========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:18:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) >I heard Dole on TV a few weeks ago; he was using the word "liberal" as if >that were a comminly-understood pejorative. Has it really come to that in >the U.S.? Yes, & the "liberal" president signs Nafta, dumps healthcare, cuts welfare, etc. etc. etc. Of course when you point out that the media might have something to do with such idiocy people say oh no no can't be that, harr, hmmmgghh. There's a documentary I would recommend called Manufacturing Consent. >Has there been social democratic politics in the U.S.? Yup, lots. Not much in power, some FDR policies. Them Wobblies and such that got the Wagner Act (legalization of unions) through is what I'm refering to. Don't remember the source of this information but apparently May Day began as a European Worker's Holiday to show solidarity with American workers. Europeans were horrified by the extent of violence labor had to endure in this country. They acheived legal unionization long before it happened here. Of course here MayDay is known only as a Stalinist "celebration." Also re something AL said: >the giving away of huge tax subsidies to people who get rich from sports arenas What about public subsidy of defense. That's REALLY where you're money's going. It's public money for private profit. Also re Jeff & Henry's point about legislation. Despite my cynicism, I think there should be more engagement-- after all there is some hope, even a bit of evidence, that people CAN effect the government-- not the boardroom. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:30:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) yes Joe, it's let's see do I vote for the business party or the business party I don't argue that the medium of television is inherently evil. clearly it _could_ be a good thing. love them Simpsons. But what is there reflects very largely the interests of those who own it, period. I.e. not you or me or MOST OF US. Whether the net will/can be something counter that corporate _force_ remains to be seen. There's an interesting new group -- The Cultural Environment Movement, doing good work around this. Again, just getting started. . . O, & Jordan the line was "right wingers, because they are dumb/ also tend to be greedy & violent" not "moody & violent" --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 00:42:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: getting goats Somebody (in Australia) wanted to know how to order the Mountain Goats. Don't know if information was offered. Best I can say is write Shrimper PO Box 1837 Upland, CA 91785 USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 23:21:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) >Europeans were horrified by the extent of violence labor had to endure in >this country. They acheived legal unionization long before it happened here. >Of course here MayDay is known only as a Stalinist "celebration." Yr right. Not only did they achieve legal unionization before they did in the US, but they also (especially in Britain) very early worked in the parliamentary area, getting seats in the government. The US is the only big manufacturing country I know of that does not have some sort of labour party. But I have heard USAmericans in some contexts refer to the Democrats as "the left." and I have heard of people like Ted Kennedy called "the left." In most countries Ted kennedy would be considered a cautious centrist. I suppose that the US Democratic Party would be considered left of the US Republican Party, but in most modern countries, the Democrats would be just a little right of center. The US has no large left-of-center political body, not one that can win seats. I think that such a situation can only lead to disaster. I hear the term "medicare" used by USAmericans somnetimes; I think I heard that you have to be old to get it. How can a people that desire democracy put up with such a situation? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:45:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Literary Culture The following ran in Wednesday's edition of the Wall Street Urinal and is lurid in several senses of the word. For one thing, the next time some insufferable critic says "why isn't poetry as popular as fiction?" you could give him/her a copy of this.... LEISURE & ARTS: Books, Booker, Bookies Paul Levy Copyright 1996 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. CITATION The Wall Street Journal, October 30, 1996 DATELINE London TEXT Something is seriously wrong with the Booker prize. Somebody always profits from the world's premier literary prize, but until he got the news of his $32,000 award last night, it wasn't Graham Swift or any of the other five shortlisted British Commonwealth writers of fiction. According to the British national newspaper, the Times, in the week of Oct. 12, the third week after the announcement of the shortlist, the Canadian author Margaret Atwood's contender, "Alias Grace" (Bloomsbury, #16.99; Nan A. Talese/Doubleday, $24.95), a historical novel about a real-life double murder, sold a disappointing 485 copies in Britain, putting the book at No. 53 in the top 5,000 books of any description sold that week. And she was top. Beryl Bainbridge, one of only two English writers on the Booker list, sold only 161 British copies of "Every Man for Himself" (Duckworth, #14.99; Carroll & Graf, $21), her tale of the sinking of the Titanic. Ms. Bainbridge stood at 426 in the overall sales list, whereas Seamus Deane, the Northern Irish-born poet who teaches at the University of Notre Dame and whose first novel is "Reading in the Dark" (Cape, #13.99), sold only 75 and stood at 1,655. Set in the 1940s and 1950s in Derry, and dealing with a child's discoveries of grown-up betrayal, this is yet another historical novel. I suppose all six books could be said to be historical in this limited sense, for Rohinton Mistry's richly generous "A Fine Balance" (Faber, #15.99; Knopf, $26), which struck me as the only book listed that really deserved a prize, is set in India during Mrs. Gandhi's "State of Internal Emergency" in the 1970s. This novel, with its cast of fiercely independent widow, students, tailors and Dickens-worthy Beggarmaster, and its confidently handled complicated narrative, sold 66 copies in Britain, which put it at 1,981. Scottish Shena Mackay's "The Orchard on Fire" (Heinemann, #12.99; Moyer Bell, $19.95), a delicate story of a little girl during Coronation Year, now seems set in a distant past. It is a gentle but stirring book that explores the nuances of class in an English village. Though artful in its construction, it sold only 20 copies the week in question, too few to make the top 5,000 list. This was also true of the winner, the only other book on the shortlist by an English writer: Mr. Swift's "Last Orders" Picador, #15.99; Knopf, $23) sold three copies in Britain. Though set more or less in the present, the virtuoso flashbacks, shifting narrative technique and south London dialect give this tale of a day's outing in which four men carry out the last wishes and dispose of the ashes of their friend, a London butcher, so firm a sense of time and place that I think you could argue that it is also a historical novel. As the authors and their publishers do not appear to be making a mint from this year's Booker nominations, who is profiting? The answer is: the bookies. By this Monday William Hill alone had already taken over $80,000. By contrast with the book-buying public, the money was, rightly so, on Mr. Swift, whose odds were even money, with big bets on Margaret Atwood pushing her up to second favorite late Monday afternoon. Mr. Swift had been Ladbroke's favorite since the day of the announcement of the short list a month ago. The opening odds, by the way, are set by real bookies. Graham Sharpe, who produces the odds for William Hill, told the Observer's racing correspondent on Sunday that he reads the first few pages of each book, then a chunk from the middle and another from the end to establish the opening prices, "and amends them when he has read all of the runners from cover to cover." In past years you could have been forgiven for thinking that was how the judges themselves chose the actual winner. Just to remind you of the Booker's ignominious immediate past, the 1993 prize went to Roddy Doyle's meretricious domestic weepy "Paddy Clarke Ha Ha Ha," in the year in which Vikram Seth's majestic "A Suitable Boy" wasn't even shortlisted. In 1994 the judges scored another own-goal and gave the laurels to James Kelman's wholly unreadable mixture of Glasgow dialect and foul obscenity, "How Late It Was, How Late," while in 1995 they overlooked Salman Rushdie's magnificent "The Moor's Last Sigh" and gave it to the politically correct, but anachronism-laden choice, Pat Barker's "The Ghost Road." This year the shortlist was relatively uncontroversial: There were no positively bad books on the list and, except for novels by A.S. Byatt, David Malouf, Michael Dibdin, Ben Elton and Margaret Drabble (who, in any case, published hers a little after the deadline and grandly refuses to let her publishers enter her work anyway), no obvious omissions. This is a tribute to the judges, especially to the tough and colorful chairman, Carmen Callil. Ms. Callil, one of the most flamboyant figures in the history of British publishing, is an Australian who came here in the 1960s, founded the feminist publishing house, Virago, ran the old firm of Chatto & Windus for a time, and recently left the publishing industry with many mutual expressions of ill-will. She is a great and powerful woman, and all Britain waits to see what she will do next in her starry career. The gross errors of past years have probably resulted from internecine conflict among the judges. Last year's chairman, retiring Conservative M.P. George Walden, kept his panel happy, but could not prevent their outvoting him and giving the nod to Ms. Barker. There have been no reports of dissension from Ms Callil's fellow judges -- novelists Jonathan Coe, A.L. Kennedy and A.N. Wilson (also literary editor of the London Evening Standard), and Ian Jack, editor of Granta -- and nobody misbehaved at last night's awards dinner at London's Guildhall. Still, the method used by the bookies seems as satisfactory as that used by the judges in most years. So here is a modest proposal. Why not save thousands of man-hours of reading done by the judges in order to weed the 150 hopefuls submitted by the publishers, and let the bookies actually choose next year's Booker shortlist? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 03:33:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Let a Thousand Parties Bloom.... Mary Hilton, I inadvertently deleted the Poetics Digest message before responding directly to your post for info on that political discourse project. Send me info on that! And don't lapse into lurkerhood. -------------------------------------- Rod, The _only_ 3rd party that, as of today, has any hope of stabilizing as anything more than a drain on the other candidates (and even that is a few elections down the road), is Perot's Reform Party. Which, as I think I made clear, I see as a variant of fascism with Mickey Mouse ears. But if it qualifies for Federal Matching Funds, I would expect to see it do something serious in a post-Ross phase. I think you will find the Bill Bradleys and Paul Tsongas types out competing with the retired generals living next to golf courses in the year 2000 or 2004. There is, however, a good chance that Ross will drive it out of existence by running a third time. What Nader has done with the Green Party endorsement has been entirely irresponsible -- he's basically trashed them and then done nothing with the opportunity they afforded him to do something real. They of course got what they deserve in giving their nomination to somebody who has no interest in their agenda. This may be no dumber than the Peace & Freedom party giving its nomination in 1968 to Eldridge Cleaver (my first presidential vote!), but it's no smarter either. ------------------------------ Maria, Aldon et al, Your very to-the-point responses to my question about sending work to unseen journals reminds me that the two basic methods of getting published remain submission & solicitation, two terms that also carry subtexts of sexuality and power (or powerlessness). Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:11:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Literary Culture In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 1 Nov 1996 02:45:43 -0800 from Although NY left Great Britain, what, 200 yrs ago now? seems some of the newspapers there still favor the big colonial epics. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:12:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Let a Thousand Parties Bloom.... ron rites: > Maria, Aldon et al, > > Your very to-the-point responses to my question about sending work to > unseen journals reminds me that the two basic methods of getting > published remain submission & solicitation, two terms that also carry > subtexts of sexuality and power (or powerlessness). > > Ron Silliman > rsillima@ix.netcom.com i rite: compared to what? how 'bout "application" and "invitation?" md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:14:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: a real book review [long, maybe] Here's a review of a real book(& kinda long). Delete now or hold your piece. Jennifer Moxley Imagination Verses Tender Buttons, 1996 This is a moving & accomplished real book of lyric poetry, the kind of work that comes around very rarely. That is, the contemporary American poetry scene is highly energized, there is a lot of talent out there, but rarely does a poet bring it all together in one volume as stirringly as Moxley has. It's extraordinary. From the brief preface, graceful & ambitious & (consciously or not) echoing Whitman from the first words, this book fulfills its daring promise. What Moxley does is begin with the careful, stripped-down phrasing of Oppen or WCW, & an alert, informed, compassionate, ironic, sardonic, & highly stylized X-generation(?) (sorry, older, what-ho, chap here) consciousness. Beginning with these resources, she pushes them into regions of vocabulary & lyricism with roots stretching back to John Donne & before. The result is a sudden awareness that the tradition of lyric poetry is alive & well & dangerous to settled complacencies & self-absorbed attitudes on every level of the social scale. The tone is bitter & sweet, the distance maintained with miraculous balance (between the strictly personal & the social, the paradigmatic) by wit & humor. Here is the not-so-surprising surprise. The attitude, vision & skill I hear most emphatically moving to support this purely American sound is that of W.H. Auden. There is the same brooding ironic combination of skepticism & openness, the loping accent & sudden foreshortening lyricism (early Auden especially), the scientific/witty use of abstractions. Moxley throws around abstractions & general words not in the heavy-handed, dehumanized way of much experimental writing, nor does she eschew them as in most moo-brow U.S. verse. In her work abstraction is integrated into the general modal drive & wit of the poem, whether it's an "ode" on "particles", or an evisceration of "centurions". Finally, there is the sense of Auden's magisterial command of all forms, whether social or literary. (o.k. this is not a review of a new Auden book, sorry...) This book should bring joy. It brings honor to American poetry. (& this local is proud to know it was written over time spent in Providence.yahooey!) Where Moxley continues, huh, next? Hers is a politically motivated/integrated pose - a discouragement with contemporary (American) dungeons - counterbalanced by the same kind of poet's hope - the hope which makes language a social obligation, & the poet's destiny a going forward into crowds & shared disasters; not planted in a private agenda of either scripto- or egomania. The poetry is a mysterious third element brought out of the experience of discovering it. Just as she manages to balance new/old in her manner, her philosophical approach is a counterweighting of lyrical idealism & its ironies against a downbeat of earth-centered materialism (epitomized in her image of Virgil heading back down to Hell, in the sequence "Ten Still Petals"). (Sorry for the heavy-handed abstractions, gongheads.) I hope "her contemporaries" (to whom the book is forsightedly dedicated) & the author will not be embarrassed by this praise. We may live in the same town, but we ain't even acquaintances - this may sound like puffery, but it's just enthusiasm. This is...this book is...well hey, really something (as we say, emphatically, sort of, with a happy face, & a wave, back in Minnesota). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:11:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: getting goats Rod, I like 'moody and violent' better. It made me feel like I had something in common with right wingers _besides_ my violent greed. Not to be a goat in a field of violets, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:11:28 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sherry Brennan Subject: politics & poetics This is kind of a response to Dodie's posting a couple of days ago and to the discussion in general. I just caught up on the list for the week this morning. I think that the position of women vis-a-vis politics is very different from the position of men. And here I do mean to speak specifically about the biological (which I actually usually avoid) and historical. Women couldn't vote until this century and still are very much so minority voices in the political process, especially at the national level. So when Jeff asks why poetry does not have political effect, that question has a different resonance for me. I don't think that there can be one definition of the political, even if we limit ourselves to talking about the political process, if only for this reason, that women (and blacks and native americans and hispanics and gays and blue collar workers and jazz musicians and and) are taken up into the political process in very specific and differing ways. And I think that what political efficacy poetry can have--if we are now talking about the ways that poetry might be taken up in the world--has very much to do with the poet's and the readers' positioning in the world. I think that Amiri Baraka's oeuvre has had political effect, although I do not know a lot about what effect that is. And I would say that that political effect has had to do with his position as a black male in the later 20th century, rather than the effect of a poetics in general. I think we can look to other countries, eastern europe, for example, and talk about poetry having political effect right now. And now I'm not on ground that's very familiar for me, so I don't want to sound dogmatic. But anyway, I do think the specificity of the writer and her position in the world is what makes for political effect, not the genre of poetry in general. And, finally, it seems that the definition of the personal as political is often discussed in connection with gender issues. And I'm willing to say for my own poetry, that I think cultural effect is a kind of political effect, when it comes to gender (in my case). Because we have to change the way people think in addition to changing how they vote or otherwise act in the world, set policy, etc. And change for women at the political level also entails (I would go so far as to say--depends on) change on many other cultural and social registers. These kinds of change are completely interdependant. And writing is one way to change the way people think. and. p.s. calvin trilling's poetry is an example of political poetry that sucks as poetry. Sherry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 07:34:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Let a Thousand Parties Bloom.... Ron Silliman wrote: > Maria, Aldon et al, > > Your very to-the-point responses to my question about sending work to > unseen journals reminds me that the two basic methods of getting > published remain submission & solicitation, two terms that also carry > subtexts of sexuality and power (or powerlessness). Yes, I've often thought of proposing a magazine named something like _Dominance and Submission: a Journal of Literary Bitchcraft_. Copies of that (unlike, say, _The Journal of English and Germanic Philology_), might really fly out the door. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:55:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 30 Oct 1996 to 31 Oct 1996 Reading from the outside, I have been fascinated by the politics & poetry thread but felt it was essentially USAmerican. I agree with the following in its praise of Silliman's trenchant note: "Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:34:35 -0500 From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) Ron, Thanks for the great post. What third party movement are you more impressed by? New Party? Nader? I've been supporting the New Party which seems a genuine attempt to get a labor party going, not based around any one persona-- but long long way to go. >By jettisoning its base, the door-to-door Union volunteer >(capital U), the Democratic party has largely opened up this space. It seems fairly clear that the disappearance of social democratic politics from the public sphere is strongly related to the rise of television as a source of "information." What response do you, others, see to this." from the outside, this is all fascinating, & of course, up here, we cant help but be 'aware' of your election, since it will have its effects on 'us.' So, today, the CBC had a story on the 'fact' (?) that most of the under 30 crowd in the US is getting its political 'information' from Letterman & Leno. Hmm. I was thinking, as I am teaching people like Creeley, Levertov, & even Ashbery to a class here these weeks, that various approaches to the question of 'whose language is it' which these poets practice in various ways, is a 'political' act of sorts, even if it reaches only a small audience to begin with. For the problem, as Silliman & others have suggested, is that for so many, there seems to be only one discourse available. Poetry can begin to question that assumption, at least. And we need such questioning up here as much as down there. All the best Doug Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 'The universe opens. I close. And open, just to surprise you.' - Phyllis Webb ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:22:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) this is to second the chomsky-based book (and video) that rod mentions, _manufacturing consent_... i'd like to throw-in here on this question of invitation/solicitation for publishing... i recently tried to append to a piece (recently published, but which shall go unnamed) a one paragraph summary of the network that had resulted in my writing and publishing the piece... i tried to do so w/o appearing ungrateful, and i tried to do so b/c it was clearly a MALE network that had resulted in my having written and published said item... nothing insidious here in terms of motivations---but my point was that we all needed to work harder to open things up some, which latter point resonated with the gist of my piece (at least, as i saw it---but i tend to be associative when it comes to such stuff)... needless to say, said concluding para was chopped on the editorial end w/o comment... and i can't quite blame the editor, b/c he had his constraints too... but i do wish to observe here that it's sometimes damned difficult to render legible the networking apparatus, in order to change it... and mebbe if i were a better man, i would have balked at publishing my piece w/o that concluding para... or at least have made more noise about it, which i *did* in fact do wrt several other paras... anyway... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 08:45:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) Rod Smith wrote: > Don't remember the source of this information but apparently May Day began as > a European Worker's Holiday to show solidarity with American workers. > Europeans were horrified by the extent of violence labor had to endure in > this country. They acheived legal unionization long before it happened here. > Of course here MayDay is known only as a Stalinist "celebration." May Day began in the 1880s in the US, with the fight for an eight-hour work day. Now, of course, we're one of the only countries not to observe it (with Canada and at least the old South Africa, I think). Some history: "In 1884, the Federation of Organized Trades and Labor Unions passed a resolution stating that eight hours would constitute a legal day's work from and after May 1, 1886. The resolution called for a general strike to achieve the goal, since legislative methods had already failed. With workers being forced to work ten, twelve, and fourteen hours a day, rank-and-file support for the eight-hour movement grew rapidly, despite the indifference and hostility of many union leaders. By April 1886, 250,000 workers were involved in the May Day movement." My grandfather (who was a socialist before he left Russia in the 1880s), had nothing but contempt for "Labor Day," which is a holiday without any history at all in labor struggle. "May Day is the only Labor Day," said he. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: Tiger chasing its tail (or tale) >this is to second the chomsky-based book (and video) >that rod mentions, _manufacturing consent_... Joe, yes I'm at times "mouthing Chomsky." I have spent a fair amount of time with his writings, tapes, etc. I find him convincing on many questions. There is a danger though, I think, of his views becoming identified solely with his persona. He is after all "a star" leftist intellectual-- but his positions are actually useful in understanding the world (imagine that!) & he makes no claims to the originality of his analyses. Other writers I'd champion on these questions & related include Ward Churchill, Holly Sklar, Christopher Hitchens, Cornel West. A book called _Goodyear Invades the Backcountry: The Corporate Takeover of a Rural Town_ by Bryan Palmer gives one a little perspective on "downsizing" or what they're now calling "right-sizing." Common Courage and South End seem the better publishers in these areas these days. & Monthly Review. & New Press. Thanks for the info on May Day Rachel! "Intelligent Action!" said John Dewey. I only read about it. . . --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 11:51:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Let a Thousand Parties Bloom.... In message <327A189A.3E22@concentric.net> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Ron Silliman wrote: > > > Maria, Aldon et al, > > > > Your very to-the-point responses to my question about sending work to > > unseen journals reminds me that the two basic methods of getting > > published remain submission & solicitation, two terms that also carry > > subtexts of sexuality and power (or powerlessness). > > Yes, I've often thought of proposing a magazine named something like > _Dominance and Submission: a Journal of Literary Bitchcraft_. Copies > of that (unlike, say, _The Journal of English and Germanic > Philology_), might really fly out the door. > > Rachel Loden rachel, diva of poetixleaze, you have my undying admiration for the scope of your i-magic-nation. now, george b, you randy old goat, did i hear, embedded in your last post, an exquisitely abject plea for a non-foucauldian discipline et punissement?--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:59:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Carll 23, Szamatowicz 22 Steve Carll 23, Carol Szamatowicz 22 at Poetry City, 10/31 7:25 p.m. TIME: C (30 mins), S (30 mins). ATTENDANCE: 25 San Francisco poet Steve Carll read 23 poems and Carol Szamatowicz read 22 poems at Poetry City on Halloween. Steve, in a red t-shirt, beige slacks and white Converse sneakers, read poems from his books _Sincerity Loops_ and _trace a moment's closure for clues_, and from an unpublished manuscript entitled _Drugs_. As has been noted on this listserv before, Steve sweetly manipulates the lyrics of songs that he likes, elaborating clear new syntaxes from 'When the rain comes...' or 'And the train conductor said, take a break Driver 8'. Among the poems in the new book are some startlingly successful erasures of Robert Bly, poems written to movies, and poems whose formal restrictions were assigned by editors. Solicit and submit, indeed! Steve (citing Jeff Conant as the influence) burst into discursive prose for his last segment, _Drugs_. These brief essays on perception and effect contained such lines as: "Alcohol can turn any morning into a wake", "Fame never went to crack's head like some other drugs we could mention", "LSD, better known as the fifth Beatle", "Hi! Marijuana's not a drug but it plays one on tv." Steve closed with a poem called "New Jack York". Good reading. Ordinarily we have an intermission, but it was Halloween and people were antsy, so I rushed right into Carol Szamatowicz's reading. Co-host Anna Malmude came up to the mike to give a second introduction to Carol -- "I'd like to introduce one of my many moms." Carol elaborated: 'My daughter is Anna's sister.' Then Carol read twenty-two pieces from her manuscript of prose-poems. Carol writes Faginescas, a form named after Larry Fagin and also practiced by Michael Friedman and Gillian McCain. Where Michael's are Fred Astaire and Gillian's are Susan Sontag, Carol's Faginescas are Anthony Trollope. Carol pays a lot of attention to the salient details of social interaction, which facts I observe in the modest and informative sentences she prefers. Anyway. Carol wore a black silk top and slacks. Here are some things she said: "These cheeses are history", "There's only five channels and beer. I accept that.", "There is a couple who loved eachother since childhood and that is all that is left of them", "I think you are the one who spilled", "Besides the suspicion of sleep there is the treachery of wood", "I was a brisk little tooth drifting to earth", "My genius uses itself up in the austere nudity of self-reliance", "Boredom that makes us long for the freedom of combat", "Lick something everyday, I say", "A hell where we feed ourselves with three-foot chopsticks." Well I take back that part about Trollope. In the audience were: Rick Hill, Bill Luoma, Katy Lederer, Anselm Berrigan, Karl Parker, Larry Fagin, Douglas Rothschild, Drew Gardner and David Golumbia. Steve's titles were: The Time of Yellow Grass The Sun Nets an Orpheus Poem Founded Upon Contemplation of Tenderness Melia Driving to Minnesota During Hanoi Noe Valley It's Rain Southern Sky Don't Don't I Equals You, We Is the Generator Hey, Your Highness's Complaint Won't Is In Don't Toned Corpreces (?) ????? Sunday at the AMC DRUGS Alcohol Caffeine Crack Heroin LSD Marijuana Methamphetamine New Jack York Carol's titles were: Floods Trees Body Murk Cats and Birds A Drag to Our Neighbors Back Brain Faceless Doll Flash By Furthermore Hallowed Aid Long Summer Draw Losing Ground Method Murder She Wrote Perfect Fool Private Lesson Quantum Corridor Startrekian Sticky Picket Zoop Jamie What Will Rime Put I hope some of you can make it to next Thursday's reading, which, God willing, will be John Wieners and Eleni Sikelianos. Come to Poetry City, where we give you food and wine, and we do as little as possible to pre-contextualize the readings for you. Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:15:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Let a Thousand Parties Bloom.... >rachel, diva of poetixleaze, you have my undying admiration for the scope of >your i-magic-nation. now, george b, you randy old goat, did i hear, >embedded in >your last post, an exquisitely abject plea for a non-foucauldian discipline et >punissement?--md Maria: All I want is my share. When I got into poetry in the sixties they promised all sorts of things. I mean I could have spent my life as a window-dresser. Come on. I want whatever T.S. Eliot and X.J. Kennedy got. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:22:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: HH Gould Subject: Re: Let a Thousand Parties Bloom.... In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:15:47 -0800 from On Fri, 1 Nov 1996 10:15:47 -0800 George Bowering said: >Come on. I want whatever T.S. Eliot and X.J. Kennedy got. > You gotta give up something to get what they got. Like your first name. - H.H. ["God of This World"] Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 14:39:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: some dissonance George wrote: > How can a people that desire democracy put up with such a situation? Kevin K., this is what I meant when I used the phrase "cognitive and emotional dissonace" re Jennifer Moxley's _Imagination Verses_. She doesn't back away from it, at all. & the phrase "monogamy capitalism" -- a little personalizing of the term late capitalism. Heterosexual monogamy being the only "acceptable" choice. Of course one can choose otherwise but outside of a few urban areas (and often within them) it is very difficult. I.e. you often won't be supported in your choice. One is robbed, literally, of choices about one's life, never mind it's "style." Of course this is all there in your work, just wanted to clarify my own meanderings a bit. Moxley's poem "The Right to Counsel" begins: "The mighty symbols/ have snuck away/ with human memory./ Actions are now/ horrifically undressed/ lest they should/ corner the market." The "Ode to Protest" begins "It's as if to be real/ you and I must garner backers/ without a rib to call our own." I want to go on quoting, I really do. "Things" _are not_ "ok." --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 13:45:58 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: eric pape Subject: Re: JH and Political poetry In-Reply-To: The position that "political" discourse is only such if actually effective encounters some obvious absurdities, not least the effacement of this presidential election. Certainly, you would be hard put to figure out the "relavance" and the "effectiveness" of a Republican that gave up months ago. Would then everything said by Dole et al on TV etc be considered apolitical? Thanks, Eric. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:01:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Roberts Subject: May Day Thanks Rachel for the May Day background. I believe the first labor celebration was held in Chicago, but could not remember whether it was before or after the Haymarket affair of 1886. Not surprisingly my desk dictionary could shed no light on that-- May Day being first a spring ritual and second a labor holiday "in a number of places"-- the US connection is expunged. Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:26:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: JH and Political poetry In-Reply-To: <961101.135021.CST.ENPAPE@LSUVM.SNCC.LSU.EDU> this strikes me at least as a strangely good question: probably many on the list assume that both parties speech is effectively apolitical, but how does our assumption mediate our poetries' relation to the broader society On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, eric pape wrote: > The position that "political" discourse is only such if actually effective > encounters some obvious absurdities, not least the effacement of this > presidential election. Certainly, you would be hard put to figure out > the "relavance" and the "effectiveness" of a Republican that gave up > months ago. Would then everything said by Dole et al on TV etc be > considered apolitical? Thanks, Eric. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 12:27:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: SPT readings This is Dodie This Saturday, tomorrow, November 2, Small Press Traffic presents Renee Gladman and Bob Perelman at New College (on Valencia between 18th and 19th in San Francisco) at 7:30 p.m. I'd include the snappy flyer copy KK and I wrote, but it's on my regular computer which broke and got "fixed" and which I have had the nerve to re-hook up yet. But, trust me, this will be a great event! Renee is one of the brightest stars to come out of the New College Poetics Program. Her cutting-edge skateboarding through lyricism and narrative, I think, will work nicely with Bob's impulses in similar directions -- though using an entirely different palette of subject matter and influence. The last couple of readings at SPT have blown me away--Erin Moure and Lisa Robertson; Kathleen Fraser and Joan Retallack. Robertson and Retallack, in particular, dazzled us with a rollercoaster of effects. The scope of those two gals! It was so interesting/stimulating talking with all of these women I'm feeling that readings alone aren't enough--I'd like to figure out a way to work in a discussion of process in future events. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 15:27:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Lease Subject: Re: May Day In-Reply-To: <01IBC36QODTE8ZVXUJ@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> Anyone care to share Christopher Hill / Gerard Winstanley style musings on the relation of the early modern maying times to the nineteenth century ie Romantic Marx On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Gary Roberts wrote: > Thanks Rachel for the May Day background. I believe the first labor > celebration was held in Chicago, but could not remember whether it was before > or after the Haymarket affair of 1886. Not surprisingly my desk dictionary > could shed no light on that-- May Day being first a spring ritual and second > a labor holiday "in a number of places"-- the US connection is expunged. > > Gary R > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 19:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Yunte Huang Subject: Help Eliot A Chinese researcher of Am. Lit asked me to find this: a group of poems by T.S. Eliot were published recently for the first time because Eliot didn't want them to be seen. Where can I find information about it? The World Headquarter for Reincarnation?-- Forgive the joke, but someone who knows please help me. Yunte Huang ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 20:17:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Oren Izenberg Subject: Re: Help Eliot In-Reply-To: The new/old Eliot poems are probably to be found in Christopher Ricks' new "edition" of early Eliot-- which, in addition to making available a number of poems that up until now have been available in hard (and impossible) to access manuscripts, has a huge amount of hard information and informed speculation about source, allusion, and context literary and (and otherwise) in the notes. Ricks is, for better or for worse, Eliot's dream editor-- in his sympathies as well as in his learning. O. On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Yunte Huang wrote: > A Chinese researcher of Am. Lit asked me to find this: a group of poems by > T.S. Eliot were published recently for the first time because Eliot didn't > want them to be seen. Where can I find information about it? The World > Headquarter for Reincarnation?-- Forgive the joke, but someone who knows > please help me. > > Yunte Huang > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Nov 1996 18:56:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Help Eliot The new Eliot bk is called _Inventions of the March Hare: Poems 1909-1917_, edited by Christopher Ricks, as noted, and is scheduled to come out in March by Harcourt Brace. The lady of the porcelain department Smiles at the world through a set of false teeth. She is businesslike and keeps a pencil in her hair ... [from "In the Department Store," from _Inventions_] c. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 11:09:09 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: There's more to life than books, you know ... ... but not much more. (S. Morrissey; threads: 'defensiveness as prop'; 'poe[li]tics') ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 04:21:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: May Day Hi Gary, My understanding is that May Day begins with those events of May 1-4 1886 in Chicago--the strikes for the eight-hour day, the May 3 police killings of six demonstrators at the McCormick agricultural machinery plant, and then on May 4 the Haymarket affair. The day goes international on May 1, 1890, and that's a whole other (connected) story. Rachel Gary Roberts wrote: > > Thanks Rachel for the May Day background. I believe the first labor > celebration was held in Chicago, but could not remember whether it was before > or after the Haymarket affair of 1886. Not surprisingly my desk dictionary > could shed no light on that-- May Day being first a spring ritual and second > a labor holiday "in a number of places"-- the US connection is expunged. > > Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 08:58:45 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: request: bill bissett address anyone have an address, email or smail, for bill bissett? backchannel replies appreciated... luigi au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wheeler Subject: Re: Help Eliot In-Reply-To: "Inventions of the March Hare: Poems 1909-1917" came out in the UK in September (don't know publisher, sorry) and Harcourt Brace will bring it out here in March. Susan Wheeler On Fri, 1 Nov 1996, Yunte Huang wrote: > A Chinese researcher of Am. Lit asked me to find this: a group of poems by > T.S. Eliot were published recently for the first time because Eliot didn't > want them to be seen. Where can I find information about it? The World > Headquarter for Reincarnation?-- Forgive the joke, but someone who knows > please help me. > > Yunte Huang > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 10:22:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: request: bill bissett address anyone have addresses (snail, e, or phone #s) for charles alexander in new mex or ariz, mei-mei berssenbrugge, and leslie marmon silko? bachckannel please!--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 09:35:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: that longish review With reference to Henry Gould's 'a real book review [long, maybe]': that was all very interesting, & some of the subtextual attacks were at least worth thinking about, but I still have no sense of what Jennifer Moxley's _Imagination Verses_ is like, as poetry I mean. Even one short quotation might have helped to back up the many assertions about her particular lyricism as you try to define it, Henry, & I would still appreciate an example, just to get a sense of this writing. All the best Doug Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 'The universe opens. I close. And open, just to surprise you.' - Phyllis Webb ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 15:56:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: that longish review Doug Barbour wrote: >but I still have no sense of what Jennifer >Moxley's _Imagination Verses_ is like, as poetry I mean. Even one >short quotation might have helped from "The Right to Remain Silent" Fear the state that could eat many lives just hanging on the hope of divine punishment. Singing together we know not who we serenade, if not ourselves who are no selves and broken we look to bedtime, elope with big distance in mind. Space is a vicious map erected by the trampling of destiny. If you can only live one life, you must die for those you throw away. The book is, as Henry noted, dedicated "To my Contemporaries" -- I read this first, as, literally & i.e., an act of love & thanks to the poets. Then what else it means. What is amazing about this writing is the clarity with which it claims tradition and it's minute. The tradition it claims & speaks is avant-garde. The avant-garde since Rimbaud, or Sappho, or Shakespeare, or Bernadette Mayer. "Ray of your return, an apparition,/ as out on the couch I/ wept, derivatively." "This in-wrought geneticism/ has made your leniency all askew,/ a melee on the installment plan, like chance encounters with minikin emotions/ unstitch Minerva and the Earth awakes/ distracted reaching for Venus." "Cut it out and give me that rope,/ I will gladly beat my scared Crusoe/ with the possibility of life/ and orate at the seashore/ of luckless sinking blind/ and God-blanched Utopias:/ But know my heart is in your hands." The ear of intent in Oppen placed in the heart of O'Hara. Jennifer challenges us to celebrate this _our_ work & through it a point, place, & people ("in hope of clearing this name from mud"). This name, being Poet, in this now, "lifelike." If you think this extravagent you have not read the book or are not capable. This is not to dismiss those that cannot, but to feel for them. It is the glory not of power but of the protection of a niche-- these poems challenge the poetic community to know _unquestioningly_ it's value & right, to exist, & to speak. "I will say what the register calls forth, the range of the heart/ a journey in the strap of speech. . ." --Rod PS-- Because, from AOL, I have experienced oddities in the transmission of lineation, here is the quotation from "The Right to Remain Silent" which opens this post. "Fear the state/ that could eat many lives/ just hanging/ on the hope of/ divine punishment./ Singing together/ we know not who/ we serenade,/ if not ourselves/ who are no selves/ and broken/ we look to bedtime,/ elope with big/ distance in mind./ Space is a vicious map/ erected by the/ trampling of destiny./ If you can only live/ one life, you must die for those/ you throw away." ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: The Lake Effect Sorry for the long post, but then I don't post that often, so . . . The application of modern scientific principles, especially quantum and chaos theories, to poetics has interested me for quite awhile, so I was anxious to read Paul Lake's AWP article. Well, I just finished it, and I think his misapplications are profound. Lake does get some things right: the idea of emergent phenomena developing from "bottom-up" rules, for example, and the paradox of self-organizing systems (which, I agree, poets and in fact all artists should be aware of--I think, however, that most artists are almost intuitively aware of these orders). And I even agree that "the laws governing the evolution of living and other natural forms are the same laws that govern the creation of poetry." But no, he loses me almost right away, with the Boids computer program. I have a version of Boids running as screensaver. It is an amazing piece of software, related to the various "artificial life" programs. Using simple iterated rules, it generates flocking behavior. But here's where I lose the analogy that Lake's going for: these flocks aren't sonnets. There have different shapes, different patterns every time. A-Life programs like "Boids" are bottom-up, as Lake suggests, but formal poetry, as Lake describes it, is clearly top-down. Look at the quotes from Richard Wilbur: what Wilbur says, and what Lake wants him to have said are quite different. Lake discusses the spontaneous generation of hexagonal patterns in silicon oil as it heats; at first disorganized, it breaks into order at higher temperatures. Wilbur, on the other hand, states "I commit myself to the metrical precedents which my first lines set." If the oil did this, its structure would never emerge. Lake's sense of a "strange attractor" is a top-down Platonic model. Rather seeing these patterns are emergent, he sees them as already existing as "a shadow that hulks toward the page" (Donald Hall). But the basic model, the first model in fact, of a strange attractor is weather. In weather we have a feedback system and basic laws. Purely deterministic, rule-bound, yet unpredictable. The weather on any given day is some position on an attractor, not the attractor itself, which is a mathematical abstraction. Taken as whole, the range of possible positions (possible weathers) forms a strange attractor. Better, I think, to conceive of a poem as existing on a strange attractor, rather than as the strange attractor. Emergent phenomena cannot be "archetypical," as Lake argues they are. Emergent phenomena arise from simple rule sets which are allowed to feed back upon themselves. Curiously, Lake's problem with "free verse" is that it doesn't have enough rules: "with fewer rules and less feedback . . .it generally fails . . . " But look back at the Boids program: it has three rules. Three. And none of them describe the final shape (as the 14 line rule and rhyme patterns are dictated in the sonnet). Lake's example of the Hopkins sonnet is a bit of cheating, I think. The wonderful complexity of sound found in Hopkins is not in any way required for this to be a sonnet. Hopkins is not following any sonnet rule when he composes those sonically dense third and fourth lines: the internal rhyme, for example, which Lake sees (properly, I think) as "self-similarity" isn't required. If it were missing, this'd still be a sonnet (though not, clearly, as interesting of a sonnet). And Lake has to really stretch to get this into iambs. Two other things Lake gets wrong I think: the issue of time, and the idea of a broken symmetry. The latter is simply a misapplied term. "Broken Symmetry" is not "similarity with a difference" (what is "similarity with a difference"? Difference.) Broken symmetry is a term from physics; it refers to attempts to unify the fundamental laws of the universe. At higher and higher energy levels, the fundamental laws can all be described by the same formulae--this is symmetry. So far, all the laws (electromagnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces) can be unified. Gravity is the holdout. Anyway, at high energy levels (temperatures) electromagnetism and the nuclear forces are unified; they are symmetrical. As the energy levels drop, the symmetry is broken, and we need separate equations to calculate. To apply this to poetry, Lake would need a theory of energy-levels in poetic composition. Formal poetry, with its broken symmetries, would be a cooled down version of a more symmetrical form (the archetypical Poem, perhaps?) As for temporality (the four dimensional structure that Lake discusses) I simply can't see how he pegs typography as strictly spatial; how is the "breath unit" 2 dimensional? If one has stopped breathing, perhaps. I agree with him that poetry is performative, yet there is a performative aspect clearly in, for example, Projective Verse. Lake can only miss this by a kind of willful ignorance. Finally, what Lake misses is the human input in his formal examples. In no case is a formal poet simply allowing the bottom-up rules to run, nor is going to rhyming dictionary anything like randomness. The poets choose what patterns to follow up on, which emerging form looks promising. The poet who most clearly exemplifies the chaos principles Lake puts forth is John Cage. In Cage's work we see simple rules, reiteration and feedback, and little or no input from the author. Cage, and others, are much closer to chaos theory than Wilbur or Hall. Yet Lake clearly has no use for artists like Cage, or even WC Williams, who had a similar (I think) view of the artist's relationship to nature: not to copy nature, but to do what nature does (as in Williams' consideration of Shakespeare in Spring and All). Clearly, such a relationship with nature doesn't rule out sonnets, but it certainly doesn't require them. As Baraka said in "How You Sound": "If a poem as got to be a sonnet (unlikely tho) or whatever, it'll certainly let me know." That's a bottom-up approach; how does it differ from Wilbur or Hall or Lake deciding what the form will be? They, it seems, have an idea (ideal form) already in mind. This is where Lake gets away from chaos and goes into mere formalism. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:35:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: All loyalty to the social. I still attach utopianism to the political (and I don't mean, like, Thomas More). The utopian impulse behind politics certainly seems to have expired in the view of some on this list. I specifically mean the impulse of a utopian politics in/through/by poetry. Instead, there's a complacent pragmatism, or else a productive compartmentalism (terms, types, tones), and specifically a monologic dogmatism ("poetry is more dogmatic"), and definitely the uniform reduction of the political in poetry to the crudest terms (poetic and non) that would be rejected (with indifference, even) probably by everyone on this list regardless of issue. (Well, it took a century to begin to get the reactionary reductivism out of Marxism.) Finally, however, there's a pointillist dot of delirial hope evident in Rod's characterisation of Jennifer Moxley's book of poems (though symptomatically it is expressed defensively). My only thought about McCaffery's slogan, "poetry is politics that stays politics," is unformed, and that is that to me it's a form of idealism, which ain't necessarily a bad word (Mouffe goes to Aristotle), so that, if it's "palpably false," then it's "false" and "palpable" like a Hegelian "speculative proposition" is. I know this is cryptic. "Elsewhere is the key word" why Snyder's is not an interesting political *poetry* (except for maybe, Wave). ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 22:27:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: "I recognize a frog by its structure" In-Reply-To: Dean -- I read your excellent post ust after a stroll through my (supersymmetrical) imaginary garden. The one place I disagreed with you was a place where you agreed with Lake. To my reading, perhaps negatively affected by these high altitudes, to speak of the "law" that governs the evolution of life forms as being the same law that governs the creation of poetry requires either that we are speaking of a law so removed, abstract and encompassing as to be nearly meaningless, or to shift the term as we move from one realm to another -- But I'm right with you on all else -- Lake's essay reminds me of past arguments to the effect that English is inherently iambic, or that the heartbeat means that we should be more "natural" in the writing of metered verse -- Chaos theory has been much abused -- rather like those composition texts that appropriate the left/right brain schema -- look for my new textbook -- +Writing on the Inside of the Brain_ just ust? the pleasures of merely formalizing??? In high school we used to rent formals -- good night all ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 08:21:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Literary Culture From Ron S's post about the Booker prize: In 1994 the judges scored another own-goal and gave the laurels to James Kelman's wholly unreadable mixture of Glasgow dialect and foul obscenity, "How Late It Was, How Late," Actually, Kelman is well worth reading, far more so than most other short-listed/winning novelists. I haven't got round to his Booker-winning novel, but I enjoyed "A Disaffection" and "The Bus Conductor Hines". What provoked the torrent of snobbish and ignorant bile he received as a result of his winning the prize was, I think, the fact that his objective-narrator voice is Glaswegian. Having your characters speak in dialect/obscenities is just about acceptable -- pigeonhole as "narrative of low life" -- but having the narrator-voice thus contaminated is not! Anyway, for my money (which I did not place with William Hill) Kelman is funny and erudite and stretches the boundaries of fiction. Meanwhile, as a small press editor I can take heart from those sales figures. Three copies a week for Graham Swift, huh? Maybe Reality Street Editions poets are not doing so badly after all. Ken ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 06:54:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: The Lake Effect Dean Taciuch wrote: > The application of modern scientific principles, especially quantum and > chaos theories, to poetics has interested me for quite awhile, so I was > anxious to read Paul Lake's AWP article. Well, I just finished it, and = I > think his misapplications are profound. Dean: that's an excellent take on Lake's piece -- you should send it to AWP as letter-to-the-editor at least.=20 Gwyn -- slipDean's article on your editor's desk.This whole issue of awp (& its general trend towards the most basically reactionary & uninformed poetics ) needs to be answered. Pierre --=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris | I still know little about poems, but I do know Dept. of English | that suspicion is important. Be sufficiently SUNY Albany | suspicious, suspect the words, the language, Albany NY 12222 | I have often told myself, heighten this=20 tel&fax: (518) 426 043 | suspicion =97 so that someday, soemthing Ne= w email: | can come into being...=20 joris@cnsunix.albany.edu | =20 Ingeborg Bachmann =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 09:57:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: "I recognize a frog by its structure" dean, great critique of lake, and like aldon, i'd like to offer a friendly amendment... let me cut & paste from a quick post i posted to another list member backchannel re lake's piece: >there's an undercurrent that lake misses, and it has to do with the cognitive >level (i >mean, he *must* go there if he wants his argument to work---which is >not to say i >think he *should* make such an argument)... language may do all >sorts of interesting >things of its own account, but human beings fiddling >with letters is just not the same >as natural law permitting for fractal >formation of coastlines... the problem is that lake >is reading alphabetic >surface techniques as indicative of a sort of linguistic deep >structure (on >the one hand), and claiming that this surface must in some way be >congruent >to the surface features of a shoreline (on the other)... this constitutes [as >i >see it] substantial metaphorical slippage, b/c if there's an alignment to >be made >between cognitive structure, language structure, and geological >structure (which i >think there may be---cf. deleuze and guattari's >"geological ethics") this does not mean >that the formal techniques one >employs as a poet need necessarily reflect same... etc... combine this misread of lake's with the formalist hierarchy he introduces, and you've got a rather insidious example of putting quasi-scientific concepts to the service of aesthetic ranking... had lake been more speculative, more tentative, had he tried to feel his way through the question of self-organization and complexity as it applies to language (and poetic) practices, perhaps he might have offered us something of value (sandra braman has done some fascinating work in this regard, in more abstract terms)... instead, he seems to have assumed that one discourse may be used to assign value in another, and proceeded from there to build his 'argument'... anyway, thanx for that!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 09:29:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: that review & Moxley's poetry Thank you, Rod Smith. Plenty there to meditate on, & it does look interesting & engaging. I will reread & think on it. Recalling the reference to a reading by Erin Mour=E9 recently, I would add that other ways of politicizing the lyric mode include hers, in which a passionate anger explodes into canny articulation, often in poems about that 'ideal' lyric subject, love. There are many sublte ways to 'theorize' inside the poem; it seems Moxley is doing so through a carefully contrived simplicity; that's interesting. I can see that now I can read some of the poems. Thanks again for taking the time to type them in. All the best Doug Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 'The universe opens. I close. And open, just to surprise you.' - Phyllis Webb ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 10:34:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: "I recognize a frog by its structure" hey, that excerpt of mine in my last post was a sonnet, no?... mebbe i'll add just one more thought here, based on a loosely-knit piece i published four years ago (on sci-lit, hypertext, tech. writing etc): the idea that science "becomes the best source, method, and authority for determining the ultimate critera of moral values and those ultimate ethical axioms and guidelines to live and govern by" (113) has been put forward by no less than nobel-laureate split-brain researcher roger w. sperry, in his book _science and moral priority: merging mind, brain, and human values_ (columbia up, 1983)... as i see it, it's no accident that the guy who gave us the idea that "consciousness is causal," with "emergent" neural process and the like (which speaks to issues of top-down and bottoms-up at the neural level) might also have articulated his social platform in just such terms... what's happened here is that our social realities are explained, justified and de/politicized through access to cognitive structure (as this latter is presumed to speak to mind)... it's only a small next step to ranking aesthetic value accordingly... as i observed four years ago, we thus have one answer to frank zappa's and the mothers' "who are the brain police?"... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:30:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: Mor(e).on.mla (fwd) This was sent to the listowner address by mistake... jk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:42:01 -0500 (EST) From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU To: Poetics List Subject: Mor(e).on.mla Alan Golding Prof. of English, Univ. of Louisville 502-852-6801; acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Poetix-ers Bob Perelman and myself are speaking on a panel called "Poetry in the Curriculum" (favorite topic of some of our non-academic listmates, I know) at MLA, Sat. 12/28 at 3:30. Bob's talking about teaching Olson and Rich (I think), and I'm talking about him--you can't tell 'cause the full title's not listed in the program, but it's "Language Writing, Theory, and the Institutions of Poetry: The Example of Bob Perelman." Anyone at "Assembling Alternatives" heard an early version of it there. For my sins, I'm also speaking on an Olson panel, Mon. 12/30, 10:15, symbolically numbered 666 in the program. I'm to talk about "Olson and Language Writing. " This seemed like a real good idea at the time I committed to do it, and it's one of those things (most of us probably have them) that I always felt like I'd have to write on some day--the complex and conflicted relationships between the poet who's meant about as much to me as any poet I've read and later writers who also have meant and do mean a lot to me. So, not surprisingly, I now feel like I have nothing to say. Or at least I want to go beyond rehashing all the "I Hate Speech" stuff to address other aspects of what Ron Silliman so nicely calls this "break within a tradition in the name of its own higher values." I'd love to hear what any of you have to say on Olson and LP if you feel inclined. Ideas for references, etc. (Someone else is "doing" Olson & Howe) Perelman on Olson, Golding on Perelman, Golding on Olson . . . "This conference isn't incestuous! It's just carefully structured! Sophisticatedly self-referential!" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:57:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Re: The Lake Effect > The poet who most clearly exemplifies the chaos principles Lake >puts forth is John Cage. In Cage's work we see simple rules, reiteration >and feedback, and little or no input from the author. I'm also in agreement with Dean on most of his points but the above isn't quite accurate. In most of Cage's texts using chance operations there is also a great deal of choice. Marjorie Perloff discusses this in some detail relative to "Writing for the Second Time Through _Finnegan's Wake_" in _Postmodern Genres_. Retallack discusses this with Cage in _MUSICAGE_. & it also comes up in _I-VI_. As Perloff notes in her article: "Commentary on Cage is usually so preoccupied with his use of self-imposed rules and chance operations that it slights the role the poet-composer's extraordinary art plays." Not that Dean is 'slighting' Cage, his concern is with chaos theory not explication of Cage. Nevertheless I thought I'd make my point relative to Cage's process. Also it is of note that Mac Low has come to prefer the term "nonintentional prcedures" over "chance operations," because that term, for him, "includes a wider variety of compositional methods, many of which, strictly speaking, do not involve 'chance,' though some do." See Aerial 8 interview with Watten. My Dictionary of Literary Biography article on Cage (forthcoming) ends thus: "In his late writings he is no longer interested in "nonsense" nor in "sense" in any conventional understanding of those terms. Rather he has achieved a poetry which mimics the process of meaning creation in that while the form (as of any language) is already constituted the possibilities for almost infinite recombination are such that the ideas already exist-- it is the poets task not to have them but to find them, already extant, in the material of language. As he wrote in _Composition in Retrospect_: "the past must be Invented/ the future Must be/ revIsed / doing boTh/ mAkes/ whaT/ the present Is/ discOvery/ Never stops" Dean's piece, & some of Retallack's articles, come close to discussing chaos theory, nonlinear dynamics, etc. relative to poetry in a concrete manner, but it seems still, to me, that no one has escaped the metaphorical (or possibly ever will) in this discussion. It seems we need a better understanding of what language is & how it works before these connections can be made beyond an essentially intuitive level (not to dismiss the intuitive, hey I am a poet over here huh). Maybe the tools for such convincing connections are there in linguistics, I don't know. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: welcome message Rev. 9-28-96 ____________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo ____________________________________________________________________ http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ____________________________________________________________________ _______Contents___________ 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Who's Subscribed 4. Digest Option 5. When you'll be away 6. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 7. Poetics Archives at EPC 8. Publishers & Editors Read This! 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Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ____________________________________________________________________ END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 12:43:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: The Lake Effect i think the point rod makes re the metaphorical is important: to do the sort of work lake is attempting, but to do it [dare i say] better, what needs to happen is that the arts side of things has got to be shown as participating conceptually (and linguistically) in those broader cultural-social movements in which the science, too, participates (this latter, of course, in mathematical terms as well)... which means that one needs to be able to situate the sciences not as primary, but as correlative to the arts in this regard... and to do so wrt chaos theory is not an easy matter, not least b/c we're so close to it... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 05:43:54 -0500 Reply-To: knimmo@ic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kurt Nimmo Organization: WEB STYLE Subject: PNG POET SERIES: LYN LIFSHIN Comments: To: aimee & leslie , Al Berlinski , Anthony Boyd , Argus , "b.kunde" , Beau Blue , Bill Abbott , "charles f. roethel" <102703.3426@CompuServe.COM>, Cheryl Townsend , Christy Sanford , Craig Nelson , Damon Sauve , David Hunter Sutherland <3468441@mcimail.com>, David Nicholson , Dean Creighton , Debbi Elkind , deborah kilgore , Diane Marie Ward , Don Sielaff , Douglas Mumm , dwain kitchel , Ellie Kuykendall , Eric Goldsworthy , "eris@xwinds.com" , Francis Spencer , Frank Moore , "FREDRICS@utxvms.cc.utexas.edu" , gar , God's Bar & Grill News/Reviews , "Hans_Ebner@NOTES.YMP.GOV" , Heather , Holly Anne Holden , Howard Jonathan Fredrics , Janet Bernichon , janet kuypers , Jay Alamares , jay marvin , Jeff Van Oflen , Jim Watson-Gove <102552.1253@CompuServe.COM>, John Labovitz , Kathy Turek , "KellyJune@aol.com" , Kendrick Vargas , Kevin Mittelstadt , "kg@pacificnet.net" , "knimmo@ic.net" , kristi sprinkle , Larry Oberc x5157 , LeeAnn Heringer , Levi Asher , Marc Sabb , Marc Sabb , Marcus Williamson <71333.1665@CompuServe.COM>, Michael Estabrook , Michael Hemmingson , Michael McNeilley , Mischa Reinhardt , "Ms. Peg Shea" , Neil Conway , Ray Heinrich , "rich@mightymedia.com" , Richard Soos , Robb Allan , Robert Drake , Robert Howington , Robert Luttrell , Roy Blumenthal , "Tim W. Brown" , Viril Hervey , Vittorio Curtoni , Zero Tolerance PNG POETRY ONLINE Announces the release of the PNG POET SERIES. RELEASE ONE: Eight Poems by *LYN LIFSHIN* http://www.cruzio.com/~png/lifshin.htm The Series is currently open for submissions. Contact: Kurt Nimmo, knimmo@ic.net for more info on PNG POETRY ONLINE visit the web site at: http://www.cruzio.com/~png -- =================================================== Kurt Nimmo - knimmo@ic.net PNG POETRY ONLINE: http://www.cruzio.com/~png =================================================== ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 15:18:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Help Eliot >A Chinese researcher of Am. Lit asked me to find this: a group of poems by >T.S. Eliot were published recently for the first time because Eliot didn't >want them to be seen. Where can I find information about it? The World >Headquarter for Reincarnation?-- Forgive the joke, but someone who knows >please help me. > >Yunte Huang I read an article about the poems in several newspapers a couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago. Even the International Herald tribune had a good-sized article. In all likelihood a story also appeared in things such as _Time_ anmd _Newsweek_ and _Maclean's_. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 00:50:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: Lake effects Plenty to think about in the responses to Lake's article-- Aldon Nielsen wrote: >To my reading, perhaps negatively affected by these high altitudes, to >speak of >the "law" that governs the evolution of life forms as being the >same law that >governs the creation of poetry requires either that we are >speaking of a law so >removed, abstract and encompassing as to be nearly meaningless, or to >shift the >term as we move from one realm to another -- And I agree. "Law" is the wrong word here. Method, perhaps. Model. Paradigm, even, if that word were not so devalued at present. Anyway, if one sees consciousness as an emergent phenomenon and language as an emergent phenomenon, is poetry, then, not included in this? Rod, thanks for the correction on Cage. The material you posted from your entry in the Dictionary of Literary Biography is close, I think, to my point. A method that "mimics the process of meaning creation" is one which, I think, does what nature does. Not that nature makes meaning--we do that, or rather conscious awareness does that. And consciousness is one of those processes which may be described as "emergent." I'm following Roger Penrose on this--his idea that consciousness emerges at an interface between classical and quantum mechanics in the nervous system is very controversial, but it draws on psychology, biology, physics, chemistry, philosophy--and this is where Joe Amato's point comes in--why not the arts? Joe's point about "metaphorical slippage" and the error of simply reading surface features is something to be well aware of-- One of my interests is quantum physics--not the mathematics of probablity, but the philosophical and conceptual problems it gives rise to. These issues are related to chaos, certainly, but are they merely metaphorical when applied to writing, or to any of the arts? I mean, if these processes (nonlinear and even quantum, if one agrees with Penrose) can literally (not metaphorically) give rise to consciousness, then that allows any field which makes claims as to the nature of awareness, cognitive experience, meaning, etc. access to these theories in their full sense, not as metaphor. This would, I think, allow poetics as it allows philosophy to make use of these models. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:00:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: Lake effects In-Reply-To: Just a minor point - the models, etc. of quantum mechanics are interpene- trated by the mathematics, articulated by the mathematics. That's where the problem comes in; I'd say to some extent that if you're not interested in the mathematics of qm, you're not interested in qm, and your "take" becomes an issue of slippage. Just as mathematics are extrapolated from concepts, concepts are extrapolated from mathematics. What does it mean _exactly_ to _apply_ qm to literary texts? And without testability, is- sues of parameterization, verification, etc., all that can be accomplished is another dose of metaphor and a further division, ironically, between the so-called two-cultures looking out, looking in. Alan _______________________________________________________________ http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:46:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Lake Affect Country In-Reply-To: <199611031557.JAA13697@charlie.cns.iit.edu> Was I the only reader of _AWP_ who thought for the briefest moment that they too, like _Social Text_, had been hoaxed?? Has anyone actually met Lake? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 22:51:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Olson and LP In-Reply-To: The one LP by Olson I've heard was most interesting, full of harruummphs and mumblings,,, and some great poetry -- It wasn't exactly speech -- it was a groove -- has anybody rereleased that stuff on CD yet? anyway, Alan, I'll see you in DC & will attend at least one of your panels -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 01:58:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: Lake effects Just a quick one here--its not that the mathematics don't interest me, its that they're beyond my mathmatical abilities. I agree that the concepts arise from the math, but these concepts have philosophical implications that go beyond the mathematics--as biology goes beyond chemistry, as film (or photography) goes beyond optics. The issue of testability takes us back to the question of what does an experimental poet do, doesn't it? Dean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 02:58:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: Lake effects In-Reply-To: And a quick one in return (I can't sleep again) - the problem for me has always been that the implications are drawn from the concepts, but the concepts are "leaky" in relation to the mathematics; by the time one gets to the humanities, the implications are, in a sense, broken. I don't think the last analogy is correct, but biology in fact doesn't go beyond chem- istry; without a thorough knowledge of the latter (molecular biology, etc.), biology returns with elan vital and other life-force concepts. As for experimental writing - I don't think this is testable; one thing that's fascinating about cultural productions is their lack of reproducible verification procedures - Alan On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Dean Taciuch wrote: > Just a quick one here--its not that the mathematics don't interest me, its > that they're beyond my mathmatical abilities. I agree that the concepts > arise from the math, but these concepts have philosophical implications > that go beyond the mathematics--as biology goes beyond chemistry, as film > (or photography) goes beyond optics. > > The issue of testability takes us back to the question of what does an > experimental poet do, doesn't it? > > Dean > _______________________________________________________________ http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:39:20 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: 9448721P@ARTS.GLA.AC.UK Organization: Glasgow University Subject: Re: Literary Culture As a new subscriber, someone born, brought up in Glasgow and still living here, it was a little dismaying to read the quote from Ron S. on Kelman in Ken Edwards` sensitive response. In "James Kelman`s wholly unreadable mixture of Glasgow dialect and foul obscenity", "wholly unreadable" is clearly not meant as an apologetic admission of difficulty when confronted with an unfamiliar idiolect; it`s inhospitable, a contemptuous dismissal. The complaint of "foul obscenity" needs further explanation from Ron S before I address it. Kelman`s every interview for the last five years at least have been spent explaining why "there`s no such thing as `bad language` - just language badly used". I agree with the Glasgow poet Tom Leonard who has spent a career arguing that your voice is as good as anyone else`s, no matter where you come from (it looks like this is what Glasgow writers are condemned to do). Robin Purves ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:19:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: The Lake Effect In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 2 Nov 1996 17:41:04 -0500 from Thanks, Dean T. for illuminating comments. But doesn't the term "broken symmetry" actually have a broader application than you make out? I could be wrong. But I thought it referred more generally to forms close to symmetry that are somehow skewed a little. I've read it (I think!) in works on math, not just theoretical physics. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 08:35:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: All loyalty to the social. In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 2 Nov 1996 21:35:28 -0500 from I think you're on the right track, Louis, but I don't think "complacency" necessarily attaches to pragmatism, & a lot of the "defensiveness' on this subject comes out of an awareness that utopianism in poetry can mean a complacent, aestheticized idealism, which, despite good radical style, is disengaged from politics. What is utopianism in real life? For me, Whitman is it. Making a poetics out of "presence". The poet backs up his/her words with being there. (not just elsewhere, eating sky-pie). - H. Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 09:14:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Lake effects alan is right about the mathematical---it does present a key slippage point, as it were... and it makes any cross-disciplinary analysis difficult... i *do* want to be sure, though, to indicate that mathematics is often put to the service of faltering paradigms and concepts (perhaps "faltering" is not quite right here---i'm not entirely certain we're continually progressing in our refinements)... it's clear that terminology has played a fundamental role right along in the sciences, both theoretically and in their articulation... a good example would be eighteenth century chemistry... which, again, is why i say that chaos is so difficult in this regard---we're so close to it that it's difficult to see 'it' for what it is, and to pull it apart in ways that might reveal the more tacit assumptions structuring its logic (and its math)... the other complication is that the mathematics that supports it is not a simple extension of newton's principia, with which many of us may by now be familiar... i'm not talking about the easy examples that scientists offer by way of non-linear equations and the like, in order to talk to a lay public... i'm talking about the actual math that's employed by folks like prigogine... i've heard prigogine lecture to a group of physicists as well as to the general public... and in the former, the key difference was that he was challenged by the physicists at the mathematical level---and in fact he answered to each objection on the blackboard, while at the same time saying to the effect that 'he generally had his mathematicians do such work for him'... the math he used---and i was with a physicist friend---was itself extremely difficult, and silenced all objections... one reason why i hold prigogine in high regard---even if, like most scientists, he *does* presume to be describing 'reality' more accurately than his predecessors---is b/c he can shift back and forth from the math., to the concepts, in fact to the history (i also heard him on one occasion reach way back to newton's original articulation, to correct an interrogator who had challenged his remarks re newton)... anyway, yeah---i've done some work in this regard mself (wrt energy per se) and it's clear to me that useful insights and correspondences may be developed in the absence of the math... but it's really quite difficult, and if you happen to incorporate the math, this will likely be one of the first things that gets chopped for editorial purposes (and b/c of audience)... for those of you who are interested, the society for literature and science (sls) regularly discusses such stuff (and has an annual conference)... joe conte (who's out there someplace i think) and i were on a panel there a few years back... on a related note: i think brian rotman's work on the semiotics of math. may be useful here (can't recall any titles at the moment, sorry)... as to aldon's sense of sokal-ness: hey, i like that!... but i really do think lake is serious as hell... but hey man---what REALLY bugs me is that you've got the title of my most recent poetic project, "lake affect," in your subject line... which in fact does touch on self-organization and the like, while slipping & sliding along that great lakes frontier that conditioned my own childhood self... boohoo/// best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 10:45:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "DEAN F. TACIUCH" Subject: Re: Lake effects Alan: Yes, I see what you mean--without some grounding in hard science or mathematics, this becomes a kind of mysticism, and that's not what I'm after. To use the example of biology again, it doesn't leave chemistry behind, it builds on it. And studies of consciousness build on biology (neurology). I'd say these fields do in fact, go beyond the premises of the the sciences from which they've arisen. But yes, the hard stuff has got to be there. The problem I see, and the one I think you're addressing, is the mythologizing of whatever science is being touted as "the model." The working of mind, for example, was once (turn of the century?) thought of as analogous to a telegraph system, then to a computer, then to parallel computing (neural networks and the like), now quantum effects and chaos. That's not to say that these latter concepts aren't useful (I think they are, and as more than metaphor--even as metaphor they're useful). But will Lake's ideas (and my counter) seem as silly in the coming decades as little telegraph wires in our heads seem to us now? Probably. But that shouldn't prevent us from developing these models, using them to see what they reveal about awareness, cognition, language, meaning. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:08:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: Literary Culture At 11:39 AM 11/4/96 GMT, Robin Purves wrote: >As a new subscriber, someone born, brought up in Glasgow and still >living here, it was a little dismaying to read the quote from Ron S. >on Kelman in Ken Edwards` sensitive response. In "James Kelman`s >wholly unreadable mixture of Glasgow dialect and foul obscenity" Dear Robin Purves, Welcome to the list! But please note!! Ron had sent to the list an article he characterized as "lurid" from what he called "The Wall Street Urinal". Ken appears to have miscontrued this. This truly foul article was by Paul Levy. I thank Ron for passing it on. The source of the quoted article is: LEISURE & ARTS: Books, Booker, Bookies Paul Levy Copyright 1996 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. CITATION The Wall Street Journal, October 30, 1996 DATELINE London TEXT Something is seriously wrong with the Booker prize. *** This might be a good place to note that my essay "Poetics of Americas" -- which deals with the relation of dialect to ideolect as both opposing standard Englishes (and in the course mentions Tom Leonard's great work and also MacDiarmid) has just appeared in Modernism/modernity (3:3, Sept. 1996). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:27:03 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Purves <9448721P@ARTS.GLA.AC.UK> Organization: Glasgow University Subject: Re: Literary Culture So much for my maiden speech! I apologise to Ron. I remember thinking that the quote was bizarrely out of character - should have held my peace `til Ken`s little error was spotted. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 16:32:26 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robin Purves <9448721P@ARTS.GLA.AC.UK> Organization: Glasgow University Subject: Re: Literary Culture And, having reread Ken Edwards` post, I ought to apologise to him. Having started to subscribe last friday afternoon, I didn`t read Ron`s original post - so lacked the necessary contextualisation to make sense of Ken`s response. Neither Ken nor Ron were in error. Robin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:34:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: HeHe God There 1.01 HeHe God There "He wanders, like a day-appearing dream, Through the dim wildernesses of the mind; Through desert woods and tracts, which seem Like ocean, homeless, boundless, unconfined." (Shelley) "He ponders, nothing is as chasms seem, Enmeshed in limbs that phantoms leave behind; Across the rood screen hacked from dimly dreamed Motions, roaming, hounded, lost, and lined." (Jennifer-the-last-word) "God thunders, ruthless, come in handsome beamed Starlight intimations, gone, defined; A throne screams, cracked, its wooden roil reamed By potions, homing, tossed, and realigned." (Alan-run-Jennifer) "There is a voice, not understood by all, Sent from these desert-caves. It is the roar Of the rent ice-cliff which the sunbeams call, Plunging into the vale - it is the blast Descending on the pines - the torrents pour. ..." (Shelley) ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:03:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Literary Culture In message <12A864F14F6@arts.gla.ac.uk> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > So much for my maiden speech! > > I apologise to Ron. I remember thinking that the quote was bizarrely > out of character - should have held my peace `til Ken`s little error > was spotted. > > Robin just to reassure you robin: one of the charms of this list (for me) is that people are always putting their feet in their mouths etc and apologizing and having fights and misunderstandings and making up so congratulations for coming out swinging, as it were.--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 12:07:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Literary Culture is a Beautiful Thing just saw a mostly sweet brit movie, Beautiful Thing, and one of the ways the dis/similarities btw sensitive gay teenage boy and toughbroad mother w/ heart of gold was characterized was --see, they're both smart, but he knows who monet is and she, well, she "won a year's worth of toilet freshener with that little poem i made up." a great line on the everyday uses of poetry.-md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:58:57 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: (Fowarded) AWOL: Wee Girls: Women Writing from an Irish Perspective. Spinifex Press >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:53:59 +1000 >To: awol@ozemail.com.au >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL: Wee Girls: Women Writing from an Irish Perspective. Spinifex Press > >The following information has been posted by AWOL on behalf of Spinifex >Press. Please address all enquiries to Spinifex Press. > >******************************************************* > >Wee Girls: Women Writing from an Irish Perspective >edited by Lizz Murphy >Spinifex Press ISBN 1-875559-51-5 $19.95 pb > >Whether Irish or of Irish descent, whether living in >Ireland or part of it's diaspora, writing means trying >to balance ancient history, myth and legend, with the >fragility and tenuousness of contemporary society. It >means the willingness to laugh at every opportunity >alongside a constant lamentation, a keening in the >bones. And always trying to make sense of 'The Irish >in Me'. A marvellously evocative collection of fiction, >poetry and autobiography to reach in and touch the heart. > > >Contact Spinifex Press >PO Box 212 >North Melbourne >Vic 5051 >Australia > >Tel +61 3 9329 6088 >Fax +61 3 9329 9238 >email spinifex@publishaust.net.au >http://www.publishaust.net.au/~spinifex > > > > > >************************************************** > > > > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > > > > Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:10:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Southlands readings In-Reply-To: <327e30da3c07264@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Hello all: I find myself in charge of readings and speakers for the English Department here at Forida Atlantic U (Boca Raton). If any of you out there are planning on being in the south Florida area (Boca Raton is about 45 minutes north of Miami) and would like to set up a reading (or, if you're an academic type, a lecture) please get in touch with me. Our schedule's pretty open right now, though as with every academic venue not much happens over holidays. Mark Scroggins mscroggi@acc.fau.edu 407.691.3311 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 19:24:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: reading report Fall Cafe & Ear Inn lee ann brown and lisa jarnot reading poetry at the fall cafe on sunday november 3 in brooklyn ny presented us with a good recipe to revolve. lisa read a fire poem and lee ann sang about the susan smith babies. in lisa's fire poem was a line about two kids in buffalo mixing gasoline and styrofoam to make napalm which they launched from a sling shot and aimed at cars. anselm's friends work at the fall cafe and are from buffalo and are behind the bar and know the two kids. anselm's friends ask lisa if she lived on the circle street. lisa is from buffalo. prageeta sharma videotapes the reading for channel 13. after the reading we sit at a table with meg arthurs harris schiff drew gardner juliana spahr anselm berrigan lewis warsh and lee ann and lisa. i want to know how the napalm worked with the slingshot and so does drew. harris says napalm thoughts. drew starts wondering how to think napalm thoughts with slingshots. harris looks annoyed. we learn leslie scalopino is starting a reading series at Barnes & Nobel in union square new york city and there are a few questions. meg says she hates Starbucks. the questions center around what to do about Barnes & Noble. napalm thoughts i repeat and am grateful for harris. harris lee ann anselm and meg go to prageeta's for pourri. juliana drew & i go to my place and listen to nick drake and talk about gibson, dick, romance novels and westerns. drew has heard of the talking backwards linguist analyzer who has a theory that snippets of things played backwards reveal what you really mean. the backwards linguist has played OJ's tapes and he hears I killed my wife. i want to grant that much to the unconscious i say if you played douglass backwards it would come up madonna songs. i believe in the power of love. juliana talks about a scholarly book on romance novels and their readers. The thesis is that romance novels are radical because they give care. marlene comes over we and go to monte's venetian room and later to the brooklyn inn for tequila. i get barded. lee ann likes games the night before and insists we play bingo at her place. we play bingo at her place. anselm wins and we say All Are Punished. Punish Ed like the prince says in romeo and julliet. we're bored with bingo but love the new movie. drugs are quick. the bingo game lee ann wants to use for a poem because she has a reading tomorrow and uses her friends to generate. we decide to add the numbers together and start each line with the ordinator (either B, I, N, G, or O). eg getting O-69 would require you to come up with a 15 word line beginning with the letter O. other people get the same number so there are alterations between juliana and marlene, steve carll and katy lederer, lee ann and everyone except anselm who won't play & i have to write it all down. marlene gets bingo and juliana closes it out because she doubled. lee ann has already read this poem at the fall. the title comes from a picture of lee ann in the bushes. it's not a very good poem but we like each other. Lee Ann Sneaking up On Eros I love you I hate you In the house of eros the scribes drink tequila alot I cannot believe in forced contemplation yes no both c'mon Nor and forced wasting Nor in enforced wastelands Nor in the compound Going on & on forever In pursuit the scribes take up their pens & weep lavishly In pursuit the scribes downsize downturn dumb up the table Inextinguishable from eating Because people often ask what you are doing Bob would always ask his family what they were Berated because of their golden campina diesel car truck Needing under the table the scuba quality Of all instances in feminine literature abjection occupies extravagance but humility receives blows and thrashing Of generosity we tolerate no space relations or time benefits therefore love thy relation Go when you take my filbert filial bly like forward rpm butte tagalog brand Jill crossed mighty peaks Good is the way it boiled vociferously gone are the days when it carried issues of blood and bulls bore me Behold! bulls bore me under wing In separate mounds mighty telegraph hounds mighty broken truculence Never on deep space nine are brothers golden eared Not feared it completely as such be home largely Nor just go for just end again again again Or end end end it now or move Go flesh & rise go limbs & sail on clouds of your bones Anselm has to do the free spot Bloody lepers taste good said love's lost shepherd herding around 5 is a manageable number Never said we nicely the pens revolted & kissed the bone's thigh O young trilliums meaning yellow bird sycamore beauty trounced by stalagmitic teeth Bamboo aphasia memory stalks murders memory lovingly biting But it is this time & this memory that wants Nightwood into the zone of our catastrophe, nora "If you're such a fan of mine you'd know" I drink american spirits despite slave ownership absinthe fairies guarded O my god telling rituals of worship gone really bad O return to ideas of eros & embark upon cutting marlene announces that juliana's new sun & moon book is out. marlene was not supposed to tell and midwest juliana pretends to look modest & annoyed. lee ann has a few questions. juliana says o, mine should have come out after yours. juliana gives lee ann the new chain. everyone laughs at gary sullivan's drawings on the spd catalog. we go into lee ann's apt after a car crash on the street. lee ann buys the bingo game for around 4 dollars. we buy tequila & wine at the liquor store and lee ann sees the bingo game on the street. we say good bye to scott bentley. juliana says i liked your poims. We walk from brother's barbecue around which we sat at a table where were steve lee ann and anselm and katy and scott and juliana. we look at scott's poims and i change sakes to snakes in castaways because he is always making red marks on mine. CASTAWAYS -for Jennifer, a Valentine If you woke one morning to find the body sleeping next to you a shame, a shindig of party favors, a polyester cocktail on your fine suit; if I lived a thousand years, happily ever after never having had you to do all over again; if you'd been the Skipper, I'd be your Marianne or Ginger, of course, this clearly being a case of mistaken indemnity, neither of us meant anything much to the other by it, so we saidx and yet, I would have liked to rescue you from all that network variety, navigating the orange and pink Day-glo which Providence channels, tossing off covers up such transgressions you searched the lagoon, the dawning on land sakes, alive. steve gives his books to scott, the new one from Logo deadalus and the loops. I get up from the table to smoke and look at the penn state game at the bar where it snows. i conclude sherry is watching the game. a guy at the bar says it's hard to get out of state college after a big game where people tailgate starting thursday morning and he knows someone who can get him seats when it snows it's in a valley and they don't get the roads plowed until monday. he would like to get out of the game with his '49 studebaker army canvas back truck i must have seen it around town because he parks it on crosby because he lives on crosby crosby goes one way north do you know crosby? a taxi one day was backing up on crosby forty miles an hour and smacked into his army truck gets 1 mile per gallon straight six pistons this big and almost kills the two germans in the back. he files a claim with the taxi's insurance and finds out there are 900,000 outstanding claims ahead of his. he says i'm calling the post and i have friends at the post. 2 hours later the ceo calls and settles the claim and throws in a bone and says don't go to the papers. army truck man accepts the bone and claims that all taxi drivers in new york city pay $1.46 per day to be insured by this one company. We are walking to brothers from the ear and katy is very cold because she misses san francisco. We say good bye to beth borrus and brenda coultas and marcella x. Beth had read poems from her fast talking divorce book. It's got a blurb from fanny howe on the back. She gets out her guitar and sings to us. We are lee ann, lisa, juliana, scott, marcella, brenda, anselm, steve and some other folks whose names i don't know. She ends with the song about being stupid. Smoking cigarettes, it's stupid. Having unsafe sex, it's stupid but we do it. Showing up uninvited, it's stupid. Falling in love unrequited, it's stupid but we do it anyway. Everyday I try to do something stupid. Everyday there's nothing to it but I do it anyway. Drinking beer in the car, it's stupid. Wishing on the first star, it's stupid but we do it. Picking up strange men, it's stupid. Again and again, it's stupid but we do it anyway. Everyday I try to do something stupid. Everyday there's nothing to it but I do it anyway. Talking hours long distance phone, it's stupid. Walking at night alone, it's stupid but we do it. Driving drunk, it's stupid. Smoking skunk makes us stupid so we do it everyday. Everyday I try to do something stupid. Everyday there's nothing to it but I do it anyway. i introduce beth. While she now lives in elizabeth, beth borrus is a bougainvillea flowing over a wooden deck in the backyard of her california. Scott reads occasional poems and Under the Boom of Amazement and it's very good. he sits up on the table and his poems are pop rocks in my mouth. This line made a whole pack go off: While sinagua iguana says igneous crustacean was lawless to answer and the Paiute word is Richter. i introduce scott as a jacaranda pod. i met beth and scott in san diego. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 18:33:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Southlands readings mark, do you know amitava kumar at english- u florida gainesville? he usually has a lot to say, and says it very charmingly.--md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Hello all: > > I find myself in charge of readings and speakers for the English > Department here at Forida Atlantic U (Boca Raton). If any of you out > there are planning on being in the south Florida area (Boca Raton is > about 45 minutes north of Miami) and would like to set up a reading (or, > if you're an academic type, a lecture) please get in touch with me. Our > schedule's pretty open right now, though as with every academic venue not > much happens over holidays. > > Mark Scroggins > > mscroggi@acc.fau.edu > 407.691.3311 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 17:14:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: Gary Snyder Reading (NYC) In-Reply-To: if snyder is reading from _mountains and rivers without end_, i highly reccomend. saw him read from this last spring at the u of nevada, reno, and while it is a long-ish reading/performance, it is quite worth it. snyder seems more at home w/ this epic piece than he has for many yrs w/ other works. it was a delightful evening, with a delightful person/poet, who is, it seems, delighted indeed with this poem. best, shaunanne tangney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:33:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: UbuWeb Visual & Concrete Poetry Site Open Comments: To: editor@ubuweb.com Announcing the largest Visual & Concrete Poetry site on the Web: ********************************************** UbuWeb Visual & Concrete Poetry http://www.ubuweb.com/vp ********************************************** Contents: Historical Guillaume Apollinaire Carlo Belloli Max Bense Wallace Berman Jean Francois Bory Claus Bremer Jose Caceres John Cage Julio Campal Henri Chopin Augusto de Campos Haroldo de Campos Paul de Vree Ian Hamilton Finlay Carl Fernbach Flarsheim John Furnival Heinz Gappmayr Eugen Gomringer Mathais Goeritz Corrado Govoni Vaclav Havel Dom Sylvester Houedard Ronald Johnson Jiri Kolar Ferdinard Kriwet Armando Mazza Franz Mon b.p. Nichol Decio Pignatari Aram Saroyan Kurt Schwitters Gino Severini Mary Ellen Solt Vagn Steen Salette Tavares Arrigo Lora Totino Ivo Vroom Emmett Williams Pedro Xisto Louis Zukofsky Contemporary Connie Beckley Susan Bee Charles Bernstein John Cayley Cheryl Donegan Johanna Drucker Loss Pequen~o Glazier Kenneth Goldsmith Dick Higgins Joan La Barbara Bill Luoma Poem by Nari Janan Platt Blair Seagram Spencer Selby Ward Tietz Nico Vassilakis Jody Zellen Komninos Zervos Janet Zweig Found / Insane Visual Poetry The Free Jack Ads Series The Orion Series Assorted Found / Insane Poetry: "What an asshole you are" "Do not break the chain" "Lost Dog" "Dustone" "FireSounds Awful" "We are a hip pharmacy" "Vote here" "A List" "Madness" "Mindless self indulgence needs a fucking drummer" "Want to try something new?" "Office Ramirez" "Pataki and Pat for 4th Reich" "Poem For All" "Dear Santa" "Survival Fight vs. Lazy Primitives" -->Avant-links galore pointing to Poetry, Visuals, and Sound sites. (formerly Kenny G's Visual & Concrete Poetry Page) ********************************************** UbuWeb Visual & Concrete Poetry http://www.ubuweb.com/vp ********************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:52:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: request: bill bissett address Comments: To: Robert Drake In-Reply-To: <199611021358.IAA19203@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> hello robert, i think i'm kinda late with billbissett's address(but if you still need, let me know) i witnessed bill read only a few days ago here in londonOnt. he used to be the writer in res. here(before my time) well... he rocked. i know jordan davis frequently reports of bigapple blow outs. but this is londonOnt(where i haven't heard bowering for a few years) the man (billbissett) read for 1ne hour and 3rty minutes. it was for a launch of a local journal called London After Midnight. we got him cheap and he left the crowd of 5ty swirling. raging and excellent, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:32:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: constabulary notes from all over well, it isn't Minnesota, I guess, but it's still giving away the farm. one earlier story noted that one department head (dean?) welcomed the plan because now he could, for example, tell a particular faculty member: "the department is moving in x direction intellectually; so I'd 'like' you to stop doing y research and start doing research of an x-ish nature." is it peculiar to Arizona that the Faculty Senates sauntered so gaily up to the chopping block? any opinions as to whether said faculty senates, as well as the Board of Regents, might reasonably be sued by offended faculty members? I do find it remarkable that "shortcomings" in ANY ONE of the three areas might be grounds for dismissal: teaching fine? publishing fine? well your service is a real problem, fella.... the net seems wide enough that, while I doubt few will be fired in the foreseeable future, department heads and deans and those up the ladder sure have a vise handy for squeezing any trouble makers.... it's got to have a seriously chilling effect on political debates in the university, if not (perhaps?) on research agendas. what do far-flung Poetics folks think? looming on your own immediate horizon? or just another weird story from the land of weird stories (the folks, say, who brought you Evan Mecham....) Tenney >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:00:38 -0700 >From: Tenney J Nathanson >X-within-URL: http://wildcat.arizona.edu/~wildcat/papers/90/53/01_1_m.html >To: nathanso@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu >Subject: 01_1_m.html >X-Status: > > > Board of Regents hears ideas on post-tenure review > > By Trigie Ealey > Arizona Daily Wildcat November 4, 1996 > > CAPTION: Karen C. Tully > Arizona Daily Wildcat > > Student Regent Jonathan Schmitt discusses post-tenure reviews at the > Arizona Board of Regents meeting Friday morning. The meeting took > place at ASU's Memorial Student Union. > [] > > The Arizona Board of Regents, meeting Friday on the campus of > Arizona State University, discussed the post-tenure review > proposals of the state's universities. > > The post-tenure review documents were written by the Faculty > Senates of ASU Main, ASU West, Northern Arizona University and the > University of Arizona at the direction of the regents. Each > university completed its own study of the issue. The board's staff > compiled a matrix of the common elements from the reports. > > The regents will use the matrix as a guide to draft board policy on > post-tenure review. The universities will then have the opportunity > to implement their own policies complying with board's policy. > > Some of the common elements included in the annual reviews are > measurements of teaching, scholarship, service and overall > performance over a preceding 36-month review period. The annual > reviews of teaching will include student input, including > evaluation of classroom performance. > > Unsatisfactory performance in one area will require the faculty > member to enter into a faculty development plan. The faculty member > has one year to improve or could be required to enter into a > performance improvement plan. A performance improvement plan can > also be required if the faculty member has been found to be overall > unsatisfactory. A faculty member who fails to improve by reaching > designated "benchmarks" will face dismissal for just cause. > > Student Regent Jonathan Schmitt said it seemed excessive that it > takes literally years for an instructor with a teaching deficiency > to improve. > > "With the one year for annual review, a faculty development plan > plus three years for improvement plans, that is five years," > Schmitt said. "As a student, I will have graduated by then. Three > semesters should be enough to improve a teaching deficiency." > > John Schwarz, Arizona Faculties Council representative to the > board, said the three-year time frame for improvements is the > maximum. In most cases, he said the time frame would be a year to a > year and a half. > > Regent John F. Munger said he understood the need for flexibility > in the time limits, but he feared legal troubles if a faculty > member was only given one year to improve. > > "A faculty member is going to say, 'Well, I need three years,'" he > said. "Probably in every case, they are going to say that. I think > we need a specific plan." > > He said he supported one-year plans, with provisions for > exceptions. He said he did not want the universities to have to > prove they were not "arbitrary and capricious." > > While having benchmarks to measure improvements is good, he said > they do not help students. > > Schmitt also brought up student evaluations, which is not mentioned > in the individual universities' documents. > > "Not only should student input be considered, but post-tenure > reviews should contain and seriously con-sider student input," he > said. > > Regent Donald Ulrich held up an Arizona Daily Wildcat article and > questioned the logic of disregarding the views of students. > > "I have never heard of asking the customer about what is wrong with > our service or our business and then when they tell you, you say > great but we aren't going to pay any attention to it," Ulrich said. > > The report, with modifications as directed by the board, will be > brought back to the regents for its Dec. 10 meeting at the UA. > > In other action, the regents: > * Approved revising the fiscal year 1997 state operating budget > expenditure authority due to an enrollment drop at the UA of 1,312 > full-time equivalents and enrollment increases at ASU. Also > approved the fall update to the state all funds budget to include > the revisions made in the state operating budget. Both budget > requests must be forwarded to the Legislature and governor for > consideration. > * Took the first step toward including additional requirements to > recipients of undergraduate non-resident tuition waivers. Policy > changes include freezing the number of waivers awarded at current > levels and a community service requirement for recipients of 20 > hours per semester. The proposal must be heard, without changes > being made, at the December meeting, with a final vote to > implement the policy expected no sooner than the Jan. 14 -15 > meetings at ASU. > * Approved a plan to change the salary structure at the > universities. The plan, to spend $47.5 million over a three year > period, should bring faculty salaries up to those of 50 percent of > the staff at peer institutions. The plan will be submitted to the > Legislature and governor for consideration. > > ______________________________________________________________ > > (NEXT_STORY) [Daily Wildcat] > > _____________ > (NEXT_STORY) > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:45:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Ray words A BLOW TO THE HEAD I have become speculation Every delusion conforming to its aesthetic ideal Lost illusion of the irritable absolute The crucial accumulates Thick with hypotheses Into the stammering tact of written interventions By minus to retrace the share that's left By speculation Be now disabused of any sense of process employed All is appropriated and selective to profit full of droll hunchings Looks like the prudent are here with the plaster When there's nothing to lose you Make do with what was lost Not a trap for nostalgia's buzzing luster What is the lost to the gone Separation of desperation's decoy From its contacts Complex ways to lose the struggle to change the price one pays Puts a though in any thought of a straight answer Answers to answers blithe as the *uh* in spur --Lines reassembled Ray DiPalma's *Motion of the Cipher* (Roof, 1995) Thanks James, rec'd today ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:47:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: on a happier note but back to the lightsome subject of literature..... does anyone remember where David Antin's wonderful essay on MAPPING appeared? It's very old, probably from the early seventies. He contrasts two sorts of mapping, which are basically aerial mapping and the periplus--talks a lot about aboriginal maps-on-sacred-objects, used for walkabouts, as instance of the latter. In this piece he MAY also talk about the relation between intertribal warfare and excess pig population (just in case it's indexed that way in anyone's memory loops)--but that may be another piece, or a totally unrelated anecdote, having nothing to do w Antin, which I've managed to splice together with periplus problems. Marjorie? does it ring a bell? others? I thought it was in the Antin issue of VORT, but nope. I have a funny feeling it may have been an Antin contribution to a Tarn issue of VORT (if there was one), but that one (if it exists) is still packed somewhere in my garage (moved about a year and a half ago, sigh). thanks in advance for any info (lightsome remarks also appreciated, of course) yrs, (temporarily?) tenured Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 21:14:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Newsies In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19961104215021.092f30de@pop.azstarnet.com> Got the _NY Times_ to read the business as usual at Texaco story, and what do I find inside but Charles Olson looming from the page at me -- Made my day -- But I can't, in this photo, read any of the Olson letter to Rukeyser that appears in the shot -- Can any of you New Yorkers go look at the exhibit & tell me what the letter says? AND -- Sunday's _LA Times_ book review section has a positive review of Joseph Torra's novel (Zoland Books) -- Haven't seen the book itself yet, but nice to see Joe get such favorable notice from the opposite coast -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 01:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: UbuWeb Visual & Concrete Poetry Site Open At 09:33 PM 11/4/96 -0500, Kenneth Goldsmith wrote: >Announcing the largest Visual & Concrete Poetry site on the Web: >Found / Insane Visual Poetry Great site and great stuff, but I have some problems with "insane poetry" Either all poetry is insane or none is? The epithet objectifies, distancews, and diminishes the writers. Did they receive compensation or give informewd consent? Poetry written by people who suffer from mental problems is perhaps not as snappy but more appropriate and accurate. People are _not_ their diseases. Forgive the tone. This is a sensitive issue for me as a psychologist. