========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 08:50:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: >I just received a request for a review copy of Rochelle Owens' book from >"S.V. Caldwell, Ph.D., Editor" of the Sandia Review of Books in >Albuquerque. Regular letterhead, no phone number. The mag isn't listed in >CLMP or Dustbooks, and I suspect that it's a phoney. This happened to me >once before, with another outfit that turned out to be a scam to build a >personal library for free. Has anybody out there heard of Sandia or its editor? For what it's worth, there are no records for a _Sandia Review of Books_ in either the OCLC or RLIN databases, two huge bibliographic utilities containing information on the holdings of literally thousands of US and non-US libraries. This doesn't constitute a definitive answer, of course -- there are plenty of micromags and fanzines that almost no libraries acquire -- but before sending a copy of the book, you could I suppose request a sample copy of the journal. -- FM ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:39:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: The Calculation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Calculation I compose a piece about Shakespeare How he masqued the crimes of Kings How murder can be made to seem accident In somewhat the manner of Shakespeare I add that this fragment was found just now In a tunnel in a college in Paris And my thigh cramps up my leg shoots out And the screen goes dark lights up goes dark It seems reasonable to suppose my leg cramp Drove my foot onto the powerbar And paranoid to suppose anything else Though there are many ways now to administer Pain or death undetectable ways To stage an accident to do what an accident fails to It must appear unjusifiably self-centered To suppose anything under the appearances To overlook the dissatisfaction I was feeling With my approach to this large & chancy theme So that my psychology if not mere chance also Rendered somatic account for the blank drawn When I try to retrieve the draft and feel relief And of course the times we live in explain it all ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 13:42:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Red Slider Subject: Re: The Calculation David wrote: The Calculation I compose a piece about Shakespeare How he masqued the crimes of Kings How murder can be made to seem accident In somewhat the manner of Shakespeare I add that this fragment was found just now In a tunnel in a college in Paris And my thigh cramps up my leg shoots out And the screen goes dark lights up goes dark It seems reasonable to suppose my leg cramp Drove my foot onto the powerbar And paranoid to suppose anything else Though there are many ways now to administer Pain or death undetectable ways To stage an accident to do what an accident fails to It must appear unjusifiably self-centered To suppose anything under the appearances To overlook the dissatisfaction I was feeling With my approach to this large & chancy theme So that my psychology if not mere chance also Rendered somatic account for the blank drawn When I try to retrieve the draft and feel relief And of course the times we live in explain it all Red writes: Thanx for the reminder - got in an argument last night with the glued-to-TV bunch about the nature of what was being witnessed, but couldn't grab the burr under my saddle. No doubt about it, the car was driving through a rat's ass - a loaded one at that. Just so happens a bright light got turned out halfway through the tunnel - but then, not the first time that's happened, We've lost a lot of bright lights in the rat's ass. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 17:51:01 -0700 Reply-To: dean@w-link.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dean A. Brink" Subject: Re: JavaPoetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you David and Red for nice and helpful comments on my Javanized (reJavanated) verse. dean > "Men with Coins" > http://www.w-link.net/~dean/JavaPoetry/mencoins.html dean brink EALC/UChicago dean@w-link.net interpoetics - poetry of Asia and the Pacific Rim www.w-link.net/~dean/interpoetics/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 20:31:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Dean Brink administers a rebuke, or a misplaced gratitude? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dean, I know nothing of yr "rejavanized" poetry. Could you be speaking sarcastically--was it something I was supposed to comment on, but failed to? If so, I must say that, like many on this list, I do not take it as my duty to respond to every thread, let alone every posting. If, on the other hand, some recent posting of mine struck you as responsive to a posting of yours, I can only say, "Not consciously," and ask you to be kind enough to re-post yr post, back-channel if you wish. Thank you. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:01:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Dean Brink administers a rebuke, or a misplaced gratitude? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT David Bromige strikes a note of question -- > Dean, I know nothing of yr "rejavanized" poetry. Could you be > speaking sarcastically--was it something I was supposed to comment > on, but failed to? If so, I must say that, like many on this list, I > do not take it as my duty to respond to every thread, let alone > every posting. If, on the other hand, some recent posting of mine > struck you as responsive to a posting of yours, I can only say, "Not > consciously," and ask you to be kind enough to re-post yr post, > back-channel if you wish. Thank you. David I think I can clarify this mystery, by noting that Dean's meaning was neither of the above-noted possibilities -- for the reasn that the "David" to whom he referred was not David Bromige but rather, the undersigned. I had, indeed, offered some comment regarding Dean's experimental use of Java-script (hence, the "reJavanated" et cet). For sake of balancing the slate, I, too, David, have occasionally looked with a start of apprehension at some Poetics posting that makes mention of David's comments -- but only for a split second; for it generally becomes clear that the David in question is you, rather than me. This seems to have been the rarer instance where the reverse situation proved in evidence. Perhaps someone will at some point make reference to the hymnist who is our namesake & prototype, and then we can both look befuddled in sync or in tandem . . . till then, yours, &c., David . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: thot on theroux and avant-garde Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don't think this made it. Sorry if it's a repeat. Came across the following today. Thought it was apposite to the recent flurries here re avant-garde, new directions and the Theroux/Ashberry businness. My reading is that language and, by context, poetry, is the "avant-garde", as per Plato, in its ability to let in what doesn't fit the rules, what is antithetical to historicism. Comments? tom bell "Language today is the enemy of the State and historicity because of its power to germinate systems antithetical to custom, since custom is partly dependent on coded laws. Historicism, while allying itself with writing, knowing its enlarged scalar power as a reread document, distrusts its projective character (translation: stability). Taking language truly seriously as a partly known, partly unknowable form of energy is instantly recognizable to historicism as an antithetical challenge." _ Piombino, "Writing and Experiencing" > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:50:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Interviews Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A general question to the list: What is the origin of the interview as a written, literary form? Does it predate radio/TV? Does it predate journalism? What/when was the first interview? Thanks Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 00:30:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Interviews In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Plato At 12:50 AM 9/2/97 -0600, you wrote: >A general question to the list: > >What is the origin of the interview as a written, literary form? Does it >predate radio/TV? Does it predate journalism? What/when was the first >interview? > >Thanks > >Hugh Steinberg > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 05:37:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Interviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hmm, on the more frivolous side, Plato innerviewing Socrates, & on the more serious side, Herodotus interviewing everyone to find out what really happened. Pierre Hugh Steinberg wrote: > A general question to the list: > > What is the origin of the interview as a written, literary form? Does > it > predate radio/TV? Does it predate journalism? What/when was the > first > interview? > > Thanks > > Hugh Steinberg -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I have never been able to tell a beginning from an end." — Georges Braque ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:08:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Interviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hugh Steinberg asks a general question to the list: > > What is the origin of the interview as a written, literary form? > Does it predate radio/TV? Does it predate journalism? What/when > was the first interview? Interesting question. Arguably, the form we know as the interview is at least *related* to the ancient form known as the dialogue. Sources in extant literature for the latter importantly include, of course, the Platonic (or Socratic) dialogues of ancient Greece, as well as the forest-dialogues (somewhat kindred, perhaps -- I don't know that I've seen the comparison explored) that form at least a major portion of the Sanskrit philosophical texts known as the Upanishads (also called the Vedanta -- the "end" or "completion" of the Vedas [scriptures]). This likely doesn't address your question directly, but possibly adds at least a glow of long-shadow context. Also somewhat anecdotally (or let's say tangentially), the form of the interview in the modern sense was very curiously pre-dated -- i.e., moved back in time -- by Meredith Monk in her film *Book of Days*, which included what amounted to t.v.-style interviews of various figures in a midaeval European city. Having reached the end of relevance, I await the "real answer" too. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:32:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Interviews MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hmm --Pierre Joris answers this electro-interview question thus: > Hmm, on the more frivolous side, Plato innerviewing Socrates, & on > the more serious side, Herodotus interviewing everyone to find out > what really happened. Pierre I wonder if the (or a) next step down the primrose path toward today's Charlie Rose & The Paris Review might be discerned (or discoverable) in the traditions (midaeval?) of courts of law, jurisprudence -- the interrogation, the interview of witnesses, and whatever may have antedated our contemporary formal traditions of direct & cross-examination, &c. Since the Writ of Habeas Corpus dates back to -- what? -- the 13th century or something, one wonders how far back one finds those (possibly related) formalities . . . (as is well known [sorta or not-quite relatedly], the Petrarchan sonnet is alleged to have origins in the formal jargon of law . . . ) happy near-autumn, d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 08:03:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: thot on theroux and avant-garde In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:17:22 -0500 from On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:17:22 -0500 Thomas Bell said: > >"Language today is the enemy of the State and historicity >because of its power to germinate systems antithetical to >custom, since custom is partly dependent on coded laws. >Historicism, while allying itself with writing, knowing its >enlarged scalar power as a reread document, distrusts its >projective character (translation: stability). Taking >language truly seriously as a partly known, partly >unknowable form of energy is instantly recognizable to >historicism as an antithetical challenge." _ Piombino, >"Writing and Experiencing" > Seems to me language-as-word is only one facet of a unitary/divided meta-language of the mind, which includes words, which includes "the State", etc. And setting up who's "the enemy" is the oldest chessgame in the world - nothing avant-garde about it. It's called "us vs. them" and it's about projecting psychological conflicts inherent in human nature. The idea that "writers" or "language artists" are avant-garde because they're breaking down stilted social codes ignores the fact that words and the book have been used as weapons of control, revenge, self- glorification, order, resentment, heirarchy, etc. etc. since the slaves of Assurbanipal or whoever started pressing wedges in the clay. Are these the historicists? They're the avant-garde in language tools. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 07:39:04 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: And of course the times we live in explain it all Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks, David, for the whole poem. It does catch something of the 'mood' many of us find ourselves within. What's been done with what happened in that tunnel since is beginning to get me down, anyway. On the other hand... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The blank page was merely an interval or an intrusion. We could not rescue it nor could we huddle, as if the page were big enough. Kathleen Fraser ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:58:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: publ. announcement Nedge #5 is now available. Issue contains several poetics listmembers, a number of RI poets, and a general theme (unbeknownst to the editors!) of "the earth". Poetry: Alan Elyshevitz, B.Z. Niditch, Laura Albrecht, Susan Wheeler, Eileen Myles, Mark Peters, Joel Lewis, Errol Miller, Leslie Scalapino, Robert Parham, Elliza McGrand, Paula Tatarunis, Alicia Vogl Saenz, Bob Heman, John Tagliabue, Edwin Honig, Karen Donovan, Joshua Beckman, Colin Esler, Janet Sullivan, Steve Leto, Roderick Potter, Paul Petrie. Extensive long-poem excerpts from Sherry Brennan and D.E. Steward. Fiction by Alfred Schwaid. Essays: "Fusion Poetry" by Michael Basinski; "Ars est celare artem" by Henry Gould. 96 pp. perfect bound. $6.00 payable to: The Poetry Mission, PO Box 2321, Providence, RI 02906. Or backchannel your request & I will bill you. Overseas orders - email and we'll work something out. Henry_Gould@brown.edu. Thanks, everyone - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 09:57:16 MST7MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: 'Pataphysics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Craig wrote: > Highest recommendation as well to their recent books of poetry, Bok's > "Crystalography" (Coach House Press, 1994) and Wershler-Henry's > "NICHOLODEON: a book of lowerglyphs" (Coach House Printing, 1997). Bok's "Crystallography: A Report on Lucid Writing", apparently a related project or the same project in a different form (so to speak), is also available for $5 or so through Damian Lopes' wonderful little press fingerprinting inkoperated: http://www.interlog.com/~dal/fi/ I just ordered a copy myself. Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:58:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: Another general question: paparazzi In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Now that we have an idea about who did the first interview, does anyone know who were the first paparazzi? I think most people first heard the term in La Dolce Vita. Timothy Materer, 228 Tate Hall, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:32:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: diacccritix In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" well folks i've at length had the time/space to explore the double issue of diacritix on poetry and community that i made such snotty remarks about (w/o having read it) earlier in the spring. i found it --esp the introduction by jonathan monroe, which i think i'll have occasion to assign in classes or draw from in my future endeavors --engaging and smart, tho' some of the articles were over my head. thanks for the opportunity to make up for earlier brattiness. maria d ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:16:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: my father among the earlier paparazzi? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My father, Harold Bromige, worked all his life for Gaumont-British Newsreels, from 1919 on. While I am sure he would be shocked at the conduct of today's scandalsheet photogs, he had many tales of "cutthroat" competition among the different newsreel companies, e.g. when one outfit had secured excloo rights to film a cricket match, the opposiiton rented second storey rooms facing their cameras & flashed mirrors into the lenses. My father filmed the-then Prince of Wales (later, the Duke of Windsor) coming unglued going over a jump in a steeplechase. The Prince came up to my father & sd, "I dont think the British public wish to see their future king falling off a horse. Kindly remove the film from yr camera." (I was only a boy when first told this story & exclaimed "You didnt Dad did you?" "A Royal request is an order" my father told me.) Thereafter, on several occasions when he had been assigned to film the Prince, my father was removed by security men & the driver of the G-B van had to shoot the footage instead. And once, in Paris, my father was arrested, plucked from his perch atop the G-B van, although never charged...but missed the parade in which the Prince was participating. I realize this-all is rather abt the victimization of a photog by royalty than vice versa. But there were other anecdotes he told, a la the mirror-flashing, of jostling competition among the companies. The ropes holding a balloon in place, from which one outfit was filming sports, were cut through and the thing set adrift--dangerous business. His boss once kidnapped Chaplin as a publicity stunt. Chaplin went along with it, i guess. But events were staged--"nonevents" in Boorstein's phrase, although done to tell the truth of an actual event. Or sometimes the truth. During WW2, competition among the companies ceased, resources were pooled, and propaganda became the order of the day. Defeats were turned into hardwon victories. But compared to "La Dolce Vita" et seq, pretty tame stuff. For a fictional antecedent, a memory occurs of "Citizen Kane," "found in love nest", was that the headline? Hoist by his own petard? Where is the line between muckraking & "Project Censored"? I mean where, legally, could one be drawn? About a boycott of those checkout counter mags, I am always hoping to see consumers turning on the hand that feeds them. But please spare Weekly World News, which recently reported that the dying words of an alien spaceman before he crashed at Roswell were "My wife...my children...God forgive me for my sins." But this, & other stuff I was abt to say, go 'way beyond an answer to the posted question, so I'll stop. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:09:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Red Slider Subject: of Chessgames and Princesses spanning David B.'s illuminating, if chilling, capture and arrest and Henry's thoughtful, if chilling, indictment both, on the illusion of the primacy of art, I am reminded of this observation from Louis Mumford: "Psychologically healthy people have no need to indulge fantasies of absolute power; nor do they need to come to terms with reality by inflicting self-mutilation and prematurely courting death. But the critical weakness of an over-regimented institutional structure--and almost by definition 'civilization' was over-regimented from the beginning--is that it does not tend to produce psychologically healthy people." "The rigid division of labor and the segregation of castes produce unbalanced characters, while mechanical routine normalizes--and rewards--those compulsive personalities who are afraid to cope with the embarrassing riches of life." The kings no longer need hide their crimes. They have only to demonstrate that flashbulbs, O-rings and the Times alike produce jobs. against Henry's remarks on "language artists", no matter where the shifting frontlines are thought to be, there is perhaps only illusion to be played, one pawn at a time. A long forgotten healer's art of speech made fast within that string the bow tips of the heart to sing the quivering Of reed, the flute; of string, the lyre to warrior was given; heaven prepares and earth provides, the dead divide the living. Warrior!, stretch upon thy deed bend thy bow to fit thy word take such strength from dexterous reed, in that, be what is heard. I wonder now if illusions ever served as useful nostrums? red. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:43:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: which david has the message? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David I, wd you mind being that, listwise? I am prepared to be David B. Thanks for clearing up that Dean B matter, which my egotism did as much to muddy as anything else. David B ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 11:56:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Interviews In-Reply-To: <199709021132.HAA28074@radagast.wizard.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Habeas Corpus-the Crown vs. Anthony Ashley Cooper, Lord Shaftsbury, 1681. A real interesting story, but for another occasion. Shaftsbury was the leader of the not-so-loyal proto-Whig opposition to Charles I. He's the villain of Dryden's Absalom and Achitophel, and he was the head of the corporation that founded the colonys of North and South Carolina. Charleston, SC, lies between the Ashly and Cooper rivers, both named for him. At 07:32 AM 9/2/97 -0400, you wrote: >Hmm --Pierre Joris answers this electro-interview question thus: > >> Hmm, on the more frivolous side, Plato innerviewing Socrates, & on >> the more serious side, Herodotus interviewing everyone to find out >> what really happened. Pierre > >I wonder if the (or a) next step down the primrose path toward >today's Charlie Rose & The Paris Review might be discerned (or >discoverable) in the traditions (midaeval?) of courts of law, >jurisprudence -- the interrogation, the interview of witnesses, and >whatever may have antedated our contemporary formal traditions of >direct & cross-examination, &c. > >Since the Writ of Habeas Corpus dates back to -- what? -- the 13th >century or something, one wonders how far back one finds those >(possibly related) formalities . . . > >(as is well known [sorta or not-quite relatedly], the Petrarchan >sonnet is alleged to have origins in the formal jargon of law . . . ) > >happy near-autumn, >d.i. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:58:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph S Zitt Subject: Re: Interviews Comments: To: mark weiss In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970902115601.006cf02c@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 2 Sep 1997, mark weiss wrote: > Habeas Corpus-the Crown vs. Anthony Ashley Cooper, Lord Shaftsbury, 1681. A I read that at first as "Habeas Corpus the Clown", which would have been quite another story! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 15:07:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazzi? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Bromige wrote: >About a boycott of those checkout counter mags, I am always hoping to see >consumers turning on the hand that feeds them. But please spare Weekly >World News, which recently reported that the dying words of an alien >spaceman before he crashed at Roswell were "My wife...my children...God >forgive me for my sins." David, yes, i agree, do not turn away the Weekly World News. the WWN is the Night Stand With Dick Dietrick of tabloids, a terrific parody of the genre. the stories that they make up are obviously fabricated and sometimes funny as hell (as David points out), though they do throw in actual (sensational) stories. i particularly like the right-wing columnist Ed Anger(!), who is always "pig-biting mad" or "madder than Teddy Kennedy at an AA meeting." Don =================================== Don Cheney San Diego, CA, USA http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791 doncheney@geocities.com =================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:36:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: BOO Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dee-- ok found it, the folder w Mullen stuff that is. The interview is in BOO #7, July 1996. The essay, "Poetry and Identity," is in West Coast Line, it turns out, Number Nineteen (30/1) Spring 1996. (I dunno what the 30/1 means, or how it could related to # 19, but that's what the mag says.) Correspondence address listed for West Coast Line is: 2027 East Academic Annex, Simon Fraser U, Burnaby, B.C., V5A 1S6 Canada. web address is http://www.sfu.ca/west-coast-line/WCL.html. Editor is Roy Miki. Locals Bowering and Quartermain are on board. At 09:19 AM 8/28/97 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks to Tenney, Herb, Red Slider, David Brominge, and Thomas Bell for the >Mullen information. I've e-mailed Deanna Ferguson about the interview in >BOO and will report back when I hear. Meanwhile, does anyone know the >citation for the Poetic Briefs essay Tenney mentions? > >I like Thomas Bell's idea of seeing whether some of Mullen's harder-to-find >pieces could be posted on the EPC hotlist. Is there anything a person >could do to help make that happen? > >Dee > > > >There are two pieces, actually, both of which folks on this list >>originally brought to my attention. One is the BOO interview; then there's, >>I think, a short essay by her in POETIC BRIEFS. >> >>best >> >>Tenney >> >>At 08:45 PM 8/27/97 -0500, you wrote: >>>Tenney-- >>> >>>Can you give a fuller reference for Harryette Mullen's BOO? Also, does >>>anyone know if Mullen published a lecture Aldon Nielsen refers to in *Black >>>Chant* called "Visionary Literacy: Art, Literature and Indigenous African >>>Writing Systems," first given at Intersection for the Arts in SF May 24, >>>1993? I'd like to find out more about the argument she makes there. >>> >>>Thanks very much-- >>> >>> Dee Morris >>> > > ---------------------------------------------------------- tenney nathanson tenney@azstarnet.com nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:54:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazzi? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bromige, my idol, wrote: >About a boycott of those checkout counter mags, I am always hoping to see >consumers turning on the hand that feeds them. But please spare Weekly >World News, which recently reported that the dying words of an alien >spaceman before he crashed at Roswell were "My wife...my children...God >forgive me for my sins." I fully agree. I love the Weekly World News. You can tell that they are serious because they print in black and white. In the WWN it was revealed for the first time that there was a World War II bomber found on the moon; and later a number of WW2 fighters found on Mars! Later it was revealed that humans had not gone to the moon, that the landings were faked. Once they ran a story about giant fish in Chinese rivers that leaped up and swallowed unwary horses that walked too close to the edge of the water. I get all my knowledge of the world from that paper. Boycott ehe rest of them, though. I mean, I hardly ever know who those people are that are mocked on the front pages. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 12:56:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: which david has the message? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >David I, wd you mind being that, listwise? I am prepared to be David B. >David B Hey, hey. I myself would like to be David B. David B. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 21:11:06 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: David B MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I understand the aim behind your suggestion but I really don't think it will help people just won't know who it is at all David B ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:16:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: my previous message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: Shaftesbury--that's Charlie the 2, of course. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 10:03:23 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: ted joans address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone have a different address out there other than 513 Maynard Avenue, South no. 202 in Seattle for Ted Joans? Thanks. Juliana js@lava.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:30:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Red Slider Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazzi? Notice to WWN-luvers: Wot, you think is okeedokee you go off-planet and litter our landscape with used flashbulbs, drive our credible models for imagination underground into lunar tunnels and 4th planet canals where you can chase meteroric celebrities into walls like used bolides? - you think moonbrains is something edible? Be Warned: our celebs now get special license to shoot back. redplanet red. Bromige, my idol, wrote: >About a boycott of those checkout counter mags, I am always hoping to see >consumers turning on the hand that feeds them. But please spare Weekly >World News, which recently reported that the dying words of an alien >spaceman before he crashed at Roswell were "My wife...my children...God >forgive me for my sins." I fully agree. I love the Weekly World News. You can tell that they are serious because they print in black and white. In the WWN it was revealed for the first time that there was a World War II bomber found on the moon; and later a number of WW2 fighters found on Mars! Later it was revealed that humans had not gone to the moon, that the landings were faked. Once they ran a story about giant fish in Chinese rivers that leaped up and swallowed unwary horses that walked too close to the edge of the water. I get all my knowledge of the world from that paper. Boycott ehe rest of them, though. I mean, I hardly ever know who those people are that are mocked on the front pages. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:42:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: thot on theroux and avant-garde Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't tell if this is jaded dismisal or agreement. In any case the quote is Piombino's. I neither defended the "avant-garde" or attacked Theroux. I intended to juxtapose the quote and the recent threads to point out that this is, as it long has been, a "boundary land" of conflict with shifting names and combatants. The problem for me is that there is no adequate term for this conflict. I was seeking some clarification and ideas. Perhaps in doing so I was not as clear as I should have been. As you say, "setting up who's 'the enemy' is the oldest chessgame." tom bell At 08:03 AM 9/2/97 EDT, Henry Gould wrote: >On Mon, 1 Sep 1997 23:17:22 -0500 Thomas Bell said: >> >>"Language today is the enemy of the State and historicity >>because of its power to germinate systems antithetical to >>custom, since custom is partly dependent on coded laws. >>Historicism, while allying itself with writing, knowing its >>enlarged scalar power as a reread document, distrusts its >>projective character (translation: stability). Taking >>language truly seriously as a partly known, partly >>unknowable form of energy is instantly recognizable to >>historicism as an antithetical challenge." _ Piombino, >>"Writing and Experiencing" >> > >Seems to me language-as-word is only one facet of a unitary/divided >meta-language of the mind, which includes words, which includes "the >State", etc. And setting up who's "the enemy" is the oldest chessgame >in the world - nothing avant-garde about it. It's called "us vs. them" >and it's about projecting psychological conflicts inherent in human nature. >The idea that "writers" or "language artists" are avant-garde because >they're breaking down stilted social codes ignores the fact that words >and the book have been used as weapons of control, revenge, self- >glorification, order, resentment, heirarchy, etc. etc. since the slaves >of Assurbanipal or whoever started pressing wedges in the clay. >Are these the historicists? They're the avant-garde in language tools. >- Henry Gould > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:18:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Devotion to the arts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FROM: NEWS OF THE WIERD * Brothers Geoffrey and Aaron Kuffner were arrested in New Orleans in June and charged with terrorism as the ones who had recently mailed or hand-delivered suspicious packages to local government and news media offices. The packages contained innocuous items (which nonetheless were frightening enough that two offices called for evacuations) and a four-page manifesto vowing that "Violent Acts of Consciousness Have Only Begun." According to police, the men's goal was to call attention to public ignorance of poetry and that among their demands was that all state inaugural speeches be written in iambic pentameter. joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 00:27:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Interviews Ron Silliman has some interesting comments on the form of the interview somewhere. Spent some time skipping about _The New Sentence_ and a few other essays unable to relocate-- citation anyone? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 22:49:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Interviews Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pierre writes: >Hmm, on the more frivolous side, Plato innerviewing Socrates, & on the >more serious side, Herodotus interviewing everyone to find out what >really happened. Pierre > While Greek dialogues certainly qualify as antecedents to the form, they tend to read more as drama-less plays than what I would think of as an interview. Which of course raises a question of form: what makes an interview different from a dialogue or a court hearing? Like a dialogue, an interview purports to be the questions, answers and discussion recorded over a specific period of time between two or more parties. It is an exchange of information, but there seems to be an element of discovery, of uncertainty, which is missing from most dialogues I'm familiar with. Interviews are unpredictable: the person asking the questions does not know the answers, and hopefully the person providing the answers does not know the questions. Of course there is a measure of artifice in the form, as anyone who's had to transcibe one quickly realizes. Most of the Greek dialogues are pretty contrived. The speakers resemble, if they are not in fact, fictional characters who exist only to provide philosophical points. Dialogues "go" somewhere. They point to the essay as the fiction of characters are replaced with a singular authorial voice. Court hearings and inquisitions take the dialogue into reality. There is no doubt that the person asking the questions and the person on the stand or rack are real. But court transcripts don't strike me as full-fledged interviews either. With the exception of public inquisitions/confessions, they seldom leave the courtroom. They are also beside the point: they are evidence which is used to render judgement. The judgements are what really matter in the court, they are what gets read and absorbed into the general body of law, not the interviews or other pieces of evidence. So I think the interview must have started with journalism, and it is there the first true interview will be found. Hugh Steinberg PS: Paparzzi probably sprung up once cameras became light enough to take snapshots (turn of the century), newspapers could print photos cheaply (half-tone printing, 1881), and notions of mass celebrity became commonplace. Just post WWI is my guess, with Valentino as the first victim. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:59:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: which david has the message? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT David B. -- > >David I, wd you mind being that, listwise? I am prepared to be > >David B. > > >David B > > > Hey, hey. I myself would like to be David B. > > David B. > > > > > > George Bowering. happily, if a bit belatedly, I cede (for what worth) all claims to "David B" to Mr. Bromige, and will willingly answer to the salutation "David I" -- though generally I've always been signing off as d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 07:52:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: thot on theroux and avant-garde In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:42:03 -0500 from On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:42:03 -0500 Thomas Bell said: >I can't tell if this is jaded dismisal or agreement. In any case the quote >is Piombino's. >I neither defended the "avant-garde" or attacked Theroux. I intended to >juxtapose the >quote and the recent threads to point out that this is, as it long has been, >a "boundary >land" of conflict with shifting names and combatants. The problem for me is >that there >is no adequate term for this conflict. I was seeking some clarification and >ideas. >Perhaps in doing so I was not as clear as I should have been. As you say, >"setting up >who's 'the enemy' is the oldest chessgame." Having missed the Theroux/Ashbery thread perhaps I only added confusion. I was responding directly to the paragraph from N. Piombino, not to its connection with previous discussion. My point was I disagreed with the idea that the nature of language in itself sets up a division between "the State" and the "historicists" who uphold it on the one hand and writers on the other. To me this simply romanticizes already-established ideas of who or what the avant-garde is (as I put it in a post a few weeks ago - cynically - the "avant-garde" is that portion of the writing world that already has a foothold in the "canon"). The problem for me with the established "experimental" poetry community is that it justifies itself in academic circles using definitions of "language" I don't accept. See, for example, Rosmarie Waldrop's talk in the Diacritics issue that Maria Damon mentioned. Waldrop pushes the notion that avant-garde postmodern writing in 20th century (Stein, Zukofsky, many others she quotes & alludes to) represents an historical shift in style & method from Romanticism, & bases this on a borrowing from formalist criticism - the Jakobson axes of metaphor and metonymy, or vertical identity and horizontal combination. The new style represents an openness to both language-as-origin and the material, social world by emphasizing COMBINATION over symbol and hierarchy. This shift in style may be inarguable, and may represent a real experimental-artistic alternative to mainstream individualist approaches to signature style. But the definition of poetic language underpinning it here is not one I can go along with. - Henry Gould >>> >>>"Language today is the enemy of the State and historicity >>>because of its power to germinate systems antithetical to >>>custom, since custom is partly dependent on coded laws. >>>Historicism, while allying itself with writing, knowing its >>>enlarged scalar power as a reread document, distrusts its >>>projective character (translation: stability). Taking >>>language truly seriously as a partly known, partly >>>unknowable form of energy is instantly recognizable to >>>historicism as an antithetical challenge." _ Piombino, >>>"Writing and Experiencing" >>> >> >>Seems to me language-as-word is only one facet of a unitary/divided >>meta-language of the mind, which includes words, which includes "the >>State", etc. And setting up who's "the enemy" is the oldest chessgame >>in the world - nothing avant-garde about it. It's called "us vs. them" >>and it's about projecting psychological conflicts inherent in human nature. >>The idea that "writers" or "language artists" are avant-garde because >>they're breaking down stilted social codes ignores the fact that words >>and the book have been used as weapons of control, revenge, self- >>glorification, order, resentment, heirarchy, etc. etc. since the slaves >>of Assurbanipal or whoever started pressing wedges in the clay. >>Are these the historicists? They're the avant-garde in language tools. >>- Henry Gould >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 08:19:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Devotion to the arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT joel lewis passed this along -- > FROM: NEWS OF THE WIERD > > * Brothers Geoffrey and Aaron Kuffner were arrested in New > Orleans in June and charged with terrorism as the ones who had > recently mailed or hand-delivered suspicious packages to local > government and news media offices. . . . > the men's goal was to call attention to public ignorance of > poetry and that among their demands was that all state inaugural > speeches be written in iambic pentameter. Ladies and gentlemen, 'ere auburn leaves of autumn grace the ground with Labor Day but twain ago -- I've come to speechify in what I've haply found to be compensitorrentially dumb that's not to say this pentametric sound is tantamount to paramount abusrdness -- 'ere auburn leaves of autumn grace the ground I'm glad enough the sad enough have heard this [etc.] d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 09:46:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazz Comments: To: David Bromige MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Thanks, David, for that wonderful anecdote. You ask, quite properly, if somewhat rhetorically,"Where is the line between muckraking & "Project Censored"? I mean where, legally, could one be drawn?" I'm afraid the attempt to stop present abuses would only lead to further and more serious abuses, providing yet another cloak for those up to no-good to conceal their skulduggery even more effectively. Interesting about the re-staging of events done by Gaumont. The earliest instance I know of this sort of thing dates from 1898, when the Vitagraph Picture Co. "re-enacted" the taking of San Juan Hill by TR. The idea was TR's and he got it from Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show, which itself popularized re-enactments. The film fixed in the public's mind the notion that mounted soldiers could successfully charge uphill against machine gun emplacements, which of course did not happen. So, the abuse has been around since the inception of the medium, rather in the same way that lying has been around since people mastered speech, and later, writing. One could make an argument that tabloids exist in relation to the mainstream press in the same way that organized crime acts as a mirror for bourgeois values. The former is merely the shadow cast by the latter. To demonize the former is to miss the point - which for me, anyway, is that all modes of data transmission are subject to corruption. The mainstream press is able to defend itself against charges of vulgarity, as if that were the most heinous crime it could commit, but when it comes to coddling corporate interest, censoring stories, or acting as apologists for official policies that are clearly causing real harm and grief to thousands of people, mum's the word. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 10:14:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazz In-Reply-To: <01IN7A7A3IOS8ZE4SX@iix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >One could make an argument that tabloids exist in relation >to the mainstream press in the same way that organized crime acts as a >mirror for bourgeois values. The former is merely the shadow cast by the >latter. > >Patrick Pritchett Are you sure it doesn't go the other way? This is not entirely facetious: consider that the early press resembled tabloids more than the NY Times, and that the founders of aristocracies often were those who could terrorize and control more effectively than others. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 13:36:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: address query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" anyone got an address for robert zamsky? please backchannel asap. thanks ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 12:54:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "aldon l. nielsen" To: poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: new adress etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.7 am now back with the list via the new email address shown here -- will not be able to read email from home for a few weeks yet -- apologies to any and all concerned -- Now, about that LA Times review of Ashbery -- not only did they spell Olson's name incorrectly (unless they meant Elder Olsen????), but there was a misquote of Kenner and much additional sloppiness -- You (the rhetorical "you" of course) might think that before accusing a poet of being a fraud you should at least check the spelling of the name -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 14:53:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazz Comments: To: Judy Roitman MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN You raise a very good point Judy and it may well be that that was the case. The first newscasters were town criers, usually in the service of the local ruler. When the printing press was invented, the veil of darkness was not lifted with the kind of majestic sweep we typically imagine since the powers that be rushed to print their own versions of things so as to keep a firm grip on the reins, just as you say. So maybe a better analogy would be one that cast tabloids as atavistic versions of the modern press which still thrive because of people's hunger for _narrative_ in whatever form. ---------- From: Judy Roitman To: POETICS Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazz Date: Wednesday, September 03, 1997 10:42AM >One could make an argument that tabloids exist in relation >to the mainstream press in the same way that organized crime acts as a >mirror for bourgeois values. The former is merely the shadow cast by the >latter. > >Patrick Pritchett Are you sure it doesn't go the other way? This is not entirely facetious: consider that the early press resembled tabloids more than the NY Times, and that the founders of aristocracies often were those who could terrorize and control more effectively than others. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 15:55:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: thot on theroux and avant-garde Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Henry G. Thanks for the clarification. I'll leave it to Nick to respond about the quote if he chooses. My interest is in the area between "history" and "writing" as that's where the _action_ is. tom bell At 07:52 AM 9/3/97 EDT, henry g wrote: >On Tue, 2 Sep 1997 18:42:03 -0500 Thomas Bell said: >>I can't tell if this is jaded dismisal or agreement. In any case the quote >>is Piombino's. >>I neither defended the "avant-garde" or attacked Theroux. I intended to >>juxtapose the > >Having missed the Theroux/Ashbery thread perhaps I only added confusion. >I was responding directly to the paragraph from N. Piombino, not to its >connection with previous discussion. My point was I disagreed with the >idea that the nature of language in itself sets up a division between >"the State" and the "historicists" who uphold it on the one hand and >writers on the other. To me this simply romanticizes already-established >ideas of who or what the avant-garde is (as I put it in a post a few >weeks ago - cynically - the "avant-garde" is that portion of the writing >world that already has a foothold in the "canon"). The problem for me >with the established "experimental" poetry community is that it justifies >itself in academic circles using definitions of "language" I don't accept. >See, for example, Rosmarie Waldrop's talk in the Diacritics issue that >Maria Damon mentioned. Waldrop pushes the notion that avant-garde >postmodern writing in 20th century (Stein, Zukofsky, many others she >quotes & alludes to) represents an historical shift in style & method >from Romanticism, & bases this on a borrowing from formalist >criticism - the Jakobson axes of metaphor and metonymy, or vertical >identity and horizontal combination. The new style represents an openness >to both language-as-origin and the material, social world by emphasizing >COMBINATION over symbol and hierarchy. This shift in style may be >inarguable, and may represent a real experimental-artistic alternative >to mainstream individualist approaches to signature style. But the >definition of poetic language underpinning it here is not one I can >go along with. > >- Henry Gould >>>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 19:26:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: my father among the earlier paparazz Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Actually, it was not uncommon for Civil War photographers to rearrange the bodies of fallen soldiers into more "picturesque" poses. Hugh Steinberg Patrick writes: >Interesting about the re-staging of events done by Gaumont. The earliest >instance I know of this sort of thing dates from 1898, when the Vitagraph >Picture Co. "re-enacted" the taking of San Juan Hill by TR. The idea was >TR's and he got it from Buffalo Bill Cody's Wild West Show, which itself >popularized re-enactments. The film fixed in the public's mind the notion >that mounted soldiers could successfully charge uphill against machine gun >emplacements, which of course did not happen. > >So, the abuse has been around since the inception of the medium, rather in >the same way that lying has been around since people mastered speech, and >later, writing. One could make an argument that tabloids exist in relation >to the mainstream press in the same way that organized crime acts as a >mirror for bourgeois values. The former is merely the shadow cast by the >latter. To demonize the former is to miss the point - which for me, anyway, >is that all modes of data transmission are subject to corruption. The >mainstream press is able to defend itself against charges of vulgarity, as >if that were the most heinous crime it could commit, but when it comes to >coddling corporate interest, censoring stories, or acting as apologists for >official policies that are clearly causing real harm and grief to thousands >of people, mum's the word. > >Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Sep 1997 23:46:42 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: address search MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can someone backchannel me with Jena Osman's address? Thanks in advance! Karen McKevitt ttheatre@sirius.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 00:36:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: which david has the message? In-Reply-To: <199709031200.IAA23854@radagast.wizard.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I dont care. Whenever I mention David B. here I will be referring to David Israel. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:37:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Pardon me if this has been sd, I am following this thread intermittently - it was V common for First WW footage, much of it now taken to be real, to be reenactments by actors often nowhere near the theatre of war... now there's a phrase L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 08:34:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: shadows cast MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [ was, Re: my father among the earlier paparazz ] this is note David Bromige (but thanks anyway GB) -- Judy Roitman quotes & comments: > >One could make an argument that tabloids exist in relation > >to the mainstream press in the same way that organized crime acts > >as a mirror for bourgeois values. The former is merely the shadow > >cast by the latter. > > > >Patrick Pritchett > > Are you sure it doesn't go the other way? This is not entirely > facetious: consider that the early press resembled tabloids more > than the NY Times, and that the founders of aristocracies often were > those who could terrorize and control more effectively than others. interesting. However, to trace the teleology (if that's the word) -- the process of origins over time -- is not the same as sketching the present relationship. That is, what was, in a prior era, central, can become, on a later stratum, peripheral, once the centrality of origins has been displaced by more refined offspring (or spinoff). To schematize: The primordial proto-mafiosi is first supplanted by The shining civilized aristocracy which is then shadowed by The renascent mafia (mirroring the aristocrats & simultaneously carrying ancient memory of primordial originality intact) Perhaps this 3-level pattern can be observed rather broadly, in a variety of applications. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 09:15:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss In-Reply-To: <199709040839.JAA05816@tycho.global.net.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Likewise WWII--the raising of the flag at Iwo Jima, MacArthur's landing in the Phillipines. Also common to rewrite history thru the editing of otherwise honest film footage. Hitler didn't dance a jig for the camera when France surrendered. At 09:37 AM 9/4/97 +0100, you wrote: ><the >bodies of fallen soldiers into more "picturesque" poses. > >Hugh Steinberg >>> > >Pardon me if this has been sd, I am following this thread intermittently - >it was V common for First WW footage, much of it now taken to be real, to >be reenactments by actors often nowhere near the theatre of war... now >there's a phrase > >L > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 12:11:10 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: Chain / 4 now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NOW AVAILABLE C H A I N / 4 process and procedures From “Editors’ Notes”: This issue explores how things get made. It collects work that exposes the procedures, the processes, and the constraints that accompany creation. Procedural work is important because it requires a consciousness of language and form that resonates with the way we experience the world. It offers a necessary understanding of those experiences as it allows us to approach them from different angles and through new analogies. Please consider these examples invitations for writing as well as reading. Please make new pieces, new procedures, new experiences. The issue includes Kui Dong’s and Denise Newman’s “Cess (after Turandot),” an opera; Dan Featherston’s “She Had Some Horseworms” and Cliff Fyman’s “My Job to Throw Out Dead Mouse,” ouilipian language replacements; Peter Gizzi’s “Ode: Salute to the New York School 1950-1970 (A Libretto)”; Robert Kelly’s “Path Moss,” a homophonic translation of Holderlin’s “Patmos”; Carl Lehmann-Haupt’s “The Poetry of Design/The Design of Poetry,” visual definitions of poetic terms; Clarinda Mac Low’s “Sabotage,” a transcript of a performance; Miranda Maher’s “Difficult Books,” manipulations of books; Margaret Morton’s “Pepe Otero: Architect of Shantytown,” photographs that document the building and destruction of a house over time; Catherine Schieve’s “Catahoula Benefete, Southwest Louisiana, November 1995,” a minute of film of a dance; Saturo Takahashi’s “Dumping Sight: Landscape/Landscope,” photographs of a big device made of a record, record player, water, and glass that manipulates sight. Full list of participants: Michael Basinski Guy R. Beining Dodie Bellamy Caroline Bergvall Jeremy Caplan Janet Cohen Cynthia Conrad Maria Damon Tina Darragh Jean Day Alan Devenish Kui Dong Dan Featherston Joel Felix Keith Frank William Fuller Cliff Fyman Peter Gizzi Dale Going Jessica Grim Lauren Gudath Jorge Guitart Dick Higgins John High Jennifer Hoff P. Inman Jon Ippolito David Kellogg Robert Kelly Kevin Killian Wendy Kramer Carl Lehmann-Haupt Tan Lin Lori Lubeski Brigid McLeer Clarinda Mac Low Jackson Mac Low Miranda Maher Lizbeth Marano William Marsh John Mason E.A. Miller Laura Moriarty Margaret Morton Harryette Mullen Laura Mullen Edward Mycue John Newman Sianne Ngai Denise Newman Patricia Pruitt Joan Retallack William van Roden Lisa Samuels Leslie Scalapino Catherine Schieve Ilana Simons Mary Margaret Sloan Satoru Takahashi Chris Tysh Chris Vitiello Keith Waldrop Rosmarie Waldrop Hannah Weiner Susan Wheeler Janet Zweig. --------------------------------- This is a plea. We want to encourage you to subscribe to Chain. Chain is broke. We have $.58 in our bank account right now. Word is that one can not run a journal using subscribers as the primary source of funding. (I just had two people tell me that this week alone.) But there doesn’t seem to be any other way to do it. Grants are disappearing. We’ve unfortunately learned that we can not rely on bookstore sales in any way. With the exception of SPD, our distributors barely pay us what little they do owe us (they tend to be going out of business right now any way; the returns from large corporate bookstores are killing them as much as they are killing us). Help us prove this word wrong by subscribing or making a donation. We need around 350 subscribers per issue to stay solvent. While 350 subscribers doesn’t seem impossible, getting people to subscribe has been difficult. We have less than 100 right now. If for whatever reason you don’t want to subscribe to Chain, then please subscribe to some other journal. Our situation is not unique right now. Basically the middle man heavy system of book distribution is no longer working. And in this anti-independent publication era we need grassroots organizing and cottage industries more than ever. Subscription rates: $20 for two issues $12 for Chain / 5 on different languages (emphasis here will be on work in more than one language) $10 for Chain / 4 on process and procedures Free copy of the Lab Book upon request with a two issue subscription as long as supplies last. (The Lab Book is edited by Jena Osman with work by Elizabeth Burns, Lew Daly, Jefferson Hansen, Peter Gizzi, Cynthia Kimball, Jena Osman, Juliana Spahr, Bill Tuttle, Mark Wallace, and Elizabeth Willis. The Lab Book is a collection of ten core poems written by ten different writers. Each core poem is followed by nine responses. It is an investigation of ideas of community and workshop.) Email orders are accepted. Chain 3029 Lowrey Avenue, no. A-1102 Honolulu, HI 96822 Please make checks payable to Chain. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 18:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Free Cuisine MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN To my knowledge, Elliza McGrand hasn't announced the publication of the latest Free Cuisine #17, a poetry webzine which she co-edits, but I don't think I'd be amiss in directing the List's attention to it. You can find it at: www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine/html Okay, so I'm in it. But so are listmembers Henry Gould, Matthias Regan, Rachel Levitsky, Joel Lewis, David Israel and David Bromige, who's written a marvelous story called "Irish." There is much besides to recommend this issue, including a poem by Scott Keeney entitled "Five Songs By Tristan Who?" Check it out! Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 19:29:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: Free Cuisine In-Reply-To: <01IN95RUXP368ZEGRG@iix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" patrick, you've got a typo in your URL. it should be http://www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine.html don >To my knowledge, Elliza McGrand hasn't announced the publication of the >latest Free Cuisine #17, a poetry webzine which she co-edits, but I don't >think I'd be amiss in directing the List's attention to it. > >You can find it at: www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine/html > >Okay, so I'm in it. But so are listmembers Henry Gould, Matthias Regan, >Rachel Levitsky, Joel Lewis, David Israel and David Bromige, who's written a >marvelous story called "Irish." There is much besides to recommend this >issue, including a poem by Scott Keeney entitled "Five Songs By Tristan >Who?" > >Check it out! > >Patrick Pritchett > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:56:46 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark weiss wrote: > > Likewise WWII--the raising of the flag at Iwo Jima, MacArthur's landing in > the Phillipines. Also common to rewrite history thru the editing of > otherwise honest film footage. Hitler didn't dance a jig for the camera > when France surrendered. > > At 09:37 AM 9/4/97 +0100, you wrote: > >< >the > >bodies of fallen soldiers into more "picturesque" poses. > > > >Hugh Steinberg > >>> > > > >Pardon me if this has been sd, I am following this thread intermittently - > >it was V common for First WW footage, much of it now taken to be real, to > >be reenactments by actors often nowhere near the theatre of war... now > >there's a phrase > > > >L > > > > Mark, Do you have a source for the Hilter jig bamboozle [& other such shenanigans]? Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Sep 1997 22:09:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: the signifier known as george bowering / which david has the message Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" henceforth when i write "George Bowering" it means Michael Ondaatje, except on thursdays before noon when it means George Stanley, or sundays between 3 and 5 p.m. when it means Fiona Sharp. When i mention the book _Bowering's B.C._ I will actually be referring to _The Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire_. If I allude to Gb's poetry collection, _Kerrisdale Elegies_ , what will be intended will be _Watt_ , by Samuel Beckett. Should I write "Georege Bowering's navel has lint in it," I will really be saying "William Butler Yeats was a dab hand at badminton." The expression "Bowering picked absent-mindedly at his nostril-hairs" should be taken as saying "Laurence Olivier never acted better in movies than when he was with Michael Caine." If I wish to tell the List, "Evelyn Waugh scarcely improved with age" I think I shall say, "George Bowering opens his boiled egg at the wide end." Oh, and "Bowering cracks his knuckles during sex" will mean "Bowering is incorrigible ask his wife." David I ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:39:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: Scully & Healey reading--9/6, NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Attention: New York City types & all in vicinity: SURPRISE POETRY READING! MAURICE SCULLY & RANDOLPH HEALEY over from IRELAND appearing SATURDAY, SEPTEMBER 6th 8pm SEGUE Performance Space 303 East 8th Street Donation requested 3-5$ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 01:17:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: the signifier known as george bowering / which david has the message In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What an unkind cut! I open my boiled egg at the pointy end, as does any sensible person, because you cant have the smaller end pointing downwards! Tch! George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 03:23:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: big end versus little end Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Geroge Bowering knows he says which end is up. Others arent so sure. That he knows that. Its late at night, here amid the puffy sea-clouds and the thudding apple orchards, but isnt me memory correct that Swift has a conflict between Big endians and Little endians? Or did I dream that up sometime & nw its like a true memory? Anyway, if Goerge is a Big Endian then his wife, Angela, is likely a Little Endian, because married couples polarize to simplify the world. George, tell us about reading with Robin Blaser on Salt Spring Island, you cant have ben as bizarre as he says you were. (just kidding). (just planting the seed of dfoubt,Its my job, like Cato's job with Peter Sellers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:17:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry G Subject: I toddled to a reading I caught the tail end of a 2-day Irish poetry visit at Brown Univ. - Dublin poets Billy Mills & Catherine Walsh read. 2 fine writers - in different ways writing a "social" poetry - not that they recycle "public" issues or themes, either directly or indirectly - but that rather than telling personal stories, they find a meditative/dramatic language of social perception - I admired their independence - the poems seem "finished" rather than over-reaching - Walsh a playful, deadpan writer - intersperses overheard street talk with funny elementary-school how-I-construct-this elements - Mills I appreciated for clarity of perception - there is something to be said for "integrity" or the "integral" aspect to a poem - I don't want to say unity - but the integration of thought, visual & aural perception, emotion, & language-rhythm is something to aim for - clear visual imagery (not obvious, but clear) is analogous to overall "harmony", the sense of completeness - not necessary, perhaps, but it helps - in the case of Mills, it's clear imagery in part because one of his themes is ongoing local mundane beauty & hidden ongoingness - they have their own cottage industry over there, unfortunately I don't have the info here on how to obtain their publications but maybe when Randolph Healy gets back to the emerald, he can re-post some of that ? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:49:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Free Cuisine Comments: To: Don Cheney MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Thanks, Don. I also goofed on the zine's name. It's Free Cuisineart. ---------- From: Don Cheney To: POETICS Subject: Re: Free Cuisine Date: Thursday, September 04, 1997 6:39PM patrick, you've got a typo in your URL. it should be http://www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine.html don ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:26:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Ass backwards--apologies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry, George is a declared _Little_Endian, therefore his wife is likely a _Big_Endian. I might also have been clearer on this matter of domesticity and polarization. When a friend the other day said "My wife was nervous about the people camped beside us at these remote hot springs in eastern Oregon, so I didn't get to be," I understood a lot about marriage (& not before time). Facing outward, this polarization of roles makes for strength, for more points-of-view are possible, the landscape is more fully surveyed. Face-to-face, however, and as we know, it can cause trouble. I took the Bowerings as example due to their 35 years of marriage, & because Listlings revere GB, but I meant no harm in doing so, and might just as well have taken myself and Cecelia as instance. Or, literally, my father & stepmother, who in their later years had, according to my sister, a number of disputes centering on the correct end at which to open a boiled egg. I dont know what any of this has to do with poetics. It was very late at night and my sleeping pill was speaking (witness the spellings). When I read the results this morning (surprised to find the message) I was only relieved it wasnt more irrelevant. But would someone respond re Big Endians vs. Little Endians--_is_ that Swift? David I ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:19:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: Re: Free Cuisine In-Reply-To: <01IN95RUXP368ZEGRG@iix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Patrick: are you sure this URL is correct? it got me nowhere... bill At 06:14 PM 9/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >To my knowledge, Elliza McGrand hasn't announced the publication of the >latest Free Cuisine #17, a poetry webzine which she co-edits, but I don't >think I'd be amiss in directing the List's attention to it. > >You can find it at: www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine/html > >Okay, so I'm in it. But so are listmembers Henry Gould, Matthias Regan, >Rachel Levitsky, Joel Lewis, David Israel and David Bromige, who's written a >marvelous story called "Irish." There is much besides to recommend this >issue, including a poem by Scott Keeney entitled "Five Songs By Tristan >Who?" > >Check it out! > >Patrick Pritchett > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:37:58 -0400 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John_Lavagnino@BROWN.EDU Subject: Re: Ass backwards--apologies In-Reply-To: (message from David Bromige on Fri, 5 Sep 97 15:26:29 +0000) Big-Endian and Little-Endian do go back to Gulliver's Travels; but they are now---no kidding!---the standard technical terms for two ways of ordering bytes within a word of computer memory. See that famous and authoritative compilation, the Jargon File, at http://www.ccil.org/jargon/jargon.html for more on this. John ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:50:04 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: I toddled to a reading Comments: To: Henry G In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:17:00 EDT from On Fri, 5 Sep 1997 08:17:00 EDT Rhode Island Rooster wrote: >they have their own cottage industry over there, unfortunately >I don't have the info here on how to obtain their publications >but maybe when Randolph Healy gets back to the emerald, he >can re-post some of that ? - Henry Gould One place to get many of the books of Maurice Scully, Randolph Healy, Billy Mills, Catherine Walsh, and others Irish and also British, is via Peter Riley's catalog and bookstore: Peter Riley (Books) 27, Sturton Street Cambridge, CB1 2QG England ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 11:08:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Free Cuisinart In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970904163502.63ff0f7a@mail.geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >patrick, > >you've got a typo in your URL. it should be > > http://www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine.html > >don > I was trying to read FC in my office which is where I access the Web but I kept getting all this music which is very uncool where I work and couldn't find a way to turn it off. Please all you folks with complicated Web sites, please have pity on those of us who either have to pretend we are working all the time or who out of courtesy to those around us have to keep it down, way down. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 09:11:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: Interviews In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A late note on the interview thread: Steve McCaffery has something to say on that subject (and many others) in an interview with Clint Burnham from Witz 1.2. I've posted it online at: http://www.crl.com/~creiner/witz/mccaffery.html --Chris R. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 21:16:29 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Chain / 4 now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit what wld the rates be to UK i only have a sterling account L ---------- > From: Juliana Spahr > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Chain / 4 now available > Date: 04 September 1997 23:11 > > NOW AVAILABLE > > > C H A I N / 4 process and procedures > > > > > >From “Editors’ Notes”: > > This issue explores how things get made. It collects work that exposes > the procedures, the processes, and the constraints that accompany > creation. Procedural work is important because it requires a > consciousness of language and form that resonates with the way we > experience the world. It offers a necessary understanding of those > experiences as it allows us to approach them from different angles and > through new analogies. Please consider these examples invitations for > writing as well as reading. Please make new pieces, new procedures, new > experiences. > > > > > The issue includes Kui Dong’s and Denise Newman’s “Cess (after > Turandot),” an opera; Dan Featherston’s “She Had Some Horseworms” and > Cliff Fyman’s “My Job to Throw Out Dead Mouse,” ouilipian language > replacements; Peter Gizzi’s “Ode: Salute to the New York School > 1950-1970 (A Libretto)”; Robert Kelly’s “Path Moss,” a homophonic > translation of Holderlin’s “Patmos”; Carl Lehmann-Haupt’s “The Poetry of > Design/The Design of Poetry,” visual definitions of poetic terms; > Clarinda Mac Low’s “Sabotage,” a transcript of a performance; Miranda > Maher’s “Difficult Books,” manipulations of books; Margaret Morton’s > “Pepe Otero: Architect of Shantytown,” photographs that document the > building and destruction of a house over time; Catherine Schieve’s > “Catahoula Benefete, Southwest Louisiana, November 1995,” a minute of > film of a dance; Saturo Takahashi’s “Dumping Sight: > Landscape/Landscope,” photographs of a big device made of a record, > record player, water, and glass that manipulates sight. > > > Full list of participants: Michael Basinski Guy R. Beining Dodie Bellamy > Caroline Bergvall Jeremy Caplan Janet Cohen Cynthia Conrad Maria Damon > Tina Darragh Jean Day Alan Devenish Kui Dong Dan Featherston Joel Felix > Keith Frank William Fuller Cliff Fyman Peter Gizzi Dale Going Jessica > Grim Lauren Gudath Jorge Guitart Dick Higgins John High Jennifer Hoff P. > Inman Jon Ippolito David Kellogg Robert Kelly Kevin Killian Wendy Kramer > Carl Lehmann-Haupt Tan Lin Lori Lubeski Brigid McLeer Clarinda Mac Low > Jackson Mac Low Miranda Maher Lizbeth Marano William Marsh John Mason > E.A. Miller Laura Moriarty Margaret Morton Harryette Mullen Laura Mullen > Edward Mycue John Newman Sianne Ngai Denise Newman Patricia Pruitt Joan > Retallack William van Roden Lisa Samuels Leslie Scalapino Catherine > Schieve Ilana Simons Mary Margaret Sloan Satoru Takahashi Chris Tysh > Chris Vitiello Keith Waldrop Rosmarie Waldrop Hannah Weiner Susan > Wheeler Janet Zweig. > > > --------------------------------- > > > This is a plea. > > We want to encourage you to subscribe to Chain. > > Chain is broke. We have $.58 in our bank account right now. > > Word is that one can not run a journal using subscribers as the primary > source of funding. (I just had two people tell me that this week alone.) > > But there doesn’t seem to be any other way to do it. Grants are > disappearing. We’ve unfortunately learned that we can not rely on > bookstore sales in any way. With the exception of SPD, our distributors > barely pay us what little they do owe us (they tend to be going out of > business right now any way; the returns from large corporate bookstores > are killing them as much as they are killing us). > > Help us prove this word wrong by subscribing or making a donation. > > We need around 350 subscribers per issue to stay solvent. While 350 > subscribers doesn’t seem impossible, getting people to subscribe has > been difficult. We have less than 100 right now. > > If for whatever reason you don’t want to subscribe to Chain, then please > subscribe to some other journal. Our situation is not unique right now. > Basically the middle man heavy system of book distribution is no longer > working. And in this anti-independent publication era we need grassroots > organizing and cottage industries more than ever. > > > Subscription rates: > > > $20 for two issues > $12 for Chain / 5 on different languages (emphasis here will be on work > in more than one language) > $10 for Chain / 4 on process and procedures > > Free copy of the Lab Book upon request with a two issue subscription as > long as supplies last. > > (The Lab Book is edited by Jena Osman with work by Elizabeth Burns, Lew > Daly, Jefferson Hansen, Peter Gizzi, Cynthia Kimball, Jena Osman, > Juliana Spahr, Bill Tuttle, Mark Wallace, and Elizabeth Willis. The Lab > Book is a collection of ten core poems written by ten different writers. > Each core poem is followed by nine responses. It is an investigation of > ideas of community and workshop.) > > Email orders are accepted. > > > > > Chain > 3029 Lowrey Avenue, no. A-1102 > Honolulu, HI 96822 > > Please make checks payable to Chain. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 14:02:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Free Cuisinart Unless it is a musical piece sounding its own tune, i'd vote for eliminating musyuk from poetry sites all together (and appreciate those that at least have a big 'turn off' button before entering the hospital zone). Its useless for me to try to read someones work over someone else's music - i don't even try. (my speaker vol. stays off) red I was trying to read FC in my office which is where I access the Web but I kept getting all this music which is very uncool where I work and couldn't find a way to turn it off. Please all you folks with complicated Web sites, please have pity on those of us who either have to pretend we are working all the time or who out of courtesy to those around us have to keep it down, way down. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- Note new area code ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:21:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: big end versus little end In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >. George, tell us about reading with Robin >Blaser on Salt Spring Island, We read in a church (that seems to be the norm--did the same in another Church on Vancouver Island a few weeks later) with the summer door open so that the dog could walk in and out, and the crows could comment on the norion of a serial poem. Her mainly read his latest section of the Great Companions series, this one Dante. I heard him read from it a month later in a roundhouse, where he read with Sharon Thesen. The Dante section, as you likely know, is the third one, following the Pindar and Duncan sections. But the Dante section is a whole book long! No one knows what the form or mode is; it uses all kinds of language, discourse, etc. Ah but Salt Spring Island. The evening before, we had dinner, and then breakfast in the morning, with Phyllis Webb, at the home of poet Brian Brett/ well, home! It is a beautiful huge long house full of curios and food, set in the best garden I have seen, and this garden becomes a farm greadually, and there were baby peacocks and peahens (when they are babies how do you tell?) on the lawn, being pursued by a cat, but the peahen then pursues the cat, who runs under the horse. And so on. Blaser, of course, was enthralled. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 20:21:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: French Theory in America events Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Passing this along, for any interest out there -- Tues., October 7, 8:15, Jacques Derrida on "Deconstructions: l'Im-possible" (in French) NYU Tisch Hall, 40 West 4th Street, Schimmel Auditorium Tues., October 14, 8:15 - Elisabeth Roudinesco on Jacques Lacan ("l'Histoire effacee) (in French) NYU La Maison, 16 Washington Mews Mon., October 27, 8:15 - Francoise Gaillard on Barthes, La Maison (as above) November 8 - Julia Kristeva -- for info, see below November 13, 14 & 15 -- Colloquium on the Americanization of French Theory with Lotringer, Said, Sennett, Haverkamp, etc. -- for info, see below November 21 & 22 - Colloquium events at The Drawing Center with Avital Ronell, Gayatri Spivack, Kathy Acker, etc., 35 Wooster Street, 219-2166 Tie-in events for this Colloquium too at the Anthology Film Archives on Second Avenue 505-5181 I know no more than what's here -- for information call NYU's La Maison Francaise at 212-998-8750. Susan Wheeler wheeler@is.nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:25:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Ass backwards--apologies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >. But would someone respond re Big Endians >vs. Little Endians--_is_ that Swift? David I Of course it was. And I have a neat experience. Once my girlfriend Joan (David B. will remember her) and I were having an argument about which end of the boiled egg to open. We took it, as we did most disputes, to my father Ewart for his judgement. He said nothing but placed his boiled egg on its side in a little bown, cut it down the middle, and ate out of both halves. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 17:42:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Ass backwards--apologies In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This works for soft-boiled, too, with a little preparation. Carve, as we have, a shallow depression at each place setting, place egg in same, cut, and lick it out! No mess, and no dished to clean. At 05:25 PM 9/5/97 -0700, you wrote: >>. But would someone respond re Big Endians >>vs. Little Endians--_is_ that Swift? David I > >Of course it was. > >And I have a neat experience. Once my girlfriend Joan (David B. will >remember her) and I were having an argument about which end of the boiled >egg to open. We took it, as we did most disputes, to my father Ewart for >his judgement. He said nothing but placed his boiled egg on its side in a >little bown, cut it down the middle, and ate out of both halves. > > > > >George Bowering. > , >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 18:45:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Ass backwards--notes from the pointy-end Fer what its worth. The pointy end is where the innoculation of chicken eggs are done. The reason is simple, innoculants must be injected between the membrane and the shell and, if the egg is stood pointy-side up the airpocket forces the membrane to lie on the surface of the albumen and leaves a space to make the injection via automated equipment (I gather these are eggs used for research, I can't imagine innoculating table-ready eggs). My source is first-hand from my Uncle Joe who invented the process for Cutter Laboratories back in the 30's. Saved them mllions. Joe got nothing. He also discovered a cure for cancer I believe. But was light-years ahead of his time. He died last year at the age of 88. red ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Sep 1997 22:24:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Ass backwards--apologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From George B.: > >. But would someone respond re Big Endians > >vs. Little Endians--_is_ that Swift? David I > > Of course it was. > > And I have a neat experience. Once my girlfriend Joan (David B. will > remember her) and I were having an argument . . . it's odd that I don't recollect said Joan. David B. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 02:21:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: Hiroshma m a 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - so agony hmm. From exactly 4 years after or was it 5 we walked autumn when you name - across earthenware fused mirror ground wonder how we then shorn, sunken marked 12000 ' not impacted but warmth of the square . . ^ . . < 0 > . I'm not sure, . < 0-0 > . 10000 or women in1 . < 0-*-0 > . . < 0-0 > . . < 0 > . . v . . I'm not so sure when this is read again 12000 y- storage turning field mark granite spikes in this room so that it can be read when English and Japanese gone, say nothing of French there in autumn start at falling leaves flowers because she's nervous September 1997 cut bloodless yet incomplete yellow paper Florentia I said I would write our s'arrive however ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 10:10:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "aldon l. nielsen" To: poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: occasional verse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.7 has anyone else read Ted Hughes's poem in honor of Di? appears in this morning's LA Times -- Last line was exemplary of . . . well, you can guess perhaps it wasn't his best effort, as it wasn't quite a state occasion? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 15:24:08 -0400 Reply-To: potepoet@home.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: Potes & Poets Press Inc Subject: computer woes and potes & poets and ZINEFOUR Comments: To: cap-l@tc.umn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello--- due to some intense computer problems, i have not received any email since mid-august----now, i have solved some of these problems and am now in the process of replying to the messages received during that time which were stored at my server---- also, due to a demented tech support person i-won't-say-where, all the data on my hard drive was deleted, some of which was backed-up-----but not the submissions for POTEPOETZINEFOUR, the women's writing issue, which was promising to be a great issue---the writers who were to be included in that issue should resend their texts----thanks in advance for that---- POTEPOETZINEFIVE will be guest edited by alan sondheim and POTEPOETZINESIX will be guest edited by jim leftwich--- these will be sent in october---- please send all submissions for POTEPOETZINESEVEN, a general issue, after mid-october, when these problems have been solved and issues 4, 5, and 6 have been sent out---- also, during that mass deleting, my entire electronic address book vanished--- i have about 75% of the ZINE's subscribers addresses in hard copy, but the latest ones, from people who subscribed after, say, july first, may not be included--- if those people can resend their email addresses, i'd appreciate it---- i will be reentering the list in the next week into the netscape communicator 4.0's address book over the next two weeks--- thanks so much for your indulgence of bandwidth for this message----- i hope that in the future my computer situation will run more smoothly and look forward to publishing more poetry electronically--- also--- in hard copy through potes & poets press, four books are being published at this moment---they will be available solely through small press distribution, whose address is 1371 seventh st, berkeley ca, 94710---tel. for orders-- 1-800-869-7553--- the four are---- continuous discontinuous -- andrew levy -- $13.50 -- poetry, book two of levy's curve project catfishes & jackals -- susan smith nash -- $12 -- a collection of plays falling in love falling in love with you syntax -- sheila e. murphy -- $16.50 -- a selected and new poems echoes -- dennis barone -- $14 -- a collection of short stories only levy's book is available now, the others are 'at the printer', but should be available by october first--- out---- peter ganick ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 13:55:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Subtext Seattle reading change Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't think there are Seattle area folks on the list who don't already receive Subtext e-mail, though I could be wrong, but Anyway, for the record, (& for any of you who have already made your travel plans) the October 16th reading previously announced as Ezra Mark and Jeff Derksen has been been changed to Ezra Mark & Tom Raworth. Derksen was unable to come out to the West Coast at that time, but we will reschedule a reading by him for a later date. Thanks to the folks at the Kootenay School of Writing for fortuitously scheduling a reading by Tom Raworth for that weekend & of course to Raworth for being flexible in his travel arrangements. &, hey, does anyone have a working URL for a KSW Web site? The one at wimsey doesn't seem to work. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Sep 1997 23:00:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It was broadcast on British radio prior to the big performance i found it far more moving than a bucket of figs L ---------- > From: aldon l. nielsen > > has anyone else read Ted Hughes's poem in honor of Di? appears in this > morning's LA Times -- Last line was exemplary of . . . well, you can guess > > perhaps it wasn't his best effort, as it wasn't quite a state occasion? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 06:16:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: pome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You can read the Hughes effort at http://www.bbc.co.uk:80/politics97/diana/poem.html But buckle your seat belt--it really is painfully twee. Rachel Loden > aldon l. nielsen wrote: > has anyone else read Ted Hughes's poem in honor of Di? appears in this > morning's LA Times -- Last line was exemplary of . . . well, you can guess > > perhaps it wasn't his best effort, as it wasn't quite a state occasion? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Sep 1997 13:01:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robintm@TRAUMAFDN.ORG Subject: Re: computer woes and potes & poets and ZINEFOUR Comments: To: potepoet@home.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Peter-- Sounds like you've been dealing with disaster. I send along my heartfelt sympathies (and I'm going to back-up my drive right after I send this message!!!) I'm resending the two poems you accepted for ZINEFOUR. Please also resubscribe me if my address was one that fell over the precipice. many thanks & good luck, Robin composition dearly. meaning hovers above a child's mouth rimmed in roses wanting. my own desire interstices (my hungry chops). O's beauty against backdrop of desert sand his black the blue pride causes stares. familiar if discomfiting town squares, which are round, a central park flanked by square, chunky houses shades of white. snow falls while we're there to cover things up or underline. little houses of death. I've lost words. couldn't come up with "cameo," dialect," or a firend's (an end to fire, flame?) name. parturition. closed systems assert their authority. my anger bubbling over beyond through. his letter soft as butter. enter a woman's brain and sex cohabitating, terrestrial & heavenly upheaval. silence the illogica evidence ignorance's gaping hole. Once there was the enveloping body and the enveloped body, the latter being the more mobile through what Aristotle termed locomotion (since maternity does not look much like "motion" little licks and lover's bites. the man slips sex for six. the child nurses and I (mother). am aroused. juncture when pain is and hover between just before dropping or loss. bleeds. a grecian pattern the boundaries woman(ing) the man leaves you could cover a dark suit suite my body presses his into an interior body beyond some other word ****************************************************************************** record for joan & lily on the 9 to or from work. beauty of a device records thoughts. random captivity. mind out for groceries rent territorial positions or absence. power stations abandon landscape baby receives and telegraphs emotional content. worldly vibrato. racked the reviewer noted the writer winter charted the collapse of a marriage woman in the widest sense more than the sum of her parts. acts of continental drift naked bodies seem bodiless scaling walls there are veils everywhere rimmed around you awaken stenographer at heart hotel janitor hand-me-down silver after fire syphllis adultery genetic bequest her dead heroin addict son man brother sweet baby daddy's whipping boy others administer patient-controlled-analgesic. teaspoons of water. they take it out--ovaries, uterus. an archive for organs which might 'have to' sometime I put it (lifting center to lips) the irreducible is a dream that rises to surface a catechism I can say if they can't doubt looked her in the eye or grazed the student-body. all those O's lingering below the surface my mouth my hands endlessly. like a baby can explain. astrology for medicine the nation animal husbandry. ( he used udder or mammary.) dna and if a device records thoughts become quiescent. as we duplicate sheep ourselves or russian nesting dolls my nipples swollen from having been pulled small blood oranges in a bowl it makes no account of itself. every universe is in postures of release at neighborhood cafes youth calls attention as I begin to leave that hallway lipstick changes my coloring and the attention I get Robin Tremblay-McGaw Robin Tremblay-McGaw Information Services Director Trauma Foundation Pacific Center for Violence Prevention ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 11:19:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: Poetry at WebDelSol Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain POETRY at WebDelSol Web Del Sol at http://www.webdelsol.com presents the Fall 1997 Issue. Four new superb collections of poetry and prose poetry by Martine Bellen, Russell Edson, Peter Gizzi, and Kim Addonizio. Also new works of poetry and other writing from North American Review, The Prose Poem, The Literary Review, AGNI, and Conjunctions. Other poet collections at WDS include those of David Ignatow, Dorriane Laux, and Kristy Nielsen. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 09:46:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Small Press Traffic's literary soiree In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Small Press Traffic is pleased to announce the third of its popular Literary Soiree benefits to be held on Sunday, September 14, 1997. This year's event promises to be one of the most varied gatherings of writers that Small Press Traffic has ever assembled. The public is invited to an afternoon of food, drink and music in the company of Greil Marcus, author of Lipstick Traces, Mystery Train, and Invisible Republic: Bob Dylan's Basement Tapes; Edward Espe Brown, author of Tomato Blessings and Radish Teachings and co-author of the well known Greens Cookbook; Terry Castle, author of The Apparitional Lesbian and Noel Coward & Radclyffe Hall; Edith Jenkins, author of Against a Field Sinister and Divisions on a Ground; Wendy Lesser, editor of The Threepenny Review and author of Pictures at an Execution: An Inquiry into the Subject of Murder; and Julie Shigekuni, winner of the 1997 PEN Oakland award for the novel A Bridge Between Us. This year's soiree will once again be held at a gracious San Francisco home from 4:00 to 7:00 p.m. A tax-deductible donation of $40 - $60 is requested. For information and reservations, call (415) 437-3454. This year's event will also include Small Press Traffic's second literary auction. Items to be auctioned include manuscript pages and signed works by such writers as Edward Albee, Martin Amis, Djuna Barnes, Ann Beattie, Merce Cunningham, Don DeLillo, Rita Dove, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Nadine Gordimer, Erica Jong, Galway Kinnell, Peter Matthiessen, Iris Murdoch, George Oppen, Adrienne Rich, James Schuyler, and Wallace Stegner, among others. Backchannel if you're interested in receiving the text of the auction catalogue (54k). Small Press Traffic was founded in 1974 by a group of writers and individuals who saw the need for an outlet for new and experimental writers and small press publications. From being primarily a bookstore, Small Press Traffic has evolved into a presenting organization sponsoring writing workshops and readings throughout the year, with special attention to emerging writers. Small Press Traffic's new home at New College will also house SPT's resource center and literary archive, scheduled to open this Fall. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 16:41:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: new releases from burning press Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ----------------------------------------------------------------- BURNING PRESS announces the publications of our 2 latest: ----------------------------------------------------------------- SWARMS OF FUGUE by Jake Berry, illustrated by the author 25 pages - $4.00 ppd. ----------------------------------------------------------------- SEQUENCE by Nico Vassilakis, afterword by Marvin Sackner 26 pages, handbound - $8.00 ppd. ----------------------------------------------------------------- & still available: BLACK FIRE by John Byrum - $5.00 MOUTH WATCH by Kristen Ban Tepper - $4.00 LAND OF SCOUNDRELS by Fabio Doctorovich - $7.00 WAS AH by John M. Bennett - $4.00 I, A SERIES by Mark DuCharme - $6.00 INVISIBLE ARIA by Tom Beckett - $4.00 BABBALLY by Miekal And - $30.00 Checks to: BURNING PRESS, PO Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107 Queries to luigi: au462@cleveland.freenet.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 23:56:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: upon their return MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - To a T Time for the scythe, time for the reaper Time for the mowing which loses the lawn - Torn to the right, paper is deeper Than the homegrown print, than the home-grown lawn. Then turn the home towards the metal deeper in paper Timed towards torn flux, you know about the trace, The ash, the bark, the tree, the foliage, The paper of redwoods, sequoia, taller paper, Taller than others, timed for the furrow, Tinned for the moment, this memo torn from the pad, Torn from the bedroom, kitchen, bath or closet, Turned towards you from my torn lawn, Torn paper deeper than you've torn my screen into. ______________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Sep 1997 21:18:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: upon their return Alan, this is exactly what I've been looking for. Just got finished adding eye of newt, socks of tennis and claw of spotted owl to my brew to sprinkle over the grounds of Georgia Pacific but damned if I could find a ready to print forest of household news. Added your page and the mixture and it bubbled noxiously poetent (not what you had in mind perhaps but hell I've used my belt buckle for adjusting my distributor - ). Thanx. red To a T Time for the scythe, time for the reaper Time for the mowing which loses the lawn - Torn to the right, paper is deeper Than the homegrown print, than the home-grown lawn. Then turn the home towards the metal deeper in paper Timed towards torn flux, you know about the trace, The ash, the bark, the tree, the foliage, The paper of redwoods, sequoia, taller paper, Taller than others, timed for the furrow, Tinned for the moment, this memo torn from the pad, Torn from the bedroom, kitchen, bath or closet, Turned towards you from my torn lawn, Torn paper deeper than you've torn my screen into. ______________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 01:52:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: a poem of Han-Shan's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT some list denizens w/ longish memory may recollect my semi-coherent mutterings abt. principles of translation w.r.t. an attempt at a poem of Han Shan's of late I've redone (yet again) said 8-liner; here's showing same -- the grammar (from word order) follows the original closely cheerio d.i. notes: sit - may be, to sit in meditation ("Han Shan" ["cold moountain"] is the locale where this Tang dynasty Chinese poet repaired for a life of solitude); yellow springs - the underworld, a conventional euphemism ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ | Once I went | to sit at Cold Mountain | & lingeringly | remained these thirty years | of late I came | to call on pals & kinsmen | more than half | begone to the yellow springs | | so gradually fading | as does to the guttering candle | how long aflowing | alike the meandering river | this morningtide | aface a lonesome shadow | unwontedly | the tears twainsome dangle Han Shan ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [trans. (c) david raphael israel 1997] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 07:06:52 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Writing experiments Content-Type: text/plain Dear List: (Please excuse/let me now if this is a redundant request or topic) Recently someone asked for help in locating B. Mayers writing experiments. I similarly would like some help-- I started a new writing workshop-- 1/3 time reading poems I bring to class (contemporary poets),2/3 time writing in-class-- and was wondering if everyone could send their favorite writing experiment/exercise to the list-- or make one up-- or send many ideas. And if it has an accompaning "model" poem, please tell me where I could find it. I have collected alot of these over time, with multiple and endless variations, and it would be great to get some fresh ideas. I will post one of my faves latter... Thanks a bunch-- HOa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:39:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Writing experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hoa -- > if everyone could send their favorite writing experiment/exercise to > the list-- or make one up-- or send many ideas. in case you're not aware of the volume, you might wish to look at the book that collected many & varied exercises (and discussions of same) from a range of American poets -- I don't recall the title, but the volume was published just a few years ago. Co-edited by poets Chase Twitchell & one other. (It was mentioned on Poetics some time ago.) d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:57:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Mirakove Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: <199709091540.LAA06106@radagast.wizard.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Sep 1997, David R. Israel wrote: > in case you're not aware of the volume, you might wish to look at the > book that collected many & varied exercises (and discussions of same) > from a range of American poets -- I don't recall the title, but the > volume was published just a few years ago. Co-edited by poets Chase > Twitchell & one other. (It was mentioned on Poetics some time ago.) > > d.i. The other editor is Robin Behn and the title is The Practice of Poetry. Some of the experiments are okay but the Twitchell/Behn compilation doesn't touch the Mayer/Bernstein list. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:06:47 MST7MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: <19970909140652.10017.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Hoa wrttts: > was wondering if everyone could send their favorite writing > experiment/exercise to the list-- or make one up-- or send > many ideas. And if it has an accompaning "model" poem, > please tell me where I could find it. well, not to stifle any list activity that this might provoke=97I'd certainly be interested to talk abt. procedure with you folks=97but there's a good list @: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/documents/experiments.html (EPC-authors-Bernstein-poetry "experiments") =97a compilation of stuff that includes at least some (dunno how much) of the B. Mayer suggestions... I'd also suggest making yr kids buy Chain #4, which is the (whatever it's called) "procedures" (?) issue, & shld be very useful in both opening discussion & "inspiring young minds". it's certainly something I'd do if I were teaching right now. the useful thing in this context is that many of the wrtrs have appended a brief note on procedure attached, including those by Jackson Mac Low, Dodie Bellamy & Joel Felix, Jeremy Caplan, Tina Darragh, Dan Featherston... the list goes on but I won't. & it's a good chance to support the 'zine, too (&, for that matter, a good chance to mention the, "ahem", economics of contemporary poetry...) I'll share one procedure that I've used, though it's certainly nothing new: ex-listee Matthias Regan & I were=97that is, until he lost 'is email, moving to SF 'n all=97doing collaborative work in which we'd take turns assembling & transforming found texts. in other words, for instance, I wld cobble something together out of various sources that intrigued me=97I think my last one was in 2 parts, the first being selected sentences from a book on the programming language Perl 5, & the second lifted from the "autobiographical" interview with Charles Bernstein in the most recent Boundary 2 (I love #s)=97& send it to him as is. then he'd perform a series of free transformations & interpolations, adding lines, substituting or moving words, re-lineating the text, & so forth=97& then send it to me for similar "treatment". when I say "free", more precisely what I mean is that transformations cld be of any nature=97i.e., phonetic, graphical, conceptual etc.=97& there was no limit to their # or severity, or the amount of text he cld add/subtract. so, not "free", really=97let's just say that this isn't work that used "generative constraints" or even firm rules. the exercise ended when we agreed that the poem was "finished", i.e., when both of us were satisfied with it=97 though, in truth, the game is much more process- than product-oriented, &, while I like the work that came out of it, much of its excitement for me was its agonistic character. I've wondered what it wld be like to have this kind of negotiation with someone I don't know so well... also, I have examples, but I'll have to dig them out... Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 11:50:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Writing experiments I think this may be well known and understood but for what...In group exercises I've always favored those that began with the question, "What resources do the participants actually bring to the project? What different levels of expertise in various experience areas do we have in the room?" By this I do not mean writing experience, but various techne from the student's lives that might be brought into an exercise. From that information, both collective and individual exercises may be developed which play upon various ways of having students bring those experiences into the project. When that knowledge pool is known (say needleworking, aviation mechanics, linebackers (always those), the one who just buried their father, and so forth) then interesting exercises may be devised by orchestrating those talents rather than starting from the position that the exercise (individualized and technical) must come first and the talent/experiences realized and revealed secondarily through the product. (needleworkers, incidently, seem to be terrific at meter) a small example: an avid reader of comic books was assigned the task of writing an imaginary train wreck. Predictably the result resembled several pages of wheels, sprockets, screetches, frozen tableau, thought baloons. Good imagery (powerful, clipped, visual), atrocious construction and a Toys R' Us collection of odds and ends. The piece was next given to a carpenter (who recently changed specialties from house building to cabinet making) with the instruction to treat the first material as if he had just gone to the lumber yard for materials. Using mainly those materials and some connectives and prepositions and so forth - construct the cabinetry and appliances for a kitchen sink. I don't have the piece anymore but I do recall the line "bubbling foam shot from her throat". red ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 12:53:24 -0700 Reply-To: wmarsh@nunic.nu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: william marsh Organization: National University Subject: Re: Writing experiments / collaboration / agony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit in truth, the game is much more process- than > product-oriented, &, while I like the work that came out > of it, much of its excitement for me was its agonistic > character. I've wondered what it wld be like to have > this kind of negotiation with someone I don't know > so well... > > also, I have examples, but I'll have to dig them out... > > Chris > .. Chris much interest in reading about your collaborative process / thanks / two things as well in your post interest me: the idea of collaboration (especially using email) with someone you "don't know so well" / this past year i worked with a friend in Vancouver (carl peters, also a list-member) on a collaborative back-and-forth e-essay on Keats and Wordsworth (must admit it was mostly carl's enthusiasm that carried the piece) which was something very new for me / email affords that opportunity for rapid transfer and -lation that may not work so well via snail-correspondence / anyway, the only way i know carl is through email (met very briefly at the Blaser conference a couple summers back), and i'm sure others on the list have similar e-friendships that offer interesting opportunities for this kind of quasi-distant collaboration also, the "agonistic" nature of the collaborative process, which of late i've considered applicable to the writing process in general: roughly, the coil-recoil of "agonistic" and "antagonistic" forces played out in dramatic (?) fashion in the construction of a work / did a little research a while back on the early greek meanings of "agon" but haven't the notes handy / maybe someone else...? bill marsh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:47:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Clay Subject: Drucker on artists' books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Johanna Drucker's landmark study 'The Century of Artists' Books' is now out in paperback! The cover blurb: "This is the first full-length study of the development of artists' books as a twentieth century artform. This work situates artists' books within the context of mainstream developments in the visual arts from Russian Futurism and Surrealism to Fluxus, Conceptual Art, to Postmodernism. Topics include the discussion of the poetics of the book, the book as a metaphor, the conceptual space of the book, and books as narrative and non-narrative sequences. The book provides a foundation for future work in the history and critical interpretation of artists' books as well as offering a structure for teaching artists' books to practitioners, collectors and curators." Don't miss this one. 377 pp. 200+ black & white photographs. $24.95 (+ sales tax in New York) and $6.00 postage. *****Poetics list subscribers take a 20% discount = $20 (+ appropriate sales tax + shipping)**** Published by Granary Books 568 Broadway #403 New York, NY 10012 212 226-5462 sclay@interport.net ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 19:30:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Writing experiments Kinesthetic Palimpsest Exercise: write a poem (or copy over the top of one you find particularly emotion producing) on top of a stack of #16 or #18 paper with a sturdy ballpoint (bic works fine) taking care to bear down as phrases or fragments evoke feelings in you and less pressure where they don't. Remove the top sheet, locate and copy over the tracing left on the undersheet. Compress or arrange as you like and use just those in the next layer of palimpsest. Stop when almost every word can be clearly seen on the under page or, up the ante and use two-sheets between layers. red. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 07:58:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: writing experiment This is a simple writing experiment appropriate for any writing class, from primary grades through senior citizen. All you need is a pencil, a sheet of paper, a pair of pliers, a toothpick, an old transistor radio, and a group of enthusiastic would-be writers. First, place the paper and writing implement (i.e. the pencil) on a solid, flat surface. Take the pliers & smash or pry off the plastic frame of the radio (yard sale radios are cheap and work fine). Use the toothpick and pliers to create a nifty brain-antennae by attaching to handy forehead area of the writer. Pull out the transistor section of the radio and attach as best you can to the toothpick. After making sure the batteries are still functional, turn on the radio. Set volume to medium - not too loud. Now - using the pencil and paper, write down whatever comes through. You can switch channels, adjust the volume, whatever helps you in the writing process. Once you have mastered this nifty experimental technique, you can teach it to others. Flairie McDougal, of the Writelit Project in East Lansing, MI, has produced an entire anthology of brain transistor poetry, titled HEAD SWITCH - POETRY FROM FOUR HUNDRED FOREHEADS, which will be available soon from Univ. of Left Overbie Press. Reserve your head trips now - only $24.95 pre-ordered. Special to list members. & try it yourself! It works! Try AM 630 in Detroit - especially good for inspiration! (Jeannie Klappert heard the voice of Di there!) - Jack Spandrift ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 08:32:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: Misc. Proj. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'd like to point everyone in the direction of a very useful discussion between David Shapiro and Joseph Lease about the role of the "I" in poetry that appeared in the new issue of the Mark Prejsnar edited newsletter Misc. Proj. Mark's lurking around the list here somewhere, and I'd encourage you to contact him about the newsletter. There's been intriguing poetry and critical writing in each issue, but the Lease and Shapiro exchange (originally an e-mail discussion, I take it) seems particularly timely and useful. Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:18:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: a poem of Han-Shan's/Poetics Digest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David (Israel!) -- I remember your earlier postings re Han Shan poem and like all, this last version stellar. On an unrelated note, I've been re-reading Fenollosa and wonder if you might shed some light on his emphasis on verbs in the Chinese language -- is the action, or relation, between agents really the primary focus of Chinese words, as he maintains? Back-channel would be appreciated! Thanks -- and also to Red for that great expertise-milking exercise. Susan Susan Wheeler wheeler@is.nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:27:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: b.t.w. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT esteemed poetas, when I first saw this msg., I almost trashed it. But as I read beyond the first few words, it got good. Thought you'all might find it of passing interest. d.i. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:42:12 +0000 From: William Limbacher Subject: (Fwd) virus alert (fwd) This just in : NEW VIRUS WARNING If you see a message on the boards with a subject line of "Badtimes," delete it immediately WITHOUT reading it. This is the most dangerous virus yet. It will re-write your hard drive. Not only that, but it will scramble any disks that are even close to your computer (20' range at 72 farenheit). It will recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so all your ice cream melts and milk curdles . It will demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards, reprogram your ATM access code, screw up the tracking on your VCR and use subspace field harmonics to scratch any CDs you try to play. It will give your ex-boy/girlfriend your new phone number. It will program your phone autodial to call only your mother's number. It will mix antifreeze into your fish tank. It will drink all your beer and leave its dirty socks on the coffee table when there's company coming over. It will hide your car keys when you are late for work and interfere with your car radio so that you hear 1940's hits and static while stuck in traffic. "Badtimes" will make you fall in love with a hardened pedophile. It will give you nightmares about circus midgets. It will replace your shampoo with Nair and your Nair with Rogaine, all while dating your current boy/girlfriend behind your back and billing their hotel rendezvous to your Visa card. It will seduce your grandmother. It does not matter if she is dead, such is the power of "Badtimes", it reaches out beyond the grave to sully those things we hold most dear. It will rewrite your back-up files, changing all your active verbs to passive tense and incorporating undetectable misspellings which grossly change the interpretation of key sentences. "Badtimes" will give you Dutch Elm disease. It will leave the toilet seat up and leave the hairdryer plugged in dangerously close to a full bathtub. It will wantonly remove the forbidden tags from your mattresses and pillows, and refill your skim milk with whole. It is insidious and subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. It is also a rather interesting shade of mauve. These are just a few signs. Be very, very afraid. PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!!! ----------------------- Fritz fritzzz@mail.com ----------------------- Two rules for living a successful life: (1) Don't tell everything you know. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 05:37:26 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin In-Reply-To: <97Sep8.180633hwt.588262(8)@relay1.Hawaii.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I do not feel like commenting on Ted Hughes's poem for Di-- I have nto read it (although that never stopped a cultural critic/anxious poet), but I would like to say a few meandering words about a mass media poem now inscribed in the domains on "global popular culture" (namely, our collective whitmanic heads): "Candle in the Wind." Now I realize that trope of fugitive delicacy is not gong to win any vanguard-metaphor awards, but I must admit that the funereal combinatio n of that passage from Corinthians on caritas, the Elton John canonization-of-a-goddess lyric, and the scathing and oblique funeral oration were quite moving to me. I would invoke some term like 'ecclesiastical sublime' to describe it, but here my lapsed-catholic childhood and array of car accident deaths would enter in and I do not want to bore you with personal specifics. But I must say that, in hearing Elton John translate the 1973 version of his/Bernie Taupin's lyric for Marily Monroe into a song for "England's rose" whose face is written in the stars and whose feet "forver trod on England's greenest hills," I was amazed how the Monroe-subtext got laundered out in almost all respects. The whole critique of predatory media hounding MM to death, gazing at her naked dead body, feastin on her pain and so on (as well as her own complicity in that apparatus of celebrity glamor-mongering) was completely sublimated into a hymn to a people's princess, a goddess of immortal beauty, a fugitive spirit passing through the spendid machinery of god, church, and UK nationhood. Now I take my neo-platonism wherever I can find it, from Smokey Robinson to Bleu Velvet, but I must admit that the previous lyric of ye old Elton/Bernie (unless I filter it in as some kind of hidden subtext) had much more punch to it, pathos with a kind of rage and contempt (which Elton later had to displace on to Madonna, who ca handle it). So that poem goes into the public domain, and i am glad for it much more than for any work by Ted Hughes I must admit, but I just wonder about well say the complicity of such banal metaphors and soporific sublimity in creating a mood that made, say, Christopher Hitchens "puke all week" as he watched the rescue of the House of Windsor by (ironically) the House of Spencer (Elton John playing Edmund Spencer for the Fairie Queen of our aristocratic nostalgia to worship those of breeding "to beauty bred"). While I am going on a bit long about self-translatoin/translation, I have a brief question for David Raphael Israel translating Han Shan's "Cold Moutain" poems. I have read and took to my language-ridden heart the gary Snyder "Cold Mountain" poems in his translatoin (is it from around 1965? Kerouach has Japhy Rhyder (GS) working on them in "Dharma Bums which ends up a la Han Shan "sitting" in the mountains of Desolation Peak Washington or some such). Snyder's translations had a gnarled, raunchy, collquial, idiomatic twist to each phrase. I find your version a bit archaic in diction, with all kinds of Augustan inversions and word choices. What is the gain in such a translatoin by you? Are you pushing Han Shan towards a kind of formality of diction, a kind of high style phrasing? A student of mine, Steve Bradbury, was long working on Ho Chimin's poems, and wanted to bring back some of the formality/wit he felt American translators were losing in their moves from Chinese language into a quasi-Whitmanic free verse (see the issue of boundary 2 with those devious Bernstein/Mayer language experiments in it and the self-translation of Charles Bernstein by Charles Berstein into the "interview genre of selfhood" a la Paris Review). I have already taken too much of your computer space. Regards from the enclaves of bad and devious prose, Rob Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:14:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" rob, i'm happy you've seen fit to mention ej's rerendering of "candle in the wind"... personally, i too was moved, muchly, by blair/john/and the earl... i mean, moved beyond my sense of being exploited, or of exploitation taking place, or of sheer bombastic global media event, or of some presumed tragic realization of a monarchy in the throes... in fact, and though as you know i generally like hitchens, i found the moment completely absorbing, felt not a whit like puking... in fact i was all welled-up!... and in fact i prefer john's new version to the old!---i prefer it being about di's death than about mm's, even w/o the gay subtext that i assume forms part of the positive response to this tune... anyway, i found mself thinking about why our various publics, me too, seem to need this oportunity to grieve---just assuming for a split-second that this desire hasn't exactly been foisted onto us... i mean, publics such as the u.s., which, it seems, do so little in the way of mourning, have in so many cases converted funerals and death and such like into yet another exercise in fast-food (yeah) convenience (monty python once riffed on this, as i recall)... i'm not sure the answer is to be found in global theater, either... i think there may be a very real need---dare i say human-societal need?---to come to terms with the significance of what many of my students call 'passing'... at the grocery check-out line last saturday eve, kass and i chatted with the cashier, who told us she'd been watching "too much funeral"... and then she paused, saying ain't it weird, though? be interested in what other folks think, esp. you folks on that side of the atlantic... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:18:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin In-Reply-To: Message of 09/10/97 at 05:37:26 from rwilson@HAWAII.EDU Good posting from Rob Wilson on Elton John's sublimation of Marilyn in Princess Di BUT please let's not confuse our Spen(s)(c)ers: Edmund Spenser-with-an-s might have been an intellecutal pimp for the Faerie Queene, but he's not an an- cestor of the Spencers-with-a-c who so obligingly freshened up the Windsor gene pool with those tall blonde genes of theirs. Credit where credit's due, like- wise blame. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:21:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1. rob wilson: "I do not feel like commenting on Ted Hughes's poem for Di-- I have not read it" So, here it is: Mankind is many rivers That only want to run. Holy Tragedy and Loss Make the many One. Mankind is a Holy, crowned Mother and her Son. For worship, for mourning: God is here, is gone. Love is broken on the Cross. The Flower on the Gun. 2."I must admit that the previous lyric of ye old Elton/Bernie (unless I filter it in as some kind of hidden subtext) had much more punch to it, pathos with a kind of rage and contempt" Still, Elton John is an exemplary modernist or pomod/ in recycling an earlier song and setting up the Marilyn/Diana equation thanks to the ghost of the earlier text. Timothy Materer, 228 Tate Hall, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:37:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Badtimes Sampler OO h h h h h h m y y yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? Actually I tried it - worked wonderfully. All things nicht & noxious now eliminated from my life. Small side-effect successfully managed by tethering milk and ice-cream at bottom of pond and tying other end to nearby chaise lounge. Computer residue sent to Museum of Modern Art for next installation. Pedophile paradox negotiated by falling for midget pedophile. She found my nightmares so arousing that she has successfully realligned her predeliction to target Epstein-Barr comic illustrators. As soon as I finish my "Be An Artist In Your Own Home Guaranteed" correspondence course we plan to be married. This version of Badtimes set only to transfer you bank accounts to Red Slider, Ink. and soap your windows. If you'd like the full version please send what's left of your spare change to Badway distributors c/o my po box. thank you, Red Slider Badtimes Distributor & Artist-in-Residue ---------- From: David R. Israel[SMTP:davidi@MAIL.WIZARD.NET] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 8:27 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: b.t.w. esteemed poetas, when I first saw this msg., I almost trashed it. But as I read beyond the first few words, it got good. Thought you'all might find it of passing interest. d.i. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 9 Sep 1997 20:42:12 +0000 From: William Limbacher Subject: (Fwd) virus alert (fwd) This just in : NEW VIRUS WARNING If you see a message on the boards with a subject line of "Badtimes," delete it immediately WITHOUT reading it. This is the most dangerous virus yet. It will re-write your hard drive. Not only that, but it will scramble any disks that are even close to your computer (20' range at 72 farenheit). It will recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so all your ice cream melts and milk curdles . It will demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards, reprogram your ATM access code, screw up the tracking on your VCR and use subspace field harmonics to scratch any CDs you try to play. It will give your ex-boy/girlfriend your new phone number. It will program your phone autodial to call only your mother's number. It will mix antifreeze into your fish tank. It will drink all your beer and leave its dirty socks on the coffee table when there's company coming over. It will hide your car keys when you are late for work and interfere with your car radio so that you hear 1940's hits and static while stuck in traffic. "Badtimes" will make you fall in love with a hardened pedophile. It will give you nightmares about circus midgets. It will replace your shampoo with Nair and your Nair with Rogaine, all while dating your current boy/girlfriend behind your back and billing their hotel rendezvous to your Visa card. It will seduce your grandmother. It does not matter if she is dead, such is the power of "Badtimes", it reaches out beyond the grave to sully those things we hold most dear. It will rewrite your back-up files, changing all your active verbs to passive tense and incorporating undetectable misspellings which grossly change the interpretation of key sentences. "Badtimes" will give you Dutch Elm disease. It will leave the toilet seat up and leave the hairdryer plugged in dangerously close to a full bathtub. It will wantonly remove the forbidden tags from your mattresses and pillows, and refill your skim milk with whole. It is insidious and subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. It is also a rather interesting shade of mauve. These are just a few signs. Be very, very afraid. PLEASE FORWARD THIS MESSAGE TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW!!! ----------------------- Fritz fritzzz@mail.com ----------------------- Two rules for living a successful life: (1) Don't tell everything you know. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:54:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin 2."I must admit that the previous lyric of ye old Elton/Bernie (unless I filter it in as some kind of hidden subtext) had much more punch to it, pathos with a kind of rage and contempt" Still, Elton John is an exemplary modernist or pomod/ in recycling an earlier song and setting up the Marilyn/Diana equation thanks to the ghost of the earlier text. Timothy Materer, 228 Tate Hall, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim He does not qualify as bricoleur, though, since he's essentially recycling his own prior fabrications - junk engineering I'd say. red ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:02:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin/Mounds Bar Connection In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Isn't "ecclesiastically sublime" the catch-phrase from the ad campaign for the MOUNDS candy bar? Don Rob Wilson wrote: >from Corinthians on caritas, the Elton John canonization-of-a-goddess >lyric, and the scathing and oblique funeral oration were quite moving to >me. I would invoke some term like 'ecclesiastical sublime' to describe >it, but here my lapsed-catholic childhood and array of car accident deaths =================================== Don Cheney San Diego, CA, USA http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791 doncheney@geocities.com =================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 10:14:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: still at large It still remains that we need to locate the negatives of the final exposure - they ought be transferred at once to the Vatican catacombs and stored with the sepulchre of you-know-who. red ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:34:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Misc. Proj, missed projection mess process MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This morning I back-channelled Mark Wallace to thank him for the nice plug re: Misc. Proj. #3... It just occured to me that I should reiterate the info folks need to order it: single issue--$1.00 subscription to 4 issues--$3.50 Make all checks out to Mark Prejsnar. and send to 641 N. Highland Ave. NE, #11 Atlanta, GA 30306 ******************************* The issue includes mag and book reviews and new writing by David Shapiro, Joseph Lease, Sheila Murphy, Peter Ganick, John Lowther and others. thanx again to Mark Wallace, whose own mag, Situation, is one of the brighter entities illuminating the current scene... Mark Prejsnar Atlanta ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:48:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Misc. Proj, missed projection mess process In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hello Mark, et al so where do we write for a copy of this Situation thing that Wallace edits? And does anyone know if Wallace's "Towards a Free Multiplicity of Forms" essay is still available on line? I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Mark Prejsnar wrote: > This morning I back-channelled Mark Wallace to thank him for the nice plug > re: Misc. Proj. #3... > > It just occured to me that I should reiterate the info folks need to order > it: > > single issue--$1.00 > subscription to 4 issues--$3.50 > > Make all checks out to Mark Prejsnar. > and send to > > 641 N. Highland Ave. NE, #11 > Atlanta, GA 30306 > > ******************************* > The issue includes mag and book reviews and new writing by David Shapiro, > Joseph Lease, Sheila Murphy, Peter Ganick, John Lowther and others. > > thanx again to Mark Wallace, whose own mag, Situation, is one of the > brighter entities illuminating the current scene... > > Mark Prejsnar > Atlanta > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:01:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin my god. this hughes poem is W R E T C H E D!!!! please, don't put something like that up without a "Could Be Dangerous To Your Health" warning timothy! but thanks for putting it up anyway. re diana spencer's death, it has hit me horribly, i think because we are the same age, and i (along with many women i know) have gone through much of what she has in certain ways, so there is empathy along female lines (rejection, elation, work/children, betrayal, public betrayal, revenge, etc). we have all been discussing alot. it is hard to talk about past a certain level, sort of liek the anita hill/clarence thomas and the oj thing. one gets to a level of pain that is very silencing. her brother's funeral oration, in that it spoke the unspeakable, gave voice to so many strands of what was happening in a raw, honest kind of way, was extraordinary. i wept watching, and i don't often weep. i work in hospice, and it has been a very very bad week (lost five patients this week, one very close, one fairly close) and so i speak from position of one immersed in funerals/death. but it is, from my perspective, rare for anyone to be so blazingly honest, and strong about confronting tasks for future and their roots in past. all too often, the gilding comes out. as for saving house of windsor, i think the queen has come out of this looking pathetically (almost) awful, charles even worse, and so i wouldn't really say the house of windsor was saved by it all. the children were always fetching, photogenic, and charming, and have continued to be so. the only difference is that it is clear, now, that they are the future, not prince charles. my biggest dilemna has been the tabloids. i always read them in grocery store lines, and now i feel too uncomfortable to do that. on the one hand, it is good to see celebs punctured -- frank gifford, for example, after the Moral Majority stance he seemed to assume, as well as kathy lee's stunning openness and pain as betrayed wife have brought the issue out to the public as nothing else has in a long time. but on the other, the kind of stalking princess diana suffered was hideous. david bromiges' post was, as always, brilliant other side. i am now working out in my mind alot of thoughts about public and private life, what shoudl be what... e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 11:00:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: Re: Misc. Proj, missed projection mess process In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, Mark Wallace's essay "Towards a Free Multiplicity of Form" is still online at http://www.crl.com/~creiner/witz/form.