========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 04:31:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Ron Silliman Subject: Tom Mandel's Sonnets Comments: To: cap-l@tc.umn.edu Tom Mandel's sonnet sequence Prospect of Release is out (Chax Press, $12.95, direct from the publisher at chax@mtn.org or wherever good books are sold...meaning SPD in Berkeley, Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee and through Rod Smith at Bridge in D.C.) and I'm as blown away by this work as I was when I first saw the manuscript. Mandel has found a perfect contemporary value for this form in the elegaic. It's remarkable that one can write 50 elegies to one man, even a step-father, each of them so intense in feeling and ultimately different from one another: To one who dies the world begins again followed by words to describe it. Youth and age, luminous with restraint cleaved rock or two not joined. The dead unite the clods of dirt that cover them with instruction, their bones without bare hands. I will do for him what my father did for his. Landscape is imperfect, moonlight to make it so. In unwitting contribution the scientist has taken to himself with love this dead thing, vibrating the conscious use of his own social maladjustment to reveal a living act of revision. There are some tremendous things going on in this poem (just watch how the "v" is used in the final line for example, how it's played off the liquids there against its being paired with the long "i" and hard "b" two lines earlier) as there are in every poem in this book. Prospect of Release is also, to the best of my knowledge, the first Chax Press volume in awhile to declare itself "Chax Press Tucson 1996" although that would be a virtual Tucson I do believe -- Charles and his family have not made the move back from Minneapolis quite yet. Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:03:08 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Re: Spoken word I should have more information mid-next-week on the Taylor CD. As far as other suggestions: most of them aren't on CD Joy Harjo: Furious Light (tape) or The Woman who fell from the sky (book/tape comb.) Kenneth Patchen: Live in Canada (w/ Charlie Mingus) Folkways (record) But as important check out what the journals are doing: Exact Change Yearbook has a CD, Apostrophe is out on tape, WE has a CD out (I think its issue 14) and write to Blank Gun Silencer (now nerve bundle review) and Black Bear Review, they have a whole series of audio recordings. Most of the adresses are on the buffalo web site under Spencers list, the ones that aren't I can get for you. Be well David Baratier ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Author: UB Poetics discussion group at INTERNET Date: 30/07/1996 10:05 >Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 13:51:28 CST >From: David Baratier >Subject: Re: Spoken Word recordings > Steven Taylor has a CD which just came out Do you have a label or contact info on that? Thanks, Bob \\ The Spoken Word Network: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\ \\ the Cacophony Chorus, and London Productions \\ \\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\ \\ london@bitstream.net http://www.bitstream.net/london \\ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 09:42:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Gale Subject: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis The Cacophony Chorus is pleased to present a reading by Chicago poet Marc Smith, inventor of the Poetry Slam, in Minneapolis, Aug 14. Smith, a guiding force behind the performance poetry movement in the U.S., will perform at the Bryant Lake Bowl. Energetic, explosive, and entertaining, Smith's freewheeling readings mix the power of poetry with the possibilities of performance into one seamless blend. Smith will be reading and signing copies of CROWDPLEASER--his first ever book of poems--in which he recreates the effect of live presentation on the printed page with the help of vivid line drawings by Michael Acerra. The Bryant Lake Bowl, located at 810 West Lake Street in South Minneapolis, features an intimate cabaret theater with full bar and restaurant service. Tickets are $6.00. Call (612) 825-8949 for reservations. The Cacophony Chorus is an ongoing performance series highlighting the variety and vibrancy of spoken word talent in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St. Paul. \\ The Spoken Word Network: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\ \\ the Cacophony Chorus, and London Productions \\ \\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\ \\ london@bitstream.net http://www.bitstream.net/london \\ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 10:41:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Spoken word Comments: cc: Loss Glazier In-Reply-To: <9607018389.AA838915442@smtp-gw.mosby.com> from "David Baratier" at Aug 1, 96 10:03:08 am If this hasn't appeared in this thread yet, I'd like to point out spoken word available chez nous - the nous being all of us - available through Linebreak. This is what's cookin'... These recordings are of an extraordinary quality. Production this attentive is all too rare in spoken word recordings. ---------------------------------------------------------- [from the Linebreak Programs page] Clicking an author's or artist's name connects you to a page with their picture, a description of their LINEbreak interview/performance, and their actual LINEbreak program in various soundfile formats. (There is also a link to their EPC Author Home Page, where applicable.) Available programs: Robert Creeley Ray Federman Steve McCaffery Lance & Andrea Olsen Jena Osman Ron Silliman Dennis Tedlock Fiona Templeton Cecilia Vicun~a LINEbreak programs with the following people are in production and will be available here in this summer: Loss Pequen~o Glazier & Ken Sherwood Lyn Hejinian Barbara Guest Ben Friedlander Paul Auster Bruce Andrews Peter Straub Jackson Mac Low Susan Howe Madeline Gins and others. Programs will appear steadily throughout the year as they are produced for broadcast. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: Language Poetry; Deconstruction; New Criticism Comments: To: george hartley In-Reply-To: On Wed, 31 Jul 1996, george hartley wrote: > Tristan: > > >Would a deconstruction of language poetry -- non-representational language > >which strives to produce the primary world of experience to the dis-ease of > >such poetics as Louis Simpson's -- be essentially a New Critical attempt > >to render a text definitively (or unify textualities within a poem) what > >Marjorie Perloff has noted as its vitally indeterminate qualifying > >characteristics? > > > > What is "the primary world of experience"? To the best of my knowledge, > Nick Piombino is the only poet related to language writing who explicitly > uses the language of "experience" (although he has something very specific > in mind). Barry Watten talks about "the world" lots in Total Syntax, but > again in ways that would undo some uses of the concept. What experiences > and what worlds do you have in mind? > > The potential connections between a certain deconstruction & New Criticism > are in themselves intriguing--I'd want more time to construct something > there, but I think I'd begin by questioning how deconstruction would unify > textualities: the word "unify" might be the point at which we could > distinguish between the two projects, both of which depend on intense > scrutiny (close reading) of the text(s). Does the "its" of "its vitally > indeterminate qualifying" refer to deconstruction or language poetry or new > criticism? > > Maybe I've missed some earlier parts of this thread. > > George > RE: Language Poetry and "world" and "experience"-- from Lucaks on, world means something that points simultaneously to epic and lyric--not mutually exclusive but epistemologically divergent genres/modes--Watten's worldliness has much to do with what Thoreau and Cage would have been like if they had been Marxists or Neomarxists instead of post-Kantians-- again--with experience--you have a divergent configuration within a Neomarxist (Althusser) sense of how experience is constructed by culture--and this does not obviate what Emerson indicated by experience and how that line points to (for example) Williams and Baraka and Wieners and Fanny Howe-- perhaps words like world and experience can be experienced by poets as passageways that lead simultaneously to different experiences of different language-worlds-- Joseph Lease ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 12:27:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Mastery Wasn't it Artaud who declared "No more masterpieces!" and then retreated to his cublicle to churn out "Jet of Blood," which is not only a masterpiece, but is the masterpiece to end all masterpieces? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 11:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis bob gale: who is publishing marc smith's crowdpleaser? md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 12:34:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis Comments: To: maria damon In-Reply-To: <3200de1f4767031@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Hey, Maria-- It's me again. Crowdpleaser is being published by Jeff Helgeson/Collage Press here in Chicago. Marc Smith has a Crowdpleaser web page, which I believe has all the pertinent info. But Snail Mail is Collage Press, P.O. Box 1904, Chicago, IL 60690-1904 and phone is 312-764-0353. Jeff's a great guy and the book is fab! jms On Thu, 1 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > bob gale: who is publishing marc smith's crowdpleaser? > md > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:38:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: Spoken Word, LINEbreak, & the list I am just back from a month mostly off-line (I did check in a few times earlier in the month) and will soon read through the 1500 or so messages for what once a slow month on this list. Thanks again to Joel Kuszai who watched over the list in my absence and will continue to work with me on the list. Questions about the list should be directed to us at POETICS@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU. At least for the moment. The whole VMS cluster at UB (our VAX system) is being dismantled this year so all those "@ubvms" addresses will be changing to "@acsu.buffalo.edu". Our IBM system is also being dismantled and that means this list will be shifted over to a UNIX machine, as "transparently" as possible, and that our new list address will change either to Poetics@acsu or Poetics-L@acsu. The "L" might be good as point of clarification but then "poetics" alone remains appealing. More on this as we hear about it. ON SPOKEN WORD, or as I would prefer to call it, poetry readings, as many on the list will know, in 1994 I edited a CD called LIVE AT THE EAR, with selections from 13 poets: Susan Howe, Ron Silliman, Leslie Scalapino, Ted Greenwald, Rosmarie Waldrop, Alan Davies, Barrett Watten, Erica Hunt, Bruce Andrews, Hannah Weiner, Steve McCaffery, Ann Lauterbach, and myself. Remarkably, copies are STILL AVAILALE for the original $15.95 if you ACT NOW. Order from SPD or direct from the Elemenope Productions: 7 Market Square, Suite 281 Pittsburgh, PA 15222 or use Elemenope's "800" number: 1-800-240-6980. I posted some information, including technical details, on LINEbreak as my last post in late June. But to repeat: These are a series of about 30 half-hour interview shows that I did over last year, produced by Martin Spinelli; each include about 10 minutes of readings. All the shows will be put up at the EPC but we are also making cassettes available and we are also working on a book version of the shows. The shows are now available through the Public Radio Satellite Program and will be made available to independent stations as well: however, radio programmers are not exactly lookin' to add poetry to their schedules so the potential for this program to be heard over the radio is sadly diminished. For further information on LINEbreak, you can contact Martin at linebrk@acsu.buffalo.edu. OUR URL is http://writing.upenn.edu/ecp/linebreak. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:39:45 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis >Smith, a guiding force behind the performance poetry movement... bob, would you mind sharing your conception of what this "movement" includes, or leaves out? i've heard it most often in conjunction w/ the slam scene; & hardly ever applied to sound poetry, fr example... "spoken word", and just plain old poetry readings, seem to intersect but not completely overlap... "movement" seems like such a strongly loaded term to me (a marketing term, to my ear), i wonder how its meant. seems to be a number of us here w/ interests in this direction--any other opins? lbd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 06:08:34 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis In-Reply-To: Huh? Marc Smith invented the slam? I thought Al Simmons and Terry Jacobus invented the slam, with poetry readings in boxing rings, etc, in Chicago around about 1980? At least I was hearing about slams and them back then. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 18:29:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Fall Readings at UB Time to make those plane reservations! Wednesdays at 4 Plus=20 FALL POETRY AND PROSE September 4 - November 20, 1996 AT THE STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK, BUFFALO (AMHERST CAMPUS) All events= FREE. LINEbreak on WBFO Mondays at 8pm starting Sept. 9 Host Charles Bernstein interviews poets and fiction writers in this one-hour arts magazine of the air produced by Martin Spinelli. Tune in on WBFO radio (88.7 FM). Cris Cheek Catherine Walsh Poetry Reading and Performance Weds., Sept. 4, 4pm, University Gallery, Center for the Arts=20 Catherine Walsh lives in Dublin, where she teaches English to refugees. Her poetry books include Idir Eatortha, Pitch, and Short Stories. Cris Cheek is an English performance artist and poet with a new spoken word CD in the works. His books include: a present, m u d, and 444. He is also a member of the performance music trio Slant. Deanna Ferguson Poetry Reading Weds., Sept. 11, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA=20 Deanna Ferguson lives in Vancouver, where she is a publisher of Tsunami Editions and a co-editor of BOO Magazine. Her books include Rough Bush, The Relative Minor; Link Fantasy, with Stan Douglas; and Will Tear Us.=20 Pierre Joris Poetry/Translation Reading Weds., Sept. 25, 4pm, CFA Screening Rm Talk "Untranslatability/Translatability : Community/Uncommunity" Thurs., Sept. 26, 12:30pm, 438 Clemens Hall Pierre Joris is the author of Brecca: Selected Poems 1972-1986, the translator of Celan, Blanchot, Jab=E8s, and Schwitters; and the co-editor of Poems for the Millennium: The University of California Book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry. He teaches at SUNY-Albany. John Felstiner, Armand Schwerner Translation Colloquium Thurs., Oct. 3, 12:30, 420 Capen Hall=20 Lecture by John Felstiner: "The Art of Loss: Translating Neruda and Celan" Poetry Reading and Talk by Armand Schwerner: "The Tablets / Dante" Introductions/responses: Jerome Rothenberg, Dennis Tedlock, Ray Federman Armand Schwerner's most recent book collects his legendary serial poem The Tablets (Atlas Press). Presently, he is at work on translations of Dante. John Felstiner is the author of the critically acclaimed study, Paul Celan: Poet, Survivor, Jew (Yale) and of Translating Neruda: The Way to Macchu Picchu (Stanford). He teaches English and Jewish studies at Stanford. Felstiner will also be giving a talk and book signing at Talking Leaves Books at 6:30pm. Lawrence Block Prose Reading Weds., Oct. 9, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA Buffalo-native Lawrence Block is a contemporary master of mystery and suspense. Among his most recent, best-selling books are Coward's Kiss (Carroll & Graf), Spider, Spin Me A Web (Morrow/Quill), The Burglar Who Liked To Quote Kipling (Dutton), and You Could Call It Murder (Carroll &= Graf). Susan Schultz Lecture "Local Vocals: Hawai'i's Pidgin Literature, Performance, and= Postcoloniality" Thurs., Oct. 10, 4pm, 438 Clemens Susan Schultz's poetry books include The Lost Country, Another Childhood and, forthcoming, Aleatory Allegories. She is a professor at the University of Hawai'i-Manoa and the editor of the literary magazine Tinfish and of the critical collection The Tribe of John: Ashbery and Contemporary Poetry. Schultz is a Poetics Program Fellow for the semester. Robert Creeley at 70: A Celebration Thurs., Oct. 10 to Sat., Oct. 12 Join John Ashbery, Gil Sorrentino, Amiri Baraka, Eileen Myles, Jim Dine, and Steve Kuhn & Carol Fredette, Mercury Rev at the Katherine Cornell Theater (UB North Campus) and Hallwalls. =20 Serge Gavronsky Poetry/translation reading Weds., Oct. 16, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA Talk "Transpoetics: Theory and Models" Thurs., Oct. 17, 12:30pm, 438 Clemens Hall Serge Gavronsky has translated Ponge, Zukofsky, Hocquard, Mansour, and Arakawa & Gins; he edited Modern French Poetry and the forthcoming Six Contemporary French Woman Poets; his most recent book is Towards a New Poetics: Contemporary Writing in France. He teaches at Barnard. Al Cook Lecture "New Musics in Poetry: Senses of Sound" Fri., Oct. 18, 4pm, 420 Capen Hall Al Cook is the legendary founder of "poetics" at UB, where he taught from 1963-1978. Cook is the author of 20 books of criticism and 8 books of poetry, and the translator of Oedipus Rex and The Odyssey. He is Ford Foundation Professor (Emeritus) of Comparative Literature, Classics, and English at Brown. Thom Gunn "Committee for Poetry" Reading Mon., Oct. 21, 4pm, location TBA Poet and MacArthur fellow Thom Gunn's Collected Poems were published last year by Farrar, Straus & Giroux, which has also issued Moly, and My Sad Captains. His other books include two collections of essays and memoirs: The Occasions of Poetry and Shelf Life. Leslie Scalapino Poetry Reading Weds., Oct. 23, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA A Conversation with Leslie Scalapino Thursday, Oct. 24, 12:30pm, 438 Clemens Leslie Scalapino's remarkable series of books include The Front Matter, Dead Souls (Wesleyan), Defoe (Sun & Moon), a collection of essays Objects in the Terrifying Tense / Longing from Taking Place (Roof), and a new selected works Green & Black (Talisman). She edits O Books, teaches in Bard's MFA program, and lives in Berkeley. =20 Robert Olen Butler Prose Reading Wed., Oct. 23, Hallwalls (2495 Main Street, Buffalo), 8 pm Robert Olen Butler the author of the Pulizer-prize winning novel, A Good Scent from a Strange Mountain (Holt) will read from his new book, Tabloid Dreams. His reading is sponsored Butler Chair (Department of English), the World Languages Institute, the Program in Asian Studies, and Just Buffalo. Leslie Heywood Multimedia Performance "Building Backlash Bodies: Visible Invisibilities" Weds., Oct. 30, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA Leslie Heywood's Dedication to Hunger: The Anorexic Aesthetic in Modern Culture is just out from UC Press. Her performance touches on the intersection between her experiences as a "disciplined body" in intercollegiate track and cross country and a "disciplined mind" in the academy. A champion weight-lifter, she teaches at SUNY-Binghamton. Murray Edmond Poetry Reading and Talk Fri., Nov. 1, 11am, 438 Clemens Hall Auckland poet Murray Edmond will read from new work and talk about new developments in New Zealand poetry. Edmond's books include End Wall, Letters and Paragraphs, From the Word Go, and The Switch. He has recently completed a study of experimental theater in New Zealand in the 1960s and 70s. John Kinsella Barrett Watten Poetry Reading Weds., Nov. 6, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA "From BASIC English to Under Erasure: Is There a Metalanguage?" =97 lecture by Barrett Watten: Thurs., Nov. 7, 12:30pm, 438 Clemens Discussion with John Kinsella on new Australian poetry: Thurs., Nov. 7, 10:30am, 438 Clemens Barrett Watten's Frame is new this Fall from Sun & Moon. Editor of This and co-editor of Poetics Journal, Watten's other books include Progress and Total Syntax. He teaches at Wayne State. John Kinsella is the author of The Undertow: New and Selected Poems and Syzygy. One of Australia most innovative young poets, he edits Salt. W. S. Merwin Silverman Poetry Reading Fri., Nov. 8, 8pm, 250 Baird Hall Among award-winning poet W. S. Merwin's recent books are The Lost Upland (Knopf), Selected Poems (Atheneum), and his translation of Neruda's Twenty Love Poems and a Song of Despair. Hank Lazer Susan Schultz Poetry Reading Weds., Nov. 13, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA Talk/Discussion with Hank Lazer=20 "Poetry, Criticism, and Institutional Negotiations" Thurs., Nov. 15, 12:30pm, 438 Clemens Opposing Poetries is Hank Lazer's new two-volume collection of essays from Northwestern. His poetry books include Doublespace, Inter(ir)ruptions, and, forthcoming, Displayspace. Professor of English at the University of Alabama, Lazer is also Assistant Dean for Humanities and Fine Arts. Third Annual French Poetry Festival=20 Jos=E9e Lapeyrere, Yves Di Manno, Bernard No=EBl Bilingual Poetry Reading Weds., Nov. 20, 4pm, Univ. Gal., CFA Jos=E9e Lapeyrere is a psychoanalyst, artist, and editor, as well as the author of Belles joues les geraniums, a collection of poems. Yves Di Manno is the director of the collection "Poesie" at Flammarion; Partitions is his most recent poetry collection. Bernard No=EBl is the author of 35 works including novels (Le Syndrome de Gramsci), art criticism (Magritte), and poetry (La Chute des temps). =20 =20 "Wednesdays at 4 PLUS" is a Poetics Program production sponsored, in part, by the Melodia E. Jones Chair in French, Department of Modern Languages and Literatures (Raymond Federman); the James H. McNulty Chair, Department of English (Dennis Tedlock); the Samuel P. Capen Chair of Poetry and the Humanities (Robert Creeley); and the David Gray Chair of Poetry and Letters, Department of English (Charles Bernstein), in cooperation with the University Gallery and the Poetry and Rare Books Collection. The Silverman Reading is sponsored by the Oscar Silverman Fund; the Committee for Poetry Reading is sponsored by the Abbott Fund. This series is made possible, in part, by Poets & Writers, Inc., through a major grant from the Lila Wallace-Reader's Digest Fund and a grant from the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. Coordinated by Charles Bernstein. For further information call (716) 645-3810 or contact us at dunlap@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 22:30:36 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: yet another database... (fwd) I asked Ted if I could forward this, and though he says he doesn't believe in poetry or dancing, he said yes. gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:27:56 -1000 From: t byfield To: Multiple recipients of Subject: yet another database... WASHINGTON -- Senators worried about TERRORISM called for TIGHTER SECURITY at airports having GOVERNMENT take over screening passengers and their baggage SEN. Ernest F. Hollings, D-S.C., said at the crash of TWA Flight 800 a bomb. "the threat of TERRORISM is INCREASING," TRANSPORT SECRETARY Federico Pena a NEW COMMISSION VICE PRESIDENT Al Gore is examining Implementing a COMPREHENSIVE SECURITY SYSTEM could cost Lautenberg said, suggesting a surcharge known as a "security assessment fee." funds could be sought from the DEFENSE DEPARTMENT budget CHAIRMAN Larry Pressler, R-S.D., said he plans a CLOSED HEARING DETAILS THAT CANNOT BE DISCUSSED IN PUBLIC. SEN. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, called for BETTER PASSENGER INFORMATION TO BE COLLECTED by airlines, to prevent a recurrence of delays in notifying next of kin following an accident Pena said his agency is readying RULES TO REQUIRE the airlines to get They're completely fucking nuts. Ted ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 17:03:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Gale Subject: Re: spoken word/Marc Smith >Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:39:45 -0400 >From: Robert Drake >Subject: Re: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis >>Smith, a guiding force behind the performance poetry movement... >bob, would you mind sharing your conception of what this "movement" >includes, or leaves out? i've heard it most often in conjunction >w/ the slam scene; & hardly ever applied to sound poetry, fr >example... "spoken word", and just plain old poetry readings, >seem to intersect but not completely overlap... "movement" >seems like such a strongly loaded term to me (a marketing term, >to my ear), i wonder how its meant. seems to be a number of >us here w/ interests in this direction--any other opins? Yes, you are perhaps correct, "Movement" is a _very_ loaded word -- one person's movement is another person's obstacle. And yes, that post was pulled from a recent news release we sent out, so some marketing tone remained when it really wasn't necessary for this list. My apologies. I used it because Marc has for over a decade been not only a poet and performer, but a producer and organizer. He's the one who came up with the poetry slam format at the Green Mill in Chicago many years ago -- yes, there were previous poetry boxing matches -- but from my understanding, the distillation that we now call a slam started with Marc. For a more (in)complete history, check out: http://www.tezcat.com/~malachit/slam/ I think all this became part of a movement when folks like Smith, Bob Holman (hi Bob), and Gary Glazner started the first National Slams in 1980. Since then it has become an international event with hundreds of participants and thousands of fans, as well as an uncounted number of local unaffiliated slams. Clearly, the merits of the slam format can be debated (I'm of very mixed opinions myself, and I'm not really interested in going down that road). Neither would I _ever_ argue that the slam is the reason that poetry has regained some level recent cultural popularity. No, the point being is there is now a whole nother access point to poetry, one available to people outside the academia, and that these folks are begining to network themselves across the country not merely through slam networks, but regional publications/zines, schools/institutions, and other avenues. (Take this list for example.) This is the "movement" I had in mind, and I hope to think of it as inclusive, rather than exclusive. Therefore, IMHO, we're all part of it to some degree or another. (I should note here, I'm one of those heretical "spoken word" people, and I'm grooving on the cross pollination that is taking place with text-based works, whether it is poets, storytellers, or performance artists.) If you're interested, I recently interviewed Boston Slam Master Michael Brown about many of these same points: http://www.bitstream.net/london/may96/brown.html Peace, Bob \\ The Spoken Word Network: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\ \\ the Cacophony Chorus, and London Productions \\ \\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\ \\ london@bitstream.net http://www.bitstream.net/london \\ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 17:58:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: spoken word/Marc Smith bob gale rites: (I should note here, I'm one of those heretical "spoken word" people, and I'm grooving on the cross pollination that is taking place with text-based works, whether it is poets, storytellers, or performance artists.) yr not alone, in fact "crosspollination" is one word i use frequently in describing what i find exciting about poetry/cultural studies/STUFF. i'm not a slammer myself, but a fan of democratic poetries, and i frequently find myself at (affectionate) odds w/ (some of) these here my listmates.. md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 12:15:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Citing online sources An article in this issue of _Internet World_ gives an overview of citing online sources. Two sources it gives that seem the mosst interesting are: "Beyond the MLA Handbook" http://falcon.eku.edu/honors/beyond-mla and "Elements of E-Text Style" http://wiretap.spies.com/ftp.items/Library/Classic/estyle.txt Anyway, there's more in the article (September 1996): 72-74. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 3 Aug 1996 18:15:02 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: TapRoot Reviews #9/10 announce This is to announce the publication of _TapRoot Reviews_ #9/10 (double issue). Over 300 short reviews of micropress magazines & books, plus articles on Radio Art, Pantograph Press, the Visual Poetry Bienal in Mexico City, poetry videos & CDs, as well as books by Ray DiPalma, Peter Ganick, Susan Smith Nash, Alice Notley, and others. 40 pages, tabloid newsprint format, $5.00 from Burning Press, PO Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107. Special mention is made, in this issue, of writers or publications that also have material available on the World Wide Web. These reviews are excerpted, along with direct links to about 30 of those WWW resources, at: . *Special offer* to Poetics list members: new subscribers can receive this double-issue, normally $5.00, for $2.50 with their new subscription--a total of $10 for numbers 9 thru 13. *Orders must be received by Friday August 9th* (the day our bulk mailing goes out) to take advantage of this offer. Respond via email direct to: (DO NOT RESPOND TO THE POETICS LIST). asever luigi-bob drake, editor TRR/Burning Press/etc... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 04:12:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: Ron Silliman Subject: Fwd: Borders boycott Comments: To: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca Dear folks: The picketting in front of Center City Borders continues. Please join us on Saturday, August 10 beginning at 12 noon to show solidarity for fired union activist Miriam Fried. The picketting is taking place every Saturday but we'd like to have a strong NWU showing there on the 10th. Border is located on Walnut St., between 17th and 18th Streets. For those of you unfamiliar with the saga, here's a brief update. The Center City branch of Borders recently fired one of their employees, ostensibly for bureaucratic reasons. But the truth is, she spearheaded a union drive at the store. After Borders brought in a big union-busting firm, the union drive failed this last March. The United Food and Commercial Workers have taken up the case, filing an unfair labor practices suit on behalf of Miriam. They are also starting to sign up employees for another union drive (another election can't take place until March 1997). A number of unions in the city, including AFSCME, UFCW and IWW, are supporting Miriam and the Borders boycott. So please come out on the 10th, join the picket line, and show writerly solidarity for a fired bookseller. John John Feffer Philadelphia sublocal of the National Writers Union 519 S. Melville St. Philadelphia, PA 19143 215-386-5538 e-mail: nwuphil@libertynet.org url: http://www.libertynet.org/~nwuphil ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 17:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: cancer poetry again In-Reply-To: <199608041112.EAA09061@dfw-ix2.ix.netcom.com> I lost the name of the person who first brought this up and was asked by a nurse about publishing the poetry of the girl who died of cancer, but I heard from someone with an interest in publishing it: From vision.quest.cc@pixie.co.za Wed Jul 31 21:00:37 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 11:01:12 +0200 From: "Vision.quest cc" To: tbjn@well.com Subject: Cancer poetry Dear Thomas Bell, I picked up your query about "cancer poetry" while browsing the Medicine in Literature messages pages on the internet. I am the new editor of the South African Family Practice Journal, and our October edition will be focusing on cancer. If the person is interested in my having a look at the poetry to see if it will "fit" with the other articles, they should feel free to forward it to me via e-mail. Unfortunately, we would not be able to pay anything (and even if we could, the South African currency is so weak at the moment, it would amount to very little in dollar terms). Also to be taken into account is that the journal has a rather limited circulation at present, even though it is 15 years old. We're working on changing that. I look forward to hearing from you, Roy Jobson (M.D.) Roy and Marje Jobson Vision.quest.cc@pixie.co.za 45 22nd Street, MENLO PARK, Pretoria, South Africa, 0081 Tel/Fax: +27-12-467390 tom ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 15:43:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Raphael Dlugonski Subject: Re: spoken word >When is a movmeent just a recognition, a naming what has existed for decades. Or you want to convince the public this product is new by focussing on a part of the product that has existed as a minority element. think of the reading that luanched the beats, with kerouac as dorman and designated interruptor. performance poetry/slams/spoken word have increased awareness of poetry's conneciton with body, vernacular, and current media. some poets have always worked this connection--like blake mallarme whitman. what would be fantastic would be a wave to maintain the neregy level of 'performance/spoken' with syntax-deep, connotation-rich work (which might not fit the slam's 3 minute limit or appeal to an audience if it was short enough) that is, i believe, at the core of poetry: unleashing the power of language as it can tap collective and specualtive consciousness' in a wide variety of peoples. > >Topics of the day: > > 1. yet another database... (fwd) > 2. spoken word/Marc Smith (2) > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 22:30:36 -1000 >From: Gabrielle Welford >Subject: yet another database... (fwd) > >I asked Ted if I could forward this, and though he says he doesn't believe >in poetry or dancing, he said yes. gab. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 15:27:56 -1000 >From: t byfield >To: Multiple recipients of >Subject: yet another database... > >WASHINGTON -- Senators worried about TERRORISM called for >TIGHTER SECURITY at airports having GOVERNMENT take over bla bla> screening passengers and their baggage SEN. Ernest >F. Hollings, D-S.C., said at the crash of TWA Flight 800 bla bla> a bomb. "the threat of TERRORISM is INCREASING," >TRANSPORT SECRETARY Federico Pena a NEW COMMISSION bla> VICE PRESIDENT Al Gore is examining Implementing a >COMPREHENSIVE SECURITY SYSTEM could cost Lautenberg said, >suggesting a surcharge known as a "security assessment fee." > funds could be sought from the DEFENSE >DEPARTMENT budget CHAIRMAN Larry Pressler, R-S.D., said he >plans a CLOSED HEARING DETAILS THAT CANNOT BE DISCUSSED IN >PUBLIC. SEN. Olympia Snowe, R-Maine, called for BETTER >PASSENGER INFORMATION TO BE COLLECTED by airlines, to prevent a recurrence >of delays in notifying next of kin following an accident to do with the ostensible TERRORISM THREAT, of course...bla bla bla> Pena >said his agency is readying RULES TO REQUIRE the airlines to get INFO FROM YOU, bla bla bla> > > > They're completely fucking nuts. > >Ted > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 17:03:08 -0600 >From: Bob Gale >Subject: Re: spoken word/Marc Smith > >>Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1996 16:39:45 -0400 >>From: Robert Drake >>Subject: Re: Marc Smith to perform in Minneapolis > >>>Smith, a guiding force behind the performance poetry movement... > >>bob, would you mind sharing your conception of what this "movement" >>includes, or leaves out? i've heard it most often in conjunction >>w/ the slam scene; & hardly ever applied to sound poetry, fr >>example... "spoken word", and just plain old poetry readings, >>seem to intersect but not completely overlap... "movement" >>seems like such a strongly loaded term to me (a marketing term, >>to my ear), i wonder how its meant. seems to be a number of >>us here w/ interests in this direction--any other opins? > >Yes, you are perhaps correct, "Movement" is a _very_ loaded word -- one >person's movement is another person's obstacle. And yes, that post was >pulled from a recent news release we sent out, so some marketing tone >remained when it really wasn't necessary for this list. My apologies. > >I used it because Marc has for over a decade been not only a poet and >performer, but a producer and organizer. He's the one who came up with the >poetry slam format at the Green Mill in Chicago many years ago -- yes, >there were previous poetry boxing matches -- but from my understanding, the >distillation that we now call a slam started with Marc. > >For a more (in)complete history, check out: > > http://www.tezcat.com/~malachit/slam/ > >I think all this became part of a movement when folks like Smith, Bob >Holman (hi Bob), and Gary Glazner started the first National Slams in 1980. >Since then it has become an international event with hundreds of >participants and thousands of fans, as well as an uncounted number of local >unaffiliated slams. > >Clearly, the merits of the slam format can be debated (I'm of very mixed >opinions myself, and I'm not really interested in going down that road). >Neither would I _ever_ argue that the slam is the reason that poetry has >regained some level recent cultural popularity. > >No, the point being is there is now a whole nother access point to poetry, >one available to people outside the academia, and that these folks are >begining to network themselves across the country not merely through slam >networks, but regional publications/zines, schools/institutions, and other >avenues. (Take this list for example.) This is the "movement" I had in >mind, and I hope to think of it as inclusive, rather than exclusive. >Therefore, IMHO, we're all part of it to some degree or another. > >(I should note here, I'm one of those heretical "spoken word" people, and >I'm grooving on the cross pollination that is taking place with text-based >works, whether it is poets, storytellers, or performance artists.) > >If you're interested, I recently interviewed Boston Slam Master Michael >Brown about many of these same points: > > http://www.bitstream.net/london/may96/brown.html > >Peace, >Bob > >\\ The Spoken Word Network: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\ > \\ the Cacophony Chorus, and London Productions \\ > \\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\ > \\ london@bitstream.net http://www.bitstream.net/london \\ > >------------------------------ > >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 17:58:37 -0500 >From: maria damon >Subject: Re: spoken word/Marc Smith > >bob gale rites: >(I should note here, I'm one of those heretical "spoken word" people, and >I'm grooving on the cross pollination that is taking place with text-based >works, whether it is poets, storytellers, or performance artists.) > > >yr not alone, in fact "crosspollination" is one word i use frequently in >describing what i find exciting about poetry/cultural studies/STUFF. i'm not a >slammer myself, but a fan of democratic poetries, and i frequently find myself >at (affectionate) odds w/ (some of) these here my listmates.. >md > >------------------------------ > >End of POETICS Digest - 1 Aug 1996 to 2 Aug 1996 >************************************************ > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 21:56:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: cancer poetry again tom bell writes: > I lost the name of the person who first brought this up and was asked by > a nurse about publishing the poetry of the girl who died of cancer, but I > heard from someone with an interest in publishing it: From > vision.quest.cc@pixie.co.za Wed Jul 31 21:00:37 1996 Date: Wed, 31 Jul > 1996 11:01:12 +0200 From: "Vision.quest cc" > To: tbjn@well.com Subject: Cancer poetry Dear Thomas Bell, I picked up > your query about "cancer poetry" while browsing the Medicine in Literature > messages pages on the internet. I am the new editor of the South African > Family Practice Journal, and our October edition will be focusing on > cancer. If the person is interested in my having a look at the poetry to > see if it will "fit" with the other articles, they should feel free to > forward it to me via e-mail. Unfortunately, we would not be able to pay > anything (and even if we could, the South African currency is so weak at > the moment, it would amount to very little in dollar terms). Also to be > taken into account is that the journal has a rather limited circulation at > present, even though it is 15 years old. We're working on changing that. > I look forward to hearing from you, Roy Jobson (M.D.) Roy and Marje Jobson > Vision.quest.cc@pixie.co.za 45 22nd Street, MENLO PARK, Pretoria, South > Africa, 0081 Tel/Fax: +27-12-467390 > > tom just a note to say that though i don't recall the person's name either (male and from "down under" is all i recall, and not wystan or tony), i feel a glow of pleasure at this possibility, and i like it that this list enabled a (potential) publication of poems know one on the list knows (but cd be important to someone), in a publication that (probably) no one on the list knows (but cd be important to someone). md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1996 23:34:54 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: spoken word Comments: To: Dan Raphael Dlugonski On 4 Aug 96 at 15:43, Dan Raphael Dlugonski wrote: > what would be fantastic would be a wave to maintain the neregy level of > 'performance/spoken' with syntax-deep, connotation-rich work (which might > not fit the slam's 3 minute limit or appeal to an audience if it was short > enough) that is, i believe, at the core of poetry: unleashing the power of > language as it can tap collective and specualtive consciousness' in a wide > variety of peoples. One useful thing that's happening in the slams here in Dallas is that we have featured poets, performing before the event and between the rounds. While these are often visiting Slam poets and the like, they frequently feature poets who work in different formats. It's a good spot for people whose work tends to go on beyond the 3 minute limit or does not have the competitive inyourfaceitude. My sound-poetry ensemble, "Question Authority, the", are going to be featured a few weeks from now. While we're definitely not Slam poetry (though some of our members have slammed), we think what we do will get a good reception (once people get beyond their initial confusion :-]). ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 14:03:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Mail >> FWD I am forwarding this inquiry at the request of a friend. __________________________________________________ Received: from: ecalabria\e^poste^.ita (8.6.12/8.6.12) id LMAAA09046664090; Mon, 5 Aug 1996 12:30:18 -0400 I was wondering if you could do me a favor & post this to that Poem Chat List that you frequent, & see if anyone could provide me with a bit more information on this. (As per your suggestion, I've been considering actually signing ON to that list; but I am not sure that I could get it here in Italy? & anyway, who wants 100 pieces of email every day? I much prefer just 'hearing' about it from you). Well, on to my question. While in Rome recently, I caught wind of a wonderful piece by Mr. H. Gould that appeared back in the States in something that has been refed to as A POX OF THEM. Apparently it is a perfect example of what the Geist has to say. This is a wonderful question really, What in deed does the Geist say? Can anyone enlighten me as to what a.) The Geist says? & b.) What Henry has said it says, if you feel that a. & b. are substantially different? {An email document of the text might suffice, but I doubt that a hard copy would ever make it to me--has anyone out there ever tried to GO to the Post-Office in Italy?} Many thanks. Yours, T.Door ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:45:46 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Italian post Re Italy and Post Office: best I heard was in 70's from a friend who had lived in Italy for a while, Eileen Maitland. The gist was that the backlog of undelivered mail got so big that three weeks worth was incinerated by the P.O. so it cd make a fresh start. How "true" this story is I do not know. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:41:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Mail >> FWD In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 05 Aug 96 15:35:07 EDT from molte grazie, Gale! I'm either the toast of or getting roasted in Rome, I guess. p.s. while I've got you online, I'd be molte grateful for any word of mouth you can provide for the Anderson/Waldrop reading on Aug 15th at Native Gallery (8 pm). Maybe see you there? Thanks - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:49:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: sorry gang sorry gang for private post to the list. I'm going back to wooden typewriters & outhouses & doghouses where I belong... - HG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 15:22:41 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: mail fwd Well, on to my question. While in Rome recently, I caught wind of a wonderful piece by Mr. H. Gould that appeared back in the States in something that has been refed to as A POX OF THEM. Apparently it is a perfect example of what the Geist has to say. This is a wonderful question really, What in deed does the Geist say? Can anyone enlighten me as to what a.) The Geist says? & b.) What Henry has said it says, if you feel that a. & b. are substantially different? A.) The geist windbags hardly anything as it is a verb: gesprungen, that is to jump in the past. B.) Henry, following Hopkin's ruse, has made you believe in its plausibility, therefore: Just don't call it late for dinner. Or to re-phrase Pound in a pleasing manner, pilaster and perish! It's difference is well documented in music, say the differrance between gavotte and goucherie (or cf Yeats _A Vision_ page 117). Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1996 17:24:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Italian post >Re Italy and Post Office: best I heard was in 70's from a friend who >had lived in Italy for a while, Eileen Maitland. The gist was that the >backlog of >undelivered mail got so big that three weeks worth was incinerated by >the P.O. so it cd make a fresh start. How "true" this story is I do >not know. > >Tony Green, While in Italy in the Fall of 1977, I saw television coverage of this event (though I dont know whether this happened often). They showed a bulldozer-like machine pushing mounds of mail into the flames. George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 03:26:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Mail When I worked in the U.S. Postal Service (1967-8) the rule of thumb was that the mail had to be delivered only so that there would be room to store the new mail. Sincerely, A disgruntled formal postal employee ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:01:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: disgruntled postal workers, dead mail & Bartleby I was living in Arles, France in May '68. There was no Postes-Telegraphes-Telephones. A dog show drew huge crowds and the Communists attempted to distribute truckloads of free potatoes--which the Gypsies stole. There was so much going on no one missed the mail. Re disgruntled former postal employees and buried mail, there's Melville's Bartleby the Scrivener, from which this: The report was this: that Bartleby had been a subordinate clerk in the Dead Letter Office in Washington, from which he had been suddenly removed by a change in the administration. When I think over this rumor, hardly can I express the emotions which seize me. Dead letters! does it not sound like dead men? Conceive a man by nature and misfortune prone to a pallid hopelessness, can any business seem more fitted to heighten it than that of continually handling these dead letters, and assorting them for the flames? . . . On errands of life, these letters speed to death. Ah, Bartleby! Ah, humanity! --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 07:47:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject:

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========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 08:46:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: August Events at Small Press Traffic Small Press Traffic presents: =46riday, August 9, 7:30 p.m. at the New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, SF $5 Mary Burger Jordan Davis Robert Hale ----------------------------------------------------------- Thursday, August 29, 7:30 p.m. at the New College Theater 777 Valencia Street, SF $5 Gertrude Stein, Jewish Social Scientists and the =8CJewish Question=B9 a talk by Maria Damon =B3Gertrude Stein, Jewish Social Scientists and the =8CJewish Question=B9=B2= will place Stein in dialogue with various Jewish social scientists (Maurice =46ishberg, Otto Weininger, Sigmund Freud, Melville Herskovits) who wanted t= o participate in the social scientific discourse of their time but also had concerns about how, as Jews, to negotiate the anti-Semitism of much of that social science. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 09:38:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: disgruntled postal workers, dead mail & Creeley And don't forget: They are taking all my letters, and they put them into a fire. I see the flames, etc. But do not care, etc. They burn everything I have, or what little I have. I don't care, etc. ... from THE DISHONEST MAILMEN by Robert Creeley (in _For Love_) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 14:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Hiroshima & Shadows Re Melville's "Dead letters! does it not sound like dead men?" Today is the anniversary of Hiroshima nuclear holocaust. To particpate in International Shadows Project in memorium of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, contact Jukka Lehmus' Cyanobacteria Page at Grist On-Line http://www.thing.net./~grist. Catalogues of previous Projects available from Karl Young's Light and Dust Page at same URL, as is Young's poem Three, Hiroshima which uses English equivalents of words from Flaubert's Trois Contes and Resnais' film Hiroshima Mon Amour. Participation in hopes to change Melville's lines "On errands of life, these letters speed to death". the river vanishes/clusters of petrified promises/carpeted with flowers/wild iris/tortured iron/dawn watches/noon waits/sunset makes promises/bells ring in darkness/the temperature of warm oceans --from Three, Hiroshima by Karl Young --db chirot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:30:27 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: Italian post Excellent, George. Good to have what Eileen said confirmed. It was "true": you saw it on TV. I have no head for dates, but I thought she told me this in 1976. Either it happened more than once, or my memory is wrong. Think: no phone or power bills etc: social chaos. "People want delivery". Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:31:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Hiroshima & Shadows In-Reply-To: Many years ago when I was a younger poet (and not yet fiction writer), I wrote a prose poem on the subject of the dead letter office. Text follows: Wistfulness covers the windows like drapes. Ten men, armed with hankies, sort the mail into two categories, letters that make them happy, letters that make them sad. Don't get me wrong. These civil servants, trusted with the awesome duty of burning millions of letters a year, do not open the envelopes like a mortician prying into the life of a client. It isthe envelope itself that makes them sad. Childish handwriting scrawled to a deceased aunt makes them weep. A letter from overseas to a wife who has moved, unknown to her husband, creates such tumult that the walls quiver like jelly. Few letters are happy ones, the eviction notice never delivered, the lost bill. But when a happy letter comes into their possession, it's a red letter day. The men cheer wildly, tear up letters and toss them out of the window, tickertape fashion. ANd what bliss when something intervenes and a doomed letter, like a terminally ill patient, is saved. Maxine Chernoff On Tue, 6 Aug 1996, Christina Fairbank Chirot wrote: > Re Melville's "Dead letters! does it not sound like dead men?" > > Today is the anniversary of Hiroshima nuclear holocaust. > To particpate in International Shadows Project in memorium of > Hiroshima and Nagasaki, contact Jukka Lehmus' Cyanobacteria Page at Grist > On-Line http://www.thing.net./~grist. Catalogues of previous Projects > available from Karl Young's Light and Dust Page at same URL, as is > Young's poem Three, Hiroshima which uses English equivalents of words > from Flaubert's Trois Contes and Resnais' film Hiroshima Mon Amour. > > Participation in hopes to change Melville's lines "On errands of > life, these letters speed to death". > > the river vanishes/clusters of petrified promises/carpeted with > flowers/wild iris/tortured iron/dawn watches/noon waits/sunset makes > promises/bells ring in darkness/the temperature of warm oceans > > --from Three, Hiroshima by Karl Young > > --db chirot > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 16:41:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: disgruntled postal workers, dead mail & Bartleby My favourite US fiction re the post office isnt _Bartleby_ and it isnt "Why I lIve at the PO" (tho the latter is the source of the name of the e-mail system I am using right now). It is Richard Wright's _Lawd Today_. George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 18:02:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: disgruntled postal workers, dead mail & Bartleby This is Dodie Bellamy. US fiction re the post office: =46rom the Eudora manual, Version 1.5: "When I was looking for a name for my new Post Office Protocol mail program, I thought immediately of the title of a short story I=B9d read year= s before: 'Why I Live at the P.O.' So I named the program after the author of the story, Eudora Welty. "'Why I Live at the P.O.' can be found in a collection titled A Curtain of Green (Harcourt Brace Jovanovich). I highly recommend reading it, and anything else you can find by Ms. Welty. Her stories are funny, sad, and fascinating; she=B9s surely one of the great American writers." =8B Steve Dorner ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 20:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: disgruntled postal workers Re postal workers, memorials, unions--and dreams: An interesting book concerning postal workers and the male: Charles Olson's The Post Office A memoir of his Father (Grey Fox Press, available at SPD and Woodland Pattern) which concerns Olson pere's efforts on behalf of the mail carriers' union. These efforts were much hampered, leading to the senior Olson's loss of joy in life and early death according to his son, who also worked as a mail carrier during summers off from school. The story of the father linked significantly to the "Pilgrim fathers": . . . the trouble out of which his death came was born fourteen years earlier . . . . I can date it that exactly because it was his determination to take me to the celebration at Plymouth of the 300th anniversary of the Pilgrim landing that aggravated the situation his superiors at the Post Office had provoked. The dreams of postal workers--the dream castle built in France by postman in his spare time . . . . . . the mail/male and analysis: The Purloined Letter & its Lacanian readings . . . --and Elvis: "Return to Sender" --db chirot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:41:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Italian post Yeah, I am looking at my backlog of e-mail and wondering whether I can remember how to drive a bulldozer. George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 21:46:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: disgruntled postal workers Couple of years ago Bruce Serafin published a wonderful narrative about working in the post office, in _Vancouver Review_. George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 01:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Aug 1996 to 5 Aug 1996 While I attempt to confine Slam poetry -- Hannah Weiner and Doug Oliver, among others, have won Slams at the Nuyorican -- I send along my own experience with... The Italian Postal System First all the envelopes are dipped. For this purpose, giant scald cauldrons Are used, the very ones that Caesar Augustus Had ordered brought from Egypt for use as boneboilers By the Capuchin monks. During the Dip A strike probably occurs. The vats Are then generally purged by all passing caribinieri Whose uzis have been recently lost, but if not, The steam, which has been clinging to the ever- Changing ceiling frescoes, is revaporized And thereafter recondensed several times by means Of centrifugal coolants, with diffrent centrifugal coolant Manufacturers employed in the North, Central And Southern Postal Universes. This process quite often replicates The original addresses directly upon the appropriate "Lost While In Transit" cards. Thus ends the Dip. The donkeys are led out, and attached to the carts, Each bearing the Postal Code Numbers, or, for International, A System of Carrots, the sizes and expressive shapes Of which have all been translated into a Code of the World's Regions. Complex to the casual viewer, one Italian family has been arranging these carrots For centuries, and the Annual Festival of the Carrots, Held in Gubbio but celebrated throughout Italy, Is cause for great festivities throughout The Postal System, and any letters in the carrot-id'ed Carts during this period (usually the month of July, But sometimes extending into August or even September) Are treated like good friends and are never allowed To leave. Many other elements, remnants of previous Postal Systems, abound, with meanings lost in time but which Still provide glimmers of the ancient ways, and for many Are, indeed, a palimpsest of life itself. That The whole actually functions, and that one can, By placing one's tongue directly on the tiny wafer- Like stamp, actually participate in this oldest Of rituals, is a miracle open to everyone. Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 01:17:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: postal reclassification seminars You may be interested to know god my fingers are cold that each piece of mail that a postal ocr cannot process is looked at by a video camera, which transmission is sent to god california is cold! a video optical character center in west virginia or montana or arizona. if after a minute the minimum wage typist can't read your red fancy ink zip (not plus four) then someone at the station you dropped the piece picks it up says,, mmm wonder where this goes. BARCODE! Love, Your poetics grump, Jordan Jordan Davis 46 e 7 #10 nyc 10003 I believe 212 598 0553 Spumoni $1.00 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:17:01 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wystan Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: poetry and speed dear list, I know its summer for most of you all, but its peak season down here and i've been asked to think about poetry and speed --not that which you are on but what you are at. I wondered about developing 20 or so propositions before putting out this APB but then speed IS of the essence and why wait? So while I work at those I'd be grateful for any tips, pointers, theories, multi-volume treatises you can put my way,very grateful. yours in haste, wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 03:27:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: re poetry & speed A Crash Course in Poetry & Speed//Speed Reading Emerson's The Poet: Language is vehicular Pound's ABC of Reading: Keeping the language efficient WCWilliams' Intro to The Wedge: Poem as machine Olson's Projectivist Verse: FASTER FASTER FASTER Yet--slow down reading by their methods of notation, use of space of page, types of markings, spacings--ideograms, documents, heiroglyphs-- Speed of poetry vs. speed reading Kerouac: Writing is silent meditation going a hundred miles an hour. Kerouac, from Vanity of Duluoz: (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation.) Virilio in Pure War says there should be a Museum of Accidents, Collisions speed of poetry in relation to state and property (Pound & Emerson's Land-lord, air-lord sea-lord poet--Marinetti's parole in liberta and Fascist state-- speed of poetry & the local: wcw & Olson kerouac's speed: memory and sound--sketching is speed "immediacy and force" (Eigner) or eidetic? speed in relation to words as things "Poetry in motion" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 07:25:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: poetry and speed In-Reply-To: <337BCD069FC@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, wystan wrote: > dear list, > I know its summer for most of you all, but its peak season down > here and i've been asked to think about poetry and speed --not that > which you are on but what you are at. I wondered about developing 20 or > so propositions before putting out this APB but then speed IS of the > essence and why wait? So while I work at those I'd be grateful for any > tips, pointers, theories, multi-volume treatises you can put my way,very > grateful. > yours in haste, > wystan > not too fast, wystan... remember Ed Dorn's line from _Slinger_: "Speed is not necessarily fast" (SLINGER in fact is interesting in relation to speed) on a slow hazy morning in Albany, Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 07:45:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: poetry and speed In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Aug 1996 18:17:01 GMT+1200 from speed response: first thing I think of when you say "poetry & speed" is "Cape Hatteras" section of H. Crane's _The Bridge_. [You.are.reading. a.programmed.reply.Neuron.receptor.wired.to.hard.disk.for.intellect. enhancement.Do.not.reply.to.this.robot.] - H. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:07:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: poetry and speed Marinetti et al.? Projective Verse 's INSTANTER? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:09:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Calls for papers; history of text From: MX%"JEROSE@drew.edu" 6-AUG-1996 22:40:33.47 To: MX%"SHARP-L@iubvm.ucs.indiana.edu" CC: Subj: SHARP Conference and Journal X-VMS-To: IN%"SHARP-L@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:37:10 -0400 Reply-To: JEROSE@drew.edu From: Jonathan Rose Subject: SHARP Conference and Journal To: Multiple recipients of list SHARP-L Date: 06-Aug-1996 10:09pm EST From: Rose, Jonathan JEROSE Dept: FAC/STAFF Tel No: (201)-408-3545 TO: Press SH to view recipients. Subject: SHARP Conference and Journal CALL FOR PAPERS AND CONTRIBUTORS The Society for the History of Authorship, Reading and Publishing solicits proposals for its fifth annual conference and contributions for its new scholarly journal, *Book History*. SHARP will meet 4-7 July 1997 at the University of Cambridge. We welcome proposals for papers dealing with the creation, diffusion, or reception of script or print in any historical period. There are no limitations on topics. Proposals for either individual papers (20 minutes in length) or full panels (comprising a chair and three papers) may be submitted. We may also sponsor workshops devoted to shorter, more informal presentations of works in progress. Proposals (one page maximum per paper) and inquiries about the conference itself (including requests for advance booking forms) should be sent to: James Raven SHARP Conference Programme Committee 51 Sherlock Close Cambridge CB3 0HP United Kingdom The absolute deadline for receipt of proposals is 20 November 1996. Four travel grants of $250 each will be offered to graduate students who present papers at the conference: to apply, simply indicate in your cover letter that you wish to be considered for this award. All other participants and presenters will be expected to pay their own expenses, including the registration fee; so please submit proposals only if you can arrange for your own funding. SHARP is also launching a new juried scholarly journal, *Book History*. It will be a hardcover annual edited by Ezra Greenspan and Jonathan Rose, and published by Penn State Press. *Book History* is devoted to every aspect of the history of the book, broadly defined as the history of the creation, dissemination, and reception of script and print. It will publish research on the social, economic, and cultural history of authorship, editing, printing, the book arts, publishing, the book trade, periodicals, newspapers, ephemera, copyright, censorship, literary agents, libraries, literary criticism, canon formation, literacy, literary education, reading habits, and reader response. *Book History* will be published in English, but it welcomes articles dealing with any national literature. Publication of the first issue is scheduled for August 1998. Articles dealing with any part of the American hemisphere or the Middle East should be submitted to Prof. Ezra Greenspan, Department of English, University of South Carolina, Columbia, SC 29208, USA, ezra.greenspan@scarolina.edu. Articles dealing with other parts of the world should be submitted to Prof. Jonathan Rose, Department of History, Drew University, Madison, NJ 07940, USA, jerose@drew.edu. Send one hard copy and a WordPerfect diskette for each article. To obtain information on joining SHARP and subscribing to SHARP publications -- or to request a free sample copy of the SHARP newsletter -- contact the Membership Secretary, Dr. Linda Connors, Drew University Library, Madison, NJ 07940, USA, lconnors@drew.edu. [Other lists and print publications please copy] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 09:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: re poetry & speed paul virilio and nietzsche on "tempo" --fn was one of the first to compose on the typewriter, along w/ mark twain. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 10:22:04 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: jeffrey peterson jeffrey, are you out there? rsvp backchannel--i have some oppen chit-chat to share. burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 11:21:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: query In-Reply-To: <009A67D2.BE1066A0.150@admin.njit.edu> Would anybody have the address or know the whereabouts of the translator Eric Selland -- or have an address for Leech Books -=- thanks -- Pierre (backchannel's best) ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Form fascinates when one no longer has the force Dept. of English | to understand force from within itself. That SUNY Albany | is, to create." -- Jacques Derrida Albany NY 12222 | tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | "Poetry is the promise of a language." email: | -- Friedrich Holderlin joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:53:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: changing back in minneapolis for two weeks before moving to tucson but also changing computer & modem, so just in case this is the last message i can get out, I will give details on address change. for mail arriving by august 16, 1996: chax press (and/or charles alexander) box 19178 minneapolis, mn 55419-0178 for mail arriving after august 16, 1996: chax press (and/or charles alexander) box 848 tucson, az 85701-0848 If there's a doubt as to when the mail will arrive, please send to the tucson address, as that box is open even now, although no one will be there to pick up that mail until after august 16. thank you, charles alexander chax press ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:04:17 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry and speed Hi, Wystan, do you mean maxims like : "Get it down real quick, before you forget it, or before you get waylaid by self-censorship". That kind of speed? It would be speedier to phone you, but yr question is in this public space, so I'll do it the slow way. See you at the A.C.A.G. lunch-time. Best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 08:15:25 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Charred Italian leaves Hey Signor Postino look and see / if there's a lettera there for me... Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:15:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poetry and speed >Projective Verse >'s INSTANTER? Oh! I always thought that was "instant er" as in "immediate uh" George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 15:12:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: poetry and speed Well, yeah, I remember the Ed Dorn quip. But remember, Yogi Berra said "It's getting late early." George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:17:02 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: South African Boy Faces Death Row in Mississippi (fwd) I couldn't find out more about this. Does anyone else know anything? gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Resent-From: Anthony Alessandrini Joedeu-Forgey Elisa Von wrote: From: jvon@sas.upenn.edu (Joedeu-Forgey Elisa Von) > From: "Elaine Salo, Anthro Grad Student" > This from the National Coalition against the Death Penalty, located > in Washington DC > elaine salo > > NCADP "STOP KILLING KIDS!" ALERT: > > INTERNATIONAL ACTION NEEDED TO KEEP S.AFRICAN BOY OFF OF DEATH ROW > > PLEASE ACT NOW. > > PLEASE FORWARD. > > CASE BRIEF: > > After surviving some of Apartheid's most turbulent years, a South African > child faces the death penalty in Mississippi for a crime in which he was > little more than a bystander. > Azikiwe Kambule came to the United States two years ago with his mother. > Azi had no trouble adjusting academically; he received excellent grades, was > placed in honors classes and joined the school choir. Yet, Azi found himself > under immense social pressure -- he didn't look, speak or dress like other > children in his neighborhood. > Azi wanted to "fit in" with his peers, and not be the subject of their > ridicule. He met and started spending time with youth who were older and > very street-wise. When Azi's grades began to drop, his parents began to > worry that his new friends were the wrong crowd. Fearing the worst, they > decided to scrape together the funds to send Azi to a boarding school. > Tragically, it was already too late. > One evening, Azi found himself in the middle of a car-jacking in which a > young African American woman was killed. Azi himself was so far away from > the crime scene that he did not hear the gunshots. When arrested, he was > the only one to cooperate with the police. He fully explained the terrible > series of events and tried repeatedly to help the authorities in their > investigation. > Despite having no criminal record, no history of violence, being merely a > bystander and providing his full cooperation, Azi has been charged as an > accomplice to capital murder. Mississippi is seeking the death penalty > against Azi, a child in the tenth grade. > The situation in which Azi finds himself speaks volumes about the use of the > death penalty against children. During this decade, only five nations in the > world are known to have executed persons for crimes they committed when under > 18-years-old. Those countries are Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia . . . > and the United States. Of these five, America has executed the most. A > condemned child in the United States also tends to be of darker hue -- 66% of > those persons sentenced to death as children have been from racial > minorities. And nowhere is the international rule of law more clear than > the prohibition on the use of the death penalty against children. The > International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the United States > has ratified, clearly states that the "sentence of death shall not be imposed > for crimes committed by persons below the age of eighteen." Indeed, every > major human rights treaty in the world has the same express wording. > Azi sits today in a Mississippi jail cell, with his life hanging in the > balance. The District Attorney wishes to seal Azi's fate, and is quoted in > the local newspaper as saying that because the "jurors in [predominantly > black] Hinds County have a reputation for refusing to vote for the death > penalty," he moved Azi's trial to a predominantly white county where the > outcome would be more certain, if not predictable. > Azi is a child who has suffered from human rights abuses throughout his > brief life -- first in South Africa, and now in the United States. Yet, the > errors in his childhood should not prove fatal. He deserves our passion-- > not poison. Please join the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty > in our efforts to save Azi's life. > > 4 THINGS YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW TO HELP SAVE AZI: > > 1) FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS AND PRESS CONTACTS > > 2) WRITE THE D.A.: > ---Azi is a South African child who has no history of violence or prior > run-ins with the law; was so far away from the murder that he did not even > hear the gun shots; and has fully cooperated with the police. > There is no reason why DA Kitchens should be seeking to kill him or put him > behind bars for the rest of his life! > -----JAMES KITCHENS, ESQ. / MADISON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY/P.O. BOX 121/ > CANTON, MS 39046/ (601) 859-8880-fax /(601) 859-7838-phone. > > 3)MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD: > Please contact the following news organizations: > --Clarion-Ledger Newspaper > letters@jackson.gannett.com > > --WLBT T.V. News > WLBT@teclink.com > > --Jackson Advocate Newspaper (Black owned &operated) > 300 N.Farish Street > Jackson,MS 39202 > 1(601) 948-4125--fax > > > IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION OR ARE INTERESTED IN HELPING TO RAISE > MONEY FOR AZI'S DEFENSE PLEASE CONTACT THE NCADP AT "NCADP1@aol.com" or > 1-800-347-2411, ext.5 > > NOTE: The National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty (NCADP) was > founded in 1976. Our affiliates include several large civil rights, > religious and political organizations, and over 100 state and local > anti-death penalty groups. We are located at 918 F.Street, NW Washington, > DC 20024. Our phone number is 1(202) 347-2411. Our e-mail address in > "NCADP1@AOL.COM." > > --- from list postcolonial@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 19:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Polish children's song In-Reply-To: OK, here's one really obscure/abstruse for y'all: I need help tracking down a children's song in Polish which is about crows and begins with the refrain "Caw, caw, caw," although without any Ginsbergian "Lord Lord Lord" in it. I swear this is for a poem. Please help a fellow Polack who married Irish. Gwyn McVay no, that doesn't mean green champagne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1996 23:03:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Aug 1996 to 5 Aug 1996 >Hannah Weiner and Doug Oliver, among others, have won Slams at the Nuyorican Bob, when did Hannah read at the Nuyorican? --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:58:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george hartley Subject: Re: re poetry & speed Christina Fairbank's > > "Poetry in motion" the Indigo Girls? on this list at last! the speed of cultural transmission (Virginia Woolf, Galileo) the speed of light in the poetry of the stars at night ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 07:52:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Upcoming reading (Rhode Island) Comments: To: cap-l@tc.umn.edu For anyone in the Rhode Island area: on Thursday, August 15th at 8 pm Beth Anderson & Keith Waldrop will be reading at Native Gallery, 387 Charles St, Providence. The current five-artist exhibit will also be open. Native Gallery is a large new space just beyond the Prov. Main Post Office, in a former factory complex across from the entrance to Rt 146. For more info or directions, call the gallery at 521-3554, or email me at Henry_Gould@brown.edu. Reading sponsored by the Poetry Mission, first of a series at the gallery in conjunction with new shows. Next reading will be Fri. Sept 6th and will feature RI poets Sylvia Moubayed & Stuart Blazer. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 09:21:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Aug 1996 to 5 Aug 1996 In message <960807230356_254618519@emout13.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >Hannah Weiner and Doug Oliver, > among others, have won Slams at the Nuyorican > > Bob, > when did Hannah read at the Nuyorican? > > --Rod yeah, i wanna know about this too. what did she read, and what 's her reading like in general?--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:49:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: re poetry & speed who are the Indigo Girls, and in what way are they fast? George Bowering. "a workingman shd/ be alone 2499 West 37th Ave., with his mind, Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 whatever that is ." fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca --Paul Blackburn ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 21:50:53 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: clear-cut herb announced the pending release of *clear-cut*, an anthology of seattle-area poets, and mentioned that a website version would also be forthcoming... it is now up, & is worth a visit: http://www.speakeasy.org/clear-cut/ lbd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 12:34:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Yet another SF reading Idiom Presents a reading with Dodie Bellamy and Alicia Wing Tuesday, August 13, 7:30 p.m. at Four Walls Gallery 3160A 16th Street (entrance on Albion) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:35:26 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wystan Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Speed Dear list, this is good. Speed, poets, it not only a matter of rush rush rush though. Vorticists are fast, projectivists are fast. What IS the hurry? What about slow? Is slow also a value? I think I would like someone to put in a good word for slow. Fast poems, slow readings? Does poetry speed up or slow down relative to the culture? TV and movies have been getting faster over the years and what does that have to do with it? There's some question of the general economy also. What thoughts do you have on this tonight, good list people? I am at my post. wystan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 20:49:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Leddy Subject: disgruntled postal workers In-Reply-To: <199608080402.AAA07412@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Re Italian postal service: In their essay "Social Time: The Heartbeat of Culture," Robert Levine and Ellen Wolff report an average time of 47 seconds to sell a single stamp in Rome and Florence. (I came across this essay in a freshman comp anthology.) And re disgruntled postal workers and lit--as of y'day's log, no one had yet mentioned Charles Bukowski's novel _Post Office_. Michael Leddy / Charleston, IL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:00:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: re poetry & speed In-Reply-To: On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, george hartley wrote: > Christina Fairbank's > > > > "Poetry in motion" > > the Indigo Girls? on this list at last! > the speed of cultural transmission (Virginia Woolf, Galileo) > the speed of light in the poetry of the stars at night > Thank you, George, but credit for those poetry & speed posts goes to David Baptiste Chirot who is logged into POETICS via my address - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 03:09:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: re poetry & speed (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1996 18:00:33 -0500 (CDT) From: Christina Fairbank Chirot To: UB Poetics discussion group Cc: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Re: re poetry & speed On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, george hartley wrote: > Christina Fairbank's > > > > "Poetry in motion" > > the Indigo Girls? on this list at last! > the speed of cultural transmission (Virginia Woolf, Galileo) > the speed of light in the poetry of the stars at night > Thank you, George, but credit for those poetry & speed posts goes to David Baptiste Chirot who is logged into POETICS via my address - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 07:47:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Speed In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 9 Aug 1996 19:35:26 GMT+1200 from slowness. there was a thread related to this about 9 months ago. Talent is often a very slow learner. Slow, stubborn, meticulous. Einstein, Cezanne [there are probably better examples]. Stein, Whitman. The slow growth process bumps up against the speed-idols of the avant-garde. The aged turtles often win the race (but it depends on what race you think you're running). America, of course, they say is becoming a nation of aged turtles (I don't know abt New Zealand). In a turtle race, the FAST aged turtle wins. (speaking of which, Herbert Huncke passed away this week, age 81). - from "Turtle Island", Hank "slo-poke" Gould p.s. see Frost's amazing wedding sonnet for his daughter, wish I could remember the lines, about speed - how they will win by standing still, "wing to wing and oar to oar". ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:33:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Slam Stats Hey Maria, I participated in some group performances of Hannah's work at the Church in the late 70s-early 80s. They cry for multi-voice, eh? and each of us (I think Bernadette and Sharon Matlin were involved) were different tones/speeds, mainly using the map of the lines as a score. But Hannah reads as she writes, like a journal, the Real Thing, just get it down. She seems em on yr forehead, she writes em down. Also that amazing journal when she was locked in the doorless room, fasting. Offhand is the best brilliance. She did well at the Slam because she always reads so true and affectless, the crowd was stunned into understanding. We were welcome in her world. In another world there is a monotone, a matter of factness belying the quickcutting synapse-leaping Stein-sinking poetry. BoHo ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:06:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Slam Stats Rod, I don't hae access to my Complete Slam Stats file here, but I'm pretty sure it was spring or fall of 1990. BobH ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 10:01:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Buland al-Haidari In-Reply-To: The Kurdish Iraqi poet Buland al-Haidari died on Tuesday in London where he had been living in exile since 1982. He was 70. Early on a member of the avant-garde group "The Lost Time Group," & one of first f proponents in Arab poetry during the 40ies. A communist sympathizer & political activist he was exiled & fled to Lebanon in 1963. His books include _The Throb of Clay_ (1946), _You came at Dawn_ (1961),_Steps in Exile_ (1965) & ,many more, though only a few have been translated inti English. His last collection, _Alleyways of Exile" was published last week in London. Here is the title poem from the 1968 collection _Journey of the Yellow Letters_, translated by John Mikhail Asfour (in: _When the Words Burn: An Anthology of Modern Arabic Poetry 1945-1987_): JOURNEY OF THE YELLOW LETTERS For a thousand years, children of my poor village we have been the yellowed letters in the Torah and the Qu'ran and the New Testament, the encrusted blade of the chisel carving our frightful shadows in your eyes -- shadows you worshipped in your hearts, shadows that became a history void of men. Each letter swells, and sometimes is a minaret that stands in prayer; a church, sometimes, in the dreary mountains; sometimes black nooses and ropes. In sad villages your streets know them, your sins know them. For a thousand years we have been the yellowed letters in the New Testament and the Totah and the Qur'an, the letters of mould daily manifested in every shameful pregnancy, in idols, in the aoppressor's whip in God, in Satan but not once in a human being. For a thousand years, children of my poor village we have slept the long sleep of history and worshipped our frightful shadows in your eyes (September 1968) ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poetic knowledge...is the knowledge of finitude, Dept. of English | of words and things that happen once and SUNY Albany | once only, measurable but not repeatable, the Albany NY 12222 | intuitions of _nonstatistical_ probabilities tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | that are _creative_, not merely re-creative email: | (or recreational)." -- Don Byrd joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:04:14 -0400 Reply-To: Pierre Joris Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Buland al-Haydari correction: a typoglitch in my note on Buland al-Haydari mangled a line which should have read: "early on a member of the avant-garde group "The Lost Time Group," & one of first proponents of free-verse" Pierre ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poetic knowledge...is the knowledge of finitude, Dept. of English | of words and things that happen once and SUNY Albany | once only, measurable but not repeatable, the Albany NY 12222 | intuitions of _nonstatistical_ probabilities tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | that are _creative_, not merely re-creative email: | (or recreational)." -- Don Byrd joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Speed and Hannah Weiner Hannah Weiner is one of the truly great performers of the time. The best record of this is the New Wilderness Audiographics tape of Hannah reading with Sharon Matlin and Peggy DeKoursey: Hannah reads the roman type (diary voice), and Peggy reads the italics (mostly comments) and Sharon reads the CAPS (give instructions); both italics and Caps are "words seen"for me it's the best realization of polyvocality I know of. James Sherry and I once performed with Hannah and it was interesting to see how exacting her directions for our reading were. She had a very specific pace in mind and also wanted a precise adherence to the text. This is partly because she had an auditory vision of exactly what the text sounded like. (I have a copy of this performance and someday may be able to put it up on the web as a soundfile!) Hannah is also featured on the Live at the Ear CD and you can get some sense of her speed reading from that. Hannah always said to me she couldn't stand slow readers at poetry readings and that applied to virtually all readings by fiction writers. In her earlier work she would fill the page up without any space or margin partly to transmit the electric sense of speed that pulses through the writing. White space was a vacuum that she abhorred or sucked up. I have a bibliography of Weiner books, mss and reviews that I did in 1990 and have today updated; I will try to bring to put it up on the EPC as soon as I can. I will also send a version out to Poetics now. There are a couple of queries in that and no doubt some errors; any help appreciated. *** As I think I probably mention on the list before, I wrote "Introjective Verse" (now out in the new CHAIN) in response to the editors (Pierre Alferi and Olivier Cadiot) of a French magazine "Revue Generale de Litterature" wanting a piece on Olson's "Projective Verse" for an issue they were doing on "speed". I wanted to do something on slowing down, along the line Wystan suggests in his post. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 13:43:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Hannah Weiner bibliography HANNAH WEINER:=20 MS/Book Chronology 1966 Magritte Poems (Sacramento: Poetry Newsletter, 1970). 11pp. Nonclairvoyantly written, short poems. 1968 The Code Poems (Barrytown: Open Studio, 1982). 29pp. 1970 The Fast. 50pp ms. Sections published in Acts #4, United Artists #14, and Blue Smoke #1 (in that order); (New York: United Artists, 1992). 1971 Country Girl. 18pp ms. Descriptive journal about seeing auras. 1972 Pictures and Early Words. app. 69pp. -- untyped. Seeing pictures and early versions of seen words. 1973 The 1973 Journal. app. 200pp ms; short segment in This # 7. Has caps and quoted words for words seen. 1974 Clairvoyant Journal. 180pp ms. About one-third published in Angel Hair edition, 64 pp. (1978: Lenox, Mass). Other sections in up to two dozen magazines, and in Sun June 9, 5 pp. (Providence: Diana's Bimonthly, 1975). Audiocasette from New Wilderness Audiogrpahics (wth Peggy DeCoursey and Sharon Matlin), c. 1976 (New Wilderness taped the whole Journal and published March and April. Videotape (1974 solo reading): New York: Internmedia Foundation, 1985. 1976 Little Girl Books. Four small notebooks. 1977-80 Little Books/Indians (New York: Roof Books, 1980). 91pp. 1980 Nijole's House (Needham, Mass.: Potes & Poets Press, 1981). = 24pp. 1981 Spoke (College Park, MD: Sun & Moon Press, 1984). 115pp. 1982 Sixteen (Windsor, VT: Awede Press, 1983). 16pp. 1984 Written In/The Zero One (Victoria, Australia: Post Neo, 1985). 21pp. 1986 Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoxial, 1990). 50pp. Published with= audiocasette. 1988 Abazoo. 13pp ms. 1989 Seen Words with It. 20 ms.=20 1989 The Book of Revelations. 106 shaped pages in notebook. 1989-91 Silent Teachers / Remembered Sequel (Providence: Tender Buttons,= 1993) 1992- Visions and Silent Musicians. Ms in progress. 1993-4. We Speak Silent. 89pp ms.=20 ESSAYS "Criticism of My Hannah Fool", Margins 21/22 (1975). "Capitalist Useless Phrases after Endless", The L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3D= E Book, ed. Bruce Andrews & Charles Bernstein (Carbondale: Southern Illinois University Press, 1984). "Skies III from This 11 and quote the page", The Difficulties, Ron Silliman issue (1985). "Mostly about the Sentence", Jimmy and Lucy's House of "K" 7 (1986). "Excerpts from an Interview with Hannah Weiner" by Charles Bernstein, The Line in Postmodern Poetry, ed. Robert Frank and Henry Sayre (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1988). "Research important conflict two obedient", Writing 25 (1990). "Meaning bus Halifax to Queensbury", Patterns/Contexts/Time, ed. Phillip Foss & Charles Bernstein (Sante Fe: Tyuonyi 1990). "If Workshop", Poetry Project Newsletter, February-March 1990. "Dear Andrew letter peyote, `Dark Ages Clasp the Daisy Root'. "Two Works", Writing 27 (1992) "Ubliminal" [part 1], Chain 2 (1995) "Ubliminal", [part 2], big allis #7(1996) "Plus Title", Central Park #19/20 (1991) "Blank Verse: A Decidedly Highpoint in the History of English Prosody" REVIEWS/CRITICISM Dick Higgins, Sun June 9, Margins 21/22 (1975). Sharon Mattlin, Clairvoyant Journal, Poetry Showcase at CPGB (1975) Charles Bernstein, "Making Words Visible" [on The Clairvoyant Journal, L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE 5 (1978); rpt. The L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU= =3DA=3DG=3DE Book and Content's Dream (Los Angeles: Sun & Moon, 1986). Sharon Mattlin, Clairvoyant Journal, Poetry Project Newsletter, May/June= 1979. Tina Darragh, "Virgin", L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE 11 (1980). Tim Dlugos, "Perfectly Clairvoyant", Little Books/Indians, The SoHo News, December 30, 1980. Barbara Barg, Little Books/Indians, Poetry Project Newsletter, May 1981. Ron Silliman, Little Books/Indians and Nijole's House, Sulfur 5 (1982), rpt. The New Sentence (New York: Roof, 1987). Jeff Wright, Code Poems, East Village Eye, April 1983. John Perreault, Code Poems, Poetry Project Newsletter, May/June 1983. Jackson Mac Low, Sixteen & The Code Poems, Poetics Journal 4 (1984). Tony Green, Code Poems and Sixteen, Splash 2 (Auckland, New Zealand: 1984). Arlene Stone, "Poets in the Combat Zone", Code Poems, Contact II 36/37= (1985). Dennis Barone, "Large Poetic Concerns", Spoke, Contact II 38/39/40 (1985). Paul Green, Spoke, Reality Studios 7 (London: 1985). Sherry Quart, Written In/The Zero One, UCSD's Archive Newsletter, Spring= 1987. Joseph Keppler, "Four by Three", Sixteen & Spoke, Gargoyle 32/33 (1987). Kathleen Fraser, "Line. On the Line. Lining up. Lined with. Between the Lines. Bottom Line.", The Line in Postmodern Poetry, ed. Robert Frank and Herny Sayre (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1988). Charles Bernstein, "Weak Links", preface to Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoial,= 1990) Johanna Drucker, The Fast. Poetry Project Newsletter Oct/Nov 1992 Mark Wallace, Silent Teachers/Remembered Sequel, Taproot #5 (1994) Juliana Spahr, "Composition as Explanation", presented at MLA Annual Convention (1993) ??: "Blank Verse: A Decidedly High Point in the History of English Prosody": offprint exists w/o source information Paul Green, review of several books =97 published in UK 1990s =97compiled by Charles Bernstein, 1989, updated, 1996; send corrections or additions to bernstei@acsu.buffalo.edu. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:32:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: poetry and speed In-Reply-To: <199608090403.AAA05739@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> One of those old Cademon LP recordings of Eliot reading "The Hollow Men," played at 78 rpm. 45 isn't fast enough. t. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 14:36:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail Can anyone who knows backchannel me with Juliana Spahr's new e-mail address? She sent it around on a card a week or two ago, but I can't seem to find the information. Thanks. Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 11:47:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Conventional Wisdom This is Dodie Bellamy. Kevin and I will be correspondants for the Conventional Wisdom webpage, a conceptual art project designed by Margaret Crane and Jon Winet. Following is a call for submissions for the "From Our Viewers" section of the site. >We are writing to see if you'd be interested in being part of the >project we're working on during the Republican and Democratic >Conventions. It's a website - Conventional Wisdom - >that will be published in real time during the festivities > >The site resembles a newspaper front page and will contain a >changing series of images from the conventions and writing from >around the country. We'd like to invite you contribute to the "From >Our Viewers" section of the site. This area will contain a series of >short comments, insights and reactions to the conventions (and the >surrounding political and social climate). > >The site will be running during August 12-15 for the Republican >National Convention in San Diego and August 26-28 for the >Democratic National Convention in Chicago. We welcome your >contributions during that time. > >Comments can be sent directly to the site via email. Please post to: >conwis@parc.xerox.com >indicate "Comments" in the subject area. > >The URL/address for the site is: >http://www.pair.xerox.com/cw > >FYI: > >The complete version of Conventional Wisdom is best viewed using a >JAVA compatible browser. In this version, writing and images will >change automatically throughout the day. If you're on a PC using >Netscape 2.0, you'll be able access this version. > >There will also be a static version for computers/browsers that will >not run JAVA. Unfortunately, this includes many Macintoshes. This >version can be accessed through the same URL/address. > >We're looking forward to hearing from you. > >Best Regards >Margaret Crane, Jon Winet > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 20:27:23 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charlie King Subject: Re: Introduction of Charlie King > Hi, > I'm new on the list. My name is Charlie King, I'm 25 years old and live > in South Africa. I subscribed to this list because poetry seems to be a > "neverending attachment to oblivion";-) and I can't get enough of it. > Right at this moment I don't quite know what it is this list is about but > I trust that with a little help from the current subscribed, I will learn. > Yours, > Charlie King > ------------------------------------- > Name: Charlie King > E-mail: acapa@icon.co.za > Date: 07/08/96 > Time: 07:53:54 PM > > > This message was sent by Chameleon > ------------------------------------- > > -----------------End of Original Message----------------- ------------------------------------- Name: E-mail: acapa@icon.co.za Date: 09/08/96 Time: 08:27:23 PM This message was sent by Chameleon ------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1996 15:20:53 -0400 Reply-To: Joseph Lease Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: changing In-Reply-To: <199608071853.NAA16355@freedom.mtn.org> RE: poetics discussion It would interest me to start a low-key discussion concerning a range of postmodern poetics evoked by but not limited to the work of such poets as John Yau, Fanny Howe, David Shapiro, Susan Howe--with reference also to Amiri Baraka, Robert Creeley, Adrienne Rich-- I'm just wondering if there's a forum for articulating and sharing concerns with lyric practice that cut across so called party lines and (obviously) share a variety of kinds of concern with poetic experimentation and politcal and cultural opposition--and--if such a phrase doesn't seem so neutral--aesthetic and political thought-- so-- All Best, Joseph Lease- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 10:58:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Kuszai Subject: New Books from Meow Press Hi everybody, before we begin our (pause) "infomerical" (laughter from audience) I'd like to take this moment to think back to Orono, you know, Orono. I want to thank Orono for Melvin Tolson, whom I've found in the Buffalo Public Library. Funny to think that you can't check out a book of poetry in buffalo, most poetry existing behind closed stacks. The same is true for music library too--and the ERie/County-Buffalo public main branch has a great music section, a mix of 20th sentry music (probably lingering from the good ol' days at the philharmonic (John Tesh coming this year, Doc Severinson's holidy opus+)and an interesting selection of music from around the world--both traditional and contemporary. They let you check out 10 cds for a week and I'm gettin a real education in music this way. Anyway, it is okay to have books stored away for safety, for some future researcher, I suppose. Like music, you have to make the books you need to read. On that note, some books are finally available from Meow Press, which is 3years old this month. More books on the way include: Aaron Shurin, CODEX (with in-laid color reproductions), Stephen Ratcliffe, SENTENCE, Noemie Maxwell, THRUM, Charles Alexander, FOUR NINETY EIGHT TO SEVEN, Jorge Guitart, FILM BLANC, Denise Newman, OF LATER THINGS YET TO COME, Deanna Ferguson, ROUGH BUSH, David Carl, THE LIBRARY, and more (I don't have the list with me). Catalogs are available by mail: send queries backchannel to me. Now Available from Meow Press Michael Basinski, Hee-Bee Jeebies 7x6.5" 24pg. $5.00 Natalee Caple, The Price of Acorn 6.5x4.5" 36pg. $6.00 Wendy Kramer, Patinas 8.5x7" 20pg. $5.00 Hank Lazer, The Early Days of the Lang Dynasty 6.5x6" 36pg. $6.00 Jena Osman, Jury 6.5x4.5" 28pg. $5.00 Meredith Quartermain, Terms of Sale 8.5x7" 48pg. $6.00 Lisa Robertson, The Descent 8.5x7" 24pg. $5.00 Lisa Samuels, Letters 7x6.5" 24pg. $5.00 Gary Sullivan, Dead Man 6.5x5" 32pg. $6.00 Sullivan & Caple are prose. The whole set of 9 books is available right now for $40 for poetics-fans. Call today! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:34:13 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Arthur Craven In-Reply-To: <960717213529_436537557@emout14.mail.aol.com> Does anyone have info on works about Craven? gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:36:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Craven? >Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 11:34:13 -1000 >From: Gabrielle Welford >Subject: Arthur Craven > >Does anyone have info on works about Craven? gab. no. but: you might look in the index of John Shoptaw's book about Ashbery--I recall that there are some remarks about Ashbery's Craven poem in DDOS--and I think a footnote or two that might be of some use. btw what do others make of the Shoptaw book? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:42:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: poetry in motion Re: "Poetry in Motion" Actually the song stuck relentlessly in mind was by Johnny Tillotson, in 1960, on the Cadence label. Two years before "The Loco-Motion" by Little Eva on Dimension. From Poetry on Cadence to Loco on Dimension--- In the immortal words of Bo Diddley: When you're in the groove You really got to move --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 22:27:49 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: Speed Perhaps one should have david eggleton & melville (clarel) reading at the same time. they are fairly silly examples. on the page, i am in favour of slow, i like words to come out about the speed that i think. Talking is pretty fast at the moment & poetry provides a greatly needed contrast. I've been rereading long poems recently (for a project): the maximus papers, patterson, homer they have a certain ponderousness which is part of their reading pleasure. Aloud speed can have advantages but (if you'll excuse a sport analogy) is more like boxing than sailing. Comes down to the mood i guess. Sunday nights a slow poetry night. Sleeping soon, Dan At 07:35 PM 8/9/96 GMT+1200, you wrote: >Dear list, > this is good. Speed, poets, it not only a matter of rush >rush rush though. Vorticists are fast, projectivists are fast. What >IS the hurry? What about slow? Is slow also a value? I think I would >like someone to put in a good word for slow. Fast poems, slow readings? >Does poetry speed up or slow down relative to the culture? TV and movies >have been getting faster over the years and what does that have to do >with it? There's some question of the general economy also. What >thoughts do you have on this tonight, good list people? I am at my post. > wystan > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:31:16 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: Speed "there is more to life than increasing its speed" --e.f. schumacher (on efficiency) lbd ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:10:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner bibliography Thanks for passing on the great Weiner bibliography Charles. Members of the Poetics List can now get copies of one of Hannah's best works, SPOKE, for $4.00. Order through our website or directly through my E-mail address.=20 The website (just a reminder) is http//:www.sunmoon.com. My E-mail at Sun & Moon is djmess@sunmoon.com. Sun & Moon will be making new offers for several new titles and older ones this next week. Douglas Messerli At 01:43 PM 8/9/96 -0400, you wrote: >HANNAH WEINER:=20 > >MS/Book Chronology > >1966 Magritte Poems (Sacramento: Poetry Newsletter, 1970). 11pp. >Nonclairvoyantly written, short poems. > >1968 The Code Poems (Barrytown: Open Studio, 1982). 29pp. > >1970 The Fast. 50pp ms. Sections published in Acts #4, United Artists= #14, >and Blue Smoke #1 (in that order); (New York: United Artists, 1992). > >1971 Country Girl. 18pp ms. Descriptive journal about seeing auras. > >1972 Pictures and Early Words. app. 69pp. -- untyped. Seeing pictures= and >early versions of seen words. > >1973 The 1973 Journal. app. 200pp ms; short segment in This # 7. Has= caps >and quoted words for words seen. > >1974 Clairvoyant Journal. 180pp ms. About one-third published in Angel >Hair edition, 64 pp. (1978: Lenox, Mass). Other sections in up to two >dozen magazines, and in Sun June 9, 5 pp. (Providence: Diana's Bimonthly, >1975). Audiocasette from New Wilderness Audiogrpahics (wth Peggy= DeCoursey >and Sharon Matlin), c. 1976 (New Wilderness taped the whole Journal and >published March and April. Videotape (1974 solo reading): New York: >Internmedia Foundation, 1985. > >1976 Little Girl Books. Four small notebooks. > >1977-80 Little Books/Indians (New York: Roof Books, 1980). 91pp. > >1980 Nijole's House (Needham, Mass.: Potes & Poets Press, 1981). = 24pp. > >1981 Spoke (College Park, MD: Sun & Moon Press, 1984). 115pp. > >1982 Sixteen (Windsor, VT: Awede Press, 1983). 16pp. > >1984 Written In/The Zero One (Victoria, Australia: Post Neo, 1985). = 21pp. > >1986 Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoxial, 1990). 50pp. Published with= audiocasette. > >1988 Abazoo. 13pp ms. > >1989 Seen Words with It. 20 ms.=20 > >1989 The Book of Revelations. 106 shaped pages in notebook. > >1989-91 Silent Teachers / Remembered Sequel (Providence: Tender Buttons,= 1993) > >1992- Visions and Silent Musicians. Ms in progress. > >1993-4. We Speak Silent. 89pp ms.=20 > >ESSAYS >"Criticism of My Hannah Fool", Margins 21/22 (1975). >"Capitalist Useless Phrases after Endless", The L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG= =3DE Book, ed. >Bruce Andrews & Charles Bernstein (Carbondale: Southern Illinois University >Press, 1984). >"Skies III from This 11 and quote the page", The Difficulties, Ron= Silliman >issue (1985). >"Mostly about the Sentence", Jimmy and Lucy's House of "K" 7 (1986). >"Excerpts from an Interview with Hannah Weiner" by Charles Bernstein, The >Line in Postmodern Poetry, ed. Robert Frank and Henry Sayre (Urbana: >University of Illinois Press, 1988). >"Research important conflict two obedient", Writing 25 (1990). >"Meaning bus Halifax to Queensbury", Patterns/Contexts/Time, ed. Phillip >Foss & Charles Bernstein (Sante Fe: Tyuonyi 1990). >"If Workshop", Poetry Project Newsletter, February-March 1990. >"Dear Andrew letter peyote, `Dark Ages Clasp the Daisy Root'. >"Two Works", Writing 27 (1992) >"Ubliminal" [part 1], Chain 2 (1995) >"Ubliminal", [part 2], big allis #7(1996) >"Plus Title", Central Park #19/20 (1991) >"Blank Verse: A Decidedly Highpoint in the History of English Prosody" > >REVIEWS/CRITICISM >Dick Higgins, Sun June 9, Margins 21/22 (1975). >Sharon Mattlin, Clairvoyant Journal, Poetry Showcase at CPGB (1975) >Charles Bernstein, "Making Words Visible" [on The Clairvoyant Journal, >L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE 5 (1978); rpt. The L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU= =3DA=3DG=3DE Book and >Content's Dream (Los Angeles: Sun & Moon, 1986). >Sharon Mattlin, Clairvoyant Journal, Poetry Project Newsletter, May/June= 1979. >Tina Darragh, "Virgin", L=3DA=3DN=3DG=3DU=3DA=3DG=3DE 11 (1980). >Tim Dlugos, "Perfectly Clairvoyant", Little Books/Indians, The SoHo News, >December 30, 1980. >Barbara Barg, Little Books/Indians, Poetry Project Newsletter, May 1981. >Ron Silliman, Little Books/Indians and Nijole's House, Sulfur 5 (1982), >rpt. The New Sentence (New York: Roof, 1987). >Jeff Wright, Code Poems, East Village Eye, April 1983. >John Perreault, Code Poems, Poetry Project Newsletter, May/June 1983. >Jackson Mac Low, Sixteen & The Code Poems, Poetics Journal 4 (1984). >Tony Green, Code Poems and Sixteen, Splash 2 (Auckland, New Zealand: 1984). >Arlene Stone, "Poets in the Combat Zone", Code Poems, Contact II 36/37= (1985). >Dennis Barone, "Large Poetic Concerns", Spoke, Contact II 38/39/40 (1985). >Paul Green, Spoke, Reality Studios 7 (London: 1985). >Sherry Quart, Written In/The Zero One, UCSD's Archive Newsletter, Spring= 1987. >Joseph Keppler, "Four by Three", Sixteen & Spoke, Gargoyle 32/33 (1987). >Kathleen Fraser, "Line. On the Line. Lining up. Lined with. Between the >Lines. Bottom Line.", The Line in Postmodern Poetry, ed. Robert Frank and >Herny Sayre (Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1988). >Charles Bernstein, "Weak Links", preface to Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoial,= 1990) >Johanna Drucker, The Fast. Poetry Project Newsletter Oct/Nov 1992 >Mark Wallace, Silent Teachers/Remembered Sequel, Taproot #5 (1994) >Juliana Spahr, "Composition as Explanation", presented at MLA Annual >Convention (1993) > >??: >"Blank Verse: A Decidedly High Point in the History of English Prosody": >offprint exists w/o source information >Paul Green, review of several books =97 published in UK 1990s > >=97compiled by Charles Bernstein, 1989, updated, 1996; send corrections or >additions to bernstei@acsu.buffalo.edu. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:27:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: My Home Pages A while ago Mark Wallace mentioned my essay "Frame Lock". With the permission of Jerry McGuire, editor of College Literature, which published the essay in 1994, I have now put it up on the EPC: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/bernstein In June I also put up some "HTML" poems I have been working on, and you can find these at my home page as well, with links to Kenny Goldsmith terrific ongoing anthology of visual poetry. My idea for these works was to create viusal texts that came out working within my word processing program, so that the "visuality" was less pictoral and more a byproduct of the means availalbe in this medium to visually represent language (and in this way related to my other visual texts, such as "Veil" and "Language of Boquets" that Kenny has samples on his site). I have also put up the syllabus for my Fall graduate seminar on the Poetics of Translation. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hannah Weiner's SPOKE is the longest work of hers published and one of the best: a good introduction and a must for those interested in Weiner's work: get them while they last @$4 from Sun & Moon (djmess@sunmoon.com).. [--How's that for an example of my conventionally evaluative prose that apparently contradicts my advocacy of a destablizing polyvocality of language, a point Bob Perelman makes in his new book, just out form Princeton, The Marginalization of Poetry. Let me be perfectly clear, let me aver any equivocation on this point: buy that one too and don't waste a minute getting to it, or not more than a minute, well maybe till Labor Day, but not longer that, or not too much longer ....: now let me translate: let me be efectlky celard don;t wasted a monet the suns' sup and the sky is a limnit of what you thinkg it might be some support out small and enven medium sixed presses and even the ups th eUPS, when they publsiher thingsd lik tyhis] ++++++=============================+++++++++============= JUST OUT: Bruce Andrews' Pardadise & Method: Poetics & Praxis, his collected essays going back over 20 years, from Northwestern University Press. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 06:51:31 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: Craven? In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960810213806.3a9f17f8@mail.azstarnet.com> Regarding Arthur Cravan, I haven't gotten that far in the book yet, but it seems that Carolyn Burke's bio of Mina Loy has a fair amount of info about the boxer-poet Cravan, who was her second husband. Also, for some reason I have always thought (don't know from whence this information is derived) that Cravan was supposed to be the model for the hero of Gide's Caves du Vatican (Lafcadio's Adventures). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:17:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tristan D. Saldana" Subject: Re: Speed In-Reply-To: <3690DF72B18@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, wystan wrote: > Does poetry speed up or slow down relative to the culture? TV and movies > have been getting faster over the years and what does that have to do > with it? Good language is always good at getting us to expand our sense of the present, our presence. The media seems to be inhumanely good at eliminating the present, and (once again) our presence. A virtue I have found in paying attention to language is that it puts me in a comfortable relationship to time . . . enables evaluativeness. Not (an)esthetic, but an esthetic sedation that helps the 'bash' of the high-threshold lows created by the "blunting of the senses" that need hourly gratification as Wordsworth says. The world is too much with us, indeed. I just heard some great lyrics today by a pretty good poet and not half bad drummer on this subject . . . how humans, today, live in dog years: "I'd rather be a tortoise from Galapagos or a span of geological time . . ." Tristan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 23:36:05 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Conventional Wisdom According to the gods at the Poetics list this message was already distributed--but I never received it. Am I being gas-lighted here? Or did it fall through the cracks of the massive power-outage that happened this weekend here on the West Coast? Anyway, here it is again. If everybody but me already received this, my apologies: This is Dodie Bellamy. Kevin and I will be correspondants for the Conventional Wisdom webpage, a conceptual art project designed by Margaret Crane and Jon Winet. Following is a call for submissions for the "From Our Viewers" section of the site. >We are writing to see if you'd be interested in being part of the >project we're working on during the Republican and Democratic >Conventions. It's a website - Conventional Wisdom - >that will be published in real time during the festivities > >The site resembles a newspaper front page and will contain a >changing series of images from the conventions and writing from >around the country. We'd like to invite you contribute to the "From >Our Viewers" section of the site. This area will contain a series of >short comments, insights and reactions to the conventions (and the >surrounding political and social climate). > >The site will be running during August 12-15 for the Republican >National Convention in San Diego and August 26-28 for the >Democratic National Convention in Chicago. We welcome your >contributions during that time. > >Comments can be sent directly to the site via email. Please post to: >conwis@parc.xerox.com >indicate "Comments" in the subject area. > >The URL/address for the site is: >http://www.pair.xerox.com/cw > >FYI: > >The complete version of Conventional Wisdom is best viewed using a >JAVA compatible browser. In this version, writing and images will >change automatically throughout the day. If you're on a PC using >Netscape 2.0, you'll be able access this version. > >There will also be a static version for computers/browsers that will >not run JAVA. Unfortunately, this includes many Macintoshes. This >version can be accessed through the same URL/address. > >We're looking forward to hearing from you. > >Best Regards >Margaret Crane, Jon Winet > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:40:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Williams house to be sold Friends & colleagues: The NJ section of the NY Times, 8/11/96, reports that WCW's home is for sale. "Located at 9 Ridge Road in Rutherford. Built more than 100 years ago. Listed on the NJ and National Registers of Historic Places. Contains medical office, examining rooms and residence. WCW's son, Dr. William Eric Williams, continued the pediatric medical practice until he died about a year ago. His widow and daughter are the sellers." Asking price $330,000 Annual property taxes $7,806 Listed with ERA Justin Realty, Rutherford, NJ --Al Filreis --University of Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:33:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail yeah me too; i never got one of those postcards, maybe she sent it to the cape, anyway i did n't gt it and have been trying to send stuff. xo, md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Can anyone who knows backchannel me with Juliana Spahr's new e-mail > address? She sent it around on a card a week or two ago, but I can't seem > to find the information. > > Thanks. > > Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:34:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Speed on slowness, thich nhat hanh: paraphrased. the more we have to do, the busier we are, the slower we shd go. btw: what is a "groove," and how does one get in it; once in it; how shd one "move?" md In message <3690DF72B18@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Dear list, > this is good. Speed, poets, it not only a matter of rush > rush rush though. Vorticists are fast, projectivists are fast. What > IS the hurry? What about slow? Is slow also a value? I think I would > like someone to put in a good word for slow. Fast poems, slow readings? > Does poetry speed up or slow down relative to the culture? TV and movies > have been getting faster over the years and what does that have to do > with it? There's some question of the general economy also. What > thoughts do you have on this tonight, good list people? I am at my post. > wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:04:52 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: lost in the supermarket Tristan, There is no present. A present is so close it seems obtainable but when it comes down to the gritty, just far enough of a length to have some downtime between interstices. Hence the reliance on endings, as if the history of circadian rhythms were a false premise because some whiteguy made a newfangled discovery. Throw it all away. Talk about speed, in the suburbs where to renounce speed through the act of walking (one which I might add furthers the connection with the present) is to conflict with the classist version of interior space, one where the landscape is not to be littered with such apparitions of outsiders, the marginalized, the crazy, the children walking to the supermarket. In similitude, the affliction of the lyric is sold to us as a renunciation of speed, that scenes of an uncertain action of disjunction should be upheld to create a violence on the eye of a potential reader whose distance is a recess. The multimedia elimination of the present (& prescence) is no different in vacuity than the false asssumption that we can fully appropriate an experience of the other, just because of the great textual I am. In terms of a post-modern syndoche, the ghost of a part confronts us, while the compared whole, or solid core, has dissappeared. CB: Weiner has a healthy section of work in the new 6ix, including an essay by Marc DuCharme. Be well. David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:39:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: ubvm.cc.bfuualo.edu: host not found) >Return-Path: >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:34:43 -0700 (PDT) >From: Mail Delivery Subsystem >Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: ubvm.cc.bfuualo.edu: host not found) >To: >Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) > >The original message was received at Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT) >from ppp74.cinenet.net [198.147.81.74] > > ----- The following addresses have delivery notifications ----- > (unrecoverable error) > > ----- Transcript of session follows ----- >550 ... Host unknown (Name server: ubvm.cc.bfuualo.edu: host not found) > > ----- Original message follows ----- > >Return-Path: >Received: from ppp74.cinenet.net by hollywood.cinenet.net with SMTP (8.7.3/25-eef) > id JAA23676; Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT) >Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 09:34:40 -0700 (PDT) >Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19960812081042.1d9f2d8e@cinenet.net> >X-Sender: djmess@cinenet.net (Unverified) >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >To: ower-poetics@UBVM.CC.BFUUALO.EDU >From: Douglas Messerli >Subject: New offers from Sun & Moon Press > >SPECIAL OFFERS TO THE POETICS LIST > >Sun & Moon Press has several new books, which we offering >for sale to people on the Poetics List for a 20% discount. >These include: > >Rene Crevel's great surrealist novel BABYLON >Paperback, $12.95 > >CREDENCE, by Dennis Phillips. The most recent collection >of poetry by this important Los Angeles-based writer. >Paper, $10.95 > >WHERE HEAT LOOMS, by Andre du Bouchet, translated by >David Mus. One of the most signficant--and the last living-- >of the great French modernist poets. This book represents >the first of several du Bouchet translations that will be >published by Sun & Moon. Paper, $12.95 > >THE BLAZING LIGHTS OF THE SUN, by Rosita Copioli. An im- >portant contemporary woman Italian poet, translated >by Renata Treitel. Paper, $11.95 > >JUDE THE OBSCURE, Thomas Hardy. Yes, you heard right, >The great classic appears on the Sun & Moon label, reprinted >from the first American edition of 1896. Paper, $12.95 > >GHOST IMAGE, by Herve Guibert. Michel Foucault's purported >lover, died of AIDS in 1991. These are essays on photographer, >beautifully written and very moving. Paper $13.95 > >WHAT BECAME WORDS, by Claes Andersson. A major Finnish poet-- >and head of Finnish culture at the moment. Paper $11.95 > >===================== > >We are also offering amazingly low prices on the following >backlist titles: > >As long as you order at least 2 books, you can purchase >these for $4.00 each. > > >SPOKE, by Hannah Weiner. Paper $7.95 > >THE YELLOW FLOOR: POEMS 1978-1983 by Gil Ott. Paper, $6.95 > >POEMS, by Nick Piombino. Paper $8.95 > >ARENA, by Dennis Phillips. Paper $10.95 > >A WORLD, by Dennis Phillips. Paper $9.95 > >MAXIMS FROM MY MOTHER'S MILK/HYMNS TO HIM, Douglas >Messerli Paper $8.95 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 13:59:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail Dear Maria and Mark, Juliana Spahr 182 Elm St. Upper Albany NY 12202 598-9369 jms@acmenet.net Walter K. Lew 8 Old Colony Rd. Old Saybrook, CT 06475 ph/fax: 860-388-4601 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:12:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: go fast or go slow It seems to me that there's not any inherent value per se in a poetry that goes fast or a poetry that goes slow--statements like "I like it fast" or "I like it slow" may tell us something about the taste of the authors in question regarding the aesthetics of poetry or whatever else, but in fact they tell us little more than that. The issue seems to me rather how a certain "fast" or "slow" dynamic in various social contexts pertains to those contexts and not simply to the dynamic of the writer him or her self. Marinetti's interest in speed has to do with his ideology of the machine; differently, the laconic nature of, say, Robert Frost, has something to do with his rejection of modernist investments in the machine, in favor of (equally problematic to me) a staunch restatement of the condition and value of certain traditional moral stances in the face of change--neither of these are meant as total descriptions of their authors. I'm tempted to make a case for Hannah Weiner's speed, and her assault on white space as pertaining to the way her work seems to argue that "blank space is already written on," that is, far from representing some existential silence, white space in her work is that place where ideology is in charge of us; her ability to write against that white space seems almost like a "talking back to" or "talking through and with" a set of voices that might otherwise overwhelm her by forcing her to be silent. But that's just what I'm thinking today. mark wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun | | to go to extremes" | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:12:32 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: Pavement Saw brief sale I am moving this upcoming weekend, so we are selling two of our titles cheap over a cellanoid medium rather than carry as many of the physical objects. Information below. Pick from Chris Stroffolino's _Oops_ or Joshua McKinney's _Permutations of the Gallery_ for only *five dollars*. Backchannel me with your home address and title you are interested in by this Thursday, August 15th. Pay when received. Be well dave.baratier@mosby.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pavement Saw Press winner of the 1995-1996 chapbook award: Permutations of the Gallery by Joshua McKinney Poems from this collection first appeared in publications such as the Columbia Poetry Review, Denver Quarterly, Situation, Santa Barbara Review, and Willow Springs. Publication, a prize of five hundred dollars and ten percent of the book run are awarded to the winner of the annual prize. *Permutations of the Gallery* was selected by Naton Leslie as the 1996 winner of the Pavement Saw Poetry Chapbook Award. About the book: Permutations of the Gallery is an ambitious collection, even if recklessly so. Joshua McKinney's poems struggle against the confines of syntax and literal sense, in order to arrive at a uniquely clear grasp of the truces we must maintain with time and spacial existence. To attempt to paraphrase these knotty and paradoxical poems would be akin to stating that Wallace Stevens wrote about the weather. Don't search for narrative threads here, poems about Queen Anne's Lace or cicadas, or paeans for our humdrum, domestic lives. And don't expect to read this book once. Naton Leslie Joshua McKinney knows that philosophy is not an abstract matter, nor in anyway separate from our everyday lives. His poems show that to engage the world intimately, we need to _think_ it in the most particular ways. In *Permutations of the Gallery* family friends, nature, and a troubling social world are not givens, but rather questions by which we explore the twisting, disruptive, estatic, sometimes even annihilating terms of our existence. Mark Wallace A poetry held taut, that revels in economy and clarity, is filled with insights and syntactical compassion. I highly recommend *Permutations of the Gallery*. Simon Perchik Published in a limited edition of 250 copies, perfect bound, 6 by 9 size ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Pavement Saw Press Oops by Chris Stroffolino "Oops stoops over everything and bows to nothing but a longing to believe that somehow, somewhere something will change. Each poem is involved in a continuous monologue that would be a dialogue if it wasn't a poem. Wat gies is what is felt and what is dealt with to feel." Pam Rehm Features poems which have appeared in Sulfur, Talisman, Lingo, TO, Caliban, New American Writing, American Letters & Commentary and others. 64 pages, perfect bound in attractive purple cover with smiling picture of the author on the back. The book is $6.95 including postage and handling. Checks made out to Pavement Saw Press / 7 James Street / Scotia, NY 12302 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 14:30:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: go fast or go slow Comments: To: Mark Wallace In-Reply-To: On Mon, 12 Aug 1996, Mark Wallace wrote: > It seems to me that there's not any inherent value per se in a poetry > that goes fast or a poetry that goes slow--statements like "I like it > fast" or "I like it slow" may tell us something about the taste of the > authors in question regarding the aesthetics of poetry or whatever else, > but in fact they tell us little more than that. The issue seems to me > rather how a certain "fast" or "slow" dynamic in various social contexts > pertains to those contexts and not simply to the dynamic of the writer > him or her self. Marinetti's interest in speed has to do with his > ideology of the machine; differently, the laconic nature of, say, Robert > Frost, has something to do with his rejection of modernist investments in > the machine, in favor of (equally problematic to me) a staunch > restatement of the condition and value of certain traditional moral > stances in the face of change--neither of these are meant as total > descriptions of their authors. > I'm tempted to make a case for Hannah Weiner's speed, and her > assault on white > space as pertaining to the way her work seems to argue that "blank space > is already written on," that is, far from representing some existential > silence, white space in her work is that place where ideology is in > charge of us; her ability to write against that white space seems almost > like a "talking back to" or "talking through and with" a set of voices > that might otherwise overwhelm her by forcing her to be silent. But that's > just what I'm thinking today. > > mark wallace > > /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ > | | > | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun | > | to go to extremes" | > | GWU: | > | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | > | EPC: | > | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | > |____________________________________________________________________________| > I really like the point here--the Frost/Weiner contrast works brilliantly--and the matrix shifts as well when one thinks of, for example, Blake's anti-industrialism and the different kinds of poetics that his work suggests-- question--though-- where would Pound's anti-industrialism fit in here-- All Best, Joseph Lease ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:00:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Roberts Subject: Re: go fast or go slow See also S. Kern's study of the Culture of Time and Space, a brilliant study of modernism in terms of late nineteenth century revolutions in transportation and communications technology. See also R. Poggioli's comments on "activist" mode of experimental writing in the classic Theory of the Avant-Garde. See also various Ashbery poems like The School of Velocity and The Art of Speed. That's all I have time and room for now. Gary Roberts ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 15:13:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: G7 Internet policy Something of possible interest to the lis -- Pierre G7 NATIONS PROPOSE RESTRICTIONS ON INTERNET COMMUNICATIONS HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH WARY OF OUTCOME OF TERRORISM CONFERENCE At a meeting to discuss terrorism on 30 July in Paris, France the G7 group of nations "endorsed a number of restrictions and controls on the Internet," reports Human Rights Watch (HRW). HRW is part of two coalitions deploring "threats by the G7 to restrict free speech and privacy rights." According to one coalition, composed mainly of international divisions of the Electronic Frontier Foundation and HRW, "The G7 (United States of America, Canada, Great Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Japan) called for "the prohibition or censorship of sources that may contain `dangerous' information, restrictions on the electronic speech of unpopular political organisations, and the imposition of `key escrow' or other means of allowing governments to violate privately encrypted correspondence." The latest action, which HRW and its partners call "anti-terrorist hysteria," springs from recent events in the US such as the Olympic bombing and the Trans World Airlines (TWA) crash. It is "another case in a long list of attempts to restrict freedom of speech in electronic networks, of which there are alarming examples in many countries including Australia, Belgium, China, France, Germany, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, the USA and Vietnam, under a variety of pretexts ranging from `pornography' to incorrect political opinion to `terrorism.'" HRW and the others point out that "`offensive' material being targeted is no different from similar material available in libraries and bookshops. As well, information on how to make bombs, as well as other things that would be `banned,' is widely available, often from the very governments pushing for censorship." HRW et al opine that "banning such publications from the Internet will not make it any less widely available. However, it could become the tool for the censorship of any debate or opinion which happens to displease the authorities, or `pressure groups' that do not share those opinions." HRW also belongs to the Global Internet Liberty Campaign (GILC), which has pledged to fight these and other recommendations to censor the Internet. HRW program director Cynthia Brown said, "Free speech on the Internet is already under attack from states like Saudi Arabia, China and Singapore, and with this agreement, the G7 countries are only reinforcing that negative trend." The GILC was formed at the annual meeting of the Internet Society in Montreal. In addition to HRW, members of the coalition include the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the Internet Society, Privacy International, and the Association des Utilisateurs d'Internet. Further details on the G7 meeting are contained in a GILC press release available on the Web at: http://www.aclu.org/gilc/index1.html For a summary of efforts around the world to censor the Internet see the "10 May 96 Silencing the Net" report on the HRW gopher site at: gopher://gopher.igc.apc.org:5000/11/int/hrw/general For more background on global censorship of the Internet see the web sites: http://www.eff.org/~declan/global/ and http://www.io.org/~sherlock/doom/threat.html For information on global and international online freedom issues see the Electronic Frontier Foundation web site: http://www.eff.org/pub/Global/ Some of this information will be available in French by e-mail: pforsans@in-net.inba.fr, in Catalan at WWW site: http://www.lander.es/~jlmartin/in Italian at WWW site: http://www.nexus.it/alcei.html, and in Spanish at WWW site: http://www.lander.es/~jlmartin/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 12:53:50 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail This is Dodie. Is it true these rumors I'm hearing that Juliana and ten others have left the poetics list and started their own poetics list? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:12:52 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Speed In-Reply-To: This made me think--I bet this is part of the reason students and sometimes I (and critics maybe who prefer to talk about than dive into) resist sinking into the words of poetry. gab On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Tristan D. Saldana wrote: > > Good language is always good at getting us to expand our sense of the > present, our presence. The media seems to be inhumanely good at > eliminating the present, and (once again) our presence. A virtue I have > found in paying attention to language is that it puts me in a comfortable > relationship to time . . . enables evaluativeness. Not (an)esthetic, but > an esthetic sedation that helps the 'bash' of the high-threshold lows > created by the "blunting of the senses" that need hourly gratification as > Wordsworth says. The world is too much with us, indeed. > > I just heard some great lyrics today by a pretty good poet and not half > bad drummer on this subject . . . how humans, today, live in dog years: > > "I'd rather be a tortoise from Galapagos > or a span of geological time . . ." > > Tristan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 10:01:22 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Craven? In-Reply-To: On Sun, 11 Aug 1996, Schuchat wrote: > Also, for some reason I have always thought (don't know from whence this > information is derived) that Cravan was supposed to be the model for the > hero of Gide's Caves du Vatican (Lafcadio's Adventures). > Hmmm, that's interesting. Anyone else know if that's true? gab. p.s. Thanks for all the info from everyone. Great stuff. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:53:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: FUNKHOUSER CHRISTOPH Subject: interesting article on the web i came across an interesting, if problematic, article on the web at http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~heroux/uc4/4-lockard.html it's called VIRTUAL WHITENESS AND NARRATIVE DIVERSITY begins with the eye catching phrase "electronic alterity" though doesn't develop it very far. the EPC is mentioned in the article. * recently finished "Poetry Webs 1996" at http://cnsvax.albany.edu/~poetry/webs.html * In an article about "Zork" a couple of years ago in the Times Book Review 2 or 3 years ago, Robert Pinsky said two of the things that poetry and computers have in common are "memory" and "speed" -- I can't find the article right now but don't remember him particularly backing the statement up in any mind blowing way. chris f ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 16:07:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: New Books from Meow Press Meow--send you your back channel E-mail address and I'll order something. Douglas Messerli at djmess@sunmoon.com =================== At 10:58 AM 8/10/96 -0400, you wrote: >Hi everybody, before we begin our (pause) "infomerical" (laughter from >audience) I'd like to take this moment to think back to Orono, you know, >Orono. I want to thank Orono for Melvin Tolson, whom I've found in the >Buffalo Public Library. Funny to think that you can't check out a book of >poetry in buffalo, most poetry existing behind closed stacks. The same is >true for music library too--and the ERie/County-Buffalo public main branch >has a great music section, a mix of 20th sentry music (probably lingering >from the good ol' days at the philharmonic (John Tesh coming this year, >Doc Severinson's holidy opus+)and an interesting selection of music from >around the world--both traditional and contemporary. They let you check >out 10 cds for a week and I'm gettin a real education in music this way. >Anyway, it is okay to have books stored away for safety, for some >future researcher, I suppose. Like music, you have to make the >books you need to read. > >On that note, some books are finally available from Meow Press, which is >3years old this month. More books on the way include: Aaron Shurin, CODEX >(with in-laid color reproductions), Stephen Ratcliffe, SENTENCE, Noemie >Maxwell, THRUM, Charles Alexander, FOUR NINETY EIGHT TO SEVEN, Jorge >Guitart, FILM BLANC, Denise Newman, OF LATER THINGS YET TO COME, Deanna >Ferguson, ROUGH BUSH, David Carl, THE LIBRARY, and more (I don't have the >list with me). > >Catalogs are available by mail: send queries backchannel to me. > > > > >Now Available from Meow Press > > > >Michael Basinski, Hee-Bee Jeebies >7x6.5" 24pg. >$5.00 > >Natalee Caple, The Price of Acorn >6.5x4.5" 36pg. >$6.00 > >Wendy Kramer, Patinas >8.5x7" 20pg. >$5.00 > >Hank Lazer, The Early Days of the Lang Dynasty >6.5x6" 36pg. >$6.00 > >Jena Osman, Jury >6.5x4.5" 28pg. >$5.00 > >Meredith Quartermain, Terms of Sale >8.5x7" 48pg. >$6.00 > >Lisa Robertson, The Descent >8.5x7" 24pg. >$5.00 > >Lisa Samuels, Letters >7x6.5" 24pg. >$5.00 > >Gary Sullivan, Dead Man >6.5x5" 32pg. >$6.00 > > >Sullivan & Caple are prose. The whole set of 9 books is available right >now for $40 for poetics-fans. Call today! > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:23:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ann Lauterbach Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... To Charles Bernstein--- Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without talking to the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 20:15:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... al writes > To Charles Bernstein--- > > Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never > even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, > forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without talking to > the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! hi ann, we've never met, but it's a pleasure nonetheless. best wishes, maria damon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:33:14 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eiichi Hishikawa Subject: Sun & Moon Press Address > Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:10:25 -0700 > From: Douglas Messerli > Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner bibliography > > Thanks for passing on the great Weiner bibliography Charles. > Members of the Poetics List can now get copies of one of Hannah's > best works, SPOKE, for $4.00. Order through our website or > directly through my E-mail address.=20 > > The website (just a reminder) is http//:www.sunmoon.com. My E-mail > at Sun & Moon is djmess@sunmoon.com. > > Sun & Moon will be making new offers for several new titles and older > ones this next week. > > Douglas Messerli Thanks very much for your excellent book _From the Other Side of the Century: A New American Poetry 1960-1990_ (Sun & Moon Press, 1994). A friend of mine, who recommended this book to me, said his letter to Sun & Moon Press (at 6026 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, California 90036) was sent back to him with the message "unknown address." He said he used to be able to reach you with this address. Could you tell me if this address is still valid? P.S. I'm collecting Internet resources on 20th-century poets writing in English (with biographical data) at http://www.lit.kobe-u.ac.jp/~hishika/20c_poet.htm Your book mentioned above has been a tremendous help for my page, thanks. Quid prodest hoc ad aeternitatem Michael Eiichi Hishikawa hishika@kobe-u.ac.jp 20c poetry -- http://www.lit.kobe-u.ac.jp/~hishika/20c_poet.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 23:13:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail >This is Dodie. >Is it true these rumors I'm hearing that Juliana and ten others have left >the poetics list and started their own poetics list? Hi Dodie, it's just a gang of us on a cc list, most are on Poetics as well. Larry Price's idea. Some call it sub-poetics. I call it the A-list. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 23:45:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: panel on WCW for Louisville In-Reply-To: <199608130208.WAA25879@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> listfolks, i'm interested in putting together a panel for the twentieth-century literature conference to be held in louisville ky in february 1997. my work on william carlos williams' early writing (roughly from tempers through his collected 1921-1931) has got me looking currently at imagism, objectiv-"ism," pound, zukofsky, periodicals and anthologies from the teens into the thirties (and all the folks that went into publishing those as well: kreymbourg, bodenheim, mcalmon), "minor" poets of the period, etc. submissions are not due until october, which give us plenty of time to kick this around. i'd welcome ideas for papers on any related and sundry topics. feel free to reply directly to the list or backchannel. tom orange tmorange@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:15:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: george hartley Subject: Re: re poetry & speed Thanks to all for the clarifications. And to George Bowering (I think): the indigo Girls are a pop rock-folk duo from Georgia who write and sing sentimental lyrics and rhythms that haunt me. George ----------------------------------- Actually the song stuck relentlessly in mind was by Johnny Tillotson, in 1960, on the Cadence label. Two years before "The Loco-Motion" by Little Eva on Dimension. From Poetry on Cadence to Loco on Dimension--- In the immortal words of Bo Diddley: When you're in the groove You really got to move --dave baptiste chirot >On Thu, 8 Aug 1996, george hartley wrote: > >> Christina Fairbank's >> > >> > "Poetry in motion" >> >> the Indigo Girls? on this list at last! >> the speed of cultural transmission (Virginia Woolf, Galileo) >> the speed of light in the poetry of the stars at night >> >Thank you, George, but credit for those poetry & speed posts goes to >David Baptiste Chirot who is logged into POETICS via my address - ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:34:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: confidentiality, subpo, california Dodie! Of all the juicy rumors I gave you you chose the one specifically about email to out? Or maybe I delivered the juicier rumors to Kevin? Or Rodrigo? There is a subpoetics. You can have your own subpoetics. Feel free to add me in, I love to blab.. I go away for two weeks and the Kiev gets someone else to bake the challah. Basically we wanted to talk about things on a smaller and a larger scale. Anybody else stunned to see Hank Lazer's two new books and Bruce Andrews' new book from who is it, Southwest Illinois Modernism Studies? Way cool. Gettin to them right after I get to Samuel Delaney, who's had too many hits on my 'who should I read page' to continue to ignore. For instance, Dodie, you could talk about what I characterized as New York's 'Bruce problem'. That would be a real potato caliente, a jesus prepuce to end all whatevers. Anybody (everybody?) read RH Blyth's Zen in English Literature? O so mary burger does this great magazine called 'proliferation' and there are a bunch of amazing autobio poems by Alice Notley in it. That's one thing I learned in California. How to start a subpoetics. Ask some people if they wouldn't mind being in a subpoetics. Then send an email message ccing all the people who said no they wouldn't mind. Next year this time I hope to have a server with L-Soft running. Maybe then we can have a thousand poetics. That was the idea behind poetics, no? To promote the individual indeces of the real, in as decent a way as possible? Or was it to have a listserv? either way cool. Scared to see what's happened to the kasha varnishkas. Also I learned photoshop. Was the speed question an oblique tie in to the olympics? A little marinetti action? Is kemp going to win? Ach so many questions. Oh right! Finally got to the famous 530 Page #2 which was even better than they said. Missed the cordial Katie Lederer but caught the gracious Anselm Berrigan--a cool lively presence, a Shakespeare play in himself. Props to Kevin for his amazing intros and outros at New College. Kevin Killian, of course. Got Stephen Ratcliffe's 'present tense' and wished I had money for Carla harryman's city lights book. Went to the antenym #what? steve? reading at Canessa Park, Steve Carll in pink tuxedo shirt, shaky handed Eddie Berrigan read, read well, Elizabeth Robinson read some great baby poems, Chris Daniels read a knockout Pessoa translation. The virtuality all connects to something! Yipes! Wow. So does that mean there are as many imaginings caused by a reading of a work of poetry as there are readers, the poet is the superintendent or the reader? Did anybody offer poetics bill Luoma's Lisa Jarnot's Marcella Durand's Kevin Davies's or my books? I could make that offer. I could offer Steve Carll's and Ange Mlinko's books too, but that may take an extra week to sort out. End of performative east coast occasion. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 22:51:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail [new satire #3] above santa monica blvd. just west of westwood on a billboard is a picture of a beautiful persian man. he is always there dressed well, impeccably to be precise, so that the perfect white scarf around his neck and draped down across his breast seems as though it had just snowed and he being an eager and refined man has just stepped out into the world to participate in this newfound snow while across the traffic a toyota billboard trumpets the latest model in three pictures appearing as though on a schedule as the blinds which hold these images rotate in full circle directly behind the board listing live the number of dead and this man, his teeth perking from behind his well shaven face except for his well shaped mustache with its just dusted grey the hair on his pate in the field of his black black hair and his black, so incredibly black, tailored suit so that it just soothes you with this incredible feeling of competancy, this overwhelming desire to go with him to the ball to join him and the woman he would dine with who must be one of the true beauties, the actual real queens from the shah's court and this man has his hand reaching out to you and on his hand, his wonderfully manicured hand, is perched a gorgeous white, like you've never ever in your whole life seen white, dove with its eye a glint and behind this man it says "the A list. . ." >>Is it true these rumors I'm hearing that Juliana and ten others have left >>the poetics list and started their own poetics list? > >Hi Dodie, it's just a gang of us on a cc list, most are on Poetics as well. >Larry Price's idea. Some call it sub-poetics. I call it the A-list. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:10:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: gender discourse Comments: cc: POETRY@cnsvax.albany.edu gender discourse