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:28:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re Stanley George Stanley gave a rippin' good reading (including an amazing new poem that seems to be a completion of a poem started 26 years ago) at the Vancouver Public Library tonight. You should have been there. He was mainly reading from his current book (a really good one), _Gentle Northern Summer_ from New Star Books. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:33:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: on a happier note Comments: cc: tenney@AZSTARNET.COM He talks about maps, including aboriginal maps, in the piece Sociology of Art in Talking at the Boundaries. Don't recall anything abaout excess pigs. >but back to the lightsome subject of literature..... > >does anyone remember where David Antin's wonderful essay on MAPPING >appeared? It's very old, probably from the early seventies. He contrasts >two sorts of mapping, which are basically aerial mapping and the >periplus--talks a lot about aboriginal maps-on-sacred-objects, used for >walkabouts, as instance of the latter. In this piece he MAY also talk about >the relation between intertribal warfare and excess pig population (just in >case it's indexed that way in anyone's memory loops)--but that may be >another piece, or a totally unrelated anecdote, having nothing to do w >Antin, which I've managed to splice together with periplus problems. > >Marjorie? does it ring a bell? > >others? > >I thought it was in the Antin issue of VORT, but nope. I have a funny >feeling it may have been an Antin contribution to a Tarn issue of VORT (if >there was one), but that one (if it exists) is still packed somewhere in my >garage (moved about a year and a half ago, sigh). > >thanks in advance for any info (lightsome remarks also appreciated, of course) > >yrs, > >(temporarily?) tenured Tenney Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:33:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Jah Wobble/William Blake Do any of you folks who pay attention to "out" pop music know anything about a new Jah Wobble disc apparently titled "The Inspiration of William Blake"? I've seen an advertisement or two for it. Bests Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 00:16:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Olson and LP Aldon Nielsen writes: >The one LP by Olson I've heard was most interesting, full of harruummphs >and mumblings,,, and some great poetry -- It wasn't exactly speech -- it >was a groove -- > >has anybody rereleased that stuff on CD yet? I assume this is the Folkways disc, which are now being reissued as part of a program of the Smithsonian. It's unlikely that putting any of the poetry on CD is a priority, but last I checked, ANY old Folkways LP can be ordered & they make a cassette copy just for you. Here's a Web address: Everything is not listed there, but if you call the phone number (800 410-9815) I'm pretty sure that you can still get anything on cassette. Let me know if they no longer do this, 'cause I've been putting off getting a copy of "Sound of the Junk Yard." Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 02:59:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Olson and LP The Olson cassette was available as of last May. My understanding is that Smithsonian does keep a library of master recordings which are dubbed on demand, notes included (in Olson's case, by Barry Miles). Mail address for full catalogue: Folkways Center for Folklife Programs & Cultural Studies 955 L'Enfant Plaza 2600 Smithsonian Institution Washington, D.C. 20560 It's worth checking out, for poetry as well as for music... -Stephen Cope >Aldon Nielsen writes: > >>The one LP by Olson I've heard was most interesting, full of harruummphs >>and mumblings,,, and some great poetry -- It wasn't exactly speech -- it >>was a groove -- >> >>has anybody rereleased that stuff on CD yet? > > >I assume this is the Folkways disc, which are now being reissued as part of >a program of the Smithsonian. > >It's unlikely that putting any of the poetry on CD is a priority, but last >I checked, ANY old Folkways LP can be ordered & they make a cassette copy >just for you. > >Here's a Web address: > > > >Everything is not listed there, but if you call the phone number (800 >410-9815) I'm pretty sure that you can still get anything on cassette. > >Let me know if they no longer do this, 'cause I've been putting off getting >a copy of "Sound of the Junk Yard." > > > > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:20:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Bouchard Subject: Re: Newsies AND -- Sunday's _LA Times_ book review section has a positive review of Joseph Torra's novel (Zoland Books) -- Haven't seen the book itself yet, but nice to see Joe get such favorable notice from the opposite coast -- ________________ The novel is GAS STATION. An excellent novel. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:44:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew D Epstein Subject: Re: Gary Snyder Reading (NYC) In-Reply-To: On Mon, 4 Nov 1996, Shaunanne Tangney wrote: > if snyder is reading from _mountains and rivers without end_, i highly > reccomend. saw him read from this last spring at the u of nevada, reno, > and while it is a long-ish reading/performance, it is quite worth it. > snyder seems more at home w/ this epic piece than he has for many yrs w/ > other works. it was a delightful evening, with a delightful person/poet, > who is, it seems, delighted indeed with this poem. > best, > shaunanne tangney > > I thought I'd use this message as a good enough reason to remind you all again about the Snyder reading at Columbia tomorrow night. I'm pretty sure he will be reading from _Mountains and Rivers Without End_ though I don't know for certain. If you're in the area, please try to come! GARY SNYDER Introduced by Kenneth Koch Wednesday, November 6 8 PM Maison Francaise Columbia University (116th & Broadway -- take the 1 or 9 subway to 116th) Admission is free/Reception will follow the reading Thanks, Andrew Epstein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 08:56:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Ray words cool! ps i feel a bit dopey sometimes responding to poem-posts w/ one uncritical syllable, but it seems that often people's poem-posts go unresponded to, at least in the public sphere (who knows what backchannel) and i want to register some response and approval. md In message cabri writes: > A BLOW TO THE HEAD > I have become speculation > Every delusion conforming to its aesthetic ideal > > Lost illusion of the irritable absolute > The crucial accumulates > Thick with hypotheses > > Into the stammering tact of written interventions > By minus to retrace the share that's left > By speculation > > Be now disabused of any sense of process employed > All is appropriated and selective to profit full of droll > hunchings > Looks like the prudent are here with the plaster > > When there's nothing to lose you > Make do with what was lost > Not a trap for nostalgia's buzzing luster > > What is the lost to the gone > Separation of desperation's decoy > >From its contacts > > Complex ways to lose the struggle to change the price one pays > Puts a though in any thought of a straight answer > Answers to answers blithe as the *uh* in spur > > > --Lines reassembled > Ray DiPalma's *Motion of the Cipher* (Roof, 1995) > Thanks James, rec'd today ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:07:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: constabulary notes from all over hey there tenney: yes, one of the "bad regents" cited arizona in defense of her plan, saying that az had a clause about layoffs in case of program closings or etc; and there was a creeepy article in the chron of higher ed a few weeks ago urging regents' boards to become more interventionist in this vein...regents boards throughout the country are apparently egging on the one at MN, so there can be a precedent that they can then in turn cite when chopping away at their own institutions. our response is to (try to) unionize, it seems the only way. i'm excited about unionization for its own sake, as some here are as well, but some others are supporting unionization in spite of themselves; i.e. they are loath to unionize but see it as the only thing that will preserve academic freedom. opponents of unionization think it will bring down the quality, but i don't see that; rutgers, which is a stellar research university at least in the humanities, is a unionized state university. as for the faculty senate's apparent willingness to compromise or offer themselves up on a platter, i thought that was peculiar to here, where the general attitude seems to be,"if you ask for anything you'll be regarded as greedy, so you won't get anything." this of course results in no one ever getting anything, from departmental tenure lines to raises etc. i thought tht was part of "minnesota nice," but i guess it's endemic to that niveau of faculty/administrators. it seems contradictory to the old say "you don't ask, you don't get," but since when have academics made sense?--md In message <2.2.16.19961104213514.092faeb8@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > well, it isn't Minnesota, I guess, but it's still giving away the farm. one > earlier story noted that one department head (dean?) welcomed the plan > because now he could, for example, tell a particular faculty member: "the > department is moving in x direction intellectually; so I'd 'like' you to > stop doing y research and start doing research of an x-ish nature." > > is it peculiar to Arizona that the Faculty Senates sauntered so gaily up to > the chopping block? > > any opinions as to whether said faculty senates, as well as the Board of > Regents, might reasonably be sued by offended faculty members? > > I do find it remarkable that "shortcomings" in ANY ONE of the three areas > might be grounds for dismissal: teaching fine? publishing fine? well your > service is a real problem, fella.... > > the net seems wide enough that, while I doubt few will be fired in the > foreseeable future, department heads and deans and those up the ladder sure > have a vise handy for squeezing any trouble makers.... it's got to have a > seriously chilling effect on political debates in the university, if not > (perhaps?) on research agendas. > > what do far-flung Poetics folks think? looming on your own immediate > horizon? or just another weird story from the land of weird stories (the > folks, say, who brought you Evan Mecham....) > > Tenney > > > >Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 11:00:38 -0700 > >From: Tenney J Nathanson > >X-within-URL: http://wildcat.arizona.edu/~wildcat/papers/90/53/01_1_m.html > >To: nathanso@aruba.ccit.arizona.edu > >Subject: 01_1_m.html > >X-Status: > > > > > > Board of Regents hears ideas on post-tenure review > > > > By Trigie Ealey > > Arizona Daily Wildcat November 4, 1996 > > > > CAPTION: Karen C. Tully > > Arizona Daily Wildcat > > > > Student Regent Jonathan Schmitt discusses post-tenure reviews at the > > Arizona Board of Regents meeting Friday morning. The meeting took > > place at ASU's Memorial Student Union. > > [] > > > > The Arizona Board of Regents, meeting Friday on the campus of > > Arizona State University, discussed the post-tenure review > > proposals of the state's universities. > > > > The post-tenure review documents were written by the Faculty > > Senates of ASU Main, ASU West, Northern Arizona University and the > > University of Arizona at the direction of the regents. Each > > university completed its own study of the issue. The board's staff > > compiled a matrix of the common elements from the reports. > > > > The regents will use the matrix as a guide to draft board policy on > > post-tenure review. The universities will then have the opportunity > > to implement their own policies complying with board's policy. > > > > Some of the common elements included in the annual reviews are > > measurements of teaching, scholarship, service and overall > > performance over a preceding 36-month review period. The annual > > reviews of teaching will include student input, including > > evaluation of classroom performance. > > > > Unsatisfactory performance in one area will require the faculty > > member to enter into a faculty development plan. The faculty member > > has one year to improve or could be required to enter into a > > performance improvement plan. A performance improvement plan can > > also be required if the faculty member has been found to be overall > > unsatisfactory. A faculty member who fails to improve by reaching > > designated "benchmarks" will face dismissal for just cause. > > > > Student Regent Jonathan Schmitt said it seemed excessive that it > > takes literally years for an instructor with a teaching deficiency > > to improve. > > > > "With the one year for annual review, a faculty development plan > > plus three years for improvement plans, that is five years," > > Schmitt said. "As a student, I will have graduated by then. Three > > semesters should be enough to improve a teaching deficiency." > > > > John Schwarz, Arizona Faculties Council representative to the > > board, said the three-year time frame for improvements is the > > maximum. In most cases, he said the time frame would be a year to a > > year and a half. > > > > Regent John F. Munger said he understood the need for flexibility > > in the time limits, but he feared legal troubles if a faculty > > member was only given one year to improve. > > > > "A faculty member is going to say, 'Well, I need three years,'" he > > said. "Probably in every case, they are going to say that. I think > > we need a specific plan." > > > > He said he supported one-year plans, with provisions for > > exceptions. He said he did not want the universities to have to > > prove they were not "arbitrary and capricious." > > > > While having benchmarks to measure improvements is good, he said > > they do not help students. > > > > Schmitt also brought up student evaluations, which is not mentioned > > in the individual universities' documents. > > > > "Not only should student input be considered, but post-tenure > > reviews should contain and seriously con-sider student input," he > > said. > > > > Regent Donald Ulrich held up an Arizona Daily Wildcat article and > > questioned the logic of disregarding the views of students. > > > > "I have never heard of asking the customer about what is wrong with > > our service or our business and then when they tell you, you say > > great but we aren't going to pay any attention to it," Ulrich said. > > > > The report, with modifications as directed by the board, will be > > brought back to the regents for its Dec. 10 meeting at the UA. > > > > In other action, the regents: > > * Approved revising the fiscal year 1997 state operating budget > > expenditure authority due to an enrollment drop at the UA of 1,312 > > full-time equivalents and enrollment increases at ASU. Also > > approved the fall update to the state all funds budget to include > > the revisions made in the state operating budget. Both budget > > requests must be forwarded to the Legislature and governor for > > consideration. > > * Took the first step toward including additional requirements to > > recipients of undergraduate non-resident tuition waivers. Policy > > changes include freezing the number of waivers awarded at current > > levels and a community service requirement for recipients of 20 > > hours per semester. The proposal must be heard, without changes > > being made, at the December meeting, with a final vote to > > implement the policy expected no sooner than the Jan. 14 -15 > > meetings at ASU. > > * Approved a plan to change the salary structure at the > > universities. The plan, to spend $47.5 million over a three year > > period, should bring faculty salaries up to those of 50 percent of > > the staff at peer institutions. The plan will be submitted to the > > Legislature and governor for consideration. > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > > > (NEXT_STORY) [Daily Wildcat] > > > > _____________ > > (NEXT_STORY) > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:15:28 +0000 Reply-To: "F.A. Templeton" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F.A. Templeton" Subject: Readings in Cambridge, England In case anyone is on the list and in the vicinity: Nov 7, 7 pm, Rempress at PoNaNa, 7b Jesus Lane: HAZEL SMITH, OUT TO LUNCH & SIMON FELL, WITH JAMES LUCAS Nov 13, 5pm, English Faculty, 9 West Rd, FIONA TEMPLETON Nov14, 7 pm, Rempress as above, ABIGAIL CHILDS, MILES CHAMPION Nov 21, 7pm, Rempress, JOHN JAMES,STEPHEN RODEFER, WITH KESTON SUTHERLAND Nov 28, 7pm, Rempress, REMPRESS LAUNCH: KARLIEN VAN DEN BEUKEL, readings from JENNIFER MOXLEY & BETH ANDERSON, AND ANOTHER READER TBA Dec 5, 7pm, Rempress, BRIAN CATLING,IAIN SINCLAIR, WITH ROBERT BOND **Rempress eds: Lucy Sheerman, Karlien van den Beukel** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:20:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Calling magazine editors for a round table panel I have in front of me a flyer advertising and soliciting participation in the "Poetry and the Public Sphere" conference that has already been mentioned on this list, and which will take place from 4/24-4/27 1997 at the Rutgers New Brunswick campus. I am interested in proposing to the conference coordinators, as soon as humanly and electronically possible, a round table discussion by 4 or 5 magazine editors. The topic would be something like, say, "The Perils and Pleasures of Avant-Garde Publishing" (no, the title need not be so sugary or whatever). Anyone interested should please contact me asap. Here's the verbatim from the flyer, as it concerns the above: "Detailed proposals for roundtable discussions (no more than four people) to consist of five minute remarks and a moderated discussion. You may provide names and brief profiles of chair and three or four panelists, plus a two- page proposal describing the topic, approach, and intended contribution of each discussant." As you can see from this passage directly above, the proposal will have to be substantial. So any feedback, alternate suggestions for the panel's focus, or anything else you can think of is most welcome by me. Keep in mind what the title of the conference is (i won't take the time to keystroke the suggested topics printed on the flyer). Burt Kimmelman, Senior Editor Poetry New York: A Journal of Poetry and Translation Kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:00:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: constabulary notes from all over "faculty development plan"? "performance improvement plan"? how on earth is this not to reduce to a rather brutal you-do-this-or-you're-out edict if it's instituted within an existing tenure & promotion system that has historically provided for little if any faculty-based input into such 'plans'?... sounds like it's been modeled on a rehab program... seems to me it would be better to really start talking about teaching and learning as such, and not continually sidestep same on the basis of a research ethos... which latter i wouldn't give up on either, given the current privatizing pressures... but given that the above would seem to be a foregone conclusion, it seems to me that arizona has missed its opportunity, this time 'round, for talking teaching... so listen tenney, and others so interested: perhaps it's time to consider, seriously, collective bargaining... no point in pretending any longer that teachers are not workers, or pretending that profs can 'discuss' the intellectual merits of such actions (which reaction i've heard so often these days that it almost chokes me)... this isn't a matter of intelligent, give & take discussion---this is a power issue... when we've restored some balance of power, *then* we can talk with our admins, students, etc, about how to teach... hear tell the columbia u. alf-cio/faculty meet went down well (in the words of a gent i know who was in attendance, "it rocked")... anybody out there have any additional info. on same? (other than what was reported in the chronicle, i mean)... my feeling right along has been that we profs should use the nets to cultivate unionizing... does anybody know who we can talk to regarding same?---i mean, if there's a specific effort underway to nationalize such efforts?... i'm aware of different teaching unions (and right now i'm tilted toward the nea) but i'm unaware of any specific trans-regional agenda... we probably should expect that the move to unionize will be met with some federal resistance too, even if clinton is re-elected... technically the feds have to support local such efforts (through fmcs, i think it is), but legislatively, politics is politics... mebbe this should be a backchannel matter?... i've appended some e-list info that seems appropriate... that list was supposed to have been set up for a conference this past september, which i didn't attend (did any of you?)... note that i subbed well before the conference, but never heard a word back (except that subbing was not automatic, and that my sub request had been forwarded to a list moderator for approval)... in any case, i think we need more of this sort of thing... anyway, hey, happy election day to all!... joe ----------- E-Mail List for Faculty Organizing to Resist Attacks on Higher Education An e-mail list has been created for faculty members on college campuses who are interested in organizing a response to attacks on higher education, and to promote a conference (see program below) on September 28, 1996 in Cambridge, MA titled "Resisting Attacks on Higher Education and Social Justice: A Faculty Conference." This e-mail list is called CAN-FAC, short for Campus Activists' Network, Faculty Discussion. It is sponsored by Teachers for a Democratic Culture and the Center for Campus Organizing, and facilitated by Judy Ashley at the University of Vermont (jashley@gnu.uvm.edu). While much of the discussion until the 28th will focus on outreach for the conference, topics appropriate for this list include attacks on the tenure system, debates over "political correctness", the campus climate for progressive faculty members, pressure campaigns by conservative alumni, and recent congressional action defunding student aid, humanities, and civilian science programs. 1. TO SUBSCRIBE to the list, send e-mail to: canet@pencil.math.missouri.edu with a subject of "canet" whose body just says: sub can-fac Firstname Lastname 2. TO SEND A MESSAGE to the list, e-mail it to: can-fac@pencil.math.missouri.edu 3. TO UNSUBSCRIBE, send e-mail to: canet@pencil.math.missouri.edu with a subject of "canet" whose body ONLY says: unsub can-fac 4. If the volume of mail on this list becomes too large, you can always change your subscription to a "digest" (1 big message per day) by sending e-mail to: canet@pencil.math.missouri.edu with subject "canet" and body: set can-fac mail digest To undo this use "ack" in place of "digest". To suppress mail for the summer, use "postpone" in place of "digest". For more information on CANET, send any message to: canet-info@pencil.math.missouri.edu If you have any other questions, please contact the facilitator. (see below for conference info) =========================================================================== Center for Campus Organizing Box 748, Cambridge, MA 02142 617-354-9363 10am-6pm cco@igc.apc.org Web: http://envirolink.org/orgs/cco *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Resisting Attacks on Higher Education and Social Justice: A Faculty Conference Saturday, September 28, 1996, 9am-5:30pm Massachusetts Institute of Technology Room 10-250 77 Mass. Avenue, Cambridge Cosponsored by the Center for Campus Organizing and Teachers for a Democratic Culture The Event The Center for Campus Organizing, Teachers for a Democratic Culture, and the Thistle Newspaper at MIT invite you to Boston on Saturday, September 28 to discuss ways to resist agendas that would cut back higher education, reshape the academy, and censor topics from discussion that do not fit the vision of the corporate and religious right. This will be a participatory event involving faculty from CUNY, Harvard, Bennington, Goddard, Yale, Adelphi, Univ. of Mass, BU, Manchester College, Univ. of Vermont, and dozens of other schools. Center for Campus Organizing * Box 748, Cambridge, MA 02142 (617) 354-9363 cco@igc.org * Rich Cowan, rcowan@lesley.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 11:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wheeler Subject: Snakeskin robe Shakespeare buffs: "snakeskin robe" ring a bell? Susan Wheeler ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 09:41:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: arrival Dear Poetics List Folk: Having been away from the net & this poetics list for almost 3 months now, it's a pleasure to report in once again and catch up with current conversations. I also want to apologize to anyone who ordered books in July or early August who may have been served less than well due to difficulties of a move from Minnesota to Arizona which is still, in some ways, in progress, as we still don't have a permanent place to live and many things, including Chax books, are still in boxes. But the situation is getting better, so please let me know if you've had any problems. And, now here, with two new books available (previous posts in the summer announced these books as "forthcoming"), I'd like to offer to anyone on the list the ability to purchase these books from us here at the new address. _________________________________________ I. Tom Mandel Prospect of Release retail $12.95 available to poetics list members & friends (tell anyone) for $9.00 (includes shipping/handling) from the book: We malign those who disappear, their realm is small, yet invoke their names as our lives evoke theirs, words into statement. Arms wrapped to the shoulder in eternity, they cannot follow words. Instead, our course changes to near their grounds. Refracted in such frame, prolific transcendent fatherly healed cured constant, like indifference, does affection prove illusion? No beaten path nor Autobahn leads this way. A letter, reflected in flame, senses shoots to send. Unknowable, cemetery grass, be wise -- forget what we have known. 2. and, just received from printer/binder: Hank Lazer 3 of 10 retail $14.00 available to poetics list members & friends (tell anyone) for $10.00 (includes shipping/handling) from the book: 8 "He had to hide from himself the pent-up anger of having his ambitions foiled." 9"Viewed in this light, it is no accident that suicides are so common in the spring." 10 "In human intercourse the tragedy begins not when there is misunderstanding about words, but when silence is not understood." 11 "Let your life be a counter friction to stop the machine." 12 "When you travel to the celestial city, carry no letter of introduction." 13 "Whenever he got too close to success, he was not only exhilarated but scared." 14 Fuchsia Farmers of America. 15 "This strange man, rumor said, had written a book no copy of which had ever been sold." 16 To travel means to become intensely aware, by contrast, of wasted opportunities at home. 17 When on foot for great periods of time, he became acutely subject to the weather, the condition of his knees, and the availability of restrooms. 18 "The fruit a thinker bears is *sentences.*" And if anyone plans any trips to Arizona or nearby, please let me know well in advance. Perhaps readings can be set up. all best, charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com ------------------------------------------------------------ || Come ride The River ------- http://www.theriver.com/ || ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 10:47:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Wilson Subject: Publication Reading Comments: To: CREWRT-L@lists.missouri.edu, Graduate Student Caucus of the MLA --IMA.Boundary.329912748 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part ___PUBLICATION ANNOUNCEMENT___ I'll be among the readers at the publication reading for: THE NORTHRIDGE REVIEW Friday December 6, 1996 7PM California State University - Northridge BE101 - Business & Education Lecture Hall (corner of Plummer St. & Etiwanda Ave.) information - (818) 677-3431 Full information with graphics!! on the attached .pdf file. 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From: Charles Smith Subject: Fwd: Show at Berkeley Art Center: Science Imagined, 10/30--12/29 I haven't yet seen this show, but thought others might be interested: --------------------- Forwarded message: From: 0002108495@MCIMAIL.COM (AL RUBOTTOM) Sender: BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU (The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting) Reply-to: BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU (The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting) To: BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU (Multiple recipients of list BOOK_ARTS-L) Date: 96-11-04 16:37:43 EST -- [ From: Al Rubottom * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] -- DO NOT MISS THIS SHOW! if you're anywhere within range by year's end: A *fabulous* artists book show just opened at the Berkeley Art Center Assoc., located in Live Oak Part, 1275 Walnut Street, in (north) Berkeley, California. Sibyl & I attended the opening reception on Sunday and were duly impressed with the high quality of all the work displayed, the marvelous mounting of the show [kudos to BACA staff & helpers for a job well done], and the very intriguing schedule of additional events in conjunction with the show. The show will run through 29 December, Wed. - Sun. 12 - 5 p.m. This short announcement is copied from the BACA Newsleaf: A stunning exhibition of artists books, a number of them collaborations with scientists, opens at BACA on Wednesday, Ocober 30. "Science Imagined" invited the exploration of scientific principles and imaginative illustration of artists' understanding of those principles. The books produced for the exhibition are truly astonishing in the range of scientific subjects explored and the variety of presentations. Work was selected in two ways: a core of invited artists was asked to prepare a piece relating to the subject, and a call for entries was distributed nationally and internationally. The responses have been surprising and often moving. Jurors Susannah Hays (who also curated the invited portion); Robin Rider, Historian of Science and Curator of Special Collections at the Univ. of Wisconsin; and BACA director Robbin Henderson selected nearly 30 books from over 60 submitted. Books came from as far away as the Netherlands, U.K. and Canada, as well as from across the U.S. and from the presses of many local artists. Participants number nearly 80 and include Leda Black, Nance O'Banion, Marylee Bytheriver, Julie Chen, SAS Colby, Dale Going, Georgianna Greenwood, Charles Hobson, Michael Henninger, Lisa Kokin, Meredith Mustard, Lynne Prather, Joyce Cutler-Shaw, Jaime Robles, Anne Schwartzburg, Judith Serebrin, Indigo Som, Joanne Sonnichsen, Donna & Peter Thomas, F. Deschamps and J. Mohns, Elena Rivera, Diane Jacobs, Michael O'Shea, Nancy Ruth Leavitt, Dorothy Yule, and many others. [including Sibyl Rubottom, James Machacek, Steve Nosaan, and Sara Rosenbluth of San Diego!] A lovely catalog is available for $15. The special events planned in conjunction with the exhibition's run include: Readings from the books, Tues., Nov. 12, 7:30 p.m. Collaborations, Artists & Scientists, Thurs., Dec. 19, 7:30 p.m. Berkeley Art Center 1275 Walnut Street Berkeley, CA 94709 510.644.6893 easily found from I-80: take Gilman exit and go east/inland, note that Gilman merges into Hopkins, follow Hopkins until Walnut, et voila! [check for directions from BACA if needed] or, go one block from Black Oak Books/The Cheeseboard/Chez Panisse up to Walnut (Peet's is at corner of Walnut & Rose), and proceed north on Walnut a few blocks 'til you come upon Live Oak Park on your right... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:41:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Jah Wobble/William Blake Settings of Blake by Wobble. Considered too un-commercial by his label and therefore released courtesy of Jah her selves. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 14:51:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: National Poetry Foundation Website Improved! The graphics will download much more quickly now. Thanks to several people for alerting me to the problem--especially Dean Taciuch,for his suggestions. I've added another graphic, and some announcements, to the Bulletin Board, and have more to add as soon as I can figure out how to make that little doggy in the FETCH program run back and forth. The address again: http://www.ume.maine.edu/~npf/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 15:04:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: National Poetry Foundation Website I Comments: To: Sylvester Pollet test ---------- From: Sylvester Pollet To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: National Poetry Foundation Website Improved! Date: Tuesday, November 05, 1996 2:33PM The graphics will download much more quickly now. Thanks to several people for alerting me to the problem--especially Dean Taciuch,for his suggestions. I've added another graphic, and some announcements, to the Bulletin Board, and have more to add as soon as I can figure out how to make that little doggy in the FETCH program run back and forth. The address again: http://www.ume.maine.edu/~npf/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:35:26 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: (FORWARDED) AWOL: PUSHING AT SILENCE By Andrew Burke >Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 06:59:25 +1000 >To: awol@ozemail.com.au >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL: PUSHING AT SILENCE By Andrew Burke > >The following informationhas been posted by AWOL on behalf of FOLIO and >Andrew Burke. Please address any enquiries to them at the contacts >provided. > > >************************************************************************ > > >TITLE: PUSHING AT SILENCE >PUBLISHER: FOLIO (SALT) >AUTHOR: ANDREW BURKE >PUB. DATE: November 3rd, 1996 >DISTRIBUTION: Through AWOL PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 or by mail to FOLIO > (SALT) Po Box 202,Applecross WA 6153 >PRICE: $16.95 (Buy a second copy to lend to friends!) > >This is Andrew Burke's fourth collection. > >Dorothy Hewett says: "Succinct, quirky, economical, with its moments of >piercing recognition, Andrew Burke's latest collection, PUSHING AT SILENCE, >breaks my heart.Is it because it is about the little city I grew up in, the >one with the river, or is it because the past haunts him like it does me, >with its lost childhood, its dead parents, its changed landscape and its >everlasting hopefulness ...?" > > > > >**************************************************************************** >************ > > > > > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > > > > Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:39:30 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL November Happenings posted Anyone interested in writing events in Australia, or the latest latest Australian literary magazines & publications, can find the November HAPPENINGS listing on the Australian Writing On Line website http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol/Happenings.html Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Nov 1996 19:30:15 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: buy nothing day (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "joy n. kogawa" <103005.255@CompuServe.COM> In solidarity with Adbusters "cast off the chains of market-structured consciousness" and Participate by Not Participating on INTERNATIONAL BUY NOTHING DAY NOVEMBER 29, 1966, a twenty-four hour moratorium on consumer spending to remind us all of the real power of the buying public. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 05:18:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: SubVoicive Great reading last night by Robin Blaser at SubVoicive, The Three Cups pub, Holborn, London. His first in London, I believe. He was in fine form, reading extensively in two half-hour sets from his collected poems THE HOLY FOREST. There was some discussion about how to acquire this magnificent book, which is hard to get hold of in the UK due to Coach House Press' demise. Lawrence Upton suggested putting pressure on Compendium Bookshop to import copies from whichever warehouse they're sitting in. Thanks to Peter Quartermain and David Bromige for alerting us to Robin's arrival in this country (he was appearing in the Six Towns Poetry Festival, Newcastle under Lyme) and so enabling us to arrange a London gig. There were about 30 people present, which, as those of you who know the Three Cups upper room, means quite a degree of intimacy. Among the audience: Sandy Kindness, Johan de Wit, Gavin Selerie, Brian Docherty, John Cayley, Patrick Wright, Bob Cobbing, Will Rowe, Harry Gilonis, Peterjon and Yasmin Skelt, Geoffrey and Valerie Soar, Robert Sheppard, David Miller and our host Lawrence Upton. Apologies to those whose names I forgot. Readings coming up at SubVoicive: 19 Nov Michael Heller 10 Dec Quick hits (open reading for regulars) 14 Jan Allen Fisher (the Eric Mottram annual memorial reading) The Three Cups is in Sandland Street, near Holborn tube station. All readings start at 8.00 for 8.15pm. Also coming up: Reality Street Editions presents a reading to launch the new "4packs" anthology SLEIGHT OF FOOT Miles Champion, Helen Kidd and Harriet Tarlo will be reading. Scott Thurston, also included in the book, is, unfortunately for us, in Poland. Tue 26 Nov, 7.00pm at Compendium Bookshop, 234 Camden High St, London NW1 FREE (refreshments provided) Ken Edwards ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 05:18:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Literary culture Belated apologies to everyone: Robin Purves, Ron Silliman and the rest of the list, for giving the impression inadvertently (through lack of proper contextualisation) that I imagined Ron was berating James Kelman for obscenity! And welcome to the list, Robin. Subscribers should note that Robin is one half of the editorial partnership that produces the excellent magazine OBJECT PERMANENCE, one of the sparkiest things in the British Isles right now. Ken ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 05:18:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: gobbledygook Please, please... can people confine their postings to this list to straight vanilla email text. For those of us who get the Digest version, anything else results in bloated files and us having to scroll through yards of computer code. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:12:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Snyder / Wieners Tonight at Columbia, Gary Snyder Tomorrow at Poetry City, John Wieners If Eleni Sikelianos weren't reading with John Wieners how would you know what year it is. How do you know. 116 & B'way free 5 Union Sq W NYC (212) 691-6590 free Never listen to acceptance speeches, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 07:45:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School EXTRA EXTRA READ ALL ABOUT IT POETI BRIEFS 21 IS IN THE MAIL SPECIAL ISSUE ON ALICE NOTLEY AND VISION COMMENTARY BY HENRY GOULD, CONNIE DEANOVICH, ELIZABETH BURNS, JULIANA SPAHR, DAN FEATHERSTON, LOSS GLAZIER, BOB GRUMMAN, ED FOSTER FOR YOUR VERY OWN COPY, SEND TWO STAMPS TO JEFFERSON HANSEN, 4055 YOSEMITE AVE. S, ST. LOUIS PARK, MN 55416. FOR A SUBSCRIPTION, SEND A BOOK OF STAMPS. FUTURE ISSUES WILL FEATURE THE WALLACE-HANSEN DIALOGUES AND A REVIEW OF THE DADA PHOTOMONTAGIST HANNAH HOCH'S FIRST AMERICAN EXHIBIT DON'T MISS ANY OF IT JEFF ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:12:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Snyder / Wieners jordan, are these readings ever taped? any recent tapes of wieners that anyone knows of?--md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Tonight at Columbia, Gary Snyder > Tomorrow at Poetry City, John Wieners > > If Eleni Sikelianos weren't reading with John Wieners > how would you know what year it is. How do you know. > > 116 & B'way free > 5 Union Sq W NYC (212) 691-6590 free > > Never listen to acceptance speeches, > Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 09:25:14 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: sun ra saw sun ra's surviving arkestra at cramped little joint last night in mpls, never seen before by moi, very good, transformative energy, moving. "the saints were marching in" when these middle aged profound musicians put on their sparkly space-hats and plastic choir robes and chanted "the earth is not my home," and "space is the place," and "sunset on the river Nile." all white audience practically, that worshipful bouncy look of mouthing the words along, the ones who weren't too drunk or lovey-doving with their hetero-partners. very much cool how these guys interacted with each other organically very.--md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:30:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: upcoming RI reading Karen Donovan & Walker Rumble of Oat City Press will read, & show around their letterpress work, this Friday Nov 8th at Native Gallery, 387 Charles St, Providence. 8 pm, immediately following the opening for the gallery's November photo exhibit. Pass-the-hat, lots of food, enormous gallery space (actually larger than the state of Rhode Island). call 401-521-3554 for directions. Sponsored by ye Poetry Mission. Last gallery reading until Feb '97. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 08:32:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: sun ra In-Reply-To: <3280adda523e178@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> Would like to hear more about the Sun Ra Arkestra Concert -- Like, for example, who is playing the keyboards in the absence of the once and future myth? Grew up watching this band in D.C., where all black (well, not exactly, since I was there) audiences were then the norm -- There was also a guy named Norm who used to come to the shows come to think of it -- Does Jackie Jackson still play Bassoon and Ancient Egyptian Infinity Drum? What's the front line like without June Tyson, Marshall Allen, Pat Patrick, John Gilmore????? Has anybody else seen a concert anywhere since Ra's return to whatever plane beyond Alabama he emanated from? AND -- Rhapsody Films recently released on vide cassette the remarkable movie _Space Is The Place_ a sort of Ra Blaxploitation era film not to be missed -- Evidence records just released a two CD set of Ra singles, including his Do Wop productions and the unforgettable "I'm Gonna Unmask the Batman" Ra, by the way, frequently worked with poets -- though his collaboration with Baraka blew up when the Harlem Blackhouse project went bust -- Heliocentrically yours, Aldon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexander Laurence Subject: Cups Magazine Comments: cc: bernstei@acsu.buffalo Cups Magazine is announcing that its upcoming January Issue will feature the strongest selection of writing ever in its history. Cups Magazine will be celebrating its one year anniversary in New York City by publishing an anthology of some of most important writers to ever grace its pages. This special issue will include new work by William T. Vollmann, Rikki Ducornet, Gilbert Sorrentino, Jacques Servin, Stephen Dixon, Richard Grossman, Dean Kuipers, Shirley Jackson, Jillian St Jacques, Donald Grose, Eric Darton, Alexander Theroux, Elaine Equi, Richard Kostelanetz and others. ************ Cups is a free monthly publication distributed in cafes and bookstores in New York City and The Bay Area. Over 50,000 people read Cups each month, and has been in existence for over the last five years. Cups reflects the cafe-goer's passion for literature, art, music, off-beat entertainment. Besides poetry and fiction, each issue includes an interview with a contemporary writer and/or musician. Recent issues featured interviews with Siri Hustvedt, Peter Theroux, Steve Erickson, Stewart Home, Martin Amis, Ronald Sukenick, Alexander Theroux, Art Spigelman, Bruce Benderson, Mary Gaitskill, Thom Jones, Dennis Cooper, Nicholson Baker, Janice Eidus, Gilbert Sorrentino, Carl Rakosi, Will Alexander, Mark Leyner, Henry Rollins, Allen Ginsberg, Arthur Blythe, and Townes Van Zandt. New York Office: Cups Magazine 10 East 39th Street New York, NY 10016 212 213-3886 voice 212 213-3847 fax Cupslit@aol.com Cups Editors: Alexander Laurence, Christopher Sorrentino, Thomas Lecky, Eurydice, Carl Watson, Missy Miller, Katherine Katsens, Phillippe Blondez, Rebecca Nayery, Heather Bradshaw ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 13:14:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Jenney Comments: cc: drothschild@penguin.com, fittermn@is.nyu.edu I like stories about abandoned cars. From Joe Torra's new novel Gas Station. Zoland Books. Cambridge, Mass. 11.95. Morning snowdrifts five six feet high across the station lot still snowing radio stations on storm emergency Blackie fixes the plow piston I shovel two-feet-wide strip around pump island, another two feet away from the building, my father plows one long pile into bigger piles ten feet high front and rear of the station. Interstate 93 closed blocked hundreds of cars abandonned must be cleared for plow trucks most of the abandoned cars are locked we have to struggle with a coat hanger to get the doors open Blackie and I returning to the station in the tow truck with a car on the boom my father's broken English over the radio WBZ emergency hotline tella de people no locka de cars whenaday leavem onnada highway we laugh out loud tella de people no locka de cars Blackie mocks. We tow twenty-four hours straight thirty-three cars in the lot nowhere to put more my father charges twenty-five for the tow fifteen a day storage some argue too much but want their cars back and pay. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:18:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: sun ra In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Would like to hear more about the Sun Ra Arkestra Concert -- Like, for > example, who is playing the keyboards in the absence of the once and > future myth? i don't know enough abt the band to be able to say. all i know is that marshall allen was there directing. i only know this cuz i was with friends who are avid ra-sters who told me. > > Grew up watching this band in D.C., where all black (well, not exactly, > since I was there) audiences were then the norm -- There was also a guy > named Norm who used to come to the shows come to think of it -- cool. > > Does Jackie Jackson still play Bassoon and Ancient Egyptian Infinity Drum? someone was, but don't know who. > > What's the front line like without June Tyson, Marshall Allen, Pat > Patrick, John Gilmore????? at least allen was there, perhap some of the others you name as well. > > Has anybody else seen a concert anywhere since Ra's return to whatever > plane beyond Alabama he emanated from? > > AND -- Rhapsody Films recently released on vide cassette the remarkable > movie _Space Is The Place_ a sort of Ra Blaxploitation era film not to > be missed -- my friends have copies of all this stuff so i'll get a chance to hear/see... md > > Evidence records just released a two CD set of Ra singles, including his > Do Wop productions and the unforgettable "I'm Gonna Unmask the Batman" > > Ra, by the way, frequently worked with poets -- though his collaboration > with Baraka blew up when the Harlem Blackhouse project went bust -- > > Heliocentrically yours, > Aldon ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 12:31:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: m davidson's e-address? cd someone backchannel me michael davidson's e-mail address? i need to get info again on those ucsd special collections travel grants. thanks, md ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:31:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: sun ra Since the subject matter of Sun Ra has come up: A friend of mine is looking for vinyl copies of Sun Ra's work. Are there any locations that are hot and full of vinyl product? You may want to backchannel this info to me. thanks. tosh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 10:54:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Tristan D. Saldana" Subject: Yi-Young Lee Mr. Lee is reading here at Cal State Northridge tomorrow, at the Music Recital Hall at 4:30 PM. Tristan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:28:48 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: (Forwarded) AWOL: Hazel Smith Abstractly Represented for sale Please send all enquiries to awol@ozemail.com.au and not the list please....... >Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 06:53:01 +1000 >To: awol@ozemail.com.au >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL: Hazel Smith Abstractly Represented for sale > >* > >Now available through AWOL.......... > > >Hazel Smith Abstractly Represented: Poems and Performance Texts 1982-90, >Butterfly Books, 1991 > >ISBN 0 947333 36 3 > >$10.00 (Australian) > >About Abstractly Represented > >In Abstractly Represented Hazel Smith explores the plasticity of language >in new and radical ways. Eroding and transforming conventional ways of >using words she produces complex linguitsic structures in which sound and >association are paramount. The works in this volume range through >dismembered and reassembled narratives to performance pieces with words >notated in musical rhythms. They draw on, and can be appreciated within, a >long tradition of poetry. But at the same time they invert and dismantle >that traditon, challenging in startling and stimulating ways the whole >notion of what it means to read a poem, of what a poem actually is. > > >Short biography > >Hazel Smith, who lived in England until she moved to Australia at the end >of 1988, works in the areas of poetry, experimental writing, text-sound, >performance and multi-media work. She has published in numerous >international poetry magazines. Her volume Threely was published by the >Spectacular Diseases Imprint in 1986, and her volume Abstractly >Represented: Poems and Performance Texts 1982-90 was published byButterfly >Books in 1991. Some of her work was included in the 1991 anthology Floating >Capital: New Poets From London, Potes and Poets Press, U.S.A in the volume >Compositions for Improvisors, La Trobe University Press, 1994. Her CD Poet >Without Language was released on Rufus Records, Sydney, in 1994. > >Hazel has given poetry performances in many countries including Australia, >Great Britain, USA, Belgium and New Zealand, and also on the ABC, BBC and >US radio. In Australia she has appeared at the Tasmanian Poetry Festival, >1989; Writers in Recital at the Art Gallery of New South Wales, Sydney, >1990; The Queensland Writers' Centre, 1992; the Perth Writers' Centre 1994; >the Performance Space Sydney, 1994; the NSW Writers' Centre Festival, >Sydney, 1995; and many other venues. In 1990 she collaborated with >Sieglinde Karl and Graham Jones on the installation-performance piece >TranceFIGUREd Spirit, which was supported by the Australia Council and >performed in Tasmania. She has collaborated on several pieces with >musician Roger Dean and their works Poet Without Language, Silent Waves, >Caged John UnCaged and Nuraghic Echoes have been commissioned by, and >featured on, the ABC programs The Listening Room, Random Round and >Jazztracks. Their work has also been broadcast on Radio France, and on New >Zealand radio. Their piece Poet Without Language was nominated by the ABC >for the Prix Italia in 1993. Their new CD, Nuraghic Echoes, will be >released by Rufus Records in 1996. > >Hazel has a PhD in contemporary American poetry and is a lecturer in the >School of English at the University of New South Wales. She has published >numerous articles on contemporary poetry and performance, and is co-author >with Roger Dean of the book Improvisation, Hypermedia And The Arts Since >1945 to be published by Gordon and Breach in 1996. She is currently >writing a book on the New York poet Frank O'Hara for Liverpool University >Press. She has also been an internationally active violinist and leader of >the contemporary music group austraLYSIS. She has performed solos and >chamber music in many parts of the world including Australia, Belgium, >Denmark, Great Britain, Hong Kong, India, Indonesia, New Zealand, Norway >and the Philippines. She features as soloist on several commercial >recordings, including two of works by Milhaud. > >Feature articles on Hazel have appeared in 1995 in HQ Magazine, Real Time, >Sounds Australian, The Australian Women's Book Review and Southerly. A >special edition of Pages (UK) was also devoted to her work. In March 1996 >she appeared at the Salamanca Poetry Festival in Hobart, where she both >performed her own work and took part in a panel on experimental poetry >chaired by Philip Mead. Her work is also featured in a collaborative >installation with accompanying publication, Secret Places, funded by Arts >Tasmania which was exhibited in Launceston during March and April 1996 at >the Queen Victoria Art Gallery and Museum. > > >********* > >Order by sending Aust$10.00 (plus $1 postage) (overseas orders please >contact us first for postage & conversion) to AWOL PO Box 333 Concord NSW >2137 Australia > > > > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > > > > Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 14:44:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: sun ra In-Reply-To: Relieved to hear of Marshall Allen's coninued participation in earthly delights -- only vinyl I know of here is in my closet -- BUT should have mentioned this AM: Sun Ra Quarterly Omni Press P.O. Box 786 Millbrae, CA 94030 sub. == $16.00 contains interviews, photos, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:11:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Curtis J Leitz Subject: Madeline Gleason query Howdy: I'm new to the list and must say that i'm impressed with its energy and enthusiasm. I'd like to tap some of that power and put it toward a search i've just begun for information on Madeline Gleason's activities in the 1940s and 1950s, particularly those involving reading groups, the S.F. State Poetry Center, and the S.F. Poetry Guild. Right now i'm trying to track down unpublished and published info alike, and would appreciate any info, tips, sources, names, etc. that anyone might backchannel my way. Thanks much. Curt Leitz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 19:30:00 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Frontline Feminism conference mailing list (fwd) To Whom it May Concern, The Center for Women in Coalition is preparing to mail out posters/registration forms for the Jan. 1997 Conference "Frontline Feminisms." Many of you have expressed interest in this conference and would like to have more information or a registration form. However, CWIC does not have your mailing address. If you would like to receive a FF poster or be included in our mailing database, please reply to this e-mail address with your complete mailing information. Thank You For Your Cooperation and Interest. Melissa Fabros Center for Women in Coalition ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Nov 1996 22:00:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: sun ra For those who've room left in their mailboxes, there's a Sun Ra list which can be reached at SATURN@NIC.SURFNET.NL. It's a particularly good resource for those interested in rare, op, Sun Ra titles and upcoming shows, events, etc. I know that there was an auction held earlier this year (which featured some Arkestra titles as well as many other jazz titles, rare and otherwise) that was to benefit the Arkestra and the various illnesses therein. A post to the Saturn list should yield further details... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:00:39 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: San Francisco Premonitions Reading This is Dodie Bellamy. Small Press Traffic is happy to present a reading of Northern California contributors to the wonderful Premonitions anthology--including a rare appearance from the Poetics List's own Walter Lew. Here's an announcement: Small Press Traffic presents _Premonitions_ readings by Myung Mi Kim Celine Salazar Parrenas Ronald Phillip Tanaka and editor Walter K. Lew =46riday, November 15, 1996 7:30 p.m. at the New College Theater 777 Valencia Street, SF $5 _Premonitions, The Kaya Anthology of New Asian North American Poetry,_ edited by Walter K. Lew, is one of the most exciting books in years. Small Press Traffic is pleased to present its editor, Walter K. Lew, and some of his local contributors. As Maria Damon has written, =B3An exquisite artifact of activist experimentalism, theoretically smart and so beautiful it hurts, _Premonitions_ promises to be a landmark in American letters for many years to come.=B2 Myung Mi Kim teaches Creative Writing at San Francisco State University. She is the author of _Under Flag_ and _The Bounty_. Celine Salazar Parrenas is working on her MFA in Film and Television at UCLA. Her films include _Her Uprooting Plants Her_ and _Mahal Means Love and Expensive_. Ronald Phillip Tanaka is a photographer and Professor of English at California State University, Sacramento. He is the author of _The Shino Suite: Sansei Poetry_. Walter K. Lew is the author of _Excerpts from: =90IKTH DIKTE for DICTEE_. He edited the inaugural volume of _Mu=E6: A Journal of Transcultural Production_, selected by _Library Journal_ as one of the top new magazines of 1995. Lew's translations of the Korean poetry of Yi Sang appear in _Poems for the Millennium: The University of California Book of Modern & Postmodern Poetry_, Vol. 1. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 07:55:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wheeler Subject: Events Will be in London Nov 29 - Dec 1 & San Francisco Dec 6 - 9 Readings recommended? (I hear I'll just miss Oppen lecture Dec 5) Susan Wheeler 37 Washington Square West #10A New York, New York 10011 (212) 254-3984 wheeler@is.nyu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 08:15:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: looking for basinski Sorry to bother the list with this. Mike Basinski, would you contact me personally, please. I've lost your address and need some help. Thanks, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 10:46:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ms Subject: readings Comments: To: tom mackey , 't'-eduard fristrom , ross prinzo , robert wilkie , paula orlando , jennifer beck , ilja o keil , dimitri anastasopoulos , diane olson , christina milletti , anthony miccoli , Pierre Joris , lori a horvitz in case anyone is going to be in the(new york) city this weekend: an alumni of SUNYAlbany, Michael Blitz, who is now an assoc.prof at John Jay College of Criminal Justice will be reading at Biblio's (two blocks south of Canal St on Chruch) this Sunday at 5 pm. Michael is one hell of a poet (pick up, scour for: _Five Days in the Electric Chair_, or his more recent _Suction Files_, both by Woodbine Press) and a damn fine lunatic when examined closely. but the reading should go as all readings do, but better. just a note to anyone who's interested, manny savopoulos ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:25:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: help please In-Reply-To: <199611071315.IAA13307@chass.utoronto.ca> hello all, does anyone have the eddress of western canadian poet dennis cooley? is he(areyou) on this list? thanks in advance. kevin angelo@mustang.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: ROOF BOOK SPECIAL OFFER PRELIM. RESULTS (fwd) Well folks, the preliminary results are in from our ROOF BOOKS special offer and sadly, we cannot claim the huge success we did last time, when we recorded nearly 100 orders. We are nonetheless very appreciative of the orders we have received thus far and hope that some of you others out there will realize just what an amazing deal this Special Offer is. SO DON'T MISS OUT, ORDER NOW! We can only continue to make these periodic sales to the list if we accumulate the volume necessary to warrant the low $5.00 price. I hope those of you who haven't ordered yet, will take another look at the quality of the authors and works represented. Think of the excitement of receiving three shiny new ROOF Books in the mail for only $15.00. This is the last offer ROOF will make to the list for a long while, so order now, before the fast approaching deadline, coinciding with the release of our new fall/winter line of titles. What's more, we are extending our deadline two more days to November 17, midnight, in honor of Charles Bernstein and Australian poet John Kinsella's reading at The Segue Performance Space, 7 p.m., 303 E. 8th Street (betw B&C), NY, NY 10009, same address as ROOF BOOKS. And make those checks for the books payable to "The Segue Foundation". For international orders, please add $1 per book to cover shipping and make checks payable in US dollars. Here's the original offer: Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 19:14:25 -0400 (EDT) From: James Sherry To: UB Poetics discussion group Cc: jsherry@panix.com Subject: ROOF BOOK SPECIAL OFFER > ROOF BOOKS is making a special offer > > to Poetics Subscribers <> > > Poetics Subscribers may buy from the following list of Roof Books for $5 > (five dollars) each. In order to qualify for this offer you must > order a minimum of 3 (three) books from the list of titles below. > Postage is free 4th class book rate > (allow two weeks for processing and delivery). You must order by > November 15, 1996 to receive this offer. > > To order simply forward this message to JSHERRY@PANIX.COM: include > your name, shipping address, and the list of books you want. Please > make sure, however, you do not press reply, or you will respond to the > entire poetics list and we don't want that. > > Roof Books will ship you the books, postage free with a stamped envelope > and a bill. Upon receipt of your books, you send Roof a Check. > Important: Checks must be payable to: "THE SEGUE FOUNDATION, INC." > (put "Roof Spec. Offer: #books" in byline). > > List of special offer Roof Books: Again, you must order three. > > Bruce Andrews, Ex Why Zee > Alan Davies, Signage > Jean Day, A Young Recruit > Ray Di Palma, Motion of the Cypher > Ken Edwards, Good Science > Larry Eigner, Areas Lights Heights > Laura Moriarty, Rondeaux > Nick Piombino, The Boundary of Blur > Ron Silliman, N/O > Diane Ward, Relation > > We had a fine response to last season's offer. Many people ordered & > all responded promptly with their checks. 100% satisfaction on both ends. > So... > > Order Today > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 13:28:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Nowak Subject: Paul Metcalf Readings For list folks in the Midwest, just got this news in in November readings by Paul Metcalf: November 13th: Borders, Calhoun Square, Minneapolis, 7:30pm November 19th: Hungry Mind Bookstore, St. Paul, 7:00pm November 21st: 57th Street Books, Chicago, 7:00pm November 23rd: Woodland Pattern, Milwaukee (no time given) I'll probaby be at both Twin Cities events, if anyone wants to grab food or coffee before or after. Mark Nowak manowak@alex.stkate.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:59:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rod Smith Subject: Onward: Contemporary Poetry & Poetics Announcing availability of _Onward: Contemporary Poetry & Poetics_ edited by Peter Baker, Peter Lang Publishing, $29.95, 439 pages, paperback. Contents Bernadette Mayer -- Twenty Questions about Form or New Forms / Experimental Writing, or, Writing the Long Work/ Poems Lyn Hejinian -- The Rejection of Closure / Poems from The Cell Charles Bernstein -- The Parts Are Greater than the Sum of the Whole Rosmarie Waldrop -- Thinking of Follows / Inserting the Mirror Harry Mathews -- Dormouse Poem David Bergman -- Staying in the Lines John Taggart -- Were You: Notes & A Poem for Michael Palmer Rachel Blau DuPlessis -- On Drafts: A Memorandum of Understanding / Draft 11: Schwa C. D. Wright -- Provisional Remarks... / Op Ed / the box this comes in/ Poems from Tremble Albert Cook -- Poetic Purposes / Syllabic Margin / Poems Robert Creeley -- Was That a Real Poem or Did You Just Make It up Yourself? / Nothing New / Four Days in Vermont Stephen Rodefer -- Preface to Four Lectures / Prologue to Language Doubling / Enclosure of Elk / The Library of Label / Poems Clark Coolidge -- from Notebooks / Regarding Morton Feldman's Music. . . / Letters / Poems Michael Palmer -- Active Boundaries / Autobiography / Far Away Near Joan Retallack -- The Poethical Wager / AUTOBIOGRAPHIALITTERARIA II / The Woman in the Chinese Room Nicole Brossard -- Fluid Arguments Carolyn Forche -- On Subjectivity / Poems Bob Perelman -- Statement /The Marginalization of Poetry / The Manchurian Candidate: A Remake Barrett Watten -- Nonnarrative/History / Position/ Bad History I John Ashbery -- PN Interview / Poems from Houseboat Days Because Lang has published this as a textbook we cannot offer the usual discount/free freight deal you've come to know & love. So it's $29.95 plus two or three dollars shipping, depending on where you are. To order: 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the book. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, card # & expiraton date, we will send a receipt with the book. Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Wahsington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:12:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: WOODLAND PATTERN READINGS High level of excitement here with Packers' upcoming swing through KC, Dallas and Chicago-- while Pack is on the road upcoming readings at Woodland Pattern Book Center here in Milwaukee to raise even higher cheers and excitement & "take it to another level"-- November 17,(Sunday) 7:00 pm: JAAP BLONK "Being there on stage is a higher and more intense mode of existence . . . the quintessence of sound poetry is performance"--Jaap Blonk. Blonk will be performing his own work as well as works by Kurt Scwitters, Hugo Ball, Antonin Artaud and Dick Higgins. November 23 (Saturday) 8:00 pm PAUL METCALF "I once wrote an essay, "Totem Paul: A Self Review" in which I used the image of the totem pole--a narrative hieroglyph--as an analog to my work. The juxtaposed figures on totem poles may be read as tribal history, which was the intention of the artisans who carved them. Earlier, in talking of my efforts, I would mention 'mosaic' or 'collage'; I think the totem pole, with the narrative dynamic, is more apt."--Paul Metcalf. Volume One of Metcalf's Collected Works is just out from Coffee House. Highly recommend this to readers--especially GENOA and THE MIDDLE PASSAGE: A TRYPTICH OF COMMODITIES NOVEMBER 22-DECEMBER 31 ART EXHIBIT: JOHN BRANDI DECEMBER 7 (Saturday) 8:00 pm: JOHN BRANDI & KYOKO MORI Woodland Pattern Book Center 720 East Locust Milwaukee, WI. 53212 Admission: Advance tickets phone: 414 263-5001 & members: $5.00 General Public: $6.00 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 00:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Bentley Subject: Lawrence Raab One of my students told me that she's been looking all over for information on Lawrence Raab and can't find anything. She asked me for help, but alas I wasn't much. Does anyone have any bright ideas for locating information about Lawrence Raab? About all I know of him is that he wrote a really great poem called ATTACK OF THE CRAB MONSTERS that comes at the end of some Norton Anthology that I once wrote. If anyone can be of any help, please backchannel me. Thanks, Scott Bentley ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 23:05:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: help please >hello all, >does anyone have the eddress of western canadian poet dennis cooley? is >he(areyou) on this list? > >thanks in advance. >kevin >angelo@mustang.uwo.ca You can try him at work. English dept., St. John's College, University of manitoba, Winnipeg. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:27:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Lawrence Raab i believe lawrence raab teaches at williams college in williamstown massachusetts if he has not yet retired. maybe he'd know about work about him. md In message <961108001630_1948558634@emout13.mail.aol.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > One of my students told me that she's been looking all over for information > on Lawrence Raab and can't find anything. She asked me for help, but alas I > wasn't much. Does anyone have any bright ideas for locating information about > Lawrence Raab? About all I know of him is that he wrote a really great poem > called ATTACK OF THE CRAB MONSTERS that comes at the end of some Norton > Anthology that I once wrote. If anyone can be of any help, please backchannel > me. Thanks, Scott Bentley ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 09:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Bettman archives Dear Listers, I feel somewhat silly putting this request out, but I'm unable to find the whereabouts of the Bettman Archive. Thought it was in Baltimore. Does anyone know which city it's in? Please backchannel. Thanks. Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 12:18:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Ange Mlinko & Edwin Torres @ Ear Inn Sat 2:30 for those of you in the nyc area: please come to the Ear Inn Sat nov 9 @ 2:30 to hear sound poet Edwin Torres and poet poet Ange Mlinko. The Ear Inn is located at 326 Spring Street far west. It has a green door. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 10:40:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Wilson Subject: Yeats Assistance Comments: To: Graduate Student Caucus of the MLA , crew After a long, frustrated Melvyl search, I turn to the lists for assistance. Does anyone know of a book which sets Yeats' poems side by side against the prose sketch which provided the impetus for the poem? Thanks. Ian Wilson Loyola Marymount University, Los Angeles iwilson@mgmua.com http://www.iglou.com/irwilson/index.shtml ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:02:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Fridays' bk review (longish) Comments: To: kristen@BROWNVM.brown.edu Kristen Prevallet Lead, Glass and Poppy Washington DC: primitive publications, 1996 [WARNING: the Surgeon General has declared that pre-contextualization may be hazardous to your health & literary sensibilities.] Like Hesiod and Jimi Hendrix before her, Kristen Prevallet is fascinated with cosmic phenomena - asteroids, UFOs, the ends of the world(s). She brings to these interests a penetrating critical intelligence & a multifarious poetic talent. In this chapbook-length short-long poem, as in her previous work (see for example her longish poem "Mad Sarah" in Nedge #4) she manages a balancing act which is crucial to serious poetry, in my view: she pays full due to metaphysics and the religious sense & its human centrality - but counterweights it with a critical awareness of the fallibility (& tragicomic nonsense) of human mythical constructs. What results is a "poetic mythology" which is aware of the global predicament of the present - an historical-political-ecological awareness - infiltrated by a need for faith and its artistic embodiments. But don't let reviewistic portentousness obscure the reader's sense of the author's humor, wit & style. Her balance of faith/irony is mirrored in a genuine balance of style/material. Many are the poets on the one hand who pour out lugubrious documentary/personal rants; many on the other who are smothered in style: meaningless sound, arbitrary syntax, put-on artiness. Few like Prevallet manage to balance the logic of the theme with the form of the poem. This poem is structured in two columns, divided by the spine of the pamphlet (the "spine" itself becoming a Dantesque symbol of the cosmic-human book of life). On the left hand, the narrator speaks, in a voice which modulates between the oracular & the personal/ demotic. On the right hand, quotations, documentary evidence, which "comment" on the text (& vice versa). I can't replicate this format here, but will provide a couple of excerpts. The poem opens as follows: [on left side, lines flush to left margin:] Often there is a star comes down from the blue and lands in the deepest part where a heart and the flesh that beats it out in a trickle of daylight and ash does conspire to hold all flying things "sacred" as bombs and Eros collide with the same surface and mark their intent with an obliteration elemental as fire but not as blood-soaked-through with disasters and near losses not of faith but of what faith has become now that the object of sacrifice is not fit for the faint of heart because it is real. [on the right hand side:] When Comet Hyakutake streaked close to earth last week, a German scientific spacecraft made a discovery that has astonished and puzzled astrophysicists. The comet was emitting X-rays in a crescent pattern on its sunward side. (1) The dead, 13 adults and 3 small children, were found in a circle around the remains of a campfire, laid out on the bare ground in a sunburst pattern.(2) [all the sources are footnoted] This is the first page. The poem moves into a contemplation of global/ apocalyptic reality; there is an American sense of the steep folly & intense absurdity of religious enthusiasm yoked to an understanding of faith as a conceptual necessity. There is an underlining of sacrifice and mob violence at the roots of social organization which draws perhaps on the anthropology of Rene Girard. The news clips & funny/weird ritual/astronomical information give the poem a paradoxical realism. The poem's title refers to materials in painter Anselm Kiefer's massive "Angel of History", a sculpture-painting of a huge corroded bomber (now in the D.C. National Gallery) which expresses a parallel sense of apocalyptic/historical doom & pathos. Yet the poem ends on a note of survival-through-understanding which is the conceptual motor of the work's entirety. All and all, this reporter is energized by the poem's combined breadth of vision & concise, unpretentious style. I'd like to quote more but maybe somebody else will. Get ahold of this little gem of an atmospheric anomaly radar consternation. Oh, by the way - the Martians have landed in New Jersey. Stay tuned. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:35:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: Fridays' bk review (longish) just to second henry's (and pierre's earlier) positive appraisal of kristen prevallet's carefully constructed _lead, glass and poppy_ (washington dc: primitive publications, 1996)... well worth checking out!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:50:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: South African There was a friend of Tom Raworth's from South Africa at the New Hampshire conference -- does anyone know his name? Good to ghosts, Louis ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 16:53:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: South Africa And if you are on the list, hello! ghosted, l ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:04:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jeffrey W. Timmons" Subject: Univ of California TAs Set to Strike (fwd) Association of Graduate Student Employees (AGSE) Press Release Being Forwarded by National Association of Graduate-Professional Students ##### PRESS RELEASE November 6, 1996 Contact: AGSE (510) 549-3863 Grad Student Instructor Strike Dates Set Rolling Strikes Will Affect Multiple UC Campuses Berkeley, November 6--The executive board of the Association of Graduate Student Employees (AGSE/UAW) today announced the dates of a Graduate Student Instructor (GSI) strike on the Berkeley campus. The Berkeley union will join sister unions at other UC campuses in a series of coordinated actions across the University of California system, with GSIs at Berkeley beginning their three-day strike on Wednesday, November 20th. This follows a decision by The University of California, Los Angeles administration Monday to appeal a legal decision that found teaching assistants, readers and tutors have collective bargaining rights under state law. In response, union leadership at UCLA announced that the week of action would begin at their campus, with a five-day strike commencing November 18th. The coordinated actions will escalate throughout the week if the UC fails to implement the recent legal decision upholding collective bargaining rights for academic student employees. If the UC administration does not grant recognition by 5 p.m. on November 17th, Student Association of Graduate Employees (SAGE/UAW) members at UCLA will go on strike on November 18th. Thereafter, if the UC does not grant recognition by 5 p.m. on November 18th, members of the Association of Student Employees (ASE/UAW) at the University of California, San Diego will go on strike on November 19th. And if UC does not grant recognition by 5 p.m. on November 19th, AGSE/UAW members at Berkeley will join their sister unions with a GSI strike on the Berkeley campus (GSIs are also commonly known as teaching assistants or TAs). Actions on other UC campuses will also escalate pressure on the UC administration throughout the week. AGSE/UAW has been seeking collective bargaining rights for academic student employees (ASEs)-graduate student instructors, graduate student researchers, readers, tutors, and acting instructors-at UC Berkeley since 1983. Thus far, Berkeley administration has extended collective bargaining only to readers, tutors, and acting instructors. AGSE/UAW's members, along with members of AGSE/UAW's sister-unions at Los Angeles and San Diego, voted last spring to strike unless the UC administration granted recognition for ASEs. Last week, following the administration's failure to accept a settlement offer, AGSE membership voted overwhelmingly in favor of a motion to carry out a three-day strike as part of a system-wide action. In all, 10,000 out of 15,000 academic student employees system-wide have signed cards indicating their desire for union representation. A Public Employment Relations Board (PERB) judge ruled in September that GSIs, readers, and tutors at UCLA do have collective bargaining rights. AGSE/UAW members joined members of the other campus unions in disagreeing with the judge's finding that the university is not required to recognize the collective bargaining rights of research assistants. But the unions decided to accept the judge's interpretation of the current state law and called on the university administration to implement the decision. The university's failure to accept this offer prompted the union's October 30th decision to set the strike length at three days. "GSIs are responsible for 60 percent of undergraduate teaching. We don't want to cause any more disruption than is necessary to make the administration take us seriously," said AGSE/UAW president Lily Khadjavi. The UC administration has already spent millions of dollars in public funds on its legal efforts to resist collective bargaining for academic student employees, even though the administration acknowledges the right of most other UC employees to bargain collectively. Jim Freeman Financial Secretary *Please include a copy of this message in your reply for our reference.* ********************************************************* AGSE/UAW Local 2165 Phone: 510-549-3863 2372 Ellsworth Fax: 510-549-2514 Berkeley, CA 94704 e-mail: agse@netcom.com ********************************************************* FORWARDED BY *========================================================================* | >>>> The National Association of Graduate - Professional Students <<<< | | 825 Green Bay Road, Suite 270 PHONE: 847-256-1562 | | Wilmette, IL 60091 FAX: 847-256-8954 | | Toll Free 1-888-88-NAGPS * Email to: NAGPS@NETCOM.COM | *------------------------------------------------------------------------* | NAGPS 12th National Conference - New Orleans, Louisiana | | October 30 - November 2, 1997 | +-----------------------------------+------------------------------------+ | To access the NAGPS Internet Job Bank, send email to nagps@netcom.com | *-----------------------------------+------------------------------------* | #### WWW Site > http://www.nagps.org/NAGPS/ #### | *========================================================================* _____________________________________________________________________________ This message | Help on the lists nagps-help@nagps.varesearch.com sent using the | Subscribe/remove/etc. nagps-request@nagps.varesearch.com NAGPS E-mail | General talk list nagps-talk@nagps.varesearch.com Server | Reach NAGPS officers nagps-officers@nagps.varesearch.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:51:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: South African >There was a friend of Tom Raworth's from South Africa at the New Hampshire >conference -- does anyone know his name? >Good to ghosts, >Louis Hey, I was in South Africa at a writers' festival in July, and no one there said anything about being Tom's friend. In fact, I heard 6 writers say they would throw him into the Atlantic if he showed his face. That's what they said. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 00:21:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: South African bullwah george bowering. they said they'd throw YOU into the atlantic and you're just projecting again... honestly, after a couple of drinks, i hear you're offering dildos and a look at your french postcards to anyone, not to mention talk of etchings in your hotel room... e ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 05:46:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Comrade Bill >From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" >Subject: Re: Bettman archives > >Dear Listers, > >I feel somewhat silly putting this request out, but I'm unable to find the >whereabouts of the Bettman Archive. Thought it was in Baltimore. Does anyone >know which city it's in? >Please backchannel. Thanks. > >Patrick Pritchett >pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com > ---------------------------------------- Don't know about the physical location, but our boy, Bill Gates, has acquired the rights to digitize and "image" all of it. Ditto the complete works of Ansel Adams. (I'll begin to worry if he acquires the rights to Robert Frank and Nan Golden.) You might try technical support at Microsoft. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:10:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Tony Lopez Tony Lopez, who was mentioned positively in that (in)famous review of _Conductors of Chaos_ is on a shortish tour of the Canadian West & California. He read at the University of Calgary on November 6 & the University of Alberta on November 7. From what he said, the reading at U of C was very good, I can testify that the reading at U of A was terrific. There was an audience of over 40, mostly students in the poetry writing classes, most of whom have not come across the kind of new writing Tony represents. They listened very keenly to his reading, which was soft-spokenly intense, rhythmically varied, & wonderfully complex in its collage of discourses. Lopez read a number of shorter works, talked a bit about what he does, then read one long section from his ongoing work-in-progress, _False Memory_ (6 sections of which are published under that title by The Figures: a book to get now). This was simply a very fine reading, & a real eye-opener for the audience here. Lopez will be in British Columbia for the next week or so, then in LA & possibly at UC San Diego: if youre in the ares, check & see if you can catch him. Each section of _False Memory_ is made up of ten 14 line parts. Lopez seeks to mix & match various discourses for a complex political effect. Here's just the opening section of 'Brought Forward,' the section he read here: This is not the time to write as if you believe In a time of writing. Most authors view cell death As a landmark or end point for experiments With other goals in distantly related fields. So I would have it, letting the grass grow over As we wade ashore in a costume re-enactment Of the grand colonial adventure. We call it "First Landfall in Provincetown," after the event Unsettled by a cautious trading statement. Posing as messengers of an unknown nature With all our cameras running: a repeat, a sequel, Filming some years after _Apocalypse Now_. The comparison between Prozac and Ecstacy May well be misleadingand irresponsible. ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English 'The universe opens. I close. University of Alberta And open, just to surprise you.' Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 - Phyllis Webb H: 436 3320 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 08:22:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Comrade Bill >>From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" >>Subject: Re: Bettman archives >> >>Dear Listers, >> >>I feel somewhat silly putting this request out, but I'm unable to find >the >>whereabouts of the Bettman Archive. Thought it was in Baltimore. Does >anyone >>know which city it's in? >>Please backchannel. Thanks. >> >>Patrick Pritchett >>pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com >> >---------------------------------------- > >Don't know about the physical location, but our boy, Bill Gates, has >acquired the rights to digitize and "image" all of it. Ditto the >complete works of Ansel Adams. (I'll begin to worry if he acquires the >rights to Robert Frank and Nan Golden.) You might try technical >support at Microsoft. > >Ron Silliman Microsoft tech support would more clueless about this than usual (do they still have live DJs on the hold lines?) The Bettman & Adams stuff is handled by Corbis, Gates' other company. This one's being positioned to do big business in digital stock photos, but for now they're losing money big time. I haven't looked in a while, but there's a Web site that may be useful. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 09:28:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: John Kinsella As The Australian Council for the Arts has asked me to be the 'official' coordinator of John Kinsella's upcoming tour of the US & Canada, I thought it would be a good idea to let people on this list know about it. John sometimes posts here, so you will know the name. He is one of the finest younger Australian poets, with a startlingly wide range, & able to do the job in all the kinds of poetry he writes. Lyn Hejinian wrote quite correctly of his recent _Erratum/Frame(d)_ (in her Preface): It has often been remarked that John Kinsella has two bodies of work. His very recent volume, _The Silo: A Pastoral Symphony_ (one notes that its title foregrounds a musical analogy) can be cited as exemplary of a meditative, narrative mode of poetry, while the work collected here could be said to represent his interests in the 'experimental'. But the difference between the books is, in fact, an epistemological one -- a question of where what's known lies. And this, in turn, is a temporal question. _The Silo_ is a book of memory -- and inevitably, a book of landscapes, since it is in landscapes that the past is most clearly embodied in present forms. _Erratum/Frame(d)_ is a book of the present 'denying its geography, blurring genre.' I dont have the venues, except for the University of Calgary, University of Alberta, and University of Northern British Columbia, but Kinsella will be in Buffalo Nov 7; Burlington Nov 8-9; Boston Nov 13; Portland Nov 15; Newark Nov 21; San Francisco Nov 23; Newark (New York?) Nov 24; Edmonton Nov 26; Prince George Nov 28; Calgary Nov 29 (I got these dates & places from his itinerary, so the readings in some places may be a bit tentative). Look for announcements, & catch this fine young poet from Australia, made possible by a grant from The Australian Council for the Arts and the various host institutions. ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English 'The universe opens. I close. University of Alberta And open, just to surprise you.' Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 - Phyllis Webb H: 436 3320 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 11:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Comrade Bill Comments: To: Herb Levy Ron, Thanks. I found out they're in NYC. Which the 411 operators neglected to tell me. I guess Billy Boy won't rest till we've all been reduced to a gigabyte or so and stored away in a vault somewheres - like the CD-ROM "construct" in _Neuromancer_. _____ Herb, I'll check out that site. Thanks. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Herb Levy To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Re: Comrade Bill Date: Saturday, November 09, 1996 10:33AM >>From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" >>Subject: Re: Bettman archives >> >>Dear Listers, >> >>I feel somewhat silly putting this request out, but I'm unable to find >the >>whereabouts of the Bettman Archive. Thought it was in Baltimore. Does >anyone >>know which city it's in? >>Please backchannel. Thanks. >> >>Patrick Pritchett >>pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com >> >---------------------------------------- > >Don't know about the physical location, but our boy, Bill Gates, has >acquired the rights to digitize and "image" all of it. Ditto the >complete works of Ansel Adams. (I'll begin to worry if he acquires the >rights to Robert Frank and Nan Golden.) You might try technical >support at Microsoft. > >Ron Silliman Microsoft tech support would more clueless about this than usual (do they still have live DJs on the hold lines?) The Bettman & Adams stuff is handled by Corbis, Gates' other company. This one's being positioned to do big business in digital stock photos, but for now they're losing money big time. I haven't looked in a while, but there's a Web site that may be useful. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 10:37:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: Re: John Kinsella At 9:28 AM 11/9/96, Douglas Barbour wrote: >San Francisco Nov 23 Actually, John Kinsella is reading in San Francisco on November 22. Small Press Traffic is presenting him with Lyn Hejinian (at the New College Theater). Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:50:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Mario Savio (1943-96) Forwarded from the Marxist Literary Group list: >"There is a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, >makes you so SICK AT HEART, that you can't take part; and you've got to >put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, >upon all the apparatus and you've got to make it stop." >Mario Savo, spokesperson for the 1964 Berkeley Free Speech Movement, >died of heart failure on Wed., Nov. 6, near Sonoma State College in >Calf. where he taught math and philosophy. -=-=-=-=-=-= >Date: Fri, 8 Nov 96 01:31:12 -0500 >From: alan wald >To: csst-fac@umich.edu, mlg-ics@andrew.cmu.edu, sfrbc@cunyvm.cuny.edu, > ticktin@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu, awald@umich.edu, > BRENNER@histr.sscnet.ucla.edu, SWEISSMA@STMARYS-CA.EDU, > cfc@igc.apc.org, cesara@nyc.pipeline.com, crps@oregon.uoregon.edu >Subject: Mario Savio (1943-96) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 12:50:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: it ain't over till it ain't over Another query, please: I'm trying to track down the source of Faulkner's famous quote, which goes something like: "The past is never dead. It's not even the past." Nobel Prize speech? Or interview? Or what? I'm using it in a paper on Michelle Cliff's _Free Enterprise_. Thanks, Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 14:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Fridays' bk review (longish) Comments: To: Henry Gould Henry - Great review! And great excerpts from Kristen's book! I know there was a posting last week on how to get it, but my mail crashed and I lost it. Could someone please re-post that info? Thanks, Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ---------- From: Henry Gould To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Subject: Fridays' bk review (longish) Date: Friday, November 08, 1996 3:23PM Kristen Prevallet Lead, Glass and Poppy Washington DC: primitive publications, 1996 [WARNING: the Surgeon General has declared that pre-contextualization may be hazardous to your health & literary sensibilities.] Like Hesiod and Jimi Hendrix before her, Kristen Prevallet is fascinated with cosmic phenomena - asteroids, UFOs, the ends of the world(s). She brings to these interests a penetrating critical intelligence & a multifarious poetic talent. In this chapbook-length short-long poem, as in her previous work (see for example her longish poem "Mad Sarah" in Nedge #4) she manages a balancing act which is crucial to serious poetry, in my view: she pays full due to metaphysics and the religious sense & its human centrality - but counterweights it with a critical awareness of the fallibility (& tragicomic nonsense) of human mythical constructs. What results is a "poetic mythology" which is aware of the global predicament of the present - an historical-political-ecological awareness - infiltrated by a need for faith and its artistic embodiments. But don't let reviewistic portentousness obscure the reader's sense of the author's humor, wit & style. Her balance of faith/irony is mirrored in a genuine balance of style/material. Many are the poets on the one hand who pour out lugubrious documentary/personal rants; many on the other who are smothered in style: meaningless sound, arbitrary syntax, put-on artiness. Few like Prevallet manage to balance the logic of the theme with the form of the poem. This poem is structured in two columns, divided by the spine of the pamphlet (the "spine" itself becoming a Dantesque symbol of the cosmic-human book of life). On the left hand, the narrator speaks, in a voice which modulates between the oracular & the personal/ demotic. On the right hand, quotations, documentary evidence, which "comment" on the text (& vice versa). I can't replicate this format here, but will provide a couple of excerpts. The poem opens as follows: [on left side, lines flush to left margin:] Often there is a star comes down from the blue and lands in the deepest part where a heart and the flesh that beats it out in a trickle of daylight and ash does conspire to hold all flying things "sacred" as bombs and Eros collide with the same surface and mark their intent with an obliteration elemental as fire but not as blood-soaked-through with disasters and near losses not of faith but of what faith has become now that the object of sacrifice is not fit for the faint of heart because it is real. [on the right hand side:] When Comet Hyakutake streaked close to earth last week, a German scientific spacecraft made a discovery that has astonished and puzzled astrophysicists. The comet was emitting X-rays in a crescent pattern on its sunward side. (1) The dead, 13 adults and 3 small children, were found in a circle around the remains of a campfire, laid out on the bare ground in a sunburst pattern.(2) [all the sources are footnoted] This is the first page. The poem moves into a contemplation of global/ apocalyptic reality; there is an American sense of the steep folly & intense absurdity of religious enthusiasm yoked to an understanding of faith as a conceptual necessity. There is an underlining of sacrifice and mob violence at the roots of social organization which draws perhaps on the anthropology of Rene Girard. The news clips & funny/weird ritual/astronomical information give the poem a paradoxical realism. The poem's title refers to materials in painter Anselm Kiefer's massive "Angel of History", a sculpture-painting of a huge corroded bomber (now in the D.C. National Gallery) which expresses a parallel sense of apocalyptic/historical doom & pathos. Yet the poem ends on a note of survival-through-understanding which is the conceptual motor of the work's entirety. All and all, this reporter is energized by the poem's combined breadth of vision & concise, unpretentious style. I'd like to quote more but maybe somebody else will. Get ahold of this little gem of an atmospheric anomaly radar consternation. Oh, by the way - the Martians have landed in New Jersey. Stay tuned. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 15:18:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: lake sounds With the interest here in Sun Ra & other things musical, I thought people might want to know that Oliver Lake is on a tour, right now in the desert southwest here, doing solo concert, titled The Matador of 1st & 1st. I heard him last night here in Tucson, and it was marvelous. Sweet & hard & biting & funny & more, both musical & verbal. Not to be missed. charles alexander chax press chax@theriver.com ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 18:14:48 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: CAN-RW digest 263 (fwd) Many of you must know this already. But I send it for those who don't. gab. >From: Roy Rodriguez >Subject: Students Takeover Berkeley Tower (fwd) >La Voz de Berkeley Newswire >November 5, 1996 >*********************************************************************** >****For Immediate Release**** For Immediate Release**** >*********************************************************************** >UC BERKELEY STUDENTS CONTINUE TO OCCUPY CAMPANILE TOWER > >Berkeley- > Ten students at the University are currently occupying the >Campanile (Sather Tower) in response to California's passage of >Proposition 209. Following an afternoon of strongly supported rallies and >protests throughout Berkeley, students decided to take over the famous >University landmark. > Proposition 209, misleadingly titled the California Civil Rights >Inivtiative, with 54% of the voter's approval, became law today. In >effect, this amendment to the California Constitution outlaws long >standing policies, programs and initiatives which sought to ameliorate the >effects of the wide spread poverty, racism and gender bias which permeate >California institutions. As of today, Affirmative Action programs based >on race, ethnicity, gender or national origin are considered illegal. > Over a hundred students have gathered this evening to support the >occupation and to protect the doorways. Other students are recruiting >community members and students to the tower. Univerity officials have been >dispatched to address the students. > Standouts are gathering the necessary supplies for a lengthy >occupation. Some of the students are fasting as a means of spiritual >cleansing in preparation of the struggle ahead. Many are currently >organizing at the base for a new and fueled movement against the >implementation of Prop. 209. > Earlier this morning, the President of the nine-campus University >of California system sent out a directive of compliance to each >Chancellor. Included were instructions to no longer use race, ethnicity, >sex or national origin as one of the supplemental criteria used to select >admitted students from the pool of eligible students. > According to Jesus Mena, UC Berkeley spokesperson, "The University >of California at Berkeley is still very committed to diversity. However, >such an occupation is against University policy. We are concerned about >the students' well being." > Students believe that their action is only the beginning of a mass >movement to redirect the public. They don't need sympathy from the >administration. They, in fact, demand that the University administration >not comply with the provisions outlined by the new law. > The occupation is intended to go on until negotiations with the >University take place. For more information on the occupation, please >contact (510) 642-6672 or (510) 704-5560. > >UPDATE: Students continue to occupy the campanile tower at UC Berkeley. > It is now 3:00 AM, Thursday, November 7, 1996. The takeover will > be the focus of campus organizing in an effort to cultivate > future plans against the implementation of Prop. 209. > > About eighty students and community members are camping out on > the campanile tower to secure the occupation. Many are studying > by candlelight. > > Updates are on the way. > > Note: membership to the campanile_takeover listserve is > temporary. Please resond only to danields@uclink2.berkeley.edu > for more information. >*********************************************************************** >Message from the Tower..... > > The Campanile Tower is a symbol representing the University, and >the Ivory Tower of elitism and exclusionism. Our occupation defies the >passage of Proposition 209. Our occupation is an act of resistance and >reclamation. We will occupy the tower until our demands are met or >otherwise. In addition to our occupation we have made a commitment to >fast, in order to purify our bodies and strengthen our spirits. >Representation of people of color on the UC campuses will decline by 50 to >70 percent as a result of Proposition 209 being implemented. (figures from >the UC Office of the President) If the University decides to comply with >209 they will essentially be locking us out. This occupation represents >us taking back our right to education. > We are also occupying the Campanile, which stands on top of Ohlone >land, because inside the bones of these peoples are stored, our ancestors. >It seems that the University only wants our people when we are dead and >not when we are alive. We demand respect for the land and its peoples. >Our treaties have been broken and violated, and the genocide continues. > It is time for uprise, we are occupying the Campanile Tower in a >political and spiritual sense, the same was our people have always >defended and protected our land, human rights, respect, and dignity!!! >Listen to our demands and comply. The time is NOW! > > We as the UC BERKELEY CAMPUS COALITION OF STUDENTS AGAINST 209 >demand: > >1) We demand that the University of California NOT COMPLY with the >reactionary, regressive 209. > >2) We need to answer back to the lawmakers, to the captains of >finance, to the UC Regents, to Governor Pete Wilson, to the State of >California, and to the nation that THIS MUST STOP! > >3) We claim this campus as our own, as our property, as students at a >state university, as residents of California, we say no to exclusion, >removal, and forced exit of women and people of color. > >4) We demand that the electorate, which represents only a small >portion of all eligible voters in California, be accountable to all the >residents of California. > >5) We DEMAND funding for Education - Schools, NOT prisons, should be >a priority! What does it tell you that the prison industry is the fastest >growing California industry? > >6) We DEMAND that Chancellor Tien, and all the UC Chancellors openly >RESIST the implementation of Prop. 209. > >7) We DEMAND the end of the war on poor people. > >8) We DEMAND an Ethnic Studies requirement for all high school and >transfer students applicants. > >9) We DEMAND a firm commitment to promote diversity through existing >outreach programs. > >10) We DEMAND a say in who will succeed Chancellor Tien. > >11) We DEMAND increased student representation on the Board of Regents >of the University of California, with equal voting power as other members. > >12) We DEMAND a live TV and radio broadcast interview with student >coalition members. > >13) We DEMAND that all people in California realize the urgency in >attempting to form a just, society based in equality and reality - that >the only hope for the future of California in the upcoming millennium is >that all peoples receive equal opportunity, or the crumbling, smashing and >burning of an unjust, sexist and racist society. This is only the >beginning. > > If, we as AMERICANS plan together to live in one society, as a >unified body of people, all people need to be guaranteed civil rights. >Or...suffer the consequences of people uprising. IT WILL HAPPEN HERE! > >********************************************************************** >La Voz de Berkeley Newswire >http://server.berkeley.edu/MEChA/LaVoz.html >danields@uclink2.berkeley.edu >********************************************************************** > ------------------------------ End of CAN-RW Digest 263 ************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 23:24:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: John Kinsella At 09:28 AM 11/9/96 -0700, you wrote: >I dont have the venues, except for the University of Calgary, University of >Alberta, and University of Northern British Columbia, but Kinsella will be >in Buffalo Nov 7; Burlington Nov 8-9; Boston Nov 13; Portland Nov 15; >Newark Nov 21; San Francisco Nov 23; Newark (New York?) Nov 24; ... --- There is a Newark, California, down near the San Jose end of the SF Bay though it's never been much of a spot for poetry... ------------------------------------------------------ | Loss Glazier | ------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 19:01:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Polite Protests my **** (fwd) I jealous! Where on earth are we? gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 08:59:46 -1000 From: Vicky Smallman Wow, I was just handed a copy of the October 26 New York Times article on the Metro Days of Action, a huge political demonstration/general strike that we had here in Metro Toronto on October 22nd to 27th. I just had to post because the picture in the article is of the Education Rally that I helped organize! The week-long series of protests against the regressive policies of our neo-conservative provincial government, who are systematically dismantling our social safety net, was organized by a coalition of labour and social justice organizations, including the Canadian Federation of Students (the lobby group I'm chairing at the moment. Diss? What Diss?). The week culminated in a city-wide shutdown on Friday Oct 25 and a massive march and rally on October 26th. The shutdown was highly successful--we managed to shut down our public transit system (I'm still recovering from the 3am picket) in spite of threats of litigation and an injunction by the Toronto Transit Commission, as well as postal service, garbage and other municipal services, the food terminal, the provincial legislature and government offices and buildings. There were several rallies on Friday, including a large rally at the Toronto Stock Exchange and an even larger (20,000) rally at the Ministry of Education and Training (hosted by yours truly). It was a really exciting day--very festive spirit, despite the anger and frustration felt by many in this community. The Saturday march was incredible. Although there are conflicts over the numbers, well over 200,000 attended what was probably the largest political demonstration in Canadian history. I could go on, if you so desire. The NY Times article is quite goofy--it goes on about how odd it is that Canadians are standing up for themselves. I guess they forgot that this is the fifth in a series of rotating general strikes in Ontario.... Yes, it was peaceful. That's the point. The real violence is being committed by our provincial government, who have decimated our health care system, slashed welfare funding, closed women's shelters, hospitals and child care facilities, removed access to transit for persons with disabilities, laid off thousands of government employees, gutted labour legislation and our employment equity legislation, cut funding to education at all levels, hiked tuition 20%, eliminated child care bursaries for students---and given a 30% tax cut to their privileged golfing buddies. And they are certainly not done yet. Environmental deregulation, privatization of our health care and education systems, and other fun stuff is still on the way. This is an interesting place to live these days. While it was amazing to be part of such an historic protest, I certainly wish that it didn't have to be this way. Your own shameless agitator, Vicky Smallman mcmaster university / canadian federation of students ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Nov 1996 19:31:12 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: ANALYSIS OF THE U.S. POSITION ON THE DRAFT DECLARATION (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 8 Nov 1996 15:27:28 -1000 From: Julia Estrella I remember that your e-mail network was very extensive when you mailed me info about action alerts. Do you think you can send the following information to your network and ask each person to send to their respective networks? If everyone does so, we hope that this message can go in ripple effect form to at least a million people who will e-mail me back with permission to use their names for our petition. Here goes. Thanks. Julia Estrella One Million Signatures in Solidarity with the Okinawan People Nongovernmental organizations (NGO's) in Japan and the Okinawa Peace and Environmental Network (OPEN), based in Hawaii, request your name on this petition in support of the Okinawan People's desire for the removal of U.S. bases in Okinawa. As we receive the names, we will forward the signatures to President Clinton and Prime Minister Hashimoto and other appropriate governmental representatives of U.S. and Japan. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- WHEREAS, the rape of a 12 year old schoolgirl on September 4, 1995,by two U.S. marines based in Okinawa triggered the pent-up anger of Okinawans over thousands of crimes committed by U.S. military personnel over the past decade; WHEREAS, 89.89% of Okinawans wnt a reduction of U.S. military bases (Sept. 8, 1996 referendum); WHEREAS, Okinawa was forcibly annexed by Japan in 1879 and, as a colony of Japan, has been hosting a disporportionate share of U.S. military bases in Japan (i.e., 75% of the land which U.S. forces occupy in Japan is on Okinawa despite the fact that Okinawa represents only 0.6% of total land base of Japan); WHEREAS, the recent Japan Supreme Court ruling forcing Okinawa to submit to the government's forced lease of private land for U.S. bases indicates that Okinawa's property rights are worthless and is another example of Japan's mistreat- ment of Okinawans; WHEREAS, Pres. Clinton and Prime Minister Hashimoto of Japan met in September and talked about closing Futenma Air Base but only if another site can be found in Japan. Since no other site can be found, U.S./Japan are now planning for an offshore heliport in Okinawa which will further degrade the Okinawan bay environments; WHEREAS, Okinawa is the only place where even enemy soldiers are commemorated in its Peace Park: 14,000 U.S. soldiers, 90,000 Japanese soldiers; and 150,000 Okinawan civilians (approx. l/4 of entire population). Each name is engraved on peace walls. THEREFORE, WE THE UNDERSIGNED, REQUEST THE GOVERNMENTS OF THE UNITED STATES AND JAPAN TO HONOR THE WISHES OF THE OKINAWAN PEOPLE FOR REMOVAL OF U.S. BASES FROM ITS LAND AND SUPPORT OKINAWA BECOMING A MODEL OF ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND AND SELF-SUSTAINING TECHNOLOGY AND ECONOMY. **************************************************************************** *********** Please mail as many names to: OPEN, 1918 University Ave., Honolulu. HI 96822; or e-mail to tristar@pixi.com or FAX to (808)949-1210 or FAX to Toiko Furusho: 011-81-425-92-3806 (Japan) (Every name will be one more towards our goal of one million. THANK YOU.) Print Name Legibly Print Mailing Address/zip code/country Print E-mail address or Fax Number ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 11:38:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F.A. Templeton" Subject: SPD Please backchannel re an e-mail/net address for SPD. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 10:59:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: Re: John Kinsella In-Reply-To: John Kinsella will also be spending Nov. 14th here at the University of New Hampshire, giving a lecture on "Hybridity" at 12:30 p.m. and a reading at 5:00 p.m. The lecture will be in the Faculty Lounge of the English Department, Hamilton Smith Hall (all are welcome), and the reading will be in the Forum Room of Dimond Library (both buildings are just off Main Street in Durham; heart of the campus). If anyone on the line thinks they might make it, do let me know whether you'd enjoy coming along for drinks and dinner after the reading; you'd be welcome. Romana Huk (tel: 603 862 3992; fax: 603 862 3962) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 12:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Romana Christina Huk Subject: Re: South African In-Reply-To: <199611082150.QAA31208@dept.english.upenn.edu> That was John Higgins from South Africa; backchannel, Louis, if you want an address -- Romana On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Louis Cabri wrote: > There was a friend of Tom Raworth's from South Africa at the New Hampshire > conference -- does anyone know his name? > Good to ghosts, > Louis > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:37:47 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: John Kinsella As you are probably aware Australian Writing On Line puts out a monthly listing of Australian writing events both around Australia and internationally. I will be putting together a listing of John Kinsella's readings and uploading them to the AWOl website (under 'Happenings' 'late breaking news') during the next day or so. If you have any other Kinsella sightings please forward them to awol@ozemail.com.au and I will be happy to add them. Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:39:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: SPD Dear Fiona Templeton: The address you want is: Spd@igc.apc.org My usual contact there is Peter Dickison. Peter At 11:38 AM 11/10/96 +0000, you wrote: >Please backchannel re an e-mail/net address for SPD. Thanks. > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:41:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: OOOPS! Sorry everyone -- I forgot to backchannel! Woe is you. Stupid is me. Peter + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:09:30 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Flash Point Mark Scroggins, could you backchannel? Thanks. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 16:10:53 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: In Case of.. Would Mark Wallace please write me back channel? Thanks. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:32:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Olson stuff Alan-- way back around 85 oor 86, when I first moved to Tucson, Steve MacCaffery gave a wonderful talk on Olson, for a series of talks my (once and future) racketball pal Charles Alexander had put together. As I recall the piece not only looked at how Maximus wasn't all that neatly reducible to the pronouncements of "Projective Verse," but also attended to some crucial Olson valuations of writing (+) versus voice (-). As I (mis?) recall, Steve was claiming, therefore, some crucial and surprising affinities. I remember trying to bring up the Derrida stuff on a "good writing" which is, basically, a transparent transcription of a good speech, or of a language of gesture prior to (quasi-fallen) speech--I think I thought Steve was arguing that the praise of writing in Olson was to put it baldly anti-logocentric, and I think I was trying to suggest by contrast that there could be a praise of writing which nevertheless amounted to a praise of voice and speech. But at any rate the piece was a real awakener. Probably it's been pubished and everyone (but me) has read the published version. But if not maybe Steve (hello?!?) can provide some bibliographic info and/or say more? hellos to all mentioned (and unmentioned)! Tenney >Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:42:01 -0500 (EST) >From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU >To: Poetics List >Subject: Mor(e).on.mla > >Alan Golding >Prof. of English, Univ. of Louisville >502-852-6801; acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu > > >For my sins, I'm also speaking on an Olson panel, Mon. 12/30, 10:15, >symbolically numbered 666 in the program. I'm to talk about "Olson and >Language Writing. " This seemed like a real good idea at the time I committed >to do it, and it's one of those things (most of us probably have them) that I >always felt like I'd have to write on some day--the complex and conflicted >relationships between the poet who's meant about as much to me as any poet >I've read and later writers who also have meant and do mean a lot to me. So, >not surprisingly, I now feel like I have nothing to say. Or at least I want to >go beyond rehashing all the "I Hate Speech" stuff to address other aspects of >what Ron Silliman so nicely calls this "break within a tradition in the name >of its own higher values." > >I'd love to hear what any of you have to say on Olson and LP if you feel >inclined. Ideas for references, etc. (Someone else is "doing" Olson & Howe) > >------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Nov 1996 22:30:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: South African >honestly, after a couple of drinks, i hear you're offering dildos and >a look at your french postcards to anyone, not to mention talk of >etchings in your hotel room... >e Yeah, but here's the difference between me and Tom Raworth. He might SHOW you some etchings in his room, but you come to my room, and I MAKE some etchings. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:56:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Re: Olson stuff In-Reply-To: <2.2.16.19961110223544.3ce7c340@pop.azstarnet.com> Alan, I hadn't thought of this when you said Olson and Language pomes, but Tenney N's post reminded me of Joe Riddel's terrific essay, "Decentering the Image: The 'Project' of 'American' Poetics?" It's in Harari's Textual Strategies. Tough going in places, because he's weaving so many traditions together in it, but the piece has some very useful insights into Olson. It's a shame Joe never did a book on Olson, because he was great on him in class. Here's a typical bit: "Like Pound, Olson appeals to the archeological metaphor, but the archeologist does not presume to recuperate presence. Rather, in his re-search of method, he seeks that cutting edge, the 'way' to cut a path and not some path to follow. He seeks the disruptive, productive tool of writing." Looking over it, I'm struck by how much of Riddel's poetics is stitched together here. Odd to say, I hear his voice in these lines. He was always digging around like this with his words, with a gleam in his eyes. Well, hope that's useful, Alan--see you in D.C. By the way, the panel on "Poetry in the Curriculum" (Alan's other panel, where he'll be appearing, as he said, along with Bob Perelman) also includes Harriet Davidson (on poetry as witness) and Kevin Dettmar (on the pedagogical uses of poetry hoaxes). Hope to meet some of you there. Jonathan Levin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 08:10:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Olson stuff j levin writes: > Alan, > > I hadn't thought of this when you said Olson and Language pomes, but > Tenney N's post reminded me of Joe Riddel's terrific essay, "Decentering > the Image: The 'Project' of 'American' Poetics?" It's in Harari's Textual > Strategies. Tough going in places, because he's weaving so many > traditions together in it, but the piece has some very useful insights > into Olson. It's a shame Joe never did a book on Olson, because he was > great on him in class. Here's a typical bit: "Like Pound, Olson appeals > to the archeological metaphor, but the archeologist does not presume to > recuperate presence. Rather, in his re-search of method, he seeks that > cutting edge, the 'way' to cut a path and not some path to follow. He > seeks the disruptive, productive tool of writing." now this passage reminds me of that section of derrida's "the writing lesson," where he talks of the path cut thru the jungle by ITT for making telegraph lines...that this is a form (if i read him right) of writing, as is the design on tribal pottery that predates the arrival of the European. of course, in pound, olson and ITT, there is, in addition to the excitement of the pathfinder, more than a hint of imperialism? > > By the way, the panel on "Poetry in the Curriculum" (Alan's other panel, > where he'll be appearing, as he said, along with Bob Perelman) also > includes Harriet Davidson (on poetry as witness) and Kevin Dettmar (on the > pedagogical uses of poetry hoaxes). Hope to meet some of you there. i hope to get to this one tho as i've sd i'll be trapped in a search committee; i'm still trying to circulate my concept of "micropoetries" as a pedagogical instrument; joe harrington, how did your assignment go? md > > Jonathan Levin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:32:43 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: In Case of.. since we've had a number of requests for individual e-addresses lately, its worth reminding that you can get a copy the names & addresses of all Poetics list subscribers by sending a message to: listserve@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu with the single line in the body: review poetics its always interesting to me to see who-all is listening, besides being useful... luigi ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:03:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Hilton Subject: Kristin Prevallet's "Lead Glass and Poppy" Comments: cc: pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com A big thanks to Henry for his wonderful review of Kristin's book, and for Joe and Pierre's comments as well. Kristin's work makes you feel and think at the same time -- no small feat. For those who requested it, here is information again on how to order this and other primitive chapbooks: primitive publications produces approximately six chapbooks a year, focusing on present-day writing based on historical text, language or subject. Cost of one chapbook is $4.00, or $20.00 for a subscription of six. Other titles include: The History of the State May Last, 1616, by Mary Hilton The Haunted Baronet, by Mark Wallace All checks may be made payable to Mary Hilton and mailed to: primitive publications c/o Mary Hilton 1706 U Street, NW, #102 Washington, DC 20009 e-mail: mhilton@tia.org *or* 74463.1505@compuserve.com Inquires, submissions or requests to be included on the mailing list are welcome. Thank you. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:42:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: In Case of.. Comments: To: au462@cleveland.Freenet.Edu In message <199611111432.JAA26913@owl.INS.CWRU.Edu> Robert Drake writes: > since we've had a number of requests for individual e-addresses > lately, its worth reminding that you can get a copy the names & > addresses of all Poetics list subscribers by sending a message to: > > listserve@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu > > with the single line in the body: > > review poetics > > its always interesting to me to see who-all is listening, besides > being useful... > > luigi yes indeed; one member of my department told me he is monitoring my posts and is "keeping a file" on me. --md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 10:07:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: The not Ye Dear Poetics List: I thought this was interesting enough to forward from a book arts list to this poetics list. Language history, and the history of letter forms as well as some of their complications, may be one thing that unites these two lists. all best, charles alexander >Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 09:10:30 +0000 >Reply-To: J.S.Farley@lib.hull.ac.uk >Sender: "The Book Arts: binding, typography, collecting" > >From: "J.S.FARLEY" >Subject: The not Ye >X-To: Ron Koster >To: Multiple recipients of list BOOK_ARTS-L > > >Wes thu Ron hal! (see below) > >Sorry, Its a bit long >I hope the following pics work out.... > > >The Anglo-Saxon Alphabet consisted of the following: > >A B C D E F G H I L M N O P R S T U W X Y > >I think THE NAME "OEs" is correct but I am not sure > > >Ash was the a-e dipthong and was pronounced 'a' as in "Ash" > > >Eth was a 'd' with a line through it, and constituted the hard "Zth" >sound : > > > * > * ***** > ******* * * > * * * > **** ******* * > * * * * > * * * * > **** ***** > > >Oes was the o-e dipthong and was pronounced 'o' as in "Ox" > > >Thorn (A carry over from the Runic form of writing) was pronounced "th" >as in "Thing": > > > * ** *** > * * ** ** > **** ** ** > * * ** ** > * * ** ** > **** ** ** > * ** **** > * *** (sorry this is the best I can do for the Cap) > ** > ** > ** > ** > >As we progressed into the middle ages, the capital thorn began to look >more and more like a 'Y' with the top joined up, until the generally >illiterate typesetters (who could not appreciate the phonetic difference >confused the two) could not tell the difference, thus producing some books >with "Ye" instead of "e". > >'S' was drawn two ways: > > *** *** > * * * > * *** > * * > * *** > > >'W' was sometimes drawn: > > > **** > * * > * * > * * > * * > ** > * > * > * (again from the runic) > >The runic 'W' was dropped about the time printing came along because of >its being confused with 'P' > >There was no 'Q', this sound was produced by combining 'C' and 'W' >thus "Queen" was "Cwen" > >the "SH" sound was spelt "SC", thus "Scyld Sceving" in Beowulf should be >pronounced "Shuld Sheeving" > >'Y' had a sound like the "U" in the French "Tu", so could not be used to >pronounce "Yee" > >'G' had two sounds, the hard 'G' of "Gun" and the 'y' sound of "Year" > >------ > >That's about it for the letters. > >The Anglo-Saxons worked in threes, they had three Genders: Masculine, >Feminine and Neuter, but more fascinating is that they had three defined >quantities: one, two and lots. So: > >the A-S greeting "Be complete" was dependant upon the quantity: > >Wes thu hal = Be you complete > >Wes Git hal = Be the two of you complete > >Wes Ge hal = Be all of you complete (this is the nearest to "ye" and was > pronounced more like "Yay") > >This eventually became confusing to the Viking settlers, and so it was >reduced to "Wes hal" from where we get Wassailing, an the ritual of >"Wassailing the apple trees". > > > >I think thats it, hope it is of use. > >Jon > > ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 12:25:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Holman Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 9 Nov 1996 to 10 Nov 1996 Dear Poets, Call for poems with "science" "theme" for posting on OMNI magazine's Web site in January. Send your own, or turn me on to your favorites. Sonnet-length or under (so much for the "infinite possibilities" of the internet -- seems like 200 words and non-scrolling is the rule) -- "Science themes" include philosophical glass of water musings, hard-edged global tectonic theories, and the answer to which way the fossil footprints on the Bering Straits point. Billed as a Slam, it will be non-competitive. Pay is 50 bucks. The OMNI site is heavily trafficked; poems will be up for a month. A photo and bio will eventually be needed. Write Now! Deadline is Nov. 22. Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:20:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: OMNI web bob, could you post the url for the OMNI mag web site? thanks, eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:44:58 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: In Case of.. >he is monitoring my posts and is >"keeping a file" on me. must be an ed sanders fan... lbd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 14:16:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Good Lake / Bad Lake In-Reply-To: <199611092218.PAA10678@pantano.theriver.com> Does anyone know the route of Oliver Lake's tour? He seems to be slowly working this direction -- but will he apopear anywhere near Denver or Boulder? Would love to see him again -- That's a form of new formalism I can endorse -- AND -- I see in the paper that Roscoe Mitchell's landmark _Sound_ is being reissued on CD -- It's a must -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:26:25 +0000 Reply-To: dmachlin@flotsam.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Dan Machlin Subject: Re: John Kinsella Reading in New York City As an addition to Douglas Barbour's welcome note on John Kinsella the other day I just wanted to remind that he will be reading with our own Charles Bernstein at The Segue Performance Space in NYC on Sunday, November 17. The Segue info again on the reading is: JOHN KINSELLA, CHARLES BERNSTEIN Sunday, November 17th, 7:00 p.m., Suggested $5.00 The Segue Performance Space 303 East 8th Street (Betw Aves B&C) (212) 674-0199 F train to 2nd Ave, L train to 14th and 1st, 6 train to Astor Place Beer & Wine available for donation. Here's a quote from a recent review of Kinsella's book Syzygy (Fremantle Arts Centre Press). The review is by Tim Liardet and was published in Poetry Wales. Syzygy is among those books collected in Kinsella's recently released The Undertow; New and Selected Poems (ARC 1996). Kinsella's work has been praised by such diverse sources as Lyn Hejinian and Harold Bloom. Here's from the Liardet review: "Syzygy is certainly not ordinary. It is a forty-four page opus of strangely fragmentary individual pieces (with titles such as 'Reality'; 'Entropy/Flesh'; and 'The forest, the farm, a hybrid bathysphere') which against all the odds come together to form a remarkable, incoherent but cohesive whole...which begins in closely-wrought density, gradually sheds its inner tensions in the process of becoming broken-up and rarified, like the passage into the ether. This is clearly a poem -- or sequence of poems -- which understands and seeks to encapsulate the dislocation and the contrariety of consciousness; consciousness of itself being arbitrary and formless. The last four pages of the work offer as much the white space of silence as they do the little islands of poetic gossip. The precise voluptuary language of the opening: ...O fear ripples evading sonar buoys Blue Gum Lake receding as bores suck effluent from beneath the arses of ducks yields by degrees to the idiosyncratic fragments of the ending. This is a big poem, at times exquisitely worked, a very personal odyssey which just manages to prevent itself from degenerating into tricksiness in its progress towards its own denouement." Please join us for what promises to be a great reading on the 17th, his only New York reading. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 15:55:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Good Lake / Bad Lake At 02:16 PM 11/11/96 -0800, you wrote: >Does anyone know the route of Oliver Lake's tour? He seems to be slowly >working this direction -- but will he apopear anywhere near Denver or >Boulder? Would love to see him again -- I don't know the route, but I believe a co-sponsor of the tour is the Western States Arts Foundation, and you might contact them in Santa Fe, or see if jazz presenting groups in your area who might be connected to them -- and that would be probably any jazz presenting groups -- are bringing Oliver there. The Tucson Jazz Society brought him to Tucson. >That's a form of new formalism I can endorse -- me, too >AND -- I see in the paper that Roscoe Mitchell's landmark _Sound_ is >being reissued on CD -- It's a must -- Thank you for the information. Mitchell did a tour a couple of years ago, solo on many different reed instruments, and seeing him was an absolute highlight of my music listening life. charles ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:58:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: OMNI web also, could you post the address one sends poems _to_! hey, fifty bucks is fifty bucks! e ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 17:00:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: great book on the university... those of you who are interested in (north american) 'higher' ed. and want to read something that'll likely put a serious twist in your take on same, check out _the university in ruins_ by bill readings oxford up: 1996 readings (a canadian) died in a plane crash in 1994 before his book was published... it's one of the most fascinating -- and accurate -- analyses of the contemporary university i've come across... briefly, readings describes the transformation of the university from a cultural institution to an institution that participates in the emerging transnational corporate structure... his is not a marxist analysis---he carefully disengages from the customary use of terms like "ideology" and the like... his gist is that the idea of culture was intimately tied to that of the nation-state, and that in the demise of the latter it is futile for the university to be criticized for not being sufficiently cultural (the critique from the right), just as it is futile to expect the institutionalization of cultural studies and multiculturalism to yield sufficiently radical transformation (the platform of the left) when in fact these latter are being incorporated into the system... where he goes as a result i won't attempt to summarize---and i'm not suggesting the book is not without its problems, though it's provocative as hell (and historically buttressed throughout)... his concluding chapters deal explicitly with teaching and community... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 21:08:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: not-home meanwhile back not-home, here's some of what's happening -- Pierre: IRAN: CONTINUED ARRESTS INSPIRE FEAR AMONG WRITERS Continued arrests and several suspicious deaths of writers inspire fear among writers in Iran today, reports the Writers in Prison Committee (WiPC) of International PEN in an anniversary action. The action marks a year after Iranian translator Ahmad Miralai was found dead. After reportedly being detained by security forces on 24 October 1995 and taken to a hotel for questioning, Miralai's body was found with injection marks on it. A half empty bottle and cigarettes near the body led to suspicions that attempts were made to make it appear that Miralai, who had given up drinking, had been drinking in order to discredit him. Miralai was one of the 134 writers who signed a petition in October 1994 calling for greater freedom of expression. He had reportedly been called in for interrogation by security forces at least 20 times. Miralai is not the only writer to die in suspicious circumstances in Iran in recent years, says WiPC, recalling that writer Ali- Akbar Saidi Sirjani died in prison on 27 November 1994 after being detained by agents of the Anti-Vice Department of the Revolutionary Prosecutor's Office on 14 March 1994 in Tehran. Similar accusations of drug and alcohol use were made against him as well. In recent months, the harassment of writers has increased. State television has broadcast a programme denouncing writers in Iran and abroad called "The Identity", which presents allegations against writers and intellectuals. "Writers fear the programme is preparing the ground for further arrests," says WiPC, noting that "some writers have reportedly been approached by the security forces and threatened that aspects of their private lives will be exposed if they speak out about issues related to censorship." In August, security agents interrupted a dinner at the German cultural attache's house, where they reportedly separated Iranian writers from the other guests and filmed them. WiPC says, "A climate of fear reigns among writers in Iran." In the last two months, writers have been prevented from travelling abroad. Others were briefly detained in Tehran and taken to Evin prison after a meeting to discuss the re-formation of a writers' association. The writers "were reportedly warned not to hold further meetings or publish the writers' association charter." Iranian authorities have banned the books of Iranian writers living abroad and their publishers have reportedly been threatened. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Nov 1996 23:52:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Killian Subject: San Francisco Events this week that I know about This is Kevin Killian. Hi everyone. Hope you're in San Francisco this week. Let me tell you about some events I know about here this week. =46irst of course I hope you can come to *my* reading, it'll be great, at Modern Times Bookstore on Thursday at 7:30. Modern Times is at 888 Valencia Street. I'm reading with Linda Smukler who's here from upstate New York reading from her new book "Home in Three Days. Don't Wash" (Hard Press). Hooray for Linda and too bad for me, *my* book was supposed to be ready by now but it's been delayed a week or so. More about this *epochal* event later when I have the book in my hands. Okay, so, see you on Thursday! On Friday you already know about the "Premonitions" event at Small Press Traffic at 7:30 at New College (777 Valencia). You already know that Walter K. Lew. the editor of "Premonitions" will be here, together with Bay Area contributors Myung Mi Kim, Celine Salazar Parrenas and Ronald Tanaka. But luckily a 4th contributor has stepped forward to add to the lineup: Oakland's Patricia Ikeda-Nash, author of the now out-of-print volume of poems _House of Wood, House of Salt_ and other wonderful works, such as the "Zen Laundry" excerpt from her memoir-in-progress about life in Korean Buddhist monasteries, published in _Muae 1_. So don't miss this reading! Then on Sunday, November 17th, the long awaited "Queer Beats Conference" takes place at the Lecture Hall of the San Francisco Art Institute. This conference was organized by Bruce Boone, Bob Gluck, Jonathan Katz, Aaron Shurin and . . . me! It's presented by the Harvey Milk Institute in conjunction with several other co-sponsors, including the Poetry Center at SF State. It's an all-day conference from 10:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. Here's the phone number for more information (415) 552-7200. But I can give you a rundown of what to expect, oh, and it costs $15-$20. 10:30 a.m., introductory remarks by Jonathan Katz. Then "Beat Erotics" panel moderated by Aaron Shurin, with Bruce Boone, Earl Jackson, Jr., Lenore Kandel and Steve Silberman. 12:30--1:30 lunch. Then at 1:30 another panel, I think it's called "Queer Identity" with Michael Davidson, Mark Ewert and Ricardo Ortiz, moderated by . . . me! Then at 3:00 p.m. "Beat Circles" panel with Maria Damon, Harold Norse and Scott Watson, moderated by Bob Gluck. I don't have the synopses of these talks in front of me but I remember some of them... Steve Silberman (yes, the famous authority on Jerry Garcia and the Dead) will be speaking about Philip Whalen and his first book of poetry, published quickly, then suppressed due to its high homoerotic quotient. Bruce Boone will be talking about dirt. Lenore Kandel will be making a rare appearance I think to talk about the censorship of her book "The Love Book" and I hope to talk about making "Lucifer Rising" with Kenneth Anger. She is fantastic and a living legend and hardly ever seen, ever! I don't know what Earl's talking about but he teaches at UC Santa Cruz and has written a great book "Strategies of Deviance: Studies in Gay Male Representation." He and Bruce are the high theory guys on THAT panel. On the second panel Michael Davidson will speak on . . . . ??? I forget! But I'm sure it's something brilliant about the Cold War. Mark Ewert, a young writer and filmmaker, will speak about his intimate relations with octogenarian William S. Burroughs. Ricardo Ortiz will discuss John Rechy and why/how he was systematically excluded from cultural histories of the Beat movement. The final panel stars our own Maria Damon from the poetics list=8Bshe will talk about Bob Kaufman and gay influence, etc., I think; Harold Norse, another living legend from the original Beat Circles of New York, Tangier, Paris and London; and Scott Watson, a curator from UBC who will present slides of paintings and other graphic work created by 50's/60's artists whom, for one reason or another, mostly homophobic ones, were excluded from the Whitney's "Beat Culture and the New America" show now playing in San Francisco . . . Charming event. Hope to see you all on Thursday, Friday and Sunday. More later and excuse the long bandwidth of this message... or is it wide bandwidth? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:49:21 +0000 Reply-To: William.Northcutt@uni-bayreuth.de Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: William Northcutt Organization: btr0x1.hrz.uni-bayreuth.de Subject: yep Reznikoff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:56:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Ear Inn Reading Report Nov 9 Drew Gardner band was fast and furious fri night at knitting factory downstairs get ready it's called the Alterknit. Dug is mad at the knitting factory because they charge seven dollars to some even late into the set. Trio of boys bass drum high sax they're all on brain pep i think. A good round of poets in the audience too: Julie Patton, Andy Levy, Leonard Schwatz, Heather Ramsdell, Garrett Kalleberg, Dan Farrell come to sophies bar with us, Prageeta Sharma, Daria, Lee Ann Brown, Daria tells about channeling energy up & down spine chi gong joon bong shows Lee Ann top of head spot, Marlene Hennesey, Marcy, Shari, EleniS & Laird Hunt. Steve Dalchinsky whom dug says he sees EVERY time he is at a jazz or new music event slips in & out. At end of set we ask for more and knitting factory man says a short one. The Drew Gardner band does a short one. we go back to sophies in car and talk about sex. i recite basting my lover poem and marlene is grossed out by basting. couldn't you make that a little more poetic? dug says it doesn't get any more poetic. dug & marlene and i sit on ledge in front window of sophies. dug distraught about love & psychoanalysis. puts cigarette in mouth so points straight down talks like his dad. Douglas, the best thing I ever did was marry your mother. dug then goes on & on about mom, never anything good enough for her. he was ignored and reprimanded for sweeping the porch wrong. claims now he wants to fail and but he's even a failure at failing. we talk about juliana spahr's new book response. reading response is like watching ophra on ecstasy with the shrink you've always wanted. i tell story of how recognizing boy in car of myself. went for a drive to the beach with my black doggie but stop at gary's first to smoke some pot. leave black doggie in car. black doggie very unhappy left alone in car. o i left in car by dad going to bar. i have car dreams driving backward very fast while i in back. i cry & go to beach with black doggie. i say from reading juliana's book i learn why i obsessed with cars. This is good I think because I have to go into Rob Fitterman's class on Wed to talk about poetry. I'll read Creeley i know a man, my trip to nyc & stress dug's car poem & and talk about cars and family early on in peoples' lives. then leaving family and getting new family of poets. car carries over cause we journey. Next day is saturday, ear day, and I have placed two tapes inside jacket so I don't forget. Dug calls and wants me to pick him up on the service road just before Brooklyn Bridge. I not ready and always have to wait for dug so Dug buzz me. He buzzes, I hop out of shower and he comes up. He opens windows because he's hot. It's freezing I say. Drive to ear over Brooklyn Bridge and down FDR around the horn of lower manhattan, best way to west side. On way up West Street I tell dug last week during the construction I see a diamond sign that says People Working. He thinks that's weird. People are still working but People Working sign is not. At ear folks are there. I setup tape recorder and mic and James Sherry is having a discussion with George about speakers in the bar room. They haven't been working in bar room or George doesn't want them to be working in bar room. I tell James it's not an issue. I like only having speakers on in back room then people who don't want to hear poetry can sit in bar room and won't have to talk loud over speakers if they working. James writes Call Martin in orange crayon on his paper table cloth. James wants to know what happens if big crowd comes. I say that not an issue for my series. Sitting in the back room are Jordan Davis, Stephen Malmude, Ange Mlinko, Edwin Torres, Larry Fagin, Lee Ann Brown, Dan Luft, Mary Ann Vitale, Drew Gardner, David Cameron, Douglass Rothschild, Joe Elliot, Brenda Coultas, Dan & Elizabeth the couple who come to every reading but no one knows who they are he has big mustache she writes poems. i ask her if she likes her poems and she says some of them make her happy. Chris Stroffolino comes in tells me how to introduce Ange (with Mick Jagger song) and talks about the trials of getting his review essay of Moxley's new book published too long for a review too short for an essay. Others sit too. Jordan shows me 100 NZ poems and opens to Wynstan Curnow. A good poem in there and Jordan says Wynstan is 60. Laura Ranger tho is the best selling poet in NZ and she 8. James is eager to start and I give Ange the 5 sign. She is introduced, I have taken Chris' advice and Lairball is agitated. She reads with passion and good poems take us over. We hear words from Immediate Orgy & Audit her Lift chapbook and Mass Ave Dan Bouchard's mag. She reads Lush Life and I can't remember where that's been published. I want to see it in print so I don't have to transcribe and screw up the line breaks. Some arms do never fully close like u turns to full stops seem reckless personalities and branch endlessly out like bell twirlers stroking shoulder straps dropped like dreck beside the coffee stirrer. Such a beat to the past tangles tonite's drummer to touch there a handrail a danger. . . . . . . To not just be girls under treaty like others we know but sisters with secrets under the cover. Ange also reads a new poem called Driving with You: This is such a lovely place to be the blind spot of a truck a cup tipped against your face as you eat the ice loudly where bridges mixed with the angel wings of crossed fingers built under supervision of children from gifted classes and always in life I hear the woosh in my side a door ajar at great speeds more lemonade please . . . Ange reads lots of good ones. Pop Song is wow as is City Story as is this she says it's from the chapbook. YOU DRINK from the window the liquor's transparent I don't take exception to a garbage truck on garbage day Just tell me how I should pay you to slide in, to funnel up, to light the torch or ring the bell among the clockworks Drink your tea & don't get high like an organ Yes I finish the pot because each successive cup's steeped deeper lest I pour myself out my reincarnation at age 25 will not be replete with all the wisdom available to be troubled None of the passersby am I or are me all marriages dissolved today by decree is my lion's rage at slow entropy. Some fragrant steak cooks in my presence It's Arabic here were they to insist I wear a veil it would be a dream should I agree There is a short break and I inventory the people & collect three dollars from each. A guy is at the bar with some friends and I ask if he's here for the reading. Not really, he's here to meet some friends. Are you John Byrum I say. He's John Byrum he says. James again gives the signal to start and I give Edwin the 2 sign. At the mic I give announcements and then yell at John Byrum. John Byrum I say give me a potato! John Byrum I want a potato! Edwin reads very well with a lot of performatives. I've forgotten how sexy he is. His fingers are very long and they move like octopus tentacles as he rustles thru pages between poems. He reads A Fairy Tale for IE. Wherein O wants to be IE be come popular like sticky skinny letters are thingy letters be all the rage now O the rage now wishes it weren't so round so large if O bees unconnected could straighten out to better letter possible popular better letter I or E O we out to active oplecticism O O intowoctaveklokdoctism I O E O oc dockokokclockdoc kloke oke si si si O O O O O O Who needs I or E to be with O so pretty so O become fat in its Oness swelling ump in pumpularito thick in its O fame beliefing in its own empty space O become oral oppears overywhere or getting its original order to Oself to unO to be more Ilike less Olike shows to go you Be happy where you O lest you I yourself to E Edwin likes it that we like his poems. He reads the one about the comet whose name he has trouble saying and I spelling. Kahoutek Kahoutek, I can barely pronounce you I love you. What are you but some comet streaking the sky every 80 years driving us crazy with apprehension. Gonna see you gonna miss you too dark wrong position. I love you and all your confusion more confusing than any lover maybe not. What are you but some crazy streak flashing in and out of my heart. You never call me you never see me you big beautiful ball of fire. You drive me crazy coming then going. I wish we were together so I could break up with you. I wish we were but I can't wait that long. There are so many good ones from Edwin because he can speak and command an audience like Jackson. The Begin of Maybe Where does maybe is my M ism I had I had time maybe I been had been handed hadisms been through wicked wickeds been time to to have a a time to maybe mine maybe sick sick this was body had me a time this body had me in time I had seen and I am is my ism had kept on I had kept this body at bay a bad badness I had I was wicked sick with bad when will sick wicked withave me will time have what i have when had time had me and maybe let me body body was was had was I her body was I her body After the reading I say come next week for Drew Gardner & Chuck Stein. James says nice combo. I shut down the system and give the poets their cab fares. Edwin sells all his Lung Poetry & I hear things people haven't really said chapbooks. We go to brothers. Jordan comes in and tells Larry to behave himself. Douglass comes in and says he's been talking to John Byrum about post modernism for two hours. Ange plays with her wedding ring and it falls off. She goes under the table to get it. We go to Puffys and talk about blow job poems. Lee Ann tells us about snow cones. I bet the ice melts pretty fast. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:49:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: shapiro okay, this one's easy: what's the title and bibliographical info for that poem by karl shapiro that ends, "so small i could have drowned it with a tear"?--md ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:55:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: snowsnowsnow... luigi-bob and others, how you making out with that lake effect?... looks wicked bad, esp. for pre-turkey day... joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:21:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1996 to 3 Nov 1996 Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU For those who wish to actually READ the website before they submit their (science bent) poem, chck out OMNI at http://www.omnimag.com/ If it meets yr ok, send appropriate and/or oblique submissions to me at nuyopoman@aol.com. Reiterating: 4 sonnet-length poems with "science" "themes" will be posted on Omni for themonth of Jan. Accepted poems pay $50. Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 10:00:37 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Felix Subject: ALIVE! Ronald Johnson Reading Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Tomorrow, Wed Nov 13 @ 12:00 noon, Ronald Johnson will be reading from *Ark* and whatever else he cares to at the University of Illinois-Chicago's Rathskeller Hall, thanks to the efforts of LVNG magazine. All systems are go, the airplane in Topeka is idling on the runway, and the frigid skys over Chicago await... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:58:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: NEW ADDRESS FOR POETICS LIST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is an important letter I have been asked to pass on, written by the administrators of the listservs at SUNY-Buffalo: Dear List Subscriber, We hope you are aware that we are in the process of migrating our IBM-based LISTSERV lists (@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu) to our new Unix-based LISTSERV machine (@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu). We have been testing this and making plans for quite a while now so that this migration will be as painless as possible and transparent for you and us. So, what does this mean to you? 1) The address for your list will change from poetics@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu to poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu 2) The address for sending list maintenance commands (sub, unsub, index, review, set, etc.) will change from listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu 3) You may only interact with listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu via email. So, if you have been using an interactive command to interact with listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu (such as: SENDFILE, TELL, LSVPUT, SEND, SEND/FILE, etc.), you will now have to send all commands in the body of an email message. My online List User documents already use the email interface in the examples (http://writing.upenn.edu/computing/listserv/user/). **** ALSO NOTE: questions about the list should now be sent to poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu (not poetics@ubvms as before). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:27:51 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: John Kinsella's US tour (forwarded) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:10:37 +1000 >To: awol@ozemail.com.au >From: awol@ozemail.com.au (awol) >Subject: AWOL: John Kinsella's US tour > >John Kinsella's US tour > >John will be reading in the following cities > >Boston Nov 13; > >Nov 14 the University of New Hampshire. John Kinsella will give a lecture >on "Hybridity" at 12:30 p.m. and a reading at 5:00 p.m. The lecture will >be in the Faculty Lounge of the English Department, Hamilton Smith Hall >(all are welcome), and the reading will be in the Forum Room of Dimond >Library (both buildings are just off Main Street in Durham; heart of the >campus). Contact Romana Huk (tel: 603 862 3992; fax: 603 862 3962 email >rch@HOPPER.UNH.EDU) Therre may be drinks and dinner after the reading. > >Portland Nov 15; > >New York Nov 17 JOHN KINSELLA & CHARLES BERNSTEIN The Segue Performance Space >303 East 8th Street (Betw Aves B&C) (212) 674-0199, F train to 2nd Ave, L >train to 14th and 1st, 6 train to Astor Place Beer & Wine available for >donation. Suggested $5.00. > >Newark Nov 21; > >San Francisco Nov 22 Small Press Traffic is presenting John Kinsella with >Lyn Hejinian at the New College Theater. Further details email >dbkk@SIRIUS.COM > >Newark Nov 24; > >Edmonton Nov 26; > >Prince George Nov 28; > >Calgary Nov 29 > > This informationis available on the AWOL website under 'Late breaking news'. Any additional infomration about venues and/or extra readings will be added as we get it. > > > > > > >AWOL >Australian Writing On Line >awol@ozemail.com.au >http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol >PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia >Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 >Fax 61 2 7472802 > > > > Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:07:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: NEW ADDRESS FOR POETICS LIST Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" that announcement didn't mention, when does the new address go into effect? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 20:43:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: NEW ADDRESS FOR POETICS LIST In-Reply-To: <199611130124.UAA06598@shell.acmenet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Eryque Gleason wrote: > that announcement didn't mention, when does the new address go into effect? > it did, eryque, check the header ======================================================================= Pierre Joris | "Poetic knowledge...is the knowledge of finitude, Dept. of English | of words and things that happen once and SUNY Albany | once only, measurable but not repeatable, the Albany NY 12222 | intuitions of _nonstatistical_ probabilities tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | that are _creative_, not merely re-creative email: | (or recreational)." -- Don Byrd joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:48:18 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wystan Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: Ear Inn Reading Report Nov 9 Comments: To: Maz881@AOL.COM, POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Hey Bill, So great to get mentioned in despatches, but tell Jordan he's exaggerated my age somewhat, I'm only 57 (only 57!) and not a grey hair and the name's Wystan not Wynstan ( Capilano Review made the same mistake) but I'm glad your liked the pome. It's true what they say about Laura's being the best-selling poet, and it has to be said we are very supportive of young talent in this country ( most poets' sales peak around age 10) but you grow out of selling your stuff--I believe I've given away more books than she has. Last time I was at the Ear it was to hear Kathleen Fraser and Corine Robbins. Nancy Spero was there in the audience, also Charles and Susan, Nick ( Piombino ), Jackson , and James. I can't remember any of the lines. Afterwards we went to SoHo (Greene St), maybe Corine's loft for some food. It was wet and I was jet lagged. Best, Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:22:25 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: John Kinsella in Boston Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone know where John Kinsella is reading in Boston. I've had a couple of enquiries but my contact at the Australia Council doesn't know. Back channel me if you like, but could you also send a copy to awol@ozemail.com.au many thanks Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 00:40:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: NEW ADDRESS FOR POETICS LIST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" that's what i get for using a fancy mailer and turning off the header! >On Tue, 12 Nov 1996, Eryque Gleason wrote: > >> that announcement didn't mention, when does the new address go into effect? >> > >it did, eryque, check the header > > >======================================================================= >Pierre Joris | "Poetic knowledge...is the knowledge of finitude, >Dept. of English | of words and things that happen once and >SUNY Albany | once only, measurable but not repeatable, the >Albany NY 12222 | intuitions of _nonstatistical_ probabilities >tel&fax:(518) 426 0433 | that are _creative_, not merely re-creative > email: | (or recreational)." -- Don Byrd >joris@cnsunix.albany.edu| >======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 07:08:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Curtis J Leitz Subject: broughton and gleason papers Comments: To: poetics list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anybody know where the Broughton papers are, and if there are any collections of Madeline Gleason's papers beyond what is at USF and the SF State Poetry Center? I'm still trying to track down any info i can on Madeline Gleason. Backchannels enthusiastically accepted! Curt Leitz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:46:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: NEW ADDRESS FOR LISTSERVE Comments: To: poetics list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I may be mistaken, not being an e-mail expert, but it looks to me like the date that the poetics address was changing over was not listed for people who receive the poetics list on digest. Am I missing something? Or can the date of the change be repeated? Mark Wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:11:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: call for help; russian verse From: MX%"ebs@ebbs.english.vt.edu" 12-NOV-1996 22:47:41.67 To: MX%"driver@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU" CC: Subj: FWD: information?? Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 16:51:36 -0500 (EST) Reply-To: ebs@ebbs.english.vt.edu Precedence: bulk From: JOLIVER@CENTER.COLGATE.EDU To: driver@PACEVM.DAC.PACE.EDU Subject: FWD: information?? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-VMS-To: IN%"driver@pacevm.dac.pace.edu" X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN Anyone out there know the answer to this one? All best, Martha ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- From: CENTER::SCERASANO 12-NOV-1996 15:59 To: JOLIVER CC: Subj: information?? From: CENTER::RSYLVESTER 12-NOV-1996 12:50:11.77 To: JOLIVER CC: Subj: Does anyone know this poem? Martha - reply to me, Judy if you have a clue. Anyone in the early book society have any ideas? Dear Friends, Forgive the mass mailing, but I am wondering if you have any clues on the poem below, or know of any newsgroups where I might post this question? I'd be most grateful for any ideas you might have about it, or whom to ask about it. Thanks, Dick I am trying to find the original of the poem below, which I give in a translation from Russian. The Russian poet, Aleksey Pleshcheev, produced this text in 1877 "from the English, by an anonymous poet". Tchaikovsky used Pleshcheev's text for his song called "Legend", opus 54 no 5. I am collecting and translating all Tchaikovsky's songs, and would like to find the English original if possible. It has never been identified by Russian scholars. Here is a plain translation of the Russian text: The Christ-child had a garden, He grew many roses in it; Thrice a day he watered them To weave a garland of roses for himself. And when the roses bloomed, He summoned the Hebrew children; They each picked a flower And the garden was left bare. Q"How wilt thou weave a garland now? The roses in thy garden are all gone!" Q"Don't forget,"QChrist answered themQ "The thorns are all still left for me." And so they wove him A prickly garland from the thorns, And drops of blood, instead of roses, Adorned his head. *** Has anyone ever seen anything like this in English Q or Scottish Q hymnals, or popular collections of religious verse, perhaps for children? I would be grateful for any help on this. /s/ Richard Sylvester Professor of Russian, Colgate University rsylvester@center.colgate.edu P. S. The Q letter in the text of the poem is a goof. This is an "em-dash", a long dash, which doesn't print in the e-mail set of 128 characters. Sorry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:29:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: NEW LIST ADDRESS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry, folks, please ignore my previous message if it reached the list, as well as this one--I've figured the new situation out. My apologies for wasting everyone's time. mark wallace ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:11:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LPHILLIPS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: John Kinsella in Boston MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Please don't backchannel about the John Kinsella reading in Boston; the rest of us who are here would also like to know when and where. Thanks. Lisa Amber Phillips ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:51:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Jim Carroll Comments: To: POETICS MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Does anyone happen to know the name of the cafe near or at St. Mark's Place where Jim Carroll used to read? A free drink (for me) hangs in the balance... Backchannel, please. Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:34:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: A Free Drink in the Archives In-Reply-To: <01IBSKU8NT8YHV3EGH@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Pat -- I've been noting the presence of the Bettman Archive in the list at the end of each night's episode of _The Great War_ on PBS -- and wondering what you plan to do once you find the archives ??? Hope you get that free drink -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 08:32:18 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Child labour (fwd) Comments: To: poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:22:14 -1000 From: Aaron This story from the bourgeois press does not, naturally, suggest how to do away with this exploitation of children. That's up to us! [I have only used quotes before the original header lines, to make it easier to read the body of the original post.] --Aaron >Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:57:52 -0800 >Sender: Forum on Labor in the Global Economy >From: D Shniad >Subject: Child labour >To: Multiple recipients of list LABOR-L The Saskatoon StarPhoenix November 12, 1996 250 MILLION CHILDREN IN LABOR FORCE: ILO GENEVA (AP) - From the brothels of Asia to the carpet factories of Pakistan, nearly twice as many children are working full time in developing countries as previously thought, the International Labor Organization said Monday. The latest calculations from the UN labor agency show that 250 million five-to-14-year-olds are employed, half of them full time. That's up sharply from earlier estimates of 73 million full-time child workers. The new figures come after in-depth surveys and interviews in numerous countries. Previous estimates were based almost solely on official statistics. The ILO report found nearly 153 million children are working in Asia, 80 million in Africa and 17.5 million in Latin America. It called for a new international accord banning the harshest forms of child labor: slavery, prostitution and work in hazardous industries. Only 49 UN members ratified a 1976 child labor convention. Some nations said its limits on paid work were too broad. ILO Director General Michel Hansenne said child labor only perpetuates an endless cycle of illiteracy and poverty. "We all know that . . . many efforts over the years will be required to eliminate it completely," he said. "But there are some forms which are intolerable by any standard. These deserve to be identified, exposed and eradicated without further delay." Slavery or child bondage still is practised in South Asia, Southeast Asia and West Africa, the report said. Children are either sold outright or rural families are paid in advance by "contractors" who take children away to work in carpet weaving, glass manufacturing or prostitution. Child trafficking for the sex industry is increasing despite better international awareness of the problem, the ILO said. In Asia, child prostitutes number about one million and rising, the report said. Numbers also are increasing in Burkina Faso, the Ivory Coast, Ghana, Kenya, Zambia and Zimbabwe. It identified international sex networks that take Latin American children to Europe and the Middle East, and Southern Asian children to northern Europe and the Middle East. Child sex markets also were well established in West Africa, Europe and the Arab world, it said. Among other things, the ILO found that: =99 Certain industries are exposing their child workers to pesticide poisoning, lung diseases or even crippling their growing bodies by forcing them to carry heavy weights. =99 In Sri Lanka, more children die from pesticide poisoning than from a combination of other childhood diseases such as malaria, tetanus and whooping cough. =99 Children are exposed to dust and fumes in repair shops, woodwork factories and construction sites in Egypt, the Philippines and Turkey. =99 In glass factories, children are often forced to drag loads of molte= n glass from glowing furnaces amid noise levels that could cause deafness. Children as young as three were working in match factories where they were exposed to dust, asbestos and other hazardous fumes. =99 Up to five million child domestic servants work in Indonesia, including 400,000 in the capital, Jakarta. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 13:58:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM Subject: Re: Child labour (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 15:22:14 -1000 From: Aaron This story from the bourgeois press does not, naturally, suggest how to do away with this exploitation of children. That's up to us! --Aaron ______________ Gab, what does Aaron suggest? daniel_bouchard@hmco.com _______________ >Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 11:57:52 -0800 >Sender: Forum on Labor in the Global Economy >From: D Shniad >Subject: Child labour >To: Multiple recipients of list LABOR-L The Saskatoon StarPhoenix November 12, 1996 250 MILLION CHILDREN IN LABOR FORCE: ILO GENEVA (AP) - From the brothels of Asia to the carpet factories of Pakistan, nearly twice as many children are working full time in developing countries as previously thought, the International Labor Organization said Monday. The latest calculations from the UN labor agency show that 250 million five-to-14-year-olds are employed, half of them full time. That's up sharply from earlier estimates of 73 million full-time child workers. The new figures come after in-depth surveys and interviews in numerous countries. Previous estimates were based almost solely on official statistics. The ILO report found nearly 153 million children are working in Asia, 80 million in Africa and 17.5 million in Latin America. It called for a new international accord banning the harshest forms of child labor: slavery, prostitution and work in hazardous industries. Only 49 UN members ratified a 1976 child labor convention. Some nations said its limits on paid work were too broad. ILO Director General Michel Hansenne said child labor only perpetuates an endless cycle of illiteracy and poverty. "We all know that . . . many efforts over the years will be required to eliminate it completely," he said. "But there are some forms which are intolerable by any standard. These deserve to be identified, exposed and eradicated without further delay." Slavery or child bondage still is practised in South Asia, Southeast Asia and West Africa, the report said. Children are either sold outright or rural families are paid in advance by "contractors" who take children away to work in carpet weaving, glass manufacturing or prostitution. Child trafficking for the sex industry is increasing despite better international awareness of the problem, the ILO said. In Asia, child prostitutes number about one million and rising, the report said. Numbers also are increasing in Burkina Faso, the Ivory Coast, Ghana, Kenya, Zambia and Zimbabwe. It identified international sex networks that take Latin American children to Europe and the Middle East, and Southern Asian children to northern Europe and the Middle East. Child sex markets also were well established in West Africa, Europe and the Arab world, it said. Among other things, the ILO found that: ? Certain industries are exposing their child workers to pesticide poisoning, lung diseases or even crippling their growing bodies by forcing them to carry heavy weights. ? In Sri Lanka, more children die from pesticide poisoning than from a combination of other childhood diseases such as malaria, tetanus and whooping cough. ? Children are exposed to dust and fumes in repair shops, woodwork factories and construction sites in Egypt, the Philippines and Turkey. ? In glass factories, children are often forced to drag loads of molten glass from glowing furnaces amid noise levels that could cause deafness. Children as young as three were working in match factories where they were exposed to dust, asbestos and other hazardous fumes. ? Up to five million child domestic servants work in Indonesia, including 400,000 in the capital, Jakarta. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 15:23:57 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM Subject: C-NEWS: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain I wonder what poets Kim Holmes admires. And why. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com To: can-peace @ pencil.math.missouri.edu (Multiple recipients of list) @ SMTPIN cc: (bcc: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco) From: rcowan @ lesley.edu (Rich Cowan) @ SMTPIN Date: 11/13/96 11:53:12 AM Subject: C-NEWS: here's a position paper from the Heritage Foundation. Challenge the Lies. -rc NEW FOREIGN POLICY CREDO: BE PREPARED By Kim Holmes The Heritage Foundation October 24, 1996 The 1996 election campaign has been conspicuously quiet on foreign policy. Both major presidential candidates, catering to a post-Cold War public glad to be rid of the constant nuclear threat from the Soviet Union, have avoided the subject, thinking they were following the prudent political course. I disagree: Leadership requires more than merely reflecting the momentary concerns of the electorate. It requires not just talking about what people say they are concerned about, but also pointing out what they ought to be concerned about. And they ought to be concerned about foreign policy. The truth is that the United States is handling foreign policy challenges like Iraq, Bosnia, North Korea and Haiti on an ad hoc basis -- without adequate contingency plans already in place when trouble strikes. What this means is that it is only a matter of time before America is caught unprepared and becomes unnecessarily involved in another war or some other international crisis. In the post-Cold War era, the United States has failed to set clear and meaningful criteria for action, stick to those criteria, and effectively communicate them to friends and enemies alike so other nations can predict how we will respond in a given situation. Without such guidelines, friends are left not knowing whether they can count on us, enemies are encouraged to test the waters to see what they can get away with, and our military is involved in matters best handled by other countries or by international social workers. The White House should be formulating its plans for dealing with possible foreign policy crises now -- based on a clear understanding of U.S. interests and capabilities to shape events -- not after events start spinning out of control. Here is a "top-10 list," if you will, of worst-case foreign-policy scenarios the White House should be prepared to deal with should they arise, arranged in order from least to most likely: Scenario #10 Civil war in Russia divides control of Russia's nuclear forces between various political and military factions. Based on false information that the United States is about to intervene militarily, a rogue commander authorizes a nuclear attack on the United States or U.S. forces in Europe. Unlikely, to be sure, but not impossible; Scenario #9 Next year, China decides to turn up the heat on Taiwan by establishing a naval blockade of that island nation or threatening a ballistic missile attack; Scenario #8 Iran tries to close down the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf, bottling up some 20 percent of the world's oil supplies, or helps topple the monarchy in Saudi Arabia; Scenario #7 An Iraqi-backed terrorist group attacks U.S. troops in Kuwait with biological weapons -- anthrax spores, for example -- killing hundreds of American soldiers. However, no one takes credit and no one is sure who did it; Scenario #6 Russia threatens the Baltic states -- Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia -- with military action in response to NATO's decision to include Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary in the alliance; Scenario #5 Boris Yeltsin dies and new Russian elections result in the rise of an unpredictable, anti-Western president like Alexander Lebed. Or Yeltsin doesn't die, but becomes incapacitated, setting off a dangerous succession struggle in the Kremlin that destabilizes Russia; Scenario #4 Saddam Hussein shoots down a U.S. plane in the newly expanded no-fly zone in Northern Iraq and takes its pilot hostage; Scenario #3 North Korea decides to go down fighting, invades the South, overruns most of the 37,000 U.S. troops along the demilitarized zone, and reduces most of Seoul to rubble; Scenario #2 China decides to crack down on Hong Kong next year after the former British colony reverts to Beijing's rule; Scenario #1 U.S. troops stay in Bosnia past the promised December deadline for withdrawal, and dissatisfied groups decide to eject the Americans by force, or radical Moslem terrorists launch attacks on remaining U.S. troops. Does the administration have contingency plans in place should any of the above scenarios arise? To judge from its conduct so far on the world stage, it is highly improbable. No administration, Republican or Democrat, should operate in the foreign policy arena without clearly understanding how America's interests would best be served in such crisis scenarios. Unless U.S. policy-makers are prepared to act with determined vision in the post-Cold War world, they place America at risk. Note: This essay by Kim Holmes, Ph.D., Heritage Foundation vice president and director of foreign and defense policy studies, is adapted from "Restoring American Leadership," 1996, The Heritage Foundation, 288 pages. ------- To subscribe to c-news, send the message SUBSCRIBE C-NEWS, or the message UNSUBSCRIBE C-NEWS to unsubscribe, to majordomo@world.std.com. Contact owner-c-news@world.std.com if you have questions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 10:15:49 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Re: Child labour (fwd) In-Reply-To: <199611131859.NAA28606@krypton.hmco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Daniel. He hasn't suggested anything, so far. You could write and ask him. gab. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 16:28:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Blau DuPlessis Organization: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Subject: Anne Waldman reading Well, in case you ddn't get it by my intrepid manipulations of both sender and subject, Anne Waldman will give one of her bravura performance readings at Temple University on Thursday, 21 November, at 8:00. It's free, and at our NEW reading space, the Temple Gallerynow located at 45 North 2nd Street, and that, folks, i)4|s in PHILADELPHIA. Hurry on by, if you can. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 18:10:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Anne Waldman reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and she will be reading here in albany tomorrow (thursday) in the great big page hall on western avenue. starts at 8 p.m., but i'd get there well before that unless you like the cheap seats (which are just as free as the others). off the top of my head, i don't know what bravura means, but i'm sure both readings will be a hoot. eryque >Well, in case you ddn't get it by my intrepid manipulations of both sender >and subject, Anne Waldman will give one of her bravura performance readings >at Temple University on Thursday, 21 November, at 8:00. It's free, and at >our NEW reading space, the Temple Gallerynow located at 45 North 2nd Street, >and that, folks, i)4|s in PHILADELPHIA. Hurry on by, if you can. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 17:10:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: C-NEWS: Comments: To: Daniel_Bouchard MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Offhand, I'd say she/he admires poets who always know what they're going to say next and why, and moreover, are prepared to back it up with force if necessary. ---------- From: Daniel_Bouchard To: POETICS Subject: C-NEWS: Date: Wednesday, November 13, 1996 2:42PM I wonder what poets Kim Holmes admires. And why. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com To: can-peace @ pencil.math.missouri.edu (Multiple recipients of list) @ SMTPIN cc: (bcc: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco) From: rcowan @ lesley.edu (Rich Cowan) @ SMTPIN Date: 11/13/96 11:53:12 AM Subject: C-NEWS: here's a position paper from the Heritage Foundation. Challenge the Lies. -rc NEW FOREIGN POLICY CREDO: BE PREPARED By Kim Holmes The Heritage Foundation October 24, 1996 The 1996 election campaign has been conspicuously quiet on foreign policy. Both major presidential candidates, catering to a post-Cold War public glad to be rid of the constant nuclear threat from the Soviet Union, have avoided the subject, thinking they were following the prudent political course. I disagree: Leadership requires more than merely reflecting the momentary concerns of the electorate. It requires not just talking about what people say they are concerned about, but also pointing out what they ought to be concerned about. And they ought to be concerned about foreign policy. The truth is that the United States is handling foreign policy challenges like Iraq, Bosnia, North Korea and Haiti on an ad hoc basis -- without adequate contingency plans already in place when trouble strikes. What this means is that it is only a matter of time before America is caught unprepared and becomes unnecessarily involved in another war or some other international crisis. In the post-Cold War era, the United States has failed to set clear and meaningful criteria for action, stick to those criteria, and effectively communicate them to friends and enemies alike so other nations can predict how we will respond in a given situation. Without such guidelines, friends are left not knowing whether they can count on us, enemies are encouraged to test the waters to see what they can get away with, and our military is involved in matters best handled by other countries or by international social workers. The White House should be formulating its plans for dealing with possible foreign policy crises now -- based on a clear understanding of U.S. interests and capabilities to shape events -- not after events start spinning out of control. Here is a "top-10 list," if you will, of worst-case foreign-policy scenarios the White House should be prepared to deal with should they arise, arranged in order from least to most likely: Scenario #10 Civil war in Russia divides control of Russia's nuclear forces between various political and military factions. Based on false information that the United States is about to intervene militarily, a rogue commander authorizes a nuclear attack on the United States or U.S. forces in Europe. Unlikely, to be sure, but not impossible; Scenario #9 Next year, China decides to turn up the heat on Taiwan by establishing a naval blockade of that island nation or threatening a ballistic missile attack; Scenario #8 Iran tries to close down the Strait of Hormuz in the Persian Gulf, bottling up some 20 percent of the world's oil supplies, or helps topple the monarchy in Saudi Arabia; Scenario #7 An Iraqi-backed terrorist group attacks U.S. troops in Kuwait with biological weapons -- anthrax spores, for example -- killing hundreds of American soldiers. However, no one takes credit and no one is sure who did it; Scenario #6 Russia threatens the Baltic states -- Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia -- with military action in response to NATO's decision to include Poland, the Czech Republic and Hungary in the alliance; Scenario #5 Boris Yeltsin dies and new Russian elections result in the rise of an unpredictable, anti-Western president like Alexander Lebed. Or Yeltsin doesn't die, but becomes incapacitated, setting off a dangerous succession struggle in the Kremlin that destabilizes Russia; Scenario #4 Saddam Hussein shoots down a U.S. plane in the newly expanded no-fly zone in Northern Iraq and takes its pilot hostage; Scenario #3 North Korea decides to go down fighting, invades the South, overruns most of the 37,000 U.S. troops along the demilitarized zone, and reduces most of Seoul to rubble; Scenario #2 China decides to crack down on Hong Kong next year after the former British colony reverts to Beijing's rule; Scenario #1 U.S. troops stay in Bosnia past the promised December deadline for withdrawal, and dissatisfied groups decide to eject the Americans by force, or radical Moslem terrorists launch attacks on remaining U.S. troops. Does the administration have contingency plans in place should any of the above scenarios arise? To judge from its conduct so far on the world stage, it is highly improbable. No administration, Republican or Democrat, should operate in the foreign policy arena without clearly understanding how America's interests would best be served in such crisis scenarios. Unless U.S. policy-makers are prepared to act with determined vision in the post-Cold War world, they place America at risk. Note: This essay by Kim Holmes, Ph.D., Heritage Foundation vice president and director of foreign and defense policy studies, is adapted from "Restoring American Leadership," 1996, The Heritage Foundation, 288 pages. ------- To subscribe to c-news, send the message SUBSCRIBE C-NEWS, or the message UNSUBSCRIBE C-NEWS to unsubscribe, to majordomo@world.std.com. Contact owner-c-news@world.std.com if you have questions. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 22:17:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: armand schwerner Subject: Re: welcome message Comments: To: UB Poetics discussion group Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Rev. 9-28-96 >____________________________________________________________________ > >I've tried again and again and again to get you to send me a digest. If >you're unable to do this, I must quit the list. I cannot live with the >endless stream of individual messages every day. Please: >digest........now........ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 11:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: A Free Drink in the Archives Comments: To: "Aldon L. Nielsen" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks, Aldon. So do I. Actually, now that I've found the archives, I also find I don't need them. Didn't realize they were strictly a photo archive. BTW: they now answer the phone as "Corbis-Bettman." The project I'm working on is the one I mentioned to you: the TriStar film about Matthew Henson & Robert Peary. The writer, Robert Schenkkan, has given me a list of incidents in Henson's life to corroborate. There's some problem in obtaining the rights to a book and TriStar is trying an end run. The owner of the rights, I'm told, is a real eccentric - some kind of Luddite who insists on signing for Fedex packages by dipping his cat's paw in ink. A job for ASPCA? Anyway, negotiations, as they say, are stalled. Would you happen to know if Howard has any kind of archival material on Henson? Or would anyone else out there? I know this ain't exactly Poetics, but I'm stuck and would appreciate any leads. Backchannel, by all means. I don't want to clutter the List with my lostness. Frozen (but not in the Chosin), Patrick Pritchett pritchpa@silverplume.iix.com ---------- From: Aldon L. Nielsen To: POETICS Subject: Re: A Free Drink in the Archives Date: Wednesday, November 13, 1996 11:01AM Pat -- I've been noting the presence of the Bettman Archive in the list at the end of each night's episode of _The Great War_ on PBS -- and wondering what you plan to do once you find the archives ??? Hope you get that free drink -- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 01:29:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: call for help; russian verse In-Reply-To: <199611140505.AAA02486@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" >Subject: call for help; russian verse Burt: Tell your prof pal to contact Igor Satanowski and Inna Mattei of _Koja_. Both are Russian editors and translators who specialize in Russian poetry. You can reach Igor at the following address: Isat@aol.com. As for Inna, I'll her address by tomorrow. KOJA 7314 21 Avenue Apt 6E Brooklyn, NY 11204 All the best, Rob Hardin PS: Their inaugural issue contains work by Eileen Myles, Richard Kostelanetz, Raymond Federman, and several new Russian poets of whom I've never heard. The emphasis is on language play; Inna in particular has a remarkable sense of rhythm and an ear for linguistic puns, as in her poem "Citadelic." =A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7= =A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7= =A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7=A7 PPS: to the guy who asked for list help (how to set options, such as receiving the digest rather than individual mail): write to the following address (NOT the one you reply to) and type help in the subject window. I receive the digest and this is how my options look: Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 00:46:54 -0500 =46rom: "L-Soft list server at UBVM (1.8b)" Subject: file: list * UB Poetics discussion group * * Review=3D Public * Subscription=3D Open,Confirm * Send=3D Private * Notify=3D Yes * Reply-to=3D List,Respect * Files=3D No * Validate=3D No * Stats=3D Normal,Private * Notebook=3D Yes, * Mail-Via=3D Distribute * Ack=3D No * Default-Options=3D Repro * Confidential=3D Yes * Owner=3D poetics@ubvms.cc.buffalo.edu (Charles Bernstein) http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 03:54:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: Re: calls for help: correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To the guy who asked for list help (how to set options, such as receiving the digest rather than individual mail): Wrong: write to the following address (NOT the one you reply to) and type help in the subject window. I receive the digest and this is how my options look: Correction: write to the following address (NOT the one you reply to) and type help in the MESSAGE BODY. The address once again: LISTSERV@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu All the best, Scrypt http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:54:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: infra-verbal poetry? Bob Grumman in the recent Poetics Briefs refers to "infra-verbal" poetry as a new development. Can anyone enlighten me as to what this is? Is this the same as "spoken word"? Thanks - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:09:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Charles Olson I forgot to mention in my last post that I also need permission to quote from some unpublished Charles Olson letters. I've written to Storrs and strangely have not heard back, but in any case I presume I'll need the Olson estate's permission beyond that of the archive's. Can anyone assist with this? Thanks again, Burt kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 12:11:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Kevin Young / Janice Lowe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ronight at 7 p.m. at Toetry Sity 5 Inion Cq V 7/< Ff MYC Tonight at 7 p.m. at Poetry City 5 Union Sq W 7th Fl NYC Kevin Young and Janice Lowe two members of the Dark Room Collective will be reading their poetry. Kevin's first book _Most Way Home_ will be available in paperback. The reading is free, we'll have wine and food, all we ask is that you buy one of the many books (by John Wieners, Alice Notley, Ron Padgett, Samuel R. Delany, Ben Friedlander, Steve Carll, Maria Damon, Etheridge Knight, Gary Lenhart, Tim Davis and many others) that we have on display. The reading starts at 7 or so and people hang out afterwards until about 9. No pressure, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 18:03:51 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F.A. Templeton" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 10 Nov 1996 to 11 Nov 1996 Comments: To: UB Poetics discussion group In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To Alan Golding: Kathleen Fraser gave an interesting paper on Olson at this fall's conference at the University of New Hampshire. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:44:56 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: UK STRIKE (fwd) Comments: To: poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another message from the ukers strikers. gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 12:36:11 -1000 From: Judy Evans My thanks for publicizing this. The home page -- http://www.aut.org.uk/ -- has an option for sympathizers to email our employers. It would help if as many people as possible could do that. --------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Evans + Politics + jae2@york.ac.uk using voice-recognition software: please ignore editing errors --------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:52:21 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: call for papers (fwd) Comments: To: poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 08:07:13 -1000 From: Richard King Reply-To: postcolonial@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU To: moderator Subject: call for papers Please post. Despite the much celebrated emergence of postcolonial studies and the curre= nt academic interest in colonialism and culture, the cultural and colonial = contours of the contemporary United States remain understudied. Indeed, po= stcolonial theory is largely Eurocentric and as a result has neglected colo= nialism and culture in the United States. At the same time, recent efforts= to push discussions of empire and everyday life in American culture beyond= the analyses afforded by cultural imperialism and internal colonialism hav= e had an overly historical cast, denying in effect the continuing imprint o= f imperial idioms in the contemporary United States. In an effort to explo= re the ways in which (post)coloniality clarifies and problematizes, legitim= ates and undermines intersects and articulates with sociocultural formation= s in the United States, I have initiated an edited collection on postcoloni= al America. I have received an advance contract, but hope before it goes t= o press to enhance it. The volume addresses postcoloniality and/in America= n culture by studying the material conditions, discursive formations, socia= l relations, and cultural patterns of the United States. Although individu= al contributions to the volume do not speak with one voice, they all proble= matize common understandings of postcolonialism and America by using postco= lonial theory to make sense of and reinterpret aspects of American empire a= nd/or using aspects of American empire to make sense of and reinterpret pos= tcolonial theory. The contributors share, moreover, in a common project to= decenter dominant understandings of 'the American experience'. =20 I am seeking papers of 20-30 pages which address postcolonialism and/in Ame= rican culture. These should be original works, unpublished elsewhere. Imp= ortantly, the schedule for revisions is tight, as the manuscript needs to b= e returned to the publisher in late spring. The substantive focus of prosp= ective papers is open, but pieces using examining the identities, experienc= es, and/or imaginaries of African Americans, Latinos, Asian Americans, and = EuroAmericans in light of postcolonial theories and themes or rethinking th= e meaning of American empire in transnational terms are especially welcome.= Similarly, the theoretical perspectives of prospective contributors is no= t predetermined; current frameworks include postcolonial, poststructural, n= eo-marxist, psychoanalytic, feminist, and interpretive. I would be happy t= o corespond with interest scholars via email. Richard King Richard_King@qmbridge.drake.edu --- from list postcolonial@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:22:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Sleight of Foot Comments: cc: Ric Caddel , John Cayley , cris cheek , Diana Collecott , Arts Council Lit Dept , Allen Fisher , Robert Hampson , Romana Huk , Ira Lightman , Tony Lopez , Rupert Loydell , Peter Middleton , Robin Purves <9448721P@ARTS.GLA.AC.UK>, Alaric Sumner , Fiona Templeton , Scott Thurston REALITY STREET EDITIONS presents a reading to launch the first in the 4packs series of anthologies SLEIGHT of FOOT with Miles Champion Helen Kidd Harriet Tarlo at COMPENDIUM BOOKSHOP 234 Camden High St, London NW1 (Camden Town tube) Tuesday 26 November, 7.00pm FREE (refreshments provided) Sleight of Foot, which also contains texts by Scott Thurston, will be on sale at L5. For more details phone Ken Edwards on 0171-639 7297 or email 100344.2546@compuserve.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:42:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: infra-verbal poetry? In-Reply-To: <199611141419.JAA06872@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII unless Bob is having us on, "infraverbal" could not refer to spoken word -- like infrared or infrahuman, this should be some sort of poetics that takes place below (or possibly? within) the verbal -- but it might just be infradig -- will wait to see what Bob says about it ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 17:56:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: infra-verbal poetry? Are you meaning sublime meanings -- as in RASA? more later ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:32:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: address for Brakhage Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Might anyone have an address for contacting Stan Brakhage? It would be much appreciated. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 15:40:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: address for Brakhage In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Brakhage would ordinarily be contacted at the Film Studies Department of the University of Colorado at Boulder -- He's on leave this semester due to illness, but still gets his mail -- If you backchannel me with your phone number, I'll pass it on to him -- (Maybe you should indicate what you want to reach him about, so I can tell him?) He appears to be in pretty good shape now, and is still meeting with his Sunday night film forum here in Boulder -- (By the way, folks, a few of his films are available on video from Mystic Fire at pretty good rates) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 21:58:05 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: infra-verbal poetry? >Bob Grumman in the recent Poetics Briefs refers to "infra-verbal" poetry >as a new development. Can anyone enlighten me as to what this is? >Is this the same as "spoken word"? Thanks - Henry G. Bob has, for many years, been evolving an extensive neologistic taxonomy for dealing w/ "otherstream" (qwertzblatz & co.) poetries... this frm his "Lexicon Grummaniacal", circa 1989: infra-verbal [is that] poetry in which the main events happen below the level of words, usually in the words' spelling... there are four kinds: fissional (words chopped up to increase expressiveness, e.g., Kempton's "just ice" or Kostelanetz's "the rapist"); fusional where words are joined to increase expressiveness (as in my own "nigthmarriage"); microherent, or minimally coherent--fragments of words used for poetic effect--see much of Basinski; alphaconceptual where what is done inside a word is "equaphorically" highly significant--e.g., the placement of an extra silent "gh" in Saroyan's "lighght".... this may have been revised since then... asever [note th fusional infraverbalization...] luigi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 00:03:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Re: Situ and Lettrist Films at Anthology Film Archives in NY --------------------- Forwarded message: From: jeremias@MIT.EDU (Jeremy Grainger) Sender: owner-avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Reply-to: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Date: 96-11-14 22:55:14 EST We sell both the Debord's Society of the Spectacle and Vienet's Can Dialectics Break Bricks? English subitles by Keith Sanborn. $39.95 each on VHS (NTSC) video, plus $3.50 UPS ground. BTW, folks might be interested to know that the next issue of The MIT Press' Journal _October_ (#79) will be a special issue on Guy Debord. It is due out in early 1997. Jeremy o --------------------------------------------------------- o | jeremias@mit.edu + situ@ix.netcom.com > | Jeremy Grainger + {!inter!activ!art!radio!etc!} > | Manager + p o box 1136 > | MIT Press Bookstore + cambridge ma 02142 > | 292 Main Street + > | Cambridge MA 02142 + temporary autonomous zone on > | + 'no commercial potential' > | books@mit.edu + WZBC 90.3 fm - newton ma > | + alt fridays 10 pm - sat 2 am > o --------------------------------------------------------- o ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Jeremy Grainger jeremias@mit.edu ||||||| Manager store:617.253.5249 ||||||| The MIT Press Bookstore direct/vmail:617.253.0301 ||||||| 292 Main Street fax: 617.258.6894 | Cambridge MA 02142 Massachusetts Institute of Technology "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." --Groucho Marx ---> Visit our web pages at http://www-mitpress.mit.edu/bookstore.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 22:06:11 -0800 Reply-To: Brian Carpenter Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: upcoming Seattle readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII For those of you in Seattle, or anyone who will be in the area in the coming weeks, a few readings you might want to make note of... -- NOV. 25, 7:30 pm, at Seattle Pacific University (3307 3rd W on Queen Anne Hill) Student Union Building Fireside Room: Benefit poetry reading for Share Our Strength writers' program for homeless and hungry and Copper Canyon Press of Port Townsend. Participants include DENISE LEVERTOV, SAM HAMILL (founder and editor of Copper Canyon Press), and EMILY WARN. Suggested contribution: $10 ($5 if you're broke). -- DEC. 2, 7:30 pm, First United Methodist Church (5th & Marion): GARY SNYDER will be reading from his long-awaited _Mountains and Rivers Without End_ (Counterpoint). Ticket are $10, available at Elliott Bay Book Company (1 & S Main St.). Proceeds benefit Copper Canyon Press and the Yoruba Watershed Project. -- DEC. 4, 7:30, at the Elliott Bay Book Company (1st & S Main): UMBERTO ECO. Plenty said right there. Tickets are $5, available at Elliott Bay. And, of course, the always excellent SUBTEXT readings at the Speakeasy. For info on the Elliott Bay readings, you can contact them at (206)624-6600 or 1-800-962-5311. For info on the SPU reading, you can backchannel me. Hope to see some folks there! =BCarpenter """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" Brian Carpenter - bricarp@spu.edu "The word for word is word. __________________________________ Each page is a door to everything is permitted." http://paul.spu.edu/~bricarp --William S. Burroughs """""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:04:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: call for help; russian verse thanks rob, and i'll pass the information along. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 09:07:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Cid Corman Does anyone have a recent address etc. for Cid Corman? I need his permission to quote from some of his unpublished letters. Thanks, Burt kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:04:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: infraverb / burstnorm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If I understand Bob Grumman correctly (and I'm not suggesting that I do) he's talking about a sort of post-cummings play of the signifier. Some older examples would be Aram Saroyan's "eyeye" or the page with the word "crickets" printed in a column past the margins to the top and bottom edges of the page. Bob's piece "A New Poetry Anew" was printed in Teachers & Writers Magazine a year or two ago, and at that point he was referring to this kind of work as 'burstnorm' poetry. But as I say, I may not be getting it, and Bob may be talking about something other than 'burstnorm' when he talks about the 'infra-verbal'. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:39:45 GMT0BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Larkin Organization: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK LIBRARY Subject: Michael Heller London Reading Michael has asked me to remind UK based members of this list that he will be reading at Sub Voicive on 19 Nov (day of the Universities ' strike) at 8pm. Further details can be had by ringing 0181 251 2204. I haven't got the address of the venue with me at the moment. On 22nd Nov he will be giving a seminar at Durham University. He was here at Warwick on Tuesday, and though we could only arouse a small audience for him he gave an excellent paper followed by a brief reading. Those that came were glad to have arisen. Peter Peter Larkin Philosophy & Literature Librarian University of Warwick Library,Coventry CV4 7AL UK Tel:01203 528151 Fax: 01203 524211 Email: Peter.Larkin@.warwick.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:04:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Re: Sleight of Foot Comments: To: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@CompuServe.COM> Comments: cc: John Cayley , cris cheek , Diana Collecott , Arts Council Lit Dept , Allen Fisher , Robert Hampson , Romana Huk , Ira Lightman , Tony Lopez , Rupert Loydell , Peter Middleton , Robin Purves <9448721P@ARTS.GLA.AC.UK>, Alaric Sumner , Fiona Templeton , Scott Thurston In-Reply-To: <961114222221_100344.2546_IHK47-1@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Also, check out the work of Harriet Tarlo in the latest ed. of Talisman, (number 16, fall 1996, $7.50) which includes a 64 page section of UK poetry ed. by Richard Caddel and Peter Middleton. Distributed in the UK by Paul Green, 83b London Road Peterborough. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx x x x Richard Caddel, E-mail: R.I.Caddel @ durham.ac.uk x x Durham University Library, Phone: 0191 374 3044 x x Stockton Rd. Durham DH1 3LY Fax: 0191 374 7481 x x x x "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." x x - Basil Bunting x x x xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don_Cheney@UCSDLIBRARY.UCSD.EDU Subject: new URL for Don Cheney's Home Page & Clean Neck Shop Poeticfolk, My homepage URL has changed. _Don Cheney's Home Page & Clean Neck Shop_ is now located at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791/main.html My writing page is at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791/writing.html And the GREETINGS POETRY LOVERS poem of the week is located at: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791/poem.html check it out. don dcheney@ucsd.edu or doncheney@geocities.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:36:25 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: Re: Ear Inn Wystan's Bill Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Bill & Wystan Bill's noticed by now how we in NZ (read Aotearoa) are very family-like & on accurate first name terms. Hence Laura counts among us. And then, probably in the same 100 NZ poems, is Wystan's dad, Allen. Actually he is among us the most reputed--some have said about the best living poet in English. A further of his Collecteds is due out soon. Bill, welcome on stepping into the family. distant cousins John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:17:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: infra-verbality Thanks to all for infra-verbal info. Sounds very funnygawackian. Actually it sounds a lot like Part III of my lung poem "White City", long in Rhody samizdat. Here's an excerpt from #96: Well they garnered in the parch so mulch pigmeat Corn that is that cornets unpenned Hen's blightless Main dome. Wasn't that a mirror, Rory? Me? Mores Like a miraculosis than a mellow dram o'soul feet. Ida never Ken wiz border yon boodle war, Maurice-- Maisie! A miletown above the raypoint--no less! All afore that gale on the balecorny ain't it? She was hingled on some apocaloosa cardeacon For a straight O-sphere thanksgiviver lovewar-- I reckon on your birdday, year; now the 4-corner Liber tiehatcoateoteaparty's card's gamin again Lovegonedolorosa excruises inner tuba gyrocockpit. These distortions are sort of produced crypto-geometrically by allusions to previous (& more conventional) sections of the poem. One thing I found interesting was that a STORY began to grow on its own out of this kind of chaotic chance process. "White City" became a weird narrative poem in the last 15% based on chance-geometrical allusions. My apologies for all this self-referentiality, people.- Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 08:41:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry G Subject: there was an excavation in Providence Poet/translator Armand Schwerner spoke & read here last night, invited by a comp. lit. class at Brown. The event was part lecture part reading & took place in the lead-cum-aluminum varnish colored stadium seating of the unheated engineering building. Poet/translator Edwin Honig & RI poet fella Stuart Blazer were there alsaho. Schwerner, garbed in a black raincoat (like a negative lab coat) briefly outlined his writing beginnings as a 9-yr old french-speaking emigre to U.S. & resultant anxiety/fascination with translation & "native" speech. Overhead was a majestic chart of the periodic table; on the blackboard some barely legible/effaced equations [Density Jupiter = *(&^T*( MU / 144 ], along with some moonray fluorescent lighting. Some enjoyable versions of Inuit & other Native American lyrics followed; a pantoum; & readings from The Tablets, the author's intriguing sci-fi scholarly transcription/excavation of a mythical ancient Near Eastern culture. Not having read this work beforehand I can't comment much but Schwerner seems to have developed a long "poem" which makes good reading - have dived with relish with a mixture of Ecclesiastes & comic book to re-create an imaginary clay summer in Sumeria where flesh & blood combat the vast dry mummified desserts of history & clues are erased ("untranslateable") beneath the ziggurat of Ancient Blah. & the suspense mounts as the translator of ancient unreal texts tips time into a hat of archaic shamanisms & the periodic table suddenly manifests a 113th element : @~~++??PTAH - [[eeeeeeeee....!!!]] - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:02:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: excavating providence MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Does anyone know when Schwerner's translation of the Inferno will be published? His reading from it at the NPF Orono event last June is still with me. The Tablets were a great way to clear the way for that descent in the maelstrom of the vernacular. Looking forward to it again. Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:10:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Henry Gould asks what Bob Grumman is referring to by the word"infra-verbal poetry" in a PB article. Since I don't have my grumman books in front of me, I cnan't tell you exactly. I can,however, tell you that Grumman is one of the quirkiest thinkers on the poetry scene today. He reels out idiosyncratic taxonomies at an astounding rate that are, for me, both humorous and strangely compelling. His major project is a book entitled OF MANYWHERE AT ONCE and is available from Grumman's own Runaway Spoon Press. I don't have the address, perhaps someone else does. You can probably also get it from Books in Print or from an old PB. Worth checking out. But be ready for a wildly peculiar, yet ever so carefully argued, take on poetry. Jeff P.S. Poetic Briefs 21, a special issue on Alice Notley, is going fast. To insure that you'll receive a copy, send at least 55 cents in stamps to Jeff Hansen 4055 Yosemeite Ave S St. Louis Park, MN 55416 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:44:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Comments: To: Jeff_Hansen@BLAKE.PVT.K12.MN.US Henry Gould asks what Bob Grumman is referring to by the word"infra-verbal poetry" in a PB article. Grumman;s project is a book entitled OF MANYWHERE AT ONCE and is available from Grumman's own Runaway Spoon Press. I don't have the address, perhaps someone else does. You can probably also get it from Books in Print or from an old PB. Runaway Spoon Press I find in the 1997 Literary Market Place, at Box 3621, Port Charlotte, Florida 33949; tel: 941-629-8045 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:35:30 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira-Lightman Subject: Re: your mail Comments: To: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: cc: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Jeff, for you and EB Wasted in Epiphany from "La Morte Amoreuse" by Theophile Gautier You want to know, dear friend, if I ve had a love life? The answer ... is yes. A marking, harrowing episode; although I m sixty-six, it still feels a fearsomely present ember of memory I hardly bear to breathe near. I will not withhold anything from you; however, I would not so strive to relate this for any soul less wise. This is an experience so heady that it s almost incredible to acknowledge one had it. I, I was the mark for a stunning , mephistophelean stitch-up. Me, a modest country-priest, I dreamed taking on night after night (and would to God that this had been only what I dreamed!) a life of the fallen, a life of the backstreets and Sardanaplus. my fleeting eyes too minded towards dalliance flitted at bodies thinking to bring on the wreck of my soul; however, in the end, with the intercession of God and my particular patron saint, I fluked an exorcism of the evil spirit that had been impairing me. My being had been infiltrated by a night being not the same at all. Sun up, being the Lord s official, untouchable, busily praying and on the sacral businesses; sun down, starting from when my peepers had sealed, becoming a young lordship, top expert in flirtation, in hounds and in horses, scattering dice, quenching and, worse, cursing; and, as I would be coming to at the tickle of dawn, things would always seem so contrariwise, that I was sleeping and I must have been dreaming to think I d ever been a priest. From my sleepwalk came recall-bulletins of matters and mutters which I COULD NOT SHUT OUT - albeit I never once had actually sortied beyond the four walls of a priest s house, one would conclude after hearing me now: that here is one sour of obvious lifelong indulgences who, after which begone days, is taking late orders in order to come to a stop nestling in God s cleavage; not a threadbare trainee cleric who has wizened in a poky parish deep in woods and not in the slightest contact with any of the workings of this century. The answer is yes: I have had a love life, like nobody on earth has had a love-life, out of a ruthless furies love so violent that I am awe-struck my put-upon heart did not shatter. Ah, these nights, these nights! PAUSE Starting from tenderest babyhood, I had experienced my calling to the order of priest; such that all my energies were channelled in that direction and my whole life, till twenty-four years of age, stood but as a long noviciate. The theology done, I passed consecutively all the minor orders, and my masters determined me up, regardless of my extreme youth, to the final and unmistakable graduation. The day of my ordination was set for that Easter week. I had never travelled the world; the world was for me the corral around my institutions. I vaguely gathered that there existed this something you call sex, but I wasn t going to stop to gather that too tightly; being of a perfect innocence as I was. I wasn t visiting my old sick mother more than twice a year. In that lay all the relating with the outside world I was offering. I was regretting nothing; I was not experiencing the slightest collywobble before this unrevokeable commitment; one would have been finding me flush with urgency and fervour. No young fiancee watched the kettle boil more febrile, more ardent; I was day-dreaming and night-dreaming that it was me saying the mass; to be a priest, I was envisioning nothing more beautiful the world could offer; I would have put aside any of its crowns or its laureateships. My ambition could conceive of no outside calling. What I m giving you now is your proof that what came upon me should not have come upon me, of what inexplicable mesmerism I was the victim. The big day upon me, I proceeded to church, on feet so dainty that it felt as if I were buoyed on the breeze - or I d got wings, off the shoulder style. I was appearing to myself an angel, so was hit with the awful concerned expressions of my retinue; for we were of a number. I had spent all night at prayer, and I was in a state of the order of what gets pretty close to an ecstasy. Bishop Veteran the Venerable was coming to seem to me like Father God Almighty shepherding eternity, and wasn t that the great firmament to be seen through the high vaults of this temple? I ll spare you all the details of an occasion you know well: the benediction, the communion within both traditions, anoint the palm with oil of Catechumens, lastly the sanctified offering done in concert with the Bishop. I won t verbalise stiflingly on and on about that. Oh, Job had it right, that fellow s unwise whose regimen doesn t prioritise the eyes. I happened to lift my head, which I d been until then keeping down, and I spied before me - I could have been near enough to touch, except this young one stood in reality a way off on the other side of a guard-rail - a strawberry blonde of such a rare beauty, awash in regal splendour. It was as if I was descaled of my eyelids. I experienced the clichi of the blindman immediately regaining sight. The bishop, so refulgent when I d rared to go, winked out just so; the candles guttered on their gold chandeliers like stars snuffed at dawn; the whole church had been occulted. The strawberry blonde alone stood out in this deep deep shadow, like a pentecostal archangel. Alone appeared a light source, to give daylight more than to take it. I hung my lids, really set against ever again undrooping them to surrender to the pull of worldly things; for the magnet was pushing across and through my every border, and I was barely aware of what I could have been said to be up to. A minute on, I opened again, as, like a guard s torch beam picking out the decor on the retinal back wall of an empty building darkened with the venetian blinds closed, I was seeing this scintillating one strobe a procession of band next to band of the colour spectrum through my blinds, and all inside a mauve crimson edge glow, such as you see looking at the sun. And, oh, hello, good looking! The Greatest Masters who, scouring heaven for beauty s ideal, midwife back on earth Holy likenesses of the Blessed Virgin, don t come close to the fabulous reality there. Neither the bard s sonnets nor the great masters pallets can give you any idea of it. This one was so tall, with the sculptedness and grace of a deity; hair the strawberry and blonde of a dusk sun peeking over the crown s parting, branching two gold rivers over the brow; one would have said a monarch s fit crown; temples like dry bright cloud spanning sturdy and light the pediments of dusk brown eyelashes, the latter only there to distinguish more the apple-green sea-green unbearable bright fox-trotting eyes. Oh, such eyes; taking quick hold and showing you straightaway to your destiny; they were living, limpid-ing, ardour-ing, glistened as I have never seen a human eye do; brilliance escaped from them in streaks similar to arrows which I singularly saw sink into my heart. I don't know if the hearthfire that spat them was heaven s or hell s, for sure it was from one or the other s. My strawberry blonde was an angel or a devil, and maybe both; Eve s thirteenth rib! No, this one just wasn t of the mother we can all call mamma. Mother of pearl TEETH smiling in very red lips, yes, tiny dimples putting themselves around each expression of the mouth by the flexing of light satin cheeks. The nose, that had a finesse and boldness about it, come undeniably from nobility. Lustre of agate played over the calm glowing skin of the nakedly shown off collarbone and then globes of chunky pearls, blond pearls, almost as blond pearl as the neck, laced down onto and over the swell of the clothed torso. The head of the owner of all of this was now and again restoring attention to itself by looking up with the slow ripple of a field snake, or a peacock that s strutting, and was inspiring each time tiny shudders around a collar decked with handstitched embroidery like a lattice of pure silver. Had on a top in a velvet of red-orange, full sleeves with ermine all the way through lining them and out of them extended a patrician s hands of endless refinement, long soft fingers of such a perfect translucence that they let light just carry through them, as the fingers of dawn do. PAUSE All of these details stand to me still as closely as if they dated from yesterday and, accepted that I WAS highly afflicted, none of them got missed: the trivialest nuance, the pinpoint of dark at the nook of the chin, the unnoticeable downy hairs at the joins of the lips, the velvet forehead, the fine shadow echo of the eyelashes over the cheek, I caught everything with stunning perspicacity. In proportion to the more I was observing, seeming to me unlocking in myself were doorways that just before had stood shut; bricked over skylights to each sense were unbricking, letting enter in the unknown vistas; life itself to me seeming designed altogether other; I was coming to my birth in a new structure of ideas. An awful anguish was wracking my heart; every sixty seconds melting away seemed one second, and one century. The holy ritual was moving forward however and I was being brought well away from the world in which my forming sensuousnesses were passionately urging the waters to break. I said yes however, though I was wanting to say no, though the whole of me was uproaring and protesting against the slapping down my tongue was doing against my heart: a force of the occult was caesareaning out (to spite me) their words, out of my throat. That s perhaps what goes on while so many young women walk to the high altar with a determined plan to reject in stunning style the husband one sticks on them, and while not a single carries her project through. That s undoubtedly what goes on while so many silly novices take on the veil, set as they ruddy may have been to shred it off when put on to pronounce its vows. One wouldn t dare neither to be responsible for a so scandalous affront to all present nor to disprove the assumptions of so many people; all these willpowers, all that regard seems to sit on you like a suit of iron; and then it s in ordered proportion so organised, everything has been so regimented beforehand, in a manner so self-evidently not for revoking, that your reasoning capitulates under the bulk of the thing and stoops, completely. PAUSE I had up oomph good enough to dig up a mountain, for yelling out loud that I was not wanting to be a priest; but I didn t get to the point; my voice stayed shut up in my mouth s roof, and it was impossible to communicate my wishes by the slightest body twitch. I was bright with insomnia, but in a condition like one in a nigmthare, where you want to say a word on which your life is hanging, and you don t get to the point. The strawberry blonde knew what martyrdom I was suffering, and, as encouragement, threw me a glance strong with a divine promise. The eyes were writing a poem in which each image composed a song. Saying to me: PAUSE If you want to be by me, I will make you more happy than himself the Lord in HIS paradise; the angels will be jealous of you. Rip off this funeral winding sheet in which you re going to wind; I am the beauty, I am the youth, I am the life; come by me, we will be the love. What could Jehovah offer you as an offsetting of that loss? We shall like dream stream, kissing into eternity. Pour away the wine in that chalice and you are free. I will escort you to the uncharted islands; you will sleep on my breast, in a solid gold bed, under a silver canopy; for I love you and I want to prise you from your God, to whom so many great hearts pour away gushes of love, that comes not to him. PAUSE I was seeming to hear these phrases over a soft translucent rhythm, and the looks almost had sound, and the words these eyes were posting were clattering on the mat of my heart as if a ghost shutter had been flapped there. I was feeling ready to forsake God, and yet my heart was ploddingly laying on the bricks of the Holy Ceremony. The babe shot me a last eyeful so begging so hopeless, sharp rapier after rapier crossed in my breast, I felt more stabs in my ribs than does the mother of all sorrows. In this spirit was it made, me being this priest. Did I hear a low voice? The strawberry blonde vanished into the community. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 14:31:57 -0500 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John_Lavagnino@BROWN.EDU Subject: 1996 MLA sessions Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Loss passed on the word awhile back about the sessions he and I are participating in at the MLA; I would like to add that we now have a complete guide available on the web to computer-related sessions at the conference: http://www.ach.org/mla96/guide.html Precious few of these sessions and talks relate to poetry, of course, but there are still a few such talks. I would like very much to hear from anyone who is speaking and who would like me to add links or other information about their activities. And, for those thinking ahead to the 1997 MLA Convention in Toronto, the Association for Computers and the Humanities will be organizing two sessions for that event: one on Spatial and Geometric Metaphors for Text, and another on Computers and Theory; talk of poetry would be welcome in both sessions. http://www.ach.org/mla97/ John Lavagnino Women Writers Project, Brown University ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 15:53:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Well I am interested in what ppl think about POETICS in relationship to an audience outside of other poets. e.g. the last few years with the Spoken Word trad. and Perf-Po musings: obviously ALL of this is obsolete almost immediately. To infuse social-anarcho change, using the role of the media/mediated and creating a true discourse: do we have to come outside of the academy, even the NEW academies like Buffalo, New School SF, and Naropa? Street poetics, performance art slams, preaching poetics... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:07:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Well Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bil Brown could you be more specific? what is obsolete? I checked with my manufacturer and I'm not supposed to obsolete until early 98, have they rolled the production schedule up? Jordn ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Well Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jord'n, that's expiration date, not obsolescence date. 98 is just when the newest model will be out, but you should be good for AT LEAST a week after that. e'q'e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:25:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Well In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:07:56 -0400 from On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:07:56 -0400 Jordan Davis said: >I checked with my manufacturer and I'm not supposed to obsolete until early 98, >have they rolled the production schedule up? Not to worry, Jordan. I was obsolete 15 years ago & my muffler still doesn't work. As far as the social change project: don't forget, as Rabbit Face puts it - poetry is what escapes POETICS theories almost successfully. - Hank "6-day Weekend NOW!!" Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 16:33:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM Subject: Re: Well MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain Jordan rote: >> I checked with my manufacturer and I'm not supposed to obsolete until early 98, have they rolled the production schedule up? Jordan, I think yours is a planned obsolescence. I checked your specs. Perhaps BB means a sort of spontaneous archaism, a momentary phenomenon. daniel_bouchard@hmco.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 18:56:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: Well ToooooooooShay...LOL bil ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:03:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: Well What I'm tring to say is: as EdSanders wd say: when are we going to break into that media daemon FULLY. Break it up. Whatever. I don't think it's a ODD question. Maybe I've just been reading too much facist propaganda, hmf. If yr not interested: tell me, I'll shut the fuck up. Cheers, bil brown ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:57:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: citation help... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hey, does anybody out there have a subscription to _wired_?... if so, can you check for me---i'm pretty sure it's the october, but could be the september---issue for a (short, cogent) piece by kali tal on the applicability of african-american criticism and theory to cspace controversies... please backchannel me the issue no., page nos., title of piece---i need mla-style citation info... i read the piece at the newstand, and the library down the street doesn't seem to have that issue handy... many thanx... joe amato@charlie.cns.iit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 17:06:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Cid Corman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Does anyone have a recent address etc. for Cid Corman? I need his permission >to quote from some of his unpublished letters. > >Thanks, > >Burt >kimmelman@admin.njit.edu Corman Fukuoji-cho 80 Utano Ukyo-ku, Kyoto 616, Japan. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 14:57:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: citation help... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe, "Life Behind the Screen" by Kali Tal, Wired October 1996, vol 4, #10 pp 134-136. But isn't there an acceptable format for name of newsstand/bookstore where you read it? - Herb >hey, does anybody out there have a subscription to _wired_?... > >if so, can you check for me---i'm pretty sure it's the october, but could >be the september---issue for a (short, cogent) piece by kali tal on the >applicability of african-american criticism and theory to cspace >controversies... > >please backchannel me the issue no., page nos., title of piece---i need >mla-style citation info... i read the piece at the newstand, and the >library down the street doesn't seem to have that issue handy... > >many thanx... > >joe >amato@charlie.cns.iit.edu Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:15:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Philip H. Sherburne" Subject: Re: Well Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" perhaps not an odd question...but at odd angles. which media daemon? (daemon or hydra?) and at precisely what level is it desirable to break into? and is breaking into necessarily breaking up? (because breaking up, as they tell us, is hard to do) phs ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:00:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Felix Subject: Ark Floats in Chicago Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just a note to let those who were concerned know that Ronald Johnson read here in Chicago and floored at least half of a boisterous crowd of 150 or so with readings from Ark. Ron wore wide-wales and hoop tortoise-shell specs that made him, as Peter O'Leary suggested, the spitting image of Dr. Freud. The reading went swimmingly *after* my indulgent introduction (having talked abt Orphee with Ron the night before, I rambled on how beautiful Jean Marais was)--Ron reading Beam 4, 30, Spire 34, 44, 49,57, and arches viii (74), and ix (75). We also learned that Sun and Moon will publish in spring '97 *The Outworks* to ARK which will inlude the poem formerly known as Radi Os, now titled *Dome Excised from Paradise Lost,* and the "Blocks to be Arranged in a Pyramid, (in memorium AIDS)." cheerfully, Joel Felix ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:27:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: New and Improved Welcome Message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Note that this new version of the welcome message includes the new listserv address. The new address is in effect now, so send messages to poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Rev. 11-15-96 ____________________________________________________________________ Welcome to the Poetics List & The Electronic Poetry Center sponsored by The Poetics Program, Department of English, Faculty of Art & Letters, of the State University of New York, Buffalo ____________________________________________________________________ http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ____________________________________________________________________ _______Contents___________ 1. About the Poetics List 2. Subscriptions 3. Cautions 4. Digest Option 5. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail 6. Who's Subscribed 7. The Electronic Poetry Center (EPC) 8. Poetics Archives at EPC 9. Publishers & Editors Read This! [This document was prepared by Charles Bernstein (bernstei@bway.net) and Loss Pequen~o Glazier (glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu).] ____________________________________________________________________ 1. About the Poetics List Please note that this is a private list and information about the list should not be posted to other lists or directories of lists. The idea is to keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and also to keep the scale of the list small and the volume manageable. The Poetics List, while committed to openness, is moderated. While individual posts of participants are sent directly to all subscribers, we continue to work to promote the editorial function of this project. The definition of that project, while provisional, and while open to continual redefinition by list participants, is nonetheless aversive to a generalized discussion of poetry. Rather, our aim is to support, inform, and extend those directions in poetry that are committed to innovations, renovations, and investigations of form and/or/as content, to the questioning of received forms and styles, and to the creation of the otherwise unimagined, untried, unexpected, improbable, and impossible. The "list owner" of Poetics is Charles Bernstein: contact him for further information. Joel Kuszai is currently working on the administration of the list. For subscription information contact us at POETICS@acsu.buffalo.edu. ____________________________________________________________________ 2. Subscriptions The list has open subscriptions. You can subscribe (sub) or unsubscribe (unsub) by sending a one-line message, with no subject line, to: listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu the one-line message should say: unsub poetics {or} sub poetics Jill Jillway (replacing Jill Jillway with your own name; but note: do not use your name to unsub) We will be sent a notice of all subscription activity. * If you are having difficulty unsubscribing, please note: Sometimes your e-mail address may be changed slightly by your system administrator. If this happens you will not be able to send messages to Poetics or to unsubscribe, although you will continue to get your Poetics mail. To avoid this, unsub from the old address and resub from the new address. If you can no longer do this there is a solution if you use Eudora (an e-mail program that is available free at shareware sites): from the Tools menu select "Options" and then select set-up for "Sending Mail": you can substitute your old address here and send the unsub message. The most frequent problem with subscriptions is bounced messages. If your system is often down or if you have a low disk quota, Poetics messages may get bounced. Please try avoid having messages from the list returned to us. If the problem is low disk quota, you may wish to request an increase from your system administrator. (You may wish to argue that this subscription is part of your scholarly communication!) You may also wish to consider obtaining a commercial account. ____________________________________________________________________ 3. Cautions Please do not send attachments or include extremely long documents in a post, since this may make it difficult for those who get the list via "digest" or who cannot decode attached or specially formatted files. In addition to being archived at the EPC, some posts to Poetics (especially reviews, obituary notices, announcements, etc.) may also become part of specific EPC subject areas. (See section 7.) Please do not send inquiries to the list to get an individual subscribers address. To get this information, see section 6. If you want someone to send out information to the list as a whole, or supply information missing from an post, please send the request or comment to the individual backchannel, not to the whole list. ____________________________________________________________________ 4. Digest Option The Poetics List can send a large number of individual messages to your account to each day! If you would prefer to receive ONE message each day, which would include all messages posted to the list for that day, you can use the digest option. Send this one-line message (no subject line) to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu set poetics digest NOTE:!! Send this message to "listserv" not to Poetics or as a reply to this message!! You can switch back to individual messages by sending this message: set poetics mail ____________________________________________________________________ 5. Temporarily turning off Poetics mail Do not leave your Poetics subscription "active" if you are going to be away for any extended period of time! Your account may become flooded and you may lose not only Poetics messages but other important mail. You can temporarily turn off your Poetics subscription by sending a message to "listserv." set poetics nomail & turn it on again with: set poetics mail When you return you can check or download missed postings from the Poetics archive. (See 8 below.) ____________________________________________________________________ 6. Who's Subscribed To see who is subscribed to Poetics, send an e-mail message to listserv@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu; leave the "Subject" line of the e-mail message blank. In the body of your e-mail message type: review poetics You will be sent within a reasonable amount of time (by return e-mail) a rather long list containing the names and e-mail addresses of Poetics subscribers. This list is alphabetized by server not name. Please do not send a message to the list asking for the address of a specific subscriber. ____________________________________________________________________ 7. What is the Electronic Poetry Center? our URL is http://writing.upenn.edu/epc The mission of this World-Wide Web based electronic poetry center is to serve as a hypertextual gateway to the extraordinary range of activity in formally innovative writing in the United States and the world. The Center provides access to the burgeoning number of electronic resources in the new poetries including RIF/T and other electronic poetry journals, the POETICS List archives, an AUTHOR library of electronic poetic texts, and direct connections to numerous related electronic RESOURCES. The Center also provides information about contemporary print little magazines and SMALL PRESSES engaged in poetry and poetics. And we have an extensive collection of soundfiles of poets' reading their work, as well as the archive of LINEbreak, the radio interview series. The EPC is directed by Loss Pequen~o Glazier. ____________________________________________________________________ 8. Poetics Archives via EPC Go to the EPC and select Poetics from the opening screen. Follow the links to Poetics Archives. You may browse the archives by month and year or search them for specific information. Your interface will allow you to print or download any of these files. Or set your browser to go directly to: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics/archive ____________________________________________________________________ 9. Publishers & Editors Read This! PUBLISHERS & EDITORS: Our listings of poetry and poetics information is open and available to you. We are trying to make access to printed publications as easy as possible to our users and ENCOURAGE you to participate! Send a list of your press/publications to lolpoet@acsu.buffalo.edu with the words EPC Press Listing in the subject line. You may also send materials on disk. (Write file name, word processing program, and Mac or PC on disk.) Send an e-mail message to the address above to obtain a mailing address to which to send your disk. Though files marked up with html are our goal, ascii files are perfectly acceptable. If your word processor ill save files in Rich Text Format (.rtf) this is also highly desirable Send us extended information on new publications (including any back cover copy and sample poems) as well as complete catalogs/backlists (including excerpts from reviews, sample poems, etc.). Be sure to include full information for ordering--including prices and addresses and phone numbers both of the press and any distributors. Initially, you might want to send short anouncements of new publications directly to the Poetics list as subscribers do not always (or ever) check the EPC; in your message please include full information for ordering. If you have a fuller listing at EPC, you might also mention that in any Poetics posts. Some announcements circulated through Poetics and the EPC have received a noticeable responses; it may be an effective way to promote your publication and we are glad to facilitate information about interesting publications. ____________________________________________________________________ END OF POETICS LIST WELCOME ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:00:16 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: infra-verbal poetry? bob grumman's address, shd anyone want to follow up directly: c/o Runaway Spoon Press PO Box 3621 Port Charlotte FL 33949 no email. lbd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 12:26:22 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel_Bouchard@HMCO.COM Subject: "Passive consumption of information is not enough." (Chomsky) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain here's a forwarded message that I hope some people will find use for: To: can-peace @ pencil.math.missouri.edu (Multiple recipients of list) @ SMTPIN cc: (bcc: Daniel Bouchard/College/hmco) From: rcowan @ lesley.edu (Rich Cowan) @ SMTPIN Date: 11/15/96 11:01:28 AM Subject: CANET: Communication for Campus Activists Having Problems Unsubbing? Want to tell a friend how they can subscribe? Please pass this on to anyone who needs it. Thanks! -CCO -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Dear Friend, revised: 11/05/96 We are writing because the Center for Campus Organizing (CCO) has set up over a dozen free e-mail lists to promote communication among campus activists. This online project is called CANet -- short for the Campus Activists' Network. The Center for Campus Organizing (CCO) is a national clearinghouse based in Cambridge, MA, USA, originally established in 1991 as the University Conversion Project. CANET is only a small part of CCO, a non-profit organization whose mission is to promote peace and justice activism and investigative journalism on college campuses. We have not yet added you to any mailing lists. We are asking you to try one or more of the discussions described below. Are all moderated (actually the term we are using is "facilitated") by human volunteers who are campus activists, so your mailbox will not be deluged. The Campus Activists' NETwork is currently divided into 16 areas that you may subscribe to individually. Some CANET discussions are cosponsored with other organizations. A list of topics we haven't addressed, because they are covered better by existing lists, appears below. Circulation figures are included in parenthesis: 1 ACTION96 -- For planning coordinated actions at dozens of campuses, i.e. action on prop 209, or to "Challenge the Lie$" about budget priorities. (300) 2 CAN-ALERT -- Action Alerts of the Center for Campus Organizing. Not a discussion list; subscribe for very infrequent, "emergency" alerts. 3 CAN-ALUM -- Alumni Network. For alumni who used to be campus activists, on supporting campus activism and remaining active after graduation. (NEW!) 4 CAN-AR -- Anti-Racism. For campus activists involved in activities resisting racism. (120) 5 CAN-BC -- Boston Center. Discussion for campus activists in the Boston area and those interested in a local center for student activism. (50) 6 CAN-ER -- Educational Rights. For people who are organizing against tuition increases and efforts to cut funding for higher education. (500) 7 CAN-FAC -- Faculty Activist Network. Sponsored by CCO and Teachers For a Democratic Culture; responds to attacks on higher education. (180) 8 CAN-LABOR -- Student Labor Activism. Discussion for students who are interested in labor organizing, on campus or when they graduate. (150) 9 CAN-PEACE -- Peace Activism and Economic Conversion. Students working to challenge militarism. Cosponsored with Peace Action. (120) 10 CAN-POVERTY --NEW discussion for student anti-poverty activists. Cosponsored by Students Together Ending Poverty. (100) 11 CAN-RW -- Right Wing Alert. A discussion about responding to efforts by well-funded Right Wing groups to dictate politics on campus. (500) 12 CAN-SKIT -- Creative Activism. A place to share ideas for creative activist tactics, and to draft skits for guerrilla theatre. (NEW!!) These three discussions ask new subscribers to state their involvement in campus activism, in order to help keep the discussion relevant. 1 CAN-YFN -- Young Feminist Network. For people who are involved in feminist campus organizations or who want to start one. (150) 2 CAN-AJ -- Campus Alternative Journalism. Restricted to people who are creating alternative campus media or who want to do so. (100) 3 CAN-LAW -- Law Student Activists. A network of law students interested in public interest law, legal cases affecting student activists. With few exceptions, it is not possible to send mail to any of these lists unless you subscribe first. Since subscriptions on most of the lists are processed by a human being, if you subscribe today it may take a day or two before you receive a message saying you're subscribed! ----- SUBSCRIBING TO A DISCUSSION ------------ You can subscribe yourself to any CANET discussion by sending a message to: canet@pencil.math.missouri.edu with a subject of "canet" and a message body with ONLY the following: sub NAME-OF-LIST Yourfirstname Yourlastname If your email software is set up to use a signature, turn this off before sending a message to CANET; i.e. if Emma Goldman wanted to subscribe to can-er, her email message should ONLY say: sub can-er Emma Goldman After a few minutes you should receive an acknowledgement and a request to introduce yourself to other subscribers of CAN-ER. ----- CANCELING YOUR SUBSCRIPTION ------------ You can unsubscribe yourself to any discussion by sending an email message to canet@pencil.math.missouri.edu with a subject of "canet" and body: unsub NAME-OF-LIST ------ RECEIVING MAIL AS A "DIGEST" ---------- For each CANET discussion, you may set your mail delivery mode to "digest" so that messages will be accumulated daily and sent to you in a bundle. You will receive instructions on how to do this as soon as your subscription to any CANET list is approved. For all discussions with over 300 subscribers, you will initially start receiving mail in digested form, along with instructions on how to turn digesting off so that you receive each message separately. ------ POLICIES ON ADDING NEW LISTS ---------- You may wonder why CANET provides forums on some issues but not others. The reason is that we don't want to reinvent the wheel. If an effective campus activist-focused discussion already exists, we'd rather promote it than compete with it. Here are four discussions we promote: AMNESTY-D Serves Campus Human Rights Activists (Amnesty Int'l) SEACNET Campus Environmental Groups (Student Env. Action Coalition) AFFAM-L Discussion of Struggles to Defend Affirmative Action QUEERCAMPUS Serves l/g/b/o Campus Communities Here are instructions on subscribing to these lists: Name of List Send the "subscribe LISTNAME YOURNAME" message to: amnesty-d amnestyd-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu seac+announce listserv@ecosys.drdr.virginia.edu affam-l listserv@cmsa.berkeley.edu queercampus majordomo@vector.casti.com * *for queercampus give an email address instead of your name when subscribing Decisions about the future development of the CANET system will be made by CCO's Campus Organizing Advisory Board, which is made up of 25 students, 15 faculty members, and 5 youth activists. If you have questions or complaints about how CANET operates, please send them to, via e-mail, to facil@pencil.math.missouri.edu ------ FOR MORE INFORMATION ---------------- When you subscribe, you will receive additional instructions about sending mail, guidelines for discussions, etc. If you want that information now, send a blank email message to: canet-info@pencil.math.missouri.edu An archive of past discussions and additional resources for campus organizing will soon be updated on our web page (see below). Finally, since computers can only do a small part of what is necessary to promote activism on campus, we want to let you know how to contact our office, get literature from our office, and get human advice on your campus organizing. We now provide: * Campus Organizing Guide for Peace and Justice Groups (16 pages) * Mini-Guide to Bringing a Progressive Speaker to Campus (24 pages) * Mini-Guide to Building a Permanent Multi-Issue Student Coalition (16 pp.) * Mini-Guide on Creative Activist Tactics (16 pages) * Afflict the Comfortable; Comfort the Afflicted: Guide to the Alternative Campus Press (160 pages) * Directory of Internships in the Alternative Press (16 pages) * Guide to Uncovering the Right on Campus, 2nd Ed. (Coming in October!) Please call Brooke, Dave, Jenn, Michelle, or Rich from 10am-6pm e.s.t., at: Center for Campus Organizing, Box 748, Cambridge, MA 02142 617-354-9363 e-mail: cco@igc.apc.org http://envirolink.org/orgs/cco ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 05:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carnography Subject: LIVE HOT FORENSIC CAT NOSTRILS IN YOUR ICEMAILBOX-EARMAP-MINTAMIN COMMODINATOR!!! In-Reply-To: <199611160501.AAA12400@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Humans and humanimals in smoking jackets: Is it my imagination, or has this listserv become a red light district for hello-kitty stationery products? Have we all degenerated into caffeine-addled telephone psychics in a booth in Amsterdam, and if so, fellow thrill enthusiasts, why bother? Do we spree-posting hydrocephaloids not realize that the word *sex* can be used ironically--especially by existential hedonists with jaguar-patterned sheets, coriander-scented waterbeds, and several discrete handfuls of vintage mood elevators? Who put the fluorescent orange codpieces in my hookah? Really, I don't know which is worse--the vulgarity, the stench, or the lack of color coordination. I only know that I miss my Automat Mattress playing cards. One might complain, but that runs contrary to the hedonistic impulse. Perhaps it is time to create another list called alt.slacks.sharkskin.dirty-presbyterians. (Or perhaps not. In any case, it is time for my Daiquiri lozenges.) Ruefully, Bourbon Licorice (With props to the jaunty nurse on 3rd & Lex) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tried to send this the other day under a pseudonym (see above) but nothing happened. Don't tell me that someone was actually offended by the subject header. That *would* impress the nine-year-old within to the point of tittering. Could explain my intention here, but really, since when do I owe you favors? How often do you mow my dishes and fluff the Abyssinian? best, Scrypt http://www.interport.net/~scrypt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 07:50:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: citation help... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" herb, thanx much!... yes, exactly---cite the newstand!.. incl. time & date, & any witnesses---works for me!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 15:38:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Cid Corman George, Thanks so much for the Corman. Burt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Nov 1996 17:16:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: New Publication from Marshall Creek Press Announcing: New Chapbook: A LITTLE SYNCOPY Sheila E. Murphy Marshall Creek Press PO Box 305 Ben Lomond, CA 95005 5.00 28 pp. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 03:52:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: The Bridge, by Hart Crane MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The Bridge by Hart Crane bridge paw lion water water lion paw bridge so that the older industrial industrial older wire here divided each element is absolutely perfect egyptian sphinx claw bridge liquid bridge claw each pixel beauty address x and y multiplied there fibered in order to computation age age computation hungered foot panther fluid fluid panther foot hungered the field of the panther weighs in perfect water water perfect where wire fibered adds subtracts unknown unknown abstracts ends bridged, wait here while i told you so down to the footed field of lion sphinx panther sphinx lion it's weight here. i told you so. ______________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 12:26:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Scharf Subject: Fifties query MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I would really appreciate any tips on anthologies from the 1950's -- both those containing work by people writing then, and those reflecting the editor's take on, say, _Early American Poets_ (a L. Untermeyer production from '52) or French stuff. No tip is too obvious or banal, and any descriptions of contents would be extremely useful. With thanks --Mike S. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 14:28:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wheeler Subject: Re: Fifties query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Know the Leggett (58) 12 POETS: Shakespeare Donne Pope Wordsworth Keats Browning Dickinson Housman Yeats EA Robinson, Frost, Eliot - Holt Rinheart, & Ballantine's New Poems by American Poets series (I have #2 edited by Rolfe Humphries) 1957 (first vol. 1953) including a slew? On Sun, 17 Nov 1996, Michael Scharf wrote: > I would really appreciate any tips on anthologies from the 1950's -- both > those containing work by people writing then, and those reflecting the > editor's take on, say, _Early American Poets_ (a L. Untermeyer production > from '52) or French stuff. No tip is too obvious or banal, and any > descriptions of contents would be extremely useful. With thanks --Mike S. > Susan Wheeler 37 Washington Square West #10A New York, New York 10011 (212) 254-3984 wheeler@is.nyu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 13:59:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Fifties query In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Michael -- hard to know if these are of interest to you or not, without a better sense of your porject -- but on the assumption that you are taking a wide view of 50s anthologizing practices -- don't leave out of account: _Chicanos_ Tino Villanuevo (might have had a different title in first edition) _The Poetry of the Negro_ -- Arna Bontemps & Langston Hughes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:33:56 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Pam Brown Subject: query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello Poetics listees- Another question from the bottom of the world - could anyone help ? A subscriber to an Australian literary discussion group has asked - "And, does anyone know whether the (US) Association of Literary Scholars and Critics, whose members seem to be pushing for a return to the study of literature (not necessarily canonical) in English departments, is a neo-conservative front? " Any answers welcomed Thanks Pam Brown ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 17:38:49 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: query ALSC MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > "And, does anyone know whether the (US) Association of Literary Scholars > and Critics, whose members seem to be pushing for a return to the > study of literature (not necessarily canonical) in English departments, > is a neo-conservative front? " If I recall correctly, some of the funds for the ALSC conference in Minneapolis did come from conservative organizations, but the organizers were very open about this, so the term "front," with all of its McCarthy-era paranoid associations, doesn't seem quite right. I don't have the letter handy, but I seem to recall that John Ellis, one of the main movers-and-shakers of the ALSC, mentioned in correspondence that he was concerned that this "neo-conservative front" charge would come up due to the source of the money (which wasn't available from other quarters), and that the organization wasn't meant to have a specifically conservative political bent. One could argue that, in the final analysis, those who pay the piper call the tune, but this seems a bit reductive, especially with regard to a fairly loosely organized group of scholars and critics. One could also argue that the ALSC's focus on literary rather than cultural studies is inherently conservative, but there seems to be a movement in this direction in leftish quarters too, lately -- see the Marxian Frank Lentricchia, in a recent _Lingua Franca_ piece, or the liberal Richard Rorty, in the latest _Raritan_, for example. (I don't think either Rorty or Lentricchia has anything to do with ALSC, though). Subjectively speaking, my general sense is that ALSC members range across the political spectrum, but do tend to be more conservative than, say, the membership of the MLA as a whole. At any rate, it seems a bit extreme to call the organization a neo-conservative front -- I don't expect to see members in jackboots kicking down the door of my office and seizing my copy of Jameson's _Political Unconscious_. --Robert "I am not now, nor have I ever been a member of the ALSC" Archambeau (and I think I let my MLA membership lapse, too) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:53:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: EPR In-Reply-To: <961116171628_350478270@emout20.mail.aol.com> from "Shemurph@AOL.COM" at Nov 16, 96 05:16:29 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Sheila Murphy, You probably don't know me, but I seem to remember you accidentally sent a copy of some work meant for the Electronic Poetry Review to the POETICS list many months ago. I'm just wondering if you've every heard anything from those folks. I submitted some work myself, and on realizing how long it has been I sent some emails off to the editors -- one was returned as being an invalid address (the kswiggert or kwsiggart address), & the generic epr address got no response. Their web site seems to have stalled in April as well. I have a probably-overdeveloped sense of ethics that prevents me from sending material out when it's under consideration elsewhere, so I'm just trying my best to make sure EPR is really alive (or not) before I take any other action with the work... Anyway, if you happen to know anything I'd sure be interested... Thanks, David. -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 19:57:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: oh god MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit oh god, color me totally useless. etc., etc. re: my last message. well if sheila murphy's out there (whose address I mistakenly didn't re-enter into the message headers), or if anyone else knows what's up with EPR, please let me know. maybe, as maria d. said recently of the reverse virtues of this list, I can learn to live with and accept my own fumblehandedness ... -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 00:00:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis <104047.2175@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Re: Fifties query Can't forget all those oscar williams anthologies -- especially the ones with the little thumbnail photos of all thw photos--haven't seen them in used book shops in ages-- but oscar seemed to have the market down ib the period -- he promoted dylan thomas (and thomas returned the favor by saying nasty stuff about him) and even included joe ceravolo in some late anthology. bill berkson once cliamed that to understand j. ashbery, one must read the O. w. anthologies, as many of ja 's early peoms seem to parody the poets found within joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 01:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: chmod 777 all the little children (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Place the file below in your home directory. Call it "parent". Do chmod 777 parent (just be sloppy). Then type either parent at the prompt or ./parent depending on how your account is set up. First, though, delete these lines and the dotted line below. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- #!/usr/local/bin/perl # Birth and Death of Virtual Children # Reconfigured from Gundavaram, CGI Programming on the World Wide Web $| = 1; print "Wail! Wail! We are all alone!", "\n"; sleep(1); print "We are about to create the child!", "\n"; sleep(1); if ($pid = fork) { print < Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: klobucar Subject: Tony Lopez Reading in LA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ******************** ANNOUNCING ******************************** A READING BY BRITISH POET TONY LOPEZ AT CALIFORNIA INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY (CALTECH) PASADENA, CA 20 NOVEMBER 1996 FOR FURTHER INFORMATI0N PLEASE CALL 818.395.3609 (CONTACT PERSON: JEAN) ************************************************************************ Tony Lopez will be reading from his new book, _False Memory_ just published by The Figures Press. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 22:54:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: ALSC In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I don't know about "front" -- but the ALSC is certainly designed as a neoconservative organization -- the funding is much the same as the National Association of Scholars -- which is to say that the organization IS NOT formed and funded primarily by its membership -- Despite their organizing materials claims to want to return to a "literary study that has not been politicized," the mailings that I received from them had quite clearly stated political agendas -- On the other hand, to judge from the papers presented at their first conference, it would appear that they have failed miserably in their efforts to abstain from theory, faddish or otherwise -- No, we probably don't have to worry about them seizing our copies of Jameson -- but then again, the recently formed new accrediting agencies that are supported by the same funding sources do present a clear and present danger to academic freedom -- you don't have to take my word for it, read their literature -- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 22:57:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Happier Notes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Have just returned from a concert by the Mingus Big Band in Boulder -- program states that Mingus suffered from "a rare nerge disease"-- elderly man seated next to me had a kitchen knife protruding from his breast pocket -- But the concert was among the best I've seen last five years -- The band plays LA next weekend, at Wadsworth -- don't miss it -- they don't seem to include any of the recitations that Mingus was so fond of performing, but you won't hear much better charts these days -- nergiously yours, aldon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:35:43 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: space aesthetica Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU a nagoyan friend Matthew Taylor, enthusiastic about Richard Dawkins's "biomorphs" work and complexity theory in general, came up with some stimulating defns regarding creativity: : it presupposes a set of possibilities, 'search' or 'design space' : this space's hyperdimensional : design space includes indefinitely large set of interesting or aesthetically pleasing artifacts (--'art') : such artifacts exist within larger non-interesting and -pleasing set, that is a vast no. of desirable artifacts within much vaster no. undesirable ones (islands within sea) etc Matthew sums up: "Creativity is efficient... [It] is moving through a space of possibilities in an extremely fast and productive manner." What do you think about this? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:27:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: space aesthetica In-Reply-To: <199611180635.PAA04611@fs.dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think this is wrong; it is constructed like a semiotics or linguistics of art and there are deep problems with that. For one thing, the "search" space would be fuzzy, broken, etc. and not a "space" at all - nor does it contain a _set_ - at least in any way I can think of defining the con- struct. To say it's hyperdimensional actually doesn't mean all that much within a choice space - to the extent that any n-dimensional space can be mapped one to one on any m-dimensional space. If Matthew means that the space in total is parametricized - i.e. color/hue/whatever - then again, things become immediately slippery. What is an _artifact_ here? Would Barry's gas sculptures qualify? Buren's events? Stelarc's body? What Matthew is describing is formal decision-making and evolutionary processes used in computer software and design work. But this has very little to do with everyday art-making, and is so highly reductive as to be almost a caricature. Further, even within the computer, decisions are made beforehand in terms of programming, etc. - there's a larger space (you might call it "meta" if you follow Bateson or whomever) where this occurs. Art is not a language. It involves discursive formations, language/s, but that is as far as I'd take it. If anything, art problematizes language, and problematizes _choice_ or _domain_ as well. Alan On Mon, 18 Nov 1996, John Geraets wrote: > a nagoyan friend Matthew Taylor, enthusiastic about Richard Dawkins's > "biomorphs" work and complexity theory in general, came > up with some stimulating defns regarding creativity: > > : it presupposes a set of possibilities, 'search' or > 'design space' > > : this space's hyperdimensional > > : design space includes indefinitely large set of > interesting or aesthetically pleasing artifacts (--'art') > > : such artifacts exist within larger non-interesting and > -pleasing set, that is a vast no. of desirable artifacts > within much vaster no. undesirable ones (islands within sea) > > etc > > Matthew sums up: > > "Creativity is efficient... [It] is moving through a space of > possibilities in an extremely fast and productive manner." > > What do you think about this? > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Tel 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 21:38:05 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: HATE CRIMES (fwd) Comments: To: poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know some of you will want to know about this. gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:29:55 -1000 From: "Bruce N. Simon" Dr. Elise has asked me and others to circulate this story. Please distribute as widely as possible and decide how to act. --Bruce bnsimon@princeton.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:27:37 -0800 From: Sharon Elise I had a wonderful, stimulating experience at the conference last week. It was particularly heartening to meet so many people who are committed to justice. I returned to my campus, California State University at San Marcos (in Northern San Diego County) on Monday. There, I found out from "hall talk" that I had become the lastest victim of hate crimes on campus. Apparently, the previous Monday (the fourth of NOv.), a police officer discovered my name wrapped up in a swastika on a bathroom wall--along with a threat. However, neither I nor my family members were notified by University officials. As you may recall from things I said at our conference, these are not new events on my campus. And the late, inept responses of our administration are not new either. I feel like a moving target, and I feel terrorized. I wish they had told me while I was with you all--while I am getting a lot of sympathy here, there are few warriors ready for action, few posed for proactive agendas. And among our students, what we see is a major back lash going on. The students are "tired of hearing about race" and "tired of having race shoved down [their] throats." They are angry about the teach-in we held late last month on "Institutional Racism and Hate Crimes." They feel attacked when people of color tell them what we are experiencing. To speak about racism is to attack whites, they think. I am at a loss for strategies beyond daily survival. I get up, go out, and look over my shoulder. I have had to change the way I am, but I see no institutional changes. What the hell strategies/tactics are we going to come up with to combat what appears to be a major, rapid return to the past? Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:37:03 -1000 From: "Bruce N. Simon" Here's Dr. Elise response to some of the initial responses to her initial post... --Bruce bnsimon@princeton.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 10:46:32 -0800 From: Sharon Elise I am heartened by your critical and immediate support. I want to clarify, to those of you who expressed concern, that my stance about this shit is that I want it to be out there. To the extent you can, I appreciate if you will be vocal about this and disseminate the information widely. Let me also clarify, that I am NOT the only target here; but perhaps I will be the most visible and vocal about what has happened--others have been terrorized into silence. I cannot take that position. Pray God something constructive comes out of this shit! There have been a series of hate crimes committed on our campus. They have targetted mostly Blacks, but also Chicanos/Mexicanos and gays and lesbians. The campus has been silent about most of them, and has responded only to those that got "leaked." Further, these hate crimes emerge in a climate where the administration selectively provided information to the major newspaper in San Diego that suggested Black faculty who spoke out about institutional racism and hate crimes were misguided, errant, and/or hysterical. The editorial that resulted took that position, and simultaneously exalted the campus and the Univ. president, Bill Stacy, for their wonderful statements and practices of diversity. This editorial was followed with an article (while our conference was underway, so I missed it) about another colleague who was targetted, an article that criticized that person for remaining "mum" about it. Given the general climate, where other acts of terrorism (skinheads "stomping" people in a store in Laguna, a firebombing of a home in Imperial Beach, among others) exist north and south of here and ALWAYS east of here, and where white racists feel powerful because of their victories with "3 strikes you're out," 187, and Prop 209, these events must be anticipated and swiftly countered. That has not been the case, clearly. That's all for now. Just understand, it is with my permission that you all speak out/act out! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:53:56 +0900 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Nicoll Subject: Re: space aesthetica In-Reply-To: <199611180635.PAA04611@fs.dpc.aichi-gakuin.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" John Geraets relayed an interesting set of meditations on creativity: >Matthew sums up: > >"Creativity is efficient... [It] is moving through a space of >possibilities in an extremely fast and productive manner." > >What do you think about this? My very hasty response is: Blakean, brain-bustingly good Hugh ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:46:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bob Grumman's use of the word "infraverbal" is tied for me with his interest in what he elsewhere has called "pluralaesthetic" work. Pluralaesthetic poetry is poetry that contains elements other than those we traditionally associate with language arts--that is, along with words, etc, pluralaesthetic work has a visual element, or a musical element beyond that of the musicality of the words themselves. Sometimes the words themselves form the visual element, sometimes they are mixed with pictures and all sorts of other fun stuff. An absolute must-read, if Bob still has copies available, is his pluralaesthetic book A VERY STRAYNGE BOOK, a beautiful, hilarious modernist fable which includes, among other wonders, a "bunnie who lookd lik a bear"--my paraphrase of his (mis)spellings here probably is incorrect. I'm not sure that Bob identifies pluralaesthetic work anywhere as a "new" thing; rather, he seems very well informed on the history of concrete poetry--not only the range of concrete poetry of the 50s and 60s but also its more distant precursors--Blake's visual poems, Max Ernst, Apollonaire, etc). Bob does, however, suggest in a number of places some points about what makes a pluralaesthic art an art of crucial significance in our historical moment. Because pluralaesthic work breaks down boundaries between various forms of art, pluralaesthic challenges the notion that there is any such thing as a truly "singular" aesthetic in the first place--rather, aesthetic sensibilities are mainly formed by a conjunction of visual, verbal, and other aural experiences. Why, then, does art so often stick to a singular art form in its presentation? Are there implications in such a practice that poetry, for instance, must remain PURELY verbal, and not be contaminated by mixing with elements "not of its kind"? Bob's criticism in POETIC BRIEFS is directed at the recent Messerli anthology (and I believe, but I'm no sure, because I don't have it in front of me since I'm working in a computer lab) also at the recent Hoover anthology because neither anthology, according to Bob, contains sufficient examples of pluralaesthic work. He has no problem with this per se--all anthologies have limits--but he does have problems with the way he feels the Messerli anthology sets itself up as THE thorough anthology of contemporary American Modernist and Postmodernist poetry. He quotes Marjorie Perloff, I believe, as making a claim of this kind for the anthology, and simply wants to point out that he believes that the anthology is not as complete as many have claimed it is. I'm not sure how justified Bob's claims are, although he does seem to be pointing out some significant omissions. But someone with more familiarity with all these anthologies than I have would probably be better capable of making such a judgement. I guess I'd like to add here that anyone who's looking for a classroom anthology that does contain pluralaesthic work might look at the Pierre Joris and Jerome Rothenberg anthology POEMS FOR THE MILLENIUM. Plenty of pluralaesthic work there. I've already used the anthology once, with great success, in an introductory creative writing class, and I'm going to use it again. If nothing else, I've found that some of my students really LIKE the fact that here's a poetry book with funky pictures in it too. Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu "I have not yet begun | | to go to extremes" | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:40:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: New Poetics Archive Features Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe Amato pointed out to me that I had mistakenly left the old listserv address in section 6 of the Welcome Message ("review poetics") -- it should have said send this message to listserv@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu With the new listserv program, the automatic archiving of the list is significantly improved. You can find the new archives at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics This archive is up to the minute; that is, it will have this message as fast as you do. It also give you many sorting features but it is primarily organized around the subject header (it sort all messages with the same header together), another reason to be sure to check that the subject header is accurate when you send a message to the list. The archive covers March 1994 to present; earlier material (starting December 1993) will remain available at the EPC of course. It seems to me that this may significantly change the use of this list, since it makes the archive a viable alternative to the digest or toggling between mail and nomail. And it makes the list much easier to read for nonsubcribers. some examples: Sort by: Author | Date | Topic Chronologically | Most recent first Options: Show author | Hide author Back to main POETICS menu Search SUBJECT SORT (Nov.) looks like this: (3 messages) A Free Drink in the Archives (2 messages) ALIVE! Ronald Johnson Reading ANALYSIS OF THE U.S. POSITION ON THE DRAFT DECLARATION (fwd) AWOL November Happenings posted AWOL: John Kinsella's US tour (forwarded) All loyalty to the social. (2 messages) Ange Mlinko & Edwin Torres @ Ear Inn Sat 2:30 Anne Waldman reading (2 messages) and of course you can click on any of these lines to go to messages note that this is not helpful: POETICS Digest - 10 Nov 1996 to 11 Nov 1996 POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1996 to 3 Nov 1996 POETICS Digest - 30 Oct 1996 to 31 Oct 1996 POETICS Digest - 9 Nov 1996 to 10 Nov 1996 then ends Caps letters with: WOODLAND PATTERN READINGS Yeats Assistance Yi-Young Lee then goes to lower case: a real book review [long, maybe] address for Brakhage (2 messages) arrival broughton and gleason papers buy nothing day (fwd) call for help; russian verse (3 messages) call for papers (fwd) calls for help: correction constabulary notes from all over (3 messages) then gives you the blow by blow 1."I recognize a frog by its structure" Re: "I recognize a frog by its structure" (32 lines) From: Joe Amato Re: "I recognize a frog by its structure" (41 lines) From: Joe Amato Re: "I recognize a frog by its structure" (33 lines) From: Aldon L. Nielsen 2.(FORWARDED) AWOL: PUSHING AT SILENCE By Andrew Burke (FORWARDED) AWOL: PUSHING AT SILENCE By Andrew Burke (66 lines) From: Mark Roberts 3.(Forwarded) AWOL: Hazel Smith Abstractly Represented for sale (Forwarded) AWOL: Hazel Smith Abstractly Represented for sale (122 lines) From: Mark Roberts By author (a random sample): note it sorts by first name!: 52. Kevin Killian Re: John Kinsella (15 lines) SPT readings (28 lines) San Francisco Events this week that I know about (68 lines) San Francisco Premonitions Reading (51 lines) 53.Kurt Nimmo PNG POET SERIES: LYN LIFSHIN (85 lines) 54.LPHILLIPS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Re: John Kinsella in Boston (14 lines) 55.Loss Glazier Re: John Kinsella (18 lines) 56.Louis Cabri All loyalty to the social. (29 lines) Ray words (39 lines) South Africa (9 lines) South African (10 lines) 57.Mark Nowak Paul Metcalf Readings (22 lines) Once you are reading message, there are these options: View: Next message | Previous message Next in topic | Previous in topic Next by same author | Previous by same author Previous menu (November 1996) Main POETICS menu Search Options: Chronological order | Most recent first Proportional font | Non-proportional font ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:11:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:46:01 -0500 from Footnote to Mark's useful comments: there's more info on Grumman's Runaway Spoon press in the small press directory at the epc. http://writing.upenn.edu/epc. I wonder if there's a space where "pluralaesthetic" and anti- or post- aesthetic meet? A "poor" art. I'm thinkin of the interesting essay on Polish poet Alexander Wat in latest NY Review of Bks. Wat began as a sort of Dada experimentalist in 20s ("revolutionary", parodic anti-art). After surviving WWI & gulag, he began writing again in late 40s, 50s. His fascinating poetry is in one version in English I know of. According to C. Milosz, he turned against "difficult", avant-garde art, finding parallels between the avant-garde artist manipulating language & dictators manipulating peoples. (This is a simplification I'm sure on my part.) From the little I've read of his poetry, he works with short lyrics as a form of compression & intensity. Not for art-effects, but to intensify & bring to bear the ironies & strangeness of the history he's experienced. The "problem" of the "artist" trapped in the aesthetic hall of mirrors is a longstanding one. I guess what I'm trying to get at is whether a "plural aesthetic" would include a measure of _realism_ (not 19th century or social realism but something else... experiential?). Authenticity? What's the word for the value of art-work that transcends the categories of "art" & does something to spirit & nature? Becomes part of a wider conversation (or deeper)? (or simpler?) - Henry Gould (ethos, logos, pathos? - please, educate, & "move"?) p.s. I don't have Wat's poems handy. But a harsh example of what I referred to above: his short poem - a little narrative - in which an executioner, axe still bloody, soothes a little child staring at her father's head. Then she carries it on a pole in a parade under the banner "Progress for all peoples - Death to enemies". The poem is dedicated to martyred friends & "thousands of others". I believe it's called something like "20th Century" (could be wrong). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic In-Reply-To: <199611181547.KAA28159@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Don't forget re/poor art, art povera and Germano Celant's surrounding discourse, back in the 70's, and I'd tied that into, say, the makeshift of Cabaret Voltaire in their early days - Alan http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Tel 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:07:06 -0500 Reply-To: jconte@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Conte Organization: SUNY at Buffalo Subject: Dictionary of Literary Biography MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to announce the publication of the second volume in my series on American Poets Since World War II in the _Dictionary of Literary Biography_ series. This is volume 169. Once again, there are substantial entries with biographical, critical, and bibligraphical information on a number of poets of interest to the Poetics List. Several entries were written by List members. The table of contents for this volume includes: Kenneth Sherwood on David Antin Loss Glazier on Charles Bernstein Ed Foster on Ted Berrigan Brett Millier on Elizabeth Bishop and Louise Bogan Mike Basinski on Charles Bukowski Loss Glazier on Robert Creeley Willard Spiegelman on Irving Feldman Peter Quartermain on Kathleen Fraser Laszlo Gefin on Allen Ginsberg Ashley Brown on Anthony Hecht Eric Selinger on Ronald Johnson Elizabeth House on Carolyn Kizer Ashley Brown on Robert Lowell Mark Scroggins on Nathaniel Mackey James McCorkle on W. S. Merwin Keith Tuma on Michael Palmer Robert Friedman on Ishmael Reed Joseph Conte on James Schuyler Diane Middlebrook on Anne Sexton T. C. Marshall on Ron Silliman Susan Schultz on Cathy Song Chris Stroffolino on James Tate Steven Evans on Rosmarie Waldrop Richard Calhoun on Richard Wilbur Andrew Elkins on James Wright As with _DLB 165_, this volume is published by Gale Research Press (Detroit, MI) in hardback only, largely for sale to research, public, and private libraries. I think the price is close to $175 per volume. Hopefully, there's a library near you that carries the _DLB_ series. It's easy (an inexpensive) to photocopy the entries. One final volume edited by me on contemporary poets has nearly been completed and will be published sometime in 1997. I'd be happy to have suggestions and comments about the series backchannel. Joseph Conte jconte@acsu.buffalo.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:21:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Armantrout Abacus Wanted to trumpet Rae Armantrout's new Abacus "from _The Pretext_." Armantrout's ability to lyrically access the daily tangents within recognition's, well, what do I mean here-- something about abstract/concrete -- for example: "compact as the present/ in the mouth of an anchorperson." There is a quality of _observation_ more than description. Description seems to put the accent on the exterior-- Armantrout seems to work in that area where the perception enters/alters the person-- many poets do but few with such finite intensity. The question of the duration of that altering also included-- and the multiplicity & response. Not a machine made of words. Too exact to be a machine. One can't quote at length because the whole is also a part in a way that rings because real. What it is-- ok, abstract/concrete -- credulity/incredulity _blurred_ into human being (being being a verb)-- "Hell is unredeemed experience?" "Just one/ knock at a door/ when usually it's three." "Astronomers know/ a signal's/ not an answer." Not glamorous, just amazing. --Rod Order from Potes & Poets, 181 Edgemont Ave., Elmwood CT 06110. A mere four dollars. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic <> I think this is a great statement -- but bringsd into question ART AS PROPAGANDA. LR films and such... which I'm sure we can agree are ART and DIRECT PROPAGANDA. A few years ago their was an anthology that put the politics of poetic form into question. the idea that the art of this propaganda is <> is very ODD to me. The POINT of politics/poetics in this mileu, post language, post structure, post post whatever seems to be OUTSIDE of these issues. Prose or poetry that delves into these issues, revealing, whatever is PROPAGANDA is giving the artists point-of-veiw as possessor of a knowledge that someone else does not possess. I don't know if I can handle that, but it is done -- regularly. Esp. at the open mic... I wonder where glossalalia fits into propagandite poesy?? Hmmmmmm. Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:38:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic Pluralaesthetic... Sounds great on paper. Unfortunately, I sense that it would be incredibly boring in performance. Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:54:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Spicer's Language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is Dodie Bellamy. Artist Fran Herndon has turned over to Small Press Traffic a box of Spicer's White Rabbit book *Language.* She would like us to sell these books to people who would really appreciate them. These books are brand new, never having seen the light of day since they were packaged in 1965. We're asking $30 plus $2 for shipping and handling. This is cheaper than the battered copies that you'll find in bookstores. Checks should be made to Small Press Traffic and mailed to: Small Press Traffic at New College 766 Valencia San Francisco, CA 94110 415/437-3454 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Naropa Grads/Keroauc School Students OUT THERE This is Bil Brown, If you were a hanger on at the Poetics program at The Naropa Institute betwixt the years of 1991-1995 HELLO I was working in the writing office and doing various other things and I want to know where my friends are. I have heard from Jay Schwartz, but I want to know where the rest of you are!! I am currently in Louisville, KY and working diligently to get this poetry community to a standard that I see in the rest of the country. Recently, this has brought me to be asked to start a POETICS PROGRAM at a community center (directing & whatnot) and I want to bring people here, NOW. I have been workshoping writers in Performance, Experiment, Ethnopoetics, Investigative Poetics ... BUT I NEED MORE HELP. It is very difficult to be the ONLY one that knows what the HELL I am talking about here, outside of the university. EMAIL ME, TELL ME WHERE YOU ARE NAROPA GRADS!! Yours in deed, Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 14:21:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch Subject: Re: Naropa Grads/Keroauc School Students OUT THERE Bil, "The ONLY one that knows whats going on?" My feelings are hurt!! *sniff* Paul ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:27:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: Re: Well Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill - You post seems related to the that on-going thread about politics and poetry so I thought I'd mention an article about the mechanism of poetry's affect on politics - (I didn't know the citation of the piece at the time of the earlier postings -) The author, Robert Kaufman is a reader of the kind of writing represented on this list. The article is "Legislators of the Post-Everything World: Shelley's DEFENCE of Adorno," ELH, 63 (1996) 707-733. The article may also be seen to relate to John Gerat's mention of complexity theory. The connection being that a thing does not need to be seen or read by the maximun number of people to have an important, even crucial, effect. >I am interested in what ppl think about POETICS in relationship to an >audience outside of other poets. > >e.g. the last few years with the Spoken Word trad. and Perf-Po musings: >obviously ALL of this is obsolete almost immediately. To infuse >social-anarcho change, using the role of the media/mediated and creating a >true discourse: do we have to come outside of the academy, even the NEW >academies like Buffalo, New School SF, and Naropa? Street poetics, >performance art slams, preaching poetics... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 15:33:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Well In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:27:15 -0800 from On Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:27:15 -0800 Laura Moriarty said: > >"Legislators of the Post-Everything World: Shelley's DEFENCE of Adorno," >ELH, 63 (1996) 707-733. > >The article may also be seen to relate to John Gerat's mention of >complexity theory. The connection being that a thing does not need to be >seen or read by the maximun number of people to have an important, even >crucial, effect. > Maybe poetry is always already pluralaesthetic, in that through poetry language gives poets a material to shape just as painters use paint. & the "crucial effect" for the poet at least is inherent in the material. The realized poem is sufficient & ready to provide its MOST crucial effect: its reading. We go back to the chunk of puddingstone thrown into the river, but since the river keeps moving, the ripple effects are hard to measure (somebody keeps throwing the rulers into the water too). Then we follow the rock down to the riverbed, only to realize that the poem was actually something somebody just called across overhead, didn't even touch the water. Go fish. There may be a great divide between what poetry means to poets & what it means to societies at large. But there's plenty of room in language for both of them to get lost. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 16:01:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CupsLit@AOL.COM Subject: Edward Dahlberg Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU "We are too often reminded that many people have all of Baudelaire's abnormalities and are not artists but just hapless bores." -- Edward Dahlberg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 20:28:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: Naropa Grads/Keroauc School Students OUT THERE HAHA. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 23:18:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: space aesthetica Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:35 PM 11/18/96 +0900, John Geraets wrote: >a nagoyan friend Matthew Taylor, enthusiastic about Richard Dawkins's >"biomorphs" work and complexity theory in general, came >up with some stimulating defns regarding creativity isn't richard dawkins the dead host of family fued? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 10:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Re: EPR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Electronic Poetry Review website is alive -- or at least available as of ten minutes ago anyway -- at www.poetry.com. The first "issue" is one of the more eclectic lit mags I've seen, with work from Armantrout, Giscombe, Hejinian, Killian and other names familiar to this list alongside Bidart, Jane Miller and others. They've really made an effort to represent the spectrum, whatever that might be. To my knowledge, though, the site has never been officially announced. The Web address was given to contributors back in the summer so they could proofread their work, but the issue looks finished to me. P.S. to David & other EPR contributors -- I also have had poems pending there for months (ditto for RIF/T, for that matter), and a review in the first issue. (I also share your ethics, which means that I'm lucky if a group of poems manages to be seen by more than one mag in a year.) If Katherine Swiggart's address isn't working, try the one noted on the Web site itself. (I'd copy it here, but it's written in tiny italics and my glasses aren't handy.) >Dear > >You probably don't know me, but I seem to remember you accidentally sent >a copy of some work meant for the Electronic Poetry Review to the POETICS >list many months ago. > >I'm just wondering if you've every heard anything from those folks. I >submitted some work myself, and on realizing how long it has been I sent >some emails off to the editors -- one was returned as being an invalid >address (the kswiggert or kwsiggart address), & the generic epr address >got no response. Their web site seems to have stalled in April as well. > >I have a probably-overdeveloped sense of ethics that prevents me from >sending material out when it's under consideration elsewhere, so I'm just >trying my best to make sure EPR is really alive (or not) before I take >any other action with the work... > >Anyway, if you happen to know anything I'd sure be interested... > >Thanks, > >David. > >-- >dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu >David Golumbia Fred Muratori Reference Services Division Olin - Kroch - Uris Libraries Cornell University fmm1@cornell.edu http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ************************** "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important" -- Jon Ashbery ************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 11:07:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Inman Reading/Talk @ Bridge Street Bridge Street Books & Aerial Magazine present SUNDAY NOVEMBER 24th at 8 PM a reading/talk by P. Inman author of _Criss Cross_, _Vel_, _Red Shift_, _Think of One_, _Uneven Development_, & _Ocker_. "P. Inman's mind is a thoroughly attached organ." --Diane Ward Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington DC 20007. 5 blocks from Foggy Bottom Metro stop. ph 202 965 5200. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 17:25:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: Well <> BUT it is OUR responsibility to HAVE SOCIETY PAY ATTENTION TO US -- as poets, as writers. - bil ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 16:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: way, wave, wavy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Just want to acknowledge Anselm Hollo's wonderful elegy for Larry Eigner in the latest "Exquisite Corpse." (Along with other groovy poems). Thanks Anselm! Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 19:02:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: Anselm So, does anyone know if Anselm checks his email... or this list?? Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 06:36:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ward Tietz <100723.3166@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Glossolalia On Monday, November 18, Bil Brown wrote, "I wonder where glossalalia fits into propagandite poesy??" Vincent Barras' article in the Swiss-French journal Equinoxe (no 14, Autumn 1995) investigates some of this in an article entitled "Glossolalies? La Glotte Y Sonne Un Hallali!," (Glossolalias? The Glottis Sounds the Kill!) in which he starts off by saying, "Un point commun entre les pentecotistes, les spirites, les possedes, les schizophrenes, les enfants et les poetes: la glossolalie, qu'en theologie on appelle parfois 'parler en langues.' Le pluriel marque precisement l'utopie d'une langue universelle, comprise de tous, rassemblant et annulant toutes les langues a la fois, mais aussi, du fait de cette simultaneite, supprimant la langue, ou du moins sa portee de signification, au profit de sa seule enveloppe sonore." "A common point between the Pentecosts, spiritualists, the possessed, schizophrenics, children and poets: glossolalia, which in theology one sometimes calls "speaking in tongues." The plural marks precisely the utopia of a universal language, comprised of everything, collecting and canceling all languages at the same time, but also, due to this simultaneity, suppressing language or at least its capacity to signify, to the profit of its sole sonic envelope." (my translation) Vincent is both a medical historian and a sound poet, which makes for some rather amazing observations. He'll also be participating, coincidentally, in a performance/conference "spectacle" in Annecy, France on November 21st which studies the case of the nineteenth-century medium Helene Smith, who spoke, according to the brochure I have, Sanscrit, Martian, Ultra-martian and Uranian. Ward Tietz ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 23:57:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: Glossolalia In-Reply-To: <961119113658_100723.3166_EHU81-1@CompuServe.COM> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Not to devour a dead horse, but back in 1971 I did a long piece called Typed Glossolalia - going into a trance-state and typing "randomly" for around 8000 characters. The inner 4000 were then analyzed with time series analysis among other techniques, looking for evidence of repetitive pat- terns, beyond the doubled (jkjkjk etc.) of alternating fingers; none were found. This was used in a critique of determinism in human and other org- anisms. Part of the text & commentary were published in pamphlet. There was no spirit come to haunt, flaunt, or daunt. Alan http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Tel 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 02:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: AZ Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU I'm out here in Tempe for a week, with gigs Wed @Kerr Cultural Center and Sat at Gammage. Samantha Coerbell, Tracie Morris, Edwin Torres are here too. Dew drop inn, and is there anything else happening here? Backchannel, svp... Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:57:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: grumman / wat In-Reply-To: <199611190505.AAA19340@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII henry et al. -- where can a body get a looksee at their stuff? anthologies, journals, chaps? tom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 07:59:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: grumman / wat In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 19 Nov 1996 00:57:46 -0500 from Bob Grumman's press Runaway Spoon is listed in the "Small Press" section at EPC - http://writing.upenn.edu/epc on the web. Others I'm sure can give more info. If you can check the archives there were posts here a few days back from Jeff Hansen and others about Grumman's work. A selection of Wat's poetry came out in English translated by Czeslaw Milosz: Wat, Aleksandr With the Skin Ecco Press, 1989 there's also his oral history autobiography (with Milosz) called My Century, remarkable life. & there's a new biography just out in English by Tomas Venklova (sp?) "Aleksander Wat" something something... - HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:39:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: EPR Web Address Correction Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My apologies to the list for transmitting erroneous info. The correct address for the Electronic Poetry Review web site is: http://www.poetry.org/ Works fine as of 8:40 a.m. Wednesday. -- FM *********************** Fred Muratori "Certain themes are incurable." (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division - Lyn Hejinian Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html *********************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 10:39:46 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry Rothenberg Subject: query Comments: cc: jrothenb@ucsd.edu If anybody out there has the information to hand, we're looking for a clean copy (the typeset version) of Olson's Plan for a Curriculum of the Soul. It's in our manuscript for volume two of Millennium and came out of my stack of Olson books etc., but I can't for the moment put my hands on it and very much need it for insertion (as is) into the finished book. Back channel would certainly be okay for this one, at jrothenb@carla.ucsd.edu or joris@csc.albany.edu. Muchas gracias jr ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 16:27:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: sad news about Meridel Le Sueur i am forwarding a note i received from my friend jo grant at bookzen. meridel le sueur has died. it is hard news, though she is very old and has led an incredibly rich, giving life. it is hard to think there will be no new stories, poems, essays. her work is, like that of tillie olson, judy grahn, adrienne rich, pat parker, audre lord, an unflinching, careful, strong writing of women's lives with a particular tender, lyric quality of its own. i am sometimes reminded of sarah orne jewett when i read her gentle, image-filled text, and yet her words also have the anger and social ferocity of dreiser, of the vietnam poets and writers, of sharon olds and dorothy allison. i try and describe her in terms of other writers, other texts, because i am trying to hold on to her, connect her so tha it won't feel as if she has gone quite so far. i know jo grant and her family would be moved to hear any words anyone would like to send in tribute to, or memory of, meridel. you may reach them at the address in jo's mailing (appended). ---------------------------------- From jgrant@bookzen.com Mon Nov 18 01:56:50 1996 Return-Path: jgrant@bookzen.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:00:06 -0600 Subject: Meridel Le Sueur: 1900-1996 Friends, Very sad to inform the many Iowa Citians who were friends of Meridel LeSueur that she died yesterday. For those who attended her last appearence in Iowa City, at Old Brick, during her final Iowa Tour will remember her telling us: "I was born at the beginning of the swiftest and bloodiest century at Murray, Iowa, in a white square puritan house in the corn belt, of two physically beautiful people who had come west through the Indian and the Lincoln country, creating the new race of the Americas by enormous and rugged and gay matings with the Dutch, the Indian, the Irish; being preachers, abolitionists, agrarians, radical lawyers on the Lincoln, Illinois, circuit. "Dissenters and democrats and radicals through five generations. Meridel LeSueur - 1900-1996 That night at Old Brick Meridel spoke about the years of being blacklisted by McCarthy and the difficult time she and her children had trying to survive during the reign of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. At one point her agent told her she could sell more books if she would write like Ernest Hemingway. She responded "I would, but I have better things to do with my time than write about fighting, fishing and fucking." A feminist decades before the term entered everyday use, she spent her life on the front line fighting for the rights of women, minorities, Native Americans, gays and the disabled. A review of her most recent book, THE DREAD ROAD, and an article about her can be found at www.bookzen.com. Both have been downloaded by newspapers from around the world, along with embarassingly few from the U.S. The book review is at: The article is at: Both were written by Chuck Miller. When Meridel read them she was so touched she cried. It was rare when anything as insightful as Miller's article and review had ever been written about her. After many hours of audio and video recording of Meridel over a period of 13 years it was the first time I witnessed her crying. But what a life... As a young girl she marched with Mother Bloor in Colorado to protest the massacre of miners and their families at Ludlow; during her early teens lived with Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman; grew up a prolitarian writer who counted as her friends: Agnes Smedley, Josephine Herbst, Nelson Algren, Grace Lumpkin, Upton Sinclair, Jack Conroy, Richard Wright, Zona Gale, Theodore Drieser, Kenneth Fearing, Mari Sandoz...Boris Israel and too many others to name here. Her grandfather, whose wife was identified only as a squaw--since the state of Ohio didn't include names of Native Americans who married white men--was a friend of John Chapman (Johnny Appleseed).... I've gone on too long. I'll close with this quote from Miller's article: "Henry Miller, Keraouc and Bukowski are all dead. There is no one else left of LeSueur's stature in American literature today. She stands alone, a giant, waiting to be discovered by her own nation." Amen to thjat, or rather, A(wo)men! If anyone does not have access to the World Wide Web E-mail me and I will send the article and the review by return mail. All of Meridel's books are in Special Collections at the main UI library if the Iowa City Public Library doesn't have them. Some people have contacted me and asked if they can share thoughts about Meridel and have them posted where their friends could find them and respond. We're setting it up with all comments being printed and copies being placed in the LeSueur collections in MN, WI & IA. j grant --------------- E, Don't hesitate to share this with any friends who know about Meridel. Peace and love, joe --------------- Authors & publishers display books free at http://www.bookzen.com 10,877 visitors 10-28 to 11-03 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 18:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Ear Inn Reading Report nov 16 Last friday night Drew Gardner had a cold. He played drums at Biblios with his hands. The Poets watched and drank beer. They smoked. They read popular magazines and Klaus Kinsky. After jazz the poets went to Sophies, occupied the window and talked. The poets got a table and sat. The poets sat in the window and kissed. Urging was done by the poets because one poet wanted to go home. The poets bought one poet more drinks. Saturday morning the poets called in search of the blood brain barrier. They learned that one poet had made out with another poet who had made out with Allen Ginsberg. After the calling, they gathered and discussed psychological testing. Arguments were passed to the back end, the DSM was referenced and poetry books with illustrations were consulted. The poets who had headaches were massaged, drank water & smoked more cigarettes. In the Afternoon the poets saw themselves at the Ear Inn. The workers at the Ear Inn do not like the poets. The bartender at the Ear Inn is a poet and doesn't like it when the poets start readings late. A poet pointed out that Armand Schwerner sat at a table. Drew Gardner began to read. Once he said devil. Another time the mind of god. And before that the arms of my lover. His poems were described by one poet as about thinking. Another poet didn't have a comment. The poets were pleased by his beautiful changeups. The poets put $3 in a basket. After counting, there were $64 for the poets and $25 for the workers. The poets socialized. The workers worked. Chuck Stein was described as having written the Hat Rack Tree. Chuck give whale advice. Drew invented this because he took esoteric classes with Chuck. Chuck explained his idea of a project not a long work but the things you do. He talked about small press publishing, Jack Clark and Hermes Coyote. If it doesn't bite don't believe its wolf teeth gate the god speech Chuck said how your old hat sits on the hat rack tree. Now you go to buy a new hat. Should it be just like it? One poet wore a raiders hat and hugged another. After Chuck, the poets were urged to come back next week to hear Patricia Jones and Lydia Davis. They were also urged to pay their bills, tip big, and leave the room so the workers could set up for dinner. The poets walked to the sitting area at Brothers and drank. A few poets walked around looking for one another and talked when they were found. The poets irritated the poets and made them laugh. On Sunday the poets ate carribean food and went to the Brooklyn Moon. There were no snakes in a tree poem read by a poet. Hundreds of tiny halos surrounded the figs. After the reading the poets talked about Michele Wallace and irony. One poet shaved his mustache and another poet won a nickel. The poets were very relaxed. At night the poets took the F train to a party. One poet left a hat on the seat hoping that it would go to queens. Another poet left one at the party. The poets went home, confessed & didn't get much sleep. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 09:44:12 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic glad to have both mark & henry's 'marks on "pluraesthetic"; & i think it's right on the money to connect politics w/ institutionalized genre restraints... which segue allows me to recommend issue #3 of Chain (215 Ashland Ave., Buffalo NY 14222), th second volume ov which arrived a coupla days ago & well worth th wait... devoted to hybrid genre's/mixed media... cd instead be used as a definition of pluraesthetics, if such wasnt a contradiction in terms... luigi ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:31:54 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: SCARP 29 (forwarded) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SCARP 29 SCARP 29 is now available through Australian Writing On Line It features -an article by Pamela Johnston on issues of ownership & aboriginal languages -an interview with Deb Westbury -short stories by C S Hams, B N Difonzo and Tim Griggs - poems by over twenty poets, including John Malone, Jennifer Compton, S K Kelen, John Millett, Mark O'Flynn and many others - reviews of books by John Kinsella, Marcelle Freiman, Thomas Shapcott, Carolyn Gerrish, Warrick Wynne and joanne burns To order SCARP 29 through the AWOL Virtual Bookshop simply printy this post, add your name and address, attach a checque for AUST$8.00 and mail it to AWOL, PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137. (overseas orders - please contact us first for international charges). and feel free to visit our Virtual Bookshop at our website (we undertaking major construction there at the moment so wear your hard hat!) AWOL Australian Writing On Line awol@ozemail.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 Fax 61 2 7472802 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:31:18 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: AWOL: Lexicon 2 (forwarded) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lexicon 2 Lexicon 2 is now available through Australian Writing On Line. Lexicon 2 continues were the first issue left off with a feast of writing from new writers from Australia and overseas. Poetry by Jan Marshall, Ben Ohmart, Catherine Moore-Lin, Greg Bogaerts Adriana Rivera, Samantha Kingsley, Xavier Toby and others. Prose by Norma Knight, Greggory Moore, Dustin Thompson, Jane Crofts, Stefaine Bennett and many others. Of course there's the Editor's Choice - this issue its Sonia Haddock's 'Hamburgers for Dinner' - and of course the crossword. To order Lexicon 2 through the AWOL Virtual Bookshop simply printy this post, add your name and address, attach a checque for AUST$5.95 (includes $1 postage) and mail it to AWOL, PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137. (overseas orders - please contact us first for international charges). Or you can tell your favourite bookshop to order a copy through AWOL. and feel free to visit our Virtual Bookshop at our website (we undertaking major construction there at the moment so wear your hard hat!) AWOL Australian Writing On Line awol@ozemail.com.au http://www.ozemail.com.au/~awol PO Box 333 Concord NSW 2137 Australia Phone 61 2 7475667, Mobile 015063970 Fax 61 2 7472802 Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:37:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Having a goad time -- wish I were there In-Reply-To: <199611210507.AAA07594@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Did any of you New Yorkers attend the Tongues of Fire Choir event? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 23:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Eleni Sikelianos, John Wieners (Poetry City 11/7) Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.CC.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A capacity crowd (110) turned up Thursday, November 7, 7 p.m., to hear Eleni Sikelianos read with John Wieners. It was a good thing both poets were there. Eleni read for about twenty-seven minutes. She read eleven or twelve pieces. She wore black platform shoes, black pants, and a peach silk top. "I bet you didn't know you were in for some essays," she said, about four poems into the reading. "Are you ready? There's no thesis statement," she continued, launching into "No One the Washing Machine", "Now We Will Speak of the Various Parties," "The Auto-Portrait at Half Day," and "Letting the Blood Drop," among other essays. Although I was not the one to escort John Wieners to the office, I was still somehow very nervous and could not take notes. I caught the line, "I compare my state of being to the state of Kansas," and then, "nothing to protect us from ambient creatures," but not much else. Eleni was very poised. About halfway through her reading, she asked the audience, "How are you doing?" A recovering-from-pneumonia Tim Davis piped up, "Never better!" "Then get home!" Eleni said. John Wieners himself led one of the two rounds of applause that met Eleni's reading. There was an intermission. We sold several books. The calvados I brought from home went like that. Among the milling were Tom Savage, Bruce Andrews, Sam Truitt, Brenda Coultas, Brian Kim Stefans, Bill Luoma, Josh Galef, Brigham Taylor, Brendan Corber, Rochelle Kraut, Steve Dalachinsky, Raymond Foye, Kim Rosenfield, Rob Fitterman, Tim Davis, Liz Fodaski, Marcella Durand, Rich O'Russa, Carol Szamatowicz and I think David Henderson. The place was mobbed. Simon Pettet watched over John for me. Enough time elapsed. Anna Malmude said "I am very happy to introduce John Wieners." He read for eighteen minutes and fourteen seconds, according to Raymond Foye. He opened with a request: "Billy." He read from his Cape Goliard book. It was not easy to tell which parts of what he said were poems. I spent most of the reading fiddling with the av equipment to try and broadcast John's small wavering voice to the back of the room. There was one burst of feedback, oops. And then there was a sforzando on the word 'Roses.' At four points during the reading, John interrupted his very clear and pleasant metrics to carry lines way out past where one would expect them to stop. That was beautiful. Some people told me they just had to leave when he lit up during his reading. I don't know. I caught bits about Copley Square (?) and other Boston geography. I couldn't say exactly why, but I wanted very much to cry the whole time. Afterwards, John signed a lot of books. Somebody was reading _707 Scott Street_, John's late 50s early 60s journal transcribed by Lewis Warsh and published by Sun & Moon, and John asked to see it, not having seen it yet. John told Eleni that it was good he remembered her from the novel. Bill Luoma helped me walk John back to the hotel, we said we'd catch up with Eleni and company at the Cedar. On the way, some people in costume passed by. I asked John what he went as on Halloween when he was young. "A dog ... then Frederick's of Hollywood." Bill asked John a few questions, and I did too. We brought John to his room, a suite on I think the eleventh floor. Bill hugged him and gave him a kiss, and I hugged him. John asked whether I'd be bringing him to Port Authority. The plane ride in was too hard for a man as old as him, he said, and the train is "very nice, very beautiful. Too nice." So the bus. The Cedar's remodeling job is terrible. No smoking, no big group-style seating accomodated. The skylights are all right, I guess, and the girders that replaced the logs make more sense, are less disturbing. The waitress was really difficult. Bill pegged her as a sociology grad student. Eleni didn't know Anna and I were engaged, so we got that attention bonus. Karl Parker and Seph Rodney were too far away for me to talk to them. Laird Hunt was talking to Eleni and the others. The next day, I met John at check out time. Raymond Foye had been by. Pharcyde was checking out. John came out of the elevator, we signed out, and caught a Honda cab. I told John his reading was very beautiful, and he said "Well, you get used to the failures." I asked him if he would like me to call someone in Boston to come pick him up from the bus stop, and he said "No, it's good for me to do things like that for myself now and then." Seeing a lucid interval open up, I asked him about some of the long lines, and he said, "Yes, he was a stocky man who made hats, and was a transvestite by the Canadian border." The cab arrived at Port Authority, and he held the place on line while I bought him a pack of Kents. We waited as the ticket clerks flirted with the teenage girls going back to Boston. I got John a ticket about three minutes before the bus left, and we got down to the gate as they were boarding the last five people. We hugged, and he said, "You get home safely now. I'll see you again before long." Jordan Davis ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 10:06:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Subject: Re: infraverbal, pluralaesthetic Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:38 PM 11/18/96 -0500, you wrote: >Pluralaesthetic... > >Sounds great on paper. Unfortunately, I sense that it would be incredibly >boring in performance. > >Bil Brown > Does "sound great" on paper, which leads me to believe it would look, or read great in performance as well. I think that's the point -- to synthesize eye/ear engagements with the word. Can't imagine that would be boring in any format. bill marsh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:39:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Cave Art in the French Dordogne Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT! PREHISTORIC CAVE ART OF THE FRENCH DORDOGNE An Unforgettable Journey led by Poet Clayton Eshleman with Special Guest Lecturers Anne Waldman and Andrew Schelling May 27th - June 10th, 1997 What is Included: * A comprehensive program of informal lectures, cave visits, field trips, and excursions. * Expertise of distinguished American poet Clayton Eshleman (including six lectures) and his wife Caryl who have done extensive research on the cave art of the Dordogne region of Southwestern France. * Seperate guest lectures by Anne Waldman and Andrew Schelling. * Four nights hotel accommodations in Paris, double occupancy at a three star hotel. * 10 nights hotel accommodations, double occupancy at the Hotel Cro-Magnon in Les Eyzies. * Ten four-course dinners and continental breakfasts at the Hotel Cro-Magnon. * All transfers, taxes and porterage. * All admissions to sites per itinerary. Costs: (Per Person) Land Arrangements: $3,495 (based on double occupancy) Single room supplement approx. $ 500 additional One additional night's hotel accommodations returning to Paris on June 3, 1997.- Approx. $l00 additional (based on double occupancy) Note: Participants are responsible for making their own air travel arrangements to and from Paris. Payment Deadlines: Registration/Deposit Deadline February 1st, 1997 Please Note!!: Space is Limited, therefore, early registration is suggested. Balance Due March 15, 1997 To receive more information and an application form, please contact: Eastern Michigan University Office of Academic Programs Abroad 332 Goodison Hall Ypsilanti, MI 48197 or by e-mail at: programs.abroad@emich.edu or call us, toll-free at: 1-800-777-3541 Also, please look for for new and updated information about the Summer 1997 Cave Art Program on the World Wide Web at the following site: http://www.emich.edu/public/cont_ed/alumni.html ******************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 14:48:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Inman reading/talk @ Bridge Street Bridge Street Books & Aerial Magazine present SUNDAY NOVEMBER 24th at 8 PM a reading/talk by P. Inman author of _Criss Cross_, _Vel_, _Red Shift_, _Think of One_, _Uneven Development_, & _Ocker_. "P. Inman's mind is a thoroughly attached organ." --Diane Ward Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington DC 20007. 5 blocks from Foggy Bottom Metro stop. ph 202 965 5200. --sent this yesterday & it seemed to disappear. apologies if double-posted. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:54:47 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Labor orgzg. & Banned by Borders- Michael Moore (fwd) Comments: To: poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This seems to be appearing everywhere. good! gab. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Forwarded message: > > >From The Nation: > > Banned by Borders > by Michael Moore > > On November 9, as I write this, I was supposed to have > been at the Borders bookstore in Fort Lauderdale, > Florida, speaking and signing copies of my book > Downsize This! Random Threats from an Unarmed > American. It was to have been the final stop of my > forty-seven-city tour. But on October 30 I was told that > the book-signing had been canceled. The Fort > Lauderdale Borders had received a memo from its > corporate headquarters in Ann Arbor, Michigan, > banning me from speaking or signing at any Borders > store in the country. > > When I was growing up in Michigan, the original > Borders was a store that actively championed free > expression. In fact, when I was publishing the > Michigan Voice, Borders would carry my paper when > other establishments would not. Now, Borders is a > huge nationwide chain, and its "liberal" views have > earned it the reputation as the "Ben & Jerry's of the > book chains." > > So why was I banned from Borders? My book was > doing well. It has been on the New York Times > best-seller list for a month and was the number two > best-selling Random House book for the entire Borders > chain.. I've been banned, I found out, because I made > the mistake of uttering a five-letter word, the dirtiest > word in all of corporate America -- "union." > > Back in September, on the second day of my tour, > when I arrived at the Borders store in downtown > Philadelphia, I found nearly 100 people picketing the > place because Borders had fired a woman named > Miriam Fried. She had led a drive to organize workers > at the store into a union. The effort failed, and, a few > weeks later, Miriam was given the boot. > > When I found this out I told the Borders people that I > have never crossed a picket line and would not cross > this one. I asked the demonstrators if they wanted to > take the protest inside. They thought it was a good idea. > I had no desire to cause a ruckus, so I asked Borders > management if it was O.K. to allow the protesters in. > They said yes. So we all came into the store, I gave my > talk, I gave Miriam the microphone so she could talk, > everyone behaved themselves and it was a good day all > around -- including for Borders, which ended up selling > a lot of books, breaking the record for a noontime > author at that location. (The record had been held by > George Foreman, and I now like to tell people only Ali > and I have beaten Foreman.) I also announced that I > would donate all my royalties for the day to help Miriam > out. > > Although Anne Kubek, Borders' corporate V.P. in > charge of labor relations, had approved my bringing the > protesters inside, upper management decided that she > had made a mistake -- and they were going to take it out > on me. On the following Tuesday I was scheduled to > speak at the new Borders store in New York's World > Trade Center. When I arrived, I was met by two > Borders executives. They had flown in from Michigan > just to stop me from speaking. The executives, flanked > by two security guards, explained that I could come into > the store and sign books, but I would not be allowed to > talk to the people who had come to hear me. They said > that the "commotion" I had caused in Philly raised > "security concerns." I couldn't believe I was being > censored in a bookstore. > > The Borders manager told the assembled crowd that I > would not be speaking because "Port Authority police > and fire marshals have banned all daytime gatherings at > Borders." When I heard this, I stepped forward and told > the people this was a lie, that I was forbidden to speak > because of my support for the workers in Philly. Under > protest, I signed the books of those who stayed -- > beneath a big banner celebrating "Banned Books > Week." > > On October 13, I spoke to a large crowd in a Des > Moines auditorium. After the speech I went out front > and started signing books. "What store are these from?" > I innocently asked. "Oh, these are from the local > Borders," I was told. Well, I thought, they don't mind > if I make them some money -- as long as it's not on > their premises! Then someone slipped me an > anonymous note. It read: "We are employees of the Des > Moines Borders. We were told that we could not work > the book table tonight, that only management was > working the table, because they said they wanted to > 'protect us' from you." > > An hour later, I went out to the parking lot and saw > some people standing there in the dark -- the employees > from the Des Moines Borders! They said they were > hiding out there because they had spotted Borders' > regional director with another man inside. "He flew in > to spy on you, or us, or both," they told me. "He saw > us so we may not have jobs on Monday." (Bookstore > employees afraid they might be fired for attending a > public speech at the Herbert Hoover High School > auditorium!) The executive had not introduced himself > to me -- or his colleague, who employees believe is a > unionbusting "consultant" hired by Borders. > > I wished the workers well, and the next night they held > their first union meeting. The previous week, the > Borders store in the Lincoln Park section of Chicago > had become the first Borders in the country to vote in a > union (United Food and Commercial Workers). > Recently, workers in Des Moines signed enough cards > to hold a union election. It is a victory that should > inspire not only Borders workers but underpaid > employees everywhere. That's why I am not in Fort > Lauderdale as I write this. Borders is "protecting" its > workers from me. > > Well, they're really going to need protection now. First, > I am donating my royalties from the next 1,000 sales of > Downsize This! to the organizing drive at Borders. > Second, I am asking each of you to support the Borders > workers in your city. Bring up the union when you're > in the store and thank that kid with the nose ring and > green hair for helping to revive the labor movement in > America. > > Note to Borders Executives: If, after this column is > published, you retaliate by removing my book from > your shelves, or hiding it in the "humor" section or > underreporting its sales to the New York Times list, I > will come at you with everything I've got. You > sandbagged me in Philly, and the only decent way for > you to resolve this is to give Miriam Fried her job back > and let the workers form their union without > intimidation or harassment. > -- ********************************************************************** Talmadge Wright (312)508-3451 * Dept. of Sociology & Anthropology FAX:(312)508-3646 * Loyola University Chicago twright@orion.it.luc.edu * 6525 N. Sheridan Rd. * Chicago, Illinois 60626 * ********************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:21:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: l%a*n(g@u!a_g#e In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII would any of my american friends be able to help me locate a copy of the LANGUAGE(='s) anthology. please backchannel. thank you, kevin hehir angelo@mustang.uwo.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 20:41:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: the poets and land and landing poets In-Reply-To: <961120183159_1816248093@emout05.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i just received my copy of GRAIN today. i realize that this an american based talkgroup but i must ask: the new poems i read today have a real feel of landscape, climate and enviroment that become a very comfortable parentheses within which the voice frolics and grooves. my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean cowboy poetry)? (2) are there any prairie poets who,have been able to transcend the lingo of the farm/slough/seasons/quanset(sp?) hut/hockey/trapping/chiasmustic seasonal changes. as a transplanted gopher chaser i am finding it harder to find a voice that somehow negotiates the two. cheers, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 01:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: mind/body Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anybody work out that Mind/Body problem yet? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:35:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: annoying mail from chronotope.com In-Reply-To: <199611210507.AAA07594@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sorry to trouble the list with this, but does anyone know where these things are coming from, why they are being sent to the people on this list, and how it can be stopped? Thanks, Tom (P.S. Thanks for the tips on Grumman and Wat!) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:14:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: queer beats speaking of john wieners (thank you jordan for your lovely portrait) i went to the queer beats symposium in sf this past weekend. kevin k was one of the convener/symposiacs and he looked lovely in a beige suit w/ his hair falling debonairly over one eye. hints of mod london era. it was raining as it had been in minneapolis but twas 30 degrees warmer which made a big difference. i fretted over lipstick color and bought a new one at a place called "escentuals" which we don' have in mpls, but it didn't really work with my shirt, whose color i keep mistaking for more brickish than it is, in fact its red is more bluish. however nobody said anything derogatory about my lipstick at least not to my face throughout the entire day. so let's see: first panel: very smart earl jackson jr who i barely recognized, who used to work at umn and now at ucsc, talked about burroughs cutup as a specifically gay strategy. steve silberman gave a sweet talk about allen g's relative "emotional blankness" during his later erotic lyrics and other stuff, also a critique of kerouac's gay scenes in cody. bruce x (formerly boone) was touchingly abject speaking of touching abjection, notably wieners, with much late-antiquity and some bataille musings on the relationship of writerly and sexual masochism's place in religious aspiration. boone is a formidably well read person. so is jackson. last but first, the magnificent lenore kandel made a rare appearance and talked about the trial of the Love Book, in which legal officials seriously argued over whether angels have sex and if there was sex after death. then there was lunch, which were grilled vegetable sandwiches, good but too oily. i palled around w/ michael davidson and met bob gluck, and kevin introduced me to scott watson who had known russell fitzgerald who had known bob kaufman. then the next panel featured davidson, who gave a nice queerified version of his Orono paper that had some guys behind me oohing and ahhing and saying that talk made the whole conference for them. a guy who looked younger than he was, in hiphop ski cap, read a memoir about his friendship w/ burroughs. ginsberg showed up in the audience to hear him. then a cute guy from dartmouth, ricardo ortiz, talked about john rechy and jim morrison, postulating an aesthetic relationship between them by way of L.A. hustler culture. it was charming and fun but probably the least convincing of all of the papers up to that point, not that its implausible but that it was sketchy. then harold norse, me, and scott watson. harold read from his wonderful memoir that has gone out of print like everything else he's written, scott watson showed slides of north beach artists like fran herndon, jess and tom fields etc, while postulating smartly and too modestly that gay sensibility of the time was manifest in a reimagining of childhood. i talked about bob kaufman and russell fitzgerald, using plato's symposium as a frame. i did n't get to the second part of my paper, the "influence study" part, so was mostly gossippy. of course i felt that my paper was the weakest of the day but i was having such a good time i didn't care. then a nice dinner at gluck's house, where i got to shmooze w/ kush, dodie, scott watson and bruce x, whom i kept disappointing by not having read various late antiquity philosophers. it had stopped raining by the time i left bob gluck's and it was warm. sf is truly magical.--md --kevin, do you have anything to add? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:35:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Crash! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------6BD33B025CAD" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6BD33B025CAD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently saw info (on another list, can't remember which one, off hand) re how Ted Turner had done his best to prevent Cronenberg's movie of JG Ballard's novel CRASH to be shown in these States -- here just in from a London friend how the movie of a book I liked a lot (way back when it came out -- tho I always preferred THE ATROCITY EXHIBITION --) is doing, or rather not doing, in London -- hope this longish web-post attachment isn't blowing anyone's memory fuses, &/or is readable on non-web-based mailers -- Pierre -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko --------------6BD33B025CAD Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from iris.arcadis.be (iris.arcadis.be [195.7.0.251]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA05831 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 19:30:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from 195.7.0.106 (user106.arcadis.be) by iris.arcadis.be (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA28021; Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:30:33 GMT Message-Id: <32950246.4CC0@arcadis.be> Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 01:30:46 +0000 From: Jay Pamnany X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Macintosh; I; 68K) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: joris@csc.albany.edu Subject: x Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------60894A93604A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------60894A93604A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et/access?ac=153661721781&pg=//96/11/21/ncras21.html --------------60894A93604A Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="ncras21.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="ncras21.html" Content-Base: "http://www.telegraph.co.uk/et/access?a c=153661721781&pg=//96/11/21/ncras2 1.html" Councillors ban Crash from the West End screen
UK News Electronic Telegraph
Thursday 21 November 1996
 Issue 547
See text menu at bottom of page
Councillors ban Crash from the West End screen
By Hugh Muir

External Links

Crash - Alliance Communications


David Cronenberg home page

CRASH, the film that features characters deriving sexual pleasure from car collisions, was banned from cinemas in the West End yesterday because councillors believe that it is in poor taste.

The interim decision was made by the licensing sub-committee of Westminster council after members were given a private screening at a central London theatre. They have promised to review the ban later this year when the film, directed by David Cronenberg, is considered by the British Board of Film Classification (BBFC). The board decides what rating the film, may have but it also has the power to ban it from British cinemas.

Westminster councillors made their decision despite a sustained campaign in support of the film by writers - such as Salman Rushdie. Fifty filmakers, including Mike Leigh and Duncan Kenworthy, the producer of Four Weddings and A Funeral, also expressed support for the production, which is based on a book by J G Ballard.

The council's decision dismayed the makers of Crash who said they will fight to have "this work of art" shown uncut in Britain. Chris Auty, the co-executive director, said he was optimistic that the final decision will rest with the BBFC. "All we really want is that our work of art, which is how we think of this film from the bottom of our hearts, gets the opportunity to be seen in an uncut form by the British public," he said.

However, after watching the film, Cllr John Bull, the sub-committee chairman, said the BBFC should scrutinise three sections of the film: a sex scene with a woman in calipers, the final sex scene and the film hero's statement that car crashes were "fertilising" rather than destructive. "The committee has serious concerns about the film," he said. "It is clearly better for the film to be awarded a certificate and we hope, therefore, the BBFC will properly address the councillors' concerns. However, the sub-committee would be reluctant for the film to be shown in Westminster in this form. Consequently, to preserve the council's position, we have decided as a purely interim measure to prohibit the film showing in Westminster."

Cllr Bull said that Westminster is not obliged to take the same view as the BBFC. "The council has the right, if they are still not satisfied, of looking at the film again and preventing it being shown in Westminster - if it isn't cut." Asked if he enjoyed the film, he said: "It's a good film. It's exceedingly well made, you can't take that away. If you are asking me personally whether I enjoyed the film, I can be quite honest, I could live without it. I don't like all these sex scenes and car crashes. It's not me, but then you have to remember I am a senior citizen."

Cllr Anne Barns said she was also concerned about the film's content. "I am extremely worried about the impact it might have on 18- or 19-year-olds who think themselves very clever and tend to like fast cars, and probably put two and two together and possibly try things out," she said.

But Cllr David Avery disagreed. "I certainly don't think this is a film which will encourage crime or disorder or racial hatred against any section of society," he said. "I would have thought it was allowable viewing for adults if they don't mind degradation and violence towards women and dogs."

BBFC members have yet to see Crash, which stars James Spader, Holly Hunter and Rosanna Arquette. The film was given a British premiere under special licence at the London Film Festival and won the special jury prize at this year's Cannes Film Festival.

While those most closely connected to the film project insist it should be shown uncut, J G Ballard, who also wrote Empire of The Sun, took news of the temporary ban calmly yesterday. "Modest cuts are acceptable to me as long as they don't reduce the film to shreds," he said. "If Chris Auty feels strongly that he wants to fight for the whole film to be shown, good luck to him. But I would like people to see the film and no film depends on two or three minutes."

