========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 22:58:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: Shoptaw III Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What about "lexia"? and to broaden the subject some, is anyone aware of work that uses Iser's concepts of 'fictive' and 'imaginary' in relation to poetry as play. Iser does a fine job, but doesn't delve into poetry. tom bell At 07:43 PM 7/31/98 +0300, you wrote: >Thanks for many helpful backchannel tips on what poets have used prosodic >measures such as the charecter, word, phrase, etc. But again, I ws hoping >to hear about _critical/ theoretical_ texts in which such measures are >introduced/ used/ discussed. Or where prosody or the poem's soundscape is >discussed in terms of syntax, grammar, instead of meter or phonology. > >:: Reading John Shoptaw's "The Music of Construction - Measure and Polyphony >:: in Ashbery and Bernstein" (in The Tribe of John) I'm just wondering who >:: else has used these units of prosodic measurement - character, word, >:: line, phrase, sentence, section. I'm aware of Silliman's use of >:: sentence but not much else. > >Fred Hertzberg > > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 21:23:48 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: varia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For Ron: you're quite right re Lowell, Creeley, Whalen but don't forget that it was very difficult to get out of being drafted and one had to have all kinds of connections. Lowell did spend time in jail, as recorded in Life Studies. I don't know about Whalen. Creeley was ofcourse 4F. I had just meant that you couldn't just "decide" not to go although long-time Quakers were pretty much exempt for religious reasons. Shift of topic: There's an excellent piece on the visual element in Olson's poetry in WORD & IMAGE by Christian Moraru who has just gone from Indiana to teach at North Carolina-Greensboro. "Topos/ typos / tropos": visual strategies and the mapping of space in Charles Olson's poetry." Vol. 14, no. 3 (July-Sept 1998), 253ff. Moraru shows how "the political potential of Concrete discourse was downplayed if not utterly ignored by Allen Ginsberg and his generation," and hence Olson's earlier (and strong) connections to Concrete have largely been ignored. And loved Douglas Oliver's comments about Anglo-American relations--indeed on a major UPSWING. THEIR respect for OUR poetry at the London conference makes me think that it's about time that we pay attention to the work of the many exciting poets there--Maggie O'Sullivan, Denise Riley, Caroline Bergvall, Drew Milne, John Kinsella, Miles Champion--many others. The scene has really changed! Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:40:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Oh Henry! In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On July 31, Henry Gould wrote: >Open up any magazine advertised on >this list. You will find poems made up of inchoate jumbles of >broken syntax. I call this obscurity in a negative sense. Sure, Henry, no question. But why such a gripe? There are many _more_ magazines filled to overflowing with gibberish written in complete sentences and organized around "images." All "poetries" have their learning poets or lifelong weak ones. A few become really good and change everything. Yeats is one; Zukofsky is another. One can delight in both. This is pretty obvious, isn't it? Why be a bull, pawing the ground, fixated on a piece of cloth? > I think syntax has a lot to do with the pleasure & beauty of poetry. Yes, of course. My point was that there are _all sorts_ of syntaxes available to poetry. It's a deep and wide realm of the possible, and it's what makes poetry what it is. Painting is a bit like this too. So is music. (Isn't that miraculous?) Heaven forbid poetry become something like the refinement of a particular or preferred idea of syntax (i.e. words arranged as "complete sentences" as you say). Well, this is getting boring, isn't it Henry? To bed. Kent > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 00:24:23 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: linda russo Organization: University of Utah Subject: Re: Poetics programs, etc. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As an A/academic, it's my duty to point out that we are, perhaps, mincing terms: is the question: what does is mean to be _an_ "Academic"? or what does it mean to be "academic"? My american Heritage pocket dict. says "scholarly to the point of triviality" -- I think I AM (in most circumstances in which I find myself) scholarly to the point of triviality! ("always a critic!") I sort of like that! I'm not supposed to be employable! -- what a relief! But then that's just me with my lil ol' american heritage. Any OED-clad Academics out there? > I have never understood the claim that "avant-garde" poets are in any way > less academic than "mainstream" poets. Both (ostensible) camps guard their > traditions and canons jealously... both harbor various means of garnering > prestige (mags, prizes--c'mon that the avant-garde doesn't have lots of > book prizes and awards...).... both maintain a capacity for dogma. They (a/g & mainstream) are academic -- I agree -- if by that you mean "scholarly to the point of triviality"; but in terms of The Academy in general (in the mainstream) the a/g is "less Academic" -- less institutional -- the mainstream canon is Academic, the a/g merely "academic"? and on another note?: How many times have you heard writers (we are talking about academic poets after all) say that theory would mess them up? That they don't need theory? I've sat with a roomful of MFA/PhD students who absolutly refused to engage with Barthes because they felt semiotics wasn't important to their writing -- and yet they consistently employed patently Academic critical methodologies. Which is *more* Academic? I'm dreading the conversation even as i'm engaging in it. It has been played on this list before and I wonder if the question I ask in a previous post can't take it to another place? > The Question to Ask Now is: has bringing "innovative" poetics, > poets and poetries into the academy -- _taking_ the there (and off > the streets?) -- MADE them academic/exclusive/closed/deadened them > somehow? thought that last "academic" should read "Academic" My american Heritage pocket dict. says "scholarly to the point of triviality" -- ha ha! (thought that was pretty funny out of context) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 03:33:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: anglo-american literary relations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Very grateful to Mark Prejsnar for correcting and Bob Archambeau for adding to my remarks about the Ric Caddel, Peter Quartermain anthology of the "Other" British poetry. In my original draft of the message, I called "Other" the first full anthology of British experimental writing to be published in the US for decades. On checking, I was surprised I'd left out the word "full" during self-editing. I gladly remember the important Potes and Poets Floating Capital 1991 collection, pioneering at the time. The fine New American Writing selection of 26 new British poets was No. 8 & 9, Fall 1991, and many years before that New Directions did a mini-anthology edited by Andrew Crozier. No doubt there have been other inklings which I've forgotten, but the gist of what I said stands: it's seven years later, there isn't much about, not published in the US, and "Other" should prove to be "fuller". Bob Archambeau's plug for Billy Mills' book service very timely in these circumstances. One of the best British distributors of small press work is Peter Riley, 27 Sturton Street, Cambridge CB1 2QG, England. John Tranter is also doing a good job across the Atlantic-Pacifix axes on the Jacket website. Another possibility for firming relations: Talisman House have broken the new turf with the Jarnot/Schwartz/Stroffolino Anthology of Younger (American) Poets. Excellent start. There's a good case for a US-British (or US-British- Canadian-Australian) anthology of younger poets -- born after 1960, say -- one day soon. Then, along with "Other" we'd have a representative set of texts on the market to encourage book buying from the specialist distributors on both sides of the Atlantic, and perhaps the Pacific. When I taught workshops on the younger poetry in the US and Britain at Naropa this summer, the interest from students was remarkable. I've been fiddling myself with the idea of collecting up a set of young poet texts on these lines for proposal to a publisher but have concluded, sadly, that I have too many other projects on hand. This may make my suggestion sound weak -- can't be helped. But I'd be glad to be in contact with any person/ persons who did get enthused to offer what help I could. Doug Oliver ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 01:59:56 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: linda russo Organization: University of Utah Subject: Poetics/Academics/revolutions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Katy -- I think I figured out why your response bugged me > I have never understood the claim that "avant-garde" poets are in > any way less academic than "mainstream" poets. If you look at history, I think you'll understand the claim. In writing a history of women in the small press I've looked into the mimeo revolution -- to see what went on & specifically the roles individual women played. To be avant garde in the 50s-60s was to be categorically anti-academic; Small press movements spawned the work that became the New American Poetry were grassroots, anti-establishment movments, providing an alternative forum -- journals such as The Floating Bear, Yugen,"C", Beatitude, Fuck You: A Magazine of the Arts, Big Table, The Black Mountain Review, Caterpillar, Open Space, Contact, The San Francisco Review, 0 to 9, The World &c &c -- in NY, SF, Black Mt, and Chicago. Many editors fought obscenity charges (Diane DiPrima has an amazing anecdote about taking on the FBI, LeRoi Jones single handedly taking on the supreme court) that the academy as a matter of course complied with. For example, Academy pressure over obscenity charges wagered against the _Chicago Review_ caused it's editors to go anti-establishment -- literally, the editors quit their academic editing posts and began _Big Table_ so they could publish Burroughs and Ginsberg. The U of C had pressured them to stop publishing because a Chicago newspaper journalist accused the Chicago Review of publishing "filth" !!! Until these presses and little magazines began, there were only "academic quarterlies" to publish in. Yes, Ginsberg and Burroughs are canonized, the a/g has all the fixins on their plates too. Yes, both the the "a/g" (whatever that is) and the mainstream are "in" the academy. So I repeat my Q: what now? What does this mean for the a/g, for innovative poetry, to "be" "academic"? -- it's lonely on this list at 2 am! It must be nearly lunchtime for Douglas Oliver!! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 02:48:08 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Poetics/Academics/revolutions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Linda Russo writes: So I repeat my Q: what now? >What does this mean for the a/g, for innovative poetry, to "be" >"academic"? a/g re:culture Hugh Steinberg ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:16:25 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Re: anglo-american literary relations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Doug Oliver's list of things to check out, if you do check out me and Sub Voicive Poetry - and there is a distinction - then do also check out Miles Champion and One in the Other reading series. Miles, too, is separate from the series and he is *well *worth knowing as a poet... as a person too Lawrence Upton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:19:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Shoptaw III Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit For me, the chief virtue of Shoptaw's work is that he has made previously inaccessible poems available to close reading without entirely normalizing their strangeness. His analyses of _The Tennis Court Oath_ in several articles are, I think, unsurpassed. Not too long ago however Mark Wallace defended Steve Evans (against Henry Gould?) for Evan's somewhat oblique -- though, brilliant, apology -- of poetic innovation by arguing that close readings are ephemeral stuff -- an attitude which, since I imagine it is widespread, might explain why Shoptaw's techniques of close reading are somewhat anomolous -- hence the apparent difficulty of naming similarly oriented criticism -- though it strikes me that it is precisely new techniques of "close reading" that the current situation most urgently requires). Perhaps, in addition to Fred's question, someone might want to comment on the dynamic between the criticism being done by practicing poets (& in the last 20 years there has been a renaissance of poet/critics unmatched since the period of the New Criticism) & scholars such as Shoptaw, Perloff, Damon, Conte, etc. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:41:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i appreciate this. thanks. At 11:39 PM -0400 7/31/98, Alan Jennifer Sondheim wrote: >I'd join the academy if I could. >I'm tired of never having any money. >I'm tired of the stress always looking for the next little job. >I'm tired of being an outsider. >I'm tired of no health insurance book/travel/conference perks. >I'm tired of begging. I'm tired of insomnia. >I'm tired of no furniture, eating poorly. >I'm tired of the whole fucking thing. >I'd join in a second. >I'd join for free. > >Alan's Gang, wondering who's in and who's out at the moment. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:51:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: d.a.levy / call for papers, etc. In-Reply-To: <199807302012.NAA18654@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hey, can you tell us more about this bpNichol conference in september? dates, players, schedule, contact person etc? At 1:12 PM -0700 7/30/98, Carl Lynden Peters wrote: >this post makes my day! makes my semester! makes my year! it's great news >to hear! fantastic! d.a. levy is a great poet, and needs our >attention. i am currently working on a piece entitled _d.a. levy's >influence on bpNichol's science of the "pataphysical_, which i will >present at the Nichol conference this September. in Vancouver. so a little >bit of a plug on my part but what th hell. a d.a. levy conference is just >a wonderful idea, and it's very exciting. all th best, > >carl > >p.s. i'm still searching for levy sources, and a few of you on this list >have already been very helpful. if anyone can name any further sources or >current work on levy i wld be very grateful. th doors r open, > >c. > >> Hello Everyone: >> >> David Kirschenbaum asked me to post this: >> >> BOOGLIT #6 >> Call for submissions and papers for: >> >> 1) Booglit #6 d.a.levy issue >> pub date Dec 1, 1998 >> edit & art deadline Oct 1, 1998 >> poems, prose, memories, artwork are all welcome >> >> 2) d.a.levy conference >> We are in the planning stages of putting together a two-day levy >>conference in >> NYC Fri-Sat Dec 11-12, 1998, with readings, talks and panel discussions, >> including a reading on Fri night Dec 11, at the Poetry Project at St. Mark's >> Church. We are looking for papers relating to the following topics (although >> any and all papers and proposals will be considered): >> >> a) Mimeo revolution >> b) 1968 in American >> c) Cleveland poetry scene in the 60s >> >> Please send papers with a one page abstract. >> Please send all submissions, when possible, on disc in a word processing >> program, preferably Microsoft Word. >> All submissions should be sent to: >> >> David Kirschenbaum BOOGLIT >> P.O. Box 20531 New York, NY 10011 >> attn: d.a.levy issue (or conference) >> If you have any inquiries, contact BOOGLIT >> levy@booglit.com or (212) 330-7840 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:12:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i haven't been following this thread very closely, but want to chime in as someone who is at the end of her first year "in" the academy: tenure-track job and all that, and who was desperate to "get in"-- On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Alan Jennifer Sondheim wrote: > I'd join the academy if I could. as i said, doing so was goal/dream number one for me. > I'm tired of never having any money. i make less than anyone else i know in academia: point here: just being in doesn't mean you get paid well. plus w/ all those student loans having come due, i live hand to mouth--at a similar if not lower level as i did as a grad student. > I'm tired of the stress always looking for the next little job. at my university everyone (even tenured faculty) is issued a one-year contract. we are, in effect, glorified adjuncts. point here: being in doesn't necessarily mean you don't always work with the nagging worry at the back of yr mind that next year you may be looking for a job again. > I'm tired of being an outsider. this _feels_ better to me now, as in, i _do_ feel "inside" but this feeling doesn't really do anything for me or my career. i live and teach in a samll, rural, isolated town/university--i'm never really sure just what it is that i am "inside." going to confs and such i do get to introduce myself as dr. tangney--that is, i would if we did that kind of thing, which as we all know we don't --so--what is this inside feeling really worth? i'm not that sure. > I'm tired of no health insurance book/travel/conference perks. i teach a 4/4, i am expected to give conf papers and publish and do service. i am given minimal travel support (i got better support from my dep't as a grad student), and no release-time to write. i had intended to write all summer, but due to financial hardship i had to teach this summer (again: i made more as a grad student for summer school courses than i did this summer as a tenure-track faculty member). our helath insurance is terrible; i still haven't been able to afford the dentist. > I'm tired of begging. I'm tired of insomnia. see above. > I'm tired of no furniture, eating poorly. when i got this job i seriously considered not moving the couch i had because it was so awful and old and beat up. i'm very glad i did because as it turns out i can't even afford to get it cleaned, let alone replace it. > I'm tired of the whole fucking thing. > I'd join in a second. > I'd join for free. i'm tired of it, too. i wonder almost every day if there's enough jesus christ in me to keep at it. i believe in it, i want it, i know we need it, and i wish like hell i felt like i had enough strength and power to fight like hell to preserve and improve it. some days i do; many i don't. the days i don't are because i'm exhausted from doing what "the system" keeps me doing instead of what i know i should be doing--take for example just the issue of college profs teaching a 4/4 load: this is crazy. it makes lousy teachers of us all. but at the end of the day/week, i'm often to freaking tired to fight about it. it's classic, isn't it? keep 'em so wasted they won't complain--it's positively feudal. i don't mean to be bitter: i am trying VERY HARD not to be bitter. and i was very naive before i got "in." i thought i would have some secruity, some respect, and i thought i'd be able to get my teeth fixed and buy the kind of beer i really like. it's just not that simple. and it doesn't happen overnight. and it takes much more fight than i ever dreamed it would. i'm not ready to give up, but let's be careful not to aggrandize "in". best, shaunanne > > Alan's Gang, wondering who's in and who's out at the moment. > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:41:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: academic as in poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To me, the term "academic poetry" feeds off that use of the word "academic" to mean "nugatory," as in "oh, thats only of academic interest," or "that's academic" meaning "of no moment." In this light, a lot of poetry written outside the academies is as "academic" (to me) as a lot that is written from within academe. Theres no sense drawing a line around the universities and saying "everything within this circle is of no interest." Most of the challenging and rigorous poetry being written today in north america is being written by college professors. Some of these, its true, are only college professors _because_ of their poetry (i.e., dont have advanced degrees; were hired to teach only poetry anyway). But others followed the more common route to their posts. I think of Michael Davidson, a phenomenon in that he teaches fulltime at UCSD, publishes articles, gives papers, and has 2 scholarly books out; raises two young kids, corresponds extensively, swims daily, and is one of america's finest poets. Alson Neilsen of this List is a like wonder (exempt the kids and the daily swim).Then there's that other Dano-America, Cole Swensen, with a doctorate, teaches at Denver U, writes marvelous poetry and does extensive translation from the French. Nothing academic about them. David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 09:44:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: help re current poetries in japan, peru, chile Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If anyone has some k-edge of the current situation in these countries, where poetry is concerned, please b-c me. It will be of great help with a study I'm undertaking. Thanks in advance, David ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:11:00 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Re: postfeminist POETICS JOURNAL? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Linda, the last planned issue of PJ never appeared--this was several years ago. It's now being put out--with some of the material of the originally proposed issue as well as some newly solicited material, much of it by "younger" writers. In June Barrett said it would be out in July, so I imagine it will be out soon. There are others on this list who are also in this issue and who are probably in closer contact with Barrett and Lyn than I am this summer--who might have more details. Dodie >Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:45:22 +0000 >From: linda russo >Subject: postfeminist POETICS JOURNAL? > >[the subject line is purely whimsical] > >hey Dodie or someone -- could you clarify? What is this new PJ? >what's the story? > >> . . . the new/long-overdue Poetics Journal [which features] a talk >> [Dodie Bellamy] >> gave at New Langton Arts years ago--for an evening on Eros and Writing >> (curated by Kevin K.) . . . purposely written for a non-intellectual >> audience. . . . > >thanks. lvr ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:26:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: the purity the purity (sung to the tune of "the horror the horror") Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Please forgive me if I am repeating earlier conversation. I admit to being away, stopping poetics mail, and not going completely through the archive of the last ten days or so. But a friend just put the July 16 New York Review of Books in my hand. Therein, by some John Bayley, an article on new poetry books by Donald Hall, Frederick Seidel, J.D. McClatchy, Mark Strand, and Edward Hirsch, from which Bayley extracts such overall characterizations of poetry, and contemporary poetry, as . . . "Poets must often write to cheer themselves up, and in so doing the good ones can cheer up their readers as well." "Poetry works immediately . . . or it doesn't work at all . . . Its function must be, as Mallarme said, to give a purer meaning to our tribal language, and also a more concentrated one." "A general impression . . .: how quietly but firmly civilized much American poetry has lately been becoming. It is partly of course the influence of the campus, but, more than that, it may reflect a general nostalgia for civility and civilization as being in the end an inevitable source for poetic culture. Poetic learning in America today is worn easily, seldom irritatingly academic, but also not making apologies for any lack of vox pop elementariness. What would the founding fathers of modernism, and those who wanted with Carlos Williams a plain poetry for cats and dogs, think about these developments? How would Walt Whitman respond? With surprise? Dismay? No, I think he would have liked these poems." ________________________________________ This angers and befuddles me, as I try to imagine what constitutes this "poetic culture" and what kind of "purer meaning" is given "to our tribal language," by a poetry which is praised for being civilized, which seems to mean the same thing as not being irritating, as it collaborates with a general cultural nostalgia. I have a hard time imagining Mallarme or Whitman or Carlos Williams approving. I know the NY Rev of Books is only being itself here, but it's still disgusting. charles ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:33:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: Re: academic as in poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/98 11:37:16 AM, Bromige wrote: << Nothing academic about them."... David Except that they teach in the "academy." I agree that there should be no circles, but this is like saying Dr. "Smith" works at the hospital as a surgeon and swims on the weekends but there is nothing "doctorly" about him. It is strange how the idea of the academy makes people so defensive...drawing lines against those academic and those not...(ask anyone outside of the scholarly argument what they think about this and they will tell you anyone who is a professor is an academic...) who cares! is it what others think of the academic job or what you think? Thousands are in line to get a job as an "English Professor" to all at the Academy be happy where you are...seems like a great job... and it is what you do in there that matters... erik sweet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 10:48:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: postfeminist playground Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" your fans db up allnight fixing the fibre optics to search for yr bytes billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Yeah, I stole from the treasury of human folly I spent it all on you, baby... don't mention it Duncan McNaughton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:54:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Re: academic as in poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The interesting question isn't who's academic, who's not, or what makes an "academic," but rather what Linda asked: what's it MEAN that alternative poetries & practioners are firmly "inside" now? What's the effect of two generations of poets passing through Buffalo, or all the writers who have graduated from the New College, Naropa, San Diego, Bard & Brown and who are now writing, teaching & publishing? Certainly the terms of debate within the universities has been altered. My sense is that it's basically a postive force. We need it. Institutional tensions follow in the wake. Who will be forgotten? --cs ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:06:32 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Keith Tuma Subject: Re: the purity the purity (sung to the tune of "the horror the horror") In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980801102641.007c5a70@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles writes: >Please forgive me if I am repeating earlier conversation. I admit to being >away, stopping poetics mail, and not going completely through the archive >of the last ten days or so. > >But a friend just put the July 16 New York Review of Books in my hand. >Therein, by some John Bayley, an article on new poetry books by Donald >Hall, Frederick Seidel, J.D. McClatchy, Mark Strand, and Edward Hirsch, >from which Bayley extracts such overall characterizations of poetry, and >contemporary poetry, as . . . > "Poets must often write to cheer themselves up, and in so doing the good ones can cheer up their readers as well." Poets rust, often right to beer themselves suds, and in no doing the god ones can near sud their readers as well. "Poetry works immediately . . . or it doesn't work at all . . . Its function must be, as Mallarme said, to give a purer meaning to our tribal language, and also a more concentrated one." Poetry woks remedially. . .or it doesn't wok at all. . . Its function must be, as Marmalade said, to give pureed meaning to our tribal lunch, a more concentrated bunch. "A general impression . . .: how quietly but firmly civilized much American poetry has lately been becoming. It is partly of course the influence of the campus, but, more than that, it may reflect a general nostalgia for civility and civilization as being in the end an inevitable source for poetic culture. Poetic learning in America today is worn easily, seldom irritatingly academic, but also not making apologies for any lack of vox pop elementariness. What would the founding fathers of modernism, and those who wanted with Carlos Williams a plain poetry for cats and dogs, think about these developments? How would Walt Whitman respond? With surprise? Dismay? No, I think he would have liked these poems." A general's depression. . . : how bitely but wormly nugatory much Apparent poetry has lately been becoming becoming. It is partly a horse the frat boys camped, but, more fat, it may erect a general neuralgia for devilry and egg salad as reading in the rend inevitably hoarse for your pepsi culture. Poetic yearning in America for sale worn easily, seldom irrigated endemic, but also not making apologies for any lack of knocks dad silly. What would the floundering feathers of modernism, and those who vaunted with carloads and billions a vain poetry for rats and hogs, blink about these befuddlements? How would Malt Liquor depend? With a cry? Hooray? Blow, I think he would have spiked these poems. >________________________________________ > >This angers and befuddles me, as I try to imagine what constitutes this >"poetic culture" and what kind of "purer meaning" is given "to our tribal >language," by a poetry which is praised for being civilized, which seems to >mean the same thing as not being irritating, as it collaborates with a >general cultural nostalgia. > >I have a hard time imagining Mallarme or Whitman or Carlos Williams >approving. > >I know the NY Rev of Books is only being itself here, but it's still >disgusting. > > >charles Not to deny the seriousness of the matter, KT ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:49:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: the purity the purity (sung to the tune of "the horror the horror") In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Keith, I thought your response to those NY Review quotes was perfect. thanks, charles ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:49:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: academic as in poetry In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Regarding Erik Sweet's comment on the academic, the history of which (David Bromige post) I haven't followed: In Chicago in the 1980s, when the performance poetry scene was booming, I suddenly found myself framed (by Marc Smith) as an academic because I taught at Columbia College Chicago. When reporters from The Smithsonian and Wall Street Journal called to ask what I thought of the slam phenomenon, I would talk at length about its history, in Chicago and elsewhere, and make a claim for myself as "non-academic." But the reporters wanted soundbites, which I didn't know how to construct, and concluded that since I taught at a college I must therefore be an academic. I said that the slams seemed to me (Baraka said so, too) a relentless capitalization of the popularity of "voice"; that it represented the triumph of mass-media-ready poetry at the expense of text; and that it generally lacked the kind of political critique to be found in Ginsberg, Baraka, Rothenberg, and Waldman, among others. The reporters would use my most negative statements to frame me as the disapproving professor/bete noire needed to make the story dramatic. But of course there are numerous "academic" poets, by which we mean those who employ the received idiom, who do not teach. Because there are only 250 creative writing programs in the country, these poets are in the majority. Both language poetry and performance poetry have been assimilated to an extent by academic and broader cultural interests. Because we are a culture that values indeterminacy, risk-taking (especially with capital), the "new" is prized. But most poets like to operate on safe ground. They wait until an idiom has general acceptance and then leap in. It's the second wave that often gets the most attention. Pound to Eliot: "I'll break down the door, you take out all the swag." It is possible to be avant-garde and also academic; to be mainstream and also non-academic. True or false: (1) Bad art is central to the concept of pleasure; (2)Transgression is always sentimental; (3) Disjuncture heals all wounds. --Paul Hoover ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:03:20 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Authenticated sender is From: linda russo Organization: University of Utah Subject: Re: academic as in poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM > The interesting question isn't who's academic, who's not, or what makes an > "academic," but rather what Linda asked: what's it MEAN that alternative > poetries & practioners are firmly "inside" now? What's the effect of two > generations of poets passing through Buffalo, or all the writers who have > graduated from the New College, Naropa, San Diego, Bard & Brown and who are > now writing, teaching & publishing? Certainly the terms of debate within the > universities has been altered. My sense is that it's basically a postive > force. We need it. Institutional tensions follow in the wake. Who will be > forgotten? Yes. Or as Notley asks (out of her awareness of writing as a woman) "what are we leaving out now? It might also be fruitful to read the academic ensconcement of the a/g as somewhat inevitable, (Black Mountain for example) a direct result of the mimeo revolution and the proliferation of small press poetic materials -- inevitably archived for ("academic") study. (if you haven't already, you might want to see my Poetics/Academics/Revolution post) what emerges is a confluence rather than an influence -- studying different sorts of poetries demands different theoretical/essayistic apparatuses -- "changes" what it means to be A/acadmic. And so not to be apologists, not to "scurry from the margins" but to SIEZE the STRUCTURE (the Academy) and WRENCH OR BREAK its FRAMES jeez this is like dealing with being a woman poet all over again so Yes, the imporance of remembering can't be stressed enough -- An interesting confluence in the increasing amount of women small poet-editors and the increasing importance of contemporary production by women -- poets like Hejinian, Scalapino, Harryman, Waldrop, Fraser, Dahlen, DuPlessis, Notley, Waldman, Mayer &c&c -- might be less known had they not endeavored to create the materials (little magazines/books) that all of us now turn to in defining our traditions. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 14:54:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit shaunanne, eric, charles, alan, &c, first, thanks to shaunanne for your academic example. it resonates. it isn't so simple as being happy to be 'in' because this seems like a good job, i don't think -- after a decade of university (a decade of no salary to speak of) and tens of thousands in debt, it doesn't seem that tremendous to be making what a good administrative assistant would be making at any number of strong businesses i can think of. so there's that. more problematic for me is the much-talk-of corporatization of the university. that has made faculty (mainly of course younger, non-star-class) less important in the university structure. more painfully (and as i've also seen discussed), it is making students feel more like consumers, as if they needed more excuses to resent the degree-conferring power of institutions. as for the effect of practising writers in the academy, i can't generalize -- right now it seems their influence is scattered, though presumably it exerts some centripetal force toward whatever we imagine the academic center of america to be. when i was an educational advisor in yemen, i used to tell aspiring middle eastern students that there were upwards of 2500 institutions of higher education in the states. but back here it seems we're almost always talking only of conditions and definitions in about 100 schools. i'm happy to be 'in,' then, but it's difficult, and not least because of having to negotiate the very ideals -- ideals that are necessarily compromised because institutions are institutionalizing -- that make being 'in' seem so attractive from 'outside'. lisa samuels ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 11:53:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: academic as in poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" in my pea brain i always hear moot as the echo of academic, i.e., everybody knows that, who cares? i never thought of creeley as academic, electric would be the antonymn, creeley is electric, academic is sherlock holmes elementary, scholarship is closer to obsession than academic, love writ large on an subject/field billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Yeah, I stole from the treasury of human folly I spent it all on you, baby... don't mention it Duncan McNaughton ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 13:17:07 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: help w/ djuna barnes In-Reply-To: <199808011853.MAA10562@gos.oz.cc.utah.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII can anyone help me out with a bit of digging about?- trying to find out what happened to the work-in-progress found in djuna barnes apt when she died? (according to shari benstock, a poem she had been working on for thirty years) - or point me in the direction of barnes' papers, etc - or even just carolyn burke's address thanks rd ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 12:26:40 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: the war room Content-Type: text/plain The title is "Duel." But I don't want a pineapple. --Mark DuCharme Bill Luoma wrote: > >Todd, yes, but you left out his best film. Starring Dennis Weaver. > >I'll send anyone a pineapple who can come up with the title. > >I've always wanted to write a treatise about that movie and Killdozer. > >Bill Luoma > ><< >-------------------------------------- >Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 20:20:42 +0000 >From: toddbaron >Subject: the war room > >I must say: the discussion on Spielberg seems way out of line for the >list. >Not that I'm suggesting a censor --or trying to stop the discussion--but >the man as an artist isn't! He rewrites history in a clumsy albeit >monetary way--see Schindler's List--see that he is in the habit of >recreating a Heroic mythology--a cartoon strip--and has been quoted as >saying that "the great war movies of the 40's inspired (him)" Let's see > >a film about a shark (which he had to be pushed into doing) >a film about an alien (a boyhood idea stolen really from Geroge Lucas) >another film about aliens (WOW!) >a film about the ATlantic Slave Trade (he was SUED for this one!) >a film > a film > a film? > >WHOOPS--I meant "movie"! > >Spillberg (no typo) HAS destroyed the film industry--he won that war! >The great films of the 60s and 70s he single handedly destroyed when he >found out he couldn't make one! (No "humanity" or "personality" in his >films! Read RAGING BULLS and EASY RIDERS! His first film was THE >SUGERLAND EXPRESS--trying to be Altman, trying to be Scorsessem etc!) He >was raised on TV for god's sake! The big MACHINERY he p[roduced--the >studio he saved (UNIVERSAL) they both overtook the great films of Hal >Asbhy (Harold and Maude, Shampoo, etc--films that made money!), Altman, >Scorsesee(his great films hardly were released! Yup--Taxi Driver did not >make the man wealthy!) Even Coppola (and left him a rather commercial >idiot I maight say--from Godfather and Apocylypse NOW (a GREAT "war" >movie--a movie that took a war into the lens--to "Jack" and >.........) > >Phew. > >Hey..I guess this is fun! > >Back to the poem......... > > >What about poetic Heroes anyway--like Spicer? > >Todd Baron >(ReMap)>> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:16:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: Re: academic as in poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/1/98 1:51:09 PM, Hoover wrote: <> Hoover, and to all: I thought it obvious that to be all that is stated above is not a one sided endeavor...the question of mainstream has always bothered me. In music, art, government the mainstream has always been defined as reaching the masses or manipulated and argued through the public presses. Mainstream I believe is a concept, an idea that is in flux. There is as Hoover states, a mainstream of the non-academic or avante-garde, i.e. I would say... Naropa etc..something that is pretty well known through media via Ginsberg, Kerouac... and which holds to a tradition of avante-garde or non-academic? poetical style. Naropa is good, the more that know of it...only the better things can be. Academic as a "notion" means so many things to so many people... is at core a good force, it means scholarship, discussion..and whatever "frame" people want to put around it (good, bad) it will always mean possibilty and growth to me, whether it is T.S. Eliot's disciples or some language poetry influenced young poet teaching... erik sweet ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 16:02:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Two new books I've read Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two new books appeared on my desk this week, both short little books and very worth your while. The first was "Addenda," by Susan M. Schultz, a handsome little book from Joel Kuszai's estimable Meow Press. Schultz read the last part of "Addenda" at a reading here on Sunday in San Francisco; it's sparked with inane quotations allegedly from supermodels, "Once I got over my anger at my mother, I became adept at volleyball, and modelling," says Gabrielle Reece. Schultz uses these promising materials to produce her own meditations on excellence, generation roles, the look of the page and poem, the extension of poetic technique into blocks of pure prose. The other book is "Not Right Now," by Renee Gladman, from Second Story Books, a Proliferation Imprint. This book, promises editor Mary Burger, is the first in a series of "New Narrativist" books of prose written by poets--poets exploring prose as one might wander through a new continent. I have long admired Gladman's work, and here in San Francisco we know her as a fascinating poet, but until recently her reputation has been a local one (though she appears in the Talisman anthology of "New (American) Poets"). "Not Right Now" is a kind of reduction/recut of Kerouac's "Subterraneans," glistening at its essence, asking the question, what would happen if San Francisco's Mission District were a kind of sexual, interracial beat bohemia, with a young, black, short, mustached Lesbian at its center? "The day I was no longer a transcriber, I decided to be a weight historian. To go out and find things as they lie and then write a book about them." Both these books will in time I guess be available at Small Press Distribution, but Mary Burger who published "Not Right Now" is reachable through e-mail at mburger@adobe.com. I forgot to say how beautifully designed these books are, whatever happened to the days when nine times out of ten the poetry you wanted to read was bound in those execrable covers that made a cat wince. Thanks everyone! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 17:15:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Re: crabby bull Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry Gould wrote: I read Nabokov (in high school) & Mandelstam (in my 20s) just for relief Say Hank, How about "the crabby elitist ego-noise of Henry Gould" Affectionately, P. "Bull Roar" B. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:37:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: anglo/amer yeatspound and pounding yeats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The recent disjunctive synthesizing dichotomy discourses here raise a couple of questions for me: 1. Is it not possible (nay, even desirable) to begin with disjunction and move to synthesis? 2. If there is disjunction in the world (e.g., WWI, WWII, WWWIII) is it ________ to not account for it in synthesizing? ______ a. foolishness b. cheerful c. pure of heart d. all of the above ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:44:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: crabby bull Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I was even suspended for reading _Lolita in class, and I'm not sure whether Osip in Russian would be classified as a follower of Yeats or Pound, or someone who didn't care one way or the other. It seems to me that perhaps the Yeatspound split and the Anglo/American split/ reunion may be missing some other lits/langs? yom bell At 05:15 PM 8/1/98 -0700, you wrote: > Henry Gould wrote: > I read Nabokov (in high school) & Mandelstam (in my 20s) just for > relief > > Say Hank, > How about "the crabby elitist ego-noise of Henry Gould" > > Affectionately, > P. "Bull Roar" B. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 18:09:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: John Yau's MY SYMPTOMS In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I had to look up the comment of mine that triggered Chris'apparently annoyed response "I do not grant Mark Weiss the authority I grant you in this matter, since I am more suspicious of a male judging another male as sexist." Here's the entirety of what I said: "This (the Yau) is shockingly cliched." This was a gut reaction to the quality of the writing, not the morality or politics. I have no idea where Yau stands on these matters or how he gets along with his wife. Some years ago I dated a woman named Laurie Lewin (her nom de plume--her name de danse was Lolita) who had been a stripper until shortly before our relationship. She wrote a pretty good insider's look at the world of stripping (although the publisher insisted that what had been in its first draft an autobiographical and theoretical discussion and a series of oral histories be recast novelistically). Wish I could give a better reference--it was from a major press and should be out there somewhere. She speaks, I think, with some authority. Her motivations and those of the other dancers were, as I remember, extremely complex. It would be interesting, Chris, if you could do so non-combattively, to hear an explanation of why you are suspicious of males judging males as sexist. Are there other categories to be aware of? Or are you just defending a friend's writing? I'd also like to know where you got your authority-granting privileges--I could use some of those myself. At 10:04 AM 7/31/98 -0400, you wrote: > Thanks, Karen Kelley, for your reponse....Well, spilling it (or > stripping it--since strippers are artists), I have many responses-- > only some of which I can touch on here. One would be to ask you how > YOU would represent what goes on in the mind of a stripper (or > to direct me to work of yours that deals with this).... > Another response would be to agree with you (up to a point): > Let's say that--in the particular passages you quote--that Yau > is probably closer to what men think women are than to the > actuality of a woman who may strip her clothes but yet not > "Spill it" (her mind). But, if you look at the entire book > (in which there are a variety of female characters, some as "I" > and some as "she"), or even if you look at this particular piece > in question IN ITS ENTIRETY, you might find that at least Yau is > self-conscious (and meta) enough to admit this possibility (even > the choice of title of the book, MY SYMPTOMS, calls attention to > the possibility that the female speaker is a "masked male" etc... > (a la Shakespeare).... > I wonder if women who represent male characters in ways that might > seem "stereotypical" or "derogatory" (or "positively" even) have the > same problem (I'm not saying that I don't like reading such writing > by the way: I learn much from it). Certainly not every woman writer > is as extreme as Jane Austen who never had a scene in which two male > characters appear without any women in the the scene (because she > only wrote "what she knew"), nor am I suggesting they should do so.... > > I don't know enough about how dancers are "stereotyped" to comment > on whether Yau is, in fact, doing it. In my experience (admittedly > little) with strippers, the "stereotype about strippers" is "we only > do it for the money. We get little or no intrinsic thrill out of > exhibitionism, and we certainly see it more as humiliation than as > any kind of 'grrrl power' over men." And in this particular story > (which is good, but not--in my opinion, one of the best pieces in > MY SYMPTOMS--I say this by way of "sales pitch" I guess), Yau goes > very much against THAT stereotype, and yet elsewhere in MY SYMPTOMS > he sympathetically portrays a woman who "had been a model, it was > her boyfriend's idea. He brought her to New York when she was 17 > and finally pushed her up the stairs the agency, even though she had > been crying non-stop for two days."(120). So, I think we see a range > here of attitudes towards female exhibitionism rather than an AGENDA > proferring "proper" female roles. And if both these characters-- > taken alone--may run the risk of becoming "stereotypes," I believe > that by offering a range, these "stereotypes" cancel each other out > (again, like Shakespeare presenting both a Beatrice and a Hero in > the same play for instance--so the "truth" can be somewhere "in > between" for a wider range of readers...)... > > Besides, you take OUT OF CONTEXT a few quotes that all occur near > the beginning (in the first 2 pages) of an 8 page story. In "Butcher, > Baker..." the woman is only a stripper for the first two pages. Later > on, the woman character, an EX-stripper, single-mother, is expressing > her attraction to firemen, and raises all these doubts about her > motivations: "i don't know why I have this thing about firemen, but > I do...maybe it's because I think in metaphors and I should learn to > think some other way..." (Yau himself a metaphorical thinker, going > against the traditional anti-metaphorical prejudice that linked > metaphor and women, in Locke, in Renaissance Rhetoricians like > Puttenham, etc., though nowadays some claim it's a feminist argument > to argue AGAINST metaphor....blah blah). > Now, I see what happens here as an inversion of an "archetypal" > stereotype here....the traditional linkage of women with water > and men with fire (as in LYSISTRATA, another man putting words in > the mouth of a woman, or in Jagger's "She's So Cold" for instance) > and then, and I think this also goes beyond stereotype, the female > character starts expressing a desire for a FIREWOMAN. There's both > an unstereotypical lesbian dimension here, as well a desire on the > character's part to BECOME a firewoman ("a woman who fights fires. > They have to give her her due and treat her like a man. She's on > the line with them..."), > so this woman character tries on quite a few "non-traditional" roles > in the course of this piece. This piece is --on one level--about > whether identity is contingent not only on gender (or sex), but also > one ones choice of profession (a la Harryman). And I am curious what > you, Karen kelley, have to say about this (though I do not grant Mark > Weiss the authority I grant you in this matter, since I am more > suspicious of a male judging another male as sexist,) and I have more > to say on this (but will save it for the longish essay I want to > write on this book--if I can find a publisher who will make room > for my logorrhea), but wanted to express some of these points here > in this forum, in the interest of dialogue.... > Again, thanks, for responding....... > Chris Stroffolino > >On Mon, 27 Jul 1998, Karen Kelley wrote: > >> Hi Chris, >> >> Good call: it IS "Butcher, Baker..." >> >> "I'm a dancer who makes men spin in their graves, gets them to yell 'bay bee,' >> whisper 'gosh' and 'honey,' and dream of 'whoopee.'" >> >> "Fate got warm with me, dealt me a flush. So I'm packaged right for the job. I have >> an easygoing, cornstalk smile; I'm tall and tilted just enough so short guys don't >> have to crane their little necks and hurt themselves. I can crouch and rise smooth as >> a wave. Twist and twirl until their brains turn to jellyfish bobbing in a beer >> bottle." >> >> "Early on I learned that men like to be swatted a little if you do it right and put >> on your girl-next-door smile while shaking your assets just beyond reach. I had tits >> and a smile that gave men cramps." >> >> This seems *extraordinarily* off-base as a representation of what a woman might think >> when contemplating male reaction to her body. Admittedly I am *one* woman among many. >> But I wonder if perhaps Yau isn't closer to what *men* *think* women think. >> >> When I first read the piece I felt guilty about finding it an amusing read when it >> was so clearly a man's idea of a woman's feelings. And as someone who's held the same >> job as the narrator, I'm aware of how routinely dancers are stereotyped. >> >> It sounds like you felt differently about the piece, Chris. C'mon, spill it. >> >> Karen >> >> >> louis stroffolino wrote: >> >> > Dave Baratier asks what "cross-gendered identification" is. >> > I guess I just meant the term simply (if loosely) to mean >> > when someone of one gender and/or sex adopts or takes on >> > the voice of someone of another gender and/or sex.... >> > I didn't say that YAU was NEW for doing that.... >> > but then "make it new" has never been much of a standard for me >> > (see Mike Magee's intro to his mag COMBO for a view I largely share) >> > >> > Karen Kelley. COuld you tell me which particular piece of Yau's was >> > in First Intensity? My hunch is you're talking about a piece called >> > BUTCHER, BAKER, or CANDLESTICK MAKER, but I'd like to know more >> > specifically before I respond....Because I'm curious about what >> > you mean by "stereotypical" and why you think the piece you read is >> > so..... >> > Thanks, chris stroffolino >> > >> > On Thu, 23 Jul 1998, Karen Kelley wrote: >> > >> > > I recently read something of Yau's in a mag--was it First Intensity? I'm >> > > sorry--I can't recall, but it was perhaps from the new book & was the narrative >> > > of a stripper & I found it rather disturbing in that the narrator was kind of >> > > dumb & angry & thought highly of her breasts (no prob with that in & of itself) >> > > & little of men in general--she was kind of a jaded line drawing of a >> > > woman--with the interior monolog of a stereotype, which I suppose is okay, >> > > though as this thread goes to show, the whole male/female or masc/fem question >> > > is much more complex than Yau's piece implied, and I guess I just felt annoyed >> > > that he was willing to throw another stereotype my way. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > louis stroffolino wrote: >> > > >> > > > Has anybody here read Yau's new Black Sparrow book? >> > > > In it, there is much "cross-gendered identification" >> > > > that---though it is written by a male--seems to, er, >> > > > "rupture patriarchal discourse" and could serve as >> > > > a complement to, say, Carla Harryman who also engages >> > > > in "cross-gendered" identification. I think Yau does >> > > > a very good job at trying to speak AS woman "other" >> > > > and negotiating the representational anxieties that >> > > > might attend the "presumption" of such a task..... >> > > > but would be very interested to hear opposing views.... >> > > > chris stroffolino >> > > > >> > > > On Wed, 22 Jul 1998, Linda Russo wrote: >> > > > >> > > > > Rah rah. >> > > > > >> > > > > I'm glad to see Safdie Joseph annoyed with the >> > > > > "position" that feminism had seemed to put Todd in (in reading the >> > > > > original post, before Todd's brilliant comeback) -- as >> > > > > an apologist. Elizabeth Treadwell makes the same point as well (though I >> > > > > have definite issues with Postfeminist Playground, for another post). >> > > > > >> > > > > I wish we could just do away with the gender essentialism which causes so >> > > > > many with physical bodies to feel they have to apologize for some >> > > > > appendage or other. I'm intrigued by the problems women (and other >> > > > > 'others') face in trying to enter the current the forums/debates etc. >> > > > > -- very material problems (as Woolf pointed out early on) rooted in >> > > > > patriarchal biases. >> > > > > >> > > > > But it's more fruitful to continue mucking things up, to keep getting >> > > > > more and more challenging writing published, to continue framing >> > > > > experiment as a rupture of "patriarchal laws" (Kristeva's argument; what >> > > > > Woolf recognized as "convention," what Bernstein has called "populist >> > > > > realism" etc) -- to recognized that oppression is at work, even that >> > > > > gender oppression is at work, but to quite calling the >> > > > > counter/re/active strategies "feminine"! or to call it feminine and stop >> > > > > stop linking this to (women's) biology! Or we all really do have the >> > > > > Anxiety of Influence -- we're all a bundle of nerves! >> > > > > >> > > > > Until we get some intelligent conversation going >> > > > > to reframe the issues (and reframe them for feminist literary scholarship) >> > > > > we're going to be beaten over the heads with said appendages. (Not that it >> > > > > isn't out there -- Judith Butler, for example -- But to what extent has it >> > > > > made its way into contemporary poetics discussions?) >> > > > > >> > > > > Todd's comeback: >> > > > > >> > > > > > being "stuck' has to do with our discussion of (bad spelling...er..) >> > > > > > gender roles and structures in poetics. If one is aware of a gender role >> > > > > > or gender model--then I believe on is "stuck" within the defintion and >> > > > > > confinement of terminology. I do not believe tho that one is punished or >> > > > > > "jailed" as in "stuck in prision..stuck in my room". The thing is that >> > > > > > "stuck" is structure--if one identifies patterns as either male or >> > > > > > female--but I agree with others when they notice that structures in >> > > > > > poetics are male--in that they derive from male poets and male >> > > > > > narratives--how else would the Epic, the sonnet, etc. have found their >> > > > > > way here--now--in their forms. Your Marxist response negates that >> > > > > > economics is gender and age (and race) based also. Very much so--are >> > > > > > structures of Marxism (poor ms. marx and his daughters) and Capitalist >> > > > > > Democracy/etc ("Free Market") based on a male pattern (baldness?) power >> > > > > > elite-thus yes economics determine us--BUT--those economics are not--are >> > > > > > not ---"impersonal economic forces..." -- >> > > > > > >> > > > > > never impersonal. >> > > > > > >> > > > > > Tb >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:51:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: Re: Susan Howe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My public library has 3 copies of Susan Howe's _Articulations of Sound Forms in Time_ published by AWEDE (Box 376 Windsor, Vermont 05089) in an edition of 1000 copies (in 1987). But now I've just recently seen it is included in _Singularities_. I don't have both versions in front of me. . . so I may be off here, but . . . This is a radical revision, isn't it? I had a more difficult time with the version in _Singularities_ (which doesn't mean that this version of Articulation of Sound Forms In Time is necessarily better or worse).I suppose I have to undercut my presumptions about what's happening, really 're-read' it, but the 1987 version seems more lyrical to me and somehow more "accessible". Since there is much recent discussion of Howe on the list, maybe some out there have comments or opinions about the original vs. revision of this poem. I suppose I should buy _Singularities_ . I've been reading it in the bookstore. Just curious. The Awede edition of AOSFIT mentioned above is the most intense experience of Howe (for me) so far. Although, a poem which appeared recently in _Conjunctions_ is an incredible poem , too. Chris ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:06:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Arthur Dove Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" For those of you who can get to LA, the just-opened Arthur Dove retrospective at the LA County will change your lives. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:26:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark W Scroggins Subject: Re: Susan Howe In-Reply-To: <19980802015148.28949.qmail@www07.netaddress.usa.net> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII And for those who want to pursue this thread, isn't the version of _Bibliography of the King's Book_ included in _Nonconformist's Memorial_ different in some really significant ways from the paradigm press edition? In this case, it seems something of a simplifying, rather than a making more difficult. Mark Scroggins On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Christian Roess wrote: > My public library has 3 copies of Susan Howe's _Articulations of Sound Forms in Time_ published by AWEDE (Box 376 Windsor, Vermont 05089) in an edition of 1000 copies (in 1987). But now I've just recently seen it is included in _Singularities_. I don't have both versions in front of me. . . so I may be off here, but . . . > > This is a radical revision, isn't it? I had a more difficult time with the version in _Singularities_ (which doesn't mean that this version of Articulation of Sound Forms In Time is necessarily better or worse).I suppose I have to undercut my presumptions about what's happening, really 're-read' it, but the 1987 version seems more lyrical to me and somehow more "accessible". > > Since there is much recent discussion of Howe on the list, maybe some out there have comments or opinions about the original vs. revision of this poem. I suppose I should buy _Singularities_ . I've been reading it in the bookstore. > > Just curious. The Awede edition of AOSFIT mentioned above is the most intense experience of Howe (for me) so far. Although, a poem which appeared recently in _Conjunctions_ is an incredible poem , too. > > Chris > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 21:27:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: call for papers, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="============_-1310115618==_============" --============_-1310115618==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >hey, can you tell us more about this bpNichol conference in september? >dates, players, schedule, contact person etc? Yep --============_-1310115618==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; name="bp_Nichol_conference"; charset="us-ascii" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="bp_Nichol_conference" Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 23:26:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: geschwitz@pop.intergate.bc.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 From: geschwitz@intergate.bc.ca (Robert Manery) Subject: bp Nichol conference On the H Orizon: bpNichol After Ten Vancouver B.C. September 25-25, 1998 West Coast Line is pleased to welcome submissions which will be considered for a tribute to the work of bpNichol at an event recognizing Nichol's achievement and continuing influence on contemporary Canadian writers. To this day, Nichol remains one of Canada's most prolific, innovative and influential writers. The conference/tribute will showcase Nichol's work and draw attention to the continuing formation of a poetics that involves a community of emerging writers and critics from across Canada. Presentations will be a maximum of 15 minutes and may consist of creative, critical, theoretical or performance work that addresses or bounces off bpNichol's poetics. Please send a brief proposal and a one page CV, including publications/performances to: West Coast Line c/o Miriam Nichols 103 - 1738 Frances Street Vancouver, B.C. V5L 1Z6 or fax 604-254-8594 Deadline for proposals: 20 July 1998 We regret that we cannot provide financial assistance. Please pass this notice to other Nichol fans. --============_-1310115618==_============ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 --============_-1310115618==_============-- ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 04:37:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: anglo-american literary relations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ah, here I am at our Parisian breakfast-time, cursing because the fusebox has struck out at my computer, Alice is prowling around wildly thinking while I use her strip plugs, and way over there Linda Russo is, at last, abed. Sweet dreams of Anglo-American literary relations, Linda! I was really glad to see Marjorie Perloff take up this important theme of cross-Atlantic relationships picking up again. On the academic-small presses thread, I'll add that Britain hasn't suddenly awoken from some dark medieval night: it may seem like that. The small press scene remained highly active from the sixties to the nineties and the "Other" anthology will show, I think, how the poets who kept active during the difficult eighties were writers of particular mettle. Lawrence Upton is right to mention the role of the young generations and Miles Champion has made an early reputation, agreed. If, as it appears from the Introduction to "Other" his work is not to be represented there, he is not alone among the younger writers, and his turn in the anthologies, it seems clear, will come. See my suggestion for a trans-Atlantic anthology of the younger work. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 04:51:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hugh Steinberg Subject: Re: Susan Howe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Check out her collected early poems, _Frame Structures_, and compare to the earlier versions: many revisions there too. There is much in her work that changes from version to version, which is wonderfully congruent to the content of her poems. Hugh Steinberg >And for those who want to pursue this thread, isn't the version of >_Bibliography of the King's Book_ included in _Nonconformist's Memorial_ >different in some really significant ways from the paradigm press edition? >In this case, it seems something of a simplifying, rather than a making >more difficult. >Mark Scroggins > >On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, Christian Roess wrote: > >> My public library has 3 copies of Susan Howe's _Articulations of Sound >>Forms in Time_ published by AWEDE (Box 376 Windsor, Vermont 05089) in an >>edition of 1000 copies (in 1987). But now I've just recently seen it is >>included in _Singularities_. I don't have both versions in front of me. . >>. so I may be off here, but . . . >> >> This is a radical revision, isn't it? I had a more difficult time with >>the version in _Singularities_ (which doesn't mean that this version of >>Articulation of Sound Forms In Time is necessarily better or worse).I >>suppose I have to undercut my presumptions about what's happening, really >>'re-read' it, but the 1987 version seems more lyrical to me and somehow >>more "accessible". >> >> Since there is much recent discussion of Howe on the list, maybe some >>out there have comments or opinions about the original vs. revision of >>this poem. I suppose I should buy _Singularities_ . I've been reading it >>in the bookstore. >> >> Just curious. The Awede edition of AOSFIT mentioned above is the most >>intense experience of Howe (for me) so far. Although, a poem which >>appeared recently in _Conjunctions_ is an incredible poem , too. >> >> Chris >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________ >> Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 07:25:18 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: call for papers, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" hey bowering this cfp lists the conference dates as sept 25-25. is that right? thanks for the info. At 9:27 PM -0700 8/1/98, George Bowering wrote: >>hey, can you tell us more about this bpNichol conference in september? >>dates, players, schedule, contact person etc? > >Yep > >Attachment converted: PB 1400CS:bp_Nichol_conference (TEXT/ttxt) (00001B37) > > > >George Bowering. > , >2499 West 37th Ave., >Vancouver, B.C., >Canada V6M 1P4 > >fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 07:44:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: fwd: new journal; please forward Comments: To: engrad-l@maroon.tc.umn.edu, englfac@maroon.tc.umn.edu In-Reply-To: <199807302012.NAA18654@fraser.sfu.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-From_: shikha@monsoonmag.com Thu Jul 30 14:59 CDT 1998 Reply-To: From: "Shikha Malaviya" To: Subject: Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:05:05 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Introducing the website of 'Monsoon,' an on-line journal of South Asian Culture and Literature, located at: http://www.monsoonmag.com Monsoon's mission is to promote a more positive understanding and appreciation of the diversity (culture, nationality, geography, etc.) that is South Asia and the South Asian Diaspora, while flooding the literary world with the most talented writers of prose and poetry as well as create a greater dialogue on issues concerning South Asia. Monsoon's first issue will debut this fall. Currently the site contains guidelines, links, contact information, a sample of what lies ahead, and other related information. We are currently accepting submissions for autobiographical sketches, essays, fiction, interviews, poetry, reviews, and translations that range from earthy to experimental. Won't you join us in making Monsoon the best on-line literary journal on the web? Send us your submissions and/or suggestions, and spread the word!!! We look forward to hearing from you soon! Shikha Malaviya Publisher/Editor ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 09:02:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Robert J. Tiess" Subject: Call for Submissions | Call for Submissions - POETFEST - Calling All Poets | POETFEST, a series of free anthologies published on the Internet, is seeking material for its upcoming collection, MEMORIES. All poets are welcome to submit. For guidelines please visit http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7101 The current collection, INSIGHTS, is also freely available for your reading enjoyment. Note: New anthologies will now be archived at Poetfest. Please share this annnouncement with your fellow poets and poetry lovers, wherever such notices are welcome. | Call for Submissions - POETFEST - Calling All Poets | - ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 13:57:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lisa Samuels Subject: beautiful =germ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit issue #2 of =the germ= just came in the mail, and like #1 it is a completely gorgeous book. many fine things in it (yes i'm in it too, but that's not the point of my praise). stunning cover art and collage works inside by joyce lightbody, poems by bernadette mayer, rod smith, ray dipalma, lisa isaacson, many others. highly recommended, not least to those who long for lovely bookness. it's great to see so many journals out -- let a thousand flowers bloom! lisa ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:19:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Marks Subject: Shoptalk In-Reply-To: <4857fdc5.35c31600@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This is in response to Jacques Debrot's comments on criticism as well as the intelligent review of Trevor Joyce's _Syzygy_ in The Irish Times. I'm interested in what people think about close readings of poetry. How can it be done, as Debrot says, "without entirely normalizing their strangeness." What is a close reading that does not do violence by killing off all possible readings except one? is not fleeting or superficial because it simply resorts to the cliched response that there are a number of interpretations and that interpretation is dependent upon the reader completing the writing? wears theory like a skin, but does not use it as a tool -- surgical, truth beam or otherwise? I suppose we all do close readings of poems that call to us. The trick is how do we *write* about these close readings. One way is to write another poem, paint a picture, compose a song, but that is not the critical response usually meant by close reading. So I ask everybody, what do they mean by close reading? or what can it mean? How can they be accomplished? Myself, I use what skills I have picked up from school (a B.A. in 1976) and my own reading (and that would be a mixture of some New Critical with the poststructural) and do as Barthes suggested: find a loose thread, pull on it and follow where it leads. Knowing, of course, that violence and superficiality will have their way with me, but trusting that the reader of my close reading will feel the scars and see through the translucent structural skins I have made. cricketlingly, Steven __________________________________________________ Steven Marks http://members.aol.com/swmarks/welcome.html __________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 10:12:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Clippinger Subject: Re: Susan Howe In-Reply-To: <19980802015148.28949.qmail@www07.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I asked Susan Howe about the differences between the original "small press" issues and the versions published in _Singularities_, to which she informed me that because of spatial constraints dictated by Wesleyan UP, she had to edit down/edit out material. I would agree that the changes certainly create further difficulties by lessoning the number of threads for the reader to follow and consider. All best, David At 09:51 PM 8/1/98 -0400, you wrote: >My public library has 3 copies of Susan Howe's _Articulations of Sound Forms in Time_ published by AWEDE (Box 376 Windsor, Vermont 05089) in an edition of 1000 copies (in 1987). But now I've just recently seen it is included in _Singularities_. I don't have both versions in front of me. . . so I may be off here, but . . . > >This is a radical revision, isn't it? I had a more difficult time with the version in _Singularities_ (which doesn't mean that this version of Articulation of Sound Forms In Time is necessarily better or worse).I suppose I have to undercut my presumptions about what's happening, really 're-read' it, but the 1987 version seems more lyrical to me and somehow more "accessible". > >Since there is much recent discussion of Howe on the list, maybe some out there have comments or opinions about the original vs. revision of this poem. I suppose I should buy _Singularities_ . I've been reading it in the bookstore. > >Just curious. The Awede edition of AOSFIT mentioned above is the most intense experience of Howe (for me) so far. Although, a poem which appeared recently in _Conjunctions_ is an incredible poem , too. > >Chris > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > David Clippinger Assistant Professor of English Penn State University 100 University Drive Monaca, PA 15061-2799 (724) 773-3884 (phone) (724) 773-3557 (fax) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + In a world where nothing is known or can be known beyond the known-to-be unspeakable, only metaphor speaks literally and literal speech, itself, is metaphor. William Bronk, "Speech Making" + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 15:42:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Huranku Ohara In-Reply-To: <199808010402.WAA27424@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh I did enjoy that one the deliberateness of it, of course... More seriously, thanks also to Karen Kelley for her contribution too; nice the way it did NOT give the expected while dancing... Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 If a city is an invention why are we not there Kathleen Fraser ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 19:56:24 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randy Prunty Subject: Re: beautiful =germ= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I too just received my copy of germ. It is mighty mighty fine. The beautifully funky cover. The Joyce Lightbody work makes me want to fly to CA and see the actual artifacts. They look fantastic. I've been reading all the poetry the last two days and have been delighting in piece after piece (including yours, Lisa Samuelson) Randy Prunty ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:00:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Randy Prunty Subject: Re: beautiful =germ= Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit oops, seems my reading should have been a little closer. the name is Samuels. Sorry Lisa Randy ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:36:43 EDT Reply-To: Irving Weiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Re: fwd: new journal; please forward MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable --- You wrote: 'Monsoon,' an on-line journal of South Asian Culture and Literature, located at: http://www.monsoonmag.com --- end of quote --- but there's no link after home page. No info. Are you interested in my English translation of Malcolm de Chazal's = prose and poetry, French language, Mauritius? Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:49:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: Re: Susan Howe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 02Aug David Clippinger writes: >I asked Susan Howe about the differences between the original "small press" >issues and the versions published in _Singularities_, to which she informed >me that because of spatial constraints dictated by Wesleyan UP, she had to >edit down/edit out material. >I would agree that the changes certainly create further difficulties by >lessoning the number of threads for the reader to follow and consider. >All best, >David David, I find myself taken aback by this bit of information. However, your comments, when juxtaposed next to those by Mark Scroggins and Hugh Steinberg, line up for some very interesting considerations, which I don't know how to voice at this particular time. I'll be re-visiting her poems again soon with this shocking bit of news in hand. I guess for a poet who, as Peter Quartermain has written, "treads borders, boundaries, dividing lines, edges, invisible meeting points" or as Michael Palmer has written , "addresses questions of disappearance and recovery, identity and absence. . .by means of a radical reevaluation of ...the nature of the text in relation to time" she has allowed her own work to disperse into these same 'meeting places', and I'm not sure what encounter is possible there. . and ... well, I could make some other arguments at this point but they would be only "subtle" rather than convincing. Thanks for this information, all. I hope to hear more. Chris ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:46:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Yeatpound In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:36:28 -0500 from On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 14:36:28 -0500 MAYHEW said: >I read Yeats now as a sort of bizarre oddball, rather than as a >high-modernist, an official role that sort of trapped him. In "a prayer >for old age" he wanted to eschew respectability in favor of madness. Is >Yeatsianism played out? Yes, to the extent he is identified with a >particular sort of aesthetic conservatism that has passed its prime. No, >if we read him somewhat differently. I love parts of Yeats and would not >oppose him to Pound completely. There are more than two sides--modernism >is more like a twelve or thirteen sided figure. To paraprhase Perloff, >Pound/Stevens/Stein/Yeats/Williams/Maiakovsky/Vallejo... whose period? Does anybody want to argue the substance of what I said? The substance was that Yeats represents - yes, Jonathan, there are other poets out there too - but Yeats represents a different approach to poetry in terms of synthesis/disjunction. Yeats is a premodernist AND a modernist: he writes poems in complete sentences, he uses "old" techniques of stanzaic development, etc. Now everybody can hop in & say "oh well hey Pound was a synthesist too blah blah"... but lest we forget, Pound wrote toward the end of the cantos, " I cannot make it cohere" and also "it coheres all right, even if my notes do not" [or something close to that anyway] and left "IT ALL COHERES" for his TRANSLATION of I believe a Euripides play... - whereas I think Yeats' attitude, reflected in his poetry, was that the lyric poem itself is a synthesis, a coherence, of rhythm, syntax, image, meaning. & my point is that this is not a harebrained oddball out-of-date concept of poetry, but is the mainstream concept of poetry. If that automatically rules it out of consideration by the poets & critics of today, I feel sorry for them. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:56:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Oh Henry! In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:40:22 -0500 from On Fri, 31 Jul 1998 23:40:22 -0500 KENT JOHNSON said: > >Sure, Henry, no question. But why such a gripe? There are many _more_ >magazines filled to overflowing with gibberish written in complete >sentences and organized around "images." All "poetries" have their >learning poets or lifelong weak ones. A few become really good and >change everything. Yeats is one; Zukofsky is another. One can delight >in both. Why should I join the other cheerleaders on this list? Why not question some of their assumptions? The fact is I think American poetry is at a sort of dead end. I know this sounds crabby & unpleasant to all the delightful poets & readers on the list. In the NY Times Bk review today there was another "mainstream" overview of the poetry situation. the author talked about the East European poets, Milosz in particular, & how they provided a counter- example of a less egocentric "confessional" poetry prevalent for so long in the US. Pinsky's book "Situation of Poetry" was cited again for its call for clear speech & narrative poetry. The whole counter-tradition, which this list supports & represents, was again invisible. Why? Oh, because of the evil capitalist market system & the establishment networks blah blah... nobody wants to consider the notion that this counter-tradition might itself be bankrupt, in part for the very reason I mentioned: the tearing apart of syntax for the sake of innovation; the use of isolated vocabulary as a kind of aesthetic private property (eg. "language poetry" - take it out of the dictionary & it's yours) as opposed to the concept of language as a whole function of "public" communication. I know the intent was to critique another style of appropriation; but appropriation is appropriation & academic enclaves are academic enclaves. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 21:16:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: call for papers, etc. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oh no. The other note on it I have trashed. You can find out for sure by wiring Roy Miki, the honcho in charge. He's addressed at miki@sfu.ca >hey bowering this cfp lists the conference dates as sept 25-25. is that >right? thanks for the info. > >At 9:27 PM -0700 8/1/98, George Bowering wrote: >>>hey, can you tell us more about this bpNichol conference in september? >>>dates, players, schedule, contact person etc? >> >>Yep >> >>Attachment converted: PB 1400CS:bp_Nichol_conference (TEXT/ttxt) (00001B37) >> >> >> >>George Bowering. >> , >>2499 West 37th Ave., >>Vancouver, B.C., >>Canada V6M 1P4 >> >>fax: 1-604-266-9000 George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 03:48:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: anglo-american literary relations Comments: To: Robert Archambeau In-Reply-To: <35C1D7EF.3C35@LFC.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII HI there, about this request, i have an irish book review that comes into my e-mail box about once a month. currently i send it to about 7 on this list. if any one else want to try it out please backchannel and i'll add you to my list. THIS IS NOT A SALE just a service i get as a part of a news weekly from galway. uncommercially yours, kevin p.s. july is still in my outbox for sample. On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Robert Archambeau wrote: > > Any suggestions for more > > contact, more mutual spreading of knowledge? > > > My only suggestion is the obvious: get your hands on the British and > Irish books. Unfortunately, this is often easier said than done from > this side of the Atlantic. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:00:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: fwd: new journal; please forward Comments: To: Irving Weiss In-Reply-To: <2820371@adam.Washcoll.EDU> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" update on monsoon magazine: X-From_: shikha@monsoonmag.com Fri Jul 31 11:50 CDT 1998 Reply-To: From: "Shikha Malaviya" To: Subject: Monsoon magazine- a few things! Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:55:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4 Just a few things... 1) Many of you visited Monsoon's site yesterday. Unfortunately, those without Java-enabled browsers installed in their computers could not access any of the links in Monsoon. The font may also have been altered for those viewing the site with a Macintosh computer or Unix-based ones. We are in the process of fixing these problems and apologize for the inconvenience this may have caused you. In the meantime, you can access the pages directly from the links provided below. http://www.monsoonmag.com/MonsoonMission.htm http://www.monsoonmag.com/guidelin.htm http://www.monsoonmag.com/sample.htm http://www.monsoonmag.com/contact.htm http://www.monsoonmag.com/links.htm 2) Please keep in mind this is Monsoon's information site. The first issue of Monsoon will debut sometime in October 1998. However, we will be adding new things almost every week, such as a South Asian writers database, a writers photo gallery, a book review section along with a 'what people are reading right now' list, and yes... a chat area/discussion group! We hope you will check back from time to time and tell us how we are doing! 3)Finally, send us your creative endeavors.... and spread the word!!! Shikha Malaviya Publisher/Editor (Shikha@monsoonmag.com) At 8:36 PM -0400 8/2/98, Irving Weiss wrote: >--- You wrote: >'Monsoon,' an on-line journal of South Asian >Culture and Literature, located at: > >http://www.monsoonmag.com > >--- end of quote --- > >but there's no link after home page. No info. > >Are you interested in my English translation of Malcolm de Chazal's prose >and poetry, French language, Mauritius? > >Irving Weiss >http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:00:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: Re: Oh Henry! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Sun, 2 Aug 98, Henry Gould writes: >Why should I join the other cheerleaders on this list? Why not question >some of their assumptions? The fact is I think American poetry is at a sort >of dead end. I know this sounds crabby & unpleasant to all the delightful >poets & readers on the list. In the NY Times Bk review today there was another >"mainstream" overview of the poetry situation. the author talked about the >East European poets, Milosz in particular, & how they provided a counter- >example of a less egocentric "confessional" poetry prevalent for so long in >the US. Pinsky's book "Situation of Poetry" was cited again for its call for >clear speech & narrative poetry. The whole counter-tradition, which this list >supports & represents, was again invisible. Why? Oh, because of the evil >capitalist market system & the establishment networks blah blah... nobody >wants to consider the notion that this counter-tradition might itself be >bankrupt, in part for the very reason I mentioned: the tearing apart of >syntax for the sake of innovation; the use of isolated vocabulary as a kind >of aesthetic private property (eg. "language poetry" - take it out of the >dictionary & it's yours) as opposed to the concept of language as a >whole function of "public" communication. I know the intent was to >critique another style of appropriation; but appropriation is appropriation >& academic enclaves are academic enclaves. > >- Henry Gould ------------------------------ I'm not sure that this list is cheerleading over here on the counter-tradition sidelines, while the mainstreamers with their cheerleaders and supporters, are suiting up on the other side. It seems like it is . And maybe most of us 'take sides' from time to time for argument's sake ( ie.,Didn't Yeats say he believed poetry is elitist, and he would make no apologies for that?) but what kind of lens are we viewing this whole 'contest' through? I am bothered by these labels and the way certain cultural assumptions are passed on 'osmotically', and the buck stops here, as much as you seem to be, but is this really what is happening? David Lehmann in the newest edition of BEST AMERICAN POETRY 1999 (Guest Editor: John Hollander) does mention Charles Bernstein and the (quote) "lively" Electronic Poetry Center. So, now what happens? Is this forgotten because no one reads the forward? Or is there someone out there now who wants to learn about poetry, and doesn't let this remark stray to far from his/her concerns? Is anyone going to read this snippet in the 'Foreward' or are they going to turn to the selection by Hollander with comments by the poets themselves in the contributor's notes? Probably the latter. Lehman also mentions Peter Gizzi in his forward, but the rest of the volume seems to contain no one on " our side". Surely some new readers will question the use of the appellation "Best" in regard to the poetry "selected" for it? Isn't this another example of 'cultural selection' to borrow Gary Taylor's use of the word? You know the argument: the so-called combatants of the Culture Wars seem to miss the point "that culture is not what was done but what is remembered." I guess that's what your point is Henry Gould(?). Is this why you say "let's question some of their assumptions."(meaning our 'side' as well ?)Amen to that. Taylor mentions somewhere in his book about how, in the 1950's, a taxi drove off with the only copy of completed typescript of the letters of John Donne, and so we are (still?) missing a complete edition of Donne's letters. Isn't that the fear you are expressing? That something is being deliberately lost and is irretrievable? Your mentioning of the Pinsky & NY T BK Rv piece suggests that our cultural memory is being deliberately repressed, or for some reason these particular arbiters of our culture believe they have in their possession the missing piece or have now located the only extant 'complete edition' (of something). Or more precisely, they don't worry about the 'missing letters', because they feel that they can already fill in the blanks themselves. Kind of giving us a wink and a nod as if to assure us that our poetry is in good hands. However, I hope something else is occurring, as it were 'underground'. Something which I just read 15 minutes ago in Taylor's Cultural Selection : "…this strategy of isolation never works. It is defeated by a linguistic paradox : when a memory is deliberately repressed, one part of the mind tells another: REMEMBER TO FORGET THIS! You can forget only if you keep remembering the order to forget, and if you keep the part of the mind giving the order from the part of the mind receiving the order. Every reiterated act of deliberate disconnection depends upon, indeed creates, another connection. Moreover, the repression will work only if the offending memory is systematically disconnected from the system to which it belongs." Another illustration of this is a clipping I saved from USA TODAY (April 21,1998), page #8D. At the top of the page in bold black letters is the headline : WHITE HOUSE'S EPIC EVENING WITH POETS LAUREATE with three pictures and stories profiling Robert Haas, Robert Pinsky, and Rita Dove. Below these 3 stories and just above a section of classified ads is an obituary notice for Octavio Paz's passing on April 19 ('titled' "Mexican stateman Octavio Paz was the world's poet). It mentions that Paz was often asked if it mattered that so few read poetry these days. He replied, "Those who do are young people, women and dissidents of all kinds : philosophical, sexual, political. It has become an art on the margins of society. It is the other voice. It lives in the catacombs, but it won't disappear." So now where is it not to forget? Chris ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:12:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Clippinger Subject: Re: Susan Howe In-Reply-To: <19980803004954.2834.qmail@www04.netaddress.usa.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I should have also mentioned that Howe discusses this issue in an interview published in _Contemporary Literature_ a few years back. Best, David At 08:49 PM 8/2/98 -0400, you wrote: > On 02Aug David Clippinger writes: > >>I asked Susan Howe about the differences between the original "small press" >>issues and the versions published in _Singularities_, to which she informed >>me that because of spatial constraints dictated by Wesleyan UP, she had to >>edit down/edit out material. > >>I would agree that the changes certainly create further difficulties by >>lessoning the number of threads for the reader to follow and consider. > >>All best, > >>David > > >David, > >I find myself taken aback by this bit of information. However, your comments, when juxtaposed next to those by Mark Scroggins and Hugh Steinberg, line up for some very interesting considerations, which I don't know how to voice at this particular time. I'll be re-visiting her poems again soon with this shocking bit of news in hand. > >I guess for a poet who, as Peter Quartermain has written, "treads borders, boundaries, dividing lines, edges, invisible meeting points" or as Michael Palmer has written , "addresses questions of disappearance and recovery, identity and absence. . .by means of a radical reevaluation of ...the nature of the text in relation to time" she has allowed her own work to disperse into these same 'meeting places', and I'm not sure what encounter is possible there. . and ... well, I could make some other arguments at this point but they would be only "subtle" rather than convincing. > >Thanks for this information, all. I hope to hear more. > >Chris > > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > David Clippinger Assistant Professor of English Penn State University 100 University Drive Monaca, PA 15061-2799 (724) 773-3884 (phone) (724) 773-3557 (fax) + + + + + + + + + + + + + + In a world where nothing is known or can be known beyond the known-to-be unspeakable, only metaphor speaks literally and literal speech, itself, is metaphor. William Bronk, "Speech Making" + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:32:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic Comments: To: Matt Kirschenbaum In-Reply-To: <199807312111.RAA12594@jefferson.village.Virginia.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Matt Kirschenbaum wrote: > The current insider/outsider discussion re the academy recalls the > "poets vs. critics" thread (and yes, if memory serves, that was one of > the actual subject lines) played out on Poetics a year or two ago. > Perhaps the cyclical resurrection of the topic is invetiable given the > proximity (or, if you excuse the academically fashionable pluralization, > the multiple proximities) this list and many of its constituents bear > towards academic institutions. But still, the appearance of this topic > always depresses me for its unavoidable ressonance with broader strains > of public anti-intellectualism: the conservative attack on the > professoriate, media attacks on the "ivory tower" (what is the origin of > that epithet, anyway?). > This is very interesting Matt.....Especially since many folks perceive the *academics* as the ones who tend to take a hard-nosed anti-intellectual stance. Now i strongly agree that a pretty shallow anti-intellectualism is a prominent feature of U.S. life and cul'chah.. But, contrary to your equation of folks outside the ivory pinnicle, with Anti-I: Who strike you as more anti-I, more opposed to new perspectives and challenging poetics, Jackson Mac Low or Helen Vendler? In large part, in the "wars" (as someone has just called 'em) that have raged since 1975 around experimental poetries, it is mostly the academics who've championed neo-babbitism, the non-academics who've been focused on the real issues... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:19:01 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Oh Henry! In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:00:15 -0400 from Lee Christian sends a thoughtful response to my grouchy generalizations. The broad-brush bashing is stupid & unfair on my part. The only reason I'm on this list is that it seems alive, it seems like that catacomb thing you quote Octavio Paz about that the NY Times Bk Rv crowd does miss. The dynamics are interesting. Pinsky, Heaney, et al. look to the eastern europeans (two of whom sadly died in the last week - M. Holub and the famous Polish poet whose name I can't come up with at the moment...) as a way out of the narcissism & pettiness of US poetry; from their position on the heights that's all there is. Meanwhile in the catacombs of the "counter-tradition" a set of stylistic paradigms are in place that set the poet firmly at one or two removes from "prosaic communication". The Yeats/Pound thing is not an attempt to narrow the range; just a means of once again raising the possibility that "innovative" poetry & experiment might be organized on a whole different set of paradigms. I'm not saying that's not already happening; what do I know? - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:40:55 +0100 Reply-To: R I Caddel Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: angling others / different tracks through the woods / longish rant Comments: To: poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Simon wrote: > Since when did we get the idea that professors > in the academy should be responsible for keeping up > with the Protean world of contemporary poetry? Interesting point, Simon: since when did we say that surgeons should be - er - boned up on the latest re the operations they perform? Vendler comes to UK and pronounces on a dearth of decent UK poets since WWII, but let's not press her to show any knowledge of the field, since she's a Great Person anyway. Edna Longley pronounces the alternatives in Irish poetry "confused", and again, she's an Expert on (selected) Irish Poetry, she ought to know, let's not question. Also, it's true that many Learned Profs and Literary Pundits in the UK would concur with both these views so, hey, let's go with the flow on this one, no point in paying for expertise and not accepting it, even if the expertise is inadequate for the subject matter upon which it pronounces. I'm assuming a level of irony in your original post, and lumbering along in a similar vein. But seriously, folks - assumptions of the unimpeachability of academic niche have contributed significantly to the sustained critical invisibility of a wide range of poetries in my part of the world (and for all I know many others) and to deny linkage between the voices of academic criticism and the supression mechanics of mainstream literary publishing is simply naive. If only Vendler and Longley (to whose bait I'm rising as Keith knew I would...) and the other canon-builders would recognise Simon's succinctly-put truth that there are "thousands of different tracks through the woods" they'd be less likely to come out with ill-informed opinions which Keith Tuma relays to us, and perhaps even, more - dare we say it - open to the possibilities which are before them. The careers of the major non-mainstream poets of UK and Ireland are marked by public ignorance and neglect. The story of Bunting's years of obscurity in his own country now needs no further telling, other than to remind folk of our long trackrecord of such neglect. Along with him come Jonathan Griffin (his poems published in the States at his death, at a time when he was practically unknown here) Brian Coffey and other "Elder Statesmen" honoured more by omission than attention. Collected Poems of poets such as Gael Turnbull and Roy Fisher have been dropped by their publishers. Paladin, an imprint which briefly pushed innovative brits into mass circulation, was taken over by Murdoch's News International, resulting in the dumping of Harwood, Raworth, and substantial selections of Allen Fisher, Bill Griffiths, Thomas A. Clark and Others. And behind them (in the sense of not having even that moment of accessibility) generations of writers as varied as Colin Simms, Ulli Freer, Geraldine Monk - all writers with honourable careers in "fugitive editions", who've existed by word-of-mouth (significant phrase for what is often a strongly oral tradition), by personal contact, and by smallscale activity. Mainstream publication and notice in the UK were and are simply closed to them, and to follow their work - from the UK or the US - takes a degree of conscious effort. (The teachers who would be interested in teaching them hadn't got texts which were readily available, and there weren't texts available because teachers weren't teaching it...) I'm tired of having these decades of inventive and responsible work ignored or swept under the carpet with one-liners from those who can't be bothered. That's not responsible academic or critical practice, and it's simply not good enough to allow it as a kind of license on the strength of somebody's work in another part of the field. Certainly the UK and Irish writers who Tuma mentions - and many more besides (the 55 featured in the forthcoming Wesleyan anthology ed. Quartermain and Caddel are not the end of the story, though they're certainly a start) - well, they deserve better. To paint the picture thus bleakly is, of course, to overlook the crucial critical exceptions - such as Jim Mays for his support of "younger" Irish poets (they're not so young anymore, but they're still "confused" according to Ms. Longley), Edwin Morgan in Glasgow, and the late Eric Mottram practically everywhere; and the stream of US academics from John Matthias to Tuma, Romana Huk and others - thanks to y'all, lights in the dark. For many of the British and Irish poets I'm talking about, the possibility of open readers in the US has been a lifesaver over the years, a feeling that we weren't alone and weren't as eccentric as our posh neighbours proclaimed us. Thanks to anyone who'll help bring the range of "britpo" into the daylight and make it less possible for the Vendlers and Longleys and the critical squirearchy of the UK to make their sweeping and inaccurate statements from on high. Phew. Hrumph. Thankyou. ___________________________________________________________ Richard Caddel Durham University Library, Stockton Rd., Durham DH1 3LY, UK E-mail: R.I.Caddel@durham.ac.uk Phone: +44 (0)191 374 3044 Fax: +44 (0)191 374 7481 WWW: http://www.dur.ac.uk/~dul0ric "Words! Pens are too light. Take a chisel to write." - Basil Bunting ___________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 03:26:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >In large part, in the "wars" (as someone has just called 'em) that have >raged since 1975 around experimental poetries, it is mostly the academics >who've championed neo-babbitism, the non-academics who've been focused on >the real issues... just a note -- I'm interested in your dating these wars as "since 1975," particularly as I remember a poet grad student at U-Wisconsin, but from Texas, in the early '80's, who at the time it seemed was being groomed by Wisc. poet Ron Wallace. When arguing with this poet about these very experimental/academic issues, his take on it at the time was that these wars had been fought quite a few years before, and the "experimentalists" had lost, so why are we talking about these things any more? Yes, talk about a failure to communicate . . . but seriously -- any particular reason why 1975 sticks out to you as the beginning of these raging wars? charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 1 Aug 1998, ShaunAnne Tangney Humanities wrote: > > i make less than anyone else i know in academia: point here: just being in > doesn't mean you get paid well. plus w/ all those student loans having > come due, i live hand to mouth--at a similar if not lower level as i did > as a grad student. > > > > I'm tired of the stress always looking for the next little job. > > at my university everyone (even tenured faculty) is issued a one-year > contract. we are, in effect, glorified adjuncts. point here: being in > doesn't necessarily mean you don't always work with the nagging worry at > the back of yr mind that next year you may be looking for a job again. > Yup....As i hope everyone knows by now, the situation of academics has been stomped on so hard, and without sufficient resistence, that they are truly reaching a level of proletarianization....It ain't a figure of speech. (I hasten to add that the lack of sufficient resistence reflects the state of class struggle overall, and isn't the fault especially of folks in academe alone. You might blame developments in the steel and auto industries, in fact, for selling down the river the chance at a strong working class decades ago..Without a true labor movement in society as a whole any one sector is vulnerable) A related point: there are disturbing hints in a number of recent posts that people are moving the discussion of "academics" into an *essentialist* model: as if the issue were that there's something *wrong* with being an academic. The only useful issue here is an *empirical-sociological* one. Is the site of innovative poetries still outside academe, as it once was (during the NAP '50s and the Lang 70s, as so well pointed out by Linda) or is it mostly inside (as avowed by Bob G's notorious coinage "acadominent") or what? I think the answer is, "or what." That is, the situation is fairly tangled. Mark P. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:16:37 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: from "Mark Prejsnar" at Aug 3, 98 10:32:55 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Prejsnar: > On Fri, 31 Jul 1998, Matt Kirschenbaum wrote: > > > The current insider/outsider discussion re the academy recalls the > > "poets vs. critics" thread (and yes, if memory serves, that was one of > > the actual subject lines) played out on Poetics a year or two ago. > > Perhaps the cyclical resurrection of the topic is invetiable given the > > proximity (or, if you excuse the academically fashionable pluralization, > > the multiple proximities) this list and many of its constituents bear > > towards academic institutions. But still, the appearance of this topic > > always depresses me for its unavoidable ressonance with broader strains > > of public anti-intellectualism: the conservative attack on the > > professoriate, media attacks on the "ivory tower" (what is the origin of > > that epithet, anyway?). > > > > This is very interesting Matt.....Especially since many folks perceive the > *academics* as the ones who tend to take a hard-nosed anti-intellectual > stance. Now i strongly agree that a pretty shallow anti-intellectualism > is a prominent feature of U.S. life and cul'chah.. > > But, contrary to your equation of folks outside the ivory pinnicle, with > Anti-I: Mark, all of this strikes me as a pretty heavy-handed reading of my original post, which makes no such equation, certainly not by way of the "folk" (a word you use twice and which I didn't use at all). > Who strike you as more anti-I, more opposed to new perspectives and > challenging poetics, Jackson Mac Low or Helen Vendler? > > In large part, in the "wars" (as someone has just called 'em) that have > raged since 1975 around experimental poetries, it is mostly the academics > who've championed neo-babbitism, the non-academics who've been focused on > the real issues... I suppose, but that was hardly the context for what I wrote about public perceptions of the academy today, and the material consequences of those perceptions at the level of funding for public universities. Matt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:30:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Byrd Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980802032641.006aa998@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:26 AM 8/2/1998 -0700, Charles Alexander wrote: >Wisc. poet Ron Wallace. When arguing with this poet about these very >experimental/academic issues, his take on it at the time was that these >wars had been fought quite a few years before, and the "experimentalists" >had lost, so why are we talking about these things any more? > >Yes, talk about a failure to communicate . . . > >but seriously -- any particular reason why 1975 sticks out to you as the >beginning of these raging wars? > And, when I left graduate school in 1971 with my dissertation on Charles Olson in hand, I believed that these issue had been fought out during the previous decade, since the publication of the Allen anthology, and that the experimentalists had decisively _won_. And we had won, intellectually. At least one of the problems with this victory was that the "institutions" remained firmly in the hands of the traditionalists. The Creative Writing Programs were almost exclusively in the hands of Iowa Writer's Workshop types (who had 25 years of tenure left), as were the well-funded, university-sponsored magazines, the university press poetry editorships, the prize-conferring committees, and the granting institutions. For a few years, when David Wilke was the head of the NEA lit division, it looked like that at least part of that might change, but, alas! Reagan,etc. (Even corporate sponsorship is likely less treacherous than government sponsorship...). Don ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:33:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980802032641.006aa998@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Of course the war in question goes back to the end of WW 2, with a major public battle fought over Howl when it first went public and again when it was published. At 03:26 AM 8/2/98 -0700, you wrote: >>In large part, in the "wars" (as someone has just called 'em) that have >>raged since 1975 around experimental poetries, it is mostly the academics >>who've championed neo-babbitism, the non-academics who've been focused on >>the real issues... > >just a note -- I'm interested in your dating these wars as "since 1975," >particularly as I remember a poet grad student at U-Wisconsin, but from >Texas, in the early '80's, who at the time it seemed was being groomed by >Wisc. poet Ron Wallace. When arguing with this poet about these very >experimental/academic issues, his take on it at the time was that these >wars had been fought quite a few years before, and the "experimentalists" >had lost, so why are we talking about these things any more? > >Yes, talk about a failure to communicate . . . > >but seriously -- any particular reason why 1975 sticks out to you as the >beginning of these raging wars? > >charles > > >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 04:11:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: <199808031529.LAA22523@mail-atm.nycap.rr.