Nampa ID 83686 BOMBAY GIN, Naropa Institute, 2130 Arapahoe Ave, Boulder CO 80302 BUGHOUSE, Doug Blumhardt, Eric Peterson, Box 4817, Albuquerque NM 87196 BULLHEAD, Joe Napora, 2205 Moore St, Ashland KY 41101 CALIBAN, Lawrence Smith, Box 561, Laguna Beach CA 92652 CAMELLIA, Tomer Inbar, Box 417 Village Station, N.Y. NY 10014 CATHAY, Gale Nelson, 11 Slater Avenue, Providence RI 02906 CENTRAL PARK, Stephen Paul Martin, Eve Ensler, Box 1446 NY NY 10023 CLWN WR, Box 2165, Church St Station, NY NY 10008 COMPOUND EYE, Ange Mlinko, 10 Eliot #2, Somerville MA 02143 CONJUNCTIONS, Bradford Morrow, 33 W. 9th St., NY NY 10011 COTTON GIN, Chris Stafford 3408 Burlington Rd., Greensboro NC 27405 CROTON BUG, Bob Harrison, Box 1116, Milwaukee WI 53211 CWM, 1300 Kicker Rd., Tuscaloosa AL 35404 CYANOSIS, Darin De Stefano, 318 Mendocino Ave, Suite #30, Santa Rosa CA 95404 DADA TENNIS, Bill Paulauskas, Box 10, Woodhaven Ny 11421 DENVER QUARTERLY, Bin Ramke, Dept of English, U. of Denver, Denver CO 80208 DIE YOUNG, Skip Fox, English Dept, Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana, Lafayette LA 70504 DREAMTIME TALKING MAIL, Miekal And, Liz Was, Rt 1 Box 131, Lafarge WI 54639 DRIVER'S SIDE AIRBAG, Mike Halchin, Box 25760, L.A. CA 90025 DROP FORGE, Sean Winchester, PO Box 7237, Reno NV 98510 ELEPHANT, Douglas Messerli, 6026 Wilshire Blvd, Los Angeles CA 90036 EXILE, 149 Virginia St #7, St Paul MN 55102 EXPERIODICIST, Jake Berry, Box 3112, Florence AL 35630 EXQUISITE CORPSE, Box 25051, Baton Rouge LA 70894 FIRST INTENSITY, Lee Chapman, Box 140713, Staten Island NY 10314 FISH WRAP, Jim Maloney, 921&1/2 24th Ave, Seattle WA 98122 FIVE FINGERS REVIEW, Box 15426, San Francisco CA 94115 FOUND STREET, Larry Tomoyasu, 2260 S. Ferdinand Ave., Monterey Park CA 91754 GENERATOR, John Byrum, 8139 Midland Rd., Mentor OH 44060 GRIST ON-LINE, Box 20805, Columbus Circle Station, New York NY 10023 HAMBONE, Nathaniel Mackey, 134 Hunolt St. Santa Cruz CA 95060 HEAVEN BONE, Steven Hirsch, Box 486, Chester NY 10918 HOUSE ORGAN, Kenneth Warren, 1250 Belle Avenue, Lakewood OH 44107 I AM A CHILD, William Howell, 418 Richmond Ave. #2, Buffalo NY 14222 THE IMPERCIPIENT, Jennifer Moxley, 61 E. Manning, Providence RI 02906 THE IMPLODING TIE-DIED TOUPEE / MISSIONARY STEW Keith Higgenbotham & Tracy Combs , 100 Courtland Drive, Columbia SC 29223 INDEFINITE SPACE, Marcia Arrieta, Box 40101, Pasadena CA 91114 INTERRUPTIONS, Tom Beckett, 131 N. Pearl St., Kent OH 44240 JUXTA, Ken Harris, Jim Leftwich, 977 Seminole Trail, Charlottesville VA 22901 KIOSK, Nick Gillespie, 306 Clemens Hall, S.U.N.Y, Buffalo NY 14260 LETTERBOX, Scott Bentley, 3791 Latimer Pl., Oakland CA 94609 LIFT, Joseph Torra, 10-R Oxford St (Rear), Somerville MA 02143 LILLIPUT REVIEW, Don Wentworth, 207 S. Millvale Ave #3, Pittsburgh PA 15224 LINGO, Jonathan Gams, Michael Gizzi, Box 184, West Stockbridge MA 01266 LOGODAEDALUS, Paul Weidenhoff & W.B. Keckler, Box 14193, Harrisburg PA 17104 LONG BEACH GUTS-ETTE, Box 2730, Long Beach CA 90801 LONG NEWS, Barbara Henning, Box 150-455, Brooklyn NY 11215 LOST AND FOUND TIMES, John M. Bennett, 137 Leland Ave, Columbus OH 43214 LOWER LIMIT SPEECH, A.L. Nielsen, 1743 Butler Ave #2, L.A. CA 90025 LYRIC&, Avery Burns, Box 640531, San Francisco CA 94164 MA!, David Kirschenbaum, Box 221, Oceanside NY 11572 MALCONTENT, Laura Poll, Box 703, Naversink NJ 07752 MALLIFE, Mike Miskowski, Box 17686, Phoenix AZ 85011, MEAT EPOCH, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, 3055 Decatur Ave Apt 2-D, Bronx NY 104 67 K MIRAGE #4/PERIOD(ICAL), Kevin Killian & Dodie Bellamy, 1020 Minna St, San Francisco CA 94103 NEW AMERICAN WRITING, Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover, 2920 West Pratt, Chicago IL 60645 NORTH AMERICAN IDEOPHONICS, Mark Nowak, Box 13561 Minneapolis MN 55414 O.ARS. Don Wellman, 21 Rockland Rd., Weare NH 03281 OBJECT, Robert Fitterman & Kim Rosenfeld, 229 Hudson St #4, NY NY 10013 OBLEK, Connell McGrath, Box 1242, Stockbridge MA 01262 OPEN 24 HOURS, Buck Downs, Box 50376, Washington D.C. 20091 O!!ZONE, Harry Burrus, 1266 Fountain View Dr. Houston TX 77057 PAPER RADIO, Neil Kvern, Box 4646, Seattle WA 98104 PARADOX, Dan Bodah, Box 643, Saranac Lake NY 12983 PAVEMENT SAW, David Baratier, 7 James St., Scotia NY 12302 POETIC BRIEFS, Jefferson Hansen & Elizabeth Burns, 31 Parkwood St #3, Albany NY 12208 POETRY USA, Jack Foley, 2569 Maxwell Ave, Oakland CA PRIVATE ARTS, D. R. Heniger, 600 S. Dearborn #2209, Chicago IL 60605 PROSODIA, New College of California, 766 Valencia San Francisco CA 94110 RE*MAP, Carolyn Kemp & Todd Baron, 8270 Willoughby Ave, Los Angeles CA 90046 RIBOT, Paul Vangelesti, Box 65798, Los Angeles CA 90065 ROOMS, 652 Woodland Ave., San Leandro CA 94577 SHATTERED WIG REVIEW, Rupert Wondolowski, 2407 N. Maryland #1, Baltimore MD 21218 SITUATION, Mark Wallace, 10402 Ewell Ave, Kensington MD 20895 6IX, 914 Leisz's Bridge Rd, Reading PA 19119 SPLIT CITY, Jim Lang, Box 110171, Cleveland OH 44111 SUBTLE JOURNAL OF RAW COINAGE, Geof Huth, 875 Central Pkwy, Niskayuna, NY 12309 SULFUR, Clayton Eshleman, English Dept, Eastern Michigan U., Ypsilanti MI 48197 SYN/AES/THE/TIC, Alex Cigale, 178-10 Wexford Terrace Apt 3D, Jamaica NY 11432 TALISMAN, Ed Foster, Box 1117, Hoboken NJ 07030 TAPROOT REVIEWS, Luigi Bob Drake, Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107 TENSETENDONED, M.B. Corbett, Box 155, Preston Park PA 18455 TEXTURE, Susan Smith Nash, 3760 Cedar Ridge Drive, Norman OK 73072 TIGHT, Ann Erickson, Box 1591, Guerneville CA 95446 TIN WREATH, David Gonsalves, P.O. Box 13491, Albany NY 12212 TO, Seth Frechie & Andrew Mossin, Box 121, Narberth PA 19072 TORQUE, Liz Fodaski, Box 118, Canal City Station, N.Y. NY 10013 TRANSMOG, Ficus Strangulensis, Route 6 Box 138, Charleston WV 25311 TRIAGE, Box 1166, Sterling Heights MI 48311 TRIANGLE SHIRTWAIST FIRE, Philip Good, 675A West Mombasha Rd, Monroe NY 10950 TURBULENCE, David Nemeth, Box 40, Hockessin DE 19707 TYUONYI, Phillip Foss, Box 23266, Santa Fe NM 87502 VIZ, 117 Front St., Hattiesburg MS 39401 UMBRELLA, Judith Hoffberg, Box 40100, Pasadena CA 91114 VOLT, Gillian Conoley, 4104 - 24th St #355, San Francisco CA 94114 VORTEXT, Ezra Mark, Box 23194, Seattle WA 98102 THE WASHINGTON REVIEW, Joe Ross, Box 50132, Washington D.C. 20091 WHITEWALL OF SOUND, Jim Clinefelter, 1320 W. 116th #9, Cleveland OH 44102 WITZ, Christopher Reiner, 10604 Whipple St, Toluca Lake CA 91602 W'ORCS/ALOUD ALLOWED, Ralph LaCharity, Box 27309, Cincinnati OH 45227 THE WORLD, Lewis Warsh, Poetry Project at St Mark's, 10th St & 2nd Ave, NY NY 10003 WORLD LETTER, Jon Cone, 2726 E. Court, Iowa City IA 52245 WRAY, V. Marek & J. Welch, Box 91502, Cleveland OH 44101 XIB, Tolek, Box 26112, San Diego CA 92126 X-RAY MAGAZINE, Johnny Brewton, Box 170011, San Francisco CA 94117 YEFIEF, Ann Racuya-Robbins, Box 8505, Santa Fe NM 87504 ZYX, Arnold Skemer, 58-09 205th St, Bayside NY 11364 ___CANADIAN MAGAZINES___ BRITISH COLUMBIA MONTHLY, Gerry Gilbert, Box 48884, Station Bent., Vancouver, B. C. V7X 1A8 CABARET VERT, Beth Learn, Box 157 Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2S7 COLLECTIF REPARATION DE POESIE, Jean-Claude Gagnon, 359 rue Lavigueur # 1, Quebe c, Quebec G1R 1B3 CRASH, Maggie Helwig, Box 562, Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2T1 ESPACE GLOBAL, Alain-Arthur Painchaud, 755 Est Avenue Mont-Royal, Montreal, Queb ec H2J 1W8 HOLE, Louis Cabri, 123 Irving Ave., Ottawa, Ontario K1Y 1Z3 INDUSTRIAL SABOTAGE, 1CENT, SPUDBURN, J.W. Curry, 1357 Landsdowne Rd, Toronto, Ontario M6H 3Z9 JONES AV, 88 Dagmar