10 November 1996: RAC rapped over green light for Crash
9 November 1996: Bottomley urges councils to ban Crash
Next Story: Baywatch actress admits that her marriage is on the rocks
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--------------60894A93604A-- --------------6BD33B025CAD-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:21:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: l%a*n(g@u!a_g#e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book has been out of print for many years, but Southern Illinois has recently decided to resissue it. I think the new printing (with a new color for the cover) will be out this Spring. **** I have received several of the harrassing messages from chronotope.com but don't know where they are coming from or why. I hit reply and sent the whole messages back to the source asking that the sender stop sending out such posts. This is clearly an abuse of our subscriber list, but I don't know how else it can be responded to it at this point. At 09:21 PM 11/20/96 -0500, you wrote: >would any of my american friends be able to help me locate a copy of the >LANGUAGE(='s) anthology. please backchannel. >thank you, >kevin hehir >angelo@mustang.uwo.ca > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:02:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: antiquity Comments: To: buffalo poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wat lite antiquity filosofers, maria? curiously perched, louis ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:02:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: annoying mail from chronotope.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:35 PM 11/21/96, Thomas M. Orange wrote: >Sorry to trouble the list with this, but does anyone know where these >things are coming from, why they are being sent to the people on this >list, and how it can be stopped? This is Dodie Bellamy. I wrote to the poetics list earlier about how to stop these messages, but my message hasn't appeared. The originator is not from chronotope.com but from pair.com: >X-Sender: khlebnik@mail.pair.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 00:51:49 -0800 >To: every_list_in_existance@chronotope.com >From: white_sewer@chronotope.com (Wondering_how_to_work_this) >Subject: bleeding the edge Looking at the content of these messages I believe they are from filch--he's mentioned in them for sure. Per the suggestions I gave to this list earlier, I wrote to postmaster@pair.com and received the following reply: >From: Kevin Martin >Subject: Re: bleeding the edge >To: dbkk@sirius.com >Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:23:48 -0500 (EST) >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Status: U > > >> I received the following unsolicited bulk email ("spam"), which apparently >> originated from your site. Please take appropriate action to ensure this >> doesn't happen again. > >The account in question has been suspended pending investigation. Our >policy on this type of abuse is at http://support.pair.com/policy/abuse.html > >Thanks, >Kevin Martin >sigma@pair.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:00:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: mind / body etc. In-Reply-To: <199611220502.AAA28210@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mind / Body = 42 --- Ricardo Ortiz, by the way, is at Dartmouth by way of San Jose State (it appears one must go East to get back West!) Give that paper time, it will be worth it in the end -- he does really good work -- I hope you guys in San Francisco are saving a couple of good events for the Spring when I'm back that way and can attend -- love to all ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:05:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: spam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is Dodie Bellamy. To those of you fellow listservers who are being spammed by filch and want to do something about it, this is what I've read you should do: You send the message with full headers to at the origininating account, in this case: postmaster@pair.com Frankly, I don't know if this will work with pair.com since they are different than a regular service provider. (If you ever get one of these spams from aol, the address is .) You should begin with something like the following: I received the following unsolicited bulk email ("spam"), which apparently originated from your site. Please take appropriate action to ensure this doesn't happen again. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:59:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: tanks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks to Jordon and Maria for the wonderful gossipy moving posts. I tingle-tangle & etc. Maria: Bruce X? (Sonia Sanchez: "my man, you way behind the set")--but Maria can you say more? Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:07:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Atefat-Peckham Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets In-Reply-To: from "k.a. hehir" at Nov 20, 96 08:41:44 pm Content-Type: text For some reason no poets (other than the dark barn variety) leap to mind. But the creative non-fiction work "The Solace of Open Spaces" by Gretel Ehrlich uses the isolation of Wyoming to create a rather incredible metaphor for devastation and healing. You might check it out. Grain, by the way, is a lovely magazine. --JOEL ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:24:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > i just received my copy of GRAIN today. i realize that this an american > based talkgroup but i must ask: the new poems i read today have a real > feel of landscape, climate and enviroment that become a very comfortable > parentheses within which the voice frolics and grooves. > > my query is twofold. 1. are there any western american writers that i could > read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean > cowboy poetry)? robinson jeffers ed dorn robin blaser (long poem on growing up in idaho, in the holy forest) jack spicer (nary a quonset, but lots of harsh isolation) (2) are there any prairie poets who,have been able to > transcend the lingo of the farm/slough/seasons/quanset(sp?) ??? i shd know this since i live on the "prairie" now but i don't. try diane glancy, linda hogan (mostly south west tho), joy harjo (again, more south than prairie). > hut/hockey/trapping/chiasmustic seasonal changes. as a transplanted gopher > chaser i am finding it harder to find a voice that somehow negotiates the > two. > > cheers, > kevin ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 16:37:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets when you ask abut western american writers, i think of richard hugo, meridel le sueur, bruce weigl, lorine neidecker, joy harjo, carl sandburg (i know it is fashionable to dump on him, but while there are some pretty bad poems, there are some very lovely ones too. when i have midwestern nostalgia, i sometimes read him); for prose, raymond carver, tim o'brien, larry heineman, laura ingalls wilder, frontier women's diaries, a book about the infamous donner party by Ruth Whitman (that is poetry)... e ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 13:50:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: test MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to bother folks, but I just want to see if this gets through. I seem to be having trouble with the new address. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 06:53:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: [Fwd: ABC No Rio in danger] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------73DB71EB551" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------73DB71EB551 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko --------------73DB71EB551 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Received: from jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU [128.143.200.11]) by sarah.albany.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA09267; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from daemon@localhost) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.6/8.6.6) id WAA76512 for avant-garde-outgoing; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:42:36 -0500 Received: from panix3.panix.com (panix3.panix.com [198.7.0.4]) by jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU (8.7.6/8.6.6) with ESMTP id WAA22490 for ; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:42:31 -0500 Received: from localhost (uburoi@localhost) by panix3.panix.com (8.8.2/8.7/PanixU1.3) with SMTP id WAA01878; Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:42:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:42:31 -0500 (EST) From: Alex Trotter To: anarchy-list@cwi.nl cc: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Subject: ABC No Rio in danger Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU Precedence: bulk Reply-To: avant-garde@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU NEW YORK CITY SEEKS EVICTION OF LOWER EAST SIDE ARTS SPACE ABC No Rio is a community-based arts center, performance space and gallery located at 156 Rivington Street in Manhattan. It has been a fixture on the Lower East Side for more than sixteen years, is internationally known as a venue for emerging artists, and is committed to presenting alternative and non-commercial art and performance, poetry readings, music and film & video screenings. The space is available to the community for meetings and workshops, and is home to the NYC chapter of FOOD NOT BOMBS, an organization that serves food to those in need. For the past two summers ABC No Rio has hosted art classes for neighborhood children. Now this sixteen-year-old community institution is once again threatened with eviction by New York City's Department of Housing Preservation & Development (HPD). Three times since June, 1995 ABC No Rio has, in court, thwarted attempts by HPD to evict ABC No Rio and the tenants occupying the residential units of the building. A fourth proceeding was initiated by HPD this past June. At a hearing on August 23 ABC No Rio's Motion for Dismissal was denied. An eviction hearing was scheduled for September 30, but on September 17 HPD attorneys submitted a Motion for Summary Judgement, an attempt to deny No Rio a hearing on the matter of the eviction. In response ABC No Rio legal counsel cross-moved to stay the eviction proceeding. Following a hearing on October 17 Judge Leona Freedman "took it under submission." ABC No Rio now awaits Judge Freedman's decision. Back in April, '96 ABC No Rio brought forth an Article 78 Petition in State Supreme Court seeking to nullify the City Council resolution used by HPD to justify the eviction. On December 7, 1995 the New York City Council declared that 156 Rivington Street, No Rio's premises, was a "blight" on the community, "constituted a serious and growing menace," and "impeded or arrested the sound growth and development of the municipality;" they then approved the Urban Development Action Area Project (UDAAP) promoted by HPD and sponsored by property developers Asian Americans for Equality (AAFE). ABC No Rio's Article 78 challenges this City Council resolution on statutory and First Amendment grounds. The petition argues, and the facts support, that the City has consistently acted in bad faith in its dealings with ABC No Rio and that the intent of the UDAAP approved for the site is retaliatory in response to ABC No Rio's exercise of constitutionally protected speech. Ever since its inception in 1980 ABC No Rio has been critical of New York City housing policies and, in general, has supported culture of dissent. In recent years it has held events to raise funds for Lower East Side pirate radio, and for the East Thirteenth Street squatters and provided its space to them for their legal and strategic planning meetings. In its own discontented relationship with the City and HPD ABC No Rio has over the years staged protests and demonstrations at HPD headquarters; aired its grievances to the press and to public and elected officials; and sought redress and relief in the courts. On August 8 No Rio's Article 78 was assigned to Justice Charles E. Ramos. If the petition is not summarily dismissed it may be possible to stay the eviction. On October 22 No Rio legal counsel appeared before Justice Ramos for oral arguments, and now awaits his decision as to whether or not a hearing will be scheduled. On New Year's Day in 1980 a group of more than thirty artists occupied an abandoned building on Delancey Street on the Lower East Side and mounted the REAL ESTATE SHOW, an art exhibit commenting on the skyrocketing rents for both housing and art space, and the causes of that problem. The show was quickly shut down by the police and the artwork confiscated, generating both protest and publicity. Eager to avoid continued bad press, the City, through the Department of Housing Preservation and Development (HPD), entered into negotiations with the artists and offered them the storefront and basement at 156 Rivington Street, the space that would become ABC No Rio. Over the coming years ABC No Rio was host to an incredible spectrum of artistic expression dealing with war, poverty, homelessness, drugs, sex, violence, and the politics of housing and real estate. ABC No Rio was founded by artists committed to political and social engagement and the space has retained those values to the present. In the mid-eighties ABC No Rio was part of the nexus of venues for the burgeoning East Village performance scene, and in the late-eighties was instrumental in the resurgence of spoken word and performance poetry in New York. At the turn of the decade ABC No Rio became active in the hardcore music scene and instituted a policy of not booking racist, sexist or homophobic bands. ABC No Rio is one of the best-loved punk venues in the world. ABC No Rio enjoys neighborhood, city-wide, national and international support. In 1990 Kunstlerhaus in Hamburg, Germany mounted the show 10 YEARS, 7 DAYS, a celebration of ABC No Rio's first decade. More recently, the founding of ABC No Rio played an important part in the CULTURAL ECONOMIES show which was at the Drawing Center in New York in the Spring of 1996. ABC No Rio has been the subject of many articles in the press and dissertations by critics and academics. In the summer of 1995 ABC No Rio gathered more than 2,500 signatures on petitions and hundreds of letters of support were sent on No Rio's behalf to the municipal authorities. This past September ABC No Rio organized ENDANGERED SPACES: ABC NO RIO EVICTION ACTION WEEK-END, an event that included an installation of visual art, music, performance, and a demonstration/public speak-out at the steps of the Metropolitan Museum of Art. On that week-end,in solidarity with ABC No Rio, artists and squatters in Prague demonstrated at the U.S. Consulate there. The residential units above ABC No Rio have been occupied off and on for years as No Rio has become more and more connected to the local squat movement. At present 156 Rivington Street is a fully occupied building. Many squatters are involved with ABC No Rio and No Rio has organized many events benefitting the squats. The threat to ABC No Rio and the threat to the squats are one and the same. ABC No Rio has always had a difficult and turbulent relationship with the City and HPD. ABC No Rio and its supporters believe that this attempt to evict is politically motivated and retaliatory, an attempt to punish an arts collective for long- term opposition to City policies. The impending eviction of ABC No Rio takes place in the context of escalating hostilities in the neighborhood. Over the years the example of No Rio's seizure of land (the 1980 REAL ESTATE SHOW) has inspired a whole generation of squatters. Today many of those squatters are facing eviction. In August HPD evicted the remaining squatters on East Thirteenth Street. The City and State are moving towards privatizing public housing and eliminating rent stabilization. Other cultural and community centers are facing eviction. Recently the police arrested more than thirty people in Tompkins Square Park for violating an unconstitutional regulation prohibiting the assembly of more than twenty people. The Lower East Side is once again under siege for the sake of a Disney-fied bohemia. Artists, activists, squatters and other ABC No Rio supporters contend that places such as ABC No Rio are part of the "quality of life" in New York City. Will the administration of NYC Mayor Rudolph Giuliani allow ABC No Rio to thrive and survive? Or will the bureaucrats and politicians commit another "quality of life" crime? For more information about ABC No Rio and this situation call (212) 254-3697 or write ABC No Rio at 156 Rivington Street, NYC, 10002. You can also help by participating in our phone, fax, and mail BLITZ to the following: Chris Kui, Executive Director Asian Americans for Equality 111 Division Street NYC 10002 PHONE: (212) 964-2288 FAX: (212) 964-6003 TELL HIM TO BACK OFF 156 RIVINGTON STREET. USING EVICTIONS TO GAIN PROPERTY IS WRONG!!! Lilliam Barrios-Paoli, Commissioner Department of Housing Preservation & Development 100 Gold Street NYC 10038 PHONE: (212) 386-6100 FAX: (212) 267-2565 TELL HER TO BACK OFF ABC NO RIO. EVICTING ABC NO RIO IS WRONG!!! Mayor Rudolph Giuliani City Hall NYC 10007 TELL HIM EVICTING ABC NO RIO IS WRONG!!! HPD SHOULD LEAVE ABC NO RIO FREE TO BE!!! Justice Charles E. Ramos State Supreme Court 60 Center Street NYC 10007 HPD IS RETALIATING AGAINST ABC NO RIO'S EXERCISE OF CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED SPEECH. ABC NO RIO DESERVES A HEARING!!! Thank you for your attention and support----Steven Englander --- from list avant-garde@lists.village.virginia.edu --- --------------73DB71EB551-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:25:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Western poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit odd but my yesterday-post re western poetas never seems to have it -- three such critters come to mind immediately : Lorine Niedecker, Ed Dorn, Ken Irby. This last one is to my mind one of the most underarted, under-read, neglected poets in the country. Bobby Byrd wrote some interesting work around those western spaces early on (Here; North Atlantic Books 1975) though i don't know the more recent work. Don Byrd, though an East Coast resident for some 25 years by now, can't get dem thar hills & plains out of his system, so they & the sense of place & space they give keep popping up throughout his work. Here's the opening of the poem _Aesop's Garden_ from the book by that title (see also his _The Great Dimestore Centennial_): "out under the blue stars Arcadia sleeps in the white farm house wheat grows on the doorsteps in the wild places Francis Parkman saw and fevered through a film of halluciantion reported satyrs dancing on the congealed inland oceans" .... "America is a bowl closed east and west by mountains and this is the sky outside it half sea half history you are unable to forget" -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:38:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: dildo update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For all those who claimed that the dildo thread was irrelevant to our business here, here's a surprising connection from some recent reading: Originally the leather dildo was worn by comic actors in the satyr plays, through which it's connected to Dionysus and subversive, sexual hilarity. It's also connected to the grotesque crone Baubo^ who exposed her bare bum and genitals to Demeter, making the goddess laugh and thus forget her grieving for Persephone. The name Baubo^ was used for the dildo. One of Baubo^'s other names was Iambe, the origin of "iambus", the limping meter. So there you have it--poetics and dildoes have long gone together. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 05:04:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: dildo update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Boughn wrote: > > For all those who claimed that the dildo thread was irrelevant to our > business here, here's a surprising connection from some recent reading: > > Originally the leather dildo was worn by comic actors in the satyr > plays, through which it's connected to Dionysus and subversive, sexual > hilarity. It's also connected to the grotesque crone Baubo^ who > exposed her bare bum and genitals to Demeter, making the goddess laugh > and thus forget her grieving for Persephone. The name Baubo^ was used > for the dildo. One of Baubo^'s other names was Iambe, the origin > of "iambus", the limping meter. > > So there you have it--poetics and dildoes have long gone together. Mike is right. And to help underline the suppressed connection between poetics and dildoes, here's a poem that seems to have fallen--well, between the cracks: Ars Poetica A dildo should be palpable and mute As a globed fruit Dumb As old medallions to the thumb Silent as the sleeve-worn stone Of casement ledges where the moss has grown-- A dildo should be wordless As the flight of birds * A dildo should be motionless in time As the moon climbs Leaving, as the moon releases Twig by twig the night-entangled trees, Leaving, as the moon behind the winter leaves, Memory by memory the mind-- A dildo should be motionless in time As the moon climbs * A dildo should be equal to: Not true For all the history of grief An empty doorway and a maple leaf For love The leaning grasses and two lights above the sea-- A dildo should not mean But be Archiball MacLeash Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:03:04 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: dildo update In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:38:20 -0500 from Reminds me of Pound's letter XXXII.5 to Eliot (p. 15) (1934): "Wan't that a grrrrand thing, Possum, whun we bruk the five-foot dildo?" [ed. note: EP slang for "pentameter"] - HH Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:07:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: dildo update In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 22 Nov 1996 05:04:15 -0800 from Thanks, Rachel, for moving MacFlush poem. I, for one, would love to get away from the endless abstract pro-dildo anti-dildo debates, the rambling personal memoirs & gossip on this list. We need more close dildo readings! When are we going to have some discussion of neglected poet Harvey Spamlife, author of "The Dildo Passages"? Or Louise Glug-glug of UPA (United Pacified Colonies), whose remarkable oeuvre ("egg" in French, I've heard) remains in dusty archives of the State University of Lower West Shambletown? Why? It's a disgrace. When will the "literary establishment" wake up to the real advances of these writers of the soi-disant "Dildo School"? I ask you? And again - I ask you? HH Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:57:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: mind / body etc. In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Mind / Body = 42 > > > --- > Ricardo Ortiz, by the way, is at Dartmouth by way of San Jose State (it > appears one must go East to get back West!) > > Give that paper time, it will be worth it in the end -- he does really > good work -- oh definitely; it was fun and juicy, just...impressionistic. certainly sexier than mine.--md > > I hope you guys in San Francisco are saving a couple of good events for > the Spring when I'm back that way and can attend -- > > love to all ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:04:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: dildo update thanks mike, hank and rachel for starting my day off on the good broken-five foot, a smile on my lips and a dildo in my heart. i think st john of the cross is a good one for investigating the further adventures of poetic penetration. --md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Comments: To: "k.a. hehir" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ed Dorn - Gunslinger et al. Reg Saner - conventional but unsentimental John Haines -ditto Ronald Johnson - portions of ARK ---------- From: k.a. hehir To: POETICS Subject: the poets and land and landing poets Date: Thursday, November 21, 1996 2:05PM i just received my copy of GRAIN today. i realize that this an american based talkgroup but i must ask: the new poems i read today have a real feel of landscape, climate and enviroment that become a very comfortable parentheses within which the voice frolics and grooves. my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean cowboy poetry)? (2) are there any prairie poets who,have been able to transcend the lingo of the farm/slough/seasons/quanset(sp?) hut/hockey/trapping/chiasmustic seasonal changes. as a transplanted gopher chaser i am finding it harder to find a voice that somehow negotiates the two. cheers, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:31:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Ear Inn Reading Dec./Jan. (fwd) Comments: To: Ron Silliman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" PLEASE NOTE TIMES FOR READINGS, SATURDAY 2:30PM! DECEMBER & JANUARY READINGS AT THE EAR INN THE EAR INN New York, NY 10013 (212) 226-9060 DECEMBER 7: ABIGAIL CHILD, RON SILLIMAN Abigail child is filmmaker and writer whose books include A Motive for Mayhem (Potes & Poets), MOB (O Press) and most recently Scatter Matrix (Roof Books). She is currently working on a book of critical writing on film and poetry. Her new film B/side will have its world premier this fall at the London Film Festival. Ron Silliman has published more than 20 books, most recently Xing (Meow Press). He lives in the Valley Forge region of Pennsylvania. DECEMBER 14: ANDREW LEVY, JULIANA SPHAR Andrew Levy is the author of Curve (O Books), Values Chauffeur You (O Books), Democracy Assemblages (Innerer Klang), between poems (Innerer Klang), and Continuous Discontinuous (Book II of Curve), forthcoming from Potes & Poets. Recent staged collaborations with Gerry Hemingway and Daria Fain at The Kitchen. Juliana Sphar's Response is forthcoming from Sun and Moon Press. She edits Chain magazine with Jena Osman. She is teaching for the year at Siena College in Albany, NY. DECEMBER 21: SIANNE NGAI, STACY DORIS Sianne Ngai is the author of the 1994 chapbook My Novel (Leave Books) and has published poems in Chain, Avec, Talisman, and Mirage and has work forthcoming in New American Writing. Stacy Doris is the author of Kildare from Roof books. Her Mop Factory Incident (Women's Studio Workshop, 1996) a limited-edition book designed by visual artist Melissa Smedley, includes a real miniature Mars Bar shrink-wrapped in each copy. DECEMBER 28: HOLIDAY SCHEDULE -- NO READING. JANUARY 4: HOLIDAY SCHEDULE -- NO READING JANUARY 11: EILEEN MYLES, BARBARA BARG Eileen Myles' most recent book is Maxfield Parrish (Black Sparrow). Her next book, School of Fish, is forthcoming in the spring from Black Sparrow. She is presently working on a novel entitled Cool for You. Barbara Barg is the author of two books: Obeying the Chemicals (Hard Press - 1984), and Origin of THE Species (Semiotext(e) - 1994). She is also a singer, songwriter, and drummer with the poets' band Homer Erotic. JANUARY 18: MARJORIE WELISH, TOM MANDEL Majorie Welish, a poet and art critic living in New York, has published four books of poems: Handwritten (Sun, 1979), a chapbook; Two Poems (Z Press, 1981), The windows Flew Open (Burning Deck, 1991), and Casting Sequences (University of Georgia Press, 1993). Her work is in numerous anthologies including A Postmodern American Poetry (Norton, 1994). Tom Mandel is the author of ten books of poetry including: Ency (Tuumba, 1978), and more recently, Letters of the Law (Sun & Moon, 1994), Prospect of Release (Chax, 1996), and Absence Sensorium (Potes & Poets, 1996), co-authored ith Daniel Davidson. His Ancestral Cave will appear in 1997 from Zasterle Press (Islas Canarias, Espana). JANUARY 25: LIZ FODASKI, HEATHER RAMSDELL Liz Fodaski is the editor and publisher of Torque, and a coordinator for the Ear Inn. Publications include: Big Allis, Chain, and Object, and a poem forthcoming in the Gertrude Stein Awards. She lives and teaches in her native NYC. Heather Ramsdell's poems have appeared in Mandorla, Torgue, and Talisman, and are forthcoming in Sulfur. She recently completed her first book, Lost Wax. SATURDAY AFTERNOON READINGS begin at 2:30 pm. The EAR INN is at 326 Spring St., NYC. $3.00 contribution goes to readers. Coodinator for December and January is Charles Borkhuis. Continuing support of this series is provided by the Segue Foundation. Funding is made possible by support from the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. PLEASE SUPPORT THE EAR -- COME EARLY FOR LUNCH, STAY LATE FOR DINNER! If you want to get Segue mailings, write or call:: The Segue Foundation, 303 E. 8th Street, New York, NY 10009, (212) 674-0199 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:00:33 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: Western poets At the risk of once again demonstrating my philistine sensibilities, I'd have to say that I do admire quite a few of the Cowboy Poets--Bill Jones, Rod McQueary, Bill Shields, Jon Forrest Glade, John Dofflemeyer, Laurie Wagner Buyer. And it's a remarkable thing, these days, to be able to draw a rodeo-size crowd (sometimes over 10,000 folks) to hear a poetry reading... especially in a low-population state like Wyoming. Quite a few of these poets are working cowboys and/or ranchers. (Buyer gets up every morning before dawn, and sleeps in the barn during calving season.) A few of them have MFAs (Jon Forrest Glade was for a long time the editor of the _Owen Wister Review_), but many don't. Most of them are storytellers as well as poets, and I've always liked a good story. Kali Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 kali.tal@yale.edu Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:07:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Western poets Weren't some of O'Hara's poems written on the west side? & let us not forget Mr Kenneth Rexroth who went so far west he wound up east & also his onlyness of _Western Love_ -- Bill "Rocketman" Luoma. The Basement Tapes have a western thing goin' even though recorded in Woodstock but maybe it's just me-- I listened to them driving through southern Utah in the spring. Ah, spring. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:15:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets In-Reply-To: <9611212007.AA11576@unlgrad1.unl.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII reaction against "poet of place" label so strong here that much resistance to the form of the question is found in some of the most interesting poets on the plains -- but doesn't Ken Irby answer here? especially the earlier works? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 09:45:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Crash! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been waiting for this film for a while too. Not just 'cause I've liked Crash since it came out (though, like Pierre I like some other Ballard works better) but 'cause David Cronenberg is one of my favorite directors. He's a master of turning dread of the everyday into terror. I'd heard that the US distributor had held off on releasing the film in the States til after the election, not wanting to be the focus of another Dole v. Hollywood rant. Perhaps Ted Turner's response to the film has to do with Jane Fonda not being cast as the Liz Taylor fetish-figure in the story. Herb >Recently saw info (on another list, can't remember which one, off hand) >re how Ted Turner had done his best to prevent Cronenberg's > movie of JG Ballard's novel CRASH to be shown in these States -- >here just in from a London friend how the movie of a book I liked a lot >(way back when it came out -- tho I always preferred THE ATROCITY >EXHIBITION --) is doing, or rather not doing, in London -- hope this >longish web-post attachment isn't blowing anyone's memory fuses, &/or is >readable on non-web-based mailers -- Pierre >-- Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 10:00:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: Western poets In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jim McCrary's West of Mass comes to mind. There's a sample of it at: http://www.thing.net/~grist/golpub/mccrary/homejmc.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:29:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets You might look at the Jeffers/Rexroth/Everson/Snyder nexus. Soem of Micahel McClure's work. Small parts of Duncan/Blaser/Spicer. Much of Joanne Kyger. Diane diPrima's _Wyoming Series_. Lyn Hejinian's _My Life_. Bob Grenier's _A Day At The Beach_. Ken Irby writes from landscapes of the West (CA--"Jed Smith & the Way"), Southwest (early work) & Kansas plains. Look for _Catalpa_, _Relation_, & _Max Douglas_. Ed Dorn's early stuff on the plains & Rockies. Tom Clark's _The End of the Line_ & _Short History of the High Plains_ have probably been gathered into one of his Black Sparrow books, though I don't know which. Lorine Niedecker, writing from the midwest though not quite the plains, has come to be emblematic of the isolated writer. Nathaniel Tarn & Janet Rodney's _Alashka_ & Tarn's _At the Western Gates_. Here in Sacramento, Julia Connor often writes out of the landscape. Look for _Corresponding Flowers_, _The Delta Poem_, _Making Tha Good_ & an extended meditation on the Central Valley, _A Canto For the Birds_, where she writes: incredulous to stand in these fields & believe we cannot feed this valley's poor the thrust of even the darkest song is Love *Art* but the measure of a thing ~~~~~~~~~ of course there are others... (Can you tell more about GRAIN?) charles In a message dated 96-11-21 14:54:38 EST, you write: << i just received my copy of GRAIN today. i realize that this an american based talkgroup but i must ask: the new poems i read today have a real feel of landscape, climate and enviroment that become a very comfortable parentheses within which the voice frolics and grooves. my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean cowboy poetry)? (2) are there any prairie poets who,have been able to transcend the lingo of the farm/slough/seasons/quanset(sp?) hut/hockey/trapping/chiasmustic seasonal changes. as a transplanted gopher chaser i am finding it harder to find a voice that somehow negotiates the two. cheers, kevin >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:59:51 -0500 Reply-To: landers@frontiernet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pete Landers Organization: SkyLark Publishing Company Subject: Re: dildo update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This thread is older than old. ... Shakespeare, The Winter's Tale, IV. iv. Servant: He hath songs for man or woman, of all sizes; no milliner can so fit his customers with gloves: he has the prettiest love-songs for maids; so without bawdry, which is strange; with such delicate burthens of dildos and fadings, 'jump her and thump her;' and where some stretch-mouthed rascal would, as it were, mean mischief and break a foul gap into the matter, he makes the maid to answer 'Whoop, do me no harm, good man;' puts him off, slights him, with 'Whoop, do me no harm, good man.' 200 The old bard, known for his misspellings, did not insert the Quayle-like "e" that, you'll recall, appeared in the first complaint of these phallic impudences. Pete ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 07:56:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: antiquity In message <199611220502.AAA28210@dept.english.upenn.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > wat lite antiquity filosofers, maria? > > curiously perched, > louis that's lite as in late, not light, mind u: epictetus and rabbi joseph...xxx are the names i remember, and one touching moment when bruce boone said he was coming out as a dualist...now there's a bold move in 1996. there were other names but i don't remember them. i only read those guys in anthologies w/ names like"western asceticism" and "christology of the later fathers." i loved that stuff in my more abject smarter days. maybe this is a sign to get back to it. mmd ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:02:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: tanks In message <2.2.16.19961122010243.495f5792@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > thanks to Jordon and Maria for the wonderful gossipy moving posts. I > tingle-tangle & etc. > > Maria: Bruce X? (Sonia Sanchez: "my man, you way behind the set")--but > Maria can you say more? bruce boone had adopted the x to see if it wd make him famous. he's published on gay stuff (i saw one article many years ago on frank ohara and gay language) and probably other stuff i don't know. translator, told me abt a french author pascale ? he's translated for lapidus press. others here probably know more than i. i was on an mla panel w/ him and m davidson lo thse many years ago on robert duncan and gay community (in 1987); i was the only chick, and a grad student too. his paper seemed to be quite a bit of hermetic insider-knowledge stuff about internicene poetry-politics that i didn't understand. he's an old-style intellectual with a wide range of interests and sources, not a young groovoid or trendoid. md > > Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:28:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Western poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:25 AM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote: >odd but my yesterday-post re western poetas never seems to have it -- >three such critters come to mind immediately : Lorine Niedecker, Ed >Dorn, Ken Irby. Yes for Dorn & Irby, but in what sense is Niedecker a "western" poet? I always thought western meant at least west of the Mississippi, and increasingly, west of the great plains states. But that's coming from someone who grew up somewhere near the middle, in my case Oklahoma. ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:28:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >1. are there any western american writers that i could >> read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean >> cowboy poetry)? >robinson jeffers >ed dorn >robin blaser (long poem on growing up in idaho, in the holy forest) >jack spicer (nary a quonset, but lots of harsh isolation) In quite a different way I would add Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, at least in terms of using the western desert landscape, although "harsh" isn't the term I would choose. Likewise for some of my own work. ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 17:38:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: sad news and an appreciation, Meridel Le Sueur following reached me yesterday, to my great sadness. it is sad news and a lovely appreciation of meridel le sueur by my friend jo grant. if anyone has anything they want to share/remember/say about meridel and her work, i know jo would be very moved to receive it. he has known her for some time and this is a sad time for him as well as for anyone who has read meridel's work. when i read her, i am reminded of tillie olson's fearlessness, of the sweep and closeness of judy grahn and adrienne rich and pat parker and audre lord, of the tenderness of sara orne jewett. meridel's writing can literally make me have to stop reading because i am so overwhelmed by the pain and the sharp beauty of her words... ------------- From jgrant@bookzen.com Mon Nov 18 01:56:50 1996 Return-Path: jgrant@bookzen.com Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 02:00:06 -0600 Subject: Meridel Le Sueur: 1900-1996 Friends, Very sad to inform the many Iowa Citians who were friends of Meridel LeSueur that she died yesterday. For those who attended her last appearence in Iowa City, at Old Brick, during her final Iowa Tour will remember her telling us: "I was born at the beginning of the swiftest and bloodiest century at Murray, Iowa, in a white square puritan house in the corn belt, of two physically beautiful people who had come west through the Indian and the Lincoln country, creating the new race of the Americas by enormous and rugged and gay matings with the Dutch, the Indian, the Irish; being preachers, abolitionists, agrarians, radical lawyers on the Lincoln, Illinois, circuit. "Dissenters and democrats and radicals through five generations. Meridel LeSueur - 1900-1996 That night at Old Brick Meridel spoke about the years of being blacklisted by McCarthy and the difficult time she and her children had trying to survive during the reign of the House UnAmerican Activities Committee. At one point her agent told her she could sell more books if she would write like Ernest Hemingway. She responded "I would, but I have better things to do with my time than write about fighting, fishing and fucking." A feminist decades before the term entered everyday use, she spent her life on the front line fighting for the rights of women, minorities, Native Americans, gays and the disabled. A review of her most recent book, THE DREAD ROAD, and an article about her can be found at www.bookzen.com. Both have been downloaded by newspapers from around the world, along with embarassingly few from the U.S. The book review is at: The article is at: Both were written by Chuck Miller. When Meridel read them she was so touched she cried. It was rare when anything as insightful as Miller's article and review had ever been written about her. After many hours of audio and video recording of Meridel over a period of 13 years it was the first time I witnessed her crying. But what a life... As a young girl she marched with Mother Bloor in Colorado to protest the massacre of miners and their families at Ludlow; during her early teens lived with Emma Goldman and Alexander Berkman; grew up a prolitarian writer who counted as her friends: Agnes Smedley, Josephine Herbst, Nelson Algren, Grace Lumpkin, Upton Sinclair, Jack Conroy, Richard Wright, Zona Gale, Theodore Drieser, Kenneth Fearing, Mari Sandoz...Boris Israel and too many others to name here. Her grandfather, whose wife was identified only as a squaw--since the state of Ohio didn't include names of Native Americans who married white men--was a friend of John Chapman (Johnny Appleseed).... I've gone on too long. I'll close with this quote from Miller's article: "Henry Miller, Keraouc and Bukowski are all dead. There is no one else left of LeSueur's stature in American literature today. She stands alone, a giant, waiting to be discovered by her own nation." Amen to thjat, or rather, A(wo)men! If anyone does not have access to the World Wide Web E-mail me and I will send the article and the review by return mail. All of Meridel's books are in Special Collections at the main UI library if the Iowa City Public Library doesn't have them. Some people have contacted me and asked if they can share thoughts about Meridel and have them posted where their friends could find them and respond. We're setting it up with all comments being printed and copies being placed in the LeSueur collections in MN, WI & IA. j grant --------------- E, Don't hesitate to share this with any friends who know about Meridel. Peace and love, joe --------------- Authors & publishers display books free at http://www.bookzen.com 10,877 visitors 10-28 to 11-03 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 17:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: oh give me a home Comments: To: Charles Alexander MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT For what it's worth, Wallace Stegner marks the west as beginning at the 100th meridian, which I believe falls right down the middle of Oklahoma (but I don't have an atlas handy). Unfortunately, I can't remember why he designates it this way. Kevin's query begs the larger question of the relationship between geography and poesis. Clearly, some poets feel compelled to confront "landscape", with all that entails - psychologically, politically, culturally, biologically, historically, etc. - in their work; but just as clearly, some poets would write the same kind of poetry regardless of where they lived. Engaging "the land" is really just a metaphor for engaging the self, isn't it? "Harsh isolation" is just as much a factor of living in the Lower East Side as it of living in Wyoming or Alaska. I wake up before dawn every day too. And when the wind is just right - that is to say wrong - the whole town of Boulder smells like a manure field. That's harsh, baby! Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Charles Alexander To: POETICS Subject: Re: Western poets Date: Friday, November 22, 1996 4:28PM At 07:25 AM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote: >odd but my yesterday-post re western poetas never seems to have it -- >three such critters come to mind immediately : Lorine Niedecker, Ed >Dorn, Ken Irby. Yes for Dorn & Irby, but in what sense is Niedecker a "western" poet? I always thought western meant at least west of the Mississippi, and increasingly, west of the great plains states. But that's coming from someone who grew up somewhere near the middle, in my case Oklahoma. ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 19:16:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: oh give me a home around here, in mn, "sense of place" is a big huge deal in writing. since i don't identify w/ the place i don't really get it, or why it's important; but i sure get why melville thinks everything goes seaward. so, color me coastal.--md In message <01IC5L37QALI9S3PRW@iix.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > For what it's worth, Wallace Stegner marks the west as beginning at the > 100th meridian, which I believe falls right down the middle of Oklahoma (but > I don't have an atlas handy). Unfortunately, I can't remember why he > designates it this way. > > Kevin's query begs the larger question of the relationship between geography > and poesis. Clearly, some poets feel compelled to confront "landscape", with > all that entails - psychologically, politically, culturally, biologically, > historically, etc. - in their work; but just as clearly, some poets would > write the same kind of poetry regardless of where they lived. > > Engaging "the land" is really just a metaphor for engaging the self, isn't > it? "Harsh isolation" is just as much a factor of living in the Lower East > Side as it of living in Wyoming or Alaska. I wake up before dawn every day > too. And when the wind is just right - that is to say wrong - the whole town > of Boulder smells like a manure field. That's harsh, baby! > > Patrick Pritchett > ---------- > From: Charles Alexander > To: POETICS > Subject: Re: Western poets > Date: Friday, November 22, 1996 4:28PM > > > At 07:25 AM 11/22/96 -0500, you wrote: > >odd but my yesterday-post re western poetas never seems to have it -- > >three such critters come to mind immediately : Lorine Niedecker, Ed > >Dorn, Ken Irby. > > Yes for Dorn & Irby, but in what sense is Niedecker a "western" poet? I > always thought western meant at least west of the Mississippi, and > increasingly, west of the great plains states. But that's coming from > someone who grew up somewhere near the middle, in my case Oklahoma. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > get off my back. the future fields into which I write are > unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is > around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. > > --Beverly Dahlen > from A Reading 8 - 10 > published by Chax Press > ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:18:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: antiquity In-Reply-To: <3295b10040bd196@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> from "maria damon" at Nov 22, 96 07:56:17 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit epictetus is dark *yet* lite - yes, so unusual for a stoic, you think, in contrast to the epicurians, and i concur roman slave who rec'd manumission, who wrote nothing but whose devoted pupil did, the discourses. epictetus, epictetus. in the vol. i have (poor translation as you will instantly see; i don't read latin), a sample from the section entitled "Social Intercourse Should Be Entered into Cautiously": Have you any such faculty as Socrates had, who in every conversation could bring his companions to his own purpose? How could you have it? You must therefore be carried along by the crowd. And why are they more powerful than you? Becasue they utter their corrupt discourses from sincere opinion, and you your good ones only from your lips. Hence they are without strength or life; and it is disgusting to hear your exhortations and your poor miserable virtue proclaimed uyp hill and down. Thus it is that the corwd gets the better of you; for sincere opinhion is always strong, always invincible. Therefore before wise sentiments are fixed in you, and you have acquired some power of self-defence, I advise you to be cautious in your associations ... otherwise, if you have any impressions made on you in the schools, they will melt away daily like wax before the sun. Get away then, far from the sun, while you have these waxen opinions. time to heed this dude? your call. foucault gave him a run in the third book, first section (if i remember rightly) of history of sexuality - as at the transitional cusp of a caring of self over others (as a means to respect others) what ever happened to eric wirth? he wrote a wonderful piece that used epitectus in it. publ. in i think it was don wellman's mag ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 18:19:56 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Western poets Lorine Niedecker. Only if you mean (upper mid)West. But definitely read her! beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university - purdue university simon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:52:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: (ahem) gracias for the dildo thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" is it curious that Rachel Loden's poem is a whole lot better than MacLeish's? prolly not anyway "thanks for that dildo thread!" ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:08:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: x spots the mark Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks Maria. he's the same Bruce Boone who wrote /Century of Cloud/, right? Douglas (M)? Douglas invited him to read in Philadelphia the one year I was at Temple (when Douglas was still there). What a terrific writer! Tenney >Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:02:41 -0600 >From: maria damon >Subject: Re: tanks > >In message <2.2.16.19961122010243.495f5792@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics >discussion group writes: >> thanks to Jordon and Maria for the wonderful gossipy moving posts. I >> tingle-tangle & etc. >> >> Maria: Bruce X? (Sonia Sanchez: "my man, you way behind the set")--but >> Maria can you say more? > >bruce boone had adopted the x to see if it wd make him famous. he's published >on gay stuff (i saw one article many years ago on frank ohara and gay language) >and probably other stuff i don't know. translator, told me abt a french author >pascale ? he's translated for lapidus press. others here probably know more >than i. i was on an mla panel w/ him and m davidson lo thse many years ago on >robert duncan and gay community (in 1987); i was the only chick, and a grad >student too. his paper seemed to be quite a bit of hermetic insider-knowledge >stuff about internicene poetry-politics that i didn't understand. he's an >old-style intellectual with a wide range of interests and sources, not a young >groovoid or trendoid. md >> >> Tenney > >------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 00:08:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: here here (there there) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'll second Charles A on Mei-mei as a western poet. Whenever I read or hear one of her poems I think I'm in New Mexico; whenever I drive in New Mexico I think I'm reading one of Mei-mei's poems. which are almost entirely abstract (so it's no mean feets) : it's something about how the planes of words are like the planes of mountains (plains of sky?) over in NM (I never think of Mei-mei when I drive in AZ). (and then there's /Tan-Tien/, which Charles published. a whole NOTHER story.) Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:43:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: queer beats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Interesting post by Maria Damon about last weekend's "Queer Beats" conference. Thank you, Maria. I was one of the organizers and can report we were all enormously pleased by what went on up on the stage and down in the audience. >kevin k was one of the convener/symposiacs and he looked lovely in a beige >suit w/ his hair falling debonairly over one eye. Please note this suit was by Joseph Abboud ...."hints of mod london era" for sure. As for Maria's lipstick it was beautiful and well applied. So was your talk, Maria, you do not give yourself enough credit. I could feel the audience gasp in surprise as point by point you outlined the main points of the triangulated affair between Bob Kaufman and the painter Russell FitzGerald, who was actually living with Jack Spicer at the time and served as the model for his "Billy the Kid." Anne Murphy was in the audience (Anne, familiar to North Beach denizens, is famous locally as the last girlfriend of Neal Cassady) and rushed up afterwards, "I knew Bob Kaufman for twenty years and never knew he had sex with a man! But it all ties in!" My own panel was on "Queer Identity." I was the moderator but what a difficult job. On the one hand I had Michael Davidson giving a wonderful talk on the Cold War poetics of the 50's... seemingly unaware of Allen Ginsberg's presence as he delivered one or two blistering remarks on Ginsberg's 50's-style misogyny, etc; then when the lights came up and he saw AG he seemed to grow pale. "Don't worry Michael," whispered Mark Ewert, another panelist. "He's a big boy, he can take it." And on my other side there was Ricardo Ortiz with these huge forearms. As Aaron Shurin pointed out once you noticed the forearms there wasn't anything else in the room, and Ricardo seemed to play with them like two big hams. >a guy who looked younger than he was, in hiphop ski cap, >read a memoir about his friendship w/ burroughs. ginsberg showed up in the >audience to hear him. This was Mark Ewert, who is 24 and looks about 14. He's writing an autobiography about his relationship with Burroughs and Ginsberg and read part of it on the panel. I think it all went down very well. Earl Jackson Jr. spoke about the recent publication of "Jerome: After the Pageant" a glossy coffee table-like book which reproduces many paintings by the late, extravagant drag queen artist Jerome Caja, who died here in San Francisco last year of AIDS, then launched into his deconstruction of Burroughs' "cut-up" method, which persuaded many if not all. Brilliant speech, and Jackson Jr has new contact lenses which give his eyes a strange, eerie cobalt X ray glare, as though Ralph Fiennes was playing an alien on the X Files. Lenore Kandel almost stole the show. I don't know how old she is now, but she exuded 10 tons of warmth and glamor and humor. She is a fantastic presence and altogether modest about her amazing career. During the question period I asked about about what it was like to work with Kenneth Anger on "Lucifer Rising" (which she says she has never seen). Those of you who have seen the various versions of this film will recall that at one point, in some versions of the cut, Kandel is seen descending a long staircase, utterly drawn and stark and haunted a la Barbara Steele or Anna Karina, carrying a goldfish bowl in one arm. Kandel told us that this goldfish was her own and she was too nervous about it to leave it at home on this particular day of filming. Thus from what accidents is born great cinema!!! It was a shame that Bruce X's paper was cut short by his own long windedness just as he was apparently about to tie together the late 20th century affinity for masochism, the disintegration of John Wieners under drugs and electroshock, the way the paintings of Jay De Feo and Russell FitzGerald seem to have been designed to fall apart gradually, and how this all related to the gnostic philosophers, but I'm going on too long myself and just want to add.... In one year's time we will be organizing a similar conference/symposium on "Lesbian Beats" and if anyone has any ideas, or wants to help, with time or money or whatever, please contact me or Dodie Bellamy at this e-mail address, dbkk@sirius.com. And thanks to all who attended and helped, etc. It was great and all had an unbelievably good time. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 01:14:22 -0800 Reply-To: jays@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jay Schwartz Subject: Re: Western poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lyn Hejinian's new work A Border Comedy deals with the West, the Frontier, and borders in exciting ways. According to Kevin Killian she recently read a portion of it in conjuction with an exhibit of archival photos of the frontier at SFMOMA. Jack Collom has any number of wonderful poems in many forms about Colorado and the Western plains in general. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 08:59:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Dildo update MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For all those anti-dildo party-poopers who claimed that that thread was irrelevant to our serious avant-garde business here, here's a surprising connection from some recent reading: Originally the leather dildo was worn by comic actors in the satyr plays, through which it's connected to Dionysus and subversive, sexual hilarity. It's also connected to the grotesque crone Baubo^ who supposedly exposed her bare bum and genitals to Demeter, making the goddess laugh and thus forget her grief. The name Baubo^ was also used for the dildo, and one of Baubo^'s other names was Iambe, the origin of "iambus", the limping meter. So there you have it folks--poetics and dildoes have long gone together. Seriously, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 17:09:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit k.a. hehir wrote: > my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could > read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean > cowboy poetry)? (2) are there any prairie poets who,have been able to > transcend the lingo of the farm/slough/seasons/quanset(sp?) > hut/hockey/trapping/chiasmustic seasonal changes. 3 that come immediate to mind are Lorine Niedecker, Ed Dorn & Ken Irby. -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:42:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Aaron Shurin reading in Vancouver MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron Shurin will read his poetry at the Kootenay School of Writing on Saturday, November 23rd, at 8 p.m. The Kootenay School of Writing is located in the Or Gallery at 112 West Hastings, Vancouver, B.C. For more information telephone (604) 688-6001. Aaron Shurin teaches creative writing at San Francisco State University, where he is also on the staff of the Poetry Center, and at the University of San Francisco. He read his poetry most recently in Vancouver at The Recovery of the Public World, a conference and festival in honour of Robin Blaser held in 1995. He also reads tonight, November 21st, in the Subtext series at the Speakeasy Cafe, 2304 2nd Ave in Seattle's Belltown district, at 7:30 p.m. His recent books include _A's Dream_ (O Books) and _Into Distances_ (Sun and Moon). Shurin has two books forthcoming from Sun and Moon. _A Door_, a book of poetry, is expected in spring 1997. He has been working on _Unbound: A Book of AIDS_ (available December 1996) for the past 8 years. This work comprises investigative prose, essays in poetics and the difficulties of writing within the time of AIDS. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 22:52:06 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Fwd: Overview: Genetically Engineered Foods Comments: To: Multiple recipients of list POETICS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi - taking a risk that this hasn't 'cropped' up on the list yet. I've been away teaching, signed off. Thought it might be of interest. Allen Fisher mailed this out to be posted on. PLEASE FORWARD this information to people and organizations >all over the world who may need to know about it: > >For example: people and organizations that eat food, >people and members of organizations who have loved ones >that eat food, and people and groups whose members care >about their health and the environment. > >OR SEND IT TO ANYONE THAT YOU PERSONALLY CARE ABOUT > >This article from Food & Water Journal, Spring 1996, gives a >terrific overview of the issue and discusses individual foods >as well. We have used it as part of our literature since the >beginning of our campaign. It was written by Brian Tokar, >the Biotech writer at Food & Water. This is his uncut version. > >If you receive this article after it has been forwarded many >times and you need a fresh version, just e-mail to >pmligotti@earthlink.net and request a new version of this >"Overview." You may also request more information at >the same e-mail address. > >At the end of the article is the "Three-Tell-Three" >marketing plan and system designed to get this information >out all over the Internet and all over the world. There is >also a telephone number and address for >"Mothers For Natural Law," where you can receive more >information and a "Safety-First" information pack by >U.S. mail. Finally we give instructions on how to shop >to avoid genetically engineered foods. (A very good thing >to aviod) > > >GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS: COMING TO YOUR SUPERMARKET >(Published as "CONSUMER BEWARE.") > > > The floodgates are opening this year for the >widespread commercial sale of genetically engineered foods. >After nearly a decade of research in laboratories and >experimental farm plots across the country, U.S. >government agencies have issued approvals for genetically >engineered crops to be grown in large quantities and offered >for sale. Last year, final consent was obtained for engineered >varieties of corn, squash, potatoes, tomatoes, soybeans, canola >and cotton. Many of these crops were raised for seed during >the 1995 growing season, and may be available in your local >supermarket later this year. > > Since 1990, nearly 3000 varieties of genetically >engineered plants, animals and bacteria have been developed >and field tested in the United States. Field tests have >occured in every state except Vermont, New Hampshire, New Mexico, >Wyoming, Utah and Nevada. Plants have been manipulated >genetically to resist high doses of herbicides, manufacture >insecticidal toxins, resist viruses, ripen more slowly or >more uniformly, and display altered chemical compositions. >Chemical companies such as Monsanto, Ciba-Geigy, DuPont >and Upjohn, along with many of the largest commercial seed >companies, have invested heavily in biotechnologies such as >genetic engineering in an effort to expand their control >over the increasingly monopolized food industry. While some >of these engineered crops will be marketed as specialty products, >others may be mingled with the general food supply, making >it difficult to distinguish them from non-engineered varieties. >Only widespread consumer outrage can prevent these giant >corporations from dramatically increasing their control over >our food, and furthering the spread of this >dangerous new technology. > > Genetically altered plants have many qualities >that distinguish them from their naturally-growing relatives. >Genes from other plants, bacteria, viruses and even animals >are isolated from their original sources and spliced into the >earliest, embryonic cells of the plant of choice. However, >despite the repeated claims of industry representatives, this is >far from a foolproof process. The resulting genetic patchwork, >containing genes from a number of completely unrelated sources, >will often behave in strange and unexpected ways, and can >display unpredictable nutritional, behavioral and environmental >properties. While research aimed at developing new genetically >engineered crops has proceeded at lightning speed in recent >years, research to improve our understanding of the possible >consequences has crept along at a pace that would embarass a >snail. > > Thus, the long range effects of these new crops >remains largely unpredictable. Only the most extreme cases >require any special scrutiny by the FDA and other agencies, >and none of these products will have to be labeled. The ability >to provoke an allergic reaction, for example, can be accidentally >transferred from one plant to another in the course of >transfering genes. Most engineered crops are resistant to >antibiotics, which are used as experimental markers to easily >distinguish altered plant cells from their normal relatives. >Antibiotic resistance can be passed on to bacteria in the soil >or even to organisms residing in or on exposed people and animals. >Levels of toxic substances ordinarily found at below-detectable >levels in foods may be increased, and unique combinations >of genetic traits might even have an effect on our ability to >digest food properly. Many engineered crops allow increased >use of herbicides and pesticides in agriculture, and make it >easier for food processing companies to impose higher standards >of uniformity. Farmers producing crops under contract to food >processors -- an increasingly common practice -- are often >required to follow a strict schedule of chemical treatments, >even if a particular pesticide treatment might be against >the grower's own better judgement. > > Here are some of the items that may be coming to your >supermarket soon, thanks to the latest innovations in biotechnology: > > Tomatoes that look fresher, but aren't: Since 1993, >Food & Water has been reporting on the efforts of Calgene and other >biotechnology companies to produce a tomato engineered to ripen >more slowly for longer shelf life. Calgene's inability to >convince anyone to buy these tomatoes drove the company right to >the edge of bankruptcy last summer. Just when the end appeared >to be in sight, Monsanto jumped in, purchasing 49.9 percent of >Calgene stock, and offering the company and its "Flavr-Savr" >tomatoes a new lease on life. Monsanto has also purchased >the vegetable growing and packing company Gargiulo L.P. and >merged its operations with Calgene's (see sidebar). > > Soybeans and cotton grown with toxic herbicides: >Monsanto will be marketing soybeans containing petunia, bacteria >and virus genes that render it resistant to the herbicide, >glyphosate, which Monsanto markets worldwide under the trade >name, Roundup. The Pesticide Action Network reported last >August that Monsanto is doubling its production capacity for >Roundup, a general purpose herbicide which is highly toxic to >most plants. Meanwhile the French chemical company Rhone-Poulenc >has obtained EPA approval for an engineered variety of cotton >that is resistant to the herbicide bromoxynil. The approval >was for a three year trial, in which Rhone-Poulenc is supposed >to submit data on bromoxynil's effects on human health. This >highly toxic herbicide is known to cause developmental >abnormalities in laboratory mammals and may cause birth >defects and cancer in humans. There is little doubt that >large increases in agricultural herbicide use would result >from the widespread use of these engineered crops. > > Crops that make their own pesticide: Varieties of corn, >potatoes and cotton have been approved that incorporate genes from >Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt), a variety of bacteria that is toxic >to many varieties of crop-damaging caterpillars. But while >the natural form of Bt's toxin is only activated under special >circumstances, making the short-lived bacteria safe for use by >organic growers, the active toxin released by these engineered >plants could impact populations of a wide variety of beneficial >insects, butterflies and moths. The EPA has projected that >widespread use of Bt-engineered crops would result in many of >the target pests becoming resistant to Bt in three to five years. >Organic growers would lose one of their safest and most flexible >tools, and everyone else would either seek higher-potency chemical >pesticides, or have to wait for the biotechnology industry to >produce a yet more potent generation of pesticide-producing >strains. The Swiss multinational Ciba-Geigy is both a leading >pesticide manufacturer and holder of the patent for >Bt toxin-producing corn. > > Canola that can replace tropical oils: Calgene, in >collaboration with Procter & Gamble, has produced a strain >of rapeseed, source of the ever-popular canola oil, that is high >in lauric acid, a fatty constituent naturally found in coconut >and palm kernel oil. While consumers have widely rejected foods >containing tropical oils due to their high content of saturated >fats like lauric acid, such fats are a key raw material in the >manufacture of detergents, soaps and cosmetics. Procter & >Gamble has contracted to buy a million pounds of the high-lauric >oil. The rape plant is a close relative of the wild mustards >that grow abundantly throughout much of the U.S., and these >mustards could serve as carriers for unique combinations of >genetic traits to be passed on in the wild. Researchers in >Scotland recently reported that pollen from genetically >engineered oilseed rape escaped and fertilized plants a mile >and a half away. The so-called "high lauric" canola will >also impact the economies of countries like the Philippines, >Indonesia and Malaysia that are highly dependent on coconut >and palm oil exports. > > In addition to genetically altering food crops, >scientists have investigated ways to alter the genetics of >bacteria and insects to assist agricultural production. >Last fall, a group of whistleblowers at the EPA released >a report describing the agency's efforts to speed up approval >of a strain of genetically engineered "super bacteria." >The bacteria are related to common soil bacteria that attach >to the root nodules of alfalfa, clovers and legumes and allow >these plants to absorb nitrogen directly from the air. The >engineered variety has a doubled nitrogen-fixing gene, which >researchers hope will increase the nitrogen-fixing efficiency of >plants that the bacteria come into contact with. It also contains >a nitrogen-fixation promoter gene from soybeans, a gene for >resistance to the antibiotics streptomycin and spectinomycin, >obtained from dysentery-causing Shigella bacteria, marker genes >from E. coli, and a fragment of DNA from another disease-causing >strain of bacteria (Klebsiella pneumoniae) that is used to >facilitate gene transfer in the laboratory. > > "Overeager to promote biotechnology, EPA has either >deliberately ignored or actively suppressed concerns raised by >staff and independent scientists," stated the report on these >bacteria, released by the organization Public Employees for >Environmental Responsibility. A company called Research Seeds, >Inc., a susdiary of Land O'Lakes (a well-known promoter of the >use of engineered Bovine Growth Hormone in dairy cows) received >permission to field test these bacteria in 1993, despite a >plethora of public health, environmental and agricultural concerns. >EPA approval for commercial sale of the bacteria is now pending, >despite the likelihood of serious disruption of soil ecology and >fertility, the development of more virulent weeds, spreading >antibiotic resistance, and the potential for pathogenic or >allergic reactions in both people and animals. > > Scientists at the University of Florida have added new >genes to a variety of tiny mites that feed on crop-destroying >spider mites. Genetic marker genes have survived 150 generations >in these mites, and researchers are investigating ways to enable >them to adapt better to Florida's climate and also to resist >pesticides. Genetically engineered Medflies, mosquitoes, >honey bees, cotton bollworms and many other insects have been >created in laboratories for a variety of purposes. >Commercialization of these organisms would result in their >widespread release and use in the environment. This poses >significant environmental risks, as these creatures all reproduce >rapidly, play a variety of important ecological roles, travel >long distances, and would be impossible to control once released. > > These various developments are only the latest in the >long range, global effort by the biotechnology industry to >supplant natural processes in agriculture, medicine, forestry, >and nearly every other realm, with their own artificial, costly >and ultimately short-term "solutions." Scientists are isolating >and manipulating hormones that control the growth and flowering >of plants. They are engineering animals to produce drugs in >their milk, and raising pigs containing human immune system >proteins that may allow them to be used as sources of organs for >transplants. There have been experiments involving animal viruses >including rabies, as well as a deadly rabbit virus that recently >escaped from an experimental facility on Wardang Island, off the >coast of Australia. Natural processes, and even the genes of human >beings are being patented by companies that see the entire world as >nothing more than objects to be controlled and profited from. >These developments are merely symptoms of an economic system, and >an entire culture, that has fallen so far out of balance with the >natural world that the survival of complex life on earth is >increasingly threatened by its excesses. > > But none of these developments are as inevitable as >industry representatives would have us believe. Just a decade ago, >the experts were predicting that Bovine Growth Hormone, genetically >engineered plants, anti-frost bacteria, and many other products of >biotechnology would be widely accepted by the early 1990s. This has >not, for the most part, come to pass, and new developments in >biotechnology are as uncertain and controversial as ever. The >emergence of militant farmers' movements in India and across south >Asia reflects an emerging worldwide awareness of the hazards of >corporate agriculture, and is an important counterpart to our own >activism here in the U.S. There is much reason for hope that >organized citizens and an increasingly educated public will >continue to hold back many of the worst consequences of this >fundamentally life-denying technology. > > >Sidebar: Don't Trust Monsanto Tomatoes! > > > In the 1920s, they brought us saccharine, and became the >first U.S. manufacturer of the controversial artificial sweetener. >In the sixties, it was cancer-causing PCB's in electrical equipment. >They are the world's largest seller of herbicides, and a leading >manufacturer of insecticides and disinfectants. In the 1980s, they >lied about the exposure of their own production and maintenance >workers in West Virginia to dioxin and other dangerous chemicals. >Now they want to sell you fresh tomatoes! > Last year, the Monsanto chemical company became the chief >owner of Gargiulo L.P., the nation's largest tomato grower, based >in Naples, Florida. Gargiulo's operations have been combined with >those of Calgene, creator of the genetically altered (and grossly >misnamed) "Flavr-Savr" tomato, as part of Monsanto's effort to >save Calgene from bankruptcy. Now, the combined companies are >trying to make their brand of tomatoes a household name. The >tomatoes, which will be sold under the "Gargiulo Farms" and >Calgene's "McGregor" brand names, are being test marketed in >Indiana and New York State. > "We're sitting on the equivalent of (McDonald's founder) >Ray Kroc in the 1950s," Gargiulo vice president Robert Shulman >told The Packer late last year. Starting with non-engineered >varieties, the company hopes to create an unprecedented consumer >loyalty for brand-named tomatoes and packaged salads. Their goal >is to "make the Gargiulo brand so big that a BLT becomes a BLG -- >bacon, lettuce and Gargiulo," reported The Packer. > With Monsanto seeking an eventual 82% ownership of >Gargiulo, it is doubtful that buyers will know that they are >being set up as guinea pigs for the eventual mass-marketing >of genetically engineered produce. Calgene proved unable to >accomplish this despite an all-out effort over several years. >Will Monsanto's "stealth" marketing strategy succeed? Not if >consumers across the country flatly reject Monsanto's Gargiulo >brand tomatoes even before they are ready to reintroduce >genetically engineered products under this label. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >Texas InfiNet - an online community for progressive information > BBS 512.462.0633 > Telnet shakti.txinfinet.com:3000 > WWW http://www.greenbuilder.com > > >DETAILS OF "THREE-TELL-THREE" E-MAIL CONSUMER-ACTION MARKETING >SYSTEM TO STOP GENETIC ENGINEERING--- >HOW TO RECEIVE MORE INFORMATION: > > >The Three-Tell-Three e-mail system uses the principle >of exponential growth: Three Tell Three etc. through 15 levels > >(3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3x3) > >This equals hundreds of millions of people. This is the >kind of uproar needed to to put pressure on the government and >bio-tech food industries to stop this hazardous genetic alteration >of the food supply. > >1. Artificial, DNA-altered, synthetic, genetically engineered >foods are now being sold at your local supermarket. The >multi-national bio-tech food companies have lobbied the U.S. >government so that they can sell this artificial, mutated food >unlabeled and untested throughout the world. > >2. Many scientists feel that these foods may be extrememly >carcinogenic and dangerous for both individual health and for the >environment. Therefore for the forseeable future and starting >immediately, you should only buy certified organic foods. Especially >watch out, and buy only organic potatoes, tomatoes, corn, >crook neck squash, and soybeans, and avoid all products made from >these vegetables such as corn oil, corn syrup, soy oil, tofu, etc. > > >3. Make a list of everyone you know and get this information into >their hands. Give the highest priority to those that you love and >care about, and give second priority to those who have the >potential to have the greatest impact throughout society. (Emphasize >journalists, reporters, media people, conventional or organic food >producers and wholesalers, environmentally conscious scientists, etc. >if possible) In this way find your three committed people who will >help put an abrupt end to this outrage. > >E-mail to pmligotti@earthlink.net if you require more assistance. > > >For more information and a "Safety-First" information pack by >U.S. mail, call > >1-510-838-4249 leave name, address, and phone >1-515-472-2809 office number > >in the United States, > >or write to: > >Mothers For Natural Law >P.O. Box 1177 >Fairfield, Iowa 52556 > U.S.A. > >Another relevant website: >www.bio-integrity.org > >________________________________________________________________ > >HOW TO SHOP - TO AVOID GENETICALLY ENGINEERED FOODS > >(to be updated as we learn more) > > BUY ORGANIC: At the moment we believe organic is safe. >The USDA will publish its decision on this in a month or more: >website - http://www.aphis.usda.gov/bbep/bp > > READ LABELS ! Processed foods labeled "organic" are >allowed to have 5% non-organic ingredients. If the soy, corn, >or canola oil ingredients are not organic, they will be mixed >with their genetically engineered counterparts by >December, 1996 / January, 1997. > > SOY: Some examples of soy in processed food: soy flour in >baked goods, pizza, cookies, cakes, pasta; fillers in meat products, >e.g., Big Macs; veggie meat substitutes, e.g., tofu, tofu burgers, >tofu dogs; soy milk infant formula, baby food, diet and protein >shakes, protein bars, chocolate, candy bars, margarine, ice cream, >dog food, cat food, soy oil in salad dressings & chips, >soy sauce, lecithin, ...in up to 30,000 products ! > > CORN: corn sweeteners are in soda, (even health food brands), >all sweet products; corn syrup; corn starch is even in yogurt and >aspirin; corn meal products, like cereal and chips; corn oil is >everywhere. > > CANOLA: oil seeds (genetically engineered) from Canada have >been in the U.S. for awhile and may already be in products with >non-organic canola oil. Please avoid these. > > BUY NON-RBGH MILK & DAIRY PRODUCTS: rBGH is a genetically >engineered hormone that, when added to cows' natural growth hormones, >causes painful mastistis often requiring more antibiotics, shortens >their life span, and causes cancer in humans. There is a boycott >of Land of Lakes Butter and Cabot Creamery butter (since it was >bought out). > > AVOID YELLOW CROOKNECK SQUASHES: Unlabeled, from Asgrow >Seed Co. (a division of Upjohn Co.). The first virus-resistant crop >to gain USDA approval. The first genetically engineered whole food >to enter the market unlabeled. The squash, called "Freedom 2," has >many native plant relatives in the US. If they interbreed, the >hybrid could destroy its natural relatives, or create a new breed >of virus-resistant weeds powerful enough to destroy food crops. See >Science, Oct.11, 96. > > EAT RENNETLESS CHEESE: Most cheeses are made with a >genetically engineered rennet called chymosin. "Real rennet" >may not be available anymore. We need more info on this. > > AVOID "DOUGH CONDITIONER" available in cheaper baked goods. >This is a euphemism "code" word for a complex mixture of genetically >engineered enzymes and other components that should not be taken >into the body. Try to avoid cheap breads when eating out. > > AVOID TOMATO PRODUCTS FROM SMALL COMPANIES: Though the >Flavr Savr Tomato by Monsanto has "failed," (may still be in Europe) >they could be sold for making tomato products. The big companies, >like Del Monte, Heinz, and Ragu, grow their own tomatoes. Be very >careful with ketchup (catsup) in Europe. > > > > > > > > > > >. > > > > > > > >. > > ........................................................ > Alan Watson C.Eng _\\|//_ > Oakleigh (' O^O ') > Wernffrwd ==|=ooO=(_)=Ooo=|== > Gower ! PAST ! > Swansea SA4 3TY ! TIME ! > UK ! FOR ! > Tel: 01792 851599 ! CLEAN ! > Fax: 01792 850056 ! PRODUCTION ! > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >....................................................... > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 05:54:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: West I'd add Wendell Berry to poets living on the land well worth reading. That condo complex off campus where Ken Irby lives is about as "western" as the Ear Inn, but yes, you can (why not) get in god damn big car and see the space if you're willing to go a few miles from Mt. Oread in just about any direction. I want to second Pierre on Kenneth as one of our most underappreciated treasures. When I was growing up in Berkeley, I thought "midwest" meant Reno. Everything east of Salt Lake meant "back east." Now that I'm really "back east," I hear people speak of Buffalo as the midwest. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:22:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Western poets In message <009ABC2A.3A67C256.149@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Lorine Niedecker. > Only if you mean (upper mid)West. > > But definitely read her! > > beth simon > assistant professor, linguistics and english > indiana university - purdue university > simon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu yes, niedecker crossed my mind but she was east of me and i'm not in the west. she does, however, have that "sense of place" thing, though not in a territorial, objective correlativish way.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:25:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: x spots the mark in addition to not having read epictetus and rabbi joseph of something, i don't know bruce's oeuvre as well as i might/should/could... so i don't know. but he sure is smart and interesting, and very nice as well, he walked me down the street to catch a cab. In message <2.2.16.19961123001145.46579760@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > thanks Maria. > > he's the same Bruce Boone who wrote /Century of Cloud/, right? Douglas (M)? > Douglas invited him to read in Philadelphia the one year I was at Temple > (when Douglas was still there). What a terrific writer! > > Tenney > > >Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 08:02:41 -0600 > >From: maria damon > >Subject: Re: tanks > > > >In message <2.2.16.19961122010243.495f5792@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics > >discussion group writes: > >> thanks to Jordon and Maria for the wonderful gossipy moving posts. I > >> tingle-tangle & etc. > >> > >> Maria: Bruce X? (Sonia Sanchez: "my man, you way behind the set")--but > >> Maria can you say more? > > > >bruce boone had adopted the x to see if it wd make him famous. he's > published > >on gay stuff (i saw one article many years ago on frank ohara and gay > language) > >and probably other stuff i don't know. translator, told me abt a french > author > >pascale ? he's translated for lapidus press. others here probably know more > >than i. i was on an mla panel w/ him and m davidson lo thse many years ago > on > >robert duncan and gay community (in 1987); i was the only chick, and a grad > >student too. his paper seemed to be quite a bit of hermetic > insider-knowledge > >stuff about internicene poetry-politics that i didn't understand. he's an > >old-style intellectual with a wide range of interests and sources, not a > young > >groovoid or trendoid. md > >> > >> Tenney > > > >------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 08:28:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: here here (there there) In message <2.2.16.19961123001152.46578232@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I'll second Charles A on Mei-mei as a western poet. Whenever I read or hear > one of her poems I think I'm in New Mexico; whenever I drive in New Mexico I > think I'm reading one of Mei-mei's poems. which are almost entirely > abstract (so it's no mean feets) : it's something about how the planes of > words are like the planes of mountains (plains of sky?) over in NM (I never > think of Mei-mei when I drive in AZ). > > (and then there's /Tan-Tien/, which Charles published. a whole NOTHER > story.) > > Tenney yes; tho' on the subject of abstraction; i had a student in a class, who was actually a history student, who wrote a wonderful paper on The Heat Bird as a critique of nuclear power/bomb development and the wreckage it wrought in the southwest...good research on a group of women in (nevada? colorado? new mexico?) who have suffered severe reproductive damage...etc. very very grounded in history and context.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:03:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: West ron, as a bred-in-the-bone californian who has only recently arrived on the east coast, what are your impressions of its geocultural characteristics, i.e. how is it "regional"? i'm curious since i'm such a bred-in-the-bone easterner and can't see it as an ethnographer/outsider.--md In message <199611231354.FAA00339@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I'd add Wendell Berry to poets living on the land well worth reading. > That condo complex off campus where Ken Irby lives is about as > "western" as the Ear Inn, but yes, you can (why not) get in god damn > big car and see the space if you're willing to go a few miles from Mt. > Oread in just about any direction. > > I want to second Pierre on Kenneth as one of our most underappreciated > treasures. > > When I was growing up in Berkeley, I thought "midwest" meant Reno. > Everything east of Salt Lake meant "back east." Now that I'm really > "back east," I hear people speak of Buffalo as the midwest. > > Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:16:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: <199611231354.FAA00339@dfw-ix7.ix.netcom.com> from "Ron Silliman" at Nov 23, 96 05:54:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > When I was growing up in Berkeley, I thought "midwest" meant Reno. > Everything east of Salt Lake meant "back east." Now that I'm really > "back east," I hear people speak of Buffalo as the midwest. > > Ron Buffalo IS the "mid-west", and in that light, another interesting and underrated "western" poet is Sherwood Anderson. Check out _Mid-American Chants_. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:29:58 -0500 Reply-To: Robert Drake Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Drake Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets k.a. hehir wrote: > my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could > read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean > cowboy poetry)? i was about to recommend (and was surprized nobody else had) alexi sherman, adrian c. louis, and a few other _native_ americans... but as i thought about their work, while certainly drawing on th expanse of western landscapes, they (broad generalization) seem more concerned w/ a sense of community with and in that landscape, rather than "harsh isolation". could be of necessity, considering the general forces that actively disrupt native community; but also a contrast to th traditional eurocentric vision of the western "wilderness" as hostile other... luigi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 10:55:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: here here (there there) Speaking of deictic locatives, is anyone here working in/with/on/of (and the rest of the dumptydump prepositions) deixis and stylistics, deixis and poetry, etc.? If so, would you contact me. simon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu (would you backchannel me sounds a little intimate thanks beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english dept of english and linguistics indiana university - purdue university fort wayne, indiana simon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:44:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: western poets -- of the land Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _Grain_ is a magazine from Saskatchewan (which should explain everything). There are a lot of poets of land & inheritance out west in Canada; the problem is what some of us have called 'prairie anecdotal' poems, which seem not to move much beyond broken prose & unscarred narrative. Another form that's done a lot in Canada is the 'documentary poem' & there is an interesting example of that from Gary Holthaus, in his _Circling Back_, full of documents about the settling/conquest of the American West. "If I had to recommend one book on the West, this would be it" -- Gary Snyder ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English 'The universe opens. I close. University of Alberta And open, just to surprise you.' Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 - Phyllis Webb H: 436 3320 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 15:39:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Lineaments of Desire (last of these for a while) (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1111.1111 Lineaments of Desire The construct/gender program has become increasingly complex. Each line or line-pair below represents a test-case. Because I concentrate on the code, the actual entries become a matter of preconscious or autonomic writing. The result is an odd self-portrait or production, more accurate than any- thing I could deliberately produce. So indeed a different gender is con- structed, one _across_ the entries, a matter of interpenetration or trans- gression. The output is from the last three days. girl:ok:235701:2:lover:girl lover:yes:235701:1:boy:lover groybirl:suppose so:235705:2:lulu:groybirl honey:yes:235708:0:tiffany:honey honey:yes:235710:3:tiffany:honey:loving louvre:yes:235710:0:clara:louvre:dark sumerian:hysteric:wet:lugal:yes:235710:3:ululata:lugal:wet one:two:three:four:gender:yes:235710:0:name:gender:one etuc:yppols:sselhtraerb:ynnafit:sey:235710:2:yenoh:ynnafit:sselhtraerb lunar:cool:lung:moon:yes:235710:0:sunshine:moon:cool white:black:grey:sucky:red:sure:235710:2:yellow:red:grey salt:suppurate:slave:sal:yes:235710:2:lugal:sal:slave: froth:lag:yes:235710:1:gal:lag:froth:date lovely:brilliant:hot:female:girl:235711:2:woman:female:brilliant Thu Nov 21 02:09:24 EST 1996 tough:hard:dumb!:man:ohboy!:235711:3:male:man:tough Thu Nov 21 02:10:26 EST 1996 young:old:dad:sure:235711:0:mom:dad:young Thu Nov 21 02:11:54 EST 1996 yoma:malamu:luma:ulamu:mulu:235711:2:wummy:ulamu:yoma Thu Nov 21 02:12:43 EST 1996 sure:lively:maybe true:greyghost:yes:235711:2:la:greyghost:sure Thu Nov 21 02:13:16 EST 1996 misery:death:anxiety:illness:sadness:oh yes:235713:0:sorrow:sadness:misery Thu Nov 21 04:33:32 EST 1996 sleazy:self-lit:hungry:lurid:yes:29923:3:uh, Alan:lurid:self-lit Thu Nov 21 15:02:08 EST 1996 a:b:c:thing:sure:408:3:yummy:thing:b Thu Nov 21 15:04:33 EST 1996 being:one :now:sure:yes:865:0:lulu:sure:being 235724Thu Nov 21 15:07:53 EST 1996 bad:horrible:dank:evil:yes:1861:3:love:evil:horrible 235724:Thu Nov 21 15:16:45 EST 1996 ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:53:46 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: spam Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is Dodie Bellamy. To those of you fellow listservers who are being spammed by filch and want to do something about it, this is what I've read you should do: You send the message with full headers to at the origininating account, in this case: postmaster@pair.com Frankly, I don't know if this will work with pair.com since they are different than a regular service provider. (If you ever get one of these spams from aol, the address is .) You should begin with something like the following: I received the following unsolicited bulk email ("spam"), which apparently originated from your site. Please take appropriate action to ensure this doesn't happen again. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 18:58:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: Lingo 6 Arrives Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ******************************************* Hard Press / Lingo Magazine http://www.hardpress.com ******************************************* Hard Press announces the Newest Issue of Lingo, web and paper version: Lingo 6 Autumn 1996 Fringe Narrative Frank Lima Scattered Vignettes Bill Beckley The Road to Ra Dodie Bellamy Dear David Photo Essay Margaret Morton "Jos=E9 Camacho's House Essay Nouk Bassomb The Nights of the Shanties Phillip Lopate A Date with Fassbinder & Despair Peter Occhiogrosso Art of the Narrative Charles North On & for Jim Brodey Leslie Scalapino Cobalt Warblers More Fringe Lynn Crawford Spans Cydney Chadwick Full Circle Robert Gluck The Purple Men John Yau What She Told Him While They Pretended to Watch= TV Lewis Warsh Pick Up on Tenth Street Collaboration Ed Barrett Secent Image Ben Watkins (Photographs) Poetry Laura Mullen White Paintings I-IV Lynne Zika Two Poems Joseph Lease New Year at the Unique Motel Graham Foust Two Poems David Lehman Three Poems Tom King Afterwards John Olson Two Poems Jean Donnelly Drift Peter Cole Three Poems Hugh Fox Two Poems Drew Gardner Two Poems John Latta In the Margins of a Book by Heidegger David Joel Shapiro A Found Golf Ball Tan Lin The Imitation of the Imitations of History D.E. Steward Mars Cover Art by Sam Messer Front Cover, New Morning 14" X 24", oil on canvas, 1996 Editor/Publisher Jonathan Gams Co-Editor Peter Occhiogrosso Arts Editor John Yau Contributing Editors Michael Gizzi* Susan Levin Raphael Rubinstein David Shapiro Assistant Editor Chad Odefey Art Director Barbieo Barros-Gizzi Business Manager Anne Bei Underwriting Ned Depew Webmaster UbuWeb Design *Michael Gizzi is now editor of Hard Press's Profile Series of Literature Special thanks to Michael Munshaw and Jeffrey Spear at John C. Otto, Inc., also Tom Powers. Available at 256 Locations across America. Check out our brand new web interface!!! ******************************************* Hard Press / Lingo Magazine http://www.hardpress.com ******************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 12:54:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Rochelle Kraut and Pam Grossman at Poetry City tonight! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you're in New York, come to Poetry City tonight. Shelly Kraut will be reading her poems, and Pam Grossman will be reading _her_ poems. As Kenny Goldsmith's favorite street schizo poet Orion once noted, "Shelly Kraut is the true Santa Claus." Pam is often found among the Unbearables. As usual, the party part is as important as the reading part. It's at 7. Thanks, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 12:35:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: western poets -- of the land aha! prairie anecdotal! works well with some writing i've been doing about the mpls/st paul writing scene.thanks. md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > _Grain_ is a magazine from Saskatchewan (which should explain everything). > There are a lot of poets of land & inheritance out west in Canada; the > problem is what some of us have called 'prairie anecdotal' poems, which > seem not to move much beyond broken prose & unscarred narrative. > Another form that's done a lot in Canada is the 'documentary poem' & there > is an interesting example of that from Gary Holthaus, in his _Circling > Back_, full of documents about the settling/conquest of the American West. > "If I had to recommend one book on the West, this would be it" -- Gary > Snyder > > ============================================================================== > > Douglas Barbour > Department of English 'The universe opens. I close. > University of Alberta And open, just to surprise you.' > Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 > (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 - Phyllis Webb > H: 436 3320 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:20:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Western poets Comments: To: Jay Schwartz MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for mentioning Jack Collom, Jay! He's a terrific poet and has indeed addressed matters of landscape, ecology and the West in ways which no one, I dare say even Gary Snyder, has handled with such acuity, wit & wildly associative power. Jack is gravely under-recognized, I feel, so I'll take a moment to plug his latest books, _What A Strange Way of Being Dead_, (which I reviewed earlier this year in ABR), and which is a sustained meditation on our relationship to Nature; the uncanny, giddily lyrical _The Task_; and _Wicker_ , a marvellous collaboration with Lyn Hejinian. All of these are published by Rodent Press, which may now be defunct, I'm not sure. At any rate, they're available from the Naropa Institute's bookstore: Ph # 303-444-0202. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Jay Schwartz To: POETICS Subject: Re: Western poets Date: Saturday, November 23, 1996 3:35AM Lyn Hejinian's new work A Border Comedy deals with the West, the Frontier, and borders in exciting ways. According to Kevin Killian she recently read a portion of it in conjuction with an exhibit of archival photos of the frontier at SFMOMA. Jack Collom has any number of wonderful poems in many forms about Colorado and the Western plains in general. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:35:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: West Comments: To: Ron Silliman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ... and why not mention as well Thomas McGrath? There are passages in his work, in particular _Echoes Inside The Labyrinth_ ,which invoke for me the most salient quality of The Region Formerly Known As The Great American Desert, what Bachelard calls "intimate immensity," a term which both complements and to a certain extent undermines the idea of "harsh isolation." Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Ron Silliman To: POETICS Subject: West Date: Saturday, November 23, 1996 9:00AM I'd add Wendell Berry to poets living on the land well worth reading. That condo complex off campus where Ken Irby lives is about as "western" as the Ear Inn, but yes, you can (why not) get in god damn big car and see the space if you're willing to go a few miles from Mt. Oread in just about any direction. I want to second Pierre on Kenneth as one of our most underappreciated treasures. When I was growing up in Berkeley, I thought "midwest" meant Reno. Everything east of Salt Lake meant "back east." Now that I'm really "back east," I hear people speak of Buffalo as the midwest. Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:52:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steph4848@AOL.COM Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets In response to part one of "my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean cowboy poetry?" What I think is difficult about this query is an assumed "harsh isolation" definition of the circumstance of "western writing." I suspect the idea of "harsh isolation" and "the west" is not about western writing in any large geographic sense. For example it doesn't apply to the Pacific Slope or the California side of at least the northern parts of the Sierra - which hisitorically has been much associated with notions of the sublime, nature's land of plenty, Eden etc. And it doesn't apply to the southwest - New Mexico, Arizona, at least the geographic parts of those states that that have strong non-Anglo Hispanic and Indian presences - Anastasi, Hopi, Navajo etc. - and all the attendant histories and myths. The "harsh isolation" gets more attached to Nevada's Great Basin - and its various "high desert" extensions into Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Colorado, Sothern California, etc. - where the "bleakness" appears to be much less impacted by "cultures" - Indian, Anglo or otherwise. Though I'm not as familiar with the plains states, from Dakotas to Texas, "The harsh isolation" there perhaps has a different character. I would agree that Ed Dorn, Ken Irby - students of Olson - have purposely "lived" through the land (its history, geological patterns and shapes, etc.) and written moving work within that scope in which the individual, and his moves, are directly shaped, by the facts of the landscape. In terms of the Great Basin, however, the myth of "harsh isolation" - its bleakness as a back drop or set to the personal experience - belies the history of the use of the space. Most every square inch of the Great Basin has been scoped and used for its mineral and underground water wealth. Much less visibly the military (for nuclear testing, bombing practice) maintains a huge presence across the terrain. (I think the military owns about 80% of Nevada).The land's isolation is belied by corporate, government and military habitation. Some of the prose writers (Terry Tempest Williams) have gone after the cancerous nuclear consequences of this impact. But I believe its the photographers (Robert Adams, Peter Goins, Mark Klett - and other members of the "re-photography project - and Richard Misrach ) who have done the investigating - some of it quite brave - and taken a close look at the facts of what has occured within these parts of the West. Among current poets, Laura Moriarty has some great stuff about some of these landscapes. Occasionally I think Kirk Robertson - the current poet laureate of Nevada - captures the character of living within "basin and range." This is a windy answer. Primarily I want to suggest that "harsh isolation" puts a personal and lyric limit on a area of the west that is much more complicated and pivotal (economically, culturally, etc.) in terms of national consequence - and its probably a good question as to why more poets -- to my knowledge - in the large have not touched on the subject, and photographers have. Yes -- re Kevin Killian -- the current show, CROSSING THE FRONTIER (Sandy Phillips, curator), an exploration of the use of the land in 19th and 20th Century photographs (from the 100th Meridian to the Pacific) is a wonderful and disturbing show at SF Museum of Modern Art- of which there is a good catalog published by Chronicle Books. Not without elegance, it is a definitely a post-sublime view and interpretation of Western landscapes. Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 15:06:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: shoemakers@COFC.EDU Subject: Re: queer beats In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kevin--Hate to ask for more after you just expended yourself on such a long, groovy post, but i gotta know about that "deconstruction of Burroughs's cut-up method." Do tell! steve ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 16:15:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steph4848@AOL.COM Subject: Test Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Test ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 15:20:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: here here (there there) Comments: To: maria damon MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maria, That sounds like a very interesting approach to _The Heat Bird_,which I only recently obtained and am loving. Some of what your student refers to is covered in a book called _American Ground Zero_, by Carole Gallagher, which is imperative reading - as sad a book as one cld read. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: maria damon To: POETICS Subject: Re: here here (there there) Date: Saturday, November 23, 1996 9:20AM In message <2.2.16.19961123001152.46578232@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I'll second Charles A on Mei-mei as a western poet. Whenever I read or hear > one of her poems I think I'm in New Mexico; whenever I drive in New Mexico I > think I'm reading one of Mei-mei's poems. which are almost entirely > abstract (so it's no mean feets) : it's something about how the planes of > words are like the planes of mountains (plains of sky?) over in NM (I never > think of Mei-mei when I drive in AZ). > > (and then there's /Tan-Tien/, which Charles published. a whole NOTHER > story.) > > Tenney yes; tho' on the subject of abstraction; i had a student in a class, who was actually a history student, who wrote a wonderful paper on The Heat Bird as a critique of nuclear power/bomb development and the wreckage it wrought in the southwest...good research on a group of women in (nevada? colorado? new mexico?) who have suffered severe reproductive damage...etc. very very grounded in history and context.--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 13:21:25 PST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Franklin Bruno Subject: benjamin queries Just looking for a little information here: 1) Is there an English edition of Benjamin's -One-Way Street- either in print or likely to be found used? 2) Does anyone know of a source for -tapes- (I need a tape, not a transcript) of any of Benjamin's radio broadcasts, esp. the ones for children? 3) Are large chunks of the collected writings still untranslated, i.e. some of the -Konvoluts- (notes for the Arcades Project)? Backchannel is fine. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 14:38:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" k.a. hehir wrote: > my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could > read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean > cowboy poetry)? (2) are there any prairie poets who,have been able to > transcend the lingo of the farm/slough/seasons/quanset(sp?) > hut/hockey/trapping/chiasmustic seasonal changes. William Everson might help. Check out his poems (Black Sparrow has published a few collections) as well as his essays, particularly _Archetype West: The Pacific Coast as a Literary Region_, from Oyez Press... -Stephen Cope ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 13:17:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Crash! Comments: To: Herb Levy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Crash has been out here for some months now. It's brilliant. I still think about it almost every day. Its discussion of technology and the body in Euro-American culture is unsurpassed in its complexity and insights. And the use of the form of the pornographic film--wow. Definitely a must see, though not for the weak of heart. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 18:41:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Canessa Park reading report 11-17-96 Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Comments: cc: AERIALEDGE@aol.com, Lppl@aol.com, jms@acmenet.net, Maz881@aol.com, Marisa.Januzzi@m.cc.utah.edu, drothschild@penguin.com, Daniel_Bouchard@hmco.com, jarnot@pipeline.com, jdavis@panix.com, lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU, wmfuller@ix.netcom.com, welford@hawaii.edu, fittermn@is.nyu.edu, daviesk@is4.nyu.edu, lgoodman@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU, mwinter@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu, I.Lightman@uea.ac.uk, DGardner@MCA.com, sab5@psu.edu, eryque@acmenet.net, kunos@lanminds.com, akandab@ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had a cold but I bundled up and went down to Canessa Park Gallery in downtown San Francisco, vowing not to talk excitedly at anybody lest I send an overabundance of cold germs at them. MC Avery Burns introduced Etel Adnan and she read first, a diminutive, timid, sweet Palestinian lady who lives in Sausalito. She read a sequence of what she called "returns" from her new book, _Manifestations of the Voyage_, written in 1988-9. They're returns, she said, to the earth, left behind since 1969 when humans walked on the moon. Some of the lines I caught were: "exile, immigration, the voyage are the stations of knowledge" "There is another kind of silence. It belongs neither to the leaves nor to the dead." "I love rains which carry desires to oceans" "my hair spins with sunflowers" "I stand on a ladder between two infinities. I don't know whether I'm in this world or into its mirror." "happiness was fierce on the beaches in late afternoons" "Death is like a talk show" "we carry the burden of subversion and astonishment" "I go with speed and love into the night" "how shall we transform pomegranite seeds into alchemical vapors?" "alarmed by their excessive sap, the sky runs to the rescue, as a woman would" "I saw authority changed into an ape-like adolescent" "words became my landscape" "when dawn explodes far and away, my body is near elimination" "all the nigaras unleashed on a single cell in my brain" "then it was time for ice cream and biscuits downtown" "I came back to the heart of the halogen light. The Greek Empress moves forward, forward" "immobility has doomed the voyage to nothingness" After a break, writer and Mills College teacher Stephen Ratcliffe read from 3 works, _Sculpture_, _Conversation_, and _Ideas Mirror_ (named after Drayton's sonnet sequence of 1590-1610). The distinctive element I came away from Stephen's reading with was his exploration of the appositive, particularly the adjectival appositive. Some of his lines were: "space, blank, may be said to divide lines on a page" "waking up elsewhere, in brackets" "three red shapes swimming in place of philosophy" an epigraph from Heidegger: "whatever lingers awhile becomes present as it lingers in the jointure...between a twofold absence" "like a bird in place" "two arms pulling into her" "person upstairs, for example, before thinking" The audience included Pamela Lu (who's reading with Charles Cantalupo at Canessa this Sunday), Mary Burger, Robert Grenier, Steve Tills, Eric Selland, Renee Gladman, Barbara Guest, and Margie Sloan. ********************************** sjcarll@slip.net Steve Carll http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mags/antenym http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/antenym In seed- sense the sea stars you out, innermost, forever. --Paul Celan ********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 21:50:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: queer beats In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII which is really Brion Gysin's cut-up method, right? Or was that part of the presentation? --Gwyn On Sat, 23 Nov 1996 shoemakers@COFC.EDU wrote: > Kevin--Hate to ask for more after you just expended yourself on such a > long, groovy post, but i gotta know about that "deconstruction of > Burroughs's cut-up method." Do tell! steve > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 19:58:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dan & Lynda L. Imburgia" Subject: Re: benjamin queries MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BBD978.C2A7CB60" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBD978.C2A7CB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, Benjamin's "One Wat Street..." is in English, London, NLB, 1978. = "illuminations," "Reflections," etc. as well. No English Trans. of = "Passagen-Werk," or "Arcades Project," (Konvolut V, i believe) though i = was told by one bookseller may be available next fall through Harv UP. = I also have been looking for tapes or transcripts of his radio = broadcasts, would appreciate it if anyone can help thanks, dan dan imburgia or dimburgi@u.washington.edu ---------- From: Franklin Bruno[SMTP:BRUNO@HUMNET.UCLA.EDU] Sent: Saturday, November 23, 1996 1:21 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: benjamin queries Just looking for a little information here: 1) Is there an English edition of Benjamin's -One-Way Street- either in print or likely to be found used? 2) Does anyone know of a source for -tapes- (I need a tape, not a transcript) of any of Benjamin's radio broadcasts, esp. the ones for children? 