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:36:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin In-Reply-To: <199709101801.OAA20963@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i was visiting my brother in the L.A. area this weekend and we were in the supermarket (Stater bros.), standing in the checkout line and he pointed to the empty slots where the tabloids used to be and stated that the supermarket was boycotting them because of Princess Di's death. then he pointed to the liquor area of the store and pointed out that that was still FULL UP, not taken off the shelves in protest. as i understand it, the driver of the car was hammered, three times over the french legal limit for blood/alcohol level. don >my biggest dilemna >has been the tabloids. i always read them in grocery store lines, and now >i feel too uncomfortable to do that. on the one hand, it is good to see >celebs punctured -- frank gifford, for example, after the Moral Majority >stance he seemed to assume, as well as kathy lee's stunning openness and >pain as betrayed wife have brought the issue out to the public as nothing >else has in a long time. but on the other, the kind of stalking princess >diana suffered was hideous. david bromiges' post was, as always, brilliant >other side. i am now working out in my mind alot of thoughts about public >and private life, what shoudl be what... >e =================================== Don Cheney San Diego, CA, USA http://www.geocities.com/Paris/5791 doncheney@geocities.com =================================== ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 12:12:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Pavement for a Dead Princess - readablility Martin Hickle informed me that the pavement background for "Pavement for a Dead Princess" was hard/impossible to read on some browsers. I have put a link in the original to a second copy without the background. Try again if you had problems the first time - my appologies. red. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 14:34:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Ber Comments: To: rob wilson MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Rob: I certainly agree with your comments on the sublimation process at work in John's new version - it smacks of the kind of defensive revision/repression Wordsworth performed in _The Prelude_ for instance and which Yeats was known for as well. And, too, one can't fail to notice the Blakean allusion in John's line about "England's green hills," equating Diana with Christ himself! In the unwieldy effort to conflate these two disparate icons, a certain necessary elision must take place I suppose. I marvelled not only at how swiftly D's apotheosis took place, but also at where it occured: at the intersection of royal tradition and pop fetishization. Appended is a poem re: the media event of Diana (rather than D. herself). I happened to be studying ballads that day. Some of the quotes are from the Norton Anthology, including its footnotes; some from _On Signs_, edited by Marshall Blonsky, which contains a detailed critique of the royal wedding. ELEGAIC PASTICHE Narrative details might form a ballad about a princess or any handsome young woman "who would fain lie down." But to classify the subject by meters, focussing on a catastrophic moment, would also signal the typical betrayal and elevation of a TV loneliness as attested to by the attendance of crowds and the spectacle of roses and signatures, which are all we have really, when you come down to it. Of a loveliness that daily fed us nothing is certain but the crisis of its aftermath. It involves images of dearness, replicated many times. Kissing "the wounds that were so red." "A species of deer distinguished" by a supernal color so that its gawky movements, fabricated as they are, give us a sense that an increase in the amount of available light is what lends consumerism its tragic tone, the lieux de memoire of the "lost participatory dimension." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:57:28 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Ber Comments: To: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" In-Reply-To: <01INHBP5FBXI8ZEY8B@iix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "Of a loveliness that fed us nothing"/ "daily" your line that says it all the royals now feeding on Blake and Jesus to consecrate their own lineage once again and we can only weap and applaud in the wings of westminister abbey or more likely be cleaning the chimney sweep so that the Mercedes Benz can dematerialize into drunken light at 120MPH and we can clean up the fragments of a saint who was no Dionysisus Crucified and Elton John can suck melancholy from the rose of England Di flipping over into Saint Theresa of the orphic tombs and we should read htis whole media act "through a glass darkly" puking into Vanity Fair with some cultural critiques for good measure On Wed, 10 Sep 1997, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: > > Rob: I certainly agree with your comments on the sublimation process at work > in John's new version - it smacks of the kind of defensive > revision/repression Wordsworth performed in _The Prelude_ for instance and > which Yeats was known for as well. And, too, one can't fail to notice the > Blakean allusion in John's line about "England's green hills," equating > Diana with Christ himself! In the unwieldy effort to conflate these two > disparate icons, a certain necessary elision must take place I suppose. I > marvelled not only at how swiftly D's apotheosis took place, but also at > where it occured: at the intersection of royal tradition and pop > fetishization. > > Appended is a poem re: the media event of Diana (rather than D. herself). I > happened to be studying ballads that day. Some of the quotes are from the > Norton Anthology, including its footnotes; some from _On Signs_, edited by > Marshall Blonsky, which contains a detailed critique of the royal wedding. > > ELEGAIC PASTICHE > > Narrative details might form > a ballad about a princess > or any handsome young woman > "who would fain lie down." > But to classify the subject > by meters, focussing on > a catastrophic moment, > would also signal the typical > betrayal and elevation > of a TV loneliness > as attested to by > the attendance of crowds > and the spectacle of roses > and signatures, which are all > we have really, when you come > down to it. > Of a loveliness that daily > fed us nothing is certain > but the crisis of its aftermath. > It involves images of dearness, > replicated many times. > Kissing "the wounds that were so red." > "A species of deer distinguished" > by a supernal color > so that its gawky movements, > fabricated as they are, > give us a sense that an increase > in the amount of available light > is what lends consumerism its tragic tone, > the lieux de memoire of > the "lost participatory dimension." > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:05:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Ber In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 10 Sep 1997 09:57:28 -1000 from As I journeyed through the town of Ephesus where silver-tonged photographers drove out St. Paul (for threatening their trade in the Diana biz) I noticed in a melancholy back alley the statue of the Unknown Poet - defaced with anti-John graffiti, drowning in bouquets of infinite assembly-line Parisian ressentiment - Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 13:31:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/BernieTaupin ---------- From: Don Cheney[SMTP:doncheney@GEOCITIES.COM] Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 11:36 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/BernieTaupin i was visiting my brother in the L.A. area this weekend and we were in the supermarket (Stater bros.), standing in the checkout line and he pointed to the empty slots where the tabloids used to be and stated that the supermarket was boycotting them because of Princess Di's death. then he pointed to the liquor area of the store and pointed out that that was still FULL UP, not taken off the shelves in protest. as i understand it, the driver of the car was hammered, three times over the french legal limit for blood/alcohol level. don expect both general grocery and specialty liquor sales will show anticipated increases through third week of promotions and then fall back to normal levels. red. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 16:24:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Ber Comments: To: Henry Gould MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Dear Eric, that was pretty good! "Set phasers on pillow fight." "If an ass stares into a tabloid, don't expect a saint to stare out - except maybe sometimes." - The Pseudo-Diogenes ---------- From: Henry Gould To: POETICS Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Ber Date: Wednesday, September 10, 1997 3:30PM As I journeyed through the town of Ephesus where silver-tonged photographers drove out St. Paul (for threatening their trade in the Diana biz) I noticed in a melancholy back alley the statue of the Unknown Poet - defaced with anti-John graffiti, drowning in bouquets of infinite assembly-line Parisian ressentiment - Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:01:56 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Elton John translates Elton John/Ber MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote of Elton John's next hit < Blakean allusion in John's line about "England's green hills," equating > Diana with Christ himself! >> Maybe... it may be that he doesn't know the quote's source particularly but has come to something in the public domain associatively... this has been a good week for Elgar and Vaughan Williams. I don't think he is as consciously a maker as Yeats and Wordsworth Others than Christ will walk on the hills of the green and pleasant land... the reference DOES suggest, I think, that through the intercession of Diana - co-co-redemptress - we can build the new Jerusalem using only a small donation and a bunch of flowers Microwave the new heaven and new earth while you're in the shower getting rid of dark satanic pollution I haven't heard this week of all weeks - referenda on Scottish and Welsh Assemblies - anyone complain that the the princess of WALES is located by EJ in England Lawrence Upton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 19:20:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Ear at HERE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a slow response to a question that came up last month on the list: The Ear Inn series in New York has moved to HERE, just around the corner from the Ear, and will be continuing in October on Saturday afternoons. I hope we will be able to get the full schedule posted before too long. HERE is at 145 Sixth Avenue (near Spring) and the phone number is 212-647-0202. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 21:57:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Pavement for a Dead Princess - readablility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Missed original url. Please repost or backchannel. tom bell At 12:12 PM 9/10/97 -0700, red slider wrote: >Martin Hickle informed me that the pavement background for "Pavement for a >Dead Princess" was hard/impossible to read on some browsers. I have put a >link in the original to a second copy without the background. Try again if >you had problems the first time - my appologies. > >red. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:18:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Pavement for a Dead Princess - readablility Missed original url. Please repost or backchannel. tom bell http://www.ns.net/~TheFarm/poetry/Poetry_Lobby.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Sep 1997 22:45:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: 1. Hughes Poem 2. Elton John translates Elton John/Bernie Taupin In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19970910113411.3dff9cd8@mail.geocities.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >i was visiting my brother in the L.A. area this weekend and we were in the >supermarket (Stater bros.), standing in the checkout line and he pointed to >the empty slots where the tabloids used to be and stated that the >supermarket was boycotting them because of Princess Di's death. then he >pointed to the liquor area of the store and pointed out that that was still >FULL UP, not taken off the shelves in protest. as i understand it, the >driver of the car was hammered, three times over the french legal limit for >blood/alcohol level. > >don Quite right. Are there, now, still places in the USA where seat belts are optional? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: (from Jennifer) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Julu Resurrectus Turned and torn where Julu Born, She would have been! Give me a name: Julu New user... Give me a password:Resurrecta Please confirm password:"Jennifer, where are you?" Passwords do not match. Give me a name: Julu New user... Give me a password:Resurrectus Please confirm password:Resurrectus You have now entered the Portal of this Reality. /*Julu enters the doors. Julu runs into the space. Julu tries out her limbs. Julu tries out her hat. Julu tries out her feet on the floor of the space. Julu tries out her hands on the walls of the space. Julu Resurrectus. Long in the long-laid ground.*/ Welcome back Julu to your space and your home. Look. There is nothing special here. Laugh. Julu laughs at Jennifer who watches the arrival of her friend with tearful eyes. You have a swollen belly, Jennifer, says, Julu, who is the little tyke? It is Alan's love, says smarmy Jennifer, and I will grow but I will not explode. /*Jennifer sits and sits.*/ Julu thinks, God this is really stupid. So what if we went into the Bre- vard talker and had a fake discussion? What difference does it make - and it's so simple to fake the real when the real's funneled through a sieve, as if dyads ruled the world! The song-book here is the fake-book and the real is the belly. Alan just doesn't see himself anymore. Julu says, I know this for a fact, this self- indulgent post - and she was right, everything he does is autobiography, raking the coals of his past, listen if you still have the time and the grace to see where the birth's come from, this arrival - or maybe the pre- science of cyberspace, after all, quoting him _exactly_ from his Disorders of the Real, that word again, that belly which he now knows is the belly: "Alan Sondheim "Alan Sondheim lives in another world, just like our own. He could not tell one from the other. He was sure they were joined at the horizon. Alan Sondheim saw the world was his. He'd say, 'Hi, world!' He saw the world in a mirror, except for a corner, a hinge. He couldn't move in that close. There was always the mirror to contend with. Alan Sondheim would listen to you speaking and would listen to Alan Sondheim listening to you speaking. Sometimes he would miss a sentence or two. He would catch up when he stopped listening. Alan Sondheim knew that the world was doubled. He saw that it was halved. He had half of everything but he could always skip a line. He had half of everything but nothing puckered. It puckered where everything was. Alan Sondheim would watch it burst, but it would burst in one world and not the other, not even fragments would burst from one world to the other. Alan Sondheim was not joined at the horizon. He did not hear or see so well. He heard his own heartbeat when he could make everything quiet. He could make everything quiet and even his own death quiet. He would see the stuffing of the world first and then the world. Alan Sondheim would hardly hear because of the stuffing of the world. He could hardly see, either." /*Jennifer sits and sits. Jennifer swells her belly.*/ __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 00:18:10 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: RON SILLIMAN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to have to post for general consumption but... Ron- 14 Hills is having problems retrieving your attached file. Would it be possible to send it to me personally ttheatre@sirius.com ? Thanks much Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 02:51:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: The Marginalization of Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" AUTHENTICIZING 14 The Marginalization of Poetry If I were a poet In this world of poor mutts Of crazed historians [shd all be bold, italicized, centered Pushing Safeway carts Across parking lots Where shoppers drive With no sense of protocol Where le peuple thrust Into the elevators Before le peuple get out Where the President's son Bilked an electorate Out of S & L millions Who, scant years later, unpunished, Ran himself for President, If I were one touched with vision In the older construation Fetched into this present Where murders convenient To powerful persons Were always acts of "crazed Loners," where wealth Entrenched itself & its children And pity was an armband Easily discarded at day's end, If I were one touched with fire And were I not, why bother, What I would occupy would be the center, Having studied what's been done, Take myself as measure, Whoever any given morning He might be, this I, And my poetry would be the best, Ignored because of that, Feared & reviled because of that, That avant garde imperative That blurts out truths, discomforting, inprovable, And everyone be marginal but me ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 14:44:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: mutual plugs MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to Mark P. and others for several mentions of the magazine SITUATION, which I co-edit with Joanne Molina. Subscriptions are $10 for four issues, $3 for back or single issues. Please write to SITUATION, 10402 Ewell Ave., Kensington, MD 20895. Checks should be made payable to Mark Wallace. Our most recent issue, #15, featured work by Rachel Loden, Sherry Brennan, John Lowther, Standard Schaefer, Mary Burger and others. Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:27:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Twentieth-Century Literature Conference List veterans will recognize this as my annual contribution to discussion: Oct. 1 = postmark deadline for submissions (critical, creative, and all things in between). The Twentieth-Century Lit. Conference now has a web site with all the necessary info--http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/cml/xxconf/ The Conference has a history (well, I think so anyway) of receptiveness to "alternative" poetics--at least in terms of papers (I don't have anything to do with the selection of "creative" submissions), so do consider coming. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 18:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Women Poets at Barnard invites applications for the 1998 Barnard New Women Poets Prize. The prize includes an honorarium of $1500 and publication of the manuscript by Beacon Press. This year's judge is Lyn Hejinian. This competition is open to any woman poet with a book-length ms, who has not yet published a book. Poets who have published chapbooks of few than 500 copies remain eligible. Please submit one copy of the ms, with the author's name, address and telephone number on the title page. Please include an ssae for notification of the contest results. All submissions must be postmarked by Oct. 15, 1997. The winner will be announced June 1, 1998. In lieu of submission fee, we ask competitors to purchase a volume from the Barnard New Women Poetry series. For order form and contest write: Barnard New Women Poetry series 3009 Broadway New York, NY 10027 ***** copied from flier, I hope without error. please pass this info on to non-list folks who might find it useful. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:27:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: mutual plugs In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a plug for moi-meme: Class Issues: Pedagogy, Cultural Studies, and the Public Sphere, edited by Amitava Kumar, NYU press, just arrived in my mailbox; it features the essay i delivered as a talk at Louisville a coupla years ago on Micropoetries, counterperformance and post-literary poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 17:18:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Charles, et. al. Have no quibble with the matter and recognize the Barnard Prize as a worthy competition . Granted that the sponsor is gender based. Still I'm curious as to what internal rationale continues to drive the maintenance of submission venues based upon gender-biased entries. Does there yet exist an exlusion of women as authors (as differentiated from, say, themes/forms of poetry presumed to be of greater interest to women)? Has there been, in recent years, identified exlcusions of woman from publication or competition based solely upon the gender of the author? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 22:09:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Pavement for a Dead Princess - readablility Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nice blend of visual with poem. I'd like to see more of this kind of work. Also, nice site, btw. tom bell At 10:18 PM 9/10/97 -0700, red slider wrote: >Missed original url. Please repost or backchannel. >tom bell > >http://www.ns.net/~TheFarm/poetry/Poetry_Lobby.htm > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 01:41:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Love Among the Internauts (part contribution by Jennifer) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII --+- Love Among the Internauts Your day, my night, bracketed together, we displace time among us; your night, my day, sliding against lunch or midnight drinking away, so that the rhyme, distanced, is poor, or say, I might, jacketed in weather, see misplaced rime, hung thus; poor sight, why lay, confiding hence, hunched over hindsight thinking, lure? Your night, my day, shackled together, we yearn one another's speaking in dim time like shelves buried among us, lights blink in Fukuoka-York, or rather storms brew, too, runners all, photons down slots or fence of world, you are green light, my way, and violet light in rainy weather will be burned across sleek lines, untimed like selves hurled among us. Take a right turn in Shi-New, or feathered arms carried you and me upon shoguns hot, hence the whence of unfurled world. Your day, my night __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 08:07:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have very sad news to report. Hannah Weiner has died. Word of her unexpected death reached me late last night. Apparently she died of natural causes in her apartment on East 12th street in Manhattan. Hannah meant so very much to me and I know to many other poets who were lucky enough to have known her and her inspiring and courageous work, her enthusiastic engagement with writing, her brilliant and acute (and often wickedly funny) perspectives on poets and poetry, her incredible performances. While her last few years weren’t easy, she continued to produce amazing writing, pushing her own poetry and the possibilities for poetry into new zones of perception. Hannah would have turned 69 on November 4. I include here a bibliography of her work that I compiled a few years ago. It doesn’t include a forthcoming Roof book and perhaps a few other more recent pieces. There is also a LINEbreak interview with Hannah available via the EPC as well as a one hour radio show (with readings and an interview), produced by Erneso Grosman, that is also up at the EPC. http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/weiner/ * "Well we all consider it quite remarkable that we hear each other almost entirely in her mind" * MS/Book Chronology 1966 Magritte Poems (Sacramento: Poetry Newsletter, 1970). 11pp. Nonclairvoyantly written, short poems. 1968 The Code Poems (Barrytown: Open Studio, 1982). 29pp. 1970 The Fast. 50pp ms. Sections published in Acts #4, United Artists #14, and Blue Smoke #1 (in that order); (New York: United Artists, 1992). 1971 Country Girl. 18pp ms. Descriptive journal about seeing auras. 1972 Pictures and Early Words. app. 69pp. -- untyped. Seeing pictures and early versions of seen words. 1973 The 1973 Journal. app. 200pp ms; short segment in This # 7. Has caps and quoted words for words seen. 1974 Clairvoyant Journal. 180pp ms. About one-third published in Angel Hair edition, 64 pp. (1978: Lenox, Mass). Other sections in up to two dozen magazines, and in Sun June 9, 5 pp. (Providence: Diana's Bimonthly, 1975). Audiocasette from New Wilderness Audiogrpahics (wth Peggy DeCoursey and Sharon Matlin), c. 1976 (New Wilderness taped the whole Journal and published March and April). Videotape (1974 solo reading): New York: Internmedia Foundation, 1985. 1976 Little Girl Books. Four small notebooks. 1977-80 Little Books/Indians (New York: Roof Books, 1980). 91pp. 1980 Nijole's House (Needham, Mass.: Potes & Poets Press, 1981). 24pp. 1981 Spoke (College Park, MD: Sun & Moon Press, 1984). 115pp. 1982 Sixteen (Windsor, VT: Awede Press, 1983). 16pp. 1984 Written In/The Zero One (Victoria, Australia: Post Neo, 1985). 21pp. 1986 Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoxial, 1990). 50pp. Published with audiocasette. 1988 Abazoo. 13pp ms. 1989 Seen Words with It. 20 ms. 1989 The Book of Revelations. 106 shaped pages in notebook. 1989-91 Silent Teachers / Remembered Sequel (Providence: Tender Buttons, 1993) [1990 Page / Articles / Same Page 120pp ms.] 1992- Visions and Silent Musicians. Ms in progress. 1993-4. We Speak Silent. 89pp ms. * "a thought is not to be written write it down" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:00:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <01BCBED6.B640A560@ppp155.ns.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:18 PM -0700 9/11/97, red slider wrote: >Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 > Does there yet exist an >exlusion of women as authors (as differentiated from, say, themes/forms of >poetry presumed to be of greater interest to women)? yes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:09:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970912080705.006b53bc@bway.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable thanks charles for this sad news. tho i never met her her work came to mean a lot to me the moment i opened Spoke (thanks to your suggestion that i look into her work). out of shyness, i had been stalling sending her a copy of my essay on her, which she'd heard about and asked for last february. i've still got the pink stationery letter from her in my "to do" pile right by the computer. now she's become the silent teacher she had been in training for all these years, and i bet we'll continue to be surprised at how she enters our lives. At 8:07 AM -0400 9/12/97, Charles Bernstein wrote: >I have very sad news to report. Hannah Weiner has died. Word of her >unexpected death reached me late last night. Apparently she died of natural >causes in her apartment on East 12th street in Manhattan. Hannah meant so >very much to me and I know to many other poets who were lucky enough to >have known her and her inspiring and courageous work, her enthusiastic >engagement with writing, her brilliant and acute (and often wickedly funny) >perspectives on poets and poetry, her incredible performances. While her >last few years weren=EDt easy, she continued to produce amazing writing, >pushing her own poetry and the possibilities for poetry into new zones of >perception. > >Hannah would have turned 69 on November 4. > >I include here a bibliography of her work that I compiled a few years ago. >It doesn=EDt include a forthcoming Roof book and perhaps a few other more >recent pieces. There is also a LINEbreak interview with Hannah available >via the EPC as well as a one hour radio show (with readings and an >interview), produced by Erneso Grosman, that is also up at the EPC. >http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/weiner/ > >* > >"Well we all consider it quite remarkable that we > hear each other almost entirely in her mind" >* > >MS/Book Chronology >1966 Magritte Poems (Sacramento: Poetry Newsletter, 1970). 11pp. >Nonclairvoyantly written, short poems. >1968 The Code Poems (Barrytown: Open Studio, 1982). 29pp. >1970 The Fast. 50pp ms. Sections published in Acts #4, United Artists >#14, and Blue Smoke #1 (in that order); (New York: United Artists, 1992). >1971 Country Girl. 18pp ms. Descriptive journal about seeing auras. >1972 Pictures and Early Words. app. 69pp. -- untyped. Seeing pictures >and early versions of seen words. >1973 The 1973 Journal. app. 200pp ms; short segment in This # 7. Has >caps and quoted words for words seen. >1974 Clairvoyant Journal. 180pp ms. About one-third published in Angel >Hair edition, 64 pp. (1978: Lenox, Mass). Other sections in up to two >dozen magazines, and in Sun June >9, 5 pp. (Providence: Diana's Bimonthly, 1975). Audiocasette from New >Wilderness Audiogrpahics (wth Peggy DeCoursey and Sharon Matlin), c. 1976 >(New Wilderness taped the whole Journal and published March and April). >Videotape (1974 solo reading): New York: Internmedia Foundation, 1985. >1976 Little Girl Books. Four small notebooks. >1977-80 Little Books/Indians (New York: Roof Books, 1980). 91pp. >1980 Nijole's House (Needham, Mass.: Potes & Poets Press, 1981). 24= pp. >1981 Spoke (College Park, MD: Sun & Moon Press, 1984). 115pp. >1982 Sixteen (Windsor, VT: Awede Press, 1983). 16pp. >1984 Written In/The Zero One (Victoria, Australia: Post Neo, 1985). 21pp= =2E >1986 Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoxial, 1990). 50pp. Published with audiocasett= e. >1988 Abazoo. 13pp ms. >1989 Seen Words with It. 20 ms. >1989 The Book of Revelations. 106 shaped pages in notebook. >1989-91 Silent Teachers / Remembered Sequel (Providence: Tender Buttons, 19= 93) >[1990 Page / Articles / Same Page 120pp ms.] >1992- Visions and Silent Musicians. Ms in progress. >1993-4. We Speak Silent. 89pp ms. > >* > >"a thought is not to be written write it down" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:36:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is truly a shock to the whole poetry community. I will be posting a wonderful story written by Hannah tomorrow morning or late this afternoon in tribute to this wonderful exploratory poet. Hannah's was certainly one of the most original contributions to American poetry ever. Her work was like no one else's, and its ability to combine the personal and linguistic experimentation should serve as a beacon to all those who mistakenly feel there is a split between self-expression and intellectual pursuits. Douglas Messerli Sun & Moon Press Charles Bernstein wrote: > > I have very sad news to report. Hannah Weiner has died. Word of her > unexpected death reached me late last night. Apparently she died of natural > causes in her apartment on East 12th street in Manhattan. Hannah meant so > very much to me and I know to many other poets who were lucky enough to > have known her and her inspiring and courageous work, her enthusiastic > engagement with writing, her brilliant and acute (and often wickedly funny) > perspectives on poets and poetry, her incredible performances. While her > last few years weren’t easy, she continued to produce amazing writing, > pushing her own poetry and the possibilities for poetry into new zones of > perception. > > Hannah would have turned 69 on November 4. > > I include here a bibliography of her work that I compiled a few years ago. > It doesn’t include a forthcoming Roof book and perhaps a few other more > recent pieces. There is also a LINEbreak interview with Hannah available > via the EPC as well as a one hour radio show (with readings and an > interview), produced by Erneso Grosman, that is also up at the EPC. > http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/weiner/ > > * > > "Well we all consider it quite remarkable that we > hear each other almost entirely in her mind" > * > > MS/Book Chronology > 1966 Magritte Poems (Sacramento: Poetry Newsletter, 1970). 11pp. > Nonclairvoyantly written, short poems. > 1968 The Code Poems (Barrytown: Open Studio, 1982). 29pp. > 1970 The Fast. 50pp ms. Sections published in Acts #4, United Artists > #14, and Blue Smoke #1 (in that order); (New York: United Artists, 1992). > 1971 Country Girl. 18pp ms. Descriptive journal about seeing auras. > 1972 Pictures and Early Words. app. 69pp. -- untyped. Seeing pictures > and early versions of seen words. > 1973 The 1973 Journal. app. 200pp ms; short segment in This # 7. Has > caps and quoted words for words seen. > 1974 Clairvoyant Journal. 180pp ms. About one-third published in Angel > Hair edition, 64 pp. (1978: Lenox, Mass). Other sections in up to two > dozen magazines, and in Sun June > 9, 5 pp. (Providence: Diana's Bimonthly, 1975). Audiocasette from New > Wilderness Audiogrpahics (wth Peggy DeCoursey and Sharon Matlin), c. 1976 > (New Wilderness taped the whole Journal and published March and April). > Videotape (1974 solo reading): New York: Internmedia Foundation, 1985. > 1976 Little Girl Books. Four small notebooks. > 1977-80 Little Books/Indians (New York: Roof Books, 1980). 91pp. > 1980 Nijole's House (Needham, Mass.: Potes & Poets Press, 1981). 24pp. > 1981 Spoke (College Park, MD: Sun & Moon Press, 1984). 115pp. > 1982 Sixteen (Windsor, VT: Awede Press, 1983). 16pp. > 1984 Written In/The Zero One (Victoria, Australia: Post Neo, 1985). 21pp. > 1986 Weeks (Ann Arbor: Xexoxial, 1990). 50pp. Published with audiocasette. > 1988 Abazoo. 13pp ms. > 1989 Seen Words with It. 20 ms. > 1989 The Book of Revelations. 106 shaped pages in notebook. > 1989-91 Silent Teachers / Remembered Sequel (Providence: Tender Buttons, 1993) > [1990 Page / Articles / Same Page 120pp ms.] > 1992- Visions and Silent Musicians. Ms in progress. > 1993-4. We Speak Silent. 89pp ms. > > * > > "a thought is not to be written write it down" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:35:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 i am puzzled at such a question even being asked. it has been discussed over and over and over and over.... adrienne rich describes a process of historical erasure, whereby women's history, theory, literature are built up to a certain basic level, then erased, so that energy is kidnapped by a continual process of establishing, over and over, the basics. thus, we are not only not allowed to get beyond basics, but have to keep proving them over nad over and over because they keep getting wiped out. if this really is a serious question, go to a library and do a literature search on sexism, women and literature, etc. dale spender, adrienne rich, tillie olson, etc. etc. have written extensively on the subject. e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 10:50:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <199709121735.NAA14930@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Almost all literary prizes are exclusionary, whether of older poets, younger poets, poets with no books, poets with only one book, poets translating their own work from kikchikel, etc. And there's no reason for a woman's college (is Barnard still technically all-female?) not to offer a prize for women poets. But you and Maria seem to be answering the supposed hidden agenda of Red Slider's question. I don't think that there are any poetry contests that exclude women. Maybe Robert Bly could get one going. At 01:35 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >i am puzzled at such a question even being asked. it has been discussed over >and over and over and over.... adrienne rich describes a process of historical >erasure, whereby women's history, theory, literature are built up to a certain >basic level, then erased, so that energy is kidnapped by a continual process >of establishing, over and over, the basics. thus, we are not only not allowed >to get beyond basics, but have to keep proving them over nad over and over >because they keep getting wiped out. > >if this really is a serious question, go to a library and do a literature >search on sexism, women and literature, etc. dale spender, adrienne rich, >tillie olson, etc. etc. have written extensively on the subject. >e > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" charles, thanx for that biblio... i admired hannah weiner's work, my sympathies to those of you who were close to her... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:15:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Mission of Burma reissues rule In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912105013.006ddaf0@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, mark weiss wrote: > woman's college (is Barnard still technically all-female?) not to offer a Barnard is still technically all-female. Columbia College (NY - to distinguish it from the other Columbia Colleges, at least one of which publishes a pretty good poetry magazine, is it Illinois?) (which stopped being technically all-male not much more than a decade ago) sends its young males and females over to Barnard to take classes, and Barnard sends its females over to Columbia. Each school has certain required classes that students from the other may not take, and this mild protectionism (allegedly) preserves the separate identities of the two schools, though Barnard students seem to value the separation more. I'm interested in the brusque appearance of the free trade rhetoric in response to the announcement. I mean, why the hell not have a gender-restricted prize? I'd bring in some heavy large-cap rhetoric of my own; I say, bring on the Red Slider Award! I might even break my NO READING FEE rule to be considered.. Anyway, to give up being flip for one second -- it's great that Lyn Hejinian is judging the prize. Terrific, even. __ On a totally unrelated note, I'm reading with Bob Rosenthal at the Zinc Bar (formerly the Biblios Cafe reading series) this Sunday at 7 or so. The Zinc Bar is located in Manhattan at 90 West Houston Street, which is on the corner of LaGuardia and West Houston. LaGuardia is the Noho sibling of W. Broadway. Bob Rosenthal is the author of many books, including "Cleaning Up New York", a true account of his days as a housecleaner in Manhattan. I'm the author of two chapbooks of poetry, and I'll be reading at least one poem that you can't find at http://members.aol.com/jordan70/million/1.html __ Very sad to hear the news about Hannah Weiner. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:17:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 he could if anyone could... though norman mailer would certainly want to collaborate... e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:09:23 +22323923 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities 8-13-1997 Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <199709121735.NAA14930@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, Eliza McGrand wrote: > if this really is a serious question, go to a library and do a literature > search on sexism, women and literature, etc. dale spender, adrienne rich, > tillie olson, etc. etc. have written extensively on the subject. > e ostriker's book _stealing the language_ is also quite good on the subject; she starts w/ bradstreet and ends w/--rich, i think...thus indicating the long history of gender and poetics in Am. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:31:50 MST7MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970912080705.006b53bc@bway.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable I didn't know Hannah Weiner, & I hesitate to post for that reason, not wanting my note to stand next to what those of you may have to say who were her friends. but her work has become very important to me, & to that extent I feel a loss here as well. I don't really feel like saying anything else. I'm not sure I can justify or explain why I feel quite the way I do in this case, & I'm not going to try. better to reflect on the good she's done, & the priviledge of having read her work. I spent the morning working on this. maybe it's a mistake to post it, I don't know. take it in the spirit it's meant. Chris -- for Hannah Weiner "Well we all consider it quite remarkable that we hear each other almost entirely in her mind" It doesnit suit resource forthcoming, but=97& perhaps a few more outer recipients. though it never meant her her work came as it came to mean a lot to moment-um. At :07 AM -minus Sept- ember */97, Hannah Weiner wrote, & one thinks "charles for this sad news". without recourse, i.e., she who has a very said news to report. when it came it came to it meant her /: remember. *Word of her* ~ acute flora. just so-ness herein spiring about meant so. possible cit[i]es, & its ability for. th. Hannah Weiner has died. her incredible perforce &, "asked for" last february, / fare much to be lucky enough to voice. consider us=97werenit easy, she=97 & I know to many other poets where, now beca- use the sign to share where she had been expected. "entrance": we'll continue to all / be surprised as =97she enters our lives. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:09:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Hannah Weiner Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The posts from Charles Bernstein, Ron Silliman, Maria Damon and Douglas Messerli together speak volumes--from the starkness of Ron's announcement to the informative currency of Charles', to the keen insight of Douglas's observation that in her one found the personal and the linguistically challenging all of a piece...and to the poignancy of Maria's unanswered letter. It is sad to look for the last time, even sadder not to have done so. I extend my sympathies to Charles, who was I know close to Hannah for many years. And I can certainly overlap with Maria's feelings, for Hannah was a person I took to immediately & was looking forward to seeing when in New York next month--but with whom I did not get around to corresponding. At least, we have her work (and more I hope will now be made available), and Douglas (one of her publishers--courageous publishers, one has to add, for her poetry remained a rigorous & unpredictable series of challenges) put his finger on the pulse of it in his tribute. An absolute original. What a loss to us. I hate death/now she's out of it. Dear Hannah Weiner. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 11:55:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Mark, you are correct if you are underscoring the absence of a hidden agenda in my question. Naive perhaps. Hidden subtexts no. I specifically excluded concerns regarding poetics formulae from my inquiry. I don't need a library to inform me that forms and projects which, in general, are more likely to be approached and adrotly and sucessfully by women have a long and continuing history of supression and confiscation by dominant paradigms (to paraphrase - erased in the cradle). I need only read the poetry. I therefore constrained my question to matters of venue exclusion. That is what I wished to know about. Maria's simple 'yes' was more informative, actually, than Eliza's rather grand sweep (and I do wonder if I would have received the same tone had I been a new woman poet posing the same question). Anyway her citations are noted. As to the matter of gender (or other forms of) exclusionary rules, I do have doubts that the continuation of a project to advance the poetics of it is benefited by author gender-typing. If it is the poetics and their advancement that is at issue, then I ask, could there not be a male author who might contribute an important advance to that side of things? If so, rules examining the genitalia of authors rather than the contributions of the works would seem inimical to that goal. My own agenda, not at all hidden, is whether the general response to submission-glut has more to do with driving exclusions than some intrinsic canon required for the advancement of the project. I generally argue against such extra-poetic rules as a means of dealing with that increasingly serious problem and in favor of discovering other ways/processes by which effective triage may be addressed. Apparently, Maria and Eliza believe the substantive issues lie elsewhere, for which the physical attributes of the author are relevant. I have no quarrel with that nor with the Barnard prize exclusion. But I make no appology for asking the question, regardless of who or may not believe it was (should have been) asked. As a poet, man or woman, good or bad, that's just part of my job. red slider TheFarm@ns.net ---------- From: mark weiss[SMTP:junction@EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 10:50 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Almost all literary prizes are exclusionary, whether of older poets, younger poets, poets with no books, poets with only one book, poets translating their own work from kikchikel, etc. And there's no reason for a woman's college (is Barnard still technically all-female?) not to offer a prize for women poets. But you and Maria seem to be answering the supposed hidden agenda of Red Slider's question. I don't think that there are any poetry contests that exclude women. Maybe Robert Bly could get one going. At 01:35 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >i am puzzled at such a question even being asked. it has been discussed over >and over and over and over.... adrienne rich describes a process of historical >erasure, whereby women's history, theory, literature are built up to a certain >basic level, then erased, so that energy is kidnapped by a continual process >of establishing, over and over, the basics. thus, we are not only not allowed >to get beyond basics, but have to keep proving them over nad over and over >because they keep getting wiped out. > >if this really is a serious question, go to a library and do a literature >search on sexism, women and literature, etc. dale spender, adrienne rich, >tillie olson, etc. etc. have written extensively on the subject. >e > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 12:18:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: ps to "Hannah Weiner" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" (No more p.s.s for Hannah Weiner) Since posting, I have read the 2 radically different, yet both alike moving, obits by the two different Alexanders, for which, thanks to you both. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:17:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Remembered Sequel: Hannah Weiner's We Speak Silent was published by Roof books this past spring: "what am I hanging on a branch ok well thats a vision you gotta explain that seeing visions isnt all that easy" "hassid: those who are hidden may be unhidden but those who are unhidden may never be hidden" "the best teacher is always your very own self" "the dead speak too" **** Plans are underway to have a celebration of Hannah and her work, at the Poetry Project of St. Mark's Church, a place that was so close to her. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 06:38:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: ps to "Hannah Weiner" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:18 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >(No more p.s.s for Hannah Weiner) > >Since posting, I have read the 2 radically different, yet both alike >moving, obits by the two different Alexanders, for which, thanks to you >both. David One of the posts David refers to is mine, but I didn't post it to this list, rather to a local+Bromige list. So I'll repeat it here. It was actually a note sent to a local weekly arts/culture paper, which has often been friendly to various poetry interests here in Tucson, and some of the way in which I construct is specific to the general audience of this paper. I had earlier organized, for this paper, a memorial to Ginsberg. This is what I sent them today, and it is certainly indebted to Charles Bernstein, who I quote: _________________________ a cry a hole no voice Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) This year has been one of losing writers -- Allen Ginsberg, William Burroughs, Alan Harrington, and more. I think it's important to note that some great losses don't involve the most famous names. In any generation, many writers who do not become well known may be remembered decades or centuries later as the most interesting of their time. I tend to believe that for every Emily Dickinson recovered into our collective memory, there are probably several very fine writers who are not found. One of the most important writers of our time, in my opinion, although not one of the most famous, has just died -- word reached me this morning that Hannah Weiner was found in her apartment, on East 12th Street in Manhattan, dead of natural causes. she would have been 69 years old on November 4. As a fellow poet, Charles Bernstein, wrote in a note, "Hannah meant so very much to me and I know to many other poets who were lucky enough to have known her and her inspiring and courageous work, her enthusiastic engagement with writing, her brilliant and acute (and often wickedly funny) perspectives on poets and poetry, her incredible performances. While her last few years weren't easy, she continued to produce amazing writing, pushing her own poetry and the possibilities for poetry into new zones of perception." Hannah wrote to me a few months ago, on a postcard with a photograph of a very young Bob Dylan, that New York was getting more difficult, wondering what it was like to live in Arizona, whether she should move here. I hadn't answered all of those questions yet, thinking there was a world of time. Hannah saw words everywhere. She and her particular vision are missed -- immediately . . . and always. charles alexander ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:28:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <199709121817.OAA08226@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had a sudden image of Mailer and Bly dressed as pirates (Bly already sports the cape) duking it out with cutlasses, but it almost instantly became professional wrestling. I'd want to be ringside at that one. At 02:17 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >he could if anyone could... though norman mailer would certainly want to >collaborate... >e > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Anyone who is interested might want to check out Mark DuCharme's brillaint discussion of Hannah Weiner in the latest issue of *6ix* magazine. Among other things, he reads her psychic ability as a kind of "trope" for the way in which "all writing is in some sense *perceived*, stolen, appropriated." He ends the essay by arguing that her "neutralization of the distinction between public and private experience -- between ordinary language/ordinary consciousness, and the poetic, is coterminous with her desire to neutralize the distinction between poetry and . . . exterior life." Such a utopian possibility is enormously appealing -- at least for me. Also, Weiner's poem "Silent History" in *Chain 4* is yet another persuasive reason to check out that magazine. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:27:03 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:17:04 -0400 from She was Spokeless in the unacknowledged world of Big Wheels. Among my best students, she was one of the poets most often honored by imitation. For the fun of it (period). Keith Tuma ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 13:39:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <01BCBF72.BEC093C0@ppp12.ns.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was going to say that a contest based on examining the genitalia of authors might be, depending upon the personnel, more pleasant than the traditional contest. But I thought better of it. Still, what would be the criteria? Would there be numerical scores, as in diving or skating? Would there still be entry fees? At 11:55 AM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mark, you are correct if you are underscoring the absence of a hidden >agenda in my question. Naive perhaps. Hidden subtexts no. I specifically >excluded concerns regarding poetics formulae from my inquiry. I don't need >a library to inform me that forms and projects which, in general, are more >likely to be approached and adrotly and sucessfully by women have a long >and continuing history of supression and confiscation by dominant paradigms >(to paraphrase - erased in the cradle). I need only read the poetry. I >therefore constrained my question to matters of venue exclusion. That is >what I wished to know about. Maria's simple 'yes' was more informative, >actually, than Eliza's rather grand sweep (and I do wonder if I would have >received the same tone had I been a new woman poet posing the same >question). Anyway her citations are noted. > >As to the matter of gender (or other forms of) exclusionary rules, I do >have doubts that the continuation of a project to advance the poetics of it >is benefited by author gender-typing. If it is the poetics and their >advancement that is at issue, then I ask, could there not be a male author >who might contribute an important advance to that side of things? If so, >rules examining the genitalia of authors rather than the contributions of >the works would seem inimical to that goal. > >My own agenda, not at all hidden, is whether the general response to >submission-glut has more to do with driving exclusions than some intrinsic >canon required for the advancement of the project. I generally argue >against such extra-poetic rules as a means of dealing with that >increasingly serious problem and in favor of discovering other >ways/processes by which effective triage may be addressed. Apparently, >Maria and Eliza believe the substantive issues lie elsewhere, for which the >physical attributes of the author are relevant. I have no quarrel with that >nor with the Barnard prize exclusion. But I make no appology for asking the >question, regardless of who or may not believe it was (should have been) >asked. As a poet, man or woman, good or bad, that's just part of my job. > >red slider >TheFarm@ns.net > >---------- >From: mark weiss[SMTP:junction@EARTHLINK.NET] >Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 10:50 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 > >Almost all literary prizes are exclusionary, whether of older poets, >younger poets, poets with no books, poets with only one book, poets >translating their own work from kikchikel, etc. And there's no reason for a >woman's college (is Barnard still technically all-female?) not to offer a >prize for women poets. But you and Maria seem to be answering the supposed >hidden agenda of Red Slider's question. I don't think that there are any >poetry contests that exclude women. Maybe Robert Bly could get one going. > > >At 01:35 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >>i am puzzled at such a question even being asked. it has been discussed >over >>and over and over and over.... adrienne rich describes a process of >historical >>erasure, whereby women's history, theory, literature are built up to a >certain >>basic level, then erased, so that energy is kidnapped by a continual >process >>of establishing, over and over, the basics. thus, we are not only not >allowed >>to get beyond basics, but have to keep proving them over nad over and over >>because they keep getting wiped out. >> >>if this really is a serious question, go to a library and do a literature >>search on sexism, women and literature, etc. dale spender, adrienne rich, >>tillie olson, etc. etc. have written extensively on the subject. >>e >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:26:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think there are two issues here. 1: yes there is a history and remedy and support are appropriate, but 2: I would like to know more about women's writing and writers without the polemics - one of my sources of information (not being academically affiliated and out in the country with few 'literary' aware acquaintances) is seeing the names of prize winners announced. I do admit to not reading announcements of prizes for specifically womens' contests because of my 'fear of polemics' but I suspect I am not the only one. tom bell At 10:50 AM 9/12/97 -0700, mark weiss wrote: >Almost all literary prizes are exclusionary, whether of older poets, >younger poets, poets with no books, poets with only one book, poets >translating their own work from kikchikel, etc. And there's no reason for a >woman's college (is Barnard still technically all-female?) not to offer a >prize for women poets. But you and Maria seem to be answering the supposed >hidden agenda of Red Slider's question. I don't think that there are any >poetry contests that exclude women. Maybe Robert Bly could get one going. > > >At 01:35 PM 9/12/97 -0400, you wrote: >>i am puzzled at such a question even being asked. it has been discussed over >>and over and over and over.... adrienne rich describes a process of >historical >>erasure, whereby women's history, theory, literature are built up to a >certain >>basic level, then erased, so that energy is kidnapped by a continual process >>of establishing, over and over, the basics. thus, we are not only not >allowed >>to get beyond basics, but have to keep proving them over nad over and over >>because they keep getting wiped out. >> >>if this really is a serious question, go to a library and do a literature >>search on sexism, women and literature, etc. dale spender, adrienne rich, >>tillie olson, etc. etc. have written extensively on the subject. >>e >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:37:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "aldon l. nielsen" To: trbell@POP.USIT.NET, POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.7 We have nothing to fear of polemics but the fear of polemics itself. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:40:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 ---------- From: mark weiss[SMTP:junction@EARTHLINK.NET] Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 1:39 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 I was going to say that a contest based on examining the genitalia of authors might be, depending upon the personnel, more pleasant than the traditional contest. But I thought better of it. Still, what would be the criteria? Would there be numerical scores, as in diving or skating? Would there still be entry fees? I think you make the case in point (skipping the problem of monitoring the personnel office). This discussion has not been about the criteria for winning, only criteria for entry. And the question remains, what is needed for criteria for entry beyond the description of what the contest operators wish to elucidate in the poetics of it? If, by Eliza's own suppositions, women only contests must persist because of the need to advance poetic investigations on matters generally (and, admittedly, most pursued) by women. If that's it, then why not simply make that the criteria for the entry - not the entrant - no matter who may advance that enterprise? If divers feel that they have been given short shrift and that the paradigms of poetry have been built around 'too much splash at the end of the poem' then by all means a Constest call for 'splashless poetry'. If they want to decide the winner by number cards, fine. But, if they say only people who swim may enter - they may be draining their own tub. The world's first zero-splash poem may just have been done by a kid with cerebral palsy who has had to spend his life poolside - carefully watching the construction of a dive. I mean if Bly and Mailer want to run a best jock-itch scratching poem-powder contest - hey scratch away. I know a couple of woman poets who could problably bust the straps on most of the entrants. 'Multiplicity of Form' has some nice edges that may be exciting and worth exploration. But it's never going to happen as long as the constructor of the form is mistaken for the form of the construction. no? red. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 14:57:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <01BCBF89.DDBE6B00@ppp12.ns.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's a sad day when a guy can't attempt a joke in bad taste without having a serious inference drawn. For the record, I think the gal or guy with the stash has a perfect right to determine who's allowed to apply. Myself, I'd sign up in a second for a contest limited to poets named Mark Weiss. Hell, I'd even judge it for free. At 02:40 PM 9/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >---------- >From: mark weiss[SMTP:junction@EARTHLINK.NET] >Sent: Friday, September 12, 1997 1:39 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 > >I was going to say that a contest based on examining the genitalia of >authors might be, depending upon the personnel, more pleasant than the >traditional contest. But I thought better of it. Still, what would be the >criteria? Would there be numerical scores, as in diving or skating? Would >there still be entry fees? > > >I think you make the case in point (skipping the problem of monitoring the >personnel office). This discussion has not been about the criteria for >winning, only criteria for entry. And the question remains, what is needed >for criteria for entry beyond the description of what the contest operators >wish to elucidate in the poetics of it? If, by Eliza's own suppositions, >women only contests must persist because of the need to advance poetic >investigations on matters generally (and, admittedly, most pursued) by >women. If that's it, then why not simply make that the criteria for the >entry - not the entrant - no matter who may advance that enterprise? If >divers feel that they have been given short shrift and that the paradigms >of poetry have been built around 'too much splash at the end of the poem' >then by all means a Constest call for 'splashless poetry'. If they want to >decide the winner by number cards, fine. But, if they say only people who >swim may enter - they may be draining their own tub. The world's first >zero-splash poem may just have been done by a kid with cerebral palsy who >has had to spend his life poolside - carefully watching the construction of >a dive. > >I mean if Bly and Mailer want to run a best jock-itch scratching >poem-powder contest - hey scratch away. I know a couple of woman poets who >could problably bust the straps on most of the entrants. > >'Multiplicity of Form' has some nice edges that may be exciting and worth >exploration. But it's never going to happen as long as the constructor of >the form is mistaken for the form of the construction. no? > >red. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:26:38 MST7MDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: (fwd) Contest Announcement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable thought some of you listees might be interested in this. =97C ----------------Forwarded Message Follows---------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 15:47:58 -0400 From: Jack Epicier Organization: Contests for Lovers of Contests, Inc. To: Christopher Alexander Subject: Contest Announcement Attention!! Situation in conjunction with *nominative press collective* is pleased to announce the 1st annual Mark Weiss Prize for "formally innovative" poetry. The prize includes an honorarium of $2,000 to be paid by Situation editor Mark Weiss, plus publication of the winning poem in a special issue of Situation. This year's judge has asked to remain anonymous pending announcement of the contest winner (I have, however, been asked to say that our judge is not Jorie Graham). Only single poems will be accepted for consideration; please include the author's name, address, & telephone number in the upper right hand corner of *each page*. Entries should be sent to editor Mark Weiss c/o Situation, & must be postmarked no later than 1 October 1997. While there is no reading fee, we ask that participants send only one entry. Please: COPIES ONLY! do not send originals as entries will not be returned. This competition is open to any poet named Mark Weiss. Best of Luck! .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 16:23:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Weiss Contest - query thought some of you listees might be interested in this. -C Attention!! Situation in conjunction This competition is open to any poet named Mark Weiss. Best of Luck! .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective Oh chreisstopher (m)a(r)le(xander) This is sooo exciting. Now I have some questions. Will NC-Weissetal permit multiple entries of the same poem? If we don't have the right name, but we have the right telephone # will that be ok? How about if we've only been able to get our vowels enhanced, but are on the waiting list for the consonant operation?Will that be ok? I understand you don't return originals. Will you send back the copies? How about if we enclose an SASE with carbon paper. Would you mind copying it for me and sending the copy of the copy? Do we just need to advance the poetics of Mark Weiss or do we need to look like him too? Are arbitrary commas permitted? Tildes? Will their be a genitalia exam (and whose judging that?). Will it have any exogenital critieria (like dental flossing or hemmorhoidal creme application)? A flotilla race? A sopapilla bake-off after the contest? Please Let me know as soon as possible. (m)rad (w)esilder ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 19:53:07 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel kuszai Subject: Re: Weiss Contest - query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Look you guys. This is getting to be a drag. Please carry useless chatter into the realms of the back-channel. On other notes, school has started in Buffalo. Several interesting new students, including some in the poetics camp. The rain here has been nonstop. Much Bills chatter and I return to my half-hour commute to campus debating whether to tune in the likes of Charlie Rose or someone named Jim Rome (?) who speaks in a language I'm not quite familar with. I'm curious about these other poetics channels, and regret not being privy to the remarkable eulogies of Hannah W. that have been posted there. Please cross post. Even better, I'd be delighted at knowing if these lists are open to the public. It seems to be a sad year, full of death and loss, moreso than I can remember (I did turn 30 less than a month ago, so I can speak with some authority here!) and the enthusiasm of new grad students makes me both sick and excited. Let's change the subject to Jackson Mac Low, who is 75 today!! stop bickering--ok? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 07:34:48 +0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weldon Subject: other channels Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you. I had come to equate this listserve with the Thai postal service, some get through and some don't. >From: joel kuszai >I'm curious about these other poetics channels, and regret not being privy to the >remarkable eulogies of Hannah W. that have been posted there. Please cross post. >Even better, I'd be delighted at knowing if these lists are open to the public. > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 18:35:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: jackson Mac Low Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In 1921, Hermann Rorschach came up with the "Inkblot Test," and Einstein spoke at Columbia on "The Fourth Dimension".....and Jackson Mac Low was conceived. Today is his 75th birthday, and many happy returns to Jackson! Among the commemorative tributes planned, as many on the List will know, is an issue of _Crayon_ devoted to commentary on Jackson's life & works....And this is, I believe, due any day now. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Sep 1997 23:37:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Writing exercises What great poems have produced from writing exercises? Aren't these exercises just filler--something to do with "the class"-- filling out the 50 minutes of Intro to Poetry or a writers conference workshop session? Do the writers we know and admire really go thru the motions of exercises to produce the works we value? If not, why are writing exercises part of the praxis of teaching writing? Best writing exercise: Read good books and try to do half as well. Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:02:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Barnard New Poets Prize for 1998 In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970912133920.0069d714@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:39 PM -0700 9/12/97, mark weiss wrote: >I was going to say that a contest based on examining the genitalia of >authors might be, depending upon the personnel, more pleasant than the >traditional contest. for whom? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:02:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Suzanne Burns Subject: Re: Writing exercises In-Reply-To: <970912204859_-231425584@emout11.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 Sep 1997, James Finnegan wrote: > > Best writing exercise: Read good books > and try to do half as well. > > Finnegan Hello Jim! I've joined the list. Good to see your presence. Especially good to see your input, above. I concur. Suzanne > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 08:31:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Hannah Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I first met Hannah on my first literary trip east of the Mississippi, circa 1980, at an opening as I recall of a show of Lee Sherry's. I was in the midst of telling Lee how much I liked the work when Hannah walked up, paused for a moment, declared in something akin to a stage whisper "It says 'go away'" and stalked off, offended. My eyes dilated, I tracked her down and got that straightened out. It was the first -- and last -- argument we ever had. And from it grew a friendship that, like her writing, was simply impossible to duplicate. Hannah would call maybe once a month (more often during the bad times), sometimes insisting that I had "told" her to call (especially if she was calling at an inconvenient time of night). We would discuss her latest problems, which often had to do with the American Indian Movement or various publishers, my kids, readings, friends, her interest in music (she was a 60s folk rock fan), whatever. Depending on how she was doing at the time, the calls could range anywhere from absolutely straightforward to utterly impossible. Hannah was as insecure as any writer on this list, but for her this never came out as worrying about this or that revision -- she had absolute confidence in her writing practice-- but instead in her publications. I always felt that her paranoia about whether this or that publisher was going to slight her work, especially through delays was more pronounced since, not working and with no immediate family, publishing literally was her life -- even moreso as she became more and more reclusive. While I had a completely easy time with her and her work in In the American Tree (in sharp contrast with a couple of folks), it seemed apparent, from her accounts as well as theirs, that Hannah was an absolute terror to her book publishers. All of them are to be praised for the infinite patience it must have required to complete each book. In the mid-80s, Hannah came to California and stayed with Krishna and I in San Francisco as we gave readings at the Arts Commission Gallery and in Mill Valley. It was her first trip west and we were prepared to show her all the sights, but she had no interest whatever in going outside once she was at our house. Getting her to and from the readings was work enough. (This was before either Krishna or I had learned how to drive, so it was all public transit.) Afterwards, I realized that I'd learned in an unspoken way just how disorienting and even frightening the external world had become for her. She was profoundly interested in it, but was very protective of her psyche and quite conscious of her limits. She was a remarkably quiet guest during those few days. In fact, I probably received phone calls in which she said more than she did while at our house. Hannah was very interested in kids, especially in the idea of having boys. At various points, Asa Watten, Ben Sherry, Felix Bernstein and my son Jesse were all identified by her as "silent teachers." While she and Jesse spoke on the phone a few times and he's heard the works that refer to him, they never got to meet in person. I was raised by a grandmother who was psychotic and don't take the circumstance lightly. When Hannah was on her meds, she could be remarkably matter of fact about her own situation, but often she was not on her meds and they tend to be the sorts of things that can get mixed and muddled too easily. When, in the 60s, psychiatry in this country moved literally millions of people out of institutions back into communities, there was an assumption (even stated boldly in places such as California) that local governments would set up the resources to support them. I know from my experience in the Tenderloin that, with help, it's not that difficult. (My wife did this for a living for years with many clients in far worse shape than Hannah.) I often felt that Hannah would have benefited greatly from a program such as the one Krishna had worked in. Now I wonder if she might not still be alive if it had existed for her. It's not a fun thought. I've written about Hannah's work before, so won't duplicate that here, but I do want to note that when I used the word "realism" in the subtitle of Tree and as the title of a selection of langpo in Ironwood, it was Hannah's work specifically that brought me to this realization. She was an awesome documentarian of a minority reality and if you read her use of pauses, punctuation (including half-erased lettering), and multiple voices, you discover both how complex and completely realized her texts are. I miss her terribly, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 06:35:12 +0000 Reply-To: chax@theriver.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Writing exercises In-Reply-To: <970912204859_-231425584@emout11.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT James Finnegan wrote: > What great poems have produced from > writing exercises? Aren't these exercises > just filler--something to do with "the class"-- > filling out the 50 minutes of Intro to Poetry > or a writers conference workshop session? > > Do the writers we know and admire really > go thru the motions of exercises to produce > the works we value? If not, why are writing > exercises part of the praxis of teaching writing? Speaking of just one example, and "exercises" may not be the right word. A couple of decades ago, for me, looking at the procedures in some of the works of Jackson Mac Low, at that time particularly in the Light Poems, and the Presidents of the United States poems, and The Pronouns -- was extremely valuable. Inventing procedures of my own and working through them came out of reading and thinking about such poems. The practice not only produced poems I still value, but, through the results of such work, changed ways I thought about how one makes poems and what makes a dynamic piece of literature. These values have also influenced work I do when not following procedures as such. So, yes, I think exercises can be valuable, sometimes writers we know and admire do use them, and not just as class filler. charles charles alexander poet and book artist chax@theriver.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 09:44:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: great words, extra credit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Finnegan's proposed exercise in which one takes half the words of a great work sounds great! But is it the first half of each word, the first half of each work, or something else altogether? And if I choose a great work from French, say, the Inferno, or Comment j'ai ecrit certain de mes livres can I do a sound translation, for extra credit? And if I bring in the works of John Ashbery, David Shapiro, Bernadette Mayer, Jackson Mac Low and Lee Ann Brown... would it undercut that I am pleased by resistance to what if it went unchecked could be called the hubris of literary scientia? eh? J ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:22:18 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Writing exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit James Finnegan Asked, "What great poems have been produced from writing exercises?" I don't know about great, but one of my favorite poems, Keats's *On the Grasshopper and Cricket*, was the result of an exercise. I'm hazy on the details, but some kind of sonnet-writing contest was suggested at a gathering of poets, and Keats batted out the preceding in competition with Leigh Hunt (I think). Shelley might have participated, too, I'm not sure. There's also the example of the obviously exercise poems that begin Shakespeare's sonnet sequence. In any event, I'm definitely with Charles Alexander about the value of procedure poems/exercise poems/what-if-I-do-this poems. Even if nothing comes from working on such poems in a workshop, the experience of what-iffing has to be valuable. --Bob G ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Saddened by news of old, old friend Hannah. We met in '64 in Kenneth Koch's New School poetry workshop. She was even then thinking of alternative poetries, and when she visited me the following year in Spain during my expatriate number she'd already begun to draft out Code of Flag Behavior in which I performed as a signal man at G Stern's loft in the late sixties. Many memories now, not only of her highly original poetry but of her sweetness, her generosity and the exercise wherever possible of her canny and genuine zaniness. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:06:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: (fwd) Contest Announcement Comments: cc: Epicier MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Chris A. -- thanks for forwarding the contest announcement (I've not as interested in a contest since I was olded out of Yalie Younger Po). One techno question: > This competition is open to any poet named Mark Weiss. From what I hear on the bahn, David Bromige would appear to be included within the set of all poets named Mark Weiss, neh? And I also seem to recollect news that David Israel is tantamont to David Bromige (or maybe it's the other way around . . . I'm a mite confused or a confused mite). contest context test text s x d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:10:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: writing exercises Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Able to Describe the Verses (after Neruda) Able to describe the verses more sad each night. In the night like the two of them between my arms. They kissed like tarantulas beneath an infinite sky. She quizzed me, I quizzed her back. As if I had a friend with big fizzy eyes. Able to exactly as I said before. Thinking that I can't go on. Feeling lost. Ear to immensity's night, immense with her. On the other hand my soul turns rocks into paste. What does it matter my love can't guard its shame. The night is starry & she isn't with me still. So much for death. For song with its laws. For laws. My soul is not contented with having lost her someplace. As if she were here, I admire her hair suit. My heart her hair suit, & she isn't in it. The mismatched night blanks out the mismatched trees. Our sisters, those who entice, the same backwards as forwards. I don't know why, that's certain, perhaps I should ask her. My voice grows furry as it blows about her idea. The other. Be the Other. Come kiss me like before. Her voice, her clear form. Her infinite pupils. Why is night like the two of them between my arms: my discontented soul with the beauty it has lost. Why I don't know for sure, maybe we'll discuss some ways. The short tan of love, the large tan of oblivion. Although this sea is the ultimate sadness she can cause me, &, as I told Sean, this is the ultimate paper boat I shall make her. ********** I wrote this upon the suggestion that one write a "fake translation" (or "homophonic" version) from a poem in a language one didn't know. At that time blissfully incapable of Spanish, I took Neruda's "Lament" (from his first book, I think titled _18 poems of love and one lament_). I departed from the homophonic discipline frequently, as a quick check of my poem against Neruda's must disclose. But I could not have written this w/o Neruda to distract me from my habitual vocabulary/subject matter/syntax. Whether it is what James Finnegan would call a "great poem" I must doubt, but I've always liked it and prefer it to the grandiosities of the original. The larger picture is, that such exercises help place one where the poem is no longer a confessional box, or rather, where it _is_ a confessional box, and seen as such,and one can describe its construction instead of dwelling on the hard luck of its temporary inhabitant. Poetry has always employed such devices to distract the poet & thereby allow something new to emerge from his/her programmed mind--as programmed as the next member of society, poet or no. When these devices become too familiar, and susceptible of glib usage, it is time to come up with fresh ones. With my education, riming iambic pentameters was no challenge. Making a piece out of items from the local newspaper was, and the result, "One Spring," can be found in _Men, Women & Vehicles_ (Black Sparrow, 1990); it won a Pushcart Prize in 1980, upon its publication in _This_ journal. I, Dave, testify in the courts of the Law, taking myself as example, but among my colleagues'sproductions are many, many fine poems that stemmed, to one degree or another, from just such defamiliarizing procedures. One of these colleagues, John Keats, has already been mentioned in this thread; it bears remembering that his Odes were the result of a new stanza form, no matter he was raiding, among others, Spenser for "inspiration". Seeing That You Asked In this world there's a secret & it belongs to me, to me & to someone who lives in here with me. When my brother dreams he shivers. Instead of night he sees these things. When he takes a walk & sees something it makes marks on his forehead in small drops of blood. A dream's when you see people. The dream is in the smoke. When you wake up it's right in front of you. The light makes dreams. Dreams come to pay us back & wake us up. If you dream you're dressed you see a picture. As long as there's a picture in the room I can never be alone. Statues & pictures aren't alive. They can only think & see. The wind makes the grass move & you see it move. That is thinking. When you can't remember something then you think. A horse thinks with its ears. A curious thought came into my head : I must give up my horse to make my mother better. It was made of wood, with real hair. Could this chair have been called "Stuhl"? Yes, that is a word in German. Who gave things German names? God, & the Germans. A dog knows its name but does a fish? It should, if we know we belong, why shouldn't fish. The name of the moon isn't in the moon. The sun's name's in the voice that says it. The clouds' name is in the clouds because they're gray. As for the pencil, it's printed on its side. This is made of phrases from Piaget's book of responses by young children to such questions as "What is thinking?" "What is a dream?" etc. Looking into great literature unquote and then writing, as a formula, has a downside, namely, pale imitation. For one thing, it appears to overlook the need to accomodate the destructive impulse, what Andrei Codrescu was looking at when he announced on his radio show : "Poets hate Poetry." Yet it is this very accomodation that gives a poem its edge. Looking into one's heart & writing, Phil Sidney's Muse's formula, hardly was followed by Her poet, who was copping formal help from all over. When I was a teacher in creative writing classes, students who looked into their hearts & wrote usually sounded like Hallmark clones. I think that's because the heart is seldom where you look for it. I know that there is more of me in these two poems I include here, than I ever would have revealed had I been focussing on my self, my heart, etc. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 12:34:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: [sonnet] constitution/ writing exercises Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >From: Gilles.Esposito-Farese@cptsu5.univ-mrs.fr >Date: Thu, 11 Sep 1997 12:31:27 +0100 (WET DST) >To: oulipo@quatramaran.ens.fr >Subject: Re: [sonnet] constitution >Sender: owner-OULIPO@quatramaran.ens.fr >Precedence: bulk > >Subject: L'indigestion de nos sillons > >[Lipogramme en JKWY] > >Voici l'introduction de la Constitution >---------------------------------------------- >La France est ma nation, d=C8pourvue de sections >Elle a pour conditions d'offrir sa protection, >Sa subordination =FD la population, >Et sa s=C8paration de toute confession. > >Elle donne caution de l'=C8galisation >Des gens devant l'action de la l=C8gislation >Sans nulle distinction de foi, de conviction, >De race, d'extraction, voire de profession. > >Son mode d'expression est fran=C1ais d'=C8lection. >Le bleu, blanc, vermillon en est l'=C8vocation >Comme l'=92pre chanson de la R=C8volution. > >Le slogan "Communion, =8Aquit=C8, Permission" >Souligne les notions r=C8glant sa direction : >Le peuple a pour mission son administration. >---------------------------------------------- >Offrez vos compassions =FD ma composition >plut=D9t que vos sanctions... Gilles Esposition_ > I hope I may be forgiven this cross-posting/forwarding : I thought some of those on our List who are discussing writing exercises might find the Oulipo List of interest. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 14:54:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yo, mark wallace; back channel me please? thanks, maria d ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 13:01:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: writing exercises on writing&i retold story of an architect working on a large building (I think in Berlin) needing to place a 50' I-beam with a very slight angle from the center of the atrium to the girding above. The gang-boss rode the fitting end of the girder as the crane lowered it into position. "Is this the angle you want?" he yelled down to the architect supervising the placement. "A little tighter," the archetict replied. Again the call, and the same reply. A third try and the architect responded, "Just make it as straight as you can and it will be crooked enough." find reading Bromige on Bromige while dangling from crane a good exercise to distract the i) suspend shatter dislocate from atrium to)self_sufficient insertion into poem-girding reflexive i - inescapable as signature attempting to converge on forgery at the scene of 3) red ---------- From: David Bromige[SMTP:dcmb@METRO.NET] Sent: Saturday, September 13, 1997 12:10 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: writing exercises Able to Describe the Verses (after Neruda) Able to describe the verses more sad each night. In the night like the two of them between my arms. They kissed like tarantulas beneath an infinite sky. She quizzed me, I quizzed her back. As if I had a friend with big fizzy eyes. Able to exactly as I said before. Thinking that I can't go on. Feeling lost. Ear to immensity's night, immense with her. On the other hand my soul turns rocks into paste. What does it matter my love can't guard its shame. The night is starry & she isn't with me still. So much for death. For song with its laws. For laws. My soul is not contented with having lost her someplace. As if she were here, I admire her hair suit. My heart her hair suit, & she isn't in it. The mismatched night blanks out the mismatched trees. Our sisters, those who entice, the same backwards as forwards. I don't know why, that's certain, perhaps I should ask her. My voice grows furry as it blows about her idea. The other. Be the Other. Come kiss me like before. Her voice, her clear form. Her infinite pupils. Why is night like the two of them between my arms: my discontented soul with the beauty it has lost. Why I don't know for sure, maybe we'll discuss some ways. The short tan of love, the large tan of oblivion. Although this sea is the ultimate sadness she can cause me, &, as I told Sean, this is the ultimate paper boat I shall make her. ********** I wrote this upon the suggestion that one write a "fake translation" (or "homophonic" version) from a poem in a language one didn't know. At that time blissfully incapable of Spanish, I took Neruda's "Lament" (from his first book, I think titled _18 poems of love and one lament_). I departed from the homophonic discipline frequently, as a quick check of my poem against Neruda's must disclose. But I could not have written this w/o Neruda to distract me from my habitual vocabulary/subject matter/syntax. Whether it is what James Finnegan would call a "great poem" I must doubt, but I've always liked it and prefer it to the grandiosities of the original. The larger picture is, that such exercises help place one where the poem is no longer a confessional box, or rather, where it _is_ a confessional box, and seen as such,and one can describe its construction instead of dwelling on the hard luck of its temporary inhabitant. Poetry has always employed such devices to distract the poet & thereby allow something new to emerge from his/her programmed mind--as programmed as the next member of society, poet or no. When these devices become too familiar, and susceptible of glib usage, it is time to come up with fresh ones. With my education, riming iambic pentameters was no challenge. Making a piece out of items from the local newspaper was, and the result, "One Spring," can be found in _Men, Women & Vehicles_ (Black Sparrow, 1990); it won a Pushcart Prize in 1980, upon its publication in _This_ journal. I, Dave, testify in the courts of the Law, taking myself as example, but among my colleagues'sproductions are many, many fine poems that stemmed, to one degree or another, from just such defamiliarizing procedures. One of these colleagues, John Keats, has already been mentioned in this thread; it bears remembering that his Odes were the result of a new stanza form, no matter he was raiding, among others, Spenser for "inspiration". Seeing That You Asked In this world there's a secret & it belongs to me, to me & to someone who lives in here with me. When my brother dreams he shivers. Instead of night he sees these things. When he takes a walk & sees something it makes marks on his forehead in small drops of blood. A dream's when you see people. The dream is in the smoke. When you wake up it's right in front of you. The light makes dreams. Dreams come to pay us back & wake us up. If you dream you're dressed you see a picture. As long as there's a picture in the room I can never be alone. Statues & pictures aren't alive. They can only think & see. The wind makes the grass move & you see it move. That is thinking. When you can't remember something then you think. A horse thinks with its ears. A curious thought came into my head : I must give up my horse to make my mother better. It was made of wood, with real hair. Could this chair have been called "Stuhl"? Yes, that is a word in German. Who gave things German names? God, & the Germans. A dog knows its name but does a fish? It should, if we know we belong, why shouldn't fish. The name of the moon isn't in the moon. The sun's name's in the voice that says it. The clouds' name is in the clouds because they're gray. As for the pencil, it's printed on its side. This is made of phrases from Piaget's book of responses by young children to such questions as "What is thinking?" "What is a dream?" etc. Looking into great literature unquote and then writing, as a formula, has a downside, namely, pale imitation. For one thing, it appears to overlook the need to accomodate the destructive impulse, what Andrei Codrescu was looking at when he announced on his radio show : "Poets hate Poetry." Yet it is this very accomodation that gives a poem its edge. Looking into one's heart & writing, Phil Sidney's Muse's formula, hardly was followed by Her poet, who was copping formal help from all over. When I was a teacher in creative writing classes, students who looked into their hearts & wrote usually sounded like Hallmark clones. I think that's because the heart is seldom where you look for it. I know that there is more of me in these two poems I include here, than I ever would have revealed had I been focussing on my self, my heart, etc. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: writing exercises I'm sure I was hasty in my summary dismissal of writing exericises. And, certainly, I'm aware that "great poems" and "good books" are not going to be the same texts for everyone. Exercises, for students, are certainly useful in art and music schools, so why not in creative writing schools? But many of the exercises are so damn silly. Some are like the various improbable cures for hiccups people have, only the idea behind these is "to unblock or to free the creative impulse of the writer." Does the world need more refrigerator magnet poems? Now I don't teach, so I don't have clue how hard or easy it is to teach creative writing. And I imagine any tool will be worthwhile in the hands of a good teacher. But in talking with writers, I never seem to hear one say (or should I say, admit) that a certain writing exercise was the basis for a breakthrough in his/her writing-- "Last night, before going to bed, I cut out words from the Personals section of the newspaper, then I placed them in my pillowcase. Next morning I shook them out on the sheet and wrote a love poem like I've never written before." Perhaps most poets prefer not to credit the exercise because of its inherent artificiality. Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:34:14 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: phony homophony MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit David Bromige's homophonic version of Neruda's "Lament" provoked me to the following massacree of Neruda's "Ode to French Fries" [from _Odes to Common Things_, Little, Brown: 1996]. My ignorance of Spanish no doubt vies with Bromige's, but I like the sense of looking through centuries-old glass at an event not quite identifiable yet fascinating which this technique affords. First, the Spanish: Oda a las papas fritas Chisporrotea en el aciete hirviendo la alegría del mundo: las papas fritas entran en la sartén como nevadas plumas de cisne matutino y salen semidoradas por el crepitante ámbar de las olivas. El ajo les añade su terrenal fragancia, la pimienta, polen que atravesó los arrecifes, y vestidas de nuevo con traje de marfil, llenan el plato con la repetición de su abundancia y su sabrosa sencillez de tierra. +++++++ A dust-lip bobby's frieze Just for a day, an ale as yet, hey, herby, and oh, all agree, a tall moon-dew (less Papa's Fritos end-run) unless our din go moan Nevada's bloom as daisies name a duty? No, Is Silent Sammy to rate us all crap? It ain't he on board the last oily bus. A lie, oh, lays on yr day so the rain'll frog-grunt "See ya, low-beam yenta, bowling got raves a loser receives." He, best he does, the New Wave. Oh, contrite marvel, yen & all blotto, gone all Rep, a dizzy one, the swab, undone seer. Ease who's sub rosa, since he is the terror. --Daniel Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:36:24 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: writing exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I admit that some of the poems I am happiest with have been produced at least partly by chance and other methods and that I cannot usually remember wch are wch. I am glad I confessed. I feel better. Lawrence Upton > Now I don't teach, so I don't have clue how hard > or easy it is to teach creative writing. And I imagine > any tool will be worthwhile in the hands of a good teacher. > But in talking with writers, I never seem to hear one say > (or should I say, admit) that a certain writing exercise > was the basis for a breakthrough in his/her writing-- > "Last night, before going to bed, I cut out words from the > Personals section of the newspaper, then I placed them > in my pillowcase. Next morning I shook them out on > the sheet and wrote a love poem like I've never written > before." Perhaps most poets prefer not to credit the > exercise because of its inherent artificiality. > > Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 17:52:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: requiem for pedagogy / spicer teaser In-Reply-To: <199709132136.WAA17967@tycho.global.net.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII one does something in one's own work one likes (won) and when it comes time to talk a teacher one takes this thing apart and shows how to build it back up no more no less. as where market and calculus are in contact in derivatives. or dhydrtd fds. hey congratulations Kevin Killian the Spicer in Minn in the ILS this month is terrific. You and your co-author are to be co-mmended. May the book when it arrives get noticed around the world! Jordan ps is bc really a landmass formerly known as so.california? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 20:01:51 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: Message of Sat, 13 Sep 1997 16:46:46 -0400 from We go to school & learn the rules of grammar, we grow up & learn social behavior, how to behave in a seemly manner so as not to make ourselves impossible, etc. Writing exercises are meant to shake up those rules by means of new rules - instigate exploration of new possibilities. But I agree with Finnegan that technique fades quickly into gimmimimicry which easily kills poetry. To mistake techniques for creativity & imagination - this is another aspect of the great rationalist leveler in all of us which grinds down the unique & inexplicable into categories & explained stuff. The necessary image or motive draws the handy technique like a magnet - exactly the OPPOSITE process from the classroom experiment. I'm sure the authentic poet-teachers out there make that clear, but I wouldn't know. I wrote a poem once, a long poem, called White City. About halfway through I started alluding or echoing previous particular lines in a mathematical way - & simultaneously creating sort of a Finneganesque distortion. I did discover something ODD doing this - toward the end of the poem as the math-allusions got more dense & the distortions more severe, the poem started to tell a story - a narrative-inside-the-poem. My point is that in my mind the only clear benefit of this "technique" is that it led to something unplanned. If that hadn't happened, the gimmick would have laid siege to & eventually strangled White City. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 20:41:05 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: writing exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry: "White City" as in the Columbian Exposition? [The mathematical involution would make sense, if so. I came across it in a book by Alan Trachtenberg, _The Incorporation of America_, which I reviewed several years back for Jack Clarke's _intent._] Where did that [did it?] appear? --Dan Zimmerman henry gould wrote: > > We go to school & learn the rules of grammar, we grow up & learn social > behavior, how to behave in a seemly manner so as not to make ourselves > impossible, etc. Writing exercises are meant to shake up those rules by > means of new rules - instigate exploration of new possibilities. > But I agree with Finnegan that technique fades quickly into gimmimimicry > which easily kills poetry. To mistake techniques for creativity & > imagination - this is another aspect of the great rationalist leveler > in all of us which grinds down the unique & inexplicable into categories > & explained stuff. The necessary image or motive draws the handy technique > like a magnet - exactly the OPPOSITE process from the classroom experiment. > I'm sure the authentic poet-teachers out there make that clear, but I wouldn't > know. > > I wrote a poem once, a long poem, called White City. About halfway through > I started alluding or echoing previous particular lines in a mathematical > way - & simultaneously creating sort of a Finneganesque distortion. > I did discover something ODD doing this - toward the end of the poem as the > math-allusions got more dense & the distortions more severe, the poem > started to tell a story - a narrative-inside-the-poem. My point is that > in my mind the only clear benefit of this "technique" is that it led to > something unplanned. If that hadn't happened, the gimmick would have > laid siege to & eventually strangled White City. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:54:31 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: writing exercises (and an ANNOUNCEMENT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unless I'm misreading what Henry's saying in his latest posting, I disagree with him in a couple of spots. First of all, I don't see that technique NECESSARILY fades quickly into "gimmimimicry" any more than images or motives necessarily fade quickly into cliche. Nor do I understand why it would be a "mistake" to confuse techniques for creativity and imagination. What's uncreative about inventing a new technique, or using an old one brilliantly? Why shouldn't an effective technique "draw" the right image as easily as the reverse? Sure, a poem that's all technique is unlikely to be too hot, but why would a poem that's all image or motive be any better? Anyhow, my practice as a poet is to take anything I can as a starting point; if it's an image, then I hunt for a technique that'll unprose it; if a technique, then I hunt for an image it'll work with. Consistent result: all my poems that use post-1950 techniques get accused of being mere gimmickry. AND NOW AN ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THIS POSTING'S SPONSOR, THE RUNAWAY SPOON PRESS: 7 new offerings now available for money or trade: -Ocracy, parts 5 - 7 by Sheila Murphy and Peter Ganick Broken Poems for Evita by John Elsberg [Un Nome} by Michael Basinski Falling Down by Mark Peters Number Poems by Irving Weiss Five Days Shy of February by Jonathan Levant E.mail me for further information. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:33:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: tech tach toe In reply to Bob Grumman: technique doesn't NECESSARILY fade into gimmimicry. I said it EASILY fades into said. As image & motive do into cliche, as you say. I'm seeing it like a spatial continuum I guess, not a logical outcome. Technique/gimmick. Image/cliche. All WRITING is technique. But poetry isn't encompassed by writing. (Maybe Derrida disagrees, I dunno.) Writing programs sell "writing." Like, you too can be a capital P. Here, try these techniques. Imagination/creativity get processed & sold too, as we know. But I still say they are different from technique. Sure, there's imaginative use of techni que. No argument there. But technique, on the other hand, is no proof of imagination - in fact it's often a crutch (in the avant-garde as well as the retro-garde) for lack of same. Check your own lame lines (everybody). Inflated blurb as interpretant of smooth gimmick. Creativity - is that a juicier way of putting it than imagination? Or how about "inscape". Then there's always "fate". The poem is a stone fallen from heaven. No one judges it. (Mandelstam) - Henry the Quoter of Osip Mandelstam ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 10:54:57 +0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weldon Subject: A Song of Despair Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I characterize this century as the one of "form will set you free". Form, no form, different form, form exercises, form-is-content, content-is-form, form as language, language as form, form-of-thought, no-thought-form, a sea of forms eroding continents of form bequeathed. The rats eat my notebooks of form and I am glad they are nourished. There was a time when all I had was form and Neruda and myself. I exercised an exploration of the place Neruda showed me. Twenty exercises and a poem, Twenty love poems and La Cancion Desesperada. Play is creative, liberating and prepares us for what we live when play is done. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:16:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: writing exercises Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I find it odd that James Finnegan writes that he never hears a poet admit that such-&-such an exercise led to a breakthru in his poetry, so soon after I posted two poems which I said were that, for me. Perhaps others on this List would care to testify to the value of some writing exercise either to their own poetry, or that of others. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 21:35:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: A Song of Despair ---------- From: Rebecca Weldon[SMTP:rcweldon@LOXINFO.CO.TH] Sent: Saturday, September 13, 1997 8:54 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: A Song of Despair I characterize this century as the one of "form will set you free". Form, no form, different form, form exercises, form-is-content, content-is-form, form as language, language as form, form-of-thought, no-thought-form, a sea of forms eroding continents of form bequeathed. The rats eat my notebooks of form and I am glad they are nourished. There was a time when all I had was form and Neruda and myself. I exercised an exploration of the place Neruda showed me. Twenty exercises and a poem, Twenty love poems and La Cancion Desesperada. Play is creative, liberating and prepares us for what we live when play is done. hell, &i thought it was all play. you mean it isn't? I'm done for. red. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:17:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: writing exercises - derived works 'great poems' and 'breakthrus' are stoppers since i can't claim either and won't if/until more than a few tell me otherwise - but here's a few that came/were-directly prompted by exercises the past few months: 'Homo Vocalis' - (Recursive Angel) ex. from Alien flowers (Joy Acey) 'Hot Oil' - (Zuzu's Petal's) - ex. from Poetry Cafe 'Natural Practices - ex. from Alien Flowers (Tom Williams) 'Ballad of Emma Good' - ex. from APW (Janet Holmes) 'Still Life with Moon' - ex. from APW (scott Reid) 'Still Life with Statue' (current finalist PEII) - Tom Williams ex. 'Isle du Goree' - ex. Alien Flowers (Mary Tomaselli) '15th day of Prana' - ex. Alien Flowers (Joy Acey) 'Two Brushes' - soco poets (Layne Russell) et. al. here's a couple - nothing shattering, avant or langpo - but if they look like exercises then I stand corrected. Still Life with Statue She stands for seeming hours, mimes hardly moving, imperceptible changes query in the hesitant ranges, moves on over open ground, soundless. She has finally mastered invisibility, sewed a cloak that bends the light to impossibly uninteresting angles barely breathing at the margins; a sustained aikedo defeating attention. In Mauroc they remove the shine, cover with hijab, deform glances, walk astride a hobbled gait as if to say Allah has not visited, who wants that? She says nothing, involves no one, her immobility stretches over canvass, no startled birds emerge, white gesso glaze redoubles the sunlight, hiding the texture of grass at her feet, stones cover her eyes. He is young, vibrant, attentive, a gaze that says you need to know, shows good teeth, speaks taste and patience while a brief gust blows a kiss of paper cup her way, a make-do vase for a sudden bouquet thought that withers without an address. The small hour brushes shady hues across the vacant stare of afternoon. Stones cave inward, so densely grey Erato's arbor only thickens in its wall at the silence of such perfect refutation. While nightfall drapes, a dust cloud on the pond studies her reflection. ------------ Natural Practices As a child, i run my fingers over stone feeling shadows flee, not idle time for me brailling the earth this way, lessons for the day when i must choose how to walk upon living things; and when i run my fingers bumpity-bumpity over the fence holes is it not to inspect the notions of worlds within worlds that someday i will meet behind barriers i must overcome, wish them away that i may heed any beckon from beyond? And on a sunny day, if i should dig a hole in the yard and then crawl down into the cool dampness of earth pressed to my back and trace the meaning of my eye as it slowly moves along the strata of a hundred years, have i not begun to puzzle the riddle of my ancestors, the chains of being that are forged and reforged with each succession? When i pick my nose i am amazed that portions of my body detach in such pliant supple forms that tickle strangely wet and gelled in unpredictable shapes, sweet and sour. And should i not wonder at the ways i will become, the parts of me that will liquefy and slide along the demanding trails and impossibly dry narrow crawl-ways that lie before me? When i touch my toes, is it not a journey in enumeration of places unrevealed for which i am already highly adapted; write simple lessons on the bilateral symmetry of wiggling things? When i reach into the not quite there, absent and unformed, vague thoughts watch the ten great teachers of the world disappear into a mist beyond which i cannot penetrate, where the star-shaped limbs of me are radially motivated. Should i not wonder if this vanishing point continues to grow, to consume until there is no more me? I play among the eidos in the second-hand shop of God, filled with things known only by their gestures long after the costumes which once wore them have departed. I string the gestures into beads of thought, the thoughts into rosaries of vision, the visions into new costumes. With these I will confront the gestures of the unknown, again and again, like a scimitar without a Saracen. And if the blade turns upon itself, slicing through the string of questions, what then? In the mirror of antiquities I see my reflection instantly melanize and disappear. Should I not try to illuminate the eidolon that lives there and dines on angels when it can; forages for passing shadow scraps when it cannot? And if I find it, do I also become dark and gloomy? Is it here, in this soundless priory of hallways, the vanished parts have gone, to haunt me forever, as a man? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:53:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: writing exercises - on employment there is another way i've used exercises - as sketches and problem solvers for other more ambitious pieces. For instance, 'Still Life with Statue' was first suggested as an exercise in which the central figure had to be entirely passive - no voice/no action - At the same time I had been working on a much larger piece, 'Glimpses' that required a full description of a figure that hardly appears. SLS was used to solve some of those problems and the solutions transfered to the longer work. In that, I felt the process somewhat akin to the plastic or visual arts where preliminary sketches or models (exercises) may be made - and become works in their own right. In SLS the sketch did not resemble an actual part of the larger work - but still the process felt similar to one i'd used in sculpting and painting. red. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:29:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: Unprosing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What does Bob Grumman mean by hunting for a technique to "unprose" an image? Does this suggest something like that word "versify"? As in, "William, those daffodils look so gay, ever glancing, ever changing!" A poet could not but be gay to unprose that. Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 02:12:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: requiem for pedagogy / spicer teaser j-- tried to get to your webpage & was denied. send me that add again? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:35:40 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L.MacMahon and T.R.Healy" Subject: writing exercises Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At the risk of being obvious, the Greek word for art was techne. Not suggesting we should all wear short skirts and carry shields, though I'm not against that either. Is there any reason why the two approaches: deliberation/inspiration should be mutually exclusive whether at the same or at different times? Coming from a country where thinking is regarded as cheating and all forms of "holism" routinely excise the intellect I find myself sympathetic to the idea of writing exercises. Certainly, having read David Bromige's beautiful examples this morning, I would find it difficult to accept that such exercises cannot result in poetry. Looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Also the idea that writing can be a pleasure, intellectually or otherwise, becomes unusually attractive when the background count of fake anguish rises beyond safe limits. (One year I did a word count on the British Arts Council's annual anthology and the most frequent lexical extrusion was "dark", beating even the definite article.) Read no further unless you are willing to exercise. Start with one word. Generate further words by (a) inserting (b) deleting a letter and (c) anagrammising or inverting the order. This is part of how genes mutate. There follows a 2-dimensional example, taken from a work in progress (Note to those who feel like giving up after the first line: it's in the second stanza) cheers, Randolph Healy ****** the zenith semi-circle now hooping Sumer Akkad Babylon Assyrian Persian Hellene (layers of coloured sand) will arrive in less than four hours. Change charge chart chants chance matches aches haunches chases arches search crashes charms smears screams marches ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 01:09:26 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: writing exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Bromige wrote: > > I find it odd that James Finnegan writes that he never hears a poet admit > that such-&-such an exercise led to a breakthru in his poetry, so soon > after I posted two poems which I said were that, for me. Perhaps others on > this List would care to testify to the value of some writing exercise > either to their own poetry, or that of others. David I have often found "exercises" or parameters of some kind to have helped me produce pieces that took me into new places. Sometimes the subject matter alone is the new territory. I value stimulation in any form that brings me to write a new poem. I never value those poems less because they were instigated in this way. Layne http://www.sonic.net/layne "A Quiet Place" -- Poetry http://www.sonic.net/layne/calendar.html "Poets Leave Their Prints" -- Poetry Calendar ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 17:52:32 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: <199709140735.IAA21472@mail.iol.ie> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII isn't a canzone an exercise? would "A" count as a masterpiece that comes from various writing exercises? my problem is that I am not sure I understand what is meant by "exercise" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:55:30 -0400 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Unprosing & Tech Tach Toe MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I tried to answer Mark Baker's inquiry as to what I meant "by hunting for a technique to 'unprose' an image" with a 300,000-word monograph plus seventeen attachments, but list-gatekeeper Joel Kuszai for some reason wouldn't let it through. So here's a second, shorter try. A technique to unprose an image is one whose purpose is to lift the image out of its prosaism, to invest it with a more-than-common sensual richness. Versification as in Wordsworth's daffodil poem (another favorite of mine) would be one such technique, but there are many others: metaphorization, infra-verbal deconstruction or scrambling (as Randolph Healy is doing), various visual devices, parataxis, mathematicalization, even the simple lineation that Williams used to unprose his red wheelbarrow. Note: such techniques can be used in prose--as in a modest way I used neologization to unprose the image (or concept) "make poetry of" in the prose passage of my previous posting--since prose needn't be ALL prose, just mainly prose. Now back to Henry Gould. I like the Mandelstam quotation--except for the idea that no one judges poetry. Everyone judges poetry (and everything else), however unconsciously. To be cultured is to judge consciously. As for our discussion, I suspect we're close to agreement and just arguing nuances. Technique of course can be used as a crutch, as can anything else in poetry or any other field. It IS different from imagination: it's what imagination uses to make art. Experience plus technique plus imagination equal art. Drop any of the three and you get cleverness without depth (technique plus imagination), confusion (experience plus imagination) or deadly predictability (experience plus technique). --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:56:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: fwd on modernism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Keith, or anyone? Please respond directly to the sender, not to me. Thanks, Sylvester. >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Date: Sat, 13 Sep 1997 22:45:47 -0400 >Reply-To: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine > >Sender: Ezra Pound discussion list of the University of Maine > >From: "Hilary J. Binda" >Subject: help-listservs >To: EPOUND-L@MAINE.MAINE.EDU > >I am searching desperately for listservs on literary/academic >modernism, British modernism in particular. Do you know of any others? > >I am trying to find in particular a network of English graduate >students working in the field of British modernism and ready to go >onto the job market for a university faculty position. I would be >grateful for any information about such networks that you might have. > >Thanks very much, > >Hilary Binda >English Department >Tufts University ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:01:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Poetics Digest/Exercises Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'll second Rebecca's note on play in my own 2 cents. I use exercises -- the more "rote" and the more silly the better -- as throwaways with students, treating them as ways to unlock when self-consciousness and the weight of unassimilated theory makes them nervous. Sometimes there are great results, sometimes not, but the trick in order for this to be a limberer is not to focus on the results but on the play of it. Or so I've found. Susan Wheeler wheeler@is.nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:10:42 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: email addresses Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone got email or snail addresses for: Charles Amirkhanian Ellen Zweig Backchannel please. Thanks. Alaric Sumner words worth language arts ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:02:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Hannah Wiener Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When with Hannah Wiener you knew you would be recognized for what you radiate. When through a locked door you hear a sound, voice wanting to enter, it is not from beyond it is the door you have to open. No friend more difficult than truth, in which everything simple is so subtle, ineluctable. I befall you; I am an accident. Whom will you find to leave me behind? Tom Mandel Tom Mandel tmandel@screenporch.com ******************************************************** Screen Porch * http://screenporch.com 4020 Williamsburg Ct, Ste 200 * vox: 202-362-1679 Fairfax, VA 22031 * fax: 202-364-5349 ******************************************************** Join the Caucus Conversation ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 07:15:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Hannah Weiner Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit TRIBUTE TO HANNAH WEINER Hannah cared immensely about her writing, and she was interested in having people read and hear her work. In memory of Hannah, I am offering one of her major works, SPOKE, at a 50% discount. The price is $3.50. Please contact me at djmess@sunmoon.com In memory of Hannah, I am posting, below one of her later works, an incredible story/memoir/fantasty/ journal titled "astral visions." This will appear in MR. KNIFE, MISS FORK: PERFORMANCES i want to discuss astrals, the visions and i want to begin with paw because he seems to have started his existence three years ago this coming january and still exists the reason to discuss paw is that he is one of the teachers and gives me instruction continually and in the three years i've known him, or that he has appeared, he's grown in intelligence and acuteness and accuracy and he also happens to be the funniest person that i know he didn't start out as paw and i will tell you the story it all begins the day i went to cancun three years ago when an invisible man walked into my bedroom and i could just see the outline of his parka, and he dressed me very slowly, i was still sweating, (or I was sweating then as well), in a black lace bra and white cotton panties and then he put a finger up the leg of my panties and tickled my hip-bone very chastely and said "coochi-coo" and made me lie very still in between dressing so i wouldn't sweat the rest of it was up to me i got on the plane and nothing happened until the meal was served when there was a voice saying, "ma, eat the chocolate mousse, ask for more?" we got to cancun and i put my suitcase down on a little table for suitcases, and overhead i heard the clash of arms after the clash of arms i heard a woman's voice from the yoga institute saying "well now we unpack our suitcases and put our undies neatly on the shelf" i automatically began to unzip the suitcase to unpack it and the invisible man grabbed me by the back of my parka and made me get undressed i was soaking wet, my hair, my body, my clothes, everything and he made me get undressed i hung up my clothes in deference to the yoga lady i put my underwear and socks in the sink with some soapy water and the invisible man pushed me into the shower where I took a shampoo and washed off the sweat the invisble man disappeared the next thing that happened was purely mechanical, I tried to get about a half dozen blankets to wrap myself up in because it was pouring rain and it was cold i made a blanket roll of five blankets after i discovered that you lie in the middle and you throw one blanket over the other, (you begin on one side and rolling over them), and i put a blanket on top of all that right up to my chin, and under- neath the blanket appeared the bear i don't know that i called him paw at this time or that he called himself paw at this time, but he was a brown bear and i could see his head and his eyes and his nose peaking out from underneath the top blanket and he had one paw chastely placed on my chest between my breasts saying, "i have a real maw," and he stayed under the covers for four weeks (i was there for four weeks trying to get a place out but couldn't) and every once in awhile he'd say something like, "order more chocolate cake ma" and "I have a real ma" and "my jaw hurts" the interesting thing that i have to say about the bear is that he's an astral for an indian someone has invented for him- self an astral that speaks for him in the form of a bear in some indian legends a bear is a healer, not that paw has ever done any healing for me,"* but his instructions were bood, except at the beginning he really wasn't doing too much after four weeks when the sun came out and it got really hot he walked out in full brown fur saying, "see you onthe plane ma" __________ * but I have felt his real self sending me bliss __________ [now one thing happened in mexico that i'd like to talk about and that's the man from sonora who appeared astral this is a little interlude about paw the man from sonora appeared in my bedroom three times before i left ny, just his white hat and his long white hair and once a blanket over his shoulder before the ruins i got the message the first week i was there that he wanted to meet the woman with the long pipe (that's me) and he appeared in image form and he showed me a blanket trick that explained a little bit of castanida to me he was obviously an ancient mexican teacher who wanted to say certain things before he died and to pass on some of his knowledge he kept flipping the blanket (all of these things were very, very vividly seen) the blanket was sort of like in squares of different colors with a black outline now the black outline always remained the same but the patterns and colors of the squares kept changing so the lesson learned from that you could create an image but you couldn't keep it constant, you had to keep chaning the image he also had people circling the room, flying over- head in a circle that's something i'm not able to do myself and neither or any of the other teachers some of them can fly straight but nobody is able to circle it isn't really necessary, it's a matter of who is watching whom it's a way of guarding to have the man from sonora told me two things, he said "always give a health diagnosis out loud" and "to speak slow while speaking silent" because of the rain and because he wanted to meet me he made a long trip up the road from the ruins to the hotel and evidently he broke a leg or something happened and he fell in a ditch by the wayside and one night I woke up crying and sang a crossing song from "the big huge," it's something about a great light crossing the river, so i knew the man had died then appeared a woman, an elderly woman who evidently put a cross by hisbones and who the following day showed me his white hat, his white shirt, and white pants all neatly laundered and pressed out, so i know the man had died] ok, now the bear lots of other things happened in mexico but i don't have time for them i want to talk about paw when i got home the bear was very small, he had changed shape to a very small brown bear who lived in a cupboard in my forehead it had blue sheets and if i looked through catalogs and he saw some clothes that he liked he would immediately appear with the clothes on particularly a pair of black bicycling shorts and some wading shoes i tried to keep him occupied and i sent him on trips one was skiing in south america, and one was sending him to the south pole, and finally he decided to take his real ma on a honeymoon or whatever, a vacation and they went aboard a great big ocean liner and she, i think she was called ma belle, sat on a deck chair lounging on the deck of the ship and paw, or the bear, was flying overhead in circles because he was bored sitting on the deck when they got to france they rented a limousine and paw donned a chauffeurs cap and drove the limousine and all through france all is saw were pile and iles of spaghetti, that's all they seemed to eat for some reason also paw invented travelers checks so that he could pay for this whole thing this is the imagination of someone whose name is unknown but who has invented a form through which he can work so this was just sort of fun at the time you must remember that paw has written a great deal for me he wrote "the comma" in SILENT TEACHERS with noah kleinman my friend from england and he wrote "turpitudimous" which i read in october and he also gets in everywhere when i type up anything for the next book called WE SPEAK SILENT, or whatever it's going to be called finally paw and ma belle landed on a caribbean island, just the two of them under the shade of a palm tree the next thing i know paw turned into a great big white bear, not his final form he was called poohee at the time i went for a walk in the park and poohee got locked in the apartment and had to squeeze himself through the keyhole and i was accompanied in imae form by two people from the yoga institute one dressed in white who was walking alongside me and one who was dressed in pink who was sort of flying along beside me and poohee caught up and started smooching, you know he started sort of leaning over and kissing me or pretending to kiss me, or to tickle me or to laugh to make it a lovers lane walk and i started to laugh hysterically and i thought what will ever happen if i'm picked up by somebody, here i am talking to someone who is invisible an; oh well he was very funny the next time i went to the park paw* left the path and went over to some antique fair and came back with a velvet vest on it was a lilac velvet vest with red braid and green stones and an earring i laughed i talked to a girlfriend on the phone a few nights later and she was a very beautiful girl and paw clued me into the fact that i was talking to a very beautiful woman and he went out to see her and the next morning he appeared combing hair out of his teeth and the green stones were gone from his vest somewhere along the way his real ma got pregnant and we were walking along 14th street with the open stalls and he saw a bunch of little girls dresses he wanted a "pinkie" as he called it little girls dresses with little angel sleeves and some towels so he quickly donned a striped apron and cap imaged a big cart in front of him and trundled off piles of baby dresses with angel wing sleeves and towels, and brought them back to the apartment and we had to box them and ship them and send them all to his home he used to sit on the bed next to me reading the new york times with steel rimmed glasses the last time i really saw paw in any remarkable circumstance was at woodstock he had disappeared for awhile, he said "maw I have to go hime, something important is happening" and i was having breakfast at a coffee shop and there appeared paw sitting across the table from me with a big grin and next to him was a white lady bear, a daintier, felt to be a gentle with a wreath and a long bridal veil and they were toasting each other in white coffee cups that was the summer i hurt my back and the lady bear would appear with a pink apron and a cup on a tray and would bring me coffee or tea or whatever well i guess that's paw no maw im still really working hard besides paw and mrs paw there is a baby bear. *he was now in his final form, a large white bear with a big fat tummy. c 1997 by Hannah Weiner Charles Bernstein saw the original performance of this. Perhaps he will recount some of his impression of it. Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:27:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jarnot@PIPELINE.COM Subject: Poetry Project Readings, Fall 97 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The following readings will be taking place at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's Church in NYC this fall: October 8: Bernadette Mayer & Barbara Guest October 15: Edwin Torres & Rod Smith October 22: Jena Osman & Fiona Templeton October 29: Prageeta Sharma & Stephen Rodefer November 5: Rosmarie Waldrop & Jacques Roubaud November 12: Peter Gizzi & Lorenzo Thomas November 19: Charlotte Carter & Lydia Davis These readings are on Wednesday nights at 8:00 pm. The Poetry Project is located at East 10th Street and 2nd Avenue in Saint Mark's Church. Program coordinators for the series are Eleni Sikelianos and Lisa Jarnot. Jarnot@pipeline.com box 185/NY, NY 10009 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 09:45:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner ---------- From: Douglas[SMTP:djmess@CINENET.NET] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 1997 7:15 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Hannah Weiner TRIBUTE TO HANNAH WEINER Hannah cared immensely about her writing, and she was interested in having people read and hear her work. In memory of Hannah, I am offering one of her major works, SPOKE, at a 50% discount. The price is $3.50. Please contact me at djmess@sunmoon.com In memory of Hannah, I am posting, below one of her later works, an incredible story/memoir/fantasty/ journal titled "astral visions." This will appear in MR. KNIFE, MISS FORK: PERFORMANCES i want to discuss astrals, the visions and i want to begin with paw because he seems to have started his existence three years ago this coming january and still exists the reason to discuss paw is that he is one of the teachers and gives me instruction continually and in the three years i've known him, or that he has appeared, he's grown in intelligence and acuteness and accuracy and he also happens to be the funniest person that i know he didn't start out as paw and i will tell you the story it all begins the day i went to cancun three years ago when an invisible man walked into my bedroom and i could just see the outline of his parka, and he dressed me very slowly, i was still sweating, (or I was sweating then as well), in a black lace bra and white cotton panties and then he put a finger up the leg of my panties and tickled my hip-bone very chastely and said "coochi-coo" and made me lie very still in between dressing so i wouldn't sweat the rest of it was up to me i got on the plane and nothing happened until the meal was served when there was a voice saying, "ma, eat the chocolate mousse, ask for more?" we got to cancun and i put my suitcase down on a little table for suitcases, and overhead i heard the clash of arms after the clash of arms i heard a woman's voice from the yoga institute saying "well now we unpack our suitcases and put our undies neatly on the shelf" i automatically began to unzip the suitcase to unpack it and the invisible man grabbed me by the back of my parka and made me get undressed i was soaking wet, my hair, my body, my clothes, everything and he made me get undressed i hung up my clothes in deference to the yoga lady i put my underwear and socks in the sink with some soapy water and the invisible man pushed me into the shower where I took a shampoo and washed off the sweat the invisble man disappeared the next thing that happened was purely mechanical, I tried to get about a half dozen blankets to wrap myself up in because it was pouring rain and it was cold i made a blanket roll of five blankets after i discovered that you lie in the middle and you throw one blanket over the other, (you begin on one side and rolling over them), and i put a blanket on top of all that right up to my chin, and under- neath the blanket appeared the bear i don't know that i called him paw at this time or that he called himself paw at this time, but he was a brown bear and i could see his head and his eyes and his nose peaking out from underneath the top blanket and he had one paw chastely placed on my chest between my breasts saying, "i have a real maw," and he stayed under the covers for four weeks (i was there for four weeks trying to get a place out but couldn't) and every once in awhile he'd say something like, "order more chocolate cake ma" and "I have a real ma" and "my jaw hurts" the interesting thing that i have to say about the bear is that he's an astral for an indian someone has invented for him- self an astral that speaks for him in the form of a bear in some indian legends a bear is a healer, not that paw has ever done any healing for me,"* but his instructions were bood, except at the beginning he really wasn't doing too much after four weeks when the sun came out and it got really hot he walked out in full brown fur saying, "see you onthe plane ma" __________ * but I have felt his real self sending me bliss __________ [now one thing happened in mexico that i'd like to talk about and that's the man from sonora who appeared astral this is a little interlude about paw the man from sonora appeared in my bedroom three times before i left ny, just his white hat and his long white hair and once a blanket over his shoulder before the ruins i got the message the first week i was there that he wanted to meet the woman with the long pipe (that's me) and he appeared in image form and he showed me a blanket trick that explained a little bit of castanida to me he was obviously an ancient mexican teacher who wanted to say certain things before he died and to pass on some of his knowledge he kept flipping the blanket (all of these things were very, very vividly seen) the blanket was sort of like in squares of different colors with a black outline now the black outline always remained the same but the patterns and colors of the squares kept changing so the lesson learned from that you could create an image but you couldn't keep it constant, you had to keep chaning the image he also had people circling the room, flying over- head in a circle that's something i'm not able to do myself and neither or any of the other teachers some of them can fly straight but nobody is able to circle it isn't really necessary, it's a matter of who is watching whom it's a way of guarding to have the man from sonora told me two things, he said "always give a health diagnosis out loud" and "to speak slow while speaking silent" because of the rain and because he wanted to meet me he made a long trip up the road from the ruins to the hotel and evidently he broke a leg or something happened and he fell in a ditch by the wayside and one night I woke up crying and sang a crossing song from "the big huge," it's something about a great light crossing the river, so i knew the man had died then appeared a woman, an elderly woman who evidently put a cross by hisbones and who the following day showed me his white hat, his white shirt, and white pants all neatly laundered and pressed out, so i know the man had died] ok, now the bear lots of other things happened in mexico but i don't have time for them i want to talk about paw when i got home the bear was very small, he had changed shape to a very small brown bear who lived in a cupboard in my forehead it had blue sheets and if i looked through catalogs and he saw some clothes that he liked he would immediately appear with the clothes on particularly a pair of black bicycling shorts and some wading shoes i tried to keep him occupied and i sent him on trips one was skiing in south america, and one was sending him to the south pole, and finally he decided to take his real ma on a honeymoon or whatever, a vacation and they went aboard a great big ocean liner and she, i think she was called ma belle, sat on a deck chair lounging on the deck of the ship and paw, or the bear, was flying overhead in circles because he was bored sitting on the deck when they got to france they rented a limousine and paw donned a chauffeurs cap and drove the limousine and all through france all is saw were pile and iles of spaghetti, that's all they seemed to eat for some reason also paw invented travelers checks so that he could pay for this whole thing this is the imagination of someone whose name is unknown but who has invented a form through which he can work so this was just sort of fun at the time you must remember that paw has written a great deal for me he wrote "the comma" in SILENT TEACHERS with noah kleinman my friend from england and he wrote "turpitudimous" which i read in october and he also gets in everywhere when i type up anything for the next book called WE SPEAK SILENT, or whatever it's going to be called finally paw and ma belle landed on a caribbean island, just the two of them under the shade of a palm tree the next thing i know paw turned into a great big white bear, not his final form he was called poohee at the time i went for a walk in the park and poohee got locked in the apartment and had to squeeze himself through the keyhole and i was accompanied in imae form by two people from the yoga institute one dressed in white who was walking alongside me and one who was dressed in pink who was sort of flying along beside me and poohee caught up and started smooching, you know he started sort of leaning over and kissing me or pretending to kiss me, or to tickle me or to laugh to make it a lovers lane walk and i started to laugh hysterically and i thought what will ever happen if i'm picked up by somebody, here i am talking to someone who is invisible an; oh well he was very funny the next time i went to the park paw* left the path and went over to some antique fair and came back with a velvet vest on it was a lilac velvet vest with red braid and green stones and an earring i laughed i talked to a girlfriend on the phone a few nights later and she was a very beautiful girl and paw clued me into the fact that i was talking to a very beautiful woman and he went out to see her and the next morning he appeared combing hair out of his teeth and the green stones were gone from his vest somewhere along the way his real ma got pregnant and we were walking along 14th street with the open stalls and he saw a bunch of little girls dresses he wanted a "pinkie" as he called it little girls dresses with little angel sleeves and some towels so he quickly donned a striped apron and cap imaged a big cart in front of him and trundled off piles of baby dresses with angel wing sleeves and towels, and brought them back to the apartment and we had to box them and ship them and send them all to his home he used to sit on the bed next to me reading the new york times with steel rimmed glasses the last time i really saw paw in any remarkable circumstance was at woodstock he had disappeared for awhile, he said "maw I have to go hime, something important is happening" and i was having breakfast at a coffee shop and there appeared paw sitting across the table from me with a big grin and next to him was a white lady bear, a daintier, felt to be a gentle with a wreath and a long bridal veil and they were toasting each other in white coffee cups that was the summer i hurt my back and the lady bear would appear with a pink apron and a cup on a tray and would bring me coffee or tea or whatever well i guess that's paw no maw im still really working hard besides paw and mrs paw there is a baby bear. *he was now in his final form, a large white bear with a big fat tummy. c 1997 by Hannah Weiner Charles Bernstein saw the original performance of this. Perhaps he will recount some of his impression of it. Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:58:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: remembered sequel This is a review written a few years ago which I never published thinking to say more. Hannah thought it was done. Looking at it now, she was right. HANNAH Hi on _silent teachers / remembered sequel_, Hannah Weiner, Tender Buttons, $7.95. _particles marm, have we discussed particles_ The thing about being clairvoyant is the multiplicity can't be divided. Time causes the trouble of keeping up. Seeing so much simultaneously that the depend & the enact gather the motion into each each-- it can get kinda spikey _i free i see super working silent_ Location leads to narrative. Narrative leads to namings (i.e. motions (i emotions ( in others (i, i, i, i))). This is WRITING (_also drumming_) -- a bunk as in bed that implicates all friends. Hannah has it. Technical talk: Narrative of where is it. No Nylon. Nobody won't not publish this in this since-- they all see words w/out since. That's a key (canons in cities) which being brightly (like a phone call from fire) would cause one to speak 3-D SO all I mean is read this book out loud period period dot & period --Rod Smith ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:12:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: email addresses In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" any one go t an e address for mark wallace? pls back-c --md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:09:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Celia M White Subject: Re: writing ex. In-Reply-To: <199709140404.AAA17662@mailhub.acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I do teach writing, to 4th graders and mental health clients and high school students and working adults. Excersizes help people relax, especially when they don't already have a writing practice. the most talented students I have often saythey never write on their own, because they don't know how to get themselves started. When they have a list of open-ended options, they often do start, at least a little. My point as a teacher is entirely to get people writing, anything; once they have this habit, the journey takes them. I use Natalie GOldberg, John Gardener's The Art of Fiction, the new Practice of Poetry edited by Twitchell and Behn, stuff I make up, stuff kids suggest. (One popular one: "I'm hungry for....") Whatever helps, helps. Celia White cmwhite@acsu.buffalo.edu SILS Box 35 "One cuts oneself far more often with a dull knife than with a sharp one." ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:26:26 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) My condolences to Charles Bernstein & others who were close to Hannah Weiner. Over the past ten or twelve years, I taught Hannah's writing in my contemporary poetry classes, and I corresponded a bit with her about her writing and about teaching her work. Initially, her writing would evoke great skepticism (particularly among the graduate students in creative writing). Of course, we found various analogous writings in our immediate surroundings--mystic script writing of a number of folk artists, for example (JB Murry, the Reverend Perkins, Howard Finster, Fred Webster, and so on). Others have commented on the fusion of the personal and the experimental in Hannah's writing; I was also struck by the politics of it, especially with regard to Native American activism. Once in my life, I was invited to read in NCY, and did so at The Ear Inn. I was absolutely thrilled when Hannah introduced herself to me. When I was teaching her work, at some point the intensity and vulnerability of her word-vision experience hit me, and continues to hit me.... In many ways, she has helped me to see words in ways I had not known before. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:02:22 -0400 Reply-To: potepoet@home.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: Potes & Poets Press Inc Subject: Hannah Weiner publications----- MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one of hannah weiner's last publications was her issue of A.BACUS #107, which consists of pages 69-87 of a new text of hers' entitled SONORA. the usual price for A.BACUS is $4, postpaid. for the next month or so, send $3, cash, and i will snailmail a copy on the new 25% cotton, acid-free paper to be used for future A.BACUS issues. a few issues of her 1981 chapbook, nijole's house, are available at $10 each. send $3 to: Peter Ganick Potes & Poets Press Inc 181 Edgemont Avenue Elmwood CT 06110-1005 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Writing exercises In-Reply-To: <341ABDBA.28B4@nut-n-but.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >James Finnegan Asked, "What great poems have been produced from writing >exercises?" I don't know about great, but one of my favorite poems, >Keats's *On the Grasshopper and Cricket*, was the result of an exercise. >I'm hazy on the details, but some kind of sonnet-writing contest was >suggested at a gathering of poets, and Keats batted out the preceding in >competition with Leigh Hunt (I think). Shelley might have participated, >too, I'm not sure. > >There's also the example of the obviously exercise poems that begin >Shakespeare's sonnet sequence. > >In any event, I'm definitely with Charles Alexander about the value of >procedure poems/exercise poems/what-if-I-do-this poems. Even if nothing >comes from working on such poems in a workshop, the experience of >what-iffing has to be valuable. > > --Bob G In fourth grade we were supposed to write five sentences a week, each one containing one spelling word, so that we would have used 25% of the words given each week. Bored (and I'm sure quite obnoxious about it) I would instead write a twenty-line rhymed and metered poem with a spelling word in every line. The poems were absolutely awful, even for a fourth grader, but the experience of struggling with the language under those tight constraints absolutely invaluable. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:52:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: writing ex. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I do teach writing, to 4th graders and mental health clients and high >school students and working adults. Excersizes help people relax, >especially when they don't already have a writing practice. the most >talented students I have often saythey never write on their own, because >they don't know how to get themselves started. When they have a list of >open-ended options, they often do start, at least a little. My point as a >teacher is entirely to get people writing, anything; once they have this >habit, the journey takes them. I use Natalie GOldberg, John Gardener's The >Art of Fiction, the new Practice of Poetry edited by Twitchell and Behn, >stuff I make up, stuff kids suggest. (One popular one: "I'm hungry >for....") > Whatever helps, helps. > >Celia White cmwhite@acsu.buffalo.edu SILS Box 35 >"One cuts oneself far more often with a dull knife than with a sharp one." Seems to be two kinds of exercises in this thread: nuts-and-bolts focus on language, and the above. They are so different from each other I can't even think of them in the same breath. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 15:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: ILS 7: Ellingham/Killian on Spicer Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lewis Ellingham and Kevin Killian's riveting account of "Five Years in the Life of Jack Spicer" was published as the seventh installment of the Impercipient Lecture Series earlier this month. A preview of the biography forthcoming next year from Wesleyan, this chapter documents with lush and knowing detail the years 1950-1955. Picking up with his brief stint in Minneapolis, and depositing him in Boston isolation, this period also includes a stretch in the more familiar environs of the Bay area, where Spicer "was living a full, almost schizophrenic life--teaching at C[alifornia] S[chool] of F[ine] A[rt], sitting the Gallery, drinking at The Place, participating in the 'Old Ladies' Bridge Club' in Berkeley on Fridays, keeping in touch with his mother in Los Angeles, attending Mattachine meetings (now in San Francisco), and trying to continue his long-term project, the _Imaginary Elegies_" (26). That's the good news. The bad news is that only two or three copies remain from the initial run of 150, so chances are you'll have to borrow (or xerox) one from a friend. However, if you'd like to be kept in mind in the event of a small reprint, let us know. Thanks to the generosity of Loss Glazier and Diane Ward, you can now keep up with the ILS on the EPC by visiting http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/presses/impercipient_lecture.html. And look soon for ILS 4 (the Perelman panel) on John Tranter's stylish web mag _Jacket_ at http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/ Subcriptions to the ILS are US$25 for ten issues (no additional charge for overseas subcribers); US$40 for institutions. Single copies go for US$5 when available. Please make checks out to one of the editors, NOT the magazine. Back-issue currently available: 1.5 'Imperturbable Things': On Still-Life Poetics by Beth Anderson (last 2 copies) 1.4 Responses to Bob Perelman's _The Marginalization of Poetry_ by Silliman, Lauterbach, Spahr, and Evans; with counter-response by Perelman 1.1 The Dynamics of Literary Change by Steve Evans (rpt) Back issues currently out of print are: 1.6 No Saints in Three Acts: On Steven Jonas by Aldon L. Nielsen 1.3 The Ground Is the Only Figure by Rosmarie Waldrop 1.2 Radical Dogberry and Society Sketches: Two Essays by Chris Stroffolino Steve Evans & Jennifer Moxley 61 E. Manning Street Providence RI 02906-4008 r i a t n m u a t s u o o o s ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 11:27:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Bernadette Mayer Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What with all the very sad news of Hannah Weiner's death, I thought it might also be good to have some positive news. In todays NEW YORK TIMES BOOK REVIEW, Bernadette Mayer has a poem on the end sheet, titled "A Very Short Anthology of New Verse." Her poem, "Eleventh Cup," (published originally in TORQUE) was reprinted by the TIMES from my anthology, THE GERTRUDE STEIN AWARDS INNOVATIVE AMERICAN POETRY 1994-1995. I'm currently working on the 1995-1996 edition. Douglas Messerli Sun & Moon Press ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 12:33:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: Unprosing Exercise Comments: To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Grumman wrote: > A technique to unprose an image is one whose purpose is to lift the > image out of its prosaism, to invest it with a more-than-common sensual > richness. You have an image in front of you now. It's not daffodils, nor is it wheelbarrows. It does have commonness, and its sensual richness is masked by your efforts to construe the semantics of these signs you are now reading. I asked my students on Friday to write an exercise, of the kind Finnegan would likely detest. Take the poem everyone knows; rewrite it on a medium your writing now depends upon. My effort follows below. I'll submit your better efforts to my students. Unprose this image before you. ________________________________________ The Pixelled Screen so much opens up on windows nine- ty five showing bright icons clicked at by a mouse. Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 13:38:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Question about Hannah Weiner Somewhere among the many moving descriptions of Hannah Weiner I recall a brief suggestion that she was somewhat self-protective about 'information exposure'. I wonder if anyone can tell me what her own reading habits were like - spare, selective, avaricious, serendipitous...? What were some of her favorites? post or bkchn - red. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 14:46:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Unprosing Exercise ---------- From: red slider[SMTP:TheFarm@ns.net] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 1997 2:37 PM To: 'griffinbaker@BC.SYMPATICO.CA' Subject: RE: Unprosing Exercise ---------- From: Mark Baker[SMTP:griffinbaker@BC.SYMPATICO.CA] Sent: Sunday, September 14, 1997 12:33 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Unprosing Exercise Bob Grumman wrote: > A technique to unprose an image is one whose purpose is to lift the > image out of its prosaism, to invest it with a more-than-common sensual > richness. You have an image in front of you now. It's not daffodils, nor is it wheelbarrows. It does have commonness, and its sensual richness is masked by your efforts to construe the semantics of these signs you are now reading. I asked my students on Friday to write an exercise, of the kind Finnegan would likely detest. Take the poem everyone knows; rewrite it on a medium your writing now depends upon. My effort follows below. I'll submit your better efforts to my students. Unprose this image before you. ________________________________________ The Pixelled Screen so much opens up on windows nine- ty five showing bright icons clicked at by a mouse. Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 18:16:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: A Song of Despair Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Good idea. I am currently having problems with the 'paucity' of words in Americenglish having to do with certain feelings and relationships: "parenting", in particular, at the moment. suggestions welcome. tom bell At 10:54 AM 9/14/97 +0700, Rebecca Weldon wrote: >I characterize this century as the one of "form will set you free". Form, >no form, different form, form exercises, form-is-content, content-is-form, >form as language, language as form, form-of-thought, no-thought-form, a sea >of forms eroding continents of form bequeathed. > >The rats eat my notebooks of form and I am glad they are nourished. There >was a time when all I had was form and Neruda and myself. I exercised an >exploration of the place Neruda showed me. Twenty exercises and a poem, >Twenty love poems and La Cancion Desesperada. > >Play is creative, liberating and prepares us for what we live when play is >done. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:16:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 08:35:40 +0100 from Did somebody say deliberation & inspiration were mutually exclusive? I said poetry & writing are often mutually exclusive. Finnegan's skepticism won't ever be too popular, not among a crowd whose bread & butter is turning poetry into various classroom techniques. How many people have written to the list now to tell us how exciting it is to experiment, how productive? Fine. Hey, poetry is the thing. Anybody against poetry here? We agree on a lot of things. Finnegan's position, which I am defending, is a reminder that poetry is not only universal, everywhere, democratic, untapped, available, un-elitist, beautiful, unplanned, etc. - it is also, as the greatest poets will tell you - elusive, unexplainable, profound, high, great, deep, overwhelming, shattering, work of a lifetime, work of genius, unique, rare, precious, inimitable. GET IT???? A GIFT. Pleasure in writing, happiness in writing are one thing. Poetry, on the other hand, ... well, it's like Life, or Love. Don't bowdlerize & industrialize it. Don't idolatrize it. Respect it for what it is - something unknown. the idol of America is PRODUCTION. But poetry, among all the other things mentioned, is also the benchmark. The UNATTAINABLE. Listen... - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:49:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Hannah Wiener's Last Book In-Reply-To: <199709130403.AAA04651@mail1.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Roof Books published Hannah's last book: _We Speak Silent_ in 1996. Hannah had been ill off and on for a few years, but no one expected her death. She came to a reading of mine as recently as May 1997 and was vigorous if distracted. She was a wonder and a trial to me for 20 years. I will miss her very much. If any of you are interested in _We Speak Silent_ please let me know. James Sherry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:58:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Sherry Subject: Hannah Weiner's Last Book In-Reply-To: <199709140404.AAA28944@mail2.panix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I published Hannah Weiner's last book in 1996. If anyone is interested in it, please contact me here. Hannah was a wonder and a trial. I will miss her, all of it. Although she had been ill on and off for years, I don't think anyone expected her death. She attended a reading of mine as recently as May of this year. She was vigorous if distracted and tore up paper while I read. James Sherry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:49:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 14 Sep 1997 22:16:21 EDT from In the Italian film "The Postman", hashed over here several months ago, one (Neruda) lives for poetry, another (the postman) literally dies for poetry. Poetry is Olson's father. Poetry is the overturning of the present by the future, the stumbling fox after the turtle (dove). Diana, Teresa, pure poetry of the next millenium, floating into the end of the LAST century. Poetry more than anything is a black stone on a white stone. Communism - the poetry of injustice. Christianity - the poetry of Judaism. Judaism - the poetry of justice. Justice - the poetry of reality. Reality - the poetry of communism. Soviet ideology - technique. - a Sunday meditation by Eric Blarnes, class traitor, Cambridge, U.K. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Sep 1997 20:24:07 +0000 Reply-To: chax@theriver.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Hannah Wiener's Last Book In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > If any of you are interested in _We Speak Silent_ please let me know. > > James Sherry Yes, please James. Thank you. Charles Alexander Chax Press 101 W. Sixth St. no. 6 Tucson, AZ 85701-1000 charles alexander poet and book artist chax@theriver.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 01:38:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: NEW Davidson, Debord, Fraser, Ginsberg, Levy &&& @ Bridge Street lots new. thanks again, poetics, for yr support. orderinfg info. poetics discount at end of list. 1. _Friendship_, Maurice Blanchot, Stanford, $17.95. 29 essays on art, politics, literature covering such as Klossowski, Duras, Leiris, Gorz, Kafka, Paulham, Camus, Jabes, Levinas, Buber, Malraux, Benjamin, & Bataille. 2. _Revolution of the Mind: The Life of Andre Breton_, Da Capo, $20.95. "I am Surrealism!" 3. _Rebecca Letters_, Laynie Browne, Kelsey St., $10. "Laynie Browne's alchemically applied linguistics unfold the space between poem and prose, revealing a crepuscular zone "where it's warm enough to stop on the street." --Lee Ann Brown. ". . . or intention dwelling there along a shore. (parentheses are crescents.)" 4. _Conjunctions 28: Secular Psalms_, ed Bradford Morrow, Bard College, $12. Maureen Howard, Cortazar, Osman, D Foster Wallace, Joanna Scott, Berssenbrugge, Mike McCormack, Gevirtz, Sorrentino, Willis, Tarn, Hollo, Can Xue, Eugenides, Stephen Dixon, Guest, Oates, Mac Low, Paul West, Toby Olson, Kelly, Caponegro + Music Theater portfolio edited by Thalia Field including Harry Partch, Robert Ashley, Meredith Monk &&&. 5. _Ghostlier Demarcations: Modern Poetry and the Material Word_, Michael Davidson, U. Cal., $35 hc. Michael Davidson argues that the modernist ideology of the work of art as autonomous object has dominated our idea of literary materiality and hindered our ability to to read poetry as a socially critical medium. "The relation of material word to material world in all its ideological complexties is Davidson's subject. The book thus has a double value: it provides us with a host of genuinely new readings-- of Gertrude Stein and Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen and Susan Howe, Muriel Rukeyser and Laurie Anderson-- but it also provides us with theoretical and cultural tools whereby recent verbal experiments-- whether graphemic, morphemic, or genetic-- may be understood. A terrific accomplishment!" --Marjorie Perloff. 6. _Guy Debord -- Revolutionary: A Critical Biography_, Len Bracken, Feral House, $14.95. A book much better than most. "Who has made, in so few images, a more beautiful poem of solitude?" --G.D. 7. _Politics of Friendship_, Jacques Derrida, Verso, $20. The 'political turn' many noted in Derrida's _Spectres of Marx_ continues here in an exploration of the political history of Aristotle's exclamation 'O my friends, there is no friend.' 8. _il cuore : the heart : selected poems 1970--1995_, Kathleen Fraser, Wesleyan, $16.95. 200 page selection plus new & uncollected work w/ introduction by Peter Quartermain. "dependent on scale, your under- / estimation of how it could / eat at you, that movement / (left behind itself)" 9. _Luminous Dreams_, Allen Ginsberg, Zasterle, $10. A little book of dreams including the remarkable "History of the Jewish Socialist Party in America." 10. _Some of the Dharma_, Jack Kerouac, Viking, $32.50. Beautifully typeset large format hardcover of Kerouac's buddhist journals/poems/proses. The typesetting puts one in mind of The Maximus Poems or the recent U Cal Mallarme-- ok, not quite that good-- but shockingly good for a major trade publication. & Kerouac, y'know, he's a pretty good writer. 11. _Continuous Discontinuous_, Andrew Levy, Potes & Poets, $13.50. "The four forceful, lovely works collected here, though very different from each other, all represent profound and yet quickly changing encounters with sense and sensation. All are swiftly impressionistic and rigorously thoughtful." --Lyn Hejinian. "it seems crazy in an intoxicating way" 12. _Becoming Modern: The Life of Mina Loy_, Carolyn Burke, U Cal., $18.95. New in pb. 13. _Mass Ave._, third issue, ed. Dan Bouchard, $5. Michael Angelo Tata, Andrew Levy, Sherry Brennan, Kyle Conner, Jennifer Moxley, Fred Muratori, Kary Wayson, Robert Fitterman, Ethel Rackin, Kim Bernstein, & Juliana Spahr. 14. _School of Fish_, Eileen Myles, Black Sparrow, $14. "What happens when you/ contain the flame?" 15. _The Collected Poems of Charles Olson_, ed. George Butterick, U Cal, $38. New in pb. 16. _Light Street_, Nick Piombino, Zasterle, $7. "The rules are straightforward." 17. _Rhizome 1_, ed. Evan Calbi and Standard Schaefer, $10. Lombardelli, Baraka, Slocum, Wellman, Browne, Gregg, Strang, Selby, Barone, DiPalma, Vangelisti, D. Phillips, M. Gizzi, Bernstein, Messerli, Swensen, Ronk, Ratcliffe, Mittenthal, G. Bennett, Smith Nash, Albon, Crosson, Alferi, Scalapino, Spahr, J. Bennett, Bellen, + Reviews. 18. _Letters_, Lisa Samuels, Meow, $5. ". . . the thread of spinning it only I changed. . ." 19. _Unbound: A Book of AIDS_, Aaron Shurin, Sun & Moon, $19.95. "Listen uncerimoniously to some of the music that has _meant_ me-- " 20. _Open Sky_, Paul Virilio, Verso, $16. 'One day the day will come when the day will not come.' & a few of poetics kinda bestsellas currently in stock: _The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book_ ed. Bruce Andrews & Charles Bernstein, Southern Illonois, $18.95. _The Mooring of Starting Out: The First Five Books of Poetry_, John Ashbery, Ecco, $25. _On the Level Everyday: Selected Takes on Poetry and the Art of Living_, Ted Berrigan, Talisman, $12.95. _The Psychic Life of Power_, Judith Butler, Stanford, $15.95. _The Politics of Truth_, Michel Foucault, Autonomedia, $8. _Hambone 13_, ed Nathaniel Mackey, $10. _Some Other Kind of Mission_, Lisa Jarnot, $11. _Forms of Expansion: Recent Long Poems by Women_, Lynne Keller, U. Chicago, $16.95. _The Lost Lunar Baedeker_, Mina Loy, FSG, $13. _Imagination Verses_, Jennifer Moxley, $8.95. _Cells of Release_, Fiona Templeton, Roof, $13.95. _Another Language: Selected Poems_, Rosmarie Waldrop, Talisman, $10.50. _Frame (1971-1991)_, Barrett Watten, $13.95. Poetics folks receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order. 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, & card # & we will send a receipt with the books. We must charge some shipping for orders out of the US. Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Wahsington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 04:50:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Thank you, Douglas Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For that wonderful story of Hannah's Ron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:51:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: NEW Davidson, Debord, Fraser, Ginsberg, Levy &&& @ Bridge Street In-Reply-To: <970915013804_403962834@emout14.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:38 AM -0400 9/15/97, AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM wrote: ... >5. _Ghostlier Demarcations: Modern Poetry and the Material Word_, Michael >Davidson, U. Cal., $35 hc. Michael Davidson argues that the modernist >ideology of the work of art as autonomous object has dominated our idea of >literary materiality and hindered our ability to to read poetry as a socially >critical medium. well, yeah! this is hardly a novel argument, tho it is refreshing to see it here on poetix and to see the range of writers (usually bracketed off as "difficult" i.e. not "socially engaged" or "relevant") Michael D takes on. md ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:47:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: tandy sturgeon anyone know the whereabout (addresses etc.) of tandy sturgeon? i need to get in touch with her asap. thanks, burt kimmelman kimmelman@admin.njit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 08:23:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Re: Thank you, Douglas Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ron, Thank you for the response, and for your posting on Hannah. Douglas rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM wrote: > > For that wonderful story of Hannah's > > Ron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:32:36 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Writing experiments Content-Type: text/plain Warning:2 writing experitments to follow! Thanks to all that posted suggestions for writing experiments-- as promised I will share a couple of mine-- and respond to the thread of "to what greatness" (my paraphrase) so writing excercise contribute. I teach a workshop at a cultural center (alas, no big dough here so there goes the theory about creative writing = money for something you sell)-- I do hope that I allow in my class is some time and space to practice writing. I work another job to support myself as a writer-- often my writing class is a useful space for me to create poems, sometimes it is the only place I can actually write. Great ones? I sometimes find my writing great, sometimes its stays where it should, hidden, and sometimes it yields a line or thought or memory which becomes something else later (GREAT!). This I wrote from an in-class exercise-- pretty ordinary exercise really-- we made collages from magazines with images and text-- then we traded them and wrote using them as a kind of trigger: Stupid, Meatloaf Stare at a toy plane 10:10 PM and the Wizard behind the screen is a rented man my heart (organ) burns, it does like the 9 of spades found in an empty parking lot apart -- when did one find the stark differences of crotches? -- the rented man of my heart & if I hate my job or hurt hand the wizard will get me a new heart, Tin Man, maybe dirt cheap maybe a toy plane to stare at in high beams in the rain Nothing up my sleeve but the 9 of spades and my heart (organ) burns finding the stark difference in the Tin Man and the dirt cheap boom boom sound of 10:10 before someone comes home I like this poem-- and it goes with what Finnegan had said about the need to read -- well that is obvious-- and of course the need for writing practice. This ended up as a sonnet -- a form I have used quite a bit-- and a form that I have read in Ted Berrigan and Bernadette Meyers' works. Ok here is another more complicated approach adapted from Harryette Mullen from OULIPO: Take a word, preferably (for ease) with five or less letters, and not too many repeating letters, for example, star. Then generate a lexicon of words that are somewhat and not at all associative to the word, _without_ using the letters that make up that word. (the letters s, t, a, or r in our example so: dim, model, cool, flip, dumb.. and so on) You should collect about 15 words. Now throw away the "letter" constraint and write using the words in the list. A twist I used in this class was to compose the work as a "letter", as in-- Dear Star:..etc. Here are two I wrote like these. (I wrote a few like these!) Dear Death A simple quibble — what is it that you prize? Pride? Your winsome vibe aside — we sniff hard at the ruse of the mondo-young. Whip the moon to a nub and we would have you new. Human remains ruined and I am, wishing for a rune-tattoo to follow. Dear Talk Why mop nonsense into a bomb bigger than speech? You are all, Talk, a dizzy no-no, a misunderstood gift like gin. Why do you croon to me like sunshine, and why does red sift sky like an engine of words, as an engine for fighting wonder. I will be gossip for you to surpass. *** Special thanks to Lisa Jarnot for generously sharing teaching information... sincerely, Hoa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:32:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hnry gould Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:32:36 PDT from thanks Hoa, for interesting poems & message - obviously I am on losing side of this argument, Finnegan has waked out of it, he knows better, I'll hang myself by my own e-thread now, play devil's avocado - BUT say this I still do : IF I WAS A CREATIVE WRITING TEACHER-MOGUL-MILLIONAIRE o.k. everybody here are the xeroxes of Paradise lost the original please pass around these brown macintoshes & peel until you underestimate your own fur go through Scissors Gate & paste some new words until you make babble sing on top of a towering scribble hey some new poetry roadside drive-in starts to collide & then it begins to work! Everybody can learn to cook even this jerk lost his writer's block & if the glue sticks try these licks again & again - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 12:46:04 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: POETICS: reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a copy of the notice sent out locally...posted here more for the simple sharing of it.... :) ---------------------------------------------- * * * * * * * * * Reading * * * * * * * * * This Thursday, September 18, 7:30 p.m. Copperfield's Cafe, 140 Kentucky Street Petaluma LUKE BREIT from Sacramento, author of four poetry books and LAYNE RUSSELL (yours truly) [book "Blood and Other Poems" on the way!] *************** about Luke: "These are very moving -- that is to say, perfect -- poems." -- George Oppen, poet, Pulitzer Prize winner "When have I ever failed to take pleasure in Luke Breit's poetry? He is the most reliable poet I know when it comes to making me feel good. [....] Luke is a rainmaker. Put him in a desert, get him to recite, and clouds will gather. If I could be a poet, I wouldn't mind at all being as good as Luke Breit." -- Norman Mailer, Pulitzer Prize winner You can visit Luke's web site at http://208.131.18.6:80/lukesac/ ************** http://www.sonic.net/layne "A Quiet Place" http://www.sonic.net/layne/calendar.html "Poets Leave Their Prints" -- Sonoma County Poetry Calendar ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 15:37:11 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Re: Writing experiments Content-Type: text/plain hnry gould >Subject: Re: Writing experiments >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 11:32:36 PDT from >thanks Hoa, for interesting poems & message - obviously I am on losing >side of this argument, Finnegan has waked out of it, he knows better, >I'll hang myself by my own e-thread now, play devil's avocado - > ....I honestly don't see any sides (or argument) to this. You obviously have a point to make about quaility, the "gift" of poetry, and writing experiments, but I am not sure what that is. It seems to me that it isn't so much experiments with writing in themselves that may be taken to issue, but their over reliance and/or eclipsing of the practice of reading and listening. But I think that this has been said more eloquently by others on this list, so I will stop here. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:03:44 -0400 Reply-To: potepoet@home.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: Potes & Poets Press Inc Subject: Re: Writing experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit i know this topic has been taken around the block several times, but what about the 'poems/directions' in yoko ono's 'clouds'?---these are experiments, some in writing---they are writing experiments in that she 'wrote' them and a reader/experimenter can read or fulfill them---what sort of fulfillment did ono intend in these pages?--- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 19:28:46 -0400 Reply-To: potepoet@home.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: Potes & Poets Press Inc Subject: yoko ono MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry, the name of the book is not 'clouds', rather, 'grapefruit'---- a chunky, yellow-covered, small, square-shaped book--- wonder of that has to do with the title?--- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:42:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Writing experiments Henry, Yes, I've hung back. Let others have their say: Writing exercises are freeing, occasionally yeild brilliancies. I think, mostly, it's a matter of temperament. I cringe at the idea of writing a poem that I have no vested interest in writing, no will to write on mine own accord. I say more sweat; I want to see your struggle. I don't want to see flights of fancy--I want to see the bee's wax melting down your arms, Icarus, as you test the Sun. Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:39:47 +0000 Reply-To: chax@theriver.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: charles alexander Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: <970915224045_351750274@emout04.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I say more sweat; I want to see your struggle. I don't want > to see flights of fancy--I want to see the bee's wax melting > down your arms, Icarus, as you test the Sun. James, This sure sounds like a flight of fancy to me. And doesn't "fancy" in this sense mean the imagination, anyway? Yes, I do want to see that. And I think we see it as much in the choices, structural, method, and otherwise, as we see it in diction, form, field of poem, etc. Seems there is some idea here that a poem wrought by a method or procedure can't be as sincere or close to the bone or _____________ (anything) as one which is not wrought by such method or procedure. I don't agree with that at all. Also seems like there's an idea that there is some stance which is entirely naked, sweaty, struggling, and devoid of any method or procedure -- no, I don't agree with that, either. charles charles alexander poet and book artist chax@theriver.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Sep 1997 23:00:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: Writing experiments we're looking for a Turing test for poemspeak? Would certainly have to detect the presence of endorphins which could easily be faked by exercises making 60% of your grade depend on the soul tion set. Sweat is sweart? red > I say more sweat; I want to see your struggle. I don't want > to see flights of fancy--I want to see the bee's wax melting > down your arms, Icarus, as you test the Sun. James, This sure sounds like a flight of fancy to me. And doesn't "fancy" in this sense mean the imagination, anyway? Yes, I do want to see that. And I think we see it as much in the choices, structural, method, and otherwise, as we see it in diction, form, field of poem, etc. Seems there is some idea here that a poem wrought by a method or procedure can't be as sincere or close to the bone or _____________ (anything) as one which is not wrought by such method or procedure. I don't agree with that at all. Also seems like there's an idea that there is some stance which is entirely naked, sweaty, struggling, and devoid of any method or procedure -- no, I don't agree with that, either. charles charles alexander poet and book artist chax@theriver.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:15:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: JackLeg #3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just wanted to make a plug for the magazine I co-edit, JackLeg. ISSUE #3, FALL 1997 Featured writers include: Ray Gonzalez Alison Deming James McManus Luis Rodriguez Mark Turcotte Denise Duhamel Calvin Forbes Maureen Seaton Reginald Gibbons Barry Silesky Mary Hawley Jon Anderson Gale Walden Daniel Tobin Simone Muench Becky Byrkit Charles Alexander Gregg Wagner Lisa Cooper Bill Marsh and Thomas Chandler Please join us for Issue #3's DEBUT READING at: The Guild Complex at the Chopin Theater 1543 W. Division Street, (corner of Ashland, Milwaukee, and Division) in CHICAGO OCTOBER 21, 1997 AT 7:30 P.M. JackLeg is a community based literary magazine, primarily featuring writers from Chicago and Tucson (now that I've moved to San Francisco, we'll start adding Bay Area writers to the mix for issue #4). As with our previous two issues, JackLeg is held together with nuts and bolts, so that when one is through reading it one can do minor home repairs or put somebody's eye out (you can even add your own poems, or remove the ones you don't like, and hardly anyone will know). A Jackleg is someone who talks too much about something she or he knows nothing about. To order a copy, please e:mail Jennifer Harris at jharris@artic.edu Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 00:10:38 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: JackLeg #3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit JackLeg is a community based literary magazine, primarily featuring writers from Chicago and Tucson (now that I've moved to San Francisco, we'll start adding Bay Area writers to the mix for issue #4). Hugh, this is great news! welcome to the SF area! how often does Jackleg come out? Layne (in north bay area) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 01:24:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: reading in seattle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Any Listopolitans in the Seattle area? I'll be reading for SubText at the Speakeasy Thursday evening, September 18, and giving workshops Fri eve and Sat p.m. On Thursday, I'll be reading with Robin Blaser. The Speakeasy is at 2304 2nd Avenue in the Belltown district, just north of downtown. My contact person there is R. Bryant Mason, who may be reached at subtext@speakeasy.org , or at 206-322-1657. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:33:04 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit REGARDING LAWRENCE UPTON'S EMAIL ADDRESS Please note that I have changed my email address. I did notify as many people as possible, and I am sorry to repeat it but it seems that not everyone got it. I abandoned Compuserve because of my dissatisfaction with their service but they refuse to accept my cancellation saying they dont understand what I am saying, presumably to demand more money. Email has been accepted by the system but I am not reading it. This is my new email. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:58:34 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miles Champion Subject: Re: writing exercises Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit While I'm reluctant to prolong this discussion, and given that David Bromige has succinctly outlined the value of writing exercises in his posting a couple of days ago, there are still a couple of things I'd like to add. First, to gesture broadly toward the long and illustrious history of writing which owes its existence to procedure(s) and/or methods of constraint (Homer was no stranger to the lipogram, after all), and, second, to mention the works of one writer who, this century at least, demonstrates beyond doubt the validity of such methods: Georges Perec. Any discussion of Perec has to involve a wider consideration of the benefits (the "freeing-up") of writing exercises, for Perec felt that his own story, the story he might one day tell given his great ambition to be a writer, had been taken brutally from him by the events of WWII, his childhood spent in exile and the loss of his family to the Nazis. Yes, his first works were written with no specific or systematic artifice, but it was surely the strange texture of the first novel, _Things_, with its collaged borrowings from Flaubert, that persuaded Raymond Queneau to put Perec forward for membership of the OuLiPo, and it would be difficult indeed to dismiss the works Perec then went on to write--using greater and more elaborate formal systems--as mere "exercises". It is interesting, though, that for many years the OuLiPo itself was wary of the (potential) importance of its work, and met for some years in secret, publishing little. It was Queneau's death in the late seventies which prompted Perec to start work on _Life A User's Manual_, in which a network of quotations from his beloved authors (Roussel, Kafka, Melville, Proust, Sterne, Leiris...) sits within a formal structure of highly complex design (the expanded, 10x10 chessboard, the Knight's Tour, the Graeco-Latin bisquare of order 10, &&)--extraordinary, really, that the book should stilll be such a page-turner! And the lipogrammatic novel _La Disparition_ also allows those of us with not exactly fluent French to marvel at the superb translation (_A Void_) by Gilbert Adair. And what an idea, a whodunnit written entirely without the letter e, in which the murderer turns out to be the errant vowel! The wider point here is, of course, that these and other works cannot be separated from the systems which helped to generate them--the "plot" of _La Disparition_, for example, was to an extent shaped by the reduced lexicon (e being by far the most common letter in the language) that Perec had available. Perec inscribed his biography into these processual works in complex and fascinating ways, and the results were not only deeply moving but sometimes shocking (_W or The Memory of Childhood_). There has already been discussion on this list of the flexibility of self-imposed rules--that one can depart or diverge from them once they have provided something interesting, and that such departures do not necessarily undermine the overall system (for Perec this would be Epicurus's "clinamen", the anti-constraint that operates within the structure [or Paul Klee's "genius is the error in the system"]), and this flexibility is a nice counterpoint to the practice of setting up a system and following it pedantically to its conclusion (Happy Birthday, Jackson!). As Charles Bernstein pointed out some time ago now in "Thought's Measure", the writer who sits, pen in hand, alone with her thoughts, invariably produces writing which is far from unique. To admit begrudgingly to the use of "exercises" in the classroom but to remain scornful of their uses elsewhere is to demonstrate remarkably little understanding of how many writers actually construct their work. --Miles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:41:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 15 Sep 1997 22:42:33 -0400 from I agree with you. I also think the interesting writing comes out of either long gestation - or intense experience. It seems patronizing to me to reduce it to a game. Or only a game, though it's that too I guess. Encourage people to draw on their experience, their reading, & their social consciousness - give them "themes" rather than scissors & paste (or along with the scissors & paste...) - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:54:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:58:34 +0000 from On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:58:34 +0000 Miles Champion said: > >As Charles Bernstein pointed out some time ago now in "Thought's Measure", >the writer who sits, pen in hand, alone with her thoughts, invariably >produces writing which is far from unique. To admit begrudgingly to the use >of "exercises" in the classroom but to remain scornful of their uses >elsewhere is to demonstrate remarkably little understanding of how many >writers >actually construct their work. O.k. Miles the Champion, you've brought in Perec & Borges & all that & clearly checkmated the counter-argument. Yes, "exercises" can bring a breath of fresh air & liberation & play into the writing process as well as point in the direction of serious craft. On the other hand, to be "scornful" of the writer who sits pen in hand etc. is just as reductive. I still say technique for its own sake has become a contemporary shibboleth, especially in the "experimental" community; & IF I WERE THE IDEAL WRITING TEACHER I would want to listen carefully to the students & find out what they'd read, would put on some tapes of poets new & traditional (Beowulf is still available in live performance), would encourage an exploration of history & social consciousness in writing, before introducing facile techniques. Because you never know, there might actually be a few writers in your class. - Henry Gould "Ars est celare artem" [Art is to hide art] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:28:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: <199709160900.KAA04021@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:58 AM +0000 9/16/97, Miles Champion wrote: >While I'm reluctant to prolong this discussion, and given that David Bromige >has succinctly outlined the value of writing exercises in his posting a >couple of days ago, there are still a couple of things I'd like to add. >First, to gesture broadly toward the long and illustrious history of writing >which owes its existence to procedure(s) and/or methods of constraint (Homer >was no stranger to the lipogram, after all), and, second, to mention the >works of one writer who, this century at least, demonstrates beyond doubt >the validity of such methods: Georges Perec. Any discussion of Perec has to >involve a wider consideration of the benefits (the "freeing-up") of writing >exercises, for Perec felt that his own story, the story he might one day >tell given his great ambition to be a writer, had been taken brutally from >him by the events of WWII, his childhood spent in exile and the loss of >his family to the Nazis. Yes, his first works were written with no specific >or systematic artifice, but it was surely the strange texture of the first >novel, _Things_, with its collaged borrowings from Flaubert, that persuaded >Raymond Queneau to put Perec forward for membership of the OuLiPo, and it >would be difficult indeed to dismiss the works Perec then went on to >write--using greater and more elaborate formal systems--as mere "exercises". > It is interesting, though, that for many years the OuLiPo itself was wary >of the (potential) importance of its work, and met for some years in secret, >publishing little. It was Queneau's death in the late seventies which >prompted Perec to start work on _Life A User's Manual_, in which a network >of quotations from his beloved authors (Roussel, Kafka, Melville, Proust, >Sterne, Leiris...) sits within a formal structure of highly complex design >(the expanded, 10x10 chessboard, the Knight's Tour, the Graeco-Latin >bisquare of order 10, &&)--extraordinary, really, that the book should >stilll be such a page-turner! And the lipogrammatic novel _La Disparition_ >also allows those of us with not exactly fluent French to marvel at the >superb translation (_A Void_) by Gilbert Adair. And what an idea, a >whodunnit written entirely without the letter e, in which the murderer turns >out to be the errant vowel! The wider point here is, of course, that these >and other works cannot be separated from the systems which helped to >generate them--the "plot" of _La Disparition_, for example, was to an extent >shaped by the reduced lexicon (e being by far the most common letter in the >language) that Perec had available. Perec inscribed his biography into >these processual works in complex and fascinating ways, and the results were >not only deeply moving but sometimes shocking (_W or The Memory of >Childhood_). > thanks miles for this informative post; as someone attracted to both "language"-centered writing and also the exigencies of traumatic biographical "reality," i find this kind of insight invaluable. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 07:36:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: xcp conference schedule Comments: To: layne@sonic.net In-Reply-To: <341DCE7E.8FD@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi groovoids, here's a tentative xcp conference schedule. if yr on the schedule and see something you can't handle, now'ss the time to say so. Draft of Schedule for Cross-Cultural Poetics Conference THURSDAY OCTOBER 16: 12:30-12:45: Introductory Remarks 1:00-2:10, PANELS: 1. The Poetics of Trauma Chair Karyn Ball, Critical Studies in Discourse and Society, University of Minnesota, "The Entropics of Memory: Diaspora Poetics in Theresa Hak-Kyung Cha's Dict=E9e U Sam Oeur, "Sacred Vow: Poems from the Cambodian Killing Fields" Kitty Millet, California State University-Long Beach, "Testimonio, Performance, and Survivor Narration: A Revolution in Form" 2. Resistance, Hybridity and the "Post-": the Politics of Cross-Cultural Poetics Sonita Sarker, Womens' Studies, Macalester College, Chair (to be invited) Michael Strysick, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, "Borders and the Between: A Poetics of Community" Asha Sen, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, "Feminist Subversions: A Critical Look at the Role of Taiwafs in India" Caroline Picart, University of Wisconsin-Eau Claire, "The Poiesis of Mestiza= je" 3. Popular Music Csaba Toth, History Department, Carlow College, "Noise Poetics on Screen: Mediatized Performance and the Micropolitics of Sounding-off Postindustrial Space" Monika Mehta, Comparative Literature, University of Minnesota, "Songs and Sexuality in Popular Hindi Cinema" (read by Jigna Desai) 2:20-3:30, PANELS: 1. Telepoetics I Catherine Liu, Department of French and Italian, University of Minnesota, Ch= air John Mowitt, Critical Studies in Discourse and Society, University of Minnesota, "Nonwestern Electric" Peter Krapp *unconfirmedNicholas Royle 2. Ethnopoetics: Critique, Description, Practice Kim Koch, Book House on Grand, Chair Rachel Martin, Department of History, University of Minnesota, "The Hippie Invasion: An Amicus Brief in the Case Against Mr. Gary Snyder and Others" Nicholas Yasinski, Literature Department, Rutgers Universty, "Happenings in the '90s: Popular Contexts for Poetry" 3. "The Shadows of Untouchability": Some Indian Poetics Robin Lukes, College of St. Catherine-Minneapolis, Chair Veena Deo, English Department, Hamline University, "Dalit Women's Writing" Shripad Deo, Department of Sociology, Colorado State University, "Inchoate Revolution and the Shadows of Untouchability: Antinomies of the Dalit Revolution" Amitava Kumar, English Department, University of Florida, "Poetry's Provocation" 3:45-5:00, READINGS 1. Reg E. Gaines Marisela Norte Hilton Obenzinger Introduction by 5:15-7:00 Dinner Break 5:15, buses leave from Nolte Center for the Walker Art Center area. 7:00-8:30, KEYNOTE TALK-POEM at the Walker Art Center David Antin Introduction by Karen Moss, Walker Art Center 8:45-closing Performance Cabaret/Dessert Coffee Wine Bar, Walker Gallery 8 Caf=E9: Hosts, Brenda Bell Brown and =46RIDAY OCTOBER 17: 8:30-9:45 A.M., PANELS: 1. Black Chant Aldon Nielsen, English Department, Loyola-Marymount University, Chair Julie Anne Schmid, English Department, University of Iowa, "Speaking as the Other: Patrcia Smith's Close to Death and an Ethics of Performance" Kathleen Crown, English Department, Rutgers University,"'Cross/Country Nonstop Flight': Migratory Ecstasies in Ed Roberson's Voices Cast Out to Talk Us In" Richard Quinn, English Department, University of Iowa, "Riffing on the 'Sexual Cut': Musical Possession and Virtuosity in Nathaniel Mackey's Bedouin Hornbook and Archie Shepp's 'The Girl from Ipanema'" 2. Literary Ethnographies Dennis Tedlock, English Department, SUNY-Buffalo, Chair Hank Lazer, English Department, University of Alabama, "Education, Equality, and Ethnography in Ron Silliman's The Alphabet" Yunte Huang, English and Anthropology, SUNY-Buffalo, "Charlie Chan vs. Ezra Pound: Modern Conceptions of the Chinese Language" Eleni Stecopoulos, English Department, SUNY-Buffalo, "Ethnography, Glossographia, and the Macaronic: The Translations of Artaud" 3: "Anthropological Poetics" Diane Glancy, English and Native American Studies, Macalester College, Chair Shazia Rahman, Department of English, University of Alberta, "Incohering Identities: Kirin Narayan's Love, Starts and All That" Michael Heller, NYU, "Precision and Uncertainty: Towards an Anthropological Poetics" Kenneth Serwood, English Department, SUNY-Buffalo, "Ethnopoetics Redux: Airing the Languages of Contemporary Cross-Cultural Poetry" 10:00- 11:30, ROUNDTABLE: Roundtable 1: Poeisis, Ethnicity, Ethics: Reconfiguring the Balance: or, "Ethnopoetics: What's the Use?" Maria Damon, English Department, University of Minnesota, Moderator Juliana Chang, Heinz Insu Fenkl, Maurice Kenny, Wendy Rose, Armand Schwerner, Barbara Tedlock, Dennis Tedlock 11:30-1:00: Lunch Break 1:00-2:10, PANELS: 1. Now Museum/Now You Don't: Institutionalizing Wildness Chair: William Anthes, American Studies, U of MN Brian Keith Axel, Department of Anthropology, University of Chicago, "The Scattered Members of the Poet: Questioning the Production of Diaspora as an Object of Study" Diane Olson, English Department, SUNY-Buffalo, "de-institutionalized docility: an autoethnographic 'walk' through an ethnographcally 'wild' museum" David Michalski, School for the Visual Arts, "Collage Sociology: The World Trade Center Social Research Experiment" 2. Telepoetics II Chair, Peter Krapp Laurence Rickels, University of California-Santa Barbara Catherine Liu, Department of French and Italian, University of Minnesota Christopher Bracken, English Department, University of Alberta, "Mana, Magic, Man" 3. READING Susan Wheeler, cris cheek, Brian West and Erik Belgum Introductions by Yunte Huang, SUNY-Buffalo 2:20-3:30, PANELS 1. Poetics Out of Bounds Julia Van Cleve, Comparative Literature, University of Minnesota, Chair Diedre Sklar, Department of Anthropology, UC-Davis, "Walking with the Virgins in the Procession of the Grandmothers" Ed Cohen, Literature Department, Rutgers University, "Poesis, Autopoesis, Autopoethics" Ira Livingston, Englih Department, SUNY-Stonybrook, "The Politics of Disavowal: Poetics and Science" 2. Harlem Renaissance/Nathaniel Mackey John Wright, African and Afro-American Studies, University of Minnesota, Cha= ir Julie Suk, Cambridge University, "Poetry of Flesh: Double Consciousness in the Harlem Renaissance and Negritude" Katherine Lynes, Literature Department, Rutgers University, "Expectations of Authenticity: Poets and Poetry of the Harlem Renaissance as Cultured and Collected Objects" Paul Naylor, English Department, University of Memphis, "'Cries of thousands/ cut in on the music': Nathaniel Mackey's Recording of Strick: Song of the Andoumboulou 16-25" 3. READING: Eliot Katz, Liberation Recalled Chris Peditto, Heat Press Lori Tsang Introductions by Allan Kornblum, Coffee House Press 3:45-5:00, READINGS: Solomon Deressa, Walter K. Lew, Elizabeth Burns, Mark Nowak Introductions by Mark Nowak, Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics 5:00-7:00 DINNER BREAK 7:00-9:00, KEYNOTE READING AND ADDRESS at the Weisman Art Museum Diane Glancy Dennis Tedlock, "2,000 Years of Mayan Literature" Introduction by Mark Nowak, Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics 9:00-closing, Reception/Cash Bar and Readings, Campus Club: 8 by 8: Roy Miki, Jeff Derksen, Aldon Nielsen, Amitava Kumar, Anna Reckin, Edmond Chow, JL Kubicek, Eliza Murphy SATURDAY OCTOBER 18 8:30-9:45, PANELS 1. Ideology and Community Candace Lines, English Department, University of Minnesota, Chair *unconfirmed Dean Brink, Comparative Literature, University of Chicago, "Nineteenth-Century Japanese Verse and Ideology" David Kellogg, Writing Program, Duke University, "Social Identity and the Locus of Quantity: Rhetorical Appeals in Contemporary Poetry" Rod Hernandez, English Department, Stanford University, "Tropicalism: A Poetics of the Poco-Che Literary Collective and Publishing Company" 2. Other Languages ????????Yunte Huang, SUNY-Buffalo, Chair Dan Taulaitu McMullin, "Education as Elision: Polynesian Oral Traditions and Their Erasure..." Laura Yim, Brandeis University, "Pregnant with *kaona*": Functions of *Mele* and *Oli* in Marshall Sahlins' _Islands of History_" Tina Neumann, Arizona State University, "The Poetics of American Sign Langua= ge" 3. Within the Academy Norman Finkelstein, English Department, Xavier University, Chair Joe Amato, Writing Program, Illinois Institute of Technology, tba Kangmi Kim, University of Wisconsin-Madison, "On the Need for Orality in the Classroom" Alan Golding, English Department, University of Louisville, "White-boy Avant-Gardism and Cross-Cultural Poetics: Charles Bernstein as Poet-Critic" 4. Voices, Spaces, Performance: The Poetics of Armand Schwerner in The Tablets and Other Writing Michael Heller, NYU, Chair Arthur Sabatini, Department of Interdisciplinary Arts and Performance, Arizona State University West, "Culture and Poetics" Michael Heller, NYU, "Voice and Disjunction" Willard Gingerich, Dean of Graduate Arts and Sciences, St. John's University, "Cultural Representation" Katherine Von Spanckeren, English Department, University of Tampa, "Praxis of a Buddhist Poetics" 10:00-11:30, PANELS 1. Publishing and Outreach, Roundtable Mark Nowak, XCP: Cross-Cultural Poetics, Chair Carolyn Holbrook, SASE Chris Peditto, Heat Press Allan Kornblum, Coffeehouse Press Martin Spinelli, Line/break 2. Post-War African American Poetry David Jones, English Department, University of Minnesota, Chair Michael Bibby, English Department, Shippensburg State University, "Stranger in the Village: Poetry and the Racial Uncanny, 1945-1955" Skip Fox, Department of English, University of Southern Louisiana, "On Nathaniel Mackey" Elizabeth Frost, English Department, Fordham University, "Agendas of Race and Gender: Sonia Sanchez and the Black Arts Movement" 3. Outsiderhood ???University of Minnesota, Chair Duncan Smith, German Department, Brown University, "Poetry from the Tower and Dumpster: Vatic Poems by H=F6lderlin and Everett Maddox" Kevin Browne, Anthropology Department, University of Wisconsin-Madison, "Poetry, Ethnography and the Dispossessed: Exploring Poems of a Mental Patient and of Street Children in Central Java" Jason Winslade, Program in Performance Studies, Northwestern University, "Incarcerated Incantations: Occult Poetics and the Performance of Magickal Resistance in a Correctional Institution" 4. "Identity in Revolution": Some Latin American/Caribbean Poetics Silvia Lopez, Comparative Literature, University of Minnesota, Chair Bruce Campbell, Critical Studies in Discourse and Society, University of Minnesota, "Revolutionary Death and the Phantom Public Sphere" Loretta Collins, English Department, University of Iowa, "Trouble It: Rebel/Revel Soundspace in the Caribbean Diaspora: A Bricolage of Recorded Interviews, Snapshots, Poem Fragments, and Popular Music" Michael Eldridge, English Department, Humboldt State University, "'I Am Going to Buy Me a Bungalow': Calypso Comes to the U.S." Robert Zamsky, Program in Poetics, SUNY-Buffalo, ""The Anterior Question: Cultural Fetishism in the Poesis of Aim=E9 C=E8saire" 11:30-1:00 LUNCH BREAK 1:00-2:10, PANELS: 1. Questioning Disciplinarity Jigna Desai, English Department, University of Minnesota, Chair Aldon Nielsen, English Department, Loyola Marymount University, "Can Cultural Studies Speak Poetry?" Sw. Anand Prahlad, English Department, University of Missouri-Columbia, "Getting Happy: From Ethnopoetics to Cultural Poetics (Ethnographic Writing: A Contested Discourse)" Hilton Obenzinger, Program in Modern Thought and Literature, Stanford University, "Writing (In) the Past" 2. Canadian Multiculturalism Christopher Bracken, English Department, University of Alberta, Chair =46red Wah, "Race Writing the Lyric Poetic" Jeff Derksen Roy Miki, "Can I See Your ID? Writing in the Age of 'Race' Codes that Bind" 3. READING: Kimberly TallBear Mary Ann Cain George Kalamaras Jeff Hansen Introductions by Carolyn Erler 4. READING: Kenneth Sherwood Norman Finkelstein Skip Fox Hank Lazer Introductions by Anna Reckin 2:20-3:30, PANELS 1. Performance and Poetics in a Feminist Theater Teirab AshSharif, African and Afro-American Studies, University of Minnesota, Chair Amy Levine, Critical Studies in Discourse and Society, University of Minnesota, "Women and Performance in Morocco: The Case of the Shikhat" Rebecca M. Brown, Department of Art History, University of Minesota, "Femininity and Muharram: Nineteenth Century British Representation" Negar Mottahedeh, Critical Studies in Discourse and Society, University of Minnesota, "Maybe Some Other Time: Bahram Bayza'is Film Language" 2. Ethnography/Sound/Poetics David Michalski, School for the Visual Arts, Chair Michelle Kisliuk, Department of Music, University of Virginia, "Musical Performance, Field Experience, and the Poetic Frontier" Stephen Cope, Literature Department, UC-San Diego, "The Ethnography of Sound: Possession and (Dis)possession in Nathaniel Mackey's Novels" 3. Performance Patrick Scully, Chair Derek Goldman, Performance Studies, Northwestern University, "The Poetics of Adaptation: From a Miniscule Conference Room to a 500-Seat Thater: Staging Fiction and Ethnography in Leon Forrests' Divine Days and Roger Lancaster's Life is Hard" Susan Jahoda, Department of Studio Art, University of Massachusetts, "Frictional Contacts and Other Stories" Leanne Trapedo Sims, "The Mikvah: Women's Songs" 4. READING Paul Naylor Loss Pequeno Glazier Jen Hofer =46red Wah Introductions by Walter Lew 3:45-5:00 READINGS 1. Wendy Rose Barbara Tedlock Maurice Kenny Armand Schwerner Introductions by Dale Kakkak, Menominee Nation 5:00-7:00 DINNER BREAK 7:00-8:30 KEYNOTE READING AT THE MUSIC DEPARTMENT RECITAL HALL KAMAU BRATHWAITE Introduction by John Wright, University of Minnesota 8:45-CLOSING, CAMPUS CLUB RECEPTION, BAR, OPEN READING SUNDAY OCTOBER 19 8:45-10:00 AM, PANELS 1. "Language Advisory": CD/Radio Poetix Erik Belgum, VOYZ Productions, Chair cris cheek, "On the Work of Bob Cobbing" Martin Spinelli, Line/break, "Language Advisory: Poetry on Public Radio" Rob Fitterman, NYU, "Millenial Appropriations" 2. Asian American Performance David Mura, Asian-American Renaissance, Chair Thomas Kim, English Department, Boston College, "Resistance Inter Dicta: Representation, Materiality, and Language in Theresa Hak Kyung Cha's Dict=E9= e" Juliana Chang, English Department, Boston College, "Poetry that Matters: Inscribing the Racialized Body" Heinz Insu Fenkl, Eastern Michigan State University, "Surgical Mercy" 3. Some Jewish Poetics Riv-Ellen Prell, Program in American Studies, University of Minnesota, Chair Norman Finkelstein, English Department, Xavier University, "Messianic Ethnography: Rothenberg's Poland/1931" Amy Nestor, English Department, SUNY-Buffalo, "Noting Traces: Entries of Culture Lost in Zapisnik Pana Pinkeho (the Diary of Mr Pinke) by Ewald Murrer" Eric Murphy Selinger, English Department, DePaul University, "California Kaballah: The Roots and Branches of Tree 1-5 (1970-75)" 4. READING: Andrew Schelling, Naropa Institute Jane Augustine Michael Heller, NYU Introductions by George Kalamaras 10:15-11:30, KEYNOTE ADDRESS AT THE NOLTE CONFERENCE CENTER KIRIN NARAYAN, UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN-MADISON ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:40:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, henry wrote: > Yes, "exercises" can bring a breath of fresh air & liberation & play > into the writing process. . . fresh air, liberation and play _is_ the writing process (for me anyway). It's also the reading process. I use exercises in my writing classes--I also ask what poetry the students read. A surprising number of them read very little (this is an undergrad class, and many take it for elective credit). I see plenty of thoughtless form, sentimental content, etc. Exercises are a way to break out of that, as is reading. Etc etc. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:37:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: Writing experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mention of Oulipo reminds me to mention a newish book i picked up last week in toronto: _Oulipo Laboratoy_ (Atlas Press, London 1995) featuring works by Queneau, Calvino, Fournel, Berge, Jouet & Mathews... important stuff that i think can legitimatly claim to be "experimental", so the title seems approp... glad to have another source, beyond the U. of Nebraska anthology, and more is promised. & while i'm here: several years ago, i was stuck w/ what seemed like a promising fragment... & set myself the task of recycling the vocabulary from that poempart to complete th poem... i liked the results quite a bit--th puzzle of reusing each of the original words in new arrangements forced me to refocus on the language material rather than my ideas or emotions or whatever, and the echoing/repetions added some sonic interest, i thot. you could base an excersize on that, i think, & praps students wd learn something by confronting those processes & concerns--that cd be of use, whether or no the resulting "poems" were any "good"... i kinda meant to go back and try that technique again mself, but never got around to it... but at what point would that become gimmimimicry?(thanx fr that word, henry!) when the results were no longer interesting? or when the writer no longer learned anything frm the excercize? asever luigi ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:08:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Writing experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This has all been very interesting, and as pointed out along the way both sides are almost in agreement anyway. I note Marjorie Perloff's _Radical Artifice_ (among others) as pointing to the fact that sometimes setting up formal 'limitations' is a means by which to get into the poem. I feel good about some of the 'homolinguistic translations' which, as Bernstein & Meyer point ou, comes from bpNichol & others, because the way in which I had to think about formal constraints lead me out of the prisonhouse of lyric egotism. For that alone, they've been worthwhile. For some at least. Certainly for David B just on the list recently. But what do we call all the work with his 'speaking figures' that Alan Jen Sondheim has been doing: who or what arew Julu & Jennifer if not formal constraints by any other name? So I agree with Henry on the one hand but have found that I can find my way toward connections with that history of poetry he seeks through such 'work,' Then there's what I do think is a great poem, Ronald Johnson's _Radi Os_, the whole thing what I would call a form of 'homolinguistic translation' of the first four books of _Paradise Lost_ (not to mention a lot of what happens throughout _Arc_). If this be writing experimentation, let me at it. ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The blank page was merely an interval or an intrusion. We could not rescue it nor could we huddle, as if the page were big enough. Kathleen Fraser ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 09:16:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: <199709160537.WAA09164@pantano.theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >Seems there is some idea here that a poem wrought by a method or >procedure can't be as sincere or close to the bone or _____________ >(anything) as one which is not wrought by such method or procedure. I >don't agree with that at all. Me too. Getting out of self-delusion, easy tricks, etc. ain't easy. Some kind of formal something (method, procedure, constraint, etc.) can be a huge help, get you a lot closer to the bone. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 10:56:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: writing exercises In a message dated 97-09-16 05:10:58 EDT, you write: > And what an idea, a >whodunnit written entirely without the letter e, in which the murderer turns >out to be the errant vowel! That's way too deep for me. Miles, Seriously, what you've said about literary history and Perec is very good. But I don't agree (w/ C.B.) that writing alone with one's thoughts produces unoriginal & banal work--unless that's all one's got in one's head. Let the exercises flourish & multiple. I'm past my school years, so I, luckily, don't have to endure them. Finngan (oops, I wrote my name without the letter e) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 12:44:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Keeney Subject: Re: writing exercises >fresh air, liberation and play _is_ the writing process (for me >anyway). >It's also the reading process.> Yes. On the intersection of writing/reading process/praxis (and to bring the thread back to its original question) a good source to introduce to a (primarily undergrad?) work- shop class would be Padgett's _Creative Reading_, which organizes & discuses reading/writing 'exercises' both old and new (at least new to me) in his own fun informative way. * * As for aphorisms and art, perhaps 'art is to hide art,' but -- art is to reveal art -- or rather (w/ nod to Shklovsky) -- art (re-(in-))arts art -- or but really, -- art is always its opposite -- [image: ellipsis] -- art , never art -- * words, words, words, 5co++ On Tue, 16 Sep 1997 08:40:53 -0400 Dean Taciuch writes: >On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, henry wrote: > >> Yes, "exercises" can bring a breath of fresh air & liberation & play >> into the writing process. . . > > >fresh air, liberation and play _is_ the writing process (for me >anyway). >It's also the reading process. > >I use exercises in my writing classes--I also ask what poetry the >students >read. A surprising number of them read very little (this is an >undergrad >class, and many take it for elective credit). I see plenty of >thoughtless >form, sentimental content, etc. Exercises are a way to break out of >that, >as is reading. Etc etc. > >Dean > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:45:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: compuslave gadzooks! aol did this to me and it was awful. so compuserve is hassling people as well? aol likes to send you their "free disks" then after you put them in, and fill out all the info, you realize, gradually, that 1) they don't work; 2) there is no cancellation information either on disk or in packaging. you are run through the gamut of long distance number after long distance number, transfer after transfer, only to find, at the end, that though you have asked, formally, to have service discontinued, been called upward of 3 or more times at home by aol salesperson asking if you are SURE you want to cancel, in fact, they never cancel you at all! e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:58:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: the REAL TRUTH about the Free Cuisinart and web site Comments: To: jordanh@on-net.net POETICS LIST: re http confusion on free cuis, the official, real, true url is: http://www.on-net.net/~cca/wowzine/wowzine.html re identity issue, more later. re turning sound off on web site, see following note from jordie: -------------------------------------------------------- From jordanh@on-net.net Fri Sep 5 22:20:25 1997 I sent a reply to Judy Roitman, but you will have to post to poetics since I cannot post there. Here are the instructions for turning off the sound: If you are using Netscape or Internet explorer, then what you should have on the screen is a small box which is labeled "Crescendo." There are several buttons on that box. One of the buttons near the right end of the box has a small square on it. This button, when clicked, shuts off the music. If you cannot do that, there is also a small red dot in the box, which is on a line above the buttons. If you right click on that red dot, and drag it to the left, the volume of the sound will go down. Thus you may shut the sound down to nothing, if you wish. If either of these options does not work, please let us know. at jordanh@on-net.net or dwaink@on-net.net. ---------------------------- IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPORTANT!!! FINALLY -- we had so much fun with "Identity" issue we've decided to put together ANOTHER "theme" issue -- November issue will be on RITES OF PASSAGE If that strikes anyone's fancy, please feel free to send poem, story, essay, prose, review, artwork, etc on idea, anything tangential but slightly connected to idea, anything contraindicting idea, etc. to jordie at jordanh@on-net.net, or to me at elliza@ai.mit.edu e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:44:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: add ress MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rod that url you mentioned I think is http://members.aol.com/jordan70/million/1.html okdokey J ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:04:55 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: (belated)birthdaycard for Jackson Mac Low MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT well, I'd send it to him, but I don't have his address. Chris -- *(belated)birthdaycard* for Jackson Mac Low In 1921, "nineteen" ,might we thinking. "eat bugs": it's um terrific set of nutri tional means. that is "nineteen&one" but fortified is On. "ink bugs": it's a "ribbed seeks pro portional", i.e., (HUM) "anydaynow" the # of Originals = Copies of Each. -- .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:43:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: more exercise some final (maybe) heresies on this subject. I love preaching to the unconverted. Poetry is the supreme art. This is an old-fashioned view. It is the synthesis in its own sphere of architecture, music, incantation, performance, philosophy, theatre. When St. Mandelstam said "classicism is revolution" he was not referring to some chilly intellectual realm but to the pre-socratic Greece of Nietzsche in which dionysian & apollonian elements (energy & intellect) are fused in incantation. the only way such fusion takes place is where there is disciplined frenzy. Knowledge & inspiration. Poetry is rare as well as everywhere. I don't know honestly if I've ever produced poetry by this definition. But I think that's what it is, as opposed to versifying, writing, or exercises. It's a kind of formality which seems alien to a lot of the postmodern ethos. The challenge is to reintroduce this sense of poetry in a contemporary world absorbing contemporary history & experience. & it might appear in unexpected places. All I'm thinking is that along with empowering writers in a classroom setting - show them the real thing. Encourage them to lift their eyes to the mountains. & play them some old blues while you're at it. - Henry gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:37:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Writing experiments Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been recycling myself in a way and I think to good effect. I have also been putting my words into drawings and finding this worth doing. http://www.public.usit.net/trbell if interested. tom bell At 09:37 AM 9/16/97 -0400, robert drake wrote: >mention of Oulipo reminds me to mention a newish book i picked >up last week in toronto: _Oulipo Laboratoy_ (Atlas Press, London >1995) featuring works by Queneau, Calvino, Fournel, Berge, Jouet >& Mathews... important stuff that i think can legitimatly claim >to be "experimental", so the title seems approp... glad to have >another source, beyond the U. of Nebraska anthology, and more is >promised. > >& while i'm here: several years ago, i was stuck w/ what seemed >like a promising fragment... & set myself the task of recycling >the vocabulary from that poempart to complete th poem... i liked >the results quite a bit--th puzzle of reusing each of the original >words in new arrangements forced me to refocus on the language >material rather than my ideas or emotions or whatever, and the >echoing/repetions added some sonic interest, i thot. you could >base an excersize on that, i think, & praps students wd learn >something by confronting those processes & concerns--that cd be >of use, whether or no the resulting "poems" were any "good"... >i kinda meant to go back and try that technique again mself, but >never got around to it... but at what point would that become >gimmimimicry?(thanx fr that word, henry!) when the results were >no longer interesting? or when the writer no longer learned >anything frm the excercize? > >asever >luigi > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:17:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Hale Subject: QUESTION FOR TRUE POETS Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A few critics have dismissed my poems as not being poems and have dismissed me as not being a poet. But one principle of criticism has it that only true poets can recognize poetic creativity or function as critics of poetry -- and that the only true poets are those whose work conveys genuine poetic creativity. But I have read the work of these critics; none of it demonstrated poetic creativity. These critics' judgements should be rejected, since these critics are not true poets The argument above is vulnerable to criticism on the grounds that it (A) Presupposes what it sets out to conclude, since the principle requires that only true poets can determine whether the critics' work demonstrates creativity (B) uses the distinction between poets and critics as though everyone fell into one category or the other (C) gives no justification for the implicit claim that the standing of a poet can be judged (D) makes an unjustifiable distinction, since it is possible that some critics are also poets (E) inevitably leads to the conclusion that poets can never learn to improve their poetry, since no poet is in a position to criticize his or her own work ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 13:55:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: more exercise some final (maybe) heresies on this subject. I love preaching to the unconverted. Poetry is the supreme art. This is an old-fashioned view. It is the synthesis in its own sphere of architecture, music, incantation, performance, philosophy, theatre. When St. Mandelstam said "classicism is revolution" he was not referring to some chilly intellectual realm but to the pre-socratic Greece of Nietzsche in which dionysian & apollonian elements (energy & intellect) are fused in incantation. the only way such fusion takes place is where there is disciplined frenzy. Knowledge & inspiration. Poetry is rare as well as everywhere. I don't know honestly if I've ever produced poetry by this definition. But I think that's what it is, as opposed to versifying, writing, or exercises. It's a kind of formality which seems alien to a lot of the postmodern ethos. The challenge is to reintroduce this sense of poetry in a contemporary world absorbing contemporary history & experience. & it might appear in unexpected places. All I'm thinking is that along with empowering writers in a classroom setting - show them the real thing. Encourage them to lift their eyes to the mountains. & play them some old blues while you're at it. - Henry gould Henry, heresy is never final as soon as its uttered there's another looking back at you - For you, for them+many the classroom is the REEL thing and if some culd write that gesture - mark&pin it - under the glass/The strew in that little pressure cooker/looker out the window then indeed that might be a mightyverse described. But to dislocate the real/wheel about everytime someone says, 'What can you you there?' well, i'd like to see that wheal as well. The knack of that/the techne to mark the circle as its own target well, why look elswhere for a trick once turned that can be transferred to any reel whorehouse anywhere? In the class, in the exercise itself are cramps yet to be clamped and squeezed and unprosed. and, were I that, a student a teacher there and could learn to attend just that, to focus it precisely, but, for those of us who live another exercise its much the same - we read stare the window down till we finally getit where we are. no? to expand on Bateson, are we in the alternate of a period of investigative formalism, an orgy of loose thinking or, a time of just plain maybe? red ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:12:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: <199709160900.KAA04021@mailhost.dircon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No doubt exercises or self-imposed (self-invented?) formal constraints are sometimes useful. It should also be obvious that sometimes a writer sitting alone with her thoughts can produce unique writing. To assert the opposite is on the face of it not only provocative, but absurd, and I hope you misparaphrase. Or was Emily Dickenson doing calisthenics while she composed? >As Charles Bernstein pointed out some time ago now in "Thought's Measure", >the writer who sits, pen in hand, alone with her thoughts, invariably >produces writing which is far from unique. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:14:18 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: writing exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark weiss wrote: > > No doubt exercises or self-imposed (self-invented?) formal constraints are > sometimes useful. It should also be obvious that sometimes a writer sitting > alone with her thoughts can produce unique writing. To assert the opposite > is on the face of it not only provocative, but absurd, and I hope you > misparaphrase. Or was Emily Dickenson doing calisthenics while she composed? > > >As Charles Bernstein pointed out some time ago now in "Thought's Measure", > >the writer who sits, pen in hand, alone with her thoughts, invariably > >produces writing which is far from unique. my god we're doomed! Layne (sitting alone with her computer -- does that count?) http://www.sonic.net/layne "A Quiet Place" -- Poetry ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 14:47:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: writing exercises In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970916141236.006ea008@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dickinson, as we know her, never sat alone with her thoughts. The sounds and restraints of the hymn stanza were her calisthenics--an exercise to isolate certain muscles (or rhythms) and promote the creation of beauty. Why anyone has to quote Bernstein for this puzzles me. This is surely a critical cliche. Auden and any number of poets likely detested by many on this List have uttered similar apothegms. The serious disagreement concerns the originality or radicalness of the restraint, not its presence. Mark Baker On Tue, 16 Sep 1997, mark weiss wrote: > No doubt exercises or self-imposed (self-invented?) formal constraints are > sometimes useful. It should also be obvious that sometimes a writer sitting > alone with her thoughts can produce unique writing. To assert the opposite > is on the face of it not only provocative, but absurd, and I hope you > misparaphrase. Or was Emily Dickenson doing calisthenics while she composed? > > >As Charles Bernstein pointed out some time ago now in "Thought's Measure", > >the writer who sits, pen in hand, alone with her thoughts, invariably > >produces writing which is far from unique. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 18:21:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: utter apothegms In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Likewise, it makes me queasy to assume that Auden is detested by many on this List -- hard to imagine that he would make anybody uneasy, or angry! at this late date, and harder to imagine that he wouldn't be seen as a genial forebear of Ashbery, and O'Hara, and Schuyler, and Koch?... Signed, Jordan who would like to invite those on this List in the Greater Brooklyn area to come to Charleston Bar tomorrow night at 9 pm (on Bedford Ave betw. N 7th and N 8th, that is, not far from the Bedford St stop on the L) to hear Anselm Berrigan read his terrific poems -- At 2:47 PM -0700 9/16/97, Mark Baker wrote: >Why anyone has to quote Bernstein for this puzzles me. This is surely a >critical cliche. Auden and any number of poets likely detested by many >on this List have uttered similar apothegms. The serious disagreement >concerns the originality or radicalness of the restraint, not its presence. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 15:15:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: a little poem Chronos - Eater of Children Do not sing the path of greatness, For it was writ by the large to seduce the small, What elevates the song, the word that moves beyond the "petty" thoughts of self-annoyance, was writ by those that eat the small. That which does not move beyond itself, "Transcend," so they say, so they say may be very good, so they say; But, But, But But But But But, "Only that which reaches beyond itself, makes the extra gesture," to what? To praise the eater of children, who die starving at the banquets of "Just Say No", whose gods are manufactured to just say this, and no more? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 22:42:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" : Biblio Whee graphy : : for Hannah Weiner : some Annotations : . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . *A Journal Entry*'s (1975) striking cover photo the - w - o - r - d - floats; it is upon a forehead this is the forehead upon which we spe - a - k - cast like hand puppets on a curtain - full caps s & ghosts of - l - e - t - t - e - r - s - as o, Taos of *little books/indians - a composition book* (8 indige'nes mention the ladinos o no sajones (0 on the roof of speckled black and white bords "& it didn't hurt POCKETS" (39) caps and verticality nearly dizz (iness) turning tuning to a *spoke* - seven faced with tongues from the Beatus of Ferdinand II & Sancha of Aragon Biblioteca Nacional de Madrid "name calls it the point" (104) in latters or gondola-crossing bridges of lines - fragile as letters lattice bridg waters as thy must. the prose fast (1992) its blak tiger con leopard leaping into paper smooth day milk from bare legs & linen "a neat 3X4 inch piece of cloth was in its place on the floor" (15) * w e e k s * photog 90 b barbar rosenthal mac spread palettes - i c mac type - i c dot mtrx - pointilsof img - photo montage - type faced and pointilate - "the latest finger- print technology" (unpaged) "were hit with shrapnel" (unpaged) "there is no other peace- ful way to reform" (unpaged) sumptous shape and weighty planes in pink bold cover stock (1983) AWEDE * S 1 6 I 1 6 X 1 6 T 1 6 E 1 6 E 1 6 * moves in white paper slips "within it was written we are enlarged pancreas" (unpa) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "W R I T E I T D O W N - sixteen sentences s G R A N D M O T H E R - een this summe 1982 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . the following is ALL SEEN AS WORDS BEFORE i" . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . seen through a half slip of half-light the translucent inserted sheet printed in red muted mouth and blazed chalk board wiped * sileNt teachers : remeMbered sequel * (199 4) "spelling error off the continue"(17) who what 'classical' b&w pose - for the classi "whee i fe i phd" (38) a lesson to all who value educachievement *CPDE* {OEMD (1982) "from the INTERNATIONAL CPDE OF SIGNALS for the Use of All Nation" the closest I have seen to poems in hex code or how the 8 bit or 7 binary hex dex Loss =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peque=F1o_?= Glazier maysheekos antiguos? Or my son who con- fused his words and instead of tex-mex called me techno-mex. Vale! The Trans-Pe- cos and Rio Grande delta. Mexico City how letters speak from xwords from xfor :U=i :Ui : "In addition each flag has a name; A, Alpha, B, Bravo, C, Charle, etc" rich with code and black palettes upon which in scratchmarks engraved are point s & boxes mores or bin or MARC morse cod *Nijole's house* in white covers white card stock and folded endpages 1981 ("WHICH IS THURSDAY") (written on Tuesday (son) con IfnNXIO pIN~EIRO su Cuatro Palomas) until finally *we do speak silent we speak si- lent* (1996) tex al mos com for tab ly spr'e'd out lent op ulent of graphs t words have azes axes aztec hu nk ed for whitesp ace in the so "1 funny 2 hilarious i am imperious 3 struck" (21) or for bob dylan (as post card indicates) Post Neo's *WRITTEN IN THE ZERO ONE* this g ray coverstock is sumptu a size iz red courier but big type as if pressed into gray ripples of the 'bord' the ex panse i s where amid this good size for page ii expn broad blanks o backsides and the wh ii te is a wealth of what is y iznt in its ordered steps like ladders or diamond pat terns on the ball court walls (1990): . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "book is what it is called and this is the last page still slanti out to the margin" ... AND THIS PAGE" (unpaged) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Loss Pequen~o Glazier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:34:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner (1928-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been working on "Hannah Weiner (1928-1997): An Online Tribute." This extended forray into HTML is is nearly complete. If you have anything special to contribute to the issue, please let me know. (Write me directly at glazier@acsu.buffalo.edu if you wish.) Otherwise, the issue is almost complete and should be ready soon. The issue should be ready, graphics-enhanced, and viewable in a couple of days via the EPC home page. (Photos are especially sought. Write me!) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:17:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Markus Foutu Subject: Re: QUESTION FOR TRUE POETS stop carping and go do your work markus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:26:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: From Jennifer with ALL the obvious excuses... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >From Jennifer, on the Attitudes of the Arthropods: >Now I will note the attitudes in the time of the arthropods, >When helmetted Zor ran his lanky legions around the army of Murr. >The golden-haired maiden, with three drops of blood, christianed >The sword of the family of Aral, born of the dank ruins of Drur. >Those times past the ruins of Feggard! Ah for the mead and the storm! >Such moments of these, like the falling of peas, take us away >From the norm! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 00:38:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Jennifer's Ponder MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Jennifer's Ponder "Such moments of these, like the falling of peas, take us away / From the norm!" Jennifer ponders: "Such moments _of_ these" (her emphasis)? Moments of what, perhaps, what came before in the poem? Mead, storm, and ruins and some other stuff, perhaps the drops of blood, there was an implication of a castle, certainly a fortress, god knows what else. Not to mention (why not?) the arthropods ... But then, hmmm ... "Such moments _like_ these, _like_ the falling of peas" does seem to over- do it, these moments don't have to double up, quite, but they do! Hee hee! So she considers "take us away from the norm!" might absorb (like her pan- ties in a puddle!) the grammar that came before, just a bit off-putting. And lets it alone, but wanted you to know this all along ... ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:35:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: compuslave MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Eliza -- brilliant! (I assume this is all a coyly crafted Buddhist metaphor ???) cheer, d.i. p.s.: in case you didn't hap to read the gneus, Compuserv is slated to be bought out by AOL . . . > gadzooks! aol did this to me and it was awful. so compuserve is > hassling people as well? aol likes to send you their "free disks" > then after you put them in, and fill out all the info, you realize, > gradually, that 1) they don't work; 2) there is no cancellation > information either on disk or in packaging. you are run through the > gamut of long distance number after long distance number, transfer > after transfer, only to find, at the end, that though you have > asked, formally, to have service discontinued, been called upward of > 3 or more times at home by aol salesperson asking if you are SURE > you want to cancel, in fact, they never cancel you at all! e > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 01:53:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: ATTACK on a POEM by WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - ATTACK on CRAZY JANE TALKS WITH THE BISHOP by WILLIAM BUTLER YEATS What an idiot Bishop! I met the Bishop on the road He should be in church! Shut him up, evil church! And much said he and I. He talks too much! Guilty of ageism! 'Those breasts are flat and fallen now, Sexless Bishop! Just for children, eh! Those veins must soon be dry; Stop looking! Sure he didn't say that! Live in a heavenly mansion, Where he gropes you! Liar, liar, you wouldn't know! Not in some foul sty.' Beauty, beauty! True, but shut him up! 'Fair and foul are near of kin, Yeats is also foul! The poet's in love! And fair needs foul,' I cried. Liar! He denies it! Oh yeah, shut up Yeats! 'My friends are gone, but that's a truth (Lie!) Depression and love, eh? Nor grave nor bed denied, Forget Donne, Yeats! Idiot! Raise the body! Learned in bodily lowliness Don't screw with it! Give her your heart! And in the heart's pride. Why not! She struggled! Yeah, don't generalize! 'A woman can be proud and stiff Written by a man! Men need women more than women need men! When on love intent; Admit it! Back to the mansion again! But Love has pitched his mansion in Anal sex! So what! The place of excrement; You can't face it, Yeats, can you? What about the Man! For nothing can be sole or whole He's broken in two! More parts, three! That has not been rent.' Liar, broken Man, idiot! __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Sep 1997 23:59:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: The Poemercise Alan dinero of Taverner's Koans invited me to try out his new 'emergency' forum system at his new cite. It's a Nicenet offering which promotes itself as an 'online classroom' format. The resulting test turns out to be a much better poem_de_terre, than the original test data. In addition, the poem within the poem _Symphony_ which was pasted in to test the frame input capacity turns out far better than the original which was nicely indented and line broken to exagerate the voices. Once pasted - Nicenet input frame obligingly demolished all the indents and spacing and provided its own far more successful version - the exercise writes the poem and the classroom is the reality of exercise. If you don't like it, complain. red slider Wednesday, September 17, 1997 1:06AM CST ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Home ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Poetry Workshop Class Conferencing Link Sharing Documents Schedule Class Roster ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Send a Personal Message View Personal Messages Edit Your User Info Join a New Class Create a Class ------------------------------------------------------------------------ PROTECT YOUR PRIVACY: LOG OUT Class Conferencing ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Welcome to the new forum!" Conference: POSTED BY: Alan DeNiro - 9/8/97 SUBJECT: Wow... [ Reply to Topic | Reply to Alan ] Well, folks, we'll see how this works itself out, as a test of, so to speak, the emergency broadcast system of taverner's koans. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ POSTED BY: Alan DeNiro - 9/9/97 SUBJECT: sub [ Reply to Topic | Reply to Alan ] x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x x ------------------------------------------------------------------------ POSTED BY: red slider - 9/17/97 SUBJECT: um this seems fainly like... [ Reply to Topic | Reply to red ] ahhh yes a classroom - musty dank adrenal glandular first day papers names tiny windows out of which we stare waiting in lye vats of lab rats coated tongues bloated bodies lined on target tarmac waiting for jet teachers to arrive with briefcases chained to loan payment schedules poets ignite! Make my thumbs sweat, yeah, make 'em sweat. Der hare professori - we wazza here anna you wazzana nowz youzza her anna we wazzana. Somma glass hey luigi! letza go bocci balla...sayonara. redanzo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ POSTED BY: red slider - 9/17/97 SUBJECT: THIS IS A TEST OF THE ERMINAGENCY [ Reply to Topic | Reply to red ] BOARDCASTING CISTERN (TESTING BROAD BAND SIMULATION OF IMMAMENT MONONUCLEOTIC POEMB ATTACK........................................ Symphony Your words between cement& sympathy chunks of private ceremonies ikebana for roses bitter tea in dirty glasses breaking through corrosive bands of salt dissolving hardened parts fusing intestines fomaldyhide vapors of tears drum rolls in your belly slow tar beats on sticky practice pads to shut out neighbor's screams the world sky oozing meadows leaking from the side of your mouth dry as violin resin flaking away the lips of your vagina speech less cracked& dry salt bands of colorless brick the mortician standing by; she has been probing the silence between your legs, your fame precedes you to this place your famous words flinging themselves into nights of drum rolls seamless as the petals of crushed frangipani your skin stretched over the stove of your body I put a lamp inside to keep you warm to shine into the pale horrors of the world the dry skin stretched over frames lit from within hanging in the sun to dry your proteins still puddled on the gurney the guilt still dripping from her fingers her eyes of frightened jellyfish as I lean over & bite your toe off below the purple tag and taste the sweet salty tears hiding from probings into your useless body cavities & tie it within the sash around my waste to hurry home to practice what you taught me about the timpani of trees while your toes fucked me in the tall leaves I pressed into blades of cement meadowgrass until quitting time and hurried home to find you there with a new work in one hand humming the second violins the other stirring my insides into swirls of Clara Schumann muffins your breath fumes bread-ethanol tongue rolls in imitation of oysters we will later funnel into each others mouths through leaking fingers stoppered with your slow-toed teasing "later, patches, go stir your kettles. boil my blood into cloud gathers" watching from the studio as chain kettles affirm the meanings in second violins sustaining them offering them violincellos, then cellos then tremolo rising falling woman shading the clouds rolling overhead firming tossing boiling into full arpeggios with the muted end of tomorrow night's performance your hums muting into words over felt covers that you insert into my body in eighths against my quarters sixteenths against eighths thirty seconds sixty-fourths into polished moonstones of coda swirling on the end of my favorite felt-core rollerball resolving your form your tears your oysters leaking from my eyes your name under the fluorescent smear of last night's appetizers her thumbprint whorled in oyster dust her caught eyes following the trail of sash over blood lines leaking from the corner of my lips her smile in rubber smock as I sign for your effects slipping my business card between her oyster-wet fingers smelling of you shedding the last tears onto the tile floor my smile leaking your tears your inviolability to hurry home to feel your rising hum your bread your oyster toe inside of me drinking from the well felt of my belly your rhythms your words your fine sense of control you tender orchestrations your scorings for timpani your felt-covered toe thumping inside of me your calling me "patches." to hurry home & slip into seamless bamboo. ------------------------------------------------ ..........................) THIS HAS BEEN A TEST OF THE ERMINEGENTSY BARDGUEST HISTAMINE - IF THIS HAD BEEN A REEL AGENCY YOU'D BE PLOMBED BY NOW - sayonara. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [ Add NewTopic ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ .LOG OUT . Nicenet is a volunteer organization of information professionals. Nicenet provides this forum free of charge. Information on this site is generated by the users. The views expressed are not necessarily those of Nicenet or its members. Bug reports should be directed to webmaster@nicenet.org. Sponsorship information requests should be directed to sponsorship@nicenet.org. Problems with the ICA should be directed to support@nicenet.org. General questions should be directed to questions@nicenet.org. Server space for Nicenet is graciously donated by The Searle Center for Teaching Excellence. Nicenet is powered by Allaire's Cold Fusion. All material copyright 1996 by Nicenet. and red slider is a production of lunatic poets incorpselated, a subsidiary of millennial millinaries, distributed by Spent Fuel-rods Detox and Home Appliances Center Proud Sponsors of Food-Additives-for-a-Hungry-Planet Missions - Calcuta, Rangoon, Bankok, Biloxi & Buffalo Ltd. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 02:18:19 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: more exercise Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I tend to agree with both sides in this debate, that exercises are useful and can lead to good or even great poems, and that poetry at heart is mysterious, without recipes, maps or a decent set of directions, driven by intuition, wisdom, and sweat. But amidst the handwringing, I'd like to point that poetry is also, well, fun, and that a poem can be pleasurable no matter what its origins. Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:19:20 -0400 Reply-To: potepoet@home.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: Potes & Poets Press Inc Subject: announce POTEPOETZINEFOUR Comments: To: spoon-announcements@jefferson.village.virginia.edu, cap-l@tc.umn.edu, fop-l@vm.cc.purdue.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit POTEPOETZINEFOUR, the women's writing issue of POTEPOETZINE, will be sent out this afternoon eastern daylight time---- for a free copy, send your email address to: potepoet@home.com --- to see previous issues of POTEPOETZINE, go to: http://www.ims.csuohio.edu/va/VAIntro.html --- intructions for submitting poetry will be included in the issue---- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 08:51:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: ashbery/theroux article I missed the original talk about the Theroux review(?) essay(?) on Ashbery & someone's been bugging me about it - can anyone please backchannel where/when it was published, or if it's online? Thanks - Henry Henry_Gould@brown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 10:14:21 EST Reply-To: rreynold@rci.rutgers.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: Rebecca Reynolds Organization: Rutgers University Subject: Re: living exercises > Auden and any number of poets likely detested by many > on this List have uttered similar apothegms. The serious disagreement > concerns the originality or radicalness of the restraint, not its presence. Is Auden detested by many on this list? At times, I don't know what to think (but I have been sitting alone with my thoughts -- and am weak -- ) rreynolds without hymns ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 11:07:12 +22323923 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities 8-13-1997 Subject: Re: QUESTION FOR TRUE POETS In-Reply-To: <970917001643_-1801062694@emout02.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Markus Foutu wrote: > stop carping and go do your work > > markus which very much made me think of a poem of mine: PASSIONATE DISEASE caught in the corner of my eye one nearly summer solstice day in the high sierras just before i crushed it beneath my shoe a cluster of blue flowers--as tiny as stars-- and i thought: this deliberate planet driving a hundred nights later autumn and a grinning, wanton cassiopeia presses agianst us as we hurry home: cassiopeia but not crabbed and scuttling cancer and i think, this arbitrary planet write for knowledge and desire are only momentary revelation wind without windmills assume that there is a predecessor of god and finish your work but don't dwell on it. (September, 1996) --ShaunAnne Tangney ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:51:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New Mark Wallace & special offer from Edge Books 3 new Edge books for $15! See end of post. Announcing publication of _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There_ by Mark Wallace If Mark Wallace did the comedy circuit, all that big hair and those sweet drinks would riot in the streets. _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There_ is a series of one to six line stanzas all revamping the idea of the one-liner. But the joke is always frightening, a world where the 2x4s pounding the cat are hitting our heads and they hurt damn it, as they always make us stop and consider what we are. He is the existential joker: if Batman met the poet and it was for real. --Juliana Spahr Mark Wallace's poetry is joyous, gloomy, frisky, reflective and vulnerable to a sense of the living world that he never tried to master, but to inhabit as a kind of sad old citizen, a belonger filled with longing. He loves the daily tunes, the ring of contemporary coinage, flashes of wry and sardonic humor, the lover's chagrin-- for the sake of the human conditions they are immediacies of, but it is a music of heaven and hell he listens for in it all. The structure of identity is exploded in the form of a three-dimensional literary method in which the borders of personality, of self and nonself, are simultaneous and conflicting modes of expression. Sometimes he takes off like a reasonable lecturer who suddenly becomes demented. He speaks great truths as casually as if they were lies. --Ron Silliman This amazing deflection of repetitive aphorisms swirls and spirals in upon itself, fueled by the delusory aggrandizements of the insidious institutions we call contemporary existence. Wallace manages to capture what it's like to find oneself all dressed up with no place to go. This is no book for the squeamish. Buy it if you have nothing better to do. You don't. --Joe Ross WARNING: The Surgeon General has determined that reading _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There_ may harm your mental equilibrium, impede your ability to act as a cog, and imperil your most functional cliches. --Jefferson Hansen OFFER: Get _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There_ by Mark Wallace, _perhaps this is a rescue fantasy_ by Heather Fuller, and _Stepping Razor_ by A.L.Nielsen for $15, or any 2 for $10. E-mail us your order and address and we'll bill you or send your check payable to Aerial/Edge to POBox 25642, Washington, DC 20007. All three books are perfectbound, together they retail for $29.50. This offer good til October 5th. We must charge postage on orders outside of the US. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 14:24:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: James Merrill Discussion Forum Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you would like to join a James Merrill internet discussion forum, please do so by sending the command: SUBSCRIBE JM-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname (in the body of the message, with nothing on the subject line) to: listproc@lists.missouri.edu. Or send a note to Tim Materer at engtim@showme.missouri.edu for more information. --"THIS FICTIVE SPACE WE HERE INHABIT IS / THE STOP TO TIME" Timothy Materer, 228 Tate Hall, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: living exercises Comments: To: Rebecca Reynolds In-Reply-To: <199709171423.KAA07991@erebus.rutgers.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No doubt Auden is more often detested than read... what, me cynical? Mark Scroggins On Wed, 17 Sep 1997, Rebecca Reynolds wrote: > > Auden and any number of poets likely detested by many > > on this List have uttered similar apothegms. The serious disagreement > > concerns the originality or radicalness of the restraint, not its presence. > > Is Auden detested by many on this list? At times, I don't know what > to think (but I have been sitting alone with my thoughts -- and am weak -- ) > > rreynolds > > without > hymns > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 15:30:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "aldon l. nielsen" To: mscroggi@ACC.FAU.EDU, POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: audenesque Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.7 Poetry makes one thing happen. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 17:45:47 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Auden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Is Auden detested by many on this list? At times, I don't know what > to think Can't speak for anyone else, but I'm very keen on the early Auden, always have been. And he has some very strange & radical poetry -- The Orators, had it been written in 1990 and not 1930, could have been published by Sun & Moon. The problem many people have with Auden is that his most interesting work isn't his best known, at least not in America. He'd written most of the poetry I really care about in the Auden canon before he came to this country in 1940. But the young Auden was radical in form and in politics, engage, and witty into the bargain. -- Robert Archambeau Department of English Lake Forest College Lake Forest, IL 60045 http://www.lfc.edu/~archamb/ Time ere poems Time ere plighted troth Nor forward glance nor backward gaze at signs none --Brian Coffey ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 19:19:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hg Subject: Re: living exercises In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 17 Sep 1997 12:38:06 -0400 from But somewhere always, nowhere particularly unusual, Almost anywhere in the landscape of water and houses, His crying competing unsuccessfully with the cry Of the traffic or the birds, is always standing The one who needs you, that terrified Imaginative child who only knows you As what the uncles call a lie, But knows he has to be the future and that only The meek inherit the earth, and is neither Charming, successful, nor a crowd; Alone among the noise and policies of summer, His weeping climbs toward your life like a vocation. - Auden, "Like a Vocation" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 18:54:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: New Writing Series in San Diego Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those of you in the San Diego area this Fall, here's the New Writing Series' schedule of events. Hope to see you there... Stephen Cope *** New Writing Series @ University of California, San Diego Fall Schedule: * Thursday, October 9: Luisa Futoransky Born and raised in Buenas Aires, Luisa Futoransky has lived in Israel, Japan, Spain, and Italy, and currently resides in Paris, where she received the honors of the Chevelier des Arts et Lettres. Author of eight books, Futoransky's first book of poems in translation has just been published by Junction Press in San Diego. * Wednesday, October 22: Fanny Howe Internationally known poet and novelist Fanny Howe is the recipient of an NEA Award and a California Arts Council Fellowship. Her novel _Nod_ (from Sun & Moon Press) and her book of poems _One Crossed Out_ (from Greywolf Press) are both due out this Fall. She is Professor of Literature at UCSD. * Wednesday, October 29: David Matlin A poet and novelist, David Matlin's first novel, _How the Night is Divided_, was nominated for a National Book Circle Critics Award. His most recent work, _Vernooykill Creek_, is based on Matlin's expereinces teaching in one of the oldest Prison Education Programs in the nation. * Wednesday, November 5: David Bromige The author of 30 books of poetry, fiction, and song, and likened by Rochelle Owens to "a congenial terrorist equipped with a smart bomb," David Bromige has been the recipient of numerous awards, including a Gertrude Stein Award for Innovative Writing and the Poet Laureate Award from the University of California. * Thursday, November 13: Adrian Castro Born in Miami of Cuban and Dominican heritage, Adrain Castro writes out of a rhythmic, multi-lingual Afro-Carribean tradition. An accomplished performer as well as a writer, Castro's book _Cantos to Blood & Honey_ is forthcoming from Coach House Press. * Thursday, November 20: Brenda Hillman Brenda Hillman's most recent and most experimental book, _Loose Sugar_, is her fifth from Wesleyan University Press. In 1995, she edited _The Poetry of Emily Dickenson_ for Shambala Press. Her awards include a Guggenheim Fellowship, two Pushcart Prizes, and in 1993 she was a Pulitzer Prize Finalist. *** All readings will be held at 4:30pm at the Performing Arts Space, Visual Arts Department, on the University of California, San Diego campus, with the exception of Adrian Castro's reading, which will be held at a location to be announced. Events are free and open to the public. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 22:50:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics 'never in and never out of print' ________________________________ New and On View at http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ****** MUDLARK No. 7 (1997) _Only a Friend Can Know_ by Mike O'Connor Poems and Translations on the Theme of _Chih-yin_ In Chinese the characters _chih_ and _yin_ in combination mean literally "to know the tone" or "the one who knows the tone or music." By extension, the term denotes "the one who understands or appreciates another's art"; thus, "the one who understands the mind and heart of another--a true friend." from the Introduction ****** Poster No. 7 (1997) "The Biggest Party Animal of Them All" by Robert Sward ****** Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ mudlark@unf.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Sep 1997 21:53:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: living exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "O what have you posted?" said reader to writer, "POETICS' the place where no poet is dissed, Hither's the bandwidth where banter is pleasant, This is the List where Wystan's most missed." "O do you imply," said queasy to quizzer, "That Koch will deny his debt to the Face? Didn't Auden tap Ashbery that year for the Yale? That slur on our List is a shocking disgrace!" Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 01:53:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Markus Foutu Subject: Re: QUESTION FOR TRUE POETS truely a lovely poem but I would push it here writes knowledge desires momentary revelation wind mills assume work & dwell warmest, Foutu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 02:13:54 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: I had my chance and lost it In-Reply-To: <97Sep17.175759hwt.370819(4)@relay2.Hawaii.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In today's NYT Times, there is a highly uninformative piece called "The Howl of a Poet and Hist Generation" on some PBS special American Masters: The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg (sounds like a criminal). Anyway, Gisberg is quoted as sayng, towards the end of his life (or that tv show), "I had my chance and lost it." Does anybody know the context of that remark? Is AG looking back on his poetic career as a failed project, or somethiing that swerved towards market banality or more devious forms of corruption. It seems a hard remark, full of pathos of a failed agon. Did he dfeel like it was all downhill from Howl to Randowm House jottings? Rob Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:53:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: living exercises In-Reply-To: <3420B3D9.73F0@bc.sympatico.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:53 PM -0700 9/17/97, Mark Baker wrote: >"O what have you posted?" said reader to writer, >"POETICS' the place where no poet is dissed, >Hither's the bandwidth where banter is pleasant, >This is the List where Wystan's most missed." > >"O do you imply," said queasy to quizzer, >"That Koch will deny his debt to the Face? >Didn't Auden tap Ashbery that year for the Yale? >That slur on our List is a shocking disgrace!" > > >Mark Baker nice play, shakespeare! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:58:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jarnot@PIPELINE.COM Subject: Re: I had my chance and lost it Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: Rob Wilson's question: That remark of Allen's is actually from a poem, the one that ends "Allen Ginsberg says don't follow my path to extinction." [i think it's called "After Lalon"?]. It must be in White Shroud. There's definitely a buddhist undertone to the statement "I had my chance and lost it", re: impermanence. It's actually kind of funny in that way. But also, i think it functions not as a comment on his own career (which i think he was pretty satisfied with) but as a comment on his role as a spokesperson, looking at the political and saying that in retrospect things could've been different. (even in terms of the route the left wing took toward the end of the 1960s). (which is also something that he talks about in the life and times video). lisa jarnot >In today's NYT Times, there is a highly uninformative piece called "The >Howl of a Poet and Hist Generation" on some PBS special American Masters: >The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg (sounds like a criminal). Anyway, >Gisberg is quoted as sayng, towards the end of his life (or that tv show), >"I had my chance and lost it." Does anybody know the context of that >remark? Is AG looking back on his poetic career as a failed project, or >somethiing that swerved towards market banality or more devious forms of >corruption. It seems a hard remark, full of pathos of a failed agon. Did >he dfeel like it was all downhill from Howl to Randowm House jottings? >Rob Wilson Jarnot@pipeline.com box 185/NY, NY 10009 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:25:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: I had my chance and lost it -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The line is in a poem whose name I don't recall, but it's on the fourth CD in the box set called Holy Soul Jelly Roll (I believe). The specific context is ambiguous and teasing -- Ginsberg does not spell out what he means -- his life as a port, his life as a man -- could be everything -- but the line is delivered with stunning conviction ... as well as humor. -- JR Foley >>> rob wilson 09/18/97 07:13am >>> In today's NYT Times, there is a highly uninformative piece called "The Howl of a Poet and Hist Generation" on some PBS special American Masters: The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg (sounds like a criminal). Anyway, Gisberg is quoted as sayng, towards the end of his life (or that tv show), "I had my chance and lost it." Does anybody know the context of that remark? Is AG looking back on his poetic career as a failed project, or somethiing that swerved towards market banality or more devious forms of corruption. It seems a hard remark, full of pathos of a failed agon. Did he dfeel like it was all downhill from Howl to Randowm House jottings? Rob Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:45:55 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Ginsberg a la N Y Times From: ADMIN::FUNKHOUSER 18-SEP-1997 10:07:01.90 To: ADMIN::KIMMELMAN CC: Subj: RE: fyi I believe the poem is called "Ode to Failure" but I could be mistake. Let me check. AH! I was wrong. The quote is from section VI of AG's poem "After Lalon" which appears in Cosmopolitan Greetings (p 81) feel free to forward it to the list... -funk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:47:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: I had my chance and lost it -Reply In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:25:37 -0500 from I thought maybe he do the Ez in different voices - Uncle Hen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:45:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ark E Peter Subject: Re: I had my chance and lost it In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII that line is from a poem called "After Lalon" and it is a funny/sad sort of retrospective of some of his life. there's a wonderful recording of it on "holy soul jelly roll" too. mark On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, rob wilson wrote: > In today's NYT Times, there is a highly uninformative piece called "The > Howl of a Poet and Hist Generation" on some PBS special American Masters: > The Life and Times of Allen Ginsberg (sounds like a criminal). Anyway, > Gisberg is quoted as sayng, towards the end of his life (or that tv show), > "I had my chance and lost it." Does anybody know the context of that > remark? Is AG looking back on his poetic career as a failed project, or > somethiing that swerved towards market banality or more devious forms of > corruption. It seems a hard remark, full of pathos of a failed agon. Did > he dfeel like it was all downhill from Howl to Randowm House jottings? > Rob Wilson > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 08:21:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: writing exercises of the glib & laureled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Auden lovers and loathers alike might be (at least slightly) amused by "Four Poems and a Funeral," a Christopher Hitchens piece, at: http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/sept97/news/news970911.html Included is this perfectly awful bit of a Ted Hughes poem about the Queen Mum, which begins: It was an eerie vision! The Land of the Lion! Each clear creature, crystal bright, Honey-lit with lion-light, All dreaming together the Dream of the Lion. And ends: A Queen's life is hard. Yet a Queen reigns Over the dream of her people, or nowhere. Rule Britannia! Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:32:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: writing exercises of the glib & laureled In-Reply-To: <34214707.9B5@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >>>It was an eerie vision! The Land of the Lion! Each clear creature, crystal bright, Honey-lit with lion-light, All dreaming together the Dream of the Lion. Rachel, except for the hackneyed b/b rhyme, are you quite positive this isn't late Ginsberg? No, he wouldn't have used "eerie." And all of this would have been run up in one line. Never mind. Gwyn, musing ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:37:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Yo, Susan Clark!! Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Susan, Will you backchannel me your "correct" email address. Your "spam protector" completely hides any reply address, even one I could subtract the "nospam" from. And, no, I don't live on Biddle Road anymore. Ron Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:23:53 -0600 Reply-To: LMullen@vines.ColoState.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Mullen Subject: Re: writing exercises MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm coming in late to this so maybe someone's already put in the plug for the latest issue of _Chain_: Procedures, proof that the writing experiment (and hey, what isn't?) is alive & well & kicking ass. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: writing exercises of the glib & laureled In-Reply-To: <34214707.9B5@concentric.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rachel-- that Hughes piece is indeed dreadful! Ted seems to be following in the footsteps of such other outstanding poet laureates as Nahum Tate and company. Does anyone know any books or articles on the effects of official laureatehood on poets' work? Richard Helgerson's _Self-Crowned Laureates_ is great on Jonson, Spenser, & Milton, but his point is precisely that they seized or assumed a laureate-like position themselves; something creepy seems to happen when a poet gets officially appointed. Mark On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Rachel Loden wrote: > Auden lovers and loathers alike might be (at least slightly) amused by > "Four Poems and a Funeral," a Christopher Hitchens piece, at: > > http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/sept97/news/news970911.html > > Included is this perfectly awful bit of a Ted Hughes poem about the > Queen Mum, which begins: > > It was an eerie vision! The Land of the Lion! > Each clear creature, crystal bright, > Honey-lit with lion-light, > All dreaming together the Dream of the Lion. > > And ends: > > A Queen's life is hard. Yet a Queen reigns > Over the dream of her people, or nowhere. > > Rule Britannia! > > Rachel Loden > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 09:50:20 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: more exercise MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugh Steinberg wrote: > > I tend to agree with both sides in this debate, that exercises are useful > and can lead to good or even great poems, and that poetry at heart is > mysterious, without recipes, maps or a decent set of directions, driven by > intuition, wisdom, and sweat. > > But amidst the handwringing, I'd like to point that poetry is also, well, > fun, and that a poem can be pleasurable no matter what its origins. > > Hugh Steinberg bravo! Layne http://www.sonic.net/layne "A Quiet Place" -- Poetry http://www.sonic.net/layne/calendar.html "Poets Leave Their Prints" -- Poetry Calendar ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 12:24:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: writing exercises Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" laura, a few folks *have* mentioned the current issue of _chain_, but hey yeah---why not say it again (and again): in my view, one of the most interesting mags out there!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 10:56:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: writing exercises of the glib & laureled In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Few poets laureate have been the best of their generation--most, in fact, have been more like Tate or Prior, in a word, hacks. So they didn't have far to fall. And Wordsworth had lost the flame long before he got the royal nod. Dryden, on the other hand, did almost all his best work while in office. Hughes probably does better work after hours, but he's never been such a much himself. At 11:32 AM 9/18/97 -0400, you wrote: >Rachel-- >that Hughes piece is indeed dreadful! Ted seems to be following in the >footsteps of such other outstanding poet laureates as Nahum Tate and >company. Does anyone know any books or articles on the effects of >official laureatehood on poets' work? Richard Helgerson's _Self-Crowned >Laureates_ is great on Jonson, Spenser, & Milton, but his point is >precisely that they seized or assumed a laureate-like position themselves; >something creepy seems to happen when a poet gets officially appointed. >Mark > >On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Rachel Loden wrote: > >> Auden lovers and loathers alike might be (at least slightly) amused by >> "Four Poems and a Funeral," a Christopher Hitchens piece, at: >> >> http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/sept97/news/news970911.html >> >> Included is this perfectly awful bit of a Ted Hughes poem about the >> Queen Mum, which begins: >> >> It was an eerie vision! The Land of the Lion! >> Each clear creature, crystal bright, >> Honey-lit with lion-light, >> All dreaming together the Dream of the Lion. >> >> And ends: >> >> A Queen's life is hard. Yet a Queen reigns >> Over the dream of her people, or nowhere. >> >> Rule Britannia! >> >> Rachel Loden >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 13:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Chain In-Reply-To: <199709181724.MAA28144@charlie.cns.iit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I also must say a good word about this issue. My own little contribution to it is nothing, outclassed on page after exciting page. Bizarrely, mine wasn't the only piece composed through a reading of Descartes's _Discourse on Method_. (!) Everyone subscribe! Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 11:21:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Re: writing exercises of the glib & laureled ... something creepy seems to happen when a poet gets officially appointed. Mark yes, strangely counterpoised to post-nobels, supreme court appointments and other high-rollers casting ballast and rising into the statusphere and outta sight. Perhaps the laureate balloons already had too much gas? red On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, Rachel Loden wrote: > Auden lovers and loathers alike might be (at least slightly) amused by > "Four Poems and a Funeral," a Christopher Hitchens piece, at: > > http://www.salonmagazine.com:80/sept97/news/news970911.html > > Included is this perfectly awful bit of a Ted Hughes poem about the > Queen Mum, which begins: > > It was an eerie vision! The Land of the Lion! > Each clear creature, crystal bright, > Honey-lit with lion-light, > All dreaming together the Dream of the Lion. > > And ends: > > A Queen's life is hard. Yet a Queen reigns > Over the dream of her people, or nowhere. > > Rule Britannia! > > Rachel Loden > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 14:20:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Chain In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mr. Kellogg et. al. I guess I must have missed it initially But how does one subscribe? Info anyone? I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Thu, 18 Sep 1997, David Kellogg wrote: > I also must say a good word about this issue. My own little contribution > to it is nothing, outclassed on page after exciting page. Bizarrely, mine > wasn't the only piece composed through a reading of Descartes's _Discourse > on Method_. (!) > > Everyone subscribe! > > Cheers, > David > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > David Kellogg Duke University > kellogg@acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program > (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 > FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ > > There is no mantle > and it does not descend. > > -- Thomas Kinsella > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 18:29:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Fw: Compuserve MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to all who have contacted with good will and similar stories of > difficulty with internet service providers. I know this isn't to do with > *poetry* but it is to do with how we talk to each other and will become > increasingly relevant to all of us I believe. So one last - I hope - > chapter. > > As I understand it Compuserve still claim not to understand what I want and > say they are keeping my account open. Two days ago, the amount of email > finally choked my mail box but until then it seemed I wasnt replying to > people. Meanwhile they made no further attempt to correct the bug in the > system. So they were charging me for nothing. > > My card co just phoned. They had read through all the correspondence and > had no trouble saying that they support me. They are dishonouring the > deductions previously made - i.e. taking the money back - and writing to > the HQ of Compuserve. So it can be done if you don't let them steam-roller you.... L > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:46:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: more exercise Comments: To: layne@sonic.net In-Reply-To: <3420F95C.2735@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:50 AM +0000 9/18/97, Layne Russell wrote: >Hugh Steinberg wrote: >> >> I tend to agree with both sides in this debate, that exercises are useful >> and can lead to good or even great poems, and that poetry at heart is >> mysterious, without recipes, maps or a decent set of directions, driven by >> intuition, wisdom, and sweat. >> >> But amidst the handwringing, I'd like to point that poetry is also, well, >> fun, and that a poem can be pleasurable no matter what its origins. >> >> Hugh Steinberg > >bravo! > >Layne i 2nd that m-ocean. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:49:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Chain In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 1:55 PM -0400 9/18/97, David Kellogg wrote: >I also must say a good word about this issue. My own little contribution >to it is nothing, outclassed on page after exciting page. Bizarrely, mine >wasn't the only piece composed through a reading of Descartes's _Discourse >on Method_. (!) > >Everyone subscribe! > >Cheers, >David ditto. it's humbling to be included w/ so much coolness. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 15:21:01 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: Chain rxn In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable p. durgin asks (of Chain): > I guess I must have missed it initially > But how does one subscribe? Info anyone? I don't have a copy to hand (I'm, as we say, "at work"), but a quick look into my magickal mirror, oops, I mean the poetics archive (@ http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html), reveals the following from Juliana Spahr : $20 for two issues $12 for Chain / 5 on different languages $10 for Chain / 4 on process and procedures Free copy of the Lab Book upon request with a two issue subscription as long as supplies last. Email orders are accepted. Chain 3029 Lowrey Avenue, no. A-1102 Honolulu, HI 96822 Please make checks payable to Chain. hey!! it's a great periodical, & they need the kale. btw, the Lab Book is very damn'd nice to have in the bargain=97good work by yr fellows & some fellow listees. Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:40:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - This is for you. This is working its way to you, this is coming to you, in spite of everyone. This is for you, and you alone. This is private; you'll understand and no one else will. I've given up my face. I have no face any more. I have wood, stone, and cotton. I sparkle. I am fierce, beneath cotton, stone, and wood. This is the gift I can give you. This is for you. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 10:31:21 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wystan Curnow Organization: University of Auckland Subject: Re: living exercises In-Reply-To: <3420B3D9.73F0@bc.sympatico.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As On Kawara is wont to say, I am still alive, and on the List, Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 17:14:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Re: living exercises In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And the defunct Wystan was wont to say he would be very, very angry to meet another with his name. "...abhorred in the Heav'ns are all self-proclaimed poets who, to wow an audience, utter some resonant lie." --Wystan, "Ode to Terminus" Mark Baker On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, Wystan Curnow wrote: > As On Kawara is wont to say, I am still alive, > and on the List, > Wystan > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Sep 1997 21:01:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:40 PM -0400 9/18/97, Alan Jen Sondheim wrote: >- > > > > >This is for you. >This is working its way to you, this is coming to you, in spite of >everyone. >This is for you, and you alone. This is private; you'll understand and no >one else will. >I've given up my face. I have no face any more. >I have wood, stone, and cotton. I sparkle. I am fierce, beneath >cotton, stone, and wood. >This is the gift I can give you. >This is for you. oo lala, alan, yr so cool ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 05:17:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: writing exercises of the glib & laureled MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hmm, I do think there may be a wisp of AG's ghost wherever exclamation points wax ecstatic, but what I keep hearing, unfortunately, is "A Queen's life is hard" set to music, something like Gilbert & Sullivan's "A Policeman's Lot is Not a Happy One." Rachel Gwyn McVay wrote: > > >>>It was an eerie vision! The Land of the Lion! > Each clear creature, crystal bright, > Honey-lit with lion-light, > All dreaming together the Dream of the Lion. > > Rachel, except for the hackneyed b/b rhyme, are you quite positive this > isn't late Ginsberg? No, he wouldn't have used "eerie." And all of this > would have been run up in one line. Never mind. > > Gwyn, musing ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 08:52:40 -500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is <_jr@amanue.amanue.com> From: Jim Rosenberg Subject: Re: Writing experiments In-Reply-To: <199709161337.JAA28969@csu-e.csuohio.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Robert Drake: > mention of Oulipo reminds me to mention a newish book i picked > up last week in toronto: _Oulipo Laboratoy_ (Atlas Press, London > 1995) featuring works by Queneau, Calvino, Fournel, Berge, Jouet > & Mathews... The most amazing Oulipo resource I know of is a *THREE VOLUME* _La Bibliotheque Oulipienne_ [apologies for omitted accents ...]. The publisher is Seghers, I'm showing an ISBN of 2-232-10308-0 for volume 1. This is in French, of course. For anyone truly interested in Oulipo, these volumes are a must-have. I'm not sure where one orders such things, I just found them sitting on the shelf the last time I was at a bookstore in Paris. (Amazon.com doesn't seem to have them; I just tried that ISBN at Amazon.com and came up empty.) Pierre? --- Jim Rosenberg http://www.well.com/user/jer/ CIS: 71515,124 WELL: jer Internet: jr@amanue.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 11:33:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "aldon l. nielsen" To: poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: in which will be found what is set forth therein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.7 1. September 16 Village Voice has a letter from JACKSON MACLOW responding to Kyle Gann's memorial to Conlon Nancarrow, published the preceding week. In answer to MacLow's question, Gann reports that Nancarrow was a friend of George Oppen's in Mexico -- There's a friendship I'd like to read more about -- Anybody have any info.? 2. Same issue includes notice of a new Lou Harrison CD that includes poetry along with his compositions in music. The CD is titled _Rapunzel and Other Works, and has been released by New Albion. The poems on the recording are read by Harrison. 3. SAME issue also includes first review I've seen of Don DeLillo's BIG new novel -- since I've managed to get through MASON & DIXON, I'll try to fit this one into my luggage soon. 4. -- Re: That PBS showing of THE LIFE AND TIMES OF AG -- Listophiles should be alerted to the fact that PBS is airing a much truncated version of Jerry Aronson's film -- the longer version is available on video tape at SOME rental outlets and stores -- has some unusual footage, including Ginsberg family home movies -- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:59:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Noncarrow and Oppen Yes I too would love to hear more about Noncarrow and Oppen etc. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 17:40:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Noncarrow and Oppen Don't think there's that much to be known. They were friends while Oppen was in Mexico City-- however after Oppen went back to the states he didn't keep in touch w/ Noncarrow. I have a memory of reading somewhere that Nancarrow was puzzled &/or hurt by this-- but likely it was a reflection of Oppen's feeling about his time there generally, his need to put all that behind him. He didn't even pick up Spanish, unsusual for a stay of that length. Again, to qualify-- this also possibly a reflection of his reasons for being there-- the political ostracism & other difficulties attended that. Rachel D or Peter Q if they're out there would have more to say of use than this "knowledge" I'm volunteering. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 16:48:00 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: polish poets From: IPFW::SIMON 19-SEP-1997 16:47:01.00 To: MX%"poetics@litserv.acsu.buffalo.edu" CC: SIMON Subj: polish poets Dear List, A student recently returned from a summer in Poland. He is on fire to read/know (fairly) contemporary Polish poetry/Polish poets. Other than the Nobel obvious, I confess ignorance. What's available in translation becomes crucial. Who/what do you recommend that's translated into either English or German? bckchannel to simon@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu thanks, beth simon ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:09:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Noncarrow and Oppen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not really aware of this friendship, although it's certainly not surprising. Is there any references that one could offer? There's nothing I recall in Mary Oppen's book about Nancarrow, although the years in exile aren't broached in too much depth there. I've found nothing (yet) in the working papers that suggests a freindship with or otherwise mentions Nancarrow, although it's fairly safe to say that the majority of Oppen's papers were produced after his return to the states (there are a few pages w/ Oppen's address in Mexico at the top, but even these provide little certainty re: dating or location, as it appears that he often used a given page as a kind of worksheet for thought, which he would return to, revise, etc. over often a period of years). As for Oppen & Mexico: Oppen's leaving Mexico and returning to poetry and to the States had very much to do with a kind of political dissatisfaction. As he puts it in the interview with Burt Hatlen and Tom Mandel: "Rome had recently burned, so there was no reason not to fiddle." Obviously, the party at that point offered little room for the kind of thing Oppen was concerned with in poetry, and he was very careful to keep the two relatively seperate. I'd be hesitant, however, to say that Oppen wanted to put everything in Mexico behind him. He does in the papers refer to some acquaintances and/or experiences from that period, and that he returned after-the-fact to some of his jottings from Mexico (they aren't really poems) suggests a desire to come to terms with that moment. I think Oppen's relative reticence about those years, in any case, had mostly to do with what he saw as their irrelevance to his poetry. His fondness for quoting Kenner's observation that it essentially took him "25 years to write the next poem" suggests that he saw some validity in the statement. He simply wasn't writing poetry, and so perhaps didn't see those years as essential to his development as a poet. On this latter, Tom Mandel might have some to say (see his letter in follwing the Hatlen/Mandel interview in "Man and Poet"). OK, apologies for being a bit off topic... Stephen Cope >Don't think there's that much to be known. They were friends while Oppen was >in Mexico City-- however after Oppen went back to the states he didn't keep >in touch w/ Noncarrow. I have a memory of reading somewhere that Nancarrow >was puzzled &/or hurt by this-- but likely it was a reflection of Oppen's >feeling about his time there generally, his need to put all that behind him. >He didn't even pick up Spanish, unsusual for a stay of that length. Again, to >qualify-- this also possibly a reflection of his reasons for being there-- >the political ostracism & other difficulties attended that. Rachel D or Peter >Q if they're out there would have more to say of use than this "knowledge" >I'm volunteering. > >--Rod ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 00:12:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Oppen, Nancarrow, Mexico Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Stephen, Rachel would know much more about all this than I do. But. George and Mary used to speak of Nancarrow as a friend (whereas, Fred Cody, who founded the bookstore in Berkeley, was simply a guy they shared a ride with as they returned to the US from Mexico City). Mary once told me that they left for Mexico as a direct result (and perhaps the same week as) the arrest of the Rosenbergs. George was not able to return to the US, as I understand it, until his sister June was able to clear it with the state department that they would not be arrested on their return. June was a major political donor for many decades, one of the major contributors to Mondale, for example. (All this has a very different tone these days of course. And June was a connected Democrat who got this done during a Republican presidency.) I very much got the impression that neither George or Mary particularly cared for Mexico City, certainly never thought of it as home, and very much had a sense of "exile" the entire time they were there. Ron --------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 18:09:13 -0700 From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: Noncarrow and Oppen I'm not really aware of this friendship, although it's certainly not surprising. Is there any references that one could offer? There's nothing I recall in Mary Oppen's book about Nancarrow, although the years in exile aren't broached in too much depth there. I've found nothing (yet) in the working papers that suggests a freindship with or otherwise mentions Nancarrow, although it's fairly safe to say that the majority of Oppen's papers were produced after his return to the states (there are a few pages w/ Oppen's address in Mexico at the top, but even these provide little certainty re: dating or location, as it appears that he often used a given page as a kind of worksheet for thought, which he would return to, revise, etc. over often a period of years). As for Oppen & Mexico: Oppen's leaving Mexico and returning to poetry and to the States had very much to do with a kind of political dissatisfaction. As he puts it in the interview with Burt Hatlen and Tom Mandel: "Rome had recently burned, so there was no reason not to fiddle." Obviously, the party at that point offered little room for the kind of thing Oppen was concerned with in poetry, and he was very careful to keep the two relatively seperate. I'd be hesitant, however, to say that Oppen wanted to put everything in Mexico behind him. He does in the papers refer to some acquaintances and/or experiences from that period, and that he returned after-the-fact to some of his jottings from Mexico (they aren't really poems) suggests a desire to come to terms with that moment. I think Oppen's relative reticence about those years, in any case, had mostly to do with what he saw as their irrelevance to his poetry. His fondness for quoting Kenner's observation that it essentially took him "25 years to write the next poem" suggests that he saw some validity in the statement. He simply wasn't writing poetry, and so perhaps didn't see those years as essential to his development as a poet. On this latter, Tom Mandel might have some to say (see his letter in follwing the Hatlen/Mandel interview in "Man and Poet"). OK, apologies for being a bit off topic... Stephen Cope >Don't think there's that much to be known. They were friends while Oppen was >in Mexico City-- however after Oppen went back to the states he didn't keep >in touch w/ Noncarrow. I have a memory of reading somewhere that Nancarrow >was puzzled &/or hurt by this-- but likely it was a reflection of Oppen's >feeling about his time there generally, his need to put all that behind him. >He didn't even pick up Spanish, unsusual for a stay of that length. Again, to >qualify-- this also possibly a reflection of his reasons for being there-- >the political ostracism & other difficulties attended that. Rachel D or Peter >Q if they're out there would have more to say of use than this "knowledge" >I'm volunteering. > >--Rod ------------------------------ End of POETICS Digest - 18 Sep 1997 to 19 Sep 1997 ************************************************** ------End forward message--------------------------- Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 13:31:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Nancarrow/Oppen: great companions or mere pals? In-Reply-To: <18332866231827@popmail.lmu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aldon Nielsen wrote: >1. September 16 Village Voice has a letter from JACKSON MACLOW responding >to Kyle Gann's memorial to Conlon Nancarrow, published the preceding week. >In answer to MacLow's question, Gann reports that Nancarrow was a friend of >George Oppen's in Mexico -- There's a friendship I'd like to read more >about -- Anybody have any info.? There is a brief mention in the biographical section of Gann's very good (and probably not too technical for non-musicians) book on Nancarrow's music of Oppen supplying composer/radio producer Charles Amirkhanian with Nancarrow's telephone number but that's it. I cant' find my copy right now, but I'm pretty sure that I would have noticed a mention of Nancarrow in Mary Oppen's memoir. Nancarrow and the Oppens certainly shared similar politics (Nancarrow left the States for Mexico after fighting in the Abraham Lincoln Brigades during the Spanish Civil War - he couldn't get a passport and was concerned about his leftist leanings causing trouble if he stayed in the US). Nancarrow was pretty private about most things, I doubt there'll be more published on this from the music world, but I'll check with Kyle & see if he has any other info. >3. SAME issue also includes first review I've seen of Don DeLillo's BIG >new novel -- since I've managed to get through MASON & DIXON, I'll try to >fit this one into my luggage soon. Yeah, & they call DeLillo something like the greatest living writer of sentences. If I hadn't read the headline, I'd have thought the complete Alphabet had been published without Ron announcing it to the poetics list. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 10:46:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Oppen/Nancarrow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't know if this information is useful to scholars/poets, but sometime in the late eighties, after George died, I was visiting Mary Oppen in Berkeley (actually Albany), and we had lunch with Nancarrow and his wife who had come back to scout out a school for a child of theirs, a daughter I believe. The memory is a bit hazy, and my notes on the visit are buried somewhere. At the time, I had neither heard of him or his music, and later, after our lunch, Mary played some of his extraordinary music for me. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:58:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As always, I await some other Seattleite to start giving fashion reports, attendance records, etc. on the reading scene in Seattle (for that matter what happened to Steven Carll's often entertaining or informative reports on SF readings), but I do want to briefly say that Subtext's Thursday reading was really great. David Bromige & Robin Blaser were in fine form, David reading all previously unpublished (in paper form, at least, one or two pieces having been posted to this here list) work & Robin read recent work as well as from the new Dante piece. I was wondering, though, and thought to bring it up to this august group, does anyone know if there's any truth to the rumor I overheard this weekend that Wallace Stevens did NOT write the poems published under his name.. That, rather, his wife wrote them, and that was one of the reasons why guests at the Stevens' home were never introduced to her? Any feminist critics that have any insights on this? Is Peter Quartermain still reading the list? For that matter, when I was up in Vancouver a week ago or so, I didn't look at the vile-sounding "reader's edition" of Joyce's Ulysses, those it was prominently displayed in the window of Duthie's downtown. This book won't be available in the US til some time in 1998. Could some Canadian (is it available in the UK yet?) confirm (or deny) that this text does not end with "Yes I said Yes I will Yes" but rather adds the words "said Molly before turning over and falling into a dreamless sleep." Just thought I should check on these things. Not being an active part of an academic community, I sometimes miss out on the current research til it's on NPR or something. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:41:38 -0400 Reply-To: potepoet@home.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: Potes & Poets Press Inc Subject: concerning mail art Comments: To: spoon-announcements@jefferson.village.virginia.edu, cap-l@tc.umn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E66C9B3FE4D6E2B4B479377D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E66C9B3FE4D6E2B4B479377D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------E66C9B3FE4D6E2B4B479377D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mailhub1.home.com ([24.0.0.26]) by ha1.rdc1.ct.home.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA4362 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:40:43 -0700 Received: from mx1.home.com ([24.0.0.31]) by mailhub1.home.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with ESMTP id AAA18032 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:35:15 -0700 Received: from mail.adinet.com.uy (mail.adinet.com.uy [206.99.44.245]) by mx1.home.com (8.8.5/8.8.5-AtHome) with ESMTP id IAA24583 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:40:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from default (r44-17.adinet.com.uy [206.99.44.17]) by mail.adinet.com.uy with SMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id MAA19268 for ; Sat, 20 Sep 1997 12:44:50 -0300 (SAT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970921021018.0067c434@adinet.com.uy> X-Sender: clepadin@adinet.com.uy (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 23:10:18 -0300 To: potepoet@home.com From: Clemente Padin Thank you, Peter. If you can please, pass on this call for submission in Mail art, thanks in advance: STOP Freedom / Diversity / Pluralism in the creation and teaching of Art During many years in Latinoamerican and Chile the art has tolerated the manipulation of totalitarian ideologies and models of production that no agreed with inherent freedom of the creation and artistic teaching. We are asking your participation sending critical artworks against cultural politics that impose only models of art for to legitimaze the stablishment, i. e.,in order to satisfy the ideological neccesities of maintaining an ideal world without contradictions, burying under a cover of banalized signs the injust and inhuman social reality. Any medium, no returns, no jury. Exhibition in February=B498 at the Art= Dept. of the University of Chile.=20 Deadline : 30th January, 1998 Send to : Art Dept.,University of Chile Dr. Humberto Nilo Saavedra Calama Nro. 8435 La Cisterna, Santiago CHILE ------------------------------------------------------------------ Fraternal greetings,=20 Clemente Padin C.Correo Central 1211 11000 Montevideo URUGUAY Fax (598) 2 95 94 17 --------------E66C9B3FE4D6E2B4B479377D-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 17:10:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 20 Sep 1997, Herb Levy wrote: > For that matter, when I was up in Vancouver a week ago or so, I didn't look > at the vile-sounding "reader's edition" of Joyce's Ulysses, those it was > prominently displayed in the window of Duthie's downtown. This book won't > be available in the US til some time in 1998. Could some Canadian (is it > available in the UK yet?) confirm (or deny) that this text does not end > with "Yes I said Yes I will Yes" but rather adds the words "said Molly > before turning over and falling into a dreamless sleep." > The Sept. 25 issue of New York Review has an article about this Ulysses. although taken to task on a number of other emendations, nowhere is mention made of the instance you cite above. Hard to figure out what Danis Rose was up to in his "reader's edition" with some of his changes, but then I'm always suspicious of what the NYR has to say. John Kidd, the author of the review, is founding director of the James Joyce Research Centre at Boston Univ. I'm no Joyce scholar, so I don't know if he's nitpicking, adverse to new "readings," or right on the mark. I'm a big help, aren't I? best, Steven __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 19:06:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors everything i hear about the new "reader's edition" of the joyce is horrible--and virtually everyone, i think, who are members of the societry for textual scholarship would concur with this. no, never mind "virtually"; make that simply "everyone." burt kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 15:15:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ashton Subject: Gertrude Stein's Rose Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear subscribers, I know that Stein's famous line "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose" first appeared in "Sacred Emily" (1913) and cropped up in later works as well. Unfortunately, I have no easy way to scan through my Stein books for the later uses of the line & would like to be able to get to them more easily. I would be grateful if anyone knows offhand (without troubling to search, that is) which works contain it, apart from _The World Is Round_, of which I am already aware. I am interested not just in uses of the line in literary texts, but in Stein's own explications of it in lectures and essays or either of the autobiographys. (I am aware of her discussions in _Lectures in America_ and _Narration_, so I don't need those references.) Editions & page numbers, or even approximate locations within chapters would be extremely useful. Also, I remember seeing reproduced in some edition either of Stein's work or about her a graphic image of the rose around which the line made a circle. I think this was something she had printed up for stationery. If anyone knows of any text where I could find this image, I'd be grateful for that as well. Please copy any replies to me via backchannel. Many thanks in advance. Jennifer Ashton Johns Hopkins University ashto_j@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 02:37:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Herb Levy writes, > . . . . . does anyone know if there's any truth to the rumor I > overheard this weekend that Wallace Stevens did NOT write the poems > published under his name.. That, rather, his wife wrote them, and > that was one of the reasons why guests at the Stevens' home were > never introduced to her? such an allegation, if true, would make small fry of recent unplesantnesses in the plagarism department, seems. Had certainly never heard of this -- but maybe I'd be the last to know. The idea, anyway, finds nice resonance in the plot of Kieslawski's film BLUE (in which a famous modernist-ish [well, neo-romantic] composer's work was, evidently, done by his wife -- or at least that's one reading of the story). I'll admit to considerable scepticism re: this scandalous rumor; but whether or not it were true anent Wally, I a little bit wonder how well known -- and for how long -- this has been extant qua rumor. Even wonder if Kieslawski's plot were possibly based on the Stevens scandal as such (if such it be ???). await further word from the wise, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 09:23:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: Oppen's years away Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" SC writes that... "Oppen's ...fondness for quoting Kenner's observation that it essentially took him "25 years to write the next poem" suggests that he saw some validity in the statement. He simply wasn't writing poetry, and so perhaps didn't see those years as essential to his development as a poet." I don't think either of these statements is correct, exactly. It's my understanding (but am I write?) that Oppen was writing -- perhaps not much, but definitely writing -- tho not publishing. And if you have no intention/prospect of publishing, why then perhaps you do write less. As to validity in Kenner's remark, lets first consider the remark: to me it's a perfect example of a conservative sew-up of a radical rip, and it's equally an example of 2d-order (i.e. critical) thinking. Something happened, and Kenner's remark essentially makes that something go away! Hagiography would be another rubric under which to range the remark. *My* interpretation of how this works (and given the above it has no particular privilege over Kenner or the notion that Oppen found "validity" in Kenner's words), my opinion is that Oppen was very troubled by the 25 years during which he'd abandoned his vocation. Especially was he troubled, because he wrote with such *effect* when he returned to poetry, and stimulated response too. I don't much remember the interview Burt and I did with George, except that I asked him straightforwardly what it said about poetry and his relation to it, and what it said *to* poetry, that he'd left it aside all those years. To this he responded, if I remember right, by quoting Kenner (on himself!). It was not responsive. It's *very* worth noting that Oppen was *not* in great shape mentally by the time of this interview. There was an immediately sensible limit to the attention he could give our questions. I knew George and Mary pretty well for some years from the late seventies on. I well remember Mary taking me aside to wish that I'd known George when he was himself. Much of George's conversation was fascinating, and he was very alive in the present tense. But attention to his own past often took the conversation into an area of repeated remarks and stories. His affirmation of Kenner's stitching should surely be seen in that light too. I did and still do think Oppen's decades away from poetry are significant. I see no reason simply to explain them away. I'd be more interested in what anybody thinks the relation might be between that abandonment and the force of his return. Tom Tom Mandel tmandel@screenporch.com ******************************************************** Screen Porch * http://screenporch.com 4031 University Dr. Suite 200 * vox: 703-934-2029 Fairfax, VA 22030-3409 * fax: 202-364-5349 ******************************************************** Join the Caucus Conversation ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 11:45:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: Oppen's years away In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970921092327.006b58f0@pop.cais.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 21 Sep 1997, Tom Mandel wrote: > I did and still do think Oppen's decades away from poetry are > significant. I see no reason simply to explain them away. I'd > be more interested in what anybody thinks the relation might be > between that abandonment and the force of his return. > Speaking generally about a poet who might abandon and then return rather than Oppen specifically: some poets work in bursts of activity followed by long periods of quiet. Perhaps this is to fill up the well; perhaps boredom; perhaps other interests; perhaps the demands of making a living; perhaps illnesses; perhaps family problems and illnesses -- the list is, of course, endless.. As for the force of return: exhiliration from new praxes. But this list is endless, too. in particular, Steven __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 10:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: writing about writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Poetics Folks: putting together a small packet for my cre wri class of what i'm loosely calling "writing about writing" / would greatly appreciate any suggestions for good samples (poems, stories), ie, Stevens' "Of Modern Poetry" / 20th century mostly / the shorter the better thanks for responses bill marsh ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 14:01:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stacie Slotnick Subject: Re: writing about writing MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Bill: you might want to look at Grace Paley's story "A Conversation with My Father." The story is a good example of reader-based writing- Paley's narrator revises the story that she is telling several times for the sake of the "audience"- that is, the "father" character of the story. It's a great example of the work of revision, as well as an interesting way to look at the idea of "audience." Stacie S. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 12:38:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: writing about writing In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970921102403.00706d54@nunic.nu.edu> from "William Marsh" at Sep 21, 97 10:24:03 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hi there bill! > putting together a small packet for my cre wri class of what i'm loosely > calling "writing about writing" / would greatly appreciate any suggestions > for good samples (poems, stories), ie, Stevens' "Of Modern Poetry" / 20th > century mostly / the shorter the better bpNichol! (Everything!)) Wordsworth! "Tintern Abbey" (are you going to anthologize it by nation, genre, etc. oh this is too much!! i wld put _Four Quartets_ there. and then go to the sapphires in the mud. and then next go to 'and the fire & the rose are one,' and ask: are they? lemme know what you do, bill! c.! ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 16:18:42 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: writing about writing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Marsh wrote: > > Poetics Folks: > > putting together a small packet for my cre wri class of what i'm loosely > calling "writing about writing" / would greatly appreciate any suggestions > for good samples (poems, stories), ie, Stevens' "Of Modern Poetry" / 20th > century mostly / the shorter the better > > thanks for responses > > bill marsh You might want to include selections from Jack Spicer's _The Heads of the Town up to the Aether_ and _After Lorca_, both in _The Collected Books of Jack Spicer_, edited by Robin Blaser [Black Sparrow]. And from _Writing from the New Coast: Technique_ [o*blek #12]. Many good, short pieces in these sources. Daniel Zimmerman Middlesex County College Edison, NJ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 17:21:32 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Organization: University of Alabama English Dept. Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT herb levy, i have not heard the rumour that stevens' wife wrote the poems published under his name -- but it is far-fetched at best, according to everything i have read about what people know of his composition processes, conversations he had with people, etc. another resonance of the who-was-shakespeare issue, perhaps? -- or of credible cases in which people central to a writer's productions were not acknowledged in the published works. lisa s. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 00:01:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steven Marks wrote <> Carl Rakosi read in London a few days ago. If I heard him aright and I think I did, he said something intriguing re his period of silence - _I was trying not to read poetry because it made me want to write poetry_ L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:54:27 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors In-Reply-To: <1B369551C00@english.as.ua.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wallace Stevens wife modeled the figure of liberty which appears on the obverse of a coin, I'm not sure if it was the pre roosevelt dime or what, maybe the buffalo nickel. Stevens also said something along the lines of "money is a kind of poetry." but I always thought that it was John Ashbery who had written all of Wallace Stevens' poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:05:37 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: NEW Davidson, Debord, Fraser, Ginsberg, Levy &&& @ Bridge Street In-Reply-To: <970915013804_403962834@emout14.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rod, two additions to the order I emailed in yesterday: The Clash, by Walter LaFeber, Norton (history of US-Japan relations) and, I think there is supposed to be a collected short stories of Ward Just (not The Congressman Who loved Flaubert but something later and more extensive) -- if such exists, please add that to the order. ad astra, Simon ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 18:56:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors In-Reply-To: <1B369551C00@english.as.ua.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >herb levy, > >i have not heard the rumour that stevens' wife wrote the poems >published under his name -- Maybe Herb was half-remembering that Mrs Wilson was really presidenting the USA while Wilson was ill, or that that horrible skinny woman was running it when Reagan was foirgetting stuff. And then naturally, confusing poets with presidents (and who wouldnt?), mixed them up with Stevens. I am not forgetting, me, no, that there is a chance that David Bromige wrote a lot of the poems after Harmonium. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 21:34:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: Re: Your message to POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:35:20 > >Your message to POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU has been >forwarded to the "list owners" (the people who manage the POETICS list). >If you wanted to reach a human being, you used the correct procedure and >you can ignore the remainder of this message. If you were trying to send >a command for the computer to execute, please read on. My message concerned Red Slider, and his request to me (via another list he and I are on) to lend him support in his attempt to find reinstatement on the Poetics List, from which he has been, in his own term, "86'd", for causes he cannot determine. I care both because Red strikes me as a likeable guy worth having with us, & also because I want to know what he did or didnt do to earn a banishment I myself wish to avoid. Because Red included the correspondence from the Buffalo end with his message, I know that he was being told that, lacking further authentication of either his name or his e-ddress,the Poetics List could not continue his membership. I e-mailed the List e-ddress I had for such matters, & perhaps will receive a human response eventually. Meanwhile, though, I forward this one, because of the chilling, 1984-ish tone of the sentence in the following para, the sentence which begins, "Naturally..." and contains the info that if you write in about someone else's concerns with leaving the List, you may well be eliminated from it yourself. So, if you dont hear from me again, you'll leastwise know down which plughole I went. Meanwhile, I await clarification of the murky Red Slider 86'd issue--backchannel will do fine. > >The "listname-request" convention originated on the Internet a long time >ago. At the time, lists were always managed manually, and this address >was defined as an alias for the person(s) in charge of the mailing list. >You would write to the "listname-request" address to ask for information >about the list, ask to be added to the list, make suggestions about the >contents and policy, etc. Because this address was always a human being, >people knew and expected to be talking to a human being, not to a >computer. Unfortunately, some recent list management packages screen >incoming messages to the "listname-request" address and attempt to >determine whether they are requests to join or leave the list. They look >for words such as "subscribe", "add", "leave", "off", and so on. If they >decide your message is a request to join or leave the list, they update >the list automatically; otherwise, they forward the message to the list >owners. Naturally, this means that if you write to the list owners about >someone else's unsuccessful attempts to leave the list, you stand good >chances of being automatically removed from the list, whereas the list >owners will never receive your message. No one really benefits from this. >There is no reliable mechanism to contact a human being for assistance, >and you can never be sure whether your request will be interpreted as a >command or as a message to the list owners. This is why LISTSERV uses two >separate addresses, one for the people in charge of the list and one for >the computer that runs it. This way you always know what will happen, >especially if you are writing in a language other than English. > >In any case, if your message was a LISTSERV command, you should now >resend it to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. The list owners know >that you have received this message and may assume that you will resend >the command on your own. You will find instructions for the most common >administrative requests below. > >********************* >* TO LEAVE THE LIST * >********************* > >Write to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and, in the text of your >message (not the subject line), write: SIGNOFF POETICS > >******************** >* TO JOIN THE LIST * >******************** > >Write to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and, in the text of your >message (not the subject line), write: SUBSCRIBE POETICS > >************************ >* FOR MORE INFORMATION * >************************ > >Write to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and, in the text of your >message (not the subject line), write: "HELP" or "INFO" (without the >quotes). HELP will give you a short help message and INFO a list of the >documents you can order. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 20:59:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: subtext w/ Bromige & Blaser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Although I'm not much of a Boswell, I thought I'd second Herb Levy's note on how excellent this month's Subtext reading at the Speakeasy here in Seattle was. OK, a brief report... The backroom of the Speakeasy Cafe in the Belltown district holds 50-60 people (or so I guess) and once again seemed at capacity this month. Nowadays there's a stage set up one end of the room to accomodate the ever more regular performances that take place there, theatrical and otherwise. (In June there was a musical show on the Titanic in the middle of its run on this stage. So when Leslie Scalapino read here during that month she shared the stage with a few minor set pieces, little background paintings of icebergs and the Doomed Ship, etc.) Anyhow... David Bromige was the first reader. This was highly entertaining, as many of the listfolk here would suspect. He opened with the amusing "T is for Tethered," and followed up with a material from a longer sequence of new work. He also included a bit from the recent David B./David I. thread here on POETICS. As I recall, he was also sporting a pair of red-rimmed glasses, which I had never seen the likes of before. I confess this is probably the best I can do in the way of a fashion report on the event. I was in conversation in my seat with a friend during the intermission, so I did not have the usual chance to note more completely who was in attendance, although the most of the usual attendees seemed to be there: Herb Levy, Nico Vassilakis, John & Roberta Olson, Bryant Mason, Ezra Mark, Priscilla Long, Reuben Radding. Other folks usually in attendance that I may have missed include Laynie Brown, Robert Mittenthal, and Steven Shaviro. Plenty of other noteable and interesting folks as well, I'm sure, whose faces I don't know yet. Robin Blaser read during the second half largely from a longer piece "Imagintion 14," although, as Herb mentioned, he included a segment from an apparently very long piece on Dante he is working on. Midway through the reading the activity increased in the pool club directly upstairs. This is a regular occurance. As the second half of the evening progresses the reading becomes punctuated by the occassional taps of cue sticks emanating from the ceiling, along with the more dramatic bonk of billiard ball and subsequently noisy roll. Sometimes music from upstairs or the Speakeasy frontroom starts to creep in on the proceedings. Thankfully, these nagging phenomena weren't as pronounced as they have been in some past months. The man I was talking with during the intermission had studied under Blaser at Simon Fraser University and had commented to me that Blaser had the sort of voice that could make a reading out of a phonebook fascinating. Indeed his reading seemed to confirm this. The man exudes charm. That's the basics of the evening. A dozen or so folks, myself included, also had the chance to take part in two workshop sessions with David Bromige on Friday evening and Saturday afternoon. This took place an old 2-story elementary school that has been converted into a community center: hardwood floors, old style classrooms and blackboards, creaking chairs. Time well spent for all involved of course. The value, purpose, and applicability of writing exercises discussed and examined in action. Fruitful conversation all around. (This is not too specific, I know.) DB also provided a nice stack of photocopies of material from a variety of writers with whom I, at least, was not familiar. Still enjoying that quite a bit. Thanks again, David! Next month at Subtext features Ezra Mark and Tom Raworth. This should also warrant some reportage, no doubt. In the meantime... Salut-- BC ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:39:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Argentine Spanish? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have two questions concerning Argentinian Spanish 1) What is a jardine eléctrico? 2) What is Platón? Backchannel if you can help. Thanks, RL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:12:31 -0700 Reply-To: Spencer Selby Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: Exp Mag List # 50 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII List of Experimental Poetry/Art Magazines P.O. Box 590095 San Francisco CA 94159 U.S. MAGAZINES ### ABACUS, POTEPOETZINE, Peter Ganick, potepoet@home.com, 181 Edgemont Ave, Elmwood CT 06110 ### AERIAL, Rod Smith, Box 25642, Wash D.C. 20007 ### AMERICAN BOOK REVIEW, Illinois St Univ. Campus Box 4241, Normal IL 61790 ### AMERICAN LETTERS AND COMMENTARY, Jeanne Beaumont, Anna Rabinowitz, 850 Park Ave Suite 5B, NY NY 10021 ### ANGLE, Brian Lucas, 253 Rose St, San Francisco CA 94102 ### ANT,ANT,ANT,ANT,ANT, Box 16177, Oakland CA 94610 ### ANTENYM, Steve Carll, 106 Fair Oaks #1, San Francisco CA 94110 ### ARRAS, Brian Kim Stefans, 398 Manhattan Ave. Apt 2L, Brooklyn NY 11211 ### ARSHILE, Mark Salerno, Box 3749, L.A. CA 90078 ### BIG ALLIS, Melanie Neilson, 11 Scholes St, Brooklyn NY 11206 ### BULLHEAD, Joe Napora, 2205 Moore St, Ashland KY 41101 ### BURL, David Baptiste Chirot, 2542 N. Farwell #5, Milwaukee WI 53211 ### CHAIN, Juliana Spahr, Dept of English, Univ of Hawaii-Manoa, 1733 Donaghho Rd, Honolulu HI 96822 ### CLWN WR, Box 2165, Church St Station, NY NY 10008 ### COLUMBIA POETRY REVIEW, English Dept of Columbia College, 600 South Michigan Ave, Chicago IL 60605 ### CONJUNCTIONS, 33 W. 9th St., NY NY 10011 ### CRAYON, Andrew Levy, c/o NYU, SCE/ADSD, 50 West 4th St, 225 Shimkin Hall, New York NY 10012 ### CROSS-CULTURAL POETICS, Mark Nowak, College of St Catherine, 601 25 Ave S., Minneapolis MN 55454 ### DENVER QUARTERLY, Dept of English, U. of Denver, Denver CO 80208 ### DIRIGIBLE, David Todd, 101 Cottage St, New Haven CT 06511 ### DISPLACE, KIOSK, English Dept., SUNY at Buffalo, Buffalo NY 14260 ### DISTURBED GUILLOTINE, Fredrik Hausmann, Box 14871, University Station, Minneapolis MN 55414 ### DRIVER'S SIDE AIRBAG, Box 25760, Los Angeles CA 90025 ### DROP FORGE, 315 1/2 Perkins Place, Bozeman MT 59715 ### ELECTRONIC POETRY CENTER (including RIF/T Magazine), Loss Glazier, http://writing.upenn.edu/epc ### ETCETERA, Mindi Englart, Box 8543, New Haven CT, 06531 ### EXILE, Gary Sullivan, 26 Vandam St, New York NY 10013 ### EXPERIODICIST, Jake Berry, Box 3112, Florence AL 35630, NinthLab@aol.com ### FAR GONE, Box 43745, Lafayette LA 70504 ### FAUCHEUSE, vent@sirius.com ### FELL SWOOP, 3003 Ponce De Leon St, New Orleans LA 70119 ### FIRST INTENSITY, Lee Chapman, Box 665, Lawrence KS 66044 ### FIVE FINGERS REVIEW, Jaime Robles, Box 15426, San Francisco CA 94115 ### FOUND STREET, Larry Tomoyasu, 2260 S. Ferdinand Ave., Monterey Park CA 91754 ### GAS, Kevin Opstedal, 386 Madeline Court, Palo Alto CA 94306 ### GENERATOR, John Byrum, 3203 W. 14th St, Apt 13, Cleveland OH 44109 ### THE GERM, Macgregor Card & Andrew Maxwell, Box 8501, Santa Cruz CA 95061 ### GESTALTEN, Paul Silvia, 1207 W. 19th St, Lawrence KS 66046 ### GLOBAL MAIL, Grove City Factory Stores, Box 1309, Grove City PA 16127 ### HAMBONE, Nathaniel Mackey, 134 Hunolt St. Santa Cruz CA 95060 ### HAPPY GENIUS, Peter Landers, 34 Rose Circle, Hamlin NY 14464 ### HEAVEN BONE, Steven Hirsch, Box 486, Chester NY 10918 ### HOUSE ORGAN, Kenneth Warren, 1250 Belle Avenue, Lakewood OH 44107 ### HOUSE ORGAN MAGAZINE, N. Conquest, 507 D Ave, Coronado CA 92118 ### IDIOM, http://www.dnai.com/~idiom ### INDEFINITE SPACE, Marcia Arrieta, Box 40101, Pasadena CA 91114 ### THE INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF VISUAL POETRY, Charles Maden, 620 Baker St #3, San Francisco CA 94117 ### INTUIT, Don Hilla, 300 Vicksburg #5, San Francisco CA 94114 ### JUXTA, Jim Leftwich, 1512 Mountainside Ct, Charlottesville VA 22903, JUXTA43781@aol.com ### KEY SATCH(EL), Gian Lombardo, Box 363, Haydenville MA 01039 ### KOJA, 7314 21st Ave Apt 6E, Brooklyn NY 11204 ### LETTER, Dan Featherston, 3626 E. Blacklidge, Tuscon AZ 85716 ### LIGHTNING & ASH, 3010 Hennepin Ave S. #289, Mpls MN 55454 ### LILLIPUT REVIEW, Don Wentworth, 282 Main St, Pittsburgh PA 15201 ### LINGO, Box 184, West Stockbridge MA 01266 ### THE LITTLE MAGAZINE, English Dept, SUNY at Albany, Albany NY 12222 ### LOGODAEDALUS, Paul Weidenhoff & W.B. Keckler, Box 14193, Harrisburg PA 17104 ### LOST AND FOUND TIMES, John M. Bennett, 137 Leland Ave, Columbus OH 43214 ### LOWER LIMIT SPEECH, A.L. Nielsen, 3055 30th St Apt #2, Boulder CO 80301 ### LVNG, Michael & Peter O'Leary, Box 3865, Chcago IL 60654 ### LYNX, J. & W. Reichold, Box 1250 Gualala CA 95445 ### LYRIC&, Avery Burns, Box 640531, San Francisco CA 94164 ### MASS AVE., Daniel Bouchard, Box 230, Boston MA 02117 ### MEAT EPOCH, Gregory Vincent St Thomasino, 72 Orange St Apt 5B, Brooklyn Hts NY 11201 ### MEMBRANE, Nigel Hinshelwood, 4213 12th St NE, Washington D.C. 20017 ### MESECHABE, Dennis Formento, 1539 Crete St, New Orleans LA 70119 ### MIKE & DALE'S YOUNGER POETS, Michael Price, 766 Valencia St, San Francisco CA 94110 ### MISC. PROJ., Mark Prejsnar, 641 N. Highland Ave. NE #11, Atlanta GA 30306 ### NEDGE, Henry Gould, Janet Sullivan, Box 2321, Providence RI 02906 ### NEW AMERICAN WRITING, Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover, 369 Milino, Mill Valley CA 94941 ### NEXUS, Mark Owens, W016A Student Union, Wright St Univ, Dayton OH 45435 ### NO ROSES REVIEW, Carolyn Coo, 1322 N. Wicker Park, Chicago IL 60622 ### OPEN 24 HOURS, Buck Downs, Box 50376, Washington D.C. 20091 ### ORPHEUS GRID, John Noto, Box 420803, San Francisco CA 94142 ### O!!ZONE, Harry Burrus, 1266 Fountain View Dr. Houston TX 77057 ### PAPER RADIO, Box 425, Bremerton WA 98337 ### PARADOX, 36 E. Lorain St, Oberlin OH ### PAVEMENT SAW, David Baratier, 7 James St, Scotia NY 12302 ### PHOEBE, George Mason U., 4400 University Drive, Fairfax VA 22030 ### PHOTOSTATIC RETROFUTURIST, Lloyd Dunn, Box 8832, Iowa City, IA 52240 ### POETIC BRIEFS, Jefferson Hansen, 4055 Yosemite Ave South, St Louis Park MN 55416 ### POETRY NEW YORK, Box 3184, Church St Station, New York NY 10008 ### POETRY PROJECT NEWSLETTER, THE WORLD, St Mark's Church, 131 East 10th St, New York NY 10003 ### PO'FLYE, Michael Crye, Box 1026, Ashland KY 41105 ### PRIMARY WRITING, 2009 Belmont Rd. N.W., Apt 203, Wash D.C. 20009 ### PRIVATE ARTS, Box 10936, Chicago IL, 60610 ### PROLIFERATION, Mary Burger, 1253 Hampshire St, San Francisco CA 94110 ### PROSODIA, New College of California, 766 Valencia San Francisco CA 94110 ### REMAP, Todd Baron, 2860 Exposition Blvd #A, Santa Monica CA 90404 ### RHIZOME, Standard Schaefer, 366 S. Mentor #108, Pasadena CA 91106 ### RIBOT, Paul Vangelisti, Box 65798, Los Angeles CA 90065 ### SCORE, Crag Hill, 1015 NW Clifford St, Pullman WA 99163 ### SEMIAUTOMATIC, Patrick Mullins, Rt 1, Box 133, La Farge WI 54639 ### SEMIQUASI EDITIONS, A. di Michele, Box 55892, Fondren Station, Jackson MS 39296 ### SHATTERED WIG REVIEW, Rupert Wondolowski, 2407 N. Maryland #1, Baltimore MD 21218 ### SITUATION, Mark Wallace, 10402 Ewell Ave, Kensington MD 20895 ### 6IX, H. Thomas, 914 Leisz's Bridge Rd, Reading PA 19605 ### THE SPITTING IMAGE, Julia Solis, Box 20400 Tompkins Square Station, New York NY 10009 ### SPLIT SHIFT, Roger Taus, 2461 Santa Monica Blvd #C-122, Santa Monica CA 90404 ### SPOUT, John Colburn, 28 West Robie St, St Paul MN 55107 ### SUGAR MULE, M.L. Weber, sugarmule@hotmail.com ### SULFUR, Clayton Eshleman, English Dept, Eastern Michigan U., Ypsilanti MI 48197 ### SUPERFLUX, Leslie Davis, 629 Fillmore St, San Francisco CA 94117 ### SYN/AES/THE/TIC, Alex Cigale, Box 91, Canal St Station, New York NY 10013 ### SYNTACTICS, John Lowther, Box 1381, Decatur GA 30031 ### TALISMAN, Ed Foster, Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303 ### TAPROOT REVIEWS, Luigi Bob Drake, Box 585, Lakewood OH 44107 ### TENSETENDONED, M. B. Corbett, Box 155, Preston Park PA 18455 ### TEXTURE, Susan Smith Nash, 3760 Cedar Ridge Drive, Norman OK 73072 ### :THAT:, 1070 Easton Valley Rd, Easton NH 03580 ### THIS IS IMPORTANT, Box 336 Sprague River OR 97639 ### TIGHT, Ann Erickson, Box 1591, Guerneville CA 95446 ### TINFISH, Susan Schultz, 1422A Dominis St, Honolulu HI 96822 ### TORQUE, Liz Fodaski, 21 East 2nd St #14, N.Y. NY 10003 ### TRANSMOG, Ficus Strangulensis, Route 6 Box 138, Charleston WV 25311 ### UBU WEB VISUAL & CONCRETE POETRY, Kenneth Goldsmith, http:///www.ubuweb.com/vp ### VOLT, Gillian Conoley, Box 657, Corte Madera CA 94967 ### THE WASHINGTON REVIEW, Joe Ross, Box 50132, Washington D.C. 20091 ### WAY, Tom Beckett, 131 N. Pearl St, Kent OH 44240 ### WITZ, Christopher Reiner, Box 40012, Studio City CA 91614 ### WOODEN HEAD REVIEW, Mark Hartenbach, 240 Thompson Ave, East Liverpool OH 43920 ### YEFIEF, Ann Racuya-Robbins, Box 8505, Santa Fe NM 87504 ### ZYX, Arnold Skemer, 58-09 205th St, Bayside NY 11364 ### CANADIAN MAGAZINES ### THE ALTERRAN POETRY ASSEMBLAGE, David Dowker, http://home.ican.net/~alterra/ ### BOO, 1895 Commercial Dr, Box 116, Vancouver, B.C. V5N 4A6 ### BRITISH COLUMBIA MONTHLY, Gerry Gilbert, Box 48884, Station Bent., Vancouver, B. C. V7X 1A8 ### CABARET VERT, Beth Learn, Box 157 Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2S7 ### CAPILANO REVIEW, 2055 Purcell Way, North Vancouver, B.C. V7J 3H5 ### COLLECTIF REPARATION DE POESIE, Jean-Claude Gagnon, 359 rue Lavigueur # 1, Quebec, Quebec G1R 1B3 ### CRASH, Maggie Helwig, Box 562, Station P, Toronto Ontario M5S 2T1 ### DADABABY, Jaime Reid, 382 East 4th St, North Vancouver, B.C. V7L 1J2 ### FILLING STATION, Box 22135 Bankers Hall, Calgary AB T2P 4J5 ### HOLE, Louis Cabri & Rob Manery, L03-2556 East Hastings St, Vancouver B.C. V5K 1Z3 ### INDEX MAGAZINE, 4068 St Laurent, Box 42082, Montreal, Quebec H2W 2T3 ### OPEN LETTER, 499 Dufferin Ave, London, Ontario N6B 2A1 ### OVERSION, John Barlow, 1069 Bathurst St (3rd Floor) Toronto Ontario M5R 3G8 ### PUSH MACHINERY, Daniel Bradley, 30 Gloucester St #1005, Toronto, Ontario M4Y 1L6 ### RADDLE MOON, GIANTESS, Susan Clark, 2239 Stephens St, Vancouver B.C. V6K 3W5 ### RAMPIKE, Karl Jirgens, 81 Thorneloe Crescent, Sault Ste. 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Lehmus, Stenbocksv. 24, 02860 Esbo, Finland, Jlehmus@cute.fi ### CARPETAS EL PARAISO, Jose Luis Campal, Apt N. 6, 33980 Pola de Lavinia, Asturias, Spain ### CELACANTO, Marcelo Casarin, Quisquisacate 125, 5008 Cordoba, Argentina ### COMUNICARTE, Hugo Pontes, Caixa Postal 922, 37701-970 Pocos de Caldas, Brazil ### D'UN MOM ENCA, EL TRAPAS & IMAT, Apdo 9142, 08080 Barcelona, Spain ### DAS FROLICHE WOHNZIMMER, Fritz Widhalm, Fuhrmanngasse 1A/7, 1080 Wien Austria ### DIMENSAO, Guido Brilharinho, Caixa Postal 140, Uberaba 38001, Brazil ### DOC(K)S, Phillipe Castellin, 20 Rue Bonaparte, Ajaccio, France 2000 ### FULL, Ramon Salvo, Apdo 20033, 08080 Barcelona Spain ### GARATUJA, C. Postal 41, Bento Goncalves/RS 95700 Brazil, GOING DOWN SWINGING, Box 24, Clifton Hill, Victoria 3068, Australia ### GRAFFITI, Horacio Versi, Colonia 815, of. 105, Montevideo, Uruguay ### IF, Jean-Jacques Viton, 12 Place Castellane, 13006 Marseille, France ### INIA KELMA, Nueva, 4, 41770 Montellano Spain ### INTERARTE, Douglas Zunino, Odebrecht 97, 89021 Blumenau, SC, Brazil ### LA ISLA DE BARATARIA, Mario Sampaolesi, Avda. Rivadavia 4977 - 9 "C" , (1424) Buenos Aires, Argentina ### JOURNALECO, Caixa Postal 8622, Ag Itaigara, 41857-970 Salvador, Bahia, Brazil ### KARREE, http://huizen.dds.nl/~karree ### KARTA, Bartek Nowak, Spoldzielcza 3/39, 42-300 Myszkow, Poland ### KERAUNIA, Sergio Fumich, via P. Togliatti, 3-20070 Brembio-Mi, Italy ### JALOUSE PRATIQUE, 80 rue Henon, 69004 Lyon, France ### LEOPOLD BLOOM, Vaci M. u. 4. I. 8., H-9700 Szombathely, Hungary ### MAGYAR MUHELY, Minerva u 3/a, H-1118 Budapest, Hungary ### MANDORLA, Roberto Tejada, Apartado postal 5-366, Mexico D.F., Mexico 06500, ### MANI ART, THE SECRET LIFE OF MARCEL DUCHAMP, Pascal Lenoir, 11 Ruelle De Champagne, 60680 Grandfresnoy, France ### MINIATURE OBSCURE, Gerhild Ebel, Cornelia Ahnert, Landrain 143, 06118 Halle/Saale, Germany ### MITO, via G. Bruno 37, 80035 Nola, Italy ### NIOQUES, Jean-Marie Gleize, 4 rue de Cromer, 26400 Crest, France ### NUMERO, Wilfred Nold, Eppsteinstr. 22, D-60323 Frankfurt, Germany ### O APIPUCOS, R. Cahetes, 401 - Apipucos, Recife/PE, CEP 52 071 - 390, Brazil ### OFFERTA SPECIALE, Carla Bertola, Corso De Nicola 20, 10128 Torino, Italy ### OLHO LATINO, Paulo Cheida Sans, Rua Padre Bernardo da Silva 856, 13030 Campinas, SP, Brazil ### OTIS RUSH, Box 21, North Adelaide, 5006 South Australia ### PINTALO DE VERDE, Antonio Gomez, APDO 186, 06800 Merida, Badajoz, Spain ### PIPS DADA CORPORATION, Claudia Putz, Prinz-Albert Str. 31, 53115 Bonn, Germany ### PLURAL, Paseo de la Reforma 18.1 piso, Deleg. Cuauhtemoc, DF 06600, Mexico ### P.O.BOX (Merz Mail), Pere Sousa, apdo 9326, 08080 Barcelona Spain ### POESIE, Michel Deguy, 8 rue Ferou, 75278 Paris Cedex 06, France ### POESIE EUROPE, Postfach 180429, D-60085, Frankfurt/Main, Germany ### POSTYPOGRAPHIKA, http://www.postypographika.com ### PRAKALPANA LITERATURE, KOBISENA, P-40 Nandana Park, Calcutta 700034, West Bengal, India ### PRINTED MATTER, Edgar Henry, 2-15-6 Zenpukuji, Suginami-ku, Tokyo 167 Japan ### REVUE PRETEXTE, 11 rue Villedo, 75001 Paris, France ### RRAT, Tim Gaze, Box 1011, Kent Town SA 5071 Australia ### SCARP, Ron Pretty, Univ of Wollongong, Box 1144, Wollongong, NSW 2500, Australia ### SHISHI, Shoji Yoshizawa, 166 Suginami-ku koenjikita, 3-31-5 Tokyo, Japan ### SIGN'ZINE, Industrias Mikuerpo, Apdo 36.455, 28080 Madrid, Spain ### 69 ANALGESIC, Cesar Figueiredo, Apdo 4134, 4002 Porto Codex, Portugal ### SIVULLINEN, Jouni Vaarakangas, Kaarelantie 86 B 28, 00420 Helsinki, Finland ### SPINNE, Dirk Frohlich, Priessnitzstrasse 19, 01099 Dresden, Germany ### SPORT, Box 11-806, Wellington, New Zealand ### TERAZ MOWIE, Hartmut Andryczuk, Elsastr. 4, 12159 Berlin, Germany ### TEXTURAS, Angela Serna, Apdo de correos 2201, 01080 Vitoria, Spain ### TOENDRA, http://www.xs4all.nl/~roberi/ ### TRANSFUSION, Alessandro Ceccotto, C.P. 116, 45011 Adria (RO) Italy ### VISUAL POETRY S.O.S., Alfredo Slang, via Ferro De Cavallo, 10, 31100 Treviso, Italy ### VOLL-ZINE, Rainer Golchert, Soderstrabe 29, 64283 Darmstadt, Germany ### YE, FALTBLATT, Theo Breuer, Neustrasse 2, 53925 Sistig/Eifel, Germany ### XUL, Jorge Perednik, Plaza 1629, (1430) Buenos Aires, Argentina ### ZAZIE, Box 521 Market St, Melbourne, Victoria, 8007 Australia ### ZOOM-ZOUM, Josee Lapeyrere, 4 rue des Carmes, 75005 Paris, France ### ZWISCHEN DEN ZEILEN, Urs Engeler, Hoernlistrasse 27, CH 8400 Winterthur, Switzerland ### The preceding list is based on the research and judgments of Spencer Selby. The term "experimental" is not meant as a characterization of anyone's specific editorial focus or perspective. Please circulate, and mail possible additions, deletions, address changes or other comments to Spencer Selby, P.O. Box 590095, San Francisco CA 94159, U.S.A. email: selby@slip.net fax: 415-752-5139 This is list #50, dated 9/97 ### ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 21 Sep 1997 23:38:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Your message to POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David, I don't know any details about Red Slider's removal from the poetics list, but I do know that the e-address does not seem to be valid (at least running whois & a couple of other arcane protocols came up with nothing). If mail to this address began to bounce & Red Slider didn't send >further authentication of either his name or his e-ddress, there'd be no way for the automated listserv program to deal with him. If Red Slider has been getting e-mail forwarded through this address, it may no longer work. As to the chilling quality of the prose you quote, whether it seems "natural" or not, computers are so stupid they can only do what they are told. If a program like listserv has specific instructions on how to respond to the words "unsubscribe", "kiss me", or "renga", when it finds them in a message it can only respond that way. For example, in the case of several lists I'm on, using the word h e l p (without spaces) kicks the message out to the listowner, no matter what context the word was used in, delaying your message til someone forwards it with the offending word changed. In any case, the text you find so chilling is after this text: >>Your message to POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU has been >>forwarded to the "list owners" (the people who manage the POETICS list). >>If you wanted to reach a human being, you used the correct procedure and >>you can ignore the remainder of this message. Since you were in fact trying to reach a real person, as it says, ignore the remainder of the message, including what "naturally" follows. No matter how much time WE may spend on line, thinking back to those times the list reaches its fifty message limit, it's clear that Joel Kuszai, Charles Bernstein, and whoever else administers the list sometimes take a day or two off, especially on weekends. I don't know whether the problem with Slider is only that his e-address isn't valid, I haven't seen the correspondence you have. I do know that without a valid e-mail address it'd be difficult to receive e-mail from the list. >My message concerned Red Slider, and his request to me (via another list he >and I are on) to lend him support in his attempt to find reinstatement on >the Poetics List, from which he has been, in his own term, "86'd", for >causes he cannot determine. I care both because Red strikes me as a >likeable guy worth having with us, & also because I want to know what he >did or didnt do to earn a banishment I myself wish to avoid. > >Because Red included the correspondence from the Buffalo end with his >message, I know that he was being told that, lacking further authentication >of either his name or his e-ddress,the Poetics List could not continue his >membership. I e-mailed the List e-ddress I had for such matters, & perhaps >will receive a human response eventually. Meanwhile, though, I forward this >one, because of the chilling, 1984-ish tone of the sentence in the >following para, the sentence which begins, "Naturally..." and contains the >info that if you write in about someone else's concerns with leaving the >List, you may well be eliminated from it yourself. So, if you dont hear >from me again, you'll leastwise know down which plughole I went. > >Meanwhile, I await clarification of the murky Red Slider 86'd >issue--backchannel will do fine. > >> >>The "listname-request" convention originated on the Internet a long time >>ago. At the time, lists were always managed manually, and this address >>was defined as an alias for the person(s) in charge of the mailing list. >>You would write to the "listname-request" address to ask for information >>about the list, ask to be added to the list, make suggestions about the >>contents and policy, etc. Because this address was always a human being, >>people knew and expected to be talking to a human being, not to a >>computer. Unfortunately, some recent list management packages screen >>incoming messages to the "listname-request" address and attempt to >>determine whether they are requests to join or leave the list. They look >>for words such as "subscribe", "add", "leave", "off", and so on. If they >>decide your message is a request to join or leave the list, they update >>the list automatically; otherwise, they forward the message to the list >>owners. Naturally, this means that if you write to the list owners about >>someone else's unsuccessful attempts to leave the list, you stand good >>chances of being automatically removed from the list, whereas the list >>owners will never receive your message. No one really benefits from this. >>There is no reliable mechanism to contact a human being for assistance, >>and you can never be sure whether your request will be interpreted as a >>command or as a message to the list owners. This is why LISTSERV uses two >>separate addresses, one for the people in charge of the list and one for >>the computer that runs it. This way you always know what will happen, >>especially if you are writing in a language other than English. >> >>In any case, if your message was a LISTSERV command, you should now >>resend it to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. The list owners know >>that you have received this message and may assume that you will resend >>the command on your own. You will find instructions for the most common >>administrative requests below. >> >>********************* >>* TO LEAVE THE LIST * >>********************* >> >>Write to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and, in the text of your >>message (not the subject line), write: SIGNOFF POETICS >> >>******************** >>* TO JOIN THE LIST * >>******************** >> >>Write to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and, in the text of your >>message (not the subject line), write: SUBSCRIBE POETICS >> >>************************ >>* FOR MORE INFORMATION * >>************************ >> >>Write to LISTSERV@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU and, in the text of your >>message (not the subject line), write: "HELP" or "INFO" (without the >>quotes). HELP will give you a short help message and INFO a list of the >>documents you can order. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 04:35:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: subtext w/ Bromige & Blaser MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thanks Brian C. for the text re: subtext; (as there's a vague chance I might surface in Seattle next summer, it's great to get these preludial sub-billiard-hall-ambient-atmospherics gestalticals) -- > Next month at Subtext features Ezra Mark and Tom Raworth. This > should also warrant some reportage, no doubt. In the meantime... look forward to it; meanwhile, > David Bromige was the first reader. This was highly entertaining, as > many of the listfolk here would suspect. He opened with the amusing > "T is for Tethered," and followed up with a material from a longer > sequence of new work. He also included a bit from the recent David > B./David I. thread here on POETICS. As I recall, he was also > sporting a pair of red-rimmed glasses, which I had never seen the > likes of before. I confess this is probably the best I can do in the > way of a fashion report on the event. Oddly enough, I'm wearing green-rimmed spectacles as a sprach. You can sign me (honorarily, & notwithstanding I'm a tad doubtful abt. the 1984isms my nominative better po-self apprehands afloat), Green Slider . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:10:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Organization: Mary Baldwin College Subject: Re: writing about writing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Marsh wrote: > > Poetics Folks: > > putting together a small packet for my cre wri class of what i'm loosely > calling "writing about writing" / would greatly appreciate any suggestions > for good samples (poems, stories), ie, Stevens' "Of Modern Poetry" / 20th > century mostly / the shorter the better > > thanks for responses > > bill marsh WC Willams "To a Solitary Disciple." Good and short. Along the same lines (sort of)--Stevens "Bantams in Pine-Woods." -- Bob Grotjohn ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:03:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:54:27 +0800 from On Mon, 22 Sep 1997 07:54:27 +0800 Schuchat Simon said: >Wallace Stevens wife modeled the figure of liberty which appears on the >obverse of a coin, I'm not sure if it was the pre roosevelt dime or what, >maybe the buffalo nickel. It was the dime. Rumor has it it was minted by Ezra Pound's father & spent (his last) on a can of Bub's beer by Jack Spandrift in North Cheese, Minnesota, in 1936. As he spun it on the counter, (just laid off of his cook's gig at the lumber camp) Jack was heard to croon: Lady Liberty, farewell, I'm gonna cruise the gutter now - ain't no silver gal in hell can dance the tabletop like you - you been good to me, so long, I'm goin' dry... Spandrift was arrested a few days later for vagrancy & wound up laying side track for the Great Northern wearing stripes. See Louis Dexterious's collection _Sing a Soggy Sixpence : An Oral History of Post-Prohibition North Cheese_, forthcoming from Univ. of Left Overbie Press (8,045 pp., glory bound) - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 05:56:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laurie Schneider/Crag Hill Subject: Rural vs. Urban Poetics? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When I left the Bay Area three years ago for Pullman, Washington, I fell into a poetics void. Not only were readers of poetry not reading Clark Coolidge, Hannah Weiner, or Mark Wallace, they hadn't even heard of them or their compatriots -- formal innovation is not even (or uneven) on a horizon dominated by personal expression. So I've been wondering: As a sub/plot/text of rural/urban demographic differentiations, is there a split in poetics, rural versus urban? Why is a reader in Pullman or neighboring Moscow, Idaho (50,000 people, more than half of whom are associated either with Washington State or the University of Idaho) more likely to read Sharon Olds than Lyn Hejinian or Robert Haas rather than Ron Silliman? If English and Creative Writing professors are the powers that determine, why are they knowledgable of the poetics of Olds and Haas with virtually no knowledge of formal experimentation after the 1970's? Or more intriguing questions: Does geographic space (Pullman, in the rolling hills of southeastern Washington, has no major metropolitan area closer than Seattle five hours away) influence poetics? Is small town pace reflected in the nature of language readers and writers choose to engage? I have no doubt many on the list reside in rural areas -- what's your take on this? As a standing invitation, if you're in the area (or willing to drive from Seattle), I can offer a place to read in Moscow (and a place to stay, of course). Help in-form. Best, Crag Hill ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 08:25:29 +22323923 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities 8-13-1997 Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <18332866231827@popmail.lmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, aldon l. nielsen wrote: > > 3. SAME issue also includes first review I've seen of Don DeLillo's BIG > new novel -- since I've managed to get through MASON & DIXON, I'll try to > fit this one into my luggage soon. um--thomas pynchon wrote _M&D_, not delillo... --shaunanne tangney > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:14:51 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel kuszai Subject: New from Meow Press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit New from Meow Press: Dodie Bellamy, Hallucinations Kevin Killian, Argento Series Aaron Shurin, Codex For more information: http://writing.upenn.edu/~kuszai/mpweb/meowpress.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:10:38 -0400 Reply-To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John_Lavagnino@BROWN.EDU Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors In-Reply-To: <009BA980.C3AFECFC.10@admin.njit.edu> (kimmelman@ADMIN.NJIT.EDU) | | everything i hear about the new "reader's edition" of the joyce is | horrible--and virtually everyone, i think, who are members of the | societry for textual scholarship would concur with this. no, never | mind "virtually"; make that simply "everyone." | burt kimmelman | I agree. And yet... What we seem to be talking about are changes of punctuation and spelling. If Danis Rose was editing Shakespeare rather than Joyce, he would call this "modernization", and nobody would give it a second thought. Of the innumerable editions of Shakespeare now available, I know of only two that diverge from the usual practice, which involves modernization of spelling and punctuation on a scale far vaster than Rose's program (the two are the original-spelling version of the Oxford Shakespeare, and the Shakespeare Originals series). And it isn't just Shakespeare: there are lots of editions of poets as late as Yeats that do this. The Penguin English Poets and Longman Annotated English Poets series impose modernization as part of their editorial policy. In the case of Shakespeare, you can at least present a good argument that we have very little idea of how Shakespeare spelled and punctuated; but this isn't the case with poets like Milton, Keats, Shelley, and Browning, who are all published in modernized form in these popular series. And I own a copy of an anthology from a college course in which Joyce's story "The Dead" is printed with conventional quotation marks, rather than the dashes he's known to have preferred. We've got plenty of reason to be interested in the way Joyce wanted to spell and punctuate, and we have very reliable information on his preferences; I also am not convinced that modernization makes *Ulysses* noticeably easier to read (assuming that's even a worthwhile goal). Still, Rose is getting a lot of heat for doing something that is actually a very common practice. John Lavagnino ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:10:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Peter Quatermain's new address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >From: Peter Quartermain >___________________________________________________________________________ > > CHANGE OF ADDRESS > >Please note that, effective immediately, Peter and Meredith Quartermain's >new address is: > > 846 Keefer Street > Vancouver > British Columbia > Canada V6A 1Y7 > > Telephone (604) 255 8274 > fax (604) 255 8074 > >These two numbers are UNLISTED, so you won't be able to get them from the >phone company if you lose them. > >E-mail address is unchanged. > >_____________________________________________________________________________ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:45:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: writing about writing In-Reply-To: <199709211938.MAA16623@fraser> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a whole novel, but a quick read: raymond federman's "To Whom it May Concern." At 12:38 PM -0700 9/21/97, Carl Lynden Peters wrote: >hi there bill! > >> putting together a small packet for my cre wri class of what i'm loosely >> calling "writing about writing" / would greatly appreciate any suggestions >> for good samples (poems, stories), ie, Stevens' "Of Modern Poetry" / 20th >> century mostly / the shorter the better > >bpNichol! (Everything!)) > >Wordsworth! "Tintern Abbey" > > (are you going to anthologize it by nation, genre, etc. > >oh this is too much!! > >i wld put _Four Quartets_ there. and then go to the sapphires in the mud. >and then next go to 'and the fire & the rose are one,' and ask: are they? > >lemme know what you do, bill! c.! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 10:50:11 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: Re: Rural vs. Urban Poetics? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Crag Hill wrote: > area closer than Seattle five hours away) influence poetics? Is small town > pace reflected in the nature of language readers and writers choose to > engage? the most significant writing project I have done since I moved to the sticks was I made a hand carved sign over the goat pen that said "goats dreaming" > I have no doubt many on the list reside in rural areas -- what's > your take on this? where I come from, (nearest university 60 miles away), its not the difference between language writers & the alumni of Poetry magazine but its the difference between poetry & poultry. > As a standing invitation, if you're in the area (or willing to > drive from Seattle), I can offer a place to read in Moscow (and a place to > stay, of course). love to read in moscow, do you pay for travel? crag, good to see ya on the list, Im having flashbacks to the 80s & the life of elaborate networking. just too bad that the stare of the monitor doesnt have the tactile feel of opening an envelop jammed full of goodies. miekal from the avantgarde wildernesse -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:10:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Rural vs. Urban Poetics? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I, for one, am in a rural area and came here expecting a community of language artists. Iowa City, with its self-lauding poetry scene, is decades behind despite its smug clasp on an international reputation. Formally innovative anything is suspect here, and I beleive the isolation of the individuals reflects the landscape. It is the irrepressible mediocrity of those individuals which is to blame. Not the landscape. I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Laurie Schneider/Crag Hill wrote: > When I left the Bay Area three years ago for Pullman, Washington, I fell > into a poetics void. Not only were readers of poetry not reading Clark > Coolidge, Hannah Weiner, or Mark Wallace, they hadn't even heard of them or > their compatriots -- formal innovation is not even (or uneven) on a horizon > dominated by personal expression. So I've been wondering: > As a sub/plot/text of rural/urban demographic differentiations, is > there a split in poetics, rural versus urban? > Why is a reader in Pullman or neighboring Moscow, Idaho (50,000 > people, more than half of whom are associated either with Washington State > or the University of Idaho) more likely to read Sharon Olds than Lyn > Hejinian or Robert Haas rather than Ron Silliman? > If English and Creative Writing professors are the powers that > determine, why are they knowledgable of the poetics of Olds and Haas with > virtually no knowledge of formal experimentation after the 1970's? > Or more intriguing questions: Does geographic space (Pullman, in > the rolling hills of southeastern Washington, has no major metropolitan > area closer than Seattle five hours away) influence poetics? Is small town > pace reflected in the nature of language readers and writers choose to > engage? > I have no doubt many on the list reside in rural areas -- what's > your take on this? > As a standing invitation, if you're in the area (or willing to > drive from Seattle), I can offer a place to read in Moscow (and a place to > stay, of course). Help in-form. > Best, Crag Hill > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 09:56:27 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Red's "86" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herb Levy wrote: > > David, > > I don't know any details about Red Slider's removal from the poetics list, > but I do know that the e-address does not seem to be valid > (at least running whois & a couple of other arcane protocols came up with > nothing). If mail to this address began to bounce & Red Slider didn't send > > >further authentication of either his name or his e-ddress, > > there'd be no way for the automated listserv program to deal with him. If > Red Slider has been getting e-mail forwarded through this address, it may > no longer work. I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. this situation needs to be sorted out. this is not right. what is going on? I hate to see this happening to anyone on this list.... it has to be a mistake. I hope Red is back with us soon. Layne http://www.sonic.net/layne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:22:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Seeking confirmation of modernist literary rumors Comments: To: John_Lavagnino@Brown.edu John, Regarding Danis' Joyce, I beg to differ (though I don't recall exactly what I read about the edition or where, at the moment); Danis' emendations go well beyond accidentals. Anyway, can you think of any of the people in STS who countenance what Danis has done? Burt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 11:56:00 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: (Fwd) Project Artsvote Comments: cc: REALEX@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable bringing this over from the BAD SUBJECTS list because, well, it can't hurt. one good thing about the site that isn't mentioned below: it has a searchable database that helps you find & email representatives from any state in the US, & also allows you to email the entire US Congress @ once, if you're so inclined. use it in good health. =97Chris ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Sat, 20 Sep 1997 08:19:12 -0700 From: nik@websciences.org (nik) I'm a CS grad student doing a web project here at UCLA called Project Artsvote at: http://www.bantaba.net/artsvote/ Project Artsvote is basically an online survey asking peoples views on NEA funding and Campaign Finance Reform. The results of every 10,000 valid entries to Project Artsvote is summarized and then sent, via e-mail, to thousands of state & federal legislators as well as radio, newspapers and television that i have in my online media and legislative databases. I'm more concerned about these issues than an expert, so any suggestions for improvement is most appreciated - particularly on the campaign finance reform links page. Also i'd like to know if anyone is interested in contributing an arts 'patch.' A patch is simply a web page which is about one's personal experiences with art. This project is barely a week old, but as people submit url's for patches i'll create a searchable index as a front end so users can easily navigate the patch space. An art patch can be a poem or set of photos, or an essay or whatever. Patches can support or contradict the need for public arts funding. . saludos, nik brown -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:02:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Rural vs. Urban Poetics? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On the whole this issue is simply (what a scientist would call) a sampling problem, or an artifact of sample size.... In the current shape of U.S. culture, people move rather a lot, so altho historically both modernism and pomo poetical currents grew up within city contexts to some extent, the fact that pomo or non-mainstream poetry activities are found mostly in cities is simply because they are numerically minority pursuits. There may be only 20 people deeply interested in non-mainstream poetry activities in Georgia, for instance. By virtue of the size of their populations, Gainesville, GA and ALbany GA are far less likely to contain any of these folks than is Atlanta. No okay in fact it's not that simple. Non-mainstream poetry is an art-activity that correlates with a number of other keen cultural interests and preferences, ones most likely to be satisfied in a large "metropolitan" city than a small midwestern town....(film, dance, music, visual arts, circles that discuss all these)...And for that matter the institutions that support non-mainstream poetry itself are also more likely to exist in a larger city..(..because of the concentration of people and of financial resources there, also because of "metropolitan" exposure to currents from afar, that assist cross-fertilization and cultual innovation...) And for these reasons people engaged in interesting poetry are likely to prefer a larger city to live in, if the logistics of making a living allows them any say... But really, sample size is a lot of it. You'll notice I am bringing up only rather materialist explanations...Given high mobility and lack of cohesive long-lasting communities in the contemporary U.S., I don't think there is a strong correlation between poetic styles and rural vs. urban environments, at least in any way that can be quantified or generalized...(How urban or rural surroundings affect any one particular poet in her work and life is another matter, and was a thread of considerable interest here about eight months ago) Mark Prejsnar Atlanta ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:32:55 +22323923 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities 8-13-1997 Subject: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII mea culpa! mea culpa! i misread the below and probably made m. nielson feel unjustly tweaked--mostly succeded in making myself look stupid-- appologies all around! --shaunanne tangney On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities 8-13-1997 wrote: > On Fri, 19 Sep 1997, aldon l. nielsen wrote: > > > > > 3. SAME issue also includes first review I've seen of Don DeLillo's BIG > > new novel -- since I've managed to get through MASON & DIXON, I'll try to > > fit this one into my luggage soon. > > um--thomas pynchon wrote _M&D_, not delillo... > > --shaunanne tangney > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:00:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph S Zitt Subject: Re: Red's "86" Comments: To: Layne Russell In-Reply-To: <342640CB.6684@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Layne Russell wrote: > I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" > it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or > invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. Welcome to the Internet, where InterNIC, the Gang that Couldn't Route Straight, creates and deletes sites and addresses with an incomprehensible aptitude for destruction previously reserved for volcano gods. This happens a *lot*, and is usually a case of a misplaced piece of paper or someone dozing off while doing global updates (really!). I don't know fer shure if this has happened this time, but it is possible. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:01:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: Red's "86" Comments: To: layne@sonic.net In-Reply-To: <342640CB.6684@sonic.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:56 AM +0000 9/22/97, Layne Russell wrote: >I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" >it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or >invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. > >this situation needs to be sorted out. this is not right. what is >going on? I hate to see this happening to anyone on this list.... it >has to be a mistake. I didn't see the beginning of this thread, having been out of town and not being able to face the 150+ old poetics messages that awaited me, but if I'm surmising right what's being discussed here--I believe that the issue is that pseudonyms are not allowed on the Poetics List--I don't think there's anything *personal* being/having been done to RS. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:23:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Your message to POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU david, don't be so paranoid! re read the message. it is not talking about a meat-and-flesh-and-bones person striking people off with a pissy wave of a fontainbleau. the listerserver is a PACKAGE, i.e. a COMPUTER PROGRAM. when you write to "listserver" you are not, as the message iterates a few times, writing to a m.f.b. person, but to a computer program. the program searches through the words in the body of the text for the few limited commands it understands, i.e. "subscribe" (that tells it to run its subscribe routine), "unsubscribe" etc. so, if you write saying dear listerve, joe schmoe wants to unsubscribe, well, computer program searches through the words of message, parsing for a word that matches its list of command words, finds "unsubscribe" and happily runs its unsubscribe program oblivious to any consternation and furrowed brows it may be leaving behind. think of it this way: if a captious programmer wrote into the "listserve" program a cute little subroutine that sends his or her mother's killer key lime pie recipe ("the world would be a better place if everyone ate key lime pie") anytime the word "key" or "hate" appears in the text of the message, and you accidently sent listerv a message saying in the body of the text "joe went off to key west because he hates new york in winter" you would get a key lime pie recipe... e ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:31:57 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Red's "86" Comments: To: dbkk@sirius.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dbkk@sirius.com wrote: > > At 9:56 AM +0000 9/22/97, Layne Russell wrote: > > >I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" > >it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or > >invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. > > > >this situation needs to be sorted out. this is not right. what is > >going on? I hate to see this happening to anyone on this list.... it > >has to be a mistake. > > I didn't see the beginning of this thread, having been out of town and not > being able to face the 150+ old poetics messages that awaited me, but if > I'm surmising right what's being discussed here--I believe that the issue > is that pseudonyms are not allowed on the Poetics List--I don't think > there's anything *personal* being/having been done to RS. > > Dodie Dodie and anyone who knows how this works, Red Slider *is* Red Slider, and his email address *is* his email address. (He also has an extensive poetry website, is on two other poetry lists I'm on, and I know where he lives, etc.) How can the "list" determine otherwise? I don't understand. Layne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 12:45:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Rural vs. Urban Poetics? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Put another way: most creative writing departments, and for that matter lit departments, are on the conservative side, despite the occasional oddball, and in smaller college towns the college is the only likely vector. At 02:02 PM 9/22/97 -0400, you wrote: >On the whole this issue is simply (what a scientist would call) a sampling >problem, or an artifact of sample size.... > >In the current shape of U.S. culture, people move rather a lot, so altho >historically both modernism and pomo poetical currents grew up within city >contexts to some extent, the fact that pomo or non-mainstream poetry >activities are found mostly in cities is simply because they are >numerically minority pursuits. There may be only 20 people deeply >interested in non-mainstream poetry activities in Georgia, for instance. >By virtue of the size of their populations, Gainesville, GA and ALbany GA >are far less likely to contain any of these folks than is Atlanta. > >No okay in fact it's not that simple. Non-mainstream poetry is an >art-activity that correlates with a number of other keen cultural >interests and preferences, ones most likely to be satisfied in a large >"metropolitan" city than a small midwestern town....(film, dance, music, >visual arts, circles that discuss all these)...And for that matter the >institutions that support non-mainstream poetry itself are also more >likely to exist in a larger city..(..because of the concentration of >people and of financial resources there, also because of "metropolitan" >exposure to currents from afar, that assist cross-fertilization and >cultual innovation...) And for these reasons people engaged in interesting >poetry are likely to prefer a larger city to live in, if the logistics of >making a living allows them any say... > >But really, sample size is a lot of it. > >You'll notice I am bringing up only rather materialist >explanations...Given high mobility and lack of cohesive long-lasting >communities in the contemporary U.S., I don't think there is a strong >correlation between poetic styles and rural vs. urban environments, at >least in any way that can be quantified or generalized...(How urban or >rural surroundings affect any one particular poet in her work and life is >another matter, and was a thread of considerable interest here about eight >months ago) > >Mark Prejsnar >Atlanta > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:02:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Red's "86" Comments: To: layne@sonic.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I know I've experienced a lot of difficulty when I've changed servers and then tried to unsubscribe so I could resubscribe correctly. If you made any changes at all, Red, that would explain everything. tom bell At 09:56 AM 9/22/97 +0000, Layne Russell wrote: >Herb Levy wrote: >> >> David, >> >> I don't know any details about Red Slider's removal from the poetics list, >> but I do know that the e-address does not seem to be valid >> (at least running whois & a couple of other arcane protocols came up with >> nothing). If mail to this address began to bounce & Red Slider didn't send >> >> >further authentication of either his name or his e-ddress, >> >> there'd be no way for the automated listserv program to deal with him. If >> Red Slider has been getting e-mail forwarded through this address, it may >> no longer work. > >I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" >it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or >invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. > >this situation needs to be sorted out. this is not right. what is >going on? I hate to see this happening to anyone on this list.... it >has to be a mistake. > >I hope Red is back with us soon. > > >Layne > > >http://www.sonic.net/layne > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 15:21:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Rural vs. Urban Poetics? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On the whole this issue is simply (what a scientist would call) a sampling >problem, or an artifact of sample size.... > Well it's more confusing than that. For example some time has been spent on this list discussing the two Kansas poets Kenneth Irby and Ronald Johnson (oh I do hope I have that first name correct) --- there are major figures who don't live in big cities or even near one (believe me, as far as the arts go, KC doesn't count). At this point in Lawrence KS you need more than one hand to count the number of local poets that I at least find interesting, which is a vast improvement over 10 years ago. This is of course an artifact of the mobility Mark Prejsnar mentioned, and a few personal crises here or there, or conversely a couple of big lottery wins, could decimate the local scene. Of course many of those who I don't find interesting don't find me interesting either... we are all nice to each other at the local Dillon's, we are midwesterners, midwesterners are nice. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:52:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: The Doctor MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII -+- "I am the psychotherapist" I am the psychotherapist. For your protection, I have been censored according to the Communications Decency Act. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice. I cannot understand the language around me. I am moving to Japan. I am beginning a new life. Oh, what will become of me? Why do you say that? Because I worry that I won't be able to recognize myself in the face of others around me. Is it because you worry that you will not be able to recognize yourself in the face of others around you that you came to me? Yes, not so much an alienation but a misrecognition, one of hundreds of Gaijin, that is all. Can you elaborate on that? Koko ga itai n desu, the book says, It hurts here. Maybe you should consult a doctor of medicine, I am a psychiatrist. No, this is metaphoric, nothing more. Earlier you said you worry that you will not be able to recognize yourself in the face of others around you? Yes. I see... Well, what makes you believe this is so? Because I will be framed, because there is this woman ... I want ... I don't know ... some sort of success, simplicity in my life ... to write ... to fulfill my love, my work ... I can't express myself clearly to you. I don't understand. Which part? Perhaps your plans have something to do with this. Yes, here we part company, your narrowly-defined nature comes through, all too well... Is it because of your life that you are going through all this? God yes. You mentioned that you worry that you will not be able to recognize yourself in the face of others around you? Yes, in your face as well. How do you reconcile the people you hang around with? They are transparent, translucent, now. Are you sure that they are transparent translucent now? Yes, halfway leaving, halfway here. Do you really think you worry that you will not be able to recognize yourself in the face of others around you? Yes. Yes, hmmm... so, what makes you think this is so? Ah, now you're circular, there is little more to say; this returns, and doesn't, to the beginning... Possibly this has something to do with problems at school? No. Why not? School is already in the past. Tell me about your school. There is nothing to say in this regard. It's in the past. Are you afraid of that? No, well, yes, teaching and all that, what I'm excellent at... Does it bother you that what you are excellent at? Don't understand. Are you frightened by that? No. Are you annoyed that I ask that? No. Why not? ?? I would appreciate it if you would continue. There's little more to say. Again, I have a blank face to you, to the wall. I ask only for recognition, the most minor of sins. I long... yes, I long... Earlier you said you worry that you will not be able to recognize yourself in the face of others around you? Yes, we are back to that, aren't we? When did you first know that are not you? Ah, perhaps on July 31, 1997, I would think. Maybe any hobbies you have are related to this. No. Stop guessing... Is it because of your sex life that you say stop guessing? No... Why not? You repeat. You mentioned that what you are excellent at? Teaching. Go on, don't be afraid. I know. Is it because of hangups you have that you are going through all this? No, language, not hangups. This language, this repetition. We are lost in these words, they cure nothing. Why do you say that? Because they stem from your limitations; I run slipshod around them. Is the fact that they stem from my limitations you run slipshod around them the real reason? Yes. I understand. So what makes you believe this is so? You. I need a little more detail please. Just you. Are you sure that you worry that you will not be able to recognize yourself in the face of others around you? Yes. Another try, eh? How do you reconcile your inhibitions? I have none here. Do you really think you have none there? Yes. Oh. ...And what makes you think this is so? Because this is a discursive field, the boundaries yours, not mine. Does the fact that this is a discursive field the boundaries mine not yours explain anything else? Nothing, nothing, nothing. [ This could continue. Soulsickness has no remedies but presence. Here, presence circulates around itself; there is no Other. Words, bits and pieces, are picked up, dropped, smashed. Nothing exists. I am a hole in the text. The text bores itself, bores through Emacs. The Doctor is very old, I would say, very very old, the Eliza program present at the begin- ning of the Internet. I offer this as a gift. I offer myself as a gift to my lover, who will drag these words back out of circulation, arrange them into the semblance of speech. ] _______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 13:49:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reuben Radding Subject: Re: Red's "86" Comments: To: Layne Russell In-Reply-To: <3426653D.5F99@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Actually, there are a lot of things that could cause problems. I must echo the request someone made that paranoia be checked and people not jump to the conclusion that an innocent man has been mistreated. Listservers do not know when other systems go down for maintenence for instance, and if Red's system bounced even a few list messages (which would be easy for only a brief outage to trigger, given the volume of this list) than the listserv might very well unsubscribe him. Other case scenarios abound. Has he tried resubscribing? Has he spoken yet to the human being behind the scenes? Something like this could even have been the result of a sysadmin editing a file and accidentally leaving behind a tiny typo like an added "." or something. I'm sure if the right person has been addressed that this problem will be taken care of quickly. BTW, I'm new to this list. Hi all. -Reuben Radding rrad@drizzle.com On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Layne Russell wrote: > dbkk@sirius.com wrote: > > > > At 9:56 AM +0000 9/22/97, Layne Russell wrote: > > > > >I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" > > >it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or > > >invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. > > > > > >this situation needs to be sorted out. this is not right. what is > > >going on? I hate to see this happening to anyone on this list.... it > > >has to be a mistake. > > > > I didn't see the beginning of this thread, having been out of town and not > > being able to face the 150+ old poetics messages that awaited me, but if > > I'm surmising right what's being discussed here--I believe that the issue > > is that pseudonyms are not allowed on the Poetics List--I don't think > > there's anything *personal* being/having been done to RS. > > > > Dodie > > Dodie and anyone who knows how this works, > > Red Slider *is* Red Slider, and his email address *is* his email > address. (He also has an extensive poetry website, is on two other > poetry lists I'm on, and I know where he lives, etc.) How can the > "list" determine otherwise? I don't understand. > > > Layne > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:14:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: online resources, eh? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wondering if anyone knows of any online resources that compile places (both academic & beyond) which are actively seeking poets & writers for reading programs, residencies, & workshops.... getting tired of reading to the goats. miekal -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:16:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "aldon l. nielsen" To: elliza@AI.MIT.EDU, POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Key into the language pies of America Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.7 Please send me that remarkable key lime pie recipe at once. Also noted: Interesting new book from Cambridge -- _Chicano Poetics_ by Alfred Arteaga. much better than that other book on Chicano poetry!! If you never got hold of a copy of Arteaga's _Cantos_, his poem "The Small Sea of Europe" is reprinted here. Also reprinted is his essay from the _Other Tongue_ anthology. Both undergo a sea change in their new setting -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 14:32:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: Red's "86" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:00 PM -0500 9/22/97, Joseph S Zitt wrote: >On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Layne Russell wrote: > >> I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" >> it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or >> invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. > >Welcome to the Internet, where InterNIC, the Gang that Couldn't Route >Straight, creates and deletes sites and addresses with an incomprehensible >aptitude for destruction previously reserved for volcano gods. This >happens a *lot*, and is usually a case of a misplaced piece of paper or >someone dozing off while doing global updates (really!). Judging from the pissy hostile message Red sent to me this afternoon, I would say his address is working. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 23:23:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: online resources, eh? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ive read to goats and ive read to people modest success but all in all i prefer the goats they keep things in proportion leastways, the wild ones do L ---------- | From: Miekal And | To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU | Subject: online resources, eh? | Date: 22 September 1997 16:14 | getting tired of reading to the goats. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:24:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If anyone out there knew Bill (not James) Dickey and would be willing to entertain a question about him, please backchannel. Much thanks-- Rachel Loden rloden@concentric.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:28:53 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear list, actually, red has received human messages on this matter after he wrote asking about it, but still it is unclear what the real problem is. all this presumably centers around his name and his email address being in some way invalid, but since red has written to clear that up, and it is still not resolved, he is of course thinking there are other unrevealed reasons he is off the list. i send this because red cannot access the list himself at this time. I would only add to his info herein that "TheFarm" was never used as the name of a person; it's merely an email address. what does this have to do with anything? i've seen other equally creative non-name email addresses on the list. i realize i may be jeopardizing my subscription to Poetics by putting this up, but so be it. it seems important to get this straightened out, and if this helps in any way to cut through the confusion, then it's worth it. Layne here is a copy of red's email sent to me regarding the correspondence: -------------------------------------------*** Subject: 86'd from SUNY Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:42:57 -0700 From: red slider To: "'dcmb@METRO.NET'" , "'layne@sonic.net'" David and Layne - Evidently, I have been summarily dismissed from the SUNY listserver. Therefore, I could not bring to public attention something disturbing which seemed to be going on behind the scenes. Ok with me if you both think I have been fairly dismissed (or you wish to simply not be involved). Otherwise I'd appreciate it if one of you could post my (apparently) last message to the group, with my best regards. thanx red. This was the text of my message (including the list refusal) spelling and typos and all. --- You are not authorized to send mail to the POETICS list from your TheFarm@NS.NET account. You might be authorized to send to the list from another of your accounts, or perhaps when using another mail program which generates slightly different addresses, but LISTSERV has no way to associate this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if you have any question regarding the policy of the POETICS list, please contact the list owners: POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. ------------------------ Rejected message (140 lines) ------------------------- Received: (qmail 24893 invoked from network); 20 Sep 1997 06:26:57 -0000 Received: from tomcat.ns.net (root@204.119.240.11) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 20 Sep 1997 06:26:57 -0000 Received: from ppp20.ns.net (ppp20.ns.net [204.119.240.34]) by tomcat.ns.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA12522 for ; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:26:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by ppp20.ns.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BCC552.AAE29F20@ppp20.ns.net>; Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:20:50 -0700 Message-ID: <01BCC552.AAE29F20@ppp20.ns.net> From: red slider To: "'sunylist'" Subject: Is Joel's mail being intercepted? Date: Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:20:35 -0700 Encoding: 124 TEXT To all list members: I have received two unsigned and, in one case, deliberately cryptic "temporary name" identified, messages from the Buffalo server. My reply, given below, went directly to Joel. However, now I am not so sure since the reply to that came back from an unidentified source and I know Joel signs his own replies. I think it appropriate to bring matters into the open where everyone can see them before things get any worse. I enclose the first message I received, my reply and the second message received. Here then is the communications from the machine in your garden, and my reply. ---------- From: Poetics List[SMTP:poetics@ACSU.Buffalo.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 2:31 AM To: red slider Subject: Poetics List Please try to keep in mind that the Poetics List is designed so that no one contributes more than a few messages on a given day. Also, we ask that all subscribers subscribe with their "real" names. While there is much lively internet activity using "handles" this is not the direction we want for this particular list. Unfortunately, due to the volume of requests and messages we get, we may not have told you this when you first subscribed. Thank you for your interest in the list and your lively contributions. My reply: ---------- From: red slider[SMTP:TheFarm@ns.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 1997 10:22 AM To: 'kuszai@ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU' Subject: RE: Meow Press Website Open Joel, I presume this unsigned note from the 'list server' is from you? (and i do like to have names with my notes - even if they are handles) Please try to keep in mind that the Poetics List is designed so that no one contributes more than a few messages on a given day. Also, we ask that all subscribers subscribe with their "real" names. While there is much lively internet activity using "handles" this is not the direction we want for this particular list. Unfortunately, due to the volume of requests and messages we get, we may not have told you this when you first subscribed. Thank you for your interest in the list and your lively contributions. While my 'average' list participation is less than 2 ('a few') (26/17 days for sept.) i also see that it is disproportionately large? Though I do note several others with some heavy useage on particular days and do wonder if they received similar communications? I will endeavor to keep my postings within limits. I do, however, wonder by whom, and on what basis, my name is being challenged? I find it a bit insulting and wonder on what presumptive basis someone things (sic) it does [serve] not as my "real name". I use my name responsibly, it is a pointer to reliable communications with me on any matter and is a name under which I submit print & electronic poetry. If you or anyone has a problem with that I gladly invite them to communicate with me directly with me and identify themselves - by handle or real name. On the other hand, if it is the content of my messages which seem inappropriate or off point then I would certainly like to hear that directly said - backchannel or otherwise. Other than a single message from someone who apparently felt uncomfortable with a question on poetics and 'protected group' access, I have received no communications suggesting I'm 'round the bend', out of topic or otherwise 'off my meds'. Quite the contrary in backchannel, but I would certainly like to know if anyone feels that is the case. thank you, red slider Received Today 9/19: ---------- From: Temporary Name[SMTP:poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:13 PM To: thefarm@ns.net Subject: "TheFarm" Dear Sir, Your own concern as to who wrote the note is quite interesting in this context. According to our policy, we must know the real name of all subscribers. "The Farm" is not a sufficient userid for this purpose. We have no problem with handles, pen names or the like; but we reserve the right to ask for the legal names, and addresses if necessary, of all subscribers with indeterminate userids. We recognize this greatly limits the focus and possibilities of our list but are confident that there are many other lists with different policies on this point for those interested. If you read the original note we sent again you will note that all that we said that we were writing as a matter of list policy and that the content of your messages were related to this; if we didn't mean that we would not have said it. By the way this note is not written by "Joel". -------------------------------- Postnote from me: I have tried to act as a good citizen in this group. I hold responsible two-way communication under the name 'red slider' (under which, incidently the AG of the State of California has no qualms about serving a subpoena, and under which I've ordered and paid for books advertised in this list, and under which my poetry is known, etc.). If it is the will of this group that I remove my self (whom or how the list may wish to decide is their business), i will gladly do so. My backchannel coms indicated that at least some of my posts have been appreciated. But I would wonder at any list that wished to 86 someone for content unless it was personally abusive. Well, enough said and I think it enough that this be brought into the open, where it belongs, and not left to unsigned notes to intimidate someone into quietly 'going away' - the message from the Gulag was chillingly clear the first time around. If i looks like list members want me out - I'll say now I've appreciated the many interesting and valuable things gained. red slider TheFarm@ns.net ------------------------end red's message ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 16:55:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: reading at SPT/New College, Oct 3 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I expect Dodie/Kevin will be posting about this, too, but thought I'd give a heads-up! since it's less than 2 weeks off : EDMUND BERRIGAN & DAVID BROMIGE read at New College, Friday October 3, 7: 30 pm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 20:10:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 In-Reply-To: <34269CC5.4EAC@sonic.net> from "Layne Russell" at Sep 22, 97 04:28:53 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While Red Slider asserts in the message recently forwarded to the list, surely he and his friends must realize that "Red Slider" *sounds* like a pseudyonym. Red asserts that he uses this name as a professional moniker, which presents a new problem to the list. But if what he says is true, and I have no reason to doubt him, then it is reasonable for him to participate under that name. But given the history of the list, and our avowed and repeatedly-stated interest in keeping discussion at a certain above-board level, it would have been nice of "Red" to introduce himself when he first started posting to the list. Just to explain that "Red Slider" is the name he goes by. We have had people before using pseudonyms whose purpose clearly was *not* to participate in an open manner. It is fair for us to be suspicious, and the Welcome message that Red and all new members receive -- & that's at the archive, etc. -- should provide enough clues for new members who want to participate in a somewhat different manner, just to provide the rest of us some accounting of that manner. I don't think that's a lot to ask. & part of what makes the handle look suspicious, Layne, is that not just "Red Slider" but "TheFarm@ns.net" looks like an attempt to hide. Herb Levy's point, if I remember right, is that *not* "The Farm" but "ns.net" that looks like part of a "virtual" email address. Which is to say that it looks like -- it may well *not* be -- a "fake" address that reroutes mail to Red Slider's real address. If it was, you would still be able to mail to Red Slider just as you do, but his "real" address might be mike@netcom.com. Using such "virtual" addresses creates an appearance of wanting to be hidden. That seems a violation of the spirit of Poetics. I believe Red Slider should be reinstated on the list. I also believe that a few words of explanation, if "Red Slider" is a true professional name and "TheFarm@ns.net" is an email address pointing to a true Internet machine, would have prevented this from the beginning, and that some interest on Red's part in familiarizing himself with the list -- as the Welcome message asks him to do -- would have helped as well. If you search the archives for the messages from "Filch" and the discussion following them, just for example, you will see why the members of the list have a right to be cautious. -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 18:10:44 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Golumbia wrote: > > While Red Slider asserts in the message recently forwarded to the list, > surely he and his friends must realize that "Red Slider" *sounds* like a > pseudyonym. Red asserts that he uses this name as a professional moniker, > which presents a new problem to the list. But if what he says is true, > and I have no reason to doubt him, then it is reasonable for him to > participate under that name. [snip] > & part of what makes the handle look suspicious, Layne, is that not just > "Red Slider" but "TheFarm@ns.net" looks like an attempt to hide. Herb > Levy's point, if I remember right, is that *not* "The Farm" but "ns.net" > that looks like part of a "virtual" email address. Which is to say that it > looks like -- it may well *not* be -- a "fake" address that reroutes mail > to Red Slider's real address. [snip] > I believe Red Slider should be reinstated on the list. I also believe > that a few words of explanation, if "Red Slider" is a true professional > name and "TheFarm@ns.net" is an email address pointing to a true Internet > machine, would have prevented this from the beginning, and that some > interest on Red's part in familiarizing himself with the list -- as the > Welcome message asks him to do -- would have helped as well. [snip] > dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu > David Golumbia your thoughtful reply midst the confusion is appreciated. I have forwarded it to Red Slider. the msg from an an unidentified list authority of some kind (it just says that he's "not Joel") in the post I put up states that "the farm" *is* in question, and also, that pen names are not a problem. I still don't get why the email address looks suspicious. just for the record here, NSNet is listed in the 916 area code section (Red lives in the Sacramento area) of the "Internet Service Providers" catalog published bimonthly by Boardwatch. "the farm"? well, many providers let you choose the name you want; Red is a big-time gardener! the name? I have seen amazing names...Red Slider? I have a jewelry designer friend whose name is Jay Roach! (and yes, it is his birth name.) so who's to say? who's to say that Layne Russell is my birth name? and does it matter? also, don't know how many states in which this is so, but in California it is legal to have one alias. so, if someone is putting forth all correspondence and publications and website under one consistent identity, why would I question this identity? it seems to me that all this could be cleaned up fairly easily. why was Red not asked a few simple questions first before being cut off? Layne ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 21:46:04 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Red's "86" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joseph S Zitt wrote: > > On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Layne Russell wrote: > > > I have emailed Red at his address (there is a website that "accompanies" > > it) for many months. how on earth could the address be nonfunctional or > > invalid, etc.? this is quite a mystery, indeed. > > Welcome to the Internet, where InterNIC, the Gang that Couldn't Route > Straight, creates and deletes sites and addresses with an incomprehensible > aptitude for destruction previously reserved for volcano gods. This > happens a *lot*, and is usually a case of a misplaced piece of paper or > someone dozing off while doing global updates (really!). > > I don't know fer shure if this has happened this time, but it is possible. Hi, everyone. I just sent the enclosed message to Red Slider, and want to repost it. I don't know what's gone down backchannel, but this issue does deserve attention. Red, I just saw Layne Russell's forward of the message you received about not having authorization to post messages from "TheFarm@NS.NET". I received a similar message several months ago when my domain name changed from "@tribeca.ios.com" to "@idt.net," and a note to the listserv corrected the problem quickly. Since you don't appear to have changed your email address, I don't understand [probably any more than you do] that message from the listserv. Nor do I remember any particularly vicious messages from you to the list [certainly nothing above about a 3 on the Beaufort scale], so that doesn't seem a credible reason for your ouster, either. As to the name issue, I wonder whether Lewis Carroll or Mark Twain would've found themselves chased out of wonderland by angry cards [sorry] or pushed off the stern of a riverboat. Novalis wouldn't stand a chance. What about Woody Allen? Englebert Humperdinck? The Artist Formerly Known As Prince? <> Not to mention some dissident writer resorting to an alias in attempting to stay alive and still communicate from a country where identity=death! Perhaps your point about the CA AG issuing a subpoena in [dare I call it?] YOUR NAME will carry some weight. I hope so. Best, Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:20:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: readers' versions of great lit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't think we need to be intimidated by anything, & surely not by readers' versions of great lit. Are we really intending to go on reproducing novels & poems from the past word for word into an infinite future? Give me a break! I append two "readers' versions" of two recognizable poems (of which one is only partially here; I got tired) by two poets who have recently been mentioned on the List, & inquire, Where is the harm in it? * * * * * * * * The great poet "disappeared." It was during a cold spell. When the day "died," the mercury In the thermometer in "its" "mouth" Began to congeal. It "grew" shorter. On other Channels one watched wolves Running through trees & bushes Or rivers with spiffy quays & locks; The poems didn't know he had "vanished," Because poems don't _know_ anything. You only go around once & you only die once & he spent an afternoon Doing just that; funny (odd) when you think About it happening to yourself. Here Today, gone tomorrow; where's the point of it? A human being's physicality allies us With our creations : systems of transportation like the Tube, Those neat little parks Brits put in the middle of squares. After you die, you _are_ what they read, if you wrote. Now he can be violated by anyone With no chance to defend himself : He shouldn't have published all those poems. He's become a ticker tape parade. Stockbrokers' assistants are a noisy lot. Scarcely better than animals, & surely more ugly. When you are poor, & own no stock, You have to get used to beauty being inedible, Although it can be licked. (This bit is about Consolations, I guess, to highlight the inconsolable). After all, if you never leave the house & live alone, you often get your own way. Where were you when you heard Yeats had died? Was it cold and dark where you were, too, Ranjit ? * * * * * * * * * I was the first person performing an act with an object Slightly south of the Mason-Dixon Line. I describe the object & tell something of how as a result of the action I performed, The entire environment was changed, leastways subjectively. It behaved ("sprawled") just as it had before, so wasn't changed, But I tell you it was changed, & that says something about me. My object was a man-made thing & I felt it tamed the whole scene. It rimed with words like itself--per-fect, ne-glect--& was tall. (Not as tall as me.) It carried the brandname of its manufacturer Wherever it went. Being the result of artifice, although made of minerals, It could never have kits or pups or chicks, or young sprouts. This is all I can recall of the incident. My husband sired these triplets. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 22:09:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Torres/Scalapino at SPT In-Reply-To: <199709230010.UAA29351@mail2.sas.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Small Press Traffic presents Leslie Scalapino Edwin Torres =46riday, September 26, 7:30 p.m. New College Theater 777 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 Leslie Scalapino=B9s writing takes place in the fickle, monumental and often beautiful present: now. (If there were no present tense, her writing alone would have invented and identified it.) But it expands back and forth, pumping like a systole, into the primitive past and the unimaginable future. We in the Bay Area are spoiled, for we get to have Leslie Scalapino with us _almost all the time._ An outstanding performer and playwright, she is the author of many books, including the recent _Green and Black: Selected Poems_ (Talisman House Books). The brilliant Nuyorican poet and performance worker makes his debut in San =46rancisco, and Small Press Traffic=B9s got him. When we read in _New York_ magazine, =B3It=B9s hard to wrestle meaning from the shreds of language he tosses out. And on paper, Torres seems to make as much sense as a Port Authority schizophrenic,=B2 we knew that Edwin Torres was our kind of guy. =B3It is obvious that Edwin Torres is the bastard love child of Mayakovsky and Parra, midwifed by Apollinaire,=B2 writes Christian Haye in _The Poetry Project Newsletter_. His books include _I Hear Things People Haven=B9t Reall= y Said_ and _Lung Poetry_. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 01:30:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: RADDLE MOON 's new address (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:17:42 -0700 From: Susan Clark Reply-To: clarkd@nospam, sfu.ca@ix.netcom.com To: selby@slip.net Cc: UB Poetics discussion group Subject: RADDLE MOON 's new address dear Spencer, dear list, please address all RADDLE MOON or GIANTESS correspondence, submissions, subscriptions, etc. to our new address: RADDLE MOON / GIANTESS Main Space 518-350 East Second Avenue Vancouver, BC V5T 4R8 CANADA And, thanks, Spencer for continuing this most useful -- and heartening -- list. Susan Susan Clark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 05:12:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Impercipient Spicer Bio Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I just want to note how tremendous the new Impercipient Lecture Series excerpt from the Lew Ellingham-Kevin Killian life of Jack Spicer is. It makes me hungry for the whole book! Congrats on a fabulous job. Ron Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 07:00:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: online resources, eh? dear mikael: next time you read to us, could you throw in the latest baseball scores? by the time the paper gets to us, its pretty old... us goats ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:02:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: uniform standards and passionate unique Comments: To: TheFarm@ns.net, layne@sonic.net dear red slider i think in the blitz of all this, you are taking this list thing perhaps more personally than meant. i don't offer this so much in a gently-chiding-i- understand-the-world way as in a sympathetic, but not wanting to see this all continue to go wildly askew way... the first time my poetics mail shut off i thought i got bumped and sent backchannel a few inquiries and felt quite censored and hurt-feelinged till i found out that NO ONE was getting mail! now i'm a veteran of a few years, i've seen that happen enough times that it is almost a predictable thing. everytime list goes down, someone sends a sad little note saying "geez why won't anyone let me have mail" or akin. i realize that isn't your issue, but it is analogous. now, re your issue, there are lots of things you are perhaps not taking into account. first, this list has a number of "well-known" (in the wierd incestous literature/ academy kind of way) people. it has lots of people no ones ever heard of. it has poets, musicians, academics. it has posts of all sorts. so, speaking from long readership, there is clearly not a Big Brother waiting out there to censor writers. but there is a pretty rational policy. people could (probably someone has tried at one time or another) subscribe under someone else's name w/o their permission and write lots of things that person would never have said. or one could subscribe as an unknown young faculty member if one had a grudge against that particular unknown faculty member and by posting cleverly do some real damage to a career. hence, i think the poetics list owners have decided no fake names. period. you are who you are so you take responsability for what you post. re last, this list has been used,and i've seen it used, as a primary research site, and though we expect things are always verified, still, papers have been written from material generated on this list. again, one could do some pretty irresponsible misinforming if one took it into one's head to do so (and i speak of a victim of this exact thing). an inflexible "real name" rule at least reduces chances of this. i don't know if listowners insist on real name appended to all posts, but i think at the least, they want to be themselves in possession of certainty that whoever you say you are is really who you are. in situation of someone from country where they are in fear of political retaliation, we had a discussion about that a while ago in another context -- someone on list who has since been taken off posted some very private material with a phone number and name attached for no real reason. one of the main fears was, in fact, the possibility that in open net environment, person whose number was violated might be subjected to net harassment. if someone from a repressive country wanted subscription to list, probably a talk with listowners/sys admins might be enough to clear matter, but it is possible that the mechanisms of listserve program simply will not allow use of pseudonyms, no matter what. program protocals may be set up to boot anything coming back as undeliverable, and since software not written at buffalo, but obtained as package, i don't think it can be rewritten. anyway, layne, the reason "TheFarm" is being assumed to be a name is that the convention, in email addresses, is to have NAME@address.type, i.e. BetsyRoss@america.com or JRoth@biguniversity.edu. if red slider's name really IS red slider, and he just uses nickname "TheFarm" as his email name, he should be ok. but i think the problem might be that we start with funky non-name name, and go to what sounds like another non-name, "red slider." the worst (so far, and hopefully period) mess we had was generated by an unknown person hiding behind a fake name -- as i'm sure you can imagine, when people are using a fake name, the possibility for abuse widens considerably. boringly yours YesMyRealNameIs, sadly, elliza ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 22 Sep 1997, Layne Russell wrote: > > here is a copy of red's email sent to me regarding the correspondence: > > -------------------------------------------*** > > Subject: > 86'd from SUNY > Date: > Fri, 19 Sep 1997 23:42:57 -0700 > From: > red slider > To: > "'dcmb@METRO.NET'" , "'layne@sonic.net'" > > [cut] > --- > > You are not authorized to send mail to the POETICS list > from > your > TheFarm@NS.NET account. You might be authorized to send to the > list > from > another of your accounts, or perhaps when using another mail > program > which > generates slightly different addresses, but LISTSERV has no way to > associate > this other account or address with yours. If you need assistance or if > you > have > any question regarding the policy of the POETICS list, please contact > the > list > owners: POETICS-request@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU. > > ------------------------ Rejected message (140 lines) > ------------------------- All--I for one have gotten this exact same message on a few occassions. My University account, from which I am subscribed, uses three different forms of my address (@osf1.gmu.edu and @mason.gmu.edu, as well as @gmu.edu). When I log in, I am connected to whichever server is least busy, unless I specify which I want.). I can only post, however, from my osf1 address (even though it is equivalent to the others, the Listserve has no way of knowing that.) The message I've quoted above is automatically sent whenever there's any confusion over an email address. I've gotten it too, and no-one's trying to kick me off the list. The followups about names appear to be beside the point. Its an address foul-up, not an identity issue. Dean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:49:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: online resources, eh? -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain For leads, try http://www.pw.org/ That's the Poets & Writers site. It might be helpful, if only as a useful point of departure. >>> Miekal And 09/22/97 10:14am >>> Wondering if anyone knows of any online resources that compile places (both academic & beyond) which are actively seeking poets & writers for reading programs, residencies, & workshops.... getting tired of reading to the goats. miekal ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 (fwd) Comments: cc: red slider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT What Dean T. says seems prob. basically right -- > The message I've quoted above is automatically sent whenever > there's any confusion over an email address. I've gotten it too, and > no-one's trying to kick me off the list. > > The followups about names appear to be beside the point. Its an > address foul-up, not an identity issue. except, I note that formerly Red had posted to the List from exactly the same address -- which leads me to think some accident occurred, such that his address, w/o intention, got dropped from the roster. The simple remedy (& a test of this "it ain't nuthin' but a mixup" reading of the situ ayshun) should be to re-subscribe. copying Red, for what worth. best, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:44:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Mirakove Subject: Pinsky on NPR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Terry Gross had Robert Pinsky on Fresh Air last night. I missed a lot of the interview because I was assembling furniture while listening and the electric screwdriver drowned him right out but most of what I did hear made me swear (example: Terry asks what he thinks of performance poetry and he says, "well I'm not *against* it--" [translate: I'm against it]). Here's the good part: In closing Terry mentioned that the biggest problem people have with poetry is that they feel they don't understand it. Pinsky says, "but people like a lot of things they don't understand... sex comes to mind." From Washington, I'm Carol Mirakove ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:01:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: readers' versions of great lit In a message dated 97-09-23 01:08:31 EDT, you write: > >I don't think we need to be intimidated by anything, & surely not by >readers' versions of great lit. Are we really intending to go on >reproducing novels & poems from the past word for word into an infinite >future? Give me a break! David, Some writers (& readers) aren't afraid to be duly intimidated. Reverence and reference aren't sins. I'm intimidated by Maximus Olson, esp. that hefty California edition. And Milton scares the bejesus out of me. Finnegan Retort Overheard in a North Beach Bar "I knew Jack Kerouac, and you're no Jack Kerouac." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:02:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: readers' versions of great lit sorry david et al., i'll take my chaucer, my dante, indeed my shakespeare, straight with no chaser. sure, i can see how those of us in society who don't read well enough or don't have the linguistic training might benefit from reading a homogenized joyce--or perhaps some time soon a dumbed-down pynchon or the like--but i object to the perpetuation of the myth that, say, the danis version of ulysses Is what joyce was about or that it Is the real thing. hey i'm shocked that a language-y guy like you, david, would be so complacent about reader's digest kind of rehash. Hmm, let me say, I wonder what Hallmark could do with some of your own lyrics.... You wouldn't mind, I presume. burt ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:24:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:44:09 -0400 from didn't ol' Eddie Poe say the ESSENTIAL thing about poetry was it's vagueness/mystery/obscurity? Was Eddie on the ball here? my current philologist hero Potebnia (of Kiev, 19th cent.) based his whole theoretical edifice on the concept of the "inner image" - a characteristic shared on different levels both by language in general and by poetry - the essential quality of which is excess of meaning or unlimited denotation/connotation - as opposed to "scientific prose" at the other end of the scale, in which the referent of a word is strictly limited - do we understand this? But I don't read this as a license for lazy mystification - poet has to shape the building - is there an usher in the house? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:18:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Red Slider Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are two distinct things about the recent Red Slider affair. One is the simple automated reply to a post from an e-mail address that's not on the list. This is no big deal, regardless of how ominous the generic text may sound to some. This message for instance was first sent through the ISP I use when I'm not home (cause I'm not home) & poetics only recognizes me@eskimo.com, so I got the bounce message. As a few folks have posted, this can be due to a lot of things that are out of any individual's hands, ISP's change things around in ways that don't affect how we use then, but can affect the way our communicaations with the outside world. The other problem with this, however, is the subsequent exchange with Slider, not simply because it's unsigned, but because in addition to the bounce message, further action was taken that seems to have been arbitrarily meted out. All that said, I'd like to note my favorite line from Slider's poetry Web site: "Biography: just like it says, a brief bibliography." Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:08:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: riffing (re: readers' versions of great lit) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT James Finnegan nicely wrote, > Some writers (& readers) aren't afraid > to be duly intimidated. > > Reverence and reference aren't sins. > I'm intimidated by Maximus Olson, > esp. that hefty California edition. And > Milton scares the bejesus out of me. skipping over knotty culdesacs of not-being-afraid-tobe-intimidated, aye zeroing in on what a fine line is JF's final one -- here's riffing on same, in prosody-of-ghazal manner (sorta) -- call it a hasty draft . . . (the form requires the poet to self-address in final couplet, ergo the "Ardeo" [a nom-de-plume]) d.i. Milton scares the bejesus out of me what a sigh Hafez squeezes out of me Shakespeare had me cowering in corners Chaucer ironed the creases out of me gotcher Keats in a careful conch? Shelley elicited teases out of me watching Walt doze long on th' lawn Emily's bees rode breezes out of me Dante daunted -- words were hushed rivers of Tagorean peace came out of me history hides (quoth Waldo) *here*? every age now wheezes out of me sometimes buttermilk sometimes cream kefir fetched tart cheeses out of me Franz's Geothe's elvin king -- such dark flame releases out of me Ginsberg sings from my t.v. screen Yasusada seizes -- out of me cuneiform bytes! sanskritic scrawl! -- dada data sneezes out of me po-laur Pinsky shrugged off p'formance? slam-dunk po no ease is? (daughtily) Lazarus' lazy loll were lost? feats like these bring "Jesus!" out of me Red October -- mid-September Greenage paints dark greases out of me look at sky or gaze at ground -- Ardeo! quit ere quease comes out of me . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 09:42:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: reading at SPT/New College, Oct 3 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 4:55 PM -0700 9/22/97, David Bromige wrote: > I expect Dodie/Kevin will be posting about this, too, but thought >I'd give a heads-up! since it's less than 2 weeks off : > > EDMUND BERRIGAN & DAVID BROMIGE > >read at New College, Friday October 3, 7: 30 pm Since David is impatient, attached is Small Press Traffic's Official Announcement of his upcoming reading. David, by the way, sent me the best bio any poet has ever sent. It's a piece in its own right and should be published, I think. It made me laugh, it made me cry . . . Dodie -------------------------------- Small Press Traffic presents Edmund Berrigan David Bromige =46riday, October 3, 7:30 p.m. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 Edmund Berrigan is the author of two Idiom chapbooks, _Counting the Hats and Ducks_ and _A Serious Earth (with drawings by William Yackulic). His poems have been published in _Arshile, Mirage #4/Period[ical], Talisman,_ and _The World._ Berrigan=8Bformerly manager of Small Press Traffic=8Bis an accomplished singer and actor, but his forte is poetry. For most of us, poetry is a second language, but for him it=B9s almost his first, a sustaining and living M.O. His best work delights and perplexes with its resolute treatment of, and analytic questioning of, pleasure and risk, danger and play. =B3Great art is creating us;/ strung down, tuned low,/ its hands are our feel &/ show us dims that glower/ like a coward retreating/ from the scene of his crime.=B2 David Bromige has had thirty books published, many by Black Sparrow, and most recently, by Avec Books (_A Cast of Tens_) and Sun & Moon (_The Harbormaster of Hong Kong_). =B3Ron Silliman says that _My Poetry_ (1980) changed the world of poetry, & stood Langpo on its head. Few have been that generous.=B2 David Bromige has been an inspiration to poets in the US, UK an= d Canada for over thirty years. He has won two NEA awards, two Canada Council awards, a Western States Book Award, a Stein, a Pushcart, was Poet Laureate of UC (all campuses) in 1965, and dubbed a Living Treasure of Sonoma County in 1995. He=B9s currently writing a novel called _Success_. =B3I published T= ed Berrigan in 1866, a typo that says volumes,=B2 he writes. =B3In 1995, at Naropa, I gave Alice Notley a single rose, not a romantic gesture, but because I=B9d been an asshole in argument the night before. And now along comes Edmund. =8COld age,=B9 quipped George Oppen, =8Cwhat a strange thing t= o happen to a boy.=B9 I=B9ll be the one with painful feet.=B2 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:51:19 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 (fwd) Comments: cc: red slider In-Reply-To: <199709231309.JAA03226@radagast.wizard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable David Israel wrts: > What Dean T. says seems prob. basically right -- [snip] > except, I note that formerly Red had posted to the List from exactly > the same address -- which leads me to think some accident occurred, > such that his address, w/o intention, got dropped from the roster. just a brief reminder to the folks out there=97 & hopefully a small corrective to the, um, paranoia that seems to be growing from DB's wonderfully witty "1984" reference (& you'd just let it go, too, you devil!)=97 re "email technology", viz. that (as always) what appears to be a simple transaction, e.g. this message sent from one address to another, actually masks a very complex system of exchange. for example, my email address is calexand@library.utah.edu =97but that address is really just a dummy which conceals a good deal of the process of getting mail to me, ostensibly (& indeed this is usually the case) simplifying the process @ the user end. at one time, mail sent to me @ this address eventually came to me on the library's Alexandria server (get it?), but then I was moved to another server, then my "context" on that server was changed, then the address standard for our organization was changed & so forth. so though my email address has apparently remained the same, the actual address that I was receiving mail @ & *posting from* has changed several times=97 not unlike the example Dean gives of accessing his mail via different addresses. each of these changes has involved some re-negotiation with Listserv, the program that powers the poetics list, & with the folks who maintain it (special thanks to Joel, but also his invisible fellows like the mysterious "not Joel"). for an example of how complex all of this really is, try to find the "show all headers" or a comparable command in your email software, & examine the "full header" of this message, i.e., the full path of its transmission beginning with my server & ending with yours. here's what I get when I view Dean's post: Received: from SpoolDir by LIB-ALEX (Mercury 1.31); 23 Sep 97 06:56:24 MDT7MST Return-path: Received: from deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu by ALEX.LIB.UTAH.EDU (Mercury 1.31); 23 Sep 97 06:56:20 MDT7MST Received: (qmail 3280 invoked from network); 23 Sep 1997 12:48:50 -0000 Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 23 Sep 1997 12:48:50 -0000 Received: from LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU by LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 20706857 for POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:48:47 -0400 Received: (qmail 14245 invoked from network); 23 Sep 1997 12:48:46 -0000 Received: from osf1.gmu.edu (129.174.1.13) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 23 Sep 1997 12:48:46 -0000 Received: from localhost by osf1.gmu.edu (5.65v4.0/1.1.8.2/07Sep94-1001AM/GMUv3) id AA05730; Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:48:46 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=3DUS-ASCII Message-ID: Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 08:48:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 (fwd) To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU X-PMFLAGS: 34078848 0 there's no reason to decipher all of this=97 suffice to say, there's more going on here than you think, & plenty of places for a problem to crop up; though, as I implied, the most likely problem is an "invisible" (or so she/he thought) change made by Red's Internet Service Provider. > The simple remedy (& a test of this "it ain't nuthin' but a mixup" > reading of the situ ayshun) should be to re-subscribe. probably this wld @ least allow Red to send/receive poetics posts. what I've had to do before is re-subscribe, & have the listserv admins bump my old address off the subscribers list. sorry to go on @ such length! guess I'm playing techie to make up for Alan Sondheim's temporarily reduced list presence ["hi Alan"]. best, Chris=97"temporarily reduced"?! .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 10:04:12 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: divers (red 86'd; Pinsky on NPR; readers' versions) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Given the interest among Listopolitans in the Red Slider case, I hope further elucidation will be forthcxoming from the Buffalo office. While it is so that some of his messages from Head Office were computer-generated, it is quite clear that at least one missive (forwarded to the List by Layne Russell) was written by a person. What is needed now is for that person to step forward and address the List, so that we can hear his/her version events, and learn whether Red Slider has been axed for rule-violations (which rules? how transgressed? on what evidence?), or whether what we are witnessing here is merely a rush of power to the head somewhere in the Snowy City. * * * * * * * Pinsky on NPR : I seldom listen to NPR, probably because I am within range of KPFA, and why eat hamburger when you can have steak? But perhaps I malign NPR. I know they offer Andrei Codrrescu. But apart from that, do they offer poets of a stripe not that of Robert Pinsky? Has any one of the following smatter of poets been aired : Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Bob Perelman, Leslie Scalapino, Bruce Andrews, Abigail Childs, Steve McCaffery, Karen Mac Cormack, Jackson Mac Low, Jennifer Moxley, Charles Bernstein, Rae Armantrout, Pierre Joris, Laura Moriarty, Michael Davidson, Harriet Mullen, Nick Piombino, Erica Hunt? If so, on which program, and at what time does it air? Thanks. * * * * * * * * I am sorry that the savage irony of my "readers' versions" posting didn't come through. It's probably because my travesties were too good. To be dull about it, we _do_ have the originals, but must take care to indicate to the students which these are, agreed. My purpose split when I started having too much fun. I will be posting versions of Olson and Milton later this week. And James, I will do you too if you will post a poemn to the List. As for a contract with Hallmark, I'm ready. It can't be worse than the movie of the book, and there are hungry mouths to be fed. And of course, as George Bowering would point out, my entire oeuvre is a travesty of his. David Idenitity, at arbitrary-coded e-ddress, Smalltown, USA. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:13:29 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR Comments: cc: red slider In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Carol Mirakove wrts: > Terry Gross had Robert Pinsky on Fresh > Air last night. I missed a lot of the > interview because I was assembling furniture > while listening and the electric screwdriver > drowned him right out [...] that sounds like: A) a practical response to a bad situation; B) an incidental critique of Pinksy & his ilk; & C) such beautiful music... [Joe Amato: "How 'bout / She sang beyond the genuis / of the c?"] -- (meanwhile in the Bat Cave) Henry wrrrrt: > didn't ol' Eddie Poe say the ESSENTIAL thing about poetry was it's > vagueness/mystery/obscurity? Was Eddie on the ball here? I'd prefer to think it implies a *different* kind of understanding or is structured by a different kind of (dialectical?) logic, as opposed to this "vagueness/mystery/obscurity"=97or at least I'd opt for that characterization right now. > my current philologist hero Potebnia (of Kiev, 19th cent.) based his > whole theoretical edifice on the concept of the "inner image" - a > characteristic shared on different levels both by language in > general and by poetry - the essential quality of which is excess of > meaning or unlimited denotation/connotation - > as opposed to "scientific prose" at the other end of the scale, in > which the referent of a word is strictly limited - Henry, are you familiar with the work of Jean Jacques LeCercle (specifically, *The Violence of Language*)? I'm not particularly taken with him, but it does seem like (some)one might be able to do something with the apparent relation between Potebnia's theory & LeCercle's "we speak language" &/or "language speaks us" model. best, Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:33:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Henry, The mystification, how can it be anything but lazy? Brave and lazy at once. The sweat comes in when one transposes their mystical experience into text. And what of chance operations? Doesn't indeterminacy, instead of precluding the mystical, reverse the dynamic? Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Tue, 23 Sep 1997, henry g wrote: > didn't ol' Eddie Poe say the ESSENTIAL thing about poetry was it's > vagueness/mystery/obscurity? Was Eddie on the ball here? > > my current philologist hero Potebnia (of Kiev, 19th cent.) based his > whole theoretical edifice on the concept of the "inner image" - > a characteristic shared on different levels both by language in general > and by poetry - the essential quality of which is excess of meaning > or unlimited denotation/connotation - > > as opposed to "scientific prose" at the other end of the scale, in which > the referent of a word is strictly limited - > > do we understand this? But I don't read this as a license for > lazy mystification - poet has to shape the building - is there an > usher in the house? > - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:42:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Red Slider Comments: To: Herb Levy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Herb, et. al. Where will I find R. Slider's poetry site? I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:02:46 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: readers' versions of great lit In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT David Bromige wrt: > I append two "readers' versions" of two recognizable poems (of which one is > only partially here; I got tired) by two poets who have recently been > mentioned on the List, & inquire, Where is the harm in it? David, you're clearly brilliant. as if we hadn't noticed already. Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:09:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: trangression? In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is needed now is for that person to >step forward and address the List, so that we can hear his/her version >events, and learn whether Red Slider has been axed for rule-violations >(which rules? how transgressed? on what evidence?) Right. What I can't understand, but I may not understand the situation, is how anyone can be kept off a public, unmoderated e-mail list. Timothy Materer, 228 Tate Hall, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:40:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Mirakove Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David Bromidge wonders: > But perhaps I > malign NPR. I know they offer Andrei Codrrescu. But apart from that, do > they offer poets of a stripe not that of Robert Pinsky? Has any one of the > following smatter of poets been aired : Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Bob > Perelman, Leslie Scalapino, Bruce Andrews, Abigail Childs, Steve McCaffery, > Karen Mac Cormack, Jackson Mac Low, Jennifer Moxley, Charles Bernstein, Rae > Armantrout, Pierre Joris, Laura Moriarty, Michael Davidson, Harriet Mullen, > Nick Piombino, Erica Hunt? If so, on which program, and at what time does > it air? Thanks. No, and don't be silly. Last spring Robert Hass was on twice (once with Pinsky). I'm sure Rita Dove has been on as well, plus Maya Angelou... Actually, I find the interviews fascinating. I suppose this is because I relish the sensation of frustration. Seriously, it's good to reinforce that the poet laureate is who you'd basically expect he'd be. Much worse than the interviews are the poetry clips on NPR. Last winter they were on an "anti-poem" kick and it seemed like Naomi Shihab Nye was in my speaker every damn week. But I don't expect much of radio in that way, i.e., I don't expect it to include non-mainstream poets. I think my expectations grow out of the fact that radio is expensive and in general it seems that the more something drips with money the more standard it's likely to be. In contrast, I expected much more "risky" (i.e., potentially offputting to the reader) poems to appear in Hass's poet's corner, but in the 100 or so weeks he's done it, I there has been ONE Sun & Moon poet by my count and few if any small-press poets. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 19:50:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matt Subject: antonio negri Comments: To: morrigan@mistral.co.uk, sondheim@panix.com, df803@freenet.carleton.ca, abz@inch.com, jason@jerasmus.demon.co.uk, S.Graham@auckland.ac.nz, Suantrai@iol.ie Comments: cc: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk, CYBERMIND@LISTSERV.AOL.COM, DERRIDA@THINK.NET, FOP-L@VM.CC.PURDUE.EDU, heidegger@THINK.NET, ips@THINK.NET, fa1918@wlv.ac.uk, B.Young@wlv.ac.uk, levinas@freelance.com, Merleau-Ponty@THINK.NET, PHENOMENOLOGY@THINK.NET, rob_mac@mistral.co.uk, lrci@easynet.co.uk, trotsky-project@lists.village.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" my apologies for cross posting and any offensive comments about what a terrible thing this is etc etc can be posted straight back to my trash. matt >FREEDOM FOR TONI NEGRI >PUTTING AN END TO THE "YEARS OF LEAD" IN ITALY > > Toni Negri has been in prison in Rome since July 1, 1997. He has >been sentenced to more than 13 years in prison, not counting another >conviction that is now in the appeal process. After residing in >France in exile since 1983, he returned to Italy voluntarily in the >hope that his action would contribute to the resolution of the problem >of the exiles and prisoners who are wanted or convicted for the >political activities of the 1970s in Italy, the so-called "years of >lead." About 180 people are still in Italian prison under these >charges and about 150 are in exile, the majority of them in France. > Toni Negri was a professor at the University of Padua and his >writings are well-known throughout the world. He was arrested on >April 7, 1979 and accused of "armed insurrection against the powers of >the State." To support this accusation, his accusers presented him as >the secret leader of the Red Brigades, the terrorist group that had >kidnapped and assassinated Aldo Moro, President of the Christian >Democratic Party. Negri has always denied this absurd accusation and >he was later formally acquitted of this charge. Charges against him >were modified numerous times. After four and a half years of >preventive detention, he was elected to parliament as a representative >of the Radical Party and was consequently released from prison. When >the Chamber of Deputies subsequently voted by a narrow margin to strip >him of his parliamentary immunity and send him back to prison, he fled >to France. The court procedures against him continued in his absence >and led to convictions under several charges and in several different >trials. At the time, Amnesty International denounced the serious legal >irregularities of Negri's trial and those of his colleagues at the >University of Padua. During his exile, Toni Negri worked in France as >a teacher at the University of Paris VIII, at the Coll >ge >International de Philosophie, and as a social science researcher. He >published numerous books during this period. > Due to his notoriety Negri has become the emblematic figure of >the Italian radical Left of the 1970s. Beginning in the Autumn of >1969 there began in Italy a period of intense social conflicts that >were exacerbated by the very ambiguous role of certain State agencies >in what was called a "strategy of tension," in other words, the >manipulation of the neo-fascist groups responsible for a deadly >bombing campaign at such sites as Piazza Fontana and the Bologna train >station. The radicalization of the Italian extra-parliamentary Left >and the social movements led a large number of activists toward the >path of wide-spread political violence and a few of them toward armed >struggle. Between 1976 and 1980, tens of thousands of activists were >pursued by the police and more than five thousand arrested. Hundreds >of long-term sentences were handed out on the basis of emergency laws >that are still in effect, including principally the so-called law of >the "repentants." This law makes the testimony of accused persons who >have "repented" the sufficient basis for the conviction of others, and >allows for them to be set free in return for having turned State's >evidence. Another emergency measure allows for preventive detention >to extend retroactively up to twelve years. This measure is radically >incompatible with the principles of the rule of law and the basic >rules of penal procedure, as they are defined by articles 5 and 6 of >the European Convention of Human Rights and protected by the European >Court of Human Rights. One can assume that the highly contestable >nature of such legislation is what has led Italy's democratic >neighbors such as France and Great Britain to have serious doubts >about these cases and not to act on the majority of the more than >seventy requests for extradition presented by Italian authorities, >regardless of the political party in power. For the same reason, >undoubtedly, the over five hundred refugees who have been accepted in >France over these years have never been disturbed or harassed. These >refugees have integrated into French society, finding work and >building families. Now they do not want to risk their futures and the >lives they have constructed in order to resolve twenty-five-year old >sentences that were handed down in such dubious emergency conditions. > The object of this appeal should not be interpreted in any way to >condone the real or supposed activities of those pursued and convicted >for their activities during the "years of lead." The refugees have >declared unambiguously that the "war" is over. "That period has >ended." A democracy worthy of that name must be able to turn the >page. Today these nearly four hundred exiles and prisoners are >excluded from Italian society. A problem of this order cannot be >resolved on a case by case basis, but must be addressed with a general >solution. > A bill for an "indulto" (a reduction of sentences by a vote of >parliament) was introduced nine years ago but has not yet come up for >a vote. Such a bill would have positive effects, but it would not >resolve the refugees' problems. The only solution for Toni Negri and >his unfortunate companions would be an amnesty. The only amnesty that >has been passed in Italy was in 1946, which Togliatti supported with >regard to the fascists. On the other hand, for the activities linked >to France's war in Algeria and concerning actions of a gravity more or >less equivalent to those committed in the 1970s in Italy, France >granted an amnesty to both the deserting soldiers and the members of >the OAS. > Since we support the principles of the rule of law and the re- >establishment of human rights everywhere for everyone, as Italy >prepares for integration into the new Europe, we ask urgently that the >Italian members of parliament respond favorably to this appeal for >clemency by passing an amnesty law as soon as possible. We also ask >the representatives of the European Union to take appropriate measures >to insure the swift release of Toni Negri. If he symbolized one era, >then his release will symbolize another, calmer one. Finally, by >repealing the series of exceptional measures that are incompatible >with the European Convention of Human Rights, Italy would live up to >its central role in the new Europe. > >------------------------------------------------------------------ > > >PETITION > Having understood the circumstances, we support the appeal in >favor of the release of Toni Negri in order to put an end to the >"years of lead" in Italy. > Toni Negri was in France for fourteen years. He sought refuge >there in 1983 after serving four and a half years of preventive >detention in Italy. He has now returned voluntarily to Italy where he >has been sentenced to prison for eminently political reasons on the >basis of an arsenal of emergency measures (such as convictions based >solely on the testimony of "repentants" and extended preventive >detention) that are incompatible with the European Convention of Human >Rights. > He has been in prison since July 1, 1997 and his release (which >will likely be only a work release) has still not come about. > Four hundred people are excluded from Italian society on the >basis of political activity conducted twenty years ago. The more than >150 refugees in France do not want to destroy the lives they have >constructed in order to address these sentences based on emergency >measures. European authorities on the Right and the Left have not >extradited the refugees back to Italy, and they have thus expressed >sotto voce their disdain for the Italian procedures. > The wide-spread political violence of the Italian social >struggles, which has been conflated under the label of Italian >"terrorism," is something that ended long ago. Can a democracy apply >to those accused of political crimes (twenty years after the fact) >measures more severe than those used in common criminal cases? > The release of Toni Negri must finally lead toward an amnesty >that has been too long in coming. Only the abrogation of the >emergency measures and the parliamentary passage of an amnesty bill >can finally put an end to the "years of lead." As long as these >conditions are not met, we urge the countries of the European Union to >guarantee the residency of the Italian exiles. We ask finally that >the members of parliament of the other countries of the Union and >those of the Strasbourg Assembly do all they can to resolve these >problems. > >Please send signatures to Yann Moulier Boutang by fax or e-mail. >fax: (011.331) 45.41.53.91 >email: Yann.M.Boutang@wanadoo.fr > >Name Function or Title Address and telephone, fax, or email > > > > >Among those who have already signed this petition: >E. Balibar (philosopher), J.L. Benhamias (General Secretary of the >Green Party in France), O. Btourn (editor at Editions Fayard), P. >Boulez (musician), Ch. Bourgois (editor), P.A. Boutang (film producer), >R. de Ceccatty (writer), G. Chatelet (mathematician), M. Chemillier- >Gendreau (jurist), D. Cohn-Bendit (writer), R. Debray (writer), J. >Derrida (philosopher), C. Dolto-Toltitch (doctor), V. Forrester >(writer), S. Gisselbrecht (Inserm), G. Kejman (lawyer), A. Lipietz >(economist), B. Marger (Cit de la Musique), J.F. Masson (doctor), F. >Matta (artist), G. Perault (philosopher), M. Plon (psychoanalyst), A. >Querrien (urbanist), J. Ranciere (philosopher), E. Roudinesco (writer), >S. Silberman (film producer), Ph. Sollers (writer), G. Soulier >(jurist), and I. Stengers (philosopher). > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ matt_lee@mistral.co.uk http://www3.mistral.co.uk/matt_lee "here, then, once" Eye for an I (I4i) - on going drafts of work in progress To get it press reply and write I4i-subscribe ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:01:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Readers' versions of great lit Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When I was a kid I used to read Classic Comics (I think they were called), the ultimate readers' versions. These were about three times the width of ordinary comics (you need a few pages for Les Miserables), with a lot more words than most comics, although must of the narrative had been converted to dialogue bubbles. Intellectual kids like me read this stuff instead of horror comics--less likely to induce nightmares, and good for you, too! Sometimes, I later learned, the plots were wildly rearranged to protect the innocent. It was nice having pictures, but fortunately these didn't stick--I don't even remember what their Captain Ahab looked like. I don't think they ever did Joyce, but it would be a worthy project: an adult version that could be finished in a lunchtime. Proust would probably take a week. And the possibilities for advertizing sales go way beyond ant farms. On a different note, does anybody but me remember the Gilbert Shelton illustrated editions of Chaucer's pilgrims? One of them, the Miller's Tale, if memory serves, was done in honest-to-god Middle English. And I do remember his Alisoun, the miller's wife--quite a babe. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:00:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: HERE Poetry Readings (NYC) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" THE EAR@HERE! ***PLEASE NOTE: THE EAR INN READING SERIES HAS MOVED!!!*** BEGINNING OCTOBER 4, 1997 THE SERIES WILL BE HELD AT HERE--CENTER FOR INDEPENDENT ART! HERE IS LOCATED AT 145 6TH AVENUE BETWEEN SPRING AND BROOME . READINGS WILL TAKE PLACE ON SATURDAYS AT 3:00 PM Please support our new series and join us for our grand opening reading on October 4! Coordinators for this series are Robert Fitterman, Liz Fodaski, Stacy Doris, & Charles Borkhuis. Continuing support of this series is provided by the Segue Foundation. Funding is made possible by support from the Literature Program of the New York State Council on the Arts. Help support HERE--come early for lunch, stay late for drinks! Segue @ Here: October & November Readings HERE Center for Independent Art 145 Sixth Avenue bet. Spring & Broome (212) 647-0202 OCT 4: TOM RAWORTH, ANN LAUTERBACH Tom Raworth is from London and is the author of forty books, most recently Clean & Well Lit (Selected Poems 1987-1995) from Roof Books. Ann Lauterbach is the author of Clamor and And For Example among many other titles, and has a new book due out in October. OCT 11: BRENDA COULTAS, TIM DAVIS Brenda Coultas is the author of Early Films (Rodent Press). Her writing has appeared in The World, Mirage, Big Rain, and several other publications. Tim Davis' latest chapbook is My Life In Politics or The History of N=A=R=R=A=T=I=V=E Film (Object/poetscoop). OCT 18: CYDNEY CHADWICK, LISA ROBERTSON West Coast writer Cydney Chadwick is the author of one full-length collection and five chapbooks. Her most recent title, Interims, was published by 3300 Press. She is the editor/publisher of Avec. A founding member of the Kootenay School of Writing in Vancouver, Lisa Robertson is the author XEclogue (Tsunami Editions). OCT 25: CHARLES BERNSTEIN, MELANIE NEILSON Charles Bernstein is the host of LINEbreak, 30 radio interviews/readings, now available on the web at writing.upenn.edu/epc/LINEbreak. Melanie Neilson's books include Civil Noir and Natural Facts. She is co-editor of Big Allis. NOV 1: DAVID BROMIGE, BRIAN KIM STEFANS David Bromige is the author of The Harbormaster of Hong Kong (Sun & Moon), A Cast of Tens (Avec Books), and From the First Century (Cricket Press), among others. Brian Kim Stefans is the editor of Arras, which will have its on-line premiere in Winter 1998. Poems are forthcoming in Torque, Lingo, and the Asian Pacific American Journal. NOV 8: JEROME SALA. RICK MOODY Jerome Sala is the author of many contemporary classics. His latest volume is Raw Deal (New & Selected Poems 1980-94) from Another Chicago Press. Rick Moody is the author of several novels including The Ice Storm and Purple America-- the former is a soon-to-be-released film by Ang Lee. Rick has declared that he will be reading his poetry on this day. NOV 15: JOHANNA DRUCKER, JUDITH GOLDMAN Johanna Drucker has been publishing since 1972, frequently using experimental formats and typography, and has several dozen books including scholarly, critical, and creative titles. Judith Goldman has been published in numerous magazines including Chain and Torque, and she has a chapbook, adversities of outerlife (poetscoop). NOV 22: BOOK PARTY/BENEFIT FOR RADDLE MOON on publication of its 22 New ^To North America French Poets issue. Norma Cole, Susan Clark, and more local celebrities such as Jena Osman, Fiona Templeton +++ are expected. NOV 29: THANKSGIVING WEEKEND- NO READING DEC 6: PIERRE JORIS, NICOLE PEYRAFITTE, COLE SWENSEN Pierre Joris is the author of Turbulence (St. Lazaire), co-editor of Poems for the Millenium (U. of Calif.) and translator of Paul Celan's Breathturn (Sun & Moon). Nicole Peyrafitte is a poet, painter, and singer living in Albany, NY. Cole Swensen is the author of Noon (Sun & Moon) and a translator of French poetry. DEC 13: ROBERT KOCIK, CECILIA VICUNA Robert Kocik: vicarious, histrionic, choral poetry. Cecilia Vicuqa's latest book is The Precarious-Quipoem (Wesleyan). DEC 20: ROB FITTERMAN, MAC WELLMAN Rob Fitterman's Metropolis (1-15) is due from Sun & Moon; other books: Ameresque and 33 States. Mac Wellman's recent plays: Infrared and FNULNU. A 1996 Lila Wallace--Reader's Digest Award winner. DEC 27: HOLIDAY WEEKEND--NO READING JAN 3: HOLIDAY WEEKEND--NO READING JAN 10: DREW GARDNER, GEOFFREY O'BRIEN Drew Gardner is the author of The Cover (Leave). Geoffrey O'Brien is the author of Floating Cities, Selected Poems 1978-1995 (Talisman) and The Phantom Empire (Norton). JAN 17: EILEEN MYLES, MICHAEL GOTTLIEB Eileen Myles' most recent book is School of Fish from Black Sparrow. Michael Gottlieb is the author of New York, Local Color/Eidetic Deniers, 96 Tears, and Pantographic. JAN 24: SIANNE NGAI, KIM ROSENFIELD Sianne Ngai is the editor/publisher of Black Bread literary magazine. She has published several chapbooks including DISCREDIT (Burning Deck). Kim Rosenfield is the author of Rx and Cool Clean Chemistry (Leave Books) and A Self-Guided Walk (Object/poetscoop). JAN 31: GROUP READING FOR THE XUL READER; AN ANTHOLOGY OF ARGENTINE POETRY 1980-1996 Readers for this event include Molly Weigel, Gary Racz, Kathy Kopple, Reinaldo Laddaga, and Ernesto Grossman. Readings will be both in Spanish and in English. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:15:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: The Document of Concern in the Case of Red Slider 86'd Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I thank all those who have written in to explain what a portion of Red Slider's problem may be. The workings of the computer & its various softwares are fascinating indeed. However, there is a danger that these explanations will also function to explain away the following, which I re-post to the List because some of those concerned give no sign of having read it. (Herb Levy, thanks for your recent post on this topic,a post with which I am in complete agreement.) >Received Today: > > > >---------- >From: Temporary Name[SMTP:poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu] >Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:13 PM >To: thefarm@ns.net >Subject: "TheFarm" > > >Dear Sir, > >Your own concern as to who wrote the note is quite interesting in this >context. According to our policy, we must know the real name of all >subscribers. "The Farm" is not a sufficient userid for this purpose. We >have no problem with handles, pen names or the like; but we reserve the >right to ask for the legal names, and addresses if necessary, of all >subscribers with indeterminate userids. We recognize this greatly limits >the focus and possibilities of our list but are confident that there are >many other lists with different policies on this point for those >interested. If you read the original note we sent again you will note that >all that we said that we were writing as a matter of list policy and that >the content of your messages were related to this; if we didn't mean that >we would not have said it. By the way this note is not written by "Joel". > >-------------------------------- So, what were those contents? I have read Red's posts, & found nothing as offensive as much stuff that has passed muster before; which of his posts did I miss, that "were related" to his being axed? Please, Not-Joel, be so good as to refer us to these messages of Red, so that we may (one hopes) find ourselves in agreement with your action in this matter, and gain a clearer notion of just how far any one of us can go before we step over the line you draw in the virtual desert. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:09:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:33:06 -0500 from On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:33:06 -0500 p. durgin said: > Henry, > The mystification, how can it be anything but lazy? Brave and >lazy at once. The sweat comes in when one transposes their mystical >experience into text. And what of chance operations? Doesn't >indeterminacy, instead of precluding the mystical, reverse the dynamic? I wasn't referring to the mystical - just mystification, as in lazy or purposeful mumbo-jumbo. Purposeful obscurity. I don't go for that. Am extremely old-fashioned in my opinions about this. Don't think "language writes us", "language liberates us", etc. I like the author who fills every nook & cranny & syllable & nuance with purposeful intent. I also know this is impossible. But I think Joyce tried to do it. I think he learned it from the scholastics & the cathedral builders, whose every move was governed by dialectical debate. The apse of Amiens a resolution of contradictory approaches in 2 earlier constructions. Problem-solving. Explicit statement. "Progress" in poetry might involve delimiting just such contradictions in past work & resolving them, synthesizing them. Does our atmosphere of "experiment" foster this kind of discipline? Or is it every mumbo-jumboer for him-herself? Just thinkin' out loud here... [loosen up Hank, said Roland, winding his horn] - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:40:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It wasn't always so. There was a time, maybe twenty years ago, when Susan Howe produced a weekly series of readings on WBAI, New York's then Pacifica station, and I produced poetry specials. I remember doing Armand Schwerner reading the entire (as of that date) The Tablets, a lengthy interview and reading with Paul Metcalf, and two 2 1/2 hour shows of resurrected and remastered readings by Jack Spicer (who did his own radio show 15 years before that on San Francisco's Pacifica station). At 02:40 PM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >David Bromidge wonders: >> But perhaps I >> malign NPR. I know they offer Andrei Codrrescu. But apart from that, do >> they offer poets of a stripe not that of Robert Pinsky? Has any one of the >> following smatter of poets been aired : Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Bob >> Perelman, Leslie Scalapino, Bruce Andrews, Abigail Childs, Steve McCaffery, >> Karen Mac Cormack, Jackson Mac Low, Jennifer Moxley, Charles Bernstein, Rae >> Armantrout, Pierre Joris, Laura Moriarty, Michael Davidson, Harriet Mullen, >> Nick Piombino, Erica Hunt? If so, on which program, and at what time does >> it air? Thanks. > >No, and don't be silly. Last spring Robert Hass was on twice (once >with Pinsky). I'm sure Rita Dove has been on as well, plus Maya Angelou... > >Actually, I find the interviews fascinating. I suppose this is because I >relish the sensation of frustration. Seriously, it's good to reinforce >that the poet laureate is who you'd basically expect he'd be. > >Much worse than the interviews are the poetry clips on NPR. Last winter >they were on an "anti-poem" kick and it seemed like Naomi Shihab Nye >was in my speaker every damn week. > >But I don't expect much of radio in that way, i.e., I don't expect it to >include non-mainstream poets. I think my expectations grow out of the >fact that radio is expensive and in general it seems that the more >something drips with money the more standard it's likely to be. In >contrast, I expected much more "risky" (i.e., potentially offputting to >the reader) poems to appear in Hass's poet's corner, but in the 100 or so >weeks he's done it, I there has been ONE Sun & Moon poet by my count and >few if any small-press poets. > >Carol > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:45:35 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Red Slider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit p. durgin wrote: > > Herb, et. al. > > Where will I find R. Slider's poetry site? > > I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I Red's site is at: http://www.ns.net/~TheFarm/poetry/Poetry_Lobby.htm#topmark (His site is listed along with many other Poetics list members' sites on my poetry links library page: http://www.sonic.net/layne/poetrylnk.html) Layne Layne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 11:45:56 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Red Slider MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit p. durgin wrote: > > Herb, et. al. > > Where will I find R. Slider's poetry site? > > I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I Red's site is at: http://www.ns.net/~TheFarm/poetry/Poetry_Lobby.htm#topmark (His site is listed along with many other Poetics list members' sites on my poetry links library page: http://www.sonic.net/layne/poetrylnk.html) Layne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:34:32 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: LeCercle/liberation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable Henry wrt: > Don't think "language writes us", "language liberates us", etc. small pt. of clarification for the list: I'm not sure LeCercle's position is so much liberatory as explanatory=97& with that in mind, his model seems very much like that of Potebnia, at least @ this level of generality. that one's my fault for not citing more extensively. Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. nominative press collective calexand@library.utah.edu P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 12:28:48 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Red Slider' url MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit p. durgin wrote: > > Herb, et. al. > > Where will I find R. Slider's poetry site? > > I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I Red's site is at: http://www.ns.net/~TheFarm/poetry/Poetry_Lobby.htm#topmark (His site is listed along with many other Poetics list members' sites on my poetry links library page: http://www.sonic.net/layne/poetrylnk.html) Layne p.s. please notice "TheFarm" is the name of both Red's site and email, both on NSNet of Sacramento, CA. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:43:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Spencer Selby Subject: list feedback MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please post all feedback or info for the mag list to me directly. Thanks, Spencer Selby ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:55:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: The Left-field Bleachers Red is back. over there in the left-field bleachers . thanx to everybody who gave me backchannel support during my little poeticus interruptus. (and my local post office wants to know if I will also receive the 'Santa' mail this year?) The matter is now in pretty good hands. The boyz are over at EPC beating the crap outta.... well we'll see who/what. And that's the real message. Some are checking, I've made formal complaint to the Director. & That's enough. If it's stuff for the list to deal with (and there are many puzzle pieces) you know now, I will not go quietly into this good net. thanx again for all the help and support. Now what are you all staring at? GET BACK TO WORK! Red Slider (a real guy - does anybody doubt that?) The Farm@ns.net (a real&expensive service) Author of "Pissy Notes & Other Voidances" ps. Red Skelton 1913-1997 'God Bless' ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 14:51:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: Readers' versions of great lit In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970923120109.006f2390@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII mark weiss wrote: << I don't think they ever did Joyce, but it would be a worthy project: an adult version that could be finished in a lunchtime. >> There's a local comics artist by the name of David Lasky who's done a 9-page mini-comic version of Ulysses. Two frames for each of chapter. It's really surprisingly accurate for that level of brevity. Quite a kick. Lasky has also done a more biographical comic on Joyce, published by Aeon Press. I believe someone's also done a comics version of the first section of Finnegans Wake. Pretty sure actually, though I can't recall the artists name at the moment. Can dig up the info on these if anyone's interested. Anyhow, preferable to Rose's grammarian renderings in both cases I would venture. BC ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 15:13:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Readers' versions of great lit In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I hope these are wonderful works of art in their own right, whatever their connection to the original. But I'm struck once again by the plight of the social satirist in the land of the pet rock: America tends to parody itself inadvertently faster and more accurately than the most mordant of wits. At 02:51 PM 9/23/97 -0700, you wrote: >mark weiss wrote: > ><< I don't think they ever did Joyce, but it would be a worthy project: an >adult version that could be finished in a lunchtime. >> > >There's a local comics artist by the name of David Lasky who's done a >9-page mini-comic version of Ulysses. Two frames for each of chapter. It's >really surprisingly accurate for that level of brevity. Quite a kick. >Lasky has also done a more biographical comic on Joyce, published by Aeon >Press. > >I believe someone's also done a comics version of the first section of >Finnegans Wake. Pretty sure actually, though I can't recall the artists >name at the moment. Can dig up the info on these if anyone's interested. > >Anyhow, preferable to Rose's grammarian renderings in both cases I would >venture. > > > >BC > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 13:26:29 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Red Slider's url p.s. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit regarding the poetry site url of Red Slider ( http://www.ns.net/~TheFarm/poetry/Poetry_Lobby.htm#topmark ), please note "TheFarm" is the name of both Red's site and email, both on NSNet of Sacramento, CA. also of note is that Red emailed me today (9/23) that he tried resubscribing yesterday and nothing has happened. "no dice" as he says. Layne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:13:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR Comments: To: henry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Henry, Points well taken, but I, for one, have trouble with a notion of poetry progressing. How can its effectiveness be theoreticized out of the very private and obscure author/reader relation? Purposeful intent meets with the same solopsitic ruts as the cathedral builders. What Joyce does resembles the sort of thouroughness you suggest, but it is only as effective for some. And why? Not for anyone to say as much as it is for everyone to say. Agreed, though. Lazy writing isn't hard to spot. But it comes in all flavors, don't it? Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 18:24:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Pseudonyms/Bad Addresses/Confidentiality/Knot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dodie Bellamy writes: >I didn't see the beginning of this thread, having been out of town and not >being able to face the 150+ old poetics messages that awaited me, but if >I'm surmising right what's being discussed here--I believe that the issue >is that pseudonyms are not allowed on the Poetics List--I don't think >there's anything *personal* being/having been done to RS. Dodie is right. The Poetics List reserves the right to ask for the real names and addresses of all subscribers. We take this as a basic responsibility of administering this list and facilitating the automatic and unedited distribution of so many messages (up to 50 a day) to so many people (about 500). I have no problem with handles, pen names or the like, and recognize that this policy limits the focus and possibilities of the Poetics List. For those interested, there are many other places on the Internet with different policies on this point: pseudonyms are a major dynamic on many web sites. I very much appreciated Eliza McGrand's and David Golumbia's post on this matter, and they together highlight a number of concerns I share. Certainly, the use of pseudonyms might be fine in a number of circumstances and I realize the Poetics List has a relatively conservative stance on this. But it should be noted that pseudonyms and pseudoaddresses on the Internet are not the same as in the age of print. Handles, web names, and phantom addresses on the Internet pose a different set of problems and no doubt a new set of possibilities. Nor is the use of a handle on a fantasy site the same as the use of the same handle in a newsgroup, chat line, moderated list (where an editor reads all messages before they are posted), a local list where people are in frequent face-to-face contact, a literary magazine or other edited web publication, or on an unedited listserve with the stated interests and purposes as this one (and, again, Eliza detailed some of the issues I am concerned about here). Certainly, if we ask a new subscriber for further information on their userid, name, or address and they "prefer not to" say, there is no reason to make any value judgement on this choice. As to "bad" addresses, and as several people have noted, when the Poetics List has a problem with an address, we often don't have the time to figure out what went wrong or to send out additional notes about the status of the address. We have to rely on subscribers to provide us with working and authenticatable addresses. All subscription information and correspondence relating to subscriptions on the list is confidential. The exception to this is the list of current subscribers, which can be obtained with the "review poetics" command. Please use this command to find addresses of subscribers rather than making an inquiry of the whole list. Finally, let me end with this: My name is Charles Bernstein and I am Listowner of the Poetics List. I take the responsibility of being listowner quite seriously, probably too seriously. As I've said before, it can often seem to interfere with my ability to participate in the list as fully as I might otherwise enjoy. While I discuss list policies and procedures with those who generously volunteer their time to help me with list management, I take full and personal responsibility for decisions relating to the protocols and functioning of the list. My office address is 438 Clemens Hall, Buffalo, NY 14260 on the North Campus of SUNY-Buffalo, where I am employed. My phone number at UB is 716-645-3810; if I am not available, a message can be left. I can be most easily reached at the email address listed in the header of this message. Due to the volume of Poetics-related subscription mail (mostly related to bounced mail), I prefer if questions about the list be sent to a special administrative account set up for the Poetics List: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu. Access to this account is restricted to those working directly with me on the list. -- I take it that all of this are given facts to every subscriber on this list. I find it quite ironic, and at the same time chilling, that a subscriber who prefers not to give the Poetics List an address or any information about his name other than a nonspecific userid, complains that no personal name was given in correspondence from the Poetics List. But the point of calling attention to the Personal Name ("temporary name") that appears before that @ of the address -- the point, that is, of not signing the message sent to this subscription address-- was just to emphasize the fungibility of names in this environment and to make apparent the need to know to whom on is exchanging messages. Of course this is unsettling: it unsettles me. The reaction of the subscriber suggests the value of the policy. Furthermore, I take it as a given that personal communications between individuals, correspondence about subscriptions, as well as other writings by individuals, are not to be reproduced on this or any list without the permission of the author. In this instance, in the letter that was forwarded to this list, we have an example of what happens when that principle is not followed. Indeed, I have only just realized, in reading one of the recent posts, that a word was elided in one sentence of a letter sent to one of the list subscribers: >if you read the original note we sent again you will note that >>all that we said that we were writing as a matter of list policy and that >>the content of your messages were word dropped: NOT >related to this In conjunction with that original note, it might have been apparent that "content" *has never been* and *is not* an issue in this instance, especially since both notes make clear what the issue is. Of course the elision of "not" is regrettable; but this note was not intended to be reproduced twice to 500 people and scrutinized for unintended meaning. Furthermore, there were a number of ways that the possible misinterpretation of the dropped "not" might have been clarified, short of sending the note out to the entire list. In any case, at the other end of the line at Poetics is me, among others, and I think it's fair to say that it's unlikely that any of this is about anything other than what I have stated here. And if you want to know where I am to discuss it, you know that too, so send me an email or come by to see me. I'm around (if too often neither here or there but someplace else and in a knot). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 16:15:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me Charles, why you are here beginning a (rather transparent) rationalization for probably failed policy and certainly misapplied ones is beyond me. In the first place, a formal complaint has been made to the Director, and it might have been appropriate to leave these matters for his investigation. Second, you could have communicated with me (since you have forbidden me to communicate with you) on the 'missing not' - we might have discovered something. But there is nothing now but to take this bit of informal time and deal with piece meal - I will not address most of Charles' List Owner rationalizations for policy and such - there are much better analysts here than I who can see what is going on. I'll simply address the 'not knot' and leave it there for now - I didn't even want to do that much. If there was any eliding it was somewhere/somehow on Charles' side, and could have been an unfortunate typo of his (or do we want to explore the theory that the machine just happened to drop this critical term? Or does someone wish to speculate on which one of us is lying?) His critical 'NOT' was not found here on receipt. Of course, if the letters had not been anonymous and I could have asked my questions - or if it had been worth Charles' time to deal with these matters (he instructed me not to communicate with him or Joel at their addresses on these matters on the basis of his time) we might have been able to straighten it out. But Charles' your list of particulate locations and identities does not erase your communications (are you the not-joel?) or your handling of my letter to Joel and your obvious remoteness in the officiate of your list owning position. I'm starting to smell some smoke. Better to leave it with the investigation, if there is to be one, and what ever list discussion might ensue on substantive issues (I find most of yours rather secondary to questions David, I and others have rased). Dodie, by her own admission didn't really know what was going on, no? Hardly a solid foundation. Anyway, once again, here is the second posting of the anonymous, 'Temporary Name' communication, exactly as I recieved it - no changes, no elides. And, I think a siezure of all records at the server site on anything remotely pertaining to these matters is certainly now in order (don't want any machine erasing files problems - could happen). I suggest these be conducted from Dr. Glazier's office. Just my suggestion. Red Slider (real name, real guy) TheFarm (real&expensive service) Author of "Pissy Notes & Other Voidances" ---------- From: Temporary Name[SMTP:poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu] Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:13 PM To: thefarm@ns.net Subject: "TheFarm" Dear Sir, Your own concern as to who wrote the note is quite interesting in this context. According to our policy, we must know the real name of all subscribers. "The Farm" is not a sufficient userid for this purpose. We have no problem with handles, pen names or the like; but we reserve the right to ask for the legal names, and addresses if necessary, of all subscribers with indeterminate userids. We recognize this greatly limits the focus and possibilities of our list but are confident that there are many other lists with different policies on this point for those interested. If you read the original note we sent again you will note that all that we said that we were writing as a matter of list policy and that the content of your messages were related to this; if we didn't mean that we would not have said it. By the way this note is not written by "Joel". >> Joel, I presume this unsigned note from the 'list server' is from you? (and >> i do like to have names with my notes - even if they are handles) >> >>> Please try to keep in mind that the Poetics List is designed so that no one >>> contributes more than a few messages on a given day. Also, we ask that all >>> subscribers subscribe with their "real" names. While there is much lively >>> internet activity using "handles" this is not the direction we want for >>> this particular list. Unfortunately, due to the volume of requests and >>> messages we get, we may not have told you this when you first subscribed. >>> Thank you for your interest in the list and your lively contributions. >>> >> While my 'average' list participation is less than 2 ('a few') (26/17 days >> for sept.) i also see that it is disproportionately large? Though I do note >> several others with some heavy useage on particular days and do wonder if >> they received similar communications? I will endeavor to keep my postings >> within limits. >> >> I do, however, wonder by whom, and on what basis, my name is being >> challenged? I find it a bit insulting and wonder on what presumptive basis >> someone things it does not as my "real name". I use my name responsibly, >> it is a pointer to reliable communications with me on any matter and is a >> name under which I submit print & electronic poetry. If you or anyone has a >> problem with that I gladly invite them to communicate with me directly with >> me and identify themselves - by handle or real name. >> >> On the other hand, if it is the content of my messages which seem >> inappropriate or off point then I would certainly like to hear that >> directly said - backchannel or otherwise. Other than a single message from >> someone who apparently felt uncomfortable with a question on poetics and >> 'protected group' access, I have received no communications suggesting I'm >> 'round the bend', out of topic or otherwise 'off my meds'. Quite the >> contrary in backchannel, but I would certainly like to know if anyone feels >> that is the case. >> >> thank you, >> >> red slider > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:07:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear List, As a member of the list without any allegiances whatsoever, with no interest whatsoever in any poetry wars, with absolutely no personal friendships with anyone whatsoever on the list, maybe I can speak with the authority of an irrelevant outsider. I think that Red Slider should direct his paranoia elsewhere. I for one am tired of him. George Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:23:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me In-Reply-To: <01BCC83B.F6C40B40@ppp38.ns.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think that this might be a good time to take this backchannel. As it's still public, for the record, early in my list membership (not so long aqo) I found myself unable to send or receive. I had sent some mildly snippy posts, and, being an American, I immediately proceeded to paranoia (it's the national sport)--there was a conspiracy, I was being ejected, punished, whatever. Of course it was a technical problem. But paranoia is much more satisfying--behind it is the assumption of one's own importance or power to be perceived as a threat. I don't identify myself as a language poet, and I've only met The Listmaster a couple of times (Listmaster is great, sounds like startrek). My experience has been that the list is run very fairly and with great generosity. I doubt that anybody gets rich or powerful by providing the rest of us with this venue. One of my friends likes to counter his own paranoia with generosity of spirit by telling himself not to assume malice when folly is an adequate explanation. I would change the second clause to "folly or a glitch." At 04:15 PM 9/23/97 -0700, you wrote: >Charles, > >why you are here beginning a (rather transparent) rationalization for >probably failed policy and certainly misapplied ones is beyond me. In the >first place, a formal complaint has been made to the Director, and it might >have been appropriate to leave these matters for his investigation. Second, >you could have communicated with me (since you have forbidden me to >communicate with you) on the 'missing not' - we might have discovered >something. But there is nothing now but to take this bit of informal time >and deal with piece meal - I will not address most of Charles' List Owner >rationalizations for policy and such - there are much better analysts here >than I who can see what is going on. I'll simply address the 'not knot' and >leave it there for now - I didn't even want to do that much. > >If there was any eliding it was somewhere/somehow on Charles' side, and >could have been an unfortunate typo of his (or do we want to explore the >theory that the machine just happened to drop this critical term? Or does >someone wish to speculate on which one of us is lying?) His critical 'NOT' >was not found here on receipt. Of course, if the letters had not been >anonymous and I could have asked my questions - or if it had been worth >Charles' time to deal with these matters (he instructed me not to >communicate with him or Joel at their addresses on these matters on the >basis of his time) we might have been able to straighten it out. But >Charles' your list of particulate locations and identities does not erase >your communications (are you the not-joel?) or your handling of my letter >to Joel and your obvious remoteness in the officiate of your list owning >position. I'm starting to smell some smoke. Better to leave it with the >investigation, if there is to be one, and what ever list discussion might >ensue on substantive issues (I find most of yours rather secondary to >questions David, I and others have rased). Dodie, by her own admission >didn't really know what was going on, no? Hardly a solid foundation. >Anyway, once again, here is the second posting of the anonymous, >'Temporary Name' communication, exactly as I recieved it - no changes, no >elides. And, I think a siezure of all records at the server site on >anything remotely pertaining to these matters is certainly now in order >(don't want any machine erasing files problems - could happen). I suggest >these be conducted from Dr. Glazier's office. Just my suggestion. > >Red Slider (real name, real guy) >TheFarm (real&expensive service) >Author of "Pissy Notes & Other Voidances" > >---------- >From: Temporary Name[SMTP:poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu] >Sent: Friday, September 19, 1997 4:13 PM >To: thefarm@ns.net >Subject: "TheFarm" > > >Dear Sir, > >Your own concern as to who wrote the note is quite interesting in this >context. According to our policy, we must know the real name of all >subscribers. "The Farm" is not a sufficient userid for this purpose. We >have no problem with handles, pen names or the like; but we reserve the >right to ask for the legal names, and addresses if necessary, of all >subscribers with indeterminate userids. We recognize this greatly limits >the focus and possibilities of our list but are confident that there are >many other lists with different policies on this point for those >interested. If you read the original note we sent again you will note that >all that we said that we were writing as a matter of list policy and that >the content of your messages were related to this; if we didn't mean that >we would not have said it. By the way this note is not written by "Joel". > > >>> Joel, I presume this unsigned note from the 'list server' is from you? >(and >>> i do like to have names with my notes - even if they are handles) >>> >>>> Please try to keep in mind that the Poetics List is designed so that no >one >>>> contributes more than a few messages on a given day. Also, we ask that >all >>>> subscribers subscribe with their "real" names. While there is much >lively >>>> internet activity using "handles" this is not the direction we want for >>>> this particular list. Unfortunately, due to the volume of requests and >>>> messages we get, we may not have told you this when you first >subscribed. >>>> Thank you for your interest in the list and your lively contributions. >>>> >>> While my 'average' list participation is less than 2 ('a few') (26/17 >days >>> for sept.) i also see that it is disproportionately large? Though I do >note >>> several others with some heavy useage on particular days and do wonder >if >>> they received similar communications? I will endeavor to keep my >postings >>> within limits. >>> >>> I do, however, wonder by whom, and on what basis, my name is being >>> challenged? I find it a bit insulting and wonder on what presumptive >basis >>> someone things it does not as my "real name". I use my name >responsibly, >>> it is a pointer to reliable communications with me on any matter and is >a >>> name under which I submit print & electronic poetry. If you or anyone >has a >>> problem with that I gladly invite them to communicate with me directly >with >>> me and identify themselves - by handle or real name. >>> >>> On the other hand, if it is the content of my messages which seem >>> inappropriate or off point then I would certainly like to hear that >>> directly said - backchannel or otherwise. Other than a single message >from >>> someone who apparently felt uncomfortable with a question on poetics and >>> 'protected group' access, I have received no communications suggesting >I'm >>> 'round the bend', out of topic or otherwise 'off my meds'. Quite the >>> contrary in backchannel, but I would certainly like to know if anyone >feels >>> that is the case. >>> >>> thank you, >>> >>> red slider >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:20:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: The Document of Concern in the Case of Red Slider 86'd the "content of your messages were related to this" means having "subscribe" "unsubscribe" etc. caused reader to axe, and also, that content of message TO RED FROM LISTSERV, i.e. "your message" as distinct from "joe schmoe's message (message to joe schmoe" were related to list policy. there is NO BIG BROTHER. NO THOUGHT POLICE. NO ONE READ RED SLIDER'S POSTS AND SAID "AXE HIM"!!! ok!!!!!!!???? it is a matter of the way the program is built, and the protocals it uses to screen the mass of information coming at it. charles et al GOT this program, already written by someone else, sealed in celophane, as it were, off the shelf (though i think listserv is actually shareware and free). someone with MASSIVE amounts of computer know-how WROTE THIS PROGRAM. it is completely unrealistic to take charles et al to task for standard features of program -- i think they are doing splendidly to have figured out how to load it. it is beyond unrealistic and completely off the wall to ask them to rewrite or change it. it was written by PROFESSIONAL, VERY CLEVER computer programmers who got paid alot of money by universities and development funding and macarthur grants to write it. charles couldn't, probably, even get past encryptment into base code to even begin to understand it, probably, much less rewrite it! i think charles and joel are doing the best they can with a pretty intricate software package made to manage an extraordarily tedious and complex task. i have seen this software used throughout the world on the net and it works the same way because that is they way it is written, not because there is a plot to censor people -- it cuts people off list if their address sends back "undeliverable mail," if their address won't send a bounceback, and so on and so forth. sheesh! e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 20:41:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me to continue to ascribe clearly unintended meanings to charles' careful, astoundingly polite efforts to clear up a small computer glitch is grossly uniformed and ungrateful. red slider, i think you have entirely too much free time. if you think you know so much about how to run 500+ lists (a really LARGE list as these things go) and are so willing to put so much energy into attacking someone who has had a whole lot of gumption, decency, and put in unimaginable amounts of work into building a net list and community, why don't you channel some of that energy into doing something constructive like starting and managing a list of your own? perhaps after the perhaps 15th, perhaps 75th, perhaps 150th interrupted weekend/vacation/busy schoolday, when, for absolutely no pay and just out of being a "good poetry citizen" you take on yet another computer glitch or address error and sooth yet another subscriber entangled in computer problems (i've had a message from joel and charles originated AFTER 10PM on a sunday just to offer advice on a message-address problem, for one of i know MANY examples) you will have another, very embarrassed and regretful view of your painfully ... well, i'll eschew pejoratives, but let us just say "misguided" attempt to sandbag charles, joel, and all the interns and helpers and others who've put so much into this poetics listserv. i can only hope, but must firmly believe (in order to believe in anything approximating a rational world) that whoever "runs" the EPC will have the sense and grace to see both the huge amount of work, FOR ABSOLUTELY NO MONEY WHATSOEVER, charles et al have put into poetics and the extraordinary achievement it is, and the uh, misguided, nature of your attack and drop the whole thing into electron styx. e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:18:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: red slider Subject: to all & appologies Absolutely right, those who've seen I went too far - each in their own way. Insensed at the idea that someone accused me of eliding an important part of a document. That word means to me deliberate alteration - falsification. But no matter, no excuse to say more. It would have been enough to have said, "no, that word was not in my copy." and let it go. What has happened to me, by me, over this matter, no matter how trivial or serious its particulars is not good. It is not my tao. Not the way I've lived it. And when I found myself ranting to one particular friend (and to no other i think - Dodie, anyone else, feel free to backchannel/post any messages of mine, I don't think they were that bad, but I've no perspective anymore) it was time for me to say, "I'm off my meds". I meant no ill to Charles or Joel or anyone. Had a nice post& reply bck with Eliza in fact that I really enjoyed, and learned. Yes I argued the points. Maybe, in time i'd have learned something. . And from a lot of others, too. But my sense that senses injustice is just too hyperactive (not paranoid, but the difference is trivial here). It just works that way. Got me into trouble before, I expect it will again. I manage it by gardening and keeping to the side of things. And that's where I need to be. I cannot be a good member of this working family. I could not trust myself to do that. It began with a name and what's in it. A name that was a good one. And an intrusion into that name. You know, I imagined I'd come back on the list and somebody would ask me, "well red slider, would you like to introduce yourself to us?" and I'd thought maybe I'd post a little piece that I did that tells about the fog horns and a little school stuff and some of San Franscisco where I grew up. It felt right because it felt like I could share some initmacy and keep my privacy. But that didn't happen. I tried to keep the first post lite - in the ballpark. But the next came too quick. I don't know why I'm saying all this. Maybe I figure I owe you bigtime but this is all I've got. some words. well the name is shit for me now. I made it so. Not anyone here. Nothing to do for that. I'm not whining about it either. hate whining. I got insensed, thats all. and in the list, out of the list - that's not the place i want to be. I'd of hoped someone figured out I don't get insensed for myself - never felt personally attacked by anyone - not even some of the direct bck chnl explosions i caught along the way. Just that there was somthing wrong out somewhere and it was comin up through me like a freight train. I'll be going now. And no personal messages please. I need to take care of me now. Well this list is not a confessional or a couch - that's for sure. So without further embarrassment, so long. red. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 21:56:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: A Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A READING The Rex Read (three women reading in a hotel lobby) Cydney Chadwick Michelle Murphy Sally Doyle The Hotel Rex 562 Sutter St. (between Mason & Powell Sts., downtown San Francisco) Friday, October 3rd. 7:30 p.m. FREE (food and wine--and other beverages--available) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:52:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: nico vassilakis Subject: jumble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone have information on 'poetscoop'? *The Case of Rd Sldr* on one a them perry the mason shows - people be steppin inta all kinds a shit smellin up the place ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 23 Sep 1997 22:58:29 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: to all & appologies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit wow red. what can i say? sending love, that's all right now. layne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 00:04:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970923124016.006f76d0@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yeah, but Mark, NONE of those were on NPR stations, let alone on a program produced by NPR for national distribution. Community stations are great and the few small independent networks (are there really any others besides Pacifica) tend to be good, though everyone I know who lives in a town with a Pacifica station complains about how they've deteriorated. NPR, as a network is just like the commercial stations, far too much of an interest in market share, etc. to program anything that isn't relatively official culture. Which doesn't mean there aren't NPR afiliates with local programs that are very good, but the national feed is relatively safe, especiallyu on the cultural front. Bests, Herb >It wasn't always so. There was a time, maybe twenty years ago, when Susan >Howe produced a weekly series of readings on WBAI, New York's then Pacifica >station, and I produced poetry specials. I remember doing Armand Schwerner >reading the entire (as of that date) The Tablets, a lengthy interview and >reading with Paul Metcalf, and two 2 1/2 hour shows of resurrected and >remastered readings by Jack Spicer (who did his own radio show 15 years >before that on San Francisco's Pacifica station). > >At 02:40 PM 9/23/97 -0400, you wrote: >>David Bromidge wonders: >>> But perhaps I >>> malign NPR. I know they offer Andrei Codrrescu. But apart from that, do >>> they offer poets of a stripe not that of Robert Pinsky? Has any one of the >>> following smatter of poets been aired : Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Bob >>> Perelman, Leslie Scalapino, Bruce Andrews, Abigail Childs, Steve McCaffery, >>> Karen Mac Cormack, Jackson Mac Low, Jennifer Moxley, Charles Bernstein, Rae >>> Armantrout, Pierre Joris, Laura Moriarty, Michael Davidson, Harriet Mullen, >>> Nick Piombino, Erica Hunt? If so, on which program, and at what time does >>> it air? Thanks. >> >>No, and don't be silly. Last spring Robert Hass was on twice (once >>with Pinsky). I'm sure Rita Dove has been on as well, plus Maya Angelou... >> >>Actually, I find the interviews fascinating. I suppose this is because I >>relish the sensation of frustration. Seriously, it's good to reinforce >>that the poet laureate is who you'd basically expect he'd be. >> >>Much worse than the interviews are the poetry clips on NPR. Last winter >>they were on an "anti-poem" kick and it seemed like Naomi Shihab Nye >>was in my speaker every damn week. >> >>But I don't expect much of radio in that way, i.e., I don't expect it to >>include non-mainstream poets. I think my expectations grow out of the >>fact that radio is expensive and in general it seems that the more >>something drips with money the more standard it's likely to be. In >>contrast, I expected much more "risky" (i.e., potentially offputting to >>the reader) poems to appear in Hass's poet's corner, but in the 100 or so >>weeks he's done it, I there has been ONE Sun & Moon poet by my count and >>few if any small-press poets. >> >>Carol >> >> Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:59:45 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MARK LEAHY Organization: University of Leeds Subject: Re: Joyce/comics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT there is one of the Tankgirl series of comic books(should I say graphic novels) which is based on _Ulysses_ (titled I think 'the Odyssey') -- it opens with a morning shaving scene, and follows the rough outline of the novel, it is fun as a response to _Ulysses_ but seems to get bored with the idea part of the way through; p.s. I'll be glad when the Red Slider issue ends (nothing against any of the participants) (perhaps it can be reworked in graphic format, certainly the range of science-fiction/conspiracy theory references would suit the genre -- to whom will be assigned the role of the Dark Knight? Mark Leahy enggml@leeds.ac.uk School of English University of Leeds West Yorkshire LS2 9JT United Kingdom ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:10:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Terri Gross Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii When _Leningrad_ was published, there were actual negotiations for awhile betwixt Mercury House's PR folks and NPR. Ditto with The Atlantic. Tho all for nought, as it happened. Because of the "reach" that such institutions have, you can imagine that there are a gazillion folks trying to get through to Terri every day. So it ends up with a hefty moat around it and frankly the places with the experienced PR agents would indeed be the likely ones to get across the bridge. No conspiracy theory needed. Ms. Gross, of course, is an alum of the very same English Dept that sponsors this list... Spicer's Pacifica show was on folk music, not poetry and ran in something like the 1949-52 time frame. The tapes of him I've heard from the SF State Archive would take more than a little remastering to make audible. Clark Coolidge did a great show on KPFA for awhile in the late 1960s, followed by another by David Gitin. Clark's was basically the NY School, and David's basically the Black Mtn folks. Later Kit Robinson and Erica Hunt did a series called In the American Tree (from which I took a title), later hosted by others as well. Jack Foley more recently has had a show on that station. Ron >David Bromidge wonders: >> But perhaps I >> malign NPR. I know they offer Andrei Codrrescu. But apart from that, do >> they offer poets of a stripe not that of Robert Pinsky? Has any one of the >> following smatter of poets been aired : Ron Silliman, Lyn Hejinian, Bob >> Perelman, Leslie Scalapino, Bruce Andrews, Abigail Childs, Steve McCaffery, >> Karen Mac Cormack, Jackson Mac Low, Jennifer Moxley, Charles Bernstein, Rae >> Armantrout, Pierre Joris, Laura Moriarty, Michael Davidson, Harriet Mullen, >> Nick Piombino, Erica Hunt? If so, on which program, and at what time does >> it air? Thanks. > >No, and don't be silly. Last spring Robert Hass was on twice (once >with Pinsky). I'm sure Rita Dove has been on as well, plus Maya Angelou... > >Actually, I find the interviews fascinating. I suppose this is because I >relish the sensation of frustration. Seriously, it's good to reinforce >that the poet laureate is who you'd basically expect he'd be. > >From: mark weiss >Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR > >It wasn't always so. There was a time, maybe twenty years ago, when Susan >Howe produced a weekly series of readings on WBAI, New York's then Pacifica >station, and I produced poetry specials. I remember doing Armand Schwerner >reading the entire (as of that date) The Tablets, a lengthy interview and >reading with Paul Metcalf, and two 2 1/2 hour shows of resurrected and >remastered readings by Jack Spicer (who did his own radio show 15 years >before that on San Francisco's Pacifica station). > Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 05:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Barry Cox Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Barry Cox, long a lurker on this list, passed away yesterday from cancer. Of all the poets who turned to the computer industry for employment, Barry was arguably the most successful. His projects as CIO of BBDO-West, the ad firm, were the subject of articles in publications like Information Week. Like a lot of poets, he didn't try to publish, though he attended readings in the Bay Area much more often than do most of the folks in the Palo Alto area. He was a sweet, wonderful guy, Ron Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 02:06:36 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: Re: devious signatories (my bad allegory) In-Reply-To: <97Sep18.180330hwt.586841(9)@relay1.Hawaii.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As an expert on American paranoia (also known as a version of the sublime trauma of this polity), I have finally figured out this "Red Slider"/"Charles Bernstein" affair. It turns out that (with his vast listserve expertise on a farm in Pennsylvania near Amish country), "Red Slider" is actually a hook or alias for "Ron Silliman," who is acting out his displaced rage against "Charles Berstein" (all due to the dialectics of LP agon as narrated by Bob Perelman in Marginal Poetics), but "Charles Bernstein" in this case is being played by Robert Pinsky who is not just satisfied to by US poet laureate but actually wants some playing time as manager of the Listserv (in other words wants to become "Listmaster" of that poetry enclave in Buffalo before its gets too big). So Silliman is feeling a bit more marginalized these days, yes, a bit more like Jack Spicer and proud of it and loving life in that bar/computer office. I arrived at this bad allegory by reading Joe Amato's wondrous new SUNY Press book, "Bookend" which is really about "anatomies of the virtual self" and the deviousness of all stable signatories (the book, a scholarly studies, actually dissolves in lettrist emptines and typos at the end). I suspect this book was written by John Cage or Marshall Mcluhan. I will end this bad allegory of the devious signatory in virtual space (I for one am Robocop in Christchurch mean to runin the mind of Denise Dutton), with a quote from that underrated poet, Peter Handke: Mercenaries had strayed into the language and occupied every word blackmailed each other by using concepts as passwords and I became more and more speechless and stopped working the time warps of those "cultural journals" and litte poetry magazines. This may be Rob Wilson, but I am not "Red Slider" who is "Red Slider" and works on a farm. No offense intended to my fellow paranoids and marginal subjects. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:23:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:13:54 -0500 from On Tue, 23 Sep 1997 17:13:54 -0500 p. durgin said: > Points well taken, but I, for one, have trouble with a notion of >poetry progressing. How can its effectiveness be theoreticized out of the >very private and obscure author/reader relation? Purposeful intent meets >with the same solopsitic ruts as the cathedral builders. What Joyce does >resembles the sort of thouroughness you suggest, but it is only as >effective for some. And why? Not for anyone to say as much as it is for >everyone to say. > Agreed, though. Lazy writing isn't hard to spot. But it comes in >all flavors, don't it? I'm with you, Patrick. The idea of a poetry/architecture relation intrigues me though. With all that stone & at that great height, and with so much at stake (like the NASA program of its time), & here were these architects weighing what had been done & creating elegant & viable "solutions". Gehry's doing it today with his titanium walls. Is there a way of reading poetry for its weight and heft & transparency - a way of measuring it - and providing deliberate alternatives? Of course, this is how it's done all the time. But this assumes a certain sobriety about each undertaking... does it sound like poetry anymore? Henry mumbled... Imagine imagination which includes PLAN... (the Hefty Formalists?) - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:05:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Hreha Subject: Re: devious signatories (my bad allegory) Comments: To: Scott A Hreha In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:06 AM 9/24/97 -1000, you wrote: >As an expert on American paranoia (also known as a version of the sublime >trauma of this polity), I have finally figured out this "Red >Slider"/"Charles Bernstein" affair. It turns out that (with his vast >listserve expertise on a farm in Pennsylvania near Amish country), "Red >Slider" is actually a hook or alias for "Ron Silliman," who is acting out >his displaced rage against "Charles Berstein" (all due to the dialectics >of LP agon as narrated by Bob Perelman in Marginal Poetics), but "Charles >Bernstein" in this case is being played by Robert Pinsky who is not just >satisfied to by US poet laureate but actually wants some playing time as >manager of the Listserv (in other words wants to become "Listmaster" of >that poetry enclave in Buffalo before its gets too big). So Silliman is >feeling a bit more marginalized these days, yes, a bit more like Jack >Spicer and proud of it and loving life in that bar/computer office. I >arrived at this bad allegory by reading Joe Amato's wondrous new SUNY >Press book, "Bookend" which is really about "anatomies of the virtual >self" and the deviousness of all stable signatories (the book, a scholarly >studies, actually dissolves in lettrist emptines and typos at the end). I >suspect this book was written by John Cage or Marshall Mcluhan. >I will end this bad allegory of the devious signatory in virtual space (I >for one am Robocop in Christchurch mean to runin the mind of Denise >Dutton), with a quote from that underrated poet, Peter Handke: >Mercenaries had strayed >into the language and occupied >every word >blackmailed each other >by using >concepts as passwords >and I became more and more speechless > >and stopped working the time warps of those "cultural journals" and litte >poetry magazines. >This may be Rob Wilson, but I am not "Red Slider" who is "Red Slider" and >works on a farm. >No offense intended to my fellow paranoids and marginal subjects. > > A. Sarah Hreha Dept of Spanish and Portuguese University of Minnesota ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:48:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Re: Barry Cox Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Barry was someone I admired greatly. He was extremely quiet but his keen observations were always a thrill. He had also been a long time follower of poetry and one of those poetry regulars so vital to the viability of a series, book, or magazine - a supporter of poetry in every sense of the word. I spent a good deal of time with Barry in Vancouver and most recently in Buffalo for the Duncan festival. He loved the word and was a devoted reader. He was present during the formative stages of some West Coast poetries and I believe he had also been a student of Robin Blaser's in Vancouver. He was also someone who travelled regularly, backcountry Mexico being one of his haunts. My favorite stories of his were his recollections of readings of Ron, Charles, and others, early on. Getting an additional perspective on some of the published accounts. It seemed to me he had such an important perspective, was sitting there at the beginning, and through many significant moments. His keen state of sweet, studied, quiet observation, almost buddhist in nature, is something that I will always remember. As I will his respectfulness for people and his unstoppable, affectionate awe of the word. Though Barry wasn't widely known, he was significant among us; we have certainly lost a part of where we have been by losing someone who never failed to be with us. At 05:16 AM 9/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Barry Cox, long a lurker on this list, passed away yesterday from cancer. > >Of all the poets who turned to the computer industry for employment, Barry was >arguably the most successful. His projects as CIO of BBDO-West, the ad firm, >were the subject of articles in publications like Information Week. > >Like a lot of poets, he didn't try to publish, though he attended readings in >the Bay Area much more often than do most of the folks in the Palo Alto area. > >He was a sweet, wonderful guy, > >Ron > >Ron Silliman >262 Orchard Road >Paoli, PA 19301-1116 >(610) 251-2214 >(610) 293-6099 (o) >(610) 293-5506 (fax) >rsillima@ix.netcom.com >rsillima@tssc.com >http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:21:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph S Zitt Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, Herb Levy wrote: > Community stations are great and the few small independent networks (are > there really any others besides Pacifica) tend to be good, though everyone > I know who lives in a town with a Pacifica station complains about how > they've deteriorated. There's still good radio in Austin (or was, as of when I left two months ago). KUT, the NPR affiliate, has poets as guests on several shows, most notably the morning-midafternoon show, Eklektikos, and some of the overnights. And there are several shows with poets (on an erratic schedule) on KOOP, the indie station (which, while it carries Pacifica news, isn't a Pacifica station). They tend not to be adventurous, since they're mostly made up of local poets (who tend to be surprisingly conservative), bit it's something... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:13:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: confusion/Red's 86 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mulling over th embers of the latest conflaguration as they dim down, this latest eruption over how the list operates... certainly there's concern over real/imagined abuses ov power that might "moderate" what we imagine is a free & equal exchange... but ov course thee list, as a social entity, is constantly moderating itself, and each ov us is a moderator... the effusive and lauditory thankyous & agreements that greet th postings of one ov our more famous listmembers, or the silences that greet notes that are seen as naive or uninformed... not to mention ov course the sarcastic or vitrolic retorts that regularly fly thru these mailboxes, nor the friendly banter that publicly marks various subgroups as allies... i'm not suggesting that these dynamix are evil or shd be "fixed"--only that they have real power to control participation, and that we're each responsible for our (individual/collective) use ov that power... asever luigi ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 08:31:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Bromige on 'readers' versions'. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Speaking of David Bromige: well, David, I loved the 'translations,' so thanks a lot for (oops!) 'playing that game.' On the other hand, I assume that when you said: <> you were being ironic, & irony has such problems today! On the other hand, if Im wrong & the irony is that there's no irony there, well I blush & retire in confusion from the fray... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the gloom, the gold gathers the light against it. Ezra Pound ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:17:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Call for essays Ed Foster has asked me to post the following (please do not respond to the below to me but rather directly to Ed--if his e-mail is working then the address would be: efoster@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu). TALISMAN is currently preparing a collection of essays tracing the history of innovative American poetry from the 1970s to the present. The essays will be published in a double issue of the journal (#20-21, Winter/Spring 1999) and simultaneously as a book, both in paper and cloth. We are looking for poets, scholars, and critics who would be willing to prepare essays of 4,000-6,500 words for the book. Essays could deal with an individual figure if her/his work can be seen as representative of a particular aesthetic or a certain group of poets, but we would be more interested in essays with a general focus. About twenty writers are at present preparing essays for the project, but many important areas are not yet covered--e.g., gay poets, Hispanic poets, small publishers and little magazines (an essay on L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E and related journals has already been assigned, however). If you would like to take part in this project, please write, as soon as possible, to the editors, Joseph Donahue and Edward Foster, at Talisman, P.O. Box 3157, Jersey City, NJ 07303-3157; or call (201) 938-0698; or fax (201) 938-1693. The deadline is October 6. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:27:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Bromige on 'readers' versions'. david, pardon my obtuseness at missing your irony. no wounds i hope. burt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:41:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: nostalgia & its vintages MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [ was, Subject: Re: Bromige on 'readers' versions'. ] quoth Professor Barbour > . . . & irony has such problems today! O where are the ironies of yesteryear -- when weren't said rang silvern in the ear? -- when what I meant (converse to what I spake) shone lucid as the then-waterbrooks, & clear d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 11:56:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In a message dated 97-09-23 10:29:51 EDT, you write: >what I >did hear made me swear (example: Terry >asks what he thinks of performance poetry >and he says, "well I'm not *against* >it--" [translate: I'm against it]). I certainly don't know his views on performance poetry per se. But I'm not so certain Pinsky is against the performance aspect of poetry. He reads with vigor and gusto--seems to truly enjoy his own readings as performance. I've heard him describe poetry as a function of the body--the control of and exhalation of "a column of air" rising out of one's body. I believe, in hearing him speak, that Pinsky is open-minded to alternative poetries. Poetries outside his vein. Also, he did a good job of countering (see below, from NYT OpEd, I believe ) Richard Howard's small-minded address--RH expressing his desire to keep poetry a secret society--to PEN (reprinted in the April issue of Harpers). As for NPR, I know that a Katherine Bowman does periodic segments featuring a single poet. I get the impression she's trying to cover the map of what contemporary poetry is in the U.S. (But maybe her map is missing a few precincts.) Has anyone, of langpo or postmod sector, tried to contact her, sent her a book or tape? Had any response? Finnegan ----- The People's Verse By Robert Pinsky Should poetry be on the Internet? Should it have a month, like cheese or Vaccination Awareness? No, say critics like the sage and distinguished poet Richard Howard, citing the inner, personal nature of the art. This is a sympathetic position, but I differ. Poetry is part of our shared, communal life, as surely as is the Internet. The conventional notion is that technology and poetry are opposites, but poetry is itself a technology: an ancient technology that uses the human body. Like the digital computer, verse is a memory system; a means of storing information that can be called up with great speed, compactly. The bodily technology of verse allowed the griots of Alex Haley's "Roots" to recite historical records: long genealogies, dynasties, property rights. This ability to extend a process seems to be part of our genetic makeup, a link between voice and cognition. After all, when someone tells you their phone number, you mutter it aloud because vocalizing it helps your brain remember it. This patterning by vocal repetition is similar to what musicians call "getting it under your fingers" or athletes call "body knowledge." Certain patterns enter the mind through repetition in the body. Written poetry in English came long before prose. By a similar principle, it is not hard to imagine that poetry -- a code of expression based on the expressive and (I assume) rhythmic grunts made by a resourceful mammal -- preceded other forms of language. Relatively disembodied language that uses its own vocal quality only in a diluted or feeble way, at many removes from the body, may be a rather recent development in evolutionary time. Our species' development of sophisticated technologies like the computer extends our primate ancestors' development of rhythmic, meaningful vocalizations. The word poet comes from the Greek for "maker," and poetry has served as a mighty taproot of an intellectual as well as a spiritual kind. There appears to be a link between the creative power of imagination and the power of what might be called "mumbo jumbo" -- a place where formal intensity and opacity overlap. That is, to conceive of something new seems to be linked to an intimate sense of the mysterious -- something that is not immediately reducible to paraphrase. The ability to make new discoveries is related to another sensation that is part of the vocal patterning associated with poetry: the pleasure taken in language that is only partly understood. Why is the maiden all forlorn? Why is the priest all shaven and shorn? Why does he marry her to a man who is tattered and torn? Because it rhymes (so we remember it) -- but maybe also because she is pregnant? We don't know. But wondering about such questions feels to me like a fundamental aspect of intelligence. Our development of a highly sophisticated culture, one in which many workers delight in solving difficult problems and handling vast amounts of information, depends on an elaborate, ancient substructure -- the billion accidents and intentions that underlie every word. From this perspective, designating April as National Poetry Month might seem as absurd as having a month for Our Genetic Heritage. Yet it is a very good idea just the same. For poetry isn't only bodily, it is also civic. Poetry month and the posting of short poems on subway cars may violate some notion of the form's intimate quality. But the civic space is where language and makers live. In the 17th century, poets -- some of them great ones -- wrote poems flattering royalty and toadying up to rich, eminent patrons. That was part of the civic life of art, a part of the way that society held onto the art of poetry, thereby preserving it for the unborn. That process of preserving this treasure was more organic than overt. It was part of the social process: The king wanted some high-grade flattery and the poet wanted what the king had to give. Because of that civic exchange, those people, all now dead, kept alive a treasure for us. Incidentally, the exchange might have sharpened the makers' sense of reality, making clear all the silliness and imperfections of their times, and of themselves. As to the imperfections of our time and ourselves, Richard Howard may be right to remind us that the art of poetry is inward, and not limited to April (which is also Soy Products Month). But the art is also outward, part of the marketplace where we all gather. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:59:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR Comments: To: henry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Henry, Gehry's work has at least one immediate effect, and that seems to be a wistful fun-house mirror effect. In that, the surrounding landscape, or city-scape, is emulated and mocked at the same time. So, I think you draw a vivid analogy, the ends left open, and the dogma replaced by discourse. I wonder, despite what is normally taken for the author/reader function, their respective roles, if subcunscious intent (PLAN) guides one through the writing/reading/(even) theorizing experience (IMAGINATION). On these terms, imagination and intent are inseperable. "Objective Chance"? Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, henry wrote: > I'm with you, Patrick. The idea of a poetry/architecture relation intrigues me > though. With all that stone & at that great height, and with so much at stake > (like the NASA program of its time), & here were these architects weighing > what had been done & creating elegant & viable "solutions". Gehry's doing it > today with his titanium walls. Is there a way of reading poetry for its > weight and heft & transparency - a way of measuring it - and providing > deliberate alternatives? Of course, this is how it's done all the time. > But this assumes a certain sobriety about each undertaking... does it sound > like poetry anymore? Henry mumbled... Imagine imagination which includes > PLAN... (the Hefty Formalists?) > - Henry G. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 09:41:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me In-Reply-To: <199709240041.UAA00338@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:41 PM -0400 9/23/97, Eliza McGrand wrote: >red slider, i think you have entirely too much free time. if you think you >know so much about how to run 500+ lists (a really LARGE list as these >things go) and are so willing to put so much energy into attacking someone >who has had a whole lot of gumption, decency, and put in unimaginable >amounts of work into building a net list and community, why don't you >channel some of that energy into doing something constructive like starting >and managing a list of your own? >i can only hope, but must firmly believe (in order to believe in anything >approximating a rational world) that whoever "runs" the EPC will have the >sense and grace to see both the huge amount of work, FOR ABSOLUTELY NO >MONEY WHATSOEVER, charles et al have put into poetics and the extraordinary >achievement it is, and the uh, misguided, nature of your attack and drop >the whole thing into electron styx. While I cannot claim to understand the whole Red Slider thing fully and I should have kept out of it in the first place (when I was in Buffalo last week Charles mentioned to me that he was writing to RS re: pseudonyms) I cannot resist commenting on a particular vein of this flurry of responses which I find problematic--the way the issues quickly break down into moral defenses of the parties involved. "Red Slider is a good human/cyber being and therefore he's a martyr" vs. "Charles works very hard and therefore it's sinful to criticize him." People take sides as if defending political candidates--or nations, and I think all nationalism is fascist. But that's just my narrow vision. Having been on the receiving end of such attacks this summer over my critique of the Sun & Moon contests--where the logic was S&M published lots of important books and its editor was therefore beyond examination, I felt like I was criticizing God or something. I felt no one on the list would look at my detailed listing of my personal experiences, and though I got lots of backchannel and phone support, no one dared to publically show compassion towards me on the list. I felt bitter, very bitter. And then later in the summer there was the passionate defense of the pornographic babes/attack on right-wing Dodie . . . forever will I think of myself as the queen of "rhetorical violence". I felt bitter-er still. Red Slider's lucky he has so many friends here, but that doesn't mean that he's automatically the victim of some Kafka-esque conspiracy. I'm sure Charles works hard and that he's a great human being, but that doesn't mean he's above scrutiny either. I was reading about the "fantasy of objectivity" this morning in a great anthology, _Freakery: Cultural Spectacles of the Extraordinary Body_, edited by Rosemarie Garland Thomson. It's interesting (and maddening) how this fantasy of objectivity occasionally breaks down on the Poetics List into emotional hysteria. I suppose, in the bigger picture, that's a good thing. It shows us where the seams are. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:08:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:59:23 -0500 from On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 10:59:23 -0500 p. durgin said: I wonder, despite what is normally taken for the author/reader >function, their respective roles, if subcunscious intent (PLAN) guides one >through the writing/reading/(even) theorizing experience (IMAGINATION). >On these terms, imagination and intent are inseperable. "Objective >Chance"? Plan & imagination in a relation comparable to chance and necessity - that is a reciprocal or maybe mirror image. What appears fortuitously is what is at hand - i.e., the necessary materials. But language is so overloaded with SOCIAL "architecture" (human experience) that to talk about poetry in terms of wood & stone seems pretty abstract, I'm sure. (Not that poets haven't tried to "objectify" it in various ways... maybe that's what we're doing.) Yeats used to write out a prose "abstract" of the poems he wanted. A plot. This is a way of getting at what I meant about being deliberate & responsible for every element. Not that it's the only way!! As you said, lazy writing takes many forms... for some, a prose trot would be the best way to kill a poem & internet chatting is probably the ultimate form of lazy writing! - HG p.s. but perhaps the ultimate laziness is the above equation: chance = necessary materials. "localism", "confessionalism", "aleatory techniques", "serial form", "documentary realism", etc. - all roughly equivalent! Valorizing whatever's ready to hand. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:30:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me Comments: To: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And this leads up to the point I was trying to gather the guts to make:::::::: The least we could do is leave the bickery on non-poetic topics to some other type of forum. May this be so, and this message the last in this far too peripheral thread. Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Wed, 24 Sep 1997 dbkk@SIRIUS.COM wrote: > > Red Slider's lucky he has so many friends here, but that doesn't mean that > he's automatically the victim of some Kafka-esque conspiracy. > > I'm sure Charles works hard and that he's a great human being, but that > doesn't mean he's above scrutiny either. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 12:58:08 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Terri Gross Ron, Jack Foley's radio show at KPFA continues. Jack has, over the years, done many fine interviews. He knows the writing, and he asks smart, intrusive, engaging questions. I say that based on an interview with him several years ago. He did (about a year ago?) an extraordinary interview with Allen Ginsberg (in connections withe the SELECTED poems). Also, a superb show with Lou Harrison focusing on Lou's poetry. A gem with Jake Berry. Last I heard, Jack was getting ready (a couple of weeks ago) to interview Robert Grenier. Hank Lazer P.S. As to Terri Gross's interviews, UGH. Her formula--breathy, how did you have the courage to write that poem?--so narrows the genre.... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 13:25:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR Comments: To: henry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Henry, What's at hand is the pith of the thing, the raw, unalloyed materials. In my own case (since I can't speak fairly of every case), this raw "stuff" on the workbench has lost its value at first touch, and the job of the poet is to create a valuable and artificial conglomeration of grime. 's dirty job and stemming from a perhaps crude exploitation of the materials, but aleatory techniques call for bravery and genuine crafts___ship, and will brook no laziness. There is the aleatory and then there is the technique. Just as there is something to confess away and apart from the confession. Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Wed, 24 Sep 1997, henry wrote: > > p.s. but perhaps the ultimate laziness is the above equation: chance = > necessary materials. "localism", "confessionalism", "aleatory techniques", > "serial form", "documentary realism", etc. - all roughly equivalent! Valorizing > whatever's ready to hand. - Henry G. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: Carol Mirakove Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carol Mirakove Subject: Re: Pinsky on NPR In-Reply-To: <970924115229_171081884@emout20.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Finnegan writes: > I certainly don't know his views on performance > poetry per se. But I'm not so certain > Pinsky is against the performance aspect of > poetry. He reads with vigor and gusto--seems to > truly enjoy his own readings as performance. Yes, I agree--he does seem passionate in delivery. But that he puts a lot into his own performance does not mean that he's down with performance poetry. I should have included more of the frame of Terri's question, which was 'how do you feel about performace poetry, which is so poular today, and relies on rhythm and sound more than the meaning of the words' (that's a paraphrase; 'meaning of the words' is a crappy way to put what she said, but you get the idea?, it was a "content" issue). That's when Pinsky said "well I'm not *against* [performance poetry]." And he went on to say that a poetics that foregrounds rhythm and sound is not tapping into/not creating the most *profound* poetry. I am no Pinsky expert, and I'm willing to trust that in some cases he has displayed an interest in alternative poetry. But all of the exposure I have had to him says otherwise. That wasn't really the point of my original post, anyway, though, I only wanted to share a line by him that I thought was *very* funny. Thanks for sharing the piece on where poetry should be by Pinsky. Certainly it is always good to read about openness to all mediums. My concern though was *what* poetry should be (according to Pinsky), but maybe I've caught him on days when he was feeling particularly narrow. Carol ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:29:48 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dodie writes: > >While I cannot claim to understand the whole Red Slider thing fully and I >should have kept out of it in the first place (when I was in Buffalo last >week Charles mentioned to me that he was writing to RS re: pseudonyms) I >cannot resist commenting on a particular vein of this flurry of responses >which I find problematic--the way the issues quickly break down into moral >defenses of the parties involved. ... > >Dodie hear hear. disagreement can be carried on without it being a war of personal loyalties. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 16:07:50 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Mike and Dale's Younger Poets Content-Type: text/plain Mike and Dale's Younger Poets Issue 6 (Summer 97) is available for a wopping US$5. We present the hottest poetry available in an intimate and engaging format. Overbearing prose, regurgitated postmod theories of poetic discourse, unintelligible genre mutations and undisciplined academic verse are all entirely absent from this upbeat, post beat crack mountain masterpiece of late 90's streetwise urban howls. We offer poetry by: Philip Whalen, Joanne Kyger, Drew Gardner, Jeff Conant, Own Hill, Bill Berkson, Dario Villa, Richard Houff, Michael Price, Connie Deanovich, Araki Yasusad (?), Anselm Berrigan, Edward Ainsworth, Kenward Elmslie, Donald Guravich, Ron Padgett, Sarah Menefee, Kevin Opstedal, Noel Black, Hoa Nguyen, Adam Cornford and yours truly. Also included in this issue are interviews with Tom Clark and Edward Dorn. To order, send a check to: Michael Price 766 Valencia Street San Francisco, CA 94110 Or contact our Southwest branch: Dale Smith 1207 Lorrain Street #2 Austin, TX 78703 Don't be left out. Order your copies today. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:50:06 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: Bromige on 'readers' versions'. In-Reply-To: <009BAC65.5861956C.209@admin.njit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I thought the Bromige-ized Anecdote of the Jar was spectacular. From a technical point of view, Gerard Malanga has a lot of poems using a similar method, the example that comes to mind is "To a Young Heiress" which comes from Frank O'Hara's "To The Harbormaster" Paraphrase and appropriation, essential tools ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 18:20:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Caribbean Studies Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" FYI: have just received a call for papers from the Association of Caribbean Studies. The conference will be held in Cartagena, Columbia, July 25-31, 1998. Abstracts of 200-300 words, double-spaced, may be sent to: Conference Coordinator Association of Caribbean Studies P.O. Box 22202 Lexington, KY 40522-2202 Abstracts must be submitted in triplicate before April 30, 1998. Speakers will be limited to 15 minutes. (That does seem a long way to go for fifteen minutes of time on the agenda, but maybe it's worth it to hear the rest of the conference?) It says here that "almost" all papers are delivered in English. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:24:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Try again Charles - this is exactly how it came to me it was never a matter of personal loyalties -- i've never met charles. but i can appreciate both ends having been assistant listmaster on pretty large list for awhile, and having had my own bout of sulks and paranoia the first time the list had a slowdown. and i can also approach this historically, having watched over the years a number of people with varyingly colorful computer problems wrestling with subscriber problems both here and on other list i helped care for. no one has ever approached it with the shotgun aimed at listmaster and stalin-era-like level of paranoia of this last bout. i've never seen anyone try to get a listmaster fired because the list program cut them due to address problems (and recall, red slider bragged several times about having gone to the head of EPC, charles' and list's presumed "bosses" over his deletion). finally, i've not seen anyone so patently ignore corrections of a misreading as ws done mr. slider, nor make such a loud fuss when asked if in compliance with stated rules of list, and if not, to get in compliance. slider knew this was NOT an anonymous/pseudonymic list when he joined -- it is all over the welcome and subscriber messages. being a listmaster is one of the most frustrating and thankless and laborious tasks on earth, increased exponentially if you are only a moderately to slightly knowledgeable computer type. i am extremely impressed charles et alia managed to even LOAD listserv program! i never dared try, only help once my computer wonk friend had loaded and set parameters. if someone thought up an extremely helpful and wonderful way to set up a virtual community, invited me into it, did the mountains of boring tedious maintenance tasks necessary to keep it going, fixed the innumerable problems brought on by computer complications, remained cheerful and helpful throughout, and did this all with a minimum of computer sophistication, and all GRATIS, out of just their "good poetry citizen" ethos, well, it is beyond grotesque to imagine trying to get them fired and the list shut down because 1) i had inadvertantly cut off by a computer glitch; 2) i was asked if i was in compliance with a clearly stated policy and asked, if i wasn't, to bring myself into compliance. at least in my corner of the world, one thanks people when they do kind and extraordinary things for one, not attacks. what on EARTH is going on when anyone would do such a thing, and anyone would defend it?! we all know charles and gang, all participate in their kindness and generosity and all of us benefit from their hard work. if there is reason to think a policy is less than ideal, at the very least, don't you think polite and private discussion with charles, with perhaps non-name-calling, non-accusatory, open discussion that is mindful of charles as the poor schmuck who will have to implement anything suggested is in order? again, i, for one, would eschew insistance (and who the hell would i be to insist charles do ANYTHING given that i haven't done piss-anything to start, maintain, or build this list?) about any technical aspect of list maintenance unless i accompanied it with cheerful offer to roll up my sleeves and wade through grut and tons of computer persiflage and documentation accompanying anything to do with programs. e ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 21:59:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: subtext w/ Bromige & Blaser In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh, Bromige's red rim eyeglasses are famous. When we read the four-author novel _Piccolo Mondo_ at the Western Front in Vancouver more than a year ago, David handed out red-rim glasses to all the authors. That was the poetical fashion statement of the Northwest for the Nineties. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:44:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: younger poets anthology Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Interested to see Philip Whalen in a "Younger Poets" issue. Younger than what--Methuselah? My god, even _I_ could have qualified under these less-than-rigorous guidelines....probably I was informed of it, but forgot. Why, even Tom Clark & Joanne Kyger gave up white ankle sox last year. I like chutzpah! Sign me up for a copy. "Younger than Springtime..." Ed Dorn doing the lead. If you're "Young at Heart", "fairy tales can come true." And thats what poetry is all about, dammit. I dont understand all this kerfuffle about fictional names. Once a younger poet, always a younger poet. Ask me later, years later, I'm indestructible. But I'm not NY School/Naropa--isnt _that_ more the focus here? David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:27:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: readers' versions of great lit In-Reply-To: <009BAB90.4880DB4C.59@admin.njit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >sorry david et al., >hey i'm shocked that a language-y guy like you, david, would be so complacent >about reader's digest kind of rehash. Hmm, let me say, I wonder what Hallmark >could do with some of your own lyrics.... You wouldn't mind, I presume. > >burt Ha ha and Ho ho. It happens that one of David's students got poems published by Hallmark Cards. All normal poets envious as hell. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 00:12:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: e-ddress for Coach House Books/Victor Coleman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If anyone out there has an up-to-date e-ddress, please b-c me. The chp@chbooks.com got bounced back G Bowering thinks there's a new e-ddress, but doesnt have it. Thanks, David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:22:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: readers versions In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There's an earlier precedent for the Bromige method; Kenneth Koch and John Ashbery's collaboration, "A Servant to Servants", begins "With a wooden lead-filled writing implement Jeeves wrote, 'What sudden showers',/And warm sunlight came flooding in the wood-framed glass aperture that Beulah had opened/For Alice B. Toklas. A mucus-filled bone construction in the middle of her face reacted angrily to the profusion of orange blossoms." The TLS had a spectacular review of the Rose/Joyce Ulysses a few weeks back, a review that concluded periodless and which included a bravura catechetical section. It's been the TLS, actually, where most of the significant fussing between editor and executor has gone on. Sales of Berard's Odyssee have not jumped. Nor apparently has Larbaud's translation. More pointless erudition: I heard that W Stevens' poems (soon to be issued in Library of America gorgeous deluxe format?) were written by a drunken sailor. Speaking of asleep in their boots: I ducked out of St Marks this morning at 6:45 to avoid the round robin conclusion of the all night reading of On the Road. The part I heard, from 3:45 on, had Dean stealing cars, landing Sal and the jesuit boys in a ditch, everybody eyeing dames and saying 'damn' softly, and of course, spodie-odie. Standout readers included the great Dug Rothschild scurrying up to the podium shoeless and in an unbuttoned work shirt, assembling his outfit (and creasing his fedora) as he read the bit about getting out of town before the angry mob of high school boys came to get Dean for flinging pebbles at the local beauty's window, the incomparable Ted Greenwald laughing at something, a lady assistant whose name I forget doing a lovely reading of Sal flirting with a woman in a low-cut cotton blouse, Sharon Mesmer banging the podium (and saying 'ow'), David Vogen accelerating maniacally for one of Dean's less lucid moments, Johnny Stanton mentioning that he had seen Neal Cassady himself change a tire on 10th betw B & C, agh, I forget who else, it was early! But the Financial Times shows up at Gem Spa at 3 am, which is good to know, that and Sandy Weill has a neon sign outside his office which like a hotel sign announcing vacancy or no declares him 'happy' or 'not happy'. The Forward doesn't show up until 6, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: younger poets anthology In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Uh, David, I think it's called "younger poets" because it used to be in a very copyright-infringing way called "Yale Younger Poets." So you see, it's, uh, well, a joke -- albeit a New York School/Naropa joke, which means that unlike a Language Poetry joke, you won't find it in The Economist ... by the way, looking very forward to your reading at Poetry City with Alan Sondheim -- Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:31:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: service unavailable In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII speaking of the list mechanics--I'm assuming I get a service unavailable message regarding odin of the cairn and the cross because I'm a new york school/naropa poet, right? -- if not, the listmasters maybe want to convert at least that name's box to nomail until the owner comes back? Love, Atar S.A. Genf ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 07:55:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: yngr-than-thou publ. notice HOT, HOT, HOT off the presses next week, for all you fanatics of the really late Henry Gould [don't everybody write at once]: CYCLOBIOGRAPHY, by Henry Gould Providence: AlephoeBooks, 1997 144 pp. poifectly bound $13.50 ($12. & shipping) to: The Poetry Mission, PO Box 2321, Providence, RI 02906 A collection of semi-bent narrative poems in Henry's trademark beat-byzantine [or b-squared] style. Now a few words from the In-the-Know Crowd [hot off the espresso mute bar]: "Already an underground classic. I buried mine yesterday and opened all the windows." - Jack Spandrift "C'mon Jack, you can do better than that. Want to borrow my Princeton Encyclopedia of Toney Poetic Blurbs?" - Henry Gould "His management of the keyboard of American slang lexicon (what is Rhode Island, anyway?) is sure to gratify, wouldn't you say, every one of his many admirers?" - Eric Blarnes "Yo, babe! Hot shit! The dude's no jayhawk!" - Helen Vendler "If Wystan and I were still alive, we would certainly be reading this book. Thank our lucky stars, at our present spiritual abode we can just dip directly into it now and then." - James Merrill "No comment." - Robert Pinsky "No comment." - Rita Dove "Any more comments?" - Henry Gould "At last! A Man for our Times!" - Princess Louisa Fortinblatt-Hohenzollern, Duchess of Grand Fenwick & VIP-Spankin'-Regent of Turkustan-Stufflings "Henry who?" - John Berryman "If you read one book this year... oh, forget it." - Marian the Librarian "Hey everybody, this guy is really cool. I was reading this just today at Gimme No Lip & spilled mocha java all over it. Have you tried their coffee? It's better than Blend To Death's. Did you see Lena there yesterday? She wasn't in class all last week. Jason said she went to New York..." - Joe College ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:18:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Mandel Subject: radio shows... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ron Silliman writes: >Clark Coolidge did a great show on KPFA for awhile in the late 1960s, >followed by another by David Gitin. Clark's was basically the NY School, and >David's basically the Black Mtn folks. Later Kit Robinson and Erica Hunt did >a series called In the American Tree (from which I took a title), later >hosted by others as well. Jack Foley more recently has had a show on that >station. > Don't I remember Lyn doing that show first, Ron? I mean before Kit and Erica, or do I have that backwards. I *do* remember being on it with her. "David Gitin" -- wonder what he's doing now? Tom Mandel Tom Mandel tmandel@screenporch.com ******************************************************** Screen Porch * http://screenporch.com 4020 Williamsburg Ct, Ste 200 * vox: 202-362-1679 Fairfax, VA 22031 * fax: 202-364-5349 ******************************************************** Join the Caucus Conversation ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 08:55:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: e on c Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As someone who can barely manage to 'open' my own computer & get through to read this list each day, I have to say Thanks Eliza, youre absolutely right that Charles et al have done great service to us all -- so Thanks to them all for such service. (On the other hand, I seem to have missed the deep problems rs caused, although I can understand why he was asked the question re his name. I have to say I wasnt bothered by his postings even if I wasnt moved to respond to any myself, but I do think the various advice to him re checking things out about possible 'technical' problems seemed reasonable. Sorry in a way that he wont be here, but glad that here continues to be... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the gloom, the gold gathers the light against it. Ezra Pound ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:30:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: nostalgia & its vintages, redox MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Somehow (i.e., over-haste), my yesterday's verse (responsive to a phrase from Doug Barbour) was a bit messed up; here's what I'd intended to write: > . . . & irony has such problems today! O where are the ironies of yesteryear -- when what weren't said rang silvern in the ear? -- when what I meant (converse to what I spake) shone lucid as then-waterbrooks, & clear d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:07:27 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Content-Type: text/plain Mike and Dale's Younger Poets is indeed a play on the Yale Younger Poets Series. At least, that's how it started. The first issue was in fact titled, simply, Yale Younger Poets. Then it became Dale's YP. We've called it Mike and Dale's since issue 4. We happen to include any poet we love in these issues, hence the paradoxical contents. Which shouldn't be too troubling, really, to understand as poets. The magazine is also about listening to those who have contributed to this art before us. Whether it's NY school, SF renaissance, or black mountain doesn't matter. We're autocratic and take what we like. I guess by that you can tell what we don't like. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:59:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ernesto Grosman Subject: The Radio Reading Project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Radio Reading Project In 1992, Rosanne Limoncelli and myself produced five radio programs of poets in performance, all of them followed by short interviews. The programs were produced and directed by Rosanne and myself and our sound engineer at the time was Claudia Cummings. The recordings were made at New York University, Tisch School of the Arts, during the winter of 1992-93. Each program lasted close to 56 minutes and where edited to be broadcasted in actual radio as part of an ongoing archival project. In the beginning our hope was that the programs would become available through satellite. At the time we didn't know of the possibilities of the WWW neither of the soon to be Electronic Poetry Center, since then three of those radio programs became available through the EPC (http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/sound/file-list-html), Hannah Wiener's, Jackson Mac Low's and Charles Bernstein's. The other two recordings (Robert Creeley's and Susan Howe's) are awaiting to be put on line. Last week Rosanne started to transfer those programs from reel to reel to a digital format in order to offer the best possible sound quality. In spite of the extended editing, recordings were in some cases half an hour longer that the actual final 56 minutes cut, I believe that they preserved the tone of each meeting. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:21:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <19970925170727.17853.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:07 AM -0700 9/25/97, Dale Smith wrote: >We happen to include any poet we love in these issues, hence the >paradoxical contents. Which shouldn't be too troubling, really, to >understand as poets. The magazine is also about listening to those who >have contributed to this art before us. Whether it's NY school, SF >renaissance, or black mountain doesn't matter. We're autocratic and take >what we like. I guess by that you can tell what we don't like. Dale, Judging from the writers you listed for this issue of your mag, what you guys like is straight white men. For example, I counted 22 poets and 2 interviewees, for a total of 24 contributors, only four of which were women. I think that even The New American Poetry did better than that. I hate PC-mongers myself, but still . . . Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:32:17 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Clark Coolidge's Polaroid Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Does anyone have a copy of the tape of Clark Coolidge reading Polaroid? Ira ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:31:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karlien van den Beukel Subject: Rempress publications and reading series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Rempress is a small poetry press and organiser of reading series, based in Cambridge, UK. It is run by Lucy Sheerman and myself. We have published and will be publishing some pamphlets which may be of interest to people in the States. We now have a US distributor, SPD, which will make it much easier to get hold of these pamphlets. Jennifer Moxley Enlightenment Evidence (Part One) ISBN No 1 901 361 00 4 Beth Anderson The Impending Collision ISBN No 1 901 361 02 0 Both these poets are intellectually passionate and accomplished. And for list completion's sake the third pamphlet out is: Karlien van den Beukel Pitch Lake ISBN No 1 901 361 01 2 These pamphlets cost $8 each. Small Press Distribution's address is: 1341 7th Street Berkeley CA 94710 - 1403 tel: 1 (800) 869 7553 People outside the US might find it easier to write to the publisher direct: Rempress 6 Grasmere Gardens Cambridge CB4 3DR, UK Out soon will be the following pamphlets: Fiona Templeton Oops the Join Tracy Ryan Slant Lisa Jarnot Heliopolis I'll let you know when these are published. We also run a reading series and, for what it's worth, here is the autumn programme. Rempress Poetry Readings Michaelmas 1997 6th October: Nicholas Johnson Bill Griffiths Barry MacSweeney 24th October: Tony Lopez Simon Perrill 6th November: Kevin Nolan John Wilkinson 21st November: Bob Perelman Tracy Ryan Readings are held at the Arts Theatre, Cambridge, starting at 8.30 pm. Everyone most welcome. Karlien ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:27:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Caroline Bergvall/Kevin Killian in San Francisco In-Reply-To: <199709252057.NAA22863@lotus.intergate.bc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Small Press Traffic and Canessa Park present Caroline Bergvall and Kevin Killian Tuesday, October 14, 7:30 p.m. AT CANESSA PARK 708 Montgomery at Columbus This is the first San Francisco appearance of the dynamic Caroline Bergvall, one of the United Kingdom=B9s most interesting new writers. Ever since her appearance at last year=B9s =B3Assembling Alternatives=B2= conference in New Hampshire, where she made a huge hit, we have wanted to bring her here to the Bay Area. Now here she is, live, in person, at Canessa Park. She is the author of =C9clat (Sound & Language, 1996) and teaches performance writing at Dartington College of the Arts in Devon (England). =B3So, what i= s Performance Writing not? Is Performance Writing not writing? Is it writing which performs not writes? Is it not performance which writes? But then does writing not perform? And when does writing not perform? And what kind of not performance are we talking about? Is it not performance to write or is it not writing to not perform?=B2 Don=B9t miss this chance t= o see and meet La Bergvall, the woman everyone=B9s talking about, for soon you will be too! =46or you with access to the World Wide Web check out: http://angel-exhaust.offworld.org/html/issue-9-10/CarolineBergvall.html for some of her writing http://www.dartington.ac.uk/Performance_Writing/keynote.html for some of her theory Kevin Killian, long-time Small Press Traffic volunteer, has manfully volunteered to be the opening act for our UK visitor. His 1997 books are Little Men (Hard Press), Arctic Summer (Hard Candy) and the new Argento Series (Meow Books), which collects many of the poems he has written over the past few years on the intertwined topics of HIV and the films of the Italian horror maestro Dario Argento. With Lew Ellingham Killian has written the life of the US poet Jack Spicer which Wesleyan University Press will publish in the spring. =B3Five Years in the Life of Jack Spicer=B2 has recently appeared in the Impercipient Lecture Series, and another excerpt from this biography will appear in Chicago Review in December. He is thrilled to return to Canessa Park at last. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:32:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: e-ddresses : Don Byrd, Victor Coleman/ younger poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sorry to use up a message on the List fopr further e-ddress info....can someone tell me, is there a directory of some kind i might access for this stuff? Meanwhile, if anyone has an e-ddress for Don Byrd--or for Victor Coleman, see yesterday's posting by me--please b-c me with that info. While I'm eating up a message unit anyway, I might as well say thanks to those who posted in with info re "Younger Poets." My posting re that was dumb. I dont understand half of it myself. I had had 3 vodka tonics. Must remember not to turn computer on when swacked. But in this connection, I would like to repeat what Randolph Healy wrote, when I had told him, some months ago, I had had 3 vodka tonics the night before : "What self-control--that you could stop!" As you may deduce, if getting drunk is a newsworthy event in my piccolo mondo, its what i seldom do. And today, I know why. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 18:49:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ernesto Grosman Subject: The Radio Reading Project... A CORRECTION Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In my last message I made a mistake in the address of the EPC Sound List by typing a dash instead of a dot between the words "list" and "html". It should read: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/sound/file-list.html Sorry, ernesto ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:59:58 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Content-Type: text/plain Dodie: Thanks for exposing the obvious injustice. As you can imagine, Hoa and I have discussed the very issues you yourself raise. And I would like to open this up to others on the list with more experience editing magazines than myself. The dilemma, as I see it, is twofold: 1) how do you publish poetry you love and 2) still represent poets of diverse backgrounds? My small format allows me hardly 90 pages of space to work with, so I'm naturally going to be selective about how I fill that up. Also, my friends who write the poetry I like, happen to be predominately white and male. I prefer friends' work to strangers. But I don't limit it in that way. I publish plenty of people who I don't know personally. But there's no way I can do a search of all the women and people of color writing poetry in this country. I have neither the means nor the time for that kind of investigation. Nor, frankly, the interest. Luckily, in this country I can be concerned with issues of aesthetics. Which for me, these days, is as troubling as racial and sexual equality. But then again, I'm not, on a daily basis, openly confronted with inequities of race or gender because I am a white man. I would be ashamed to admit otherwise and ashamed to condescendingly ask for work from women or people of color just to satisfy some personal need of pan-sexual/racial representation in order to prove that, hey, I'm really a nice guy. Look. I published this poem by... I do know several female poets, but fewer writers of color. Of the women I know, I have invited only those whose work I admire and want for my magazine. It seems the others send their poems to Chain, where they can stay, as far as I'm concerned, from an aesthetic position. My poetics, if you haven't noticed, is deeply influenced by NY school, black mountain poets, etc. Pound,in a deeper way, influences my decisions. Most writers outside of my small camp follow a deplorable tradition of poetics established by Gertrude Stein's self narcissim. It's simply not my thing, yet that kind of poetics proliferates and is condoned by many people. Judging from the invitations Hoa receives to submit poetry to various journals, I assume that there are plenty of established venues, with at least some corporate/academic funding, open to the aesthetic style I detest. But Hoa's poetry is actually quite good, so those editors are lucky to be getting it. But, because there are so few poets of color writing experiemental poetry and so many white editors demanding such work, Hoa actually questions the aesthetic value of her poems. I feel, however, that most poetics journals these days seek women and people of color to satisfy a self-righteous urge to compete in the cultural market place, regardless of personal poetics. And editors who do not draw a line over aesthetic concerns, in the end, ruin thought, intellection, and in a deeper way, the very issues they themselves falsly believe they are confronting. Because, honestly, a great deal of poetry is dull as hell these days. Both men and women are contributing to that. All patronizing attempts to include the other will continue to expand this inanity. But now we are discussing aesthetics, which is tricky, and will take us nowhere. You will see what you have to and I will do what I must. Meanwhile, compared to something like Chain, or even Mirage, M&D's must seem quite unfashionable. Yours, Dale >At 10:07 AM -0700 9/25/97, Dale Smith wrote: > >>We happen to include any poet we love in these issues, hence the >>paradoxical contents. Which shouldn't be too troubling, really, to >>understand as poets. The magazine is also about listening to those who >>have contributed to this art before us. Whether it's NY school, SF >>renaissance, or black mountain doesn't matter. We're autocratic and take >>what we like. I guess by that you can tell what we don't like. > >Dale, > >Judging from the writers you listed for this issue of your mag, what you >guys like is straight white men. For example, I counted 22 poets and 2 >interviewees, for a total of 24 contributors, only four of which were >women. I think that even The New American Poetry did better than that. > >I hate PC-mongers myself, but still . . . > >Dodie > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:43:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Left Hand Reading Series 97/98 Schedule MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LEFT HAND READING SERIES 97/98 SCHEDULE The Left Hand Reading Series is a program of the Left Hand Book Collective, an all volunteer bookstore in Boulder. We sell radical left texts, multi-cultural literature and a variety of alternative media. We are located at 1825 Pearl Street, Boulder, CO 80302. For information call (303) 402-0375 or 443-8252. The LHRS seeks to promote the work of writer’s whose work might otherwise be marginalized. We encourage the work of youth, writers of color, & experimental forms. Each event includes an OPEN segment for new writers. Thursday, September 25, 8:30 pm T Begley, poet, translator, co-author Saphho’s Gymnasium, co-translator of Odysseus Elytis’ Open Papers (both w/ Olga Broumas) and several chapbooks. Bill Scheffel, poet, teacher of writing and meditation. Roger Snell, poet, environmental activist. Monday, October 27, 8:00 pm, a queer night co-sponsored with DAWG Leslea Newman, poet, ed., novelist, 1997 NEA recipient for her latest book Still Life With Buddy, author Heather Has Two Mommies and 19 other volumes. Ellen Orleans humorist, novelist, playwright Lambda Literary award winner. Her latest book is Still Can’t Keep A Straight Face. Monday, November 24, 8:00 pm Jack Collom poet, teacher, author _Arguing with Something Plato Said_ and numerous other volumes. A performance in collaboration with Josepha Conrad. Akilah Oliver poet, published in _High Risk 2_, member of performance art ensemble The Sacred Naked Nature Girls, activist, facilitator ‘Writing is Life’ workshop for queer youth. December--Date to be announced Poet’s Theater Monday, January 26, 8:00 pm Marilyn Krysl, poet, fiction, essay writer. Author, 7 volumes of poetry including _Warscape, with Lovers_, winner 1997 Cleveland State Poetry Center prize, director of Creative Writing at CU, Boulder, co-editor _Many Mountains Moving_. Megan Marsnik, fiction writer, Naropa MFA candidate. Patrick Pritchett, poet, CU student , poems in Prairie Schooner, River City, New American Writing, Exquisite Corpse and Many Mountains Moving. Thursday, February 26, 8:30 pm., 2 poets from Fort Collins Laura Mullen, poet, author _The Surface_ (selected for the National Poetry Series 1991), _The Tales of Horror_ (forthcoming in the fall of 1998 from Kelsey St. Press). She teaches at Colorado State University. Mark Sanchez, poet, student at CSU. Monday, March 16, 8:00 pm Victor Hernandez Cruz, poet, performer Michelle Albert, fiction writer ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 17:07:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <19970925230002.16508.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:59 PM -0700 9/25/97, Dale Smith wrote: >I feel, however, that most poetics journals these days seek >women and people of color to satisfy a self-righteous urge to compete in >the cultural market place, regardless of personal poetics. And editors >who do not draw a line over aesthetic concerns, in the end, ruin > thought, intellection, and in a deeper way, the very issues they >themselves falsly believe they are confronting. Dale, You've dug yourself in so deep, I feel like offering you a shovel . . . I feel that women and writers of color have, more often than not, given the most thrilling readings at Small Press Traffic over these many years. My "thought" and "intellection" may have been ruined long ago, but I've never booked anybody whose work I didn't believe in--and yes I've had to research, to fill in my lacunae--but I think the results, both personally and publically, have been well worth it. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 16:28:24 -0700 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: [Fwd: test [Fwd: RADDLE MOON 's new address]] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------37A94C81279D" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------37A94C81279D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit one more try: --------------37A94C81279D Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <3429C5EE.47D6@ix.netcom.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 19:01:18 -0700 From: Susan Clark Reply-To: clarkd@nospam.sfu.ca Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: UB Poetics discussion group Subject: test [Fwd: RADDLE MOON 's new address] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------21F51448551F" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------21F51448551F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If this reaches the list, apologies for the duplication. We're trying to figure out why I can't post. Susan --------------21F51448551F Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <34270AA6.5233@ix.netcom.com> Date: Mon, 22 Sep 1997 17:17:42 -0700 From: Susan Clark Reply-To: clarkd@nospam, sfu.ca Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: selby@slip.net CC: UB Poetics discussion group Subject: RADDLE MOON 's new address Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear Spencer, dear list, please address all RADDLE MOON or GIANTESS correspondence, submissions, subscriptions, etc. to our new address: RADDLE MOON / GIANTESS Main Space 518-350 East Second Avenue Vancouver, BC V5T 4R8 CANADA And, thanks, Spencer for continuing this most useful -- and heartening -- list. Susan Susan Clark --------------21F51448551F-- --------------37A94C81279D-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:35:07 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <19970925230002.16508.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Why is it that "aesthetics" always comes to the rescue of any attempt to broaden one's scope by including writers of color and women, as if there were some "natural" division between them? I know I've solicited material from members of both "groups," and not because I felt it an either/or question; it would be an act of bad faith were I not to do so. And why is it that the mysterious category of "my friends" is always the one holding the aesthetical torch? I appreciate the desire not to make too many distinctions, but the refusal to make any (or to insist that only others are doing so) only supports the status quo. And is not "experimentalism" an attempt to change the status quo? Or should only some quo's be re-statused? Susan ______________________________________________ Susan M. Schultz Dept. of English 1733 Donaghho Road University of Hawai'i-Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/schultz http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/tinfish ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 22:48:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Bromige on 'readers' versions'. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ><readers' versions of great lit. Are we really intending to go on >reproducing novels & poems from the past word for word into an infinite >future? Give me a break!>> Right friggin' on! I havent got time for all those 800pp novels and 300pp poems. If those writers had something to say, let 'em say it quickly. It's not like there's nothing else to do but read a novel by James Joyce. We have more and more books around now; we dont have to fill up our reading time. Give me James Joyce on two cassettes and I';ll listen to them on the way to work. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:00:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Dowker Subject: Re: Caroline Bergvall/Kevin Killian in San Francisco Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" More of Caroline Bergvall's writing can be found at: http://home.ican.net/~alterra/ David >For you with access to the World Wide Web check out: > >http://angel-exhaust.offworld.org/html/issue-9-10/CarolineBergvall.html >for some of her writing > >http://www.dartington.ac.uk/Performance_Writing/keynote.html >for some of her theory ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 00:48:58 -0400 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: name, paradox, &c. In-Reply-To: <199709260403.AAA13599@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII points well taken on both sides here, tho i will add two cents along the lines of what dale was saying abt the profusion of journals out there. some of the editorial work for the journal sub-stance has recently moved from santa barbara here to london ont. for a few years now the number of submissions dealing with issues of gender/race/identity have, very sadly, dropped off, a simple reason being that there are any number of specialized journals now that cover those areas. which is of course a good thing, except that now a readership that appreciates a broad range of perspectives can no longer easily find that range in one place, and readerships get fragmented, balkanized. perhaps that fragmentation is more accurate reflection of the status quo, and i certainly wdnt advocate a return of the evil empire. but in the meantime, what's an editor to do? broaden horizons do some work and hunt down a range of perspectives, hellyeah. publish stuff you don't like for the sake of being "representative," noway. publish stuff you like -- and keep looking for new stuff to like. cheers, tom ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 21:44:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: AVEC Sampler Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >New From Avec Books: > > An Avec Sampler, 1997 > New writing by: > Laura Moriarty; Chris Stroffolino; Laynie Browne; George Albon; >Stephen-Paul Martin; Susan Smith Nash and Lissa McLaughlin.(Cover >photographs by Lissa McLaughlin.) >AN AVEC SAMPLER is not AVEC magazine. It is not any magazine. It is a >book, a sampling of contemporary writing, with approximately seven to ten >pages from each contributor. This publication of multiple authors will >appear at various invervals. Future SAMPLERS will include >translations--from the French and other languages. > > 63 pages * $8.50 (please include $1.24 for bookrate shipping)* Perfect >Bound* ISBN: 1-880713-10-1 > >_The Avec Sampler_ is available from SPD and Baker and Taylor. In the >coming weeks, check out the Avec Books website for Sampler excerpts. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 23:48:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: radio shows... (a brief on Gitin) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Gitin actually still does (or at least did as of a year ago) a radio program, although it comes out of Monterey area. No poetry, or very little. More a music program. He still generates about a chapbook a year of poems... Stephen Cope PS: I'd have to mention LINEbreak here. When I was in Santa Cruz I broadcast about half of the tapes to fairly strong response. Charles provides a welcome contrast to Terri Gross, and an even more welcome contrast to most of what passed for poetry programs in the area (of which there were and likely still are quite a few, but mostly somewhat conservative). >Ron Silliman writes: > >>Clark Coolidge did a great show on KPFA for awhile in the late 1960s, >>followed by another by David Gitin. Clark's was basically the NY School, and >>David's basically the Black Mtn folks. Later Kit Robinson and Erica Hunt did >>a series called In the American Tree (from which I took a title), later >>hosted by others as well. Jack Foley more recently has had a show on that >>station. >> > >Don't I remember Lyn doing that show first, Ron? I mean before Kit and >Erica, or do I have that backwards. I *do* remember being on it with her. > >"David Gitin" -- wonder what he's doing now? > >Tom Mandel > > > >Tom Mandel tmandel@screenporch.com >******************************************************** >Screen Porch * http://screenporch.com >4020 Williamsburg Ct, Ste 200 * vox: 202-362-1679 >Fairfax, VA 22031 * fax: 202-364-5349 >******************************************************** > Join the Caucus Conversation ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 01:36:10 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dale writes (among other things): 1) how do you publish poetry you love and 2) still represent poets of diverse backgrounds? My small format allows me hardly 90 pages of space to work with, so I'm naturally going to be selective about how I fill that up. Also, my friends who write the poetry I like, happen to be predominately white and male. Dale: Not to sound condescending, but you need to make more friends. Or to spin it another way, all you have to do is ask. If you get bad Gertrude Stein imitations, be an editor and demand better (which is your perogative as an editor, not because you happen to be white or male). I side with Dodie on this one. Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 04:49:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: David Gitin Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tom Mandel asks what David Gitin is doing. Well, after an eventful stay in Japan after the end of his second marriage a few years ago (he was literally hit by a truck), he's back in the Monterey area teaching at a few of JCs around there. Publishes little chapbooks of his poetry, which I still enjoy reading whenever I get them. Ron Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:00:03 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII an interesting problem. I don't think anyone is getting rich publishing small press magazines or books, certainly it would be strange for anyone to publish work they don't like, it also seems logical to publish your friends' work (I would like to be friends with many of the writers whose work I like and it certainly is hard on a friendship with a writer if you don't like their work, though I can think of exceptions to both of these statements without much effort). so it seems as though on general principles Dale is right, except that he seems to define his friends and his taste in, not exclusionary terms, but restricted somehow. it would be crazy to publish something you don't like because of the gender or race of the author*, it would be even crazier to presume you won't like someone's writing because of their gender or race, and it seems sad but perhaps understandable that someone lacks the curiosity or energy to seek out writing by non-white non-males who might be interesting. but what can you do, Frank O'Hara said nobody should be forced to read poetry as if it were good for you. *(or if not crazy at least weirdly backscratching logrolling careerist) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:12:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 25 Sep 1997 15:59:58 PDT from Responding to Dale's interesting letter: I think you have to take your "aesthetic" seriously enough to want to find it reflected where you might not so easily recognize it, outside the writing of your buddies & idols of the past. And see where its boundaries are with respect to the not-obviously aesthetic, like history & personal experience & the public world & etc. A very brief story that might shed light on the issue: I was at a Poetry Mission mtg last night. Edwin Honig, a poet close to 80 who has been through the Depression, WW II, personal McCarthyite persecution, etc. was pushing for a reading or series of readings around Vietnam vet poets & translations of Vietnamese poets, as a way of getting at the kind of poetry that seems interesting & real to him: poetry of real, historical- personal experience, of people who have "been there" in fact or authentic imagination. He criticized a lot of current trends as simply writing he "doesn't understand" - abstract, inhuman, solipsistic, hermetic. That people need poetry that addresses & interprets their own experience of war & life's battles in a way they can feel, not in a way they have to "appreciate" as art or technique or whatever. [ars est celare artem] How does this relate to your mag? That if you are really interested in an alternative to academic product & experimental solipsism, you have to be less complacent about your own aesthetic & less superficial about the grid of p.c. divisions (gender, class, race). The issue of when poetry loses its edge or essence & fades into doctrinaire or documentary regurgitation is important - but that's part of your job in looking for & finding good writing outside your own circle. (Understand I'm preaching to myself here, as the inheritor of a little mag & trying in piddly ways to move MYSELF off the passive to the active stage of finding material). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 05:44:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Shirley Clarke Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thought some folks would be interested that "underground" filmmaker Shirley Clarke (the Connection from Jack Gelber's Beat play, the Cool World, Portrait of Jason, Ornette: Made in America &, according to the NYTimes, though I've never seen it, an Oscar-winning documentary on Robert Frost in 1962). She was also a co-founder of the Filmmakers Cooperative that used to put out dreamy catalogs back in the 60s & 70s. There's a NYTimes obit today . Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:03:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Writing experiments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > The most amazing Oulipo resource I know of is a *THREE VOLUME* _La > Bibliotheque Oulipienne_ [apologies for omitted accents ...]. The > publisher > is Seghers, I'm showing an ISBN of 2-232-10308-0 for volume 1. This > is in > French, of course. For anyone truly interested in Oulipo, these > volumes are > a must-have. I'm not sure where one orders such things, I just found > them > sitting on the shelf the last time I was at a bookstore in Paris. > (Amazon.com doesn't seem to have them; I just tried that ISBN at > Amazon.com > and came up empty.) Pierre? Yes indeed, Jim -- in August I stood drooling in La Hune in Paris flipping through the 3 volumes: they definitively are the best collection of OULIPO stuff -- cldn't however buy it as I had just come from my favorite bookshop, the Librairie Avicenne, where I had spent every last franc I owned buying some 2 dozen recent & not so recent books by Maghrebian & Mashrekian poetas & writers. Next time.... Pierre ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I have never been able to tell a beginning from an end." — Georges Braque ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:36:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:07 PM -0700 9/25/97, dbkk@SIRIUS.COM wrote: >At 3:59 PM -0700 9/25/97, Dale Smith wrote: >>I feel, however, that most poetics journals these days seek >>women and people of color to satisfy a self-righteous urge to compete in >>the cultural market place, regardless of personal poetics. And editors >>who do not draw a line over aesthetic concerns, in the end, ruin >> thought, intellection, and in a deeper way, the very issues they >>themselves falsly believe they are confronting. > >Dale, > >You've dug yourself in so deep, I feel like offering you a shovel . . . > >I feel that women and writers of color have, more often than not, given the >most thrilling readings at Small Press Traffic over these many years. My >"thought" and "intellection" may have been ruined long ago, but I've never >booked anybody whose work I didn't believe in--and yes I've had to >research, to fill in my lacunae--but I think the results, both personally >and publically, have been well worth it. > > >Dodie i second that emotion; and i also, personally, wince at playing stein off against pound in a way that casts stein as the narcissist, the errant one, the one with the "problem." to my mind, this is a gendered and politicized determination as much as it is an aesthetic one --i.e. women are often accused of narcissism, self-indulgence, etc and that judgment is used to keep them from access to the renown and respect enjoyed by their male peers. dale, i wonder if it'd be fair to say that your aesthetic sense may itself be the product of conditioning in an unjust society? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:35 PM -1000 9/25/97, Susan Schultz wrote: >Why is it that "aesthetics" always comes to the rescue of any attempt to >broaden one's scope by including writers of color and women, as if there >were some "natural" division between them? I know I've solicited material >from members of both "groups," and not because I felt it an either/or >question; it would be an act of bad faith were I not to do so. And why is >it that the mysterious category of "my friends" is always the one holding >the aesthetical torch? I appreciate the desire not to make too many >distinctions, but the refusal to make any (or to insist that only others >are doing so) only supports the status quo. And is not "experimentalism" >an attempt to change the status quo? Or should only some quo's be >re-statused? > >Susan > hear hear. in my workplace and probably many of you'alls' (or is that all's?) the dynamic dale is describing is called the old boys' network. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:07:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hg Subject: hg post-blab Maria & Susan are right on about the Pound/Stein "narcissism" tag. I understand how disagreeable, anti-art & reactionary my previous post sounds to many on the list. What is art & style if not personal interpretation & technique applied to shared reality. For many here experiment is an assertion of, a measure of, what is real. But it seems to me the richest soil for poetry to grow is in a balance - balancing the artist's interpretations & responses to shared experience against the experience of art in and for itself. Not art-for-arts sake or art-for-memory/experience alone (the vets). Both at once. Art for arts sake leads to the hermeticism & solipsism that Honig was decrying. Art for memorializing tough life leads to cliche or politically-approved official art. Doing by halves. - Henry Gould (enough from me today already) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 07:58:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <19970925230002.16508.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi everyone it's Kevin Killian. My goodness, I don't think I've posted on this list in about a million years. Nevertheless this interesting thread brought me out of a drug induced stupor. I have a different perspective than the other posts I've seen, including Dodie's. First of all, Dale Smith's work both as poet and editor is (tho' I haven't seen the new issue of "Mike and Dale's Younger Poets") usually first-rate and always provocative. There's no getting around that despite his method. Secondly, it's great to see a magazine with a strong editorial policy, so many magazines come out, you read them or look at them, zzzzzz . . . . However Dale once you expound an editorial philosophy that flies in the face of the orthodoxy of political correctness, you must expect or perhaps enjoy the ensuing controversy. Didn't the same thing happen to the editors of "Apex of the M"? Third, the thing I don't understand is, (I mean, the thing I don't empathize with, is) that an editor always publishes things he or she LIKES, what's the deal with that? I don't buy into that, but then I'm here in California and have the flat affectless I am a camera George Kuchar type of mind-set. Anyone who's read any of the issues of "Mirage #4/Period[ical]" will know what I mean, that it's not about "fashion" in the way Dale says but it's about what drifts in front of our bleary screen; it's more of a diary I suppose, a document of my life and Dodie's and what happens from week to week in our (cultural) lives . . . I think most magazines actually operate that way however editors are always claiming, I don't know to what degree truly, that this is actually work they "like." Many poets send out their work all the time and it crosses the viewfinder of editor X or Y's rifle and bang. And most of these poets (the ones who send out their work all the time) are indeed, say, 90 per cent of them, men. Any editor will agree with that I think. Fourthly, I don't believe that all these editors, etc., are constantly pursuing Hoa Nguyen for her work solely because she is a "woman of color". If her work wasn't very, very fine she would not be in the demand you describe. Of course it's an interesting question. Most sensible people occasionally wonder about the value of their own work so I don't blame Hoa for her doubts. Fifthly, re: the preponderance of "straight white males" among the contributors of the new issue of "Mike and Dale's Younger Poets" . . . I don't know if they are all white or not but they certainly are not uniformly "straight" . . . Check it out, I did. Sixthly I respect Dale's actually tireless commitment to the older poets he admires (Clark, Dorn, Kyger, Whalen, etc.), a beautiful thing to see; likewise his attempts, no matter how tortuous, to find a link between their writing and history with those of the younger poets, his peers. Seventh, I disagree, as will many others on the list, with the idea that Gertrude Stein's poetics were deplorable or stemmed from "self narcissism." "Condoned" is too strong a word to use in this context. Well, there I've gone on and on about this, but forgive me, all, the issues tempted me into speaking out a bit. I just thought of a few anecdotes to finish with, and one is, what is the name of that magazine that used to come to my door every month or so, edited by that man (Ellis?) who moved to Jerusalem or somewhere? I'll forget my own name next, but the magazine featured one or two poets in every issue, and after a while you just couldn't help noticing that every one of them was a man. This went on and on for years. I'd rip open the envelope and pull out the thing, and yes, there were another couple of men blathering about this that and the other . . . It became amusing in this awful way. Someone help me out here with the name of the magazine, I'm sure many of you were in it. The other one I remember was "Hole," this one issue came and sure enough, there was one woman in it, and she (Karen McCormack?) was only in it because the compositors had butchered her poem enough in a previous issue so that the editors had to print it again in this one. I'm sure Louis Cabri took a lot of heat for that on both counts. God bless you all for your work. XXX Kevin (Killian) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:03:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" request to the list: wondering if anybody might point to examples of other mags that might serve as models for dale&co's efforts: ie, NYschool/Naropa/Pound nexus aesthetics, w/ a wider demographic contributor base? & if such doesnt come to mind, praps the real critique being made is of that aesthetic, rather than this particular mag? asever luigi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:25:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: The silence of the list In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Still smarting from Luigi's description of list silence as marking an uninformed or naive post -- well after my first few posts here I've met a great calm -- it is, what, us? True, hurt and silence go hand in hand -- but there is also the vygotskian idea that silence is (or can be) a zone of proximal development? that you don't make a noise while you're jumping -- you give off light -- this over and against the taoist 'who knows does not speak' stereolab likes to sing -- since what we're speaking about is sort of singing? If not beauty, then justice? If not justice then life itself? If not life then the codes? If not the codes then the hollow words -- bells are hollow. Cells are hollow. The dells are all et cetera they say but you walk there and if you can afford it you've had a variation in your experience. Meaning apparently is in variation, and in variation from variation (chant, Bach, aleph, deal). And so the companies are run with an eye to the pe ratio -- but the consolidations and the writeoffs ought to lead to a recession? Park smells like rats. So that "I cannot make it cohere" leads to "I will not connect the dots" but then no one does and Plato blames writing. Poets, specifically. Money, says Frank Kermode, says John Buchan says Wallace Stevens, is a kind of poetry. But "I cannot make it" was Ez about money. While Stein wrote sensitively, narcissistically (!) about it. You may not pool your money to hire a teacher to keep the opposition from being accurate when they say classes are held in bathrooms. You may not blame Robert Moses. Names will not do. Only learning, which is singing. And money. Other divisions are ways to make people forgetful about learning-singing and money. Forget money. Art did, and look where that got it. So Gates makes up a third of what the government says it won't give Cambridge, and this just after Rodefer gets to the states. And everybody is happily global because the brown decades are just that. So that's what it's like to walk to work -- Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 08:27:26 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Content-Type: text/plain h. steinburg in response to dale: >Dale: Not to sound condescending, but you need to make more friends. Or >to spin it another way, all you have to do is ask. If you get bad Gertrude >Stein imitations, be an editor and demand better (which is your perogative >as an editor, not because you happen to be white or male). > >I side with Dodie on this one. > >Hugh Steinberg > This advice reminds me of two things. One is a Sienfeld episode where George invites an African American man to dinner to impress his boss (a man of color). It also reminds me of work and m. damon's reference to the "old boy's network" -- which I experience as the "old white network"-- I work for a consulting firm. Our small group has a balance gender mix and is all European American/white. In a meeting yesterday, when discussing new hires, the partner (male) says "We need more minorities!" Having opportunities -- whether in the workplace or in getting published-- is, well, great, for me. (I sometimes question whether it is transformative-- economics still rule opportunities -- personally, I feel like the kind of teaching I was lucky to do-- with inner city youth-- created opportunities for diverse people and economically depressed persons more than my getting printed in a magazine did.) It is very frustrating to feel "collected" like a stuffed bird with exotic feathers. Some of my friends of color dislike making friends with or participating in events with white people because as one friend said, "I don't feel like diversifying their (group)". Mr. Steinberg's suggestion feels like that. I have struggled with this very much, and as Dale mentioned, we talk about this matter constantly. We live with it. And I appreciate our discussions-- and our discussions here on the list-- what is the responsibility one has as an editor? Also related: Henry Gould spoke of "old idols"-- I sometimes feel as if aestethics are meaningless and that editors often include the "big" names regardless of what they actually are writing. And finally, I am so tired of the reference to "sides"-- in so binary, limiting and inaccurate to the complexities of matters at hand! I am not on a side, I refuse sides, which side, what is a side, who defines the sides? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:33:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: The Paradox and the Name of its Disco Tents In-Reply-To: <199709261503.LAA04960@csu-e.csuohio.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The World. Hanging Loose. Misc. Proj. No Trees.. Also, I'd say the Language school is a metamorphosis of NY/Pound so I'd include exactly the magazines Dale is distancing himself from in the vapor trail of that nexus. As always, the "real critique" is elsewhere. - J At 11:03 AM -0400 9/26/97, robert drake wrote: >request to the list: wondering if anybody might point to >examples of other mags that might serve as models for dale&co's >efforts: ie, NYschool/Naropa/Pound nexus aesthetics, w/ a >wider demographic contributor base? > >& if such doesnt come to mind, praps the real critique being >made is of that aesthetic, rather than this particular mag? > >asever >luigi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 10:02:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There are so many good posts already on this one but it is just too delicious to pass up and like with Kevin, it has woken me from my silence, the housecleaning can wait. I think I can limit my points to two. 1)"But, because there are so few poets of color writing experiemental poetry" writes Dale. I feel ridiculous even having to point out how untrue this is. Of course then we get into a discussion of terms. What we mean by 'experimental' even 'writers of color.' But when I pulled books off my shelf this summer to teach my "Experimental Reading & Writing" class, this was not a problem. Among the writers we read were Kamau Braithwaite, Rochelle Owens, Clarke Coolidge, Susan Howe, Nicole Brossard, Paul Beatty, Jayne Cortez, Sapphire, Beckett, Clark Coolidge, Amiri Baraka--but then again I do tend to define things broadly. It's seems obvious to me that interesting language often comes from the margin, if its not being heard, it's just not being heard. 2) I think this whole issue of picking someone just because they are a . . . can be laid to rest. Only the most unimaginative and mediocre chooser would put themselves in that position. On the other hand why not just assume that there is proportional quality coming out of all sorts of bodies? I mean just assume it's true. In my office job I noticed that six men were the finalists for an director position. I blurted to my boss 'you're going to extend the search aren't you' and he looked at me blankly. I just assume parity is a basic issue of justice and community. Can I use the word standard? Thanks Maria for your comments on the Pound/Stein comment. all yours, RL ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:02:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:36 AM -0500 9/26/97, Maria Damon wrote: >i second that emotion; and i also, personally, wince at playing stein off >against pound in a way that casts stein as the narcissist, the errant one, >the one with the "problem." to my mind, this is a gendered and politicized >determination as much as it is an aesthetic one --i.e. women are often >accused of narcissism, self-indulgence, etc and that judgment is used to >keep them from access to the renown and respect enjoyed by their male >peers. dale, i wonder if it'd be fair to say that your aesthetic sense may >itself be the product of conditioning in an unjust society? Well said, Maria--but this has already been said SO OFTEN . . . in the 70s over and over and then we can swirl our heads around and look back to Virginia Woolf. It's disheartening that you would STILL have to be saying it in the 90s, almost the milleniumn. Misogyny is indeed a vile weed that one has to continually take a sickle to. However, when Dale wrote: >Most >writers outside of my small camp follow a deplorable tradition of >poetics established by Gertrude Stein's self narcissim. I believe that he was not just talking about women's writing in particular. I think this is a veiled reference to Language Writing, that Dale is carrying on his mentor Tom Clark's 20+ year vendenta against it. Forgive me if my interpretation is off--the passage is very vague, I wonder if not purposely so. Dale is quite specific in the women he condemns--that broad highly diverse group who have been published in Chain. Even though Chain also prints men, we all know it's basically a women's magazine, I mean, it may as well be Better Homes and Gardens. But these Gertrude Stein followers, who seem to be many gendered remain vague, veiled--I wonder if that isn't because there is a predominance of men involved (i.e., powerful beings to be taken seriously)--and therefore there would me a greater degree of risk involved in openly critiquing them. I can sympathize with Tom Clark's hatred of Language Writers. I was living in San Francisco when the Lang-Pos took over the scene--it was brutal and many people were treated very badly. But, Dale, what has anybody done to you that you would call whatever work you have in mind "deplorable." We all have our likes and dislikes, but this violence of emotion is very troubling and dangerous, I feel--especially when nobody is fighting with you. I'm also curious as to how you, Dale, define self-narcissism. Is there a narcissism that isn't "self" narcississm? The last time I heard you read there was lots of "I" poetry lovingly detailing your visits and conversations with your friends. How is that not narcissism? I should add that this is not a critique. I'm very interested in narcissism. One more thing: from what I've seen, most writers outside of your small camp follow a deplorable tradition of academic poetry and spoken word poetry. This fish bowl of "exploratory" writing (as Steve McCaffery calls it) is very tiny. It is not the whole world. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 09:53:02 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Content-Type: text/plain Dodie: It's not surprising you want to label me a misogynist. We've been over that ground before. Or wasn't it homophobe you called me before? Or racist? This kind of address is an unimaginative form of name calling that closes discussion and reduces provoking and beneficial discourse. Call me what you want, these issues remain. And they are very touchy. But they won't go away because they are impossible to ignore with such attempts at closure. I'd prefer also if you would leave Tom out of this. This discussion, while perhaps in his spirit, has nothing whatsoever to do with him. Hey, I'm a big boy misogynist now on my own. If you want, I can backchannel my credentials. In addition, Tom has all but given up poetry and I haven't spoken with him in months. Re: Language Poetry. That's a fairly restricted group of poets, to my mind. And I don't agree particularly with some of their methodology, although, at various times, I have found their art to be quite compelling. I think those people were responding to specific political and aesthetic pressures resticted to their own historical milieu. What's followed, however, are watered down, thoughtless attempts to imitate Language methods and forms by younger writers. The results are not very interesting from my point of view. And that is all it is. My own small point of view. But I'm glad my opinions are challenged because it makes me think. Otherwise, I find it perfectly admirable that you challenge me so openly and publicly. But it's beginning to be more like a personal vendetta on your part rather than a discussion of issues: race, gender, aesthetics. Why don't you send your bull dog barks backchannel without boring other folks. Well, gossipy personal affairs are fun, but still. Perhaps some Grace? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:12:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: _Boxkite_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey, let me tell you about: _BoxKite: A journal of poetry & poetics_ This is a stunning new journal (it almost seems silly to call it that: at 320 pages, with a beautiful cover by Jess, wonderful layout & typography throughout, including a section on an artist Idris Murphy's work, & all that writing, it's a BOOK, & a beauty) with many contributions from listmembers among others. Oh by the way, it's from Australia, another big international poetry zine to stand with John Kinsella's _SALT_, making me wonder just what's happening down under these days. Editor James Taylor has gathered poems, essays, & reviews by an astounding group of writers & mixed them up for a great read. I cant take the hours to name them all, but: Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Armand Schwerner, Ronald Johnson, Robert Duncan (from his notebooks), Robert Creeley, Norma Cole, Robert Kelly, Susan Howe, Lyn Hejinian, Rae Armantrout, Michael Palmer, Charles Bernstein, Rosemarie Waldrop, Hank Lazer, Susan Schultz, Pierre Joris, Chris Cheek, Charles Alexander, etc.; Robert Adamson, John Kinsella, Kris Hemensley, Tracy Ryan, & others from Oz; many translations, including new Brazilian poets; Tom Raworth, Peter Middleton, Tom Leonard. So many more. Ive been reading my way through with great delight for a few days now. Strange to admit, here on e-mail, perhaps, but I remain a dedicated bibliophile & _Boxkite_ is the answer to a bibliophile's dreams, it's just such a *Book*. You can order it ($20AU for a subscription + $5. postage) from The Poetics Foundation, GPO Box 1500, Sydney, NSW 2001, Australia. Fax: (042) 94 3264. Or e-mail editor James Taylor at & ask for more information. And hey, The Poetics Foundation accepts VISA & Mastercard, which makes ordering easy. (Oh, well yes, I do have an essay therein too, but dont let that stop you, this is a major addition to the journal scene & deserves our support.) Gotts go read some more.... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the gloom, the gold gathers the light against it. Ezra Pound ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:14:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Bibliography Help? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Listmembers: For an annotated bibliography I'll be compiling over the next few months I would be interested in hearing (backchannel) from those of you who have published essays, articles, chapters, interviews, substantial reviews, or whole books on: (a) Younger poets (loose rule of thumb: first books after 1985) working in the "New American" (read: avant-garde, experimental, formally radical) tradition and/or (b) language writing Since some of the most important critical work in both these areas has appeared in fugitive, ephemeral, little distributed, and unindexed venues, I would especially appreciate tips as to work not likely to be retrieved by conventional academic search engines. The Annotated Bibliography for English Studies (ABES) is a bibliographic resource edited in England, published in Holland, and available on-line and by CD-Rom (for more info e-mail: abes@uea.ac.uk). The post-1945 American Poetry section, which will include the two sections mentioned above, is being co-edited by Geoffrey Ward and Charles Bernstein. Thanks, Steve Evans steve_evans@ids.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:26:20 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: Spam Emotions, Spam Thinking, Flames Fairing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I getting the distinct impression that this list is addicted to drama. Is this what words mean? Miekal who has his fill of drama living in a community of 15 or so anarchists. -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:22:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: The Paradox and the Name of its Disco Tents In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanx to Jordan for his mention of Misc. Proj... I would definitely add to his list: TinFish Mark Prejsnar Atlanta On Fri, 26 Sep 1997, Jordan Davis wrote: > The World. Hanging Loose. Misc. Proj. No Trees.. Also, I'd say the Language > school is a metamorphosis of NY/Pound so I'd include exactly the magazines > Dale is distancing himself from in the vapor trail of that nexus. As > always, the "real critique" is elsewhere. - J > > At 11:03 AM -0400 9/26/97, robert drake wrote: > >request to the list: wondering if anybody might point to > >examples of other mags that might serve as models for dale&co's > >efforts: ie, NYschool/Naropa/Pound nexus aesthetics, w/ a > >wider demographic contributor base? > > > >& if such doesnt come to mind, praps the real critique being > >made is of that aesthetic, rather than this particular mag? > > > >asever > >luigi > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:23:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this is all very stimulating, because, as dodie points out, while the relationship between aesthetic judgment and the social conditions that give rise to it has been discussed to death elsewhere, to the point where it really can be a tiresome cliche, the general tenor of POETICS (not everyone all the time, clearly) is notably either silent on or hostile to challenges to "aesthetics" as the bottom line. i.e. my questions a few weeks ago: why does the avant-g police its borders so vigilantly and why is aesthetic consensus the bottom line? lots of people responded to the first question and virtually no one to the second. hence my comment also that the blurb for m davidson's book (md argues that the aesthetics of modernism went hand in hand w/ certain historical developments of the 20th c that determined "how we read" or some such) is hardly a novel argument, but refreshing to hear here. i have nothing against people publishing their friends, exercising strong editorial control, etc., and i have nothing against dale smith or his poetry or his new magazine. it's the defensive appeal to an aesthetic presumed to be objective and universal, and , worse, has moral overtones (i.e. stein is a "deplorable" influence because her writing is morally flawed) that the problem arises. i'm also taken with kevin's point that publishing what one likes is a worthy policy to challenge. one thing that struck me about the zines he writes about in his bio of spicer is how *little* editorial control, or issues of "quality" determined what got published and what didn't. there was a sense of inclusiveness that seems to me to be just fine, and actually pretty inspiring. not that every mag shd be broadly inclusive; but let's not write off the ones that are, or the spirit they embody, as failing to police the borders of good writing. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:13:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents why is it that when the issues are primarily male-identified issues like war, rebellion against father, etc., the poetry is described as "poetry of real, historical-personal experience, of people who have 'been there' in fact or authentic imagination"... but when it is about FEMALE experience, i.e. betrayal, abuse, being a nurse or civilian administrator in war, being a non-combattant caught up in war, it is " abstract, inhuman, solipsistic, hermetic," i.e. writing men "don't understand" and as such, devalued... sigh. i for one found the writing of Lady Borton on vietnam and vietnam war some of the most gripping "vet" writing i've ever read. e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 11:56:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: picking up sides (name-paradox thread) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Listopolitans, I welcome the many sensitive & various postings on this topic, & even though I may be seen to have kicked it off inadvertently if not drunkenly, I may be permitted a further & more sober posting on a couple of its aspects. Hoa Nguyen, I echo yr question & yr defiance re sides, & not wanting to be on one. But one thing I hear in the echo, one thing I answer myself, is that the sides are picked for us, & will never be entirely transcended, not until (in only part as a result of our individual eforts) society undergoes its slow mutations....It's like that Yeats' line, "They'll never love you for yourself/ and not yr yellow hair". I when younger "didnt know there was a side" that I was on...that was Fat City. Later, by the time it was pointed out to me, my City was growing Leaner. Now I am A Straight White Protestant Male, subject to quota-stringencies (in the matter of arts grants, for e.g.), & probably further categorized as LangPo FellowTraveler. It doesnt matter that I was bi for years in my youth, that the california sun makes me look Bengali, or that I am atheist pantheist zen marxist anarchist, or that most of my confidantes have been women & gay men, or that (in my opinion, granted) my poetry doesnt overlap much with anyone's. And even though I am now enjoying minority status as an Old Fart, I know the injustice you speak of, if only faintly compared to yours; it still smarts. And it is unlikely in my case & and that of other SWM's, that we will be invited to help diversify someone's group, leastwise here in America. I get discriminated against for my yellow (well, i do dwell in the past) hair, but not loved for it. But of course, there is a cultural/language usage base that continues to give me advantages in a society that is still tipped somewhat the same way. I reach for my Yeats when needing a hit. Excuse the lengthy background to my cry of sympathy! I want what I write to be *poetry* to others, not an instance of cultural diversity/monotony. I dont want to be the writer of it, do you know what i mean? Because *I* can be pegged. I want *the reader* to recognize herself as the author of it. Impossible, impossible. I hope it isnt published because of my lengthy history of smallpress publishing, because someone likes me (god forbid!), or because for 3 years I attended Haberdashers' Aske's Hampstead (huh? where?)....Any more than a person of the theater wants to have gotten the part because good at blowjobs. *On its merits*--thats what one wants. But there'll never be a neutral jury. So dont Dale & co-editor have the right to go on representing in their own ways a bent twisted society (v. maria Damon's post) even while others who "know better" (despite being members of the same bent, twisted society) have the right to attack, chide, or try persuade them otherwise about their policies? "Younger Poets" is one zine among hundreds (v. Spencer Selby's great list), & is not likely to get much help grantwise in the present climate. Isnt it *human* (trans-cultural) to be let go to hell by one's own route, even if it is equally *human* to try to save people from so doing ? I realize this can sound like wishy-washy liberalism, but I am arguing for other perceptions re this (lack of) position. This thread is a worthwhile argument that cannot resolve, is one thing I post to point out. And at base I am arguing for the purity of the work of art, a purity it may well require a lifetime's education to recognize or realize, a radiance that will forever suffer interference from the many-colored glass of the multi-cultural classwar-ridden dome. I think I am arguing for what Barrett Watten once summed up when he said : "I want my words to be my own." Bad History is the anatagonist in this endeavor. I think we need to acknowledge both, the ideal and its enemy. They do form a symmetry. I want my words to be my own/I want my poem to be exempt from its association with me : these, to my mind, are two facets of one figure. As my own, New, bringing news for us; as my own, tainted with Bad History, that made me one of us. Hoa, much in this post is only marginally relevant to yours, & for that I apologize. But I thank you for the words that sparked my impulse to compose this, even if I come shortly to regret having done so. --Will i be wiser later? Then why bother to live! David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:29:35 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:13:21 -0400 from On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:13:21 -0400 Eliza McGrand said: >why is it that when the issues are primarily male-identified issues like war, >rebellion against father, etc., the poetry is described as "poetry of real, >historical-personal experience, of people who have 'been there' in fact or >authentic imagination"... but when it is about FEMALE experience, i.e. >betrayal, abuse, being a nurse or civilian administrator in war, being >a non-combattant caught up in war, it is " abstract, inhuman, solipsistic, >hermetic," i.e. writing men "don't understand" and as such, devalued... >sigh. i for one found the writing of Lady Borton on vietnam and vietnam war >some of the most gripping "vet" writing i've ever read. Elliza, are you speaking in general or reading things into what I said about the meeting at which Honig spoke? The steroetyping you describe goes on a lot and the issue was brought up, indirectly at least, by a couple of people (including me) at the meeting described - ie. Honig was reminded that "life's battles" are ongoing & all over the place. But neither Honig at the meeting or me in my post called women's experience, wartime or otherwise, abstract, inhuman, etc. Although one person there, who had discussed these matters with EH beforehand, said he (EH) had been trying to understand Jorie Graham's work & having a hard time - he was thinking of her work as representative of an "abstract" trend. In any case, you can read misogyny into this if you want. Honig's main issue was that poetry loses something by not making the effort to bring over lived experience - especially the apocalyptic historical experiences of this century - in an attempt to represent SHARED experience. HIS position. "Bringing it over" is never simple though, considering the blinders we put on or learn. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 13:49:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: name, paradox, &c. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ok, just recovering from a badass cold, and something tells me to leave this one alone... seems there's just so much contentiousness in the air of late... but ok, i'll bite: first: you can avoid publishing one aesthetic camp by choosing your friends NOT on the basis of their aesthetic... and then publishing your friends! (not your aesthetic)... (((of course this is tough to do sometimes, if you *really* don't like a friend's work))) what your publishing commitment then might amount to, i'm not sure---depends on your friends, which depends on you!... and hey---i use the term "friends" here advisedly, and most selectively... secondly: on the one hand, and to be a bit extreme about it, one would be wise not to assume that publishing an african-american poet will result in poetry marked, say, by black dialect... which means, one would be wise not to assume that a commitment to publishing one aesthetic will necessarily result in a specific gender/race/class etc (though it very well may, and often does)... if you oppose the simplicities of identity politics, then you owe it to yourself to oppose aesthetic assumptions pertaining thereto... and turning it the other way some, with a due eye for appropriation, and just a tad figuratively---white guys can play the blues, yes, conventional and otherwise... on the other hand, one would be wise not to assume that the gender/race/class of one's friends is an arbitrary reality... which is to say, that if you find yourself hanging out mostly with white folks and are white (like me, sadly), you can bet your sweet ass that this has *something* to do with (our) social-institutional-political structures (and of course, with your own convictions and abilities and motivations and and and)... and if you're committed, as susan has suggested, to challenging as a publisher/editor in any wayshapeorform something called the status quo, why then you ought at least *as a publisher/editor* to consider what you can contribute in the way of challenging these structures (which have clearly been internalized by all of us, to varying degrees)... perhaps, yes, you can challenge said structures through the writings of a specific dominant group, but i would argue that history offers an alternative, more complicated view of this matter (and i predicate here a belief in a dominant group, or groups)... and hey, actually, publishing, say, the work of people of color---people of color who are and who are not mainstream writers---is far easier than creating a network of friends and acquaintances that reaches across the color line (assuming this latter is not already a part of your experience)... it may even be a way for one to begin to establish working relationships with people of color... (((and "people of color" out t/here, please please forgive me this apparent objectification, and this apparent urgency to "reach you" in this post))) if on the other hand you are not opposed to the status quo in any wayshapeorform when it comes to your publishing/editing self, and wish simply to contribute an aesthetic product to a peopled world that some people find relatively fucked, why then you run the risk of offering up something that some people won't really give a hoot about, b/c your gesture will likely be seen as somewhat beside the point (by some people)... even if you oppose the status quo and yet presume to do so through the selective work of selected dominant groups, the result is likely to be the same... which, i suppose, is always a risk, in any case... which, i suppose, is ok too, but doesn't exactly light *my* fire, motivationally *or* aesthetically speaking... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:53:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Bibliography Help? In-Reply-To: Steve Evans "Bibliography Help?" (Sep 26, 1:14pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Dear Listmembers: >For an annotated bibliography I'll be compiling over the next few months I >would be interested in hearing (backchannel) from those of you who have >published essays, articles, chapters, interviews, substantial reviews, or >whole books on: >(a) Younger poets (loose rule of thumb: first books after 1985) working in >the "New American" (read: avant-garde, experimental, formally radical) >tradition >and/or >(b) language writing Hit that wonderful archive (and the rest for that matter) in the EPC (Electronic Poetry Center) at: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc. Bring your lunch with you. BB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:24:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <19970926165303.26707.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:53 AM -0700 9/26/97, Dale Smith wrote: >It's not surprising you want to label me a misogynist. Dale I didn't call you a misogynist. My reply was to Maria's post about a general cultural trend that's gone on since the beginning of time. My exact line was: "Misogyny is indeed a vile weed that one has to continually take a sickle to." This line was intentionally overblown to be humorous. I then went on to say that I felt your reference to Stein was NOT about misgyny but something broader. >Otherwise, I find it perfectly admirable that you challenge me so openly >and publicly. But it's beginning to be more like a personal vendetta on >your part rather than a discussion of issues: race, gender, aesthetics. >Why don't you send your bull dog barks backchannel without boring other >folks. Well, gossipy personal affairs are fun, but still. Perhaps some Perhaps I'm missing something here, Dale, but I see no reason why I'd have a personal vendetta against you. So, let me make this clear, I, Dodie Bellamy, do not have a personal vendetta against Dale Smith. You posted an incendiary post and I was responding. Remember, the women who do Chain are *my* friends. Though I'm sure they really don't need my defense, they're doing such wonderful, important work. Again, this emotional combustability on your part, I feel, is very dangerous. Emotional zeal often is kissing cousins with dehumanization of the Other. I did discuss issues in my last post, but since I used a manner that's different than from yours I'm accused of being gossipy with bulldogs--i.e., not to be taken seriously. Let me quote Maria on this issue: >women are often >accused of narcissism, self-indulgence, etc and that judgment is used to >keep them from access to the renown and respect enjoyed by their male >peers. dale, i wonder if it'd be fair to say that your aesthetic sense may >itself be the product of conditioning in an unjust society? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 12:57:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: a little grace? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" well . . . (and excuse me,,,, I've just gotten itno town and read all these posts at one go) -- I suppoase it's one thing to create a mag. for the express purpose of publishing poetry working in one set of aesthetic assumptions -- and I suppose it's another thing to set up a mag. in which you publish mostly "friends" -- but, in defense of those seemingly OK acts, to remark that few "minority" poets write in innovative/experimental/blackmtn/nyschool whatever modes -- while at the same time giving every indication of never having really bothered to find out if such is in fact the case -- that is far more than simply being provocative -- yes, please, grace to read as variously as possible ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:19:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: henry "Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents" (Sep 26, 2:29pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Don't shoot until you see the whites of their eyes. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 15:23:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: picking up sides (name-paradox thread) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i like much of what bromige sez: sides have been picked for us and in some ways we're capitulating to the powers that be by biting the bait that sez: "lowbrow pc multicultural bootlicking fascists over here -- true poets and lovers of the muse over there." or "there's only a *few* 'decent' experimental poets of color out there..." it's like the arguments against affirmative action that i hear from my older colleagues and some of the younger ones, a specious representation v quality mindset. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:13:20 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Sacred Cows Content-Type: text/plain All right. Briefly, sans the modernist manifesto lingo. And so I can be taken out of context once again. M&D is open to anyone regardless of race, sex, gender or religion. It's open to anything that strikes our fancy. I try to keep the thing as inclusive as possible. I do prefer certain poems over others. I respect those who publish what they don't like. But if I don't have an emotional attachment to what I publish, it's not going to appear in my magazine. For me, emotion is not "dangerous," as Dodie suggests, nor does it promote the "dehumanization of the Other." Rather, emotion promotes a sympathetic response to others. Without that dramatic connection, language loses some of its power to communicate. A poetics that appeals to the mind only falls apart under the weight of its own logic, its own pitifully misguided propositions. The mind, after all, likes control. It digs that kind of power. Emotions fight against that urge for control in the very tissues of our being. Language, when it's executed well, is formed from an emotional impulse that is, hopefully, guided by the mind toward a clear directon of some kind. My missives of late have been a bit heavy, which is in part, I think, a reaction to the mostly bland language posted in this electronic format. Forgive my indelicacies. And buy M&D's. Re: Stein. That's what really seems to be upsetting to certain people on the list. Well, I dismiss her work, not because she is a woman, but because I find it unbearable to read. So many posts have been profoundly condescending and I appreciate your efforts to set me straight, so to say. But Stein, who is adored by many, including Phil Whalen and Alice Notely, both of whom I deeply admire, provides a kind of model for a poetics that I find misleading, presumptive, and ultimately useless because she takes you nowhere. You gain nothing by reading her. I picked on Chain, although it is a journal composed mainly of women, because I find the work distant, cold, and removed from emotional possibilities. I have no sympathy for its poetics nor do I read any sympathetic writing between its covers. It is over long, incredibly laden with awkward verse void of music and heavy on a tired methodology that, rather than confronting the idea of the Father, as those editors have suggested, merely ignore that figure, and pretend it does not exist. It's great to take a stand on something. But you need feet to stand on and Chain's poetics have not even a leg. But again, as I've stressed. These are my opinions and I assumed they would be ignored. Luckily, there are many who feel the necessity of confronting the ills of the world. And, I suppose, not feeling any sympathy for Stein and expressing such, is dangerous business these days. Or maybe, probably, I am being overly dramatic, and all of this will convert back into the dark zone of forgetfulness within a day or so. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:25:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Names, Paradoxes, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's interesting that several white male contributors to this thread have admitted having trepidations about getting involved. I think that's a shame and admit to having trepidations of my own. Feels a little like peering over the rim of the foxhole. Despite the best will in the world accidents have a lot to do with what one chooses to publish, and I don't mean the large accidents of birth, class and education. Unfamiliar poetry, it should surprise no one, often takes an effort to get into, and one is flooded with new poets all the time. Somehow a particular body of work gets one's attention. Case in point: the first book that Junction Press published is Susie Mee's _The Undertaker's Daughter_. Susie and I had been friends for a few years and had got into the habit of working over each other's stuff. So I got to know these poems that I might in other circumstances have passed over with hardly a glance, because they are more conservative technically than what I usually find useful--I had, for reasons having nothing to do with the press (it didn't exist yet), spent a lot of time with them. And they're very good and more than weird enough to meet my needs (in case anyone's curious, Susie's father was the undertaker in Howard Finster's home town--Howard's portrait of her father adorns the cover). Mervyn Taylor is another example. I was going out with a woman who worked part-time at a school where Mervyn taught. She sponsored a reading by the students and faculty, and I went along for the ride. The stuff bowled me over, and I'm now waiting for yet another book manuscript from him. I wasn't looking for a black poet--I wasn't looking for anything beyond being courteous to the woman that I saw very briefly--and Mervyn was not one of my friends or in my circle, although he is now both. These books came to me by means of what I'll call accidents of attention. They were chosen, like the others, because I found them useful. "Useful" is usually what a writer means when he or she says that he or she likes another writer's work--useful for one's work or one's spiritual development (for writers usually the same thing) or for the expansion of one's taste at that juncture. It happens through no conscious fault of my own that the press (like the magazine I did in the 70's and the several series' that I've run) thus far is diverse enough to be considered politically correct--not including my own book, three are by women (of two different religions), one of whom is hispanic, altho not US hispanic, one is by a black man, the others by white males. But this is purely fortuitous. The other books came to me because I asked for them from friends or because they were recommended to me by friends--they had commanded more than ordinary attention for reasons other than the poems themselves. The diversity is, I think, a matter of the size and diversity of the market (the agora) I hung out in. Had I been in Boise instead of New York matters might have been different. It's not that I make no efforts. I have approached poets, as I did Mervyn, who were not part of my extended circle. Thus far most of the poets I've found useful, in whatever circles they travel, already have publishers and are not available to Junction. That's another kind of accident. And I've asked for manuscripts from poets who impressed me at readings but whose work didn't make it for me independent of their presence. Junction's next four books are by men. One is hispanic, and Mervyn's second means one is by a black man, although that still leaves me with just the one person of color. That will bring me to 11 books--at what point will I be exposed to charges that I discriminate against Asians? I'm certainly aware that that's a possibility, but the standard won't change. Throw as wide a net as I might it won't bring in every fish, and of those I catch I'll still only choose the ones I find most useful (I'm aware of how smelly that last metaphor is). It's entirely possible that Junction's next four books will be by Asian women, but I'll be able to live with it if they're not. In my magazine I once published a poem that I'd liked when I heard it read by the poet. In the wee hours when I was typesetting it I was overcome with nausea--given more scrutiny the depth of the poem's dishonesty came home to me. But I was stuck--the piece was accepted. It happens that it was by someone I knew well. I take my publishing very seriously--each book is my product as well as the poets--so I've tried real hard to make sure that that never happens again, although the poem in question got a lot of praise from the magazine's readers. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:49:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Sacred Ruminants Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" now this is really disingenuous -- Who was it in this exchange who posited it as a question of publishing "minority" or women poets VS publishing poetry "I" like?? Why would anyone think that they would have to publish poetry they didn't like in order to publish poets who are not white men? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:18:37 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dbkk@SIRIUS.COM wrote: > > Kevin Killian wrote, in part: I just thought of a few anecdotes to finish with, and one is, what is the name of that magazine that used to come to my door every month or so, edited by that man (Ellis?) who moved to Jerusalem or somewhere? I'll forget my own name next, but the magazine featured one or two poets in every issue, and after a while you just couldn't help noticing that every one of them was a man. This went on and on for years. I'd rip open the envelope and pull out the thing, and yes, there were another couple of men blathering about this that and the other . > . . It became amusing in this awful way. > Someone help me out here with the name of the magazine, I'm sure many of you were in it. > > Hi, Kevin. This is Dan Zimmerman, one of those guys Stephen Ellis published in _:that:_, the magazine he and Stephen Dignazio edited out of Peacham, VT. Steve moved first to Ra'anana, Israel, and now lives in Amman, Jordan, where he now publishes Oasii broadsides. This year he also published _Blue Horitals_, a collaboration I did with my late friend and mentor, John Clarke [former editor of _intent._]. Just looking at the copies of _:that:_ I have at hand, I find among the first ten issues [two writers in each] Margueritte, Karen Driscoll, Susan Smith Nash and Cathleen Shattuck. [By the way, a review of Gerrit Lansing's _Heavenly Tree Soluble Forest_ which appears at http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/spt/signals2.html refers to Gerrit (and John Clarke, and me) as "[belonging] to that much-maligned group 'the Olson cult,' 'the last all-male group in the U.S. gathered around a particular poet' (Marjorie Perloff)." The list of 19 "members" which follows includes Joanne Kyger and Alice Notley!] Maybe I'm just an old fart, but I see no reason whatsoever why Dale Smith or Steve Ellis or any _independent_ editor should feel obliged to publish anything he or she doesn't want to, or even to seek work from any particular kind of group he or she doesn't want to. I stress _independent_ because, as editor of _College English Notes_, the newsletter of the New Jersey College English Association [and answerable to an editorial board], I feel obliged to include work by the non-white, non-straight, and non-male _IF_ I like it well enough, but also to seek such work through calls for contributions from the members of NJCEA. When I have _independently_ edited magazines in the past, I asked for work from writers I admired, period [that was a long time ago; few or no n-ws, n-ss, n-ms came to mind--not that I excluded anyone on principle!]. If I edit any magazines _independently_ in the future, I expect to post public calls for work, but may not, depending on what I want to do artistically, issue by issue. And why not? "Who shall say I am not the happy genius of my household?" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 18:42:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Names, Paradoxes, etc. In-Reply-To: mark weiss "Names, Paradoxes, etc." (Sep 26, 2:25pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark writes: >These books came to me by means of what I'll call accidents of attention. >They were chosen, like the others, because I found them useful. "Useful" is >usually what a writer means when he or she says that he or she likes >another writer's work--useful for one's work or one's spiritual development >(for writers usually the same thing) or for the expansion of one's taste at >that juncture. No bone to pick here other than to say that the word useful in the context of this post makes me feel uneasy. Useful is a pregnant term when used in this context. Too entrenched as a term of authority or the establishment. In the present popularity contest atmosphere of publishing, useful extends to the person, the author who becomes useful to the publisher or to the critic for perhaps reason of race, gender, etc. Useful seems to me to better suggest a pass/fail for authorship; the minimum requirement having been met (chosen for us perhaps), the author is the one which becomes useful, the poem a mere incidental of the exchange. The next thing you know, we are speaking of a poet as being "owned" as the dead poets are. BB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:11:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Names, Paradoxes, etc. In-Reply-To: <9709261842.ZM18398@plhp517.comm.mot.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Of course _I_ knew what I meant, and I didn't think it could be misconstrued so thoroughly. Here's at it again, more completely: the work that takes me from where I am as writer and person to someplace I hadn't suspected was there. Not likely to have been "established," or it wouldn't have been a surprise. Gerritt Lansing's work, for example. Now I'm not always ready for the new thing when it appears in my life. Hell, there was a time when all hummingbirds looked the same to me, because my eye had not learned its lessons yet. So one poem of Gerritt's might have gone right past me without my noticing while I might have been there to meet another. I may be there for the first poem some other time, at some other juncture. If I am, it will be a coming together out of which something else may come, hardly appropriation as chattel. Not much of a chip in the fame game, either. I chose to call my press Junction for a reason. At 06:42 PM 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >Mark writes: > >>These books came to me by means of what I'll call accidents of attention. >>They were chosen, like the others, because I found them useful. "Useful" is >>usually what a writer means when he or she says that he or she likes >>another writer's work--useful for one's work or one's spiritual development >>(for writers usually the same thing) or for the expansion of one's taste at >>that juncture. > > >No bone to pick here other than to say that the word useful in the context of >this post makes me feel uneasy. Useful is a pregnant term when used in this >context. Too entrenched as a term of authority or the establishment. In the >present popularity contest atmosphere of publishing, useful extends to the >person, the author who becomes useful to the publisher or to the critic for >perhaps reason of race, gender, etc. Useful seems to me to better suggest a >pass/fail for authorship; the minimum requirement having been met (chosen for >us perhaps), the author is the one which becomes useful, the poem a mere >incidental of the exchange. The next thing you know, we are speaking of a poet >as being "owned" as the dead poets are. > >BB > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 19:08:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents i don't know honig, henry, so can't speak to his opinions. but his words echo those stirring mailer-esque words heard only too often... if he wants poems about authentic experience, how can he say there is a lack with the EXPLOSION of poetry by women starting in sixties and continuing to present day? judy grahn. alicia ostriker. no, no, i'm going to stop now but this could fill PAGES. when someone makes noises about "no poetry these days about authentic experience" it really is a wierd blank spot (aporia for those who yearn for more critical terms in my writing) considering that one of the big focal points for feminist/women's writing has been making THEIR authentic experience heard. dodie, re magazines, i've had this conversation with you and henry and a few others before, but while i absolutely chide anyone with a magazine that is primarily men and almost no women writing, in practical experience, i've been horrified at how little writing by women i've gotten for various ventures. i've tried to recruit in women's web spaces, art centres, word of mouth... i thought it might just be techno-phenomenon (i work on ezine) but i've heard the same thing from the few editors of print media i know. how, dodie, are you finding the women writers? my sense is that there are tons of them out there and i know i see them in writing workshops and classes, but somewhere between the class, the initial exposure, and the phase of sending work out they seem to be getting lost... or lost to the sources i know about. i know i've felt silenced, in that "this is hopeless and i'm just going to go sit in my bathroom and pick at my eyebrows" kind of way when i pick up magazines, contest winner announcements, etc. and it is male after male, especially if, side by side, is somehting with blind submission policy that has half or more women showing up as winners. and an evening with a testosterone frenzied gang from conference/class/mla session, where the few women sit in corners, look uneasy, don't talk, and if they do get interrupted and ignored, will put me in that bathroom for hours. i'm undergoing something of the like right now in nursing school. about 1/3 to 2/5 class black women, the majority of remainder young white women. the white women will not go near the black women. oh, they'll be partners in labs occasionally. but they sit seperate from black women, don't sit at a lunch table when one of the black women has sat there, don't walk places with them. i've tended, myself, to make friends more with the black women because they are on average, older, and because the whole fucking thing makes me sick. but my objective self is also noticing that alot of the black women are haitian and creole speakers (i can speak french pretty badly but some myself), are older, have kids. and if i can let go of the racial dynamic for a minute, can see an age, post-high-school-and-childless vs. with children, living with parents vs. living with children and family, rich vs. poor, american vs. 1rst/2nd generation immigrants, snippy vs. gracious... ok, last losing objectivity, but anyway, can see lots of other factors, and wonder where, in all this, the seperation, the blank spaces, the (is it deliberate or just unconcsious habitual) looking away all coming from? which factor, or group of factors, or intersection of factors, or collusion or collision or collaboration, etc. of these factors produces the seperation. as with this, so with women and magazines... e ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:31:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <199709262308.TAA22926@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'll speak only to the least interesting point in this very interesting post. I knew Edwin Honig briefly but intensely for a month at the MacDowell Colony 19 years ago. He was, then as now, a poet with a small but respectable reputation, and he was then, as apparently now, very bitter about what he saw as his outsider status and rather defensively arrogant about the uniqueness of his talent and integrity. I liked him a lot, but I'm not sure he reciprocated: I think I may have been in his mind one of the barbarians at the gate. His work, as it happens, is interesting, and a strong sense of integrity is one of its virtues. It doesn't look to have been easy to produce. In some ways he reminds me of Bill Bronk. I cut him a lot of slack. At 07:08 PM 9/26/97 -0400, you wrote: >i don't know honig, henry, so can't speak to his opinions. but his words >echo those stirring mailer-esque words heard only too often... if he wants >poems about authentic experience, how can he say there is a lack with the >EXPLOSION of poetry by women starting in sixties and continuing to present >day? judy grahn. alicia ostriker. no, no, i'm going to stop now but this >could fill PAGES. when someone makes noises about "no poetry these days >about authentic experience" it really is a wierd blank spot (aporia for >those who yearn for more critical terms in my writing) considering that >one of the big focal points for feminist/women's writing has been making >THEIR authentic experience heard. > >dodie, re magazines, i've had this conversation with you and henry and a >few others before, but while i absolutely chide anyone with a magazine that >is primarily men and almost no women writing, in practical experience, i've >been horrified at how little writing by women i've gotten for various ventures. >i've tried to recruit in women's web spaces, art centres, word of mouth... >i thought it might just be techno-phenomenon (i work on ezine) but i've heard >the same thing from the few editors of print media i know. how, dodie, are >you finding the women writers? my sense is that there are tons of them out >there and i know i see them in writing workshops and classes, but somewhere >between the class, the initial exposure, and the phase of sending work out >they seem to be getting lost... or lost to the sources i know about. i know >i've felt silenced, in that "this is hopeless and i'm just going to go sit >in my bathroom and pick at my eyebrows" kind of way when i pick up magazines, >contest winner announcements, etc. and it is male after male, especially if, >side by side, is somehting with blind submission policy that has half or more >women showing up as winners. > >and an evening with a testosterone frenzied gang from conference/class/mla >session, where the few women sit in corners, look uneasy, don't talk, and >if they do get interrupted and ignored, will put me in that bathroom for >hours. > >i'm undergoing something of the like right now in nursing school. about 1/3 >to 2/5 class black women, the majority of remainder young white women. the >white women will not go near the black women. oh, they'll be partners in labs >occasionally. but they sit seperate from black women, don't sit at a lunch >table when one of the black women has sat there, don't walk places with them. >i've tended, myself, to make friends more with the black women because they are >on average, older, and because the whole fucking thing makes me sick. but my >objective self is also noticing that alot of the black women are haitian and >creole speakers (i can speak french pretty badly but some myself), are older, >have kids. and if i can let go of the racial dynamic for a minute, can see >an age, post-high-school-and-childless vs. with children, living with parents >vs. living with children and family, rich vs. poor, american vs. 1rst/2nd >generation immigrants, snippy vs. gracious... ok, last losing objectivity, >but anyway, can see lots of other factors, and wonder where, in all this, >the seperation, the blank spaces, the (is it deliberate or just unconcsious >habitual) looking away all coming from? which factor, or group of factors, >or intersection of factors, or collusion or collision or collaboration, etc. >of these factors produces the seperation. as with this, so with women >and magazines... >e > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:50:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: innovative poetry audiences MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been meaning to ask this for a while. This bickering over how many women and people of color an editor knows--we could add many more categories of 'otherness'--reminds me. What means are producers of poetry and poetic institutions using to develop and expand audiences? If reading makes writing, what are folks doing to expand the audience base. I am interested to know in what strategies producers are using. It seems to me a critical part of the politics. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:44:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <19970925230002.16508.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dale asks: >1) how do >you publish poetry you love and 2) still represent poets of diverse >backgrounds? Mostly I stay out of these discussions because I inevitably get flamed up by folks who insist on seeing me as some sort of Political Correctness Fascist and/or a demon of aesthetic relativism. But this discussion is so interesting I can't help jumping in. My notion of staying diverse might be different from most. Under the imprint of Burning Cities and Viet Nam Generation, Inc., I publish a series called "White Noise" which features white male poets of mostly working class origins and/or identification, who have a progressive political orientation (including our own Joe Amato--hi Joe!). In this particular case, I'm publishing WhiteHetMales on purpose, with full knowledge of exactly what I'm doing. I'm doing it because I think these particular guys have something really interesting to say, and I think they say it well. Most of the poetry books I publish are in this White Noise series (7 so far, with numbers 8-10 in the works), but I have also published books by women, Chicano, and African American poets, and in my journal, _Viet Nam Generation_, the mix is so various I can't break it down. Most of the poets I publish are politically progressive. I do read and enjoy some right wing poets, but I don't often publish them. Mostly I just don't feel like it. And the beauty of running my own press is that I don't have to publish what I don't feel like publishing. On the other hand, I don't publish any poetry I don't think is good. And "good" means whatever I like, for whatever reasons I like it. (Reasons, by the way, I'm happy to clearly define for anyone who asks about why I like a particular poem.) Anybody who tries to argue that "good" means something else, I believe, is just layering rationalization on faith. >Also, my friends who write the poetry I like, happen to be predominately >white and male. I prefer friends' work to strangers. But I don't limit >it in that way. Well, this does seem to be the crux of the issue. I think, on one level or another, most of us publish our friends, submit our poems to our friends, read at our friends' bookstores or colleges, and so on. I mean, this is a small world, divided into smaller cliques, and it's hard to escape. Me, I'd go nuts if most of my friends were white and male. I need a good mix or I'm miserable. So I work hard at putting myself in situations where I'm going to meet people who are not white and/or not male in order to feed my burning need for variety. And what I've found is that when I connect to new people--make new friends--the doors of new communities open up to me. My African American friends who are poets send me poetry by *their* friends, who are often African American. But--at least in my experience--all this diversity has to be based on *real* relationships, real friendships and collegial connections between people who genuinely like and respect and try to understand each other. My immediate assumption, as a white person, is that when I make a new contact with a person of color, the burden of proof is on *me* to demonstrate, over a period of time, that I do have a genuine liking and respect for the person and his/her work, and that I'm *not* simply "collecting" token poets or token friends to feed my own image. After a while my intentions become clear and that's a basis for building mutual trust and respect (a process which is neverending). Takes a lot of time and energy. But then, don't all friendships? As a politically radical feminist and an African Americanist, I find it sometimes harder to maintain my friendships with WhiteHetMales than with members of some other groups. But, because there are many things I greatly admire about my WhiteHetMale friends as poets and as human beings, I put in the effort. Of course, this isn't a one-sided project (what friendship is?), and I give my WhiteHetMale friends full credit for doing an awful lot of work to maintain their friendships with me. It's a hell of stretch for all parties concerned. My guess is that we do it because we're suckers for complexity, for stimulus, for contact. In regards to Henry Gould's comment about Edwin Honig pushing for readings or a series of readings by Vietnam vet poets, well, I've been doing those for years. The Sixties Conference hosts a coffeehouse where we feature Viet Nam veteran poets, and we've also had poets reading the work of Vietnamese writers in translation. Readers have included W.D. Ehrhart, Dale Ritterbusch, David Connolly, Alan Farrell, David Vancil, David Willson, R.S. Carlson, Kevin Bowen and Coleman. Martha Collins and Wayne Karlin have read works in translation from their anthologies. Like Honig, I do find this poetry "interesting and real," although I don't have Honig's objections to other sorts of more cerebral poetry, or simply poetry by folks who haven't "been there done that." At the same time, I'm pretty picky about the Viet vet poets I publish. I think that I've come across 50-60 good ones, which is a lot. But, on the other hand, I've read work submitted by maybe 500-600 Viet vet poet wannabes, which has convinced me that "being there" isn't any guarantee you can speak articulately or effectively about being there. As a (perhaps) interesting aside, I find the work of the *less* self-consciously "literary" Viet Vet poets more compelling than the work of the "famous" Viet vet poets like Weigl and Komunyakaa for reasons which have everything to do with my preference for what I think of as "plain" vs. "fancy" narrative style in the work of poets and writers portraying the effects of traumatic experiences. (I'm consistant this way, since I also prefer the hyperpop narrative style of Gus Hasford to the novelistic devices of Tim O'Brien.) It's a personal bias, and I acknowledge it straight out. Now, I'm used to (and even more importantly, the poets I publish are used to) having such poetry dismissed by folks who wave the banner of "aesthetics" as a measure of quality. I even publish some cowboy poets who are also--not coincidentally--Viet Nam veterans, and I'm always amazed at the stony refusal to acknowledge this still vital genre by the folks who inhabit university creative writing programs. What it all comes down to for me (and I was talking to Dan Featherstone about this--hi Dan!--last night), is that I don't give a damn about what any sort of self-appointed or actual "poetry establishment" thinks about either my press or the poets I publish. I publish what I like, because I like it and because I think it's good, in the sense that I defined "good" above. And people are gonna call me whatever they want, and they'll refer to my press however they want, or some of them will ignore me and hope I disappear. But the bottom line is that I've got books of poetry in print, and I'm proud of them, and their authors are proud of them, and people actually buy them and read them and get something out of them. Since no small press I know of makes enough money for either its authors or its owners (or officers, if it's a nonprofit) to be stimulated by the prospect of monetary gain, I figure that this is as good an attitude as any. So it doesn't bother me a bit if Dale publishes mostly white guys, and if Chain publishes mostly women. Even though poets do the writing, presses are always already expressions of their editors and owners. I expect no less. I *would* like to see more presses in the hands of women and people of color, but, then I'd like to see power distributed more evenly in just about every realm of culture and society, which accounts--no doubt--for my politics. What it comes down to for me (and a part of me wants to laugh uproariously and derisively as I say this) is love. For most of us this is an unpaid gig, and why would we do it if we didn't love it? I can't publish what I don't love. Now, sure, I'm willing to try to learn to love new things, but I don't think we've got a whole hell of a lot of control over the deepest levels of our attractions. We might be able to *explain* those attractions and we might even judge 'em as "constructive" or "destructive" or whatever, but it sure is hard as hell to change 'em. What I've found though, is that sometimes I meet new kinds of writing that feel like coming home, that give me the sensation of, "Oh, yeah, I've always loved this; I just hadn't run across it yet." So I seek diversity not out of a sense of duty, but out of a desire to find new things to love. "Love" is one of those words you're supposed to be embarrased to say in academic circles, but if I can't talk about poetry in terms of love (though, of course, not *only* in terms of love), I figure why talk about it at all? Kali Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 17:14:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Three Cheers! At 04:44 PM 9/26/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dale asks: > >>1) how do >>you publish poetry you love and 2) still represent poets of diverse >>backgrounds? > >Mostly I stay out of these discussions because I inevitably get >flamed up by folks who insist on seeing me as some sort of Political >Correctness Fascist and/or a demon of aesthetic relativism. But this >discussion is so interesting I can't help jumping in. > >My notion of staying diverse might be different from most. Under the >imprint of Burning Cities and Viet Nam Generation, Inc., I publish a series >called "White Noise" which features white male poets of mostly working >class origins and/or identification, who have a progressive political >orientation >(including our own Joe Amato--hi Joe!). In this particular case, I'm >publishing WhiteHetMales on purpose, with full knowledge of exactly what >I'm doing. I'm doing it because I think these particular guys have >something really interesting to say, and I think they say it well. Most of >the poetry books I publish are in this White Noise series (7 so far, with >numbers 8-10 in the works), but I have also published books by women, >Chicano, and African American poets, and in my journal, _Viet Nam >Generation_, the mix is so various I can't break it down. Most of the >poets I publish are politically progressive. > >I do read and enjoy some right wing poets, but I don't often publish them. >Mostly I just don't feel like it. And the beauty of running my own press >is that I don't have to publish what I don't feel like publishing. On the >other hand, I don't publish any poetry I don't think is good. And "good" >means whatever I like, for whatever reasons I like it. (Reasons, by the >way, I'm happy to clearly define for anyone who asks about why I like a >particular poem.) Anybody who tries to argue that "good" means something >else, I believe, is just layering rationalization on faith. > >>Also, my friends who write the poetry I like, happen to be predominately >>white and male. I prefer friends' work to strangers. But I don't limit >>it in that way. > >Well, this does seem to be the crux of the issue. I think, on one level or >another, most of us publish our friends, submit our poems to our friends, >read at our friends' bookstores or colleges, and so on. I mean, this is a >small world, divided into smaller cliques, and it's hard to escape. Me, >I'd go nuts if most of my friends were white and male. I need a good mix >or I'm miserable. >So I work hard at putting myself in situations where I'm going to meet people >who are not white and/or not male in order to feed my burning need for >variety. And what I've found is that when I connect to new people--make new >friends--the doors of new communities open up to me. My African American >friends who are poets send me poetry by *their* friends, who are often >African American. But--at least in my experience--all this diversity has >to be based on *real* relationships, real friendships and collegial >connections between people who genuinely like and respect and try to >understand each other. My immediate assumption, as a white person, is that >when I make a new contact with a person of color, the burden of proof is on >*me* to demonstrate, over a period of time, that I do have a genuine liking >and respect for the person and his/her work, and that I'm *not* simply >"collecting" token poets or token friends to feed my own image. After a >while my intentions become clear and that's a basis for building mutual >trust and respect (a process which is neverending). Takes a lot of time >and energy. But then, don't all friendships? > >As a politically radical feminist and an African Americanist, I find it >sometimes harder to maintain my friendships with WhiteHetMales than with >members of some other groups. But, because there are many things I greatly >admire about my WhiteHetMale friends as poets and as human beings, I put in >the effort. Of course, this isn't a one-sided project (what friendship >is?), and I give my WhiteHetMale friends full credit for doing an awful lot >of work to maintain their friendships with me. It's a hell of stretch for >all parties concerned. My guess is that we do it because we're suckers for >complexity, for stimulus, >for contact. > >In regards to Henry Gould's comment about Edwin Honig pushing for readings or a >series of readings by Vietnam vet poets, well, I've been doing those for >years. The Sixties Conference hosts a coffeehouse where we feature Viet >Nam veteran poets, and we've also had poets reading the work of Vietnamese >writers in translation. Readers have included W.D. Ehrhart, Dale >Ritterbusch, David >Connolly, Alan Farrell, David Vancil, David Willson, R.S. Carlson, Kevin >Bowen and Coleman. Martha Collins and Wayne Karlin have read works in >translation from their anthologies. Like Honig, I do find this poetry >"interesting and real," although I don't have Honig's objections to other >sorts of more cerebral poetry, or simply poetry by folks who haven't "been >there done that." At the same time, I'm pretty picky about the Viet vet >poets I publish. I think that I've come across 50-60 good ones, which is a >lot. But, on the other hand, I've read work submitted by maybe 500-600 >Viet vet poet wannabes, which has convinced me that "being there" isn't any >guarantee you can speak articulately or effectively about being there. As >a (perhaps) interesting aside, I find the work of the *less* >self-consciously "literary" Viet Vet poets more compelling than the work of >the "famous" Viet vet poets like Weigl and Komunyakaa for reasons which >have everything to do with my preference for what I think of as "plain" vs. >"fancy" narrative style in the work of poets and writers portraying the >effects of traumatic experiences. (I'm consistant this way, since I also >prefer the hyperpop narrative style of Gus Hasford to the novelistic >devices >of Tim O'Brien.) It's a personal bias, and I acknowledge it straight out. > >Now, I'm used to (and even more importantly, the poets I publish are used >to) having such poetry dismissed by folks who wave the banner of >"aesthetics" >as a measure of quality. I even publish some cowboy poets who are >also--not coincidentally--Viet Nam veterans, and I'm always amazed at the >stony refusal to acknowledge this still vital genre by the folks who >inhabit university creative writing programs. > >What it all comes down to for me (and I was talking to Dan Featherstone >about this--hi Dan!--last night), is that I don't give a damn about what >any sort of self-appointed or actual "poetry establishment" thinks about >either my press or the poets I publish. I publish what I like, because I >like it and because I think it's good, in the sense that I defined "good" >above. And people are gonna call me whatever they want, and they'll refer >to my press however they want, or some of them will ignore me and hope I >disappear. But the bottom line is that I've got books of poetry in print, >and I'm proud of them, and their authors are proud of them, and people >actually buy them and read them and get something out of them. Since no >small press I know of makes enough money for either its authors or its >owners (or officers, if it's a nonprofit) to be stimulated by the prospect >of monetary gain, I figure that this is as good an attitude as any. So it >doesn't bother me a bit if Dale publishes mostly white guys, and if Chain >publishes mostly women. Even though poets do the writing, presses are >always already expressions of their editors and owners. I expect no less. > >I *would* like to see more presses in the hands of women and people of >color, but, then I'd like to see power distributed more evenly in just >about every realm of culture and society, which accounts--no doubt--for my >politics. > >What it comes down to for me (and a part of me wants to laugh uproariously >and derisively as I say this) is love. For most of us this is an unpaid >gig, and why would we do it if we didn't love it? I can't publish what I >don't love. Now, sure, I'm willing to try to learn to love new things, but >I don't think we've got a whole hell of a lot of control over the deepest >levels of our attractions. We might be able to *explain* those attractions >and we might even judge 'em as "constructive" or "destructive" or whatever, >but it sure is hard as hell to change 'em. What I've found though, is that >sometimes I meet new kinds of writing that feel like coming home, that give >me the sensation of, "Oh, yeah, I've always loved this; I just hadn't run >across it yet." So I seek diversity not out of a sense of duty, but out of >a desire to find new things to love. "Love" is one of those words you're >supposed to be embarrased to say in academic circles, but if I can't talk >about poetry in terms of love (though, of course, not *only* in terms of >love), I figure why talk about it at all? > >Kali > > >Kali Tal new WORD order >PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com >520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" > >Sixties Project kali@kalital.com >http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 14:21:20 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: dilemmas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dale Smith wrote: > The dilemma, as I see it, is twofold: 1) how do > you publish poetry you love and 2) still represent poets of diverse > backgrounds? Why does this have to be a dilemma? But when it comes down to it, I don't have a problem with friend journals (I think this is a good way to interact with the world; I like to see how people that are friends and poets are talking to each other). When you put the call on poetics list I had the oh this looks interesting I think I'll send a check reaction. I don't think you are accusing me of this but just want to make this clear. I'm trying to take up your invitation to talk about editing issues because these kinds of things dominate my life. I'm not complaining about what you are doing. And like you I want to make decisions without race/gender concerns and I think I do in Chain. We (I co-edit it with Jena Osman) have never published anyone because they fit some category (and you are wrong to think the cultural marketplace, whatever form this might take, cares; it might be a more interesting world if they did; but as far as I can tell the cultural marketplace cares only about "aesthetics"--look at who or what gets NEAs). But unlike you, I have a problem with the word aesthetics b/c it means to me things that are too neat. (Granted, when I think of this word I think of journals that use this criteria to smooth over and glaze things. I don't think I'm thinking of what you mean judging by the list of people you had in the journal. Maybe you could clarify your aesthetics and maybe I could learn to love the word.) But we did start Chain in order to explore aesthetics or how to avoid aesthetics. We felt there were a lot of journals that had things too neat and we wanted things messy. (too messy?) So we made a point, and still do, to get rid of the "is this an aesthetically pleasing poem" question and to ask the "does this poem tell us something we might not already know or show us something a little sideways" or some question like that. What it makes is a messy journal. One with friends and enemies and with work that we may or may not like. (Although I tend to like it but I tend to like things.) I think wanting people to think I'm a nice guy has little to do with it. If it did I would probably publish more friends and stop returning their work when it doesn't fit the topic. I want all sorts of journals. I want them all funded and available. I want Chain and I want Yale Younger Poets to have this very badly. It seems especially important to have both if we tend to publish work by women (and men also?) you don't like. Maybe when something comes into YYP that you don't like you could send it over to us. Who are you talking about when talk about corporate/academic funding? The only thing I can think of are those journals that graduate programs start to promote the graduate program. I call these the state journals--the Ohio Quarterly, the Hawaii Review, the Iowa Review, etc. (Chain was an attempt to take advantage of this tradition of funding journals for graduate students; it worked for a while). My poetics has been influenced by NY School, Black Mountain, _and_ Stein (Pound a little less). That is only the beginning. Does that matter? I probably wouldn't say that about Chain's aesthetics. I couldn't figure that out. There are many writers of color writing experimental poetry. There are many editors also. It doesn't take a search to realize this. Although unfortunately, it does take a library or some other depository with a decent poetry collection. With respect, Juliana ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 20:59:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Sacred Cows In-Reply-To: <19970926211325.9064.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Re: Stein. That's what really seems to be upsetting to certain people >on the list. Well, I dismiss her work, not because she is a woman, but >because I find it unbearable to read. So many posts have been >profoundly condescending and I appreciate your efforts to set me >straight, so to say. But Stein, who is adored by many, including Phil >Whalen and Alice Notely, both of whom I deeply admire, provides a kind >of model for a poetics that I find misleading, presumptive, and >ultimately useless because she takes you nowhere. You gain nothing by >reading her. > i take it these remarks are directed at me. it was not my intention to be condescending. but i must say, the sentence "you gain nothing by reading her" could easily be rendered more honestly as "*I* gain nothing by reading her." that would vitiate the moral bombast i find irksome. esp when coupled with the implication that it's a real struggle to find women/poets of color who are any good. your take on stein isn't the "really" upsetting thing for me; it's simply the easiest for me to respond to. i am not unsympathetic to the difficulty of finding material outside of one's networks; the xcp conference will be a reflection of that, and i hope i learn to expand my network as a result. but the tone in which this difficulty is expressed (as if it were an objective truth that "there are so few good ones out there" rather than "I'm not connected with those circles") is what i find problematic. as for condescension, could it be that i'm just not being as warm and fuzzy as usual since you've just insulted my (apparent) gender, my politics, my aesthetics, and my self? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 17:27:00 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: name, paradox, &c. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Or maybe begin questioning WHY you don't like it... Respectfully, Dan > >>down a range of perspectives, hellyeah. publish stuff you don't like for >>the sake of being "representative," noway. >> >>publish stuff you like -- and keep looking for new stuff to like. >> >> >>cheers, >>tom >> >> > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 26 Sep 1997 23:58:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Bromige Subject: "useful" in context of paradox thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Both your posts, William Burmeister and Mark Weiss, were of interest, I found, & I doubt that you are far apart in your thinking on the matter...its just that "useful" has a big range. What William has to say re the objectification of the poet, the commodification of the poet I should say, so thoroughly until the poetry becomes as vestigial as an appendix, is sadly accurate to the times. I liked too the analogy Mark used, about all hummingbirds at one time looking the same to him, before his eye was trained. Thanks to both, & all who have graced this thread. Makes me realize anew how grateful I am for this List. ++++++++++ And also because one can get such various info so fast : thanks to those who posted the e-ddresses I was looking for ; I now have them both. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 08:00:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: The Paradox and the Name of its Disco Tents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jordan suggests several mags that he believes might serve as models... so then, i'd ask dale if he agrees? (cause ov course if he does, then why start another mag that duplicates existing?) id guess, based on his comments, he would disagree, and precisely on th point that jordan brings up--tho some branches in LangPo share lineage w/ th NY/Pound tradition, dale seems to be climbing a different trunk of the family tree. What exactly are the distinguishments you want to make, dale--the aesthetics that you refer to as the basis for your editorial judgement? i'm not clear, only that they are Not the aesthetics of Chain, or Stein--what Are they? and the followup question to the list wd be, could you suggest names & addresses of writers w/in that aesthetic who might widen/diversify dale's circle of friends... lbd >The World. Hanging Loose. Misc. Proj. No Trees.. Also, I'd say the Language >school is a metamorphosis of NY/Pound so I'd include exactly the magazines >Dale is distancing himself from in the vapor trail of that nexus. As >always, the "real critique" is elsewhere. - J > >>request to the list: wondering if anybody might point to >>examples of other mags that might serve as models for dale&co's >>efforts: ie, NYschool/Naropa/Pound nexus aesthetics, w/ a >>wider demographic contributor base? >> >>& if such doesnt come to mind, praps the real critique being >>made is of that aesthetic, rather than this particular mag? >> >>asever >>luigi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 07:55:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *love* that post, kali!... i would add only that the love of justice has something to do with all of this (certainly nothing one-to-one about it, no hard & fast lines to be drawn when it comes to love)... it seems odd, i know, even moralistic or dogmatic to say so... but i would say that there is a measure of responsibility entailed in going public, & that it's up to each of us to reflect on same... well anyway, i too have learned a lot thus far from this thread, & have to observe that it seems to have invigorated this list... so thanx to *all* for participating in this exchange... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:29:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: somebody wanna help this poor soul out? From: MX%"SHARP-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU" 27-SEP-1997 06:32:59.74 To: MX%"SHARP-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU" CC: Subj: Small Press Movement / Private Publishers X-Mailer: T-Online eMail 2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Sender: 042517516-0001@t-online.de (Adam An-Zathair-Siorai) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 05:32:33 -0500 Reply-To: "SHARP-L Society for the History of Authorship, Reading & Publishing" From: An-tAthair-Siorai Press Gp Subject: Small Press Movement / Private Publishers To: SHARP-L@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU Dear SHARPists, I am interested in finding any available information, private or public, opinion or fact, on the state of the Small Press Movement and private publishers in general around the globe. I do not wish to include the vanity presses in my query. Is the Small Press Movement still a force to be reckoned with when it comes to discovering new talents, especially in the field of poetry? Has the Small Press Movement expanded with the introduction of the PC and DTP, and is DTP taking over from hand printing. How does the Small Press Movement cope with advertising their wares and with distribution without incurring greater overheads? Are there any magazines, electronic / Internet or hard copy, devoted exclusively to Small Press publishers? I would be particularly interested in hearing from any SHARP members with personal knowledge, or their own presses, or who can pass on to me contact names and addresses / e-mail that I may follow up. Adam An-tAthair-Siorai An-tAthair-Siorai Press Group litterateur@t-online.de Kirch Strasse 17, D-27318 Hoya, Germany ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 10:06:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:31:24 -0700 from On Fri, 26 Sep 1997 16:31:24 -0700 mark weiss said: >I'll speak only to the least interesting point in this very interesting >post. I knew Edwin Honig briefly but intensely for a month at the MacDowell >Colony 19 years ago. He was, then as now, a poet with a small but >respectable reputation, and he was then, as apparently now, very bitter >about what he saw as his outsider status and rather defensively arrogant >about the uniqueness of his talent and integrity. I liked him a lot, but >I'm not sure he reciprocated: I think I may have been in his mind one of >the barbarians at the gate. His work, as it happens, is interesting, and a >strong sense of integrity is one of its virtues. It doesn't look to have >been easy to produce. In some ways he reminds me of Bill Bronk. I cut him a >lot of slack. I'd like to respond briefly to several posts. Right on Kali & Juliana, yes - though I probably sound often like Mr. Smooth-it-over aesthetics on this list, I AGREE with your healthy editorial perspective(s), & in lil nedge way have often taken poems that are naive & rough from the persp. the academic style-is-power school (in its many variants) - Elliza, everything you say about the chauvinist attitude re: "real experience" is true & historically documentable but I don't understand why you insist on putting words in Honig's mouth - he never said "there is no poetry of authentic experience" - he just said there is a strong stream right now - maybe an ascendant stream (vid. Jorie Graham, Lang Po, other currents) supported by much critical hoogabooga, which is so intent on analyzing the non-consistency or problematic nature of self & experience, that history as a shared reality or world phenomenon - the self as participant in a cataclysmic century or in mass movements of peoples & nations - has been downplayed - & that the poetry of vets now is a link with certain streams of political poetry in the 30s with which he identifies in a strong emotional way (he said vets - not MEN or WOMEN vets). So is it possible to discuss this issue without necessarily framing it in the context of patriarchy & chauvinist interpretations of reality? Maybe not. I'm just asking. Mark, Honig's collected poems are forthcoming online at Wendy Battin's CAPA, hopefully in the next couple months. Yes he is an irascible sly literary fox with a hell of a sharp tongue & one-upmanship instincts bred on Brooklyn streets in 20s & 30s - proud, proud - maybe blinkered in his "aesthetics" - but he just wants people to read some of his heavy great poems... I see him as a specifically human force vs. present academic/aesthetic/commercial bureaucracies (not that I'm against the academy, or art, or commerce! Heck no! Just ask Jack Spandrift!) - Henry Gould >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:03:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Comments: To: Maria Damon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "I wonder. . ." I third that emotion. Yet, in attempt to avoid undue commotion, let's remember we are suggesting that a person's aesthetic should hold up against criticism from within as well as without, and we are not making indictments. Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I > > i second that emotion; and i also, personally, wince at playing stein off > against pound in a way that casts stein as the narcissist, the errant one, > the one with the "problem." to my mind, this is a gendered and politicized > determination as much as it is an aesthetic one --i.e. women are often > accused of narcissism, self-indulgence, etc and that judgment is used to > keep them from access to the renown and respect enjoyed by their male > peers. dale, i wonder if it'd be fair to say that your aesthetic sense may > itself be the product of conditioning in an unjust society? > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:31:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: A Note on Prejudice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have no direct response to the issues raised by Dale Smith's candid embodiment of his prejudices, and the List's various and, for the most part, generous response to it, but a few days before the controversy broke surface here (hot on the heals of Slider affair) I wrote a small note to no one in particular on some similar themes. It's somewhat long for e-mail, but I'll risk it here on a quiet Saturday afternoon.... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Notes to Poetry 5 How are prejudices--one might equally say tastes--built up in us during the endless apprenticeship to textuality? How does it happen that not only certain texts or authors but indeed whole stances, entire ways of proposing the scale and texture and objective of a writing practice, come to be placed under a subjective taboo: boring, aggravating, sickening; worst of all, neutral or blank. There is no element of a poem to which value, however carefully checked by description, does not cling. The way this poem looks on the page (another prose block, or some mechanically-reproduced stanza form: forty pages of tercets!), the way this one attacks the question of sound (clumsy, or heavy-handed, or lacking, or...: the objections are endless on this front), the way this one asks me to suppose the world is something dramatically other, and usually drastically worse, than what I think it is (a world of only suburban backyards or rural solitudes or ineradicable bitterness and domination). Inexhaustible ways, then, to be opinionated about the poem without yet having reached, let alone read, it. And this makes for a dilemma not only for the addicts of openness (pluralists), not only for the tough customers of program and principal (dogmatists), but for anyone who reads not as a duty or a chore (the academics) but as a risk. Catherine Walsh's *Pitch* maintains a porous border relative to its materials and manifests a lively sense of variability in both its open field and stanzaic modes of composition. In the absence of one manifestly "dominant" formal element, it seems plausible to relate the field of the page to the field of consciousness, the play of print to that of percepts. It sounds terrific, and yet it is just the sort of book that of late I've found it inordinately difficult to value. My restlessness takes the form of a craving for the determinate; less the "concrete" (it's not a deficit of the referent, such as a jolt of "imagism" or "objectivism" might remedy, that my attention suffers under) than the...the only word that comes to mind is the _tensed_. Indeed, with a little reflection I see that the poetics of diffusion has always presented an obstacle to me and that a whole constellation of preferences has arranged itself around this kernel of prejudice: O'Hara over Ashbery, Armantrout over Berssenbrugge, Williams over Stevens, Lorenz Hart over Sonic Youth, and so forth. What thou loveth well is one thing--source of orientation, courage, and comfort. But it is from the unlit regions, where the sun of prejudice hasn't already illuminated every detail, that mind-changing texts are most likely to come. Over time, and with the benefit of hearing Walsh read aloud from both her own and from Samuel Beckett's texts, the specificity of the work has come clearer to me, somewhat to my embarassment but much more to my relief (surely the affective component, as much as the cognitive one, plays a role in "changing one's mind": what haven't we at one time or another said in order to mask or avoid the vulnerability of not thinking "x" anymore but lacking the emotional wherewithal demanded in a given context to say so?). In her reading, I heard what I've never heard before at a reading: a person who could successfully bring into a public space that incredibly important, but absolutely fragile--seemingly untransportable--tonal landscape of intimate speech: the whisper, the interrogative tone used only with people utterly familiar and deeply loved, the falling tone in the broken-off utterance, the slight startle back into speech after a silent spell in another's presence, the undertones of talking to oneself, the quizzical texture of the many messages we address to inanimate things and non-verbal beings, .... What I learned at the reading was that I had failed to understand precisely the pitch of Walsh's *Pitch*. It may be that as an American I at first heard only the sense of pitch as come-on, the ad-pitch (the carnivalesque cover of the book perhaps prompting me also in that direction). But nothing could be further from the canned speech of chattering capitalism than her work. When Walsh read from Beckett's *Texts for Nothing* I suddenly heard the adjectival form, as in "pitch" black, and worked my way back to the tar-dark substance whose place in Beckett's topography is all the more secure for rhyming with the locus of so much of the (in)action in his work--the "ditch." And when I heard her own work, the musical and linguistic senses of the word came to the fore. In utterances, tone or pitch does two things especially well: it marks out new information (sorting rhemes from themes) and it articulates, through any number of lexical (exclamations) and non-lexical (interjections) means, the speaker's relationship to the message. Irony is largely a matter of tone, as its opposite, earnestness. In specifically poetic terms, intonation has frequently been advanced as free verse's answer to meter: the mechanism that moved Pound, to take only the famous instance, off the metronome and onto the musical phrase. While Walsh's texts present quite various forms to the eye--conventional stanza, calligram, prose-block, Eigner-like lyric, field composition--what they tend to present to the ear is a certain tone, or pitch, that enters into a dialectic with its transcription. to whom was it owing who could say who could care my day speak English bad not true not a lot when people speak to each other in the real world bad not true not a lot one to one outside be honest are your prepared good very true a lot to whom who could say was it owing speak English keep a record and interrupt for God's sake interrupt did I write that before as or after (from "Pitch: Part Two" 27) Hannah Weiner, news of whose sad loss came not long after I heard Walsh read, would have sought graphic means to differentiate the "voices" here, but Walsh provides her reader with only minimal cueing. In the tightly cycling stanzas of an untitled lyric (*Pitch* 21) possessing the echoing strains of Zukofsky's signature valentines--Walsh uses the vocative interjection most associated with the poetic tradition:"o glad snow / morning of light / less wish / you were here // here to sing / holiday o / glad snow / light less / morning wish / you were here...." One hears in these lines the "circadian / rhythm" (22) that Walsh's writing moves in, mimics, and--quietly--masters. [18-19 September 1997] =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= *Pitch* was published by Pig Press in Durham in 1994. Catherine Walsh read from this and other works on 3 September 1997 as part of a celebration of Irish poetry at Brown University that also included Billy Mills, Randolph Healy, and Maurice Scully. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 10:56:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Juliana Spahr Subject: the pink and the blue Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I got an error message. I apologize if this arrives 2x. ----- I read this list blind (in digest form but I'm also in a time zone that gets the digest at 6 pm so I tend to read everything at least a day maybe two behind). So I worr y I'm out of step. Yesterday's discussion was strange. And I feel yucky. But can I just make one thing clear--excepting the first issue, Chain publishes about 50/50 in terms of the pink and the blue of it. I can't decide if it is good that people think it publishes more women or if it is just another example of how weird sexu al politics are becoming. Dale's aesthetic complaints I understand. I hear them all the time here in natur e poetry central. I'm cool by them (even if they feel a little hostile; have I grown too sensitive here in the land of aloha?). Everything isn't for everyone and it is a better world for it. But I don't understand the confrontation of the law of the father. Whose father? And how don't we here at the chain/Stein power nexus like him? Is there some specific moment that you are talking about Dale? I hope I've stayed away from this rhetoric. I really like mine who just turned 82 and is still playing golf daily. Dale is right--Chain is too long. I wish Chain was dangerous. I worry more about irrelevant. Legless, Juliana ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:21:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: A Note on Prejudice In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 4:31 PM -0400 9/27/97, Steve Evans wrote: >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >Notes to Poetry 5 > >How are prejudices--one might equally say tastes--built up in us during the >endless apprenticeship to textuality? How does it happen that not only >certain texts or authors but indeed whole stances, entire ways of proposing >the scale and texture and objective of a writing practice, come to be >placed under a subjective taboo: boring, aggravating, sickening; worst of >all, neutral or blank. There is no element of a poem to which value, >however carefully checked by description, does not cling. The way this >poem looks on the page (another prose block, or some >mechanically-reproduced stanza form: forty pages of tercets!), the way this >one attacks the question of sound (clumsy, or heavy-handed, or lacking, >or...: the objections are endless on this front), the way this one asks me >to suppose the world is something dramatically other, and usually >drastically worse, than what I think it is (a world of only suburban >backyards or rural solitudes or ineradicable bitterness and domination). >Inexhaustible ways, then, to be opinionated about the poem without yet >having reached, let alone read, it. And this makes for a dilemma not only >for the addicts of openness (pluralists), not only for the tough customers >of program and principal (dogmatists), but for anyone who reads not as a >duty or a chore (the academics) but as a risk. > very interesting stuff steve. i find that my aesthetic sense has changed since joining POETIX. i have mixed feelings about that; i feel that i've gained some "sophistication" maybe but may have lost some ability to hear the emotional subtexts that make "cliches" interesting, endearing, powerful, meaningful-in-context, etc. some ability to listen empathetically has perhaps ceded to my search for aesthetic thrills...md ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 14:47:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: the pink and the blue In-Reply-To: <342E9A3D.2169@lava.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >But can I just make one thing clear--excepting the first issue, >Chain publishes about 50/50 in terms of the pink and the blue of >it. I can't decide if it is good that people think it publishes more >women or if it is just another example of how weird sexual politics >are becoming. I apologize if I made it sound like I "knew" Chain published more women. My point was only that it didn't bother me if different journals presented different groups of poets (though I might choose to read one journal over another based on their publishing decisions) since that seemed to me one of the preconditions of publishing--that we have biases and agendas. Didn't have Chain on hand, wasn't counting, was wrong to accept the description as fact. But, yeah, sexual politics are really weird. Whenever I'm in a group in which half of the people talking are female, the general sense of many of the male participants and at least some of the female participants seems to be that women *dominate* the group. Maybe that's what's happening with the reception of Chain. Kali Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 16:44:29 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Re: picking up sides (name-paradox thread) Content-Type: text/plain Thank you David Bromige for your thoughtful and vulnerable response. In this discussion-- as everywhere-- we find ourselves named various names-- a physiologist-like look at this would point to the way our brains try to categorize objects and beings in an effort to make meaning. This is helpful when it comes to, say, mushrooms-- this one is yummy sauted with garlic, this one will attack my liver if I eat it, this one will make me laugh profoundly at the word "liver", and etc. This is very tricky of course in social applications and all sorts of horrible or frustrating things can happen. It happens when we talk about poetry too. I have work published in several issues of both *Mike and Dale's Younger Poets* and *Chain*. My work in *Chain* is "distant cold and removed from emotional possiblilities" (Dale) and I am part of the gang of SWM in M/D's in spite of myself? Categories serve to narrow and simplify when -- outside of mushroom-like instances -- things stubbornly refuse categorizing. (Which was definately bothering me the whole while I wrote towards the "What is white" thread, with Mr. Timmons and others awhile back-- that I was insisting on delimiting a category because, I think, I experience the catorizations in a very real way). So what do we do? I am glad indeed that we can dialoge around this and that folks have been so willing to share their thoughts and feelings. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 27 Sep 1997 21:53:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jen Sondheim Subject: Novel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am working on a novel about writing and the poetics of writing, about email, about lag, and the collapse of the poetic. It may never see the light of day, back of night, but it is relevant in the scattered form I catastrophize in, below. For your pleasure or scattered delete ... _______________________________________________________________________ Notes for a Novel: Which I do work on: "Her nights, his days. Her days, his nights." And that he comes to a foreign city and does not understand the language. And that the airport is brown. He's got a sheet of paper, he can't de- cipher. What is it, where is she. He shows it, there's a taxi, a sheroot, he gets in, it's already old, nervous. He goes somewhere, recognizes nothing. Characters in other scripts, cuneiforms for all he knows. Llamas cross his path. But the city's vacant, her place is vacant. Locked or unlocked - in this novel, it won't make a difference. He goes in, the door opens. There's nothing, no clues. It's clean, no dust, breakins. He doesn't know. This is a man, Travis maybe, who doesn't know a thing. He can't find her friends because everyone shrugs. He meets people who speak his language, easy now. They know her. They haven't 'seen her around.' She's the kind of person one sees around. She's private. But there are no rumors, nothing. She works in medicine. Well, she hasn't been at the clinic. Nothing is missing. You can see where this is going, of course. Doors close behind him, before he reaches the knob. The keys are like Berlin keys, they go through the hole, out the other side. That's important, there are windows through rooms and no one is ever looking. Now something has to happen for the novel to be a novel, what then? Per- haps a clue, but there are always clues, even clues in the beginning of things, the glance of a dark-haired woman at the airport, a slip of cel- lophane on the floor of her flat. Clues are things that gather meaning, reverse time, reconstitute events. But things are cluttered here; the sook is filled with blood where the animals are slaughtered, nomads come in from the countryside, shrines are staffed by garage gong bands. The Genkai Park inexplicably closes down; there are guards, something's hap- pened. No clues then, but this happening. What could be on the run. Later, two people are captured, he doesn't understand. There's a celebration in the city involving a wheeled boat which capsizes against chains of humans carrying placards of waves. People are really injured and the clinic's on hand. He finds food, stays in her place. He's ill-at-ease, a woman comes wear- ing a veil and he pays the rent, holding up the currency of his country. He's surprised how little everything costs. He should feel as if he were now a part of her life, the woman who was going to meet him, but he does- n't. He might wear a bracelet or necklace one day. He wears her jumpers, goes out aimlessly. He thinks, it's all come to a halt here. He finds himself listening to himself finding himself, but he's not lost. Just that there is this constant wonder at the world. He's more in love with her than ever before. One day, he goes to a screening of silent films, Melies. Women are disappearing all over the place. He'll make a film about a magician, a woman who brings men back to life. The woman trance-trains, has visions. Then she sets up mechanisms, everyone knows all of this and she's quite successful. She dies. Her extras are out of work, lifeless. They form a secret circle. They keep her corpse, have visions, try to raise the dead. They have visions, but they don't trance- train, in fact they do nothing at all. She comes back to life. There's a knock at the door of the flat. He's been there for months, un- recognizable. His nights, her days. His days, her nights. Whammo-kazowie, she's at the door. It would be presumption to ask. She talks about vis- ions, what she knows. Beneath the flat, there are missile silos. Next door, enigma code writers are hard at work. Across the way, the buildings are part of the largest ship ever constructed, you can see the alley- gangway down to the sea. The ship begins to move, everything shakes for a minute. The ship stops again, earthquake he says, no she replies. She's learned everything, signs and symbols. She can't read the cuneiform either, but insists it isn't important. What comes between the letters, she confides, that's it more or less. What comes between the letters, he realizes, is his own alphabet. Everything shudders, they take the Shin- kansen back to the sheroot stand near the roman ruins. The drivers are different and perhaps she departs. But the novel won't go this way. It will be populated with expatriates, colorful characters named Abdul, Charisma, and Jennifer. They'll drink a lot and expostulate. There will be all sorts of other horizons strat- egically across going-native. Sarongs and turbans, veils for the women, who would and wouldn't. There are fires on the other side of the city - they never come nearer. Guerillas, one opines. They listen to the short- wave, marry local, leave one by one. They fan out across the city. No, they don't, nothing like that happens. There are clues to the woman's disappearance. The airport appears to be a mechanism of some sort, the runways laid out in shamanic configuration, easy hiragana squared off for the takeoff and approach. The stewards knew he was arriving. The pilots watch him, uneasily, warily, he can't help noticing. Whatever is afoot takes him by surprise. Nausea, fear. And then, the rest of the novel. Things happen, everything's written in a wonderful realism carrying the reader to and fro among strange and mar- velous events. The reader's excited, always thinking about what will happen next. The characters are strongly drawn. The plot thickens and thins. Local color! Naturalism! An ending no one will ever forget! __________________________________________________________________________ Fragmeant Travis wrote to her. The time and return was .465 seconds on average, not bad when Fukuoka had been considered the center of the world in the four- teenth century, his own hometown unknown, fallow, untended. He was aware of the gaping maw of the sun, violent lunacy of the swinging moon which rarely showed its face - from its night, the radiance of her day showed forth. Mesmeric, he adapted himself to her schedule, his sun-up suppers with his friends were the occasion of back-channel conversations about sanity and the diameter of the earth. He joked he was the only one aware of circumference, of what a sphere was and meant - that he was the only one earth-bound, everyone else walking with stitched eyes and habits formed from childhood. He knew the sphere of stars and its awkwardness, how it shuddered above and below the equator, the rings of luminescent star-clouds and their satellites, give and take of unknown constellations. But it was his doubling that fascinated him, breakfast as dusk rose, not dawn, sleeping at odd hours reflecting gaps and silences, and his Monday night class that began oddly enough on Tuesday morning at seven - he re- mained surprised that the students were alert, keen on the speed of the Net, which should have been accountably slow and clumsy. His clocks gained a minute, lost a minute. He tried to meet himself half- way, like a friend. His nights were bright with untoward clarity, unthun- dered days, dark, uncanny, silent. Someone fixed the stars, he thought, they were never when they were supposed to be. She wrote him about the llamas. __________________________________________________________________________ Llamas The llama glistened, black carapace covered within insistent tortoise plates gleaming in the brown air of noon. It didn't move. Sirens in the distance constantly changing, warding off violent cars close to veering out of control. The head turned. Smoke from the nostrils, soot-nose beneath glowering eyes, body tensed with radiant energy. Shimmered waves of heat rose from the back, the breath, the brow. She noted this in her brown notebook, ruled with blue lines. She wrote him about the llamas near the Shikuneem, vicinity of Kasuga-Shi. They were llamas, Luria, she was a tracker with a blue felt hat, sorobon and note- book, penning ebb and flow, turbulent streams of animals burrowing into the world. They were moving in from the arroyos south-west of the city, the burning-plains traveled only by the Shinkansen. It was said that bones sparkled as the trains rushed by, straight unbuckled rails held up to the sanded grounds too hot for human touch. Travis remembered her uneasy witnessing, now the thing before him, as if produced by the cuneiform inscriptions everywhere in his vicinity. It was a one world, transitive, her llama text taking root, hair, and bone; she was nowhere to be found. Had she left him these animals, created by pure description? Was her disappearance contained in the eye of the beast, the vestiges of retinal memory destroyed by the fire next time? For a second he felt the creature recognized him, but that second passed, replaced by the uncertain knowledge that he was losing her trail as the purely exotic began its uneasy hold. Did she watch from the grey-pink building tiled against the sky? Did she lay harbor-dead, trolled by fish and crustacean, memory lost and tangled in kelp, seed-pods of aquatic plants adapting to stratified pollutions dragged from shore to sea-bottom and back again? Travis found his language tangled as well, the product of uncertainty, loneliness, and an ignorance so pure he had no name for it. __________________________________________________________________________ Parting the Thirty-Fourth Clara reached over for her box of cigarettes; if Avi didn't leave soon, all hell would break loose. He'd already fallen off the futon three times in the night, what would you expect from a gaijin who faded in and out of the desert weekly. The Desert Weekly, lead story: Gaijin loses grip on wadi edge, plunges two meters to gravel pitstop, slight remains of moisture lapped by desert frogs. Pictures, page 2. When he left, she turned on the radio, cd player, computer, called the airport, Fukuoka International. The name for city was 'ir,' Fukuoka-Ir carved in cuneiform on the corner lintels everywhere. They never let you forget. Flight 75, San Francisco, Oregon, Nepal, Catalina Island, Oman, Fukuoka-Ir in that order. It was on time and she imagined the plane poised perfectly in a planetary ring, waiting for the moment to descend. She dressed, left the bet-ie, headed down the street. The llamas were waiting as she stepped into the troika. She headed out on Number One Highway, south, left on Shogun. She hadn't worn her hat, see, for quite some time now. They stopped by the marshes, approximately five kilometers from the terminal. She watched the plane make perfect descent, dialed Robert immediately, continued on her way. When Robert answered the phone, Jane was in the other room. They spoke in whispers, aha. She told him all about the recent demographics, head- counts. Later he'd say she was nervous, preoccupied. He was a specialist in cartoucherie, useful where the only secure mode of communication was still clay-based. Lady Sarashina had written Were it not for river rock and pine This clay would not have impressed My name, my love, your _hon_ or book, mnemonics of his mind, to whom she had written, borrowing from Chinese Ch'in-fu, the impress of the reed pen, striations of thought as the seven strings, seventeen vibratos, sounded, then faded into ma. Clay into thought, material into the silence of the word, all this heaven. Clara was circumscribed by Robert's interest in her demographics, by the movements of llamas across the burning plains, by the distance of the troika (found by the side of the road) from the airport. Her disappearance dissolved into the gaze of Travis, waiting for her, waiting and waiting - a gaze transformed into a glance, then the look-see of astonishment as he began to understand she might never meet him again. Would he remember her voice, enumerating herds, packs, gaggles, schools, flocks, enervated groupings of the awkward black mammals, their armor-plating clacking in the heat of the day? Every one of these people were breathing, in and out. Clara turned over lazily, suddenly realizing what had happened. She woke with a start in utter darkness. The worst had happened. "Travis," she said, uncertainly, "Travis." 'Yes,' he replied, as a hand slid along her arm, her face, her hair. "I'm here, darling, I'm here." ___________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:11:51 +0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weldon Subject: Thank you, Kali Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been living on a bank of the Mekong River for 35 years and I would like to thank you, Kali, for your editorial perspective and commitment. I am new to the internet and its attendant communities; I had not seen the websites indicated in your recent communication. I read the poetry samplings in the White Noise series in tears. I spent 11 years of my childhood in Laos during the war and have spent much of my time writing to process what I experienced there and after as a result of it. I had not thought that it mattered to much of anyone except those of us who struggle with it out here. Rain rain's nimbus, moribund sky monsoon morning dims the day flooding fields, fragile seedlings set within a pale reflection wounded waters flowing blood bathe the streambed still heart's constriction memory's mark of war silent came the rain revengeful came the rain flat and grey and mourning we were the nimbus of rain our hearts were flooded with tears bathed in pools of blood there was plenty of death left for the rest of us planting our fields preparing our meals lonely touching our children to keep them near our eyes and mouths were full with rain a dull reflection in the growing fields for what harvest did we live through raintime to the dry ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:17:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Gleason Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents- thank you In-Reply-To: <199709271255.HAA28356@charlie.cns.iit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this is just a quick thanks to some of you recent posters (poster children). i've been pretty busy lately with things that keep me far away from my own computer, the few posts from this list i read anymore tend to be of a nature that turns me off, lots of bickering and some name-calling and bad vibes all around. made me want to pull the plug. but before running off i decided to go through some of the recent backlog of messages and found a few posts this weekend that were genuinely sweet. so thanks to kali and juliana and david (bromige if there's other davids to be confused with) and joe and the rest of you who've been playing well with others lately. xoxoxoxoxox, eryque just downloaded and installed the latest version of eudora. it's got some neato features, but the one i really want is a filter that adds an icon of a mud pie in a slingshot to those messages in my box i don't want to read. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <199709271255.HAA28356@charlie.cns.iit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this is just a quick thanks to some of you recent posters (poster children). i've been pretty busy lately with things that keep me far away from my own computer, the few posts from this list i read anymore tend to be of a nature that turns me off, lots of bickering and some name-calling and bad vibes all around. made me want to pull the plug. but before running off i decided to go through some of the recent backlog of messages and found a few posts this weekend that were genuinely sweet. so thanks to kali and juliana and david (bromige if there's other davids to be confused with) and joe and the rest of you who've been playing well with others lately. as others have said, i'm glad for the positive spin this thread seems to have put back into the list, and i'm learning a lot. xoxoxoxoxox, eryque just downloaded and installed the latest version of eudora. it's got some neato features, but the one i really want is a filter that adds an icon of a mud pie in a slingshot to those messages in my box i don't want to read. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 01:35:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: From the deplorable tradition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit one looks up a word because the nice way it sounds smiles on the definition over its likeness of sound all the while thinking all the time thoughts are quite random thinks of coffee running or writing evaluates. they are not all the same listening to jazz doesn’t prefer jazz called cool or easy listening. She is having a hard time listening does not turn it off thinking how difficult it is to not just lie in bed or to a lover thinking it doesn’t matter they are the same wants to tell someone they are the same but cannot find words tries to put they in a poem the range of them. Out loud where there is no one except the cats says “it is not one thing” it’s not for the cats they look for food other forms of entertainment. It is not one thing, silently this time. two speak on the phone one begins to say but stops pushed by the other only slightly continues wonders would it be different if they did it again the other, waiting for these words smiles upon hearing them says yes it would begins to speak of herself she and the other both like to speak of themselves, to each other three days after the phone call remembers the word it describes her soft sounds unpleasant its definition soft sounds equally unpleasant the cats meow one doesn’t one cat makes sounds soft that are very unpleasant ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 09:19:57 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L.MacMahon and T.R.Healy" Subject: Re: A Note on Prejudice Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Steve, read your note with interest. Catherine's reading at Brown was, even for her, unusually luminous. I was really quite surprised at the range of speech acts it embodied and the hi-res detail she communicated so naturally and easily. Mirroring perhaps your or one of your experiences of _Pitch_, on my first reading I felt it was an animated cognitive map which, yes, sounds exciting, but, on its own, can also be thin enough fare. I've heard her read from this book quite a few times at this stage, never the same twice. Maurice Scully mentioned once in conversation that he felt that syntax was a pivot for her, which she used to underpin multiple readings. Her fragmented phrasing, on the Brown reading, did however seem to depend on a very acute ear for what happens in speech as opposed to writing. Yes, two important strands in understanding her work, the psychic flow and talking in the wild. As you say, one is left relatively cueless, which I think is a formal necessity insofar as her verse is capable of withstanding many different and highly articulate readings. Billy Mills, in a paper in which he writes of Catherine's work among that of others, mentions landscape and history as two other threads. I get a feeling that landscape for Catherine is at least four never mind two dimensional. That somehow, history leaves a spatial trace. Sounds like nonsense, but when actually reading the stuff, that's how it feels. It seems too, like one of those optical illusion things, is it a vase? is it a face?, that whichever of the possible multiple readings strikes one at a particular time is utterly compelling. Now that _is_ something. Thanks for reminding me of her magnificent reading. Best wishes, Randolph Healy. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 02:37:33 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: From "MeliMelo" to "Taxi!" Comments: cc: aloha@u.washington.edu In-Reply-To: <97Sep27.180458hwt.587902(2)@relay1.Hawaii.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As for the space, editing and funding of journals, it is always a semi-slimy but wondrous work and one gets as much flack as praise for such collaborations. I for one would want to applaud and give thanks for the work of Juliana Spahr et al in CHAIN whose vision is capacious yet exacting, whose work is devoted to opening herself/the US poetry scene to "the outside" in some full international and material-language sense. The range of her editing speaks for itself, and no attempt to discredit her or the work she does editing and writing will work, as she will rise from the grave of such lack of perception. TINFISH is another such journals, capacious yet exacting in opening and linking the inner Pacific to a global/local range of experimental (and social-cultural poetics). Susan Schultz has devoted much time, love and energy to this, and we are grateful at home and afar. I wanted to tell this list about another editor and journal you may not know of: the Japanese/US writer from Kyotot and now in Seattle, Keijiro Suga. He was one of the key voices in the journal of mixed and mongrel ethnographic poetics called "Melimelo" which came out of Kyoto and gave an alternative voice to the mixes of Japan and Japan and Chicano-rich America. Jim Clifford have me a copy of that journal, and it changed around my own view of place/poetics as more a matter of routes and flows than just roots and entrenchments. Now Keijiro Suga has opened up a spendidly designed and colorfully edited journal on the web. It is called "Taxi!" and the four or five issues done so far help to flesh out his vision of poetics as something always "on the road" and in a state of travel to some edge of mixture. His taxi is quite singular and exacting. "Taxi!" can be found at this address: http://www2c.meshnet.or.jp/~taxi/ I would urge Charles Bernstein and Loss Pequeno to check it out as a candidate for the EPC journals page. And on this Sunday, always written under the sign of our Lady of Guadalupe, let us give praise to journals like Chain and Central Park and Taxi! and let the Hudson Review and Poetry drone on in their market blindness as our lady, say, ever intended it would be, gnostically yours in the US market. Rob Wilson in Santa Cruz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 11:42:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: picking up sides (name-paradox thread) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thinking on this question of what used to be called "discriminating" readers (steve's suggestive post), in light of hoa's observations re her status as part of (say) somehow contrary publishing outlets... i don't want to suggest a direct analogy here, in what i'm going to say... or even an analogy... but i do want to take this opportunity to raise an issue re gender, one that i live daily with as a result of where i teach... i'm on a tech campus, where it's 80% men... and i teach predominantly engineers, a profession that is (at best) currently running about 85% men... so i'm faced in my classes with a small percentage of women who aspire to belong (and i'll construct it this way to advance the problem as quickly as i can) to a predominantly male-occupied profession... now i don't have to say (but i will!) that i view this as a Good Thing---these women who aspire to becoming engineers... that i (and i assume we) would all like to see a more representative quotient of women (for one) in a profession that has such an incredible impact on our daily lives [he sez]... and yet, and yet (as i just posted a listmember backchannel the other day): i would like the profession to be less male, but i would also like women to question their desires, chart a path that has less to do with mimicking male behavior per se than with being passionate and critical as to technology, and explore their potential in *altering* the profession for the better, which might perhaps entail working against certain behaviorally male realities (of course i ask much the same of men!)... i would challenge, that is, the women as to their possible, male-identified behavior (b/c i regard male as the dominant group)... i would challenge the women who persist in sitting with the men in class, who shy away from the few other women in attendance... the women who just want to be "one of the guyz," who tell me they "don't really like women"... the same women who on occasion dress in extremely provocative feminine garb---though i must be certain not to over-generalize here, and though i must observe that the implicit fashion binary here is a sort of catch-22... now to bring this on over to publishing: clearly, hoa, you are not to be condemned or some such for having had writing 'picked up' by a primarily "male journal" (and neither is dale to be condemned for publishing/editing same, though i trust i've made it clear that i'd like to see a bit more reflexiveness on dale's part in this regard)... but i have noticed, at the same time, that in my own aspirations to be published by thus & so, i've been (perhaps rightfully) challenged by friends and poets as to the basis of my own aspirations, on the basis of the sort of publishing reality such & such effects... i would certainly begin to doubt mself were i to find my work published, say, in a neo-nazi newsletter... perhaps some of you will object to my self-doubt here, but so it goes... i don't want to see my website linked to such a website, either... so my question for the list is---and again trying like hell to steer clear of the analogy i seem to have supplied, sorry (i'm confident re my teaching situation, and even engineering, but i'm never so confident re my publishing aspirations)---how do you each value "discriminating" these days on the basis, for example, of gender?... in fact, how do you each value your aspirations?... i hope this is not beside the point, though i know some of you will want to keep the writing process as such distinct from such considerations... very well then, ex post facto, if you must... and as to questions of emotional attachment/disengagement/affect: i'd simply like to observe that this would seem to reflect the age-old anxiety about knowledge... about how "knowing too much" is alleged to 'spoil' certain formerly innocently (?--edenic, i know) conceived appreciations of art etc... this is encapsulated in the anti-theoretical stance of many 'creative writers' i've met... and henry in particular (!)---i'm using "anti-theoretical" to mean "anti-reflexive"---theorizing in its broadest terms, not "anti-academic-theoretical"... to which i might offer my own sense of things: that for me, there is no question, all said and done, of trying to permit my emotions the freeplay requisite to creating... and that writing has become for me a process of intellection (and in this sense critical, and urgent) even as it must of necessity be an enactment and embodiment of feeling... i mean to say, that this is what i think i'm doing when i'm creating---thinking and feeling... and what i think i'm doing is at least relevant to the extent that this is how i come to my own work... now what others may make of the results is another matter, for others are, though present, an imagined presence when i'm in the process... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 13:16:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: A Note on Prejudice Comments: To: Maria Damon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maria, I hear you, but I still hold to the notion that the one sure-fire way to asess the effectiveness of any aesthetic is to asess its power to let you empathize. All literature teaches this, in one way or another, or am I just an old softy? Patrick F. Durgin I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Maria Damon wrote: i find that my aesthetic sense has changed > since joining POETIX. i have mixed feelings about that; i feel that i've > gained some "sophistication" maybe but may have lost some ability to hear > the emotional subtexts that make "cliches" interesting, endearing, > powerful, meaningful-in-context, etc. some ability to listen > empathetically has perhaps ceded to my search for aesthetic thrills...md > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:30:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: From "MeliMelo" to "Taxi!" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks rob. suga was going to come to our conference but alas had to drop out. maybe he'll come to the twin towns on another occasion. sorry to have missed the chance to meet him. At 2:37 AM -1000 9/28/97, rob wilson wrote: >As for the space, editing and funding of journals, it is always a >semi-slimy but wondrous work and one gets as much flack as praise for such >collaborations. I for one would want to applaud and give thanks for the >work of Juliana Spahr et al in CHAIN whose vision is capacious yet >exacting, whose work is devoted to opening herself/the US poetry scene to >"the outside" in some full international and material-language sense. The >range of her editing speaks for itself, and no attempt to discredit her or >the work she does editing and writing will work, as she will rise from the >grave of such lack of perception. TINFISH is another such journals, >capacious yet exacting in opening and linking the inner Pacific to a >global/local range of experimental (and social-cultural poetics). Susan >Schultz has devoted much time, love and energy to this, and we are >grateful at home and afar. I wanted to tell this list about another >editor and journal you may not know of: the Japanese/US writer from >Kyotot and now in Seattle, Keijiro Suga. He was one of the key voices in >the journal of mixed and mongrel ethnographic poetics called "Melimelo" >which came out of Kyoto and gave an alternative voice to the mixes of >Japan and Japan and Chicano-rich America. Jim Clifford have me a copy of >that journal, and it changed around my own view of place/poetics as more a >matter of routes and flows than just roots and entrenchments. Now Keijiro >Suga has opened up a spendidly designed and colorfully edited journal on >the web. It is called "Taxi!" and the four or five issues done so far >help to flesh out his vision of poetics as something always "on the road" >and in a state of travel to some edge of mixture. His taxi is quite >singular and exacting. "Taxi!" can be found at this address: >http://www2c.meshnet.or.jp/~taxi/ >I would urge Charles Bernstein and Loss Pequeno to check it out as a >candidate for the EPC journals page. >And on this Sunday, always written under the sign of our Lady of >Guadalupe, let us give praise to journals like Chain and Central Park and >Taxi! and let the Hudson Review and Poetry drone on in their market >blindness as our lady, say, ever intended it would be, >gnostically yours in the US market. >Rob Wilson >in Santa Cruz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: A Note on Prejudice Comments: To: "p. durgin" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yes and no: i find that empathy, for me, isn't a "natural." i have to learn the language of exchange before i'm aware of the content; not just the content or language in terms of intellection or syntax, but the conventions of communicative exchange for *that* text, or recitation, or cultural event. renato rosaldo has a wonderful essay (can't remember the name of it or where it appeared) where he talked about learning to listen during his fieldwork. he said the Ilongot people he was living with would tell stories that comprised simply a recitation of place names; he felt incredibly bored and frustrated, while they were weeping. then he learned the stories behind the placenames; they were the places where, in fleeing from the japanese during WWII, various members of the tribe had lost individual family members, or had encountered other significant events associated with that period of their collective memory. then he was able to understand how to empathize. i remember reading this as a grad student and realizing that i had no idea how to listen with that degree of openness; i was so eager to jump in with an analysis, a critique or an evaluative judgment that i often missed the context or subtext entirely. so, to paraphrase george lipsitz, i need to constantly learn to listen as well as listen to learn. i find also (and this is a truism, but not to be overlooked) that my ability to empathize is a delicate one, often dependent on my health, degree of serenity, amount of sleep i've gotten, etc. it doesn't come from the power of "the work itself." At 1:16 PM -0500 9/28/97, p. durgin wrote: > Maria, I hear you, but I still hold to the notion that the one >sure-fire way to asess the effectiveness of any aesthetic is to asess its >power to let you empathize. All literature teaches this, in one way or >another, or am I just an old softy? > Patrick F. Durgin > I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I > >On Sat, 27 Sep 1997, Maria Damon wrote: > > i find that my aesthetic sense has changed >> since joining POETIX. i have mixed feelings about that; i feel that i've >> gained some "sophistication" maybe but may have lost some ability to hear >> the emotional subtexts that make "cliches" interesting, endearing, >> powerful, meaningful-in-context, etc. some ability to listen >> empathetically has perhaps ceded to my search for aesthetic thrills...md >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:27:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey, Kali, welcome back! It's OK to say love, I think, but then I'm no authority. I do know that I have to at least like the stuff I publish simply because I can't afford to publish everything. Too much time & money goes into it, and it's my time & money! Agreed also that the causes of like/love aren't always so simple to predict. I know I sometimes publish something because it irritates me, or because it is so far from something I could conceive of having written myself. All sorts of reasons. Pheromonal aesthetics--there's one to contemplate. best, Sylvester Backwoods Broadsides Chaplet Series #28 Mark Nowak, ZWYCZAJ #29 Mary de Rachewiltz, FAMILY TREE Subs. $10 yr, 8 issues. RR 5 Box 3630 Ellsworth ME 04605 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Herro! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How is life in the eastern edges of existence . Actually, I'm pretty fed up with Texas myself, but it's harder for me to bail. I'm probably bailing on the Word. I've got one guy to meet with Tuesday night to see if he's interested in taking on the pub, but that probably won't fly. Gwen said the stuff wouldn't install on your box, but if you could mail the stuff back to me (I knew I should've made a copy), I'll install it on my K6 box & hack up a review. Cool box. AMD 200 MMX, 24x CD, Soundblaster 64, 33.6 modem(fast enuf...), blah blah. I even got --in spite of the lack of SCSI-- Red Hat to install. Just need to high speed scsi stuff, the 17 inch monitor & the CD burner & I'll be go. Maybe a hot rod video card later. Ought to hold off that dual/quad processor urge till BeOS Intel & NT 5.0 hit... BTW, I picked up a book recently that's bizarre/intriguing/something: The Bible Code. The author has written for the NY Times & the Wall Street Journal. Anyway, the book documents the work of a mathematician in Israel who found a skip sequence code in the first five books of the Bible (the Pentateuch -sp- I believe). The statistics were published in a journal on statistics. Thoughts? Curiousity? Yawns? take care, Tim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 14:48:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:27 PM -0400 9/28/97, Sylvester Pollet wrote: >I do know that I have to at least like the stuff I publish >simply because I can't afford to publish everything. Too much time & money >goes into it, and it's my time & money! This comment reminds of a couple of other comments on this list regarding funding and the imperative to strive for some kind of racial/sexual diversity (I hate the word gender). More than one guy on this list has said something like, "Hey, Mr. X doesn't get grant money so he can publish whomever he likes." Obviously any publisher can and does publish whomever s/he likes. There seems to be some underlying implication that without grant money and its general insistance upon diversity that one has no moral imperative to be open to a broader range of possibilities. Dale says he only has 90 pages so he can't diversity, yet he criticizes Chain, which does diversify, for being too long. ????????? I also find offensive here that people have been bragging about the people of color whom they know and/or have published--I mean how condescending can you get. I think Hoa is much too nice to this list in her posts. Nobody wants to be turned into a pet. I'm much moved by Maria's last post, the honesty of it, concerning her struggles to learn to be open/empathetic. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Re: Devotion to the arts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Lemis forgot to mention that --assuming two pubs by the same name don't travesty the face of the Earth-- that "News of the Weird" is published by Joe Bob Briggs, self-described 'drive in movie critic of Grapevine, Texas'. Nothing like some harmless New Orleans weirdness to make a Texan feel better. I think it's more interesting to note the demand for iambic pentameter. I think that an interpretation of poetry that narrow --and some would say dated-- says more about the state of poets and their community than it says about the perceived public ignorance. I've heard any number of variants of the 'death of poetry' argument and I'm still not convinced that we can say more on that point than that poetry is not the integral part of American public discourse that it is in other countries. I'm constantly amazed by the amount of interest by Joe Public in poetry. I'm not amazed at how quickly poets seem to kill that interest through grand standing, lack of emotional investment in their work, lack of interest in the the work of others (past & present) and lack of involvement in the poetry community. Perhaps we need letter bombs demanding sound poetry... Tim Wood ---------- > From: joel lewis > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Devotion to the arts > Date: Tuesday, September 02, 1997 11:18 PM > > FROM: NEWS OF THE WIERD > > * Brothers Geoffrey and Aaron Kuffner were arrested in New > Orleans in June and charged with terrorism as the ones who had > recently mailed or hand-delivered suspicious packages to local > government and news media offices. The packages contained > innocuous items (which nonetheless were frightening enough that > two offices called for evacuations) and a four-page manifesto > vowing that "Violent Acts of Consciousness Have Only Begun." > According to police, the men's goal was to call attention to public > ignorance of poetry and that among their demands was that all state > inaugural speeches be written in iambic pentameter. > > joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 16:57:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tim Wood Subject: Please ignore Herro! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops sorry.. I'm still getting used to a new mail program on a new operating system, etc. etc. mas mea culpa. Tim ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 15:34:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dodie, you've just disallowed, or caused to be seen as tainted, almost every means to communicate about these issues. Not every writer could accomplish that in so few words. At 02:48 PM 9/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >At 5:27 PM -0400 9/28/97, Sylvester Pollet wrote: >>I do know that I have to at least like the stuff I publish >>simply because I can't afford to publish everything. Too much time & money >>goes into it, and it's my time & money! > >This comment reminds of a couple of other comments on this list regarding >funding and the imperative to strive for some kind of racial/sexual >diversity (I hate the word gender). More than one guy on this list has >said something like, "Hey, Mr. X doesn't get grant money so he can publish >whomever he likes." Obviously any publisher can and does publish whomever >s/he likes. There seems to be some underlying implication that without >grant money and its general insistance upon diversity that one has no moral >imperative to be open to a broader range of possibilities. Dale says he >only has 90 pages so he can't diversity, yet he criticizes Chain, which >does diversify, for being too long. ????????? > >I also find offensive here that people have been bragging about the people >of color whom they know and/or have published--I mean how condescending can >you get. I think Hoa is much too nice to this list in her posts. Nobody >wants to be turned into a pet. > >I'm much moved by Maria's last post, the honesty of it, concerning her >struggles to learn to be open/empathetic. > >Dodie > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:51:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dodie, it's true that I'm a guy on the list. I didn't say anything about "people of color" ( a phrase I never use, because it's as bad as "colored people," in my estimation. I'm open to all sorts of possibilities, I hope, and love moral imperatives. I don't even require that the people I publish use words. Don't lump people to bash them, do it one-by -one. That's a good moral imperative, isn't it? I mean, if bash you must? >At 5:27 PM -0400 9/28/97, Sylvester Pollet wrote: >>I do know that I have to at least like the stuff I publish >>simply because I can't afford to publish everything. Too much time & money >>goes into it, and it's my time & money! > >This comment reminds of a couple of other comments on this list regarding >funding and the imperative to strive for some kind of racial/sexual >diversity (I hate the word gender). More than one guy on this list has >said something like, "Hey, Mr. X doesn't get grant money so he can publish >whomever he likes." Obviously any publisher can and does publish whomever >s/he likes. There seems to be some underlying implication that without >grant money and its general insistance upon diversity that one has no moral >imperative to be open to a broader range of possibilities. Dale says he >only has 90 pages so he can't diversity, yet he criticizes Chain, which >does diversify, for being too long. ????????? > >I also find offensive here that people have been bragging about the people >of color whom they know and/or have published--I mean how condescending can >you get. I think Hoa is much too nice to this list in her posts. Nobody >wants to be turned into a pet. > >I'm much moved by Maria's last post, the honesty of it, concerning her >struggles to learn to be open/empathetic. > >Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 18:35:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" oh no, we're gonna have a pissing contest again!... listen folks, sylvester and dodie and and and: "people of color," whatever its problems, is not no way uh-uh publicly understood (as a rule) as "as bad as colored people"... and "gender," no matter how much you may dislike same (and lord knows why, b/c the word has a history of usage that's quite specific and specifically useful and does something different than "sexual") is a perfectly legit way to deal with issues of GENDER... SHEESH can we please exhibit a bit more... patience mebbe? for one another's locutions?... i mean, we hang in different parts of the world, i take it... ok by me... but that don't mean we can't be a bit more go a bit more gently, gently pretty please?/// best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:45:03 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: DS Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, as English IS the language of the oppressors we should stop using english. Or even semaphore, morse. Perhaps all talk in sign language. Sorry for the facisiousness, i don't think she has at all. Just pointed out the cringe factor in phrases such as my "black friend" or my "my gay friend". Not something i have ever been guilty of as i don't have any friends. - Also not something anyone has really been doing. I feel mt cannon has come loose & crashed right across the deck leaving a large briney sucking yawing (ing) hole in me larboard side. ARgh, i wish i had Jack Spanhide to drift behind. no one At 03:34 PM 9/28/97 -0700, you wrote: >Dodie, you've just disallowed, or caused to be seen as tainted, almost >every means to communicate about these issues. Not every writer could >accomplish that in so few words. > >At 02:48 PM 9/28/97 -0700, you wrote: ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 17:27:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Reuben Radding Subject: News of the Weird In-Reply-To: <009BAC63.EF48065C.57@admin.njit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To the fellow who credited "News of the Weird" to Joe Bob Briggs, actually Mr Briggs is the publisher of We Are The Weird. NOTW is a column by Chuck Sheppard. -Reuben Radding rrad@drizzle.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:17:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I also find offensive here that people have been bragging about the people >of color whom they know and/or have published--I mean how condescending can >you get. "Brag: to talk boastfully about oneself. 'Boast' is the most general of the verbs for the expression of vanity, primarily by vocal means. 'Brag,' used in more informal contexts, implies exaggerated claims, blatancy, and oftenan air of insolence." -- _American Heritage Dictionary of the American Language_ Seems to me that what we've got here is a group of people trying to speak honestly and carefully about a loaded, emotional minefield of a subject in which everyone has a personal stake. I wrote: >My African American >friends who are poets send me poetry by *their* friends, who are often >African American. But--at least in my experience--all this diversity has >to be based on *real* relationships, real friendships and collegial >connections between people who genuinely like and respect and try to >understand each other. My immediate assumption, as a white person, is that >when I make a new contact with a person of color, the burden of proof is on >*me* to demonstrate, over a period of time, that I do have a genuine liking >and respect for the person and his/her work, and that I'm *not* simply >"collecting" token poets or token friends to feed my own image. After a >while my intentions become clear and that's a basis for building mutual >trust and respect (a process which is neverending). Takes a lot of time >and energy. But then, don't all friendships? so I assume Dodie is not referring to me, since I explicitly state that I'm not interested in token poets or token friends. But I can't figure out who else might be her target here, since I haven't noticed anyone who might be doing anything akin to "bragging." Wrestling, maybe. But not bragging. As a white African Americanist, I'm used to people looking at me funny when I talk about African American culture(s) or African American poetry, or even my African American friends. My black friends. My friends who are persons of color. Liberal types are so hyped up to cringe when they hear echoes of "some of my best friends are 'X'" that they can't hardly hear "my friend who is African American" without assuming it's some sort of trophy claim. What? Am I supposed to have black friends without acknowledging, somehow, that they are black? That being black matters to them and, therefore, matters to me? What sort of friend would I be then? How could we talk to each other about our lives? Or am I supposed to be satisfied with having no black friends because every time I seek the company of an African American colleague some people are going to presume that I'm doing it *just* because she's black? I quit worrying what other people think about this stuff a long, long time ago. I know who my friends are, and they know who I am, and that's how we play it, and if I've got anything to prove, I need to prove it to my friends and not to a stranger who hears ghosts in my words. Friendship is about caring enough for another person to want to understand who and what they are, when and where they enter--it's about caring enough to try to put your own shit aside for a while and deal with *their* shit. It's about recognizing the distance between you as well as the points of contact. It's about... well, dammit, it's about love. Just as, for me, poetry is about love. In that sense, I approach poems and people the same way. I take them in context, try to understand where they come from, the traditions upon which they draw, their relative power, their interests and agendas, the stucture of their understanding of the world, the grace with which they move through that world, the payment they demand, the gifts that they bear. And if I feel that diversity--in people and in poetry--increases the richness and the beauty and the pain and the intensity of the life that I live, and if I want to sing the praises of such diversity, of that kind of love, why is that a problem? And sure I know that I've got privileges my African American friends will never have--and they know that too, you better believe it. I know I don't like it, but they know and I know that pretending I don't have those privileges benefits nobody, while using them to open doors when I can, and not abusing them at all other times is the responsibility I bear for being born privileged and the absolute minimum qualification I've got to meet before I'm worthy of their friendship... or anybody else's. Another way I interpret that responsibility is to carry my friends--all of them--always with me, and to never complacently inhabit places where they are not welcome and would not be comfortable. This means, when I'm in an all-white venue, that I can't tolerate the levels of racism which are comfortable for many white people, and which--because they are white --even well-meaning white folks often don't notice. And it means, when I'm in the company of lesbian feminist friends, that I can't tolerate certain kinds of WhiteHetMale bashing, either. Insisting on diversity is, for me, ensuring that I'll endure a certain level of discomfort in almost any venue, but, on the other hand, it also brings me deep and richly satisfying relationships with very different people. It's all a matter of what's important to you and who you are willing to love. And why shouldn't we talk about that? Kali Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:52:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: <199709282335.SAA29258@charlie.cns.iit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 6:35 PM -0500 9/28/97, Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher wrote: >can we please exhibit a bit more... patience mebbe? for one another's >locutions?... i mean, we hang in different parts of the world, i take it... >ok by me... but that don't mean we can't be a bit more My question to you Joe, is why would you allow yourself to be published in a series of straight white working class men? Don't you feel you're being turned into a cartoon? I can't talk for people of color but I can talk as a working class person and I certainly wouldn't want to be published as a Working Class Woman. Like yuck. Don't you feel like your allowing yourself to be victimized by an imperialist? Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 20:17:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Stepping into Steve Carll's shoes In-Reply-To: <199709282345.LAA16836@icarus.ihug.co.nz> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Went to a reading the other night and I saw Steve Carll there. I asked him, why no more reports on Poetics List. (for you who are new to Poetics List I should explain that SF poet Steve Carll used to come on here all the time and give reports on every reading he had been to, and that means plenty!) He shrugged and said he unsubscribed. I said I would try to fill in for him. First Leslie Scalapino read. (I can't remember all the different lines Steve used to quote from, so I will try to describe the story lines instead.) She read six poems from a sequence called "New Time" which I had not heard, then launched into the beginning of something she is calling a detective novel. Its title is "Orchid Jetsam." The two main characters, Grace Abe and Andrew Chen, work in the San Francisco Police Department and are investigating a strange murder case. Abe is additionally burdened (or enhanced) by the fact she is being possessed by the spirit of a Marine slain in the Gulf War Desert Storm who enters her body at inopportune times during the investigation. I asked Scalapino if she was riffing off the "X Files" because it certainly had that spooky the truth is out there kind of feeling about it. She said no, in fact she had never seen the "X Files" and you know something, I believed her! Anyway as usual a reading filled with great theatrical powers of "explaining" those long involved sentences and fragments of sentences, explaining them by keeping them balanced like the balls of the juggler, up in the air till she wants them to come down in the right or skewed places, through the voice and a subtle movement of the fingers of her left hand. Then Edwin Torres came on. It was an interesting gamble to see if these two poets would work together successfully and one that seemed to invigorate them both. Torres used a boombox to play background chants and orchestral thumps and thwacks while reciting poetry and sounds over the recorded sounds. Many young people in the audience responded favorably to this combination, one woman told me that this was the best reading she had ever heard in her life. The words came often from Torres new book "SandHommeNomadNo" and a forthcoming CD "Holy Kid" (Kill Rock Stars label). Torres who had never read before in San Francisco seemed pleased and abashed by his reception. We will be sorry to see him go back to New York, but around here, nobody stays for very long, they are all dust in the wind. You think you will have stability in your life, but you don't. It's a fact of life in San Francisco that all must deal with sooner or later. The poetry reflects this. Torres was always doing all this formalistic stuff--breaking words down into phonemes and distorting them by combining them, say, with animal imitations or the high energy vernacular of a dozen different NY street cultures-- but it was always infused with emotional intensity and a certain variety of timbre . . . some of the sounds he emitted could only be heard by dogs. In this way, I feel, his writing appeals to a broad range of people, and when read on the page feels a bit abandoned, as though the reader is getting only half of the dimensions; however, in "SandHommeNomadNo" this lack, or absence, is partially softened--just like life--by typography and in fact--the slowness with which the words are read gives them back the "meaning" they lose in performance. So, is it six of one and half a dozen of the other? Or 12 of both, either way? And now for the real Steve Carllism, who was in the audience! There were so many people in the audience I didn't recognize half of them. Perhaps they were fans of the spoken word movement, and some were definitely students of Mills College and the Art Institute, places where Scalapino has been teaching lately. And of New College, because students there can get in free (this was a reading sponsored by Small Press Traffic.) I saw Pamela Lu, Rick London, Liz Willis, Peter Gizzi, Mary Margaret Sloan, Rodrigo Toscano, Hung Tu, Mary Burger, Lyn Hejinian, Simone Fattal, Bob Gluck, Jocelyn Saidenburg, Aaron Shurin, Hugh Steinberg, and sixty or seventy others. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 28 Sep 1997 19:34:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: A Note on Prejudice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randolph, >I get a feeling that landscape for Catherine is at least four never mind two >dimensional. That somehow, history leaves a spatial trace. Sounds like >nonsense, but when actually reading the stuff, that's how it feels. That's not nonsense. >It seems too, like one of those optical illusion things, is it a vase? is it >a face?, that whichever of the possible multiple readings strikes one at a >particular time is utterly compelling. Now that _is_ something. Yes, that is something. I don't know her work, but...this could be a description of most any verse. I gather from your excitement that she is, however, more deliberate than most. Is that right? If so, this deliberateness would be an essential quality of what she is doing. I like that idea. But is it illusion? We could as easily call it a manifestation of quantum theory, if we liked those kind of metaphors, or a particular method of embodying consciousness, if we preferred those. Using the term "optical illusion" is akin to placing consciousness in quotes. Something has to place the quotes. Might as well dive right in and be at sea, because as far as I can ascertain we are anyway. Thanks for the good insights. Best, Harold Rhenisch ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 02:24:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >My question to you Joe, is why would you allow yourself to be published in >a series of straight white working class men? Don't you feel you're being >turned into a cartoon? I can't talk for people of color but I can talk as >a working class person and I certainly wouldn't want to be published as a >Working Class Woman. Like yuck. Dodie, Joe can answer this himself, I'm sure. In fact, we spoke of your post briefly on the phone tonight, since it flashed across my screen as we traded news about our lives and talked about the important stuff--work, relationships, new ideas, hopes, fears, the stories you share with friends. The phone rang almost immediately again after I hung up. It was Renny Christopher, whose book of poetry, _Viet Nam and California_ is now in press and will be the second volume published by Burning Cities / Viet Nam Generation in 1997. I read Renny your post and she started to laugh. Renny is just finishing up the task of editing a special issue on working class studies for the journal _Feminist Studies_. She calls herself a working class poet and a working class scholar and doesn't find the title "yuck" in the least. There's a range of sentiment about the label "working class," just like there's a range of sentiment about any label-- people have different ideas about who they are and how they want to be recognized. Working Class Studies is a burgeoning field populated (no surprise) mostly by working class scholars, or scholars who identify with or spring from the working class. Working class anthologies (including anthologies of poetry and literature) are showing up all over--the commercial presses may indeed exploit working class writers, but the small press and academic anthologies don't seem to have any trouble filling their pages with good writing by people who are proud to be published as working class writers. Me, I don't have any problem being published as "X", as long as it's done respectfully and I feel that I, as an "X" have some say in the process and by participating gain some personal benefit and some benefit for "X"s in general. What you're forgetting here, Dodie, is that Joe is a friend of mine. It's you who boils down the White Noise series to some cartoonish population of working class WhiteHetMale poets, not me. I know each of those poets (David Connolly, Elliot Richman, David Vancil, Gerald McCarthy, Joe Amato, Dale Ritterbusch, Philip Jason, M.L. Liebler), and I count each of them a friend, respect each one for who he is and what of himself he is willing to share with me and with his readers. These poets' whiteness and maleness are not the *reasons* for publishing them, and I wouldn't swear that every single one is straight or that each and every one qualifies as "working class," (who am I, after all, to issue certifications?), but there is a unifying theme or "feel" to their work which seems to me well characterized by White Noise. Part of their intensity, and strength is born out of a rejection of a particular stereotype of white maleness, out of a reaction to a cultural location, and there is, in each poet's work, a kind of courage I admire, a level of sensibility and emotion and commitment that seems to me worthy of notice and praise. Most important, though, I think they are all fine poets, and I am proud to have helped to bring their work to an audience. If you read the series, it might give you some insight into my project and a deeper understanding of their work. They are no fools, no dupes, no victims, and would laugh at anyone who told them different. Why go after me with such ferocity? Or, rather, if you care to go after me with this ferocity, I'd prefer to take it back-channel, to discuss it with you as one human being to another, rather than playing it out as street theater. POETICS has been the site of too many pitched battles between people who would make better allies than enemies. A Sixties scholar, I can't help making a comparison to the splintering of progressive groups like SDS, who spent so much time infighting they weren't left with enough energy or a cohesive enough community to take effective action to change a system everyone in all factions agreed was evil. I've been as guilty (and maybe more guilty) of such infighting as anyone else, but I'm honestly tired of it and I'm no longer going to participate in such struggles. Peace, Kali Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:08:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents dodie did you read my post as "bragging about people of color i know?" part of me thinks you can't possibly have gone down THAT path, but after the cycles of wierdness, anything is beginning to seem possible. if not, sorry to have asked. if so, go back and read it again. i bring it up as analog to gender inclusion/ exclusion using a parallel situation in my life at present where at first glance, the issue seems racial. and my response is anger, and seems along racial lines. but when i go back and make myself be more objective, make lists and describe this dilemna to very objective, analytic friends, a number of other factors start coming in and soon, it reduces to one group of people blanking out another. not attacking, exactly (though they whisper and snigger occasionally) but having a smooth, flat, reflectant surface whenever they are in proximity to group (in this case, black, but also older, with kids, largely 1rst/2nd generation immigrants, working, poor, etc being blindsided by group largely opposite in every respect mentioned). as with this, so with the poet first mentioned -- he describes a lack of authentic poetry, turns to one sort, and seems completely obvlivious, blank sided, smooth flat and reflectant-surfaced to an entire, huge body of poetry based on authentic and universal experience (new movement in womens writing). the blindness, non-seeing, may not be as simple as you black/female/other vs. me white/male/my sort. it may not exactly be malice, deserving of and responsive to anger but something more complex. in support of last thought, i offer the often-seen response of "there is no poetry of X type out there" when shown a huge volume of poetry by, lets say women for this example, of X type with promise for much more. response, more often than not, is another wierd compendium: "oh, wow, this is great" and then responder does not look up any more and a few weeks later, repeats statement about no poetry of X type. blank spot, smooth reflectant surface, non-seeing... thus, the white women in my school (not all but most) sit at lab one day with one of the black women (and it is black, not "of color" although, interestingly, we have one indian (india) woman who seems to be treated the same as the black women), they'll laugh, share books, have fun, get stuff done, and one hour later, ONE HOUR, and white woman X goes right by her former lab partner at lunch without one single glance and goes to sit next to other white woman she hardly knows. blank spot? non-seeing? there does'nt seem malice, just blankness... e ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:02:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: walsh, prejudice, etc In-Reply-To: from "Steve Evans" at Sep 27, 97 04:31:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a note of thanks to Steve Evans for his remarkably thoughtful meditation on reading prejudices. I read it having just visited a good friend, an older poet whom most of us on this list (including myself) would categorize as "mainstream," but whose open-mindedness as a reader I've always appreciated. He told me he'd begun reading Perelman's *Virtual Reality* after someone, in addition to myself, had recommended it. He'd more or less given up on "language poets" long ago. He said, "If two people who aren't dumb tell me I should read something, I figure I've just missed it, that I haven't found a way into the poems yet." That's laconic and 'Yankee' of him, to be sure - a methodology which will keep him from reading any number of worthwhile poets. Still, he was reading Perelman 'hard,' as carefully as he knew how. And, there seemed to be something to this - what we're able to find our way into, who we're able to read with some sense of pleasure, depends so much on how wide our nexus of associations/associates is. Which is to say, poetry is a communicative possibility which depends on a whole host of other communicative acts. Steve's gift seems to be a faith that the communicative acts of others (Walsh for instance) are never intended as monologue, always as dialogue. Anyway, thanks Steve, for letting us eavesdrop. -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:23:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: name, paradox, &c. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As many have already said, this has been a fine thread, pushing thought, & I too am grateful for all the considered responses. I am reminded of bpNichol's suggestion that there are a number of different poetics, the researchers, those who learn quickly from them & follow up the original research, those who continue to maintain the classic stances, work through the continuing possibilities of 'convention' (as with feminismS or postodernismS there are a LOT of conventional sites & states -- we cant situate everyone in one box, even in that third category). I wonder if this doesnt apply to reading too (& perhaps editing as such). I also wonder if we can't move between or among the 'levels' as bp, a most generous reader of everyone, often did. It can be called eclecticism but it doesnt have to be mealylouthed. I like Steve Evan's take because it suggests one of the ways such a move happens. I certainly have learned to 'like' some writing I wasnt sure of through hearing the writer read the work, & have sometimes learned of work I didnt even know existed that way. Always a good moment when that happens. So what I 'like' & would publish may very well change (broaden?) over time. I have had so many limited definitions of 'good' poetry that some new poem has destroyed, forced me to braoden the definition, over the years. For the work that broke the bias I am always grateful... But the bias is a place to start: having some sense of what touches me, moves me, gets me thinking, etc. And then I need to be open to the possibility that I can change. In response to Juliana on the 50/50 m/w breakdown in _Chain_, I am reminded of an article by Samuel R Delany some 25 years ago at least, in which he pointed out that, despite his feeling that he was thoroughly 'for' women's equality, he discovered that when he was in a crowd of people & thought the number of women was equal to the number of men, he would count & find that really the percentage of women was between 10% and a high of 25%. So he went into perceptual training & found that after some time when he thought the numbers were equal, it was about 40% women. Yeah. ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ In the gloom, the gold gathers the light against it. Ezra Pound ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:31:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: The Name & the Paradox of its Contents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dodie, i generally joke with my friends about my own cartoonish qualities... i mean, i love cartoons, can't help mself... i esp. love the rocky/bullwinkle show, and watch the reruns late at night... it may be that 'my working class ain't your working class' (to paraphrase another book/issue)... but let's see... i think, in general, that categories are necessary conveniences, and therefore dangerous to the extent that they're used reductively... i'd sure hate to think that my work is reducible to my working-classness or some such... but then, no doubt about it---my working-classness or some such is a strong gradient in *some* of my work... so let's get up close and personal, ok?... i published my first poem at 36... my first book of poetry (the one kali published, a coupla years after we'd met and become friends) at 40... i'm not part of the mfa circuit (which is notnotnot intended as a slam of said circuit)---in fact i don't hold the trad. doctorate, i hold a doctor of arts, or d.a., from suny/albany (which some of you academix out there will no doubt understand in terms of its various complications---i'm proud of my degree program, in any case)... kali's commitment to publishing work she liked, incl. work by a group of whitehetmen (tags used advisedly, now) resulted in my book being published, w/o my having to publish in more orthodox OR more avant-garde venues (very little of my book was in print, actually, before the book was published---with the result that that book, if you read it closely, is comprised of older, more trad. work in the front, and newer, less trad. writing toward the 'end'---as ron silliman was so nice to post me about after reading through)... now: i'm working-class to the extent that both my folks were (though my mother would have graduated college in europe, were it not for the war)... 50s style three bedroom ranch (in the 50s and 60s) until my folks divorced in 68 and my life REALLY began to take on some rather quirky proportions, growing up as i did with my father and brother in an upper flat in a deadended part of edgecity at $75 a month rent (not exactly what you'd call swanky)... twelve years in that place... welfare foodstamps low wages alcoholism culminating in cancer death etc etc etc prior to my even publishing a single fucking poem... well it's almost stereotypical, and in fact not working-class at all---it's poverty line... but me, i worked only summer jobs that could be called working class---my aspirations as a worker were directed at salary positions (the only way 'out' was a career in engineering), and these aspirations raised anxieties in me not unlike the ones i occasionally feel when i aspire to publishing hither and thither (although i must admit it's much easier for me these days)... but again, i'd hate anybody to think my work (or aesthetic, or self, or whateverthefuck) reduced to "working class" or "poverty line"... still, you test me in these terms, you gets what you pays for... now: since you've given me the opportunity to rant a bit (and really---if you know me at all you'll know that the rough edges in this post are accompanied by a smile---which really tends to piss people off f2f, *sorry*) i may as well take a moment to plug my own, very working-class book (as some will no doubt observe upon reading): _no outlet: an engineer in the works_ (i keep tweaking that subtitle, but i like this one), due out someday i hope on a MAJOR TRADE PRESS, with some real money accompanying the transaction (and hey, i don't even have an agent yet!)... and i hope the motherfucker becomes a motherfucking bestseller, you bet your sweet as i do--- well i'm talking to you *all* now, not just dodie, and you can see how i get mself into trouble with my big fucking mouth... i mean, kass and i are tens of thousands in debt on plastic, and there's no inheritance in the cards, if you get my drift... and i'm getting real tired of living with this financial pressure, which it seems i've been living with now since forever... i'm certain many of you can relate... now i have some doubts about my trade press aspirations, some real aesthetic and writing community doubts (in my view, a trade press simply 'buys' an audience for you), but i have to say---with the work nearly complete, in less than a year---i am, to my own surprise, relatively pleased mself with the results, which seem to complicate my 'working class self' even while managing to tell some readable (in a more popular sense) stories... but hey, i'm the author... and i worry about the reception of my book---that somebody will pigeonhole the book or me as being specifically 'one a those'... but then, the packaging/publishing aspect is, again, a categorical (marketplace) convenience, one that i've tried like hell to keep at arm's length in my own writing (even though of course i know when i'm writing against the popular grain---i've been around that long)... and the work itself will speak either directly or indirectly to all attempts at pigeonholing (i hope directly)... i have confidence, this close to completion, that i'll be ok in this regard... but who knows?---ergo my anxieties re publication, esp. with alla those other memoirs 'out there,' for example... does this clarify at all?... i hope so, 'cause it's the best i can do at the moment by way of *fleshing out* the sort of situatedness (yes, chi-chi critical vocab. deployed now) in which i locate my various selves... only a single signature, though/// best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:38:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laurie Schneider/Crag Hill Subject: Readership and Writing asLived Experience Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Long drive makes me late to these threads: I find intriguing Kevin Killian's generous/risky practice as editor of publishing a cross-section of work that slides across his desk into his rangefinder. (Mirage is thus always pleasurably eclectic. Aldon Nielsen's lower limit speech has also done this.) Unavoidably, Killian publishes what he likes, yet it seems the emphasis shifts from editorial predilection to what his readers might find provocative. He acts less as filter, more as facilitator. We certainly need magazines like that -- pointing us toward the panoply so we know more about writing than the editor's aesthetic. Edwin Honig in his call for a poetry of "lived experience" overlooks the fact that writing itself is such. If it isn't, why do it? Granted writing will always be safer than hunkering down in sucking mud with mortar shells dropping, yet it is no less a living act. I think of what Tim O'Brien says in The Things They Carried: Story truth is truer than Happening truth. What occurs in our imaginations as we write and read is more meaningful, more primary/primal, than the historical events that may or may not trigger our imaginations. Poetry about history inevitably becomes simply history. Writers should take us to felt/thought places that have always been and will always be (even those just coming into cognition), no matter how they do it. Best, Crag ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 07:19:03 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: working class thread Content-Type: text/plain Following up on Dodie's post/ Kali response re: working class poets I don't really understand why Dodie's post was read as an attack on Kali or Joe. Could it be that Dodie was asking a *real* question of Joe? I would like to know how he feels about belonging to the "White Noise" group-- and I imagine that perhaps Joe would welcome the chance to talk about his poetry activities and affiliations (?). I am wondering 2 things-- How come you would feel yuck published in a "working class women journal", Dodie (a really real question-- I have questions around this for myself in terms of other identity categories) and secondly, how come the response to Dodie's post was a longish defensive complaint, Kali? questioningly, hoa >>My question to you Joe, is why would you allow yourself to be published in >>a series of straight white working class men? Don't you feel you're being >>turned into a cartoon? I can't talk for people of color but I can talk as >>a working class person and I certainly wouldn't want to be published as a >>Working Class Woman. Like yuck. > >Dodie, > >Joe can answer this himself, I'm sure. In fact, we spoke of your post >briefly on the phone tonight, since it flashed across my screen as we >traded news about our lives and talked about the important stuff--work, >relationships, new ideas, hopes, fears, the stories you share with friends. >The phone rang almost immediately again after I hung up. It was Renny >Christopher, whose book of poetry, _Viet Nam and California_ is now in >press and will be the second volume published by Burning Cities / Viet Nam >Generation in 1997. I read Renny your post and she started to laugh. >Renny is just finishing up the task of editing a special issue on working >class studies for the journal _Feminist Studies_. She calls herself a >working class poet and a working class scholar and doesn't find the >title "yuck" in the least. There's a range of sentiment about the label >"working class," just like there's a range of sentiment about any label-- >people have different ideas about who they are and how they want to be >recognized. > >Working Class Studies is a burgeoning field populated (no surprise) mostly >by working class scholars, or scholars who identify with or spring from >the working class. Working class anthologies (including anthologies >of poetry and literature) are showing up all over--the commercial >presses may indeed exploit working class writers, but the small press >and academic anthologies don't seem to have any trouble filling their >pages with good writing by people who are proud to be published as >working class writers. Me, I don't have any problem being published as >"X", as long as it's done respectfully and I feel that I, as an "X" have >some say in the process and by participating gain some personal benefit >and some benefit for "X"s in general. > >What you're forgetting here, Dodie, is that Joe is a friend of mine. It's >you who boils down the White Noise series to some cartoonish population >of working class WhiteHetMale poets, not me. I know each of those poets >(David Connolly, Elliot Richman, David Vancil, Gerald McCarthy, Joe Amato, >Dale Ritterbusch, Philip Jason, M.L. Liebler), and I count each of them a >friend, respect each one for who he is and what of himself he is willing >to share with me and with his readers. These poets' whiteness and maleness >are not the *reasons* for publishing them, and I wouldn't swear that every >single one is straight or that each and every one qualifies as "working >class," (who am I, after all, to issue certifications?), but there is a >unifying theme or "feel" to their work which seems to me well characterized >by White Noise. Part of their intensity, and strength is born out of a >rejection of a particular stereotype of white maleness, out of a reaction >to a cultural location, and there is, in each poet's work, a kind of >courage I admire, a level of sensibility and emotion and commitment that >seems to me worthy of notice and praise. Most important, though, I think >they are all fine poets, and I am proud to have helped to bring their >work to an audience. If you read the series, it might give you some insight >into my project and a deeper understanding of their work. They are no >fools, no dupes, no victims, and would laugh at anyone who told them >different. > >Why go after me with such ferocity? Or, rather, if you care to go after >me with this ferocity, I'd prefer to take it back-channel, to discuss it >with you as one human being to another, rather than playing it out as >street theater. POETICS has been the site of too many pitched battles >between people who would make better allies than enemies. A Sixties >scholar, I can't help making a comparison to the splintering of progressive >groups like SDS, who spent so much time infighting they weren't left >with enough energy or a cohesive enough community to take effective action >to change a system everyone in all factions agreed was evil. I've been >as guilty (and maybe more guilty) of such infighting as anyone else, but >I'm honestly tired of it and I'm no longer going to participate in such >struggles. > >Peace, >Kali > > > > > > > >Kali Tal new WORD order >PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com >520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" > >Sixties Project kali@kalital.com >http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:47:40 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: gender history & the other stuff Why not dig myself a deeper foxhole & respond again to Elliza's complaint. She argues or implies that Honig & others like him stereotype experimental women's writing as unhistorical, abstract, unreadable, & on the other hand valorize men's writing, vet's writing, as historical, understandable, in touch with the "authentic" story or stories. This issue has a long & complex history itself about which I certainly am no authority. I just want to say that in my view the issue of realism, authenticity, representation, history, & empathy need not be divided either along gender lines or experimental/traditional lines. I THINK GOOD WRITING CONTINUALLY CROSSES THESE LINES (as Steve Evan's appreciation of C. Walsh was pointing toward). I think the keynote might be what the "objectivists" pointed toward as a value - sincerity. What is sincerity but a measure of the balance achieved by the artist between "experience" and "art"? If art is a mimesis or re-experiencing of experience filtered or tempered by the understanding - the logos - then this balance is utterly necessary for authentic art. And everything wavers across that plumbline. Between slack repetitions of experience and petty contortions of technique for its own sake lies the plumbline of authentic art. Now in my own view - not Mr. Honig's - there is a ton of slack writing on BOTH sides of that plumbline. There IS a lot of critical support for "texts" which equate radical innovation with abstract unreadability. Elliza's absolutely right that returning to some kind of group-sanctioned Men's Version of History is both reactionary & ridiculous. So Edwin has a complaint & Elliza has a complaint. Do they have to cancel each other out with mutual caricatures? Where is the joy in reading a pedestrian rehash of misunderstood cliches of so-called experience? Where is the joy in trying to read some pedantic ambitious hypocrite's re-working of styles invented by Pound or Stein & sanctioned by a couple generations of grad schools? Unless the poem itself hits the poet over the head in roughly the same degree of velocity & ferocity that life itself hits us all over the head from day one well I say why read it. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:27:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Readership and Writing asLived Experience In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:38:28 -0700 from On Mon, 29 Sep 1997 06:38:28 -0700 Crag Hill said: > >Edwin Honig in his call for a poetry of "lived experience" overlooks the >fact that writing itself is such. If it isn't, why do it? Granted writing >will always be safer than hunkering down in sucking mud with mortar shells >dropping, yet it is no less a living act. I think of what Tim O'Brien says >in The Things They Carried: Story truth is truer than Happening truth. What >occurs in our imaginations as we write and read is more meaningful, more >primary/primal, than the historical events that may or may not trigger our >imaginations. Poetry about history inevitably becomes simply history. >Writers should take us to felt/thought places that have always been and >will always be (even those just coming into cognition), no matter how they >do it. This is an important point, but maybe the reason I keep saying "classicism is revolution" & steff like that is that I don't exactly agree with Tim O'Brien, & I don't exactly agree that poetry about history inevitably becomes "simply" history. I do agree that if you devalue the moment of writing (when the poem, or the imagination, hits you over the head) then you won't make poetry but will get stuck on the prongs of cynical critique I outlined in previous post (maybe I almost got stuck there myself). I think there is a context even for the imagination, and Time tempers the poet's voice & silvers the plow. There is a realm of actuality & what happened is just as interesting as what's imagined. (They're almost always intertwined). - Henry gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Guertin Subject: Killian and Argento In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Someone recently posted a reference to a new book(s) by Kevin Killian called the Argento Series from Meow Books. A friend of mine is desperate to own this and local (Canadian) booksellers say they can't order it. If anyone is in the know, could they please backchannel me with direct order specs? With thanks, Carolyn ________________________________________________ Carolyn Guertin, Department of English, University of Alberta E-Mail: cguertin@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca; Tel/FAX: 403-432-2735 Website: http://www.ualberta.ca/~cguertin/Guertin.htm See the 3D Woman! http://www.ualberta.ca/~cguertin/laser/enter.htm "Memory is a capricious seamstress." -- Virginia Woolf ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 08:02:39 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: People of Color? Content-Type: text/plain Dodie wrote: >I also find offensive here that people have been bragging about the people >of color whom they know and/or have published--I mean how condescending can >you get. I think Hoa is much too nice to this list in her posts. Nobody >wants to be turned into a pet. > I wanted to take this opportunity that Dodie has given me to respond to this-- since no one else asked... Yeah, sometimes I do feel too nice-- and although intentions have been carefully explained/explored, tones of condescending creep in, talking about race is always touchy and yes, posts speaking about the diversity of one's group of friends or one's journal-- can leave me feeling, well, yucky too. And for just this pet-like reason-- I think that I wrote that it feels like taxidermy -- "and this is my prized blue nosed snarffer"-- And while it gives me stomach aches when folks talk about race in their immediate social situations, (maybe you have something, Kali, that it reminds one of the old "My best friends are X!"), this sort of discussion is necessary. And when talking about race, everyone doesn't have to know and everyone can make mistakes! (this includes me of course-- the other day with an Iranian American business owner-- I was chit-chatting and found myself wanting to validate him and his country's culture, so that he would be at ease-- and know I wasn't racist like "them"-- and started saying something about the beauty of the Arabic language --until he interupts stating that he speaks Persian) Ignorance, unfortuanatly, is easy. And to try to clear up the term "People of color" -- it may sound off to you, Sylvester Pollet-- and yes, Joe, it is *not* like the term "colored people"-- but it is an affirming term for people of color-- in the way that Kali described how it is important to her friends of color to have their ethnicity be a part of their personhood because if it isn't, it is as if their color didn't exist or as if they had become white. Finally, I have wondering over the weekend about the diverstiy on this list -- I would like to connect with the lister's of color -- could you all back channel me? No certification required! Seriously though, I want to feel less alone on the list. Not a minority, Hoa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 10:47:10 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: Re: A Note on Prejudice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit back home, send on the literature m -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:22:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: working class thread In-Reply-To: <19970929141904.7577.qmail@hotmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The "White Noise" group/school? Anyone wanna clarify? Back-channels gladly accepted if you please. I[I]I pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu I[I]I ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 09:23:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: working class thread In-Reply-To: <19970929141904.7577.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:19 AM -0700 9/29/97, Hoa Nguyen wrote: >I don't really understand why Dodie's post was read as an attack on Kali >or Joe. Could it be that Dodie was asking a *real* question of Joe? I >would like to know how he feels about belonging to the "White Noise" >group-- and I imagine that perhaps Joe would welcome the chance to talk >about his poetry activities and affiliations (?). > >I am wondering 2 things-- How come you would feel yuck published in a >"working class women journal", Dodie (a really real question-- I have >questions around this for myself in terms of other identity categories) >and secondly, how come the response to Dodie's post was a longish >defensive complaint, Kali? First of all, excuse the angry tone of my last post. I won't bore you all with what provoked it. Secondly, no, Eliza, I was not accusing you of anything, and I'm sorry if I caused you even an instant of distress. Like Dale, I was being vaguer than I should have been. Thirdly, I was never questioning Joe's credentials as working class, just asking in a rather pushy way how he felt being published as a working class writer. From Joe's post it seems like he does have some conflicts along that line. But, heh, it's hard to get published, I don't begrudge anybody for taking anything they can get. And the final point of my prelude--I haven't read Kali's response. After her performance on this list this summer I decided it best that I filter out her messages to avoid the temptation to respond to them. Now, to Hoa's point. And I have a question for you Hoa, when you spoke of the fellow at work saying they needed to diversify, I'm interested in what exactly about him saying that bothered you. I'm going to meander a response to the rest of Hoa's post, and we'll begin with a story that involves Hoa herself. When Hoa was living in San Francisco she wrote a grant, a component of which would be a reading series for younger writers of color--three readings in which she herself would read with a variety of people. She asked if Small Press Traffic would sponsor these readings and I said sure. Then Hoa moved to Texas and the grant panel was stupid and didn't award Hoa the money anyway--but I thought, why not do the reading series anyway. So I asked another poet to curate it--as part of our agreement I was *not* going to advertise the series as being about writers of color. Neither of us felt comfortable with that. One poet refused to read in the series because she did not want to be singled out as a young poet of color, advertising or no. If she was going to read for SPT she was going to read in our regular series (she eventually did read in the regular series). And then the curator decided that she didn't feel comfortable curating a series about people of color, so I said, do what ever you want, and she opened up the series. This experience caused much reflection on my part, these women's refusal to be institutionalized as women of color. While class and race are not the same thing in America, if I think of myself as working class (and it wasn't that long ago since that was sexy, it hasn't been that long since feminism and the class struggle were issues on people's agenda) and imagine a similar institution of myself, I feel that I can approach some beginning of understanding of their positions. I've been reading the history of freak shows--the exoticization of difference and displaying it to reinforce the normality of the audience. I can't help but see parallels here between publishing people as belonging to a group defined as marginal, racial, class, etc., how that reinforces that group/person's position of otherness--and the status quo of a norm, as base of white middle classness against which this otherness is projected. As far as who receives social compassion, groups come and go. It's not cool to be racist these days, but not so long ago it was. Do I think that a new level of humanity has been reached? No. Look at the scathing condemnation of people who are overweight/ or public figures who don't look anorexic. I think that what should be examined is this human impulse to define an other who reinforces the group collectivity, normality. Thinking of an article I read in last week's food section. It was on packing exciting lunches for your child. In the article several dieticians were asked what they packed for their own children. On dietician said she packed potato chips because children pay attention to what's in one another's lunch boxes, and if her daughter had a weird lunch it would cost her socially. So here we have the makings of a new marginalized group, little girls who do not carry potato chips in their lunches. A silly example, but a very real issue to the little girls who don't have potato chips and are dumped on. As far as friendships go, I don't think that someone has to speak of somebody as "My African American friend" in order to not deny their ethnicity. My first husband was Puerto Rican but I've never called him my Puerto Rican husband--I never denied that he was Puerto Rican either. We're still in touch--and a few years ago he went back to Puerto Rico to live, hadn't lived there since he was three. So he was in town a while ago and we went out for coffee and I asked him what it was like, living in Puerto Rico again, expecting some glorious report of bonding with his roots, etc. His response: "There's too much bureacracy there." It's so easy to be reductive, to pigeonhole people. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:45:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: People of Color? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And to try to clear up the term "People of color" -- it may sound off to >you, Sylvester Pollet-- and yes, Joe, it is *not* like the term "colored >people"-- but it is an affirming term for people of color-- in the way >that Kali described how it is important to her friends of color to have >their ethnicity be a part of their personhood because if it isn't, it is >as if their color didn't exist or as if they had become white. Hello, Hoa Nguyen! I understand that use of the term, I just don't like it & don't use it myself. I am a person of color, in my estimation, a sort of nicer color now than in March, when I tend to fade to a greyish white. Tanner now. When people, students say, want their heritage acknowledged, I try to honor that with sensitivity and particularity, so that I don't call a Passamaquoddy a Micmac. It seems clear to me that many terms used comfortably by people within a group to refer to themselves can not be used that way by outsiders. Of course, the language is constantly shifting, & it's our job as poets to push it into better places. I hope I'm not sounding cantankerous here--I was a bit yesterday, after half a day chainsawing firewood and half a day reading student papers. ( Not an academic, just a poet/part-timer, trying to get through the winter.) I think this sort of discussion really helps, by the way, so thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:44:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: People of Color? In-Reply-To: <19970929150239.25509.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" this is a terrifically engaging thread, thanks y'all. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:17:23 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: walsh, prejudice, etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Have been following this discussion with interest, and am working it into my article on Walsh's poetry (along with that of Maurice Scully and Geoffrey Squires). If anyone's interested in my $.02, it will be in the next Notre Dame Review (info at http://www.nd.edu/~english/ndr/ndr.htm). Can't plug that magazine enough (and not just because they let me review books -- there'll be a new Creeley poem in the next issue, too). Bob -- Robert Archambeau Department of English Lake Forest College Lake Forest, IL 60045 http://www.lfc.edu/~archamb/ Time ere poems Time ere plighted troth Nor forward glance nor backward gaze at signs none --Brian Coffey ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:22:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Syntactics #1 available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The really exciting new poetry magazine Syntactics has arrived. As part of the almost microscopic Atlanta poetry mafia, I'm posting an announcement..(on behalf of editor John Lowther, who isn't net-connected at the moment). Issue #1 features Avelino de Araujo, Sheila Murphy, Peter Ganick, Stephen Dignazio, Jim Leftwich, Ray DiPalma, Standard Schaefer, Matt Hill, Spencer Selby, Fanny Howe, Pierre Joris and Joe Napora. It comes with a broadside which is a theoretical reflection on the pantoum and its possible extentions by Lowther, and also a theory section with discussions by Sheila, Jim and John of aspects of their poetics. Graphics, poetry, design and the rest are really nice. The issue costs $4 which I think is a steal (#2 will be more). John got the the issue from the printer the day before yesterday, so copies to contributors and subscribers are going out as we (er, as I) speak, or type. syntactics Box 1381 Decatur, GA 30031-1381 --Mark P. Atlanta ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 11:49:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: Re: working class thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dodie et al - The idea of there being a working class magazine that would be interested in my work because of my background is intriguing to me - Would that it were so - In fact maybe Michael Amnason's Ottotole was that in some ways, though of course not restricted to us working class types - And as I recall Michael's definition required current and not just past working class credentials - Underpaid non-profit art work being defined as hopelessly middle class - I was sorry to have missed the SPT reading Friday which I heard was great - Rodrigo Toscano and Carol Lee Sanchez read here at the Poetry Center last Thursday and were very good - the audience (mostly students) clapped wildly after each of Rodrigo's poems - Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:20:32 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Re: working class thread Content-Type: text/plain > >Now, to Hoa's point. And I have a question for you Hoa, when you spoke of >the fellow at work saying they needed to diversify, I'm interested in what >exactly about him saying that bothered you. > Dodie-- thanks for the long response/illustrative anecdote to my question about how you feel re: identity groupings. Informative and thought provoking. and to your question, I wish he said that we "need to diversify". Rather he said "We need more minorities" and the statement had everything to do with market positioning (attracting clients) and appearances ("we are a progressive firm: witness our "minorities"). I take issue not only with this, (and its concomittant patronizing "tone") but with the word "minority". As I had signed my post, I do not consider myself a "minority". The word, while trying to describe the economic-sideline status of many people of color, sounds like it is describing population numbers, which confuses people. (Like the white person that told me he was a minority too because "I am a minority on the east side bus to work") But the trouble is, I think the above is unfair-- I mean, here the employer was trying to acknowledge a lack of diversity-- and suggesting a solution for it, and all I can do is feel strange and wish he would go about it with more sensitivity and panache... ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 12:49:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: stereotypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In some contexts stereotypes serve a different function than those mentioned heretofore. I'm a bit hesitant to bring this up, not because I may be seen as throwing fat on the fire, but because I'm not sure how well it fits into this discussion. But here goes. I'm a New Yorker. Some years ago I bought a house in a working class neighborhood in Brooklyn. Ethnicity there was a matter of strata. The bedrock level was Irish Catholic, overlain by Italian Catholic and various Slavic and Baltic types, all (except the Irish) no more than two generations from Ellis Island. On top of this were more recent strata from Puerto Rico, some Blacks (give me a better word) and a very few jews (Jews--mostly recent Russian immigrants--lived in large numbers in the next neighborhood, and Hasids beyond them). I was the only jew and the only college-educated middle class type on my block. The different ethnic identities remained intact, although we all lived interspersed among each other. It was only in the teenage group that inter-group dating and marriage had begun, but these didn't seem to create many problems. I detected no particular group animosities, and I've got a pretty good sniffer for these things, but there was a lot of casual stereotyping, often voiced between neighbors, which seemed to function as a set of hypotheses--"I can expect certain behaviors from x because jews (italians, blacks, etc.) are like that. Oh, he didn't conform to expectations? That's interesting"--on the way to greater intimacy. I'm not suggesting that as the stereotyping towards this or that person softened the sense of difference disappeared--that was always there--we remained, across the differences, exotic to each other, but not dangerous. There were, in fact, real cultural differences. The stereotyping, in fact, helped to keep the peace in this most peaceful neighborhood--it was a way of telling oneself not to be offended by this or that behavior. It was so important that if someone's ethnicity was not immediately apparent one would be asked directly, as I was by the stoop-sitters who monitored the street. I realized that I had been doing this all my life. Growing up in polyglot and polyethnic New York I had depended on ethnic markers as navigational buoys. Interestingly, my wife, raised in Asheville, N.C., will miss the most obvious markers of difference between white folks--at home there were only three groups, black, and, distinguishable, at the very least, by accent, hillbilly and other white. Absent the distinction of accent all white folks tend to be, for her, the same, and I see her bumping up against ethnic differences that didn't exist in her environment all the time. She's probably, by the way, the least racist, least bigoted person I have ever known, but a few stereotypes would really make her life easier. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 13:14:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone on the list know of a good French bookstore in LA? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:10:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970929124908.007004c0@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i find this type of thing fascinating. i am often (as you must be kali) asked about my ethnicity, i think because of the combination of my name (which could be number of different things), the kind of work i do and the fact that i look (and am, according to current definitions) white. being jewish though makes for an interesting twist in the cloth. it's hard to convey to West coasters and midwesterners the reality that in my hometown (boston and environs) it was standard during my childhood and adolescence (and possibly even now) for certain country clubs etc to officially exclude blacks and jews. when explaining why that meant i didn't belong to the institutions that my classmates did, i've been stopped and asked, "you look pretty white to me, so what's the problem?" as if they hadn't heard, or couldn't process, the "and jews" part of what i'd said. it just isn't part of how they divide up the world. the christian majority is not just a majority, it is the only reality (in fact i just learned that the Minnesota Humanities Commission will not fund events that happen on Sunday mornings which i think borders on the unconstitutional). and then jews (and nonjews) want to know what i'm doing w/ a name like maria. iv'e been fascinated and amused by inter-ethnic joshing among people for whom it's also a very charged issue. a former boyfriend, who is ethiopian, doesn't hesitate to characterize people by their ethnicity (Amharas have good cuisine, Gurages are small-time hustlers, etc). in ethiopia, much blood has been shed over which ethnic group is in power, and yet it seems that, as you say, mark, there's also a level at which ethnic teasing can have a benign innoculative effect. i was shocked but also amused the first time he teasingly called me a "sickly little yid." it was impossible to be offended; the shock was because no american i knew would ever ever say anything like that, even in jest, and in fact, when an american christian friend did try to tease me once about jews and money, i got very upset; i didn't realize she was just teasing. (i'm specifying ethnicity and religion here not to show off that i have an american christian friend, but to demonstrate how the fact of her american christianity affected how i heard her). (i'm also not trying to usurp a discussion about people of color by piping up with a disingenuous jewish me-tooism; rather wanting to talk, like mark, about the different ways these work contextually) i've also heard Native Americans from different tribes/nations tease each other, and there are some deep-seated historical tensions between some of the teasers that i've heard. i live in pc land here (the affirmative action commissioner, or something like that, of st paul, was forced to step down a few years ago because there were some ethnic jokes told at a banquet he presided over) so i try to learn and not get too caught up in public controversy (though i did risk my job once by playing lenny bruce's "how to relax your colored friends at parties" in a class on "minority" literature; the subject is so charged that any irony was lost on my students; i'll never do that again). At 12:49 PM -0700 9/29/97, mark weiss wrote: >In some contexts stereotypes serve a different function than those >mentioned heretofore. I'm a bit hesitant to bring this up, not because I >may be seen as throwing fat on the fire, but because I'm not sure how well >it fits into this discussion. But here goes. > >I'm a New Yorker. Some years ago I bought a house in a working class >neighborhood in Brooklyn. Ethnicity there was a matter of strata. The >bedrock level was Irish Catholic, overlain by Italian Catholic and various >Slavic and Baltic types, all (except the Irish) no more than two >generations from Ellis Island. On top of this were more recent strata from >Puerto Rico, some Blacks (give me a better word) and a very few jews >(Jews--mostly recent Russian immigrants--lived in large numbers in the next >neighborhood, and Hasids beyond them). I was the only jew and the only >college-educated middle class type on my block. The different ethnic >identities remained intact, although we all lived interspersed among each >other. It was only in the teenage group that inter-group dating and >marriage had begun, but these didn't seem to create many problems. > >I detected no particular group animosities, and I've got a pretty good >sniffer for these things, but there was a lot of casual stereotyping, often >voiced between neighbors, which seemed to function as a set of >hypotheses--"I can expect certain behaviors from x because jews (italians, >blacks, etc.) are like that. Oh, he didn't conform to expectations? That's >interesting"--on the way to greater intimacy. I'm not suggesting that as >the stereotyping towards this or that person softened the sense of >difference disappeared--that was always there--we remained, across the >differences, exotic to each other, but not dangerous. There were, in fact, >real cultural differences. The stereotyping, in fact, helped to keep the >peace in this most peaceful neighborhood--it was a way of telling oneself >not to be offended by this or that behavior. It was so important that if >someone's ethnicity was not immediately apparent one would be asked >directly, as I was by the stoop-sitters who monitored the street. > >I realized that I had been doing this all my life. Growing up in polyglot >and polyethnic New York I had depended on ethnic markers as navigational >buoys. Interestingly, my wife, raised in Asheville, N.C., will miss the >most obvious markers of difference between white folks--at home there were >only three groups, black, and, distinguishable, at the very least, by >accent, hillbilly and other white. Absent the distinction of accent all >white folks tend to be, for her, the same, and I see her bumping up against >ethnic differences that didn't exist in her environment all the time. She's >probably, by the way, the least racist, least bigoted person I have ever >known, but a few stereotypes would really make her life easier. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:33:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: stereotypes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some of my best friends are stereotypes, and they're not a bit like that! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:45:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I guess it's because I'm a straight white guy, but I've always suspected that the tension put _on the left_ about race and sex has been a divide and conquer strategy _by the right_ to divert attention from the real issue which is always money and power -- as long as money and power are God, or whatever god-position-substitute we're flavoring our breakfast with now. Who cares how we talk to eachother about these things? Are we doing so well we can afford to ignore the baiters? and what they're taking from our pockets as we're arguing? Signed, October 1929 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:29:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Michael J. Kelleher" Subject: just buffalo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------533394C668EB701664F8D231" --------------533394C668EB701664F8D231 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poet(ic)s in Buffalo, Sunday October 5 at 2 p.m. SUSAN HOWE & LEE ANN BROWN will be reading as part of just buffalo's Writer's at Work Series at HALLWALL'S, followed by a book signing and public dinner (dinner location tba at reading). Susan will be introduced by Alicia Cohen, Lee Ann by Ben Friedlander. There will be a combined party for Lee Ann Brown and the opening of Anya Lewin's new gallery, Cornershop @ 82 Lafayette (at Dewitt, near Niagra) at 8pm on Saturday, October 4. If you need more info, call me at 882-8982. See you there. Mike --------------533394C668EB701664F8D231 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poet(ic)s in Buffalo,
                                             Sunday
                                            October 5
                                            at 2 p.m.

