========================================================================= Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Nominations please In-Reply-To: Carol Mirakove "Re: Nominations please" (Oct 30, 2:12pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Oct 30, 2:12pm, Carol Mirakove wrote: > Subject: Re: Nominations please > "Go ahead and blow us up, just spare me the warnings." > > "To hell with this social angst, let's make beads." > > both from Mark Wallace's _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There_ >-- End of excerpt from Carol Mirakove >"Go ahead and blow us up, just spare me the warnings." - The last words of Joseph K.in Orson Well's film version of Kafka's _The Trial_ after his executioners opted out of the kosher approach. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 05:12:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, The Cross-Cultural Poetics Conference in Minneapolis felt like a strong friends and allies gathering in search of a shareable agenda. That agenda remained largely illusive. Still, I enjoyed it, but then i liked Minneapolis very much as a friendly and relaxed city. Lots of decent cafes, coffee houses, book stores, extraordinary music stores, good museum collections (Walker collection plus Beuys' 'Multiples' show, Wiseman's Pop in Gehry's extraordinary sardine cans buffeting the Mississippi - reflecting river, bridge and sky, with a very funny show of Indian Humour, and the Minneapolis Institue of Art showing much else besides a decent whack of Minor White photographs), cheap, enticing Ethiopian and Vietnamese foods. Lucky to be there just before the weather turned. Maria Damon, Mark Novak and Leslie Denney (among others) put a strong, sometimes too decision-racked schedule together. Delegates were enabled to elect for all papers, less poets / or more poets, less papers. A split that bears healing. Still, it was a place to meet and exchange even though important issues were neutralised for the duration. Prize for most referenced works goes jointly to: Theresa Hak-Kyung Cha's 'Dictee' (I'd add Walter Lew's equally extraordinary response) and Nathaniel Mackay (whose CD of 'Strick:Song of the Andoumboulou 16-25' deserves wide appreciation) Along with David Kellogg's report on Poetics (and an otherwise curious silence on that list) I valued the presence and contributions of: - Fred Wah, Jeff Derkson and Roy Miki's papers under Canadian 'multiculturalism' (from which many salutary lessons can be brought into the UK context, particularly with regards imminent developments in official policy here) and their 'readings' from which a bevy of book recommendations: Fred's 'Diamond Grill' and 'Alley Alley Home Free' Jeff's 'Dwell' Roy's 3 recent issues of West Coast Line magazine, of which I'd stronglyly recommend 'Transporting the Emporium' (Hong Kong Art & Writing Through The Ends of Time). An indespensible collection. - readings by Julie Patton, Susan Wheeler and Jen Hofer: Susan's 'Bag 'O' Diamonds' is from University of Georgia and worth tracking down. - Kamau Brathwaite's talk / reading was worth the trip alone. His current layout work employing full range of computer typographies is a great pleasure - and a great weaseling body of work to bridge bigotted divides between tendencies. Check out Hambone (no.10) to see what i mean. From, 134 Hunolt Stree, Santa Cruz, California 95060 - presentation by Erik Belgum and Brian West of VOYS (CD mag). first issue is Ray Federman (i'm slow to catch up with Federman, but am now thick into the excellent 'Take It Or Leave It' which has a revised edition out from the Fiction Collective) reading 'Voice In The Closet' a must buy full reading of signal text and upcoming issues are equally strong. 'Exploring the dimensions of speech . . . of sign in sound.' High production values. Sub Rates (2 CDs / year) $32 from uk. Suscribe to Voys, PO Box 580547. Minneapolis. MN 55458. USA - papers by Alan Golding 'Po-Biz, Cult.Stud., and Avant-Gardes?' (including a prolonged meditation on 'X' in post-war US writing) + Loretta Collins 'Trouble It: Rebel/Revel Soundspace in the Caribbean Diaspora' + Yunte Huang 'Charlie Chang vs Ezra Pound: Modern Conceptions of the Chinese Language' all helped to assuage pangs left by reprehensible muffins and a chronic milk shortage for the stewed coffee port. - finally a book that came my way out of a meal with the author (whose everythig else i'd missed - that's often the irritating way with conferences) that i've not seen mentioned before but which i'd recommend is: Hilton Obenzinger's 'New York on Fire', a delightfully assembled chronicle of fires that have ravaged New York ever since. Somehow reminded me of Paul Metcalf who was another ghost presence at XCP - to whit the new journal XCP (cross cultural poetics) edited by Mark Nowak with work by Amiri Barak, Maria Damon, Lise McCloud, Solomon Deressa, Walter Lew, Ofelia Zepreda, Elizabeth Burns, Edwin Torres and others. Contact Mark via manowak@stkate,edu to subscribe. It's worth subscribing to now. And considering contributing to. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Over the top home Halloween installations (ghosts crossing and re-crossing the porch, blooming luminous from cupboards like cuckoos, chair-size pumpkins), the Snoopy theme park that forms the centrepiece of the Mall of America, cross street raised glass walkways, inner city reservations (with some of the highest infant mortality levels in the world). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- After all that I arrived in Buffalo just in time to preface a reading from Caroline Bergvall with the first outing for 'Double Sky Hope's Locker' (out now from SVP). Caroline read a strong set featuring 'In Situ', 'Don't Push It', from the work she's been calling 'Greek Myth Since Freud' and a pithy sequence on bilingualism she's been writing 'on the road'. Next day we picked our hangovers to hear Steve McCaffery's bravura lecture on 'Text, Lay-out and Memory' during which he took Derrida's logo-centrism to task, set out to reclaim so-called illuminated manuscripts from art historians by dint of proving that the 'illustrations' instead formed part of a working grammatalogy - were writing 'in other words' - that letters were highly motivated and that Mary Carruthers takes what Frances Yates opened on memory to fresh heights. All eyes out for the MIT anthology from Steve in the New Year. I'm paraphrasing a rangey and procative talk wildly here. London, Ontario has its own Oxford Steet and River Thames. Also some fine neon signage in sans-serif fonts 'Live Lobsters - Now Hiring', that sort of thing. Five (exluding myself, although i got an honourary form of membership) of the now infamous Buffalo School of Homophonic Translation read in the Forest City Gallery - organised by Peter Jaeger, Tom Orange and Kevin Hehir. There was a full house, including members of the aging but very much still active Nihilist Spasm Band. Taylor Brady, Scott Pound, Bill Howe, Eleni Stecopoulos and Mike Kelleher are all strong readers with distinctive work. A younger grouping and 'on the move'. Eleni, Taylor, and myself all joined Bill in a preview of the overture from his opera, bringing the evening to a rebarbitive finale. We gave local radio interviews to a fresh-faced dictaphone low on batteries and the event will be marked by a selection from all in Rampike. Finally McCaffery and myself (realising it was almost 20 years to the day since the 11th Sound Poetry Festival in Toronto) opened a joint show of visual work in the Cornershop gallery, Buffalo (a guerilla show put on by Bill Howe - who with Scott Pound edits the also excellent Essex Magazine of visual poetics, 2 issues available to date - and who paid homage to boxes of Alphabits [best language trauma Marlon Brando as The Godfather image of the decade award], read a longish poem and performed a piece we'd put together that week on his letterpress). Steve's work was effectively a thirty year retrospective showing the diversity and sustained attack of hisvisual / spatial poetics practices. He performed the whole of Carnival panel 2, for the first time. A solo tear de fierce, major. I read some 'f o gs', did some punch & judy Beefheart on the megaphone and a solo version of 'you see the sights but you don't see the struggle it's a struggle to see it's kept out of sight' with rusty metal thumb clickers. Wine floored. There was bird chitter. Carnivalesque revelry broke out until late, followed by a champagne, dry martini and bloody mary brunch. Touring could certainly put paid to me! then - as you know by now, hurrying for the London double 'things' went 'orribly 'wrong'. My additional thanks to everyone involved in these events. Wishing there was more corporeal cross-pond traffic. love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 14:44:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: bertram Subject: Re: Nominations please MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > for best poetics catch phrase of the year > (10 words or less, easily printed on banners) "Objects in the mirror are exactly as they appear", Fred Eaglesmith bertram mourits ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:01:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Nominations please In-Reply-To: <345BB0C7.5A04@uclink4.berkeley.edu> from "bertram" at Nov 1, 97 02:44:23 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > for best poetics catch phrase of the year > > (10 words or less, easily printed on banners) > > "Objects in the mirror are exactly as they appear", Fred Eaglesmith "I got a rock." (Charlie Brown) c. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 15:09:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Re: Nominations please In-Reply-To: <199711012301.PAA19596@fraser> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> > for best poetics catch phrase of the year >> > (10 words or less, easily printed on banners) Yo mo fo no mo po mo! --Rappers For a Unified Self ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:48:45 -0500 Reply-To: knimmo@ic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kurt Nimmo Organization: PNG Poetry Online Subject: In Memory of Hans Ebner Comments: To: God's Bar & Grill News/Reviews , Ron Androla , jim chandler , Vittorio Curtoni , Harry Calhoun , IMPETUS@aol.com, Al Berlinski , Anthony Boyd , Beau Blue , Brian Clark , c earl nelson , Ccandd96@aol.com, Christy Sanford , d creighton , Diane Marie Ward , Doug Mumm , Holly Anne Holden , James Daniels , Jay Marvin , Larry Oberc x5157 , LeeAnn Heringer , MEstabr815@aol.com, Richard Soos , mmichael@olywa.net, robert drake , Robert Luttrell , Zero Tolerance , knimmo@ic.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PNG POETY ONLINE has published: A TRIBUTE TO HANS EBNER: 1945 - 1997 http://ic.net/~knimmo/ebner/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 02:40:35 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Ebner MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Copied from the Zero City poetry list: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ PNG POETY ONLINE has published: A TRIBUTE TO HANS EBNER: 1945 - 1997 http://ic.net/~knimmo/ebner/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Layne ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 08:34:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: oza MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII with gratitude I stand before you wall. with wind two bottles can't for a moment help but window speech: with gratitude stands forth: tearful stage set held in helpless splay gaze. withness enthralled under simple weather. without unfolds into with in, father uncle inside gone way. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:59:24 -0500 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R. Gancie" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Sokal Juke MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark: Being a book dealer, on Wednesday I purchased a fairly large group (26 boxes) of psychoanalytic titles from a retiring psychoanalyst. I had told a number of my customers who are psychoanalysts that I would likely have some of the material available for sale on Saturday. So as they trickled in and we talked I mentioned that you had insisted that medical doctors and psychoanalysts were not scientists. To a person they protested your characterization. They cited their long medical training and its obvious adherence to the scientific method. Some also mentioned diagnostic and pharmacological functions as requiring their skills as scientists. My store is just two miles from the National Institutes of Health where many M.D.s some of them psychoanalysts take part in 'scientific' research, including epidemiology. Not far from my house at Fort Detrick scientists have spent decades fabricating plagues in a laboratory. On the matter of my paranoia at least one of my customers, good naturedly, suggested that you had a point but hastened to add that his was not a professional diagnosis and that you had not defined your term. On the specific nature of my paranoia concerning corporate funding for reactionary intellectual agendas, I am indeed in suspect comapny, for example Stanley Fish and his book, There's No Such Thing As Free Speech--remaindered $6.98. Another inmate however is James A. Smith, the author of the Idea Brokers, Free Press, $24.95, a study of the history and development of think tanks and foundations and their sources for funding. Here in D.C. I am surrounded by these corporate funded think tanks and foundations which are predominately conservative and many downright reactionary. They DO serve as financial and publishing conduits for everyone I mentioned in my earlier E-mail. Smith's is one of a number of excellent books on this subject and their authors are not generally considered paranoid. Neither is Fish for that matter; he has suffered many attacks from the same sources Smith sites. I guess by association I could claim that I'm not paranoid; but if I am I came by it honestly and as the doctor said it's not clinical.---Carlo Parcelli P.S. The Smith book really is useful. His work on game theory, systems analysis, operations research et al and its connection with big defense oriented budgets is particularly good. For the consequences of the mating of game theory et al with the military try the Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam. This book of course has particular import for people of my generation. I think that it is important to remember that the Deconstruction movement got a great deal of impetus from the student strikes of 1968, a time in France of tremendous political and social repression. PPS: My bookstore is considered one of the best stores in the city for scientific books especially physics and math. Scientists who venture into my used book shop are often stunned by the quality of the books that I carry on the sciences especially if I've been fortunate enough to recently have purchased a good library. Some of the people on this list have shopped at my store and I'm certain that they will attest to the excellent nature of the selection in all areas. I acquired the ability to buy at this level by reading the product. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 19:22:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Sokal Juke In-Reply-To: <345CA35B.34CA@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Psychoanalysts think that psychoanalysis is scientific. Astrologers feel that way about astrology. No one except psychoanalysts and their patients think it's a science, which doesn't mean that it's never helpful. Some doctors, even psychiatrists, are also scientists. Many diagnose and apply treatment as if reading from a cookbook, many practice herbal medicine and homeopathy as well as what they've learned in med school (this is becoming more common as the profession feels the insurance squeeze, and it's being sold to doctors as a cure for their economic woes. Apparently the many doctors who succumb to temptation didn't have very secure scientific training). People outside the profession often don't realize that most psychiatrists are not psychoanalysts. Your psychoanalytically-inclined customers defended their claim to science by citing non-psychoanalytic psychiatric procedures. I was a psychiatric social worker in agency and private practice for 15 years. I knew lots of psychoanalysts, and I diagnosed hundreds of patients. Here's a diagnostic story. An MD sent a diabetic woman to a clinic where I worked because she refused to give herself her insulin shots. She complained that they made her feel bad, reporting symptoms which he interpreted as psychosomatic. The visiting nurse managed to talk her into letting her administer the shot at home every day, but that was getting expensive and the woman still complained. The visiting nurse thought she was after attention. The usually sensible psychiatrists on our staff had all kinds of theories about the symbolic meaning of needles. I got the case. The woman appeared slightly bizarre, but not so's you'd cross the street to avoid her. I asked her what she meant when she said that the shots made her feel bad. She described hypoglycemia. I called her doctor, he lowered her insulin dose, and she started giving herself her own injections. Her bizarreness, a product of her hypoglycemia, also disappeared. A ten minute cure. We spent a fruitful 6 months working through the fallout of her recent divorce for her and her children. It's nice talking about triumphs, and I wish it were always that easy. In this case a lot of folks trained in the scientific method had failed to apply Occam's Razor. Given a little more time they would have succeeded in killing the patient. Here's another one. My wife's leg was exposed to toxic chemicals at work. Lesions formed and began to suppurate. Our doctor insisted it couldn't be a burn, treated her with antibiotics, when she got worse hospitalized her and treated her with IV antibiotics. These didn't help. He had her seen by a rheumatologist who immediately diagnosed her with Lupus. When the tests came back it was clear she didn't have lupus, so he diagnosed her with another form of immune system deficit based on an elevated protease inhibitor. I went to the books, and also to another doctor. Depressed amounts of that protease inhibitor are the indication for the condition he had diagnosed; an elevated amount is typical in cases of chemical burns. My wife did eventually get better because we took case management into our own hands. All those doctors were trained in the scientific method. This was not a particularly subtle case. The chemical exposure was known. And it looked like a burn. When we finally got her to a dermatologist he asked where she'd gotten the burn. Everybody has had run-ins with careless or seriously inept doctors. This was a whole medical class-worth. They would all claim they were scientists. As it happens, I am qualified to diagnose paranoia, but I would never make a serious diagnosis of anything beyond tendencies in that direction without more information and preferably at least one face-to-face meeting. Of course, I'd never ask someone on a shopping trip to diagnose me, either, whatever his qualifications. It's important to distinguish between the awareness that there are bad things in the world (and people, even classes, with bad motives doing them) and the construction of systems based on conspiracies that would seem so elaborate that they would fall of their own weight. (Your appeal to the zeitgeist is more convincing, but would need to be fleshed out a bit to make a serious claim to explaining the historical context of deconstructivism.) Paranoia is not a series of ideas, it's a thought pattern. I'm real fond of Occam's Razor. That's it for me. I shouldn't call you crazy, and you shouldn't defend your sanity, in public. And I think we may have taken enough of the list's time. I look forward to browsing your bookstore when I have the chance. Of course, I'll use an assumed name. At 10:59 AM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >Mark: Being a book dealer, on Wednesday I purchased a fairly large group >(26 boxes) of psychoanalytic titles from a retiring psychoanalyst. I had >told a number of my customers who are psychoanalysts that I would likely >have some of the material available for sale on Saturday. So as they >trickled in and we talked I mentioned that you had insisted that medical >doctors and psychoanalysts were not scientists. To a person they >protested your characterization. They cited their long medical training >and its obvious adherence to the scientific method. Some also mentioned >diagnostic and pharmacological functions as requiring their skills as >scientists. My store is just two miles from the National Institutes of >Health where many M.D.s some of them psychoanalysts take part in >'scientific' research, including epidemiology. Not far from my house at >Fort Detrick scientists have spent decades fabricating plagues in a >laboratory. >On the matter of my paranoia at least one of my customers, good >naturedly, suggested that you had a point but hastened to add that his >was not a professional diagnosis and that you had not defined your term. >On the specific nature of my paranoia concerning corporate funding for >reactionary intellectual agendas, I am indeed in suspect comapny, for >example Stanley Fish and his book, There's No Such Thing As Free >Speech--remaindered $6.98. Another inmate however is James A. Smith, the >author of the Idea Brokers, Free Press, $24.95, a study of the history >and development of think tanks and foundations and their sources for >funding. Here in D.C. I am surrounded by these corporate funded think >tanks and foundations which are predominately conservative and many >downright reactionary. They DO serve as financial and publishing >conduits for everyone I mentioned in my earlier E-mail. Smith's is one >of a number of excellent books on this subject and their authors are not >generally considered paranoid. Neither is Fish for that matter; he has >suffered many attacks from the same sources Smith sites. I guess by >association I could claim that I'm not paranoid; but if I am I came by >it honestly and as the doctor said it's not clinical.---Carlo Parcelli >P.S. The Smith book really is useful. His work on game theory, systems >analysis, operations research et al and its connection with big defense >oriented budgets is particularly good. For the consequences of the >mating of game theory et al with the military try the Perfect War: >Technowar in Vietnam. This book of course has particular import for >people of my generation. I think that it is important to remember that >the Deconstruction movement got a great deal of impetus from the student >strikes of 1968, a time in France of tremendous political and social >repression. >PPS: My bookstore is considered one of the best stores in the city for >scientific books especially physics and math. Scientists who venture >into my used book shop are often stunned by the quality of the books >that I carry on the sciences especially if I've been fortunate enough to >recently have purchased a good library. Some of the people on this list >have shopped at my store and I'm certain that they will attest to the >excellent nature of the selection in all areas. I acquired the ability >to buy at this level by reading the product. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:03:35 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Nominations please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > > for best poetics catch phrase of the year > > > (10 words or less, easily printed on banners) "There is so much violence yet to be done." -- Kapka Kassabova ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:03:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 31 Oct 1997 to 1 Nov 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Re: >Hi, > >The Cross-Cultural Poetics Conference in Minneapolis cris, your travelogue is exemplary. Susan Wheeler wheeler@is.nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:45:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Who is this POE guy anyway? (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One of my other secret identities is as a library type. On one of the library listservs, I found the post quoted below... Mark P. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:17:49 -0800 From: Troy Farnham Reply-To: libsup-l@u.washington.edu To: libsup-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Who is this POE guy anyway? This can be considered a weird and scary reference question. Yesterday I had a student ask me if I could help her find information on Edgar Allen Poe. She told me that "I don't know much about him except that he won a Grammy or something." I'm happy to say that she was better informed when she left our library. Troy Farnham Library Technician II Alan Thompson Library Lower Columbia College 1600 Maple PO BOX 3010 Longview, WA 98362 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:12:32 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: n/formation 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT announcing the 2nd issue of n/formation, an online zine of "innovative" poetry/poetics. work this time around from Joe Amato Sheila Murphy Joel Kuszai Rachel Daley plus a "featured chapbook" from Charles Alexander & Steven Marks' review of Clarice Lispector's Selected Cronicas. follow the "current" link @ http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce/ best, Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. / nominative press collective email: calexand@library.utah.edu snail-mail: P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 press site: http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:19:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Request for Giorno Comments: To: Layne Russell In-Reply-To: <345BE823.7CC8@sonic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is anyone able to supply me with a URL or, better yet, an e-mail address for John Giorno Poetry Systems? I'm researching a project and any info is helpful. Thanks... Patrick F. Durgin |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:37:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Who is this POE guy anyway? (fwd) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" wasn't that the same year that Rimbaud won a Fulbright? Laughing, Brent At 10:45 AM 11/3/97 -0500, you wrote: >One of my other secret identities is as a library type. On one of the >library listservs, I found the post quoted below... > >Mark P. > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:17:49 -0800 >From: Troy Farnham >Reply-To: libsup-l@u.washington.edu >To: libsup-l@u.washington.edu >Subject: Who is this POE guy anyway? > >This can be considered a weird and scary reference question. > >Yesterday I had a student ask me if I could help her find information on >Edgar Allen Poe. > >She told me that "I don't know much about him except that he won a Grammy or >something." > >I'm happy to say that she was better informed when she left our library. > >Troy Farnham >Library Technician II >Alan Thompson Library >Lower Columbia College >1600 Maple >PO BOX 3010 >Longview, WA 98362 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:40:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Other Poetics Lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone aware of any other poetics lists that may be out there? Thanks, Brent Long ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 13:02:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Poetry reading by Mullen and Singleton Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" On Monday, Nov. 24, at 7:30 PM, there will be a poetry reading by Harryette Mullen and giovanni singleton at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles (over by LAX). The reading will be held at the McIntosh Center in Sullivan Hall. Wanted to give early notice to all LA folk on this list -- will post fuller info with directions when the date nears -- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:04:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Poetry reading by Mullen and Singleton In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971103130253.00698804@popmail.lmu.edu> from "Aldon Nielsen" at Nov 3, 97 01:02:53 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just a plug for Harryette - the reading she did at Temple was wonderful. An interview that Farah Griffin, Kristen Gallagher and I did with her while she was in Philly will be available somewhere soon at which point I'll let y'all know. -Mike. According to Aldon Nielsen: > > On Monday, Nov. 24, at 7:30 PM, there will be a poetry reading by Harryette > Mullen and giovanni singleton at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles > (over by LAX). The reading will be held at the McIntosh Center in Sullivan > Hall. Wanted to give early notice to all LA folk on this list -- will post > fuller info with directions when the date nears -- > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:36:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jean Day Subject: Harryette Mullen, Jean Day, Ann Veronica Simon reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For SF Bay Area folks-- I've been off the list for several months for lack of time, so apologies if this reading's already been announced: Harryette Mullen, Jean Day, and Ann Veronica Simon at UC Berkeley, Nov. 4, 8 pm, in the Maude Fife Room, 315 Wheeler Hall, UCB, reception following. Cheers, Jean Day ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:00:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Wordrobe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Highly recommended: WORDROBE a show of clothes with words curated by Richard Martin at the The Costume Institute Metropolitan Museum of Art NYC through Nov. 23 *** worth a detour ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:40:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: mi muertos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What a drag -- so many gone this year, among those who taught & delighted me, & now, after Ginsie & Burroughs, it's SAM FULLER doing his final cut. Sam was one of the funniest, most gloriously impish & irreverent, best & fastest talking (probably the only person I know able to outjaw David Antin), most generous & honest persons it was my pleasure to have known. & the movies & the books! The only guy who made successful B-movies in Hollywood with politics like no one else dared to do in the fifties & when he had to leave settled in Paris, wrote scripts & stories & novels, undaunted, undauntable, pounding away on an old mechanical typewriter all day long, then went back to Hollywood when given a chance, made WHITE DOG which Paramount was so freaked out about (it dealt head-on with racism) that they kept it shelved for twelve years. He had started by making 2 of the finest, strangest westerns -- the first one from the p-o-v of the killer of Jessie James (& he always wanted to do another one on the James gang, their sexualities, especially) & later made CRIMSON KOMONO (2 detectives in L.A. -- one white, one Japanese American -- looking for the bad guy, meeting the blond bombshell & it is the japanese-american who walks away with the lady at the end -- an unheard of thing for a middle fifties movie), & then there is SHOCK CORRIDOR & a dozen others, with the best war movies, so profoundly accurate that they are anti-war movies & he was only allowed to do them by leaning heavy on the fact that he had been there & seen it & that they were accurate. And PICK UP ON SOUTH STREET, which freaked J Edgar Hoover out because of the American anti-hero's total disdain for FBI pressure re patriotism, so much so that J Edgar called Fuller & tried to get him to change the dialogue or else... That same movie was felt to be so "anti-communist" by the French (whose stalinist Communist Party controlled the film distribution system in France in those days) that the dialogue of the French version was totally rewritten, turning a political spy/pick-pocket story into a pure gangster movie, which didn't make any sense anymore. 'Nuff said. I cld go on for hours -- did, some ten years ago, an oral (auto)biography of Sam for French radio (still have the original reel-to-reel tapes & will some day put together an English version if a station over here is interested). One anecdote before closing: one night -- in fact it was the night of the day Orson Welles died, we found out driving home -- Fuller & I had dinner in a Chinese restaurant (the only kind he liked, even in Paris) & he tried to convince me that besides writing poetry I should make films. I told him I didn't have a clue. So he said: "You don't need one, you're a writer; to make a good movie all you need is a good story -- the rest is easy -- directors, actors are a dime a dozen, all of 'em -- nothing to it -- but without a good story you're dead. It's the writers who are the important ones.." Then there was the story of how, the day of the Cuban embargo, Yul Brynner bribed his (Sam's) tobacconist & sneaked into Sam's humidor & made away with all his Cuban cigars, and then there are the 1000 other stories I can still hear him telling. Go out & rent one of his flicks -- or get Godard's "Pierrot le Fou" in which he plays himself (briefly) or Wenders' 'The American Friend" where he plays a mafioso (& which also stars Nicholas Ray & Dennis Hopper). Hope they have a good supply of Cuban cee-gars wherever he's off to. Pierre -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think there is a world market for about five computers.' -Thomas J. Watson Chairman of the Board-IBM, 1943 ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:44:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Bouchard's new address (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I meant to send this out last week but it slipped by already slippery mind. Perhaps I already did so-- jk ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 08:24:03 -0500 From: Marcella To: "'poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu'" Subject: Bouchard's new address I just heard from Dan that yes he has moved & as he can't rejoin the list right now has given me the definitive address for anyone who wants to contact him: Dan Bouchard P.O. Box 390408 Cambridge, MA 02139 bouchard@mit.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 12:20:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Issa Clubb Subject: Re: mi muertos In-Reply-To: <345E7D08.D4D21C24@cnsunix.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >SAM FULLER This is a giant loss; really a great, weird filmmaker. >Go out & rent one of his flicks -- or get Godard's "Pierrot le Fou" in >which he plays himself (briefly) or Wenders' 'The American Friend" >where he plays a mafioso (& which also stars Nicholas Ray & Dennis >Hopper). Also, if you can find it (I know it's at Kim's, for those of you in NYC), there's a fantastic movie called "Tigrero: A Film That Was Never Made" that you have to see. It's a documentary Jim Jarmusch made in 1994, accompanying Sam Fuller to the same tiny village in the Amazon rainforest where he had tried to make a movie (Tigrero, natch) some 50 years before -- I believe it failed because they couldn't get insurance. All the villagers remember him, he gets this big smile around his cigar and tells stories about John Wayne, Hollywood in the forties & fifties, studio politics, etc. -- it's totally great. The scene where Fuller screens the footage he did shoot, and the villagers see relatives long since gone, is very emotionally powerful and is maybe now, sadly, parallel to the act of watching Fuller tell dirty jokes in his lovely, raspy voice. --issa _________________________________ Issa Clubb Criterion Collection Art Dept. mailto:issa@voyagerco.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:41:59 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: What? Isabel Ringing wasn't available for a quote? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This from an article about the East Bay's Hayward Fault in the San Francisco Chronicle October 14, page A8 The "right here" in the quote refers to "the University of California's 1923-vintage Memorial Stadium": "'I hope I'm right here when it happens, man. I want to see the carnage,' grinned Ben Dover, 32, as he sat in the stands with four buddies late one afternoon, cooling down after a bicycle ride. 'Just imagine - with about 70,000 capacity seats here, you'd see flames, you'd see bodies, the whole nine yards. I like stuff like that' "His friends rolled their eyes and chuckled." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:25:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Soko Loco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark weiss wrote: Psychoanalysts think that psychoanalysis is scientific. Astrologers feel that way about astrology. No one except psychoanalysts and their patients think it's a science, which doesn't mean that it's never helpful. Some doctors, even psychiatrists, are also scientists. Many diagnose and apply treatment as if reading from a cookbook, many practice herbal medicine and homeopathy as well as what they've learned in med school (this is becoming more common as the profession feels the insurance squeeze, and it's being sold to doctors as a cure for their economic woes. Apparently the many doctors who succumb to temptation didn't have very secure scientific training. which is to say that Poets think that poetry is metamorphic. Novelists feel that way about novels. No one except poets and their readers think it's a metaphor, which doesn't mean that it's never helpful. Some writers, even poets, are also metamorphists. Many diagnose and apply images as if reading from a cookbook, many practice lurid imagery and metaphysics as well as what they've learned in grad school (this is becoming more common as the profession feels the electronic squeeze, and it's being sold to poets as a cure for their economic woes. Apparently the many poets who succumb to temptation didn't have very secure metamorphic training. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:05:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: sleep of poetics the list seems really dead lately. I guess it goes through these phases. people are busy with school, etc. But it's down to a few bleeps, queries, notices. People are backchanneling, now cut that out! I wonder if it's dead for good? I'm sure everybody has their own opinion. Here's a topic(s) for discussion, maybe? POETRY, ART & SOCIAL JUSTICE The NEA debate is just one element of what seems to have been a de-funding of the arts over a long period now. I live in a semi-rundown urban school district where the arts are simply not even near a priority. If we think that social equity should include some access to the tools & traditions of re-imagining reality through art, we are in sad shape. There was a big op-ed piece in the Times a few weeks ago by I-forget-who saying the defunding of NEA is probably a good idea because art is fundamentally based on extraordinary individual talent & subjecting it to the democratic levelling process only hurts the art. This seems like a sad attitude. There should be some sensible middle ground which recognizes the value of the arts & provides some means to pursuing it from primary school up. So I'm interested in hearing from people out there who deal with poetry and dramatic arts in the school systems as a way of providing some of this foundation AND ALSO providing tools for young people to counteract mass media commercial stereotyping of reality. Anybody out there doing anything like that? Might be something to talk about in relation to a "poetics"... [I know this is a career for some people...] anybody feel like gabbing a little? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 14:50:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Soko Loco In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think I get it. 1) I write cadenced prose. Thank you! 2) Any noun can be substituted for any other noun and the sentence will still appear to make sense, or at least express an opinion. A true revelation! At 10:25 AM 11/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >mark weiss wrote: > >Psychoanalysts >think that psychoanalysis >is scientific. > >Astrologers feel >that way about > astrology. > >No one except >psychoanalysts and their patients >think it's a science, which doesn't mean > >that it's never helpful. Some >doctors, > even psychiatrists, > are also scientists. Many >diagnose >and apply > > treatment > as if reading >from a cookbook, > > many >practice herbal medicine and >homeopathy as well as > >what they've learned in med school >(this is becoming > more common > >as the profession feels the insurance > squeeze, > and it's being sold > > >to doctors >as a cure for their economic woes. Apparently >the many > > doctors who succumb >to temptation didn't >have very secure scientific training. > > >which is to say that > > >Poets think that poetry >is metamorphic. > Novelists feel > >that way about > novels. >No one except poets > > and their readers >think it's a metaphor, >which doesn't mean > >that it's never helpful. Some writers, > even poets, >are also metamorphists. Many > >diagnose >and apply > images as if reading > >from a cookbook, many >practice > lurid imagery and > >metaphysics as well as >what > they've learned in grad school > > (this is becoming > more common >as the profession feels the electronic > > squeeze, >and it's being sold >to poets > >as a cure for their economic woes. >Apparently the many >poets who succumb > to temptation didn't >have very secure >metamorphic training. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:35:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: sleep of poetics In-Reply-To: henry gould "sleep of poetics" (Nov 4, 4:05pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 4, 4:05pm, henry gould wrote: > Subject: sleep of poetics > the list seems really dead lately. I guess it goes through these phases. > people are busy with school, etc. But it's down to a few bleeps, queries, > notices. People are backchanneling, now cut that out! I wonder if it's > dead for good? I'm sure everybody has their own opinion. > > Here's a topic(s) for discussion, maybe? > > POETRY, ART & SOCIAL JUSTICE > > The NEA debate is just one element of what seems to have been a de-funding > of the arts over a long period now. I live in a semi-rundown urban school > district where the arts are simply not even near a priority. If we think > that social equity should include some access to the tools & traditions of > re-imagining reality through art, we are in sad shape. There was a big op-ed > piece in the Times a few weeks ago by I-forget-who saying the defunding of > NEA is probably a good idea because art is fundamentally based on extraordinary > individual talent & subjecting it to the democratic levelling process only > hurts the art. This seems like a sad attitude. There should be some sensible > middle ground which recognizes the value of the arts & provides some means > to pursuing it from primary school up. > > So I'm interested in hearing from people out there who deal with poetry > and dramatic arts in the school systems as a way of providing some of > this foundation AND ALSO providing tools for young people to counteract > mass media commercial stereotyping of reality. Anybody out there doing > anything like that? Might be something to talk about in relation to > a "poetics"... [I know this is a career for some people...] > anybody feel like gabbing a little? - Henry Gould >-- End of excerpt from henry gould Henry, Know how you feel right now. I have been a very active lurker of late. Does that count for anything? The list server has been a little slow, especially late last week when i had some posts temporarily held up in the server. >the defunding of >NEA is probably a good idea because art is fundamentally based on extraordinary >individual talent & subjecting it to the democratic levelling process only >hurts the art. This is a lame epitaph isn't it? I say epitaph since one is implied by the journalist (probably best remembered as I-forget-who) who wrote the thing. But the feds are hell-bent on wrecking funding for the arts and arts education, and so the only viable alternative (regarding your angle in this discussion) is volunteerism. Where I work, they regularly ask for volunteers to tutor local kids, but always it is in math or science since this is an engineering design/manufacturing facility in South Florida. I would be a good idea to ask those who oversee this program to expand our role to include the arts and literature. Ironically enough, it was a retired volunteer at my high school who tutored me in electronics in auto repair shop! I suppose involvement in the local poetry readings in bookstores, or wherever, is another way to support youth poetry. William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: sleep of poetics In-Reply-To: henry gould "sleep of poetics" (Nov 4, 4:05pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Be careful what you say. Your post may be cannibalized and converted into a poem. - signed William Burmeister with mushrooms in a red wine sauce ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:59:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Sleep of poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" It's a poser: I'm more active on the list when I'm most busy, because it's a useful break if I'm chained to the computer anyway. Anything that puts food in the mouths of poets and other artists or affords them some recognition is to the good. On the other hand, I think that the NEA's tack has not been the most effective way to help the arts find an audience. I remember the poor benighted teachers who were forced to teach poetry or art or music and had no love for their subject. What they taught was that poetry is a stupid kind of riddle, museums are boring storage houses for the best depictions of reality our ancestors could come by before the centerfold, and music other than rock sucks. In other words, they conveyed what they really felt, whatever the words might be that came out of their mouths. What if the NEA spent its money teaching people to love the arts or recruiting teachers who do? While that might force some belt-tightening for the present, wouldn't it help seed the future? I am haunted by the idea of the German coal and steel town of Wupperthalthat funds with its taxes the Wupperthaler danzteater, surely one of the most challenging and best performance companies around. I'm told the locals take a pride in it that we tend to reserve for basketball teams. Somehow these workers got the idea that it was alright to like these extremely strange and sometimes painful events. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:55:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: FW: Codex Alimentarius MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Dear Listopolitans - a heads up from Ralph Metzner re: yet another insidious new bill being rushed thru Congress which will further curtail our liberties, to wit, regulating our access to vitamins, herbal supplements, etc. Thanks, Patrick Pritchett _______ Dear All -- "Health-minded Americans are presently facing the greatest threat to the freedom of health choice ever before encountered, through an organization known as the UN/WHO CODEX... The Codex is in reality an underhanded, politically motivated, weakly disguised attempt by the international pharmaceutical cartel to limit access to many popular, safe and cost-effective nutritional and herbal supplements in order to take control of the alternative healthcare industry." (from a letter by Mitchell Fleischer, MD, Univ. of Virginia) It's part of the more general take-over of the global economy by the multinationals through WTO, courtesy of GATT and NAFTA. Read On.... >YOU MAY LOSE THE RIGHT TO YOUR VITAMINS, HERBS, AND OTHER SUPPLEMENTS IN >LESS THAN TWO WEEKS!!! > >An insidious bill, called the CODEX LAW or CODEX ALIMENTARIUS, has already >been sneaked through both the Senate and the House of Representatives in >record time. It has been passed by both houses. The Codex is a nutrition >code to set worldwide standards for foods, drugs, pesticides and their >trade. The latest German proposal includes the following provisions: > >1. No vitamin, mineral, herb or food supplement can be sold for >preventative or therapeutic use. >2. None sold as a food can exceed dosage levels set by the Commission. >For example, 50 mg of vitamin C is the top dosage sold in Germany today. >3. CODEX regulations for dietary supplements would become legally binding >in the USA through the GATT Treaty, which would involve enormous fines in >America if we did not comply. >4. All new dietary supplements will be banned unless they pass the CODEX >approval process. You can imagine what that means. > >The wording in the Congressional Bill uses the term "harmonization" which >means that most senators and congresspersons are likely not aware of the >implications. > >The delegates that make up and decide on the CODEX mandates are made up of >90% of the giant Multi-national Pharmaceutical corporations. The drug >companies want to monopolize and create pharmaceutical versions of the >Natural healthfood and nutrient business throughout the world. An example of >the consequences: possession of DHEA is now a felony in Canada with >the same penalty as that for possession of drugs. You could go to jail for >having DHEA in your house. > >You have LESS THAN 10 DAYS to save your vitamins! > >The latest development as of 10/18/97 is that the House and Senate are now >voting on a 3rd merged version of the Codex Bill. (The House Companion >Bill). > >What you need to do now is very simple. > >1. First, pick up your phone and call 1-800-972-3524. This is the >Congressional switchboard. Leave a message for your Senators AND your >Representatives. Request that the Harmonization Language in the FDA Reform >Bill be amended when it goes to the Conference Committee. State that you >oppose to Codex Bill and any attempt to regulate nutritional supplements as >drugs. This committee, as far as we know, will be meeting THIS WEEK, the >week of 10/21. Also state that you request a public comments period >concerning the harmonization agreements. > >2. Please telephone, fax, and email everyone you can think of. Make a >phone tree. Email everyone on your list. Send them this information and >ask them to make calls as well. To stay updated on what to do, email >Jham@concentric.net and request to be put in his distribution list. Or, >call John Hammel at 1-800-333-2553 for a recorded message. Additional numbers to call, fax or write are: Dr. Robert Moore and/or Dr. Elizabeth Yetley, FDA Office of Specific Nutritionals; HFS-456, US FDA; 200 C Str., SW; Washington, DC 20204. Tel:202-205-4168; Fax: 202-205-4168. This is an extremely dangeours development, and the time is urgent. Please do what you can. Ralph Metzner Ralph Metzner, Ph.D. rmetzner@nbn.com Tel: 707-935-7257 Fax: 707-935-8567 Green Earth Foundation, P.O. Box 327, El Verano, CA 95433. Check out our new website: http://www.rmetzner-greenearth.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:59:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >>Anyone aware of any other poetics lists that may be out there? >>Thanks, >Brent Long > There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. And I'm sure there is a discussion list for Irish poetry and literature somewhere. I also run a very small James Merrill list--discussing JM's symbolist poetics of late. What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who don't have a list of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 16:33:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Tate" Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Timothy Materer wrote: > What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for > example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, > Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who > don't have a list > of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > > Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? YES, Yes, yes. I'd be VERY interested in a list that discusses Auden, Crane, Stevens, Moore, H.D., Frost and so on. Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:41:33 +0000 Reply-To: layne@SONIC.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Timothy Materer wrote: > What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for > example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, > Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who > don't have a list > of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > > Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? > > Timothy Materer I am very interested. Layne socopoet list-owner http://www.sonic.net/layne A Quiet Place ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:38:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: sleep of poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As a parent, a poet, and an arts volunteer, I haven't found volunteerism a viable answer to loss of arts funding. There's no long term in it, and it tends to go against the grain of the whole school project. Rather, I have begun to ask: Why is poetry being taught in school? I have come to suspect that the way it is taught precludes any sort of success. Here in Canada at least it is taught as a means of expressing emotions, and moreso (almost entirely) as a means of teaching students rhetoric. Until we get to the point where poetry is taught for poetry's sake, where poetry is used as a rigorous and independent means of ordering or disordering the world, we will all continue to lose funding, because the funding will go to rhetoric (for example) and not to poetry (as it already is). There's just no future in that. As for readings in bookstores or wherever, there's a thought: get the students out of the school and into a community. That is not volunteerism, though. Rather, it is an interesting project. *** William Burmeister wrote: "the feds are hell-bent on wrecking funding for the arts and arts education, and so the only viable alternative (regarding your angle in this discussion) is volunteerism. Where I work, they regularly ask for volunteers to tutor local kids, but always it is in math or science since this is an engineering design/manufacturing facility in South Florida. I would be a good idea to ask those who oversee this program to expand our role to include the arts and literature. Ironically enough, it was a retired volunteer at my high school who tutored me in electronics in auto repair shop! I suppose involvement in the local poetry readings in bookstores, or wherever, is another way to support youth poetry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 17:41:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Soko Loco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Weiss wrote: >I think I get it. 1) I write cadenced prose. Thank you! >2) Any noun can be substituted for any other noun and the sentence will >still appear to make sense, or at least express an opinion. A true revelation! Well, not a revelation maybe, but reading your piece I was struck by the notion that you had written a little poetry generating machine, such a balanced piece of syntax that it could hold most any noun and process it. For what, though, I don't know. I shall ponder that. Language is, I think, having its fun with us. Someone who knew more about programming than I do could set up such a little machine to chug away through the dictionary, like a prayerwheel in Nepal. Harold ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 19:16:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Wupperthal awake! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, If memory serves me right, Wupperthal is not exactly a coal and steel town pure and simple. The example is good, and there are lots of examples of support for the arts in Germany in general (Bochum is renowned for doing Heiner Mueller's plays, and that's no small or easily accessible feat), but Wupperthal (and Bochum) are quite gentrified, or, rather, there is enough of a class mix as to put into question whether it is actually the steelworkers who are going to the Danztheater or the Opel assembly workers who are watching Brecht's legacy (Mueller) onstage. I agree about the problem of messages in classrooms. I like your positive approach. How, though, would the NEA spend its funds teaching people to appreciate the arts? Wouldn't that be through access and relevence? That could be either inside or outside of the classroom. As for recruiting teachers who are inspired and thus inspire, why not hire artists and poets, or train them to be teachers. There's the rub: can the school system bend enough to accomodate them? Note, I didn't say "should" it, of course it should. Mind you, is that the issue: teaching people to appreciate the arts? Don't they already? Whether it is painting their favourite subway car or listening to sweet zounds of Nashville, there is an aesthetic and a response of sorts. Could the issue be better rephrased as: "teaching people a tradition of art" or "teaching people to use a method of art"? The art, in other words, cannot be separate from the approach, or that darned hidden message, the teacher who taught that museums are old meat lockers, etc., will sneak in there and defeat the whole project. I read something about the German State Theatre in Berlin getting awfully radical and dragging in some rough street culture into its productions and in that most conservative of institutions (a national theatre, after all) turning things on their head and making it work. Anybody can turn things on their head, of course, but making it work aesthetically and financially is the challenge. Harold Rhenisch ****** Mark Weiss wrote: Anything that puts food in the mouths of poets and other artists or affords them some recognition is to the good. On the other hand, I think that the NEA's tack has not been the most effective way to help the arts find an audience. I remember the poor benighted teachers who were forced to teach poetry or art or music and had no love for their subject. What they taught was that poetry is a stupid kind of riddle, museums are boring storage houses for the best depictions of reality our ancestors could come by before the centerfold, and music other than rock sucks. In other words, they conveyed what they really felt, whatever the words might be that came out of their mouths. What if the NEA spent its money teaching people to love the arts or recruiting teachers who do? While that might force some belt-tightening for the present, wouldn't it help seed the future? I am haunted by the idea of the German coal and steel town of Wupperthalthat funds with its taxes the Wupperthaler danzteater, surely one of the most challenging and best performance companies around. I'm told the locals take a pride in it that we tend to reserve for basketball teams. Somehow these workers got the idea that it was alright to like these extremely strange and sometimes painful events. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:26:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Wupperthal awake! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, Wupperthal has a middle class, but it's pretty solidly rust belt. My understanding is that Pina Bausch and her commandos really do get the workers in their audience, and that even those who don't attend are willing to spend their tax dollars and have civic pride about the result. I don't have a program in mind, but I don't think there'll ever be enough willing artists to stock the elementary schools. There may be enough, however, to teach the teachers, and enough (not necessarily a majority) of those teachers may become enough enthralled to change the culture of the teacher's lounge. As to what kind of art, what aesthetic experience is opened, I'd be content to define it as whatever they have no access to now, and that means those arts that require a vocabulary, verbal, visual or musical, and some history. And I'm pretty unashamedly elitist about this. I don't think it reactionary to want more people to be capable of experiencing some of the more powerful experiences that human culture has generated. t 07:16 PM 11/4/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mark, > >If memory serves me right, Wupperthal is not exactly a coal and steel town >pure and simple. The example is good, and there are lots of examples of >support for the arts in Germany in general (Bochum is renowned for doing >Heiner Mueller's plays, and that's no small or easily accessible feat), but >Wupperthal (and Bochum) are quite gentrified, or, rather, there is enough >of a class mix as to put into question whether it is actually the >steelworkers who are going to the Danztheater or the Opel assembly workers >who are watching Brecht's legacy (Mueller) onstage. > >I agree about the problem of messages in classrooms. I like your positive >approach. How, though, would the NEA spend its funds teaching people to >appreciate the arts? Wouldn't that be through access and relevence? That >could be either inside or outside of the classroom. As for recruiting >teachers who are inspired and thus inspire, why not hire artists and poets, >or train them to be teachers. There's the rub: can the school system bend >enough to accomodate them? Note, I didn't say "should" it, of course it >should. > >Mind you, is that the issue: teaching people to appreciate the arts? Don't >they already? Whether it is painting their favourite subway car or >listening to sweet zounds of Nashville, there is an aesthetic and a >response of sorts. Could the issue be better rephrased as: "teaching people >a tradition of art" or "teaching people to use a method of art"? The art, >in other words, cannot be separate from the approach, or that darned hidden >message, the teacher who taught that museums are old meat lockers, etc., >will sneak in there and defeat the whole project. > >I read something about the German State Theatre in Berlin getting awfully >radical and dragging in some rough street culture into its productions and >in that most conservative of institutions (a national theatre, after all) >turning things on their head and making it work. Anybody can turn things on >their head, of course, but making it work aesthetically and financially is >the challenge. > >Harold Rhenisch > >****** > >Mark Weiss wrote: >Anything that puts food in the mouths of poets and other artists or affords >them some recognition is to the good. On the other hand, I think that the >NEA's tack has not been the most effective way to help the arts find an >audience. I remember the poor benighted teachers who were forced to teach >poetry or art or music and had no love for their subject. What they taught >was that poetry is a stupid kind of riddle, museums are boring storage >houses for the best depictions of reality our ancestors could come by >before the centerfold, and music other than rock sucks. In other words, >they conveyed what they really felt, whatever the words might be that came >out of their mouths. What if the NEA spent its money teaching people to >love the arts or recruiting teachers who do? While that might force some >belt-tightening for the present, wouldn't it help seed the future? > >I am haunted by the idea of the German coal and steel town of >Wupperthalthat funds with its taxes the Wupperthaler danzteater, surely one >of the most challenging and best performance companies around. I'm told the >locals take a pride in it that we tend to reserve for basketball teams. >Somehow these workers got the idea that it was alright to like these >extremely strange and sometimes painful events. > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:10:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm very interested in WHY that generation doesn't get discussed on CAP-L; maybe they've been dead so long--the famous poets, I mean--that they're no longer considered "c." But I like it when dead poets are discussed on lists. I met Joseph Ceravolo here, for example, and have been smitten ever since. ---Gwyn On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, J. Tate wrote: > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Timothy Materer wrote: > > > What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for > > example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, > > Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who > > don't have a list > > of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > > > > Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? > > YES, Yes, yes. > > I'd be VERY interested in a list that discusses Auden, Crane, Stevens, > Moore, H.D., Frost and so on. > > Joseph Tate > Graduate Student > Department of English > University of Washington > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:14:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists I'm especially interested in Wallace Stevens and William Carlos Williams, but yes, I'd be interested in such a list. I wonder if it would be productive to base the conversation around topics (broad or narrow), or particular authors/poems, at least in the beginning. That way, unlike so many of the postings I've seen on the Pound and Eliot lists, folks would be having truly collaborative discussions, rather than tons of disparate, parallel conversations that are annoying to sample. Aviva Vogel MFA in Writing, Vermont College ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:10:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Soko Loco Oh, Harold! Oh yes! A computer program that would chug away like a Nepalese prayer wheel through the dictionary, slotting words into various syntactical structures! Of course, we can do that endlessly ourselves, without our laptops and CD-Rom drives, but hey! Like an anagram generator, it could be a useful tool (or toy) to jump-start a poetry-writing session (or week or month or year) that's faltering a bit (or a lot). Clever! Enticing! I'll be the first customer! -Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:05:35 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Timothy Materer wrote: snip > What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for > example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, > Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who > don't have a list > of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. don't get me wrong, I like the work of some of these (Stevens, Crane, though which Crane? Hart or Steven, Loy, Williams, Auden, and one of the Moore but not the other) but aren't they well enough discussed? Aren't there already mounds and mounds of discussion of them? I mean, a third rate versifier like Frost is discussed constantly and ubiquitiously from 2nd or 3rd grade until post-doc. Only Mina Loy, of that list, was not included in my junior high school poetry syllabus. (Who is this Hughes person, though? Do you mean Sylvia Plath's ex husband?) It was a public school, too, though things may have changed in the intervening three hundred years, but on the other hand, some of those poets were still alive back then. anyway: Stevens = cornbread-heavy Ashbery Moore = obscure precursor of Alice Notley Crane = obscure precursor of John Wieners Frost = I prefer Kenneth Koch Loy = wonderful Williams = not Oscar, I hope Hughes = place in literary history for abandoning Sylvia Plath Auden = absolutely Moore = Robert Lowell's psychiatrist, supposedly had affair with Lowell's mother, a rather impressive feat. I will now return to lurking ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:30:40 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pam Brown Subject: POet Laureate UK Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hughes = place in literary history for abandoning Sylvia Plath" -said Simon & lately for writing a dreadful eulogy to Lady Diana Spencer... I too will return to lurking Pam ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:09:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: from "Schuchat Simon" at Nov 5, 97 01:05:35 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > don't get me wrong, I like the work of some of these (Stevens, Crane, > though which Crane? Hart or Steven, Loy, Williams, Auden, and one of the > Moore but not the other) but aren't they well enough discussed? Aren't > there already mounds and mounds of discussion of them? i don't understand this point of view at all. are you saying one not discuss these poets because they are too much discussed? carl ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 03:01:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope Has anyone on this list read the following book, and if so, do you have any comments? Thanks, Aviva The Culture of Hope : A New Birth of the Classical Spirit by Frederick TurnerList: $23.00 Our Price: $16.10 You Save: $6.90 (30%) Availability: This title usually ships within 24 hours. Hardcover, 298 pages Published by Free Pr Publication date: February 1, 1995 Dimensions (in inches): 9.57 x 6.43 x 1.14 ISBN: 002932792X (You can always remove it later...) OR Order faster with 1-Click! Aviva Vogel (Post Office) (You can always cancel it later...) Learn about 1-Click ordering Change 1-Click delivery settings Browse other Arts & Music titles. Reviews and Commentary for The Culture of Hope : A New Birth of the Classical Spirit Have you read this book? Write an online review and share your thoughts with other readers. Synopsis: Conservatives complain that much contemporary art is obscene, while liberals reply that art always subverts the social and political orthodoxy. Both are wrong, says Frederick Turner. In this first book to take the "third side" in the culture war, Frederick Turner offers a radically hopeful new vision, based on a cosmology which views nature as intelligent, creative, and self-ordering. From Kirkus Reviews, 03/01/95: Turner recycles some material from earlier university press books for this, his grand synthesis that promises to overcome the stalemate in the culture wars. Proponent of a ``third way'' or ``centrist'' position, Turner (Arts and Humanities/Univ. of Texas, Dallas) rehearses the standard complaints about our culture in crisis. Unlike traditional conservatives, though, he ventures a prescription that goes beyond nostalgia for faith and values. A sober critic of the so-called avant-garde, Turner posits a ``radical center''--``a return to classical forms, genres and techniques in the arts'' that is grounded in the latest research in anthropology and science. Turner fancies his ``reconstructive postmodernism'' a new paradigm on the intellectual horizon, and it's hard to imagine anyone familiar with all the disciplines he brings together in this fascinating, if exhausting, book. A cogent critic of anti-foundationalist thought (be it feminist, Marxist, or linguistic), Turner reaffirms the need for hierarchy in the arts, for logic over force, and for beauty over relativism. His multiculturalism is truly pan-cultural, discovering the transcendent in all cultures. Turner's idea of a ``natural classicism'' is remarkably transparent--he locates classical forms in nature itself. Some of his other ideas are a bit obscure, and his tendency toward unrelieved abstraction will turn off sympathetic readers. Turner's immediate cure for cultural malaise is nothing less than a four-page manifesto that is certain to provoke debate, and his discussion of biology is sure to be used against him, despite his distinctly un-``bell curvish'' ideas. Turner's fictional ``fable for the future''--a brave new world that resembles the utopian cyberspace of the Tofflers--flirts with kookiness. A superb critic of trendy feminist and multicultural ideas, Turner deserves a hearing in the ongoing debate: He's Apollo to Camille Paglia's Dionysus. - ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Subject: FW: Waldrop & Roubaud reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oops, still getting ahold of tricky things like correct addresses & stuff like that, anyway: ---------- From: Marcella Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 7:45 AM To: 'poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu' Subject: Waldrop & Roubaud reading Just wanted to announce for those in the NY area: Rosmarie Waldrop & Jacques Roubaud The Poetry Project St. Mark's Church corner of 2nd ave. & 10th St. It starts at 8 pm; $7, free for members ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:00:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Please let me know, if you know it, the address for the Pound list at Maine. -- JR Foley >>> Timothy Materer 11/04/97 06:59pm >>> > There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. And I'm sure there is a discussion list for Irish poetry and literature somewhere. I also run a very small James Merrill list--discussing JM's symbolist poetics of late. What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who don't have a list of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:50:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: <971104235356_1657854155@emout09.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Aviva Vogel wrote: > > Has anyone on this list read the following book, and if so, do you have any > comments? Thanks, Aviva > > The Culture of Hope : A New Birth of the Classical Spirit > by Frederick TurnerList: $23.00 > Our Price: $16.10 > You Save: $6.90 (30%) I haven't read it. However, if this is the same Frederick Turner who wrote a piece called "The Neural Lyre," then I'm hostilely disposed. "The Neural Lyre" was a defense of metered poetry using neurobiology and was, bar none, the single stupidest essay to have speculated about the relations of science and literature of recent years. I've read some other things of his in which he seems to know something about chaos theory, but it's not enough to redeem him in my eyes. Also, he's written some "epic" poems ("Genesis" and "The New World" I think) which I only read enough of to find repulsive. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:13:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: POet Laureate UK In a message dated 97-11-05 02:23:06 EST, you write: >Hughes = place in literary history for abandoning Sylvia Plath" -said Simon >& lately for writing a dreadful eulogy to Lady Diana Spencer... > >I too will return to lurking > >Pam Simon & Pam need to dig a little deeper. I believe it was Langston being referred to. Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:43:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Foley/Materer: Info for getting on the Pound list can be found on the National Poetry Foundation website Bulletin Board and I list there some other Pound sites, plus a Loy site, and there's also a Marianne Moore list around somewhere. Maybe gopher isn't doing its homework. I maintain the NPF site, & am willing to list or link other sites (primary focus Modernism). Sylvester Pollet, Assoc. Ed. NPF >Please let me know, if you know it, the address for the Pound list at Maine. -- >JR Foley > >>>> Timothy Materer 11/04/97 >06:59pm >>> >> >There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ >Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), >modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, >which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, >for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. And I'm sure there is a >discussion list for Irish poetry and literature somewhere. I also run a >very small >James Merrill list--discussing JM's symbolist poetics of late. > >What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for >example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, >Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who >don't have a list >of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > >Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? > > > >Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department >University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 >http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think a modernist discussion list is a great idea, but how to go about it? Brent At 05:59 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote: >>>Anyone aware of any other poetics lists that may be out there? >>>Thanks, >Brent Long >> >There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ >Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), >modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, >which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, >for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. And I'm sure there is a >discussion list for Irish poetry and literature somewhere. I also run a >very small >James Merrill list--discussing JM's symbolist poetics of late. > >What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for >example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, >Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who >don't have a list >of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > >Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? > > > >Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department >University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 >http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:13:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: <971104230809_1403412919@emout05.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Aviva, I agree completely about basing the conversation around broader topics at first. Good call....does anyone know how such a list might be started? Brent At 11:14 PM 11/4/97 -0500, you wrote: >I'm especially interested in Wallace Stevens and William Carlos Williams, but >yes, I'd be interested in such a list. I wonder if it would be productive to >base the conversation around topics (broad or narrow), or particular >authors/poems, at least in the beginning. That way, unlike so many of the >postings I've seen on the Pound and Eliot lists, folks would be having truly >collaborative discussions, rather than tons of disparate, parallel >conversations that are annoying to sample. > >Aviva Vogel >MFA in Writing, Vermont College > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:17:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Try Langston Hughes. Ever heard of him? Kind of an important figure in American poetry. You might enjoy it...if you aren't too busy lurking. At 01:05 PM 11/5/97 +0800, you wrote: >On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Timothy Materer wrote: >snip >> What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for >> example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, >> Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who >> don't have a list >> of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > >don't get me wrong, I like the work of some of these (Stevens, Crane, >though which Crane? Hart or Steven, Loy, Williams, Auden, and one of the >Moore but not the other) but aren't they well enough discussed? Aren't >there already mounds and mounds of discussion of them? I mean, a third >rate versifier like Frost is discussed constantly and ubiquitiously from >2nd or 3rd grade until post-doc. Only Mina Loy, of that list, was not >included in my junior high school poetry syllabus. (Who is this Hughes >person, though? Do you mean Sylvia Plath's ex husband?) It was a public >school, too, though things may have changed in the intervening three >hundred years, but on the other hand, some of those poets were still >alive back then. > >anyway: Stevens = cornbread-heavy Ashbery >Moore = obscure precursor of Alice Notley >Crane = obscure precursor of John Wieners >Frost = I prefer Kenneth Koch >Loy = wonderful >Williams = not Oscar, I hope >Hughes = place in literary history for abandoning Sylvia Plath >Auden = absolutely >Moore = Robert Lowell's psychiatrist, supposedly had affair with Lowell's >mother, a rather impressive feat. > >I will now return to lurking > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:01:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971104155932.0075f35c@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, mark weiss wrote: > I am haunted by the idea of the German coal and steel town of > Wupperthalthat funds with its taxes the Wupperthaler danzteater, surely one > of the most challenging and best performance companies around. I'm told the > locals take a pride in it that we tend to reserve for basketball teams. > Somehow these workers got the idea that it was alright to like these > extremely strange and sometimes painful events. > Yes...I was thinking of some of the same examples as Mark W....I often do when public funding for the arts comes up. I'm really not well-informed on this subject, but from what I remember I have read about a *number* of striking instances like the one Mark describes...All from Germany (which is to say West Germany)..There is a national cultural element going on there, but as house commie I'm gong to suggest that there's something more specifically political: much of western Europe never engaged in as ruthless a demolition of public space as did the U.S. throughout the mid-twentieth century. This often had a lot to do with a more militant labor movement (not so unusual if the comparison is with this country, where the entire trade union structure sold out to management and became its servents and lackeys, as they still are) and its expression in a Social Democratic party, which puts greater pressure on societal decision-making, bending it in the direction of greater, more open public social culture. The republicrat state machine in the U.S. has never been about opening up public space. That's a task only the majority of people, organizing around a left program, can do. There's lots of other things we poet types can do to help open up more social cultural space; certainly speaking out and organizing around NEA and similar structures is one (tho' to my mind somewhat limited, because of the constricted and unevenly-distributed nature of NEA pie); Henry is very right to suggest that involvement in education is another--that's not my area by temperment nor by choice, so I haven't much substantive to add there. But a total (dare I say it, radical) change in the very shape of our national culture is what we need, and what examples like the the one Mark cites point toward. And that (like they say in book titles) is "why I'm a socialist." The idea of socialism is less about governmental power or even the economic system, than it is about the flowering of culture. Mark P. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:36:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Try the National Poetry Foundation at http://www.ume.maine.edu/~npf/ >>> Brent Long 11/05/97 10:06am >>> I think a modernist discussion list is a great idea, but how to go about it? Brent At 05:59 PM 11/4/97 -0600, you wrote: >>>Anyone aware of any other poetics lists that may be out there? >>>Thanks, >Brent Long >> >There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ >Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), >modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, >which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, >for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. And I'm sure there is a >discussion list for Irish poetry and literature somewhere. I also run a >very small >James Merrill list--discussing JM's symbolist poetics of late. > >What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for >example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, >Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who >don't have a list >of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > >Brent or anyone else, would you be interested in such a list? > > > >Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department >University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 >http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:37:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Tate" Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, David Kellogg wrote: > "The > Neural Lyre" was a defense of metered poetry using neurobiology and was, > bar none, the single stupidest essay to have speculated about the > relations of science and literature of recent years. I'm not sure I would call "The Neural Lyre" stupid. It was not terribly well supported with solid evidence, say for the three minute line buffer in our brains, but it was at least an attempt to address what too few people do: why we like rhythm. Neurobiology is not altogether the wrong place to start as rhythm is a biological phenomenon as well as a cognitive one, and why not allow neurobiology a say so in the matter? Best, Joseph Tate Graduate Student U. of Washington, Seattle ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:58:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: 1. not _that_ Hughes 2. Still other lists 3. EPOUND-L In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1. Schuchat Simon's post very amusing (I guess...) As to: "Hughes = place in literary history for abandoning Sylvia Plath; Moore = Robert Lowell's psychiatrist, supposedly had affair with Lowell's mother, a rather impressive feat" --I meant Langston, author of Montage of a Dream Deferred not the ode to Princess Di (which suffers by comparison with" Pavement to a Dead Princess") and definitely Marianne not Merrill Moore! 2. Someone kindly informed me of: "a very quiet Yeats List (subscribe yeats to listserv@unc.edu.) and a very small Stevens List (subscribe Wallace_Stevens to Majordomo@wesleyan.edu)." 3. "Please let me knowthe address for the Pound list at Maine. --JR Foley" LISTSERV@MAINE.MAINE.EDU The list is called EPOUND-L Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:56:58 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: FW: Codex Alimentarius Comments: cc: lou / linda russo In-Reply-To: <01IPMCWC0BIC9709N1@iix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT thanks Patrick for that message on the CODEX. I've heard enough about this often enough to be concerned, so I just did a bit of checking up on the www, & I might as well share it with the list. then I'll be quiet & we can talk about poetics again. the short form is: 1) the CODEX is an internat'l body seeking to establish standards re food quality & handling, which, according to them, includes vitamins & homeopathic medicines; 2) the CODEX operates under the joint auspices of the United Nations World Health Organization (WHO) & Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO); 3) it has been repeatedly alleged by local & int'l consumer & health advocacy groups that "vested interests of Northern industrialized countries, & representatives of transnational food industries have come to dominate the Codex process of setting nutrition and safety standards"; 4) the CODEX has not yet adapted the German standards, & there is some opposition to them, but no guarantees; 5) the FDA is considering the amendment of its regulations "to promote international harmonization", i.e., adopting the standards set forth in the CODEX; 6) there seem to be strong penalties for nations who don't comply, e.g., heavily sanctions (fines) by the World Trade Organization (WTO). it looks like it might be time to make some phone calls, write letters, & whatnot, for those of us interested in homeopathic medicine & vitamins. in addition to Patrick's suggestions, I noted that the FDA seems to be seeking input on this consideration: Dockets Management Branch (HFA-305) Food and Drug Administration 12420 Parklawn Dr., rm. 1-23, Rockville, MD 20857 FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: John W. Jones, Office of Constituent Operations (HFS-550) Food and Drug Administration 200 C St. SW., Washington, DC 20204 202-205-4311. best, Chris -- suggested sites: general info from John Hammell, Canadian "health freedom" advocate info specific to the FDA issue report from The Infant Feeding Action Coalition Canada (INFACT Canada), "a non-profit, non-governmental voluntary organization that promotes better infant and maternal health by protecting breastfeeding and fostering appropriate infant feeding practices in Canada and internationally. general info from Foodnet: "a business tool for the food industry provided by the Food Institute of Canada" excerpt re vitamins from the most recent CODEX report, as given by the FAO () full text of the most recent report (23-28 June 1997); unfortunately, the list of participants is being withheld until the final draft. (see under "Nutrition and Foods for Special Dietary Uses") the U.S. "contact" for info on the CODEX is Executive Officer for Codex U.S. Codex Contact Point Food Safety and Inspection Service US Department of Agriculture Room 311, West End Court Washington D.C. 20250-3700 Tel: +1 202 418 8852 Fax: +1 202 418 8865 Email: USCODEX@ aol.co -- .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. / nominative press collective email: calexand@library.utah.edu snail-mail: P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 press site: http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:59:40 CST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Zukowski Subject: Modernism discussion list A modernism discussion list already exists--at the University of Washington. Just send an e-mail note--no subject--to: listproc@u.washington.edu and just type as the body of the message: subscribe modernism After a little while you'll get an e-mail note asking you to confirm your request. Just reply and you're on! I've been on the list for a couple of weeks now and haven't gotten very much mail. . . . so I don't know how lively, long, and involved the threads get. Maybe we can perk it up a bit. Hope this is helpful. Peter Zukowski zukowski@uic.edu ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:30:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Other poetry discussions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have been thinking about the idea of other discussion lists this morning, and am wondering why there are no discussions on some of the other contemporary poets that are around these days. I never hear anything on Merwin (a personal favorite of mine) or Levertov or other writers like that. I saw a posting today announcing Rosmarie Waldrop's upcoming reading tonight, but she and her work are never discussed here, either, and that is a shame. She and her husband are both amazing poets. I certainly don't see myself as being attracted to only one or two "styles" of poetry, and would really like to see a broad range of writers and styles addressed. What do some of you think? Is there a call to pursue this? Brent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 09:55:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Timothy Materer wrote: >There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ >Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), >modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, >which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, >for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. Not so oddly, given this statement from the welcome message to Poetics: >Please note that this is a private list and information about the list >should not be posted to other lists or >directories of lists. The idea is >to keep the list to those with specific rather than general interests, and >also to >keep the scale of the list relatively small and the volume >manageable. But then, who bothers to read (or save) the welcome messages for e-mail lists? As for starting a modernist poetry list, given the problems of administering this list; the number of complaints folks make from time to time about gettin gtoo much e-mail; & the general range of non-contemporary, non-American poetry discussed from time to time on CAP-L (Plath's husband is mentioned far more than any figures of the Harlem Renaissance for instance) - it may make more sense to start discussing 20th century American poets on CAP-L rather than to start a new list for the subject. Though people should probably raise the issue there first. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 12:39:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics Comments: To: Mark Prejsnar In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mark, "the flowering of culture" -- "public space" poet-types can set the example for what I believe is a lost notion to most non-poet-types (non-artists, I should say), but it's foggy, by what means they can but may they? and if the notion of a public space is actually known to and held sacred by all, why do we not dare to inhabit it? |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:43:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Watts Subject: Debbie's adventures now available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Folks, Lisa Robertson's *Debbie: an Epic* is now published and available from New Star Books, Vancouver, B.C. and (shortly) from Small Press Distribution. And for Stan Persky fans, his new book, Autobiography of a Tattoo is also just out from New Star. Plus a new book from John Harris, a fine writer little known outside B.C. See the publisher's fall list which follows. For people in the Vancouver, B.C. area, Lisa and New Star will be launching *Debbie* at the Western Front, 303 East 8th Ave., on Saturday, November 15, at 8 p.m. Herewith follows the necessary data. Eager readers please note: DO NOT TRY TO ORDER THESE BOOKS BY REPLYING TO THE LIST, BECAUSE IT WON'T WORK. AND PLEASE DON'T BACKCHANNEL ME, CHARLES WATTS, WITH ORDERS. I'm just the messenger. DO BACKCHANNEL NEWSTAR BOOKS AT THEIR E-MAIL ADDRESS, newstar@pinc.com Forwarded message: > From: "New Star Books" > > The information people need is: > > Debbie: An Epic costs $11 US/$14 Cdn. It is available (or will be > shortly; a box of books is on its way there) from SPD: tel. (510) > 549-3336; fax (510) 549-2201; e-mail: spd@igc.apc.org, or direct from > New Star: tel. (604) 738-9429; fax (604) 738-9332; e-mail: > newstar@pinc.com. New Star requires prepayment ($11 per book plus $4 > shipping), either by cheque, or by Visa. > > New Star's mailing address is 2504 York Avenue, Vancouver, BC V6K > 1E3. > > > ********************************************** > ********** FALL BOOKS FROM NEW STAR ********** > > AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A TATTOO > by Stan Persky > 240 pages, $19 paper > > DEBBIE: AN EPIC > by Lisa Robertson > 96 pages, $14 paperback > > OTHER ART > by John Harris > 224 pages, $16 paper > > THE KLUANE NATIONAL PARK HIKING GUIDE > by Vivien Lougheed > 256 pages, maps, photos; $20 paperback > > AFTER THE WELFARE STATE > by Ken Collier > 200 pages, $20 paperback > > ******* E-MAIL US FOR A FREE CATALOGUE ******* > ********************************************** > -- Charles Watts Theses and Special Collections Special Collections & Rare Books Room 7100, Bennett Library Simon Fraser University Burnaby, B.C. V5A 1S6 Tel: 604-291-4747; Fax: 604-291-3023 E-mail: cwatts@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:00:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics Comments: To: mark weiss In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971104155932.0075f35c@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And another Mark (Weiss this time), Teach one to "love the arts"? Help "the arts find an audience"? This just doesn't make sense if one presumes that the arts are essential to humankind. Haughty belief? Rash? I don't think so. Loving the arts is like hating medicine. It's an irrational fetishizing. The arts are as much an audience as an artist. |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:54:28 -0800 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: CODEX for Canadian listees MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1E6D4B0F12A0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1E6D4B0F12A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear list, Yes, this is v. important and is already having repercussions in Canada. What to do is all below. Watch out for typos. I sent [hard] copies to both Burke and Dingwall in June and never heard back. This seems to be the new style of government here in Branchplantland. best and apologies for unpoetic content, Susan Anti-Codex Letter for Health Freedom Stats (all links on the word "Codex" take you to the World Health Organization) Send to David Dingwall, Minister of Health, House of Commons, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0A6 (FAX 613-952-1154), and to Ron Burke, Room 200, Health Protection Branch, Tunneys Pasture, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0L2 (FAX 613-941-3537): Name:______________________________________Date:______________________ Address:___________________________________City:____________Prov:_____ Dear Mr. Dingwall/Mr. Burke: I am writing to inform you that I totally oppose the German delegations proposal to the World Health Organization's Codex Committee on Nutrition and Foods for Special Dietary Uses. The proposal to set worldwide dosage limits on nutritional supplement would effectively end my access to the benefits of safe dietary nutrients. My vitamins, minerals and other nutritional supplements I have used for years will no longer be available to me above RDA levels without a medical prescription, as the major pharmaceutical companies take over the dietary supplement industry. Since no supplement will be available for therapeutic or preventative uses, and all new products would be automatically banned until passing Codex approval, my health and my RIGHTS would be dangerously ignored. The cost of supplements would skyrocket, prohibiting their use by those who often need them the most--seniors and the chronically ill. Two steps have already been taken by the Codex Committee with very little public awareness. Step three is near the final ratification in the Codex process. Once ratified, Canada will be bound to comply under GATT regulations. I am strongly urging you, to do everything in your power to oppose the Codex Commission's proposal. Canadian health consumers and business people are counting on you to personally voice your objection, and to make sure the Canadian Codex delegates show their disapproval. I also request that you write to tell me exactly what you intend to do to rectify this problem. Signed, ________________________________________________ This letter prepared for my convenience by "alive" Canadian Journal of Health and Nutrition, Box 80055, Burnaby, BC, V5H 3X1 FAX THE FEDS-this service provided by NetEffect CANADIAN COALITION FOR HEALTH FREEDOM-more information GO TO WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION INFO ON CODEX GO TO HEALTHCARE ALERT GO TO LETTER OF PROTEST, HERBS AND MEDICINAL PLANTS RETURN TO TOP OF PERSONAL PROFILE RETURN TO TOP OF sLINKy HOMOPAGE GO TO INDEX http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~at739/anticodex.html --------------------------------------------------------------- > > Anti-Codex Letter for Health Freedom > > Stats > > (all links on the word "Codex" take you to the World Health > Organization) > > Send to David Dingwall, Minister of Health, House of Commons, Ottawa, > Ontario, K1A 0A6 (FAX 613-952-1154), and to Ron Burke, Room 200, > Health Protection Branch, Tunneys Pasture, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0L2 > (FAX 613-941-3537): > > Name:______________________________________Date:______________________ > > Address:___________________________________City:____________Prov:_____ > > Dear Mr. Dingwall/Mr. Burke: > > I am writing to inform you that I totally oppose the German > delegations proposal to the World Health Organization's Codex > Committee on Nutrition and Foods for Special Dietary Uses. > > The proposal to set worldwide dosage limits on nutritional supplement > would effectively end my access to the benefits of safe dietary > nutrients. My vitamins, minerals and other nutritional supplements I > have used for years will no longer be available to me above RDA levels > without a medical prescription, as the major pharmaceutical companies > take over the dietary supplement industry. > > Since no supplement will be available for therapeutic or preventative > uses, and all new products would be automatically banned until passing > Codex approval, my health and my RIGHTS would be dangerously ignored. > The cost of supplements would skyrocket, prohibiting their use by > those who often need them the most--seniors and the chronically ill. > > Two steps have already been taken by the Codex Committee with very > little public awareness. Step three is near the final ratification in > the Codex process. Once ratified, Canada will be bound to comply under > GATT regulations. > > I am strongly urging you, to do everything in your power to oppose the > Codex Commission's proposal. Canadian health consumers and business > people are counting on you to personally voice your objection, and to > make sure the Canadian Codex delegates show their disapproval. I also > request that you write to tell me exactly what you intend to do to > rectify this problem. > > Signed, > > ________________________________________________ > > This letter prepared for my convenience by "alive" Canadian Journal of > Health and Nutrition, Box 80055, Burnaby, BC, V5H 3X1 > > FAX THE FEDS-this service provided by NetEffect > CANADIAN COALITION FOR HEALTH FREEDOM-more information > GO TO WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION INFO ON CODEX > GO TO HEALTHCARE ALERT > GO TO LETTER OF PROTEST, HERBS AND MEDICINAL PLANTS > RETURN TO TOP OF PERSONAL PROFILE > RETURN TO TOP OF sLINKy HOMOPAGE > GO TO INDEX --------------1E6D4B0F12A0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <33A8DC57.1127@ix.netcom.com> Date: Thu, 19 Jun 1997 00:14:31 -0700 From: Susan Clark Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Organization: A Use for Poets Editing Company X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0C-NC320 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Merrie-Ellen Wilcox Subject: Codex Letter Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------47C228A15437" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------47C228A15437 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MEW: badly written and with typos, dragged this off the net to save time. Faxed Dingwall last week. hope you're well. sx > Anti-Codex Letter for Health Freedom > > Stats > > (all links on the word "Codex" take you to the World Health > Organization) > > Send to David Dingwall, Minister of Health, House of Commons, Ottawa, > Ontario, K1A 0A6 (FAX 613-952-1154), and to Ron Burke, Room 200, > Health Protection Branch, Tunneys Pasture, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0L2 > (FAX 613-941-3537): > > Name:______________________________________Date:______________________ > > Address:___________________________________City:____________Prov:_____ > > Dear Mr. Dingwall/Mr. Burke: > > I am writing to inform you that I totally oppose the German > delegations proposal to the World Health Organization's Codex > Committee on Nutrition and Foods for Special Dietary Uses. > > The proposal to set worldwide dosage limits on nutritional supplement > would effectively end my access to the benefits of safe dietary > nutrients. My vitamins, minerals and other nutritional supplements I > have uses for years will no longer be available to me above RDA levels > without a medical prescription, as the major pharmaceutical companies > take over the dietary supplement industry. > > Since no supplement will be available for therapeutic or preventative > uses, and all new products would be automatically banned until passing > Codex approval, my health and my RIGHTS would be dangerously ignored. > The cost of supplements would skyrocket, prohibiting their use by > those who often need them the most--seniors and the chronically ill. > > Two steps have already been taken by the Codex Committee with very > little public awareness. Step three is near the final ratification in > the Codex process. Once ratified, Canada will be bound to comply under > GATT regulations. > > I am strongly urging you, to do everything in your power to oppose the > Codex Commission's proposal. Canadian health consumers and business > people are counting on you to personally voice your objection, and to > make sure the Canadian Codex delegates show their disapproval. I also > request that you write to tell me exactly what you intend to do to > rectify this problem. > > Signed, > > ________________________________________________ > > This letter prepared for my convenience by "alive" Canadian Journal of > Health and Nutrition, Box 80055, Burnaby, BC, V5H 3X1 > > FAX THE FEDS-this service provided by NetEffect > CANADIAN COALITION FOR HEALTH FREEDOM-more information > GO TO WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION INFO ON CODEX > GO TO HEALTHCARE ALERT > GO TO LETTER OF PROTEST, HERBS AND MEDICINAL PLANTS > RETURN TO TOP OF PERSONAL PROFILE > RETURN TO TOP OF sLINKy HOMOPAGE > GO TO INDEX http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~at739/anticodex.html --------------47C228A15437 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii; name="anticodex.html" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="anticodex.html" Content-Base: "http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~at739/antic odex.html" Codex Letter

Anti-Codex Letter for Health Freedom

Stats

(all links on the word "Codex" take you to the World Health Organization)

Send to David Dingwall, Minister of Health, House of Commons, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0A6 (FAX 613-952-1154), and to Ron Burke, Room 200, Health Protection Branch, Tunneys Pasture, Ottawa, Ontario, K1A 0L2 (FAX 613-941-3537):

Name:______________________________________Date:______________________

Address:___________________________________City:____________Prov:_____

Dear Mr. Dingwall/Mr. Burke:

I am writing to inform you that I totally oppose the German delegations proposal to the World Health Organization's Codex Committee on Nutrition and Foods for Special Dietary Uses.

The proposal to set worldwide dosage limits on nutritional supplement would effectively end my access to the benefits of safe dietary nutrients. My vitamins, minerals and other nutritional supplements I have uses for years will no longer be available to me above RDA levels without a medical prescription, as the major pharmaceutical companies take over the dietary supplement industry.

Since no supplement will be available for therapeutic or preventative uses, and all new products would be automatically banned until passing Codex approval, my health and my RIGHTS would be dangerously ignored. The cost of supplements would skyrocket, prohibiting their use by those who often need them the most--seniors and the chronically ill.

Two steps have already been taken by the Codex Committee with very little public awareness. Step three is near the final ratification in the Codex process. Once ratified, Canada will be bound to comply under GATT regulations.

I am strongly urging you, to do everything in your power to oppose the Codex Commission's proposal. Canadian health consumers and business people are counting on you to personally voice your objection, and to make sure the Canadian Codex delegates show their disapproval. I also request that you write to tell me exactly what you intend to do to rectify this problem.