3) Are large chunks of the collected writings still untranslated, i.e. some of the -Konvoluts- (notes for the Arcades Project)? 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Sherburne" Subject: Re: benjamin queries Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" my understanding is that _One Way Street_ is still available from Verso in England, but that it's out of print in the US. Some selections from it, you may know, are included in _Reflections_ (Schocken). philiphughsherburne brownudeptofenglish *providenceriusofa* "regret is the processed cheese of emotion" --bruce andrews ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:06:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: more Mei-mei Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Maria wrote: >yes; tho' on the subject of abstraction; i had a student in a class, who was >actually a history student, who wrote a wonderful paper on The Heat Bird as a >critique of nuclear power/bomb development and the wreckage it wrought in the >southwest...good research on a group of women in (nevada? colorado? new mexico?) >who have suffered severe reproductive damage...etc. very very grounded in >history and context.--md Maria--do you think there's this same sort of historical specificity in /Empathy/, say? I'd guess not but I don't really know. (I chaired a strange panel--my fault no doubt--at the Tucson Poetry Festival some years back--Mei-mei was one of the poets. I didn't manage to ask anything very useful, I think, but mentioned a la Ashbery, I dunno quite in what connection anymore, that Kennth Koch used to say (in class) that reading Ashbery was like: going up to his doorbell and ringing, being let in, being given a fascinating if kinda quick tour of the apt., being all warmed up and ready to settle down for a good talk and visit, and finding oneself suddenly somehow back at JA's front door, hand shaken, shown out. Mei-mei averred as how she went to visit JA once, and that's exactly what actually happened. I like that. koan for some strange nation.... Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:18:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aha! So some USAmericans stole the name _Grain_ off our Canadian litmag _Grain_ for their own purposes! Just goes to show. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:25:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: dildo update Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am glad that this serious subject has again found its way back into our discussions. I, for a while, was nervous about reminding people of that highly important poem , H.D.'s "Dodona"" Part XII begins Are these ashes in my hand or a wand to conjure a butterfly ....... I am confident that experienced HD readers (such as M. B.) will know what is going on there. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:36:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: here here (there there) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the 60s Keith Wilson was writing some pretty interesting western poetry. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 01:46:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: math Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This question has been bugging me for a week, ever since I thought of it: What is 7 divided by everything? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:53:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: math In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Zero. On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, George Bowering wrote: > This question has been bugging me for a week, ever since I thought of it: > > What is 7 divided by everything? > > > > > George Bowering. > , > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Tel. 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe: 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 04:55:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: East > >Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:03:38 -0600 >From: maria damon >Subject: Re: West > >ron, as a bred-in-the-bone californian who has only recently arrived on the east >coast, what are your impressions of its geocultural characteristics, i.e. how is >it "regional"? i'm curious since i'm such a bred-in-the-bone easterner and can't >see it as an ethnographer/outsider.--md > Actually, Maria, I was born in the shadows of the Hanford nuclear reactor plant outside of southeastern Washington (as was Michael Amnasan), roughly one year after its most famous product was dropped on the people of Nagasaki. But it's true that my mother's family goes back in the Berkeley/Oakland areas into the 1880s. The differences between Philly and Berkeley are too many to catalog and I'm still coming across them every week if not every day. Some of the more obvious seem to me to be: The sledgehammer shift of seasons, nothing like the gliding subtleties of California. The sense of history: families that have been here two and three hundred years (especially out where I am on the Main Line) have really consolidated their hold on things. No decent Mexican restaurants. NFL starts in the afternoon on Sundays and lasts until after midnight. You can drive through several states in a single afternoon. 50 zillion colleges hereabouts really shifts the balance between public and private higher education (not sure what it means, but it must mean somethin'). [I've been invited to do more things at Penn in 18 months that I was at UC Berkeley in the last 18 years.] NO good bookstores. I realize how spoiled I was to live one block from Small Press Distribution (sob). I had the idea that you could look at and browse and touch a book of poems before you bought it. No real reading series here at all. Too close to NYC in one sense. There's a big gap, so far as I can tell, between writers still in college (Josh Schuster, who's on the list, has been the major mover hereabouts; hopefully Louis Cabris and Gregg Biglieri [from New College to Temple] will step things up some) and the older "mid-career" types who live in Philadelphia for reasons other than that's the big city where they moved to become poets. (i.e., people don't move to Philly for that reason, they move to NYC or SF) Liquor stores as a function of the state. Automobile registration as a mom & pop shop (closest thing down here to NYC's bodegas). The mafia as local spectator sport (we're a two-team town; NYC is a 5 team town -- they take free agency VERY seriously). The Mummers ain't the Cockettes. Children out here are taught to call people "Mr" & "Mrs" and their parents will get mad at you if you suggest that they use your first name. Flag day is taken seriously (Betsy Ross was a local and is treated as same). Ed Rendell IS Dianne Feinstein (they even look alike). People think that Krishna using her maiden name is one of those "kooky California" things and so they just call her Mrs Silliman anyway. Much better radio. You don't realize just how lousy San Francisco radio is until you hear the choices out here (now if only we had a Pacifica station). You get four times the house for the same amount of money. The earth don't shake. I see the kinds of supports that freeway overpasses have here and shudder to imagine what would happen when and if.... Brick as a building material. The automobile tire as the standard unit of litter. Really solid local poets, Julia Blumenreich, Gil Ott, Eli Goldblatt, a lot of the folks around 6ix (in that sense, not unlike DC or San Diego), as well as us transplants. Creeks that would be called rivers if they were in California. Mountains that are no larger than Albany Hill. No baseball scores from the west coast. The Amish and Mennonites and Quakers as an active presence in the community and region. Black buggies with big orange triangles. Old stone farm houses everywhere (beautiful to look at but they have small rooms and problematic fixtures [electricity and plumbing as "add ons"]). Email as your primary contact with other poets.... Shovelling snow or raking leaves as a "must-do" chore. What else? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:38:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: queer beats if u read harold norse's memoirs of a bastard angel, it's *his* cut-up method. ownership and intellectual property weren't really a part of the presentation, which was marvelous, very touching and smart.--md In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > which is really Brion Gysin's cut-up method, right? Or was that part of > the presentation? --Gwyn > > On Sat, 23 Nov 1996 shoemakers@COFC.EDU wrote: > > > Kevin--Hate to ask for more after you just expended yourself on such a > > long, groovy post, but i gotta know about that "deconstruction of > > Burroughs's cut-up method." Do tell! steve > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:46:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: East thanks ron. i relate to the mr and mrs part, except that since my dad was "dr damon," i called everyone "dr and mrs," thinking that "mr" was belittling. our nextdoor neighbors for a while when i was very young let their kids call them by their first names. their daughter, my age, also told me that they "didn't believe in spanking." i assumed she was lying. spanking was like eating, not something one believed in, but something that happened.--md In message <199611241255.EAA20901@dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > > > >Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:03:38 -0600 > >From: maria damon > >Subject: Re: West > > > >ron, as a bred-in-the-bone californian who has only recently arrived > on the east > >coast, what are your impressions of its geocultural characteristics, > i.e. how is > >it "regional"? i'm curious since i'm such a bred-in-the-bone easterner > and can't > >see it as an ethnographer/outsider.--md > > > > > Actually, Maria, I was born in the shadows of the Hanford nuclear > reactor plant outside of southeastern Washington (as was Michael > Amnasan), roughly one year after its most famous product was dropped on > the people of Nagasaki. > > But it's true that my mother's family goes back in the Berkeley/Oakland > areas into the 1880s. > > The differences between Philly and Berkeley are too many to catalog and > I'm still coming across them every week if not every day. Some of the > more obvious seem to me to be: > > The sledgehammer shift of seasons, nothing like the gliding subtleties > of California. > > The sense of history: families that have been here two and three > hundred years (especially out where I am on the Main Line) have really > consolidated their hold on things. > > No decent Mexican restaurants. > > NFL starts in the afternoon on Sundays and lasts until after midnight. > > You can drive through several states in a single afternoon. > > 50 zillion colleges hereabouts really shifts the balance between public > and private higher education (not sure what it means, but it must mean > somethin'). [I've been invited to do more things at Penn in 18 months > that I was at UC Berkeley in the last 18 years.] > > NO good bookstores. I realize how spoiled I was to live one block from > Small Press Distribution (sob). I had the idea that you could look at > and browse and touch a book of poems before you bought it. > > No real reading series here at all. Too close to NYC in one sense. > There's a big gap, so far as I can tell, between writers still in > college (Josh Schuster, who's on the list, has been the major mover > hereabouts; hopefully Louis Cabris and Gregg Biglieri [from New College > to Temple] will step things up some) and the older "mid-career" types > who live in Philadelphia for reasons other than that's the big city > where they moved to become poets. (i.e., people don't move to Philly > for that reason, they move to NYC or SF) > > Liquor stores as a function of the state. Automobile registration as a > mom & pop shop (closest thing down here to NYC's bodegas). > > The mafia as local spectator sport (we're a two-team town; NYC is a 5 > team town -- they take free agency VERY seriously). > > The Mummers ain't the Cockettes. > > Children out here are taught to call people "Mr" & "Mrs" and their > parents will get mad at you if you suggest that they use your first > name. > > Flag day is taken seriously (Betsy Ross was a local and is treated as > same). > > Ed Rendell IS Dianne Feinstein (they even look alike). > > People think that Krishna using her maiden name is one of those "kooky > California" things and so they just call her Mrs Silliman anyway. > > Much better radio. You don't realize just how lousy San Francisco radio > is until you hear the choices out here (now if only we had a Pacifica > station). > > You get four times the house for the same amount of money. > > The earth don't shake. I see the kinds of supports that freeway > overpasses have here and shudder to imagine what would happen when and > if.... > > Brick as a building material. The automobile tire as the standard unit > of litter. > > Really solid local poets, Julia Blumenreich, Gil Ott, Eli Goldblatt, a > lot of the folks around 6ix (in that sense, not unlike DC or San > Diego), as well as us transplants. > > Creeks that would be called rivers if they were in California. > Mountains that are no larger than Albany Hill. > > No baseball scores from the west coast. > > The Amish and Mennonites and Quakers as an active presence in the > community and region. Black buggies with big orange triangles. > > Old stone farm houses everywhere (beautiful to look at but they have > small rooms and problematic fixtures [electricity and plumbing as "add > ons"]). > > Email as your primary contact with other poets.... > > Shovelling snow or raking leaves as a "must-do" chore. > > What else? > Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:48:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: more Mei-mei In message <2.2.16.19961124010953.4dbf32a0@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Maria wrote: > > >yes; tho' on the subject of abstraction; i had a student in a class, who was > >actually a history student, who wrote a wonderful paper on The Heat Bird as > a > >critique of nuclear power/bomb development and the wreckage it wrought in > the > >southwest...good research on a group of women in (nevada? colorado? new > mexico?) > >who have suffered severe reproductive damage...etc. very very grounded in > >history and context.--md > > Maria--do you think there's this same sort of historical specificity in > /Empathy/, say? I'd guess not but I don't really know. > > (I chaired a strange panel--my fault no doubt--at the Tucson Poetry Festival > some years back--Mei-mei was one of the poets. I didn't manage to ask > anything very useful, I think, but mentioned a la Ashbery, I dunno quite in > what connection anymore, that Kennth Koch used to say (in class) that > reading Ashbery was like: going up to his doorbell and ringing, being let > in, being given a fascinating if kinda quick tour of the apt., being all > warmed up and ready to settle down for a good talk and visit, and finding > oneself suddenly somehow back at JA's front door, hand shaken, shown out. > Mei-mei averred as how she went to visit JA once, and that's exactly what > actually happened. I like that. koan for some strange nation.... > > Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:49:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: more Mei-mei oops, fired that one off before responding. i don't know Empathy well, but i'd like to think that a case for historical specificity can be made for any piece of writing.--md In message <2.2.16.19961124010953.4dbf32a0@pop.azstarnet.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Maria wrote: > > >yes; tho' on the subject of abstraction; i had a student in a class, who was > >actually a history student, who wrote a wonderful paper on The Heat Bird as > a > >critique of nuclear power/bomb development and the wreckage it wrought in > the > >southwest...good research on a group of women in (nevada? colorado? new > mexico?) > >who have suffered severe reproductive damage...etc. very very grounded in > >history and context.--md > > Maria--do you think there's this same sort of historical specificity in > /Empathy/, say? I'd guess not but I don't really know. > > (I chaired a strange panel--my fault no doubt--at the Tucson Poetry Festival > some years back--Mei-mei was one of the poets. I didn't manage to ask > anything very useful, I think, but mentioned a la Ashbery, I dunno quite in > what connection anymore, that Kennth Koch used to say (in class) that > reading Ashbery was like: going up to his doorbell and ringing, being let > in, being given a fascinating if kinda quick tour of the apt., being all > warmed up and ready to settle down for a good talk and visit, and finding > oneself suddenly somehow back at JA's front door, hand shaken, shown out. > Mei-mei averred as how she went to visit JA once, and that's exactly what > actually happened. I like that. koan for some strange nation.... > > Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:27:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: the poets and land/Wm. Everson In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII William Everson's big collected poems from Black Sparrow Press is called /A Prodigious Thrust,/ one of those tit(il)les that always stops me in amazement and I smack my forehead and go "I-don't-be-LIEVE-he called his book that!" Although you have to admit it FAR outdoes Robert Bly on the manliness quotient. Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:43:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: benjamin queries yes, there is a U.K. Verso edition of _One-Way Street and Other Wrtings_, this is also true of the Baudelaire book, part of which is in _Illuminations_ -- St Mark's used to get them on the sly -- some American booksellers (a few) have ability to get British books -- Olsson's in DC, more than one Boston store seem to have that "connection." A good book search service might turn those up, or maybe Serendipity in Berkeley. . . Much of _One-Way Street & Other Writings_ is in _Reflections_-- tho in the Brit you get all of "One-Way Street," "A Small History of Photography" and "Edward Fuchs, Collector and Historian." Harvard is bringing out over the next several years a Collected Benjamin, the first one slated for this month-- don't know what it includes-- certainly the Arcades Project will be represented. Verso's also supposed to be bringing out a biography of Benjamin that's been very well received in Europe, not at work so can't get you the author. I'll let the list know when these are available. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:59:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: math In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 7/everything = mind/body = 42 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 12:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rosemary Ceravolo Subject: Re: spam In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Filch? What is filch, the ingredients in Spam? Rosemary .................. On Thu, 21 Nov 1996 dbkk@SIRIUS.COM wrote: > This is Dodie Bellamy. > > To those of you fellow listservers who are being spammed by filch and want > to do something about it, this is what I've read you should do: > > You send the message with full headers to at the origininating > account, in this case: > > postmaster@pair.com > > Frankly, I don't know if this will work with pair.com since they are > different than a regular service provider. (If you ever get one of these > spams from aol, the address is .) > > You should begin with something like the following: > > I received the following unsolicited bulk email ("spam"), which apparently > originated from your site. Please take appropriate action to ensure this > doesn't happen again. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 11:41:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan Raphael Dlugonski Subject: Re: Western poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Speaking up for the northwest corner-- there's William Stafford, Theordore Roethke, and less know 'regional' poets like George Venn and Laura Winter (both write of the northwest's high deserts). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:42:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert zamsky Subject: Re: benjamin queries In-Reply-To: <7B417074A11@113hum9.humnet.ucla.edu> from "Franklin Bruno" at Nov 23, 96 01:21:25 pm Content-Type: text A bookstore that has always come through for me with even the most difficult or obscure queries has been the Seminary Coop Bookstore in Chicago. Yoou can reach them at books@semcoop.com Rob Z> > Just looking for a little information here: > > 1) Is there an English edition of Benjamin's -One-Way Street- either > in print or likely to be found used? > 2) Does anyone know of a source for -tapes- (I need a tape, not a > transcript) of any of Benjamin's radio broadcasts, esp. the ones for > children? > 3) Are large chunks of the collected writings still untranslated, > i.e. some of the -Konvoluts- (notes for the Arcades Project)? > > Backchannel is fine. > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 15:27:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Western poets Let's not forget Chester Sprats, born in Hibbing, I believe, worked on a lif ranch in Cora Wyo. for most of his life. Inventor of the poetic form called Yippi-ti-haiku - a three-liner with syllables 11-8-8, & must include the word "stirrup". Here's a sample: I lifted up mine eyes unto them Rockies where ends at last the endless plain and said - I think it's gonna rain. Whoops - musta been one of Chester's juvenilia. I see he left out the stirrup. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:06:48 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: math MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aldon L. Nielsen wrote: > > 7/everything = mind/body = 42 Therefore everything = 7/42 = 1/6. It's a small world after all. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 13:33:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: John Wieners (Poetry City 11/7) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, I remember that in 1966 John Wieners would read for about 15 minutes. Once in Montreal, he read for 15 minutes, then took a long break (in nearby bar) and then read the same poems, for another 15 minutes. You know, it was okay! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: In the News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Electronic Poetry Center is listed on p. 34 of the current _Poets & Writers_ magazine (Nov/Dec 1996). This issue has a several page feature on "Literary E-Zines". Somewhat of a skewed treatment I'd say. (Lines something like - a hot spot for the emerging new writer to first see publication and - accepts previously published work and simultaneous submissions! This last comment painting the electronic press as a kind of bastard second to print and an easy score ... ) Another note, my review of _Poems for the Millennium_ is just out in the most recent issue of _Agni_. ------------------------------------------------------ | Loss Glazier | ------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:35:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Lee Chapman points out to me that John Moritz should be added to the list. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 17:59:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: West > >Buffalo IS the "mid-west", Not possible. Ohio is the east, and Buffalo is east of that. Of course when I was growing up in NY, Ohio was the west. And Staten Island was definitely the midwest (this was before the Verrazano Bridge). --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:27:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Western poets >Let's not forget Chester Sprats, born in Hibbing Let's not forget Bob Zimmerman either, eh? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 18:30:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: oh give me a home >Clearly, some poets feel compelled to confront "landscape" "Feel" "compelled" "confront" -- nah. Some folks just seem to breath it in and out. Me, I'm with Maria, in exile from my true coastal home(s), but even us coastal types can get Kansas when it's Irby or McCrary talking. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 21:44:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Canessa Park reading report 11-17-96 Thanks to Steve Carll for sharing the Canessa Park reading. Etel Adnan has been significant in my reading, and I was glad to hear about her. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 00:53:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wendy Battin Subject: math/ what you get for absolutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII George, Everything is one. 7/1 = 7. Everything is nothing. 7/0 is irrational. Take your pick. Wendy, courtesy of Sirius Cybernetics ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:20:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: sheets of sound (sound of sheets) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to take Ron Silliman's beautiful post about Philly versus Berkeley and set it to music--say, My Favorite Things? say, as done by Coltrane? anyway thanks for the lovely post Ron. (how about: treated drinking water that once lived in the Schuykill?) or the Restaurant Renaissance (do they still call it that, talk about it? there's a great place here in Tucson--Presidio Grill--that folks keep telling me is just like a NYC restaurant--but really it's just like a Restaurant Renaissance restaurant [only better done]) Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:26:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Mr. who? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 08:46:07 -0600 >From: maria damon >Subject: Re: East > >thanks ron. i relate to the mr and mrs part, except that since my dad was "dr >damon," i called everyone "dr and mrs," thinking that "mr" was belittling. our >nextdoor neighbors for a while when i was very young let their kids call them by >their first names. their daughter, my age, also told me that they "didn't >believe in spanking." i assumed she was lying. spanking was like eating, not >something one believed in, but something that happened.--md moving out here to Tucson from mostly NYC (with a little greater Philadelphia thrown in at the last minute) c. etat 40, I was really thrown by all the dental receptionists happily calling me (right off the bat) tenney. now it just seems like polite doing business. coming east, the sudden surge of Dark Suits at O'Hare feels like a border checkpoint.... (but I still teach Ashbery and O'Hara and Koch in my classes--will have to throw in that particular towel soon I guess)(also I love teaching /Bartleby/ to undergrads and having [getting] to explain what an airshaft is) T. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:40:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: West Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >>Buffalo IS the "mid-west", When I was a kid in B.C. I used to hear about the Dodgers making a "western trip". This meant Chicago and St. Louis. Ridiculous. The beginning of the east is Duluth, for sure. Duluth is the first eastern city you see when yr heading eastward on Highway 2. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 23:37:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Convolut-ed message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Harvard is bringing out over the next several years a Collected Benjamin, the >first one slated for this month-- don't know what it includes-- certainly the >Arcades Project will be represented. Verso's also supposed to be bringing out >a biography of Benjamin that's been very well received in Europe, not at work >so can't get you the author. I'll let the list know when these are available. > >--Rod !!!!! great news. ("workers bravo") ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:53:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: math/ what you get for absolutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Okay, it is becoming obvious that all the intellectuals on this list will never get me to understand what 7 divided by everything is. Well, I dont care! But here is another question: How come "there's no time like the present"? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:56:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: sheets of sound (sound of sheets) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I too enjoyed the long and sweet Silliman post; and of course thought of all sorts of differences.For one thing, Berkeley is west of Duluth, and that must count for something. Regarding Tenney's header: I once saw John Coltrane's whole classic quartet lying on the beach in Oregon, sleeping in the sun. Under sheets of sand. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 02:26:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Re: math/ what you get for absolutes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There's some time like the present but it ended about five minutes ago. On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, George Bowering wrote: > Okay, it is becoming obvious that all the intellectuals on this list will > never get me to understand what 7 divided by everything is. Well, I dont > care! > > But here is another question: > > How come "there's no time like the present"? > > > > > George Bowering. > , > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 > e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca > http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html images: http://www.cs.unca.edu/~davidson/pix/ Tel. 718-857-3671 CuSeeMe: 166.84.250.149 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:33:57 JST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Geraets Subject: action poems in japan Relayed another one sometime back, but this time my Japanese creative writing students did a somewhat different action poem. They entered the room wearing opaque raincoats, opened brightly-coloured umbrellas above their head, floral & geometric patterns, one plain. They'd taped a crackly old version of 'Singing in the Rain' off a video and this was playing on the tape recorder on the table. They circle the room, weaving in and out of other students, desks etc, not saying anything but kind of skipping & running. End of the 3rd circuit, they stop at the front. First one: I hate rain, throws the bright umbrella to the ground, Second: I hate rain too, umbrella on ground, Third: I hate rain three, and throw. Next a cassette flies across the room: First explains later to me that she'd retrieved it and threw it down because their piece hated rain and it contradicted that. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:05:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: West Comments: To: Judy Roitman In-Reply-To: <199611242359.RAA17715@titania.math.ukans.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hey, I love Duluth as much as the next guy, but after 11 years in the deep west side of Buffalo watching the sun set over Lake Erie ("if I had my way, I'd shuffle off to Buffalo / sit by the Lake, and watch the world go by") you know you're looking at the midwest. In fact, Buffalo's got more in common with Duluth (or Lawrence, for that matter) than it does with Philadelphia--when Harvey Brown called his press Frontier Press he was referring to the Niagara Frontier. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:23:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:40:51 -0800 from On Sun, 24 Nov 1996 22:40:51 -0800 George Bowering said: >>> >>>Buffalo IS the "mid-west", > > >When I was a kid in B.C. I used to hear about the Dodgers making a "western >trip". This meant Chicago and St. Louis. Ridiculous. The beginning of the >east is Duluth, for sure. Duluth is the first eastern city you see when yr >heading eastward on Highway 2. > Yes, coming from west, the distinctive onion domes, mosques & pagodas of Duluth certainly give a marvelous Oriental impression there by the shorss of Gitchee Gumee. But those of us who grew up in that region always considered Duluth the last NORTHERN city. Beyond was pine trees, loons, bears, wolves & snow. - HG >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 >e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:49:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: Mr. who? tenney sez: (also I love teaching /Bartleby/ > to undergrads and having [getting] to explain what an airshaft is) > > T. i once taught "the bridge" & other hart crane to a group of advanced undergraduates, one of whom insisted that the mention of elevators referred to grain elevators (silos) rather than those things in tall buildings that people use to get around.-md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:10:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: u.s. places MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit having lived in both the midwest and buffalo, ny, I can unequivocably say that buffalo is the eastern edge of the great lakes cities. eastern in that many of its cultural influences are NYC rather than chicago, detroit, etc., and great lakes in that it is part of the upper rustbelt stretching from milwaukee through gary to toledo and cleveland. it's an odd and wonderful place and i miss it dearly. minneapolis is a trip unto itself. we have an abundance of literary magazines, many of which are quite good, yet few reading series for the aesthetic tastes of poeple on this list. the LOFT is huge and kind of siphons the energy, i think. great twin cities mags and presses include DISTURBED GUILLOTINE, POETIC BRIEFS, the upcoming CROSS CULTURAL POETICS which will feature a section on the often neglected WATTS WRITERS GROUP, the satirical EXILE, COFFEE HOUSE, DETOUR, jonathon brannen's beautifully produced STEPPING STONES chapbooks, and a couple people doing audio tapes who are soon to release an audio version of McCaffery's PANOPTICON. Lots going on; we just don't see each other very often. Salon, anyone? Jeff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 08:51:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: math 7 divided by everything is still 7, and always will be. This, by the way, also resolves the perennial mind/body problem, i.e., because it's still there. No further questions? Class dismissed. Or, as Fields said to West, outside the Present View Motel in Boulders Utah: "Believe you me, my little Foofoo, there's no time like the Present." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 07:29:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: EyeRhymes Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable EYERHYMES*EYERHYMES*EYERHYMES*EYERHYMES*EYERHYMES*EYERHYMES*EYERHYMES* 12 to 16 June 1997 a multi-disciplinary, international conference on Visual Poetry at the University of Alberta, Edmonton, Canada mailing address: Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies 352 Athabasca Hall University of Alberta Edmonton, Canada T6G 2E8 tel: (403) 492-2972 fax: (403) 492-4967 e-mail: eyerhyme@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca website: http://www.ualberta.ca/~eyerhyme/ Call for papers and proposals -------------------------- The organizers invite proposals for papers dealing with various aspects of the historical and contemporary interface between literature and the visual arts. Some of the topics include: Technopaignia and the Classical Tradition; Pattern Poetry, Heraldic Art and Visual Forms of Baroque Writing; =46uturism, Constructivism, Dada; Concrete Poetry; Artist=BCs Books; Visual Essays (such as those by Wyndham Lewis and Marshall McLuhan); Advertising and Poster Art; Calligraphy, Fraktur and Typewriter Art; Hieroglyphic, Ideographic and Pictographic Languages; The Impact of Print Technologies, Typefaces and Computer Graphics on Literat= ure; Textual Elements in Painting; Work in New Media =E3 Digital and Holographic Poetry; Collectors and Collections; Creative Dialogues Between Poets and Painters; Poetics of the Written Word. Papers may be submitted for oral/audio-visual presentation, or for display in the "poster" format used at scientific conferences. In that case, the texts and commentaries should be printed on separate sheets that can be easily mounted on partitions 4 by 5 feet (1.2 by 1.5 meters). Submissions of such "poster" papers will be accepted from individuals unable to attend the conference in person, as well as participants who wish to forgo reading their presentations. These "posters" will be available for viewing during the conference, and will constitute part of its proceedings. Sessions will be organized according to themes or periods, and suggestions are welcome for both potential speakers and topics for discussion. Eye Rhymes is open to presentations made in other media. The organizers are especially interested in soliciting papers dealing with Canadian visual poetry, as well as obtaining proposals from creative practitioners. Abstracts should be no more than 300 words, and must be accompanied by a one page resum=E9 covering relevant biographical and professional details. Twenty minutes will be allowed for each oral presentation, though written versions of papers may be longer. Please indicate if you would require financial assistance to attend the conference, or if your participation would be contingent upon your ability to arrange financing from non-conference sources. Provide all of your communication co-ordinates on a separate sheet: name, complete mailing address, phone numbers (office and residence), fax number and e-mail. The review of submissions is ongoing until the end of 1996. A creative component will accompany the conference, with exhibitions, performances, and panel discussions involving visual poets. The working language of Eye Rhymes will be English. Additional information, concerning publication and other details, will be provided in future communications. sponsored by: the Faculty of Arts the Department of Art and Design the Department of English the Department of Modern Languages and Comparative Studies the Bruce Peel Special Collections Library the Canadian Institute of Ukrainian Studies Please circulate this proposal. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D Douglas Barbour Department of English 'The universe opens. I close. University of Alberta And open, just to surprise you.' Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX: (403) 492 8142 - Phyllis Webb H: 436 3320 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:39:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul McDonald - Bon Air Branch Subject: Re: math/ what you get for absolutes "Paradise is exactly like where you are right now, Only much, much... BETTER!!!" ---Laurie Anderson "Language is a Virus" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:37:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan A Levin Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I can't resist: Hail to the Victors Valiant Hail to the Conquering Heros Hail, Hail To Michigan The Leaders and Best Hail to the Victors Valiant Hail to the Conquering Heros Hail, Hail to Michigan The CHAMPIONS OF THE WEST Just fortuitous that the Wolverines beat Ohio State this weekend, crushing their hopes of a national championship. I always thought the song a little odd, coming from St. Louis, which, I find, Easterners tend to think of as the South. I never understood that until I finally saw the film of Meet Me in St. Louis. It was the south, but is now the industrial midwest, just like Detroit/Ann Arbor. Hoping actually to meet some of you in D.C.-- Jonathan Levin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:42:33 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: POLLET@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Subject: western poets: Lew Welch Unless I missed it, nobody's mentioned Lew Welch. Ring of Bone, Collected Poems 1950-1971, Grey Fox Press. Try Song of the Turkey Buzzard. I never met him, but I've seen him fly over. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:47:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sharon Elizabeth Wood Subject: Re: math/ what you get for absolutes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Because the present is the only no time -- or seven divided by everything. Sharon Wood At 02:26 AM 11/25/96 -0500, you wrote: >> But here is another question: >> >> How come "there's no time like the present"? >> George Bowering. >> , ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:57:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: East Comments: To: Ron Silliman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ron, That was a truly beautiful litany. I'm just wondering, though: are the Cockettes you mention THE Cockettes, as in the ones who used to feature Goldie Glitters? Goldie was a good friend of my wife's. Last we heard, he was in England doing something wonderful. I never met him, but we had a long talk once on the phone when he was living in Venice. I had just finished reading Rafferty's review of "Paris Is Burning" and was watching the first game of the World Series where Kirk Gibson smashed one out of the park at the last saving moment and the Dodgers went on to take the best of 7. What does all this mean? I have no idea. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Ron Silliman To: POETICS Subject: East Date: Sunday, November 24, 1996 7:05AM > >Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 09:03:38 -0600 >From: maria damon >Subject: Re: West > >ron, as a bred-in-the-bone californian who has only recently arrived on the east >coast, what are your impressions of its geocultural characteristics, i.e. how is >it "regional"? i'm curious since i'm such a bred-in-the-bone easterner and can't >see it as an ethnographer/outsider.--md > Actually, Maria, I was born in the shadows of the Hanford nuclear reactor plant outside of southeastern Washington (as was Michael Amnasan), roughly one year after its most famous product was dropped on the people of Nagasaki. But it's true that my mother's family goes back in the Berkeley/Oakland areas into the 1880s. The differences between Philly and Berkeley are too many to catalog and I'm still coming across them every week if not every day. Some of the more obvious seem to me to be: The sledgehammer shift of seasons, nothing like the gliding subtleties of California. The sense of history: families that have been here two and three hundred years (especially out where I am on the Main Line) have really consolidated their hold on things. No decent Mexican restaurants. NFL starts in the afternoon on Sundays and lasts until after midnight. You can drive through several states in a single afternoon. 50 zillion colleges hereabouts really shifts the balance between public and private higher education (not sure what it means, but it must mean somethin'). [I've been invited to do more things at Penn in 18 months that I was at UC Berkeley in the last 18 years.] NO good bookstores. I realize how spoiled I was to live one block from Small Press Distribution (sob). I had the idea that you could look at and browse and touch a book of poems before you bought it. No real reading series here at all. Too close to NYC in one sense. There's a big gap, so far as I can tell, between writers still in college (Josh Schuster, who's on the list, has been the major mover hereabouts; hopefully Louis Cabris and Gregg Biglieri [from New College to Temple] will step things up some) and the older "mid-career" types who live in Philadelphia for reasons other than that's the big city where they moved to become poets. (i.e., people don't move to Philly for that reason, they move to NYC or SF) Liquor stores as a function of the state. Automobile registration as a mom & pop shop (closest thing down here to NYC's bodegas). The mafia as local spectator sport (we're a two-team town; NYC is a 5 team town -- they take free agency VERY seriously). The Mummers ain't the Cockettes. Children out here are taught to call people "Mr" & "Mrs" and their parents will get mad at you if you suggest that they use your first name. Flag day is taken seriously (Betsy Ross was a local and is treated as same). Ed Rendell IS Dianne Feinstein (they even look alike). People think that Krishna using her maiden name is one of those "kooky California" things and so they just call her Mrs Silliman anyway. Much better radio. You don't realize just how lousy San Francisco radio is until you hear the choices out here (now if only we had a Pacifica station). You get four times the house for the same amount of money. The earth don't shake. I see the kinds of supports that freeway overpasses have here and shudder to imagine what would happen when and if.... Brick as a building material. The automobile tire as the standard unit of litter. Really solid local poets, Julia Blumenreich, Gil Ott, Eli Goldblatt, a lot of the folks around 6ix (in that sense, not unlike DC or San Diego), as well as us transplants. Creeks that would be called rivers if they were in California. Mountains that are no larger than Albany Hill. No baseball scores from the west coast. The Amish and Mennonites and Quakers as an active presence in the community and region. Black buggies with big orange triangles. Old stone farm houses everywhere (beautiful to look at but they have small rooms and problematic fixtures [electricity and plumbing as "add ons"]). Email as your primary contact with other poets.... Shovelling snow or raking leaves as a "must-do" chore. What else? Ron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:00:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: West Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" the west has clearly moved west, based on what everybody around here is saying... hell, and i thought *I* was from the west---syracuse ny!... which obscures the fact that at some point---just prior to the west coast, perhaps (though of course a flick like _one-eyed jacks_ would seem to give the lie to this)---the west would seem to root itself in a particular landscape... which hollywood and tv made an industry of... driving east---from here, from chicago i mean---i still feel like i'm in the midwest till i hit that imaginary "border" between ohio and pennsylvania... strictly psychological, perhaps---but things *do* seem to get a lot more hilly... same goes for driving west---though it's even more abrupt... once i cross the nebraskan high plains, just as i enter into northeastern colorado or southeastern wyoming (where on a clear day you can see the rockies), why then i feel like i'm in the west... perhaps the continental divide spells this out for me, whereas the mississippi doesn't... so from my easterner perspective, the midwest always seems to me to extend from ohio ("the heart of it all"---as the signs say when you enter that state) through nebraska and the 'great plains'... but as i move north and south, i tend to think in terms of different sorts of regionalisms---"the south" for me, as a "yankee" (in the more general sense of this word), becomes anyplace south of pennsylvania, south of indianapolis, south of iowa ("the land where they let the children cry," as kerouac wrote), etc... and i think of the dakotas as strangely midwest/west---with montana, of course, as west... so just by my remarks i suppose you might say that i discriminate on the basis of landscape and region... joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:15:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Where is the west? Charles Alexander wrote: >>I always thought western meant at least >>west of the Mississippi, and increasingly, >>west of the great plains states. & Ron Spike Silliman wrote: <> A definition of the midwest follows & west (skip to end): *** It doesn't make sense but the Mississippi River separates Wisconsin from Iowa. At Dubuque we caught the 20 and stayed its course across the state. In Nebraska a Pierce County sheriff held up Brian's driver's license and asked him about his hair color and his eye color. The sheriff also wanted to know what was in California before he wrote out a ticket for doing 78 on southbound US-81. * In the Dunes motel in Albion I heard Brian say Garden at 7:30 am and I said what? He said he didn't say anything. I went back to sleep and dreamed of two plenary women urging me to go to Tacoma. They were speaking in flappers. When we woke up, the news was of a big quake in Joshua tree. We were watching as the aftershock hit and the LA correspondent was describing it for us. She was told to get under her desk. * The Butler cylinders got bigger in the middle of Nebraska. In the southern part of the state I started seeing equally large Chiefs. I like the big cylinders of the midwest. I think they were brought by the settlers. * Can you pull over I asked Brian because ditch weed was growing on the side of the road. It's a good way to annoy Brian to ask him to pull over for an unscheduled stop because it breaks one of his driving laws. Another one is no backtracking. In backtracking, say you are traveling southwest and you propose a route that puts you heading east for a mile, but you need that mile of east to hook up with a good southerly route. Brian would consider the proposed route bad form and would reject it on aesthetic grounds, even if that route was shorter or more interesting than any number of alternatives. Not that Brian's laws don't out of necessity or desire get broken. After begging Brian three times to pull over, he finally gave in. When we got out of the jeep I looked around and said hey, this isn't ditch weed. * Cambridge had a ballfield and we stopped to throw the rock. Some farm boys were practicing on the field with a man who was the coach. We asked to play and were allowed to with silence. The air had a diesel smell like big tuna. The infield was spongy prairie and sheened. The plate was forty feet in front of the low backstop. We shagged for them and then the coach made sure we got some cuts. He was from SF and had grown up in the Marina and gone to Galileo high with OJ. In his high school playoffs he used a 35 to hit the low and outside pitch. I couldn't tell if the farm boys resented us, but one kid started yelling at Brian that the point of bp was to keep the ball in the yard. Why the coach had moved to Cambridge I didn't ask, but Brian asked me if I asked him. * Well, I called Jim Budke and he wasn't home. Jim Budke owned the only jeep dealer in McCook. He lost a couple of mechanics and I don't know how long you'll be stuck said Marvin Lorentz. Marvin Lorentz was our designated tower from AAA. He didn't want us to take the jeep to Budke's but we told him there was a warranty to worry about. He had pulled up in a gray chevy nova with his wife and she held a small lap dog. He tried to get the jeep in gear but the stick wouldn't budge. It was bright and sunday. It was hot and it was dry. * We walked across the street and checked into the best western. Marvin phoned us and came by with his wrecker. He jacked up the jeep and we hopped on back and rode to Budke's. After letting the jeep down he drove us to a cash machine and recommended some places to grind. * After dinner I called Douglass in NYC and told him how Nick the Dick had hit the ball twice. Douglass wondered how Nick chose which ball to hit as his vertigo condition would allow him to see at least two. Then Brian got on the horn and told Douglass to watch out for Steve trying to lick the inside of his thigh. Steve was coming down from Providence and was still into sexual experimentation. * They put a baboon liver in some dude said Rodney. Rodney was our mechanic at Budke's. He showed us the thrashed clutch plate made by Borg & Beck. Rodney called it a ten and a half, fourteen, one. That means the clutch plate measured ten and a half inches in diameter, had fourteen gear teeth or splines and fit on a one-inch transmission shaft. On one side of the clutch plate were displayed the words FLYWHEEL SIDE. Someone had installed the clutch plate so that FLYWHEEL SIDE was up against the pressure plate. Not OK. We wondered if it was Southern Motors or Dirk Waltz. According to Rodney, you didn't need to take out the clutch plate to put in a new transmission, but that didn't prove a whole lot. * Two 20-year-old skinny guys worked with Rodney in the garage and they worked on motorcycles. They suggested we stay at a cheaper motel on the edge of town and they were willing to drive us. One of the guys said he'd lived in Phoenix, Seattle, and Denver. He liked Denver the best, but couldn't go back there until the statute of limitations ran out. The other guy was also in trouble with the Denver cops. * After another night in McCook, we got up and walked to the garage. When we got there Rodney was not under the jeep fiddling but one of the skinny guys was under there. We said hey, where's Rodney? The skinny guy said Rodney was arraigned this morning for molesting a four-year-old girl. The skinny guy seemed to think it was a bad rap because the girl couldn't identify the tattoos on Rodney's stomach, which were of Yosemite Sam and Bugs Bunny. Rodney's white pride tattoo had also gone unnoticed. * The skinny guy installed the new pressure plate and throw-out bearing and after getting the flywheel turned at a local machine shop had installed it. But he was having difficulty getting the new clutch plate to slide on to the transmission shaft. At a certain point he realized what the problem was. Spline mismatch. The transmission shaft had 14 splines and the new clutch plate had 11. We cursed Budke's for ordering the wrong part but after some research we found out we were wrong for cursing. For by all accounts - parts books and phone calls to Dodge and Borg & Beck - the transmission shaft ought to have 11 splines. Except ours continued to have 14. We got on the logical trail of the splines and got lost. How did Dirk Waltz of Midland find a brand new 14-spline transmission to fit the old clutch plate with 14 splines, assuming that he left the old clutch plate alone when he installed the new transmission, meaning that Southern Motors of Savannah had initially installed a 14-spline transmission and clutch that weren't to spec? What about the old transmission that was boxed up and sent back to Savannah? Brian's father had returned it to Southern Motors who had sent it back to the rebuilder, etc. To keep from glazing you, this is what we think happened. Instead of a new one Dirk Waltz of Midland installed a used 14-spline transmission into the jeep, ran into spline mismatch with the existing 11-spline clutch plate, dug up a 14-spline disc in some junkyard and then stuck it in backwards to spite us on account of I took imaginary cuts at his olds ornament. * The skinny guy got on the horn and drove around to all the parts stores trying to locate our phantom clutch plate. The only thing that turned up was a nine and eleven sixteenths inch disc that fit the other specs, 14 & 1. No one was sure that it would work and such a procedure would void any warranty. We said do it and they did. But they had trouble getting the transmission to bolt down to the chassis because the mounts were thrashed. This time me and Brian drove down to the parts store. The guys at Schamel's were nice and wore overalls. We showed them the chewed up mounts as an example. They checked the books but didn't have the part. They asked us if we were the ones who owned the funny jeep with a 14-spline transmission shaft. We smiled and said yes and asked how much it was to rent an apartment in town. After some searching they dug up a pair of mounts that fit older model Chryslers. I said I had a job to start in California in a few days. They said if I waited a few more the whole state would be under water. Then Nebraska would be the west and they could charge more for everything. * Prairie falcons became visible as we rolled into eastern colorado. They battled the crosswinds along with the jeep. The new clutch plate was an issue in our minds. We stopped in Wray for a little juice in case we burned up on the range. * We made it to Denver and talked about nuclear physics. In the morning we met Brian's mother & father at Stapleton and they were concerned about me getting to my job on time. At some point I was just going to have to fly. I said no, it's not like I could leave my wing man. * We had a lunch date in Boulder with Brian's mother's cousin Bud Shark and his wife Barbara. We debated where the west was and whether Denver was the west. Our hosts thought Denver wasn't, but Cheyenne was and Dallas was something else entirely. When we hit No Name I knew we were in the west and there was the start of the colorado river to prove it and a town called Rifle and another named Parachute. * We got socked in the face through southern utah. It was dry and windy and red. Fake thunderclouds dropped scarce water into the sunset. We pulled into Green River and stopped in front of a mexican restaurant. I locked both doors after Brian got out. Brian doesn't share my paranoia about locking car doors and was annoyed when he realized he'd left his wallet in the jeep. He unlocked the driver's side door but the handle stuck from all the dry. He had to go in the passenger's side to get his wallet. In the restaurant Brian got into one of his excited states where he says he's going to kick your ass motherfucker if you don't quit blowing smoke in his face. *** Bonus question. what does it mean that Chillicothe Ohio has enjoyed the presence of a Krispy Kreme? Bill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:31:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: math/ what you get for absolutes >Okay, it is becoming obvious that all the intellectuals on this list will >never get me to understand what 7 divided by everything is. Well, I dont >care! > >But here is another question: > >How come "there's no time like the present"? > Because you can't get the wrapping paper off. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: oh give me a home Comments: To: Judy Roitman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Or put it this way, from ARK, The Foundations, Beams 21,22,23: I dream the sheaves sleep quiver speak in furrow to the mower by the depths I wait and watch for the morning from all eyes matter as swarm clothed with vision each bud a lamp the heat stand in lightning wind out of throughout for ever for ever for ever alone out the water great lights stretched out divided into parts through the midst ever flesh rivers of willowsong against stone (Hope the line centering holds...) Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Judy Roitman To: POETICS Subject: Re: oh give me a home Date: Sunday, November 24, 1996 6:40PM >Clearly, some poets feel compelled to confront "landscape" "Feel" "compelled" "confront" -- nah. Some folks just seem to breath it in and out. Me, I'm with Maria, in exile from my true coastal home(s), but even us coastal types can get Kansas when it's Irby or McCrary talking. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:56:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: u.s. places minneapolis is a trip unto itself. we have an abundance of literary > magazines, many of which are quite good, yet few reading series for the > aesthetic tastes of poeple on this list. the LOFT is huge and kind of > siphons the energy, i think. > > great twin cities mags and presses include DISTURBED GUILLOTINE, POETIC > BRIEFS, the upcoming CROSS CULTURAL POETICS which will feature a > section on the often neglected WATTS WRITERS GROUP, the satirical > EXILE, COFFEE HOUSE, DETOUR, jonathon brannen's beautifully produced > STEPPING STONES chapbooks, and a couple people doing audio tapes who > are soon to release an audio version of McCaffery's PANOPTICON. Lots > going on; we just don't see each other very often. > > Salon, anyone? > > Jeff salon, si. here's a list reworked from spenser selby's, by one of my groovy students: plus, i've got a piece in the forthcoming xcp (crosscultural poetix) on the local literary scene... md From: Edmond Chow Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 21:35:14 -0600 (CST) To: Maria Damon (maria damon) Cc: Anna A Reckin , Julie A Cox , Georgia L Sine , chow@cs.umn.edu Subject: Re: fwd list of mags, fyi MINNESOTA MAGAZINES CROSS-CULTURAL POETICS, Mark Nowak, College of St Catherine, 601 25 Ave S., Minneapolis MN 55454 DISTURBED GUILLOTINE, Fredrik Hausmann, Box 14871, University Station, Minneapolis MN 55414 LIGHTNING & ASH, Paul Kremsreiter, 3010 Hennepin Ave S. #289, Minneapolis MN 55408 POETIC BRIEFS, Jefferson Hansen & Elizabeth Burns, 2510 Highway 100 South #333, St Louis Park MN 55416 SPOUT, 28 W Robie, St Paul MN 55107 U.S. MAGAZINES ABACUS, Peter Ganick, 181 Edgemont Ave, Elmwood CT 06110 AERIAL, Rod Smith, Box 25642, Wash D.C. 20007 ALEA, Tom Epstein, 296 Cole Ave, Providence RI 02906 AMERICAN BOOK REVIEW, Illinois St Univ. Campus Box 4241, Normal IL 61790 AMERICAN LETTERS AND COMMENTARY, 850 Park Ave Suite 5B, NY NY 10021 ANT,ANT,ANT,ANT,ANT, Box 16177, Oakland CA 94610 ANTENYM, Steve Carll, 106 Fair Oaks #3, San Francisco CA 94110 APEX OF THE M, Box 247, Buffalo NY 14213 ARRAS, 141 West Newell Ave, Rutherford NJ 07070 ARSHILE, Mark Salerno, Box 3749, L.A. CA 90078 ATELIER, Sarah Jensen, Box 580, Boston MA 02117 B CITY, Connie Deanovich, 517 North Fourth St, Dekalb IL 60115 BALLPEEN, SEMIQUASI REVIEWS, Box 55892, Fondren Station, Jackson MS 39296 BIG ALLIS, Melanie Neilson, 11 Scholes St, Brooklyn NY 11206 THE BOMB, Ben Baxter, 1671 Cowlitz Ave, St Helens OR 97051 BOMBAY GIN, Naropa Institute, 2130 Arapahoe Ave, Boulder CO 80302 BOOGLIT, David Kirschenbaum, Box 221 Oceanside NY 11572 BRASS CITY, 77 Williamson Drive, Waterbury CT 06710 BULLHEAD, Joe Napora, 2205 Moore St, Ashland KY 41101 CENTRAL PARK, Stacey Schrader, Box 1446 NY NY 10023 CHAIN, Juliana Spahr, Jena Osman, 215 Ashland Ave, Buffalo NY 14222 CLWN WR, Box 2165, Church St Station, NY NY 10008 COLUMBIA POETRY REVIEW, English Dept of Columbia College, 600 South Michigan Ave, Chicago IL 60605 COMPOUND EYE, Ange Mlinko, 52 Park St #3, Somerville MA 02143 CONJUNCTIONS, Bradford Morrow, 33 W. 9th St., NY NY 10011 CROSS-CULTURAL POETICS, Mark Nowak, College of St Catherine, 601 25 Ave S., Minneapolis MN 55454 DENVER QUARTERLY, Bin Ramke, Dept of English, U. of Denver, Denver CO 80208 DIE YOUNG, Skip Fox, English Dept, Univ. of Southwestern Louisiana, Lafayette LA 70504 DIRIGIBLE, David Todd, 216 Willow St, New Haven CT 06511 DISTURBED GUILLOTINE, Fredrik Hausmann, Box 14871, University Station, Minneapolis MN 55414 DROP FORGE, Box 7237, Reno NV 98510 ELECTRONIC POETRY REVIEW, http://www.poetry.org EXPERIODICIST, Jake Berry, Box 3112, Florence AL 35630, NinthLab@aol.com FIRST INTENSITY, Lee Chapman, Box 665, Lawrence KS 66044 FIVE FINGERS REVIEW, Box 15426, San Francisco CA 94115 FLASHPOINT, Box 6243, Washington D.C. 20015 FOUND STREET, Larry Tomoyasu, 2260 S. Ferdinand Ave., Monterey Park CA 91754 GENERATOR, John Byrum, 3203 W. 14th St, Apt 13, Cleveland OH 44109 GLOBAL MAIL, Ashley Parker Owens, Box 410837, San Francisco CA 94141 GRIST-ON-LINE, http://www.thing.net?/~grist HAMBONE, Nathaniel Mackey, 134 Hunolt St. Santa Cruz CA 95060 HAPPY GENIUS, Peter Landers, 103 Cedar Terrace, Hilton NY 14468 HEAVEN BONE, Steven Hirsch, Box 486, Chester NY 10918 HOUSE ORGAN, Kenneth Warren, 1250 Belle Avenue, Lakewood OH 44107 THE IMPLODING TIE-DIED TOUPEE, 82 Ridge Lake Dr, Columbia SC 4213 INDEFINITE SPACE, Marcia Arrieta, Box 40101, Pasadena CA 91114 JUXTA, Ken Harris & Jim Leftwich, 977 Seminole Trail, Charlottesville VA 22901, JUXTA43781@aol.com KIOSK, 306 Clemens Hall, S.U.N.Y, Buffalo NY 14260 KOJA, 7314 21st Ave Apt 6E, Brooklyn NY 11204 LIGHTNING & ASH, Paul Kremsreiter, 3010 Hennepin Ave S. #289, Minneapolis MN 55408 LILLIPUT REVIEW, Don Wentworth, 282 Main St, Pittsburgh PA 15201 LINGO, Jonathan Gams, Box 184, West Stockbridge MA 01266 THE LITTLE MAGAZINE, English Dept, SUNY at Albany, Albany NY 12222 LOGODAEDALUS, LOGO.CRIT, Paul Weidenhoff & W.B. Keckler, Box 14193, Harrisburg PA 17104 LOST AND FOUND TIMES, John M. Bennett, 137 Leland Ave, Columbus OH 43214 LOWER LIMIT SPEECH, A.L. Nielsen, 3055 30th St Apt #2, Boulder CO 80301 LYRIC&, Avery Burns, Box 640531, San Francisco CA 94164 MALCONTENT, Box 703, Naversink NJ 07752 MASS AVE., Daniel Bourchard, Box 230, Boston MA 02117 MEAT EPOCH, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, 72 Orange St Apt 5B, Brooklyn Hts NY 11201 MESECHABE, Dennis Formento, 1539 Crete St, New Orleans LA 70119 MIRAGE #4/PERIOD(ICAL), Kevin Killian & Dodie Bellamy, 1020 Minna St, San Francisco CA 94103 N D, Box 4144, Austin TX 78765 NEW AMERICAN WRITING, Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover, 369 Milino, Mill Valley CA 94941 NO ROSES REVIEW, Carolyn Coo, 1322 N. Wicker Park, Chicago IL 60622 OPEN UNION STOP, 427 SW Madison Suite 136, Corvallis OR 97333 OPEN 24 HOURS, Buck Downs, Box 50376, Washington D.C. 20091 ORPHEUS GRID, John Noto, Box 420803, San Francisco CA 94142 O!!ZONE, Harry Burrus, 1266 Fountain View Dr. Houston TX 77057 PAPER RADIO, Box 425, Bremerton WA 98337 PARADOX, Box 643, Saranac Lake NY 12983 PAVEMENT SAW, David Baratier, 7 James St, Scotia NY 12302 PHOEBE, Graham Foust, George Mason U., 4400 University Drive, Fairfax VA 22030 PHOTO-STATIC, Lloyd Dunn, Box 8832, Iowa City, IA 52240 PICA, 165 N Ashbury Ave, Bollingbrook IL 60440 POETIC BRIEFS, Jefferson Hansen & Elizabeth Burns, 2510 Highway 100 South #333, St Louis Park MN 55416 POETRY NEW YORK, Box 3184, Church St Station, New York NY 10008 PRIMARY WRITING, 2009 Belmont Rd. N.W., Apt 203, Wash D.C. 20009 PRIVATE ARTS, Box 10936, Chicago IL, 60610 PROLIFERATION, Mary Burger, Jay Schwartz, Chris Vitiello, Box 15954, Durham NC 27704 PROSODIA, New College of California, 766 Valencia San Francisco CA 94110 RE: REFERENCE PRESS, 154 Doyle Ave, Providence RI 02906 RHIZOME, Standard Schaefer, 366 S. Mentor #108, Pasadena CA 91106 RIBOT, Paul Vangelisti, Box 65798, Los Angeles CA 90065 RIF/T, Loss Glazier, Ken Sherwood, e-poetry@ubvm.cc.buffalo.edu ROOMS, Jaime Robles, 652 Woodland Ave, San Leandro CA 94577 SCORE, Crag Hill, 1015 NW Clifford St, Pullman WA 99163 SHATTERED WIG, Rupert Wondolowski, 2407 N. Maryland #1, Baltimore MD 21218 SITUATION, Mark Wallace, 10402 Ewell Ave, Kensington MD 20895 6IX, 914 Leisz's Bridge Rd, Reading PA 19119 SPLIT CITY, Box 110171, Cleveland OH 44107 SPLIT SHIFT, Roger Taus, 2461 Santa Monica Blvd #C-122, Santa Monica CA 90404 SPOUT, 28 W Robie, St Paul MN 55107 SUBTLE JOURNAL OF RAW COINAGE, G Huth, 875 Central Parkway, Schenectady NY 12309 SUGAR MULE, M.L. Weber, 2 N. 24th St, Colorado Srings CO 80904 SULFUR, Clayton Eshleman, English Dept, Eastern Michigan U., Ypsilanti MI 48197 SUPERFLUX, Hoa Nguyen, 2533-b Folsom St, San Francisco CA 94110 SYN/AES/THE/TIC, Alex Cigale, Box 91, Canal St Station, New York NY 10013 TALISMAN, Ed Foster, Box 1117, Hoboken NJ 07030 TAPROOT REVIEWS, Luigi Bob Drake, Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107 TENSETENDONED, M.B. Corbett, Box 155, Preston Park PA 18455 TEXTURE, Susan Smith Nash, 3760 Cedar Ridge Drive, Norman OK 73072 THAT, Tom Beckett, 1070 Easton Valley Rd, Easton NH 03580 THIS IS IMPORTANT, F.A. Nettelbeck, Box 336 Sprague River OR 97639 TIGHT, Ann Erickson, Box 1591, Guerneville CA 95446 TINFISH, Susan Schultz, 1422A Dominis St, Honolulu HI 96822 TO, Seth Frechie & Andrew Mossin, Box 121, Narberth PA 19072 TORQUE, Liz Fodaski, 21 East 2nd St #12, N.Y. NY 10013 TRANSMOG, Ficus Strangulensis, Route 6 Box 138, Charleston WV 25311 UBU WEB VISUAL & CONCRETE POETRY, Kenneth Goldsmith, http:///www.ubweb.com/vp UMBRELLA, Judith Hoffberg, Box 3640, Santa Monica CA 90408 THE VISION PROJECT, Thomas Taylor, Taylort@pdx.edu VOLT, Gillian Conoley, Box 657, Corte Madera CA 94967 THE WASHINGTON REVIEW, Joe Ross, Box 50132, Washington D.C. 20091 WAY, 131 N. Pearl St, Kent OH 44240 WHATEVER, Stephen T. Mounkhall, 14 E 236th St, Bronx NY 10470 WITZ, Christopher Reiner, Box 40012, Studio City CA 91614 WOODEN HEAD REVIEW, 240 Thompson Ave, East Liverpool OH 43920 W'ORCS/ALOUD ALLOWED, Ralph LaCharity, Box 27309, Cincinnati OH 45227 THE WORLD, Poetry Project at St Mark's, 10th St & 2nd Ave, NY NY 10003 XIB, Tolek, Box 262112, San Diego CA 92126 YEFIEF, Ann Racuya-Robbins, Box 8505, Santa Fe NM 87504 ZYX, Arnold Skemer, 58-09 205th St, Bayside NY 11364 CANADIAN MAGAZINES (eh, yeah!) BOO, 1895 Commercial Dr, Box 116, Vancouver, B.C. V5N 4A6 BRITISH COLUMBIA MONTHLY, Gerry Gilbert, Box 48884, Station Bent., Vancouver, B. C. V7X 1A8 CABARET VERT, Beth Learn, Box 157 Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2S7 CAPILANO REVIEW, 2055 Purcell Way, North Vancouver, B.C. V7J 3H5 COLLECTIF REPARATION DE POESIE, Jean-Claude Gagnon, 359 rue Lavigueur # 1, Quebec, Quebec G1R 1B3 CRASH, Maggie Helwig, Box 562, Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2T1 DADABABY, 382 East 4th St, North Vancouver, B.C. V7L 1L2 FILLING STATION, Box 22135 Bankers Hall, Calgary AB T2P 4J5 HOLE, Louis Cabri, 301, 1333 17th Ave N.W., Calgary AB T2M 0R2 INDEX MAGAZINE, 4068 St Laurent, Box 42082, Montreal, Quebec H2W 2T3 INDUSTRIAL SABOTAGE, J.W. Curry, 1357 Landsdowne Rd, Toronto, Ontario M6H 3Z9 OPEN LETTER, 499 Dufferin Ave, London, Ontario N6B 2A1 OVERSION, John Barlow, 1069 Bathurst St (3rd Floor) Toronto Ontario M5R 3G8 PUSH MACHINERY, Daniel Bradley, 30 Gloucester St #1005, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 1L6 RADDLE MOON, GIANTESS, Susan Clark, 2239 Stephens St, Vancouver B.C. V6K 3W5 RAMPIKE, Karl Jirgens, 95 Rivercrest Rd./ Warehouse, Toronto Ontario M6S 4H7 STAINED PAPER ARCHIVE, 1792 Byng Road, Windsor, Ontario N8W 3C8 TADS, Dept of English, Simon Fraser Univ, Burnaby B.C. V5A 1S6 TORQUE, Darren Werschler-Henry, Box 657 Station P, Toronto, Ontario M5S 2Y4 WEST COAST LINE, English Dept, Simon Fraser Univ, Burnaby B.C. V5A 1S6 MONDO HUNKAMOOGA, Stuart Ross, Box 141, Station F, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 2L4 U.K. MAGAZINES AND, Bob Cobbing, 89A Petherton Rd, London N5 2QT ANGEL EXHAUST, Andrew Duncan, 27 Sturton St, Cambridge CB1 2QG CURIOS THING, 71 Lambeth Walk, London SE11 6DX EONTA, 27 Alexandra Rd, Wimbledon, London SW19 7IJ FIRST OFFENSE, Tim Fletcher, Syringa, The Street, Stodmarsh, Canterbury, Kent CT3 4BA FRAGMENTE, Anthony Mellors, 3 Town Green Rd, Orwell, Cambridge INTIMACY, Adam McKeown, 4 Bower St, Maidstone, Kent ME16 8SD OASIS, Ian Robinson, 12 Stevenage Rd., London SW6 6ES OBJECT PERMANENCE, Peter Manson & Robert Purves, Flat 3/2 16 Ancroft St, Glasgow Scotland 7HU G20 PAGES, Robert Sheppard, Edge Hill University College, Ormskirk, Lancashire L39 4QP PARATAXIS, Drew Milne, School of English Studies, Arts Building, Univ of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton BN1 9NQ RADICAL POETICS, 58 Crowshott Ave, Stanmore, Middlesex, HA7 1HT RAMRAID EXTRAORDINAIRE, Chris Brooke, 57 Canton Court, Canton, Cardiff RWC, Lawrence Upton, 32 Downside Rd, Sutton, Surrey SM2 5HP SHEARSMAN, Tony Frazer, c/o Hong Kong & Shanghai Bank, Macau Mgt Office, Box 476, Macau STRIDE, Rupert Loydell, 11 Sylvan Rd, Exeter, Devon EX4 6EX TALUS, Dept of English, King's College, Strand, London WC2R 2LS TERRIBLE WORK, Tim Allen, 21 Overton Gardens, Mannamead, Plymouth PL3 5BX TONGUE TO BOOT, Miles Champion, 5 Abbots Court, Thackeray St, London W8 5ES VERTICAL IMAGES, 62 Langdon Park Rd, London N6 5QG WORDS WORTH, Alaric Sumner, BM Box 4515, London WC1N 3XX CONTINENTAL EUROPE, AND ELSEWHERE ACTION POETIQUE, Henri Deluy, 3 rue Pierre-Guignois, 94200 Ivry-sur-Seine, France AMAE, Apdo 47, 28921 Alcoron (Madrid) Spain ARNYEKYOTOK, Szasz Janos, Timdr u 17 fsz 3, H- Budapest III, Hungary ART POSTALE, Vittore Baroni, Via C Battista 339, 55049 Viareggio, Italy AU/ART UNIDENTIFIED, 1-1-10-301 Koshienguchi, Nishinomiya, Hyogo, 663 Japan AXLE, Tony Figallo, Pete Spence, Box 4180 Richmond East, Victoria, Australia BACK TO FRONT, John Geraets, Liberal Arts, Aichi-Gakuin Univ, 12 Iwasaki, Araike, Nisshin-shi, Aichi-ken, 470-01, Japan BANANA SPLIT, Peter Bangsvej 74, 2000 Frederiksberg, Denmark A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, Alan Loney, 33A Komaru St, Remuera, Auckland, 1005, New Zealand BRIO CELL, LINGUA BLANCA, GLOSSOLALIA, J. Lehmus, Stenbocksv. 24, 02860 Esbo, Finland, Jlehmus@cute.fi CARPETAS EL PARAISO, Jose Luis Campal, Apt N. 6, 33980 Pola de Lavinia, Asturias, Spain CELACANTO, Marcelo Casarin, Quisquisacate 125, 5008 Cordoba, Argentina COMUNICARTE, Hugo Pontes, Caixa Postal 922, 37701-970 Pocos de Caldas, Brazil D'UN MOM ENCA, EL TRAPAS & IMAT, Apdo 9142, 08080 Barcelona, Spain DAS FROLICHE WOHNZIMMER, Fritz Widhalm, Fuhrmanngasse 1A/7, 1080 Wien Austria DIMENSAO, Guido Brilharinho, Caixa Postal 140, Uberaba 38001, Brazil DOC(K)S, Phillipe Castellin, 20 Rue Bonaparte, Ajaccio, France 2000 EX-SYMPOSIUM, 8200 Veszprem, Anyos u. 1-3 Hungary FULL, Ramon Salvo, Apdo 20033, 08080 Barcelona Spain GARATUJA, C. Postal 41, Bento Goncalves/RS 95700 Brazil, GOING DOWN SWINGING, Box 64, Coburg, Victoria 3058, Australia GRAFFITI, Horacio Versi, Colonia 815, of. 105, Montevideo, Uruguay IF, Jean-Jacques Viton, 12 Place Castellane, 13006 Marseille, France IMPRESSUM, Bruno Runzheimer, Nahestr. 8, 45219 Essen, Germany INIA KELMA, Nueva, 4, 41770 Montellano Spain INTERARTE, Douglas Zunino, Odebrecht 97, 89021 Blumenau, SC, Brazil KARTA, Bartek Nowak, Spoldzielcza 3/39, 42-300 Myszkow, Poland KERAUNIA, Sergio Fumich, via P. Togliatti, 3-20070 Brembio-Mi, Italy JALOUSE PRATIQUE, 80 rue Henon, 69004 Lyon, France LEOPOLD BLOOM, Vaci M. u. 52. II. 9., Szombathely, 9700 Hungary MACULA, Apdo 34101, 08080, Barcelona Spain MAGYAR MUHELY, Minerva u 3/a, H-1118 Budapest, Hungary MANDORLA, Roberto Tejada, Apartado postal 5-366, Mexico D.F., Mexico 06500, MANI ART, THE SECRET LIFE OF MARCEL DUCHAMP, Pascal Lenoir, 11 Ruelle De Champagne, 60680 Grandfresnoy, France MINIATURE OBSCURE, Gerhild Ebel, Cornelia Ahnert, Landrain 143, 06118 Halle/Saale, Germany MITO, via G. Bruno 37, 80035 Nola, Italy NIOQUES, Jean-Marie Gleize, 4 rue de Cromer, 26400 Crest, France NON (+) ULTRA, Matthias Schamp, Grosse-Weischede-Strasse 1, 44803 Bochum, Germany OASII, Stephen Ellis, 45/6 Bar Ilan St, Ranana 43701 Israel OFFERTA SPECIALE, Carla Bertola, Corso De Nicola 20, 10128 Torino, Italy OLHO LATINO, Paulo Cheida Sans, Rua Padre Bernardo da Silva 856, 13030 Campinas, SP, Brazil OTIS RUSH, Box 21, North Adelaide, 5006 South Australia PELE MELE, Guy Bleus, Box 43, 3830 Wellen, Belgium PINTALO DE VERDE, Antonio Gomez, APDO 186, 06800 Merida, Badajoz, Spain PIPS DADA CORPORATION, Claudia Putz, Prinz-Albert Str. 31, 53115 Bonn, Germany PLURAL, Paseo de la Reforma 18.1 piso, Deleg. Cuauhtemoc, DF 06600, Mexico P.O.BOX (Merz Mail), Pere Sousa, apdo 9326, 08080 Barcelona Spain POESIE, Micel Deguy, 8 rue Ferou, 75278 Paris Cedex 06, France POESIE EUROPE, Postfach 180429, D-60085, Frankfurt/Main, Germany POEZINE, Avelino De Araujo, Rua Serido 486, apt 1106, CEP 59020 Natal RN, Brazil POSTYPOGRAPHIKA, http://www.postypographika.com PUNHO MAGAZINE, MULTIPAIS, Paulo Bruscky, CP 850 Recife-PE, 50010-000, Brazil PRAKALPANA LITERATURE, KOBISENA, P-40 Nandana Park, Calcutta 700034, West Bengal, India REVUE PRETEXTE, 11 rue Villedo, 75001 Paris, France SCARP, Ron Pretty, Univ of Wollongong, Box 1144, Wollongong, NSW 2500, Australia SHISHI, Shoji Yoshizawa, 166 Suginami-ku koenjikita, 3-31-5 Tokyo, Japan SIGN'ZINE, Industrias Mikuerpo, Apdo 36.455, 28080 Madrid, Spain 69 ANALGESIC, Cesar Figueiredo, Apdo 4134, 4002 Porto Codex, Portugal SIVULLINEN, Jouni Vaarakangas, Kaarelantie 86 B 28, 00420 Helsinki, Finland SPINNE, Dirk Frohlich, Priessnitzstrasse 19, 01099 Dresden, Germany SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand TERAZ MOWIE, Hartmut Andryczuk, Belziger Str. 29, 10823 Berlin, Germany TRANSFUSION, Alessandro Ceccotto, C.P. 116, 45011 Adria (RO) Italy VISUAL POETRY S.O.S., Alfredo Slang, via Ferro De Cavallo, 10, 31100 Treviso, Italy VOLL-ZINE, Rainer Golchert, Soderstrabe 29, 64283 Darmstadt, Germany YE, FALTBLATT, Theo Breuer, Neustrasse 2, 53925 Sistig/Eifel, Germany XUL, Jorge Perednik, Plaza 1629, (1430) Buenos Aires, Argentina ZAZIE, Box 521 Market St, Melbourne, Victoria, 8007 Australia ZOOM-ZOUM, Josee Lapeyrere, 4 rue des Carmes, 75005 Paris, France The preceding list is based on the research and judgments of Spencer Selby. The term "experimental" is not meant as a characterization of anyone's specific editorial focus or perspective. Please circulate, and mail possible additions, deletions, address changes or other comments to Spencer Selby, P.O. Box 590095, San Francisco CA 94159, U.S.A. email: selby@slip.net fax: 415-752-5139 This is list #36, dated 10/96 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:57:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: u.s. places oops, didn't mean to include all the extraneous stuff in the msg w/ edmond chow's list.--md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:00:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathleen Crown Subject: UPDATE: Rutgers Poetry Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="PART-BOUNDARY=.19611251200.ZM2011.rutgers.edu" -- --PART-BOUNDARY=.19611251200.ZM2011.rutgers.edu Encoding: 503 TEXT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello Everyone: The December 1st deadline for proposals for "Poetry and the Public Sphere" (April 24-27) is fast approaching. Here is an updated call (below). Among those newly scheduled to participate are Amiri Baraka, Tracie Morris, Willie Perdomo, Carl Hancock Rux, keith roach, Aileen Reyes, and Meena Alexander. Please get those proposals to us the first week of December; we will respond as soon as we can. Email inquiries to kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu. --Kathy Crown CALL FOR PAPERS Please post hardcopies in addition to posting and forwarding electronically to interested parties. The Department of English at Rutgers University, New Brunswick announces POETRY AND THE PUBLIC SPHERE: A CONFERENCE ON CONTEMPORARY POETRY, APRIL 24-27, 1997 Scheduled to participate: SONIA SANCHEZ, ADRIENNE RICH, ROBERT HASS, AMIRI BARAKA, MIGUEL ALGARIN, POETS FROM THE NUYORICAN POETS' CAFE: TRACIE MORRIS, WILLIE PERDOMO, CARL HANCOCK RUX, AILEEN REYES, and keith roach, MEENA ALEXANDER, CHARLES BERNSTEIN, TRICIA ROSE, CHARLES ALTIERI, MARIA DAMON, ALICIA OSTRIKER, CHERYL CLARKE, CORA KAPLAN, RACHEL HADAS, MICHAEL MCKEON, MICHAEL TAUSSIG, ELIN DIAMOND, ABENA BUSIA, SUSAN STANFORD FRIEDMAN, RACHEL BLAU DUPLESSIS, BOB PERELMAN, AMITTAI AVIRAM, ALAN GOLDING, LYNN KELLER, MICHAEL BIBBY and many others. This interdisciplinary conference is open to the public and aims to provide new understandings of poetry's participation in the public sphere. The last two decades have witnessed a resurgence of interest in public poetry--readings, festivals, performances, films, television series, and poetry slams. In examining the way poetry affects and is affected by social context, we will consider a range of contemporary poetries in their public settings, including performance-oriented, community-based, socially engaged, and formally experimental work. Questions of audience and aesthetics will be central to our discussion of poetry's active role in building, defining, questioning, and motivating social and political communities. Designed to bring a broad range of people from inside and outside the academy into conversation, the conference will feature roundtable discussions, poetry readings and performances, keynote lectures, and panel presentations by a wide range of poets, scholars, and activists. We welcome submissions from anyone with an interest in poetry. We are currently accepting: 1. Detailed two-page proposals for 15-minute papers, not limited to the topics listed here. (Feel free to suggest panel topics; however, we are not accepting group panel proposals.) 2. Detailed proposals for roundtable discussions (no more than four people), to consist of five-minute remarks and a moderated discussion. You may provide participant names and brief profiles of chair and three to four panelists, plus a two-page proposal describing the topic, approach, and intended contribution of each discussant. You may propose an entire roundtable or may outline your contribution and suggest roundtables for which it might be relevant. Here are some possible topics for discussion: poetry and social movements poetics of performance poetry politics of form poetry and public sphere theory poetry as witness poetry and community activism African American poetry poetry slams poetry and popular culture global poetry Latino/a poetry poetry and identity politics poetry and/as history ethnography of poetry Native American poetry gay/ lesbian poetry spoken-word events feminist poetry poetry and AIDS rap-meets-poetry politics of publishing Asian American poetry contemporary poetry cultures SEND PROPOSALS BY DECEMBER 1 (previous deadline has been extended) TO HARRIET DAVIDSON, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR ENGLISH AND DIRECTOR OF WOMEN'S STUDIES, P.O. Box 5054, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ 08903-5054. More information is available at our website (http://english.rutgers.edu/poetry.html); information about a pre-conference discussion forum online will also be available at that address. Email inquiries to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu). No proposals via email. Thank you. ACCEPTANCE NOTIFICATION If a paper or panel discussion is accepted for presentation at the conference, the person submitting will be notified in February or earlier. MAILING LIST If you would like to be on our mailing list, please send an email message to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu), or write Harriet Davidson at the address above. Indicate whether you have a place to put a conference poster or need only a registration form (saving us a little money). Registration forms will be sent by snail mail early next year, so please include your snail address as well as your email address. LOCATION The conference will take place on the campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ, which is an easy 50-minute train or car ride from New York City (1 1/2 hr from Philadelphia by car, 2 hr by local trains; 25-min by car from Newark Int'l Airport; 30-min by train or car from Princeton). SCHEDULE OF EVENTS (to be confirmed in early 1997) The conference will begin mid-afternoon on Thursday, April 24 with some of its most exciting and importance featured events, including panels and roundtables with important poets and scholars, as well as an evening reading by nationally known poets from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, organized by Miguel Algarin (names available soon, upon final agreement). We strongly encourage people to come for the Thursday afternoon and evening events. Friday and Saturday, April 25 & 26, will include a variety of panels, roundtables, mid-day readings, and evening readings by Adrienne Rich (and others) on Friday and Robert Hass and probably Sonia Sanchez (and others) on Saturday. The conference will conclude on Sunday, April 27, with panels and a featured roundtable and discussion summing up the conference, ending by early afternoon. REGISTRATION The conference is open to the public. However, people should be advised that we may be obliged to give priority seating at some events such as the featured evening readings to people who have registered. Registration fees have yet to be set but will probably rely on a sliding scale. Registration announcements/forms will go out in early Spring, 1997. Anyone submitting a proposal for the conference will automatically be sent a registration form (accepted proposals do not exempt one from registration fees). Anyone who does not submit a proposal can be sure to receive a registration form by writing to Harriet Davidson, Associate Professor of English and Director of Women's Studies, P.O. Box 5054, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5054, or by sending an email request for a registration form to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu). Include your snail address; forms will be sent out early next year. ACCOMMODATIONS A special rate of $59/night for conference-goers has been arranged for a limited number of rooms at the very nice, full-service Holiday Inn in nearby Somerset (a 12-min car ride from Rutgers) near Rte 287. Please call (908) 356-1700 and make sure to mention the conference name and Rutgers. We are hoping to arrange at least one reception at the Holiday Inn, as well as daily shuttles to and from the conference; for these reasons, we encourage anyone staying overnight to use the Holiday Inn if possible. The only hotel within walking distance of the conference is the Hyatt Hotel (908) 873-1234 in downtown New Brunswick; it is significantly more expensive than the Holiday Inn. The Holiday Inn deal provides nicer accommodations (and most likely at a lower cost) than the "moderately priced" options below; the "more expensive" options are sometimes double the Holiday Inn price and usually do not have much more to recommend them. Options include the Quality Inn (908-469-5050) in Somerset, 10 min away, moderately priced; the Ramada Inn (908-828-6900) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, moderately priced; the Marriot Hotel (908-560-0500) in Somerset, 12 min away, more expensive (within walking distance of the Holiday Inn); the Windham Gardens (908-980-0400) in Piscataway, 8 min away, more expensive; the Hilton (908-828-2000) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, much more expensive (JFK airport shuttle stop). ACKNOWLEDGMENTS This conference is made possible by generous support from the following organizations: Rutgers Student Centers and Student Activities, Rutgers College Programming Council, Office of the Dean of Students at Rutgers College, Office of the Dean at Douglass College, Douglass Activities Board, Douglass College Center, Rutgers Department of English, New Jersey Council for the Humanities, Writers at Rutgers, Paul Robeson Cultural Center, Center for Latino Art and Culture, Women's Studies, Latin American Studies, Institute for Research on Women, and the Office of Diverse Community Affairs. END -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from Mail Delivery Subsystem -- [ Transferred from mail from Mail Delivery Subsystem : text/plain ] : The original message was received at Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:29:04 -0500 from kcrown@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- anielsen@lsc.sjsu.edu (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 anielsen@lsc.sjsu.edu... Host unknown (Name server: lsc.sjsu.edu: host not found) ----- Original message follows ----- [ Transferred from mail from Mail Delivery Subsystem : message/rfc822 ] : Return-Path: kcrown Received: (from kcrown@localhost) by niflheim.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) id PAA01916; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:29:04 -0500 From: "Kathleen Crown" Message-Id: <9611041529.ZM1913@niflheim.rutgers.edu> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:29:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail Lite (3.2.0 5jul94) To: anielsen@lsc.sjsu.edu Subject: Conference Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Aldon Nielsen: Here is some conference information to accompany my email letter. Please spread the word! Thank you, Kathy Crown CALL FOR PAPERS Please post hardcopies in addition to posting and forwarding electronically to interested parties. The Department of English at Rutgers University, New Brunswick announces POETRY AND THE PUBLIC SPHERE: A CONFERENCE ON CONTEMPORARY POETRY, APRIL 24-27, 1997 Scheduled to participate: ADRIENNE RICH, ROBERT HASS, SONIA SANCHEZ, MIGUEL ALGARIN, POETS FROM THE NUYORICAN POETS' CAFE, CHARLES BERNSTEIN, TRICIA ROSE, CHARLES ALTIERI, MARIA DAMON, ALICIA OSTRIKER, CHERYL CLARKE, CORA KAPLAN, RACHEL HADAS, MICHAEL MCKEON, MICHAEL TAUSSIG, ELIN DIAMOND, ABENA BUSIA, SUSAN STANFORD FRIEDMAN and many others. This interdisciplinary conference is open to the public and aims to provide new understandings of poetry's participation in the public sphere. The last two decades have witnessed a resurgence of interest in public poetry--readings, festivals, performances, films, television series, and poetry slams. In examining the way poetry affects and is affected by social context, we will consider a range of contemporary poetries in their public settings, including performance-oriented, community-based, socially engaged, and formally experimental work. Questions of audience and aesthetics will be central to our discussion of poetry's active role in building, defining, questioning, and motivating social and political communities. Designed to bring a broad range of people from inside and outside the academy into conversation, the conference will feature roundtable discussions, poetry readings and performances, keynote lectures, and panel presentations by a wide range of poets, scholars, and activists. We welcome submissions from anyone with an interest in poetry. We are currently accepting: 1. Detailed two-page proposals for 15-minute papers, not limited to the topics listed here. (Feel free to suggest panel topics; however, we are not accepting group panel proposals.) 2. Detailed proposals for roundtable discussions (no more than four people), to consist of five-minute remarks and a moderated discussion. You may provide participant names and brief profiles of chair and three to four panelists, plus a two-page proposal describing the topic, approach, and intended contribution of each discussant. You may propose an entire roundtable or may outline your contribution and suggest roundtables for which it might be relevant. Here are some possible topics for discussion: poetry and social movements poetics of performance poetry politics of form poetry and public sphere theory poetry as witness poetry and community activism African American poetry poetry slams poetry and popular culture global poetry Latino/a poetry poetry and identity politics poetry and/as history ethnography of poetry Native American poetry gay/ lesbian poetry spoken-word events feminist poetry poetry and AIDS rap-meets-poetry politics of publishing Asian American poetry contemporary poetry cultures SEND PROPOSALS BY DECEMBER 1 (previous deadline has been extended) TO HARRIET DAVIDSON, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR ENGLISH AND DIRECTOR OF WOMEN'S STUDIES, P.O. Box 5054, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ 08903-5054. More information is available at our website (http://www.english.rutgers.edu); information about a pre-conference discussion forum online will also be available at that address. Email inquiries to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu); no proposals via email. Thank you. ACCEPTANCE NOTIFICATION If a paper or panel discussion is accepted for presentation at the conference, the person submitting will be notified in February or earlier. MAILING LIST If you would like to be on our mailing list, please send an email message to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu), or write Harriet Davidson at the address above. Indicate whether you have a place to put a conference poster or need only a registration form (saving us a little money). Registration forms will be sent by snail mail early next year, so please include your snail address as well as your email address. LOCATION The conference will take place on the campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ, which is an easy 50-minute train or car ride from New York City (1 1/2 hr from Philadelphia by car, 2 hr by local trains; 25-min by car from Newark Int'l Airport; 30-min by train or car from Princeton). SCHEDULE OF EVENTS (to be confirmed in early 1997) The conference will begin mid-afternoon on Thursday, April 24 with some of its most exciting and importance featured events, including panels and roundtables with important poets and scholars, as well as an evening reading by nationally known poets from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, organized by Miguel Algarin (names available soon, upon final agreement). We strongly encourage people to come for the Thursday afternoon and evening events. Friday and Saturday, April 25 & 26, will include a variety of panels, roundtables, mid-day readings, and evening readings by Adrienne Rich (and others) on Friday and Robert Hass and probably Sonia Sanchez (and others) on Saturday. The conference will conclude on Sunday, April 27, with panels and a featured roundtable and discussion summing up the conference, ending by early afternoon. REGISTRATION The conference is open to the public. However, people should be advised that we may be obliged to give priority seating at some events such as the featured evening readings to people who have registered. Registration fees have yet to be set but will probably rely on a sliding scale. Registration announcements/forms will go out in early Spring, 1997. Anyone submitting a proposal for the conference will automatically be sent a registration form (accepted proposals do not exempt one from registration fees). Anyone who does not submit a proposal can be sure to receive a registration form by writing to Harriet Davidson, Associate Professor of English and Director of Women's Studies, P.O. Box 5054, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5054, or by sending an email request for a registration form to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu). Include your snail address; forms will be sent out early next year. ACCOMMODATIONS A special rate of $59/night for conference-goers has been arranged for a limited number of rooms at the very nice, full-service Holiday Inn in nearby Somerset (a 12-min car ride from Rutgers) near Rte 287. Please call (908) 356-1700 and make sure to mention the conference name and Rutgers. We are hoping to arrange at least one reception at the Holiday Inn, as well as daily shuttles to and from the conference; for these reasons, we encourage anyone staying overnight to use the Holiday Inn if possible. The only hotel within walking distance of the conference is the Hyatt Hotel (908) 873-1234 in downtown New Brunswick; it is significantly more expensive than the Holiday Inn. The Holiday Inn deal provides nicer accommodations (and most likely at a lower cost) than the "moderately priced" options below; the "more expensive" options are sometimes double the Holiday Inn price and usually do not have much more to recommend them. Options include the Quality Inn (908-469-5050) in Somerset, 10 min away, moderately priced; the Ramada Inn (908-828-6900) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, moderately priced; the Marriot Hotel (908-560-0500) in Somerset, 12 min away, more expensive (within walking distance of the Holiday Inn); the Windham Gardens (908-980-0400) in Piscataway, 8 min away, more expensive; the Hilton (908-828-2000) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, much more expensive (JFK airport shuttle stop). ACKNOWLEDGMENTS This conference is made possible by generous support from the following organizations: Rutgers Student Centers and Student Activities, Rutgers College Programming Council, Office of the Dean of Students at Rutgers College, Office of the Dean at Douglass College, Douglass Activities Board, Douglass College Center, Rutgers Department of English, New Jersey Council for the Humanities, Writers at Rutgers, Paul Robeson Cultural Center, Center for Latino Art and Culture, Women's Studies, Latin American Studies, Institute for Research on Women, and the Office of Diverse Community Affairs. END -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --PART-BOUNDARY=.19611251200.ZM2011.rutgers.edu Encoding: 231 text X-Zm-Content-Name: F1M82.A01 Content-Description: Transferred from mail from "Kathleen Crown" : text/plain Content-Type: text/plain ; charset=us-ascii ; charset=us-ascii Dear Aldon Nielsen: Here is some conference information to accompany my email letter. Please spread the word! Thank you, Kathy Crown CALL FOR PAPERS Please post hardcopies in addition to posting and forwarding electronically to interested parties. The Department of English at Rutgers University, New Brunswick announces POETRY AND THE PUBLIC SPHERE: A CONFERENCE ON CONTEMPORARY POETRY, APRIL 24-27, 1997 Scheduled to participate: ADRIENNE RICH, ROBERT HASS, SONIA SANCHEZ, MIGUEL ALGARIN, POETS FROM THE NUYORICAN POETS' CAFE, CHARLES BERNSTEIN, TRICIA ROSE, CHARLES ALTIERI, MARIA DAMON, ALICIA OSTRIKER, CHERYL CLARKE, CORA KAPLAN, RACHEL HADAS, MICHAEL MCKEON, MICHAEL TAUSSIG, ELIN DIAMOND, ABENA BUSIA, SUSAN STANFORD FRIEDMAN and many others. This interdisciplinary conference is open to the public and aims to provide new understandings of poetry's participation in the public sphere. The last two decades have witnessed a resurgence of interest in public poetry--readings, festivals, performances, films, television series, and poetry slams. In examining the way poetry affects and is affected by social context, we will consider a range of contemporary poetries in their public settings, including performance-oriented, community-based, socially engaged, and formally experimental work. Questions of audience and aesthetics will be central to our discussion of poetry's active role in building, defining, questioning, and motivating social and political communities. Designed to bring a broad range of people from inside and outside the academy into conversation, the conference will feature roundtable discussions, poetry readings and performances, keynote lectures, and panel presentations by a wide range of poets, scholars, and activists. We welcome submissions from anyone with an interest in poetry. We are currently accepting: 1. Detailed two-page proposals for 15-minute papers, not limited to the topics listed here. (Feel free to suggest panel topics; however, we are not accepting group panel proposals.) 2. Detailed proposals for roundtable discussions (no more than four people), to consist of five-minute remarks and a moderated discussion. You may provide participant names and brief profiles of chair and three to four panelists, plus a two-page proposal describing the topic, approach, and intended contribution of each discussant. You may propose an entire roundtable or may outline your contribution and suggest roundtables for which it might be relevant. Here are some possible topics for discussion: poetry and social movements poetics of performance poetry politics of form poetry and public sphere theory poetry as witness poetry and community activism African American poetry poetry slams poetry and popular culture global poetry Latino/a poetry poetry and identity politics poetry and/as history ethnography of poetry Native American poetry gay/ lesbian poetry spoken-word events feminist poetry poetry and AIDS rap-meets-poetry politics of publishing Asian American poetry contemporary poetry cultures SEND PROPOSALS BY DECEMBER 1 (previous deadline has been extended) TO HARRIET DAVIDSON, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR ENGLISH AND DIRECTOR OF WOMEN'S STUDIES, P.O. Box 5054, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ 08903-5054. More information is available at our website (http://www.english.rutgers.edu); information about a pre-conference discussion forum online will also be available at that address. Email inquiries to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu); no proposals via email. Thank you. ACCEPTANCE NOTIFICATION If a paper or panel discussion is accepted for presentation at the conference, the person submitting will be notified in February or earlier. MAILING LIST If you would like to be on our mailing list, please send an email message to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu), or write Harriet Davidson at the address above. Indicate whether you have a place to put a conference poster or need only a registration form (saving us a little money). Registration forms will be sent by snail mail early next year, so please include your snail address as well as your email address. LOCATION The conference will take place on the campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ, which is an easy 50-minute train or car ride from New York City (1 1/2 hr from Philadelphia by car, 2 hr by local trains; 25-min by car from Newark Int'l Airport; 30-min by train or car from Princeton). SCHEDULE OF EVENTS (to be confirmed in early 1997) The conference will begin mid-afternoon on Thursday, April 24 with some of its most exciting and importance featured events, including panels and roundtables with important poets and scholars, as well as an evening reading by nationally known poets from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, organized by Miguel Algarin (names available soon, upon final agreement). We strongly encourage people to come for the Thursday afternoon and evening events. Friday and Saturday, April 25 & 26, will include a variety of panels, roundtables, mid-day readings, and evening readings by Adrienne Rich (and others) on Friday and Robert Hass and probably Sonia Sanchez (and others) on Saturday. The conference will conclude on Sunday, April 27, with panels and a featured roundtable and discussion summing up the conference, ending by early afternoon. REGISTRATION The conference is open to the public. However, people should be advised that we may be obliged to give priority seating at some events such as the featured evening readings to people who have registered. Registration fees have yet to be set but will probably rely on a sliding scale. Registration announcements/forms will go out in early Spring, 1997. Anyone submitting a proposal for the conference will automatically be sent a registration form (accepted proposals do not exempt one from registration fees). Anyone who does not submit a proposal can be sure to receive a registration form by writing to Harriet Davidson, Associate Professor of English and Director of Women's Studies, P.O. Box 5054, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5054, or by sending an email request for a registration form to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu). Include your snail address; forms will be sent out early next year. ACCOMMODATIONS A special rate of $59/night for conference-goers has been arranged for a limited number of rooms at the very nice, full-service Holiday Inn in nearby Somerset (a 12-min car ride from Rutgers) near Rte 287. Please call (908) 356-1700 and make sure to mention the conference name and Rutgers. We are hoping to arrange at least one reception at the Holiday Inn, as well as daily shuttles to and from the conference; for these reasons, we encourage anyone staying overnight to use the Holiday Inn if possible. The only hotel within walking distance of the conference is the Hyatt Hotel (908) 873-1234 in downtown New Brunswick; it is significantly more expensive than the Holiday Inn. The Holiday Inn deal provides nicer accommodations (and most likely at a lower cost) than the "moderately priced" options below; the "more expensive" options are sometimes double the Holiday Inn price and usually do not have much more to recommend them. Options include the Quality Inn (908-469-5050) in Somerset, 10 min away, moderately priced; the Ramada Inn (908-828-6900) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, moderately priced; the Marriot Hotel (908-560-0500) in Somerset, 12 min away, more expensive (within walking distance of the Holiday Inn); the Windham Gardens (908-980-0400) in Piscataway, 8 min away, more expensive; the Hilton (908-828-2000) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, much more expensive (JFK airport shuttle stop). ACKNOWLEDGMENTS This conference is made possible by generous support from the following organizations: Rutgers Student Centers and Student Activities, Rutgers College Programming Council, Office of the Dean of Students at Rutgers College, Office of the Dean at Douglass College, Douglass Activities Board, Douglass College Center, Rutgers Department of English, New Jersey Council for the Humanities, Writers at Rutgers, Paul Robeson Cultural Center, Center for Latino Art and Culture, Women's Studies, Latin American Studies, Institute for Research on Women, and the Office of Diverse Community Affairs. END -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from Mail Delivery Subsystem -- --PART-BOUNDARY=.19611251200.ZM2011.rutgers.edu Encoding: 10 text X-Zm-Content-Name: F1M82.A02 Content-Description: Transferred from mail from "Kathleen Crown" : Transferred from mail from Mail Delivery Subsystem : text/plain Content-Type: text/plain ; charset=us-ascii ; charset=us-ascii ; charset=us-ascii The original message was received at Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:29:04 -0500 from kcrown@localhost ----- The following addresses had delivery problems ----- anielsen@lsc.sjsu.edu (unrecoverable error) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- 550 anielsen@lsc.sjsu.edu... Host unknown (Name server: lsc.sjsu.edu: host not found) ----- Original message follows ----- --PART-BOUNDARY=.19611251200.ZM2011.rutgers.edu Encoding: 236 X-Zm-text X-Zm-Content-Name: F1M82.A03 Content-Description: Transferred from mail from "Kathleen Crown" : Transferred from mail from Mail Delivery Subsystem : message/rfc822 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Return-Path: kcrown Received: (from kcrown@localhost) by niflheim.rutgers.edu (8.6.12+bestmx+oldruq+newsunq/8.6.12) id PAA01916; Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:29:04 -0500 From: "Kathleen Crown" Message-Id: <9611041529.ZM1913@niflheim.rutgers.edu> Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 15:29:03 -0500 X-Mailer: Z-Mail Lite (3.2.0 5jul94) To: anielsen@lsc.sjsu.edu Subject: Conference Information Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Aldon Nielsen: Here is some conference information to accompany my email letter. Please spread the word! Thank you, Kathy Crown CALL FOR PAPERS Please post hardcopies in addition to posting and forwarding electronically to interested parties. The Department of English at Rutgers University, New Brunswick announces POETRY AND THE PUBLIC SPHERE: A CONFERENCE ON CONTEMPORARY POETRY, APRIL 24-27, 1997 Scheduled to participate: ADRIENNE RICH, ROBERT HASS, SONIA SANCHEZ, MIGUEL ALGARIN, POETS FROM THE NUYORICAN POETS' CAFE, CHARLES BERNSTEIN, TRICIA ROSE, CHARLES ALTIERI, MARIA DAMON, ALICIA OSTRIKER, CHERYL CLARKE, CORA KAPLAN, RACHEL HADAS, MICHAEL MCKEON, MICHAEL TAUSSIG, ELIN DIAMOND, ABENA BUSIA, SUSAN STANFORD FRIEDMAN and many others. This interdisciplinary conference is open to the public and aims to provide new understandings of poetry's participation in the public sphere. The last two decades have witnessed a resurgence of interest in public poetry--readings, festivals, performances, films, television series, and poetry slams. In examining the way poetry affects and is affected by social context, we will consider a range of contemporary poetries in their public settings, including performance-oriented, community-based, socially engaged, and formally experimental work. Questions of audience and aesthetics will be central to our discussion of poetry's active role in building, defining, questioning, and motivating social and political communities. Designed to bring a broad range of people from inside and outside the academy into conversation, the conference will feature roundtable discussions, poetry readings and performances, keynote lectures, and panel presentations by a wide range of poets, scholars, and activists. We welcome submissions from anyone with an interest in poetry. We are currently accepting: 1. Detailed two-page proposals for 15-minute papers, not limited to the topics listed here. (Feel free to suggest panel topics; however, we are not accepting group panel proposals.) 