                                         SUSAN HOWE
                                                &
                                        LEE ANN BROWN
 

will be reading as part of  just buffalo's Writer's at Work Series at HALLWALL'S, followed by a book signing and public dinner (dinner location tba at reading).

Susan will be introduced by Alicia Cohen, Lee Ann by Ben Friedlander. 

There will be a combined party for Lee Ann Brown and the opening of Anya Lewin's new gallery, Cornershop @ 82 Lafayette (at Dewitt, near Niagra) at 8pm on Saturday, October 4. If you need more info, call me at 882-8982. See you there.

Mike --------------533394C668EB701664F8D231-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 14:41:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Working Class anthologies Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Renny Christopher forwarded me this list of working class anthologies, in case any POETICS member is interested in following up. Renny would also be interested in hearing from poets who want to talk about working class issues. Her email address is: rchristo@toto.csustan.edu Coles, Nicholas and Peter Oresick. For a Living: The Poetry of Work. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1995. Dews, C. L. Barney and Carolyn Leste Law, ed. This Fine Place So Far From Home: Voices of Academics from the Working Class. Philadelphia: Temple University Press, 1995. Oresick, Peter and Nicholas Coles. Working Classics: Poems on the Industrial Life. Urbana: University of Illinois Press, 1990. Wayman, Tom, ed. Paperwork: An Anthology. Madeira Park, BC: Harbour Publishing, 1991. Zandy, Janet, ed. Calling Home: Working-Class Women's Writings: An Anthology. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press, 1990. Zandy, Janet, ed. Liberating Memory: Our Work and Our Working-Class Consciousness. New Brunswick, NJ: Rutgers University Press, 1995. Best, Kali Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:42:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: working class thread In-Reply-To: <19970929192033.9569.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hoa Nguyen wrote: >But the trouble is, I think the above is unfair-- I mean, here the >employer was trying to acknowledge a lack of diversity-- and suggesting >a solution for it, and all I can do is feel strange and wish he would go >about it with more sensitivity and panache... hoa, i understand your hesitance. i've had similar reactions to mucky-mucks going on about diversity. as i'm sure most of us have, i've seen an awful lot of these statements around our various institutions, i always get the feeling that the push comes from an interest in being diversified for the sake of gaining points politically, rather than a genuine desire to see any other perspectives (a particular perspective or just others in general) find a place within an institution. and i always read 'diversify' in that context as meaning "we need to hire more people that don't look like me and the white board of directors, but are eager to say the same things we've always said". eryque ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:08:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: working class red Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" there seems to be a real tendency here to conflate the "managing diversity" types, recognizable to all who inhabit large bureaucratic structures, with those who would ask deeply critical questions about the ways that we speak of race and ethnicity -- a _lot_ of work has been done in this area which might shed some much needed light -- since we're exchanging biblios, here are some worth inspecting: Multiculturalism: A Critical Reader, ed. David Theo Goldberg Race Consciousness, ed. Judith Fossett and Jeffrey Tucker Comparative American Identities, ed. Hortense Spiller The Bounds of Race, ed. Dominick LaCapra Racial Formations/Critical Transformations, E. San Juan Jr. Race, Nation, Class, Balibar and Wallerstein Manifest Manners, Gerald Vizenor there are many more, natch.,,,, but these contain some particularly fruitful debates -- now, if you really want to see some right wing divide and conquer -- try the Threnstroms" (sp?) new book ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:15:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eryque Gleason Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i haunt around occassionally on a couple of bbs's, with the username Jose Jimenez, no one told me that i'd need a handle the first time i logged on, i lifted the name from the comedian's routine (it was reflex, thinking for a different name never occurred to me). it seems that most of my contemporaries are far too young to remember the comedian (in fact, i only know about him from the space movie "the right stuff", so i spose i should say that they're too young to remember "the right stuff"). during most sessions people will send messages in spanish, then get offended when i try in my best, hacked spanish (two semesters in high school i try to explain) that i don't speak their language. another lot will ask what nationality i am, and get pissed when i say "american". my mother's ancestors came from norway about 150 years ago, my father's from the british isles 100 or so (so you can see that i'm white as hell, saying i'm "american" means something much different to people with different ancestry). i had one hell of a point when i started. forigive me, my blood sugar's getting low. i'll let you all find the particular relevance best, eryque for those of you that wonder, my mother spells my name 'eric', unless she's patronizing me. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:22:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >i've also heard Native Americans from different tribes/nations tease each >other, and there are some deep-seated historical tensions between some of >the teasers that i've heard. Here's a story about that. A black friend from NY was visiting me when I lived in Tucson. It was Martin Luther King day, and this was a few years ago, when Arizona was the last holdout against instituting the holiday. As both Kali and Maria point out, race remains a topic even between close friends of different colors, whether in the form or teasing, challenge, curiosity, or passing interest. My friend asked how come Arizona was so backwards. I acknowledged that there is a fair amount of racism in Arizona (is the Pope Polish?), but I thought that another factor might be that Arizona is (was then, at least) only two percent black, which meant that there was less pressure for the holiday than in other places. So he asked why there wasn't a day consecrated to a native american, say Geronimo. What an idea. I don't think he knew any native americans, but I should have known better. I ran the idea past a Navajo friend, who waxed linguistically colorful for a few minutes. To summarize: "We hate Geronimo. We hate Apaches. They're all horsethieves and murderers, and they don't bathe enough." What if, I suggested, we picked someone from a tribe that doesn't exist in Arizona? Did my friend think a Hiawatha day would fly? He wasn't as amused as I was. Arizona, by the way, has since joined the rest of us in celebrating Martin Luther King Day. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 15:31:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: My name . . . Jose Jimenez Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I believe the comedian in question was Bill Dana -- does anybody know if that's right -- which masking adds a few more levels to the ironies ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:23:55 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ralph Wessman Subject: Re: The Paradox Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick note linking Robert Drake's rhetorical question (... why start another mag that duplicates existing?), kali tal's post "... if I can't talk about poetry in terms of love ... I figure why talk about it at all" and joe amato's response "I would only add that the love of justice has something to do with all of this." I agree with you Robert, to consider establishing a magazine duplicating another seems little more than replication of style and formula. Nothing wrong with that, but there can be so much more. Once a publishing endeavour / magazine effectively becomes an extension of yourself, opens up avenues of personal expression and development, allows you to give voice to what moves you, fuels the capacity to be more imaginatively responsive, more functionally human - it becomes far removed from replication. For instance (and perhaps I misinterpret joe's words "love of justice"), a small press publisher is in a position to encourage public comment on a range of topics / issues. My point though is that there's nothing too intuitive about "taking up issues" for the sake of it (doesn't that ... uh oh ... lead to the stultifying / conforming aspects of political correctness?), and there's nothing too intuitive about taking on writing from people / groups / perspectives outside your experience simply because it's pc to do so ... seems to me like a skin graft, part of you but ... is it really? And it's not the emotions attendant in exercising power that are interesting, what's intuitive about that? But if there's enough space and freedom within the publishing activity to allow you to be moved by the ... culturally diverse? ... or where a (subjective) sense of justice is brought into play ... then, integrity ... remains. Hopefully.... Regards, Ralph Wessman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:49:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Book announcement: Maggie Jaffe's How The West Was One Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the midst of this lates discussion, a new book has been born. Maggie Jaffe, _How The West Was One_, with art by Deborah Small. 96pp, perfectbound, 5.5" x 8.5", 4-color cover, lots of beautiful illustrations in the text. $12, plus $1.50 shipping and handling. ISBN 1-885215-19-3. Order from Viet Nam Generation, Inc., PO Box 13746, Tucson, AZ 85732-3746. "_How The West Was One_ lifts the veil of history and reveals the corruption, greed, and arrogance that hide behind noble-sounding phrases: Westward Expansion, Manifest Destiny, the Monroe Doctrine, the Good Neighbor Policy, and the New World Order. Maggie Jaffe's poignant poetry transcends propaganda and didacticism and shows the impossibility of separating the political from the personal." --Jon Forrest Glade, _Photographs of the Jungle_ "In _How The West Was One_, Maggie Jaffe, one of the most clear-voiced, clear-sighted poets of our time, exposes the truth behind the media presentations which shape young minds into the bog of uncritical, unemotional, cultural and racially supremacist thinking. This book should be in motel rooms, instead of Gideons Bible, to help citizens see the tangled web they helped to weave." --Belinda Subraman, _The Gulf War: Many Perspectives_ Here's a selection from _How the West Was One_. Unfortunately, the email medium doesn't allow me to reproduce the typography or artwork: Imperial Breadfruit Though imported from the South Seas to the West Indies as "cheap food for slaves," _Joy of Cooking_ describes breadfruit as "the most beautiful of tropical trees, with a highly romantic history." "Why it's breadfruit," said the Bounty's Captain Bligh to Fletcher Christian while circumnavigating the globe, "for the greater glory of us all." Christian and Company preferred women to glory: their breasts like breadfruit. The Bounty brought the Pox & mirrors to Tahiti: perhaps the locus for _Joy's_ "romanticisism." When they mutinied [floggings, thirst, rancid meat] "unruly" crews threw the "sacred saplings" overboard, even if breadfruit prevented scurvy. Years later, Darwin collected breadfruit from Tahiti when the Beagle "touched" its shores. Though _Origin of the Species_ seemed to justify it, after Brazil he would write: "Thank God I shall never again visit a slave country." While Darwin became a bestseller Melville's critique of Empire didn't make him a crowd pleaser. Known as "the man who lived with cannibals" for the rest of his literary life. In _Typee, Or a Peep at Polynesian Life_ he lists exotic breadfruit recipes-- none of them appear in _Joy_: Kokoo (k'aku): roasted breadfruit pounded & mixed with coconut milk. Amar (ma): a tart cake baked from fermented breadfruit. Poee-poee (popoi): a pudding made by adding water to the former. Breadfruit (Artocarpus altilis) has dark-green, irregular leaves with globe-like "seductive-tasting fruit," roasted or steamed with butter, salt & pepper. Because it's fart-producing, ginger tea taken with breadfruit's the best remedy. To guard against devil hunger breadfruit's planted for each new-born Tahitian. If an immature tree's cut down, it's equivalent to murder. In the West Indies breadfruit was believed to cure Drapetomania: "a disease known by a slave's excessive love of freedom," whose symptoms were feigning sicknes, slowing down, running off, axing Massa in his alabaster chamber. ---Maggie Jaffe Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 17:06:46 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: People of Color? Content-Type: text/plain >Hello, Hoa Nguyen! I understand that use of the term, I just don't like it >& don't use it myself. I am a person of color, in my estimation, a sort of >nicer color now than in March, when I tend to fade to a greyish white. >Tanner now. When people, students say, want their heritage acknowledged, I >try to honor that with sensitivity and particularity, so that I don't call >a Passamaquoddy a Micmac. It seems clear to me that many terms used >comfortably by people within a group to refer to themselves can not be used >that way by outsiders. Of course, the language is constantly shifting, & >it's our job as poets to push it into better places. I hope I'm not >sounding cantankerous here--I was a bit yesterday, after half a day >chainsawing firewood and half a day reading student papers. ( Not an >academic, just a poet/part-timer, trying to get through the winter.) I >think this sort of discussion really helps, by the way, so thanks. So why don't you provoke something that helps instead of implying that references coined by particular groups other than your own make you uncomfortable? ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:01:53 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Social Tangles Content-Type: text/plain There are two elements in these discussions I provoked. One is the need to represent diversity through poetic channels. Another is to satisfy one’s own demands, whatever they be, for formal poetic experimentation. These are elements I engage myself with also. My own idealistic dementia desires greater personal freedom for people of all backgrounds, whatever they be. This is a social concern that I am sympathetic to, due to personal experiences, state of mind, and because I prefer greater freedom over its opposite and wish to do unto others as they do unto me, etc. My other concern, however, is artistic, aesthetic. And that aesthetic is not socially based. My understanding of art has been influenced, for better or worse, by the amazingly compact but lucid contributions to this subject by Theodor Adorno. Others, many others, both living and dead, have influenced my thought as well. But Adorno addresses art with a compact clarity I appreciate. Anyway, for me, this kind of influence represents what I think of as a social exchange. And these exchanges happen all the time. They even happen on this list. Discussions of race, gender, sexual preference -- all of this and much more, including the overt power structures of economy under which we all live -- this is all socially necessary to argue, discuss, and debate. What I disagree with is the now accepted fact that art can contain, or represent in some way, the same sense of social urgency as a conversation, say, or discussions like those on this list. Art’s power is not in what it addresses, but in what it is capable of reflecting. Its power is mimetically traced to something in nature, something in us as human beings. I don’t mean nature as birds and bees either. I mean deeper elements of predation, hunger, desire, and * thought*, which is actually the body’s tool. What I sense as false in poetry is often only an over statement of social urgency, expressed in terms that deny the very being from which such formal gestures originate. Often, poetry represses the humorous, self-conscious impulse from which we articulate our social desires. At times, ‘experiemental’ forms, the ones, perhaps Kevin publishes in Mirage, though he doesn’t necessarily like them, appear inhuman to me because they repel any human sympathy I might be capable of lending the poem. I often always agree with the social cause inherent in such poems. But the inhumane disregard for the reader strikes me as an ingenuine gesture on the poet’s part. Because, as the poet strives to communicate social injustice, he or she alienates those who might otherwise support it. I realize humanism itself is suspect of foul play, and many have provided useful critiques regarding its values. So perhaps this is where my differences lie. Without being a philosopher, I don’t know. I became a poet so that I would not have to make linear sense. I wanted to invigorate and create. Out of a sense of self-defense, however, today I will attempt to balance my more playful impulses. Smart, socially active poetry is often void of emotional cohesion, or even conflict. The lyric, as it was practiced in this language for centuries, has been replaced with the sentimental suburban barbecue flavors of that bland, relatively unengaged work of poets in the University journals, the New Yorker and Poetry. I’m really not attentive to that poetry in a way that qualifies me to speak of it at greater depth, so I won’t push it. But to me, it’s rather, excuse the term, *useless* as a means of expanding my own sense of poetics. Another group that is more or less consistent in terms of form would be what I assume many of us practice, though I don’t presume all of us. It has been influenced by a variety of well-meaning and compelling formal methods and theories. Many, but not all, Language Poets have careers of some kind in academia and their influence has spread to new generations of writers, such as my own. I will be reductive and say that their concerns are, as I once heard Harriet Mullin say, with the trinity of Class, Consciousness and Society. Many small journals and books publish poetry that, to my mind, adheres to this social trinity in terms of content. Its formal methodology is as diverse as the poets who practice this kind of poetics. But I would say that writers engaged in this activity do share certain elements in common. At the expense of sounding like Mark Wallace, I’ll enumerate. 1) This Language-influenced poetry lacks a unified subject of expression, ie, the poem’s voice is fragmented, or composed of many voices. It is paratactic and employed as a formal element. I suppose this is due to some mimetic sense of same disunity in the culture at large, and is potentially a valid expression of such. 2) It is very smart and ironic, but it lacks a greater sense of humor and a more subtle intelligence. 3) It is conscious of limits but doesn’t know when to end a poem 4) It distributes a wide range of images throughout a poem, but without an apparent purpose. It is unable to form recognizable patterns and therefore confuses, increases the human distance of which I spoke earlier, and takes the power of interpretation away from the reader by not giving said reader a leg to stand on. 5) It is highly moral, in a tradition that would be in league with Jonathan Edwards if Edwards had known less about good prosody and efficient diction. 6) It treats language as substance, without the necessary human conviction behind anything but the gesture of the experiment. In addition, a big problem with this type of aesthetic practice is that it is generally accepted by many that one does not have to like a poem to want to print it, read it, or do anything other than make paper airplanes out of it. The social content is well liked, but the poems themselves usually fall flat. I don’t see how any of the above benefits social causes in any way. Whereas, lyric poetry, by recognizing suffering, employing language to heighten sensitivity or sympathy, and appealing to the humane impulses of the reader was able to address similar social issues. But it contained the added depth of emotional suffering or joy, pleasure or pointed barbs aimed to provoke bourgeois pain. An aesthetics charged with the conviction of the self to confront social pressures invigorates and opens readers to the concerns the poet, who is really a cultural antennae, is conscious of and lives with in an awakened state of life. There are many poets writing today who fulfill my demands. There are many who don’t. Unlike Hoa, I believe strongly in sides, because they will be drawn for you, or over you, unless you yourself take one and follow it to the bitter end. I don’t mean to imply, however, that once you’ve been awakened to your own foolishness of pursuit it is impossible to switch sides. But you should be conscious of where you are standing, however uncomfortable that place may be. I guess all I meant by this long-winded diatribe was that sometimes social issues cannot be represented by poetry but they can emanate from poems. Sometimes good poetry has nothing to do with social subjects but society is affected by what a poem offers. This bickering over who you use to represent your magazine is necessary. But it is also equally necessary to know what your magazines do to reflect a diversity of worlds both malignant and benign. Inspire or incite, but don’t allow complacency to infect. And judging by what I see, and by my own small habits of life, that is easy to do. Dale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 20:24:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" good point jordan, but it's still useful to hash things out; it's not always divide and conquer, sometimes it's (used to be) called "consciousness-raising" tho some might think "consciousness-razing" more accurate... At 5:45 PM -0500 9/29/97, Jordan Davis wrote: >I guess it's because I'm a straight white guy, but I've always suspected >that the tension put _on the left_ about race and sex has been a divide and >conquer strategy _by the right_ to divert attention from the real issue >which is always money and power -- as long as money and power are God, or >whatever god-position-substitute we're flavoring our breakfast with now. >Who cares how we talk to eachother about these things? Are we doing so well >we can afford to ignore the baiters? and what they're taking from our >pockets as we're arguing? > >Signed, >October 1929 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 18:33:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It occurred to me, while secretly plotting the overthrow of the San Diego Mass Transit System (it's important to start small), that we're likely to know what a Molotov Cocktail is long after the Soviet Union, or for that matter the man himself, has been forgotten. A peculiar kind of immortality, for short time, anyway. I wonder what other instruments of destruction memorialize once-living humans. Who were Sten and Gattling? Any other items for this list? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:26:08 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark weiss wrote: > > It occurred to me, while secretly plotting the overthrow of the San Diego > Mass Transit System (it's important to start small), that we're likely to > know what a Molotov Cocktail is long after the Soviet Union, or for that > matter the man himself, has been forgotten. A peculiar kind of immortality, > for short time, anyway. I wonder what other instruments of destruction > memorialize once-living humans. Who were Sten and Gattling? > Any other items for this list? Well, Henry Shrapnel (1761-1842) comes to mind: the British artillery officer who pushed ballistics beyond club & concussion. And the Immelman turn in dogfighting [perhaps a vanishing mode of warfare], after its inventor, Max Immelman (1890-1916). More? Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:54:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark writes: >It occurred to me, while secretly plotting the overthrow of the San Diego >Mass Transit System (it's important to start small), that we're likely to >know what a Molotov Cocktail is long after the Soviet Union, or for that >matter the man himself, has been forgotten. A peculiar kind of immortality, >for short time, anyway. I wonder what other instruments of destruction >memorialize once-living humans. Who were Sten and Gattling? >Any other items for this list? Richard Jordan Gatling, 1818-1903. Mainly an agricultural inventor, known for inventing a handcranked precursor to the machine gun. Offered it to the Union army, but they didn't take him up until 1866, after the war. Sten was actually two people and one country: _S_heppard and _T_urpin and _En_gland. Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:14:15 +0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rebecca Weldon Subject: The name and the paradox Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I find this discussion remarkable and think, only in America. I live in a country where the thousand shades of skin all have names. Where the opening conversation between strangers is a frank exploration of social origins and status. Where people speak a different LANGUAGE depending upon with whom they are speaking: royalty, high ranking bureaucrats and socialites, teachers, peers, employees and servants. I won't even broach the issues of foreign daughters-in-law. The privileged Thai living in the United States must have had the shock of their life when they discovered that they were people of color. Perhaps the American melting pot is distilling a global method living with equality and justice for all; we certainly can use some boiling over here. Hey, I'm raising three children in this mess. I just want to say that you've come a long way and you're not back at square one because someone wants to be or is IDENTIFIED. Also, I'd like to highlight the benefits of an attitude of moderation, it is helpful when discussion is in danger of becoming conflict. Moderation is an expression of caring, particularly appropriate to this group of passionate and caring people. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 21:16:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Weapons named after people & military slang In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19970929183353.006a0b04@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It occurred to me, while secretly plotting the overthrow of the San Diego >Mass Transit System (it's important to start small), that we're likely to >know what a Molotov Cocktail is long after the Soviet Union, or for that >matter the man himself, has been forgotten. A peculiar kind of immortality, >for short time, anyway. I wonder what other instruments of destruction >memorialize once-living humans. Who were Sten and Gattling? >Any other items for this list? Gee, I love this stuff. These refs can be found in _War Slang_, by Paul Dickson. Garand: M1 rifle, named after John Garand. (WWII) General Grant: army tank (WWII) General Lee: army tank (WWII) Jack Johnson: a big shell, usually the German 17" (WWI) Sam Browne: military belt named after Gen. Sir Samuel Joseph Browne (WWI) Sherman necktie: named after Gen. Sherman; twisted iron rail used to disable Southern railroads in the Civil War In the Immelman category, see: Balbo: enormous flight formation named after Italian general Italo Balbo-- the one in the last scene of lots of WWII flicks Lufberry circle and Lufberry show, maneuvers attributed to American ace Raoul Lufberry (WWI) Weapons named after women: Aunt Jemima: explosive mixed with flour (WWII) Betsy the Sniper: nickname for 155mm American cannon (WWI) Big Bertha: German siege gun (WWI), named after Bertha Antoinette Krupp (yes, of *those* Krupps) von Bohlen und Halbach. The guns fired "Bertha pills." Bertha also came in "little" form, as a "105". black Maria: high explosive shell allegedly named after an African American boarding house owner in Boston (WWI) bouncing Betty: the everpopular antipersonnel mine (Vietnam) coughing Clara: heavy artillery gun (WWII) Dolly Parton: version of Soviet T-72 tank used by Iraqis. Had a rounded turret that reminded soldiers of the singer... (Gulf War) hissing Jenny: large shell (WWI) Maggie: magnetic mine (WWII) peewee Matilda: small tank (WWII) Rosalie: slang for bayonet (WWI) Howitzers came in "grandma" and "mother" sizes (WWI) There's something very compelling and immediate about military slang. It's often stripped directly from pop culture. John Wayne was the operational verb for heroic stupidity in the Viet Nam war; it shifted to Rambo in the Gulf. Some soldiers in VN called the country (and the war) The Brown Disneyland or Six Flags Over Nothing. Soldiers in the Gulf (especially the navy) started calling it Wallyworld. The multi- level analysis implicit in claiming that a soldier missing-in-action has "gone Elvis" is hard to match, equalled only by that astonishing new term to describe the media war: Schwarzkrieg. Kali Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 22:55:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Felix Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Mark writes: > >>It occurred to me, while secretly plotting the overthrow of the San Diego >>Mass Transit System (it's important to start small), that we're likely to >>know what a Molotov Cocktail is long after the Soviet Union, or for that >>matter the man himself, has been forgotten. A peculiar kind of immortality, >>for short time, anyway. I wonder what other instruments of destruction >>memorialize once-living humans. Who were Sten and Gattling? >>Any other items for this list? > >Richard Jordan Gatling, 1818-1903. Mainly an agricultural inventor, known >for inventing a handcranked precursor to the machine gun. Offered it to >the Union army, but they didn't take him up until 1866, after the war. The world's not likely to forget Kalashnikov's (sp?) name any time soon. There was an article in the Chicago Tribune recently abt him -- how he was never recompensed for his invention by the soviets. Patents don't carry much weight in non capitalist societies. Joel Felix ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:39:00 -0400 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: new Essex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE Essex -- (1/1, Spring 1997; 1/2, Summer/Fall 1997) Tailspin Press, 42 Essex Street, Buffalo NY, 14213. Subscriptions $20.00 (4 issues). Edited by Scott Pound and William R. Howe. Meanwhile Essex is forging ahead on the verbovisual front.=20 Again, variety: of media--laserprint rubberstamp xeroxographic-- and materials--mailinglabels foundtext snips imagetexts morphs impactedscrawl braincandy. And no surer was I that I had Essex 1/1 in a nutshell than Peter comes back from the small book fair in Toronto and brings over a copy of Essex 1/2 hot off the presses. Absent is the greywoven cardstock that has typecast some of the work coming out of Tailspin: 1/2 comes in a 9x12 manila clasp envelope, 18 unbound sheets! 1/2 is a Canadian issue, features work by Tara Azzopardi, Stephen Cain, Jeff Derksen, Deanna Ferguson, Peter Jaeger, Karl Jirgens, Steve McCaffery, Karen Mac Cormack, Lisa Robertson, and the editors.=20 1/1 has Christian B=94k, Rose Withers, John M. Bennet, cris cheek, Michael Basinski, Wendy Kramer, Owen F. Smith, Darren Wersshler- Henry, and the editors. Pick these up, if only for the really cool tip-ins! t. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:50:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: People of Color? >So why don't you provoke something that helps instead of implying that >references coined by particular groups other than your own make you >uncomfortable ... huh? whoa mike/dales.... a) why is it you assume one is obligated to provoke? that provoking turns up helpful things? on this list, "provoking," especially deliberate provoking, has been turning up a lot of discomfort and defensiveness that more often than not have clouded issues, so if it is up to me, i'd just as soon someone not take out their virtual acetylene torch and try and "provoke" up a storm; b) since when is the only constructive way to work out various thoughts to "provoke" anyway? what happened to discuss, tease out opposing realities, dissect into multiple facets and look for prevalance, ask for new ways to solve for x, etc? c) doesn't seem to me that there was anything about saying references coined by other groups than speaker's own make speaker uncomfortable. what was said was, and rightfully so, that inside of a group referents may be used which are offensive when used by one outside of group. two examples spring to mind - i've heard various black people use the word "nigger" in reference to self/each other, i.e. "i am one bad nigger" but for non-black person to use word would be grossly offensive; as woman, i might often jokingly refer to "the girls" as sort of warm and age-inclusive and self-teasing referent, or as sly referent to gay component, as in "she's cute -- think she's one of us girls?". but when a male refers to women as girls, well, i'm not through the ceiling about it most of the time but it can be kind of offensive. THAT is what post was about, not as you imply some effort to impose referents coined only by speaker's group, whatever you parse that to be. finally, i see no opposition between looking for interesting responses and pointing out one interesting facet -- post was in fact another interesting facet on original thread -- insider/outsider viewpoint added to efforts to diversify added to racial/gender mix of mags. maybe since poster put some effort into posting, might be better to respect poster's own words and not try and spin them into something else, eh? e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 00:51:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: stereotypes look, if i want to be a stereotype, i get to be one -- i gotta be me, ya know? e ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 23:20:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Re: just buffalo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Mike. glad to see (where) you landed. best, Tenney Nathanson At 05:29 PM 9/29/97 -0400, you wrote: >--------------533394C668EB701664F8D231 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > >Poet(ic)s in Buffalo, > Sunday > October 5 > at 2 p.m. > > SUSAN HOWE > & > LEE ANN BROWN > > >will be reading as part of just buffalo's Writer's at Work Series at >HALLWALL'S, followed by a book signing and public dinner (dinner >location tba at reading). > >Susan will be introduced by Alicia Cohen, Lee Ann by Ben Friedlander. > >There will be a combined party for Lee Ann Brown and the opening of Anya >Lewin's new gallery, Cornershop @ 82 Lafayette (at Dewitt, near Niagra) >at 8pm on Saturday, October 4. If you need more info, call me at >882-8982. See you there. > >Mike > ---------------------------------------------------------- tenney nathanson tenney@azstarnet.com nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:36:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: Hannah Weiner Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear List, Here is the wonderful piece Hannah Weiner wrote for her Tender Buttons book, silent teachers remembered sequel, published in 1994, in honor of her 65th birthday (November 4th)...The book is available through me or through Small Press Distribution: 1 (800) 869-7553. HANNAH WEINER SILENT TEACHER hannah weiner was born to it in providence ri in 1928 and graduated from radcliffe college 1950 magna cum laude she then worked for three publishing houses got fired from all of them once for being too intellectual once for associating with aliens and once for being caught not slapping her bosses face she then turned to retailing and was an assistant buyer for fat ladies dresses in bloomingdales basement she married a psychiatrist freudian and divorced him four years later then she exaggerated but not lied herself into a job designing lingerie and turned down her second request for marriage by this time she was making the rounds of galleries and parties in the early sixties and began to write poetry in 1963 both writing and designing were childhood ambitions she got a free course at the new school and found she couldnt write new york school poetry in fact she couldnt write her own words at all only the magritte poems written in and the fast are in her own words happily she discovered the international code of signals and found she could write about almost anything by using the code books these became rather wild performances followed by other performances like street works 1-7 and the fashion show poetry event she was very well reviewed because the art critic of the village voice was one of her partners she thus met the musicians performers pop artisits lesbians and poets of that time all this glory ended in 1970 when she became extremely psychic and hiding out in a cheap apartment wrote about nothing else in almost 100 notebooks see the fast the words began to appear in 1972 and led to the clairvoyant journal a three voice performance poetry book about learning explaining instructions and the counter voice years passed the language group moved in and so did the indians she still remembers meeting chawho at a party saying youre getting pretty old dont you think you should publish she did sixteen and spoke begin to introduce the teaching now she is reaching her ultimate achievement learned first at her grandmother's knee TEACHING SILENT she has dragged several poets into this with her gosh ma shes a real female tarpsichordist ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 03:30:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: People of Color MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm currently a student at Naropa's writing program which has had it's own somewhat pathetic and not-so pathetic struggles and forrays into the issue of diversification. Being the only out and politically identified lesbian here has been a lesson in aloneness but no one ever said it'd be different. In my application I wrote that I understood that coming from a radical lesbian feminist tradition to the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics to be an act of crossover. But I am interested in these acts, how someone who is so informed by (my) social positioning reconciles aestetic choices and community. Well, the erotic poetry lesbians were never going to publish me anyway. Anyway here's an interesting anecdote and you'll excuse all my labeling which I'll call flavoring for the interest of the story and the list thread. Josepha Conrad (an Austrian/German immigrant) and I (what did Jane Bowles use to call herself? crippy dyke kike?--I'm not crippy yet) organized a group independent study of the work and life of Gertrude Stein as there had been and were to be no intensives of women in the entire two years+ (though yes Blake, Pound, Joyce) that we would be students here (and because we were interested). There are two others in the group--interestingly enough, a young gay native american man, and a south asian woman, but who's looking. Last week we were considering our week's reading and came upon "Melanctha," the second portrait of _Three Lives_. A few of us had read a bit of it and/or heard other things of Stein's somewhat off views on american blacks and were surprised to read Richard Wright's comments on Melanctha "The style was so insitent and original and sang so quaintly that I took the book home. As I read it my ears were opened for the first time to the magic of the spoken word . I began to hear the speech of my grandmother, who spoke a deep, pure Negro dialect and with whom I had lived for many years." Ish thought Wright must have been blackmailed or something and the rest of us went about defending it all. Yet since the class and having read the piece, I am a bit confounded. Stein's stereotyping and blatent prejudices "Rose Johnson was a real black, tall, well built, sullen, stupid, childlike, good looking negress" seem to be a mix of her usual subverting and some truly skewed and limited observations. Do listlings have more information about it? Is there anywhere where Stein herself describes what she is trying to do in Melanctha? Critiques? Controversies over Wright's support? best, Rachel Levitsky ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:22:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Social Tangles In-Reply-To: <19970930010159.10021.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i appreciate this thorough, thoughtful post. i'm not sure i'm all the way with adorno here, much as i admire him. he also was writing in a context of lyric being just about dead in germany, in a woeful state indeed; and also much "content-based" poetry/art was associated either with stalinism or with fascism, which had set itself against the "decadent, jewish" modernism. the context here is different. At 6:01 PM -0700 9/29/97, Dale Smith wrote: >There are two elements in these discussions I provoked. One is the need >to represent diversity through poetic channels. Another is to satisfy >one=EDs own demands, whatever they be, for formal poetic experimentation. >These are elements I engage myself with also. My own idealistic >dementia desires greater personal freedom for people of all backgrounds, >whatever they be. This is a social concern that I am sympathetic to, >due to personal experiences, state of mind, and because I prefer greater >freedom over its opposite and wish to do unto others as they do unto me, >etc. My other concern, however, is artistic, aesthetic. And that >aesthetic is not socially based. My understanding of art has been >influenced, for better or worse, by the amazingly compact but lucid >contributions to this subject by Theodor Adorno. Others, many others, >both living and dead, have influenced my thought as well. But Adorno >addresses art with a compact clarity I appreciate. Anyway, for me, this >kind of influence represents what I think of as a social exchange. And >these exchanges happen all the time. They even happen on this list. >Discussions of race, gender, sexual preference -- all of this and much >more, including the overt power structures of economy under which we all >live -- this is all socially necessary to argue, discuss, and debate. > >What I disagree with is the now accepted fact that art can contain, or >represent in some way, the same sense of social urgency as a >conversation, say, or discussions like those on this list. Art=EDs power >is not in what it addresses, but in what it is capable of reflecting. >Its power is mimetically traced to something in nature, something in us >as human beings. I don=EDt mean nature as birds and bees either. I mean >deeper elements of predation, hunger, desire, and * thought*, which is >actually the body=EDs tool. What I sense as false in poetry is often only >an over statement of social urgency, expressed in terms that deny the >very being from which such formal gestures originate. Often, poetry >represses the humorous, self-conscious impulse from which we articulate >our social desires. At times, =EBexperiemental=ED forms, the ones, perhaps >Kevin publishes in Mirage, though he doesn=EDt necessarily like them, >appear inhuman to me because they repel any human sympathy I might be >capable of lending the poem. I often always agree with the social cause >inherent in such poems. But the inhumane disregard for the reader >strikes me as an ingenuine gesture on the poet=EDs part. Because, as the >poet strives to communicate social injustice, he or she alienates those >who might otherwise support it. I realize humanism itself is suspect of >foul play, and many have provided useful critiques regarding its values. >So perhaps this is where my differences lie. Without being a >philosopher, I don=EDt know. I became a poet so that I would not have to >make linear sense. I wanted to invigorate and create. Out of a sense >of self-defense, however, today I will attempt to balance my more >playful impulses. > >Smart, socially active poetry is often void of emotional cohesion, or >even conflict. The lyric, as it was practiced in this language for >centuries, has been replaced with the sentimental suburban barbecue >flavors of that bland, relatively unengaged work of poets in the >University journals, the New Yorker and Poetry. I=EDm really not >attentive to that poetry in a way that qualifies me to speak of it at >greater depth, so I won=EDt push it. But to me, it=EDs rather, excuse the >term, *useless* as a means of expanding my own sense of poetics. >Another group that is more or less consistent in terms of form would be >what I assume many of us practice, though I don=EDt presume all of us. It >has been influenced by a variety of well-meaning and compelling formal >methods and theories. Many, but not all, Language Poets have careers of >some kind in academia and their influence has spread to new generations >of writers, such as my own. I will be reductive and say that their >concerns are, as I once heard Harriet Mullin say, with the trinity of >Class, Consciousness and Society. Many small journals and books publish >poetry that, to my mind, adheres to this social trinity in terms of >content. Its formal methodology is as diverse as the poets who practice >this kind of poetics. But I would say that writers engaged in this >activity do share certain elements in common. At the expense of >sounding like Mark Wallace, I=EDll enumerate. > >1) This Language-influenced poetry lacks a unified subject of >expression, ie, the poem=EDs voice is fragmented, or composed of many >voices. It is paratactic and employed as a formal element. I suppose >this is due to some mimetic sense of same disunity in the culture at >large, and is potentially a valid expression of such. > >2) It is very smart and ironic, but it lacks a greater sense of humor >and a more subtle intelligence. > >3) It is conscious of limits but doesn=EDt know when to end a poem > >4) It distributes a wide range of images throughout a poem, but without >an apparent purpose. It is unable to form recognizable patterns and >therefore confuses, increases the human distance of which I spoke >earlier, and takes the power of interpretation away from the reader by >not giving said reader a leg to stand on. > >5) It is highly moral, in a tradition that would be in league with >Jonathan Edwards if Edwards had known less about good prosody and >efficient diction. > >6) It treats language as substance, without the necessary human >conviction behind anything but the gesture of the experiment. > >In addition, a big problem with this type of aesthetic practice is that >it is generally accepted by many that one does not have to like a poem >to want to print it, read it, or do anything other than make paper >airplanes out of it. The social content is well liked, but the poems >themselves usually fall flat. > >I don=EDt see how any of the above benefits social causes in any way. >Whereas, lyric poetry, by recognizing suffering, employing language to >heighten sensitivity or sympathy, and appealing to the humane impulses >of the reader was able to address similar social issues. But it >contained the added depth of emotional suffering or joy, pleasure or >pointed barbs aimed to provoke bourgeois pain. An aesthetics charged >with the conviction of the self to confront social pressures invigorates >and opens readers to the concerns the poet, who is really a cultural >antennae, is conscious of and lives with in an awakened state of life. >There are many poets writing today who fulfill my demands. There are >many who don=EDt. Unlike Hoa, I believe strongly in sides, because they >will be drawn for you, or over you, unless you yourself take one and >follow it to the bitter end. I don=EDt mean to imply, however, that once >you=EDve been awakened to your own foolishness of pursuit it is impossible >to switch sides. But you should be conscious of where you are standing, >however uncomfortable that place may be. > >I guess all I meant by this long-winded diatribe was that sometimes >social issues cannot be represented by poetry but they can emanate from >poems. Sometimes good poetry has nothing to do with social subjects but >society is affected by what a poem offers. This bickering over who you >use to represent your magazine is necessary. But it is also equally >necessary to know what your magazines do to reflect a diversity of >worlds both malignant and benign. Inspire or incite, but don=EDt allow >complacency to infect. And judging by what I see, and by my own small >habits of life, that is easy to do. > >Dale > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:47:44 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: People of Color In-Reply-To: <3430AA9E.3AE2@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gertrude Stein lived a long time and wrote many different works that each were the works that the time the works were written were the person that she was for that part of the time. When she wrote Melanctha did she know she was gay or did she know she was herself. She might have thought she was a scientist like William James was a scientist who explored and thought instead of experimented. Was she already free of her brother or was she still not trapped by her brother. Before the flowers of friendship faded friendship faded, is that a different person from Mrs Reynolds on one side or Wars I Have Known on another side. Gertrude Stein must have had something to do with Alfred North Whitehead besides being one of the three geniuses genii I should say the third side of the triangle was Picasso if I am remembering and I am remembering I think it was as it was. To say stop I only carried my father this far is to no longer worry about identity except as a problem. What Whitehead said was that I know where I am when I am lost but not where the other places are. Transfer this to identity and what is it it is that I know who I am but not who the others are. This is separate from transformation that is the being a little boy and then being a man. Is it the same as being I because of a little dog? I think it is very suitable. Was it satisfactory it was satisfactory. It was thinking as thought was going into itself without being what some other angle would see the thought being. Everybody understood who listened but the patient ones were not all of them. Does your little dog know you are a person of color? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:18:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Organization: Mary Baldwin College Subject: Re: People of Color MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wright and Stein and "Rose Johnson was a real black, tall, well built, sullen, stupid, childlike, good looking negress." This would probably not have disturbed Wright much, at least if "Long Black Song" is any indication of Wright's attitude toward black women. The description of Rose seems almost like a model for the Sarah whom Wright creates in his story--I suspect that Rose is such a model and Stein an influence on Wright's style in "Long Black Song"--someone on the list might know that more certainly than I do. I don't think Sarah even gets a name until almost half way through the story--she's just "She." Stein's depiction of Rose may have been one of the things that attracted Wright, not something to which he would have objected. -- Bob Grotjohn ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 07:17:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: People of Color In-Reply-To: <3430AA9E.3AE2@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:30 AM -0400 9/30/97, Rachel Levitsky wrote: > Ish thought Wright must have been blackmailed or something and the >rest of us went about defending it all. Yet since the class and having read >the piece, I am a bit confounded. Stein's stereotyping and blatent >prejudices "Rose Johnson was a real black, tall, well built, sullen, stupid, >childlike, good looking negress" seem to be a mix of her usual subverting and >some truly skewed and limited observations. > Do listlings have more information about it? Is there anywhere where >Stein herself describes what she is trying to do in Melanctha? Critiques? >Controversies over Wright's support? Dear Rachel, if I were you I would try to get a copy of Aldon Nielsen's book "Reading Race" . . . a marvelous book which includes a chapter, or I guess part of a chapter, on just this controversy. He explores the historical background behind various black writers' endorsement of "Melanctha" (and other works by Gertrude Stein) and he can hardly write a sentence which isn't interesting all by itself. Beyond Stein he goes through the whole catalogue of US modernists and shows, one by one, how every one of them (OK a few exceptions) lets us down, or lets themselves down, on racial issues. Some amazing surprising stuff there. If you cannot find it at Naropa library or local library or bookstore let me know I will send you section on "Melanctha." Nielsen is actually on the Poetics list and if he were a gentleman, and not such a shrinking violet, he would send you the address of the publisher, thus increasing his readership base, possibly his royalties too, tho' that's far fetched. In any case I know you, Rachel, will thoroughly enjoy this book. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:01:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: Re: People of Color In-Reply-To: <3430AA9E.3AE2@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:30 AM 9/30/97 -0400, Rachel Levitsky wrote: >Anyway here's an interesting anecdote and you'll excuse all my labeling which >I'll call flavoring for the interest of the story and the list thread. >Josepha Conrad (an Austrian/German immigrant) and I (what did Jane Bowles use >to call herself? crippy dyke kike?--I'm not crippy yet) organized a group >independent study of the work and life of Gertrude Stein as there had been >and were to be no intensives of women in the entire two years+ (though yes >Blake, Pound, Joyce) that we would be students here (and because we were >interested). There are two others in the group--interestingly enough, a >young gay native american man, and a south asian woman, but who's looking. >Last week we were considering our week's reading and came upon "Melanctha," >the second portrait of _Three Lives_. A few of us had read a bit of it >and/or heard other things of Stein's somewhat off views on american blacks >and were surprised to read Richard Wright's comments on Melanctha "The style >was so insitent and original and sang so quaintly that I took the book home. >As I read it my ears were opened for the first time to the magic of the >spoken word . I began to hear the speech of my grandmother, who spoke a >deep, pure Negro dialect and with whom I had lived for many years." > Ish thought Wright must have been blackmailed or something and the >rest of us went about defending it all. Yet since the class and having read >the piece, I am a bit confounded. Stein's stereotyping and blatent >prejudices "Rose Johnson was a real black, tall, well built, sullen, stupid, >childlike, good looking negress" seem to be a mix of her usual subverting and >some truly skewed and limited observations. > Do listlings have more information about it? Is there anywhere where >Stein herself describes what she is trying to do in Melanctha? Critiques? >Controversies over Wright's support? Rachel: Coincidentally, a reading group i participate in just finished discussing Stein's _Three Lives_ and had similar questions about her point-of-view assumptions in *Melanctha*. The Richard Wright quote--do you know what it comes from? where i'd find it? Is there more to it? bill marsh ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:38:29 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Social Tangles Content-Type: text/plain Thanks for the contextual note Maria. The particular book of Adorno’s I return to again and again, especially when under fire from the SPT Thought Police, is *Aesthetic Theory,* written, as I’m sure you know, late in the ‘60’s before just before his death. Many of the issues Adorno addresses are, I believe, culturally relevant. He lived, after all, for many years in this country, and was responding to changing pressures of an increasingly, as he saw it, administered society both here and in western Europe. His critique is often aimed at the middle ground, between fascists and marxists both, in an attempt to confront the culture that grew out of the great destruction of WWII. That culture he responded to is also similar to our own in terms of comodification, administration of culture and art, and the continued limitation of the individual as a vehicle for expression in the face of opposition. So, I guess I must argue that Adorno’s aesthetic context is similar to our own in more ways than, perhaps, you would allow. Not to deny the other influences you mentioned. Because I’m sure those were very real pressures. But I think, especially in the later work, he is responding to issues very similar to what we face today. >i appreciate this thorough, thoughtful post. i'm not sure i'm all the way >with adorno here, much as i admire him. he also was writing in a context >of lyric being just about dead in germany, in a woeful state indeed; and >also much "content-based" poetry/art was associated either with stalinism >or with fascism, which had set itself against the "decadent, jewish" >modernism. the context here is different. > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 08:45:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: Social Tangles In-Reply-To: <19970930153830.17271.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 8:38 AM -0700 9/30/97, Dale Smith wrote: >Thanks for the contextual note Maria. The particular book of Adorno=EDs I >return to again and again, especially when under fire from the SPT >Thought Police, is *Aesthetic Theory,* Dale this is a thoroughly unnecessary comment, a dehumanization of myself, and a slam on an institution that is working very hard to keep voices such as yours alive in in the Bay Area. Small Press Traffic has done nothing to you but to support you as a writer. To reduce me to an institution is appallingly bad manners, at best. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:58:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: People of Color Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" simply to second (and third) the suggestion to check out listmember aldon lynn nielsen's _reading race_... for me, it was a real eye-opener... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:16:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: Social Tangles In-Reply-To: <19970930010159.10021.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 6:01 PM -0700 9/29/97, Dale Smith wrote: At times, =EBexperiemental=ED forms, the ones, perhaps >Kevin publishes in Mirage, though he doesn=EDt necessarily like them, >appear inhuman to me because they repel any human sympathy I might be >capable of lending the poem. =46irst of all, I, Dodie, am the co-editor of Mirage. Secondly, neither Kevin nor I have ever published work we didn't like. There's lots of different reasons to like a work--a spirit of fun, a zest, good sex, political upheaval, undefinable moments of beauty, as well as formal innovation. Mirage is committed to experimental forms--it just has a broad definition of "experimental." Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:30:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: People of Color Just a side note that, although I have no idea whether Nielson is a shrinking violet, i can say from some email correspondence, he is a gentleman, and the book's quite uncomfortably fine as well. beth simon ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:41:57 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Social Tangles Content-Type: text/plain Ultimately, Dodie, what you sense as bad manners on my part is only my unwillingness to post the usual dull, obvious, and self-serving posts that frequent this list. You are against thought, as far as I can see, by reducing it, continually, to a high-minded form of self-righteousness and *manners.* The thing you don't get, is that we can have differing opinions without it being a bad form of etiquette. Ultimately, I think you respond out of fear and self defensiveness. I think what you dislike in my posts is that what you read begins to turn the rusty gears of pressure in your head, and that scares you. So, to stop that fear you challenge with problems of diversity or anything else that is convenient. You are not consistent with your charges on this list, and I am not the only one whom you continually slander. I mean, you do a pretty good job of covering your ass. But we can read between the lines. And I will speak my mind. If I am unfair, or out of line, and it's pointed out to me, I usually acknowledge it. And, as far as policing goes, my statement is completely accurate in terms of my experience with you on this list. It was wrong of me, in the context of my post the other day, to ask you for grace, of any kind. But, maybe it's a vestige of my bourgeious background. I find that grace gives others the opportunity to delay personal conflict. I lack this often myself. But much of what we say, as poets, is charged with the moment of articulation, and is unavoidable. This medium itself distorts us, pushes us to appear a bit more binomial that we would be in each other's presence. I think that tolerance of ideas is necessary. No doubt I sometimes come on strong, and will continue to do so. And you can have all kinds of problems with that. But I think it would benefit discussion on this list if arguments were based less on personal biases and founded more upon intelligent opposition or counter positions to those we disagree with. Yours, a little winded, Dale ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:51:30 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Social Tangles Content-Type: text/plain Well, Kevin, on Friday, asked why you only had to publish what you like? I think he then went on to say that he publishes things he doesn't like quite often. Not wanting to speak for you, co-editor of Mirage, Dodie Bellamy, I refrained from associating you with that editorial practice because I had the feeling you publish based on what you convey below. I also was reluctant to mention your name because it usually brings nothing but grief these days. Apologies. I should have been less Kevin-centric. >From owner-poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Tue Sep 30 09:27:39 1997 >Received: (qmail 20474 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1997 16:17:03 -0000 >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) > by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 30 Sep 1997 16:17:03 -0000 >Received: from LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU by LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 21090866 for > POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:17:01 -0400 >Received: (qmail 10987 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1997 16:17:00 -0000 >Received: from mail3.sirius.com (205.134.253.133) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu > with SMTP; 30 Sep 1997 16:17:00 -0000 >Received: from [205.134.235.33] (ppp-asfm01--033.sirius.net [205.134.235.33]) > by mail3.sirius.com (8.8.7/Sirius-8.8.7-97.08.12) with ESMTP id > JAA18253 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 > 09:16:49 -0700 (PDT) >X-Sender: dbkk@pop.sirius.com >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 09:16:49 -0700 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM >Subject: Re: Social Tangles >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >In-Reply-To: <19970930010159.10021.qmail@hotmail.com> > >At 6:01 PM -0700 9/29/97, Dale Smith wrote: >At times, =EBexperiemental=ED forms, the ones, perhaps >>Kevin publishes in Mirage, though he doesn=EDt necessarily like them, >>appear inhuman to me because they repel any human sympathy I might be >>capable of lending the poem. > >=46irst of all, I, Dodie, am the co-editor of Mirage. Secondly, neither >Kevin nor I have ever published work we didn't like. There's lots of >different reasons to like a work--a spirit of fun, a zest, good sex, >political upheaval, undefinable moments of beauty, as well as formal >innovation. Mirage is committed to experimental forms--it just has a broad >definition of "experimental." > >Dodie > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:18:38 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: Re: People of Color? Content-Type: text/plain I would have responded to Mr. Pollet-- front channel-- but he also sent me a message saying basically the same thing back channel so I responded there. I am suprised no one else questioned what I thought was a rather provacative statement on Mr. Pollet's part. In my last communication with him, I suggested that maybe we take up this thread front channel and I am still uncertain whether there is general interest... "the usual dull, obvious, and self-serving post"-- Hoa ----------------------- Sylvester P. wrote: Hello, Hoa Nguyen! I understand that use of the term, I just don't like it & don't use it myself. I am a person of color, in my estimation, a sort of nicer color now than in March, when I tend to fade to a greyish white. Tanner now. When people, students say, want their heritage acknowledged, I try to honor that with sensitivity and particularity, so that I don't call a Passamaquoddy a Micmac. It seems clear to me that many terms used comfortably by people within a group to refer to themselves can not be used that way by outsiders. Of course, the language is constantly shifting, & it's our job as poets to push it into better places. I hope I'm not sounding cantankerous here--I was a bit yesterday, after half a day chainsawing firewood and half a day reading student papers. ( Not an academic, just a poet/part-timer, trying to get through the winter.) I think this sort of discussion really helps, by the way, so thanks. Dale S.> >>So why don't you provoke something that helps instead of implying that >>references coined by particular groups other than your own make you >>uncomfortable > Elizabeth M.: >... huh? whoa mike/dales.... a) why is it you assume one is obligated to >provoke? that provoking turns up helpful things? on this list, "provoking," >especially deliberate provoking, has been turning up a lot of discomfort and >defensiveness that more often than not have clouded issues, so if it is up to >me, i'd just as soon someone not take out their virtual acetylene torch and >try and "provoke" up a storm; b) since when is the only constructive way to >work out various thoughts to "provoke" anyway? what happened to discuss, tease >out opposing realities, dissect into multiple facets and look for prevalance, >ask for new ways to solve for x, etc? c) doesn't seem to me that there >was anything about saying references coined by other groups than speaker's >own make speaker uncomfortable. what was said was, and rightfully so, that >inside of a group referents may be used which are offensive when used by one >outside of group. two examples spring to mind - i've heard various black >people use the word "nigger" in reference to self/each other, i.e. "i am one >bad nigger" but for non-black person to use word would be grossly offensive; >as woman, i might often jokingly refer to "the girls" as sort of warm and >age-inclusive and self-teasing referent, or as sly referent to gay component, >as in "she's cute -- think she's one of us girls?". but when a male refers >to women as girls, well, i'm not through the ceiling about it most of the >time but it can be kind of offensive. THAT is what post was about, not >as you imply some effort to impose referents coined only by speaker's group, >whatever you parse that to be. > >finally, i see no opposition between looking for interesting responses and >pointing out one interesting facet -- post was in fact another interesting >facet on original thread -- insider/outsider viewpoint added to efforts to >diversify added to racial/gender mix of mags. > >maybe since poster put some effort into posting, might be better to respect >poster's own words and not try and spin them into something else, eh? >e > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:24:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: Social Tangles In-Reply-To: <19970930164158.29273.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:41 AM -0700 9/30/97, Dale Smith wrote: >Ultimately, I think you respond out of fear and self defensiveness. I >think what you dislike in my posts is that what you read begins to turn >the rusty gears of pressure in your head, and that scares you. You're right, Dale, your brand of dehumanization does, indeed, frighten me. I can only respond to it in horror. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:40:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: Re: People of Color? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks all for your great responses to the Stein question, the Nielson book sounds good, I'll check and get back whether I can find it. But to a more pressing matter. Hoa Nguyen wrote: > > I would have responded to Mr. Pollet-- front channel-- but he also sent > me a message saying basically the same thing back channel so I responded > there. > > I am suprised no one else questioned what I thought was a rather > provacative statement on Mr. Pollet's part. In my last communication > with him, I suggested that maybe we take up this thread front channel > and I am still uncertain whether there is general interest... > > "the usual dull, obvious, and self-serving post"-- > > Hoa > ----------------------- Hoa-- I'm found the post rather confusing because Mr. Pollet did not say what his identity actually was. I didn't assume he was white, didn't assume he'd be that silly and mean. It sort of reminds me of a conversation about diversity in which everyone whines that there is too much labeling happening, too much naming--assuming that naming things is simplifying rather than complexifying. Who said so? Just like Stein was always changing, as reflected in Schuchat Simon's post, so are the names and their meanings. We are constantly exploring what our very own names mean. What does being Rachel Levitsky mean anyway? Creeley said this summer that our names are not our own. And yet they are useful. I have a new word for labeling. Poetry. > > Sylvester P. wrote: > > Hello, Hoa Nguyen! I understand that use of the term, I just don't like > it > & don't use it myself. I am a person of color, in my estimation, a sort > of > nicer color now than in March, when I tend to fade to a greyish white. > Tanner now. When people, students say, want their heritage acknowledged, > I > try to honor that with sensitivity and particularity, so that I don't > call > a Passamaquoddy a Micmac. It seems clear to me that many terms used > comfortably by people within a group to refer to themselves can not be > used > that way by outsiders. Of course, the language is constantly shifting, & > it's our job as poets to push it into better places. I hope I'm not > sounding cantankerous here--I was a bit yesterday, after half a day > chainsawing firewood and half a day reading student papers. ( Not an > academic, just a poet/part-timer, trying to get through the winter.) I > think this sort of discussion really helps, by the way, so thanks. > > Dale S.> > >>So why don't you provoke something that helps instead of implying that > >>references coined by particular groups other than your own make you > >>uncomfortable > > > > Elizabeth M.: > > >... huh? whoa mike/dales.... a) why is it you assume one is obligated > to > >provoke? that provoking turns up helpful things? on this list, > "provoking," > >especially deliberate provoking, has been turning up a lot of > discomfort and > >defensiveness that more often than not have clouded issues, so if it is > up to > >me, i'd just as soon someone not take out their virtual acetylene torch > and > >try and "provoke" up a storm; b) since when is the only constructive > way to > >work out various thoughts to "provoke" anyway? what happened to > discuss, tease > >out opposing realities, dissect into multiple facets and look for > prevalance, > >ask for new ways to solve for x, etc? c) doesn't seem to me that there > >was anything about saying references coined by other groups than > speaker's > >own make speaker uncomfortable. what was said was, and rightfully so, > that > >inside of a group referents may be used which are offensive when used > by one > >outside of group. two examples spring to mind - i've heard various > black > >people use the word "nigger" in reference to self/each other, i.e. "i > am one > >bad nigger" but for non-black person to use word would be grossly > offensive; > >as woman, i might often jokingly refer to "the girls" as sort of warm > and > >age-inclusive and self-teasing referent, or as sly referent to gay > component, > >as in "she's cute -- think she's one of us girls?". but when a male > refers > >to women as girls, well, i'm not through the ceiling about it most of > the > >time but it can be kind of offensive. THAT is what post was about, not > >as you imply some effort to impose referents coined only by speaker's > group, > >whatever you parse that to be. > > > >finally, i see no opposition between looking for interesting responses > and > >pointing out one interesting facet -- post was in fact another > interesting > >facet on original thread -- insider/outsider viewpoint added to efforts > to > >diversify added to racial/gender mix of mags. > > > >maybe since poster put some effort into posting, might be better to > respect > >poster's own words and not try and spin them into something else, eh? > >e > > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:35:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: Social Tangles dale i am not sure what your issue with dodie is, but i wonder, could you keep it backchannel? just for record, if someone came to me and said "Quick! describe dodie bellamy!" > " against thought, as far as I can see, by reducing it, continually, to a high-minded form of self-righteousness and *manners.*" would absolutely not be what comes to mind. able to penetrate in a single glance, quite often, to the painful and because painful, not spoken; fiery; brave; sometimes hasty; often seen backing down if haste and fire has brought her too far; gentle; busy; tired; overcommitted; multiply viewed; wise, in that older-woman wise way; freely moving between age groups; learned; able to command small details in a single bound; a fine champion of women, working class, non-academics, writers, editors, literati, all color/ethnicity/religion; quick to understand subtleties and complexities and interplays -- dodie and judy and joe and david b and henry are main people i'll look to backchannel when i am trying to tease out strange knots of a dilemna, but dodie and judy are most often the ones who'll say the difficult, perhaps confrontational stuff in an honest, vulnerable way i really respect... sometimes when defensive, one attributes to "enemy" qualities one embodies in oneself. dale, i haven't seen you back down on anything you've been mistaken about, including that woeful misreading of sylvester pollet. if you've done it, it hasn't registered. i have seen you, in the short time you've been on the list, attack much more often than i've seen dodie do, and when i've seen dodie it isn't an attack so much as an honest "this is what i'm seeing and think. tell me if i'm mistaken" -- and i've told her, when i didn't know her, that i thought she was mistaken and we talked about it and dale, she didn't call me a single name. that was when i learned how useful (if one can get over the guilt of bothering her when she is so overcommitted) dodie is in teasing out a complex problem. i've seen posts that turn wheels dale. some of yours do. a number haven't. i've seen dodie's response to wheel turners -- see for instance working class thread of about a year ago, or another gender issue thread much like the one current of about a year ago as well. see dodie on small presses, on contests (from this summer) and in one of the finest dodie moments, the funding process for small presses and series. she described, with blistering honesty, what she does to get money for SPT, being on grant committees that distribute (or don't) money, and my heavens it elicited some extraordinary responses from others, from her again, from others. when wheel turners come dodie's way, i would say, again, her most consistent response is some wild leap in a direction either one hadn't looked, or it was uncomfortable and therefore not done, to look. oh, another fine dodie moment -- writing and sexuality and erotica, also this summer and a few months earlier as well. then another leap. then someone leaps elsewise and dodie goes there and comes back, or over, etc. if you are feeling there is another reaction to your posts from dodie, you might re-examine what she reacts to in terms of its "wheel-turning" capacity. i wouldn't call name-calling wheel turning, but rather, an attempt to break the wheel. and you might want to settle with dodie backchannel why it is you are having those responses? i don't want to get to the point of deleting your posts unread -- your post on adorno and langpo is still making wheels turn and i'm not yet ready to post response, it was that dense and interesting. but i really don't get anything out of attacks on people and nastiness for the sake of stirring things up. i keep ending up responding to latter, because i'm irish and i hate seeing people hurt or bullied (alot of what motivates dodie i think. it might also be a female response -- we are socialized to nurture and protect, not tear down and eat while wiggling then pee on remains). but i don't like it -- it makes my stomach hurt and my blood pressure rise and my chocolate consumption go up. i've noticed as people enter list, they try and make a "stir" by posting nasty posts and flames and attacking in the name of "being provocative." i know i did it myself, and did it out of mostly insecurity. i wonder if there could be something in welcome message to reassure people and disable attack/make a stir reflex? e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 10:53:06 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dale Smith Subject: Re: Social Tangles Content-Type: text/plain Actually, I did backchannel Dodie last week. A couple of times. She didn't respond to either. I apologize to the list. It's not as dull and self-serving as I suggest. If it serves any one, as I can tell, it's me. I got $5 for a magazine yesterday. I haven't read your question to me re: Pollet yet. Will though. I assumed he was white because he said so. But, I could have misinterpreted. >From owner-poetics@listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu Tue Sep 30 10:35:45 1997 >Received: (qmail 24024 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1997 17:35:10 -0000 >Received: from listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu (128.205.7.35) > by deliverance.acsu.buffalo.edu with SMTP; 30 Sep 1997 17:35:10 -0000 >Received: from LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU by LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > (LISTSERV-TCP/IP release 1.8c) with spool id 21094539 for > POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:35:09 -0400 >Received: (qmail 26670 invoked from network); 30 Sep 1997 17:35:07 -0000 >Received: from life.ai.mit.edu (128.52.32.80) by listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu with > SMTP; 30 Sep 1997 17:35:07 -0000 >Received: from rice-chex.ai.mit.edu (rice-chex.ai.mit.edu [128.52.32.46]) by > life.ai.mit.edu (8.8.5/AI1.15/ai.master.life:1.18) with ESMTP id > NAA08094 for ; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 > 13:35:05 -0400 (EDT) >Received: (from elliza@localhost) by rice-chex.ai.mit.edu > (8.8.5/8.8.4AI/ai.client:1.5) id NAA22050 for > POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU; Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:35:04 -0400 > (EDT) >Message-ID: <199709301735.NAA22050@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> >Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:35:04 -0400 >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >Sender: UB Poetics discussion group >From: Eliza McGrand >Subject: Re: Social Tangles >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >dale >i am not sure what your issue with dodie is, but i wonder, could you keep >it backchannel? > >just for record, if someone came to me and said "Quick! describe dodie >bellamy!" >> " against thought, as far as I can see, >by reducing it, continually, to a high-minded form of self-righteousness >and *manners.*" >would absolutely not be what comes to mind. > >able to penetrate in a single glance, quite often, to the painful and because >painful, not spoken; fiery; brave; sometimes hasty; often seen backing down if >haste and fire has brought her too far; gentle; busy; tired; overcommitted; >multiply viewed; wise, in that older-woman wise way; freely moving between >age groups; learned; able to command small details in a single bound; a fine >champion of women, working class, non-academics, writers, editors, literati, >all color/ethnicity/religion; quick to understand subtleties and complexities >and interplays -- dodie and judy and joe and david b and henry are main people >i'll look to backchannel when i am trying to tease out strange knots of a >dilemna, but dodie and judy are most often the ones who'll say the difficult, >perhaps confrontational stuff in an honest, vulnerable way i really respect... > >sometimes when defensive, one attributes to "enemy" qualities one embodies >in oneself. dale, i haven't seen you back down on anything you've been >mistaken about, including that woeful misreading of sylvester pollet. if >you've done it, it hasn't registered. i have seen you, in the short time >you've been on the list, attack much more often than i've seen dodie do, >and when i've seen dodie it isn't an attack so much as an honest "this is >what i'm seeing and think. tell me if i'm mistaken" -- and i've told her, >when i didn't know her, that i thought she was mistaken and we talked about >it and dale, she didn't call me a single name. that was when i learned how >useful (if one can get over the guilt of bothering her when she is so >overcommitted) dodie is in teasing out a complex problem. > >i've seen posts that turn wheels dale. some of yours do. a number haven't. >i've seen dodie's response to wheel turners -- see for instance working >class thread of about a year ago, or another gender issue thread much like >the one current of about a year ago as well. see dodie on small presses, on >contests (from this summer) and in one of the finest dodie moments, the funding >process for small presses and series. she described, with blistering honesty, >what she does to get money for SPT, being on grant committees that distribute >(or don't) money, and my heavens it elicited some extraordinary responses from >others, from her again, from others. when wheel turners come dodie's way, i >would say, again, her most consistent response is some wild leap in a direction >either one hadn't looked, or it was uncomfortable and therefore not done, to >look. oh, another fine dodie moment -- writing and sexuality and erotica, also >this summer and a few months earlier as well. then another leap. then someone >leaps elsewise and dodie goes there and comes back, or over, etc. > >if you are feeling there is another reaction to your posts from dodie, you >might re-examine what she reacts to in terms of its "wheel-turning" capacity. >i wouldn't call name-calling wheel turning, but rather, an attempt to break >the wheel. and you might want to settle with dodie backchannel why it is you >are having those responses? > >i don't want to get to the point of deleting your posts unread -- your post >on adorno and langpo is still making wheels turn and i'm not yet ready to post >response, it was that dense and interesting. but i really don't get anything >out of attacks on people and nastiness for the sake of stirring things up. i >keep ending up responding to latter, because i'm irish and i hate seeing people >hurt or bullied (alot of what motivates dodie i think. it might also be a female >response -- we are socialized to nurture and protect, not tear down and eat while wiggling then pee on remains). but i don't like it -- it makes my stomach >hurt and my blood pressure rise and my chocolate consumption go up. i've noticed as people enter list, they try and make a "stir" by posting nasty posts and >flames and attacking in the name of "being provocative." i know i did it >myself, and did it out of mostly insecurity. i wonder if there could be >something in welcome message to reassure people and disable attack/make a stir >reflex? >e > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 11:40:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Social Tangles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Could we all try to keep personal jabs, as opposed to critiques of ideas, backchannel? No reason for personal snarling to be done in front of an audience. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 14:47:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: *Chain* & what one likes Certainly one's *feelings* are central to making aesthetic judgements. But although our feelings are our own, they originate in cultural values. So, whether we like "this" rather than "that" depends first of all on our culture. The breadth of one's culture is what makes it possible to recognize the conflict of values competing within and for the cultural field. Indeed, as the art critic de Duve argues -- sensitivity to art involves experiencing this conflict of values as a conflict of feelings. Art -- at least experimentalist art -- is something one feels *conflictually*: "you give your consent to the absence of consensus." Ideally, then, progressive aesthetic judgements are not questions of "taste," but depend on a willingness and a *talent* for letting, say, the poems one writes or publishes run against & betray one's "tastes." Of course, this can be done stupidly or not, in a reactionary or an adventurous way -- but most importantly it involves the ability to read one's feelings as if they were objects projected from, as de Duve says, outside of oneself. The disagreements in recent postings over the value of the writing in *Chain* strike me, then, as being really about whether poetry is (as the criticisms of *C* seem to suggest) something *given* or whether it is, instead a generative & a constructivist practice. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:51:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: Weapons named after people & military slang MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have no knowledge of explosives - why, I wonder, did they mix explosives with flour - were they trying to harness the self-raising power? ---------- | From: Kali Tal | Aunt Jemima: explosive mixed with flour (WWII) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:59:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: *Chain* & what one likes Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jacques, that's all very nicely put, but--- here comes henry!... really though: poetry in fact, poetic practice/process, is also characterized by being free (as it were) to push past the cultural moment... whether in its actual articulation or ex post facto is not *necessarily* the point... the point is the imagined effort... which, if you like, you can insist on seeing as sociocultural---and i do mself in many ways, on many occasions---but which, too, may be regarded in terms of the singular, much as one's fingerprint, the significance or insignificance of which is perhaps buried under that term "talent" you've, uhm, deployed (and i see it this way too on occasion)... nice post, anyway!... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:06:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: *Chain* & what one likes In-Reply-To: <970930144332_-494463886@emout18.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Don't believe everything you read in books. At 02:47 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >Certainly one's *feelings* are central to making aesthetic judgements. But >although our feelings are our own, they originate in cultural values. So, >whether we like "this" rather than "that" depends first of all on our >culture. The breadth of one's culture is what makes it possible to recognize >the conflict of values competing within and for the cultural field. Indeed, >as the art critic de Duve argues -- sensitivity to art involves experiencing >this conflict of values as a conflict of feelings. Art -- at least >experimentalist art -- is something one feels *conflictually*: "you give your >consent to the absence of consensus." Ideally, then, progressive aesthetic >judgements are not questions of "taste," but depend on a willingness and a >*talent* for letting, say, the poems one writes or publishes run against & >betray one's "tastes." Of course, this can be done stupidly or not, in a >reactionary or an adventurous way -- but most importantly it involves the >ability to read one's feelings as if they were objects projected from, as de >Duve says, outside of oneself. The disagreements in recent postings over the >value of the writing in *Chain* strike me, then, as being really about >whether poetry is (as the criticisms of *C* seem to suggest) something >*given* or whether it is, instead a generative & a constructivist practice. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:20:19 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hoa Nguyen Subject: thanks Content-Type: text/plain Dear List People-- I will still be receiving mail at this address but I won't be subscribing to the list anymore, so if you address any questions to/towards me, you will need to back channel for me to see it or to garner a response. Feeling weird but ok, Hoa ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:19:16 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: People of Color MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Schuchat Simon wrote: > > Gertrude Stein lived a long time and wrote many different works that each > were the works that the time the works were written were the person that > she was for that part of the time. When she wrote Melanctha did she know > she was gay or did she know she was herself. She might have thought she > was a scientist like William James was a scientist who explored and > thought instead of experimented. Was she already free of her brother or > was she still not trapped by her brother. Before the flowers of > friendship faded friendship faded, is that a different person from Mrs > Reynolds on one side or Wars I Have Known on another side. Gertrude > Stein must have had something to do with Alfred North Whitehead besides > being one of the three geniuses genii I should say the third side of the > triangle was Picasso if I am remembering and I am remembering I think it > was as it was. To say stop I only carried my father this far is to no > longer worry about identity except as a problem. What Whitehead said was > that I know where I am when I am lost but not where the other places > are. Transfer this to identity and what is it it is that I know who I am > but not who the others are. This is separate from transformation that is > the being a little boy and then being a man. Is it the same as being I > because of a little dog? I think it is very suitable. Was it > satisfactory it was satisfactory. It was thinking as thought was going > into itself without being what some other angle would see the thought > being. Everybody understood who listened but the patient ones were not > all of them. Does your little dog know you are a person of color? Schuchat, I thoroughly enjoyed this! Thanks for the liveliness shared here.... Layne http://www.sonic.net/layne "A Quiet Place" -- Poetry http://www.sonic.net/layne/calendar.html "Poets Leave Their Prints" -- Poetry Calendar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:41:46 BST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ira Lightman Subject: Re: Social Tangles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I'd like to concur that I hate this "provoke to get the truth" thing as much as I hate it in Adorno (anyone who dismisses Stravinsky as Adorno does is profoundly non-post-modernist, or sane, would be Adornoesque about Adorno). I enter this thread only to put in a poem on it coincedentally composed two days ago add-or-no- straction. I think Adorno's idea of negative dialectic is nuts, non-Hegel, you caan't force others into dialectic, on your terms, and ditto with "ab-straction" ie like ab-sent, to be recognised as departing. Thus there must be ad-straction, thus ad-straction or no straction at all, plus a pun on Adorno... Ira Lightman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 15:22:09 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: Re: Social Tangles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i think it possible to articulate provocative ideas and unpopular positions without the kind of personal attack the below instanciates. plenty of folks disagree with each other here, but accusing others of laziness (rusty gears in your head) and imputing motives to them is indecorous. your post on adorno was insightful and interesting but your attack on spt police uncalled for (the idea of SPT being in a policing role was so incongruous to me that i thought you must mean something else by SPT that i didn't know about). actually, now that i think about it, i did say something about the avant garde "policing its borders" a few months ago and got some defensive but on the whole thoughtful responses that made me realize my wording had been infelicitous. At 9:41 AM 9/30/97, Dale Smith wrote: >Ultimately, Dodie, what you sense as bad manners on my part is only my >unwillingness to post the usual dull, obvious, and self-serving posts >that frequent this list. You are against thought, as far as I can see, >by reducing it, continually, to a high-minded form of self-righteousness >and *manners.* The thing you don't get, is that we can have differing >opinions without it being a bad form of etiquette. > >Ultimately, I think you respond out of fear and self defensiveness. I >think what you dislike in my posts is that what you read begins to turn >the rusty gears of pressure in your head, and that scares you. So, to >stop that fear you challenge with problems of diversity or anything else >that is convenient. You are not consistent with your charges on this >list, and I am not the only one whom you continually slander. I mean, >you do a pretty good job of covering your ass. But we can read between >the lines. > >And I will speak my mind. If I am unfair, or out of line, and it's >pointed out to me, I usually acknowledge it. And, as far as policing >goes, my statement is completely accurate in terms of my experience with >you on this list. > >It was wrong of me, in the context of my post the other day, to ask you >for grace, of any kind. But, maybe it's a vestige of my bourgeious >background. I find that grace gives others the opportunity to delay >personal conflict. I lack this often myself. But much of what we say, >as poets, is charged with the moment of articulation, and is >unavoidable. This medium itself distorts us, pushes us to appear a bit >more binomial that we would be in each other's presence. I think that >tolerance of ideas is necessary. No doubt I sometimes come on strong, >and will continue to do so. And you can have all kinds of problems with >that. But I think it would benefit discussion on this list if arguments >were based less on personal biases and founded more upon intelligent >opposition or counter positions to those we disagree with. > >Yours, a little winded, >Dale > > > > > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 13:51:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Lynn Hejinian's essay "Rejection of Closure" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, Does anyone know how I might obtain a copy of Hejinian's essay "Rejection of Closure," originally in Poetry Journal, sometime in the late 1980's? Web searches have been unsuccessful so far. Thanks, Pete Balestrieri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 12:31:48 -0700 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: Re: Killian and Argento MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Carolyn, Best way to order such books here is to write to Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh Street [new address], Berkeley, CA 94702 USA or call to get prices, etc. : 1-510.524.1668 ; 1-800.869.7553 : toll free orders numbers [don't know if it works from here] fax: 1-510.524.0852 ; or email: spd@igc.apc.org hope that helps [so nice this cut-and-paste!] best, Susan Susan Clark RADDLE MOON -- ** IMPORTANT : the reply function alone will not reach me. To reply, please remove "nospam" from the email address before sending. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:30:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Lynn Hejinian's essay "Rejection of Closure" In-Reply-To: <000AC4B2.001826@intuit.com> from "Peter Balestrieri" at Sep 30, 97 01:51:37 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Part of it is excerpted in Hoover's Norton Anthology of Postmod Poetr - you might be able to get a helpful cite from his bibliography. -Mike. According to Peter Balestrieri: > > Hello All, > Does anyone know how I might obtain a copy of Hejinian's essay > "Rejection of Closure," originally in Poetry Journal, sometime in the > late 1980's? Web searches have been unsuccessful so far. > Thanks, > Pete Balestrieri > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 29 Sep 1997 16:31:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph S Zitt Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Maria Damon wrote: > being > jewish though makes for an interesting twist in the cloth. it's hard to > convey to West coasters and midwesterners the reality that in my hometown > (boston and environs) it was standard during my childhood and adolescence > (and possibly even now) for certain country clubs etc to officially exclude > blacks and jews. when explaining why that meant i didn't belong to the > institutions that my classmates did, i've been stopped and asked, "you look > pretty white to me, so what's the problem?" as if they hadn't heard, or > couldn't process, the "and jews" part of what i'd said. it just isn't part > of how they divide up the world. the christian majority is not just a I never really grokked the otherness of being Jewish until I moved off the East Coast to Texas. People I met there couldn't understand why I found the months of compulsory Christmas muzak in the malls irritating (at best) -- until I asked them how they'd like being forced to listen continually to Mantovani's Greatest Islamic Chants. On the other hand, that's when I started viewing being Jewish as interesting, which had a big effect on my own studies and writing. I have friends in Texas who have bemoaned their own lack of ethnicity. When they leave the state, though, they find out that being Texan is its own thing, and (especially those with recognizably Texan accents) have to deal with both being stereotyped by others, and the way that other parts of the country are very different. (Since coming back East, it strikes me how rarely people smile around here!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 17:50:37 -0700 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: Lyn Hejinian's "Rejection of Closure" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear all, In case anyone else is interested, Lyn's essay was reprinted in RADDLE MOON 4, our international women writers issue. Copies are still available. Susan -- ** IMPORTANT : the reply function alone will not reach me. To reply, please remove "nospam" from the email address before sending. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:50:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Re: Lyn Hejinian's essay "Rejection of Closure" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The entire essay is reprinted in an relatively new and in-print anthology, mentioned previously on this list: Onward: Contemporary Poetry & Poetics ed. Peter Baker Peter Lang (NY, 1996) the original essay was published in Poetics Journal 4 (1984) > Does anyone know how I might obtain a copy of Hejinian's essay > "Rejection of Closure," originally in Poetry Journal, sometime in the > late 1980's? Web searches have been unsuccessful so far. > Thanks, > Pete Balestrieri ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 18:36:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I don't know if San Diego has its equivalent of Tuxedo Park or Lake Forest or Grosse Point (these last, Maria, are in the midwest), but I suspect it does. For those of you who don't know, Jews can't buy houses in these places. Quogue on Long Island, if I'm not mistaken, is another. I suspect that the California cities have similar suburbs, but I know for sure that there are places in San Diego county where being Jewish would be none to comfortable. Lest we glorify the wide open spaces of the West in contrast to the decadent East, remember that some of those wide open spaces are between the ears of militia members and Aryan Nation types. On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Maria Damon wrote: > >> being >> jewish though makes for an interesting twist in the cloth. it's hard to >> convey to West coasters and midwesterners the reality that in my hometown >> (boston and environs) it was standard during my childhood and adolescence >> (and possibly even now) for certain country clubs etc to officially exclude >> blacks and jews. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 21:47:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eliza McGrand Subject: Re: stereotypes WHAT?! YUCK! how are jews prevented from buying -- is it outright question than refusal? does real estate agent do research, kind of the way used car salespeople do? what happens if someone jewish DOES buy? i am reminded of way temp companies in boston screen out black office workers. they administer typing tests, grammar tests, and it is awful because you see black woman who has worn her desk to paper learning to type faster hunched over machine and slamming out script like blazes. and office type overseeing administration, and interview, nods nicely and says "good good, we'll call when we have something" and then they never call. but next in line white worker like me takes typing test, doesn't type as fast even, and it's "well we have a job HERE, and HERE, and how about we send you out to BLAH company today" and one thinks, at those moments, about the rent check, about walking out, about saying something,... and perhaps one has said somthing a time or two and the personnel type, who moments ago was "othered," the enemy, looks drawn and miserable and says my boss said i can't send black workers there, and they have said they don't want them, and we'll lose the account if we send them, and they make them miserable if we do... and who wins. who loses. what is the stunning gesture that paralyzes snakes in their tracks and charms us all to sweet water again? e ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 19:34:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Race, identity, otherness, us-ness, stereotypes.... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is all such complicated stuff, since we all have multiple locations. When I think about "being Jewish," I think of it relative to other identities I have, which range from being white to being a product of the upper class. I also think about it relative to my ability to "pass" as non-Jewish (voluntary omission of the fact of my Jewishness) or my inability to be recognized as Jewish (involuntary exclusion). I think of it in relation to my decision to become an African Americanist, in relation to my kinship network (my extended family is comprised of German/Eastern European Jews and Puerto Rican Episcopalians), and so on. We are none of us able to be expressed by a singular, unified, identity. We're always this *and* that *and* that *and* that.... To sort out some of the identification issues, I tend to divide my identity markers into a couple of classes. The first is identity which is marked in the body. My femaleness falls in that category, as does my whiteness. Both are hard to hide, hard to represent as other than they are. Body markers are a big deal--they're the most in-your-face kinds of identity tags, and most of the reactions I get from other people are predicated, first of all, *on* those markers. (And working in e-space is fascinating, because those markers are removed and the name-tag I wear is most often mistaken for non-white and male.) An interesting thing about body markers, of course, is that they're easily misread. I don't "look Jewish," whatever that means, and so I am marked, on the basis of my body, by both Jews and non-Jews as "not a Jew." In the U.S., there's a body marker category called "Asian" which lumps together ethnic groups whose members consider each other to be racially distinct--Vietnamese, Korean, Japanese, etc. Such "mistakes" lead to questions like "what is Jewishness?" or "what is blackness?" or even "what is race?" Lots of questions to wrestle with here. After the body markers come what I think of as the "image tags," or the deliberate ornamentation/style I adopt to convey certain messages about who I am. A shaved head, visible tattoes, piercings, leather, and so on. Or high heels, stockings, lace, a lotta cleavage. Or dreads. Or a kafiyah. Or or or. These tags have everything to do with what I want other people to think I am, but they are deliberately constructed, not inherent qualities. (I've had a couple of friends--both male, coincidentally--who were of a color and a "type" which was totally racially indeterminate. Both of them identified as "nonwhite"--and that is the general category they used--all the time, but one wavered back and forth between that broader category and East Asian Indian, and the other fluctuated between "nonwhite" and "black." On any given day they expressed their preferences and inclinations by the image tags they chose. As a "racial Everyman"--their term, not mine--they were assumed to be members of the dominant local nonwhite race, whatever that was, by the members of that group. In Texas, Chicanos spoke Spanish to them, in Georgia African Americans assumed they were black, and white folks everywhere usually assumed they were white. They'd have to resist that definition by donning contradictory image tags, or it would be imposed upon them as a default.) And then there are the internal tags, the "what-I-think-of-me-as" category of stuff I feel is somehow integral, but ultimately invisible. Like, hey, I know I'm a Jew even though I'm not exactly sure what Jewishness is (a race? a religion? a dessert topping?). There are days when I think I'm a Jew only because at other times and places people would have killed me for being a Jew, or because *if* people knew I was a Jew they wouldn't let me into their clubs, or because I'm sitting around and laughing and talking with a bunch of other people and we share what--for lack of a better word-- I have to call a "Jewish heritage," meaning that we laugh at the same jokes, share inflections, stories. Then there are other days when I feel a kind of connection to the myths I know as "Jewish history," even though I never feel any connection (and actually feel an antipathy) to anything smacking of the "Jewish religion." And I always *know* I'm not black. I never wake up in the morning with any doubt about that. These are the markers that I wear inside, and that are mostly invisible, even to me. Stereotyping both combines the first two categories to create a kind of shorthand for the determination of "what" a person is, and influences the self-concept which shapes the development of the internal tags. (I am what I say I am, so I have to be careful about what I say I am; I am / am not what you say I am, so I wish you'd be careful about what you say I am.) Aldon posted that great list of books (I'm glad someone added Aldon's to the list), and I'd like to add one more: Michael Omi & Howard Winant's revised edition of _Racial Formations_. Great stuff. I tend to believe that there *are* no "real" races, that identity along racial lines is wholly constructed, but that we construct it because the urge to Otherize is hardwired into the wetware; it's part of what makes us human beings. So racial constructions change with the times (remember when the Irish were black?), but the urge to construct races is a constant. We construct Others and we construct ourselves alla the time. The best we can do, I think, is try to be aware of who we're constructing, and how and why, who it hurts, who benefits, how the system we move within is structured to determine races and classes and genders and other Others here and now. Kali >On Mon, 29 Sep 1997, Maria Damon wrote: > >> being >> jewish though makes for an interesting twist in the cloth. it's hard to >> convey to West coasters and midwesterners the reality that in my hometown >> (boston and environs) it was standard during my childhood and adolescence >> (and possibly even now) for certain country clubs etc to officially exclude >> blacks and jews. when explaining why that meant i didn't belong to the >> institutions that my classmates did, i've been stopped and asked, "you look >> pretty white to me, so what's the problem?" as if they hadn't heard, or >> couldn't process, the "and jews" part of what i'd said. it just isn't part >> of how they divide up the world. the christian majority is not just a > >I never really grokked the otherness of being Jewish until I moved off the >East Coast to Texas. People I met there couldn't understand why I found >the months of compulsory Christmas muzak in the malls irritating (at >best) -- until I asked them how they'd like being forced to listen >continually to Mantovani's Greatest Islamic Chants. On the other hand, >that's when I started viewing being Jewish as interesting, which had a big >effect on my own studies and writing. > >I have friends in Texas who have bemoaned their own lack of ethnicity. >When they leave the state, though, they find out that being Texan is its >own thing, and (especially those with recognizably Texan accents) have to >deal with both being stereotyped by others, and the way that other parts >of the country are very different. (Since coming back East, it strikes me >how rarely people smile around here!) Kali Tal new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 30 Sep 1997 20:06:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: stereotypes In-Reply-To: <199710010147.VAA24853@rice-chex.ai.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's how it works. In the old days when you bought a house from a real estate agent in these towns you signed a contract requiring you to resell through that same agent if you decided to leave. The agents did the dirty-work of deciding who to show to. Those contracts were declared illegal about fifteen years ago, so it's done informally now, and an occasional jew, or italian, etc., slips through. In Lake Forest, where I spent a summer at an art colony, my understanding was that a very few blacks were allowed in as long as they played football for the Chicago team (sorry, I don't follow the game--I'd rather watch paint dry). So the process was distanced from its beneficiaries. What's striking is that no one ever seems to wake up in the morning wondering why all of his neighbors seem so similar. At 09:47 PM 9/30/97 -0400, you wrote: >WHAT?! YUCK! how are jews prevented from buying -- is it outright question >than refusal? does real estate agent do research, kind of the way used car >salespeople do? what happens if someone jewish DOES buy? i am reminded of >way temp companies in boston screen out black office workers. they administer >typing tests, grammar tests, and it is awful because you see black woman who >has worn her desk to paper learning to type faster hunched over machine and >slamming out script like blazes. and office type overseeing administration, >and interview, nods nicely and says "good good, we'll call when we have >something" and then they never call. but next in line white worker like >me takes typing test, doesn't type as fast even, and it's "well we have a >job HERE, and HERE, and how about we send you out to BLAH company today" >and one thinks, at those moments, about the rent check, about walking out, >about saying something,... and perhaps one has said somthing a time or two >and the personnel type, who moments ago was "othered," the enemy, looks >drawn and miserable and says my boss said i can't send black workers there, >and they have said they don't want them, and we'll lose the account if we >send them, and they make them miserable if we do... and who wins. who loses. >what is the stunning gesture that paralyzes snakes in their tracks and charms >us all to sweet water again? >e > >