Av, Toronto, Ontario M4M 1W1 OVERSION, John Barlow, 1069 Bathurst St (3rd Floor) Toronto Ontario M5R 3G8 PARAGRAPH, Beverly Daurio, 137 Birmingham St, Stratford, Ontario N5A 2T1 POETRY THREAT, Clint Burnham, 1-269 Augusta Ave, Toronto Ontario M5T 2M1 PUSH MACHINERY, Daniel Bradley, 30 Gloucester St #1005, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 1L6 RADDLE MOON, Susan Clark, 2239 Stephens St, Vancouver B.C. V6K 3W5 SIN OVER TAN, Box 153 Station P, Toronto, Ontario M5S 2S7 STAINED PAPER ARCHIVE, Gustave Morin, 1792 Byng Road, Windsor, Ontario N8W 3C8 TONGUE TIDE, Tom Snyders, 201-1067 Granville St, Vancouver, B.C. V6Z 1L4 WHO TORCHED RANCHO DIABLO,MONDO HUNKAMOOGA, Stuart Ross, Box 141, Station F, Tor onto, Ontario M4Y 2L4 ZAG, Steve Banks, 69R Nassau St, Toronto, Ontario M5T 1M6 ___U.K. MAGAZINES___ ACTIVE IN AIRTIME, Ralph Hawkins, 53 East Hill, Colchester, Essex CO1 3QY AND, Bob Cobbing, 89A Petherton Rd, London N5 2QT ANGEL EXHAUST, Andrew Duncan, 2 Lovelace Gardens, Southend-on-Sea SS2 4NU EONTA, 27 Alexandra Rd, Wimbledon, London SW19 7IJ FIRE, Chris Ozzard, 3 Holywell Mews, Hollywell, Malvern, Worcs WR14 1LF FIRST OFFENSE, Tim Fletcher, Syringa, The Street, Stodmarsh, Canterbury, Kent CT 3 4BA FRAGMENTE, Anthony Mellors, Flat 11 Landsdown House, Wilmslow Rd, Didsbury Villa ge, Manchester M20 6OJ GRILLE, Simon Smith, 53 Ormonde Court, Upper Richmond Rd., Putney London SW15 5T P INTERFERENCE, Michael Gardner, Wadham College, Parks Rd, Oxford OX1 3PN INTIMACY, Adam McKeown, 4 Bower St, Maidstone, Kent ME16 8SD OASIS, Ian Robinson, 12 Stevenage Rd., London SW6 6ES OBJECT PERMANENCE, Peter Manson & Robert Purves, Flat 3/2 16 Ancroft St, Glasgow , Scotland 7HU G20 OSTINATO, Box 522, London N8 7SZ PAGES, Robert Sheppard, 239 Lessingham Ave, London SW17 8NQ PARATAXIS, Drew Milne, School of English Studies, Arts Building, Univ of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9NQ PURGE, Robert Hampson, 88 Ashburnham Rd, London NW10 5SE RAMRAID EXTRAORDINAIRE, Kerry Sowerby, 2 Midland Rd., Hyde Park, Leeds LS6 1BQ RESPONSES, Periera & Rollinson, Minister College, Minister Rd, Isle of Sheppey, Kent ME12 3JQ RWC, Lawrence Upton, 16 Southview Ave, Caversham, Reading RG4 0AD SHEARSMAN, Tony Frazer, c/o Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank, Macau Mgt Office, Box 476 , Macua SPANNER, Allen Fisher, 14 Hopton Road, Hereford HR1 1BE STRIDE, Rupert Loydell, 11 Sylvan Rd, Exeter, Devon EX4 6EX TALUS, Marzia Balzani & Shamoon Zamir, Dept of English, King's College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS TERRIBLE WORK, Tim Allen, 21 Overton Gardens, Mannamead, Plymouth PL3 5BX 3 X 4, John Mingay, 2 Henderson St, Kingseat by Dunfermline, Fife, Scotland KY12 0TP WORDS WORTH, Richard Tabor, Alaric Sumner, 1 Dairy Cottage, Crompton Rd. South C adbury, Yeovil, Somerset BA22 7E7 ___CONTINENTAL EUROPE AND ELSEWHERE___ ABSURDISTISCHE, Rainer Golchert, Soderstrasse 29, 64283 Darmstadt Germany ACTION POETIQUE, Henri Deluy, 113 rue Anatole France, 92300 Levallois-Perret, Fr ance ALIRE, 57 allee des Coquelicots, 59650 Villeneuve-d'Ascq, France ARNYEKYOTOK, Szasz Janos, Timdr u 17 fsz 3, H- Budapest III, Hungary AU/ART UNIDENTIFIED, 1-1-10-301 Koshienguchi, Nishinomiya, Hyogo, 663 Japan BLAST, Box 3514, Manuka, ACT 2603, Australia BRIO CELL, J. Lehmus, Stenbocksv. 24, 02860 Esbo, Finland CARPETAS EL PARAISO, Jose Luis Campal, Apt N. 6, 33980 Pola de Lavinia, Asturias, Spain CELACANTO, Marcelo Casarin, Quisquisacate 125, 5000 Cordoba, Argentina COMMUNICARTE, Hugo Pontes, Caixa Postal 922, 37701-970 Pocos de Caldas, Brazil DANS UN MONDE ABANDONNE DES FACTEURS, Mathieu Benezet, 3bis rue Jean Sicard, 750 15 Paris, France DAS FROLICHE WOHNZIMMER, Fritz Widhalm, Fuhrmanngasse 1A/7, 1080 Wien Austria DIMENSAO, Guido Biharinho, Caixa Postal 140, Uberaba 38001, Brazil DOC(K)S, Phillipe Castellin, 20 Rue Bonaparte, Ajaccio, France 2000 DOUBLE, Rea Nikonova, Sverdlova 175, Eysk 353660, Russia EX-SYMPOSIUM, 8200 Veszprem, Anyos u. 1-3 Hungary FIG., Jean Davie, 3bi rue Fessart, 75019 Paris, France FREIE ZEIT ART, Postfach 82, A-1195 Vienna, Austria GOING DOWN SWINGING, Box 64, Coburg, Victoria 3058, Australia GRAFFITI, Horacio Versi, Colonia 815, of. 105, Montevideo, Uruguay IF, Jean-Jacques Viton, 12 Place Castellane, 13006 Marseille, France KARTA, Bartek Nowak, Spoldzielcza 3/39, 42 300 Myszkow, Poland LAZA LAPOK, Gabor Toth, 1038 Budapest, Korhaz u. 7. Hungary JALOUSE PRATIQUE, Herve Bauer & Jean-Marc Scanreigh, 80 rue Henon, 69004 Lyon, France LE CAHIER DU REFUGE, Center International de Poesie Marseille, Couvent du Refuge, 1 rue des Honneurs, 13002 Marseille, France MAGYAR MUHELY, Tibor Papp, 40 Rue Pascal, 75013 Paris France MANDORLA, Roberto Tejada, Apartado postal 5-366, Mexico D.F., Mexico 06500 MANI ART, Pascal Lenoir, 11 Ruelle De Champagne, 60680 Grandfresnoy, France MINIATURE OBSCURE, Gerhild Ebel, Cornelia Ahnert, Landrain 143, 06118 Halle/Saale, Germany MITO, via G. Bruno 37, 80035 Nola, Italy MOHS, Kate McMeekin, 8 rue Chaptal, 44100 Nantes France MONDRAGON, Nel Amaro, S. Francisco F-32, 3-A, 33610 Turon, Asturias, Spain NIOQUES, Jean-Marie Gleize, 4 rue de Cromer, 26400 Crest, France NON (+) ULTRA, Matthias Schamp, Grosse-Weischede-Strasse 1, 44803 Bochum, Germany OFFERTA SPECIALE, Carla Bertola, Corso De Nicola 20, 10128 Torino, Italy OLHO LATINO, Paulo Cheida Sans, Rua Padre Bernardo da Silva 856, 13030 Campinas, SP, Brazil OTIS RUSH, Ken Bolton, P.O. Box 21, North Adelaide, South Australia 5006 PIEDRA LUNAR, Corpa, Urb. Los Cantos, 38, Bargas, Toledo, Spain PINTALO DE VERDE, Antonio Gomez, APDO 186, 06800 Merida, Badajoz, Spain PIPS DADA CORPORATION, Claudio Puetz, Beethovenstr. 40, 53115 Bonn, Germany PLURAL, Paseo de la Reforma 18.1 piso, Deleg. Cuauhtemoc, DF 06600, Mexico P.O. Box (Merz Mail), Pere Sousa, apdo 9326, 08080 Barcelona Spain POESIE, Micel Deguy, 8 rue Ferou, 75278 Paris Cedex 06, France POEZINE, Rua Seride 486, apt 1106, CEP 59020 Natal RN, Brazil POSTFLUXPOSTBOOKLET, Luce Fierens, Boterstraat 43, B-2811, Hombeek, Belgium PRAKALPANA LITERATURE, KOBISENA, P-40 Nandana Park, Calcutta 700034, West Bengal, India SCARP, Ron Pretty, Univ of Wollongong, Box 1144, Wollongong, NSW 2500, Australia SHISHI, Shoji Yoshizawa, 166 Suginami-ku koenjikita, 3-31-5 Tokyo, Japan SIVULLINEN, Jouni Vaarakangas, Kaarelantie 86 B 28, 00420 Helsinki, Finland SOUTERRAINS & LOLA FISH, Bruno Pommey, 10 Residence Jean Mace, 28300 Mainvilliers, France SPINNE, Dirk Frohlich, Priessnitzstrasse 19, 01099 Dresden, Germany SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand SUB BILD, Willem van Dijk, Untere Badstrasse 32, 69412 Eberbach, Germany TABOO JADOO, Javant Biaruja, GPO Box 994/H, Melbourne, Victoria 3001 Australia TARTINE, Catherine Lorin & Regis Tillet, 1 rue Ferdinand Duval, 75004 Paris, France TERAZ MOWIE, Hartmut Andryczuk, postlagernd, 12154 Berlin, Germany UNI/VERS(;), Guillermo Deisler, Kirchnerstrabe 11, 06112 Halle (Saale), Germany YE, Theo Breuer, Neustrasse 2, 53925 Sistig/Eifel, Germany ZOOM-ZOUM, Josee Lapeyrere, 4 rue des Carmes, 75005 Paris, France ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [Note: Charles B. has asked me to send my magazine list to all participants here. I am happy to oblige, as free circulation of info is what this is all about. I am interested in feedback (especially updates for the list) but please don't ask me to engage in arguments or discussion about the term "experimental." I've used it for want of something better, not because I feel committed to it as a meaningful or accurate label.] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Dec 1994 16:31:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jorge Guitart Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: school prayer I recommend "Dear Procne: your wretched sister--she it weaves this robe. Regard it well: it hides her painful tale in its pointless patterns. Tereus came and fetched her off; he conveyed her to Thrace . . . but not to see her sister. He dragged her deep into the forest, where he shackled her and raped her. Her tongue he then severed, and concealed her, and she warbles for vengeance, and death." John Barth, ***Lost in the Funhouse***, New York: Bantam Books, 1969, p. 111. (The above is one of six pieces in the section "Glossolalia" . Of those six pieces says Barth in the foreword (page xi, op cit) "Among their common attributes are 1) that their audiences don't understand what they are talking about, and 2) that their several speeches are metrically identical, each corresp verbal sound-pattern identifiable by anyone who attended American public schools prior to the decision of the U.S. Supreme Court in the case of [ITALIC] Murray v. Baltimore School Board [END Italic] in 1963." ) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 15:01:18 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: ASSORTED Chris, do you churn out yr poetry or theory. The well-churned urn pours out peotry & thoery mainly. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 15:06:21 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns Hi James, How clean is a weather forecast, when it always reproduces the power structure by naming that structure's version of geographical features....? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 15:18:16 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Experiments Dear John, You sound, you know, like one who has not yet discovered the pleasures of reading Cage or Mac Low. As if to say, this is for the FUTURE. The future you are here looking at is called 1958 or thereabouts. It's not new and its "techniques", by which I suppose you mean, following sets of predetermined instructions (or self-instructions) for text-manipulations, (even including dice-throwing in the instructions!!! tut! tut!....) produce results which are of no interest whatever until shown to someone else, or read aloud in a public place. Or sung or used as if it were instrumental cha-cha-cha music.... At that precise moment, there is a relation between poet reading and "Audience" that is a pleasure to engage with. /for one thing it pulls the rug from under A NUMBER OF OTHER VERY HIGH-MINDED proposals. And a Merry Christmas to you and yours Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 14:35:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Electronic Poetry Center Call for Essays / Papers --------------------------- Electronic Poetry Center --------------------------- Call for Papers / Essays --------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------- The ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER is interested in receiving papers, essays on poetics, specific postmodern poets, or movements, etc. The EPC contains an author library where we would consider placing these papers. How would this work? Papers will bear a copyright statement in your name. The idea is to make information available to readers who are interested in these topics, and allow them an accessible source to receive them. For papers on specific authors, a subject library will also be created. Our idea is that papers presented at conferences, for example, often contain timely information that might be shared. Regardless of whether these papers are being revised or otherwise prepared for print publication, you might wish to submit them for placement into the EPC Library for others to read, view, even comment on if you wish. Another possiblity here might be your own essays that you use for classroom use (and which you own the copyright to). Students may receive them from the Center at no cost and from any telephone outlet they may choose. Placement of papers on the EPC would not in any way preclude their publication in print, in a collection of essays, etc. Our idea is to allow them to circulate while the ideas are fresh. There has been quite a bit of traffic in the Electronic Poetry Center. This is a way of helping your material to circulate and also of providing interesting material for our visitors. If you are interested in submitting work to this project, send them in the body of an e-mail message to Loss Glazier, lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu We are most interested in hearing from you! Loss Glazier for Loss Glazier and Kenneth Sherwood in collaboration with Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 14:50:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER In-Reply-To: <199412131532.KAA05746@terminus-est.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Mark Wallace" at Dec 13, 94 09:44:08 am Interestingly, reading while for an appointment, Newt Gingrich is listed in _People Weekly_ (an indication of celebrity status!) where his e-mail address is listed as ga06*@hr.house.gov (Though I've never seen addresses with an * in them before.) Just thought this would be of interest... Has anyone tried this address? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 15:20:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: NEA ??? X-To: Robert Drake In-Reply-To: <199412171037.AA03131@mail.crl.com> Just a note to clear up a misconception that could arise from Luigi-Bob's post. Neither AVEC nor Syntax Projects for the Arts has ever received a grant from the NEA. Every year, we apply. Every year, we're turned down. We have received grants from the California Arts Council, the Fund for Poetry, the Mellon Foundation (for 'organizational development') the Coordinating Council of Literary Magazines and Presses, and several smaller foundations. But most of the annual income comes from members of Syntax Projects for the Arts--people who contribute at least $25 a year (and often more). (Information on Syntax Projects and membership is included at the end of this post.) The reason given by the NEA is that the work in AVEC is of 'uneven' artistic merit. I'm not sure what 'even' artistic content would be... On the record, I would like to say how much I really love the NEA and the great work they do. ----------------- SYNTAX PROJECTS FOR THE ARTS Syntax Projects for the Arts is a non-profit 501(c)(3), member-supported organization dedicated to the promotion of literature for the public benefit. Our focus is on formally innovative writing. AVEC MAGAZINE Since 1989, Syntax has published _Avec_, a journal of poetry, prose and translations. _Avec_'s interest is international, and we have published writing and art from the United States, Canada, Lebanon, England, France, Germany, Eastern Europe, and Russia. AVEC BOOKS In 1993, Syntax started Avec Books with the publication of Peter Gizzi's _Periplum_. A second book, David Bromige's _A Cast of Tens_ was published in the spring of 1994. Last month, Avec Books published _Blue Vitriol_, the first English language collection by the Russian poet Aleksei Parshchikov, translated by Michael Palmer, John High, Michael Molnar and others, with an introduction by Marjorie Perloff. WITZ Members of Syntax Projects for the Arts also receive _Witz_, a journal of critical writing. MEMBERSHIPS Syntax has received grants from the California Arts Council, the Council of Literary Magazines and