2. Detailed proposals for roundtable discussions (no more than four people), to consist of five-minute remarks and a moderated discussion. You may provide participant names and brief profiles of chair and three to four panelists, plus a two-page proposal describing the topic, approach, and intended contribution of each discussant. You may propose an entire roundtable or may outline your contribution and suggest roundtables for which it might be relevant. Here are some possible topics for discussion: poetry and social movements poetics of performance poetry politics of form poetry and public sphere theory poetry as witness poetry and community activism African American poetry poetry slams poetry and popular culture global poetry Latino/a poetry poetry and identity politics poetry and/as history ethnography of poetry Native American poetry gay/ lesbian poetry spoken-word events feminist poetry poetry and AIDS rap-meets-poetry politics of publishing Asian American poetry contemporary poetry cultures SEND PROPOSALS BY DECEMBER 1 (previous deadline has been extended) TO HARRIET DAVIDSON, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR ENGLISH AND DIRECTOR OF WOMEN'S STUDIES, P.O. Box 5054, RUTGERS UNIVERSITY, NEW BRUNSWICK, NJ 08903-5054. More information is available at our website (http://www.english.rutgers.edu); information about a pre-conference discussion forum online will also be available at that address. Email inquiries to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu); no proposals via email. Thank you. ACCEPTANCE NOTIFICATION If a paper or panel discussion is accepted for presentation at the conference, the person submitting will be notified in February or earlier. MAILING LIST If you would like to be on our mailing list, please send an email message to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu), or write Harriet Davidson at the address above. Indicate whether you have a place to put a conference poster or need only a registration form (saving us a little money). Registration forms will be sent by snail mail early next year, so please include your snail address as well as your email address. LOCATION The conference will take place on the campus of Rutgers University in New Brunswick, NJ, which is an easy 50-minute train or car ride from New York City (1 1/2 hr from Philadelphia by car, 2 hr by local trains; 25-min by car from Newark Int'l Airport; 30-min by train or car from Princeton). SCHEDULE OF EVENTS (to be confirmed in early 1997) The conference will begin mid-afternoon on Thursday, April 24 with some of its most exciting and importance featured events, including panels and roundtables with important poets and scholars, as well as an evening reading by nationally known poets from the Nuyorican Poets Cafe, organized by Miguel Algarin (names available soon, upon final agreement). We strongly encourage people to come for the Thursday afternoon and evening events. Friday and Saturday, April 25 & 26, will include a variety of panels, roundtables, mid-day readings, and evening readings by Adrienne Rich (and others) on Friday and Robert Hass and probably Sonia Sanchez (and others) on Saturday. The conference will conclude on Sunday, April 27, with panels and a featured roundtable and discussion summing up the conference, ending by early afternoon. REGISTRATION The conference is open to the public. However, people should be advised that we may be obliged to give priority seating at some events such as the featured evening readings to people who have registered. Registration fees have yet to be set but will probably rely on a sliding scale. Registration announcements/forms will go out in early Spring, 1997. Anyone submitting a proposal for the conference will automatically be sent a registration form (accepted proposals do not exempt one from registration fees). Anyone who does not submit a proposal can be sure to receive a registration form by writing to Harriet Davidson, Associate Professor of English and Director of Women's Studies, P.O. Box 5054, Rutgers University, New Brunswick, NJ 08903-5054, or by sending an email request for a registration form to Kathy Crown (kcrown@rci.rutgers.edu) or Nick Yasinski (yasinski@rci.rutgers.edu). Include your snail address; forms will be sent out early next year. ACCOMMODATIONS A special rate of $59/night for conference-goers has been arranged for a limited number of rooms at the very nice, full-service Holiday Inn in nearby Somerset (a 12-min car ride from Rutgers) near Rte 287. Please call (908) 356-1700 and make sure to mention the conference name and Rutgers. We are hoping to arrange at least one reception at the Holiday Inn, as well as daily shuttles to and from the conference; for these reasons, we encourage anyone staying overnight to use the Holiday Inn if possible. The only hotel within walking distance of the conference is the Hyatt Hotel (908) 873-1234 in downtown New Brunswick; it is significantly more expensive than the Holiday Inn. The Holiday Inn deal provides nicer accommodations (and most likely at a lower cost) than the "moderately priced" options below; the "more expensive" options are sometimes double the Holiday Inn price and usually do not have much more to recommend them. Options include the Quality Inn (908-469-5050) in Somerset, 10 min away, moderately priced; the Ramada Inn (908-828-6900) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, moderately priced; the Marriot Hotel (908-560-0500) in Somerset, 12 min away, more expensive (within walking distance of the Holiday Inn); the Windham Gardens (908-980-0400) in Piscataway, 8 min away, more expensive; the Hilton (908-828-2000) in East Brunswick near NJ Turnpike Exit 9, 8 min from Rutgers, much more expensive (JFK airport shuttle stop). ACKNOWLEDGMENTS This conference is made possible by generous support from the following organizations: Rutgers Student Centers and Student Activities, Rutgers College Programming Council, Office of the Dean of Students at Rutgers College, Office of the Dean at Douglass College, Douglass Activities Board, Douglass College Center, Rutgers Department of English, New Jersey Council for the Humanities, Writers at Rutgers, Paul Robeson Cultural Center, Center for Latino Art and Culture, Women's Studies, Latin American Studies, Institute for Research on Women, and the Office of Diverse Community Affairs. END -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --- End of forwarded mail from "Kathleen Crown" -- --PART-BOUNDARY=.19611251200.ZM2011.rutgers.edu-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:31:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: oh give me a home Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Basically I agree with Patrick Pritchett, however with regard to the following, >Clearly, some poets feel compelled to confront "landscape", with >all that entails - psychologically, politically, culturally, biologically, >historically, etc. - in their work; but just as clearly, some poets would >write the same kind of poetry regardless of where they lived. I can't imagine place not having some effect on a writer, however indirect or subtle that effect may be. And I think "landscape" must be considered in all its aspects, including geographical, climatological, social, cultural, intellectual, etc. -- to understand it. And some of these aspects are of course dependent on the individual effected by it, and few of them are without overlap. It all gets very sticky. charles ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 10:31:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: here here (there there) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:08 AM 11/23/96 -0700, you wrote: >I'll second Charles A on Mei-mei as a western poet. Whenever I read or hear >one of her poems I think I'm in New Mexico; whenever I drive in New Mexico I >think I'm reading one of Mei-mei's poems. which are almost entirely >abstract (so it's no mean feets) : it's something about how the planes of >words are like the planes of mountains (plains of sky?) over in NM (I never >think of Mei-mei when I drive in AZ). > >(and then there's /Tan-Tien/, which Charles published. a whole NOTHER story.) > >Tenney Mei-mei has spoken, in at least one talk I've heard, about the sense of horizon where she lives, and a rather direct correlation between that and the sense of space created in her poems, in part because of her line, but in other ways as well. Does anyone know if she's published any essays or writings which touch on this, other than the poems themselves? charles ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 09:35:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Carll Subject: Summary Canessa Park Reading 11-24-96 Comments: To: AERIALEDGE@aol.com, Lppl@aol.com, jms@acmenet.net, Maz881@aol.com, Marisa.Januzzi@m.cc.utah.edu, drothschild@penguin.com, Daniel_Bouchard@hmco.com, jarnot@pipeline.com, jdavis@panix.com, lease@HUSC.HARVARD.EDU, wmfuller@ix.netcom.com, welford@hawaii.edu, fittermn@is.nyu.edu, daviesk@is4.nyu.edu, lgoodman@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU, mwinter@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu, I.Lightman@uea.ac.uk, DGardner@MCA.com, sab5@psu.edu, eryque@acmenet.net, kunos@lanminds.com, poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu, akandab@ix.netcom.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It was a sunny Sunday in San Francisco (could be our last one of those for a while), so Avery Burns waited a full half hour after our scheduled starting time before introducing recent San Francisco arrival Pamela Lu. Pam read about 11 pages from her novel in progress, which doesn't seem to have a name yet and is also a meditation on contemporary culture. To preface, she read from a book called _Thirdspace_ a "definition" of Orange County from one of its own tourist brochures. Passages from Pamela's reading included: "'Me' was a different matter altogether." "Who were we, anyway, and what were we doing without 'the rest of us'?" "She moved like a body of possibility through the realm of the actual." "The suburb was designed to bring about the death of mystery." "We never wanted to leave our suffering for fear of losing awareness." "We lived in a realm where the world was just barely possible, and yet it was the only possibility." There was a short break to give the audience (which included the jet-setting Katie Lederer, Kevin Killian, Dorian Harding-Morick, Mary Burger, Spencer Selby, Renee Gladman, Colleen Lookingbill and Eric Selland) time to grab more cookies and tea, and then Charles Cantalupo read. Charles' performance was incantatory, involving the use of strong vocal cadences and hand gestures (though I later overheard him say he'd "toned it down", feeling that this audience was "more finely tuned"). Both this style of reading and the subject matter of Charles' poems are influenced by his study of Africa (Charles is in town from Bethlehem PA to give a talk on Kenyan writer Ngugi at the African Studies Association Conference). He read from his works _Eritrea_ and _Columba the Dove_. Some lines I caught were: "erasure so blankly off the tree of children" "mixing up the gold and wax meaning" "fucking leaves, fucking like leaves" "to say yessss like a tree" those ribs dug deep to begin this narrative" "chewing handkerchiefs, eyes crying out of their sockets--ours" "the mountains wrap themselves around their echoes" "light the lights, light the lights, light the lights" The next Canessa Park reading will be Sunday December 8 at 3 PM and will feature David Bromige reading new work and Merdith Quartermain visiting from Vancouver. Canessa Park is located at 708 Montgomery St. at Columbus in San Francisco. Admission is $5. ********************************** sjcarll@slip.net Steve Carll http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mags/antenym http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/antenym In seed- sense the sea stars you out, innermost, forever. --Paul Celan ********************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 11:28:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: u.s. places Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > jonathon brannen's beautifully produced >STEPPING STONES chapbooks Standing Stones, that is and yes, a very fine series of books charles ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:01:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New from Edge Books: On Your Knees, Citizen Now available: _On Your Knees, Citizen: a collection of "prayers" for the "public" [schools]_ edited by Rod Smith, Lee Ann Brown, & Mark Wallace. contributors: Beth Anderson, Kathleen Baldwin, Sandy Baldwin, Michael Basinski, Lee Ann Brown, John Byrum, Tina Darragh, Daniel Davidson, Kevin Davies, Tim Davis, Connie Deanovich, Danika Dinsmore, Jean Donnelly, Buck Downs, Heather Fuller, Chris Funkhouser, Forrest Gander, Belle Gironda, Michael Gizzi, Peter Gizzi, Judith Goldman, Jefferson Hansen, Nigel Hinshelwood, Mary Hilton, Stephen Ielpi, Jen Hofer, Kevin Killian, Wayne Kline, Andrew Levy, Doug Lang, Sheila E. Murphy, Susan Smith Nash, Larry Price, Joe Ross, Jerome Sala, Lisa Samuels, Leslie Scalapino, Spencer Selby, Daniel Shapiro, David Shapiro, Alexandra Smith, Rod Smith, Juliana Spahr, Chris Stroffolino, Vanessa Villareal, Anne Waldman, & Mark Wallace. This lovely collection appears just in time for the holiday season. A perfect stocking stuffer! just $6 postpaid. checks to Aerial/Edge POBox 25642 Washington, DC 20007 other fine Aerial/Edge products: _Aerial 8: Barret Watten_, $16.95 (becoming rare). _Aerial 6/7 featuring John Cage_, $15. _Aerial 5_ includes Hejinian/Harryman collaboration/interview, Darragh interviewed by Retallack, etc., $7.50. _Errata 5uite_ by Joan Retallack, $8. _Asbestos_ by Wayne Kline, $6. _Dogs_ by Phyllis Rosenzweig, $5. _Late July_ by Gretchen Johnsen, $3. _the julia set_ by Jean Donnelly, $4. _Cusps_ by Chris Stroffolino, $2.50. _World Prefix_ by Harrison Fisher, $4. All prices postpaid. Any order of more than $10 receives one of our chapbooks free! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:12:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeremy F Green Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: <199611251600.KAA06053@charlie.cns.iit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Or, on the other hand, there is Jay Gatsby's take on geography, when he tells Nick Carraway that his family comes from the midwest, which turns out to mean, for him, San Fransisco. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 14:25:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: math/ what you get for absolutes I must say that it seems the equation 7 over 0 times the moist reminder of density's phonic apparition equals 42 seems to me less than adequate. Perhaps Wittgenstein's question "Is this foot _my_ foot?" can only be answered under certain circumstances. Nietzsche's "Number as perspective form" also seems still to reside in the question of belief. Still, we do know we aren't corndogs & must trust in the availability of communion in such knowledge. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 13:07:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: heroines & such Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Poetics List: Here is a copy of an email letter I just sent to the NYTimes Magazine, which among its entries in a special issue on "Heroine Worship" yesterday, published what I thought was a really awful bit on Gertrude Stein, written by Cynthia Ozick. Perhaps silly to spend too much time on what the Times publishes, but it just made me angry. charles alexander >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 05:12:24 >To: magazine@nytimes.com >From: Charles Alexander >Subject: heroines & such > >While there was some debunking of heroines, and in general a mix of loved icons & simply celebrities to be talked about, none of the featured subjects of your special issue on "Heroine Worship" (Nov. 24, 1996) seemed quite so dismissed by your authors as was Gertrude Stein by Cynthia Ozick. Ozick writes that no one now reads Stein, despite the recent appearance of a selected Stein (A STEIN READER, ed. by Ulla E. Dydo, Northwestern University Press, 1993). She puts Stein down as a "copycat Cubist" despite ample evidence that Stein is at least as much an innovator as any other artist tagged with the Cubist label; and Ozick writes that the "silly" (although she admits it's enchanting) "A rose is a rose is a rose. ..." is "almost all that is left of Gertrude Stein." This despite an ongoing celebration of Stein among writers, artists, and feminists, a growth in scholarship on Stein, and the sense among many of today's most innovative writers, such as Leslie Scalapino, that Stein's writing "is very much at the basis of current writing" (Scalapino, interviewed by Ed Foster, in TALISMAN No. 8). > >In Stein we see writing revealed as a process, indeed *as writing,* as much as a window onto something else, although with a great deal of insight into the workings of the mind, as well as a unique and intricate accounting of details in the world about her. In her development of abundant and delightful possibilities for writing, I would imagine that Stein will continue to be a germinal writer for many, for decades to come. Whether Cynthia Ozick has some private (or public) axe to grind, or whether she is deeply stupid, I can not say. But her comments are dangerous, as they would keep other readers stupid as to the delights and relevances of Gertrude Stein today. > >Charles Alexander >101 W. Sixth St., no. 6 >Tucson, AZ 85701 >520-620-1626 (daytime phone) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 12:14:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Strang Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 22 Nov 1996 to 23 Nov 1996 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Cutbacks at San Francisco State University In a small step in the continuing restriction of access, reduc- tion of public support, and a general backing away from public responsibility for quality public education in California, the English Department at San Francisco State University (a Califor- nia State University campus) in November announced the mid-year layoff of 14 lecturers. These non-tenure line teachers have taught composition and ESL courses as part of a pool of experi- enced instructors, as well as conducted research, produced written work, given presentations, and designed curricula. They teach "service" courses essential to the development of critical literacy skills in a university with one of the most ethnically diverse campuses in the United States. Without the protection of tenure or multi-year contracts, the entire group of instructors at SFSU is subject to the whim of administrative decision. A new "auditing procedure," implemented by the CSU's administration, will, in theory, reduce the number of junior-level transfer students from California two-year colleges, thereby theoretically reducing the number of those students required to take first and second year composition courses. This is one rationale for the layoffs. It ignores the fact that literally hundreds of students, every semester, pack classrooms and line hallways, struggling to add the required composition, ESL, and basic writing courses. Many of our students take seven years or more to complete baccalaureate degrees, and access to required courses is one of the reasons. A constant tension simmers between the rights and needs of tenure line faculty and lecturers, whose rights and needs often compete. Both are represented by the same union, though they work under dramatically different circumstances. The work of composi- tion lecturers, which is highly labor intensive with each class demanding the thoughtful reading and grading of on the order of 175 essays (times 3 to 5 sections), revisions, and journals, along with extensive use of conferences and other duties, is not generally coveted, to put it mildly, by tenure line teachers, although it is work that is highly valued by their students. To some, the cost of providing such education would be better spent on "program" courses, upper division and graduate classes in literature and other "substantive" canonical endeavors. Composi- tion classes at SFSU are generally courses in critical literacy which, through often painfully achieved effort on the part of both students and teachers, strive to ensure a level of critical consciousness and literate ability demanded for full access to the complex social and political contexts the students will live, work, and create within. Lecturers at SFSU do not work at the fringes of students' intellectual development, but often provide essential experiences in cognitive development for their stu- dents. They are nonetheless seen as disposable, and with the ending of affirmative action in the state, the rise in tuition levels, the decreased numbers of courses, and more subtle restrictions of access, the good work that they have for many years accomplished becomes more and more endangered. The fourteen faculty members laid off in the current crisis will face the prospect of finding teaching posts in the middle of the academic year, part-time community college jobs or other, even more tenuous positions in other far-flung places, when they thought they had firm academic year commitments from their university. Many of them may not find them, but instead be forced to abandon the art to which they have dedicated their lives, their educations, and their utmost commitment. Working outside of education, these intelligent and talented people will undoubtedly fare well--no doubt better economically--but at great cost to the students they would have touched, often profoundly, in the future. Messages of support and concern can be sent to: Melanie Wise (melanie@sfsu.edu) Michael Martin (mmartin@sfsu.edu) CC to California Faculty Association (cfa@igc.org) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:29:05 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: u.s. places, & elsewhere MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting to discover that I live in "Continental Europe, and elsewhere" :-) > > CONTINENTAL EUROPE, AND ELSEWHERE > > A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, Alan Loney, 33A Komaru St, Remuera, > Auckland, 1005, New Zealand > SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 16:38:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Ripple Effects (announcement) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ripple Effects: Painting and Language a special issue of New Observations, edited by Susan Bee and Mira Schor #113, $6=20 available at bookstores or from New Observations 611 Broadway #701 New York, NY 10012 Table of Contents: Julia Jacquette Kay Rosen A Ladder Out by Pamela Wye Beesides by Susan Bee Describable Beauty by David Humphrey How I Never Got to Meet Abbie Hoffman by Kenneth Goldsmith Wounded Paintings/ Painted Wounds by Faith Wilding Word Works by Lucio Pozzi September 21, 1989 and Poem by Richard Tuttle Tom Knechtel INTRODUCTION This issue of New Observations: "Ripple Effects" examines the relationship of painters with language and other primarily linguistic source materials. Painting was traditionally an art form privileged for its purely visual qualities, although for much of its history it found its themes in linguistic sources such as biblical narrative, mythology, allegory, and history. In fact, painting and language exist in a field of interactive ripple effects that productively enrich rather than disrupt the surface of contemporary painting. Today many painters rely on linguistically based sources for their work, increasingly bringing images of these sources and of language into their paintings; also, some painters write about art or collaborate with writers, thereby engaging in a complex, multilayered practice, where art and language intersect. This is similar to the practices of some of the most prominent members of the New York School of painting. As former co-editors of M/E/A/N/I/N/G as well as practicing artists, we have been committed to engaging in such a dual practice ourselves: we have often invited artists to write about issues and art of concern and relevance to their work. "Ripple Effects" is in a way a ripple effect of that involvement. We have invited some of the artists who first wrote for M/E/A/N/I/N/G to participate in this issue of New Observations as well as several other artists whose art practice involves language and writing as either subject or image of their artwork or as a parallel practice, or significant source of inspiration. We have encouraged them to extend the basic premise of the discussion in any direction of particular present relevance to their work. In the past, dictates of modernism =97 "Greenbergian" modernism, at least = =97 have distanced painting from language. Even though the appearance of language through the use of collage was an important turning point in the development of modernist painting, as Brian O'Doherty observed in Inside the White Cube, "Without going into the attractive complexities of the letter and the word in modernism, they are disruptive." Certainly much avant-garde art, other than painting, has benefited from that "disruption," and for a while painting seemed to lose ground to these openly linguistic forms. However, in recent years we have seen the infusion of popular culture and multiple sources into the once sacred realm of the fine arts. The artists who are included in this issue have a variety of approaches to the subject of art and language. Some of these artists represent language directly in their work: Julia Jacquette writes of her first experience of viewing paintings which represented writing and how that influenced her subsequent work. Kay Rosen emphasizes the way typography and language structure interpretation and discusses her desire to exercise the science of linguistics in what for her is the more suitable field of visual art. Amy Sillman distinguishes the importance of language as speech and her paintings as figures of speech; Christian Schumann describes his sources, from comics to concrete poetry; Mira Schor notes her initial political goals in depicting language as a sign for female thought and her concerns for imbricating writing language and painting language. Kenneth Goldsmith tells how the purchase of a used copy of Abbie Hoffman=92s Steal This Book= inspired his subsequent artworks. Rochelle Feinstein discusses her use of words in painting and the grammar of painting. Jane Hammond explores painting itself, including the construction of painting as a language. Tom Knechtel and David Reed note the formative, constitutive importance of film, literature, and opera to their work. Faith Wilding writes of her interdisciplinary practice, where traditional painting language is but one of many languages used to communicate political and theoretical concerns. David Humphrey zeroes in on the relation of the concept of beauty to his paintings. Susan Bee writes about her relationship to writing and editing and about her collaborations with writers and how it has influenced her artwork. Lucio Pozzi discusses the distinction between art and words and the development of his Word Works. Pamela Wye narrates a parable about writing and art, while Richard Tuttle contributes a manifesto-like list of sentences and a poem. Together, we think that these artists give some idea of the breadth and depth of the contemporary artists preoccupation and possible obsession with language and how it changed and influenced their visual work. =97 Susan Bee and Mira Schor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 17:31:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss Glazier Subject: Re: New Poetics Archive Features In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961118154011.007162d0@bway.net> from "Charles Bernstein" at Nov 18, 96 10:40:11 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've noted that a great way to search the archive is to limit by author's e-mail address. This can help make a timely process somewhat less timely. A good way to find out the e-mail address for someone is to consult the online directory of poets available from the EPC home page. --- > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/poetics > > This archive is up to the minute; that is, it will have this message as fast > as you do. It also give you many sorting features but it is primarily > organized around the subject header (it sort all messages with the same > header together), another reason to be sure to check that the subject header > is accurate when you send a message to the list. The archive covers March > 1994 to present; earlier material (starting December 1993) will remain > available at the EPC of course. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:27:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: another dose of heroines In-Reply-To: <199611252007.NAA04228@pantano.theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII and didya notice that letter to the ed. remarking that one can tell from the photo of the subject on the NY Times Sunday cover what the feelings of the editors are about their cover-subject? In the same issue that has THOSE photos of THEM! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 15:24:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: cutting the heroine In-Reply-To: <199611252007.NAA04228@pantano.theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Charles -- I had much the same reaction as yours to the Stein piece -- but Stein was hardly the only icon to rteceive such treatment -- The Tina Turner and Naomi Campbell pieces were certainly odd lots -- Does kind of make you wonder what the editors thought they were up to with this issue -- Hepburn got short, though laudatory, shrift -- too ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 18:50:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: heroines & such MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Well-done Charles! Writing those letters-to-the-editor is a drag, a drop in the yawning bucket but at times necessary ? & Ozick's stupidities merited it. p.s. re West/poets: indeed essential to add to first volley (I'll hold on to Niedecker in some way as from out thar---) & indeed, from Welch to Mei-Mei via Rodney/Tarn -- it's a rich place & now I remember that i forgot to mention Simon Ortiz -- anyway, as an ind?crottable citizen of Luxembourg, I guess I have always defined the West as anything on the other side of Jersey -- & that means the island, not the "New," while as a one-time New Yorker I cannot forget the famous New Yorker's cartoon cover & its geographic forshortenings. Some years ago I translated & published Sam Shepard's _Motel Chronicles_ in the "Collection Sixpack" I was editing for Christian Bourgois in Paris. I used a photo of Shepard standing next to a car in the middle of a burg in the middle of the western plains for the cover ? & wrote an introduction based on how different the american writer relates/stands in his/her geography, the wide open spaces, etc. (contrasting it with the traditional close-up head-shot of the French writer with cigarette against bookshelf), bringing in John Ford movies etc. When the book came out, the art director had without telling me & of course without reading the intro cropped the photo so that all you could see was a medium-shot of Shepard with all the wide-open western spaces cut out. I still wonder what people who read my intro & then looked at the cover thought I was talking about. -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:46:16 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Roberts Subject: Re: u.s. places, & elsewhere Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Interesting to discover that I live in "Continental Europe, and >elsewhere" :-) > > >> >> CONTINENTAL EUROPE, AND ELSEWHERE >> >> A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, Alan Loney, 33A Komaru St, Remuera, >> Auckland, 1005, New Zealand >> SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand > > > Tom Beard. > So the French were actually testing their bombs in continental europe after all.................. Mark (glowing from the Pacific rim) Mark Roberts Student Systems Project Officer & User Representative SIS Team. Information Systems University of Sydney NSW 2006 Australia Ph. (02) 93517710 Mobile 015063970 Fax (02) 93517711 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 12:07:36 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Pam Brown Subject: cringe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Interesting to discover that I live in "Continental Europe, and elsewhere" :-) > > CONTINENTAL EUROPE, AND ELSEWHERE > > A BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE WHOLE WORLD, Alan Loney, 33A Komaru St, Remuera, > Auckland, 1005, New Zealand > SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand Said Tom Beard....and the same for the wonderful Australian magazine "Otis Rush" Is this a reverse of the cultural cringe ?? Pam Brown ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 19:07:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: heroines & such Comments: To: Charles Alexander MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bravo, Charles! ---------- From: Charles Alexander To: POETICS Subject: heroines & such Date: Monday, November 25, 1996 6:46PM Poetics List: Here is a copy of an email letter I just sent to the NYTimes Magazine, which among its entries in a special issue on "Heroine Worship" yesterday, published what I thought was a really awful bit on Gertrude Stein, written by Cynthia Ozick. Perhaps silly to spend too much time on what the Times publishes, but it just made me angry. charles alexander >Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 05:12:24 >To: magazine@nytimes.com >From: Charles Alexander >Subject: heroines & such > >While there was some debunking of heroines, and in general a mix of loved icons & simply celebrities to be talked about, none of the featured subjects of your special issue on "Heroine Worship" (Nov. 24, 1996) seemed quite so dismissed by your authors as was Gertrude Stein by Cynthia Ozick. Ozick writes that no one now reads Stein, despite the recent appearance of a selected Stein (A STEIN READER, ed. by Ulla E. Dydo, Northwestern University Press, 1993). She puts Stein down as a "copycat Cubist" despite ample evidence that Stein is at least as much an innovator as any other artist tagged with the Cubist label; and Ozick writes that the "silly" (although she admits it's enchanting) "A rose is a rose is a rose. ..." is "almost all that is left of Gertrude Stein." This despite an ongoing celebration of Stein among writers, artists, and feminists, a growth in scholarship on Stein, and the sense among many of today's most innovative writers, such as Leslie Scalapino, that Stein's writing "is very much at the basis of current writing" (Scalapino, interviewed by Ed Foster, in TALISMAN No. 8). > >In Stein we see writing revealed as a process, indeed *as writing,* as much as a window onto something else, although with a great deal of insight into the workings of the mind, as well as a unique and intricate accounting of details in the world about her. In her development of abundant and delightful possibilities for writing, I would imagine that Stein will continue to be a germinal writer for many, for decades to come. Whether Cynthia Ozick has some private (or public) axe to grind, or whether she is deeply stupid, I can not say. But her comments are dangerous, as they would keep other readers stupid as to the delights and relevances of Gertrude Stein today. > >Charles Alexander >101 W. Sixth St., no. 6 >Tucson, AZ 85701 >520-620-1626 (daytime phone) > > ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:17:04 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wystan Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: East Comments: To: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Ron and others east of here, When I got to Philadelphia I thought I was in Europe it was so east. I was genuinely shocked, I'd flown into San Francisco, listened to Jimmy Smith at Shelly's Mannhole (??) got across to Oakland somehow and trained I don't know four days and nights in the same direction I couldn't believe that was possible and ended up in Europe. I'd not been to Europe at that stage, so I couldn't be completely sure, but everything was SO old and made of permanent materials it hardly mattered. When carpenters come here from Britain they discover that we nail houses together--which is what we do--differently, using techniques developed in the midwest? And our suburban house designs are mostly California derived? So west is New Zealand part of the time. On the other hand, if you want to be the first to see the sun rise on the new millenium you'd better get in touch with me. I know just the spot, on an island not far from here. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 24 Nov 1996, George Bowering wrote: > Aha! So some USAmericans stole the name _Grain_ off our Canadian litmag > _Grain_ for their own purposes! Just goes to show. > > er... george, the Grain i was referring to. the one that got this thing going , arrives in my mailbox from regina. i don't recall anyone mentioning yet another manifestation of cultural imperialism. kevin ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 21:20:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: West Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This morning the question of west came to me, in all its simplicity. Here is the way a person from the East may know when he/she has come to the West. There is a ridge where the west commences! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:29:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: <199611260704.XAA29169@leland.Stanford.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I too found Ron's meditation a total delight! As someone who moved the other way (5 years in Philadelphia, then California), I was especially amused at Ron's surprise (and his twins' surprise evidently) at the Mr./Mrs. label. As an Eastener, I found it totally shocking when I arrived in LA in 1977 and an unknown real estate man called up and said "Hi Marjorie." And the students at USC and now Stanford call me Narjorie without ever asking. I kind of prefer the Philly address but even that's not nearly as nice as in Paris where I'm called Madame. That would be my dream: to be called Madame all the time as in "Bonjour Madame," "bon weekend Madame." Ron, you'll end up finding the greater formality kind of nice after a bit. So, au revoir Monsieur. xxxxx Marjorie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:47:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: SF State Layoffs In-Reply-To: <199611260704.XAA05420@email.sjsu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can anybody provide further info. on the SF State English Dept. budget situation? At San Jose State we've been going through this for the last six years, but this year's budget seemed a bit better, and we are enrolling increasing numbers again (though we are not yet able to hire any new staff) -- Why is SF State getting worse this year????? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1996 23:49:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: "of email" In-Reply-To: <8444DF96DC1@engnov1.auckland.ac.nz> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII looks like Pound was early on this score too -- I had completely forgotten the following lines from _Personae_ till I spotted them again this evening: There are many rooms and all of gold, Of woven walls deep patterned, of email, Of beaten work; pg. 49 "The House of Splendour" ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:38:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: West Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > But those of us who grew up in that region always >considered Duluth the last NORTHERN city. Beyond was pine trees, loons, >bears, wolves & snow. - HG >>2499 West 37th Ave., Hey, that's not so funny. A couple years ago I was in Cleveland and there was a motto there about the place being on "America's North Coast" !!! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 00:41:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: western poets: Lew Welch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Unless I missed it, nobody's mentioned Lew Welch. Ring of Bone, Collected >Poems 1950-1971, Grey Fox Press. Try Song of the Turkey Buzzard. I never >met him, but I've seen him fly over. You will have noticed that he didnt look at all like a poet; he looked like a guy from the west. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:01:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: NZ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wystan, I follow what you say about things in eastern US being made of solid stuff. That's why Duluth is the start of the east, those old old brick buildings. > When carpenters come here from Britain they >discover that we nail houses together--which is what we do--differently, >using techniques developed in the midwest? And our suburban house >designs are mostly California derived? So west is New Zealand part of >the time. But that is a little loopy. I have been to NZ several times, both islands (both big islands) and I didnt see anything that looked like North America. It all looked more like Australia or South Africa. Sounded like it too, actually. Except university buildings, eh? They are the same all over the damned world. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 01:23:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shaunanne Tangney Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII here is a poem--from quite a while ago--about spring and all, in california's great central valley. --shaunanne tangney FLOODED offering the soft spots of poetry and underthigh snapshots and inscriptions i can't stand/do masturbation because first there are no kisses the great central valley opens all legs and wet lies below me flooded fertile and dangerous is where our relationship flounders ragged asperagus this year nubs into next year breedy yielding yet another cornucopia of picked and packaged handled shipped and bought i can't stand/do masturbation because there is no chance of no danger of produce the great central valley lies there can only lie there flooded like you with me and petty dismisals and grand embraces leave us leveed high grounded and dammed (March, 1995) pretty anthropomorphic, i know--but i always have that question of the gaze of all "nature," "place" "landscape" poetry. a tough question, and one i am not really trying to answer--just thought i'd throw a poem into the mix-- best, shaunanne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: from "George Bowering" at Nov 25, 96 09:20:37 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > This morning the question of west came to me, in all its simplicity. Here > is the way a person from the East may know when he/she has come to the > West. > > There is a ridge where the west commences! > Yes, but isn't there also some requirement about gazing at the moon till you lose your senses? (Jack Clarke once said that John Weiners had become the moon.) Wagons Ho! Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 07:40:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: from "Marjorie Perloff" at Nov 25, 96 11:29:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > That would be my > dream: to be called Madame all the time as in "Bonjour Madame," "bon > weekend Madame." Ron, you'll end up finding the greater formality kind of > nice after a bit. > > xxxxx > Marjorie Those of us who were born and grew up in California have a natural preference for the title "hon", as in "whata ya want with your eggs, hon, bacon or sausage?" The Madams all lived in Nevada. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:01:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: East MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wystan wrote: > everything was SO old and made of permanent materials it hardly > mattered. George B. wrote: > Wystan, I follow what you say about things in eastern US being made of > solid stuff. Ah, but just wait until the monster east coast quake comes (and they say it will come) to find out how solid and permanent all that brick is. I realized I was a Californian (again, being seriously bicoastal) after the '89 quake, when awoken by an aftershock, thought "Oh, only a 5.0," turned over and went back to sleep. I'm sure I can't be the only one to have written a Cockettes poem? Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 08:16:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: East In-Reply-To: <329AEA34.6FDE@concentric.net> from "Rachel Loden" at Nov 26, 96 05:01:40 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I realized I was a Californian (again, being seriously bicoastal) after > the '89 quake, > > Rachel Loden Rachel, please, "bicoastal"? This is not the proper place to reveal such intimate secrets about your private life. Who do you think you are, Ashley MacIsaac ? Modestly, Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 05:37:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: East MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Blushingly modest Michael Boughn wrote: > Who do you think you are, Ashley MacIsaac ? You mean Ashley "Sex! Sex! Sex! - And now that I've got your attention I've got this car for sale" MacIsaac? Let me ask you--ever seen both of us at the same time? Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:26:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Yesterday, Maria Damon kindly mentioned Poetic Briefs as a Twin Cities mag, and gave our old address. Poetic Briefs' new address is 4055 Yosemite Ave., St. Louis Park, MN 55416. Thank you jeff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:55:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Call for help From: MX%"SHARP-L@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU" 26-NOV-1996 06:17:59.82 To: MX%"SHARP-L@IUBVM.UCS.INDIANA.EDU" CC: Subj: Editors and Advertisers Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 06:09:52 -0500 Reply-To: "SHARP-L Society for the History of Authorship, Reading & Publishing" From: Tom Pendergast Subject: Editors and Advertisers To: Multiple recipients of list SHARP-L One of the most difficult problems I have encountered in writing my dissertation on gender roles in American magazines from 1900 to 1950 is trying to reconstruct the influence that advertisers had in shaping the editorial content of magazines. I wonder if list members might steer me in the direction of existing scholarship that addresses this general issue. I am interested in two kinds of influence that advertisers may have had. The first would be direct influence, in which an advertiser promises a certain number of spots in exchange for favorable mention of his/her client's products. The second (and for me the most intriguing) would be indirect influence, in which the presence of ads with a certain agenda encourages the editor to mold editorial content to somehow correspond, or synchronize, with that agenda. Any works that attempt to document or theorize this relationship would be helpful. Also I'd be interested in further discussion with anyone interested in exploring the topic further. Thanks, Tom Pendergast American Studies Purdue University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:34:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Lentricchia and Rorty (?) In-Reply-To: <329AF28D.27E2@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A short while back there was a short thread on this list, if my memory serves, about Frank Lentricchia's "renunciation" of theory piece in the current issue of _Lingua Franca_. If memory serves, somebody mentioned that Richard Rorty had something like Lentricchia's piece in a current or recent issue of some other journal. If that is so, will some one among you, reading this, please tell me the name of that other journal. Thank you. William Slaughter _________________ wrs@unf.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 09:25:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: West >This morning the question of west came to me, in all its simplicity. Here >is the way a person from the East may know when he/she has come to the >West. > >There is a ridge where the west commences! > > > > >George Bowering. > , Nope, gullies. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:39:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alexis Larson Subject: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No politico/philosophical comment intended here, just a bit of life rammed by tongue into cheek... In typically American fashion you are constitutionally unable to fathom that Thanksgiving could be observed on some other day than the last Thursday in November. Your ways amaze and amuse me -- the right-palm-planted-over-heart patriotism the cornucopia of chemical-rich comestibles political persuasion as a pre-nuptial line of inquiry unshakable faith in good old American know-how. I come from an apologetic nation devoid of the trappings of confidence explaining political turmoil through shiver-clenched teeth petulant in two official languages good old American protectionism her role model. My Thanksgiving traditions have consisted of overeating to the point of stupefaction thanks due and paid through taxes servitude to the gods of betrayal and abandonment of art. By a twist of fate that is the stuff of tales our grandchildren will tell long after our last breath has expired today I shall give thanks for the moment and in advance for all the years to come just to be on the safe side. ~Lex _______________________________________ Alexis Larson writer--editor--hired pen ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:58:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Williams' prosody and/or linebreaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anybody know of any work that deals intelligently and clearly with William Carlos Williams' prosody and/or linebreaks? Hunkered, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 10:18:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: cutting the heroine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 PM 11/25/96 -0800, you wrote: >Charles -- I had much the same reaction as yours to the Stein piece -- >but Stein was hardly the only icon to rteceive such treatment -- The Tina >Turner and Naomi Campbell pieces were certainly odd lots -- Does kind of >make you wonder what the editors thought they were up to with this issue -- > >Hepburn got short, though laudatory, shrift -- too Yes, I agree. Particularly Tina Turner was insulted, I thought. In fact some of the treatment made me wonder if there was some underlying agenda to denigrate heroines in general. charles ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Comments: To: Steph4848 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks for the thoughtful post Stephen. Your comments about the Great Basin seem quite on the mark to me - it's history (and the West's in general) is largely a history of ransacking and despoilment (nothing new there, eh?). The so-called "New West" historians, like Patricia Nelson Limerick and Donald Worster, have written extensively about this, superseding romantic narratives of cowboys and rugged pioneers with the history of corporate mining interests, the struggle of land barons to control water rights (without which hydrology none of us wld be here in the West right now) and so forth. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Steph4848 To: POETICS Subject: Re: the poets and land and landing poets Date: Saturday, November 23, 1996 8:40PM In response to part one of "my query is twofold. are there any western american writers that i could read that use the harsh isolation as a springboard for verse.(i don't mean cowboy poetry?" What I think is difficult about this query is an assumed "harsh isolation" definition of the circumstance of "western writing." I suspect the idea of "harsh isolation" and "the west" is not about western writing in any large geographic sense. For example it doesn't apply to the Pacific Slope or the California side of at least the northern parts of the Sierra - which hisitorically has been much associated with notions of the sublime, nature's land of plenty, Eden etc. And it doesn't apply to the southwest - New Mexico, Arizona, at least the geographic parts of those states that that have strong non-Anglo Hispanic and Indian presences - Anastasi, Hopi, Navajo etc. - and all the attendant histories and myths. The "harsh isolation" gets more attached to Nevada's Great Basin - and its various "high desert" extensions into Oregon, Washington, Idaho, Colorado, Sothern California, etc. - where the "bleakness" appears to be much less impacted by "cultures" - Indian, Anglo or otherwise. Though I'm not as familiar with the plains states, from Dakotas to Texas, "The harsh isolation" there perhaps has a different character. I would agree that Ed Dorn, Ken Irby - students of Olson - have purposely "lived" through the land (its history, geological patterns and shapes, etc.) and written moving work within that scope in which the individual, and his moves, are directly shaped, by the facts of the landscape. In terms of the Great Basin, however, the myth of "harsh isolation" - its bleakness as a back drop or set to the personal experience - belies the history of the use of the space. Most every square inch of the Great Basin has been scoped and used for its mineral and underground water wealth. Much less visibly the military (for nuclear testing, bombing practice) maintains a huge presence across the terrain. (I think the military owns about 80% of Nevada).The land's isolation is belied by corporate, government and military habitation. Some of the prose writers (Terry Tempest Williams) have gone after the cancerous nuclear consequences of this impact. But I believe its the photographers (Robert Adams, Peter Goins, Mark Klett - and other members of the "re-photography project - and Richard Misrach ) who have done the investigating - some of it quite brave - and taken a close look at the facts of what has occured within these parts of the West. Among current poets, Laura Moriarty has some great stuff about some of these landscapes. Occasionally I think Kirk Robertson - the current poet laureate of Nevada - captures the character of living within "basin and range." This is a windy answer. Primarily I want to suggest that "harsh isolation" puts a personal and lyric limit on a area of the west that is much more complicated and pivotal (economically, culturally, etc.) in terms of national consequence - and its probably a good question as to why more poets -- to my knowledge - in the large have not touched on the subject, and photographers have. Yes -- re Kevin Killian -- the current show, CROSSING THE FRONTIER (Sandy Phillips, curator), an exploration of the use of the land in 19th and 20th Century photographs (from the 100th Meridian to the Pacific) is a wonderful and disturbing show at SF Museum of Modern Art- of which there is a good catalog published by Chronicle Books. Not without elegance, it is a definitely a post-sublime view and interpretation of Western landscapes. Stephen Vincent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:35:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Gale Subject: More on Borders and Moore Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This short report by Michael Moore and his recent run in with Borders has been making the rounds lately, but I haven't seen it here yet (my apologises if I overlooked it). Even though there has been some discussion already on this list about this Michael and Borders, this message seemed the most informative account I've read yet. Peace, Bob >>------- Start of forwarded message ------- >>From: Eric Stajda >>Newsgroups: alt.union.natl-writers >>Subject: About Borders Books... >>Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 11:38:09 -0500 >>Organization: University of Michigan >>Message-ID: <32948571.3D7E@umich.edu> >>Reply-To: stajda@umich.edu >> >>Banned by Borders >> -- By Michael Moore >> >>On November 9, as I write this, I was supposed to have been at the >>Borders bookstore in Fort Lauderdale, Florida, speaking and signing >>copies of my book Downsize This! Random Threats from an Unarmed >>American. It was to have been the final stop of my forty-seven-city >>tour. But on October 30 I was told that the book-signing had been >>canceled. The Fort Lauderdale Borders had received a memo from its >>corporate headquarters in Ann Arbor, Michigan, banning me from speaking >>or signing at any Borders store in the country. >> >>When I was growing up in Michigan, the original Borders was a store that >>actively championed free expression. In fact, when I was publishing the >>Michigan Voice, Borders would carry my paper when other establishments >>would not. Now, Borders is a huge nationwide chain, and its "liberal" >>views have earned it the reputation as the "Ben & Jerry's of the book >>chains." >> >>So why was I banned from Borders? My book was doing well. It has been on >>the New York Times best-seller list for a month and was the number two >>best-selling Random House book for the entire Borders chain. I've been >>banned, I found out, because I made the mistake of uttering a >>five-letter word, the dirtiest word in all of corporate America -- >>"union." >> >>Back in September, on the second day of my tour, when I arrived at the >>Borders store in downtown Philadelphia, I found nearly 100 people >>picketing the place because Borders had fired a woman named Miriam >>Fried. She had led a drive to organize workers at the store into a >>union. The effort failed, and, a few weeks later, Miriam was given the >>boot. >> >>When I found this out I told the Borders people that I have never >>crossed a picket line and would not cross this one. I asked the >>demonstrators if they wanted to take the protest inside. They thought it >>was a good idea. I had no desire to cause a ruckus, so I asked Borders >>management if it was O.K. to allow the protesters in. They said yes. So >>we all came into the store, I gave my talk, I gave Miriam the microphone >>so she could talk, everyone behaved themselves and it was a good day all >>around -- including for Borders, which ended up selling a lot of books, >>breaking the record for a noontime author at that location. (The record >>had been held by George Foreman, and I now like to tell people only Ali >>and I have beaten Foreman.) I also announced that I would donate all my >>royalties for the day to help Miriam out. >> >>Although Anne Kubek, Borders' corporate V.P. in charge of labor >>relations, had approved my bringing the protesters inside, upper >>management decided that she had made a mistake -- and they were going to >>take it out on me. On the following Tuesday I was scheduled to speak at >>the new Borders store in New York's World Trade Center. When I arrived, >>I was met by two Borders executives. They had flown in from Michigan >>just to stop me from speaking. The executives, flanked by two security >>guards, explained that I could come into the store and sign books, but I >>would not be allowed to talk to the people who had come to hear me. They >>said that the "commotion" I had caused in Philly raised "security >>concerns." I couldn't believe I was being censored in a bookstore. >> >>The Borders manager told the assembled crowd that I would not be >>speaking because "Port Authority police and fire marshals have banned >>all daytime gatherings at Borders." When I heard this, I stepped forward >>and told the people this was a lie, that I was forbidden to speak >>because of my support for the workers in Philly. Under protest, I >>signed the books of those who stayed -- beneath a big banner celebrating >>"Banned Books Week." >> >>On October 13, I spoke to a large crowd in a Des Moines auditorium. >>After the speech I went out front and started signing books. "What store >>are these from?" I innocently asked. "Oh, these are from the local >>Borders," I was told. Well, I thought, they don't mind if I make them >>some money -- as long as it's not on their premises! Then someone >>slipped me an anonymous note. It read: "We are employees of the Des >>Moines Borders. We were told that we could not work the book table >>tonight, that only management was working the table, because they said >>they wanted to 'protect us' from you." >> >>An hour later, I went out to the parking lot and saw some people >>standing there in the dark -- the employees from the Des Moines Borders! >>They said they were hiding out there because they had spotted Borders' >>regional director with another man inside. "He flew in to spy on you, or >>us, or both," they told me. "He saw us so we may not have jobs on >>Monday." (Bookstore employees afraid they might be fired for attending a >>public speech at the Herbert Hoover High School auditorium!) The >>executive had not introduced himself to me -- or his colleague, who >>employees believe is a unionbusting "consultant" hired by Borders. >> >>I wished the workers well, and the next night they held their first >>union meeting. The previous week, the Borders store in the Lincoln Park >>section of Chicago had become the first Borders in the country to vote >>in a union (United Food and Commercial Workers). Recently, workers in >>Des Moines signed enough cards to hold a union election. It is a >>victory that should inspire not only Borders workers but underpaid >>employees everywhere. That's why I am not in Fort Lauderdale as I write >>this. Borders is "protecting" its workers from me. >> >>Well, they're really going to need protection now. First, I am donating >>my royalties from the next 1,000 sales of Downsize This! to the >>organizing drive at Borders. Second, I am asking each of you to support >>the Borders workers in your city. Bring up the union when you're in the >>store and thank that kid with the nose ring and green hair for helping >>to revive the labor movement in America. >> >>Note to Borders Executives: If, after this column is published, you >>retaliate by removing my book from your shelves, or hiding it in the >>"humor" section or underreporting its sales to the New York Times list, >>I will come at you with everything I've got. You sandbagged me in >>Philly, and the only decent way for you to resolve this is to give >>Miriam Fried her job back and let the workers form their union without >>intimidation or harassment. >> >>Copyright (c) 1996, The Nation Company, L..P. All rights reserved. >>Electronic redistribution for nonprofit purposes is permitted, provided >>this notice is attached in its entirety. Unauthorized, for-profit >>redistribution is prohibited. For further information regarding >>reprinting and syndication, >>please call The Nation at (212) 242-8400, ext. 226 or send e-mail to Max >>Block. >>------- End of forwarded message ------- >> \\ London Productions: Home of Shout! Newspaper, \\ \\ the Cacophony Chorus, and the Spoken Word Universe \\ \\ 3010 Hennepin Ave S, #245, Minneapolis, MN 55408 USA \\ \\ london@spoken.com http://www.spoken.com \\ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 13:59:55 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: Lentricchia and Rorty (?) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Rorty article I mentioned is (provocatively, to some) called "The Inspirational Value of great Works of Literature" and is in Raritan XVI:i Summer '96. Rorty doesn't renounce the thoerist's calling like Lentricchia, he seeks to define a philosophical basis for the value or privilege of literature, and positions himself against what he sees as the excesses of cultural studies. Robert Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:09:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: West In-Reply-To: <199611261234.HAA26512@chass.utoronto.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Western writers that come to mind: Wendy Rose, Leslie Marmon Silko, Simon Ortiz, Joseph Bruchac. Wendy Rose has written some powerful poems about a Westerner visiting the East-- And from the East--presenting trajetories West, South and North-- Paul Metcalf. minisink appoquinimink portage at pemaquid, succabonk pagganck thence up the damriscotta macheepaconaponsuck to sheepscot waters moose scook sneech sag sip scug tug tist slank puss cuss --Apalache ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 14:52:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Cras(s)h MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Pierre & all, According to the latest New Yorker, "Crash" will open in the US next March. Apparently, the Lords of Media at Time-Warner have overruled Ted Turner. But this latest manifestation of censorship via media congllomerate-consolidation is certainly ominous. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:46:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: <199611261240.HAA26837@chass.utoronto.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what part of california? in the four years or so that i lived in fresno the only person to ever call me hon was my grandmother, and that was long distance from chicago. ~e On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Michael Boughn wrote: > > That would be my > > dream: to be called Madame all the time as in "Bonjour Madame," "bon > > weekend Madame." Ron, you'll end up finding the greater formality kind of > > nice after a bit. > > > > xxxxx > > Marjorie > > Those of us who were born and grew up in California have a natural > preference for the title "hon", as in "whata ya want with your eggs, > hon, bacon or sausage?" The Madams all lived in Nevada. > > Mike > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:22:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Lentricchia and Rorty (?) In-Reply-To: from "William Slaughter" at Nov 26, 96 09:34:14 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > A short while back there was a short thread on this list, if my memory > serves, about Frank Lentricchia's "renunciation" of theory piece in the > current issue of _Lingua Franca_. If memory serves, somebody mentioned > that Richard Rorty had something like Lentricchia's piece in a current or > recent issue of some other journal. If that is so, will some one among > you, reading this, please tell me the name of that other journal. Thank > you. > > William Slaughter > _________________ > wrs@unf.edu I wasn't involved in that thread, but I recently read a piece by Rorty in the current issue of _Raritan_ XVI:1 (Summer 1996). The essay was called "The Inspirational Value of Great Works of Literature". It may be a different piece than the one mentioned, as this was intended as an anti-Platonic, pragmatist defense of the ideas of "inspiration" and "great literature", not a renunciation of anything. Rorty writes: Inspirational value is typically _not_ produced by operations of a method, a science, a discipline, or a profession. . . If it is to have inspirational value, a work must be allowed to recontextualize much of what you had known; it cannot, at least at first, be itself recontextualized by what you already knew. Later, he discusses the "endless attempt to make the intellect sovereign over the imagination." I suppose that could be construed as a critique of certain forms of "theory", or certain practices. I actually found it pretty inspirational. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:04:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: WC/W//line/bre/aks MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jordan, A decent book to start with is Stephen Cushman's William Carlos Williams and the Meaning of Measure (Yale University Press: 1985). Not the whole story on the subject but good on line-breaks. Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 16:05:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: cutting the heroine maybe this is a sore thread, and i don't want to be accused of "censorship," so let me just say that for me, i have decided against using the word "denigrate," as it means "to insult or diminish by blackening," and has direct etymological connections to some of the words used to refer to Black people. don't jump all over me, please, i'm not being a pc police person, just sharing a personal decision w/ you all. --md In message <199611261718.KAA19816@pantano.theriver.com> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > At 03:24 PM 11/25/96 -0800, you wrote: > >Charles -- I had much the same reaction as yours to the Stein piece -- > >but Stein was hardly the only icon to rteceive such treatment -- The Tina > >Turner and Naomi Campbell pieces were certainly odd lots -- Does kind of > >make you wonder what the editors thought they were up to with this issue -- > > > >Hepburn got short, though laudatory, shrift -- too > > Yes, I agree. Particularly Tina Turner was insulted, I thought. In fact some > of the treatment made me wonder if there was some underlying agenda to > denigrate heroines in general. > > charles > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > get off my back. the future fields into which I write are > unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is > around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. > > --Beverly Dahlen > from A Reading 8 - 10 > published by Chax Press > ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 17:07:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: flooded just as we are unable to agree on the line between east and west, plains and (non) plains(?), so the lovely poem by shaunanne tangney seems to merge body and land, flood and the flooding of sex, seasonal shift and relational shift. smudged borders... e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:48:26 GMT+1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: wystan Organization: English Dept. - Univ. of Auckland Subject: Re: NZ Comments: To: bowering@SFU.CA But George, If you were a carpenter ... Wystan. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:49:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Foley Organization: unorganized Subject: Re: Williams' prosody and/or linebreaks In-Reply-To: Jordan -- There's a nice chapter called "Syntax in Rutherford" in Kenner's _The Pound Era_, where he analyses "Poem" (the cat & the jamcloset) line and even word by word and line. Mainly on the linebreaks. For prosody, dunno. Just the other day read some scurrilous remarks by John Hollander on the variable foot, lemme see: "Well, Williams probably copied that variable-foot format [the three descending indented partial lines of the late work] from Pound's earlier usage, except that what Williams says about the variable foot is sheer garbage. It doesn't make any sense."* Thank you, M. Hollander, for that clarification. May Williams return from the grave and piss on you from a great height. Kenner, otoh, has this to say: "He [WCW] struggled with the essay on Measure, could not subdue its roughness, abandoned it finally for greatly edited publication. An iambic pentameter civilization had ended; that was the principle he wanted to entrap, down among history's slow currents. In the essay, as elsewhere, he spoke of "the American idiom," a phrase whose virtu he had discovered late in life, and of "the variable foot," which seems like a rubber inch. Such terms do not deliver meaning; they are points for meditation. Take his three-ply line; take the remarkable passage in which he had first come upon it: The descent beckons as the ascent beckoned. Memory is a kind of accomplishment, a sort of renewal even an initiation, since the spaces it opens are new places inhabited by hordes heretorfore unrealized, of new kinds -- since their movements are toward new objectives (even though formerly they were abandoned). -- Did he mean, for instance, each line to take up the same time? He at once said, Yes; then he said, More or less." Thus Kenner (pp. 541f.). If you do find a good book on Williams's prosody, Jordan, do let us know. Pat *_The Poet's Other Voice: Conversations on Literary Translation_, ed. Edwin Honig, U Mass, 1985; p. 33. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 19:32:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marisa.Januzzi@M.CC.UTAH.EDU Subject: Re: heroines & such Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Charles-- Great letter-- if they print it, they will call you first. Ask if they will tell you how exactly they intend to edit the letter. I say this because my letter to the NYTBR protesting their treatment of Burke's biography of Mina Loy was edited completely against the grain. I wouldn't have thought the final text as it appeared there possible to adduce from my own, but. I wouldn't have believed the *review* as written wld appear there either. Learning to write against byte-- Marisa ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 20:44:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Ear Inn Reading Report 11/23 Comments: To: Lppl@aol.com, jdavis@panix.com, sab5@psu.edu, I.Lightman@uea.ac.uk, DGardner@mca.com, fittermn@is.nyu.edu, wmfuller@ix.netcom.com, lease@husc.harvard.edu, welford@hawaii.edu, daviesk@is4.nyu.edu, Daniel_Bouchard@hmco.com, drothschild@penguin.com, jms@acmenet.net, maj6916@u.cc.utah.edu, AERIALEDGE@aol.com, sjcarll@slip.net, jarnot@pipeline.com, jeg48@columbia.edu, mwinter@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu, lgoodman@acsu.buffalo.edu, issa@mail.voyagerco.com, eryque@acmenet.net, kunos@lanminds.com, mdshell@emory.edu, harris4@soho.ios.com, sophy@bennington.com, bmarcus@cris.com, mvh2@columbia.edu, LancerLeg@aol.com, Beth_Anderson@hmco.com Thursday night the poets gather to hear Jennifer Moxley and Lisa Jarnot read poetry at the Segue space and the poets mill the room before the reading. I'm trying to figure out a way to kiss a poet girl when Douglass comes up from behind and puts a box on my head. It's a big box and it slides off my head and falls to the floor. It's a box with a new hat inside. A new hat. It's not just like it. I put the hat on and it's black with a broad brim from Moe's on the Lower East Side. Larry Fagin welcomes me to the brotherhood. We sit for Lisa and I put the hat on the empty chair and point it so that catches the poems. Juliana wonders. Lisa announces this is an autobiography. Many people in the audience are captivated by her reading and by her use of the word bird. After the reading everyone tells her stories of their personal favorite bird. Also people want to know how "the piece" was an autobiography since it was mostly about birds. In Lisa's defense though, there was a short letter to Jennifer in the middle, also some abbreviated notes from Sea Lyrics, the deer in the headlights poem where she thinks hard for us all, the fire in buffalo, and maybe the word Lewis. Still, how could this then be said to constitute a new autobiography? People wanted to know. The light on the bricks was bright on Jennifer when she read from her new Imagination Verses and from the spoon and fork chapbook with the quote from Marx which she didn't read: ". . . there develops the division of labour, which was originally nothing but the division of labour in the sexual act. . . ." Jennifer reads her poems very well and they put a space heater near your head, like one of those crane constructions the acupuncturist uses. After her musings folks tell her how the poems work better on the page. It's so abstract they say! And there's quotes around it! The poets go to Lee Ann's for a book party celebrating Imagination Verses. Rob tells Juliana he really likes her new book and that he wants to write a review of it. It's so good it's like it's written by a machine! Jennifer talks about Poetry all night with Rob. Kim Lyons has a good time with Laurie Price. People ask what's in my box. A rabbit I say. Lee Ann takes pictures and shows people her photo albums. I like looking at her photo albums and when I do, I always ask who knows more people than Lee Ann Brown? Friday night the poets meet for dinner at Byron's Steakhouse. Douglass goes on about love desire as a social construct. The poets agree with Douglasses. Some attractions are too much for words I think and say pheronomes play a role too. O typical says Douglasss. Once we agree to throw god out the window, someone always tries to sneak biology in the back door. I tell Dug I didn't say anything about love desire as a social construct excluding god and do an anthropological study. I query the human database for information about words. The poets deem o god an appropriate repsonse and consider Drew Gardner's line in the arms of my lover the mind of god. Variants are proposed as well. The poets walk to Marlene's for discussions, hornitos, and bud in the can. Marlene lives across the street from Sophies the bar. Marlene is a medieval scholar and speaks in phrases that begin with The monks do this and The scribes do that and is always quoting some obscure passionate text. I, however, do injustice to the rhetorical charms of Marlene de Grace; for her sentences are far more fancifully applied and beautifully subordinated than mine. To wit Marlene de Grace was born in the year of the monkey. Marlene is concerned about TMI and constantly evaluates expressions as functions of this truth table. For example, Marlene announces she has just received two hot emails, but gallantly refuses to discuss them, denying multiple requests. She also denies Douglass whom she had promised to make out with once he shaved off his mustache, and his upper lip is clearly naked tonight. Tonight where he sits in the bathtub and sips on a clear bowl filled with Paul Masson brandy & complaints. Marlene's point of her musings is missives and poses a question of email approaching more tactile missives between distant lovers. Shari is against email and proves it by taking off her shirt and modeling her black bra. Shari is convincing to everyone, but Marlene still likes her hot emails. We drink to both. Marlene says she likes the love poems I sent her. She pretends to blush when I ask if they excite her. To prove she's not embarrassed, Marlene goes to the cupboard and pulls out my love poems to read them aloud. I get embarrassed and ask if my love poems are TMI. Anselm thinks not. Marlene reads one. My lover & I kiss. I put my fingers inside my lover. I put my fingers inside my lover's mouth. I think this is known as basting my lover. Shari thinks bad poem because it reminds her of baster. Also, Shari's friend calls her at 3 am when he's getting the latin word and Shari too is having its compliment. Apparently they exhort one another. Marlene reads greed. It's the last day of my lover's visit and she has gotten herself all juicy. I act greedy & wipe the pillow between her legs. Greed does not please my lover. Stroffolino presents a lengthy dialectic about the pillow mediating and it leads to Eliot. Douglasses Shakespeare says the pillow is merely objective correlative and gets out of the tub. He goes across the street to get Marci at Sophies. If he gets Marci over to Marlene's & beer, then we won't go to Sophies like we said, for everyone at Marlene's. Douglass comes back with Marci starts calling everyone a Bee-atch instead of a Bitch and is rambunctious. Also, Marci's glamour dyke friends are at Sophies and she wants us to follow like we said. All go to Sophies in the window. We take off our coats & sit. Juliana gets up to buy a round and Douglass yells at Marci. Too Smokie Too Bars and This Bar and Too Crowded and All People Assholes and fuck you for Very Much. I switch the period into a comma after Douglasses last word, and scream Bee-atch at Marci, as if to second Douglasses nomination. Changing Douglasses punctuation angers him more. My hat is knocked off. He leaves and soon Marci leaves. Juliana brings back the round after Dug's wig. All are punish ed. Saturday the poets walk to the Ear Inn over the Brooklyn Bridge. Crowded inside and some will not hear the not working speakers at. It's crowded inside with energy. Barbara Einzig is with her daughter and Hannah Wiener and other daughters and Breadloaf friends & Patricia Spears Jones and Maureen Owen and Lee Ann like a movie star & Julia Patton's coat and Janice Lowe and Johanna Drucker and young admirers who have brought books to sign. Susan Bee there is with Charles and Felix & Emma. Brenda Coultas is protesting K-mart. Juliana listens to Larry Fagin quote quote: "We want it clear, god knows, and we want it thick." I introduce Patricia Spears Jones and say Brooklyn. Patricia New York has been a long time and was fabulously thin when she came here now fabulously thick. She reads poems from Coffee House book The Weather That Kills. Her rock and roll poems the house. A lot of different kinds of musics, but rock and roll's her favorite. I collect money for the poets and staff. From the gate about 50 people attend. I tell Lydia 2 and read the protest that sparrow, Tim Davis, Brenda and others performed earlier that day: Dear K-Mart, We welcome you to the East Village. We present you with all of our love and courage--we, The East Village Militia, the only legitimate and militant arm of the People. The following are our non-negotiable demands: 1) Free jazz concerts every Monday night in the greeting card dept., with each musician to be paid $1000 per gig. (We know for a fact you can afford this). 2) Poetry readings each Wed. night in the Sports And Recreation dept. (The poets will be unpaid.) 3) For 15 min. every Tuesday, the entire contents of the store will be free. 4) Drag queens get a !0% discount at all times, with proof of gender. 5) Every 6 months a noted East Village designer will create new K-Mart uniforms. 6) Flout archaic laws! Sell heroin (cheaply) in your pharmacy! We cheerfully await a response to our non-negotiable demands. God Is A Woman, The East Village Militia I introduce Lydia as being influenced by Brooklyn and as possibly of memory. She will read from her new collection of old stories called Almost No Memory. She is also going to translate Proust. I always forget the name of that book. Lydia's little scalpel stories kill the audience. Lydia ends by reading the piece about reading Foucault on a train and not being able to get through a particular sentence while her pencil, the eraser and marks stray and intentional do battle. She prefaces the Foucault piece by talking about San Diego and the old days and how she had doubts about the efficacy of the then new Foucault piece before reading it at a reading there. I laughed loudly when she read it & she felt immensely reassured and thereafter read with great confidence. I flattered. Poets laugh more in the west I guess. This surprises me because I thought New York was the capital of funny poets. For example, after I moved to New York and met Bernadette Mayer, she said o you're the guy who laughs at readings. The poets are satisfied with the days work. I tell them to come back next week for Ross Brockley's alternative comedy and Jim Krell's east village love poems. And if you're not watching north americans play football on sunday, Anselm Berrigan and I are reading at the Fall Cafe in Brooklyn at 3:00pm, Smith St @ President. Finally I say Charles Borkhuis' Ear Inn series starts on Dec 7 with Abigail Child & Ron Silliman. Come early for lunch. Stay late for dinner. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 18:02:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would agree that "hon" is more Chicagoese than what I imagine indigenous(sp?) to CA. In 41 years in Chicago, I heard "hon" daily, weekly? Haven't heard it since I arrived in CA 3 years ago. Point Two: How about Sam Shepard's plays and journals as Western poetry? Point Three: I teach in Creative Writing at SF State, so I can't report on what's happening in English, but I know from how budget lines work that many department are being given permission to add one or two more full-time tenure-track faculty without being given new budget lines for those positions. Therefore, positions must be carved out of the existing budget, which leads to a loss of part-time faculty. In the case of creative writing, we have an asst. professor of poetry position open for next fall (deadline Dec 15). We have no new $$ for this position, so we have to somehow fund it ourselves. Maxine Chernoff On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Eryque Gleason wrote: > what part of california? in the four years or so that i lived in fresno > the only person to ever call me hon was my grandmother, and that was long > distance from chicago. > > ~e > > On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Michael Boughn wrote: > > > > That would be my > > > dream: to be called Madame all the time as in "Bonjour Madame," "bon > > > weekend Madame." Ron, you'll end up finding the greater formality kind of > > > nice after a bit. > > > > > > xxxxx > > > Marjorie > > > > Those of us who were born and grew up in California have a natural > > preference for the title "hon", as in "whata ya want with your eggs, > > hon, bacon or sausage?" The Madams all lived in Nevada. > > > > Mike > > mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 00:58:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nathaniel Dorward Subject: Recordings/general greetings Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Been lurking on this list for the last few weeks, so thought it's high time I post something. So: first, hello. And secondly: was looking for information on getting recordings of "performance-oriented"/improvised poetry, particularly Steve Benson, David Bromige, FA Templeton, Bruce Andrews. I've got Mac Low's CD _Open Secrets_ on order from Verge but that's all that's listed in their catalogue. I ask from personal interest but also because I'm trying to convince the folks on the board of a new music/performance organization I belong to that bringing this sort of stuff in is a _good idea_ (I'm trying to overcome some initial resistance....). -- OK: thanks. --N * Nate Dorward (ndorward@is2.dal.ca) website: http://is2.dal.ca/~ndorward/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:39:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Williams' prosody and/or linebreaks Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Anybody know >of any work that >deals >intelligently >and clearly >with William Carlos >Williams' prosody >and/or >linebreaks? > >Hunkered, >Jordan I wonder whether Michael B. knows this one. Years ago there was a woman at Univ. of Toronto wrote a piece that convincingly demonstrated that the line=breaks and the reading rhythm were different, and for a purpose. That's all I can remember of that. That's my scholarship for tonight. I have just been to the launch of Daphne Marlatt's new novel _Taken_, though. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:47:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: hon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is weird. At Daphne Marlatt's launch for her new book tonight I called her "Hon," having known her since 1961. Then I come home and find this "Hon" string on the screen. I have never been in Chicago, either. Once I drove by Gary, and once I stayed in a motel near O'Hara. No one called me "Hon" there. But once on a Bus out of Detroit, a woman I didnt know called me "Sugar". George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:59:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: l%a*n(g@u!a_g#e Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Canadian edition of the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E anthology was run as a number of _Open Letter_. Maybe there's a copy or two of that. Address Frank Davey, at fdavey@julian.uwo.ca George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 e-mail: bowering@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 21:17:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: "denigration" In-Reply-To: <329b69ac4ef9708@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII puzzling language, this English -- "denigrate" means to blacken, but "de-nigrate" means to unblacken, which is what Tina Turner was accused of (though the author of the piece seemed a bit vague on what she was up to in her first, longer-wigged period) -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 23:25:54 -0800 Reply-To: Brian Carpenter Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: Williams' prosody and/or linebreaks In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've recently been doing some work on _Paterson_ and have found Brian Bremen's _WCW and the Diagnostics of Culture_ exquisitely insightful. On prosody see especially his opening chapter, but there is fairly consistent coverage of it throughout, so you'll find finger-through to be worth your while. Patrick Foley noted some Kenner work. This reminded me of casual note which Mike Weaver slipped into his Williams bio: "Hugh Kenner, who editied Williams' final essay on 'Measure,' has suggested that Williams' use of the three-part line of the late poems stemmed from his inability to read after the brain damage of his strokes" His eyes could follow a line but not jump back and locate accurately the beginning of the next line...I'm convinced that the 3-ply typography of his late verse was originally a set of helps (with the tab stops) for just such line-finding in rereading." (Weaver, _WCW and the American Background_, 85-6) Thought that was pretty wild when I first read it. Still not quite sure what to make of it. Anyhow, there ya go. ==bc ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: .... > Point Two: How about Sam Shepard's plays and journals as Western poetry? ... yes indeed -- that's why I brought him up in my last post to the list -- & thus the European fascination with his work & a movie like PARIS, TEXAS which tried to address those western scenes & scapes. Hmm, come to think of it, one could argue that the art form of & for the West(ern) is film more than poetry?? -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 05:56:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Recordings/general greetings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nathaniel Dorward wrote: > > Been lurking on this list for the last few weeks, so thought it's high > time I post something. So: first, hello. And secondly: was looking for > information on getting recordings of "performance-oriented"/improvised > poetry > Nate -- meet Nate, i.e. get Nate Mackey's cd "Strick / Song of the Andoumboulou 16-25" (Nathaniel Mackey with Royal Hartigan and Hafez Modirzadeh), on _Spoken Engine_. (They also have a good cd by -- hm, can't get out of the Nates this morn -- Nathaniel Tarn called "I think this may be Eden." Spoken Engine is trying to do a much needed job & should be supported. Their address is: PO Box 771739, Memphis, TN 38177-1739. For a non-Nate, try cris cheek's "skin upon skin" from Sound & Language, which is cris with help, I think. as cc is on the list he may jump in & give you more details. pierre -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 03:59:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: for Madam Perloff Madam Perloff, There is a scurrilous piece in the Sunday Philadelphia Inquirer by Carlin Romano -- the books editor there -- that purports to be a review of Wittgenstein's Ladder. If I understand Romano's reasoning rightly, you fail to understand that there were two Wittgensteins -- the "good" Wittgenstein (very tidy, the world in 7 sentences, passing over what cannot be spoken) and his evil twin (untidy, wishing he could speak to the lions) and, worse yet, make this confusion in the defense of a "mediocrity" such G. Stein. I'll send you a copy. Since Romano's a significant step up from Pat Holt of the SF Comical (tho he's given to the outrageous gesture, as when he began a review of a Catherine Mackinnon book in The Nation with a "thought experiment" about what it would be like to rape her), this comes as a let down. Newspaper book reviewers are their own breed. Or in-breed. Rather like one of those X-File experiments gone bad. When Holt took over the Comical job from William Hogan, she ran a piece announcing that her intentions were to focus on serious writing and regional (N. California) literature. The very next day, the Chron's book review was of The British Book of Cats. It's been downhill from there. Hogan apparently gave a positive review to the first edition of Olson's Call Me Ishmael and traded on that with the local poets for years as a sign that he was "with it." When Dianne Feinstein declared Robert Duncan Day on his 60th birthday, Hogan, who was on the city's arts commission and rather into his dotage, read the official announcement which listed Robert's books. Hogan thought the list was a poem and gave it a rather dramatic reading before someone (Ruth Asawa?) corrected him. What we cannot speak about, we must pass over in irony, Just call me, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:19:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Boughn Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: from "Eryque Gleason" at Nov 26, 96 04:46:02 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > what part of california? in the four years or so that i lived in fresno > the only person to ever call me hon was my grandmother, and that was long > distance from chicago. > > ~e Every greasy spoon from Barstow to Banning. Mike mboughn@chass.utoronto.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 08:56:31 CST Reply-To: tmandel@screenporch.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tmandel@CAIS.CAIS.COM Subject: Whom called by who Hon, when, eh? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII You want to be called "hon," you need go no further west than Balto. If being so addressed kept one w/in bounds, never would you get beyond Pikesville agin (I say "agin" -- I'm a *Western* Jew you know, saddlephardic). More on Baltimore language might be supplied by Ron's wife (his hon) Krishna Evans. Btw, I missed Ron's original meditation (I don't read this list every day to say the least, just *sigh* when I see the digest's extent) -- can anyone email me with date info for it? Thanks pohdner. Tom ************************************************* Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349 ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 06:31:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: pynchon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm almost ashamed to say it, but I was reading TIME (eep!) not long ago and saw a short blurb in the purported arts-section mentioning that a new Thomas Pynchon book is coming out soon. Anyone know about this? Idley-- Brian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 07:05:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: <329C1C11.150C@cnsunix.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In Sam Shepard's new book of vignettes, "Cruising Paradise," he is being interviewed by a Swedish journalist who says the landscape is the star of American westerns and that Europeans view them for that reason alone. Maxine Chernoff On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Pierre Joris wrote: > MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > > .... > > Point Two: How about Sam Shepard's plays and journals as Western poetry? > ... > > yes indeed -- that's why I brought him up in my last post to the list -- > & thus the European fascination with his work & a movie like PARIS, > TEXAS which tried to address those western scenes & scapes. > > Hmm, come to think of it, one could argue that the art form of & for the > West(ern) is film more than poetry?? > -- > pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 > tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ > http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > I do not believe that there ever was a question of being > abstract or representational. It is really a matter of > ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and > stretching one's arms again. > > Mark Rothko > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:45:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: POLLET@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Subject: Re: heroines & such Marisa, that was really interesting about how the NYTBR changed you letter protesting the dismissive review of Mina Loy's work. I, for one, would like to see you post both versions here. If you don't want to post them, maybe you could send them to me privately. But I'm sure others would be curious too, and it's the sort of abuse of editorial power we all need to be aware of & fight against. thanks, Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: pynchon MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maybe called Mason and Dixon, due out in late spring next year. Saw this announcement added to a bit about someone tracking Pynchon via his credit card purchases. We await silent Tristero's empire... Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 09:49:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: main Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i'm picking up the west/shepard/filmic space thread piecemeal, but an interesting take on western space from an american-european is sobin's "road, roadsides, and the disparate frames of sequence" in _voyaging portraits_: assembled from travel notes and dedicated to wim wenders (_paris, texas_). to my mind, sobin's work is a fascinating meditation on the intersections of language and space. dan featherston ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:58:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: honey diners Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mike boughn wrote: >Every greasy spoon from Barstow to Banning. come to think of it i was called hon in a diner once. but diners is different i think. seems like even west coast diners model themselves after more eastern diners from the movies. i think i knew i was in the east when i stopped in a diner an hour after arriving in albany and the waitress said "what can i get yaz?" first time i was ever called yaz before. eryque ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 12:04:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Chax Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Can somebody backchannel me the current email of Chax boox? Thanx. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Box 90023, Duke University (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:33:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Sil Comments: To: MAXINE CHERNOFF MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maxine, That's an interesting point, though it smacks a little of interviewese glibness. Jane Tompkins, in her book _West of Everything: The Inner Life of Westerns_ devotes a lot of time to the masochistic element in Westerns. You could say that pain shares co-billing with landscape. The "star of the Western" could also be the hero's subjection to and overcoming of pain, esp. in many of Anthony Mann's great films, like "Man of the West," which don't feature landscape very prominently. Burrs in my chaps, Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: MAXINE CHERNOFF To: POETICS Subject: Re: Philadelphia/California with Ron Silliman Date: Wednesday, November 27, 1996 9:42AM In Sam Shepard's new book of vignettes, "Cruising Paradise," he is being interviewed by a Swedish journalist who says the landscape is the star of American westerns and that Europeans view them for that reason alone. Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:01:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Pynchonesque In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What I've heard is that this book is to be the long awaited "Mason-Dixon" novel -- but haven't seen advance copy yet -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:15:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Comparative Perloff Studies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There's an even nastier attack on Marjorie's work in Walter Benn Michaels's footnotes to his reponse to critics of _Our America_ in _Modernism/Modernity_ -- Where Walter sniffs that he's not about to be lectured to on poetry by someone who actually admires Charles Bernstein -- What class -- manages to make stinky remarks about two people in the same sentence -- But then, to judge from my reading of Walter's book, he has a reading problem-- perhaps he will write the next one in three-stepped lines-- (Well, I suppose I should give an example -- so nobody will think I'm just being my usual snotty self -- here's one on a subject of which I know something at least -- _Our America_ pg. 68 speaking of a well-known line in Benet's _John Brown's Body_: "Benet's essentially pluralistic nationalism commits him more truly to denying that he can represent the Negro at all than to representing him well. The discovery of the 'American thing' thus appears most certainly in the assertion of what the 'American Muse' _can't_ sing: the Negro, the alien." Now, anybody who's actually read Benet's poem may find this a bit surprising, since Benet represents any number of Negroes in his lines -- Walter can't seem to distinguish between represntation as speaking _of_ and as speaking _for_. Benet offers representations of American blacks all through the poem (that's part of the problem, how he does it!) -- what he declines is to speak in the place of black people -- Always seemed pretty clear to me, but what do I know, what do I know, of academia's austere and lonely offices??) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 13:23:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karl Richter Subject: Re: pynchon In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Brian Carpenter wrote: > I'm almost ashamed to say it, but I was reading TIME (eep!) not long ago > and saw a short blurb in the purported arts-section mentioning that a new > Thomas Pynchon book is coming out soon. Anyone know about this? > > Idley-- > > Brian > Howdy. I hadn't heard about Pynchon, but I have it on good authority that Orchises Press will be bringing out a new novel by J.D. Salinger (!) soon. No kidding. Maybe this is old news to y'all (as we say here in Lubbock, TX), but it came as an eyebrow-raiser to me.... Karl Richter (lurking heretofore) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:44:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Edwards <100344.2546@COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Sleight of Foot REALITY STREET EDITIONS presents the first in the new series 4PACKS: Sleight of Foot Miles Champion Helen Kidd Harriet Tarlo Scott Thurston A collection of lengthy selections (up to 18pp each) from four poets who had not at the time of commissioning had a substantial book of their own published, and who are working in the innovative and modernist traditions of other authors on the RSE list. RSE hopes this will be the first in a series of similar mini-anthologies showcasing younger and/or less well exposed poets. Funding from London Arts Board/Eastern Arts Board gratefully acknowledged. Autumn 1996 1-874400-10-5 L5.00 200 x 120mm paperback 80pp SOON AVAILABLE AT SMALL PRESS DISTRIBUTION FOR US READERS ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:44:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: heroines & such Marisa, I too would like to see both versions of your letter to the NYTBR (I read the one that was printed and was glad that it was in fact printed.) Burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:52:17 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Converted from PROFS to RFC822 format by PUMP V2.2X From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: WCW, Duncan Alan Golding Prof. of English, Univ. of Louisville 502-852-6801; acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Jordan--Beyond what others have mentioned on WCW's prosody, Henry Sayre's *The Visual Text of William Carlos Williams* (Illinois, c. 1983) has some good stuff on his prosody as visual. And the distinguished Mme. Perloff (bonjour, Marjorie, ma cherie) writes on his prosody in the context of contrasting it with Oppen's in her essay in the NPF *George Oppen: Man and Poet* collection. While I hate to find myself agreeing with John Hollander, I too tend to think that most of WCW's theorizing about the variable foot, etc, is garbage. Now his *practice* is a whole other matter . . . Damn! Splat! Here comes Bill's pee, invoked by Pat. (How's that? Iambic pentameter with an internal rhyme. John Hollander would love it.) While I'm displaying my ignorance, here's a question that one(s) of you will know. Where does Duncan describe himself as a derivative poet? (Outside of the NAP note where he credits Helen Adam with helping him to acknowledge his own derivativeness.) It's one of those that "everyone" "knows" about Duncan, but I need a specific citation. Thanks, and happy Thanksgiving to all. Alan One of those "things," that is, that everyone knows about Duncan. Except me, obviously. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 14:41:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: nedge promo/info/sonnet/etc. I'm away to London lucky me until Dec. 9th, dear list, so you may all give thanks now for a little less bandwidth & banter for a while... & much thanks to Loss Glazier for updated Nedge listing in EPC mag alcove - you can actually see what the covers look like, & tell a book thereby... http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mags - more info to come, I hear. Nedge is reading poems/prose/essays/reviews for #5 & encourage sending your work, dear list members! & speaking of London here's a little sonneturkey for Thanksgiving - happy holidays, gang! - Henry Gould 34 Shakespeare was Bacon on a sunshine stage, a secret agent, or unperfect actor and if this is a crown it's a fool's crown, or crown of dogwood splinters, wreath'd with your absent part & three parts rage Is it megalomania or is it shame that drove me from the Doctors into wilderness & set me spinning toward your globe of fame? & when those Aprils born of tenderness hail down sweet kelsons of the cosmic frame- up I'll be standing in my shepherd's weeds a wildness tamed by what I know comes not from me: adhesive happenstance--O Chair of Anonymity HG ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 10:43:56 CST Reply-To: tmandel@screenporch.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tmandel@CAIS.CAIS.COM Subject: brrrs under my saddlophobia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII Got the date of, and several copies of, Ron's Ruminations thanks to all. tom ************************************************* Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349 ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:08:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MANOWAK@ALEX.STKATE.EDU Subject: Xcp (Cross-Cultural Poetics) Website While some sections are still under construction, the website for Xcp is now open. The site includes the "Call for Papers" for our conference at the University of Minnesota next October (posted here several weeks ago by Maria Damon) and an outline of Xcp's plans/projects. Visit us at: freenet.buffalo.edu/~xcp ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 15:14:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Comparative Perloff Studies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yes, aldon & others -- i was really put-off by michaels's comments directed at marjorie, and his seemingly incidental slam of charles b... so put-off in fact that i've written r. von hallberg as editor of_modernism/modernity_ to say so... joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 11:53:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: pynchon -Reply Comments: To: bricarp@PAUL.SPU.EDU >>> Brian Carpenter 11/27/96 09:31am >>> I'm almost ashamed to say it, but I was reading TIME (eep!) not long ago and saw a short blurb in the purported arts-section mentioning that a new Thomas Pynchon book is coming out soon. Anyone know about this? Idley-- Brian Yes, Pynchon's novel, Mason & Dixon, due from Henry Holt in April, 200,000 first printing , the publisher says. A fictional account of the lives of British surveyors Charles Mason and Jeremiah Dixon, a story, according to Publishers Weekly, that Pynchon fanatics have said has been in the works for years. set in pre-rvolutionary war america, according to pr stuff from holt, "that will please pynchon fans." Ray Roberts, pynchon's long-time editor, also noted that the book The Letters of Wanda Tinasky, a paperback published in June, purported to be the lettters Pynchon wrote to the Anderson Valley Advertiser, was not the work of TP. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:04:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: benjamin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just on the heels of Rod et al suggesting Harvard UP is coming out with Benjamin's collected papers, I think I spied Vol. I of same at my corner bookstore this evening in just-out-of-the-box cloth -- in a hurry with groceries or I would've looked more carefully -- -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 00:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: benjamin Yes, Benjamin Harvard _Selected Writings Vol 1_ is out, $35. Includes all of "One Way Street" -- available to Poeticser for usual 10% discount & free shippin'. It will be on next Bridge St list of new titles but feel free to order now. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 21:36:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Re: heroines & such Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Now that's a damn good idea. Please post both, Marisa. Peter At 09:45 AM 11/27/96 EST, you wrote: >Marisa, that was really interesting about how the NYTBR changed you letter >protesting the dismissive review of Mina Loy's work. I, for one, would >like to see you post both versions here. If you don't want to post them, >maybe you could send them to me privately. But I'm sure others would be >curious too, and it's the sort of abuse of editorial power we all need to >be aware of & fight against. thanks, Sylvester > > + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 128 East 23rd Avenue Vancouver B.C. Canada V5V 1X2 Voice and fax: 604 876 8061 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 23:20:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Bad reviews In-Reply-To: <199611280501.VAA03131@leland.Stanford.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Ron,Aldon and others: Al Filreis had sent me that Inquirer review (which he has, unaccountably, put on line for his class) and I actually thought it was sort of wonderfully funny : this Romano person (who he or she?) complaining that I dare link the crystal clear and easy Wittgenstein to the "murky" Gertrude Stein (whom, he says, no one can read anyway!). I felt I was in good company with Gertrude. But the Chronicle, Ron, had a lovely review by Peter Baker--so you're wrong there. More serious is the Walter Benn Michaels bit and I thought lurkers here might like some background! Bob von H organized a session for ACLA last year where Charlie Altieri, Bob, and I were to "respond" to Walter. I'm afraid we were all pretty negative but Walter is unflappable and always gets the last word (not easy with Charlie and me around!). When I wrote my piece for M/M--largely revised from oral session--I must say I felt I didn't see how he could refute the argument. And when I read his final response I thought it was surprisingly mild--till I came to that footnote which made my heart sink. Not only because he insulted Charles B and me in a stupid way, but it was another example of academese. Walter purports to believe that there is no such thing as "good" or "bad" lit; one reads it more or less for cultural information. If a writer lived in the 20s, anything he or she has written is of potential interest as an "index" to the culture. But woe to the living! Charles Bernstein evidently can't be a cultural index; he's just a "bad" poet and Marjorie has no aesthetic sense because she thinks he's good. This in an essay that had zero to do with Charles or anything contemporary!! It was entirely irrelevant. When I read proof, I called Bob and told him I thought he should (and easily could!) remove that little footnote. He refused on the grounds that he thought it made for good debate (???) and that anyway since Charles has an essay in the same issue of M/M, he is so to speak getting a fair shake. You figure it out! Joe Amato caught it and wrote a good letter; I hope others will, not because of me and/or Charles but because it's discouraging to see scholarly journals, supposedly careful in their subjective judgments, suddenly allow someone to say, "I don't like being lectured on aesthetics by someone who thinks Charles Bernstein is a major poet." Period. No reference to anything. Walter is teaching at the Theory school at Dartmouth this summer; I wonder what theory allows for this sort of thing. But then, as Stein said, "Remarks are not literature." xxxx Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 09:24:17 CST Reply-To: tmandel@screenporch.