Signed,

________________________________________________

This letter prepared for my convenience by "alive" Canadian Journal of Health and Nutrition, Box 80055, Burnaby, BC, V5H 3X1

FAX THE FEDS-this service provided by NetEffect
CANADIAN COALITION FOR HEALTH FREEDOM-more information
GO TO WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION INFO ON CODEX
GO TO HEALTHCARE ALERT
GO TO LETTER OF PROTEST, HERBS AND MEDICINAL PLANTS
RETURN TO TOP OF PERSONAL PROFILE
RETURN TO TOP OF sLINKy HOMOPAGE
GO TO INDEX
--------------47C228A15437-- --------------1E6D4B0F12A0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:43:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Benedetti Subject: Re: computer program for syntactic structures In-Reply-To: <971104231150_-1241330504@emout08.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Responding to a post by Haroldf Rhenisch, On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Aviva Vogel wrote: > Oh, Harold! Oh yes! A computer program that would chug away like a Nepalese > prayer wheel through the dictionary, slotting words into various syntactical > structures! Of course, we can do that endlessly ourselves, without our > laptops and CD-Rom drives, but hey! Like an anagram generator, it could be a > useful tool (or toy) to jump-start a poetry-writing session (or week or month > or year) that's faltering a bit (or a lot). Clever! Enticing! I'll be the > first customer! -Aviva > Just wanted to mention that I wrote a computer program to do something like that--although without the Nepalese prayer wheel idea. I wrote a program that generated syntactic structures that were correct grammatically and then took words from a list that showed the part of speech of the word but nothing else. So the program generated randomly varying sentence structures without reference to any word meaning. The results were quite interesting, in that the resulting poems (or prose) made connections of words and phrases that I think would otherwise never occur. The underlying syntactic "sense" made the poems seem meaningful, while still random and quite unusual in terms of combining particular words. I showed a few copies of the computer-generated work around San Francisco in 1974-75, entitled "Social Climax Text" and "Ideas Imagine Passion." I'm also thinking about trying to publish the results along with an explanatory essay (although previous efforts didn't work). Backchannel me for an example, if you anyone is interested. David Benedetti Albuquerque, New Mexico ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:08:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Let me define more precisely my irrational fetish (is there a rational one?). People express themselves, people are receptive. Some of that expression and reception we call art, and some we don't. A Cheerios box is advertizing, not art. It's possible for an impulse to advertize the product of a multinational grain cionsortium to produce art, but if that happens it's a secondary purpose. Otherwise the box is a piece of cultural curiosa and someone will collect it for a museum of cereal. Some of what's expressed can only be received by an audience that has gone through a process of education, formally or informally. That's either because the given expression assumes the knowledge of the language, visual, verbal or aural, in which it's produced, or because it's built on the history of similar expressions, or because it requires an extended attention span. But the reception doesn't end with the acquisition of the language, history or sitzfleisch. One listens to Mozart, or Melville, or Stevens, or Rothko, differently, and receives different, perhaps more complete, information, with repeated listenings. In fact, for some expressions there is never a point where one is finished hearing it anew or hearing new things in it. This continuous meditation on a given expression is a profoundly moving experience. It seems a shame that the vast bulk of the population is denied the experience because they lack the education. Out of that experience come the willingness to fund art institutions that make the experience possible, and also the formation of more artists who are invested in the evolving history and practice of their craft and their culture. Beyond that, I don't understand your simile. Loving arts=hating medicine. Does that make sense if reversed: hating medicine=loving arts? how about hating arts=loving medicine? Is this some sort of stinkbomb or is it meant to be a more subtle communication? At 01:00 PM 11/5/97 -0600, you wrote: > > And another Mark (Weiss this time), > Teach one to "love the arts"? Help "the arts find an audience"? >This just doesn't make sense if one presumes that the arts are essential >to humankind. Haughty belief? Rash? I don't think so. Loving the arts >is like hating medicine. It's an irrational fetishizing. The arts are as >much an audience as an artist. > > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > ___________________________ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:04:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: The scope of CAP-L In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >it may make more sense to start discussing 20th >century American poets on CAP-L rather than to start a new list for the >subject. Though people should probably raise the issue there first. It seems to me that CAP-L is specifically devoted to Contemporary American Poets and not to that earlier group of English and American originators and experimenters. Also, one of the strengths of CAP-L (again, just a personal opinion) is that it discusses creative writing: for example, exercises to use in CW classes, the recent failure to award a Yale Younger Poets prize, and the length of time journals take to accept or reject poems. With apologies for not reading Welcome Messages with sufficient attention, TM Timothy Materer, 228 Tate Hall, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:16:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: 1. not _that_ Hughes 2. Still other lists 3. EPOUND-L -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks. I'll try it out. -- JR Foley >>> Timothy Materer 11/05/97 11:58am >>> 3. "Please let me knowthe address for the Pound list at Maine. --JR Foley" LISTSERV@MAINE.MAINE.EDU The list is called EPOUND-L Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:19:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: POE's Grammy In a message dated 97-11-04 11:21:02 EST, you write: << ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 13:17:49 -0800 From: Troy Farnham Reply-To: libsup-l@u.washington.edu To: libsup-l@u.washington.edu Subject: Who is this POE guy anyway? This can be considered a weird and scary reference question. Yesterday I had a student ask me if I could help her find information on Edgar Allen Poe. She told me that "I don't know much about him except that he won a Grammy or something." I'm happy to say that she was better informed when she left our library. Troy Farnham Library Technician II Alan Thompson Library Lower Columbia College 1600 Maple PO BOX 3010 Longview, WA 98362 >> Not so fast there, Young Feller! Mouth Almighty will indeed be releasing "Closed on Account of Rabies: Poems and Tales of Edgar Allan Poe" on December 9, just in time to answer your Holiday giftgiving ache. Produced by the mighty Hal Willner, audacious cover art by Ralph Steadman, and liner notes by Charles Baudelaire ("Each morning I pray to God and Poe"), some of the highlights include: Dr. John rumbling through French/Latin/Creole-limned English to bring to life the unstable narrtaor of the little-known Bereneice; Diamanda Gallas cackling through "The Black Cat"; Ed Sanders singing two poems with full band; Christopher Walken spookifying "The Raven" only to be sent up by a crazed Abel Ferrar trying to do the same thing; Gabriel Byrne between the thunderclaps of "Masque of Red Death"; Jeff Buckley, Marianne Faithfull, and others. This will be MA's first entry into the audio book zone. Also available as a double CD. Orders via website (Poe page will go up end of Nov) http://www.mouthalmighty.com or via the guerrilla distribution system Gary Glazner has set up, Words on Wheels, 800-992-9673. If you'd like to be on mail list, nail impale snail to: PurePoet@mouthalmighty.com Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:30:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope Joseph, as a hand-drummer (African/Cuban/Haitian folkloric styles, etc.), that book might just be the answer to a previously unfulfilled quest to understand better our affinities with rhythm. Thanks for that comment. As to how applicable his theories are to poetry, or how well-supported they are, I guess I'm gonna have to find out for myself. I'm not (currently) super-interested in formal poetry, and never have been, but I leave no stone unturned in my investigations to understand all I can. Thanks, Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:39:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BCEA11.B89753C0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BCEA11.B89753C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: J. Tate To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 1:35 PM Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope >On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, David Kellogg wrote: > >> "The >> Neural Lyre" was a defense of metered poetry using neurobiology and was, >> bar none, the single stupidest essay to have speculated about the >> relations of science and literature of recent years. > >I'm not sure I would call "The Neural Lyre" stupid. It was not terribly >well supported with solid evidence, say for the three minute line buffer >in our brains, but it was at least an attempt to address what too few >people do: why we like rhythm. Neurobiology is not altogether the wrong >place to start as rhythm is a biological phenomenon as well as a cognitive >one, and why not allow neurobiology a say so in the matter? I think it's a three second, not three minute, line buffer. That'd be a long line. I don't doubt the usefulness of neurobiology for studying rhythm or any other aspect of poetry or poetic form. (I used to be managing editor of _The Journal of Neuroscience_ and I currently teach in an special program combining neurobiology, philosophy of mind, cognitive anthropology, clinical psychology, and cognitive linguistics; so I'm a pretty big fan of the neurosciences.) Rhythm is biological, cognitive, cultural, and sociopolitical, yes: but the stupidity of Turner's essay is in its prescriptive project, an a priori description of rhythm in terms that lead directly to the New Formalism. How handy. It is a perfect example of what B. H. Smith, following Pierre Bourdieu, has called "the Others' Poison Effect": what is bad for you must be bad for others. Subsuming meter to neural firings (and secondarily to breath and heartbeat, in a bizarre anti-Olson riff) for Turner means in the end that metered poetry is healthy and free verse neither healthy nor, as he says in a footnote somewhere, even really poetry. But if so, how come what would give Turner a heart attack really makes me groove? Good Doc Turner wants to give me a poetic pacemaker; says I've got me a baaaad ticker. ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BCEA11.B89753C0 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; name="David Kellogg.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="David Kellogg.vcf" BEGIN:VCARD N:Kellogg;David FN:David Kellogg ORG:Duke University;University Program in Writing and Rhetoric TITLE:Senior Lecturing Fellow TEL;WORK;VOICE:919-660-4357 TEL;HOME;VOICE:919-419-0374 TEL;WORK;FAX:919-660-4381 TEL;HOME;FAX:919-660-4381 ADR;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:;;Box 90023=3D0D=3D0ABell Tower = One;Durham;NC;27708 LABEL;WORK;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:Box 90023=3D0D=3D0ABell Tower = One=3D0D=3D0ADurham, NC 27708 ADR;HOME:;;5500-68D Fortunes Ridge Drive;Durham;NC;27713 LABEL;HOME;ENCODING=3DQUOTED-PRINTABLE:5500-68D Fortunes Ridge = Drive=3D0D=3D0ADurham, NC 27713 URL:http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg URL:http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg EMAIL;PREF;INTERNET:kellogg@acpub.duke.edu END:VCARD ------=_NextPart_000_00CB_01BCEA11.B89753C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:52:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit regarding... "much of western Europe never engaged in as ruthless a demolition of public space as did the U.S. throughout the mid-twentieth century." No, that would have been 1939-45. Lessons were learned. Harold ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:55:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >if the notion of a public space is actually known to and held >sacred by all, why do we not dare to inhabit it? Ah, we do. Contemporary culture has succeeded in making the public private and the private public. The reasons are, in other words, political. Harold ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:54:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Wupperthal awake! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, >My understanding is that Pina Bausch and her commandos really do get the >workers in their audience Great. There must be a shared idea of culture there, however, and of its value. Not a universal situation. Building that might be the first step. >I don't think there'll ever be enough willing artists to stock the elementary >schools. Too bad. >There may be enough, however, to teach the teachers, and enough (not >necessarily a majority) of those teachers may become enough enthralled to >change the culture of the teacher's lounge. Teach them what? Change the culture of the teacher's lounge? Only, I suspect, if art becomes a project rather than a history. Otherwise it will be swallowed. >As to what kind of art, what aesthetic experience is opened, I'd be content >to define it as whatever they have no access to now, and that means those >arts that require a vocabulary, verbal, visual or musical, and some >history. Teaching arts as languages is valuable. But isn't the first step one of connections? Beethoven is valuable today because Glass (for example) is carrying on the tradition. The traditions and histories exist, no matter where you enter them. Is it possible to change a culture without first changing the culture of delivery? >And I'm pretty unashamedly elitist about this. I don't think it >reactionary to want more people to be capable of experiencing some of the >more powerful experiences that human culture has generated. But what are those experiences? Creation or education? I'd want to teach that the tradition is alive, here, now, in all the mundane and glorious parts of everyday life and perception. That's where history has brought us, that's where history _is._ Then we can talk about individual instances of creation, Brueghel or Bach or Williams or Marlowe. The alternative is to fall into pc land, where Plato is dismissed as a dead white male, end of story, because the connections of history to life are not brought to life by any form of education that is not essentially creative. Plato is dead, white, and male, but that is not the end of the story. Is it really elitism you want, or excellence? Access you mentioned. I think you must mean excellence. Which do they mean in Wupperthal? Why are the Wupperthalers trudging off to the Tanztheater? Is it because Art is a social project in Germany? Is it because they want to be educated? Is it because they recognize excellence in art and want to support it? I ask, because if we are going to translate this success into a North American context, and committing our meagre arts funding to it, we had better be very sure just what it is we are bringing across the Atlantic. We had better be very sure that we are bringing all the pieces along. I don't have any answers here. Maybe your sources do. I'd love to hear them. Whatcha think? Cheers, Harold ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:57:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laurie Schneider/Crag Hill Subject: NEA and Poetry in the schools Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Henry: I've taught at three secondary schools over the last ten years. I have yet to cross paths with any NEA money or with anyone who has been rewarded NEA money. Does this mean those who receive do not also give? I'm out here wondering wherefore they art be. I get poets into the classroom as often as I can -- I've had Jack Foley, Larry Eigner, and others -- but they have been funded by scant school monies. Is/Was poets-in-the-schools active? Are/Were they NEA funded? As I began teaching at the end of the Reagan debacle, I heard good things about this program but I couldn't catch the ghost. In any case, my experience tells me the best way to show students age 13-18 that poetry is alive is to bring living poets to their classroom doorstep to read and talk. Anyone coming through Moscow, ID in the the next ten years? Give me a call. Best, Crag Hill (509)332-1120 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:06:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Lewis and Clark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (No, not Lewis McAdams and Tom Clark -- though I doubt many will know of their collaborations of the early 70s) "The Corps of Discovery" "The Real Unknown" Come home Ken Burns all is forgiven (the shlocky Civil War) (the maudlin Baseball) THIS was True Romance (Part II tonight, PBS) the unmediated language the Rockies, the Plains geography's smell, history's taste (it ain't lang-po) HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 21:57:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: another Providence reading Dear Listfreaks, before the synapses mufflerize for the night, here's a miniscule report on Susan Wheeler's poetry reading at Brown Univ. s'evening: Susan Wheeler's poetry is a kind of pure poetry. For Me this doesn't Imply Political Purity or Experimental Sainthood; rather the ironic double of the one and the opposite of the other. She caroms harmonious otherness of traditional poetry (Auden, Poe, Heine, Shakespea, Felix the cat) - in all its MILTONIC ORGAN-MUSIC of rhyme, assonance, diction, vastness, virginal limnation - honing that framing marrow - without any academic fat. There's a razor (ironic, platinum) wobbling between Art & Life; and the goats will be left bad-breathin in the Wheelesque-Miltonic outer darkness - the great Wheel of Heel of EloHim - while Sheep & Sheepdog enjoy the Rewording. Got that, everybody? Make a lot of sense? Good. If the Wheeler Circus come to town (book due this spring) I recommend be there if you can. - Henry in an UnExceptionally InArticulate State p.s. I is makin sophumeric remarks about a poet who branches into strange redemptive glories of adverse occasions (if you know what I mean). Commentary, midrashim, corrections, anybody. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:07:41 +0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schuchat Simon Subject: Re: Lewis and Clark In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII about those Lewis MacAdams/Tom Clark collaborations, as well as the Lewis-Lewis (MacAdams/Warsh) and their ursprung in the Berrigan/Padgett Bean Spasms, what does the list think after 25-30 years about the aesthetic value of these efforts, and whether they have now stood the test of time? Or collaborations in general, e.g., I consider A Nest of Ninnies to be entirely successful, but when I turn to Journey to A War, I seem to be reading prose by Isherwood with interspersed poems by Auden, i.e., not a genuinely compositional collaboration. (But lets not get into renga.) And my profound apologies for mis-identifying Langston Hughes, a far better poet than Sylvia Plath's ex-husband for sure. Zip ity doo dah ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 22:52:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: NEA and Poetry in the schools In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There are a number of poets-in-the schools programs active in the US. I work for Teachers & Writers Collaborative, the main writers-in-residence program in New York. Coincidentally, we sponsored a project a few years back in Salmon, Idaho; NEA recipients Jack Collom and Sheryl Noethe were the poet-teachers. They taught the whole town. They wrote a book about it, _Poetry Everywhere_, which you can order from me by calling 1-888-BOOKS-TW. T&W gets money from the NEA (in fact, the Poetry City reading series was subsidized by the NEA up through this past June). The restructuring of the NEA set up a funding category for Arts-in-Education. I don't know whether groups like California Poets-in-the-Schools, JustBuffalo, Houston Writers-in-the-Schools, COMPAS (a writers-in-residence program based in Minneapolis) or WritersCorps (a national writers-in-residence initiative, I think they call it) get funding from the NEA. You might be interested in the information at our website (http://www.twc.org/), particularly the part about WriteNet, a national writers-in-residence _something_. Jordan Davis PS Can anybody confirm or deny Jack Collom's authorship of the spam haiku that are circling the internet chain? "Angioplasty" was the word that made me think I was certain he wrote them (and that they were the poems the Star or the Enquirer went after in their 'Poet Receives $40,000 of your Tax Dollars to Pen Ditties About Spam' article, the source of most of the last congressional mooting of the NEA's right-to-life). Seems like he ought to get credit, if not royalties. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:29:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The arts are as much an audience as an artist. |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ________________________________________ Well said ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:45:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Wupperthal awake! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" No, Glass does not inform the appreciation of nor influence the survival of Beethoven. The late quartets, the last three piano sonatas and the diabelli variations have a lot more to do with it, and I'd guess that the vast majority of those who learn from Beethoven are only dimly aware of Glass. But that's rather beside the point. I think you're contending that only those who make art can teach it, and only teaching the making can imbue the love of same. If that were true there'd be a very small audience. Myself, I barely whistle, and barely scribble, but I think I've managed to turn on more than a few to musical and visual thought--and the examplary passion is a large part of the persuasion. Some of those so persuaded, given the luck and talent, will make new things themselves. Others will value what's made and lead richer lives for the time given. Here's an experience. I left a museum where I had just spent some time with Breughel's Hunters in the Snow. Outside it was late afternoon. The ground was covered with snow and the bare trees were black against it. Suddenly the landscape was collapsed into Breughel's perspective and resolved into the complex ordering of the painting, but at the same time I was aware of the palpable world. I was understanding the way that Breughel had perceived and ordered without relinquishing my habitual perception and ordering, the one informing the other. It was an electrifying moment, another possibility for how to navigate in the world that had been presented. This was an ecstatic moment, and such moments do change one's life. And the ability to experience such moments, to increase the capacity for conceiving and perceiving in a more complex manner is what I try to teach. I think there are political consequences. Such moments release one from preconceptions. And that makes change possible. This is a neutral fact--the capacity for change is amoral. But it can lead to more fully experienced life, and to the making of art. The Pina Bausch company (the Wupperthaler crowd) tour. They play New York and I think several other American cities and all major cities in Europe I think every year. If you saw their work I think your questions about why people attend would be answered. It's a pretty amazing experience. At 03:54 PM 11/5/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mark, > >>My understanding is that Pina Bausch and her commandos really do get the >>workers in their audience > > Great. There must be a shared idea of culture there, however, and of > its value. Not a universal situation. Building that might be the first > step. > >>I don't think there'll ever be enough willing artists to stock the >elementary >>schools. > > Too bad. > >>There may be enough, however, to teach the teachers, and enough (not >>necessarily a majority) of those teachers may become enough enthralled to >>change the culture of the teacher's lounge. > > Teach them what? > > Change the culture of the teacher's lounge? Only, I suspect, if art > becomes a project rather than a history. Otherwise it will be swallowed. > >>As to what kind of art, what aesthetic experience is opened, I'd be >content >>to define it as whatever they have no access to now, and that means those >>arts that require a vocabulary, verbal, visual or musical, and some >>history. > > Teaching arts as languages is valuable. But isn't the first step one of >connections? Beethoven is valuable today because Glass (for example) is >carrying on the tradition. The traditions and histories exist, no matter > where you enter them. Is it possible to change a culture without first > changing the culture of delivery? > >>And I'm pretty unashamedly elitist about this. I don't think it >>reactionary to want more people to be capable of experiencing some of the >>more powerful experiences that human culture has generated. > > But what are those experiences? Creation or education? I'd want to teach > that the tradition is alive, here, now, in all the mundane and glorious > parts of everyday life and perception. That's where history has brought > us, that's where history _is._ Then we can talk about individual > instances of creation, Brueghel or Bach or Williams or Marlowe. > > The alternative is to fall into pc land, where Plato is dismissed as a > dead white male, end of story, because the connections of history to life > are not brought to life by any form of education that is not essentially > creative. Plato is dead, white, and male, but that is not the end of the > story. > > Is it really elitism you want, or excellence? Access you mentioned. > > I think you must mean excellence. > > Which do they mean in Wupperthal? Why are the Wupperthalers trudging > off to the Tanztheater? Is it because Art is a social project in Germany? > Is it because they want to be educated? Is it because they recognize > excellence in art and want to support it? I ask, because if we are going > to translate this success into a North American context, and committing > our meagre arts funding to it, we had better be very sure just what it is > > we are bringing across the Atlantic. We had better be very sure that we > are bringing all the pieces along. I don't have any answers here. Maybe > your sources do. I'd love to hear them. > >Whatcha think? > >Cheers, > >Harold > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:56:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Philly Talks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Philly Talks is both an event & a web/hard copy newsletter. The newsletter presents brief written responses by two poets, each to the other's work/context. The event extends those responses in dialogue, after readings by the poets. Available so far: Philly Talks #1 (Oct. 30 & 31, 1997): David Bromige (response to Moriarty's *Symmetry* [Avec Books]) Laura Moriarty (response to Bromige's *A Cast of Tens* [Avec Books]) Philly Talks #2 (Nov. 4 & 5, 1997): Andrew Levy (response to Mac Low's *Barnesbook* [Sun & Moon]) Jackson Mac Low (response to *Continuous/Discontinuous* [Potes & Poets]) Philly Talks #1 is temporarily lodged at: http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~wh/events/phillytalks1.html #2 will be up shortly. Hard copies of both newsletters are available for the grand total of $US 1 by emailing your request to wh@dept.english.upenn.edu The series is curated/edited by Louis Cabri and made possible thanks to Kelly Writers House and University of Pennsylvania. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:29:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lefthandb@MHV.NET Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" LEFT HAND BOOKS announces the publication of FOUNDATIONS by James Walsh. 128 pages + four-color insert; paper; $15.00 FOUNDATIONS documents James Walsh's wall-hung and site/non-site specific sculptures executed in various materials: mud, seed cones, leaves, plastic tubes, chalk, mason's line, bricks and stones. These rectangular forms evoke building foundations and what Robert Smithson termed "ruins in reverse, that is-all the new construction that would eventually be built." Each foundation Walsh made "is a simple rearranging of the site." His text mirrors his off-hand style of sculpting and calls for the same "diffuse attention." The writing's open framework corresponds to the notions of containment and dispersal embodied by the foundations. Walsh scatters passages from different writers and artists across the reader's field of attention, interspersing them with autobiographical passages, proposals for new sculptures-Foundation on the Surface of the Moon, for example-and commentary on his own and other artists' work. He writes: "My interests are diffuse and can be drawn out and elaborated, but not at the expense of their sometimes fragile, tenuous connections." This copiously illustrated book contains maps to most of the foundations Walsh made. Walsh's text is itself a map, siting his foundations both within his personal history and the history of culture. Walsh links his work to both ancient and modern contexts, revealing how his minimalist work connects to the Nazca lines and 20th century land art. His sculpture's flatness aligns it to drawing; and he describes Walter de Maria's Half Mile Long Drawing in the Mohave Desert as having "the relationship to landscape I've been thinking of: minimal marking, defining and condensing interior space, drawing in and focusing exterior space, a way of organizing the landscape." Available through SPD 1341 Seventh Street Berkeley CA 94710 DAP 636 Broadway, 12th Floor New York, New York 10012 or direct from the publisher write for our FREE CATALOG at: LEFT HAND BOOKS Station Hill Rd. Barrytown, New York 12507 or visit our website at Bryan McHugh, Director LEFT HAND BOOKS Station Hill Road Barrytown, NY 12507 Fax: (914) 758-6478 e-mail: lefthandb@pop.mhv.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:03:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Sleep of poetics Comments: To: "p. durgin" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In my opinion, it ain't held sacred by all.....that's why we need a radical overhaul of the values and perceptions our society is founded on. (I refer to it "the old fashioned way"--as revolution.) Mark p. On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, p. durgin wrote: > > Mark, > "the flowering of culture" -- "public space" > poet-types can set the example for what I believe is a lost notion > to most non-poet-types (non-artists, I should say), but it's foggy, by > what means > they can but may they? > and if the notion of a public space is actually known to and held > sacred by all, why do we not dare to inhabit it? > > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > ___________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:10:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Other poetry discussions In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971105133000.006a4be4@postoffice.brown.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Brent-- If you've got somethin' to say about Merwin or the Waldrops, why not post it (even if it's not as thoroughly worked-out as an essay you'd publish...even if it's somewhat off the top of yer head??) The best way to get things going in the direction you want, on the list (as I've discovered from experience) is to just start yattering along the lines you'd like people to pursue...I dare say you'll find more Waldrop fans than Merwin fans on this list (??but I may be guessing wrong) and that a substantial number of folks who like one don't like the other. But it's opinion that make the poet-races.... Mark P. Atlanta On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Brent Long wrote: > I have been thinking about the idea of other discussion lists this morning, > and am wondering why there are no discussions on some of the other > contemporary poets that are around these days. I never hear anything on > Merwin (a personal favorite of mine) or Levertov or other writers like > that. I saw a posting today announcing Rosmarie Waldrop's upcoming reading > tonight, but she and her work are never discussed here, either, and that is > a shame. She and her husband are both amazing poets. I certainly don't see > myself as being attracted to only one or two "styles" of poetry, and would > really like to see a broad range of writers and styles addressed. > What do some of you think? Is there a call to pursue this? > > Brent > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Lewis and Clark Comments: To: Safdie Joseph MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Well, Joe, I only walked in on the last 15 minutes of the latest Burns paean to American mythology, but I found it rather treacly and distasteful. But then, I'd just spent the previous two hours reading Said's _Culture and Imperialism_, so that's understandable. Several things occured to me though - if I see/hear Stephen Ambrose and his gravel mixer voice trotted out one more time in defense of Ike, Lewis & Clark or any other icons or shibboleths of American identity formation/essentialism I'm going to puke. And where were the possibly dissenting or at least more critical voices among Western historians - Patty Limerick, Don Worster or Richard Slotkin - didn't see their names in the title crawl. A few years back someone (Hodding Carter?) wrote an amusing little book about retracing L & C's path - impossible now of course. You can't even sail a small boat up the Mississippi thanks to all the commerce and the regulatory devices installed by the Army Corps of Engineers. The Missouri itself is dammed in so many places - for recreational lakes and power supply - that it's also unnavigable. And as for Thom. Jefferson's "vision" of the West: one can do some very instructive reading about that vision in his letters (in the Library of America edition) where he outlines his policy for divesting Native Americans of their land holdings via unscrupulous lending practices and foreclosure. Oh yeah - he was all over that vision thing baby. ______ Jordan - to my knowledge, Jack Collom doesn't dabble on the Net. But his partner Jennifer Heath may have done so. Those haiku _do_ have a Collomesque touch, don't they? I think I saw can of Spam in Jack's kitchen once. Coincidence - or something else? Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Safdie Joseph To: POETICS Subject: Re: Lewis and Clark Date: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 7:30PM (No, not Lewis McAdams and Tom Clark -- though I doubt many will know of their collaborations of the early 70s) "The Corps of Discovery" "The Real Unknown" Come home Ken Burns all is forgiven (the shlocky Civil War) (the maudlin Baseball) THIS was True Romance (Part II tonight, PBS) the unmediated language the Rockies, the Plains geography's smell, history's taste (it ain't lang-po) HIGHLY RECOMMENDED! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:20:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists -Reply In-Reply-To: Jack Foley "Re: Other Poetics Lists -Reply" (Nov 5, 11:36am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii There is also a poetics discussion list at POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU (the erstwhile space for backdoor revival announcements) >A modernism discussion list already exists--at the >University of Washington. >I've been on the list for a couple of weeks now and haven't gotten very >much mail. . . . so I don't know how lively, long, and involved the threads >get. >Maybe we can perk it up a bit. >I think a modernist discussion list is a great idea, but how to go about it? >>>Anyone aware of any other poetics lists that may be out there? >>>Thanks, >There's a list of lists at gopher://gopher.english.upenn.edu/11/Lists/ >Their listings includes beat-l, cap-l (contemporary American poetry), >modbrits (might include some poetics, but not much), and tse (T. S. Eliot, >which we run here at Missouri). They don't seem to have an entry, oddly, >for Poetics--nor for the Pound list at Maine. And I'm sure there is a >discussion list for Irish poetry and literature somewhere. I also run a >very small >James Merrill list--discussing JM's symbolist poetics of late. > >What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for >example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, >Moore. In other words, poets in the first generation of modernists who >don't have a list >of their own (Pound, Eliot) and who wouldn't be discussed on cap-l or poetics. > > would you be interested in such a list? > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:53:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: computer program for syntactic structures In-Reply-To: Message of 11/05/97 at 13:43:17 from dbenedet@UNM.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Re: David Benedetti poem-making program -- check out Charles O Hartman's book "Vitual Muse," from last year (Wesleyan UP), where various such programs are described & some of their texts displayed. The poems are not all that strong, frankly, but they do belong to recognizable types of contemporary poetry, which I think is interesting. Hartman's reflections on his experience with these pro grams are also interesting -- not profound, but a place to start. Brian ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rob wilson Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 In-Reply-To: <97Nov3.190617hwt.371208(1)@relay2.Hawaii.Edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Somebody asked, why not discuss W. S. Merwin. A contributor's note on him in Hawaii Review once said, "W. S. Merwin is W. S. Merwin." Period. So everybody as it were recognizes the style, stance, voice. Oppen called this, caustically, "the Merwin," meaning that Merwin's poetry had at some point reified into a market position, a period style magazine diction, all experimentation and risk-- at some point-- over. I believe sadly this is so. The voice is desiccated, burnt out, having written the subjectivity/self out as a source of wisdom or anything else. His turning belatedly to Hawaiian materials only reeks of his latest imperial gesture, sad, appropriative, it does belong in there with the furniture ads of the New Yorker or the perfumes of a US selfhood converted to Shelley pose. Sad. Invidious comparison number two: Robert Creeley gave a reading in Santa Cruz yesterday to a packed house of 300 at Kresgee Town Hall, UCSC. Peter Gizz introduced him elegantly, referring to his life project of language invention, the new englandy economy of phrasing, the recoding via new contexts of words like 'hello' until even these became odd, perverse. Creeley read and talked around the body of his life work. The last poem he read was a long one and on the border-of-death masterpiece, called "Histoire de Florida" in which the tropes and twists of his whole life's writing project is recall as la "Ashphodel that Greeny Flower," but oddly the voice and figure of sublime influence that returns to haunt the pome is Wallace Stevens. Creely talked for about fifteen mintues afterwards about what Stevens meant tohim, how hw was his first love as a poet but that the WS long line was not rright for him so he turned to the taut economy of WSW and weirded that out into the necessary prosody of his life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all points of exactitude. Rob Wilson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:25:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 from On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 rob wilson said: >life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for >his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the >earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor >is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all >points of exactitude. Rob Wilson The National Enquirer reported recently that Creeley (or "HM RC") was born of a Virgin by syllabic conception & that his one eye is actually a perfect heptapodromic crystal from the planet Jupiter; unknown to many, he's also the inventor of a method of syntactic swimming called "the Creeley". - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:25:04 EST5EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LYNES- KATHERINE Organization: Rutgers University English Dept. Subject: Re: Other Poetics Lists uh, wouldn't that be langston? > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Timothy Materer wrote: > snip > > What I'd like to see is a list that would discuss modern poets: for > > example, Stevens, Moore, Crane, Frost, Loy, Williams, Hughes, Auden, > > Moore. schuchat simon wrote: > don't get me wrong, I like the work of some of these (Stevens, Crane, > though which Crane? Hart or Steven, Loy, Williams, Auden, and one of the > Moore but not the other) but aren't they well enough discussed? Aren't > there already mounds and mounds of discussion of them? I mean, a third > rate versifier like Frost is discussed constantly and ubiquitiously from > 2nd or 3rd grade until post-doc. Only Mina Loy, of that list, was not > included in my junior high school poetry syllabus. (Who is this Hughes > person, though? Do you mean Sylvia Plath's ex husband?) It was a public > school, too, though things may have changed in the intervening three > hundred years, but on the other hand, some of those poets were still > alive back then. > > anyway: Stevens = cornbread-heavy Ashbery > Moore = obscure precursor of Alice Notley > Crane = obscure precursor of John Wieners > Frost = I prefer Kenneth Koch > Loy = wonderful > Williams = not Oscar, I hope > Hughes = place in literary history for abandoning Sylvia Plath > Auden = absolutely > Moore = Robert Lowell's psychiatrist, supposedly had affair with Lowell's > mother, a rather impressive feat. > > I will now return to lurking > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:34:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Ludwig von Glass MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, What I had in mind was not the integrity of either Beethoven or Glass, and the same follows for Pope or Wordsworth or cummings. I find a vast difference between listening to Beethoven out of his cultural context and Glass within his. Beethoven is meaningful to me because his work is still being carried on. There are (at least!) two ways of approaching the tradition of art or poetics: 1) there is a canon of achievement which we can celebrate and learn from, and 2) there is a tradition of creation which gave rise to that canon and which is ongoing. We can approach the act of art through 1 or 2, but there is a cost to both. My bias is with 2. Yours appears to be with 1. I think if students are going to some day be true writers or readers, we need to incorporate both approaches. At the very least, whatever approach we choose contains its own hidden biases. They may be the strongest of all. This goes for Pina Bausch's company, too. Whatever the attractions of her art, it is still created in a context. I'd like to be clear on that context before I re-created the art, or we will actually be re-creating something entirely different, perhaps merely our own biases. Some translation is probably necessary. The whole point was that we should be clear what we are doing when we spend our meagre resources so that we can get the most from the least. If money is really tight, then I feel we need to spend it wherever it can start a momentum of its own. Ah, heck, that's probably what you meant, too. Best, Harold Rhenisch ********* Mark Weiss wrote: No, Glass does not inform the appreciation of nor influence the survival of Beethoven. The late quartets, the last three piano sonatas and the diabelli variations have a lot more to do with it, and I'd guess that the vast majority of those who learn from Beethoven are only dimly aware of Glass. But that's rather beside the point. I think you're contending that only those who make art can teach it, and only teaching the making can imbue the love of same. If that were true there'd be a very small audience. Myself, I barely whistle, and barely scribble, but I think I've managed to turn on more than a few to musical and visual thought--and the examplary passion is a large part of the persuasion. Some of those so persuaded, given the luck and talent, will make new things themselves. Others will value what's made and lead richer lives for the time given. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:31:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" How you can group Merwin into a place along with the "perfume ads of the New Yorker" is beyond me. I for one am grateful for Merwin's approach and style, and feel it is still a valid and much-needed break from the typical mental-masturbation approach that many "contemporary" poets seem to fall in to, especially after being embraced by academia. A vague use of language does not a poet make, and Merwin has avoided this since the appearance of "The Carrier of Ladders" in 1973. And please explain the connection you were trying to make between your comments on Merwin and your praise of Creeley. Creeley is an excellent writer, but I fail to see the point in bringing him into the conversation, especially since I see no corrolation between his style of writing and Merwin's. Brent At 06:56 AM 11/6/97 -1000, you wrote: >Somebody asked, why not discuss W. S. Merwin. A contributor's note on him >in Hawaii Review once said, "W. S. Merwin is W. S. Merwin." Period. So >everybody as it were recognizes the style, stance, voice. Oppen called >this, caustically, "the Merwin," meaning that Merwin's poetry had at some >point reified into a market position, a period style magazine diction, all >experimentation and risk-- at some point-- over. I believe sadly this is >so. The voice is desiccated, burnt out, having written the >subjectivity/self out as a source of wisdom or anything else. His turning >belatedly to Hawaiian materials only reeks of his latest imperial gesture, >sad, appropriative, it does belong in there with the furniture ads of the >New Yorker or the perfumes of a US selfhood converted to Shelley pose. >Sad. >Invidious comparison number two: Robert Creeley gave a reading in Santa >Cruz yesterday to a packed house of 300 at Kresgee Town Hall, UCSC. Peter >Gizz introduced him elegantly, referring to his life project of language >invention, the new englandy economy of phrasing, the recoding via new >contexts of words like 'hello' until even these became odd, perverse. >Creeley read and talked around the body of his life work. The last poem >he read was a long one and on the border-of-death masterpiece, called >"Histoire de Florida" in which the tropes and twists of his whole life's >writing project is recall as la "Ashphodel that Greeny Flower," but oddly >the voice and figure of sublime influence that returns to haunt the pome >is Wallace Stevens. Creely talked for about fifteen mintues afterwards >about what Stevens meant tohim, how hw was his first love as a poet but >that the WS long line was not rright for him so he turned to the taut >economy of WSW and weirded that out into the necessary prosody of his >life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for >his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the >earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor >is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all >points of exactitude. Rob Wilson > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 14:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: New Deleuze, Coll Olson Prose, &&& @ Bridge Street Look here it's a whole mess o' fab books. Thanks Poetics. Ordering/discount information at end of the post. 1. _Bodies of Work: Essays_, Kathy Acker, Serpent's Tail, $16.00. Burroghs, Postmodernism, Greenaway, Delany, de Sade, Copyright, Constructivism, Boxcar Bertha, Colette, etc. 2. _Bookend: Anatomies of a Virtual Self_, Joe Amato, SUNY, $14.95. "We who liplock the collective lines of transmission are we as well whose uvular reality is a function of say ah and ha. . ." 3. _Endocrinology_, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge & Kiki Smith, Kelsey St Press, $17. "Because she's in a body, it makes decisions." 4. _The Potlatch Papers: A Colonial Case History_, Christopher Bracken, U Chicago, $16.95. Variously described as an exchange of gifts, a destruction of property, a system of banking, and a struggle for prestige, the potlatch is one of the founding concepts of anthropology. However, the potlatch was in fact invented by the nineteenth-century Canadian law which sought to destroy it. 5. _Strike!_ Revised & Updated Edition, Jeremy Brecher, South End, $22. No book has done as much as _Strike!_ to bring US labor history to a wide audience. 6. _I-VI_, John Cage, Wesleyan, $24.95. New in paperback. Includes 15 track CD of Cage reading section four. "someThing / mAy here / Type / socIety / tO die / aNd / capItal / coMposed of / tIme is / abouT / A dozen people' / i was aroused by having To / to devise a fOrm of events' / there Is no / phenoMenon / Increased / and souTh" 7. _MUSICAGE: Cage muses on words, art, music_, John Cage & Joan Retallack, Wesleyan, $19.95. New in paperback. "Yes, or I often use the word useful then." 8. _An Avec Sampler_, ed. Cydney Chadwick, $8.50. New writing by Laura Moriarty, Chris Stroffolino, Laynie Browne, George Albon, Stephen-Paul Martin, Lissa McLaughlin, & Susan Smith Nash. 9. _Chain 4_, ed. Jena Osman, Juliana Spahr, & Janet Zweig, $10. The "procedures" issue. Absolutely good. 10. _Crayon Premier Issue: Festshrift for Jackson Mac Low's 75th Birthday_, edited by Andrew Levy and Bob Harrison, $20. Over 80 contributors, 313 pages, fabulous CD, hurray! 11. _Essays Critical and Clinical_, Gilles Deleuze, U Minnesota, $17.95. His last book. Addresses Melville, Whitman, Lawrence, Beckett, Jarry, Carroll, Plato, Spinoza, Nietzsche, Heidegger, & friends. The first essay is is called "Literature and Life," the last, "The Exhausted." "There is no literature without fabulation. . ." 12. _Wall Street_, Doug Henwood, Verso, $25. "You are scum. . . it's tragic that you exist." -- Norman Pearlstine, former executive editor, Wall Street Journal 13. _The Conversions_, Harry Mathews, Dalkey Archive, $11.95. Reprint of 1962 novel. "It so happened that the national hockey championships were to be played in Paris on the evening picked for the Panarchist outbreak." 14. _The Journalist_, Harry Mathews, Dalkey Archive, $12.95. Previously published by Godine in '94. As an aid to recovering from a nervous breakdown, the narrator of _The Journalist_ begins to keep daily records of almost everything that goes on in his life. . . 15. _The Grouper_, Lissa McLaughlin, Avec Books, $8.50. "Something god-awful that you bought at a yard sale. You'll take it home. Maybe it talks to you." 16. _Membrane 2_, ed. Nigel Hinshelwood, $10. William Marsh, Jodi Bloom, Mike Hammer, Jesse Glass, Heather Fuller, Buck Downs, Beth Joselow, Bruce Andrews, Sheila E Murphy, W B Keckeler, Graham Foust, Mary Leader, Mark Wallace, Catherine Scherer, many others. 17. _Falling in Love Falling in Love With You Syntax: Selected and New Poems, Sheila E. Murphy, Potes & Poets, $16.50. From "A Pint of Training Wheels": "Easter comes to life all by itself. The niche market we are, crumb weary though accustomed. Who performs the teaching task associated with survival. Thinking does not constitute real work." 17. _catfishes & jackals_, plays by Susan Smith Nash, Potes & Poets, $12. Collects seven plays including "Clan Caliban," "Rose Lear," & "The Setting Face-to-Face in the clear light." "My. What a loud roar." "Squeaking is a kind of music. Right?" 18. _Collected Prose_, Charles Olson, ed. Donald Allen and Benjamin Friedlander with introduction by Creeley, Robert, U Cal Press, $19.95. Here it all is right here wow. The sections, each containing several pieces: "Call Me Ishmael" (yes, it's all of it), "On Melville, Dostoevsky, Lawrence, and Pound," "Human Universe," "The Present Is Prologue," "Poetry and Poets," "Space and Time," and "Other Essays, Notes, and Reviews." ". . .form is _before_ ideas, Grover Boy. . ." 19. _Selected Poems_, Charles Olson, edited by Robert Creeley, U. Cal., $14.95. From the introduction: "It is to the point that in the exceptional scale and range of Olson's work a place of intimate order abides. Thus 'the fundament stays as put as the firmament.' Each of us must find our own way. 'By ear, he sd . . .' " 20. _Selected Letters of Charles Reznikoff 1917-1976_, ed. ed. Milton Hindus, Black Sparrow, $17.50. "By the way, I never said a word to Zukofsky about you: so don't worry about Oscar." 21. _Protective Immediacy_, Rod Smith, Potes & Poets ltd edition (30 copies), $25 (sorry no discount on this one). "You're always suspicious / that you may not be doing / what you think you're doing" 22. _Collected Poetry & Prose_, Wallace Stevens, Library of America, $35. 23. _The Poetic Avant-Garde: The Groups of Borges, Auden, & Breton_, Beret E. Strong, Northwestern U Press, $24.95. "There were other firsts as well." 24. _The Zinn Reader: Writings on Disobedience and Democracy_, Howard Zinn, Seven Stories Press, Howard Zinn, $19.95. 25. Selected Poetics List bestsellas from previous Bridge St posts: _Aesthetic Theory_, Theodor W. Adorno, $39.95 cl. _The L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E Book_ ed. Bruce Andrews & Charles Bernstein, Southern Illonois, $18.95. _The Mooring of Starting Out: The First Five Books of Poetry_, John Ashbery, Ecco, $25. _On the Level Everyday: Selected Takes on Poetry and the Art of Living_, Ted Berrigan, Talisman, $12.95. _Rebecca Letters_, Laynie Browne, Kelsey St., $10. _Ghostlier Demarcations: Modern Poetry and the Material Word_, Michael Davidson, U. Cal., $35 _Guy Debord--Revolutionary: A Critical Biography, Len Bracken, Feral House, $14.95. _Politics of Friendship_, Jacques Derrida, Verso, $20. _il cuore : the heart : selected poems 1970--1995_, Kathleen Fraser, Wesleyan, $16.95. _Luminous Dreams_, Allen Ginsberg, Zasterle, $10. _Hambone 13_, ed Nathaniel Mackey, $10. _Some Other Kind of Mission_, Lisa Jarnot, Burning Deck, $11. _Some of the Dharma_, Jack Kerouac, Viking, $32.50. _Continuous Discontinuous_, Andrew Levy, Potes & Poets, $13.50. _School of Fish_, Eileen Myles, Black Sparrow, $14. _Cells of Release_, Fiona Templeton, Roof, $13.95. _Another Language: Selected Poems_, Rosmarie Waldrop, Talisman, $10.50. _Frame (1971-1991)_, Barrett Watten, Sun & Moon, $13.95. Poetics folks receive free shipping on orders of more than $20. Free shipping + 10% discount on orders of more than $30. There are two ways to order. 1. E-mail your order to aerialedge@aol.com with your address & we will bill you with the books. or 2. via credit card-- you may call us at 202 965 5200 or e-mail aerialedge@aol.com w/ yr add, order, card # w/ exp date & we will send a receipt with the books. We must charge some shipping for orders out of the US. Bridge Street Books, 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW, Washington, DC 20007. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:26:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hahahahahahahahahahaha! At 01:25 PM 11/6/97 EST, you wrote: >On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 rob wilson said: >>life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for >>his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the >>earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor >>is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all >>points of exactitude. Rob Wilson > >The National Enquirer reported recently that Creeley (or "HM RC") was born >of a Virgin by syllabic conception & that his one eye is actually a >perfect heptapodromic crystal from the planet Jupiter; unknown to many, >he's also the inventor of a method of syntactic swimming called "the >Creeley". - Henry Gould > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:34:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yeah, and hg stands for Holy Ghost, too. >On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 rob wilson said: >>life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for >>his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the >>earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor >>is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all >>points of exactitude. Rob Wilson > >The National Enquirer reported recently that Creeley (or "HM RC") was born >of a Virgin by syllabic conception & that his one eye is actually a >perfect heptapodromic crystal from the planet Jupiter; unknown to many, >he's also the inventor of a method of syntactic swimming called "the >Creeley". - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:48:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: audiopoesis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A general query to the list... What is/are the best sources for purchasing poetry on tape and CD?? For many years I was on the mailing list of a company called Poets Audio Center, whose catalog rounded up everything they handled, whic h was a reasonable range of stuff..Mostly contemporary but also people reading Shakespeare, Chaucer, Shelley etc. If there were never too many items radically outside the academic mainstream, I figured that was because there weren't that many available--certainly not as well-distributed as things by Caedmon and the like... What I'm trying to track down is a source that (like the PAC to some extent did) can be a source for finding out what's commercially available, in the first place, as well as for ordering. As a library acquisitions person, my skills and tools are all about traking down this kind of info...And at the moment I can't find much. I would guess that the Poets Audio Center is kaput, as I can find so little trace of 'em. thanx, Mark P. Atlanta ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:48:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: New Pubs Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A quick reminder that there are five new publication listings at http://www.litpress.com including Tinfish, Ribot, Gas and others. --Chris Reiner ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 13:27:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Ludwig von Glass In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think except for the valuation of Glass we're in agreement. Cats is probably better art than glass. There. I've waved a red flag. At 10:34 AM 11/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >Mark, > >What I had in mind was not the integrity of either Beethoven or Glass, and >the same follows for Pope or Wordsworth or cummings. I find a vast >difference between listening to Beethoven out of his cultural context and >Glass within his. Beethoven is meaningful to me because his work is still >being carried on. There are (at least!) two ways of approaching the >tradition of art or poetics: 1) there is a canon of achievement which we >can celebrate and learn from, and 2) there is a tradition of creation which >gave rise to that canon and which is ongoing. We can approach the act of >art through 1 or 2, but there is a cost to both. My bias is with 2. Yours >appears to be with 1. I think if students are going to some day be true >writers or readers, we need to incorporate both approaches. At the very >least, whatever approach we choose contains its own hidden biases. They may >be the strongest of all. This goes for Pina Bausch's company, too. Whatever >the attractions of her art, it is still created in a context. I'd like to >be clear on that context before I re-created the art, or we will actually >be re-creating something entirely different, perhaps merely our own biases. >Some translation is probably necessary. The whole point was that we should >be clear what we are doing when we spend our meagre resources so that we >can get the most from the least. If money is really tight, then I feel we >need to spend it wherever it can start a momentum of its own. Ah, heck, >that's probably what you meant, too. > >Best, > >Harold Rhenisch > >********* >Mark Weiss wrote: > >No, Glass does not inform the appreciation of nor influence the survival of >Beethoven. The late quartets, the last three piano sonatas and the diabelli >variations have a lot more to do with it, and I'd guess that the vast >majority of those who learn from Beethoven are only dimly aware of Glass. >But that's rather beside the point. I think you're contending that only >those who make art can teach it, and only teaching the making can imbue the >love of same. If that were true there'd be a very small audience. Myself, I >barely whistle, and barely scribble, but I think I've managed to turn on >more than a few to musical and visual thought--and the examplary passion is >a large part of the persuasion. Some of those so persuaded, given the luck >and talent, will make new things themselves. Others will value what's made >and lead richer lives for the time given. > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:41:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stacie Slotnick Subject: Re: audiopoesis MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I remember seeing once in the newsletter of the Academy of American Poets that they sell copies of their recordings. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 16:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov Comments: To: Brent Long MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN ---------- From: Brent Long To: POETICS Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 4:35PM hahahahahahahahahahaha! At 01:25 PM 11/6/97 EST, you wrote: >On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 rob wilson said: >>life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for >>his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the >>earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor >>is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all >>points of exactitude. Rob Wilson > >The National Enquirer reported recently that Creeley (or "HM RC") was born >of a Virgin by syllabic conception & that his one eye is actually a >perfect heptapodromic crystal from the planet Jupiter; unknown to many, >he's also the inventor of a method of syntactic swimming called "the >Creeley". - Henry Gould > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:00:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov Comments: To: Brent Long MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN When I think of Merwin, the word "attentuated" comes to mind. It seems to me his work once inhabited a fairly vital sphere of language - but he staked everything, as it were, on a longing for the sublime - a sublime that required no real sacrifice on his part, a sublime that was mostly notable for the pretty clothes and miming of transcendence he decked it out in ala a cut rate Wallace Stevens - and it seems to me he's lost that wager. Rob cites Merwin's appropriation of Hawaii as a trope of rejuvenation and this too feels like a move borne from desperation. Appropriation of course is fine all of itself. But in Merwin's more recent work it feels all very thin and transparent, all very achey-breaky with sincerity, with a jesting about wounds that never felt the scars. I can no longer read either _The Lice_ nor _Carriers_ with any enjoyment - works which 10 years ago animated me. There was one poem in _Vixen_ - "Substance" I think it was - which I thought was pretty good - that is, I thought he'd managed for once not to box himself in with Merwinisms - his ardent dying falls and metaphysical nostalgias. Or rather, he gathered these concerns up very tightly and overcame their specific limitations. I'd also second Rob's contention that Creeley's "Histoire du Florida" (not the correct "Floride" as RC defiantly noted last spring here in Boulder) is a bloody wonderful poem. ---------- From: Brent Long To: POETICS Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 Date: Thursday, November 06, 1997 4:35PM hahahahahahahahahahaha! At 01:25 PM 11/6/97 EST, you wrote: >On Thu, 6 Nov 1997 06:56:16 -1000 rob wilson said: >>life. Pretty amazing event. Many who left the audience were grateful for >>his work, for him, as Paul Bove was said "this is a great man on the >>earth." There is no such thing as "the Creeley" and never will be. Honor >>is indeed due. The amazing coming to terms with his body and vision at all >>points of exactitude. Rob Wilson > >The National Enquirer reported recently that Creeley (or "HM RC") was born >of a Virgin by syllabic conception & that his one eye is actually a >perfect heptapodromic crystal from the planet Jupiter; unknown to many, >he's also the inventor of a method of syntactic swimming called "the >Creeley". - Henry Gould > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 19:55:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: computer program for syntactic structures In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Re: David Benedetti poem-making program -- check out Charles O Hartman's book >"Vitual Muse," from last year (Wesleyan UP), where various such programs are >described & some of their texts displayed. The poems are not all that strong, >frankly, but they do belong to recognizable types of contemporary poetry, >which >I think is interesting. Hartman's reflections on his experience with >these pro >grams are also interesting -- not profound, but a place to start. > Brian You can go to Hartman's web page (http://www.conncoll.edu/ccother/cohar/) and download one of his programs (MacProse, a text generator for Macintosh). It'll generate things like this: "Where we were theories, the equation--ice--was the library." It'll generate one at a time, or continuously (very quickly in fact, until you click). An interesting and useful tool, with some obvious limitations if you use for awhile (certain grammatical constructions tend to recur with peculiar frequency . . .the source code is included, so I suppose one could edit it) Dean ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:02:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Tate" Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: <971105173041_1828114927@mrin47> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Another book if interest might be Amittai Aviram's *Telling Rhythm: Body and Meaning in Poetry* (Ann Arbor: U of Mich Press, 1994). Very different from Turner, and very readable. Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English U. of Washington, Seattle On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Aviva Vogel wrote: > Joseph, as a hand-drummer (African/Cuban/Haitian folkloric styles, etc.), > that book might just be the answer to a previously unfulfilled quest to > understand better our affinities with rhythm. Thanks for that comment. As > to how applicable his theories are to poetry, or how well-supported they are, > I guess I'm gonna have to find out for myself. I'm not (currently) > super-interested in formal poetry, and never have been, but I leave no stone > unturned in my investigations to understand all I can. > > Thanks, Aviva > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 17:15:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Tate" Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: <01bcea3b$a16d5bc0$49cc0398@DKellogg.Dukeedu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, David Kellogg wrote: > I think it's a three second, not three minute, line buffer. That'd be a > long line. Yes, my mistake. I'm glad you caught that. > I don't doubt the usefulness of neurobiology for studying rhythm or any > other aspect of poetry or poetic form. (I used to be managing editor of > _The Journal of Neuroscience_ and I currently teach in an special program > combining neurobiology, philosophy of mind, cognitive anthropology, clinical > psychology, and cognitive linguistics; so I'm a pretty big fan of the > neurosciences.) > > Rhythm is biological, cognitive, cultural, and sociopolitical, yes: but the > stupidity of Turner's essay is in its prescriptive project, an a priori > description of rhythm in terms that lead directly to the New Formalism. How > handy. It is a perfect example of what B. H. Smith, following Pierre > Bourdieu, has called "the Others' Poison Effect": what is bad for you must > be bad for others. Subsuming meter to neural firings (and secondarily to > breath and heartbeat, in a bizarre anti-Olson riff) for Turner means in the > end that metered poetry is healthy and free verse neither healthy nor, as he > says in a footnote somewhere, even really poetry. But if so, how come what > would give Turner a heart attack really makes me groove? Good Doc Turner > wants to give me a poetic pacemaker; says I've got me a baaaad ticker. I heartily agree with this assessment. Turner tends to uncomplicate, for instance, the political implications of rhythm. Rhythm for him seems perfectly liberatory, necessarily democratic and therefore "Good." But, as I'm sure you can speak to better than I can, different paced rhythms tend to have different physical effects. Slower rhythms can lull us to sleep, and, if paced too fast, a rhythm can lead to anarchic madness. Sleep and madness ain't too liberatory to me. Yet, while I agree with you, I seem to have found few others who even try to join the discussion of poetic meter and psychobiology at all. Do you have any suggestions on where to find more adequate discussions of the intersection of the two, poetic rhythm and neuroscience? I've turned up interesting research on music and neuroscience, but little on poetry. Best, Joseph Tate Graduate Student U. of Washington, Seattle ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:24:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Subject: Re: Other poetry discussions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCEAF2.36140C40" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCEAF2.36140C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just to let you know--not only was Rosmarie Waldrop's reading last night = wonderful, but Jacques Roubaud was quite a kick too! Hopefully one is = able to find his books in print here in the US. Discussion of more = contemporary poets is always welcome to me. ---------- From: Brent Long Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 1997 1:30 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Other poetry discussions I have been thinking about the idea of other discussion lists this = morning, and am wondering why there are no discussions on some of the other contemporary poets that are around these days. I never hear anything on Merwin (a personal favorite of mine) or Levertov or other writers like that. I saw a posting today announcing Rosmarie Waldrop's upcoming = reading tonight, but she and her work are never discussed here, either, and that = is a shame. She and her husband are both amazing poets. I certainly don't = see myself as being attracted to only one or two "styles" of poetry, and = would really like to see a broad range of writers and styles addressed. What do some of you think? Is there a call to pursue this? 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I tried reading a little of Merwin along with other anecdotal poets about 35 years ago, and could not see any reason for going on. It seemed to be all here I am, there nature is, here's a neat conclusion. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 20:25:40 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hg Subject: computer-generated poetry bleep-bleep bleep bleep -- bleep bleep? bleep, bleep, bleep; bleep. bleep! !bleep bleep. bleep; bleep, bleep ?bleep bleep -- bleep bleep bleep-bleep - hey, this looks a lot like THE ILIAD. - hg, a.k.a. Hominy Grits ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 18:05:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Speaking American Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:15:18 -0600 (CST) >From: Michael Quilty >X-Sender: mquilty@comp >Speaking American > > >Sometimes you forget that you're in an Alien land in which you can never >expect to be comfortable. Then, fortunately, you're reminded. > >It was in the last half-decade of the twentieth centuy that I arrived in >that odd country called 'The United States'. When I lived in Canada I >confessed to one day wanting to visit four American cities--Boston, New >York, San Francisco, and New Orleans. I ended up in a paint fleck of a >town called Fayetteville, Arkansas, a fleck whose main significance at the >time was that it was where former President Bill Clinton and his wife >Hilary bought their first house. > >That first year was largely one of observation, since [though I had met >Americans before] I had never been in such close proximity to so many of >these peculiar creatures at once. As I was an Anglophone Canadian [a >species of North American prone to identity crises], the observation was >punctuated by long spells of morose introspection, with which I will not >burden you. I was able to protect myself from the full force of America >that first year because, by happy accident, I ended up in a dorm that was >peopled mostly by foreign students. I was thus able to bond with a >community which saw the natives to be as unusual as I did. > >It was around the beginning of my second year there that I realised that, >backwater that it is, Arkansas was a microcosm of all that was happening >in the United States at the time. I was able to reach this conclusion >because, starting in the second year, my expereince with the people of the >Arkansas was intensified, and diffracted, through the lens of the >classroom. I was associated with one of the departments of the University >of Arkansas, a department which believed that its graduate students should >work as qualified professors while being paid as if they were teaching >assistants, which was my official title. > >My last stop in the academic transhumance of 'teaching assistantship' was >on the West coast of Canada, in Vancouver, and it was there that I had had >my most recent classroom experiences. On the surface the students seemed >not so different from the kids I had encountered in Vancouver--innocent >types, tarty types, crunchy types, jocks, well-educated and intelligent >Europeans (both young women as it happens), a mature student who knew more >about the subject than I did, but who refrained from speaking up in class >for fear of dominating it, a smattering of American imports, and the odd >hard-working intelligent local young person. Odd, I must stress odd. > >Sometimes, though, there are strong currents running 'neath the surface of >the seemingly most stagnant of pools. By about the mid-point of the >semester I was dragging my increasingly bored charges through the late >Roman Empire and interregnum. Time, then, for Christianity to rear its >ugly head as a topic of discussion. I remember now receiving warnings >about how dangerous this would be from a former colleague of mine [she had >since fled the sinking ship of the King Fahd Centre for UCLA] but in that >hectic semester the warnings had obviously remained neglected under some >pile of papers or dirty laundry somewhere. > >My students weren't doing particularly well on my weekly quizzes, designed >to allow them to show me that they'd read and understood the textbook >[which was pitched, I believe, to a tenth-grade reading level]. But, I >reasoned, History is really about sources and biases, so I allowed them to >make up extra credit by eye-balling one of the documents in the textbook >and putting it in the context of that week's chronology [I laughingly >refered to this exercise in summary as 'primary source analysis']. They >hadn't been doing very well with these either, which led me to believe >that tenth grade is no longer what it used to be, or perhaps no longer >what it used to be in the United States. > >When Christianity reared itself up out of the frothy waters of the Roman >Imperial period, there was a sudden overwhelming demand from students to >prepare an analysis of a particular document--a snippit from the Sermon on >the Mount. The students who won the lottery were, both of them, >soft-spoken and not terribly bright older women. When the time came for >them to present their 'analyses' they [independently] gave me the least >historical treatment of a document that I have ever seen. The problem >didn't rest with the presenters' intellectual short-comings, but >in the rest of the class. Though willing to pour their scepticism over >the documents dealing with the [up to that point pagan] political figures >in the text, this scepticism was now replaced by vacuous smiles, >head-nodding, and (to my dismay) scramblings to THEIR BIBLES to answer a >question I asked about whether or not the evangelist Matthew was one of >the Apostles. > >Around the centre of the classroom there were a clot of two or three guys, >all sharing a bible. When they came to the passage that they were looking >for [a confirmation (I assume) that Matthew was, in fact, one of the >apostles] they all made made fists with their right hands and punched the >air in celebration. It was much the same gesture that I have seen on the >part of men watching baseball on television. After an ad-long debate on >some fine statistical point or other [number of errors or Rs-B-I on the >part of a particular player, etc.], the colour commentator returns to >verify the claims of one beer-drinking statistician or the other. Thence >the air-punching. > >'My god,' I said to one of my skater-boys, a pair of silver lame glasses >adorning his bleached hair, 'you're packin' a Bible?' > >'Of course,' he smiled. > >Turns out most of them were carrying Bibles. And most of them worked very >hard to turn the rest of the period into a revivalist 'Let us declare our >faith unto HIM' session. My increasingly frazzled [I'd been up since two >in the morning working on a presentation] efforts to coax them back to an >'analytical' frame of mind were met by stares of incomprehension. Clearly >Christianity was not an appropriate subject for historical analysis. > >This should not have surprised me, since Arkansas is an integral part of >the post-consumerist paunch fettered beneath the Bible Belt. But I was >surprised, and deceived, by the apparent normalcy of my students. The >following week when I attempted to discuss the role of syncretism in the >rise of Chistianity in the West--the way the early Christians placed >certain feasts on the same days as older pagan festivals as a way of >improving sales in those communities--the vacuous smiles turned to >brow-furrowed hostility. > >'You mean to tell me,' demanded one young fellow who insisted upon >calling himself a History major, 'that all our feast days are MAN-MADE?' > >I blinked back at him, wondering what he could be asking. > >'Of course they're man-made. Who else do you think made them?' > >More disturbing to me was the students' readiness to resume their cynicism >about the material as soon as the early Christianity of the martyrs became >'Catholic Christianity,' since Catholicism is 'Worldly Anti-Christianity', >the Whore of Babylon, and all that. It is not so much their intimate >association with the early Christian church that bothers me--that's what >Protestantism is all about, isn't it. It is their self-separation from >the long continuity of History [and for that matter Christianity after the >consolidation of the Roman church] that is so worrisome. It is as if >these people are reacting against the worldly excesses of late imperial >America by removing themselves from the world, just like the Hellenistic >philosophies and religions--the early Epicurians and Mystery >Religions--tried to do. 'Epicurians.' 'Mystery religions.' Subjects >described in this textbook that my students swear they read but which they >do not understand. > >These the citizens of the mightiest military-and-democratic power in the >world. > George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 21:16:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Speaking American In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's a couple of stories from two classes that I taught in Tucson. Call them extensions of and partial correctives to your data. I arrived in Tucson on the eve of the Gulf War. In all that patriotic frenzy I decided to ask my Freshman Comp students to write about the crisis from Saddam Hussein's point of view. None of them would do it--they thought that even entertaining the fantasy was unpatriotic. Half of them transferred out of my class, which wasn't such a bad thing--it actually made it possible for me to teach the remnant. Of those left about a third were hispanic, and all professed to be Christians. Before Easter I suggested that some of them might like to go to Old Pascua, a tiny Yaqui reservation surrounded by Tucson, to see the half-pagan ceremonies, at which point my brightest student raised his hand and asked, "Mark, what's Easter about?" When I was able to get my mouth working again I determined that he wasn't putting me on, and I asked the class which of them knew that Easter was a celebration of the crucifiction and resurrection of Christ. Only the hispanic kids raised their hands. In the ensuing discussion I learned that for the other kids Easter had always been a secular holiday for Christian children, involving bunnies and chocolate. During my second year in Tucson I taught an American lit course. I had the kids read a rather floridly Calvinist captivity narrative. What they found most exotic about it was the brand of Christianity. To a man or woman they professed membership in radical Protestant sects, but they didn't recognize the protagonist as a coreligionist. They all believed in god, virgin birth, baby Jesus and heaven, but they didn't believe in hell and had never heard of original sin. This same group, when I polled them when we were reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas (it was an interesting, not to say eccentric, syllabus), admitted, with two exceptions, to smoking pot, and with three exceptions, to snorting coke. So maybe the defensiveness about their religion, and the bigotry, remain, but not much else. Those kids who carried their bibles nonetheless had to check before answering even the simplest questions, after all. And maybe all those surveys that purport to tell us that Americans are the most religious people on earth, greatly comforting the Christian Coalition, ask the wrong questions. Apparently it's the Disney version, not the King James, that the kids and their elders are reading. Is that a hopeful thought? At 06:05 PM 11/6/97 -0700, you wrote: >>Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:15:18 -0600 (CST) >>From: Michael Quilty >>X-Sender: mquilty@comp > >>Speaking American >> >> >>Sometimes you forget that you're in an Alien land in which you can never >>expect to be comfortable. Then, fortunately, you're reminded. >> >>It was in the last half-decade of the twentieth centuy that I arrived in >>that odd country called 'The United States'. When I lived in Canada I >>confessed to one day wanting to visit four American cities--Boston, New >>York, San Francisco, and New Orleans. I ended up in a paint fleck of a >>town called Fayetteville, Arkansas, a fleck whose main significance at the >>time was that it was where former President Bill Clinton and his wife >>Hilary bought their first house. >> >>That first year was largely one of observation, since [though I had met >>Americans before] I had never been in such close proximity to so many of >>these peculiar creatures at once. As I was an Anglophone Canadian [a >>species of North American prone to identity crises], the observation was >>punctuated by long spells of morose introspection, with which I will not >>burden you. I was able to protect myself from the full force of America >>that first year because, by happy accident, I ended up in a dorm that was >>peopled mostly by foreign students. I was thus able to bond with a >>community which saw the natives to be as unusual as I did. >> >>It was around the beginning of my second year there that I realised that, >>backwater that it is, Arkansas was a microcosm of all that was happening >>in the United States at the time. I was able to reach this conclusion >>because, starting in the second year, my expereince with the people of the >>Arkansas was intensified, and diffracted, through the lens of the >>classroom. I was associated with one of the departments of the University >>of Arkansas, a department which believed that its graduate students should >>work as qualified professors while being paid as if they were teaching >>assistants, which was my official title. >> >>My last stop in the academic transhumance of 'teaching assistantship' was >>on the West coast of Canada, in Vancouver, and it was there that I had had >>my most recent classroom experiences. On the surface the students seemed >>not so different from the kids I had encountered in Vancouver--innocent >>types, tarty types, crunchy types, jocks, well-educated and intelligent >>Europeans (both young women as it happens), a mature student who knew more >>about the subject than I did, but who refrained from speaking up in class >>for fear of dominating it, a smattering of American imports, and the odd >>hard-working intelligent local young person. Odd, I must stress odd. >> >>Sometimes, though, there are strong currents running 'neath the surface of >>the seemingly most stagnant of pools. By about the mid-point of the >>semester I was dragging my increasingly bored charges through the late >>Roman Empire and interregnum. Time, then, for Christianity to rear its >>ugly head as a topic of discussion. I remember now receiving warnings >>about how dangerous this would be from a former colleague of mine [she had >>since fled the sinking ship of the King Fahd Centre for UCLA] but in that >>hectic semester the warnings had obviously remained neglected under some >>pile of papers or dirty laundry somewhere. >> >>My students weren't doing particularly well on my weekly quizzes, designed >>to allow them to show me that they'd read and understood the textbook >>[which was pitched, I believe, to a tenth-grade reading level]. But, I >>reasoned, History is really about sources and biases, so I allowed them to >>make up extra credit by eye-balling one of the documents in the textbook >>and putting it in the context of that week's chronology [I laughingly >>refered to this exercise in summary as 'primary source analysis']. They >>hadn't been doing very well with these either, which led me to believe >>that tenth grade is no longer what it used to be, or perhaps no longer >>what it used to be in the United States. >> >>When Christianity reared itself up out of the frothy waters of the Roman >>Imperial period, there was a sudden overwhelming demand from students to >>prepare an analysis of a particular document--a snippit from the Sermon on >>the Mount. The students who won the lottery were, both of them, >>soft-spoken and not terribly bright older women. When the time came for >>them to present their 'analyses' they [independently] gave me the least >>historical treatment of a document that I have ever seen. The problem >>didn't rest with the presenters' intellectual short-comings, but >>in the rest of the class. Though willing to pour their scepticism over >>the documents dealing with the [up to that point pagan] political figures >>in the text, this scepticism was now replaced by vacuous smiles, >>head-nodding, and (to my dismay) scramblings to THEIR BIBLES to answer a >>question I asked about whether or not the evangelist Matthew was one of >>the Apostles. >> >>Around the centre of the classroom there were a clot of two or three guys, >>all sharing a bible. When they came to the passage that they were looking >>for [a confirmation (I assume) that Matthew was, in fact, one of the >>apostles] they all made made fists with their right hands and punched the >>air in celebration. It was much the same gesture that I have seen on the >>part of men watching baseball on television. After an ad-long debate on >>some fine statistical point or other [number of errors or Rs-B-I on the >>part of a particular player, etc.], the colour commentator returns to >>verify the claims of one beer-drinking statistician or the other. Thence >>the air-punching. >> >>'My god,' I said to one of my skater-boys, a pair of silver lame glasses >>adorning his bleached hair, 'you're packin' a Bible?' >> >>'Of course,' he smiled. >> >>Turns out most of them were carrying Bibles. And most of them worked very >>hard to turn the rest of the period into a revivalist 'Let us declare our >>faith unto HIM' session. My increasingly frazzled [I'd been up since two >>in the morning working on a presentation] efforts to coax them back to an >>'analytical' frame of mind were met by stares of incomprehension. Clearly >>Christianity was not an appropriate subject for historical analysis. >> >>This should not have surprised me, since Arkansas is an integral part of >>the post-consumerist paunch fettered beneath the Bible Belt. But I was >>surprised, and deceived, by the apparent normalcy of my students. The >>following week when I attempted to discuss the role of syncretism in the >>rise of Chistianity in the West--the way the early Christians placed >>certain feasts on the same days as older pagan festivals as a way of >>improving sales in those communities--the vacuous smiles turned to >>brow-furrowed hostility. >> >>'You mean to tell me,' demanded one young fellow who insisted upon >>calling himself a History major, 'that all our feast days are MAN-MADE?' >> >>I blinked back at him, wondering what he could be asking. >> >>'Of course they're man-made. Who else do you think made them?' >> >>More disturbing to me was the students' readiness to resume their cynicism >>about the material as soon as the early Christianity of the martyrs became >>'Catholic Christianity,' since Catholicism is 'Worldly Anti-Christianity', >>the Whore of Babylon, and all that. It is not so much their intimate >>association with the early Christian church that bothers me--that's what >>Protestantism is all about, isn't it. It is their self-separation from >>the long continuity of History [and for that matter Christianity after the >>consolidation of the Roman church] that is so worrisome. It is as if >>these people are reacting against the worldly excesses of late imperial >>America by removing themselves from the world, just like the Hellenistic >>philosophies and religions--the early Epicurians and Mystery >>Religions--tried to do. 'Epicurians.' 'Mystery religions.' Subjects >>described in this textbook that my students swear they read but which they >>do not understand. >> >>These the citizens of the mightiest military-and-democratic power in the >>world. >> > > > > >George Bowering. > , >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 23:56:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov Brent, interesting and well-articulated comments on Merwin. Haven't read enough to have an opinion myself, or respond to your critique, but I'm challenged to go and check out your points. Thanks, Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:24:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: recent french poetry In-Reply-To: <199711070500.AAA29460@romeo.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII speaking of roubaud, i've been reading around a lot in the likes of michel deguy, jacques dupin, anne-marie albiach, claude royet-journoud, emmanuel hocquard, jean davie, claire malroux, et al. any other names i should be checking out, esp., say, folks born after 1950? thanks bunches, t. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 00:51:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patricia Cockram Subject: Re: Modernism discussion list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Modernism is often a very lively list, but it is not all poetry. It is useful for those of us interested in interdisciplinary issues, as it often includes art, music, politics, etc. Patricia At 11:59 AM 11/5/97 -0600, you wrote: >A modernism discussion list already exists--at the >University of Washington. > >Just send an e-mail note--no subject--to: > >listproc@u.washington.edu > >and just type as the body of the message: > >subscribe modernism > >After a little while you'll get an e-mail note asking you to confirm >your request. Just reply and you're on! > >I've been on the list for a couple of weeks now and haven't gotten very >much mail. . . . so I don't know how lively, long, and involved the threads >get. > >Maybe we can perk it up a bit. > >Hope this is helpful. > >Peter Zukowski >zukowski@uic.edu > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 22:39:59 -0800 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: FRENCH POETS b. after 1950 -- aka RADDLE MOON 16 launch at EAR at HERE] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dear Tom Orange, dear List, RE: [very] recent French poetry, previously unavailable in English translation, here's a reposting of the announcement of the RADDLE MOON 16 launch in the Ear at HERE series later this month. On Novenmber 22, there will be a book party/benefit launch for RADDLE MOON 16 : * 22 New [to North America] French Writers * guest-edited by Norma Cole and Stacy Doris New York area contributors to this issue -- Ann Lauterbach, Sianne Ngai, Serge Gavronsky, Melanie Neilson, Lee Ann Brown, Nick Piombino, Richard Sieburth, Fiona Templeton, Chet Wiener, Jena Osman, Eleni Sikelianos and Stacy Doris -- are invited to read from their translations of Hubert Lucot, le Lievre de Mars, Albane Provoust, Sandra Moussempes, [OULIPO- associated] Michelle Grangaud, Kati Molnar, Christophe Tarkos, Isabelle Garo, Annie Zadek, Josee Lapeyriere, Veronique Vassiliou, and Christophe Marchand-Kiss [please fill in accents, Netscape won't] The 200-page issue also includes the work of : Elisabeth Jacquet, Manuel Joseph, Sabine Macher, Sebastien Smirou, Huguette Champroux, Caroline Dubois, Cecile Gaudin, and Oscarine Bosquet translated by other Canadian and US poets as well one untranslated work [a "poeme-installation," 19 Jours de Chant] and an image/text piece, "7 Adieux" both by Frederique Guetat-Liviani It's the last event in the Ear at HERE series before Thanksgiving, so drop by Saturday at 3 pm, Nov. 22 at HERE, 145 6th Ave (between Spring and Broome) NYC !refreshments! RADDLE MOON is also available by subscription [$15] or single copy [$10] from RADDLE MOON, MainSpace, 518-350 East Second Avenue, Vancouver, BC V5T 4R8 Canada. [US people please pay in US dollars; cheques/checks and money orders to RADDLE MOON ok], or through Small Press Distribution [San Francisco]. Hope to see you there, Susan Clark clarkd@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:32:11 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: mainstream website Comments: To: british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mainstream website effectively does not exist at present relaunch has been delayed you can still reach my old site on Compuserve but that is because compuserve will not close it despite having had money taken back from them by visa apologies for confusion and still more for non availability - it will be launched againas soon as it is possible to do so probably on a _global_ server ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:17:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: a noun-cement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Was asked by no-cyborgians to pass the following messages along, like stuff's happening in nueva york -- here goes, Pierre: URGENT ANNOUNCEMENT of vital importance to the poetry community !!! Communique from Tony Dohr: "Here & forth with, let it be known to all that a SPONTANEOUS & AUTONOMOUS Poetry Conference has been declaired." Where: NEW YOURK CITY When: November 12th through November 16th What: Wednsday November 12th at st. marks church (2nd ave. & 10th street--8pm) PETER GIZZI & LORENZO THOMAS "Two reader's spelled with three Z's, how exciting!" --Vladimir Klebnikov Thursday November 13th poetry city (5 union sqare west, 7th floor--7pm) ANDREA BRADY & JENNIFER MOXLEY "Cecil = Yes" --Konrad Adenaour Friday November 14th st. marks church (2nd ave. & 10th st--10:30 pm) Book party for CHRIS STROPHOLINO, MITCH HIGHFIL, YUKI HARTMAN, & DGLS ROTHSCHILD "I am a Transparent Eye-Ball" --Rod Smith Saturday November 15th here (6th ave. & Dominic st.--3pm) JUDITH GOLDMAN & JOHANNA DRUCKER "Think of me when this you see" --Gertrude Stein Sunday November 16th zinc bar (90 West Houston 630 pm) VOLE with PETER CULLEY & Special Guests "The greatest Rock-&-Roll band in the history of western civilization" --Bob Zimmerman Besides the readers, other people who will be in town, though i cannot guarentee that they will talk to you--Bruce Andrews, Anselm Berrigan, Leanne Brown, Brenda Coultas, Kevin Davies, Jordan Davis, Tim Davis, Stacy Doris, Joe Eliot, Steve Evans, Dan Farrell, Ed Friedman, Rob Fitterman, Drew Gardner, Lisa Jarnot, Garrett Kalenburg, Sean Killian, Deirdre Kovaks, Andy Levy, Kim Lyons, Jackson Mac Low, Sianne Ngai, Heather Ramsdale, Kim Rosenfeld, Elanie Siklianous, Brian Kim Stefans, Gary Sullivan, Chet Wiener & many more !!!!! (P.S. By saying that i wasn't guarenteeing that they will speak with you i was just stating the obvious, not implying that these people are snooty or anything.) EVERY ONE IS WELCOME !! YOU DON'T NEED CREDENTIALS !! Just come & hang out, there will be people standing around talking about poetry--get to know them. & though you "Don't need no stinking badges" if you happen to have one that identifies you as an AUTONOMOUS SPONTANEOUS Conferee, you will be easier to pick out of a crowd. Badges (for those without magic markers & access to label paper) will be available (of a kind) at the door on opening night (wed.) {however we encourage you to make your own. All are welcome! Passs the word arround, this is a real conference, only people willing to crash are invited. Please help get the word out. KEEP POETRY ALIVE !! -T.Dohr -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think there is a world market for about five computers.' -Thomas J. Watson Chairman of the Board-IBM, 1943 ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:33:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: audiopoesis In-Reply-To: <01IPP4VDS002QR8MX8@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Right.... I'm precisely looking for an operation that can provide info about recordings from a wide range of sources. Most easily-contacted outfits like the AAP offer only one very narrow definition of poetry (and it ain't, to put it mildly, mine!!) On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Stacie Slotnick wrote: > I remember seeing once in the newsletter of the Academy of American Poets > that they sell copies of their recordings. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:53:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: C.D. Wright/Other poets for discussion Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ok, so how about discussing C.D. Wright's most recent book of poetry, "Tremble". For those of you who have read it, I must say that it is one of the most well-crafted and beautiful collections i have read in quite a while. Far different from some of her other books (i.e. String Light, Translation of the Gospels Back Into Tongues, etc.), she really paid attention to the details of craft and cadence. I saw her read in Cambridge with Paul Hoover a few weeks ago, and it was delightful. She also read from a new work which will be published by New Directions in 1998. Also, her husband, Forrest Gander, has a new book coming out in April, and he, too, is a fine writer. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: audiopoesis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Might also check with Bob Holman from Mouth Almighty Records. As you will recall, Bob is the genius who did the United States of Poetry and probably would have some good info. for you. Brent At 09:33 AM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >Right.... >I'm precisely looking for an operation that can provide info about >recordings from a wide range of sources. Most easily-contacted outfits >like the AAP offer only one very narrow definition of poetry (and it >ain't, to put it mildly, mine!!) > >On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Stacie Slotnick wrote: > >> I remember seeing once in the newsletter of the Academy of American Poets >> that they sell copies of their recordings. >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:14:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: recent french poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII /Toward a New Poetics: Contemporary Writing in France/, edited by Serge Gavronsky, no mean word-slinger hisself, has a whole mess of these cool folks between two purple covers--U. of California Press, 0-520-08793-3. On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Tom Orange wrote: > speaking of roubaud, i've been reading around a lot in the likes of > michel deguy, jacques dupin, anne-marie albiach, claude royet-journoud, > emmanuel hocquard, jean davie, claire malroux, et al. any other names i > should be checking out, esp., say, folks born after 1950? > > thanks bunches, > t. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:17:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cloward@UTDALLAS.EDU Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To simply reject Frederick Turner's work as stupid is to dismiss some of the most important thinking being done today concerning the place of poetry in the world. While I agree that in the essay "The Neural Lyre" Turner can justifiably be accused of a certain amount of scientific reductionism, his work overall is perhaps the most interesting contemporary attempt to understand poetry as a universal human endeavor. I'm with Joseph Tate here, neurobiology does have some vital things to say about "what poetry is for." Turner's stance, at its heart is quite simple (see his book Natural Classicism for its most straight-forward elucidation): the roots of literature are in ritual performance and that, in turn, is rooted in our biological, evolutionary inheritance. Turner (incidentally, the son of the anthropologist Victor Turner) is the leading light of the New Formalist movement, with their evil agenda--defending narrative, rhyme and meter--and his poetic work, I think, will not appeal to many on this list, but I think it unwise to cursorily dismiss his writing. Turner is dealing with some vital and elementary questions in some surprisingly synthetic ways and, agree or disagree, some familiarity with his work is bound to deepen one's attempts to place the poetic impulse within the larger human endeavor. While I don't necessarily agree with Turner on his conclusions that current research justifies the type of closed structure he advocates, I have found his work, at the very least, a healthful corrective to some of the deadening and dysfunctional theory that currently bogs down contemporary work. Best, Tim Cloward Graduate Student University of Texas at Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:20:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Jennifer Moxley Comments: To: Pierre Joris In-Reply-To: <346314F9.3C7FA339@cnsunix.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone got an e-mail address for Jennifer Moxley? Would be appreciated. Patrick F. Durgin |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:18:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: audiopoesis In-Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar "Re: audiopoesis" (Nov 7, 9:33am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 7, 9:33am, Mark Prejsnar wrote: > Subject: Re: audiopoesis > Right.... > I'm precisely looking for an operation that can provide info about > recordings from a wide range of sources. Most easily-contacted outfits > like the AAP offer only one very narrow definition of poetry (and it > ain't, to put it mildly, mine!!) > > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Stacie Slotnick wrote: > > > I remember seeing once in the newsletter of the Academy of American Poets > > that they sell copies of their recordings. > > >-- End of excerpt from Mark Prejsnar Mark, There is a source of tape recordings of various poets, writers, and others (Noam Chomsky for example) with an outfit called Audio Forum. They claim to have 4,000 titles. They may also be able to point to other sources or listings. Hope this helps. William B. Audio Forum Room K609, 96 Broad St., Guilford, CT 06437 (203)453-9794 FAX: (203)453-9774 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:27:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: audiopoesis Mark P & others-- You might contact The Writer's Center in Bethesda MD re Watershed Tapes-- they've done Opeen, Schuyler, Ashbery, more of course along the Rich, Merwin, line-- but anycase, only place I've seen that has Watershed Tapes (Poet's Audio Center) in last few years. Also, doesn't Naropa sell tapes? I have a Coolidge & a Cage tape from there. --Rod ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:16:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Ludwig von Glass Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mark weiss said: And I'd say yes you have. I am not a great fan of Glass, preferring Adams, Bryars, Nyman, Riech, Tower, for example. But Cats? Jeez, it was bad enough, & everything since even worse. Come on, Mark, someone who appreciates the late Beethoven quartets can do better than this... But I rather like hearing them in the context of contemporary quartets as mucyh as hearing those recent works in the context of B's amazing work, just as I find it interesting to view some late Degas as contextualized by Rothko. There are lines of flight & connection between the great moments of art...hmm? ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That which we took so much for granted --Holy poetry of water and of fire-- Is suddenly debatable. Gwendolyn MacEwen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:20:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Merwin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Generally, I'd have to side with Patrick Pritchett on this one, although I do like a lot of his translations. But I went after a lot of the early poetry, read it, & then put it away. In regard to Creeley, whose work I return to all the time, I just am not called back to the Merwin. Except for one book, published outside his usual venues, by the late lamented North Point, _Finding the Islands_, which was something of a formal move for him as well. Not 'great' but certainly of interest to this reader... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That which we took so much for granted --Holy poetry of water and of fire-- Is suddenly debatable. Gwendolyn MacEwen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 08:29:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: LAURA MORIARTY Subject: Re: audiopoesis In-Reply-To: <9711071018.ZM10528@plhp517.comm.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A few other sources for audio (and video) The Annenberg/CPB Project (800) 532-7637 (They did Voices & Visions) HarperCollins (Caedmon) (800) 331-3761 (This is an old source, not so contemporary.) Ladyslipper (919) 683-1570 (800) 634-6044 (Specializes in women. Catalogue lists tapes from various producers.) Not sure if this is still current. It is an old listing from the Poetry Center catslogue. There is a list of other audio and video sources at the back of the Poetry Center Catalogue published in 1990. Pacifica Foundation (818) 506-1077 (KPFA, KPFK, WBAI etc) I'm not sure they are still around to sell tapes. Poet's House (212) 627-4035 Were going to sell the tapes of 92nd St Y and Academy readings as of 1990 - The Roland Collection (British) (708) 291-9443 (US #) 011-44-79721421 Video - very large collection of weel-known writers Watershed has been mentioned (202) 722-9105 I find that doing a Hotbot or other search can result in finding new sources Of course the Poetry Center at SFSU has a large collection - for anyone new to the list. http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit Laura Moriarty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:06:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Ho Comments: To: cloward MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Interesting post, Tim. I'm by no means convinced however that poetry is _for_ anything, as you put it. For as soon as it's for something, it's also not for something else. In a word, this description smacks of the utilitarian. As Stephen Rodefer put it (quoted from Mark Prejsnar's latest ish of Misc. Proj) "It's not the business of poetry to be anything." I haven't read "The Neural Lyre," but from your account Turner appears to be falling into the old nostalgia of the arts to locate its roots in the empirical. I don't why people still fall prey to this anxiety - this desire to locate roots as though the biological of itself can confer legitimacy, can alleviate the angst which poetry suffers whenever it compares itself to the sciences. Isn't it enough to say that poetry is a cultural product? That whatever dim primeval impulse first stimulated its rudimentary expressions that by now - several millennia later - poetry is a cultural construction and requires no further justification than that? As if it needed any in the first place. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: cloward To: POETICS Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 9:51AM To simply reject Frederick Turner's work as stupid is to dismiss some of the most important thinking being done today concerning the place of poetry in the world. While I agree that in the essay "The Neural Lyre" Turner can justifiably be accused of a certain amount of scientific reductionism, his work overall is perhaps the most interesting contemporary attempt to understand poetry as a universal human endeavor. I'm with Joseph Tate here, neurobiology does have some vital things to say about "what poetry is for." Turner's stance, at its heart is quite simple (see his book Natural Classicism for its most straight-forward elucidation): the roots of literature are in ritual performance and that, in turn, is rooted in our biological, evolutionary inheritance. Turner (incidentally, the son of the anthropologist Victor Turner) is the leading light of the New Formalist movement, with their evil agenda--defending narrative, rhyme and meter--and his poetic work, I think, will not appeal to many on this list, but I think it unwise to cursorily dismiss his writing. Turner is dealing with some vital and elementary questions in some surprisingly synthetic ways and, agree or disagree, some familiarity with his work is bound to deepen one's attempts to place the poetic impulse within the larger human endeavor. While I don't necessarily agree with Turner on his conclusions that current research justifies the type of closed structure he advocates, I have found his work, at the very least, a healthful corrective to some of the deadening and dysfunctional theory that currently bogs down contemporary work. Best, Tim Cloward Graduate Student University of Texas at Dallas ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 12:22:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Merwin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Douglas Barbour was correct in stating that _Finding the Islands_ was a formal move for Merwin, but I only brought him up in the first place to celebrate some of his less-formal ventures. In _The Carrier of Ladders_ two poems in particular come to mind: "Little Horse", and "When You Go Away", which are both fine examples of an individual being in touch with emotion without it being so flowery or formal as to be boring. My main complaint with "contemporary" poetry these days is it can be very detached, especially when dealing with matters of human emotion. Although Merwin could indeed be seen as guilty of playing on the same theme from time to time, it is a theme he has (in my humble opinion) mastered.... and if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I also feel (as I stated in an earlier post) that C.D. Wright is another fine poet whose work goes too often unnoticed or unmentioned on this list. I read lots of posts about Robert Creeley (whom I admire greatly), but there are other greats besides him. I can't just return to him and say, "Well, obviously everything this man says is a pearl, so this is who I am going to give my focus to". My idea of poetry is not that narrow. I would really like to see this list encompass a broader range of poets and their work to discuss. We owe that to ourselves and to people who turn to this fine list as a source for keeping up with what is going on in poetry these days. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 09:54:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Ludwig von Glass In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Natch to context. Try Boulez or, for quartets, Carter. And the first half of this century is incredibly rich in string quartets--better known than those since because they've had time to enter the repertory. Schoenberg, Webern, Volpe, Ives, Sibelius, Bartok, Debussy, Ravel, Shostakovich, to name a few of several different persuasions in no particular order. A listen in order to all the Bartok quartets or all the Carters after the first is a rewarding, exhausting experience. I probably meant Alex Katz. (Alley Cats?) Here's a thought: Because the language of music has changed so much across time I probably need something more by way of preparation to listen to, say, the opus 111 sonata or the Art of the Fugue than just my availability. That given, I'd usually like to hear them in as deep a solitude as possible, which recordings makes possible. Hearing the lines of dialogue between different compositions is one way to listen (like hearing the echoes in Pound?), but the work also exists as a dialogue between me as listener and the achieved thought of the maker, and that's also a good way to listen. Fortunately, one doesn't have to choose. At 09:16 AM 11/7/97 -0700, you wrote: >mark weiss said: > >probably better art than glass. There. I've waved a red flag.> > >And I'd say yes you have. I am not a great fan of Glass, preferring Adams, >Bryars, Nyman, Riech, Tower, for example. But Cats? Jeez, it was bad >enough, & everything since even worse. Come on, Mark, someone who >appreciates the late Beethoven quartets can do better than this... > >But I rather like hearing them in the context of contemporary quartets as >mucyh as hearing those recent works in the context of B's amazing work, >just as I find it interesting to view some late Degas as contextualized by >Rothko. There are lines of flight & connection between the great moments of >art...hmm? > >=========================================================================== === >Douglas Barbour >Department of English >University of Alberta >Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 >(403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 >H: 436 3320 >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >That which we took so much for granted >--Holy poetry of water and of fire-- >Is suddenly debatable. > Gwendolyn MacEwen > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:00:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I myself have often danced around a fire with the other members of my tribe reciting Pope's Epistle to Arbuthnot during puberty rites. At 09:17 AM 11/7/97 -0600, you wrote: >To simply reject Frederick Turner's work as stupid is to dismiss some of >the most important thinking being done today concerning the place of >poetry in the world. While I agree that in the essay "The Neural Lyre" >Turner can justifiably be accused of a certain amount of scientific >reductionism, his work overall is perhaps the most interesting >contemporary attempt to understand poetry as a universal human endeavor. >I'm with Joseph Tate here, neurobiology does have some vital things to say >about "what poetry is for." Turner's stance, at its heart is quite simple >(see his book Natural Classicism for its most straight-forward >elucidation): the roots of literature are in ritual performance and that, >in turn, is rooted in our biological, evolutionary inheritance. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:18:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: MacProse Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To anybody interested in program that generates sentences or fragments, you may want to download this program at Charles Hartman's home page: Virtual Muse: Experiments in Computer Poetry, Wesleyan University Press/University Press of New England (1996), has an attachment here: a downloadable Macintosh version of the PROSE program described in the book: download MacProse. His URL is: http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/cohar/ It's fun and it's free! cheers, Steven __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 10:12:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Merwin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Douglas Barbour about _Finding the Islands_. I also suspect there are formal possibilities there still untapped, a kind of sliding scale of consciousness, as in Riley's "In C", but gentler, less ecstatic. I still read books like _The Carrier of Ladders_ and _Writings to an Unfinished Accompaniment_ for the carved interaction between title and poem. The later books of poems and that prose book on Provence I wish I hadn't bought and which I never finished, though, are flat for me. I read _The Vixen_ a while back. The whole time, I found I was not reading the poems Merwin had set down, but different possibilities for the poems, reading completely against his lineation and rhythms, which seem horribly botched, as if he had just started the poems and then quit, forgetting to make any kind of shape or terseness. Curiously, I still can't make myself read them as he set them down. Something could be made out of that stuff. Maybe with a knife and a pot of glue. Someone else said that Frost was a second-rate versifier, too. That's a little harsh, isn't it? My take is that he wrote about nine solid poems. As for the rest of them, well, there are very few poets who've written more good ones than that. There are only a half dozen Brecht pieces that seem worth returning to. Same for Merwin, perhaps. Let's not beat the guy up too much for that. This gets back to something I harped upon a while back: the need for a new assessment of twentieth century literature. What we have at the moment is a canon consisting of poems and movements defined as they arose. Exciting, sure, but now that we have a little distance we should be able to do a little cross-border shopping, placing things in larger perspectives, stuffing _Finding the Islands_ in with Pound's ballads, for instance, just to see if they can get along for an afternoon coffee. Probably have to carry passports and pay some kind of duty, though. Rough. Probably wind up drinking tea out of tuna tins behind the piano. Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:16:13 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Ho In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Nov 1997 11:06:00 -0500 from Maybe the reason some poets & critics turn to science in thinking about poetry is that it's a way to finesse the raw/cooked or wild/cultured dichotomies. As usual, I'm thinking of Mandelstam & his fascination with biology, mineralogy, & mathematics (which goes for Celan, for another). M's use of biological vocabulary to describe the metamorphoses of imagery in Dante, for example; or his poem about Lamarck the evolutionist in scientific/Dantesque combination. What scientific frameworks does is create a space in which the genuine novelty of the "wild" [i.e., as Mandelstam wrote somewhere, "Poetry is language in a state infinitely more raw than prose or everyday speech"] can be "boxed" in a highly refined intellectual-cultural framework (science) - and at the same time, science in turn is "framed" by the wildness of poetry. Another major motive for Mandelstam here was his connection with romanticism & 19th-century Russian poetry. His friendship with professional naturalists was both an acmeist "kinship with the earth" & earthly things and also a sphere of personal & intellectual freedom (relatively speaking) from ideology. That's my Mandelstam lecture for this week. Science (pace Sokal-haters) like music is a stab at a universal language. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:57:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JforJames Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Frost Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 97-11-07 13:23:00 EST, you write: >Someone else said that Frost was a second-rate versifier, too. That's a >little harsh, isn't it? Yes, even if one has diverged from road taken by Frost in American poetry, one would have to give him his due as a first-rate versifier--or better said, highly-accomplished within formal constraints. Also, as Randall Jarrell ably pointed out in his essay "The other Frost," there is a very different poet behind poems like Directive, Neither Out Far Nor In Deep, An Old Man's Winter Night, etc --different from The Road Not Taken, (a swinger of) Birches, etc. To quote Jarrell, "These views of Frost come either from not knowing the poems well enough or knowing the wrong poems too well." Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 13:55:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tim, read my post: I didn't dismiss all of Turner's work as stupid; I only dismissed "The Neural Lyre," called his epic poems "repulsive" to my taste, and complimented his understanding of chaos theory. Nor do I mind defenses of rhyme and meter, although I do object to dismissals of unmetered forms as NOT POETRY (as Turner essentially did in a footnote to "Neural Lyre"). And as I said, I don't dismiss a neurobiological framework by any means. I'm in agreement with Patrick Pritchett's view that to say poetry is "for" something is deeply problematic. However, I wouldn't call it utilitarian; I'd call it adaptationist, or, to use Stephen J. Gould's phrase, a variant of "Darwinian fundamentalism." Tim, your description of Turner's project seems to align Turner with evolutionary psychology, a speculative collection of 'just-so' stories exemplified by the likes of Steven Pinker, who was throttled by Gould in a recent exchange in the New York Review of Books. Explanations of poetry in evolutionary terms, in addition to being likely composed of fantasy and confabulation, can tell us nothing about contemporary possibilities even if they're completely accurate. And they certainly cannot prescribe what is good or bad in current poetry, since the conditions under which poetry is presently composed have little to do with the ritual performances of furry forbears. On another note, somebody else on this thread plugged Amittai Aviram's work: I would also recommend it. _Telling Rhythm_ is a different kind of account, one that defends the universality of rhythmic structures in different (primarily Nietzschean) terms. Cheers, David -----Original Message----- From: cloward@UTDALLAS.EDU To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 10:55 AM Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope >To simply reject Frederick Turner's work as stupid is to dismiss some of >the most important thinking being done today concerning the place of >poetry in the world. While I agree that in the essay "The Neural Lyre" >Turner can justifiably be accused of a certain amount of scientific >reductionism, his work overall is perhaps the most interesting >contemporary attempt to understand poetry as a universal human endeavor. >I'm with Joseph Tate here, neurobiology does have some vital things to say >about "what poetry is for." Turner's stance, at its heart is quite simple >(see his book Natural Classicism for its most straight-forward >elucidation): the roots of literature are in ritual performance and that, >in turn, is rooted in our biological, evolutionary inheritance. > Turner (incidentally, the son of the anthropologist Victor Turner) >is the leading light of the New Formalist movement, with their evil >agenda--defending narrative, rhyme and meter--and his poetic work, I >think, will not appeal to many on this list, but I think it unwise to >cursorily dismiss his writing. Turner is dealing with some vital and >elementary questions in some surprisingly synthetic ways and, agree or >disagree, some familiarity with his work is bound to deepen one's attempts >to place the poetic impulse within the larger human endeavor. While I >don't necessarily agree with Turner on his conclusions that current >research justifies the type of closed structure he advocates, I have found >his work, at the very least, a healthful corrective to some of the >deadening and dysfunctional theory that currently bogs down contemporary >work. > >Best, >Tim Cloward > >Graduate Student >University of Texas at Dallas > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:19:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: audiopoesis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >A few other sources for audio Brazen Oralities: http://www.infobahnos.com/~brazen/ is a newsletter w/ origins in a radio show, i believe that specializes in micropress spoken word. the print version (2 issues that i know ov) have more complete info than th website; overall an excellent source fr the fugitive & sub-terrain. Larry Wendt's "Narrative as Genealogy: Sound Sense in an Era of Hypertext"; in a back issue of Switch: http://cadre.sjsu.edu/switch/sound/articles/wendt/nghome.htm has a useful discography: http://cadre.sjsu.edu/switch/sound/articles/wendt/folder5/ng512.htm Underwich Audiographics series carried some of the best sound- poetry frm Canada; may be available frm damian lopes at Afterwords: http://www.interlog.com/~dal/after/index.html mineown _TapRoot Reviews_ has covered a number of audio releases, w/ features in issues #4, #7/8, and #9/10. backchannel fr info. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:02:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Merwin In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971107122243.0069ac4c@postoffice.brown.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Asked and answered -- if there's something you want "this list" to talk about, you talk about it. Proceed, counsel. Signed, Right Honorable Bumfuck Toothdecay On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Brent Long wrote: > going to give my focus to". My idea of poetry is not that narrow. I would > really like to see this list encompass a broader range of poets and their > work to discuss. We owe that to ourselves and to people who turn to this > fine list as a source for keeping up with what is going on in poetry these > days. > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:26:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 97-11-07 02:45:50 EST, you write: >Yet, while I agree with you, I seem to have found few others who even try >to join the discussion of poetic meter and psychobiology at all. I remember about 10 years ago Peter Viereck, in an piece published in Poets & Writers (maybe CODA then), posited that iambic (and trochaic) meters were often employed by poets because they were "in sync" with such biological rhythms as the heart’s systole/diastole, breathing, human locomotion and copulation. (The subtext of the essay was that regular meter was inherently good because it was natural.) I didn't think much of his argument since even a casual investigation of the world’s poetries would show many, many different patterns prevailing in other countries/cultures outside of the English-speaking world’s dominant ta-tum, ta-tum, ta-tum…Yet, humans, wherever they might live on this earth, are quite similar physiologically. Meter, it seems, must be enculturated or language-bound, and not a matter of biology—nurture, not nature. Finnegan (Not a Biology Major) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:23:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chauncy Dicey Subject: Re: Merwin In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:02:23 -0500 from On Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:02:23 -0500 Jordan Davis said: >Asked and answered -- if there's something you want "this list" to talk >about, you talk about it. Proceed, counsel. > >Signed, >Right Honorable Bumfuck Toothdecay I say Bummy, old boy, I never kniew that was how you spelled the ultimate cognomen - any chance you're related to the Toothdecays over on Spivey-By-the-Spam? The Wrewnchy-Toothdeckies? Or is it Runcie? Biffun' good lot of em up that way, I'll say. Must be 300 Uncle Buckies! All horsey as can! - Chauncy Dicey oh blither it, I should've backchunneled - tods it then. I'll buy you all a dry oonch, what? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 20:45:24 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Writers Forum publications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writers Forum have published 2 folders FUMING by Bob Cobbing and Lawrence Upton - 12 polychrome text _total_ collaborations, spin off from / related to Domestic Ambient Noise, edition of 10 copies + THE COLOUR OF SOUND - THE SOUND OF COLOUR by Bob Cobbing - 12 polychrome texts, edition of 12 each L45 forty five pounds plus L5 p & p i am sorry I did say forty five pounds from Writers Forum cheques payable to New River Project - contact WF if you cannot pay sterling cheques Writers Forum, 89a Petherton Rd, London N5 8QT, UK ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:52:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Contact info To: POETI --CMS Alan Golding Prof. of English, Univ. of Louisville 502-852-6801; acgold01@ulkyvm.louisville.edu Subject: Contact info Does anyone have the quickest way to contact--by e- or snail mail--Robin Blaser, Robert Creeley, and Joanne Kyger? I know I can write Robin and Bob c/o their departments, but thought some of the respective locals might know if they're actually around or not. (I know RC's been on the West coast recently.) Joanne I don't have any kind of address for--still in Bolinas? Anyway, I need to write them regarding some copyright permissions pronto. Backchannel please? And thanks for your help. Alan G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 16:20:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Speaking American In-Reply-To: George Bowering "Speaking American" (Nov 6, 6:05pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Perhaps I have missed the point implicit in the first post in this thread, but I'd say that the author of this piece (Michael Quilty) is a card carrying member of the explorers club who has taken to some old fashioned rural American and Christian bashing. (I'm glad you find those peculiar creatures so tarty and crunchy!) I will wait for the next National Geographic where we can expect to see Michael Quilty like a Jane Goodall afield in the Ozarks in his kahaki and pith helmut taking notes on barnyard mating habits and woodsy puberty rites. I don't have to subscribe to a revisionist, maudlin Burnsian view of Americana to find this piece with its presumptuous style putrid. I realize that many have arrived here only to find that this country can be a cruel and injust place, a big joke. But I can't see how Mr.Quilty's harrowing experiences in Arkansas qualify him for pity. He's just trashing a place (and hell, he still lives there). Someone elses home and lifestyle. An easy assumption or expectation of universal agreement (at least in cosmopolitan company) permeates this cheap shot. I mean, why not look for an easier target to take out! It is indeed sad that these youngins aren't yet up to their Christian apologetics. At least Mark Weiss intelligently points up to the lack somewhat with his reply. William Burmeister >Here's a couple of stories from two classes that I taught in Tucson. Call >them extensions of and partial correctives to your data. >I arrived in Tucson on the eve of the Gulf War. In all that patriotic >frenzy I decided to ask my Freshman Comp students to write about the crisis >from Saddam Hussein's point of view. None of them would do it--they thought >that even entertaining the fantasy was unpatriotic. Half of them >transferred out of my class, which wasn't such a bad thing--it actually >made it possible for me to teach the remnant. >Of those left about a third were hispanic, and all professed to be >Christians. Before Easter I suggested that some of them might like to go to >Old Pascua, a tiny Yaqui reservation surrounded by Tucson, to see the >half-pagan ceremonies, at which point my brightest student raised his hand >and asked, "Mark, what's Easter about?" >When I was able to get my mouth working again I determined that he wasn't >putting me on, and I asked the class which of them knew that Easter was a >celebration of the crucifiction and resurrection of Christ. Only the >hispanic kids raised their hands. In the ensuing discussion I learned that >for the other kids Easter had always been a secular holiday for Christian >children, involving bunnies and chocolate. >During my second year in Tucson I taught an American lit course. I had the >kids read a rather floridly Calvinist captivity narrative. What they found >most exotic about it was the brand of Christianity. To a man or woman they >professed membership in radical Protestant sects, but they didn't recognize >the protagonist as a coreligionist. They all believed in god, virgin birth, >baby Jesus and heaven, but they didn't believe in hell and had never heard >of original sin. >This same group, when I polled them when we were reading Fear and Loathing >in Las Vegas (it was an interesting, not to say eccentric, syllabus), >admitted, with two exceptions, to smoking pot, and with three exceptions, >to snorting coke. >So maybe the defensiveness about their religion, and the bigotry, remain, >but not much else. Those kids who carried their bibles nonetheless had to >check before answering even the simplest questions, after all. And maybe >all those surveys that purport to tell us that Americans are the most >religious people on earth, greatly comforting the Christian Coalition, ask >the wrong questions. Apparently it's the Disney version, not the King >James, that the kids and their elders are reading. >Is that a hopeful thought? > Subject: Speaking American > >Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 14:15:18 -0600 (CST) > >From: Michael Quilty > >X-Sender: mquilty@comp > > >Speaking American > > > > > >Sometimes you forget that you're in an Alien land in which you can never > >expect to be comfortable. Then, fortunately, you're reminded. > > > >It was in the last half-decade of the twentieth centuy that I arrived in > >that odd country called 'The United States'. When I lived in Canada I > >confessed to one day wanting to visit four American cities--Boston, New > >York, San Francisco, and New Orleans. I ended up in a paint fleck of a > >town called Fayetteville, Arkansas, a fleck whose main significance at the > >time was that it was where former President Bill Clinton and his wife > >Hilary bought their first house. > > > >That first year was largely one of observation, since [though I had met > >Americans before] I had never been in such close proximity to so many of > >these peculiar creatures at once. As I was an Anglophone Canadian [a > >species of North American prone to identity crises], the observation was > >punctuated by long spells of morose introspection, with which I will not > >burden you. I was able to protect myself from the full force of America > >that first year because, by happy accident, I ended up in a dorm that was > >peopled mostly by foreign students. I was thus able to bond with a > >community which saw the natives to be as unusual as I did. > > > >It was around the beginning of my second year there that I realised that, > >backwater that it is, Arkansas was a microcosm of all that was happening > >in the United States at the time. I was able to reach this conclusion > >because, starting in the second year, my expereince with the people of the > >Arkansas was intensified, and diffracted, through the lens of the > >classroom. I was associated with one of the departments of the University > >of Arkansas, a department which believed that its graduate students should > >work as qualified professors while being paid as if they were teaching > >assistants, which was my official title. > > > >My last stop in the academic transhumance of 'teaching assistantship' was > >on the West coast of Canada, in Vancouver, and it was there that I had had > >my most recent classroom experiences. On the surface the students seemed > >not so different from the kids I had encountered in Vancouver--innocent > >types, tarty types, crunchy types, jocks, well-educated and intelligent > >Europeans (both young women as it happens), a mature student who knew more > >about the subject than I did, but who refrained from speaking up in class > >for fear of dominating it, a smattering of American imports, and the odd > >hard-working intelligent local young person. Odd, I must stress odd. > > > >Sometimes, though, there are strong currents running 'neath the surface of > >the seemingly most stagnant of pools. By about the mid-point of the > >semester I was dragging my increasingly bored charges through the late > >Roman Empire and interregnum. Time, then, for Christianity to rear its > >ugly head as a topic of discussion. I remember now receiving warnings > >about how dangerous this would be from a former colleague of mine [she had > >since fled the sinking ship of the King Fahd Centre for UCLA] but in that > >hectic semester the warnings had obviously remained neglected under some > >pile of papers or dirty laundry somewhere. > > > >My students weren't doing particularly well on my weekly quizzes, designed > >to allow them to show me that they'd read and understood the textbook > >[which was pitched, I believe, to a tenth-grade reading level]. But, I > >reasoned, History is really about sources and biases, so I allowed them to > >make up extra credit by eye-balling one of the documents in the textbook > >and putting it in the context of that week's chronology [I laughingly > >refered to this exercise in summary as 'primary source analysis']. They > >hadn't been doing very well with these either, which led me to believe > >that tenth grade is no longer what it used to be, or perhaps no longer > >what it used to be in the United States. > > > >When Christianity reared itself up out of the frothy waters of the Roman > >Imperial period, there was a sudden overwhelming demand from students to > >prepare an analysis of a particular document--a snippit from the Sermon on > >the Mount. The students who won the lottery were, both of them, > >soft-spoken and not terribly bright older women. When the time came for > >them to present their 'analyses' they [independently] gave me the least > >historical treatment of a document that I have ever seen. The problem > >didn't rest with the presenters' intellectual short-comings, but > >in the rest of the class. Though willing to pour their scepticism over > >the documents dealing with the [up to that point pagan] political figures > >in the text, this scepticism was now replaced by vacuous smiles, > >head-nodding, and (to my dismay) scramblings to THEIR BIBLES to answer a > >question I asked about whether or not the evangelist Matthew was one of > >the Apostles. > > > >Around the centre of the classroom there were a clot of two or three guys, > >all sharing a bible. When they came to the passage that they were looking > >for [a confirmation (I assume) that Matthew was, in fact, one of the > >apostles] they all made made fists with their right hands and punched the > >air in celebration. It was much the same gesture that I have seen on the > >part of men watching baseball on television. After an ad-long debate on > >some fine statistical point or other [number of errors or Rs-B-I on the > >part of a particular player, etc.], the colour commentator returns to > >verify the claims of one beer-drinking statistician or the other. Thence > >the air-punching. > > > >'My god,' I said to one of my skater-boys, a pair of silver lame glasses > >adorning his bleached hair, 'you're packin' a Bible?' > > > >'Of course,' he smiled. > > > >Turns out most of them were carrying Bibles. And most of them worked very > >hard to turn the rest of the period into a revivalist 'Let us declare our > >faith unto HIM' session. My increasingly frazzled [I'd been up since two > >in the morning working on a presentation] efforts to coax them back to an > >'analytical' frame of mind were met by stares of incomprehension. Clearly > >Christianity was not an appropriate subject for historical analysis. > > > >This should not have surprised me, since Arkansas is an integral part of > >the post-consumerist paunch fettered beneath the Bible Belt. But I was > >surprised, and deceived, by the apparent normalcy of my students. The > >following week when I attempted to discuss the role of syncretism in the > >rise of Chistianity in the West--the way the early Christians placed > >certain feasts on the same days as older pagan festivals as a way of > >improving sales in those communities--the vacuous smiles turned to > >brow-furrowed hostility. > > > >'You mean to tell me,' demanded one young fellow who insisted upon > >calling himself a History major, 'that all our feast days are MAN-MADE?' > > > >I blinked back at him, wondering what he could be asking. > > > >'Of course they're man-made. Who else do you think made them?' > > > >More disturbing to me was the students' readiness to resume their cynicism > >about the material as soon as the early Christianity of the martyrs became > >'Catholic Christianity,' since Catholicism is 'Worldly Anti-Christianity', > >the Whore of Babylon, and all that. It is not so much their intimate > >association with the early Christian church that bothers me--that's what > >Protestantism is all about, isn't it. It is their self-separation from > >the long continuity of History [and for that matter Christianity after the > >consolidation of the Roman church] that is so worrisome. It is as if > >these people are reacting against the worldly excesses of late imperial > >America by removing themselves from the world, just like the Hellenistic > >philosophies and religions--the early Epicurians and Mystery > >Religions--tried to do. 'Epicurians.' 'Mystery religions.' Subjects > >described in this textbook that my students swear they read but which they > >do not understand. > > > >These the citizens of the mightiest military-and-democratic power in the > >world. > > > > > > > George Bowering. > , > 2499 West 37th Ave., > Vancouver, B.C., > Canada V6M 1P4 > > fax: 1-604-266-9000 >-- End of excerpt from George Bowering ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:22:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: MacProse In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I have a program that generates meaningful silence. It has no URL, but hey, you save the phone call. At 01:18 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >To anybody interested in program that generates sentences or fragments, >you may want to download this program at Charles Hartman's home page: > >Virtual Muse: Experiments in Computer Poetry, Wesleyan University >Press/University Press of New England (1996), has an >attachment here: a downloadable Macintosh version of the PROSE program >described in the book: download MacProse. > >His URL is: http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/cohar/ > >It's fun and it's free! > >cheers, >Steven > >__________________________________________________ > Steven Marks > > http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html >__________________________________________________ > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 14:44:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is urgent. Does anybody have a fix on where to reach Rae Armantrout today in San Francisco? Please backchannel. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:06:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: <971107152616_243504146@mrin85.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What you remember as a subtext was, in fact, quite explicit, and is, on the face of it, as you point out, absurd. It also misunderstands formal English metrics, which is stress-, not quantity-, based, so that all iambs are not created equal. The febrile poet is perhaps the fibrillating poet. We can infer other things about Mr. Viereck: he never skips, and he's not very imaginative in bed.=20 Is this true of all neo-formalists? Iamb, therefore iamb. At 03:26 PM 11/7/97 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 97-11-07 02:45:50 EST, you write: > >>Yet, while I agree with you, I seem to have found few others who even try >>to join the discussion of poetic meter and psychobiology at all. > >I remember about 10 years ago Peter Viereck, in an piece published >in Poets & Writers (maybe CODA then), posited that iambic (and >trochaic) meters were often employed by poets because they were >"in sync" with such biological rhythms as the heart=92s systole/diastole, >breathing, human locomotion and copulation. (The subtext of the essay >was that regular meter was inherently good because it was natural.) >I didn't think much of his argument since even a casual investigation >of the world=92s poetries would show many, many different patterns >prevailing in other countries/cultures outside of the English-speaking >world=92s dominant ta-tum, ta-tum, ta-tum=85Yet, humans, wherever >they might live on this earth, are quite similar physiologically. >Meter, it seems, must be enculturated or language-bound, and not >a matter of biology=97nurture, not nature. > >Finnegan (Not a Biology Major) > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 15:14:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: EP, poet, raw and cooked MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Gould wrote: Maybe the reason some poets & critics turn to science in thinking about poetry is that it's a way to finesse the raw/cooked or wild/cultured dichotomies. I like that. It made me think, tho': wot about dear ol' uncle Ez, who came up with his Thee or re. that mythology came about as an attempt to explain experiences in scientific terms. Not a lot of finesse there. Give me Celan over that any day. Geez, wot if sigh ants is a sub dis zeppelin of poet, re.? Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 17:55:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Ho Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, people respond to rhythm and probably there is a biological basis for this. However, this is irrelevant to the assertion that one type of rhythym is preferrable in any sense, whether that preference is based scientifically or aesthetically. Aviram's argument is more sophisticated, as someone else pointed out. tom bell At 11:06 AM 11/7/97 -0500, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >Interesting post, Tim. I'm by no means convinced however that poetry is >_for_ anything, as you put it. For as soon as it's for something, it's also >not for something else. In a word, this description smacks of the >utilitarian. As Stephen Rodefer put it (quoted from Mark Prejsnar's latest >ish of Misc. Proj) "It's not the business of poetry to be anything." > >I haven't read "The Neural Lyre," but from your account Turner appears to be >falling into the old nostalgia of the arts to locate its roots in the >empirical. I don't why people still fall prey to this anxiety - this desire >to locate roots as though the biological of itself can confer legitimacy, >can alleviate the angst which poetry suffers whenever it compares itself to >the sciences. Isn't it enough to say that poetry is a cultural product? That >whatever dim primeval impulse first stimulated its rudimentary expressions >that by now - several millennia later - poetry is a cultural construction >and requires no further justification than that? As if it needed any in the >first place. > >Patrick Pritchett > ---------- >From: cloward >To: POETICS >Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope >Date: Friday, November 07, 1997 9:51AM > > >To simply reject Frederick Turner's work as stupid is to dismiss some of >the most important thinking being done today concerning the place of >poetry in the world. While I agree that in the essay "The Neural Lyre" >Turner can justifiably be accused of a certain amount of scientific >reductionism, his work overall is perhaps the most interesting >contemporary attempt to understand poetry as a universal human endeavor. >I'm with Joseph Tate here, neurobiology does have some vital things to say >about "what poetry is for." Turner's stance, at its heart is quite simple >(see his book Natural Classicism for its most straight-forward >elucidation): the roots of literature are in ritual performance and that, >in turn, is rooted in our biological, evolutionary inheritance. > Turner (incidentally, the son of the anthropologist Victor Turner) >is the leading light of the New Formalist movement, with their evil >agenda--defending narrative, rhyme and meter--and his poetic work, I >think, will not appeal to many on this list, but I think it unwise to >cursorily dismiss his writing. Turner is dealing with some vital and >elementary questions in some surprisingly synthetic ways and, agree or >disagree, some familiarity with his work is bound to deepen one's attempts >to place the poetic impulse within the larger human endeavor. While I >don't necessarily agree with Turner on his conclusions that current >research justifies the type of closed structure he advocates, I have found >his work, at the very least, a healthful corrective to some of the >deadening and dysfunctional theory that currently bogs down contemporary >work. > >Best, >Tim Cloward > >Graduate Student >University of Texas at Dallas > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 19:44:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Stephen Cope Subject: Re: audiopoesis Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Archive for New Poetry at UCSD has numerous cassettes, although I'd have to check regarding sales, availability, etc. Let me know backchannel if you're interested... Stephen Cope >A few other sources for audio (and video) > >The Annenberg/CPB Project >(800) 532-7637 >(They did Voices & Visions) > >HarperCollins (Caedmon) >(800) 331-3761 >(This is an old source, not so contemporary.) > >Ladyslipper >(919) 683-1570 >(800) 634-6044 >(Specializes in women. Catalogue lists tapes from various producers.) > >Not sure if this is still current. It is an old listing from the Poetry >Center catslogue. > >There is a list of other audio and video sources at the back of the Poetry >Center Catalogue published in 1990. > >Pacifica Foundation >(818) 506-1077 >(KPFA, KPFK, WBAI etc) I'm not sure they are still around to sell tapes. > >Poet's House > >(212) 627-4035 > >Were going to sell the tapes of 92nd St Y and Academy readings as of 1990 >- > >The Roland Collection (British) > >(708) 291-9443 (US #) > >011-44-79721421 > >Video - very large collection of weel-known writers > > >Watershed has been mentioned >(202) 722-9105 > > >I find that doing a Hotbot or other search can result in finding new >sources >Of course the Poetry Center at SFSU has a large collection - for anyone >new to the list. > >http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit > > > >Laura Moriarty ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Nov 1997 23:59:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: C.D. Wright/Other poets for discussion Brent, I just met C.D. at Bread Loaf in August. Fascinating woman; handled some interesting political challenges with great acumen, gave a fascinating reading and quirky but brilliant lecture, and was very accessible, too. Volunteered to give me a half hour conference, in spite of having a regular load of students to handle. Anyway, I think your point about the contrast between "Tremble" and earlier books in regard to C.D.'s attention to "craft and cadence" (if I remember your phrase correctly) is worthy of further research! I haven't yet read her work, but will, with an eye toward looking at her evolution. I'll be back tomorrow night with some comments. Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:03:59 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michel Delville Subject: French poets born after 1950 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Try Pierre Alferi, Michelle Grandgaud, Alain Veinstein and Olivier Cadiot. I'm not sure Danielle Collobert qualifies since she was born in 1940 (died in the late 1970s, I think), but you might want to check her out anyway. Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kevin Varrone Subject: addresses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII anyone have a current email address for Steve McCaffery? and Lisa Jarnot? please backchannel. thanks, kevin v ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 10:41:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Speaking American In-Reply-To: <9711071620.ZM16597@plhp517.comm.mot.com> from "William Burmeister Prod" at Nov 7, 97 04:20:47 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "And maybe >all those surveys that purport to tell us that Americans are the most >religious people on earth, greatly comforting the Christian Coalition, ask >the wrong questions. Apparently it's the Disney version, not the King >James, that the kids and their elders are reading." This is picked up from the strain on "American-ness" and I can't quite figure out who wrote it but I'm in total agreement. The idea that Americans are the most religious people in the world (you hear it on the nightly news at least weekly in one form or another) is just plain stupid. For the huge majority of Americans, including - and perhaps *especially* - the "very religious" ones, religion is like the key chain that you can get "personalized" at the mall by having your name engraved on it. And, as far as I'm concerned, that's a damn good thing. So much easier to debunk rigid collective belief systems, which are always dangerous as such. If this means we have to encounter a lot of dopes saying "Jesus loves me, this I know, 'cause the Bible tells me so," so be it. I can live with that. In fact th basic stance that religion is finally absurdly personal, has a long and serious intellectual history - it's the history of Puritan non-conformists like Ann Hutchinson who used the Covenant of Grace to call into question the communities right to dictate her behavior. This is the same history which leads William James to write the brilliant *Varieties of Religious Experience* (emphasis squarely on variety). So, as I said, if this means you have to teach a few adolescent knuckleheads in Arkansas well, hey, that's the breaks. Is there *any* teacher on this list who doesn't have to teach knuckleheads. Penn, where I'm teaching Freshman at the moment, is full of 'em. I feel like part of my job is to destablize whatever belief system(s) they happen to bring to the table and I don't mind doing it. In fact, most of the time its fairly easy, what with those systems being houses of cards. When the beliefs are more firmly held and more thought out, so much the better - then you're into a discussion with some intellectual teeth. -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:49:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Merwin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ah Merwin. Poet Barbour wrote, > Generally, I'd have to side with Patrick Pritchett on this one, > although I do like a lot of his translations. But I went after a lot > of the early poetry, read it, & then put it away. In regard to > Creeley, whose work I return to all the time, I just am not called > back to the Merwin. Except for one book, published outside his usual > venues, by the late lamented North Point, _Finding the Islands_, > which was something of a formal move for him as well. Not 'great' > but certainly of interest to this reader... *Finding the Islands* was my door into Merwin's work -- after acquainting his name from his renderings of Ghalib (in *Ghazals of Ghalib*, which also included versions by Rich, Stafford & others). Regrettably, Merwin himself has seemingly somewhat disowned the book -- evidently as it was from a phase of love-life that he wants to put behind him (new woman, new esthetic, so to say) -- he didn't include any of the *Islands* poems in his Selected poetry, but I note that lately he has included some of that material in *Flower & Hand*. Anyway, here's the thing: Merwin's work at each phase has differed from prior phases -- there's been a gradual progression from decade to decade, and someone who acquainted his work only in one period would be discussing only one section of the broader picture. As for "the Merwin" or "the Creeley" -- certainly if the first phrase is meaningful, the 2nd may be equally so. I was WSM read at the Library of Congress a few weeks ago, first from material ranging through earlier years, and 2nd from new work yet to be published. I enjoyed all of it tremendously -- as I have every time I've heard this fine man read over the years. Sorry to see many have not found what I find there. c'est la vie To what extent is the response a response to the writing as such, & to what extent is it a reaction to the 'success story' phenomenon of a poet who happens to attract a lot of accolades? -- but I've not been reading Poetics thoroughly of late, and so have missed, I think, some of the Merwin commentary . . . will try to backtrack -- W.S. Merwin is my favorite poet, I dare say. What he seeks in the endeavor of writing is not necessarily different from what others may seek -- but his manner of approach, and how far it's managed to go with it, are, for me, in some respects singular. I don't know that this is a vew I could cogently defend (at least not today), but it's nonetheless a response that might interest (if not to say surprise) some here. best, d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 11:55:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Merwin, p.s. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT erratum for: > I was WSM read at the Library of Congress read: > I saw WSM . . . and for god, read dog for had, read dah for who? read ?ohw In his book *Travels* -- from a few years ago, Merwin took a major turn, -- a narrative turn, the poems being almost entirely concerned with historical figures. But his latest work (from which he read at the LOC -- to be published next year) is a single book-length poem based on Hawaiian figures from, I think, the 19th century. The passages he read were very fine. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 12:46:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Hart Subject: Re: Speaking American In-Reply-To: <199711081541.KAA61202@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Michael Magee" at Nov 8, 97 10:41:28 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello all: I'm going to announce myself on the list (stepping out from lurker-land) by arguing with Mike, which is a safe thing to do, given that I can throw bottles at his windows from here. Actually, I'm in general agreement with Mike's post, especially when he's talking about the classroom. But this extract below strikes me as needing some modulation: > This is picked up from the strain on "American-ness" and I can't quite > figure out who wrote it but I'm in total agreement. The idea that > Americans are the most religious people in the world (you hear it on the > nightly news at least weekly in one form or another) is just plain stupid. > For the huge majority of Americans, including - and perhaps *especially* - > the "very religious" ones, religion is like the key chain that you can get > "personalized" at the mall by having your name engraved on it. And, as From my British perspective, the statement "Americans are the most religious people in the world" may not seem absolutely true (ie, vs. Israel or Iran, or another theocracy) but it has a certain truth value that's sociologically important. What struck me the first time I lived in Philly was the number of young people I knew who, although they professed no real, evangelical belief, would attend major religious festivals or services, and were *extremely* loath to commit to any kind of atheism. Amongst university students in Britain, this kind of middle-class religiosity just doesn't occur. So what, though? Well, a couple of things. Firstly, these "key-chain" Christians (or whatever) aren't dolts, although we might want to see them as ideologically interpellated/disciplined/constructed (add your fave theoretical term here). Secondly, it seems to me that it's exactly the personalization of religion that goes on in the U.S. that allows it to survive here in the way it doesn't/hasn't/won't elsewhere. Mike's aside on the Puritan tradition seems key here, although I'd go more with Irving Howe's comments from _Politics and the Novel_ on American individualism and its relations to politics. Howe notes that this individualist strain provokes a paradox between America(n)'s ability to situate themselves on a micro-political level and their/its corresponding inability to utilise the macro-political field: "Personalizing everything, they could not quite do justice to the life of politics in its own right.... Personalizing everything, they could brilliantly observe how social and individual experience melt into one another so that the deformations of the one soon become the deformations the other." In a poetics context, the relevant comparison would seem to be between this religiosity and the spectre of Eng. Lit. departments whihc, despite their theoretical sophistication, resist writing practices (creative or critical) which enact this sophistication. But this is enough for now . . . Matt Hart ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:47:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Merwin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The Atlantic's poetry editor reflects on the career of W. S. Merwin, whose long association with the magazine spans great distances of geography and art by Peter Davison August 28, 1997 Over the past twenty-five years the poems of W. S. Merwin have appeared in The Atlantic Monthly's pages more frequently than those of any other poet. The editors have been deeply attracted to the vivid movement and activity of his poetry, which seem to flow up from an underground river that lies beneath mere speech, as though written in some pre-verbal language of which all later languages have proved to be a mere translation. Here's a sample from a 1970s poem called "The Dreamers": a man with his eyes shut swam upward through dark water and came to air it was the horizon he felt his way along it and it opened and let the sun out Merwin's work has followed his life. Born seventy years ago in Union City, New Jersey, he was raised first in a Presbyterian rectory looking across the Hudson toward the towers of New York and then later in Scranton, Pennsylvania. He graduated in 1947 from Princeton University, where he learned from John Berryman, and set out for Europe to encounter the Romance languages. During the early 1950s he lived as a translator of Latin, French, Spanish, and Portuguese on Majorca (where he tutored the children of the poet Robert Graves) and in Spain, Portugal, and England. He eventually settled in the south of France and headquartered there during most of the 1960s, though after a time he spent parts of nearly every year in New York. Later he wandered into Mexico for several years. Since 1975 he has resided in Hawaii, where he maintains a miniature forest of trees and plants of species that are threatened elsewhere in the world. Return to: • Atlantic Unbound's Poetry Pages • An Audible Anthology Discuss this article in the Arts & Literature forum of Post & Riposte. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ W. S. Merwin Recent poems from The Atlantic Monthly, with readings by the author recorded specially for Atlantic Unbound: Three French Poems: "Vehicles," "The Speed of Light," and "End of a Day" (September 1994) "Green Fields" (February 1995) Three Poems: "Another River," "Echoing Light," and "Remembering" (April 1997) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Merwin's early poetry was formal and medieval in its overtones, shaded by the influence of Robert Graves and of the medieval poetry Merwin was translating. He was awarded the Yale Series of Younger Poets Award in 1952 by W. H. Auden. In his fourth book, The Drunk in the Furnace (1960), he turned toward American themes, after spending two years in Boston, where he got to know Robert Lowell, Sylvia Plath, Ted Hughes, Adrienne Rich, Donald Hall, and other poets who were breaking out of the rhetoric of the 1950s. With The Moving Target (1963), The Lice (1967), and The Carrier of Ladders (which won him the Pulitzer Prize in 1970), he began exploring the hazy and animate forms of poetry for which he is famous. Merwin's poems from here on tend to escape from punctuation; they search beneath the surfaces of incident and feeling to the depths of our understanding, a territory of comprehension that anticipates language, that catches perception at the point where it has not yet wholly located words, encountering thought and feeling as they hesitate in the process of formation. In The Carrier of Ladders, for example, the character of a ladder is taken to reside not only in its rails and rungs but in the spaces between them, and the poet carrying it takes responsibility for all the dimensions of a ladder, not only for its character as a climbing contraption. Merwin's recent poetry, to borrow the words of Robert Frost, may be thought of as "the tribute of the current to the source." During the 1980s and 1990s Merwin has gradually allowed his mind and language (which in a poet are especially hard to separate) to range across the wide regions of his own reading and travelling, while also plumbing the feelings and reasonings that arise from his deeply held beliefs. He is not only profoundly anti-imperialist, pacifist, and environmentalist, but also possessed by an intimate feeling for landscape and language and the ways in which land and language interflow. The Rain in the Trees (1988), Travels (1993), and The Vixen (1996) take the reader inside the implacable intentions of conquistadors, naturalists, and explorers, across the Pacific to the ravaged jungles of the Philippines, into the gentle tilt of a Pennsylvania pasture, to the flicker of health in a New York hospital or the business of a weasel in the wall of an old French farmhouse. Increasingly he has been arrested by an intensely sensuous involvement with place. His beautiful prose work, The Lost Upland (1992), and The Vixen are both book-length eulogies to the ancient farming country above the Dordogne River that Merwin left thirty years earlier -- written in Hawaii about France, a tremendous expedition through time and space to encounter the remnants of our medieval past. And listen to this recollection in another prose work, Unframed Originals (1982): The smell of barns drifted even through the market towns that were themselves not much larger than villages, and in the evenings cows swayed through the streets guided by peasants with the same long sticks. Pigs grunted behind arched cellar doors, and were butchered in back alleys, with groups of experts standing around, and the cobbles running blood. The farm dogs appeared to be a random mix, but many of them had one pale and one dark eye. They knew their jobs. They ate soup. The language on the farms was a patois descended from a Languedoc tongue older than the French of Tours and Paris. The intentions of Merwin's poetry are as broad as the biosphere yet as intimate as a whisper. He conveys in the sweet simplicity of grounded language a sense of the self where it belongs, floating between heaven, earth, and underground. The tone and directness of his intentions are clearly declared at the outset of Travels in a poem called "Cover Note": ...reader I do not know that anyone else is waiting for these words that I hoped might seem as though they had occurred to you and you would take them with you as your own It's that ingratiating tone that Merwin's poems take -- confiding, in the most private way, the most generous of concerns -- that has made him so welcome and frequent a visitor to The Atlantic Monthly's poetry pages. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Peter Davison is the poetry editor of The Atlantic Monthly. His books include the memoir The Fading Smile: Poets in Boston, 1955-1960 (1994) and The Poems of Peter Davison 1957-1995, recently published in paperback. Discuss this article in the Arts & Literature forum of Post & Riposte. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Copyright © 1997 by The Atlantic Monthly Company. All rights reserved. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 14:53:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: NYC readings/ZINC Bar (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 16:35:57 -0800 From: hkhfound To: poetics@acsu.buffalo.edu Subject: NYC readings/ZINC Bar Liking to pass on some information about upcoming readings at the ZINC Bar (90 West Houston St., NYC): Sunday, Nov. 9 - Mark DuCharme/John Arrizza Sunday, Nov. 16 - Peter Culley/Vole (the greatest rock 'n roll band....) Sunday, Nov. 23 - Maggie DuBris/Johnny Stanton Readings start at 6:30. $3 donation suggested. Yrs., Anselm Berrigan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 15:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Speaking American In-Reply-To: <199711081746.MAA35428@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Matthew Hart" at Nov 8, 97 12:46:26 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just keeping this going a bit by saying thanks to Matt for his modification of my last post. He's right of course to call into question these constructions of American "individualism," what with their dubious histories past and present. I guess my main point which I'll try to state w/ a bit less hyperbole this time around is that I see American religiosity as sort of(I hate and hesitate to use this term but here goes...) always already reactionary - which is to say it is in perpetual response to the anxiety that the prime mover in American culture is actually the will to believe in nothing in particular or, worse even, the will to, in Ralph Ellison's words, "make chaos out of no longer tenable order." Utopian to be sure but as Jameson argues so deftly in The Political Unconscious, utopian gestures are never autonomous, they're socially symbolic acts. In a way (and here surely is my own "American-ness" coming to the fore) I'm more hopeful about American prospects for secularization b/c the culture doesn't really offer up an accepatble substitute for God - "The State," for instance. So maybe there's a secular, improvisational collective at the end of this road. That's the utopia I'd like to gesture toward in any case. -Mike. According to Matthew Hart: > > Hello all: > > I'm going to announce myself on the list (stepping out from lurker-land) > by arguing with Mike, which is a safe thing to do, given that I can throw > bottles at his windows from here. > > Actually, I'm in general agreement with Mike's post, especially when he's > talking about the classroom. But this extract below strikes me as needing > some modulation: > > > This is picked up from the strain on "American-ness" and I can't quite > > figure out who wrote it but I'm in total agreement. The idea that > > Americans are the most religious people in the world (you hear it on the > > nightly news at least weekly in one form or another) is just plain stupid. > > For the huge majority of Americans, including - and perhaps *especially* - > > the "very religious" ones, religion is like the key chain that you can get > > "personalized" at the mall by having your name engraved on it. And, as > > >From my British perspective, the statement "Americans are the most > religious people in the world" may not seem absolutely true (ie, vs. > Israel or Iran, or another theocracy) but it has a certain truth value > that's sociologically important. What struck me the first time I lived in > Philly was the number of young people I knew who, although they professed > no real, evangelical belief, would attend major religious festivals or > services, and were *extremely* loath to commit to any kind of atheism. > Amongst university students in Britain, this kind of middle-class > religiosity just doesn't occur. > > So what, though? > > Well, a couple of things. Firstly, these "key-chain" Christians (or > whatever) aren't dolts, although we might want to see them as > ideologically interpellated/disciplined/constructed (add your fave > theoretical term here). Secondly, it seems to me that it's exactly the > personalization of religion that goes on in the U.S. that allows it to > survive here in the way it doesn't/hasn't/won't elsewhere. Mike's aside > on the Puritan tradition seems key here, although I'd go more with Irving > Howe's comments from _Politics and the Novel_ on American individualism > and its relations to politics. Howe notes that this individualist strain > provokes a paradox between America(n)'s ability to situate themselves on a > micro-political level and their/its corresponding inability to utilise the > macro-political field: > > "Personalizing everything, they could not quite do justice to the life of > politics in its own right.... Personalizing everything, they could > brilliantly observe how social and individual experience melt into one > another so that the deformations of the one soon become the deformations > the other." > > In a poetics context, the relevant comparison would seem to be between > this religiosity and the spectre of Eng. Lit. departments whihc, despite > their theoretical sophistication, resist writing practices (creative > or critical) which enact this sophistication. > > But this is enough for now . . . > > Matt Hart > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:36:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cloward@UTDALLAS.EDU Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David, excuse any heavy-handedness in my response to your post. I think we are essentially in agreement about the dangers of any scientific reductionism (Darwinian fundamentalism, nostalgic empiricism, utilitarianism, what have you) that prescribes a specific type of poetry, but I heartily disagree with your assertion that informed speculation concerning poetry in evolutionary terms cannot tell us anything useful about contemporary possibilities. As Henry Gould points out, there is the possibility in this type of discussion of not simply boxing poetry in a scientific framework but of a reciprocal reframing of science in the wildness of poetry. This, I think, is the best prescription for reading Frederick Turner's work and understanding his take on the neurobiological roots of poetry. I think Turner's theoretical work stands up much better when read in conjunction with the poetic work that deals most directly with the subject (I would recommend the aphorisms in his early book The Garden and the long poem Field Notes in his upcoming collection, Hadean Eclogues, as the best points of entry). This work is, indeed, deeply speculative, "fantasy and confabulation" if you will, but he does make some fascinating connections (between verbal play, the performative roots of literature and the biological roots of ritual, for instance) which I find immensely useful. And beneath all the jargon Turner offers a simple explanation of "what poetry is for" which I find profoundly attractive: Joy! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 16:02:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Spe3aking American Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's a lot of generalizations to chew on: America (The US version) is such an odd beast that American writers spend an inordinate amount of time wondering at it, some of us almost to the exclusion of all else. And religion, broadly defined, is, I think, at the heart of it. Us white folks, anyway, have always been messianic, often millenarian and utopian. This is equally true of the lot that landed in Boston in 1630, which already saw this savage shore as the last chance to demonstrate the right ordering of human society, the Adventists, the Mormons, the socialists, the hippies, and all the believers in various forms of manifest destiny. We still talk about extending the American Way to all corners. This has had all kind of results--the elevation of the individual to such an extent that coherent group action becomes difficult (one strain of our utopianism actually posits that the collective is unnecessary--a mere hampering of the individual's possibilities that can be doffed like an old coat), on the one hand, and the despair in almost all corners at the failure of the political or theological millenium to arrive. But let me stick with individualism, the weed sowed here not just by radical protestantism, but by the fact that America has been the great escape hatch for individuals and eccentric groups that had a hard time with the limitations imposed by the collectivities they left. Those most committed to the old place didn't leave, regardless of circumstance, which is why there are still Irish in Ireland and Jews and Gypsies in Western Europe. Those most disaffiliated left most easily, others required the imposition of more stress, and others decided that the stress of leaving was more difficult to contemplate than whatever awaited them if they remained at home. So we have a populace selected and self-selected from those least skilled at the maintenance of society, and arriving, often, with an individualist theology in a place where that theology was a dominant strain. American Exceptionalism is that individualism writ large. So the hostility toward organized society becomes intense to the point of manichianism, and you get, as extreme manifestations of widespread sentiments, anti-flag burning amendments, HUAC, Ruby Ridge, and Oklahoma City. Now throw in religion. Not all theists are Disney theists, but the Disney theists, because of their vague religious identification, in an environment where fine analysis is not exactly a given, are particularly easy for their more committed brethren to lead astray, into creationism and other antiscientific mind-sets. We not only have the largest percentage of self-proclaimed religious believers (and church-goers) in the industrialized world, we have the largest collection of believers in astrology, UFO's, etc. What the collective tries to teach to the contrary is suspect, because the collective may by the very fact of its collectivity be the enemy. Which leaves a lot of people pretty vulnerable to persuasion from the collectives that masquerade as the promoters of the individual. Given the right shepherd the Ramboys become sheep. An aside to the correspondent from across the water: students at Penn are not the same as students in Arkansas and Arizona. Large Northeastern cities teach relativism as a necessary survival skill, which may be why there is a more liberal political environment. And of course the kids at Penn are selected largely from more-affluent, better-educated homes, and come from a wide variety of environments. When I began teaching in Arizona after years teaching in New York the contrast was immediate and shocking. The kids at Columbia, but also at Hunter, were a lot easier to shake out of whatever preconceptions. This is also true, by the way, of the mostly affluent but educationally-deprived kids who arrive at UC San Diego. I loved teaching in Arizona, but I was very aware that I was starting at a different point. It's good to remember that, while enormous numbers of Americans live in the more challenging environments of the Northeast and the San Francisco to Seattle littoral, they have disproportionately few votes in Washington. North Dakota has two senators, New York City has none. What those whose Americanism is most unquestioned do with their beliefs and their votes matters a lot. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 17:38:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A addendum, perhaps corrective, to the former. Recently my father-in-law died. He was a life-long Presbytarian, raised by his minister father in a branch of one of the southern synods whose orthodoxy would have made John Knox blush. what differentiated them from their already rather austere bretheren was their disallowance of the vanity of music and singing in church. His own trajectory had been towards a much more liberal church and a profound questioning, but at the end he was still a firm theist. His funeral was at the church at Warren Wilson College, and he is buried at their cemetery, which blends easily with the pasture across the fence downhill because there are no headstones, only barely-visible markers flush to the ground. The cemetery is a few rural miles from his home. Before, during and after the funeral there was an outpouring of kindness and support from the community-defined-as-church that was an extraordinary contrast with the circumstances of my own father's funeral. My father's death was marked only by a brief gathering conducted by a rabbi who didn't know him in a commercial funeral parlor, followed by burial in an industrial-scale cemetery too uncomfortable and too far from anyone's home to be easily visited. Some of the church-members who came to the aid of my wife's family I am told are real sons-of-bitches in their daily lives. But that only makes their behavior around a major lifechange more impressive. In the crisis the community was a source of comfort that I can only envy, as the cost of entry is a belief system that I find at best childish. I had thought that this kind of event only happened in movies dripping with treacly nostalgia. Of course, these little communities have seen themselves as corporate individuals standing against the larger society since Christ invited the gang out for passover dinner, and their stated devotion, whatever the concerns of the individuals within them in their secular lives, is not to the future of the larger society or the environment but to the salvation of individual, individually chosen souls, the chosen people elected one by one. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Nov 1997 21:46:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Zimbabwe Links While at Frankfurt Book Fair (which I urge you go to -- the biggest anything I've ever been to! filled with booklovers! plus headspinning "deals" oy) I met Zimbabwean poet, Chirikure Chirikure. He read sweet beauty in Shona; his sister accompanied on mbira. I'll be posting (English trans) poem on http://poetry.miningco.com Tuesday. Would love to link any Zimbabwean poetry sites. Help? Thankew, Bob Holman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:35:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Wilkinson Subject: Re: French Poets born after 1950 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re Pierre Alferi, Equipage in Cambridge (England) has just published the bilingual text of the erotic table-tennis sequence "Personal Pong", English by Kevin Nolan with Alferi's approval, and with a two-page Note de Traducteur which is as pithy an essay on poetics as you will see in many a long day. Equipage plans a Bernard Dubourg work with the involvement of several hands. Equipage c/o Rod Mengham, Jesus College, Cambridge CB5 8BL ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 08:18:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ok, i just have to pull out of my own shit for a moment here, and chime in on the "turner" thread... weird----there's a mark turner who's written imnsho a profoundly misguided book, _reading minds: the study of english in the age of cognitive science_ (princeton up, of all places, 1991) that presumes to speak directly to the "poetry of connections" at the neural level, through the emerging field of "cognitive rhetoric" (we might want to ask what part of the 'brain' contributed to said field 'emerging,' but that might be asking for too much)... if you want to understand what's wrong with notions of chaos theory and the like applied in more direct ways---let's say "evolutionary" ways---to poetic production, or to culture in general, you need first, i think, consider the process of poetic production as, among other things, having something to do with the ways we think... which of course surfaces issues of mind-brain... which is precisely where most such... descriptions?---falter... and interestingly, they seem in their faltering to be prone to resurrecting a rather dated notion of poetic "form" (yeah---vs. content)... i've 'argued' elsewhere that this is b/c mind itself is now thought, in many circles, a technology... so the politics---politics in the broadest sense, but politics nonetheless---of such conceptual maneuvers is all too clear... just starting with cognitive science, for example: have a good long look at _the embodied mind: cognitive science and human experience_, by francisco varela, even thompson, and eleanor rosch (mit, 1991), just to see where cognitive scientists began to resist their own disciplinary reductions even as the "decade of the brain" got started... it's not without its problems, but then, neither is cogsci... i hope i don't sound jaded here---although i am, b/c i'm tired of making this point, which i've been making since i don't know when... i find it aggravating as hell that both turners, paul lake, whoever others, can continue to mount arguments predicated on a so-so grasp of the new sciences... and that they seem in their excursions far less sophisticated than, say, n. katherine hayles in her work on the "isomorphic" relations between the new sciences of complexity and other *forms* of cultural production... and that these chaps do so in order ultimately to propose either (1) a hierarchy simply of poetic value or (2) an explanation, e.g., for how "metaphor" works, i.e., at the *cognitive* level, which generally leads to a social or disciplinary hierarchy of value... which seems to suggest a gesellschaft of sorts, for those so inclined... which is right in line with scientifically absurd, or absurdly scientific, treatments of value such as roger w. sperry's _science and moral piority: merging mind, brain, and human values_(columbia up, 1983)... in fact it's well and good to try to work out correspondences twixt the sciences, so to speak, and the arts---but every damn time this happens it seems to be the arts that are to be "explained" by the sciences... typically with a concluding aesthetic appeal for the intrinsic beauty or some such of the science so informed, and the art so 'described'... anyway... that's my two cents' worth... should be clear i'm with david kellogg on this one... i say you need to read beneath the signs... apologies for my impatience... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 11:51:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: <199711091418.IAA24212@charlie.cns.iit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" what do you all make of ira livingston's book Arrow of Chaos: Romanticism and Postmodernity, along these lines? i'm a big fan of ira's.--md At 8:18 AM -0600 11/9/97, Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher wrote: >ok, i just have to pull out of my own shit for a moment here, and chime in >on the "turner" thread... > >weird----there's a mark turner who's written imnsho a profoundly misguided >book, _reading minds: the study of english in the age of cognitive >science_ (princeton up, of all places, 1991) that presumes to speak >directly to the "poetry of connections" at the neural level, through the >emerging field of "cognitive rhetoric" (we might want to ask what part of >the 'brain' contributed to said field 'emerging,' but that might be asking >for too much)... > >if you want to understand what's wrong with notions of chaos theory and the >like applied in more direct ways---let's say "evolutionary" ways---to >poetic production, or to culture in general, you need first, i think, >consider the process of poetic production as, among other things, having >something to do with the ways we think... > >which of course surfaces issues of mind-brain... which is precisely where >most such... descriptions?---falter... and interestingly, they seem in >their faltering to be prone to resurrecting a rather dated notion of poetic >"form" (yeah---vs. content)... i've 'argued' elsewhere that this is b/c >mind itself is now thought, in many circles, a technology... > >so the politics---politics in the broadest sense, but politics >nonetheless---of such conceptual maneuvers is all too clear... just >starting with cognitive science, for example: have a good long look at >_the embodied mind: cognitive science and human experience_, by francisco >varela, even thompson, and eleanor rosch (mit, 1991), just to see where >cognitive scientists began to resist their own disciplinary reductions even >as the "decade of the brain" got started... it's not without its problems, >but then, neither is cogsci... > >i hope i don't sound jaded here---although i am, b/c i'm tired of making >this point, which i've been making since i don't know when... i find it >aggravating as hell that both turners, paul lake, whoever others, can >continue to mount arguments predicated on a so-so grasp of the new >sciences... and that they seem in their excursions far less sophisticated >than, say, n. katherine hayles in her work on the "isomorphic" relations >between the new sciences of complexity and other *forms* of cultural >production... and that these chaps do so in order ultimately to propose >either (1) a hierarchy simply of poetic value or (2) an explanation, e.g., >for how "metaphor" works, i.e., at the *cognitive* level, which generally >leads to a social or disciplinary hierarchy of value... which seems to >suggest a gesellschaft of sorts, for those so inclined... which is right in >line with scientifically absurd, or absurdly scientific, treatments of >value such as roger w. sperry's _science and moral piority: merging mind, >brain, and human values_(columbia up, 1983)... in fact it's well and good >to try to work out correspondences twixt the sciences, so to speak, and the >arts---but every damn time this happens it seems to be the arts that are to >be "explained" by the sciences... typically with a concluding aesthetic >appeal for the intrinsic beauty or some such of the science so informed, >and the art so 'described'... > >anyway... that's my two cents' worth... should be clear i'm with david >kellogg on this one... i say you need to read beneath the signs... > >apologies for my impatience... > >best, > >joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 10:18:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Stadler Subject: Re: Zimbabwe Links In-Reply-To: <971108214639_-357749367@mrin47> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would also like to know of any Zimbabwe links. An excellent writer in Seattle named Charles Mudede told me of "zim-net" or something like that, but I don't have any details. You could try Charles at charles.mudede@mailexcite.com Matthew Stadler ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:40:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" don't know that one, maria... can you post a quick summary?///basic vectors of thought?... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 19:48:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Call for entry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear List members, As some of you know I wrote a Web Page about the late poet Frank Stanford several months ago (it is currently being updated with new photos, interviews, sound clips, etc., and will be back up in the next few weeks). I would like to invite any of you familiar with his work to write a critical essay for publication on the Web Page. Length is unimportant, as I have access to plenty of server space. Any of you interested can e-mail me at Brent_Long@brown.edu Brent ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Nov 1997 23:14:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Speaking American In-Reply-To: <199711081541.KAA61202@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > If >this means we have to encounter a lot of dopes saying "Jesus loves me, >this I know, 'cause the Bible tells me so," so be it. I can live with >that. I get yr point. But it seems to me that Quilty's point was that these dolts were symptomatic of the folks who have taken it upon themselves to invade as many smaller countries all over the world as they can, for thinking otherwise about things. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Nancarrow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Remembering Nancarrow fans, a piece in yesterday's New York Times on him. And re Tremble, it's a stupendous book, but I do not see it as a phenomenal departure for Wright -- clues? Susan Wheeler wheeler@is.nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:29:25 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Honig online For people interested in Edwin Honig's poetry, a large portion of his collected poems, titled TIME & AGAIN - POEMS 1940 - 1995, is now online at the Contemporary American Poetry Archive. The site is still under construction and there are some problems with lineation & spacing, particularly in the section of Early Poems; also parts 2,4 and 13 are missing, hopefully soon to be added. There is a table of contents for the complete collection as well as a bibliography. Honig has been struggling to find a publisher for this massive collection, but in the meantime Wendy Battin, Charles Hartman, & their helpers at CAPA are providing a very heartening service. CAPA address: http://capa.conncoll.edu. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:41:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: 2 fwded announcements In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1. To: atenx001@gold.tc.umn.edu cc: (bcc: Mark A Nowak/St. Catherine) Subject: Xcp/Ads Dear Alison Aten, _Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics_ has decided, at a recent staff meeting, to begin accepting select advertisements in our upcoming issues. Prices for 5 1/2" x 8 1/2" camera ready ads will be as follows: 1.) one time ad: $100 2.) one ad in 3 consecutive issues (can be different in each issue): $250 Since University of Minnesota Press books are often featured in our review section (_Fictions of Feminist Ethnography_ in issue no. 1, _Modernity at Large_ in issue no. 2), we wanted to invite you to participate in this opportunity in time to get your ad into issue no. 2 (deadline: 20 December 1997). Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics is a semi-annual journal of poetry, poetics, ethnography, and cultural & ethnic studies based in Minneapolis, MN. One thousand copies of each issue are printed and distributed via Bernhard De Boer, Inc. (Nutley, NJ), Small Press Distribution (Berkeley, CA) and Don Olson Distribution (Minneapolis, MN) as well as directly to our subscribers. In addition, 100 copies of _Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics_ are sent to the most distinguished professors, poets, scholars, and university departments and libraries in the United States and Canada. If you would like more info. on this introductory opportunity, please feel free to e-mail or call me (612.690.7747) for more information. Sincerely, Mark Nowak, ed. _Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics_ 2. Subject: Call for papers--Queer Theory conference at the UofM Greetings! I received your name from the University of Minnesota's GLBT Programs Office, and wanted to forward you the following information. QGPA, a graduate and professional association at the U of M, will be co-sponsoring a conference on April 24-26, 1998, concerning the efficacy of queer theory. Please review the call for papers I have attached tto the bottom of this e-mail and feel free to forward it to any listservs, students, or colleagues who may be interested. I appreciate your time, and hope you will be as excited about this upcoming event as I am. Best wishes, Thomas O. Haakenson Comparative Studies in Discourse & Society Program Department of Cultural Studies and Comparative Literature University of Minnesota - Twin Cities ********************************************************************* Offices: GLBT GAPSA Co-Chairperson COGS Representative for the CSDS Program E-Mail: Thomas.O.Haakenson-1@tc.umn.edu Phone: (612)-825-9063 S-Mail: 3424 Bryant Avenue South CSDS Program Minneapolis, Minnesota 55408-4110 University of Minnesota 612.825.9063 350 Folwell Hall 9 Pleasant Street S.E. Minneapolis, MN 55455 ******************************************************************** : ************************************************************************ "HOW QUEER ARE WE HERE?" INTERROGATING THE EFFICACY OF QUEER THEORY AND POLITICS APRIL 24-26, 1998 University of Minnesota, Twin Cities ************************************************************************CALL FOR PAPERS QGPA, the Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Transgender Graduate and Professional Association of the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, Announces an Interdisciplinary Graduate Student Conference: Recent critical and political theory has attempted to formulate the notion of "Queer" identity as a radical response to various institutions of power and domination; critics have posited this queer identity as both a disruption of traditional subject positions as well as an opportunity for the creation of alternative, destabilized configurations of subjectivity. Increasingly, however, queer identity seems in danger of "assimilation" by the very institutions that it ostensibly challenges. Can queer theory and politics continue to offer effective resistance to these normalizing regimes of power, and if so what tactics of deployment will allow them to retain their subversive edge? Our conference will explore the current situation by posing questions including, though certainly not limited to, the following: How--if at all--has the development of a "queer" culture problematized the earlier "gay" and "lesbian" cultures that came before it? To what extent do the devotees of queer or other resistant sexual styles (S&M, Drag, etc.) illustrate the precepts of academic theory by recognizng their deployment of these styles as actually formative, rather than merely expressive, of their identities? How do notions of queer identity intersect with the discourse of political action? How does queer theory "resist" or "subvert" hegemony? And can one speak of a "queer revolution?" Have the strategies of radical organizations like Queer Nation enabled the creation of a quepractices merely reinforced the identity categories already in place? Has the recent popularization of the "camp" aesthetic negated its subversive power to re-signify cultural products, thereby reducing camp's resistance of the market economy to the commodified lure of "kitsch?" Does the current trend toward sexual ambiguity in popular advertising signal the emergence of a new "queer" target audience? If so, what is the relation of queer identity to contemporary capitalism? Has the surge of interest in "drag" performance created "queer" cabaret spaces in which variously sexed subjects can re-negotiate their own identity positions? Or do these performances simply repeat and thus replicate the common conventions of a male/female gender dichotomy? What are the implications of genetic research for "queering" our notions of biological "sex?" Will the "encoding" of the body effected by the Human Genome Project reconfigure our definitions of gender, or further fix the criteria employed in the binary division of sex? How will the increasing institutionalization of Queer Studies within the Academy affect its ability to challenge the dictums of power and authority? Please send a one page single-spaced abstract by December 15, 1997 to: Thomas Haakenson Department of Cultural Studies & Comparative Literature 350 Folwell Hall, 9 Pleasant Street Southeast University of Minnesota-Twin Cities Minneapolis, MN 55455 For further Information, please send inquiries to the above address, or by e-mail to: Thomas.O.Haakenson-1@tc.umn.edu or Awesley537@aol.com ************************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:14:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Turner is there still but where's Merwin? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks Joe for that summary of the problems inherent in the Turners' etc approach to science & hierarchy. Interesting to see the huge silence that greeted Aviva's posting of: <> & why was that? I found it interesting from a number of perspectives. One, of course, is the cultural economy, & Davison's neat build-up of his own editing via praise of Merwin. Another was the bland assumtions carried by a nifty metaphorical argument for Merwin's growth etc over the years. I also found intriguing the bio of Davison at the end: two books I probabaly wont be reading, but does that not simply reveal my biases as against his? Well, yes, but. I'm called back to the query as to why I would 'choose' Creeley over Merwin, which isnt quite what I was doing, although I do admit that given the choice... What I suspect I (& many others here) do do is 'choose' a particular open poetics that Creeley also chooses over one less so that Merwin seem much of the time to belong to or with. For example that means that I'm a big fan of Levertov too, but still not of Merwin. But I admit that I dont know Merwin's work all that well, for the reasons given earlier,that I can only read so much, have not been called back by his work to his work the way I am by, well, so many others (in Canada, we have a number of poets many on the list may not have even heard of, whose work I will continue to read with great joy: Phyllis Webb, to name just one of Merwin's generation, for example). Anyway: what is also fascinating about that Davison article is that it does represent a particular, & perhaps quite large, 'audience,' as well as a particular politics, for which his kind of rhetoric of criticism is meaningful, carries weight. That's the fragmented world of poetry today, however small, neh? ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That which we took so much for granted --Holy poetry of water and of fire-- Is suddenly debatable. Gwendolyn MacEwen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:15:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Merwin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I warned ya! I mentioned at the outset that the person who wanted to discuss Merwin here would not find it a hotbed of Merwin fans.... It would be mildly interesting to know, Douglas, if by "early poetry" you mean the very academic-formalist-subYeatsian work of the fifties (Green with Beasts, etc....four books and scads of poems) or the more famous surreal-derived work after 1960, beginning with The Moving Target. As I see it he changed rather radically 2 times: in the turn to surrealist/deep image writing around 1960; and in the turn to a more relaxed "positive" and affirmative tone about 1971 or so. Oddly, Marjorie P. in her scathing article about Merwin treats these periods (and certainly the two after 1960) as a single body of work with no breaks. Also oddly, I happened to begin discussing the Perloff essay with a poet here in Atlanta about a week before Merwin was brought up on the list. He recalls it as relatively measured and respectful, with some critique of Merwin. I remember it as a savage attack. (--which is not meant to indicate unfairness; I'm a great fan, in the right context, of savage attacks on them as deserves 'em...) (Neither the other poet nor myself considers Merwin someone of the first importance to our universe, but we were discussing variants in different countries of image-based work derived from surrealism and related currents..) I do have some liking for the dark, violent, negative, politically-tinged surrealist work of the 1960s. The lightening up after that produces work that to me reads as flabby and without urgency or content, and written with a faith that whimsical humanistic sensibility will make undisciplined and lethargic verse writing interesting...The later work I dislike so is exemplified by Douglas' favorite, Finding the Islands. The sixties stuff I always associated in my mind with the hispanic, French and East European-based work that influenced it. And as such, it is not bad, to my ear. Perloff of course, doesn't see the break in the early seventies and (as I recall her analysis) thinks it all pretty poor stuff. Oddly (why drop the word when I'm having so much fun?) I agree with most of her specific analytic points, as to what M's weaknesses are. But just don't see them as ruining the work *quite* as much a she does.. Mark P. On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Douglas Barbou r wrote: > Generally, I'd have to side with Patrick Pritchett on this one, although I > do like a lot of his translations. But I went after a lot of the early > poetry, read it, & then put it away. In regard to Creeley, whose work I > return to all the time, I just am not called back to the Merwin. Except for > one book, published outside his usual venues, by the late lamented North > Point, _Finding the Islands_, which was something of a formal move for him > as well. Not 'great' but certainly of interest to this reader... > > ============================================================================== > Douglas Barbour > Department of English > University of Alberta > Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 > (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 > H: 436 3320 > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > That which we took so much for granted > --Holy poetry of water and of fire-- > Is suddenly debatable. > Gwendolyn MacEwen > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: French poets after 1950 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Other poets who might be of interest: Yves Bichet Dominique Buisset Jean-Pierre Lemaire Paul Le Jeloux Bruno Montel Hope this list is useful. Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 08:50:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Tate" Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Ho In-Reply-To: <01IPQ5G18WRM972JGJ@iix.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 7 Nov 1997, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: > Isn't it enough to say that poetry is a cultural product? That > whatever dim primeval impulse first stimulated its rudimentary expressions > that by now - several millennia later - poetry is a cultural construction > and requires no further justification than that? As if it needed any in the > first place. It doesn't seem enough to say "poetry is a cultural product." It doesn't explain how children are lulled to sleep by lullabies or why a spine might tingle listening to a recording of Yeats. Joseph Tate Graduate Student U. of Washington, Seattle ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:24:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: from "Maria Damon" at Nov 10, 97 08:41:42 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just letting everyone know that, if you happen to be in Philly on thursday, Nathaniel Mackey will be reading at The Writers House on the Penn campus (3805 Locust Walk). As I'm guessing many of you know, Mackey is a brilliant writer of poetry, novels and literary criticism. He's also recently released of CD of poetry to musical accompaniment. The reading begins at 8. Anyone who wants more info feel free to e-mail me. -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:31:19 -0800 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: request for submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit _Fourteen Hills: The SFSU Review_ the nationally distributed magazine from San Francisco State University will be accepting submissions for the Spring/Summer 1998 issue until February 6. _Fourteen Hills_ publishes poetry, fiction and drama, including creative nonfiction and cross genre work. Past contributors include: Po Bronson, CD Wright, Sherman Alexie, Amiri Baraka, Peter Gizzi, Aaron Shurin, Leslie Scalapino, Paul Hoover and Michael Palmer. The Fall/Winter 1997 issue, available toward the end of December 1997 includes: a conversation with Dorothy Allison; poetry by Laynie Browne, Gustaf Sobin, Sianne Ngai, Sheila E. Murphy, and many others; fiction includes: Marianne Villanueva, Gordon Lish, and Laura Moriarty among others. It also features two pieces of drama by emerging playwrights Robert Barker and Daniele Nathanson. Please send your submission with SASE to: Fourteen Hills Creative Writing Department San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Ave San Francisco, CA 94132 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:41:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: <199711101724.MAA80654@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown University, and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I have ever been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with "language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no method to the madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. Brent At 12:24 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Just letting everyone know that, if you happen to be in Philly on >thursday, Nathaniel Mackey will be reading at The Writers House on the >Penn campus (3805 Locust Walk). As I'm guessing many of you know, Mackey >is a brilliant writer of poetry, novels and literary criticism. He's also >recently released of CD of poetry to musical accompaniment. The reading >begins at 8. Anyone who wants more info feel free to e-mail me. > >-Mike. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971110124146.006a8b08@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Brent Long" at Nov 10, 97 12:41:46 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent's detraction aside, I still think most of you would enjoy it; others I've heard from have told me he's a wonderful reader. Though I haven't heard him read yet his work knocks me out. Those of you who feeling like taking the gamble probably know who you are. -m. According to Brent Long: > > I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown University, > and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I have ever > been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with > "language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no method to the > madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. > > Brent > > > At 12:24 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Just letting everyone know that, if you happen to be in Philly on > >thursday, Nathaniel Mackey will be reading at The Writers House on the > >Penn campus (3805 Locust Walk). As I'm guessing many of you know, Mackey > >is a brilliant writer of poetry, novels and literary criticism. He's also > >recently released of CD of poetry to musical accompaniment. The reading > >begins at 8. Anyone who wants more info feel free to e-mail me. > > > >-Mike. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:41:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeff Hansen Organization: The Blake School Subject: Quirkiness MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Aviva Yogel describes a C.D. Wright lecture as "quirky but brilliant." Why the "but"? Aviva seems to be saying quirky and brilliant. Yet the but remains. The word is supposed to join contrasting elements, such as "not bagels, but doughnuts." Here, it is joining seemingly contrasting elements that are in fact not so. A synonymous phrase would be, I think, "while quirky, neverless brillant." Funny, I don't dissassociate quirkiness from brilliance at all. I think the former is a component of the latter. I'd be startled at a brilliant lecture that was not quiky. What do you'll think? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:51:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Blarnes Subject: Re: Quirkiness In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Nov 1997 11:41:02 -0500 from On a rather sunny but bleak and overcast but brilliant afternoon, the irascible but gentle Jack Spandrift was resting his butt in the leather but naugahyde saddle but saddless horse but horseless carriage he called Ford Pinto just before it wouldn't start but exploded!! And Jack, flying but falling into but out of the air would have splattered but landed safely but for his stirrups which snagged but slipped but eventually snagged on a flimsy but brilliant cloud in a twister over a large but puny Butte called Montana but also called Idaho! But lucky, Jack! A Tall but Rather Small Cowboy But Story by Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:17:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Quirkiness In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hansen" at Nov 10, 97 11:41:02 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd say "quirkiness" and "brilliance" go pretty much hand and hand for me, so I'm w/ Jeff. In fact, quirk is one of those great words which the OED lists as "of obscure origin," which makes it all the more quirky, as lots of Q words are, "quibble" for example, which is generally assumed to be a hybrid of "quip" and "gibe," but who knows. I spent an afternoon in the Q section of my dictionary, along with some forays into the a's and i's for more Q-associated words. The result was the following piece of writing: Q: A MANY FACED O inquisitiveness is acquisitiveness without acquisitions a quest without questionable acquest a quake or quaver in the aquiclude makes it acquit what it'’s acquired aquiclude become an aquifer of inferences querying inquests and inquisitions qualifying a quote'’s quality in a quota of queered quirks acquiring inquietude acquisitive become a quiz it if to acquiesce unquietly to questioning acquaintances getting acquainted with how a fella like Attilla could kill Aquileia never quell quill quibble questions qua actions aqui aqui aqui -Mike. According to Jeff Hansen: > > Aviva Yogel describes a C.D. Wright lecture as "quirky but brilliant." > Why the "but"? Aviva seems to be saying quirky and brilliant. Yet the > but remains. The word is supposed to join contrasting elements, such as > "not bagels, but doughnuts." Here, it is joining seemingly contrasting > elements that are in fact not so. A synonymous phrase would be, I > think, "while quirky, neverless brillant." > > Funny, I don't dissassociate quirkiness from brilliance at all. I > think the former is a component of the latter. I'd be startled at a > brilliant lecture that was not quiky. > > What do you'll think? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:30:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: Quirkiness In a message dated 97-11-10 14:10:27 EST, you write: << Aviva Vogel describes a C.D. Wright lecture as "quirky but brilliant." Why the "but"? Aviva seems to be saying quirky and brilliant. Yet the but remains. The word is supposed to join contrasting elements, such as "not bagels, but doughnuts." Here, it is joining seemingly contrasting elements that are in fact not so. A synonymous phrase would be, I think, "while quirky, neverless brillant." Funny, I don't dissassociate quirkiness from brilliance at all. >> I suppose the "but" occurred because I was initially disappointed or frustrated with a lecture that was delivered with some of the same associative leaps and syntactical experiments (on a very mild scale, relatively speaking) that C.D. tends to use with her poetry. Having at first hoped for a more prosaically-expressed lecture, as I'm used to, I felt myself having trouble engaging fully...until about midway through, I'd become accustomed to her delivery, and could hear with more flexible ears. Suddenly, I was engaged on several levels; the usual "listening to a good lecture" level which is quite analytical, and the unusual "listening to a poem" level which is more intuitive. The first kind of listening is generally a more linear experience, while the second kind is generally a more global experience. Part of C.D.'s brilliance, I have concluded, comes from her ability to offer a lecture that stimulated and occupied both kinds of listening processes. --Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:24:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Just for the record, Nate Mackey read solo (no wife) at Brown on 16th October 1997, doing a set entirely drawn from the *Song of the Andoumboulou* cycle (no particular affiliation with "language" poetry). Of the fifty or more people there, few that I spoke with shared Brent's opinion. The *Song* chronicles the wanderings of a spectral collective, a sort of rough sketch for a possible humanity, through mishaps sexual, musical, and unusual. It'd be poetry in most books. Come to think of it, Brent probably means to point the polemical finger at P. Inman, who on 8 October read his work, often rhythmed out of sub-lexical morphemes, with Tina Darragh. While I would heartily dispute Brent's dismissive take on the event, the response seems more likely directed there than at Mackey. Steve Evans Brent Long writes: >I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown University, >and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I have ever >been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with >"language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no method to the >madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:22:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:08 -0500 from On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:08 -0500 you said: >> I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown University, >> and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I have ever >> been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with >> "language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no method to the >> madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. > Brent I know that "language" poetry or "language poetry" or language poe"try" covers just about everything from Hans Jonas to Rin Tin-Tin these days, but you'll have to explain to me how it covers these gnostic riffs from Nate Mackey's "Songs of the Andoumboulou: 12": Weathered raft I saw myself adrift on. Battered wood I dreamt I drummed on, driven. Scissored rose, newly braided light, slack hoped-for rope groped at, unraveled. Braided star we no longer saw but remembered, threads overlapping the rim of a sunken world, rocks we no longer saw by extinguished, Namoratunga's long-tethered light. That's the opening anyway--apologies for lineation inexactitude resulting from the program. The point is that you'll read all day and all night in the "lan"guage poets I know, from Andrews to Tin-Tin, without finding anything much looking like this. "Decay thrusts the blade" but only frustration delurks, Keith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 15:53:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: from "Steve Evans" at Nov 10, 97 03:24:14 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Steve, for the clarification. Hope to see some of you at the event. -Mike. According to Steve Evans: > > Just for the record, Nate Mackey read solo (no wife) at Brown on 16th > October 1997, doing a set entirely drawn from the *Song of the > Andoumboulou* cycle (no particular affiliation with "language" poetry). Of > the fifty or more people there, few that I spoke with shared Brent's > opinion. The *Song* chronicles the wanderings of a spectral collective, a > sort of rough sketch for a possible humanity, through mishaps sexual, > musical, and unusual. It'd be poetry in most books. > > Come to think of it, Brent probably means to point the polemical finger at > P. Inman, who on 8 October read his work, often rhythmed out of sub-lexical > morphemes, with Tina Darragh. While I would heartily dispute Brent's > dismissive take on the event, the response seems more likely directed there > than at Mackey. > > Steve Evans > > Brent Long writes: > >I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown > University, > >and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I > have ever > >been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with > >"language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no > method to the > >madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:05:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" last I saw Mackey and his wife, she was working on a promising book about Genet -- As far as I know, they've never "read" together, though I've seen them reading at the same time -- On the other hand, it would be pretty hard to mistake Pete Inman and Tina Darragh for Nataniel & Pascal Mackey -- so . . . what DID happen at the reading???????? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:02:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: Una Selva Oscura: Tom Phillips's Inferno Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" fans of _A Humument_ might find this ov interest... >Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 12:53:54 -0600 >From: Kevin Ray >Subject: Una Selva Oscura: Tom Phillips's Inferno >To: BOOK_ARTS-L@LISTSERV.SYR.EDU > >Washington University's Department of Special Collections presents "Una >Selva Oscura: Tom Phillips's Inferno." This exhibition will be on view >from 3 November 1997 through 5 January 1998 in Olin Library. This >exhibition is part of Washington University's conference "The Dual Muse: >The Writer as Artist, The Artist as Writer," 7-9 November, 1997. > >In the late 1970s, Tom Phillips began a project to both illustrate and >translate Dante's _Inferno_. If translation is always a doubled process, >shifting and transforming the language into which a work is translated, >Phillips's doubled transit would be of a far greater complexity. It was >to be, truly, a dual translation, from Dante's Italian into contemporary >English, but also from one language of the page, the chiefly verbal, into >another, the verbal-visual combined glyph of the illustrated book. > >"Una Selva Oscura" will show the process of the Phillips _Inferno_, from >the surviving proofs of the first, fire-destroyed version, through the >notebooks and manuscripts in which Phillips works out not only text and >illustrations but also the physical structure and arrangement of the book >itself, to the final edition, produced at Phillips's own Talfourd Press. > >Drawing on the magnificent resources of the Ruth and Marvin Sackner >Archive of Concrete and Visual Poetry, the exhibition concludes with a >single page, the spectral, shroudlike image of ink on the carbon-paper >backing Phillips used in typing out his translation. Though no word is >clear or legible, the whole of it faintly suggestive of a face, like >Veronica's napkin or the ghost images revealed in x-rays, this page, a >summation, bears the impression of every word of Dante's text, as the word >itself, repeating and echoing, becomes an image, an icon. > >Special Collections has produced a 26-page, full-color exhibition catalog >for this exhibit, available for $10.00. To order a catalog, or for more >information, contact: > Special Collections -- email: spec@library.wustl.edu > phone: 314-935-5495 > fax: 314-935-4045 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 14:01:36 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: French poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" When Danielle Collobert was mentioned a few days ago I asked Norma Cole to email me the details of her translation of Collobert. The book is called It Then and was published by O Books in 1989. http://www.OBooks.com/ Another source of contemporary French writing, including more Collobert, (I can't remember whether this was already posted) is Violence of the White Page/Contemporary French Writing edited by Stacey Doris, Emmanuel Hocquard and Phillip Foss and published by Foss as an issue of Tyuonyi. Norma also provided the following info about the upcoming translation issue of Raddle Moon about which Susan Clark has also posted: Raddle Moon 16: TWENTY-TWO NEW (to North America) FRENCH WRITERS!!!! Probably all born after 1950, some even after 1960. Or younger!!!! Edited by Norma Cole & Stacy Doris, with translations by 22 American writers, this new issue should be out sometime in the next week or two. Check out RM website. http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/pnet/publicat/raddle/rm.htm To celebrate the new issue: New York reading 3 p.m. Saturday November 22 at the Center for Independent Art, 145 6th Ave. (bet. Spring & Broome) NYC. San Francisco reading 7:30 p.m. Thursday December 11 at Canessa Park Gallery, 708 Montgomery St. (at Columbus). Distributors:-- CANADA: The Canadian Magazine Publishers Assn., 2 Stewart St., Toronto Ontario M5A 1H6 and by Raddle Moon, #518-350 East 2nd Avenue, Vancouver B.C. V5T 4R8 USA: SMALL PRESS DISTRIBUTION, 1341 Seventh Street, Berkeley CA 94710-1403 orders@spdbooks.org phone 510-524-1668; fax 510-528-0852; outside Bay Area phone 1-800-869-7553 UK: Paul Green, Spectacular Diseases, 83b London Road, Peterborough, Cambs. AUSTRALIA: Collected Works Bookshop, 1st Floor, 238 Flinders Lane, Melbourne 3000, Victoria ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:16:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I stand corrected...it was indeed P. Inman that I was thinking of...my apologies. Brent At 03:24 PM 11/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >Just for the record, Nate Mackey read solo (no wife) at Brown on 16th >October 1997, doing a set entirely drawn from the *Song of the >Andoumboulou* cycle (no particular affiliation with "language" poetry). Of >the fifty or more people there, few that I spoke with shared Brent's >opinion. The *Song* chronicles the wanderings of a spectral collective, a >sort of rough sketch for a possible humanity, through mishaps sexual, >musical, and unusual. It'd be poetry in most books. > >Come to think of it, Brent probably means to point the polemical finger at >P. Inman, who on 8 October read his work, often rhythmed out of sub-lexical >morphemes, with Tina Darragh. While I would heartily dispute Brent's >dismissive take on the event, the response seems more likely directed there >than at Mackey. > >Steve Evans > >Brent Long writes: > >I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown >University, > >and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I >have ever > >been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with > >"language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no >method to the > >madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:31:17 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L.MacMahon and T.R.Healy" Subject: Re: Other poetry discussions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 13:30 05/11/97 -0500, you wrote: I saw a posting today announcing Rosmarie Waldrop's upcoming reading >tonight, but she and her work are never discussed here, either, and that is >a shame. She and her husband are both amazing poets. > >Brent > Couldn't agree more. I've just finished reading Keith Waldrop's _The Silhouette of the Bridge_ a wonderfully rich exploration/celebration of memory, its products and processes. Some quotes: _A singer's death is more affecting than that of a writer, since a poem or a story stands at more of a distance from the body that has produced it._ The theme of the body is returned to later in a section featuring Keith's dentist. e.g. _"Poetry," he once murmured, his hand in my mouth, "can you live off of poetry? I mean now," he goes on, since I can't answer, "everybody has teeth."_ The dental meditations are interspersed with pieces dealing with desert hermits and Sister Josefa, a victim-saint who willingly went to hell taking on the sins of others. Satan didn't get much change out of her however because of her invincible innocence. _Think how Satan must have scrutinized every fiber, every synapse, for an entrance - eternal he may be, but his space is limited - and he could not find one._ One could go on an on. Wonderful characters sketched, ideas great and small held up and looked at, the unique minutiae, vast systems, a real sense of a rich and nimble mind. A mind too that is not so particularly impressed with itself thus a style that is endlessly engaging and oh just read. Do. Randolph Healy. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 16:57:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Quirkiness In-Reply-To: <199711101917.OAA74500@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable i used to think quirky and brilliant went together, but then i got an academic job where i have met many people who are very smart but have never had an original thought in their lives. it threw me for a loop initially, but now i see it more and more. i used to just not consider these people brilliant or even smart, but maybe my standards have relaxed, faute de mieux. At 2:17 PM -0500 11/10/97, Michael Magee wrote: >I'd say "quirkiness" and "brilliance" go pretty much hand and hand for me, >so I'm w/ Jeff. In fact, quirk is one of those great words which the OED >lists as "of obscure origin," which makes it all the more quirky, as lots >of Q words are, "quibble" for example, which is generally assumed to be a >hybrid of "quip" and "gibe," but who knows. I spent an afternoon in the Q >section of my dictionary, along with some forays into the a's and i's for >more Q-associated words. The result was the following piece of writing: > > > Q: A MANY FACED O > > inquisitiveness is acquisitiveness > without acquisitions a > quest without questionable acquest > a quake or quaver in the > aquiclude makes it acquit > what it'=EDs acquired > aquiclude become an aquifer > of inferences querying inquests > and inquisitions qualifying > a quote'=EDs quality in a > quota of queered quirks > acquiring inquietude > acquisitive become a quiz > it if to acquiesce unquietly > to questioning acquaintances > getting acquainted > with how a fella like Attilla > could kill Aquileia > never quell quill quibble > questions qua actions > aqui aqui aqui > > >-Mike. > > >According to Jeff Hansen: > >> Aviva Yogel describes a C.D. Wright lecture as "quirky but brilliant." >> Why the "but"? Aviva seems to be saying quirky and brilliant. Yet the >> but remains. The word is supposed to join contrasting elements, such as >> "not bagels, but doughnuts." Here, it is joining seemingly contrasting >> elements that are in fact not so. A synonymous phrase would be, I >> think, "while quirky, neverless brillant." >> >> Funny, I don't dissassociate quirkiness from brilliance at all. I >> think the former is a component of the latter. I'd be startled at a >> brilliant lecture that was not quiky. >> >> What do you'll think? >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:02:20 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just a mackey side-note: i taught his work to my "experimental poetry" class for the first time last week. their response: "why is this experimental? this seems just like --poetry." it was a compliment, or their way of saying that content seemed really important. At 3:24 PM -0500 11/10/97, Steve Evans wrote: >Just for the record, Nate Mackey read solo (no wife) at Brown on 16th >October 1997, doing a set entirely drawn from the *Song of the >Andoumboulou* cycle (no particular affiliation with "language" poetry). Of >the fifty or more people there, few that I spoke with shared Brent's >opinion. The *Song* chronicles the wanderings of a spectral collective, a >sort of rough sketch for a possible humanity, through mishaps sexual, >musical, and unusual. It'd be poetry in most books. > >Come to think of it, Brent probably means to point the polemical finger at >P. Inman, who on 8 October read his work, often rhythmed out of sub-lexical >morphemes, with Tina Darragh. While I would heartily dispute Brent's >dismissive take on the event, the response seems more likely directed there >than at Mackey. > >Steve Evans > >Brent Long writes: > >I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown >University, > >and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I >have ever > >been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with > >"language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no >method to the > >madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 17:04:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn In-Reply-To: <971110.154957.EST.KWTUMA@miamiu.muohio.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ps nate's wife is a wonderful jean genet scholar so i'd be interested to know what she read. At 3:22 PM -0500 11/10/97, Keith Tuma wrote: >On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 13:21:08 -0500 you said: > >>> I just saw a reading that Mackey gave with his wife at Brown University, >>> and I have to say that it was one of the most boring readings I have ever >>> been to. Of course, maybe that is because I have a hard time with >>> "language" poetry, but he seemed exceptionally vague, with no method to the >>> madness at all...sorry, but that just ain't poetry in my book. > > > Brent > >I know that "language" poetry or "language poetry" or language poe"try" covers >just about everything from Hans Jonas to Rin Tin-Tin these days, but you'll >have to explain to me how it covers these gnostic riffs from Nate Mackey's >"Songs of the Andoumboulou: 12": > > Weathered raft I saw myself > adrift on. > > Battered wood I dreamt I > drummed on, driven. > >Scissored rose, newly braided > light, slack hoped-for rope > groped at, unraveled. > > Braided star > we no longer saw but remembered, > threads overlapping the rim > of a sunken world, rocks we > no longer saw by extinguished, > Namoratunga's long-tethered > light. > >That's the opening anyway--apologies for lineation inexactitude resulting from >the program. > >The point is that you'll read all day and all night in the "lan"guage poets >I know, from Andrews to Tin-Tin, without finding anything much looking like >this. > >"Decay thrusts the blade" but only frustration delurks, >Keith ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:33:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: to spank your curiosity Comments: To: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are invited to encounter JOGLARS : cross media broadcast : a webspace devoted to the possibilities of online collaboration : 2 projects served up to date : Literature Nation interwriting by Miekal And & Maria Damon : spidertangle wordround an online hyperwriting workshop open to collaborations & interventions ... html conjured by Miekal And point your browser at: http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/index.html Please no crank phonecalls or arbitary aesthetics. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 18:46:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: d.a. levy In-Reply-To: from "Jeff Hansen" at Nov 10, 97 11:41:02 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poets, does anyone know of any critical work out there on _d.a. levy_? i wld appreciate any info. and thanx in advance. please call me back door if u wish. carl ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:12:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: (Fwd) Re: Talk by Spivak MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT (Has this been reported here already?) -- just in case not, > Gayathri Spivak is to give a lecture "Theory - Remains" > in Manhattan (at the Drawing Center - Wooster St.) > When-and-where: Friday, Nov 21, 7 pm. $10. > The Drawing Center is located at 35 Wooster, betn Broome and Grand. d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 20:14:07 -0800 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: Re: French poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Unfortunately, the web site that Laura posted http://www.wimsey.com/~ksw/pnet/publicat/raddle/rm.htm which appears on the masthead of our recent issue is no longer functional as its provider [wimsey.com] is defunct. We are re-building it and getting a new ISP. It should be ready in a couple of weeks and will have ordering information and full tables of contents for past and forthcoming issues and -- probably later -- a small portfolio of work from recent and forthcoming issues. I'll post to the list as soon as it's up. Everything else Laura says is true! Susan Susan Clark RADDLE MOON clarkd@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:37:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Honig online MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Henry Gould wrote, > For people interested in Edwin Honig's poetry, a large portion of > his collected poems, titled TIME & AGAIN - POEMS 1940 - 1995, is now > online at the Contemporary American Poetry Archive. The site is > still under construction . . . > Honig has been struggling to find a publisher for this massive > collection, but in the meantime Wendy Battin, Charles Hartman, & > their helpers at CAPA are providing a very heartening service. CAPA > address: > http://capa.conncoll.edu. I looked at that address and searched around varous pages, but found nor hide nor hair of Honig. (nor of a contemp. po archive) Can you give a more particular URL? d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 01:01:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Merwin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mark P., -- as one much drawn to Mewin & having considerable respect for Marjorie Perloff's tremendous critical chops (and sharing interest in much that she celebrates), your mention of an essay (scathing or otherwise) by her re: him, makes me curious. Do you happen to know where that's located? The turns you mention in Merwin's work seem right, but would I'd add that he has taken further turns *After* the 70s material. The work in *Travels* exemplifies one such, and what's found in *The Vixen* seems a further development, in a rather different stride from anything before -- in which the "concerns" of the 60s work is layered within a new mode of formalism quite different from his original (50s) formalism, but maybe echoing it (very distantly, or somehow) -- with a few exceptions, where formalism (in old sense) is explicit, as in the remarkable poem "Search Party" (based on Villon) . . . a few old poems, such as "The Way to the River" and one called (if memory serves) "A Hymn to the Eyes" (both prob. from the *Carrier of Ladders* / *Drunk in the Furnace* period more or less) -- or one entitled "Route with No Number", are among those that occasioned repeated readings (in recent few years). My involvement with the evocations of *Finding the Islands* was partly related to painting, as some of the Jungianisms therein (and the way in which a melding of *ghazal* with *haiku* seemed to occur) found place in my colored notebooks; -- anyone interested to have some sense of where WSM is at these latter days could do worse than to peruse the title poem of *The Vixen* -- a summary poem, seems . . . well, I know I'm in a minority here, n'est pa? I started reading Merwin when I started reading Scalapino & Palmer (& thence Creeley & Ashbery & whatnot, circa some mere decade & half ago -- and carry all these motley strands along still . . . , w/ delight) -- maugre the hubub of schools, I loves 'em d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 22:41:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Other poetry discussions In-Reply-To: <199711102231.WAA03023@mail.iol.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You might also mention Ted Berrigan and his widow. Both excellent poets. Not to mention Creeley and his ex-wife. I thought that Browning was a better poet than his wife, but Shelley wasnt as good a novelist as HIS wife. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 02:24:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Merwin's Ghazal & Haiku Thing In a message dated 97-11-11 01:23:06 EST, you write: << melding of *ghazal* with *haiku* >> I had sensed this kind of syncretism in Merwin's work (what little I've read of it). Thanks for pointing it out. I hadn't put words to it. --Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:21:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Other poetry discussions In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Nor as good a swimmer. At 10:41 PM 11/10/97 -0700, you wrote: >You might also mention Ted Berrigan and his widow. Both excellent poets. >Not to mention Creeley and his ex-wife. I thought that Browning was a >better poet than his wife, but Shelley wasnt as good a novelist as HIS wife. > > > > >George Bowering. > , >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:00:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: Honig online In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:37:34 -0400 from On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 00:37:34 -0400 David R. Israel said: >Henry Gould wrote, > >> For people interested in Edwin Honig's poetry, a large portion of >> his collected poems, titled TIME & AGAIN - POEMS 1940 - 1995, is now >> online at the Contemporary American Poetry Archive. The site is >> still under construction . . . > >> Honig has been struggling to find a publisher for this massive >> collection, but in the meantime Wendy Battin, Charles Hartman, & >> their helpers at CAPA are providing a very heartening service. CAPA >> address: >> http://capa.conncoll.edu. > >I looked at that address and searched around varous pages, but found >nor hide nor hair of Honig. (nor of a contemp. po archive) > >Can you give a more particular URL? Sorry! Here's the correct url : http://capa.conncoll.edu/ I left off the final slash. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 08:06:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: d.a. levy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" carl-- i'm current at work on the levy pages fr the Burning Press website; a number of sites online have sum work (best is at karl young's Light & Dust site...) will tag on what i have in process to this message. Ingrid Swanberg's _zen concrete & etc._ is th easily available source, the texts are flawed by editing. the ghost press anthology _ukanhavyrfuckincitybak_ is great (usually cataloged by puritan librarians as "d.a. levy, a tribute to the man, an anthology of his poetry" or somesuch), most ov the text ok'd by levy... th druid books _collected poems_ has no criticism & plenty of errors but contains some work thats hard to get elsewhere. jw curry has a onepage visual essay, in his book frm runaway spoon, that totally changed my percept of levy's work--check w/ grumman fr th title... best publicly available archive is at kent state, i think... why dont you stop by some time & we'll make a run down there together? i gotta do some checking m'self... more later lbd >Dear Poets, > >does anyone know of any critical work out there on _d.a. levy_? >i wld appreciate any info. and thanx in advance. >please call me back door if u wish. > >carl da levy