Presses, and the Andrew Mellon Foundation. But it is primarily supported by individual members. Annual membership rates are $25 (member), $50 (supporting), $100 (sustaining), $200 (patron), $500 (angel). Members receive two issue of Avec, three issues of Witz, and a 25% discount on Avec Books. Avec is also available by subscription ($12 / 2 issues). Memberships and correspondence to Syntax Projects for the Arts should be sent to: Syntax Projects for the Arts P.O. Box 1059 Penngrove, California 94951 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 20:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: Univeral Blisters/Individual Burns In-Reply-To: <199412190216.AA08117@panix.com> The joke about the weather forecast is that it has been made quite clear by meteorology itself that the farther away from the moment of the initial conditions the less chance the forecast has of being correct. For me the interesting issue is the separation of information from meaning that arises from such methods as forecasting. Clearly the news is faulty by virtue of the selection process and doubly so when you consider the point of view. My note about the weather being news is that its at least no more than it pretends to be, a guess. But how long would you stay in your job if you were wrong as often as the weatherman. As we deal with more and more complexities, the more we have to settle for simultaneous answers. On Mon, 19 Dec 1994, Tony Green wrote: > Hi James, How clean is a weather forecast, when it always > reproduces the power structure by naming that structure's version of > geographical features....? > > Tony Green, > e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz > post: Dept of Art History, > University of Auckland, > Private Bag 92019, > Auckland, New Zealand > Fax: 64 9-373 7014 > Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 20:21:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER In-Reply-To: <199412191952.AA09381@panix.com> An interesting political gesture would be to automate the sending of the message "Foetus" to Newt's e-mail address, so that he would receive thousands of messages a day. Then see if he wants to save the message. On Mon, 19 Dec 1994, Loss Glazier wrote: > Interestingly, reading while for an appointment, Newt Gingrich is > listed in _People Weekly_ (an indication of celebrity status!) > where his e-mail address is listed as > > ga06*@hr.house.gov > > (Though I've never seen addresses with an * in them before.) Just > thought this would be of interest... Has anyone tried this address? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 20:36:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Howard Shoemaker Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER In-Reply-To: <199412200126.UAA249437@fermi.clas.Virginia.EDU> from "James Sherry" at Dec 19, 94 08:21:42 pm For all "bomb-throwers": latest issue of Wired lists Newt's address as georgia6@hr.house.gov steve shoemaker ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 00:06:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Segue URL Loss, Did you change the EPC directory at all in the last month. The Hotlist item for the Segue URL that worked previously was: gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/journals/l ist/Segue/Segue_Newsletter and now it appears the last two or three branches have been changed. Is this me!!??: gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/journals/s elected/Segue Pat Phillips Patrick_Phillips@brown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 00:19:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Segue URL In-Reply-To: <199412200514.AAA20690@terminus-est.acsu.buffalo.edu> from "Patrick Phillips" at Dec 20, 94 00:06:21 am Pat, There has been some switching over of the system (as we've discussed) and are now just sorting out the few snags that remain. Does this change cause a difficulty for you? It is easy enough if you'd prefer to reset it to how it was before. There was only some confusion as to other menus. Let me know; I can get in there and change within 24 hours (or immediately) if this is your strong preference. I await word from you. Sending you best wishes, Loss > Did you change the EPC directory at all in the last month. > > The Hotlist item for the Segue URL that worked previously was: > > gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/journals/l > ist/Segue/Segue_Newsletter > > and now it appears the last two or three branches have been changed. Is > this me!!??: > > gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/journals/s > elected/Segue > > Pat Phillips > > Patrick_Phillips@brown.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 00:29:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Phillips Subject: Second post of the Segue URL messagye I thought that since I shared my previous post will all of you, you may as well know its meaning. The Segue Newsletter, as you know has been posted for some time on the Electronic Poetry Center at Buffalo - a fine service to us all I may add. Up until a certain point I was able to access this Hypertext newsletter via an address on the EPC computer. This address or Uniform Resource Locator (URL) was : gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/journals/l ist/Segue/Segue_Newsletter The current and correct one is: gopher://writing.upenn.edu/hh/internet/library/e-journals/ub/rift/journals/s elected/Segue/Segue_Newsletter What this means is that anyone who wishes to reach the Segue online Newsletter may do so by imputting this string address (or URL) either via gopher or by using a WWW browser such as Mosaic. I apologize for any confusion that I may have caused anyone. Patrick Phillips Pat Phillips Patrick_Phillips@brown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 18:37:01 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: w.curnow@AUCKLAND.AC.NZ Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER X-To: lolpoet@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Hey Loss, Who's this Newt Gingrich e'rybodies talkin' bout? Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 16:52:21 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: AMERICA: A PRAYER >Hey Loss, > Who's this Newt Gingrich e'rybodies talkin' bout? > Wystan I don't think his fame has crossed the Pacific. Mark Roberts SIS Liaison Officer Student Information & Systems Office Ph 02 385 3631 University of NSW Sydney Australia Fax 02 662 4835 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 06:13:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Who's Newt? >> Who's this Newt Gingrich e'rybodies talkin' bout? >> Wystan > > >I don't think his fame has crossed the Pacific. To our foreign friends, Newt Gingrich is the next Speaker of the House, the first Republican (capital R) to hold the post in 40 years.A onetime college professor (history I think), he represents Cobb County, Georgia, the northern suburbs of Atlanta. Atlanta's one of the few truly cosmopolitan cities in the South (New Orleans and Houston are the others) and has had African American political leadership for some 15 or so years. Cobb County is where the "white flight" there flew and Newt is its political expression. He made his rep in Congress as a brash anti-liberal practitioner of guerrilla electoral politics. The "bomb thrower" reference speaks to his general style (the American cartoon Doonesbury depicts him as a bomb, actually the "system bomb" icon from the Macintosh GUI). He recently declared that one "senior law enforcement official" told him that one fourth of the Clinton administation's senior officials had drug problems. That sort of thing. Prior to the most recent general election, Newt announced a Republican "Contract with America," a series of items they hope to get through Congress in the first 100 days of 1995. Mostly a rehash of Reagan-era ideas (prayer in the schools, a balanced budget amendment, term limits for congress, more money for the military). Many people here expect Newt to actively seek to end the funding for the NEA and the NEH. My guess is that he has the votes to do it. Or at least to turn the $$ back to the states, a good number of which would then kill it at that level. But Newt is a bit of a wirehead, a personal pal of Alvin Toffler's. He's promised to get all of Congress up on email and the internet. Sort of the right wing's answer to Al Gore. (What is the left wing answer to Al Gore?) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 21:21:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Name witheld at the request of the owner Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: How to unsub or sub to Poetics X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET The following announcement is sent in the interests of increasing automation of this list and is sent for the benefit of those who did not save the subscription announcement automatically sent you when you initially subscribed to Poetics despite the fact that this announcemnet encouraged you to save it as you would have need for it at a later time or then again this announcment is for those of you who did not understand all the details in the message automaticaly sent to you by the listserve program. "I" would like to apologise for the paragraph above. Poetics has open subscriptions. You can subscribe or unsubscribe from the list by sending the standard message direct to Listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu The standard form for this is a one-line message with no subject line (personally I don't think it matters what you put in the subject line since the point seems to be that the machine doesn't read the subject line, but, as usual, I could be wrong): sub poetics Jane Jabberwocky [or] unsub poetics John Jaded [where Jane Jabberwocky or John Jaded are your own name] "I" am automatically notified by the listserve of any subscription activity (just as "I" get copies of all bounced posts). If you want to have someone else join the list, the easiest thing is to have them subscribe themselves *and* send a message to me saying who mentioned the list to them. I will then send back, manually, the "welcome" message that includes information on EPC, R/IFT, and the archives. (If you ever want a copy of this message, just let me know.) TEN FOUR ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 14:17:58 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Coppertales: A Journal of Rural Arts X-To: AUSTLIT@banks.ntu.edu.au ******************************************************************************** AUSTRALIAN WRITING ONLINE is a small press distribution service which we hope will help Australian magazines, journals and publishers to reach a much wider audience through the internet. As a first step we will be posting information and subscription details for a number of magazines and publishers to a number of discussion groups and lists. We hope to build up a large emailing list which includes as many libraries as possible. If you know of a list or discussion group which you think might be worthwhile posting to please email,or if you would like to receive future postings please contact AWOL directly on M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au. Please note that M.Roberts@unsw.edu.au is a temporary address until we set up our own address sometime next year ******************************************************************************** Coppertales: A Journal of Rural Arts 'Coppertales' is a journal of 180 pages edited by Brian Musgrove and Chris Lee and currently published in the form of an annual anthology by the Faculty of Arts at the University of Southern Queensland and the University of Southern Queensland Press. In 1995 it has been supported by the Queensland Government through the Minister for the Arts. 'Coppertales' publishes poetry, short fiction, articles, art work, reviews and interviews which feature the rural experience. Its aim is to provide a space for the representation and promotion of Queensland and Australian rural culture. Too often rural Australia is misrepresented as a simple and outdated cliche by interests confined to the metropolitan center. This journal establishes a forum for the diversity of interests and opinion which are characteristic of this country's regional cultures. 'Coppertales' is not exclusively committed to regional items. It recognises that rural people are just as interested in the ideas and values of metropolitan and international cultures as they in those of their own localities. 'Coppertales' will publish metropolitan work of quality which may be of interest to a rural audience. The inaugural issue of the journal features poetry from Bruce Dawe, Coral Hull, Megan Redfern, and Mark Mahemoff, short fiction from Ness Shannon, Ian Crowther and H. Hayes, a travel essay from Pat Buckridge, and an interview with Thomas Keneally. Contributors receive a complimentary copy of the journal and all contributions are refereed through an editorial advisory board. Subscriptions are Aust$12 (Aust$20 for institutions) overseas subscriptions $Aus20 per annum and are available from the Department of Humanities, Faculty of Arts, University of Southern Queensland, Toowoomba 4350. Cheque, Money Order, Bankcard, Visacard and Mastercard are all accepted. print this message and cut here -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUBSCRIPTION FORM Name: _____________________________________________________ Address: ____________________________________________________ _______________________________________________________ Please indicate the rate appropriate to your subscription (all dollars are Australian dollars) Individual __ $12 (AUS) within Australia __ $20 (AUS) Institutions __ $20 (AUS) Overseas Please send this form, with your payment to: Coppertales, Department of Humanities, Faculty of Arts, University of Southern Queensland, Toowoomba 4350 Coppertales is supported by the Queensland Government through the Minister for the Arts. Mark Roberts SIS Liaison Officer Student Information & Systems Office Ph 02 385 3631 University of NSW Sydney Australia Fax 02 662 4835 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 06:07:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Great Poet The new issue of Conjunctions (#23: "New World Writing") arrived yesterday, a total translation issue, and in it is a poet whose work simply takes my breath away: ARAKI YASUSADA. According to Brad Morrow's intro to the issue, it's Yasusada's first publication in English translation. Here's one poem (picked for its brevity): TELESCOPE WITH URN The image of the galaxies spreads out like a cloud of sperm. Expanding said the observatory guide, and at such and such velocity. It is like the idea of the flowers, opening within the idea of the flowers. I like to think of that, said the monk, arranging them with his papery fingers. Tiny were you, and squatted over a sky-colored bowl to make water. What a big girl! cried we, tossing you in the general direction of the stars. Intently, then, in the dream, I folded up the great telescope on Mount Horai. In