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tmandel@CAIS.CAIS.COM Subject: westerns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; Charset=US-ASCII As a matter of curiosity, on the subject of the Western as poetic act, how many have seen The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? The Shootist The Searchers My Darling Clementine Tombstone Of those who've seen Tombstone, how many have seen more than one of the others (and which)? As I say, this is a matter of curiosity (well, a matter of basic culture in fact, but *I* am simply curious). Those who used to read Cahiers du cinema way back when know, btw, that it was chock full of essays on (much more than the landscape of) the American Western. Tom ************************************************* Tom Mandel * 2927 Tilden St. NW Washington DC 20008 * tmandel@1net.com vox: 202-362-1679 * fax 202-364-5349 ************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:36:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: westerns MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT And don't forget George Herriman's Krazy Kat, perhaps the greatest marriage of text and image based on the Western landscape. Also worth checking out if you can find it is an old textbook by John S. Shelton, called Geology Illustrated (San Francisco: W.H. Freemen &Co, 1966). Shelton was an aerial photographer who took all the pix for his very readable book. On the cover is an incredible shot of the Meteor Crater in Winslow, Arizona. What better peek at the catastrophic imagination of the Cold War! The photos showing fault activity and erosion are equally spectacular. And to the list of Westerns, I would add The Misfits, in which the spirit of Euripides descends to the desert floor to announce the death of the genre. Gary R ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:40:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: westerns >And don't forget George Herriman's Krazy Kat which has been reprinted in a multiple volume edition I bought mine about 5 years ago at a (shudder) Borders bookstore -- hope they are still in print. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 10:52:29 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: westerns Comments: To: POETICS list >As a matter of curiosity, on the subject of the Western as poetic act, >how many have seen > >The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? >The Shootist >The Searchers >My Darling Clementine >Tombstone I've seen all but _My Darling Clementine_. But you've left out _Once Upon A Time in the West_, in my opinion the most grandly poetic Western of all. And _The Professionals_. And, of course, _The Magnificent Seven_ (which might be more operatic, come to think of it). But, of course, once we start talking about film as "poetic act," we begin to lose the distinctiveness of poetry as poetic act. I count _The Searchers_ as a Viet Nam war movie (along with _The Professionals_, _Ulzana's Raid_ and _The Wild Bunch_). Check out Richard Slotkin's _Gunfighter Nation_ for an interesting analysis all four films.... Kali Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 kali.tal@yale.edu Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 12:46:32 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: POLLET@MAINE.MAINE.EDU Subject: hon vs. deah In Maine, diners or most anywhere, you'll be addressed as "Dear," usually spelled deah, but pronounced "dee-uh." and that's regardless of age, sex, or whiteness of beard. Happy Thanksgiving, Deahs! Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 13:34:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: westerns i've always had trouble w/ westerns. as a youngster i cd never tell the main guys apart on a black and white screen, where the only clues in any event would have been clothing color. they don't say enough to be able to distinguish them by vocal mannerism, they were all white, about the same age, same hairstyle, same clothing style. so i'd miss the whole drama, not being able to follow the plot. i also had trouble understanding what they did say when they said anything, it was all a strange jargon about "stages" and "rustling," words that, even when i could distinguish them in that strange speech, obviously meant something different from what i understood as rustling (as in, the liquefaction of her clothes) and stages. even now i have trouble w/ stuff like the x files cuz the white guys in suits all look the same to me, i can't tell when we're being introduced to a new character or just cutting back to a former thread where we've already met the guy, and their speech patterns are not sufficiently distinguishable. i could usually tell the women apart because there was only one. at most two, the madame and the ingenue. by contrast, i could tell the marx brothers apart with no difficulty, and i could always tell the chaplin character in a chaplin film. and i could usually tell may west because of the audience response on the rare occasion that my family would take in a movie, always at a "revival house" (is that the right term, or is that a religious term?) in cambridge. it's obvious i'm media-challenged. In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > >As a matter of curiosity, on the subject of the Western as poetic act, > >how many have seen > > > >The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? > >The Shootist > >The Searchers > >My Darling Clementine > >Tombstone > > I've seen all but _My Darling Clementine_. But you've left out _Once Upon A > Time in the West_, in my opinion the most grandly poetic Western of all. > And _The Professionals_. And, of course, _The Magnificent Seven_ (which > might be more operatic, come to think of it). But, of course, once we start > talking about film as "poetic act," we begin to lose the distinctiveness of > poetry as poetic act. > > I count _The Searchers_ as a Viet Nam war movie (along with _The > Professionals_, _Ulzana's Raid_ and _The Wild Bunch_). Check out Richard > Slotkin's _Gunfighter Nation_ for an interesting analysis all four films.... > > Kali > > > > Kali Tal > Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. > PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 > kali.tal@yale.edu > Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:30:44 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: westerns Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One of the greatest westerns is Utu. A New Zealand film. >>The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? >>The Shootist >>The Searchers >>My Darling Clementine >>Tombstone > >I've seen all but _My Darling Clementine_. But you've left out _Once Upon A >Time in the West_, in my opinion the most grandly poetic Western of all. >And _The Professionals_. And, of course, _The Magnificent Seven_ (which >might be more operatic, come to think of it). But, of course, once we start >talking about film as "poetic act," we begin to lose the distinctiveness of >poetry as poetic act. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 18:49:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Williams prosody Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the meter and rhyme, ("....in the sunny climate of mid-century America there were few I encountered who would listen to such sadness. A sadness that did not fit the pattern." Susan Griffin, _The eros of everyday life_) William Carlos Williams could not fit the sadness. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 15:50:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: the West MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Well, I tell ya pardner... I wouldn?t give two hoots in hell about what some sodbustin? - high fallootin? - howdy handy from Harvard has to say about the West. This here country was overrun with sidewindin? - two timin? - lowdown - cracker croakers a tryin? to run us off our land!" --somebody in "Blazing Saddles," probably not Lili Von Schtupp ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Nov 1996 20:23:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Comparative Perloff Studies In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought this might be the time to mention: my own article on Perloff's work is coming out in the long-in-production poetry issue of _Diacritics_ (with work by MP, CB, and others). I just got and returned my page proofs, so maybe the issue will actually come out (with Diacritics, you never know). Like a typical _Diacritics_ piece, my own article is both positive and critical. I use her new book to read most of the work (with the exception of the futurism book) since _The Poetics of Indeterminacy_, with particular attention to the role (vexed) of "theory" in it. I actually think it's pretty positive, but Marjorie might disagree. I think it's more conversational that judgemental, hoping to push the discussion of her work in a particular direction. Everybody should get this issue of _Diacritics_ when it comes out. I'll be happy though to send offprints of my individual article to those who would like one. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 04:21:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: M/M & westerns, deah Marjorie, What is M/M? I used to hear that line about there being no good or bad writing back when I was a student at Berkeley in the early '70s. It's an index of people who either can't read or who really don't want to be involved with literature, because they hate all of it. I'll see if I can find your review in the Chron via the search engine on The Gate. Tom et al, As to westerns, I was blown away by My Darling Clemintine the other day, an utterly wonderful film (and not at all what one might expect given that title -- a retelling of the Wyatt Earp/OK Corrall story). If I saw Tombstone, I've forgotten it. I saw the others but for the Shootist (I have a Marion Morrison allergy, and anyway actually think it was a better name than the stage moniker "John Wayne"). My exposure to westerns really came on 50s TV where some of the first series were just old Saturday movie shorts stuffed into the 30 minute slots. Red Ryder, Hopalong Cassidy, Lash LaRue (who just died two or so months ago), Sky King, Roy Rogers. One of my favorite elements to those shows was how Roy & Dale would shift time continuums from show to show. Sometimes they were back in the 1880s in the "old west," other shows they had Pat Brady & his jeep along for the ride. It may have been my earliest exposure to a Brechtian device (unless one considers watching Pinky Lee's heart attack on the air). Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 08:43:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah ron rites: > > I used to hear that line about there being no good or bad writing back > when I was a student at Berkeley in the early '70s. It's an index of > people who either can't read or who really don't want to be involved > with literature, because they hate all of it. > i don't know about this. i've just been involved in a contretemps which affected me very deeply, in which a poem i discussed for a paragraph was excised from a 30-odd page essay i wrote because the poem is, by common consensus, a "bad poem." (the editor was considering not running my entire piece because he had such an aversion to that poem, which i wasn't promoting as a "good poem" --my work doesn't do that kind of thing --but analyzing in its public context). now, i like this poem. i can see why others think its bad, but the reasons they give don't seem powerful to me. and i think it's perfectly fine. my closest friend in CA, whom i still talk to several times a week, was so upset that i liked this poem that she started to doubt the value of having me like *her* poetry, and said, among other things, that if "just anybody" could write poetry, why was she doing it. my response that she did it because she had a passion for it didn't seem to cut any mustard. she had to believe that she was "better" than most people at it. i need to find some way of theorizing this because it is crazy-making to have this juggernaut --other people's taste --used as if it were an objective, and furthermore, ultimate, gauge of anything. i really, perhaps, do think there's no such thing as good or bad poetry, though i do have my preferences. some folks gave me grief about my essay called "tell them about us," which is about the poetry written by some teenage girls in a boston housing project. personally i think it's the most interesting work i've done. but others prefer the stein, the kaufman, the duncan, etc., the stuff that's about "real" poets. i guess cultural studies and poetry have a long way to go to get together.--md ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 07:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: rubber inch Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Tue, 26 Nov 1996 11:58:11 -0400 >From: Jordan Davis >Subject: Williams' prosody and/or linebreaks > >Anybody know >of any work that >deals >intelligently >and clearly >with William Carlos >Williams' prosody >and/or >linebreaks? > >Hunkered, >Jordan Jordan-- Kenner in /A Home-Made World/, also in a piece on NJ talk and /Paterson/ in a Penguin collection on WCW edited by Tomlinson give my regards to the ridge where the west side commences.... Tenney ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:23:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i wouldn't even know where to start re westerns, i've seen so many of 'em... so this will be FUN (thanx tom!)... *my darling clementine*, like ron sez, is just beautiful in terms of its staging, use of landscape, incredible b & w cinematography (i happen to like the acting lots too, but that's another story)... you can watch it with the volume OFF---no shit... sergio leone surely learned from john ford (in addition to kurosawa, i mean, who as all film buffs know learned from american westerns that themselves imitated ETC.)... i don't have that wayne allergy ron speaks of---i'll go for *the searchers* as his and director ford's best western (wayne was so infuriating during the late sixties and early seventies i can understand being allergic, ron)... i've always loved *the good, the bad, and the ugly*, to add to kali's *once upon a time in the west* as my two favorite leone westerns (and kali---i just LOVE lee marvin's last line from *the professionals*!)... and we may as well throw the recent (kevin costner) *wyatt earp* (not bad, finally) up against *tombstone*, and throw in the older *gunfight at the ok corral* too (given this latter's remarkable cast, and that john sturges directed, same guy who did *the magnificent seven*---which latter i'm addicted to)... and what about *the ox-bow incident*---a horse opera that's really about lynching?... or *high noon*, or *the gunfighter*, or *duel in the sun*, or *one-eyed jacks*, or *the big country*, or *red river*, or *shane*, or *destry rides again* (the first destry), or *valdez is coming*, or *little big man*, or *will penny*, or *high plains drifter*, or *butch cassidy and the sundance kid*--- and how bout the early west, something like (the newest of FOUR versions, with daniel day-lewis) *the last of the mohicans*?--- and how much do we want to bend the genre? b/c *dirty harry* is clearly a cowboy-cop flick (which eastwood and don siegel played with three years ealier in *coogan's bluff*)--- and what about the silent era, from *the great train robbery* to harry carey's one- reelers to tom mix and william s. hart and hoot gibson and---? b/c the west played a key role here, before sound, in terms of landscape and motif and early film 'language'---and around, say, 1915, the west was still what many folks think of as the west--- but here's three favorites from that genre that haven't made it yet to anybody's list... anybody ever seen *the ballad of cable hogue*, sam peckinpah's one time surrealist western venture (with jason robards and stella stevens)?... and how bout (and here i'm picking my favorite from a half-dozen, on-location anthony mann gems) *the naked spur* (an older, more grizzled james stewart, with robert ryan and janet leigh)... and what about, say, *johnny guitar*---sure to please those of you yearning for a postmodern retrospective (leonard maltin always notes that the plot from this flick was lifted for leone's *once upon a time*)... mercedes mccambridge and joan crawford are remarkable... and how bout one i haven't seen (been scouring the video stores for same), jim jarmusch's *dead man*, with johnny depp (playing an accountant from cleveland name of 'william blake'), gary farmer (as a native american outcast name of 'nobody'), gabriel byrne, lance henriksen, robert mitchum (yeah---short on women folk, like so many westerns (save for mebbe *westward the women* or *hannie caulder*))... sounds like a winner, but i'll have to wait to see... mebbe somebody out there has caught it, wonderin what you think if so... and to extrapolate from ron's remarks re tv westerns: for me, early, b & w tv IS the west... from *the twilight zone* to *lost in space* to *bonanza*, so much of it utilizes western (or west coast) landscapes that when i first actually SAW the west (being from upstate ny originally), i felt like i was watching tv... joe, stuffed with stuffing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 10:00:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: taste, judgment, etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" maria, i think what happens when folks start talking about "good" vs. "bad" *anything* is that everybody starts to, well, entrench... mebbe what's necessary is to talk about assumptions here... surely to question the nature of judgment is not to suggest that we don't "judge," right?... i mean, we judge all the time---in our least judgmental states [insert quote from dewey's _experience and nature_] [note that doing so constitutes judgment] i mean, i'm not certain how i would presume to "respond" to somebody's work [insert "INCLUDING MY OWN"] w/o presuming to understand that specific aesthetic, while asking how and to what extent a work "works" given its apparent appeals (which is always a risky endeavor, yes)... which could be put in terms of what's good, not so good, etc. (a somewhat different language perhaps from what's bad, not so bad, etc.)... so value is at least two-pronged here---what we value [insert "and why"], and the appeal a work makes to a given set of (aesthetic, social, personal, somehow contextualized) values... along with further complications having to do with why we might bother with work that seems not to participate in what we value... all of which gets obscured by the word "taste," albeit taste as such is not about to go away... so provided we situate and are clear as to our own impulses---what we value---and come to a given work in such terms, we might end up by saying that a given work is "bad"... meaning, does not satisfy what we understand to be its (appeal to) value... it's not an objective reality---and i think few would say so (few around here i mean, on poetics)... but just b/c it's subjective as hell, and fully socialized, doesn't mean we can't say that we find something---a work of art or a grapefruit---"bad"... and doesn't mean, i might add, that we *shouldn't*... now if you don't like grapefruits in the first place, why then your take on grapefruits may not be all that insightful... personally, i could care less about grapefruits, but if you tell me you don't like italian food---you and me, we got a problem!... judgment can be so fuzzy---kinda like that old joke that woody allen uses someplace or other about the two old folks eating at the restaurant---"the food is terrible here" says one, to which the other replies "yes---and such small portions"... anyway, i trust *your* judgment, maria!... best, joe, ready for another sweet potato ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 09:10:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: "The Man Who Shot the Other Man" Comments: To: tmandel@screenporch.com In-Reply-To: <329DAEA2-00000001@tmandel.cais.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tom: I've seen 'em all, as you would probably guess -- When I moved East at age 12, I was astonished to find that my new playmates had formed their image of the West entirely from films -- they didn't belive me when I told them we had flown East in a plane! -- When I moved West, at age 36, I had the shock of visiting the backlots where many Westerns were filmed -- finding that those disparate loclaes were all the same locale -- anybody care to comment on how the conjunction functions in the descriptor "country & western" ?? AND, for you music hounds out there -- There's a video titled "Times Ain't What They Used to Be" that includes what may be the only surviving film footage of Jimmy Rodgers, and a host of other rare clips of music performance -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:06:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... i have trouble with the "no good no bad literature" school. it seems to be part of the devaluing of writing, literature, reading in general. for example, we all (or we most) sing in the shower. but we do not imagine ourselves frederica von stadt and pavoratti, we do not write indignant letters saying "why DOESN'T the metropolitan opera pay us thousands of dollars and let us do our "Barber of Seville" rendition... we don't play our air guitar and then wax indignant that we are as good as any musician in the boston symphony orchestra and anyway why HASN'T the orchestra taken us up... we don't sew a torn moccasin up and then demand that hospitals give us operating room privileges becasue we ought to be sewing patients since we can sew moccasins... in other words, i think writing poetry is a skill, just like playing the violin, like dancing, like being a surgeon, and it deserves the same respect. there is a craft, there are more effective skilled ways to shape something and less so... within the craft, there is, say, the violinist for the Cheiftans, and there is the BSO symphony violinist, and they are both very good but very different. everyone SHOULD be able to sing in the shower, sing with their friends, sing in the car, use singing to express things best expressed that way and enjoy the act, but why is it we can acknowledge that "yes, i sing in the shower but no, i am not a brilliant singer" but if we write in a journal, string some thoughts in a few lines with a rhyme, we have to be Profound, Great Writers and No One Is Better Than Us... blah blah blah i see universities trashing writing programs, english departments, students trashing composition, and it is all, it seems to me, part of a slide into insisting that there are no skills, no abilities, no craft, and anyone can write and it is all great in complete denial of the number of books that are trash books, books written for light, thoughtless consumption which do not last beyond that reading -- barbara cartland fill-in-the-heroine books, fad books, and great, strong, dense works like, of course, shakespeare but also chaucer, edith wharton, sarah orne jewett, judy grahn, joyce, etc. etc. which are read over and over, which hold so much thought and craft and work and ability that each reading brings something new and strong and true. why is it so important to so many to denigrate writers and disrespect what they do? to trash the people who search and learn and think and practice with words while we validate people who do that with engines, numbers, hair, paint, singing? e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:16:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: western style danish please more on the west: as a half-dane, i used to encounter danish kids whose idea of america was formed from westerns. they'd be puzzled that i didn't know any cowboys and that my father (the american) didn't ride a horse. mother tells the story of how, when my father went over to denmark for their wedding, her little cousin charged his friends 10 ?re to see the american, and the kids wanted their money back afterwards; he couldn't be a real american cuz he wasn't wearing a gun and holster and chaps, a stetson hat and cowboy boots. i even learned a cowboy song in danish: jeg har min hest, jeg har min lasso, jeg har en sweetheart i el paso. min bedste ven var indianer, han var den sidste mohicaner. you can pretty much figure out what it means. in danish, the word for blue jeans translates as "cowboy pants." even now, my cousins think most americans die by gunshot and own guns. they've turned down professional opportunities cuz they think the states is too violent a place to move to with their kids. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:22:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" e, only problem i have with the way you put things is your emphasis on "craft," b/c it seems to me it's the "craft" tradition that's the problem... esp. in "creative writing" classrooms, the master-apprentice relationship permits for uncritical criticism of "creative" work... i just picked up a flyer the other day for a new book, _the craft of science writing_ or some such... and another for _the craft of research_ or some such (this latter authored by joe williams, greg colomb and wayne booth!---i may have the title wrong)... "craft" is itself a crafty word, whose etymology (in this case esp., etymology needs to be considered) points to the difficulties of instating it as the *institutional* means through which to establish value... i understand what you're getting at, of course (hell, my dad was a craftsman by all accounts) but i really do think we need to find a better language, a language that gives us recourse to skills and talents and such like that aren't predicated merely on transparency of same, 'handed-down' as gospel... b/c esp. in these political climes, emphasizing craft is going to be understood as saying that thus & so can be transferred from one head to another (like technology---and with craft, then, we end up with the romantic genius)... hell, it was to my dad's credit that he went against the grain, so to speak, even as he became more proficient (and here i refrain from saying he was an "innovator" b/c of what's been done to that poor word)... anyway, as a sort of friendly amendment, if i may... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:29:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Felix Subject: Re: westerns and dead white men, Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" joe amato wrote: >and how bout one i haven't seen (been scouring the video stores for same), >jim jarmusch's *dead man*, with johnny depp (playing an accountant from >cleveland name of 'william blake'), gary farmer (as a native american >outcast name of 'nobody'), gabriel byrne, lance henriksen, robert mitchum >(yeah---short on women folk, like so many westerns (save for mebbe >*westward the women* or *hannie caulder*))... sounds like a winner, but >i'll have to wait to see... mebbe somebody out there has caught it, >wonderin what you think if so... Dead Man? Well, I don't know the first thing abt the west outside of Cormac McCarthy novels--that's not true I drove thru the desert one year and loved it like a Finn would. Anyway, dead man-- the name "william blake" was incidental unless one counts the character blake's visions as an equasion to the poet. I thought the film careened back and forth from parody of the Western to fable-making abt the west, meaning that I would have laughed myself blue if Jarmusch's cinematographer (muller?) hadn't been pulling the film into the direction of the sublime. Which is to say it's like watching Weston or Addams at 24 picture frames per second. But that's Jarmusch in my opinion, a beckettian ad-mix of mordant horror yuck-fest. I thought the opening 15 minutes with Christian Slater (did anyone else see him Karate kick david letterman with his platform shoe in 1988, it was a seminal event in my late adolescence) fantastic, moving, more exactly "dream-like" than any peice of filmaking I have ever seen. But the total is a lot more than that, JJ side-glances at jesuits and the implied machinery of the West-ward advance. And "Nobody" the indian paints dying "willam blake's" face white as a skull but also the white man is death for him and for the land. And the white man *is* and *is* for Nobody by the end of the film, the last 15 minutes of which contain a hair-raising mix of shlock and the sublime. But I saw this film with abt 15 friends 7 of them female and only one woman cared for it much, and she with a shrugging off of the fact that all this damnation in the movie stems from (1) capital (trade, industry, land) and (2) the poor judgement of women. I won't rehash the plot here, but i'm curious if anyone else read the film as damn near misogenist. joel felix ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:56:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... At the New Coast conference Thad Ziolkowski raised the question of taste & was met with, well, not much. It may be that it's the wrong language-game. It may be better to say "what's this piece of writing _doing_" & what contexts, cultural/political/philosophical is it engaging, & how. This would still allow for value judgements but hopefully would cause one to emphasize the contingency of such judgements & to acknowledge the context(s) (also contingent of course) the judgement is arising from. Eliza wrote: "i see universities trashing writing programs, english departments, students trashing composition, and it is all, it seems to me, part of a slide into insisting that there are no skills" This seems to me driven largely by economics-- a corporate ideology of "there's not enough to go around"-- in many institutions there's plenty for the computer lab, &/or research in disciplines that have short term benefit to industry, often the defense industry. I don't find this very tasteful. I've encountered recently, from more than one friend of mine, the statement "I hate jazz." This seems to me a very problematic exercise of "taste." To cordon off entire cultural areas like this. & seems a fairly regular occurence in this culture actually which may have replaced other sorts of prejudice among those with some degree of education-- prejudice moved into genres of culture rather than more crass expressions of prejudice. "I hate reggae" "I hate opera" "I hate Bob Dylan"(he's his own genre ya know, or more appropriate to say in dismissing him you're dismissing an entire tradition) "I hate _____." It seems to me one has to _try_ & withold value judgments when first encountering a work of art, music, whatever. Again, to see what it's _doing_, yet people's reactions at times seem so _visceral_ -- they're not willing to grant an artwork a valid context at all. They're wrong about this. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: l=a=n=g=u=a=e In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII thanks george, i never even thought to ask. his office is just one floor up. it's odd when someone on the left coast has to give you directions in your own building. kevin On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, George Bowering wrote: > The Canadian edition of the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E anthology was run as a number > of _Open Letter_. Maybe there's a copy or two of that. Address Frank Davey, > at fdavey@julian.uwo. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:30:10 +0500 Reply-To: bil@orca.sitesonthe.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's interesting, to me, the relationship to mass media movies and poetics. I wonder about that, TV, sitcoms, animated features, the whole baulliraud (sp?) connexxition. Also cdrom and stuff in relationship to the "word as image//image as virus", relationship with contempoary poetics. I mean, are we going to be taking apart films other than Brakage/Deren in a few years and saying there is cinematic poetry there?? What about Star Trek (Anselm Hollo once recounted to me his "secret" passion for sci-Fi films (although it was Solaris (after Lem's book)). As a twenty-somthin', I find it really difficult to come outside of media in my poetics, and find media (film/tv esp) really limiting my sight/site on the Poetry landscape. Maybe it's all glossalalia. These weird "languages" interupting perception. Maybe not. What are the thots on this folks. (Silliman & MP esp here for responses) Bil Brown Naropa 1991-1995 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:31:58 +0500 Reply-To: bil@orca.sitesonthe.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit maria, Maybe not. Ethnopoetics is in a WAY cultural studies. Get ahold of Jerry Rothenberg's anthologies, quick!! Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:36:25 +0500 Reply-To: bil@orca.sitesonthe.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Second thot: Serials Serial Poem Serial Killers Breakfast Serial Daytime Serial Nighttime Serial Serial Mom Spicer's Serial Serial Serial Serial You see, media does have it's adverse affects... Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:48:34 +0500 Reply-To: bil@orca.sitesonthe.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bil Brown Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah man, but haven't you been to those HORRIBLE readings where it's osmeone you have been waiting to see yr whole LIFE and they sound like two fucking cans tied together with a cord (hey now that isn't a bad idea). Or a silly juvi-40yrold that thinks thier genius is between their head when it's between their legs (but IF I wanted to see that I wd rent "Debbie Does Dallas". Poetry needs CANDOR to survive as a fine art. The medium necessitates mindfulness, if that isn't craft then it at least has to be duende. Then again, my veiw of what is "good" and "bad" art is pretty extended. I like most anything that doesn't put me to sleep. Maybe that isn't so critical. I can be more critical, craft wise, in workshops, and editing. The less obvious something is, the better. That's the way I like MY art. Cheers, Bil Brown ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 12:56:55 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Eliza writes: >for >example, we all (or we most) sing in the shower. but we do not imagine >ourselves frederica von stadt and pavoratti, we do not write indignant >letters saying "why DOESN'T the metropolitan opera pay us thousands of >dollars and let us do our "Barber of Seville" rendition... we don't play >our air guitar and then wax indignant that we are as good as any musician >in the boston symphony orchestra and anyway why HASN'T the orchestra >taken us up... It's this kind of comparison that, I think, points up some of the weaknesses in the "good / bad literature school." Eliza, I don't know you, so please don't read any personal judgement into my words--I'm just working with the text you've placed on the screen. The "good" music that you're comparing the "bad" shower music to is all.... classical. I might have assumed you were using classical music only as an example (instead of the *only* good music), except for the "air guitar" comment, which juxtaposes "(bad) teen bad music" (rock) against "mature good music" (classical). This "low culture" / "high culture" split usually works to devalue the cultural productions of nonwhite and working class people. Similarly, the "good / bad literature" school works to devalue the writing of nonwhite and working class people--except insofar as those people can master the writing styles of the white upper class. For me, the question always is: "*Why* are people writing in a particular way, about a particular set of subjects?" Aesthetics are relative, and I am bound to find rap music "bad" if I'm judging it on the same terms I judge contemporary classical performances. I can start to find rap "good" (and to distinguish between "good rap" and "bad rap") if I understand rap's own traditions, its connection to a rhythm-based West African aesthetic, its ties to blues and jazz forms, its invocation of and Signifyin(g) on the act of storytelling, its creation of the rapper as trickster figure (Signifying Monkey), and its place in a long line of politically subversive acts deliberately and self-consciously undertaken by an historically oppressed people. If I'm working within the rap aesthetic, I can start to understand how brilliantly Ice T handles the medium (he's "good"), and explain why poor imitations (like Vanilla Ice) are "bad." I make my "good / bad" distinctions within particular, pretty clearly defined categories, and I tend not to compare categories. (To me the question of whether rap is "better" or "worse" than classical music is simply not compelling.) And even within particular categories, I temper my "good / bad" judgements with a follow-up question. "But, is it *interesting*?" Something can be "bad," but still be interesting (because it does something, because it means something), which implies that as a cultural critic I ought to pay attention to it. In fact, I often care more about "interesting" than "good" *or* "bad". Like most cultural critics, I've pretty much given up the notion of some sort of fixed set of standards, and operate on the level Joe (hi, Joe!) suggests, the level of trying to understand "to what extent a work 'works' given its apparent appeals." >in other words, i think writing poetry is a skill, just like playing the >violin, like dancing, like being a surgeon, and it deserves the same >respect. there is a craft, there are more effective skilled ways to shape >something and less so... within the craft, there is, say, the violinist >for the Cheiftans, and there is the BSO symphony violinist, and they are >both very good but very different. Again, I'll nod to Joe here, and note that craft guilds have traditionally been exclusive, often for motives more economic than skill-related. (For example, black craftsmen were barred from Southern guilds and, later, unions.) These days I find that the writing "craft guilds" tend to enforce a pattern of exclusion of writers whose subject matter or style doesn't necessarily serve the interests of the "master craftsmen/women" who run the "creative writing" programs and workshops, and who do the hiring of the next generation of "master craftsmen/women." In fact, I make it a practice to publish poets who find themselves excluded by these guilds, or who reject the environment and judgements of these guilds. Not-so-coincidentally, most of the poets I publish are working class and prefer to see themselves in terms of the working class, rather than adopting the "professional" status of the "literary" writer. Just as the level of working class voices and the display of working class manners can make "genteel" diners flinch in restaurants, I find that quite a few "guild poets" and critics flinch at the bald intent of these working class writers to express themselves in the language that is their own. Frankly, I've got no patience for this, and I think that such dismissals are more likely due to a refusal of the privileged to pay attention to what the working class is *doing* than to the poor quality of poetry produced by working class writers. I enjoy listening to Maria Callas recordings. I also like Coltrane and Miles, Ice T and Boogie Down Productions, Live and Nirvana, Ida Cox and Howlin' Wolf, Shirley & Lee and Johnny Guitar Watson (no relation to the Western movie), Aster Awake and Manu Dibango. "Good" is what works the best to do that thing you do. Kali Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 kali.tal@yale.edu Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 13:13:23 MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Staff Net Subject: taste & etc. to move back towards maria's initial post in this thread, it seems to me that what's revealed in a statement like > i really, perhaps, do think there's no such thing as good or bad poetry, >though i do have my preferences. is a tension between 'taste' & all that implies (ie., the social constitution of the 'individual' & so taste, etc.) and what use can be made of a cultural artifact. 'taste' has its place [wants to say "inextricable"--see previous parenthesis], ie., is [has no doubt] reflected in the choice of objects & the critique itself (there is some'one' to steer and adjust, some'one' to drive the car), but can't somehow invalidate an object qua cultural artifact. as joe is quick to point out, 'bad' is only 'bad' within >a given set of (aesthetic, social, personal, somehow >contextualized) values, which doesn't render judgement somehow 'wrong' (im not sure what this could mean in this case--seems paradoxical), but does point up its contingency. what i find distressing about the editor you (maria) mention is that he seems not to see this tension, misses the contingency of judgement--or, more troubling, understands it and enforces "common consensus" anyway. leaving aside the question of whether you like the poem or not, you use it (presumably) to enact a critique. his decision to excise it on the basis of 'common taste' [ beloved chimera] makes as much sense as excising an analysis of, say, an episode of "three 's company," because, well, no one ever really liked that show anyway. incidentally i think the consideration of 'taste' vs. 'use' [wants to say "exchange value" vs "use value"--but doesnt want to muddle the issue] can be a fruitful one in terms of poetics. im reminded of Charles Bernstein's contribution to _Writing/Talks_, towards the end of which he might be taken as [trying not to be reductive] pointing up this same tension: "I don't think I manage to achieve as many possible interpretations as I might like. . . . I'm very much limited by what makes sense to me, because of this horribly mistaken but nonetheless ongoing concern for the poem to sound right." .. chris alexander, etc. calexand@alexandria.lib.edu "Be sure, in writing that you get what you are after... the thing, in fact, is what you are writing down." WCW ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:43 AM 11/29/96 -0600, maria damon wrote: >i don't know about this. i've just been involved in a contretemps which >affected me very deeply, in which a poem i discussed for a paragraph was excised >from a 30-odd page essay i wrote because the poem is, by common consensus, a >"bad poem." (the editor was considering not running my entire piece because he >had such an aversion to that poem, which i wasn't promoting as a "good poem" How bad can it be? Would like to see it if possible? tome bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:33:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kali Tal wrote: > > I enjoy listening to Maria Callas recordings. I also like Coltrane and > Miles, Ice T and Boogie Down Productions, Live and Nirvana, Ida Cox and > Howlin' Wolf, Shirley & Lee and Johnny Guitar Watson (no relation to the > Western movie), Aster Awake and Manu Dibango. "Good" is what works the best > to do that thing you do. > > Kali yes indeed, Kali, or as Duke Ellington said: "If it sounds good, it is good." Pierre -- pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do not believe that there ever was a question of being abstract or representational. It is really a matter of ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and stretching one's arms again. Mark Rothko ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:33:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:21 AM 11/29/96 -0800, you wrote: >Marjorie, > >What is M/M? > >I used to hear that line about there being no good or bad writing back >when I was a student at Berkeley in the early '70s. It's an index of >people who either can't read or who really don't want to be involved >with literature, because they hate all of it. And in the late '70's in grad school in a class supposedly on approaches to criticism I was taught quite seriously that "one should not write about literature one likes, because one can not be properly objective" about it. That is the remembered quotation, anyway. Strange workings, wouldn't one say? charles ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 14:33:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: hon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:47 PM 11/26/96 -0800, you wrote: >This is weird. >At Daphne Marlatt's launch for her new book tonight I called her "Hon," >having known her since 1961. George Who is the publisher of Daphne's new book? Is it widely available? charles alexander ------------------------------------------------------------ get off my back. the future fields into which I write are unimaginable. I do not know, any more than you do, what is around me, nor how far to go, nor precisely what I leave behind. --Beverly Dahlen from A Reading 8 - 10 published by Chax Press ------------------------------------------------------------ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:44:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Victor Grauer Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:06 PM 11/29/96 -0500, Eliza McGrand wrote: >i have trouble with the "no good no bad literature" school. it seems to >be part of the devaluing of writing, literature, reading in general. >in other words, i think writing poetry is a skill, just like playing the >violin, like dancing, like being a surgeon, and it deserves the same >respect. there is a craft, there are more effective skilled ways to shape >something and less so... within the craft, there is, say, the violinist >for the Cheiftans, and there is the BSO symphony violinist, and they are >both very good but very different. I am in strong sympathy with the above, but must add: art is short, craft is long. We cannot, must not confuse art with craft. Art is short, craft is long. Many artists have worked hard to shed craft (e.g., Picasso, Ginsberg, Cage, etc., etc.) in order to get more deeply in touch with their art. Art can be intimately tied to immediacy, spontaneity -- craft cannot. And yes, "anyone" (meaning someone with little or no training) *can* produce a work of art, even a great work of art. But it takes many years of dedicated work to produce even decent craftsmanship. Great craftsmanship can take a lifetime. So: 1. skill and training are required for craftsmanship, not art. 2. Fine craftsmanship should by no means be regarded as inferior to art. 3. Most serious artists ultimately become fine craftsmen in any case, simply because it requires craftsmanship to get what you *want* (as opposed to something that is "merely" art). 4. Even if art is not craft, art criticism definitely is. Therefore, anyone, even a great artist, cannot simply declare her/himself a great artist. Nor can just anyone make judgements on art that are deserving of our respect. Only someone who has spent years perfecting the craft of critical looking and thinking is in a position to pronounce a work of art good or bad. 5. A really fine critic would know better than to pronounce a work good or bad in any case. Criticism is not a matter of opinion, but revelation. Victor (art is short, craft is long) Grauer ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:26:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WKL888@AOL.COM Subject: Once Upon a Time in the West, etc. Thu, Nov 28, 1996 1:40 PM EDT, Kali.Tal@YALE.EDU wrote: >But you've left out _Once Upon A >Time in the West_, in my opinion the most grandly poetic >Western of all. One of the Great Westerns yes-certainly among the 2 or 3 most remarkable spaghetti Westerns-but to me "grandly" poetic misdescribes the paranoically tight close-ups (of sliding interlocked gazes, objects in rooms, sudden glints and spills of sunlight, etc.) that so much of the film's psychology relies on. The viewer is not freely roaming in a vast plain (grand), but always already anxious about sighting and being sited. From another angle, it's like a grafting of international anime techniques from comic strips and animation back into one of their source genres. Also, it's a Western w some of the most effectively "true grit", as in the train scenes and the way the light often seems to fight its way through a rough static dust. Also definitely reveals that Henry Fonda should have played more VILLAINS in his career; I think it's his best role, aside from the young buffoon tycoon playboy in... Can anyone help me w the title? His co-star was Barbara Stanwyck as a gambling cheat's daughter aboard an oceanliner-Preston Sturges wrote the very witty script... In any case, I'd like to throw another Western title into the hat: Jodorowsky's _El Topo_, in which gunslinging, Zen paradox, Todd Browning's midgets, Judaeo-Christian apocalypse, mystic quest tale, and frontier town fuse (jeez, beginning to sound like J. Hoberman in the _Village Voice_) into one potent hallucinogen, or at least that's the way I felt when I saw it several times in college. I believe that Jodorowsky's actors sat in a circle and drank freshly drawn horse blood before each day's shoot in the desert; my friends and I ingested other preparations before going to the theater and hardly made it back to the dorm. It's a Western in which the characters that lose the duel win. Q: What's the title of the Western in which a young Wm. Shatner plays a gunslinger who battles his twin? It's full of mirrors. Walter K. Lew c/o Prof. J. Chang English Dept. Boston College Chestnut Hill, MA 02167 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:34:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bradford J Senning Subject: Re: the West In-Reply-To: <329E2538.15B0@concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Thu, 28 Nov 1996, Rachel Loden wrote: > "Well, I tell ya pardner... I wouldn=92t give two hoots in hell about wha= t > some sodbustin=92 - high fallootin=92 - howdy handy from Harvard has to s= ay > about the West. This here country was overrun with sidewindin=92 - two > timin=92 - lowdown - cracker croakers a tryin=92 to run us off our land!" >=20 > --somebody in "Blazing Saddles," probably not Lili Von Schtupp >=20 I believe the "somebody" you are looking for is Gabby Johnson (at least the last name is certain, as everyone in the town of Rock Ridge is named Johnson - inbreeding I suppose). You may want to double-check your source; the quote is quite mangled. -bradford senning ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 15:56:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bradford J Senning Subject: Re: westerns and dead white men, In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19961129182947.006a853c@pop3serv1.cc.uic.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 29 Nov 1996, Joel Felix wrote: > Dead Man? > ... I thought the opening 15 minutes with Christian > Slater (did anyone else see him Karate kick david letterman with his > platform shoe in 1988, it was a seminal event in my late adolescence) > umm... I've never seen Dead Man myself... but I did see David Letterman almost shit his pants when *Crispin Glover* shot a karate kick over his desk and come within inches from his nose. It's an image I'll never forget and have developed a certain respect for Mr Glover that transcended his great movie roles (one of which, the stoner friend of Keanu Reeves in The River's Edge, was a true story about a murder in my home town of Milpitas. -anybody catch that flick?). I'm not a Letterman enthusiast and don't catch many of his shows, so I don't know if Christian Slater attempted the same feat. Wouldn't that be interesting - cataloguing the guests who have taken swings at Letterman (or how many wanted to)? -bradford senning ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:09:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Originally sent a version of this just to Maria, but having read other folks' stuff thought I'd throw this into the stew (Maria I changed it in response to other comments): How about meticulousness and attention to the genre (even if you're inventing one on the spot, e.g., Stein, Cage, Bill Monroe, Bob Dylan -- no hi/lo distinctions here!) as opposed to, say, self-expression (which notion gives me the creeps)? It isn't a question of wanting to be better. It's more a question of lineage, heritage, transmission (2 Buddhist words and a Jewish one there, my standpoint is showing). Once you place yourself in a genre you run the risk of failing, at least comparatively, while if you are not caring about genre you can't possibly fail. Does any of this make sense? My cousin Deborah Kahn is a painter who spends weeks, even months, putting paint on and scraping paint off the same canvas. Why doesn't she just stop the first time? That's a very important point. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Glad to have Math, University of Kansas | these copies of things Lawrence, KS 66045 | after a while." 913-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 16:39:28 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: Once Upon a Time in the West, etc. >Thu, Nov 28, 1996 1:40 PM EDT, Kali.Tal@YALE.EDU wrote: >>But you've left out _Once Upon A >>Time in the West_, in my opinion the most grandly poetic >Western of all. > >One of the Great Westerns yes-certainly among the 2 or 3 most remarkable >spaghetti Westerns-but to me "grandly" poetic misdescribes the paranoically >tight close-ups (of sliding interlocked gazes, objects in rooms, sudden >glints and spills of sunlight, etc.) that so much of the film's psychology >relies on. The viewer is not freely roaming in a vast plain (grand), but >always already anxious about sighting and being sited. From another angle, >it's like a grafting of international anime techniques from comic strips and >animation back into one of their source genres. Also, it's a Western w some >of the most effectively "true grit", as in the train scenes and the way the >light often seems to fight its way through a rough static dust. You're right about this, Walter. "Grandly poetic" applied only to the themes the film addresses, not to the cinematography/directing, which is exactly as you describe it. It's just that there's something so... grand... about the Bronson/Robards/Fonda juxtaposition. They are all three much larger than life, a pantheon rather than a character set. And when they're all shot so close, it just makes them look bigger--sort of like Hopkins surging out of his too-tight prison jumpsuit in _Silence of the Lambs_. Kali Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 kali.tal@yale.edu Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 18:40:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand- CVA Guest Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah i think M/M is Marilyn Munroe... e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 17:51:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... folks, sorry if u get this twice, something happened on my computer so i don't know: > thanks all for your replies. i hesitate to post the poem because, well, > because i've had such terrible experiences showing it. i showed a video clip > of it at a conference at albany that some of you were at and i could hear the > moans and groans. one person wouldn't talk to me for the rest of the > conference, and i could see others sort of more diplomatically revising their > opinions of me as a professional, which revision was reflected in the way > they treated me --friendly but --a bit distant, if you know what i mean. my > closest friend in california, whom i've known now for over ten years, and i > had our first serious fight over this poem. we had to agree not to discuss > it any more. i've cleared the air w/ the editor about my thinking he was > threatening not to run my piece (he says wasn't, he was saying, "let's think > about how to handle this") but the issue as a disciplinary and aesthetic one > remains. is the whole world like my department? i hope not. i feel > heartened by those who talk about the cultural work a piece does. these are > the questions i find most rewarding to pursue. aesthetics are not ancillary > to this type of inquiry, but what those aesthetics are have to vary. at the > same time i need to say that i would never write about something that doesn't > move me. so i'm not simply picking some mass cultural artifact out of the > blue and saying, oh let's analyze this just to show that it can be done. if > what moves me strikes the vast majority of my colleagues as dreck, what can i > say? when i heard folks in my dept say stuff like, "the problem w/ cultural > studies is that you don't get to work on the truly great works of > literature," i thought i'd died and been sent to hell. i'd be really freaked > out if the rest of the world followed this retrograde view. as for > ethnopoetics, and this is delicate territory because i have great respect for > the "movement" and its practitioners and their project in many ways resonates > with my concerns it seems that the ethnopoetic scholars and poets have for > the most part still been guided by a post-romantic modernist aesthetic that > posits a "universal" and transcendent standard of verbal beauty. that is why > one reason the anthologies can be so comprehensive and global; what holds the > artifacts together and makes the anthologies cohere conceptually is precisely > a notion of shared, even universal value. i guess, and this is a banality, > people find vastly different things moving. i was always more drawn to those > old ballads where people get murdered and murder their children etc than to > the poetry we were reading in school, like those anthologies "some haystacks > don't even have any needle," or "reflections on a gift of watermelon pickle." > i enjoyed talking about the latter in class, but the poems didn't make my > hair stand on end the way, say, the millions of versions of "tamlin" in > campbell and sharpe's "english folk songs from the southern appalachians" > did. i guess i'm a sucker for melodrama and, well, the dark end of the > street. abjection, wierdness, histrionics. maybe the sound of a significant > other singing in the shower might move me more than elizabeth schwartzkopf on > the stereo, tho' it's hard to beat those first lovers' arias in la boheme for > emotional drama. oh well, my modem just timed me out so i'm obviously > wearing out my cyberwelcome.--thanks for listening to my histrionix --maria d > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 21:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WKL888@AOL.COM Subject: One down, one to go Just answered my own Q abt the Henry Fonda/Barbara Stanwyck film: "The Lady Eve". But wd still appreciate help w the young Wm. Shatner Western w mirrors. WKL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:12:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Victor Grauer Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 05:51 PM 11/29/96 -0600, maria damon wrote: >> thanks all for your replies. i hesitate to post the poem because, well, >> because i've had such terrible experiences showing it. C'mon maria, we gotta see this poem. *I* gotta see this poem. We promise to be nice. Besides hardly anyone's here, they're all off on vacations. So now's a good time to squeeze it in. Victor Grauer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:05:43 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I hate jetskis. dan >I've encountered recently, from more than one friend of mine, the statement >"I hate jazz." This seems to me a very problematic exercise of "taste." To >cordon off entire cultural areas like this. & seems a fairly regular >occurence in this culture actually which may have replaced other sorts of >prejudice among those with some degree of education-- prejudice moved into >genres of culture rather than more crass expressions of prejudice. "I hate >reggae" "I hate opera" "I hate Bob Dylan"(he's his own genre ya know, or more >appropriate to say in dismissing him you're dismissing an entire tradition) >"I hate _____." It seems to me one has to _try_ & withold value judgments >when first encountering a work of art, music, whatever. Again, to see what >it's _doing_, yet people's reactions at times seem so _visceral_ -- they're >not willing to grant an artwork a valid context at all. They're wrong about >this. > >--Rod > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:07:19 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Then again didn't burroughs say if a thing is worth doing its worth doing badly or something, dan >yes indeed, Kali, or as Duke Ellington said: "If it sounds good, it is >good." > >Pierre > >-- >pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 >tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu >http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ >http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html >---------------------------------------------------------------- >I do not believe that there ever was a question of being >abstract or representational. It is really a matter of >ending this silence and solitude, of breathing and >stretching one's arms again. > >Mark Rothko > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:07:34 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: Once Upon a Time in the West, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Voice from New Zealand again says check out our greatest western & we have had severl + 'Utu' dir Geoff Murphy. Fantastic sprawling film. dan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:17:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: the good, the bad, and the ugly In-Reply-To: <329ef67d4d18011@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've had an experience a bit like Maria's -- The shortest rejection letter I ever received for an essay said, and said nothing more about the essay, that the two readers "couldn't warm up to the poetry" I was discussing (which was by Steve Jonas) -- I seem always caught between people who want to assign their own aesthetic principles to eternity ("there is a good and bad, measurable, hovering out there beyond my own set of experiences somewhere") and those who deny that there is any possibility of discussing the "goodness" or "badness" of any individual work of art -- Why is it so often so difficult to get a discussion going with each other about the nature of our aesthetic judgements and how they got that way? Worst recent example came during a discussion at PAMLA in Irvine this month -- A professor of German rose to avow that there simply wasn't enough time to spend reading contemporary works -- we should attend only to those which have withstood the test of time -- and besides, he announced, nobody could tell what was "good or bad" in contemporary art anyway -- I responded that a refusal to read the contemporary was an abdication of the very testing of time to which he appealed -- He was later heard to refer to me as "one of those Cal State people" -- ah well,,, I've got an essay in that forthcoming _Diacritics_ too (there's another long story) -- a longer version of the talk I gave at Orono on Russell Atkins -- Damn, these Turkey leftovers make good eating while watching latenight westerns on the tube! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Nov 1996 22:20:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: half-Danes of the Western world, Unite In-Reply-To: <329f286b6ac9008@mhub2.tc.umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maria -- Ever visit that Danish tourist village North of Los Angeles? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:25:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: half-Danes of the Western world, Unite In message UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Maria -- Ever visit that Danish tourist village North of Los Angeles? no, but i heard of it. what's it like? when my mother visited mpls recently i thought she'd be charmed by the great evidence of her countrymen here in the northland. instead she pulled me aside and said you know, the white people here are really very boring looking. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:28:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: the good, the bad, and the ugly aldon rites: > > I've got an essay in that forthcoming _Diacritics_ too (there's another > long story) -- a longer version of the talk I gave at Orono on Russell > Atkins -- > > who edited this issue? (subtext: damn! how come *I* don't have an essay in that forthcoming Diacritics?)--md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 08:30:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... In message <199611300605.TAA15611@ihug.co.nz> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > I hate jetskis. > > dan > > what are jetskis? is this an ethnic slur? or waterskis? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:45:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: half-Danes of the Western world, Unite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thinking of Danes, does anybody on the list know anything about a contemporary Danish composer called Per Norgard (slash through the o; small circle on a )-- he has done, so I am told, an opera based on the life of the poet/paintert/schizo Adolf W?lfli, broadcast on Danish tv a few years ago? -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- "A book has to be the axe for the frozen sea inside us. This I believe." (Kafka, Letter to Oskar Pollack 27 Jan 1904) ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:55:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... hello rod---i don't know if this is going to you personally or to the list--but it doesn't really matter in a way--anyway just wanted to let you know i'm back on again (DUH!) and that i was in a bookshop with l"sl" j and was looking at the terrible magazine "george" (sorry, it's just TASTE--really i may change my mind tomorrow!) and noticed that they stole your ON YOUR KNEES, CITIZEN" idea---hey maybe I'm legally liable (labile?) saying this and it would be great to be SUED...just think what it did for ginsypoo......yours in "myth"--cs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:02:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: half-Danes of the Western world, Unite pierre, i dont know anything about danish high culture so i cant help you (ask about food, cross-stitching or farm animals, though) --but i didn't realize wolfli was a poet too. can u post a small sample of his writings, as well as tell us how to get hold of it --is it translated?--md In message <32A04A73.2336@cnsunix.albany.edu> UB Poetics discussion group writes: > Thinking of Danes, does anybody on the list know anything about a > contemporary Danish composer called Per Norgard (slash through the o; > small circle on a )-- he has done, so I am told, an opera based on the > life of the poet/paintert/schizo Adolf W?lfli, broadcast on Danish tv a > few years ago? > -- > ========================================= > pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 > tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ > http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > "A book has to be the axe for the frozen sea inside us. > This I believe." > > (Kafka, Letter to Oskar Pollack 27 Jan 1904) > ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:13:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Once Upon a Time in the West, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" walter, one of only two flicks of shatner's that i *haven't* seen, according to this film ref. i've got sitting here next to the tube, is *hour of vengeance* (italian, 1968)... is this the film you're thinking of?... while we're at it: those of you who haven't seen shatner as a racist in roger corman's *the intruder* (1962) should run right out and try to locate this one... powerful flick... aside from the apt interpretations thus far rendered wrt leone's *once upon a time*, i think one of the key elements that stands out is the sheer humor of his work... it's bloody and balletic and alla that, and the close-ups 'sweat,' yes, but so much of it is so downright funny... in fact, i think this is where/how leone redirects the traditional western mythos so that he gets some mileage toward the sublime/grand... note the threes in his best two westerns---bronson/fonda/robards and eastwood/van cleef/wallach... it's the low-down dirty (gun)fighter---wallach (the ugly) or robards (cheyenne)---who mediates twixt the bad (van cleef or fonda) and the "good" (bronson or eastwood---bad when they're good, and better when they're bad, to riff on mae west)... wallach is a bit of a clown, referring to eastwood as "blondie," crossing himself every time he kills somebody, and setting up (with eastwood) that phony bounty hunting-hanging motif that frames the flick... and in robards' entrance he's trying to find somebody who knows how to "play"... recall his shooting the guy in the train with a gun in his boot... i nearly split my sides when i first saw that scene... but the point is that the humor bumps right up against death---i mean, the guy whose face is staring at the boot dies, robards dies, and if blondie didn't have a sense of humor at the end of *the good, the bad, and the ugly*, wallach would die too... even the punch-line of *once upon a time*, the revelation of that harmonica tune, is a form of poetic justice that turns on a certain sadistic sense of humor... a bit too neat perhaps, but this is how i see the larger-than-screen-life emerge--- naturally, it's the 'good' and the 'ugly' who bond against the bad, the really bad... so both flicks are in essence buddies flicks, with morality addressed only as figured in the extremes of evil, and comic relief or smartassedness (like quips out of a comic book, yes) as a way to neutralize (or punctuate, if you see it this way) both the homoeroticism and the reality of death... geez i really love those films!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:30:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Thomas M. Orange" Subject: teaching good/bad writing: good/bad? In-Reply-To: <9611300505.AA18160@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hi folks, i hear another topic rumbling in the distance. i'm curious to hear what people think about teaching and awarding degrees in creative writing at the university. i've heard it argued (convincingly to my mind) as (yet) a(nother) attempt by the academy to reign in and disseminate an "official verse cultural" (is this charles b's term for it?), and also to respond to the market shift for products (courses) more desirable /attractive to students. theoretically, an established writer brings prestige and attracts talented students; but more often, a little-known writer with an m.f.a. and several books gets hired to teach (scare quotes? can the writing of poetry/drama/fiction be taught?) writing to students who will be awarded an m.f.a. publish several books and hope one day to land a writer-in-residence post themselves. t. ______________________________________________ | Rien n'aura eu lieu que le lieu | | Nothing will have taken place but the place | | - Mallarme - | ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:58:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: teaching good/bad writing: good/bad? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thomas M. Orange wrote: > > hi folks, > > i hear another topic rumbling in the distance. i'm curious to hear what > people think about teaching and awarding degrees in creative writing at > the university. i've heard it argued (convincingly to my mind) as (yet) > a(nother) attempt by the academy to reign in and disseminate an "official > verse cultural" (is this charles b's term for it?), and also to respond to > the market shift for products (courses) more desirable /attractive to > students. theoretically, an established writer brings prestige and > attracts talented students; but more often, a little-known writer with an > m.f.a. and several books gets hired to teach (scare quotes? can the > writing of poetry/drama/fiction be taught?) writing to students who will > be awarded an m.f.a. publish several books and hope one day to land a > writer-in-residence post themselves. > > t. tom -- that's been going on for a half century in US hackademia -- one way into is through Jed Rasula's THE AMERICAN POETRY WAX MUSEUM. -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- "A book has to be the axe for the frozen sea inside us. This I believe." (Kafka, Letter to Oskar Pollack 27 Jan 1904) ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:15:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... Chris, welcome back-- I don't care if somebody used the prayers for the school idea. I hope they didn't steal the title too though. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:21:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: teaching good/bad writing: good/bad? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thomas, the teaching of creative writing in the (u.s.) university goes back decades, as i'm sure you know... i mean, creative writing has an institutional history, like technical writing, say... and sometimes it's surprising to see how such fields were initially envisioned... since i teach, i'm prone to making statements re creative writing from this orientation, esp. b/c i know of *no* writers who aren't initially exposed to 'creative writing' through the educational system (whether in grade school, in the form of ostensibly innocent notions of poetry, or college-level writing courses)... so i'm always hankering to find a better way to teach creative writing, to counter the more insidious uses of this curricular slot (so to speak) to generate its own internally pseudo-consistent industry... seems to me much can be done under the auspices of "creative writing" that generally isn't done... and every time i see the words "national publication required" (and equivalents) in ads for creative writing positions my stomach hurts---i see this as catering to the notion of visiting talents who by their sheer presence (which relates to a telos of presence in general) will somehow provoke more or better learning... if this latter isn't simply a dodge, i mean, that obscures the very real institutional influence that talent, perceived as such, can wield... anyway... one thing to note up-front: that talk about creative writing usually falters on the line between the history of writing instruction (that's us academic-professionals) and the history of writing as such (that's us poets who see ourselves as poets, but other writers around here too of course, who may or may not appreciate the term "professional")... i should have writ "histories" in both cases, as these relate to the various genres... depending on how one situates oneself as a writer, one will likely draw on a composite of such histories... personally, i wouldn't ignore either, anymore than i would throw away the tag 'professional' (which latter could stand some serious leftist rehab)... but anyway, you get my point---i think that intervening in the (institutional & personal) gap that tends to separate these two histories may be a way to begin rethinking creative writing... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:17:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: half-Danes of the Western world, Unite MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit maria damon wrote: > > pierre, i dont know anything about danish high culture so i cant help you (ask > about food, cross-stitching or farm animals, though) --but i didn't realize > wolfli was a poet too. can u post a small sample of his writings, as well as > tell us how to get hold of it --is it translated?--md > Maria -- for sample poems check Rothenberg/Joris POEMS FOR THE MILLENNIUM, p. 80 ff. In our commentary we quote Elka Spoerri as saying: "... With the exception of a few extracts his extensive narrative work has remained unknown. The narrative work is composed of 44 illustrated books (20,000 pages, with over 1400 drawings and over 1500 collages) with epic texts, dialect poems, sound poems and musical compositions. ..." Very little has been translated into English -- Pierre -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (510) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/joris/ http://www.albany.edu/~tm0900/nomad.html ---------------------------------------------------------------- "A book has to be the axe for the frozen sea inside us. This I believe." (Kafka, Letter to Oskar Pollack 27 Jan 1904) ========================================= ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Comments: To: amato MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I'm getting in on this thread a little late, but can't resist tossing in my two cents. I've seen all the films Tom mentions and think they are great. esp. the Ford films (no one has ever married German expressionism to Western landscape the way he has, above all in "Clementine"). Glad to see others mention Peckinpah and Leone, and that Joe mentioned the great Anthony Mann, who used Jimmy Stewart as well as any director with the exception of Hitchcock in films like "The Naked Spur" & "The Far Country." Thanks Kali, for mentioning Slotkin's _Gunfighter Nation_. Great book, although his two earlier ones in the series in my opinion are even better: "Regeneration Through Violence_, and _The Fatal Environment_. I'm using all three to support arguments in a paper I'm working on about the function of the Mexican border in Peckinpah's "Wild Bunch," "Alfredo Garcia," and "Major Dundee" (Peckinpah's equivalent of Welles's "Chimes at Midnight" and "Othello" - i.e. a mutilated masterpiece). I'm also thinking of throwing "The Professionals" into the mix (a film wholly unmarred by Richard Brooks' usual affectations and pretentiousness) as well as Robert Aldrich's way cool "Vera Cruz," with Gary Cooper & Burt Lancaster, a film that in 1954 foreshadowed Peckinpah & Leone and effectively undercut the mythological style of Ford et al. with its sharp critique of heroism and its cynical humor. I've always thought "Shane" grossly overrated though George Stevens has a marvellous eye to be sure. Ditto for "High Noon." I prefer the Hawksian riposte of "Rio Bravo." And "Butch Cassidy" is just for me, egregious beyond belief, a thoroughly denatured Western (Sorry Joe). Compared to "The Wild Bunch" which was released the same year - well there is no comparison. Wm. Goldman raises my hackles while George Roy Hill got all the credit for the famous cliff jumping scene that was taken shot for shot from Henry Hathaway's much better 1939 "Jesse James" with Hank Fonda & Tyrone Power. (I suspect Hathaway prob. stole it himself from some film in the silent era when stunt doubles were routinely killed performing outrageous stunts). Hill hardly strikes me as the postmodernist type (though his "Slaughterhouse 5" is quite good). As for Wyatt Earp, I'd take "Tombstone" over the Costner pic any day. I had occasion while in Hollywood to read an unpublished MS. by Earp scholar Glenn Boyer out of Univ. of Tuscon I think and though the film is fairly authentic in all the details in the end it seemed nothing but details - I found it unbearably tedious. Ford had the right idea - "print the legend." Or if you're Leone & Peckinpah, deconstruct it. Back to the leftovers, Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: amato To: POETICS Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Date: Friday, November 29, 1996 9:31AM i wouldn't even know where to start re westerns, i've seen so many of 'em... so this will be FUN (thanx tom!)... *my darling clementine*, like ron sez, is just beautiful in terms of its staging, use of landscape, incredible b & w cinematography (i happen to like the acting lots too, but that's another story)... you can watch it with the volume OFF---no shit... sergio leone surely learned from john ford (in addition to kurosawa, i mean, who as all film buffs know learned from american westerns that themselves imitated ETC.)... i don't have that wayne allergy ron speaks of---i'll go for *the searchers* as his and director ford's best western (wayne was so infuriating during the late sixties and early seventies i can understand being allergic, ron)... i've always loved *the good, the bad, and the ugly*, to add to kali's *once upon a time in the west* as my two favorite leone westerns (and kali---i just LOVE lee marvin's last line from *the professionals*!)... and we may as well throw the recent (kevin costner) *wyatt earp* (not bad, finally) up against *tombstone*, and throw in the older *gunfight at the ok corral* too (given this latter's remarkable cast, and that john sturges directed, same guy who did *the magnificent seven*---which latter i'm addicted to)... and what about *the ox-bow incident*---a horse opera that's really about lynching?... or *high noon*, or *the gunfighter*, or *duel in the sun*, or *one-eyed jacks*, or *the big country*, or *red river*, or *shane*, or *destry rides again* (the first destry), or *valdez is coming*, or *little big man*, or *will penny*, or *high plains drifter*, or *butch cassidy and the sundance kid*--- and how bout the early west, something like (the newest of FOUR versions, with daniel day-lewis) *the last of the mohicans*?--- and how much do we want to bend the genre? b/c *dirty harry* is clearly a cowboy-cop flick (which eastwood and don siegel played with three years ealier in *coogan's bluff*)--- and what about the silent era, from *the great train robbery* to harry carey's one- reelers to tom mix and william s. hart and hoot gibson and---? b/c the west played a key role here, before sound, in terms of landscape and motif and early film 'language'---and around, say, 1915, the west was still what many folks think of as the west--- but here's three favorites from that genre that haven't made it yet to anybody's list... anybody ever seen *the ballad of cable hogue*, sam peckinpah's one time surrealist western venture (with jason robards and stella stevens)?... and how bout (and here i'm picking my favorite from a half-dozen, on-location anthony mann gems) *the naked spur* (an older, more grizzled james stewart, with robert ryan and janet leigh)... and what about, say, *johnny guitar*---sure to please those of you yearning for a postmodern retrospective (leonard maltin always notes that the plot from this flick was lifted for leone's *once upon a time*)... mercedes mccambridge and joan crawford are remarkable... and how bout one i haven't seen (been scouring the video stores for same), jim jarmusch's *dead man*, with johnny depp (playing an accountant from cleveland name of 'william blake'), gary farmer (as a native american outcast name of 'nobody'), gabriel byrne, lance henriksen, robert mitchum (yeah---short on women folk, like so many westerns (save for mebbe *westward the women* or *hannie caulder*))... sounds like a winner, but i'll have to wait to see... mebbe somebody out there has caught it, wonderin what you think if so... and to extrapolate from ron's remarks re tv westerns: for me, early, b & w tv IS the west... from *the twilight zone* to *lost in space* to *bonanza*, so much of it utilizes western (or west coast) landscapes that when i first actually SAW the west (being from upstate ny originally), i felt like i was watching tv... joe, stuffed with stuffing ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:09:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: taste, judgment, etc... In-Reply-To: <32a044f77410002@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maria -- As a half-Dane I never made it more than half-way to Solvang (this keyboard doesn't have the diacritical mark that should appear over that name!) -- but my parents visited there when they visited me in L.A. and had a grand time -- A more enjoyable experience at the PAMLA conference came when a woman approached me after reading my name badge and asked, "Danish?" The only other person to immediately ID the name's origins had been Elizabeth Bishop some twenty years back -- This woman turned out to be the only professor of Danish at the conference -- As to the _Diacritics_ issue and the editing thereof -- I won't say a great deal, as I'm grateful to be the issue -- but you'll appreciate this part of the story -- I received a long-distance phone call from the editor of the special issue, who explained that he was putting together this special issue as a follow-up to a conference he had helped organize -- and he hoped I might have an essay already written of the sort he needed to round out the issue -- Mind you, I had not been invited to, or even informed of, the conference -- but he sure wanted an essay (grateful to be _in_ the issue -- I'm not, despite my evident ego in such postings as this, the issue) I've been to Minneapolis and don't share your mother's reaction -- I find the appearance of white folk infinitely interesting -- Maybe it's the way they look at me? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:17:19 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:36 AM 11/30/96, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >As for Wyatt Earp, I'd take "Tombstone" over the Costner pic any day. >[...] though the film is fairly authentic >in all the details in the end it seemed nothing but details - I found it >unbearably tedious. [....] George Roy Hill got all the credit for the >famous cliff jumping scene [in "Butch Cassidy"] that was taken shot for >shot from Henry >Hathaway's much better 1939 "Jesse James" with Hank Fonda & Tyrone Power. >[...] Hill >hardly strikes me as the postmodernist type (though his "Slaughterhouse 5" >is quite good). Pat, this is Kevin Killian. You are right about "Wyatt Earp" with Kevin Costner but about George Roy Hill you are tragically wrong! He after all is the man who made "Thoroughly Modern Millie," not a western, but an *unmutilated masterpiece* on the order of Welles' "Citizen Kane," however, many do not care for it at all, or so I've found. But what it does not say about gender relations, modernism and post modernism no one in the last 30 years has said either. Robert van Hallberg, you should be planning a special issue (double issue) of "M/M" around this film's upcoming 30th anniversary. As for "The Professionals" and "Once upon a Time in the West," hello-o! Why has no one mentioned that the latter is a kind of sequel to or loose remake of the former, each based upon the *captivity narrative* of Claudia Cardinale, the creative genius behind both? "Once upon a Time in the West" also benefits from that wonderful music with those same 3 themes (by Morricone?) played over and over again in different combinations. I don't know what they're called, but I always think of them as, "Claudia--Unhappy," "Claudia--Hope of Freedom," and "Claudia--Resolute" and I'm sure others do too. Finally, must acknowledge the ingenious back-story plot of "Once upon a Time in the West" written by Dario Argento and Bernardo Bertolucci, tho' the flashback lynching sequence late in the film, which explains all the actions of the little boy who improbably grows up to be Charles Bronson, must have been invented by Argento alone. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 09:20:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Morricone Themes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Listen to Zorn's _The Big Gundown_ while reading these hitching posts -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: westerns Comments: To: Kali Tal MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kali, For that matter, Ford's "Fort Apache" (1948? - one of my faves) cld. also be considered as a Viet Nam war movie. Slotkin actually thinks that Ford was making a statement about Douglas Mac Arthur, under whom he served. Ironically, the same MacArthur who advised JFK to "avoid a land war in Asia." Which is to say, "every war creates its own cinematic precursors"? This is Slotkin's thesis - that the ideology which made Vietnam possible was already well in place by the 19th Century and owes its formation to initial European contact with Native Americans, as expressed in captivity narratives by people like Mary Rowlandson,etc. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Kali Tal To: POETICS Subject: Re: westerns Date: Thursday, November 28, 1996 11:46AM >As a matter of curiosity, on the subject of the Western as poetic act, >how many have seen > >The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance? >The Shootist >The Searchers >My Darling Clementine >Tombstone I've seen all but _My Darling Clementine_. But you've left out _Once Upon A Time in the West_, in my opinion the most grandly poetic Western of all. And _The Professionals_. And, of course, _The Magnificent Seven_ (which might be more operatic, come to think of it). But, of course, once we start talking about film as "poetic act," we begin to lose the distinctiveness of poetry as poetic act. I count _The Searchers_ as a Viet Nam war movie (along with _The Professionals_, _Ulzana's Raid_ and _The Wild Bunch_). Check out Richard Slotkin's _Gunfighter Nation_ for an interesting analysis all four films.... Kali Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 kali.tal@yale.edu Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:36:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Comments: To: dbkk MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT My dear Kevin, I don't mind in the least being "tragically wrong" - one gets used to it after a while, you know. I don't mind GRH so much as I dislike "Butch Cassidy." Haven't seen "Millie" though. Is that with Julie Andrews & Rock Hudson? I may have seen part of it - can't recall. Great point about captivity narratives in "Professionals" & "Once Upon A Time." Which is also the theme of "The Searchers." Patrick ---------- From: dbkk To: POETICS Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Date: Saturday, November 30, 1996 11:21AM At 10:36 AM 11/30/96, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >As for Wyatt Earp, I'd take "Tombstone" over the Costner pic any day. >[...] though the film is fairly authentic >in all the details in the end it seemed nothing but details - I found it >unbearably tedious. [....] George Roy Hill got all the credit for the >famous cliff jumping scene [in "Butch Cassidy"] that was taken shot for >shot from Henry >Hathaway's much better 1939 "Jesse James" with Hank Fonda & Tyrone Power. >[...] Hill >hardly strikes me as the postmodernist type (though his "Slaughterhouse 5" >is quite good). Pat, this is Kevin Killian. You are right about "Wyatt Earp" with Kevin Costner but about George Roy Hill you are tragically wrong! He after all is the man who made "Thoroughly Modern Millie," not a western, but an *unmutilated masterpiece* on the order of Welles' "Citizen Kane," however, many do not care for it at all, or so I've found. But what it does not say about gender relations, modernism and post modernism no one in the last 30 years has said either. Robert van Hallberg, you should be planning a special issue (double issue) of "M/M" around this film's upcoming 30th anniversary. As for "The Professionals" and "Once upon a Time in the West," hello-o! Why has no one mentioned that the latter is a kind of sequel to or loose remake of the former, each based upon the *captivity narrative* of Claudia Cardinale, the creative genius behind both? "Once upon a Time in the West" also benefits from that wonderful music with those same 3 themes (by Morricone?) played over and over again in different combinations. I don't know what they're called, but I always think of them as, "Claudia--Unhappy," "Claudia--Hope of Freedom," and "Claudia--Resolute" and I'm sure others do too. Finally, must acknowledge the ingenious back-story plot of "Once upon a Time in the West" written by Dario Argento and Bernardo Bertolucci, tho' the flashback lynching sequence late in the film, which explains all the actions of the little boy who improbably grows up to be Charles Bronson, must have been invented by Argento alone. Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 11:53:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" patrick, loved *vera cruz* ever since i was a kid!... always identified with burt's grinning opportunism... we can disagree about *butch cassidy & the sundance kid*, that's ok!... but consider that horseback scene that lasts nearly 25 minutes---with butch & sundance being chased by the hired guns... very few scenes like it in western cinema that maintain that intensity, and it really conveys a sense of terrain (speaking of which, excellent cinematography)... i mself do enjoy the mock-heroic aspects of the flick (again, the humor), and the way it anachronistically calls attention to its cinematic devices... love the use of pop music too---only a few aspects of that film seem dated to me in a bad way, and these have to do with what was hip in 69, so i'll cut my nostalgia some slack!... but i mean, that entire sequence with strother martin is so memorable, no?... as to comparing with peckinpah's *wild bunch* (precursor to cormak mccarthy's _blood meridian_), i dunno---peckinpah's flick is astounding in so many ways, but there are moments too where peckinpah seems to indulge himself in the seriousness of his incredibly macho vision, which in so many ways butch & sundance undercuts... i saw an interview on tv with ernest borgnine a while back, who explained that at the point in the flick where he confesses that he wouldn't ride with anybody other than holden (or some such), he settled back and waited for the cut, and it took a while before he heard a faint "cut" uttered from peckinpah, who was sobbing at the male bonding of it all... seems to me that summarizes the problem with peckinpah's passion rather neatly... but the film, esp. having seen it recently restored on the big screen, is nonetheless amazing, yes, incl. the performances... i like kevin's reading of claudia---i was feeling remiss mself for not mentioning her!... yeah---costner's earp is pretty boring... i own a copy of *tombstone*, i liked it that much... but although i find costner at times the "bland megalomaniac" (i think it was) pauline kael called him (with re to *dances with wolves*) i was still impressed by his attention to detail... and hey, i've always preferred *eldorado* to its predecessor *rio bravo*---i think mitchum's performance in the former is a real hoot, and again---much more lighthearted than dino's more sobering drinking problem... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:00:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" and while we're at it, what about some of the more blatantly comic westerns, such as the james garner pieces, *support your local sheriff!*, *support your local gunfighter*, (w/elam's final crack) and *skin game* (which was serious too)... or---dare i mention them?---the sinatra westerns, *4 for texas* and *dirty dingus magee*... seems like tv western and cinema come together here... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:10:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Burt Bacharach's Western music Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" People in San Francisco who still watch "Butch Cassidy" and "The Man who Shot Liberty Valance" do so to enjoy the marvelous themes by Burt Bacharach for each picture. On the face of it, who would have thought to hire BB to write theme songs for any Western? And yet that is the genius of the Hollywood system. When I was a little boy my class was actually watching "Liberty Valance" when the lights came on and this teacher came in and said President Kennedy had been shot. So ever since then I have never been able to hear that menacing, high-hat staccato phrase, "who shot" (if any of you recall this tune you will be nodding in agreement) without confusing myself that this was a film about Lee Harvey Oswald. Some of my friends have argued that the films "Casino Royale," "A House is Not a Home," "Lost Horizon," and even "The April Fools" contain more quintessential Bacharach music, but I always hold out for the Westerns. -- Kevin K. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 10:26:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: George Oppen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" But enough about Westerns (from me.... Kevin Killian). Here in San Francisco we are looking forward to the arrival of Peter and Meredith Quartermain later this week. Meredith Quartermain will be reading her poetry, with David Bromige, at Canessa Park on Sunday December 8, at 3:00 p.m. Peter Q. will give the 11th annual "George Oppen Lecture on the 20th Century Poetics" at the First Unitarian Church on Thursday, December 5, at 7:30 p.m. This is a project of the Poetry Center of San Francisco State University. These lectures do not have to be specifically on Oppen's work, tho' many have in the past, and to celebrate this occasion, Dodie Bellamy and I have made a special issue of our monthly magazine, "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" which features four (4) unpublished letters by Oppen, as well as new work by Craig Brock (a San Francisco poet who's kind of the Stevie Smith of AIDS issues), Lawrence Braithwaite (also from B.C., Braithwaite is the young, Black, gay, terrifically talented novelist who wrote last year's incredible novel "Wigger") and by Barbara Guest, the poet and actress. Her piece is called "Hieroglyph Acres." So come one and all to these events, say you saw this post and get a free copy of "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" #63 (December, 1996). More later. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:34:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah In-Reply-To: <199611291221.EAA06683@dfw-ix11.ix.netcom.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Samuel Fuller: I Shot Jesse James (an entire film of claustrophobic closeups), Forty Guns (frequently quoted by M. Godard). Speaking of John Wayne--remember the scene in The Sons of Katie Elder in which Dennis Hopper dies in his arms? Dennis is one of the great Western directors/actors if you think of his "western state of mind" use of characters in relation to landscapes: Easy Rider, Out of the Blue, The Last Movie. As actor--Giant, Katie Elder, The American Friend. The latest "spaghetti Western": Tampopo From the Sixties: the Ringo series. El Topo. The films of Glauber Rocha. Susan Smith Nash has a great essay on The Misfits--psychology and landscape--in My Love is Apocalypse and Rhinestones. The soundtrack to Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. (esp. Cantina Theme.) The Left Handed Gun. The ongoing seires of Spaghetti Western soundtracks from RCA Japan. What ever happened to Sky King? Palladin? James Cruze's Sutter's Gold from Cendrars . . .(Cruze made great silent westerns . . . ) A modern Western: Free Leonard Pelltier! --dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:34:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: maria damon Subject: Re: George Oppen hiya kev --i'm sure this has come up before, but who published that lawrence braithwaite novel wigger.--maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:15:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: teaching good/bad writing: good/bad? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't think my experience is as unique as you think. I was exposed to creative writing some time ago. The idea that there was a write way to right was one of my reasons for leaving academia. It has only been recently that I have begun writing again. The idea of courses raises for me the spectres of "good"/"bad" and a single correct upper middle class media culture. <><>shiver><>< tom bell At 10:21 AM 11/30/96 -0600, amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU wrote: >thomas, the teaching of creative writing in the (u.s.) university goes back >decades, as i'm sure you know... i mean, creative writing has an >institutional history, like technical writing, say... and sometimes it's >surprising to see how such fields were initially envisioned... > >since i teach, i'm prone to making statements re creative writing from this >orientation, esp. b/c i know of *no* writers who aren't initially exposed >to 'creative writing' through the educational system (whether in grade >school, in the form of ostensibly innocent notions of poetry, or >college-level writing courses)... so i'm always hankering to find a better >way to teach creative writing, to counter the more insidious uses of this >curricular slot (so to speak) to generate its own internally >pseudo-consistent industry... seems to me much can be done under the >auspices of "creative writing" that generally isn't done... > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 13:11:42 MST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah >and while we're at it, what about some of the more blatantly comic >westerns, such as the james garner pieces, *support your local sheriff!*, >*support your local gunfighter*, (w/elam's final crack) and *skin game* >(which was serious too)... or---dare i mention them?---the sinatra >westerns, *4 for texas* and *dirty dingus magee*... seems like tv western >and cinema come together here... _skin game_ was indeed both comic and serious, a "civil rights" western, just like the awful _buffalo soldiers_ (originally titled _soul soldiers_) which starred raeffer johnson, the great decathalon man. there was a genre of black westerns which ranged from grade c flicks (like _joshua_, which starred fred williamson, of _hell up in harlem_ fame) to more serious studies like _buck and the preacher_ (sidney poitier and harry belafonte). woody strode was featured in many of these "civil rights" westerns (_the professionals_ can be counted among them, as well as being counted as a viet nam war film). it's an ongoing tradition--just take a look at the very interesting _posse_ (directed by mario van peebles) which is framed by woody strode, who tells a tale that features both contemporary rappers (big daddy kane), and blaxploitation stars (isaac hayes, pam grier). poetry, indeed. kali Kali Tal Sixties Project & Viet Nam Generation, Inc. PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746 kali.tal@yale.edu Sixties Project: http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 12:18:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Burt Bacharach's Western music Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Gene Pitney is god! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 14:36:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: amato@CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: M/M & westerns, deah Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" kali, yeah, i thought van peebles' *posse* was interesting in this regard too... not to be, CAN'T be confused with kirk douglas in the earlier (1975) *posse*... hey, didn't van peebles do that newer soi-disant women's western starring drew barrymore/andie macdowell/madeleine stowe/mary stuart masterson?... can't say much for this latter... to add to the list david composed, i'd throw in kirk's *lonely are the brave* (one of my favorite contemp. westerns, better than, say, redford in *the electric horseman*)... and *there was a crooked man* (with fonda)... and kirk's self-spoof in *the villain* (don't stay up for this one)... and a personal favorite, *hombre* with newman... and if we're talking humor, how could i NOT mention lee marvin in *cat ballou*?!... as to hopper, yeah, he was in SO many westerns, it really is a 'theme' of his... and then there's *the wild wild west* to consider (at least, this was my favorite tv show as a fifteen-year old james bond addict)... and the new made-fer-tv 'realist' westerns, like *conagher* (w/sam elliot and katherine ross)... what a 'genre'!... joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 17:13:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kenneth Goldsmith Subject: A Special Book Offer from The Figures Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Folks, Geoffrey Young of The Figures has asked me to pass this special book offer along. However, he has no E-Mail yet, so S-Mail or call him. ******************************** The Figures 5 Castle Hill Ave. Great Barrington, MA 01230 413-528-2552 ******************************** The Figures proudly announces the publication of three new limited edition books, for a one-time only three-fer deal. Rather than pay $28, this offer urges you to snatch them up while you still can, for twenty bucks, which includes postage. (Single copies available at list price, postage as per above.) _____________________________________________________________ Tilt, 75 prose poems by Gillian McCain, with cover painting by Trevor Winkfield, 96 pages, 5 1/2 x 8" $10.00 (One of ten copies signed & numbered is $20) Gillian McCain is the former Program Coordinator of The Poetry Project at St. Mark's in Manhattan. As Harry Mathews says about the author of Tilt, she "takes us on high-velocity spins to the four corners of what we thought was a familiar world." Her lines are smart bombs that go off: "My lap crawled in places I didn't even know existed. Aruba, for instance." What is revealed in these poems, each titled with a single word, is a verbally incisive, resigned yet defiant, ambitious yet humorous portrait of the contemporary woman. McCain's works are, in the words of John Ashbery, "like urgent telegrams from next door, or oddly but brilliantly cropped snapshots of the life that is going by." Besides Tilt, Gillian McCain is the co-author (with Legs McNeil) of the recently published Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk, Grove Press. _____________________________________________________________ Arts & Letters, 16 prose poems by Michael Friedman, with 16 drawings by Duncan Hannah, 40 pages, 6 x 7 1/2" $10.00 (signed edition is $20) Arts & Letters is a true collaboration; its poems and drawings derive from and support each other. If Michael Friedman's theme is "flux in a wild finesse," as David Shapiro as written, "his generally immaculate snaps and subtle caresses are formal, private, and discrete," (in the words of Stephen Rodefer). In Duncan Hannah, who shows his work at Tibor de Nagy Gallery in NYC, he has perhaps the ideal artist to work with, since Hannah's abiding subject is affinity. "He understands how great a distance separates him from the past he has chosen as his age of mythic origins. This understanding generates the melancholy of his art." Carter Ratcliff _____________________________________________________________ Pockets of Wheat, Geoffrey Young, illustrations by James Sienna 4 1/4 x 6 1/2" $8.00 (signed edition is $16) How many words, or lines, or ideas does a poem require? How much music? The author of Subject to Fits and Rocks and Deals, Geoffrey Young keeps his answers to a not inarticulate minimum. A part-time gallerist, teacher and art-consultant, as editor of The Figures, Young has published more than eighty books of poetry, fiction, and art criticism, since 1975. Thirty-nine year old James Siena is a New York artist whose most recent work is presently on view at Pierogi 2000 in Brooklyn. In the spring of 1997 he will exhibit new work at Cristinrose Gallery, in Soho. ******************************************* END OF SPECIAL OFFER ******************************************* COMING SOON FROM THE FIGURES _____________________________________________________________ No. 111 2.7.93-10.20.96, Kenneth Goldsmith, 620 pages, 5 1/2 x 8 1/4" $17.50 (February 1997 release) The Borscht belt meets concept art in this delirious digest of obsessive gaiety, this useless collection of perishable information, this wily catalog of everyday life, this alphabetic bestiary of the ribs, joints, sinews., and bones of language's alluring lore. Kenneth Goldsmith has written what could be the longest, and maybe the last, list poem of the 20th Century. On the way, he has reinvented prosody-counting by 1, 2s, 3s, and up-as he inventories the roaring rush of rippling, or is it ripping?, words: inchoate yet coalescing, a fractal romp on just this side of virtual reality. -Charles Bernstein _________________________________________________________ New & Recent Work from THE FIGURES _____________________________________________________ "Arts & Letters" poems Michael Friedman drawings Duncan Hannah 40 pp $10 "Tilt" prose poems Gillian McCain cover Trevor Winkfield 96 pp $10 "Pockets of Wheat" poems Geoffrey Young drawings James Siena 48 pp $8 "No. 111 2.7.93-10.20.96" Kenneth Goldsmith, 620 pages pp. $17.50 "False Memory" poems Tony Lopez cover Charles LeDray 40 pp $6 "Swoon Rocket" poems Bill Luoma cover Hubble Space 28 pp $6 "Present Tense" poem Stephen Ratcliffe cover Suzanne McClelland 104 pp $12 "For Kurt Cobain" poem Clark Coolidge cover Celia Coolidge 10 pp $5 "Interferon" poems Michael Gizzi cover Win Knowlton 24 pp $5 "Alone With The Moon" poems Musa McKim drawings Philip Guston 140 pp $12 "The Champ poem Kenward Elmslie" drawings Joe Brainard 80 pp $12 "Columns and Catalogues" essays Peter Schjeldahl 240 pp $15 _____________________________________________________________ The Figures 5 Castle Hill Ave. Great Barrington, MA 01230 413-528-2552 (Sorry folks, no Email yet...) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:04:48 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: George Oppen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" don't backchannel this info - i would like to know too please, dan At 12:34 PM 11/30/96 -0600, you wrote: >hiya kev --i'm sure this has come up before, but who published that lawrence >braithwaite novel wigger.--maria d > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 19:11:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Aldon L. Nielsen" Subject: Re: Burt Bacharach's Western music In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kevin -- For years I thought that Gene Pitney and Lee Harvey Oswald were the same person -- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 30 Nov 1996 18:25:25 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabrielle Welford Subject: Radio B92 Apel (fwd) Comments: To: mot-l Comments: cc: iww , poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 27 Nov 1996 17:20:53 -0800 From: Serbian Information Initiative >From: Veran Matic >Subject: Radio B-92 Apel > > >Radio B92 from Belgrade - Press Release > > > Radio B92 and its programme were cut off the air for four times >today (Nov 27) during its regular reporting on the anti-government >demonstrations in Belgrade, which last for several days now. > > Demonstrations are being organised by the democratic opposition, >dissatisfied with the results on local elections being cancelled by the >regime. The regime is trying to prevent its electoral defeat in major >cities of Serbia - which is the first factual defeat of the Slobodan >Milosevic's regime since 1987. > > There is more than 100,000 demonstrators marching down the >downtown streets of Belgrade every day. The Belgrade University with its >50,000 students is on strike, demanding the acknowledgement of the >results achieved by the opposition. > > Radio B92 is a single independent electronic medium in Belgrade >which is continually reporting on actual events, and it operates for 7 >years now without an official licence. Due to its anti-war engagement and >a variety of highly successful projects in the domain of culture and >communications, B92 was presented the CPJ 1993. award. > > The transmitter which Radio B92 uses to broadcast its programme is >situated among the transmitters owned by the state and is therefore >inaccessible to our technicians who might otherwise check whether a >misoperation was at stake or an intended interruption. Our experts claim >that an intended interruption IS in question. These incidents were >reported to Aleksandar Tijanic, Serbian Minister of Information who claims >not to have any kind of connection with these latest developments. > > It is obvious that this is a direct threat and an introduction to >a final ban of the B92. This Radio has so far been the best, most reliable >and professional source of information for both the citizens of Belgrade >and foreign correspondents based in FR Yugoslavia. Should it be banned, >this would mean a huge blow for democratic processes in Serbia and an >obvious undermining of all the principles that the Dayton Agreement >stands for. > > Radio B92 is in danger! > Warn the public on these facts and launch a protest with the Serbian >regime aimed to protecting the single left independent voice in Belgrade. > > > In this very moment only a minor part of Belgrade can tune to >Radio B92. > > > >Veran Matic >Editor in-Chief > > > >-- >Veran Matic, Editor in Chief tel: +381-11-322-9922 >Radio B92, Belgrade, Yugoslavia fax: +381-11-324-8075 > > Radio B92 Official Web Site --- http://www.opennet.org/ PS. Radio B92 mirrors are at: http://www.siicom.com/odrazb/ and http://www.siicom.com/b92/ --- from list postcolonial@lists.village.virginia.edu --