healing.

========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 07:43:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: confidentiality, subpo, california In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Aug 1996 01:34:20 -0400 from As Jacques La Can O'Raida writes in his _The U-Turn of the Other_: "In poetics, there is always already already always already a subpoetics." - Henry La Corn O'Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:54:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Craven? Atlas Press '4 Dada Suicides' has useful discursions around Craven. Included is Conover's suggestion that, based on considerable evidence, he didn't die off Mexico but reinvented himself and made a living forging Wilde manuscripts. The book presents selections from Craven's writings also. Worth checking. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:57:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Juliana Spahr's new e-mail what are the main topics of conversation? (if you're allowed to say)--md > > Hi Dodie, it's just a gang of us on a cc list, most are on Poetics as well. > Larry Price's idea. Some call it sub-poetics. I call it the A-list. > > --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:27:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner bibliography thanks charles; i'm going to try to write something on weiner for the midwest mla and the regular mla. this, along w/ comments from you and others on the list, is extremely helpful. bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:45:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: speed & poetry (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:39:40 -0500 (CDT) From: Christina Fairbank Chirot To: poetcis@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: speed & poetry The world as we see it is passing--Paul of Tarsus Re speed and poetry--one way to think of it is as speed in poetry--as Susan Howe writes in an essay on Olson, "seeing in a poem". Speed in poetry has to do with perception and scale. For example, Emily Dickinson: To close the eyes is travel. I have but to cross the floor to stand in the Spice Islands. I do not go away, but the Grounds are ample--almost travel--to me. Emerson writes that "language is vehicular". In "Nature", he cites the use of mechanical means to attain a "low level of the sublime"in order to over come "the blank or ruin" that is in the eye. Through a change in view, the habitual is revealed as "original". Pound, Wiiliams and Olson urge writing that is efficient, fast--Pound thought of X-Rays in relation to poetry (at one point his nickname was X-Ray Pound), Williams the car and Olson the typewriter. This speed is related to perception--"one perception following another" faster and faster as Olson says. High speed perception slows things down (as in a camera)--hence the slowness of reading required by the notation used by Pound, Olson and Williams, their making long works of fragments, their use of juxtapositons, "fast cutting" so to speak, among masses of disparate materials, typographies, spaces. High speed also makes for the slowing, stopping of perception, so that the movement of a rock through geological time may be presented.It also makes possible the focusing on particulars, which, seen close up, slowed, change not in appearance but in scale. An example of this is the poetry of Larry Eigner. Eigner writes often of his concern with "immediacy and force". The speed of perception opens space, opens a moment in time, "another time in fragments". Speed in poetry is concerned with immediacy. (hence the documentary aspect in Pound, WCW, Olson, Eigner, Emily Dickinson, Howe). Immediacy is not transparency--hence the opacity, the "look" on the page of these writers. One does not see "through" the words to the immediate. The immediate is made present by the act of reading, which is slowed, and focuses, makes one aware of, the attention. The opposite kind of speed is that of speed reading--which erases particulars while asserting that it trains one to be able to absrob large amounts of data. The smooth surface of speed reading removes the physical immediacy of opaque writing--"smooths out the bumps", "irons out the rough spots". A paradox may be that writing concerned with the presentation of immediacy is eidetic--simply by being an object that is opaque rather than "transparent". Which paradox finds its most extreme manifestation in Kerouac, the fast typer and passenger in Neal Cassady's fast cars. Kerouac wants to write spontaneous bop prosody, does sketching in front of objects and scenes--yet is called "memory Babe", is obsessed by memory. Speed in poetry in relation to perception and opacity may also be thought of as a resistance. That is, if the opaque poem as object engages the attention, makes one aware of attention--it directs one to the question of the art object in relation to perception: to whom does it "belong". (Both perception and object). Robert Smithson wrote: A great artist can make art by simply casting a glance. A set of glances could be as solid as any thing or place, but the society continues to cheat the artist out of his "art of looking", by only valuing "art objects". Speed in poetry directs the attention to an "art of looking", "seeing in a poem" that opens time, space in relation to scale--and opens the question of who and what and how are time and space and objects being turned from perceptions into territories, objects, histories that are owned, bought and sold. (an examination of some of these questions may be found in Karl Young's review of Olson's Maximus to Gloucester, at the EPC Olson page.) re the Olympics, speed and poetry--check out Pindar's Olympian Odes! the view changes/windows/the same silence/cars.a mass resting/earth/backyard/clumps/a block/everyday/mysteries/a while/a gas leak/to do nothing/is it death?/no/consider it/newspaper/real needed/shadows and fireebreaks/bushes button the hills --larry eigner --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:28:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Sun & Moon Press Address Yes, 6026 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90036 is still our address. Don't know why a letter never reached us. Douglas At 11:33 AM 8/13/96 +0900, you wrote: >> Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 12:10:25 -0700 >> From: Douglas Messerli >> Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner bibliography >> >> Thanks for passing on the great Weiner bibliography Charles. >> Members of the Poetics List can now get copies of one of Hannah's >> best works, SPOKE, for $4.00. Order through our website or >> directly through my E-mail address.=20 >> >> The website (just a reminder) is http//:www.sunmoon.com. My E-mail >> at Sun & Moon is djmess@sunmoon.com. >> >> Sun & Moon will be making new offers for several new titles and older >> ones this next week. >> >> Douglas Messerli > >Thanks very much for your excellent book _From the Other Side of >the Century: A New American Poetry 1960-1990_ (Sun & Moon Press, 1994). > >A friend of mine, who recommended this book to me, said his letter >to Sun & Moon Press (at 6026 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, >California 90036) was sent back to him with the message "unknown address." >He said he used to be able to reach you with this address. > >Could you tell me if this address is still valid? > >P.S. I'm collecting Internet resources on >20th-century poets writing in English (with biographical data) at >http://www.lit.kobe-u.ac.jp/~hishika/20c_poet.htm >Your book mentioned above has been a tremendous help for >my page, thanks. > > >Quid prodest hoc ad aeternitatem >Michael Eiichi Hishikawa hishika@kobe-u.ac.jp >20c poetry -- http://www.lit.kobe-u.ac.jp/~hishika/20c_poet.htm > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:46:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Aug 1996 09:45:22 -0500 from Maggie Zurowski & Sam Truitt are reading at The Fall Cafe, Smith St, Brooklyn, Saturday, 17th August at 3:oo p.m. These two cats will read some great verse -- so if you're in ear shot, make a bee line. Maggie has been hanging in Berlin on a Fullbright fellowship & has seen her work in Mirage & the Impercipient. She holds an AB from Brown. Sam is an MFA holder from Brown and has a great reading style. Be there, once twice three times. Gale ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:59:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: the saddest story (book offer) In-Reply-To: And in all that mess the graciousness of friends was necessary sometimes going uncredited-- For instance Dodie Bellamy lately outing subpoetics of the 'Bruce problem' discussions and the 'coigns' Dodie thank you for setting up the reading Mary Burger the mysterious Robert Hale and I gave at New College It's a great room, good crowd A mural painting friend of mine arrived alerted by your publicity, I was amazed Maria for $100 I'll let you have the subpoetics archives on a zip drive Mr Filch I am not java compatible but you know how email is so asychronous, a thread will go along then someone will come back to town and answer thirty messages it's not exactly abc! Dodie I was amazed and grateful for instance, the word 'beautiful' is the topic right now Lisa Jarnot refers to it as the 'Special Ed Poetics List' which I like better than a-list, Rod it gets how we've totally missed the point all along because this is a publication and that is a backroom and both have their morning glories and smoky zones the semi-privacy affords some well not candor but reaction Dodie if I pause it's because my parents come from different class backgrounds Steve what do you make now of that consistently coincidental laughter and of anybody's failure to say hey POETICS how are you, to say hello four hundred people, there's a comfort level like a middle distance race not one to one and not Mussolini at the balcony either tho sometimes I get the feeling anyway consciousness at 40 hertz and A at 440 awake it's noon here and back to work SPECIAL OFFER FROM SUBPOETICS/ POETRY CITY _Sea Lyrics_ by Lisa Jarnot $5 _Western Love_ by Bill Luoma $5 _Lapsis Linguae_ by Marcella Durand $5 _Thunk_ by Kevin Davies $3 _A Little Gold Book_ by Jordan Davis $5 All five of these books for $20 ppd Send a message with your address to jdavis@panix.com and I'll bill you thanks Steve for being thanks Dodie Love, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:24:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: the saddest story (book offer) Jordan - Please send me the handy five-pack for $20. Is the Kevin Davies book a further instance of the Canadian language in the tradition of Dan Farrell's "Thimking of You"? & does Noemie Maxwell (not a Canadian)'s "Thrum" fit into these Canadian conjugations? Or not. Herb Levy P O Box 95744 Seattle, WA 98145 E-mail me an address & I'll send a check even before these books arrive. Hoo-hah. Bests Herb >SPECIAL OFFER FROM SUBPOETICS/ > >POETRY CITY >_Sea Lyrics_ by Lisa Jarnot $5 >_Western Love_ by Bill Luoma $5 >_Lapsis Linguae_ by Marcella Durand $5 > >_Thunk_ by Kevin Davies $3 >_A Little Gold Book_ by Jordan Davis $5 >All five of these books for $20 ppd >Send a message with your address to > >jdavis@panix.com >and I'll bill you >thanks Steve for being thanks Dodie >Love, Jordan Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 14:38:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: defining or refusing to define In-Reply-To: --a couple of days ago I posted a message asking if anyone would be interested in discussing a range of poets--a certain range but I tried to word my message so as to leave the range open--ie, let the poets define certain topics of discussion (sites of poetics)--and go for them--adding poets whenever to the convesation whenever one wanted to-- --the response--and a very reasonable question--was--well, what makes these poets a group-- --but of course I didn't say they were a group --nor did I want them to be a group --however, of course groups are necessary and real and useful and generative--and of course people understand that there are differences within groups as well as differences between groups-- --but a question I would like to read pursued is:--what are the ways that poets can read poets from different and differently defined groups together (or, as Whitman might put it, side by side)-- --for example (and I really only mean this as an example)-- --one pairing that seems fruitful to me is Amiri Baraka / Bruce Andrews All Best, Joseph Lease ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 11:53:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Oops While that last missive from me wasn't as embarrassing as some of the misdirected e-mail that accidentally goes out to the whole list, I didn't need to bore all you folks with my request to Jordan. So now I can bore with this too. Sorry. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:43:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "." Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB8915.04D35D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is this my cousin? I was Lynda Nelson, now Imburgia! Just checking! :) ---------- From: Gale Nelson[SMTP:EL500005@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 1996 8:46 AM To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) Maggie Zurowski & Sam Truitt are reading at The Fall Cafe, Smith St, Brooklyn, Saturday, 17th August at 3:oo p.m. These two cats will read some great verse -- so if you're in ear shot, make a bee line. Maggie has been hanging in Berlin on a Fullbright fellowship & has seen her work in Mirage & the Impercipient. She holds an AB from Brown. Sam is an MFA holder from Brown and has a great reading style. Be there, once twice three times. 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I didn't see any on the list. Thought it was a good opener... > >--but a question I would like to read pursued is:--what are the ways that >poets can read poets from different and differently defined groups >together (or, as Whitman might put it, side by side)-- I thought Dave Chirot's post on speed was a good recent example of how to think along these lines. Trying to open up an overview of different strains of 20th cent poetry - sense of historical development and the general purpose behind certain techniques - how to move toward a kind of simultaneous perspective on the different traditions, their strengths & weaknesses... Weakness, for example in the Pound/Wms/Olson quick-cut collage speed perception poetry Chirot describes, might be that there are problems with too-easy breakup of syntax & argument - problems of coherence ("it all coheres, all right, though my notes don't"), problems of dramatic impact, problems of meaning (stevens, for example, faulted both the over-scholarly "notation" style of Eliot & Pound as well as the overly-impressionistic style of Williams - but his own version of pseudo-statement & pseudo-argument (as in Ashbery) has its own weaknesses. Who can fault these artists, I'm not saying anything was right or wrong, but it might help to move toward new style-simultaneity to keep in mind the kind of awareness on the level of aesthetic effect that Chirot's post showed. The same approach could be taken using dramatic narrative speech & stanza effects. And then you see how they bend these various techniques toward artistic-political-"philosophical" poem making (i.e. as you say Baraka & Andrews, for one example). Chirot's paradoxical remarks on how speed of perception - sometimes mechanically induced - produced "slowness" of aesthetic effect & relate to immediacy & documentation - were very apropos. How does this relate to the performance-overdrive poetry of today (thinking of the Hannah Wieners posts)? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 13:38:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: for Chris Funkhouser. . .thanks http://www.chronotope.com/funkhouser/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 20:47:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Tyuonyi & building clocks Two things: Does anyone know if - Tyuonyi is still published and any contact issue with either the mag or Phillip Foss if it isn't published anymore. Whether John Taggart's 'How to Construct a Clock' is still in print? Contact info? cf ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 07:25:20 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Janet S. Gray" Subject: growing up poems In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Aug 1996 00:02:14 -0400 from For a friend who is looking for 'accessible' poems to spice up a mostly prose syllabus on growing up marginalized: any suggestions of poems about growing up gay/lesbian, growing up chicano/a, jewish, puertoriqueno/a, black, native american, asian american, disabled, .... ? Janet jsgray@pucc.princeton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Roberts Subject: Re: defining or refusing to define Shouldn't this discussion of speed and slowness (an interesting asymmetry there) be also keyed to the paces of the other body zones, not just the the mind and the sense organs? Most obviously, the paces of other activities such as walking, breathing, sex. Gary Roberts ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:32:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:43:21 -0700 from Not likely a cousin, Lynda (unless rather distant), but possibly a college colleague? Did you play volleyball for the Claremont Mudd Scripps team in the early 80s? From a relative-deprived Nelson (both my parents were only children), Gale ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:59:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: defining or refusing to define Joseph, Okay, why pair baraka and andrews? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:17:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: defining or refusing to define In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:59:34 EST from A very clever inversion of initials? Amiri Baraka Bruce Andrews Political layer with language orientation or language orientation with political layer? The movement from one well-defined approach to another (a "maturing" of aesthetic) over the course of each poet's career? A few bites on Joseph's line... Gale ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 09:38:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: Janet-- Sandra Maria Esteves's poem "My Name is Maria Cristina" comes to mind right away. I believe it's in her book *Blues Town Mockingbird Mambo*. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:02:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: growing up poems -the famous poem by countee cullen abt being called "nigger" in --baltimore? can't remember what' its' called. -anything by gary soto; living up the street teaches extremely well -house on mango st, cisneros md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > For a friend who is looking for 'accessible' poems to spice up > a mostly prose syllabus on growing up marginalized: > any suggestions of poems about growing up gay/lesbian, > growing up chicano/a, jewish, puertoriqueno/a, black, > native american, asian american, disabled, .... ? > > Janet > jsgray@pucc.princeton.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:36:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: mackey e-address does anyone out there have an e-address for nate mackey? i seem to have deleted said info from my old aol account. thanks groovoids. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 06:18:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: Zack (R. Zamora) Linmark's "They Like You Because You Eat Dog" is all of the below, and more, crazed cyborgian linkages of becoming muliple selves from Manila to Honolulu to SF gay scene, plus the language is equal too indeed exceeds all such fixities of what "growing up" or down or out might me in US polity of Nick at Night acculturations. See "Rolling the R's" (Kaya Press Productions, out this year) and/or work in Haggedorn's anthology "Charley Chan Is Dead" etc and Walter Lew on the whole schmeer of space and selfhoods (Premonitions); Zack has even wilder work on cross-gender reinventions and recursive Catholicism (not as dessicated or displaced as Jack Spicer machinics) in Hawaii Review 44 (Fall, 1995), edited Sean Mac Beth, which has some demonic poems by Morgan Blair (ex Faye Kicknosway socalled) for goodly measure of excess too. Hope this helps a bit re below. Rob Wilson On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Janet S. Gray wrote: > For a friend who is looking for 'accessible' poems to spice up > a mostly prose syllabus on growing up marginalized: > any suggestions of poems about growing up gay/lesbian, > growing up chicano/a, jewish, puertoriqueno/a, black, > native american, asian american, disabled, .... ? > > Janet > jsgray@pucc.princeton.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:09:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 14 Aug 1996 10:02:15 -0500 from Just like a Real Italian Kid, Michael Gizzi (The Figures) This book, like Michael's work in general, pops with just about every kind of energy you could imagine. Childhood memories galore. Gale ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 12:20:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: CSPAN-2 to Air "Freedom to Write" Program In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:53:20 -0500 from C-SPAN-2 will air an edited version of the Freedom to Write Conference, held at Brown this past spring. The air date is Saturday, 31 August at 8:00 p.m., via their "About Books" program. The Freedeom to Write Conference, sponsored by Brown University's Freedom to Write Program (housed in Creative Writing), fetaured an international symposium, including a teleconference conversation with Salman Rushdie, moderated by Freedom to Write Program founder, Robert Coover, with "present" panelists including Joanne Leedom-Ackerman, Carlos Fuentes, Gara LaMarche, Liao Hui-ying, and Liam Rector. Speakers and presenters at other portions of the five-day conference were: Mark Amerika (USA), Bei Ling (China), Vladimir Ceballos (Cuba), Chen Jo-hsi (China), Augustin Garcia (Cuba), Hwang Liang (Taiwan), William Keach (USA), Li Lu (China), Liao Hui-ying (Taiwan), Jonathan Lubin (USA), Ma Jian (Hong Kong), Mang Ke (China), Carole Maso (USA), Mei Xin (Taiwan), Meng Lang (China), Gale Nelson (USA), Aishah Rahman (USA), Luis Rivera (Cuba), Doug Unger (USA), Keith Waldrop (USA), C.D. Wright (USA), Xiang Ming (Taiwan), Xue Di (China), Yang Ge-ling (China), Yang Xiaobin (China), Ying Ping-shu (Taiwan). If you have cable, you may find the edited version of this conference to be an interesting document. Gale Nelson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 11:21:55 CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Joel Felix Comments: Originally-From: u63132@uic.edu (Joel Felix) From: Joel Felix Subject: Rube Steps In <> Anybody Not to confuse the ether-ial with the real, but I was in Buffalo last weekend and was struck by the number of ass-kicking chapbooks from "Leave Press," which published several of the people on this list. Does anyone know who publishes "Leave" Books? Shouts out to JKuzai for hot chaps tambien. A general question placed to the field: Is the future of poetry in the U.S. the 500 copy laserprinted chapbook? Is this the nascent node of the cultural production formerly known as "Poetics?" I do not come bearing critique, here, just typing aloud, as it were. and thanks to those of us (ooh, bad english--, well, how else would a collective mind talk to itself?) who caught hold of the Ronald Johnson broadside firestorm. (nudge) Felix ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:31:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: David Tudor (fwd)] Received: from virginia.edu (mars.itc.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA04679 for ; Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:15:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from Virginia.EDU by mail.virginia.edu id aa04040; 14 Aug 96 15:12 EDT Received: from faraday.clas.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id aa04020; 14 Aug 96 15:11 EDT Received: (from fem2x@localhost) by faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (8.7.5/8.6.6) id PAA253390 for collab-mus@virginia.edu; Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:11:37 -0400 From: "Fred E. Maus" Message-Id: <199608141911.PAA253390@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU> Subject: David Tudor (fwd) To: collab-mus@virginia.edu Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 15:11:37 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 > Date: 14 Aug 96 12:58:32 EDT > From: Volker Straebel <102170.3140@compuserve.com> > To: s / silence > Subject: David Tudor > > Sad news, according to Mimi Johnson, Artservices: > > David Tudor died on Tuesday, August 13, at his home in Tomkins Cove, New York, > after a series of strokes. He was 70 years old. > > Volker Straebel > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:23:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: disgruntled postal workers >And re disgruntled postal workers and lit--as of y'day's log, no one had yet >mentioned Charles Bukowski's novel _Post Office_. Oh, I thought we were talking about serious writing. George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:08:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglis Beck Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1996 to 11 Aug 1996 debra sez: "Craven's probably surfin the waves." not sure what that means, but there it is. go figure. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 20:32:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: Rube Steps In <> Joel, You can find info about these presses at the Electronic Poetry Center http://writing.upenn.edu/epc then select "Presses" --- At 11:21 AM 8/14/96 CDT, you wrote: > Anybody > >Not to confuse the ether-ial with the real, but I was in Buffalo >last weekend and was struck by the number of ass-kicking chapbooks >from "Leave Press," which published several of the people on this >list. Does anyone know who publishes "Leave" Books? > > Shouts out to JKuzai for hot chaps tambien. > > A general question placed to the field: Is the future of >poetry in the U.S. the 500 copy laserprinted chapbook? Is this >the nascent node of the cultural production formerly known as "Poetics?" >I do not come bearing critique, here, just typing aloud, as it were. > > and thanks to those of us (ooh, bad english--, well, >how else would a collective mind talk to itself?) who caught hold >of the Ronald Johnson broadside firestorm. (nudge) > >Felix > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 18:20:01 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: info on azi (fwd) I got information before I forwarded this because it seemed so extreme and horrendous. gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:19:29 -1000 From: NCADP1@aol.com To: welford@hawaii.edu Subject: info on azi Gabrielle, We received your request. Please excuse the dealay in getting back to you. We've been running day and night on this case. Enclosed please find A)an article that recently ran in the Jackson Advocate B) an excerpt from the pre-trial hearing and C) an articel that ran in the Clarion-Ledger last April. I hope these will give you a satisfactory range of perspectives and information. If I can be of further service, please don't hesitate to call on me. In Solidarity, Ben Jealous NCADP Program Coordinator ___________________________________________________________________ South African Child Facing Legal Lynching, Civil Rights Activists Protest "Under Apartheid, under the state of emergency, Black children were tried as adults," observed Elaine Salo, a South African doctoral candidate studying in Atlanta. "This case is very reminiscent of that situation. He may not be accused of a political crime, but they are not taking his age into consideration. This is really a child we are talking about." After surviving some of Apartheid's most turbulent years, Azikiwe Kambule a 10th grade South African child is facing the death penalty in Mississippi for a crime in which many say he was little more than a bystander. Despite having no criminal record, no history of violence, providing his full cooperation to the authorities, and not being present when the killing took place Azi has been charged as an accomplice to capital murder. Mississippi is seeking the death penalty against Azi-- a child who isn't even old enough to buy a beer, let alone sit on a jury. Two local prosecutors, Hinds County District Attorney Ed Peters and Madison County D.A. James Kitchens, have already acted to seal Azi's fate. In April, Peters was quoted in the Clarion-Ledger, a local daily newspaper, as saying that because the "jurors in [predominantly black] Hinds County have a reputation for refusing to vote for the death penalty," he and Kitchens moved Azi's trial to Madison County where the outcome would be more certain, if not predictable. The setting for John Grisham's A Time To Kill, Madison's racial environment is notorious. "That jury's gonna lynch 'em," says Charles Tisdale, publisher of The Jackson Advocate. "It's just that simple." With one of the largest white populations in Mississippi, Madison has become a virtual haven for the state's less tolerant elites. "That county is home to this country's richest and poorest people," says Tisdale. "The white folks ran there to avoid desegregation, and the black folks who've stayed have never received the benefit of their own civil rights." Like his fictitious counterpart in Grisham's's novel, county officials say, the current Madison County D.A. is hoping this high profile death penalty case will advance his career. "Word is he's planning on running for Judge soon," said a county attorney who asked his name not be printed. Azi's friends and supporters say they are concerned that the part-time public defender who's defending him won't be up to the challenge. "Those attorneys are contracted-- they aren't paid anything extra to handle capital trials," says Sheila O'Flaherty who was with the Mississippi Capital Defense Resource Center until congressional Republicans eliminated its funding earlier this year. The office had been charged with making sure that cases like Azi's didn't fall through the cracks. According to Steve Hawkins, executive director of the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, court-appointed attorneys in southern states often receive the equivalent of 4 or 5 dollars per hour to handle death penalty trials. "Look at the facts," says Reverend Robert Abrams, a United Methodist pastor from Gulfport, Mississippi, "and you will see this boy is more of a victim than anything else." Azikiwe Kambule came to the United States two years ago with his mother who had received a fellowship to finish her college education in America. "He was very excited," remembers his mother, Busisiwe Chabeli. "He had always heard us talk about America and he wanted the chance to see for himself." As a student at Chastain Middle School in Jackson, Azi had no trouble adjusting academically; he received excellent grades, was placed in honors classes and joined the school choir. Yet, Azi found himself under immense social pressure -- he didn't look, speak or dress like other children in his neighborhood. Azi wanted to "fit in" with his peers, and not be the subject of their ridicule. He met and started spending time with youth who were older and very street-wise. While attending Jackson's Murrah High School, Azi's grades began to fall; his parents worried that his new friends were the wrong crowd. Fearing the worst, they decided to scrape together the funds to send Azi to a boarding school. Tragically, it was already too late. Last January, a week before he was to leave for the Piney Woods School, Azi found himself in the middle of a car-jacking in which a young African American woman was kidnapped and ultimately killed. According to police testimony during a pre-trial hearing, Azi himself was so far away from the crime scene that he did not hear the gunshots. When arrested, he was the only one to cooperate with the police. He fully explained the terrible series of events that ended with the death of Pamela McGill-- a young African American woman who was popular in the local community. After his arrest, Azi tried repeatedly to help the authorities in their investigation. Civil rights activists say they fear that outrage about McGill's murder has inhibited many people's ability to see the injustice being perpetrated by local prosecutors. "While the tragedy of Ms. McGill's death is an emotional fire burning out of control in our community, we must look at the larger political dynamic of the prosecutors' decision to move this trial to Madison County to ensure these two young people get the death penalty," commented L.C. Dorsey, assistant professor of social work at Jackson State University and former executive director of the Mississippi Prison Defense Committee. "It seems that their guilt has been decided even before the trial has begun." Scheduled to commence August 19, Azi's case is already beginning to attract national and international attention. "The situation in which Azi finds himself speaks volumes about the use of the death penalty against children," Hawkins says. "During this decade, only five nations in the world are known to have executed persons for crimes they committed before their eighteenth birthday. Those countries are Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia . . . and the United States. And America has executed more than the other four combined." According to the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, a condemned child in the United States also tends to be of darker hue -- 66% of those persons sentenced to death as children have been from racial minorities. "Nowhere is the international rule of law more clear than the prohibition on the use of the death penalty against children. The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which the United States has ratified, clearly states that the 'sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed by persons below the age of eighteen'," Hawkins explains. "Indeed, every major human rights treaty in the world has the same express wording." Rev. Abrams says he is concerned that Americans have become so fearful and angry about violence in their communities that they're no longer contemplating the consequences of their responses to crime. "There is a feeding frenzy going on in America right now" he says. "And we are feeding on our youth." --_____________________________________________________________________ [NOTE: This is only an excerpt from the complete transcript. The information cited below can be found on pages 1 and 3-14 of the official transcript, which is available from the Madison County Circuit Court Clerk's Office] IN THE COUNTY COURT OF THE FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF HINDS COUNTY, MISSISSIPPI STATE OF MISSISSIPPI PLAINTIFF VERSUS NOS. 96-228 & 96-229 RUDY RHODES AND SANTONIO BERRY DEFENDANTS * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HAD AND DONE IN THE PRELIMINARY HEARING OF THE ABOVE-STYLED AND NUMBERED CAUSES BEFORE THE HONORABLE WILLIAM R. BARNETT, HINDS COUNTY JUDGE, ON THE 22ND DAY OF FEBRUARY, 1996. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LEMON: Q. Would you state your name, please. A. James French. Q. Where are you employed? A. City of Jackson Police Department, Violent Crimes Task Force. Q. How long have you been employed there? A. I've been employed with the police department a little over 18 years. Q. Have you had reason to investigate a crime involving a Rudy Rhodes and Santonio Berry? A. Yes, sir, I have. Q. Did you also investigate a crime involving an Azikiwe Kambule? A. Yes, sir, I did. Q. And they are all related in the same crime? A. Yes, sir. Q. Do you understand that because Mr. Kambule's attorney is not able to be here today because of a conflict we're only going to proceed on Mr. Rhodes and Mr. Berry? A. Yes, sir. Q. Okay. What crime had you investigated the defendant Rhodes and defendant Berry for? A. The initial crime was simply a missing person. They were--they have been arrested and charged. Mr Berry has been charged with armed robbery and kidnapping, Mr. Rhodes has been charged with accessory to armed robbery and accessory to kidnapping. Q. And where did this crime take place or begin? A. 1523 County Line Road, Somerset Apartments. Q. Is that in the First Judicial District of Hinds County? A. Yes, sir. Q. Could you please tell the Court the involvement in the crimes as to Rudy Rhodes and Santonio Berry; and when necessary please speak to defendant Azikiwe Kambule, also. A. Yes, sir. Initially Pamela McGill was reported missing on the 25th of September [sic]. We obtained a bank photo from the Trustmark Bank at County Line Road, an ATM machine, showing Ms. McGill--the last know time that we know that she was alive at 5:55 P.M. on that date. As she drives through the--away from the ATM a white Mitsubishi driven by Mr. Berry, a clear facial shot of him, pulls through the ATM. From that point on Ms. McGill has never been seen. She had a meeting set up for 6:20--6:15 that day. The person that was supposed to meet her did not arrive at her apartment until 6:20. Ms McGill was not there at that time. She's never been seen from again. The--Ms. McGill at the time she went through the bank was driving her 1993 red Dodge Stealth. She withdrew $50.00 in cash from the bank, and there was a debit against her account for $51.00, the extra one dollar against the account. We began looking for the vehicle. We received information that an individual from Laurel and two from Jackson were trying to sell the vehicle in Laurel on a street called Lucas Street. We contacted Laurel P.D. Laurel P.D. began looking for the vehicle. They found the vehicle parked on a parking lot at Howard Industries in Laurel. This was on the 5th of February around 5:00 P.M. The vehicle was processed for evidence by the Mississippi State Crime Lab. Items missing from the vehicle were the car radio, a set of floor mats, and a cellular telephone--Dodge Stealth floor mats. Also found in the car was a spent hull from a Makarov pistol, a 9 by 18 Makarov style--Makarov style pistol. They recovered other pieces of evidence. February the 6th a Mr. Preston Ramsey contacted us and advised that he had received information that Rudy Rhodes and two individuals from Jackson had taken the red Dodge Stealth to an Oscar George in Laurel. Detective Windham with the Laurel P.D. was contacted and asked to locate Oscar George. In the meantime, members of the task force went to Laurel. On the 6th special agent--FBI agent Artis and detective--and myself interviewed Oscar George. Oscar George stated that Rudy Rhodes and two individuals that he thought to be from Jackson had tried to sell him this red Dodge Stealth for a thousand dollars. On the 6th members of the Violent Crimes Task Force and the Fugitive Task Force arrested Rudy Rhodes. At 8:30 P.M. Rudy Rhodes signed a rights waiver form. This was witnessed by FBI agent Hal Neilson, Mississippi Highway Patrol investigator Tommy Squires, and myself. Rudy Rhodes then gave a written statement as to this incident. Q. Without getting into the--exactly what was said in the statement, could you please tell the Court the effect of that statement? A. The statement indicates that Azikiwe Kambule and Berry showed up at Rhodes' apartment. They were driving a red Dodge Stealth. Rhodes indicated that as soon as he saw it he knew that it was probably a stolen vehicle. They wanted to go to Laurel. He had already planned to go to Laurel, so he allowed them to follow. Rhodes and his girlfriend, Pammy Porter, rode in Rhodes' red Dodge--in a red Plymouth Laser; and the red Dodge Stealth driven by Berry and a passenger, Kambule, followed. Pammy Porter spent the night at her mother's house. Berry, Kambule, and Rhodes spent the night, the night that Ms. McGill first--missed her first appointment. The next day, Friday, Rhodes stated that he took Kambule and Berry to Oscar George's business which is a repair shop, auto repair shop; and they did in fact try to sell the car for a thousand dollars. Santonio Berry removed the radio from the vehicle and placed it in the trunk of the red Plymouth Laser that's jointly owned by Rudy Rhodes and a Stacy Roy. While in Laurel, Santonio Berry and Azikiwe Kambule told Rhodes that they had followed a woman driving from a bank to some apartment. They made the woman move over and drove toward Raymond. They turned off the highway toward Raymond on a long, dark road, made the woman get out, and drove off. They did not tell Rhodes, according to his statement, that they had murdered her. Super Bowl Sunday, which I believe is the 28th--they came back to Jackson on Saturday. Pammy Porter drove the Plymouth Laser, and the three individuals were in the car with her. And Super Bowl Sunday Berry went back to Rhodes and said he wanted to go back to Laurel. Rhodes and Berry went back to Laurel and moved the vehicle from an individual's house to the parking lot at Howard Industries where they left it. And that's basically Rhodes' statement. Q. Okay. Did any of the others make any statements? A. Yes, sir. Azikiwe Kambule when he was arrested by special agent Neilson, investigator Squires, and myself made a statement that he and--to the effect that he and Berry had in fact observed Pam McGill on the parking lot of the Trustmark Bank at the corner of County Line and Wheatley. They were standing outside of Berry's car about to use an ATM card themselves. Ms McGill drove around them, pulled in the machine. Berry made a statement that he wanted that car. They got back into Berry's car, followed her to the apartments. Kambule said that it appeared to him that Ms. McGill was getting out of her vehicle as if to check the mail, and at which point-- Q. This is back at her apartment? A. At Somerset Apartments. Kambule stated that Berry used his Makarov pistol to force Ms. Berry [sic] back into the car. He forced here through the driver's seat into the passenger's seat of this vehicle. Berry got in behind the driver's seat with the weapon on Ms. McGill. Kambule indicated that he got into the passengers door and almost had to lie down to get behind the from seat--behind the seat on the passenger's side. Berry drove. Kambule again was right behind the seat. Ms. McGill was in the right, front seat. They left Berry's Mitsubishi at Somerset Apartments. As they drove, Pam McGill kept begging for them to just take the car and take her money and let her go. According to Kambule, they went to a road down toward Raymond. Berry stopped the car, made the woman get out, and he told Kambule to turn the car around. Kambule stayed in the car. Berry walked the woman into the woods. Kambule tried to turn the car around. He cannot drive a straight shift and could not get it turned around. Berry returned shortly; and Berry stated--according the Kambule, Berry said that he had shot--he had made the girl kneel down and shot her in the back of the head. They then went, according to Kambule, went to Rhodes' apartment. There they left the Dodge and had Rudy Rhodes take them back to where they had left the white Mitsubishi. Berry drove the Mitsubishi to his apartment on Poplar Avenue. They then returned to Rudy Rhodes' home and then went to Laurel. Kambule tried to point out the road that--where the--where Ms. McGill had been placed, but he was not successful. Q. Has anyone else attempted to assist the police or the authorities in finding Ms. McGill's body? A. In--no, they all-- Q. Concerning the defendants. A. We got statements from Cedric Bernard Jones and from a Brian Cooley. They were with all three defendants on the Saturday night--excuse me--on the Friday night following the abduction; and Santonio Berry showed Brian Cooley the firearm. All three defendants showed these two witnesses the vehicle. At that time it was--when they saw it, it was parked on the parking lot at Jones County Junior College. They talked about the incident; and according to Cooley and Jones, they indicated that they had forced the woman into the car, taken her to a long, dark road and made her get out. Jones and Cooley indicated they thought the woman was still alive when she was put out of the vehicle. Pammy Porter was interviewed by agents Neilson and Detective Rainey, and she indicated that she had in fact gone to Laurel, that when she first--on the night of the incident when she returned home, she walked into her apartment and heard Santonio Berry saying something to the effect "two shots, pow, pow." She went on into the apartment. They wanted to go to Laurel. They followed Porter and Rhodes to Laurel, that during the weekend she did in fact overhear them saying that they had taken the car--taken the woman, taken the car and put her out on a long, dark road. On the way back from Laurel that Saturday, Pammy Porter was driving the vehicle with the other three individuals in it. She was stopped in Mendenhall-on Highway 49 at Mendenhall and issued a ticket for driving with no tag. Q. How did the two defendants that abducted Ms. McGill receive their vehicle back that they had parked at her apartment complex? A. According to Kambule, Rhodes--they went--after they put Ms. McGill out, they went to Rhodes' apartment. They got into Rhodes' car. Rhodes took them to Somerset Apartments. Berry got into the Mitsubishi, drove the Mitsubishi to Poplar Street where he had an apartment, and this is prior to going to Laurel. Q. I'm sorry. Where were the items that were taken from Ms. McGill's car found? A. The radio that was taken from Ms. McGill's car was found in the trunk of Rudy Rhodes' car. He identified it as being the radio that came out of the car. The cellular telephone was recovered by Laurel Police Department. An individual turned it in, and an individual there whose name escapes me now identified it as being the phone that came out of that car. The floor mats from the vehicle were found in a mini storage building in Clinton during the serving of a search warrant. So that' the only three items we've recovered from the car. The Makarov pistol we believe to have been used in the incident was found in the possession of Mr. Berry at the time he was arrested by Clinton Police Department... CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FORTNER: Q. Jim, I've just got a few questions. How long after Kambule was arrested did you arrest Mr. Berry? A. Mr. Berry was arrested somewhere in the neighborhood of 5:15, 5:30 in the morning. Q. Did Mr. Berry make any statements to the police? A. No, sir. Q. None at all? A. To my knowledge, no, sir. Q. Are you the only person that attempted to ask him any questions, or did you attempt to ask him any questions? A. I was not present during the time he was arrested. I did see him following his arrest. They brought him up to our office for processing into the jail. He was advised of his rights, but he didn't want to talk. So to my knowledge he's not made any statements whatsoever. Q. Did Mr. Kambule--is Mr. Kambule the only witness you've spoken to or the only person you or anybody else has spoken to that says Mr. Berry told him that he killed the woman? A. Yes, sir. Q. All of the other people that you've talked to, the people down in Laurel, the names that you listed, all of those people only say that Kambule and Berry said that they took her out on a road and put her out. Is that right? A. Yes. Q. Do we even know for certain what road we're talking about here? A. No. Q. So do we even know for certain that if this woman was killed it occurred here in Hinds County? A. We know that the crime began in Hinds County. Q. But we don't know where it ended. Is that right? A. Correct. Q. Right now my client is not charged with murder. Is that right? A. Correct. Q. And is it your intention to try to present a murder charge against him to the grand jury? A. Yes, sir. Q. Did Mr. Kambule--what time was it when they went through the ATM? A. 5:55. Q. And what time was it when they got to Mr. Rhodes' apartment? A. There's some discrepancy on that. Q. What does Rhodes say? A. I think Rhodes and--I believe Rhodes said around 8:00 or 9:00 P.M. Q. What about Kambule? A. He didn't say. Q. And Kambule testified--or in his statement he told you that--he told you that he did see my client with a gun. Is that right? A. Kambule? Yes, sir. Q. How long--you said that Kambule said that Mr. Berry left the car with Ms. McGill; and he tried to turn the car around, couldn't do so, and Berry returned shortly. A. Yes, sir. Q. What is shortly? A. I don't know. Q. Was he any more specific than that? A. No. Q. Did Mr. Kambule tell you that while Mr. Berry and Ms. McGill were outside of the vehicle that he heard a gunshot? A. He specifically said he did not hear a gunshot. BY MR. FORTNER: That's all. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- MADISON COUNTY WILL TRY SUSPECTS IN MCGILL SLAYING [Note: This is a copy of an article that ran in Jackson, Mississippi's Clarion-Ledger Neewspaper on April 5, 1995] Pamela McGill's suspected killers will be tried in Madison County, officials said Thursday. Investigators said they don't plan to directly file charges related to McGill's slaying against Santonio Berry, 21, and Azikiwe Kambule, 17, but will present the case to the grand jury as a capital murder punishable by the death penalty. "I requested the Madison County District Attorney take the case and he's agreed to do that," said Hinds County District Attorney, Ed Peters. "The family, from the beginning, has expressed a desire that the people charged get the death penalty and the best way is to send it to another county," Peters said. McGill, 31, disappeared Jan. 25. Police say the incident began in Hinds County, where she was kidnapped, and ended in Madison County, where she was slain. "Both counties would have jurisdiction," Peters said. Police say Berry wanted her sports car and he and Kambule kidnapped her from her Jackson apartment. Kambule told police Berry drove the car to a deserted road outside Jackson and shot McGill in the head after making her walk into the woods and kneel. Berry, Kambule and Rudy Rhodes, 19, were arrested Feb. 7. Berry and Kambule were charged with armed robbery and kidnapping, Rhodes was charged as an accessory. Rhodes is accused of arranging to sell McGill's red 1993 Dodge Stealth in Laurel; investigators say Pammy Porter, 19, Rhodes' fiancee, also knew of the crime. Porter also is charged as an accessory. Madison County Coroner Alex Breeland said an autopsy confirmed McGill was shot in the back of the head. The body was released to her family Thursday. McGill's body was found Thursday in a wooded area near North County Line Road just inside Madison County after Berry pinpointed the general location for investigators. Two previous searches, based on Kambule's vague description of the site, failed. Hinds County Sheriff Malcolm McMillin said he had no preference which county will try the case. "My position is there's good judges and good juries in Hinds and Madison counties," he said. Peters sees things differently. "The jurors in Hinds County have a reputation for refusing to vote for the death penalty," he said. "Certain judges in Hinds County have gotten so prejudiced against the prosecution that they won't even allow confessions to be entered as evidence." _____------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------- END OF TRANSMISSION ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 21:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "." Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB8A2C.B1BD7C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No! I was'nt an athelete! But I did dabble in poetry some! I do have a = cousin named Gale Nelson tho! I can see now you are not her! I'm sorry = you don't have more relatives......but you can adopt them! I did! I have = a large family.....but adopted a Grandmother, a Brother, and a cousin! = They are wonderful! Thanks for answering! ............Lynda. ---------- From: Gale Nelson[SMTP:EL500005@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 1996 6:32 AM To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) Not likely a cousin, Lynda (unless rather distant), but possibly a = college colleague? Did you play volleyball for the Claremont Mudd Scripps team = in the early 80s? >From a relative-deprived Nelson (both my parents were only children), Gale ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB8A2C.B1BD7C00 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhkFAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AEQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFUAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABVQiBQb2V0aWNzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZ3JvdXAAU01UUABQT0VUSUNTQFVCVk0uQ0Mu QlVGRkFMTy5FRFUAAAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAABwAAABQT0VUSUNTQFVC Vk0uQ0MuQlVGRkFMTy5FRFUAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHgAAACdVQiBQb2V0aWNz IGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZ3JvdXAnAAAAAgELMAEAAAAhAAAAU01UUDpQT0VUSUNTQFVCVk0uQ0MuQlVG RkFMTy5FRFUAAAAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAAMEOwEIgAcAGAAAAElQ TS5NaWNyb3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQSAAQAZAAAAUkU6IHNwZWVkICYgcG9ldHJ5IChmd2Qp AL0HAQWAAwAOAAAAzAcIAA4AFQA3ABcAAwBPAQEggAMADgAAAMwHCAAOABUAMwAhAAMAVQEBCYAB ACEAAAAwQzc4REJDNzFDRjZDRjExOTE4RTQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMAAGBwEDkAYA2AQAABIAAAALACMA AAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQCALbL3ZYq7AR4AcAABAAAAGQAAAFJFOiBz cGVlZCAmIHBvZXRyeSAoZndkKQAAAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABu4pl96nH23gN9hwRz5GOREVTVAAA AAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFQAAAGltYnVyZ2lhQHdoaWRiZXkuY29tAAAA AAMABhDclQJeAwAHEFcCAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABOT0lXQVNOVEFOQVRIRUxFVEVCVVRJRElEREFC QkxFSU5QT0VUUllTT01FSURPSEFWRUFDT1VTSU5OQU1FREdBTEVORUxTT05USE9JQ0FOU0VFTk9X WU9VQVJFTk9USEVSSU1TAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAVQMAAFEDAACdBQAATFpGdUsIBLr/AAoBDwIVAqgF 6wKDAFAC8gkCAGNoCsBzZXQyNwYABsMCgzIDxQIAcHJCcRHic3RlbQKDM3cC5AcTAoB9CoAIzwnZ O/EWDzI1NQKACoENsQtg4G5nMTAzFFALChRRDQvyYwBAB7BvISBJoCB3YXMnAjAgA5GgYXRoZWwR wGUbEIxCdQVAGzBkaWQc4BMBoAJgZSALgCBwb+ERwHJ5IHMDcBxhHNGUbyARgHYdgGEgBaBmdQCQ A6BuYQeAHRBH9wdAHYAHwGweQAOgHAAbA05jA5ERsB2Abm8H4Hm/CGAbsBYQIdEFQBwQchsRdCdt HjFyHhEiIh7Abn4nIsEfAgRgInEWEAtgdNJpHxBzLiWjYhyhIiLdIWJhHsAFMRwBbR6DHQCnGxIe 9QtgcmcdgGYf4D0DEHkltybDIAEfQEdyTQBwZARgHAFyLB8xQt8DYCrlKqAfNxsQVBwQHiCNImJ3 AiAEgWZ1bCyyvQBwawQgAhAFwABxdwZxTxkQGxAlpCWkTHkqoGEGLgqFCotsaTE4MMEC0WktMTQ0 DfAM0PMycwtZMTYKoCtxBZAFQL4tNJcKhzNLDDA0FkYDYR46NZ40FgyCICpbU03AVFA6RUw1MhAy EAA1QEJST1dOVgRNLjrzLkVEVV2/NT82TQZgAjA3fziLVwmAFm4HkB0weSsgQXVnDx+ABUAycCsg MTk5NpAgNjozEeBBTTwf2TZNVG8+XziLTS3QJVB7C1Ak8mMFIAiQAjAEIG8OZihwBAAFQFBPRVQY SUNTQl89LnViaic0UUR/OItSZUrwc3ALCeAdECYdxihmd2TmKTCfMaMzNjMXGkU0Fvca8AVAMdBr HCAtAR9VKyDzMDNN8HVuHDAEESqAKuLnHOETwABwdCkrICYCHdDtBBBpAmBR5GwcMCiwCoWFVYNh QQBlPyBEHQGXIiILUR4gdlWSeWIHQOcDIC6CHAEgQyiBE+ACIdVGQWQdEFMFAnAEIBPQ3x/gHZEK hVjSVqByUdEyAHRzP05cPjcyHzElFi3fDbATUCVhHRAghSgG4BwA/ySwHiAKsUdDLvEdgAIgUdH7 EXADEGRf4VRgTlwgMk5cX07PT980JQqFFTEAZsAAAAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMGD0t25l irsBQAAIMGD0t25lirsBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6IAAAAACrSw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BB8A2C.B1BD7C00-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 19:17:52 -1000 Reply-To: Gabrielle Welford Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: <3211ea772589643@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> Hey, Lois Ann Yamanaka's _Saturday Night at Pahala Theater_ and Zack Linmark's _Rolling the R's_. Some of Mary TallMountain's poetry and stories, if you want more stories--a wonderful one called "Green March Moons" and others. gab ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:29:43 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: WW II in Japanese Film (fwd) The following, which I cross post from another list, may be of interest to some of us. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Subject: WW II in Japanese Film Hello all, For those of you in or passing through the San Francisco - Bay Area: A Chinese acquaintance has informed me of the following films being shown at the Pacific Film Archive in Berkeley: "WW II in Japanese Film" August 16 -- Seisaku's Wife 7:00 -- Clouds at Sunset 9:15 August 17 -- Hoodlum Soldiers Return 7:30 -- Dear His Majesty 9:20 August 30 -- Senso Daughters and Karayuki-San: The Making of a Prostitute 7:30 August 31 -- Extremely Personal Eros: Love Song 7:00 -- The Emperor's Naked Army Marches On 8:55 For more info see http://www.uampfa.berkeley.edu/pfa/ Pacific Film Archive 2621 Durant Avenue Berkeley, California 94720-2250 510/642-1412 (office) 510/642-5249 (tickets) ____________________________________________________________________________ Thomas Pixley email: hf.thp@forsythe.stanford.edu Program Officer Asia/Pacific Research Center 200 Encina Hall Stanford University phone: 415-723-8387 Stanford, CA 94305-6055 fax: 415-723-6530 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:12:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: Hello POETICS -- (there, i did it) Also might suggest _American Dreams_ by Sapphire, publ. by Vintage Books. A wide range of voices from urban america, growing up, and a considerable sampling of groups in our Tossed Salad. Others on the list might know more specifics on the book, as I've (eek) only read a handful of pages so far. = Brian Carpenter ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:22:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Janet S. Gray" Subject: Growing up marginalized poems In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 00:03:22 -0400 from thanks for the help, all! Janet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 09:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: <3211ea772589643@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> Hey Maria et al, I believe the Cullen poem is called "Incident." Somone (I can't remember the artist's name) covered it on an album recently. I brought that in to play for my class the day we discussed the poem, and it was a great way to get the students into it. It may have been Ani DiFranco--does anyone know if that's right? Also in the first Nuyorican anthology (the one edited by Algarin and Pinero) there are two poems by a young poet, Jorge Lopez, which may be interesting because they are actually written by a kid. On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > -the famous poem by countee cullen abt being called "nigger" in --baltimore? > can't remember what' its' called. > -anything by gary soto; living up the street teaches extremely well > -house on mango st, cisneros > md > > > > > In message UB Poetics discussion > group writes: > > For a friend who is looking for 'accessible' poems to spice up > > a mostly prose syllabus on growing up marginalized: > > any suggestions of poems about growing up gay/lesbian, > > growing up chicano/a, jewish, puertoriqueno/a, black, > > native american, asian american, disabled, .... ? > > > > Janet > > jsgray@pucc.princeton.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:55:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: speed and WODEN Nichol Perhaps the "speed" discussion has run its course but just wanted to point out by way of postscript (sorry if it's already been mentioned) bp Nichol's treatment of it in "Probable Systems 18" (_art facts_) -- an amazing series of dream commentaries which constructs (to quote) "a number of numbered energy routes and details them in terms of acceleration & deceleration." What interests me is the way he *maps* his "Accelerator and decelerator calculations", suggesting a treatment of speed (motion) and locale (space) within the same equation. "What this map gives us access to is an understanding of 'the speed of thot'..." ---> a speed map, which as he writes earlier points to "the ability to analyze reading at a finer level of detail i.e. the change of tempo from letter to letter in any cluster of letters (be they words or more abstract groupings)." An amazing poem (and book) for any who haven't read it. (Available, by the way, through Chax.) bmarsh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:57:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: Tyuonyi & building clocks At 08:47 PM 8/13/96 -0800, you wrote: >Two things: > >Does anyone know if - Tyuonyi is still published and any contact issue with >either the mag or Phillip Foss if it isn't published anymore. I've tried repeatedly to locate Phillip and the mag, but to no avail. Not much help, sorry, but i'm curious as well. bmarsh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:20:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Pub Announcement: MASS AVE. I'm pleased to announce the publication of the premier issue of MASS AVE. This first issue is devoted exclusively to poetry thematically grounded (loosely) in the city. The works of 14 poets from 9 cities are featured. They are: Jawanza Ali Keita Ange Mlinko Jordan Davis Renee Gladman Chris Stroffolino David Baratier Giovanni Singleton Bill Luoma Lisa Amber Phillips Beth Anderson Meredith Quartermain Steve Carll Michael Leddy David Golumbia 56 pages, perfect-bound. For a copy, please send 5 dollars to MASS AVE. Daniel Bouchard PO Box 230 Boston, MA 02117 Make checks payable to Daniel Bouchard Thanks. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:38:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: growing up poems For Janet Gray: Two writers who have much material which may be of interest, use are Joseph Bruchac and Leslie Marmon Silko. Excellent writers both. Joseph Bruchac has also written many childrens' books presenting Native American texts. Though not poems (more prose poems, really) two excellent presentations of growing up in a marginalized community are Jack Kerouac's Visions of Gerard and Doctor Sax. Visions of Gerard especially has a polyphony of sounds in its movement among Nashua and Lowell Quebecois and American English. As my Pepere used to say, thank God for Kerouac--now Americans know Quebecois can be more than hockey players and lumberjacks. Lowell now has along with the Quebecois and Greek and Irish communities Kerouac wrote of a vital and growing Cambodian community. Comme on dit: Vive les differences! --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:53:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: re: growing up texts just to mention some obvious ones-- Call It Sleep by Henry Roth Go Tell It on the Mountain by James Baldwin in a way-- Dutchman by Leroi Jones / Amiri Baraka (as well as tons of his early poems) --reading other people's suggestions for this area has been very exciting-- All Best, Joseph Lease ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 07:44:29 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: problems with the Azi message Did anyone besides Charles have problems with this message coming into their system? Sorry if it did. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:03:22 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Franklin Bruno Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 Comments: To: Automatic digest processor Question for gale nelson or others: What do you see as the Andrews' two essentially different approaches? I've always thought of his work as largely having all of its ducks in a row from the start--what am I missing? Whenish do you see the break? fjb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 13:01:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: problems with the Azi message In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Did anyone besides Charles have problems with this message coming into > their system? Sorry if it did. gab. problems as in technical difficulties or problems as in objections? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:11:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 11:03:22 PST from I've looked at works like Corona (1973) and Film Noir (1978) as working with reader/audience in ways significantly different from the work by Andrews that I've seen over the last few years. Film Noir uses the page itself as instrument of reception -- typography/layout questions carrying a certain amount of weight This does not, it seems, become instrumental in the Andrews texts I've reviewed more recently. The characteristics of Corona are just beyond my reach at present -- I've not looked at it for some years, and shall make further comments tomorrow once having done so -- but when I read anything else by Andrews, that text always whispers to me as though from a separate carriage. Perhaps others will remark on Corona while I revisit it. Gale ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:27:08 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1996 to 11 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: <960814200815_456659433@emout13.mail.aol.com> Of COURSE!! I should look for him round here. He would have had time to make it this far by now... gab. On Wed, 14 Aug 1996, Douglis Beck wrote: > debra sez: "Craven's probably surfin the waves." not sure what that means, > but there it is. go figure. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:38:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Gale Nelson wrote: > I've looked at works like Corona (1973) and Film Noir (1978) as working with > reader/audience in ways significantly different from the work by Andrews that > I've seen over the last few years. Film Noir uses the page itself as instrument > of reception -- typography/layout questions carrying a certain amount of weight > This does not, it seems, become instrumental in the Andrews texts I've reviewed > more recently. The characteristics of Corona are just beyond my reach at > present -- I've not looked at it for some years, and shall make further > comments tomorrow once having done so -- but when I read anything else by > Andrews, that text always whispers to me as though from a separate carriage. > > Perhaps others will remark on Corona while I revisit it. > > Gale Gale, --in terms of politics and reception--how would you describe the force or weight of Andrews's syntax--in recent work-- Cheers, Joseph> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 08:49:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: problems with the Azi message In-Reply-To: <321366015725308@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Sorry, technical problems. Chas said it kept jumping him off e-mail. gab. Objections...? On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > In message UB Poetics > discussion group writes: > > Did anyone besides Charles have problems with this message coming into > > their system? Sorry if it did. gab. > > problems as in technical difficulties or problems as in objections? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:48:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Incident... yep, that's the name of Cullen's poem. It wasn't the fabulous ani difranco, tho, but Disappear Fear who incorporated Cullen's poem into the lyrics of their song "Who's So Scared," adding a second verse of their own about growing up queer...em Julie Marie Schmid wrote: > > Hey Maria et al, > > I believe the Cullen poem is called "Incident." Somone (I can't remember > the artist's name) covered it on an album recently. I brought that in to > play for my class the day we discussed the poem, and it was a great way > to get the students into it. It may have been Ani DiFranco--does anyone > know if that's right? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:57:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Emily Lloyd Subject: Re: Incident yep, that's the name of Cullen's poem. It wasn't the fabulous ani difranco, tho, but Disappear Fear who incorporated Cullen's poem into the lyrics of their song "Who's So Scared" (on self-titled album), adding a second verse of their own about growing up queer...an experience which, to hark back to the Plath thread, they briefly compare to the Shoah...em Julie Marie Schmid wrote: > > Hey Maria et al, > > I believe the Cullen poem is called "Incident." Somone (I can't remember > the artist's name) covered it on an album recently. I brought that in to > play for my class the day we discussed the poem, and it was a great way > to get the students into it. It may have been Ani DiFranco--does anyone > know if that's right? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:45:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:38:59 -0400 from In work from the early-mid period of this decade, I received the work as being driven by a manic "found language" machine, fed by logical sentence structure with unexpected content , unexpected turns within a larger sentence structure In , which continues, there's something akin to a confession/ admission, but of what? With , there's the kind of statement start-point that could be the basis for a best-selling self-help book, but what follows distracts the reader (or at least this reader) from staying with that "thought" -- and becomes centered on "I'm nothing more than a noise gate." So then, intersperse statements of "politics" -- -- give the reader the open-door as to read something "ironically," "straight" "meaningfully meaningless" -- the work in relation to the political pull seems to be "in the mix" -- but how does "narrator" or "voice" play in Andrews? The tone is awash with layers of urbanity, hipness, coyness, reportage, quasi-reportage, etc. So, the poltical statements may resonate when the poem is set down -- or the politics may be in destablizing the very nature of received communication (or at least opening up the potential). The reader, depending upon the degree to which s/he has already come to grips with "received communication structures") will converge upon the text in a hermeneutics of deciphering. And what is deciphered has indicators, surely, witness as the repeated word possibly out of the mouth of a parrot; it holds a primacy in visual space toward the end of the poem, so a "mouthing" by the parrot seems to suggest the yearning of the reader for a certain justice in South Africa pulls the political into focus once more. Of course, the poem doesn't end there -- too determined for the reader, but it resonates from there. (The poem I'm reacting to is Stalin's Genius, selected as the Hoover anthology was most readily available as "Guide to Bruce Andrews" this summer afternoon). Now, spacing on the page plays a subtle role here. In Film Noir, for instance, I sense spacing as my primary way into the text at hand. Cheers, gale ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 12:16:29 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Subject: tying up If there is anybody on the list Rodrigo's new phone number in San Francisco, please back channel ASAP. As for my new digs: David Baratier 934 Ebner St. Columbus, OH 43206 (614) 443-2614 The journal address will stay the same. Thanks to all who participated in the PBQ film issue and those who ordered books from us. For people who have ordered the grenier title in advance (Herb, CFunk, etc) the printing is finished and we should have it in the mail later this month. Be well ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 15:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: problems with the Azi message In-Reply-To: Hey-- That happened to me, too. I thought it was something with my program or my Mac. What's the deal? On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > Sorry, technical problems. Chas said it kept jumping him off e-mail. > gab. Objections...? > > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > > > In message UB Poetics > > discussion group writes: > > > Did anyone besides Charles have problems with this message coming into > > > their system? Sorry if it did. gab. > > > > problems as in technical difficulties or problems as in objections? > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:12:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: growing up poems Dear Janet S. Gray, The following most quickly come to mind as being fresh and accessible without being simplistic: Early 20th-century, Lower Eastside, NYC/Brownsville, Brooklyn Jewish childhood: Charles Reznikoff, Part III ("Early History of a Writer") of "By the Well of Living and Seeing", available in _Poems1918-1975: The Complete Poems of Charles Reznikoff_, Seamus Cooney, ed. (Black Sparrow 1989), pp. 137-78. Bi-racial and sexuality issues from an Asian American feminist perspective, set largely in NY and Hawaii: KIMIKO HAHN, _Earshot_ (Hanging Loose 1992) and _Unbearable Heart (Kaya Production1995), poems abt childhood scattered throughout. Growing up gay, Filipino, and proto-diva in Hawaii: R. Zamora Linmark, _Rolling the Rs_ (Kaya 1995) Chinese American family life and searches to recover a personalized Chinese American West Coast history: Alan Chong Lau, _Songs for Jadina_ (Greenfield Review Press 1980, out of print) Childhood years in a Japanese American concentration camp during World War 2: Lawson Fusao Inada, _Legends from Camp_ (Coffee House 1993). (A wonderful reader for student audiences by the way; teaches at Southern Oregon State in Ashlans.) From _Premonitions_ (WKL888, ed. [20% discounted copies can be ordered directly from me]): Growing up in 1960s NY Chinatown: FRANCES CHUNG, first eight of the nine poems, pp. 50-57. Lesbian schooldays: ANN KONG, "Ponies and Spanish Guitars", pp. 152-54. Childhood in Vietnam during the war and moving to the U.S. as an adoptee: CHRISTIAN LANGWORTHY, five poems, pp. 206-220. Sexual tensions and violence in multi-racial Hawaiian high school settings: LOIS-ANN YAMANAKA, four poems, pp. 412-423. Warning: Although the huge _New Worlds of Literature: Writings from America's Many Cultures_ (Norton 1989, 1994) includes several genres of prose and poetry and is pedagogically tempting to some for its breadth of ethnic constituencies, Norton anthology-style questions, and teacher's guide, I find most of the work plain boring-a prime example of homogenized, reduced, non-specific, linguistically unadventurous textbook multiculturalism. (The second edition is, however, better than the first.) Some of the work is good or useful (including maybe my own poem!), but you have to wade through so much to find it. Hope this is of use. Walter K. Lew Until August 30: 8 Old Colony Rd. Old Saybrook, CT 06475 860-388-4601 (ph/fax) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:03:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathrine Varnes Subject: Re: growing up poems In-Reply-To: <960815171253_260574296@emout19.mail.aol.com> here's another: Wanda Coleman -- "Poetry Lesson Number One" in _Heavy Daughter Blues_ (Black Sparrow, 91?) Kathrine Varnes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:15:47 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: growing up poems You could try and get hold of one of Roma Potiki's books. (New Zealand Maori poet) She is 'accessible', and also at times pretty bloody thought provoking and good. Also for accessibility, Dancing on the Rim of the Earth. 'An Anthology of Contemporary Northwest Native American Writing.' ed Andrea Lerner. (Arizona Press) is pretty didactic at times, but also has some good stuff. (Can pm me if you want more info about Roma Potiki) Regards, Dan >In message UB Poetics discussion >group writes: >> For a friend who is looking for 'accessible' poems to spice up >> a mostly prose syllabus on growing up marginalized: >> any suggestions of poems about growing up gay/lesbian, >> growing up chicano/a, jewish, puertoriqueno/a, black, >> native american, asian american, disabled, .... ? >> >> Janet >> jsgray@pucc.princeton.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:17:02 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: growing up poems Well then, why not Ginsberg. At 11:38 AM 8/15/96 -0500, you wrote: >For Janet Gray: > > Two writers who have much material which may be of interest, use >are Joseph Bruchac and Leslie Marmon Silko. Excellent writers both. >Joseph Bruchac has also written many childrens' books presenting Native >American texts. > > Though not poems (more prose poems, really) two excellent >presentations of growing up in a marginalized community are Jack >Kerouac's Visions of Gerard and Doctor Sax. Visions of Gerard especially >has a polyphony of sounds in its movement among Nashua and Lowell >Quebecois and American English. > > As my Pepere used to say, thank God for Kerouac--now Americans >know Quebecois can be more than hockey players and lumberjacks. > > Lowell now has along with the Quebecois and Greek and Irish >communities Kerouac wrote of a vital and growing Cambodian community. > > Comme on dit: Vive les differences! > >--dave baptiste chirot > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:16:45 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: info on azi (fwd) Meanwhile New Zealand happily plays rugby against an Afrikaaner convicted of beating a black farm boy to death. Its not just horrendous it's fucking sick. At 06:20 PM 8/14/96 -1000, you wrote: >I got information before I forwarded this because it seemed so extreme and >horrendous. gab. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 13:19:29 -1000 >From: NCADP1@aol.com >To: welford@hawaii.edu >Subject: info on azi > >Gabrielle, >We received your request. Please excuse the dealay in getting back to you. > We've been running day and night on this case. > >Enclosed please find A)an article that recently ran in the Jackson Advocate > B) an excerpt from the pre-trial hearing and C) an articel that ran in the >Clarion-Ledger last April. > >I hope these will give you a satisfactory range of perspectives and >information. > >If I can be of further service, please don't hesitate to call on me. > > >In Solidarity, > >Ben Jealous >NCADP Program Coordinator >___________________________________________________________________ >South African Child Facing Legal Lynching, Civil Rights Activists Protest > > > "Under Apartheid, under the state of emergency, Black children were tried as >adults," observed Elaine Salo, a South African doctoral candidate studying in >Atlanta. "This case is very reminiscent of that situation. He may not be >accused of a political crime, but they are not taking his age into >consideration. This is really a child we are talking about." > After surviving some of Apartheid's most turbulent years, Azikiwe Kambule a >10th grade South African child is facing the death penalty in Mississippi >for a crime in which many say he was little more than a bystander. > Despite having no criminal record, no history of violence, providing his >full cooperation to the authorities, and not being present when the killing >took place Azi has been charged as an accomplice to capital murder. > Mississippi is seeking the death penalty against Azi-- a child who isn't >even old enough to buy a beer, let alone sit on a jury. > Two local prosecutors, Hinds County District Attorney Ed Peters and Madison >County D.A. James Kitchens, have already acted to seal Azi's fate. > In April, Peters was quoted in the Clarion-Ledger, a local daily newspaper, >as saying that because the "jurors in [predominantly black] Hinds County have >a reputation for refusing to vote for the death penalty," he and Kitchens >moved Azi's trial to Madison County where the outcome would be more certain, >if not predictable. > The setting for John Grisham's A Time To Kill, Madison's racial environment >is notorious. "That jury's gonna lynch 'em," says Charles Tisdale, publisher >of The Jackson Advocate. "It's just that simple." > With one of the largest white populations in Mississippi, Madison has become >a virtual haven for the state's less tolerant elites. > "That county is home to this country's richest and poorest people," says >Tisdale. "The white folks ran there to avoid desegregation, and the black >folks who've stayed have never received the benefit of their own civil >rights." > Like his fictitious counterpart in Grisham's's novel, county officials say, >the current Madison County D.A. is hoping this high profile death penalty >case will advance his career. > "Word is he's planning on running for Judge soon," said a county attorney >who asked his name not be printed. > Azi's friends and supporters say they are concerned that the part-time >public defender who's defending him won't be up to the challenge. > "Those attorneys are contracted-- they aren't paid anything extra to handle >capital trials," says Sheila O'Flaherty who was with the Mississippi Capital >Defense Resource Center until congressional Republicans eliminated its >funding earlier this year. The office had been charged with making sure that >cases like Azi's didn't fall through the cracks. > According to Steve Hawkins, executive director of the National Coalition to >Abolish the Death Penalty, court-appointed attorneys in southern states often >receive the equivalent of 4 or 5 dollars per hour to handle death penalty >trials. > "Look at the facts," says Reverend Robert Abrams, a United Methodist pastor >from Gulfport, Mississippi, "and you will see this boy is more of a victim >than anything else." > Azikiwe Kambule came to the United States two years ago with his mother >who had received a fellowship to finish her college education in America. > "He was very excited," remembers his mother, Busisiwe Chabeli. "He had >always heard us talk about America and he wanted the chance to see for >himself." > As a student at Chastain Middle School in Jackson, Azi had no trouble >adjusting academically; he received excellent grades, was placed in honors >classes and joined the school choir. Yet, Azi found himself under immense >social pressure -- he didn't look, speak or dress like other children in his >neighborhood. > Azi wanted to "fit in" with his peers, and not be the subject of their >ridicule. He met and started spending time with youth who were older and >very street-wise. > While attending Jackson's Murrah High School, Azi's grades began to fall; >his parents worried that his new friends were the wrong crowd. Fearing the >worst, they decided to scrape together the funds to send Azi to a boarding >school. Tragically, it was already too late. > Last January, a week before he was to leave for the Piney Woods School, Azi >found himself in the middle of a car-jacking in which a young African >American woman was kidnapped and ultimately killed. > According to police testimony during a pre-trial hearing, Azi himself was so >far away from the crime scene that he did not hear the gunshots. When >arrested, he was the only one to cooperate with the police. He fully >explained the terrible series of events that ended with the death of Pamela >McGill-- a young African American woman who was popular in the local >community. After his arrest, Azi tried repeatedly to help the authorities in >their investigation. > Civil rights activists say they fear that outrage about McGill's murder has >inhibited many people's ability to see the injustice being perpetrated by >local prosecutors. > "While the tragedy of Ms. McGill's death is an emotional fire burning out of >control in our community, we must look at the larger political dynamic of the >prosecutors' decision to move this trial to Madison County to ensure these >two young people get the death penalty," commented L.C. Dorsey, assistant >professor of social work at Jackson State University and former executive >director of the Mississippi Prison Defense Committee. > "It seems that their guilt has been decided even before the trial has >begun." >Scheduled to commence August 19, Azi's case is already beginning to attract >national and international attention. > "The situation in which Azi finds himself speaks volumes about the use of >the death penalty against children," Hawkins says. > "During this decade, only five nations in the world are known to have >executed persons for crimes they committed before their eighteenth birthday. > Those countries are Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia . . . and the >United States. And America has executed more than the other four combined." > According to the National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, a >condemned child in the United States also tends to be of darker hue -- 66% of >those persons sentenced to death as children have been from racial >minorities. > "Nowhere is the international rule of law more clear than the prohibition on >the use of the death penalty against children. The International Covenant on >Civil and Political Rights, which the United States has ratified, clearly >states that the 'sentence of death shall not be imposed for crimes committed >by persons below the age of eighteen'," Hawkins explains. "Indeed, every > major human rights treaty in the world has the same express wording." > Rev. Abrams says he is concerned that Americans have become so fearful and >angry about violence in their communities that they're no longer >contemplating the consequences of their responses to crime. > "There is a feeding frenzy going on in America right now" he says. "And we >are feeding on our youth." >--_____________________________________________________________________ >[NOTE: This is only an excerpt from the complete transcript. The >information cited below can be found on pages 1 and 3-14 of the official >transcript, which is available from the Madison County Circuit Court Clerk's >Office] > >IN THE COUNTY COURT OF THE FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT >OF HINDS COUNTY, MISSISSIPPI > >STATE OF MISSISSIPPI PLAINTIFF >VERSUS NOS. 96-228 & 96-229 >RUDY RHODES AND >SANTONIO BERRY DEFENDANTS > >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HAD AND DONE IN THE PRELIMINARY HEARING OF THE >ABOVE-STYLED AND NUMBERED CAUSES BEFORE THE HONORABLE WILLIAM R. BARNETT, >HINDS COUNTY JUDGE, ON THE 22ND DAY OF FEBRUARY, 1996. >* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * > >DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. LEMON: > Q. Would you state your name, please. > A. James French. > Q. Where are you employed? > A. City of Jackson Police Department, Violent Crimes Task Force. > Q. How long have you been employed there? > A. I've been employed with the police department a little over 18 years. > Q. Have you had reason to investigate a crime involving a Rudy Rhodes and >Santonio Berry? > A. Yes, sir, I have. > Q. Did you also investigate a crime involving an Azikiwe Kambule? > A. Yes, sir, I did. > Q. And they are all related in the same crime? > A. Yes, sir. > Q. Do you understand that because Mr. Kambule's attorney is not able to be >here today because of a conflict we're only going to proceed on Mr. Rhodes >and Mr. Berry? > A. Yes, sir. > Q. Okay. What crime had you investigated the defendant Rhodes and defendant >Berry for? > A. The initial crime was simply a missing person. They were--they have been >arrested and charged. Mr Berry has been charged with armed robbery and >kidnapping, Mr. Rhodes has been charged with accessory to armed robbery and >accessory to kidnapping. > Q. And where did this crime take place or begin? > A. 1523 County Line Road, Somerset Apartments. > Q. Is that in the First Judicial District of Hinds County? > A. Yes, sir. > Q. Could you please tell the Court the involvement in the crimes as to Rudy >Rhodes and Santonio Berry; and when necessary please speak to defendant >Azikiwe Kambule, also. > A. Yes, sir. Initially Pamela McGill was reported missing on the 25th of >September [sic]. We obtained a bank photo from the Trustmark Bank at County >Line Road, an ATM machine, showing Ms. McGill--the last know time that we >know that she was alive at 5:55 P.M. on that date. As she drives through >the--away from the ATM a white Mitsubishi driven by Mr. Berry, a clear facial >shot of him, pulls through the ATM. From that point on Ms. McGill has never >been seen. She had a meeting set up for 6:20--6:15 that day. The person that >was supposed to meet her did not arrive at her apartment until 6:20. Ms >McGill was not there at that time. She's never been seen from again. The--Ms. >McGill at the time she went through the bank was driving her 1993 red Dodge >Stealth. She withdrew $50.00 in cash from the bank, and there was a debit >against her account for $51.00, the extra one dollar against the account. We >began looking for the vehicle. We received information that an individual >from Laurel and two from Jackson were trying to sell the vehicle in Laurel on >a street called Lucas Street. We contacted Laurel P.D. Laurel P.D. began >looking for the vehicle. They found the vehicle parked on a parking lot at >Howard Industries in Laurel. This was on the 5th of February around 5:00 P.M. >The vehicle was processed for evidence by the Mississippi State Crime Lab. >Items missing from the vehicle were the car radio, a set of floor mats, and a >cellular telephone--Dodge Stealth floor mats. Also found in the car was a >spent hull from a Makarov pistol, a 9 by 18 Makarov style--Makarov style >pistol. They recovered other pieces of evidence. February the 6th a Mr. >Preston Ramsey contacted us and advised that he had received information that >Rudy Rhodes and two individuals from Jackson had taken the red Dodge Stealth >to an Oscar George in Laurel. Detective Windham with the Laurel P.D. was >contacted and asked to locate Oscar George. In the meantime, members of the >task force went to Laurel. On the 6th special agent--FBI agent Artis and >detective--and myself interviewed Oscar George. Oscar George stated that Rudy >Rhodes and two individuals that he thought to be from Jackson had tried to >sell him this red Dodge Stealth for a thousand dollars. On the 6th members of >the Violent Crimes Task Force and the Fugitive Task Force arrested Rudy >Rhodes. At 8:30 P.M. Rudy Rhodes signed a rights waiver form. This was >witnessed by FBI agent Hal Neilson, Mississippi Highway Patrol investigator >Tommy Squires, and myself. Rudy Rhodes then gave a written statement as to >this incident. > Q. Without getting into the--exactly what was said in the statement, could >you please tell the Court the effect of that statement? > A. The statement indicates that Azikiwe Kambule and Berry showed up at >Rhodes' apartment. They were driving a red Dodge Stealth. Rhodes indicated >that as soon as he saw it he knew that it was probably a stolen vehicle. They >wanted to go to Laurel. He had already planned to go to Laurel, so he allowed >them to follow. Rhodes and his girlfriend, Pammy Porter, rode in Rhodes' red >Dodge--in a red Plymouth Laser; and the red Dodge Stealth driven by Berry and >a passenger, Kambule, followed. Pammy Porter spent the night at her mother's >house. Berry, Kambule, and Rhodes spent the night, the night that Ms. McGill >first--missed her first appointment. The next day, Friday, Rhodes stated that >he took Kambule and Berry to Oscar George's business which is a repair shop, >auto repair shop; and they did in fact try to sell the car for a thousand >dollars. Santonio Berry removed the radio from the vehicle and placed it in >the trunk of the red Plymouth Laser that's jointly owned by Rudy Rhodes and a >Stacy Roy. While in Laurel, Santonio Berry and Azikiwe Kambule told Rhodes >that they had followed a woman driving from a bank to some apartment. They >made the woman move over and drove toward Raymond. They turned off the >highway toward Raymond on a long, dark road, made the woman get out, and >drove off. They did not tell Rhodes, according to his statement, that they >had murdered her. Super Bowl Sunday, which I believe is the 28th--they came >back to Jackson on Saturday. Pammy Porter drove the Plymouth Laser, and the >three individuals were in the car with her. And Super Bowl Sunday Berry went >back to Rhodes and said he wanted to go back to Laurel. Rhodes and Berry went >back to Laurel and moved the vehicle from an individual's house to the >parking lot at Howard Industries where they left it. And that's basically >Rhodes' statement. > Q. Okay. Did any of the others make any statements? > A. Yes, sir. Azikiwe Kambule when he was arrested by special agent Neilson, >investigator Squires, and myself made a statement that he and--to the effect >that he and Berry had in fact observed Pam McGill on the parking lot of the >Trustmark Bank at the corner of County Line and Wheatley. They were standing >outside of Berry's car about to use an ATM card themselves. Ms McGill drove >around them, pulled in the machine. Berry made a statement that he wanted >that car. They got back into Berry's car, followed her to the apartments. >Kambule said that it appeared to him that Ms. McGill was getting out of her >vehicle as if to check the mail, and at which point-- > Q. This is back at her apartment? > A. At Somerset Apartments. Kambule stated that Berry used his Makarov pistol >to force Ms. Berry [sic] back into the car. He forced here through the >driver's seat into the passenger's seat of this vehicle. Berry got in behind >the driver's seat with the weapon on Ms. McGill. Kambule indicated that he >got into the passengers door and almost had to lie down to get behind the >from seat--behind the seat on the passenger's side. Berry drove. Kambule >again was right behind the seat. Ms. McGill was in the right, front seat. >They left Berry's Mitsubishi at Somerset Apartments. As they drove, Pam >McGill kept begging for them to just take the car and take her money and let >her go. According to Kambule, they went to a road down toward Raymond. Berry >stopped the car, made the woman get out, and he told Kambule to turn the car >around. Kambule stayed in the car. Berry walked the woman into the woods. >Kambule tried to turn the car around. He cannot drive a straight shift and >could not get it turned around. Berry returned shortly; and Berry >stated--according the Kambule, Berry said that he had shot--he had made the >girl kneel down and shot her in the back of the head. They then went, >according to Kambule, went to Rhodes' apartment. There they left the Dodge >and had Rudy Rhodes take them back to where they had left the white >Mitsubishi. Berry drove the Mitsubishi to his apartment on Poplar Avenue. >They then returned to Rudy Rhodes' home and then went to Laurel. Kambule >tried to point out the road that--where the--where Ms. McGill had been >placed, but he was not successful. > Q. Has anyone else attempted to assist the police or the authorities in >finding Ms. McGill's body? > A. In--no, they all-- > Q. Concerning the defendants. > A. We got statements from Cedric Bernard Jones and from a Brian Cooley. They >were with all three defendants on the Saturday night--excuse me--on the >Friday night following the abduction; and Santonio Berry showed Brian Cooley >the firearm. All three defendants showed these two witnesses the vehicle. At >that time it was--when they saw it, it was parked on the parking lot at Jones >County Junior College. They talked about the incident; and according to >Cooley and Jones, they indicated that they had forced the woman into the car, >taken her to a long, dark road and made her get out. Jones and Cooley >indicated they thought the woman was still alive when she was put out of the >vehicle. Pammy Porter was interviewed by agents Neilson and Detective Rainey, >and she indicated that she had in fact gone to Laurel, that when she >first--on the night of the incident when she returned home, she walked into >her apartment and heard Santonio Berry saying something to the effect "two >shots, pow, pow." She went on into the apartment. They wanted to go to >Laurel. They followed Porter and Rhodes to Laurel, that during the weekend >she did in fact overhear them saying that they had taken the car--taken the >woman, taken the car and put her out on a long, dark road. On the way back >from Laurel that Saturday, Pammy Porter was driving the vehicle with the >other three individuals in it. She was stopped in Mendenhall-on Highway 49 at >Mendenhall and issued a ticket for driving with no tag. > Q. How did the two defendants that abducted Ms. McGill receive their vehicle >back that they had parked at her apartment complex? > A. According to Kambule, Rhodes--they went--after they put Ms. McGill out, >they went to Rhodes' apartment. They got into Rhodes' car. Rhodes took them >to Somerset Apartments. Berry got into the Mitsubishi, drove the Mitsubishi >to Poplar Street where he had an apartment, and this is prior to going to >Laurel. > Q. I'm sorry. Where were the items that were taken from Ms. McGill's car >found? > A. The radio that was taken from Ms. McGill's car was found in the trunk of >Rudy Rhodes' car. He identified it as being the radio that came out of the >car. The cellular telephone was recovered by Laurel Police Department. An >individual turned it in, and an individual there whose name escapes me now >identified it as being the phone that came out of that car. The floor mats >from the vehicle were found in a mini storage building in Clinton during the >serving of a search warrant. So that' the only three items we've recovered >from the car. The Makarov pistol we believe to have been used in the incident >was found in the possession of Mr. Berry at the time he was arrested by >Clinton Police Department... >CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FORTNER: > Q. Jim, I've just got a few questions. How long after Kambule was arrested >did you arrest Mr. Berry? > A. Mr. Berry was arrested somewhere in the neighborhood of 5:15, 5:30 in the >morning. > Q. Did Mr. Berry make any statements to the police? > A. No, sir. > Q. None at all? > A. To my knowledge, no, sir. > Q. Are you the only person that attempted to ask him any questions, or did >you attempt to ask him any questions? > A. I was not present during the time he was arrested. I did see him >following his arrest. They brought him up to our office for processing into >the jail. He was advised of his rights, but he didn't want to talk. So to my >knowledge he's not made any statements whatsoever. > Q. Did Mr. Kambule--is Mr. Kambule the only witness you've spoken to or the >only person you or anybody else has spoken to that says Mr. Berry told him >that he killed the woman? > A. Yes, sir. > Q. All of the other people that you've talked to, the people down in Laurel, >the names that you listed, all of those people only say that Kambule and >Berry said that they took her out on a road and put her out. Is that right? > A. Yes. > Q. Do we even know for certain what road we're talking about here? > A. No. > Q. So do we even know for certain that if this woman was killed it occurred >here in Hinds County? > A. We know that the crime began in Hinds County. > Q. But we don't know where it ended. Is that right? > A. Correct. > Q. Right now my client is not charged with murder. Is that right? > A. Correct. > Q. And is it your intention to try to present a murder charge against him to >the grand jury? > A. Yes, sir. > Q. Did Mr. Kambule--what time was it when they went through the ATM? > A. 5:55. > Q. And what time was it when they got to Mr. Rhodes' apartment? > A. There's some discrepancy on that. > Q. What does Rhodes say? > A. I think Rhodes and--I believe Rhodes said around 8:00 or 9:00 P.M. > Q. What about Kambule? > A. He didn't say. > Q. And Kambule testified--or in his statement he told you that--he told you >that he did see my client with a gun. Is that right? > A. Kambule? Yes, sir. > Q. How long--you said that Kambule said that Mr. Berry left the car with Ms. >McGill; and he tried to turn the car around, couldn't do so, and Berry >returned shortly. > A. Yes, sir. > Q. What is shortly? > A. I don't know. > Q. Was he any more specific than that? > A. No. > Q. Did Mr. Kambule tell you that while Mr. Berry and Ms. McGill were outside >of the vehicle that he heard a gunshot? > A. He specifically said he did not hear a gunshot. >BY MR. FORTNER: That's all. >------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >--------------------------------------------- >MADISON COUNTY WILL TRY SUSPECTS IN MCGILL SLAYING > >[Note: This is a copy of an article that ran in Jackson, Mississippi's >Clarion-Ledger Neewspaper on April 5, 1995] > > Pamela McGill's suspected killers will be tried in Madison County, officials >said Thursday. > Investigators said they don't plan to directly file charges related to >McGill's slaying against Santonio Berry, 21, and Azikiwe Kambule, 17, but >will present the case to the grand jury as a capital murder punishable by the >death penalty. > "I requested the Madison County District Attorney take the case and he's >agreed to do that," said Hinds County District Attorney, Ed Peters. > "The family, from the beginning, has expressed a desire that the people >charged get the death penalty and the best way is to send it to another >county," Peters said. > McGill, 31, disappeared Jan. 25. Police say the incident began in Hinds >County, where she was kidnapped, and ended in Madison County, where she was >slain. > "Both counties would have jurisdiction," Peters said. > Police say Berry wanted her sports car and he and Kambule kidnapped her from >her Jackson apartment. Kambule told police Berry drove the car to a deserted >road outside Jackson and shot McGill in the head after making her walk into >the woods and kneel. > Berry, Kambule and Rudy Rhodes, 19, were arrested Feb. 7. Berry and Kambule >were charged with armed robbery and kidnapping, Rhodes was charged as an >accessory. > Rhodes is accused of arranging to sell McGill's red 1993 Dodge Stealth in >Laurel; investigators say Pammy Porter, 19, Rhodes' fiancee, also knew of the >crime. Porter also is charged as an accessory. > Madison County Coroner Alex Breeland said an autopsy confirmed McGill was >shot in the back of the head. The body was released to her family Thursday. > McGill's body was found Thursday in a wooded area near North County Line >Road just inside Madison County after Berry pinpointed the general location >for investigators. > Two previous searches, based on Kambule's vague description of the site, >failed. > Hinds County Sheriff Malcolm McMillin said he had no preference which county >will try the case. > "My position is there's good judges and good juries in Hinds and Madison >counties," he said. > Peters sees things differently. > "The jurors in Hinds County have a reputation for refusing to vote for the >death penalty," he said. "Certain judges in Hinds County have gotten so >prejudiced against the prosecution that they won't even allow confessions to >be entered as evidence." >_____------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------------------------- >END OF TRANSMISSION > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:56:53 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) Thanks D Chirot for comments on speed! !!! Slow reading has long been a pleasure, like a couple of hours reading a page of prose (I remember doing this kind of reading some years ago for preference and being so delighted with it that I could not bear to read at academic rates of page- per - 45 - seconds for many years). Regarding slow looking, looking like a painter looks and similar thoughts see James Elkins: The Object Stares Back (Simon & Shuster, NY, March 1996) which a friend put in my hands recently as a loan only. (Forcing fast reading on me, really.) The modes of attention with ears and eyes are various and too little explored I believe. An hour looking at a Rembrandt portrait (say) is barely a substitute for having the same portrait in your house on your wall for thirty years, some days seeing it fleetingly with little attention, some days absorbed by it for some indefinite time -- the conditions of looking it was made for. Ill and in bed one black and white ink drawing on the wall opposite was enough to keep me happy for a couple of hours one day this week. I watched the six rough oriental-looking brush marks and four ink splashes shift in their varied and incomplete suggestions of images, more engagingly than rabbit-duck readings of the "same" drawing. For sheer slowness, Aram Saroyan one-word poems, or Clark Coolidge's two word poems are of that order? But then in midst of longer texts I recall falling over the two words "monopoly polopony" of Ron Silliman (isn't that in Ketjak?), a hook, I'd say, on which I was hooked for quite a long while. Memory is fun that way. Like dreams, so hard to get it all down as it presents itself to the wandering "mind" (a retelling as story-teller of the intimate contents, all that soul to soul intention of openness of J Kerouac). It all comes at you to quick and too dense and too elaborate for slow sequential speech. Imagine telling what each image in a quick-cut movie says before the next image hits. Cough, cough cough, I'm going back to bed. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:08:14 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: problems with the Azi message In-Reply-To: Sorry, I don't know. Unless it's just cos it's so long. I'll write maybe and tel lthem. gab. On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Julie Marie Schmid wrote: > Hey-- > That happened to me, too. I thought it was something with my program or > my Mac. What's the deal? > > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, Gabrielle Welford wrote: > > > Sorry, technical problems. Chas said it kept jumping him off e-mail. > > gab. Objections...? > > > > On Thu, 15 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > > > > > In message UB Poetics > > > discussion group writes: > > > > Did anyone besides Charles have problems with this message coming into > > > > their system? Sorry if it did. gab. > > > > > > problems as in technical difficulties or problems as in objections? > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:09:39 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) sorry a line got omitted by the machine in my last posting, makes not too much difference I guess. except that I mentioned James Elkins' book Simon & Shuster, NY, March 1996 and the details got left out. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 12:10:19 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) and now i find it restored on my screen, spooky Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:19:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: info on azi (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199608152316.LAA14673@ihug.co.nz> Yes, fucking sick about describes it. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 18:54:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... >To Charles Bernstein--- > >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without talking to >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, N.Y. George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 22:11:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Bruce Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 If early Bruce (Edge, Wobbling, Love Songs, Executive Summary) "a manic "found language" machine" later (Give em Enough Rope, I Don't Have Any Paper), as Perelman in _Marginalization of Poetry_ "a kind of megaphone of the political unconscious." Question of whether newish long work Lip Service might constitute yet another 'period' in his work. But oh so much more to it than that. Lots more on this early & late in forthcoming _Aerial 9: Bruce Andrews_. Contributors to include DuPlessis, Quartermain, Perloff, Levy, Friedlander, Rasula, Golding, Lazer, Price, Bellamy, McGann, Lee Ann Brown & Hannah Weiner colab, Mittenthal, many others. Out this fall, you'll be the first to know. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 19:20:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) >>From a relative-deprived Nelson (both my parents were only children), > >Gale If that's all they were, how did they handle bringing up a third child? George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 00:39:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Kuszai Subject: fwd this? (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 12:27:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Juliana Spahr To: kuszai@acsu.Buffalo.EDU Subject: fwd this? Joel: Can you forward this to list? I'm out of my domain. I have not left poetix list but just increased my email for some reason. I seem to need 3 poetix lists. That was sad joke attempt. Here is my new address since I sent it out and now some of it is false: Juliana Spahr 182 Elm St Albany NY 12202 518-436-4074 (this changed) I can be reached at some point soon at jms@acmenet.net. Right now I can be reached at js786@bard.edu or jms@tiac.net. I welcome anyone passing through Albany to call me up. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:25:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Gale Nelson Comments: Originally-From: George Bowering From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: speed & poetry (fwd) They were precocious perhaps... Gale ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >>From a relative-deprived Nelson (both my parents were only children), > >Gale If that's all they were, how did they handle bringing up a third child? George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:33:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 15 Aug 1996 14:45:46 EDT from On the ever-continuing Bruce Andrews thread: Here's a poor rendition of one page from _Film Noir_, with larger letters being represented by: when just the first letter is larger: _GREAT (G is big) the whole word is larger (than "standard"): _GREAT_ (all letters big) Again, apologies for the poor representation: TAUNTS ORAL HUSTLE CRADLE _DRUID? HINGES RIDE LAVA _XEROX BADGES TATTLE SHILL FEEBLE MY PICKININNY NATIONAL TOXIC EAR-DRUMS LULL TINT ECLAIR PRAT SPIRE _MUCUS_ _HOLOGRAPH_ _INDIGNENT_ _PURE_ _HAY_ *** end of page The sense of words floating -- having negative space to cushion -- will perhaps increase the "slow reading" Tony Green was suggeting happens when he looks at one-word or two-word poems -- & gives the words a level of primacy I find less apparent in the denser text fields I've been more likely to see from Bruce Andrews in more recent years. Better or worse? That is not the point. What the reader is asked to do -- how gaps are formed, seems more pertinent. Cheers, Gale ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:00:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 16 Aug 1996 09:33:19 EDT from Bruce Andrews thread ad nauseum? Corona seems to hold together a more fragile vocal register -- the swaggering, propulsive energy in "stalins genius" (quoted from, in passing, yesterday) is little be found here. There's a hitch in the swing, to use baseball lingo here, where the poem becomes, at many turns, about the _hitch_. find it never have have it reads section 17 of this sequence, and the movement between search and possession/and the possibility of possession leads to wonderment in a precisely tentative ground. To read section 19: my costumes is to read a form of self-representation that cannot be pinned down. The "my" is a multivalenced and the "costumes" equally so. These two words, then, could be read as "referential" in a "sincere" sense, "exploratory" of what "sincerity" might represent, or simply a passing reference to any _my_ (not necessarily the "speaker/author/narrator" -- possibly just a passing "Joe"/"Joanne") or to no specific _my_ whatsoever. The "cosume" is equally open -- a reader might think of the writer wrapping himself (in this case a himself) in the costume of poet, of "a creature" (there's lots of "nature" blooming or emerging in other passages), etc. The driving force for me in the poem, is the energy constructions through the specificity of word selections in a taut field -- so that the page reverberates many pages later (and earlier) as one passes through from one field to the next. Context is -- s p a c e d o u t -- given a very real breathing room. The gaps are laden. In later Andrews, the propulsion factor seems the constructive force -- the gaps are in the inability to process all of the information that comes careening toward the reader. So, yes, I'd say that Andrews' work has changed over the last 20-some years. Those of you who know Bruce Andrews and have talked with him about his work can nod happily, saying, "Gale Nelson is an eccentric reader." But, alas, this is where I'm at as such reader, eccentric, but interested. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 14:09:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 16 Aug 1996 13:00:09 EDT from Just an aside to Gale's meditations on Bruce Andrews: at the Hoboken Russ-American conference, Andrews read right after Jackson Mac Low. The similarities, to my uneducated ear (I'v read very little of either of them) were interesting. In both of them, the long riveted lines of vocabulary, full of venom & glee, like a glossary of the Byzantine empire read aloud by aliens from outer space. Only Mac Low seemd more wry & somber; in Andrews the glee factor was higher. Ecclesiastes & King David, respectively. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 11:40:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: A.N. Chicherin I wanted to thank all for the info on Tyuonyi, Foss and Taggart. New question: Has 'Change of All' by Aleksey Nikolaevich Chicherin (1924) ever been translated into english? If so where would I find it? filch ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1996 17:31:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: New Andrews, Auster, Lazer &&& @ Bridge Street All those new Northwestern collections, & much else. 1. _Paradise & Method: Poetry & Praxis_ by Bruce Andrews, Northwestern, $16.95. Andrews' essays & interviews over two decades. "A syndicalism of syntax and reference -- and of their intertwining that looks out beyond the self-enclosures of the text toward an implicating of wider social (& bodily) horizons. The vectors outward, an arrow array, love's body, from language's social body." 2. _Why Write?_ by Paul Auster, Burning Deck, $10. Little book of essays including title piece, wonderful reminiscence of Reznikoff, & "Twenty-five Sentences Containing the Words _Charles Bernstein_." 3. _Ports of Entry: William S. Burroghs and the Arts_, Robert A. Sobieszek ed. w/ an afterword by Burroghs, L.A. County Museum of Art/ Thames & Hudson, $24.95. Big art book for the price including Burroghs' recent paintings, older collaborations w/ Gysin & others, Haring, Rauschenberg, & others. Lots o' text too. 4. _Arcade_ by Erica Hunt, woodcuts by Alison Saar, Kelsey St., $15. Another fine Kelsey St. artist/poet production. "The culture beats the brow with equal parts spectacle and punishment, often in the same sitcom (coming to a theater _in you_) . . . 5. _Opposing Poetries Volume One: Issues and Institutions_ by Hank Lazer, Northwestern University Press, $16.95. "A broad awareness of the decentralization of poetry production, as well as an established critique of the limited nature of today's professionalized and institutionalized poetry writing, have had a salutary effect on attempts to describe American poetry." This collection is varied & engaging. Thanks Hank. 6. _Opposing Poetries Volume Two: Readings_ by Hank Lazer, Northwestern, $16.95. Essays on Bernstein, DuPlessis, Silliman, Andrews, Hejinian, Howe, Retallack, Messerli, Sherry, & & &. This collection is varied and engaging. Thanks Hank. 7. _Swoon Rocket_ by Bill Luoma, The Figures, $6. It's "gobi time"! 8. _The Dance of the Intellect: Studies in the Poetry of the Pound Tradition_ by Marjorie Perloff, Northwestern, $16.95. Back in print! Essays on Pound/Stevens, Pound/Cage, Pound/Joyce, Oppen, Beckett, L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E, etc. 9. _Green and Black: Selected Writings_ by Leslie Scalapino, Talisman House, $10.50. 100 page selected, last 25 pages recent work from "New Time" & the title piece. "Writing in its simplest movements is the light elation. The movements are only in that and induce themselves." 10. whaddya lookin' for? Poetics folks receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order. 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, card # & expiraton date, we will send a receipt with the books. We have to charge for shipping out of U.S. Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Wahsington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 05:21:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... George Bowering wrote (the bit beginning "I was wondering..."): > > >To Charles Bernstein--- > > > >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never > >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, > >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without talking to > >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! > > I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to > me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, > N.Y. Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction manual. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... In message <3215B932.1E04@concentric.net> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > George Bowering wrote (the bit beginning "I was wondering..."): > > > > >To Charles Bernstein--- > > > > > >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never > > >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, > > >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without talking > > to > > >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! > > > > I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to > > me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, > > N.Y. > > Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in > Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh > Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the > hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction > manual. was that Pomo or po-mo? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:54:48 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: George Starbuck George Starbuck died Thursday morning at his home in Tuscaloosa at age 65 after a twenty year bout with Parkinson's disease. A fine poet and generous person, George directed the graduate writing programs in creative writing at Iowa (where, ages ago, he hired Kathleen Fraser) and at Boston University. While at SUNY-Buffalo in 1963, he initiated a successful challenge of New York's Feinberg loyalty-oath law. After a semester as writer-in-residence, George decided to live in Tuscaloosa. For the past several years, he has been a kind friend, much valued for his learning, his conversation, and his advocacy of a wide range of poetries. --Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:05:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: speed (long) a little latecoming to this thread, but thought the following pertinent... apologies if this duplicates a prior post... best//joe ------------------ SPEED: AN ELECTRONIC JOURNAL OF TECHNOLOGY, MEDIA AND SOCIETY ----------------------------------- http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/~speed *** _speed_@alishaw.ucsb.edu ----------------------------------- Bulletin: June, 1996: Please Forward *** 1. SPEED 1.3: AIRPORTS AND MALLS HAS ARRIVED 2. CALL FOR PAPERS: SPECIAL ISSUE ON PAUL VIRILIO 3. CALL FOR PAPERS: FETISHISM: HOW CYBORGS FUCK? 4. ABOUT SPEED/ WHAT, WHO, HOW? ----------------------------------- "Postmodern cyber criticism collides with cyber cool in this smart, savvy, and, dare I say, hot looking journal of technology, media, and society. The intention of _SPEED_ "is to contribute toward a democratic discourse of technology and media, one that is always focused upon the material conditions of life that technologies and media constitute and demand, and yet does not lose sight of the power of ideas to change those conditions." That is, wired culture gets self-reflexive, and it's about time." --from GNN, on-line Whole Internet Catalog 1. SPEED 1.3: AIRPORTS AND MALLS HAS ARRIVED "The globe shrinks for those who own it; for the displaced or dispossessed, the migrant or refugee, no distance is more awesome than the few feet across borders or frontiers." -- Homi K. Bhabha. "This version of the SPEED periodical/software concerns the transformation of social space by information technologies, and the value of dystopian mapping practices in accounting for the re- locations of personalized politics that those transformations demand.... "A sheer centralization of aesthetics signals an empowered domain of inhabited information. Perhaps no social space serves to exemplify this development more so than the airport. It stands for the globalization of participant space under the sign of hegemonic capital circulation, and of the standardization of capital and circulation under the sign of information. The mechanical and totemic work that it does in such service wishes to succeed at, and complete, a utopian theater. But something is still messy. For Us, the story that it, as a place, tells about itself and asks us to play a part in, suffers a vanity of false resolution and improper closure. Its utopian infantilization of our bodies which it mediates does not finally succeed in convincing us that the global system of temporized space it links is quite truly so seamless and resolved. For most, this was never even a question. For all, this is part of the rude claim made by the infomatic revolution in the built environment....." -- from "SUR-Urbia: An Introduction to Airports and Malls." VERSION 1.3 "AIRPORTS AND MALLS" INCLUDES: BENJAMIN BRATTON (U.C. SANTA BARBARA) "SUR-Urbia: AN INTRODUCTION TO AIRPORTS AND MALLS" JOHN THACKARA (NETHERLANDS DESIGN INSTITUTE) "LOST IN SPACE - A TRAVELER'S TALE" BOBBY RABYD (BROWN UNIVERSITY) "AIRPORT NOVEL" JUSTIN STINCHCOMBE (U.C. SANTA BARBARA) "FLY AWAY LITTLE BIRDIE" JEFF GATES (EYE to I) "IN OUR PATH: ESSAYS" JASON BROWN (U.C. SANTA BARBARA) AND GABRIEL WATSON (ECHO IMAGES)"PROSTHESIS" MARK BURCH (UNIVERSITY OF HAWAII) "PLATEAUS OF CONSUMPTION: THE BIOSEMIOTICS OF CONSUMER FASCISM" CARINA YERVASI (UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN) "PRE/SUB/URBAN SPRAWL: NINETEENTH-CENTURY PARISIAN PASSAGE AS URBAN MALL" JENNIFER SMITH (McMASTER UNIVERSITY) "THE MALL IN MOTION: A NARRATIVE STROLL THROUGH THE OBSTACLE COURSE" "THE FLESH MADE IMAGE, LONG LIVE THE NEW IMAGE" A CONVERSATION WITH JEFF HARRINGTON OF iDEAL oRDER/PSYCHIC TV "BIOSPHERE 3: AUDIENCE WITH/OF THE MALL OF AMERICA" A CONVERSATION WITH HERB SIMON OF SIMON AND ASSOCIATES WITH ARTWORKS BY: JEFF GATES (EYE to I) "IN OUR PATH" ROBERT NIDEFFER (U.C. SANTA BARBARA) "TERMINAL CIRCLES" JASON BROWN (U.C. SANTA BARBARA) "MOVING PICTURES" MICHELLE WAKIN (U.C. SANTA BARBARA) "FOR YOUR SAFETY" ----------------------------------- 2. SPEED 1.4: SPECIAL ISSUE: ON PAUL VIRILIO We are currently reviewing abstracts and proposals for articles for a future transmission of _SPEED_ (WWW-specific projects encouraged) on the critical significance of the work of Paul Virilio. In extremely diverse arenas Virilio's cybernetic systems theory of the social has arranged the horizons of wildly unlikely moments of questioning. As his vision of interpretation/accusation crosses the spectrum of disciplinary knowledges (while being at "home" in none), we now hear literary critics speaking of the military origins of the city-state, newscasters phrasing a "Nintendo War," historians of science commenting on the phenomenology of electronic banking, architectural theorists conceiving "the velocity" of airport space, and computer industry professionals discussing the political history of the film projector. Certainly these peculiar arrangements are not to be entirely credited to (blamed on?) Virilio, but they do suggest that his vocabulary is significant beyond the relatively narrow concerns of a "Virilio Studies." We hope, therefore, to both interrogate and expand what it is possible to make "Virilio" say. ----------------------------------- 3. SPEED 1.5: FETISHISM: HOW CYBORGS FUCK? "Object Relations" becomes a difficult strategy for love in a virtualizing world. Difficult, but still preferred. "Fetishism: How Cyborgs Fuck?" will cut between the technologies of fetishism and the fetishisms of technology -- from the techno-eroticism of B/D and S/M to the B/D and S/M of postmodern advertising. Future Sex? Yes, thank you. As long as we can keep our black patent-leather Newton PDA's! "That's a big hard drive you've got there, General!" The issue is desire, or rather desire transformed into technology's modes of enframing and poesis. The moments that these actions are made for "devices" ("ooh, it's so smooth") and not "technologies" ("we've got 98% efficiency, sir") become even more to the point. This issue will include projects relating to, but not exclusive to, Cyborg Studies, techno-psychoanalysis, transfeminism, S&M Studies, CyberSex, the cinematics of just-in-time alienation, and all other general economies of dissemination. WWW-based proposals are particularly encouraged. ----------------------------------- 4. ABOUT SPEED SPEED provides a forum for the critical investigation of technology, media and society. Our intention is to contribute toward a democratic discourse of technology and media, one that is always focused upon the material conditions of life that technologies and media constitute and demand, and yet does not lose sight of the power of ideas to change those conditions. We feel that as media of various kinds become more ubiquitous, what it means to live with and talk about a "medium" changes and expands, and so do the critical vocabularies of interpreting what those transformations indicate. Our primary goal in that effort is to foster a cross- fertilization of ideas between communities of people in the "academy" and "industry" too often separated, not by interest or common concern, but by artificially imposed disciplinary and organizational boundaries. We think that _SPEED_ is a promising step toward making these institutional boundaries more permeable, and a critical politics of "mediated sociality" more powerful. ----------------------------------- EDITORIAL BOARD FOR SPEED 1.3 Benjamin Bratton Laura Grindstaff Robert Nideffer TECHNICAL IMPLEMENTATION Interface Design: Jason Brown Robert Nideffer Links and Links Text: Benjamin Bratton .GIF and .JPEG: Jason Brown Robert Nideffer Adam Zaretsky MIDI: Ken Fields .AIFF and .AU: Ken Fields Nathan Freitas Robert Nideffer JAVA and VRML Scripting: Nathan Freitas Terminal Modeling: Rand Eppich ----------------------------------- ** TO SUBSCRIBE TO _SPEED_, send e-mail to _SPEED_@alishaw.ucsb.edu with "subscribe" in the subject header. In addition to receiving all future issues, you will be kept up to date on developments regarding the journal. ----------===============---------- HOW TO CONTACT _SPEED_ e-mail: Please send all submissions, criticisms, praise, suggestions, or anything else you have on your mind to: _SPEED_@alishaw.ucsb.edu. snail-mail: If for whatever reason you need to communicate with us via the U.S. Postal Service, please send your correspondence to: _SPEED_ c/o Robert Nideffer Department of Art Studio University of California, Santa Barbara Santa Barbara, CA. 93106 ----------===============---------- ISSN 1078-196X ---------------------- Benjamin Bratton Department of Sociology University of California, Santa Barbara 6500benb@ucsbuxa.ucsb.edu SPEED: An Electronic Journal of Technology, Media and Society http://www.arts.ucsb.edu/~speed speed@sscf.ucsb.edu ---------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 10:51:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: George Starbuck thanks for the news hank. 65 is much younger than i would have placed him... md In message <9F0F8271DE7@as.ua.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > George Starbuck died Thursday morning at his home in Tuscaloosa at > age 65 after a twenty year bout with Parkinson's disease. A fine > poet and generous person, George directed the graduate writing > programs in creative writing at Iowa (where, ages ago, he hired > Kathleen Fraser) and at Boston University. While at SUNY-Buffalo in > 1963, he initiated a successful challenge of New York's Feinberg > loyalty-oath law. After a semester as writer-in-residence, George > decided to live in Tuscaloosa. For the past several years, he has > been a kind friend, much valued for his learning, his conversation, > and his advocacy of a wide range of poetries. > > --Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:35:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: National Poetry Slam The National Poetry Slam! unbelievable Will be held Aug 20-25 in PoLand, OR -- check out amazingly full sked at: http://www.teleport.com/~bigmouth/ Bob Holman will be booksignreading with Marc Smith at Powell's Books on Tues., Aug 20, 7:30. All five parts of THE UNITED STATES OF POETRY will be screened at McMennimin's Brew Pub Cinema beginning at 9:30 on Tues., Aug 20. On Wed, Aug 21, apres Slam (11 ish), the rich and dense PRINT (16mm) of USOP Show 5 (Eigner, Creeley, Harryman, Depp, Franti et al) will be screened, again at MacMinnamon's. 27 Slam vennues will be represented... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 09:37:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: National Poetry Slam -- AOL CyberSlam Celebrating the opening of the National Poetry Slam, USAWeekend will present a CyberSlam ... Get a jump on the Nationals! Taste the bitter fruit of CyberSlam on : Monday, Aug. 19, midnight, ET. Tonguethrust Gladiators (sorry, text only) include: Beth Lisick (independent from Oakland), Mychele (Phoenix) Alexandra Oliver (Vancouver), Beau Sia (NYC), Ngoma (CT), and Jeff Meyers (ringer from PoLand). Judge from the comfort of yr Barcalonger. I think it's a choice of 3: Thumbs UP, Thums DOWN, All (or No) Thumbs (sideways). From AOL, Go To Keyword USAWeekend The Countdown to the Countdown's Being Counted Down! Babalu Holmanski ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 13:04:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglis Beck Subject: textual graphicalities as to problems with the azi text, & yes I'm with ya there; technical difficulties yes, but an interesting (though quite unreadable) graphic/text of sorts. look for it as a cover to something or other coming soon from StL,MO. get back to ya on that one. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 14:24:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglis Beck Subject: poetry & speed; poetry on speed; & a 180 turn around for love I don't think anyone has mentioned Alice Notley's texts with regards to poetry/speed/slowness. "it seems that" "their composition" "as compilations of" "quotes" "from various" "though unknown" "sources are both" "interesting & resistent" "to speed" "reading" -& writing, I might add. typing all those quote marks takes TIME. reading them does as well, which is my point. poetry ON speed seems more fun. now, I'm not necessarily talking about narcotics, certainly a possibility (& reality I'm sure), but other options could be writing while driving, writing really fast, writing while driving really fast, or reading/performing really fast. these would not be cultural products of our hyper-whatever (hypertext?-writing that can be transmitted very fast) society that demands instant access &c, but conscious decisions of an inherent speed of some things, while there is a slowness to others. to make the anology with colors: I can't imagine a slow red or yellow, nor a fast brown. interestingly blue seems to swing both ways. (cf: bill gass "on being blue") as for the other: stand up & turn around. thanks deb. see ya. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:05:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JOEL LEWIS <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Williams house to be sold Does anyone know what is happenong (or has happened) to the art collection the WCW home? There are Hartleys, Demuths, Sheelers, etc. There was apparently a dispute between the two WCW sons as what to do w/ them. Wm. Eric Willaims, who lived there, did not want to sell them, claiming they were part of his house. Brother Paul, thought they should be put on the market. Any fan of WCW should go to Rutherford at least once (easy from NYC,#190 NJT bus) & just walk around Joel Lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 19:17:04 -0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Benedetti Subject: National Poetry Slam I realize this is probably an old issue, but having tried to go to a few "poetry slams", I find it is like watching wrestling on TV, and has very little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the lowest common denominator of audience entertainment/jacking off. Does anyone else feel this competitive/entertainment trend in poetry readings (in an effort toward popularity) is the wrong direction to move in...? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 19:26:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam - David Benedetti Comments: cc: David Benedetti David, Wow, what a treat to see your name. A few years ago I saw you in front of E.J.'s and told you that I liked a poem of yours that I had seen in some mag somewhere and you were kind enough to give me a copy of your book "defense mechanism". That night a friend of mine, whom I had been friends with for years, came over to my place on Silver (or was it Lead?) and we sat around and smoked and drank and read aloud your poems. Actually I read them aloud and he listened. He was someone who had never ever expressed any interest in poetry before the whole time I had known him. He was quite taken by your work, most particularly the poem 'REPRODUCTIVE SUCCESS'. After reading your book he expressed an interest for the first time in reading some of my writing. Something he had never ever done before. So I wanted to express my gratitude once again for your kindness. As for slams I think it is important to realize that while there is a certain amount of truth to what you say it is not the whole truth. I have on a few occasions been to slams where the winner is none other than the best writer there. The vast majority of the time the winner is the best performer and sometimes the winner is someone who is equally good at both writing and performing but sometimes, rarely, the writer wins out. Rather than say the "wrong direction to move in" maybe it would be more appropriate to say it is "another direction to move in". Mayakovsky, while a still great writer, made his name when he started because he was handsome and dashing and one hell of a performer, not to mention a shrewd politician (which in my experience has a whole hell of alot more to do with winning modern day slams than either writing skill or performing ability). And while some of the dadaists did some great things outside of performance value it nevertheless played a vital role in their work as well as in the "Theatre of Cruelty". Also I believe Joy in your department has expressed, in David's book last year, the sentiment that her work with "Poetic Justice" is another form of her poetry, albeit with a groove. Perhaps slams are simply another media. I don't know. And actually in my experience slams and the spoken word movement has not occured because of a desire towards popularity (certainly that plays a role) so much as a desire to read and be heard in spite of being shut out of the "academy" (refer back to politics). There's actually a guy in Austin named Whammo who approaches his readings like they were a wrestling match and he even looks like a wrestler and some of his poems are some of the most interesting political word play skewers I have ever heard. filch >I realize this is probably an old issue, but having tried to go to a few >"poetry slams", I find it is like watching wrestling on TV, and has very >little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the lowest common >denominator of audience entertainment/jacking off. Does anyone else >feel this competitive/entertainment trend in poetry readings (in an >effort toward popularity) is the wrong direction to move in...? > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 21:47:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: slamming, competition, entertainment, politics Re: slamming, competition,entertainment,politics Float like a butterfly, Sting like a bee The Greatest slammer Is Muhammad Ali ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 22:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam benedetti writes: > I realize this is probably an old issue, but having tried to go to a few > "poetry slams", I find it is like watching wrestling on TV, and has very > little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the lowest common > denominator of audience entertainment/jacking off. Does anyone else > feel this competitive/entertainment trend in poetry readings (in an > effort toward popularity) is the wrong direction to move in...? in connection w/ a piece on slams i'm reading an essay by musicologist simon frith called "the good, the bad, and the indifferent: defending popular culture from the populists." i'm struggling w/ the issue of "evaluation." frith argues something that seems obvious once it's said, but still sounds novel when i read it; that everyone is making aesthetic judgments, but the criteria differ from person to person, class to class, venue to venue. he thinks that students and scholars of pop and mass culture who disavow any need for acknowledgeing the aesthetic are being disingenuous. i haven't finished the article yet (diacritics 1991) but it's easy to read and pretty smart. talking to this crowd, it might be old news, since POETIX seems by + large pretty invested in aesthetic judgment, but for me it's useful. so, slams are aesthetic events that involve judgment (that's the whole format --ranking, judging, etc), but the aesthetic criteria might differ overlappingly with/from other poetry contexts. someone was telling me today about a kaja silverman book he was reading that discussed a fassbinder movie in which a masochist has just had a sex change operation to please his sadist/lover; his lover is humiliating him in front of the mirror, taunting him/her about his/her new face and body and says, "what do you see when you look in the mirror?" the masochist responds, "I see myself loving you." silverman apparently cites this as an example of the egolessness of the masochist who can only see his/her existence in relation to the other (or something like that); to me, it was a moment characterized by its sheer POETICITY. i know there's a connection between the two preceding paragraphs but i'm too tired to articulately theorize it. something about context, reception, understanding of what "poetry" is, and a corresponding aesthetic judgment. kinda like seeing that 10yrold girl read that poem to her father at his funeral that i wrote about here a few months ago. xo, md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1996 20:42:23 -0700 Reply-To: { brad brace } Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: fresh theoretical interpretations Comments: To: FLUXLIST@scribble.com In-Reply-To: <199608161516.LAA03649@monticello.path.med.umich.edu> Interactive Technology suddenly begins to require governing bureaucracies to be accountable to more than special-interest lobbies. Other essential cultures will take longer to free themselves from similarily imposed sanctions; keeping the channels of disbelief open will only assist the maturation process. This is even apparent in the academe-art-world where it is no longer possible to retract and posture behind hallowed 'accredited' texts and papers. The usual claims of singular intellectual and historically verifiable dominance in lieu of anything-else, -- which can only be, after-all, facile emotional, untested, unverifiable,... tripe! The World is now subsuming this haughty one-track regime; all approaches are now equally valid. The bureaucratic 'art-speak' of the old-world still indignantly bristles at the mention of any challenge. A fresh critical language/practise has only begun to break from the ossified jargon of the hierarchical/insipid academy. Already, the patentedly absurd notion of 'art-movements and schools' is being parodied on IRC -- witness, the Fluxus-Channel, in which participants deliver-up the pseudo-intellectual posturings of yester-year, and thereby inadvertently prompt the Fluxus-Artist-Bot to chime-in with its 'personal' anecdotes of that pseudo-period. This mawkish humor is sure to spawn other similarly 'specialized' channels. Meanwhile, the remaining art-experts continue to parry, thrust and quibble over verifiable historical details and 'textual evidence' that either supports or dismisses their esteemed positions. But, who knows, some of these players may still be real, and thereby motivated to cling to the vestiges of this morbid, cloying ritual. Perhaps this is the sadistic appeal of these 'period-channels'-- that suddenly, the predatory, selfish, stagnant, internal mechanizations of the art-academy are laid-bare -- their crusty orifices now swollened shut... Which leads me to mention a current project of mine... (I introduce it now in part because of an inherent elegance which exceeds a cohesion of facts;) which is not to imply that art is yet possible-- real practise must still 'span the current cultural spasm.' It's still not clear whether art-presented through the Net escapes this stultifying condition elsewhere-- that is to say, that art-now can be seen, but then-instantly vanishes within the larger culture without reverberation or consequence. Anyway-- I've finally 'realized' some ideas that I initiated ten-years-ago; I've also found a probable-use for digital-art-image filters. The work consists of a set of collected imagery through various quirky industrial machineries which I've 'stylistically-generalized' with Art-Effects Filters. Once on-screen they look especially appealing and uneasily nostalgic from across the room. I think this imagery would be well-suited to body-tattoos (blue-black as in the illustrations). Let me know if you have one done! <> __ p.s.. for those who care: I've recently moved to San Francisco in order to work a stint as the 'Prepress Specialist' for 'Wired Magazine.' They seem to be demanding more of a political voice of late... which is interesting. The disparity in The City itself is depressing but this takes us right back to the beginning of this missive... -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace photo-art ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html ... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:21:37 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam Comments: To: David Benedetti On 17 Aug 96 at 19:17, David Benedetti wrote: > I realize this is probably an old issue, but having tried to go to a few > "poetry slams", I find it is like watching wrestling on TV, and has very > little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the lowest common > denominator of audience entertainment/jacking off. Does anyone else > feel this competitive/entertainment trend in poetry readings (in an > effort toward popularity) is the wrong direction to move in...? I'm growing to enjoy the slams more and more as time goes on. I started out opposed to them, but have sort of come around. Last night, my ensemble performed as the feature at the Dallas slam, and I was one of the judges. The poetry has a wider range than I might expect -- there's seeming to be less in-your-face assault of late and more personal material. As necessitated by the rules, the best of the performances are very focused, some toward audience assault, and some much quieter material. In fact, the older-style assault poetry is getting lower scores of late, and everyone seems to be getting tired of the endless array of Maggie Estep clones. This is leading to a wider range. For a while, I hosted a quite popular poetry event that was pretty much the anthithesis of the slams, and got much of its attendance from people who, having started at the slams, were interested in moving into other areas. (That it fell apart was due not to the material, but to personality conflicts among the hosts.) I think its very good that some poetry is moving toward audience entertainment. Fortunately, it's not the only direction that it's leading, and it's opening doors to other possibilities. Our ensemble's work is perhaps closest to the work of the Four Horsemen than to anything else we've run across, and probably would not win a slam, but much of our audience has come from the people who were first turned on to verbal performance by attending slams. There's nothing at all wrong with being popular or entertaining. And, at least around here, it's doing more to help encourage other poetries than it is hindering them. ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 00:35:28 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam - David Benedetti Comments: To: filch On 17 Aug 96 at 19:26, filch wrote: > There's actually a guy in Austin named Whammo who approaches his readings > like they were a wrestling match and he even looks like a wrestler and some > of his poems are some of the most interesting political word play skewers I > have ever heard. Yeah! Wammo's dynamite (though he's looking much less like a wrestler nowadays); he won a slam here in Dallas last week, and is heading off to Portland with the Austin team. I've worked with him some, and he's very clear about what he's doing and how he's doing it. One of the best performers around. (I saw him opening for Lydia Lunch at South By Southwest a few months back. He was captivating (while Lunch was dull enough, going for the easy shots without much performance in it, that we left soon into her set.)) ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anselm Hollo Subject: George Starbuck 17 Aug 96 To: POETICS list From: Anselm Hollo Emerging from my lair here, to salute the memory of George Starbuck, first met in Buffalo thirty years ago, during my first summer there in the company of G.S., Ann London, Robert Creeley, John Logan, John Wieners, Robert Hogg, Basil Bunting, George Bowering, Jack Clarke, Al Glover, Duncan McNaughton...a summer that definitely changed my life, as did George's subsequent invitation to come and teach at the Iowa Writers' Workshop, whose director he then was. Cet ouvroir was a very different place during his tenure than what it had been before, and, I believe, what it has been since. Not only did he invite Kathleen Fraser and her then husband Jack Marshall, he also invited Ted Berrigan, Steve Katz, Seymour Krim, David Ray--all, at that time, regarded as pretty 'cutting edge' makaris, somewhat threatening, even, to the post-Paul Engle neo-Frostian/pseudo-WCWilliamsian 'Iowa' establishment. George was a wit, an ironic master of traditional Anglo form, and a gentleman of a wide and utterly non-provincial understanding of the art. I believe that he, Ted Berrigan, and your humble servant deserve credit in Poetry Heaven for our work in that place and time (Ted was politicked out of there after only one year, by the above mentioned establishmentarians; I outlasted George by a couple of years, thanks to painter Hans Breder of the art department who fixed me up with an 'interdisciplinary' gig for a couple more years): the roll call of 'our' (and, yes, Kathleen's & Jack's & Seymour's & Steve's) students looks pretty impressive today: Alice Notley, Robert Grenier, Ray DiPalma, Merrill Gilfillan, Michael Lally, Darrell Gray, Barrett Watten, Bob Perelman, Arthur Vogelsang. (None of them, of course, quite as famous in the Old Iowa Lineage as, say, Norman Dubie or Michael Ryan.) So--Thank You, Captain George. Anselm Hollo ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:27:32 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "William M. Northcutt" Subject: identify the poem--please. I can't get these lines out of my head, something like: My mother said, to admit that your bored means you have no natural resourses; I admit I have no natural resourses. I can't remember where I read them. Help? William Northcutt ------------------------------------------------------- Walter Benjamin: "Only a redeemed mankind receives the fullness of its past." ------------------------------------------------------- William Northcutt Anglistik I Universitaet Bayreuth 95440 Bayreuth email: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de Tel: 49 921 980612 Fax: 49 921 553641 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 01:52:48 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Tinfish Net\work In-Reply-To: <9608181127.AA26923@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de> _Ola_, a new chapbook from Joe Balaz, has just been published by Tinfish Net/work. Balaz's poems treat contemporary issues of language, culture, class, as well as the Hawaiian sovereignty movement in Hawai'i. "Ola" means "life" in Hawaiian. Balaz is a frequent contributor to _Tinfish_ and the editor of _Ho'omanoa: An Anthology of Contemporary Hawaiian Literature_, which is unfortunately out of print. Chapbooks are $4, or $3 with a three issue subscription to the journal ($13). Until August 21st, you may order copies from me at the above email address. After that date, while I'll check that address from time to time, the safest way to get me will be at sschu30844@aol.com. ______________________________________________ Susan M. Schultz Dept. of English 1733 Donaghho Road University of Hawai'i-Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:47:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew D Epstein Subject: Re: identify the poem--please. In-Reply-To: <9608181127.AA26923@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de> On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, William M. Northcutt wrote: > I can't get these lines out of my head, something like: > > My mother said, to admit that your bored means you have no natural > resourses; I admit > I have no natural resourses. > > I can't remember where I read them. Help? > > William Northcutt > ------------------------------------------------------- > Walter Benjamin: "Only a redeemed mankind receives the fullness of its past." > ------------------------------------------------------- > > William Northcutt > Anglistik I > Universitaet Bayreuth > 95440 Bayreuth > email: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de > Tel: 49 921 980612 > Fax: 49 921 553641 > The lines are from John Berryman's Dream Song 14: "my mother told me as a boy (repeatingly) 'Ever to confess you're bored means you have no Inner Resources.' I conclude now I have no inner resources, because I am heavy bored." Andrew Epstein ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 09:26:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam Comments: To: jzitt@HUMANSYSTEMS.COM in response to the longish pro-slam post below from jzitt, when a discussion of open mike readings (and by extension slams) came up about a year ago on the list, there was much less acceeptance of "entertainment" forms of poetry than there is this time around. i like this shift, esp when narrated as below, from someone who has given slams a chance and sees their value and also, significantly, points out that they change over time; like any poetry, they're not static. interesting discussion, y'all; thanks! md In message <199608180524.AAA22965@zoom.bga.com> writes: > On 17 Aug 96 at 19:17, David Benedetti wrote: > > > I realize this is probably an old issue, but having tried to go to a few > > "poetry slams", I find it is like watching wrestling on TV, and has very > > little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the lowest common > > denominator of audience entertainment/jacking off. Does anyone else > > feel this competitive/entertainment trend in poetry readings (in an > > effort toward popularity) is the wrong direction to move in...? > > I'm growing to enjoy the slams more and more as time goes on. I > started out opposed to them, but have sort of come around. Last > night, my ensemble performed as the feature at the Dallas slam, and I > was one of the judges. > > The poetry has a wider range than I might expect -- there's seeming > to be less in-your-face assault of late and more personal material. > As necessitated by the rules, the best of the performances are very > focused, some toward audience assault, and some much quieter > material. In fact, the older-style assault poetry is getting lower > scores of late, and everyone seems to be getting tired of the endless > array of Maggie Estep clones. This is leading to a wider range. > > For a while, I hosted a quite popular poetry event that was pretty much the > anthithesis of the slams, and got much of its attendance from people > who, having started at the slams, were interested in moving into > other areas. (That it fell apart was due not to the material, but to > personality conflicts among the hosts.) > > I think its very good that some poetry is moving toward audience > entertainment. Fortunately, it's not the only direction that it's > leading, and it's opening doors to other possibilities. Our > ensemble's work is perhaps closest to the work of the Four Horsemen > than to anything else we've run across, and probably would not win a > slam, but much of our audience has come from the people who were > first turned on to verbal performance by attending slams. > > There's nothing at all wrong with being popular or entertaining. And, > at least around here, it's doing more to help encourage other > poetries than it is hindering them. > ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- > |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| > ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| > |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 11:47:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam hey maria, hi!... happy to complicate things!... nothing wrong with entertainment, hell no, but--- after sitting through most of the republican convention, and esp. elizabeth dole's generally acclaimed oprah-"performance," i guess what i'd like to ask is how, from a broadly cultural perspective, one might go about aligning questions of public literacy with the recent success of oral performance venues like slams (for that matter, i could ask a similar question having to do with print or electronic poetry publication, or with the production of literature generally---but the answers would no doubt be somewhat different)... that is, i'm asking (and mebbe i'm just being my contentious self here) how we may gauge art-as-entertainment or art-as-performance not only in terms of aesthetics, albeit this is valuable too, but in terms of its cultural quotient---whether spoken word or workshop or what have you---and wrt the macro-mainstreams of u.s. public life... which latter i understand, anyway, as having gone much further Right politically while, for example, performance venues would seem to have increased in popularity (which is certainly not to suggest a causal relation...)... i fully accept and appreciate the value of resistance in specific communities, specific poetry publics... on the other hand, i guess i feel as though this resistance has itself been progressively (or regressively) displaced in much of our public domain... which has (only apparently?) defused the political quotient of the literary, regardless how performative... so it may be a matter of asking how something so vital in one context can co-exist with a public (televised) 'arena' that mercilessly utilizes the performative to its own ends... anyway, this is an all-too-hasty post, but i wonder if there isn't some benefit to speculating less about poetry-as-state-of-the-art and more about poetry-as- state-of-the-union, esp. in an election year?... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 10:40:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT Archive This is Dodie Bellamy. As many of you already know, Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center in San Francisco has ceased being a bookstore and has been reborn as a literary resource center. In our office at New College we are creating a non-lending library of small press books, available to everyone. There is a lounge area next door to our office where people can lounge and read books. Small Press Traffic's interns have been busily unpacking and arranging our archive, and we have room for plenty more books. A few local poets are donating duplicates from their personal libraries to the archive, and some presses are sending review copies to be placed in the archive. We will have some kind of opening celebration late fall/early winter. Anyway, this is a call for donations to the Small Press Traffic Archive. Small Press publishers/writers, please send us one or two couple copies of your publications for our archives. Archive lisitings will eventually be posted at the SPT page at the Electronic Poetry Center. We will also, beginning with the next issue of our newsletter, list recent acquisitions to the archive. The next issue of the Small Press Traffic newsletter will be out in a couple of weeks. This issue features reviews of books published by Hard Press, O-Books, and Kelsey St. In future issues our review section will be opened up to everybody. If you have a book you would like considered for review, please send it to me. Small Press Traffic at New College 766 Valencia St. San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 The newsletter will be published at the EPC. But anyone not living in the Bay Area who would like the next three issues mailed to them, please send $10 to the above address for a subscription. The newsletter is available in the Bay Area only to members of Small Press Traffic ($35 minimum/full, $25/student). Thanks for all the support so many of you have given Small Press Traffic. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 13:49:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Wilson Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam In a message dated 96-08-17 21:23:27 EDT, David Benedetti writes: << I realize this is probably an old issue, but having tried to go to a few "poetry slams", I find it is like watching wrestling on TV, and has very little to do with poetry and a lot to do with the lowest common denominator of audience entertainment/jacking off. Does anyone else feel this competitive/entertainment trend in poetry readings (in an effort toward popularity) is the wrong direction to move in...? >> Amen. Ian Wilson Loyola Marymount University ibar88@aol.com http://users.aol.com/ibar88/private/ian1.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:15:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam hiya joe. i do think that there is room for skepticism about the relationship between the rise of the right and valuation of public poetries and other representations of "diversity." i think this is not the fault of the diversifiers (though one could make a case for their complicity, but why bother) but an instance of what walter benjamin speaks of as a proto-fascistic state in which freedom of expression is allowed minus freedom of social and economic opportunies, equal access to justice and resources, etc.--basically, "aestheticizing politics" instead of the converse. with regard to the spectacularization of oratory that mobilizes folks, we have the examples of both hitler and martin luther king jr. who had very diff agendas. and again, i don't think it's the oratory itself that does the political work. md In message <199608181647.LAA03097@charlie.cns.iit.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > hey maria, hi!... happy to complicate things!... nothing wrong with > entertainment, hell no, but--- > > after sitting through most of the republican convention, and esp. elizabeth > dole's generally acclaimed oprah-"performance," i guess what i'd like to > ask is how, from a broadly cultural perspective, one might go about > aligning questions of public literacy with the recent success of oral > performance venues like slams (for that matter, i could ask a similar > question having to do with print or electronic poetry publication, or with > the production of literature generally---but the answers would no doubt be > somewhat different)... > > that is, i'm asking (and mebbe i'm just being my contentious self here) how > we may gauge art-as-entertainment or art-as-performance not only in terms > of aesthetics, albeit this is valuable too, but in terms of its cultural > quotient---whether spoken word or workshop or what have you---and wrt the > macro-mainstreams of u.s. public life... which latter i understand, anyway, > as having gone much further Right politically while, for example, > performance venues would seem to have increased in popularity (which is > certainly not to suggest a causal relation...)... > > i fully accept and appreciate the value of resistance in specific > communities, specific poetry publics... on the other hand, i guess i feel > as though this resistance has itself been progressively (or regressively) > displaced in much of our public domain... which has (only apparently?) > defused the political quotient of the literary, regardless how > performative... so it may be a matter of asking how something so vital in > one context can co-exist with a public (televised) 'arena' that mercilessly > utilizes the performative to its own ends... > > anyway, this is an all-too-hasty post, but i wonder if there isn't some > benefit to speculating less about poetry-as-state-of-the-art and more about > poetry-as- state-of-the-union, esp. in an election year?... > > best, > > joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 14:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam ps to last response to joe: just want to clarify that there's room for skepticism yes, but not cuz the slammers etc are dupes or pawns of the right; simply that one could question their political effectiveness. but one could question just about anyone's political effectiveness. xo,md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 17:36:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: slammin' and jammin' it is hard; i started out wanting to like slams. went to a few determined to enjoy (in one of "you must stop writing in a cave" phases) and expected -- dangerous i know -- to find the latest poetic currents. blechhhhhhh!!!!! i will not bore eveyone by relating entire blow-by-blow encounters, but let me say that slams bring to my mind the leather motorcycle-jacketed, snotty, clumping (boots and dragged, slogging stride), large, drunken man who brought a couple of tables full of loud friends. when he stood up to read an abominably rhymed, cliched, 'borrowed' without attribution to the point of plagarism, uh, 'offering' which, as he bragged and as was painfully apparent, was written the night before, literally, on a cocktail napkin in a bar while he was drunk, his friends loudly applauded and whistled. they were silent _during_ the performance. this was more of a courtesy than they offered the rest of the readers. i read a sonnet afterwards and he gave me a dirty look, refused to applaud (though that was much like his response, sans dirty looks, to the rest of the readers). at the end of the evening, he lumbered over to me, tried in a non-endearingly clumsy way to pick me up, then threatened a male, black friend who had accompanied me. my friend and i whiled away a couple of beers later trying to parse whether the threat originated because he was black and i was white, because i read a sonnet that i hadn't had to 'borrow' to write, or because even though the lumberer and his crowd sulked, i still got a reasonable amount of applause... certainly this was the extreme end of things. but, how to describe this, ALL my slams were full of wierd extremes (there was the fine writer, a woman, white, who read a complex, beautiful poem in a soft voice and got almost no applause in the face of what was probably the most original, strong work of the evening... or the man, in costume, who read badly rhymed poems to animals whilst acting the various animals out (i am NOT making this up -- he paused for 2 minute pantomime sessions. this is responsible for at least six of my gray hairs). now, this was about 8 years ago, and things may (we can only hope) have changed since.... and i WAS at in a phase where everything seemed to end up in a sort of derida-ian carnival. but, appropos "speed" and slams and performance, i've found the best reading poems are long lists of images done in a slow voice to warm people up, then fairly conversational works. and the more dense the work, the more slowly i need to read it to keep the audience from getting that glazed, suffering look in their eyes. i know i have the same needs as an audience... on the other hand, i'm not near as fond of conversational poems on the page as i am of more dense work. e ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 06:00:46 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: identify the poem--please. In-Reply-To: <9608181127.AA26923@btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de> lines are from John Berryman, somewhere in the Dream Songs I believe. On Sun, 18 Aug 1996, William M. Northcutt wrote: > I can't get these lines out of my head, something like: > > My mother said, to admit that your bored means you have no natural > resourses; I admit > I have no natural resourses. > > I can't remember where I read them. Help? > > William Northcutt > ------------------------------------------------------- > Walter Benjamin: "Only a redeemed mankind receives the fullness of its past." > ------------------------------------------------------- > > William Northcutt > Anglistik I > Universitaet Bayreuth > 95440 Bayreuth > email: william.northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de > Tel: 49 921 980612 > Fax: 49 921 553641 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 15:24:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT Archive, part 2 This is Dodie again. For the SPT archive we'd also welcome donations of critical books on small press type writers (meaning all of poetry). Thanks. Went to the new SF Public library this afternoon. What a monster. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: slammin' and jammin' eliza, sounds like u had a horrible slam experience. my sister, who writes very formal light verse, read at a slam; she read her parody of the charge of the light (lite?) brigade, which is about making chocolate chip cookies; i feared the worst, in terms of her reception, but she says she scored pretty high (tho' the poem was longer than 3 minutes) and got nice applause, this was in boston/cambridge (kresge aud i think). this was just a few months ago, so maybe things have changed, or maybe, at an auditorium there's less potential than at a bar for things to get weird...? or maybe she didn't tell me about the drunken louts that insulted her...? md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 20:52:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: the wheelbarrow For the third time in as many years, I had a student this summer respond to _Spring and All_ with an off the wall anlysis of the wheelbarrow poem that invoked the Cold War, white armies, red armies, (red wheelbarrow, white chickens--get it?) etc etc. All these students had been taught this analysis in high school. Anybody else out there ever hear this? Or have any idea where it comes from? I suspect an issue of _The Explicator_ must be responsible and I thought perhaps somebody might have encountered it. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 19:18:43 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: hole 6 In-Reply-To: <199608182136.RAA13509@toast.ai.mit.edu>; from "Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest" at Aug 18, 1996 5:36 pm hole 6 is available & features poetics/reviews: The Device - Lisa Robertson Loose Change - Fred Wah Mob - Abigail Child / Susan Holbrook Dwell - Jeff Derksen / Clint Burnham The Boy Poems - Rod Smith / Mike Magoolaghan Mop Mop Georgette - Denise Riley; In the House of the Shaman - Maggie O'Sullivan / Nathaniel Dorward "hole 1-4." from Linear A - Johan de Wit Cover art - Germaine Koh slim & trim. $5. (or $9/2 issues) New addresses for eds.: Rob Manery, L03-2556 E. Hastings, Vancouver, BC, V5K 1Z3, Canada. Louis Cabri, c/o 8127 Cedar Rd., Montgomery County, Philadelphia, PA, 19027, USA. New emails forthcoming. Best, Louis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:35:05 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 13 Aug 1996 to 14 Aug 1996 Gale, go on being eccentric, please, if you will. What is a centric reader? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 00:37:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: National Poetry Slam Yo Filch et al-- FYI, Mouth Almighty Records is releasing a WAMMO (that's the way he spells it) album in Oct... called "The Fat-Headed Stranger" it mixes blues, grunge, rock and uh spoken word. Even a lil ol Laurie Anderson satire. Backchannel me a snail and I'll ship you off a copy.... Wammo himself finished second in the individuals in last year's Nationals -- Austin looks very tough this year, w/ the WamMan as (self-annointed) Captain. Maria, I read some of the Frith piece in the Voice where he has (had?) a column. The analogy many Slamsters use is of the editor who divides the poetry mss into Yes No Maybe Never OK Possible-plus vs. the Judges at Slams.... as for e's experiences ("but, how to describe this, ALL my slams were full of wierd extremes ) I say amen. This is one reason I go to Slams. To hear new unfettered is another. To be able to say to the poet who has talentbut got a low score that you liked the poem is also part of it. The best poet always loses is the only rule in Slam. Slams, seems to me, function best as a way in to poetry. You hear some poems you like, some you don't, you agree with judges, or you don't, it seems anyone can do it, maybe you'll try, etc. One of the greatest things about Slam is the work of the poets who've used the form and graduated, like Paul Beatty, Willie Perdomo, Dael Orlandersmith, among others.... Bob H ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:18:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... >> >To Charles Bernstein--- >> > >> >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never >> >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, >> >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without >>talking to >> >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! >> >> I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to >> me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, >> N.Y. > >Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in >Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh >Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the >hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction >manual. Charles, how could you!? You told me she was just an intelligent person you had befriended for her quick mind! I am sending your jewelry back. George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:33:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: George Starbuck Gad, about 1957 in Oliver, B.C., I was picking up drugstore poetry anthologies, and didnt know any names later than WCWilliams, and there was George Starbuck, so I was reading him before I read any of you people, and I am glad that I did. Odd, eh? If he was really 65 at his death, he was pretty young in 1957! George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1996 22:33:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: identify the poem--please. >I can't get these lines out of my head, something like: > >My mother said, to admit that your bored means [?] George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:42:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: new addresses This is just to say that my address from September through early December will be 107 14th Street, Upper, Buffalo, NY 14213, and my primary email address, as I said in my latest _Tinfish_ missive, will be sschu30844@aol.com. I hope to be meeting a lot of list folks in coming months, whether in New Hampshire or elsewhere. all best, Susan (Schultz) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 03:47:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... George Bowering wrote (the bit beginning "Charles, how could you!?"): > > >> >To Charles Bernstein--- > >> > > >> >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I never > >> >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so dumb, > >> >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without > >>talking to > >> >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! > >> > >> I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to > >> me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, > >> N.Y. > > > >Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in > >Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh > >Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the > >hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction > >manual. > > Charles, how could you!? You told me she was just an intelligent person you > had befriended for her quick mind! I am sending your jewelry back. > Some of us don't need trinkets to express the inexpressible, my dear --what do you call yourself--Georgette? Some of us, on a summer's eve, have the freedom of our own thoughts and need not surrender to idle jealousies. Charles may do what he wishes with his heart; I know I'll always have Peekskill, and my memories of the honeymoon suite! P.S. Keep your baubles--you may need to hock them for a few maple leaves. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: the wheelbarrow mike b rites: > For the third time in as many years, I had a student this summer > respond to _Spring and All_ with an off the wall anlysis of the > wheelbarrow poem that invoked the Cold War, white armies, red armies, > (red wheelbarrow, white chickens--get it?) etc etc. All these students > had been taught this analysis in high school. Anybody else out there > ever hear this? Or have any idea where it comes from? I suspect an > issue of _The Explicator_ must be responsible and I thought perhaps > somebody might have encountered it. > > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca no direct comment on that, not having heard it myself (would be grateful to, at least it shows an interest, i'm used to stolid silence in the classroom); but another take on the red wheelbarrow from a friend who told me a student in one of his classes insisted that "so much depends on" etc was about a farmer's livelihood, and how much he depended on the wheelbarrow as part of his job. my friend thought this was totally off the wall, but hey, this is the great heartland, where farm machinery really can make or break you...i also had a student once who insisted that the elevator images in Crane's "The Bridge" were about grain elevators, which literally surround our minneapolitan landscape rather than NYcity-type means of transportation up and down skyscrapers. just goes to show, context really does shape a reading...md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:31:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam maria, as in the thread earlier this year, i don't want to come out against the artistic-poetic possibilities of slams---the unexpected, slams as a more democratizing venue, the sorts of 'unfettered' experiences bob holman is after... but the trouble i have/am having/will probably continue to have with slams (and may they continue to proliferate regardless my qualms) is the way the venue works, the way it tends to give short-shrift, say, to the contested basis of aesthetics... and this is sparked perhaps by the spectacle of it all... critical reception, for me, is not an ebert-siskel thumbs-up/down/sideways---which is more evaluation/judgment... and which tends to promote---and here i'm being most harsh---a knee-jerk audience response... at the same time, sure---it's not the 'diversifier's' fault, as you suggest... or at least i'm not interested in 'blaming'... and sure, i like to see folks get together even to gawk over wordplay, but---- i think slams tend to create an aura (i only hint mself at benjamin here) in which, like any potentially powerful entertainment, one may be swept up, down or aside... i am---very def. am---suggesting that the nature of the venue itself plays to our cultural predisposition toward entertainment/spectacle (this latter now an old argument)... not that the structure may not be used against itself, so to say... that many folks may (will?) exploit the slam scene, as it's currently constructed, largely to the ends of self-validation seems to me a given, and seems to me to further the sorts of simplistic identity formations that have in many ways vitiated all sorts of poetic constructions---making slams no worse, and no better, than much acclaimed poetry... believe me, i'm not against occasionally thundering egos saturated with political righteousness or sublime moments of resplendent logos voiced with utter and complete sincerity... but to put the matter a bit obliquely (and based on my experience): when three-quarters or better of the folks at a slam begin and end on such notes, often without the slightest hint of performance anxiety, i find mself asking, to what do we owe such unmitigated bravery?... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 09:52:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: the wheelbarrow In-Reply-To: <321875914103776@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Hey all-- I've taught The Red Wheelbarrow for a couple of years now, and tend to teach it on a section on Imagism. Before having them read the poem, I give them Pound's definition of the Image as a framework for their readings, along with Pound's In a Station of a Metro, some HD, some Marianne Moore. It usually works pretty well. Iowa students tend to really like this poem, though, because many of them either grew up on farms or have relatives who live on farms, so they all have a very immediate a personnal response to the complex of images that Wms. is using. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:06:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "John E. Matthias" Subject: Berryman William Northcutt: It's Dream Song #14, and it's "inner resources" (not "natural resources") ...my mother told me as a boy (repeatingly) 'Ever to confess you're bored means you have no Inner Resources.' I conclude now I have no inner resources, because I am heavy bored... etc. John Matthias ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:15:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: performance art/slams Huck had never seen a bear before. Sometime Aunt Padgett would tell stories about bears that strolled through Mudville in the early morning, long time ago before they built the levee. & sometime Pap would tell about his old huntin days before his leg turned green. So when Professor Bigelow Peepers & his Big Animal Bear Flea Circus came to town, why, Huck ran down there first thing even though he paid his last nickel to Tom for a postcard of the actress Fannie Measles. He snuck in through the back of the tent, & couldn't hardly see for the glare of all them newfangled lights flashin & all the noise & crowds of people from up & down the river roarin & shoutin & laughin & hittin each other. But by golly, sure nough, right there in the center ring walkin around in a circle on a chain with a little party hat on his head, led by a clown in an Abe Lincoln outfit, was...why, a real live sure-shootin BEAR! & that bear was growlin & mumblin...to the tune of YANKEE DOODLE! - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:05:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam joe rites, among other things: .. when three-quarters or better of the folks at a slam begin > and end on such notes, often without the slightest hint of performance > anxiety, i find mself asking, to what do we owe such unmitigated > bravery?... > probably a lot of beer. so a lot of people use slams to build up their egos. how unlike the demure and self-effacing academy; how unlike the demure and self-effacing AWP scene; how unlike other performance forms, like acting, rock & other popular musics, and "performance art," where humility and anonymity are the ruling ethos. md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:07:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: read barrows & lifts (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:05:56 -0500 (CDT) From: Christina Fairbank Chirot To: poetis@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu Subject: read barrows & lifts Re: red wheel barrows and elevators: A barrow is a grave, stones marking a grave site A red wheel barrow: a read/red grave From In the American Grain, "Founding of Quebec" chapter: The land! Don't you feel it? Doesn't it make you want to go and lift dead Indians tenderly from their graves --to steal from them --as if it must be clinging even to their corpses--some authenticity, that which-- Stealing and reading/writing-and graves--from The Great American Novel: There cannot be a novel. There can only be pyramids, pyramids of words, tombs . . . He smiled and she, from long practise, began to read to him, porgressing rapidly until she said; You can't fool me. he became very angry but understood at once that she had penetrated his mystery, that she he was staeling in order to write words. I have only taught theis poem once--this was method I used as it maeks connections among the read/red graves (read, and red as "red Indians/"dead indians")--stealing in order to write--Williams' use of womens voices ("out of the mouths of Polish mothers")(and where is Flossie's voice--)--and WCW's sense that there is an interealtionship between the landscape and the american idiom--longing for such, perhaps to steal an authenticity from Indian graves . . .which could be used for reading the Tenochtitlan chapter of In the American Garain for exaample, which he said he tried to model in paragraph structure on the structure of the masonry there-- notice also the close placement of the words "lift" and "steal" in the "Founding of Quebec \" quote above--lift is slang for steal--as well as elevators--one cd think of lifts going up and down in buildings in connection with stealing/finances/land speculations/the purchase of manhattan--and grain elevators--a hoarding of booty etc--in that hoarding, stock piling can be a form of stealing--driving up prices through shortages etc. But this approach did open quite a series of good discussions in class room. As you can think of stealing words in order to write in many relations to sampling in music and "referencing" in music videos--which now causing many legal problems, litigation/literature aspect of stealing words . . . And--the question of stealing from the dead . . . who may not be able to sue! anyway--some different approaches to directions opened by the red wheel barrow --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:08:33 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam Comments: To: Bob Holman On 19 Aug 96 at 0:37, Bob Holman wrote: > FYI, Mouth Almighty Records is releasing a WAMMO (that's the way he spells > it) album in Oct... called "The Fat-Headed Stranger" it mixes blues, grunge, > rock and uh spoken word. Even a lil ol Laurie Anderson satire. Backchannel me > a snail and I'll ship you off a copy.... No kidding! I have his previous CD (with his band W.O.R.M.) and it's dynamite. Gotta hear the new one... > Wammo himself finished second in the individuals in last year's Nationals -- > Austin looks very tough this year, w/ the WamMan as (self-annointed) Captain. Yup -- at the Slam at the Generation X-Po festival here a coupla weeks ago, the members of the Austin team won everything. I think at this point, Wammo could do "There's Too Much Light in this Bar" in his sleep, backwards, in Latvian, and still win. > as for e's experiences ("but, how to describe > this, ALL my slams were full of wierd extremes ) I say amen. This is one > reason I go to Slams. To hear new unfettered is another. To be able to say to > the poet who has talentbut got a low score that you liked the poem is also > part of it. The best poet always loses is the only rule in Slam. Yeah. There's an article on judging Slams in the latest Omnivore (put out by Su Broskowitz somewhere in Massachusetts) that shows, pretty accurately, the way that some judges do it -- and it ain't pretty. There's a hilarious article in the latest CyberSangha about a (fictitious) Zen competition. The winner bellows at everyone: "I am the most serene!" and gets high scores in levitation and enlightenment. ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:29:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam hey, what's good for the goose maria, you're right... which is why i say that slams are no better and no worse in this regard... but if i'm to take to task poetry that wallows in its own constructions (which i am, incl. mine own) why then i guess i'd ask for this sort of critical reflexiveness in all fora (incl. rock & roll---but i'd hate to erase distinctions twixt performance venues, yknow)... and which it seems to me is *not* promoted in the slam scene... or am i wrong?... mebbe it all comes down to making slams the focus of more active critical attention?... mebbe in fact this speaks to the function of criticism etc?... but then, this just means that i keep on posting!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:47:11 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: _A Humument_ pages... om Phillips' wondruffle visual work _A Humument_ has a webpage, with many images from the book: http://www.wolfenet.com/~duchamp/index.html i had just pulled my (paper) copy down th other day, after looking at some of Charles Bernstein's visual poem "veil" at the epc: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/bernstein/visual/veil.html the software charles used has some roots in CAD and draftsmen's conventions, while phillips background in drafting is aparent thruout.... anyway, id recommend th site (despite the frames...) lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:51:49 -0400 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: [fdoctor@quimor.qo.fcen.uba.ar: Postypographika update] ================= Begin forwarded message ================= From: fdoctor@quimor.qo.fcen.uba.ar (Fabio Doctorovich) To: phmenez@exatas.pucsp.br, V273FS6S@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, grosman@minerva.cis.yale.edu, huthg@nyslgti.gen.ny.us, HPOLKIN@UCSVAX.SDSU.EDU, NinthLab@aol.com, jaharvey@mindspring.com, SLeftwich@aol.com, fowler@phantom.com, pered@pinos.com, V001PXFU@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu, au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu, burgaud@euronet.nl, DreamtimeV@aol.com, davidson@cs.unca.edu, salasin@wln.com, achterwerk@pobox.com (Joop Greypink), ga04721@vnet.net (Karl Young), sanrensi@teleport.com, gyepiz@cicese.mx (Yepiz), lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu (Loss Glazier, EPC), jlehmus@cute.fi (Jukka Lehmus), jordanh@iquest.net (Jordanne Holyoak), ficus@citynet.net (Ficus Strangulensis, Transmog), ekac1@service1.uky.edu, egolomb@punto.com (Ernesto Golomb), selby@slip.net (Spencer Selby), "ted.warnell"@bbs.logicnet.com, jablonk@pi.net, jbennett@magnus.acs.ohio.state.edu Subject: Postypographika update Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 15:48 GMT-0300 I have just finished updating Postypographika, with a very EXtense and INtense virtual poetry work by L. P. Gyori. Regards to all of you! Fabio Doctorovich Postypographika http://www.postypographika.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:36:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam Joe said......" and which it seems to me is *not* promoted in the slam scene... or am i wrong?... mebbe it all comes down to making slams the focus of more active critical attention?..." That is part of how it is changing, albeit slowly, in that criticism is becoming part of the scene. Active critical attention is certainly appropriate to the scene but lettuce not forget critics by and large don't critique until something, in this case slams, is taken seriously. Perhaps we are going through a phase transition in which the need to critique & understand the slam phenom becomes self evident. Whereas before it has been much easier to dismiss. I wonder though if the economics of the academy will force this reevaluation. It seems as though from an admin point of view that having a few classes here and there concerned with perform po & slams would certainly be an attractive way to up enrollment ; ) in moribound lit departs. Why they might even have to pull in some candidates from the hinterlands of the system to keep up with the demand. and..." seems to me to further the sorts of simplistic identity formations that have in many ways vitiated all sorts of poetic constructions---making slams no worse, and no better, than much acclaimed poetry... believe me, i'm not against occasionally thundering egos saturated with political righteousness or sublime moments of resplendent logos voiced with utter and complete sincerity... but to put the matter a bit obliquely (and based on my experience): when three-quarters or better of the folks at a slam begin and end on such notes, often without the slightest hint of performance anxiety, i find mself asking, to what do we owe such unmitigated bravery?..." Simplistic identity formations engender simple people. Hence the state of the world. Umitigated bravery is easy when your preaching to the converted. An audience at a slam could not be more converted. It's easy to read some witty verse deriding the state of society to a group of sympathizers but take that same poem out onto the street corner with a megaphone and see where the bravery lies. When this starts happening, that is when it will get interesting. cf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:27:15 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: National Poetry Foundation Catalogue The NPF put out a new catalogue of its books, journals, and special sale titles in June. e-mail Gail Sapiel, sapiel@maine.maine.edu for a copy. Among several recent titles of interest to Poetics list: Lorine Niedecker: Woman and Poet, ed. Jenny Penberthy. 439pp, photos. $22.50 paper. I will be putting up a book display at Assembling Alternatives: An International Poetry Conference, Univ. New Hampshire, 29 Aug.-3 Sept. If you'd like to take a look at anything in the catalogue, just let me know and I'll bring a sample copy. Sylvester Pollet Assoc. Ed./ Acting Director National Poetry Foundation Room 302 5752 Neville Hall Orono, ME 04469-5752 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 10:49:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher J. Beach" Subject: ACLA 1997 panel As a few of you already know, this year's convention of the American Comparative Literature Association will be held in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico, from April 10-13. This year there will also be a new format of sessions, with 8-12 person "seminar" sessions in addition to the normal 3-4 person panels. I am submitting a proposal for a larger session on the topic "First World Poets/ Third World Cultures," which I think will be of relevance to the conference's overall theme, "New Worlds for Old." The panel will deal with poetry and poetics of any era, focussing on interactions between poets of the "first world" and "third world" cultures. Possible issues include cultural transmission of ideas and myths, empire and (post)colonialism, translation, use of "other" cultures to challenge or revitalize Western traditions. Papers might also explore contact(s) between poets and "third world" communities or subcultures within "first world" countries. In order to consider paper proposals for the panel, I will need paper titles and brief descriptions by September 20. These can be sent by email (backchanneled to me) or by regular mail: Professor Christopher Beach, Department of English and Comparative Literature, University of California-- Irvine, Irvine, CA 92717. I hope some of you will come up with great ideas for the session! Christopher Beach ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:51:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: hammer ref hey, rapsters out there, where exactly does hammer use the line "I'm the lyrical jesse james?" i heard it on the radio when i still had a car radio; don't remember name of song, etc. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 12:57:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: National Poetry Slam > > mebbe it all comes down to making slams the focus of more active critical > attention?... mebbe in fact this speaks to the function of criticism > etc?... > ding ding ding, as they say. you get the big cigar, joe. god love ya for it. md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:34:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: _A Humument_ pages... Luigi Bob's right about this Humument site being very very good with lots of images. Those of us who were looking for Humument criticism earlier (spring, I think) should be aware of a good intro here by Bill Hurrell, a Marvin Sackner essay, and two pieces by Daniel Traister. The (large) bibliography unfortunately seems only to be of first publications of images from the work. Bests Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 14:09:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: tom phillips Re Tom Phillips This is familiar territory to many on list, but for those who don't know it--an excellent assemblage of Phillips materials (interview, writings by Tom Phillips, essays,reviews and bibliography) is to be found in Open Letter Fourth Series, Numbers 1&2 Summer 1978: Between poetry and Painting. Other artists given similar consideration are Joe Phillips and Ian Tyson. The volume was edited by Kevin Power and is Number 7 in The Margins Symposium Series edited by Karl Young I'd highly recommend the collection to any one not yet familiar with it. Thanks to those providing Web Site information for visual poetry! Have been on prowl for these. --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:22:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the wheelbarrow Michael, et al. My wife Angela had student several years ago that told her Williams's red wheelbarrow and white chickens was all about communists and so on. Well, it was usually as hard as pulling hens' teeth to get those students to try any kind of reading or "interpretation", so something must have been up. George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:23:23 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: George Starbuck George, It is a question how old any of us might be at 26. I wasn't so young at that age, married, mortgage, one child, a few grey hairs. How young were you? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:27:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... For Rachel, if that's your real name--- >> >> >To Charles Bernstein--- >> >> > >> >> >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I >>never >> >> >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so >>dumb, >> >> >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without >> >>talking to >> >> >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! >> >> >> >> I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to >> >> me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, >> >> N.Y. >> > >> >Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in >> >Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh >> >Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the >> >hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction >> >manual. >> >> Charles, how could you!? You told me she was just an intelligent person you >> had befriended for her quick mind! I am sending your jewelry back. >> > >Some of us don't need trinkets to express the inexpressible, my dear >--what do you call yourself--Georgette? Some of us, on a summer's >eve, have the freedom of our own thoughts and need not surrender to >idle jealousies. Charles may do what he wishes with his heart; I >know I'll always have Peekskill, and my memories of the honeymoon >suite! P.S. Keep your baubles--you may need to hock them for a few >maple leaves. Oh yeah? Well, Charles told me a VERY interesting story about you and a certain Mister Joris, which I could never repeat in public. But REALLY, did you have to go to Poughkeepsie for something like that? George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 13:35:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: read barrows & lifts (fwd) >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 11:05:56 -0500 (CDT) >From: Christina Fairbank Chirot >To: poetis@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu >Subject: read barrows & lifts > > > > Re: red wheel barrows and elevators: > > A barrow is a grave, stones marking a grave site > > A red wheel barrow: a read/red grave > God! even the teachers do it now! George Bowering. "Sighing is extra." 2499 West 37th Ave., --Gertrude Stein Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 16:18:48 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Maybe Morphing Hammer Quoters? Comments: To: Maria Damon A quick Altavista search shows the text: Radical mind, day and night, all the time. Seven, fourteen, wise divine. Maniac, Brainiac, winner of the game, I'm the lyrical Jesse James. to be from "The Power" by Snap. It's in (*gulp*) the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers FAQ. ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 15:55:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: The well-read Barrow Well, yes, Mike. Two or maybe three times in the last two decades I've had students read it as a poem about Red Chinese economics -- which makes more sense, maybe, in vancouver that it does in Toronna. But not much. An ethnocentrism which gloms onto western material "progress" as the subtext of the poem. The real difficulty is getting them to see how any coded reading closes the poem down. But you get a hell of a lot of (useful) discussion in class as a result. Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 18:45:24 -0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Benedetti Subject: poetry slams I guess what I really object to is "judges" supposedly judging poetry as better or worse--or even having the entire audience "vote" and thereby judge "poetry performances" (slams)--and making the whole event competitive. Admittedly, this is my personal issue (at least)--I hate the idea of competition, ranking, judging, hierarchizing, and all the authority structures that implies--and most especially when this oppressive crap is applied to poetry readings. Criticism points out all sorts of connections, and lack of connections, (hopefully), and doesn't simple rank and judge on a scale of one to zero (or minus one). I don't mind hearing or giving a forum and some time to the most drunken lout nazi rip-off, as long as the setting is such that my poem does not have to be compared to his. All the audience can appreciate/not appreciate the work (as they do) and no ranking and judging is needed, or desired, (it seems to me)... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 20:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference (fwd) I'm not sure if Alan Golding has already resent this... but it came to poetics dugout instead -jk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 18:02:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Alan Golding To: Poetics List Subject: Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference Associate Professor of English, U. of Louisville Phone: (502)-852-5918; e-mail: acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Tom Orange's recent mention of the U. of Louisville's Twentieth-Century Lit. conference reminded me to send out my annual invitation to the list for papers and panels. Deadline is 10/1 postmark. Proposals should be mailed to the Conference Director, Harriette Seiler, Dept. of Classical and Modern Languages, U. of Louisville, Louisville, KY 40292. Anyone who needs more specifics can get them from Harriette (her e-mail: hmseil01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu) or from me. Keynote speakers this year are Bonnie Kime Scott and A Player To Be Named Later. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:12:04 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: poetry slams Ice-dancing, synchronised swimming, ballroom-dancing, debating, dog shows, surfing, gymnastics, figure-skating, are all jury-sports. Slams share their problems, or so I gather, lacking finite measures? Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 21:02:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: poetry slams as someone with such a weird ego that i can't send stuff out but need others to (i hardly even send academic papers out now; rejection is so yucky), i can relate to this. i don't know if i'd ever participate in a slam unless i were pretty well assured of the crowd as friendly etc. i realize i've been coming at this discussion as a critic/appreciator, rather than as a participant. i've been absorbing the common lore that the competitive aspect of slam is just a pretext for getting folks involved; but of course, it gets me involved as a spectator rather than as a participant. by the way, is anyone interested in publishing a 25-page paper on lenny bruce's first obscenity trial transcript as a cultural document? please only respond in the affirmative, if you've got a response. bests, maria In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I guess what I really object to is "judges" supposedly judging poetry as > better or worse--or even having the entire audience "vote" and thereby > judge "poetry performances" (slams)--and making the whole event > competitive. Admittedly, this is my personal issue (at least)--I hate > the idea of competition, ranking, judging, hierarchizing, and all the > authority structures that implies--and most especially when this > oppressive crap is applied to poetry readings. > Criticism points out all sorts of connections, and lack of > connections, (hopefully), and doesn't simple rank and judge on a > scale of one to zero (or minus one). > I don't mind hearing or giving a forum and some time to the most > drunken lout nazi rip-off, as long as the setting is such that my > poem does not have to be compared to his. > All the audience can appreciate/not appreciate the work (as they > do) and no ranking and judging is needed, or desired, (it seems to > me)... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 22:47:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kaona Subject: Re: hammer ref In-Reply-To: <3218a98c4103716@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> is it really Hammer who uses it? i know that Snap had a top-40ish song with that line in it--"I've Got the Power" was the title? On Mon, 19 Aug 1996, Maria Damon wrote: > hey, rapsters out there, where exactly does hammer use the line "I'm the lyrical > jesse james?" i heard it on the radio when i still had a car radio; don't > remember name of song, etc. > bests, maria d > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 19:48:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... George Bowering added (the bit beginning "Oh yeah?"): > > > >> >> >To Charles Bernstein--- > >> >> > > >> >> >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I > >>never > >> >> >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so > >>dumb, > >> >> >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without > >> >>talking to > >> >> >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! > >> >> > >> >> I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you mean to > >> >> me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in Wyoming, > >> >> N.Y. > >> > > >> >Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in > >> >Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh > >> >Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the > >> >hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction > >> >manual. > >> > >> Charles, how could you!? You told me she was just an intelligent person you > >> had befriended for her quick mind! I am sending your jewelry back. > >> > > > >Some of us don't need trinkets to express the inexpressible, my dear > >--what do you call yourself--Georgette? Some of us, on a summer's > >eve, have the freedom of our own thoughts and need not surrender to > >idle jealousies. Charles may do what he wishes with his heart; I > >know I'll always have Peekskill, and my memories of the honeymoon > >suite! P.S. Keep your baubles--you may need to hock them for a few > >maple leaves. > > Oh yeah? Well, Charles told me a VERY interesting story about you and a > certain Mister Joris, which I could never repeat in public. But REALLY, did > you have to go to Poughkeepsie for something like that? Poughkeepsie! That sweet city with her dreaming spires...But no, I think Charles must have me mixed up with Amy Fisher in her preteen, pre-Buttafuoco days (Pierre's the only one who REALLY knows, and HE at least is too much of a gentleman to say. Aren't you Pierre?). I deal with all of this in my sonnet series "Snorkling the Lotus," for anyone who really wants to plumb the depths of those times. "The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." I forgive you, Charles. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:24:50 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wystan Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference (fwd) Comments: To: poetics@UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Dear Alan, Give me details. Would you? Please. Thanks. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 19 Aug 1996 23:44:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: George Starbuck >George, It is a question how old any of us might be at 26. I wasn't so young >at that age, married, mortgage, one child, a few grey hairs. How young >were you? > >Tony Green, Well, I wasnt married yet. I was pretty young, actually. Hmm, 26. That was 1962. I was pretty innocent, though a heavy Olson reader. Well, some smoke. A little jazz. French movies. Didnt get to Mexico till 1963. Didnt get to Europe till 1966. Didnt get to New Zealand till 1984. Pretty innocent still. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 07:53:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: The well-read Barrow In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960819155713.271f616c@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> from "Peter Quartermain" at Aug 19, 96 03:55:02 pm > Well, yes, Mike. Two or maybe three times in the last two decades I've had > students read it as a poem about Red Chinese economics -- which makes more > sense, maybe, in vancouver that it does in Toronna. But not much. An > ethnocentrism which gloms onto western material "progress" as the subtext of > the poem. The real difficulty is getting them to see how any coded reading > closes the poem down. But you get a hell of a lot of (useful) discussion in > class as a result. > > Peter The student in my class this summer told a nightmare story of having ventured a tentative analysis of the poem only to be told by her high school teacher that she was wrong, that the poem was really about the cold war. According to my student, she gave up on poetry at that point, since she felt she was too dumb to get it. Imagine her surprise when she read _Spring and All_ and saw where the wheelbarrow actually is parked. The wide-spread nature of this particular "interpretation" leads me to suspect that there's some more systematic conspiracy behind its promulgation. I won't mention any names, but the initials "GB" came to mind right away, not withstanding public attempts on this list by certain poet/novelists in Vancouver to cast suspicion elsewhere. Skeptically, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 06:18:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: trial transcript (was Re: poetry slams) maria damon wrote: > by the way, is anyone interested in publishing a 25-page paper on lenny bruce's > first obscenity trial transcript as a cultural document? Maria, is this the trial in which the prosecutor asks a witness whether, on some particular occasion, Mr. Crotch was seen touching his bruce? Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 08:47:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: trial transcript (was Re: poetry slams) rachel l (of recent "Oh Charles" fame) rites: > maria damon wrote: > > > by the way, is anyone interested in publishing a 25-page paper on lenny > > bruce's > > first obscenity trial transcript as a cultural document? > > Maria, is this the trial in which the prosecutor asks a witness > whether, on some particular occasion, Mr. Crotch was seen touching > his bruce? > > Rachel no, but lots of other entertaining shenanigans very reminiscent of the recent culture wars and NEA/Jesse Helms stuff. at one point the judge actually quizzes the defense on the storyline of lysistrata. and the prosecution pits the "long beards at Berkeley" and the stevedores out with the boys against the regular Americans. bests, maria ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:51:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: red Indian barrow Literal statements often conceal violent analogies. --Robert Smithson In recent posts Julie Marie Schmid, George Bowering and Michael Boughn refer to Williams' "red wheelbarrow". Peter Quartermain writes of "an ethnocentrism which gloms onto western material "progress" as the subtext of the poem. The real difficulty is getting to see how any coded reading closes the poem down. The lines in the poem are: a red wheel barrow Barrow can also mean a grave site marked by stones. This grave opens up other readings in Williams' work in relation to red/read graves as "Red Indian" graves to be used in relation to "western 'progress'"and "ethocentrism": From The Great American Novel: If there is progress then there is a novel. There cannot be a novel. There can only be pyramids, pyramidsof words, tombs. From I Wanted to Write a Poem: The Tenochtitaln cahpter (in In the American Grain) was written in big square paragraphs like Inca masonry. From In the American Grain, "Founding of Quebec" chapter: The land! Don't you feel it? Doesn't it make you want to go out and lift dead Indians tenderly from their graves, to steal from them--as if it must be clinging even to their corpses--some authenticity--that which-- From The Great American Novel: He smiled and she, from long practise, began to read to him, progressing rapidly until she said: You can't fool me. He became very angry but understood at once that hse had penetrated his mystery, that she saw he was stealing in order to write words. Concealing violent analogies in a literal statement: as "the red wheelbarrow" or "a red wheel/barrow": coded readings or encoded readings . . . open many "grave" questions: From The Great American Novel: What difference is it whether I make the words or take the words. It makes no difference whatever. To steal authenticity . . . to make words . . . in relation to "the land!" Benjamin's Aura . . . and sampling, referencing in videos . . . Nations and tribes fighting for the return of bones dug up from graves in Sacred ground and placed in museums and laboratoires . . . "She saw he was stealing words in order to write" and "out of the mouths of Polish mothers" . . . A red wheel/barrow as open grave for readings . . . Walter Benjamin, "Theses on the Philosophy of History": There is no document of civilization that is not at the same time a document of barbarism . . . (A historical materialist) regards it as his task to brush history against the grain. A red wheel/barrow read in the context of Williams' writing on Indians, graves, writing and stealing may open up In the American Grain to readings that "brush history against the grain". ---dave baptiste chirot (Williams also writes of red in relation to misnamed robins in the essay "The American Background". Again, Williams is considering the relation of "the land!" to the American language, the American idiom, as he does in "The Founding of Quebec" chapter: "Here not there".) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:11:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 09:51:20 -0500 from Just to follow up on Dave Chirot's post, the phrase "so much depends" itself could be taken as an invitation tp "dig deeper". - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:51:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:11:43 EDT from Addendum to previous post: I think you have to try to find out what the author is trying to say, because it's often very specific (and you have to try, even if it's vague). This is an outdated form of litcrit for some people, I don't want to get into that... My own view is that Williams was just writing sort of an "epiphany" - the poem is the things in it, shining in the daylight, & that's all you need to celebrate. But once you get a sense (at least to your own satisfaction) of what a poem is trying to do, it's legitimate to hear other things in it, unintended meanings & overtones. That's how I read the red/Red wheelbarrow barrow "subtext". Williams quite likely heard those overtones too - but I don't see him making that under-meaning an integral part of the poem. Unless it is some kind of icon for his whole work as a poet - a wheelbarrow is literarily a laboring tool, an earth-mover, lifting the red (Native) earth barrow into view, full of life-rain, next to the (very) white chickens...poetry as wheelbarrow...very well, I contradict myself! Would take some more Williams archaeology to decide this one. My point is to look for a middle ground between "No that's NOT what the poem is about!" and "this poem means whatever I say it means". You have to look for the author's intention (though Derrida might deride). It's usually where the most subtle language effects are, anyway - depend upon it. - H. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:00:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: The well-read Barrow In-Reply-To: <199608201153.HAA27866@chass.utoronto.ca> from "Michael Boughn" at Aug 20, 96 07:53:04 am i had a student last term comment that 'the red wheel barrow' was a sonnet! i gave that student an A in the course for that. i'm just a dissertation student. so what do i know! carl ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:26:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: red Indian barrow Henry Gould writes: >the poem is the things in it Things? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:23:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: The well-read Barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:00:36 -0700 from On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:00:36 -0700 Carl Lynden Peters said: >i had a student last term comment that 'the red wheel barrow' was a sonnet! >i gave that student an A in the course for that. i'm just a dissertation >student. so what do i know! Just thought I'd warn you - heard backchannel you've been targeted by the sonnet police. You could get 14 lines to life for that. Call Langpo Central after midnight if you need a place to lose your authorial identity. - An Anonymous Friend ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:34:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:26:24 -0500 from On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:26:24 -0500 Judy Roitman said: >Henry Gould writes: > > >the poem is the things in it > > >Things? Yeah, as in "Things & arrowths of outhrageous forthune" - HG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:58:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: red Indian barrow On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 13:26:24 -0500 Judy Roitman said: >Henry Gould writes: > > >the poem is the things in it > > >Things? Yeah, as in "Things & arrowths of outhrageous forthune" - HG And the 'no ideas but in . . . ' - db ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:22:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow > Literal statements often conceal violent analogies. > >--Robert Smithson > > In recent posts Julie Marie Schmid, George Bowering and Michael >Boughn refer to Williams' "red wheelbarrow". > Peter Quartermain writes of "an ethnocentrism which gloms onto >western material "progress" as the subtext of the poem. The real >difficulty is getting to see how any coded reading closes the poem down. > > The lines in the poem are: > > a red wheel > barrow > > Barrow can also mean a grave site marked by stones. > > This grave opens up other readings in Williams' work in relation >to red/read graves as "Red Indian" graves to be used in relation to >"western 'progress'"and "ethocentrism": > That is an "opening up"? Now, what are you going to do with that red wheel. You have a problem here because the red Insians did not have a wheel, except for the toys made around Tenochtitlan. But that wheel was used only for that. It was a kind of Bare O wxh is another use of the sound "barrow". So I figure that Williams is talking about the Aztecs. And all you have to do is look at _In the American Grain_ to see his interest in the Aztecs. And of course one is tempted to call his book _In the American Grave_. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:23:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow >Just to follow up on Dave Chirot's post, the phrase "so much depends" >itself could be taken as an invitation tp "dig deeper". - Henry Gould You'll have to explain that one to me. Depends means hangs from. Dig means shove one's shovel into and lift. I dont see the invitation mentioned. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:29:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow >Addendum to previous post: I think you have to try to find out what the >author is trying to say, As an "author", I am bothered by this. Why try to see what I am "trying" to say. Why not go with what I say? George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 15:27:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:29:01 -0700 from On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 12:29:01 -0700 George Bowering said: >>Addendum to previous post: I think you have to try to find out what the >>author is trying to say, > >As an "author", I am bothered by this. Why try to see what I am "trying" to >say. Why not go with what I say? > "what the author is trying to say" - it bothers me too, now, but not for the same reason. It bothers me because it's such a tired cliche. But to try to answer your question... in a poem, like other forms of communication, but sealed in writing, the author may be trying to say about a dozen things at the same time. & sealing that in writing is not so easy, may take some trying. Especially if you're trying to say things that are not so obvious, if you're trying to say things in a new or forceful way. Of course, the author may try to say these difficult things in a way which seems fluent & easy - not so easy to do! Try & see! - Henry G ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:54:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Libbie Rifkin Subject: Berkeley 1965 Does anyone know whether there are "official" records of the proceedings of the Berkeley Poetry Conference of 1965? I've got the published transcript of Olson's speech, several anecdotal references from Ted Berrigan, and the usual mentions in literary historical accounts. Could anyone direct me to more material on the event? Perhaps there are people on the list who were there who would like to share their experiences? I'm interested in the tenor of the event as a whole--just how Zeitgeist-y it actually felt. I'm also particularly interested in the way Olson's speech was received, in whether and how Zukofsky (in his absence) played a role, and in Ed Dorn's talk on dead poets. Any info would be great. Feel free to backchannel if this doesn't seem fit for group discussion. Libbie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:00:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: from "George Bowering" at Aug 20, 96 12:29:01 pm Wow, an explication war. I was just looking for an issue of _The Explicator_. Here's how WCW explains the poem in _Spring and All_: The fixed categories into which life is divided must always hold. These things are normal--essential to every activity. But they exist--but not as dead dissections. The curriculum of knowledge cannot but be divided into the sciences, the thousand and one groups of data, scientific, philosophic or whatnot--as many as there exist in Shakespeare--things that make him appear the university of all ages. But this is not the thing. In the galvanic category of--The same things exist, but in a different condition when energized by the imagination. I think this is the final word on the damned poem, then--the wheelbarrow is a symbol for Shakespeare. Hermeneutically, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:27:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: The well-read Barrow At 02:23 PM 8/20/96 EDT, you wrote: >On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 11:00:36 -0700 Carl Lynden Peters said: >>i had a student last term comment that 'the red wheel barrow' was a sonnet! >>i gave that student an A in the course for that. i'm just a dissertation >>student. so what do i know! carl -- 'the red wheel barrow' is as on net can i get an "A" for that too? bill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:33:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: conference fwd From: Center for Advanced Feminist Studies Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:51:00 -0500 To: Multiple recipients of list CAFS-F2 Subject: Frontline Feminisms conference ------------ Forwarded Message begins here ------------ From: mwaller@mail.ucr.edu (Marguerite R. Waller) Date: Sat, 17 Aug 96 17:33:35 -0500 To: nandl@IGC.APC.ORG, m.burroughs@ulst.ac.uk, kferguso@hawaii.edu, wedo@IGC.APC.ORG, iwtc@IGC.APC.ORG, cshr@columbia.edu, Ethel_Long-Scott@bmug.org, weap@sirius.com, ileneros@cats.ucsc.edu, diamond@fox.nstn.ca, gendv@cuhk.edu.hk, Center for Advanced Feminist Studies , muhonjia@ns1.africaonline.com, yklein@dawsoncollege.qc.ca, AWHRC@phil.gn.apc.org, ZINNIA42@aol.com, mckay@plains.uwyo.edu, MEDICA@ADA.WOMAN.DE, lorentzen@usfca.edu, mjhl@queensu.ca, iucn@mos.com.np, suitcase@IGC.APC.ORG, grover@spot.Colorado.edu, mor@sfsu.edu, chinchil@csulb.edu, lpeach@UBmail.ubalt.edu, angela_davis@macmail.ucsc.edu, aihwaong@uclink.berkeley.edu, ccohn@polar.bowdoin.edu, doub@csf.colorado.edu, Bowery@aol.com, tickner@mizar.usc.edu, canela@uwashington.edu, johnson@clpgh.org, lawgroup@IGC.APC.ORG, hues.branson.org@mail.ucr.edu, kwilmot@mail.sdsu, edu@mail.ucr.edu, Babe_ZG@ZAMIR-zg.ztn.apc.org, EAST/WEST@AFSC.com, doriew@IGC.APC.ORG, Lepa-ZENSKI_CENTAR@ZAMIR-BG.ztn.apc.org, ORLANDA@aol.com, nandl@IGC.APC.ORG Cc: piya@mail.ucr.edu (Piya Chatterjee), Cheryl Harmer Subject: Frontline Feminisms conference Dear Friends, Please forgive the form letter nature of this communication. As Piya and I begin to map out the program of the Frontline Feminisms conference, I just wanted to thank all of you for your interest and to say that if you have not yet had a chance to send us a proposal and want to, we would like to have something by the end of next week. A paragraph to a page would be fine. You can send it by fax (909-787-6386), email, or snail mail (Dept. of Women's Studies, UC Riverside, Riverside, CA 92521). If we have already discussed submitting a proposal in early September, I have duly noted this. If you need more information, send a message to charmer@wizard.ucr.edu. At the same time, please take the opportunity to tell us whether and what kind of financial help you might need to attend the conference. We will make several kinds of lodging available including hotels, dormatory rooms, and the homes of hospitable community members. The airport serving Riverside most immediately is Ontario. Further details concerning transportation, housing, registration etc. will be forthcoming. Everyday seems to bring exciting news about the way the conference is shaping up. Several publishers are interested in publishing the proceedings, and we are exploring a recent offer to have the conference audio-taped with radio tie-ins. We will keep you posted, and please feel free to contact any of us at any time. Sincerely, Margie Waller, Center for Women in Coalition Marguerite R. Waller, Chair Women's Studies Department ------------ Forwarded Message ends here ------------ Karen Moon, Administrative Aide Center for Advanced Feminist Studies, University of MN 496 Ford Hall/224 Church St. SE Minneapolis, MN 55455 phone: (612) 624-6310 fax: (612) 624-3573 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:08:43 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: George Starbuck But 26 AND a poet published in a book is young enough. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:37:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Re: conference fwd Maria- Is that the same M. Waller who taught us Dante at Amherst? WLK888 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:39:48 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: red Indian barrow There is nothing in the poem, shining or otherwise. There are no things. The things are in the place where the words are heard as saying something to do with some things. The "intention" is unknowable; the various effects are all you can get. How the rhetoric results in the read effects is a matter for attention -- even though these effects are particular to this one piece. It's the only way to understand what happens to the reader as the reader reads. The "intention" comes down to the varied possibilities opened by the text. You might say that a certain breadth of possibility was the "intention" since that was the way the writer had it put in print. I'd look at it as more a question of the use of the poem, rather than the comm- unication of the thought of the author concealed behind the poem. Besides it's obvious as a doctor, Williams, with that red and white, was really thinking about red and white blood corpuscles. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:57:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Walter K. Lew" Subject: Whoops Poetics list-- I meant to back-channel that question abt the Dante course to Maria. Whatever, I realize now that it had to be a different Waller who taught it, and, just to set the record straight, we weren't Amherst College students, but attending the course through the Five College system. Ho-hum. WKL888 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:27:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow the author may be trying to say >about a dozen things at the same time. & sealing that in writing is not >so easy, may take some trying. Maybe you are almost at something there; but I still cannot help but see a patronising attitude in remarks about what the author is "trying" to say. As if the critic or teacher knows more than the author, and the author is putting up a good effort. There there, nice try, little fellow. I like to see an author that really tries. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:44:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow >Besides it's obvious as a doctor, Williams, with that red and white, >was really thinking about red and white blood corpuscles. >Tony Green, No, no, no. You will remember back before you and I were born, barbers were also surgeons--hence the white and red barber's pole. Williams the doctor was thinking about getting a haircut, and came upon this poem. The barber always asked him how he wanted the sides, and you have seen pictures of WCW. He always said, "Oh, bare," which said backward is of course "barrow." George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: imagination affirms reality "No ideas but in things." What ideas may be in a "red wheel/barrow" Olson: "istorin: to find out for oneself". WCW, Spring and All: Either to write or comprehend poetry the words must be recognized to be moving in a direction separate from the jostling or lack of it which occurs within the piece. What direction might "a red wheel/barrow" move? WCW: As birds' wings beat the solid air without which none could fly so words affirm reality by their flight. "No ideas but in things"--"to find out for oneself"--"to be moving in a direction separate . . .from the piece"--"words affirm reality by their flight". To read may be an act of the imagination that affirms the reality of the poem. To "find out for oneself", Olson's definition of history--which WCW does in In the American Grain. WCW: What difference is it whether Make the words or take the words. It makes no difference whatever. Pascal: It is not the elements which are new, but the order of their arrangement. The rain water glazing the red wheel barrow. Think of how often in WCW water is on what he sees--and how often each day as a dcotor he washed his hands--how seeing and touch in WCW are interelated, yet he is not interested in "holding on to" things: From The Descent of Winter: I make really very little money. What of it? I prefer the grass with the rain on it the short grass before my headlights when I am turning the car-- a degenerate trait, no doubt. It would ruin England. For proof look up, And read Where thou art --Ronald Johnson, Radi Os to open & to find out, to affirm reality & imagination --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 03:06:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 19 Aug 1996 to 20 Aug 1996 Dear Libbie, I would suspect that the Bancroft Library on the UC campus would have whatever "official" records there might be. Duncan was the poetry consultant to the rare books collection there (which is how they got some of those great Spicer letter/newspapers, for example). The fellow who actually coordinated it, Richard Baker, old MBA grad out of Harvard, went on to become Richard Baker-roshi, head of the SF Zen Center for many years, now somewhere in the southwest I believe. I doubt he did much in the way of archival stuff -- that's not his way. I was 18 at the time, basically unaware of the literary politics of the occasion (so that when Louis Simpson quit his job at UC and went public in the press with how that event showed that there was no place for his kind of writing in the Bay Area, it came as a shock to read this in the Chronicle--maybe if Joyce Jenkins had been around in those days). I was challenged by the awesome price (which was something like $40 for the whole conference), so hung out around events more than at them. A poet I was hanging out with, Paul X (later Xavier), had some success seducing the best mind of a certain generation, so we got to go to several parties that seemed to be a very fluid extension of the event itself. It's those parties that stand out more now in my memory than any individual event, other than sitting on the stage for Ginsberg's reading which was packed to the rafters. I was surprised (for I was very new to this -- it may have been the first "major" reading I'd ever attended) that he read "new" work (to me at least) rather than the classics of eight and nine years earlier. But the scandal of the Olson reading or the way in which Spicer was obviously ill at his reading (later reported in some depth in El Corno Emplumado, an excellent little mag out of Mexico City then edited by Margaret Randell and her husband) were lost on me. I sorta knew who Olson was, but had never heard of Spicer. I didn't discover Zukofsky until PBS did the TV show on him in 1966. Had that event occurred one year later, it would have been a completely different one for me. Such is the narrative of actual events... Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com >Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 16:54:52 -0400 >From: Libbie Rifkin >Subject: Berkeley 1965 > >Does anyone know whether there are "official" records of the >proceedings of the Berkeley Poetry Conference of 1965? I've got the >published transcript of Olson's speech, several anecdotal >references from Ted Berrigan, and the usual mentions in literary >historical accounts. Could anyone direct me to more material on the >event? Perhaps there are people on the list who were there who would like to share their experiences? > >I'm interested in the tenor of the event as a whole--just how Zeitgeist-y it actually felt. I'm >also particularly interested in the way Olson's speech was received, in whether and how Zukofsky (in his absence) played a role, and in Ed Dorn's talk on dead poets. > >Any info would be great. Feel free to backchannel if this doesn't seem >fit for group discussion. >Libbie > >------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 06:12:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: nice one, bob This week's issue of the national left-wing French weekly "Le Nouvel Observateur" has a 3-page spread on Bob Holman, subtitled "With the weapons of the enemy," doing a decent job of explaining the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, the "US of P" & Mouth Almighty, the cd venture. Nice photo, too. Plus an insert on Steve Cannon, "the angel of the Lower Eastside." Same issue has Regis Debray interviewing Benigno, one of the two survivors of the Che's Bolivian guerrilla -- both rather sour on Fidel, to say the least. -- Pierre ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:13:26 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Stockhausen in New York Hi folks, As someone who's posted often to this list about the poetics I think are derivable from Stockhausen rather than his contemporary Cage, here's a news flash one-off (I won't do it again!) ATTENTION NEW YORK STOCKHAUSEN FANS From midnight August 22 until 5:00 am August 23, WKCR-FM New York 89.9 will present the music of Karlheinz Stockhausen for 29 uninterrupted hours in celebration of his 68th birthday. We will broadcast lengthy pieces such as Hymnen, Kurzwellen, Sternklang and Stimmung that regular programming schedules do not permit etc. E-mail mbm16@columbia.edu for info.... ... transcribed from Stockhausen home page. Recommended! Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:35:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:00:47 -0400 from On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 18:00:47 -0400 Michael Boughn said: >I think this is the final word on the damned poem, then--the >wheelbarrow is a symbol for Shakespeare. Subtly drawing on the famous "graveside wheelbarrow" scene in Hamlet, when the Danish prince addresses the departed Yorick: Alas, poor Yorick, I knew thee well! Excellent spark, hale fellow and well met, Now gone fore'er into the noodling dark 'Bysm--" [Gravedigger whacks Hamlet behind the knees with red wheelbarrow] --what ho! Goes there I say! What, Thou brutish sodman, ho! Digger: M'lord, methought thy words so fitting for yon hole, I'd aid thee with a bump, right into it. Hamlet: Not yet unto the breach, my friend! [etc.] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 07:56:25 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:39:48 GMT+1200 from On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:39:48 GMT+1200 Tony Green said: >There are no things. The things are in the place where >the words are heard as saying something > to do with >some things. Don't these 2 sentences contradict each other? > >The "intention" is unknowable; the >various effects are all you can get. > How > the rhetoric results in the read effects is >a matter for attention -- even though these >effects are particular to this one piece. > > It's the only way to understand what happens to > the reader as the reader reads. > >The "intention" comes down to > the varied possibilities opened > by the text. Is this the standard way of reading poems now? Seems kind of self- limiting, despite the way it tries to make the text omni-vocal, depending on whatever the reader brings to it (SO MUCH DEPENDS!) But I would think that in order to appreciate all the "effects" of a poem, you'd want to try to hear from the author's place - from the motives & communications & craft background from which the author is coming. All the things that give you an approximation of intention, where the poet is moving. I agree with Dave Chirot that this is also limiting, that the words take off from both writer & listener in a new direction - but I think "where it's coming from" is also important. Looks like three large areas have been outlined: the author's intentions; the direction of the poem itself; & the varied responses it creates in the reader. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:10:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:27:48 -0700 from On Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:27:48 -0700 George Bowering said: > the author may be trying to say >>about a dozen things at the same time. & sealing that in writing is not >>so easy, may take some trying. > >Maybe you are almost at something there; but I still cannot help but see a >patronising attitude in remarks about what the author is "trying" to say. >As if the critic or teacher knows more than the author, and the author is >putting up a good effort. There there, nice try, little fellow. I like to >see an author that really tries. Is it patronizing to assume an effort at something difficult & extremely hard to achieve? I think the reverse is true. Of course, if you put it in the imaginary context of a critic who then sets out to "explain" in a patronizing way what the author was trying to say, you're right. But I think it's taken for granted an explication is kind of a prose trot laying out in boring detail what the poem puts together in a miraculous conjunction like an elegant theorem which leads on & on beyond explications. & the elegance of the theorem is precisely in the tenuous balance the writer achieves by TRYING to say many things at once in a flying formation. All said, however, I repeat what I said before also: you're right, "what the author is trying to say" is a terrible cliche which echoes down through ages of high school english classes. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:23:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Stockhausen in New York In-Reply-To: A still-Grateful Deadhead exiled from NY and its radio reach asks wistfully: is anybody going to be taping this? Backchannel me and we can work out a handsome reward. Hope is the thing with feathers, Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:19:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: conference fwd In message <960820233713_461620826@emout19.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Maria- > Is that the same M. Waller who taught us Dante at Amherst? > > WLK888 yeah, i think so; she went back and did film studies at some UC school, and then became a women's film studies person. teresa di lauretis started out as an italianist too. md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:23:42 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: imagination affirms reality In-Reply-To: red wheelbarrow is full of plums, plunging upon a moth how much depends on the pink church! no one to drive the car ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:31:59 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: there's nothing sentimental about a machine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 08:46:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: imagination affirms reality In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > red wheelbarrow is full of plums, plunging upon a moth > > how much depends on > the pink church! > > no one to drive the car I will I will; how pink was my crutch how red my barrow you died for my touch i will die for thee tomarrow. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:00:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Aug 1996 21:31:59 +0800 from >there's nothing sentimental about a machine I'm a little sentimental about my typewriter, a green one-of-a-kind (screw-up) Sears Constellation - & the feeling's mutual. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 09:38:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: sentimental Re: sentimental . . . but "since the world is hollow, and dollie's stuffed with sawdust," I really do not think we had better expose our feelings . . . Emily Dickinson (to her brother Austin, 1851). --dbc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 10:50:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: August by Dan Bouchard Ange Mlinko's magazine Compound Eye has dedicated its most recent issue (#10) to a long poem by Dan Bouchard, called "August." It is a very good look at Boston, and as I read it I was reminded of the work of such poets as Charles Reznikoff, Frank O'Hara, Robert Lowell, Beverly Dahlen, the list could go on quite a while, but what are influences anyway? Ghosts? Do you believe in ghosts? Like Ange, Dan pays close attention to what's going on, to what he knows, and how to make it all go together. The poem's nine pages (fifteen sections), this is section twelve: Muffled shouts of neighbors Boston is dank and dirty like a drained fish tank Skateboard kids learn their skateboard skill. Boylston Street at five. Someday anthropologists will discover the car alarm and realize how ridiculous we are, but they will note seeing-eye dogs and know how ingenious we could be. Stability or engineering erring The suitability street corner of time A place set The dinner on the table Ange is moving to Providence shortly, so probably the Compound Eye address (52 Park St, Somerville MA 02143) isn't durable. You can email me at jdavis@panix.com or Ange at Ange_Mlinko@pws.com or Dan at Daniel_Bouchard@hmco.com if you're interested in getting a copy. Okay! Jordan Jordan Davis 46 E 7 # 10 NYC 10003 jdavis@panix.com "the brat guts aesthetic" --Bob Perelman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:39:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy McClure Subject: Slams again; chicken in the classroom ...if everyone can stand just a bit more tugging on the poetry slam thread (albeit hastily knotted to the teaching thread)... >>i find mself asking, to what do we owe such unmitigated >>bravery?..." > Umitigated bravery is easy when your preaching to the >converted. An audience at a slam could not be more converted. It's easy >to read some witty verse deriding the state of society to a group of >sympathizers but take that same poem out onto the street corner with a >megaphone and see where the bravery lies. When this starts happening, that >is when it will get interesting. > >cf --just thinking about "unmitigated bravery" and "sympathizers," and also the extent to which confrontation figures into the currency of poetry slams --then to follow the notion of bravery (unmitigated and otherwise) amidst the already-converted, then to the unconverted... well, we might find the unconverted or the unsympathetic out on the street (as cf put it) but I couldn't help thinking of the classroom as well --not that I'm at all comfortable with the view of teaching poetry as missionary work but in my experience the feeling's been inevitable sometimes. While I'm all for the possibilities of slams, think they're a blast to attend, eagerly await evolving variations on the slam (as I've seen mentioned here) to show up in Chicago, any recs. anyone? ...still, I've noticed the double-standard a lot of students reveal when it comes to the reception of slam poetry and their receptiveness in the classroom --and the poetry I'm thinking of here is not so much the standard Norton stuff (from which slams provide a nice relief) but language and post-language and experimental work, in short, stuff which I consider in their issues and procedures to be confrontational --it seems a lot of the same students who go for the aggressive confrontation of slam poetry are the ones most resistant (or maybe not, maybe just the first ones to AGRESSIVELY voice their opinions, or else remain, like, passive-aggressively silent?) --or worse, they revert to easy dismissals (of pretentiousness, etc), for which I don't think slams are entirely responsible but I suspect in some instances tend to reinforce... anyway, hoping this is just an initial reaction on the students' part; when I've taught I've tried to put on a good show and likely have a performers' ego... --WM (I've seen people sign w/ quotes so here's one re: the WCW disc.): "I know my chicken, you've got to know your chicken." --Cibo Matto ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:53:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: August by Dan Bouchard In-Reply-To: Re: Jordan on August by Dan Bouchard --I think it's an extremely strong poem, very sharp with perception and rhythm-- --everyone should read it-- All Best, Joseph ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 12:25:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom wendy mcclure writes: > > --just thinking about "unmitigated bravery" and "sympathizers," and also the > extent to which confrontation figures into the currency of poetry slams > --then to follow the notion of bravery (unmitigated and otherwise) amidst the > already-converted, then to the unconverted... well, we might find the > unconverted or the unsympathetic out on the street (as cf put it) but I > couldn't help thinking of the classroom as well --not that I'm at all > comfortable with the view of teaching poetry as missionary work but in my > experience the feeling's been inevitable sometimes. While I'm all for the > possibilities of slams, think they're a blast to attend, eagerly await > evolving variations on the slam (as I've seen mentioned here) to show up in > Chicago, any recs. anyone? ...still, I've noticed the double-standard a lot > of students reveal when it comes to the reception of slam poetry and their > receptiveness in the classroom --and the poetry I'm thinking of here is not > so much the standard Norton stuff (from which slams provide a nice relief) > but language and post-language and experimental work, in short, stuff which I > consider in their issues and procedures to be confrontational --it seems a > lot of the same students who go for the aggressive confrontation of slam > poetry are the ones most resistant (or maybe not, maybe just the first ones > to AGRESSIVELY voice their opinions, or else remain, like, > passive-aggressively silent?) --or worse, they revert to easy dismissals (of > pretentiousness, etc), for which I don't think slams are entirely > responsible but I suspect in some instances tend to reinforce... anyway, > hoping this is just an initial reaction on the students' part; when I've > taught I've tried to put on a good show and likely have a performers' ego... > interesting thots. i used to have the same problem w/ resistance to langpo" in the class room etc., and don't know why it's changed, maybe because i tend to teach "women language poets" which gives a graspable ideological handle for why language must be challenged from the ground up; or maybe it's cuz i'm teaching more advanced undergrads for the most part. a lot of my students just like anything oppositional, so long as they understand the terms of the oppositionality. also, i teach folks like tracie morris and ntozake shange, who are sort of "inbetween" cases, in that they definitely defamiliarize what students have come to expect of "poetic language," and are challenging to listen as performers, but also have some discernible oratorical and vernacular tradition that bridge the gap between the wholly unfamiliar and the verbal simplicity of much "people's" poetry" and middlebrow stuff like frost, rich and sexton. also frank o'hara. some find his "cliquishness" to be "elitist" (minnesotans' favorite putdown) while others find it liberating to see what poetry can be and what constitutes legitimate material for poetic content. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:25:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow & the elegance of the theorem is precisely >in the tenuous balance the writer achieves by TRYING to say many >things at once in a flying formation. . - Henry Gould I guess we just have differing notions of where poems come from. I dont feel as if a poem is the evidence of something I am trying to say. In fact, during the composition of such a thing, I am not aware of my trying to say something; rather, I am trying to hear something, and get something down. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:27:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: red Indian barrow >>there's nothing sentimental about a machine > >I'm a little sentimental about my typewriter, a green one-of-a-kind (screw-up) >Sears Constellation - & the feeling's mutual. Your typewriter doesnt have any feeling for you; it just thinks it has. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 14:26:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:25:58 -0700 from On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 11:25:58 -0700 George Bowering said: >I guess we just have differing notions of where poems come from. I dont >feel as if a poem is the evidence of something I am trying to say. In fact, >during the composition of such a thing, I am not aware of my trying to say >something; rather, I am trying to hear something, and get something down. At least we're both trying. Probably very trying. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:00:15 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Scandalous Olson at Berkeley? Dear Ron, the position of eye-witness is shown to be what it is by your comment on the Berkeley Poetry Conference: dependent on the preparedness of the eye-witness. Wystan gave me a copy of the original printing of the Olson reading, one that he had found in San Francisco in the 70's. Innocently, I had not realised -- until it was mentioned by you -- that there was any scandal attached to it. Far far from the action I had assumed that it was understood at the time and at the place. It seemed to me to raise the question of what was the poem and what was the reading, where to draw the line. Was it the whole performance of the poet live on the platform. The kind of ruminating thought and the writing of poems in Olson's practice seemed to converge there. The cries of "read the poem" etc from audience seemed to speak to a confusion about what the condition of making poetry was, extending as it did there to a long improvisation, which from time to time included the occasional reading of already written and printed products of this process. (Criticised and revised as a process in the Beloit lectures.) That was scandalous? Although it does not coincide with practices of quertzblatz poetry of the later 70s and 80s, which appeared to prefer constructed texts to improvisation, does this practice of Olson's (as I understood it) seem to be scandalous anymore? To whom was it scandalous in 1965? Was it scandalous that the improvisations were critical and in a broad sense philosophical and sometimes commenting on politics and not in verse form, therefore "not poetry"? Would it be scandalous to the slammers? best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:03:07 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: red Indian barrow and he had a shampoo too, that's what the water is doing in the poem Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:11:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom Wendy writes "...still, I've noticed the double-standard a lot of students reveal when it comes to the reception of slam poetry and their receptiveness in the classroom --and the poetry I'm thinking of here is not so much the standard Norton stuff (from which slams provide a nice relief) but language and post-language and experimental work, in short, stuff which I consider in their issues and procedures to be confrontational --it seems a lot of the same students who go for the aggressive confrontation of slam poetry are the ones most resistant (or maybe not, maybe just the first ones to AGRESSIVELY voice their opinions, or else remain, like, passive-aggressively silent?) --or worse, they revert to easy dismissals (of pretentiousness, etc), for which I don't think slams are entirely responsible but I suspect in some instances tend to reinforce..." I think this is pretty straightforward. Following on the heels of the thread concerning red wheelbarrows and even the reference to the rap of Snap! it follows that the majority of teaching when it comes to the introduction of poetry in the United States at a young age comes through the filter of "this is what the poet is trying to say" and "this is the coding necessary to understand that poem". Both of these statements set in place the mindset and world view for both rap and slam poetry. Rap / slam has as one of its defining attributes an active hostility to the notion of coding. The defining attribute is IMHO narrative and any poem which subverts or too easily confuses the narrative thrust is suspect and falls beyond the pale for the genre of rap / slam. The methodology of "this is what the poet is trying to say" and "this is the coding necessary to understand that poem" is disempowering to the reader and serves as the political springboard for rap / slam which has as its concern the destruction of this disempowerment. The case 'may' be accurately represented that once a child has gotten to the point where they are empowered with language and feeling 'in control' poetry is introduced in a manner which "disempowers" them by delegating control of the coding process to the authority figure of the teacher. Crude rhyming and inelegant wordplay are quite often the 'language' point used to support the 'political' point of empowerment and releasing of rage because this complex serves as antidote to the aforementioned methodology. The points of empowerment follow closely the narrative thrust because it is neccessary to show that "you understand what's going on" despite assurances from the teacher (poetry), politician (society), preacher (spirituality), that "you don't know what's going on" unless you are given the key (i.e. coding). It follows as well that rhyming and alliteration, etc. are the tools employed because it is absolutely necessary that the tools of the oppressor - subjugation, rhyme, alliteration et al. be used to defeat those who would disempower 'you'. Given this reading, IMHO, it makes perfect sense why langpo is received with hostility within the genre / world view of rap / slam. yours until we bleed, cf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:17:23 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: red Indian barrow Henry, Re things and no things in red weel barrow poem(s) No contradiction, maybe a little paradox. The poem, is full and empty, made of words and spaces, not of things. The "things" are what you put into an image you make reading the poems. Even those are not things in any very secure sense. This is further proof of the difficulty of speaking adequately about representations, mediation and/or figuration. One way to handle that is to have regard both for the process of making a representation and the process of "reading" one, trying to maintain what clarity one can all the way. This is not made easier by using the term "things", but harder, as this exchange shows all too clearly. Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:35:36 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: red Indian barrow Henry, some more: "Is this standard way of reading poems now?" ---?@#%ed if I know. (How would I know, I don't read poems for a living? " Que scais-je? " with a cedilla.) My business with this is the common problem in the arts, representation". What is the common understanding then of reading/writing, it is not moving through text? t is not surprising that the figure of a "writer" occurs to the reader as a centre for coherence of text, but the "writer" is limited to being a figure appearing to the reader. Isn't that so? Dr Williams cannot cure you of uncertainty as to the meaning of the text, I suppose. But isn't it also the case that the "reader" is also a similar "figure", not a single centered "I", rather something called into existence by the text. Coping with the text, or not, is, in that case, a matter of how effectively you can be the necessary kind of "reader" figure to read that text. This is how I figure it, but I suppose this is a complicated kind of answer for e-mail. And subject to really too many unanswered questions. best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:48:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: chickens Hey! I thought that was Bob Dole's job, trashin teachers . . . A teacher can also teach you "to find out for yourself". It is not they duty to complete the work, nor art thou free to desist from it. Love work, hate mastery. --Rabbinical sayings --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:53:07 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: red Indian barrow George, "hearing something" and "getting it down" squares with my understanding of what goes on. I believe there is a confusion about purposes emerging (Henry's confusion, not yours, needless to say). There is a certain satisfaction in philosophically analytical writing in applying rhetoric to getting an argument made effectively. Reading that writing that does that, one asks all the time about the implications for an argument of what is being said, the significance and multiplicities and ambiguities of "words" meanign of words used as "counters" or "terms. The poetries that aim to set down language (thought?) as it occurs are not usually so concerned with words as terms in an argument. Trying to read them as if they were, and taking the prose of analytical argument and communication as standard and universal produces Henry's sense that WCW in red wheel things has cunningly compressed a lot of argumentation or argumentative thinking. Hi, Henry are you still there? best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:00:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: the well-read barrow yet again At 03:27 PM 8/20/96 EDT, Henry wrote: > in a poem, like other forms >of communication, but sealed in writing, the author may be trying to say >about a dozen things at the same time. & sealing that in writing is not >so easy, may take some trying. Especially if you're trying to say things >that are not so obvious, I may have missed a few posts on this, since this, Henry, but I think your phrasing here sure opens a can of worms. 1. I'm not at all persuaded that a poem is a "form of communication," -- or rather, I'm not at all sure what exactly "communication" might mean when it comes to poems -- not, I'd say, the sort of instrumental language of "Doctor, I get a pain just here when I put my left elbow in my Mouth" kind of thing, nor even that of "The whites have slaughtered the Indians" (not that anyone here, I know, has been suggesting this is the "theme" of that Indian Barrow). A poem is a machine made of words, I thought. Perhaps in the sense of Hamlet, to Ophelia, "Yours, whilst this machine is to him, Hamlet." 2. Ditto re "sealed in writing." This suggests, does it not, some sort of immutability to a "message" or "content" that the poem somehow, hmmm, "contains"? Or does "sealed" mean "hermetically" and therefore "inaccessibly" sealed? 3. My own reading practice involves -- at least in part and so far as I am able without being utterly pedantic about it (whatever pedantic means here -- probably means "until I can't be bothered any more") -- an attempt to "historicize" the text: for instance (though this is clearly a childish and utterly simplistic example) was "red" associated with revolution or with communism in 1921 when WCW wrote the poem (we all know the answer to that one, of course)? This is important to me because it's self-evident to me that I know "more" than the poet knew -- by "more" here I mean something as simple as "what the poet did not [and perhaps could not] know," and sometimes we (I) need to rescue the poem from our knowledge. The corollary is obvious: the poet knew "more" than I do.. At the same time, though, my own response when I read the poem -- especially but not only for the first time -- may or may not have anything to do with the actual compositional circumstance and history of the poem: the words say what they say. The first time I read any Jabes, for instance, I had no idea AT ALL who he was, thought he was possibly Spanish or even Biblical. And that image of him still sticks, willynilly, when I think of him / his work. And what then is getting "communicated"? It seems to me that when Bruce Andrews writes, as a complete poem, "lost & found", he shows with great exactitude how what is "communicated" depends on the context of the hearer/reader as well as of the utterer/writer: meaning depends on context, I think Maria Damon said on another thread not too long ago, and it sure as sure doesn't exist "out there" somewhere, all us poor folks scrambling round to find out what it is so we don't get left out in the cold when gift-giving time comes round. But of course, what I say is too simple anyway. Henry, or should I say Mike Boughn?, you opened up an inexhaustible can of worms. ------ This post may be a little heavy-duty I guess for the great delights I've seen in this thread so far, but I don't apologise for that. Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 17:43:50 -0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Benedetti Subject: So much depends So many adult diapers upon the red wheelbarrow ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:12:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: one block over >Date: Tue, 20 Aug 1996 23:44:34 -0700 >From: George Bowering >Subject: Re: red Indian barrow > >>Besides it's obvious as a doctor, Williams, with that red and white, >>was really thinking about red and white blood corpuscles. > >>Tony Green, > > >No, no, no. You will remember back before you and I were born, barbers were >also surgeons--hence the white and red barber's pole. Williams the doctor >was thinking about getting a haircut, and came upon this poem. The barber >always asked him how he wanted the sides, and you have seen pictures of >WCW. He always said, "Oh, bare," which said backward is of course "barrow." someplace in the neighborhood of this thread belongs Kenneth Koch's story of doing a mini-residency somewhere, and attending a lecture, about his work, in which the professor carefully explicated "Permanently" to his students: the noun representing Christ, the adjective the Holy Ghost (or whatever); & etc. others might have heard the story more recently and be able to tell it better. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:12:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Tangents R Us Ron (S) wrote: > Duncan was the poetry >consultant to the rare books collection there (which is how they got >some of those great Spicer letter/newspapers, for example). The fellow >who actually coordinated it, Richard Baker, old MBA grad out of >Harvard, went on to become Richard Baker-roshi, head of the SF Zen >Center for many years, now somewhere in the southwest I believe. I >doubt he did much in the way of archival stuff -- that's not his way. does anyone actually know what SW spot Baker-roshi is actually in? "just this this" Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1996 23:12:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: my cat Geoffrey Peter Q wrote: >1. I'm not at all persuaded that a poem is a "form of communication," -- or >rather, I'm not at all sure what exactly "communication" might mean when it >comes to poems -- re which see a great essay, Hartman's "IA Richards and the Dream of Communication" (in /The Fate of Reading/? or /Beyond Formalism/?) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:39:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: my cat Geoffrey In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19960821231351.4577e982@mail.azstarnet.com> from "Tenney Nathanson" at Aug 21, 96 11:12:50 pm > Peter Q wrote: > > >1. I'm not at all persuaded that a poem is a "form of communication," -- or > >rather, I'm not at all sure what exactly "communication" might mean when it > >comes to poems -- > > re which see a great essay, Hartman's "IA Richards and the Dream of > Communication" (in /The Fate of Reading/? or /Beyond Formalism/?) Yeah. It's in _The Fate of Reading_. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 07:52:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:11:13 -0800 from On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 13:11:13 -0800 filch said: > >The methodology of "this is what the poet is trying to say" and "this is >the coding necessary to understand that poem" is disempowering to the >reader and serves as the political springboard for rap / slam which has as >its concern the destruction of this disempowerment. The case 'may' be >accurately represented that once a child has gotten to the point where they >are empowered with language and feeling 'in control' poetry is introduced >in a manner which "disempowers" them by delegating control of the coding >process to the authority figure of the teacher. There's a lot of truth to this, but it also seems one-dimensional to read the classroom simply as a power structure and poems as power codes. It sets up a binary "dialectic", like beats & new critics, that makes for easy academic readings after the fact ("codes"?), with beats & new critics completely symbiotic (where would the beats be without their establishment foils? where would slams be without high school english class? etc.) I remember nothing more boring, depressing & disempowering than 9th grade english teach asking, "Well, what's the poet trying to say here?" But then again, there's always the option to take him or her up on the call & "try" to figure it out. > >coding). It follows as well that rhyming and alliteration, etc. are the >tools employed because it is absolutely necessary that the tools of the >oppressor - subjugation, rhyme, alliteration et al. be used to defeat those >who would disempower 'you'. This is ironic because a lot of the "coding" in traditional poetry that is the most interesting is political coding, that "tries" to undermine specific political oppressors & social repressions. They who have ears to hear, let them hear (saith the preacher). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:18:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:35:36 GMT+1200 from On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:35:36 GMT+1200 Tony Green said: > > My business with this is >the common problem in the arts, >representation". What is the common >understanding then of reading/writing, >it is not moving through text? >t is not surprising that the figure of a "writer" > occurs to the reader >as a centre for coherence of text, but the "writer" > is limited to being a figure appearing to the reader. > Isn't that so? Dr Williams cannot >cure you of uncertainty as to the meaning of the text, I suppose. > >But isn't it also the case that the "reader" is also a similar >"figure", not a single centered "I", rather something called into existence >by the text. Coping with the text, or not, is, in that case, a matter >of how effectively you can be the necessary kind of "reader" figure >to read that text. This all makes a lot of sense to me. I'm one on this list well-known for re-stating new critical truisms as though deconstruction etc. never happened. Master-oversimplificator. But in spite of uncertainty, I still tend to read poems on a basic level, as a practitioner. & as a practitioner I'm moving in certain directions, drawing on past methods & hangups & patterns, & adding new things, & I tend to read other poets the same way - & try to see what they're doing. Mandelstam writes about future literary studies as pursuing the "impulse" behind the text. Maybe that's part (only part) of what he's talking about. (It certainly isn't an autobiographical impulse he's referring to.) - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:28:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: red Indian barrow In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:53:07 GMT+1200 from On Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:53:07 GMT+1200 Tony Green said: > > The poetries that aim to set down language (thought?) as it occurs >are not usually so concerned with words as terms in an argument. >Trying to read them as if they were, and taking the prose of analytical >argument and communication as standard and universal produces Henry's >sense that WCW in red wheel things has cunningly compressed a lot of >argumentation or argumentative thinking. > >Hi, Henry are you still there? best Am I still here? Why, all of us from Zircon-12 never leave our e-posts. The fourth eyeball helps (replaceable). I don't see it as exactly hearing something, nor as compressed argument. More like weaving or architecture - a lot of strands that suddenly find conjunctions that hold each other up in an artful (pseudo-argumentative) way. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:32:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: the well-read barrow yet again In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:00:38 -0700 from On Wed, 21 Aug 1996 15:00:38 -0700 Peter Quartermain said: >At 03:27 PM 8/20/96 EDT, Henry wrote: > >I may have missed a few posts on this, since this, Henry, but I think your >phrasing here sure opens a can of worms. well, as Shakespeare tries to tell us, "a poem, forsooth - tis but a can of worms made of words." >Indian Barrow). A poem is a machine made of words, I thought. Perhaps in >the sense of Hamlet, to Ophelia, "Yours, whilst this machine is to him, >Hamlet." Machines can talk. Some even have feelings - just ask my typewriter. > >2. Ditto re "sealed in writing." This suggests, does it not, some sort of >immutability to a "message" or "content" that the poem somehow, hmmm, >"contains"? Or does "sealed" mean "hermetically" and therefore >"inaccessibly" sealed? Mandelstam: "I say again: I will liken the poem to an Egyptian ship of the dead, in which everything necessary for life is stored." >At the same time, though, my own response when I read the poem -- especially >but not only for the first time -- may or may not have anything to do with >the actual compositional circumstance and history of the poem: the words say >what they say. The first time I read any Jabes, for instance, I had no idea >AT ALL who he was, thought he was possibly Spanish or even Biblical. And >that image of him still sticks, willynilly, when I think of him / his work. I agree with you. This is what I said in a post yesterday: there's the impulse of the poet, there's the free poem itself, there's what the reader brings to it. > >And what then is getting "communicated"? It seems to me that when Bruce >Andrews writes, as a complete poem, "lost & found", he shows with great >exactitude how what is "communicated" depends on the context of the >hearer/reader as well as of the utterer/writer: meaning depends on context, That's what makes the poet's job interesting. It's why s/he has to "try" so hard. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 05:12:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Scandalous Olson at Berkeley? Tony Green wrote (in part): > Although it does not coincide with practices of quertzblatz poetry of > the later 70s and 80s, which appeared to prefer constructed texts to > improvisation, does this practice of Olson's (as I understood it) > seem to be scandalous anymore? To whom was it scandalous in 1965? I don't know about scandalous, but I can say that it was extremely upsetting to Robert Duncan on that occasion--he left the reading. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 06:38:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 Libbie, Ron was 18, I was 17 (and didn't know Ron, or anyone else; some things don't change). Since I had been wrapped up in the Don Allen anthology--to the point of having to hold it together with a rubber band--being in rooms with these people had me completely agog. In retrospect I can see that it was a bit of a childhood fantasy: watching a book come to life. Unfortunately, because I *was* 17, half the time I had no idea what I was seeing/hearing. Stuff I remember vividly (be warned that this will have the spotty quality of real memory): Creeley and I believe Dorn in a small classroom, and Creeley commenting on the irony and perhaps pity of holding this event at the University of California (this in the context of the Free Speech Movement, of course). Sitting right behind Bobbie Creeley in that small classroom. Why is this as available as yesterday? Perhaps because I was in a state of near-religious ecstasy...I mean, the actual Bobbie of _For Love_ (okay, you can laugh). Beatrice. Duncan sweeping around in his cape. His extremely--eccentric--reading style. Walking from one place to another with the group, and noticing Robin Blaser's beauty. Ted Berrigan reading. A revelation! (Went home and ordered a mimeo, I think, copy of _The Sonnets_, heartbreakingly eaten by insects on the island of Oahu circa 1977.) Lenore Kandel reading, I think at the same event? In this case not so much the poetry, but the energy, the buzz from the breaking of language taboos. Probably also vivid because it is a woman speaking. The Olson reading: mostly I can just see that commanding figure. I had no idea of the subtext, and remember being somewhat outraged by the audience. Duncan walked out (with others?). I took notes during all of this (and during the conference as a whole) but can only shudder to think what sort of notes I might have taken at 17. May be able to find these if I undertake an archaeological dig of my notebooks. Watching Kenneth Anger movies. This can't have been part of the event proper, but I think a lot of poetry people were there. And that's about it for the vivid stuff. I paid $45 at an office on Oxford St., I think, for all this--I know it was $45 because I still have my ticket (according to the ticket, which does specify "Berkeley Poetry Conference [Seminars] July 12-23, 1965," there was also a $25 option). I keep thinking that somebody might want to use this ticket if there's ever an exhibit on the conference. Let me know. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:48:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: "this is the coding necessary to understand that poem" I'm not prepared to accept this subject line as a baseline for the discussion of poetry. As Maria pointed out or quoted earlier (and I'm sure I'm bending the meaning) there is an aesthetic judgment in every judgment--and since we can read anything in terms of any category--for instance, the picture of a self we get from Bruce Andrews, society in Susan Howe, passion in Paul Muldoon--and I'm probably not prepared to accept someone else's we, either--since anything can be read in terms of any category, a reader, one has to decide whether to do the charitable thing and decode the categories the writer is choosing to work in, on, through, or whether to read the writer's work in contexts of one's own devising. This latter choice I take it leads to that hallucinatory wheelbarrow. Does it lead there necessarily? Or is there a set of critical selves one can bounce among that will occasionally push one into the bumpers of the writer's categories and then into the bonus targets of the world. CODES AT WORK (PLAY?) HERE: reading as pinball wheelbarrow thread (dbc, gb, hg, tg, pq, md, cf, etc) the "bruce problem" "the brat guts aesthetic" Critique of Judgment Isenberg, Mothersill Which is to say, you read, you have taste, a taste anyway, and you argue for it. One does. Does it preexist, does it develop, bleagh. Not the issue. The issue is that it is there, one participates in one's own taste, even when one rejects bland unexamined instances of other peoples' taste or 'sensibility'. So. One is open to evaluation on the terms of all categories at all times. That is, one is available to be read by anybody always already cough. One may wish to resist, to preserve the integrity of that reading through closing gestures, error, erasure, hermeticism, ironic cuteness/ugliness, but this may prove to be paranoia. What is at stake in any reading, what power is there, why am I for one struggling so much to achieve it/dismantle it. I suppose asking questions is the best way to centralize power. Was Kurt Cobain a practitioner of the New Sentence? Are you still reading. Is that a question it is important to ask? Shall we overpraise the present and be done with it. Am I grateful for the simultaneous expansion of vocabulary and relaxation of the sentence. Yes. I am grateful for the opportunity to use any word I hear in any sort of sentence I want to write. Am I even more grateful for the words I like best, and the opportunity not to finish my sentences. Yes I am even more grateful. Why. Because those give me more. That is, the cadence, the development of the cadence. Grr. Does one feel the urge to be 'compulsively readable'. Break it up. Does one feel the urge to ride a power mower. Oar hour. Does one have to include more or less than is expected. Does one have to include exactly as much as expected. Who is expecting? Blush. No, no news. But what if there were. Would it be verboten, aesthetically, intellectually? What part of the bandwidth permits that news its nonstatistical centrality. This does seem a live issue. I am not asking. Pause. Jordan Jordan Davis 46 E 7 # 10 NYC 10003 jdavis@panix.com and moved to the burbs, where we eat wild blueberries every night and shoot raccoons. --Ange Mlinko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:56:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom In-Reply-To: A few thoughts on coding: 1) Is rap really that transparent? I often find myself smiling at my ignorance as I listen to it. Coding doesn't strike me as uniquely a tool of power in that sense. Think, too, of the codedness of early Stein, about which Catherine Stimpson has written well. 2) Probably the experience that got me into this mess was "decoding" poems (and novels) in high school. I remember Kubla Khan in particular: we had a field day. Of course, I had a good teacher, and that makes all the difference. But the message was unmistakeably, there's more here than meets the eye. He--Mr. Moceri, for the record, aka Mr. Mo, of Parkway North Senior High, Creve Coeur, MO--had a way of just reading the poem aloud that nudged us to come to terms with what more might in fact be there. So, framing my answer in good Jeopardy fashion, isn't there a difference between the impetus to decode (which, it seems to me, we have to do all the time, in life and in poems) and the spirit in which we go about our decoding (roughly, liberally or restrictively)? Best to all-- Jonathan Levin By the way: went to one slam about four or five years ago and had a wonderful time--it made more of an impression on me than most readings. Maggie Estep won (at the Nuyorican), deservedly. It was excellent theatre. I have to admit, I don't absorb poetry terribly well at readings, but I remember an astonishing amount of poetry from that night, including one introductory piece (out of competition) that began, roughly, The lions at the New York Public Library roar at me when I walk by them. Anybody know who/what that was? What was so striking was the way this relatively small guy (as I remember him, at least) let loose this, well, roar of words. I was convinced, immediately, that these folks were restoring something vital. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 09:40:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom jlevin writes: > A few thoughts on coding: > > 1) Is rap really that transparent? I often find myself smiling at my > ignorance as I listen to it. Coding doesn't strike me as uniquely a tool > of power in that sense. Think, too, of the codedness of early Stein, > about which Catherine Stimpson has written well. i agree; rap is often delivered at a speed and with vernacular inflections that act as real defamiliarizations (for me anyway) of a language i usually think i know. and isn't "defamiliarization" an old r-formalist hobby horse characteristic of "literary"/poetic language? sometimes its messages appear to be straightforward expressions of anger (fuck tha police etc) but there's much more to it than that, lots of intertextuality (sampling) that presumes a deep insider knowledge etc... md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 08:44:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julia Stein Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 20 Aug 1996 to 21 Aug 1996 > Libbie asks re the 1965 Berkeley poetry conference, Perhaps there are people on the list who were there who would >like to share their experiences? >> >I was at the Berkeley poetry conference as an eighteen year old. It was also >my first poetry reading, first poetry conference, etc. It was right after I >got arrested at Free Speech Movement in December so the spring had a certain >magical feeling as the whole campus was changing. It seemed like the whole >universe was changing quickly--a very wacky and wonderful feeling of the >universe opening up. The poetry conference fit right in. I remember the Ginsberg reading was packed. I mean packed. Ginsberg read this incredible poem about just being crowned king of May in Prague by the Czech students, then getting arrested by the Czech police, thrown onto to plane & thrown out of the country. He was yelling & angry & tremendous. His reading was part of the zeitgeist--here at Berkeley we students had stood up & gotten arrested. And in Czechoslovakia the Czech students had also stood up & had to face their police. Ginsberg's reading was a preview of coming attractions. I also heard Lenore Kendale--she was the only woman poet I remember. I was fascinated to hear her read in a poem about washing dishes! Terrific. I hadn't read any woman poets before. Now here was a live woman poet! Inspring! I heard Olsen read--is that what you meant by Olsen's speech? I didn't know who he was--just knew about the beats.He was a Big Man. He read & drank from a bottle of whiskey in one of the auditoriums. It was shocking and wonderful, as you weren't supposed to drink whiskey in a classroom. He kept on reading & drinking. He got drunk. We in the audience loved it. A little dean in a suit came in, to try to stop the reading. We in the audience were against him & with the Big Drunken Poet. The little dean (I called him a deanlet) went up the the Big Poet & tried to get him to stop. We in the audience booed. The little dean slunk away in deafeat. We in the audience felt: another victory for students! Olsen kept reading and drinking. It was a wonderful experience--oh yes, it fit right into the zeitgest. Bye, Julie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 11:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Chax e-mail? In-Reply-To: Hey poetics people, Please indulge one who's been ill--can Charles Alexander still be reached at chax@mtn.org, or does he have a new e-address to go with his "real" address in spatial "reality"? Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:03:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: argument > The poetries that aim to set down language (thought?) as it occurs >are not usually so concerned with words as terms in an argument. >Trying to read them as if they were, and taking the prose of analytical >argument and communication as standard and universal produces Henry's >sense that WCW in red wheel things has cunningly compressed a lot of >argumentation or argumentative thinking. Tony and others -- this particular strain (poetry and argument) has always interested me. I'm wondering to what extent a poem like WCW's (and much of his work) can be read as argumentative without relying on the standards of analytical argument and communication that otherwise might inform a reading. To disagree a bit, i find that many of the poetries that "aim to set down language (thought) as it occurs" are very much concerned with words as terms in an argument. But admittedly, the nature of the argument is a bit different, skewed from the conventional sense of how argumentative rhetoric works. I'm thinking of the work of Lyn Hejinian and bpNichol in particular (tho there are several other possible examples)--two strategies in writing that i would say approach language from an argumentative angle, Hejinian's through the logic (illogic) of association, Nichol's through paragrammatic play--but both "following a line" to suggest a point or several points (if not a neatly resolved conclusion). A good reading on my part leads to a place where i "get the argument," although i may not be able to trace its development via conventional modes (cause/effect, etc.). So i wonder how a statement like "all writing is argumentative" would be met and challenged. For me it would be helpful to expand the notion of argument to include more than just the Aristotelian variety. bill marsh ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 13:14:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: argument In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:03:23 -0700 from Interesting bk on this is Jonathan Kertzer, Poetic Argument McGill-Queens U. Press, 1988. though I think he takes narrower position than you (values poems that make some kind of real argument). (I could be wrong - read it a long time ago!) also think of von Hallberg's book on Olson where he talks about 1st part of Maximus as in form of classical oration. - Monk #12-b flat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 12:41:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: c/od-ing, hide in plain sight re: c/od-ing; Hide in plain sight Not only do the words change meanings but meanings vary locally at the same time. A final glossary, there, cannot be made of words whose intentions are fugitive. William S.Burroughs, Junkie (Insofar as nobody loves my dashes anyway, I'll use regular punctuation for the new illiterate generation.) Jack Kerouac, Vanity of Duluoz Gertrude Stein wrote that on first seeing camouflaged tanks, Picasso said, It is we who made that. There are many essays on the problem of determing what is rock art and what is simply natural formations and markings made by weather and chemical interactions among minerals. Who runs may read --Gertrue Stein And read where thou art --Ronald Johnson --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 10:48:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: filch Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom I did not mean to imply that rap was transparent. Nor is slam poetry transparent. I was directly referring to the disparaging remarks earlier in this thread concerning "tacky rhymes" at slams as emblematic of the genre. The coding of rap is an extremely interesting topic. I still believe it is distinctly different in intent than coding in langpo. "act as real defamiliarizations (for me anyway) of a language i usually think i know." Very good point. >1) Is rap really that transparent? I often find myself smiling at my >ignorance as I listen to it. Coding doesn't strike me as uniquely a tool >of power in that sense. Think, too, of the codedness of early Stein, >about which Catherine Stimpson has written well. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 14:54:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: argument Instead of "argumentative," how about "didactic"? > >Tony and others -- this particular strain (poetry and argument) has always >interested me. I'm wondering to what extent a poem like WCW's (and much of >his work) can be read as argumentative without relying on the standards of >analytical argument and communication that otherwise might inform a reading. >To disagree a bit, i find that many of the poetries that "aim to set down >language (thought) as it occurs" are very much concerned with words as terms >in an argument. But admittedly, the nature of the argument is a bit >different, skewed from the conventional sense of how argumentative rhetoric >works. I'm thinking of the work of Lyn Hejinian and bpNichol in particular >(tho there are several other possible examples)--two strategies in writing >that i would say approach language from an argumentative angle, Hejinian's >through the logic (illogic) of association, Nichol's through paragrammatic >play--but both "following a line" to suggest a point or several points (if >not a neatly resolved conclusion). A good reading on my part leads to a >place where i "get the argument," although i may not be able to trace its >development via conventional modes (cause/effect, etc.). So i wonder how a >statement like "all writing is argumentative" would be met and challenged. >For me it would be helpful to expand the notion of argument to include more >than just the Aristotelian variety. > >bill marsh --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:56:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom yeah, that's just it---from one pov, it's ALL coded... one dominant gradient in our public discourses asks us to construe meaning-making as a process of en/decoding... part of this is a consequence (broadly) of information technologies... you've all heard this before---'the information is encoded, transmitted through a conduit, and emerges at the other end to be decoded'... but to say this is to recognize, as well, the specifically political dimension of communications apparatus... b/c the question, as a few folks have suggested, becomes a matter of who possesses the intelligence or counterintelligence cheat-sheet---who's doing the en/decoding?... nevertheless, this is a powerful means of manipulating demographics, of transforming specific information into specific insider(-outsider) knowledges... what it's all about, in more dystopic terms, is constructing audiences-markets predisposed to responding (or consuming) along certain coordinates---political speeches, cereal boxes, poems, what have you... i don't wish at all to naysay anybody's particular transgressive-resistance hobbyhorse---but so long as you play primarily to this latter grid, you're probably enjoying the interpretive fruits of a statistically-conceived reality the likes of which one sees at work in every nook and cranny of a vegas casino... some of what comes out of such transactions *can* be of value, yes... now, whether or how meaning is made is not necessarily the same thing as persuasion... but if you persuade folks to make meaning in accordance with an a=b rhetoric (-logic), it's likely their general response to the meaning process itself can eventually be controlled... that is, you persuade folks to accept thus & so *as* persuasion, however familiarizing or defamiliarizing... it seems to me that, in general, the performative these days seems to be taken as itself (regardless *what's* said or acted or ____) a measure of persuasive validity... again: elizabeth dole may only have simulated a get-down-and-dirty-with-the-people talk, but it mattered little---the gesture itself, by stepping outside of standard performance criteria for convention speeches, rec'd goo-goo-eyed acclaim even by more experienced broadcast journalists... which i trust won't be taken as an argument against persuasive poetics as such... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:15:15 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: argument re William Marsh on argumentation: yep, MORE than the Aristotelian variety, will do for a start. Or the Cartesian variety? Argument in Lucretius is a classic instance isn't it of an argumentational poetry? (or so I somewhat vaguely recall). Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:06:14 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tony Green Organization: The University of Auckland Subject: Re: argument I like "didactic" in there as a possible alternative, Judy. Could you say some more? best Tony Green, e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 18:08:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: argument At 10:15 AM 8/23/96 GMT+1200, Tony Green wrote > Argument in >Lucretius is a classic instance isn't it of an argumentational >poetry? (or so I somewhat vaguely recall). So's Samuel Daniel of slightly more recent date, in some of his (gasp!) sonnets. Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 22 Aug 1996 21:46:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: that lions poet I think, Jonathan, you're thinking of Regie Cabeco, who does have a NY public library poem. The issue of conception/abortion of the anterior anteater at readings (Atrides) SOS an interesting one, and the cooing of the glam poets does E.T. some wrong ecco the haole incandescent chyme traduction. No, Beck takes that slack. No coding gets a strong get-go of Anbesol, let alone that erudition. But as Plato told us, Galway's mnemonic quicksand bellows to the world! Uh, no, he didn't. (The novel Coors there is a 'where's waldo' Sen Sen I had listing to Raster Man, when I was expecting -- who's expecting? -- to get the 'magic eye' of sensimilla -- which I don't cotton regularly, thank you, the farmer hearing John Godfrey read -- inert privilege of disparaging the ether of every 90s pop phenomenon (Subpop). I know it must have undead when Blank went solo, but your early albums were the best, man! (ma'am))! Please, poets, no more jokes! And no more tricks! We know them and what they're wearing. Send in the new affects, soon! Thank you. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 00:56:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy McClure Subject: slams again; symbolic chicken in the classroom cf writes: Rap / slam has as one of its defining attributes an active hostility to the notion of coding. The defining attribute is IMHO narrative and any poem which subverts or too easily confuses the narrative thrust is suspect and falls beyond the pale for the genre of rap / slam. The methodology of "this is what the poet is trying to say" and "this is the coding necessary to understand that poem" is disempowering to the reader and serves as the political springboard for rap / slam which has as its concern the destruction of this disempowerment. The case 'may' be accurately represented that once a child has gotten to the point where they are empowered with language and feeling 'in control' poetry is introduced in a manner which "disempowers" them by delegating control of the coding process to the authority figure of the teacher. Crude rhyming and inelegant wordplay are quite often the 'language' point used to support the 'political' point of empowerment and releasing of rage because this complex serves as antidote to the aforementioned methodology. The points of empowerment follow closely the narrative thrust because it is neccessary to show that "you understand what's going on" despite assurances from the teacher (poetry), politician (society), preacher (spirituality), that "you don't know what's going on" unless you are given the key (i.e. coding). It follows as well that rhyming and alliteration, etc. are the tools employed because it is absolutely necessary that the tools of the oppressor - subjugation, rhyme, alliteration et al. be used to defeat those who would disempower 'you'. Given this reading, IMHO, it makes perfect sense why langpo is received with hostility within the genre / world view of rap / slam. It does make sense. Though it's the subversion of narrative that's the appeal to teaching langpo et al in the first place --demanding more attention just to elements (and I mean elements: space and punctuation and alphabet, to name a few); introducing the concept of encountering a poem as just an experience of reading rather than extracting "meaning". I think you can pretty much carry over the same value to rap / slam for usefulness in emphasizing listening/voice over, say, speculating over what those damn chickens symbolize, etc, --esp. when students intuit (see WCW thread) and think they must, for the moment at least, adhere to a teacher's narrative (just another in a world of competing narratives). I've always hoped that showing students quote difficult poems unquote does a bit to mitigate the presence of that narrative when they figure out for themselves why the author is doing something that initially bothers them so much. I've seen the ones that do --they become terrific readers/listeners of just about anything and hence empowered; sometimes they remained bothered by the stuff, but in getting it on their own terms, not defeated. best, wm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 07:43:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Slams again; chicken in the classroom In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 22 Aug 1996 15:56:40 -0500 from >yeah, that's just it---from one pov, it's ALL coded... one dominant >gradient in our public discourses asks us to construe meaning-making as a >process of en/decoding... part of this is a consequence (broadly) of >information technologies... you've all heard this before---'the information >is encoded, transmitted through a conduit, and emerges at the other end to >be decoded'... but to say this is to recognize, as well, the specifically >political dimension of communications apparatus... b/c the question, as a >few folks have suggested, becomes a matter of who possesses the >intelligence or counterintelligence cheat-sheet---who's doing the >en/decoding?... This seems like a good description of what poetry is NOT about. (I realize you're not saying it IS, Joe!) As I understand it, a poem is like a cognitive "solution" to a set of images/concepts/things-that-are-important-to-the-writer - a set which, without the poem, don't hold together, don't "make sense", are vague & disparate & inchoate & skemanderlous. And because that's so, the poem contains a measure of difficulty, equal to concision. What was that phrase of Pound's, something like dictare = condensare (to write is to condense?). And the invention/discovery aspect of the poem, it's newness, is also a discovery for the writer. It's super-coded; it's not a code manipulated & programmed for a particular use. It's not power OVER; it's verbal power per se. And verbal power has consequences in all directions, & can't be pigeon-holed by a particular socio-political theory. This is not to idealize or make the poem "clean" : look at Pound's conglomerations for example. But one can ask whether the poetry in Pound dominated by fixed ideas & stubborn assumptions is really new, really discovering anything. Pound is just one example. When a poem is ready to prove something by rhetoric rather than discovery, we start to "see through" it, it doesn't move much, it's dead. It's a speech, a code. Does this contradict what I wrote before about the poet trying to "communicate" something? Maybe not. The poem is what emerged from the impulse to communicate something; it's more than the impulse, but the impulse can't be discounted. (The urge to kill for a cause in Pound is an impulse; to kill for glory, for the right, for the epic.) But I think there's a disinterestedness in real poetry; not indifference, but a specific poetic energy that achieves something as-poem, in itself. - Henry G ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:50:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: argument >I like "didactic" in there as a possible alternative, Judy. Could you >say some more? best > >Tony Green, >e-mail: t.green@auckland.ac.nz Briefly, sure. Has to do with pointing towards truth, as opposed to worrying about methodology of establishing same. Or maybe its speaking from grounds of, rather than establishing. Not sure. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 10:57:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Libbie Rifkin Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 In-Reply-To: <321C62D6.1B6D@concentric.net> Thanks so much to Ron Silliman, Albert Glover, Rachel Loden and Julia Stein for your thoughts, reminiscences and research leads. I'm going to try to make it out to Berkeley in the next couple of months to listen to the tapes at the Bankroft, and to find out more about Robert Duncan's work as Poetry Consultant to the collection. Thanks for your help! Libbie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 09:53:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julie Marie Schmid Subject: Re: small presses In-Reply-To: <9608231450.AA04000@titania.math.ukans.edu> Hi all-- I'm looking for anything and everything that has been written (articles, manifestos, personal musings on the subject, political motivations/goals behind the small press, economics, relationship between poetry "scene" and small press "scene," whatever) about small poetry presses, rationale for founding them, or anything written about self-publishing, and/or connections between small press publishing and Web page publishing. I would also be interested in hearing from anyone who has founded their own press or has published on small presses. If you'd like, you can backchannel to jschmid@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 12:55:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 Libbie R. As you seem to be at Cornell, you probably know that the Berkeley '65 poetry thing was the sequel to the Vancouver '63 poetry thing, and the precursor to the Buffalo '67 one, eh? Lots of info about all of them at Special Collections, Simon Fraser University in Burnaby, B.C. Charles Watts the expert there. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 13:10:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... >George Bowering added (the bit beginning "Oh yeah?"): >> >> > >> >> >To Charles Bernstein--- >> >> >> > >> >> >> >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I >> >>never >> >> >> >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so >> >>dumb, >> >> >> >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without >> >> >>talking to >> >> >> >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! >> >> >> >> >> >> I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you >>mean to >> >> >> me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in >>Wyoming, >> >> >> N.Y. >> >> > >> >> >Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in >> >> >Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh >> >> >Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the >> >> >hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction >> >> >manual. >> >> >> >> Charles, how could you!? You told me she was just an intelligent >>person you >> >> had befriended for her quick mind! I am sending your jewelry back. >> >> >> > >> >Some of us don't need trinkets to express the inexpressible, my dear >> >--what do you call yourself--Georgette? Some of us, on a summer's >> >eve, have the freedom of our own thoughts and need not surrender to >> >idle jealousies. Charles may do what he wishes with his heart; I >> >know I'll always have Peekskill, and my memories of the honeymoon >> >suite! P.S. Keep your baubles--you may need to hock them for a few >> >maple leaves. >> >> Oh yeah? Well, Charles told me a VERY interesting story about you and a >> certain Mister Joris, which I could never repeat in public. But REALLY, did >> you have to go to Poughkeepsie for something like that? > > >Poughkeepsie! That sweet city with her dreaming spires...But no, I >think Charles must have me mixed up with Amy Fisher in her preteen, >pre-Buttafuoco days (Pierre's the only one who REALLY knows, and >HE at least is too much of a gentleman to say. Aren't you Pierre?). >I deal with all of this in my sonnet series "Snorkling the Lotus," >for anyone who really wants to plumb the depths of those times. "The >past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." I >forgive you, Charles. >Rachel Loden I was told personally by Ron Silliman that "Snorkling the Lotus" was about him! Oh, I get it; you tell all your conquests that the poem was about them. Well, some of us here in poetry-land think too much of our craft to employ it in amatory adventures. Some of us, such as I, live a life of the mind. What is Ron going to do when he finds out that you dalled with Pierre, and heaven knows how many others? Ron Silliman is a sensitive man. And he does not go around writing public poems about his affairs of the heart. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 16:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Brannen Subject: NEW MARK WALLACE CHAPBOOK !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW AVAILABLE FROM STANDING STONES PRESS MARK WALLACE'S 27 part poem: IN CASE OF DAMAGE TO LIFE, LIMB OR THIS ELEVATOR (four dollars post-paid) Standing Stones Press 7 Circle Pines Morris, MN 56267 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! MARK WALLACE In Case of Damage to Life, Limb or This Elevator Enthusiasm for secret doors loses itself in the house of redundant emphasis on the money that wants to take over the day. My best thoughts are ones I stop myself from saying. Who needs the state to censor me? Across the courtyard huddles the empty building of blatant charities which knows what's not getting used to it. Let's have our cake and eat our words, inventing ghosts who hover in basements uncovering useless crimes. The world just isn't the mind which keeps falling over the matter of fact that wasn't there when no one showed up. Listening at night, what do you hear beyond the mangled psychodramas? I never let myself think in silence and the air-conditioning of lives that go their own way. Wind blows the pages apart. Other Standing Stones Press Publications: Tom Ahern, Skippy Taggart's Wife Curt Anderson, Umbra Dennis Barone, The Masque Resumed Jonathan Brannen, Crunching Numbers Gerald Burns, Probability and Fuzzy Dice Cydney Chadwick, The Gift Horse's Mouth o.p. Mark DuCharme, Contractng Scale Peter Ganick, IT OR S/HE Geof Huth, To a Small Stream of Water (or Ditch) H.T. (Heather Thomas), Circus Freex Stephen-Paul Martin, Crisis of Representation Michelle Murphy, The Tongue in its Shelf Sheila E. Murphy, Wind Topography John Perlman, Anacoustic o.p. Susan M. Schultz, Earthquake Dreams o.p. Mark Wallace, In Case of Damage to Life, Limb or This Elevator All publications are $4.00 or any four for $12.00 (postage included). Standing Stones Press 7 Circle Pines Morris, MN 56267 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 18:37:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: NEW MARK WALLACE CHAPBOOK Dear Jonathan--I'd like to get a Mark Wallace book. Will pay as soon as my life is straight--I tried to leave Hawaii the other night but ended up in a 10 hour delay that resulted in my being here until later today (I hope). I'll be in Buffalo by Sept 3 at 107 14th Street, Upper, Buffalo, NY 14213. all best, Susan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 18:39:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: Chax e-mail? At 11:50 AM 8/22/96 -0400, you wrote: >Hey poetics people, > >Please indulge one who's been ill--can Charles Alexander still be reached >at chax@mtn.org, or does he have a new e-address to go with his "real" >address in spatial "reality"? > >Gwyn McVay > > Gwyn -- the last i heard he can still be reached at this email address, tho he did post about a week back that he'd be off-line for a week or so. best, bmarsh ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 23 Aug 1996 22:55:54 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... Comments: To: George Bowering On 23 Aug 96 at 13:10, George Bowering wrote: > >George Bowering added (the bit beginning "Oh yeah?"): This thing is turning into The Renga According to Proust !-) ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 05:47:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Aug 1... George Bowering wrote (the bit beginning "I was told personally by Ron Silliman"): > >> > >> >> >To Charles Bernstein--- > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> >Wondering how you are this late summer eve. Or summer's eve. Since I > >> >>never > >> >> >> >even look at the Digest except when the when turns into the then (so > >> >>dumb, > >> >> >> >forget it), am glad to see your CB. HOw does one say hello without > >> >> >>talking to > >> >> >> >the whole team? Hi team Ever, Ann! > >> >> >> > >> >> >> I was wondering that too, Charles. I want to tell you how much you > >>mean to > >> >> >> me, and especially how much I savor that weekend in the motel in > >>Wyoming, > >> >> >> N.Y. > >> >> > > >> >> >Not that I've forgotten our last blissful night at the Bide-A-Wee in > >> >> >Peekskill, when stars fell into the Hudson and we were as pomo gods. Oh > >> >> >Charles, how awful to have to say these things to you in front of the > >> >> >hoi polloi. Hi hoi polloi! Ever your girl. P.S. Please send instruction > >> >> >manual. > >> >> > >> >> Charles, how could you!? You told me she was just an intelligent > >>person you > >> >> had befriended for her quick mind! I am sending your jewelry back. > >> >> > >> > > >> >Some of us don't need trinkets to express the inexpressible, my dear > >> >--what do you call yourself--Georgette? Some of us, on a summer's > >> >eve, have the freedom of our own thoughts and need not surrender to > >> >idle jealousies. Charles may do what he wishes with his heart; I > >> >know I'll always have Peekskill, and my memories of the honeymoon > >> >suite! P.S. Keep your baubles--you may need to hock them for a few > >> >maple leaves. > >> > >> Oh yeah? Well, Charles told me a VERY interesting story about you and a > >> certain Mister Joris, which I could never repeat in public. But REALLY, did > >> you have to go to Poughkeepsie for something like that? > > > > > >Poughkeepsie! That sweet city with her dreaming spires...But no, I > >think Charles must have me mixed up with Amy Fisher in her preteen, > >pre-Buttafuoco days (Pierre's the only one who REALLY knows, and > >HE at least is too much of a gentleman to say. Aren't you Pierre?). > >I deal with all of this in my sonnet series "Snorkling the Lotus," > >for anyone who really wants to plumb the depths of those times. "The > >past is a foreign country: they do things differently there." I > >forgive you, Charles. > > I was told personally by Ron Silliman that "Snorkling the Lotus" was about > him! Oh, I get it; you tell all your conquests that the poem was about > them. Well, some of us here in poetry-land think too much of our craft to > employ it in amatory adventures. Some of us, such as I, live a life of the > mind. What is Ron going to do when he finds out that you dalled with > Pierre, and heaven knows how many others? Ron Silliman is a sensitive man. > And he does not go around writing public poems about his affairs of the > heart. Really now, Georgette--seems to me that Ron goes around doing little else. Reading him is an endless game of connect-the-nasty-bits ("Only a minute after we agree that we're going to hop up, take a shower and not make love this morning, you're on top of me, rubbing, gradually slipping my penis in"). No, "Snorkling the Lotus" is all will-o'-the-wisp, all gossamer and hardly bears comparison to that sort of tawdry retailing. The affair you mention, if it happened at all, should have remained a private matter between Ron and me (and possibly the night manager of that place in Ossining). Oh Charles, how could a few soft words on a summer's eve result in such humiliations? XXXOOO a few disconsolate kisses in memory of my feelings. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 24 Aug 1996 09:02:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 Hey Libbie and George, You may recall that there was a big shindig at Cortland prior to the Buffalo fest, at which CO was the main guy but many others were there too, and somewhere there is a tape and transcript of his "performance." Burt ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 11:17:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 >Hey Libbie and George, > >You may recall that there was a big shindig at Cortland prior to the >Buffalo fest, at which CO was the main guy but many others were there too, >and somewhere there is a tape and transcript of his "performance." > >Burt I would like to hear that! Also, if the SFU special collectiuons doesnt have it, I bet they wd love to. George Bowering. "The BAZOOKA is only for my understanding." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Tristan Tzara fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 12:57:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: it's citation time Hi team! In response to backchannel queries, I want to say that yes: > > >"Only a minute after we agree that we're going to hop up, take a shower > >and not make..." [censored] is a real Silliman quote. It's from _Under_, specifically the hunk published in _B City_ #9, 1994, p. 4 (and I don't believe that Ron has ever apologized for such passages). Cheers, Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 17:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: weiner again hi guyzies i'm trying to theorize hannah weiner as 1) a jewish writer and 2) in terms of trauma theory, or let me rephrase that: her texts seem to me to be "effects" (hey that almost rhymes) of the trauma of postmodernity. and also of being a jewish american girl (princess?) in the 40s and 50s --whose relatively comfortable youth was concurrent w/ the Holocaust; this is a twist, i think, on our earlier discussion of middleclass american women's "right" to use (the use and/or abuse debate) the holocaust as touchstone for articulating their experience: in this case it's not weiner but me who is trying to claim that as a legitimate, if "silent teacher"ly subtext of her decentered, disavowed and displaced writings-by-dictation. whaddya think? charles, you said something once about a pasage in clairvoyant journal that was particularly germane to her Jewishness; i can't recall/find what it was. any thots, any won? maria d ps you'll all be duly acknowledged in resulting essay, which is due in (yipes) three days. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 20:06:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: weiner again and by the way guyzies, who was Alex Hladky, mention in weiners's SIXTEEN as having died in the fall of 1982? bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 20:08:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: weiner again whaddya have in mind, miekal? do you wanna join our range/renga quabal, or do you want to do a pas de deux (duet)? by the way, do you have any tape cassettes of Hannah Weiner? that i can buy from you? bests, maria d In message "maria damon" writes: > and by the way guyzies, who was Alex Hladky, mention in weiners's SIXTEEN as > having died in the fall of 1982? > bests, maria d > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:03:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: word alchemy sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or letters, the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 22:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: word alchemy In-Reply-To: <322105df5bc8005@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Kabbalah On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: > is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or letters, > the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? > Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? > bests, maria d > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 22:16:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: weiner again I am sorry I don't have time tonight (first week of classes at UB and acutely hectic for me) to respond more fully to Maria's thoughts about Hannah Weiner, though I do try to touch on some of the same issues in the LINEbreak interview I did with Hannah. But I think the reference Maria is referring to is from her recent work "Paw" where she recounts that a magical creature has followed her from Mexico to NYC and that this creature houses itself in a small velvet-lined drawer inside her forehead. This, it seems to me, is an image of the Tfellin* (the scripture that Orthodox Jews bind on their forehead). Also: Hannah emphasizes, in respect to the Clairvoyant Journal, that she see words on her forehead and the picture of her on the cover of the book has WORD written on her forehead. BUT, Hannah Weiner herself makes no connection to any Jewish reference. I think on the LINEbreak tape I pose this to Hannah and she notes that I misremembered some of the details on "Paw" (which I heard at a reading about two years ago but have not read). Problem is, with this speed of this medium, to send this out now, and not in a month say, I am repeating the same misremembered details, which, if adjusted to what is in "Pah" would, I think, still hold. (I believe this poem is part of a ms that will be coming out before too long. It's a marvelous --wild -- piece, kind of a cross between Beatrice Potter and Magic Realism, but then again like neither one, and presented by its author as actual. But I better stop before I misremember more.) *not sure if I spelled this right I checked my on-line dictionary here and it suggests "Telling", the title of Laura (Riding) Jackson's book [The Telling]. Weiner's method is also, of course, am image of a/the "telling". ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: word alchemy i thot of that, alan, and thanks, but the kabbalah is also, isn't it, based on numerology? md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Kabbalah > > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > > > sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: > > is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or > > letters, > > the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? > > Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? > > bests, maria d > > > > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ > 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 21:45:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: weiner again cb writes: > I am sorry I don't have time tonight (first week of classes at UB and > acutely hectic for me) to respond more fully to Maria's thoughts about > Hannah Weiner, .. thanks charles, very helpful. how can i get a tape of linebreak interview? md (backchannel's fine) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 22:51:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: word alchemy In-Reply-To: <32210f162b0f067@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> The gematria I think is numerological (someone please correct me!) but most of the Kabbalah is a study, not only of the words and letters, but of the actual _shape_ of the letters related to the inner meanings of words. Alan On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > i thot of that, alan, and thanks, but the kabbalah is also, isn't it, based on > numerology? > md > > In message UB > Poetics discussion group writes: > > Kabbalah > > > > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > > > > > sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: > > > is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or > > > letters, > > > the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? > > > Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? > > > bests, maria d > > > > > > > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > > images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ > > 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 20:06:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Poetics scrap book Whoever keeps track of press coverage of the EPC Web site (I think that'd probably be Joel Kuzsai, but what do I know) should check out p 191 of the September issue of Wired, the one you can read standing around at news stands right now. Others on the list may also be interested in checking it out. Besides the positive verbiage on EPC there are URLs for some other poetry sites including a cowboy poet site & something called Oyster Boy Review which, from the look of it (I haven't checked it out yet), is a Bukowski love feast. You'll also find a listing for Ocassional Screenful, an e-mail list that does nothing but send a poem every few weeks (as opposed to Poetics-L which does everything including sending a poem every few weeks). Needless to say all of the graphics come from Oyster Boy, rather than the EPC, even though the piece starts out with a slam on Quentin Tarantino. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 22:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: word alchemy thanks alan; i looked up kaballah and its origin is qabal, to receive or take, so in terms of weiner's clairvoyance it's perfect, though it's not what i thought i was asking. this is a very exhilerating project as it turns out; i was dreading having to grind out an 8-page special for yet another conference (i adore conferences mostly, but i'm getting tired of having to write things, i mean, i'm not getting tired as it turns out, but i get tired at the *idea* of having to write something; when i actually do it it's a gas)...the worry is it good enough...this is for a panel on theorizing the traumatic and the other panelists are doing this highpowered stuff on freud, deleuzian post-holocaust cinematics and german film etc, and here i am saying isn't this neat, this lady sees words! o well. anyone out there on the list going to the midwest mla in my fair(haired and skinned) city? actually i saw baraka read here last night as part of the beat exhibit, it was exhilerating, and my colleague john wright performing l hughes's ask your mama with a jazz quartet and a slide show. bests, maria d In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > The gematria I think is numerological (someone please correct me!) but > most of the Kabbalah is a study, not only of the words and letters, but > of the actual _shape_ of the letters related to the inner meanings of words. > > Alan > > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > > > i thot of that, alan, and thanks, but the kabbalah is also, isn't it, based > > on > > numerology? > > md > > > > In message UB > > Poetics discussion group writes: > > > Kabbalah > > > > > > On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > > > > > > > sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: > > > > is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or > > > > letters, > > > > the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? > > > > Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? > > > > bests, maria d > > > > > > > > > > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > > > images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ > > > 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR > > > > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ > 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 22:57:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: word alchemy There's always Rimbaud's Alchemy of the Word, the "Lettre du Voyant" --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 23:58:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Smith Subject: Re: word alchemy In a message dated 96-08-25 22:07:48 EDT, maria writes: << sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or letters, the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? bests, maria d >> maria, Kabbalah comes to mind.... & a quick look at Johanna Drucker's _The Alphabetic Labyrinth_ mentions: curses, spells defixiones, amulets, lamellae, kleromancy & alectryomancy alectryomancy (credited to a follower of Pythagoras, Iamblichus): "divination by means of a fowl. To use this method one scratched the letters of the alphabet out around a circle in the sand and then sprinkled grain over them. The fowl was released and the pattern of its pecking was recorded. The sequence of letters was studied for hidden meanings or messages." --p. 68 she also mentions Agrippa's _De Occulta Philosophia_ don't know if this is of any help to ya hope to get to SF for yr G Stein talk next week charles ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 25 Aug 1996 23:17:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: weiner another one for you geniuses (this is really useful): what does "Hannah" mean in hebrew? i'm embarrassed to say i don't know. hanni i know means happy in arabic, so maybe its the same thing? md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:25:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Oren Izenberg Subject: Re: word alchemy In-Reply-To: <960825235816_187673052@emout13.mail.aol.com> Hi all. Gematriya is indeed numerological-- but it *is* based on the correspondence between the letters of the alphabet and their assigned number values. The numbers serve to indicate equivalences (mystical and otherwise) between words. best, O. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:35:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Oren Izenberg Subject: Re: weiner In-Reply-To: <322125613e6b070@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> Two possible roots: "Cheyn" means (more or less) "charm", a beauty not of aspect but of person. Perhaps less interestingly (and probably further from the true etymology) "Choneh" means to camp or pitch a tent; the past tense would be chana-- but the syllabic stress is different from the name-- Cha'nna the name, chana' the verb. On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > another one for you geniuses (this is really useful): what does "Hannah" mean in > hebrew? i'm embarrassed to say i don't know. hanni i know means happy in > arabic, so maybe its the same thing? > md > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:46:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: weiner In-Reply-To: <322125613e6b070@mhub0.tc.umn.edu> Chet-nun-hay is to be gracious; it may be related to this. Chet-mem-shin is the root of happy; hay-nun-hay is to be agreeable, pleased, pleasant; for that matter, hay-nun-hay in the sense of hee-nay is behold or lo. Alan - there are Arabic cognates as well. On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > another one for you geniuses (this is really useful): what does "Hannah" mean in > hebrew? i'm embarrassed to say i don't know. hanni i know means happy in > arabic, so maybe its the same thing? > md > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:11:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: word alchemy In-Reply-To: <32211de468b9002@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> I remember Hannah, the first time I met her, reading the word "poison" on my forehead, and I thought at that point, it's also a weapon. Just as depression (my own included) is a weapon. That can't be overlooked. Kabbalah - original meaning "to be opposite," then "to take that which is opposite, to take over, to receive." Indication it might be related to Akkadian words for "battle" and "middle," and Arabic "qalb" for "heart." Check out Ernest Klein, A Comprehensive Etymological Dictionary of the Hebrew Language, for Readers of English, Macmillan, 1987. If you want more traditional sources, I can find them. Alan http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 00:28:07 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: word alchemy Comments: To: Alan Sondheim On 25 Aug 96 at 22:51, Alan Sondheim wrote: > The gematria I think is numerological (someone please correct me!) but > most of the Kabbalah is a study, not only of the words and letters, but > of the actual _shape_ of the letters related to the inner meanings of words. I haven't seen much, in the Kabbalah writings that I've read, referring to the meaning of the shapes of the letters. It sounds intriguing -- can you point me toward a reference? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:29:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglis Beck Subject: small press & poetry julie, there are two excellent books you should check out on small presses. one is richard peabody's "Mavericks" (subtitle is something like: 7 renegade publishers; whatever, its packed, sorry.) its very good & probably much better than the other: "The Art of Literary Publishing" can't remember the editor, but it strikes me as more pedantic than richard's book. both will be interesting to you though. douglis. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:43:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: word alchemy Comments: To: Joseph Zitt In-Reply-To: <199608260528.AAA29285@zoom.bga.com> I remember material in the Zohar discussing the name of God - it might also be in tales of the Chassidim - in terms of the Hay needing support from the yod (also means hand) for example... Alan On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, Joseph Zitt wrote: > On 25 Aug 96 at 22:51, Alan Sondheim wrote: > > > The gematria I think is numerological (someone please correct me!) but > > most of the Kabbalah is a study, not only of the words and letters, but > > of the actual _shape_ of the letters related to the inner meanings of words. > > I haven't seen much, in the Kabbalah writings that I've read, > referring to the meaning of the shapes of the letters. It sounds > intriguing -- can you point me toward a reference? > ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- > |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| > ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| > |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 4 GIN 1/3 SA KUG. BABBAR ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 02:03:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: word alchemy In-Reply-To: <32211de468b9002@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> maria damon wrote >...the worry is it > good enough...this is for a panel on theorizing the > traumatic and the other > panelists are doing this highpowered stuff on freud, > deleuzian post-holocaust > cinematics and german film etc, and here i am saying > isn't this neat, this lady > sees words! -as I"ve said before, it's the act of writing or drawing that counts. I've seen this as a therapist and in my own work. The names and the theories you note are just part of their own secret kabbalah. Go get 'em! tom ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:54:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: word alchemy For word alchemy as performance score, see Emmett Wiiliams, The Alphabet Symphony: This is a symphony in which you can spell "love" by smoking a cigar, blowing a silent dog whistle, eating a chocolate eclair off the floor on all fours. In The Alphabet Symphony, twenty-six objects are substituted for the letters of the alphabet. These objects, with instructions on what the performer should do with them, are arranged on the stage in alphabetical order. The conductor draws a letter from a box. He calls the letter "E", for example, and the performer proceeds to the row of objects, selects the "E" object, and does with it what the instruction tells him to do. The objects and actions can vary from performance to performance . . . it was the most popular of my performances in early Fluxus days . . . (1962). The complete text may be found at: http://www.panix.com/~fluxus Instructions in a Symphony that varies from performance to performance--interesting to think on in relation to the intersections of predictions/control/fate/chance-- (some of which were brought up during the "stochastic" thread on this list a number of weeks ago) --dave baptiste chirot ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 01:43:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Hannah Comments: cc: damon001@maroon.tc.umn.edu Maria, at this very odd site > http://www.sasknet.com/~dramashar/hannah.htm found this: > Pronunciation, meaning & background > > * Channah, {pronounced khan-naw'}. > * Hannah means 'grace' > * 1) the mother of Samuel, one of the wives of Elkanah > > - or - > > * chanan {khaw-nan'} > * - mercy, gracious, merciful supplication, favor, besought, pity, > fair, favorable, favored > * 1) to be gracious, show favor, pity > * 1 a) (Qal) to show favor, be gracious > * 1 b) (Niphal) to be pitied > * 1 c) (Piel) to make gracious, be favorable, be gracious > * 1 d) (Poel) to direct favor to, have mercy on > * 1 e) (Hophal) to be shown favor, show consideration > * 1 f) (Hithphael) to seek favor, implore favor > > The actress should consult, and be very familiar with, the story of > Hannah in 1 Samuel, chapters 1 and 2. Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:09:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: word alchemy Alan Sondheim suggested that >Kabbalah was the answer to Maria Damon's question > >> is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or letters, >> the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? >> Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? >> bests, maria d >> Kabbalah is a lot bigger than that. A *lot* bigger. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:23:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: word alchemy judy writeman roits: > Alan Sondheim suggested that > > >Kabbalah > > was the answer to Maria Damon's question > > > >> is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or > > letters, > >> the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? > >> Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? > >> bests, maria d > >> > > Kabbalah is a lot bigger than that. A *lot* bigger. > that's what i thought, but so many folks have responded by pointing me to the Kaballah that...uh-oh, it might be time for me to descend. i've always been fearful of not having the "right stuff" (by which i don't mean traditional gender requirements, but a kind of energy for sustained longterm inquiry into things more profound than imaginable, kinda like taking acid as a metaphysical exercise). not wanting to just cruise the surface, but aware of the significance of diving deep. who'd a thot that a dinky-ass little conference paper wd land me in the Kaballah. thanks everyone, there's been lots of helpful response. md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 10:02:29 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: word alchemy Comments: cc: jrothenb@ucsd.edu For maria d -- In the original edition of A BIG JEWISH BOOK I have a selectiion from Hannah's Clairvoyant Journal -- set between an image of Wallace Berman's 1960s "Wall" and a number of medieval Hebrew (masora) "calligrams." The commentary on Hannah begins: "Weiner's journals -- contemporary -- arise from an experience of word-visualization reminiscent of those of the traditional poet-mystics: 'I see words on my forehead, in the air, on other people [etcetera].' With this the reader can compare, e.g., the appearance of the Hebrew letters (above, p. 391) as "great mountains," or the oral manifestation to the kabbalist Joseph Caro (1488-1575) of a maggid (heavenly messenger), who took the name Mishna & a persona between male & female ..." It then goes on to quote Caro's description of the visitation, which is in fact a gift of spoken rather than written words -- words that "will speak in thy mouth & thy lips will vibrate." The great mountains reference from an anonymous 13th century author, describes an act of word kabbala involving recombinations of the letters of the names of God & runs like this: "During the second week the power became so strong in me that I couldn't manage to write down all the combinations of letters which automatically spurted out of my pen. ... When I came to the night in which power was conferred on me, & Midnight had passed, I set out to take up the Great Name of God, consisting of 72 Names, permuting & combining it. But when I had done this for a little while, the letters took on the shape of great mountains, strong trembling seized me & I could summon no strength, my hair stood on end, & it was as if I were not in this world. Then something resembling speech came to my lips & forced them to move. I said: "This is indeed the spirit of wisdom." [This is probably the kind of thing Alan Sondheim had in mind in speaking about the shapes of letters.] I conclude the above quote with some more: "The range of approaches & names ("the whole Torah is nothing but the great name of God" -- thus J. Gikatilla) should be clear in the images that follow. From what is in effect a sacred 'concrete poetry.'" And the conclusion to the commentary on Hannah: "The lack of a similar context for Weiner's experience, etc., is a condition of our time -- on which no further comment." Anyway there's more in fact that could be said -- e.g. about gematria as a field of both letters & numbers, etc. -- but it's a busy morning in San Diego & about as far as I can go. Jerome Rothenberg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:52:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 George et al. Does anyone know if and where a recording of the Cortland Poetry Convocation is? (I know there is a transcript somewhere). burt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:32:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: word alchemy thanks jerry for the reminder that i have this terrific resource (a big j-book) right on my shelf. almost wrote 'on my self' --apropos. bests, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 13:49:40 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 Burt -- You might try the Blackburn archives at UC-San diego (Archive for the New Poetry), which has all of Paul's tapes. I'd guess the Cortland Poetry events were a few years before Paul moved there, but there's a chance (I'm just guessing) that he would have been there, and in that case, there's every chance he would have come back with a recording. The number is 619-534-2253, and the person to talk to is Brad Westbrook. All best Jerry Rothenberg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 14:10:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: word alchemy (fwd) > jack burnham (north western university) writes on the kabbalah and marcel > duchamp. he's done amazing work, and sometime ago had begun a bk on the > shapes of the letters and duchamp's work -- it was called (tentatively) > _narrative structure in western art_. i think he's abandoned that > project, tho, or is holding onto the manuscript -- but probably the most > accessible bk of his which outlines all of this is his collected essays: > _great western salt works_ -- i think it's out of print, but any > university library will (or shld) have it. what's especially interesting > for me is what he has to say abt gnosticism and duchamp's _indifference_ -- > > c. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:16:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: word alchemy >Kabbalah > >On Sun, 25 Aug 1996, maria damon wrote: > >> sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: >> is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or >>letters, >> the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? >> Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? >> bests, maria d Well, I thought of Kabala too, but that's kind of numbers and letters, eh? George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren de una yedra de s=EDlabras." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Octavio Paz fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 15:16:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: weiner My old Webster gives Hannah as "grace" George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren de una yedra de s=EDlabras." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Octavio Paz fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 17:33:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: weiner thanks george; my old webster gives nothing of meaning. In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > My old Webster gives Hannah as "grace" > > > > > George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren > > de una yedra de s=EDlabras." > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > --Octavio Paz > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:15:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Hannah Weiner In-Reply-To: <199608260404.AAA01443@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Roof Books will publish Hannah's Weiner's <> this fall. I will try to make a special offer to the list when the book becomes available. Meanwhile, Maria, I wonder about your theory. The themes in Hannah's writing don't seem to me to have much to do with holocaust. A list of them would show late sixties tv and political issues, the fast, lsd, family, friends, and isolation. Why not take her at her word? The interest for me in Hannah's writing has always been her ability to weave through inside and out without the usual membranes and transitions. For Hannah much of what we call art comes quite easily to her once she has put herself in a particular position, which I don't need to characterize. Also see Maria Damon's essay in the new issue of <>: Hannah makes a pure play at consciousness by mixing genres. Sometimes she succeeds and the reader is pleased. James ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 17:36:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Berkeley poetry conference 1965 George Bowering is right, we do have a good deal of information here about both the Vancouver (1963) and Berkeley (1965) poetry conferences, including tape recordings of the roundtable discussions and readings in Vancouver and of the lectures and readings in Berkeley. The Berkeley recordings are copies of those held in the library at UC Berkeley; the Vancouver recordings are unique. And no, unfortunately we cannot make copies of these recordings available to interested users without the permission in writing of the participants/readers or their estates. If you want to hear them, come to Vancouver! Ralph Maud has been publishing a lot of useful material about the Berkeley poetry conference, particularly about Charles Olson's reading/talk. Several years ago, Ralph "published" for his own classes' use a new, corrected transcription of Olson's talk at Berkeley which is much more accurate and complete than Zoe Brown's _Charles Olson Reading at Berkeley_, published in 1966 by Coyote. Ralph Maud's transcription was eventually included in _Muthologos: the Collected Lectures and Interviews of Charles Olson_, The Four Seasons Foundation, 1978. Recently Ralph has been publishing material related to Olson's appearance in Berkeley (as a kind of rebuttal to Tom Clark's account in his bio of Olson), in _The Minutes of the Charles Olson Society_. I don't have the exact issues at hand, but you can write to Ralph (snail mail only) at 1104 Maple Street, Vancouver, B.C. Canada V6J 3R6 with specific queries. If you want issues or a subscription to _The Minutes of the Charles Olson Society_, write to the Charles Olson Society at the same address. Single issues are $2.50 a copy, a subscription to the current series (series 2) is $25. Also, a transcription of the "Angel, Muse, Duende" discussion featuring Olson, Ginsberg and Duncan, Vancouver, 1963, is published in _Sulfur_ 33. There's also a memoir (from Duncan McNaughton, I think) of Olson's talk at Cortland in one of the _Minutes of the Charles Olson Society_. If you have questions about materials held here in Special Collections, Simon Fraser University, you can contact me backchannel at cwatts@sfu.ca. A caution, tho: I'll be away from this screen and email address for the next two weeks. As a kind of perspective on the ever-mounting heap of compost in that red wheelbarrow, look again at what Melville said about doubloons and their beholders in _Moby-Dick_. Best, Charles Watts ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 22:11:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner james sherry writes: > Roof Books will publish Hannah's Weiner's <> this fall. I > will try to make a special offer to the list when the book becomes available. goody! in the meantime, where can i get "PAH" or PAW, that charles mentioned? > > Meanwhile, Maria, I wonder about your theory. The themes in Hannah's > writing don't seem to me to have much to do with holocaust. A list of > them would show late sixties tv and political issues, the fast, > lsd, family, friends, and isolation. Why not take her at her word? i'm not talking about thematics so much as effect; her writing as an effect of post-holocaust (Jewish) subjectivity. something like that. not trying to ferret out any subtext. still, thanks for the list of identifiable themes. > > The interest for me in Hannah's writing has always been her ability to > weave through inside and out without the usual membranes and transitions. > For Hannah much of what we call art comes quite easily to her once she > has put herself in a particular position, which I don't need to characterize. good point; i like stuff about weaving and membranes. > > Also see Maria Damon's essay in the new issue of <>: Hannah makes > a pure play at consciousness by mixing genres. Sometimes she succeeds and > the reader is pleased. interesting; what specific genres wd u say she mixes? > > James maria d ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 20:27:19 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Marlene Nourbese Philip This is Dodie Bellamy. Marlene Nourbese Philip will be reading at Small Press Traffic in November. I remember there was quite an involved discussion of her work here on the poetics list a few months ago. I'd like to look that discussion up in the list archives. Anybody remember around when that was? Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Kaballah, possibly unrelated resources maria damon typed: > sorry guys its me again, going a little crazy: > is there a word for a system of magic or divination based on words or lett= ers, > the way numerology is based on numbers and astrology is based on stars? > Logology? Logomancy? alphabetrics? > bests, maria d Magic, alchemy and Kabbalism *are* based on exact formulas of words and numbers or, more specifically, perfectly realized paradoxes and complexities coded in letters and numbers. Blavatsky once said, "God is math," (can't give you title or page number: I find her prose insufferable), and the statement hardly originated with her. *The Book of Numbers*, available in certain magic-related book stores, even gives tables for the translation of words into numbers. There is also ancient trick that is used to reduce the the entire text of the bible (in the original Sanskrit) into a sequence of permutations on a single formula. My research had to do with the Sephira, Adam Kadmon, and Qliphoth, but perhaps a few of my books will be useful to you. Sources: _The Saragossa Manuscript_ (both the film and the novel are brilliant), Count Jan Potocki, _On the Kabalah and Its Symbolism_, Gershom Scholem _The Book of Numbers_ (?) _The Golem_, Gustav Meyrinck _The Hidden Chakrahs_ (?) _The Book of Imaginary Beings_ Borges, of course) _Dictionary of the Kabalah _The Astral World_, Panchadasi Books with question marks were read or copied at the library. This was a novella ("Val Demar's Pear," to be published by Permeable Press in November) rather than a paper, so I didn't keep meticulous footnotes. =A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7= =A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7= =A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7 I'm doing three albums and finalizing two books right now, so if you don't see me here, it's because I don't even have the time to grieve. Unsolved Mysteries called me about Susan last week. I recited her virtues until they lost interest, then went back into preproduction. All the best, Rob Hardin http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 00:41:29 +0000 Reply-To: jzitt@humansystems.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Joseph Zitt Organization: HumanSystems Subject: Re: Kaballah, possibly unrelated resources Comments: To: Carnography On 27 Aug 96 at 0:50, Carnography wrote: > numbers. There is also ancient trick that is used to reduce the > the entire text of the bible (in the original Sanskrit) into > a sequence of permutations on a single formula. Sanksrit?! Which bible? ---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------1---------- |||/ Joseph Zitt ==== jzitt@humansystems.com ===== Dallas, Texas \||| ||/ Question Authority, The == SILENCE: The John Cage Mailing List \|| |/ http://www.realtime.net/~jzitt == <*> <*> == The Data Wranglers! \| ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 06:24:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: Kaballah, possibly unrelated resources Joseph Zitt typed: > Sanksrit?! Which bible? Someone was listening: This was part of the explanation as given to me by a Blavatsky disciple. She (the disciple) maintained that the Hebrew text of the bible came from a Sanskrit text, which was said to be the origin of the permutated sequence she showed me. Some people who study the occult, a few of whom I've met, maintain that (and please don't kill the messenger) Kabbalism is a variant of Eastern mysticism. No authoritative text that I've read verifies this--but I have seen the bible-code idea referred to in _On the Kaballah and Its Symbolism_, by Gershom Scholem. But really, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion for the next month or so. I haven't time. I was just trying to be helpful. All the best, Rob Hardin http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:28:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: - Kim Tedrow Subject: Hannah/Anna Hi Maria, I don't know if Hannah and Anna are the same word in Hebrew, but "Anna" is from the Hebrew word meaning "Grace" (I remember reading this in a standard dictionary, it may have been the Random House Unabridged). Kim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 09:44:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Kaballah, possibly unrelated resources once again, thanks to all who've helped...off to sf now so will be incommunicada for a wk, then, kablammo! i'll be back, signed, hannah akhmatfillin... In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Joseph Zitt typed: > > > Sanksrit?! Which bible? > > Someone was listening: This was part of the explanation as > given to me by a Blavatsky disciple. She (the disciple) maintained > that the Hebrew text of the bible came from a Sanskrit text, which > was said to be the origin of the permutated sequence she showed me. > Some people who study the occult, a few of whom I've met, maintain that > (and please don't kill the messenger) Kabbalism is a variant of Eastern > mysticism. No authoritative text that I've read verifies this--but > I have seen the bible-code idea referred to in _On the Kaballah and > Its Symbolism_, by Gershom Scholem. > > But really, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion for the next > month or so. I haven't time. I was just trying to be helpful. > > All the best, > > Rob Hardin > > http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 10:47:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Berkeley 1965 Jerry, Great idea. I have to be in touch with Brad soon anyway, and will follow up. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 17:21:53 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Robert Sward etc missed by UTOPIAN FORMALIST round-ups Does anybody on the list have any interest in Robert Sward? Born in the USA, lived and wrote (don't know if he@s still alive) in Canada, selected poems 1957-1991, to give idea of times he was writing, now out of print tho full text available from a website. I've always been privately very interested in his work, came across it by luck when the reference book, Contemporary Poets, fell open on his entry when I picked it up idly once. He rarely got into or gets into Books of Canadian Verse etc anthologies, as USA born I suppose; I got interested in him while living in New Zealand, when I was "coincidentally" looking at the issue of: Where Do You Get Noticed If You're Not Part of a Movement (LangPo, New Formalism etc), Not the big Mainstream Name, and, above all in New Zealand, if You're Not Your Country's Nationality. Have more perhaps heard of Daphne Marlatt? Far and away my favourite Canadian writer, got into no Canadian anthologies; as she was born outside Canada; and I've often wondered if she only started to get in because her work in the eighties started to feel representative of a "minority group", as a gay writer, as a feminist writer, not just because she's a really good writer. Anyone like Alan Riach? A Scot living in New Zealand, also rarely gets put in Scottish roundups or New Zealand roundups, but I think his work is fabulous. Shouldn't there be an anthology of the people who don't usually get into anthologies? The Poetry for the Millenium book just missed all these emigres I'm mentioning -or others, like David Miller, an Australian living in England. And isn't it the case that ex-Brits Steve MacCaffery and David Bromige are harder to put into LangPo anthologies? Is it because those anthologies are really American LangPo Anthologies, in order to create a pure essence of LangPo utopia, connected to the long tradition of Americans- writing-up-their-enthusiasms-as-UTOPIAN-FORMALISM -------- rather than experimental-practice- most-successful-and-appreciated-in-American- experimentalism-consuming-practices (of which there are nearly none in Britain and New Zealand, in my experience, where it's still poets in-joking to other poets, to the frustration of a lot of great UK and NZ experimentalists!, rather than artistic stimulation of consciousness enjoyed by an active audience of other artists and thinkers) ----------- rather than *actually* look at how different poets in english-speaking cultures with different speech-writing relations have foregrounded their relations and the role of language with them? Would anyone on the list nominate their inclusions for such a book, or feelings on this subject? Best Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 08:15:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cynthia Franklin Subject: Intl.MELUS Conf. Comments: cc: Louise Kubo ------------------- First International and Eleventh National MELUS Conference Multi-Ethnic Literatures Across the Americas and the Pacific: Exchanges, Contestations, and Alliances Honolulu, Hawai'i April 18-20, 1997 The following information is also available at the conference website: http://www.lll.hawaii.edu/web/conference/melus97 *Keynote Speakers* Linda Hogan A Chickasaw originally from Oklahoma, Linda Hogan is currently Associate Professor in the English Department of the University of Colorado where she teaches creative writing. The recipient of several major grants, Hogan is a prolific poet, essayist, playwright, and novelist. She is the author of four volumes of poetry: Calling Myself Home (1978), Daughters, I Love You (1981), Eclipse (1983), Seeing through the Sun, which won a Before Columbus Foundation American Book Award, and of the acclaimed novel Mean Spirit (1990). Her essay collections on women and and Native American cultures include Stories We Hold Secret: Tales of Women's Spiritual Development (1986) and Dwellings: a Spiritual History of the Living World (1995), and she has recently collaborated on a non-fiction collection with her father, entitled That Horse . Haunani-Kay Trask Director of the Center for Hawaiian Studies, Professor of Hawaiian Studies at the University of Hawai'i at Manoa, and member of Ka Lahui Hawai'i, Dr. Trask is a versatile poet, scholar, teacher, public lecturer, and activist for Native Hawaiian rights. Trask is the author of Eros Power: the Promise of Feminist Theory, as well as two works on colonialism, Fighting the Battle of Double Colonization and From a Native Daughter: Colonialism and Sovereignty in Hawai'i (1993), and the poetry collection Light in the Crevice Never Seen (1994). Her essays and poems have been widely anthologized. Albert Wendt As a writer, teacher, and editor, Albert Wendt has played a pivotal role in promoting cultural production in the Pacific. Born in Western Samoa, Wendt is the author of six novels (several of which have been made into feature films), two short story collections, two poetry collections, and major essays on Pacific literature (including "Toward a New Oceania"). He is the editor and introducer of the groundbreaking Lali: A Pacific Anthology (1990) and a follow-up anthology, Nuanua: Pacific Writing in English since 1980 as well. Wendt is currently Professor of English at the University of Auckland, having previously taught in Fiji and Samoa. Leaves of the Banyan Tree, Wendt's epic third novel, won the New Zealand Wattie Book of the Year Award, and is considered a classic of Pacific literature. Other works include the novels Sons for the Return Home, Flying-Fox in a Freedom Tree, Pouliuli, Black Rainbow, and Ola . *Accommodations* The majority of conference activities (including banquet and sessions on April 19 and 20) will be held at the Ala Moana Hotel. Accommodations at special conference rates will be available at the Ala Moana Hotel, 410 Atkinson Drive, Honolulu, adjacent to the Ala Moana Shopping Center and the Ala Moana Beach Park. The hotel is centrally located, ten minutes away from the more touristy areas of Waikiki and close to historic downtown Honolulu and Iolani Palace. Special rates for the conference are as follows: Kona Tower--city view $80 for single occupancy $80 for double occupancy Waikiki Tower--city view $92 for single occupancy $92 for double occupancy $112 for triple occupancy Rooms are subject to Hawai'i' s state excise tax of 4.17% and hotel room tax of 6.0% (rates are subject to change). Hotel rates in downtown Honolulu/Waikiki are generally very costly, and we highly recommend the quality and convenience of the accommodations at the Ala Moana Hotel, which is offering conference participants these excellent rates. Airport shuttles service the hotel. As the conference will consist of 3 full days beginning April 18, 1997, we suggest that participants check-in by April 17. Reservations should be made by March 17, 1997. Room requests after this date will be confirmed based on space availability, and if available will be extended at the conference rate. Room extensions of three nights prior and three nights after the conference dates of April 18-20, 1997 will be honored at the conference rate. For reservations, call (808) 955-4811. *Transportation* United Airlines has agreed to provide discounted airfares to all conference attendees traveling to Honolulu from the United States and Canada. Reservations and schedule information may be obtained by calling the United Meetings Desk at 1-800-521-4041 and referencing the ID Code 507SA. Meeting Desk hours are Monday thru Sunday, 7am to 12 midnight (EST). *Registration* Please print out this form, complete it, and mail it with your check payable to "East West Center" to: MELUS Conference English Department 1733 Donaghho Road University of Hawai'i Honolulu, HI 96822 DEADLINE for registration is January 15, 1997. Last Name: First Name: University/Institutional Affiliation: Address: City: State/Country: Postal Code: Daytime Phone: Fax: E-mail: Non-Students $75 Students $50 Conference registration fee is non-refundable. Registration fee includes a banquet and two luncheons. Please make checks payable to East West Center ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 11:33:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julia Stein Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 25 Aug 1996 to 26 Aug 1996 ------------------------------------------ > >Maria Damon asks, >another one for you geniuses (this is really useful): what does "Hannah" mean >in >hebrew? i'm embarrassed to say i don't know. hanni i know means happy in >arabic, so maybe its the same thing? >md > >------------------------------ I once read that "Hannah" is an acronym for the three traditional tasks of Orthodox Jewish women: lighting Shabbas candles for the Sabbath; going to mikva or the ritual baths in order to keep the laws of ritual purity; and making hallah or white bread. Sorry, but I don't remember the citation. I was named after my grandmother whose original name was Hannah. After she moved to this country, she anglicized it to "Anne." I used the above information in a poem I wrote about my name once called "The Songs of Two sisters, Hannah and Galia." I also was named after my great-aunt whose name was originally Galia & that got anglicized to "Julia." Julie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 14:48:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: 4 U.K. Writers Read at Segue Performance Space THE SEGUE PERFORMANCE SPACE @ 303 East 8th Street (Betw Aves. B&C) New York, New York (212) 674-0199 is proud to announce that 4 renouned writers from the U.K. will read at our lovely loft on TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 3 at 8:00 p.m. sharp, following the Poetics Conference in New Hampshire over Labor Day Weekend. These being: Richard Makin Caroline Bergzall Geoff Ward & Miles Champion Suggested contribution for this exciting kickoff to the Fall reading season is a mere $4.00. This event is curated by Andrew Levy, Fiona Templeton & Dan Machlin. Please contact Dan at The Segue Foundation (212) 674-0199 with any questions. Not to be missed! when gregor samsara slept one night escaping troubled wakedreams he found himself transformed in his debt into a monstrous writer: Lingua Frankeinsteiner, the moonstra upturned, vicous rolling n rocking, entrapped in a hard shelly shock pad carapax of stone from which swindled unredoubtable logs off puce, coulee slathering hire and high the stari night acrospheres - Richard Makin (from FORWORD) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 12:00:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Wilson Subject: Re: Intl.MELUS Conf. Hawaii or Mexico? ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Intl.MELUS Conf. Author: UB Poetics discussion group at Internet Date: 8/27/96 8:15 AM ------------------- First International and Eleventh National MELUS Conference Multi-Ethnic Literatures Across the Americas and the Pacific: Exchanges, Contestations, and Alliances Honolulu, Hawai'i April 18-20, 1997 The following information is also available at the conference website: http://www.lll.hawaii.edu/web/conference/melus97 *Keynote Speakers* Linda Hogan A Chickasaw originally from Oklahoma, Linda Hogan is currently Associate Professor in the English Department of the University of Colorado where she teaches creative writing. The recipient of several major grants, Hogan is a prolific poet, essayist, playwright, and novelist. She is the author of four volumes of poetry: Calling Myself Home (1978), Daughters, I Love You (1981), Eclipse (1983), Seeing through the Sun, which won a Before Columbus Foundation American Book Award, and of the acclaimed novel Mean Spirit (1990). Her essay collections on women and and Native American cultures include Stories We Hold Secret: Tales of Women's Spiritual Development (1986) and Dwellings: a Spiritual History of the Living World (1995), and she has recently collaborated on a non-fiction collection with her father, entitled That Horse . Haunani-Kay Trask Director of the Center for Hawaiian Studies, Professor of Hawaiian Studies at the University of Hawai'i at Manoa, and member of Ka Lahui Hawai'i, Dr. Trask is a versatile poet, scholar, teacher, public lecturer, and activist for Native Hawaiian rights. Trask is the author of Eros Power: the Promise of Feminist Theory, as well as two works on colonialism, Fighting the Battle of Double Colonization and From a Native Daughter: Colonialism and Sovereignty in Hawai'i (1993), and the poetry collection Light in the Crevice Never Seen (1994). Her essays and poems have been widely anthologized. Albert Wendt As a writer, teacher, and editor, Albert Wendt has played a pivotal role in promoting cultural production in the Pacific. Born in Western Samoa, Wendt is the author of six novels (several of which have been made into feature films), two short story collections, two poetry collections, and major essays on Pacific literature (including "Toward a New Oceania"). He is the editor and introducer of the groundbreaking Lali: A Pacific Anthology (1990) and a follow-up anthology, Nuanua: Pacific Writing in English since 1980 as well. Wendt is currently Professor of English at the University of Auckland, having previously taught in Fiji and Samoa. Leaves of the Banyan Tree, Wendt's epic third novel, won the New Zealand Wattie Book of the Year Award, and is considered a classic of Pacific literature. Other works include the novels Sons for the Return Home, Flying-Fox in a Freedom Tree, Pouliuli, Black Rainbow, and Ola . *Accommodations* The majority of conference activities (including banquet and sessions on April 19 and 20) will be held at the Ala Moana Hotel. Accommodations at special conference rates will be available at the Ala Moana Hotel, 410 Atkinson Drive, Honolulu, adjacent to the Ala Moana Shopping Center and the Ala Moana Beach Park. The hotel is centrally located, ten minutes away from the more touristy areas of Waikiki and close to historic downtown Honolulu and Iolani Palace. Special rates for the conference are as follows: Kona Tower--city view $80 for single occupancy $80 for double occupancy Waikiki Tower--city view $92 for single occupancy $92 for double occupancy $112 for triple occupancy Rooms are subject to Hawai'i' s state excise tax of 4.17% and hotel room tax of 6.0% (rates are subject to change). Hotel rates in downtown Honolulu/Waikiki are generally very costly, and we highly recommend the quality and convenience of the accommodations at the Ala Moana Hotel, which is offering conference participants these excellent rates. Airport shuttles service the hotel. As the conference will consist of 3 full days beginning April 18, 1997, we suggest that participants check-in by April 17. Reservations should be made by March 17, 1997. Room requests after this date will be confirmed based on space availability, and if available will be extended at the conference rate. Room extensions of three nights prior and three nights after the conference dates of April 18-20, 1997 will be honored at the conference rate. For reservations, call (808) 955-4811. *Transportation* United Airlines has agreed to provide discounted airfares to all conference attendees traveling to Honolulu from the United States and Canada. Reservations and schedule information may be obtained by calling the United Meetings Desk at 1-800-521-4041 and referencing the ID Code 507SA. Meeting Desk hours are Monday thru Sunday, 7am to 12 midnight (EST). *Registration* Please print out this form, complete it, and mail it with your check payable to "East West Center" to: MELUS Conference English Department 1733 Donaghho Road University of Hawai'i Honolulu, HI 96822 DEADLINE for registration is January 15, 1997. Last Name: First Name: University/Institutional Affiliation: Address: City: State/Country: Postal Code: Daytime Phone: Fax: E-mail: Non-Students $75 Students $50 Conference registration fee is non-refundable. Registration fee includes a banquet and two luncheons. Please make checks payable to East West Center ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 16:02:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Robert Sward etc missed by UTOPIAN FORMALIST round-ups Ira, Sward's very much alive, and (according to catalogue) teaches at UC Santa Cruz extension. Rachel Ira Lightman wrote: > > Does anybody on the list have any interest in > Robert Sward? Born in the USA, lived and wrote > (don't know if he@s still alive) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 15:44:31 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: NCADP CASE BRIEF: South African Youngster Facing Death Row in Mississippi (fwd) This one shouldn't down your e-mail! gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Note: Thank you to every one who requested more information on Azi's case. We regret not being able to respond to each individual query. However, we trust this case brief will shed a brighter light on Azi's life, the events leading up to his arrest, and the need for concerned people to become involved in stopping this grave injustice. If you would like additional information, to find out how you can become involved in Azi's case or make a donation to Azi's defense fund please contact our offices at: National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty 918 "F" Street, NW Suite 601 Washington, DC 20004 (202) 347-2411, ext.5 NCADP1@aol.com ---Steven Hawkins NCADP Executive Director NCADP CASE BRIEF: Azi Kambule: A South African 10th Grader Facing the Death Penalty in Mississippi Azi's Background: Azikiwe Kambule was born and raised in the black township of Soweto, directly outside of Johannesburg in South Africa. When Azi was 10-years-old, his parents moved to Spruitview, where he attended the Ridge School. Initially, school officials were concerned with Azi's admittance because he, like many children in Soweto, had missed many days of formal instruction on account of school boycotts in protest of Apartheid. These concerns were quickly alleviated. Azi not only performed NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE-- well in his classes, but found the time to participate actively in sports and sing in the school choir. After matriculating at the Ridge School, Azi attended Parktown Boys and was an exceptional student there as well. In January of 1994, when he was 15-years-old, Azi moved with his parents to Jackson, Mississippi. They came to the United States because Azi's mother, Busisiwe, hacholarship to obtain a Bachelor's degree at Jackson State University in Psychology. Azi's father, Michael, joined the family a year later. Unable to find employment before his visitor's visa expired, Mike returned to South Africa a year later determined to find a job that would enable him to hire proper counsel for his son. Although Azi had done well in the rigorous educational program at the Ridge School and Parktown Boys, the school authorities in Mississippi nevertheless required him to be held back. Azi was placed in 8th grade at the Chastain Middle School in NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE-- Jackson. Far from being educationally deficient, Azi was accepted into the honors French class. In 1995, Azi began 9th grade at Jackson's Murrah High School. He performed well in his classes during his freshman year and enjoyed singing in the school choir. While Azi had no difficulty adjusting academically, there were social problems. Because of his foreign accent and mannerisms, his peers would make fun of him. These social pressures mounted by the time Azi reached the 10th grade. Wanting to be accepted, Azi befriended a group of older youth who spent little time in class but NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE-- were very street-wise. When his grades began to fall, Azi's parents decided to scrape together the funds to send him to Piney Woods, a well-respected boarding school for black youth outside of Jackson. Azi was set to begin at this new school when tragedy struck. Events Leading to Azi's Arrest: On January 25, 1996, Azi was riding in a car driven by Santonio Berry, a man in his early twenties with a history of criminal behavior. According to Azi's statement to the police, Berry saw Pam McGill drive by in a red sports car and stated that he wanted the vehicle. Berry drove behind Ms. McGill, and when she pulled into her apartment building's parking lot, he got our of his car with a gun. Berry forced Ms. McGill to move into the passenger seat of her vehicle and told NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- Azi to get in the back. Berry then drove from Jackson into neighboring Madison County. He stopped the car, instructed Ms. McGill to come with him and told Azi to stay in the car. Berry took Ms. McGill deep in to the woods. Azi could not see or hear them. He also could not leave because he did not know how to drive the car. Eventually, Berry returned saying that he had shot Ms. McGill. Azi was arrested approximately one week later when an informant notified police that Berry had been trying to sell Ms. McGill's car. From the moment of his arrest, Azi was cooperative. He took the police out several times to where he thought Berry had stopped McGill's car. Azi -- a child from a foreign county with no drivers license, no car, and no knowledge of the area beyond Jackson -- was unable to pinpoint NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- the location. Eventually, some two months later, Berry took the police to the crime scene. It was only then that authorities were able to verify that Ms. McGill had been killed. Azi was then charged as an accomplice to capital murder. This despite the fact that he had no criminal history; was not at the crime scene; and had cooperated fully with the authorities. Madison County and The Impossibility of a Fair Trial: The Hinds County prosecutor, Ed Peters, purposely moved Azi's trial to Madison County to increase the chance of a death sentence. As reported in the local NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- paper, Peters stated that he was moving the trial because the "jurors in [predominantly black] Hinds County have a reputation for refusing to vote for the death penalty." Madison County has become a refuge community for white police and civil servants seeking to create a racially exclusive environment. Middle-class families in Madison tend to live in private communities where entry is limited and private security companies often share the beat with local police. In the towns where there is some Black presence-- such as Canton, the county seat -- public schools are almost devoid of white pupils. White children in these areas are routinely sent to low-cost private NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- Christian academies to thwart efforts at school desegregation. Nor surprisingly, Madison County is the setting for John Grisham's A Time To Kill. Like neighboring Simpson County -- made famous in the late 1980s and early 1990s by the frequency with which young black inmates were found hanging by their belts and shoelaces -- law enforcement in Madison County has historically been racially biased. In 1995, for example, amid wide-spread accusations of voter fraud and intimidation, federal agents had to be brought in to relieve the Sheriff's department of their election monitoring duties. The Black candidate for mayor of Canton had been expected to win and become the first African American to hold the post since Reconstruction. Under federal supervision, a new election was held. Shortly thereafter, Canton inaugurated its first Black mayor in over a century. Earlier, in 1971, the Mississippi Supreme Court documented clear instances NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- in which Madison County officials had systematically excluded Blacks from jury rolls -- decades after the United States Supreme Court declared the practice unconstitutional. Civil rights groups and defense attorneys say that prosecutors in counties like Madison still routinely remove Blacks from juries in capital trials. The Criminal Justice System in Mississippi: Why is Azi-- a child with no criminal record (or history of violence), an honor student and someone who cooperated fully with the police-- being tried for capital murder? The answer lies in the political rewards of seeking the death penalty. It is not uncommon for prosecutors to use high profile cases to propel NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- themselves into higher office. Madison County District Attorney John Kitchens sees his political future as being intimately linked with his ability to get harsh sentences in well publicized cases. This view pervades Mississippi politics. Mississippi Governor has stated unequivocally that he intends to make Mississippi "the capital of capital punishment." For Fordice, the future of law enforcement and social control lies rooted in the past. Fordice has removed radios and televisions from prisons and reintroduced "zebra suits" as inmate uniforms. He also supported legislation that would have required violent criminals to receive six months of mandatory flogging upon entry into the state penitentiary. After Fordice's changes were NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- implemented, the state penitentiary system experienced its biggest inmate riots in years. Seeking the death penalty against Black youth under circumstances like Azi's which do not warrant such extreme punishment is not rare in Mississippi. In the late 1980s a Black teenage mother, Sabrina Butler, was sentenced to death for allegedly bludgeoning her baby. Sabrina's claim that she had given failed CPR to her baby was not only ignored, but used to argue that she had no shame. Only when private attorneys and medical experts intervened was it determined that Sabrina was telling the truth. After spending years fighting to clear her name and facing execution, Sabrina NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- was found innocent and released. She left Mississippi's death row this year. Children on Death Row in the U.S.: A Human Rights Violation and Racially Biased: The situation in which Azi finds himself speaks volumes about the use of the death penalty against children. During this decade, only five nations in the world are known to have executed persons for crimes they committed when under 18-years-old. Those countries are Iran, Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia . . . and the United States. Of these five, America has executed the most. A condemned child in the United States also tends to be of darker hue -- 66% of those persons sentenced to death as children have been from racial minorities. In this century, 75% of all persons sentenced to death as children have been African American. Of the nine girls sentenced to death NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- in the history of the United States, eight were African American and one was Native American. Given these racially biased statistics, it is not surprising that Azi has been chosen for the death penalty. And nowhere is the international rule of law more clear than the prohibition on the use of the death penalty against children. Nearly every major human rights treaty in the world expressly forbids sentencing children to death. Significantly, the United Nations Covenant on Rights of the Child, which the US has signed, clearly states: "Neither capital punishment nor life imprisonment without possibility of parole shall be imposed for offenses committed by persons below eighteen years of age" If the Madison County prosecutor is successful in his attempt to convict Azi as an NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- accomplice to capital murder, either of the possible sentences will violate international human rights standards. Denied Bail, Azi Tries to Better Himself and Avoid Danger: Although Azi had no history of violence or arrest, he was denied bail. He is currently being housed in the Madison County Jail. Since incarceration, Azi has continued his studies, having passed with high marks the initial tests for a general equivalency high school diploma. Azi has also received a letter of commendation from a correspondence Bible school. While trying to make the best of his terrible situation, Azi is also in great danger. As noted earlier, the Mississippi jail system has a history of Black teens being found dead in their cells. The occurrence has been so prevalent that NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- the United States Department of Justice conducted a full-scale investigation just a few years ago. Azi is in particular danger because he has been assigned to share a cell with a person who has already been convicted of a crime. It is against the law to keep pre-trial detainees like Azi in the same cell with persons who have already been found guilty. Azi's cellmate continuously harasses Azi and threatens to do bodily harm to him. Azi has also been denied access to a spiritual adviser. His minister was suddenly denied access to visit with Azi; this is the first time in all his years of visiting persons in jail has the minister ever been stopped from going inside. Additionally, Azi has been NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE BRIEF--NCADP CASE- denied proper access to a telephone. The phone has been broken for several weeks, making it impossible for him to call his mother. END OF BRIEF--NCADP--END OF BRIEF--NCADP--END OF BRIEF---NCADP--END 4 THINGS YOU CAN DO RIGHT NOW TO HELP SAVE AZI: 1) FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO ALL OF YOUR FRIENDS AND PRESS CONTACTS 2) WRITE THE D.A.: ---Azi is a South African child who has no history of violence or prior run-ins with the law; was so far away from the murder that he did not even hear the gun shots; and has fully cooperated with the police. There is no reason why DA Kitchens should be seeking to kill him or put him behind bars for the rest of his life! -----JOHN KITCHENS, ESQ. / MADISON COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY/P.O. BOX 121/ CANTON, MS 39046/ (601) 859-8880-fax /(601) 859-7838-phone. 3)MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD: Please contact the following news organizations: --Clarion-Ledger Newspaper: "Mississippi's Newspaper" letters@jackson.gannett.com --WLBT T.V. News WLBT@teclink.com --Jackson Advocate Newspaper: "The Voice of Black Mississippians" 300 N.Farish Street Jackson,MS 39202 1(601) 948-4125--fax 4) Contact the NCADP to join the campaign. --Inquiries and conrtributions should be directed to: National Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty 918 "F" Street, NW Suite 601 Washington, DC 20004 (202) 347-2411, ext.5 NCADP1@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 27 Aug 1996 21:16:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: AA in NH Assembling Alternatives is not a prospect for most of us, at least this far out of the New Hampshire core of things, and I for one would be grateful indeed for any reports, on fashion or no (Kevin, you'll be missed!), that EVERYONE there, surely (beg! Beg! cajole!), should send to the rest of us, please. I'm really sorry not to be going, and am thus in desperate need of a fix. Have a good time, all. It should be quite a shindig. Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 08:19:11 CDT Reply-To: tmandel@cais.cais.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Gematria "a system of magic or divination based on words or letters," The term you are looking for, Maria, is Gematria. Doesn't Jerry Rothenberg have a large book based on Gematria? It's not really a matter of divination or magic, by the way, as Kabbalah is also not really a matter of "the occult" (too much TV being watched by someone?) as someone referred to it. Gematria is a mystical practice of the determination of meaning and the creation of meaning. The word Kabbalah means, essentially, "tradition" Scholem has an excellent introduction, smply called "Kabbalah", which is a compilation of his articles on K-related topics for a Jewish encyclopedia. It includes an essay on Gematria. His book "On the Kabbalah and its Symbolism," referred to elsewhere in this thread is one of the most extraordinary books I've ever read. For those looking for a long summer read (this is a little late of course), Scholem's _Sabbatai Sevi, The False Messiah_ will help one think for a decade or so. I could go on, but the simple way to put it is that anything by him is worth reading. ************************************************* Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349 ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 09:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Gematria Comments: To: Tom Mandel In-Reply-To: <32244751-00000001@tmandel.cais.com> Hey Tom, /APR/ responded positively to my query about a review of PROSPECT OF RELEASE, and now I have to write the damn thing. Did Charles write a press release or any other PR blah blah about the book? Is there anything I should know, or any angle to take, that isn't obvious from the author's note? I want to make this a killer review so we can get PROSPECT some good ink. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:13:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Re: Robert Sward etc missed by UTOPIAN FORMALIST round-ups In-Reply-To: <199608280405.AAA14457@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Ira, You can find several of Sward's books on-line in the Contemporary American Poetry Archive: http://shain.lib.conncoll.edu/CAPA/capa.html His homepage: http://www.cruzio.com/~scva/rsward.html Wendy --------------------------------------------------- Wendy Battin wjbat@conncoll.edu (home) http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/wjbat/ (CAPA) http://shain.lib.conncoll.edu/CAPA/capa.html --------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:29:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Swear word here! In-Reply-To: big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures-- Gwyn, tres embarrassed ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 10:31:52 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: mandel / release Gwyn-- Embarrassed or not, I'm glad to hear that APR is interested. I just sent Tom a letter of gratitude for PROSPECT OF RELEASE (just released from Chax). Tom's book, which I had read in manuscript a few years ago, is extraordinary. Charles A did a beautiful design job, and the cover design too is wonderful. From my perspective, Tom's book does so many things that hostile critics of "experimental" poetries say can't be found in such poetries. First, is the emotional intensity (which Ron Silliman claims on the book jacket of PROSPECT, and which Ron already e-mailed to Poetics). In my opinion, Ron's claims ("these are the most intensely felt poems I have ever read") are not hyperbolic. Second, Tom's work is attached to a significant, recognizable, and personal event: the death of his father. Third, he risks moments of didacticism and directness of statement. Fourth, there is a substantial and serious engagement with issues that might be called religious (Jewish), metaphysical, and spiritual. I do not know Celan's poetry very well, so I suspect that I miss certain resonances in Tom's book. Tom's series of fifty sonnets strike me as most like Rilke's _Sonnets to Orpheus_--a similarly grave engagement with death. As someone whose own father died this past winter, I found myself moved by Tom's book into reflection and into new writing. I hope that others on the List might take a look at Tom's book, which ends: One whom I thought abandoned me returned. Another I asked to stay must leave. From you I learn better and now know why each mind must bend, but only to its task, soul dancing at the prospect of release. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 17:06:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: Gematria Tom Mandel: > "a system of magic or divination based on words or letters," > It's not really a matter of divination or magic, by the way, as > Kabbalah is also not really a matter of "the occult" (too much TV being > watched by someone?) as someone referred to it. Actually, no one said that Kaballah was a "matter of the occult." This is what I said: > > Some people who study the occult, a few of whom I've met, maintain that > > (and please don't kill the messenger) Kabbalism is a variant of Eastern > > mysticism. No authoritative text that I've read verifies this--but > > I have seen the bible-code idea referred to in _On the Kaballah and > > Its Symbolism_, by Gershom Scholem. Thus, what was referred to was an interpretation of Kabbalism, not Kabalism itself. BTW: Since the Kaballah itself was not referred to as "the occult," and since I gave other sources for my information, it is misleading to refer to my research as "too much TV-watching." Moreover, your characterization of occult practitioners--people who study Blavatsky, Crowley, etc--as TV phantoms might just as easily be dismissed as the result of "too much TV-watching"--if I were inclined to make ad hominem accusations. Much so-called white magic is based on eclectic interpretations of Kabbalism. Various texts,some of which I've cited here, involve such interpretations, (see Blavatsky's _Treatise on White Magic_, if you can stand it--I can't), as do taped lectures from the Theosophical Society's Lodge, for example. I have known people who practiced magic since I was twelve (Novelist John Shirley being the first). Is it fair to presume that the ideas you question come from television rather than from familiarity with religious sects and practitioners whose principles you find dubious? Listening to the OTO (and other popular magic sects) interpret Kabbalism is a bit like enduring a heavy metal version of Vivaldi. Still, certain popular magic practices are relevant to this conversation, which was originally about magic rather than Hebrew mysticism a la carte. Look at the way in which the Sephira have been interpreted in magical practice: This has more to do with an occult interpretation of Kabbalah than with Kabbalism itself. Obviously, if one wishes to study Kabbalism, it is wisest to go to the source--which is why I cited Schocken's _On The Kabbalah and Its Symbolism_ long before anyone else mentioned the name. But the Sanskrit bible idea has nothing to with early Jewish mysticism: that came into fashion far later (post-Golden Dawn?) with a different set of practitioners. It was the Sanskrit idea that I referred to in the context of occult interpretation. There is no reason for you to have to agree with any occult interptretation of Kabbalism: I don't, hence my earlier comment on not "killing the messenger." But neither should you deny the existence of such unorthodox variants. OTO ceremonies sometimes take place in a building visible from my roommate's window. Neo-medieval, neo-mystical, neo-gnostic magicians, all of whom make use of concepts taken from Kabbalah, exist outside my very door and not merely on TV. However, thanks for the term *gematria.* > Gematria is a mystical practice of the determination of meaning and the > creation of meaning. All the best, Rob Hardin PS: Thanks to all for honoring my request not to respond to my post because I'm too busy. Who said that manners were obsolete? http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 15:15:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: raw & cooked (reheated?) Did the question of where the "raw and cooked" as tropes for American poultry came from ever get solved on the list? anyway I came across another candidate, or a candidate (not sure whether someone mentioned this one already) on p. 277 of Ian Hamilton's big biography of Lowell, there's an account of Lowell using these terms, in 1960, in his National Book Award address. Hamilton claims this is the first use of raw/cooked for talking about poetry. Tenney (I guess I might as well confess to still teaching LSFUD in my contemporary poetry course: btw: Lowell, LSFUD Bishop, Collected Merrill, Selected O'Hara, Selected Ashbery, Selected Koch, On the Great Atlantic Rainway: Selected Poems Bernstein, Dark City Scalapino: Way (last 30 copies on earth?) Hunt, Local Histories Mullen, Muse & Drudge 6th man award: Notley, Descent of Alette ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: Virtual Muse Just out: _Virtual Muse: Experiments in Computer Poetry_ by Charles O. Hartman from Wesleyan Paper $14.95 Cloth $35 ISBN: 0819522392 & Northwestern University Press is about to release a re-print of Hartman's _Free Verse: An Essay on Prosody_, which has been o.p. ISBN: 0810113163 $14.95 paper Wendy B --------------------------------------------------- Wendy Battin wjbat@conncoll.edu (home) http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/wjbat/ (CAPA) http://shain.lib.conncoll.edu/CAPA/capa.html --------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:34:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Marlatt >Have more perhaps heard of Daphne Marlatt? Far and >away my favourite Canadian writer, got into no >Canadian anthologies; as she was born outside >Canada; and I've often wondered if she only started >to get in because her work in the eighties >started to feel representative of a "minority >group", as a gay writer, as a feminist writer, >not just because she's a really good writer. The notion that Daphne did not get into anthologies (she did, though) because she was born outside of Canada is not tenable. If it took a while for her to get into anthologies it was largely because she was (a) from the west coast, and (b) she was identified as part of an avant-garde movement--while most of the anthologies were made by squares from back east. She certainly never had any problem getting into my anthologies. If you want to see a case of someone who does not get into anthologies enough, have a look at Robin Blaser, who does not get into those recent US anthologies of contemporary poetry (maybe because he is a canadian), and is not gathered by the squares back east, (perhaps because he was an American), and does not get into regular anthologies because he is perceived to be difficult. Being perceived to be difficult is the main reason that people do not get into anthologies (other than second-ratedness). Do you remember who were the first Allen Anthology poets to get into Nortons and other such anthologies? Ferlinghetti, Snyder and Levertov. They have never been thought difficult. George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren de una yedra de s=EDlabras." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Octavio Paz fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:49:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: AA in NH >Assembling Alternatives >is not a prospect for most of us, at least this far out of the New >Hampshire core of things, and I for one would be grateful indeed for any >reports, on fashion or no (Kevin, you'll be missed!), that EVERYONE there, >surely (beg! Beg! cajole!), should send to the rest of us, please. I'm >really sorry not to be going, and am thus in desperate need of a fix. Have = a >good time, all. It should be quite a shindig. > >Peter > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + > Peter Quartermain > 128 East 23rd Avenue > Vancouver > B.C. > Canada V5V 1X2 > Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Oh, that Quartermain. Needs his Brit-fix. George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren de una yedra de s=EDlabras." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Octavio Paz fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:51:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Swear word here! >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures-- > >Gwyn, tres embarrassed That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough. George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren de una yedra de s=EDlabras." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Octavio Paz fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 03:26:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Swear word here! George Bowering added ("That was YOU?"): > >big oops--private message went to the list again--at least it wasn't the > >one about *my* intrigue with Rachel L. while Pierre took pictures-- > > > >Gwyn, tres embarrassed > > That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was > hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little > like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough. I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get paid for the shoot? Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 08:35:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Swear word here! In-Reply-To: <32257045.7B10@concentric.net> On Thu, 29 Aug 1996, Rachel Loden wrote: > George Bowering added ("That was YOU?"): > > > That was YOU? As Pierre is a lousy photographer, but a great poet, it was > > hard to tell who the partly-clad person was. I thought it looked a little > > like David Bromige, but the tan wasnt deep enough. > > I certainly hope Pierre finished duplicating the pictures so we can > clean up in New Hampshire. Btw that WAS Bromige in the corner, but > he seemed more interested in his baseball card collection (despite > all the brave talk about "desire"). P.S. Pierre, when do we get > paid for the shoot? > > Rachel Loden > If Bromige's other flank had been showing, he would have been recognized by the tattoo on his left, well, anyway, of Venus surrounded by cherubs and scalapinos. However, this body art is very similar to one Mark Wallace has, of Venus surrounded by veal scaloppini, so I understand why there might have been confusion. Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 11:37:08 CDT Reply-To: tmandel@cais.cais.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Gematria Yes, sorry for reading too quickly and conflating phrases and sentences to saddle you, Rob, with a description of Kabbalah as relating to "the occult," although perhaps I was also being a bit of a snob too, as in fact there *are* aspects of "occultism" and "popular religion" in the long Kabbalist tradition. And deep thanks to Gwyn and Hank. I remember David Bromige once saying "you get your readers one by one" or as Bob Dylan puts it in "Every Grain of Sand" "Sometimes I turn, there's someone there / other times it's only me." Best to all. Tom ************************************************* Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349 ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:30:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Julia Stein Subject: Re: Justice for Garment Workers Reading A Justice for Garment Workers Literary Reading will take place: September 8th, Sunday, 5:00 pm Midnight Special Bookstore Santa Monica CA 310-393-2923 Taking part will be: Mary Helen Ponce Carol Schwalberg Julia Stein Edna Bonacich This reading is in soldarity with the UNITE campaign against Guess Inc. and is sponsored by Los Angeles local, National Writers Union/U.A.W. and Common Threads from Carol Tarlen's poem "Sisters in the Flames" about the Triangle Fire: Sister of the flames take my hand I will hold you in the cradle of my billowing skirt in the ache of my shoulders the center of my palm our sisters already dance on the sidewalk nine floors below the fire is leaping through my hair Sister I will hold you the air will lick our thighs grab my hand together now fly the sky is an unlocked door and the machines are burning ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 12:32:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: THINKINGalien (fwd) thot this may be of interest to some -- > THINKING alien > is an international, inter-disciplinary event > sponsored jointly by the Centre for the Study of Cultural Values, > University of Lancaster, and the Centre for Cultural Studies, > University of Leeds, to be held at Leeds University (Roger Stevens > Building) on 16 & 17 September 1996 > > THINKING alien brings together over 50 speakers from the fields of > cultural, aesthetic and literary theory, from philosophy, musicology, > sociology and psychology > > PANEL TOPICS INCLUDE: > the philosophy of gilles deleuze; legacies of the situationists; > science fiction and cultural theory; alien aesthetics; prosthetics, > technology, culture; antihumanism and feminism; donna harraway and the > cyborg; nomadic spaces; abjection, alienation and artefactuality; > intimations of apocalypse; technologies of sound; music and dance; > sonic expression > plus multimedia performances from -jim flint - switch - digital chaos > - angus carlyle > > FEES: > stlg20/stlg15 concessions - cheques payable to University of Leeds - send > to: THINKINGalien Dept. of Fine Art University of Leeds LEEDS LS 2 9JT > please include your mail address for full conference programme > (abstracts, information, accommodation) conference registration 9.00 - > 11.00 hrs, 16 september - final panel ends 19.30 hrs, 17 september > > ACCOMMODATION: > the organisers regret that there is only a limited amount of > university accommodation available - for university accommodation > contact - 0113 2336100 - for hotel accommodation contact Leeds Leisure > Services - 0113 2425242 - or see programme for hotel listings > > THINKING alien is run in conjunction with > close very very close > a sequence of time-based installations - a programme of film and video > roger stevens building, university of leeds, 16 - 17 september, 10.00 > - 17.00 hrs information email: finemp@lucs-mac.novell.leeds.ac.uk > > FUTUREsonic > at back to basics, leeds, 17 september, 1pm - 6am > a unique multimedia symposium and club event - exploring and extending > the horizons of electronic music and dance culture - concessionary > rate of stlg8 to all attending THINKINGalien information email: > fsonic@lancaster.ac.uk - http://www.phreak.co.uk/haywire/futuresonic > > > THINKINGalien > specialists in cultural capital since 1996 > > > > > > > > > > THINKING alien > > an international, inter-disciplinary conference sponsored by the > centre for cultural studies, university of leeds, and the centre for > the study of cultural values, university of lancaster > > to be held at Leeds University (Roger Stevens Building) on 16 & 17 > September 1996 > > PAPERS AND PRESENTATIONS: > > sara ahmed (lancaster university): phantasies of becoming - john > armitage (northumbria university): accelerated aesthetics: paul > virillio's vision machine - rachel armstrong (multimedia producer, occ > multimedia): the anatomy of aliens - richard barbrook (westminster > university): the sacred cyborg - j. barton (warwick university) - > hinterlands:music, micro-politics, deleuze and guattari - diane > beddoes (leeds university): side communication - a. bennett (durham > university/ i.a.s.p.m.): t.b.c. - andrew blake: the difference engine: > music outside theory - fred botting and scott wilson (lancaster > university): ghosts of the machine: artificial imaginaries and the > second death - micheal bull (goldsmiths): technologies of the visible, > technologies of the invisible: walkman use as a strategy of looking > and disappearing - pete buse (salford university): actor inhuman - > angus carlyle (warwick university): the k's to key largo (audio-visual > presentation) - carolyn brown (greenwich university): celibatory > machines: cyborgs, cybersex and the uncanny logic of the letter - > duncan campbell (university of wales): s and before p? microserfs and > the "new" - micheal corsten: the dispositif of rave - jane crawford > (warwick university): fyb(erd)roids: alien nomad - digital chaos: > multi-media presentation - the discourse unit (chairs - angel j. > gordo-lopez (bradford university) and ian parker (bolton institute): > workshop - abjection, alienation and artefactuality: > cyberpsychological prosthetic memory - dagmar fink and anne > scheidhauer (university of frankfurt/main): cyborg narratives - phil > edwards: cultural pimping and the overthrow of situations: > (anti)situationist art - jim flint: multi-media presentation - mariam > fraser (loughborough university): springs and flows: foucault, > feminism and deleuze - jennifer friedlander (university of > pittsburgh): capturing children/ preserving aliens - mark goodall > (leeds university): basic banalities: a sonic evocation of the work of > guy debord - phil goodchild (st. martins, lancaster): alien ethics: > deleuzean ethos vs. postmodern morality - ray guines and omayra cruz > (leeds university): hopeful narratives and monstrous aliens - paul > haynes (lancaster university): we have never been human - graham > harvey (king alfred's, winchester): the technologies of ecstasy: > techno-shamanic techniques of ecstasy and neo-shamanic healing > therapies - andrew hussey (huddersfield university) and gavin bowd > (manchester university): le musee guy debord: paris by night - > alessandro imperato (keele university): inner space: symptoms of > alienation - barbara kennedy (staffordshire university): "k(n)ights in > white satin:" faciality, film and fin-de-siecle femmes - nick land > (warwick university): contagious rhythmic practices - nigel liddel > (leeds university): a geometry for life - celia lury (lancaster > university): prosthetic culture and identity - iain mackenzie (queen's > university, belfast): thinking differently: vitalism in the political > philosophy of gilles deleuze - bruce mcclure (warwick university): > xenoglossolalia: alien tongues - catherine maidens (huddersfield > university): "beneath the pose" the feminine and the alien - sarah > marklew (bolton institute): the double within science fiction film - > roland miller (huddersfield university): manufacturing an alienated > nation - simon o'sullivan (leeds university): of angels and aliens - > william pawlette (loughborough university): utility and excess: the > radical sociology of bataille and baudrillard - carl peters (simon > fraser university, british columbia): bp nichol and concrete poetry as > a source of writing and allegory - j. pettigrew: koan: how long will > koan music last? andrew quick (lancaster university): presentation > t.b.c. - andrea rehberg (greenwich university): nietzsche's desert > thought - david rice (university of california): alien prophecy - > j.k.l.scott (university of wales): loving the alien: pluralism, > polyculturalism and voodoo existence - kay schaffer (university of > adelaide): the contested zone: cybernetics, feminism and > representation - rob shields (lancaster university): cultures of the > internet - mark sinker: taking sweets from unearthly strangers: radio > waves, unearthly voices, long-distance desire - c.r.r. smethurst > (warwick uiversity): jungle duration - david sorfa: erasure and > apocalypse in three texts - marcella stecher (vienna): inner body to > outer space: deconstructing femininity in ridley scott's "alien" - > william stephenson (leeds university): the tape that exploded: william > borroughs and sonic parody - paul sutton (bradford university): > remembering the future: postcards from an alien world - switch: grey > matter (audio-visual presentation) - acim szepanski (force inc. and > mille plateaux records, hamburg): t.b.c.- yvan tardy (de montford > university): art, everyday life, spectacle: a situationist trilogy - > imogen tyler (manchester metropolitan university) and bruce bennett > (bolton institute): donna harraway's primate visions: science, fiction > and speculative futures - neil todd (manchester university): rhythmic > motion: neuronal representations of rhythm and time - j. urpeth > (greenwich university): alien forms: the vitalisation of form in art - > steven h. weinberger (george mason university, fairfax): search for > the perfect alien language - dan welch (lancaster university): alien > abduction and the memoro-politics of apocalypse - alan wright > (university of florida): echomania: from the dialectical image to the > dub encounter > > > > > > THINKING alien > > ACCOMMODATION: > > the organisers regret that there is only a limited amount of > university accommodation > for university accommodation contact- 0113 2336100 > for hotel accommodation contact Leeds Leisure Services - 0113 2425242 > - or see programme for hotel listings > > FEES: > stlg20/stlg15 concessions - cheques payable to University of Leeds > send to: > THINKINGalien > Dept. of Fine Art > University of Leeds > LEEDS > LS 2 9JT > please include your mail address for full conference programme > (abstracts, information, accommodation) conference registration 9.00 - > 11.00 hrs, 16 september final panel ends 19.30 hrs, 17 september > > THINKING alien is organised in conjunction with: > > close very very close > a sequence of time-based installations - a programme of film and video > roger stevens building, university of leeds, 16 - 17 september, 10.00 > - 17.00 hrs information email: finemp@lucs-mac.novell.leeds.ac.uk > > FUTUREsonic > a unique multimedia symposium and club event - exploring and extending > the horizons of electronic music and dance culture - stlg8 concessionary > rate for conference attendees > http://www.phreak.co.uk/haywire/futuresonic back to basics, leeds, 17 > september, 1pm - 6am information email: fsonic@lancaster.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 02:40:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Blair Seagram Subject: 12? in sanskrit Does anybody know what the sanskrit word for 12 is? Blair ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 07:57:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: need some info Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac: Writer without a home". Thanks, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 08:12:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Diane Marie Ward Subject: Re: need some info In-Reply-To: <199608301157.HAA12812@chass.utoronto.ca> The book Un homme grand : Jack Kerouac a la confluence des cultures= Jack Kerouac at the crossroads of many cultures -- is available at the University of Buffalo - we have 2 copies -- if you like (since I spend most of my daylight hours working for the Libraries) I can put you in touch with our Inter Library Loan Program / or put you in touch with the Poetry Collection. Email me backchannel. Also, does anyone have an email address for John (J. W.) Curry in Toronto? On Fri, 30 Aug 1996, Michael Boughn wrote: > Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack > Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time > tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm > specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac: > Writer without a home". > > Thanks, > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > --------------------------------------------------------------------- Diane Ward dward@acsu.buffalo.edu State University of New York at Buffalo THE AESTHETE'S LIST : http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~dward/ "I dreamt I dwelt in marble halls, And woke to find it true; I wasn't born for an age like this; Was Smith, Was Jones, Were you?" -- George Orwell written in 1935. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:44:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gale Nelson Subject: Events in Providence In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 28 Aug 1996 19:49:14 -0700 from The following events are planned for Providence in the coming weeks: Wed, 4 Sep. Poetry readings by Maurice Scully (Dublin) and Tony Lopez (Devon) 8:00 pm TF Green, Young Orchard Street, between Hope & Cook, East Side Thu, 5 Sep. Performance work by MURMUR 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address) Tue, 10 Sep. Mixed genre readings by Lori Baker (fiction) and Gale Nelson (poetry) 7:00 pm Little Professor Book Center, N. Main Street Thu, 12 Sep. Night of A Thousand and One Readings by the Graduate Students of Brown Creative Writing 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address) Thu, 19 Sep. Poetry reading by August Kleinzahler, visiting assoc. professor at Brown 8:00 pm TF Green (see above for address) Thu, 26 Sep. Fiction reading by Robert Coover 8:00 pm TF Green (see above address) 1-5 Oct. Unspeakable Practices III A festival of vanguard narrative, organized by Robert Coover Brown campus, various locations All events listed above are free and open to the public. All save the Little Professor Book Center Reading are sponsored by Creative Writing, Brown University. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:23:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: interesting article on the web a few weeks back, chris funkhouser posted in about an article on the web entitled "virtual whiteness and narrative diversity" by one joe lockard of uc/berkeley... just finished reading the piece, found it to be extremely interesting, and i too recommend it to those of you with an interest in questions of race/ethnicity and how critical discourse relating to these latter may be brought to bear on cspace... again, at http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~heroux/uc4/4-lockard.html best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:26:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Street-Art: File: "DATABASE OUTPUT" (fwd) This of much interest & concern--to be aware of. (fwd. dbchirot) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- For Immediate Release: A.R.T.I.S.T. president Robert Lederman's New Trial Date Set For 9/9/96 A new trial date has been set for Monday 9/9/96 Jury Part 1, 5th floor 100 Centre Street, Criminal Court Bldg. 9:30 A.M. The previously scheduled trial date of 7/30 was unexpectedly adjourned when a roomful of print and T.V. journalists showed up to cover the proceedings. Robert Lederman will be the first N.Y.C. street artist brought to trial. The prosecuting the case is D.A. David Jaffe. Judge Pickholtz is scheduled to hear the trial. Lederman is represented by attorney and one-time prosecutor, Marc Agnifilo (212) 768-7833. The defense has six eyewitnesses to the illegal arrest prepared to testify. Since 1993 the City has handcuffed and arrested more than 350 artists for displaying or selling their paintings on N.Y.C. streets. While it has avoided prosecuting any artist's case, the City continues to sell thousands of works of fine art it has illegally confiscated at its monthly forfeiture auction at One Police Plaza. D.A.'s and judges have begun publicly expressing disapproval of the policy. Lederman is charged with Unlicensed General Vending and two additional charges of Disorderly Conduct. Each charge carries a possible three month sentence. This is an unusual case in that the Disorderly Conduct charges as described by D.A. Jaffe at a preliminary hearing involve nothing more than the defendant handing out literature, holding up a protest sign that read, "Stop Arresting Artists", photographing the police confiscating another artists' work and handing out eight protest signs to other artists present. These activities, as well as displaying art, are fully protected by the First Amendment. Lederman has been arrested twice before for distributing literature exposing the City's artist arrest policy and numerous times while displaying his art. At a preliminary hearing held on 6/27 prosecuting D.A. David Jaffe told the presiding judge, "Robert Lederman has been arrested 13 times. If we don't stop him this will only continue. Before being arrested he handed out protest signs to the other artists and they marched up and down. He's even displaying photos of artists being arrested alongside his paintings." At that hearing the judge appeared predisposed to find Lederman guilty regardless of the facts in the case. Lederman's attorney was told he couldn't talk about the First Amendment. The judge and D.A. didn't want the defense to enter photographs taken at the arrest scene, which contradict the police report, as evidence. The judge also denied the defense the right to subpoena witnesses to testify on N.Y.C.'s vending ordinance or to enter relevant testimony by City officials from the ongoing street artist Federal suit, including the Corporation Counsel's admission that artists, "...cannot obtain a Vending License". [Lederman v. City of New York 94 civ. 7216 (MGC)]. The Federal case is presently before the 2nd Circuit Federal Appeals Court with a decision expected at any time. Numerous museums, arts and legal rights groups, including the ACLU, The Whitney and MOMA have joined the suit in support of the artist- plaintiffs. Lederman is president of A.R.T.I.S.T. an advocacy group of over 200 New York street artists. He has been an outspoken critic of Mayor Rudolph Giuliani's quality of life arrest policies and of City Council Member Kathryn Freed. Freed is known to be a motivating force behind the artist arrests and, according to the N.Y. Times, is in Federal Court "..seeking to overturn Constitutional protection for visual art". Observers believe this Criminal Court trial is an attempt to intimidate artist activists. Recently, Lederman and other A.R.T.I.S.T. members distributed a controversial leaflet at Criminal Court ("Why Plead Guilty?") advising so-called "quality of life" defendants to not plead guilty or accept plea bargaining arrangements and to demand a trial. Members of the D.A.'s office, defense lawyers and judges agreed with the leaflet, causing the Giuliani administration considerable embarrassment. A number of reporters claim they've been pressured by City officials and by the NYPD not to continue covering the street artist issue. For more information or to receive a press kit contact A.R.T.I.S.T. (718) 369-2111 E-mail ARTISTpres@aol.com or visit the A.R.T.I.S.T. web page: http://www.openair.org/alerts/artist/nyc.html Photos of this and other artist arrests are available. References to this trial, artist arrests and related material can be found in the following: New York Times, Sunday July 14, 1996, City section pg 13, lead story); "The War of Nerves Downtown; Kathryn Freed's War of Nerves" [detailed expose of City Council Member Freed] New York Times Magazine, Sunday July 14, 1996 pg. 8 The City "It's a Quality, Quality Life" Art In America, March 1996 pg. 128 "New Allies for Street Artists" New York Times Wednesday, January 24, 1996 Metro section pg. B1 "Street Art: Free Speech or Just Stuff?" New York Magazine, January 23, 1995 pg 16 "Among the Artlaws" Christian Science Monitor Thursday, July 14, 1994 pg. 11 "New York Reins In Street Art" Christian Science Monitor Wednesday, February 14, 1996 "Conflict On the Street: Artists v. N.Y.C." Time Out Magazine Feb 21-27 1996 pg. 18 "Peddle Pushers" New York Amsterdam News Saturday, June 15, 1996 pg. 4 "Artists To Sue Over First Amendment Right of Speech". --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:02:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis CURRENT PRICE LIST from SUBPOETICS/POETRY CITY _Sea Lyrics_ by Lisa Jarnot $5 _Western Love_ by Bill Luoma $5 _Lapsis Linguae_ by Marcella Durand $5 _Immediate Orgy & Audit_ by Ange Mlinko $5 _August_ by Dan Bouchard (special issue of Compound Eye, ed. A. Mlinko) $1 _Thunk_ by Kevin Davies $3 _A Little Gold Book_ by Jordan Davis $5 _Sincerity Loops_ by Steve Carll $5 and now... MASS AVE, ed. by Dan Bouchard $5 since 1996 Mass Ave has featured such writers as Jawanza Ali Keita, Ange Mlinko, Jordan Davis, Renee Gladman, Chris Stroffolino, David Baratier, Giovanni Singleton, Bill Luoma, Lisa Amber Phillips, Beth Anderson, Meredith Quartermain, Steve Carll, Michael Leddy and David Golumbia-- "the tightest pants in heaven" To order, send an email to jdavis@panix.com with your street address and the books you need. Add $3 for first class shipping, orders over $25 add $0 for shipping even though here in New York we have to take all of our packages to the post office somebody with a tv let me know if the unabomber movie is any good. Jordan Davis 46 E 7 #10 NYC 10003 jdavis@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 13:14:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Kerouac >Does anybody on the list know of a book called _Un Homme grand: Jack >Kerouac a la confluence des cultures_? I'm having a really hard time >tracking it down. Even Buffalo doesn't seem to have it. I'm >specifically interested in an essay by Gerald Nicosia called "Kerouac: >Writer without a home". > >Thanks, >Mike >mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca Mike, Yeah, the book is as you titled it. Edited by Pierre Anctil, Louis Dupont, Remi Ferland and Eric Waddell. Published by carleton University Press, 1990. It's proceedings from that Kerouac conference in Quebec.It is distributed by Oxford, so shd be easily obtainable. Nicosia's piece is 20pp long. George Bowering. "Nuestros cuerpos se cubren de una yedra de s=EDlabras." 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 --Octavio Paz fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca =20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 14:19:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner Sun & Moon is publishing PAW soon in its new magazine: Mr Knife, Miss Fork. Hannah's wonderful narrative will be one of the major works in that special issue devoted to the "theatrical" in lit. Douglas Messerli At 10:11 PM 8/26/96 -0500, you wrote: >james sherry writes: >> Roof Books will publish Hannah's Weiner's <> this fall. I >> will try to make a special offer to the list when the book becomes available. > >goody! in the meantime, where can i get "PAH" or PAW, that charles mentioned? >> >> Meanwhile, Maria, I wonder about your theory. The themes in Hannah's >> writing don't seem to me to have much to do with holocaust. A list of >> them would show late sixties tv and political issues, the fast, >> lsd, family, friends, and isolation. Why not take her at her word? > >i'm not talking about thematics so much as effect; her writing as an effect of >post-holocaust (Jewish) subjectivity. something like that. not trying to >ferret out any subtext. still, thanks for the list of identifiable themes. >> >> The interest for me in Hannah's writing has always been her ability to >> weave through inside and out without the usual membranes and transitions. >> For Hannah much of what we call art comes quite easily to her once she >> has put herself in a particular position, which I don't need to characterize. > >good point; i like stuff about weaving and membranes. >> >> Also see Maria Damon's essay in the new issue of <>: Hannah makes >> a pure play at consciousness by mixing genres. Sometimes she succeeds and >> the reader is pleased. > >interesting; what specific genres wd u say she mixes? >> >> James >maria d > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:45:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jeffrey timmons Subject: xxx/event: one In-Reply-To: xxx/event: one they took over the campus at arizona state university this week 75,000 people coming for the supperbowl corporate hospitality suites rise over the sacred parking lots worshiped by high and low alike classes were cancelled for two days closed the library early locked the doors completely to accomodate stuporsunday official souvenir vendor distribution sites for all this splurf-fest capital guzzle feed-trough greenback shower of the sports season a soft-drink company (who will remain anonymous so as not to endorse this product unwittingly) will throw a party for students with hot dogs for sale a local hemp spokesman says he will sell dope at the scupperbog the economic wind fall for tempe phoenix arizona will be tremendous according to the saturation coverage by the arizona republic(an) for the potential to "cash-in" on the xxx/event arizona state university is "bloated and inefficient" according to a republican govenor whos filed for bankruptcy budget cuts will likely lead to tuition raises while the other two state schools will suffer no such cutbacks the stutterbloff is on more peoples minds than the next goverment shut-down arizona state university students marched down the main strip of tempe protesting the ironies of this money-gozzling fleet-ditch diving city . . . ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 31 Aug 1996 12:23:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglis Beck Subject: Corbu Poetics? does anyone know of poetics works mentioning, dealing with, anything on Le Corbusier's Ronchamp Chapel? I imagine this is a longshot, but architecture school makes you desperate. & hey Rod(Smith)--did you ever get the (e)mail I sent you so very long ago? thanks. douglis