the form of this crane, it is small enough for the urn. (translated by Tosa Motokiyu, Ojiu Norinaga and Okura Kyojin) Yasusada (1907-72) was a Hiroshima postal clerk most of his life and, while active in Japanese avant-garde circles, basically remained unknown. His wife and eldest daughter died instantly in the atomic bomb blast in 1945. A second daughter died of radiation sickness three years later. His manuscripts were brought to light when they were discovered by his surviving son (who was out of town with relatives that fateful day in '45). Apparently his major influences were Roland Barthes and Jack Spicer (!) and the selection in CONJUNCTIONS includes "Sentences for Jack Spicer Renga" (collaboratively written with Akutagawa Fusei). At the time of his death he was at work on a series of letters and translations to have been called After Spicer. There's an elevation of tone in these poems that reminds me more of Michael Palmer than Spicer, perhaps because the translators are all Hiroshima poets (one of whom seems to spend half of each year in Sebastapol, although I don't know if he's known to Bromige or to Cydney Chadwick). These works kept me up last night and probably will again for another night or three. I recommend them highly. Also in the issue are works by Bei Dao, Nina Iskrenko, Eduardo Galeano, Anne-Marie Albiach (collab. w/ Charles Bernstein!), Pascale Monnier (trans. by Ashbery) and much more. You can get a copy by sending $10 US to Conjunctions, Bard College, Anondale-on-Hudson, NY 12504. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 15:36:18 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Re: Experiments Tony Green wrote: > You sound, you know, like one who has not yet discovered the >pleasures of reading Cage or Mac Low. As if to say, this is for the >FUTURE. > I have taken my literary pleasure of both authors although I've never heard them in performance. I've already acknowledged the fact that the principles and practices of aleatory and algorithmic works are not new. Anyway enough parrying _ad hominems_ (too many of these in listserv discussions don't you think?). The point is that the general availablility of tools -- hardware and software -- to appreciate this work fully, and so to develop it in a way that involves the responses of active readers, is only just with us. What _is_ new? - A new kind of _literary_ experience. The experience of such work has typically been either in performance (there's a lot to that I know), or in the reading of a single edited and/or printed 'snapshot' of text resulting from the application of a process. Such work, when presented as a program-plus-display allows a new kind of literary (usually lone, silent reading) experience of a generated text, _as it is generated_. - The reader is in more in control and is a part of the process. The reader can set the process running again, interrupt it, investigate its workings. With more developed works, the reader 'holds, throws and loads the dice' -- is able to change the weightings of aleatory factors, choose processes to be applied to a text, modify processes, 'teach' the work about new text or responses to texts, finally even perhaps spawn a so-called 'genetic' evolution of processes (as in 'genetic programming'). - The notion of composition is extend to include the composition of the processes and, I would argue, the programs that underlie them in machine-based work. In the UK, I am not aware of anyone developing what I've recently begun to call 'machine modulated poetries' (MaMoPo? :-) Those programs and works which I have so far discovered from US sources are either ungrounded -- willfully or otherwise -- in innovative contemporary writing or are more concerned with the presentation of poetic language using the techniques of non-literary media. (This is one reason why I've stressed the _literary_ nature of experience -- we shouldn't abandon our particular muse simply because our word processors have learned to paint and sing.) I would be anxious to be put in touch with anyone else who is working in this way. ----------- John Cayley Wellsweep Press [in Chinese HZ: ~{?-U\02~} ~{=[i@3v0fIg~}] Tel & Fax: 0171-267 3525 Email: cayley@shadoof.demon.co.uk ----------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 18:23:41 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Experiments John Cayley writes: >In the UK, I am not aware of anyone developing what I've recently begun to call >'machine modulated poetries' (MaMoPo? :-) >Those programs and works which I have so far discovered from US sources are >either ungrounded -- willfully or otherwise -- in innovative contemporary >writing or are more concerned with the presentation of poetic language using th >techniques of non-literary media. (This is one reason why I've stressed the >_literary_ nature of experience -- we shouldn't abandon our particular muse >simply because our word processors have learned to paint and sing.) >I would be anxious to be put in touch with anyone else who is working in this >way. i have been reading around in several hypertexts distributed by Eastgate Systems (134 Main St., Watertown MA, 02172, USA), in both StorySpace (their cross-platorm hypertext environment) and HyperCard. the "quality" is varied--or praps i'll say "some of these has been of more use to me than others"-- or praps i'll try to recast the "experimental" arguement: i'd rather call these hypertexts "experimental apparatuses" which i, as "reader", use to conduct "experiments". some of these experimental setups enable me to produce "useful reading experiences"--& sometimes, those that i fail to "successfuly" utilize provide insight into why they have "failed", and thus how another setup might "succeed". at anyrate... Mary-Kim Arnold's "Lust", and Jane Yellowlees Douglas' "I hHave Said Nothing" (both from Eastgate Quarterly review of Hypertext, vol. 1 #2), have given me some useful reading experi- ences. i'm looking forward to seeing how folks might put the WWW environment to simlar use... & yeah praps someone will try to apply my recasting of this "arguement" to non-hypertextual poetry, and either find it useful or no... i'd be interested to hear of the results of such an test... asever luigi TRR/Burning Press ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 20:19:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: BMCH@WVNVM.WVNET.EDU Subject: Armand Schwerner I've been eavesdropping on this list for the better part of a year now, much to my edification, without having up until now felt the need to join in on the ongoing discourse(s). Or maybe not having felt it proper to do so? since I don't write poetry myself, only write about it (& if the truth be known, don't so much write about it as aspire to do so). Whatever, I've been quite satisfied to read along passively, treating the list as a superior kind of daily news-feed. But now I need some specific information, & I'm hoping you-all out there might be able to help me out. I've wanted for some time to write something about Armand Schwerner's "The Tablets," & it seems as though this winter I might manage to get to it, but I'm amazed to find that (as far I can make out) essentially nothing has been written about that poem and/or Schwerner. Amazed, because I find "The Tablets" really attractive & unprecedented -- a FUNNY long-poem; funnier (because more serious?) than, say, Koch? something like David Jones with a (Jewish?) sense of humor? Or have I missed some essential publication on Schwerner? Has one of you out there written something