     da levy     

da levy (1944-1968)

========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 09:38:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: d.a. levy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There is some writing by Eric Mottram on d.a. levy -- but can't for the life of me remember off hand where that was published -- & no time to look right now, though if I come across it I'll post -- Pierre > > > >Dear Poets, > > > >does anyone know of any critical work out there on _d.a. levy_? > >i wld appreciate any info. and thanx in advance. > >please call me back door if u wish. > > > >carl > -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- "I think there is a world market for about five computers.' -Thomas J. Watson Chairman of the Board-IBM, 1943 ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:48:50 -0500 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: French poets In-Reply-To: <199711110503.AAA12760@romeo.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII susan clark writes in reference to raddle moon and its website: <> please keep us posted susan. to laura moriarity: any suggestions on how to locate tyuonyi -- spd? and thanks to all those who offered suggestions re contemp frenchpo. cheers, t. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:54:35 -0500 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Merwin In-Reply-To: <199711110601.BAA18333@radagast.wizard.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII David, That was a really interesting and useful post. I'm quite tickled by your bracketting Palmer, Scalapino, Creeley and Ashbery together with Merwin. It certainly does help to shake up the seige-mentality sense of "schools" we all fall into. Your mention of time-frame is very important, I think. *When* one encounters a poet, and in what time-relation to encountering various *other* poets, always ends up having a lot to do with how they think about them. I in contrast encountered Merwin first around 1969 or 1970. At that time (and for some years thereafter) I thought of Duncan and Olson as the basis for what should be done in U.S. poetry, but saw no one who seemed to agree with me (I was about 15, mind you, and there was lots I didn't know about going on..But for that moment in time I wasn't that far off!!) So I turned to exploring work from other national and linguistic cultures, as sustenance, and that meant surrealist-derived, image-based work, very often. So that's the frame in which Merwin always recurs in my memory. But as I say, don't much like his stuff after 1970, which seems to me to lack urgency, and to be by virtually a different poet, despite the superficial similarity of technique. Anyway discussions like this are useful because we all give lip service to an open field of different poetries, but we still tend to have a ghettoized approach, intuitively, to thinking about conemporary work. So I think we owe (Brent, I think it was) who started the thread, some thanks. (Also I agree with him that we ought to have more discussions of recent work; ones that like this one go a bit beyond expressions of preference.) As for Perloff's essay. I don't own the book, and I recently returned all of her books to the library (had far too many things checked out!) but the poet with whom I'm discussing it says that the essay occurs in Poetic License : essays on modernist and postmodernist lyric. Regards, Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 10:59:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian McHale Subject: Re: Una Selva Oscura: Tom Phillips's Inferno In-Reply-To: Message of 11/10/97 at 16:02:35 from au462@CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Content-Type: Text/plain; charset=US-ASCII More info for Tom Phillips aficionados: The videos he made with Peter Greenaway of the first VIII cantos of"Inferno" for British Channel Four (before the money dried up) are now available in the States. I saw them the other night, & they' re highly recommended. Phillips himself is featured, delivering wry commen- tary. The visuals are striking of course: evidently his input in the collabora- tion had a lot to do with the shifts in Greenaway's style that you can see in "Prospero's Books" & "The Pillow Book." Brian ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 11:14:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Puritan librarians NOT In-Reply-To: <199711111306.IAA25390@csu-e.csuohio.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, robert drake wrote: > source, the texts are flawed by editing. the ghost press anthology > _ukanhavyrfuckincitybak_ is great (usually cataloged by puritan > librarians as "d.a. levy, a tribute to the man, an anthology of > his poetry" or somesuch), most ov the text ok'd by levy... th > more later > lbd > Okay foks....Here is your friendly librarian poet, with a few defensive quibbles, by way of reply to lbd, aka Robert Drake. These days things ain't as interesting and loose and goosey here in the library world as once upon a time. You can find the cataloging used by most libraries in shared databases like OCLC (and the one most widely used IS, in fact, OCLC). Librarians don't do as much original cataloging as in the past. So you can find what is "usually" done by librarians in cataloging a given title, by checking OCLC. There are two records there for the book. Both very happily include the world fuck, and the compound word it's embedded in, in several fields of the record. Searchable fields. What lbd was thrown by is a simple cataloging rule, one that's fairly reasonable, but which derives from mainstream trade publishing, and not the more varied kind of formats often used in complexly-designed small-press poetry books and chapbooks. The rule is, that the main title (245 field in the MARC format) is what appears on the title page. According to all the records,D.A. Levy : a tribute to the man, etc. appears on the title page. The long compound word with fuck in it appears on the cover, and *all* cataloging practice for a very long time has considered that the *cover title*...But it is given in the records, quite clearly. Honestly, what lbd noticed has *nothing* to do with the four-letter word...Go look in OCLC and you'll find dozens of books with that word in the title. Nothin' to do with puritans. (Anyway, as a huge fan of Christopher Hill and the radicals who made the English Revolution and chopped off the king's head, I resent the comment on behalf of BOTH librarians AND puritans!!) Huffily in Atlanta Mark P. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 16:07:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: d.a. levy In-Reply-To: <34685FDE.7B77337C@cnsunix.albany.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Carl: I don't know if it's been mentioned yet, but Hugh Fox has some early preliminary stuff on Levy that, if memory serves, isn't bad, in a book called something like _The Living Underground_. From the early 70s, I think. Also, I attended an academic conference this past weekend at which a graduate student presented a paper on levy. There was more Lyotard and co. than d.a. levy in it, but if you're interested, contact me backchannel and I'll give you her name and address so you can write for the paper. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "WHEREVER A BOOK CLOSES A WRITING BEGINS" --Steve McCaffery. > > > > >Dear Poets, > > > > > >does anyone know of any critical work out there on _d.a. levy_? > > >i wld appreciate any info. and thanx in advance. > > >please call me back door if u wish. > > > > > >carl > > > > > -- > ========================================= > pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 > tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu > http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "I think there is a world market for about five computers.' > > -Thomas J. Watson > Chairman of the Board-IBM, 1943 > ========================================== > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 17:47:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: quote for the day "The suggestion that the artist's perception of the world is more complex and intricate than that of the audience (NOT TO MENTION THAT OF HIS CREATIVE FOREBEARS) [note: "bears" - ed.] is ultimately undemocratic and unconvincing.. . The proposition that the artist feels, comprehends and expresses something unattainable by the ordinary person is no more convincing than the suggestion that the artist's physical pain, hunger, and sexual satisfaction are more intense than those of a commoner. [He's been reading his elizabethans - ed.] True art is always democratic precisely because there is no denominator more common, whether in society or history, than the sense that reality is imperfect and that a better alternative should be sought." - Joseph Brodsky, Poet Laureate of the US [ret.], veteran of soviet politics, Everybody's Favorite Reactionary, and the Farther from his Country [p.s. happy Veteran's Day] This little paragraph, beautifully round and perfect, should convince every listreader of the particular glory of Russian vodka-conversation culture and its superiority to every other discourse. For me this paragraph is only equalled by the sentence in Brodsky's essay "Flight from Byzantium" in which he says [to paraphrase] "Constantine was, in a sense, the first Crusader." [ed. note: historians generally agree it was the Crusades that finally destroyed the Byzantine empire]. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:31:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: 2 fwded announcements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > In addition, 100 copies of _Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics_ > are sent to the most distinguished professors, poets, scholars, and > university departments and libraries in the United States and Canada. God knows it's not like me to problematize, nor (on a good day) would I even dream of destabilizing anyone's configuration of subjectivity. But this list of the "hundred most distinguished" is intriguing. Are nominations debated by tenured revolutionary committee? Rachel, waiting by the mailbox ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 19:23:59 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: Re: 2 fwded announcements Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 3:31 PM 11/11/97, Rachel Loden wrote: >> In addition, 100 copies of _Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics_ >> are sent to the most distinguished professors, poets, scholars, and >> university departments and libraries in the United States and Canada. > >God knows it's not like me to problematize, nor (on a good day) would I >even dream of destabilizing anyone's configuration of subjectivity. But >this list of the "hundred most distinguished" is intriguing. Are >nominations debated by tenured revolutionary committee? > >Rachel, waiting by the mailbox geez, i missed that part of the msg. you'll have to ask mark nowak, at manowak@stkate.edu for a clarification. that'll learn me to forward stuff i haven't read through: i have no idea what that means. markie? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 20:01:06 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Blarnes Subject: Re: 2 fwded announcements In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:31:11 -0800 from On Tue, 11 Nov 1997 15:31:11 -0800 Rachel Loden said: >> In addition, 100 copies of _Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics_ >> are sent to the most distinguished professors, poets, scholars, and >> university departments and libraries in the United States and Canada. > >God knows it's not like me to problematize, nor (on a good day) would I >even dream of destabilizing anyone's configuration of subjectivity. But >this list of the "hundred most distinguished" is intriguing. Are >nominations debated by tenured revolutionary committee? > >Rachel, waiting by the mailbox Rachel, for a complete list of the 100 Most Distinguished online (you ARE on it!) proceed without delay to: http://www.Creme.de.la.Creme.edu, a website maintained by the Societe des Plus Puissants et Distingues Professeurs du Monde Entiere et Europeene Declasses et Decrivees et Decouvertes par le Table Ronde des Chapeaux de Neuf-Chateaux-Chapelles-Blancs Avec Buerre Moutarde et Beaucoup de Creme, Inc. I used to belong but excuse-my-french les jeux sont faits and they like full-bearded tenured and so forth. - Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Nov 1997 21:11:28 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Heath 3, help?! I've just received a copy of the new (1998) 3rd edition, Volume 2, of the Heath Anthology of American Literature, Paul Lauter, General Editor. I served as a consultant, reviewed the 2nd edition, and suggested a number revisions in the modern and contemporary poetry selections. As might be expected, most of my suggestions were not accepted. Many of my arguments appear in _Opposing Poetries_ where I take the Heath to task for a narrow aesthetic range. For this 3rd edition, I suggested many changes, including a CD-ROM or an audiotape selection, an expanded range of selections by Baraka and Lorde, inclusion of a range of oral poetries including Rothenberg's work (particularly the Navajo Horse Songs) and Jack Foley's work, AND some attention to a range of Language writings. What's weird is that in the Preface to the 3rd edition, I find myself thanked for my suggestions as a reviewer. And then: "Though we considered these commentaries [those of a number of reviewers] very carefully, we were not always able to follow the advice of our reviewers. For example, Hank Lazer argued eloquently for a selection of the "Language Poets," but we were not persuaded that they would be taught by most users of the anthology. We could be wrong, and we would certainly like to hear from others on that subject, among others." (xlvii) Well, there are some noteworthy and pleasing additions to the 3rd edition of the Heath. For example, there is now a new section, "Louis Zukofsky, Charles Reznikoff, and Objectivist Poetry." Though the blurb in the latest Heath Newsletter makes this claim: "The offerings of language poets has been enriched by a new section, 'Louis Zukofsky, Charles Reznikoff, and Objectivist Poetry." There is also a new selection from Theresa Hak Kyung Cha's _DICTEE_ and selections from Gloria Anzaldua's Borderlands/La Frontera. I would encourage Poetics persons who wish to dispute the decision to exclude the "Language Poets" to write to any or all of the following: Paul Lauter Department of English Trinity College 300 Summmit St. Hartford, CT 06106-3100 Houghton Mifflin Company College Division 222 Berkeley Street Boston, MA 02116 Heath also operates a discussion group on American Literature at t-amlit@list.cren.net To subscribe to T-AMLIT, send a message to listproc@list.cren.lit with the message subscribe T-AMLIT your name I hate to see the range of my recommendations reduced to "Language Poetry," but that does make for an interesting flashpoint in the institutionalization of contemporary poetry. I realize that for many of you, the entire issue of anthologies is of little interest. I also would point out that I have often taught from the Heath anthology, and I consider Paul Lauter a friend, though a friend with whom I have some substantial disagreements. I think that the Heath has been an important American Literature anthology, particularly the first edition. But the situation for poetry, particularly 20th century poetry in the Heath, pisses me off. Or at least that's a response after a quick glance at the "new" Heath.... Thought various ones of you might be interested. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 01:42:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Markus Foutu Subject: Re: Mackey reading at Penn that you would think of Mackeys poetry as ""Language""poetry tells us everything we might need know about the grounding of your opinion. what are they teaching you all at brown? markus ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 09:07:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: poetry reading series in San Francisco? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could someone backchannel me information about addresses, locations, and times for poetry reading series in S.F. with a "modernist and postmodernist" bent. I have a friend who just moved out there from D.C. and is still looking for information on how to find readings. Thanks. Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:19:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Perloff on Merwin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Perloff's Merwin essay in is _Poetic License_ (Northwestern 1990). A fine book all the way through, natch. ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ you a flesh or dreaming i am not, a tongue to lick alight the dark your images project, eyes looking out of darkness in that head... Daphne Marlatt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 10:41:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: poetry reading series in San Francisco? Subj: Re: Fwd: poetry reading series in San Francisco? Date: 97-11-12 10:33:06 EST From: BobHaynes To: Aviva99999 Poetry Flash (out of Berkeley) publishes a newsletter bi-monthly with reading and events around the entire Bay Area.....I don't have the address right off, but I think it's in Poets Market Bob In a message dated 97-11-12 09:59:32 EST, you write: <> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 08:35:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Puritan librarians NOT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mark Presjnar wrote (in part): > There are two records there for the book. Both very happily include > the world fuck, and the compound word it's embedded in, in several > fields of the record. Searchable fields. > Now THAT's a record I'd like to search! (Have wondered lately if Freudian slips now apply to e-mail typos as well as, uh, speech). > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:58:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Puritan librarians NOT In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII What's the freudian slip?? "searchable field"? that's cataloger lingo.... I remain puzzled.. Mark P. On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Safdie Joseph wrote: > Mark Presjnar wrote (in part): > > > There are two records there for the book. Both very happily include > > the world fuck, and the compound word it's embedded in, in several > > fields of the record. Searchable fields. > > > Now THAT's a record I'd like to search! (Have wondered lately if > Freudian slips now apply to e-mail typos as well as, uh, speech). > > > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:50:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: poetry reading series in San Francisco? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Flash's address is PO Box 4172, Berkeley, CA 94702. By the way, I'd be very interested to see one of those ghazal/haiku hybrids of Merwin's. Would someone please post one? Annie >Poetry Flash (out of Berkeley) publishes a newsletter bi-monthly with reading >and events around the entire Bay Area.....I don't have the address right off, >but I think it's in Poets Market > >Bob > >In a message dated 97-11-12 09:59:32 EST, you write: > >< locations, and times for poetry reading series in S.F. with a "modernist > and postmodernist" bent. I have a friend who just moved out > there from D.C. and is still looking for information on how to find > readings.>> Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) Department of English Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: quote for the day In-Reply-To: henry gould "quote for the day" (Nov 11, 5:47pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 11, 5:47pm, henry gould wrote: > Subject: quote for the day > "The suggestion that the artist's perception of the world is more complex and > intricate than that of the audience (NOT TO MENTION THAT OF HIS CREATIVE > FOREBEARS) [note: "bears" - ed.] is ultimately undemocratic and unconvincing.. > . The proposition that the artist feels, comprehends and expresses something > unattainable by the ordinary person is no more convincing than the suggestion > that the artist's physical pain, hunger, and sexual satisfaction are more > intense than those of a commoner. [He's been reading his elizabethans - ed.] > True art is always democratic precisely because there is no denominator more > common, whether in society or history, than the sense that reality is > imperfect and that a better alternative should be sought." > - Joseph Brodsky, Poet Laureate of the US [ret.], veteran of soviet politics, > Everybody's Favorite Reactionary, and the Farther from his Country > [p.s. happy Veteran's Day] > > This little paragraph, beautifully round and perfect, should convince every > listreader of the particular glory of Russian vodka-conversation culture > and its superiority to every other discourse. For me this > paragraph is only equalled by the sentence in Brodsky's essay "Flight from > Byzantium" in which he says [to paraphrase] "Constantine was, in a sense, > the first Crusader." [ed. note: historians generally agree it was the > Crusades that finally destroyed the Byzantine empire]. - Henry Gould >-- End of excerpt from henry gould Fine egalitarian sentiments those are from Joseph Brodsky. Fine versifier though he was, but I wonder if he meant this with every person he met, every baby he kissed. As much as I hate elitism, I tend to be skeptical of populism, which leads to (or is) just another manifestation of social realism. The problem here is his "true art is always democratic." Problematic in a democracy(?) where ideas and criticism are shunned at large, and where there has been a systematic dumbing-down of it's citizenry for decades now. For him to say undemocratic is paramount to saying unpopular. The suggestion that the artist's perception of the world is more complex and intricate than that of the audience may well be true and convincing, but only because it happens to be more developed at that time. More accurately, the artist is more narrowly focused or tuned in to a particular idea than is most of the audience (depending on the audience). Like it or not, look at how unavoidable and essential specialization is today. I do agree though with Brodsky when he speaks against what is thought to be unattainable or incomprehensible by the "ordinary person." The question is where each of us is NOW; a sober, self-assay is required by the individual here. Henry, as much as I would like to partake right now in Russian vodka-conversation, I'm not convinced of its superiority to EVERY other discourse except theory. Allow me to add that there is no denominator more common, whether in society or history, than the sense of death, and that a better alternative should be sought. Death is a subset of reality sure, but a small space in time exists for a reality/non-reality called poetry and science :- ). Regards, William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:06:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: quote for the day In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:16:58 -0500 from I don't think you can fault Brodsky's statement because at the present time the U.S. is not fulfilling its own democratic principles. Democracy is not simply a U.S. product or token in an ideological-historical (i.e. east/west or cold war) game. Also I'm confused where you say Brodsky suggests that the artist's vision is inherently more complex, etc. I thought Brodsky was saying the opposite. I think Brodsky is linking art & democracy because they are both active assertions of shared freedom, one predominantly political, the other aesthetic. The fact that forces in the US & the west use the term "freedom" to support forms of economic slavery & inequality, again, doesn't belie his statement. You raise the question, though - what happens to the "democratic" character of art in an age of very spongy political democracy? (or is that an accurate characterization of the political climate?) Does the following equation apply: art/entertainment = citizenship/idiocy? Only in a dangerously simplified mathematical State, probably. But doesn't art offer, if not clarification, the democratic invitation to participate in complexity? Moral & aesthetic? Along with the freedom to turn down the invitation or even turn it upside down. That's the power in the artist's hand. I was just kiddin' about the vodka-superiority argument. (or half- kidding). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:29:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Israel Subject: Finding the Islands Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [ was, Re: poetry reading series in San Francisco? ] Annie Finch writes, << By the way, I'd be very interested to see one of those ghazal/haiku hybrids of Merwin's. Would someone please post one? >> Here are a scant couple verses, fetched from memory -- ______________________ The earth is bleeding into the sea far out we look away one side of the heart is dark ______________________ As the ant knows where the honey is I know the way to you ______________________ In referring to a (sort of) melding of haiku and ghazal in Merwin's work, I was speaking specifically of the form he developed for himself in or around the 70s -- issued in *Finding the Islands* (North Point Press). Someone w/ *Finding the Islands" on hand might care to share a complete poem (I mean, one of the shorter ones) -- so that the sense of the individual verses within the whole might be more apparent. Biblio-note: Not sure if that volume is still being kept in print (by Random House, which picked up some of the North Point books after the latter press folded), -- but there are *some* of those poems included (under title "Feathers From the Hill") in the newly issued *Flower & Hand* (Copper Canyon Press). This book follows up Copper Canyon's re-publishing effort for Merwin's work (as the out-of-print books selected from in *F&H* are a few vols that appeared subsequent to those included in Merwin's *The Second Four Books*, also from Copper Canyon). To chut to the case, till I get my bookshelves assembled, it's uncertain if I'll be able to find either *Finding the Islands* or get my hands on *Flower & Hand* -- meanwhile, those 2 stanzas seem to be the only ones I'm able to dredge from memory. All stanzas are in three lines. The poems consist of a string of such, of indeterminate (or not-predetermined) number, -- the length for a particular poem varying considerably. As you might know, one characteristic of the *ghazal* form (in Persian and Urdu) is the fragmentary nature of the peom -- that is, not only is there no requirement that there be an explicit line of continuity from couplet to couplet (all ghazals being written as strings of couplets), but there is (to generalize) an anticipation that each couplet will stand on its own, in terms of subject & image etc. -- that is, the norm is somewhat *away* from overt continuity. Still, there's a strong link in the prosody (and thematics) -- including the rrequisite repetition of a key phrase at the end of the 2nd line (and with a feminine rhyme including said phrase). That sort of thing is *not* done in Merwin's verses (nor by many translators of ghazals); Merwin's FTI poems do, though, typically have a manner of loosened continuity (stanaza to stanza) that reminds me of the freedom (in that regard) typical of the ghazal, and also reminds of a somewhat similar ranginess in Japanese "linked" verse forms. My notion of an influence of the ghazal on the *FTI* poems is partly based on a comment Merwin makes (as quoted in the intro to Aijaz Ahmad's volume (published I think around the early 70s? by Columbia U. Press, and long out of print, sorry to say) *Ghazals of Ghalib*) to the effect that he was particularly happy to discover the approach of the *ghazal* (as I've tried to describe above) -- the way in which each verse has a kind of autonomy and yet some sense of connection with the whole -- the pearls-in-a-strand manner of that poetic tradition & form. Merwin remarked that this seemed in line with (or helpful egarding) experiments he was working with at that point -- said work being, it seems clear, the *FTI* poems. More than his comment, the work itself strikes me as interestingly reminiscent of east asian poetries as well as ghazal poetry. (I'm not aware that anyone has heretofore broached such comparison per se.) lotta talk for 2 verses, sorry I don't remember more (or have book at beck) -- d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 11:56:07 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: poetry reading series in San Francisco? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Poetry Flash (out of Berkeley) publishes a newsletter bi-monthly with reading > and events around the entire Bay Area.....I don't have the address right off, > but I think it's in Poets Market > > Bob Poetry Flash 1450 Fourth Street #4 Berkeley, CA 94710 Subscription $16 one year, bimonthly *PACKED* with poetry events info for Bay Area and other parts Also poet interviews and articles 44 pages/newsprint Layne http://www.sonic.net/layne A Quiet Place ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: quote for the day In-Reply-To: henry "Re: quote for the day" (Nov 12, 1:06pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 12, 1:06pm, henry wrote: > Subject: Re: quote for the day > I don't think you can fault Brodsky's statement because at the present > time the U.S. is not fulfilling its own democratic principles. Democracy > is not simply a U.S. product or token in an ideological-historical > (i.e. east/west or cold war) game. I don't fault Brodsky for saying these things (they are wonderful IDEAS), rather I simply remain somewhat skeptical regarding their implications in the present. I may have sounded a bit reactionary (which shouldn't surprise), but I see myself somewhere in the middle here. That democracy is not a U.S. product is certain. However, one could understandably take the democratic system in which these statements were made as his audience, and given his poet laureate position (though I don't know if this was written when he held that chair), that would make it all the more plausible. And given human behavior such as it is in this imperfect reality, I believe that I would still take exception to the implications in his statements knowing what could be publicly made of them in anyone's democracy. This even though I understand and respect him when he speaks of the hope that "a better alternative should be sought" for our imperfect reality. > Also I'm confused where you say > Brodsky suggests that the artist's vision is inherently more complex, > etc. I thought Brodsky was saying the opposite. I thought so too, but didn't perhaps make it clear. I did not mean to say that Brodsky suggested that, but that I suggest that. I was suggesting that it may actually be true for a given audience and the myriad of specific cases that can arise in the present moment whenever that is. > I think Brodsky is > linking art & democracy because they are both active assertions of > shared freedom, one predominantly political, the other aesthetic. > The fact that forces in the US & the west use the term "freedom" > to support forms of economic slavery & inequality, again, doesn't > belie his statement. You raise the question, though - what happens > to the "democratic" character of art in an age of very spongy > political democracy? (or is that an accurate characterization > of the political climate?) Although the question of democratic character of art in an age of very spongy political democracy is interesting and applicable here, it is not really where I wanted to be in this. This is an old battleground really: art and the public, and it is unpopular to say it, but the masses may be spongy. Sartre speaks a good deal about this in _Literature and Existentialism_. The disappearing Bourgeois and all that. Jose Ortega y Gasset does a great job on it in _Man and Crisis_. > Does the following equation apply: > art/entertainment = citizenship/idiocy? Only in a dangerously > simplified mathematical State, probably. But doesn't art offer, > if not clarification, the democratic invitation to participate > in complexity? Moral & aesthetic? Along with the freedom to > turn down the invitation or even turn it upside down. That's the > power in the artist's hand. I agree completely with you that art offers the democratic invitation to participate in complexity, in obscurity, and whatever else the artist cooks up. This kind of interaction could be be ideal if the artist is also free, and fatal if he is not. Surely then it must follow that art offers the freedom (to the public I assume) to turn down the invitation or turn it upside down. I believe this is where the problem is (for me anyway) since the public has largely rejected complexity in this century with its accusations of obscurity, hermeticism, etc. The obscurity isn't there necessarily for its own sake. I don't buy the excuses that a reasonably well educated public gives for rejecting or condemning the art and literature of whichever part of this century simply because they have opted out in favor of other pastimes and forms of entertainment without giving it some time. The populist solution is to make the work palatable and easy for whomever and then it will be acceptable. That is the part of the equation that I cannot abide by. William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 13:05:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: revising the MLA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've just discovered that the MLA program has left out two of the three papers on the first of the panels titled "Does Modernity Have A Future?" -- I am not the only speaker on that panel -- the other papers are as follows: Jani Scandura -- U of Michigan "A Geography of Depression" Damon Marcel DeCoste -- U of Regina "When Our Future Is Our Past" so . . . any of you heading for Toronto at MLA time, please note this -- It should be a fun discussion ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 12:49:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Finding the Islands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's one. *** Dark Side If I were to talk of you how would anyone know what the words meant ________ you walk on a black road brown water running beside you eyes staring and the night coming with dark clouds ________ you smile standing in the green waves in the sunlight with your hands in your dark wet hair ________ some of what you say to me I forget but I remember you saying it in the dark ________ always I want you to say more ________ I see the back of the mirror you hold up to the light ________ I watch you open your eyes wider and wider into the mirror ________ you stand beside me when we havejust dried each other ________ you breathe above my ear you call out to me from that close ________ I hear your bare step on the bare floor when I hold your dark feet in my hands ________ the earth is bleeding into the sea far out we look away one side of the heart is dark W.S. Merwin. from _Finding_the_Islands_ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:17:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hg Subject: Re: quote for the day In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:54:32 -0500 from You raise some issues that have been around awhile(!) & can't be wished away. But I think you're melding together "democracy - masses - public opinion", and assuming too much in the process. Again, I think Brodsky was connecting the process of democracy - whereby some individuals get together & decide they will govern themselves, rather than be governed - and the process of art, whereby some individuals get together & share creative works. It happens on a field of free equality; that's it. He's not saying "good art can be evaluated democratically" (by a process of compromise & consensus?), or "good art must be popular". He's saying art expresses human experience, rather than enlightening it or reforming it or refining it "from above". In this he is going back to Mandelstam, and Akhmatova, as he does constantly in essay after essay. He is one of the Petersburg poets, a close stream. & one of the standards of their Acmeism (as against Symbolism) is that the artist is like everybody else. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:00:54 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Finding the Islands MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Aijaz Ahmad's volume > (published I think around the early 70s? by Columbia U. Press, and long out > of print, sorry to say) *Ghazals of Ghalib*) A collection of 41 of Ghalib's Ghazals can be found at "http://handel.pacific.net.sg/~loudon/ghalib.htm". How's your Urdu? Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:15:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Acmeists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The poet is just like everybody else, only more so ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:30:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Acmeists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit re: >The poet is just like everybody else, only more so I think this discussion has emigrated to a strange, attenuated country. I thought poetry had something to do with language. The above statement seems to suggest that it is concerned with an intensified everybodyness. Even if we stretched that out to cover everybody's use of language, we'd be stretching. We could just as easily say "The engineer is just like everybody else, only more so" or "The tobacco company executive is just like everybody else, only more so". See, it pretty well fits everybody, and in each case it takes on its own slant. Am I missing something? Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:52:38 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: quote for the day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Burmeister wrote: >the public has largely rejected complexity in this century with its >accusations of obscurity, hermeticism, etc. The obscurity isn't there >necessarily for its own sake. I don't buy the excuses that a reasonably well >educated public gives for rejecting or condemning the art and literature of >whichever part of this century simply because they have opted out in favor >of other pastimes and forms of entertainment without giving it some time. > The populist solution is to make the work palatable and easy for whomever >and then it will be acceptable. That is the part of the equation that I cannot >abide by. Is it the obscurity that people object to or that the material is based upon cultural assumptions they do not ascribe to? The audience's feeling of obscurity would be the same, but the causes and solutions would vary, would they not? As a clarification: artists might create so-called obscure texts out of a deep reading of democracy, but the audience might not be interested in deep readings of democracy, and might be reading something quite different than democracy when democracy is mentioned. Furthermore, the aesthetic that led to the so-called obscure text might be justifiable, but will not be read properly by people living in the strange land of secondary readings, where democracy does not mean democracy, and so forth. Pop culture is a code, too, as is art. As a digression: would it be possible to sidestep this problem by using a sophisticated aesthetic to manipulate the icons of pop culture, but not for the purposes of pop culture? Regards, Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 15:26:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Re: Acmeists Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:30 PM 11/12/97 -0700, you wrote: >re: > >>The poet is just like everybody else, only more so > >I think this discussion has emigrated to a strange, attenuated country. > >I thought poetry had something to do with language. > >The above statement seems to suggest that it is concerned with an >intensified everybodyness. Even if we stretched that out to cover >everybody's use of language, we'd be stretching. > >We could just as easily say "The engineer is just like everybody else, only >more so" or "The tobacco company executive is just like everybody else, >only more so". See, it pretty well fits everybody, and in each case it >takes on its own slant. > >Am I missing something? > >Harold Rhenisch >rhenisch@web-trek.net > Harold: If you missed something, it was the quote to which I was responding -- "I thought poetry had something to do with language." --so did everybody else "I think that I shall never see a poem more lovely than a tree." Couldn't we substitute "house" for "poem"? Couldn't we substitute "sea" for "tree" yours from that attenuated, far country, El Haj ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:30:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: quote for the day In-Reply-To: Harold Rhenisch "Re: quote for the day" (Nov 12, 2:52pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Is it the obscurity that people object to or that the material is based > upon cultural assumptions they do not ascribe to? The audience's feeling of > obscurity would be the same, but the causes and solutions would vary, would > they not? > > As a clarification: artists might create so-called obscure texts out of a > deep reading of democracy, but the audience might not be interested in deep > readings of democracy, and might be reading something quite different than > democracy when democracy is mentioned. Furthermore, the aesthetic that led > to the so-called obscure text might be justifiable, but will not be read > properly by people living in the strange land of secondary readings, where > democracy does not mean democracy, and so forth. Pop culture is a code, > too, as is art. > > As a digression: would it be possible to sidestep this problem by using a > sophisticated aesthetic to manipulate the icons of pop culture, but not for > the purposes of pop culture? > > Regards, > > Harold Rhenisch > rhenisch@web-trek.net >-- End of excerpt from Harold Rhenisch My guess would be that people object to what they see as obscurity for its own sake on the first order, or if they belong a different cultural group than the artist that might be the first order objection. Some may receive so-called obscure work for similar reasons. > Furthermore, the aesthetic that led > to the so-called obscure text might be justifiable, but will not be read > properly by people living in the strange land of secondary readings, where > democracy does not mean democracy, and so forth. This adds to the discussion I think, but what is meant by being read properly in the context of poetry vs say prose? > As a digression: would it be possible to sidestep this problem by using a > sophisticated aesthetic to manipulate the icons of pop culture, but not for > the purposes of pop culture? I think (if I understand you) this is postmodernism. William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:33:12 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Soko Loco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aviva Vogel wrote: > > Oh, Harold! Oh yes! A computer program that would chug away like a Nepalese > prayer wheel through the dictionary, slotting words into various syntactical > structures! Of course, we can do that endlessly ourselves, without our > laptops and CD-Rom drives, but hey! Like an anagram generator, it could be a > useful tool (or toy) to jump-start a poetry-writing session (or week or month > or year) that's faltering a bit (or a lot). Clever! Enticing! I'll be the > first customer! -Aviva Hi, Aviva. For the past few months, I've worked on a series of poems based on four-fold word squares run through an anagram generator which produces c. 500K of lines employing the 16 letters in words. I sift through them, identify the most likely, & let them mull about until they find an order I also recognize. For example [I hope this comes through the email intact!]: WORD ALOE RISE POEM I wore a prose model or a sole weird poem, a woe period morsel. I seldom wore a rope. I led a morose power, a wide remorse loop, or I rose, a lewd poem, a poem idle or worse. we lose a prior dome, a slow ode or empire; we despoil a Rome, or deplore a wise room. more power is a dole. desire me, a poor owl. Daniel Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 18:32:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tristan saldana Subject: Re: Heath 3, help?! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Hank Lazer wrote: > But the situation for poetry, particularly 20th century poetry in the > Heath, pisses me off. Amen. The situation for poetry pisses me off too, Heath or no Heath. Tristan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:46:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: Puritan librarians NOT In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think he is referring to the "world fuck." Which is a fuck to beckon with. On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Mark Prejsnar wrote: > What's the freudian slip?? > > "searchable field"? that's cataloger lingo.... > > I remain puzzled.. > > Mark P. > > > > On Wed, 12 Nov 1997, Safdie Joseph wrote: > > > Mark Presjnar wrote (in part): > > > > > There are two records there for the book. Both very happily include > > > the world fuck, and the compound word it's embedded in, in several > > > fields of the record. Searchable fields. > > > > > Now THAT's a record I'd like to search! (Have wondered lately if > > Freudian slips now apply to e-mail typos as well as, uh, speech). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:40:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: tristan saldana Subject: Re: Heath 3, help?! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 11 Nov 1997, Hank Lazer wrote: > Hank Lazer argued eloquently for a selection of the "Language Poets," > but we were not persuaded that they would be taught by most users of the > anthology. While the Heath anthologists may not have been persuaded that the "Language Poets" _would_ be taught by most "users" of the anthology, they just _gauranteed_ that they would not be taught by excluding them. Tristan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 00:26:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Acmeists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Harold Rhenisch writes, > re: > > >The poet is just like everybody else, only more so > > I think this discussion has emigrated to a strange, attenuated > country. > > I thought poetry had something to do with language. > > The above statement seems to suggest that it is concerned with an > intensified everybodyness. Even if we stretched that out to cover > everybody's use of language, we'd be stretching. yes & no -- how's this for one poss. interpretive reading of the sentence: [What] the poet [expresses] is just like [what] everybody else [expresses], only more so the relationship between what is, and what is said, is arguably relevant to just about any poetics worth its seasalt -- poets being in the biz of exploring that, they may sometimes give it voice more acutely -- to the extent that what-one-is is (so far as writing goes) evidenced by the written, ergo, the poet may well evidence it more so, eh? whether the poet really IS more so, or whether the being more so is simply more evident, is a worthy enough question, maybe -- but sometimes, in some circumstances, it might be that the focus on & attention to these problematics may acutize [new word?] the being, or at least seem to so do, hmm? . . . a few thoughts on that d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 21:36:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: <199711130505.VAA17252@leland.Stanford.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One of the great literary men/women of our time died today: James Laughlin. Many on this list whose work he published and who cherished his own poetry, memoirs, and essays, this is a sad, sad, day. I'm in Indiana doing a residency (Patten Lectures) and can't write at normal speed, but I'm sure there will be more material coming in from Eliot Weinberger or Jerome Rothenberg etc. etc. I just wanted people to know. Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 22:21:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: acme Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" each night is dark, but tonight is darker as if the word essence had meaning a lucky sentence might intensify then again, each night is dark how tell one from the next none is so capable ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:31:09 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: democracy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hg wrote | Again, I think Brodsky | was connecting the process of democracy - whereby some individuals | get together & decide they will govern themselves, rather than be | governed - - that's *anarchy - wch we are not allowed rather than *democracy - wch we have not got ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:20:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Reading series in Boston? Have yet to see on the List any announcements for exp. poetry readings in Boston. Does anyone know of any that are upcoming? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:03:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: DIGEST re Brodsky Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Wasn't Brodsky simply countering the Romantic and post-R notion of poet-as-seer/shaman/bodhisattva/O Great One? Susan Wheeler wheeler@is.nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:00:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: Acmeists In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:15:12 -0800 from On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:15:12 -0800 Aldon Nielsen said: >The poet is just like everybody else, only more so A true Acmeist position. I should have qualified previous post by noting that the Acmeist polemic with the Symbolists, in which Gumilov, Mandelstam & others took the approach that the artist was not an exalted priestly personage but an ordinary earthbound creature, was tempered on both sides of the debate by the Petersburgian hauteur, the respect for cultural tradition, the aristocracy of the intelligentsia... a very different animal from what we understand to be "populism". - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:09:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:31:09 -0000 from >hg wrote > >| Again, I think Brodsky >| was connecting the process of democracy - whereby some individuals >| get together & decide they will govern themselves, rather than be >| governed - > >- that's *anarchy - wch we are not allowed >rather than *democracy - wch we have not got I was implying that the individuals so inclined would establish a representative government of not particularly un-venal well-meaning buddy-system cousins such as we have here in Grand Fenwick, otherwise known as Little Rhody. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:13:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jena Osman Subject: visual poetry on the internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For a workshop in visual poetry: I'm looking for good examples of visual poetry on the internet. I'm already familiar with the amazing ubuweb site. Please send URL's of other favorites. Thanks, Jena Osman josman@acad.ursinus.edu ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:12:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: DIGEST re Brodsky In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:03:51 -0500 from On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:03:51 -0500 Susan Wheeler said: >Wasn't Brodsky simply countering the Romantic and post-R notion of >poet-as-seer/shaman/bodhisattva/O Great One? > Yes - this is part of what the Acmeist "program" involved. But it's sloppy of me to keep calling Brodsky an "acmeist", a tenuous "movement" back at the turn of the other century. He may have found a closer model for the style he was after in Auden: the anti-heroic, the everyday human-humane. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 06:01:52 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: acme MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > > each night is dark, but tonight is darker > > as if the word essence had meaning > > a lucky sentence might intensify > > then again, each night is dark > > how tell one from the next > > none is so capable love that last line L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:22:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Visual poetry You might want to check out: 1. Po'Fly Electro-MATIC language~arts at: http://members.aol.com/poflye/pofly.htm 2. Postypographika at: http://postypogaphika.com 3. Grist-On-Line at: http://www.thing.net?/~grist Also, while it is often not *exactly* visual poetry, *Artforum* magazine often lists relevant websites in Mark van de Walle's column; check out the Jan '97 issue -- particularly interesting are: 1. 100CC at: http://www.jodi.org/100cc/index.html 2. The Surrealism Server at: http://pharmdec.wustl.edu/juju/surr/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 09:28:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Visual poetry typo Just caught a typo in my previous message; the correct web address for Po'Fly is: http:// members.aol.com/poflye/poflye.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:46:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:36 PM -0800 11/12/97, Marjorie Perloff wrote: >One of the great literary men/women of our time died today: James >Laughlin. Many on this list whose work he published and who cherished his >own poetry, memoirs, and essays, this is a sad, sad, day. > >I'm in Indiana doing a residency (Patten Lectures) and can't write at >normal speed, but I'm sure there will be more material coming in from >Eliot Weinberger or Jerome Rothenberg etc. etc. I just wanted people to >know. > >Marjorie Perloff thanks for the news marjorie; an era is in transformation; what will happen now? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 08:05:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: thought for the day Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Henry Gould suggests of Brodky: " It happens on a field of free equality; that's it. He's not saying "good art can be evaluated democratically" (by a process of compromise & consensus?), or "good art must be popular". He's saying art expresses human experience, rather than enlightening it or reforming it or refining it "from above". In this he is going back to Mandelstam, and Akhmatova, as he does constantly in essay after essay. He is one of the Petersburg poets, a close stream. & one of the standards of their Acmeism (as against Symbolism) is that the artist is like everybody else." It's the end of this that I agree with. The necessary recognition, contra Romanticism, that the artist is not superior *as a human being* but only in so far as s/he is able to create within an art. The artist is not a better person, just capable of _art_iculating the humanity, etc. s/he shares with everyone. Makes sense to me. Sometimes, of course, the complexity of that articulation (in music, painting, poetry, whatever) takes the art beyond what a great many people want to bother learning to comprehend. I guess them's the breaks... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ you a flesh or dreaming i am not, a tongue to lick alight the dark your images project, eyes looking out of darkness in that head... Daphne Marlatt ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 07:22:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: James Laughlin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As I am starting up my own press, I really look up to him. He will be missed, and for sure, remembered for his vision. ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:13:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: thought for the day In a message dated 97-11-13 10:58:14 EST, you write: This is well put. Clear. I like it. Thanks, Aviva. << The necessary recognition, contra Romanticism, that the artist is not superior *as a human being* but only in so far as s/he is able to create within an art. The artist is not a better person, just capable of _art_iculating the humanity, etc. s/he shares with everyone. Makes sense to me. Sometimes, of course, the complexity of that articulation (in music, painting, poetry, whatever) takes the art beyond what a great many people want to bother learning to comprehend. I guess them's the breaks... >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:16:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those listers who have posted. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:29:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Acmeists In-Reply-To: henry g "Re: Acmeists" (Nov 13, 8:00am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 13, 8:00am, henry g wrote: > Subject: Re: Acmeists > On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:15:12 -0800 Aldon Nielsen said: >You raise some issues that have been around awhile(!) & can't be wished >away. But I think you're melding together "democracy - masses - public >opinion", and assuming too much in the process. Again, I think Brodsky >was connecting the process of democracy - > >The poet is just like everybody else, only more so > > A true Acmeist position. I should have qualified previous post by > noting that the Acmeist polemic with the Symbolists, in which Gumilov, > Mandelstam & others took the approach that the artist was not an > exalted priestly personage but an ordinary earthbound creature, > was tempered on both sides of the debate by the Petersburgian > hauteur, the respect for cultural tradition, the aristocracy of > the intelligentsia... a very different animal from what we understand > to be "populism". - Henry G. >-- End of excerpt from henry g >Yes - this is part of what the Acmeist "program" involved. But it's >sloppy of me to keep calling Brodsky an "acmeist", a tenuous "movement" >back at the turn of the other century. He may have found a closer >model for the style he was after in Auden: the anti-heroic, the >everyday human-humane. - Henry G. Yes. It is more desirable to consider Brodsky the exile here in the Etat Unis and his declarations in the context of this end-of-century rather than the last. I don't know what is meant by the "melding together of democracy - masses - public opinion," other than perhaps an attempt on my part to discuss openly some thoughts that I had after the reading of the Brodsky quote (and in a broader, yet proper context - no assumptions necessary). It is easy to speak of ideas which are heretofore fleshless. Some quotes from Jean-Paul Sartre do a much better job than I at saying what needs to be said: "There is classicism when a society has taken on a relatively stable form and when it has been permeated with the myth of its perenniality, that is, when it confounds the present with the eternal and historicity with traditionalism, when the hierarchy of classes is such that the virtual public never exceeds the real public and when each reader is for the writer a qualified critic and a censor, when the power of the religious and political ideology is so strong and the interdictions so rigorous that in no case is there any question of discovering new countries of the mind, but only of putting into shape the commonplaces adopted by the elite in such a way that reading -- which, as we have seen, is the concrete relation between the writer and his public -- is a ceremony of recognition analogous to the bow of salutation, that is, the ceremonious affirmation that author and reader are of the same world and have the same opinions about everything." "The political triumph of the bourgeoisie which writers had so eagerly desired convulsed their condition from top to bottom and put the very essence of literature into question...There is no doubt that by identifying the cause of belles-lettres with that of political democracy they helped the bourgeoisie come to power, but by the same token they ran the risk of seeing the disappearance of the object of their demands, that is, the constant and almost the only subject of their writing." "Bourgeois art would either be a means or would not be...Its public feared nothing so much as talent, that gay and menacing madness which uncovers the disturbing roots of things by unforseeable words and which, by repeated appeals to freedom, stirs the still more disturbing roots of men. Facility sold better; it was talent in leash, turned against itself, the art of reassuring readers by harmonious and expected discourse, in a tone of good fellowship, that man and the world were quite ordinary, transparent, without surprises, without threats, and without interest." William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:36:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Maria Damon "Re: James Laughlin" (Nov 13, 8:46am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 13, 8:46am, Maria Damon wrote: > Subject: Re: James Laughlin > At 9:36 PM -0800 11/12/97, Marjorie Perloff wrote: > >One of the great literary men/women of our time died today: James > >Laughlin. Many on this list whose work he published and who cherished his > >own poetry, memoirs, and essays, this is a sad, sad, day. > > > >I'm in Indiana doing a residency (Patten Lectures) and can't write at > >normal speed, but I'm sure there will be more material coming in from > >Eliot Weinberger or Jerome Rothenberg etc. etc. I just wanted people to > >know. > > > >Marjorie Perloff > > thanks for the news marjorie; an era is in transformation; what will happen > now? >-- End of excerpt from Maria Damon James Laughlin has been a champion of literature in this century against the publishing juggernauts, and will most certainly be missed. His extremely sensitive portrayal of the late years of William Carlos Williams is indicative of his humanity, his generosity of which enough cannot be said. Sadly, William J. Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:30:15 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:16:31 -0600 from On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:16:31 -0600 Joseph Zitt said: >Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was >and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those >listers who have posted. New Directions--for starters. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:06:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: JPSartre's classics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [ was, Re: Acmeists ] from William Burmeister -- > Some quotes from Jean-Paul Sartre do a much better job than I at > saying what needs to be said: > > "There is classicism when a society has taken on a relatively stable > form and when it has been permeated with the myth of its > perenniality, that is, when it confounds the present with the > eternal and historicity with traditionalism . . . >> ah, the demimonde position (the establishing gesture of an anti-establishment establishment), so classically [mot juste] expressed . . . d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 12:37:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Joseph, Not only publishing New Directions, James Laughlin is an important American lyric poet. His "Collected Poems" is about the last word in economy, as far as romance goes. |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Joseph Zitt wrote: > Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was > and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those > listers who have posted. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:24:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Acmeists In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:29:40 -0500 from On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 11:29:40 -0500 William Burmeister Prod said: >On Nov 13, 8:00am, henry g wrote: >> Subject: Re: Acmeists >> On Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:15:12 -0800 Aldon Nielsen said: >>You raise some issues that have been around awhile(!) & can't be wished >>away. But I think you're melding together "democracy - masses - public >>opinion", and assuming too much in the process. Again, I think Brodsky >>was connecting the process of democracy - > > >I don't know what is meant by the "melding together of democracy - masses - >public opinion," other than perhaps an attempt on my part to discuss openly >some thoughts that I had after the reading of the Brodsky quote (and in a >broader, yet proper context - no assumptions necessary). It is easy to speak of >ideas which are heretofore fleshless. I should have written more clearly when I accused WB of assumptions. The assumptions I was referring to involved the idea that when Brodsky connected "good art" and "democracy" he was historicizing or commenting on the relations between elite, aristocrat, or bourgois interests & the mass public. And I tried to relate the function of art & the function of democracy (self-governance) on an abstract level, which I think is what Brodsky was doing. I have no problem with WB or anyone else commenting on the realities of art, politics & the public with the advent of "bourgois democracy". The fact that the bourgois doesn't appreciate fine art or the fact that the aristocrat concieves literature as part of a fixed ritual of social hierarchy, however, undermines neither art nor democracy, despite whatever complaints both Baudelaire & Sartre may raise. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:49:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet In-Reply-To: from "Jena Osman" at Nov 13, 97 08:13:52 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit perhaps i cld make mention of the _wr-eye-tings_ scratchpad. i don't have the address for you, but i will post ASAP for the list -- unless, luigi -- you have it on hand (?) there are some amazing things happening on that scratchpad, a kind of temporal visual poetry gallery and workshop, to paraphrase luigi. on the scratchpad, pomes move, jump around, make noices make voices! all best, and happy seeing reading ! carl > For a workshop in visual poetry: I'm looking for good examples of visual > poetry on the internet. I'm already familiar with the amazing ubuweb site. > Please send URL's of other favorites. Thanks, > > Jena Osman > josman@acad.ursinus.edu > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:50:42 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: a little JB for today Poetry is stronger than the subtle fussing of french litterateurs. "I schyegol razlivatsia v tsyentre provalochnoii Ravenni." [And the goldfinch burst into song in the center of its wire Ravenna.] - J. Brodksy ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:19:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Joseph Zitt "Re: James Laughlin" (Nov 13, 10:16am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 13, 10:16am, Joseph Zitt wrote: > Subject: Re: James Laughlin > Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was > and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those > listers who have posted. >-- End of excerpt from Joseph Zitt I honestly can't say if I would be in poetry right now if not for James Laughlin and New Directions Books. I like the story Octavio Paz has in _The Other Voice_ about him, and would like to share it. "The case of American Publishing house New Directions is a notable example. James Laughlin, the son of a well-to-do family, studied at HArvard some fifty years ago. A poetry lover despite his disappointment at the professors he had, he decided to spend some time in Rapallo, where Ezra Pound was the focal point of a small group devoted to the study of poetry--the "Ezraversity," as Pound himself called his circle. After six months of sharing their experiences, Pound and Laughlin made a pact: Laughlin would become a publisher and devote himself to bringing out books by Pound, William Carlos Williams, and other poets of that time. Thus New Directions came into being. It is a house that has lasted more than half a century and accomplished two equally difficult things: refusing to become a gigantic multinational corporation, while publishing not only many valuable North American poets but also the corpus of modern European and Latin Literature. In his recent volume of delightful and intelligent prose (Recollections of a publisher, 1989), Laughlin notes that Pound recommended what books he should publish but gave no advice about how to sell them. He adds: "perhaps he didn't know or didn't care. I can't remember his exact phrase but he seemed quite content if something he had written and given to some obscure magazine reached the eyes and beans of twenty-seven readers, if they were the righr readers, the ones who would diffuse his ideas." Laughlin had the good sense not to follow all of Pound's advice: he did not publish, for instance, the eccentric economic theories of Major Clifford Hugh Douglas. But he quickly understood that the new literature, unanimously scorned by university professors and well-entrenched critics, could win a small but fervent public. It was an undertaking that went against current tastes and deliberately appealed to a minority. In a letter, Pound wrote to his young friend: "For Christs sake meditate on something I once told you: Nothing written for pay is worth anything; only what has been written against the market. There is nothing so inebriating as earning money. Big check and you think you have done something and two years later there is nothing bloody well to show for it." These lines were written in 1940. Nine years later, Pound renewed the charge: "The death of all the old staid American publishing houses would be a sign of God's favor to humanity. There are no known acts on the part of these firms that ever favored living writers or literature." William J. Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 13:28:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: James Laughlin Comments: To: Keith Tuma MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN James Laughlin was heir to an immense Pennsylvania steel fortune. He was also a poet and lover of literature. It's fair to say he did as much for American poetry in this century as anyone - publishing, and keeping in print, Pound, Williams, HD, Henry Miller, Kenneth Patchen - the list goes on forever. The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. The rest is history, as they say. And fortunately, Laughlin disregarded Pound's advice about poetry. He kept at it, producing several books of spare, lyrically direct poems that were delicate without being precious. His death is indeed a great loss. American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by keeping faith with his committment to making it new. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Keith Tuma To: POETICS Subject: Re: James Laughlin Date: Thursday, November 13, 1997 1:08PM On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 10:16:31 -0600 Joseph Zitt said: >Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was >and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those >listers who have posted. New Directions--for starters. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:38:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: JPSartre's classics In-Reply-To: "David R. Israel" "JPSartre's classics" (Nov 13, 1:06pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 13, 1:06pm, David R. Israel wrote: > Subject: JPSartre's classics > [ was, Re: Acmeists ] > > from William Burmeister -- > > > Some quotes from Jean-Paul Sartre do a much better job than I at > > saying what needs to be said: > > > > "There is classicism when a society has taken on a relatively stable > > form and when it has been permeated with the myth of its > > perenniality, that is, when it confounds the present with the > > eternal and historicity with traditionalism . . . >> > > ah, the demimonde position (the establishing gesture of an > anti-establishment establishment), so classically [mot juste] > expressed . . . > > d.i. >-- End of excerpt from David R. Israel ah, the everything eventually becomes gesture gesture. I suppose his writing is classic now: God knows how old it is. Wilhelm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:04:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Laughlin MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII "Catullus is my master" begins the poem "Technical Notes" placed in the opening section of Laughlin's Collected Poems. For me, Laughlin is a rare master of that daily ceremony in which our vulgarity is wedded to the austerity of hope. Laughlin would probably want to be remembered as a love poet, which is an honorable simplification, but a simplification nonetheless. He also wrote much about other aspirations, and the facts which check them. And in all manner of lines: short, long, American, French, careful, carefree. And his line-breaks across words is a lasting example of deft construction, in his hands a blatant affirmation of craft that is neither precious nor crass. As in these poems about death: "Write on My Tomb" that all I learned in books and from the muses I've ta- ken with me but my rich pos- sessions I have left behind *** "I Have Heard" the misuse of the word hope- fully spread through the lin- guistic landscape with the steady relentless thrust of lava from a volcano on here one there at first but now everywhere even senators & professors hopefully post mortem meam I'll not end up in a hell where undoubtfully everyone will be saying it. *** Through the black and the white may the brown and the green and the pink always break. Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:12:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Acmeists In-Reply-To: henry "Re: Acmeists" (Nov 13, 1:24pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > I should have written more clearly when I accused WB of assumptions. > The assumptions I was referring to involved the idea that when Brodsky > connected "good art" and "democracy" he was historicizing or > commenting on the relations between elite, aristocrat, or bourgois > interests & the mass public. And I tried to relate the function of > art & the function of democracy (self-governance) on an abstract level, > which I think is what Brodsky was doing. I have no problem with > WB or anyone else commenting on the realities of art, politics > & the public with the advent of "bourgois democracy". The fact that > the bourgois doesn't appreciate fine art or the fact that the > aristocrat concieves literature as part of a fixed ritual of social > hierarchy, however, undermines neither art nor democracy, despite > whatever complaints both Baudelaire & Sartre may raise. - Henry Gould >-- End of excerpt from henry Fair enough Henry and well taken. And so fare thee well, thou never shall hear from herald again. - Master William Sheakespearemeister ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:43:00 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Maria Damon (Maria Damon)" Subject: watten barrage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" just read watten's bride of the assembly line, magnifique/ i don't have such a stake in the grenier/coolidge discussion, but very taken with initial discussion of context and the avantgarde. refreshing, true, and yay! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:07:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >perhaps i cld make mention of the _wr-eye-tings_ scratchpad. i don't have >the address for you, but i will post ASAP for the list -- unless, luigi >-- you have it on hand (?) http://www.burningpress.org/wreyeting/ > >there are some amazing things happening on that scratchpad, a kind of >temporal visual poetry gallery and workshop... > >> For a workshop in visual poetry: I'm looking for good examples of visual >> poetry on the internet. I'm already familiar with the amazing ubuweb site. >> Please send URL's of other favorites. Thanks, >> >> Jena Osman >> josman@acad.ursinus.edu >> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:21:41 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Karl Young's Light & Dust site is amazinger. http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/lighthom.htm And his links will get you to other excellent sites, like Luigi-Bob Drake's, whose URL I can't find. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:56:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: Re: James Laughlin -Reply Comments: To: burmeist@PLHP002.COMM.MOT.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>> William Burmeister Prod 11/13/97 02:19pm >>> On Nov 13, 10:16am, Joseph Zitt wrote: > Subject: Re: James Laughlin > Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was > and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those > listers who have posted. >-- End of excerpt from Joseph Zitt here is small obituary running in pubishers weekly of james laughlin. surely, more expansive notices will be running in newspapers tomorrow: ObituaryJames Laughlin, founder of New Directions, author, poet and a literary visionary who published the bulk of this century's most distinguished experimental writers, died at his home in Norfolk, Ct. of complications from a stroke Nov. 12. He was 83.By the time Laughlin graduated from Harvard University in 1939, he had already begun publishing the first of his New Directions anthologies in 1936 introducing the early work of such writers as William Saroyan, Delmore Schwartz, Celine, James Agee, Bertolt Brecht and Denise levertov and many others. By the age of 18 he had published his own short stories and poetry in the Atlantic Monthly. Not long after the New Direction anthology series was launched Laughlin began publishing novels, plays and poetry collections by authors of similar stature. The poetry of Tennessee Williams and Karl Shapiro first appeared in these volumes and later the poems of William Carlos Williams and Ezra Pound. During the late 1930s and 1940s Laughlin published unprecendented translations of older, influential European writers and is credited with reviving interest in E.M. Forster and Kafka. The list goes on: He published Henry Miller's idiosyncratic essays and travel books and was the first to print James Joyce's Stephen Hero; brought Gertrude Stein; Nathanael West and Herman Hesse back into print; and published Vladimir's Nabokov's second novel, The Real Life of Sebastian Knight in 1941. None of this has gone unnoticed and Laughlin's vision has been well honored. Besides numeous honory degrees he has received commendations by PEN, the American Academy of Arts and letters , The Carey Thomas Award, The French Jean Malrieu prize for poetry in translation, The Robert Frost Medal, the Curtis Benjamin Award for Creative Publishing and many, many other honors. Laughlin has published numerous volumes of his own poetry, essays and stories and New Directions will publish The Love Poems this fall and he has three forthcoming books due from Zoland Books, Aperture and Turkey press. W.W. Norton will also publish a series of scholarly volumes of his correspondence with various New Directions authors. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 16:57:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Heath 3, help?! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=unknown-8bit Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In a message dated 97-11-13 00:28:45 EST, you write: >While the Heath anthologists may not have been persuaded that the >"Language Poets" _would_ be taught by most "users" of the anthology, they >just _gauranteed_ that they would not be taught by excluding them. I’m not certain it’s all so dire. The Heath is direct competitor of the venerable Norton anthology, is it not? The Norton (4th Ed) has Michael Palmer (not really a Language poet) and Edward Kamau Braithwaite (who broadens the political & multi-cultural look of the Norton contents page). But little else in the Norton could be classified as language, alternative, EXP, neoBeat, postmod, etc. Fortunately there are other anthologies that a widely-read teacher could press into service side-by-side or as alternative to the Health/Norton "evil empire." Like Sun & Moon’s Other Side of the Century, or Potes & Poets’ Art of Practice, and Norton’s other anthology Post Modern Am. Poetry edited by Paul Hoover. I applaud Hank Lazer for trying to bring down the leather-bound walls of the Heath, but success would mean assimilation and thus brings with it other problems: Namely the names. Who would get in and who wouldn’t? Silliman, Hejinian, Bernstein, Armantrout, Watten, Scalapino, Andrews, et al. And since Language (however it is defined & explained) continues to be a dynamic force, a wave that hasn’t yet crashed and dissipated upon the beach of literary history, would not such recognition by the Heath in some way break the movement’s natural course? Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:06:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Soko Loco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Daniel Zimmerman wrote, > For the past few months, I've worked on a series of poems based on > four-fold word squares run through an anagram generator which > produces c. 500K of lines employing the 16 letters in words. I sift > through them, identify the most likely, & let them mull about until > they find an order I also recognize. For example [I hope this comes > through the email intact!]: > > WORD > ALOE > RISE > POEM > > > I wore a prose model > or a sole weird poem, > a woe period morsel. > I seldom wore a rope. > I led a morose power, > a wide remorse loop, > or I rose, a lewd poem, > a poem idle or worse. > we lose a prior dome, > a slow ode or empire; > we despoil a Rome, or > deplore a wise room. > more power is a dole. > desire me, a poor owl. yep, it came thru fine -- (& proves more interesting in the instance than I might've expected lacking the exempli). Thinking of Terry Riley's composition *In C*, I find myself wondering about computer-generated textual-composition possibilities of adding letters incrementally -- (i.e., rather than always 16, if it were to ascend -- e.g., from 4 to 6 to 8 etc.) -- a cumulative procedure of growing complexity -- so you get circa 500,000 sentences (or lines) out of every run of four 4-letter words, hmm -- have you ever started with words that themselves comprise a "found phrase" of some sort? -- it would then seem a scramble from the immediate-observed to every possible recombination of same -- these but passing thoughts, occasioned by novel procedure of a sort I'd not considered -- look forward to seeing some more, whenever -- d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:24:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: quote for the day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Burmeister wrote: >My guess would be that people object to what they see as obscurity for its >own sake on the first order, or if they belong a different cultural group than >the artist that might be the first order objection. Some may receive so- >called obscure work for similar reasons. My concern was that we have such a split between aesthetic culture (of varying kinds) and pop culture (of varying kinds) that the two are not speaking to each other and people react to that. Hence my second comment: > Furthermore, the aesthetic that led > to the so-called obscure text might be justifiable, but will not be read > properly by people living in the strange land of secondary readings, where > democracy does not mean democracy, and so forth. to which William responded: >This adds to the discussion I think, but what is meant by being read properly >in the context of poetry vs say prose? I was trying to work out the idea that if people were responding to the trace of a foreign aesthetic, or the way in which it manifested itself within the parameters of their receiving technology (or culture), very little communication is going to take place: what will be communicated will be only a series of traces, which seem to me to be terribly short-lived and unstable isotopes. Conservative poetry is a foreign aesthetic to most people. Obscure poetry or avante-garde poetry might as well be a line of binary code. It goes farther: even conservative poets, a sympathetic audience (I would hope), are going to have a hard time reading avante-garde poetry, because they will have to re-tool to do so. I think as readers we tend to set up a receiving matrix and then are able to read texts (within certain parameters) automatically. When we shift to a different type of text (from conservative poetry to lang-po, for instance, or from Disneyland sound-bites to T.S. Eliot) we will get messed up, because we will process the signal automatically, but we will be processing it incorrectly. It will be unreadable. A reader willing to do the work will correct this, by switching to manual processing, then building up a new and more sophisticated processing system, which can eventually process the material correctly. A reader unwilling to do the work will walk away. Interesting is the idea of an aesthetic willing to work with the traces themselves. Probably need a lead suit, though. Best, Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:40:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: watten barrage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want to continue the (aborted) conversation on Watten's ILS lecture, "The Bride of the Assembly Line," which I think is one of the most important recent interventions in the debate about social possibilities of innovative writing. If Watten is right that "the avant-garde tradition of the material text -- from Gertrude Stein and Luis Zukofsky to Clark Coolidge and Lee Ann Brown -- has been misread in a way that is impoverished in terms of both language and culture" (p. 3), then a lot of commentary on language poetry and other types of innovative interventions need to be rethought. The nub of Watten's argument is a critique of unspecified "possibility": "It is, thus, claims for the possibility of form rather than the specificity of form; or the possibility of language rather than a specific use of langauge; or the possibility of critique instead of a specific politics; or the possibility of difference rather tahn a specific difference, that characterizes the current aporia of our collectively dialogic, site-specific and time-valued, manifold poetics." (p.4) It's obvious, I think, what is being talked about here. I am reminded of critical moments such as Andrew Ross's essay "The New Sentence and Commodity Form" in Nelson and Grossman's _Marxism and the Interpretation of Culture_. Somewhere in that essay (I may have the title wrong, as my copy is at home), Ross quotes a poem (his examples are almost arbitrary) and says something like (from memory now) "Finally, we get the sense that a fair deal has been struck; the labor of reading is equal to the labor of writing." This kind of claim fits well into one of the things Watten is critiquing, namely "a defunct politics satisfied to claim that the reader is 'empowered' to make meaning from material texts" (p. 3) The thing is, Ross's is a pretty sophisticated argument, with a range of reference that runs back in Marxism at least to Gramsci and in poetry to the Objectivist attention to texts as "intellectual labor." Watten and Ross share a lot of allegiances as well, and are allied in the Watten issue of _Aerial_. Still, Watten seems to be aiming at some things that are present both in the Ross essay and by extension, all over the place, especially in some academic treatments of language writing such as Linda Renfield's, and and in the prose of our own Charles Bernstein. I am especially sympathetic to Watten's critique of Bernstein's sometimes dismissive take on identity politics, which of course implicates lots of discussions that have taken place on this list: "In Bernstein's tendency toward a universalist, multinational politics of ideolectical writing, such a blindspot of collective nonidentity seems motivated in a regional politics of literary identity as much as it evidences a survival of the politics of modernist form" (Watten p. 10). There are other arguments and other wonders in Watten's essay too (the discussion of Coolidge is great, as is [from my limited knowledge] the whole riff on Stein and cars), but I thought I'd highlight these moments in the essay to maybe light a fire under the list. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:50:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: Acmeists, now ... Futurists? Poet: Artist: Intellectual ??? This is from an essay entitled "Surveillance and Spectacle in Fascist Ferrara" by Diane Yvonne Ghirardo in the book of essays, "The Education of the Architect: Historiography, Urbanism, and the Growth of Architectural Knowledge" edited by Martha Pollak. I was reading it when this thread started, and I think the thread has definitely come this way: social/political movements at the beginning of the century, the role of culture in, the role of art in.... "[Antonio] Gramsci proposed a somewhat confused distinction between what he referred to as organic intellectuals and traditional intellectuals, although they were always linked to class distinctions. The former, created by social groups in the world of economic production, have the double function of constructing homogenity and of developing awareness of the groups' social and political functions beyond the specific economic ones. Traditional intellectuals already exist in a given society, and represent historical continuity, while presenting themselves as autonomous of the dominant social group. Gramsci's important point is that both types of intellectual are defined by their activities _within_ the system of social and class relations. The traditional intellectual operates within historically formed categories which become more complex and elaborate in connection with the dominant socal group. In Gramsci's view, a new social group advancing toward dominance, such as Fascism, makes one of its chief aims the assimilation of traditional intellectuals, but also speeds up the process by producing its own organic intellectuals. In general, intellectuals serve as deputies with the function of allowing the dominant social group to maintain hegemony through the spontaneous consent of the masses. ... in the case of Fascist Italy most of the cultural activities helped sustain Fascism's power. ... " I think that the strategies of the Russian Revolutionaries vis a vis artists and intellectuals can be usefully compared and contrasted with the strategies of Italian Fascists, and the experiences of artists as well as their actual work under both regimes usefully analysed as part of this discussion. Ahkmatova reported she said, "Yes, I believe I can [describe this]." Catherine Daly cadaly@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:23:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII JamesLaughlion was the distinguised publisher of New Directions,which he started as young man from his family's fortune in steel. He went on to publish most of the great modernists (Pound, Williams, etc) and to champion progressive literature in general. I knew J fairly well in the 1980s (after he got stranded in a snowstorm and spent a weekend in Chicago with me, Paul Hoover, and a menagerie of our small children) and found him to be a very generous and witty man. The press itself was a real labor of love, as are all presses that start small. He himself would travel from town to town to sell books out of his car,and it wasn't until much later when Tennessee Williams and Herman Hesse became well-known that New Directions actually stabilized as a publishing house in terms of monetary success. But if he never made a dime, he would be remembered for championing writers before they were well-known, including WCW who was working in relative obscurity for many years. Those on the list or related to the list whom he published--Creeley, Rothenberg, McClure, Howe, Mayer, Hoover, Gander, Palmer, etc., and many poets through the small anthology "Language Poetries" can add far more. We saw the movie Gandhi with him and fed him his first bagel during that Chicago stay. We later stayed with him and his wife Anne, now also deceased,one summer in CT and enjoyed his wonderful library of ND Books and 1st editions. I'll miss him. --Maxine Chernoff On Thu, 13 Nov 1997, Joseph Zitt wrote: > Could someone fill in those of us who didn't know of him as to who he was > and what he did? He does seem to have had quite an impact on those > listers who have posted. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:42:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mary Burger Subject: Announcing Proliferation #4 issue & Contributors' Reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Proliferation #4 is now available, with work by Susan Gevirtz, Stephen Ratcliffe, Pamela Lu, Renee Gladman, Dan Bouchard, Beth Anderson, Joseph Torra, Tan Lin, Bill Lavender, Laura Moriarty, Leslie Scalapino, and more. BAY AREA CONTRIBUTORS' READING: Friday, Nov. 14, 7:30 p.m. Modern Times Bookstore Valencia St. & 20th St. San Francisco ISSUE available from: * Modern Times Bookstore * The Editors: (send check for $9.50 including postage, payable to M. Burger or C. Vitiello) Mary Burger, 1253 Hampshire St., San Francisco CA 94110 or Chris Vitiello, 2707 Farthing St., Durham NC 27704 *Small Press Distribution - coming soon! 1-800-869-7553 spd@igc.apc.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:54:06 +0000 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: James Laughlin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Coffey wrote: > here is small obituary running in pubishers weekly of james laughlin. > surely, more expansive notices will be running in newspapers tomorrow: > > Obituary James Laughlin, founder of New Directions, author, poet and a > literary visionary who published the bulk of this century's most > distinguished experimental writers, died at his home in Norfolk, Ct. of > complications from a stroke Nov. 12. He was 83. [snip] thank you Michael for finding and posting this. I posted this to the Socopoet list...didn't think you would mind. Layne ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:23:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: James Laughlin Comments: cc: Rachel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Patrick Pritchett writes -- > The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound > As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in > the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and > start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. > The rest is history, as they say. . . . though I don't have the book, am pretty sure -- a small biblio note, this -- that the title is *Ez as Wuz* [meaning, Ezra as he the was, one supposes -- "Ez" evidently being the familial nickname]. > . . . American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by > keeping faith with his committment to making it new. here here btw, re: the Poundian dictum "make it new," seems the "it" in question is antiquity's language / content -- Pound seeking to promote an Ancient Future, so to say (as when he admonished young W.S. Merwin "study root language, don't study branch language" or words to that effect) . . . so that being steeped in the old, one can then make it new . . . hat-tips to James Laughlin -- one of those sturdy, rugged, supportive presences on whom "so much depends" . . . d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:29:50 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: watten barrage In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:40:24 -0500 from On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:40:24 -0500 David Kellogg said: >I want to continue the (aborted) conversation on Watten's ILS lecture, "The >Bride of the Assembly Line," which I think is one of the most important >recent interventions in the debate about social possibilities of innovative >writing. If Watten is right that "the avant-garde tradition of the material >text -- from Gertrude Stein and Luis Zukofsky to Clark Coolidge and Lee Ann >Brown -- has been misread in a way that is impoverished in terms of both >language and culture" (p. 3), then a lot of commentary on language poetry >and other types of innovative interventions need to be rethought. > >The nub of Watten's argument is a critique of unspecified "possibility": > >"It is, thus, claims for the possibility of form rather than the specificity >of form; or the possibility of language rather than a specific use of >langauge; or the possibility of critique instead of a specific politics; or >the possibility of difference rather tahn a specific difference, that >characterizes the current aporia of our collectively dialogic, site-specific >and time-valued, manifold poetics." (p.4) > I've only skimmed Watten's essay, find it provocative, but want more time to think about it. For starters though I'm tempted to ask that these "specific" politics be named. One target here is Charles Bernstein's Emersonianism. When Barry read an early version of this paper in New Hampshire, as I recall, he spontaneously added something like "No, I am not George Lukacs." But I wonder. >It's obvious, I think, what is being talked about here. I am reminded of >critical moments such as Andrew Ross's essay "The New Sentence and Commodity >Form" in Nelson and Grossman's _Marxism and the Interpretation of Culture_. >Somewhere in that essay (I may have the title wrong, as my copy is at home), >Ross quotes a poem (his examples are almost arbitrary) and says something >like (from memory now) "Finally, we get the sense that a fair deal has been >struck; the labor of reading is equal to the labor of writing." This kind >of claim fits well into one of the things Watten is critiquing, namely "a >defunct politics satisfied to claim that the reader is 'empowered' to make >meaning from material texts" (p. 3) The thing is, Ross's is a pretty >sophisticated argument, with a range of reference that runs back in Marxism >at least to Gramsci and in poetry to the Objectivist attention to texts as >"intellectual labor." Watten and Ross share a lot of allegiances as well, >and are allied in the Watten issue of _Aerial_. Still, Watten seems to be >aiming at some things that are present both in the Ross essay and by >extension, all over the place, especially in some academic treatments of >language writing such as Linda Renfield's, and and in the prose of our own >Charles Bernstein. The critique of a discourse of a specially empowered reader in materialist poetics has been offered before and for good reason, as for instance by J. H. Prynne. But this is a critique of critical frames and rationales more than of poetic practice. > >I am especially sympathetic to Watten's critique of Bernstein's sometimes >dismissive take on identity politics, which of course implicates lots of >discussions that have taken place on this list: "In Bernstein's tendency >toward a universalist, multinational politics of ideolectical writing, such >a blindspot of collective nonidentity seems motivated in a regional politics >of literary identity as much as it evidences a survival of the politics of >modernist form" (Watten p. 10). There are other arguments and other wonders Watten's essay responds primarily to Bernstein's "Poetics of the Americas." I wonder about this claim, which seems to acknowledge its fragility in its idiom. I don't know that I'd want to talk about "motivations" in the first place, but I'm a little skeptical of the purported "universalism" located in the essay. There IS an effort to find common ground where it is rarely sought. That seems a worthwhile project to me. But "universalism" is a strong claim in reading an essay that wants to "navigate between the universalizing humanisms of internationalism and the parochialism of regionalism and nationalism" while acknowledging that "our different national and cultural circumstances are . . .marked in our poems" (3). In my cursory first gallop through Watten's essay I note that "identity politics" is called a "red herring," but here is what the CB essay says about his Emersonian poetics and "identity": "So I hope it will be apparent that while I welcome the challenge of multiculturalism as it has entered U.S. arts and education in the past decade, I continue to find many of its proponents more interested in reinforcing traditional modes of representation than allowing the heterogeneity of forms and peoples that make up the cultural diversity of the Americas to transform poetic styles and personal and group identities. Yet it is hardly surprising that static conceptions of group identity represented by authentic spokespersons continue to ride roughshod over works and individuals whose identities are complex, multiple, mixed, confused, hyperactivated, miscegenated, synthetic, mutant, forming, or virtual" (3). I leave it to you to decide whether this critique of identity politics--or more exactly a version of it--is baited with a red herring. Hank Lazer has recently mentioned the example of the Heath anthology. Now it might very well be the case that an opportunity for linking the progressive purposes of specific discourses of identity politics and the politics of difference with materialist poetics has been (so far) missed or obfuscated. But in what sense is the CB claim above demonstrably "motivated in a regional politics of literary identity"? It's the word "regional" in particular that I get stuck on. The subtext, perhaps, is that CB is ONLY competing in an aesthetic game for space in the Heath. In the end that may be, sadly, true of all of us--even those who made it in--but that would be a pretty bleak way of looking at things and it certainly reads against the program articulated by CB in the essay at hand, as if hunting an Adorno there. Thus the remark about "modernist form" perhaps--though I'll want to look again at Watten's essay before standing by that connection. One thing I am sure about--the Watten essay is an important provocation and deserving of discussion. David and Maria are right about that. I wish I had the time to do it justice, but I don't now. Maybe others will, but if it is to be discussed in its relation to the Bernstein essay it is partly a response to, I hope that folks will try to represent fairly both sides of the argument, if an argument is what we've got. Keith Tuma > > There is no mantle > and it does not descend. > > -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:41:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: bio for you In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dodie: Here's a bio for you. Anything Kevin can do to make it snappy, is fine. And, sometime after you and Kevin send those agreements back for your readings here, also send bios we can use for press releases and a flyer. thanks, charles CHARLES ALEXANDER Charles Alexander’s books of poetry include Hopeful Buildings (Chax Press, Tucson, 1990) and arc of light / dark matter (Segue Books, New York, 1992). Two chapbooks are forthcoming in winter 1998: Four Ninety Eight to Seven from Meow Press (Buffalo, New York) and Pushing Water from Standing Stones Press (Morris, Minnesota). He has also published reviews and critical essays on contemporary literature and culture. He is the founder and director of Chax Press, which was begun in Tucson, Arizona in 1984; Chax moved to Minneapolis from 1993 through 1996, and returned to Tucson in the summer of 1996. Chax is a publisher of handmade letterpress books and trade literary editions, both of which explore innovative writing and its conjunction with book forms. Through Chax Press, from 1986 to the present Alexander has organized literary readings, talks, workshops and presentations by artists. From 1993 through 1995 Alexander was executive director of Minnesota Center for Book Arts, the nation’s most comprehensive center for the arts of the book, both in terms of programs and artists’ studio facilities. As its director, Alexander completed the production of the visual/literary artists’ book Winter Book in 1995 with visual artist Tom Rose. In addition he directed educational programs and a variety of artists’ residencies, creative productions, and other works. He was the organizer and director of the 1994 symposium Art and Language: Re-Reading the Boundless Book, one of the foundational symposiums in the recent history of the book arts. From this symposium, he edited the formative collection of essays, Talking The Boundless Book: Art, Language, and the Book Arts (Minnesota Center for Book Arts, Minneapolis, 1996). Alexander has given poetry readings, lectures, and workshops throughout the country at colleges, universities, art centers, and other locations, including at the University of Alabama, the University of Arizona, the State University of New York at Buffalo, Painted Bride Arts Center in Philadelphia, Small Press Traffic in San Francisco, Canessa Gallery in San Francisco, the University of Washington, Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, Scottsdale Center for the Arts, and many more. Alexander has also performed poetry in galleries and art centers, has collaborated with musicians and dancers, and in general brings to poetry a broad sense of artistic and collaborative possibility. Poet Robert Creeley writes that Alexander’s work "hears a complex literacy of literalizing words. By means of a fencing of statements, sense is found rather than determined. The real is as thought." And, concerning his 1992 book, arc of light/dark matter, the poet and critic Ron Silliman writes, "Now Charles Alexander pushes the envelope of what is possible in writing even further, to the ends of the universe. And beyond. . . This is the most sensuous, intelligent, rewarding writing I’ve read in ages." Alexander was born in Honolulu, grew up mostly in Norman, Oklahoma, was educated at Stanford University and the University of Wisconsin-Madison, and has lived in Tucson for most of the last 14 years, including at present, with his wife Cynthia Miller, one of the premier visual artists of the American Southwest. charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://personal.riverusers.com/~chax/ :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 22:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: oh oh oh Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Very sorry that through quirks of email address-keeping and personal error, I sent a message with my bio to the entire poetics list, and not just to its intended recipient in utter embarrassment, charles alexander charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://personal.riverusers.com/~chax/ :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:31:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: loy lovers In-Reply-To: <971106143200_2070224653@mrin45.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII --- writing to wonder if anyone has any suggestions for getting a copy of a Mina Loy interview by Paul Blackburn in i think 1966, aspen, colorado- ive heard it throuhg once but no longer have access and no libraries around here can help- or any other hints towards other interesting materials - recordings of loy, eg- are greatly appreciated thanks, rachel d. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:09:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: William Matthews Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The poet William Matthews died of a heart attack the same day as Laughlin. While his poetics were not mine, he seemed like a nice enough fellow back when he was living next door to David McAleavey's Ithaca home in 1970. Ron Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:05:57 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Acmeists In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:12:26 -0500 from On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 15:12:26 -0500 William Burmeister Prod said: >Fair enough Henry and well taken. And so fare thee well, thou never shall hear >from herald again. > >- Master William Sheakespearemeister Be not confounded nor dismayed, Willy; perhaps e'en thou hast won ye "argument" , and far be it from me to tether round chit-chat wi' snappish rebukes. Thou hast thy right angles, I mine, & there be room in yon cyberfields here'bout for gabble far & wee. E'en so, I bid thee hasten with thy seconds to Mistress Bull's Tavern 3 past the hour of noon & we shall decide with steel. Go'w'b'j'etc.'it please thee. - Sir Henry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:46:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Acmeists, now ... Futurists? In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 13 Nov 1997 17:50:47 -0500 from The example of Montale could be investigated (& has been) in relation to the issues you raise (not to mention in connection with the renewed fire under the Watten/Bernstein tango). Montale was under attack for several decades variously from left and right for "hermeticism"; in his poem "Piccolo Testamente" (sp?) he renounces allegiance to either camp; in an essay he criticizes the eagerness (the professional duty) of intellectuals to take sides - or rather, he doesn't question their eagerness, but questions their claim to being what he calls "free men". I think he means in this case "free artists". David Kellogg says the Watten discussion was "aborted", and he's right: my opening salvo was never answered (because out of the frame of this discourse?). I said the provocation Watten provides (between "soft" and "hard" language poetry?) was vitiated by the apparent politicization of art on both sides; the "return to context and authorial (political) motivation" is simply a rehash in intellectually sexy terms of the PERENNIAL dilemma of poetry - an autonomous activity - in a tangled web of interests. Poetry is BOTH "poetry per se" and steeped in motivation and context, and this is absolutely nothing new. Watten has done a signal service, though, in POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 08:05:54 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher Subject: Re: watten barrage Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" me, i'll stay out of the argument, if that's what it is, suggested by the watten and bernstein pieces... i find both essays to coincide in many ways, even if the emphases differ... but to say that i found watten's discussion of norms valuable, and that i think he's on target when he identifies norms as products as opposed to "deductive schema," incl. his riff on "nonstandard norms"... this is helpful specifically b/c it suggests that something can be done about norms (e.g., do it y/ourselves), and that doing something about them may itself become, if one isn't careful and as watten indicates, oppressive... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:23:25 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: <199711140124.UAA05959@radagast.wizard.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not so explicitly... At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >Patrick Pritchett writes -- > >> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >> The rest is history, as they say. . . . > >though I don't have the book, am pretty sure -- a small biblio note, >this -- that the title is *Ez as Wuz* [meaning, Ezra as he the was, >one supposes -- "Ez" evidently being the familial nickname]. > >> . . . American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by >> keeping faith with his committment to making it new. > >here here > >btw, re: the Poundian dictum "make it new," seems the "it" in question >is antiquity's language / content -- Pound seeking to promote an Ancient >Future, so to say (as when he admonished young W.S. Merwin "study >root language, don't study branch language" or words to that effect) >. . . so that being steeped in the old, one can then make it new . . . > >hat-tips to James Laughlin -- one of those sturdy, rugged, supportive >presences on whom "so much depends" . . . > >d.i. > . > ..... > ............ > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > > david raphael israel < > >> washington d.c. << > | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) > | disrael@skgf.com (office) > ========================= > | thy centuries follow each other > | perfecting a small wild flower > | (Tagore) > //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:21:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on ftpbox.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: a little JB for today In-Reply-To: henry gould "a little JB for today" (Nov 13, 1:50pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 13, 1:50pm, henry gould wrote: > Subject: a little JB for today > Poetry is stronger than the subtle fussing of french litterateurs. Always true! > "I schyegol razlivatsia v tsyentre provalochnoii Ravenni." > > [And the goldfinch burst into song in the center of its wire Ravenna.] > > - J. Brodksy >-- End of excerpt from henry gould Ya yishoo nye ochin horosho govariyu rooski (I still don't speak Russian very well) WB ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:25:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: oh oh oh In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971113224427.007b9d00@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:44 PM -0700 11/13/97, Charles Alexander wrote: >Very sorry that through quirks of email address-keeping and personal error, >I sent a message with my bio to the entire poetics list, and not just to >its intended recipient > >in utter embarrassment, > >charles alexander > > >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://personal.riverusers.com/~chax/ :: http://alexwritdespub.com now charles, don't be embarrassed; the more we know about you the more we love you ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:31:11 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Reading If you're in or near Tuscaloosa today, there will be a free reading/book-event of some interest: 7:30 p.m., AB Theater, University of Alabama campus poet-musician-painter Jake Berry will perform sections from BRAMBU DREZI, Book 2. Assisting in the evening's events: poets Jack & Adelle Foley (Oakland, CA), Jon Berry, and Hank Lazer, 3 video monitors, photographer-musician Wayne Sides, dancers Amy Downing and Buffy Barfoot, and Rodney Thomaston and Kevin Humphrey on percussion. Y'all come down. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 09:42:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: watten barrage In-Reply-To: <199711141405.IAA17409@charlie.cns.iit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 8:05 AM -0600 11/14/97, Joe Amato/Kass Fleisher wrote: >me, i'll stay out of the argument, if that's what it is, suggested by the >watten and bernstein pieces... i find both essays to coincide in many ways, >even if the emphases differ... > >but to say that i found watten's discussion of norms valuable, and that i >think he's on target when he identifies norms as products as opposed to >"deductive schema," incl. his riff on "nonstandard norms"... this is >helpful specifically b/c it suggests that something can be done about norms >(e.g., do it y/ourselves), and that doing something about them may itself >become, if one isn't careful and as watten indicates, oppressive... > >best, > >joe one thing i like about watten's critique not of charles but of aesthetic universalism of any kind (and of course i adore charles so this is not about personalities but about ideas, lest anyone jump all over me for being disloyal to my listmaster) is precisely that; i value the eclecticism and wide embrace of, say, "ethnopoetics" but have deep problems with the ethics and politics of subsuming *certain* artifacts from "other cultures" under an umbrella of "good poetry" to the exclusion of others, because of some presumed norm (western-modernist-postmodernist) of what "good poetry" is, without any regard for what is considered powerful utterance/good poetry in the context that gave rise to that artifact or even, aesthetic considerations aside altogether, why this artifact exists in the first place, what were the circumstances of its production and how that affects our access to it, reception of it, understanding of it. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:17:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Frederick Turner's The Culture of Hope In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 8 Nov 1997 cloward@UTDALLAS.EDU wrote: > > David, excuse any heavy-handedness in my response to your post. I think > we are essentially in agreement about the dangers of any scientific > reductionism (Darwinian fundamentalism, nostalgic empiricism, > utilitarianism, what have you) that prescribes a specific type of poetry, > but I heartily disagree with your assertion that informed speculation > concerning poetry in evolutionary terms cannot tell us anything useful > about contemporary possibilities. Thanks. We may indeed be closer than it first appeared. Let me clarify. I could imagine all sorts of investigations (evolutionary and other) that might provide points of entry into various poetic imaginings. What I _don't_ think such investigations can do is provide before-the-fact pre- or proscriptions as to what poetry might do in this or that instance. I don't think evolutionary psychology can do this in any area of cultural activity (from war to lovemaking), because it is impossible to separate the biological from the cultural. Further, separating biological from cultural materials always seems to end up repeating a wheat/chaff sort of opposition that privileges the biological. Example: suppose I "discover" the biological roots of poetry, and I write material that wilfully disengages from those roots, resists them even, and call it poetry. Would that resistance disqualify calling my engagements "poetry"? Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 11:22:26 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: things happened in Providence Last night Peter Johnson and Susan Grant read at Hall Library in Cranston. Peter Johnson is an independent character from Buffalo no less (he just heard about the EPC in his home town) who edits PROSE POEM, is an example of someone with a very clear focus who manages to solicit, read & select from over 5000 prose poems a year for his mag. He gave a very tight entertaining reading of his own & others' work. Susan Grant edits an annual called the NEWPORT REVIEW; this may have been her first reading. Poetry is great as a vehicle for FREE EXPRESSION, in this it's like medicine. Among other more serious things she read a poetic epistle to one of our Rhode Island state senators, Patrick Kennedy, from a woman sitting in a "clean" laundry basket, asking why oral sex was against the law in RI. The Hall Library has just agreed to catalog Poetry Mission materials for permanent housing there, a good sign, so thank you all again who made donations to the seed collection, they will be in good hands! We hope it becomes a good resource here. Keith Waldrop also read in Providence last night, but for obvious reasons I couldn't be there. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:18:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Re: watten barrage In a message dated 11/15/97 1:48:17 AM, you wrote: >without any regard for what is considered powerful utterance/good poetry in >the context that gave rise to that artifact or even, aesthetic >considerations aside altogether, why this artifact exists in the first >place, what were the circumstances of its production and how that affects >our access to it, reception of it, understanding of it. is it possible? i.e. is it possible to understand that 'sufficiently'? that word contingent again again. in any case. or even if in one case how many more than one can one. it seems information coagulates/constellates but implicit in the questioning is the possibility of a knowledge one can attain yes? rather say, perhaps this is close to Watten-- the form is the knowledge, in its _movement_, one's experience of that movement. from XYZ of Reading: "We question a question in order to fill in its form." tho of course in bureaucratise that is exactly what one must not do, you just fill out the form, _their_ form. so perhaps looking at seriality, questioning its form, of utmost these days. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:22:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Acmeists, now ... Futurists? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ladies & gentlemen, could I trouble someone to identify the source (book? journal?) of the articles being discussed here -- one by B. Watten, one by Ch. Bernstein, evidently -- somehow I missed that info (if it were stated) -- thanks, d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 12:29:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matthew Hart Subject: Re: watten barrage In-Reply-To: <01bcf085$21c66ce0$49cc0398@DKellogg.Dukeedu> from "David Kellogg" at Nov 13, 97 05:40:24 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry to insert such a mundane point into what's a very interesting argument to lurk in, but could someone either post or backchannel the full bibliographical details of the Watten essay? I have some investment in this argument, but am loath to step forward having not read the main occasion, so to speak . . . Thank you, Matt Hart ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:50:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: watten barrage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Watten's essay is "The Bride of the Assembly Line: From Material Text to Cultural Poetics," Impercipient Lecture Series 1.8, available from Steve Evans & Jennifer Moxley, 61 East Manning Street, Providence, RI, 02906-4008. $5 for single issue, $25 for ten issues. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Hart To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 1:19 PM Subject: Re: watten barrage >Sorry to insert such a mundane point into what's a very interesting >argument to lurk in, but could someone either post or backchannel the full >bibliographical details of the Watten essay? I have some investment in >this argument, but am loath to step forward having not read the main >occasion, so to speak . . . > >Thank you, > >Matt Hart > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 14:14:15 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: What's Up in Sweden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone out there know anything about what's happening in Swedish poetry? I'll be at Lund University next year and would like to connect with the poetry community, about which I know almost nothing (though I did once read the old Swallow Press book _Contemporary Swedish Poetry_). Bob Archambeau -- Robert Archambeau Department of English Lake Forest College Lake Forest, IL 60045 http://www.lfc.edu/~archamb/ the user experiences no need of acting -Tom Raworth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:30:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: whistlers good day folks. recently the omega stations were shut down. they used to send beeps to navigators around the world. the antenna on ohahu was over a mile long and initially i thought it to be a large stretching of high tension wires strung over big big gorge on windward mountain. here's a description of the end of omega by one of those long wave nerds. Bill L . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Omega shut down! Here's a copy of my report e-mailed to a few other people and also a spectrogram made of the tape: Well, I got a nice recording of Omega's last beeps and also two nights of nice whistlers too, especially this morning, 01 October, between 1100-1330 UT. There was also some intermittant dawn chorus starting at about 1230 UT and going until after 1500 UT - I had not yet caught chorus this summer or fall until now, so I was really glad to hear some chorus even though it was not very strong, and overall a really nice 2 days of whistler listening. Many whistlers this morning (October 01) had echoes too! The whistlers seemed to be generated by fairly nearby lightning - not too local but within 1000 miles. I have found that indeed (and this is shown in a more recent book on magnetospheric physics), whistlers don't follow exact paths and congugate points AT ALL(!!!). Often, loud whistlers at any locale may be generated by lightning somewhat far away (1000-2000 miles perhaps) while more closeby lightning is NOT generating the loudest whistlers (which may be loud 1000 miles away somewhere ELSE!) Listening since mid-august has given me quite a bit of observation in this regard and countless examples on tape. I mentioned this somewhat subjectively in my VLF STORY I wrote a few years back and I'm even more sure of this. Sooo, Mexican or Montanan lightning may make LOUD California whistlers, and at the same time California lightning may make for loud whistlers in Colorado or even Kansas (to use a scenario). Certainly, there are times when nearby lightning does make for the loudest whistlers, but this is more infrequent in my observations than the scenario above. Anyway back to Omega's shutdown--I started recording at 0257 UT 9/30. I made a WWV time check at 0259 on the tape and then let it run with the WR-4b whistler receiver set to high-pass--lots of Omega into the tape recorder. At about 0259:30, Omega D (North Dakota) shut down, leaving Omega-C Hawaii going for about 2-3 more of its cycles. About 0300 (or within a few seconds) and after its two 11.8 kHz beeps, Omega C went off. Both D and C did not shut off abruptly, but did a sort of 'fade-out' over a 1-2 second period. Interestingly, going over the tape in slow motion revealed a third, very weak Omega station running on until a minute or so later - the 10.2 kHz beep was noticed. Probably H-Japan, the next strongest station here in Califirnia usually. By 0301 UT, all that was left was the Russian Alpha system - short beeps in clusters of three beeps, a pause, then three beeps again in downward frequency steps. Russian Alpha is much weaker and higher up in frequency (up to 14.1 kHz) then Omega was and has a far lower duty-cycle, and so the natural radio band is really MUCH cleaner sounding suddenly! It's also fun to observe Alpha propagation - I guess the strongest one I get is from Siberia--it is stronger toward sunrise than at any other time of the day by 3-6 dB or so. The spectrogram above shows Omega Station "D" North Dakota, and Omega Station "C" Oahu, Hawaii with their last beeps. Recorded on my van-based WR- 4b VLF receiver with 2 meter whip antenna up 3 meters high. The tape was made on a Marantz PMD-212 with cromium tape and the WR-4b in high-pass/emphasis mode. The tape was copied into a sound file at 44.1 kHz/16 bit. Then it was FFT filtered in Coolwave 1.5 and 9 to 14 kHz was emphasised by 15 dB. Then I ran a spectrogram on it and then edited the spectrogram adding the labels. Notice that there is a weak short-beep station transmitting - that is Russian Alpha. There are supposedly three(?) stations in the Alpha chain. Does any reader know of info on the Russian Alpha system - locations, frequencies and format? Certainly, Alpha is going to continue for a while and it is going to be noticed by some listeners even though it is fairly weak. I'd like to put Alpha information into the WR-3/3E VLF Listening Guide and the VLF Listener's Handbook replacing the Omega info. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ More about the defunct Omega Radio Navigation System is in the WR- 3/3E LISTENING GUIDE Under the Omega section. This will not remain in the Guide for too much longer. Stephen P. McGreevy P.O. Box 928 Lone Pine, CA 93545-0928 USA http://www.triax.com/vlfradio/omega.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:19:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: watten barrage In-Reply-To: <199711141405.IAA17409@charlie.cns.iit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Keith, you're right to point out the need to bring Bernstein's piece directly into the conversation, instead of peripherally. I'll do that when I have it on hand (don't right now). Joe Amato is also right to point out that there are lots of convergences between the approaches. Watten's take-no-prisoners style has always, to me, stressed differences that assume a ground of agreement which some might not recognize. It's part of his way of making conversation. As to the "red herring" issue. It might or might not be accurate to charge Bernstein's essay in this way; however, I think it's not off the mark to suggest a certain visible tendency in the way arguments are carrried out over issues such as the Heath turf wars. Way back as far as Ron Silliman's _The New Sentence_, the point about competition among excluded poetries for "slots in the metanetwork" was being made by writers associated with the language movement; while Ron is about as pluralist a poet as I know, and has emphasized the specificity of his approach in more recent essays (like the one in _The Politics of Poetic Form_), identifying the institutional issue as important is both right and problematic. What Watten is trying to do here, I think, is intervene in a way that prevents the politics of poetry from being reduced to a merely literary politics. In that sense, he reads Bernstein as symptomatic, even though, as we all know, they have more in common than many other poets. Watten's piece and Bob Perelman's Marginalization have this in common: they represent a continuation of some debates that took place in the seventies, but in a new context: now that language writing is being academically recognized, that continuing debate is -- can't help but be -- (mis)recognized as fragmentation. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:03:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Re: whistlers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks, MAZ881. I don't claim to understand any of it, but it's the kind of thing that can keep us going until Alan Jen returns. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:14:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" maria, Whether or not you agree with who he published, Laughlin's contributions to 20th Century literature are immense. Keep in mind that it is due in large part to Laughlin that you can pick up much of Hermann Hesse's work at your local library. Brent At 09:23 AM 11/14/97 -0600, you wrote: >a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing >company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma >and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing >me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a >certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not >so explicitly... > >At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >>Patrick Pritchett writes -- >> >>> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >>> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >>> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >>> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >>> The rest is history, as they say. . . . >> >>though I don't have the book, am pretty sure -- a small biblio note, >>this -- that the title is *Ez as Wuz* [meaning, Ezra as he the was, >>one supposes -- "Ez" evidently being the familial nickname]. >> >>> . . . American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by >>> keeping faith with his committment to making it new. >> >>here here >> >>btw, re: the Poundian dictum "make it new," seems the "it" in question >>is antiquity's language / content -- Pound seeking to promote an Ancient >>Future, so to say (as when he admonished young W.S. Merwin "study >>root language, don't study branch language" or words to that effect) >>. . . so that being steeped in the old, one can then make it new . . . >> >>hat-tips to James Laughlin -- one of those sturdy, rugged, supportive >>presences on whom "so much depends" . . . >> >>d.i. >> . >> ..... >> ............ >> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ >> > david raphael israel < >> >> washington d.c. << >> | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) >> | disrael@skgf.com (office) >> ========================= >> | thy centuries follow each other >> | perfecting a small wild flower >> | (Tagore) >> //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:41:35 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Comprepoetica Warning MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------360921FD1BA4" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------360921FD1BA4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Warning!!! As soon as I saw Charles Alexander's accidentally-posted bio, I grabbed it for my poetry-data-collection site, Comprepoetica. That's 'cause I'm running scairt. Hardly anyone has filled out my survey form for a whole week--though Rochelle Ratner just did one, to my great relief. P.S., I did check with Charles about using his excellent, interesting bio, and he okayed it. (But I might have used it even if he hadn't okayed it, so watch out! I can be pretty terrible.) The real point: if you have any bio of yourself (or someone else who's a poet or critic or publisher of poetry or anything related to poetry, feel free to send it to Comprepoetica rather than (or along with) filling out my survey form. I do need bios for credibility. I'm up to 24 in slightly over a month of operation, which is good but should be better. Oh, and some still haven't been processed so exist as raw data only. You can still access them under their subjects' names, which are indexed at my site. --------------360921FD1BA4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="sig.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="sig.txt" Bob Grumman BobGrumman@Nut-N-But.Net http://www.GeoCities.com/SoHo/Cafe/1492 Comprepoetica, the Poetry-Data-Collection Site --------------360921FD1BA4-- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:11:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Portable Plateau Comments: To: cap-l@Virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Micheal Hoerman's new literary magazine, _The Portable Plateau_, is getting ready for its second issue. As some of you know, the first issue contained work by Tess Gallagher, some previously unpublished Langston Hughes, Betsy Robin Schwarts, Frank Stanford, and others. Next issue has Gary Snyder, Al Young, John Clelland Holmes (possibly previously unpublished, though I am unsure), and some others. Anyone interested in submitting or subscribing should contact Mike at bebop@ipa.net or call him at (417) 624-5061. Also, for those of you who love snail mail, P.O. Box 755 Joplin, MO 64801 Best, Brent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:19:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971114171403.006a54b8@postoffice.brown.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:14 PM -0500 11/14/97, Brent Long wrote: >maria, >Whether or not you agree with who he published, Laughlin's contributions to >20th Century literature are immense. Keep in mind that it is due in large >part to Laughlin that you can pick up much of Hermann Hesse's work at your >local library. > >Brent brent: you seem to have missed my point, which was not to chide laughlin for being a publisher (you may have noticed i was among the first to respond to marjorie's post), but to chide pound for (if the anecdote is accurate) suggesting laughlin give up his own writing in order to devote his considerable talent and resources to publish --surprise surprise --pound himself. i said it sounded like the same old, though usually gendered, story: "honey, don't do your own writing, give up everything to support ME and MY writing." it is good to hear from others that laughlin did not entirely abandon his own writing after all. > > > >At 09:23 AM 11/14/97 -0600, you wrote: >>a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing >>company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma >>and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing >>me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a >>certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not >>so explicitly... >> >>At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >>>Patrick Pritchett writes -- >>> >>>> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >>>> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >>>> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >>>> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >>>> The rest is history, as they say. . . . >>> >>>though I don't have the book, am pretty sure -- a small biblio note, >>>this -- that the title is *Ez as Wuz* [meaning, Ezra as he the was, >>>one supposes -- "Ez" evidently being the familial nickname]. >>> >>>> . . . American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by >>>> keeping faith with his committment to making it new. >>> >>>here here >>> >>>btw, re: the Poundian dictum "make it new," seems the "it" in question >>>is antiquity's language / content -- Pound seeking to promote an Ancient >>>Future, so to say (as when he admonished young W.S. Merwin "study >>>root language, don't study branch language" or words to that effect) >>>. . . so that being steeped in the old, one can then make it new . . . >>> >>>hat-tips to James Laughlin -- one of those sturdy, rugged, supportive >>>presences on whom "so much depends" . . . >>> >>>d.i. >>> . >>> ..... >>> ............ >>> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ >>> > david raphael israel < >>> >> washington d.c. << >>> | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) >>> | disrael@skgf.com (office) >>> ========================= >>> | thy centuries follow each other >>> | perfecting a small wild flower >>> | (Tagore) >>> //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:38:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Announcing Proliferation #4 issue & Contributors' Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mary, If this gets to you in time, perhaps you can send my regards to Stephen Ratcliffe, who I published several times in a magazine I did in the late eighties, _Peninsula_. Tell me to send me an e-mail or two! I didn't know about your magazine. Are you accepting stuff these days? Just finished a new long poem that I think might feel comfortable in your pages. Anyway, hope tonight's a success! Best, Joe Safdie > ---------- > From: Mary Burger[SMTP:mburger@ADOBE.COM] > Sent: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:42 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Announcing Proliferation #4 issue & Contributors' > Reading > > Proliferation #4 is now available, with work by Susan Gevirtz, Stephen > Ratcliffe, Pamela Lu, Renee Gladman, Dan Bouchard, Beth Anderson, > Joseph > Torra, Tan Lin, Bill Lavender, Laura Moriarty, Leslie Scalapino, and > more. > > BAY AREA CONTRIBUTORS' READING: > Friday, Nov. 14, 7:30 p.m. > Modern Times Bookstore > Valencia St. & 20th St. > San Francisco > > ISSUE available from: > * Modern Times Bookstore > > * The Editors: (send check for $9.50 including postage, payable to M. > Burger or C. Vitiello) > Mary Burger, 1253 Hampshire St., San Francisco CA 94110 > or > Chris Vitiello, 2707 Farthing St., Durham NC 27704 > > *Small Press Distribution - coming soon! > 1-800-869-7553 > spd@igc.apc.org > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:43:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Announcing Proliferation #4 issue & Contributors' Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sorry sorry sorry . . . but glad to report that the old expression "my ears are burning" has some exact neuro-physical referents! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 18:42:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: quote for the day In-Reply-To: Harold Rhenisch "Re: quote for the day" (Nov 13, 2:24pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Harold Rhenisch wrote: >I was trying to work out the idea that if people were responding to the >trace of a foreign aesthetic, or the way in which it manifested itself >within the parameters of their receiving technology (or culture), very >little communication is going to take place: what will be communicated will >be only a series of traces, which seem to me to be terribly short-lived and >unstable isotopes. The short time traces have always been unavoidable in poetry (even desirable I might think; a lot more than we can quantify gets communicated in short spaces). This is subtlety and something for poets of the now and the future to develop. >When we shift to a different type of >text (from conservative poetry to lang-po, for instance, or from Disneyland >sound-bites to T.S. Eliot) we will get messed up, because we will process >the signal automatically, but we will be processing it incorrectly. It will >be unreadable. A reader willing to do the work will correct this, by >switching to manual processing, then building up a new and more >sophisticated processing system, which can eventually process the material >correctly. And a quiet revolution has taken place. William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:48:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: James Laughlin Comments: To: Maria Damon MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Interesting observation, Maria. Pound was, I suppose, nothing if not patronizing. This tendency to lord it over "lesser mortals" seems over to time to have become magnified into his psychosis. Funny thing is though, I can't think of a better word to describe the institutionalized sexism you allude to. And this remark from Pound to JL by the same poet who satirized such patronizing attitudes in "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly": "... and give up poetry, my boy, there's no money in it." Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Maria Damon To: POETICS Subject: Re: James Laughlin Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:06PM a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not so explicitly... At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >Patrick Pritchett writes -- > >> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >> The rest is history, as they say. . . . > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 19:54:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: watten barrage In a message dated 97-11-14 18:50:37 EST, you write: << Keith, you're right to point out the need to bring Bernstein's piece directly into the conversation, instead of peripherally. I'll do that when I have it on hand (don't right now). >> YES! I would love that. I'm having a hard time without it. While I'm fascinated with this discussion, it's fragmented to such a degree that part of the fascination is puzzling out the missing content. I'd like to have a more complete understanding! Thanks, Aviva ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:06:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Dugan/out of print books Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" After a varied string of posts on another list, I heard that Alan Dugan's poems are now all completely out of print. I assume this is true since a friend of mine who knows him told me so, but I am wondering where I might get copies of Poems 1, 2, and 4. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Best, Brent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:06:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: Border's Books/Union Petition To the Poetics List: I got the petition e-mailed to me so I thought I'd post it so people could know about what's going on with Border's Books. Essentially, they're bullying the workers and threatening to fire them, ect., should they try to organize. I'm under the impression health benefits are part of the concern. Send mail/signed copies to Mr. Lichenstein. Nelson Lichenstein Department of History U. of Virginia Charlottesville, VA 22903 We hereby demand that Border's, Inc. bargain in good faith and negotiate a fair and equitable contract with their employees who exercised their legal right by voting to be represented by the United Food and Commercial Workers, AFL-CIO. Further we demand that Borders, Inc. cease and desist from all actions intended to intimidate, or demean its employees; that Borders, Inc. affirm the employees' legal right to form and join a Union, and remain neutral in employees' efforts to organize. Paul Vangelisti Writer & teacher Los Angeles Robert Crosson Writer Los Angeles Standard Schaefer Writer Pasadena Evan Calbi Writer/Editor Los Angeles ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 17:21:20 -0800 Reply-To: layne@sonic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets & Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Announcing Proliferation #4 issue & Contributors' Reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Safdie Joseph wrote: > > Mary, > > If this gets to you in time, perhaps you can send my regards to Stephen > Ratcliffe, who I published several times in a magazine I did in the late > eighties, _Peninsula_. Tell me to send me an e-mail or two! Safdie, just heard Stephen read at a Russian River Writers Guild reading here in Sonoma County. he was excellent. he read from new works, then all talked with him about his writing. I see he has at least 15 books...and I came home with one of them (Sculpture), kindly signed. He also asked me to subscribe him to our poetry email list Socopoet. nice. Layne ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.sonic.net/layne A Quiet Place ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:47:13 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: friday's riddle Quotes from Herbet Schneidau, SACRED DISCONTENT: Myth...is a kind of cultural glue; in this aspect, perhaps, it is to men what mutual grooming is to apes. Christianity attacks human life at so deep a level that it disallows all existing culture. (Amos N. Wilder) God deliberately gave Israel bad laws "which was to punish them, so that they would learn that I am the Lord." (Jeremiah) There are no great Hebrew culture heroes who found cities: in fact it is questionable whether there are "Hebrew" cities at all. (Herbert Schneidau, a.k.a. Jack Spandrift) Though I count myself innocent, it may declare me a hypocrite. (Job) Now the ordinary man in society - and Hebrew society was no exception - cannot live comfortably with the suspicion that his acts are meaningless; therefore, as Isaiah says, he hears but does not hear. As Hosea notes, many of the utterances sound like "raving" to the ordinary man. But Ezekiel, who had long periods of trance and aphasia, seems the most likely target for long-distance psychoanalysis. Recently many studies have stressed the usefulness of aggression in stabilizing social structures; hen's pecking orders and baboons' dominance patterns furnish provocative analogies to such groups as the Eddystone Islanders, whose mythology served to order and control the aggression which, when suppressed, may rot the cultural fiber. No doubt similar relations between mythology and violence were widespread in man's early millenia... (Burnwatt Charstein) ...in spite of all the tomes that have been written on So-and-so's "use of the Bible", the point is how the Bible uses authors, not vice versa. The significant lack of myth in the Bible may have much to do with its unsettling effect. (Herbert Schneidau) - Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:06:36 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: watten barrage In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:19:51 -0500 from On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:19:51 -0500 David Kellogg said: >Keith, you're right to point out the need to bring Bernstein's piece >directly into the conversation, instead of peripherally. I'll do that >when I have it on hand (don't right now). > >Joe Amato is also right to point out that there are lots of convergences >between the approaches. Watten's take-no-prisoners style has always, to >me, stressed differences that assume a ground of agreement which some >might not recognize. It's part of his way of making conversation. > >As to the "red herring" issue. It might or might not be accurate to >charge Bernstein's essay in this way; however, I think it's not off the >mark to suggest a certain visible tendency in the way arguments are >carrried out over issues such as the Heath turf wars. Way back as far as >Ron Silliman's _The New Sentence_, the point about competition among >excluded poetries for "slots in the metanetwork" was being made by writers >associated with the language movement; while Ron is about as pluralist a >poet as I know, and has emphasized the specificity of his approach in more >recent essays (like the one in _The Politics of Poetic Form_), identifying >the institutional issue as important is both right and problematic. What >Watten is trying to do here, I think, is intervene in a way that prevents >the politics of poetry from being reduced to a merely literary politics. >In that sense, he reads Bernstein as symptomatic, even though, as we all >know, they have more in common than many other poets. > Hi David, Yes on the "merely literary politics" business, but a cynic might say that insofar as the first agenda in BW's essay is arguing the necessity of a "cultural poetics" BW is "merely" caught up in a methodological "turf war" and one primarily situated in the academy. Though by the terms of the essay there would be no such thing as "merely" as the victorious and vanquished discourses and tastes, the standard/hegemonic and non-, would both be products within the social totality and not necessarily opposed or in a binary formation. Or so he seems to be saying tho I'm cryptic here. And yes too of course on BW and CB having more in common than others but the target is not so much CB's practice or even for that matter his poetics so much as the modernism/modernity distinction BW sees perpetuated in Altieri especially but also in CB. BW's "social reflexivity" as against Altieri's "reflexive consciousness" comes clear, as does the contingency and non- translatibility (god what a word if it is one) of BOTH the normative/non- normative distinction AND "identity politics." (Once saw a french scholar shake his head befuddled when I tried to explain how that phrase usually means in the US, and by the way I was a little unfair to BW yesterday as there's a discussion in his essay of CB's reading of McKay that acknowledges that CB is grappling with these issues.) I think that down the road it's likely that BW means to "argue" with Greenblatt and the fact that that's just a footnote here is just a little frustrating. Though the point of disagreement is clear: BW believes the author returns in Greenblatt's cultural poetics in less-than-useful ways, even while he sides with Greenblatt's project in other ways. I take it that the most useful provocations here turn on several sentences I'll now quote for those who don't have the essay--you'll have read them. No time to comment on them now. Maybe later. In the event that I can't find the time I'll go on record as saying that when BW writes that "seeing the material text as cultural production may lead to new vistas of comprehension, and to new and as yet unanticipated forms of participation" I want to agree with the first proposition while noting that the last is both hortatory and hopeful, dare I say "impossibly" utopian. It may be true that the most political thing that langpo did was not disrupt the norms of poetic practice or hybridize genre or whatever but build institutions, networks of exchange, and etc. which acknowledged the collectivity and "social reflexivity" of poetic practice, and it may be that we need to be reminded that "there's no outside" as the cliche goes, but the idea that a "cultural poetics" will produce new forms of participation--well that's hopeful. And there's more to say. Now for those who ask for more text & w/ the reminder that one can dial up Steve Evans and get the whole thing here's a few passages. [Oh and the CB is _Modernism/Modernity 3.3 (September 1996), from Johns Hopkins UP.] "The trouble with self-reflexivity as the value of form, in this sense, is that it insists on imagining itself as apart from the world that constitutes it. One can only read oneself out of the world" (34). [One might italicize "read"] "Norms are products, not deductive schema of oppressive rationality, although they can be used for oppressive ends. Nonstandard norms are also produced; they are not simply defined against the abstraction of normativity. The work of the language School, if produced within a system of social feedback necessary for meaning and comprehension, may in turn end up reproducing itself as a new norm. If this were to happen, a nonstandard mode of expression might simply be inserted into the space of a vacated norm of the expressive lyric" (33). [Big word here would be "if"?] "The assembly line is a form of modernity that was never 'invented.' Likewise the Language School had no authorial origins, but began as a sequence of 'improvements' within the form of organization that developed between writers in _This_" (19). >Watten's piece and Bob Perelman's Marginalization have this in common: >they represent a continuation of some debates that took place in the >seventies, but in a new context: now that language writing is being >academically recognized, that continuing debate is -- can't help but be -- >(mis)recognized as fragmentation. I'd like to hear more on this, David. > >Cheers, >David best, Keith >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:17:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patricia Cockram Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Maria, Ordinarily I would agree with your assessment. But Pound was famous for helping any and all poets whose work he thought was serious (that includes women, by the way), and he often did so before promoting his own work. For all his faults, he was hugely generous, even to those who were not his friends or with whom he did not agree politically. Laughlin would say so himself. Pound was not always right, but my guess is that he sincerely felt that Laughlin didn't have it in him to be a poet. Sometimes he didn't think he had it in him to be a publisher either, judging from some of his letters to Jay complaining about the amount of time he spent on the ski slopes instead of getting the books out. I would say that there have been few poets as generous with other artists. Patricia On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Maria Damon wrote: > At 5:14 PM -0500 11/14/97, Brent Long wrote: > >maria, > >Whether or not you agree with who he published, Laughlin's contributions to > >20th Century literature are immense. Keep in mind that it is due in large > >part to Laughlin that you can pick up much of Hermann Hesse's work at your > >local library. > > > >Brent > > brent: you seem to have missed my point, which was not to chide laughlin > for being a publisher (you may have noticed i was among the first to > respond to marjorie's post), but to chide pound for (if the anecdote is > accurate) suggesting laughlin give up his own writing in order to devote > his considerable talent and resources to publish --surprise surprise > --pound himself. i said it sounded like the same old, though usually > gendered, story: "honey, don't do your own writing, give up everything to > support ME and MY writing." it is good to hear from others that laughlin > did not entirely abandon his own writing after all. > > > > > > > >At 09:23 AM 11/14/97 -0600, you wrote: > >>a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing > >>company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma > >>and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing > >>me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a > >>certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not > >>so explicitly... > >> > >>At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: > >>>Patrick Pritchett writes -- > >>> > >>>> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound > >>>> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in > >>>> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and > >>>> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. > >>>> The rest is history, as they say. . . . > >>> > >>>though I don't have the book, am pretty sure -- a small biblio note, > >>>this -- that the title is *Ez as Wuz* [meaning, Ezra as he the was, > >>>one supposes -- "Ez" evidently being the familial nickname]. > >>> > >>>> . . . American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by > >>>> keeping faith with his committment to making it new. > >>> > >>>here here > >>> > >>>btw, re: the Poundian dictum "make it new," seems the "it" in question > >>>is antiquity's language / content -- Pound seeking to promote an Ancient > >>>Future, so to say (as when he admonished young W.S. Merwin "study > >>>root language, don't study branch language" or words to that effect) > >>>. . . so that being steeped in the old, one can then make it new . . . > >>> > >>>hat-tips to James Laughlin -- one of those sturdy, rugged, supportive > >>>presences on whom "so much depends" . . . > >>> > >>>d.i. > >>> . > >>> ..... > >>> ............ > >>> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > >>> > david raphael israel < > >>> >> washington d.c. << > >>> | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) > >>> | disrael@skgf.com (office) > >>> ========================= > >>> | thy centuries follow each other > >>> | perfecting a small wild flower > >>> | (Tagore) > >>> //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// > >> > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:08:29 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: James Laughlin i can't help but express my dismay at the perhaps utterly blind reductivism of summing up laughlin's life in terms of his connection with pound only and further summing up pound as "an aging fascist." To mirror people like marianne moore and more recently alfred kazin, let me say that i too dislike pound--but i also recognize his genius, and as a literary historian of a sort his huge influence on 20th century poetry and criticism. i recall a wonderful closing line of a poem by joel oppenheimer's called "for the barbers": "oh the / professionals what we / should fear." also, i can't help but tentatively advance the idea that some at least period of dignified mourning should perhaps be observed before we start on the really cutthroat postmortems. burt kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:37:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: <009BD536.E2618E30.9@admin.njit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: > > i can't help but express my dismay at the perhaps utterly blind reductivism > of summing up laughlin's life in terms of his connection with pound only > and further summing up pound as "an aging fascist." I don't think maria meant to reduce JL's life this way, but the post _did_ have that effect. (Sorry md: gotta call 'em as I see 'em.) Besides, when Laughlin met Pound, Pound was neither old nor demonstrably a fascist (yet). I wouldn't want to reduce Zukofsky, or Olson, or Bunting, in this way -- those who have done so mainly want to dismiss those writers from literary history. Why is it easier with a person labelled "publisher" than simply "poet"? What about "critic"? Will Hugh Kenner's life and work, when he dies, be similarly reduced to his visiting Pound at the urging of Marshall McLuhan? I hope the hell not. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:45:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: James Laughlin My apologies to Maria if I took a remark of hers that was quoted by someone else out of context. I'm afraid I may have been hasty and I guess I ought to resist wading in with off the top of my head opinions when I am busy enough with other things so that I am not carefully sifting through the Poetics posting. But I still think Joel Oppenheimer was right (even though I myself at times pose as one of those "professionals"). Burt ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 11:41:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: <01IQ0BF0RY6A97CBTY@iix.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi Maria & Pat-- Of course, the "Mauberley" comment is directed by a publisher at a poet, and relates, not to the quality of the poet's work, but the very desirability of pursuing poetry as a genre--it's simply not economically rewarding. Pound never told Jay Laughlin not to write cuz he wouldn't get rich or make a living at it, but because he believed that Laughlin simply didn't have the talent or sensibility ever to be very good at it. (I think he was more or less right--I've read a lot of Laughlin's poetry, and I can't recall a single one of the poems that sticks in my mind as particularly good. I suppose it would be way uncool for me to characterize his work as relentlessly _minor_, but most of it falls right into the category of personal, voice-based lyric that most of us on the list seem to dislike and find retrograde. What I _do_ find intermittently interesting is his typewriter-space based prosody--each line determined by the number of spaces, rather than syllables or words. But that doesn't keep me reading the poems.) You draw a fascinating parallel, Maria, but what's the significance? Pound tells Laughlin not to write; Emerson leaves Emma Lazarus out of Parnassus. So what? The latter may well be a case of sexism, the former certainly isn't. Does his treatment of Laughlin mean we should discount Pound's immense aid and sponsorship of younger poets? Go back and reread the letters to Mary Barnard and Iris Barry in Pound's _Selected Letters_ if you want to say something about the gendered basis of Pound's mentorship practices. (Of course, it may be a class thing--Pound dismissing Laughlin's work as a rich boy's dilletantism--but I suspect that we're much less willing to rush to the defence of the well-endowed minority.) Sorry, but I find it odd that, in a moment when everyone is striving to say nicenesses about Laughlin's position in 20th-century poetry publishing, you want to bend over backwards to make Pound's dismissal of his work somehow symbolic of male poets' squashing female poets' talents. Sadly, it happens all the time--but it didn't happen here, and Laughlin's publishing track record shows that, of small press publishers in the US, he wasn't particularly guilty of that sin. best, Mark Scroggins On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: > Interesting observation, Maria. Pound was, I suppose, nothing if not > patronizing. This tendency to lord it over "lesser mortals" seems over to > time to have become magnified into his psychosis. Funny thing is though, I > can't think of a better word to describe the institutionalized sexism you > allude to. And this remark from Pound to JL by the same poet who satirized > such patronizing attitudes in "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly": "... and give up > poetry, my boy, there's no money in it." > > Patrick Pritchett > ---------- > From: Maria Damon > To: POETICS > Subject: Re: James Laughlin > Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:06PM > > > a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing > company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma > and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing > me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a > certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not > so explicitly... > > At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: > >Patrick Pritchett writes -- > > > >> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound > >> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in > >> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and > >> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. > >> The rest is history, as they say. . . . > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:50:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" okay; thanks for reminding me that people are complex. both of our "takes" can be true i guess. At 2:17 AM -0500 11/15/97, Patricia Cockram wrote: >Maria, >Ordinarily I would agree with your assessment. But Pound was famous for >helping any and all poets whose work he thought was serious (that includes >women, by the way), and he often did so before promoting his own work. >For all his faults, he was hugely generous, even to those who were not >his friends or with whom he did not agree politically. Laughlin would say >so himself. > >Pound was not always right, but my guess is that he sincerely >felt that Laughlin didn't have it in him to be a poet. Sometimes he >didn't think he had it in him to be a publisher either, judging from some >of his letters to Jay complaining about the amount of time he spent on the >ski slopes instead of getting the books out. > >I would say that there have been few poets as generous with other artists. >Patricia > >On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Maria Damon wrote: > >> At 5:14 PM -0500 11/14/97, Brent Long wrote: >> >maria, >> >Whether or not you agree with who he published, Laughlin's contributions to >> >20th Century literature are immense. Keep in mind that it is due in large >> >part to Laughlin that you can pick up much of Hermann Hesse's work at your >> >local library. >> > >> >Brent >> >> brent: you seem to have missed my point, which was not to chide laughlin >> for being a publisher (you may have noticed i was among the first to >> respond to marjorie's post), but to chide pound for (if the anecdote is >> accurate) suggesting laughlin give up his own writing in order to devote >> his considerable talent and resources to publish --surprise surprise >> --pound himself. i said it sounded like the same old, though usually >> gendered, story: "honey, don't do your own writing, give up everything to >> support ME and MY writing." it is good to hear from others that laughlin >> did not entirely abandon his own writing after all. >> > >> > >> > >> >At 09:23 AM 11/14/97 -0600, you wrote: >> >>a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing >> >>company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma >> >>and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing >> >>me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a >> >>certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at >>least not >> >>so explicitly... >> >> >> >>At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >> >>>Patrick Pritchett writes -- >> >>> >> >>>> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >> >>>> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >> >>>> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >> >>>> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >> >>>> The rest is history, as they say. . . . >> >>> >> >>>though I don't have the book, am pretty sure -- a small biblio note, >> >>>this -- that the title is *Ez as Wuz* [meaning, Ezra as he the was, >> >>>one supposes -- "Ez" evidently being the familial nickname]. >> >>> >> >>>> . . . American poetry owes him a debt which can only be repaid by >> >>>> keeping faith with his committment to making it new. >> >>> >> >>>here here >> >>> >> >>>btw, re: the Poundian dictum "make it new," seems the "it" in question >> >>>is antiquity's language / content -- Pound seeking to promote an Ancient >> >>>Future, so to say (as when he admonished young W.S. Merwin "study >> >>>root language, don't study branch language" or words to that effect) >> >>>. . . so that being steeped in the old, one can then make it new . . . >> >>> >> >>>hat-tips to James Laughlin -- one of those sturdy, rugged, supportive >> >>>presences on whom "so much depends" . . . >> >>> >> >>>d.i. >> >>> . >> >>> ..... >> >>> ............ >> >>> \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ >> >>> > david raphael israel < >> >>> >> washington d.c. << >> >>> | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) >> >>> | disrael@skgf.com (office) >> >>> ========================= >> >>> | thy centuries follow each other >> >>> | perfecting a small wild flower >> >>> | (Tagore) >> >>> //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// >> >> >> >> >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:54:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: <009BD536.E2618E30.9@admin.njit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" again, i take this as a serious misreading of my intention and my words themselves. i admire laughlin's contributions tremendously and did not belittle him thru association w/ pound, as anyone reading the words on the screen might have realized. my objections were leveled at pound. if the anecdote is accurate, i stand by my observation. if it is not, i will reconsider. At 10:08 AM -0500 11/15/97, Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT wrote: >i can't help but express my dismay at the perhaps utterly blind reductivism >of summing up laughlin's life in terms of his connection with pound only >and further summing up pound as "an aging fascist." To mirror people >like marianne moore and more recently alfred kazin, let me say that i >too dislike pound--but i also recognize his genius, and as a literary >historian of a sort his huge influence on 20th century poetry and criticism. >i recall a wonderful closing line of a poem by joel oppenheimer's called >"for the barbers": "oh the / professionals what we / should fear." >also, i can't help but tentatively advance the idea that some at least >period of dignified mourning should perhaps be observed before we start >on the really cutthroat postmortems. >burt kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:49:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: William Matthews Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bill Matthews was my writing teacher at CCNY's MA Creative writing program. I thought I had entered the netherworld when, in the first class, he made reference t"to my good friend Daniel Halpern" well, it wasn't hades--though it was my first encounter with nondowntown poetics & (gasp) folks like matthews loved poetry as much as ted berrigan did except the heroes tended more to be robertfrost than frank o'hara. ebven though our senses of poetry were miles apart, he treated my work with respect as he did with everyone in the workshop -- the one "star" to emerge from my time was Walter Mosley, who found his calling in the mystery novel genre. joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:36:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Mosley's poesy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [ was, Re: William Matthews ] Joel Lewis recollects -- > Bill Matthews was my writing teacher at CCNY's MA Creative writing > program. . . . -- the one "star" to emerge from my time was Walter > Mosley, who found his calling in the mystery novel genre. hmm, interesting. I rapped my knuckles on the front door. It was fabricated from many layers of wood. So many layers that I couldn't get a sure knock. The sound I did make was nothing more than the rustling of kisses in a close hallway at night. - Easy Rawlins (Mosley's privite eye character), in *Black Betty* Other than Chandler and Hammett, Walter Mosley happens to be the only mystery writer I've taken an interest in reading in recent years. So I appreciate getting this little, unexpected anecdotal backgrounder, Joel. Haven't kept up with Mosley's work, but recent reviews indicate some branching out from mystery genre (& from Easy Rawlins). As noted in the NYT Book Review by Sven Birkerts (Nov. 9 '97) (at: http://search.nytimes.com/books/search/bin/fastweb?getdoc+book-rev+boo k-r+22253+6++%27Walter%20Mosley%27 ) -- Assigning his protagonist, Socrates Fortlow, the name of the father of Western philosophy, Walter Mosley has, in ''Always Outnumbered, Always Outgunned,'' set out to explore the implications of moral action in a society that has lost all purchase on the spirit of the law. This, Mosley's eighth work of fiction, makes a striking departure from the familiar event-driven world of Easy Rawlins. The 14 loosely linked vignettes and tales incorporate the Platonic dialogues as a kind of ghost melody; signature strains of the classic are vamped up in the rough demotic of present-day Watts. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 16:55:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: Soko Loco MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dan, -- > . . . . . They offer me a fisherman's sense of possibility in > something of the "infinitely small vocabulary" Spicer designated > forf the "perfect poem." I enjoy the interplay of chance _and_ > constraint _and_ choice . . . yes, exactly, -- that was something I sensed in the 14 lines you posted -- especially after realizing (on re-reading) that you'd assembled the lines so as to have something approaching syntactic meaning (i.e., readability beyond the level of the line); that you'd taken care with punctuation, to suggest that; and that, too, the resultant composition could be thought to comprise a sonnet. On the perennial topic of chance v. choice, I recall the feisty composer Lou Harrison commenting (vis-a-vis John Cage), in a curmudgeonly manner -- but memorably withal -- "I'd rather chance a choice than choose a chance." This was, I think, a remark he whipped out on the spot, when I was chatting with him after the premier of what Harrison styled his "final symphony" (at BAM some years ago) -- a line that seemed rehearsed, yet witty enough to seem charming (one's admiration for Cage notwithstanding). There are so many ways in which both chance & choice can have scope, it seems -- and their combination (with, as you say, constraint) seems, to me, eminently human (even when, as here, drawing on the potential of the latest gizmotry). Thanks much for the offer of y our recent publication (will send snail address under separate e). d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:23:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Shareholder Activism Comments: To: dmb9f@faraday.clas.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If any of you contribute to TIAA-CREF retirement accounts, when you get a ballot in the mail, I urge you to vote yes on shareholder proposal 4, which seeks to widen the impact of the Social Choice account by investing in companies that make a positive social and environmental impact rather than just screening out negatives. (On the ballot itself, TIAA-CREF actually recommends voting no, which I fine unconscionable. ) Relevant info below. Annie >X-Incognito-SN: 1019 >Date: Thu, 06 Nov 1997 11:26:13 -0500 (EST) >From: AAFuller%Faculty%MC@manchester.edu >Subject: Shareholder Activism >To: sbillenness@frdc.com, mamccormick@ssu.edu, bill@atmos.washington.edu, > URPE@igc.apc.org, beth@psych.nyu.edu, cld@sover.net, > kcoldren@puafmail.umd.edu, finchar@muohio.edu, >glover.kenny.associates@juno.com >Reply-to: AAFuller%Faculty%MC@manchester.edu >MIME-version: 1.0 >X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.130 >X-Priority: 3 (Normal) > >We apologize for contacting you again so soon after our last message, but >wanted to pass on this urgent request from a colleague regarding SEC >regulations on shareholder resolutions (third item below) that requires >action by November 10 (to influence TIAA-CREF) or by November 24 (to comment >to the SEC). > >The first and second items below we were planning on sending in a few weeks, >but thought we'd just send them all together. > >Abby and Neil >------------------------------------------------------- > > SOCIAL CHOICE FOR SOCIAL CHANGE: > CAMPAIGN FOR A NEW TIAA-CREF > > A call to invest 5-10% of Social Choice Account assets > in companies that are models of > social and environmental responsibility > > Box 135, Manchester College, North Manchester, IN 46962 >(219)982-5346/5009, njw@manchester.edu, aaf@manchester.edu > http://www.manchester.edu/departmt/peace/njw/disclaim.html > Neil Wollman and Abigail Fuller, Co-Chairs > >Dear Colleague, > >We are writing to ask your help in spreading word of the campaign to faculty >in your >discipline. Any or all of the following would be most helpful. If all you >have time to do is >send us the names and addresses of your professional organizations, we'll do >the >legwork. > >1. Post the notice about the campaign (sent to you previously) to email >discussion lists >to which you subscribe. >- or, tell us how to contact the list and we will do it > >2. Ask your professional association(s), and or divisions/sections within >them, to >publish the notice in their newsletter. >- or, give us the name/address of the publications and we will do it > >3. Ask your professional association(s), and/or divisions/sections with them, >to endorse >the campaign. This would include groups concerned with social and >environmental >responsibility. (See endorsement request letter below.) >- or, give us the name/address of the appropriate people to contact and we >can do it > >If you prefer, we can send you hard copies of the campaign notice or >endorsement request letter. These materials, and others relevant to the >campaign, are accessible at our web site--see address above. > >If possible, let us know which tasks you can undertake--though that's not a >necessity. Thanks for your contribution to socially responsible investing. > >Sincerely, > >Neil and Abby >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >----------------- > > SAMPLE LETTER REQUESTING GROUP ENDORSEMENT > >Dear Colleague, > >We are writing to ask your organization to endorse and/or publicize the >campaign >described below. Formal endorsement roughly entails the following: > >- Sending a letter noting your endorsement to us, and to Chairman and CEO >John >Biggs, Vice Chairman and CIO Martin L. Leibowitz, and Corporate Secretary >Albert J. >Wilson, and the other CREF trustees: TIAA-CREF, 730 Third Avenue, New York, >NY >10017-3206. > >- Publicizing the endorsement in your newsletter, on your e-mail lists or >website, at >conferences, or other ways. > >- Requesting that your members contact TIAA-CREF individually. (Letters from >individuals with and without TIAA-CREF accounts are welcome.) Besides postal >letters, >e-mail can be sent to feedback@tiaa-cref.org, with a request to forward >copies to the >officers and trustees noted above. > >Whether or not you can endorse the campaign, any efforts to publicize it are >most >appreciated. > >Sincerely, > >------------------------------------------------------ > > SOCIAL CHOICE FOR SOCIAL CHANGE: > CAMPAIGN FOR A NEW TIAA-CREF > >TELL TIAA-CREF, THE PENSION FUND FOR COLLEGE FACULTY, THAT >YOU SUPPORT "POSITIVE INVESTING" FOR THE SOCIAL CHOICE >ACCOUNT! SEND EMAIL TO FEEDBACK@TIAA-CREF.ORG, PHONE >(800) 842-2733, OR WRITE TO 730 THIRD AVE., NY, NY 10017-3206. >(To circulate a petition, contact the campaign at the address below.) > > Despite the fact that over 80 percent of TIAA-CREF's Social >Choice Account participants favor "seeking out for investment >companies [that] have an outstanding record of good performance on >social issues, rather than rely on negative screens," the company has >refused to do just that. This was revealed in a survey conducted by >TIAA-CREF--the Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association-College >Retirement Equities Fund--which also found that only 3 percent oppose >this investment strategy. > In response, college faculty have launched a nationwide campaign >to persuade TIAA-CREF to begin "positive investing" of their pension >funds. We are calling for 5-10% of assets in the Social Choice >Account, a socially responsible fund, to be invested in companies that >are models of social and environmental responsibility. This would mean >$100-200 million invested in companies with, for instance, exemplary >relations with employees or local communities. > TIAA-CREF is the nation's largest private pension system. In >1989, we successfully lobbied the group for the creation of the Social >Choice Account, which screens out companies that do business in >tobacco, alcohol, nuclear energy or weapons, or the military; pollute >the environment; or operate in Northern Ireland without endorsing the >McBride Principles against religious discrimination in employment. It is >now the largest socially responsible account in the country. > For a brochure and other campaign materials, contact Social >Choice for Social Change: Campaign for a New TIAA-CREF, Box 135, >Manchester College, North Manchester, IN 46062, >(219)982-5346/5009, or e-mail Neil Wollman at NJW@Manchester.edu >or Abigail Fuller at AAF@Manchester.edu. Visit the web site at >http:/www.manchester.edu (click on "index," then "Social Choice for >Social Change"). If you do contact TIAA-CREF or take other actions, >please let us know so we can monitor campaign activities. Thank you. >--------------------------------------------------------------- > >To: Eugene Finegold, Gordon Rands, David Gordon, Neil Wollman: > >I understand that each of you has been involved in some way with social >issues and TIAA. This is to solicit your assistance if that is possible, and >in the hope that you have a network of some sort to get the word out. > >Background: The SEC has recently proposed rules for comment that would >effectively limit the possibilities of shareholder activity on social and >environmental issues. I won't go into detail, but more information can be >gotten by going to www.socialinvest.org/sec. To underline the magnitude of >the problem, research soon to be released will show that much of the >activity around South Africa might never have been able to happen. So too >with many of the environmental resolutions, such as corporate action on the >CERES Principles. > >The SEC is asking for comments by November 25. > >It appears that TIAA is planning not to respond. As we understand it, TIAA >feels that they are big enough that the proposed rules, if enacted, will >not restrict anything they might want to do. This suggests a certain >optimism on their part, and totally disregards the importance of shareholder >activity to smaller shareholders. > >I am planning to attend the TIAA meeting on November 10 in New York and make >a statement asking TIAA to respond to SEC, supporting the rights of small >shareholders. It would be very useful if they were to hear from their >shareholders--us-- letting them know that we want them to hold the line, >supporting the present arrangements. > >The following press release gives some background: > > Social Investment Forum > NEWS RELEASE > > CONTACT: Erin Mantz or Scott Stapf, 703/276-1116 > > COALITION WARNS SEC PLAN > CREATES IMPOSSIBLE 'OBSTACLE > COURSE' FOR SHAREHOLDER RIGHTS > > SEC Proposal Slams Smaller Investors; Corporations Get > Handed a Variety of New Tools to Block Shareholder > Actions > > WASHINGTON, D.C. / OCTOBER 23, 1997 - > If it had been in place over the last two decades, the insidious >effects of a > package of proposed rules now pending before the U.S. Securities >and > Exchange Commission (SEC) would have made it virtually impossible >to > sustain critical shareholder advocacy campaigns on issues such as > apartheid in South Africa, the sale of tobacco to American youths, > environmental degradation, and the use of slave labor abroad, >according > to a warning issued today by a new coalition opposed to the >pending > SEC rules now out for public comment until November 24, 1997. > > Social Investment Forum President, Steve Schueth said: > > "We call on SEC Chairman Arthur Levitt, who is > universally regarded as the leading friend of the small > investor, to reject these anti-shareholder rules. The > SEC staff has cobbled together an obstacle course of > impediments that, when taken together, would give > big business the ability to wear down, sidetrack or > derail virtually any shareholder resolution. The result > is a situation very similar to building a bomb: take the > elements that go into the explosive device in isolation > and they don't raise a lot of alarm, but put them > together in the hands of someone who intends to use it > and you've got a devastating combination that can do > real harm." > > PRESERVING SHAREHOLDER RIGHTS: A BOTTOMLINE > ISSUE > > Coalition members emphasized that their fight to preserve >shareholder > rights is ultimately about the bottom line. With recent >multi-million dollar > judgements against Denny's, Home Deport, Texaco and many others > illustrating the danger of unchecked corporate misconduct, the >need for > major oversight by concerned shareholders is stronger now than >ever. > > "This has nothing to do with whether you are a liberal or a > conservative," said Timothy Smith, Executive Director of the >Interfaith > Center on Corporate Responsibility (ICCR). "Any investor who > believes that shareholder resolutions are important tools for > promoting corporate accountability and good corporate > governance will oppose the SEC's proposal. CEOs never would > have acted so quickly on such diverse issues as responsible > corporate governance, Northern Ireland, sweatshops, China, > tobacco, violence in the media, workplace discrimination, >pollution > and corruption without the outside pressure of shareholder > resolutions. Corporate mismanagement of such key issues can > seriously effect both a company's reputation and profitability." > > In a letter submitted September 18, 1997 commenting on the SEC >staff's > proposals, out-going Commissioner Steven M. Wallman noted: "_ the > practical impact of what can be accomplished through shareholders > appropriately engaged in their corporation's affairs is enormous. >Part of > what makes our economy strong and our corporations successful is >our > system of active shareholders engaged in debate over matters of > concern. And those matters consistently have included issues >relating to > corporate governance, workplace practices and social issues." > > HOW THE SEC STAFF PROPOSAL WOULD GUT > SHAREHOLDER RIGHTS > > Members of the coalition have serious concerns that the various > provisions of the SEC staff plan would be exploited in a >systematic > fashion by corporate America to shut down shareholder actions. For > example, key coalition members warned about the following >provisions: > > Wide-open loophole for corporate misconduct. Currently, > companies can exclude shareholder resolutions if the >operations in > question account for less than 5 percent of a company's >assets > and earnings ... unless the issue at stake is "otherwise > significantly related to the company." In proposing to switch > to a purely economic standard of $10 million of annual >revenue for > large companies and 3 percent of revenues or assets for >smaller > companies, the SEC staff proposes to create a loophole under > which a company could kill shareholder resolutions which >cannot > be quantified in hard, cold economic terms. If such a >provision had > been in effect in recent years, the anti-apartheid divestment > movement, opposition to tobacco sales to children, and >proposals > concerning child labor and fair employment in Northern >Ireland > almost certainly would have been ruled out as topics for > shareholder resolutions, particularly early on before hard > economic data were available. Further, the new provision >would > likely create a perverse incentive to "outsource" corporate > misconduct, such as exploiting slave labor in other nations. > Corporations could position themselves beyond the reach of > shareholder resolutions, so long as they carried out their > misconduct through vendors, subcontractors and other >supposedly > arm's-length relationships. As the recent problems at >Denny's, > Home Depot and Texaco illustrate, even a small amount of > corporate misconduct can have enormous ramifications in terms >of > reputation and the financial bottom line. > > "Judge, jury and executioner" status granted to big > business. For shareholder rights proponents, there is a great >deal > of concern about a SEC-proposed rule change that would allow > resolutions to be excluded if the corporation claims it is >intended > to advance a personal claim or "grievance." Under current >rules, > that decision is in the somewhat objective hands of the SEC. > Under the proposal, the SEC has the option to bounce the most > complicated claims back to the company, allowing the company >to > unilaterally omit the shareholder resolution in question. >This > dramatic and unwarranted increase in corporate ability to >erase > shareholder resolutions is able to function as a death >sentence for > resolutions submitted by unions, religious groups, socially > concerned investor groups and other individuals. Companies > already invoke the existing "grievance" provision in their >efforts to > block legitimate shareholder resolutions they don't want >presented > for public debate. Under the Commission's proposal, big >business > would be emboldened to do so more freely. Shareholders would > be forced to take their concerns to court and engage in a >fight that > would involve entirely uneven legal resources. > > Pulling the plug on most shareholder resolutions after their > first year. The period of time over which a shareholder >advocacy > campaign builds up a head of steam often takes several years. > During this shareholder education interval, shareholder votes >for > the proposals may initially be modest, as was the case with > American companies doing business with the racist apartheid > regime in South Africa and those peddling tobacco products to > children. Under the SEC proposal, the current percentage of >votes > required for resubmission would be boosted dramatically > doubled in the first two years and tripled by year three >(from 3, 6 > and 10 percent over three years to 6, 15 and 30 percent). In > practical terms, the pernicious effect of this SEC-proposed >change > would be to kill most shareholder resolution campaigns in the > cradle after their first year, before the process has had >time to > germinate. > > In addition to three key provisions outlined above, coalition >members > also expressed concerns about other sections of the SEC proposal. >For > example, one portion of the package would create a virtually >impossible > "override" provision under which a resolution could be put in >front of > shareholders if the owners of 3 percent of all outstanding shares >agree to > support it. While coalition members are intrigued by the concept >of an > automatic override provision, a substantially lower threshold for > automatic consideration would be necessary to make it practically >useful. > They noted that the 3 percent level would be virtually impossible >to > achieve with any Fortune 500 company. Even a threshold of just > one-quarter of 1 percent (1/4%) would require an average of $80 > million to put a resolution on the ballot of one of these large >firms; 3 > percent would require lining up about $1 billion in shares. > > Bill Patterson, Director, Office of Investments, AFL-CIO said: > "This is apparently the SEC staff's idea of Christmas in October >for > managers who don't want to deal with the nagging conscience of > their shareholders. The SEC has proposed a complicated package > of provisions that individually may seem innocuous, but, when > combined and put in the hands of big business, would work to seal > the vault on meaningful shareholder advocacy. Personally, I > cannot believe that Chairman Levitt and the other commissioners > want their legacy to be a lethal blow to shareholder rights in > America." > > TO SUBMIT COMMENTS / GET MORE INFORMATION > > Comments on the SEC rule proposal should be submitted by November > 24, 1997 to the following address: Jonathan G. Katz, Secretary, US > Securities and Exchange Commission, 450 5th Street, NW, >Washington, > DC, 20549. Three copies of each comment letter should be sent and > should refer to File No. S7-25-97. Electronically filed comments > may be submitted and the following e-mail address >rule-comments@sec.gov > and should include the file number in the subject line. Comments > already filed electronically may be read at the SEC Web site at > www.sec.gov/rules/proposed/34-39093.htm > > Organizations wishing to join the coalition may contact Elizabeth > Elliott McGeveran, Social Investment Forum, 202-872-5310. > Updated information on coalition activities and statements will be > available at www.socialinvest.org/sec > > FOR MORE INFORMATION, CALL: Erin Mantz or Scott Stapf, > 703/276-1116 > > For more information visit the Forum's SEC News & Alert site > > # # # > > > >Stephen Viederman,President >Jessie Smith Noyes Foundation >6 East 39th Street >New York, NY 10016 >212 684 6577 >212 689 6549 fax >stevev@igc.apc.org > Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) Department of English Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:35:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: James Laughlin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If I am reading Maria's response right, the part that's hard to swallow has nothing to do with whether Pound's assessment of Laughlin's talent was accurate or not. The annoying thing is the hierarchically-based arrogance that made Pound feel entitled to attempt to coopt someone else's life that way. And the really annoying thing is that this is the kind of move that has gotten so many male poets published, no matter what the gender of the coopted ones; this is. I had the exact same visceral reaction to the anecdote that Maria reported. And no amount of rationalization about Laughlin's talent--or the eventual size of his impact on the current state of literary affairs--will change the truth that gives rise to such visceral reactions. Annie nd hierPound'sassessment Maybe what Maria is responding to is not the fact that Pound told s>Hi Maria & Pat-- >Of course, the "Mauberley" comment is directed by a publisher at a poet, >and relates, not to the quality of the poet's work, but the very >desirability of pursuing poetry as a genre--it's simply not economically >rewarding. Pound never told Jay Laughlin not to write cuz he wouldn't get >rich or make a living at it, but because he believed that Laughlin simply >didn't have the talent or sensibility ever to be very good at it. (I >think he was more or less right--I've read a lot of Laughlin's poetry, and >I can't recall a single one of the poems that sticks in my mind as >particularly >good. I suppose it would be way uncool for me to characterize his work as >relentlessly _minor_, but most of it falls right into the category of >personal, voice-based lyric that most of us on the list seem to dislike >and find retrograde. What I _do_ find intermittently interesting is his >typewriter-space based prosody--each line determined by the number of >spaces, rather than syllables or words. But that doesn't keep me reading >the poems.) > You draw a fascinating parallel, Maria, but what's the >significance? Pound tells Laughlin not to write; Emerson leaves Emma >Lazarus out of Parnassus. So what? The latter may well be a case of >sexism, the former certainly isn't. Does his treatment of Laughlin mean >we should discount >Pound's immense aid and sponsorship of younger poets? Go back and reread >the letters to Mary Barnard and Iris Barry in Pound's _Selected Letters_ >if you want to say something about the gendered basis of Pound's >mentorship practices. (Of course, it may be a class thing--Pound >dismissing Laughlin's work as a rich boy's dilletantism--but I suspect >that we're much less willing to rush to the defence of the well-endowed >minority.) Sorry, but I find it odd that, in a moment when everyone is >striving to say nicenesses about Laughlin's position in 20th-century >poetry publishing, you want to bend over backwards to make Pound's >dismissal of his work somehow symbolic of male poets' squashing female >poets' talents. Sadly, it happens all the time--but it didn't happen >here, and Laughlin's publishing track record shows that, of small press >publishers in the US, he wasn't particularly guilty of that sin. >best, >Mark Scroggins > >On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: > >> Interesting observation, Maria. Pound was, I suppose, nothing if not >> patronizing. This tendency to lord it over "lesser mortals" seems over to >> time to have become magnified into his psychosis. Funny thing is though, I >> can't think of a better word to describe the institutionalized sexism you >> allude to. And this remark from Pound to JL by the same poet who satirized >> such patronizing attitudes in "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly": "... and give up >> poetry, my boy, there's no money in it." >> >> Patrick Pritchett >> ---------- >> From: Maria Damon >> To: POETICS >> Subject: Re: James Laughlin >> Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:06PM >> >> >> a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing >> company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma >> and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing >> me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a >> certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not >> so explicitly... >> >> At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >> >Patrick Pritchett writes -- >> > >> >> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >> >> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >> >> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >> >> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >> >> The rest is history, as they say. . . . >> > >> Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) Department of English Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:12:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: James Laughlin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Re: Pound and Laughlin, Pond has never been a favorite of mine and I must plead ignorance of Lauglin, but would say that if Laughlin had followed Pound's advice and stuck just with just publishing, then it would mean that Laughlin would have either realized his heart wasn't in writing or he was a weak willed individual easily swayed by Pound and others. In any event, if he had chosen only to publishe, would the literary world have missed his written work? Jerry Fletcher ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 00:16:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jena Osman wrote: > > For a workshop in visual poetry: I'm looking for good examples of visual > poetry on the internet. I'm already familiar with the amazing ubuweb site. > Please send URL's of other favorites. Thanks, > > Jena Osman > josman@acad.ursinus.edu jena: reading yr request last week reminded me that I hadnt put any visual work up for awhile so I sat down & put this piece together. one hundred villages by miekal and http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/logokon.html ...village life at its most binary... -- @#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@#@# Dreamtime Village website: http://net22.com/dreamtime QAZINGULAZA: And/Was/Wakest website: http://net22.com/qazingulaza e-mail for DT & And/Was: dtv@mwt.net ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:56:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: James Laughlin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Overall I think Pound was an amazing artist who was also a creep. Laughlin's range of artists - from Osamu Dazai to Blaise Cendrars to H.D. to Mishima to an early anthology of language poetry is simply amazing. New Directions is great, and I shutter to think that such a publishing house wouldn't exist. So whatever it was Pound or Laughlin (and I would think Laughlin was simply a genius of an editor) we should all just pause for a second and give thanks to the spirit of Laughlin. And really, I don't think we should give Pound too much credit in regards to Laughlin, New Directions, etc. ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:58:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Miekal, I visited your visual poem and found it most interesting. The tying together of the visual and moving images with the written offers a powerful means of expressing. Unfortunately, I was unable to stay connected long enough to load all the images, my service provider's local dial access is having problems and keeps dropping me. Have you, or anyone you are aware of, integrated sound (either music, noises, or reading of the poetry, even a combination) together? Unfortunately, visual and/or sound integrated poetry awaits faster connection speeds before it will work well, I'm afraid. Also, we all need more bandwidth. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 05:38:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Laughlin/Pound Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Laughlin surely does raise the spectre of Pound once again, if only to remind us of how much of Pound's work was simply putting people in touch with one another. Listening to the Laughlin obit on All Things Considered the other night, who do I hear but ol' Ez hisself, reading "Mauberly," which the narrator stated "could have been written about Laughlin." While I tend to think of New Directions as a publisher who ran out of gas by the early 1960s (the recent additions to its list of writers, even including Creeley nearly a quarter of a century ago, have for the most part been already established figures), its impact in carrying modernism into the 1940s and 50s cannot be underestimated. Good to know that he provided for the continuation of the press. Ron Ron Silliman 262 Orchard Road Paoli, PA 19301-1116 (610) 251-2214 (610) 293-6099 (o) (610) 293-5506 (fax) rsillima@ix.netcom.com rsillima@tssc.com http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/silliman/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:21:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Grep Sondheim Subject: Stupid Jennifer's Exercises! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Style Exercises (As I jain a lacal writing graup in Fukuoka) "mare velcra" binds kanji ta the page, arrange radicals, rage acrass ar kill katakana in stage ane, ar twa, unbind, ar rearrange: the plague af language gauges spiked ar pierced imaginary: Hakusai wauld say ghasts, unreading, blaated killed acrass the gaad exercise af style "parachute" I fell ah ah ah paar me. It wrapped everywhere araund my eyes tawards the graund, tawards that clath I refuse ta name. Braken air Cracked claud milled ar lathed caught in the thraat - I wan't name yau! I wan't! "umbilical chards," tethered ta the mather, Heiner Muller blahblah tethered ta the ather mather in same cultures, I'd swallaw them hale I need ta exercise my rights. I need ta make the canstitutian. I need ta write the fareign tangue. Gaijin repraduce at an absurd rate, I hear they fuck like anyane else, but I dan't believe it. What can be dane with the animals that cangregate an a paetics af exchange and incanceivable denauement? There's a bar, Rumaurs. There's a barrier. I learn ta write again! Sure, I'll take aut my a's! __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: robert drake Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jerry E. Fletcher writ: >Have you, or anyone you are aware of, integrated sound (either music, >noises, or reading of the poetry, even a combination) together? >Unfortunately, visual and/or sound integrated poetry awaits faster >connection speeds before it will work well, I'm afraid. Also, we all >need more bandwidth. there are a couple ov recent pieces on th WrEyeTings Scratchpad site http://www.burningpress.org/wreyeting/index.html that have sound components: Bill Marsh's "the oo if" and my own "radioz". th pad is exactly a kind of workshop/laboratory fr addressing technical (speed/bandwidth) problems, as well aesthetic; if you have any time to check out the pieces, the authors wd appreciate reports of yr results... luigi ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:21:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yes this is pretty much on target annie, a visceral response to a scenario that was oh so familiar and painful, questions of "talent" aside. At 10:35 PM -0500 11/15/97, Annie Finch wrote: >If I am reading Maria's response right, the part that's hard to swallow >has nothing to do with whether Pound's assessment of Laughlin's talent was >accurate or not. The annoying thing is the hierarchically-based arrogance >that made Pound feel entitled to attempt to coopt someone else's life that >way. And the really annoying thing is that this is the kind of move that >has gotten so many male poets published, no matter what the gender of the >coopted ones; this is. I had the exact same visceral reaction to the >anecdote that Maria reported. And no amount of rationalization about >Laughlin's talent--or the eventual size of his impact on the current state >of literary affairs--will change the truth that gives rise to such visceral >reactions. > >Annie > > >nd hierPound'sassessment Maybe what Maria is responding to is not the fact >that Pound told s>Hi Maria & Pat-- >>Of course, the "Mauberley" comment is directed by a publisher at a poet, >>and relates, not to the quality of the poet's work, but the very >>desirability of pursuing poetry as a genre--it's simply not economically >>rewarding. Pound never told Jay Laughlin not to write cuz he wouldn't get >>rich or make a living at it, but because he believed that Laughlin simply >>didn't have the talent or sensibility ever to be very good at it. (I >>think he was more or less right--I've read a lot of Laughlin's poetry, and >>I can't recall a single one of the poems that sticks in my mind as >>particularly >>good. I suppose it would be way uncool for me to characterize his work as >>relentlessly _minor_, but most of it falls right into the category of >>personal, voice-based lyric that most of us on the list seem to dislike >>and find retrograde. What I _do_ find intermittently interesting is his >>typewriter-space based prosody--each line determined by the number of >>spaces, rather than syllables or words. But that doesn't keep me reading >>the poems.) >> You draw a fascinating parallel, Maria, but what's the >>significance? Pound tells Laughlin not to write; Emerson leaves Emma >>Lazarus out of Parnassus. So what? The latter may well be a case of >>sexism, the former certainly isn't. Does his treatment of Laughlin mean >>we should discount >>Pound's immense aid and sponsorship of younger poets? Go back and reread >>the letters to Mary Barnard and Iris Barry in Pound's _Selected Letters_ >>if you want to say something about the gendered basis of Pound's >>mentorship practices. (Of course, it may be a class thing--Pound >>dismissing Laughlin's work as a rich boy's dilletantism--but I suspect >>that we're much less willing to rush to the defence of the well-endowed >>minority.) Sorry, but I find it odd that, in a moment when everyone is >>striving to say nicenesses about Laughlin's position in 20th-century >>poetry publishing, you want to bend over backwards to make Pound's >>dismissal of his work somehow symbolic of male poets' squashing female >>poets' talents. Sadly, it happens all the time--but it didn't happen >>here, and Laughlin's publishing track record shows that, of small press >>publishers in the US, he wasn't particularly guilty of that sin. >>best, >>Mark Scroggins >> >>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >> >>> Interesting observation, Maria. Pound was, I suppose, nothing if not >>> patronizing. This tendency to lord it over "lesser mortals" seems over to >>> time to have become magnified into his psychosis. Funny thing is though, I >>> can't think of a better word to describe the institutionalized sexism you >>> allude to. And this remark from Pound to JL by the same poet who satirized >>> such patronizing attitudes in "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly": "... and give up >>> poetry, my boy, there's no money in it." >>> >>> Patrick Pritchett >>> ---------- >>> From: Maria Damon >>> To: POETICS >>> Subject: Re: James Laughlin >>> Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:06PM >>> >>> >>> a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing >>> company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma >>> and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing >>> me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a >>> certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not >>> so explicitly... >>> >>> At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >>> >Patrick Pritchett writes -- >>> > >>> >> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >>> >> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >>> >> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >>> >> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >>> >> The rest is history, as they say. . . . >>> > >>> > >Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) >Department of English >Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:23:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: James Laughlin In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:56 PM -0800 11/15/97, Tosh wrote: >Overall I think Pound was an amazing artist who was also a creep. >Laughlin's range of artists - from Osamu Dazai to Blaise Cendrars to H.D. >to Mishima to an early anthology of language poetry is simply amazing. New >Directions is great, and I shutter to think that such a publishing house >wouldn't exist. So whatever it was Pound or Laughlin (and I would think >Laughlin was simply a genius of an editor) we should all just pause for a >second and give thanks to the spirit of Laughlin. And really, I don't >think we should give Pound too much credit in regards to Laughlin, New >Directions, etc. yes indeed, tosh. yr assessments seem pretty right on to me. how 'bout an update on tamtam? > >----------------- >Tosh Berman >TamTam Books >---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:15:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: Re: visual poetry on the internet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry E. Fletcher wrote: > > Miekal, > Have you, or anyone you are aware of, integrated sound (either music, > noises, or reading of the poetry, even a combination) together? > Unfortunately, visual and/or sound integrated poetry awaits faster > connection speeds before it will work well, I'm afraid. Also, we all > need more bandwidth. jerry visit 100 villages http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/logokon.html again & thus it will squeak m and ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:43:11 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball In-Reply-To: <346EE3EF.2FE1@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Last night at the winter league game between the Honolulu Sharks and the Maui Stingrays, the former Philly Phanatic (now sporting the rather dull moniker of "Sport") was spotted buffing list member Bill Luoma's bolohead not once, but twice. On the second go-round, he applied squeegee and a tiny plunger to help him in his task. Bill was then presented with an autographed card of Sport, but not the one showing the mascot pinching a base coach's bum--that one was strangely reserved for the under 10 crowd. But by far the best venue for baseball on this island (Juliana, Bill, and I will attest to this) is the choicely named Hans L'Orange Park in Waipahu, where the West Oahu Cane Fires play their home games. At that park, a collection is taken up from the crowd for the private use of any Cane Fires player who hits one home run, lidat! Susan No poetry but in baseball. ______________________________________________ Susan M. Schultz Dept. of English 1733 Donaghho Road University of Hawai'i-Manoa Honolulu, HI 96822 http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/schultz http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/ezines/tinfish ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:12:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: ANNOUNCING ESSEX MAGAZINE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ESSEX SSEXE SEXES EXESS XESSE ESSEX is an international journal of poetry and word art (reviews too) named after a local pub in Buffalo it's everything a small magazine can be. ESSEX 1/1 ("Isomorphically Yours"): 7 X 7 inch folded and stapled (4 tip-ins) Christian Bok, Rose Withers, cris cheek, Scott Pound, William R. Howe, John M. Bennett, Michael Basinski, Wendy Kramer, Owen F. Smith, and Darren Wershler-Henry. ESSEX 1/2: 18 pages let loose in a 9 X 12 envelope and a lunch bag full of tip-ins Jeff Derksen, Steve McCaffery, Karen Mac Cormack, Tara Azzopardi, Deanna Ferguson, Lisa Robertson, Stephen Cain, Peter Jaeger, Jarl Jirgins, William R. Howe, and Scott Pound. ESSEX 1/3: INTERNATIONAL CONCRETE ISSUE (forthcoming) 7 X 7 with fold-out pages bpNichol (previously unpublished early works) Ferdinand Aguar Steve McCaffery (never before published material from Carnival: Panel Three in colour) Christian Bok AND MUCH MORE! ________________________________________________________________________________ Please send inquiries, submissions of recent work, and subscription requests to: Scott Pound or Bill Howe 83 Macdonell Ave. 42 Essex Street Toronto, ON M6R 2A4 Buffalo, NY 14213 CANADA USA spound@interlog.com ____________________________________________________ Individual Issues......................... $ 5.00 US 5-Issue Subscription...................... $20.00 US ____________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 16:28:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B. Taylor" Subject: Pound, Moore, Laughlin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" an odd crossing of Marianne Moore's famous opener of "Poetry," as the review in todays NYT Book Review of her letters reveals that despite her lifelong opposition to antisemitism and her deploring of his positions, she did in fact personally like Pound. on 11/15 Burt Kimmelman writes > To mirror people >like marianne moore and more recently alfred kazin, let me say that i >too dislike pound--but i also recognize his genius, and as a literary >historian of a sort his huge influence on 20th century poetry and criticism. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:41:09 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: Laughlin/Pound In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 16 Nov 1997 05:38:43 -0600 from I also happened to hear the voice of Pound reciting on the J. Laughlin piece on NPR. & the strange thing was, later that night I watched an early Satyajit Ray film called "Devi", which includes a brief scene in which the senile, goddess-obsessed patriarch recites from memory some sacred Sanskrit verse to his upstart son - & he sounds like Ol' Ez. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 10:55:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: James Laughlin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just to insert something into the discussion, peripherally. Eliot had a different take on manipulative mentor mania. As I remember it, he once said that whenever a young writer asked him whether he or she should become a writer he responded "No." His explanation was that if someone was going to be a writer then he or she would discount what he (Eliot) said as being stupid and go on writing anyway, and if that person was not committed to the task then he had saved them a lot of grief. Makes me wonder what didn't get written because of that. Harold (At 10:35 PM -0500 11/15/97, Annie Finch wrote: >If I am reading Maria's response right, the part that's hard to swallow >has nothing to do with whether Pound's assessment of Laughlin's talent was >accurate or not. The annoying thing is the hierarchically-based arrogance >that made Pound feel entitled to attempt to coopt someone else's life that >way. And the really annoying thing is that this is the kind of move that >has gotten so many male poets published, no matter what the gender of the >coopted ones; this is. I had the exact same visceral reaction to the >anecdote that Maria reported. And no amount of rationalization about >Laughlin's talent--or the eventual size of his impact on the current state >of literary affairs--will change the truth that gives rise to such visceral >reactions. > >Annie > > >nd hierPound'sassessment Maybe what Maria is responding to is not the fact >that Pound told s>Hi Maria & Pat-- >>Of course, the "Mauberley" comment is directed by a publisher at a poet, >>and relates, not to the quality of the poet's work, but the very >>desirability of pursuing poetry as a genre--it's simply not economically >>rewarding. Pound never told Jay Laughlin not to write cuz he wouldn't get >>rich or make a living at it, but because he believed that Laughlin simply >>didn't have the talent or sensibility ever to be very good at it. (I >>think he was more or less right--I've read a lot of Laughlin's poetry, and >>I can't recall a single one of the poems that sticks in my mind as >>particularly >>good. I suppose it would be way uncool for me to characterize his work as >>relentlessly _minor_, but most of it falls right into the category of >>personal, voice-based lyric that most of us on the list seem to dislike >>and find retrograde. What I _do_ find intermittently interesting is his >>typewriter-space based prosody--each line determined by the number of >>spaces, rather than syllables or words. But that doesn't keep me reading >>the poems.) >> You draw a fascinating parallel, Maria, but what's the >>significance? Pound tells Laughlin not to write; Emerson leaves Emma >>Lazarus out of Parnassus. So what? The latter may well be a case of >>sexism, the former certainly isn't. Does his treatment of Laughlin mean >>we should discount >>Pound's immense aid and sponsorship of younger poets? Go back and reread >>the letters to Mary Barnard and Iris Barry in Pound's _Selected Letters_ >>if you want to say something about the gendered basis of Pound's >>mentorship practices. (Of course, it may be a class thing--Pound >>dismissing Laughlin's work as a rich boy's dilletantism--but I suspect >>that we're much less willing to rush to the defence of the well-endowed >>minority.) Sorry, but I find it odd that, in a moment when everyone is >>striving to say nicenesses about Laughlin's position in 20th-century >>poetry publishing, you want to bend over backwards to make Pound's >>dismissal of his work somehow symbolic of male poets' squashing female >>poets' talents. Sadly, it happens all the time--but it didn't happen >>here, and Laughlin's publishing track record shows that, of small press >>publishers in the US, he wasn't particularly guilty of that sin. >>best, >>Mark Scroggins >> >>On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >> >>> Interesting observation, Maria. Pound was, I suppose, nothing if not >>> patronizing. This tendency to lord it over "lesser mortals" seems over to >>> time to have become magnified into his psychosis. Funny thing is though, I >>> can't think of a better word to describe the institutionalized sexism you >>> allude to. And this remark from Pound to JL by the same poet who satirized >>> such patronizing attitudes in "Hugh Selwyn Mauberly": "... and give up >>> poetry, my boy, there's no money in it." >>> >>> Patrick Pritchett >>> ---------- >>> From: Maria Damon >>> To: POETICS >>> Subject: Re: James Laughlin >>> Date: Friday, November 14, 1997 12:06PM >>> >>> >>> a very informative post, and one that makes me think twice. a publishing >>> company that was started because an aging fascist with enormous charisma >>> and clout said, you should quit writing and devote yourself to publishing >>> me and my friends???? sounds uncomfortably familiar, only usually a >>> certain gender difference plays a role, which it doesn't here, at least not >>> so explicitly... >>> >>> At 8:23 PM -0400 11/13/97, David R. Israel wrote: >>> >Patrick Pritchett writes -- >>> > >>> >> The story goes, as Laughlin himself relates in his marvelous _Pound >>> >> As Wuz_, that he went to sit at the feet of the master in Rapallo in >>> >> the late 30's. Pound, however, advised him to give up poetry and >>> >> start a publishing company that would print Pound and Pound's pals. >>> >> The rest is history, as they say. . . . >>> > >>> > >Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) >Department of English >Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:08:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: quote for the day MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit William Burmeister wrote: >The short time traces have always been unavoidable in poetry (even >desirable I might think; a lot more than we can quantify gets communicated >in short spaces). This is subtlety and something for poets of the now and the >future to develop. No, I did not mean subtlety. I meant that the discrepancy between traditions of culture (and also of poetic cultures) can be so great that when work moves from one to the other it is completely misread, and that this mis-reading then becomes the code by which the piece is discussed. An intended revolution is not going to take place this way. There will be a revolution, but it will be through the traces, and moreso, and this is what concerns me, through the cultural biases which led to the misrepresentation in the first place. The piece is not being read, in other words, only the response to the piece is being read, and that response consists only in the way in which the piece fits into established cultural criteria. Now, this seems to me to be the way things work, and it also seems to me that problems can occur when we insist on reading an unreasoned response as if it is a reasoned one. William was also responding to: >When we shift to a different type of >text (from conservative poetry to lang-po, for instance, or from Disneyland >sound-bites to T.S. Eliot) we will get messed up, because we will process >the signal automatically, but we will be processing it incorrectly. It will >be unreadable. A reader willing to do the work will correct this, by >switching to manual processing, then building up a new and more >sophisticated processing system, which can eventually process the material correctly. William, you said: >And a quiet revolution has taken place. Yes, but only if we have a reader willing to do the work, and my point was that it is easy to have a reader not willing to do the work, because the work has already been dismissed, not out of malice, but because of contrasting languages. When I suggested there could be a poetry of the traces, I was thinking of a way of getting around this problem of mis-reading (or, rather non-reading) by using the material of that non-reading as the basis of the poem. Then again, maybe that's what you meant, too. Best, Harold Rhenisch ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:09:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: James Laughlin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Will Hugh Kenner's life and work, when he dies, be similarly reduced to his >visiting Pound at the urging of Marshall McLuhan? Na, just as Pound's wasn't reduced to the visit he made to honour Owen Scawen Blunt, or the way he visited Yeats The Great on a quick Grand Tour of Europe that kind of s t r e t c h e d out. Harold Rhenisch ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:21:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Pound, Moore, Laughlin B Taylor et al.: I did not mean to imply that M Moore did not like Pound, just for the record. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:59:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kali Tal Subject: Heath anthology, Lazer, Lauter... Comments: cc: lauter@mail.cc.trincoll.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" POETICS folk... I'm forwarding this to the list for Paul Lauter, who has been following the discussion second-hand. He asked me to post the following response to the list. Please send your answers to him directly or remember to cc the post to Paul if you send it to POETICS because Paul isn't a POETICS subscriber. Kali _________________________ >Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 22:40:17 -0500 (EST) >>From: Paul Lauter > >Kali Tal forwarded Hank Lazer's post regarding contemporary poetry. I >think Hank's description of what is in the Heath, and what is not, is >reasonably accurate, though I might disagree with how he characterizes it. > However that might be, I surely do want to second his suggestion >that people write to me about their sense of what the anthology should >contain. It's important, however, to recognize that--whatever else it >is--the Heath is a teaching text. So it's important from my perspective >to know how people actually teach work that falls outside the range we >have included. > The best address for me is e-mail: >I'll certainly forward posts to other editors. And I should add that >while the 3rd edition has just come out, we are (believe it or. . .) >already thinking about the 4th. paul Kali Tal Lecturer, University of Arizona new WORD order PO Box 13746, Tucson AZ 85732-3746 http://www.new-word.com 520-790-9218 (phone & fax) "Web Design For Smart People" Sixties Project kali@kalital.com http://jefferson.village.virginia.edu/sixties http://www.kalital.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:29:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Pound, Moore, Laughlin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Insofar as Pound goes, though I would not be one to support his facism, I do think the 13 years he spent locked in the hospital after the war was more than a bit excessive punishiment. As to his poetry...its punctuated with greatness, but also often dissolves in nothingness. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:52:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob Hardin Subject: Grief to come In-Reply-To: <199711170501.AAA15308@mx.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" RIP, 1997: Burroughs, Laughlin, and now, barring a miracle, Kathy Acker (b. April 18, 1948). This is truly a sad and plangent year. Emergate quandprimum, amici in ars morbi, Rob Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:59:14 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jay Schwartz Subject: Re: Grief to come MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob- Please fill me (us) in on what is wrong with Kathy Acker. I am truly sad to hear of this... Jay Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:04:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Grief to come MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob Hardin wrote: > > RIP, 1997: Burroughs, Laughlin, and now, barring a miracle, Kathy Acker (b. > April 18, 1948). > This is truly a sad and plangent year. > > Emergate quandprimum, amici in ars morbi, > > Rob Hardin What, no requiem for Allen Ginsberg? Burroughs, tho, had pretty much lost it. If Acker is on death's bed, that is a tragedy at only 49... Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:38:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: tragedy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a tragedy is a child prodigy dead of rosin poisoning in Carnegie Hall on New Years Eve. A premature death is terribly sad, terribly disturbing, unspeakably factual, perhaps a catastrophe, and surely for those most intimately concerned, a catastrophe, a disaster; but it is not a tragedy. In the presence of death, let us be true to our words. I myself find this news incredible, which is perhaps what makes Jerry Fletcher utter the term "tragedy". Certainly to me she is so much younger, that I find her condition dizzying. It feels like "only the other day" that her home-published "Tales of the Black Tarantula" began slipping thru my mailslot. Little did we suspect then what fame & notoriety she would happily achieve. She "went for broke" in a big way, an utterly american way, & people loved her for it. And still do. And who knows, maybe she will pull thru. The word I heard last week, in San Diego, was that she is in a clinic in Tiajuana, where the less-stringent laws of Mexico permit more venturesome treatments than one can obtain here. She has metastisized cancer, I heard; a tough prognosis, but where there's life, who can surrender possibility? I surely hope she isn't on this List! David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:24:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: James Laughlin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable . > >yes indeed, tosh. yr assessments seem pretty right on to me. how 'bout an >update on tamtam? >> Well, now that you ask... TamTam is just waiting for designs, etc. The first book will be Serge Gainsbourg's Evgu=E9nie Sokolov, and then Boris Vian's I Shall Spit on Your Graves, and Guy Debord's Considerations on the Assassination of G=E9rard Lebovici will follow shortly. After that more fun stuff! ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:03:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Yasusada ... Watten ... Social texas In-Reply-To: <34700068.5307@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A catalog of literary hoaxes covers the front page of the second section of this past weekend's Financial Times, and list-subjects Yasusada, Ern Malley and Alan Sokal make up the bulk of the second half of the article. Way to go team! Demidenko, Paul Theroux and Ossian, hoaxers not yet broached here are touched on, and Chatterton and Bob Hershon's public school students are left out. Just thought I'd mention it, since Kent Johnson seems to have taken a vacation from the Yasusada updates. Rather than pick apart where Watten claims to diverge from Bernstein (and by swerving out of that collision path, to avoid assessing the accuracy of his paraphrase and the validity of either set of remarks, more work than a Tuesday-after-holiday) I'll just register my amusement at the Grenier / Coolidge split, which Watten predicates on a reading of Grenier's "hate speech" as requiring a description of some instantaneous burst of thought (apparently very close to what Ginsberg late in his teaching described 'first thought best thought' as meaning), and also on a comparison of Coolidge to Henry Ford. Leaving aside Watten's remark that Ford's development of the assembly line was "idiot simple", and letting sit like a heap of dung the perpetuation of that sort of academic ad hominem moronism, I'd like to ask the list what distinction Watten is making when he refers to some texts as "social texts". I'm aware that this is the name of a (recently hoaxed) journal edited by Andrew Ross. Then what do I do. Is this listserv a social text? Then are anonymous or unpublished works anti-social texts? oooooooooo baby baby. It was pleasant to put together words and think there was something post-industrialist about it. Kyrgystan, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:38:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Burt Kimmelman -@NJIT" Subject: Re: Heath anthology, Lazer, Lauter... Comments: cc: paul.lauter@trincoll.edu To Paul Lauter, First of all thank you for allowing this discussion of the Heath to include you as its editor. Now, that said, allow me to submit the idea that, perhaps today more than ever, an anthology is a powerful influence on the literary canon, given the logistics college instructors usually face--much in the way that dictionaries legitimize usages (a recent student of mine pointed out to me that he very well COULD spell "through" as "thru" inasmuch as his dictionaryy, a Webster if I recall, albeit maybe not a direct descendent of Noah Webster, had "thru" as an alternative spelling of the word). I can't count how many times i've had to exclude important poets from courses because I couldn't really ask my students to buy these poets' books AND an anthology. Burt Kimmelman ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:44:28 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: Yasusada ... Watten ... Social texas In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:03:16 -0500 from On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:03:16 -0500 Jordan Davis said: >moronism, I'd like to ask the list what distinction Watten is making when >he refers to some texts as "social texts". I'm aware that this is the name >of a (recently hoaxed) journal edited by Andrew Ross. Then what do I do. >Is this listserv a social text? Then are anonymous or unpublished works >anti-social texts? oooooooooo baby baby. It was pleasant to put together >words and think there was something post-industrialist about it. If the social is a text, is the text a social? Can we meet with the Methodists on Saturday afternoon and not talk about literature? nostalgically, Cleanth Brooks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:20:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: ESSEX Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In the 20 or so hours since i posted notice of ESSEX magazine the response has been overwhelming, and I very quickly realized that i forgot to outline payment details. cheque or money-order in US funds payable to either Scott Pound or William R. Howe. In lieu of payment we will also accept trades (of whatever you have) and/or items for the ESSEX Studios archive at 42 Essex Street. Many Thanks! Scott ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:49:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Border's Books/Union Petition In-Reply-To: <971114200642_-1139478120@mrin86.mail.aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bravo to the poets involved with supporting this effort. In essence, Standard, the situation began just because of a basic organizing effort. As *always* with labor struggle these days, health benefits have a lot to do with with why the workers want a union...But so do wages, dignity, basic control of their own lives, basic rights. The issue is essentially the right to organize: the most basic right there is. laboriously, Mark P. atlanta On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, P.Standard Schaefer wrote: > To the Poetics List: > > I got the petition e-mailed to me so I thought I'd post it so people could > know about what's going on with Border's Books. Essentially, they're > bullying the workers and threatening to fire them, ect., should they try to > organize. I'm under the impression health benefits are part of the concern. > > Send mail/signed copies to Mr. Lichenstein. > > Nelson Lichenstein > Department of History > U. of Virginia > Charlottesville, VA 22903 > > We hereby demand that Border's, Inc. bargain in good faith and negotiate a > fair and equitable contract with their employees who exercised their legal > right by voting to be represented by the United Food and Commercial > Workers, AFL-CIO. > > Further we demand that Borders, Inc. cease and desist from all actions > intended to intimidate, or demean its employees; that Borders, Inc. affirm > the employees' legal right to form and join a Union, and remain neutral in > employees' efforts to organize. > > Paul Vangelisti > Writer & teacher > Los Angeles > > Robert Crosson > Writer > Los Angeles > > Standard Schaefer > Writer > Pasadena > > Evan Calbi > Writer/Editor > Los Angeles > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:55:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: social MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [ was, Re: Yasusada ... Watten ... Social texas ] > >Then are anonymous or unpublished works anti-social texts? > >oooooooooo baby baby. It was pleasant to put together words and > >think there was something post-industrialist about it. > > If the social is a text, is the text a social? . . . okay, here's an essay at aphorismism -- perhaps all texts are social, but not all are sociable d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:22:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: tragedy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" now wait a minute. kathy's still among us. can we hold off on the eulogies until it's time? At 12:38 AM -0800 11/17/97, david bromige wrote: >a tragedy is a child prodigy dead of rosin poisoning in Carnegie Hall on >New Years Eve. A premature death is terribly sad, terribly disturbing, >unspeakably factual, perhaps a catastrophe, and surely for those most >intimately concerned, a catastrophe, a disaster; but it is not a tragedy. >In the presence of death, let us be true to our words. I myself find this >news incredible, which is perhaps what makes Jerry Fletcher utter the term >"tragedy". Certainly to me she is so much younger, that I find her >condition dizzying. It feels like "only the other day" that her >home-published "Tales of the Black Tarantula" began slipping thru my >mailslot. Little did we suspect then what fame & notoriety she would >happily achieve. She "went for broke" in a big way, an utterly american >way, & people loved her for it. And still do. And who knows, maybe she will >pull thru. The word I heard last week, in San Diego, was that she is in a >clinic in Tiajuana, where the less-stringent laws of Mexico permit more >venturesome treatments than one can obtain here. She has metastisized >cancer, I heard; a tough prognosis, but where there's life, who can >surrender possibility? I surely hope she isn't on this List! > >David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:58:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent Comments: To: William Burmeister Prod In-Reply-To: <9711141842.ZM10123@plhp517.comm.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hearing Clinton addressing gays & lesbians at the Hyatt, at least one man was (something) enough to stand up and question the flaccid rhetoric being lauded there. A democracy is cruxed on the ideal that WE know what's best for US. Agreed? Then let's move on. A representitive democracy is cruxed on the ideal that we know that someone ELSE knows what's best for us. Agreed? Then let's move on. A social democracy is cruxed on the ideal that we know that we DO NOT know what's best for anyone else except US. Agreed? Then let's move on. Write in Myles -- Again. Patrick F. Durgin |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, William Burmeister Prod wrote: ...................----> > And a quiet revolution has taken place. > > > William Burmeister > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:42:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: Heath anthology, Lazer, Lauter... In-Reply-To: <009BD6C5.105D0AF0.170@admin.njit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This isn't really a reply to Burt's post--I'm attaching because I like his tack and wish to extend it for Paul Lauter's consideration. Every time I teach a poetry course I create my own xerox anthology. I don't think I'm alone in this. That enriches Kinko's, but not Heath. It also makes my life a lot more difficult. Anthologies influence the canon as perceived by teachers as well as students, not only because they legitimize but because they give access to material that might otherwise be unfamiliar. Even the unconverted prof might be prone to select an anthology that offers some novelty to teacher and student. I think this is a case where virtue need not be its own reward--a more inclusive anthology makes bottom-line sense. At 09:38 AM 11/17/97 EST, you wrote: >To Paul Lauter, > >First of all thank you for allowing this discussion of the Heath to include you >as its editor. Now, that said, allow me to submit the idea that, perhaps >today more than ever, an anthology is a powerful influence on the literary >canon, given the logistics college instructors usually face--much in the way >that dictionaries legitimize usages (a recent student of mine pointed out to >me that he very well COULD spell "through" as "thru" inasmuch as his dictionaryy, a Webster if I recall, albeit maybe not a direct descendent of Noah Webster, >had "thru" as an alternative spelling of the word). I can't count how many times >i've had to exclude important poets from courses because I couldn't really ask >my students to buy these poets' books AND an anthology. > >Burt Kimmelman > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 09:54:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" And in this democracy any group is invisible at best until it's recognized as a voting bloc, which is what Clinton was up to. Whether his speech was flaccid or had a hard-on it's difficult for me to see it as anything but a good thing, although one could certainly ask for more. At 10:58 AM 11/17/97 -0600, you wrote: > Hearing Clinton addressing gays & lesbians at the Hyatt, at least >one man was (something) enough to stand up and question the flaccid >rhetoric >being lauded there. > A democracy is cruxed on the ideal that WE know what's best for >US. Agreed? Then let's move on. > A representitive democracy is cruxed on the ideal that we know >that someone ELSE knows what's best for us. Agreed? Then let's move on. > A social democracy is cruxed on the ideal that we know that we DO >NOT know what's best for anyone else except US. Agreed? Then let's move >on. > Write in Myles -- Again. > > Patrick F. Durgin > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > ___________________________ > >On Fri, 14 Nov 1997, William Burmeister Prod wrote: > >...................----> >> And a quiet revolution has taken place. >> >> >> William Burmeister >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:54:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: R. Buckminster Fuller MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII A friend tells me that Fuller wrote a book-length open-form poem about the Industrial Revolution. Anyone know about it? Is it worth tracking down? Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:58:19 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:58:51 -0600 from On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:58:51 -0600 p. durgin said: > A democracy is cruxed on the ideal that WE know what's best for >US. Agreed? Then let's move on. > A representitive democracy is cruxed on the ideal that we know >that someone ELSE knows what's best for us. Agreed? Then let's move on. > A social democracy is cruxed on the ideal that we know that we DO >NOT know what's best for anyone else except US. Agreed? Then let's move >on. A democracy is based on the idea that since none of us knows what's best for us, we had better decide together about it. A representative democracy is based on the idea of trust - i.e., we will delegate authority because too many cooks spoil the Water Supply Board. A social democracy, I thought, was based on the idea that private property doesn't know what's good for us any more than we do. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:48:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r.drake" Subject: Re: R. Buckminster Fuller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _I Seem To Be A Verb_; 1970. i enjoyed it quite a bit when i read it, i was building geodesic domes on a commune at th time... lbd >A friend tells me that Fuller wrote a book-length open-form poem about >the Industrial Revolution. Anyone know about it? Is it worth tracking down? > >Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:35:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Catherine Daly Subject: Re: R. Buckminster Fuller not in my opinion, although I did attempt to read it Catherine Daly ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:40:45 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Thanks Belatedly, thanks to everyone who relayed contact information for Robin Blaser, Joanne Kyger, and Robert Creeley. As part of the Laughlin-Pound conversation, someone mentioned Eliot on "mentorship." It put me in mind of what allegedly happened when Spender met Eliot for the first time: Eliot said he could understand why Spender would want to write poetry, but that he didn't understand what it meant to want to (as Spender apparently put it) "be a poet." Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:35:14 -0800 Reply-To: dean@w-link.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dean A. Brink" Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hearing Clinton ad- dress gays lesbians at the Hyatt at least one man stood up, the President, and quest- ioned an America with- out rights for all, turn- ed back a time blacks took a back seat to what was correct democratically broke the spell of false priests would-be poets with miles to go before they rollover lauded there, cruxed (sic) on dead ideals that WE k- now what's best for the U.S. Let's move on. Dean "Thessolonius" Brink dean@w-link.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:41:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Yasusada ... Watten ... Social texas Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Jordan writes: >A catalog of literary hoaxes covers the front page of the second section >of this past weekend's Financial Times, and list-subjects Yasusada, Ern >Malley and Alan Sokal make up the bulk of the second half of the article. >Way to go team! Demidenko, Paul Theroux and Ossian, hoaxers not yet >broached here are touched on, and Chatterton and Bob Hershon's public >school students are left out. Just thought I'd mention it, since Kent >Johnson seems to have taken a vacation from the Yasusada updates. Could somebody fill me in on Chatterton and Bob Hershon's public school students? Thanks! Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:01:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Naropa Triple A MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Sunday night at Naropa the annual Fall faculty reading was finally held, an earlier date having been called on account of blizzard. Andrew Schelling read first. He began with an extract from the forthcoming travel journal _The Road to Ocassino: A Chiapas Journal_, which gave a fluid account of an old Nahuatl treatise on flowers & song, hallucinogens and poesis, and their convergence in "the luminous sphere of poetry." "But ah, when the mushroom wears off, one returns to daily life - restless, disconsolate." Next he read from a delightful series of Haibuns - a hybrid form of prose and haiku. These crisp meditations on Coloradan geological and natural features moved by way of sharp, immediate, precise and bright details and included a playful and very effective section that dwelt on the odd conventions of place-naming - "A town called Rifle. A gulch called Skeleton." The section ended with a haiku for Ginsberg: Old masters depart, spring flowers return, haze hangs blue by high peaks. (Not an exact syllable count - either I missed a beat, or it's intentional). Schelling closed with a selection of droll, piquant translations from Sanskrit love poems. Anne Waldman began her reading by observing somewhat mordantly that "everyday seems like Memorial Day around here." In honor of what would have been Ted Berrigan's 63rd birthday, she then read his "Sonnet 23," and "In Anselm Hollo's Poems." Next in the marche funebre came "Lines for Elio Schneeman," followed by a truly wonderful elegy for Hannah Weiner entitled "Hannah Where" - "You are coded in between all the lines... I love you because you are the one who says I see, I see, I see..." Following, Anne read from new work: "Marriage: A Sentence" - a funny, bittersweet chronology of two marriages and a third common law arrangement - "When you are married chances are there will be food in the house when you come in the door." Next, sections from _Iovis 2 & 3_: the first a continuation of her critique on the American obsession with guns, then a powerful blast on the turf battle over the idea of "women's epic" - featuring a very pointed, very right-on letter from a former list subscriber (no names, please!) and co-starring Charles Olson and Robt. Creeley. Anne closed her set in a duet with Steven Taylor on harmonium - lines from Allen's "Mind Breaths" - "no plot, no plot, embrace the stars you are made of..." The remainder of the evening was then remanded to the trusty custody of Anselm Hollo. Who is acquainted with the night, the blight, the cross-hair sight and a species of chimpanzees whose conflict resolution technique eschews war in favor of group orgies. Began AH: "not to belabor lugubrium, but..." and then read three poems by the late James Laughlin. He then read from his own recent _Hills Like Purple Pachyderms_ and _AHOE: And How On Earth_. Following are brief snatches: "benign evening come down... this is not the sea, just a big puddle of hopeless desire for a new brain." "So listen to some Locatelli adrift in history's drunken boat." "How many years does it take to shut up, to learn to shut up? Down the toliet with insight stew." (Pound: "tempus loquendi, tempus tacendi"). "wintry note floats in reason's mind shaft..." And for Ted Berrigan a poem, presented here in its entirety: "The Other is the Same." And from a poem for Allen Ginsberg - "don't shelve that book yet, I want to remember him a little longer." Underneath the bright, bristling wit, the marvelous, impish wordplay, the impeccable sense of rhythm, the sharp pitch and stress of diction, me thought I detected a darker note in Hollo's work than had been heard previously. Or was it only the sound of twilight drawing its ravenous wing over all of us? Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:09:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Baker Subject: Hershon and Chatterton In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Chatterton, who Bob Hershon used to call one of his marvellous boys, began in gladness to read LANGUAGE poetry while in the bath, then for his first assignment in Bob's class handed in one of Bernstein's poems. Bob, stunned by the archaic calligraphy, passed Chatterton's ms onto Sun and Moon, which _did not recognize the original voice_! How this amused Chatterton, who nevertheless ended in despondency and madness. > > Could somebody fill me in on Chatterton and Bob Hershon's public school > students? > > Thanks! You're welcome, Mark Baker ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:22:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jo Ann Blevins Subject: R. Bucky Fuller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fuller's text is _Untitled Epic Poem on the History of Industrialization_ (Touchstone/Simon & Schuster, 1962). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:48:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball There kept being a crow noise from the speaker. Sometimes Sit down in your seat would come out. And breaking glass sounds on something fouled. We listen to these and other noises as the West Oahu CaneFires become super victorious over the Hilo Stars at Hans L'Orange Park in Waipahu. Getting tickets was easy from the District Manager where I work because he has season tickets. Four grandstands that cost $6 each were free for me. Also, I can Option games at Rainbow Stadium to see the Mud Sharks, or on Maui to see the Stingrays or even the big island to see the stars. This reminds me that I like listening to the am news station KHNR when I hear the big island report from Glenn. Each day he does one and only one story & it's about crime and it involves drug taking and women getting beat up. KHRN, Hilo is how he ends his report. If you look around, there are a pleasing number of distractions hung on the fence: SeaLand: Island Focus / Global Reach, Schuler Homes, Sears, Bank of Hawaii, Vanstar: The Technology Services Company, Kobayashi Inc, Amfac, Mufi Hannemann, Waikele Club, Napa, Charley's Care Care Center, New City Nissan, E-Z Corners: Shade Canopies & Accessories, Zelt, The Brain Coral Foundation, West Oahu Canaries, 1st Hawaiian Bank, Gatorade, Carrot Systems, Mililani Shopping Center, Loco Moco Drive Inn, Pearl City Shopping Center, Lagestic Mookies & Dormers, National Waste Removal, American Fence Co. How did these get here? O let me see if I'm replicating. I don't notice the best sign which is for Wahiawa General Hospital in left center field. It's called the $10,000 puka. I suppose if someone hits a dong into the hole, they get $10,000. I know what a puka is because when I hooked up my computer in the branch, the District Manager said you need a new puka for your patch cable. The District Manager's son is hapa. The District Manager's favorite lunch meal is a big bbq pork sandwich at Big Kahuna's near the airport. They make their own bread and pizza. It is true that you don't have to hit in the puka to get money. For example, cheerleaders come around with a hat and ask for money to give to the guy who just hit a homerun. Mufi Hannemann sponsors these lovely ladies, The Sugar Canes. They do dances between innings and help stage the prize giving events also. Mufi is on the city council and his picture is on the program. He is smiling in an aloha shirt and next to his smile it says Aloha to a Winning Team! Susan is embarrassed about asking for the autograph of the CaneFires' Manager Tom Lawless. I think he used to be a utility infielder for the Cardinals. Susan says so any time a player comes up who is affiliated with the Cardinals. Both she and Bryant are wearing Cardinals hats. Hers is home. His away. On the drive to the game Bryant says the NavSat attenuates during wartime so certain informed users can fire weapons with very accurate foci. During peace time, the attenuation is dithered so that airplanes and ships can listen to the satellites for positioning, but not firing weapons. This relates to the antenna which has just been pulled down to speed the opening of the new H-3 freeway. The antenna looked like many high tension wires strung across the big gorge near Kaneohe. A network of these sounders broadcasted very low frequency beeps to ships. They were called the Omega Stations because they were the end all to large broadcasters. You can see a sign in North Dakota that says US Coast Guard Omega Station. Another funny thing is that the Omega wavelengths are about 15 miles. I have trouble imagining waves that big, even on the north shore, which is near Bryant's house and he is a science teacher and is always reading some book at poetry readings like the CMOS cook book. Juliana is grading papers, I'm watching for foul balls, Susan has her mitt (lefty), Bryant is sucking on crack seed & Charles is mixing $1.75 mai tais for Australians on Pub Craaaawl at the Reef Towers pool bar in Wacky Kitty and never sees any of this so then this is for him. One foul ball hits the stadium lights behind home plate and I want the lights to shatter like in the Natural, but no, the ball just falls back to the field. During its fall the umpire gets a new ball out of his pouch and begins to throw it to the pitcher; but he stops mid-motion because the foul ball has bounced off his leg. A bat boy kid picks up the foul ball as the umpire completes his throw to the pitcher. The Phili Phanatic is here tonite, but in his non-denominational form which is called Sport. Sport shakes his belly in a hip jerky sex motion and goes ha ha ha. Sport comes up and rubs the non hair on my bolohead thank you Susan. Sport is pleased stroking the short spines and makes an ah ah ah noise. I imagine Rodney Dangerfield is below the surface. In the middle of the sixth inning, Sport puts on a pink dress & feather boa and approaches the home plate ump. A song plays like I can't take my eyes off you, you're to good to be true, etc. Sport seduces the ump and they slow dance. Sport wraps the pink feather boa around the ump's neck and trails it down between his legs. Sport pulls the feather boa slowly from behind in order to stimulate the ump. Some young girls say when he go do dis, ya and ya, he funny, ya. CaneFire man is here too. I am frightened by CaneFire man. He has a yellow fire head and big white eyes and a white mouth. Yet the eyes don't work and he never speaks. He lives on the hat and is in fact the logo of the team where he swings a burning bat and is smiling and has devilish eyebrows. He represents the spirit of the Cane Fire, which starts in the middle and slowly creeps outward. Rats scurry across the road, trying to get away. Egrets swoop down to eat worms. The cane crackles like metal in a microwave. The flames are anxious to burn the cane. Flames jump from stalk to stalk, hiding behind the smoke and burning the stalks to a crisp. The ashes rustle in the wind and land like soft feathers. The field was developed by the Oahu Sugar Company and improved through the efforts of plantation manager, Mr. Hans L'Orange. He recognized Waipahu as a baseball town and he supported 24 ball teams at the plantation to keep the workers and the community entertained. Mr. L'Orange had a vision for Waipahu and its people, whom he sincerely cared for. He also had a vision for the ballpark which coincided with his business philosophy that Oahu Sugar Company had good sugar because Oahu Sugar Company had happy people. Capacity: 2,200 Dimensions (LF): 278 Dimensions (LC): 351 Dimensions (CF): 400 Dimensions (RF): 385 Dimensions (RC): 325 CF to RF Fence: 10' High CF to LF Fence: 40' High Playing Surface: Grass As we leave the game, the CaneFires undress in the dug out. Juliana is bummed she has not noticed the Asian players doing this, but does see the umpires changing in the parking lot. The field is now empty and black, with only flickering flames, popping up here and there, playing hide and seek. Trucks lumber like elephants, carrying loads of black cane from the wide, black, deserted fields. The cane trucks rumble into the sugar mill and unload black stalks onto the conveyor belt. Molasses barrels are piled up like blocks. Thick smoke rises out of the stacks. The faded green buildings drowse as the smell of sweet sugar drifts through the air and lingers in the town and another day at the Oahu Sugar Company has come to an end. Bill L >Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:43:11 -1000 >From: Susan Schultz >Subject: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball >Last night at the winter league game between the Honolulu Sharks and the >Maui Stingrays, the former Philly Phanatic (now sporting the rather dull >moniker of "Sport") was spotted buffing list member Bill Luoma's bolohead >not once, but twice. On the second go-round, he applied squeegee and a >tiny plunger to help him in his task. Bill was then presented with an >autographed card of Sport, but not the one showing the mascot pinching a >base coach's bum--that one was strangely reserved for the under 10 crowd. >But by far the best venue for baseball on this island (Juliana, Bill, and >I will attest to this) is the choicely named Hans L'Orange Park in >Waipahu, where the West Oahu Cane Fires play their home games. At that >park, a collection is taken up from the crowd for the private use of any >Cane Fires player who hits one home run, lidat! > >Susan > >No poetry but in baseball. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:59:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Farrell's Fuller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In Andrew Levy and Bob Harrison's dazzling inaugural volume of CRAYON, a census of the great ideas people have when Jackson Mac Low is in the vicinity, Dan Farrell, formerly of Vancouver and now residing in poet-thick Brooklyn, excerpts his "(Untitled Epic Poem on the History of Industrialization by R. Buckminster Fuller) GRID." Each stanza is gridded out of the words on a page of the 1962 Simon and Schuster edition of Fuller's poem. Grid #27, shorter than most, goes like this: uneuphonious paralysis rosy hands omnipotence lowering big feet blue me acromegaly much do The work, like its topic still in progress, is on-line at http://www.erols.com/dfar/index.html. Dan voiced a batch in Providence two Saturdays ago in an informal set with Peter Culley, whose lovely, smart, and sometimes startlingly Olsonic THE CLIMAX FOREST (Vancouver: Leech, 1995; available from SPD) is a book I greatly admire. Crayon, complete with a soundtrack, goes for $20 at booksellers or via SPD (ISSN 103-4677). Steve Evans art isa uto nom ous isa uto nom ous art uto nom ous art isa nom ous art isa uto ous art isa uto nom wha tsy our exc use ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:39:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: naropa triple A report Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you, Pat Pritchett, for one more of your always eminently readable reports on a poetry evening. Anselm's AHOE is a lovely book, which I continue to read around in, & it was good to see it being named out here on the List. I'm glad you didnt title yr post "Schelling/Waldman/Hollo." Whenever I see a List-post thats just a proper name these weeks I shrink up with fear that the person being named, has died. I had to pause & wonder at "Buckminster Fuller" earlier today.... Anyhow, perhaps the plethora of these reports has something to do with the darkening of Anselm's palette. As long as he continues to emit, though, time can reverse itself. David ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:43:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Naropa Triple A In-Reply-To: <01IQ4GSKL9L497GYLY@iix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 5:01 PM -0500 11/17/97, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >Sunday night at Naropa the annual Fall faculty reading was finally held, an >earlier date having been called on account of blizzard. > etc terrific report patrick thanks ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:49:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball In-Reply-To: <971117194529_-524598694@mrin79> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jeez, everyone seems to be having so much fun and writing so entertainingly about it, while i sit in 15 degree weather sweating over this dumb conference paper. it makes me feel much better, actually to read these marvelous doings in far places like boulder and hawai'i. plus, i had a skylight put into my bedroom ceiling; having officially joined the ranks of the bourgeoisie (also having started in oct to have $ deducted from my paycheck toward retirement); this is our version of fun in the frozen heart land. life's looking up (at a sometimes-blue sky thru a glass hole in my roof!) At 7:48 PM -0500 11/17/97, Maz881@AOL.COM wrote: >There kept being a crow noise from the speaker. Sometimes Sit down in your >seat would come out. And breaking glass sounds on something fouled. We >listen to these and other noises as the West Oahu CaneFires become super >victorious over the Hilo Stars at Hans L'Orange Park in Waipahu. > >Getting tickets was easy from the District Manager where I work because he >has season tickets. Four grandstands that cost $6 each were free for me. > Also, I can Option games at Rainbow Stadium to see the Mud Sharks, or on >Maui to see the Stingrays or even the big island to see the stars. This >reminds me that I like listening to the am news station KHNR when I hear the >big island report from Glenn. Each day he does one and only one story & it's >about crime and it involves drug taking and women getting beat up. KHRN, >Hilo is how he ends his report. > >If you look around, there are a pleasing number of distractions hung on the >fence: SeaLand: Island Focus / Global Reach, Schuler Homes, Sears, Bank of >Hawaii, Vanstar: The Technology Services Company, Kobayashi Inc, Amfac, Mufi >Hannemann, Waikele Club, Napa, Charley's Care Care Center, New City Nissan, >E-Z Corners: Shade Canopies & Accessories, Zelt, The Brain Coral Foundation, >West Oahu Canaries, 1st Hawaiian Bank, Gatorade, Carrot Systems, Mililani >Shopping Center, Loco Moco Drive Inn, Pearl City Shopping Center, Lagestic >Mookies & Dormers, National Waste Removal, American Fence Co. > >How did these get here? O let me see if I'm replicating. > >I don't notice the best sign which is for Wahiawa General Hospital in left >center field. It's called the $10,000 puka. I suppose if someone hits a >dong into the hole, they get $10,000. I know what a puka is because when I >hooked up my computer in the branch, the District Manager said you need a new >puka for your patch cable. The District Manager's son is hapa. The District >Manager's favorite lunch meal is a big bbq pork sandwich at Big Kahuna's near >the airport. They make their own bread and pizza. > >It is true that you don't have to hit in the puka to get money. For example, >cheerleaders come around with a hat and ask for money to give to the guy who >just hit a homerun. Mufi Hannemann sponsors these lovely ladies, The Sugar >Canes. They do dances between innings and help stage the prize giving events >also. Mufi is on the city council and his picture is on the program. He is >smiling in an aloha shirt and next to his smile it says Aloha to a Winning >Team! > >Susan is embarrassed about asking for the autograph of the CaneFires' Manager >Tom Lawless. I think he used to be a utility infielder for the Cardinals. > Susan says so any time a player comes up who is affiliated with the >Cardinals. Both she and Bryant are wearing Cardinals hats. Hers is home. > His away. > >On the drive to the game Bryant says the NavSat attenuates during wartime so >certain informed users can fire weapons with very accurate foci. During >peace time, the attenuation is dithered so that airplanes and ships can >listen to the satellites for positioning, but not firing weapons. This >relates to the antenna which has just been pulled down to speed the opening >of the new H-3 freeway. The antenna looked like many high tension wires >strung across the big gorge near Kaneohe. A network of these sounders >broadcasted very low frequency beeps to ships. They were called the Omega >Stations because they were the end all to large broadcasters. You can see a >sign in North Dakota that says US Coast Guard Omega Station. Another funny >thing is that the Omega wavelengths are about 15 miles. I have trouble >imagining waves that big, even on the north shore, which is near Bryant's >house and he is a science teacher and is always reading some book at poetry >readings like the CMOS cook book. > >Juliana is grading papers, I'm watching for foul balls, Susan has her mitt >(lefty), Bryant is sucking on crack seed & Charles is mixing $1.75 mai tais >for Australians on Pub Craaaawl at the Reef Towers pool bar in Wacky Kitty >and never sees any of this so then this is for him. One foul ball hits the >stadium lights behind home plate and I want the lights to shatter like in the >Natural, but no, the ball just falls back to the field. During its fall the >umpire gets a new ball out of his pouch and begins to throw it to the >pitcher; but he stops mid-motion because the foul ball has bounced off his >leg. A bat boy kid picks up the foul ball as the umpire completes his throw >to the pitcher. > >The Phili Phanatic is here tonite, but in his non-denominational form which >is called Sport. Sport shakes his belly in a hip jerky sex motion and goes >ha ha ha. Sport comes up and rubs the non hair on my bolohead thank you >Susan. Sport is pleased stroking the short spines and makes an ah ah ah >noise. I imagine Rodney Dangerfield is below the surface. > >In the middle of the sixth inning, Sport puts on a pink dress & feather boa >and approaches the home plate ump. A song plays like I can't take my eyes >off you, you're to good to be true, etc. Sport seduces the ump and they slow >dance. Sport wraps the pink feather boa around the ump's neck and trails it >down between his legs. Sport pulls the feather boa slowly from behind in >order to stimulate the ump. Some young girls say when he go do dis, ya and >ya, he funny, ya. > >CaneFire man is here too. I am frightened by CaneFire man. He has a yellow >fire head and big white eyes and a white mouth. Yet the eyes don't work and >he never speaks. He lives on the hat and is in fact the logo of the team >where he swings a burning bat and is smiling and has devilish eyebrows. He >represents the spirit of the Cane Fire, which starts in the middle and slowly >creeps outward. Rats scurry across the road, trying to get away. Egrets >swoop down to eat worms. The cane crackles like metal in a microwave. The >flames are anxious to burn the cane. Flames jump from stalk to stalk, hiding >behind the smoke and burning the stalks to a crisp. The ashes rustle in the >wind and land like soft feathers. > >The field was developed by the Oahu Sugar Company and improved through the >efforts of plantation manager, Mr. Hans L'Orange. He recognized Waipahu as a >baseball town and he supported 24 ball teams at the plantation to keep the >workers and the community entertained. Mr. L'Orange had a vision for Waipahu >and its people, whom he sincerely cared for. He also had a vision for the >ballpark which coincided with his business philosophy that Oahu Sugar Company >had good sugar because Oahu Sugar Company had happy people. > >Capacity: 2,200 >Dimensions (LF): 278 >Dimensions (LC): 351 >Dimensions (CF): 400 >Dimensions (RF): 385 >Dimensions (RC): 325 >CF to RF Fence: 10' High >CF to LF Fence: 40' High >Playing Surface: Grass > >As we leave the game, the CaneFires undress in the dug out. Juliana is >bummed she has not noticed the Asian players doing this, but does see the >umpires changing in the parking lot. > >The field is now empty and black, with only flickering flames, popping up >here and there, playing hide and seek. Trucks lumber like elephants, >carrying loads of black cane from the wide, black, deserted fields. > >The cane trucks rumble into the sugar mill and unload black stalks onto the >conveyor belt. Molasses barrels are piled up like blocks. Thick smoke rises >out of the stacks. The faded green buildings drowse as the smell of sweet >sugar drifts through the air and lingers in the town and another day at the >Oahu Sugar Company has come to an end. > >Bill L > >>Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:43:11 -1000 >>From: Susan Schultz >>Subject: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball > >>Last night at the winter league game between the Honolulu Sharks and the >>Maui Stingrays, the former Philly Phanatic (now sporting the rather dull >>moniker of "Sport") was spotted buffing list member Bill Luoma's bolohead >>not once, but twice. On the second go-round, he applied squeegee and a >>tiny plunger to help him in his task. Bill was then presented with an >>autographed card of Sport, but not the one showing the mascot pinching a >>base coach's bum--that one was strangely reserved for the under 10 crowd. >>But by far the best venue for baseball on this island (Juliana, Bill, and >>I will attest to this) is the choicely named Hans L'Orange Park in >>Waipahu, where the West Oahu Cane Fires play their home games. At that >>park, a collection is taken up from the crowd for the private use of any >>Cane Fires player who hits one home run, lidat! >> >>Susan >> >>No poetry but in baseball. >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:03:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: buzzwords of the moment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "weapons of mass destruction" equals "wrote fascist opus send moan" (well, there's about a thousand anagrams -- that's one that jumped out at me) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:06:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: buzzwords of the moment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Frankly, rather than buzwords of the moment, I rather know what Opus is thinking...or Dilbert. The only sense I get of the world from newpapers happens in the comics. Gee, I miss Pogo...the most poetic cartoon. "I has met the enemy and He is Us!" Pogo...sums it up well. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:33:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Subject: Re: R. Buckminster Fuller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCF3A8.D1AD92C0" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF3A8.D1AD92C0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's called "Untitled Epic Poem on the History of Industrialization." I = believe it's out of print, but it was published by Simon & Schuster in = 1962, and yes, it's definitely worth tracking down. ---------- From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Sent: Monday, November 17, 1997 12:54 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: R. Buckminster Fuller A friend tells me that Fuller wrote a book-length open-form poem about the Industrial Revolution. Anyone know about it? Is it worth tracking = down? Gary R. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF3A8.D1AD92C0 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhkDAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAVAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAWwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAFVCIFBvZXRpY3MgZGlz Y3Vzc2lvbiBncm91cABTTVRQAFBPRVRJQ1NATElTVFNFUlYuQUNTVS5CVUZGQUxPLkVEVQAAHgAC MAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACIAAABQT0VUSUNTQExJU1RTRVJWLkFDU1UuQlVGRkFM Ty5FRFUAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAeAAAAJ1VCIFBvZXRpY3MgZGlzY3Vzc2lv biBncm91cCcAAAACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOlBPRVRJQ1NATElTVFNFUlYuQUNTVS5CVUZGQUxP LkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAALMQAEEgAEAGgAAAFJFOiBSLiBC dWNrbWluc3RlciBGdWxsZXIAoggBBYADAA4AAADNBwsAEQAWACEAEgABADoBASCAAwAOAAAAzQcL ABEAFgAgAAYAAQAtAQEJgAEAIQAAAENCMjg1QTRERDFGM0JDMTFBMTZDMjJFMkExQjc2OTQ2ADwH AQOQBgAsBAAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkA oO0YttLzvAEeAHAAAQAAABoAAABSRTogUi4gQnVja21pbnN0ZXIgRnVsbGVyAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAW AAAAAbzz0rYPoiapIV+aEdGVBOKXhM0ZIwAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAABQA AABtZHVyYW5kQHNwcnluZXQuY29tAAMABhCeP9zXAwAHEKMBAAAeAAgQAQAAAGUAAABJVFNDQUxM RUQiVU5USVRMRURFUElDUE9FTU9OVEhFSElTVE9SWU9GSU5EVVNUUklBTElaQVRJT04iSUJFTElF VkVJVFNPVVRPRlBSSU5ULEJVVElUV0FTUFVCTElTSEVEQllTAAAAAAIBCRABAAAAnQIAAJkCAAB8 BAAATFpGdT88tbj/AAoBDwIVAqQD5AXrAoMAUBMDVAIAY2gKwHNldO4yBgAGwwKDMgPGBxMCg7oz Ew19CoAIzwnZOxX/eDI1NQKACoENsQtgbvBnMTAzFCALChLyDAFCYwBAIEl0JwQgY0UHQGwJgCAi VQIwaQJ0G2JFcGljIFAQb2VtIAIgIHRoqGUgSAQAdAWweRzQYmYa0G5kdR1wByJpTHphG9ACIC4i GtAg5GJlHpBldh0wG+AbAbcIYAVAHdFwBRACMCwfUCMgQRvgIHdhBCBwda8CYAQAHSAbgGIdsFMH cP0c4SYGABGwHjEEkB/QA6BwMTk2MiDwAHAbgHn/B5Ag8B/jDbELgBvgH3AdsKp3FaFoHQByANBr C4DyZyUAb3cfAAqFCosekAgxODAC0WktMTSeNA3wDNAo4wtZMTYKoOsDYCNgYwVALSsHCocpu+sM MCqGRgNhOiwOKoYMggAgR1JPQkVSVABTQEJJTkFILgBDQy5CUkFORIBFSVMuRURVK69fLL0GYAIw Le8u+00CIGTkYXkg8E5vH7AG0CNxTDE3IPAj0Dk3I8AyaDo1NByATTGvLL1UBm8z7y77UE9FVEk6 QzAwTDFAMCAwAFYuCkE8MFUw0FVGRkG8TE8xbzi/M4Eh0GoqwYM6Dy77Ui4gQnUmUKZtC4AjU0Z1 G1FyJw95KBMzNimHFCIMASqGQd4gA1AIkCRBJXFsBCAHgH8dAR7AQyUhcCqSJCAfUG84b2stG2AZ ACXxb3DVCfAtAhByHMBwHKIBoP8gMQqFHRIeCAfwH6AG8CBAZR7iIBNwbnkCIB0wa+5uJsBKlB/R PxrQBCAhUukl324/Q5xHCsAdsEJAv0QPKYcaNSqGCoUVIQBUsAAAAAMAEBAAAAAAAwAREAEAAABA AAcwgDZwi9LzvAFAAAgwgDZwi9LzvAEeAD0AAQAAAAUAAABSRTogAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAUiA= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF3A8.D1AD92C0-- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:38:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While I agree democracy is based on trust...I can't agree about representative democracy. That comes about because whoever draws up the rules doesn't trust the rule of the mob and finds a "nice" way of developing a leadership faction. And, then, those with money buy off the representatives...that's the way it works in Congress, the Presidency, right down to city hall and the water district. Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:43:04 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: social (was texas) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit And here, I, a displaced and lonely Texan, thought we would get into a discussion of my native country! Oh well, would have just made the homesickness worse. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:12:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: R. Bucky Fuller MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit & Bucky called the poetics of his thing "ventilated prose" -- a delightful description, me thinks -- Pierre Jo Ann Blevins wrote: > Fuller's text is _Untitled Epic Poem on the History of > Industrialization_ (Touchstone/Simon & Schuster, 1962). -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adding music to a good poem is like using a stained-glass window to light a painted picture. — Paul Valéry ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:28:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Onliest baseball game I ever saw on Oahu was between U. Hawaii and Arizona State. Neat. This was at Aloha Stadium, I think, at Pearl. Artificial turf. And multipurpose. That is, they rolled some bleacher seats in to be the outfield barrier. Neatest thing was not that the Rainbow Warriors won, but that in the stands instead of hotdogs, all the old Japanese guys were eating miso soup. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:47:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Pound, Moore, Laughlin In-Reply-To: <34700068.5307@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Insofar as Pound goes, As to his poetry...its punctuated >with greatness, but also often dissolves in nothingness. > >Jerry. Phew! I have just been reading it for 45 years, and have been labouring at writing poetry for a decade less than that, and so far I havent made myself educated enough to know that Pound is that poor. I still think he's a great poet, and that most of the time. I guess I just havent worked at it hard enough. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 14:02:40 -0800 Reply-To: clarkd@sfu.ca Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Clark Organization: A Use for Poets (Editing) Company Subject: reminder of Nov22 RADDLE MOON 16 launch at HERE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One last reminder for NYC-and-area beings about the RADDLE MOON 16 launch at the HERE Inn, NYC, this Saturday November 22nd at 3pm in the afternoon.... all welcome. Hope to see you there. Susan Clark ed.RADDLE MOON New York contact tel# Sat Nov22 - Tues Nov25: 212-222-2782 [Stacy Doris] > [very] recent French poetry, previously unavailable in English > translation, > > On Novenmber 22, there will be a book party/benefit launch > for RADDLE MOON 16 : * 22 New [to North America] French Writers * > guest-edited by Norma Cole and Stacy Doris > > New York area contributors to this issue -- > Ann Lauterbach, Sianne Ngai, Serge Gavronsky, Melanie Neilson, > Lee Ann Brown, Nick Piombino, Richard Sieburth, Fiona Templeton, > Chet Wiener, Jena Osman, Eleni Sikelianos and Stacy Doris -- > are invited to read from their translations of Hubert Lucot, > le Lievre de Mars, Albane Provoust, Sandra Moussempes, [OULIPO- > associated] Michelle Grangaud, Kati Molnar, Christophe Tarkos, > Isabelle Garo, Annie Zadek, Josee Lapeyriere, Veronique Vassiliou, > and Christophe Marchand-Kiss [please fill in accents, Netscape won't] > > The 200-page issue also includes the work of : Elisabeth Jacquet, Manuel > Joseph, > Sabine Macher, Sebastien Smirou, Huguette Champroux, Caroline Dubois, > Cecile Gaudin, > and Oscarine Bosquet translated by other Canadian and US poets as well > one > untranslated work [a "poeme-installation," 19 Jours de Chant] and an > image/text piece, "7 Adieux" both by Frederique Guetat-Liviani > > It's the last event in the Ear at HERE series before Thanksgiving, so > drop by > Saturday at 3 pm, Nov. 22 at HERE, 145 6th Ave (between Spring and > Broome) NYC > > !refreshments! > > RADDLE MOON is also available by subscription [$15] or single copy > [$10] from > RADDLE MOON, MainSpace, 518-350 East Second Avenue, Vancouver, BC V5T > 4R8 Canada. > [US people please pay in US dollars; cheques/checks and money orders to > RADDLE MOON ok], or > through Small Press Distribution [San Francisco]. > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:35:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent In-Reply-To: <347137DA.526B@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've lived in two New England towns that were small enough that everyone knew everyone. They were governed by town meeting--direct democracy, Yankee-style. As far as I could tell, these towns were governed with a degree of corruption that would make a Bostonian blush. This being America, almost no one attended the meetings except those who had inherited a monopoly on town offices. An example: The town tree warden in Williamsburgh, Mass., also ran a tree-removal company. For every tree he condemned he earned a fee, and he assigned the execution to his own profit. His brother was the road commissioner. I lived on South Street, then and now a quiet place that saw traffic primarily when the school bus picked the kids up in the morning and deposited them in the afternoon. It had one vicious curve that an occasional drunk took the hard way when it was covered with ice during the seven months of winter, to much crunching of metal and little bodily harm. The road commissioner saw a good thing here. Under Mass law roads above a certain width automatically become the responsibility of the state. In theory widening the road could save the town a little of the plowing costs it sustained every winter. It would also remove half of the front lawns of the houses along the road, and, coincidentally, a lot of trees. Using that vicious curve and the school buses as an excuse, and holding out the prospect of relief from plowing costs, the widening proposal was pushed through a packed crowd of maybe 20 close friends and relatives. The following morning, before anyone else could find out what had happened at the meeting, the tree warden was on South Street with his crew. By 10 AM a row of oak trees that had run in a straight line for a couple of hundred yards along the road for two hundred years had been reduced to firewood. But the warden had miscalculated. The trees had bordered Nels Christiansen's farm, and Nels was married to Cathy Merritt, whose family had been on South Street, a half-mile of which they owned, for longer than the oaks. They got a special town meeting called and organized a couple of hundred people to attend. The road did get widened, but more carefully, up to the border with the next town, where it retains its original width, meaning that there has been no effect on traffic or safety. The bad curve is still there, and so are the tree warden and his family, and no one without something to gain goes to the town meetings. Maybe the idea of representative democracy was that if you paid someone to attend a meeting he might actually get there. At 10:38 PM 11/17/97 -0800, you wrote: >While I agree democracy is based on trust...I can't agree about >representative democracy. That comes about because whoever draws up the >rules doesn't trust the rule of the mob and finds a "nice" way of >developing a leadership faction. And, then, those with money buy off the >representatives...that's the way it works in Congress, the Presidency, >right down to city hall and the water district. > >Jerry > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:30:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: pound more laughlin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George, I hadnt realized that "but also often dissolves in nothingness" meant that Pound was a poor poet. Isnt that what all the finest poetry does? (I took the "in" to mean "into". But perhaps the writer means, "drop it in a pot of nothingness, and it dissolves", a remark that may have something to do with the esthetics of reception.) Btw, did you get those moose antlers off your head yet? We've been missing you at the poker game. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:07:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:38:18 -0800 from On Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:38:18 -0800 Jerry E. Fletcher said: >While I agree democracy is based on trust...I can't agree about >representative democracy. That comes about because whoever draws up the >rules doesn't trust the rule of the mob and finds a "nice" way of >developing a leadership faction. And, then, those with money buy off the >representatives...that's the way it works in Congress, the Presidency, >right down to city hall and the water district. That still leaves the question, how would "the mob", i.e., everybody, take care of garbage collection each week? I believe in giving trust a chance and reining in the money interests. You cynics give up too easily. Popular sovereignty AND the rule of law would seem to require elected representatives to devote full time to interpreting the law. Though many of our congresspeople seem to devote full time to fundraising and partisanship. That's because most of us have left out the sovereignty clause. We're apolitical and then we blame the politicians for taking advantage of us. Our enemies never seem to live up to our own versions of utopia, for some reason. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 07:49:37 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: RHawai'i Winter League Baseball In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII All this talk about Baseball in Hawaii makes me feel even stupider for sitting through a Chicago Bears game on Sunday in minus-five windchill. That game, too, had poetic implications. Besides constantly reminding me of Lorine Neidecker's quote ("these are the folk from whom all poetry flows. and dreadfully much else" {pardon the lack of lineation}), it also reminded me that more people read interesting books than I tend to assume: when during one of the hundreds of TV timeouts I showed my friend the used book I bought the day before (David McFadden's _Gypsy Guitar_), and which I was reading to and from the game on the el, the guy sitting next to him said, "hey, he write travel books?" Turns out his wife works in a bookstore, and she brought home the recently released collection of McFadden's "trip" books, and he read the _Trip Around Lake Huron_, and I learned for the first time that these three books had been brought out as one: from a guy wearing a Bears Jersey who put away enough beer to pickle an ox. Almost worth freezing to death while watching a boring game. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "The oldest of all alleged libraries are the libraries of the gods" --Ernest Cushing Richardson ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 08:50:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Tate" Subject: Literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Many books/articles on literacy stress the socio-cultural empowerment literacy brings. But, little I can find addresses these sorts of questions: is aesthetic education useful to literacy? can aesthetic pleasure be a reason to teach someone to read? Any suggestions on readings that address how aesthetic concerns intersect with literacy issues? Thanks, Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English U. of Washington, Seattle ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:48:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Hershon and Chatterton In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wow, no! And my goof, it wasn't public school, it was Bob's students at the private St. Ann's School in Brooklyn who created Lawrence Stazer (Teachers & Writers Magazine, V15#3). Chatterton should be listed in yr desk reference or cd rom -- here's how they encapsulate him in the concise Columbia: 1752-70, English Poet. At age 12 he was composing the "Rowley poems" and claiming they were copies of 15th-cent. manuscripts. He came to London, failed to get his work published, and killed himself at 17. An original genius as well as an adept imitator, he used 15th-cent. language but a modern approach. He was a hero to the Romantics. How many pseudonyms do you have, Henry? Business Classics On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, Mark Baker wrote: > Chatterton, who Bob Hershon used to call one of his marvellous boys, > began in gladness to read LANGUAGE poetry while in the bath, then for his > first assignment in Bob's class handed in one of Bernstein's poems. Bob, > stunned by the archaic calligraphy, passed Chatterton's ms onto Sun and > Moon, which _did not recognize the original voice_! How this amused > Chatterton, who nevertheless ended in despondency and madness. > > > > > > Could somebody fill me in on Chatterton and Bob Hershon's public school > > students? > > > > Thanks! > > You're welcome, > > Mark Baker > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:53:09 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Vogler Subject: Bananas? I'm wondering if anyone knows where the infamous Bruce Andrews one-line poem "Bananas is an example" comes from? I'm especially interested in tracking down a critical essay or intro to an anthology where I know I read it first. (My interest is in the logic of exemplification, so I'm mostly interested in how this poem gets used as "an example").Any help would be much appreciated. Tom Vogler ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:10:02 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hen wrote: > > > That still leaves the question, how would "the mob", i.e., everybody, > take care of garbage collection each week? > I believe in giving trust a chance and > reining in the money interests. You cynics give up too easily. > Popular sovereignty AND the rule of law would seem to require elected > representatives to devote full time to interpreting the law. > Though many of our congresspeople seem to devote full time to fundraising > and partisanship. That's because most of us have left out the > sovereignty clause. We're apolitical and then we blame the politicians > for taking advantage of us. Our enemies never seem to live up to our > own versions of utopia, for some reason. - Henry Gould Henry, I'm no cynic about the path of representative democracy and have not given up. I do think its the best way to govern, but history is on the side of the money powers buying what they think is best for them and hang the rest of us. Then all the corruption and power games get thrown in and you have the continual messes we find ourselves in most of the time. Nay, not a cynic, but a student, as well as practioner, of government and electoral politics with an insider view to its workings. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:30:49 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: to spank your curiosity In-Reply-To: <34674568.1595@mwt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Miekal And wrote: > You are invited to encounter JOGLARS [...] > http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/index.html I just want to call this again to list attention ("whoso would list"), as some of us have been there & many of us seem not to have (or passed without a trace from off...) been there. & thanks, Miekal & Maria (+ participants), for an amazing site! best, Chris .. Christopher Alexander calexand@library.utah.edu Marriott Library Instruction 581-8323 (lv. msg.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:14:04 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rudolph Rougenez Subject: Re: Hershon and Chatterton In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:48:38 -0500 from On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:48:38 -0500 Jordan Davis said: > >1752-70, English Poet. At age 12 he was composing the "Rowley poems" and >claiming they were copies of 15th-cent. manuscripts. He came to London, >failed to get his work published, and killed himself at 17. An original >genius as well as an adept imitator, he used 15th-cent. language but a >modern approach. He was a hero to the Romantics. > >How many pseudonyms do you have, Henry? Dear Mr. Davis, Unaccustomed as I am to this epistolary format, nevertheless I will endeavor to respond to your query. In brief, Sr. Enrique Chepasa de Shivamitimbres-Goulashada, known to certain contemporary "email" networks variously as "Henry Gould", "Jack Spandrift", Eric Blarnes", and "Torquemada", remains an elusive historical personage in the history of late 17th-cent. Iberian pseudo-poetics. Born in Granada (according to local legend, beneath a flowering Burpee seed catalog), Sr. Enrique served in the Spanish Armada under the pseudonym of Fernando Bombastador, Capitain of the Galleon Reye Leetle-Brune-Jug, which foundered tragicomically off the northeast coast of Scotland in 1588. To summarize, Sr. Enrique lived out the rest of his days chained to a barrel of McDougall's ale; from there, he wrote the masterful version of Cervantes' famous "Don Quijote" which so inspired JL Borges' inimitable "Don Rickles en Madrid" pastiche, with which I have no doubt you have undoubtedly certain familiarities, I am convinced. (Pardon my english.) The writings attributed to his other pseudonyms, mentioned above, are apocryphal and of doubtful provenance; however, Luigi Della Patata of Bologna in a recent monograph has compared chirography of the various ms. with signal success. For further information I encourage you to consult Della Patata's website: http://www.consyrup.com; and thank you for all your enquiries to which I regret my inability to respond individually, as I am 16 different persons, and you can imagine the practical difficulties which might result from such and etc. Yours multiply, Rudolph Rougenez ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:05:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Naropa Triple A Comments: To: Maria Damon MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Thanks Maria & David. Yes, I suspect David you correctly attribute one of the causes for the alleged recent endarkenment in Hollo's poems. Dark they may be, but I find them bracing and peculiarly comforting, perhaps from acknowledgement of common plight, i.e. mortality. And unlike Pound, thank god, no retreat into tempus anything but straight on until nightfall, damn "the insight stew." Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Maria Damon To: POETICS Subject: Re: Naropa Triple A Date: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 9:38AM At 5:01 PM -0500 11/17/97, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >Sunday night at Naropa the annual Fall faculty reading was finally held, an >earlier date having been called on account of blizzard. > etc terrific report patrick thanks ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:45:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume" Subject: Re: to spank your curiosity Comments: To: Christopher Alexander MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN Thanks for the nudge, Christopher. I'm finally checking it out and it is truly a garden of marvels. Great job Miekal & Maria! Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Christopher Alexander To: POETICS Subject: Re: to spank your curiosity Date: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 2:15PM Miekal And wrote: > You are invited to encounter JOGLARS [...] > http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/index.html I just want to call this again to list attention ("whoso would list"), as some of us have been there & many of us seem not to have (or passed without a trace from off...) been there. & thanks, Miekal & Maria (+ participants), for an amazing site! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 05:48:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob Hardin Subject: grief to come/*tragedy* et al Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Although I did express grief over Kathy Acker on UB Poetics, and even though I did not use the word *tragedy* in expressing my grief, I do find Kathy's present condition intolerably sad. I am not part of your literary community; I am not an academic; I had been trying refrain from speaking publicly about the recent loss of Kathy and others. Those who know Kathy well must be aware of the strong and conflicting emotions she can evoke. The strength of those emotions took me by surprise when I posted here. I underestimated the intensity of those emotions. If I'm reading them correctly, certain correspondents on this list are more interested in challenging grief than in acknowledging it. If so, remember: I did not post a discussion of scholarship or historical accuracy. Truthfully, I should not even have mentioned Kathy, since her health ought to have remained my private concern. Nor do I wish to go into detail about Kathy's condition. To challenge the assessments of others would mean to divulge more of what I ought to have kept to myself. My reason for posting here was simple. People were discussing Laughlin's death while I was trying not to think about Kathy. Nevertheless, as the discussion continued, I kept thinking of her. I also thought of Lou Stathis, David Wojnarowicz, Susan Walsh and Liz Brockland, all of whom died or disappeared without my being able to do anything about it. When I could not go on thinking about their passing, I posted blindly. To David and Maria: While it is terrible to read of someone's death, it is worse still to feel death's immanence without being able to intervene. It is worse to watch impotently as death descends. Your words do not correspond to my understanding of death, nor have I endorsed your words; therefore I need not be true to your words. I need to be true to the memory of those for whom I grieve. I did not know your child prodigy. I have not stood at the epicenter of any of the disasters you cite. Yes, these events are tragic. But while one can lament them in the abstract, such events do not awaken pain. What I want is not to win some argument over terms like grief and tragedy and loss. What I want is for Kathy to remain alive. What I want is for Lou, Lizzie, Susan, David and others to resurface. It is unfair that we should live and they should not. I wish they were alive and that is all I wish. In the past, I have cared about rhetoric as ardently as I cared about people. But now that I'm losing people, it is harder to care about rhetoric. If you did not mean to attack me over an honest expression of grief, then please accept my apologies for misunderstanding your reply. However, if you did wish to quibble with me over texts, then please choose a textual reference in any other post I have ever made. Please don't take me to task over this one. Grief is bad enough. An autopsy would be torture. All the best to you. May you be reconciled to this subject in a more adult fashion than I have managed so far. I wish you no ill. I do not wish to fight. All best always, Rob Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:11:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Not only my curiosity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" has been spanked, but also my interest & my awareness--thank you, Chris, for the heads-up : youre better than an English nanny! And kudos to Mikael y Maria for their hard work. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:18:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: rob hardin's grief Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" shared by many, I have no doubt. And No, Rob, it wasnt you who used 'tragedy". My chief concern was that Listpersons were posting in as if Kathy Acker's death were a foregone conclusion & this struck me as callously insensitive. What would it cost you-all to have at least as much patience as she needs to muster? David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:13:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: democracy A follow-up to previous thread. Cynicism & realism. With respect to rose-tinted glasses, please give me some slack: I was born & raised in Minnesota, after all. & you probably recall that old Rhode Island political adage: "The road to Hell is paved with Hubert Humphreys, potholed with Gene McCarthys, and resurfaced with Walter Mondales." Speaking of Rhode Island, here's a little Roger Williams: When a field is to be broken up, they have a very loving sociable speedy way to dispatch it: All the neighbors Men and Women forty, fifty, a hundred &etc., joyne, and come in to help freely. With friendly joyning they break up their fields, build their Forts, hunt the Woods, stop and kill fish in the Rivers, it being tru with them as with all the World in the Affaires of Earth or Heaven: By concord little things grow great, by discord the greatest come to nothing _Concordia parvae res crescunt, Discordia magnae dilabunter_. - Roger Williams KEY INTO THE LANGUAGE OF AMERICA (Rosmarie Waldrop, poeta valora, literally "scratched the surface") - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:50:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent Comments: To: "Jerry E. Fletcher" In-Reply-To: <3472123A.2988@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Anyone who heard Clinton's address will remember his quoting of Whitman. Next day, William B.'s "silent revolution," Eileen Myles' '92 campaign of "total disclosure," and wondering about poetics as gesture(s) of activism. A representitive democracy would seem to simulate how we ultimately "trust" our authors. Who wrote Mr. Clinton's address? Myles, in a '94 interview, "I was simply being a writer, a poet, in public. And there was no other way to do that other than to say you're a presidential candidate." C. Bernstein, "Ideology . . . everywhere informs poetry and imparts to it . . . a density of materialized social being expressed through the music of a work as well as its multifoliate references." By insinuating that gays and lesbians and bisexuals as well as himself are equally entitled to the rights of their citizenship, ie. consomate representation, was bittersweet at best. That societal values own up to this notion has yet to be seen. How incredibly calculated Mr. President's unprecedented appearance, and it is a group of faithful voters he's after. I "trust" he will earn some. A poem, as a cultural product, seems an abject token in this context. The question I have for the list is this: to what extent are our poetries/poetics an effective cultural analogue? Is the gap of representation (assuming a lot here, I realize) really any wider now than it may have been in the past, may be in the future? Patrick F. Durgin |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 18:00:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: not worth quoting, a tangent In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Which is exactly the point attempting to be made by this here cynic. If Clinton were a zine editor, he'd be put out of business half way to Kinko's. |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, hen wrote: > You cynics give up too easily. > Popular sovereignty AND the rule of law would seem to require elected > representatives to devote full time to interpreting the law. > Though many of our congresspeople seem to devote full time to fundraising > and partisanship. That's because most of us have left out the > sovereignty clause. We're apolitical and then we blame the politicians > for taking advantage of us. Our enemies never seem to live up to our > own versions of utopia, for some reason. - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:34:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mark weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This came to me over the web, ultimate source unknown. I pass it along as a possible source of poems for those so inclined. One of the fringe benefits of being an English or History teacher is receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay. I have pasted together the following "history" of the world from certifiably genuine student bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United States, from eighth grade through college level. Read carefully, and you will learn alot. The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the Sarah Dessert and traveled by Camelot. The climate of the sarah is such that the inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are cultivated by irritation. The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of a huge triangular cube. The Pyramids are a range of mountains between France and Spain. The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the Bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of their children, Cain, asked "Am I my brother's son?" God asked Abraham to sacrifice Issac on Mount Montezuma. Jacob, son of Issac, stole his brother's birthmark. Jacob was a patriarch who brought up his twelve sons to be patriarchs, but they did not take to it. One of Jacob's sons, Joseph, gave refuse to the Israelites. Pharaoh forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw. Moses led them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread made without any ingredients. Afterwards, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to get the ten commandments. David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the liar. He faught with the Philatelists, a race of people who lived in Biblical times. Solomon, one of David's sons, had 500 wives and 500 porcupines. Without the Greeks, we wouldn't have history. The greeks invented 3 kinds of columns---corinthian, Doric and ironic. They also had myths. A myth is a female moth. One myth says that the mother of Achilles dipped him in the River Stynx until he became intolerable. Achilles appears in "The Illiad", by Homer. Hoomer also wrote the "Oddity", in which Penelope was the last hardship that Ulysses endured on his journey. Actually, Homer was not written by Homer but by another man of that name. Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people advice. They killed him. Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock. In the Olympic Games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and threw the java. The reward to the victor was a coral wreath. The government of Athen was democratic because the people took the law into their own hands. There were no wars in Greece, as the mountains were so high that they couldn't climb over to see what their neighbours were doing. When they faught the Parisians, the greeks were outnumbered because the Parisians had more men. Eventually the Ramons conquered the Greeks. History called people Romans because they never stayed in one place very long. At Roman banquets, the guests wore garlic in their hair. Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the battlefields of Gaul. The Ides of March killed him because they thought he was going to be made king. Nero was a cruel tyrany who would torture his poor subjects by playing the fiddle to them. Then came the Middle Ages. King Alfred conquered the Dames, King Arthur lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harlod mustarded his troops before the battle of hastings, Joan of Arc was cannonized by George Bernard Shaw, and the victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks. Finally the Magna Carta provided that no free man should be hanged twice for the same offense. In Midevil times most of the people wee alliterate. The greatest writer of the time was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verse and also wrote literature. Another tale tells of William Tell, who shot an arrow through an apple while standing on his son's head. The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of their human being. Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at Wittenberg for selling papal indulgences. He died a horrible death, being excommunicated by a bull. It was the painter Donatello's interest in the female nude that made him the father of the Renaissance. It was an age of great inventions and discoveries. Gutenberg invented the Bible. Sir Walter Raleigh is a historical figure because he invented cigarettes. Another important invention was the circulation of blood. Sir Francis circumcised the world with a 100 foot clipper. The government of England was a limited mockery. Henry VIII found walking difficult because he had an abbess on his knee. Queen Elizabeth was the "Virgin Queen." As a queen she was a success. When Elizabeth exposed herself before her troops, they all shouted "hurrah." Then her navy went out and defeated the Spanish Armadillo. The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespear. Shakespear never made much money and is famous only because of his plays. he lived in Windsor with his merry wives, writing tragedies, comedies and errors. In one of Shakespear's famous plays, Hamlet rations out his situation by relieving himself in a long soliloquy. In another, lady Macbeth tries to convince Macbeth to kill the king by attacking his manhood. Romeo and Juliet are an example of a heroic couplet. Writing at the same time as Shakespear was Miquel Cervantes. He wrote "Donkey hote." The next great author was John Milton. Milton wrote "Paradise Lost." Then his wife dies and he wrote "Paradise regained." During the Renaissance America began. Christopher Columbus was a great navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic. His ships were called the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Fe. Later the pilgrims crossed the ocean, and that was called the Pilgrim's Progress. When they landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by indians, who came down the hill rolling their was hoops before them. The indian squabs carried porposies on their back. Many of the indian heroes were killed, along with their cabooses, which proved very fatal for them. The winter of 1620 was a hard one for the settlers. Many people died and many babies were born. Captain John Smith was responsible for all this. One of the causes of the revolutionary Wars was the English put tacks in their tea. Also, the colonists would send their parcels through the post without stamps. During the war, Red Coates and Paul Revere was throwing balls over stone walls. The dogs were barking and the peacocks crowing. Finally, the colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for taxis. Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress. Thomas Jefferson, a virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the Declaration Of Independence. Franklin had gone to Bostin carrying all his clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm. He invented electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared "a horse divided against itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead. George Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the Father of our country. Then the Constitution of the United States was adopted to secure domestic hostility. Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the right to keep bare arms. Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent. Lincoln's mother died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his own hands. When Lincoln was president, he wore only a tall silk hat. he said "In onion there is strength." Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysberg Address while traveling from Washington to Gettysberg on the back of an envelope. He also signed the Emasculation Proclamation, and the Fourteenth Amendment gave the ex-Negroes citizenship. But the clue clux clan would torcher and lynch the ex-Negroes and other innocent victims. On the night of April 14, 1865, Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by one of the actors in a moving picture show. The believed assinator was John Wilkes Booth, a sopposedly insane actor. This ruined Booth's career. Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltare invented electricity and also wrote a book called "Candy." Gravity was invented by Issac Walton. It is chiefly noticeable in the Autumn, when the apples are falling off the trees. Bach was the most famous composer in the world, and so was Handel. Handel was half German, half Italian, and half English. He was very large. Bach died from 1750 to the present. Beethoven wrote music even though he was deaf. He was so deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for this. France was in a very serious state. The French Revolution was accomplished before it happened. The Marseillaise was the theme song of the French Revolution, and it catapulted into Napoleon. During the Napoleonic Wars, the crowned heads of Europe were trembling in their shoes. Then the Spanish gorrilas came down from the hills and nipped at Napoleon's flanks. Napoleon became ill with bladder problems and was very tense and unrestrained. he wanted an heir to inherit his power, but since Josephine was a baroness, she couldn't bear him any children. The sun never set on the British Empire because the british Empire is in the east and the sun sets in the West. Queen Victoria was the longest queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. Her reclining years and finally the end of her life were exemplatory of a great personality. Her death was the final event which ended her reign. The ninteenth century was a time of many great inventions and thoughts. The invention of the steam boat caused a network of rivers to spring up. Cyrus McCormick invented the McCormic raper, which did the work of 100 men. Samuel Morse invented a code for telepathy. Louis Pastuer discovered a cure for rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturailist who wrote the "Organ of the Species." Madman Curie discovered radium. And Karl Marx became one of the Marx Brothers. The First World war, caused by the assignation of Arch-Duck by a surf, ushered in a new error in the anals of human history. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:52:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: more comedy tonight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This came to me in my e-mail today. Thanks, Mark W., for that hilarious history of the world. >>> ACTUAL ENGLISH SUBTITLES USED IN FILMS MADE IN HONG KONG. >>> >>> 1. I am damn unsatisfied to be killed in this way. >>> 2. Fatty, you with your thick face have hurt my instep. >>> 3. Gun wounds again? >>> 4. Same old rules: no eyes, no groin. >>> 5. A normal person wouldn't steal pituitaries. >>> 6. Damn, I'll burn you into a BBQ chicken! >>> 7. Take my advice, or I'll spank you without pants. >>> 8. Who gave you the nerve to get killed here? >>> 9. Quiet or I'll blow your throat up. >>> 10. You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice >>> chicken. >>> 11. I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out! >>> 12. You daring lousy guy. >>> 13. Beat him out of recognizable shape! >>> 14. I have been scared sh_tless too much lately. >>> 15. I got knife scars more than the number of your leg's hair! >>> 16. Beware! Your bones are going to be disconnected. >>> 17. The bullets inside are very hot. Why do I feel so cold? >>> 18. How can you use my intestines as a gift? >>> 19. This will be of fine service for you, you bag of the scum. I am >>> sure you will not mind that I remove your manhoods and leave them out >>> on the dessert flour for your aunts to eat. >>> 20. Yah-hah, evil spider woman! I have captured you by the short >>> rabbits and can now deliver you violently to your gynecologist for a >>> thorough extermination. >>> 21. Greetings, large black person. Let us not forget to form a team >>> up together and go into the country to inflict the pain of our karate >>> feets on some _ss of the giant lizard person. __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:34:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Literacy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would recommend Ross Talarico's _Spreading the Word: Poetry and the Survival of Community_ (Duke, 1995). Talarico is a poet who was employed for a decade or so by the city of Rochester (NY) as its artist in residence, and he gave workshops to seniors, disadvantaged kids, etc. One of his interesting points is that one way to bring people to reading (literacy) is through writing, esp poetry. And there's some pretty impressive poetry by some of the high school kids in there, much better than that by those kids represented by Adrienne Rich in her edition of the Best American poetry 1996. He also advances the notion of "deliteracy" as a way of explaining the state of the word in the contemporary US (pointing out that we live in a culture in which those who use language to deceive can get rich and gain power, whereas those who use it to demystify and enlighten, are marginalized. No news to anybody on this list, but personally, I never get tired of hearing it. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "The oldest of all alleged libraries are the libraries of the gods" --Ernest Cushing Richardson On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, J. Tate wrote: > Many books/articles on literacy stress the socio-cultural empowerment > literacy brings. But, little I can find addresses these sorts of > questions: is aesthetic education useful to literacy? can aesthetic > pleasure be a reason to teach someone to read? > > Any suggestions on readings that address how aesthetic concerns intersect > with literacy issues? > > Thanks, > > Joseph Tate > Graduate Student > Department of English > U. of Washington, Seattle > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:10:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: gratitude for the comedies tonight Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, I have only inflicted with my nails the meniscus of your astonished document. Yours, Steven, being more than half as less, I have already ingested though in parts it found me impenetrable to gulp. #19, for typicality, blew me as confected because altogether much less likely to be upcome of genial translatorese. By what examination elect how authenticized each instant? #21 blows me as much increased true mistake. I think #17 clockless wonder of haiku-like beauty, very shifting, almost moanratic. I only lash myself that these were not viable then in 1993 altereity-sage should I have installed them in my slender measure of space _The Harbormaster of Hong Kong_ ! No wax, David PS Out of sight, out of mind _________________________ Invisible lunatic ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:37:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: to spank your curiosity In-Reply-To: <01IQ5QDH9GAA97EUVW@iix.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks all but by far the greater part of the credit goes to miekal; he and i have been writing, but he's the techno-genius who knows how to make it cool on the web, and add all the special visuals. he met w/ my class and showed us how to hypertext and then posted our stuff on da web. thanks again miekal ps if anyone wants to hire him to do workshops for your groups --he's just terrific.--md At 2:45 PM -0500 11/18/97, Pritchett,Pat @Silverplume wrote: >Thanks for the nudge, Christopher. I'm finally checking it out and it is >truly a garden of marvels. Great job Miekal & Maria! > >Patrick Pritchett > ---------- >From: Christopher Alexander >To: POETICS >Subject: Re: to spank your curiosity >Date: Tuesday, November 18, 1997 2:15PM > > Miekal And wrote: >> You are invited to encounter JOGLARS [...] >> http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/index.html > >I just want to call this again to list attention >("whoso would list"), as some of us have been >there & many of us seem not to have (or passed >without a trace from off...) been there. & thanks, >Miekal & Maria (+ participants), for an amazing site! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:56:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob Hardin Subject: grief not merely mine, nor conclusions personal-- In-Reply-To: <199711190503.AAA00935@mx.interport.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" --when we voice fears that she may cease to be. >Subject: rob hardin's grief >shared by many, I have no doubt. And No, Rob, it wasnt you who used >'tragedy". My chief concern was that Listpersons were posting in as if >Kathy Acker's death were a foregone conclusion & this struck me as >callously insensitive. What would it cost you-all to have at least as much >patience as she needs to muster? David I can understand your position, David. You cite good and sober reasons for voicing it, not the least of which is compassion. But if you've read Kathy's cancer piece in the English press, then perhaps you know that she, too, has been impatient with her own mortality; has treated it as a foregone conclusion. She has been more dramatic about her own death than the majority of us could manage at our most excessive. Those who fear the worst are not callous for expressing that fear: A callous person wishes the worst to be true. A friend fears the worst and wishes it were not. I would never have voiced my fear if I were not chafed and abraded from visits to the hospital that did zero good, from visits to the police department, from profitless searches for the others whom I've mentioned. What might seem like callousness is really the desperation of a useless friend. That desperation is personal and does not translate. "My" grief is a vain and frivolous subject which, I fear, is not worth anyone's attention. It posits but does not merit your eloquent response. My mistake, D. and everyone else. I've said as much already and reiterate now. I hope we can drop this thread and go about our business. All the best to you, Rob Hardin ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 02:03:16 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: hEar wRave Comments: To: wr-eye-tings@sfu.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit t e s t r u n +++++ t e s t r u n +++++ t e s t r u n +++++ UBUTRONIC Audio Faucet & Brainwave Seducer http://net22.com/qazingulaza/joglars/logokon/noise/prenoiseframe.html -hypertext song -requires netscape 3 -frames -interactive 4 channel sound -fat samples ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 06:30:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Myouka Sondheim Subject: origins of language (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - The Language Maybe they're walking. Maybe they're in Hakata-Eki. Maybe they're out in the street. Maybe there's no street, no names, just first-last, who got there. Maybe there's the getting. The language is the same all the way down, Jennifer said. First you notice the signs on the street, then labels on electrical cords, things like that. You expect hiragana or katakana, fixed alphabets, and instead you get infinity. Infinity leaks everywhere; kanji goes on and on, back and back, flooding the world. The world is all that is inscribed, she said. They wonder how we reproduce. They keep track of us with electronics, sometimes collars. We're nameless; they can't tell us apart. We fade quickly in the sun; sometimes shadows give us away, but not often enough. There's no borders around us. They think we don't reproduce. Kon said, they don't reproduce; he knew it. They were fixed, like stations. They had answers for everything; questions were a suffix. They're present - they were always present. They'll be there. Europe is a flower. Somewhere there is a signal, and an eye meets it. What crosses and reverses is chiasmus, thinking organ /\/ organic thought. There are terms beyond alphabets and numbers, pronunciations that do not meet the eye, then are no signals, but instances, instantiations. They cut the paper in two; they made the paper, the edges of it rough, shorn as if torn. They'd write this in hopes of a better future life. Kon was doomed, Jennifer distraught. Polaroid filtration, transparent apart, blocking light and yama-mountain together. They'd have a better life. Gaijin distraught. Gaijin at a loss. Gaijin on the run. Gaijin with guns; no one else in the world has guns. They're long and black and metal, flat blue metal and black grips and blue bullets and black chambers. They have fetish-sheen, get high black-market, grey-market prices for them. Tom looked up; he's got one for sale. The customer: a Korean from Pusan. Niman, worth every yen. Eyes the bullets. Calls Tom out to the genkan. Look, man. Guy looks Tom in the eyes. Tom takes two of them, down for the kill. Koreans are killers. Gaijin make the guns, peace-makers. They fire them in special kilns. Last several months, waterproof, always good in Fukuoka autumn. Rains destroy wars. Gaijin never get wet; they've got oils in their pale skins. Dollars go a long way translated into any currency. There's an investigation, Jennifer distraught. She calls on Kon. He sees death for the first time. It's gaijin death; Kon understands. Suddenly: Zen, satori! Knows all. Kon knows. Jennifer and Kon go out to the Darkroom. It's black, blue, like bul- lets. There's a ledge on one side. They sit. Korean walks into the glare. He's looking, nervous, edgy. Could it be someone else; they know all of them know all of them, Kon says. Jennifer says, Kon, you're prejudiced, ignorant, unknowing-cloud, you haven't got it. Kon says, Jennifer. The Korean orders saki. Saki-man says none, besides no heat here, just the sound. Hole blares from the speakers, pale-faced Alan requests from the corner. They've got hats. Jennifer knows hatred first-hand, sees it seething. The Korean turns slowly, as if there were something on his mind. Kon says, impossible. Jennifer thinks, impolite. Soon someone will reach for something and it will all begin. It's a question of time, not Heidegger or Husserl, not being. It's waiting an instant out, a moment. The Korean gets up to leave. Stop, says Jennifer, hold on, just a moment. The sky turns blue-black. Nani says the Korean. Gaijin bastard. You haven't a mother haven't a father. You came from the clouds. Jennifer whips him across the face; eyes flash out, sliced last-vision Jennifer down on the ground scream- ing; she's scrammed. Kon: Don't do that again. You've screwed the deal. Tom, Tom, Jennifer says, he's dead. The language is all the way down. __________________ As for Jennifer, her personality is gentle. Jennifer-san rages late- night Darkroom, but never again; Nakasha heats up, Tenjin, all the outlying districts. See gaijin run; Kon gnaws death as for himself. Kuchi ga gatai, he's closed-mouthed, hard-mouthed; he now watches Kon. Jennifer-san awakens from a dream of killing, slicing; it's all right. What was before is the same; Kon's transitive, she thinks. Kon thinks, she's the one for me. They have tea. Nothing happened at the Darkroom, Jennifer guesses. She's lost her name, -san has disappeared. She wants Eigo all the way down, the tongue of the native, transparent comfort pretending understanding. All language is viral, poison (she read); it seeps in, obscures, makes pretty-poison blue-black writing. This _is the case_ she decides, here! now! She wants to have the description of the world delivered daily to her front door, no genkan in the way, socks and boots already facing inside-outside and everywhere. She doesn't understand, Kon decries, decides. They have tea, toast, what remains of yesterday's bento. They move on and early-morning out, already rage against the city. What happened to Tom? What did he speak with gun-barrel diplomacy, or rather kanji could he read just about anywhere? Kuchi ga karui, she'd have a light mouth, ask everyone, spread rumors, listen everywhere, blabber on, prattle to friends and strangers, talk and talk until _it_ returned with news, something in a pocket, a trail leading backwards and forwards, shuttling through snack-bar town. She'd open herself wide, ready for the fall. She thought Kon: I like you. Deeper, I love you. Maybe deeper yet, I'm in love with you, or maybe I'm crazy in love with you, madly in love. She thought Eigo Eng- lish talk, Jennifer-san, may I speak to you after class? An English is my owning language. Kon read his name on the bullet. She read, in blue and black, "The evolution of machines is at first evident by the fact that they arise in "generations." One after anoth- er, newer models supersede the older, which often are embedded - let's call this the distortions of history, somewhat backwards-compatible. But sooner or later, there's a big leap to a new paradigm, and every- one is left behind. Capital picks up the pieces: Buy New! And trans- late the best you can; otherwise, there's nothing to do but start over." This Korean who killed Tom for the guns is a machine, she decided, there's a new game in town. But it's only human species, said Kon, well, by definition, not so much new under the sun. Certainly not in the centuries of Fukuoka, everyone business as usual. The guns were laid out in parallel rows, glittering, glint-glint! as jagged patterns flashed before Jennifer's eyes, a migraine coming on. She was gaijin, up to gai-jinx. She lived in a world of pure incompre- hension, the lessons of school-children, difficult periods, medication and saki-solace. Japanese would have been another language of smooth vocalizations, repetitions. Syllabic-hangul Koreans closed in, taking over yakuza-gaijin connects. Kon thought it was a matter of alphabets, lean syllables, phonemics, running slipshod across low-bandwidth com- puters, everything running high-speed forever, wires singing. In cyberspace, everyone knew their place, a matter of romaji, latin let- ters. In the future, Kon thought in black and blue, wars will be a matter of position, citation degree-zero. But not now as pachinko lights cast spells upon the population, gaijin and native alike. Not to mention the schoolgirls sliding like eels into the depths of child- hood, everyone wanting a piece. Into the maelstrom of the Darkroom, Rumours, Snack-Bar Delight, Kon and Jennifer plunge; naked beneath their shirts and pants, they clutch each other, mouths open as if about to speak, recite alphabets and guns. All the colors in the world, are all the colors in the world. Now, she takes his gun in, Tom forgotten. Now, every-word-perfection comes to bare on flesh, a new position for the body as concepts mount one another, photograph the moment of arousal. Begin language. Gesture.. Some chemical makes response to rhythm; ano- ther makes visions. Flexible arms and legs. Skin-book, the first book is the body. Jennifer's nipple pierced by Kon's ring of silver; Jen- nifer-hiragana across Jon's breast. Numbered into one another. The dog-eating Korean has the guns. Rumors: look for them, they're looking for you. Machinic dispositions of reciprocity and exchange. Gears coagulate out of the beginnings of material culture: Jennifer owns her ring, Kon, his skin-marks. Savage names lacerate mobile sites right from the beginning. _No one understands the name,_ it's the hinge or vortex of incomprehension. It's too close to the real. The Korean is "the Korean." Tom-dead is clearly generic; Kon knew he reproduced like water, no-fuck flows and empty-rhythm culture. There's no name to truth as bodies wed to earth: "Kon and Jennifer are marrying." "Kon and Jennifer are getting married," Jennifer teaches. "But Jennifer is wedded to the earth." Kon, Khan, conquistador and the dirt of central Asia. He should know. He should know her. The language is the same all the way across. Across the strait, Pusan beckons. Kon and Jennifer for the holiday, for the hell of it. They knew: no truth here. Suddenly: blaze-guns in the streets. They go down: something's coming! It's the dog-eating Korean, following them, how? On the ferry, foot, bicycle. With the new guns, he fires away. Perfect trajectories are catenaries slightly out of shape, given the earth's tired sphere. A star-pattern across Pusan's streets, they're running now. Jennifer thinks Jennifer's fault, she's spread talk everywhere, loose lips, kuchi ga karui, can't keep her mouth shut, can't keep a secret, asked too many questions, talked everywhere and everywhere. Her words flooded the streets of Fukuoka from Chiyo south to Okinawa. Everyone knew, crazy gaijin with her signs of Eigo, placards of romaji, kanji boards held taut with gaijin-Tom's improper name. In Pusan, dust. Policeman Dick is riding by, beauty-bicycle, black and blue. Policeman Dick's gun puffs, dog-eating Korean is blown away. Now Kon and Jennifer quietly leave the park for the ferry; they've had enough! Now they'll wed the water, work through all four elements. Kon thinks, there's a time for everything; Jennifer knows better. Jennifer knows she owns time, owns Kon's time, owns all the time in the world. Jennifer-gaijin is always perfect Jennifer. Kon and Jennifer reproduce together, and Kon learns the useless value of collars, electronics, monitoring devices. He takes her silver ring between his teeth, distends her breast slightly. She can read the hiragana, Jennifer's true love. ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:26:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: from "henry gould" at Nov 18, 97 06:13:43 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just wanted to quickly jump in and propose, I guess in Henry's defense, that "rose-tinted glasses" can, when used as part of a web of self-conscious symbolic action, have social and poltical teeth. I'm thinking particularly of Frederic Jameson's "proposition that the effectively ideological is also, at the same time, necessarily utopian," in The Political Unconscious. Jameson attempts "to project an imperative to thought in which the ideological would be grapsed as somehow at one with the Utopian." The utopian is useful as symbolic action because it awakens both disenchantment and desire, two necessary components of political and social action. Now of course, Jameson's Utopia is a Marxist one. But who's to say we might not hijack the theory to posit "Democracy" as a narrative which is "socially symbolic action," as Jameson insists all narratives are? The cynic says, "democracy's no good b/c it doesn't work." The skeptic says, "the times, the materials are out of synch with democracy. Democracy as symbolic action is what Burke called 'deferred action,'" and maybe this awakens the desire for social change. What good is the writer who merely tells us "things is bad." Hell, we already know that. -m. According to henry gould: > > A follow-up to previous thread. Cynicism & realism. With respect to > rose-tinted glasses, please give me some slack: I was born & raised in > Minnesota, after all. & you probably recall that old Rhode Island political > adage: "The road to Hell is paved with Hubert Humphreys, potholed with > Gene McCarthys, and resurfaced with Walter Mondales." > > Speaking of Rhode Island, here's a little Roger Williams: > When a field is to be broken up, they have a very loving sociable speedy way > to dispatch it: All the neighbors Men and Women forty, fifty, a hundred &etc., > joyne, and come in to help freely. > With friendly joyning they break up their fields, build their Forts, hunt the > Woods, stop and kill fish in the Rivers, it being tru with them as with all the > World in the Affaires of Earth or Heaven: By concord little things grow great, > by discord the greatest come to nothing _Concordia parvae res crescunt, > Discordia magnae dilabunter_. - Roger Williams KEY INTO THE LANGUAGE OF > AMERICA (Rosmarie Waldrop, poeta valora, literally "scratched the surface") > - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:45:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Burmeister Prod In-Reply-To: mark weiss "" (Nov 18, 4:34pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 18, 4:34pm, mark weiss wrote: > Subject: > This came to me over the web, ultimate source unknown. I pass it along as a > possible source of poems for those so inclined. > > > > > One of the fringe benefits of being an English or History teacher is > receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay. I have > pasted together the following "history" of the world from certifiably > genuine student bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United > States, from eighth grade through college level. Read carefully, and you > will learn alot. > > The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the Sarah > Dessert and traveled by Camelot. The climate of the sarah is such that > the inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are > cultivated by irritation. The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of > a huge triangular cube. The Pyramids are a range of mountains between > France and Spain. & ... Oh for happy misunderstandings! Mo funny when heard from the mouths of babes (ie the Little Rascals (Our Gang) which I think is marvelous to watch). William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:20:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: more comedy tonight In-Reply-To: Steven Marks "more comedy tonight" (Nov 18, 7:52pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 18, 7:52pm, Steven Marks wrote: > Subject: more comedy tonight > This came to me in my e-mail today. Thanks, Mark W., for that hilarious > history of the world. > > >>> ACTUAL ENGLISH SUBTITLES USED IN FILMS MADE IN HONG KONG. > >>> > >>> 1. I am damn unsatisfied to be killed in this way. > >>> 2. Fatty, you with your thick face have hurt my instep. > >>> 3. Gun wounds again? > >>> 4. Same old rules: no eyes, no groin. > >>> 5. A normal person wouldn't steal pituitaries. > >>> 6. Damn, I'll burn you into a BBQ chicken! > >>> 7. Take my advice, or I'll spank you without pants. > >>> 8. Who gave you the nerve to get killed here? > >>> 9. Quiet or I'll blow your throat up. > >>> 10. You always use violence. I should've ordered glutinous rice > >>> chicken. > >>> 11. I'll fire aimlessly if you don't come out! > >>> 12. You daring lousy guy. > >>> 13. Beat him out of recognizable shape! > >>> 14. I have been scared sh_tless too much lately. > >>> 15. I got knife scars more than the number of your leg's hair! > >>> 16. Beware! Your bones are going to be disconnected. > >>> 17. The bullets inside are very hot. Why do I feel so cold? > >>> 18. How can you use my intestines as a gift? > >>> 19. This will be of fine service for you, you bag of the scum. I am > >>> sure you will not mind that I remove your manhoods and leave them out > >>> on the dessert flour for your aunts to eat. > >>> 20. Yah-hah, evil spider woman! I have captured you by the short > >>> rabbits and can now deliver you violently to your gynecologist for a > >>> thorough extermination. > >>> 21. Greetings, large black person. Let us not forget to form a team > >>> up together and go into the country to inflict the pain of our karate > >>> feets on some _ss of the giant lizard person. > The best of this kind of thing (in film) that I've heard yet! Some of the Italian film subtitles are interesting as well (like In Fellini's _Satyricon_ and elsewhere). There is a dramatic quality about them: along with the humor there is a liveliness or energy in them that is hard to match. The lines are short and impulsive/implosive, the language of farce. In some of these, I hear Charles Boer (one of Olson's students) in his translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses where the economy of language and oftentime absence of the pronoun lend to it absurdly. beft, William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:36:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: Literacy In-Reply-To: David Zauhar "Re: Literacy" (Nov 18, 7:34pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 18, 7:34pm, David Zauhar wrote: > Subject: Re: Literacy > I would recommend Ross Talarico's _Spreading the Word: Poetry and the > Survival of Community_ (Duke, 1995). Talarico is a poet who was employed > for a decade or so by the city of Rochester (NY) as its artist in > residence, and he gave workshops to seniors, disadvantaged kids, etc. One > of his interesting points is that one way to bring people to reading > (literacy) is through writing, esp poetry. And there's some pretty > impressive poetry by some of the high school kids in there, much better > than that by those kids represented by Adrienne Rich in her edition > of the Best American poetry 1996. > And through readings. I just finished this morning reading poetry to a group of elementary school children (K through 5). Read to them from Roethke's _Praise to the End!_, _Words to the wind_, and _I am! Says the Lamb_. It was exciting to see how much poetry appeared to still have a place in their lives, and how their teachers gave poetry writing assignments. William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:46:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Benedetti Subject: Re: Literacy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, J. Tate wrote: > Many books/articles on literacy stress the socio-cultural empowerment > literacy brings. But, little I can find addresses these sorts of > questions: is aesthetic education useful to literacy? can aesthetic > pleasure be a reason to teach someone to read? > > Any suggestions on readings that address how aesthetic concerns intersect > with literacy issues? > > Thanks, > > Joseph Tate > Graduate Student > Department of English > U. of Washington, Seattle > Readings that address how aesthetic concerns intersect with literacy issues? Did I hear that as it was intended? Intersect? Interpenetrate? I'm tempted to suggest that one look at "literature" to see aesthetic concerns intersecting with literacy............ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:43:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: bloopers In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971118163425.006c1078@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" mark and others interested: i don't know if this is the only paper source, but you'll find this and other "bloopers" in *Anguished English: An Anthology of Accidential Assaults Upon Our Language* (interesting title in its own right) by Richard Lederer some others gems: "A virgin forest is a place where the hand of man has never set foot." "Arabs wear turbines on their heads." "A virtuoso is a musician with real high morals." "A passive verb is when the subject is the sufferer, as in "I am loved." bmarsh At 04:34 PM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote: >This came to me over the web, ultimate source unknown. I pass it along as a >possible source of poems for those so inclined. > > > > >One of the fringe benefits of being an English or History teacher is >receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay. I have >pasted together the following "history" of the world from certifiably >genuine student bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United >States, from eighth grade through college level. Read carefully, and you >will learn alot. > >The inhabitants of Egypt were called mummies. They lived in the Sarah >Dessert and traveled by Camelot. The climate of the sarah is such that >the inhabitants have to live elsewhere, so certain areas of the dessert are >cultivated by irritation. The Egyptians built the Pyramids in the shape of >a huge triangular cube. The Pyramids are a range of mountains between >France and Spain. > >The Bible is full of interesting caricatures. In the first book of the >Bible, Guinesses, Adam and Eve were created from an apple tree. One of >their children, Cain, asked "Am I my brother's son?" God asked Abraham to >sacrifice Issac on Mount Montezuma. Jacob, son of Issac, stole his >brother's birthmark. Jacob was a patriarch who brought up his twelve sons >to be patriarchs, but they did not take to it. One of Jacob's sons, Joseph, >gave refuse to the Israelites. > >Pharaoh forced the Hebrew slaves to make bread without straw. Moses led >them to the Red Sea, where they made unleavened bread, which is bread >made without any ingredients. Afterwards, Moses went up on Mount Cyanide to >get the ten commandments. David was a Hebrew king skilled at playing the >liar. He >faught with the Philatelists, a race of people who lived in Biblical times. >Solomon, one of David's sons, had 500 wives and 500 porcupines. > >Without the Greeks, we wouldn't have history. The greeks invented 3 >kinds of columns---corinthian, Doric and ironic. They also had myths. A >myth is a female moth. >One myth says that the mother of Achilles dipped him in the River Stynx >until he became intolerable. Achilles appears in "The Illiad", by Homer. >Hoomer also wrote the "Oddity", in which Penelope was the last hardship >that Ulysses endured on his journey. Actually, Homer was not written by >Homer but by another man of that name. >Socrates was a famous Greek teacher who went around giving people >advice. They killed him. Socrates died from an overdose of wedlock. > >In the Olympic Games, Greeks ran races, jumped, hurled the biscuits, and >threw the java. The reward to the victor was a coral wreath. The >government of Athen was democratic because the people took the law into >their own hands. There were no wars in Greece, as the mountains were so >high that they couldn't climb over to see what their neighbours were doing. >When they faught the Parisians, the greeks were outnumbered because the >Parisians had more men. > >Eventually the Ramons conquered the Greeks. History called people Romans >because they never stayed in one place very long. At Roman banquets, the >guests wore garlic in their hair. Julius Caesar extinguished himself on the >battlefields of Gaul. The Ides of March killed him because they thought >he was going to be made king. Nero was a cruel tyrany who would torture his >poor subjects by playing the fiddle to them. > >Then came the Middle Ages. King Alfred conquered the Dames, King Arthur >lived in the Age of Shivery, King Harlod mustarded his troops before the >battle of hastings, Joan of Arc was cannonized by George Bernard Shaw, and >the victims of the Black Death grew boobs on their necks. Finally the Magna >Carta >provided that no free man should be hanged twice for the same offense. > >In Midevil times most of the people wee alliterate. The greatest writer >of the time was Chaucer, who wrote many poems and verse and also wrote >literature. Another tale tells of William Tell, who shot an arrow through >an apple while standing on his son's head. > >The Renaissance was an age in which more individuals felt the value of >their human being. Martin Luther was nailed to the church door at >Wittenberg for selling papal indulgences. He died a horrible death, being >excommunicated by a bull. >It was the painter Donatello's interest in the female nude that made him >the father of the Renaissance. It was an age of great inventions and >discoveries. Gutenberg invented the Bible. Sir Walter Raleigh is a >historical figure because he invented cigarettes. >Another important invention was the circulation of blood. Sir Francis >circumcised the world with a 100 foot clipper. > >The government of England was a limited mockery. Henry VIII found >walking difficult because he had an abbess on his knee. Queen Elizabeth >was the "Virgin Queen." As a queen she was a success. When Elizabeth >exposed herself before her troops, they all shouted "hurrah." Then her navy >went out and defeated the Spanish Armadillo. > >The greatest writer of the Renaissance was William Shakespear. Shakespear >never made much money and is famous only because of his plays. he lived in >Windsor with his merry wives, writing tragedies, comedies and errors. In >one of >Shakespear's famous plays, Hamlet rations out his situation by relieving >himself in a long soliloquy. In another, lady Macbeth tries to convince >Macbeth to kill the king by attacking his manhood. Romeo and Juliet are an >example of a heroic couplet. Writing at the same time as Shakespear was >Miquel Cervantes. He wrote "Donkey hote." The next great author was John >Milton. Milton wrote "Paradise Lost." Then his wife dies and he wrote >"Paradise regained." > >During the Renaissance America began. Christopher Columbus was a great >navigator who discovered America while cursing about the Atlantic. His >ships were called the Nina, the Pinta and the Santa Fe. Later the pilgrims >crossed the ocean, and that was called the Pilgrim's Progress. When they >landed at Plymouth Rock, they were greeted by indians, who came down the >hill rolling their was hoops before them. The indian squabs carried >porposies on their back. Many of the indian heroes were killed, along with >their cabooses, which proved very fatal for them. The winter of 1620 was a >hard one for the settlers. Many people died and many babies were born. >Captain John Smith was responsible for all this. > >One of the causes of the revolutionary Wars was the English put tacks in >their tea. Also, the colonists would send their parcels through the post >without stamps. During the war, Red Coates and Paul Revere was throwing >balls over stone walls. The dogs were barking and the peacocks crowing. >Finally, the colonists won the War and no longer had to pay for taxis. > >Delegates from the original thirteen states formed the Contented Congress. >Thomas Jefferson, a virgin, and Benjamin Franklin were two singers of the >Declaration Of Independence. Franklin had gone to Bostin carrying all his >clothes in his pocket and a loaf of bread under each arm. He invented >electricity by rubbing cats backwards and declared "a horse divided against >itself cannot stand." Franklin died in 1790 and is still dead. > >George Washington married Matha Curtis and in due time became the Father >of our country. Then the Constitution of the United States was adopted >to secure domestic hostility. Under the Constitution the people enjoyed the >right to keep bare arms. > >Abraham Lincoln became America's greatest Precedent. Lincoln's mother >died in infancy, and he was born in a log cabin which he built with his >own hands. When Lincoln was president, he wore only a tall silk hat. he >said "In onion there is strength." Abraham Lincoln wrote the Gettysberg >Address while traveling from Washington to Gettysberg on the back of an >envelope. He also signed the Emasculation Proclamation, and the Fourteenth >Amendment gave the ex-Negroes citizenship. But the clue clux clan would >torcher and lynch the ex-Negroes and other innocent victims. On the night >of April 14, 1865, Lincoln went to the theater and got shot in his seat by >one of the actors in a moving picture show. The believed assinator was John >Wilkes Booth, a sopposedly insane actor. This ruined Booth's career. > >Meanwhile in Europe, the enlightenment was a reasonable time. Voltare >invented electricity and also wrote a book called "Candy." Gravity was >invented by Issac Walton. It is chiefly noticeable in the Autumn, when the >apples are falling off the trees. > >Bach was the most famous composer in the world, and so was Handel. Handel >was half German, half Italian, and half English. He was very large. Bach >died from 1750 to the present. Beethoven wrote music even though he was >deaf. He was so >deaf he wrote loud music. He took long walks in the forest even when >everyone was calling for him. Beethoven expired in 1827 and later died for >this. > >France was in a very serious state. The French Revolution was accomplished >before it happened. The Marseillaise was the theme song of the French >Revolution, and it catapulted into Napoleon. During the Napoleonic Wars, >the crowned heads of Europe were trembling in their shoes. Then the Spanish >gorrilas came down from the hills and nipped at Napoleon's flanks. Napoleon >became ill with bladder problems and was very tense and unrestrained. he >wanted an heir to inherit his power, but since Josephine was a baroness, >she couldn't bear him any children. > >The sun never set on the British Empire because the british Empire is in >the east and the sun sets in the West. Queen Victoria was the longest >queen. She sat on a thorn for 63 years. Her reclining years and finally the >end of her life were exemplatory of a great personality. Her death was the >final event which ended her reign. > >The ninteenth century was a time of many great inventions and thoughts. >The invention of the steam boat caused a network of rivers to spring up. >Cyrus McCormick invented the McCormic raper, which did the work of 100 men. >Samuel Morse invented a code for telepathy. Louis Pastuer discovered a cure >for >rabbis. Charles Darwin was a naturailist who wrote the "Organ of the >Species." Madman Curie discovered radium. And Karl Marx became one of the >Marx Brothers. > >The First World war, caused by the assignation of Arch-Duck by a surf, >ushered in a new error in the anals of human history. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:23:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: <199711191526.KAA73382@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "defferred action" sounds like a what-good-is-a-writer telling us that "things is not perfect" as I imagine they could be. |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:01:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: from "p. durgin" at Nov 19, 97 01:23:16 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Far from it. I am a writer so I could harly be a what-good-is-a-writer. In Burke's sense, "deferred action" is the dialectical counterpart to "things is not perfect," hence its utopian character - it shows symbolically what could be and sets itself in dialogue with what is (or isn't). Though, do you really think things could be *perfect*? I think we'd all have to be dead for that. -m. According to p. durgin: > > "defferred action" sounds like a what-good-is-a-writer telling us > that "things is not perfect" as I imagine they could be. > > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > ___________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:38:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Jarnot & Moxley at MIT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Lisa Jarnot and Jennifer Moxley are reading tomorrow night in the Poetry@MIT series curated by Bill Corbett. Event kicks off at 7:30pm in Bartos Theatre, 20 Ames Street in Cambridge, Massachussetts. Profiles of the poets and more information about the series can be seen at http://web.mit.edu/humanistic/www/poetseri.htm, or call (617) 253-9469 or (617) 253-7894 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:42:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Dugan/out of print books In a message dated 97-11-14 20:51:24 EST, you write: >After a varied string of posts on another list, I heard that Alan Dugan's >poems are now all completely out of print. I assume this is true since a >friend of mine who knows him told me so, but I am wondering where I might >get copies of Poems 1, 2, and 4. Any help would be greatly appreciated. > > Two places I know of that deal in OP poetry books: VERSEtility Books, Bob Jacobs, Box 1366 Burlington CT 06013 860-675-9338 Whitehead Rare Books, Jett Whitehead, 1412 Center Ave. Bay City MI 48708 517-892-0719 They both catalog mostly first edition, & often signed, copies. so the books, if they've got em, will come at a dear price. Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:12:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "p. durgin" Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: <199711192201.RAA47974@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No No No -- Not what I was saying at all. I'm just skeptical of a dialectical process whose extremes are absolutes, ie. "perfect" -- Although I'm not as familiar with Burke's system as perhaps I should be, the dynamic vaguely resembles typical, western, macho blunders through the ages. |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| ___________________________ On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Michael Magee wrote: > Far from it. I am a writer so I could harly be a what-good-is-a-writer. > In Burke's sense, "deferred action" is the dialectical counterpart to > "things is not perfect," hence its utopian character - it shows > symbolically what could be and sets itself in dialogue with what is (or > isn't). Though, do you really think things could be *perfect*? I think > we'd all have to be dead for that. -m. > > According to p. durgin: > > > "defferred action" sounds like a what-good-is-a-writer telling us > > that "things is not perfect" as I imagine they could be. > > > > > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > > ___________________________ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:25:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UB Poetics Program Subject: Job Listing for SUNY-Buffalo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The English Department of SUNY-Buffalo asked that we post this job announcement. Please pass on to anyone you think might be interested. Specialist in African-American literature, rank open, pending final budgetary approval. Professor, Associate Professor, or Assistant Professor We are looking for a candidate with strong theoretical interests to work in the graduate and undergraduate programs. Our poetics program, our diverse studies in American literature, our close relation to other centers at the university doing cultural studies, offer several locations where one could situate his/her work. Novelists- and poet-critics are encouraged to apply. Critical work is as significant as poetry/fiction. Please apply to Chair, African-Americanist Search Committee, Department of English, 306 Clemens Hall, SUNY-Buffalo, Buffalo, NY 14260. Applicants for a junior position should include a 30 or so page writing sample along with a letter, CV, and recommendations. SUNY Buffalo is an AA/EO employer. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:37:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Moriarty Subject: Grim, Harrison and Lookingbill Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" New non! Jessica Grim, Bob Harrison and Colleen Lookingbill - Soon bio and links page - Attention all non contributors!!! If you have not sent a short bio for non, please send one. Include also links with which you would like to be associated - Laura Moriarty ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:11:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Literacy In-Reply-To: <9711191136.ZM3730@plhp517.comm.mot.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, William Burmeister Prod wrote: > And through readings. I just finished this morning reading poetry to a group of > elementary school children (K through 5). Read to them from Roethke's _Praise > to the End!_, _Words to the wind_, and _I am! Says the Lamb_. It was exciting > to see how much poetry appeared to still have a place in their lives, and how > their teachers gave poetry writing assignments. > > William Burmeister > Yes! Along these lines, a lot of those Kenneth Koch and Ron Padgett books from the Teachers and Writers Collaborative (did I get the name right?) might be helpful. They're not theoretical enough to please many graduate school types (of which I'm one), but they do make points about the place of the aesthetic in education. This summer I taught some 6-8 graders. Their favorite: Wallace Stevens' "13 Ways of Looking at a Blackbird." At least in terms of generating imitations and parodies. Dave Zauhar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:39:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Yasusada in Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I've been lurking every so often in the archives this semester and lurked yesterday to find Jordan Davis's post, "Yasusada, Watten, social texas." In it, he says that "Kent Johnson seems to have taken a vacation from the Yasusada updates." Well, you can hardly expect me to not respond to that! Hi Jordan. And by the way, you still owe me $20 from last summer. But anyway, I'd like to second Jordan's remarks about the Financial Times article ("Mind Food: On the Art of Writing Wrongs"--on the FT web site) because it's pretty interesting, but to say also that its views about heteronymous authorship are pretty restricted. Check out, for example, the views of the Granta editor, or the concluding analogy, if that's the word, of the article's writer, Christian Tyler: that literature should always carry a "warning" or "origin of production" label (however small, he qualifies), like the food you buy in a supermarket! (And I don't think he's being tongue in cheek.) Also of related interest just out in UK is a section devoted to Yasusada discussion in the new issue of Poetry Review, including letters from Stand editor Jon Silkin, an inteview with me by Peter Forbes (PR editor) and an exchange of letters between myself and Akitoshi Nagahata (part of a by now larger correspondence about issues relating to Yasusada that we intend to publish somewhere--Mikhail Epstein and Eliot Weinberger also enter this debate). Akitoshi Nagahata is on this list, and his criticisms of Yasusada are far and away the most thoughtful and thought-provoking I have encountered so far. But the main update I'm back from vacation to post is that _Doubled Flowering: From the Notebooks of Araki Yasusada_, is just out from Roof Books, quite beautiful in production and available for $14.95. I believe James Sherry will be putting a more complete notice on the list shortly. The book is 170 pages, including a 45 page "critical appendix." I know many of you have been assuming that the book is by me. Well, here it is. "Who it's by," if that's important, is present there. But you can read it, too, without playing detective. Hope you'll give it a look! Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:57:30 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Los Angeles reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Harryette Mullen and giovanni singleton read Monday evening, November 24, at 7:30 PM at Loyola Marymount University. The reading will be in the McIntosh Center of Sullivan Hall. For those of you flying in for the reading, Loyola Marymount is conveniently located near the Los Angeles airport. For those of you driving to the reading from the local area -- take Manchester towards the ocean. Before driving into the ocean, turn onto Loyola Boulevard. This street will take you directly into the campus. Before turning into the large visitors' parking lot at the entrance, stop and ask the helpful staff in the security booth to show you where Sullivan Hall is located. If you have any other questions, call me at my office: (310) 338-3078 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:58:32 -0800 Reply-To: dean@w-link.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dean A. Brink" Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas Comments: cc: John Treat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sounds like Kent Johnson would like all of us to read the Yasusada book even if it isn't by Yasusada. Splendid attitude. Now the question is Why not use your own name? Again, the specter of Orientalism underlies your self-deploying fanfare. Your lackadaisical nonchalance regarding the falsification of A-Bomb survivor literature is tantamount to forging Jewish Holocaust literature just to make a buck at Borders (a similar point was made to me by John Treat recently). dean brink EALC UChicago dean@w-link.net interpoetics - poetry of Asia and the Pacific Rim www.w-link.net/~dean/interpoetics/index.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:18:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas Comments: To: "Dean A. Brink" In-Reply-To: <3473A758.D041B5AE@w-link.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Dean A. Brink wrote: > Sounds like Kent Johnson would like all of us to read the Yasusada > book even if it isn't by Yasusada. Splendid attitude. > > Now the question is Why not use your own name? > Again, the specter of Orientalism underlies your self-deploying fanfare. > > Your lackadaisical nonchalance regarding the falsification of A-Bomb > survivor literature is tantamount to forging Jewish Holocaust literature > just to make a buck at Borders (a similar point was made to me by John > Treat recently). Thanks for another self-congratulating condemnation of yet another book you haven't bothered to read. David Zauhar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:56:30 -0800 Reply-To: dean@w-link.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Dean A. Brink" Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas Comments: cc: John Treat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I would like to discuss this issue further, but you must refrain from personal attacks (how am I "self-congratulating"?) and speak to the contents of my insinuations (in this long-established discourse). The issue is the forging of the book not the quality -- which, as has been established from the pieces in print, is less than satisfactory: predictable attempts at entrepreneurial Orientalism, riddled with affective clichés and revealing a shallow understanding of Japanese life (to be expected of an American ignorant of Japan); devaluation of the lives of actual Japanese who experience the effects of the A-bombs still today. A couple years ago in Japan a major magazine ran an article on the fact that the Jewish Holocaust never happened. Should this be ignored too? (The magazine folded soon after, to take responsibility for the outrage.) Last week a judicial nominee withdrew his name after admitting to have falsified stories of tragic racial violence against a member of his family in the 1940s or 50s. He took responsibility for using historical tragedy for personal gains. Similarly I think informed readers should know what they're buying and boycott the Johnson book if they don't want to contribute to the distortion and consecration of historical tragedies (note that racism figures in all these example of the Jewish Holocaust, the decision to drop the A-bomb twice on Japan, and the murder of African Americans in the pre-civil rights US). I can't imagine anyone seriously reading the Yasusada book except as a case study in an ethics course, or a literary theory class discussing the limits of postmodernism (I hope no one actually does this, wouldn't want to fuel his projects). db David Zauhar wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Dean A. Brink wrote: > > > Sounds like Kent Johnson would like all of us to read the Yasusada > > book even if it isn't by Yasusada. Splendid attitude. > > > > Now the question is Why not use your own name? > > Again, the specter of Orientalism underlies your self-deploying fanfare. > > > > Your lackadaisical nonchalance regarding the falsification of A-Bomb > > survivor literature is tantamount to forging Jewish Holocaust literature > > just to make a buck at Borders (a similar point was made to me by John > > Treat recently). > > Thanks for another self-congratulating condemnation of yet another book > you haven't bothered to read. > > David Zauhar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:20:19 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971118163425.006c1078@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >One of the fringe benefits of being an English or History teacher is >receiving the occasional jewel of a student blooper in an essay. I have >pasted together the following "history" of the world from certifiably >genuine student bloopers collected by teachers throughout the United >States, from eighth grade through college level. Read carefully, and you >will learn alot. That "alot" was on purpose, wasn't it? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 02:26:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Bowering wrote: > > > > > >States, from eighth grade through college level. Read carefully, and you > >will learn alot. > > That "alot" was on purpose, wasn't it? > > George Bowering. > ,I really think what was meant is that one will lean a lot...have to in order to hold oneself to keep from going into hysterics...either because its so damn funny or depressing. On the other hand, my 11 year old won 2nd place in his school for his two page essay on What is a Hero...surprisingly well written, correct grammer, great content, complete sentences...a beginning, middle, and end. The litt bugger knew to say real heroes are the ordinary folk that make this life go, and contribute...not the Jordans, et.al in sports. Makes this dad proud...especially after seeing the language art papers my wife grades when she suffers through teaching one of those classes...her first field is art, but is a damn good English teacher. Jerry Fletcher. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 00:23:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: lingo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George, alot of people are disinterested in that oldcodgerese you and me were learned to write. I imply alot from yr brief missile, but alot more dubitably dont. Give up your licked. Get those antlers off of yr egghead & get yr ass down here to the poker game, prof! We miss you alot, as I hoped I have supplely inferred . Dave. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 03:26:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: lingo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > > George, alot of people are disinterested in that oldcodgerese you and me > were learned to write. I imply alot from yr brief missile, but alot more > dubitably dont. Give up your licked. Get those antlers off of yr egghead & > get yr ass down here to the poker game, prof! We miss you alot, as I hoped > I have supplely inferred . Dave. Hmmm, I lik it..bck ta reel anglish, fore the damn Normies, damn f------ frency frogs, scrwd wid da langige. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:54:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:01:54 -0500 from Perfection, utopia. Responding to M. Magee's posts, Herbert Schneidau in SACRED DISCONTENT (often quoting Jameson) talks about the utopian impulse as part of a general ambivalence toward culture per se which has its roots in Hebraic-Biblical nomad tradition, fiercely antithetical to the established Egyptian or Near Eastern empires surrounding it, and eventually turning the criticism (in a truly unprecedented way) on itself. This character of self-alienation can terminate in nihilism, or overthrow for the sake of overthrow, but Schneidau characterizes the western impulse as truly ambivalent - a love-hate relation with culture which is perhaps the key factor in culture's long-term survival. What if utopia is truly an inward reality, yet based on the character of a person's relations with family, friend, enemy, neighbor? What if "the kingdom of heaven is within you"? Then the demand for an "outer" utopia tends to extremism. Perhaps to be zealous for those siblings, democracy and law, is enough. To struggle for a truly international law based on human equality might be the real flower of an inward utopia - an inward utopia based on the recognition of terrible IMperfection. Not self-righteousness. The hardest law to live up to is to love your neighbor as yourself. & that's the basis of all the rest. This will be judged to be the complacent pablum of a middle-class mid-lifer. Tell a poor person about the inward utopia, they will say. But you'd be surprised what a number of poor persons would say in reply. It's all just talk until it conquers the world. - Oldest Living Minnesotan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:14:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:18 PM -0600 11/19/97, David Zauhar wrote: >On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Dean A. Brink wrote: > >> Sounds like Kent Johnson would like all of us to read the Yasusada >> book even if it isn't by Yasusada. Splendid attitude. >> >> Now the question is Why not use your own name? >> Again, the specter of Orientalism underlies your self-deploying fanfare. >> >> Your lackadaisical nonchalance regarding the falsification of A-Bomb >> survivor literature is tantamount to forging Jewish Holocaust literature >> just to make a buck at Borders (a similar point was made to me by John >> Treat recently). > >Thanks for another self-congratulating condemnation of yet another book >you haven't bothered to read. > >David Zauhar i don't necessarily think this is the point. "the book itself" --whatever that may be --is not the only thing worth discussing in cases like this.--md ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 06:52:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: alot(ta) lingo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Bromige wrote: > George, alot of people are disinterested in that oldcodgerese you and me > were learned to write. I imply alot from yr brief missile, but alot more > dubitably dont. Give up your licked. Get those antlers off of yr egghead & > get yr ass down here to the poker game, prof! . . . Last night dreamt George Bowering lumbering down from Canada, terrifying apparition with the head and torso of a black bear, hindquarters of an Arctic fox, grey squirrel's tail, giant eagle's wings and a rack of deer antlers on his head. What can it mean? There were no answers at http://www.anto.com/salzxmas.html "The Christmas season brings not only St. Nikolaus, the bearer of gifts, but also Krampus, his darker side, who appears to mete out punishments for misdeeds of the past year. Large, foreboding, black-clad and antlers on his head, Krampus roams the streets on an evening around December 8. He thwacks passersby with a switch, which causes recipients of his swats to be grateful that their warm loden coats are a little like protective armor." Uh oh, Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas In-Reply-To: <3473A758.D041B5AE@w-link.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dean: Strong feelings, to be sure. But just to clarify, in case you weren't aware: the AY work has been known to be a fiction for a year and a half now. My own strong feeling is that the Yasusada writings spark issues that are a good deal less settled and more ambiguous than your formulations below would allow. There is a long interview in the book, actually, that attempts--if tentatively--to bring some of these difficult questions forward. I suppose I could only ask you to first read the book. It's at least possible, I think, that you might soften your judgement after considering the whole work. Would you (or anyone else on list) happen to have John Treat's e-mail? I admire _Writing Ground Zero_ a great deal, and would like to exchange some ideas with him. Kent On Nov. 19, Dean Brink wrote: > Sounds like Kent Johnson would like all of us to read the Yasusada > book even if it isn't by Yasusada. Splendid attitude. > > Now the question is Why not use your own name? > Again, the specter of Orientalism underlies your self-deploying fanfare. > > Your lackadaisical nonchalance regarding the falsification of A-Bomb > survivor literature is tantamount to forging Jewish Holocaust literature > just to make a buck at Borders (a similar point was made to me by John > Treat recently). > > > > > dean brink > EALC UChicago > dean@w-link.net > interpoetics - poetry of Asia and the Pacific Rim > www.w-link.net/~dean/interpoetics/index.html > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:03:15 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas Comments: To: "Dean A. Brink" In-Reply-To: <3473B4ED.64D894D4@w-link.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Dean A. Brink wrote: > I would like to discuss this issue further, but you must refrain from per= sonal >=20 > attacks (how am I "self-congratulating"?) and speak to the contents of my > insinuations (in this long-established discourse). > The issue is the forging of the book not the quality -- which, as has bee= n > established from the pieces in print, is less than satisfactory: predicta= ble > attempts at entrepreneurial Orientalism, riddled with affective clich=E9s= and > revealing a shallow understanding of Japanese life (to be expected of an > American ignorant of Japan); devaluation of the lives of actual Japanese = who > experience the effects of the A-bombs still today. I think that the actual real A-bomb devalued the lives of its victims a hell of a lot more than any poem ever could. =20 > A couple years ago in Japan a major magazine ran an article on the fact t= hat > the Jewish Holocaust never happened. Should this be ignored too? (The mag= azine > folded soon after, to take responsibility for the outrage.) Does Kent Johnson, or anyone else, deny that A-bombs were dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima? =20 > Last week a judicial nominee withdrew his name after admitting to have > falsified stories of tragic racial violence against a member of his famil= y in > the 1940s or 50s. He took responsibility for using historical tragedy for > personal gains. Thanks for the update, but I read the papers and listen to NPR, too. > Similarly I think informed readers should know what they're buying and bo= ycott > the Johnson book if they don't want to contribute to the distortion and > consecration of historical tragedies (note that racism figures in all the= se > example of the Jewish Holocaust, the decision to drop the A-bomb twice on > Japan, and the murder of African Americans in the pre-civil rights US). You've been living in the world of discourse for too long. No one denies that these events are catastrophic and evil. What I object too, and called "self-congratulatory," was the assumption that you are the lone crusader, on this list, for justice.=20 =09And I object to criticizing books you haven't read. Even if you know they're evil. Some time back when I worked as a free lance journalist I wrote about the Turner Diaries, assuming before I read it that it would be vile and disgusting based on what I'd heard. But before I wrote about it, for the now defunct Minneapolis _City Pages_, I read the book. Guess what? I read it, wrote more intelligently about it than I would have otherwise, and still to this day have not lynched a single person of color or feminist. =09I also object to the assumption that it is impossible for someone to write in a persona, to IMAGINE what it might be like to be a survivor of the Atomic bomb. In the Yasusada poems I've read, it seems like the poet does an adequate job. I could be wrong. You could even demonstrate to me that I've read badly, that I'm wrong, but not if you haven't read the poems yourself. > I can't imagine anyone seriously reading the Yasusada book except as a ca= se > study in an ethics course, or a literary theory class discussing the limi= ts of > postmodernism (I hope no one actually does this, wouldn't want to fuel hi= s > projects). Who was your critical mentor, the Ayatollah Khomeini? For he too knew all about certain books without having to read them. =09The discourse of Orientalism is problem, and when it distorts the lives and experiences of other people, it should be criticized.If the Johnson book actually does that, go after it. But you don't really know if it does or not. Is this what you are learning in graduate school, how to make authorative pronouncements about books you haven't read? I don't think that's what your teachers really want. David Zauhar ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:18:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: discontented graduate students send for catalogues In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Let the record show I have not met "Kent Johnson" and have no debt to him. I mentioned the article simply because it was as close to a mention in a major newspaper as recent American poetry has gotten in a good while (forgive me, Bob Holman). If Andy Warhol was right and publicity is a good in itself, then good for "Kent". While I can't offer the intense discounts Yasusada-publisher James Sherry used to dangle before this list, I can send Teachers & Writers' fall catalogue out to anyone here who e-mails their mailing address to me. We have several non-theoretical graduate-student-irritating titles by Kenneth Koch, and a few point-making books edited by Ron Padgett (including _Handbook of Poetic Forms_ -- ask Mark Baker! -- and _T&W Guide to Walt Whitman_). Oh all right, here's a discount -- e-mail me today and I'll send you Ron Padgett's _Creative Reading_ for $20 ppd, a 20% savings off the usual deal (US & Canada US$20, elsewhere US$25). Signed, "Jordan" On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, David Zauhar wrote: > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, William Burmeister Prod wrote: > > And through readings. I just finished this morning reading poetry to a group of > > elementary school children (K through 5). Read to them from Roethke's _Praise > > to the End!_, _Words to the wind_, and _I am! Says the Lamb_. It was exciting > > to see how much poetry appeared to still have a place in their lives, and how > > their teachers gave poetry writing assignments. > > > > William Burmeister > > > Yes! Along these lines, a lot of those Kenneth Koch and Ron Padgett books > from the Teachers and Writers Collaborative (did I get the name right?) > might be helpful. They're not theoretical enough to please many graduate > school types (of which I'm one), but they do make points about the place > of the aesthetic in education. > > This summer I taught some 6-8 graders. Their favorite: Wallace Stevens' > "13 Ways of Looking at a Blackbird." At least in terms of generating > imitations and parodies. > > Dave Zauhar > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:16:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Eric Blarnes Subject: religion On 11.29.97, Jack Spandrift said: >well, respondin to Rev. Gould's latest bromides, I'd like to paraphrase >that famous RUSSKIE poet, Marina Tsvetaeva: "In this most Milquetoast >$$CHRISTIAN$$ empire of ours, the poet is a blue-nosed coyote." Now Jack, don't go spoiling Henry's sermons. You know he means well, and - >>>>>yeah, yeah, yeah...he's from MINNESOTA!!!! AAAAARRRRGGHGGHGHHH!!!!! >>>>>If I ever get ahold of him, I'll wrap his email around what's left >>>>>of it & tie him to a steak & let the vultures at him and.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:33:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Fw: Re: Yasusada in Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----Original Message----- From: Dean A. Brink >I can't imagine anyone seriously reading the Yasusada book except as a case >study in an ethics course, or a literary theory class discussing the limits of >postmodernism (I hope no one actually does this, wouldn't want to fuel his >projects). So, Dean Brink can't imagine why I might want to read the book? Wow, I guess I won't read it then. . . Perhaps you shouldn't give your imagination so much credit. Just because you can't imagine why somebody would read (or do) something doesn't mean they don't have legitimate reasons for doing exactly that. That aporia is precisely enough to further my interest. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:04:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: democracy In-Reply-To: from "p. durgin" at Nov 19, 97 05:12:43 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It seems we've started an interesting chian of misreadings, fruitful I hope. In any event, Burke's own dialectical process is anything but absolutist. And he's saved from extremes by his insistence that philosophy, like poetry, is rhetorical - about strategies rather than truths. Essentially he's a pragmatist not unlike Wm James or Dewey, in the sense that he believes that, as Dewey says, "Philosophy is not a form of knowledge. Philosophy is a form of desire, of effort at action." Any utopia which a writer posits then (and I'm thinking particularly of utopias posited at the level of syntax in a Jackson MacLow and others, not a story about "why can't we all get along") is good for what it *does* not for what it *is*. In regards to poetry, Burke describes it this way: "The general approach to the poem might be called 'pragmatic' in this sense: It assumes that a poems structure is to be described most accurately by thinking always of the poems function. It assumes that the poem is designed to 'do something' for the poet and his readers, and that we can make the most relevant observations about its design by considering the poem as the embodiment of this act." So, looked at in this light - utopia as a rhetorical strategy, as socially symbolic act and not absolute at all - that's what I'm getting at I guess. -m. According to p. durgin: > > No No No -- Not what I was saying at all. I'm just skeptical of > a dialectical process whose extremes are absolutes, ie. "perfect" -- > Although I'm not as familiar with Burke's system as perhaps I should be, > the dynamic vaguely resembles typical, western, macho blunders through the > ages. > > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > ___________________________ > > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Michael Magee wrote: > > > Far from it. I am a writer so I could harly be a what-good-is-a-writer. > > In Burke's sense, "deferred action" is the dialectical counterpart to > > "things is not perfect," hence its utopian character - it shows > > symbolically what could be and sets itself in dialogue with what is (or > > isn't). Though, do you really think things could be *perfect*? I think > > we'd all have to be dead for that. -m. > > > > According to p. durgin: > > > > "defferred action" sounds like a what-good-is-a-writer telling us > > > that "things is not perfect" as I imagine they could be. > > > > > > > > > |||pdurgin@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu||| > > > ___________________________ > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:07:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 9:03 AM -0600 11/20/97, David Zauhar wrote: >On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Dean A. Brink wrote: > >> I would like to discuss this issue further, but you must refrain from >>personal >> >> attacks (how am I "self-congratulating"?) and speak to the contents of my >> insinuations (in this long-established discourse). >> The issue is the forging of the book not the quality -- which, as has bee= n >> established from the pieces in print, is less than satisfactory: predicta= ble >> attempts at entrepreneurial Orientalism, riddled with affective clich=C8s= and >> revealing a shallow understanding of Japanese life (to be expected of an >> American ignorant of Japan); devaluation of the lives of actual Japanese = who >> experience the effects of the A-bombs still today. > >I think that the actual real A-bomb devalued the lives of its victims a >hell of a lot more than any poem ever could. > >> A couple years ago in Japan a major magazine ran an article on the fact t= hat >> the Jewish Holocaust never happened. Should this be ignored too? (The >>magazine >> folded soon after, to take responsibility for the outrage.) > >Does Kent Johnson, or anyone else, deny that A-bombs were dropped on >Nagasaki and Hiroshima? > > >> Last week a judicial nominee withdrew his name after admitting to have >> falsified stories of tragic racial violence against a member of his >>family in >> the 1940s or 50s. He took responsibility for using historical tragedy for >> personal gains. > >Thanks for the update, but I read the papers and listen to NPR, too. > >> Similarly I think informed readers should know what they're buying and >>boycott >> the Johnson book if they don't want to contribute to the distortion and >> consecration of historical tragedies (note that racism figures in all the= se >> example of the Jewish Holocaust, the decision to drop the A-bomb twice on >> Japan, and the murder of African Americans in the pre-civil rights US). > >You've been living in the world of discourse for too long. No one denies >that these events are catastrophic and evil. What I object too, and called >"self-congratulatory," was the assumption that you are the lone crusader, >on this list, for justice. > And I object to criticizing books you haven't read. Even if you >know they're evil. Some time back when I worked as a free lance >journalist I wrote about the Turner Diaries, assuming before I read it >that it would be vile and disgusting based on what I'd heard. But before I >wrote about it, for the now defunct Minneapolis _City Pages_, I read the >book. Guess what? I read it, wrote more intelligently about it than I >would have otherwise, and still to this day have not lynched a single >person of color or feminist. > I also object to the assumption that it is impossible for someone >to write in a persona, to IMAGINE what it might be like to be a survivor >of the Atomic bomb. In the Yasusada poems I've read, it seems like the >poet does an adequate job. I could be wrong. You could even demonstrate to >me that I've read badly, that I'm wrong, but not if you haven't read the >poems yourself. > > >> I can't imagine anyone seriously reading the Yasusada book except as a ca= se >> study in an ethics course, or a literary theory class discussing the >>limits of >> postmodernism (I hope no one actually does this, wouldn't want to fuel hi= s >> projects). > >Who was your critical mentor, the Ayatollah Khomeini? For he too knew all >about certain books without having to read them. > The discourse of Orientalism is problem, and when it distorts the >lives and experiences of other people, it should be criticized.If the >Johnson book actually does that, go after it. But you don't really know >if it does or not. Is this what you are learning in graduate school, how >to make authorative pronouncements about books you haven't read? I don't >think that's what your teachers really want. > >David Zauhar jeez dave, there are enough *ideas* at stake here to make personal attack unnecessary. even kent himself in his response was not so virulent. i tend to agree w/ dean, tho i'd probly express myself in milder terms. and why assume that people who raise the issue of social justice and the ethical problems with appropriation are dupes of something you call "discourse?" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:10:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: discontented graduate students send for catalogues In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A spur of the moment and awkward attempt at light-heartedness on my part, and I apologize to Jordan. I guess I was assuming everyone would know that Jordan and I didn't know each other! As far as the mention of American poetry in major newspapers, the Asahi Shimbun, Japan's major newspaper, carried a front page story about the Yasusada discussion in August (this was reprinted in a number of newspapers in Japan, including in Hiroshima), and this was followed up by an article by Akitoshi Nagahata a couple weeks later in the Asahi. I mention this not because I think publicity is "good for its own sake" (for what it's worth, I don't), but because I think it is significant that a serious consideration of Yasusada's aesthetic and ethical implications is emerging in Japan, and it will be very interesting to see the positions taken and how they compare to the strong and very different evaluations here. Kent On Nov. 20, Jordan Davis wrote: > Let the record show I have not met "Kent Johnson" and have no debt to him. > I mentioned the article simply because it was as close to a mention in a > major newspaper as recent American poetry has gotten in a good while > (forgive me, Bob Holman). If Andy Warhol was right and publicity is a good > in itself, then good for "Kent". > > While I can't offer the intense discounts Yasusada-publisher James Sherry > used to dangle before this list, I can send Teachers & Writers' fall > catalogue out to anyone here who e-mails their mailing address to me. We > have several non-theoretical graduate-student-irritating titles by Kenneth > Koch, and a few point-making books edited by Ron Padgett (including > _Handbook of Poetic Forms_ -- ask Mark Baker! -- and _T&W Guide to Walt > Whitman_). Oh all right, here's a discount -- e-mail me today and I'll > send you Ron Padgett's _Creative Reading_ for $20 ppd, a 20% savings off > the usual deal (US & Canada US$20, elsewhere US$25). > > Signed, > "Jordan" > > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, David Zauhar wrote: > > > On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, William Burmeister Prod wrote: > > > And through readings. I just finished this morning reading poetry to a group of > > > elementary school children (K through 5). Read to them from Roethke's _Praise > > > to the End!_, _Words to the wind_, and _I am! Says the Lamb_. It was exciting > > > to see how much poetry appeared to still have a place in their lives, and how > > > their teachers gave poetry writing assignments. > > > > > > William Burmeister > > > > > Yes! Along these lines, a lot of those Kenneth Koch and Ron Padgett books > > from the Teachers and Writers Collaborative (did I get the name right?) > > might be helpful. They're not theoretical enough to please many graduate > > school types (of which I'm one), but they do make points about the place > > of the aesthetic in education. > > > > This summer I taught some 6-8 graders. Their favorite: Wallace Stevens' > > "13 Ways of Looking at a Blackbird." At least in terms of generating > > imitations and parodies. > > > > Dave Zauhar > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:42:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: rediscovered contentiousness In-Reply-To: <197CDAA1B62@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "Kent" -- Sorry to have assumed that the Yasusadayada was in fact a publicity scheme! I don't know where I could have gotten this idea! I regret that because I am on a tight budget the Roof Book-to-be-published-next-year I am planning on acquiring is not the Yasusada book but Brian Kim Stefans' _Free Space Comix_! Best of luck! -- "Jordan" At 10:10 AM -0500 11/20/97, KENT JOHNSON wrote: >A spur of the moment and awkward attempt at light-heartedness on my >part, and I apologize to Jordan. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:49:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Parsing praise in Thunder Bay MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Speaking (as some here were some days ago) of Joseph Brodskey, one of his poems I like best is one that (if recollection serves) ends w/ the thought that no matter what sufferings are traversed, "gratitude will gush from my mouth" . . this, apropos of the appended academic anunciation -- for poss. interest of the assembled worthies kudos, etc., d.i. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:10:51 -0500 From: "Franklin D. Lewis" Subject: Literary Modalities of Praise: Conference (fwd) To: ADABIYAT@LISTSERV.CC.EMORY.EDU ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:40:49 -0500 From: Joan Dolphin Reply-To: adenotte@sky.lakeheadu.ca To: cfp@english.upenn.edu Subject: CFP: Literary Modalities of Praise (4/15; 10/2-10/4) Call for Papers Lakehead University English Department invites paper proposals for our 1998 Conference: "Literary Modalities of Praise" October 2-4, 1998 What is praise? What linguistic modalities make it known? How do past or present authors effectively praise nature, the supernatural, people, or language itself? How is contemporary literary theory skeptical of praise? Is there a place for praise in literary studies that is not hagiographic, sentimental, or commercial? What is the role of epideictic rhetoric in the construction of literary or artistic discourse communities? How are praise and dialogical play interrelated? What might "constructive" praise look like in composition and pedagogy? If we deconstruct ideology far enough, will the absence at the center be affirming in any way? Why praise? "Ever newly begin the praise you cannot accomplish." --Rainer Maria Rilke Please send abstracts (or papers) for 20 minute presentations before April 15, 1998 to: A.G. den Otter, English, Lakehead University, 955 Oliver Road, Thunder Bay, Ontario P7B 5E1 adenotte@sky.lakeheadu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:37:42 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Maria writes: > jeez dave [Zauhar], there are enough *ideas* at stake here to make personal > attack unnecessary. even kent himself in his response was not so virulent. > i tend to agree w/ dean, tho i'd probly express myself in milder terms. discussions about controversial topics are always subject to this pattern of escalation--which is why you can start off arguing about who is to do the dishes, & end up being called or calling someone "asshole" & the like. while I agree with Maria here, that we might be able to have this discussion without that sort of interference, I wld also like to point out that escalation is something like a virus: it comes from somewhere & it goes somewhere. in this case, I think it's a little silly to jump on Dave Zauhar for an inflammatory ad hominem post without acknowledging that Dean's remarks about "self-deploying fanfare" & "lackadaisical nonchalance" hardly meet the standard of disinterested criticism he's bearing. incidentally, I wonder if we can look a little more closely at the frequently levelled accusation that (assuming for a second that which is by no means a foregone conclusion) Kent constructed this project to enrich himself either in terms of monetary or cultural capital (I think the statement in this case was "tantamount to forging Jewish Holocaust literature just to make a buck at Borders"--not an outright accusation, but the implication is there). now, before folks start jumping on my head, let me say this isn't quite a defense of the project--which *does* have very serious ethical implications of which *all* of us are aware-- so much as it is a wish to drop excess baggage. does anyone seriously believe that the AY author is going to make his/her fortune from the sales of this book? that it's going to get him or her a great job somewhere? from what I've seen so far, Kent, as the most prominent figure in the affair, isn't rolling in ill-gotten gains, be they monetary or, again, cultural capital. in fact, except for a few supporters & a few more temperate critics, he's been absolutely reviled at every turn as an unredeemed racist who tells the worst kind of lie--the one we believed. now, I'd love to have this discussion again, but first can we all go back to our corners & figure out what's really at stake? best, Chris .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. / nominative press collective email: calexand@library.utah.edu snail-mail: P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 press/zine site: http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:29:47 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Fairbank Chirot Subject: Re: Futurists, Formalists, Acmeists In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19971112152606.006ed890@popmail.lmu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Having been away from this list for some time due to work in visual poetry, painting, etc.--this note may be somewhat late. In the discussion of the futurists, formalists and acmeists, an important work to consider is The Futurists, the Formalists and the Marxist Critique, edited and introduced by Chritospher Pike with translations by Pike and Joe Andrews as well as prefaces, notes and afterword provided by Gerard Conio and translated from the French by R. Swyer. London: Ink Links, 1979. The influence of the formalists in the last quarter century on many aspects of "language centered writing " is well known, and the influence of the Acmeists, both in Russia and the USA today, is also well known. The work of the Futurists however has been for the most part suppressed or distorted. Indeed, in an essay in the Chuch Welch edited book Eternal Network, the Russian visual poet and mail artist Rea Nikonovna notes that when she and her husband fellow visual poet and mail artist published the Samizdat journal Transpolans in the 1970s, a Neo-Futurist journal, it was widely attacked by both the social realists and the conservatives of the Acmeist schools.Personally and as a writer and visual poet, I find that much more is to be learned from the Russian Futurists, that there is much to consider in their work, their manifestos, their visual poetry and artists books--and perhaps that is why they are still largely ignored, because they offer ways of working and thinking opposed to the more easily acceptable formalists and Acmeists. I would hope that with the slowly growing body of work in English language concerning the Futurists more recognition and thought will be given to them and their work. While attending a Visual Poetry conference last summer in Edmonton, I found that to the poets from Russia and Ukraine, the greatest poets of this century for them are the Futurists Khlebnikov and Kruchonyhk--not the Acmeists or the formalists. There are a number of excellent books now available on Russian Futurism; one that is in part available on the web is Gerald Janecek's Zaum The transrational poetry of Russian Futurism which is mainly concerned with the work of Kruchonyhk. Chapters from the book and some of the work of Kruchonhyk may be found at Light and Dust http://www.thing.net/~grist/homekarl.htm from Zaumland-- dbchirot ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:47:39 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry G Subject: Re: Futurists, Formalists, Acmeists In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 20 Nov 1997 14:29:47 -0600 from I have heard from others that the work of Kruchonyk, not widely known in the US (to say the least) is very strong. I can't argue with your version of the respective treatment of Acmeists or Futurists in Russia, Dave, but I'm skeptical of a simplified victimology ("futurists were ignored or suppressed"). For one thing, the formalists were critics & literary scholars, not a school of poetry - & they focused on the futurists in their studies as well as on the "acmeist school" (it never was a "school" - unless you're talking about people like A. Kushner, an academic Mandelstam imitator of the present generation). Secondly, as I understand it, the interest of some of the language poets in russian poetry had a LOT to do with the futurists, not just the theories of the formalists. Khlebnikov has had at least as much a vogue on that score as the acmeists. Mikhail Epstein has an interesting essay comparing end-of-century russian "schools" with the big 3 at the beginning of century (symbolism acmeism, futurism) in the THIRD WAVE anthology. But it's also sort of creatively forced & schematic. Acmeism... it's sort of shorthand for particular poets, like Gumilev, Mandelstam & Akhmatova. But it means what you make of it these days (the way Epstein did). The fact is Mandelstam & Akhmatova left not only a body of poetry but of theoretical writings & essays for scholars to chew over; Khlebnikov did the same, but less traditional & more difficult to analyze. Maybe that's part of the "problem". But is it a problem? They were not airtight schools by any means. Mandelstam held Khlebnikov in high regard & some say elements of his style were drawn from K. during the 20s. Pasternak, closely associated with the futurists, has certainly gotten at least as much attention as the "acmeists". - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:09:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: lingo In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Damn, every time I try to reply to a Bromige bromide, my damned server freezes. Ouch! Damn, I hate having a frozen server. But I sure like having Bromige on the line. He is a warm person. I melt when I hear his warm English cadence. I have also just read 2 more books by rae Armantrout. Boy, is she good. And I am thankful to Brmige for touting her to me a few years ago. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:18:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Andrews poem Tom (Vogler)--Eyebrow-raisingly enough, Robert Pinsky devotes 2+ pages to "Bananas are an example" in *The Situation of Poetry* (Princeton, 1976), and discusses it in terms of--guess what?--the logic of exemplification. According to Pinsky's note, the poem was published in The Paris Review 53 (1972), p. 162. Whether it's reprinted in one of Bruce's books I don't know. Whoda thunk it? Alan (Though someone who took a workshop with RP once told me that he discussed Grenier with some modicum of interest.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:35:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Timothy Materer Subject: MODERN_POETS-L Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Listmembers: If anyone would like to add to or vary their e-mail by joining a modern poetry discussion group, you would be especially welcome: MODERN_POETS-L is an electronic discussion list devoted particularly to the generation of poets whose work developed from the 1900s through the 1940s, including Wallace Stevens, Marianne Moore, Hart Crane, Robert Frost, W. H. Auden, Mina Loy, Langston Hughes, and William Carlos Williams. (This listing is not restrictive. Ezra Pound, T. S. Eliot and H.D. are not mentioned because they have active lists of their own. ) Poets whose careers were briefer or less influential are welcome in the discussion as well as later ones who have brought modernist poetics into the contemporary scene. The discussion will develop according to the interests of the list members. The list is unmoderated and open to all readers of modern poetry. Questions should be addressed to Timothy Materer at the University of Missouri To subscribe to MODERN_POETS-L, send a message to listproc@lists.missouri.edu leaving the Subject line blank. In the body of the message, enter the single line: SUBSCRIBE MODERN_POETS-L Yourfirstname Yourlastname Timothy Materer, 228 Tate, English Department University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 19:13:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Mail Strike in Canada Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This is a quick notice to the people who have kindly indicated that they would like to subscribe to ESSEX: Canada Post is on strike which prevents me, for the time being, from mailing issues to new subscribers. Please hold off on posting payment to the Toronto address for now. There's good indication that the strike may be over in a week. If the strike drags on I will mail stuff out from Buffalo the next time I'm down, which will be within the next month for sure. Thanks, Scott Pound ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:22:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: latest hit theyre hummin in yasonoma county Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yasu, thats my sada nosu, dont mean nada yesu, thats my sada now and on that day yes on that day i'm gonna walk up to that sherry-man & say roof books, do my sada yasu, dont mean nada roof books, do my sada now it's not a hoax it is a hoax the author's dead & here we have the quotes & if it floats yes if it floats or if it sinks or swims kent proudly boasts yasu thats my saga now, fans, dont go gaga get on line buy yasusada no-ow now here's my point: creation's joint the eye of the beholder proves my point: yasu, thats _your_ sada nosu, thats _your_ nada send _your_ dough for yasusada no-ow! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:17:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: latest hit theyre hummin in yasonoma county Comments: cc: lew@humnet.ucla.edu In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks bromige for the terrific laugh! At 6:22 PM -0800 11/20/97, david bromige wrote: >yasu, thats my sada >nosu, dont mean nada >yesu, thats my sada now > >and on that day >yes on that day >i'm gonna walk up to that sherry-man & say > >roof books, do my sada >yasu, dont mean nada >roof books, do my sada now > >it's not a hoax >it is a hoax >the author's dead & here we have the quotes > >& if it floats >yes if it floats >or if it sinks or swims kent proudly boasts > >yasu thats my saga >now, fans, dont go gaga >get on line buy yasusada no-ow > >now here's my point: >creation's joint >the eye of the beholder proves my point: > >yasu, thats _your_ sada >nosu, thats _your_ nada >send _your_ dough for yasusada no-ow! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 00:25:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: latest hit theyre hummin in yasonoma county MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don't know, but it seems most of us aren't really interested and/or are bored with the Yasusada crap, lets move along, get over it, OK. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 01:24:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: David Ignatow (1914-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" David Ignatow died on Monday, according to an obituary in Wednesay's New York Times. from "All Else is Prelude" in The One and the Many: "If language could save me from death, I would already have been declared bodily immortal. I wrote that with thought in mind, thinking writing was an elixir of the secret of living forever, until I began to spy my hair graying. I had to a knowledge that if there is immortality, it is in writing itself as an art, not as an elixir of the body's survival. Now I have to write so that what I write has the very breadth of life itself, such as I can write into it to have it live beyond me, for me, by me, having by then died." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:02:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Davis and in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Small Press Traffic presents: Tim Davis John Tranter Saturday, November 29, 7:30 p.m. New College Cultural Center 766 Valencia Street, San Francisco $5 Tim Davis is the author of two chapbooks, _My Life In Politics--or--A History of N=3DA=3DR=3DR=3DA=3DT=3DI=3DV=3DE Film_ (Object Editions/Poetscoo= p) and _The Analogy Guild_ (Arras Press). He is also a ukeleleist, photographer, assistant editor at New Directions. =B3These days,=B2 he writes, he =B3seems= to feel both shaken and stirred.=B2 Davis is among the new generation of young poets who have once more made New York the poetry capital of America while we look on with remote envy and fascination. His writing combines every mode you can think of with volley upon volley of perception, analysis and a thousand jokes and puns. =B3Their masseuses telex like it is/ a peace ribbon= / frayed with lack of rage/ there=B9s an =8Ca so=B9 in Mason/ but I don=B9t= know/ all society is secret our/ crinoline rallying cries claim.=B2 Born in 1943, John Tranter is the =B3leading Australian poet of his generation.=B2 He has published ten volumes of poetry, including a _Selected Poems_ (Hale & Iremonger, Sydney, 1982). His most recent books are _The =46loor of Heaven_ (1992), and _At The Florida_ (1993). His work appears in the _Norton Anthology of Modern Poetry_ (New York, second edition, 1988). He compiled and edited (with Philip Mead) the 1992 _Penguin Book of Modern Australian Poetry_. Earlier anthologies include the controversial _The New Australian Poetry_ (1979). Tranter has published widely at home and abroad in the _Paris Review, Kenyon Review, Grand Street, New American Writing, Conjunctions, Boulevard,_ and _Post-Modern Culture_ (on the Internet). He now lives in Sydney. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:56:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: David Ignatow (1914-1997) In-Reply-To: Charles Bernstein "David Ignatow (1914-1997)" (Nov 21, 1:24am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Nov 21, 1:24am, Charles Bernstein wrote: > Subject: David Ignatow (1914-1997) > David Ignatow died on Monday, according to an obituary in Wednesay's New > York Times. > > from "All Else is Prelude" in The One and the Many: > > "If language could save me from death, I would already have been declared > bodily immortal. I wrote that with thought in mind, thinking writing was an > elixir of the secret of living forever, until I began to spy my hair > graying. I had to a knowledge that if there is immortality, it is in > writing itself as an art, not as an elixir of the body's survival. > Now I have to write so that what I write has the very breadth of life > itself, such as I can write into it to have it live beyond me, for me, by > me, having by then died." >-- End of excerpt from Charles Bernstein Thank you Charles for relaying the sad news. I didn't know him personally, but I have been reading him with much interest. David Ignatow was a poet of uncommon, brutal honesty. A poet of the real but also a poet of alternate reality, of very real possibilities (the 'what if,' or 'why not'). I have found in his poetry a tough but hopeful dialogue with self; far from familiar, even his physical self to him could be as other as deathly reflection in a mirror. His journals reveal this lifelong struggle with his own identity and mortality. They also point to him as poet/citizen having a considerable political conscience. He too has been underestimated, always there prolifically writing away in the background, but I don't think this will continue to be the case. Sadly - William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:33:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: (Fwd) Cheap Print & Pop Culture (CFP) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Poetas, got the appended, and thought it might interest some here. In particular, although evidently the tabloid press (& maybe pulp fiction?) is the probable major focus of the requested essays, seems to me there may well be scope for discussion of that fave topic here in Poetics land -- the Xerox-zine / Mimeo-zine [or other variants of nonofficial publication] -- as note the inviter's remark: << . . . these essays should focus on the way in which cheap print in general, or particular print forms, can not only represent but transform culture. >> She does also refer to << studying the format of cheap, mass-distributed print>> so while those myriad of mimeo / xerox poetry magazines all qualify in terms of "cheap", whether they qualify in terms of "mas-distributed" is another kettle of worms / can of fish. I leave that to work out with your prospective editor . . . d.i. btw, I don't subscribe to the "calls for papers" mailing list, but one supposes that some diehard essayists might find it of interest (see end of post for particulars) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 21:56:55 -0500 From: "Deborah Applegate (GD 1996)" To: cfp@english.upenn.edu Subject: CFP: Cheap Print & Pop Culture (1/15; collection) CALL FOR CONTRIBUTORS: TABLOID HISTORY: CHEAP PRINT AND POPULAR CULTURE I would like to invite you, to submit a portion of your work for a volume of collected essays entitled, "Tabloid History: Cheap Print and Popular Culture." "Tabloid History" is designed as a collection of essays depicting the ways in which studying the format of cheap, mass-distributed print changes our understanding of cultural and literary history. In contrast to recent volumes which present periodicals through more traditional forms of literary/publishing history, these essays should focus on the way in which cheap print in general, or particular print forms, can not only represent but transform culture. All topics, geographical regions and time periods are welcome. Interdisciplinary work is strongly encouraged. Submissions will be chosen on the basis of their interpretive and methodological contributions. My idea is that the essays will be as clear and brief as possible. They should be useful both for scholars trying to think in new ways with pthis material and for undergraduate classes looking to combine primary fmaterials with a good secondary essay that will illuminate the toriginal documents. I'm less interested in getting a bunch of brand new pwork, per se, as much as distilling the best lessons from the work that tpeople are already doing. Because I would like to move along the pace of this project, I'd be grateful if you could contact me immediately if you are at all interested in contributing. The deadline for abstracts is Jan. 15, so I can get preliminary approval from the publisher. Thank you very much for your time, Debby Applegate American Studies Program Yale University 53 Lawrence St. New Haven, CT 06511 deborah.applegate@yale.edu =============================================== From the Literary Calls for Papers Mailing List CFP@english.upenn.edu Full Information at http://www.english.upenn.edu/CFP/ or write Jack Lynch: jlynch@english.upenn.edu =============================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:33:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: David Ignatow (1914-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A couple years ago, he gave a lively reading at Beyond Baroque. He was wonderful, and a very pleasant person to boot. Sorry to hear about his passing ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:53:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry McGuire Subject: special issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This issue of _College Literature_, just out, may interest some of you. Diversity and American Poetries College Literature 24.3, Oct. 1997 Guest Editor, Jerry McGuire Contents: Jerry McGuire..........Introduction: Diversity, Factionalism, and Audience Richard Masteller......Between Silence and Banality: The Poetic Search for Community Janet Zandy............Fire Poetry on the Triangle Shirtwaist Company Fire of March 25, 1911 Walter Kalaidjian......"Deeds Were Their Last Words": The Return of Edwin Rolfe Albert Cook............Metrical Inventions: Zukofsky and Merwin Karen J. Ford..........These Old Writing Paper Blues: The Blues Stanza and Literary Poetry Jonathan N. Barron.....At Home in the Margins: The Jewish American Voice Poem in the 1990s Nicky Marsh............"Out of My Texts I Am Not What I Play": Politics and Self in the Poetry of Susan Howe Charles Bernstein......Riding's Reasons: An Introduction to Laura (Riding) Jackson and Schuyler Jackson, _Rational Meaning: Toward a New Foundation of Words_ REVIEW ESSAYS Timothy Brennan........Controlling Terms: Originality in African Diasporic Studies [Reviews Tejumola Olaniyan, _Scars of Conquest/ Masks of Resistance_; Farah Jasmine Griffin, _Who Set You Flowin'?: The African-American Migration Narrative_] Anthony Dawahare.......The Remembering and Remaking of American Working Class Life and Literature [Reviews Constance Coiner, _Better Red: The Writing and Resistance of Tillie Olsen and Meridel LeSueur_; Janet Zandy, ed., _Liberating Memory: Our Work and Our Working-Class Consciousness_] David Stouck...........Willa Cather and Cultural Studies [Reviews Joseph Urgo, _Willa Cather and the Myth of American Migration_; Walter Benn Michaels, _Our America: Nativism, Modernism, Pluralism_] Marc Ratner............A Larger "Slice of Life": Re-Assessing Literary Naturalism [Reviews _Paul Civello, _American Literary Naturalism and Its Twentieth-Century Transformations_; James R. Giles, _The Naturalistic Inner-City Novel in America: Encounters with the Fat Man_] T. J. Arant............Trouble with Anthologies [Reviews John Ed Pearce, _Days of Darkness: The Feuds of Eastern Kentucky_; Robert J. Higgs, Ambrose N. Manning, and Jim Wayne Miller, eds., Appalachia Inside Out, Volume 1: Conflict and Change_; and Volume 2: Culture and Custom_] Feroza Jussawalla......Children's Literature [Review of Peter Hunt, _An Intro- duction to Children's Literature_; Gillian Avery, _Behold the Child: American Children and Their Books 1621-1922_] The special issue is available at $8 per copy. A one year subscription is $24.00. Requests for the issue can be sent, with a check payable to COLLEGE LITERATURE, to: COLLEGE LITERATURE, SSC II C-474, West Chester University West Chester, PA 19383 All best-- Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:38:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Dia Reading / NYC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kathleen Fraser & CharlesBernstein reading at DIA Center for the Arts Friday, December 5, 7pm 548 West 22nd Street New York, NY ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:30:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: quadrosyllabics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Poetas, hazarding outre tangentiality, here's forwarding a post of mine from the SoAsian Literature listserv -- with my runaway exploration of quadrosyllabics [or is that quatro-?] in English. cheers, d.i. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: David R. Israel To: SASIALIT@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU Subject: 2nd syllable stress Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:22:04 -0400 [ was, Re: regarding farsi ] Moazzam, thanks for the excerpt from Manto's letter to Nehru -- this is the 1st of read of this much-mentioned Manto, and he seems witty & likeable. / / / / / Hope you'll pardon me if I pedantically quibble over one small point of English. Your point was quite good, and yet the illustration was poss. inaccurate in one particular. You wrote -- >. . . When a word travels, it is vulnerable to > the new environment. Everyone, or a vast majority at least, in the > Subcontinent pronounce 'photo graphy', as with two equal stresses, > not realizing that English is a stress language, and a 'native', and > I understand I am here as vulnerable as any word, of English will > pronounce 'ph[]tography' putting the stress on the first syllable. Did you really mean the *first* syllable -- i.e., PHOto-graphy? There are many differences in stress between British pronunciation and American. Here are a few common examples (using capitalized syllables to denote the syllable wherein occurs the stress): American British ___________________________ garAGE GARage LABoratory laBORatory WEEKend weekEND As a "native American speaker" (not to say an Amerindian), I can tell you (with a sense of conviction) that photography, in the U.s., is properly pronounced with stress on the 2nd (not 1st) syllable -- i.e., phoTOGraphy In this, the word follows the same (2nd-syllable-stress) pattern as is to be seen in similar (4-syllable) words (many of which are, likewise, ideational nouns). There are quite a number of examples. Allow me to present a concatenation of such: biOGraphy / geOGraphy / porNOGraphy / ePIphany / anTIthesis / philOLogy / onTOLogy / onTOGeny / phyLOGeny / onCOLogy / zoOLogy / asTROLogy / exOGgenous / homOLogous / hoMOGinized / biOGraphist / phoTOGraphist / anTHOLogized / asTRONomy / lobBOTomy / eCONomy / exCEEDingly / perNICiously / apPALlingly / enTIrely / reDICulous / psyCHOLogy / aPOLogy / cosMOLogy / anTHOLogy / desPARingly / peDANtically / comMODious / ofFICiously / deLICiously / melLODious / apPARantly / enVItronment / suPERlative / unCERtainty / enVIDeous / comPARative sufFICiency / efFICiency / proDIGiously / prePOSterous / hyPOTHesis / reLIGiously / liTIGinous / phiLOsophy / reLIGionist / acQUIsitive / deRIVitive / reVISionist / acCOUtrement / reQUIRement / aMAZingly / asTONishing / adMONishing / outRAGeously / acCORDingly / afFORDable / supPOSedly / adDORingly / aDORable / imPOSingly / EmPEDocles / PyTHAGoras / HerODdotus / TheuSIDdites [sp?] / EuRIPpides / phoTOGraphous [a neolgism] and the like. [the penultimate 5 words are, of course, Greek names -- but they follow quite the same pattern (prosody), and I suspect that they may well hint at the origin of this stress pattern in English] / / / / / Now, I suppose it's poss. that Britishers may say PHOtography -- they do get a lot of things mixed up like that! ;-) -- but I did think (till seeing your post) that they had *this* one right -- er, I mean, the same as is heard in the American form, which latter is, as said, -- (at least throughout my short lifespan it has been) -- phoTOGraphy (believe it or not . . ) 'nuff said? cordially yours, d.i. p.s.: to wax aphoristic: phoTOGraphy is to biOGraphy as is word to thought . . . . p.p.s.: I dearly hope this runaway tangent of a post [note stress in tanGENtially] may hap to inspire some resident SAsian writer, & thereby beLATedly justify my reCALcitrant [ditto] . . . [etc.] . . . . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 23:53:51 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: quadrosyllabics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, David. Eons ago, in graduate school, I took a course in Japanese morphology which explored, in a language I knew [& still know, sadly] little of, the shifts of syntax specifying the differences between [in English, say] PHOtograph, phoTOGraphy, and photoGRAPHic. Not a bit tangential to my own sense of each word as at least a ratchet set. [All that so I could read the transliterations in Blythe's four volume _Haiku_ properly!] Gotta dig the beat! Daniel Zimmerman David R. Israel wrote: > > Poetas, > > hazarding outre tangentiality, here's forwarding a post of mine from > the SoAsian Literature listserv -- with my runaway exploration of > quadrosyllabics [or is that quatro-?] in English. > > cheers, > d.i. > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > From: David R. Israel > To: SASIALIT@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU > Subject: 2nd syllable stress > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:22:04 -0400 > > [ was, Re: regarding farsi ] > > Moazzam, > > thanks for the excerpt from Manto's letter to Nehru -- this is the 1st > of read of this much-mentioned Manto, and he seems witty & likeable. > > / / / / / > > Hope you'll pardon me if I pedantically quibble over one small point > of English. Your point was quite good, and yet the illustration was > poss. inaccurate in one particular. You wrote -- > > >. . . When a word travels, it is vulnerable to > > the new environment. Everyone, or a vast majority at least, in the > > Subcontinent pronounce 'photo graphy', as with two equal stresses, > > not realizing that English is a stress language, and a 'native', and > > I understand I am here as vulnerable as any word, of English will > > pronounce 'ph[]tography' putting the stress on the first syllable. > > Did you really mean the *first* syllable -- i.e., PHOto-graphy? > > There are many differences in stress between British pronunciation and > American. Here are a few common examples (using capitalized syllables > to denote the syllable wherein occurs the stress): > > American British > ___________________________ > > garAGE GARage > LABoratory laBORatory > WEEKend weekEND > > As a "native American speaker" (not to say an Amerindian), I can tell > you (with a sense of conviction) that photography, in the U.s., is > properly pronounced with stress on the 2nd (not 1st) syllable -- i.e., > > phoTOGraphy > > In this, the word follows the same (2nd-syllable-stress) pattern as is > to be seen in similar (4-syllable) words (many of which are, likewise, > ideational nouns). There are quite a number of examples. Allow me to > present a concatenation of such: > > biOGraphy / geOGraphy / porNOGraphy / > ePIphany / anTIthesis / philOLogy / > > onTOLogy / onTOGeny / phyLOGeny / > onCOLogy / zoOLogy / asTROLogy / > > exOGgenous / homOLogous / hoMOGinized / > biOGraphist / phoTOGraphist / anTHOLogized / > > asTRONomy / lobBOTomy / eCONomy / > exCEEDingly / perNICiously / apPALlingly / > > enTIrely / reDICulous / psyCHOLogy / > aPOLogy / cosMOLogy / anTHOLogy / > > desPARingly / peDANtically / comMODious / > ofFICiously / deLICiously / melLODious / > > apPARantly / enVItronment / suPERlative / > unCERtainty / enVIDeous / comPARative > > sufFICiency / efFICiency / proDIGiously / > prePOSterous / hyPOTHesis / reLIGiously / > > liTIGinous / phiLOsophy / reLIGionist / > acQUIsitive / deRIVitive / reVISionist / > > acCOUtrement / reQUIRement / aMAZingly / > asTONishing / adMONishing / outRAGeously / > > acCORDingly / afFORDable / supPOSedly / > adDORingly / aDORable / imPOSingly / > > EmPEDocles / PyTHAGoras / HerODdotus / > TheuSIDdites [sp?] / EuRIPpides / phoTOGraphous [a neolgism] > > and the like. > > [the penultimate 5 words are, of course, Greek names -- but they > follow quite the same pattern (prosody), and I suspect that they may > well hint at the origin of this stress pattern in English] > > / / / / / > > Now, I suppose it's poss. that Britishers may say PHOtography -- they > do get a lot of things mixed up like that! ;-) -- but I did think > (till seeing your post) that they had *this* one right -- er, I mean, > the same as is heard in the American form, which latter is, as said, > -- (at least throughout my short lifespan it has been) -- > > phoTOGraphy > > (believe it or not . . ) > 'nuff said? > > cordially yours, > d.i. > > p.s.: to wax aphoristic: > > phoTOGraphy is to biOGraphy > as is word to thought . . . . > > p.p.s.: I dearly hope this runaway tangent of a post [note stress in > tanGENtially] may hap to inspire some resident SAsian writer, & > thereby beLATedly justify my reCALcitrant [ditto] . . . [etc.] . . . > . > ..... > ............ > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > > david raphael israel < > >> washington d.c. << > | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) > | disrael@skgf.com (office) > ========================= > | thy centuries follow each other > | perfecting a small wild flower > | (Tagore) > //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:33:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: litpress.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I will be out of town the week of November 24, so there will be no new announcements at LitPress.Com this coming week. For those who may have missed the original post, LitPress.Com features announcments of new publications (books and mags) every Monday. The URL is: http://www.litpress.com The site is sponsored by the good folks at L.A.Books. Please check the site for instructions on posting an announcment of a new publication. And, if you havenUt visited yet, itUs all archived for your browsing pleasure. --Chris Reiner ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:32:56 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Cayley Subject: Chinese New Year comes early Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" OFFERS FROM WELLSWEEP , and one from Indra's Net (see below). I'm offering the books (&/disk) listed below. A couple of them are offered at special prices. The deal is also *post free* (for surface post anywhere & air to Europe; I will add a supplement for airmail outside Europe to the invoice, *if* you request it) and, so long as you order by email, quoting this message, I will send the books with invoice and trust you to send me a cheque (check) by return post. All cheques (checks) to be made payable to 'Wellsweep'. I *can* accept checks in US$ (drawn on US or CDN banks) and US$ prices are shown. All these books are in stock. (The URLS are links to more information.) Newest books first: Zhao, Henry Y. H. & John Cayley ed: ABANDONED WINE. Chinese Writing Today 2. London, 1997. 314 pp. Foreword by Gary Snyder. 20x13 cm. Paper. GBP 8.95 (US$ 15.00) Prose, poetry, essays and fiction by contemporary Chinese writers, selected and translated from the Chinese literary magazine, Today (Jintian). Second in a series of such anthologies. Essential. Yang Lian: WHERE THE SEA STANDS STILL. A Poetic Sequence. Wellsweep Chinese Poets 6+. London, 1995. 32 pp. 4 b/w illustrations by Gao Xingjian. Parallel text. 21x13 cm. Paper. *special price* (usually 3.50) GBP 3.00 (US$ 5.00) Yang Lian (1955- ) is one of the important Chinese poets to have emerged since the late 1970s. His work has been published widely, and he recently edited a special issue of _Index_ on Hong Kong. An important sequence. A version is on the web at . For info. on the book see: . Yang Lian: NON-PERSON SINGULAR. Selected Poems. Wellsweep Chinese Poets 6. London, 1994. 128 pp. Parallel text. 21x13 cm. Cloth *special price* (usually 14.95) GBP 10.00 (US$ 16.00) Paper *special price* (usually 7.95) GBP 7.00 (US$ 12.00) A collection of Yang's shorter poems. See previous. Zhao, Henry Y. H. & John Cayley ed: UNDER-SKY UNDERGROUND. Chinese Writing Today, 1. London, 1994. 247 pp. Foreword by Jonathan Spence. Frontispiece. 20x13 cm. Paper. GBP 7.95 (US$ 13.00) Prose, poetry, essays and fiction by contemporary Chinese writers, selected and translated from the Chinese literary magazine, Today (Jintian). First in a series of such anthologies. See _Abandoned Wine_ above. Hartill, Graham: RUAN JI'S ISLAND & (TU FU) IN THE CITIES. London, 1993. 62 pp. 7 b/w illustrations (and full-colour cover) by Bronwyn Borrow. 20x13 cm. Paper. *special price* (usually 4.95) GBP 4.00 (US$ 6.50) Two seqences of original (and innovative) poetry in English, by the co-translator of the first Wellsweep book, Ruan Ji's _Songs of my Heart_. Burnett, David & Cayley, John trans: MIRROR AND POOL. Translations From the Chinese. London, 1992. 96 pp. 24 illustrations. 21x13 cm. Paper. *special price* (usually 6.95) GBP 5.00 (US$ 8.00) 'Mirror' (Cayley) and 'Pool' (Burnett) version of a number of famous Chinese poems, with further cross-art translations for many of them into torn-paper monochrome collages by Bronwyn Borrow. Huanzhulouzhu: BLADES FROM THE WILLOWS. A Chinese Novel of Fantasy and Martial Arts Adventure. London, 1991. 256 pp. 8 full-colour illustrations. 20x13 cm. Paper. *special price* (usually 7.95) GBP 5.00 (US$ 8.00) A wild, sword & sorcery literary progenitor of Hong Kong cinema. The *first* full-length translation from the genre into English! If you don't have it, get it *now* and subscribe to the sequel!! ========================================================== OFFER: INDRA'S NET BEFORE THE WEB A special sampler of work from Indra's Net by John Cayley For GBP 7.50 (US$ 12.00) I will send you a single *Apple Macintosh-only* 1.4Mb disk with the following works from Indra's Net: - wine flying - Collocations - Leaving the City - An Essay on the Golden Lion - The Speaking Clock - Pressing the Key more info at: The offer is *post free* and, if you order by email, I will send you the disk with and invoice as for the books above. An order of books and disk may be mixed. All cheques (checks) made payable to 'Wellsweep'. These are all HyperCard Stacks with mesostic and collocationals and hybrid text generators. In order to fit them on the disk, I must supply them as stacks only, so you will need to have your own copy of HyperCard or HyperCard Player to view them. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:56:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: simon@CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: syllabic stress/quadrosyllabics From: IPFW::SIMON 22-NOV-1997 10:23:02.12 To: MX%"daniel7@IDT.NET" CC: SIMON Subj: Re: quadrosyllabics Shifts of syntax would be word order, e.g. Biru ga Michiko ni camera o yatta (Bill Michiko camera gave) vs Bill gave Michiko a camera. Japanese syntax is Subject Object Verb vs English syntax which is Subject Verb Object Shifts in syllabic stress are phonological. best, beth simon ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:00:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: syllabic stress/quadrosyllabics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The bulk of the words were indeed Greek in origin -- and if I remember my Greek correctly, it is usual for four-syllable words in Greek to be accented on the antepenult (one of my favorite words) Annie Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) Department of English Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:59:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: Post Office Caveat Emptor Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" This info might help someone--would have helped me. I've been working on something with a deadline, bought a "Priority Mail" envelope & stamps for it, got to the central P.O. about five minutes after it closed, & so dropped the envelope into a big "Priority Mail" box outside. Fine. Next day I'm away, come back late, get my mail, & there's the "Priority Mail" envelope, address pasted over with a green tag saying that anything over 1 pound MUST be presented to a retail clerk at a post office "because of heightened security measures." Funny nobody mentioned that when I bought the thing. So I had to drive out through a bad snowstorm this morning to re-send it, two days later, and asked for an explanation. Do they have poem-sniffing dogs, or what exactly? And if they thought it was explosive, why did they risk the life of my rural route carrier to give it back to me? I mean, she's a very nice woman! Got a family! Explanation was that after the last TWA exploded the FAA required anything that might go on a plane to be personally received. Anything over one pound. So if you're gonna do it, do it in 15 ounces. Personally, I don't believe it--I think they've got poem-sniffing dogs. Have an iced-tea, Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:26:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas As a hoax I'm interested in the Yasusada debate. What does it mean that so many editors rushed to discover/print/promote this work? But I won't be one of the first to actually order the book. Sorry, I'm just not interested in the poems. And I wonder what the next project of our hoaxer might be: How it would go over publishing the 'lost' poems of a Holocaust victim? Or posing as a black Jazz musician with a herion habit? Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:50:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Or posing as a black Jazz musician with a herion habit? >Finnegan her ion, hab it? her/i ...on habit? habit? on her eye! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:29:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Carole Maso in San Francisco Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Small Press Traffic and Myung Mi Kim present Carole Maso an informal reading and conversation Sunday, November 30, 1:30 p.m. 777 Valencia Street Room 6 (This is the same building as the NC Theater. Instead of turning right for the theater, turn left towards the restroom, nearby which you will be diverted by the sound of Carole Maso's siren like voice leading you in and making you think all about desire and the inmost secrets of language and syntax . . .) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:08:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was sure hoping all the Yasusada crap had stopped, to much time on it, tired of hearing, if you want to discuss that crap go back door direct to those interested. No one has to buy the book, you can either do as Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin used to advocate, steal the damn thing, or do what I do when interested, but not enough to buy something...sit in a nice comfy chair at Barnes and Nobles or Borders, read to you hearts delite...satisfy both curiosity and social conscience. Meanwhile, the book and all the talk is just wearing...get a life. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 06:36:45 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry E. Fletcher wrote: > > I was sure hoping all the Yasusada crap had stopped, to much time on it, > tired of hearing, if you want to discuss that crap go back door direct to > those interested. No one has to buy the book, you can either do as Abbie > Hoffman and Jerry Rubin used to advocate, steal the damn thing, or do > what I do when interested, but not enough to buy something...sit in a > nice comfy chair at Barnes and Nobles or Borders, read to you hearts > delite...satisfy both curiosity and social conscience. Meanwhile, the > book and all the talk is just wearing...get a life. > > Jerry. <<<"And so farewell, dear Reader, from Descartes." --Dan Zimmerman>>> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 18:36:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jarnot@PIPELINE.COM Subject: readings at the poetry project Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable dear list people: here are some upcoming readings at the Poetry Project for those of you who will be in the New York area during December and January. The Poetry Project is located at 10th Street and 2nd Avenue in Manhattan. Readings begin at 8:00 pm. DECEMBER: 3 Wednesday Some of the Dharma A unique celebration of the first-time publication of Jack Kerouac's remarkable book, Some of the Dharma, featuring performances and readings by actors Willem Dafoe and Karen Allen; Lee Ranaldo from Sonic Youth, Rob Buck from 10,000 Maniacs and Danny Chauvin from Hitchhiker; Ed Sanders of the =46ugs, David Amram, Doug Brinkley, Ann Douglas, Maggie Estep, and many more= . 5 Friday Gillian McCain & Jeffery Conway Gillian McCain is the author of Tilt, recently published by The =46igures/Hard Press, and the co-author (with Legs McNeil) of Please Kill Me= : the Uncensored History of Punk (Grove Press). Her work has appeared on the CD Getchertiktz (SOOJ Records), a spoken word album with Ric Ocasek and Alan Vega, as well as in Lingo, Arshile, The World, and B City. She is a former Program Coordinator of the Poetry Project and the former editor of The Poetry Project Newsletter. Jeffery Conway is the author of Blood Poisoning (Cold Calm Press 1995). His work has appeared in Plush, Eros in Boystown, Queer Dog, and the current issue of The World. [10:30 pm] 8 Monday Elliott Sharp & Eddie Bell Composer, multi-instrumentalist, and founder of ZOaR records, Elliott Sharp leads the groups Carbon & Orchestra Carbon, Tectonics, and Terraplane. His most recent CD releases include the Carbon album, Interference, Revenge of the Stuttering Child with Israeli poet Ronny Someck, and the Tectonics CD, =46ield & Stream. Eddie Bell, an educator and poet, completed his first book-length poetry manuscript, Capt's Dreaming Chair, during two fellowships he was awarded by the Ragdale Foundation, an artists and writers' retreat. 10 Wednesday Thomas Sayers Ellis & Bei Dao Thomas Sayers Ellis is a co-founding member of the Dark Room Collective and the author of The Good Junk which appeared in the AGNI/Graywolf annual Take Three. His poems have appeared most recently in Grand Street, AGNI, Calloloo, Best American Poetry 1997, and The Garden Thieves: Twentieth Century African-American Poetry. He is also the author of View-Master, a forthcoming chapbook from Vimal Press. He currently teaches in the English Department at Case Western Reserve University. Recently elected an honorary member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters, Bei Dao is one of the foremost poets from China. A former Red Guard, he now lives in exile in the United States. Translated into English are four books of poetry (most recently, Landscape Over Zero, New Directions) and a book of short stories, Waves. 12 Friday Janet Hamill & Lo Galluccio Janet Hamill, co-author with Patti Smith of the forthcoming The Eternal Caf=E9, will be presenting new work accompanied by bass and rhythm guitar. Hamill is also the author of Nostalgia of the Infinite, The Temple, and Troublante, and has been included in several anthologies, including Living with the Animals, More Reflections on the Meaning of Life, and The Unmade Bed: Sensual Writing on Married Love. Lo Galluccio, a poet and singer, has recently put out her first CD, Being Visited, with musicians Miki Navazio, Brad Jones, and Michael Evans. Galluccio started performing in FishPistol and evolved Being Visited at cbgb's gallery, The Knitting Factory, and the Nuyorican Poet's Caf=E9. [10:30 pm] 15 Monday Malika Lee Whitney & Josefina Baez Actress, writer, and storyteller Malika Lee Whitney is the artistic director of Pickney Productions and the Pickney Players. She is also the author of Bob Marley: Reggae King of the World. Josefina Baez is the founder and director of Latinarte, an intercultural art troupe. She is currently working on a children's book, Why Is My Name Marisol?, a book of poetry-prose, In Dominicanish, and poetry-prose in Spanish, Telele, Telele, Telele-Blah, Blah, Blah. 17 Wednesday Tom Carey & Tomas Salamun Tom Carey's most recent book, Desire, was recently published by Painted Leaf Press. He has lived in New York City since 1977. In 1988 he became a =46ranciscan brother in the Society of St. Francis. He currently lives and works in Brooklyn, New York. Slovenian poet Tomaz Salamun was born on the 4th of July in Zagreb, Croatia. In the 1970s, Salamun was invited to the Iowa International Workshop, where he met Anselm Hollo, Ted Berrigan, Barrett Watten, and others. One of the foremost poets of Slovenia, he has published 27 books of poetry, including The Selected Poems (Ecco, 1988), and most recently, The Four Questions of Melancholy. He is currently the cultural attace at the Slovenian Consulate in New York. 22 Monday Poetica and Bob Quatrone Inspired by the Paul Winter Consort and Coleman Barks reciting the poems of Rumi, Robert Fox and Steven Wright created Poetica, which will perform both known and new poetry in an original blend of words and music. Bob Quatrone is the former chief lecturer and program director of the Walt Whitman Poetry of NYC, and the former editor of Lunch. JANUARY 1 24th Annual New Year's Day Marathon Reading =46eaturing over 120 poets, performers, dancers, musicians, and artists, including Richard Hell, Tuli Kupferberg, Penny Arcade, Homer Erotic, Vole, and many more! [2 pm-1 am, $15, $12 for Poetry Project Members] 5 Monday Open Reading, sign-up at 7:30 pm.[8 pm] 7 Wednesday Juliana Spahr & Harryette Mullen Juliana Spahr's most recent book, Response, is available from Sun and Moon Press. She co-edits the journal Chain with Jena Osman and currently teaches at the University of Hawaii, Manoa. Harryette Mullen currently teaches Creative Writing and African-American Literature at UCLA. She is the author of trimmings, Muse & Drudge,and S*PeRM**K*T. 12 Monday Elizabeth Alexander & Shirley LeFlore Elizabeth Alexander is the author of 2 books of poetry, The Venus Hottentot, and Body of Life. Her verse-play, Diva Studies, was produced at the Yale School of Drama in 1996. She is currently working on a third book of poetry, and a book of essays, On Black Masculinity. Shirley LeFlore is a poet, professor, and vocalinquist. Her works-in-progress include a CD, The Bet, forthcoming from MapleShade; a book, The Collection Plate; and a collection of autobiographical stories and poems, Threads. Her collaborations with saxophonist J.D. Parran are on the recent CD Spiritstage. 14 Wednesday Ammiel Alcalay & TBA Ammiel Alcalay is a poet, translator, and scholar who teaches classical and Oriental literatures at Queens College and tat the CUNY Graduate Center. He is the author of the cairo notebooks, After Jews and Arabs, and Keys to the Garden. He has translated poetry and articles written in Bosnia, including The Tenth Circle of Hell, an account of a survivor of a Serbian camp. 16 Friday Lauren Spencer & Sharon Mesmer Lauren Spencer is currently working on a series of books profiling bands on the road and in the studio with MTV/Simon and Schuster: the first installment on Bush is due in stores in 1998.She is a regular contributor to Rolling Stone and Jane magazines. Sharon Mesmer's first collection of poems Half Angel, Half Lunch, described by Allen Ginsberg as "beautifully bold and vivaciously modern," will be published by Hard Press in 1998. =46ormerly of the band Mellow Freakin' Woodies, and fresh from performing he= r work in Japan, she now teaches at the New School for Social Research. [10:30 pm] 19 Monday Babalorisa John Mason & Raymond Patterson Babalorisa John Mason is a Yoruba priest, African and jazz percussionist, and noted scholar and theologian whose books include Orin Orisa: Songs for Selected Heads and, co-authored with Professor Henry Drew, the forthcoming catalogue for the exhibition, Beads, Body and Soul: Luminous Art in the Yoruba Universe. Raymond Patterson is the author of 26 Ways of Looking at a Black Man and Elemental Blues. He is the writer of opera librettos, former member of the Umbra Poetry Workshop, and has been anthologized in numerous collections, including the seminal New Black Voices, edited by Addison Gayle. 21 Wednesday Nina Zivancevic & Ben Friedlander Nina Zivancevic was born in Belgrade, former Yugoslavia-a literary critic, journalist , translator as well as a poet and a fiction writer-she lived for several decades in New York where she wrote in English, and now resides in Paris where she is currently working on her PhD on Modern literature. Her most recent book Inside and Out of Byzantium was published by SEMIOTEXT(E), and her first novel Living on Air is to come out by Cool Grove Inc. in New York this coming spring. Ben Friedlander's most recent publication, A Knot is Not a Tangle, is available from Meow Press. He is the co-editor, with Don Allen, of Charles Olson's Collected Prose. =46riedlander currently lives in Buffalo, New York where he is a graduate student at the State University of New York. 23 Friday Chris Kraus & Ann Rower Chris Kraus's novel I Love Dick has just been published by Semiotext(e) Native Agents. She wrote and directed the feature film, Gravity and Grace (Lonely Girl Films 1995) and produced The Chance Event, a three-day philosophy rave with Jean Baudrillard and Roseanne Stone at Whiskey Pete's Casino in the Nevada Desert. Ann Rower, a former Wooster Group writer, is the author of Armed Response (Serpent's Tail, 1995) and If You're a Girl (Semiotext(e) Native Agents). [10:30 pm] 26 Monday Reading and Book Party for Patricia Landrum Patricia Landrum was an early member of the Stoop Poetry Workshop, formerly on the Board of Directors at the Poetry Project, and part of the Nuyorican Poet's Caf=E9. She was also a founding member of the women's poetry theater collaboration, Cayenne. and author of the chapbook, Sweet (New Spirit). In honor of her, and of the publication of the manuscript-Mary and Other Ordinary Women-that she was preparing at the time of her death, Tracie Morris, Sheila Alson, Cheryl Boyce Taylor, and others will read, talk, and perform. 28 Wednesday Miles Champion & Keith Waldrop Miles Champion was born in Nottingham, England, in 1968, and now lives in London. He is the writer of Sore Models and Compositional Bonbons Placate. Recent work has appeared in BOO, The Germ, and in the mini-anthology Sleight of Foot (Reality Street Editions). Keith Waldrop teaches at Brown University and, with Rosmarie Waldrop, is editor of the small press, Burning Deck. Recent books include The Silhouette of the Bridge (Avec) and Light While There Is Light (Sun and Moon). He has translated, among others, Anne-Marie Albiach, Claude Royet-Journoud, Paol Keineg, Dominique =46ourcade, and Jean Grosjean. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:52:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: quadrosyllabics In-Reply-To: <3476655F.6F6A@idt.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Blyth's Zen in English & world Literature is worth hunting down as well... like Saintsbury maybe more energetically articulate (=enthusiastic?) than sensible, but who said sensibility was all that important anyway. Jordan On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Thanks, David. > Eons ago, in graduate school, I took a course in Japanese morphology > which explored, in a language I knew [& still know, sadly] little of, > the shifts of syntax specifying the differences between [in English, > say] PHOtograph, phoTOGraphy, and photoGRAPHic. Not a bit tangential to > my own sense of each word as at least a ratchet set. [All that so I > could read the transliterations in Blythe's four volume _Haiku_ > properly!] Gotta dig the beat! > > Daniel Zimmerman > > David R. Israel wrote: > > > > Poetas, > > > > hazarding outre tangentiality, here's forwarding a post of mine from > > the SoAsian Literature listserv -- with my runaway exploration of > > quadrosyllabics [or is that quatro-?] in English. > > > > cheers, > > d.i. > > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: David R. Israel > > To: SASIALIT@LISTSERV.RICE.EDU > > Subject: 2nd syllable stress > > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:22:04 -0400 > > > > [ was, Re: regarding farsi ] > > > > Moazzam, > > > > thanks for the excerpt from Manto's letter to Nehru -- this is the 1st > > of read of this much-mentioned Manto, and he seems witty & likeable. > > > > / / / / / > > > > Hope you'll pardon me if I pedantically quibble over one small point > > of English. Your point was quite good, and yet the illustration was > > poss. inaccurate in one particular. You wrote -- > > > > >. . . When a word travels, it is vulnerable to > > > the new environment. Everyone, or a vast majority at least, in the > > > Subcontinent pronounce 'photo graphy', as with two equal stresses, > > > not realizing that English is a stress language, and a 'native', and > > > I understand I am here as vulnerable as any word, of English will > > > pronounce 'ph[]tography' putting the stress on the first syllable. > > > > Did you really mean the *first* syllable -- i.e., PHOto-graphy? > > > > There are many differences in stress between British pronunciation and > > American. Here are a few common examples (using capitalized syllables > > to denote the syllable wherein occurs the stress): > > > > American British > > ___________________________ > > > > garAGE GARage > > LABoratory laBORatory > > WEEKend weekEND > > > > As a "native American speaker" (not to say an Amerindian), I can tell > > you (with a sense of conviction) that photography, in the U.s., is > > properly pronounced with stress on the 2nd (not 1st) syllable -- i.e., > > > > phoTOGraphy > > > > In this, the word follows the same (2nd-syllable-stress) pattern as is > > to be seen in similar (4-syllable) words (many of which are, likewise, > > ideational nouns). There are quite a number of examples. Allow me to > > present a concatenation of such: > > > > biOGraphy / geOGraphy / porNOGraphy / > > ePIphany / anTIthesis / philOLogy / > > > > onTOLogy / onTOGeny / phyLOGeny / > > onCOLogy / zoOLogy / asTROLogy / > > > > exOGgenous / homOLogous / hoMOGinized / > > biOGraphist / phoTOGraphist / anTHOLogized / > > > > asTRONomy / lobBOTomy / eCONomy / > > exCEEDingly / perNICiously / apPALlingly / > > > > enTIrely / reDICulous / psyCHOLogy / > > aPOLogy / cosMOLogy / anTHOLogy / > > > > desPARingly / peDANtically / comMODious / > > ofFICiously / deLICiously / melLODious / > > > > apPARantly / enVItronment / suPERlative / > > unCERtainty / enVIDeous / comPARative > > > > sufFICiency / efFICiency / proDIGiously / > > prePOSterous / hyPOTHesis / reLIGiously / > > > > liTIGinous / phiLOsophy / reLIGionist / > > acQUIsitive / deRIVitive / reVISionist / > > > > acCOUtrement / reQUIRement / aMAZingly / > > asTONishing / adMONishing / outRAGeously / > > > > acCORDingly / afFORDable / supPOSedly / > > adDORingly / aDORable / imPOSingly / > > > > EmPEDocles / PyTHAGoras / HerODdotus / > > TheuSIDdites [sp?] / EuRIPpides / phoTOGraphous [a neolgism] > > > > and the like. > > > > [the penultimate 5 words are, of course, Greek names -- but they > > follow quite the same pattern (prosody), and I suspect that they may > > well hint at the origin of this stress pattern in English] > > > > / / / / / > > > > Now, I suppose it's poss. that Britishers may say PHOtography -- they > > do get a lot of things mixed up like that! ;-) -- but I did think > > (till seeing your post) that they had *this* one right -- er, I mean, > > the same as is heard in the American form, which latter is, as said, > > -- (at least throughout my short lifespan it has been) -- > > > > phoTOGraphy > > > > (believe it or not . . ) > > 'nuff said? > > > > cordially yours, > > d.i. > > > > p.s.: to wax aphoristic: > > > > phoTOGraphy is to biOGraphy > > as is word to thought . . . . > > > > p.p.s.: I dearly hope this runaway tangent of a post [note stress in > > tanGENtially] may hap to inspire some resident SAsian writer, & > > thereby beLATedly justify my reCALcitrant [ditto] . . . [etc.] . . . > > . > > ..... > > ............ > > \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > > > david raphael israel < > > >> washington d.c. << > > | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) > > | disrael@skgf.com (office) > > ========================= > > | thy centuries follow each other > > | perfecting a small wild flower > > | (Tagore) > > //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:29:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: James Finnegan Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas Jerry, Sorry all the Yasusada yapping was interfering with the brilliant thread you initiated--suddenly I forgot what it was? Finnegan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:50:26 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Finnegan, I go to your wake. Brilliant thread? With noise about nothing, a need to listen, and hearing only buzz, my needle cannot sew. I've weft and weave come unraveled. Steal the book, get a life. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:37:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client mothost.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: Re: readings at the poetry project In-Reply-To: jarnot@PIPELINE.COM "readings at the poetry project" (Nov 23, 6:36pm) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >DECEMBER: >3 Wednesday >Some of the Dharma >A unique celebration of the first-time publication of Jack Kerouac's >remarkable book, Some of the Dharma, featuring performances and readings by >actors Willem Dafoe and ... Should be interesting with Willem Dafoe reading. Remember his cameo appearance in "Basquiat" as the electrician/painter (or sculptor) delivering the line, "I'm glad I haven't received any recognition yet, it's given me more time to develop." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:57:16 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Re: Yasusada in Texas In-Reply-To: <3479B052.3992@ibm.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Jerry E. Fletcher writes: > I go to your wake. Brilliant thread? With noise about nothing, a need > to listen, and hearing only buzz, my needle cannot sew. I've weft and > weave come unraveled. Steal the book, get a life. what kind of authoritarian crap is this? best, Chris .. Christopher Alexander calexand@library.utah.edu Marriott Library Instruction 581-8323 (lv. msg.) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:41:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: ( Received on motgate.mot.com from client pobox.mot.com, sender burmeist@plhp002.comm.mot.com ) From: William Burmeister Prod Subject: FlashPoint URL In-Reply-To: William Burmeister Prod "Re: readings at the poetry project" (Nov 24, 10:37am) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anyone out there know the URL for FlashPoint? Thanks, William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:27:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Hubble's influence Hubble is kind of a figure that stands. Getting mad at him doesn't help. Thru his red shifting, the big bag was able to roll (unlike a man). He also started the idea of measuring how far stuff was away. How fast stuff was moving away. How basically nothing was moving toward (no blues). a thing i have always found suspect in the red shift theorizing is that you have to postulate a basic uniform thing from here to there. and from here to another there. and from here to another there, etc. and you build up all these theres and say the universe is about this old and this big. so the question i like is what if one particular galaxy (these are typically the things that are being measured) was really nearby, but for reasons of non-uniformity of space (due say to huge gravity fluxors) it appeared massively red shifted, and so the linear thing to say would be to say it was the farthest thing away and was moving away from us x fast and is really really old. (quasars pose problems like this). below are two entries in a dictionary of physics on the web. they just happened to be back to back. and i haven't fooled with them tony. uniformity principle (E.P. Hubble): The principle that the laws of physics here and now are not different, at least qualitatively, from the laws of physics in previous or future epochs of time, or elsewhere in the Universe. This principle was scoffed at by the ancients who believed that the laws that governed the Earth and those that governed the heavens were completely divorced; now it is used routinely in cosmology to describe the structure and evolution of the Universe. universal age paradox: Two of the most straightforward methods of calculating the age of the Universe -- through redshift measurements, and through stellar evolution -- yield incompatible results. Recent (mid 1990s) measurements of the distances of distant galaxies through the use of the Hubble Space Telescope indicate an age much less than the ages of the oldest stars that we calculate through stellar evolution theory. At present there is no conclusion to this paradox; a cosmological constant would rectify the situation, but it's possible that the discrepancy will disappear with more accurate measurements of the age of the Universe using both methods. ............. If you like physics, math, etc dictionaries, there's a good one by a guy named eric (his treasure trove). http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/physics/physics.html can anyone look up a good definition of quantum mechanical tunnelling and post it? the eric dictionary entry is under construction. Bill L ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:47:03 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: David Ignatow (1914-1997) I've been spending some time this past week thinking about my friend David Ignatow. When Charles sent out word about David's death, I began thumbing through David's most recent book of poems, _I Have a Name_, published by when David was 82. A couple of poems: As If The prayerful humanity of Bach, the soldier machinegunning-- I don't know how to reconcile one with the other and to the living, where with others I walk, stunned. In a cafe music is pouring itself in joy for itself for anyone to dream of reconciliation with conflicted life. Farther down the road an energetic man is beating his wife. How to live in confusion and as a skeptic, angry to have been born to music and to screams intermingling, as if--not one without the other-- to make a whole of it. * For Rose 1913-1995 I have a name a substitute for the word infinity. When my name is called it is not me you are calling. * David's poetry and friendship meant a great deal to me. He wrote a very generous blurb for my first book, _Doublespace_. He was an energetic correspondent, and he continued to read, think, and argue. Early on in our friendship, he steered me to George Oppen's poetry. I have written about David's poetry, and I remain drawn to its odd syntax, a kind of quirky yiddishness, an odd mixture of modesty and passion. * David Ignatow 1914-1997 there would be then this way of erasure as you had studiously entered into that space of your disappearance intimate with its parameters savoring particularities of its persistent integrity there you are in dialog with each imagined shadow and every other poet a kingdom the cir cumference of your many singular friendships ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:03:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: FlashPoint URL -Reply Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yessir! The URL for FlashPoint is http://webdelsol.com/FLASHPOINT/ -- JR Foley, On-line Editor, FlashPoint >>> William Burmeister Prod 11/24/97 03:41pm >>> Does anyone out there know the URL for FlashPoint? Thanks, William Burmeister ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:02:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Ann Petry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I just now learned that novelist Ann Petry died last Spring. The news was on the same page as a piece about Pound that a friend mailed me from the Washigton Post. Has anyone spotted any other news coverage of Petry? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:36:20 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: Hubble's influence In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:27:40 -0500 from yes, interest multiplies - but what if the red shift is actually a blue shift? I mean, if you're not the only purple on the beach (i.e. within a coney island radius). MillenniuM starts with M, ends with M, and has 2 Ns trying to be a 3rd M in the middle. what does this tell you about the donut shape of spacetime? I mean, what if the purple shift is right here, diaphanous, in the bree E ze? & we can't even see it? And the calcified driftwood (or Xxzv...w*klphtok in Assyrian) is a leftover from LAST week's recycling? - Eric Blarnes, somewhere in Madras p.s. M = 1,000 in Latin. telescoped to the nth. sort of a hubble-dub-dubble. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:07:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brent Long Subject: Re: Hubble's influence In-Reply-To: <971124162740_748746989@mrin43.mail.aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Excuse my asking, and it may be in ignorance, but what the hell does this have to do with Poetics??? At 04:27 PM 11/24/97 -0500, you wrote: >Hubble is kind of a figure that stands. Getting mad at him doesn't help. > Thru his red shifting, the big bag was able to roll (unlike a man). He also >started the idea of measuring how far stuff was away. How fast stuff was >moving away. How basically nothing was moving toward (no blues). > >a thing i have always found suspect in the red shift theorizing is that you >have to postulate a basic uniform thing from here to there. and from here to >another there. and from here to another there, etc. and you build up all >these theres and say the universe is about this old and this big. so the >question i like is what if one particular galaxy (these are typically the >things that are being measured) was really nearby, but for reasons of >non-uniformity of space (due say to huge gravity fluxors) it appeared >massively red shifted, and so the linear thing to say would be to say it was >the farthest thing away and was moving away from us x fast and is really >really old. (quasars pose problems like this). > >below are two entries in a dictionary of physics on the web. they just >happened to be back to back. and i haven't fooled with them tony. > > >uniformity principle (E.P. Hubble): > >The principle that the laws of physics here and now are not different, at >least qualitatively, from the laws of physics in previous or future epochs of >time, or elsewhere in the Universe. This principle was scoffed at by the >ancients who believed that the laws that governed the Earth and those that >governed the heavens were completely divorced; now it is used routinely in >cosmology to describe the structure and evolution of the Universe. > >universal age paradox: > >Two of the most straightforward methods of calculating the age of the >Universe -- through redshift measurements, and through stellar evolution -- >yield incompatible results. Recent (mid 1990s) measurements of the distances >of distant galaxies through the use of the Hubble Space Telescope indicate an >age much less than the ages of the oldest stars that we calculate through >stellar evolution theory. At present there is no conclusion to this paradox; >a cosmological constant would rectify the situation, but it's possible that >the discrepancy will disappear with more accurate measurements of the age of >the Universe using both methods. >............. > >If you like physics, math, etc dictionaries, there's a good one by a guy >named eric (his treasure trove). > >http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/physics/physics.html > >can anyone look up a good definition of quantum mechanical tunnelling and >post it? the eric dictionary entry is under construction. > >Bill L > > Curious the small and lesser fates which join to lead a man to this. - Cormac McArthy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:31:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Ann Petry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aldon, I knew she died but I haven't seen news coverage of it. (I learned because I'm teaching The Street next Spring). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ There is no mantle and it does not descend. -- Thomas Kinsella -----Original Message----- From: Aldon Nielsen To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 7:13 PM Subject: Ann Petry >I just now learned that novelist Ann Petry died last Spring. The news was >on the same page as a piece about Pound that a friend mailed me from the >Washigton Post. Has anyone spotted any other news coverage of Petry? > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:58:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: Hubble's influence In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19971124190746.006a421c@postoffice.brown.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII First guess, Brent, is that Bill posted something intended for Subpoetics to Poetics. Subpoetics is the allegorical version of Poetics. Second guess is that Bill (have you seen Bill's poems? I'd send you off to SPD to order _My Trip to New York City_ but I'm pretty sure they're out of it), who has an avid interest in astronomy, has long thought about astrophysics and poetry with the same part of his brain, and is proposing that there is some connection between the difficulty of measuring the size of the universe and the difficulty of understanding whether poetics is the discussion of what happens in poems or is it just where any individual stands (that is, their status) in poetry. Now we know from Mark Wallace that there aren't really any individuals, and I know from talking to Bill that when he's being allegorical he's also really just talking about the things that excite him, it being his (and Ange Mlinko's and practically any other poet worth talking about's) poetics to pay attention to what is exciting. At this point I will direct you back to the Poetics Archives where you may read Bill's translations of Sappho, his notes on power wires, and miscellaneous found poetry regarding the global branding of Tiger Woods, and birds (I think). Getting mad at him doesn't help. All best, Jordan On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Brent Long wrote: > Excuse my asking, and it may be in ignorance, but what the hell does this > have to do with Poetics??? > > > At 04:27 PM 11/24/97 -0500, Billy Luoma wrote: > >Hubble is kind of a figure that stands. Getting mad at him doesn't help. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:40:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: David Ignatow (1914-1997) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hank, Many thanks for sharing David Ignatow's work and your comments about how he influenced your work and life. The Ignatow work you shared I am not familiar with and will seek out. Thanks, Jerry Fletcher ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:34:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Hubble's influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brent, It appears that one may be able to use the subject matter for a poem. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:00:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dean Taciuch Subject: Re: Hubble's influence In-Reply-To: <347A5548.4286@ibm.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Brent, > >It appears that one may be able to use the subject matter for a poem. > >Jerry. Subject matter? Anything can be subject matter for a poem. It's what you do with it, as WCW would say. Use the concepts. A garden isn't just dirt and some pretty green stuff. . .a question of the size of one's world isn't just subject matter--it's a formal question in the most basic way. If it were a question merely of subject matter, we'd be talking about science fiction. We're not. (are we?) Dean ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:08:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Hubble's influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dean, I apologize for upsetting you further...now that you mention it, maybe a science fiction poetics group or as was suggested by another, this is poetry. We may not be advanced enough to see it as such. There IS a lot out there parading around as poetry that is not. Please take this in stride...we'll wade through the manure soon enough, only to get stuck in another pile. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:33:49 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Hubble's influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, if you write a haiku, for example, & it takes more than about a heartbeat for it to register, you've got a little too much thought in there, a brow-wrinkle driving the poem apart--a [dead than]redshift. On the other hand, if your haiku stays within the "pulsation of an artery," as Blake puts it, you've got a Rinzai-whack--a [black &]blueshift. Cf. fission vs. fusion, or, chiasmically [& perhaps cosmetically vs. cosmically], fashion vs. frisson. Everything, rightly conceived, has to do with poetics [cf. Bachelard's _The Poetics of Space_, Pound's economics, that (who wrote that?) poem based on the Fibonacci sequence]. Dan Zimmerman Brent Long wrote: > > Excuse my asking, and it may be in ignorance, but what the hell does this > have to do with Poetics??? > > At 04:27 PM 11/24/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Hubble is kind of a figure that stands. Getting mad at him doesn't help. > > Thru his red shifting, the big bag was able to roll (unlike a man). He also > >started the idea of measuring how far stuff was away. How fast stuff was > >moving away. How basically nothing was moving toward (no blues). > > > >a thing i have always found suspect in the red shift theorizing is that you > >have to postulate a basic uniform thing from here to there. and from here to > >another there. and from here to another there, etc. and you build up all > >these theres and say the universe is about this old and this big. so the > >question i like is what if one particular galaxy (these are typically the > >things that are being measured) was really nearby, but for reasons of > >non-uniformity of space (due say to huge gravity fluxors) it appeared > >massively red shifted, and so the linear thing to say would be to say it was > >the farthest thing away and was moving away from us x fast and is really > >really old. (quasars pose problems like this). > > > >below are two entries in a dictionary of physics on the web. they just > >happened to be back to back. and i haven't fooled with them tony. > > > > > >uniformity principle (E.P. Hubble): > > > >The principle that the laws of physics here and now are not different, at > >least qualitatively, from the laws of physics in previous or future epochs of > >time, or elsewhere in the Universe. This principle was scoffed at by the > >ancients who believed that the laws that governed the Earth and those that > >governed the heavens were completely divorced; now it is used routinely in > >cosmology to describe the structure and evolution of the Universe. > > > >universal age paradox: > > > >Two of the most straightforward methods of calculating the age of the > >Universe -- through redshift measurements, and through stellar evolution -- > >yield incompatible results. Recent (mid 1990s) measurements of the distances > >of distant galaxies through the use of the Hubble Space Telescope indicate an > >age much less than the ages of the oldest stars that we calculate through > >stellar evolution theory. At present there is no conclusion to this paradox; > >a cosmological constant would rectify the situation, but it's possible that > >the discrepancy will disappear with more accurate measurements of the age of > >the Universe using both methods. > >............. > > > >If you like physics, math, etc dictionaries, there's a good one by a guy > >named eric (his treasure trove). > > > >http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~eww6n/physics/physics.html > > > >can anyone look up a good definition of quantum mechanical tunnelling and > >post it? the eric dictionary entry is under construction. > > > >Bill L > > > > > > Curious the small and lesser fates which join to lead a man to this. > - Cormac McArthy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:06:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: who wrote that Fibonacci poem Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dan Zimmerman : Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:14:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: readings at the poetry project MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT from William Burmeister Prod: > >DECEMBER: > > >3 Wednesday > >Some of the Dharma > >A unique celebration of the first-time publication of Jack > >Kerouac's remarkable book, Some of the Dharma, featuring > >performances and readings by actors Willem Dafoe and ... > > Should be interesting with Willem Dafoe reading. Remember his cameo > appearance in "Basquiat" . . . some might also recall his recent appearance in *Seven Years in Tibet* (where he's -- ultimately -- an acolyte of the Dalai Lama) d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:20:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: oops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT [ was, Re: readings at the poetry project ] Regarding Willem Defoe, I senselessly wrote -- > some might also recall his recent appearance in *Seven Years in > Tibet* (where he's -- ultimately -- an acolyte of the Dalai Lama) well, I guess I was thinking of Brad Pitt; pardon moi. Wasn't Defoe a longtime member of that astonishing multimedia troupe that performs at The Garage (or is it The Gas Station)? (^ the name of which theatre group escapes my mind, poss. for similar reasons as my confounding Pitt for Defoe -- or maybe I've just been away from NYC too long . . . ) anway, sounds like a fun reading ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:27:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: borsht of longing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joseph Tapp? I think "aesthetics" and literacy can be thought together, broadly speaking, through the notion of "the difficult," through "difficulty," modernist terms that can be resuscitated without their high-cultural presumptive address, and located, rather, in a reading body scanning social registers, some legible, others not (for differing reasons). Peanut shells quilted to the imaginary pink shift, Louis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:24:20 -0800 Reply-To: Layne Russell Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Layne Russell Organization: Socopoets, Russian River Writers Guild Subject: Re: Hubble's influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Well, if you write a haiku, for example, & it takes more than about a > heartbeat for it to register, you've got a little too much thought in > there speaking of haiku, here is one for breakfast or coffee/tea break.... little white truck rounds the silver street no mail again layne ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 05:56:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hubble's influence jordan is amusing. i probably posted that to make him laugh. but also i wanted a definition of tunnelling (no one has a mcgraw-hill physics dict handy? i'm embarrassed not to have one. ) and i'm too chicken to post something on an astrophysics listserve. anyway or furthermore, i just thought creation myths were part of the job description. i mean even one of the definitions i quoted alludes to this (say pre-socratic or substitute any similar tendency): "This principle was scoffed at by the ancients who believed that the laws that governed the Earth and those that governed the heavens were completely divorced." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 05:56:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Ignatow & Objectivism Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hank, Thanks for your post on Ignatow. I read him closely throughout the 1960s, far more sporadically after that. I was intrigued to see that he had suggested Oppen to you. I've always read both him and Harvey Shapiro (the former NYTBR editor) as two poets who showed the Williams influence very clearly, but in a way that demonstrated what growing up as a poet during the period when the Objectivists were silent and out of print would lead to -- decidedly on the far side of the New American poetry and generally antithetical to everything that has spun out from that. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:06:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: D. Ignatow A poem by David Ignatow, from _A Glass of Green Tea - With Honig_: THE POET for Edwin What does he want of himself? How to write without reservation, yet without repugnance, so that to value writing, teeth, tongue and terror - he will accept the terror. [when you look at the repetitions of sounds around the "t" of "poet" and "write" - w, r, t - this little praise poem takes on something elegant] ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:49:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Subject: Re: Hubble's influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCF97F.0CAF2920" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF97F.0CAF2920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Tunnelling: Moving through immense quantities of A. Dirt (i.e. escaping = from jail, or from New York City) B. Space (i.e. flying from New York = City to Hawai'i) or C. Talk (resurfacing again in the strangest places, = i.e. a poetics list). Hey Bill, good to hear from you even if it is = thrice removed! ---------- From: Maz881@AOL.COM Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 5:56 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Hubble's influence jordan is amusing. i probably posted that to make him laugh. but also = i wanted a definition of tunnelling (no one has a mcgraw-hill physics dict handy? i'm embarrassed not to have one. ) and i'm too chicken to post something on an astrophysics listserve. anyway or furthermore, i just thought creation myths were part of the job description. i mean even = one of the definitions i quoted alludes to this (say pre-socratic or substitute = any similar tendency): "This principle was scoffed at by the ancients who believed that the laws that governed the Earth and those that governed = the heavens were completely divorced." ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF97F.0CAF2920 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiANAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAVAEAAAEAAAAMAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAAWwAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAFVCIFBvZXRpY3MgZGlz Y3Vzc2lvbiBncm91cABTTVRQAFBPRVRJQ1NATElTVFNFUlYuQUNTVS5CVUZGQUxPLkVEVQAAHgAC MAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAACIAAABQT0VUSUNTQExJU1RTRVJWLkFDU1UuQlVGRkFM Ty5FRFUAAAADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAeAAAAJ1VCIFBvZXRpY3MgZGlzY3Vzc2lv biBncm91cCcAAAACAQswAQAAACcAAABTTVRQOlBPRVRJQ1NATElTVFNFUlYuQUNTVS5CVUZGQUxP LkVEVQAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAAIB9g8BAAAABAAAAAAAAALMQAEEgAEAFwAAAFJFOiBIdWJi bGUncyBpbmZsdWVuY2UAtgcBBYADAA4AAADNBwsAGQAIADEAGwACAE4BASCAAwAOAAAAzQcLABkA CAAvACMAAgBUAQEJgAEAIQAAAEFBNUNFMERCQTdGOUJDMTFBMTZDMjJFMkExQjc2OTQ2AF0HAQOQ BgDwBQAAFAAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMALgAAAAAAAwA2AAAAAABAADkAwKNI 8qj5vAEeAHAAAQAAABcAAABSRTogSHViYmxlJ3MgaW5mbHVlbmNlAAACAXEAAQAAABYAAAABvPmo 8j8wrN0BZXER0ZUE4peEzRkjAAAeAB4MAQAAAAUAAABTTVRQAAAAAB4AHwwBAAAAFAAAAG1kdXJh bmRAc3ByeW5ldC5jb20AAwAGEF+0VicDAAcQXQMAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFRVTk5FTExJTkc6TU9W SU5HVEhST1VHSElNTUVOU0VRVUFOVElUSUVTT0ZBRElSVChJRUVTQ0FQSU5HRlJPTUpBSUwsT1JG Uk9NTkVXWU9SS0NJVFkpQlNQQUNFKElFRkxZSU4AAAAAAgEJEAEAAABlBAAAYQQAAM0GAABMWkZ1 cQUMMf8ACgEPAhUCpAPkBesCgwBQEwNUAgBjaArAc2V07jIGAAbDAoMyA8YHEwKDujMTDX0KgAjP Cdk7Ff94MjU1AoAKgQ2xC2Bu8GcxMDMUIAsKEvIMAQJjAEAgVHVubmUkbGwLgGc6BdBvdhEbUSB0 aANgdWdoDiAHcAeAAIBlIHF1mQBwdGkdUAeRb2YTcBAuIERpACAgKGmMLmUeAAeQY2FwG9LJA1Ig agtwbCwdsAXAix9jB8JZBbBrIEMdYFB5KSBCHgBTCrBjdxzwHnQY0HkfJyCbHABvkCBIYXcLcCdp IWC1BbFDHgBUB0AhACgWAJpzCHBmANAb0mFnC3GPHIADoBwQHPBzdHIY8W8HkAVAC1Eh4HMf8B6D YeUnsG8SAGljBCAbQCcg1ikeACQwZSPwQgMQH+F8Z28EcCQCJvAKwR9jefsIYB7AdgnwHIAd0B1g HIB/BCAcESjwHPAWAARgK8BkjiEKhQqLG0AxODAC0eBpLTE0NA3wDNAvY9kLWTE2CqADYHQFkAVA vi0xhwqHMDsMMDEGRgNhHxuAMB8xJAyCBdBhejgAODFAQU9MLkP8T00yLzM9BmACMDRvNXujGuAH kGRheR/wTi0xGwbQBJAgGDAf8DE5OcA3IDU6NTYTcDcfGTMuVG85bzV7UE9FAFRJQ1NATElTgFRT RVJWLkFBsABVLkJVRkZBTGBPLkVEVT1vOD51nGJqMUE/jzV7UmUbgOZIRYACYGUnBCALgBjQnQpQ biHgLY8ukzM2MAf3FCIMATEGagWwO4AmkQQguGFtdQCQGQApgWknsP0DYGIBoCKAKKEnIAmAHAGu YQVAJBEAwGsc8GgHcM0pIGEcUSmBYnUFQAdA+nMkIGkKhSRgAjBOUSiQ3w2xC4AdYQIgHbJ0Gvce YG5uJCACIE8xYUyhTvBjOwnAJFAtT1AbMCewaHlrAJApAWQo8HQKhRHAbuhkeT9NQScfkDwBCsD/ J0AEEE5RU1BOsxHAK8BTcv8eACFgViFWgyQQJCARsCjw/08gJsEkIE4SCoVQcAeAHBDfG9JSMQOR U9AnMG9U5iky3RHwcivAKYEAcHkkYCPw9yASCHAm4XIEYBYAKCEfoP9M4FWWHBAcQgVABQAq4FIT 7G15HBAEIHcEkBzwCrH/BUBSYibxTCA2IA2wBPRSIf9NMweAA5Ers1OCHcBfRxzwv1G4SHEdATEh UXEbMHVicWckAlshBCAoc12xMQBlbi1QcAUAYGFjIAIlsGL/JyAdYFAgHPBdcVp2B3ADED9fggnw DbBI8CFQG4AgIv5UZzIxAAuAJgALUBzwJGC3BCAE8B3AZlFiBUBiI/H/JvEAcCYAOTFhAV/ACoU8 IN8bQCuxTmYm8QtgdyxyTqHfKlArwASgTlMc8EVhgRxw/1jCX7Ec4XBfVaYq4CvBYQW9BaBtbBEx ME3hVWB2BbDxIeBkLiJJL0o+GjUxBgsKhRUhAHnAAAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAAAAAEAABzAAOmWv qPm8AUAACDAAOmWvqPm8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AADhtA== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF97F.0CAF2920-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:29:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: acmeism / futurism I thought the following passage from a new study of a forerunner of both the Russian Acmeists and Futurists was quite interesting - linking futurist practice to the decadents of the late 19th century and early 20th in the approach to the word-as-such as self-enclosed or "quaint" object. In the same monograph, the author links the "classicism" of the acmeists not so much to the ancients, but to 19th-cent. french poetry again via Innokentii Annenskii. The book is "At the Crossroads of Russian Modernism: Studies in Innokentij Anneskij's poetics", by Anna Ljunggren; Stockholm Studies in Russian Literature. These issues of influence have some (maybe tangential) reference to contemporary "experimental" approaches. "Like a trail of fluorescent particles, terms enable us to follow the history of a style in its trajectory from the decadents to the futurists. It is well known that the acmeists considered Annenskij their teacher, and like him they turned to the French poetic tradition of both the Parnassians and "les maudits". Closer examination also reveals the continuity between the decadents and the futurists. Essentially, the French fin-de-siecle legacy is divided between acmeists and futurists, and one can find echoes between their paradigms which derive from their common ancestry. The exoticism discussed above, for example, is also present in futurist works such as Xlebnikov's _Zangesi_ and acmeist poetry such as Gumilev's "Ziraf"(The Giraffe). Mandelstam's recollected "blessed" word was brought to life by French Byzantianism and is no more connected with genuine Greek antiquity than are Xlebnikov's verbal incantations. The recollected "blessed senseless word" has an analogue in the archaisms of futurist _zaum_. Valuable in this respect is R.D. Timencik's analysis of Gumilev's poem "On the Distant Star Venus", which points to the parallels between the language consisting of vowels spoken by the inhabitants of Venus and the transrational vowels in the poetry of Xlebnikov and Kruchenyk. It remains only to add that this analogy can be explained as having evolved from a common root, namely the exotic synaesthesia of French symbolist poetry. At the center of attention in both systems is the relationship of the word to the thing. Both are based on the category of the "object" word and various interpretations of objectness. If the acmeists retain a focus on the linguistic nature of the word and cultivate object meanings, the futurists consistently and radically deny the difference between the word as sign and the word as meaning (cf. the street signs in futuristic work; see also Kruchenyk's manual on how to make futuristic poetry - _Displaceology of Russian Verse_). The identification of word and object gives rise to a manipulation of the word which is related to the decadents' neologizing. In other words, the futurist understanding of the word as artifact derives from the decadents' cult of the artificial and of the quaint object. These analogies reveal the historical paradox of Russian futurism - namely that the movement is a direct continuation - more consistent and radical than acmeism - of the very stratum of culture that the futurists furiously attacked. Because in the French tradition continuity is greater and the transitions smoother, the various forms of symbolism from the decadent Huysmans to the "imagist" Laforgue coexist within a single aesthetic tendency. Hypnotised by the alleged absolute novelty of the avant-garde, researchers have not brought up the question of the systemic links between these two related branches of Russian post- symbolism. In part this is due to the fact that our philological and theoretical notions of futurism have in many respects been shaped by the formalists, in particular Roman Jakobson, who as a friend and co-author of the futurists remained enclosed in the magic circle of the Russian avant-garde." Word and object. Aesthetic experiment comes into focus via communication theory - language as gesture and/or blocking or eliding of meaning. Sound and noise. Message and code. Both meaning and not-meaning as tools of expression. All this relates to the approach to "artifice" of several branches of the "New American poetry". In fact what Ljunggren identifies as French symbolist-decadent tradition - filtered in 2 directions through the seminal poetry of the Petersburg school principal I. Annenskii - could be seen as fractally exploded-imploded and taken to its "limit" by U.S. post-Olson experimentalism. - Henry Gould, Founder-Factotum of the Weird-Revisionist School ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:43:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Friends of Kathy Acker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As some of you may have heard, Kathy Acker is in crisis. She is in a hospital in Tijuana with cancer of the lung, liver and spleen. She is very weak and her only hope is the combined holistic and allopathic treatment she is receiving at American Biologics' clinic. But this help is costly and her financial resources are on the verge of running out. She has no medical insurance. Like many artists and writers, she was never able to secure benefits from any institution. Kathy Acker was diagnosed with breast cancer in April 1996. Shortly thereafter she had a full mastectomy and there was some involvement in her lymph nodes. After the surgery she underwent extensive alternative therapies in San Francisco, then moved to London to be with friends in August '96. (This period is described in "The Gift of Disease") Over the summer of 1997 she suffered increasingly bad health, ranging from digestive disorders to pneumonia. Once back in San Francisco in the fall, her condition worsened and she finally was taken to the emergency room by Sharon Grace and Matias Viegener. At Davies Medical Center, she was told she had advanced cancer of the liver, pancreas, spleen, and lungs. In the hospital, she was given few options but morphine and hospice care; Kathy chose to persue alternative treatment. On November 1, she was taken to American Biologics, a holistic integrated health clinic in Tijuana, Mexico. Thanks to treatment she is getting there, and her strong will, her condition is stable. However, she is running out of money. $28,000 of her savings of approximately $40,000 have already been spent in hospitalization in Mexico, and the bills from 8 days in Davies Medical Center in SF are already past $30,000 (these we hope to defer indefinitely; Medicare is still pending for at least part of them). The financial crisis is looming. We have made arrangements with the John Giorno Fund for Artists with AIDS to be the receiver of any contributions (which would make them tax-deductible, and 100% of the donations will go to Kathy's bills). The address is Giorno Poetry Systems, 222 Bowery NY NY 10012; the check itself may be made out to JOHN GIORNO and on the memo line write "Kathy Acker Fund." Kathy has a solid core of people caring for her and is happy with American Biologics' hospital, where Matias Viegener, Amy Scholder, Sylvere Lotringer, Ira Silverberg, and David Antin among others have been with her. As phone calls tend to exhaust her now, she asks that people who are concerned write her c/o American Biologics, Chula Vista, CA 91911 (this is the American office of the clinic). Anything you can do would be appreciated. Please forward this email to anyone you believe can help. Thank you, Matias Viegener, Los Angeles (viegener@calarts.edu) 213-667-0973 with David Antin, San Diego (dantin@ucsd.edu) 619-755-4619 Sharon Grace, San Francisco (grace@sirius.com) 415-543-3685 Sylvere Lotringer, New York (sl25@columbia.edu) 212-854-3956 Amy Scholder, New York (LonerA@aol.com) 212-673-4012 Ira Silverberg, New York (ira@silverberg.com) 212-614-7885 ps: http://www.abmex.com/ is the website for American Biologics. http://acker. thehub.com.au/gift.html has KA's article of last winter about her cancer. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:04:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: David Ignatow (1914-1997) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to Hank Lazar for that small but so complete eulogy. Heart/felt. ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ these words seem to be rehearsing - the unquantifiable extinction of all similitudes Roy Kiyooka ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aviva Vogel Subject: Re: David Ignatow (1914-1997) In a message dated 97-11-24 22:08:03 EST, you write: << Many thanks for sharing David Ignatow's work and your comments about how he influenced your work and life. >> Yes, thank you. I have been "on-and-off" attracted to his work; at the very least, I find it kind of "uplifting"! He's got a good soul. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:55:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Ignatow & Objectivism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I, too, was thinking of thanking Hank for his moving and thoughtful post on Ignatow when Ron's post below came over the wires. > Hank, > > Thanks for your post on Ignatow. > > I read him closely throughout the 1960s, far more sporadically after > that. I > was intrigued to see that he had suggested Oppen to you. I've always > read both > him and Harvey Shapiro (the former NYTBR editor) as two poets who > showed the > Williams influence very clearly, but in a way that demonstrated what > growing > up as a poet during the period when the Objectivists were silent and > out of > print would lead to -- decidedly on the far side of the New American > poetry > and generally antithetical to everything that has spun out from that. > I was looking at some Ignatow poems this morning from an old anthology, _The Voice That Is Great Within Us_ (discussed previously on the list). He was one of those figures that I devoured while in graduate school (this would have been in the 70s) -- a voice that I trusted implicitly, in the wake of so much that was false, pretentious, merely aesthetic. The simplicity and tough-mindedness appealed to me, yet a sure concern for craft (as Henry notes in another post this AM) was also apparent; his journals were a great read as well. But the connection to Oppen (surprising to me as well) gets to what I was thinking: here's a writer who could conceivably bridge the gap between competing "schools" -- someone whose work can be respected by people working all sides of the street -- so immediately to label him as "antithetical" to the New American Poetry (and we all know how problematic THAT appellation is to Ron, and others) seems to me unseemly. Enough with the opposing camps for a while -- let's appreciate the man and what he wrote, and did. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:14:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "trace s. ruggles" Subject: Re: oops Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > From: "David R. Israel" > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: oops > Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 01:20:07 -0400 > >[ was, Re: readings at the poetry project ] > >Regarding Willem Defoe, I senselessly wrote -- > >> some might also recall his recent appearance in *Seven Years in >> Tibet* (where he's -- ultimately -- an acolyte of the Dalai Lama) > >well, I guess I was thinking of Brad Pitt; pardon moi. Defoe does have the same boyish good looks... >Wasn't Defoe a longtime member of that astonishing multimedia troupe >that performs at The Garage (or is it The Gas Station)? (^ the name >of which theatre group escapes my mind, poss. for similar reasons as >my confounding Pitt for Defoe -- or maybe I've just been away from >NYC too long . . . ) it was called "The Wooster Group", and if I'm not mistaken, I think they still do performances occasionally. It's also where Spalding Gray did a lot of work on evolving his monologue writing/performances... >anway, sounds like a fun reading ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:17:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Eustache's The Mother & the Whore Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Since there was a lot of discussion about a year ago or so about whether this film was available on video (it doesn't seem to be), I imagine that some folks will be interested to know that it's scheduled to be screened in a new 35mm print 20-26 February at the Grand Illusion here in Seattle. While this run starts the day after that month's Subtext reading, so you out of towners COULD make a weekend trip of it (& we'd all love to see you here), it's probably more to the point that it'll be showing up at obscure rep houses & series this winter. Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:17:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: forthcoming Subtext readings Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Third Thursdays at 7:30 pm in the back room of Seattle's Speakeasy Cafe, in picturesque Belltown. December 18th - Joe Safdie & Dorothy Trujillo Lusk January 15th - Reuben Radding & Steven Forth Check it out. (& don't forget the usual post-function function at the Belltown Tavern). Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:51:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Literacy has a price, too. It is a trade off: you trade off the benefits and detriments of oral culture for the benefits and detriments of a written one. Values can be assigned to this transaction. It is, however, still a transformation. Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net 108 Mile Ranch, B.C. Canada ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:12:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Used Dog Urine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In Toronto a few years back I saw a man walking the street in front of City Hall, with a baseball game hot dog vendor style tray strapped on to his slight frame and full of chapbooks, and a cardboard sign hung around his neck with butcher cord, reading, in bright neon: USED DOG URINE: THE SECOND GREAT ANTHOLOGY OF BAD CANADIAN POETRY. What I found intriguing was that this grandstanding was most successful: he was continually approached by people and was actually selling the stuff. Is there a Used Dog Urine URL? Shouldn't there be? Hmmm? Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net 108 Mile Ranch, B.C. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:24:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Hubble's influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >"This principle was scoffed at by the ancients who >believed that the laws that governed the Earth and those that governed the >heavens were completely divorced." Sigh. As always, they didn't think of the consequences for the kids. ;-) Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net 108 Mile Ranch, B.C. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:16:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Guertin Subject: Re: Used Dog Urine In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" That was Krad Kolodny (spelling?). Some of his books are available through more usual channels. He is a self-proclaimed bad poet who made his living for many years selling 'bad' poetry on Yonge Street for a buck a pop. Interesting sort. Don't know of an URL though... Cheers, Carolyn >In Toronto a few years back I saw a man walking the street in front of City >Hall, with a baseball game hot dog vendor style tray strapped on to his >slight frame and full of chapbooks, and a cardboard sign hung around his >neck with butcher cord, reading, in bright neon: USED DOG URINE: THE SECOND >GREAT ANTHOLOGY OF BAD CANADIAN POETRY. What I found intriguing was that >this grandstanding was most successful: he was continually approached by >people and was actually selling the stuff. > >Is there a Used Dog Urine URL? Shouldn't there be? > >Hmmm? > >Harold Rhenisch >rhenisch@web-trek.net >108 Mile Ranch, B.C. ________________________________________________ Carolyn Guertin, Department of English, University of Alberta E-Mail: cguertin@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca; Tel/FAX: 403-432-2735 Website: http://www.ualberta.ca/~cguertin/Guertin.htm "Aldus [Manutius] is creating a library which has no boundaries other than the world itself." -- Erasmus ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:51:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Re: oops In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII let's not forget that Willem played the Old Possum in "Tom and Viv" __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:55:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: krad kolodny, bad poet of used dog urine Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" You can see right away that he is a bad poet--*needless* ambiguity. All for want of one hyphen. Natch, one wants to know whether he considers his poetry the outpourings of an as-it-were used dog, or the used outpourings of a so-to-speak dog. My thanks to Harold Rhenisch for drawing our attention to this matter of "bad poetry", and to Carolyn Guertin for identifying this particular perpetrator. George Bowering and Doug Barbour have fresh support in keeping Canadian culture alive on the Internet. I welcome Rhenisch's pithy comments.(Thought I'd say that before Henry did). But that's not just a joke, his comments are very pithy. Bad poetry has its history, and notable among Kolodny's precursors is William McGonagle (sp?), whose works are so very bad that they are always in print. In that way they back on to A.E.Housman's _A Shropshire Lad_ . But it may not be until our own day that a poet has set out to be *deliberately* bad. I allude to Douglas Powell, who for a while ran on a platform of "bad" poetry (or wherever the quotes should go) and even published a manifesto about it.(I will post this brief essay to the List upon request). He no longer presents himself as its advocate, however, and has fled that scene to pace the heavens overhead with his upcoming book from Wesleyan, _Tea_ . And very good it is, too--but then, I always thought his "bad" poetry was good. In fact, upon inspiration from Doug, I used to order the rest of my students to write bad poems,too, not just to feel that I was in control of the class, but to challenge them to consider esthetic value in the bluntest terms. By discussing whether Debbie's poem was worse than Scott's, we were freer than in our disputes as to whether there were any saving graces at all about Myfawnwy's or Cuthbert's. I even wrote some bad poems myself, as some of you will know. In Berkeley & SF in the 60s we had a street poet who took unto himself an Indian or Spanish name--it was just one word, which escapes my recall--but who was really Douglas Palmer. He would stand on street corners and write you a poem upon request. Some of those must have been quite bad, don't you think? But the Bubble-Lady of Berkeley, Julia Vinograd, is a street poet who writes poems that are really quite fine, looked at from the perspective of the appropriate poetics. Her autobiography, btw, in a recent volume from Gale Research is outstanding. Then there can be bad poetry in the sense that the Bad Lord Byron was bad, I suppose; like the Bad Charles Bukowski (although some readers think his poetry is bad in all senses). The word "bad" is beginning to take on the complete meaninglessness of any over-used word, & I will put an end to this right now. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:31:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: bad poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit to follow up on david's chiming in where how so many times Ive heard languaged poetries refered to as just plain BAD POETRY where the baddest keeps getting badder is there no saving the word? miekal ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:47:32 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Miekal And Subject: zaum + Re: acmeism / futurism = explodity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit just wanted to tag onto Henry's fine account of the beginning of the 20th century by mentioning that the 1913 Zaum Manifesto, "The Letter as Such" by by Velimir Khlebnikov & Alexei Kruchonykh is up at my page ZAUM IN THE AGE OF ELECTRONIC HUTS http://www.net22.com/qazingulaza/zaum.html Im also interested in posting any other zaum esoterica & pertinent links anyone cares to submit to me backchannel.... say Za' oom! Miekal And The Driftless Academy of Botanical Apparitions ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:08:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: forthcoming Subtext readings In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I forgot to mention, for the record (& the folks who asked), the reradings below mark the end of Robert Mittenthal's rotating curatorship and begin that of Ezra Mark. See you there then. >Third Thursdays at 7:30 pm in the back room of Seattle's Speakeasy Cafe, in >picturesque Belltown. > >December 18th - Joe Safdie & Dorothy Trujillo Lusk > >January 15th - Reuben Radding & Steven Forth > >Check it out. (& don't forget the usual post-function function at the >Belltown Tavern). > > > >Herb Levy >herb@eskimo.com Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 00:48:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: krad kolodny, bad poet of used dog urine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Bromidge said: He would stand on street corners and write you a poem upon request. Some of those must have been quite bad, don't you think? David, I hate to think it so, but I met one woman, I think she lived in England, who set up a booth during holiday shopping periods and wrote poems for people who wanted "personalized" poems to send someone. She made good money, especially during Valentine's and Xmas. It wasn't a full time activity, but paid better than many good poets ever make off their work. She offered to teach me her technique. While the possibility of intresting research into why and what type of poems would sell, I declined. I've heard of others who do the same in card shops and at mall booths. Maybe better marketing would help...didn't hurt Rod McCluen. Jerry. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:16:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: bad thanksgiving poem THE BAD ODE TO THANKSGIVING Thanksgiving! Turkey Day! What a happy time for friends and family, hey! Thanks goes first of all here in this poem to one of the great Americans, Ben Franklin! Because... because... because... ! ! If Ben had his way Turkey Day would be a birthday party for the National Bird of the U.S.A.! Hey! Sorry, Ben! Better luck next time with your bird! Thanksgiving! Turkey Day! Friends and family! They gather 'round the big stuffed animal and pour on the gravy and also the greasy warm conversation! Hey! It all started with the Pilgrims. Pocahontas poured gravy all over John Smith, and said, "squawk for yourself, John!" What a time they had, Indians and Americans, around the big long table, groaning, bored. Hey! So whenever Christmas rolls around again, remember Turkey Day! And take off for the hills! Loll on the old oak branch, with the other turkeys! Under the vague immensity of the empurpled sunset horizon sundown! ["!"] O America! What a great day! Hey! And while you're at it, O my people - don't forget the Bald Eagle! His mighty wings oe'r'spr'ead - his mighty talons crying - SQUAWK! ! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:51:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: IMBURGIA Subject: Re: bad thanksgiving poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ODE TO THANKSGIVING The Pilgrims came sick and weak, exhausted from the ride they landed in a foriegn land already occupied The people of the land came forth and shared of all they had they made the Pilgrims well again so everyone was glad Thanksgiving I was always taught was about that selfless sharing from the Indians to the Pilgrims as a sacred way of caring But I grew up and learned of truths otherwise left blind of how the white man stole the land and got the treaties signed How Indians were shoved aside and trampled in the wake of thousands more white people who desired land to take their deep traditions and beliefs considered to be odd these people of the forest who had always walked with God. I learned the truth from knowing them apart from lies and books and discovered Indian blood in my viens and in my looks I cherish them who showed the stranger hospitality and love they hold a cherished place in this ones heart,signed Spiritdove. 11/2/97 ---------- From: henry gould[SMTP:AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 5:16 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: bad thanksgiving poem THE BAD ODE TO THANKSGIVING Thanksgiving! Turkey Day! What a happy time for friends and family, hey! Thanks goes first of all here in this poem to one of the great Americans, Ben Franklin! Because... because... because... ! ! If Ben had his way Turkey Day would be a birthday party for the National Bird of the U.S.A.! Hey! Sorry, Ben! Better luck next time with your bird! Thanksgiving! Turkey Day! Friends and family! They gather 'round the big stuffed animal and pour on the gravy and also the greasy warm conversation! Hey! It all started with the Pilgrims. Pocahontas poured gravy all over John Smith, and said, "squawk for yourself, John!" What a time they had, Indians and Americans, around the big long table, groaning, bored. Hey! So whenever Christmas rolls around again, remember Turkey Day! And take off for the hills! Loll on the old oak branch, with the other turkeys! Under the vague immensity of the empurpled sunset horizon sundown! ["!"] O America! What a great day! Hey! And while you're at it, O my people - don't forget the Bald Eagle! His mighty wings oe'r'spr'ead - his mighty talons crying - SQUAWK! ! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:43:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: literacy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Literacy has a price, too. > >It is a trade off: you trade off the benefits and detriments of oral >culture for the benefits and detriments of a written one. > >Values can be assigned to this transaction. It is, however, still a >transformation. > > > >Harold Rhenisch >rhenisch@web-trek.net >108 Mile Ranch, B.C. Canada I have a dyslexic friend who is also a writer, in fact he won a major literary award a couple or three years back (and does not want his dyslexia widely known, so will remain anonymous). He feels very strongly that literacy has a serious price, and that price is alienation from the phenomenal world. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:42:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: bad thanksgiving poem In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:51:21 -0800 from Thanks, "Imburgia". Good to take the true spirit of the day out of the "bad poetry" category. a good reminder. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:24:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: krad kolodny, bad poet of used dog urine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hugh Kenner was recently on CBC radio, saying that the Shakespeare of the sonnets might have been a literary hack, writing the sonnets to the order of lovers of various kinds, for pay. Kenner based this on Pound's comment that he had done the same for the guards at St. Elizabeth's, who wanted poems to send to their sweethearts. I wonder if any of those have survived? I did a quick web search for bad poetry. Dull. Awful poetry. Duller. I did what I should have done in the first place: used dog urine. Well, well, well. I found a site called "Don't rub his nose in it". I think it is a new, alternative poetics web-site in disguise. From there: "The most important part of housetraining goes on not in your house but in your mind." "The biggest mistakes made in housetraining are made by the owners, not the puppy. These mistakes can mean the difference between a reliable, well-trained canine companion and a dog who has to be watched and restricted for the rest of his life." "New dog owners often don't understand how dogs think. The new owner believes that his puppy thinks the same way he does - and has the same ability to understand tough concepts such as cause and effect or evidence. This is simply not true." I also found a site called "Fooling the Bladder Cops". This thing is a massive found poem, of book-length yet. I doubled up over the keyboard in laughter. Yet another poetics site in disguise. No, not the keyboard: the bladder guys. One sample: "I heard from Dr. Grow that dog urine (of all things) can be substituted, and will pass the test! ... This subsection assumes you have a clean dog....It would make more sense to use human urine, but dog urine provides a workable substitution in an emergency." and remember, if you fail: "If you're an adult, contact ACLU. If you're a child, don't bother; ACLU won't do anything for children who fail the drug test." >From the Red Shift to the ACLU, poetics does indeed infiltrate all levels of society. Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net 108 Mile Ranch, B.C. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:01:34 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: Buy Nothing Day 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Buy Nothing Day 1997 is on Friday, November 28th (remember: it always falls on the first shopping day after US Thanksgiving, traditionally the busiest shopping day of the year, and a starter's pistol in the run-up to the Christmas shopping frenzy). This year, why not take part? Rise above the commodified, advertiser-engineered, niche-marketed, sales-figure-boosting, GDP-pumping consumerism of the Christmas Season. for more info, visit & follow the "Pop Goes Your Culture" link. Chris .. Christopher Alexander calexand@library.utah.edu Marriott Library Instruction 581-8323 (lv. msg.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:52:17 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Alexander Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: bad thinksgiving pome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT fooling the bladder cops (for Harold Rhenisch) this butler lends an air of sophistication to that public siphon. illuminate the press. many diagnoses of our postmodern condition hinge upon debates about the relative stress- patterns of crowd shopping. (it's all an act). some adults wonder @ the workings of Our Father. don't rub his nose in it: if you're an adult, contact the ACLU locally; if you're a child, don't bother. Chris .. Christopher Alexander calexand@library.utah.edu Marriott Library Instruction 581-8323 (lv. msg.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:57:44 -0500 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judy Roitman wrote, responding to Harold Rhenisch: > > I have a dyslexic friend who is also a writer, in fact he won a major > literary award a couple or three years back (and does not want his dyslexia > widely known, so will remain anonymous). He feels very strongly that > literacy has a serious price, and that price is alienation from the > phenomenal world. > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! > Math, University of Kansas | memory fails > Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." > 785-864-4630 | > fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Note new area code > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > http://titania.math.ukans.edu/faculty/roitman/ > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy, On what basis does your dyslexic friend see alienation from the phenomenal world as the price of literacy? Does he make that claim only for himself &/or other dyslexics, or for everyone, or only for non-dyslecics? Does he see that cost as permanent, or as operative only when slamdunking such moolah into tollbooths on the turnpike of actual reading/writing practice? Would he make a similar claim about orality, which has its own not-necessarily-natural orders? How does he compose? Dan Zimmerman Middlesex County College Edison, NJ 08818-3050 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:52:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: one more entry for the Turkey Award Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Congratulations, Henry on a real turkey of a poem, really really bad. You should get the prize. But the poster with the whidby e-ddress is pretty bad, too, once we dissociate the lofty sentiments from the execrable form, which was surely that person's intent, in calling their poem "bad".-- Since nothing else is going on on the List (has everyone gone elsewhere for Thanksgiving?--Joel, are you there? if so, b-c me!) I take the liberty to post my entry in the turkey-poem sweepstakes. It ensues forthwith : A Thanksgiving Poem That Would Be Bad If It Only Could I am a stranger in your land You are the Indians just for now and I am you in a likewise temporary manner Explaining your odd & divers customs Pouring forthright explanations into my sly European ear. . . I quote Ed Van Aelstyn, then Editor of the _Northwest Review_ When I was Poetry Editor And Ed wanted to run in the same issue (this was in 1963) (1) a photo-essay by Roger Prentice clearly favorable to Castro's Cuba (2) McClure's translation of Artaud's "To Have Done With the Judgement of God" and (3) a Whalen poem in which he says "I must stop masturbating so often" And I said "Ed, not all 3 in one issue, self-abuse, treason, blasphemy, You're going to kill the bird that has been laying such golden eggs" and Ed says "Enough of you, & of Richard Sassoon (a fellow-editor of Euro-U.S. background) with your sly European ways" I reckon that "bird" was a "turkey" after the university admin were thru with us They made it into an organ of little future interest Just the way it had been before Van took over When he was just a grad student at U of O which he was when we first met (1962) It was a student writers' conference at Eugene George Bowering and I drove down from Vancouver to attend We got drunk on Gallo Port (the same wine winos drink) And at the party chez Van Aelstyn we played charades (All of us, not just George & me) And next morning back at our motel (Which was an old-style motel, i.e., cabins) GB came into my cabin where I was laying on my bed of pain thinking about the filling that has just come out of my tooth Due I decided to drinking Gallo Port & resolving not to do so again (And I never have) and he said "Aren't you ashamed of yourself?" To which naturally I responded "Why, what did I do?", because In those days I didn't have complete recall of what had happened after I got drunk at parties) and predictably he responded "Why, don't you remember?" to which I of course replied "Would I be asking if I did, you Prince?!" [except I didn't say "Prince"] And George said "You don't remember playing charades?" And I said, "Yeah, sortof, why?" And he said "We were acting out book titles" and I said "Uh-huh" And he said, grinning that goofy grin of his, "And yours was 'The Naked and the Dead'" But I had suddenly lost interest Because being highly distractable I had focussed on George's pjs Which were boldly striped and cut short on the arms So the thin arms of the poet stuck out from the pjs Reminding me of a deckchair in a high wind On the way back George drove all the way very fast Because he wanted to be with his girlfriend of the moment And also because he thought he was "On the Road" Bowering But the rest of us in the car well we weren't so sure Ed made me Poetry Editor I guess he liked my charade {btw, none of this Had happened at Thanksgiving, this was in the spring} He would send me the submissions in Berkeley where I had moved to And I would lose them among my stacks of students' papers And the notes for grad essays & seminar papers & some poems Ed would get mad at me then I'd find most of them Most of them were really bad poems But then I got the word out around Frisco & Beserkeley So poets like McClure (not McCluen, aka McKuen(or McCluhan??) and Whalen sent their stuff and then all came about as I have already told which resulted in the loss of my modest stipend and Ed being fired but then that was all for the good Because he got a job at SF State and he was a linguist and he taught linguistics to Ron Silliman so that was how Language Poetry began now that wasn't too bad was it? And Van and Jim Koller and Will Wroth I _think_ started up _Coyote's Journal_ Which was sort of a journal of Projective Verse/ Snyderean ecoconsciousness It had an honorable table of contents not too dusty either huh? So when they wheel that sucker in on Thursday (lets hope thoroughly cooked so all the guests dont get sick and/or die) And while grandma is crossing herself & saying grace remember the Canadian grace "Good drink, Good meat, Good God, Let's eat" & remember the phrase "The naked and the dead" Think of people on this day who don't have any clothes to wear or don't have any life to move them from place to place To lift a fork to their mouths and chew For some of us it will be our last Thanksgiving although we don't know that at the time not usually and being slightly hysterical I don't want to experience that sense of pervasive unreality I experience when I think of my own chemise I expect I shall do as I have done for many years now Imitate the natives, eat too much, cultivate turkey torpor (which is an 'improvement' on a phrase of Richard Brautigan's, after he had cooked us an italian meal, "5 minutes now to spaghetti torpor") And since it would be unsocial to go to my study & write Watch 3 football games instead now I am beginning to grasp american football How it reveals the American genius for organization as Watten wrote recently Think of past Thanksgivings when lively persons of the poetic persuasion Graced my dinner table (not cooked & stuffed, I mean they sat there) (But not as in "they just sat there"--they might jump up to recite or to get another bottle or to tidy their dirty dishes away While I just sat there in poetic torpor) and so to bed eventually at such a loss for words our last words were likely Happy Thanksgiving! Ebenezer MacGonagal. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:00:26 GMT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L.MacMahon and T.R.Healy" Subject: Wild Honey Ad. Comments: To: british-poets@mailbase.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wild Honey Press is delighted to announce the publication of _Citation Suite_ by Robert Archambeau. It's a beautiful book which takes quotations from Virginia Woolf, Plato, E.M. Forster, Naipaul, Richard Rorty, Shelley, William Morris and Nathaniel Tarn and weaves them with other material in a meditation on culture and legibility. For a book written with such a light touch it has a remarkable way of coming back into mind. Insights, witticisms, lovely phrases. I'm not sure how to put this but it acts on the boundary between the well innovative and the mainstream in very interesting ways. Yes it is consciously constructed, works with constraints, undermines the monogrammed metaphor. But there is a joyfully lyrical presence, not so much in the diction or anything obviously nail-downable, but in the movement from feeling to idea. =20 Available from Wild Honey Books, 16a Ballyman Rd., Bray, Co. Wicklow,= Ireland,=20 e-mail Suantrai@iol.ie as above. =20 Price =A33.50 (U.K. & Ireland) or $5 (bills, no checks) or in exchange for a poem or indeed any piece of writing in any form. Best to all, Randolph Healy. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:19:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Carpenter Subject: Re: krad kolodny, bad poet of used dog urine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Harold-- What CBC program was this on and when is that show? In some parts of Seattle here one can catch the CBC radio bleedover signal from Victoria, BC. (FCC-free radio is a blessed thing.) Anyhow, would quite like to know more about it. Many thanks. BC On Wed, 26 Nov 1997, Harold Rhenisch wrote: > Hugh Kenner was recently on CBC radio, saying that the Shakespeare of the > sonnets might have been a literary hack, writing the sonnets to the order > of lovers of various kinds, for pay. Kenner based this on Pound's comment > that he had done the same for the guards at St. Elizabeth's, who wanted > poems to send to their sweethearts. I wonder if any of those have survived? > > I did a quick web search for bad poetry. Dull. Awful poetry. Duller. I did > what I should have done in the first place: used dog urine. Well, well, > well. I found a site called "Don't rub his nose in it". I think it is a > new, alternative poetics web-site in disguise. From there: > > "The most important part of housetraining goes on not in your house but in > your mind." > "The biggest mistakes made in housetraining are made by the owners, not the > puppy. These mistakes can mean the difference between a reliable, > well-trained canine companion and a dog who has to be watched and > restricted for the rest of his life." > "New dog owners often don't understand how dogs think. The new owner > believes that his puppy thinks the same way he does - and has the same > ability to understand tough concepts such as cause and effect or evidence. > This is simply not true." > > I also found a site called "Fooling the Bladder Cops". This thing is a > massive found poem, of book-length yet. I doubled up over the keyboard in > laughter. Yet another poetics site in disguise. No, not the keyboard: the > bladder guys. One sample: > > "I heard from Dr. Grow that dog urine (of all things) can be substituted, > and will pass the test! ... This subsection assumes you have a clean > dog....It would make more sense to use human urine, but dog urine provides > a workable substitution in an emergency." > > and remember, if you fail: > > "If you're an adult, contact ACLU. If you're a child, don't bother; ACLU > won't do anything for children who fail the drug test." > > >From the Red Shift to the ACLU, poetics does indeed infiltrate all levels > of society. > > Harold Rhenisch > rhenisch@web-trek.net > 108 Mile Ranch, B.C. > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:22:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: IMBURGIA Subject: Re: bad thanksgiving poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BCFA7D.AE645C00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCFA7D.AE645C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You are welcome! Spiritdove. (Dan Imburgias' wife...Ojibwa!) ---------- From: hen[SMTP:AP201070@BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 1997 10:42 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: bad thanksgiving poem Thanks, "Imburgia". Good to take the true spirit of the day out of the "bad poetry" category. a good reminder. - Henry G. ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCFA7D.AE645C00 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhAXAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG AFQBAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADAFAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAAFsAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABVQiBQb2V0aWNzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZ3JvdXAAU01UUABQT0VUSUNTQExJU1RTRVJW LkFDU1UuQlVGRkFMTy5FRFUAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgADMAEAAAAiAAAAUE9FVElD U0BMSVNUU0VSVi5BQ1NVLkJVRkZBTE8uRURVAAAAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAAHgAA ACdVQiBQb2V0aWNzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gZ3JvdXAnAAAAAgELMAEAAAAnAAAAU01UUDpQT0VUSUNT QExJU1RTRVJWLkFDU1UuQlVGRkFMTy5FRFUAAAMAADkAAAAACwBAOgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAA AAAF0kABCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAxCAEEgAEAGgAAAFJFOiBiYWQg dGhhbmtzZ2l2aW5nIHBvZW0AFgkBBYADAA4AAADNBwsAGgANABYAKwADAEoBASCAAwAOAAAAzQcL ABoADQAWACsAAwBKAQEJgAEAIQAAADAzMkYyRDFDRUU2NUQxMTE5MUEwNDQ0NTUzNTQwMDAwAM4G AQOQBgCoAwAAEgAAAAsAIwAAAAAAAwAmAAAAAAALACkAAAAAAAMANgAAAAAAQAA5AMB0um6x+rwB HgBwAAEAAAAaAAAAUkU6IGJhZCB0aGFua3NnaXZpbmcgcG9lbQAAAAIBcQABAAAAFgAAAAG8+rFu qRwtLwdl7hHRkaBERVNUAAAAAB4AHgwBAAAABQAAAFNNVFAAAAAAHgAfDAEAAAAVAAAAaW1idXJn aWFAd2hpZGJleS5jb20AAAAAAwAGECLEV5UDAAcQIQEAAB4ACBABAAAAZQAAAFlPVUFSRVdFTENP TUVTUElSSVRET1ZFKERBTklNQlVSR0lBU1dJRkVPSklCV0EpLS0tLS0tLS0tLUZST006SEVOU01U UDpBUDIwMTA3MEBCUk9XTlZNQlJPV05FRFVTRU5UOlcAAAAAAgEJEAEAAAAmAgAAIgIAANYDAABM WkZ1j6uDHP8ACgEPAhUCqAXrAoMAUALyCQIAY2gKwHNldDI3BgAGwwKDMgPFAgBwckJxEeJzdGVt AoMztwLkBxMCgzQSzBTFfQqAiwjPCdk7F58yNTUCgAcKgQ2xC2BuZzEwMy8UUAsKFWIMAWMAQCBZ BQhgIArAZSB3ZWxLBaAHgCEGAHBpBRB0AGRvdmUuIChELQORSQbQCHBnBzBzJw8c8AaQHiAfkE9q aWJgd2EhKSAKhQqLbBBpMTgwAtFpLTE8NDQN8AzQIjMLWTE21wqgA2AT0GMFQC0kVwqH1yMLDDAj 1kYDYTolXiPWCQyCIGgJ8FtTTVQwUDpBUAHQGsA3MABAQlJPV05WTYIuKjMuRURVXST/XyYNBmAC MCc/KEtXCYBu4QeQZGF5LAewHgEG0BEEkCAyNjAAMTk5ojcw4DA6NBYxTStfGSYNVG8tnyhLUE9F AFRJQ1NATElTgFRTRVJWLkE2EAJVKqBVRkZBTE/HKwIxzyxudWJqJBEz7wkoS1JlOkBiYWQgonQR gG5rcx7wdguAcGcgcG8T4CBfIWMzfjYi1xRRC/IzRzyzMAAixR6mIh4wIEdvBHA8kHJvPJBhaxzg PKBCsXKJClAgcx2jIG9mQsPbL9FDwHVDtgqFIjxiPXFBQxB5IiBjYRPQZ+UFsHlB0WEgRqBCIReg jm0LgASBHjAtIEgJ8LtGIEHwLj28CoUWwQBKUAAAAwAQEAAAAAADABEQAQAAAEAABzBgi19BsPq8 AUAACDDAdLpusfq8AR4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAA4PM= ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCFA7D.AE645C00-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:30:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Not poetry, but fun: check out the international Herald Tribune (iht.com) tomorrow--they usually reprint Art Buchwald's classic attempt to explain Thanksgiving to the French (Sample: Miles Standish becomes Kilometres Deboutish). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:38:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: Re: one more entry for the Turkey Award In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear sir we appreciate very much your poem however we take issue with your discreption of american football as having to do with american managerial practice when it is an allegory of territorialism and (as c.b. says intellectual property is also theft) have a nice meal and remain calm. Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:59:30 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Judy Roitman's dyslexic friend makes an interesting point about literacy's price being alienation from the phenomenal world, but my own take is that full appreciation of the phenomenal world only comes from the ability to view it from the afar of conceptuality. By the way, now that I'm posting two minute items close together, I'm reminded of the Buffalo site's daily quantity-of-posts maximum of 50. It shuts down for a day if more than 50 posts are made to it in any 24-hour period, or something like that. Does this site have anything similar? --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:55:13 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: bad thanksgiving poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry, The "poem" for Thanksgiving not only sucks, its bad history. Thanks for sharing, Jerry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 04:11:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Jerry E. Fletcher" Subject: Re: Buy Nothing Day 1997 Comments: To: calexand@library.utah.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No problem celebrating buy nothing day, I have no money. How about a coke? Is that off-limits? ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 02:28:46 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Weigl Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: friends of Kathy Acker]] Comments: To: "chadelia@walrus.com" Comments: cc: TONYG , "SHARROW@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU" , "Rehmke@aol.com" , Linda L Reller , Jordan Davis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Return-Path: Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu(src addr [128.171.3.53]) (5403 bytes) by malasada.lava.net via sendmail with P\:smtp/D:user/T:local (sender: ) (ident using rfc1413) id for ; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:24:14 -1000 (HST) (Smail-3.2.0.96 1997-Jun-2 #3 built 1997-Aug-20) Received: from lava.net ([128.171.220.71]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <586942(9)>; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:24:08 -1000 Message-ID: <347B26FF.413CA072@lava.net> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:29:03 -1000 From: Juliana Spahr X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.02 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: redmeat@lava.net Subject: [Fwd: friends of Kathy Acker] Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D0406EB15E679A6940059762" X-UIDL: 4211def17ab9e8c269097b79f2022eac X-Mozilla-Status: 0001 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------D0406EB15E679A6940059762 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------D0406EB15E679A6940059762 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Return-Path: Received: from mrin53.mail.aol.com(src addr [198.81.19.163]) (4264 bytes) by malasada.lava.net via sendmail with P\:esmtp/D:user/T:local (sender: ) id for ; Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:25:54 -1000 (HST) (Smail-3.2.0.96 1997-Jun-2 #3 built 1997-Aug-20) Received: (from root@localhost) by mrin53.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id EAA11064; Tue, 25 Nov 1997 04:23:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 04:23:53 -0500 (EST) From: MViegener@aol.com Message-ID: <971125042352_-1272564100@mrin53.mail.aol.com> To: maxfish@earthlink.net, V.Kirby@unsw.edu.au, naao@artswire.org, stadlerm@sprynet.com, TBiga@aol.com, SkippyD1@aol.com, samaras@earthlink.net, Beckman@earthlink.net, Rodney@wavenet.com, nmklein@msn.com, clin@indy1.calarts.edu, mschutzm@calarts.edu, dhebdige@calarts.edu, jwagner@indy1.calarts.edu, dbkk@sirius.com, grace@sirius.com, chrisko@sirius.com, js@lava.net, MsRosebush@aol.com, JODYZEL@aol.com, Soo@labridge.com, nbraver@earthlink.net, rpodolsk@calvin.pitzer.edu, nabil1@ix.netcom.com Subject: friends of Kathy Acker As some of you may have heard, Kathy Acker is in crisis. She is in a hospital in Tijuana with cancer of the lung, liver and spleen. She is very weak and her only hope is the combined holistic and allopathic treatment she is receiving at American Biologics' clinic. But this help is costly and her financial resources are on the verge of running out. She has no medical insurance. Like many artists and writers, she was never able to secure benefits from any institution. Kathy Acker was diagnosed with breast cancer in April 1996. Shortly thereafter she had a full mastectomy and there was some involvement in her lymph nodes. After the surgery she underwent extensive alternative therapies in San Francisco, then moved to London to be with friends in August '96. (This period is described in "The Gift of Disease") Over the summer of 1997 she suffered increasingly bad health, ranging from digestive disorders to pneumonia. Once back in San Francisco in the fall, her condition worsened and she finally was taken to the emergency room by Sharon Grace and Matias Viegener. At Davies Medical Center, she was told she had advanced cancer of the liver, pancreas, spleen, and lungs. In the hospital, she was given few options but morphine and hospice care; Kathy chose to persue alternative treatment. On November 1, she was taken to American Biologics, a holistic integrated health clinic in Tijuana, Mexico. Thanks to treatment she is getting there, and her strong will, her condition is stable. However, she is running out of money. $28,000 of her savings of approximately $40,000 have already been spent in hospitalization in Mexico, and the bills from 8 days in Davies Medical Center in SF are already past $30,000 (these we hope to defer indefinitely; Medicare is still pending for at least part of them). The financial crisis is looming. We have made arrangements with the John Giorno Fund for Artists with AIDS to be the receiver of any contributions (which would make them tax-deductible, and 100% of the donations will go to Kathy's bills). The address is Giorno Poetry Systems, 222 Bowery NY NY 10012; the check itself may be made out to JOHN GIORNO and on the memo line write "Kathy Acker Fund." Kathy has a solid core of people caring for her and is happy with American Biologics' hospital, where Matias Viegener, Amy Scholder, Sylvere Lotringer, Ira Silverberg, and David Antin among others have been with her. As phone calls tend to exhaust her now, she asks that people who are concerned write her c/o American Biologics, Chula Vista, CA 91911 (this is the American office of the clinic). Anything you can do would be appreciated. Please forward this email to anyone you believe can help. Thank you, Matias Viegener, Los Angeles (viegener@calarts.edu) 213-667-0973 with David Antin, San Diego (dantin@ucsd.edu) 619-755-4619 Sharon Grace, San Francisco (grace@sirius.com) 415-543-3685 Sylvere Lotringer, New York (sl25@columbia.edu) 212-854-3956 Amy Scholder, New York (LonerA@aol.com) 212-673-4012 Ira Silverberg, New York (ira@silverberg.com) 212-614-7885 ps: http://www.abmex.com/ is the website for American Biologics. http://acker. thehub.com.au/gift.html has KA's article of last winter about her cancer. --------------D0406EB15E679A6940059762-- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 08:21:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Hugh Kenner on CBC Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For Brian Carpenter & any interested others: Hugh Kenner delivered a weeks' worth of this year's Massey Lectures on the CBC radio program, "Ideas," last week. It may (indeed, probably will) be re-broadcast next summer, but it should certainly be made available in book form eventually. I forget the title, but he was dealing, very wittily the one segment I heard, with the culture of travel & bordercrossings etc. A kind of popular summing up of a lot of the ideas he has promoted throughout his career. On another note: between old gossip & new views of the pilgrim fathers etc, the 'bad poems' eally did their proper job, & how I do like the proper in poetry... thanks to all who cared enough to send their very worst... ============================================================================= Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta T6G 2E5 (403) 492 2181 FAX:(403) 492 8142 H: 436 3320 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ these words seem to be rehearsing - the unquantifiable extinction of all similitudes Roy Kiyooka ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:09:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Grumman wrote: >Judy Roitman's dyslexic friend makes an interesting point about >literacy's price being alienation from the phenomenal world, but my own >take is that full appreciation of the phenomenal world only comes from >the ability to view it from the afar of conceptuality. Bob, both are true, aren't they? Sure they are. Just different. That's why literacy is a price. You get the full appreciation, but it is from the afar of conceptuality. Mind you, who's defining 'full appreciation'? Mr. Phenomenal or Mr. Conceptual? best, Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net 108 Mile Ranch, B.C. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:02:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Kenner on the CBC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Carpenter wrote: >What CBC program was this on and when is that show? In some parts of >Seattle here one can catch the CBC radio bleedover signal from Victoria, >BC. (FCC-free radio is a blessed thing.) Anyhow, would quite like to know >more about it. Many thanks. Brian, it was on "Ideas" every night last week, from 9 to 10 p.m. Kenner was this year's Massey Lecturer, which is a big deal. He spoke on "The Elsewhere Community". Basically, his thesis was that western culture has been fertilized since at least Homer by the need to gain knowledge, and to gain this knowledge from somewhere else. More or less, it was a talk about mentorship. One night was Pound, another Joyce, another Williams, with anecdotes about Eliot, Beckett, Moore, Lowell, Homer, and a lot more besides. You can get a text or taped copy from the CBC or a text copy, soon, through your bookstore. The text is called "The Elsewhere Community" and it will be published by House of Anansi Press. The CBC will send you a copy for CDN$19. They will send you a set of tapes for CDN$53. The charges include shipping and taxes. Who knows if there is an extra charge for the U.S. write to: Massey Lectures, Ideas Transcripts, P.O. Box 500, Station A, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M5W 1E6. By the way, CBC is available on RealAudio, for people in Bosnia, Bulgaria, Slovakia, and, I suppose, the Autonomous Republic of Seattle. Best, Harold Rhenisch rhenisch@web-trek.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:35:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: Buy Nothing Day 1997 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >No problem celebrating buy nothing day, I have no money. How about a >coke? Is that off-limits? You mean that out there at IBM.NET you can get a coke without money? HR ;-) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:15:34 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harold Rhenisch gave me a question that might be the very first I've ever gotten from our discussion group that I KNOW I can answer with no fear of (sane) contradiction when he asked, "Who's defining 'full appreciation' (of the phenomenal world)? Mr. Phenomenal or Mr. Conceptual?" Answer: Only Mr. Conceptual would be able to define anything. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 13:49:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Grumman wrote: >Harold Rhenisch gave me a question that might be the very first I've >ever gotten from our discussion group that I KNOW I can answer with no >fear of (sane) contradiction when he asked, "Who's defining 'full >appreciation' (of the phenomenal world)? Mr. Phenomenal or Mr. >Conceptual?" Answer: Only Mr. Conceptual would be able to define >anything. --Bob G. You're welcome, Bob. No trouble. Well said. Still, what would Mr. Phenomenal have to say about that? We can only guess. Very rightly you hint that he would have nothing to say. So? I propose using the considerable resources of the western capitalist de mock race ease to erect a sliding barrier between the phenomenal and the conceptual, a barrier porous enough that a traveller starting out in the mountains of Phenomena could set off on a long journey across the steppes, s journey so long that when said traveller arrived at Mr. Concept's door, the traveller could speak only of the journey, in bright images, and any conceptual links would be incidental, and would, conceptually speaking, be the journey. Poor Mr. Concept would have to set out on the reverse journey. A conceptual conversation would ensure, surely, but it could not be reduced. To reduce it to anything else would be to step outside it. Poof! Mr. Concept would be sitting on his doorstep again, smoking his pipe in the evening, watching the sublime sun set through the sublime old fruit trees of abandoned orchards, and he would not even know that he was still on a journey, because he would have no phenomena by which to experience it. Insanely, Harold ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:29:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: literacy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Concepts protect us from experience. So she had conceived. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:58:42 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: "Concepts protect us from experience. So she had conceived." And experience protects one from concepts. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:27:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: literacy/concept/phenom/thread Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes, Bob, but that formulation, "experience protects one from concepts," is conceptual. I agree that wisdom gleaned from experience gives one a wise mistrust of concepts, even though that too is a concept. But that wasn't all I was after when I wrote, "Concepts protect us from experience. So she had conceived." One, I imagined a concept, in "her" mind, as a condom; rejecting its use, she becomes pregnant ("so she had conceived.") I wanted to imply there is a price to pay for pooh-poohing the conceptual. But there is a price to pay for operating only via conceputal wisdoms--one of which might be the extinction of life itself ("for who would fardels bear"...or babies!? ) I don't think the balance you name quite operates by that sort of symmetry. I doubt that unconceptualized experience is available to us, so I don't see the conceptual and the experiential as true opposites. Granted, this is subject to a further turn of the screw, whereby, in order to preserve any meaning at all for the word _experience_ , we can argue that if all our experience is only experience of the conceptual, then that _is_ what experience means, ands that _is_ experience. But out of such bottlenecks there is sometimes a way, if only via a retreat. Reading Merleau-Ponty is not the same as reading Fichte. So the "retreat" is from the general absolute towards the realm of the particular, which is I take it a phenomenological tack. For instance, I have now quite forgotten how this "literacy" thread turned into this concept v. phenomenon thread. David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:27:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: literacy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bob Grumman wrote > david bromige wrote: "Concepts protect us from experience. So she > had conceived." And experience protects one from concepts. so he had experienced d.i. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:22:53 -0500 Reply-To: BobGrumman@nut-n-but.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: literacy/concept/phenom/thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, I think I'm with you all the way on this one. Although I did miss the concept/condom pun. I don't think it's concept versus the phenomenal but concept added to the phenomenal world. I just saw a chance to make a quick score (I thought) on behalf of one of my buzz dogmas: the unreflected-on life isn't worth living. I don't know how this discussion got started, either, but I do know I'm still having trouble with being in two discussion groups, this one and the modern poetry one, especially when someone like Harold R. writes two letters that arrive here at the same time, one to each group. So I've been answering some letters from thread in this group to the other group and vice versa. That includes the following comment for this concept/ phenomenal world thread that explains my position a little more: As for pore Mister Conceptual's attempt to tell of his journey through the phenomenal world, you described it well. The conceptual must be founded on the sensual, or phenomenal. In fact, in my decidedly uncertified theory of psychology (now you're in for it), I call that part of the brain that deals with sensory information The Fundaceptual Awareness. The conceptual part of the brain I call The Reducticeptual Awareness. There are other -ceptual awarenesses I refuse to reveal at this time, but hope to discuss at a personal website before too long. Nothing too original about these awarenesses; they mostly follow Howard Gardner's ideas--which, in turn, are not particularly original, either. --Bob G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:38:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: for your amusement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For your amusement, check out the following piece from the IHT re Rushdie vs Le Carré in the letter columns of the Guardian. http://www.iht.com/IHT/TODAY/THU/FPAGE/feud.html will keep you another 10 minutes from going out & shopping on the day after. happy post-gobble daze, Pierre -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel/fax (518) 426 0433 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Adding music to a good poem is like using a stained-glass window to light a painted picture. — Paul Valéry ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:46:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: "gang" review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Listfolks, Just wanted to alert y'all to a review I wrote for latest issue of _American Book Review_. Chapbooks and websites reviewed are those of Mark Wallace, Kristin Prevallet, Jeffeson Hansen, Wendy Battin and Jena Osman. Chapbooks are available from Mary Hilton's primitive publications, 1706 U St., NW, #102, Washington, D.C. They are: The Haunted Baronet, by Mark Wallace Lead, Glass and Poppy, by Kristin Prevallet Why I Am Not a Christian, by Jefferson Hansen Websites reviewed are at: http://camel.conncoll.edu/ccother/wjbat http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/osman Many other familiar names of reviewers in this issue as well. cheers, Steven __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:18:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: phenomena MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT It's Buy Nothing Day, and I haven't bought a thing. But now I'm wondering: Is the nature of that act (or non-act) mainly phenomenal or conceptual? Is "not-buying" phenomenal things for a day something like an _idea_ with no phenomenal status at all, like, for example, the "just yet" in "I have to go to the bathroom after all that turkey, but I'm not going to go_ just yet_"? (I think Wittgenstein said something like that.) Or is it _commodities_ that are purely conceptual and their "thingness" only index of a phenomenally (historical relations of production, exchange, etc.) constructed fetishism which is, of course, ideological and thus conceptual through and through? In other words, are social relations and our actions that help make them up (like buying or not-buying) _more real_ than all those apparent "things" up for sale? (I think Marx said something like that.) But what if not-buying really_is_ just a concept? I mean if commodities are only conceptual in nature and my one-day act of resistance to them is, from an ontological standpoint (am I using ontological correctly here?), not disimilar from them, then is it possible that "buying-nothingness" is actually a kind of commodity (like a scentless perfume suddenly all the rage) that enters into a deeper set of real and existing relations that are obscured from me? And is that question in any way applicable to all poetry today? I honestly don't know, and it's driving me so crazy that I'm just glad I bought twice as much to drink yesterday knowing that I wouldn't be buying anything today. Cheers to the violence within that protects us from the violence without. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:51:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Bromige and Tennyson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT By the way, did anyone notice that David Bromige's supposedly "bad" entry for the Turkey Award, "A Thanksgiving Poem That Would Be Bad If Only It Could", is actually a sustained quantitative alternation (albeit with a few variations) of Alcaic and Sapphic verses? I have an eye for these things ever since I discovered that Tennyson's "Hesperides," generally considered to be a failed poem because it doesn't scan accentually, is a quantitative experiment with the amphimacer as insistent meter within longer aeolic units. It fits with the theme: Hercules was originally from Crete. I almost got the paper published in Victorian Poetry, but one of the readers said that surely, if ALT had intended such, we would find something in his notes and letters about it! Talk about stuffy... Kent ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:16:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "David R. Israel" Subject: Re: phenomena MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kent, it's beyond me to reply to all your points, so here's just a part -- > But what if not-buying really_is_ just a concept? I mean if > commodities are only conceptual in nature . . . no no, they're not only conceptual in nature. They have physical substantiation. If you try to say they're only conceptual, I'm just not buying it. > . . . is it possible that "buying-nothingness" is actually a kind of > commodity (like a scentless perfume suddenly all the rage) that > enters into a deeper set of real and existing relations that are > obscured from me? I don't know, but I just checked out the "Cafe Nirvana" on the Tricycle site (http://www.tricycle.com/ ). The slogan might be germane to this discussion? -- "It's Always Empty, Even When You're There" I woulda gone shopping if I hadn't stayed at home. d.i. . ..... ............ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\/////\\\\\ > david raphael israel < >> washington d.c. << | davidi@mail.wizard.net (home) | disrael@skgf.com (office) ========================= | thy centuries follow each other | perfecting a small wild flower | (Tagore) //////////////////////////////////////////\\\\\///// ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:57:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harold Rhenisch Subject: Re: literacy/concept/phenom/thread MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >I don't know how this discussion got started, either. With thoughts on dyslexia generating the insight that literacy's price was a loss of the phenomenal world, following up my thoughts on literacy being a price paid. >I'm still having trouble with being in two discussion groups, this one and >the modern poetry one, especially when someone like Harold R. writes two >letters that arrive here at the same time, one to each group. So I've >been answering some letters from thread in this group to the other group >and vice versa. Bizarre, isn't it. Harold ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:08:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Guest festschrift at Brown In-Reply-To: <199711290616.BAA19925@radagast.wizard.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can anyone point me toward more information on the 1994 festschrift on Barbara Guest? (I'm starting from point zero--all I know is that such a thing did happen--so any and all leads would be greatly appreciated.) Found poetics department--and a reminder to be really specific about those web search parameters--you wouldn't *believe* the number of women named Barbara who have guest books on their web pages. thanks-- Gwyn ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:40:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: Bromige and Tennyson Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear Kent, Does "The Hesperides" have another title? I can't find it in my complete Tennyson. And now I'm very curious. . .. This is also the first I've heard of a connection between cretics and Crete. Do you know more about that and could you point me to a reference? My Princeton ency. has led me to an inconsequential poem of ALT's in cretics called "The Oak," b ut that's it. Annie.. >Dear Annie: > >Thanks for the note. Yes, just a bit of fun, though I do think I >might have a point about ALT's "The Hesperides" (though what I said >about Hercules was a little clue to the joke about Bromige). But the >cretic is the dominant pattern in that poem, especially when the >Hesperides "sing," and it is interesting that Crete may be the most >logical site for this particular labor of Hercules. All of which is >pretty esoteric, but there you have it. Feel free to forward this to >the list if you want. There's been nothing on there in the past two >days, and I'm a bit worried that everyone is busy trying to do a >quantitative analysis of DB's turkey poem! >best, >Kent > >> Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:11:52 -0500 >> To: kjohnson@STUDENT.HIGHLAND.CC.IL.US >> From: finchar@muohio.edu (Annie Finch) >> Subject: Re: Bromige and Tennyson > >> Dear Kent, >> >> Your remarks on the scansion are a joke, right? I'm backchanneling this >> because if they are, I'm embarrassed that I don't get it. If it's not a >> joke, please feel free to forward my present message and your reply to the >> list so we can discuss the prosody on the list---it would make a nice >> change of pace, don't you think? >> >> I really liked your comment about the commodification of the buy nohting >> concept and do think it applies to poetry. >> >> More on that later. >> >> Annie >> >> >By the way, did anyone notice that David Bromige's supposedly "bad" >> >entry for the Turkey Award, "A Thanksgiving Poem That Would Be Bad >> >If Only It Could", is actually a sustained quantitative alternation >> >(albeit with a few variations) of Alcaic and Sapphic verses? I have >> >an eye for these things ever since I discovered that Tennyson's >> >"Hesperides," generally considered to be a failed poem because it >> >doesn't scan accentually, is a quantitative experiment with the >> >amphimacer as insistent meter within longer aeolic units. It fits >> >with the theme: Hercules was originally from Crete. I almost got the >> >paper published in Victorian Poetry, but one of the readers said that >> >surely, if ALT had intended such, we would find something in his >> >notes and letters about it! Talk about stuffy... >> >Kent >> >> >> >> A Thanksgiving Poem That Would Be Bad If It Only Could >> >> I am a stranger in your land >> You are the Indians just for now >> and I am you in a likewise temporary manner >> Explaining your odd & divers customs >> Pouring forthright explanations into my sly European ear. . . >> I quote Ed Van Aelstyn, then Editor of the _Northwest Review_ >> When I was Poetry Editor >> And Ed wanted to run in the same issue (this was in 1963) >> (1) a photo-essay by Roger Prentice clearly favorable to Castro's Cuba >> (2) McClure's translation of Artaud's >> "To Have Done With the Judgement of God" >> and (3) a Whalen poem in which he says "I must stop masturbating so often" >> And I said "Ed, not all 3 in one issue, self-abuse, treason, blasphemy, >> You're going to kill the bird >> that has been laying such golden eggs" and Ed says >> "Enough of you, & of Richard Sassoon (a fellow-editor of Euro-U.S. >> background) with your sly European ways" >> I reckon that "bird" was a "turkey" >> after the university admin were thru with us >> They made it into an organ of little future interest >> Just the way it had been before Van took over >> When he was just a grad student at U of O >> which he was when we first met (1962) >> It was a student writers' conference at Eugene >> George Bowering and I drove down from Vancouver to attend >> We got drunk on Gallo Port (the same wine winos drink) >> And at the party chez Van Aelstyn we played charades >> (All of us, not just George & me) >> And next morning back at our motel >> (Which was an old-style motel, i.e., cabins) >> GB came into my cabin where I was laying on my bed of pain >> thinking about the filling that has just come out of my tooth >> Due I decided to drinking Gallo Port & resolving not to do so again >> (And I never have) and he said "Aren't you ashamed of yourself?" >> To which naturally I responded "Why, what did I do?", because >> In those days I didn't have complete recall of what had happened >> after I got drunk at parties) and predictably he responded >> "Why, don't you remember?" to which I of course replied >> "Would I be asking if I did, you Prince?!" [except I didn't say "Prince"] >> And George said "You don't remember playing charades?" >> And I said, "Yeah, sortof, why?" And he said >> "We were acting out book titles" and I said "Uh-huh" >> And he said, grinning that goofy grin of his, >> "And yours was 'The Naked and the Dead'" >> But I had suddenly lost interest >> Because being highly distractable I had focussed on George's pjs >> Which were boldly striped and cut short on the arms >> So the thin arms of the poet stuck out from the pjs >> Reminding me of a deckchair in a high wind >> On the way back George drove all the way very fast >> Because he wanted to be with his girlfriend of the moment >> And also because he thought he was "On the Road" Bowering >> But the rest of us in the car well we weren't so sure >> Ed made me Poetry Editor I guess he liked my charade {btw, none of this >> Had happened at Thanksgiving, this was in the spring} >> He would send me the submissions in Berkeley where I had moved to >> And I would lose them among my stacks of students' papers >> And the notes for grad essays & seminar papers & some poems >> Ed would get mad at me then I'd find most of them >> Most of them were really bad poems >> But then I got the word out around Frisco & Beserkeley >> So poets like McClure (not McCluen, aka McKuen(or McCluhan??) >> and Whalen sent their stuff and then all came about as I have already told >> which resulted in the loss of my modest stipend >> and Ed being fired but then that was all for the good >> Because he got a job at SF State >> and he was a linguist and he taught linguistics to Ron Silliman >> so that was how Language Poetry began now that wasn't too bad was it? >> And Van and Jim Koller and Will Wroth I _think_ started up _Coyote's Journal_ >> Which was sort of a journal of Projective Verse/ Snyderean ecoconsciousness >> It had an honorable table of contents not too dusty either huh? >> So when they wheel that sucker in on Thursday >> (lets hope thoroughly cooked so all the guests dont get sick and/or die) >> And while grandma is crossing herself & saying grace >> remember the Canadian grace "Good drink, Good meat, Good God, Let's eat" >> & remember the phrase "The naked and the dead" >> Think of people on this day who don't have any clothes to wear >> or don't have any life to move them from place to place >> To lift a fork to their mouths and chew >> For some of us it will be our last Thanksgiving although we don't know that >> at the time not usually and being slightly hysterical I don't want >> to experience >> that sense of pervasive unreality I experience when I think of my own chemise >> I expect I shall do as I have done for many years now >> Imitate the natives, eat too much, cultivate turkey torpor >> (which is an 'improvement' on a phrase of Richard Brautigan's, >> after he had cooked us an italian meal, "5 minutes now to spaghetti torpor") >> And since it would be unsocial to go to my study & write >> Watch 3 football games instead now I am beginning to grasp american football >> How it reveals the American genius for organization as Watten wrote recently >> Think of past Thanksgivings when lively persons of the poetic persuasion >> Graced my dinner table (not cooked & stuffed, I mean they sat there) >> (But not as in "they just sat there"--they might jump up to recite >> or to get another bottle or to tidy their dirty dishes away >> While I just sat there in poetic torpor) and so to bed eventually >> at such a loss for words our last words were likely Happy Thanksgiving! >> >> Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) >> Department of English >> Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 >> >> >> >> Annie Finch ( Homepage: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ) Department of English Miami University, Oxford, Ohio 45220 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:03:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kathy Acker Kathy died last night in a Tijuana treatment center. Reportedly, her death was "peaceful." Rae A. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:11:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: James Laughlin Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just returned from two weeks in Paris, where I was participating in the poetry Biennale; accordingly I was unable to participate in the conversations surrounding J Laughlin and New Directions. However, while in Paris, the LA WEEKLY asked me to write a small piece of Laughlin, and I thought some of you might be interested in my comments. I write from Paris, where, for literary reasons, I have been visiting the great cemetaries of thecity: Pere Lachaise, Montparnasse, Montmartre and Passy. And suddenly the writer Jerome Rothenberg reports the death of James Laughlin. I use the word SUDDENLY, not because one did not expect the death--J, as his friends called him, was 83--but because for so many decades now, Laughlin's publishing house, New Directions, has demonstrated that there could be something in American literature other than that produced by the commerical conglomerates, and because those of us who took that lesson to heart could never have properly prepared ourselves for its founder's passing and, thus, its possible absence from the American scene. The young would-be poet who visited Ezra Pound in Italy certainly did not appear a likely candidate for either profession. As the heir to the Inland Steel company, he might have been expected to have chosen other, less problematic avocations. Pound pronounced Laughlin "not much of a poet" and suggested he "do something useful like publishing." It is part of Laughlin's genius that he took Pound's advice-- along with his writing. Beginning in 1936, Laughlin began to publish Pound and the work of othr poets recommended to him: William Carlos Williams, Dylan Thomas, George Oppen, Carl Rakosi, and Kenneth Rexroth (who himself would later serve as an un- official advisor). He reprinted important works of American fiction such as Djuna Barnes's NIGHTWOOD, Gertrude Stein's THREE LIVES and Nathanel West's MISS LONLEYHEARTS, and added drama to his list with the plays of Tennessee Williams. What was even more amazing about Laughlin, however, was that he not only published these authors--there have been a number of wealthy men and women who have treated publishing as a philanthropic hobby--but committed himself to many of these writers over several decades, bringing out their every book. From his home in Connecticut and his somewhat dowdy but serviceable offices in New York, Laughlin built up a loyal and partisan staff of editors--who through the years have included the late Robert MacGregor (for many years his right-hand man), Griselda Ohannessian, the translator and novelist Peter Glassgold, Peggy Fox, Barbara Epler and others--helping him to acquire and edit books by some of the most important writers of the century: Louis-Ferdinand Céline, Eugenio Montale, Federico Garcia Lorca, St.-John Perse, Raymond Queneau, Octavio Paz, Mikhail Bulgakov, Anonio Tacucchi, Clarice Lispector, Kamu Braithwaite, and Bei Dao, to name only a few. American writing, however, remained at the center of New Directions' ventures. Its list of American writers is for- midable, including John Hawkes, Robert Duncan, Michael McClure, Henry Miller, Gary Snyder, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Guy Davenport, Toby Olson, Jerome Rothenberg, David Antin, and, in recent years, Bernadette Mayer, Susan Howe, Michael Palmer, and my own collection of writers of "Language" poetry. Laughlin was not only loyal and imaginativae in his pub- lishing activities, but, despite Pound's abjuration, he con- tinued to write his own poetry--was prolific in fact. He gen- erally chose not to publish his own poems, which may have contributed to his neglect. But in recent years, collections have appeared under the imprints of several smaller presses, and his POEMS: NEW AND SELECTED is dure out this spring from New Directions. The poet-publisher is a rarity, and James Laughlin brought something far more importnat than money and commitment to publishing; he brought a vision--in a period of an ever-expanding drive for simplicity of information, in a time of news "briefs" and "blips," computer "hits," and formulaic writing in literature, film and television--a vision that believed in the complexity of human language and thought. The books of New Directions are generally entertaining and enjoyable to read, but they offer something more: human confusion, uncertainty, doubt. When reading them, one is often frustrated, pained, angered, even infuriated. In breif, they represent the beautifully rich and terrorizing tapestry of human life. No bromides, quick winks and asides, no stereotypical characterizations here. For years Laughlin's books appeared bound in covers printed only in black and white; it was almost as if the books them- selves invited careful scrutiny before one entered their pages. And when one did enter, the entire world opened up. It is hard to explain that effect on young and often starving minds. In the middle of Iowa, my adolescent fists found that the books of this great poet-publisher were a natural fit, and the mind was made to come alive. Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:24:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: errors in Laughlin Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few corrections to the letter on J. Laughlin just sent. First paragraph: line 6 : small piece ON Laughlin Fifth paragraph: Antonio Tabucchi Seventh paragraph: imaginative in his publishing activities his POEMS: NEW AND SELECTED is due out Eighth paragraph: line 2 something far more important line 9 In brief, they represent Sorry for the errors in my quick typing. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:51:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Natacha Lallemand Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Does anybody have an address, physical or virtual, for Natacha Lallemand, a student at the Sorbonne? If so, please back-channel me or call directly. Thanks! Ron Silliman rsillima@ix.netcom.com (610) 251-2214