about Schwerner and/or "The Tablets" that I've overlooked? Do you know of something worth reading about him/it? I wouldn't mind blazing the trail on this, but I'd sure like to know if anyone's been there ahead of me. I've Rounded Up all the Usual Suspects, e.g., Perloff, but they seem not to have looked Schwerner's way even once. I just learned that Sherman Paul once published some kind of pamphlet on Schwerner which I'll have to track down. But is there anything else I should be looking for? Brian McHale WVU ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 20:17:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: Armand Schwerner In-Reply-To: <01HKZQK9DIQQ8WWKCT@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU> Brian-- I can't answer your query, though I feel like I've heard something just in the last year about someone writing on "The Tablets"--maybe (?) in a job application letter for the opening here at Arizona? I'd be surprised if there wasn't an issue, or 1/2 issue, on Schwerner in VORT back in the late sixties or the seventies. Anyway Jerry Rothenberg would probably know (is he on this list?) or Toby Olson at Temple, or George Economou at Oklahoma. Also there may be some short stuff on the early Tablets back in Caterpillar. good luck, I'll be curious what you find and also about what you make of that strange piece of work. Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 23:19:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Armand Schwerner In-Reply-To: <199412240319.AA03699@panix.com> Why don't you get in touch with Armand himself? He teaches at the CUNY Staten Island Branch. Alan Also, please, if anyone knows anything about Bernadette Mayer's condition, please post here. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 14:08:06 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: schwerner For: Brian McHale in particular. It's curious to see the work of Schwerner come up as so much of a mystery. He is now & has been for many years one of the very singular & original contributors to the opening & freeing up of poetry. Some good writing about his work -- with the TABLETS as central focus -- has certainly appeared (the Sherman Paul piece and a recent one by Ed Sanders are two that I can quickly think of) but, as with too many others, hardly commen- surate with what he's given us. The omission of Schwener & the monumental (and -- you're right -- deeply comic) TABLETS from all three recent anthologies of OUR poetry is bewildering & -- to my mind at least -- dampens some of the real pleasure they have given me. (Pierre Joris and I will try to compensate for that in the big global book we're still compiling [second volume the post-World War II] but there are limits even so ...) If you want to be in touch with Schwerner -- who I would guess keeps track of all these things -- his address is 20 Bay St. Landing, Apt. B3C, Staten Island, NY 10301, tel. (718) 442-3784, fax (718) 448-7935. I know he'll be happy to hear from you. With greetings for the year ahead JEROME ROTHENBERG ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 16:02:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kathryne lindberg Subject: Re: schwerner In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 24 Dec 1994 14:08:06 PST from I realize that this is an abrupt change of pace, but. . . In order to finish a paper on Du Bois and Marx, I need to track down what appears a very odd and fractured allusion in Du Bois. I believe that he is rewriting the "Song of the Bride," as he calls it from Lohengrin, Act III, Scene I, when he has the black John in "The Coming of John," in *Souls* sing "Freudig gefuhrt, ziehet dahin." Sorry I can't do umlauts, and I guess I should somehow apologize for the preciousness of this query. Still, lacking a libretto and out here in Detroit (not your big opera town) on Christmas day, what better source than the poetry net? I tried my Oxford and Harvard Opera Guides, but I think a recording or libretto would answer this real quick. I will eat my recording of *Rienzi* if it ain't from Lohengrin. Thanks for what help or sympathy you might render. Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 17:00:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: dubois Not sure just what the question is, but yes, the German phrase in Chapter 13 of _Souls of Black Folk_ comes from _Lohengrin_, which is pretty clear in context since this is the opera John attends in New York, where he has his improbable meeting with the other John from back home ("white John," son of the judge). When he hears the opera in New York, as Du Bois tells us, "black John" rises "out of the dirt and dust of that low life that held him prisoned and befouled." Soon after, however, the usher asks him to leave his seat; he catches sight of the other John and his life is changed forever. He leaves New York immediately and returns to the small Southern town he'd previously avoided returning to. Here, in a truly Poe-esque manner, Du Bois dramatizes his own concept of "double conciouscness." Indeed, the description of the opera's effect on John recalls (with certain critical differences) Du Bois's own recollection in Chapter I of the freedom he sought from racism while growing up: "Then it dawned upon me with a certain suddenness that I was different from the others; or like, mayhap, in heart and life and longing, but shut out from their world by a vast veil.... I held all beyond it in common contempt, and lived above it in a region of blue sky and great wandering shadows. That sky was bluest when I could beat my mates at examination-time, of beat them at a foot-race, or even beat their stringy heads." Anyway, back to _Lohengrin_: At chapter's end, when John is lynched, he escapes in his mind back North, "humming `Song of the Bride'." The German Du Bois gives, "Freudig gefuehrt, ziehet dahin," means literally "Joyfully led, draw thither." I believe the verb tense for "ziehet dahin" indicates an address to the plural form of thou--something Du Bois would have known (he spent a year in Germany, where he heard Max Weber lecture). The note in the back of my edition of _Souls_ says Du Bois substituted "freudig" (joyfully) for "treulich" (faithfully), but I'm not sure of the significance. More than likely he was quoting from memory. The complexity of Du Bois's address in _Souls_ is such that one wants to think about just who this plural you is to whom John hums as the judge and his lynching party approach. In any case, very curious how Du Bois's "fractured reference" (as you say) to Wagner relates to Du Bois's Marxism. Perhaps you could share some of your thoughts on this. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Dec 1994 22:36:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kathryne lindberg Subject: Re: dubois In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 25 Dec 1994 17:00:41 -0500 from Yes, Du Bois actually spent two years+, long enough to do all the work for his doctorate in sociology. I know that the passage is from Lohengrin, but I couldn't find the passage as such in Lohengrin, and the substitution means something more stunning than bad memory, I'd bet. I am still jamming on this paper, so I can't explain the Marx reference. It'd be the paper, I guess. But I can say that I am about unwinding some of the stunning moments of bubblings up of German philosophy and music in Du Bois's text. His use or abuse of Lohengrin was actually just a footnote or epigraph to his treatment of two letters Karl Marx wrote, one to Abraham Lincoln the other to Andrew Johnson. This is sketchy, I know, but what I wanted in order to pencil in one part of the picture was the exact passage from Lohengrin and why/how he had fractured, as I put it, the "Bride's Song," or "Song of the Bride," as Du Bois thought he had fused the Bridal Chorus and the scene right after the death of Telramund. I am not sure that it matters a whole lot, and this might just be the way I have of warming up to a more straightforward approach to Du Bois's fascinating strategies of historical and genealogical revisionism. He makes Marx the pupil of Frederick Douglass; he manages to lynch (at least in a sort of far fetched way) his German education and his ambivalence to German culture by putting that weird or at least inappropriate and dramatically implausible song in John's throat. These moments, rich in all sorts of ways, fascinate me. I know the DuBois text well; and when I go back to some of his sources, I getthe uncanny sense that he was just as weird a quoter as, say, Pound. Sorry for the length of this message. I'm sure that not everyone gets pulled into or laughs as hard as I do at this sort of stuff. FIN. But I'd still like the first couple of lines--in German--of the aforementioned Wagner tunes. Happy, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 01:28:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carla Billitteri Organization: University at Buffalo Subject: Re: dubois Sounds great--tell us more when you get further along. The opening two lines (but this is all my edition gives) are "Treulich gefuehrt, ziehet dahin / Wo euch der Segen der Liebe bewahr"--"Faithfully led, draw thither / Where over you the blessings of love keep watch." Robert Bernasconi is also working on Du Bois's response to German philosophy, by way of a reading of (I seem to recall) "The Conservation of the Races," but hasn't yet published anything. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Dec 1994 10:48:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Organization: University at Buffalo X-To: poetics@UBVMS.BITNET Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 21:53:23 EST From: Ben Friedlander Subject: announcement for p-list To: BERNSTEI@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII below is the book announcement. slowly slowly slowly catching up with such projects, will finally be ready to do some reading soon. soon. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- announcing a new series of books from Editions Herisson ". . . it erases the borders, slips through the hands, you can barely hear it, but it teaches us the heart. Filiation, token of election confided as legacy, it can attach itself to any word at all, to the thing, living or not, to the name of herisson, for example . . ." --Derrida, "Che cos'e la poesia?" ("What Is Poetry?") "`Are _herisson_--_herissons_ messengers like eagles?' `Like what, Rose-of-the-Alps?' `Are _herissons_, I mean, mixed up like eagles with stories out of Greek books?' Now Doctor Berne Blum was an odd sort of person. Most people laughed when you asked them questions . . . or said, `Little girls shouldn't ask such things' . . . or pretended not to have heard, and talked about something else or just went out and whispered (rather loudly) behind closed doors, `Now what does one tell a child about such matters?' Doctor Berne Blum wasn't like any of these people. He said: `Little Rose-of-the-Alps, that is a most important question.'" --H.D., _The Hedgehog_ now available: _Chaim Soutine_ Bob Perelman * _Three Poets_ Pam Rehm Nick Lawrence Carla Billitteri * forthcoming _The Dream Poems_ Thad Ziolkowski _jetting I commit the immortal spark_ Benjamin Friedlander _notes toward an essay on Frank O'Hara_ * all books are $5.00 postpaid a limited number of signed and lettered copies available at $15.00 make checks payable to the U.B. Foundation Editions Herisson 31 Norwood Ave. #2, Buffalo, NY 14222 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 11:03:05 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Who's Newt? Thanks Wystan for asking and to Ron Silliman for answering so interestingly who is Newt. Saeson's Greetings to all the List. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz post: Dept of Art History, University of Auckland, Private Bag 92019, Auckland, New Zealand Fax: 64 9-373 7014 Telephone: 64 9 373 7599 ext. 8981 or 7276 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Dec 1994 15:10:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Who's Newt? Actually, Tony, I thought of a better, shorter response to the question of who's Newt shortly after my original post: Our Zhirnovsky Do they celebrate Kwanzaa in New Zealand? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 09:51:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: krickjh@MCGRAW-HILL.COM Subject: Re: Armand Schwerner Schwerner collaborated with someone (?) on something called "The Domesday Book" in the early sixties. It was a lexicon of nuclear weaponry - perhaps one of the earliest attempts to wring some humor from the arms race. It's quite an interesting - and still hilarious - work. I have a copy at home, and will send additional details tomorrow. John Krick ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Dec 1994 13:30:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: krickjh@MCGRAW-HILL.COM Subject: Re[2]: Armand Schwerner I dug out my copy of the Schwerner "Domesday Dictionary" last night and found when I called it "hilarious" I gravely misspoke, unless your idea of hilarity runs toward the gallows. In fact the book is horrifying. Not having picked it up in several years, I remembered it being a great deal more comic than it is. It IS, certainly, funny, but not the sort of funny that you can easily laugh at. It is nonetheless an incredibly powerful book. I'd like to know more about the history of this book - both its making and its reception. In any case, the details are: The Domesday Dictionary, Being An Inventory of the Artifacts and Conceits of a New Civilization By Donald M. Kaplan and Armand Schwerner, Edited by Louise J. Kaplan Simon and Schuster, 1963 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 13:35:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Domesday Dictionary >The Domesday Dictionary, Being An Inventory of the Artifacts >and Conceits of a New Civilization >By Donald M. Kaplan and Armand Schwerner, >Edited by Louise J. Kaplan >Simon and Schuster, 1963 > I remember seeing The Domesday Dictionary @ Cody's throughout the middle 1960s and never associated it with the poet I later came to know through the Tablets until Michael Andre used copious excerpts in The Poets' Encyclopedia (Unmuzzled Ox Vol IV No V/Vol V, 1979)--some 26 entries. During the 60s and even AFTER the Encyclopedia, my imagination always rewrote that book's title to The Doomsday Dictionary. It wasn't until your post sent me back to the Encyclopedia that I realized my error. Here's my question: Why ISN'T it called the Doomsday Dictionary? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Dec 1994 17:17:47 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodger Kamenetz Subject: Re: Domesday Dictionary In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 31 Dec 1994 13:35:37 -0800 from Ron Silliman asks about the provenance of teh Domesday book. It was a record of a survey completed for William the Conqueror in 1086. Nothing to do with doomsday as far as I can tell. But like Schwerner's work, I gather, an "inventory of the artifacts" of a civilization.