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >For a few years, when David Wilke was the head of the NEA lit division, it >looked >like that at least part of that might change, but, alas! Reagan,etc. > > Don Yes, at the time David Wilk left the NEA I had just started a press, and had, directly through David's urging, applied for a first NEA press editor's grant and received it -- at the time such things could even be done without non-profit status for the press, if applying as an individual editor. I remember David stated that if Reagan was elected, he would quit. At the time that move seemed wise, perhaps even an important statement. But in retrospect, I wish David had stayed there a while longer -- not that things wouldn't have eventually changed, with advent of Reaganism, rise of religious right, etc. charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 04:13:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19980803083333.00c8f88c@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:33 AM 8/3/98 -0700, you wrote: >Of course the war in question goes back to the end of WW 2, with a major >public battle fought over Howl when it first went public and again when it >was published. or further. I remember one older professor who, as late as the early 1980's, was claiming that Ezra Pound brought on the death of poetry. c charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:42:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Franco Subject: Re: - Henry Gould Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-08-03 00:04:01 EDT, you write: << In the NY Times Bk review today there . . .The whole counter-tradition, which this list supports & represents, was again invisible. Henry it strikes me that so long as your looking to the NYT BK Review for authentication you are going to feel that poetry is at a dead end. . . re Pinsky... he writes what he writes -his view- which I do not necessarily share . . . but having worked with him a bit editing poetry submissions... there are few people that I know that are as clean in their approach to each poem as he is> He always took the submission on its terms -not his- & in ways that far exceeded those of the other panel members -myself included- who all had an agenda of what poetry they thought most vital for the mag. Kent is quite right in his brief assessment & i would add that if you address yourself to fools & people out there scrambling to make money [cf TNYTBR] (as opposed to addressing those trying to release something in/from Language ... (a continual search... & a real tradition -not a trend- ) you will have to suffer the discourse that they are willing to have ie what # are the best seller list are you??? all best Michael Franco ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:57:36 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Oh Henry! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ~The fact is I think American poetry is at a sort of dead end. I agree with you on this Henry & set the tone aside. It seems there is a lack of poets investing their time in terms of knowledge and willingness to share their understandings with others. Perhaps the absence of investment is why I hear of so many writers who, after they go to university to seek out a mentor, leave writing programs severely disappointed. My favorite poets invest partly to protect the people against fraudulent activity and consequent impoverishment, partly to innocuate the people against cults and all forms of conditioning, and partly to bring the advantages of the poetic enterprise to the people who can most benefit from them. Similarly, people who contribute to poets and publishing ventures help to prevent things from getting worse on a sociological basis: they make it impossible for things to ever be as biased again. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:03:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On August 1st, Henry Gould wrote: Why should I join the other cheerleaders on this list? Why not question some of their assumptions? The fact is I think American poetry is at a sort of dead end. I know this sounds crabby & unpleasant to all the delightful poets & readers on the list. In the NY Times Bk review today there was another "mainstream" overview of the poetry situation. the author talked about the East European poets, Milosz in particular, & how they provided a counter- example of a less egocentric "confessional" poetry prevalent for so long in the US. Pinsky's book "Situation of Poetry" was cited again for its call for clear speech & narrative poetry. The whole counter-tradition, which this list supports & represents, was again invisible. Why? Oh, because of the evil capitalist market system & the establishment networks blah blah... nobody wants to consider the notion that this counter-tradition might itself be bankrupt, in part for the very reason I mentioned: the tearing apart of syntax for the sake of innovation; the use of isolated vocabulary as a kind of aesthetic private property (eg. "language poetry" - take it out of the dictionary & it's yours) as opposed to the concept of language as a whole function of "public" communication. I know the intent was to critique another style of appropriation; but appropriation is appropriation & academic enclaves are academic enclaves. - Henry Gould Henry, I'm trying to follow your argument and I'm wondering if you'd be willing to clarify what you mean by "...the intent was to critique another style of appropriation..." Who was doing the critiquing and what style of appropriation are you referring to? I think you've raised something important here and I want to be able to better understand what you're saying. Did you mean that Langpo was critiquing capitalist "appropriation" but only replaced it with another form of appropriation, aesthetic rather than economic? Or am I way off? Peter ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:00:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Pecqueur" Subject: computer generated text (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I remember this thread spinning out recently as I was struggling with Mina Loy's idea of a monopattern--Is it patterned or is it solid? Could anyone with a more tightly wound knowledge backchannel me some site info I could pass along to a fellow worker. Garcias Jean-Paul ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 20:23:05 PDT From: Jason Whitmarsh To: jpecqueu@u.washington.edu Subject: computer generated text JP: You know of any website where I can get the Travesty (or equivalent) program for f...ing with, computer-wise, my writing? I looked through EPC and couldn't find much. J. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:54:58 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: - Henry Gould In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:42:57 EDT from On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:42:57 EDT Michael Franco said: > >Henry it strikes me that so long as your looking to the NYT BK Review for >authentication you are going to feel that poetry is at a dead end. . . > >re Pinsky... he writes what he writes -his view- which I do not necessarily >share >. . . but having worked with him a bit editing poetry submissions... there are >few people that I know that are as clean in their approach to each poem as he >is> He always took the submission on its terms -not his- & in ways that far >exceeded those of the other panel members -myself included- who all had an >agenda of what poetry they thought most vital for the mag. > >Kent is quite right in his brief assessment & i would add that if you address >yourself to fools & people out there scrambling to make money [cf TNYTBR] (as >opposed to addressing those trying to release something in/from Language ... >(a continual search... & a real tradition -not a trend- ) you will have to >suffer the discourse that they are willing to have ie what # are the best >seller list are you??? I wasn't quoting Pinsky to criticize him, rather to suggest that some of the ideas in "Situation of Poetry" still make sense. There are a lot of ways to deal with the myopia of mainstream press about poetry. Most of them have been tried here on the list - jeremiads, dismissals, conspiracy theories, histories of the culture wars... In the criticism of my posts lately I haven't heard anybody try to refute specifically what I've been trying to say: that "marginalized" counter-traditions are responsible to some degree for their invisibility, because the disjunctive traditions they espouse are difficulty- and obscurity-generators. I'm not saying this is bad, either. I'm not saying poetry has to be the fountainhead of public oratory. I'm only saying, Yeats had a different tradition which is not necessarily reactionary and is not necessarily dead. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:16:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: My Definition of 1975 In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980802032641.006aa998@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Er, well, Charles, no as a matter of fact....no "particular" reason. But the early gathering of the Lang clusters, would have been over the previous 4 or 5 years. ("This" began in 1971, right?) By 1975, the infamous "L" designation (which has outlived its usefulness, and now resides in the hands of curmudgeonly retro-ists like our Henry) had not yet arisen; but it was fairly clear that various strains were around that did not fit into the old mutiple New American paradigm of rebel poetries (Black Mt., beat, NY, etc.)...Through the agency of This and other venues, newer things had been appearing in print for long enuff to start a sense of unfamiliar idioms emerging.. Maybe i was thinking of the fact that 1975 was the date of Watten's wonderful book, Opera-Works, one of the first things i saw in that vein. ..Mark On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, Charles Alexander wrote: > >In large part, in the "wars" (as someone has just called 'em) that have > >raged since 1975 around experimental poetries, it is mostly the academics > >who've championed neo-babbitism, the non-academics who've been focused on > >the real issues... > > just a note -- I'm interested in your dating these wars as "since 1975," > particularly as I remember a poet grad student at U-Wisconsin, but from > Texas, in the early '80's, who at the time it seemed was being groomed by > Wisc. poet Ron Wallace. When arguing with this poet about these very > experimental/academic issues, his take on it at the time was that these > wars had been fought quite a few years before, and the "experimentalists" > had lost, so why are we talking about these things any more? > > Yes, talk about a failure to communicate . . . > > but seriously -- any particular reason why 1975 sticks out to you as the > beginning of these raging wars? > > charles > > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com > chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing > books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision > http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:11:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:03:15 -0700 from On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:03:15 -0700 Peter Balestrieri said: > > Henry, I'm trying to follow your argument and I'm wondering if you'd > be willing to clarify what you mean by "...the intent was to critique > another style of appropriation..." Who was doing the critiquing and > what style of appropriation are you referring to? I think you've > raised something important here and I want to be able to better > understand what you're saying. Did you mean that Langpo was critiquing > capitalist "appropriation" but only replaced it with another form of > appropriation, aesthetic rather than economic? Or am I way off? I think Langpo - hit me, real langpoets out there - was trying to write against the appropriation of poetry by 70s MFA "self" factories, and against the appropriation of literary space by "privacy capital" of all kinds. Their strategy was a drastic one: basically to dynamite the rhetorical/communicative function, the authorial function, and so on by letting "language" - individual words, non-sequiturs, broken syntax & rhetoric - speak (often comically) for itself. I'm suggesting this was a kind of unwitting creation of a new kind of private property - sort of prospecting the dictionary. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:42:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Linda Russo Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980802041335.006ba300@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm really enjoying the epic that's opening up before me here, another angle (personal testimony) of the struggles apparent in the mimeo revolution publications and its aftermath. I'm bemused, though, by the "war" analogy (as I was by the "anthology wars"). Certainly in constructing new structures poets, editors & academix wage "ideological wars" in their own minds & in their own "camps." But is it really an appropriate analogy? In the case of censorship, where, for example, the editors of the Chicago Review probably "battled" with the administration before quitting & starting Big Table - a sort of second-wave mimeo revolution, and certainly a "turning" as the term suggests, the analogy seems appropriate. Are there other particular (cross-camp) cites/battles to support a more general application? When one asserts a position or "claims a territory" that is yet unclaimed (being a sort of virtual territory -- publishing a little mag doesn't necessarily take territory "away" from other such publications) and there is no "battle," why is it a "war"? thx. Linda Russo ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:53:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think Langpo - hit me, real langpoets out there - was trying to >write against the appropriation of poetry by 70s MFA "self" factories, >and against the appropriation of literary space by "privacy capital" of >all kinds. Their strategy was a drastic one: basically to dynamite the >rhetorical/communicative function, the authorial function, and so on by >letting "language" - individual words, non-sequiturs, broken syntax & >rhetoric - speak (often comically) for itself. I'm suggesting this was >a kind of unwitting creation of a new kind of private property - sort of >prospecting the dictionary. - Henry G. Except that this appropriation was enacted with a sense of language as noone's property, and, in fact, in direct dispute with the presentation by a more narrative poetics of private experience as primary content for poetry, and a spelling out, for example in Rae Armantrout's wonderful review of the Morrow Anthology in Poetics Journal, that there are consistent themes/formulas (and some rather dangerous ones at that) in those supposedly individual experiential voice-poems which made up that anthology and more. So that (leap with me here) the lang experiments were a kind of freedom from ownership, freedom from language (more or less restricted in many ways) as capital in poetry. Freeing "language itself" from "language as mine (the poet's and a certain invited-to-overhear audience)." Whether this was successful or not is a big issue -- but did it create what you call, Henry, "a new kind of private property?" It does seem to have created a broad range of strategies for poetry which can now be used, and maybe can only be used, without the kind of "dynamiting" function of which you speak. And, if robbed of that, then also robbed of a good deal of the political import. Still, though, the gap between subject and what is enunciated, is a real gap which still engenders real exploration. The work is not only political, but psychological, cultural -- and to my mind, is still allowing new and engaging explorations. I don't give credit to their "difficulty" as the agent which separates such poems from a wider audience. That seems too easy to me, and goes against things I've learned in teaching, where much more so-called 'conventional' poems are seen as equally difficult by a good many students. There are a lot of things working in our culture against anyone reading any poetry at all, whether it be W.B. Yeats or Bruce Andrews. What brings more to the former than to the latter has a lot to do with how we are taught to read poetry, and what poetry we are encouraged to read by teachers, publishing industry, bookstores, etc. By the age of 7 or 8, according to my direct experience teaching workshops in elementary schools, half or more of the students already think poems are supposed to rhyme. Perhaps such ideas are formed much earlier, from nursery rhymes and early children's books. So, are any of us ready to revamp the entire human curriculum (not just inside the classroom) from birth? -- we may be ready and know it's necessary -- but how to do it??? I also think it's wrong, though, to see langpo as "the" alternative here. I think it is one part of a broad range of innovative practices, which to me still includes ideas from the various poetics included in the Allen Anthology (Black Mtn, Beat, NY School, Deep Image, and more), from specifically feminist poetics, from sound poetry, visual poetry, and much more -- and by no means is all of this work "difficult" in ways which should keep anybody away. I rather like prospecting the dictionary. charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 13:26:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Oh Henry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On 2 August, Henry Gould wrote: >nobody wants to consider the notion that this counter-tradition >might itself be bankrupt, in part for the very reason I mentioned: >the tearing apart of syntax for the sake of innovation; the use of >isolated vocabulary as a kind of aesthetic private property (eg. >"language poetry"- take it out of the dictionary & it's yours) as >opposed to the concept of language as a whole function of "public" >communication. I'm curious, why so few responses? Henry's comment above is very provocative. And it comes from a fellow who really does read and is clearly no lightweight in the head. Here we are getting at what the World War of Poetry is all about, no? Bernstein, Silliman, Perloff, Rothenberg and Joris (so much for your anthology, according to Henry, apparently), Bromige, Quartermain, etc. (and also everyone involved in the Alternativve Poetries Conference in Boston and young turks of the New (American) Poetry anthology): There is a pillbox to take! How many more comrades will die, shredded on the beach, before you respond? Are you really just a crew of aphasic, Scrabble-playing ninnies as Henry seems to claim? (And Henry, sincerely curious, what _do_ you think of the Poems for the Millennium anthology? Most of that just grabbing from the dictionary too? If there is work there you think is worthy, what is it?) Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:21:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:53:50 -0700 from Charles's post makes a lot of sense throughout. Still, I would ask how you differentiate a poetry that makes stereotyped lyric moments part of the private property of the self, and a poetry that prospects out its own private range, complete with anthologies, exegetes & explainers. Nor am I restricting this question to "language poetry" - I'm talking about the anthologized "postmodern moment". I'm suggesting its difficulty is one of its attributes or properties which provides it with academic exchange value. For a long time on this list I have been promoting another kind of difficulty - as something layered within a synthetic, communicable "prose" speech that can rise to poetry. - HG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:38:54 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: another Listee succumbs Content-Type: text/plain from Carmilla 2000 CHAPTER II Prosecuting which to lose An hour is possibly Return Three months is whispered Distant daughter, considerable pend Her journey. The horses were tractable The lady threw affectionate quite as one might beckoned I was filed. Stern Countenance A little benediction spinning Then hastily kissing her liveries Cracked Whips, the horses Plunged & Broke suddenly Following, at the same rapid horsemen _Cortège_ our eyes were hoofs this very air Illusion moment— but the young Raised her tenderly Ask This carriage hurt Converse With possibly overpower I thought My father in the meantime sent Drawing room longation Large Utrecht velvet leanings He insisted with our coffee Hardly store Set teeth to fury! Ill- Looking band of men I beheld in life my clever rogues I am very curious Passed velvet interview It was pretty even Dimpling cheeks were now delightfully Vein-- which hospitality spoke & Took her as I spoke She answered my welcome with her vision "I must tell you my vision": *In the land before Assaulted & defrayed the firebrands These villagers weren't used to sing Quiescently. Swallowing her voice & All manner of companions* _Her Habits-- A Saunter_ W/ something of gold. I loved to let it Back in her chair By comparison, the archduke was plum; To foil & braid it One girl a syllable can endure _Any mortal breathing--_ ((*.* = strikethrough, _._ = italics)) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:41:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Re: Oh Henry! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Trying to read through today's posts while sitting on my hands knowing what else I should be doing, but no go. Just a SMALL response -- Henry wrote >to narrow the range; just a means of once again raising the possibility >that "innovative" poetry & experiment might be organized on a whole >different set of paradigms. Does anyone on this list, in their heart of hearts, not WANT this if it indeed means paradigms that are not arbitrarily territorial? And if I believe with Charles Alexander that the learning begins with the young'ins do we really expect their weary public school reading teachers to look for clues and fodder in Poetics Journal before they try the NYT Book Review (why NOT know what's on that ticker, appalling as it be, as well as on other tickers)? Why NOT expect "literary literacy" to include Bayley -- off-base though he be on poetry, not his forte and ill-chosen clearly by NYRB -- along with Pound -- god love 'im off-base on a people? My own work may play as more "conservative" than much on this list (yes one of my poems was a Hollander selectee) but I'll freely admit I have not the courage of some of you in accepting the colors and wielding the weapons. To me, this territory war seems to me like the tiniest subset of larger cultural and economic dynamics, and I choose cowardice and selfishness in pretending that I can ignore categories in order to write with a greater sense of freedom, even if it be self-illusory -- instead of using up this energy in sandbagging the brittle dams the waves are toppling anyway. Or so I think when I feel called to justify. Got to clam up or I'll never finish this book (prose). Sorry to not engage further. Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:42:37 -0700 Reply-To: Robert Corbett Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: - Henry Gould In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yeats is inappropriate in some ways as pole star for a "synthetic" tradition of poetry, because of his long engagement with Blake and the fact that an elaborate, "archetypal" system underlies all his seemingly lucid lyricism. One of the most important Yeats' critics, Hazard Adams, claims that all of his work is of a piece, and poems inevitably take on different meanings when referred back to his system. Yeats' strategies were not "disjunctive" as such, and he created a system that aspired to totalization, but nevertheless, there is an esoteric, some would say, obscurantist, aspect to his work that makes it resonate much with Ron Silliman's work as it does with Robert Hass's. In terms of a modest, synthetic style, the precursor I would put here is Auden. And of course Auden estranged his vocabulary with the use of jargon words as well occasionally awkward musics. Finally, Yeats rediscovered Blake for the 20th century, whom Eliot claimed wrote outside of tradition in his own esoteric vocabulary. Vendler might say the same thing. Of course, Blake is the perhaps the most "webbed" romantic poet there. History has made nonsense of Eliot's criticism, and given comfort to many unregarded poet--perhaps too much. This is not to say that mystical Yeats is the only Yeats or even that one has to read a Vision in order to understand Yeats' great political poems (let me add that it is offensive to me to stereotype Yeats as a fascist pure and simple when his politics are much more complex). It does suggest that there usually more than two sides to great poets. It also suggests a more complex "situating" of elite and popular poetries, along the lines of the rationale for parables in christian discourse: those in the know will understand the kernel of meaning around which the germ (often the rather obvious moral) is wrapped. As far as modest, narrative, historical poetry, I can suggest two candidates, one facetiously and one not. Michael Lind (a student of Frederick Turner, though not really a "professional poet") has written a narrative poem about the fall of the Alamo, which by many accounts sinks under the bathos of sentiment and the banality of verse. Out here in Seattle, we have an interesting poet, Jana Harris, who has written a long poem (really a series of poems) about the settling of the Northwest. Of course, Lind, because of his New Republic and political connections (his a neo-con who has turned against neo-cons), has gotten a lot more publicity. I wonder where would bp nichol fall in this (perhaps by now discarded) distinction? perhaps as a run-up to the coming conference we could start a nicholian thread? unravellingly yours Robert On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, henry wrote: > On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:42:57 EDT Michael Franco said: > > > >Henry it strikes me that so long as your looking to the NYT BK Review for > >authentication you are going to feel that poetry is at a dead end. . . > > > >re Pinsky... he writes what he writes -his view- which I do not necessarily > >share > >. . . but having worked with him a bit editing poetry submissions... there are > >few people that I know that are as clean in their approach to each poem as he > >is> He always took the submission on its terms -not his- & in ways that far > >exceeded those of the other panel members -myself included- who all had an > >agenda of what poetry they thought most vital for the mag. > > > >Kent is quite right in his brief assessment & i would add that if you address > >yourself to fools & people out there scrambling to make money [cf TNYTBR] (as > >opposed to addressing those trying to release something in/from Language ... > >(a continual search... & a real tradition -not a trend- ) you will have to > >suffer the discourse that they are willing to have ie what # are the best > >seller list are you??? > > I wasn't quoting Pinsky to criticize him, rather to suggest that some of > the ideas in "Situation of Poetry" still make sense. > There are a lot of ways to deal with the myopia of mainstream press > about poetry. Most of them have been tried here on the list - jeremiads, > dismissals, conspiracy theories, histories of the culture wars... > In the criticism of my posts lately I haven't heard anybody try to > refute specifically what I've been trying to say: that "marginalized" > counter-traditions are responsible to some degree for their invisibility, > because the disjunctive traditions they espouse are difficulty- and > obscurity-generators. I'm not saying this is bad, either. I'm not > saying poetry has to be the fountainhead of public oratory. I'm only > saying, Yeats had a different tradition which is not necessarily reactionary > and is not necessarily dead. - Henry Gould > Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:55:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Henry, I would certainly grant you the point that "difficulty" gives a lot of poetry, postmodern and otherwise, and a lot of music and art and science and mathematics, a certain "academic exchange value." I think a lot of people in the academy who study poetry want a challenge. I want a challenge, too, as a reader. But you speak of this difficulty as though it is something consciously just layered on, as if poets are saying, "oh we'd better make these works difficult," rather than respecting their various projects as inherently involving and leading them into ideas and intermeshings of language with ideas, that are themselves quite difficult at times -- although not, I think, all the time. Whereas you seem to be espousing a "kind of difficulty" which is entirely involved with the content of what is said, and not the form, if what you want is really this "communicable prose" speech that you put forward. There is such work I admire, but I certainly don't think it any more worthy than work whose intellectual/emotional difficulty crawls right into the craggy juxtaposition of phonemes and morphemes, the gaps between one enunciation and another. As for "rising" to poetry, though -- I have trouble with that metaphor, as I don't necessarily see poetry as occupying a higher ground than prose, or scientific writing, or mathematics, or any other such endeavor. And I guess I do differentiate "stereotyped lyric moment" poetry from what you term as "poetry that prospects out its" language, content, and form. You seem to want to link the two on the shared plateau of privacy. Yet in the one, you admit that privacy is a matter of the idea of self and its transcendence (perhaps) through those lyric moments, whereas in the other you argue that the privacy comes from what you see as "difficulty." I think, even for those who might agree with you that both achieve a kind of privacy (and I don't think I'm one of those), it would be evident that they are entirely different kinds of privacy won in entirely different ways. And I certainly see it as fine to value one over the other. charles At 02:21 PM 8/3/98 EDT, you wrote: >Charles's post makes a lot of sense throughout. Still, I would ask how you >differentiate a poetry that makes stereotyped lyric moments part of the >private property of the self, and a poetry that prospects out its own >private range, complete with anthologies, exegetes & explainers. Nor am >I restricting this question to "language poetry" - I'm talking about >the anthologized "postmodern moment". I'm suggesting its difficulty is >one of its attributes or properties which provides it with academic >exchange value. For a long time on this list I have been promoting another >kind of difficulty - as something layered within a synthetic, communicable >"prose" speech that can rise to poetry. >- HG > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 14:10:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: More on Yeats MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think Robert Corbett's last post said, much more eloquently than I did, what I had meant to say about Yeats--his sort of bizarre occultish side making him the precursor of people like Duncan. A thought experiment--what if Yeats had been neglected for years and suddenly been discovered as a cult figure, not associated with any sort of official modernism at all? A question for Mr. Gould: what contemporary American poets represent the legacy of Yeats as he understands it? Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:15:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: Other Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Excuse personal message to Jack Kimball, but he may be looking for this message on the Poetics List. Jack, I've back-channelled the list of "Other" Brit poet names you requested to the miyazaki mailing address. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:20:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Oh Henry In-Reply-To: <4E6BEB2CD4@student.highland.cc.il.us> from "KENT JOHNSON" at Aug 3, 98 01:26:38 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "God bless henry" for asking tough questions - but I have to say I think he's completely wrong here, both about the motives behind experimental writing and the state of American poetry: so 1) as for the state of Am Po, I think its quite alive and well, thank you. Henry, do you know how many people read Williams *Spring and All* when it came out - well, the thing did not sit in the window of a Barnes & Noble - we're talking a handful of people in the Village (the "Others" crowd) and a few other like-minded souls. It's that retrospective vision which kills - eg, "jeez, no one seems to be as celebrated as Williams" (or Whitman, Wordsworth, ...). Of course, we're not the print culture we once were, & as far as I'm concerned that's great - I love TV, films, visual arts, jazz, hip-hop (and look at me, mom, I'm still writing!). As for the argument that the good stuff is abroad, well, hell, that's the oldest one in the book - I love much international poetry (I'm publishing the wonderful avant-garde Russian poet Lev Rubenstein in the next COMBO), but rhetorically, I think the celebration of such often depends on an old "great poems are written in times of war and strife" mentality which, frankly, makes me squeemish. And as for the NYT Book Review and its ilk, there a big bore - but more than this, they're not very important - the suggestion that they are Foucaultian wielders of clout doesn't hold water anymore, I think - I think I'm fairly representative of intellectuals of my generation and I hardly ever touch it. Likewise with the writers they promote - Pinsky may get around with NYT types in midtwon Manhattan but I have never - never - heard of his books being taught in five years at Penn - in contrast I've taught Hejinian, Silliman, Perelman, Bernstein and their friends to hundreds of students - who, I might add, dug their poems a whole lot. I say this only because I believe we need to be disabused of the idea we've all somehow run out of gas: for me, to take that attitude is to make the fatal mistake which Foucault was always on the verge of making: confusing one's personal struggle with the universal state of things. So, 2) there are GOOD REASONS for writing experimentally that have NOTHING TO DO with an "innovation for innovation's sake" position: rather, in Am Po, one can follow a tradition from Emerson & Wm James to DuBois, Stein, Dewey, Williams, Burke (all in one way or another students of James) to to the New American Poetry generally, which invests in an experimental methodology precisely BECAUSE they believe that langauge is "a function of public communication." That is, they see language as symbolic action and they believe that experiment/innovation has a symbolically active set of points to make. Some of these writers are radical democrats trying to make language/syntax function more democratically on the level of symbolic action; others have Marxist predilections and are in the general area of Jameson (a serious student of Burke) in their considerations of symbolic action (particularly as Jameson works in The POlitical Unconscious). My point here is that these writers are damn serious and *not* self-indulgent in their pursuits (that is, not any more self-indulgent than we all are on a day to day basis). You may think this is bullshit bu I'll take the philosophical (and social) rigor of James or Burke (or Cornel West, or Nate Mackey) any day. So viva poetry!!! -m. According to KENT JOHNSON: > > On 2 August, Henry Gould wrote: > > >nobody wants to consider the notion that this counter-tradition > >might itself be bankrupt, in part for the very reason I mentioned: > >the tearing apart of syntax for the sake of innovation; the use of > >isolated vocabulary as a kind of aesthetic private property (eg. > >"language poetry"- take it out of the dictionary & it's yours) as > >opposed to the concept of language as a whole function of "public" > >communication. > > I'm curious, why so few responses? Henry's comment above is very > provocative. And it comes from a fellow who really does read > and is clearly no lightweight in the head. Here we are getting at > what the World War of Poetry is all about, no? > > Bernstein, Silliman, Perloff, Rothenberg and Joris (so much for your > anthology, according to Henry, apparently), Bromige, Quartermain, > etc. (and also everyone involved in the Alternativve Poetries > Conference in Boston and young turks of the New (American) Poetry > anthology): There is a pillbox to take! How many more comrades will > die, shredded on the beach, before you respond? Are you really just > a crew of aphasic, Scrabble-playing ninnies as Henry seems to > claim? > > (And Henry, sincerely curious, what _do_ you think of the Poems for > the Millennium anthology? Most of that just grabbing from the > dictionary too? If there is work there you think is worthy, what is > it?) > > Kent > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:28:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Academic exchange value MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII No matter who you're talking about, the "academic exhange value" of any contemporary poetry is assumed to lie in its ability to be _promoted_ in the critical essay or review. Whether you're writing on John Hollander or Charles Bernstein, Amy Clampitt or Susan Howe, academic value is wrenched out of poetry as a relentless critical project. Pick your own favorite essay on a poet and see if it matches this rough structure: 1. Most contemporary poetry is [moribund, pathetic, too academic, not academic enough, too trendy, not trendy enough, too much form, too much content]. [Pages of examples] 2. The work of [poet's name here], however, bucks this trend. As a result, [poet's name here]'s work has been ignored. Critics have hitherto been unable to deal with this poet's [intellect, emotion, epistemology, sexuality, bad attitude, vocabulary] and have written [poet's name here] out of the canon. I propose to correct this oversight. 3. [Pages of counter-examples from the work of the poet] 4. If only the world would pay attention to [poet's name here], we would all love poetry. Pity the world doesn't follow my shining example. ---------- Now THERE'S a bankrupt tradition for you: yet it seems to be viable all over the place, certainly not restricted to any one wing of the academic critical establishment. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:21:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:55:33 -0700 from On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 11:55:33 -0700 Charles Alexander said: Whereas you seem to be >espousing a "kind of difficulty" which is entirely involved with the >content of what is said, and not the form, if what you want is really this >"communicable prose" speech that you put forward. There is such work I >admire, but I certainly don't think it any more worthy than work whose >intellectual/emotional difficulty crawls right into the craggy >juxtaposition of phonemes and morphemes, the gaps between one enunciation >and another. The kind of difficulty I espouse is very close to what R. Corbett described regarding Yeats: layers of meaning steeped into a kind of forthright, singing syntax. This is what I find in the Russians too, Mandelstam & Akhmatova in particular. Ars est celare artem = art is to hide art. Kent, there's nobody in the pillbox; Jonathan, I don't read much contemporary work; I read stuff I need for my own writing. If Vallejo, Mandelstam, Celan, Akhmatova, Dickinson, Yeats are in the Millennium anthology, they are some of my favorites, good. I've been reading Portuguese Cape Verdean popular poems for a project I'm working on; I've been reading Under the Volcano by Malcolm Lowry because his anti-hero Geoffrey Firmin, like me, identifies with William Blackstone. Susan, sorry the wars cause headaches; my strategy is to hammer away at people so they figure out how to read my stuff if it ever gets published. Plus I like the idea of something after postmodernism. Aside: there was a CD not long ago of Yeats poems performed by various Irish pop music groups. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: <199808031529.LAA22523@mail-atm.nycap.rr.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > For a few years, when David Wilke was the head of the NEA lit division, it > looked > like that at least part of that might change, but, alas! Reagan,etc. (Even > corporate > sponsorship is likely less treacherous than government sponsorship...). > > Don > The last phrase is a bit cryptic for me. Is there that much corporate sponsorship of writing program (or language poetry, for that matter)? Robert Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 12:56:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: In which will be found what is set forth therein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ) sorry to bother everybody about this, but -- the computer gremlins here at LMU threw out the saved baby emails along with the crashed bathwater, so I need to ask -- Will whoever it was that asked me about writing about Rae Armantrout please get back in touch with me about the deadline -- & Who is it on the list who was trying to put together a collection of Dan Davidson's work? Pvt. Ryan, by the way, appears to have far fewer verbal anachronisms in the dialoge than does the Lyne _Lolita_ -- Though Spielburg films all seem to boil down to getting ET home and directing lots of traffic (what made DUEL perhaps his best movie, though Sugarland Express has better acting) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:03:57 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: Oh Henry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What interests me most about this discussion, which I'm joining awfully late, are Henry's primary charge (that the counter-tradition may be bankrupt) and his secondary charge (that the counter-tradition is left out of the most prominent debates about poetry because of a willful obscurity). These are important issues, presented as real challenges, and if this makes Henry a bull then we need more bulls, no matter whether we agree or disagree. With regard to the secondary charge: Peter Barry had a lot to say about this in the English context at the London conference being discussed in the Anglo-American thread. He made the US out to be a greener pasture, but I think his comments apply here, too (others have discussed this better than I could on the thread I've mentioned). With regard to the primary charge: It seems to me that traditions of poetry _can_ decline into mannerism, and that one way this can occur is through value being judged predominantly on the employment of one particular poetic element. For example, when we fetishize a particular subject matter (personal trauma, say, or ethnicity) and judge poetry primarily on the basis of that subject matter, we risk mannerism -- think of the fate of confessional poetry. We also run this risk when we fetishize a particular formal quality, and judge poetry primarily on the basis of the use of one particular trope or formal element. The decline of formalism from Frost to _Rebel Angels_ seems to me to come from the fetishizing of full rhyme without enjambment, for example. But the decline of formalism into mannerism isn't a matter of controversy on this list -- as the charge that the syntactic disjunction of language poetry has become mere mannerism is. What about that charge? Are we left with "inchoate jumbles of broken syntax" littering the journals, as Henry claims? The question is worth following up, so kudos to Henry for raising it. (And kudos to Kent for giving some perspective by reminding us that there are more bad poems that work through coherent synatax and image than there are bad poems that work through disjunction). I thin it is demonstrable that that there is still important poetry being written in the syntactically disjunctive mode (just now I've been reading some by Catherine Walsh, but there are American examples too). But my sense is also that there is a hell of a lot of mannerist late langpo that disjoins for the sake of disjoining and that doesn't give us anything new or powerful. And I think that the most exciting energies in poetry in the US and elsewhere are to be found neither in the (for lack of a better shorthand term) mainstream nor in the language poetry tradition (see Archambeau duck behind the nearest tree, the peep out sheepishly to see if the lead is flying). Who or what am I talking about? I hope some of this will be apparent when the first issue of _Samizdat_, a journal I'm editing, comes out at the end of the month. If you're interested, I can wrangle a few free copies -- backchannel with your street address. Of course, you're also free to subscribe ($10/year -- three tabloid-format issues). Bob Archambeau, still hiding behind the tree, hoping the schrapnel doesn't hit ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:16:00 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: NYRB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Franco wrote: > re Pinsky... he writes what he writes -his view- which I do not necessarily > share > . . . but having worked with him a bit editing poetry submissions... there are > few people that I know that are as clean in their approach to each poem as he > is> He always took the submission on its terms -not his- & in ways that far > exceeded those of the other panel members -myself included- who all had an > agenda of what poetry they thought most vital for the mag. There is that. Whatever else is to be said about Pinsky, I'm sure he's the only US laureate ever to have written a sympathetic essay on George Oppen. (reprinted in Poetry and the World, if you're interested). Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:15:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: Re: More about "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 3 Aug 98 Henry Gould writes: >The Yeats/Pound thing is not an attempt >to narrow the range; just a means of once again raising the possibility >that "innovative" poetry & experiment might be organized on a whole >different set of paradigms. I'm not saying that's not already happening… This discussion about 'paradigm' shifts has me examining again something I am just reading now in Gary Taylor's book and then comparing it to some remark by Octavio Paz in the 'Preface to his book ONE EARTH, FOUR OR FIVE WORLDS, which I first read a few weeks back. For example, From CULTURAL MEMORY by Gary Taylor: "In his book _The Structure of Scientific Revolution_ , Thomas Kuhn argues that science does not 'progress' in the orderly, incremental way we usually assume; instead, scientific revolutions turn the established worldview on its head, replacing one paradigm with another. The new paradigm is not necessarily better; it is just different, so different that it cannot really be compared with the old paradigm, because there is no common standard of measurement that both paradigms would accept. Kuhn divides the history of science into brief periods of revolution, when paradigms shift, and much longer periods of normal science, when researchers investigate technical problems defined by the prevailing stable paradigm. We especially remember the revolutionary periods and the scientist associated with them because they generated an exceptionally large intellectual stimulus. . .…" From Octavio Paz: "Like the Mayas, who had two ways of measuring time, the 'short count' and the 'long count', French historians have introduced the distinction between 'long duration' and 'short duration' in historical processes. The first designates the broad rhythms that, through modifications that are imperceptible at first, alter old structures and create new ones, thus bringing gradual but irreversible social changes. Examples include increases and decreases in population, which are still not entirely explained; the evolution of sciences and technologies; the discovery of new natural resources or their gradual exhaustion; the erosion of social institutions; the transformation of mentalities and sensibilities. . ." " 'Short duration' is the domain par excellence of the event : falling empires, nascent States, revolutions, wars, presidents resigning, monica lewinsky, assassinated dictators, crucified prophets, sanctimonious crucifiers, ken starr, etc. [yes, I made a clever revision here] History is often compared to a woven fabric, the work of many hands; without deciding on a pattern beforehand, and without knowing exactly what they are doing, these hands weave threads of every color together until a succession of figures, at once familiar and enigmatic, appears on the loom. From the point of view of 'short duration', the figures are not repeated : history is constant creation, novelty, the realm of the unique and singular. From the standpoint of 'long duration', repetitions, ruptures, and renewals can be perceived: rhythms. Both visions are true." ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 16:18:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Robert Corbett wrote: > The last phrase is a bit cryptic for me. Is there that much corporate > sponsorship of writing program (or language poetry, for that matter)? Bob Perelman, Bud Lite Professor of English, University of Pennsylvania Barrett Watten, General Motors Professor of American Studies, Wayne State U Charles "Gordita" Bernstein, Taco Bell Chair of Poetry and Poetics, SUNY-Buffalo "Poetry, by Ralph Lauren" reading series at the Hear Inn. The 1998 Nike "Girls in the Game" tour (featuring Howe, Retallack, Scalapino and others reading simultaneously on three stages!) Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:41:24 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Bob Perelman, Bud Lite Professor of English, University of Pennsylvania > > Barrett Watten, General Motors Professor of American Studies, Wayne State U > > Charles "Gordita" Bernstein, Taco Bell Chair of Poetry and Poetics, > SUNY-Buffalo > > "Poetry, by Ralph Lauren" reading series at the Hear Inn. > > The 1998 Nike "Girls in the Game" tour (featuring Howe, Retallack, > Scalapino and others reading simultaneously on three stages!) David -- Let's not forget Marjorie Perloff reading her London paper in that stock-car-racing jumpsuit covered in STP and Mobil Oil patches. We lesser mortals are, of course, stuck with local sponsors -- I teach in a little-league style uniform that says "Hoagie Hut" across the back. Bob ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: Re: Oh Henry In-Reply-To: <199808031920.PAA58642@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sometimes you write experimentally because we're at the portal of another millennium different technology cyborg phenomenology writing in the skull with unforeseen mediations and to repeat writing is sewing the whirlwind with useless thread Alan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:25:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "s. kaipa" Subject: Address Change/ Interlope In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980803105350.006a1634@theriver.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Please note my new address! Summi Kaipa & I n t e r l o p e magazine 103 S. Governor St., Apt. 1 Iowa City, IA 52240 My email and phone will not change: (319) 466-0912 skaipa@blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thanks! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:30:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: The They MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Subject: The They De Man Heidegger and Maybe Celine De Man Heidegger and Maybe Celine My Name is Jennifer Where have you Been De Man Heidegger and Lovely Celine "what they wrote, or didn't write, about the war at one time, meaning and a motivation the dim grapple, blunted hook and circulation of beard and book and object, always a roar of Truth about their writing they'd thought they'd go down fighting through clear delineations of a mausoleum door they'd see 'from out of into' the scum then there was clarity and deaf ambition by now and later also blind attrition writing contaminated by its source beat a dead horse in your condition" (Wilfred Owen) To which I might reply: Celine is a special case, Jewish Gravel Standing Upright on the Peninsula De Man another, for who would want the Inability to Change a Mind Before the Patriarch, Denial of Title For I, Daishin Nikuko, insist that Roots atrophy, The Inexorable Grinding of Wrong Opinion Before the Castle of Chastity shall Lose its Way across the Straightest Moat Dear Heidegger, Let us Read what is Written, Remembering but Losing At times the Thread across This Way For the Thread is a Thread to be sure, And sometimes Knowledge is Grounded in Letting-Go The Hardest Lesson of All is that Not everything is Reflected in everything else There are Things Cut off, Cauterized A Reading is Always a Beginning to take and Give simultaneously Across the Moat towards the Castle of Fortitude Which is not Always Right, but has proper Reading Lamps I shall not Strain my I's. I shall Cut myself Off in the Wilderness I shall Howl Like a Beast that Longs to Open and Run I shall Wear Gravel I shall Cease Reading Gain Certain Knowledge Forget What I have Gained "For the Thread to be Sure is a Thread And Knowledge is sometimes Grounded in Letting-go" ______________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:09:42 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: DuCharme Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit <> ok Mark D., what do you want? what's your address btw, and you Todd Barron and you Pat Pritchett? gracias, Bill Luoma maz881@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:27:29 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris McCreary Subject: address query/Brian Lucas & Angle Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I'm trying to contact Brian Lucas/Angle & am looking for either an e address or his new (NYC) mailing address. His e-mail and mailing addresses listed @ the EPC are both out of date... Please backchannel any info. Thanks. Chris McCreary ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 18:40:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Rock n' Roll? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On August 3, Aldon Nielsen wrote: (Saving Private Ryan) "has far verbal anachronisms in the dialogue than the Lyne _Lolita_." A small thing, and I know the discussion on the film is pretty much over, but did anyone else notice that as the Germans are rolling into town in the final battle scene one of the American soldiers scurries to his position and calls out, "Rock n' Roll boys!" I'm pretty sure I heard this. If so, this would be out of time, wouldn't it? How could a film like this, where even the boots are the real item, get something like that wrong? Or maybe it was a little joke on purpose? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:30:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Rock n' Roll? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" a_." > >A small thing, and I know the discussion on the film is pretty much >over, but did anyone else notice that as the Germans are rolling >into town in the final battle scene one of the American >soldiers scurries to his position and calls out, "Rock n' Roll boys!" > >I'm pretty sure I heard this. If so, this would be out of time, >wouldn't it? How could a film like this, where even the boots are >the real item, get something like that wrong? Or maybe it was a >little joke on purpose? > >Kent I too notice this and thought it was odd! But as a friend pointed out to me maybe they were saying lock n' load - as get your guns ready. ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:30:52 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark P: > This is very interesting Matt.....Especially since many folks perceive the > *academics* as the ones who tend to take a hard-nosed anti-intellectual > stance. Now i strongly agree that a pretty shallow anti-intellectualism > is a prominent feature of U.S. life and cul'chah.. Wow, this sounds weird to me. Maybe it's just that NZ has nothing to compare to the Ivy League establishment, but I don't know many people here who would say that academics were anti-intellectual. In popular usage, academic = intellectual = pretentious = bad. I've probably been exposed to too many open mike nights (where anything that's influenced by poets more serious than Jim Morrison is 'academic') or 'Sundaystream' Poetry Society readings (where anything other than a haiku about one's cat is 'academic'). I'm used to being abused as 'academic', though I haven't studied literature formally since I was 16. One gets labelled as a postmodernist (= especially bad) if one's poems don't rhyme. Most 'established' poets here work in or are friendly to the academy, but the academy is neither stuffy-leather-armchairs staid nor (except perhaps in Auckland) radical-political-post-modernist. I suppose it's close to the Iowa school: middle-brow cultured liberal, with an emphasis on 'common sense' and being down-to-earth. Blame it on the sheep, I guess. If I were being less facetious (and I suppose I'd better make an effort), I'd say that the phrase 'academic poetry' refers here to anything that requires a post-compulsory education to appreciate. It has nothing to do with the qualifications or career of the poet: an English professor who writes nice little poems about trees and mountains is not academic; but a truckdriver who quotes Derrida is. Robert A: > Bob Perelman, Bud Lite Professor of English, University of Pennsylvania > > Barrett Watten, General Motors Professor of American Studies, Wayne State U How about: Bill Manhire, Te Mata Wines Poet Laureate? Actually, I've no objection to this sort of sponsorship: Te Mata are not exactly a megacorporation (and anyone who can make a wine like their Coleraine is okay with me); the post lasts two years, requires no "Ode to Merlot", funds the publication of a book and results in more public awareness for poetry. Maybe we need more sponsorships like this? Address flames to: Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:18:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: Oh Henry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "This colorful, complex, and influential movement was...considered 'a harmful influence' or 'a bourgeois error,' and, since approximately 1930, thought unworthy of serious consideration" - Markov, _Russian Futurism_ - happened across this today and couln't help wondering how it might relate to the current flurry here. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:39:16 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: My Definition of Academic In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Well okay, sure. But other than these few extremely rare exceptions (so rare, they're hardly worth commenting on) can you really make a case for corporate sponsorship? (Does the FBI count as a corporation?) David Kellogg wrote: >On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Robert Corbett wrote: > >> The last phrase is a bit cryptic for me. Is there that much corporate >> sponsorship of writing program (or language poetry, for that matter)? > >Bob Perelman, Bud Lite Professor of English, University of Pennsylvania > >Barrett Watten, General Motors Professor of American Studies, Wayne State U > >Charles "Gordita" Bernstein, Taco Bell Chair of Poetry and Poetics, > SUNY-Buffalo > >"Poetry, by Ralph Lauren" reading series at the Hear Inn. > >The 1998 Nike "Girls in the Game" tour (featuring Howe, Retallack, >Scalapino and others reading simultaneously on three stages!) > Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:51:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Address Change Hello, all; in a bit of an e-mail blockout, unfortunately, and soon I will be far, far away from e-mail at all (well, the Orkneys.) I will also soon be changing my address on the list to: sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu In anticipation of the coming term and the end of my time in Puerto Rico. -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu lydianmode@ucsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:53:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: angling others / different tracks through the woods / lofgish rant As far as I know, the concept of the academics commenting on contemporary poetry has a very short history -- beginning in the 20th century, no? -- with the introduction of studies in the UK cirrculum. Harvard, for example, began much later; not sure when. Does anybody know when the correspondance between the academy and the poets began, with the poets as supplicants? Perhaps it all began when Eliot dropped out of philosophy to begin writing; the footnotes to The Waste Land seem to demand three classical scholars and a sociologist to decpiher. I'd be interested to hear how critics within the academy perceive themselves. Do you consider your position in the university as a handy way to support yourself in what you love to do? Or do you perceive a more organic communication between the university (and all the social and intellectual privileges that entails) and your work? That you share a building with, say, the historians, who indirectly codify and thus direct the course of history -- does this seem to mirror your own experience of working from "within"? (Or "more blue", for those tired of spatial metaphors.) On a side note; my comment that "why can't critics stick to talking about the poets they like" seems in retrospect to be a little naieve. I was thinking of the kind of criticism -- very valuable -- that goes on in the letters of a man such as Keats, or Pound, where they trash various writers that would be considered today a "vital" part of a critic's repertoire -- Milton, for example. A critic perhaps has more responsibility -- but this seems to return to the question of how the critics see themselves in relationship to the university. -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu lydianmode@ucsd.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 01:22:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Milosz On a different subject; I've been reading Czeslaw Milosz's journal _Year of the Hunter_, which he kept from late 1987 to mid 1988. Here's an entry from November 17th, 1987 (which seems somehow significant -- the only date near it that I can think of is Guy Fawkes.) I try to read contempgrary American poetry conscientiously. It's understandable that where there are thousands of poets, the overwhelling majority cannot be worth very much, though they provide an incentive and nourishment for the few, just a handful; it's the same everywhere. Something similiar is happenang in modern painting and the results are similar, too, because the paintings afford little pleasure. One can say about these poets that their technique is first-rate, but that they have nothing to write about. Their "life experience" shows through every line of verse; it is the life of lecturers on university campuses or in high schools and what they describe most frequently is their family-life complications, their own or heard about in the neighborhood bar. It is a common, monotonous reality, free of historical earthquakes; at most, it includes one or two earthquakes, in a literal sense. Nothing drives them to leap like salmon confronting an obstacle. Precisely that, this "having nothing to write about", is, in my opinon, quite a universal problem to be studied. Many things in this quote. First of all, the difference between his perception of American poetry and the one that has dominated this list discussion. For Milosz, it seems, the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E folk are wound like ivy to the sonnet writers. The attention, which is rare these days, to content, sticks out in my mind -- which might be due to Milosz's encounters with a language he doesn't write in? And the notion of historical earthquakes? What does he mean? It all seems rather odd to someone who grew up on poetry as the product of a comfortable life -- from Aeschylus to Keats and on. Not that all poetry need be generated from peace, but certaintly not that war or "earthquakes" need be the sole generators of verse. Perhaps he means conceptual earthquakes -- but it seems that then only the first to arrive on the scene would claim the prize. A later arrival would, no matter what the skill, would fail to experience the earthquake and be left "common, monotonous". And finally, I'll take issue with the (slightly snide) remark about lecturers and high school teachers, which on later consideration seems not so snide. There needs be, for Milosz, some kind of substrate from which is thrown up from time to time the "great", something more than a "community" it seems, but rather a community in the land of word. It's slightly mystical, even, the way that he believes the unread chapbooks of the many provide "nourishment for the few". Enough. Best wishes to all, -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu lydianmode@ucsd.com PS: I hope nobody on the list takes my quote of Milosz as a my criticism of academics who write poetry -- a broad class that would draw in many fish, including minnows such as myself. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:28:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Rock n' Roll? In-Reply-To: <53A8205652@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Two friends in Toronto e-mailed me the news that they had gone to see that "Saving Pvt Ryan" movie, and that they had slumped out afterward, complaining that it was yet more US jingoism. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:33:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Rock n' Roll? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Two friends in Toronto e-mailed me the news that they had gone to see that >"Saving Pvt Ryan" > movie, and that they had slumped out afterward, complaining that it was >yet more US jingoism. > >Well yeah, it is a shitty film. A well made shitty film, but neverless a >shitty film. Actually it is sort of like a three hour version of the tv >show COMBAT. And I like Vic Morrow better then Tom Hanks. But I must >say, it must be more than a movie to appear in the Poetics discussion >group! ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:39:52 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: H=E=N=R=Y Content-Type: text/plain I disagree. I don't believe language, even in the texts of the dreaded , CAN be private property. I believe language is inherently communal. This presumption changes how one _reads_ such texts-- de-esotericizes them, if you will. Perhaps this, I think strange, belief in language as private property in modernist & postmodernist writing (since I assume you would probably extend your critique not just toward Langpo, but perhaps also to Stein, Zukofsky's _"A"_, Un Coup de Des, _Finnegan's Wake_, etc.) explains why you are seemingly incapable of reading these texts with pleasure, or without annoyance. Whereas someone like me, who doesn't share your belief in language as private property in or outside of these writings, IS capable of reading these texts as non-esoteric-- as a liberation & a pleasure. --Mark DuCharme Henry Gould wrote: >On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:03:15 -0700 Peter Balestrieri said: >> >> Henry, I'm trying to follow your argument and I'm wondering if you'd >> be willing to clarify what you mean by "...the intent was to critique >> another style of appropriation..." Who was doing the critiquing and >> what style of appropriation are you referring to? I think you've >> raised something important here and I want to be able to better >> understand what you're saying. Did you mean that Langpo was critiquing >> capitalist "appropriation" but only replaced it with another form of >> appropriation, aesthetic rather than economic? Or am I way off? > >I think Langpo - hit me, real langpoets out there - was trying to >write against the appropriation of poetry by 70s MFA "self" factories, >and against the appropriation of literary space by "privacy capital" of >all kinds. Their strategy was a drastic one: basically to dynamite the >rhetorical/communicative function, the authorial function, and so on by >letting "language" - individual words, non-sequiturs, broken syntax & >rhetoric - speak (often comically) for itself. I'm suggesting this was >a kind of unwitting creation of a new kind of private property - sort of >prospecting the dictionary. - Henry G. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 00:38:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: feminism and "Oh Henry" and the Yeats/Pound split Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I might be speaking out of gender here, but it might be a "feminine" weaving that Paz feels will bring these familiar and enigmatic figures to the loom. tom bell At 04:15 PM 8/3/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Mon, 3 Aug 98 Henry Gould writes: > >>The Yeats/Pound thing is not an attempt >>to narrow the range; just a means of once again raising the possibility >>that "innovative" poetry & experiment might be organized on a whole >>different set of paradigms. I'm not saying that's not already happening= =85 > >This discussion about 'paradigm' shifts has me examining again something I am just reading now in Gary Taylor's book and then comparing it to some remark by Octavio Paz in the 'Preface to his book ONE EARTH, FOUR OR FIVE WORLDS, which I first read a few weeks back. > >For example, > >>From CULTURAL MEMORY by Gary Taylor: > >"In his book _The Structure of Scientific Revolution_ , Thomas Kuhn argues that science does not 'progress' in the orderly, incremental way we usually assume; instead, scientific revolutions turn the established worldview on its head, replacing one paradigm with another. The new paradigm is not necessarily better; it is just different, so different that it cannot really be compared with the old paradigm, because there is no common standard of measurement that both paradigms would accept. Kuhn divides the history of science into brief periods of revolution, when paradigms shift, and much longer periods of normal science, when researchers investigate technical problems defined by the prevailing stable paradigm. We especially remember the revolutionary periods and the scientist associated with them because they generated an exceptionally large intellectual stimulus. . .=85" > > >>From Octavio Paz: > >"Like the Mayas, who had two ways of measuring time, the 'short count' and the 'long count', French historians have introduced the distinction between 'long duration' and 'short duration' in historical processes. The first designates the broad rhythms that, through modifications that are imperceptible at first, alter old structures and create new ones, thus bringing gradual but irreversible social changes. Examples include increases and decreases in population, which are still not entirely explained; the evolution of sciences and technologies; the discovery of new natural resources or their gradual exhaustion; the erosion of social institutions; the transformation of mentalities and sensibilities. . ." > >" 'Short duration' is the domain par excellence of the event : falling empires, nascent States, revolutions, wars, presidents resigning, monica lewinsky, assassinated dictators, crucified prophets, sanctimonious crucifiers, ken starr, etc. [yes, I made a clever revision here] > >History is often compared to a woven fabric, the work of many hands; without deciding on a pattern beforehand, and without knowing exactly what they are doing, these hands weave threads of every color together until a succession of figures, at once familiar and enigmatic, appears on the loom. From the point of view of 'short duration', the figures are not repeated : history is constant creation, novelty, the realm of the unique and singular. From the standpoint of 'long duration', repetitions, ruptures, and renewals can be perceived: rhythms. Both visions are true." > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=3D1 > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 23:29:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Saving Private Henry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Perhaps it was all the war talk around here lately that made Robert Archambeau dive behind that tree. Robert! You can come out now! No more shrapnel! (Stephen Ambrose -- that crusty old fart! -- turns out to have been Spielberg's technical advisor on matters warlike and was on McNeil-Lehrer tonight . . .) I apologize for letting Henry defend that hill all by himself for the last few days -- as someone who usually agrees with him (well . . . about 75% of the time), it was cowardly on my part not to have joined in until now. But I was just waiting to hear how Gary Sullivan fared on his vacation quest. But seriously folks, the sad truth is -- I'm having to fight off becoming a double agent, because I've been giving a close (academic) reading to Marjorie Perloff's _Writing Poetry in the Age of Media_ (which many of you receiving this transmission will already know). And Henry -- she hasn't convinced me, but she sure is asking the right questions! Listen to this, just from the first page of the Preface: She quotes a line from Diane Ward which is the KIND of thing I think Henry has been complaining about -- "Dark windows in which a list followed by facts in us erupt chilling comparing" -- and then says: "Our first response to such 'sentences,' especially when there is a whole paragraph or page of them, is that we are the victims of some kind of scam. There are, so the common wisdom goes, a bunch of mandarin poets around . . . who have some sort of murky relationship to Deconstruction and write meaningless and pretentious trash that they pass off as literature. . . . For reasons unclear, a significant body of poetry (or what claims to be poetry) has been produced that is unnaturally _difficult_ -- eccentric in its syntax, obscure in its language, and mathematical rather than musical in its form." She took the words right out of my mouth -- my mouth in the early 1980s, that is. Veterans of this list will perhaps remember my disinclination to appreciate the project of Mssrs. Silliman, Watten, et al back in those days (and by the way, I was glad that Kent, in his initial response to Henry, was also critical of the "there is no referent" philosophy). But Marjorie, in this book, has set the bar for critics like myself at a very great height. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop vaulting, just that I really recommend this book as some of the more stimulating -- and infuriating! -- criticism I've read. I'll have more to say (perhaps only in the form of backchannels to Marjorie) about this opus as I get further along, but have two questions immediately: one, is the "aspirational thought" of John Cage that she cites really a model for anyone here? That is, are we bound, as current practitioners, to find a way OUT of our present mess, rather than just present the mess? And two, she quotes our List Master as differentiating between modes of fragmentation, preferring the kind that "reflects a conception of meaning as prevented by conventional narration . . . dipping into other possibilities available within language." In this formulation and others I've seen promoting "discovery," I smell the vague but undeniable odor of mystification -- we can never say exactly WHAT those "other possibilities" are. Fair enough, but when does the endless spiraling outward become simple bad faith? Joe Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 04:15:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: Other Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Jack Kimball has asked me to post a list of some interesting names in current Brit poetry. I'll do my best to give you, say, 50, very much off the top of my head, with absolutely no order of importance implied by the list. You see, what I'm really asked to do here is create an anthology via the immediacy of e-mail. This can't be a list of that kind: it would take research and fuller memory recall. I've probably forgotten my oldest friend! At present, most US views of the British scene are somewhat narrowed by the preoccupations both of US poets and British poets who have so far compiled the names or arrange the conferences. Nothing especially wrong with that, but below is a fairly non-partisan list from someone who hasn't lived in Britain for nearly two decades and will miss quite a bit, I expect. May other Brits correct me. A "T" means I have at least some contact or channel, sometimes close but not always. If Jack or anyone else is interested in following up on a name and I can help, I'd be glad to (within reason). Andrew Duncan T (edits Angel Exhaust) Helen MacDonald T J.H. Prynne T (renewed interest in his work after the "Stars and Tigers" essay, has become more and more concentrated in lexis more and more difficult.) Denise Riley T (not producing much poetry just now, but still one of the finest of all) Aaron Williamson T (balletic performance artist, fully deaf, still interesting on- page) Nicholas Johnson T (runs Etruscan Reader series and conferences) Karlien ven den Beukel T W.N. Herbert T (Scots, sometimes writes in Dundee dialect) Bill Griffiths T (has long been one of the most individual of poets writing out of London, runs the Eric Mottram archive) Allen Fisher T (one of the older writers to have kept most constantly innovative) Catherine Walsh (said to be a good performer) Miles Champion T (spending a lot of time in the States) Grace Lake T Wendy Mulford T (Used to run Reality Street editions with: Ken Edwards (who continues these editions) Maggie O'Sullivan T Iain Sinclair T (Edited Conductors of Chaos, see below) Harriet Tarlo T Randolph Healy (with Joyce below part of the non-mainstream Irish) Trevor Joyce Tom Leonard T (Scots, strong, political work) Carlyle Reedy (good performer) Caroline Bergvall T (again, a good performer) Merle Collins (With next two. Being out of the country, I don't know much E.A. Markham about African-British, Caribbean-British, and Asian-British Jack Mapanje writing. It's difficult to get the publications and I'd dearly love to be better informed. Fred d'Aiguar has been an important editor/poet. Can someone help me here?) Ralph Hawkins T Alaric Sumner (works with sound and performance motifs) Tom Raworth T (currently the Brit poet best known by the non-Academic States writers) Lee Harwood T (has been writing strongly again) Andrew Crozier T (his work has recently reappeared: one of the keenest intellects in British poetry) Adrian Harding (Scots, living in Paris) T David Chaloner T Anthony Barnett Victoria Vaughan T Simon Pettet (New York resident) Fiona Templeton Helen Kidd Peter Riley (publishes Poetical Histories) Tim Atkins Martin Corless-Smith (in States) John Wilkinson T Drew Milne T Khaled Hakim (has sort of invented an English of his own from semi-phonetics. I don't know him -- he's quite young.) D.S. Marriott T Tony Baker (in France) T Ric Caddel T John Kinsella (works out of England right now, but properly regarded as Australian) T Tony Lopez T Rod Mengham T (runs the Equipage series) Alan Halsey T Barry MacSweeney T (recently returned to the scene) Tom Pickard T cris cheek T (works a lot with performance) Lawrence Upton (good contact for the small press scene and activity generally) Gilbert Adair ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:15:42 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from suantrai@iol.ie ---------- > From: Safdie Joseph >................I've been giving a close (academic) > reading to Marjorie Perloff's _Writing Poetry in the Age of Media_ >.........................................two questions > immediately: one, is the "aspirational thought" of John Cage that she > cites really a model for anyone here? That is, are we bound, as current > practitioners, to find a way OUT of our present mess, rather than just > present the mess? And two, she quotes our List Master as differentiating > between modes of fragmentation, preferring the kind that "reflects a > conception of meaning as prevented by conventional narration . . . > dipping into other possibilities available within language." In this > formulation and others I've seen promoting "discovery," I smell the > vague but undeniable odor of mystification -- we can never say exactly > WHAT those "other possibilities" are. Fair enough, but when does the > endless spiraling outward become simple bad faith? On point one: the thought of poets of any stripe setting themselves the project of finding pat answers is an unhappy one. Yet there are no neutral descriptions, and even should one attempt to "just present the mess" such a presentation will insensibly move in certain directions. I would consider the principle of "aspirational thought" to be satisfied if the writer can keep the ambiguities of the situation in suspension rather than crystallising prematurely. Which I think fits well with Cage's awareness that chance and cadence have the same root. On point two: . My initial reaction to fragmented syntax was that it may be used as a probe which does not impose any particular hierarchy on the possibilities it discovers. And it seemed that the experience of the reading was an inseparable part of the text. Which is why I think it is hard to talk about such poetry without falling a little flat: the analysis of a rollercoaster ride in terms of velocity and pitch is not quite the same as the real thing. The what of those "other possibilities" can be indicated explicitly, if not definitively, in terms of individual texts, and I am strongly tempted to demonstrate this, only an unwillingness to inflict what may be entirely personal lucubrations preventing me. Randolph Healy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 02:46:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: L A N G U ( I M ) A G E in Seattle Sept. 5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You're invited to an evening of langu(im)age, an opening/reading/party at The Globe Cafe in Seattle. VISUAL POETRY OPENING: The pornomorphs will be loosed upon the unsuspecting (but not entirely innocent) patrons of The Globe for a month or two (as long as Robin can stand them) in high res, color wax prints hanging from the ceiling and adorning the walls. Some of the pornomorphs are in a preliminary Web state currently at http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews/vispo/images/GarbOTheGods/SexGoddess.html. These images are drawn from porn on the Net, so if you find such things offensive, please pass on this one. They will be accompanied by the texts on the Web. The other side of the Globe will feature high res, wax print versions of some of the images at http://www.islandnet.com/~jandrews/mocambo/jimvispo.htm and their accompanying texts. POETRY: I'm very proud to have Joseph F. Keppler, Robin Schultz, and margareta waterman reading/performing at the Globe with me on this evening of langu(im)age. The four of us share a passion for all the dimensions of language. margareta waterman wrote the primordial alphabet, cloud coop songs, occam's razor, and several others she's published, along with the works of many other poets, within her nine muses books. Joseph is the editor of Poets.Painters.Composers and is a poet, photographer, and sculptor. His readings are legendary, as is his innovative, powerful work in multiple mediums. Robin is the owner of The Globe Cafe. His most recent book is LOVE, OR, which evolved from responses to a wall-sized visual poem Robin did in the cafe. The Globe is itself an interesting work of visual poetry featuring visual poets and their work constantly. There's a visual poem on the ceiling. Until recently there were phrases dangling from the ceiling. And they paint over the full wall mural each year with a new one by a different writer. It also features a great collection of small press poetry available to the patrons. O yes and the food! The Globe is maybe the only vegan restaurant in Seattle. Party time. TIME AND PLACE: Saturday, September 5, 8 pm, The Globe Cafe, 1531 14th, Seattle, WA Refreshments and The Globe's excellent vegan victuals available. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 05:20:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Huh Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Bob Corbett writes, "Yeats' strategies were not "disjunctive" as such, and he created a system that aspired to totalization, but nevertheless, there is an esoteric, some would say, obscurantist, aspect to his work that makes it resonate much with Ron Silliman's work as it does with Robert Hass's." Huh? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 06:19:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Carter Subject: phasic thin the nest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched; charset="us-ascii" Ken Beacon: an other in it-zone relating itself to ensliced vinyl perceptics 'n' name subtleties available veil as label with an eye for battle effects in the brain of subcontinental scentsatiations 'n' red roots gathering the lather link lock 'n' lull bed-lute slathering the swelling bottle(d spices) spied-upon veiled philosophical questions the discomfort at having said what shall come about befloor-lit before it buzzes its versed breath of reel eggs hen insist dense city-dweller even if not that much bitter nor abyss doubt Nora B. Hiss doubt the hat's lid the hat slid (write off) through d' pen t' yonder blurry blue be the plural love us all 'n' each the singular huzzle 'n' buzzle a fit fall t' the glownd rownd the way from grown control occur us hue-weaver shower-tangents utter hence for worth-name subtleties available with an eye for battle I melt foreign hour the new word order betwine wager 'n' sin so often than not do quantifiable distance t' speak huff 'n' puff most simultaneously mutually debilitating relief 'n' squander the total exterior resources dry as the moon in the sky contradistinguishing itself from the waters of space-mind and heart of the picture which in this case is no image whatsoever the reverie might madly be in each instance some think new so...so let's order a new letter in with the well-oiled though now quite dirty in the desirable sort of swayin' list of items and eye brightens the asymmetries all araw the way the path the math hath in it the moist inner difference the divine and dynamic potential not just waiting idly in a lie nor lying waitingly in an idol http://www.inch.com/~abz/ http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Cafe/3361/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:07:23 -0400 Reply-To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donald Wellman Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media Comments: To: suantrai@iol.ie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This post suggested (for me) a way to cut through the many questions that have arisen recently (Henry's) concerning the value of a disjunctive poetics (its liveliness, how moribund, how vitalistic). It seems to me that if a poem is disjunctive at the level of syntax (fragmented syntax) then it will deny the reader an experience of closure (the rounding out of musical or mathematical form). This has always seemed to me the primary source of resistance to disjunctive poetries. They prevent the reader from walking away with a sense of having got the meaning. They prevent my appropriation of their language, of the language. Personally, I am not opposed to this state of affairs--meaning I do not need/want/desire to make the poem mine, to file it away in my heart as I have some sonnets by Shakespeare, for instance. Disjunctive poetics requires a different reading process than that. Even at the level of the glowing jolt (unexpected irony, often a pun), I do not find the Emersonian holistic fragment. What some seem to be asking then is this: is it possible to find coherence at some level in a poem that is disjunctive on the surface? To find such would allow them to walk away from the poem "owning" it. The criticism may boil down to: "how much unownable poetry do we need?" One response is: "we now have so much that the project seems 'moribund.'" My counter question seems necessarily then: are there disjunctions other than those of the surface? Oh my mind boils with disjunctions and they do not cohere? but I do not look to disjunction for redemption. I look at it as I look down the barrel of a "fact" that I distrust. It speaks to something reeling in me when it does speak and does not give me words for it. What I think is interesting about some language poetry is that seems to be something other than a mirror of otherwise inarticulable disjunctions (that would make it surrealistic poetry). It gives language then a presence that is materialistic, language becomes one of those facts that I have stared at reeling--facts that for me might be likened to the timbre of some music I love rather than its form or coherence. Don Wellman Don Wellman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:48:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media Comments: To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com In-Reply-To: <35C6EB6A.3EF2CA57@ma.ultranet.com> from "Donald Wellman" at Aug 4, 98 07:07:23 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Donald Wellman writes: "It seems to me that if a poem is disjunctive at the level of syntax (fragmented syntax) then it will deny the reader an experience of closure (the rounding out of musical or mathematical form). This has always seemed to me the primary source of resistance to disjunctive poetries. They prevent the reader from walking away with a sense of having got the meaning. They prevent my appropriation of their language, of the language. Personally, I am not opposed to this state of affairs--meaning I do not need/want/desire to make the poem mine, to file it away in my heart as I have some sonnets by Shakespeare, for instance. Disjunctive poetics requires a different reading process than that. Even at the level of the glowing jolt (unexpected irony, often a pun), I do not find the Emersonian holistic fragment." I think this is essentially true, though I'd want to differ slightly - one *can* appropriate the disjunctive poem: it's just that, one can't do it unselfconsciously - that is, one can't do it without being painfully aware that one has done it: I think must of the discomfort over, say, language poetry, stems from this: that readers bred on staid narrative or formalist poem do not want any conscious responsibility for the generation of meaning, they would rather entertain the fiction that they have "got it" - that there can be a transcendental (though also very ordinary) connection between a) authorial intention and readerly recption; or b) between langauge itself (as deity) and the worshipping reader. The only difference, then, between, say, a Perelman poem and a Mary Jo Salter poem - so far as reading practice is concerned - is that there is a codified set of reading-rules for the latter which aids the reader so-inclined in his/her pursuit of that "got it" feeling. In contrast, since Perelman "re-instates the vague" as Wm James put it, the reader has a heightened awareness of her/his own complicity, and either says, "fuck this" and puts the book down, or accepts a more dialogic/antiphonal poetic model. This doesn't imply that things don't "mean," just that they mean differently along different points in a continuum. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:32:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: H=E=N=R=Y In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:39:52 PDT from On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:39:52 PDT Mark DuCharme said: >I disagree. I don't believe language, even in the texts of the dreaded >, CAN be private property. I believe language is >inherently communal. This presumption changes how one _reads_ such >texts-- de-esotericizes them, if you will. Perhaps this, I think >strange, belief in language as private property in modernist & >postmodernist writing (since I assume you would probably extend your >critique not just toward Langpo, but perhaps also to Stein, Zukofsky's >_"A"_, Un Coup de Des, _Finnegan's Wake_, etc.) explains why you are >seemingly incapable of reading these texts with pleasure, or without >annoyance. Whereas someone like me, who doesn't share your belief in >language as private property in or outside of these writings, IS capable >of reading these texts as non-esoteric-- as a liberation & a pleasure. Well, the property bit could take us into distant realms of abstraction... but I guess it seems simplistic to say that language is "inherently communal". A big problem for the writer is to find the language that CAN be shared in a way that gets across what she or he wants to get across. And my point was that the canonizing-publishing process gradually applies the same "property effects" to experimental poetry as to the rest. But this isn't the interesting issue. You're wrong that I'm incapable of enjoying innovative or disjunctive work - I think Don Wellman's description of his response to some Language poetry was true & close to my own experience of it. But several posts have talked about "how to get into disjunctive writing" from a sort of reader-response perspective. You have to learn to enjoy non-closure, etc. But what if coming from the WRITER'S position, these modes of composition are simply NO LONGER INTERESTING? Do not reflect the goals of the writer? I think "closure" is a very weak descriptor for what the writer is after. What if postmodern perspectives & techniques do not accomplish the writer's point of view? That is what interests me about approaches that Yeats (as ONE example) can represent, in part: and I'm also talking about the micro levels of technique from a WRITER'S perspective. The idea that a synthetic approach to syntax, rhythm & meaning is just a handy way to package McMeaning ignores 95% of the fascination of the text or the performance, as far as I'm concerned. - your favorite reactionary curmudgeon, Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:16:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: Oh Henry Comments: To: Robert Archambeau In-Reply-To: <35C5D15C.53C4@LFC.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Robert Archambeau wrote: > > I thin it is demonstrable that that there is still important poetry > being written in the syntactically disjunctive mode (just now I've been > reading some by Catherine Walsh, but there are American examples too). > But my sense is also that there is a hell of a lot of mannerist late > langpo that disjoins for the sake of disjoining and that doesn't give us > anything new or powerful. And I think that the most exciting energies > in poetry in the US and elsewhere are to be found neither in the (for > lack of a better shorthand term) mainstream nor in the language poetry > tradition (see Archambeau duck behind the nearest tree, the peep out > sheepishly to see if the lead is flying). > > Who or what am I talking about? Good question....And worthy of being addressed on the List, i think. Good poetry is possible in all modes, even the very conservative ones favored by Henry. He offers **no** substance of critique regarding particular poets or poems; i see nothing to engage in his snipes. I find Robert's bit quoted above far too broad and abstract to move us much further.... This reification of broad critical categories ("syntactically disjunctive mode"..ugh!) is just not very helpful. Folks are chiming in with great sanctimoniousness (like Henry's own) about how wonderful these crticisms are...Er, so far as far as i can see, the clothes have no emperor. Thus far. Neo-conservatisim rools, i guess. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:33:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Academic exchange value In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks david this is exactly the kind of "salvage work" and rhetoric that goes nowhere and one reason i find institutional histories, etc not very inspiring. however, may i suggest that a lot of essays on poets and poetry (like, i hope, my own) dont follow the model you suggest below? kristin ross's writing on rimbaud, watten's ILS piece, michael davidson's recent work on the 50s --all go far beyond championing "underdog" poets. At 3:28 PM -0400 8/3/98, David Kellogg wrote: >No matter who you're talking about, the "academic exhange value" of any >contemporary poetry is assumed to lie in its ability to be _promoted_ in >the critical essay or review. Whether you're writing on John Hollander or >Charles Bernstein, Amy Clampitt or Susan Howe, academic value is wrenched >out of poetry as a relentless critical project. Pick your own favorite >essay on a poet and see if it matches this rough structure: > >1. Most contemporary poetry is [moribund, pathetic, too academic, not >academic enough, too trendy, not trendy enough, too much form, too much >content]. [Pages of examples] > >2. The work of [poet's name here], however, bucks this trend. As a >result, [poet's name here]'s work has been ignored. Critics have hitherto >been unable to deal with this poet's [intellect, emotion, epistemology, >sexuality, bad attitude, vocabulary] and have written [poet's name here] >out of the canon. I propose to correct this oversight. > >3. [Pages of counter-examples from the work of the poet] > >4. If only the world would pay attention to [poet's name here], we >would all love poetry. Pity the world doesn't follow my shining >example. > > >---------- > >Now THERE'S a bankrupt tradition for you: yet it seems to be viable all >over the place, certainly not restricted to any one wing of the academic >critical establishment. > >Cheers, >David >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:55:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Shouting Rock and Roll in Prvt. Ryan In-Reply-To: <53A8205652@student.highland.cc.il.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > A small thing, and I know the discussion on the film is pretty much > over, but did anyone else notice that as the Germans are rolling > into town in the final battle scene one of the American > soldiers scurries to his position and calls out, "Rock n' Roll boys!" > > I'm pretty sure I heard this. If so, this would be out of time, > wouldn't it? How could a film like this, where even the boots are > the real item, get something like that wrong? Or maybe it was a > little joke on purpose? > > Kent Fairly interesting.....There are two points here, Kent. One is the history of "rebellious, iconoclastic" rock&roll in relation to the US military machine. While playing hendrix and other disturbingly new r&r has often been portrayed as a semi-rebel behavior, among grunts in Nam, the military has recovered enuff to (albeit below the level of stated policy) try to associate this "all american" form with their little adventures. Cf. the playing of r&r at Noriega to drive him out of the embassy where he was holed up. In general, this is an extension of the gradual appropriation of R&R by the right as a symbol of machismo and jingoist national distinctiveness. (Within this story there are many little mini-dramas, like Reagan and the song "Born in the USA," etc.) the second question is the history of the phrase itself. By far the best approach to this, at least as a place to start, are the essays collected in Nick Tosches' book "Unsung Heroes of Rock & Roll." The cumulative thesis of that book is that the label should be used for pretty much any strong-beat, straight-ahead music that somewhere used the phrase "rock" or "rock and roll" for sex. Whether it originated as blues, jump-blues, piano boogie, or even came from a white artist with country roots like Hard Rock Gunter. This thesis is not widely accepted among rock critics/scholars, to offer an understatement. (But while simple-minded, it's not the worst way to approach a thorny historical/theoretical issue) But Tosches' claim for what can be called r&r music is beside the point: in the process of making his claim, he traces dozens of uses of the phrase in white and (mostly) black music before Berry, Little Rich. and Elvis. Some certainly in the second half of the 1930s, as the so-called Bluebird Beat uptempo sound was nudging country blues in the direction of a city feel, and boogie piano and early efforts by Big Joe Turner and similar shouters were rushing toward jump-blues, the black form that most directly fed into "R&R." So the short answer has two parts: Yes, the phrase was fairly common on the air waves, pretty much exclusivley as a very ungenteel, crude reference to sex; and No, unless the soldier shouting it was Black, he was *not very likely* to know the phrase well and have it on the tip of his tongue... So this is a very direct and strong piece of anachronism, tying in to (what i mentioned at first) the recent macho americanist/militarist appropriation of the phrase.... -- Mark P. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:54:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Re: Academic exchange value In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > thanks david this is exactly the kind of "salvage work" and rhetoric that > goes nowhere and one reason i find institutional histories, etc not very > inspiring. however, may i suggest that a lot of essays on poets and poetry > (like, i hope, my own) dont follow the model you suggest below? kristin > ross's writing on rimbaud, watten's ILS piece, michael davidson's recent > work on the 50s --all go far beyond championing "underdog" poets. You're welcome. I agree with you on all these works, including your own; but their refusal to fit that mold is one reason, perhaps, why their _own_ value is sometimes viewed suspiciously by perplexed readers who want the same-old-same-old. The effort to carve out a new cultural-poetic critical writing is something I'm keenly interested in, as you know (and something I view as basically collaborative, including all the above, myself, and many others) -- readers' resistance to that critical work is buttressed by the dominance of a stale "salvage" model that always-already presents itself as novel, even if its form is predictable in its entirety. > At 3:28 PM -0400 8/3/98, David Kellogg wrote: > >No matter who you're talking about, the "academic exhange value" of any > >contemporary poetry is assumed to lie in its ability to be _promoted_ in > >the critical essay or review. Whether you're writing on John Hollander or > >Charles Bernstein, Amy Clampitt or Susan Howe, academic value is wrenched > >out of poetry as a relentless critical project. Pick your own favorite > >essay on a poet and see if it matches this rough structure: > > > >1. Most contemporary poetry is [moribund, pathetic, too academic, not > >academic enough, too trendy, not trendy enough, too much form, too much > >content]. [Pages of examples] > > > >2. The work of [poet's name here], however, bucks this trend. As a > >result, [poet's name here]'s work has been ignored. Critics have hitherto > >been unable to deal with this poet's [intellect, emotion, epistemology, > >sexuality, bad attitude, vocabulary] and have written [poet's name here] > >out of the canon. I propose to correct this oversight. > > > >3. [Pages of counter-examples from the work of the poet] > > > >4. If only the world would pay attention to [poet's name here], we > >would all love poetry. Pity the world doesn't follow my shining > >example. > > > > > >---------- > > > >Now THERE'S a bankrupt tradition for you: yet it seems to be viable all > >over the place, certainly not restricted to any one wing of the academic > >critical establishment. > > > >Cheers, > >David > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >David Kellogg Duke University > >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric > >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 > >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ > > Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 07:01:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Shouting Rock and Roll in Prvt. Ryan Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I still think they were saying 'lock & load.' ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:10:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry G Subject: Re: Oh Henry In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:16:59 -0400 from On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:16:59 -0400 Mark Prejsnar said: > >Good poetry is possible in all modes, even the very conservative ones >favored by Henry. He offers **no** substance of critique regarding >particular poets or poems; i see nothing to engage in his snipes. > >I find Robert's bit quoted above far too broad and abstract to move us >much further.... > >This reification of broad critical categories ("syntactically disjunctive >mode"..ugh!) is just not very helpful. > >Folks are chiming in with great sanctimoniousness (like Henry's own) about >how wonderful these crticisms are...Er, so far as far as i can see, the >clothes have no emperor. Thus far. Neo-conservatisim rools, i guess. Mark, if you use the word "conservative" one more time, I might start to think you are stooping to broad critical categories yourself. You want me to have a roll call of some of the hundreds of "disjunctive" poets? It's unfair to talk about pervasive styles? What is poetics anyway? Ad hominem snipes at "reactionaries"? The naked emperors in my battle plan are the babies of the postmod scholars - those who lay claim to be the few scholars attending to "contemporary" work - who have all the young college students getting headaches over their turgid academic poetry. But you stick with the ad hominems, Mark - it's a way of showing that post-lang people can still get personal. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:02:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: should we criminalize mediocrity? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Should we criminalize mediocrity? There are practical details to be worked out... So few of us (brilliant intellectuals) left to run the nation And who among us is not mediocre? Though to have escaped detection for so many years is itself a form of genuis. Conversely, the prisons would be filled with insecure genuises Who would sooner confess their mediocrity than endure the agonizing wait... On another note: Henry declares American poetry at an impasse--but he doesn't read his own contemporaries, since they are not necessary to his own writing. All other poets fall into some category which disqualifies them in advance--New York poets are snide art-world groupies, Language Poets are ruining poetry, New Formalists are beyond the pale, etc... except, of course, for Henry Gould, reader of the great Russians. Is this a fair paraphrase? I would suggest more generosity of response to one's own time. "as if it would never leave me and were / the inexorable product of my own time." (FO'H). Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:11:39 -0400 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: a few basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One of the most helpful theoretical claims to emerge from the recent decades has to do with what a poem does. Ultimately, this claim is useful to cobble together an approximate measure for all kinds of poetry, including more normative types accepted throughout most of the literary establishment. (One thing lost in the last few days, partly because of the high-intensity of Henry's rhetoric, is that almost all financial/institutional resources in our culture, are still geared toward lionizing and supporting "art writing" of a very conservative sort, which actually quite directly dismisses most vibrant writing as irrelevant..) But mostly this theoretical claim is about what less mainstream types of writing are setting out to try to do... The claim is, that poetry can and does actually create and set in motion, and constitute, an experience. It is not (or should not be) about evoking, recapturing, describing or narrating an "experience." It is, in and of itself, experience. This seems a very uncontroversial claim, if put forward about Monet or Pollack, Mahler or Ornette, John Zorn or the Mekons, about many dance pieces. Even about the theater of Richard Foreman and his disciple Robert Wilson (though they have their neo-conservative detractors). But it is still hard to establish this as a working premise among poetry folks. None the less, i'm convinced that it is true. It explains part of what's going on in many of the best pieces of, say, Clark Coolidge. Within the creation of a vibrant experience, there are always *thematic resonances* ; in Raphael there are angels, in Monet there are landscapes and Parisians (and the angels and landscapes and Parisians often shimmer with the tensions of history and perception..) , in a Mekon song there may be 5 different social issues, twisted through 3 layers subjective angst.... In all these forms, for the thematic "subject" to register, there has to first be an electricity in the paint or the guitars (or the words). But the theory of recent decades points to a regard for the feel and excitement of poetry, as in Coolidge. A poet for whom thematic resonances are primary, in a sense, is Susan Howe. Yet her work *creates an experience* ... The simultaneous marshelling (martialing?) of sound and vizpo word patterns, of difficulty wading thru thick colliding lines on the page, drags the reader into a historical morass of suspicion, confrontation, violence and war.. I use the word "resonance" to emphasize that good writing can come in all sorts of styles, including ones where the "subject" is embodied in the text-texture; thus, not using normal syntax or even normal words IS NOT THE ISSUE (which is why i dissent from the majority, who take henry's broad generalizations seriously) If we're thinking about work of the last few decades, that connects up with Oppen and Zuke and Stein (and Vallejo and Celan), then the issue is **the creation of vibrant experience through understanding and working with your medium** This point of view leaves plenty of room to admire and understand a fine lyric written with more familiar verbal gestures and sytax, such as Henry's "Notes on a Still Life," which i published in issue #4 of my mag, Misc. Proj. There are many different ways to kick consciousness in the direction of an experience. But this analysis is tied historically to a partisan stance in favor of verbal adventurousness. I believe what i'm refering to here is partly what Ron had in mind in his comment (in ILS at the Perelman symposium?) that there was still a long way to go in fully realizing a poetry that transcends, or moves away from, "aboutness." Indeed, there is plenty of room for *greater disjunction* among the tools that prosody can reach for, at this juncture. No doubt many people are doing bad poetry that uses forms of disjunction. Not sure that this is stunning news to most of us..Far more bad poetry is being published (in more high-profile contexts) using the smooth sytactic flow HG likes. But ultimately it is much more interesting to pursue directions of poetry that are generative and risk-taking, and have a vector, soaring quality, using different tools; fear of "disjunction" (an inadequate term for opnness to many different modes of text-structuring) seems uninteresting and unhelpful. Mark P. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:09:26 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: should we criminalize mediocrity? In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:02:53 -0500 from On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 10:02:53 -0500 MAYHEW said: > >On another note: Henry declares American poetry at an impasse--but he >doesn't read his own contemporaries, since they are not necessary to his >own writing. All other poets fall into some category which disqualifies >them in advance--New York poets are snide art-world groupies, Language >Poets are ruining poetry, New Formalists are beyond the pale, etc... >except, of course, for Henry Gould, reader of the great Russians. Is this >a fair paraphrase? > >I would suggest more generosity of response to one's own time. "as if it >would never leave me and were / the inexorable product of my own time." >(FO'H). You may be right, Jonathan. I've sniffed out quite a few of them briefly - will let you know if any become necessary for me. In the meantime I'd like to remind you that running as fast as I can away from American poetry of the last 20 years IS a kind of response to it - may not be generous, granted - but I've tried to sketch out some of my reasons for doing so - Henry G. the insufferable snoboob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:38:39 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: a few basics A few basic points. Yes, Mark, a poem is an experience in itself, but not only that. Art is not just about art; it's an apprehension of experience and reality. I have tried to suggest that the contrast of Yeats/Pound might reveal a DIFFERENT PARADIGM for your vaunted "verbal adventurousness". An adventurousness revealed within a pattern of normal or simple speech structures. But the partisanship you subscribe to is not open to this idea: your strategy is to set up the exemplars (Clark Coolidge, Susan Howe, undoubtedly fine practitioners) - claim the theoretical high ground (so much MORE bad middlebrow poetry is written in traditional sentences) - and defend the pillbox, with its motto: explode the forms (sentence, stanza, etc.). And let the new generations of radical resisters rise, proud & strong, unable to spell or write a complex sentence, but hey - it's poetry. My dislike for this front is not a matter of snobbery, however. I disagree with the basic apprehension of reality underlying it, the philosophical bases. But let's not get into a thing about politics or postmodernism. BECAUSE art is about more than itself - these debates bring out - or seem to bring out - IDEOLOGICAL differences over what "reality" is, where our commitments lie. And that leads to more long boring abstract debates... - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:56:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: ron o'silliman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" sure and havent I been after telling Ron this for decades now, tis time to come out of that Celtic Twilight into the sun of common day. Same for Bob O'Hass also, him and Ron being alike as two peas in the pod. The mystifications of "Meditation at Lagunitas" smells of the druid censer no less than those of "Ketjak" and "Tjanting." Appears that not until the Liffey flows with Guinness shall we hear the plain speech of common sense from these two boyos, (brothers, tis rumored, though the connection has been hushed up). On a seperate but related issue, I would love for Randolph Healey to demonstrate his argued point, just that any poem by RH boils my potatoes. David O'Boy Bromige ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 19:57:51 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: basics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "poetry is derived (obviously) from everyday existence--(real or ideal)" Zukofsky "first there is need--then--the way--then the name--then the formula " Reznikoff ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:03:43 -0400 Reply-To: Andrew D Epstein Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew D Epstein Subject: Re: should we criminalize mediocrity? Comments: To: MAYHEW In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jonathan Mayhew wrote: >>I would suggest more generosity of response to one's own time. "as if it would never leave me and were / the inexorable product of my own time." (FO'H).>> While I agree with Jonathan's call for greater generosity to our contemporaries, I thought it was interesting that he quoted O'Hara on this. I think that line speaks more to O'Hara's desire to have his own poetry be as contemporary as possible and has less to do with the poetry of his time written by others... and remember his comment in "Statement for the New American Poetry," where his annoyance sounds a bit like Henry with one major distinction: "I dislike a great deal of contemporary poetry -- all of the past you read is usually quite great -- but it is a useful thorn to have in one's side." I think that last clause makes all the difference. This discussion also reminds me of O'Hara's quip about "mediocrity" and the poetry of his peers that he didn't like, when asked to comment on it: "It'll slip into oblivion without my help." Take care, Andrew ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:15:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: poetry in the age of medication Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Poets here to ruin poetry? Youre goddam right we are! Whats the point in leaving it just the way we found it? I HATE POETRY . Poetry that seduced me with its (and my) worst impulses when I was utterly vulnerable to its insinuations!? Poetry the molester of children's minds? The Trauma of Poetry, of having been poetized, can never be forgiven never cured in therapy. Just about any of the poetry that we call Maindrainins doest look to be written from any such wounds, but it is. It's is written in denial of those wounds, it is written to protect the molester, it is written by incest victims unable to acknowledge the fatal tinkering to which they were subject while too green or too conflicted to enjoy their outrage. I exaggerate? Name me one poet you admire who left Poetry the same as it had been before. Poetry that opens my lips and shuts my mouth. Poetry that wants me to lie down and let the past roll all over me. And makes me want just that. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 09:38:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Bellamy reading in SF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, this is Dodie. If any Bay Area localites are looking for something to do next Wednesday, August 12, at 7:30, I'll be reading from The Letters of Mina Harker at A Different Light bookstore on Castro Street. They have this great carrot/ginger/parsley juice cocktail at the yogurt place next door. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:43:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: a few basics In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Henry Gould wrote: > A few basic points. Yes, Mark, a poem is an experience in itself, but > not only that. Art is not just about art; it's an apprehension of > experience and reality. No no no no no .......... Creating an experience, an experience field, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the art "being about art." A sedate exercise in writing a poem "about" a pre-existing "subject," where topical laziness kills the drive and the writing, is more "about art" than a Howe or Coolidge poem is. Good writing is a kind of perturbed severity, a confrontation with historicity and difficult living. It is complex and mobilizes sound and (may use) all possible manner of typological textual arrangement. Including various furors and strategies that middle-brow market-culture calls "nonsense" and "disjunction." (But these are inadequate words.) I was arguing before (in terms i borrow from Silliman) for a writing field-of-possibility within which at least some of the poets are "moving away from 'aboutness.' " Which (you should note, but you haven't) has NOTHING to do with not having thematic resonance. How the hell could Howe, the most deeply historical poet now writing, be "about art" fa crissakes?? You are clinging to "aboutness." I remain convinced that my field of possibilities is more interesting and exciting. But in any case i definitely reject your terms and their conceptual underpinnings. huffily, Mark ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:26:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII getting to the point of entry of particulars, the problems perhaps boiling down to (not?) finding and making articulations, as critics, readers, and writers, appropriate to quote-unquote disjunctive poetries. as has already been mentioned, "disjunctive" as a blanket term pretty much loses any valence in terms of particulars. take the line by diane ward quote by joe safdie quoted by perloff, and take another line by, say, karen mac cormack: Dark windows in which a list followed by facts us erupt chilling comparing. The point isn't just to changing points needs it overblown more than complex guarantee... can we say what/how these lines mean, where the disjunctions occur and what kind they are, give close readings that don't simply normalize the syntax back into stable meaning(s), that in turn allows us to draw larger implications for these individual works, authors, and any "camps" in which they may be said to "belong"? or how about two more examples, where the disjunction is taking place more, but not exclusively, at a level between sentences than within them: A paradox is eaten by the space around it. I'll repeat what I said. To make a city into a season is to wear sunglasses inside a volcano. He never forgets his dreams. The effect of the lack of effect. He would live against sentences. Trees here of leaf the several speakers. Tiered objects of her talking and water below. Trees of sound to broaden shadow. Damp walls will quiet things. aside from taking these passage individually, can we discern how/if, to follow donald wellman's question, there are disjuntions other than those of the surface? why/whether the first is barrett watten and the second is michael palmer? why/whether it matters? enough with the rhetorical questions. possible articulations as critics/readers: 1) close the book(s) in dismay or disgust, no meaning to get, or, whatever meaning to be had not worth the effort, the difficulties marking an area of exclusive or esoteric readership. 2) perform the apologia pro poetica sua that it strikes me perloff's commentary performs; which is not to slag perloff by any means, but again the treatises in defense of langpoesie continue to repeat the same arguments of old, cudgeling even the already converted (read: mystified?). 3) supplementary to 2), trot out critical truisms (i.e. maintain the economy of academic exchange value) about the challenges to stable reference, the resistance to meaning-as- commodity, the invitations to the reader to create meaning, etc. corollaries to 3): a) read a given poet's (or poets') work along these lines using a given theme, say, "(method)" in "(charles bernstein)"; b) offer a close reading of a few lines as synecdochally illustrative. we are in dire need of further possible articulations. we need a critical vocabulary in which to fruitfully discern and discuss the ways in which these writings are operating here. if anything we are truly lacking, rather than taking, a "theoretical high ground." this i think is one aspect of the impasse that henry finds us in, as pertains to critics and readers. the other aspect pertains to writers (dividing poetic labor as such for argument's sake). again, henry chooses for his writing not to follow such leads, a choice which should, if disagreed with, at least be respected. any choice entails risks, the risks of henry's choice being apparent in the discussion. the risks of the other choice, to follow the leads of "disjunctivity" (but again the choice is not one of such simple opposition; i can think of lise downe from toronto, whose two books show a very judicious use of disjunction woven with a very beautiful and more syntactically conventional lyricism), already suggested, if somewhat bluntly, by mark p. and others, namely "bad disjunctive writing," are indeed great. the issue of eso/exotericism is a serious one, as is the possibility that once the devices of disjunction have been laid out the writing becomes simply a matter of manipulating the devices. i wonder too, to get back to linda russo's earlier question about the institutionalization of language writing can be thought to have a part in this -- tho i can't imagine a workshop at, say, buffalo, brown, naropa, ucsd, new college, etc., in which an young writer would be told: "this is good, but it needs to be more disjunctive: work in some anacoluthon here, use more parataxis here, and torque it up a bit here..." "disjunction"'s possibilities are far from exhausted. with the further development of such devices (as opposed to their mere reiteration and recombination), however needs to come the further development of critical sensibilities to distinguish how and when the devices are operating and on what terms those operations can be said to be "effective." no division of labor here... bests, t. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:38:11 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alaric Sumner Subject: Bill Griffiths FWD Seaham Unaligned Literary & Philosophical Association Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bill Griffiths is pleased to announce a new web site at (for Seaham Unaligned Literary & Philosophical Association). This deals with local history matters, includes a talk on superstitions by Bill and a few ghost stories. It has been prepared for the internet by Bob Trubshaw of Heart of Albion Press, to whom Bill is duly grateful. =46or what we are up against, by all means visit an 'official' site like . The SULPhA site will be changed three times a year (Xmas, Easter, August), and suggestions and contributions are welcome. ---------------------- bill.griffiths@kcl.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:09:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: a few basics In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:43:20 -0400 from On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:43:20 -0400 Mark Prejsnar said: >On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Henry Gould wrote: > >> A few basic points. Yes, Mark, a poem is an experience in itself, but >> not only that. Art is not just about art; it's an apprehension of >> experience and reality. > > >No no no no no .......... > >Creating an experience, an experience field, has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do >with the art "being about art." A sedate exercise in writing a poem >"about" a pre-existing "subject," where topical laziness kills the drive >and the writing, is more "about art" than a Howe or Coolidge poem is. Good >writing is a kind of perturbed severity, a confrontation with historicity >and difficult living. It is complex and mobilizes sound and (may use) all >possible manner of typological textual arrangement. Including various >furors and strategies that middle-brow market-culture calls "nonsense" and >"disjunction." (But these are inadequate words.) But Mark, you yourself were just saying (in previous post) that poetic theory has advanced to the point of recognizing that writing/reading a poem is an experiential process. You compared it to other art forms (painting, poetry) to suggest that it's the thick textual/performative experience, not the derivable meanings, that's the thing itself. Okay. I have no problem with that. I just think that the thing itself is never just the thing itself, and stylistic choices reflect stances toward reality and history. I introduced the Yeats / Pound argument not because I'm stuck in the past, as Andrew Epstein seemed to imply, but because I knew people would find it outrageous. Susan Howe may be a deeply historical poet, but that doesn't forestall entirely different approaches to the same history (poetic and general history). - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:31:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: saving disjunctive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII sorry all, the last message shoulda had the above subject heading... hastily hitting "yes-to-send", t. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:45:03 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: Milosz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Simon DeDeo quotes Czeslaw Milosz saying that he finds American poetry wanting because, among other things, American poets write from lives that reflect: a common, monotonous reality, free of historical earthquakes; To understand where CM is coming from, and why he'd find it second nature to look for "historical earhquakes" in poetry, it helps not only to think about him in the context of his own experiences in war-torn Poland, but to think of the whole tradition of Polish poetry that, until recently, was overwhelmingly vatic, historical and Romantic (Shelley plays well in Warsaw). The idea of a public poet speaking seriously of serious things and the fate of nations has even become something of a burden for later Polish poets -- there's that whole crowd of new, O'Hara-influenced Polish poets, for example, or there's the concern with the personal and the poetics of the private moment that we see in someone like Adam Zagajewski. Zagajewski often look deceptively mainstream to many Americans, who often don't expect "historical earthquakes" in their poetry, but in Poland this is considered fairly avant-garde. Not to keep harping on _Samizdat_, but the new issue has an essay by Piotr Parlej explaining Zagajewski's relation to the Polish national tradition, as well as a couple of Adam's poems (in translation). Once I've learned more about the Polish O'Hara scene, I plan to run some of their work, too (maybe in the December issue). Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:37:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: a few basics In-Reply-To: from "Henry Gould" at Aug 4, 98 11:38:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry: "And let the new generations of radical resisters rise, proud & strong, unable to spell or write a complex sentence, but hey - it's poetry." Now, come on Henry: I realize we're in full generalizing mode at this point in the dialogue, but, as a member of the "new generation," I write one hell of a complex sentence, and am a fine speller. Moreover, I'll go toe to toe with anyone on the subject of Yeats anytime, any place. The point is this: why on earth is it so hard to believe that someone would make a very honest (read non-conspiratorial) choice to employ non-narrative rhetorical strategies without positioning herself against every strategy employed in the days of yore, in fact, without situating her verse as polemic in the least. The poet is trying to do something with the poem, to be sure, but rarely - rarely - is that thing a simple, caricatured, attempt at "explosion." I can never remember sitting down with some paper and thinking to myself, "How can I go about lingusitically exploding the world-structure?" Is this a common point of departure for anyone? The truth is, motivations range widely but also, in a sense, stay the same: some poets are interested in "the political unconscious" of form - which is simply to say they believe that, on a contextual basis, grammar and syntax can imply a politics; or more generally, that form is one "anticipatory arena where actuality and possibility, past and present, are allowed to collaborate on a history of the future" (James Livingston). Or put in the simplest form: some poets want to write in a new way because, socially speaking, they want something new. Other poets are more focussed on finding a language which feels compatible with their immediate apprehension of experience. Provided there are measures taken against self-indulgence, that's good and interesting too, isn't it? And might not parataxis of one sort or another be one viable method for these various motives? And aren't those motives acceptable and worthwhile? If your answer to these questions is yes, then I suggest you take a harder look at what is out there and what is coming out. The difficulty of Yeats is tempered by one's willingness to read Yeats long and hard - the reader patiently develops a symbolic economy that will suffice. But of course he's "Yeats": the name alone goes along way to convincing us that the effort is worth it. I know its hard to imagine b/c his context is too set in stone, his methodology too clearly a link in the chain of tradition, but would anyone be able to read, say, "Nineteen Hundred and Nineteen," devoid of context? Or, more to the point, would they bother? "Many ingenious lovely things are gone / That seemed sheer miracle to the multitude, / Protected from the circle of the moon / That pitches common things about." Without context this too becomes gibberish. What it comes down to is whether you have any real interest in the methods and contexts of these "experimental" poets. If you do, you'll take the time to have a good look and probably like much. If you don't, ah well, you won't. But I don't believe the discussion of whether these poets are "good" or "serious" is a very worthwhile discussion. Clearly, they are serious, and, in many contexts, good. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:54:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Re: In which will be found what is set forth therein Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-08-03 15:57:13 EDT, you write: << & Who is it on the list who was trying to put together a collection of Dan Davidson's work? >> Aldon -- I think that was Gary Sullivan, who's, ummm .... "vacationing" now. I've glanced "Long Division" a few times now, but haven't given it a real read yet. Never knew Dan or his work. Thanks for putting this out. best, charles ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:01:42 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: poetry in the age of medication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > > Poets here to ruin poetry? Youre goddam right we are! Whats the > point in leaving it just the way we found it? I HATE POETRY . Poetry > that seduced me with its (and my) worst impulses when I was utterly > vulnerable to its insinuations!? Poetry the molester of children's minds? > The Trauma of Poetry, of having been poetized, can never be forgiven never > cured in therapy. > > Just about any of the poetry that we call Maindrainins doest look to be > written from any such wounds, but it is. It's is written in denial of those > wounds, it is written to protect the molester, it is written by incest > victims unable to acknowledge the fatal tinkering to which they were > subject while too green or too conflicted to enjoy their outrage. > > I exaggerate? Name me one poet you admire who left Poetry the same as it > had been before. Poetry that opens my lips and shuts my mouth. Poetry that > wants me to lie down and let the past roll all over me. And makes me want > just that. > > David --YEA! THe idea--scuse me while I kiss Ezra Pound--is to make it new--is to continue in a process--or else end up like Andrew Wyeth! Todd Baron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:27:29 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: should we criminalize mediocrity? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Henry declares American poetry at an impasse--but he > doesn't read his own contemporaries I've never met him, but judging from his posts during the time I've read this list, Henry seems to read both the contemporary poets he has an immediate affection for and those he has a hard time finding a way to appreciate -- he seems to be that rare and wonderful kind of person who doesn't read only what he suspects he'll find affirming. Donald Davie was like that -- a Larkinesque Movement poet who made himself read the Black Mountain crowd and take them seriously, even if it was to eventually reject most of what they stood for. That way of going about things somethimes made Davie into a raging bull, but people like that keep us all honest and less complacent. (sidebar: Davie was the first critic I know of to understand much about Jeremy Prynne -- see the chapter in _Thomas Hardy and British Poetry_). If there are no bullets but only spitballs, hair-pulling and name-calling, I suppose I can come out from behind that tree now. R.A. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 11:47:35 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Luoma Content-Type: text/plain Bill Luoma wrote: ><> > >ok Mark D., what do you want? Just a cigarette, & a feeling of satisfaction when it's all through. Except I don't smoke. Bill L. continues: >what's your address btw, and you Todd Barron and you Pat Pritchett? 2965 13th Street Boulder, CO 80304 Ciao, --Mark DuCharme ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:58:13 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Academic exchange value In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" thanks again, and it's true, i must admit, that the reception of my work if i can be permitted so smug and grandiose a phrase has been very different in the poetry world and in the cult stud world, which has been confusing to me since the reception in the poetry world has been much warmer and more proactive than the cult studs world although i find much of the poetry world's concerns myopic and solipsistic (sp?). still, the po-folks have gotten excited about essays on kaufman and spicer/duncan, whereas in the intro to that book i make a point of saying that the kaufman essay fits most neatly into a dated "man and his work" salvage operation. the cult studs, on the other hand, to the extent that they've been interested at all, have remarked on the material about previously unpublished "naive" poets. while i myself ahve found it more interesting intellectually to write about the latter, the relatively warm response i've received from the poetry community, combined with the way my tenure process straitjacketed me into a "poetry job" (I was ordered to remove from my list of prospective tenure reviewers people who were not primarily scholars of 20th c american poetry in the narrowest sense of the term), has resulted in my gravitating away from the subjects i found of intellectual interest. At 9:54 AM -0400 8/4/98, David Kellogg wrote: >On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Maria Damon wrote: > >> thanks david this is exactly the kind of "salvage work" and rhetoric that >> goes nowhere and one reason i find institutional histories, etc not very >> inspiring. however, may i suggest that a lot of essays on poets and poetry >> (like, i hope, my own) dont follow the model you suggest below? kristin >> ross's writing on rimbaud, watten's ILS piece, michael davidson's recent >> work on the 50s --all go far beyond championing "underdog" poets. > >You're welcome. I agree with you on all these works, including your own; >but their refusal to fit that mold is one reason, perhaps, why their _own_ >value is sometimes viewed suspiciously by perplexed readers who want the >same-old-same-old. The effort to carve out a new cultural-poetic critical >writing is something I'm keenly interested in, as you know (and something >I view as basically collaborative, including all the above, myself, and >many others) -- readers' resistance to that critical work is buttressed by >the dominance of a stale "salvage" model that always-already presents >itself as novel, even if its form is predictable in its entirety. > >> At 3:28 PM -0400 8/3/98, David Kellogg wrote: >> >No matter who you're talking about, the "academic exhange value" of any >> >contemporary poetry is assumed to lie in its ability to be _promoted_ in >> >the critical essay or review. Whether you're writing on John Hollander or >> >Charles Bernstein, Amy Clampitt or Susan Howe, academic value is wrenched >> >out of poetry as a relentless critical project. Pick your own favorite >> >essay on a poet and see if it matches this rough structure: >> > >> >1. Most contemporary poetry is [moribund, pathetic, too academic, not >> >academic enough, too trendy, not trendy enough, too much form, too much >> >content]. [Pages of examples] >> > >> >2. The work of [poet's name here], however, bucks this trend. As a >> >result, [poet's name here]'s work has been ignored. Critics have hitherto >> >been unable to deal with this poet's [intellect, emotion, epistemology, >> >sexuality, bad attitude, vocabulary] and have written [poet's name here] >> >out of the canon. I propose to correct this oversight. >> > >> >3. [Pages of counter-examples from the work of the poet] >> > >> >4. If only the world would pay attention to [poet's name here], we >> >would all love poetry. Pity the world doesn't follow my shining >> >example. >> > >> > >> >---------- >> > >> >Now THERE'S a bankrupt tradition for you: yet it seems to be viable all >> >over the place, certainly not restricted to any one wing of the academic >> >critical establishment. >> > >> >Cheers, >> >David >> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> >David Kellogg Duke University >> >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >> >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >> >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ >> >> > >Cheers, >David >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 14:07:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Although this might be a gross over-simplification, one of the major issues for me is that I would like the reader to be involved in 'constructing' the poem. I am aware that this goes back to Iser and there may be other sources I am not familiar with. I am also aware that I tend very much toward th incomprehensible end of the spectrum of asking the reader for input in building the experience - i tend to often be as 'difficult' in my interpersonal relations. If i am right in this would there then be 'lazy readers' and readers who are more willing to invest themselves? Some of this concern for the reader and the relationship undoubtably relates to my life as a practicing psychologist. BTW it is my impression that the field (and related fields) has abandoned focus on self-revelation, confession, self-expresion, etc. so that poetry of this type is to a large extent foundationless. [however, there are more specifically-defined and concrete areas where self-expression and 'writing' - if done right - do have effects and their efficacy has very good research support] I'll end before I wander too far away At 10:15 AM 8/4/98 +0100, you wrote: >from suantrai@iol.ie > >---------- >> From: Safdie Joseph > >>................I've been giving a close (academic) >> reading to Marjorie Perloff's _Writing Poetry in the Age of Media_ > >>.........................................two questions >> immediately: one, is the "aspirational thought" of John Cage that she >> cites really a model for anyone here? That is, are we bound, as current >> practitioners, to find a way OUT of our present mess, rather than just >> present the mess? And two, she quotes our List Master as differentiating >> between modes of fragmentation, preferring the kind that "reflects a >> conception of meaning as prevented by conventional narration . . . >> dipping into other possibilities available within language." In this >> formulation and others I've seen promoting "discovery," I smell the >> vague but undeniable odor of mystification -- we can never say exactly >> WHAT those "other possibilities" are. Fair enough, but when does the >> endless spiraling outward become simple bad faith? > >On point one: the thought of poets of any stripe setting themselves the >project of finding pat answers is an unhappy one. Yet there are no neutral >descriptions, and even should one attempt to "just present the mess" such a >presentation will insensibly move in certain directions. I would consider >the principle of "aspirational thought" to be satisfied if the writer can >keep the ambiguities of the situation in suspension rather than >crystallising prematurely. Which I think fits well with Cage's awareness >that chance and cadence have the same root. > >On point two: . My initial reaction to fragmented syntax was that it may >be used as a probe which does not impose any particular hierarchy on the >possibilities it discovers. And it seemed that the experience of the >reading was an inseparable part of the text. Which is why I think it is >hard to talk about such poetry without falling a little flat: the analysis >of a rollercoaster ride in terms of velocity and pitch is not quite the >same as the real thing. The what of those "other possibilities" can be >indicated explicitly, if not definitively, in terms of individual texts, >and I am strongly tempted to demonstrate this, only an unwillingness to >inflict what may be entirely personal lucubrations preventing me. > >Randolph Healy > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 01:49:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19980804190751.006a23bc@pop.usit.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 02:07 PM 8/4/98 -0500, you wrote: >Although this might be a gross over-simplification, one of the major >issues for me is that I would like the reader to be involved in >'constructing' the poem. I am aware that this goes back to Iser and >there may be other sources I am not familiar with. >If i am right in this would there then be 'lazy readers' and readers >who are more willing to invest themselves? I don't think it's good to label readers who don't want to take these steps as lazy. Some readers who don't want to join in the constructive process may not understand the invitation. Others simply may not want to participate in this way, while they may eagerly track down every reference in a work by Olson or Pound, which is certainly another kind of investment. What is it in various of poems which demand a reader's participation/construction, that makes the invitation to do such work, perhaps makes it rather obviously, or in a way which is encouraging? Or is this necessary? And what, in other works, makes them come across as a brick wall which resists such participation rather than inviting it? These are some of the many questions we struggle with, as I don't think, even with the most 'difficult' (and define that in Henry's way or any way you wish) poets, there is a desire to not have a readership. When I read what you have posted, I want more explanation of what you mean is involved in the reader 'constructing' the poem. I think such an act is involved in a lot of work talked about on the list, from Susan Howe to Alan Sondheim. So I'm wondering if you have a more specific idea of such reader-construction in mind. charles charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:52:19 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: an example of the fundamental contradiction of scientific analysis, typified MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Hence the entire system is TOTALLY[?!], intensely conservative, locked into itself, utterly impervious to any "hints" from the outside world. Through its properties, by the microscopic clockwork function that establishes between DNA and protein, as between organism and medium, an entirely one way relationship, this system obviously[?] defies any dialectical description. It is not Hegelian at all, but thoroughly Cartesian: the cell is indeed a machine.... Physics tells us however that--save at absolute zero, an inaccessible limit--no microscopic entity can fail to undergo quantum perturbations, whose ACCUMULATION WITHIN A MACROSCOPIC SYSTEM WILL SLOWLY BUT SURELY ALTER ITS STRUCTURE."---from Chance and Necessity by Jacques Monod --- What happened to the "totally...conservative " "Cartesian" "machine" in the face of "quantum perturbations?" Well, within an experimental context, e.g. analytically, the 'totally conservative system' finds an existence. In reality (or even meta-analytically) it is impractical and, e.g. be ethically supportable as regards the environment etc.---Carlo Parcelli And Monod won the Dynamite Prize. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:11:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: a few basics, a few specifics In-Reply-To: from "Mark Prejsnar" at Aug 4, 98 12:43:20 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry just sent this to me, having hit his daily list limit, & I thought I’d post it & use it as a way to get a little more concrete/specific in my arguments: "Mike, I never said "your generation" or any generation of "disjunctive" [sorry] poets weren't good, okay? What I did was suggest that a focus on the distinction between a Yeats approach & a Pound approach, along the lines of overall synthesis/disjunction of poetic materials, is not an abstract or dated proposition. The underlying assumption of your remarks & those of Mark P. & others is that you represent the avant-garde, the innovative, the exploratory, etc. But you all don't make a good case for that by defending the ramparts whenever a completely different paradigm of writing poetry is suggested. - Henry Gould" First, I can’t resist pointing out that Yeats and Pound don’t represent a dichotomy - as Yeats’s secretary Pound was an observant student and learned a lot (the book The Stone Cottage details this). I don’t mean this to be catty - it actually helps me make a larger point, namely, that our either/or approach to arguments about poetic innovation gets in the way any attempt to discuss actual details in the poetic landscape (and vice versa). Though I hate to use myself as an example, I’m a good case in point: my biggest influence as a college student was Robert Cording, a professor at my college and a good poet who most people would consider mainstream/normative, whatever label you might like to apply. Through him I read Keats, Wordsworth, Yeats, Frost, Stevens, Williams, Bishop, Lowell, others. Now, I still read all these poets, though through a somewhat different lens and Bob Cording and I still talk about poetry, including our own, all the time. By most accounts on this list he and I should want to kill each other. But I think our relationship makes perfect sense and that the tensions are productive. Nor does it seem to me anomalous: how else to explain Donald Hall’s longtime support of Berrigan, Perelman and others. I don’t mean this to be a "why can’t we all get along" argument, far from it. But it sure would be nice to argue particulars every once in a while. Why does Donald Hall read Perelman so carefully (as he once told me he did)? Now that would be a question to answer with specifics. So, now that I’ve advocated for specifics, I should probably make use of some. I thought I’d post and discuss a couple short poems that appear in the first issue of COMBO, one by Lee Ann Brown, one by Louis Cabri, two "my generation" writers with plenty of experimental pedigree. Lee Ann’s: "Valentines" a wide-eyed leaning forward chewing on the gristle rolling our eyes in the heart of the matter glossy arches liquid maps we could use a place like this in your neighborhood Eat our vegetables they'll do a gearbox good Done details: Memo 15 of 15 Valentines, I kiss you Six million times plus one raised to the max higher power propertius anonymous I won't give you away don't put the light on unless you absolutely have to There’s so much to like here but the first thing I’d like to point out is that the last thing in the world this poem does is arrogantly break of communication with the reader. There’s even some tried-and-true poetic devices present: the linebreak at "we could use a place," for instance, which broadens the possibilities in the casual sentence, "we could use a place like this in your neighborhood." In that line break I hear Creeley’s insistence that "place is a real event - where you are is a law equal to what you are." As such, "we could use a place /" seems emblematic of a desire for *position* (subject position? positioning which would fuse "your neighborhood" with "my neighborhood"?) which runs counter to the casualness of the sentence as a whole (we could use *any* place like this) and counter to the desire for anonymity highlighted at the poem’s end. I like too the *range* in tone and style, all the different registers: that serious conclusion out of context might be mistaken for Adrienne Rich or someone - but it’s right next to "Six million times / plus one / raised to the max higher power" - this is the language of childhood "I hate you infinity plus one!") without the diminution in value which would generally go along with it - then, too, there’s "rolling our eyes / in the heart of the matter" gnarling two clichés together in a manner which bears comparison not to Rich but to Chris Stroffolino: putting these two clichés together somehow forces the words "eyes" and "heart" out of the world of abstraction and back into talk of the body. Obviously what happens there on the level of poetics (the way Brown very consciously gets this effect) has major ramifications for the poem as a whole, which is largely about bodies: bodies fed, bodies as maps, bodies revealed, bodies concealed. Anonymity is a kind of flexibility but also, potentially, a kind of concealment, and this seems to be one conflict latent in the poem. Anonymity also can suggest the dangers involved in naming, in coming into view: "I won’t give you away" - because if I give you away (reveal who you are, where you are) then I give you away (give you over to the hands of someone else). That one is "given away" in a marriage ceremony seems of potential relevance as well. "liquid maps" jumps out at me: what to do when maps are liquid, a question the poem seems to complexly address. So, on to the next one, Louis Cabri’s: from *For Alan Davies* "Water proof" How about that, voice. How about that voice. How about that choice. How about that bit. How about that, hoarse. How about that drink forgets it. How about that quartz awhile replaced it. How about that quart. How about that habit dressed to spill now. For instance how about that backyard time. And that body too eh. How about that comma rhyme. I like the tensions set up right from the beginning. The first line evokes a kind of "New American" immediacy (Louis is Canadian): "How about that, voice" - it seems to say, well, what do you know, here we are. But dropping the comma - "How about that voice" - makes the sentence look backward at line 1 and the sense of immediacy is compromised: we’re talking - possibly - about a previous voice now. Likewise with the 3rd line where we may be talking about the previous 2. Tonally, I feel like the poem can be read almost as elegy for this reason: each sentence looks back on its predecessor and we drift closer to the past tense: this is mediated by attempts to "replace" and "forget" (attempts which are interestingly couple with more Steinian invention), but is reinforced somewhat by "habit" and put pretty clearly in "How about that backyard time" which wants to be extended into historical narrative - "How about that backyard time when…" The last two lines seem to me to warn against the seductiveness of invention for its own sake: the "comma rhyme"-as-"hot body" a reminder of the masculinist fantasy of "breaking the mold," etc (who called Olson’s model "the phallic lung"?) Anyway, Lee Ann and Louis probably feel like I’ve butchered them in public by now but, my own misreadings aside, I think the exercise has its point: that these poems, by young poets whose names, if recognized, would be pitched most assuredly into the "disjunctive" school, are actually *highly* readable and pertinent to discussions of societies and langauges on many, many levels. There’s much good writing going on in all shapes and sizes. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:14:45 -0400 Reply-To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donald Wellman Subject: Re: saving disjunctive MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was hedging some hunches in the last part of my post concerning the "disjunctive" surface of the poem. Tom Orange's post has encouraged me to elaborate more on what is on my mind. Both of his examples (lines from Diane Ward and Barrett Watten) create or slide through disjunctions in the language. Disjunctions of desire (which are the other sort of disjunctions that interest me) do not exist in or mirror language in either case. I suppose I reject the coherence a transparency might suppose. Disjunctions of my desiring might prompt me to narrativize either effect. I could say that Watten provokes a more cinematic response as though each sentence were a frame through which I view a world. If I were to go on about what he has done, I might try to distinguish a super-realism from the easy automatism of surrealism. Surely I will not be longing for one phrase that has the power to cut through my silences. Instead, I will follow the motion, impeded and impelled in my flight by the instinct to read as clues lines that I'd best (it is my hunch) unfold--and they do sustain attention as they unfold. so i might say that Watten's lines are an example of extensive, serial, and continuously unfolding language, working effectively against my desire for closure, diverging again and again, and thereby compelling my attention. I do still admit to that desire to narrativize. I think Silliman referred to it as the principle of "evisagement" way back in The New Sentence. Diane's lines are more intriguing to me. I requote two: "Dark windows in which a list followed by facts us erupt chilling comparing." Now it is possible that the above could fit into a series such as Watten's, but my impulse is not to follow divergent serial possibilities. Issues of subjectivity seem paramount here. I can successfully narrativize an "erupt"-ed subjectivity. I seem to know more fully what this is about. It is some musical dissonance that echoes with my own sense of perhaps seeing myself erupted--compared, chilled, raw. There is no sliding beyond this for me, but a circling back. I could use a lot of different adjectives to describe the different effects of each passage. I do not think that distinguishing between disjunctions at the level of phrase or sentence is especially helpful. I do think that each writer has knowingly played their language, managed the effect of it so as to catch, frame, stress a pulse and in each case my instinct to narrativize both sustains my attention and also takes something away from my ability to hear. I hazard that I am hearing a vision, subject to different turmoils and pacing inexorably in the case of Watten's lines. I feel that I am at a recurring and highly sensitive sticking point when I listen to Ward. don wellman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:45:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: yaaay! In-Reply-To: <35C76BB5.EF9A6AE4@ma.ultranet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Whenever my 21-month old hears applause on the television or radio, he says "yaaay" and claps. I learn living from him, so I'd like to give a big "yaaay" to Don Wellman and Mike Magee for concretizing the discussion. I found both their posts useful, specific, and helpful, although as I understand it Henry is at least in part calling for a pluralism which I too support, so I'm all with Henry on this point. Yaaay also to Mike Magee for disagreeing with Henry on the smaller point, i.e., Yeats/Pound dichotomy; Stone Cottage is a great book and a similar dichotomy, Pound/ Stevens, as outlined by Marjorie Perloff was roundly critiqued by John Timberman Newcomb in Wallace Stevens and Literary Canons and then later by me, in a quick'n dirty fashion, in my essay on Perloff in Diacritics oh more than a year ago. Posts like these make the signal/noise ratio on this list worth bearing. Soon I might add signal, but for the moment I remain Part of the noise, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 17:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Ole! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This unfolding discussion on the "disjunctive" question is wonderful--one of the best, for me, since I've been on the list. Who are these smart people and where do they come from? Ole! (Waiter, please, a little more on the volume and another pack of Turkish ovals...) And Henry, remember that in the bullfight, if the bull gets the matador, he lives like a king in the fields; if the bull dies and has been brave, he is showered with flowers. The crowd loves its gallant bull. (Of course, no one is really going to die, which is fantastic!) Ole! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 18:44:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: instead of a pineapple MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill Luoma wrote: > ><> > > > >ok Mark D., what do you want? One good thing to want (and I wanted it more than a pineapple) is Bill's new book _Works & Days_ (Hard Press/The Figures), a sort of cracked comic memoir. "It's a big world out there, and thanks to perception management it appears to be getting smaller." Rachel ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 13:13:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: Re: help w/ djuna barnes Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Barnes papers are the University of Maryland, College Park in the Special Collections. There you will find anything she'd been working on. There are numerous poems in that collection, but each has been written over, crossed out, deleted, revised, crossed out, written over again, etc. that it would take a true textual scholar to come up with anything. And frankly, the poetry is just not as interesting as her other works. But then, that's my opinion about it. Douglas Messerli R M Daley wrote: > > can anyone help me out with a bit of digging about?- trying to > find out what happened to the > work-in-progress found in djuna barnes > apt when she died? (according to shari benstock, a poem she had been > working on for thirty years) - or point me in the direction of barnes' > papers, etc - > > or even just carolyn burke's address > > thanks > > rd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:57:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: H=E=N=R=Y Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I agree with you here, Mark, with a slightly different twist: is not part of the agenda of the dreaded an attempt to add to/modify/detract from the communal language - I know that it is this for me among other intentions. I also know too well that the songs and rhythmic communications by my teenage kids is an attempt in some ways to subvert my establllished place. - perhaps this is why disjunction is often seen as threatening in poetry? tom bell At 10:39 PM 8/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >I disagree. I don't believe language, even in the texts of the dreaded >, CAN be private property. I believe language is >inherently communal. This presumption changes how one _reads_ such >texts-- de-esotericizes them, if you will. Perhaps this, I think >strange, belief in language as private property in modernist & >postmodernist writing (since I assume you would probably extend your >critique not just toward Langpo, but perhaps also to Stein, Zukofsky's >_"A"_, Un Coup de Des, _Finnegan's Wake_, etc.) explains why you are >seemingly incapable of reading these texts with pleasure, or without >annoyance. Whereas someone like me, who doesn't share your belief in >language as private property in or outside of these writings, IS capable >of reading these texts as non-esoteric-- as a liberation & a pleasure. > >--Mark DuCharme > > > >Henry Gould wrote: > >>On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:03:15 -0700 Peter Balestrieri said: >>> >>> Henry, I'm trying to follow your argument and I'm wondering if >you'd >>> be willing to clarify what you mean by "...the intent was to >critique >>> another style of appropriation..." Who was doing the critiquing >and >>> what style of appropriation are you referring to? I think you've >>> raised something important here and I want to be able to better >>> understand what you're saying. Did you mean that Langpo was >critiquing >>> capitalist "appropriation" but only replaced it with another form >of >>> appropriation, aesthetic rather than economic? Or am I way off? >> >>I think Langpo - hit me, real langpoets out there - was trying to >>write against the appropriation of poetry by 70s MFA "self" factories, >>and against the appropriation of literary space by "privacy capital" of >>all kinds. Their strategy was a drastic one: basically to dynamite the >>rhetorical/communicative function, the authorial function, and so on by >>letting "language" - individual words, non-sequiturs, broken syntax & >>rhetoric - speak (often comically) for itself. I'm suggesting this was >>a kind of unwitting creation of a new kind of private property - sort >of >>prospecting the dictionary. - Henry G. >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:57:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Charles, You find me talking before acting as I have not yet come up with a way of translating these things to the printed page (and may never be able to.). The examples here are not the only ones out there as you can see, for example, with a visit to the writings scratchpad: http://www.burningpress.org/wreyeting/ which is well worth a visit by anyone interested in this area. I don't lay claim to be the only one working in this direction in print or hypertext/visual poetry. In many of the work I have been doing lately (generally a group of linked smaller pieces or pages) the reader can construct their own poem in a variety of ways by the way they traverse the links, layers, and directions. In several areas words and citations are present at times and then covered at other times in the animation. I am currently experimenting with timing issues: words and images appear at different intervals - at times so fast the reader can get frustrated by or enjoy the amount of time the material is there. I have been looking at the Russian Futurists and other visual/collage/ poem-painting stuff and welcome suggestions as to other sources. Things I currently have in progress are at http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm http://members.home.net/trbell/motheran.htm comments welcome. My experience constructing these works is here or there in the work. What is your experience reading them this way or that way? I am involved in a project http://www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~rswillco/PH/ where participants will be able to modify pages and poems done by others and I'm sure it's not theonly one of it's kind - I suspect that the day will come soon when someone can post a poem to let readers make actual changes. tom bell At 01:49 AM 8/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >At 02:07 PM 8/4/98 -0500, you wrote: > >When I read what you have posted, I want more explanation of what you mean >is involved in the reader 'constructing' the poem. I think such an act is >involved in a lot of work talked about on the list, from Susan Howe to Alan >Sondheim. So I'm wondering if you have a more specific idea of such >reader-construction in mind. > > >charles > > >charles >charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com >chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing >books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:57:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: Writing Poetry in the Age of Media Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" m, I think what yoou say here articulates very well what I may have been struggling with when I said anything about fear or avoidance of the disjunctive (if I did say anything along those lines). Stepping back or away from _conscious_ responsibility raises the discussion to higher ground. tom bell At 07:48 AM 8/4/98 -0400, you wrote: >Donald Wellman writes: >"It seems to me that if a poem is disjunctive at the level of syntax >(fragmented syntax) then it will deny the reader an experience of >closure (the rounding out of musical or mathematical form). > >This has always seemed to me the primary source of resistance to >disjunctive poetries. They prevent the reader from walking away with a >sense of having got the meaning. They prevent my appropriation of their >language, of the language. > >I think this is essentially true, though I'd want to differ slightly - one >*can* appropriate the disjunctive poem: it's just that, one can't do it >unselfconsciously - that is, one can't do it without being painfully aware >that one has done it: I think must of the discomfort over, say, language >poetry, stems from this: that readers bred on staid narrative or formalist >poem do not want any conscious responsibility for the generation of >meaning, they would rather entertain the fiction that they have "got it" - >that there can be a transcendental (though also very ordinary) connection >between a) authorial intention and readerly recption; or b) between >langauge itself (as deity) and the worshipping reader. The only >difference, then, between, say, a Perelman poem and a Mary Jo Salter poem >- so far as reading practice is concerned - is that there is a codified >set of reading-rules for the latter which aids the reader so-inclined in >his/her pursuit of that "got it" feeling. In contrast, since Perelman >"re-instates the vague" as Wm James put it, the reader has a heightened >awareness of her/his own complicity, and either says, "fuck this" and puts >the book down, or accepts a more dialogic/antiphonal poetic model. This >doesn't imply that things don't "mean," just that they mean differently >along different points in a continuum. -m. > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 00:23:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: creative writing at the University of Hawai`i Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear friends--for the next three years I will be chair of the creative writing program in the English department at UH; because this is not a job I've held before, I'm writing to solicit suggestions from any of you who have held similar positions, within or without the academy. Please feel free to tell me what worked for you and what didn't. How did you deal with the almost inevitable tensions between creative writers and critics? How did you increase interest in experimental writing? (The emphasis here, though we don't have an MFA, has been on MFA type work, and one of the primary fears has been of theory in any of its guises, and this is only one of the stories, since the tensions between local writers and the academy have also been strong.) What did you do to increase interest and activity among graduate students? Undergrads? What sources of money did you find? Any comments are more than welcome. Let me also say that, even though there is not a lot of money presently to bring writers out here in the current long state-wide recession, that there are local reading series that pay modestly, and there are audiences for poetry (Juliana Spahr and Bill Luoma and Gabe Welford and Steve Carll are now here all the time). The local writing scene is fractious, fascinating, and important to the culture and politics of the entire state and region. If you're on the list and you're going to visit Hawai`i, please let us know. Anyone planning to visit in mid-September should attend the festival of island writing, which will feature many local poets and fiction writers, as well as Kamau Brathwaite, Sia Figel, and others. Thanks in advance, Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:52:10 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hazel Smith Subject: hypermedia piece Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Members of this list might be interested to look at the hypermedia interactive piece "Wordstuffs: the city and the body" created by myself, Roger Dean and Greg White. It consists of text, sound and image and is on the Australian Film Commission website site at www.stuff-art.com.au -(there are also other pieces on this site which might interest you). You will need the Shockwave plug-in for Flash and Director and you will also also need Quicktime and Java. However, if you do not have these, you can download them free of charge from the internet. Hazel Smith School of English University of New South Wales Sydney 2052 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 22:07:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Ahistorical finger pointing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Prejsnar wrote: "Yup....As i hope everyone knows by now, the situation of academics has been stomped on so hard, and without sufficient resistence, that they are truly reaching a level of proletarianization....It ain't a figure of speech. (I hasten to add that the lack of sufficient resistence reflects the state of class struggle overall, and isn't the fault especially of folks in academe alone. You might blame developments in the steel and auto industries, in fact, for selling down the river the chance at a strong working class decades ago..Without a true labor movement in society as a whole any one sector is vulnerable)" Talk about ahistorical finger pointing! Yes, working conditions in the academy are worsening, but it's a load of crap to try to blame this on "developments" in the steel and auto industries. And from your final sentence it seems that you're not blaming "developments," but rather those working class people who could have built a "true labor movement." First of all, wake up! Ever heard of the UPS strike? The organizing was masterful. And what about the 40,000 rank and file construction workers who recently took over midtown Manhattan? These are great examples of the resurgence of the American Labor Movement. To borrow from an old adage, convenience has bred apathy on the part of college professors for some time. Part-timers and adjuncts are currently leading the charge in organizing on college campuses. Get involved. All workers are under attack and it's not possible to improve conditions or hold onto past gains without fighting back. And, you know, this whole "academy" discussion was started by my observations about experimental poetry no longer being "outside" the academy. Interesting that this has spurred such defensiveness on the part of academics. I don't think anyone's point was that academics, or the academy itself, is "bad;" that's simply too reductive, and not the point in any case. Kathy Lou Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:15:24 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: creative writing at the University of Hawai`i MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit susan: congrats--one thinks--and best of luck. I would fly to an island of writing if I could--and your generous announcement sounds like a promising start to a strong wind! Bests! Todd Baron (ReMap) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 01:36:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: what happened from 1809 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - " - express the mythical identity of one 'Sabeth the Forsaken,' a frustra- ted woman neglected by a lover "_whose body juices were all spent upon the paper [on which he was writing *Voyage*] the fountain of his sex turned inward; the exploration of her flesh was nothing when compared to the penetration of the vast labyrinth within. The quest for monsters demanded monstrous denial. Thus, she would become 'Sabeth, the Forsaken,' to his friends. Magnificent and futile, she roamed the streets of Montmartre; drank nightly in the bars; let them caress her in his stead. In his presence, even,_" Ostrovsky, Voyeur Voyant, quoted in Elizabeth and Louis, Elizabeth Craig talks about Louis-Ferdinand Celine, Alphonse Juilland and Nikuko thinking about all of this and how to deal with the magick gothic, high and other- wise, so futile! while she wrytes and writhes away her life spent outward, inversion-M.-Celine, just a moment now! while she raises a drink for a final toast before closing time: a hunger, mysterious impulse, seizes her as she enters these lines into the machinery, skin stretched to the limit, threaded through the maze of world and desire, just a minute, little Jennifer! reeling back from the force and effort of all of it, turned with flame & fury Towards that Text that placed Itself in the Sky outside the St- Antoine, now so stars and now, and now * * something flashes/is flashing ************** in the moment, little Jennifer thinks **** **** ***** o pretty pretty picture, all these stars **** * ************** in the sky spelling such a big-little word! **** ********** ** * and someday Jennifer will be upon the sea * * and she will look above the crest of wave * * *** *** ******** * and remember stars and words *** ******* ******* ** and she will be drinking in a bar with a man ***** and she will turn to the man ****** she will turn to the man, I remember you ** *** * and now I remember you * and now I remember you and she will turn, she will turn to the stars she will turn towards the dark night and the moon she will turn tricks and planets and she will sing now I remember you and now I remember you I remember now ____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:00:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Shouting Rock and Roll in Prvt. Ryan In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I still think they were saying 'lock & load.' Sounded to me as if the guy was instructing, "Drop your toad!" George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:04:16 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: H=E=N=R=Y Content-Type: text/plain Agreed without hesitation that canonization applies "property rights," as it were, even to Langpo works. Yet I thought you had been talking about the "elitism" or "esotericism," as you would have it, of such texts-- NOT about the social effects of critics' uses of them. Have I misunderstood you? And in any case, how would such a process be substantively different whether the poet is Yeats or Bob Perelman? I don't see how this is relevant in the context of the issues you were raising. As for language as communal-- well, it is a shared system of signs, isn't it? We could go back & forth on this point from now til the end of time & probably bore the rest on the list to tears. I'm sorry if I mischaracterized your response to disjunctive poetry (you'll note I tried to be careful to qualify my assertion), but you have to admit you have tried to come off as attacking disjunction-- just as you sign this recent post "your favorite reactionary curmudgeon." I'm sure your stance is more complicated than you can easily represent in a post or two, but you also seem to go out of your way to bait the "pro-disjunctionists" (as if there were such a thing). You can't have it both ways. "What if postmodern perspectives & techniques do not accomplish the writer's point of view?" Then bully for you, as Frank O'Hara said. I don't see anybody, least of all myself, logging on to the list to tell Henry Gould how he should write a poem. Yet I have to say I feel a little brow-beaten at times if some of the enthusiasms you champion sound boring to me PERSONALLY, in terms of my own practice (not what you or anyone else should like). "But what if coming from the WRITER'S position, these modes of composition are simply NO LONGER INTERESTING? Do not reflect the goals of the writer?" But there isn't just one "the writer"-- maybe this gets back to that "simplistic" communality of language after all. So let's all agree to write just what interests us, okay?-- & know full well that others, doing the same, will be different. Now what would be so elitist about that? --Mark (well you asked for a response) DuCharme Henry Gould wrote: >On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 22:39:52 PDT Mark DuCharme said: >>I disagree. I don't believe language, even in the texts of the dreaded >>, CAN be private property. I believe language is >>inherently communal. This presumption changes how one _reads_ such >>texts-- de-esotericizes them, if you will. Perhaps this, I think >>strange, belief in language as private property in modernist & >>postmodernist writing (since I assume you would probably extend your >>critique not just toward Langpo, but perhaps also to Stein, Zukofsky's >>_"A"_, Un Coup de Des, _Finnegan's Wake_, etc.) explains why you are >>seemingly incapable of reading these texts with pleasure, or without >>annoyance. Whereas someone like me, who doesn't share your belief in >>language as private property in or outside of these writings, IS capable >>of reading these texts as non-esoteric-- as a liberation & a pleasure. > >Well, the property bit could take us into distant realms of abstraction... >but I guess it seems simplistic to say that language is "inherently >communal". A big problem for the writer is to find the language that >CAN be shared in a way that gets across what she or he wants to get >across. And my point was that the canonizing-publishing process gradually >applies the same "property effects" to experimental poetry as to the rest. > >But this isn't the interesting issue. You're wrong that I'm incapable of >enjoying innovative or disjunctive work - I think Don Wellman's description >of his response to some Language poetry was true & close to my own experience >of it. But several posts have talked about "how to get into disjunctive >writing" from a sort of reader-response perspective. You have to learn >to enjoy non-closure, etc. But what if coming from the WRITER'S position, >these modes of composition are simply NO LONGER INTERESTING? Do not >reflect the goals of the writer? I think "closure" is a very weak >descriptor for what the writer is after. What if postmodern perspectives >& techniques do not accomplish the writer's point of view? That is >what interests me about approaches that Yeats (as ONE example) can >represent, in part: and I'm also talking about the micro levels of technique >from a WRITER'S perspective. The idea that a synthetic approach to >syntax, rhythm & meaning is just a handy way to package McMeaning >ignores 95% of the fascination of the text or the performance, as far >as I'm concerned. >- your favorite reactionary curmudgeon, Henry G. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 02:13:34 -0400 Reply-To: Tom Orange Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Orange Subject: saving disjunctive In-Reply-To: <199808050402.AAA21514@juliet.its.uwo.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII grateful to don wellman and michael magee for (re)posting lines and offering some commentaries. whether this amounts to defending the ramparts of the innovative (henry to michael) vis a vis different (presumably outmoded) paradigms of writing -- nothing that can be fruitfully revisited is outmoded. don's take on ward's lines (anybody out there got the whole poem?) Dark windows in which a list followed by facts us erupt chilling comparing which find subjectivity pertinent here (certainly also in the lee ann brown poem as michael points out), to which i would add epistemolgical concerns as well, how affect confronts kinds of experience. whereas a list need not be factual but rather a paratactic stacking up of items dependent on context for any kind of referential grounding, facts are purportedly verifiable or objective and equally context-dependent, though their status as facts masks that very dependency. these mixed levels of experience erupt us (subjects acted upon, social constructivism) and at the same time we erupt the empirical concatenation (active subjects, semiotic rupture into the symbolic). both are chilling: brute experience and the subject's encounter with it. as is the comparing, of the list and facts (not to mention the dark windows), of experience and rupture. i think karen mac cormack's lines are working on a similar level, which was why i initially put them together, tho without elaborating, which i will try here (i give the whole stanza): The point isn't just to changing points needs it overblown more than complex guarantee crescendo exceeds advance created appearance covert treatment we're almost beginning in the midst of a discussion. i'm tempted to hear the 11th thesis on feurbach here, "philosophers have only interpreted the world, the point however is to change it," tho i wouldnt insist on it cuz we're quickly swept in other directions. but i can't stop rethinking that first line because of all the different senses of "point": geometry, space, time, jist, indicator. one (sense of?) point cannot be made to link to or index another because they are always changing. but not just changing. necessarily. is there an index to/of necessity? perhaps the whole project of aligning, connecting points of spatial, experiential, argumentative reference -- call it cognitive mapping -- must, needs be overblown. that is overblown because complex is too euphemistic a way of putting it, to clean and unproblematic. overblown renders the necessity of cognitive mapping as puffed up hollow distorted and untenable as it is. certainly exceeds my attempt here to reign it in. but perhaps parallels a kind of experiential rupture found in ward's lines... t. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:13:55 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: H=E=N=R=Y Content-Type: text/plain Sure, it's fooling around w/ the transmitter, but I don't think that can undermine language as transmission. --Mark DuCharme tom bell wrote: >I agree with you here, Mark, with a slightly different twist: is not >part of the agenda of the dreaded an attempt to add to/modify/detract >from the communal language - I know that it is this for me among other >intentions. I also know too well that the songs and rhythmic >communications by my teenage kids is an attempt in some ways to >subvert my establllished place. - perhaps this is why disjunction >is often seen as threatening in poetry? > >tom bell > >At 10:39 PM 8/3/98 PDT, you wrote: >>I disagree. I don't believe language, even in the texts of the dreaded >>, CAN be private property. I believe language is >>inherently communal. This presumption changes how one _reads_ such >>texts-- de-esotericizes them, if you will. Perhaps this, I think >>strange, belief in language as private property in modernist & >>postmodernist writing (since I assume you would probably extend your >>critique not just toward Langpo, but perhaps also to Stein, Zukofsky's >>_"A"_, Un Coup de Des, _Finnegan's Wake_, etc.) explains why you are >>seemingly incapable of reading these texts with pleasure, or without >>annoyance. Whereas someone like me, who doesn't share your belief in >>language as private property in or outside of these writings, IS capable >>of reading these texts as non-esoteric-- as a liberation & a pleasure. >> >>--Mark DuCharme >> >> >> >>Henry Gould wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:03:15 -0700 Peter Balestrieri said: >>>> >>>> Henry, I'm trying to follow your argument and I'm wondering if >>you'd >>>> be willing to clarify what you mean by "...the intent was to >>critique >>>> another style of appropriation..." Who was doing the critiquing >>and >>>> what style of appropriation are you referring to? I think you've >>>> raised something important here and I want to be able to better >>>> understand what you're saying. Did you mean that Langpo was >>critiquing >>>> capitalist "appropriation" but only replaced it with another form >>of >>>> appropriation, aesthetic rather than economic? Or am I way off? >>> >>>I think Langpo - hit me, real langpoets out there - was trying to >>>write against the appropriation of poetry by 70s MFA "self" factories, >>>and against the appropriation of literary space by "privacy capital" of >>>all kinds. Their strategy was a drastic one: basically to dynamite the >>>rhetorical/communicative function, the authorial function, and so on by >>>letting "language" - individual words, non-sequiturs, broken syntax & >>>rhetoric - speak (often comically) for itself. I'm suggesting this was >>>a kind of unwitting creation of a new kind of private property - sort >>of >>>prospecting the dictionary. - Henry G. >>> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 06:25:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: My David O'Bromige Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I first met Bob Hass in Buffalo in 1970 when he was studying with John Logan and I've liked the man (and his work) ever since. If my paternal grandfather had not been adopted and given the name Emerald Silliman (the Silliman family, starting with the first brothers, Daniel and Thomas, who came to Connecticut out of Berne, Switzerland, in the 1600s, started a tradition of adoption that continues to this day, making the name one that contains an enormous genetic diversity, but one that also means that many a cousin has no shared DNA with one another), I would be Ron McMahon today. Now, being the oldest living human (I turn 52 today, one year for each card in the deck) to have been named for the 40th president of the United States is a more complicated and dubious distinction. Even Reagan Jr. is younger than that. But, as I wrote to Bob Corbett yesterday, Pound is unthinkable without Yeats. So is David Bromige, for that matter (Cf. A Final Mission in _The Ends of the Earth_, Black Sparrow '68). And I always thought that the phrase O'Canada was a salute to that nation's Irish heritage, Ron "Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:56:51 -0700 From: david bromige Subject: ron o'silliman sure and havent I been after telling Ron this for decades now, tis time to come out of that Celtic Twilight into the sun of common day. Same for Bob O'Hass also, him and Ron being alike as two peas in the pod. The mystifications of "Meditation at Lagunitas" smells of the druid censer no less than those of "Ketjak" and "Tjanting." Appears that not until the Liffey flows with Guinness shall we hear the plain speech of common sense from these two boyos, (brothers, tis rumored, though the connection has been hushed up). On a seperate but related issue, I would love for Randolph Healey to demonstrate his argued point, just that any poem by RH boils my potatoes. David O'Boy Bromige" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:24:36 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: H=E=N=R=Y In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:04:16 PDT from On Tue, 4 Aug 1998 23:04:16 PDT Mark DuCharme said: >Agreed without hesitation that canonization applies "property rights," >as it were, even to Langpo works. Yet I thought you had been talking >about the "elitism" or "esotericism," as you would have it, of such >texts-- NOT about the social effects of critics' uses of them. Have I >misunderstood you? And in any case, how would such a process be >substantively different whether the poet is Yeats or Bob Perelman? I >don't see how this is relevant in the context of the issues you were >raising. I think what I was saying is that though postmodernists may consider themselves to be "freeing language itself" from stereotypes of the narcissistic undivided monistic self, the social effect or outcome of this approach is to accumulate disparate chunks of dictionary language - prospectin the vocabulary - stakin your claim, puttin up your shingle, callin in them hifalutin postmod scholar-lawyers to cover yer tenure, flashin yer anthology... in other words the social effect of the project is undifferentiable from other professional academic styles. But I agree with you this is not exactly relevant & is sort of unfair & typical email bombast. oh well. > > >I'm sorry if I mischaracterized your response to disjunctive poetry >(you'll note I tried to be careful to qualify my assertion), but you >have to admit you have tried to come off as attacking disjunction-- just >as you sign this recent post "your favorite reactionary curmudgeon." >I'm sure your stance is more complicated than you can easily represent >in a post or two, but you also seem to go out of your way to bait the >"pro-disjunctionists" (as if there were such a thing). You can't have >it both ways. I've been trying to satirize a reigning style or approach. I apologize for going over the top & browbeating & boring people. As you can see I'm at the sated stage now - this happens to bulls after a few days of noisy rampaging. The actual poets - the people who delight in words & poetry & make something themselves, unique & independent & substantial - continue to do their work, many of them working below the elitist level of academic libraries & internet access & office jobs, others just avoiding most of that because they are creative & clever. It would be truly reactionary to deny the impact of all the work very roughly flowing from say a "Pound Stein Zukofsky Howe" matrix (purely imaginary construct). The creme de la creme currently of that stream is possibly in the mag GERM, the new issue of which exhibits a lot of the faults & strengths of the reigning approach. Maybe when I've read it more thoroughly I can be more specific. >don't see anybody, least of all myself, logging on to the list to tell >Henry Gould how he should write a poem. Yet I have to say I feel a >little brow-beaten at times if some of the enthusiasms you champion >sound boring to me PERSONALLY, in terms of my own practice (not what you >or anyone else should like). "But what if coming from the WRITER'S >position, these modes of composition are simply NO LONGER INTERESTING? >Do not reflect the goals of the writer?" But there isn't just one "the >writer"-- maybe this gets back to that "simplistic" communality of >language after all. So let's all agree to write just what interests us, >okay?-- & know full well that others, doing the same, will be different. > >Now what would be so elitist about that? I guess what I was getting at was that I was SKETCHING some bases for an alternative style, so that it won't do simply to recount "how to read" "disjunctive" work - I'm suggesting writing & reading something else entirely - you certainly have every right to find it not worth pursuing - but I don't quite agree with David Kellogg & others who simply cite the "Stone Cottage" book or how close Yeats & Pound were. Of course they were, & influenced each other to a great degree - but they also distinguished their approaches quite clearly, I think. Sorry I can't quote any evidence at the moment but I believe both Yeats & Pound specifically pointed out where they parted ways. To summarize once more: my alternative position is this: it is possible to pursue an innovative poetry which aims for a direct synthesis of speech rhythms, metrics, imagery, and meaning; which maintains the syntax of "ordinary speech" while changing it, defamiliarizing it at the same time; which is an "art which hides art" by concealing layers of feeling & meaning beneath such a "non-disjunctive" surface; which even speaks "in propria persona" - or its mask - the autobriographical self - rather than a neutral non-voice or a mask of marginality. And this general approach is closer to the path Yeats took rather than Pound, whose drive to "break the pentameter" and so forth has continued on its centrifugal path for almost a century. I am not saying that we must obsess about Yeats or Pound as paradigms, or that disjunctive work is no good, or that such innovative poetry must sound like Robert Frost or something suitably antique. I am saying that I have a philosophical quibble with much of the ideological foundations of postmodern poetry, which I've gestured toward in some essays in Witz & Mudlark, and that's been part of my motive for running to the Russkies & slamming the creme de la creme. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:00:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: query: Robinson, Snyder Can anyone provide email addresses for Elizabeth Robinson in Berkeley or Rick Snyder in Brooklyn? Please backchannel only. Thanks very much. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:12:34 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: writing in the age of media MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe Safdie quotes Marjorie Perloff as saying: Our first response to such 'sentences,' especially when there is a whole paragraph or page of them, is that we are the victims of some kind of scam. ********************** I think an inflamed version of this response drives a great deal of the dismissal of "disjunctive" poetries. (Though why the disjunctive since they pre-eminently put things together). A possible way out of this is to entertain the idea, however much as a polite fiction, that one's taste may not be absolutely trustworthy. And that one may not perhaps have arrived at the terminal point of the process of learning to read. This can be a bitter pill for those of us who like to judge a poem quickly, since it requires a different kind of attention to the text than we are used to giving. Moreover, in the absence of familiar rewards, some kind of faith in poetry may be necessary. Randolph Healy from suantrai@iol.ie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:20:50 EDT Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Henry Gould Comments: Originally-From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: writing in the age of media MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Randolph Healy wrote: Joe Safdie quotes Marjorie Perloff as saying: Our first response to such 'sentences,' especially when there is a whole paragraph or page of them, is that we are the victims of some kind of scam. ********************** I think an inflamed version of this response drives a great deal of the dismissal of "disjunctive" poetries. (Though why the disjunctive since they pre-eminently put things together). A possible way out of this is to entertain the idea, however much as a polite fiction, that one's taste may not be absolutely trustworthy. And that one may not perhaps have arrived at the terminal point of the process of learning to read. This can be a bitter pill for those of us who like to judge a poem quickly, since it requires a different kind of attention to the text than we are used to giving. Moreover, in the absence of familiar rewards, some kind of faith in poetry may be necessary. [end quote] It's worth being reminded that the poem-text is a wilderness requiring patient application & care. Let us all have faith in poetry and give it an opportunity to be heard. Especially those of us inured to Tennyson & AE Housman, who like a jolly rhyme & a quick message before lunch; who want a poet like Vachel Lindsay to arise & speak to the people. These dizjunk chaps are awfully mind-boggling - what's it all about? - Eric Blarnes ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 10:16:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Confused Kathy fingerpointing In-Reply-To: <35C7E89E.5AC@worldnet.att.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Wake up yerself... I'm a working class person who's been deeply involved in the labor movement for over 20 years. Yeah, in fact the movement was sold out by what i refer to as the sweetheart leadership, who allowed red-baiting and the-post-war-boom-will-raise-all-boats to convince 'em to sell out the militancy we needed. Get a grip and look at things clearly. We need to be critical and not mealy-mouthed. Mark (at various times of UAW, AFSCME, HUCTW, OCC and other organizing drives and organizing committees... currently activist/organizer with the Labor Party) On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > "Yup....As i hope everyone knows by now, the situation of academics has > been stomped on so hard, and without sufficient resistence, that they > are > truly reaching a level of proletarianization....It ain't a figure of > speech. (I hasten to add that the lack of sufficient resistence > reflects > the state of class struggle overall, and isn't the fault especially of > folks in academe alone. You might blame developments in the steel and > auto industries, in fact, for selling down the river the chance at a > strong working class decades ago..Without a true labor movement in > society > as a whole any one sector is vulnerable)" > > Talk about ahistorical finger pointing! Yes, working conditions in the > academy are worsening, but it's a load of crap to try to blame this on > "developments" in the steel and auto industries. And from your final > sentence it seems that you're not blaming "developments," but rather > those working class people who could have built a "true labor movement." > First of all, wake up! Ever heard of the UPS strike? The organizing was > masterful. And what about the 40,000 rank and file construction workers > who recently took over midtown Manhattan? These are great examples of > the resurgence of the American Labor Movement. > > To borrow from an old adage, convenience has bred apathy on the part of > college professors for some time. Part-timers and adjuncts are currently > leading the charge in organizing on college campuses. Get involved. All > workers are under attack and it's not possible to improve conditions or > hold onto past gains without fighting back. > > And, you know, this whole "academy" discussion was started by my > observations about experimental poetry no longer being "outside" the > academy. Interesting that this has spurred such defensiveness on the > part of academics. I don't think anyone's point was that academics, or > the academy itself, is "bad;" that's simply too reductive, and not the > point in any case. > > Kathy Lou Schultz > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 09:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Academic Exchange Value MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII While the the rhetorical mode of the "salvage operation" is tired, as David K. points out with great wit, does that mean that it is not worth doing? Perhaps in some other rhetorical mode? I for one appreciated Maria Damon's chapter on Bob Kaufman--despite the fact that it fell into a pattern of "rescue this neglected poet." That supposedly hipper but actually simply "not interested in poetry" cult studs were less interested in Duncan/Spicer/Kaufman says something about them, Maria. The revealing phrase for me in your post about reception of your work was "to the extent they were interested at all." What WOULD interest these "cult studs"?!!! I would much rather be a poetry stud. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:37:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: :Re:poetry in the age of medication Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Tue, 4 Aug 98 david bromige writes >Poets here to ruin poetry? Youre goddam right we are! Whats the >point in leaving it just the way we found it? I HATE POETRY . Poetry >that seduced me with its (and my) worst impulses when I was utterly >vulnerable to its insinuations!? Poetry the molester of children's minds? >The Trauma of Poetry, of having been poetized, can never be forgiven >never cured in therapy. >Just about any of the poetry that we call Maindrainins doest look to be >written from any such wounds, but it is. It's is written in denial of those >wounds, it is written to protect the molester, it is written by incest >victims unable to acknowledge the fatal tinkering to which they were >subject while too green or too conflicted to enjoy their outrage. >I exaggerate? Name me one poet you admire who left Poetry the same as it >had been before. Poetry that opens my lips and shuts my mouth. Poetry that >wants me to lie down and let the past roll all over me. And makes me want >just that. --------------------------- It's a relief of sorts to hear someone say so, OR its not our dirty little secret anymore. I've often wondered about the 'Trauma of being poeticized'; I don't know if its a question of 'failure of nerve' or 'piety' to (in effect) choose or not choose to discuss 'trauma' in regards to 'being poeticized'. I don't think it is. Poetry is , in a sense, a blessing and a curse.(Hey, if I'm wrong here, tell me. I can take it. I need to know.) I was quite interested in the discussion last month with re: Hannah Weiner and the talk Maria Damon will be giving in October(?). This seems to be another aspect to this question. I wanted to mention the book _Unclaimed Experience: Trauma, Narrative, and History_ by Cathy Caruth as an important disclosure, and isnt being poeticized to be exposed to whatever is 'unclaimed' in one's life, what Giorgio Agamben calls 'the possession of what cannot be enjoyed, and the enjoyment of what cannot be possessed.'? When 'the beams of my house' are not so sturdy anymore, and philosophy is unmasked as a form of homesickness, and well, I want to check the view again out the 'north window', am I so sure the window frame is intact, or that I can point in that direction any longer, or that it even matters anymore calling this, or it, or us 'noble' anymore? I don't know if this is necessarily what Bromige is talking about...It's hard to get the hang of it, and that's another dirty secret. I don't know if I will or will not get the hang of it. How much longer do I have. Please check your clocks. Or are the colors I'm flying 'too loud'? Chris "rereading,instead of memory, as if to mediate the immediate, needs prayer. Most of them don't get the hang of it." <<>> ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:31:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: h=e=n=r=y MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Henry, you predicate your search for an "alternative" innovative poetry, one that is not also based on disjunctive poetics, on a "general approach closer to the path Yeats took than Pound." But in your careful description of the stylistics qualities of your alternative (your latest posts disregard "content" or the "form/content" issue, which may or may not be helpful in this instance)--you seem to leave out the relationship to a transcendental term(s) that Yeats predicated his poetics on, as did Duncan or Allen Grossman after him. Perhaps your most recent polemic ends up too quickly at claims about "how" to write a poem without addressing "why" write a poem, and this emphasis doesn't seem closer to Yeats at all. I assume that the stakes are higher than merely asserting your freedom from (the fiction of) a hegemony of disjunction. The energy field for Yeats was not delimited to self/language/ experience, and even adding history/social organization to this string will not be sufficiently encompassing. If you do not leave out the philosophical, or rather the theological, ground of Yeats' figures, then your discourse will need to get into much more than stylistics...no? Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:01:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: h=e=n=r=y In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:31:16 -0500 from On Wed, 5 Aug 1998 11:31:16 -0500 said: >Henry, you predicate your search for an "alternative" innovative poetry, >one that is not also based on disjunctive poetics, on a "general approach >closer to the path Yeats took than Pound." But in your careful description >of the stylistics qualities of your alternative (your latest posts disregard >"content" or the "form/content" issue, which may or may not be helpful in >this instance)--you seem to leave out the relationship to a transcendental >term(s) that Yeats predicated his poetics on, as did Duncan or Allen Grossman >after him. Perhaps your most recent polemic ends up too quickly at claims >about "how" to write a poem without addressing "why" write a poem, and this >emphasis doesn't seem closer to Yeats at all. I assume that the stakes are >higher than merely asserting your freedom from (the fiction of) a hegemony >experience, and even adding history/social organization to this string will >not be sufficiently encompassing. If you do not leave out the philosophical, >or rather the theological, ground of Yeats' figures, then your discourse >will need to get into much more than stylistics...no? Yeats' practice was more traditional and conservative than Pound's in many ways. It was Pound's influence that pushed Yeats to strive for a "harder", more "modern" voice, but he retained his original approach to language & form for the most part, it seems to me. It's not the fact of tradition that appeals to me: it's the emphasis on full, direct statement; the sense of a poem as a complete development and movement. This too will seem gratingly traditionalist. As I said in previous post, I have a philosophical quibble with [what I think of] as postmodernism; but I don't want to rehash lengthy comments of years ago on the list which bored a lot of people the first time. In the Witz & Mudlark essays I have tried to get at them in an indirect way. I bring forward the concept of wholeness as an ontological reality at least as real as division & fragmentation; I emphasize the "idea" of the Person as something slighted or made subservient by ideology on both left & right; & I talk about the traditional idea of the human as the image of god and the culture of the icon in Eastern European Christianity as realities which favor art-making in general. These are some of the notions that underlie my argument with postmodernism & my attempt to question the sort of "automatic marginality" which seems to flow from sophisticated contemporary poetics. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:13:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: hypermedia piece Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marvelous stuff, Hazel. I've only started to explore here, but it does illustrate what I was saying about mutual "auther"-reader poem construction, along with some pitfalls inherent apparently in the process - e.g. need for sophisticated hardware/software. You have done a marvelous job of avoiding another common problem with this work - I didn't detect a fascination with the means of production and fancy tricks, something that is found too often. tom bell trbell@home.com At 02:52 PM 8/5/98 +1000, you wrote: > Members of this list might be interested to look at the hypermedia >interactive piece "Wordstuffs: the city and the body" created by myself, >Roger Dean and Greg White. It consists of text, sound and image and is on >the Australian Film Commission website site at www.stuff-art.com.au -(there >are also other pieces on this site which might interest you). You will need >the Shockwave plug-in for Flash and Director and you will also also need >Quicktime and Java. However, if you do not have these, you can download >them free of charge from the internet. > > Hazel Smith > School of English >University of New South Wales >Sydney 2052 > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 14:17:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: :Re:poetry in the age of medication Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The cure for poetic trauma is not to be found in a pill or a bottle but might be written out of [!this is writing OUT OF, NOT confessional], might be helped through thherapy or mentoring, or taken as an "as-if" fact of life. If I were to say this applies to me does this than become "confessional" and automatically bad? What a weird world we inhabit. "Good Will Hunting' does have something to say. tom bell At 11:37 AM 8/5/98 -0400, you wrote: >On Tue, 4 Aug 98 david bromige writes >>Poets here to ruin poetry? Youre goddam right we are! Whats the >>point in leaving it just the way we found it? I HATE POETRY . Poetry >>that seduced me with its (and my) worst impulses when I was utterly >>vulnerable to its insinuations!? Poetry the molester of children's minds? >>The Trauma of Poetry, of having been poetized, can never be forgiven >never cured in therapy. > >>Just about any of the poetry that we call Maindrainins doest look to be >>written from any such wounds, but it is. It's is written in denial of those >>wounds, it is written to protect the molester, it is written by incest >>victims unable to acknowledge the fatal tinkering to which they were >>subject while too green or too conflicted to enjoy their outrage. > >>I exaggerate? Name me one poet you admire who left Poetry the same as it >>had been before. Poetry that opens my lips and shuts my mouth. Poetry that >>wants me to lie down and let the past roll all over me. And makes me want >>just that. > >--------------------------- >It's a relief of sorts to hear someone say so, OR its not our dirty little secret anymore. I've often wondered about the 'Trauma of being poeticized'; I don't know if its a question of 'failure of nerve' or 'piety' to (in effect) choose or not choose to discuss 'trauma' in regards to 'being poeticized'. I don't think it is. Poetry is , in a sense, a blessing and a curse.(Hey, if I'm wrong here, tell me. I can take it. I need to know.) > > I was quite interested in the discussion last month with re: Hannah Weiner and the talk Maria Damon will be giving in October(?). This seems to be another aspect to this question. I wanted to mention the book _Unclaimed Experience: Trauma, Narrative, and History_ by Cathy Caruth as an important disclosure, and isnt being poeticized to be exposed to whatever is 'unclaimed' in one's life, what Giorgio Agamben calls 'the possession of what cannot be enjoyed, and the enjoyment of what cannot be possessed.'? > >When 'the beams of my house' are not so sturdy anymore, and philosophy is unmasked as a form of homesickness, and well, I want to check the view again out the 'north window', am I so sure the window frame is intact, or that I can point in that direction any longer, or that it even matters anymore calling this, or it, or us 'noble' anymore? > >I don't know if this is necessarily what Bromige is talking about...It's hard to get the hang of it, and that's another dirty secret. I don't know if I will or will not get the hang of it. How much longer do I have. Please check your clocks. Or are the colors I'm flying 'too loud'? > >Chris > > >"rereading,instead of memory, > as if to mediate the immediate, > > needs prayer. > >Most of them don't get the hang of it." <<>> > > > > > > >____________________________________________________________________ >Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 12:39:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Quartermain Subject: Charles Watts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Many people on this list will be personally saddened to hear that dearly loved Charles Watts died this morning, 5 August, at about 4.15 a.m., of cancer. After years and years of conversations, as Robin Blaser says, turning the world round and round, that lovely mind enfolding one's thought and self, we'll miss him. He was one of the reasons to be, here. Please send any messages or tributes to me (address below), or to Tom McGauley at McDoyle@axionet.com I'll post details of the memorial gathering when I know them. + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + Peter Quartermain 846 Keefer Street Vancouver B.C. Canada V6A 1Y7 Voice : 604 255 8274 Fax: 255 8204 + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 17:06:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Other Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Interesting list, Douglas. Just as an americano guage or is that gauge? i'd say i am familiar with over half the names on that list. that i have read works by about one third of those folk. and have met perhaps between one eighth to one quarter of them. randolph healy is very cute as i remember. and Harriet has a good nose. some of this (acquainting) is a result of knowing stephen rodefer who taught some at cambridge. and the rest is from going to romana huk's new hampshire thing a ways back and paying attention to this list. i think the perception that those in the new world are ignorant of their contemporaries in the old world no longer holds. people actually have each other's addresses. the inevitable can't be stopped. so yes, even in light of the current saturation bombing from anthology hell, i am looking forward to the other thing. it is the only one i will actually go out and buy. best, Bill Luoma ______________________________ < Subject: Re: Other Jack Kimball has asked me to post a list of some interesting names in current Brit poetry. I'll do my best to give you, say, 50, very much off the top of my head, with absolutely no order of importance implied by the list. You see, what I'm really asked to do here is create an anthology via the immediacy of e-mail. This can't be a list of that kind: it would take research and fuller memory recall. I've probably forgotten my oldest friend! At present, most US views of the British scene are somewhat narrowed by the preoccupations both of US poets and British poets who have so far compiled the names or arrange the conferences. Nothing especially wrong with that, but below is a fairly non-partisan list from someone who hasn't lived in Britain for nearly two decades and will miss quite a bit, I expect. May other Brits correct me. A "T" means I have at least some contact or channel, sometimes close but not always. If Jack or anyone else is interested in following up on a name and I can help, I'd be glad to (within reason). Andrew Duncan T (edits Angel Exhaust) Helen MacDonald T J.H. Prynne T (renewed interest in his work after the "Stars and Tigers" essay, has become more and more concentrated in lexis more and more difficult.) Denise Riley T (not producing much poetry just now, but still one of the finest of all) Aaron Williamson T (balletic performance artist, fully deaf, still interesting on- page) Nicholas Johnson T (runs Etruscan Reader series and conferences) Karlien ven den Beukel T W.N. Herbert T (Scots, sometimes writes in Dundee dialect) Bill Griffiths T (has long been one of the most individual of poets writing out of London, runs the Eric Mottram archive) Allen Fisher T (one of the older writers to have kept most constantly innovative) Catherine Walsh (said to be a good performer) Miles Champion T (spending a lot of time in the States) Grace Lake T Wendy Mulford T (Used to run Reality Street editions with: Ken Edwards (who continues these editions) Maggie O'Sullivan T Iain Sinclair T (Edited Conductors of Chaos, see below) Harriet Tarlo T Randolph Healy (with Joyce below part of the non-mainstream Irish) Trevor Joyce Tom Leonard T (Scots, strong, political work) Carlyle Reedy (good performer) Caroline Bergvall T (again, a good performer) Merle Collins (With next two. Being out of the country, I don't know much E.A. Markham about African-British, Caribbean-British, and Asian-British Jack Mapanje writing. It's difficult to get the publications and I'd dearly love to be better informed. Fred d'Aiguar has been an important editor/poet. Can someone help me here?) Ralph Hawkins T Alaric Sumner (works with sound and performance motifs) Tom Raworth T (currently the Brit poet best known by the non-Academic States writers) Lee Harwood T (has been writing strongly again) Andrew Crozier T (his work has recently reappeared: one of the keenest intellects in British poetry) Adrian Harding (Scots, living in Paris) T David Chaloner T Anthony Barnett Victoria Vaughan T Simon Pettet (New York resident) Fiona Templeton Helen Kidd Peter Riley (publishes Poetical Histories) Tim Atkins Martin Corless-Smith (in States) John Wilkinson T Drew Milne T Khaled Hakim (has sort of invented an English of his own from semi-phonetics. I don't know him -- he's quite young.) D.S. Marriott T Tony Baker (in France) T Ric Caddel T John Kinsella (works out of England right now, but properly regarded as Australian) T Tony Lopez T Rod Mengham T (runs the Equipage series) Alan Halsey T Barry MacSweeney T (recently returned to the scene) Tom Pickard T cris cheek T (works a lot with performance) Lawrence Upton (good contact for the small press scene and activity generally) Gilbert Adair>> ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:56:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: need email address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain or phone number for Laura Mullen. Pls. backchannel. Thanks. Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:11:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** Man strung up on meat hooks sets new world record John Kamakaze, Scotland's self-styled "Prince of Pain," set a stomach-churning world record Wednesday when he spent 15 minutes suspended in mid-air by meat hooks imbedded in his back. A smiling Kamakaze, with eight meat hooks stuck in his back, and one in each leg, said pain was all in the mind. "It didn't hurt a bit. It's just a case of mind over matter," Kamakaze said afterwards. "I'm perfectly happy. The only thing that hurts is a blister on my foot from walking about too much yesterday." Unsurprisingly, the stunt has never before been attempted. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555409538-f1f *** Man squirts paint on Rembrandt portrait in London A man squirted yellow paint over a Rembrandt self-portrait at London's National Gallery this week but the work has been cleaned up and is now back on show, a gallery spokeswoman said Wednesday. The attack on the picture of the artist at the age of 63 happened on Tuesday. "It hasn't sustained any permanent damage," the spokeswoman said. A 26-year-old unemployed man has been charged with criminal damage over the attack, for which the motive was unclear. "This happens about once every 10 years," the spokeswoman said. "We normally nip these things in the bud." (Reuters) *** French language watchdog growls at U.S. feminists One of the staunchest defenders of the French language has found a new ememy in his never-ending battle against linguistic pollution - American feminists. Maurice Druon, secretary of the hallowed Academie Francaise that guards the language as a national treasure, grumbled on Wednesday about a recent fashion for "feminizing" titles which he said was an American aberration infiltrating French via Quebec. "Do we know where this fashion of feminizing titles was born? Certainly not in Canada, but in the United States. Canada was only contaminated through geographical proximity." See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555404916-1ac ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:04:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: phillytalks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit PhillyTalks Response Issue & Gil Ott Issue Response Issue Folding the past forward for another year of talks, a response issue to the contexts/issues/authors presented in PhillyTalks 1-4 will be available in September. Respondants include Fred Wah, Ben Friedlander, Al Filreis, Clint Burnham, Andrew Klobucar, Kerry Sherin, Ammiel Alcalay, Tom Beckett, many others, as well as edited transcripts of the discussions post the four live events. Featured poets in 1-4: Laura Moriarty & David Bromige, Andrew Levy & Jackson Mac Low, Jeff Derksen & Ron Silliman, Jena Osman & Tina Darragh. RESPONSES ARE STILL BEING CONSIDERED. I need, and would be very happy, to hear from you no later than the third week of August. A Gil Ott Issue PhillyTalks invites you to contribute to an upcoming issue on the work of Gil Ott. Ott's poetry, essays, Singing Horse Press, dedication to community and arts education in Philadelphia have been of great importance in encouraging formally innovative, socially aware writing practice. We seek responses to Gil's poetry and critical work, and are interested as well in commentary of a more personal nature (anecdote, reminiscence, etc.). Deadline: November 1st, 1998. The issue will feature an interview with the poet, conducted by Kristen Gallagher, Heather Starr and Kerry Sherin. For a Gil Ot bibliography, difficult-to-find or out-of-print work, contact Kristen Gallagher at 215-387-0651 or kristing@pobox.upenn.edu. Future Issues Featured talks include Rodrigo Toscano & Alan Gilbert, Brian Kim Stefans & Fred Wah, Rod Smith & Bruce Andrews, Susan Stewart & Bob Perelman, Steven Farmer & Peter Gizzi, and others! There will be a John Wieners Celebration issue, with Rachel Blau DuPlessis and Alan Davies, among others, available soon. The March 1998 talk by Ammiel Alcalay and Tom Mandel, moderated by Joshua Schuster, will be available in early September, together with a chapbook by Alcalay, _A Masque in the form of a Cento_, published by hole books. Contribute to the next set of talks by subscribing - - the second response issue is due next summer. $12 for the next five issues; donations acccepted. Please make your cheque out to Louis Cabri. Subscribers Due to a fatal laptop mishap, some subscribers' addresses have been lost. PLEASE email me your address if by the first week of September you have not received a newsletter! Sorry! I will try my best to contact you myself, as memory serves. PhillyTalks is a project of Kelly Writers House at the University of Pennsylvania. wh@dept.english.upenn.edu; http://dept.english.upenn.edu/~wh ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:30:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: My David O'Bromige In-Reply-To: <19988576146334@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >And I always thought that the phrase O'Canada was a salute to that nation's >Irish heritage, > >Ron It is. Just ask Michael O'Ndaatje. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 16:29:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Charles Watts In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980805193949.006bb3a8@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to Peter Q. for his sad and lovely words on Charles Watts. We will miss him on this list, and we will hardly know how to get by without him in Vancouver. You will remember that Charles did yeoman work on the Blaser conference here a couple years ago. He was currently working on the bpNichol symposium for this Fall. If you are lucky enough to have his book _Bread and Wine_, have a read. Charles, along with Gene Bridwell, was custodian of the Contemporary Literature Collection at Simon Fraser University, a wonderful place. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 18:09:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: poetry in the age of medication (the testimony begins) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > Just about any of the poetry that we call Maindrainins doest look to be > written from any such wounds, but it is. It's is written in denial of those > wounds, it is written to protect the molester, it is written by incest > victims unable to acknowledge the fatal tinkering to which they were > subject while too green or too conflicted to enjoy their outrage. And one support group is gathered to speak the full bitterness of poetry abuse in the latest issue of the (uh oh) PSA Journal. Charles Bernstein, Robert Creeley, Marie Ponsot, Leslie Scalapino and others write about their "first loves" in poesy. Bernstein: "I remember, as if it were another life, those nights that Khlebnikov was my babysitter. After giving me a hot plate of Campbell's Vegetarian Baked Beans with cut-up franks, and then tucking me into bed, he would perform 'Incantation by Laughter' . . . Although I also admired his 'supersaga' _Zangezi_, which he wrote while bouncing me on his knee (or so it has often seemed), I was definitely partial to his shorter _zaum_ poems . . ." Creeley: "So what I remember finally is what I have to--because I can't ever forget. It's the eighth grade? Miss Stolte, blonde, slim, quite tall, quick almost ironic manner, desperate in a way I can now recognize, lonely, disdaining, speedy, begins to read. We have badgered her mercilessly until she yields. But she must enjoy her powers? She is reading a poem by Alfred Noyes, which I find wondrous, arousing, sensual beyond anything I can put words to . . . " All join hands and let the healing begin, Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:09:11 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: "Poor Confused Kathy" responds MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please, Mr. Presjnar, I have no interest in attacking you as a person. Rather, I take issue with your ideas--and still take issue with them. I think you need to differentiate between union bureaucrat "leaders," and rank and file unionism in your gloss of the labor movement. And what about the UPS strike? And the NYC construction workers? Should we just ignore that and continue to bemoan the state of Labor Movement? I prefer to recognize the tremendous energy and militancy happening on the part of the rank and file. And you're simply not going to convince me that past failures (and yes there have been failures) on the part of union leaders in the steel and auto industries (your examples) are responsible for building the boat academics find themselves in. I still think they need to get off their butts and fight for their rights like everyone else--and help to build equality for workers. And increasing numbers are doing just that. Oh so "mealymouthed". . . I remain truly yours, Kathy Lou Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > Wake up yerself... > > I'm a working class person who's been deeply involved in the labor > movement for over 20 years. > > Yeah, in fact the movement was sold out by what i refer to as the > sweetheart leadership, who allowed red-baiting and > the-post-war-boom-will-raise-all-boats to convince 'em to sell out the > militancy we needed. > > Get a grip and look at things clearly. We need to be critical and not > mealy-mouthed. > > Mark > (at various times of UAW, AFSCME, HUCTW, OCC and other organizing drives > and organizing committees... > currently activist/organizer with the Labor Party) > > On Tue, 4 Aug 1998, Kathy Lou Schultz wrote: > > > Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > > > "Yup....As i hope everyone knows by now, the situation of academics has > > been stomped on so hard, and without sufficient resistence, that they > > are > > truly reaching a level of proletarianization....It ain't a figure of > > speech. (I hasten to add that the lack of sufficient resistence > > reflects > > the state of class struggle overall, and isn't the fault especially of > > folks in academe alone. You might blame developments in the steel and > > auto industries, in fact, for selling down the river the chance at a > > strong working class decades ago..Without a true labor movement in > > society > > as a whole any one sector is vulnerable)" > > > > Talk about ahistorical finger pointing! Yes, working conditions in the > > academy are worsening, but it's a load of crap to try to blame this on > > "developments" in the steel and auto industries. And from your final > > sentence it seems that you're not blaming "developments," but rather > > those working class people who could have built a "true labor movement." > > First of all, wake up! Ever heard of the UPS strike? The organizing was > > masterful. And what about the 40,000 rank and file construction workers > > who recently took over midtown Manhattan? These are great examples of > > the resurgence of the American Labor Movement. > > > > To borrow from an old adage, convenience has bred apathy on the part of > > college professors for some time. Part-timers and adjuncts are currently > > leading the charge in organizing on college campuses. Get involved. All > > workers are under attack and it's not possible to improve conditions or > > hold onto past gains without fighting back. > > > > And, you know, this whole "academy" discussion was started by my > > observations about experimental poetry no longer being "outside" the > > academy. Interesting that this has spurred such defensiveness on the > > part of academics. I don't think anyone's point was that academics, or > > the academy itself, is "bad;" that's simply too reductive, and not the > > point in any case. > > > > Kathy Lou Schultz > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:23:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kathy Lou Schultz Subject: Spelling Bee for Mark P. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark Prejsnar, Sorry for misspelling yr name in recent post -- very tired after work. KL ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:42:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: poetry in the territories (response to Wheeler) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Susan Wheeler wrote (in part): > Does anyone on this list, in their heart of hearts, not WANT this if it > indeed means paradigms that are not arbitrarily territorial? . . . > > My own work may play as more "conservative" than much on this list (yes one > of my poems was a Hollander selectee) but I'll freely admit I have not the > courage of some of you in accepting the colors and wielding the weapons. To > me, this territory war seems to me like the tiniest subset of larger > cultural and economic dynamics, and I choose cowardice and selfishness in > pretending that I can ignore categories in order to write with a greater > sense of freedom, even if it be self-illusory -- instead of using up this > energy in sandbagging the brittle dams the waves are toppling anyway. Hear hear. The poet wants free rein (or reign) but the territorialists, who are not necessarily or usually the originators in any school, are out in force. Why? Because marking territory, pissing on the snow you own, is a form of marketing. So I'd disagree only about "cowardice and selfishness," unless we want to call Ted Berrigan, for example, cowardly and selfish for reading what he pleased. Poets are magpies--acquisitive and curious. But camp followers and plodders are always out on patrol, making the world safe for dullness. Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:51:57 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: Re: "Poor Confused Kathy" responds In-Reply-To: <35C91047.69AD@worldnet.att.net> from "Kathy Lou Schultz" at Aug 5, 98 07:09:11 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > And you're simply not going to convince me that past failures (and yes > there have been failures) on the part of union leaders in the steel and > auto industries (your examples) are responsible for building the boat > academics find themselves in. I still think they need to get off their > butts and fight for their rights like everyone else--and help to build > equality for workers. And increasing numbers are doing just that. Kathy, At least a few academics have started to get off of their butts, or are at least sitting propped up on one elbow. See _Workplace_, an electronic journal devoted to academic labor issues that's sponsored by the MLA Graduate Student Caucus: http://www.workplace-gsc.com/ See too the Palinurus site, devoted to "teaching the humanities in a restructured world," which I know I've mentioned here before: http://humanitas.ucsb.edu/liu/palinurus/ Having been to distance education conferences myself (and listened to the rhetoric and ogled the pie charts), I very much believe that there's no more vital an issue for academics of all ranks, not least because the assault on tenure, the increasing reliance on part-time and non-degreed labor, and so forth are all integral to some of the more influential distance ed. scenarios. Matt ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:25:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: (the testimony begins) Comments: To: Rachel Loden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain And the Independent Prosecutor then asked: Wasn't it Rachel Loden who wrote "My Wicked, Wicked Ways"? Wasn't it Robert Creeley who first denigrated the word "about" in relation to poetry? (It happened traveling in lovely company, as I remember). The hands that rocked the cradle, indeed! I'm trying to remember the first wound that poetry inflicted, but "A Child's Garden of Verses" by Robert Stevenson seemed pretty innocuous at the time . . . -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Loden To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: 8/5/98 6:09 PM Subject: Re: poetry in the age of medication (the testimony begins) david bromige wrote: > Just about any of the poetry that we call Maindrainins doest look to be > written from any such wounds, but it is. It's is written in denial of those > wounds, it is written to protect the molester, it is written by incest > victims unable to acknowledge the fatal tinkering to which they were > subject while too green or too conflicted to enjoy their outrage. And one support group is gathered to speak the full bitterness of poetry abuse in the latest issue of the (uh oh) PSA Journal. Charles Bernstein, Robert Creeley, Marie Ponsot, Leslie Scalapino and others write about their "first loves" in poesy. Bernstein: "I remember, as if it were another life, those nights that Khlebnikov was my babysitter. After giving me a hot plate of Campbell's Vegetarian Baked Beans with cut-up franks, and then tucking me into bed, he would perform 'Incantation by Laughter' . . . Although I also admired his 'supersaga' _Zangezi_, which he wrote while bouncing me on his knee (or so it has often seemed), I was definitely partial to his shorter _zaum_ poems . . ." Creeley: "So what I remember finally is what I have to--because I can't ever forget. It's the eighth grade? Miss Stolte, blonde, slim, quite tall, quick almost ironic manner, desperate in a way I can now recognize, lonely, disdaining, speedy, begins to read. We have badgered her mercilessly until she yields. But she must enjoy her powers? She is reading a poem by Alfred Noyes, which I find wondrous, arousing, sensual beyond anything I can put words to . . . " All join hands and let the healing begin, Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 21:48:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: wrtng in thage f mdia/2ndng Randolph Healy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Absolutely (a word I seldom use), Randolph, and so elegantly put. Why it has to be stated so often is a puzzle. The rush to judgment of literary taste is as stupid, every bit, as Why wait for the Law let's string 'em up now. I should think everybody has had the experience of later coming to love a writing which they at first distrusted if not detested. (As of coming to love a person one at first detested). (And then, later again, of experiencing a further reversal). Part of the problem is that one actually _can_ know better, not only than oneself at a previous stage, but than another person who is at that previous stage. That is, one now knows more concerning this activity. And then, it can bug the hell out of us to have to put up with an ass, braying. Then, one's caution with regard to one's own judgments looks uncalled-for. Let us imagine for a moment that Helen Vendler knows more about Post-WW2 British poetry than "we" do. How impatient she must be, with us! Still, one would like to see the evidence, if not of her taste forming, then of her research--the reading she has done in the field. Where she bogged down with Allen Fisher. Where she found Wallace Stevens preferable to Jeremy Prynne. What her readerly approach has been, to Tom Raworth, Maggie O'Sullivan, Wendy Mulford. Absent such, one has difficulty trusting that she has done her research (as much into oneself, such research, as into the field; as much, but not, more) even in the fields where she _is_ known as critic and canon-maker. Maybe even there, she's a merely charismatic well-situated person with intimidating powers of persuasion, whose preferences chanced to fit into a social or political agenda among the well-connected. We are to blame, after all, for according more respect to those who teach at Harvard than those who teach at Highland Community College, or those who don't teach at all, if we accord such respect simply because Harvard is where they do teach, and this or that prestigious university press, where they do publish. "The best lack all conviction, the worst are full of passionate intensity" --isnt that how Yeats phrases it? The passions of some persons' convictions have enslaved large portions of humanity.Some of whom, at some level, presumably wished to be enslaved : "Let Joe do it." We are bowled over by such single-mindedness, even where there isn't that much of _mind_ in it. We want to be told what to do, like, choose. Experts soothe. Therefore, ignore experts? But part of the difficulty, again, is, there _can_ be expertise. _We_ don't want know-nothings. Hence the battlefields of criticism. And poetry wars. Throughout History, time and again, the mildest-mannered of women and men have had to take arms against a sea of passionate intensity, or be drowned. Where poetry is the prize, Randolph Healy's modesty and patience, with their glimpse of fine sarcasm, may be the keenest weapon of them all. Otherwise, breaking arms and legs will have to do. But the (fill in name of favorite enemy here) keep a-comin' . Wherever a favorite intelligence lodges in our midst, the stupidity which is its shadow, fastens upon it like loathsome flies. And too, the times change, and we change. . . with them or against them. Blush for past passions! For they fail to recognize you. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 01:00:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: poetry in the age of medication Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thank you, Rachel, for a posting whose humor shows how to read my own posting : as T.R.Bell suggests to me, I speak "as-if." But in no way attempt to make fun of incest survivors, nor to cheapen their experience. More of this, perhaps, subsequently. I was pleasantly surprised to learn from Rachel's post of the PSA Journal's gathering of threads from the 4 corners & ends of the earth, on this topic of "first loves" in poetry. The passage from Charles Bernstein I found particularly engaging, and for those like myself who cannot get enough of the Master in this familiar, dis/respectful, jiving mode (he speaks of Khlebnikov as telling him bedtime poems), may I suggest my own work, "Six of One, Half a Dozen of the Other" where one reads of the author's encounter with Freud ("Facing my father he said, Not to worry. Then, patting my head, he added : later, he vill remember ziss differently") and D.H.Lawrence ("who should never have had to be a teacher. He wanted to be a poet, & he had too much sympathy with our condition to be of any use") and James Joyce ("who had been a famous cricketer in his day, though in later years he never left the attic where he'd sit day in day out going over old scorecards from his immense collection & reworking the games on paper to see why they hadn't come out differently"). Unknown, I expect, to anybody under 40, these pieces may be found in _The Falcon 13_ for Fall 1976, and then in _My Poetry_, The Figures Press, 1980. (This book was the first of a series of titles: _My Life_, _My Pleasures_ ,in Berkeley that year; I am delighted to find this original couching re-surfacing today with _My Symptoms_ and the upcoming Charles' _My Way_ .) Back to the beginning: to me (as I suspect, to Charles) the truth is a made thing; Reality's existence is read in many ways, and one reality of being a poet is that of a love/hate relationship with poetry. "Poetry that opens my lips and shuts my mouth." Poetry that inspires emulation. That shuts my mouth with itself. Poetry that, like a father, can point out that one owes one's life to him--a life that is not sound pay-back coin if it can only repeat. These are realities of our experience; in ways they are analagous to the double-bind of incest. I hope this makes matters plainer. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:44:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: my territory Imagine a hydrahead: Ashberybloomvendler. Imagine a nation of academic journals dedicated to securing tenure for professional poets who run contests and give awards and so on. Imagine a poetry counter-culture of shallow roots, a-historical hokum and spiritual posturing. Then think about Grand Fenwick. There's more poetry in one saying of the Sermon on the Mount than in all the writings of Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer, etc. put together. Am I impinging on your territory? I will lift mine eyes unto the hills, whence cometh my strength. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 08:28:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: poetry in the territories (response to Wheeler) In-Reply-To: <35C91808.6A23712E@concentric.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:42 PM -0700 8/5/98, Rachel Loden wrote: >Susan Wheeler wrote (in part): > >> Does anyone on this list, in their heart of hearts, not WANT this if it >> indeed means paradigms that are not arbitrarily territorial? . . . >> >> My own work may play as more "conservative" than much on this list (yes one >> of my poems was a Hollander selectee) but I'll freely admit I have not the >> courage of some of you in accepting the colors and wielding the weapons. To >> me, this territory war seems to me like the tiniest subset of larger >> cultural and economic dynamics, and I choose cowardice and selfishness in >> pretending that I can ignore categories in order to write with a greater >> sense of freedom, even if it be self-illusory -- instead of using up this >> energy in sandbagging the brittle dams the waves are toppling anyway. > >Hear hear. The poet wants free rein (or reign) but the territorialists, >who are not necessarily or usually the originators in any school, are >out in force. Why? Because marking territory, pissing on the snow you >own, is a form of marketing. > >So I'd disagree only about "cowardice and selfishness," unless we want >to call Ted Berrigan, for example, cowardly and selfish for reading what >he pleased. Poets are magpies--acquisitive and curious. But camp >followers and plodders are always out on patrol, making the world safe >for dullness. > >Rachel Loden i agree; which is one reason, to refer to my earlier somewhat self-absorbed post, i find much of the "school"-mongering that passes for scholarship in poetry circles to be not very stimulating; it doesn't open out into a larger view of the world... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:28:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: quotes o' the day In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980602163755.007b5dd0@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Brent Long" at Jun 2, 98 04:37:55 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I'd interoduce a couple quotes from my morning's reading which seem relevant to our recent Henry-ignited discussions, both from Burke's essay, "The Rhetoric of Hitler's Battle," Burke's reading of Mein Kampf as symbolic action: 1) "There are other ways of burning books than on the pyre - and the favorite method of the hasty revieer is to deprive himself and his readers by inattention...If the reviewer but knocks off a few adverse attitudinizings and calls it a day, with a guarantee in advance that his article will have a favorable reception among the decent members of our population, he is contributing more to out gratification than to our enlightenment." 2) "It is part of the genius of the great leader [read Adolph] to make adversaries of different fields appear as always belonging to one category only, because to weak and unstable characters the knowledge that there are various enemies will lead only too easily to incipient doubts as to their own cause." -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 11:57:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: quotes o' the day In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:28:55 -0400 from On Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:28:55 -0400 Michael Magee said: >Thought I'd interoduce a couple quotes from my morning's reading which >seem relevant to our recent Henry-ignited discussions, both from Burke's >essay, "The Rhetoric of Hitler's Battle," Burke's reading of Mein Kampf as >symbolic action: > >1) "There are other ways of burning books than on the pyre - and the >favorite method of the hasty revieer is to deprive himself and his readers >by inattention...If the reviewer but knocks off a few adverse >attitudinizings and calls it a day, with a guarantee in advance that his >article will have a favorable reception among the decent members of our >population, he is contributing more to out gratification than to our >enlightenment." > >2) "It is part of the genius of the great leader [read Adolph] to make >adversaries of different fields appear as always belonging to one category >only, because to weak and unstable characters the knowledge that there are >various enemies will lead only too easily to incipient doubts as to their >own cause." > >-m. O what joy to find myself compared to Hitler! I was hoping for Reagan, though... maybe the next stormtrooper can try that one. Luckily these screens are pellet-proof. Comparing somebody to Hitler is a good way to marginalize your opponent - hope everybody will remember that as we wade further into the poetics swamp for today. But seriously there, Mike - I don't think I've been tossing off negative attitudes to the converted, like some established reviewer putting down books. I have been negative, sarcastic, controversial about some things - mostly popular poetic styles that have held sway for about the same length of time as I've been writing myself (30 yrs). Yes, my resentment and ressentiment & so on is there, and that is a negative thing & a limitation. No, I don't have all the answers or think I do - I just like to be controversial & outrageous because it's fun & stimulates discussion. But maybe there's too much of me & of that, I admit. Secondly I don't think I've lumped enemies together etc. in the way Burke describes. So I don't see how that applies, if that's what you're trying to do. But if what I say scares you, makes you worried that maybe I've done irreparable damage to poetic reputations or careers, made it harder for you to enjoy poetry, well, just say so. Others have. I don't mean to roil up the clubhouse so much - everybody okay out there? Free spirits & all? Gaily traipsing through the fields of Zephyr or whatever? I'll shut up now, somebody can send in a positive review of something, cheer us all up. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:50:06 MST7MDT Reply-To: calexand@library.utah.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher W. Alexander" Organization: U of U Marriott Library Subject: this insulating sleeve is detrimental Comments: cc: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" , Matthias Regan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT the first thing is I shld apologize for posting blindly - as a few of you have noticed, I'm set "no mail" right now, due to the exigencies of moving, i.e., I'm soon to be leaving my job here and have a lot to get done before that time. the next thing (two) is to let all of you in on how to reach myself and Linda Russo in the coming weeks - new address information etc. as follows: 19 Hodge Ave. #9, Buffalo NY 14222 and by telephone: (716) 881-3915 anyone I've given this address to before today, please take note: I had been substituting "Street" for "Avenue". my email address will cease to be the familiar and beloved one you see before you, in favor of . mail from this address is being forwarded to me at work until I leave this job (thursday of next week). sorry to those of you who've rec'd no response to yr backchannels - I'm still here, I assure you, and I'll make my response asap. daniel bouchard, if yre still trying to reach me, now's yr chance! this relates to poetics b/c "apologize" has its roots in Apollo. c h r i s .. Christopher W. Alexander etc. / nominative press collective *new email: nonce@iname.com snail-mail: P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 *snail-mail after 16 August: 19 Hodge St. #9 / Buffalo NY 14222 press/zine site: http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 10:38:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: gotta go Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" have to step outside for a few days. sorry to be missing the debates.. david ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:51:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: quotes o' the day In-Reply-To: from "henry" at Aug 6, 98 11:57:54 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I should have anticipated Henry's equating Burke-on-Hitler to Magee-on-Burke (below) and said somehing more specific in my posting of quotes. For the record, I think there is a key difference between Hitler and Henry, as well as between causal critics of Hitler and Henry-as-critic: the difference lies in the fact that Henry has no "guarantee in advance" that he will get a "favorable reception" - indeed in most cases precisely the opposite. In fact, one of Henry's enduring roles on the list, to my mind, is to make sure that the list doesn't fall into a cycle of tacit self-gratification, which is why I'm generally happy to see his name pop up in all its permutations on my message board, & happy to respond when I have something to say. Henry's saving strength is his awareness that he is in fact in a conversation, albeit a rather combative one. So, peace brother. Now, that said, I would argue that Henry's rhetoric often functions in such a way that it "make(s) adversaries of different fields appear as always belonging to one category only," and that I am against such rhetorical strategies. Henry's motive, I would guess, couldn't be farther away from Hitler's: and in a sense it might be as "motive-less" as language can be, the result of a lack of knowledge regarding those "different fields" rather than a specific wish to lump those fields together for purposes extinguishing "the enemy." But language has a funny way of doing what it wants despite its originators consciousness or lack thereof and, as such, Henry's does indeed sometimes conjur up for me "the enemy of disjunctive poetics" which controls "The Academy" and "must be stopped." You see where I'm getting. -m. > O what joy to find myself compared to Hitler! I was hoping for Reagan, > though... maybe the next stormtrooper can try that one. Luckily these > screens are pellet-proof. Comparing somebody to Hitler is a good > way to marginalize your opponent - hope everybody will remember that > as we wade further into the poetics swamp for today. > > But seriously there, Mike - I don't think I've been tossing off > negative attitudes to the converted, like some established reviewer > putting down books. I have been negative, sarcastic, controversial > about some things - mostly popular poetic styles that have held sway > for about the same length of time as I've been writing myself (30 yrs). > Yes, my resentment and ressentiment & so on is there, and that is > a negative thing & a limitation. No, I don't have all the answers or > think I do - I just like to be controversial & outrageous because it's > fun & stimulates discussion. But maybe there's too much of me & of > that, I admit. Secondly I don't think I've lumped enemies together > etc. in the way Burke describes. So I don't see how that applies, > if that's what you're trying to do. But if what I say scares you, > makes you worried that maybe I've done irreparable damage to poetic > reputations or careers, made it harder for you to enjoy poetry, > well, just say so. Others have. I don't mean to roil up the > clubhouse so much - everybody okay out there? Free spirits & all? > Gaily traipsing through the fields of Zephyr or whatever? > I'll shut up now, somebody can send in a positive review of something, > cheer us all up. - Henry G. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:52:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: quotes o' the day In-Reply-To: <199808061751.NAA18720@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Michael Magee" at Aug 6, 98 01:51:10 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoops - "Magee-on-Burke" should read "Magee-on-Henry". -m. According to Michael Magee: > > I should have anticipated Henry's equating Burke-on-Hitler to > Magee-on-Burke (below) and said somehing more specific in my posting of > quotes. For the record, I think there is a key difference between Hitler > and Henry, as well as between causal critics of Hitler and > Henry-as-critic: the difference lies in the fact that Henry has no > "guarantee in advance" that he will get a "favorable reception" - indeed > in most cases precisely the opposite. In fact, one of Henry's enduring > roles on the list, to my mind, is to make sure that the list doesn't fall > into a cycle of tacit self-gratification, which is why I'm generally > happy to see his name pop up in all its permutations on my message board, > & happy to respond when I have something to say. Henry's saving strength > is his awareness that he is in fact in a conversation, albeit a rather > combative one. So, peace brother. > > Now, that said, I would argue that Henry's rhetoric often functions in > such a way that it "make(s) adversaries of different fields appear as > always belonging to one category only," and that I am against such > rhetorical strategies. Henry's motive, I would guess, couldn't be > farther away from Hitler's: and in a sense it might be as "motive-less" > as language can be, the result of a lack of knowledge regarding those > "different fields" rather than a specific wish to lump those fields > together for purposes extinguishing "the enemy." But language has a > funny way of doing what it wants despite its originators consciousness or > lack thereof and, as such, Henry's does indeed sometimes conjur up for me > "the enemy of disjunctive poetics" which controls "The Academy" and "must > be stopped." You see where I'm getting. -m. > > > > O what joy to find myself compared to Hitler! I was hoping for Reagan, > > though... maybe the next stormtrooper can try that one. Luckily these > > screens are pellet-proof. Comparing somebody to Hitler is a good > > way to marginalize your opponent - hope everybody will remember that > > as we wade further into the poetics swamp for today. > > > > But seriously there, Mike - I don't think I've been tossing off > > negative attitudes to the converted, like some established reviewer > > putting down books. I have been negative, sarcastic, controversial > > about some things - mostly popular poetic styles that have held sway > > for about the same length of time as I've been writing myself (30 yrs). > > Yes, my resentment and ressentiment & so on is there, and that is > > a negative thing & a limitation. No, I don't have all the answers or > > think I do - I just like to be controversial & outrageous because it's > > fun & stimulates discussion. But maybe there's too much of me & of > > that, I admit. Secondly I don't think I've lumped enemies together > > etc. in the way Burke describes. So I don't see how that applies, > > if that's what you're trying to do. But if what I say scares you, > > makes you worried that maybe I've done irreparable damage to poetic > > reputations or careers, made it harder for you to enjoy poetry, > > well, just say so. Others have. I don't mean to roil up the > > clubhouse so much - everybody okay out there? Free spirits & all? > > Gaily traipsing through the fields of Zephyr or whatever? > > I'll shut up now, somebody can send in a positive review of something, > > cheer us all up. - Henry G. > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 14:09:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: quotes o' the day In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:51:10 -0400 from But Mike, people are always using categories. I didn't invent the "disjunctive poetics" label. People have rightly complained about the level of abstraction in these poetics list debates - rightly, rightly - the whole strategy of opposing Pound/Yeats on the grid synthesis/disjunction is probably the biggest abstraction proposed yet. But I don't think that warrants comparing this strategy to Hitler & suggesting I'm too unread to know or care about the differences & unique qualities of the writing out there. When I say I have a quibble with the zeitgeist informing a lot of American poetry the fact is I do, hard to believe as that may be; when I say I am bored & fed up with a lot of the poetry that seems to reflect that zeitgeist that is exactly how I feel. It's not just boredom - it's really a sense of exile. I think it is legitimate in the field of poetics to talk about general trends; and I don't think using categories or abstract terms is a specifically Hitlerian strategy. Maybe talking too much is, I grant you that. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:43:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Charles Watts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" charles was a jewel a shiny brilliant mind half exposed enclosed in this solid chuck of ore he was happy a few short weeks back dinner at bukowski's on commercial before Dorothy and George's reading, happy afterwards at the Georgia Hotel where Gerry Gilbert took pictures, Charles bemused behind Clint Burnham on the striped couch charles knew but he let you make a fool of yourself anyway he wanted to hear what you had to say he had a big heart and a good ear almost as refined as blaser mild mannered and unassuming he talked the talk he read the books and he made the connections, truly a servant of poetry, right to the last few days he was correcting the galleys of the blaser conference proceedings: the poetry monster that is vancouver lost an arm and a leg and have a disconnected corpos calosum with the passing of charles watts, he made things happen without seeking praise or adulation, impeccable he dotted your teas and crossed your eyes remained a student to the finish, kept learning stayed young encouraged all, editor, publisher, scholar, friend, ones like him don't grow on trees billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Yeah, I stole from the treasury of human folly I spent it all on you, baby... don't mention it Duncan McNaughton ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:30:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: TO field duplicated. Last occurrence was retained. From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: The real Charlie Watts Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Comments: cc: McDoyle@axionet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The last time I corresponded with Charles Watts, a few months back, he told me t hat he was "fine," and that his melanoma was a thing of the past. His own attention was turned inst ead to the ever- delayed Ph.D. thesis and his excitement over Italy and all things Italian that a trip last summer had kindled. Other friends warned me otherwise about his health, so I knew what Pete r's notice was going to say even before I opened it, but it's hard news for us all. Krishna and I got to know and love Charles when he insisted that we stay with hi m for a few days of sight-seeing after the 1985 Vancouver Poetry Festival. In addition to being a pe rfect host and fabulous guide, he was a gentle, brilliant, far-too modest, extraordinarily well -read soul with the driest sense of humor I've encountered. A rolled eye and the barest upturned smile ofte n suggested sans words precisely what he thought of this or that event or person. It turned out that his life-long buddy Peter Magnani was (is) the brother of a w oman with whom I'd worked in the prison movement and I would encounter Charles and Peter at reading s, particularly at Canessa Park, when Charles came down to California for his annual visit with his family. More than once this led to dinner at Brandy Ho's or Hunan during which I got to pump him f or the latest scoop on the Vancouver scene. Charles introduced me to the work of several of the folk s north of the border whose writing I follow and his opinions caused me to rethink some first i mpressions of other writers. Charles first moved to Canada as a war resister in the late 1960s. I stayed at h ome and fought my induction notice (for seven years!) until I finally "qualified" for CO status, w hich was how I began doing prison movement work in the first place. We often speculated on how differ ent our lives might have been had either one of us taken the other's approach, or how different had the war in Indochina simply not happened. Charles' move was clearly Canada's gain and one more piece of evidence (not that any's needed) of how war wastes a nation's resources. Charles never published very much, but his devotion to (and understanding of) th e poetry scene was complete. Even at this distance, I'm convinced that he was indispensible to the worlds of poetry that he touched, especially the scene in Vancouver, and I have no idea how we will ge t along without him. It will certainly be a different world. I know that I've said and written this before, but it's worth repeating -- beyon d the pure pleasures of reading and writing, the greatest thing about poetry is how it permits you to me et some wonderful, even magical people all over the world. Charles was just such a person in my lif e. We should treasure and nurture each one. Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 21:13:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Wheeler Subject: Re: quotes o' the day Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I don't mean to roil up the >clubhouse so much - everybody okay out there? Free spirits & all? >Gaily traipsing through the fields of Zephyr or whatever? >I'll shut up now, somebody can send in a positive review of something, >cheer us all up. - Henry G. > Henry, your acumen alone cheers me up. Let alone generosity. I'm forwarding this notice that just came my way: KGB Poetry Readings Fall 1998 Series Directed by Star Black & David Lehman Monday, Sept 28: Bernadette Mayer & Ron Padgett Monday, October 5: Ruth Stone & Rosanne Wasserman Monday, October 12: John Hollander & Julia Kasdorf Monday, October 19: Charles Bernstein & Carole Maso Monday, October 26: Deborah Garrison & Philip Levine Monday, November 2: Harry Mathews & Albert Mobilio Monday, November 9: Vincent Katz & Claudia Rankine Monday, November 16: Joan Larkin & Jaime Manrique Monday, November 23: No Reading Monday, November 30: Bob Hershon & Bill Zavatsky Monday, December 7: Bruce Andrews & C. D. Wright KGB is at 85 East 4th Street. All reading begin at 7:30. Free! They're as free as freedom. Susan Wheeler susan.wheeler@nyu.edu voice/fax (212) 254-3984 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:03:08 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: instead of a pineapple Content-Type: text/plain Thanks, Rachel. As a matter of fact I already have that book. -Mark D >Bill Luoma wrote: > >> ><> >> > >> >ok Mark D., what do you want? > >One good thing to want (and I wanted it more than a pineapple) is Bill's >new book _Works & Days_ (Hard Press/The Figures), a sort of cracked >comic memoir. > >"It's a big world out there, and thanks to perception management it >appears to be getting smaller." > >Rachel > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 23:37:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Asif NOT related to recent posts here Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As if there were water we forge on forge on.

The Metaphor of Play

"The proto-conversation between the 2-month-old baby and

the mother is between I and the other. There is no self

in it. A third element needs to be found for self to

evolve. This element is the

world-to-be-manipulated." Russell Meares.

Toy

Don't toy with me.

He's got the whole world in his hand, the whole world

in her hand.

The construction of the poem is the experience of a

poem between me and I

As if we had the answer we ask. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 07:50:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: marginalized poets? - not so fast! In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980602163755.007b5dd0@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Brent Long" at Jun 2, 98 04:37:55 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit If you'll all thumb through to page 174 of the latest issue of Glamour Magazine you'll be welcomed by a photo of none other than Lee Ann Brown, Lisa Jarnot, and Eleni Sikelianos, under the heading "Women are Making Poetry Hot Again," w/ commentary. "Who are the new female poets?" the writer asks: Elizabeth Willis, Jena Osman, Lee Ann, Eleni, Lisa, Juliana Spahr, Hoa Nguyen, Deborah Garrison. You go girls! I for one am thrilled that Glamour is giving such fine poets their props (no mention, unfortunately, of the fact that two of them appear in the inaugural issue of COMBO). Thanks to my wife Susanna for discovering this while thumbing through Glamour at the supermarket. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:07:22 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: marginalized poets? - not so fast! In-Reply-To: <199808071150.HAA45718@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 7:50 AM -0400 8/7/98, Michael Magee wrote: >If you'll all thumb through to page 174 of the latest issue of Glamour >Magazine you'll be welcomed by a photo of none other than Lee Ann Brown, >Lisa Jarnot, and Eleni Sikelianos, under the heading "Women are Making >Poetry Hot Again," w/ commentary. "Who are the new female poets?" the >writer asks: Elizabeth Willis, Jena Osman, Lee Ann, Eleni, Lisa, Juliana >Spahr, Hoa Nguyen, Deborah Garrison. You go girls! I for one am thrilled >that Glamour is giving such fine poets their props (no mention, >unfortunately, of the fact that two of them appear in the inaugural issue >of COMBO). Thanks to my wife Susanna for discovering this while thumbing >through Glamour at the supermarket. -m. a big fat YAAAY a la kellogg jr to these groovy chicks. who wrote the article i wonder? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:13:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: marginalized poets? - not so fast! In-Reply-To: from "Maria Damon" at Aug 7, 98 08:07:22 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The article was written by Dawn Michelle Baude. A big fat YAAAY to her as well. -m. According to Maria Damon: > > At 7:50 AM -0400 8/7/98, Michael Magee wrote: > >If you'll all thumb through to page 174 of the latest issue of Glamour > >Magazine you'll be welcomed by a photo of none other than Lee Ann Brown, > >Lisa Jarnot, and Eleni Sikelianos, under the heading "Women are Making > >Poetry Hot Again," w/ commentary. "Who are the new female poets?" the > >writer asks: Elizabeth Willis, Jena Osman, Lee Ann, Eleni, Lisa, Juliana > >Spahr, Hoa Nguyen, Deborah Garrison. You go girls! I for one am thrilled > >that Glamour is giving such fine poets their props (no mention, > >unfortunately, of the fact that two of them appear in the inaugural issue > >of COMBO). Thanks to my wife Susanna for discovering this while thumbing > >through Glamour at the supermarket. -m. > > a big fat YAAAY a la kellogg jr to these groovy chicks. who wrote the > article i wonder? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 07:27:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: 42 Little Ways to Happier Love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Let the torrid source text work for you — creating a structural glow that comes from multiple orgasm, not layers of blush and dissonance. From letting your morphemes shine to flaunting untamed, just-slipped-out-of-the-swimming-pool syntax, this is the season to let go and fall in love — with your own sultry lacunae --Rachel Loden Michael Magee wrote: > > If you'll all thumb through to page 174 of the latest issue of Glamour > Magazine you'll be welcomed by a photo of none other than Lee Ann Brown, > Lisa Jarnot, and Eleni Sikelianos, under the heading "Women are Making > Poetry Hot Again," w/ commentary. "Who are the new female poets?" the > writer asks: Elizabeth Willis, Jena Osman, Lee Ann, Eleni, Lisa, Juliana > Spahr, Hoa Nguyen, Deborah Garrison. You go girls! I for one am thrilled > that Glamour is giving such fine poets their props (no mention, > unfortunately, of the fact that two of them appear in the inaugural issue > of COMBO). Thanks to my wife Susanna for discovering this while thumbing > through Glamour at the supermarket. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:08:49 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry oh-oh Subject: 1 more dizjunk peep Will try to salvage something from my side of the disjunct divide for the fit though few, and will try to be brief. Randolph Healy reminded us that "disjunctive" (new word, anybody?) poets "put things together". Good point. Obviously 20th cent poetry's glories include the leaps, the freedom, the documentary openness, the new forms, the new contents, that Pound's big "grab bag" opened up. So many forces & influences have pushed in a centrifugal direction. Open up any poem almost by bestboy Mandelstam & you find disjunction like a natch'l born schizophrenic. Music, science, technology, speed, relativity, knowledge-boom... poetry HAD to spread the net in order to be real. (when it wasn't ahead of the times). People think (maybe rightly considering my snarling) I have an agenda, to turn back the clock, to denigrate language poetry & experiment & difference. These are or would be reactionary tactics, true enough, if that were all. But that is not exactly the case. All I ask is that some of you consider the possibility that I am suggesting something positive rather than simply tearing down. In a nutshell I am suggesting that there is always a repressed "other side" of any dominant cultural direction. One other side of our current zeitgeist of difference, otherness, disjunction, fragmentation would be world views that recognize continuity (aesthetic, ontological), synthesis, unity-of- being, wholeness. The mistake is to consider these representative of any particular cultural or political establishment & reject them out of hand. In my view the most radical challenge to a world order still enslaved to political violence and organized war (thinking of Ron Silliman's interesting note on his & C. Watts' C.O. experience during Vietnam war) comes from religious belief: Franciscan, Buddhist, Quaker, anarchist... While most religious philosophies long ago confronted the paradoxes of otherness and the unknown, unlike some contemporary ideologies they do not simply deny the existence of unity or synthesis of being. Enough about philosophy. Let me disjunct over to the recent issue of GERM. I haven't read all of it yet, but I think the issue both displays some of the tried & true techniques I criticized before (fragmentary syntax, almost total obscurity of meaning(s)), and also quite a bit of artistry. Beth Anderson's series of poems stands out as different from the rest I read anyway. The most obvious difference is syntactical continuity and stylistic consistency. There are 4-5 poems which seem sort of Ashbery- Mallarme, in a consistent extremely neutral tone. Late 20th-cent symbolism: music of language, a serious, almost somber modern music. As in Ashbery, it's a beautiful syntax but sort of with the meaning hollowed out, at least the obvious meaning-packages. The music comes to the fore - but there is this distinctive, complex continuity & consistency of style. Devin Johnston's sequence was interesting too: like a Susan Howe protege, steeped in original 17-18th century texts, but also in Eliot and Crane, there's clearly a synthetic motivation at work & an awareness of rhythm & harmony. I am not singling these out as "approved" texts from the journal - I am trying to point out elements of synthetic as opposed to disjunctive composition at work. I am trying to suggest that syntax CAN be an integral part of structural rhythm, and that structural rhythm CAN be put to a coherent, synthetic authorial purpose. And to me the original contrast of Yeats/Pound is apropos here. I am talking about the lexical tools of poetry & suggesting that it is not enough to tear apart & throw into a grab bag anymore, no matter what hoary postmodernist truisms or ideals of class/identity politics or self-interested company histories of alternative art are brought to bear. I am suggesting looking for other means at work, other motivations. Every time you break apart a sentence, consider the cost. It's one more broken string on your bow. Is it worth it? Can you still shoot your arrows? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:31:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: 1 more dizjunk peep In-Reply-To: from "Henry oh-oh" at Aug 7, 98 10:08:49 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I am talking about the lexical tools of poetry & suggesting that it is > not enough to tear apart & throw into a grab bag anymore, no matter > what hoary postmodernist truisms or ideals of class/identity politics > or self-interested company histories of alternative art are brought > to bear. I am suggesting looking for other means at work, other > motivations. Every time you break apart a sentence, consider the > cost. It's one more broken string on your bow. Is it worth it? > Can you still shoot your arrows? > > - Henry Gould > I feel bad that I just can't put this down but I need, again, to make an exception: I think you're confusing "breaking apart a sentence" with writing a sentence which some people will consider broken. These are two totally different things. the first is based on an assumption that there is such a thing as a sentence and that this thing can be accurately recognized and measured according to certain criteria. The second attempts to create the definition of a sentence in the act of fashioning. So, no, I never, ever break sentences; I simply write a different kind of sentence (Monk's definition of his style: "How to use notes differently. That's it. Just how to use notes differently"). Vernacular traditions have always recognized this possibility, and the danger of putting a priori limits on communicative agency. The old joke, where the liguist says to his class, "There is no grammarical formation in which two positives equal a negative," and someone yells from the back of the room, "Yeah, right." I imagine that must have given those classmates a sense of breathing room to do their own thing. In my own work I see lots of possibilities for, if not "wholeness" exactly, then shared signs, or as Robert Duncan put it, "fictive certainties" - its just that these have less to do with the sanctioned rules of sentence construction than they do w/ what I hear around me - or dream up - in the shape of new, liminal, structures of "getting across," ones which I think better fit my sense of the real, or better fit my sense of what that real should be (the utopian commitment implicit in a belief in symbolic action). I remember laughing out loud the first time I hear the Beastie Boys lyric, "I got more rhymes than J.D.'s got Salinger" - of course, JD *doesn't* have Salinger, according to the rules of syntax, and yet he does, & I felt like I'd gotten something of the point. There's a *big* difference betwen just wanting to smash stuff up and trying to find structures compatible w/ ones evolving desires. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:47:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "tracy s. ruggles" Subject: Re: 1 more dizjunk peep Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit On Friday, August 7, 1998 7:08:49 AM, Henry oh-oh wrote: [ ... ] > >I am talking about the lexical tools of poetry & suggesting that it is >not enough to tear apart & throw into a grab bag anymore, no matter >what hoary postmodernist truisms or ideals of class/identity politics >or self-interested company histories of alternative art are brought >to bear. I am suggesting looking for other means at work, other >motivations. Every time you break apart a sentence, consider the >cost. It's one more broken string on your bow. Is it worth it? >Can you still shoot your arrows? > I'm probably jumping in at the tail end of this thread, but this last paragraph has inspired me to say something. To say, "every time you _break apart_ a sentence, consider the cost..." has an assumption buried in it that a poet begins with sentences as a frame of reference, or that a poet comes to a raw, previously written work to break it apart. I would also add a caution, "every time you _form_ a sentence, consider the cost." I have been "looking for other means at work" and I, personally, have found that in order to touch some sort of truth in writing, I've got to begin with nothing, a blank page, emptiness. Of course, history, styles, traditions, politics, personal preferences, etc. are all swirling around in my mind and have their influences, but when I investigate the pure physicality of writing, there is the "problem" of a blank page (or computer screen, canvas, etc.), and then, how to _begin_. So, I may be way off-base here, but the whole of disjunctive work has taught me not to question the modalities that it attempts to break apart, but to question the act of creating a work and all that that entails. It may be that when I write, I write a perfect sonnet. It may also be that when I edit it, I break it apart. Or it also may be that I write the broken sonnet without having written the perfect sonnet. Or I just write a few words and leave it at that. "Can you still shoot your arrows?" Assuming that I'm even here to shoot anything, I'm not sure. I'm still learning. (I hope I haven't jumped into a thread that's bigger than what I think) --trace-- And, like other here, I want to thank Henry for asking these questions... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:49:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: 1 more dizjunk peep In-Reply-To: <199808071531.LAA51590@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I think you're confusing "breaking apart a sentence" with >writing a sentence which some people will consider broken. These are two >totally different things. the first is based on an assumption that there >is such a thing as a sentence and that this thing can be accurately >recognized and measured according to certain criteria. The second >attempts to create the definition of a sentence in the act of fashioning. >So, no, I never, ever break sentences; I simply write a different kind of >sentence (Monk's definition of his style: "How to use notes differently. >That's it. Just how to use notes differently"). Or, on the one hand, using the weight of traditional usage, perhaps even with allowed variance, or beyond that but always with reference to accepted usage vs treating language as material, being able to place a word here, a letter there, a mark on one side, a phrase on the other, and believe that the 'sense' one makes with such strategies is at least as important/interesting as the 'sense' one might make with more traditional usage knowing all the while that we never entirely escape the centuries of built-up rules and conventions governing normative language use, and perhaps (this point is arguable) we would not want to escape such norms but we want to make other voices/gestures/styles/arrangements possible, too as we extend what it is we might do in a poem or other written/sounded/projected work as we extend how such things might be read to me there is a good parallel in this ongoing discussion with activities in the world of bookmaking, where some will only accept the traditional codex form as a 'book,' while others are just busily making various structures which still offer themselves as one kind of gathering or another, able to be 'read' charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:09:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: fadenya badenya MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is the difference that makes meaning always only oppositional, dialectic? Small boat appraisal guide ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 09:18:10 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: Mina review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Check out David Buuck's fabulous, smart, sensitive, informed, review of The Letters of Mina Harker at the Electronic Book Review: http://www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/rev7/r7buu.htm I feel so lucky and thrilled to have this piece written about my book. Dodie Bellamy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:03:46 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: fadenya badenya In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:09:17 -0400 from >Is the difference that makes meaning always only oppositional, dialectic? > >Small boat >appraisal >guide "The relationship of our intellect to the truth is like that of a polygon to a circle; the resemblance to the circle grows with the multiplication of the angles of the polygon; but apart from its being reduced to identity with the circle, no multiplication, even if it were infinite, of its angles will make the polygon equal to the circle. "It is clear, therefore, that all we know of the truth is that the absolute truth, such as it is, is beyond our reach. The truth, which can be neither more nor less than it is, is the most absolute necessity, while, in contrast to it, our intellect is possibility. Therefore, the quiddity of things, which is ontological truth, is unattainable in its entirety; and though it has been the objective of all philosophers, by none has it been found as it really is. The more profoundly we learn this lesson of ignorance, the closer we draw to truth itself." - Nicolas Cusanus, OF LEARNED IGNORANCE, 1440. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 10:17:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: fadenya badenya In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 12:09 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >Is the difference that makes meaning always only oppositional, dialectic? > >Small boat >appraisal >guide > > I certainly hope not paper aloft generous apprehension charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:22:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: 1 more dizjunk peep In-Reply-To: Message of Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:49:30 -0700 from The Ultimate Authority, Poeta Superbissima Osip Mandelstam, once wrote: poetic material is language in its raw state, infinitely more raw than speech & "literature". This accords well with Mike, Tracy & Charles's points. Points well taken. Still, I would argue that boilerplate experimental poetry is made up of either abrupt jumps between single words & partial phrases, or neutral simple sentences - neutral in the sense of being so contextless as to mean anything you want them to mean. And I would suggest, and have been suggesting, that those who want to consider themselves adventurous and experimental might look in the direction of verbal & syntactical richness, complexity, development, and synthesis as well as in the direction of staccato idioms of their own devising. There are a lot of ways to shoot arrows. Imagine a poetry that didn't foreground its verbal mannerisms, but built up an organ-like presentation of communications based on comprehensible speech patterns. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:02:37 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Germ (s) (ans) (any) (inal) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So how do I get my hands on a copy of Germ? Backchannel info appreciated. Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:02:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Outlet review cc's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Outlet is starting a reviews column to be written by various people (if you're interested in reviewing, contact me). If you are a chapbook publisher, that's what we want to see please, review copies! Our particular interest is poetry chapbooks, fiction also ok - especially 'experimental' -- especially small press. Thanks. Elizabeth Treadwell Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:57:37 +0100 Reply-To: suantrai@iol.ie Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "L. MacMahon and T.R. Healy" Subject: Re: Outlet review cc's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Elizabeth, I run a small poetry press called Wild Honey Press. Will be glad to send copies for potential review. I'd also like to write some reviews. If you wish to see some examples of my "work" (it's pleasure really), I can send some. best wishes and congrats on such a good idea Randolph Healy 16a Ballyman Rd, Bray, Co. Wicklow, Ireland. from suantrai@iol.ie ---------- > From: Elizabeth Treadwell > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Outlet review cc's > Date: 07 August 1998 19:02 > > Outlet is starting a reviews column to be written by various people (if > you're interested in reviewing, contact me). If you are a chapbook > publisher, that's what we want to see please, review copies! Our particular > interest is poetry chapbooks, fiction also ok - especially 'experimental' -- > especially small press. > > Thanks. > > Elizabeth Treadwell > > Outlet, a periodical > Double Lucy Books > P.O. Box 9013 > Berkeley, California 94709 > U.S.A. > http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:10:26 -0700 Reply-To: Robert Corbett Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: All things nicholian In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In the spirit of getting a positive thread going, what do people on the list have to say about bp nichol. I noticed that the phrasing of the conference abstract suggests that he is still alive. I take it this means his influence lives on, but in the midst of the matyrology, one can be forgiven for mixing up presence and absence. As a start, can someone confirm for me whether nichol was a student of Robin Blaser? Or is his work developed along a parallel circuit with the notion of serialism (is it surrealism) as poetic method? Robert Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 12:57:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: Re: All things nicholian In-Reply-To: <199886201126519169@ix.netcom.com> from "rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM" at Aug 6, 98 07:30:54 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is in response to Robert's e-mail re bpNichol & influence. It's certain his influence is alive and well. And to further a point made implicit in your post: In an issue of th _Capilano Review_ (summer 1995?) Robin Blaser sd that Nichol was "top of the heap." i've always taken Blaser's comment very seriously, and won't argue. There is also much scholarship on Nichol currently in the works. It's very exciting. Whenever i talk to people about Nichol they say things like "he was connected" -- to what? with what? WHAT! . . . something sacred. i think the poetic relationship between Blaser and Nichol--is intimate. And then the one between Nichol and Duncan remains to be written. Altho from what i have learned, i don't think Nichol was ever all that taken by Duncan's work. Maybe he felt it was a bit inaccessible. Maybe Nichol's sense or idea of the sacred is more immediate, everyday, and ordinary. But then so might Duncan's. i dunno. Blaser--Duncan--bpNichol . . . very inneresting! Nichol's "Talking About The Sacred in Writing" (in _Tracing The Paths_) is very useful. . . . "Godness" in terms of "pataphysics . . . c. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:20:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: aldon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit can someone email me aldon nielsen's hard copy address as i seem to have temporarily lost it. thanks, bill luoma maz881@aol.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 13:41:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carl Lynden Peters Subject: bpNichol feature In-Reply-To: <199808071957.MAA24055@beaufort.sfu.ca> from "Carl Lynden Peters" at Aug 7, 98 12:57:13 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry, forgot to mention before that _West Coast Line_ just published excerpts from Nichol's last notebook. It's just out this week. carl ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:12:46 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles made a comment about Henry's commentary fitting into certain aspects of the bookmaking realm. Which mused me with similarities for a few days. A fine press uses hand set type, sewn signatures, spine covers, textured paper stocks, to create a book into a made thing with a sense of typography and place, not a generated commodity. "When the purpose of printing is to produce cheap, disposable copies, as is the case with paperbacks, high-speed rotary presses are functional and acceptable. Such means, however, seldom provide the esthetic aspect of reading-- the look and feel of a good page." Warren Campbell, _A short history of the printed word_ We are missing the book here. There are generative commodity writer's out there on any side seen worthy to name. In the way that MFA programs have given us plenty of "competent writers," the more "experimental" based programs give us a different ilk with similar results. Except in rare instances, the total book has disappeared through the falsity of sentence fracture. Why should it matter if the sentence was written out first then fractured or written for fracture, when the results are the same tired notion sacked from "A roll of the dice will abolish chance?" Late last century is hardly innovation. Where the looks of a piece are the show not an aspect thereof like how revising history through the guise of a new film prepares us in spirit for the next, not to denigrate the last. It reminds me of a study presented before the American Marketing Association a few years back. Truthful advertisements fail, but false ones succeed in placing end use consumers in a buying mode. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 17:59:37 EDT Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: henry Comments: Originally-From: David Baratier From: henry Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David Baratier said: ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Charles made a comment about Henry's commentary fitting into certain aspects of the bookmaking realm. Which mused me with similarities for a few days. A fine press uses hand set type, sewn signatures, spine covers, textured paper stocks, to create a book into a made thing with a sense of typography and place, not a generated commodity. [**] We are missing the book here. There are generative commodity writer's out there on any side seen worthy to name. In the way that MFA programs have given us plenty of "competent writers," the more "experimental" based programs give us a different ilk with similar results. Except in rare instances, the total book has disappeared through the falsity of sentence fracture. Why should it matter if the sentence was written out first then fractured or written for fracture, when the results are the same tired notion sacked from "A roll of the dice will abolish chance?" Late last century is hardly innovation. Where the looks of a piece are the show not an aspect thereof like how revising history through the guise of a new film prepares us in spirit for the next, not to denigrate the last. It reminds me of a study presented before the American Marketing Association a few years back. Truthful advertisements fail, but false ones succeed in placing end use consumers in a buying mode. [end of quote] - - - - - - - -- - - - - The creation of the unique art-book is related to the exchange between poetry & visual art in concrete poetry, & the suggestion of bpNichol as an antidote to the negative/dialectic haggling over the dizjunk issue. From his book titles alone (all I've seen of it for now) Nichol seems to be somebody with a sense of humor & a strong art-sense, a spiritual independence, pure joie-de-vivre. Poetry needs to draw sustenance from this kind of life & example. On the other hand I think poetry has strange spiritual weapons (Blake, Hopkins, Dickinson, Shakespeare, Milton, come to mind) which are in the word itself and transcend the mode of presentation to some extent; poetry has its resources, sui generis, just as visual art does, which I have been trying to point out in the emphasis on clear speech etc. Perhaps the most radical aspect of pure art is the sense of play which as Jordan pointed out ain't dialectical but generous... calling down judgement on the utilitarian, mechanical, pre- artistic or sub-artistic, the careerist, the arriviste, the noisy, the ideological, the rational, the irrational, the graceless, purely on the basis of its graceful presence amongst us... its fulfillment of its own joyful prerogatives... that takes a certain gift & sweat... - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 18:36:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Oliver Subject: Re: Snuff and more Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A few other Brits on my previous list: John James, most elegant not so much recent work as heretofore, Roy Fisher -- good book out from Bloodaxe, Ian Patterson and many others of the Cambridge fraternity and, slightly, sorority, and I'm told of Hugh Maxton veteran of the Irish Other wing. Others could be rescued: the slender, valuable work of Mark Hyatt, Brian Marley, and so forth. But thassnuff names, I'm sure, for you are beginning to hate me. What I'll do now is dive back on to my other list, the Britpo, and talk about some US names. See the little winged Mercury heels. We need to know more over there, too, and is there a good anthology of American poetry *published in Britain* that I've somehow missed? Can anyone inform me? I'll ask the Brits too. Hail and Farewell, temporarily no doubt. Doug ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:27:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: Re: fadenya badenya Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > At 12:09 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote: >Is the difference that makes meaning always only oppositional, dialectic? > >Small boat >appraisal >guide Dear Small Boat, Good question. Alas, I'm not shore.And it's hard to stay current. I think, though, I get your drift. Of course: check your star-board on occasion, especially amid*ships. And stay trim; Yours truly, River-o'-dreams ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 21:33:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment In-Reply-To: <35CB357E.42B06422@megsinet.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I generally agree with this, except I don't see the problem as being that books are mass-produced, and that really good 'total books' (a questionable phrase, Blanchot might say) must be hand-made/letterpressed etc. (as bourgeoise fetish-objects). Simply, typography does certain things with certain materials, and this is too easily forgotten as typography is ostensibly to remain transparent, to somehow assure the total delivery of the text. There are some poems that do great things on a photocopied page. I try to remember with my work on Aporia that the type itself is performative..... Ryan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 19:24:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Subject: Charles Watts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Like Senor Silliman, I also knew what the notice from Peter was going to be on the list but I still reeled into a pretty shocky state. I spoke with a friend later who said,"No. We knew Charles was dying" but I did not know that at all. Many years ago, Charles had meningitus and spent months in hospital. I still remember the sick anxiety of impending loss. But Charles came through being that close to death and lived for a good long time before the cancer showed up. He'd had operations and various treatments, was taking a lot of really good supplements, was taking care of himself and was continuing to work but being very mindful of his health, was not putting in excessive hours at Special Collections, as he'd a tendancy to do. I know he'd been putting in long days with Ted Byrne on the Blaser papers but I do think he was pacing himself to not become overtaxed. I just always believed he would prevail, as ever. I so appreciate Peter Quartermain's sensitivity in the initial posting and Bowering, Little and Silliman's tributes and reminiscences, particularly mention of Charles's sense of humour which could be paradoxically droll yet giggly. I always valued of Charles that he truly seemed to enjoy my own socially inappropriate daftness as a worthy lark rather than pathologizing me/'it' as many other real grown-ups were wont to do. & the giggle was right out there when years ago I shared with him plans to form a LOUD BAND called the Pound Scholars. Charles enjoyed his neighbourhood and his terrific neighbours, including Lisa Robertson right upstairs. He had friends with him towards the end and at the end and I am very glad that he was with those he cared for and who cared for him so much. I last saw Charles at the reading I did with Bowering a few weeks back and Charles was as he will always be for me the Best Company. I am having so much sadness with all of us in Vancouver. We have so much loss and so much to remember. We'll probably be putting something together along similar lines as the Kathy Acker Memorial Benefit through the Kootenay School of Writing, possibly at the Western Front sometime in September but its really early days on this. Take care everyone, xxxx Dorothy Trujillo Lusk dolly@intergate.bc.ca 765 Sawyer's Lane Vancouver, BC V5Z 3Z8 (604)708-0336 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 03:27:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: ISEA98 (completed '96) from Jennifer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII http://www.isea98.org/people/sondheim/jennifer/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 07:15:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: fadenya badenya In-Reply-To: <19980807232704.9356.qmail@www09.netaddress.usa.net> from "Christian Roess" at Aug 7, 98 07:27:06 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I would say no - that it is not always oppositional, thoug it probably is always, in some sense, dialectic: a questioning a old strategies, a proposal of new ones. But certainly a praxis focussed merely on opposition, in failing to provide alternatives, misses the boat. This is why Jameson's Marxism is so dependent on descriptions of Marxian utopias: as he "explains" to some degree toward the end of the POlitical Unconscious, those invented utopias have a key purpose, they awaken both dissatisfaction (w/ present conditions) and desire (for what has been described). & it's that latter conection between utopian description and desire that I would say is *not* precisely oppositional in nature. Jameson leanrs this from Burke who, in turn, learned it from Dewey. Dewey describes how the pragmatist might use ideal formulations, not to argue there ontological validity, but for the complex set of negotiations which they engender: "the idea becomes a standpoint from which to examine existing occurrences...the suggestion or fancy though still ideal is treated as a possibility capable of realization *in* the concrete natural world. As such, it becomes a platform from which to scrutinize natural events." This seems to me to be one motivation behind a lot of experimental writing: it has a propositional quality, and treats new ways of writing/speaking as potentially viable forms of communication. -m. According to Christian Roess: > > > > > At 12:09 PM 8/7/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Is the difference that makes meaning always only oppositional, dialectic? > > > >Small boat > >appraisal > >guide > > > Dear Small Boat, > > Good question. Alas, I'm not shore.And it's hard to stay current. I think, though, I get your drift. Of course: check your star-board on occasion, especially amid*ships. > > And stay trim; > > Yours truly, > > River-o'-dreams > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________ > Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:29:33 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: bp studies In-Reply-To: <199808080403.WAA11941@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's quite a bit on bpNichol out there, & I have no doubt much more to come. For those who knew him, he is still 'present,' & for those who only come to him in the writing, I believe he will be a living force. Stephen Scobie's early book, _bpNichol: What History Teaches_ still available from talonbooks ECWPress still has copies of _bpNichol and His Works_ (my monograph from 1992). There was the special issue of West Coast Line _Tracing the Paths: Reding/Writing the martyrology_ edited by Roy Miki, also from talonbooks; & now, from _West Coast Line_ , _Beyond the Orchard: Essays on the martyrology_, edited by Roy Miki & Fred Wah. from _Open Letter_ (6th series, Nos 5-6 [Summer-Fall 1986[): _Read the Way He Writes: a Festschrift for bpNichol_. Those will give anyone a good start & with bp, it's always a good start... Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 If a city is an invention why are we not there Kathleen Fraser ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:58:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Kass Fleisher piece MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Everyone on this list should treat him or herself to our own Kassia (Kass) Fleisher's piece in the current electronic book review (http:///www.altx.com/ebr/reviews/review7fleisher> called "oh Say Can You see It's All a Show" on the Clinton Capers. It is BRILLIANT, HILARIOUS, AND SAD. Same issue has a piece by Loss Glazier that I shall call up next. xxx Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 12:31:03 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: your territory (& welcome to it) Content-Type: text/plain Go to those hills, for all I care. I'm sorry to be blunt. If I believed, for example, that Yeats' poetry was of little worth (which I don't!), I wouldn't have the bad taste to go trumpeting that opinion about as if the judgements of other intelligent readers were as grains of sand compared to my monolithic literary intelligence (ego). Was it you in a post awhile back who suggested that the current avant garde literary scene was self-involved? Take the log out of your own eye-- as Christ would say. Your scholar, Mark DuCharme >Imagine a hydrahead: Ashberybloomvendler. > >Imagine a nation of academic journals dedicated to securing tenure for >professional poets who run contests and give awards and so on. > >Imagine a poetry counter-culture of shallow roots, a-historical hokum and >spiritual posturing. > >Then think about Grand Fenwick. > >There's more poetry in one saying of the Sermon on the Mount than in all >the writings of Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer, etc. put together. >Am I impinging on your territory? I will lift mine eyes unto the hills, >whence cometh my strength. > > >- Henry Gould > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 17:02:13 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ryan: the total book is a mallarmean notion. I thought this was obvious from the mention of Un coup de des jamais. Perhaps not. Read Cook's Mallarme on John's Hopkins. The comparative referent was how the medium of bookmaking has changed, and the transience of that change over time has caused a lowering of standards of what is published. From dime store novels to current disposable poetry. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 15:24:34 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: Kass Fleisher piece MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Joe Safdie: I look forward to your response--I like good arguments! All best wishes, Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 17:22:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: your territory (& welcome to it) In-Reply-To: <19980808193104.11090.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Henry hardly needs my help to defend himself. Let me just say that while I disagree with him about the Sermon on the Mount (they were platitudes even then, Henry), you seem to have misconstrued his attitude towards Yeats. I've noticed in myself and others that artists tend to value, when we rank other artrists, those whom we find useful to or related to our own work at the moment of judgement. This is because, I think, we interact with their work differently than either the lay audience or the teacher or critic. And it's difficult to wear more than one of these hats at a time, which is why I try to avoid teaching a great many poets whom others find essential. I also (caveat to Henry) have found myself at times promoting with religous ferocity poets I couldn't abide not long before. As my work evolves (or devolves) towards or away from the work of another my tastes modify. At 12:31 PM 8/8/98 PDT, you wrote: >Go to those hills, for all I care. I'm sorry to be blunt. If I >believed, for example, that Yeats' poetry was of little worth (which I >don't!), I wouldn't have the bad taste to go trumpeting that opinion >about as if the judgements of other intelligent readers were as grains >of sand compared to my monolithic literary intelligence (ego). Was it >you in a post awhile back who suggested that the current avant garde >literary scene was self-involved? Take the log out of your own eye-- as >Christ would say. > >Your scholar, > >Mark DuCharme > > >>Imagine a hydrahead: Ashberybloomvendler. >> >>Imagine a nation of academic journals dedicated to securing tenure for >>professional poets who run contests and give awards and so on. >> >>Imagine a poetry counter-culture of shallow roots, a-historical hokum >and >>spiritual posturing. >> >>Then think about Grand Fenwick. >> >>There's more poetry in one saying of the Sermon on the Mount than in >all >>the writings of Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer, etc. put >together. >>Am I impinging on your territory? I will lift mine eyes unto the >hills, >>whence cometh my strength. >> >> >>- Henry Gould >> > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 20:34:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Subject: Re: ME "on" list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey Joe! Nice to hear from you. Yeah, Charles WAS great. Just got a nice message from Bill Luoma remembering him. Thamx too,Bill & aloha. As for being "on" the list--it's an odd thing really, I'd not thought of doing postings and such--I only just figured out how to do them (apologies to any for any errors of form &c)--in this instance,however,because of our friend Charles, there somehow seemed to me a need for a response in a public testimony. Umm--well--what do I "think". Well I'm mostly on this list for access to information and the movement of information that is of some concern to the Kootenay School of Writing (ie:there is a posting that a writer we'd be interested in coming to x location & maybe we can get that person as well on the same trip) & personally, to see what other people are nattering on poetics. I found Karen Kelley contra Yau fictive gal consciousness pretty interesting and all the Pvt Ryan stuff,particularly the earlier responses and I believe Maxine Chernoff initiating the discussion. But by the time they were all on about which way they wanted to die, I admit that I too was thinking of which way I wanted them to die. There are quite a few of you out there with a much more philosophical bent than I am rather impressed in my pit of willful ignorance--go for it--looks good to ME anyway. I enjoyed reading with you -- I did think it was a perversely interesting mix -- I do know that you felt much better afterwards when it became apparent that I am not only an Evil Language Dupe but also Spicer Spawn, through a bastard yet noble lineage via the Spicer Diaspora. We sort of can't help that up here. Any way, thamx again & keep in touch. Dorothy Trujillo Lusk At 08:04 PM 8/7/98 -0700, you wrote: > Hi Dorothy -- thanks for this. I really feel bereft, after reading it >and the other tributes you mention, and I didn't even know the man! But >he must have been really special. > >You may remember we did a reading together last December in Seattle. I >really enjoyed talking with you afterwards much more than the reading! >Are you "on" this list now? What do you think? > >All best, > >Joe Safdie > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dorothy Trujillo >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Sent: 8/7/98 7:24 PM >Subject: Charles Watts > >Like Senor Silliman, I also knew what the notice from Peter was going to >be >on the list but I still reeled into a pretty shocky state. I spoke with >a >friend later who said,"No. We knew Charles was dying" but I did not know >that at all. Many years ago, Charles had meningitus and spent months in >hospital. I still remember the sick anxiety of impending loss. But >Charles >came through being that close to death and lived for a good long time >before >the cancer showed up. He'd had operations and various treatments, was >taking >a lot of really good supplements, was taking care of himself and was >continuing to work but being very mindful of his health, was not putting >in >excessive hours at Special Collections, as he'd a tendancy to do. I know >he'd been putting in long days with Ted Byrne on the Blaser papers but I >do >think he was pacing himself to not become overtaxed. I just always >believed >he would prevail, as ever. >I so appreciate Peter Quartermain's sensitivity in the initial posting >and >Bowering, Little and Silliman's tributes and reminiscences, particularly >mention of Charles's sense of humour which could be paradoxically droll >yet >giggly. I always valued of Charles that he truly seemed to enjoy my own >socially inappropriate daftness as a worthy lark rather than >pathologizing >me/'it' as many other real grown-ups were wont to do. & the giggle was >right >out there when years ago I shared with him plans to form a LOUD BAND >called >the Pound Scholars. Charles enjoyed his neighbourhood and his terrific >neighbours, including Lisa Robertson right upstairs. He had friends with >him >towards the end and at the end and I am very glad that he was with those >he >cared for and who cared for him so much. I last saw Charles at the >reading I >did with Bowering a few weeks back and Charles was as he will always be >for >me the Best Company. > >I am having so much sadness with all of us in Vancouver. We have so much >loss and so much to remember. We'll probably be putting something >together >along similar lines as the Kathy Acker Memorial Benefit through the >Kootenay >School of Writing, possibly at the Western Front sometime in September >but >its really early days on this. >Take care everyone, xxxx Dorothy Trujillo Lusk >dolly@intergate.bc.ca >765 Sawyer's Lane >Vancouver, BC V5Z 3Z8 >(604)708-0336 > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 22:19:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Query In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Folks: Does anyone have mailing addresses for Fred Muratori and Albert Mobilio? If so, can you backchannel them to me? Thanks, Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 04:51:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Private Ryan Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's definitely "Lock and load," But what is it that Tom Hanks mumbles about "earning it" in the scene on the bridge to Matt Damon? Ron Silliman ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 06:02:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Louis Cabri Subject: Re: bp studies MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Probably the first critical essays on the bp industry in canada appear in: _beyond the orchard: essays on the martyrology_. An h project. west coast line. 1997. -l ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:50:50 -0400 Reply-To: Charles Bernstein Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Russian festival of poetry (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 09:42:35 +0400 (MSD) From: zavialov@zavialov.spb.su A festival of contemporary Russian poetry will be held on Sept 18 to 20 in St.Petersburg and Sept. 25 to 27 in Moscow. The title of the festival is "Genius Loci". 24 poets from Russia (mostly Moscow and St.Petersburg) will be participating, among them such prominent literary figures as Dmitry Prigov, Lev Rubinstein, Arkadi Dragomoshchenko, Genrich Sapgir, Viktor Krivulin. There will be a number of young poets too. The festival is sponsored by the "New Literary Review' journal and partly sponsored by the Soros Foundation. All those who share an interest in modern poetry are very welcome to visit. Accomodation may be provided. Contact: email: zavialov@zavialov.spb.su tel: (812) 1351836 addr: Sergei Zavialov / Masha Zavialov 198329 Partizana Germana st. 21, apt 114, St. Petersburg Russia ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 07:58:49 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: your territory (& welcome to it) Content-Type: text/plain Mark, I agree w/ what you say about how one reads/ reacts to poets who have affected one's own work (though I'm not sure that such a reaction is any more or less valid than a supposedly "objective" critical or academic one, since the "influenced" poet brings a unique perspective to discussion of an author's work: & thus I think wearing multiple "hats" may be appropriate). However (& to get to yr main point), I don't think that I _was_ commenting on Henry's attitude toward Yeats, but on his apparently flippant dismissal of "Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer," as well as Ashbery. Such a summary dismissal as I took him to mean does nothing to further poetic dialogue, & does a disservice to those poets, obviously, as well as to those of us who take their work seriously. I only brought up Yeats as a way to make this point clear to Henry. In doing so I wasn't attempting to characterize Henry's attitude toward Yeats, or my own. Thanks for your comments. --Mark DuCharme Mark Weiss wrote: >Henry hardly needs my help to defend himself. Let me just say that while I >disagree with him about the Sermon on the Mount (they were platitudes even >then, Henry), you seem to have misconstrued his attitude towards Yeats. > >I've noticed in myself and others that artists tend to value, when we rank >other artrists, those whom we find useful to or related to our own work at >the moment of judgement. This is because, I think, we interact with their >work differently than either the lay audience or the teacher or critic. And >it's difficult to wear more than one of these hats at a time, which is why >I try to avoid teaching a great many poets whom others find essential. >I also (caveat to Henry) have found myself at times promoting with religous >ferocity poets I couldn't abide not long before. As my work evolves (or >devolves) towards or away from the work of another my tastes modify. > >At 12:31 PM 8/8/98 PDT, you wrote: >>Go to those hills, for all I care. I'm sorry to be blunt. If I >>believed, for example, that Yeats' poetry was of little worth (which I >>don't!), I wouldn't have the bad taste to go trumpeting that opinion >>about as if the judgements of other intelligent readers were as grains >>of sand compared to my monolithic literary intelligence (ego). Was it >>you in a post awhile back who suggested that the current avant garde >>literary scene was self-involved? Take the log out of your own eye-- as >>Christ would say. >> >>Your scholar, >> >>Mark DuCharme >> >> >>>Imagine a hydrahead: Ashberybloomvendler. >>> >>>Imagine a nation of academic journals dedicated to securing tenure for >>>professional poets who run contests and give awards and so on. >>> >>>Imagine a poetry counter-culture of shallow roots, a-historical hokum >>and >>>spiritual posturing. >>> >>>Then think about Grand Fenwick. >>> >>>There's more poetry in one saying of the Sermon on the Mount than in >>all >>>the writings of Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer, etc. put >>together. >>>Am I impinging on your territory? I will lift mine eyes unto the >>hills, >>>whence cometh my strength. >>> >>> >>>- Henry Gould >>> >> >> >>______________________________________________________ >>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com >> >> > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 11:42:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Mouseover at EBR Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Marjorie recently mentioned my "Mouseover: Essay in JavaScript" piece that appears in the current Electronic Book Review. I am posting this note to let you know that, as the piece presently appears, it is not fully readable. The editors are working on correcting this problem and I can let the list know when the problem is corrected. Hopefully, it won't be long. Thanks. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: proletarian _Glamour Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" My reading about early Russian Futurism leads me to ask: What is a proletarian poet? Is this someone with a proletarian backgroun? Is this someone who writes for (on behalf of politically) the proletariat? Is this someone who writes for the proletariat's enjoyment (for the working woman, for the college educated woman, for the academic, etc.?) tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:13:51 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment Content-Type: text/plain Wanted to say, since we've had some contentious exchanges, that I completely agree w/ what's said here, w/ the possible exception of David's comment about fragmentation-- just that I don't subscribe to the ideology of innovation, so the fact that we date fragmentation from Mallarme or the sonnet from the troubadors is not in & of itself relevant to whether it's alive NOW in a given practitioner's work. Could it be that semantics (or Henry's spirit of devil's advocacy) covers up broader areas of agreement? Just checking... --Mark DuCharme >David Baratier said: >----------------------------Original message---------------------------- >Charles made a comment about Henry's commentary fitting into certain >aspects of the bookmaking realm. Which mused me with similarities for a >few days. A fine press uses hand set type, sewn signatures, spine >covers, textured paper stocks, to create a book into a made thing with a >sense of typography and place, not a generated commodity. >[**] > >We are missing the book here. There are generative commodity writer's >out there on any side seen worthy to name. In the way that MFA programs >have given us plenty of "competent writers," the more "experimental" >based programs give us a different ilk with similar results. Except in >rare instances, the total book has disappeared through the falsity of >sentence fracture. Why should it matter if the sentence was written out >first then fractured or written for fracture, when the results are the >same tired notion sacked from "A roll of the dice will abolish chance?" >Late last century is hardly innovation. Where the looks of a piece are >the show not an aspect thereof like how revising history through the >guise of a new film prepares us in spirit for the next, not to denigrate >the last. > >It reminds me of a study presented before the American Marketing >Association a few years back. Truthful advertisements fail, but false >ones succeed in placing end use consumers in a buying mode. >[end of quote] > - - - - - - - -- - - - - >The creation of the unique art-book is related to the exchange between >poetry & visual art in concrete poetry, & the suggestion of bpNichol as >an antidote to the negative/dialectic haggling over the dizjunk issue. >From his book titles alone (all I've seen of it for now) >Nichol seems to be somebody with a sense of humor & a strong art-sense, >a spiritual independence, pure joie-de-vivre. Poetry needs to >draw sustenance from this kind of life & example. On the other hand I think >poetry has strange spiritual weapons (Blake, Hopkins, Dickinson, Shakespeare, >Milton, come to mind) which are in the word itself and transcend the >mode of presentation to some extent; poetry has its resources, sui generis, >just as visual art does, which I have been trying to point out in the >emphasis on clear speech etc. Perhaps the most radical aspect of pure >art is the sense of play which as Jordan pointed out ain't dialectical but >generous... calling down judgement on the utilitarian, mechanical, pre- >artistic or sub-artistic, the careerist, the arriviste, the noisy, the >ideological, the rational, the irrational, the graceless, purely on the >basis of its graceful presence amongst us... its fulfillment of its own >joyful prerogatives... that takes a certain gift & sweat... > >- Henry G. > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:16:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christian Roess Subject: Re: my territory Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 6 Aug 98 Henry Gould writes >Imagine a hydrahead: Ashberybloomvendler. >Imagine a nation of academic journals dedicated to securing tenure for >professional poets who run contests and give awards and so on. >Imagine a poetry counter-culture of shallow roots, a-historical hokum and >spiritual posturing. >Then think about Grand Fenwick. >There's more poetry in one saying of the Sermon on the Mount than in all >the writings of Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer, etc. put together. >Am I impinging on your territory? I will lift mine eyes unto the hills, >whence cometh my strength. > Henry Gould In 1804 , ' To justify the Ways of God to Men', The Author & Printer W Blake, writes: >The Stolen and Perverted Writings of Homer & Ovid: of Plato & >Cicero. which all Men ought to contemn: are set up by artifice >against the Sublime of the Bible. but when the New Age is at >leisure to Pronounce; all will be set right: & those Grand Works >of the more ancient & consciously & professedly Inspired Men, >will hold their proper rank, & the Daughters of Memory shall >become the Daughters of Inspiration. Shakspeare & Milton were >both curbd by the general malady & infection from the silly Greek >& Latin slaves of the Sword. > Rouze up O Young Men of the New Age! set your foreheads >against the ignorant Hirelings! For we have Hirelings in the >Camp, the Court, & the University: who would if they could, for >ever depress Mental & prolong Corporeal War. Painters! on you I >call! Sculptors! Architects! Suffer not the fash[i]onable Fools >to depress your powers by the prices they pretend to give for >contemptible works or the expensive advertizing boasts that they >make of such works; believe Christ & his Apostles that there is a >Class of Men whose whole delight is in Destroying. We do not >want either Greek or Roman Models if we are but just & true to >our own Imaginations, those Worlds of Eternity in which we shall >live for ever; in Jesus our Lord. (from 'preface' to MILTON) Henry, You call it "my territory". But is this anything so new? The 'new age' has arrived? Or didn't Blake recognize this 194 years ago? I haven't read much of Blake's -Milton- but Is this territory you are proclaiming as "my territory", also a territory which shares a boundary with the ignorant 'hirelings' who don't recognize the 'proper rank' of the 'writings of Pound, Olson, Duncan, Creeley, Palmer, etc.'? For example, are you espousing along with Blake that their writings seem like 'artifice' when compared to the 'sublime' "Sermon on the Mount"? So the so-called 'counter-traditionalists' along with the AshberybloomVendler School of Social Research are only making 'expensive advertizing boasts' and your territory is the only way to be 'just & true' to our own Imaginations ? Hey who's to say you are not on target Henry : yours being the 'Bow' to Blake's' Lyre'. I'm not wanting to come off here like a smart-ass : Are you being serious? I mean, this seems to be the way, both implicitly and explicitly, your statements are to be taken. At the same time, are you saying also that yours is 'just & true' way, which is what Blake is calling our Imaginations? Am I mis-reading your statements? The boastful side of me wants to proclaim: What are you getting at? What in the sam heck are you talking about? !! In some sense , what you are calling 'my territory' is an awfully silly boast. Don't you think? Chris ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 16:39:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: where in the world is Aldon Nielsen Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Before any number of listees send Bill any number of my past addresses, let me advise all and sundry that the best way to reach me is at my office: Department of English Loyola Marymount University 7900 Loyola Blvd. Los Angeles, CA 90045-8215 Let me also beg the forgiveness of any who may have sent material to any of my proliferating addresses in San Jose, Boulder and the prior Los Angeles -- I am in the process of collecting old mail from all over the place -- much of which I will actually answer -- It's been a mobile few years, but I'm now fairly well planted -- I'm only living in two cities now, and the job looks to remain stable for a time -- living on the faultline, aldon ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 13:00:45 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, I just had a rejection letter from a mainstream journal, and it was interesting because most of the criticisms were actually nice summaries of exactly what I'm after in poetry (e.g. "It sounds like something crucial, or even heartfelt, is trying to be expressed, but it gets lost in a sea of slippages" - I like that "Sea of Slippages" bit, it would make a good book title). Anyway, that old hobby horse "clarity" gets dragged out for another thrashing, and Ryan's comment about type being performative reminded me of just how inappropriate such optical metaphors (clear or unclear, opaque or transparent) are when it comes to describing language. > There are some poems that do great things on a photocopied page. I try to > remember with my work on Aporia that the type itself is performative..... Words are always obscure: they work by obscuring part of the page, and it's the pattern of obscuration that (per)forms the poem. If I wanted my words to be clear, I'd have to write in invisible ink. Tom. (another gem from the rejection letter was "just what is the reader supposed to make of the last stanza?" Heck, don't ask me, I'm just the author.) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 22:11:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Hannah Weiner Tribute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hannah Weiner: A 70th Birthday Memorial Tribute 4pm, Saturday, November 7, 1998 The Poetry Project St. Mark's Church 10th Street and Second Avenue, New York Charles Alexander Bruce Andrews Charles Bernstein Lee Ann Brown Abigail Child Maria Damon Tina Darragh Alan Davies Maurice Finegold Ernesto Grosman Bob Harrison Michael Heller Herny Hills Peter Inman Andrew Levy Jackson Mac Low Sharon Mattlin Bernadette Mayer Douglas Messerli Phill Niblock Nick Piombino Joan Retallack Barbara Rosenthal James Sherry Ron Silliman Ann Tardos Fiona Templeton Lewis Warsh Barrett Watten Organized by Charles Bernstein, Lee Ann Brown, Andrew Levy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:11:27 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: Hannah Weiner Tribute MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone have an address for Lee Ann Brown? or--if you "are" lee ann brown-- please e-maiul todd baron here. unless you "are" todd abron in which case e-mail j.l. borges.. unless of course you are.....rod serling or ted berrigan... TB (ReMap) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 00:09:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Me "on" list Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi Dot. agreement about Karen Kelley. you should if you haven't check out her Her Angel from singing horse press. it's kind of an erotic psychodrama. i mean if kevin davies were a freudian . . . " 1) Cereal lobsters do not taste very strong 2) My senses have been dulled about 90% by the blast" Bill < Subject: Re: ME "on" list Hey Joe! Nice to hear from you. Yeah, Charles WAS great. Just got a nice message from Bill Luoma remembering him. Thamx too,Bill & aloha. As for being "on" the list--it's an odd thing really, I'd not thought of doing postings and such--I only just figured out how to do them (apologies to any for any errors of form &c)--in this instance,however,because of our friend Charles, there somehow seemed to me a need for a response in a public testimony. Umm--well--what do I "think". Well I'm mostly on this list for access to information and the movement of information that is of some concern to the Kootenay School of Writing (ie:there is a posting that a writer we'd be interested in coming to x location & maybe we can get that person as well on the same trip) & personally, to see what other people are nattering on poetics. I found Karen Kelley contra Yau fictive gal consciousness pretty interesting and all the Pvt Ryan stuff,particularly the earlier responses and I believe Maxine Chernoff initiating the discussion. But by the time they were all on about which way they wanted to die, I admit that I too was thinking of which way I wanted them to die. There are quite a few of you out there with a much more philosophical bent than I am rather impressed in my pit of willful ignorance--go for it--looks good to ME anyway. I enjoyed reading with you -- I did think it was a perversely interesting mix -- I do know that you felt much better afterwards when it became apparent that I am not only an Evil Language Dupe but also Spicer Spawn, through a bastard yet noble lineage via the Spicer Diaspora. We sort of can't help that up here. Any way, thamx again & keep in touch. Dorothy Trujillo Lusk >> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 02:37:33 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I do not believe a specific sense of Mallarme ala benchmark was invoked, but rather a benchmark like I slept here, or at some future point, "when Mark lived in Colorado the such and such movement and yadda, yadda," A Timeline, I mean. Or locus solus. I'm curious Mark, what is "the ideology of innovation" you mention, I am taking it that one person would not be attributable solely for an innovation. My view is biased though by wanting an attributation to a group rather than an individual. Or do you mean a McGann type of indeterminacy (no such thing as authored text but rather textual evidence toward that ideal)? Or is it more how "make it new" threads through the past, a culmative effect? In semantics, if that which is meant or pointed to is unclear it may be called the reference (librarian tie in). Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 07:42:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: rsillima@IX.NETCOM.COM Subject: Doling out the prole Comments: To: poetics@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tom, Your missive (reprinted below for those whose short term memory was left behind in the 1960s) brings up the age-old (50 years at least) problem of class background, class stance and class position. It's possible for somebody to fall into any one of those categories -- Engels the factory owner, for example -- and imagine himself as part of some version of a classically defined proletariat. "We are the world," etc. While it's always useful to look at specifics (as in "X was the child of the professional-managerial class, but by becoming a poem became downwardly mobile"), it's never been that useful overall to get into pissin' contests over which conceptualization of the working class (or, as one Steve McCaffery poem I believe has it, the "wukking class") is being bandied about, and as we move into an ever later capitalism I notice the term being used with less and less clarity and specificity every day. Ron Silliman Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:40:01 -0500 From: trbell Subject: proletarian _Glamour My reading about early Russian Futurism leads me to ask: What is a proletarian poet? Is this someone with a proletarian backgroun? Is this someone who writes for (on behalf of politically) the proletariat? Is this someone who writes for the proletariat's enjoyment (for the working woman, for the college educated woman, for the academic, etc.?) tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:39:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: my territory In-Reply-To: Message of Sun, 9 Aug 1998 18:16:44 -0400 from responding to Lee Christian & Mark DuCharme - I called it my territory in response to Rachel Loden's sensible "territorializing" post. I don't know about Blake, but I do believe several strands of modernist poetry (Pound, Williams, Olson, & their heirs), while claiming a "historical" angle of vision, somehow leave out the whole impact of Judeo-Christianity on Western culture (except in negative terms). This is probably an endlessly debatable & somewhat dead-end issue so let's just leave it there. Secondly, & relatedly, I do happen to think that the poetic-narrative dramatic impact of the Bible - the sermon on the mount, say, placed in its dramatic context - that impact has been incredible. so powerful that individual artists sometimes need to shield their eyes from all the cultural predispositions & impressions in order to create their own work. This too is a huge issue for blab... & I will continue creating my "list-image" as reactionary religious fanatic egomaniac. But when I say that "one saying" from the Sermon on the Mount trumps all the poets I listed for poetic power, it's not pure exaggeration. Start reading the Bible say - Genesis to the "New Testament" - see if you don't agree. This is not evangelizing on my part. I'm talking about literary impact. Mark - why does making controversial - perhaps scandalous! - statements on the list mean I have a big ego? Maybe I do - but mainly I just like to mindfuck people with wild ideas, when I'm not into boring them to tears. - henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:45:03 -0400 Reply-To: fperrell@jlc.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F. W. Perrella" Subject: Web Del Sol - Quictions, In Posse Review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Two new items at Web Del Sol's What's New Page: http://webdelsol.com/solhome.htm The summer issue of North American Review is up, featuring short-short "quictions", among other things - have a look, enjoy, opine, (subscribe to the paper version!) A new fiction zine debuts, too: In Posse Review, edited by LuAnn Kaiser, seeks to publish the best fiction online, along with hybrid forms such as flash fiction and prose poetry. Essays and drama works are also sought. Browse, peruse, comment, question, visit again - thanks! Anne Perrella ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 11:04:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Coffey Subject: Welcome Message -Reply Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain this is mcoffey@pw.cahners.com i am having a problem with the reciept of poetcis list mail; it is this: in my in box, messages are identified as only "from" ub POETICS DISCUSSION; as a result, I don't at first glance know who on the list has posted the msg; and if they person does not sign the msg, then i never know who sent it; about 6 months ago, it was different; it would say in my inbox under From: Charles Bernstein, or Rsilliman, or whatever. i am told that this might be fixable at your end. can you? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 09:55:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: proletarian _Glamour MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit trbell wrote: > My reading about early Russian Futurism leads me to ask: > What is a proletarian poet? > Is this someone with a proletarian backgroun? > Is this someone who writes for (on behalf of politically) the > proletariat? > Is this someone who writes for the proletariat's enjoyment (for > the working woman, for the college educated woman, for the > academic, etc.?) > > tom bell A poet who has to work for a living? -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 16:39:43 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lawrence Upton." Subject: Programme for Sub Voicive Poetry, London, Autumn 98 Comments: To: Will Rowe , Valerie Soar , Peter Daniels , Karolina Tworkowska , Diego de Jesus , David Miller , Bob Perelman , ian vickers , british-poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The paper sub voicive poetry mailshot is prepared and will be sent out in a little while. But here for the wired in is the list for the coming season. Apologies for cross-posting Tue 22 9 98 Robert Sheppard / Keston Sutherland Tue 6 10 98 Karlien van der Beukel / John Wilkinson Tue 20 10 98 Rob Mackenzie / Anselm Hollo Tue 3 11 98 Ken Edwards / Andy Brown Tue 17 11 98 Will Rowe / + other(s) to be announced Tue 1 12 98 Quick Hits 98 - a range of poetry, a gathering of poets All readings take place upstairs the three cups sandland street london wc 1 at 8 pm still only L5 or L2.50 despite the need to curb spending ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 12:01:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Writer on Line Interview MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There is a two part interview that I did with Dana Luther on issues related to the recent collection I edited, Close Listening: Poetry and the Performed Word (Oxford University Press). Part one: http://novalearn.com/wol/dana8.htm Part two: http://novalearn.com/wol/archives/dana7.htm (these links are also in place at my home page at the EPC) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 10:23:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Subject: Re: Doling out the prole Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:42 AM 8/10/98 -0500, you wrote: >Tom, > >Your missive (reprinted below for those whose short term memory was left >behind in the 1960s) brings up the age-old (50 years at least) problem of >class background, class stance and class position. It's possible for >somebody to fall into any one of those categories -- Engels the factory >owner, for example -- and imagine himself as part of some version of a >classically defined proletariat. "We are the world," etc. > >While it's always useful to look at specifics (as in "X was the child of the >professional-managerial class, but by becoming a poem became downwardly >mobile"), it's never been that useful overall to get into pissin' contests >over which conceptualization of the working class (or, as one Steve >McCaffery poem I believe has it, the "wukking class") is being bandied >about, and as we move into an ever later capitalism I notice the term being >used with less and less clarity and specificity every day. > >Ron Silliman > >RE: Pissing contests. Yeah, it's really quite bad enough whilst a prole on the dole to be analysed by those not yet laid off as 'surplus labour' but I think 'potentially fascistic lumpen' really dose add insult to injury, specifically. Dorothy Trujillo Lusk > > >Date: Sun, 9 Aug 1998 10:40:01 -0500 >From: trbell >Subject: proletarian _Glamour > >My reading about early Russian Futurism leads me to ask: >What is a proletarian poet? >Is this someone with a proletarian backgroun? >Is this someone who writes for (on behalf of politically) the >proletariat? >Is this someone who writes for the proletariat's enjoyment (for >the working woman, for the college educated woman, for the >academic, etc.?) > >tom bell > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:08:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Baude/Grenier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 98-08-07 09:13:51 EDT, you write: << The article was written by Dawn Michelle Baude. >> ... who a week ago, read w/ Bob Grenier at Cody's in Berkeley. Anyone in the bay area catch it? I'm curious how Bob's thaaang played there. Last time I was saw him was abt 3 yrs ago in Sonoma -- steadfastly refusing to "read" any of the scrawl poems he was projecting w/ an overhead -- & Joanne Kyger heckling from the back, "C'mon Bob, read us a PO--EM" & Bob just grinning, inviting audience to decipher, which quite a few, Mr. Bromige, proceeded to do. --cs ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 14:35:38 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: EP, Spit Laureate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This just in from Slate magazine's "culturebox" (there's a term worth thinking about): -------------------------------------- Winning Entry, The Spiterature Contest: Seamus Patrick writes: I have never seen anything meaner (nor agreed with anything more) than Ezra Pound's "take" on A. E. Housman: Mr. Housman's Message O woe, woe, People are born and die, We also shall be dead pretty soon Therefore let us act as if we were dead Already. The bird sits on the hawthorn tree But he dies also, presently. Some lads get hung, and some get shot. Woeful is this human lot. Woe! woe, etcetera.... London is a woeful place, Shropshire is much pleasanter. Then let us smile a little space Upon fond nature's morbid grace, Oh, woe, woe, woe, etcetera.... Culturebox's note: Was Housman Pound's mentor? Culturebox doubts it, though she doesn't actually know. It doesn't matter. Patrick has correctly identified a masterpiece of spiterature: literature as a projectile of spit, composed in the spirit of spite. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 17:31:30 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: proletarian _Glamour Content-Type: text/plain Right on, sister Laura! --Mark DuCharme, via workplace computer Laura Wright wrote >trbell wrote: > >> My reading about early Russian Futurism leads me to ask: >> What is a proletarian poet? >> Is this someone with a proletarian backgroun? >> Is this someone who writes for (on behalf of politically) the >> proletariat? >> Is this someone who writes for the proletariat's enjoyment (for >> the working woman, for the college educated woman, for the >> academic, etc.?) >> >> tom bell > >A poet who has to work for a living? > >-- >Laura Wright >Library Assistant >Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute >2130 Arapahoe Ave >Boulder, CO 80302 >(303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * >"All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * >"It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 19:57:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Why I am not a Marxist MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I got my books from Spain today that I sent myself a few weeks ago. Here is a poem by Jorge Riechmann (this is not a hoax): "Je ne suis pas Marxiste" (Karl Marx) Until 1939 I was a Marxist. Then I became a Marxist. I was a Marxist until 1956. But the events of that year shook up many of my certainties and I became a Marxist. So things went on. Universal history beat me up once more on purpose and that same year I was transformed into a Marxist. In spite of everything I was a Marxist until 1989. For some ideologues the end of history, for me the year when I definitively succeded in becoming a Marxist. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:14:15 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: Oh henry bookmaking comment Content-Type: text/plain Dave, by "ideology of innovation" I was crudely trying to express something that I think Henry may be reacting against, a notion that I think was expressed by Pound (I don't have the book at hand), & went something like: there are poets who are inventors, & others who come along & refine the raw work derived from those "inventions," & still others who come along & are just derivative without refining or adding anything new. This is in ABC of Reading, & you'll have to excuse me if I don't remember the exact quote &/or can't express the fullness of Pound's thought just at this wee hour of the evening. I like your sense of "a benchmark like a slept here." In that sense, maybe, we should all be sleeping around. I also agree that I prefer to attribute anything to the group more than the individual. All I was trying to convey is that any notion of innovation which implies this sort of Poundian "progress" isn't something I subscribe to. Best, Mark DuCharme > >I do not believe a specific sense of Mallarme ala benchmark was invoked, >but rather a benchmark like I slept here, or at some future point, "when >Mark lived in Colorado the such and such movement and yadda, yadda," A >Timeline, I mean. Or locus solus. I'm curious Mark, what is "the >ideology of innovation" you mention, I am taking it that one person >would not be attributable solely for an innovation. My view is biased >though by wanting an attributation to a group rather than an individual. >Or do you mean a McGann type of indeterminacy (no such thing as authored >text but rather textual evidence toward that ideal)? Or is it more how >"make it new" threads through the past, a culmative effect? > >In semantics, if that which is meant or pointed to is unclear it may be >called the reference (librarian tie in). > >Be well > >David Baratier > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:27:05 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: my territory (anyone for list-Imagism?) Content-Type: text/plain Henry, I didn't mean to seem to characterize your ego. I wasn't trying to comment on _you_, but on your post-- the "my" of "my territory." As for the Bible, I'll admit I lack an appreciation of most of it, but not for lack of having read a good bit in my parochial schoolboy days. Perhaps I should read it again, but I do find Williams more engaging. Mark (cultivating a "secular humanist" egomaniac "list-image") DuCharme P.S.: keep the wild ideas coming >responding to Lee Christian & Mark DuCharme - I called it my territory in >response to Rachel Loden's sensible "territorializing" post. I don't know >about Blake, but I do believe several strands of modernist poetry (Pound, >Williams, Olson, & their heirs), while claiming a "historical" angle of >vision, somehow leave out the whole impact of Judeo-Christianity on >Western culture (except in negative terms). This is probably an endlessly >debatable & somewhat dead-end issue so let's just leave it there. >Secondly, & relatedly, I do happen to think that the poetic-narrative >dramatic impact of the Bible - the sermon on the mount, say, placed in its >dramatic context - that impact has been incredible. so powerful that >individual artists sometimes need to shield their eyes from all the >cultural predispositions & impressions in order to create their own work. >This too is a huge issue for blab... & I will continue creating my >"list-image" as reactionary religious fanatic egomaniac. But when I say >that "one saying" from the Sermon on the Mount trumps all the poets I listed >for poetic power, it's not pure exaggeration. Start reading the Bible >say - Genesis to the "New Testament" - see if you don't agree. This is >not evangelizing on my part. I'm talking about literary impact. > >Mark - why does making controversial - perhaps scandalous! - statements on the >list mean I have a big ego? Maybe I do - but mainly I just like to >mindfuck people with wild ideas, when I'm not into boring them to tears. > >- henry Gould > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:27:39 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: my territory (anyone for list-Imagism?) Content-Type: text/plain Henry, I didn't mean to seem to characterize your ego. I wasn't trying to comment on _you_, but on your post-- the "my" of "my territory." As for the Bible, I'll admit I lack an appreciation of most of it, but not for lack of having read a good bit in my parochial schoolboy days. Perhaps I should read it again, but I do find Williams more engaging. Mark (cultivating a "secular humanist" egomaniac "list-image") DuCharme P.S.: keep the wild ideas coming >responding to Lee Christian & Mark DuCharme - I called it my territory in >response to Rachel Loden's sensible "territorializing" post. I don't know >about Blake, but I do believe several strands of modernist poetry (Pound, >Williams, Olson, & their heirs), while claiming a "historical" angle of >vision, somehow leave out the whole impact of Judeo-Christianity on >Western culture (except in negative terms). This is probably an endlessly >debatable & somewhat dead-end issue so let's just leave it there. >Secondly, & relatedly, I do happen to think that the poetic-narrative >dramatic impact of the Bible - the sermon on the mount, say, placed in its >dramatic context - that impact has been incredible. so powerful that >individual artists sometimes need to shield their eyes from all the >cultural predispositions & impressions in order to create their own work. >This too is a huge issue for blab... & I will continue creating my >"list-image" as reactionary religious fanatic egomaniac. But when I say >that "one saying" from the Sermon on the Mount trumps all the poets I listed >for poetic power, it's not pure exaggeration. Start reading the Bible >say - Genesis to the "New Testament" - see if you don't agree. This is >not evangelizing on my part. I'm talking about literary impact. > >Mark - why does making controversial - perhaps scandalous! - statements on the >list mean I have a big ego? Maybe I do - but mainly I just like to >mindf..k people with wild ideas, when I'm not into boring them to tears. > >- henry Gould > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 03:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - I am stale; there is nothing to ail this body that has not done its damage much as this body has done homage to language, pillage which is stale as in before, when you have read it whispered in my ear; then I'd write it, no need to read it further, you'd been bit by what you steer to me; then through me, back again, that's what is stale, theor- y, me, and you, binding without fail what would unglue me, become stale, fear it winding that trail, cuing the near- ly stale or train of mind, cycle and rail, what could entail a natural kind. m y life o o z i n g 0000000 0a0a 2069 6970 7373 6120 6c6c 6f20 6576 0000010 2072 6f79 7275 7020 6e61 6974 7365 6a20 0000020 6e65 696e 6566 2072 6f79 2075 7473 6675 0000030 2066 6874 6d65 6920 206e 796d 6d20 756f 0000040 6874 670a 6761 6d20 2065 6977 6874 6e20 0000050 6b69 6b75 276f 2073 6577 2074 6167 7472 0000060 7265 2073 6c73 626f 6562 2072 6c73 626f 0000070 6562 2072 6f6d 7475 2068 7566 6c6c 6f20 0000080 0a66 756a 756c 7327 6d20 6e65 6573 2073 0000090 7264 7069 6970 676e 6420 776f 206e 796d 00000a0 7320 616f 696b 676e 6320 6568 7473 6920 00000b0 6c20 766f 2065 7573 6b63 6e69 2067 6977 00000c0 6874 6d0a 2079 6f6d 7475 2068 7566 6c6c 00000d0 6f20 2066 6c61 6e61 6a2d 6c75 2d75 656a 00000e0 6e6e 6669 7265 6e2d 6b69 6b75 0a6f 00000ee in these lost moments in my dark oozings in my life oozing dark moments away now to defend myself additions and extra digits clawing against a final stroke of brush-wielding nikuko or pen-wielding jennifer, say pencil and julu, keyboard and alan say say say say say __________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 07:02:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: EP, Spit Laureate Comments: To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU In-Reply-To: <35CF053B.AE7@LFC.EDU> from "Robert Archambeau" at Aug 10, 98 02:35:38 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For a brilliantly mean dismissal of a contemporary I've always liked Nietzsche's dismissal of Carlyle as "The philosophical equivalent of dyspepsia." -m. According to Robert Archambeau: > > This just in from Slate magazine's "culturebox" (there's a term worth > thinking about): > > -------------------------------------- > Winning Entry, The Spiterature Contest: > > Seamus Patrick writes: > > I have never seen anything meaner (nor agreed with > anything more) than Ezra Pound's "take" on A. E. > Housman: > > Mr. Housman's Message > > O woe, woe, > People are born and die, > We also shall be dead pretty soon > Therefore let us act as if we were dead > Already. > > The bird sits on the hawthorn tree > But he dies also, presently. > Some lads get hung, and some get shot. > Woeful is this human lot. > Woe! woe, etcetera.... > > London is a woeful place, > Shropshire is much pleasanter. > Then let us smile a little space > Upon fond nature's morbid grace, > Oh, woe, woe, woe, etcetera.... > > Culturebox's note: Was Housman Pound's mentor? Culturebox doubts it, > though she doesn't actually know. It doesn't matter. Patrick has > correctly identified a masterpiece of spiterature: literature as a > projectile of spit, composed in the spirit of spite. > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:31:19 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: Washington DC area reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" HOT AUGUST NIGHT Saturday, August 15 Backyard Reading at 7 p.m.: DOUGLAS ROTHSCHILD and DANIEL BOUCHARD @ the house of Carol Mirakove in Arlington, Virginia For info., back-channel Carol or Dan-- Carol Mirakove Daniel Bouchard <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 08:14:14 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: Re: my territory (anyone for list-Imagism?) In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:27:05 PDT from On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 22:27:05 PDT Mark DuCharme said: >Henry, > >As for the Bible, I'll admit I lack an appreciation of most of it, but >not for lack of having read a good bit in my parochial schoolboy days. >Perhaps I should read it again, but I do find Williams more engaging. Mushing & chatting about poetry & religion in a shallow way is a desecration of both. Or at least an over-simplification. There are cultural dimensions of experience irreducible to uninformed chit-chat. So my off-the-cuff remarks are like a swine casting himself before pearls. But I have found the essays & work of Welsh poet David Jones provide a perspective on some of the issues that fascinated Pound & the whole American experimental tradition - a very different perspective which feels less alien to me. See his essays on Welsh culture & modern technocracy, art in relation to war, art & sacrament. His concepts of religion as sign-making, of man as sign-making animal, of the relations between the useful & the "extra-utile", the technical & the beautiful-in-itself, the marginalisation of all art (the extra-utile) in modern times, art as form reflecting wholeness, and so on. Jones could be thought of as a sort of relic in a way - of Welsh culture as the remnant of "native" life analogous to Native American culture in America - and a person caught up in watching the techno-globalization-commercialisation of all life as a direct threat to Welsh culture & language. But he is also an english-native-speaker brought up in London, a representative of "European" traditional (Christian) culture, and a veteran of WW I whose war experience shaped all his writings. His essays provide some sharp critical insight on some of the marginal-experimental questions which occupy this list, because he reflects on poetry from a perspective on art & mankind in general which stretches way back - but on a very different trail than say Olson or Duncan. But different from Eliot's or Yeats's pomposities as well. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 10:42:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: my territory (anyone for list-Imagism?) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Isn't "mushing and chatting about poetry and religion in a shallow way" a description of the last few decades of Robert Bly's career? (One assumes not MUSHing in caps.) Meeow, Neko-chan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 09:05:23 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Subtext readings (Seattle) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi all, Here are the Subtext readings scheduled for summer into fall 1998. All readings start at 7:30 pm in the back room of the Speakeasy Cafe, 2304 2nd Ave in Seattle's restaurant and condo-loaded Belltown district. August 20 Lisa Jarnot/Roberta Olson September 17 Meredith Quartermain/Robert Mittenthal October 15 Rob Manery/Brian Carpenter November 19 Will Alexander/Laynie Browne Also of note at Bumbershoot (a local "festival" over Labor Day weekend) a reading by Robin Blaser, Ed Friedman, Joel Lipman, Dan Raphael, Belle Randall, Norman Weinstein late on Monday afternoon. Bests, Herb Herb Levy herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 11:43:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Does anyone out there happen to know of any texts that address Poe's influence on Ginsberg? (helping a friend do some research) Backchannel PLEASE Laura W. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 12:51:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Carolyn Guertin Subject: Electronic Book Review: new issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If not sure if this has been announced yet or not, but Electronic Book Review 7 image + narrative: part two is now online... Including work by Janet Murray, J. Hillis Miller, Loss Peque=F1o Glazier, Raymond Federman, Stephanie Strickland, etc., etc. ___________________________________________________ Carolyn Guertin, Department of English, University of Alberta E-Mail: cguertin@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca; Tel/FAX: 403-432-2735 Website: See bees: ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 14:51:15 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: DLB on Perelman, Watten, Cage etc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The latest volume of the Dictionary of Literary Biography just clunked through my mail slot, and it looks like the most experiment-friendly volume ever. Okay, I wrote something for it, and okay, "the most experiment-friendly DLB" may sound like the rough equivalent of "the world's tallest pygmie," but check out some of the poets covered... Full contents consists of essays on: Michael Anania by Robert Archambeau Rae Armantrout by Ann Vickery David Bromige by Charla Howard John Cage by Rod Smith Anne Carson by Steven Marks Clark Coolidge by Bruce Campbell Cid Corman by William Walsh James Dickey by Ronald Baughman Robert Duncan by George F. Butterick & Robert J. Bertholf Larry Eigner by Benjamin Friedlander Carolyn Forche by Constance Coiner Alice Fulton by Sergei Lobanov-Rostovsky Allen Grossman by Gary Roberts Barbara Guest by Sara Lundquist Carla Harryman by Chris Stroffolino Ann Lauterbach by James McCorkle Jackson Mac Low by Bruce Campbell Eileen Myles by Patrick F. Durgin Frank O'Hara by George F. Butterick & Robert J. Bertholf Mary Oliver by Susan Marie Powers Charles Olson by George F. Butterick & Robert J. Bertholf Joel Oppenheimer by George F. Butterick & Robert J. Bertholf Bob Perelman by Steve Evans Stanley Plumly by Steve Evans Carl Rakosi by Elizabeth Losh Jerome Rothenberg by Jed Rasula Leslie Scalapino by Elizabeth A. Frost Jack Spicer by Edward Halsey Foster John Taggart by Mark Scroggins Mary TallMountain by Gabrielle Welford Barrett Watten by Jacques Debrot Harriet Zinnes by Eric & Melissa Williamson I mean, Yee-Hah! I'm not leaving my office for a week with all this to go through. What say we all get together and carry the editor, Joseph Conte, through the streets of Buffalo while singing his praises? (The best part of all this is that most big libraries get the DLB, so you should be able to get your hands on this). Bibliographic info Dictionary of Literary Biography vol. 193, American Poets Since World War Two (sixth series). Detroit: Gale Research, 1998. --- Robert Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:04:22 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: PS to DLB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Almost forgot to mention -- p. 23 includes rare photo of David Bromige at 2 years of age. Awwwww.... Bob ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 16:46:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ACGOLD01@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Black Sparrow address Does anyone have a snail-mail address for John Martin at / and Black Sparrow? I need to write him for a reprint permission. Thanks. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:02:07 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: snorting up the Pound / Williams line MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Innovators. Pound missed the drunken boat there. The exclamation of Inventio as having a placement above the other four parts of oratory hits me like one saying Pindar's anti strophes are the most important element of a triad, or spacial cogency into irrationality in Demuth's #5 was the primary poignancy of preferring cheese over the milk and macaroni after cooking. I advocate a current mimeticism into mediocrity. Name who we wish. Excogitaire. For those of us who think there might not be. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 22:23:42 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: DLB info MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since I've had quite a few queries backchannel about how to get the new and miraculous DLB volume, here's some information about getting the book: The publisher's address is: Gale Research 835 Penobscot Building Detroit, MI 48226 USA The book is: Conte, Joseph, editor. Dictionary of Literary Biography vol. 193, American Poets Since World War Two (sixth series). Detroit: Gale Research, 1998. ISBN is 0-7876-1848-9. I don't have price info, and the book, still white-hot from the press, isn't listed on Amazon.com yet. Note that this is the SIXTH SERIES -- Amazon has earlier volumes, also edited by Conte, but they are different books. Here's the bad news: this is a 12 by 8 inch, 450 page hardcover sold mostly to libraries, so it costs a bundle. I don't have a figure, but the earlier series ran around $100 or $150. That's a lot of cash, but if you can swing it the book is worth it. An event, a landmark, a big hoo-hah -- words fail me. But if the money is a problem, almost all university libraries will get copies, and the big public libraries tend to take the DLB books, too. Thanks to all for their interest, Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:23:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: some software for you Comments: To: Scratch Pad MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pardon the non-poetical post please, if such there be, o yes there be, but I've just finished a freeware game perhaps for poets who like puzzles called CoLoRaTiOn at http://www.islandnet.com/~jandrews/MORPHTEA which, though not particularly poetical in any recognizable sense, is, I think, original in concept and design. It can be played by young children, but some of the mathematical issues it raises are unresolved and can be pondered indefinitely. Regards, Jim Andrews ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 04:16:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: in the key of bp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A Call for "Wild Things" > > In conjunction with "On the H Orizon: bpNichol After Ten" > An event sponsored by West Coast Line > Emily Carr Institute of Art and Design > Granville Island, Vancouver BC > September 25-26, 1998 For more information contact: > Glen Lowry, "Wild Things" Co-ordinator email: lowry@sfu.ca > > For information on "On the H Orizon" contact: > Jacqueline Larson, Managing Editor, West Coast Line, email: > jlarson@sfu.ca > phone: 604 - 291-4287 > > >As a tribute to bpNichol's enormous contribution to small press >publishing, "On the H Orizon: bpNichol After Ten" is putting a call out >for publishers and writers to produce what we're calling "Wild Things" >(after the title of bp's work in bp, published by Coach House in 1967). > >In the spirit of bp's work with small presses & small press networks, >we're inviting submissions of chapbooks or ephemeral publications, which >we can distribute as part of the event. > > SOME GUIDELINES: > > *All kinds and forms of text are welcome. > > *Publishers: choose a writer whose work extends a bp poetics; writers: > produce something of your own in tribute to bp. > > *Print run: 25 copies, lettered A-Z (excluding H). > > *Optional: designate the text somewhere as "An H Project." > > *West Coast Line will sell them at the conference at $5 each (50% to the > publisher, 50% for the conference costs). All unsold copies will be > returned. > > DEADLINES: Please contact Glen Lowry with intent to contribute ASAP. In > order to qualify for inclusion, Wild Things must be received by > September 18th. > > For more information contact: > Glen Lowry, "Wild Things" Co-ordinator email: lowry@sfu.ca > > For information on "On the H Orizon" contact: > Jacqueline Larson, Managing Editor, West Coast Line, email: > jlarson@sfu.ca > phone: 604 - 291-4287 > > "Wild Things" is designated by West Coast Line as "An H Project" in > honour of bpNichol > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:36:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: snorting up the Pound / Williams line Comments: To: baratier@megsinet.net In-Reply-To: <35D0CD3B.8792A8C6@megsinet.net> from "David Baratier" at Aug 11, 98 11:02:07 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It's really becoming a pet peeve of mine, this equation of Pound & innovation for the purpose of dismissing both: could there be a more flammable straw man? Of course not, hence his invocation tends to be followed by grousing and innuendo rather than a real, pragmatic discussion of the relative merits of innvative models of artistic production. You can't begin, first of all, by assuming that "the parts of oratory" is a scheme we need to accept out of hand: Pound's familiarity with such schemes and his paradoxical reverence for them is precisely what makes him such an easy target: he's the son who should know better. But while "inventio" is schematized easily enough, a discussion of innovation or "experiment" might well move outside those preset boundaries: that is, experiment can be taken as a more pervasive and far-reaching method, as it is, for instance, in Ralph Ellison's discussions of "democratic vernacular speech." It's ironic that David B. would lean on "the parts of oratory" without really discussing rhetoric as itself persuasive: the act of separating oratory into parts is itself a rhetorical act, it implies a certain attitude toward both language and experience, one which values either the comfort provided or the power gained by preset categories. In contrast, there are arguments like John Dewey's that "A Philosophy animated, be it consciously or unconsciously, by the strivings of men to achieve democracy will construe liberty as meaning a universe in which there is real uncertainty and contingency, a world which is not all in, and never will be, a world which in some way is incomplete and in the making, and in these respects may be made this way or that according as men jusdge, prize, love and labor...a genuine field of novelty of real and unpredictable increments of existence, a field for experimentation and invention" (Characters & Events 2:851). Now, Dewey spends 350 pgs in *Art as Experience* describing how this insistence on "experimentation and invention" applies to language. Let's have a discussion about the merits of *that*, or of Burke's *Language as Symbolic Action* (also a masterful argument for innovative writing) or, for that matter, of Bernstein's *A Poetics* - all serious defenses of experimental writing too complex and distinct to simply equate. Which is to say, pick on someone your own size, & leave Pound's carcass alone - it's picked clean. -m. According to David Baratier: > > Innovators. Pound missed the drunken boat there. The exclamation of > Inventio as having a placement above the other four parts of oratory > hits me like one saying Pindar's anti strophes are the most important > element of a triad, or spacial cogency into irrationality in Demuth's #5 > was the primary poignancy of preferring cheese over the milk and > macaroni after cooking. I advocate a current mimeticism into mediocrity. > Name who we wish. Excogitaire. For those of us who think there might not > be. > > Be well > > David Baratier > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:57:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: "Tool a Magazine" Party Friday 8/14 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit *EVERYONE IS WELCOME!!!* "Tool a Magazine" *I would like to invite all of you in the NYcity area to a party* "Tool a Magazine" is celebrating our first issue with a party at: *Teachers and Writers Collaborative in Manhattan, 5 Union Square West, 5th Floor *Friday August 14th at 6pm* Reading from their work will be: *Pierre Joris* *Jordan Davis* *Anselm Berrigan* (its his birthday!!!!) *Eleni Sikelianos* plus "surprise guests.." There will be food, drinks, and a Pinata at 9pm!!! ...Let the candy rain down..... Everyone is welcome Fisrt Ten Guests get a great Pez Dispenser!!!!! Hope to see you all there!!!!!! The magazine will be available for purchase... erik sweet lori quillen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:04:12 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: Cave the teacher (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:40:47 +0000 From: peggy To: goodson@geography.leeds.ac.uk Subject: Cave the teacher Hallo ! while peeling potatos i was listening to the radio. It was an interview with Christian Hinze from the Vienna Poetry School announcing a course called "How to write a lovesong" from 15th till 28th of september. The course will lead Nick Cave. 12 people are allowed to take part. Cave himself will select these peole out of applications they have to send. There are strict rules for application. Christian Hinze said the only song by Nick Cave he knew was the one everybody kows and Blixa Bargeld (who has lead a course before) invited him to a Bad Seed concert last year in Vienna. And after the concert Hinze asked Cave whether he would like to lead a course at the school, yeah and it seemed like he has agreed..... who had ever thought he would... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:48:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: Cave the teacher (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Would Chris Stroffolino be so kind as to back-channel me (about Laura Riding). Thanks, Susan S. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 14:03:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: PS to DLB Comments: To: Robert Archambeau In-Reply-To: <35D05D76.4D44@LFC.EDU> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Yes, Robert, and we must not forget the picture of David at the piano (i didn't know you played piano david) and of Rae A. at the horse.... Haven't gotten around to reading much of it yet, but have read Steve Evans' piece, and I think it does a great service to Perelman by NOT simply mentioning P's "canonical" poems, but also his earlier work.... and also for including such phrases as-- "Published in a mid-sized, NEA-supported run of six hundred..." etc.... well, more on this DLB thing later.....chris On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Robert Archambeau wrote: > Almost forgot to mention -- p. 23 includes rare photo of David Bromige > at 2 years of age. Awwwww.... > > Bob > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 11:22:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Postmodern Piracy Festival /Call for Participants (fwd) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980619150045.00e7e8b0@pop.acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dan- this probably wouldn't help your vita, but it sounds quite fun. it seems that anything with the word "pirates" in the title is hip academically. perhaps poe and piracy is a doable topic. robert On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Poetics List wrote: > forwarded from Doug Rice at Rice@Salem.kent.edu > > > NOBODADDIES: An Independent Press of > Pirated Textual and Sexual Identities > Presents: > A Festival of Postmodern Piracy > April 14-16, 1999 > Kent State University-Salem (Ohio) > Kent State University-Salem (Ohio) > > You are invited to submit theoretical and critical abstracts (100-500 > words) addressing any aspect or interpretation of the festival's theme > Piracy of Words, Bodies, Subjectivities, Cultures, Identities, or > Representations. Panel proposals are also encouraged and should include the > panel's title, participant's names, and abstracts. All approaches in the > humanities (particularly literary, cinematic, musical, or philosophical) > are welcomed. Possible topics include, but are not limited to: > > * History and Practice of Plagiarism, Appropriation, or Piracy * > Theoretical approaches to Plagiarism, Appropriation, or Piracy * > Performances of Plagiarism, Appropriation, or Piracy * Explorations of > Contemporary Rewriting of Older Tales * Aesthetic Outlaws, Migrant Tongues > * Schizo-Flesh or Infected Texts * Gender Blurring/Blending/Cutting/Erasing > * Nomadic Skinshows * Viral Languages, Theories, Images, Bodies * > Transgender Issues of Bodies and Languages * The Politics and Poetics of > Transgression * Special Panels and Sessions on the works of Kathy Acker, > William S. Burroughs, Ray Federman, Gilles Deleuze, David Cronenberg. * A > Colloquium on the NEA and Censorship. > > We are interested in a variety of approaches, including works that confuse > boundaries of genre, discourse, and discipline; works that analyze primary > texts; creative works that perform any of these issues. Selected work will > be published in a festschrift celebrating the festival. > > Please Address submissions to: Doug Rice Kent State University-Salem 2491 > State Route 45 South Salem OH 44460 For further information, please contact > Doug Rice at Rice@Salem.kent.edu > Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 12:02:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Postmodern Piracy Festival /Call for Participants (fwd) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII pardon my backchannel, though perhaps this managed to remind people about this interesting conference(?) robert Robert Corbett "you are there beyond/ tracings flesh can rcor@u.washington.edu take,/ and farther away surrounding and University of Washington informing the systems" - A.R. Ammons ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:08:10 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: snorting up the Pound / Williams line In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:36:05 -0400 from On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:36:05 -0400 Michael Magee said: > >Now, Dewey spends 350 pgs in *Art as Experience* describing how this >insistence on "experimentation and invention" applies to language. Let's >have a discussion about the merits of *that*, or of Burke's *Language as >Symbolic Action* (also a masterful argument for innovative writing) or, >for that matter, of Bernstein's *A Poetics* - all serious defenses of >experimental writing too complex and distinct to simply equate. Which is >to say, pick on someone your own size, & leave Pound's carcass alone - >it's picked clean. -m. I doubt if anybody's against experiment & innovation per se. But since you seem to think a serious pragmatic discussion requires citation - then how would one or more of the above authorities, do you think, respond to the following positions of anglo-welsh artist-poet David Jones, which he asserts in various places: 1. All art is fundamentally abstract, since it basically involves "making a shape"; and the (Aquinas-Joycean) "radiance of form" is the substance of the work itself. So "abstract art" is an assertion of this basic aspect in isolation to some degree. Jones does NOT condemn it or even criticize it on these grounds; but he suggests that any foregrounding of any particular "virtue", while it may have immediate benefits, can lead to various kinds of dessication. 2. All art is a sign-making activity which points toward something lost or distant or "other"; in this sense it is "extra-utile", un-useful, impractical; it is the opposite of what Jones (writing during WW II) called materialism, pure force, the material "thing" without this "significance". Not that he was a "spiritualist" or anti-materialist; he was an "incarnational" artist, whose exemplar was Joyce, and he related giving somebody flowers as a token of love and the Eucharistic Mass as equally "significant". Poetry & art are essentially anamnesis - re-calling - something absent, via signs. 3. Well-made art aspires to re-member & contain EVERYTHING; thus comedy will touch on tragedy & vice versa; a painting of a chair will recall thrones & kingdoms, etc. Art aspires to all-inclusive wholeness: this is "objective" form. For Jones the material of art had a "sacramental" unity; he was a old culture bard,"conservative", who wrote long poems clearly influenced by Pound's techniques as well as Joyce, the Bible, Blake, Smart, folk tales, history, geology, etc. This devotional mentality set him against a purely "material" approach to art; the bardic role of memory (anamnesis) put limits on invention for its own sake, which I think he would relate to pure materialism or in-significance. At the same time he followed Jacques Maritain in recognizing that art perfects itself within its own sphere (practice, "doing") and this involves technical, formal "rightness". But he distinguished between the technical (or purely instrumental) and the artistic (the making of "extra-utile" signs). It's the old yin/yang, active/contemplative, dominate/cooperate, nominalist/realist thang... I don't think anybody's been "dismissing" experiment. I for one have been questioning some of the American shibboleths of who or what or in what spirit experiment is now happening (or have been trying to anyway). - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:01:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: poetic incest or snorting Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Black Whole or 101 Ways to Conquer Chaos chaotic child's play curbed hammock backyard slowswinging sarcastically soar reading too much into it reading too homesafe oxenfree by the book and candle flares rocket's red glare snarled clay owned if uttered platitudes marshmallow mayhem phallicle starship or oracle heeded or Tanka 1. Chaotic child's play curbed in 101 ways. In a slowswinging soar in blue backyard hammock sarcastically over. Tanka 2. Reading too much reading into it Jack's homesafe. Do it by the book until candles flare, rockets glare red, and does startle, flee. Tanka 3. Snarled clay, phallic swagger, owned if uttered by pious platitudes, marshmallow pillows, discursive rules and regs., objects. Not I. tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:34:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. The difference that makes meaning may or may not be oppositional, dialectic. There is no context for this remark. The difference that makes meaning what? Assume that some part of language is being talked about, maybe some small part. Is a phonemic difference meant, and if so, is a sort of "color-wheel" of english (for example) phonemes implied? If so, how does this connect to encryption and graphological systems of value (e.g. gematria, kaballah)? Do systems which attribute different qualities to the letters pay their pathos dues? If not a phonemic difference, then what. Morphemes? The question, and then the apap. The apparently relevant found text skews the rhetorical question, it starts to look like allegory. The clause then because. Then becomes the unit of meaning which must differ. The late 19th early 20th century terrain of statements, hesitations and modifications. But! subtle observations distributed among several clauses become attenuated, less robust. Associationism and stream-of-consciousness present a cluster of meanings, literature is writing again! Progress! (Or, epistomology as SWAT team). The party isn't over, you just stopped getting invited, at least until things get retro enough for you to be seen as a genial precursor of the next odd use for words. Is this change in the making of meaning from the clausal genteel to free clusterfuck ... is it a DIALECTIC change? Always already? Never not yet? Small boat appraisal guide ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:50:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Is there sort of a techno-poetics specific to American poetry of which Pound is the founder, an emphasis on the invention of new literary techniques? While there are avant-gardes everywhere I don't find this same obsession with techne per se in other modern traditions, to the same extent at least. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is what Bly was trying to say back in the 50s and 60s. (not that I agree with HIM) Jones, as described by H. Gould, seems vaguely Heideggerian (if that is not a redundancy). The Heideggerian approach would seem to distrust technique for at least two reasons--because technique seems somehow inessential to what poetry is really about, and because technique is related to technology, seeing the world as somehow raw material waiting for us to instrumentalize it. Am I on the right track here or am I missing the point? Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:58:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: (Fwd) Rejected posting to POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm forwarding this from Chris Alexander >From: "Christopher W. Alexander" (by way of Charles Alexander ) >Subject: Davidson query >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > >off the list but as you can see I'm still breathing >(typing) and haven't left yet. can one of you nice >listees give a former listee Michael Davidson's >snail-mail address? > > thanks! chris > >pls backchannel me at . > >.. > >Christopher W. Alexander etc. / nominative press collective > >*new email: nonce@iname.com >snail-mail: P.O. Box 522402 / Salt Lake City UT 84152-2402 >*snail-mail after 16 August: 19 Hodge St. #9 / Buffalo NY 14222 >press/zine site: http://choengmon.lib.utah.edu/~calexand/nonce/ > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:39:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Bombay Gin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The 1998 issue of Bombay Gin - the annual publication of The Jack Kerouac School at Naropa - is now available. It features a beautiful color cover by Kenneth Patchen, along with a 30 page excerpt from _In Quest of Candlelighters_. Work by all the usual suspects - Waldman, Schelling, Hawkins, Hollo, Collom, Abbott, Taylor, Bye - and poems by, among many others, Diana Rickard, Jack Greene, Jeni Olin, Cedar Sigo, Clayton Eshleman, Lisa Jarnot, Ha Jin, Alma Luz Villanueva, and yours truly. Price is $10.00. Order by calling (303) 546 - 3540 or 800/772-6951. Thanks, Patrick Pritchett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 19:36:56 -0400 Reply-To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donald Wellman Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'll chirp in here. For both Pound and Jones, I believe 'techne' is a form of weaving over the surface of something soul-like and essentailly spiritual, a catching of those shadows: And the small stars now fall from the olive branch, Forked shadow falls dark on the terrace More black than the floating martin (EP, Canto XLVII) For Williams, 'techne' is more mahinic, the poem being a machine made of words: 'techne' becomes 'method'. And this seems a pretty clear line through Creeley and Olson to Bernstein. I think the notion of poetry or language as an instrumental extension of the senses useful for making discoveries otherwise not-detectable seems to me a very American, very pragmatic take on how or why one writes. So as far as this history goes, Pound is on Henry's side; Williams etc aligns with Dewey etc. Don Wellman ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 04:15:42 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger Comments: To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit william's "machine" was a modernist technic of responding to a query regarding "WHAT is poetry." He meant it and didn't mean it--for williams-- (see KORA) the machine always needed to be refuled and reworked and discarded--plus he very much thot of the AMERICAN machine-- a device. A clear line to Charles B? Nothing is a clear line--not always is writing a "instrumental extension of the senses"--that's sd obviously--ironically I hope--as the sense are not always a part of writing. Haven't we got past that yet? Did Duchamp inform Williams? Yes-- Duchamp's "senses" include a love of the machine-- not of a singular (coleridge) self composed. Todd B (Remap) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:25:44 -0400 Reply-To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donald Wellman Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger Comments: To: toddbaron@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit toddbaron wrote: > william's "machine" > was a modernist technic of > responding to a query regarding "WHAT > is poetry." He meant it > and didn't mean it--for williams-- > (see KORA) the machine always needed to > be refuled and reworked and discarded--plus > he very much thot of the AMERICAN machine-- > a device. Yes " a device" this is very much what I meant in my hurry to conflate reductions. The method of using language as a device for discovery (many orders of discovery) seems very American. I believe Bernstein has spoken more than once on meaning and method in ways that reflect this notion of a "device." It is one of the clearer lines among those that one might attempt to trace. Watten too has an essay on on Williams's machine that seems to align Williams with his own practice. Now there are other methods--surrealism of course that I don't think will be confused with 'techne". I stand by my aligning of Pound and Jones with respect to techne and in differentiation from the more mechinic and technical use of language as device that seems distinctive of American Experimental poetry--pointing out what I think of as a major mis-alignment of Henry's pawns. Don ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 22:18:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Human Interest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- *** Sony shutters camera that sees through clothes Electronics giant Sony Corp. said Wednesday it had halted shipments of some video cameras after finding they could be used for filming more of their subjects than meets the eye. Some versions of the Handycam have infrared technology which lets users shoot at night or in darkness in a "night shot" mode. But magazine reports revealed that when the special feature is used in daylight or a lighted room with a special filter it can "see through" clothing - underwear can show up, especially on those lightly dressed, and people wearing swimsuits look almost naked. A Sony spokesman said the first the company knew of the camera's surprise feature was when reporters started asking for comments on the "new way" of using the camera. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555514238-e9f *** Killer mink, sharp fish dominate U.K. newspapers If you are lucky enough to avoid the killer mink marauding through Britain's forests and the razor fish littered across its beaches, watch out for the funky chickens. This is the peak of the so-called "Silly Season," when editors desperate to fill space resort to stories which would usually be buried deep inside the paper. "In France and Italy the whole country shuts down in August - even cinemas close - but in Britain, hacks must still turn out a newspaper and hope that something or other happens while the population takes its two-week holiday," wrote Linda Grant of the Guardian broad-sheet. In the dog days of August, anything will do. Most front pages on Monday were dominated by the tragic story of unwary bathers on a beach in southwestern England who cut their feet open on the exposed shells of razor fish. (Reuters) *** Iran women to be allowed to watch male wrestling meet Iranian women will be permitted to attend a men's wrestling competition for the first time in nearly 20 years, the vice-president of Iran's wrestling federation said Wednesday. A special viewing section will be allocated to women during the World Wrestling Championships in Tehran on Sept. 8-11, the daily newspaper Tous quoted Mohammad-Reza Taleqani as saying. After the 1979 Islamic Revolution, women have been prohibited from attending men's sports competition. See http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2555516914-d63 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:01:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:50:44 -0500 from On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:50:44 -0500 MAYHEW said: >Is there sort of a techno-poetics specific to American poetry of which >Pound is the founder, an emphasis on the invention of new literary >techniques? While there are avant-gardes everywhere I don't find this same >obsession with techne per se in other modern traditions, to the same >extent at least. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is >what Bly was trying to say back in the 50s and 60s. (not that I agree >with HIM) > >Jones, as described by H. Gould, seems vaguely Heideggerian (if that is >not a redundancy). The Heideggerian approach would seem to distrust >technique for at least two reasons--because technique seems somehow >inessential to what poetry is really about, and because technique is >related to technology, seeing the world as somehow raw material waiting >for us to instrumentalize it. Am I on the right track here or am I missing >the point? You're not off the point but it gets complicated. From the little I've read of Jones so far it does seem he could fall into a sort of reactionary dualistic thinking along the lines of CP Snow, emphasizing the wide gap between science and art, technology and culture. But it's complicated; his father & grandfathe r I think were both craft workers in the London dockyards; his poetry his FILLED with images of techne, making, etc.; he had an anthropological concept of "man" the maker, claiming that "the Christian religion could not exist without artefacture" (the bread & wine were not simply things of nature but were "made" things). Jones's fear of the sameness of industrializing technology is related to his "Welsh" consciousness, the identification with a threatened local culture, and perhaps this fear blinded him to the creative-theoretical (non instrumental) aspects of science. But he made up for it with a highly organized christological aesthetics: the universe is itself a "work of art", a "making"; the sacraments unite humanity with the divine form at the crux of that making; art which remains true to itself (the orbit of free & beautiful "making") is a sign of that larger whole; and so on. Jones's own poetry is highly technical & experimental - but he distinguished between all the functional arts (from agriculture to war) & the fine arts, which are strictly "useless", being devoted to beauty-as-it-is. (Not without acknowledging the beauty of the functional as a basis & inspiration of the fine arts.) If you read some of his essays & poetry you notice his awareness of a great deal of "useless beauty" not only in art itself but in life in general, everywhere. The link between the two is what he saw threatened by mere functionalism, utilitarianism, standardisation, etc. I don't want to juxtapose Pound & Jones; you can find these affinities & contrasts just about anywhere. Perhaps Jones didn't emphasize the "instrumentalities" of technique as much as Pound did because he was actually more derivative, & borrowed a lot from Pound himself. But you won't find Jones talking about the culture-changing possibilities of the variable foot or the breath-line or the materiality of the signifier or breaking the pentameter etc. etc. He had a different, perhaps deeper sense of craft, possibly because he was a skilled painter as well as a poet. All the techne goes for naught if the "form" of the artwork gives no "sign" - and he understands this in a kind of strict, Jesuitical, almost military sense, derived partly from Joyce & Aquinas. & the "signs" are coterminous & continuous with the miraculous & incarnational formal "sign-substance" of reality itself... - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 23:46:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:34:38 -0400 from On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 16:34:38 -0400 Jordan Davis said: > >But! subtle observations distributed among several clauses become >attenuated, less robust. Associationism and stream-of-consciousness present >a cluster of meanings, literature is writing again! Progress! (Or, >epistomology as SWAT team). > >The party isn't over, you just stopped getting invited, at least until >things get retro enough for you to be seen as a genial precursor of the next >odd use for words. > >Is this change in the making of meaning from the clausal genteel to free >clusterfuck ... is it a DIALECTIC change? Always already? Never not yet? Abstract art makes a splash by devaluing every referent except itself, but that's a risky strategy because the next step is to devalue itself; so you have Ab Expressionism & then the referent zeroes in on flags & targets for a moment & then pop, value of art per se is gone. Example of Jones's idea of a virtue taken in isolation. So postmodernism took association streams of meaning & just left the clusters, took out the meanings; you have abstract-abstractionism in literature; self-reference to nada; clusters of clusters. Naturally the clausal-causal sentence starts to seem dialectical in this atmosphere. "The purpose of art is to give pleasure" somebody said. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 00:35:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII is this a joke? On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, hen wrote: > > Abstract art makes a splash by devaluing every referent except itself, > but that's a risky strategy because the next step is to devalue itself; > so you have Ab Expressionism & then the referent zeroes in on flags > & targets for a moment & then pop, value of art per se is gone. Example > of Jones's idea of a virtue taken in isolation. So postmodernism took > association streams of meaning & just left the clusters, took out the > meanings; you have abstract-abstractionism in literature; self-reference > to nada; clusters of clusters. Naturally the clausal-causal sentence > starts to seem dialectical in this atmosphere. "The purpose of art is to > give pleasure" somebody said. - Henry Gould > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 09:14:17 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: "I" is another"--- Comments: To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ah--ok. but really--I was attacking yr instance of "self or sense" as primary device--that might have been true at one point of williams--but the poem extends much further than the "senses" and--again--my instance of Duchamp--and Williams--as Williams was most influenced and interested in that school of thot--the armory show/etc. we need to rid the "self" from such discussion of poetics-- "I" amend. TB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 01:18:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: more f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" * In May, Walter Scott Knieriemen, who admitted breaking into a woman's home in Wheeling, W. Va., was acquitted of burglary charges after a jury apparently found that he had done it without illegal intent. A psychiatrist testified that Knieriemen suffered from a childhood-based sexual dysfunction that impelled him to pursue a pair of leather gloves he had recently seen the woman wear. * The Guardian (London) newspaper reported in May on the enormous television audiences in Brazil watching the nightly, Jerry Springer-like show "Ratinho Livre" (roughly, The Mouse, Unleashed), a forum for the downtrodden. Among recent interviewees were patients with horrible medical conditions begging for otherwise-unaffordable treatment (e.g., 8-year-old boy with 21 tumors in his mouth); a woman whose eyes were skewered and ears lopped off in a domestic fight but whose husband was still on the lam; and an equally unpopular husband and wife, whom the audience urged to assault one another. * Cafe Ke'ilu ("Cafe Make Believe") opened in a trendy section of Tel Aviv, Israel, in April, with tables, chairs, plates, silverware, menus, and servers, but no food or drink. Explained manager Nir Caspi (who calls the experience "conceptual dining"), people come to be seen and to meet people but not for the actual food. The menu, designed by top-rated chef (and owner) Phillipe Kaufman, lets diners order some of the world's most exquisite dishes (eel mousse, salad of pomegranates, if in season), "served" on elegant (but empty) platters. * In November, the Albuquerque Environmental Health Department, in an official inspection report, urged that the Ice House nude-dance club should immediately correct two food- contamination conditions. First, it was serving pizza at less than the required 140 degrees F. Second, wrote the city inspector, a sanitation risk was being posed by a dancer named Stephanie Evans, whose act consisted in part of expelling Ping Pong balls from her vagina to various points in the room, in that the balls could possibly land on pizza slices or in customers' drinks. * The official historical agency Heritage Canada released its 1998 calendar in January marking such benchmark dates as "World Book and Copyright Day" but making no mention of Christmas and Easter. And an official Valentine's Day poster at Langara College in Vancouver, British Columbia, featuring a silhouetted female and a male ready to kiss, drew fire from a campus gay and lesbian group, which suggested a "neutral" image of two hands clasping. That latter image itself was later derided by a Langara student union representative as possibly offensive to a person with no hands. * In March, the Romanian soccer team Jiul Petrosani sold midfielder Ion Radu to the Valcea team for about $2,500 worth of pork. (Jiul Petrosani earlier traded defenseman Liviu Baicea to Valcea for 10 soccer balls.) * In a story on pet-friendly hotels, the Boston Globe in April reported that the Four Seasons lets pets stay free and offers a special menu (including room service) featuring "Rin Tin Tin Tartare" (tenderloin and egg yolk) and "Cat's Meow" (poached salmon with arborio rice), as well as special desserts and dishes for pets on a diet. * In February, Christian Poincheval, a radio station manager in LeMans, France, introduced Petit Lutin toilet paper for the "reading room," on which are printed short articles on French current affairs, geography, and culture, with no-stain ink and new editions to be released monthly. * Recent Restaurant-Openings: In Tokyo, the trendy Alcatraz BC, themed after the California prison, in which diners are handcuffed, eat in cells, and must beg permission from the guards to be allowed out to visit the restroom. And in London, a pill-themed restaurant called The Pharmacy (designed by edgy artist Damien Hirst), with prescription containers everywhere, barstool seats resembling aspirins, and staff dressed as surgeons. ("The challenge," said co- owner Jonathan Kennedy, "was how far you can go before it becomes too much.") And in Singapore, the House of Mao, an otherwise-upscale Chinese restaurant but with green-uniformed staff and pictures galore of Mao Zedong. * In February, two Russian cosmonauts aboard the Mir space station hawked NASA space pens ($32) and other paraphernalia on the American QVC shopping channel, in an effort to raise some money for their country's underfunded space program. A total of 530 people bought something, including 11 who paid from $90 to $2,500 for tiny Mars rocks. Six others submitted to credit inquiries about buying $25,000 Sokol KV-2 spacesuits. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 02:19:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: Elaboration for Andy Kaufman MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Elaboration 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < I'm always surprised about the reactions my work receives. I live inside of the texts, surrounded by them. I think they're literally the only reason I'm alive. I can't see them all that clearly, and I wear glasses even for the most mundane tasks of everyday life. I thirst for responses, imagine readers and other writers, imagine the world held together by toothpicks and safety pins. Someone carefully breaking through the fabric. Another voice which is also a face. 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < Sometimes I would like her to wear suspenders. They would carefully and lovingly wrap around the softness of the shoulders, descending in front, and behind as well, tiny clips holding everything in place, the X-hieroglyph before and behind the body, or perhaps parallel lines. For the nourishment that the reaction to my writing gives, were he to take soft time and pen in hand. 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < He was beautiful and read my words slowly, one after another, for example this one, and now this. Then he would write to me and for me, on the lists and backchannel, such sweet sweet lines such that I would learn true understanding of my work and life. 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < Sometimes I will dream of a reader who comes to me in her sleep. 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < always learning and beautiful Alan 2d1 < 18d16 < 21d18 < 54d50 < 57d52 < 74d68 < 77,78d70 < < 82d73 < 108d98 < 2d1 < 5d3 < 11d8 < __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 06:31:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: address request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello does anyone have a current email and/or snailmail address for kevin magee?...backchannel, please. peter ganick potepoet@home.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 07:50:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger Comments: To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com In-Reply-To: <35D22717.CC063D78@ma.ultranet.com> from "Donald Wellman" at Aug 12, 98 07:36:56 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think Don's answer to Henry below is a smart and succinct frame. The mention of Heidegger, too, is potentially useful - Jones, as described by Henry believes that "all art is a sign-making activity which points toward something lost," - this, I think bears relation to that tendency of Heidegger's (which, incidentally, rubs off on Derrida) to deify the endless chain of signification. As Heidegger put it, "The origin of language is strange and mysterious. And this means that language could only have arisen from the overpowering, the strange and terrible, through man's departure into being. In this departure, language was being, embodied in the word: poetry." What's interesting to me here is that someone like Dewey wouldn't take exception to Heidegger's premise so much as his emphases, as revealed in those adjectives: "strange and mysterious...the overpowering, the strange and terrible." Language becomes in Heidegger's hands, the substituted God-term, it is what has been lost, and - most important - what can only be found in a moment of transcendent revelation or the like. If Jones is like Heidegger and Heidegger is like Pound it's here: "the book should be a ball of light in one's hand," as EP put it. So while Dewey would certainly agree that language is mysterious, that, as Heidegger would say (after Heracleitus), it "likes to hide," he would be careful about using words like "overpowering" and "terrible" b/c he's keen to their rhetorical dubiousness. He'd prefer to emphasize the utility of linguistic contingency when it is *not* mystefied, when art is not a hand stretched toward a lost other (language, God, it makes no difference since rhetorically it serves the same purpose: we were once part of it and now we're alienated); when art is, instead a particularly useful method for negotiating both with and against received vocabularies, useful, as Don sugested, for discovering "what's new" about the body's relation to the body-politic. -m. According to Donald Wellman: > > I'll chirp in here. > > For both Pound and Jones, I believe 'techne' is a form of weaving over > the surface of something soul-like and essentailly spiritual, a catching > of those shadows: > And the small stars now fall from the olive branch, > Forked shadow falls dark on the terrace > More black than the floating martin (EP, Canto XLVII) > > For Williams, 'techne' is more mahinic, the poem being a machine made of > words: 'techne' becomes 'method'. And this seems a pretty clear line > through Creeley and Olson to Bernstein. I think the notion of poetry or > language as an instrumental extension of the senses useful for making > discoveries otherwise not-detectable seems to me a very American, very > pragmatic take on how or why one writes. > > So as far as this history goes, Pound is on Henry's side; Williams etc > aligns with Dewey etc. > > Don Wellman > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:05:12 -0400 Reply-To: Poetics List Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: bpNichol Conference, Program (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On the Horizon: bpNichol After Ten Tentative Program, as of 10 August September 25-26, Emily Carr College of Art and Design Room 328, 1400 Johnson Street Granville Island, Vancouver Friday, September 25 6:00 - 7:00 p.m. Registration Music by Susan McMaster, poems for bp on CD Installations by derek A. beaulieu (displayed throughout the conference) 7:00 - 8:00 p.m. "bp: pushing the boundaries," a film by Brian Nash 8:00 - 11:00 p.m. Readings and performances (Readers will include Lillian Allen, and Darren Wershler-Henry ) * Saturday, September 26 9:30 a.m. Registration 10:00 a.m. - 12:00p.m. Introductions Panel 1: Frank Davey, Daphne Marlatt, Fred Wah, Irene Niechoda (moderator) 12:00 - 1:00 p.m. Lunch 1:00 - 1:30 p.m. Stan Bevington, Coach House Books, "printing bpNichol" 1:30 - 3:30 p.m. Panel 2: Clint Burnham, Ashok Mathur, Peter Jaeger, Marie Annharte Baker 3:30 - 3:45 p.m. Coffee break 3:45 -6:00 p.m. Panel 3: Brian Dedora, Steven Ross Smith, Carl Peters, Steve McCaffery Respondent to the day: Sharon Thesen 6:00 - 8:00 p.m. Dinner 8:00 - 10:30 p.m. Gala reading (readers TBA) Ticket prices: $5 single evening; $10 two day pass For more information or to register, contact Jacqueline Larson, West Coast Line, 604-291-4287; email jlarson@sfu.ca NOTE: RELATED EVENT!! 24 September, SFU campus, a celebration of "bpNichol Day" Special Collectsion, 7th Floor, W.A.C. Bennett Library 1:30 - 3:30 p.m. - Display of publications and manuscripts from the Nichol papers - Readings by Steve McCaffery and Darren Wershler-Henry - Ellie Nichol in attendance ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:26:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Reading In Providence In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980527120341.007c6ab0@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Brent Long" at May 27, 98 12:03:41 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, just curious whether the tuesday night reading series is still happening every tuesday - thinking of coming by this week, having recently moved to Pawtucket. Thanks. -Mike. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Reading In Providence In-Reply-To: <199808131426.KAA45186@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Michael Magee" at Aug 13, 98 10:26:04 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Whoops - ignore this, meant to backchannel. -m. According to Michael Magee: > > Hi, just curious whether the tuesday night reading series is still > happening every tuesday - thinking of coming by this week, having > recently moved to Pawtucket. Thanks. -Mike. > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:48:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Todd -- Why get rid of the "self", even only from these discussions? It sounds so retro, so Lukacs, I mean, _maybe_ ..... maybe get rid of selfish poetics? or elfin poetics, shellfish ... but you gotta remember, what Charlie B. said was that it was a mistake to posit the self as the basis for a poetics, he didn't _exclude_ it, not that _Content's Dream_ is _scripture_ ...... or papal bull ..... no matter what the inarticulate and unreasonable forces of journalism might say, to argue for the interchangeability of selves is .. on the one hand, beautiful, on the other, deadly so so anyway, as I say, Todd, I'm saying it to you, Todd, signed, Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 08:46:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Alexander Subject: Re: In-Reply-To: <01bdc6c9$5dd1d240$3fcf54a6@blwczoty> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:48 AM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >Todd -- > >Why get rid of the "self", even only from these discussions? It sounds so >retro, so Lukacs, I mean, _maybe_ ..... maybe get rid of selfish poetics? >or elfin poetics, shellfish ... Todd didn't suggest getting rid of the "self" from such discussions. Here's what he said, precisely: "we need to rid the 'self' from such discussion of poetics--" which as I read it, suggests that we need to get rid of such discussion of poetics, or at least banish such discussion from the "self." which I took as a more interesting suggestion. charles charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:01:53 -0400 Reply-To: jconte@acsu.buffalo.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joseph Conte Organization: SUNY at Buffalo Subject: DLB 193 and its contents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Bob Archambeau (whose fine article on former Buffalo doctoral candidate Michael Anania appears in DLB 193) for posting the table of contents for this volume, copies of which have just arrived at the homes and offices of its various contributors, several of whom are listmembers. One correction to Bob's list of essays, while Steve Evans did write an excellent piece on Bob Perelman for the volume, the essay on Stanley Plumly was written by Plumly's colleague at Columbia, SC, Ron Baughman. I'll take some credit for reversing the trend in earlier volumes on American poetry toward the New Formalism and other creations of the creative writing programs around the country. But I'd like to note that contact with many of the contributors through this list was instrumental in arranging, gathering, and recruiting (the hardest part of editing these volumes) the range of articles on progressive, experimental writing. It's true that the earlier volumes, v. 165 & v. 169, are available through Amazon.com at about $150. Contributors can get a 40% discount on sales of the volume. It's obviously targeted by Gale Research Press for sale as a reference volume to research, university, school, and public libraries. So it's widely available, or will be in a short while. And the 81/2 x 11 in. pages are easily photocopied. Thanks again to all the contributors--and subjects of entries--who are on Poetics. Joseph Conte ======================================================================= Joseph M. Conte (716) 645-2575 x1009 Associate Professor and FAX: (716) 645-5980 Director of Graduate Studies Department of English 306 Clemens Hall SUNY at Buffalo Buffalo, NY 14260-4610 http://www.acsu.buffalo.edu/~jconte/ ======================================================================= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:17:05 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit seeing as the "self" has been a dangerous tool for so much (terrorism--today--government selves--a poetcis that is still hampered by "a spontaneous overflow of emotion) and that I feel akin to the visual arts as much if not more often than so much poetry--and those visual or plastic arts of--as I sd Duchamp--and such--the focus needs to be on LANGUAGE not the self that thinks it is representing a sense or emotion or even thot. I think Charle's work is so much more interesting--and that of course "I" am not saying that we have no selves--only that our art needs to extend itself the way that film, sculpture, painting, assembladge, etc has done . Poetry still comes with a knot tied in it--for readers--that this is a reading of the poet's "self". Burroughs said that painting had (1950) far surpassed writing--and I'm always still very much with that thot in mind. it's not deadly to try and remove the self from a discussion of poetry. As I've said--(it was me) if I want to know something of the poet's elf--we can do that over coffee--if I want a poem--I'll read! TB (ReMap) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 20:17:57 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Charles Alexander wrote: > > At 10:48 AM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Todd -- > > > >Why get rid of the "self", even only from these discussions? It sounds so > >retro, so Lukacs, I mean, _maybe_ ..... maybe get rid of selfish poetics? > >or elfin poetics, shellfish ... > > Todd didn't suggest getting rid of the "self" from such discussions. Here's > what he said, precisely: > > "we need to rid the 'self' from such discussion of poetics--" > > which as I read it, suggests that we need to get rid of such discussion of > poetics, or at least banish such discussion from the "self." which I took > as a more interesting suggestion. > > charles > > charles alexander :: poet and book artist :: chax@theriver.com > chax press :: alexander writing/design/publishing > books by artists' hands :: web sites built with care and vision > http://alexwritdespub.com/chax :: http://alexwritdespub.com yup! again--"I" is another ... (Rimbaud) TB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:13:22 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hen wrote: > > On Wed, 12 Aug 1998 15:50:44 -0500 MAYHEW said: > >Is there sort of a techno-poetics specific to American poetry of which > >Pound is the founder, an emphasis on the invention of new literary > >techniques? While there are avant-gardes everywhere I don't find this same > >obsession with techne per se in other modern traditions, to the same > >extent at least. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong on this. This is > >what Bly was trying to say back in the 50s and 60s. (not that I agree > >with HIM) > > > >Jones, as described by H. Gould, seems vaguely Heideggerian (if that is > >not a redundancy). The Heideggerian approach would seem to distrust > >technique for at least two reasons--because technique seems somehow > >inessential to what poetry is really about, and because technique is > >related to technology, seeing the world as somehow raw material waiting > >for us to instrumentalize it. Am I on the right track here or am I missing > >the point? > > You're not off the point but it gets complicated. From the little I've read of > Jones so far it does seem he could fall into a sort of reactionary dualistic > thinking along the lines of CP Snow, emphasizing the wide gap between science > and art, technology and culture. But it's complicated; his father & grandfathe > r I think were both craft workers in the London dockyards; his poetry his > FILLED with images of techne, making, etc.; he had an anthropological concept > of "man" the maker, claiming that "the Christian religion could not exist > without artefacture" (the bread & wine were not simply things of nature but > were "made" things). > > Jones's fear of the sameness of industrializing technology is related to > his "Welsh" consciousness, the identification with a threatened local > culture, and perhaps this fear blinded him to the creative-theoretical > (non instrumental) aspects of science. But he made up for it with a > highly organized christological aesthetics: the universe is itself a > "work of art", a "making"; the sacraments unite humanity with the > divine form at the crux of that making; art which remains true to itself > (the orbit of free & beautiful "making") is a sign of that larger whole; > and so on. Jones's own poetry is highly technical & experimental - > but he distinguished between all the functional arts (from agriculture to > war) & the fine arts, which are strictly "useless", being devoted to > beauty-as-it-is. (Not without acknowledging the beauty of the functional > as a basis & inspiration of the fine arts.) If you read some of his essays & > poetry you notice his awareness of a great deal of "useless beauty" not > only in art itself but in life in general, everywhere. The link between > the two is what he saw threatened by mere functionalism, utilitarianism, > standardisation, etc. > > I don't want to juxtapose Pound & Jones; you can find these > affinities & contrasts just about anywhere. Perhaps Jones didn't > emphasize the "instrumentalities" of technique as much as Pound did > because he was actually more derivative, & borrowed a lot from Pound > himself. But you won't find Jones talking about the culture-changing > possibilities of the variable foot or the breath-line or the materiality > of the signifier or breaking the pentameter etc. etc. He had a different, > perhaps deeper sense of craft, possibly because he was a skilled painter > as well as a poet. All the techne goes for naught if the "form" of the > artwork gives no "sign" - and he understands this in a kind of strict, > Jesuitical, almost military sense, derived partly from Joyce & Aquinas. > & the "signs" are coterminous & continuous with the miraculous & incarnational > formal "sign-substance" of reality itself... - Henry Gould Unfortunately for Henry's argument the "creative-theoretical (non-instrumental) aspects of science" (whatever this phrase might mean) are MORE dependent on notions of "sameness" e.g mathematical formalization, quantification, reduction etc.) than their assembly line fruits. A limited number of mathematically expressable characteristics or properties circumcribes the being of the object. This approaches Heidegger's view, in small part, on science and technology. Sameness at the level of experiment and communication is mandatory and anomolies are ignored, suppressed and/or elided unless they overwhelm through their own process of formalization the existing (dare I use the word) paradigm. This notion of formal constituents did escape Jones and is related to his ideas concerning social hierarchies. ---Carlo Parcelli ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:23:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: Gerd Stern/Seven Stray Cats Comments: To: POETICS@UBVM.cc.buffalo.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm keen to know more about the word of Gerd Stern and the poem-performance group, "Seven Stray Cats"--especially in the period of the late 50s/early 60s? What leads can anyone give me? Al Filreis University of Pennsylvania ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:17:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: je est un autre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I always understood that as saying that by the time your poem is being read, someone else is inhabiting the space of your written "I". That the poet's written "I" is a construct that must make room for another. And I also thought it meant that who-one-is. is as strange as anything else writing touches upon. And also, "to you, I am a you." And then . . . "Because I would not stop for Death" .. .is a composite of ED(whatever one discovers or conjectures concerning her), oneself (or "one's elf" as amusingly put by parties to this discussion), the condition of being an I (which is not comnpletely an historical determination, that is, we are species AND we are new), as another New Englander has it, "As soon as/I speak, I/speaks." A rider : the other day, a friend defined _I love you_ as "I would die for you." Otherwise, it shouldn't be said, he said. !! I'm intrigued how this attaches to "I is an other." Perhaps Rimbaud was feeling the Otherness of language, too. That one is othered by language, even as one is created of it. One goes to speak but--the words are already in the way. "I can feel my eye/breaking." But then there's Whitman's sense of I, "I am there with you in your kayak"--of which Lawrence makes such hay in _Studies in Classical American Literature_ . However all this may/not be (for you or for me), the poetic act is the apparently ungrammatical "est" in lieu of "suis," the separation that prevents the knee-jerk assumption of what must always follow "je". It's a fissure thru which l/sp/eak volumes. It's the necessary act of transgression that stops habit and opens thought, it's the poetic. David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:26:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Comments: To: toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET writes: >yup! again--"I" is another ... (Rimbaud) "Anyone, provided that he can be amusing, has the right to talk about himself" (Baudelaire). dwm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:29:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: je est un autre Comments: To: dcmb@METRO.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dcmb@METRO.NET writes: >Perhaps Rimbaud was feeling the Otherness of language, too. Perhaps he was saying it's okay to talk about the self if the self is seen as another. dwm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:56:03 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: je est un autre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My word-processing spell check translates "je" as "Joe." I propose we adopt joe as the universal pronoun. -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:47:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: whose emily d? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I spent four years in Amherst and never once went to the "Homestead." The Homestead is the homey name tagged onto a brass plaque sign in front of The Emily Dickinson House. It's on Main Street. I lived a stone's throw (the best form of anecdotal measurement) west on North Pleasant Street. On the opposite side of the Homestead is Bart's Pizza. It's ok but not spectacular and my friends and I patronized it mainly because it was on Main Street and the delivery time was relatively quick. Up the street, indeed uphill, from the Homestead, is the new police station, Amherst College, and the center of town (Amherst). I don't believe any of what I am saying is mentioned in the Susan Howe book. This is obviously a political issue, and I will be heard. There is a tourist shop in the garage of the Emily Dickinson House. There are books for sale, postcards, booklets, chapbooks, book mementos, photographs, and key-chains with heavy books on them. I bought three postcards and didn't send them to anyone. Down the street from the Emily Dickinson House is a house of no distinction save the fact that my friend Jack lived there one semester. One night Jack and his friends had a great party where everyone got really drunk and stoned. We danced and sang, just like in the Amherst of Emily Dickinson's time. Then Jack got completely naked and began running around the house. It was springtime I think. When the cops showed up they entered without knocking and shot the stereo. No, wait, come to think of it they did not shoot the stereo but they did ask one of us to turn it down. I then began an endless, meaningless, and stupid cascade of verbal abuse directed at the law officers which was filled with forgettable things but said quite loudly. On a certain cue, like a trained pet, I clammed up. The cue was: "if you don't shut the fuck up, we're going to arrest you." This proved to me that the State is superior in psychological warfare. I was too weak to resist. It was at that point that Jack ran into the house, naked as a bluejay. On the walk to the new police station (to retrieve Jack) we passed the Emily Dickinson House. It was closed. The tour of the Homestead begins in the garden. The guide, a middle-aged woman with an English accent and librarian glasses, spoke with touching fondness about what Emily grew, where Emily walked, what Emily's niece had to say about it, and where the barn stood. Apparently, no structure had ever stood in this portion of Homestead land. In the distance, a man was exiting the parlor known as Bart's. If you think the single surviving photograph of Emily Dickinson is pretty dry and unrevealing, then her house is a crusty supplement indeed to the photograph. The house has been restored well enough (an Evangelical pastor with a family of 8 once lived there and they installed four bathrooms) and we even got to see the narrow steps where Emily sat while her "guests" played the piano for her but didn't get to meet her. There was a bit of freakishness about the house, about Emily herself, that was charming. We saw China. The china was a wedding gift to Emily's parents. Here is something of note: there is a Seth Thomas clock in Emily's bedroom. You may recall that Charles Olson's dad wound a Seth Thomas clock in his drawers in the living room every day except the 30th of each month. Emily's original bed has kept quite well over the years. It's a sleigh bed. The tour guide tells us that Emily asked that all her letters be burned upon her death. And her poems too I say. No, the guide says, just the letters. Well, I'm not going to argue with you I say, but you're completely wrong, a sham and travesty to the National Park system. She clenches her fists. Her eyes flare in anger. I make a fart sound with my lips but she has already succeeded in undermining my confidence. Susan Howe, where are you? After a spell, some wandering, reading of placards but no taking of pictures, we leave the house. It's a quite nice Federal style house. Next door, the home of Emily's brother is being restored. It looks like the mansion from The Addams Family. It was occupied by the Dickinson family until 1987, the year I came to Amherst. As my companion and I walk toward town and past the now-not-quite-as-new police station, we are diverted by some new public art. Two silhouettes atop two large rocks and facing each other and making hand gestures, as if speaking to each other. One silhouette is Emily Dickinson. Beside her is a plaque explaining that Emily was a poet, lived a stone's throw from the big stone her shadow now sits upon, and a poem is reprinted too. The opposite figure? If you guessed Robert Frost, there is a future in public art awaiting you. He too is gesturing beside the plaque which explains him, his life, his time in Amherst, his kooky relationship to words, etc. My companion snaps pictures. She's from California. And I, I turn to the police station, toward the west, where the course of empire went. <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 10:53:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: gerd stern Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At first I thought to b-c this to Al Filreis, but decided it may be of interest more generally. There was an article some years since, in _West Coast Line_, which comes from Simon Fraser U in Vancouver (Burnaby, to be exact), making use of archived materials having to do with _Northwest Review_ and _Coyote's Journal_ and which I recall referred to Stern's showing of his film "Y"(? "Stop Sign"?) at U of O in Eugene in 62 or 63. This was a showing I attended, and thus may be mixing up the article I allude to, with my own experience: apologies if so. Gerd Stern was a wild-man, mad-artist "beat" from SFran, & his art was far out to some of us then, heavily edited to keep the eye quick, and as part of its "epater le bourgeois" address. I think portions of human anatomy not usually seen in movies (back then) were in the film and caused some scandal. This may have prepared Oregonian conservative hearts and minds to turn into a ton of bricks a year or so later when an issue of NWR was declared blasphemous, obscene and treasonable, by powers-that-were, & got the editorial staff (of which I'd been a member), canned. This period is increasingly interesting to me--where the 50s and the 60s meet in teeter-totter fashion--and I hope this note, though fragmentary, will bring further testimony. As to the Seven Stray Cats, of them I recall nothing. Anyone got a dish of cream re them? David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 11:12:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: joe est un autre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" JOE EST UN AUTRE, THIS I KNOW (for Laura Wright) Joe est un autre, believe you me! A dude more autre there couldn't be. He thinks so un- & -like the rest, And anything that you suggest He may do opposite. O, he's perverse But what strikes all as even worse, He has bits missing from his brain. He says that Portugal's in Spain, That Spain's in pain, that pain's delight, That black is white, that day is night, That night is a lacustrine city, That he uses words because they're pretty, Not to be accurate : if this cause woe, He says So what, those are the breaks. Yours truly, Joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 14:14:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: joe est un autre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit laura & david....thanks for clearing THAT up...always thought it was Gene est un autre. mccrary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:16:19 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: je est un autre MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit david bromige wrote: > > I always understood that as saying that by the time your poem is being > read, someone else is inhabiting the space of your written "I". That the > poet's written "I" is a construct that must make room for another. > > And I also thought it meant that who-one-is. is as strange as anything else > writing touches upon. And also, "to you, I am a you." And then . . . > > "Because I would not stop for Death" .. .is a composite of ED(whatever one > discovers or conjectures concerning her), oneself (or "one's elf" as > amusingly put by parties to this discussion), the condition of being an I > (which is not comnpletely an historical determination, that is, we are > species AND we are new), as another New Englander has it, "As soon as/I > speak, I/speaks." > > A rider : the other day, a friend defined _I love you_ as "I would die for > you." Otherwise, it shouldn't be said, he said. !! I'm intrigued how this > attaches to "I is an other." > > Perhaps Rimbaud was feeling the Otherness of language, too. That one is > othered by language, even as one is created of it. One goes to speak > but--the words are already in the way. "I can feel my eye/breaking." But > then there's Whitman's sense of I, "I am there with you in your kayak"--of > which Lawrence makes such hay in _Studies in Classical American Literature_ > . > > However all this may/not be (for you or for me), the poetic act is the > apparently ungrammatical "est" in lieu of "suis," the separation that > prevents the knee-jerk assumption of what must always follow "je". It's a > fissure thru which l/sp/eak volumes. It's the necessary act of > transgression that stops habit and opens thought, it's the poetic. David yes--and the poetic is the tension/between. Todd ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:17:26 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: Comments: To: "David W. McFadden" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David W. McFadden wrote: > > toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > >yup! again--"I" is another ... (Rimbaud) > "Anyone, provided that he can be amusing, has the right to talk about > himself" (Baudelaire). > dwm "either this wallpaper goes or I do....." Wilde. You'd better be damned amusing to speak of yourself! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:22:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Mullen interview In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980527120341.007c6ab0@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Brent Long" at May 27, 98 12:03:41 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy folks, just thought I'd mention that the long interview (2 hrs, & in my copy 30 single spaced pages) which Farah Griffin, Kristen Gallagher and I did w/ Harryette Mullen is now up on the Mullen page at the EPC website. Mullen ranges all over the place and is always fascinating. For those of you who liked the 16 pg excerpt of this interview in COMBO 1 I'd say its a must. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:41:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Re: je est un autre Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/13/98 1:51:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laura@NAROPA.EDU writes: << My word-processing spell check translates "je" as "Joe." I propose we adopt joe as the universal pronoun. >> I thought it already was. joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 12:49:56 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Roger Farr Subject: Chance Operations MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anybody suggest or comment on good (esp. free) computer programs useful for chance operation poetry. I'm aware of some anagram generators, and the Dada Engine, but that's about it. Cheers, Roger Farr rfarr@sfu.ca ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:13:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kellogg Subject: Bob est un autre In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Joe Brennan wrote: > > In a message dated 8/13/98 1:51:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laura@NAROPA.EDU > writes: > > << > My word-processing spell check translates "je" as "Joe." I propose we adopt > joe as the universal pronoun. > >> > > I thought it already was. No joe, that would be "Bob." As Agent Cooper once asked, "Where does Bob come from?" Answers: (1) That cannot be revealed. (2) Maybe Bob is just the name we give to the evil we do. Cheers, David ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Duke University kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric (919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 15:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Mayhem,Headgear, sartorial MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I ran through my spell checker an article I just wrote, it suggested I change Mayhew to mayhem (I should have seen that one coming), Heidegger to headgear, Sartre to Sartorial. When we got back from Spain, my 3 year old daughter asked me "where did the hotel go?" I told her it was in Spain. The next day I asked her where the hotel was and she said "in the pain," thus anticipating David B' line "Spain is in the pain." Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:30:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: Joe am another Comments: To: David Kellogg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > In a message dated 8/13/98 1:51:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, laura@NAROPA.EDU > writes: > << > My word-processing spell check translates "je" as "Joe." I propose we adopt > joe as the universal pronoun. > > I thought it already was. No joe, that would be "Bob." As Agent Cooper once asked, "Where does Bob come from?" Answers: (1) That cannot be revealed. (2) Maybe Bob is just the name we give to the evil we do. Joe's assertion isn't negated by this information -- all it means is that evil isn't universal . . . (which will come as a great relief to the more theologically minded among us). Nice little ditty that David cooked up there! I read it as homage . . . people don't realize the tough time we universalists have . . . Joe (almost finished with _Radical Artifice_) Safdie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 13:31:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: whose emily d? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980813174716.00726114@po7.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Do they have the famous dining room table that sheltered the trysts of Mary Loomis Todd and Emily's brother? Did the docent mention any of that? At 01:47 PM 8/13/98 -0400, you wrote: >I spent four years in Amherst and never once went to the "Homestead." The >Homestead is the homey name tagged onto a brass plaque sign in front of The >Emily Dickinson House. It's on Main Street. I lived a stone's throw (the >best form of anecdotal measurement) west on North Pleasant Street. On the >opposite side of the Homestead is Bart's Pizza. It's ok but not spectacular >and my friends and I patronized it mainly because it was on Main Street and >the delivery time was relatively quick. Up the street, indeed uphill, from >the Homestead, is the new police station, Amherst College, and the center of >town (Amherst). > >I don't believe any of what I am saying is mentioned in the Susan Howe book. >This is obviously a political issue, and I will be heard. > >There is a tourist shop in the garage of the Emily Dickinson House. There >are books for sale, postcards, booklets, chapbooks, book mementos, >photographs, and key-chains with heavy books on them. I bought three >postcards and didn't send them to anyone. > >Down the street from the Emily Dickinson House is a house of no distinction >save the fact that my friend Jack lived there one semester. One night Jack >and his friends had a great party where everyone got really drunk and >stoned. We danced and sang, just like in the Amherst of Emily Dickinson's >time. Then Jack got completely naked and began running around the house. It >was springtime I think. > >When the cops showed up they entered without knocking and shot the stereo. >No, wait, come to think of it they did not shoot the stereo but they did ask >one of us to turn it down. I then began an endless, meaningless, and stupid >cascade of verbal abuse directed at the law officers which was filled with >forgettable things but said quite loudly. On a certain cue, like a trained >pet, I clammed up. The cue was: "if you don't shut the fuck up, we're going >to arrest you." This proved to me that the State is superior in >psychological warfare. I was too weak to resist. It was at that point that >Jack ran into the house, naked as a bluejay. > >On the walk to the new police station (to retrieve Jack) we passed the Emily >Dickinson House. It was closed. > >The tour of the Homestead begins in the garden. The guide, a middle-aged >woman with an English accent and librarian glasses, spoke with touching >fondness about what Emily grew, where Emily walked, what Emily's niece had >to say about it, and where the barn stood. Apparently, no structure had ever >stood in this portion of Homestead land. In the distance, a man was exiting >the parlor known as Bart's. > >If you think the single surviving photograph of Emily Dickinson is pretty >dry and unrevealing, then her house is a crusty supplement indeed to the >photograph. The house has been restored well enough (an Evangelical pastor >with a family of 8 once lived there and they installed four bathrooms) and >we even got to see the narrow steps where Emily sat while her "guests" >played the piano for her but didn't get to meet her. There was a bit of >freakishness about the house, about Emily herself, that was charming. We saw >China. The china was a wedding gift to Emily's parents. > >Here is something of note: there is a Seth Thomas clock in Emily's bedroom. >You may recall that Charles Olson's dad wound a Seth Thomas clock in his >drawers in the living room every day except the 30th of each month. > >Emily's original bed has kept quite well over the years. It's a sleigh bed. > >The tour guide tells us that Emily asked that all her letters be burned upon >her death. And her poems too I say. No, the guide says, just the letters. >Well, I'm not going to argue with you I say, but you're completely wrong, a >sham and travesty to the National Park system. She clenches her fists. Her >eyes flare in anger. I make a fart sound with my lips but she has already >succeeded in undermining my confidence. Susan Howe, where are you? > >After a spell, some wandering, reading of placards but no taking of >pictures, we leave the house. It's a quite nice Federal style house. Next >door, the home of Emily's brother is being restored. It looks like the >mansion from The Addams Family. It was occupied by the Dickinson family >until 1987, the year I came to Amherst. > >As my companion and I walk toward town and past the now-not-quite-as-new >police station, we are diverted by some new public art. Two silhouettes atop >two large rocks and facing each other and making hand gestures, as if >speaking to each other. One silhouette is Emily Dickinson. Beside her is a >plaque explaining that Emily was a poet, lived a stone's throw from the big >stone her shadow now sits upon, and a poem is reprinted too. The opposite >figure? If you guessed Robert Frost, there is a future in public art >awaiting you. He too is gesturing beside the plaque which explains him, his >life, his time in Amherst, his kooky relationship to words, etc. > >My companion snaps pictures. She's from California. And I, I turn to the >police station, toward the west, where the course of empire went. > > ><<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Daniel Bouchard >The MIT Press Journals >Five Cambridge Center >Cambridge, MA 02142 > >bouchard@mit.edu >phone: 617.258.0588 > fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:57:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Wild Things Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII can't remember if i forwarded this already or not. if yes then sorry, i appollogize for the redundancy again. still, kievn A Call for "Wild Things" > > In conjunction with "On the H Orizon: bpNichol After Ten" > An event sponsored by West Coast Line > Emily Carr Institute of Art and Design > Granville Island, Vancouver BC > September 25-26, 1998 For more information contact: > Glen Lowry, "Wild Things" Co-ordinator email: lowry@sfu.ca > > For information on "On the H Orizon" contact: > Jacqueline Larson, Managing Editor, West Coast Line, email: > jlarson@sfu.ca > phone: 604 - 291-4287 > > >As a tribute to bpNichol's enormous contribution to small press >publishing, "On the H Orizon: bpNichol After Ten" is putting a call out >for publishers and writers to produce what we're calling "Wild Things" >(after the title of bp's work in bp, published by Coach House in 1967). > >In the spirit of bp's work with small presses & small press networks, >we're inviting submissions of chapbooks or ephemeral publications, which >we can distribute as part of the event. > > SOME GUIDELINES: > > *All kinds and forms of text are welcome. > > *Publishers: choose a writer whose work extends a bp poetics; writers: > produce something of your own in tribute to bp. > > *Print run: 25 copies, lettered A-Z (excluding H). > > *Optional: designate the text somewhere as "An H Project." > > *West Coast Line will sell them at the conference at $5 each (50% to the > publisher, 50% for the conference costs). All unsold copies will be > returned. > > DEADLINES: Please contact Glen Lowry with intent to contribute ASAP. In > order to qualify for inclusion, Wild Things must be received by > September 18th. > > For more information contact: > Glen Lowry, "Wild Things" Co-ordinator email: lowry@sfu.ca > > For information on "On the H Orizon" contact: > Jacqueline Larson, Managing Editor, West Coast Line, email: > jlarson@sfu.ca > phone: 604 - 291-4287 > > "Wild Things" is designated by West Coast Line as "An H Project" in > honour of bpNichol > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 16:47:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Al Filreis In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What is going on here? For years there has been a fake name in my address book (for reasons I wont reveal), : Al Fileres. What's happening? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:56:39 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a question posed to the group: how does "location" (the "local" --Olson) affect or help affect yr writing? Todd Baron (ReMap) ? ? ? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:24:24 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beard Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > a question posed to the group: > > how does "location" (the "local" --Olson) > affect or help affect yr writing? It's been very important to me. The only long sequence (and I mean long both in terms of # of lines and the time over which it was/is being written) that I have attempted has the idea of location at its core. I wonder whether this is a tendency that others have noticed: my sequence (Urban Songs) evolved as a response or reaction to sequences by Olson, James K. Baxter, Leigh Davis and Dinah Hawken, all of which have a strong sense of engaging with location. I started Urban Songs not so much to write _about_ my location, but with the hope that all of its concerns (ambition, desire, poetics, technology, friendship) would inevitably be _of_ my location. And the location of the sequence is somewhat fluid: I moved from Wellington to Auckland and back while writing it, so the location represents a superimposition of these two cities upon "the idea of the city". In New Zealand, the idea of location has been central to the arts for much of this century, with "location" being equated with "landscape". But the last few decades have seen this equation breaking down, and I've been interested in the way that "location" (and "home") is now seen as being inscribed by culture; by economic, electronic, emotional and intellectual networks. I've lived in about six flats since I started the sequence, but there is a sense in which the poem's location remains constant. Of course, factors such as geography, climate and history leave unavoidable traces on the poems, but not to the extent that they do in the Maximus poems. Perhaps the centrality of location in one's work is related to one's sense of that location's otherness. Mid-century pakeha poets were obsessed with their location because it was so distant from Europe, that being the centre of the universe at the time. I imagine that many have consciously set out to write about the "ordinariness" of where they live, but the idea of location as a poetic concern might be more likely to occur to someone who is aware that their home is different from the norm. Tom Beard. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 13 Aug 1998 23:15:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: location location location Comments: To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Overall it doesn't matter to the reader, but for the writer, well, that's another matter. My best writing place is in the tub - of course writing by hand. After the soak, I use the computer to jazz up the rhymes and limes, and then I leave for another country. Japan is good, because there you can write about the four seasons. I like the Fall, because it is full of regret,and the spring is good too for promise. Of course then comes the dreaded winter - and that becomes - as we know - deadly. Summer I guess is for vacation - therefore useless for poetry! Yes, one can imagine me writing a poem in a cheap sake bar somewhere in Fukuoka - and damn it, it is that damn poet from NYC who made some deals with the yakuza - that Alan guy. He comes in and says: Why don't you join the FOP list? And I have, and now I am famous in front of billions, and they want more of my poems, my wit, my seasons (except for Summer, which you know...), and at last I can lay my head on the pillow and think of someone else's love.... which of course leads to another poem, story, or at least someone else's list. In other words, Mr Baron, ciao, tb ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:18:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: location location location Comments: To: toddbaron@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <35D3FBC7.300B@earthlink.net> from "toddbaron" at Aug 14, 98 08:56:39 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For me "location" ("the local" rings in my ear too much of "local color" etc) is the crucial corrective to whatever mythology of myself I might, at any given moment, be entertaining: b/c it implies constraints and privileges, also the flux of experiences re-situating "me" - and most importantly one's location is where one is always reminded that, to quote Nate Mackey, "not only other things but other *minds* exist." Creeley has this great quote, "The imagination of a commonwealth must make that sharing literal - there cannot be an invested partiality hidden from the participants...Realize that the general, the we-ness proposed in various realities, may well prove to be this kind. Obviously, any 'we' must, willynilly, submit to the organic orders of its existence: must sleep, must eat, must drink, most move, must die. But that is very nearly the totality of the actual demand. Elsewise, the 'geography leans in,' as Olson put it. Place is a real event - where you are is a law equal to what you are." So, in this sense community, or the imagination of a community, must be *located* - otherwise, as Creeley says elsewhere, "the general" (abstract, universal) might become "the General" (Patton, MacArthur). -m. at According to toddbaron: > > a question posed to the group: > > how does "location" (the "local" --Olson) > affect or help affect yr writing? > > > Todd Baron > (ReMap) > > > ? > ? > ? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:14:27 -0400 Reply-To: Gwyn McVay Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: piercing misreading (was location) In-Reply-To: <199808141118.HAA22080@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Michael Magee, I read >>>("the local" rings in my ear as a fashion statement--where "ring" is what an / earbob does-- bests Gwyn McVay ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 08:29:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: piercing misreading (was location) Comments: To: gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu In-Reply-To: from "Gwyn McVay" at Aug 14, 98 08:14:27 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, if I were wearing rings in my ear they would indeed be local rings, though I'd be thinking of them globally. :) -m. According to Gwyn McVay: > > Michael Magee, I read > > > >>>("the local" rings in my ear > > as a fashion statement--where "ring" is what an / earbob does-- > > > bests > Gwyn McVay > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:55:57 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Bob est un autre/ joe est un mama In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i vote for joe as the more versatile. when i taught briefly at a lockup facility for kids one of the ways they circumvented the rule against "inappropriate use of the word 'mother'" (i kid you not) was the following: knock knock. who's there? joe. joe who? JO MAMA!!! whereon they'd collapse in giggles at having snuck one over on their jailer/teachers. it was quite adorable. At 4:13 PM -0400 8/13/98, David Kellogg wrote: >On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Joe Brennan wrote: >> >> In a message dated 8/13/98 1:51:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >>laura@NAROPA.EDU >> writes: >> >> << >> My word-processing spell check translates "je" as "Joe." I propose we adopt >> joe as the universal pronoun. >> >> >> >> I thought it already was. > >No joe, that would be "Bob." > >As Agent Cooper once asked, "Where does Bob come from?" > >Answers: (1) That cannot be revealed. > (2) Maybe Bob is just the name we give to the evil we do. > >Cheers, >David >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Duke University >kellogg@acpub.duke.edu Program in Writing and Rhetoric >(919) 660-4357 Durham, NC 27708 >FAX (919) 660-4381 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 09:17:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: collation, collation, collation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Living in tenements has helped me appreciate the rage for palimpsests. J ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 07:19:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: Re: location location location In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" local as in low-cal and where are we or was that I? too thin to notice any way I is where I does to say nothing of the poem neither here nor there ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:02:26 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom: thanks for yr insight. Could you explain "pakeha" poets? I'm lost. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 20:07:46 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit charles alexander wrote: > > local > as in low-cal > > and where are > we > or > was that I? > > too thin > to notice > > any > way > > I is > where > I does > > to say > nothing > of the > poem > > neither > here nor > there re: the dreaded "I" (other) locate- d in. location in. loco motion in. so that --the view or the viewer's (er's ) eye? neither here nor there? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 10:36:28 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit toddbaron wrote: > a question posed to the group: > > how does "location" (the "local" --Olson) > affect or help affect yr writing? Todd: Here is an excerpt from a still raw (read rough draft) translation of Michaux (thanks to Anselm), which speaks to my experience of location. Location is a changing constant (does that make it an everpresent variable?) and thus always influential, always useful. What's really interesting to me is the location within oneself (or joe's self) that external locations and situations may affect. For instance, the ugliest wallpaper in the world, found in a Las Vegas hotel, *does something* to the mind which then goes its own ways... The Michaux: "There is a place in the body where one prefers to live. It’s not the same for everyone. That’s normal. But it is normal for many to like to stay in their heads. They go about, of course, move around, from organ to organ, hither and yon, but they like to return often to their heads." -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 15:28:55 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: location how does it go: Pull down thy vanity, I say pull down the green casque has outdone thy elegance learn from the green world what can be thy place in scrolled invention or true artistry - seems like there's sort of a triangle between the local of the poem, the local of the author, and the local place. a lot of playing with that: "little Rhody", the smallest state in the union, is also the rose island of the poem, and so on. but these things happen with or without conscious planning. the interesting writer makes interesting things "take place"... history is local - local times, local places; THIS place, THIS time - and every place is what it is with respect to various global or universal qualities, so every place leads to other places... with their own unique fate... I wrote a poem set in a place called "Paradise" (a neighborhood near Newport RI), and related it to another neighborhood of Petersburg Russia with the same name. The poem was a take-off on some Mandelstam octets, & dedicated to a Petersburg poet, to whom I had given a toy boat once (boats are important symbols in Petersburg). a few years later I found a picture of Mandelstam taken in Petersburg in 1905. He's holding a toy boat. - Henry G ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 16:52:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry G Subject: sorry Ez The ant's a centaur in his dragon world. Pull down thy vanity, it is not man Made courage, or made order, or made grace. Pull down thy vanity, I say pull down. Learn of the green world what can be thy place In scaled invention or true artistry, Pull down thy vanity, Paquin pull down! The green casque has outdone your elegance. SCALED invention. that's much better. art from "ars" from "to fit together" ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 14:47:53 -0700 Reply-To: Robert Corbett Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Millennium Spellchecks In-Reply-To: <35D497D2.6EFD@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My office's version of word's spell checker doesn't recognize "remediation" as a word. Perhaps appropriate in age of downsized education (i.e. reduced access). But what it suggests in place of "remediation" is a further clue to its microsoft's agenda: "redemption." I guess if you can't get education, it is wise to have god on your side. robert ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 14 Aug 1998 17:08:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Macgregor S Card Subject: Spring-cum-Summer Germ is here MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII *** Listgoers *** The summer issue of _THE GERM: A Journal of Poetic Research_ has arrived. 240 pages (yet strangely, a great deal more intimate than most telephone books), featuring: ) Previously uncollected work of James Schuyler ) The postage-stamp cartographies of artist Joyce Lightbody ) New work from the German poet Elfriede Czurda, translated by Rosmarie Waldrop ) Reviews from Marjorie Perloff (on Mac Wellman), Cole Swensen (on Peter Gizzi), Michelle Delville (on Madeleine Gins) ) New work from Bernadette Mayer, Rod Smith, Lisa Isaacson, Anne Waldman, George Albon, Devin Johnston, Nathaniel Mackey, Elizabeth Robinson, Ray DiPalma, Aaron Shurin, David Trinidad, Lisa Samuels, Anne Tardos, Chris Stroffolino, Albert Mobilio, Gale Nelson, Anne Talvaz, Lewis Warsh, Beth Anderson, Jay Dillemuth, Richard Kostelanetz, Amy England, Brian Schorn, Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino, and others. _______________ Single issues are $6. Subscription rates: $12 for two issues / $20 for four / $28 for six. Make checks payable to "The Germ" and send to either of our addresses: Macgregor Card P.O. Box 2543 Providence, RI 02906 Andrew Maxwell P.O. Box 8501 Santa Cruz, CA 95061 We are also distributed by Bernhard DeBoer and Small Press Distribution. __________________ *** We are always reading submissions--will respond in 6 weeks. Book reviews, prosody, poesy, serial works, graphic musical scores--all is welcome. We try to publish no fewer than 5 pages from each contributor, and no more than 20. Please post to BOTH addresses, as this will ensure the most careful and bipartisan consideration of your work. Thanks! *** Issue #3 (due out mid-fall) already includes: ) Lengthy excerpt from John Ashbery's new work, "Girls on the Run" ) Photo/poetry interplay: Michael Palmer and Ben Watkins. ) New work from Jean Donnelly, John Latta, Linda Vorris and many others. New campaign from the Complaints Department: A response in six weeks! _The Germ_ is published by the Poetic Research Bloc, a nonprofit foundation. Donations are tax-deductible and welcome. Thanks, Macgregor Card & Andrew Maxwell, eds. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 10:10:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Comments: To: toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET writes: >You'd better be damned amusing >to speak of yourself! It's settled then. There is nothing amusing about someone speaking of himself, unless there is the sense that he has no choice but to do so. dwm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:09:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Re: Pound, techne, Jones, Heidegger Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I've been off the list for awhile, so may have missed some discussion. but I'm not sure I follow the distinction you are drawing here - it seems more like apples and oranges: Pound and Jones would assume there is "something soul-like" that they are trying to "catch." I would see the others as being concerned with the poem as instrument or "techne" without considering whether or not there is a "something" there and the poem need not be "machinic" as one can weave with a loom or with one's hands. Related to this there is a new theory that homo sapiens brain development is based on the need to manipulate using the hands to survive. tom bell At 07:36 PM 8/12/98 -0400, you wrote: >I'll chirp in here. > >For both Pound and Jones, I believe 'techne' is a form of weaving over >the surface of something soul-like and essentailly spiritual, a catching >of those shadows: > And the small stars now fall from the olive branch, > Forked shadow falls dark on the terrace > More black than the floating martin (EP, Canto XLVII) > >For Williams, 'techne' is more mahinic, the poem being a machine made of >words: 'techne' becomes 'method'. And this seems a pretty clear line >through Creeley and Olson to Bernstein. I think the notion of poetry or >language as an instrumental extension of the senses useful for making >discoveries otherwise not-detectable seems to me a very American, very >pragmatic take on how or why one writes. > >So as far as this history goes, Pound is on Henry's side; Williams etc >aligns with Dewey etc. > >Don Wellman > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 14:10:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trbell Subject: Metaphoric or metonymic < blind carbon> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think the dichotomy of emotion vs. no emotion, particularly as applied to "self" is unfortunate as it tends to gloss over some crucial (for me, at least) issues. When I draw a black cloud or use "black cloud" in a poem it may have some relation to a feeling that might be called "anger" but this need not be a "self-expression." It's more appropriately seen as a step in the process of discovering a feeling that might turn out to be "anger." Catharsis has been pretty much discarded professionally (from my view), becase self-expression in this sense does _not lead to any change, although the action of expression (the gesture of writing or drawing) does do all kinds of interesting things, including at times finding the "self", if there is such a thing. Unfortunately the lay public has not been apprized of this - ?not a convenient sound bite concept for the media? To return to my 'black cloud" I think the distinction I am trying to express goes back to R.Jakobson's theory of the importance of the metaphor/metonym distinction: a black cloud is like an expression of anger vs. black cloud (.) anger. Todd - I may have gotten carried away and off the track here - don't mean to use you as a straw man. tom bell At 08:17 PM 8/13/98 +0000, Todd Baron wrote: >seeing as the "self" has been a dangerous tool for so much >(terrorism--today--government selves--a poetcis that is still hampered >by "a spontaneous overflow of emotion) and that I feel akin to the >visual arts as much if not more often than so much poetry--and those >visual or plastic arts of--as I sd Duchamp--and such--the focus needs to >be on LANGUAGE not the self that thinks it is representing a sense or >emotion or even thot. I think Charle's work is so much more >interesting--and that of course "I" am not saying that we have no >selves--only that our art needs to extend itself the way that film, >sculpture, painting, assembladge, etc has done . Poetry still comes with >a knot tied in it--for readers--that this is a reading of the poet's >"self". Burroughs said that painting had (1950) far surpassed >writing--and I'm always still very much with that thot in mind. > >it's not deadly to try and remove the self from a discussion of poetry. >As I've said--(it was me) if I want to know something of the poet's >elf--we can do that over coffee--if I want a poem--I'll read! > >TB >(ReMap) > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 23:23:39 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: Metaphoric or metonymic < blind carbon> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit trbell wrote: > > I think the dichotomy of emotion vs. no emotion, particularly as > applied to "self" is unfortunate as it tends to gloss over some > crucial (for me, at least) issues. When I draw a black cloud or > use "black cloud" in a poem it may have some relation to a feeling > that might be called "anger" but this need not be a "self-expression." > It's more appropriately seen as a step in the process of discovering > a feeling that might turn out to be "anger." Catharsis has been pretty > much discarded professionally (from my view), becase self-expression in > this sense does _not lead to any change, although the action of > expression (the gesture of writing or drawing) does do all kinds > of interesting things, including at times finding the "self", if > there is such a thing. Unfortunately the lay public has not been > apprized of this - ?not a convenient sound bite concept for the > media? > > To return to my 'black cloud" I think the distinction I am trying > to express goes back to R.Jakobson's theory of the importance of > the metaphor/metonym distinction: a black cloud is like an > expression of anger vs. black cloud (.) anger. > > Todd - I may have gotten carried away and off the track here - > don't mean to use you as a straw man. > > tom bell > > "ok--I'm straw" but remember also that Jakobson said "literature is organzied violence commited on ordinary speech" --so that yr "cloud" is never yr cloud. (.) TB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 15 Aug 1998 20:40:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marcella Durand Subject: Zinc Bar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tomorrow, Sunday, Aug. 16th Brian Lucas & surprise guest at the Zinc Bar 6:30 pm 90 W. Houston St. btwn Laguardia & Thompson Manhattan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 02:08:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: location location location Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ulp! as New Jersey's unoffical poetic goodwill ambassadcor to the western world, i suppose i should toss in my 2 zlotys on the lidea of location. i guess i might be the only list member who lives about ten miles from where he grew up and have remained in this locale much of my life. Certainly Williams and, soon after, Olson became key mentors and both taught me to look down the block and see what was going on. Location is important to me as both as a writer and a reader. I'm less intersted in local color than affinity for place. After working most of my adult life in NYC, i know work out of home and teach in Jersey and find that the local and location is flooding much of my writing. In the early 90's, I did an anthology of NJ poets for Rutgers University Press that did well and got much publicity. I kept meeting people (some are students) who read the book and got into poetry as it addressed their world and, in a way, demystified writing and the "subject" of writing. Am I an oddity these days? Probably. I read in Seattle a few years back and after an evening of work that invokes the tissue of North Jersey (ranging White Mana Hamburgers to Robert Smithson's Great Notch quarry), a poet came up and said that he found it strange to here someone read about a place he knew so well. "In Seattle", I recall him saying, "Everyone is from someplace else, and here." Joel Lewis "The Jersey Kid" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 17:04:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: kenneth koch on the www Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" saw that kenneth koch is the featured poet on the usually cubed "Poetry Daily" (www.poems.com) "you should read kenneth koch, even if you don't like him" --- Ted Berrigan (1980) joel lewis ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 16 Aug 1998 01:42:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: _the continuity girl_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - _the continuity girl_ Michel Serres, Panoptic Theory, in The Limits of Theory, ed. Thomas M. Kavanagh: "[...] "I shall call poor that which has no object. Myth has no object, nor does theater or politics. "We had few objects in the past, long ago, once upon a time. This state of a humanity with few things has not been erased from our memory. Poor in things, our wealth then consisted of men. We spoke only of them and of their relations. We lived in and on our relations. I call myth poor, then, without objects. I call poor the theater, deprived of things; theories are poor; politics is poor. Our philosophies are poor and miserable. Our human scien- ces are poor. "[...] "The proliferation of objects, the exponential deluge of things, has led us to forget the time of their absence. And that time now seems to us so old! Archaic, antediluvian - yes, mythic. Our myths and our philosophies tell us about that time. Memories of places where lovers were watched in an empty and resonant space, where no one ever thought of eating. Thus philosophies that lack objects (almost all of them), philosophies that derive their val- ues only from the human sciences (almost all of them), are aged and poor. They seem so old to us that we read them as we read myths. One might think they were politics, or theater, or magic. Whenever, by chance, they come upon an object, they change it, by the stroke of a magic wand, into a rela- tion, into language, into representation. "[...]" Yes, Alan, you have almost come to life, almost carrying one or another name across one or another myth, traveling across one or another text, one or another philosophy. _the continuity girl_ holds you in check, just as others are held by you, tight against your thin chest, Nikuko, Jennifer, Julu, and myself included; it is my duty as your continuation to ensure, not the pro- liferation of objects, but of emergences governed, not by an unrequited pov- erty, but by the fullness of the real as language becomes languaging, as magic issues forth its own dominions. Not ever deprived of things or relations, tissues or words which dream them- selves into existence, far beyond the hypertextual - it is _the continuity girl_ whose long fingers write your head into your head, your arms into your arms, legs into your legs - _the continuity girl_ writing Jennifer into Jen- nifer, Julu into Julu, Nikuko into Nikuko, and with a swirl of a skirt and a toss of hair, the invagination of Alan, dare she say it, and the further emergence of a philosophy, and a theater - yes a theater, and a politics, dare she say it, yes, a politics, and a philosophy and a theater and one theory and another theory, and still one more theory, in addition, and still yet a theory once again and once more. Because _the continuity girl_ is everywhere at once, she is nowhere at all; because she garners the script, she speaks from experience; because she reads from memory, she improvises what is the thought that one or another is thinking, Because she ensures that the thought continues into the thought, that the I continues through the I, that one eye sees what the other eye sees, with just the slightest difference - That histories are memorizations and lists and forgotten names, just as Julu and Jennifer and Alan and Nikuko will be forgotten - that histories are mo- ments and slights of hand, just as _the continuity girl_ is a magic powder and a poultice, or a patch and a plaster - just as there are cures for the body ailing, and aches that never go away - Just the memory of _the continuity girl,_ just the hair and fingers, eyes and mouth, hands and legs, arms and feet of _the continuity girl,_ just as the face is an other, face is always already an other, face of _the contin- uity girl,_ circling and the cycling of the script, pagination and collat- ing of the script, as she writes this - Ensuring the one to the one, other to the other, ensuring the one to the other, other to the one - Naming, forgetting, naming - just as there are almost objects coming into the world, almost a pleasure in theory or philosophy; just as there is almost a pleasure in the reading and the writing; just as there is almost a belief in the one and the other, and the value of speech and the meaning among them; just so _the continuity girl_ That there be a striving or a mourning, that there is a mourning one is born into and within, a _mourning already in place_ ... [...] _____________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:24:15 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R I Caddel Subject: Scully's Steps Comments: To: british n irish poets , poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII STEPS, by Maurice Scully, (Reality Street Editions, six pounds fifty, ISBN 1-874400-15-6) plops onto the breakfast table, and is wonderful. It's the penultimate section of Scully's five-volume LIVELIHOOD (of which THE BASIC COLOURS, Pig Press, is also part), and continues preoccupations of earlier sections: observational, personal and economical survival. Scully revises and revises his work so that the parts really do relate to the longer whole, and little echoes run up and down the set each time a new bit appears. The range of forms, as in any of Scully's work, is great, as in exciting, including extended lyric tempered by angry rant, sonnets that aren't, and little nursery rhyme bits: and it coheres ok, as they say, there's a dynamism in the rhythm and the sound which is worth celebrating. Here's a short bit which should reproduce ok in e-form: RESPONSIBILITY Washing her clothes in a rusty old wheelbarrow by the dam by the track under the eucalyptus where the frogs at night fill the vill- age air with/her bright brown eyes and mouth connect in a smile whose radiance and playfulness the fine skin black/I thought I could get to know almost everything once not quite yet feeling the bounce in the net (The Oxford English Dictionary of Spraints, The Pretoria Encyclopaedia of Mortgages, The Concise Cambridge Political), when arcane thinking clicks in its conduit. Tap: "an artist is _never_ poor." Swallow that. __________________ RC ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:25:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: many queries In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if anyone has up-to-date e-mail and/or snail mail addresses for the following folks, please let me know what they are thanks in advance: Alvin Aubert Amiri Baraka Paul Beatty Bruce Cheney Andrei Codrescu Wanda Coleman Conyus Stephen Cope Gregory Corso Pierre Delattre Justin Desmangles Diane DiPrima Brent Edwards Steve Evans Erika Hunt Roderick Iverson Darius James Ted Joans Pierre Joris Philip Lamantia Clarence Major Devorah Major Reginald Major Kaye McDonough E. Ethelbert Miller Aldon Nielsen Claude P=E9lieu Ronald Radano Ishmael Reed =46ranklin Rosemont A. B. Spelman Jacqueline Starer Cecil Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 07:28:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: call for papers/Kaufman In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" please distribute this as widely as possible, thanks all CALL FOR PAPERS for a special issue of Callaloo devoted to the poet BOB KAUFMAN Creative work or scholarly essays, personal reminiscences, tributes, work placing Kaufman's work in the various contexts in which he wrote and lived. Essays that engage the multi-dimensionality of Kaufman's significance are especially welcome, as are poems and other imaginative work that evince his influence implicitly or explicitly. We are concerned to present the fullest possible profile and the "thickest" description of the poet, the work, and the historical/cultural milieu in which he participated, as well as presenting some of the ways in which his work and example have influenced contemporary writers and writing; thus a diversity of approaches (interdisciplinary, comparative, theoretical, historical) is particularly encouraged. Manuscripts up to 30 typewritten, double-spaced pages should follow the latest edition of The MLA Style Manual and should be sent to Special Issue Editor: Maria Damon English Department 207 Lind Hall 207 Church Street SE University of Minnesota Minneapolis MN 55455-0134 Deadline for creative work is June 1, 1999. Deadline for scholarly work is September 1, 1999. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:47:17 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Trevor Joyce Subject: Re: Scully's Steps Comments: To: R I Caddel , british n irish poets , poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >STEPS, by Maurice Scully, (Reality Street Editions, six pounds fifty, ISBN >1-874400-15-6) plops onto the breakfast table, and is wonderful. It's the >penultimate section of Scully's five-volume LIVELIHOOD (of which THE BASIC >COLOURS, Pig Press, is also part), and continues preoccupations of earlier >sections: observational, personal and economical survival. Scully revises >and revises his work so that the parts really do relate to the longer >whole, and little echoes run up and down the set each time a new bit >appears. The range of forms, as in any of Scully's work, is great, as in >exciting, including extended lyric tempered by angry rant, sonnets that >aren't, and little nursery rhyme bits: and it coheres ok, as they say, >there's a dynamism in the rhythm and the sound which is worth celebrating. I'll second this, with knobs on, as my mother used to say. It's beautiful stuff, delicately worked at the level of the miniature, and totally convincing in its broad sweep. The sooner the whole Livelihood set sees the light together, the better, but this'll do to be getting on with. ************************************************************************** Trevor Joyce Apple Cork IS&T Phone : +353-21-284405 EMail : joyce2@euro.apple.com ************************************************************************** ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:43:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: oogling MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Safdie Joseph wrote: > I like your translation quite a bit (and Michaux, and Ted's appropriation > of Michaux). I find Todd Baron to be sloppy and stupid, though. By the way,I > think that one of the reasons some of us had problems with the original > project of langpo was the tendency of its founders to live exclusively in > their heads. > Thanks. I am a relatively recent (2 years ago?) convert to The Cult of Ted as Andrew Schelling once called it. I did my undergraduate work in music performance and had never read Berrigan before I came to Naropa! (now that's confessional) I feel sorry for Todd Baron -- he seems puppy-like in his desires, probably lonely. He probably means well, though that's hardly an excuse. Living in one's head... well, as in many cases, it's fine if one does it superbly. (I think Michaux pulls it off -- but his is far from a self-centered or confessional "I.") > Which brings me to ogling. I looked it up in my Skeats and the etymology is > from Dutch, of all places -- wait'll you hear this -- from _oogen_, "to cast > sheepes eyes upon one" -- cf. Low German (low, of course!)_oegen_ to look > at! Cognate with "eye" > "sheepes eyes"?! for some reason this reminds me of a phrase my sister and I used in our childhood -- googly babies (those were the unpleasantly noisy and wet ones) > So EYE thank you for your comment about same. I love to look at women, > actually, but mostly, I love to look. Didn't Wallace Stevens write a poem > called "The Pleasures of Merely Seeing"? If he didn't he should have. > I had an interesting (to me at least) exchange once with Randy Roark (do you know him?) -- I said a reading Cole Swensen gave was sexy, and he said he agreed but felt he couldn't make a comment like that without being perceived as sexist. Now, I consider myself feminist, and this seems wrong. Harassment lines get drawn all over the place... and having been sexually harassed before, I have strong feelings about it. But there's plenty that's still _not_ harassment. It's too fascist to say that men can't talk about x, y, or z. Sometimes I don't think I can stand to live another minute in a Puritan country such as this one.If people call everything remotely titillating harassment, it's belittling to real cases. > . How much > of that translation have you done? > I probably have 30 pages left (guesstimate). Plus Anselm's commentary, corrections, suggestions, etc. He's really the co-translator, and without everything he's put in, the work would be mediocre at best. It's quite an honor (and a blast) to work with him. With Michaux, sometimes I feel an eerie mind-meld sort of connection. This may sound grim, but I enjoy the frankness with which he examines the undersides of the mind. I've spent some time in the nether regions of depression, and find that true horror is pretending that the black holes (or heffalump traps as I used to refer to them) aren't there. Drinking too much coffee in the library (after drinking too much beer on Saturday), Laura -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 12:46:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: ooooops MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ooops. sorry. guilty of imprecision... -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 22:43:20 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laura E. Wright wrote: > > Safdie Joseph wrote: > > > I like your translation quite a bit (and Michaux, and Ted's appropriation > > of Michaux). I find Todd Baron to be sloppy and stupid, though. By the way,I > > think that one of the reasons some of us had problems with the original > > project of langpo was the tendency of its founders to live exclusively in > > their heads. > > > > > > I feel sorry for Todd Baron -- he seems puppy-like in his desires, probably > lonely. He probably means well, though that's hardly an excuse. > > Living in one's head... well, as in many cases, it's fine if one does it > superbly. (I think Michaux pulls it off -- but his is far from a self-centered > or confessional "I.") > > Laura > -- > Laura Wright > Library Assistant > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > Boulder, CO 80302 > (303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * > " OK--enough. FIRST --these two remarks have nothing to do with this list. I have NO idea what they are even responding to--and they sure as hell sound like attacks on a "self" (mine). I seek to ONLY discuss poetics on this list--and these two statements are hopefully not "poetics". SECOND: IF you two are responding to my rejection of a poetics that centers itself around a single "I"--then it's seemingly fitting that my argument finds voice in two "I" responses--with so very little specificity in them. YIKES. Lay off! Todd Baron (NOT lonely--and no dog...) ps: A friend states that e-mail is too quick--yr foot falls in yr mouth. I suggest we often READ what we write before we send it!) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 13:36:43 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity Comments: To: toddbaron In-Reply-To: <35D8B208.7ECC@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, toddbaron wrote: > Laura E. Wright wrote: > > > > Safdie Joseph wrote: > > > > > I like your translation quite a bit (and Michaux, and Ted's appropriation > > > of Michaux). I find Todd Baron to be sloppy and stupid, though. By the way,I > > > think that one of the reasons some of us had problems with the original > > > project of langpo was the tendency of its founders to live exclusively in > > > their heads. > > > > > > > > > > > I feel sorry for Todd Baron -- he seems puppy-like in his desires, probably > > lonely. He probably means well, though that's hardly an excuse. > > > > Living in one's head... well, as in many cases, it's fine if one does it > > superbly. (I think Michaux pulls it off -- but his is far from a self-centered > > or confessional "I.") > > > > Laura > > -- > > Laura Wright > > Library Assistant > > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute > > 2130 Arapahoe Ave > > Boulder, CO 80302 > > (303) 546-3547 > > * * * * * * > > " > > OK--enough. FIRST --these two remarks have nothing to do with this list. > I have NO idea what they are even responding to--and they sure as hell > sound like attacks on a "self" (mine). I seek to ONLY discuss poetics on > this list--and these two statements are hopefully not "poetics". > > SECOND: IF you two are responding to my rejection of a poetics that > centers itself around a single "I"--then it's seemingly fitting that my > argument finds voice in two "I" responses--with so very little > specificity in them. > > YIKES. Lay off! > > Todd Baron > > (NOT lonely--and no dog...) > > ps: A friend states that e-mail is too quick--yr foot falls in yr mouth. > I suggest we often READ what we write before we send it!) > todd-- yeah, looks like these backchanneling attempts get confused sometimes- sad thing about librarians isnt it, always confusing public, private, when everyone already knows you (the universal YOU)should just keep QUIET!!! love to all, in disgust rd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 16:05:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Simon DeDeo Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII [A few subscription problems -- this e-mail is a little out of date, since the location thread was a while (a few days?) ago, but 'thought it might be of interest.] I think my position is similar to Tom's on this one. I grew to a consciousness of writing when I lived in New Hampshire, where the most interesting things happen when (speaking broadly, as always) man collides with his location in nature and society. Given the state of much of our developed land -- essentially interchangable units arrayed in mutating sequence -- I wonder if the attention to location is disappearing, or, rather, appearing as an atavism. Feeling as if I was engaging in some unconscious nostalgia at the time, I look back at the "postitioned" work I did then and wonder how much is worthwhile. I remember looking at Plath's Ariel in a seminar, and hearing someone make the comment that the first few stanzas are Plath still trying to write "vivid description" (a commen that was supposed to be critical), and only reaching a more "metaphysical" plain/plane in the later lines; it's an interesting comment, one that I was resistant to at the time, and I wonder if its true that a poem must eventually escape position in such a direct manner. Pound's _Cantos_, in passing, seem to me to be an amazing way to unite a postmodern notion of the decay of a Thoreau-like "location" with a feeling of position, of some kind of connection to a particular physical reality. Moving from the theoretical to the practical act of writing and creation of a poetic "landscape" in the most general sense, I think where one is at a particular time can have an enormous positive effect on the work itself. When I write, what emerges after revision is a space that in many ways maps almost topologically to an experience of a place, mirroring in some way my inhabitation of it, and the accidents of coming to know it. Below, for anyone who's made it this far, is a draft of a work drawn from that little blue sign in Harvard Square that marks Anne Bradstreet's residence, with thanks to John Berryman. -- Simon http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu Entering the site of the former residence of Anne Bradstreet Varnish in layers laid on the hardwood floor. In empty rooms, where barefoot one might feel the anonymous grit warm in years of occupation, I charade my guide, keeping two steps behind with meditations on the brass doorknobs and the crumbled paint in a pile by the door. I have made numerous telephone calls, perjured and damned myself to spend a quarter hour -- how the hour ticks, now -- in observation. Agitated, my guide drops the stormwindow and enquires into my deeper motives. The distance to the street is immense. We exchange cards, mine as fradulent as Al Capone's, and I linger on the stair awkward as the local tough thieving roses for the virgin in the mansion in the city on the hill. Vain, vain, vanity all. But the marble here is cold. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 17:26:22 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "P.Standard Schaefer" Subject: CONS CONFERENCE Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit THE 2ND ANNUAL CONFERENCE OF THE COLLEGE OF NEGLECTED SCIENCE celebrating "Generation" and the publication of Ribot 6 (1998) international poets and visual artists over 60, under 30. Friday-Sunday, October 30-November 1, 1998, Otis College of Art & Design, Los Angeles, featuring publication party, symposia & a masked ball. More details forthcoming. Contact: Paul Vangelisti tel. 323 662-4666 (home) 310-665-6920 (work) e-mail: pvangel@earthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:28:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" One of this list's notorious angels once rather notoriously said: First thought best thought. I say, Those who live by the first thought will die by the first thought [to paraphrase another rather notorious angel]. George Thompson >On Mon, 17 Aug 1998, toddbaron wrote: > >> Laura E. Wright wrote: >> > >> > Safdie Joseph wrote: >> > >> > > I like your translation quite a bit (and Michaux, and Ted's >>appropriation >> > > of Michaux). I find Todd Baron to be sloppy and stupid, though. By >>the way,I >> > > think that one of the reasons some of us had problems with the original >> > > project of langpo was the tendency of its founders to live exclusively in >> > > their heads. >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > I feel sorry for Todd Baron -- he seems puppy-like in his desires, probably >> > lonely. He probably means well, though that's hardly an excuse. >> > >> > Living in one's head... well, as in many cases, it's fine if one does it >> > superbly. (I think Michaux pulls it off -- but his is far from a >>self-centered >> > or confessional "I.") >> > >> > Laura >> > -- >> > Laura Wright >> > Library Assistant >> > Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute >> > 2130 Arapahoe Ave >> > Boulder, CO 80302 >> > (303) 546-3547 >> > * * * * * * >> > " >> >> OK--enough. FIRST --these two remarks have nothing to do with this list. >> I have NO idea what they are even responding to--and they sure as hell >> sound like attacks on a "self" (mine). I seek to ONLY discuss poetics on >> this list--and these two statements are hopefully not "poetics". >> >> SECOND: IF you two are responding to my rejection of a poetics that >> centers itself around a single "I"--then it's seemingly fitting that my >> argument finds voice in two "I" responses--with so very little >> specificity in them. >> >> YIKES. Lay off! >> >> Todd Baron >> >> (NOT lonely--and no dog...) >> >> ps: A friend states that e-mail is too quick--yr foot falls in yr mouth. >> I suggest we often READ what we write before we send it!) >> > >todd-- >yeah, looks like these backchanneling attempts get confused sometimes- >sad thing about librarians isnt it, always confusing public, private, >when everyone already knows you (the universal YOU)should just keep >QUIET!!! > >love to all, in disgust > >rd ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:41:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: location location location In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Back to the locus classicus, it's good to remember that when Olson positioned himself as Maximus "of Gloucester" and touted the necessity of the local he was making a decision to swim counter to the current. Prior to then he had been plenty peripatetic, and he certainly continued to be aware of the fragility of "polis." His polis, in fact, had become something of a fiction, even in Gloucester--his reference is to the portuguese fishermen and working-class yankees, who certainly made up the world of Fort Square, and if you only looked seaward I suppose you could screen out the commuter town that the rest of Gloucester was morphing into. What would he have made of the Moonies taking over the canneries? But his stance--his "stand"--involved an active protest, including, for instance, letters to the editor--it was a political action--and poems like "In the face of a Chinese View of the City." If you stand by the seaward window of Olson's apartment you see the world as imagined in Maximus, from the local, even to the temporally local as witnessed by the weather notations Olson scrawled on the window frame, to the houses of the fishermen, the harbor to the left and the sweep of the beach that fronts the town to the right. And straight out, beyond all that, the bay open to the Atlantic beyond the two wooded arms that enclose it, and outward to the world and the cosmos. It really is an extraordinary, and empowering, view. If you look out the door towards town you see the old yankee spires through a filter of fish-racks. Remember the maps that fronted the three big volumes of Maximus, and the maps sketched out by the position of words on the page in some of the poems, and "I come back to the geography of it,/the land falling off to the left" etc. Those maps, be it noted, are also maps of past configurations, so that the reach outward from that window is four dimensional. So, the local as a place to stand, to take strength from, perhaps, where one's protest has a chance of being heeded, and a place to look out from, in all the directions. Check out Letter 5, Olson's savaging of Ferrini, which I think draws the issues. "...winds, Ferrini,/which are never 4, which have their grave dangers (as writing does)/just because weather/is very precise to/the quarter it comes from (as writing is,/if it is as good as" At 04:05 PM 8/17/98 -0400, you wrote: >[A few subscription problems -- this e-mail is a little out of date, since >the location thread was a while (a few days?) ago, but 'thought it might >be of interest.] > >I think my position is similar to Tom's on this one. I grew to a >consciousness of writing when I lived in New Hampshire, where the most >interesting things happen when (speaking broadly, as always) man collides >with his location in nature and society. Given the state of much of our >developed land -- essentially interchangable units arrayed in mutating >sequence -- I wonder if the attention to location is disappearing, or, >rather, appearing as an atavism. Feeling as if I was engaging in some >unconscious nostalgia at the time, I look back at the "postitioned" work I >did then and wonder how much is worthwhile. I remember looking at Plath's >Ariel in a seminar, and hearing someone make the comment that the first >few stanzas are Plath still trying to write "vivid description" (a commen >that was supposed to be critical), and only reaching a more "metaphysical" >plain/plane in the later lines; it's an interesting comment, one that I >was resistant to at the time, and I wonder if its true that a poem must >eventually escape position in such a direct manner. > >Pound's _Cantos_, in passing, seem to me to be an amazing way to unite a >postmodern notion of the decay of a Thoreau-like "location" with a feeling >of position, of some kind of connection to a particular physical reality. > >Moving from the theoretical to the practical act of writing and creation >of a poetic "landscape" in the most general sense, I think where one is at >a particular time can have an enormous positive effect on the work itself. >When I write, what emerges after revision is a space that in many ways >maps almost topologically to an experience of a place, mirroring in some >way my inhabitation of it, and the accidents of coming to know it. > >Below, for anyone who's made it this far, is a draft of a work drawn from >that little blue sign in Harvard Square that marks Anne Bradstreet's >residence, with thanks to John Berryman. > >-- Simon > >http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html >sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu > > > >Entering the site of the former residence of Anne Bradstreet > >Varnish in layers laid on the hardwood floor. >In empty rooms, where barefoot one might feel >the anonymous grit warm in years of occupation, >I charade my guide, keeping two steps behind >with meditations on the brass doorknobs >and the crumbled paint in a pile by the door. > >I have made numerous telephone calls, perjured >and damned myself to spend a quarter hour -- >how the hour ticks, now -- in observation. >Agitated, my guide drops the stormwindow >and enquires into my deeper motives. >The distance to the street is immense. > >We exchange cards, mine as fradulent >as Al Capone's, and I linger on the stair >awkward as the local tough thieving >roses for the virgin in the mansion in >the city on the hill. Vain, vain, vanity >all. But the marble here is cold. > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:44:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: oogling In-Reply-To: <35D879DB.E7315A7A@naropa.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Looking sheep-eyes at someone is still a current expression, or have I become archaic? At 12:43 PM 8/17/98 -0600, you wrote: >Safdie Joseph wrote: > >> I like your translation quite a bit (and Michaux, and Ted's appropriation >> of Michaux). I find Todd Baron to be sloppy and stupid, though. By the way,I >> think that one of the reasons some of us had problems with the original >> project of langpo was the tendency of its founders to live exclusively in >> their heads. >> > >Thanks. I am a relatively recent (2 years ago?) convert to The Cult of Ted as >Andrew Schelling once called it. I did my undergraduate work in music >performance and had never read Berrigan before I came to Naropa! (now that's >confessional) > >I feel sorry for Todd Baron -- he seems puppy-like in his desires, probably >lonely. He probably means well, though that's hardly an excuse. > >Living in one's head... well, as in many cases, it's fine if one does it >superbly. (I think Michaux pulls it off -- but his is far from a self-centered >or confessional "I.") > >> Which brings me to ogling. I looked it up in my Skeats and the etymology is >> from Dutch, of all places -- wait'll you hear this -- from _oogen_, "to cast >> sheepes eyes upon one" -- cf. Low German (low, of course!)_oegen_ to look >> at! Cognate with "eye" >> > >"sheepes eyes"?! for some reason this reminds me of a phrase my sister and I >used in our childhood -- googly babies (those were the unpleasantly noisy and >wet ones) > >> So EYE thank you for your comment about same. I love to look at women, >> actually, but mostly, I love to look. Didn't Wallace Stevens write a poem >> called "The Pleasures of Merely Seeing"? If he didn't he should have. >> > >I had an interesting (to me at least) exchange once with Randy Roark (do you >know him?) -- I said a reading Cole Swensen gave was sexy, and he said he agreed >but felt he couldn't make a comment like that without being perceived as sexist. >Now, I consider myself feminist, and this seems wrong. Harassment lines get >drawn all over the place... and having been sexually harassed before, I have >strong feelings about it. But there's plenty that's still _not_ harassment. >It's too fascist to say that men can't talk about x, y, or z. Sometimes I don't >think I can stand to live another minute in a Puritan country such as this >one.If people call everything remotely titillating harassment, it's belittling >to real cases. > >> . How much >> of that translation have you done? >> > >I probably have 30 pages left (guesstimate). Plus Anselm's commentary, >corrections, suggestions, etc. He's really the co-translator, and without >everything he's put in, the work would be mediocre at best. It's quite an honor >(and a blast) to work with him. With Michaux, sometimes I feel an eerie >mind-meld sort of connection. This may sound grim, but I enjoy the frankness >with which he examines the undersides of the mind. I've spent some time in the >nether regions of depression, and find that true horror is pretending that the >black holes (or heffalump traps as I used to refer to them) aren't there. > >Drinking too much coffee in the library >(after drinking too much beer on Saturday), >Laura >-- >Laura Wright >Library Assistant >Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute >2130 Arapahoe Ave >Boulder, CO 80302 >(303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * >"All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * >"It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:58:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: printing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980817184117.00924e00@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark, We were wrong about my printing problem today. It wasn't a memory problem at all. Somehow, the .eps file for the bar code on the book cover was either corrupted, or not properly linked in some way. When I went back to the original of that file, saved it again, making sure I included the fonts with it, and loaded the "new" file into my PageMaker file, it worked fine. charles chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 18:58:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: printing In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980817185821.007c5390@theriver.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Glad to hear it. A pleasure to be wrong. Is the wisdom of computers the memory of past mistakes? Like learning about cars from what goes wrong? (Or kids for that matter?) At 06:58 PM 8/17/98 -0700, you wrote: >Mark, > >We were wrong about my printing problem today. It wasn't a memory problem >at all. Somehow, the .eps file for the bar code on the book cover was >either corrupted, or not properly linked in some way. When I went back to >the original of that file, saved it again, making sure I included the fonts >with it, and loaded the "new" file into my PageMaker file, it worked fine. > > >charles >chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing >chax@theriver.com >http://alexwritdespub.com/chax >520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 17 Aug 1998 19:48:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: charles alexander Subject: sorry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" sorry for sending a private message to Mark Weiss to the list. It happens sometimes, but it is always rather embarrassing. charles chax press : alexander writing/design/publishing chax@theriver.com http://alexwritdespub.com/chax 520 620 1626 (phone) 520 620 1636 (fax) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 00:06:25 -0400 Reply-To: soaring@ma.ultranet.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Donald Wellman Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am deeply impressed by a loving and intimate knowledge in Mark's posting to this thread, describing the view from Olson's windows. And yet it seems the local is always made to serve something "other" isn't it? always a reification of some desire, defiantly even never itself or we would not have that need for its solidities compounded of distances. Mark wrote: "So, the local as a place to stand, to take strength from, perhaps, where one's protest has a chance of being heeded, and a place to look out from, in all the directions." There is such a difference between the "local" as a value and "local knowledge" that can be quite blinding. To get back to Todd, if you look out "your" window at night (as Olson who" inverted night and day" must often have done) "you" can see "your" face in it as well as the stars, light pollution permitting. Don Wellman ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:35:43 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: location Mark Weiss & Don Wellman sound both right on this one. "Where we are" is something of a mystery, to put it mildly, maps or no maps; but should probably beware of any particular formulas (ie. the local is the key, or, the local stands for some other desire) - because "the local" primarily stands for an inexaustible fulness that is really beyond telling, though we keep trying - maybe Keats came pretty close - in simple formula fashion - "the poetry of earth is never dead" - though I'm sure he would agree that's not the "end" of the story - - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 08:24:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) Join SAWSJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Poetics folks: The below appeal comes from one of the most interesting and promising new organizations the American left has seen in some time. Please read! Kent ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 13:51:24 -0400 From: SAWSJ Subject: Join SAWSJ To: SAWSJ Can we persuade you to join Scholars, Artists, and Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ)? You are on our email list; you may even think you are a member, but according to our records you aren't -- yet. We've sponsored the Columbia University teach-in and thirty others, mobilized support for the UPS and GM strikes, and helped raise the issue of the right to organize. With your support, and that of others, we can do much more. The primary aim of SAWSJ is to strengthen the relationship between the labor movement and its allies in the academic and cultural communities. Working together we can help to shape the terms of political debate, contest corporate dominance of politics and culture, and foster the growth of a vibrant, progressive, multicultural working-class movement, one that speaks to issues of race, gender, and sexual orientation. If you share these goals, PLEASE JOIN. A membership form follows this message; it lists some of the activist groups we are working to build. We hope you'll join one or more of these, and together we will fight against sweatshops and for the right to organize, against workfare and for a more inclusive university. Together we can create our own media network to write op-eds and letters to the editor so that our views get attention equal to those of the right (okay, maybe that won't happen next week, but ...). If you join we'll send you a letter describing these projects, as well as how to form a chapter or become a part of our steering committee. The labor movement knows that standing alone it can't win the right to organize, change the image of unions, or win political victories. Academics and cultural workers know that unless we connect with a larger movement, our voice will not be heard and we will miss the grounding and connections that can enrich our vision. John Sweeney and the AFL-CIO have strongly supported SAWSJ -- participating actively in the teach-in movement, speaking at our founding meetings, and assigning staff to work closely with us. At the same time, they have been clear that we are and should be an independent organization; President Sweeney went out of his way to indicate he is sure we will sometimes disagree, and that such disagreements are healthy and can be productive. Why join, rather than just continuing to be a free rider on our email list? One obvious answer: we need the money to keep up our activities; without members we can't continue. But even more, we need your commitment. You'll receive our members-only mailings, and soon will have the option of joining our members- only listserv. We want your dues and an indication of your commitment; we hope you'll want to do more and will join one of our working groups. Together we can work to realize our mutual goals. The Coordinating Committee of Scholars, Artists, and Writers for Social Justice (Dan Clawson, Michael Denning, Dorothy Fennell, Steve Fraser, Adam Green, Margaret Levi, Jenny Stevens, and Jamal Watson) -------------- Scholars, Artists, and Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ) The aim of SAWSJ is to assist in reshaping the nation's political culture and fostering the growth of a vibrant, progressive, multicultural working-class movement; in shaping the terms of political debate and contesting corporate dominance of politics and culture; in restoring the mutually empowering relationship between the labor movement and its allies in the academic and cultural communities. If you share these goals, PLEASE JOIN. Please print this form, fill it out, and send it in; or complete it via e-mail, and snail mail us a check.) Name: Email: Home Phone: ( ) Work Phone: ( ) Address: City: State: Zip: Organizational Affiliations University (if any): Work: Union (if any): Political and Cultural Groups: _____ Yes, I want to become a SAWSJ member. Dues - check one: ____ $10 student/low income ____ $25 others with incomes below $40,000 ____ $40 for those with incomes of $40,000 or above Make checks payable to SAWSJ and mail to: SAWSJ c/o Labor Relations and Research Center University of Massachusetts 125 Draper Hall Box 32020 Amherst, MA 01003 EMAIL LIST INFO -- SAWSJ maintains an informational email list. Once or at most twice a week, we send out news and information, collected from many sources, about labor and social justice issues. Please check one: _____ I am already on the list. _____ I am not on the list. Please add my e-mail _____ Please do not add my e-mail address to the list. SAWSJ ACTIVITIES - We have underway, or are working at creating, both local chapters and networks focused on particular issues. Please indicate if you'd be interested in working on one or more of the following. Check as many as you like; if you check an item, someone will be in touch with you about working on the project: ___ Joining or forming a local chapter ___ Organizing a teach-in in your area ___ Big chill - fighting attacks on labor researchers ___ Anti-sweatshop ___ Right to organize ___ Workfare-welfare ___ On-campus organizing ___ Race and campus access ___ McJobs - part-time and contingent work issues ___ Op-ed and media projects - building a left network ___ Directories - of experts, of student groups ___ Internal SAWSJ - membership, fundraising, newsletter ___ Teamster Reform ___ YOUR issue - what else would you like to work on? Please specify: -------------- Scholars, Artists and Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ) Email: SAWSJ@LRRC.UMASS.EDU Phone: (413) 545-3541 Fax: (413) 545-0110 Internet: www.sage.edu/html/SAWSJ Address: SAWSJ c/o Labor Relations and Research Center University of Massachusetts Amherst 125 Draper Hall, Box 32020 Amherst, MA 01003 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 09:57:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: location Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Diane DiPrima once told the story of visiting Olson in that apartment, listening to him for hours as he sat there in a rumpled bed pointing frequently out the window as he talked, rapidly of course,and also pointing, without ever looking, at a map of Gloucester that was pinned up on the wall over his bed. She marvelled at the fact that that map, which must have been there for years, had become completely bleached out by the light and had become completely illegible. Tells you where Olson's map really was. GT >Mark Weiss & Don Wellman sound both right on this one. "Where we are" is >something of a mystery, to put it mildly, maps or no maps; but should probably >beware of any particular formulas (ie. the local is the key, or, >the local stands for some other desire) - because >"the local" primarily stands for an inexaustible fulness that is >really beyond telling, though we keep trying - >maybe Keats came pretty close - in simple formula fashion - > >"the poetry of earth is never dead" > >- though I'm sure he would agree that's not the "end" of the story - > >- Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 07:07:01 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Reading in Chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Friends: I'll be in Chicago on November 19, 1998, to read at the Art Institute, and I'm searching for other venues at which to read while I'm in town. Anyone with suggestions please back channel. I'd be grateful. Mark Salerno ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:07:37 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: (Fwd) Join SAWSJ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Scholars, Artists and Writers for Social Justice (SAWSJ) > > Email: SAWSJ@LRRC.UMASS.EDU > Phone: (413) 545-3541 Fax: (413) 545-0110 > SAWSJ > c/o Labor Relations and Research Center > University of Massachusetts Amherst > 125 Draper Hall, Box 32020 > Amherst, MA 01003 thank-you for forwarding this very imp. chance to participate. I encourage others to join. TB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:10:15 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit speaking of Diane D P. --does anyone have a current address for her--is she still in SF. (I studied with her and simply want to send ReMap)-- thanks--pls do this "privately" Todd Baron ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:13:23 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit this is simply a beautiful way to wake this a.m. yr writing--the many Olson's I find here--all the Location--from here (LA) a place where bulldozers create location but "dig" nothing--(outsiode the window--besides the reflection of a face--the GTE warehouse, tomatoes, the street, somewhere off--the sea--the same constant--the body--of water--I have no map of). thanks so much for this "seaward window" Todd Baron (ReMap) I guess ReMap should do a LOCATION issue! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 12:14:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Feeling sorry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I feel sorry for people who dis poets, groups of poets etccc.. And then post said attacks, to 650 people, when they intended them to be private. Gosh, such people seem to be "living inside their heads." I feel sorry for people who are frightened by poetries outside the mainstream (such people seem to be "living insdie their heads."). Vladimir Gerturde Lenin (ah! Lenine! quel chanteur!) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:23:10 -0400 Reply-To: alphavil@ix.netcom.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" Organization: Alphaville Subject: Re: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Mark Weiss for this beautiful evocation of Olson's Gloucester.---Carlo Parcelli > Back to the locus classicus, it's good to remember that when Olson > positioned himself as Maximus "of Gloucester" and touted the necessity of > the local he was making a decision to swim counter to the current. Prior to > then he had been plenty peripatetic, and he certainly continued to be aware > of the fragility of "polis." His polis, in fact, had become something of a > fiction, even in Gloucester--his reference is to the portuguese fishermen > and working-class yankees, who certainly made up the world of Fort Square, > and if you only looked seaward I suppose you could screen out the commuter > town that the rest of Gloucester was morphing into. What would he have made > of the Moonies taking over the canneries? But his stance--his > "stand"--involved an active protest, including, for instance, letters to > the editor--it was a political action--and poems like "In the face of a > Chinese View of the City." > > If you stand by the seaward window of Olson's apartment you see the world > as imagined in Maximus, from the local, even to the temporally local as > witnessed by the weather notations Olson scrawled on the window frame, to > the houses of the fishermen, the harbor to the left and the sweep of the > beach that fronts the town to the right. And straight out, beyond all that, > the bay open to the Atlantic beyond the two wooded arms that enclose it, > and outward to the world and the cosmos. It really is an extraordinary, and > empowering, view. If you look out the door towards town you see the old > yankee spires through a filter of fish-racks. Remember the maps that > fronted the three big volumes of Maximus, and the maps sketched out by the > position of words on the page in some of the poems, and "I come back to the > geography of it,/the land falling off to the left" etc. Those maps, be it > noted, are also maps of past configurations, so that the reach outward from > that window is four dimensional. > > So, the local as a place to stand, to take strength from, perhaps, where > one's protest has a chance of being heeded, and a place to look out from, > in all the directions. Check out Letter 5, Olson's savaging of Ferrini, > which I think draws the issues. "...winds, Ferrini,/which are never 4, > which have their grave dangers (as writing does)/just because weather/is > very precise to/the quarter it comes from (as writing is,/if it is as good as" > > At 04:05 PM 8/17/98 -0400, you wrote: > >[A few subscription problems -- this e-mail is a little out of date, since > >the location thread was a while (a few days?) ago, but 'thought it might > >be of interest.] > > > >I think my position is similar to Tom's on this one. I grew to a > >consciousness of writing when I lived in New Hampshire, where the most > >interesting things happen when (speaking broadly, as always) man collides > >with his location in nature and society. Given the state of much of our > >developed land -- essentially interchangable units arrayed in mutating > >sequence -- I wonder if the attention to location is disappearing, or, > >rather, appearing as an atavism. Feeling as if I was engaging in some > >unconscious nostalgia at the time, I look back at the "postitioned" work I > >did then and wonder how much is worthwhile. I remember looking at Plath's > >Ariel in a seminar, and hearing someone make the comment that the first > >few stanzas are Plath still trying to write "vivid description" (a commen > >that was supposed to be critical), and only reaching a more "metaphysical" > >plain/plane in the later lines; it's an interesting comment, one that I > >was resistant to at the time, and I wonder if its true that a poem must > >eventually escape position in such a direct manner. > > > >Pound's _Cantos_, in passing, seem to me to be an amazing way to unite a > >postmodern notion of the decay of a Thoreau-like "location" with a feeling > >of position, of some kind of connection to a particular physical reality. > > > >Moving from the theoretical to the practical act of writing and creation > >of a poetic "landscape" in the most general sense, I think where one is at > >a particular time can have an enormous positive effect on the work itself. > >When I write, what emerges after revision is a space that in many ways > >maps almost topologically to an experience of a place, mirroring in some > >way my inhabitation of it, and the accidents of coming to know it. > > > >Below, for anyone who's made it this far, is a draft of a work drawn from > >that little blue sign in Harvard Square that marks Anne Bradstreet's > >residence, with thanks to John Berryman. > > > >-- Simon > > > >http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~sdedeo/localpapers.html > >sdedeo@fas.harvard.edu > > > > > > > >Entering the site of the former residence of Anne Bradstreet > > > >Varnish in layers laid on the hardwood floor. > >In empty rooms, where barefoot one might feel > >the anonymous grit warm in years of occupation, > >I charade my guide, keeping two steps behind > >with meditations on the brass doorknobs > >and the crumbled paint in a pile by the door. > > > >I have made numerous telephone calls, perjured > >and damned myself to spend a quarter hour -- > >how the hour ticks, now -- in observation. > >Agitated, my guide drops the stormwindow > >and enquires into my deeper motives. > >The distance to the street is immense. > > > >We exchange cards, mine as fradulent > >as Al Capone's, and I linger on the stair > >awkward as the local tough thieving > >roses for the virgin in the mansion in > >the city on the hill. Vain, vain, vanity > >all. But the marble here is cold. > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:57:59 -0400 Reply-To: joris@csc.albany.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: single query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I need to quickly get in touch with Lisa Jarnot. Does anyone have a current phone # or email? Is she in Colorado right now? B.C. is best -- thanks -- Pierre -- ========================================= pierre joris 6 madison place albany ny 12202 tel: (518) 426 0433 fax: (518) 426 3722 email:joris@cnsunix.albany.edu http://www.albany.edu/~joris/ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- “I take place out there” -- Robert Duncan ========================================== ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:23:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To Todd Baron: Remember the way you dissed and dismissed Alan Sondheim's work a few months back? You say in your recent post, "I seek to ONLY discuss poetics on this list..." but back then you wrote, "I have long ago dismissed a poetics that engages the language in a self-ish way--that is--where one tries to force the language into an "experimental" form--for the sake of being that thing others would call "experimental" --the piece I responded to wasn't doing anything--Why discuss it, then--if, in my mind--I already have"? It seems your chickens are roosting quite nicely. PB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 13:52:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Not yet/already MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Our language does not consist of a stock set of sentences, but sometimes we behave as though it did (Xavier Rubert de Ventos). Against Heidegger's contention that we have not yet begun to think, Wittgenstein: we are already thinking. Phenomology takes us further, rather than closer, to phenomena, just as hermeneutics takes us further from understanding. Do we need someone to explain to us how we understand something that we already understand, how in some sense we understand it because we have already understood it before we even know what its about? As we get older our experience grows while our openness to new experience diminishes: few will try sushi for the first time after the age of 35, or change their taste in music, or get their tongues pierced, according to a recent scientific survey (consequences of this for educational theory). I no longer read the books I review; I look at the index, the table of contents, the footnotes. In the grocery store I am constantly seeing people that look vaguely familiar to me. This is because I saw them three minutes before in another aisle. To be continued... Jonathan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:09:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: stupidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think a distinction is being lost. For Todd to say "I have long ago dismissed a poetics that engages language in a selfish way" is not to attack the person, but the poetics. How is this an ad hominem attack? He didn't say that Alan Sondheim was a pathetic puppy dog, stupid, etc... Or are we so identified with our 'opera' that any attack on our position becomes an attack on our various selves? For me, it is different if someone says to me "Jonathan, I have long ago dismissed the basic premise underlying your book," and "Judging by your book, you are a stupid guy." the first invites debate, the second really does not. After all, I might dismiss my earlier positions at some later date with no shame at all. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 15:14:28 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: hen Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity In-Reply-To: Message of Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:23:34 -0700 from On Tue, 18 Aug 1998 10:23:34 -0700 Peter Balestrieri said: > > It seems your chickens are roosting quite nicely. "I hate gossip." - Jack Spandrift, Angola Penitentiary #41575, Angola, LA ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:42:45 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I bloody well have no idea what yr talking about! I'm scared! I'm lost! Todd ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 14:09:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Not yet/already In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yeah, I heard an interview about this. The interviewee, who has written on the subject, contrasted himself with a young assistant. He himself would tend to listen to the same kind of music every day, his assistant was totally unpredictable and experimental--more open to new experience was the interpretation. And there seems at present to be no explanation of the difference wrought by age. It occurred to me that there may be another partial explanation. When I was the age of his assistant I used to have marathon listening sessions. The was one night that started with Parsifal then proceeded to the Mass in B Minor (both for the first time) and ended at dawn with Mahler's Third. Now I tend to hear new things and accept or dismiss them fairly quickly, with far more dismissals. Age? Or maybe my ear is better trained. Or maybe, more importantly, when I was first learning the classics almost everything I listened to was in fact great music and having learned the canon and then some the experiments were less frequently rewarding. The same being true of all the other arts, high and popular. As for not eating sushi after 35, those experimental enough to do so would have done so far earlier given availability. My father, who was always an adventurous eater, fell hopelessly in love with raw fish in his late 40's--love, in his case, at first sight. But in this age of more universal availability those likely to experiment would have done so by 35, and the rest, the potential sushinuts, would be the more conservative remnant. More thoughts on flexibility. One does fall into routines. Along comes a major life change, a divorce, say, or a threat to life, and with it an explosion of new learning, new experimentation. So, maybe neither so mysterious nor so frightening a phenomenon. At 01:52 PM 8/18/98 -0500, you wrote: >Our language does not consist of a stock set of sentences, but sometimes >we behave as though it did (Xavier Rubert de Ventos). Against Heidegger's >contention that we have not yet begun to think, Wittgenstein: we are >already thinking. Phenomology takes us further, rather than closer, to >phenomena, just as hermeneutics takes us further from understanding. Do >we need someone to explain to us how we understand something that we >already understand, how in some sense we understand it because we have >already understood it before we even know what its about? As we get older >our experience grows while our openness to new experience diminishes: few >will try sushi for the first time after the age of 35, or change their >taste in music, or get their tongues pierced, according to a recent >scientific survey (consequences of this for educational theory). I no >longer read the books I review; I look at the index, the table of >contents, the footnotes. In the grocery store I am constantly seeing >people that look vaguely familiar to me. This is because I saw them three >minutes before in another aisle. To be continued... > > >Jonathan > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 17:40:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Zauhar Subject: location(3): three quotes and 2 questions In-Reply-To: <35D9E063.6B6B@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "thus we are to work in our own 'locality': not piggishly, not narrowly. We must see, steal, beg, borrow--but we borrow only that which we want. What we feel, think, conclude that we need. Not what is imposed on us (unless we can't help it, then we use that too: Negro American Music)." William Carlos Willams, _The Embodiment of K._, p. 150 Question: has anyone ever lived/visited some place where it seemed impossible to get any writing/thinking done? How to deal w/ it? "It would be awfully lonely being the only surrealist at the University of Minnesota" -- Kenneth Koch Question: Joel Lewis raised in interesting point about reading his NJ poems in Seattle. I like his work and I mean no disrespect to it or the general point he raised: I think I'm going elsewhere with this question: what would it mean if poets in Seattle and New York cared more about the Minnesota poetry of Kenneth Koch's hypothetical surrealist than his or her St. Paul neighbor w/ which said hypothetical surrealist goes Walleye fishing? How much does location mean if the local is so portable? "critics may smile, but I would rate the verse of an Alaskan poet (given the same ability) higher than the verse of a poet from Yalta. Of course! Since the Alaskkan has to freeze and spend money on warm clothes and the ink from his pen keeps freezing. Whereas the yalta man writes against a background of palmtrees in a spot which is nice even without poetry." --Vladimir Mayakovsky David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "I believe that the devil is in these poets. They destroy all universities. And I heard from an old master of Leipsic who had been Magister for 36 years that when he was a young men then did the university stand firm, for there was not a poet within 20 miles." _Epistolae Obscurorum Virorum_, ii.46. Quoted in Helen Waddell's _The Wandering Scholars_ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 19:22:34 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: snorting up the Pound / Williams line MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy. Just getting back from Boston. The question posed was one where Pound's innovator's were merely the focus of invention, rather than all five sections of oratory. First of all, Pound sacked the innovators / imitators idea from Horace's Ars Poetica without a thread of improvement. Hook line & sinker. Which is to say, I am picking on someone my own size. 2nd. Since I have taken a stance as speaking to a group posited at a certain level of familiarity with oratory, exploring Quintillian did not, and still does not, strike me as a necessity. I disagree in the following way: Patent No. 296,933 - Bench Plane / Norman Edward Curtis Mauston, WI April 15, 1884. This bench plane provided for "accurate and quick lateral adjustment of the plane iron" and consisted of a fulcrum, a longitudinal groove, and a lever that could be operated by hand or by an adjusting screw. Patent No. 17,192 - Improvement in boats for duck hunting / Robert Bogle / Rock Hall, MD, May 5, 1857. Propelled by wading or paddling, this low-floating boat served as a duck blind where a hunter was hidden by a waterproof cloth. The floating platform, which could be painted to match the water, contained four decoys representing the types of waterfowl being hunted. --------------------------- A simple, quantifiable, traceable reason for each invention's "success" or "failure" is not contained within a specific philosophic model that could possibly offer a determinacy with regularity. Can we always say an invention expires as a direct result of the innovators ingenuity? The idea of experiment as purely derived from method has been suggested to the listserv as if there is some way to come up with an approximal why. And yet, at least in the above case, the end result is one of simplicity, one object is still in production, the other is not. One product failed as the result of production methods used by the manufacturer, as well as the shelf space requirement. Where does this fit in? All kinds of metonymy, synecdoche, metaphor, arrive beyond these but here is a start: Success of invention vs. oratio invention - invention shelf space allocated & arranged - disposition pairing down of intended audience through marketing - elocution product brand name awareness - memory production methods, packaging and impact of product - delivery Olson carries me with disposition as much as memory (contrivance thereof) and invention. In short, in a statement where invention and originality are the sole reduciaries then one would say Boo-berry cereal lasted for nearly a decade on the market because it was a superb invention & Bob Perelman's The First World disappeared from the market in under five years for lacking the cereal's cloven foot. Originality and independence in the production of subject matter is not even close to the whole of the moon. There is comfort provided or power gained by preset categories? This is where the wonder twin powers of poetry are activated in a Kristevan form of oppositional forces in society. That the existence of an X starts to inform the existence of its polar enemy -X. I value the five parts of oratory because I know them, imbed them, work against them. Each of them has influenced a work and offered a way to bridge into a desire for understanding. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:12:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: QUERIES (CB and DS) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Two questions---- Does anybody here know what Bernstein poem (i think it's at least 9 years old) that has some line (or sentiment) to the effect of "Hey, I'm glad I didn't live any longer, because if I would have I would have had to spend more money?" (this is a TOTAL paraphrase, from flimsy memory.... I probably have the TONE totally wrong, and maybe even the MEANING). Any help would be appreciated? Thanks 2) Does anybody have email (backchannel) address for Dale Smith? thanks, chris s...... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 20:35:58 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The next deadline for Fourteen Hills: The SFSU Review is coming up. We publish poetry, fiction, drama, creative nonfiction and essays. Send up to 5 poems or one piece of prose (2 if short short) with SASE by September 1. The Editor-in-Chief is Linda Jarkesy. Look for our most recent issue at Small Press Distribution. Fourteen Hills Creative Writing Dept San Francisco State Univ 1600 Holloway San Francisco, CA 94132 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 22:45:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) from Another Labor-Related List ... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT A few weeks back there was some discussion on Poetics about Borders Bookstores. Forwarded from the UCLEA Labor Studies List. Ah, culture... Kent ------------------- Some humor for your Monday mornings up there in North America.... Early Warning Signs Borders bookstore chain has been bothered of late by union activity. As a result, Anne Kubek of their Human Resources Dept. prepared a manual on "Union Awareness Training for Borders Managers." As a public service, someone has been kind enough to post the whole text on the internet . Of particular value is a section entitled "Recognizing the Early Signs of Union Activity," a concern we all share. Here are a few of the warning signals: 1. "Employees gather in small groups of twos and threes and immediately halt their conversations when managers approach." 2. "Employees start gathering to talk in areas that are off the beaten path." 3. "Employees who are not normally seen talking to one another begin associating more regularly. Strange alliances begin to form." 4. "New vocabulary may creep into employees conversations. Union terms such as seniority, grievance, bumping, job security, job posting, etc. may appear in conversations." 5. "Managers start getting an inordinate amount of critical and probing questions concerning policies and/or benefits. " Keep vigilant. You never know where the virus of critical thought will strike next. found at: http://www.scn.org/news/newspeak/week.html Tom Tom Kruse / Casilla 5812 / Cochabamba, Bolivia Tel/Fax: (591-4) 248242 Email: tkruse@albatros.cnb.net --part0_902453804_boundary-- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 18 Aug 1998 23:59:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Bullworth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT There was quite a bit of discussion about _Saving Private Ryan_ a couple of weeks ago. Has there been any discussion of _Bullworth_? I just saw it in a Motel 6. What a movie! I'm pretty sure there is no Hollywood film in recent memory that features a major (whatever that really means) American poet. Amiri Baraka, no less, plays a homeless sort who haunts Bullworth and tells him to be a "spirit" and not a "ghost." Bullworth is a typical bought white politician who more or less goes nuts, sheds his skin, and starts rapping anti-capitalist stuff like a Black Panther. This inspires the kingpin of an inner-city gang to suddenly see the light and become responsible to the children of his community. A number of loud and sexed-up black women go wild for Bullworth in advance of the men learning, via his didactic rap, how to be men. But Bullworth gets shot dead by an insurance executive, his promise cut short. Sorry if this movie has already been discussed here, but I'm curious about what people think: Amiri Baraka, Maoist extraordinaire, jumped all over Spike Lee a few years back in Sulfur for selling out to liberal revisionism with _Malcom X_. Does Baraka do the right thing in _Bullworth_? It's a strange and fascinating movie. Some critics say it's profoundly racist. Others say it's the most leftist and subversive thing ever done in Hollywood. Can it be both? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 01:57:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Jennifer Sondheim Subject: susan's "and the aliens" (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - susan's "and the aliens" "and the aliens, where are they, in our desperation, looking for large eyes or things which dwell within us or within our identities or equivalences, sliding ourselves into a more dangerous universal womb, but at least the womb which doesn't show, exfoliate, closed labia just as they refuse us entrance - that there are none of them, no scripts, no continuities but our own hysterias seeming to construct semblance, so that now we substitute the net or art or just about anything else, else which might nonetheless turn ashy in a universal conflagration generated by the smallest flesh or flash, risen from the surface of the sun; so now we wait on meteors or asteroids, veering from dangerous safety to safe danger, a distance few or fewer, but then the danger's real, safety's not, that's the truth of it as it falls disturbed and scattered to the floor where one might imagine grounds defined as metaphysics or whatever until the text chars, explodes, implodes - "it's as if there's nothing to read, nothing to see," say the aliens - now we can move them from say siberia or area fifty-one all the way to our interior - there are scripts within scripts, encrypted scripts, lost-treasure-scripts, scripts-of-ghosts-and-demons, scripts-of-discontinuities, kabbalistic numbers prying open numb alien skulls and thought- forms, "Oh, how she could go on, in the mornings when the sun was just rising behind the poplars in the garden." "The truth is, she did go on, she went on alone and speaking, murmuring the pulse of the green-gold world, and there was nothing else to it, nothing else to any of it, nothing, nothing at all." _____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 00:25:17 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity In-Reply-To: <003AC093.1826@intuit.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII It seems your chickens are roosting quite nicely. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 06:17:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Ganick Organization: @Home Network Subject: location location location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit having a laptop computer has changed my notion of 'location' in my writing practice... before, i would transcribe into a journal at some place or in my house, then transfer onto a typewriter (later an old computer) and that'd be it... now, with portabibility, one can write basically anywhere and using floppy diskettes, bring the results back home, or work on them in even another location... and, speaking personally, i've always felt that my best writing has been done while in the middle of a noisy cafe, so the laptop works just fine... peter ganick ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:46:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: snorting up the Pound etc. Dave Baratier's interesting post. Maybe "innovation" or "invention" or "experiment" are usually umbrella terms for originality/creativity in general, ie. standing for all five parts of oratory combined. But the "inspired idea" (invention) which creates a "product" which is both popular and lasting does seem to fall under the sway of a "muse" of some kind. Was Dickinson's oeuvre an outcome of strategic marketing or devotion to the muse (ie. an ordering of "poetic instruments" - all of them - to inspiration)? Jeff Walker in his book Bardic Ethos argues that Pound, Wms, Olson ultimately failed in their goal of writing the "tale of the tribe" because their oratory - their dispositions & elocutions - contradicted their own subject matter (shared history) with an elite/sacerdotal ethos which made the sufferings of the Dionysian poet, rather than the shared history, the center of attention. I guess my thought would be: if a sort of inspiration rules the general "disposition" of a poet's materials, then Pound et al. are telling the history they HAD to tell - "the builders builded better [& worse] than they knew". Perhaps this takes the poets off the hook somehow? Horace & Dante might disagree with this? (Plato might agree...). I don't know. Maybe this is a false trail or off your subject. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:31:43 -0400 Reply-To: daniel7@IDT.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Zimmerman Organization: Bard-O Subject: Re: Bullworth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > There was quite a bit of discussion about _Saving Private Ryan_ a > couple of weeks ago. Has there been any discussion of _Bullworth_? > I just saw it in a Motel 6. What a movie! > > I'm pretty sure there is no Hollywood film in recent memory that > features a major (whatever that really means) American poet. Amiri > Baraka, no less, plays a homeless sort who haunts Bullworth and tells > him to be a "spirit" and not a "ghost." Bullworth is a typical > bought white politician who more or less goes nuts, sheds his skin, > and starts rapping anti-capitalist stuff like a Black Panther. This > inspires the kingpin of an inner-city gang to suddenly see the light > and become responsible to the children of his community. A number of > loud and sexed-up black women go wild for Bullworth in advance of the > men learning, via his didactic rap, how to be men. But Bullworth > gets shot dead by an insurance executive, his promise cut > short. > > Sorry if this movie has already been discussed here, but I'm curious > about what people think: Amiri Baraka, Maoist extraordinaire, jumped > all over Spike Lee a few years back in Sulfur for selling out to > liberal revisionism with _Malcom X_. Does Baraka do the > right thing in _Bullworth_? It's a strange and fascinating movie. > Some critics say it's profoundly racist. Others say it's the most > leftist and subversive thing ever done in Hollywood. > > Can it be both? > > Kent I saw it about six weeks ago. Although it contained racist elements, it didn't strike me as a 'racist' film, because its political agenda sought to counter the milieu which mulches racism. Certainly, the positions Warren Beatty took as Bulworth [an allegorical monicker of New Critical ambiguity,or a deconstructive Dorian Grayism?] represent some of the most radical statements by a 'hero' I've ever seen from Tinseltown, but the cartoonish improbability of his conversion from Wilbur Mills to Ice-T seemed to me to undercut the seriousness with which the audience might feel obliged to consider his rap-analysis. As you say, he "more or less goes nuts." [One also gets the sense that the lady in the film goes a bit nuts, too -- Halle Berry ain't no Monica Lewinsky.] Baraka's admonition [be a spirit, not a ghost] seemed an antidote to the temptation to understand the film's point as coextensive with its 'that's enter-tain-ment' frivolity; it suggests that his conversion, however heartfelt, may have left him as 'ghostly' as in his previous incarnation as the careerist slimeball politician. Baraka functions like a Sprecher in Renaissance painting, pointing our way back into the picture's ideological structure, lest we groove too much on its surface slickness. I loved seeing him in this cameo, but wonder how many other folks in the theatre had the foggiest notion of his identity. Now, if Spike Lee had done the role... What do others think? Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:35:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know of a study of reactionary anti-modernism? What I mean is the sort of periodic anti-experimental reaction, often with a conservative political ideology, that crops up every twenty years (or perhaps never disappears). I don't mean just another ritualistic vilification of Vendler, but something that perhaps puts some historical perspective on the matter, with some breadth and depth. Thanks in advance. Changing the subject, I found this sentence last night in a book I was reading: "It is characteristic of Heidegger's thought that at precisely at the moment when he is most baffling--he refuses the explain himself." For me it is nearly the opposite: at precisely the moment I explain myself, I am least baffling. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:52:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: oogling Comments: To: laura@NAROPA.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit laura@NAROPA.EDU writes: >I feel sorry for Todd Baron -- he seems puppy-like in his desires, >probably >lonely. He probably means well, though that's hardly an excuse. I'm new to this list. This is very embarrassing. Is there something I should know? It's some kind of an in joke, right? Or else, poor Todd! dwm "After all, there is a touch of aggression in demanding of a man you don't know why he hums on a public footpath." - H. G. Wells, The First Men in the Moon. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:56:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity Comments: To: toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET writes: >YIKES. Lay off! >Todd Baron >(NOT lonely--and no dog...) Anybody who, in a public forum, is called lonely, a dog, sloppy and stupid, well he's gotta have something pretty interesting going for him. Todd, we're into the Interesting Zone, as Henry James used to call it. Yikes, indeed! dwm "In the vast silence, surrounded by the intoxicating scent of wild pennyroyal and other aromatic plants, the bees buzzed." - Grazia Deledda. After the Divorce (1902). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:55:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: from "MAYHEW" at Aug 19, 98 09:35:23 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dewey has a great, albeit brief commentary of the kind you're looking for. Of reactionary critics (he gives as an example Eliot's calling for a poetry which emanates from the "truest philosophy") Dewey writes, "critics of this school do not lack definite, not to say dogmatic, convictions on this point. Without any particular special competency in philosophic thought, they are ready to pronounce *ex cathedra* judgements, because they are committed to some conception of the relation of man to the universe that flourished in some past epoch. They regard its restoration as essential to the redemption of society from its present evil state. Fundamentally their criticisms are moral recipes. Since great poets have had different philosophies, acceptance of their point of view entails that if we approve the philosophy of Dante we must condemn the poetry of Milton, and if we accept that of Lucretius we must find the poetry of both the others woefully defective. And where, upon the basis of any of these philosophies, does Goethe come in? And yet these are our great 'philosophic' poets" (Art as Experience, p. 319). *Art as Experience* is actually a wonderful rand complex epudiation of the methodology employed by critics such as Vendler, though of course that repudiation is implicit rather than explicit. -m. According to MAYHEW: > > Does anyone know of a study of reactionary anti-modernism? What I mean is > the sort of periodic anti-experimental reaction, often with a conservative > political ideology, that crops up every twenty years (or perhaps never > disappears). I don't mean just another ritualistic vilification of > Vendler, but something that perhaps puts some historical perspective on > the matter, with some breadth and depth. Thanks in advance. > > Changing the subject, I found this sentence last night in a book I > was reading: > > "It is characteristic of Heidegger's thought that at precisely at the > moment when he is most baffling--he refuses the explain himself." > > For me it is nearly the opposite: at precisely the moment I explain > myself, I am least baffling. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > University of Kansas > jmayhew@ukans.edu > (785) 864-3851 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:04:12 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jonathan, For a primary document in the history of anti-experimental backlash, and one that provides some historical depth, (at least back to the late nineteenth century) I suggest checking out Donald Davie's book _Thomas Hardy and British Poetry_. This isn't a history of anti-experimentalism, but an instance of it grounded in history. Davie claims that Hardy's very conservative, neo-Augustan poetry is central to English poetry, and that experimental work, while often more interesting, is nevertheless unacceptable. (This kind of ambivalence is typical of Davie). What is really interesting (and sometimes infuriating) about this is that Davie tries to demonstrate that liberalism is the province of formalism, while experimentalism implies utopian and therefore totalitarian politics. So: a good book to sharpen your own arguments against. By the way -- do you know anything about Brazilian experimental poetry? I'd like to do a Brazillian avant-garde issue of Samizdat, but need a guide to the terrain. Robert Archambeau Dept. of English Lake Forest College, Illinois & Lund University, Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:24:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: location location location Comments: To: soaring@MA.ULTRANET.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit soaring@MA.ULTRANET.COM writes: >I am deeply impressed by a loving and intimate knowledge in Mark's >posting to this thread, describing the view from Olson's windows. Me too! Shamefully (and shamelessly), I haven't looked at Olson for twenty years but these comments made me want to go back and have another look through his window. It also brought back to mind old Ambrose Bierce and the definition of "resident" one finds in his Devil's Dictionary: "One who can't leave." dwm "Better one's own crust than another's cake." - Sholom Aleichem. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 08:21:13 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: Re: Not yet/already Content-Type: text/plain Mark Weiss said... >Now I tend to hear new things and accept or >dismiss them fairly quickly, with far more dismissals. Age? Or maybe my ear >is better trained. Or maybe, more importantly, when I was first learning >the classics almost everything I listened to was in fact great music and >having learned the canon and then some the experiments were less frequently >rewarding. The same being true of all the other arts, high and popular. I always worry, that my ear in fact hasn't become "better trained," but in fact "more" trained (and maybe also less patient). Which leads to listening to the canon and how that makes one more likely to enjoy this or that or listen for specific things (repetitions, melody, counterpoint and all that), and not appreciate the merits or aesthetic of other musics (though this applies to other arts). I don't mean to inspire a discussion of subjectivities and "training," but maybe that is what I mean. jperez ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:33:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity Comments: To: Peter_Balestrieri@INTUIT.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Peter_Balestrieri@INTUIT.COM writes: >It seems your chickens are roosting quite nicely. Come on, you guys! Get civilized. This is an international list. dwm "Never speak of yourself: either you will praise yourself, which is vanity, or you will denigrate yourself, which is stupidity." - Umberto Eco. The Island of the Day Before (1994). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 11:44:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: location(3): three quotes and 2 questions Comments: To: dzauhar@UIC.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit dzauhar@UIC.EDU writes: >Question: has anyone ever lived/visited some place where it seemed >impossible to get any writing/thinking done? How to deal w/ it? Is writing and thinking about the impossibility of writing and thinking an impossibility? Sounds as if it could be interesting. Sounds like Toronto! Those were three good quotes and two good questions. dwm "I don't mean, of course, that you should write a lot of poetry while we're away. You don't need to write. The important thing is to fertilize your poetic sensibility." - Yukio Mishima, "Act of Worship" (1965). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 09:57:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: translation anyone? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i'm trying to write about this translation of Dino Campana's Orphic Songs by i.l. solomon not being fluent in italian and not being a translator, but a constant reader of translations, and having studied italian, i definitely believe in reading the original language out loud in however poor a pronounciation, because meaning pops from the sounding writely or wrongly, Berrigan and Zukofsky translate by sound leaving the morpheme to swim in the subconscious to work like a drunken worm and poets like Campana and Neruda or Lorca can write in a simple or vernacular that makes heightened feelings from rhythms. But I'm finding these translations in general too literal and not rapturous as Campana's own lingo is reputed. I'm not interested in slagging a 98 year old translator but i think the rapture might come more readily from a translator in their 20's, or even 40-'s I see that Charles Wright has also done a translation i ought to read that before telling you to give a pass to this very sensuous book (production wise)City Lights, reissue of a thirty year old translation, maybe it's Ferlinghetti paying some dues to the community he grew up in and the neighbourhood he continues to get wealthy in (Columbus). one thing i will report about this translation that irks me somewhat is, for grammars sake, he'll (occasionally) transpose the ultimate line with the penultimate; negating the weight of the finality, the last word lingering on the tongue and the tympanum the position of the word as final serving in my ear like epiphany triggers not blind! meaning. some of us engage in that old fashioned cogitation, and find it hard to think too quickly when old friends are dying like this weekend I was at the extended family memorial for charles watts his ashes there in an urn. Robin Blaser spoke and read and read a poem of Charles from his sole publication, bread & wine, Goh Poh Seng read, Bob Rose read, George Bowering appeared looking grey (the opposite of merry) the opposite of light he probably had to leave i missed speaking to him, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Lisa Robertson, Pirsilla Groves, Marya Hindmarch, Renee Rodin, Jan___, Peter Magnani, Peter and Patti Huse, Ralph Maude's darling her name slips my mind but her beauty is seered in my reptile brain, bryant knox, ted byrne, susan clark, peter and meredith quartermain, melissa wolsak, all taking one's thoughts far from e-mail as grandchildren do and animals needs. anybody else reading this City Lights translation of Campana? it's a side by side original and translation, which is always my preference, i might have three translations on the shelf, one for the quality of the translation, one for the original text, and another for the apparatus(notes, intros, essays) that's if i can afford a shelf. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Yeah, I stole from the treasury of human folly I spent it all on you, baby... don't mention it Duncan McNaughton ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:05:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Jornal de Poesia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert, for your interest in the brazilian avant-garde you may find this interesting. http://www.secrel.com.br/jpoesia/poesia.html It is a site dedicated to Poetry in Portuguese. i'm still looking for a translation or h. de campos' "transient servitude" so if you come across one please back channel me. thanks, kevin h. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:07:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: QUERIES (CB and DS) Comments: To: "David W. McFadden" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks all who backchanneled the address info. for DAle S..... I still await an answer to the bernstein question.... I thought it was in THE SOPHIST, but no luck..... I wonder if charles himself is out there, and has any idea what i'm talking about............ chris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:11:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: reactionary query Comments: To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU In-Reply-To: <35DAA31C.E7F@LFC.EDU> from "Robert Archambeau" at Aug 19, 98 10:04:12 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to Robert Archambeau: > > What is really interesting (and sometimes infuriating) about this is > that Davie tries to demonstrate that liberalism is the province of > formalism, while experimentalism implies utopian and therefore > totalitarian politics. So: a good book to sharpen your own arguments > against. > > Can't resist adding one more comment of Dewey's to this discussion a propos to RA's frustration w/ Davies' critique of experimentalism's utopian impulse. Dewey argues for the efficacy of utopian narrative strategies - and anticipates Jameson - in the following: "The idea becomes a standpoint from which to examine existing occurences...the suggestion or fancy though still ideal is treated as a possibility capable of realization *in* the concrete natural world, not as a superior reality apart from that world. As such, it becomes a platform from which to scrutinize natural events." Now, Dewey's utopian term would be "democracy," while Jameson's would be some variation on a Marxist utopia, but both would have the same reponse for Davies - that he has failed to recognize the evocation of utopia (in description, in syntax, grammar) as *rhetorical strategy* as "socially symbolic act" to use the phrase Jameson takes from Burke. Davies, not believing Dewey's maxim that "philosophy is a form of desire, of effort at action," simply takes utopian strategies to be bad philosophy or bad writing, or bad politics, precisely b/c he believes they represent " a superior reality apart from (the) world." But I'd say that, at least in regard to the 20th C. tradition of experimentalism I know & love, he's dead wrong. Writers like Dewey, Stein, O'Hara, or for that matter musicians like Ornette Coleman ("free" jazz), are predominantly interested in utopian strategies b/c they catalyze disatisfaction (w/ existing occurences) and desire (for better ones, pointed in the direction of whatver utopian description has been offered), not because they believe their utopia to be "true" or "real." This more than anything else, I would say, distinguishes pragmatism's utopian strategies from fascism's. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:16:34 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: ooooooooooogling stupidity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David W. McFadden wrote: > > toddbaron@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > >YIKES. Lay off! > >Todd Baron > >(NOT lonely--and no dog...) > Anybody who, in a public forum, is called lonely, a dog, sloppy and > stupid, well he's gotta have something pretty interesting going for him. > Todd, we're into the Interesting Zone, as Henry James used to call it. > Yikes, indeed! > "In the vast silence, surrounded by the intoxicating scent of wild > pennyroyal and other aromatic plants, the bees buzzed." > - Grazia Deledda. After the Divorce (1902). why--arf--thank-you--(sqeak)-- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:17:37 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: toddbaron Subject: Re: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAYHEW wrote: > > Does anyone know of a study of reactionary anti-modernism? What I mean is > the sort of periodic anti-experimental reaction, often with a conservative > political ideology, that crops up every twenty years (or perhaps never > disappears). I don't mean just another ritualistic vilification of > Vendler, but something that perhaps puts some historical perspective on > the matter, with some breadth and depth. Thanks in advance. > > Changing the subject, I found this sentence last night in a book I > was reading: > > "It is characteristic of Heidegger's thought that at precisely at the > moment when he is most baffling--he refuses the explain himself." > > For me it is nearly the opposite: at precisely the moment I explain > myself, I am least baffling. > > Jonathan Mayhew > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > University of Kansas > jmayhew@ukans.edu > (785) 864-3851 Timothy Stelle--I believe--that's his name--at UCLA--has written in a vehemently anti-modernist tone about the need for a formal return to the formal (sic) poem. Todd B. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:07:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Marianne Moore's spirit on Bullworth's ghost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LIKE A BULLWORTH Pimped. Sexed-up "Panther Power" Hollywood's left, the paradigm-- a paradox. Post-Spike. Well dressed, you rap the did/act and are subversive. Beatty's last? Hot, the tempting tinsel. Careerist; firmament Maoed-up by Baraka till undercut, like a Bullworth lead-saluted saluted by lead? As though flying Old Ghost full mast. On Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:32 AM, Daniel Zimmerman [SMTP:daniel7@IDT.NET] wrote: > KENT JOHNSON wrote: > > > > There was quite a bit of discussion about _Saving Private Ryan_ a > > couple of weeks ago. Has there been any discussion of _Bullworth_? > > I just saw it in a Motel 6. What a movie! > > > > I'm pretty sure there is no Hollywood film in recent memory that > > features a major (whatever that really means) American poet. Amiri > > Baraka, no less, plays a homeless sort who haunts Bullworth and tells > > him to be a "spirit" and not a "ghost." Bullworth is a typical > > bought white politician who more or less goes nuts, sheds his skin, > > and starts rapping anti-capitalist stuff like a Black Panther. This > > inspires the kingpin of an inner-city gang to suddenly see the light > > and become responsible to the children of his community. A number of > > loud and sexed-up black women go wild for Bullworth in advance of the > > men learning, via his didactic rap, how to be men. But Bullworth > > gets shot dead by an insurance executive, his promise cut > > short. > > > > Sorry if this movie has already been discussed here, but I'm curious > > about what people think: Amiri Baraka, Maoist extraordinaire, jumped > > all over Spike Lee a few years back in Sulfur for selling out to > > liberal revisionism with _Malcom X_. Does Baraka do the > > right thing in _Bullworth_? It's a strange and fascinating movie. > > Some critics say it's profoundly racist. Others say it's the most > > leftist and subversive thing ever done in Hollywood. > > > > Can it be both? > > > > Kent > > I saw it about six weeks ago. Although it contained racist elements, it > didn't strike me as a 'racist' film, because its political agenda sought > to counter the milieu which mulches racism. > > Certainly, the positions Warren Beatty took as Bulworth [an allegorical > monicker of New Critical ambiguity,or a deconstructive Dorian Grayism?] > represent some of the most radical statements by a 'hero' I've ever seen > from Tinseltown, but the cartoonish improbability of his conversion from > Wilbur Mills to Ice-T seemed to me to undercut the seriousness with > which the audience might feel obliged to consider his rap-analysis. As > you say, he "more or less goes nuts." [One also gets the sense that the > lady in the film goes a bit nuts, too -- Halle Berry ain't no Monica > Lewinsky.] > > Baraka's admonition [be a spirit, not a ghost] seemed an antidote to the > temptation to understand the film's point as coextensive with its > 'that's enter-tain-ment' frivolity; it suggests that his conversion, > however heartfelt, may have left him as 'ghostly' as in his previous > incarnation as the careerist slimeball politician. Baraka functions like > a Sprecher in Renaissance painting, pointing our way back into the > picture's ideological structure, lest we groove too much on its surface > slickness. I loved seeing him in this cameo, but wonder how many other > folks in the theatre had the foggiest notion of his identity. Now, if > Spike Lee had done the role... > > What do others think? > > Dan Zimmerman ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:35:00 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Magee quotes Dewey: > "The idea becomes a standpoint from which to examine existing > occurences...the suggestion or fancy though still ideal is treated as a > possibility capable of realization *in* the concrete natural world, not as > a superior reality apart from that world. As such, it becomes a platform > from which to scrutinize natural events." This is some interesting stuff, and I have quite a bit of sympathy for the view that Dewey shares with Jameson. As for what you say about Davie -- yes. Davie proceeds from opposite (and, I think, incorrect but provocative) assumptions. He likes the idea of provisionality, but it is exactly this that he sees as a possibility limited to neo-Augustan poetry like Thomas Hardy's. That is, he would agree with Dewey/Jameson about platforms from which to scrutinize events being valuable, but he feels that there is an absolutism in any poetry that claims a vatic or visionary power for the poet (he puts Pound in the visionary camp), and that this disallows for any kind of provisionality in the "platform". It becomes an uncompromisable goal, not an archimedian point outside the world from which we can perform critique. Ironically, Davie thinks the vatic makes for better poetry, but the provisional/ironic stance of someone like Hardy seems more ethical, and more liberal, to him. Familiar stuff to anyone who's read Plato's Republic -- 'we love this stuff, but for the sake of the children, dear, it has to go'. Even more ironically, Davie's chapters on experimental Brits like Jeremy Prynne and Roy Fisher are subtle, appreciative and dead-on about particular poems, even though they are part of an argument that condemns experiment. Robert Archambeau Lake Forest College, Illinois & Lund University, Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 10:36:09 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Not yet/already In-Reply-To: <19980819152113.14212.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Point well taken, and I realize that "canon" is politically loaded (pardon the pun), altho on this occasion I didn't mean to be provocative. My own experience, and of course the caveat here is that it's me with all my agendas doing the reporting here, is that while any kind of training can limit appreciation of what falls outside that training the learned discipline of listening and an educated (no matter how attained) curiosity about sound and form (I speak of music again) actually has made it easier for me to venture outwards. At 08:21 AM 8/19/98 PDT, you wrote: >Mark Weiss said... > >>Now I tend to hear new things and accept or >>dismiss them fairly quickly, with far more dismissals. Age? Or maybe my >ear >>is better trained. Or maybe, more importantly, when I was first >learning >>the classics almost everything I listened to was in fact great music >and >>having learned the canon and then some the experiments were less >frequently >>rewarding. The same being true of all the other arts, high and popular. > >I always worry, that my ear in fact hasn't become "better trained," but >in fact "more" trained (and maybe also less patient). Which leads to >listening to the canon and how that makes one more likely to enjoy this >or that or listen for specific things (repetitions, melody, counterpoint >and all that), and not appreciate the merits or aesthetic of other >musics (though this applies to other arts). I don't mean to inspire a >discussion of subjectivities and "training," but maybe that is what I >mean. > >jperez > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 12:56:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert writes: "but he feels that there is an absolutism in any poetry that claims a vatic or visionary power for the poet (he puts Pound in the visionary camp), and that this disallows for any kind of provisionality in the "platform". It becomes an uncompromisable goal, not an archimedian point outside the world from which we can perform critique." Yes, the danger if you are are a prophet or visionary or charismatic religious leader is that someone might listen to you and you can start a totalitarian movement. (I hate when that happens.) This is why Richard Rorty, a Deweyan pragmatist, confines poetry to a private sphere--it's all very well to have visionary poetics, but politics must be liberal/pragmatist. Some Spanish poets I have worked on/against say, essentially: now that we have normal, democratic politics, we can have "normal" poetry too, by which they mean the creation of a fictional simulacrum of the poet's subjectivity with which "normal" readers can identify without too much trouble. This stance seems reactionary to me, though couched in the language of liberalism. Of course, they say, "we are not reactionary, it is the avant-garde that is ideologically suspect." This normalization of poetry leads invevitably to what "reactionary" English language poets have advocated on both sides of the Atlantic, hence my original query. The Davie book is an extremely helpful suggestion. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:48:30 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:11:53 -0400 from On Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:11:53 -0400 Michael Magee said: >> >Can't resist adding one more comment of Dewey's to this discussion a >propos to RA's frustration w/ Davies' critique of experimentalism's >utopian impulse. Dewey argues for the efficacy of utopian narrative >strategies - and anticipates Jameson - in the following: > >"The idea becomes a standpoint from which to examine existing >occurences...the suggestion or fancy though still ideal is treated as a >possibility capable of realization *in* the concrete natural world, not as >a superior reality apart from that world. As such, it becomes a platform >from which to scrutinize natural events." So let me see if I get this straight: reactionary critics are hanging around judging poetry according to moral recipes based on their idea of how the world should be (their outdated idea). But progressive critics judge poetry according to moral recipes based on their (up-to-date) idea of how the world should be. Utopia is good; the good old days are bad; right? No - let's be more specific. For progressive critics, all experiment is good because the past & the present are bad & we're hopeful for new things in the future, and experiment at least tries to open those doors. Right? For reactionary critics, all experiment is bad because the present is bad & getting worse because experimenters are forgetting everything good the past gave us. Are we getting closer now? Is this a useable recipe? - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:07:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: from "MAYHEW" at Aug 19, 98 12:56:21 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit According to MAYHEW: > > Some Spanish poets I have worked on/against say, essentially: now that > we have normal, democratic politics, we can have "normal" poetry too, by > which they mean the creation of a fictional simulacrum of the poet's > subjectivity with which "normal" readers can identify without too much > trouble. This stance seems reactionary to me, though couched in the > language of liberalism. Of course, they say, "we are not reactionary, it > is the avant-garde that is ideologically suspect." This normalization of > poetry leads invevitably to what "reactionary" English language poets have > advocated on both sides of the Atlantic, hence my original query. > This view, in poets Spanish or otherwise fails to take into account what Barbara Packer once called language's "natural tendency toward ossification, which can turn the purest truth into the deadliest falsehood." Which is to say, "normal, democratic politics" (the phrase) might not equal "normal, democratic politics" (the social system) in your neighborhood. And, even more importantly, the former may not be working anymore in the service of the latter. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 14:02:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Moore's finicky rewrite for the _Collected Posthumous Dictation_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LIKE A BULLWORTH Pimped. Sexed-up "Panther Power" Hollywood's left, the paradigm-- a paradox. Post-Spike. Well Xed, you rap the didact and are subversive. Beatty's last? Hot, the tempting tinsel. Careerist; firmament Maoed-up by Baraka till mowed down, like a Bullworth Reds alluded saluted dead? As though flying the Low Ghost full mast. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 13:32:00 +0000 Reply-To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lake Forest College Subject: Re: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Henry wrote: > So let me see if I get this straight: reactionary critics are hanging > around judging poetry according to moral recipes based on their idea of > how the world should be (their outdated idea). But progressive critics > judge poetry according to moral recipes based on their (up-to-date) > idea of how the world should be. Utopia is good; the good old days are > bad; right? No - let's be more specific. For progressive critics, all > experiment is good because the past & the present are bad & we're hopeful > for new things in the future, and experiment at least tries to open those > doors. Right? For reactionary critics, all experiment is bad because > the present is bad & getting worse because experimenters are forgetting > everything good the past gave us. Are we getting closer now? Is this > a useable recipe? Looking back on the various passages from Dewey that Michael has posted, it seems to me that the difference between "bad" visions of another moral universe (eg, Dante's world) and "good" versions of same has more to do with absolutism than with whether the view is backward looking or forward looking. That is, Dewey seems to me to condemn the _exclusive_ view that Dante's world is the good world (so therefore we'd best not look at Milton's). Wheras a "good" use of visions of utopias/'better times' would be to use them as springboards from which to critique our times, as opportunities to come to fresh perceptions, rather than as specific recipies for how the world ought to be. Michael knows Dewey a hell of a lot better than I do -- I think he can speak to this with greater accuracy. Robert Archambeau Lake Forest College, Illinois & Lund University, Sweden ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:13:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: reactionary query Comments: To: ARCHAMBEAU@LFC.EDU In-Reply-To: <35DAD3D0.339A@LFC.EDU> from "Robert Archambeau" at Aug 19, 98 01:32:00 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with Robert's answer to Henry here, for what its worth. What saves Dewey from getting into a good-vision / bad-vision, bad-past / good-future befuddlement, is his general unwillingness to talk in terms of good and bad. Again, I'd agree that he's much more interested in how various narratives can be/ might be / are "used as springboards" (RA's nice phrase) & he tends to find narratives which emphasize "real uncertainty and contingency" to be useful in sustaining democracies b/c they imply that institutions are re-makeable in accordance w/ changes in collective experience He'd say the opposite about narratives which rebuke experiment. So, one more quote which might help: "Let one bear this idea fully in mind and he will see how largely philosophy has been committed to a metaphysics of feudalism. By this I mean that it has thought of things in the world as occupying certain grades of value, or as having fixed degrees of truth, ranks of reality...It has become unconsciuosly an apologetic for the established order, b/c it has tried to show the rationality of this or that hierarchical grading of values and schemes of life." Incidentally, Mayhew mentioned Rorty &, while Rorty is obviously Deweyan in some sense, I think Dewey would be disgusted w/ much of what Rorty has to say, particularly in regards to his concept of "ethnocentrism" which relies on, to my mind, a pretty twisted view of the implications of pragmatism's theory of langauge, & on a reified notion of Western langague and culture generally. -m. According to Robert Archambeau: > > Looking back on the various passages from Dewey that Michael has posted, > it seems to me that the difference between "bad" visions of another > moral universe (eg, Dante's world) and "good" versions of same has more > to do with absolutism than with whether the view is backward looking or > forward looking. > > That is, Dewey seems to me to condemn the _exclusive_ view that Dante's > world is the good world (so therefore we'd best not look at Milton's). > Wheras a "good" use of visions of utopias/'better times' would be to use > them as springboards from which to critique our times, as opportunities > to come to fresh perceptions, rather than as specific recipies for how > the world ought to be. > > Michael knows Dewey a hell of a lot better than I do -- I think he can > speak to this with greater accuracy. > > > Robert Archambeau > Lake Forest College, Illinois & > Lund University, Sweden > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:35:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: Message of Wed, 19 Aug 1998 15:13:13 -0400 from I'm glad we're talkin poetry & philosophy & criticism, rather than badmouthing Todd Baron or analysing the Clinton situation [tho there's some good poem & play material there]. I can accept Dewey's criticism of Eliot, especially when his snooty provocations were becoming New Critical food for textbooks. But poetry is a conservative thing, fellas, profoundly so if I may use that word, as well as a progressive thing; good poetry transcends these boundaries. That was what I was trying to suggest; that Dewey has a set of paradigms or criteria just as fixed as Eliot's, if not so blatantly insignia'd with The Past. Experiment is always a good spin on Contingency; Open is a good spin-word for Inconclusive. What if I don't accept the binary thing you set up with Pound / Davies? What if I say, with Davies, that the poem is an end-in-itself, its purpose is to play out its own teleology; but what if I say with Eliot that the Universe is also a Work of Art, a Creation, and the perfected work of art - by being perfect - becomes a part of that supernatural Nature? Ask Blake where that fits into the vatic/toy continuum. Poetry is made by readers; the Poet is a Reader. Poetry is an actual Stream in which the reader begins to swim - with or against the currents. By conservative I mean that the poet is essentially a Listener who hears things down to their most ancient roots & relates them to the present; who "brings things old & new out of the storehouse". The reactionary/progressive boundaries of 100 years ago have shifted; the hierarchies of the middle ages seen as a threat to democracy may still have a stranglehold on institutions (viz. the Anglican Lambeth Conference recently adjourned) but they are no longer of much intellectual interest. The concept of "experiment" in poetry is not only an open, forward-looking, vatic opportunity; in academic circles it has a converse face: aestheticism, just as remote from mundane realities as any of Davies' propositions, to which any intellectual or philosophical challenge to "nominalism" [Peirce's term for relativism] is seen as a threat. Let me quote from the founder of Dewey's pragmatism as he reflects on some of those outmoded Dantean categories (from Peirce's essay "The Concept of God"): "No concept, not even those of mathemativs, is absolutely precise; and some of the most important for everyday use are extremely vague. Nevertheless, our instinctive beliefs involving such concepts are far more trustworthy than the best established results of science, if these be precisely under- stood. For instance, we all think that there is an element of order in the universe. Could any laboratory experiments render that proposition more cert- ain than instinct or common sense leaves it? It is reidiculous to broach such a question. But when anybody undertakes to say _precisely_ what that order consists in, he will quickly find he outruns all logical warrant. Men who are given to defining too much inevitably run themselves into confusion with the vague concepts of common sense... ...Now such being the pragamticist's answer to the question what he means by the word "God", the question whether there really is such a being is the question whether all physical science is merely the figment - the arbitrary fig ment - of the students of nature, and further whether the _one_ lesson of Gautama Boodha, Confucius, Socrates, and all who from any point of view have had their ways of conduct determined by meditation upon the physico-psychical universe, be only their arbitrary notion or be the Truth behind the appear- ances which the frivolous man does not think of; and whether the superhuman courage which such contemplation has conferred upon priests who go to pass their lives with lepers and refuse all offer of rescue is mere silly fanaticism the passion of a baby, or whether it is strength derived from the power of the truth. Now the only guide to the answer to this question lies in the power of the passion of love which more or less overmasters every agnostic scientist and everybody who seriously and deeply considers the universe. But whatever there may be of _argument_ in all this is as nothing, the merest nothing, in comparison to its force as an appeal to one's own instinct, which is to argument what substance is to shadow, what bed-rock is to the built foundations of a cathedral... ...Where would such an idea, say as that of God, come from, if not from direct experience? Would you make it the result of some kind of reasoning, good or bad? Why, reasoning can supply the mind with nothing in the world except an estimate of the value of a statistical ratio, that is, how often certain kinds of things are found in certain combinations in the ordinary courser of experience. And scepticism, in the sense of doubt of the validity of elementary ideas - which is really a proposal to turn an idea out of court and permit no inquiry into its applicability - is doubly condemned by the fundamental principle of scientific method - condemned first as obstructing inquiry, and condemned second because it is treating some other than a statistical ratio as a thing to be argued about. No: as to God, open your eyes - and your heart, which is also a perceptive organ - and you see him. But you may ask, Don't you admit there are any delusions? Yes: I may think a thing is black, and on close examination it may turn out to be bottle- green. But I cannot think a thing is black if there is no such thing to be seen as black. Neither can I think that a certain action is self- sacrificing, if no such thing as self-sacrifice exists, although it may be very rare. It is the nominalists, and the nominalists alone, who indulge in such scepticism, which the scientific method utterly condemns." - Charles Peirce, founder of Pragmatism ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:26:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: "Tool A Magazine" available now! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Announcing in the right corner..."Tool a Magazine" "Available right now!!!" via mail!!!! and also at St. Marks Bookstore in NYCity *The first issue of "Tool a Magazine" is available now for 6 $ postage paid* !!!!The first issue is 90 pages and includes great work from the following!!!! Charles Bernstein, Aram Saroyan, Keston Sutherland, Jordan Davis, Brenda Iijima, Robert Kelly, Pierre Joris, Bobbie West, Harriet Zinnes, Gary Sullivan, Leslie Scalapino, Chris Fonkhauser, Joel Lewis, Patrick F. Durgin, Anselm Berrigan, Jeff Clark, MTC Cronin, Chris Stroffolino, Jason Lynn, M. Kettner, and Michael McColl. This poetry magazine-journal is based out of Albany, NY and is paid for entirely by the editors, Lori Quillen and Erik Sweet. Our Party at Teachers and Writers was amazingly fun and much thanks to the readers! **Pierre Joris, Anselm Berrigan, Jordan Davis, and Eleni Sikelianos** *who were all fantastic!!!* Special thanks to Pierre's son Miles for breaking the Pinata!!! Special Thanks to Teachers and Writers and Jordan Davis for giving us the space for the party it was a blast! Please make any checks out to Lori Quillen next issue.... to be printed in October 1998 so send submisions! "Tool a Magazine" "Tool A Magazine" "Tool a Magazine" ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 18:43:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Re: Jornal de Poesia Comments: cc: angelo@JULIAN.UWO.CA In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" in _Anthology of Concrete Poetry_, (Emmett Williams, ed.; Something Else Press 1967) There's an english version of "Servida~o de passagem", frm Edwin Morgan... > >...i'm still looking for a translation or h. de campos' "transient servitude" >so if you come across one please back channel me. > >thanks, >kevin h. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 17:29:01 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII im offended. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:59:46 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: location location location Content-Type: text/plain w/out fearing to sound too grouchy-- let me say that any location other than that one Michaux speaks of I often find a hindrance. (but need I hasten to add that hindrances sometimes can be USEFUL)??? -Mark >toddbaron wrote: > >> a question posed to the group: >> >> how does "location" (the "local" --Olson) >> affect or help affect yr writing? > >Todd: >Here is an excerpt from a still raw (read rough draft) translation of >Michaux (thanks to Anselm), which speaks to my experience of location. >Location is a changing constant (does that make it an everpresent >variable?) and thus always influential, always useful. What's really >interesting to me is the location within oneself (or joe's self) that >external locations and situations may affect. For instance, the ugliest >wallpaper in the world, found in a Las Vegas hotel, *does something* to >the mind which then goes its own ways... > >The Michaux: >"There is a place in the body where one prefers to live. It’s not the >same >for everyone. That’s normal. But it is normal for many to like to stay >in >their heads. They go about, of course, move around, from organ to >organ, >hither and yon, but they like to return often to their heads." >-- >Laura Wright >Library Assistant >Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute >2130 Arapahoe Ave >Boulder, CO 80302 >(303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * >"All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * >"It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 16:43:21 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: je est un autre Content-Type: text/plain Je est un auteur. Signed, Joe >My word-processing spell check translates "je" as "Joe." I propose we adopt >joe as the universal pronoun. > >-- >Laura Wright >Library Assistant >Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute >2130 Arapahoe Ave >Boulder, CO 80302 >(303) 546-3547 > * * * * * * >"All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan > * * * * * * >"It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 20:37:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: "Tool a Magazine" address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The address to order "Tool a Magazine" is: "Tool a Magazine" P.O. Box 3125 Albany, New York 12203 Sorry I forgot! Checks payable to Lori Quillen, 6 $ erik sweet ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:22:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >im offended. Dear R M Daley, I find this kind of post utterly useless and a painful waste of time. No context, no substance. I've begun to automatically delete this kind of post from the various lists that I listen to, when I figure out the sort of people who like this sort of thing, and who are prone to it. If you want me to read your posts, please give me a reason to. Otherwise, deletion will be automatic. GT ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 19 Aug 1998 21:45:05 +0000 Reply-To: mdevaney@nebraskapress.unl.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mj devaney Organization: University of Nebraska Press Subject: Re: _Economist_ piece on the state of poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thought the list might find this interesting. --MJ Devaney _____________________________________________________________ Economist December 20, 1997 MODERN VERSE Poetic injustice WHAT ever happened to poetry? Once poets spoke for the age and strutted the cultural stage as stars. What would European romanticism have been without Byron or Schiller? French symbolism without Rimbaud or Baudelaire? Anglo-American modernism without Eliot or Pound? It is easy now to forget just how ubiquitous poetry once was, and how central to the cultivated life. Schoolchildren were compelled to memorise long stanzas, until the rhythms of Tennyson or Longfellow were inscribed indelibly upon young minds. New poetry was reviewed as widely as novels, biographies and cookbooks are today. Now-forgotten poets such as America's John Greenleaf Whittier could become as famous, sometimes on the strength of a single poem, as actors, tycoons or politicians. Verse was humorous, populist, narrative, satirical or polemical; it was lyrical, personal or learnedly esoteric. Great occasions were marked by poems whose phrases sometimes entered the language, at least for a while. Walt Whitman's "When lilacs last in the door-yard bloom'd" mourned the death of Abraham Lincoln. Robert Frost's reading of "The Gift Outright" dignified the inauguration of John Kennedy. All that, however, was a long time ago. Today, contemporary poetry seems more akin to collecting butterflies, painting-by-numbers or gazing at stars: a nice pursuit for enthusiasts, but of little significance to anyone else. For many, the only poems that matter are advertising jingles, pop-music lyrics or rap music. Yet, to most people, song lyrics and rap remain one thing, poetry another. Whatever odd forms it may take, poetry is still usually assumed to consist of words to be spoken or read on their own, relished for their sound and meaning, not merely as an accompaniment to music, dancing or the latest pop video. Old-fashioned, just-the-words poetry continues to matter in places where artistic expression is repressed. This year, Index on Censorship, which chronicles the worldwide persecution of writers, devoted its 25th anniversary issue to poets. They can still end up in jail in Turkey, Iran, China and many African countries: the jackboot still fears the quill pen. But when repression has ended, interest in poetry often evaporates. Russia is the home of such poet-heroes as Mandelstam, Akhmatova, Pasternak and Brodsky; officially tolerated poets there once filled football stadiums and people once risked their freedom, and sometimes their lives, to read something new by a forbidden hand. Today Russia seems to have turned its back on contemporary poetry, now that made-for-television movies, hamburger joints and other temptations are available. In America and Britain, two countries with great poetic traditions and equally great poetic freedom, poetry has become more than culturally marginalised: it has fallen off the map. It is rarely reviewed in the pages of newspapers or popular magazines. Most big publishers, under pressure from their corporate bean-counters, dropped their poetry lists long ago. The money-man, however, is no more dangerous to verse than is the modernist, with his avant-garde ethos and public-be-damned attitude. Contemporary poetry is often obscure or self-referential, neither scans nor rhymes nor tells a story, is impossible to memorise, is often about the act of writing poetry itself, is humourless, and can be more like a puzzle than a poem. Small wonder that so many general readers, even those who lap up novels or buy theatre tickets or visit art galleries, have given up on contemporary poetry. When was the last time you bought a book of contemporary poetry? Can you remember even one poem by a living poet? More poems, less poetry Here arises a puzzle. Ironically, as poetry has become less significant as a cultural form, more of it has been produced. In America the explosive growth of creative-writing courses in colleges and universities has produced tens of thousands of "credentialed" poets. Most of them want to see their work in print, even if few people actually read it. Hundreds of small magazines and presses exist to oblige them, usually publishing their work in minute quantities. Len Fulton of Dustbooks, which publishes the Small Press Review, receives books from 300 new small presses and another 300 new magazines each month. Many little publishers do not survive long. But more than 1,400 magazines and 800 small presses do last long enough to find their way into Mr Fulton's biannual "Directory of Poetry Publishers". "I've been doing this for years and I still find it amazing how much is published," he says. "Why do they do it?" The Internet, too, has produced a Niagara of self-publication by aspiring poets. This flood of versifying flows year in, year out: and it is almost completely unnoticed by the rest of the world. Some of the verse is good. But for a general reader wanting to sample it, the sheer volume is intimidating. To find something rewarding, the curious outsider has to plough through piles of dross, with little to guide him. Ask for advice, and an expert happily rattles off a list of names. Unfortunately, a second poetic expert will come up with an entirely different list. Third expert, third list. There are some fine poets writing today, but most people, with so many other claims on their time, can be forgiven for not finding them. People power So is poetry doomed forever to be like knitting, only less fun? Maybe not. Surprisingly, in the past few years it has begun to make something of a comeback. And the comeback has been led, not by more publications, but by more public readings. In the 1990s, poetry readings have become hip. Pioneered by places such as the Nuyorican Café in Manhattan, readings have spread to most large British and American cities, and are being staged not only in universities and schools but in libraries, bookshops, cafés and bars. Many are no longer the soporific, reverential affairs of the past, but lively, even boisterous, events. Some readings attract hundreds of people. One regular feature is an "open mike", an invitation to anyone to read or improvise. In America, poetry "slams" have become popular. Slam audiences, often of 200 or more, give each poem a "score" after it is read, until a final winner emerges in a "read-off". Perhaps the ultimate slam is a contest staged every June in Taos, New Mexico, to find the "Heavyweight Champion of Poetry". Quincy Troupe, the champion for two consecutive years (1994-95), describes an enthusiastic audience of "thousands" of people paying $15-20 to attend a week of readings which culminate in the "bout". The two contenders read a poem each for nine "rounds", which are scored for the audience by three judges. In the final round, the two poets have to improvise a poem from a word pulled out of a hat. The victor, cheered or jeered by the crowd, is awarded a trophy and heavyweight belt. For some people, such razzmatazz is a long way from what poetry is, or should be, about. Mr Troupe, however, disagrees. He is a two-time winner of the American Book Award and a professor of literature and creative writing at the University of California in San Diego, and he sees no inherent contradiction between showmanship and seriousness. "I write for the page," he says. "Any poet worth his salt does. But I think you can have mastery, you can have thought-provoking, difficult poems, and still be able to lift the poem off the page for an audience. And if you're going to read in front of people, you've got to give them a real performance." Is the vogue for public reading merely a fad, the final debasement of poetry as a pretentious sort of cabaret? Or is it the beginning of a genuine revival? The answer depends on what you think went wrong in the first place. It depends, that is, on whether poets are responsible for their own isolation, or whether poetry was doomed anyway to be shoved aside by television and films and popular music and web-surfing. "A little province for yourself" That question has long divided the poetry world. In 1991 Dana Gioia, a poet (and former marketing manager for General Foods), set off a fierce debate in American poetry circles with an attack on American academia for turning poetry into a smug, producer-driven lobby, concerned only with its own survival and indifferent to the fact that it had alienated a wider audience. In an article entitled "Can Poetry Matter?", published in the Atlantic Monthly (and later elaborated in a book of the same title, published by the Graywolf Press), Mr Gioia lambasted the creative-writing establishment for loss of critical nerve, back-scratching and complacency. "The proliferation of literary journals and presses over the past 30 years has been a response less to an increased appetite for poetry among the public than to the desperate need of writing teachers for professional validation," he wrote. "Like subsidised farming that grows food no one wants, a poetry industry has been created to serve the interests of the producers and not the consumers. And in the process the integrity of the art has been betrayed." The wounds his words inflicted are still raw. When asked about Mr Gioia's argument, David Fenza--the director of Associated Writing Programs, which represents creative-writing teachers in academia--speaks of "smarmy little putzes that are blinded by their own presumptions." He flatly rejects Mr Gioia's criticisms. "They just don't make sense," Mr Fenza says. "The spread of writing programmes represents the democratisation of the arts. Creative writing is so attractive to students because it is one way of exercising the efficacy of the human will. There's an awful lot in our society that tells people that they don't have a free choice, that they can't make a difference. You can create a little province for yourself in a work of art, where your choices are paramount. That's a wonderful place to be." It must be, because 11,000 American students choose to work for degrees in creative writing every year, according to Mr Fenza, of whom about half "do poetry". The number of American universities offering creative-writing degrees has quadrupled in the past 20 years to 285. Mr Fenza blames a "stupefaction and dumbing-down of the media" for its indifference to poetry, and does not believe that the creative-writing industry itself bears any of the responsibility, or even that poetry has been marginalised. Mr Gioia remains unrepentant. Writing programmes are highly profitable for universities, he argues: hence their growth. They require no expensive laboratories, workshops or computers, just a room and a teacher. Students like creative writing because they cannot fail, since self-expression is difficult to mark. One result, Mr Gioia says, is a generation of professional poets with little experience of life outside full-time education. "The average academic poet has been in school since the age of six," he says. This hardly favours adventurousness or diversity. The reaction to his article and book, Mr Gioia says, showed that "there is a huge reservoir of interest in poetry out there, but most people feel cut off from what they see as official culture." He was deluged with letters. People from all walks of life, including housewives, ranchers, even a Hollywood producer and a UN ambassador, wrote to support his attack on the poetry subculture. Many, he says, complained that he had not gone far enough. "These people felt deprived of something important." Baudelaire on the Frigidaire For Mr Gioia, the sudden boom in public readings over the past few years has vindicated his view that the poetry establishment has been smothering a wider audience for poetry. "It happened completely outside the academy," he says. "The experts were taken by surprise." He is greatly encouraged by the popularity of rap ("the metre of Beowulf with African-American syncopation on top"), and by the recent rediscovery of such as "cowboy poetry", for which there are now 200 festivals a year (horses get in free). Mr Gioia himself is one of a group of "new formalist" poets returning to traditional poetic forms. There is other evidence that a wider public is interested in poetry, even if not in the fare offered by many contemporary poets. How else to explain the success of Dave Kapell, a former English major and sometime songwriter in Minneapolis? Four years ago he stumbled upon the idea of selling little boxes of word magnets that people can use to compose poems on the doors of their refrigerators. Since then, sales of his "Magnetic Poetry" kits have soared. He currently ships 50,000 kits a month and expects sales of the kits and related merchandise to reach $6.5m this year. "Many people start out by creating something pretty juvenile, often something obscene," admits Mr Kapell, "but most quickly start to take it more seriously." One who takes "magnetic poetry" seriously is Robert Pinsky, America's current poet laureate. He has written the preface to a new American anthology (from Workman Publishing) of ordinary people's "magnetic" poems, which he praises as true popular art, "the compositions of actual American people, produced not for profit but for the fun of it, to satisfy that peculiar, deep itch to make something new." (In fact, much of the collection proves that, although many people do have that peculiar, deep itch, they should probably scratch it in private.) The enthusiasm for posted poetry extends also to public transport. Poems on London's underground trains have enriched dreary commutes for a decade. A collection of these short poems, by contemporary poets as well as long-dead masters, has sold more than 250,000 copies (Cassell), and underground systems from Sydney to Stockholm have followed London's lead, as have buses in American cities. Britain's Poetry Society recently received a £450,000 grant from National Lottery funds to place poets (not just poems) in public parks, health centres, libraries, bookshops and zoos, as well as in schools. Poets are finding work in prisons, schools and companies, helping people to express their thoughts and feelings. More than a hanky As heartening as all this is for poets, who are usually grateful for any attention or gainful employment, a vogue for poetry as therapy is not quite the same as a revival of poetry as art. Composing poems on one's refrigerator door, or on the wall of one's prison cell, may bring comfort. But does it really spread a genuine interest in poetry, or is it just another gimmick for the emotionally constipated and the underworked? And does anyone but the author really want to read the poems produced? Viv Beeby, the producer of the BBC's "Poetry Please", a long-running radio programme which invites requests from listeners, reports that most listeners ask for old favourites learned in school, not for new poems. "People still seem to turn to poetry in times of crisis, when they can't find the words to express their feelings," she says. "I suspect that most of our listeners don't read poetry at other times." Verses on headstones and in Valentine's Day cards have always been popular. But surely poetry, if it is to matter as an art form, has to be something more than a verbal handkerchief for life's weepy moments? No doubt it is too much to expect that poets will ever again be cultural avatars, or that legions of readers will clamour for the next verse epic from some successor to Milton or Pope or Tennyson. And yet poetry need not, perhaps, have been pushed quite so far to the sidelines. Serious playwrights and novelists still find an audience, and they still occasionally make people sit up and listen. By comparison, too many poets seem to have lost the ability, or in many cases the desire, to reach readers outside their coterie, beyond their "little province of the self". The beauty of a surprising image; moments of revelation or contemplation; the pleasure of a well-turned or oft-remembered phrase: these are satisfactions that poetry, above all other arts, can offer. Society can afford to ignore contemporary poetry, and poets can complacently accept their isolation. But if that is how it is to be, something valuable will have been lost--valuable beyond words. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 01:37:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ken|n|ing Subject: Re: _Economist_ piece on the state of poetry Comments: To: mj devaney In-Reply-To: <35DB4761.67F7@nebraskapress.unl.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII << WHAT ever happened to poetry? Once poets spoke for the age and strutted the cultural stage as stars. What would European romanticism have been without Byron or Schiller? French symbolism without Rimbaud or Baudelaire? Anglo-American modernism without Eliot or Pound?>> Scanning this article, I thought of Myung Mi Kim interviewed in Tripwire #1, finding a context for poetry, especially as she touches on a theory of "generosity" (which I'm not prepared to try and paraphrase) whereas the above article discusses the glut of small press publications. Frankly, mention of Pound (whom it is always safe to assume your contentious press-citizen has not read) alone contradicts what can only be the unsafe assumptions put forth in the second sentence. The way "poetry" is being considered in this article, by this author, allows for it to only be contextualized one way, negatively. Why, then, does this article matter? Whatever the statistics, which are fraudulent at best, I imagine, in any reasonable summation of a poetry's effectiveness in the social/civic sphere, the poem is no longer a site of knowing but is expected to be what none of the above cited authors ever truly were, affirming. Hypocrite reader, Patrick F. Durgin | | k e n n i n g````````````````|`````````````````````````````````` a newsletter of contemporary |poetry, poetics, and non-fiction writing |418 Brown St. #10 Iowa City, IA 52245 USA ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:59:12 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: bp would have liked this MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:54:45 +0800 >X-MSMail-Priority: Normal >Subject: Fw: scroll down >From: "Lubica Ucnik" >To: >X-List: film-philosophy@mailbase.ac.uk >X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'leave film-philosophy' to mailbase@mailbase.ac.uk >X-List-Unsubscribe: >Reply-To: film-philosophy@mailbase.ac.uk >Sender: film-philosophy-request@mailbase.ac.uk >Errors-To: film-philosophy-request@mailbase.ac.uk >Precedence: list > >> >>> >>> HOLD THE DOWN THE SCROLL ARROW AND KEEP GOING >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi peopl e >> >>> >>> * 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people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi p e ople >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * hi people >> >>> >>> * STOP SCROLLING ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 00:58:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >im offended. Is that habitual? Or have you been offended by something specific? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:43:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: from "Henry Gould" at Aug 19, 98 05:35:12 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit from Henry's quote from Peirce: "...Now such being the pragamticist's answer to the question what he means by the word "God", the question whether there really is such a being is the question whether all physical science is merely the figment - the arbitrary fig ment - of the students of nature, and further whether the _one_ lesson of Gautama Boodha, Confucius, Socrates, and all who from any point of view have had their ways of conduct determined by meditation upon the physico-psychical universe, be only their arbitrary notion or be the Truth behind the appear-ances which the frivolous man does not think of; and whether the superhuman courage which such contemplation has conferred upon priests who go to pass their lives with lepers and refuse all offer of rescue is mere silly fanaticism the passion of a baby, or whether it is strength derived from the power of the truth." Thanks for this Henry I think it opens up much, though it's also a slippery slope, as Peirce must have recognized: he's relying on one of James's arguments from The Varieties of Religious Experience, namely, that God is "real" b/c, as a concept, he's been damn *useful* (why else bring in the sacrifical priests and lepers for back-up?) As James put it in Pragmatism, "how could pragmatism possibly deny God's existence? She could see no meaning in treating as 'not true' a notion that was pragmatically so successful." Or, as he wrote once to Oliver Wendell Holmes, "If God is dead or at least irrelevant, ditto everything pertaining to the beyong" (this is, incidentally, *13 yrs* before Nietzsche's famous pronouncement). Now, you can see where this is headed: James likes "God" but he's setting up a situation where the old boy has to earn his keep. Needless to say, any Christain w/ even remotely fundamentalist leanings would throw a shit fit over this logic. Now, back to Peirce: he makes a somewhat different point, a kind of "18 million people can't be wrong" point (this is the number of people who bought Celine Dion's Titanic soundtrack, and so is quite obviously not true); but he also leans toward James in describing the cultural work that the concept does (the Priest's faith sends him to the leper). I wouldn't disagree entirely, but I'd want to bend the point somewhat - the key term to me is "faith" not "God." One always here's on television that people who believe in God have longer life spans than people who don't: but, not surprisingly, the media always leaves out a key, related finding, namely, that atheists of conviction (people who really "believe" in atheism) live just as long - it's us doubting, ambivalent suckers that die early, most likely from the wear and tear of stress. Now, again, what have we done to poor old "God" if we say, yes, let's keep him around, he relieves stress and increases our life span: one could say the same about a good jog in the park. And as for that priest, well, I wouldn't want to be in an argument where I had to argue for the good done in the name of God against someone arguing for the bad. All I mean to suggest here is that once Pierce or James brings the pragmatic method to a discussion of God, God is in trouble; you start to see the writing on the wall. At the same time, I think one needs "God-terms" whose success are measured by how they operate in the culture, what they do, how they motivate. Dewey's God-term, in this sense, is "democracy," as it is for Ralph Ellison, as it is, I would say, for Cornel West. This doesn't make "democracy" any more true than "God" - and I'd agree w/ Jameson that democracy never in fact "exists," though I'd disagree with the conclusions he draws from this fact about its efficacy as a term. As an active symbol, I think democracy still earns its keep (though I like to add things to it eg, "plebeian democracy" "radical democracy"). "God" I'm less sure about. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:12:31 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:43:01 -0400 from Well, Mike, some good points there - but basically you're repeating what Peirce himself said in the part you didn't quote: anybody who starts to prove God's existence or attributes immediately gets into trouble. - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:16:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: _Economist_ piece on the state of poetry Comments: To: mdevaney@nebraskapress.unl.edu In-Reply-To: <35DB4761.67F7@nebraskapress.unl.edu> from "mj devaney" at Aug 19, 98 09:45:05 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Doesn't this idiot read Glamour magazine!?! (as a whole his piece represents most of the things in the world that I hate...at least until I have one more cup of coffee and reach equilibrium...) -m. "In America and Britain, two countries with great poetic traditions and equally great poetic freedom, poetry has become more than culturally marginalised: it has fallen off the map. It is rarely reviewed in the pages of newspapers or popular magazines. Most big publishers, under pressure from their corporate bean-counters, dropped their poetry lists long ago." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:18:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: from "henry" at Aug 20, 98 08:12:31 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit touche' According to henry: > > Well, Mike, some good points there - but basically you're repeating what > Peirce himself said in the part you didn't quote: anybody who starts to > prove God's existence or attributes immediately gets into trouble. > - Henry > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:40:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Bullworth Comments: cc: kjohnson@STUDENT.HIGHLAND.CC.IL.US MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit kjohnson@STUDENT.HIGHLAND.CC.IL.US writes: >>It's a strange and fascinating movie. >>Some critics say it's profoundly racist. Others say it's the most >>leftist and subversive thing ever done in Hollywood. >>Can it be both? Leftists historically have never been immune from racism. And racism can certainly be subversive. But to this viewer Bullsworth wasn't even superficially racist. In fact it was profoundly anti-racist! Now Saving Private Ryan, that was racist! By the way, according to Yevgeny Yevtushenko it was Warren Beatty who, before the fall of the Soviet Union, smuggled the manuscript of YY's Silver and Steel: 20th Century Russian Poetry, out of Russia and plunked it down on somebody's desk at Doubleday. Pub. in 1993. So it's only natural that when he needed a chorus he turned to Amiri Baraka (sp?). Perhaps Warren Beatty should be given an Honorary Membership in the Poetics List, eh? dwm "I never speak to anyone under grade 11." - Overheard on Wellesley Street near Jarvis Collegiate. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:10:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: more recent economist article MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The infuriatingly dull-witted piece on the state of poetry collaged-in here is from the end of 1997, The Economist's Xmas special. While it is bad, it is old bad. There is an article in last week's Economist (the one with Old Glory full of bulletholes) reviewing David Lehman's new history of the New York School, _The Last Avant Garde_. Also discussed are Ashbery's new collection, Amy Clampitt and Raymond Carver's collecteds, and Mark Doty's new book. Why do people keep saying John Ashbery's poetry is difficult and humorless? Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 09:12:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: reactionary query In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:18:18 -0400 from On Thu, 20 Aug 1998 08:18:18 -0400 Michael Magee said: >touche' > >According to henry: >> >> Well, Mike, some good points there - but basically you're repeating what >> Peirce himself said in the part you didn't quote: anybody who starts to >> prove God's existence or attributes immediately gets into trouble. >> - Henry the part in Peirce about the uselessness of argument in this sphere sounds a lot like Whitman. Both of them had Emersonian affinities; Peirce came out of a Boston family with Transcendentalist connections. But Nicolas of Cusa (ca.1440) in _Of Learned Ignorance_ seems better to me than all of them on these issues. - Henry Gould [p.s. oh-oh - I see Jordan has sent a post - now I'm in for it!! - back to the real world, monks!!] ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 07:48:06 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: james perez Subject: brasil Content-Type: text/plain to whomever was looking for things brazilian for _Samizdat_ (sorry lost the original post and the computer is crash-happy today), check this site out http://www.ekac.org/ it's one home of Eduardo Kac...he was born/grew up in Brazil and has done a lot of interesting things, mostly multimedia/technology...know that hyperpoetry stuff...now he teaches at School of the Arts Institute Chicago, or at least last I heard; if he can't provide you with stuff itself, maybe he knows some real live brazilians who can and as a post-script to my tech problems of today, I of course had my address book set up so that it sent this message originally to the listserv command post, trying again. jperez ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:08:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Regarding Civility on the List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To David McFadden: I would have thought it was obvious to anyone that the recent message posted by Laura Wright to the List regarding Todd Baron was a regrettable mistake, meant to be private, and mortifying to its sender. A MISTAKE. My post was meant to reflect my renewed belief in poetic justice and an exercising of my poetic License to Kill. Your reactions, with their gems from Bartlett's, are just silly. I would like to say that I am sloppy and stupid and that many of my ideals, ideas, and values are puppy-dog. I am often very lonely. Big deal. And as to your use of quotation, you're playing with fire. A panhandler walks up to a Wall Street financier and asks for a handout. Wall Street says, "Neither a borrower nor a lender be. William Shakespeare." The panhandler replies, "Fuck you! David Mamet." PB ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 13:43:59 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: more recent economist article Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes, Jordan, and the new _Economist_ article says something about Mark Doty's being "the finest American poet since Robert Lowell." Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:06:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: Need Persons and Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit First off: need MTC Cronin to backchannel with Australian ground address another thing that is:Poetics Journal, ed by Lyn Hejinian and Watten, is this available online via the EPC? erik ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 14:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" Subject: Re: Need Persons and Poetry In-Reply-To: <6c5bbc75.35dc659b@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Erik, Unfortunately this is not available at the EPC, though it sure seems it would be a good thing. -- Loss Glazier At 02:06 PM 8/20/98 -0400, you wrote: >First off: need MTC Cronin to backchannel with Australian ground address > >another thing that is:Poetics Journal, ed by Lyn Hejinian and Watten, > >is this available online via the EPC? > >erik > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 16:30:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: Need Persons and Poetry/Cats Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I visited Bard to meet Scalapino in July and watched Watten give a lecture/reading....He gave out free xeroxed copies of Poetics Journal and mine was missing pages...I really enjoyed the piece done by Rod Smith using lines from old CIA manuels that he had found in the Washington DC area. My missing pages had Scalapino, Watten on HEttie Jones and Arkadii Dragomoshenko. Where can i order it, Small Press Distribution? Anyone have an good feedback on the new Bernadette Mayer book "Another Smashed Pinecone," we picked it up this weekend in ny and it is great- good cover.... Oh yeah, this one writer, Travis Ortiz has a piece in the Poetics Journal that is interesting, "from variously, not then" he also has a piece he sent to me for "Tool a Magazine" which is equally interesting and we plan to put in numero # 2. see ya erik sweet ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 15:31:51 -0500 Reply-To: jlm8047@usl.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jerry McGuire Organization: USL Subject: deep south newsletter 2, schedule & registration Comments: To: Walt McDonald , Wendell Mayo , Wendell Ricketts , William Ryan , William Sylvester , William Trowbridge <0100470@ACAD.NWMISSOURI.EDU>, Zach Smith , William Pitt Root and Pamela Uschuk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit NEWSLETTER OF THE DEEP SOUTH WRITERS CONFERENCE Volume 4 Number 2 Summer 1998 ANNOUNCING THE THIRTY-EIGHTH ANNUAL FALL DEEP SOUTH WRITERS CONFERENCE SEPTEMBER 24-27, 1998 The English Department of the University of Southwestern Louisiana is pleased to announce what is likely to be the liveliest Deep South Writers Conference ever. It is loaded with special events and features that will make it possible for everyone attending-every writer, fan, and student of great writing-to connect with our visiting writers and our own fine writing community in ways that will be both entertaining and profitable. Many of the events at this year's conference will focus on an outdoor motif, emphasizing literary and artistic approaches to nature. An extraordinary range of nature essayists, poets, and photographers will be available to meet with registrants for a weekend of workshops and readings. Here are some of the things we've got planned: •A screening of the gripping neo-noir film The Last Seduction, followed by a discussion with its writer, Steve Barancik •An exhibition of collaborative art-works by photographers and poets •Panels, lectures, and workshops on genre writing, nature writing, journaling, the teaching of creative writing, and interart collaboration •A special folklore panel treating questions of Death and Dying in literature (featuring an exhibition of poems and photographs of Mexican roadside shrines organized by New Mexico artist Paige DeShong) •A return visit to Louisiana by William Pitt Root •The debut of a special Nature edition of Many Mountains Moving •A panel of editors who will discuss the question, Who wants what I write? •A Saturday Night "Poetry Crawl" (read on, read on . . . ) All this is in addition to our yearly readings by some of the best writers in the country. This year's distinguished visitors will include screenwriter Steve Barancik, Novelist Jodi Picoult, nature writer David Gessner, mystery writer Brian Andrew Laird, poet William Pitt Root, and poet and journal writer Pamela Uschuk. And as always, this year's conference will benefit from the participation of USL's creative writing faculty, including Joe Andriano, Darrell Bourque, Herb Fackler, Skip Fox, George Clark, Mark Lewandowski, Jerry McGuire, Burton Raffel, Denise Rogers, David Thibodaux, and Luis Alberto Urrea. USL folklorists Barry Ancelet and Marcia Gaudet will also participate in the conference, as will USL graduate students. Finally, we are especially delighted to announce that USL's celebrated writer-in residence, Ernest Gaines, will give a featured reading. Our Featured Writers Jodi Picoult is a critically-acclaimed author of five novels, including this year's The Pact, a novel about teen suicide and how it affects the family. Her work focuses on themes of love, family, marriage, and motherhood while examining current issues such as suicide, euthanasia, and unexpected pregnancy. Her books include Harvesting the Heart, Mercy, Picture Perfect, and Songs of the Humpback Whale. She lives in New Hampshire with her husband and three small children, and jokes she is well-versed in the juggling act of "writing while passing out sippy cups." She will offer a fiction workshop on Friday and a craft lecture and reading on Saturday, in addition to other conference activities open to registrants. William Pitt Root is one of the premier poets in the United States. His work originates from the Beat milieu, but his nature-based poetry reflects affiliations with some of our great environmental poets, such as Gary Snyder and William Stafford. Faultdancing, Root's latest collection of poems, was selected for the recent Pitt Poetry Prize. He is the author of nearly a dozen other books of poetry. Dividing his time equally between New York City and Tucson, Arizona, he is a professor at Hunter College, while serving as official Poet Laureate of Tucson. Brian Andrew Laird, a life-long native of the Sonoran Desert region, is a mystery writer, naturalist, editor, and short-story author. He is a fast rising member of the emerging "new mystery" community, and translates his expertise in the natural world to his novels and short stories. Laird's books include Bowman's Line, To Bury the Dead, and the forthcoming Best Shot. He is currently editing the special Nature issue of the literary journal Many Mountains Moving. Laird also serves as a freelance editor for the University of Arizona Press and teaches writing workshops and English classes both at the University of Arizona and Pima Community College. Laird will offer a craft lecture/workshop in mystery writing and a reading on Friday, and will participate in panels on Saturday and Sunday. Pamela Uschuk will be offering a special workshop in journal writing and its role in the writer's life. A poet and fiction writer, she is currently co-writing a journaling book with poet Joy Harjo. Uschuk also teaches creative writing workshops and English classes in a wide variety of venues-at the university level, in community centers, and on Native American reservations in the west. Her numerous publications have garnered her several awards, including the Chester H. Jones Award in 1989. The wife of William Pitt Root, her own books of poetry include Without Birds, Without Flowers, Without Trees. David Gessner, author of A Wild, Rank Place: One Year on Cape Cod, lives on Cape Cod with his wife, writer Marina de Gramont. His work, which combines nature writing and memoir, has been published in such distinguished publications as Creative Nonfiction, The Boston Globe, Literal Latté, Exquisite Corpse, and Puerto del Sol. One of his essays, "Going Outward," was winner of the 1997 Associated Writing Programs Intro Journals Award. The University of Arizona Press will publish his most recent book, Under the Devil's Thumb, in June 1999. At Deep South he will read from his work, and give a craft lecture on nature writing, and join with Pamela Uschuck in a workshop on nature writing. Special Feature: Film Noir and Screen Writing This year's conference will open on Thursday night, September 24th, with a special on-campus screening of acclaimed Tucson-based screenwriter Steve Barancik's 1994 film The Last Seduction, a wild and ruthless thriller that expertly captures the cold, darkly paranoid heart of the film noir genre. Barancik conducts frequent workshops on the art of screen writing and has made numerous appearances at film festivals nation-wide to discuss the craft, mood, and texture of film noir. Screenwriting hopefuls are strongly encouraged to attend Thursday night's screening of The Last Seduction, after which Barancik will host a discussion of the film. On Saturday, Barancik will give a craft lecture/workshop and take part in a panel on the genre voice, open to conference registrants. Panels Once again this year, the Deep South Writers Conference will present panels designed to allow conference participants to express their concerns and interests as writers and scholars. While all details have not been concluded as of this date, we expect presentations on creative writing pedagogy, on interart collaboration, and on writing and publishing genre fiction. Special Feature: Panel of Editors In addition, we have invited a diverse gathering of literary editors from every level of the professional publishing experience for an open and frank discussion of the sorts of writing editors seek today. As the publishing world continues in its present state of turmoil, a few hours spent in the company of such editors will prove invaluable for the aspiring writer. The roster will include: Literary Journal: Naomi Horii and Luis Urrea (Many Mountains Moving), Jack Bedell (Louisiana Literature) Literary/Scholarly: Jerry McGuire (Terra Poetica, Audit, College Literature) Freelance/Small Press: Brian Andrew Laird Daily Newspaper: Curtis Coughlan (The Daily Advertiser) University Press: Judith Allen of University of Arizona Press Intensive Writing Workshops Most published authors agree that critical discussion of works-in-progress is an essential component of the writing process. The Conference offers intensive writing workshops for conference participants, encouraging reader response and fresh criticism on manuscripts in progress. Workshop registrants will critique their own work as well as the work of their peers under the guidance of an experienced writer. Manuscripts are examined in preparation for publication, and serious writers of all levels are encouraged to enroll. Participants receive copies of all manuscripts written by fellow workshop participants in advance with instructions on how to review and respond to them. Intensive writing workshops will be conducted by visiting writers in poetry and short fiction, and by USL writer Martha Hixon in children's fiction. In addition, the Council for the Development of French in Louisiana will sponsor a workshop for poetry and fiction in French. Enrollment in the workshops is limited to ten participants per workshop on a first-come basis, and involves a supplementary fee of $40 for each workshop. If the demand for workshops exceeds expectations, additional workshops will be scheduled. Writers wishing to enroll in one or more of these workshops should send their manuscripts to: Dr. Jerry McGuire Deep South Writers Conference English Department, Box 44691 Lafayette, LA 70504-4691. For poetry manuscripts, please submit 3 poems, typed. For prose manuscripts, submit up to 15 pages typed, double-spaced. Do the Poetry Crawl In keeping with our outdoor emphasis, writers and artists are encouraged to come with nature and the environment in mind. As before, the graduate students in the Creative Writing Concentration will host an open-microphone reading for all conference participants who would like to read from their work. This year's open reading will feature its own outdoor dimension, however, as members are encouraged to join in a moveable feast of readings in selected venues in the Lafayette community. After Saturday night's reading Jodi Picoult and Ernest Gaines, we'll gather up our forces and move from place to place (at each of these good food and/or drink will be available for the hungry, thirsty gang), giving open readings as we go. Come learn a little more about Lafayette's literary scene, and be part of the most literate floating opera in the state! The Deep South Writers Conference Contest Results As in years past, the winners of the various categories of the Deep South Writers Conference Contests will be honored at a special ceremony preceding Friday night's reading by Brian Andrew Laird and William Pitt Root. The winning authors in the categories of Short Fiction, Young Adult Fiction, Children's Fiction, Novel, French Poetry, and French Prose will be announced, as will the winners of the Ethel Harvey Award (Nonfiction), the John Z. Bennett Award (Poetry), the Paul T. Nolan Award (One-Act Play), and the James H. Wilson Award (Full-Length Play). Winners, contenders, and future hopefuls are encouraged to attend the ceremonies. After the reading, we'll convene at David Thibodaux's house for refreshments, where the editors (and many of the writers) of the special Nature issue of Many Mountains will unveil their work. Special Events Thursday: •Film: The Last Seduction Friday: •Presentation of the special Nature issue of Many Mountains Moving Saturday: •The Poetry Crawl Thursday-Sunday •Video: Six Louisiana Artists Speak Out (interviews/discussion featuring poet Darrell Bourque, photographer Debbie Caffery, songwriter David Egan, dancer Cissy Whipp, and visual artists Elmore Morgan and Francis Pavy). •Exhibition: Interart Collaborations between poets and photographers, organized by Lynda Frese and Jerry McGuire •Exhibition: Photographs of Mexican roadside crosses and shrines by Paige DeShong, with poems by border poets in response to the photographs (presented in connection with the folklore panel on Cemeteries, Death & Dying, and Creative Writers) Conference Registration: How to Be a Part of the Weekend There is a $40.00 registration for the conference which rises to $50.00 after September 11th. The Deep South Writers Conference is one of the most affordable writing conferences in the United States, due in large part to the support received from sponsors, without whom a gathering of talent like this would not be possible. The program is supported by a grant from the Louisiana Division of the Arts, by a Partnership Award from the Acadiana Arts Council, and by the Department of English and the College of Fine Arts at the University of Southwestern Louisiana. But the greatest measure of The Conference's success continues to be the enrollment of writers who wish to contribute to and benefit from such a gathering. Registration (see page 3 for schedule and registration form) includes lectures, panel discussions, and special events. For more information, interested writers and artists may contact Jerry McGuire at 318-482-5478, or by email at jlm@usl.edu, or write to: Deep South Writers Conference English Department, Box 44691 University of Southwestern Louisiana Lafayette, LA 70504-4691 And check out our website: http://www.usl.edu/Departments/English/ (when you're there, click on "Deep South Writers Conference"). Lodging and Accommodations We have arranged for several hotels to provide rooms at special conference rates. Please call one of the following, and be sure to tell them when making your reservation that you are attending the USL Deep South Writers Conference: Holidome, 2032 NE Evangeline Thruway (318-233-6815; 800-942-4868); one rate of $60. Reserve by Sept. 12. Comfort Inn, 1421 SE Evangeline Thruway (800-800-8752); $52 single, 57 double (all rooms have one queen-sized bed only). Reserve by Sept. 12. Ramada Inn, 120 E. Kaliste Saloom Rd. (318-235-0858); one rate of $50. Reserve by Sept. 12. Travelodge, 1101 West Pinhook Rd. (318-234-7402), one rate of $45. Reserve by Sept. 12. We're looking forward to a great conference-please come join us! DEEP SOUTH WRITERS CONFERENCE SCHEDULE OF EVENTS Thursday, September 24 7 pm Film: The Last Seduction, Bayou Bijou Theater, Student Union 9 pm Q & A with Last Seduction screenwriter Steve Barancik Friday, September 25 10-12 Workshop/Craft Lecture: Mystery Writing—Laird 10-12 Workshop: Creative Non-Fiction—Luis Urrea and Uschuk 10-12 Workshop: Poetry—Denise Rogers 10-12 Workshop: Fiction—Picoult Noon: Lunch with authors 1:30-2:30 Craft Lecture: Nature Writing—Gessner 1:30-3:30 Workshop: Short Fiction—George Clark 1:30-3:30 Workshop: Poetry—Root 3:30-4:30 Craft Lecture/Workshop: Journalling–Luis Urrea and Uschuk 3:30-4:30 Reading: National Writing Project 4:30-5:30 Reading—Gessner and Uschuk 4:30-6 Workshop: Children’s Fiction—Iskander 7 Awards Ceremony for 1998 Deep South Writers Contest 7:30 Featured Readings—Laird and Root, Fletcher Hall 134 9 Party at David Thibodaux’s; with kickoff of Many Mountains Moving Nature Issue Saturday, September 26 8-10 Hospitality and coffee at the Alumni House, book signings by all featured authors 9:30-11 Craft Lecture/Workshop: Screenwriting with Steve Barancik 10-11 Fiction Workshop for Beginners 10-11 Poetry Workshop for Beginners 10-12 Workshop: Nature Writing with Gessner and Uschuk 11-12 Craft Lecture: Reporting and Creative Non-Fiction—Cindy Urrea 11-12 Panel: Interart Collaboration Noon: Lunch—"Caravans" to local restaurants 1:30-2:30 Panel: The Genre Voice—Finding a Voice and Exploring a Market 2:30-3:30 Pedagogy Panel: Genre Fiction and the Creative Writing Classroom 2:30-3:30 Craft Lecture: Poetry—Bourque, McGuire, Root 3:30-4:30 Folklore Panel/Exhibition: Cemeteries, Death & Dying, and the Creative Writer, with Gaudet, Rikki Clark, DeShong 5 The Louisiana All-Stars Reading, Lafayette Public Library 7 Featured Reading—Piqoult and Gaines, Fletcher Hall 134 9 Poetry Slam/Poetry Crawl/Open Mike—various locations to be announced Sunday, September 27 9 Hospitality 10 Who wants what I write? Panel of Editors: 12 Closing Ceremonies REGISTRATION AND FEES FOR THE 1998 DEEP SOUTH WRITERS CONFERENCE Please fill out, detach, and mail to the address below: Name________________________________________________ Address________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ Telephone____________________________email___________ PRE-REGISTRATION AND REGISTRATION Pre-Registration Fee.......................................$40............. ______________________________________________ Registration fee After September 9..................$50............ ______________________________________________ USL Students with ID.........................................free........ ______________________________________________ Other Students with ID.......................................$25........ ______________________________________________ ______________________________________________ WORKSHOP FEES ($40 FOR ONE WORKSHOP; $20 FOR EACH ADDITIONAL WORKSHOP) Please put an X beside the ones for which you wish to register: Poetry Workshop—William Pitt Root..................... Poetry Workshop—Denise Rogers.......................... Fiction Workshop—Jodi Picoult…………………. Fiction Workshop—George Clark............................... Creative Non-Fiction—Luis Urrea and Pamela Uschuck....................... Craft Lecture/Workshop in Screenwriting-- Steve Barancik........................... Craft Lecture/Workshop in Journaling— Urrea and Uschuck..................... Craft Lecture/Workshop in Mystery Writing— Brian Andrew Laird........................ Craft Lecture/Workshop in Nature Writing— David Gessner and Uschuck.................. Children’s Fiction Workshop— Marcia Hixon.................... CODOFIL Workshop: Poetry and Fiction in French.................. Beginners Poetry Workshop with USL Graduate Creative Writers ($20).................. Beginners Fiction Workshop with USL Graduate Creative Writers ($20).................... Please indicate which fees you are paying (by placing an X after the dotted line following the entry) and return this form with your check made payable to: DEEP SOUTH WRITERS CONFERENCE. Send form and check (please be sure to specify name of participant, if different from name on check) to this address: Deep South Writers Conference English Dept., Box 44691 University of Southwestern Louisiana Lafayette LA 70504-4691 Please call or email Jerry McGuire with any further questions: telephone: 318-482-5478 email: jlm8047@usl.edu The program is supported in part by a grant from the Louisiana Division of the Arts and by a Partnership Award from the Acadiana Arts Council, with funds provided by the City of Lafayette, the Lafayette Parish Council, and the National Endowment for the Arts. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:20:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: new from housepress: keyboard po (e/li)tics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII this came into my box. does anyone know more about it? kevin Keyboard Po(e/li)tics > > exploring the "pataphysics of the keyboard. > > > > house press is pleased to announce the release of KEYBOARD > PO(E/LI)TICS by neil hennessy and d.a.beaulieu. inspired by the work > of bpNichol and steve mcCaffrey's TRG (toronto research group) and > other works of Canadian "pataphysics (the impossible science of > literature), KEYBOARD PO(E/LI)TICS explores the politics and poetics > of the qwerty keyboard through postcards, chapbooks and concrete > poetry > > > keyboard po(e/li)tics > > ISBN 1-894174-07-0 > > limited edition of 40 handbound & printed copies > > (consisting of 2 chapbooks, 5 postcards, 3 broadsheets > > and a handprinted linocut envelope) > > $12.50 > > contact housepress at: > > housepre@cadvision.com > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 17:30:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview/reactionatinquery In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, George Thompson wrote: > >im offended. > > Dear R M Daley, > > I find this kind of post utterly useless and a painful waste of time. No > context, no substance. I've begun to automatically delete this kind of post > from the various lists that I listen to, when I figure out the sort of > people who like this sort of thing, and who are prone to it. > > If you want me to read your posts, please give me a reason to. Otherwise, > deletion will be automatic. > > GTh ///dammitjosh/*alltoo reactionary queriesOURTIME/OUTfuck and nowourPUBLICSCOLDINGSJOSHitstoomuchjosh gETOFFMYSPAMnotheotherkindof uckthatsrectangularalll somtime slipperyTOME babyTIME, stupid/late teafor ourstarfishand coffe, hey tonight its the wharfand drinkson me, topshelfGRABmy comix no the german kind right...fine mess we're in now eh j these salons can get to a hardworkin girl if you dont keep an eye on the delivery and the means- MY DELIVERYYOUR means - heard the one about the pyschiatrist and the three pink poodles babe no the pink pychiatrist actually- SHO TASTE GOOD- name of our band yeah howzat do ya fer@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ARTILLERYS IN PLACE SARGEXXXXXMAINTAIN POSITION RIGHT FLANK TO COVERXXXXXSCATTERING POSITIONWE CANT HOLD EM HLOD EM XXXXTO YOUR FEET go go go - LAST TIME out of feet eating sox- undel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 19:52:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview/reactionatinquery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks. Now I know what to do with your posts. GT >On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, George Thompson wrote: > >> >im offended. >> >> Dear R M Daley, >> >> I find this kind of post utterly useless and a painful waste of time. No >> context, no substance. I've begun to automatically delete this kind of post >> from the various lists that I listen to, when I figure out the sort of >> people who like this sort of thing, and who are prone to it. >> >> If you want me to read your posts, please give me a reason to. Otherwise, >> deletion will be automatic. >> >> GTh > > >///dammitjosh/*alltoo reactionary queriesOURTIME/OUTfuck and >nowourPUBLICSCOLDINGSJOSHitstoomuchjosh gETOFFMYSPAMnotheotherkindof >uckthatsrectangularalll somtime slipperyTOME babyTIME, stupid/late >teafor ourstarfishand coffe, hey tonight its the wharfand drinkson me, >topshelfGRABmy comix no the german kind right...fine mess we're in now >eh j these salons can get to a hardworkin girl if you dont keep an >eye on the delivery and the means- MY DELIVERYYOUR means - heard the >one about the pyschiatrist and the three pink poodles babe no the pink >pychiatrist actually- SHO TASTE GOOD- name of our band yeah howzat do ya >fer@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ARTILLERYS IN PLACE SARGEXXXXXMAINTAIN POSITION RIGHT >FLANK TO COVERXXXXXSCATTERING POSITIONWE CANT HOLD EM HLOD EM XXXXTO YOUR >FEET go go go - LAST TIME out of feet eating sox- undel ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:44:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview/reactionatinquery In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, George Thompson wrote: > Thanks. Now I know what to do with your posts. > whazzat? jus wanna know whats so goldarn offensive? > GT > > >On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, George Thompson wrote: > > > >> >im offended. > >> > >> Dear R M Daley, > >> > >> I find this kind of post utterly useless and a painful waste of time. No > >> context, no substance. I've begun to automatically delete this kind of post > >> from the various lists that I listen to, when I figure out the sort of > >> people who like this sort of thing, and who are prone to it. > >> > >> If you want me to read your posts, please give me a reason to. Otherwise, > >> deletion will be automatic. > >> > >> GTh > > > > > >///dammitjosh/*alltoo reactionary queriesOURTIME/OUTfuck and > >nowourPUBLICSCOLDINGSJOSHitstoomuchjosh gETOFFMYSPAMnotheotherkindof > >uckthatsrectangularalll somtime slipperyTOME babyTIME, stupid/late > >teafor ourstarfishand coffe, hey tonight its the wharfand drinkson me, > >topshelfGRABmy comix no the german kind right...fine mess we're in now > >eh j these salons can get to a hardworkin girl if you dont keep an > >eye on the delivery and the means- MY DELIVERYYOUR means - heard the > >one about the pyschiatrist and the three pink poodles babe no the pink > >pychiatrist actually- SHO TASTE GOOD- name of our band yeah howzat do ya > >fer@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ARTILLERYS IN PLACE SARGEXXXXXMAINTAIN POSITION RIGHT > >FLANK TO COVERXXXXXSCATTERING POSITIONWE CANT HOLD EM HLOD EM XXXXTO YOUR > >FEET go go go - LAST TIME out of feet eating sox- undel > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 18:51:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Rudeness on the List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Then God says to the financier, "Go to more off-Broadway shows." Then God says to the panhandler, "Get a job!" If Peter Balestrieri is annoyed with David McFadden for gently reprimanding Laura Wright's mistake, what shall we think of Peter Balestrieri for rudely reprimanding David McFadden's mistake? I shall prefer the gentle correction to the rude one. There is so much of self-glorification in Peter Balestrieri's rudeness; that's what makes it hard to take. So he has a Poetic License to Kill, huh? Kinda makes a fella want to not wait for The Law. In shooting David McFadden from the hip, Peter Balestrieri overlooked the possibility that David McFadden did _not_ recognize Laura Wright had made a mistake; if someone hasn't been on the List long, he might well not understand how her private dissection of Todd Baron had appeared before us all. Are the Rude Planets in conjunction? For we also have the spectacle of R.Daley chewing up the carpet over George Thompson's correction. I have only been on the List a year and a half, but I have seen several previous outbursts of rudeness--sometimes completely unprovoked, as far as one could tell, and I have seen a number of postings that suggest some kind of List-civility is looked for. In this respect, I don't see why the List should be any different than social intercourse in general. It's more interesting if it has some Mind in it. Peter Balestrieri doesn't think that David McFadden should make anything out of Laura Wright's unfortunate posting, because it was a mistake. But when Peter Balestrieri posted that Todd Baron's pigeons had come home to roost, he himself was piggy-backing on Laura Wright's mistake. I'm sure this saying can also be found in Bartlett's Quotations : "The pot should not call the kettle black." David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 22:12:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: Writer on Line Interview/reactionatinquery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >On Thu, 20 Aug 1998, George Thompson wrote: > >> Thanks. Now I know what to do with your posts. >> > >whazzat? > >jus wanna know whats so goldarn offensive? > > Okay. An answer, and that's it. Not offensive. Just a waste of time. Maybe I am older than you are. I see before me just a dwindling fucking bit of daylight. Just a little. If that is what you saw before you, would you waste your time reading your posts to this list? I mean, why poetics? And David Bromige is I bet older than I am. GT ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 20:22:11 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jay Schwartz Subject: Re: Rudeness on the List In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The bottom line in all of these ludicrous posts is the mistake of replying to the List instead of backchannel. A simple solution to all of these time-wasters: 1. Double-check in your replies that they are traveling to the correct destination. 2. If you intend to reply to an individual about a List-related matter, think very hard before you reply to the entire List. Think about if you were in a room with every List subscriber packed close enough to hear every word of your conversation. Is it interesting and useful public information? All of the messages around the Todd Baron snafu should have gone backchannel to avoid embrassment and frustration for those of us who subscribe for information about the Poetry community. We've been through this before. Ugh. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:51:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Shemurph@AOL.COM Subject: the rude planets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit In a message dated 8/20/98 6:47:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dcmb@METRO.NET writes: << Are the Rude Planets in conjunction? >> As a matter of fact, Mercury has been in retrograde, and will be until Sunday. If you have been feeling details going awry and things being exceptionally topsy turvy, your communications in a veritable snit 90% of the time, then you're about where you should be. And that, friends, is the sum total of my astrological knowledge. Sheila Murphy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:54:19 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: Rudeness on the List: "I" is another and another and an other and...gee whiz... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit speaking as one "todd baron"--I find all of the assumptions, amusements, assertions, and eruditions on one , Todd Baron, to be of benefit to Mr. Baron's theory that "dismishes the self as a center of a poetics". Speaking for myself. "I" thank all who attack me--in the name of me, myself, and I... or as my mother used to sing.. "me and my shadow..." yrs, Mr. T ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 00:54:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: R M Daley Subject: Re: Rudeness on the List In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hmm but writing on this list IS VERY DIFFERENT from speaking to each other in a room over cocktails and black tights and seems unique in this, like a license to pass notes in class and perhaps not MIND in front of all the teachers , and by the way the teachers are invited, and giving a push and a shove now and then and personally and publicly in LIGHT very fading light or bright shiny floods rant in ways possible, as this is something presumably perhaps one thing in common on this group chat is all a raving interest in writing and reading and trying it out and putting it on - all diferent kinda ons I HOPE would be at least allowed, if comparisons serve, I have never been to a reading where someone voicing the least bit of dissonance or interest in playing with space in a breath or time on a page has been told they were wasting everyone's time--ie, isnt this just all protest against wasting it?!?is this possible??and if your time is being WASTED whose fault is that? chan says IF YOUR BORED > TRY IT FOUR MORE TIMES and if your're still bored, TRY IT TWENTY MORE TIMES - or turn off the TV ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 01:39:17 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: more recent economist article In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Yes, Jordan, and the new _Economist_ article says something about Mark Doty's >being "the finest American poet since Robert Lowell." > >Susan Schultz Okay. But who's Robert Lowell? George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:16:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: Terror on the tee vee: A Repeat Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable By hitting hard in the face people who have hit you you may either deter future assaults or provoke them. The Booger of State spoke yesterday in the name of Decent People, like the revered Emperor Reagan of yesteryear, who once said "If we can find them, we will kill them." He did not find Them but instead had the children of the Hated Leader killed. This, 1986, in Libya, but Moral Superiority does not stop in Northern Africa only. No campground is too far. Why do terrorists attack Americans? A: because we are so good; it incites jealousy and resentment. That American soldiers have been killed in Beirut, Riyadh; why, people do not ask, are American military bases there? Nor has it come up that in the wake of the =91strafing=92 of= Libya=97"the price he=92s going to have to pay for continued terrorism,"=97did our tit= for their tat in turn culminate in Flight 103 exploding over Lockerbie,= Scotland.=20 Booger Albright of State: "this is the beginning of a long-term battle against terrorists." Sudanese President Omar el-Bashir: "we reserve the right to respond to the American attack using all necessary measures." Clinton, Executive Stud: "We will not yield to this threat. We will meet it no matter how long it may take."=20 Clinton=92s Enemies praised the attacks but "questioned" the timing. They cited a fictional movie as a historical precedent.=20 Clinton, Top Dick: "This will be a long, ongoing struggle." Senator Helms called the strikes "overdue" and added "sooner or later, terrorists will realize that America=92s differences end at the water=92s= edge" a rather candid statement on the spirit of gleeful cooperation Leaders of the Free World engage in when unruly sandniggers get out of line.=20 How did we know who to bomb?, Critical Minds asked. The curious were directed to the CIA Web Page for Children <> "Afghanistan and Sudan have been warned for years to eat their vegetables," Clinton said. <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard =09 The MIT Press Journals =09 Five Cambridge Center =09 Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 05:49:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Organization: Sun Moon Books Subject: new Sun & Moon titles MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sun & Moon Press is proud to announce the publication of NOD by Fanny Howe. In NOD, her ninth book of fiction, major American novelist and poet Fanny Howe explores sibling rivalry within a family that, in the advent of World War II, is both disintegrating and stumbling into the terrible, dark adulthood of the later half of the Twentieth Century. Yet for all the dark forces at work in Howe's novel, she presents also a world of wonder, of sexual awakenings interlinked with the Irish countryside and culture in which the girls grow up, the strange stories and myths they heaar from the Norwegian north and retell through their own highly-wrought imaginations. The central figures of this fiction, Irene and Cloda, interact with one another and the man who has encamped in their ghost-, now guest-room, asif playing out the lives of the Brontes to a packed theater audience. Cloth only, $18.95, with a 20% discount to list members. Also a reminder: DURA, by Myung Mi Kim paper $11.95 MIRRORS, by Marcel Cohen paper $12.95 (a Green Integer book) AFTER, by Douglas Messerli paper $10.95 WITH EACH CLOUDED PEAK, by Friederike Mayrocker (trans. by Rosmarie Waldrop) paper $11.95 are all available with a 20% discount to list members. A subscription to our new international poetry journal, MR. KNIFE, MISS FORK is $20.00 for two issues; the second issue will be out in November. Send orders via e-mail to djmess@sunmoon.com Be sure to enclose your postal address. Douglas Messerli ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:12:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: High West Rendezvous by Ed Dorn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Is/has anyone on list reading/read this the latest from Ed Dorn, recently available from etruscan books? (SPD too). I've not been on list that long and may have been spoken too. That said I find his 'sample' from LANGUEDOC VARIORUM (A defense of hersey and heretics), as usual from Dorn, timely to not only this list but the global nonsense taking place these days. mccrary ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 08:25:38 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: Bellamy,Killian,Rothenberg BEYONDthePAGE in SanDiego MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BEYOND THE PAGE PRESENTS: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: What: Beyond the Page continues its series of monthly performance and arts events with JEROME ROTHENBERG, DODIE BELLAMY, and KEVIN KILLIAN reading from and/or performing their works. Where: Faultline Theatre, 3152 5th Avenue (at Spruce in Hillcrest), San Diego. When: Sunday, August 30th. 4:00 PM. Contact: Stephen Cope at (619) 298-8761 or Joe Ross at (619) 291-8984. E-mail at scope@ucsd.edu, or jjross@cts.com. * * * * * * * * * JEROME ROTHENBERG is an acclaimed experimentalist and a central figure in the areas of performance poetry, ethnopoetics, and, to borrow his own words, "that dada strain". He has published dozens of volumes of his own writing and edited numerous seminal anthologies, including the monumental _Poems for the Millenium: The University of California Book of Modern and Postmodern Poetry_, edited with Pierre Joris. DODIE BELLAMY is the author of _Feminine Hijinx_ (Hanuman, 1990), _Real: The Letters of Mina Harker and Sam D'Allesandro_ (Talisman House, 1995) and _The Letters of Mina Harker_ (Hard Press, 1998), as well as three chapbooks, _Answer_ (Leave Books, 1992), _Broken English_ (Meow, 1996), and _Hallucinations_ (Meow, 1997). KEVIN KILLIAN is a poet, novelist, critic and playwright. His books include _Bedrooms Have Windows_, _Shy_, _Little Men_, _Arctic Summer_ and _Argento Series_. With Lewis Ellingham he has written _Poet Be Like God: Jack Spicer and the San Francisco Renaissance_ (Wesleyan, 1998), the first biography of the important US poet. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:20:17 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: 2 queries Could someone backchannel an email address for Joel Felix - are you here, Joel? thanks, beautiful people - Henry Gould, old anti-intellectual anti-academic neanderthal grump ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:28:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Fresh New Member! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By way of introduction, and first impressions, after being happily logged on for a mere week, the Poetics List is everything it seemed to be when a certain old member first told me about it a year or two ago and urged me to join. Having been involved in daily poetic practice for forty years I'm currently involved in tearing down various weatherbeaten theoretic structures and can;t resist the temptation to turn my head occasionally in search of new ones to take their place. What I wasn't prepared for was this spate of vindictiveness, this viaduct of spite, this river of resentment, a sort of Internet Road Rage. But even that has its own parochial fascination, like cowboy movies from the forties, and is part of the charm. Predictably, some have been inspired to complain even about my innocent little sig. files, but these people I understand completely, and I appreciate their perceptively caustic wit, especially when it's directed at le grand moi-meme. One can't waste one's precious time in trying not to be annoying, when it is one's nature pure and simple to be annoying, at least to people in a certain mental state. So, I am what I am, and if you find my posts (and my sig. files) excessively irritating please consider taking up a petition to have me evicted toot sweet. dwm "There is a mean poem about the Leid-Stadt, by a German man named Mr. Rilke. But we will not read it, because we are going to Happyville." - Thomas Pynchon, Gravity's Rainbow (1973). ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:44:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristen Gallagher Subject: address query In-Reply-To: <199808201216.IAA69382@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Michael Magee" at Aug 20, 98 08:16:59 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit anyone know how to find melanie nielson of _big allis_ fame? much appreciation in advance. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:35:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Rudeness on the List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "All of the messages around the Todd Baron snafu should have gone back-channel" writes Jay Svchwartz. I beg to differ. Yes, all of the first round of such messages should have. But the cat once out of the bag, it had become a List-matter. In my view, it was necessary that I post in regarding the civility/rudeness thread, and to the List as an entirety, since I was taking issue with other List-wide messages.(In fact, I was doing no more than Jay is doing today : I am sure he sees my point) David ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 09:37:27 -0500 Reply-To: kuszai@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: back in the saddle MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit after a long, arduous, journey through the American Southwest, including two nights with William R. Howe and his mother in Lubbock Texas, me, bubby and moby have all landed safely here in this beach town (read desert). First thing Moby did was to kill a pretty good size lizard; holding it down with one paw, she ruthlessly hammered it with the other--claws full ablaze. My what pests you have here! anyhow- I'm slowly getting settled here. note new email address: kuszai@earthlink.net because I have not finished my degree and will remain registered at SUNY Buffalo until then, my email there will remain valid and for reasons of convenience the meow press site will also stay there for now. a couple of notes. 1. I am working on a response to Steve Dickison's lecture at Naropa--and wonder if there is interest in a series of dialogs on the small press poetry world. mostly my concern is with the economics, ethics, and the engineering of small press poetry production. I hope to produce at least one or as many as a a few chapbooks about this issue. My interest is various, from ideas about the relation of book production to the larger economic systems we participate in (abbreviated form) to very nuts and bolts HOW TO make a chapbook with a ten year old computer, a laser printer, and an oz. of desire to make it happen. Of course metaphysical ramblings about the meaning/value of chapbooks as a "form" or whatnot are also interesting. This is all in formation and I'd appreciate feedback, whether here or privately. 2. I have been reading the digests with great concern. You may have thought that my transport to California would mean that there were no polzei minding the store. Well I can assure you that I have my jack-boots on and I'm as quick as CHPs to give out Poetics Points for various infractions. The lastest is of course David Bromige, who once again reminds us of his legal training and expertise in motivational rhetoric. He also reminds me that I have kin in Sonoma County. Here is an exerpt from the Welcome Message, for those who need a remind: "Please keep in mind that all posts go out immediately to all subscribers, and become part of an on-line archive. *Posting to Poetics is a form of publication, not personal communication.* Participants are asked to exercise caution before posting messages! While spontaneity of response may seem the very heart of the list at its best, it also has the darker side of circulating ideas that have not been well considered (or considered by another reader -- editor or friend). Given the nature of the medium, subscribers do well to maintain some skepticism when reading the list and, where possible, to try to avoid taking what may be something close to a spontaneous comment made in the heat of exchange as if it were a revised or edited essay ("Let the Reader Beware!")." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 10:06:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Fresh New Member! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" dave is the greatest, be nice to dave, i wouldn't be surprised to see dave and kenneth koch toe to toe for the nobel prize this year or next . Dave's book There'll Be Another is even better than Gypsy Guitar and there's nothing better than Gypsy Guitar published by Talon Books, Vancouver. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Yeah, I stole from the treasury of human folly I spent it all on you, baby... don't mention it Duncan McNaughton ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 13:12:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Re: back in the saddle Comments: To: kuszai@earthlink.net In-Reply-To: <35DD8627.34CE@earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" joel-- hope the trek was journey more than travail... praps of interest, a recent piece in the balitimore sun http://www.baltimoresun.com/cgi-bin/editorial/story.cgi?storyid=900000175834 on Cuban book artists... and this: what kinds of difference does it make if one has the option, *chooses*, limited editions and handmade bookworks; as against being constrained to such by economics/politics? how are the choices made by soviet era samizdat publishers (editions of 12 'cause that's the maximum number of carbons you can squeeze in th typewriter) comparable to those of us who publish work w/ constrained (by forces? by choice?) or limited audiences... bests luigi >a couple of notes. > >1. >I am working on a response to Steve Dickison's lecture at Naropa--and wonder if >there is interest in a series of dialogs on the small press poetry world. >mostly my concern is with the economics, ethics, and the engineering of small >press poetry production. I hope to produce at least one or as many as a a few >chapbooks about this issue. My interest is various, from ideas about the >relation of book production to the larger economic systems we participate in >(abbreviated form) to very nuts and bolts HOW TO make a chapbook with a ten >year old computer, a laser printer, and an oz. of desire to make it happen. Of >course metaphysical ramblings about the meaning/value of chapbooks as a "form" >or whatnot are also interesting. This is all in formation and I'd appreciate >feedback, whether here or privately. > >2. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:59:06 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: bullworthless (executive of color) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ok, I'll just jump on where the movies start. BULLWORTH. Star vehicle # 800010 approximately. Haven't actually seen it but have a story: a friend of mine was invited to an advance screening as a "[movie] executive of color" , realizing this once there and looking about the room, and being bombasted with questions from Warren Beatty about how it struck, did it offend, blabla, and then told coyly by Annette Benning (Mrs Warren Beatty) "Wow, he really put you on the spot!". PUH-LEASE. Of course this is not a surprising hollywood story, but I am simply not willing to consider Warren, a playboy freak who can't act and is too old for me to even remember as mildly attractive, as some kind of vanguard figure, laying open new realms for us losers. This is crap, my dear Kent, I come down on that side of your question. To me there is something racist in the power dynamic of Mr. Beatty asking a young exec of color an opinion, when obviously he holds the power and is, I doubt, listening -- or if so, merely for his own gain. Lover of Hollywood, Elizabeth T. ps if you want poets in movies, why not fake ones like Henry Fool, where we don't, thank heavens, actually have to hear the poem that's sposed to be so great. (I know Henry fool has been discussed already, as we here are fersure the target demo.) Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:43:00 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry g Subject: flims Henry Fool - is this the one about the guy who doesn't know he's on TV? ah... huh? - Henry ... Henry... ah, huh? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:02:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael McColl Organization: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY Subject: Re: bullworthless (executive of color) In-Reply-To: <199808211859.LAA10169@lanshark.lanminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT On Fri, 21 Aug 1998 11:59:06 -0700 Elizabeth Treadwell said: >Ok, I'll just jump on where the movies start. BULLWORTH. Star vehicle # >800010 approximately. Haven't actually seen it but have a story: a friend >of mine was invited to an advance screening as a "[movie] executive of >color" , realizing this once there and looking about the room, and being >bombasted with questions from Warren Beatty about how it struck, did it >offend, blabla, and then told coyly by Annette Benning (Mrs Warren Beatty) >"Wow, he really put you on the spot!". PUH-LEASE. Of course this is not a >surprising hollywood story, but I am simply not willing to consider Warren, >a playboy freak who can't act and is too old for me to even remember as >mildly attractive, as some kind of vanguard figure, laying open new realms >for us losers. This is crap, my dear Kent, I come down on that side of your >question. To me there is something racist in the power dynamic of Mr. >Beatty asking a young exec of color an opinion, when obviously he holds the >power and is, I doubt, listening -- or if so, merely for his own gain. > >Lover of Hollywood, >Elizabeth T. > >ps if you want poets in movies, why not fake ones like Henry Fool, where we >don't, thank heavens, actually have to hear the poem that's sposed to be so >great. (I know Henry fool has been discussed already, as we here are fersure >the target demo.) > >Outlet, a periodical >Double Lucy Books >P.O. Box 9013 >Berkeley, California 94709 >U.S.A. >http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy Well of course he can't be doing anything new or important if he's old and unattractive. but it's just a little presumptuous, don't you think, to *know* that he wasn't *really*.interested in the man's opinion, and Michael McCollracist for asking? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:21:22 -0500 Reply-To: MAYHEW Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: reactionary query MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII "How has it come about that British society not only tolerates such an intelligentsia (for that is what any democratic society has to do), but applauds it and is proud of it? No democratic society has yet found a way to restrict the influence such people exert, and perhaps within democracy no way can be found." --Donald Davie _Thomas Hardy and British Poetry_ (93) Those pesky intellectuals. "Apparently an American reviewer [of Tomlinson] had complained that the poet's persona was that of 'the considerate house guest.' .... And the British reader is bewildered? Would [he] have preferred an inconsiderate house guest? ... Is the American reader never satisfied until his poet has abused him, spat on his face, beaten him over the head?" (p. 187) Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:44:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Re: Bullworth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Bullworth had a pretty obvious anti-racist thrust to it, but there were some very troubling things about how all that was handled/represented. It was damn sexist for one thing and the whole gangsta ethos is very dated as parts of the soundtrack attest, i.e. Cypress Hill circa early 90's. What was that doing in there? I guess it was chronologically correct. Was there an explicit period to this. I can't remember. Anyway, I thought the film was laden with black stereotypes ever so slightly modified, Kale not Collard Greens. I'd like to know what Amiri Baraka thinks of the finished product. I can see anybody being hyped by the script, but the goofy way that the scenes erupt detracted from the message. Baraka's role seems like window dressing, something thrown in but not developed. "The spirit is not a ghost" I love that, but it didn't fit with the rest at all. But I like Daniel's take that he functions as a cipher cutting through the spectacle. But why did the dressing down of an automaton politician have to be the result of sleep deprivation: temporary, easily rectified and explained? And why does the movie walk right back into the warm embrace with the media that it so cannily eluded throughout? Scott Pound ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:33:33 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: economists MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why does Jordan keep wondering why people keep saying John Ashbery's poetry is difficult and humorless? Perhaps they thought A Wave was goodbye rather than hello. Especially when more pressing issues such as Bill Clinton's under the table payee arrangement to promote Wag the Dog, Todd Baron's dogish issue, and the new _Economist_ article's statement about Mark Doty being "the finest American poet since Robert Lowell" are full fathom five. The public is a shallow act. Be well David Baratier And for George B. The extent of what most American's know can be found at: http://www.robertlowell.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:43:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: back in the saddle Comments: To: kuszai@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have had it in mind for some time to do something similar on web sites as "small press publictions" - perhaps I need to do and not say. I would be interested in seeing opinions/discussion on the issue of whether web publications qualify as small press. What I have seen has been basically affirmative but of course for the most comes from those who have published or put a site on the web. tom bell J. Kuszai wrote: > > after a long, arduous, journey through the American Southwest, including two > nights with William R. Howe and his mother in Lubbock Texas, me, bubby and moby > have all landed safely here in this beach town (read desert). First thing Moby > did was to kill a pretty good size lizard; holding it down with one paw, she > ruthlessly hammered it with the other--claws full ablaze. My what pests you > have here! > > anyhow- I'm slowly getting settled here. note new email address: > kuszai@earthlink.net > > because I have not finished my degree and will remain registered at SUNY > Buffalo until then, my email there will remain valid and for reasons of > convenience the meow press site will also stay there for now. > > a couple of notes. > > 1. > I am working on a response to Steve Dickison's lecture at Naropa--and wonder if > there is interest in a series of dialogs on the small press poetry world. > mostly my concern is with the economics, ethics, and the engineering of small > press poetry production. I hope to produce at least one or as many as a a few > chapbooks about this issue. My interest is various, from ideas about the > relation of book production to the larger economic systems we participate in > (abbreviated form) to very nuts and bolts HOW TO make a chapbook with a ten > year old computer, a laser printer, and an oz. of desire to make it happen. Of > course metaphysical ramblings about the meaning/value of chapbooks as a "form" > or whatnot are also interesting. This is all in formation and I'd appreciate > feedback, whether here or privately. > > 2. > I have been reading the digests with great concern. You may have thought that > my transport to California would mean that there were no polzei minding the > store. Well I can assure you that I have my jack-boots on and I'm as quick as > CHPs to give out Poetics Points for various infractions. The lastest is of > course David Bromige, who once again reminds us of his legal training and > expertise in motivational rhetoric. He also reminds me that I have kin in > Sonoma County. > > Here is an exerpt from the Welcome Message, for those who need a remind: > > "Please keep in mind that all posts go out immediately to all subscribers, > and become part of an on-line archive. *Posting to Poetics is a form of > publication, not personal communication.* Participants are asked to > exercise caution before posting messages! While spontaneity of response may > seem the very heart of the list at its best, it also has the darker side of > circulating ideas that have not been well considered (or considered by > another reader -- editor or friend). Given the nature of the medium, > subscribers do well to maintain some skepticism when reading the list and, > where possible, to try to avoid taking what may be something close to a > spontaneous comment made in the heat of exchange as if it were a revised or > edited essay ("Let the Reader Beware!")." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 15:31:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Bullworth In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > "The spirit is not a ghost" I love >that, "Be a spirit, not a ghost" is something more like what I heard someone heard. Probably Baraka is quoting himself quoting Albert Ayler, wouldnt you think? So we get real USAmerican music into a california movie. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 16:24:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Subject: terms of endearment MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit daniel bouchard wrote: > Clinton, Executive Stud Der Übershtupper, as I've been calling him this week--inspired by (what my husband claims was) an English newspaper's name for Ken Starr, "Spermfinder General." But a poetical query: when Kenneth Koch refers to the "Poem Society" in "Fresh Air," is he talking about the Poetry Society of America? Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:38:51 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Lawrence Subject: Re: bullworthless (executive of color) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" >if you want poets in movies, why not fake ones like Henry Fool I thought Ben Gazara made a fine Chinaski; I liked him far more than Mickey Rourke in barfly (where Buk made a fleeting, elbows-on-bar appearance). best Anthony ************************************** Anthony Lawrence Po Box 75 Sandy Bay Tasmania 7006 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 17:23:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Marsh Subject: smallpress/websites In-Reply-To: <35DDE9E4.A236FF91@home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" tom i'm interested / backchannel if you wanna converse on this stuff / or post here, not to deprive listers best, bill At 04:43 PM 8/21/98 -0500, you wrote: >I have had it in mind for some time to do something similar on web sites >as "small press publictions" - perhaps I need to do and not say. I >would be interested in seeing opinions/discussion on the issue of >whether web publications qualify as small press. What I have seen has >been basically affirmative but of course for the most comes from those >who have published or put a site on the web. > >tom bell > >J. Kuszai wrote: >> >> after a long, arduous, journey through the American Southwest, including two >> nights with William R. Howe and his mother in Lubbock Texas, me, bubby and moby >> have all landed safely here in this beach town (read desert). First thing Moby >> did was to kill a pretty good size lizard; holding it down with one paw, she >> ruthlessly hammered it with the other--claws full ablaze. My what pests you >> have here! >> >> anyhow- I'm slowly getting settled here. note new email address: >> kuszai@earthlink.net >> >> because I have not finished my degree and will remain registered at SUNY >> Buffalo until then, my email there will remain valid and for reasons of >> convenience the meow press site will also stay there for now. >> >> a couple of notes. >> >> 1. >> I am working on a response to Steve Dickison's lecture at Naropa--and wonder if >> there is interest in a series of dialogs on the small press poetry world. >> mostly my concern is with the economics, ethics, and the engineering of small >> press poetry production. I hope to produce at least one or as many as a a few >> chapbooks about this issue. My interest is various, from ideas about the >> relation of book production to the larger economic systems we participate in >> (abbreviated form) to very nuts and bolts HOW TO make a chapbook with a ten >> year old computer, a laser printer, and an oz. of desire to make it happen. Of >> course metaphysical ramblings about the meaning/value of chapbooks as a "form" >> or whatnot are also interesting. This is all in formation and I'd appreciate >> feedback, whether here or privately. >> >> 2. >> I have been reading the digests with great concern. You may have thought that >> my transport to California would mean that there were no polzei minding the >> store. Well I can assure you that I have my jack-boots on and I'm as quick as >> CHPs to give out Poetics Points for various infractions. The lastest is of >> course David Bromige, who once again reminds us of his legal training and >> expertise in motivational rhetoric. He also reminds me that I have kin in >> Sonoma County. >> >> Here is an exerpt from the Welcome Message, for those who need a remind: >> >> "Please keep in mind that all posts go out immediately to all subscribers, >> and become part of an on-line archive. *Posting to Poetics is a form of >> publication, not personal communication.* Participants are asked to >> exercise caution before posting messages! While spontaneity of response may >> seem the very heart of the list at its best, it also has the darker side of >> circulating ideas that have not been well considered (or considered by >> another reader -- editor or friend). Given the nature of the medium, >> subscribers do well to maintain some skepticism when reading the list and, >> where possible, to try to avoid taking what may be something close to a >> spontaneous comment made in the heat of exchange as if it were a revised or >> edited essay ("Let the Reader Beware!")." > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - William Marsh | PaperBrainPress http://bmarsh.dtai.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:51:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodrigo Toscano Subject: Re: Bullworth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Dear List, After reading the several posts on Bullworth I thought I'd kick in with my take on it. Yes, the politics of race (and gender) in it are often confused and obsfucatory (some in ways that can't be resuscitated)......... And it's a silly premise, some official going bonkers and rapping and all that... BUT (and here I share Kent Johnston's enthusiasm for it) It gets its licks in...something that doesn't happen often...to a wide audience...and it pins Corporate America to the wall in the way that maybe some on the list surely are able...but your average "american", having been droned by so many distortions over the years, so many alibi's etc...needs to piece it together better...Bullworth hammers away at corporate domination of the media for example, and reintroduces the question of socialized medicine in an, albeit, comical way....something's that's ongoing in many quarters of a broad struggle, and something that, I think Bullworth adds to............................................ The audience I saw it with cheered (out loud) at some of the things Beatty uttered...(incidently, I saw Beatty getting grilled by Cokie Roberts and Sam Donaldson over the movie...and he held up pretty good, "rope a' doped" them...in other words, some elements in the Ruling Class "got it"...) Michael Moore's The Big One is also an important movie, or rather documentary that lays bare some basic shifts in thinking that has to happen in order to not just abandon the twin parties of capital...but start looking in earnest to efforts that might have a better chance at represent working people's interests.... (If I weren't genuinely interested in that last, I could get real "smart" on the movie too... drag it to my plate, pick at it with a pedantic or aesthete's fork...raise my nose and push it away...) ------------- The foundation of SAWSJ (scholars, artists and writers for social justice, which Kent, to his credit, posts updates to on this list), the upcoming First Constitutional Convention of the Labor Party (two years after its Founding Convention), the recent Black Radical Congress (BRC), these and so many other cultural-political occasions signal a real response to the (seemingly uncontested) rule of Capital.... --------------- Dynamic Contextualization, not more static, empiricist, undialectical "sophistication"... Rodrigo Toscano ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 20:01:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Re: terms of endearment Comments: To: Rachel Loden MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Just wanted to add that the funniest line I've heard all week was to = call the President's address on Monday the "Ejaculation Proclamation" Can you imagine grade school kids having to memorize it? Stranger days ahead, I'm afraid . . . -----Original Message----- From: Rachel Loden To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Sent: 8/21/98 4:24 PM Subject: terms of endearment daniel bouchard wrote: > Clinton, Executive Stud Der =DCbershtupper, as I've been calling him this week--inspired by = (what my husband claims was) an English newspaper's name for Ken Starr, "Spermfinder General." But a poetical query: when Kenneth Koch refers to the "Poem Society" in "Fresh Air," is he talking about the Poetry Society of America? Rachel Loden ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 00:48:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" *** A brand new flava in ya mouth The company that gave the world Tamagotchi virtual pets is promoting what it hopes will be the next hot toy: a battery-operated lollipop holder that plays music inside people's mouths. The microphone-sized toy called Silent Shout plays a tune by vibrating a lollipop stuck into the device, Bandai Co. spokesman Masashi Umeda said Thursday. The instrumental songs include a hip-hop rhythm. "One of the merits is that the sound won't annoy others," he said. The toy works by conducting sounds through the teeth. The sounds then echo into the inner ear. It will go on sale in Japan next month for about $10. (AP) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 21 Aug 1998 22:03:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Nude Poetry Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Has anyone any info on the reported craze for nude poetry readings that is sweeping Europe? My informant is an acquaintance at the health club where I work out. He told me it had begun in Vienna, and subsequently had fanned out across Europe. I immediately raised the weight I was pumping by 10 pounds. Mentally I echoed Giancarlo from _7 Beauties_ (is it?), "oh no, my ass has fallen!" DB3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 01:46:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Heian Aesthetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Heian Aesthetics a baskt of vrtical woodn slats hld loosly togthr and thy'r frayd on th dgs how could anything rmain in it just th touch of th moonlight spilling on th arth or th spacs among th slats to th narby huts which possibly ar th only ways to think today whil ths words fall apart and cruis missils targt th 's ________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 03:38:57 -0400 Reply-To: CD Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CD Subject: lowell In-Reply-To: <199808220403.AAA10679@alcor.concordia.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII robert who?? hahah, what matter we all know Lowell is out there in the spinning uni-verse of verse with Eliot, Pound, Tzara, H.D., Ashberry, et tant d'autres et tant d'autres...Lowell, what a lovely sounding poetic name. And oh oh how those l's roll. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 09:31:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Re: Nude Poetry In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" d- heard a report on th npr/bbc radio show "the world" yesterday; sounded more like an event (staged reading, 2 shows, in london) than a movement... over the radio, the poetry seemed to have little to say... lbd > Has anyone any info on the reported craze for nude poetry readings >that is sweeping Europe? My informant is an acquaintance at the health club >where I work out. He told me it had begun in Vienna, and subsequently had >fanned out across Europe. I immediately raised the weight I was pumping by >10 pounds. Mentally I echoed Giancarlo from _7 Beauties_ (is it?), "oh no, >my ass has fallen!" > >DB3 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:02:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: for the sake of _the continuity girl_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - for the sake of _the continuity girl_ (by _the continuity girl_) the _need_ of _the continuity girl_ who doesn't know what she needs or what freud wants but who knows she's needed to keep the world afloat from explosions and cruise missiles and the wrong ties on a man dressed up for dinner and the wrong dress on a woman tied up, online, she's addicted, he's waiting, they're poorly dressed for the occasions, cocaine but the _need_ of _the continuity girl_ so that the building or flesh doesn't suddenly change shape across the charred body of the _dramatic-script boy,_ so that the world doesn't cave as disease explodes as the man cruises for the woman, as the man's tied to the woman who constantly changes her name while he fires her gun at her name, while she changes into her name, her name into hers for the _need_ of _the continuity girl_ goes across all culture, civilization, society, goes across all movie-magic, special effects, goes across all normal effects, tie on the woman, dress on the man, as they're on a cruise and _dramatic-script boy_ rises from the dead skin-grafted from _the continuity girl_ and the building missile totters, wait a minute _______________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 11:17:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Bullworth In-Reply-To: <6e5f8414.35de1622@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I agree with Kent Johnson and Rodrigo Toscano on this one. Bulworth needs to be viewed in the context of what people usually see at our theaters-- Harrison Ford as Prez personally "taking out" terrorists, for instance. In light of the usual crap and for its alomst "brechtian" engagement of theatrical modes and auduence address, I thought it was way beyond my usual movie experience. Maxine Chernoff On Fri, 21 Aug 1998, Rodrigo Toscano wrote: > Dear List, > > After reading the several posts on Bullworth I thought I'd kick in with my > take on it. > > Yes, the politics of race (and gender) in it are often confused and > obsfucatory (some in ways that can't be resuscitated)......... > > And it's a silly premise, some official going bonkers and rapping and all > that... > > BUT (and here I share Kent Johnston's enthusiasm for it) > > It gets its licks in...something that doesn't happen often...to a wide > audience...and it pins Corporate America to the wall in the way that maybe > some on the list surely are able...but your average "american", having been > droned by so many distortions over the years, so many alibi's etc...needs to > piece it together better...Bullworth hammers away at corporate domination of > the media for example, and reintroduces the question of socialized medicine in > an, albeit, comical way....something's that's ongoing in many quarters of a > broad struggle, and something that, I think Bullworth adds > to............................................ > > The audience I saw it with cheered (out loud) at some of the things Beatty > uttered...(incidently, I saw Beatty getting grilled by Cokie Roberts and Sam > Donaldson over the movie...and he held up pretty good, "rope a' doped" > them...in other words, some elements in the Ruling Class "got it"...) > > Michael Moore's The Big One is also an important movie, or rather documentary > that lays bare some basic shifts in thinking that has to happen in order to > not just abandon the twin parties of capital...but start looking in earnest to > efforts that might have a better chance at represent working people's > interests.... > > (If I weren't genuinely interested in that last, I could get real "smart" on > the movie too... drag it to my plate, pick at it with a pedantic or aesthete's > fork...raise my nose and push it away...) > > ------------- > > The foundation of SAWSJ (scholars, artists and writers for social justice, > which Kent, to his credit, posts updates to on this list), the upcoming First > Constitutional Convention of the Labor Party (two years after its Founding > Convention), the recent Black Radical Congress (BRC), these and so many other > cultural-political occasions signal a real response to the (seemingly > uncontested) rule of Capital.... > > --------------- > > > Dynamic Contextualization, not more static, empiricist, undialectical > "sophistication"... > > > > Rodrigo Toscano > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 12:37:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Folks, I've been asked to teach a graduate course on American Comedy, and I was wondering if people on the list had suggestions for material. I've taught similar courses and have reached back to Franklin, Royall Tyler, Twain (of course), Chaplin, John Leguizamo's Mambo Mouth, and others. I'll do the same -- but I'm looking for additional suggestions. I have a take: that as the 20th century progresses, comedy in literature and performance becomes an increasingly major mode, more respected than when Twain was "merely" a humorist (as oppossed to being a traitor, which he preferred, during the Philippine war), and that, paired with the horrific, particularly in "black" comedy and satire, has become a characteristically modern (or post-modern, if you prefer) sensibility. So, I would want students to read Kenneth Koch, Frank O'Hara, Ginsberg, and others. Any other suggestions from the entire stretch of 19th and 20th century poets, novelists, essayists, performers? Also, there is very little theoretical discussion on the nature of laughter and comedy -- and (perhaps fortunately) no single dominant theory (superiority, relief, incongruity are the three major categories, and there issome recent research on the biological effects of laughter). There are, of course, Bakhtin's wonderful insights, but do people know of others? I would appreciate any suggestions and discussions of this. It's at least worth a laugh. Thanks, Hilton Obenzinger ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 13:15:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Check out Legman's encyclopedic volumes _The Anatomy of the Dirty Joke_. At 12:37 PM 8/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >Dear Folks, > >I've been asked to teach a graduate course on American Comedy, and I was >wondering if people on the list had suggestions for material. I've taught >similar courses and have reached back to Franklin, Royall Tyler, Twain (of >course), Chaplin, John Leguizamo's Mambo Mouth, and others. I'll do the >same -- but I'm looking for additional suggestions. I have a take: that >as the 20th century progresses, comedy in literature and performance >becomes an increasingly major mode, more respected than when Twain was >"merely" a humorist (as oppossed to being a traitor, which he preferred, >during the Philippine war), and that, paired with the horrific, >particularly in "black" comedy and satire, has become a characteristically >modern (or post-modern, if you prefer) sensibility. So, I would want >students to read Kenneth Koch, Frank O'Hara, Ginsberg, and others. Any >other suggestions from the entire stretch of 19th and 20th century poets, >novelists, essayists, performers? Also, there is very little theoretical >discussion on the nature of laughter and comedy -- and (perhaps >fortunately) no single dominant theory (superiority, relief, incongruity >are the three major categories, and there issome recent research on the >biological effects of laughter). There are, of course, Bakhtin's >wonderful insights, but do people know of others? I would appreciate any >suggestions and discussions of this. It's at least worth a laugh. > >Thanks, > >Hilton Obenzinger > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:16:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might also look at the work of Eric Bogosian (http://www.users.interport.net/~ararat/index.html) and Spalding Gray. Both monologists, both humorous/poetic, though Bogosian much darker, humor-wise. BTW, Bogosian starred in a wonderful movie "Talk Radio," based on murdered radio host Alan Berg (sp?) --directed by Oliver Stone. Mark Weiss wrote: > Check out Legman's encyclopedic volumes _The Anatomy of the Dirty Joke_. > > At 12:37 PM 8/22/98 -0700, you wrote: > >Dear Folks, > > > >I've been asked to teach a graduate course on American Comedy, and I was > >wondering if people on the list had suggestions for material. I've taught > >similar courses and have reached back to Franklin, Royall Tyler, Twain (of > >course), Chaplin, John Leguizamo's Mambo Mouth, and others. I'll do the > >same -- but I'm looking for additional suggestions. I have a take: that > >as the 20th century progresses, comedy in literature and performance > >becomes an increasingly major mode, more respected than when Twain was > >"merely" a humorist (as oppossed to being a traitor, which he preferred, > >during the Philippine war), and that, paired with the horrific, > >particularly in "black" comedy and satire, has become a characteristically > >modern (or post-modern, if you prefer) sensibility. So, I would want > >students to read Kenneth Koch, Frank O'Hara, Ginsberg, and others. Any > >other suggestions from the entire stretch of 19th and 20th century poets, > >novelists, essayists, performers? Also, there is very little theoretical > >discussion on the nature of laughter and comedy -- and (perhaps > >fortunately) no single dominant theory (superiority, relief, incongruity > >are the three major categories, and there issome recent research on the > >biological effects of laughter). There are, of course, Bakhtin's > >wonderful insights, but do people know of others? I would appreciate any > >suggestions and discussions of this. It's at least worth a laugh. > > > >Thanks, > > > >Hilton Obenzinger > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:20:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think it's important to get hold of Artemus Ward, whose London presen- tations/performances were published, complete with voice inflections, etc. He's like an intense W.C. Fields from the 1800s and a precursor of a lot - including performance art and narrative film. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 14:08:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Cheezem Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Electroshock. Bang -- no, not bang. Yes, _not-bang!_... God! And headache after. -- Hayden Carruth This haiku always amazed me for its mix of poignant grief and verbal wit. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 15:09:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980822131545.0092fe10@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Correction: _The Rationale of the Dirty Joke_. Freud wrote a few essays on humor and jokes--someone out there should be able to reference these better than I have. It's an endless category, of course. Don't forget Gunslinger. At 01:15 PM 8/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >Check out Legman's encyclopedic volumes _The Anatomy of the Dirty Joke_. > > >At 12:37 PM 8/22/98 -0700, you wrote: >>Dear Folks, >> >>I've been asked to teach a graduate course on American Comedy, and I was >>wondering if people on the list had suggestions for material. I've taught >>similar courses and have reached back to Franklin, Royall Tyler, Twain (of >>course), Chaplin, John Leguizamo's Mambo Mouth, and others. I'll do the >>same -- but I'm looking for additional suggestions. I have a take: that >>as the 20th century progresses, comedy in literature and performance >>becomes an increasingly major mode, more respected than when Twain was >>"merely" a humorist (as oppossed to being a traitor, which he preferred, >>during the Philippine war), and that, paired with the horrific, >>particularly in "black" comedy and satire, has become a characteristically >>modern (or post-modern, if you prefer) sensibility. So, I would want >>students to read Kenneth Koch, Frank O'Hara, Ginsberg, and others. Any >>other suggestions from the entire stretch of 19th and 20th century poets, >>novelists, essayists, performers? Also, there is very little theoretical >>discussion on the nature of laughter and comedy -- and (perhaps >>fortunately) no single dominant theory (superiority, relief, incongruity >>are the three major categories, and there issome recent research on the >>biological effects of laughter). There are, of course, Bakhtin's >>wonderful insights, but do people know of others? I would appreciate any >>suggestions and discussions of this. It's at least worth a laugh. >> >>Thanks, >> >>Hilton Obenzinger >> >> > > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 17:24:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You shouldn't neglect comix from 1960's on, especially in re: concrete, vispo, and visual poetic humor? tom bell Hilton Manfred Obenzinger wrote: > > Dear Folks, > > I've been asked to teach a graduate course on American Comedy, and I was > wondering if people on the list had suggestions for m ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 18:58:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone have current coordinates for Geragd Malanga? bc, please. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 19:25:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > I have a take: that >as the 20th century progresses, comedy in literature and performance >becomes an increasingly major mode > >Hilton Obenzinger I think that you are onto it now. But the drift is not only USAmerican. I think that almost all major fiction, for instance, of the recent past has been comedic. There is Beckett at the top end, if you like, and Kurt Vonnegut down here. But look at the comic writers. Ishmael Reed. Jerome Charyn. Italo Calvino. John Hawkes (sometimes), Gerald Vizenor. Philip Roth. Don DeLillo. Mordecai Richler. Harry Mathews. Flan O'Brien. Donald Barthelme. Douglas Woolf. I dont find a lot of women on this list, do I? I think that the women writers I read are more likely to be into irony, like Atwood, like Modernists. George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 22 Aug 1998 22:53:02 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: Bullworth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > Bulworth needs > to be viewed in the context of what people usually see at our theaters-- > this was basically Baraka's point when he read here at Vertigo Books about two weeks ago. He told of Beatty calling him up and asking him to participate, and he rejoining that he would do it if he got to write his lines. Beatty said he'd have to get back to him. He called Baraka back a couple of hours later with the carte blanche. He said Beatty cut a lot of him, but he thought the movie deserved attention, compared to, say, Godzilla. or other U.S. aesthetic somnambulism. He also told how he was supposed to fly to some hollywood soiree for the film's opening, but declined because he was working with his son Raz on a campaign for a city council seat in Newark. He read a powerful elegiac poem about Paul Robeson, a few low-coo about Bill Clinton and Marion Barry, and ended the day by performing with David Murray. pumped up, syncopated spondee truth telling during dark days of bull marketss. mc ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:56:29 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Ivory tower, etymology thereof Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Someone asked where the phrase "ivory tower" comes from. According to the excellent Random House Websters Unabridged Electronic Dictionary:=20 i=C6vory tow=C6er, =20 1. a place or situation remote from worldly or practical affairs: the university as an ivory tower.=20 2. an attitude of aloofness from or disdain or disregard for worldly or practical affairs: his ivory tower of complacency.=20 [trans. of F tour d'ivoire, phrase used by C.A. Sainte-Beuve in reference to the isolated life of the poet A. de Vigny (1837)] So. =20 from John Tranter, 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/tranter/3poems-interview.html Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 08:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: Comedy Comments: cc: Hilton Obenzinger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can't imagine approaching this topic without including the work of Anselm Hollo, whose light-handed touch has, I suspect, caused some people not to realize what a wonderful writer he is, and what an important, even pervasive influence he has been over the past 30 years -- from Ted Berrigan to Barrett Watten to yours truly. Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 10:08:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: John Lennon Murdered! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A mob of dimwitted teens has been camped outside the Sutton Place for 48 hours in the rain, waiting for some Spice Girl to emerge. I walked by and said "Hey, horrible news, eh?" They said, "What happened?" I said, "John Lennon of the Beatles? Some madman has shot and killed him!" They looked horribly stricken. They said, "Oh no, who did it? Why'd they do it? Did they get the guy? When did it happen?" Which of course is reminscent of Ezra Pound's definition of literature: News that stays news. dwm "Rev. Mr. Monday, the Prophet with a Punch, has converted over two hundred thousand lost and priceless souls at an average cost of less than ten dollars a head." - Sinclair Lewis, Babbitt (1922). ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:06:18 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: <000f01bdce9d$a8048de0$baa4fea9@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anselm Hollo's "Pebbles" will be the next title in my Backwoods Broadsides Chaplet Series. "Pebbles" & Meredith Quartermain's "Veers" will be going to press any day, for mailing in mid-Sept. Subscription is $10. yr for eight issues. Sylvester Pollet, 963 Winkumpaugh Rd., Ellsworth ME 04605. p.s. Ron, forgive the commercial. S. At 8:52 AM -0500 8/23/98, Ron Silliman wrote: >I can't imagine approaching this topic without including the work of Anselm >Hollo, whose light-handed touch has, I suspect, caused some people not to >realize what a wonderful writer he is, and what an important, even pervasive >influence he has been over the past 30 years -- from Ted Berrigan to Barrett >Watten to yours truly. > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net >rsillima@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 11:27:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: louis stroffolino Subject: Re: Bullworth Comments: To: michael corbin In-Reply-To: <35DF840E.81C31E67@bellatlantic.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for the report of the baraka reading, michael I saw bullworth with kristin prevallet and alan gilbert a few momths back; we kept on saying it was "like voting" (or maybe even less ineffective)--- if beatty's movie actually makes money for them hollywood jerks maybe they'll actually take a chance on some young innovative person (that's the hope--- but then michael moore's becoming more like jay leno everyday) c On Sat, 22 Aug 1998, michael corbin wrote: > MAXINE CHERNOFF wrote: > > > Bulworth needs > > to be viewed in the context of what people usually see at our theaters-- > > > > this was basically Baraka's point when he read here at Vertigo Books about two weeks > > ago. > > He told of Beatty calling him up and asking him to participate, and he rejoining > that he would do it if he got to write his lines. Beatty said he'd have to get back > to him. He called Baraka back a couple of hours later with the carte blanche. > > He said Beatty cut a lot of him, but he thought the movie deserved attention, > compared to, say, Godzilla. or other U.S. aesthetic somnambulism. > > He also told how he was supposed to fly to some hollywood soiree for the film's > opening, but declined because he was working with his son Raz on a campaign for a > city council seat in Newark. > > He read a powerful elegiac poem about Paul Robeson, a few low-coo about Bill > Clinton and Marion Barry, and ended the day by performing with David Murray. pumped > up, syncopated spondee truth telling during dark days of bull marketss. > > mc > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 16:05:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "B. Taylor" Subject: Re Comedy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Are you including any novels by Dawn Powell? She's a mid-century satirist of cultural life in New York, where she lived, and provincial life in Ohio, where she was from. She's something of a subtler, more prolific Dorothy Parker, though this description does not do her justice. Her work is enjoying a long overdue revival just now. Brigham ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 15:30:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Re: comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ever notice how the accusation of "humorlessness" is hurled to discredit a) feminism b) the left c) anything the accuser doesn't like? I've even heard it in respect to Language poetry, in which I find much humor. If comedy is perspectival, a lot of this depends on one's perspective, obviously. I don't find most "humorists" very amusing for example... Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 14:56:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Comedy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The amerkan Blake, Don Marquis, Archy and Mehitabel, the californian blake, Ken Patchen, he's funnier than Henry Miller, Antler's Factory has been known to turn many a dinner party into hysteria unbound Ed Dorn can be so funny you skip laughing and go right to the tears, ditto Ed Sanders, Frank Zappa Bobbie Louis Hawkins, she's funny, so's her X, Chester Himes Pinktoes, or the Coffin Ed and Gravedigger Jones series(Cotton Comes to Harlem, etc.) are savagely hilarious. billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 Yeah, I stole from the treasury of human folly I spent it all on you, baby... don't mention it Duncan McNaughton ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 20:00:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Risible or not, we all do it, in full recognition that what is produced is necessarily at least as much an artifact of the receiving culture and poet as of the culture and poet of origin, despite one's best intentions. But you've raised the ante, I think. Junction Press, of which I am the publisher, has released one translation (The Duration of the Voyage, by Argentine poet Luisa Futoransky) and is soon to release another (Stet, by Cuban poet Jose Kozer). In each case the work, widely recognized by readers of the language of origin, has been virtually unknown in the English-speaking world. But, if I read you aright, these don't count, as Spanish is a European language. And I certainly would agree with you that African and Asian languages are far less well represented in English translation. Not hard to understand in non-theoretical, non-litwar terms--few of our poets know these languages well enough to give it a shot. But let me throw in a piece of self-justification. My program is precisely to publish translations of work in the _other_ American languages. To most of my compatriots the world south of the border scarcely exists except for a few resorts. Even among poets there is little access to contemporary poetry of our nearest unknown neighbors. Job one seems to me to remedy that situation. I should think that British translators would be most interested in uncovering work in the other languages of their own intimate strangers, the peoples they used to govern, large numbers of whom now live among them. At 01:21 PM 8/23/98 +0000, you wrote: > >My circumstances make it difficult for me to specify my sources; a lot of >what I read in contemporary poetry and poetics passes through my book >business, is sold, and i never see it again. Not being an academic I don't >need to keep bibliographical records of everything. The specific thing that >sparked off my remarks about USA and translation was a publication which >was a celebration of the "poetry community" at SUNYAB, which I sold months >ago. There was in it a glossary of critical and theoretical terms, with an >entry under "Translation" which made it clear that the whole idea of >translating poetry was looked upon as risible. It surely must be so in a >large part of the "postmodernist" theoretical zone: if reality is >structured on language than you can't go around switching languages without >changing the entire substance. (Indeed so much of that kind of theory goes >around talking of language as if there were only one language). Or for >instance, if in Susan Howe's work on Emily Dickinson the poem is a SPELL of >such power that even typesetting destroys it, and the millimetre placing of >a holograph stroke must be preserved; translation wd obviously be out of >the question. > > > > >I'm not engaged in any anti-Americanism here; these are specific instances. >I admire Susan Howe's poetry and criticism very much. I've never been to >the States. Americans have spoken to me repeatedly of how much world news >is absent from American news and people there don't know or care what's >happening in the rest of the world. > >A literary example is that very funny thing The Dictionary of Received >Ideas (1997). Comparing it with Flaubert's original Dictionnaire I got a >strong impression of an academic / poetic community which was almost >entirely interested in its own present tense (Flaubert only had one entry >for a living writer, for instance) and to which, again, "Paris is the only >abroad there is." > >There's nothing necessarily wrong with these conditions. And they certainly >produce some interesting poetry (especially from the rumoured author of the >Dictionary for instance). I just happen to believe that North America and >Western Europe are going to have to get on with other parts of the world >and especially the Arab world and Africa on equal terms, or there's going >to be a bigger crisis than anyone at present dares to imagine. One of the >functions left to poetry might be to pursue comprehension on an intimate >cultural level by translation and poetical praxis. Events in the news at >present incline me to despair on the whole subject. > > >/PR > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 23 Aug 1998 23:23:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maz881@AOL.COM Subject: ahsbery review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit i think this was in the new criterion: That old rascal John Ashbery has long passed the grand climacteric (he turns seventy-one this year), and perhaps it's too late to expect the dog to learn new tricks. His softly inflated, discount surrealism looks as easy as ever. Like many poets who settle into the comfort of a style, he's inimitable -- if you imitated him you'd not just sound like Ashbery, you'd BE Ashbery. I don't know why poets don't open Renaissance workshops and have apprentice poets knock off poems in the master's style, but perhaps that's what writing workshops do already. Wakefulness is like a lot of recent Ashbery (has anyone noticed there's an awful lot of recent Ashbery -- over 700 pages this decade?), seamless in its disjunctions, playful in its nonsense or pretend sense, irritatingly elusive, woolly and woolgathering. He's like a music-hall comedian who doesn't bother to vary his delivery one year to the next: you hear the catchphrases and you laugh, not because he's funny, but because he's not funny. His comedy has a tragic edge, though he's now less like Keaton than Beckett -- with a lot more words. Ashbery's most delicious lines are about language or literature: We thought we had seen a few new adjectives, but nobody was too sure. They might have been gerunds, or bunches of breakfast. . . The poem drifting off here is titled "Last Night I dreamed I Was in Bucharest," and the movement toward waking and hunger is something Freud would have understood. It has the dreamy logic that makes so much of Ashbery's poetry a storehouse of half-forgotten phrases, giddy echoes of other poems: Whitman, say ("Once, on Manhatta's bleak shore,/ I trolled for spunkfish"), or Yeats ("Things break. Yes, they fail/ or they are anchored up ahead"). One poem is composed entirely of quotations. Ashbery's poems revel in their detachments, their refusal of narrative, their refusal of most of the traditional supports of poetry. He proves how little poetry depends on creating meaning -- the urge to make meaning is so strong, the reader will supply what the words cannot. Ashbery's poems indefinitely postpone the promise of sense; but, even as they promise, the poems erase their own existence, falling forward rather than leaning back (poetry is one of the arts that usually depend on acknowledging the past) -- you can't remember at the end of a poem how or why it started. The poem itself doesn't remember. Ashbery's poems have the equivalent of Alzheimer's disease. Ashbery isn't often so dreadful (there are few lines like "all over the paisley fields dominoes are braying" or "A diagonal lipstick/ chased him across the street"), but when he's bad he's as rotten as poetry gets. The destitution of his phrases is also his strength. His work reminds us how much of contemporary poetry survives on its little narratives, its clumsy emotional urgency: the impertinence of his poems acts most tellingly not in books but one by one in magazines, where they mock little gray-flannel poems (well, poems of any cloth). Ashbery's work looks better the more you forget it (the more you suffer from Alzheimer's, perhaps), and he has become a poet of severe importance for what his verse denies rather than what it accepts. There's scarcely a poem worth reading again; but few poets have so severely manipulated, or just plain tortured, our soiled desire for meaning. He reminds us that most poets who give us meaning don't know what they're talking about. -- reviewed by William Logan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 00:09:52 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dan or Orion Raphael Dlugonski Subject: the continuity girl In-Reply-To: <199808231602.JAA24530@mail4.aracnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" loved that 'continuity person' concept in sondheims poem and wrote this: the change that binds the body of continuity, one of every 1000 bodies caroming on invisible tracks bounding off the potential bodies we carry around us like psychic spheres, cones of silence, half-inflated inner tubes wrapped around the bumper cars draining from our credit cards like a burnt out washedr somewhere inside the heart where so many jokes were stopped to consider, frisked at the border, so many half expressions misinterpreted as meanings ripple i couldnt feel walking 2 feet into the pavement, not deep enough to live again, eating from the inside, like the earth does, eating with a inward focussed vortex, each step a chord on the damaged/ mistreated/ neglected,/surprisingly well-preserved piano of my body rolling through this similarly mysterious cityscape this hour has never existed, doesnt have a corresponding number to dial the beeping in my chest says do something right now, do what you forgot, why keep walking straight with so many fractal corners, corners the edges have worn off of, occasional bites when just trying to get grounded, to get a taste that settles me in to look back at what didn't work, piles of chipped teeth i keep gnetly vibrating the base of to settle and merge so something rises i shouldn't repeat, should go where the gaps are, where my foot might still fit if the shoes are close enough to the toes haven't forgotten how to hold since we seldom rise to look over, to catch a better 2 inches of air, like dogs catching flies in their mouth, frisbees and flies and mosquitoes, cats juggling cockroaches, agents of change of decomposition, \ who knows why eyes met and this thin segment of the world wide river is elsewhere & calm, when change is not moving, a new lumpy sphere of visual indentations, convex caves dimpled with triggers doorways or traps coz you get caught there, stuck there, disoriented by the reality of it, how it makes your river opaque just a blink, makes the river static and stalling coz youre so porous so thin in resolution, not enough pixels sure of their codes, those off tones that round, those unintended relationships dumping something into the river we didn't know was washing into us-- a new layer finally revealed. another nerve brushed with a different strum one hand for a split second reveals the moving threads of its fray im into covering myself with those stars, smashed micro-gnats of change, spores that stay in my skin, meteors of a million bits a gauze curtain across the mouth of this unexpected room surprising architectural memories, like one morning the radios tuner going further afield, pulling several songs through each other, echoes raining back from space songs around the sun, in the flares of mass nuclear uncertainty: the smallest burning hole in the center of my brain, t he event horizon never closer without mountains, sudden chasms pretending to crack, adding weight to the tease, i smell the bait from so many years away, like a star i don't know how long its been decomposing, liberating music from artificial stricture, retraining the ears to be dimensional, being naked to add thousands of ears, thousands of photo-voltaics increase the nerve areas receptivity, the number of different dances at once: how one body can reflect whats unknown in another after touching, sinking some centimeters into each other ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:35:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grotjohn Organization: Mary Baldwin College Subject: Poetry On-line, a request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I want my intro poetry students to explore on-line poetry mixing images and words. I had been saving all list messages with addresses of such sites, but when our computer people upgraded my machine, all the messages disappeared. I will appreciate it if list members could take a moment to send me addresses for their own sites or their favorite other-poet's sites. I have looked through some stuff at the EPC web site and now am asking for recommendations. I suppose back-channel would keep the list from getting cluttered. Thanks in advance to those who help me out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 08:56:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "r. drake" Subject: Re: Postmodern Piracy Festival /Call for Participants In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" folks interested in plagerism may have already seen this, but... >FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE > >NEGATIVLAND STOPPED DEAD (see also http://www.negativland.com/riaa/index.html) > Contacts: mailto:mark@negativland.com (Mark Hosler, Negativland) > mailto:hrosen@riaa.com (Hilary Rosen, President and CEO, > Recording Industry Assocation of America) > mailto:ray.thomas@rtmark.com (Ray Thomas, RTMARK) > >The career of recording artists Negativland may be over. > >Negativland's CD plant has told the group that it will no longer >manufacture their CDs, and Negativland has so far been unable to find >another factory willing to do so. The reason, according to Mark Hosler of >Negativland, is the RIAA's recent guidelines to compact disk pressing >plants, which inform the plants that they risk huge lawsuits if they >manufacture CDs with even one uncleared sample. > >Negativland uses uncleared samples extensively, and consider this to be >Fair Use under the 1976 U.S. Copyright Act. Still, the group has had to >establish their own label because other labels consider Negativland music >too legally risky to distribute. With this new offensive by the RIAA, CD >factories feel they cannot afford the risk either, which effectively >silences Negativland. > >Many bands besides Negativland--including Beck, Beastie Boys, Public Enemy, >Nine Inch Nails, etc.--routinely use uncleared samples, but only >Negativland, Illegal Art (which with RTMARK's help produced Deconstructing >Beck), and a few others do so openly, and as an essential part of their >esthetic. > >According to Ray Thomas of RTMARK, whose Intellectual Property mutual fund >(http://rtmark.com/projectlist.html) is managed by Negativland, "The >industry saw how much bad publicity Geffen and BMG suffered for >trying--unsuccessfully--to clamp down on Deconstructing Beck. They realized >public opinion would not let them get away with such high-handed tactics, >so now they're cleverly targeting production, which has a much lower public >profile than distribution, but is even more important. The RIAA is putting >CD manufacturers in the position of policing what is and is not acceptable >art, and is thus very effectively practicing censorship." > >The problem is a fundamental misunderstanding of copyright law, according >to Thomas. "The music industry says copyright law protects artists. But >copyright law as applied to samples serves only to protect corporate money. >As the recording industry forces this issue to a head, we hope that the >facts will finally become clear, and that the groundwork will be laid to >change copyright law so that it benefits artists and consumers, not >corporations and capital." > >Negativland's full press release, including e-mail addresses of many RIAA >employees, as well as a response by Hilary Rosen, President and CEO of the >RIAA, can be found at http://www.negativland.com/riaa/index.html. > > >RTMARK was established in 1991 to further anti-corporate activism, in some >cases by channelling funds from donors to workers for sabotage of corporate >products. Recent and upcoming acts of RTMARK-aided subversion are >documented on RTMARK's web site, http://rtmark.com/. > > # 30 # > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 11:11:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I recently found a used copy of an out-of-print essay/monograph on Laurel and Hardy, by Charles Barr. His sketches of the great silents that they made from 1928-1932 gave me a new appreciation for their acting and the sophistication (if that is not too grandiose a word) of their jokes. The narrative structures of their violent gags and the timing of their moves back and forth between anarchic and normative behavior represent the culmination of this historical form. The inability of Stan and Ollie to maintain an adult role or to act for very long out of any motivations but selfishness or tit-for-tat revenge makes for a useful counterpoint to the more sentimental aspects of Chaplin. If you have enough time or resources to include them in any treatment of the silent comedy, you might show a couple of their shorts (starting with Putting Pants on Phillip). Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:19:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: Resent-From: Poetics List Comments: Originally-From: dwm@EDU.YorkU.CA (David W. McFadden) From: Poetics List Subject: Re: Bullworth MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Further to the proposed (by me) canonization, by the Poetics community, of Mr. Warren Beatty, the information about his help in smuggling manuscripts out of a formerly overly politicized police state known at the time as the Soviet Union (do you remember it?) is on p. lviii of the "Compiler's Introduction" (under the heading "Warren Beatty, the Crocodile 'Diplomat'") of Yevtushenko's Twentieth Century Russian Poetry: Silver and Steel (New York: Doubleday, 1993). Worth a look to be sure. Big book. 1000 pages, and still with a strongly subversive tone throughout. Also particularly worth a look is the previous section, entitled "And What If Governments Were Run by Poets?" (p. lvi). Amiri ("Be a spirit, not a ghost") Baraka does not get a mention, since Bullworth hadn't appeared at the time. Y.B.Nasty Department of Emotional Engineering Soma University "She cleans her ears with drops in the market." - Victor Coleman, Waiting for Alice. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 10:56:57 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: bullworth Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think it was Mike Magee who didn't like me insulting poor old Warren Beatty. I think he'll survive, and what are stars for?? As for assuming Beatty didn't want to listen to my executive friend, all I can say is the feeling I got from HER is that she couldn't really say what she thought to him BECAUSE OF THE POWER DYNAMICS OF THE SITUATION, thus, in my reading, there was no way for him to really listen or for her to really speak. I refuse to be so happy about a movie-that-makes-me-or-those-less-"smart"-than-me think when its so PROBLEMATIC!! I'd rather see a well done movie about not much at all than a mediocre "thoughtful" one. Honestly, Katie John! Elizabeth Treadwell Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 13:56:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Magdalena Zurawski Subject: Help! Comments: To: listproc@hawaii.edu, DOUGLAS.ROTHCHILD@penguin.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Help! Who can (in the next ten minutes) give me the name of the Canadian poet who did all his poems in Kling-On at the Boston Conference in July? And what was the name of the lady poet who Doug and I both liked and gave that odd speech on O'Hara? Help, Help?? Maggie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:09:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Latta Subject: Query In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980823200033.0092b4a0@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Seeking an e-mail address for Kevin Opstedal. Please backchannel. Thanks. John Latta ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:20:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: comedy Comments: To: jmayhew@EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit jmayhew@EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU writes: >Ever notice how the accusation of "humorlessness" is hurled to discredit >a) feminism Yes, obviously, numerous times, > b) the left ditto, >c) anything the accuser doesn't like? constantly >I've even >heard it in respect to Language poetry, in which I find much humor. So do all other honest, independent, careful readers. >comedy is perspectival, a lot of this depends on one's perspective, >obviously. I don't find most "humorists" very amusing for example... Nobody does, they try too hard. All this having been said, there is in fact very little humour, except for the bare bones of bitter irony, in , say, Margaret Atwood and Doris Lessing whom I've been checking out lately, and nobody here wants to "discredit" feminism. More importantly, for me at any rate, I still fail to find any humour in Don DeLillo. He has been mentioned as a comic author but in the two of his I've read - Libra and The Names - there are about as many smiles, ironic twists, anything of that sort, as there would be, presumably, sunbathers at the South Pole. Can somebody give me a title and page number where an example of his humour can be found? dwm "Say what you like, the English are the only people who know how to bring up children, I don't care if that's insular." - Doris Lessing. A Man and Two Women (1963). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 14:30:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII P.S. to my post on Laurel and Hardy: For what it's worth, Ashbery borrows the title of one their films, "Laughing Gravy," for a poem published in Wakefulness. I have no idea if the phrase has any other significance.... Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:15:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Katherine Lederer Subject: Re: Susan Gevirtz In-Reply-To: <199808241756.KAA14527@lanfill.lanminds.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone have Susan Gevirtz' mailing address? I had something returned to sender... because I was missing the APARTMENT NUMBER. Thanks, Katy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:43:58 -0400 Reply-To: gmcvay1@osf1.gmu.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yeah, it's the nom de clown of Hugh Romney's younger brother. GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU wrote: > > P.S. to my post on Laurel and Hardy: > > For what it's worth, Ashbery borrows the title of one their films, > "Laughing Gravy," for a poem published in Wakefulness. I have no idea > if the phrase has any other significance.... > > Gary R. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:51:24 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Elena Garro MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mexico mourned writer and journalist Elena Garro Sunday, one of the pillars of its literary world, who died Saturday at age 78 after suffering a heart attack. They will bury Garro, the first wife of the late Mexican Nobel Prize winner Octavio Paz, in the city of Cuernavaca. Paz died last April. Uno mas Uno newspaper called Garro "a pillar of Mexican literature," while other newspapers published long extracts of her best-known work, "Memories of the Future" (Los Recuerdos del Porvenir). She married Paz in 1937 and the couple divorced almost 30 years later. A vocal champion of social justice, Garo spent more than 20 years living in exile in Paris after harshly slamming the 1968 massacre of 300 student demonstrators by Mexican troops. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 15:57:40 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Poetry On-line, a request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out the brand new Poet's & Writers. Perhaps you can use it for class, they have a decent crossection of sites listed. Be well David Baratier ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:27:09 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <3.0.3.32.19980824135626.006ee5f4@pop3.stern.nyu.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 24 Aug 1998, Magdalena Zurawski wrote: > Help! Who can (in the next ten minutes) give me the name of the Canadian > poet who did all his poems in Kling-On at the Boston Conference in July? Darren Wershler-Henry is the klingon guy. check out his nicholodeon on coach house. kevin |-------------------------------------------------------------| | And the near future when I'll shut up again, | | utterly baffled by these poems. | | Jacques Roubaud | |-------------------------------------------------------------| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:41:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know Christian Bok does Klingon poems - invented 'Klingon' in fact, and I think he was at that conference -- Ryan Aporia 504 Queen Street East Toronto, Ontario, Canada M5A 1V2 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:43:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII actually I could be wrong about his inventing Klingon, but I seem to rememerb this when he read at Canzine 97 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:50:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jacques Debrot Subject: Re: Ashbery, Talisman anthology, etc. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit It's not at all surprising, is it, that one mode of Ashbery's writing -- the mode of _The Double Dream of Spring_ for example -- is so well assimilated that the _New Criterion_ reviews it positively. The tone of complaint hinted at in the same review about the repetitiveness of A's recent work is overstated, perhaps, but not entirely inaccurate, particularly given Ashbery's extraordinary refusal, early in his career, to fetishize any single continuous, or essential, style. In this phase of his work, in fact, each of his books appears to develop out of a susceptibility, or desire for self- estrangement. This is evident particularly in _The Tennis Court Oath_ where the closeting of homosexual content mirrors Ashbery's suppression of the "voice" that in his previous collection, _Some Trees_, he says came naturally to him. Similarly, as Shoptaw points out, _Three Poems_ can be read as effacing the "densely meditative" _Double Dream of Spring_, _Flow Chart_,its predecesor _April Galleons_, and so on. However it *is* revealing to discover that what remains unassimilated by mainstream poetics in Ashbery's work -- those lines that the _NC_ found "dreadful" -- should resemble that element in O'Hara's work -- the surrealist O'Hara of "2nd Avenue" for example -- which many critics in their review of the recent Gooch bio, seemed to slam. To oversimplify, these 2 elements: 1. O'Hara's "unacceptable" poems -- including both the wilder surrealism of "2nd Av", "Easter", etc. & also, formally eccentric poems like "Biotherm" from which developed so much of the work of the 2nd generation New York School -- & 2. Ashbery's meditative mode -- though in this case closer perhaps to _A Wave_ & _Flow Chart_ than to _DDS_ -- seem to polarize (too strong a word?) the recent _Talisman_ _Anthology of New Am Poets_. (Which is not even to mention the excluded third term -- that is, with the exception, arguably, of Rod Smith -- those poets most *strongly* influenced by LangPo (Fitterman, Neilson, Brian Kim Stefans, etc.). The _NC_ article seems in any case to point out, or at any rate to suggest, the difficulties involved in "imitating" the Ashberyian mode (in the _Talisman_ anthology, a mode practiced for instance by Beth Anderson, Chris Stroffolino, & Susan Schultz most obviously). More interesting to me (admittedly a subjective response) is what strikes me as the *less acceptable* work (from the point of view of the mainstream) descending from O'Hara -- Jordan Davis, Bill Luoma, Mary Burger, Lee Ann Brown, etc. This work also seems to more readily assimilate a wider range of New Am poetries -- the Beats especially -- while being capacious enough to incorporate the extreme disjunctiveness of the most experimental Language texts. If LangPo can be compared to Conceptual art (with which it is roughly contemporay) in somehow problematizing the category "literature," (making it in a way "impossible," in its aftermath, to write poems, in the same way that it is said to be "impossible" to paint after Smithson) then the Neo_Expressionist's have as counterparts -- in their rejection of this "impossibility" -- the kind of maximalist poetics practiced by Tan Lin, the 2 Davis' (both Jordan & Tim), Luoma, etc. Would be curious to see how others see this. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:45:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Re: Help! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Help! Who can (in the next ten minutes) give me the name of the Canadian >poet who did all his poems in Kling-On at the Boston Conference in July? >And what was the name of the lady poet who Doug and I both liked and gave >that odd speech on O'Hara? > >Help, Help?? > >Maggie The poet's name is Darren Wershler-Henry, but he only read one poem is Kling-on, the rest were in English. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 16:58:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: bullworth Comments: To: Elizabeth Treadwell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Having worked for a time for Jim Cameron and as a development exec & staffer for others in the biz, I can assure you that the power dynamics Elizabeth refers to operate without respect to gender and are less likely to change than the laws of gravity. So Elizabeth, your friend is either naive about how the business works, or wonderfully idealistic. Even when it seems like your unvarnished opinion is being solicited in earnest, the fact is that the membrane is always less porous than it appears to be. And because directors and stars are bouyed by the most extraordinary vanity, which insulates and separates them from the world the rest of us dwell in, you never know when your honest opinion is going to come back and tear a gaping chunk out of your ass. This is why the whole industry is mired in mediocrity - because everyone's afraid to say what they really think. With the bottom line being CYA, it's amazing anything at all gets done. For Beatty to have arm-twisted Fox into making_Bulworth_ is something of a minor miracle then, even for all its flaws. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Elizabeth Treadwell To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: bullworth Date: Monday, August 24, 1998 12:56PM I think it was Mike Magee who didn't like me insulting poor old Warren Beatty. I think he'll survive, and what are stars for?? As for assuming Beatty didn't want to listen to my executive friend, all I can say is the feeling I got from HER is that she couldn't really say what she thought to him BECAUSE OF THE POWER DYNAMICS OF THE SITUATION, thus, in my reading, there was no way for him to really listen or for her to really speak. I refuse to be so happy about a movie-that-makes-me-or-those-less-"smart"-than-me think when its so PROBLEMATIC!! I'd rather see a well done movie about not much at all than a mediocre "thoughtful" one. Honestly, Katie John! Elizabeth Treadwell Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:36:30 -0700 Reply-To: ttheatre@sirius.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen and Trevor Organization: Tea Theatre Subject: mike magee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies all around... ...but, Mike, Fourteen Hills does have your work under consideration. Karen McKevitt ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:28:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Funny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Funny, how in the past 48 plus hours since the U.S. techno state-terrorist action (sure to inflame spiralling violence that will claim thousands) there has been one single post about it (from Dan Bouchard, hurrah) and a poem by Alan Sondheim, hurrah) and many, many posts in quite rapid succession (more urgently forthcoming, no doubt) about Comedy. This on what is (who can contest it?) the largest single gathering of "oppositional" poets and critics in the history of U.S. poetry. (Isn't that really wonderful when you dare to think about it? And here you are!) I wonder if any Sudanese were reading Kenneth Koch when the cruises hit? Ha, Ha, isn't that fucking funny? Wag the Finger, Kent ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 17:54:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: Re: Funny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Comedy is a serious business ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:16:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 1. Only the most serious artists can be really funny. 2. The short story is the ideal form for literary humour, possibly. 3. Dorothy Parker is grossly overrated as a comic writer. 4. Colette is somewhat overrated as a comic writer. 5. There are some absolutely head-spinningly hilarious stories in Flannery O'Connor's sadly brief oeuvre. 6. Some of the funniest writing of all time can be found in The Complete Stories of I. B. Singer, especially since you're looking for "Americans." dwm "Are you a German?" Karl asked to reassure himself further, for he had heard a great deal about the perils which threatened newcomers to America, particularly from the Irish. - Kafka, Amerika. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 05:23:40 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: A fine Mess--A finely Mess MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I very much like the introduction of comedy--Laurel and Hardy--into a/our discussions on poetics. Spicer's response to Buster Keaton, and others--has always seemed a perfect romance (a fine mess!) with cont. poetics. THat the silent age was an age of true innovation--that the medium of film itself was an intergration of new narrative techniques--that the beauty--the delicate beauty and sadness and lovliness of Keaton, L & H, Fatty A. , H. Llyod, and the "other" big star-- was a truly important art form--forum--as depicting a truly "american" world (machine and man and woman--isolation due to industrial rev., the fundamental sadness of capitalism, etc) as is the poetics of "this" world (u.s.a? 20th cent.) in a way that very few had done before --outside--of writing. A wonderful book on Keaton--now o/p (Buster Keaton) connects Keaton to Borges, Kafka (who most likely saw his work) and Cornell and other plastic artists. Let's talk more about film and poetry--about the silent age--about the silence in our work. Like my --as my--question on location: see The Desert Landscapes as film! See Keaton as The Sonnets--! Todd Baron ps: a great web site: (lacking address right now) is for the DAMFINOS--a Keaton fan club! pps: Warner Bothers Cartoons! (ReMap) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:33:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Fwd: Regeneration MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Allow me to recommend the new film Regeneration, with fascinating portrayals of World War I poets Siegfried Sassoon, who survived the fighting, and Wilfred Owen, who didn't. It's a painfully thoughtful anti-war film, realistic and never jingoistic. Beware the eyeball scene. dwm "For some people, when you say 'Timbuktu' it is like the end of the world, but that is not true. I am from Timbuktu, and I can tell you we are right at the heart of the world." - Ali Farka Toure. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:37:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Funny In-Reply-To: <269033F0A@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There's a great deal that hasn't been mentioned in the last 48 hours--did you know that an appeals court has nixed sampling as a census tool, dimming once again the chances for any real representation (I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reversal)? But, except in the sense that poetry has no borders, I'm not sure how relevant this is to the reasons that most members of this list have gathered here. I'm also less sure that I have a position on the bombings than I would once have been. In principle I'm against firing missiles and very aware of the damage our unchallenged dominance does and threatens to do. But the two bombs in Africa wounded some 5000, most by any definition innocent even in the eyes of the bomb-makers. One can question the efficacy of the US counterstrike, but the principle of retaliation to limit future such events is hard to argue with. I mean, that's a lost of maimed or dead who have inner lives as rich as my own--real people. Nor does world hegemony give the US a monopoly on brutality. The Sudanese government, case in point, has over half a million notches on its belt. In this case I frankly have no idea what I would do if I were king. So, now you've had a post. At 07:28 PM 8/24/98 -0500, you wrote: >Funny, how in the past 48 plus hours since the U.S. techno >state-terrorist action (sure to inflame spiralling violence that will >claim thousands) there has been one single post about it (from Dan >Bouchard, hurrah) and a poem by Alan Sondheim, hurrah) and many, many >posts in quite rapid succession (more urgently forthcoming, no doubt) >about Comedy. > >This on what is (who can contest it?) the largest single gathering of >"oppositional" poets and critics in the history of U.S. poetry. >(Isn't that really wonderful when you dare to think about it? And >here you are!) > >I wonder if any Sudanese were reading Kenneth Koch when the cruises >hit? > >Ha, Ha, isn't that fucking funny? > >Wag the Finger, > >Kent > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:18:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: not-so-funny In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980527120341.007c6ab0@postoffice.brown.edu> from "Brent Long" at May 27, 98 12:03:41 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I just saw, compliments of VH1, Cher and the Osman brothers singing a medley of Stevie Wonder songs dressed in in American flag outfits. Now, that is *not* funny! -m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:13:21 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: The Age of Experience Content-Type: text/plain Kent is right of course. In this age of manufactured consent and spectacular (literally) politics, the rapid demonization of Osama bin Laden in the weeks prior to the bombings should have been a telling signal that we were setting up a post-Hussein, post-Khomeini, post-Kaddafi enemy to go after. He has an advantage in that involves going to war with no state as such -- just the unilateral bombing of "terrorist sites." None of this is to say that the bombings in Nairobi & Dar were not utterly real & horrible, but anyone who has watched the Irish situation for all these decades (or Vietnam or Algeria in the late 1950s) could tell you that military offenses against terrorism basically NEVER work. What makes bombing politically permissable and, say, the use of such weaponry against various IRA irregulars "unacceptable" has everything to do with the skin tone and religion of the recipients of our cruise missile services. That some of the sites in Afghanistan that were targeted were built with US money tells you something about the brilliance with which our foreign policy has been conducted. And -- answer me this -- if the same group of people who could not tell that India was about to detonate nuclear weapons were to tell you that they had "irrefutable" (or even just "compelling") evidence as to the guilt of the bin Laden organization, how inclined would you be to believe them? I've noticed that the refutation of the idea that this was motivated by domestic politics has been based almost entirely on the idea that the plan was concocted 10 days in advance of the bombing, i.e., before the Monica speech (debacle that it was). But, hey, everyone knew Clinton was going to testify that Monday well in advance of that -- so that is one explanation that doesn't hold a lot o' water. I'm afraid that all we have done is to ratchet up the cycle of violence one more ugly twist. Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com Do NOT respond to the Tottels@Hotmail address. It is for listserv use only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:37:07 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: The Age of Experience In-Reply-To: <19980825021324.19838.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not sure, Ron, that you or Kent are wrong, "of course," not having a claim to your omniscience. I'm content to wait and see before coming to judgment. As to the domestic motivation, it's hard to imagine that the missiles will deflect Hillary's anger. It's also hard to imagine, if there was to be a raid at all, what conceivable timing would have changed your judgment. Before the speech? A month after? That being said, I have no doubt that Clinton hoped that draping himself with the presidential mantle would help him, whether or not that hope was a sufficient motivation. Are you saying that for the sake of even-handedness we should have fired missiles at Ireland? Of course, neither the Orange League nor the IRA have attacked US installations, as far as I can remember. At 07:13 PM 8/24/98 PDT, you wrote: >Kent is right of course. In this age of manufactured consent and >spectacular (literally) politics, the rapid demonization of Osama bin >Laden in the weeks prior to the bombings should have been a telling >signal that we were setting up a post-Hussein, post-Khomeini, >post-Kaddafi enemy to go after. He has an advantage in that involves >going to war with no state as such -- just the unilateral bombing of >"terrorist sites." > >None of this is to say that the bombings in Nairobi & Dar were not >utterly real & horrible, but anyone who has watched the Irish situation >for all these decades (or Vietnam or Algeria in the late 1950s) could >tell you that military offenses against terrorism basically NEVER work. >What makes bombing politically permissable and, say, the use of such >weaponry against various IRA irregulars "unacceptable" has everything to >do with the skin tone and religion of the recipients of our cruise >missile services. > >That some of the sites in Afghanistan that were targeted were built with >US money tells you something about the brilliance with which our foreign >policy has been conducted. > >And -- answer me this -- if the same group of people who could not tell >that India was about to detonate nuclear weapons were to tell you that >they had "irrefutable" (or even just "compelling") evidence as to the >guilt of the bin Laden organization, how inclined would you be to >believe them? > >I've noticed that the refutation of the idea that this was motivated by >domestic politics has been based almost entirely on the idea that the >plan was concocted 10 days in advance of the bombing, i.e., before the >Monica speech (debacle that it was). But, hey, everyone knew Clinton was >going to testify that Monday well in advance of that -- so that is one >explanation that doesn't hold a lot o' water. > >I'm afraid that all we have done is to ratchet up the cycle of violence >one more ugly twist. > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net >rsillima@hotmail.com > >Do NOT respond >to the Tottels@Hotmail address. >It is for listserv use only. > > >______________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 21:43:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: Poetry On-line, a request MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob, I am in the process of reving all of my sites but for now there are things at: http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/ http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/2562/ http://www.public.usit.net/trbell/ I also have amassed a collection of others' sites as I have started reviewing them for a journal. If you would like I'll make a copy for you. tom bell Bob Grotjohn wrote: > > I want my intro poetry students to explore on-line poetry mixing images > and words. I had been saving all list messages with addresses of such > sites, but when our computer people upgraded my machine, all the > messages disappeared. I will appreciate it if list members could take a > moment to send me addresses for their own sites or their favorite > other-poet's sites. I have looked through some stuff at the EPC web > site and now am asking for recommendations. I suppose back-channel > would keep the list from getting cluttered. Thanks in advance to those > who help me out. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:47:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: ahsbery review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >He reminds us that most poets who give us meaning don't know what >they're talking about. Great quote! I love Ashbery--always have, always will. And not because he excites me with his language (though I think he's masterful at what he does--sort of like Updike is) but because I find him so humorous. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:47:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodrigo Toscano Subject: Re: funny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Most people that I dealt with at work the other day --- from clients to fellow workers (I work as a social worker here in San Francisco) said something to this effect: "we bombed...we bombed seven sites..." ...now... how might that might be changed to (for starters) "The U.S. military bombed someone" Or "We bombed, what the hell is going on anyway?... Media seems to be reading the State Department's script again..." Or any similar (at this point/given where we're at -- revolutionary) leap...away from the (scheissekopf) "we bombed" -- is a rather daunting -- though already in-progress (historical) "to-do"... see you at (very near) the bottom of the hill... * B.Y.O.P (oems) * (The State's necessary mass right-populist base nothwithstanding) Rodrigo Toscano Kent Johnson wrote: "Funny, how in the past 48 plus hours since the U.S. techno state-terrorist action (sure to inflame spiralling violence that will claim thousands) there has been one single post about it (from Dan Bouchard, hurrah) and a poem by Alan Sondheim, hurrah) and many, many posts in quite rapid succession (more urgently forthcoming, no doubt) about Comedy. This on what is (who can contest it?) the largest single gathering of "oppositional" poets and critics in the history of U.S. poetry. (Isn't that really wonderful when you dare to think about it? And here you are!) I wonder if any Sudanese were reading Kenneth Koch when the cruises hit? Ha, Ha, isn't that fucking funny? Wag the Finger, Kent" ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 19:52:53 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: The Age of Experience Content-Type: text/plain Come on, Mark, What I'm saying is that things don't happen out of context and that history already has announced how this shit turns out. Badly. "I'm not sure, Ron, that you or Kent are wrong, "of course," not having a claim to your omniscience. I'm content to wait and see before coming to judgment.... It's also hard to imagine, if there was to be a raid at all, what conceivable timing would have changed your judgment... Are you saying that for the sake of even-handedness we should have fired missiles at Ireland? Of course, neither the Orange League nor the IRA have attacked US installations, as far as I can remember." Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com Do NOT respond to the Tottels@Hotmail address. It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 20:09:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: Comedy In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear List Folks, Thank you for all the suggestions on comic material, which were rich and thoughtful, and I hope more suggestions come in. Clearly, there is a lot of material out there which I had not been previously aware of. Certainly, the comic has become an increasingly complex presence in literature, poetry in particular. Consider Emily Dickinson or Anselm Hollo (as Ron S suggested) or Antler or. . . I believe there's room for a lot more theoretical consideration of what consitutes the comic and why it has become so prevalent and so important, particularly (but not exclusively) in poetry. Survival is at stake. Yes, to say someone is "humorless" has been used as an attack -- particularly on feminists and others who advocate change -- "Aw, can't you take a joke?" -- as part of the phony "political correctness" slander many like to bander about. However, it is important to joke and to laugh at ourselves -- and if anyone has to explain why perhaps it is not worth the attempt. As for this moment of bombs and (again) American aggression and blindness in the Middle East, those of us who are outraged at the US's arrogance had better laugh as well. I have spent 30 years acting and writing against US and Israeli policies in the Middle East -- and the latest outrage is just that: the latest. One of the funniest people I ever met was the late Tawfiq Zayyad. A wonderful poet, Tawfiq was the communist mayor (from a muslim background) of Jesus's hometown Nazareth and a member of the Israeli Knesset. I visited him once on a fact-finding tour with Gus Newport, former mayor of Berkeley, and as we ate and tossed off one arak after another he told us of how he had to vote in the knesset on the "Who is a Jew" question: here was the communist muslim from Jesusville voting as an Israeli citizen in the Israei parliament on whether or not someone could be deemed a Jew in order to have the right to dispossess his own people. An absurdity so magnificent, so delicious, that we all roared with laughter. Tawfiq loved to laugh -- and the fact that he was killed in typical Israeli fashion (a headon collision while driving back from Hebron after trying to negotiate one more inch of Israeli withdrawal) is simply one more bitter joke on the par of those in Emile Habibi's "The Pessoptimist" (who ended up winning the Israel Prize to the outrage of the rightwing). Now, with 75 percent of the American people approving the bombings and many of the rest probably confused (after all, the people who set the bombs in Africa are strangely twisted), anyone who counters the present whammy had better laugh. What happened is the result of years of US policies -- of backing the reactionary Saudi and Kuwaiti ruling families, of never putting serious pressure on Israel to stop its colonialist assault on the Palestinians, of undermining all forms of secular Arab nationalism so that the choice is either its empty shell (such as Saddam Hussein) or politicized Islam or defeat. . . I could go on. So, as was already said, laughter is serious business. Again, thanks for all the help. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 23:41:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: skateboarding into Bonnie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kent, More alarming even than the meteor that will destroy us (At Blockbuster Now! Guaranteed!) is Madeline Albright's explanation that we have entered the phase of the "war of the future" in which the imperial forces pursue an organization funded by renegade financiers exploding bombs in public places. Think she'd ever think the imperial forces are mainly renegade financiers? or that terrorism is not diplomacy? Problem for the day: If everybody's only bought off, how to buy them back without buying in (selling out). Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:08:59 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: funny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodrigo Toscano wrote: > > Most people that I dealt with at work the other day --- from clients to fellow > workers (I work as a social worker here in San Francisco) said something to > this effect: > > "we bombed...we bombed seven sites..." > > ...now... > > how might that might be changed to (for starters) > > "The U.S. military bombed someone" > > Or > > "We bombed, what the hell is going on anyway?... Media seems to be reading the > State Department's script again..." > > Or any similar (at this point/given where we're at -- revolutionary) > leap...away from the (scheissekopf) "we bombed" > > -- is a rather daunting -- though already in-progress (historical) "to-do"... > > see you at > (very near) > the bottom of the hill... > > * > > B.Y.O.P (oems) > > * > > (The State's necessary mass right-populist base nothwithstanding) > > Rodrigo Toscano > > Kent Johnson wrote: > > "Funny, how in the past 48 plus hours since the U.S. techno > state-terrorist action (sure to inflame spiralling violence that will > claim thousands) there has been one single post about it (from Dan > Bouchard, hurrah) and a poem by Alan Sondheim, hurrah) and many, many > posts in quite rapid succession (more urgently forthcoming, no doubt) > about Comedy. > > This on what is (who can contest it?) the largest single gathering of > "oppositional" poets and critics in the history of U.S. poetry. > (Isn't that really wonderful when you dare to think about it? And > here you are!) > > I wonder if any Sudanese were reading Kenneth Koch when the cruises > hit? > > Ha, Ha, isn't that fucking funny? > > Wag the Finger, and the news--the news--what (news) make it (news)? the stated obvious (obviate the obvious) and how yes, reading Koch? isn't very interesting to say--that we shold drop poetics and all become *aghast* at the obviated--but--without the stated aforementioned policy bomb--what do we WRITE about it? HUH? "a poem for peace is like a nutcracker for peace" --Oppen what then is DONE? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 00:09:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: terrorism like comedy is not pretty MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think we can all agree that any one can make a body laugh. not everone can make people cry. this made me cry at my desk today. with the mention of northern ireland on this list i thought i would share some facts to cool down the theorizing on violence. kevin THE VICTIMS - Avril Monaghan (30) and her 18-month-old daughter Maura, from Augher, Co. Tyrone. Avril was the mother of three other children under the age of six and was expecting twins within two months. Her mother Mary Grimes, nee Ahern (65), also died. She was a native of Kanturk, Co. Cork, who, with her Omagh-born husband, had lived in Beragh for the past 35 years. Maura and Avril Monaghan were the first of the victims to be buried. Dr Joseph Duffy, Bishop of Clogher, was the chief concelebrant at the Requiem Mass on Tuesday. Mrs Grimes, the mother of two girls and ten boys, was buried at Beragh on Wednesday. The chief concelebrant on this occasion was the Archbishop of Armagh Dr Sean Brady. - Oran Doherty (8), Sean McLaughlin (12) and James Barker (12) from Buncrana, Co. Donegal, had joined their Spanish friends on the day out to the Ulster-American Folk park. The Barker family came from England about a year ago in the expectation that they would find a better life in Ireland. Among the congregation at the funeral on Wednesday were President McAleese, the North's First Minister David Trimble, his deputy Seamus Mallon and Minister for Public Enterprise Mary O'Rourke. The Bishop of Derry Dr Seamus Hegarty had a special welcome for Mr Trimble, and the congregation broke into loud applause when Dr Hegarty wished him well in his endeavours in the new assembly. The Spanish victims of the tragedy were remembered throughout the ceremony. Oran Doherty apparently dreamed of the day when he would visit Glasgow to see his beloved Celtic. Instead his coffin was draped with an official Celtic flag and four members of the club, including Danish international Marc Reiper and youth coach Willie McStay, travelled to Buncrana for his funeral. - Fernando Blasco Baselga (12) and his tutor Rocio Abad Ramos (24), both from Madrid, were on a language exchange programme with families in Buncrana. They became the first people from outside these islands to die in the North in 30 years of violence. Fernando's father was injured in an ETA bombing in Madrid in 1993. Rocio was on her fifth trip to Buncrana and was the group leader. The remains of the two Spaniards arrived back in Spain in the early hours of Tuesday and thousands paid their respects before the funeral services later in the day. - Breda Devine (21 months), was from Donemana. Her mother Tracey, her uncle Gary McGillion and his fiancee, Donna Marie Keyes, are being treated for serious injuries in the Royal Victoria Hospital. Breda was buried from the church at Aughabrack where we had the poignant scene of her father Paul carrying her little white coffin. - Fred White (60) and his son Brian (27), of Omagh, were together when they died. Fred was an officer of the Ulster Unionist Party. Both were keen gardeners and Brian was due to start a new job as a horticulturist with Omagh Council on Monday. The family originally came from outside the town and the funeral cortege travelled the four miles to the little Presbyterian Church at Creevan with which the Whites maintained their association. The Moderator of the Presbyterian Church addressed the congregation and David Trimble managed to attend this funeral also. As with all the other funerals there wasn't room inside the church for all those who wished to attend and the majority of the mourners had to remain outside. - Esther Gibson (36), Beragh, was due to get married next year and was to be bridesmaid at her sister's wedding next month. A day earlier she and her fiance Kenneth Hawkes had a formal photograph taken to mark their engagement. Esther was a Sunday school teacher and the niece of DUP Assembly member Oliver Gibson. The Rev. Ian Paisley officiated at her funeral in the Free Presbyterian Church at Sixmilecross. - Julia Hughes (21), of Omagh, a student at Dundee University, was home on holiday for the summer and had found temporary work in the photographic shop in which she died. At her funeral on Thursday the President of Methodist Church broke down as he tried to offer words of comfort to her father Alec, whom he had met in his youth, "when faith was easy and life untroubled". - Adrian Gallagher (21), of Omagh, who had already established his own car body repair business, had gone into town with a friend to buy some clothes. His uncle Hugh Gallagher was shot dead by the IRA in 1984. Adrian, an only son, was buried from St Mary's Church, Knockmoyle. Local clergymen from the Church of Ireland and the Presbyterian church addressed the congregation, as did Auxiliary Bishop of Derry Francis Lagan. - Lorraine Wilson (15) and her friend Samantha McFarland (17), both from Omagh, worked together as volunteers in the Oxfam shop from which they were evacuated and sent off in the direction of the bomb. The Church of Ireland Bishop of Derry and Raphoe, Dr James Mehaffey, joined a local minister for a private service in the home which Lorraine shared with her parents, two sisters and a brother, before her remains were taken to Cappagh churchyard. Samantha was buried from Lislimnaghan Parish Church at Mountjoy on Thursday. Her brother addressed the congregation and spoke of her love of music and horses and her desire to travel. - Anne McCombe (48) and Geraldine Breslin (43), from Omagh, were also close friends, who it was noted were of different religions. They worked together in Watterson's shop and were on their break when the bomb exploded. On Thursday Anne McCombe's coffin was carried by her husband and two sons into Mountjoy Presbyterian Church where she had been a member of the choir. The Presbyterian Moderator, Dr John Dixon, told the congregation that when the church's General Assembly met in June those present thought they were heralding a new era in which there would be no more funerals arising from paramilitary violence. On the same day the remains of Anne's friend Geraldine Breslin were in St Joseph's Parish Hall near Omagh town centre where her funeral Mass was said by Fr John Forbes and Bishop of Derry Dr Seamus Hegarty. Fr Forbes had officiated at her marriage 18 years earlier. - Veda Short (56), of Gortaclare in Omagh, worked in the other branch of Watterson's from which she was evacuated. A mother of three and a grandmother, her funeral service was held in Seskinore Presbyterian Church, where her friend and former Minister at the church, the Rev Albin Rankin, described her as a person "who gave so much to so many". - Jolene Marlow (17), of Newtownsaville, worked in Omagh on Saturdays and had been offered a place to study physiotherapy at the University of Ulster. While she was having lunch with her sister Nickie (15), she was evacuated and, like others, they walked towards the seat of the explosion. Before the blast they had met their great aunt Rosie McNelis (78). Both Nickie and Rosie are being treated for serious injuries in the Royal Victoria Hospital. Jolene's A-level results were due out on the day after she was buried in St Patrick's Cemetery in Eskra. The road to the church was lined by her team mates from the local camogie and football teams. - Deborah Cartwright (20), from Omagh, was the daughter of an RUC officer and worked in a local beauty salon. Had she lived a few days longer she would have learned that she had earned the required A-level results to take up her place to study at Manchester Metropolitan University. The media respected the family's request to stay away from the funeral at St Columba's Parish Church. - Elizabeth "Libby" Rush (57), of Omagh, was in her town centre shop when she was killed. Speaking of his loss, her husband Laurence said that they had met at the age of 15, were married at 18 and had been happily married for almost 40 years. At the funeral Mass Fr Michael Keaveney said that the bombing had brought to Omagh "the kind of fame we neither sought nor deserved", whereas "Libby represented what is finest in Omagh. She was caring, warm and friendly". - Alan Radford (16), was a pupil at Omagh High School and waiting on the results of his GCSE exams. He was in town with his mother but left her briefly when the explosion took place. Marion Radford later spoke with great dignity and no malice about her experience and the loss of her son. Alan was buried after a Mormon service in the family home. - Olive Hawkes (60), of Omagh, was killed instantly in the blast. The media was asked to stay away from her funeral, which began with a short service at the family home before the actual funeral ceremony in the small Methodist church at Mayne. Mrs Hawkes is survived by her husband Percy, son Mark and daughter Mandy. - Brian McCrory (45) was a crane driver and had simply gone into town to collect some pills from a chemist. He was one of the last of the victims to be identified and is survived by his wife, two sons and a daughter. At his funeral in Killyclogher it was estimated that there were twice as many mourners left outside the church in the rain as were able to get inside. - Brenda Logue (17), from Loughmacrory, had travelled the nine miles to Omagh with her mother and grandmother for a shopping trip. All three were in a shop on Market Street but Brenda went outside to see what was causing the commotion, just as the bomb exploded. Brenda played in goal for her local Gaelic football team and for the Tyrone minor team. Her friends from sport and school formed a guard of honour for her funeral at St Mary's Chapel beside her home in Loughmacrory. - Gareth Conway (18), Carrickmore, had gone into Omagh to collect a pair of contact lens. Like others among the young victims he was awaiting the results of his A-levels and was looking forward to starting an engineering course at Magee College in Derry. A keen Gaelic footballer, his funeral at St Colm Cille's Church was attended by members of his club, Tattyreagh, and a eulogy was delivered by club manager Niall Darcy. While it was local curate Fr Sean Hegarty who spoke of Gareth during the funeral Mass, also on the altar was Monsignor Denis Faul, who had taken up his duties as Parish Priest of Carrickmore on day of the bombing. - Philomena Skelton (39), of Drumquin, was on one of her rare visits to the town with her husband Kevin, a well known GAA referee, and their three daughters. They were buying school uniforms and one daughter was also injured. When the bomb exploded Mr Skelton was in the shop next door, only feet from his wife, but escaped physical injury. Shauna (13), whose jaw was broken, was allowed out of hospital to attend her mother's funeral at St Patrick's Church, Drumquin. WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE? Everyone assumed that the bomb was the work of the "Real IRA" and on Tuesday evening the dissident group claimed responsibility. In its statement it insisted that no one was meant to die and that the target was commercial. It went on to say that the telephone warnings (two to UTV and one to the Samaritans) clearly stated that the bomb was 300 to 400 yards from the Court House. No one was impressed and the statement created further anger and disgust. UTV responded by saying that the messages it had received placed the bomb at or near the courthouse. Six hours after that statement another was issued saying that it had suspended its campaign of violence. A discussion was to take place to ascertain if members wanted to make this permanent. Some observers said that the second statement came as a result of some very explicit threats from the IRA. For some time now we have been led to believe that "Real IRA" is the military wing of the 32-County Sovereignty Committee. That suddenly became very important as we did not know the identity of anyone in the "Real IRA" but we were aware of some of the leaders of the 32-County Sovereignty Committee. We had also been led to believe that the leader of the "Real IRA" was a former IRA quartermaster living in Dundalk. It did not take us long to realise that the media was referring to Michael McDevitt, the partner of Bernadette Sands-McKevitt who helped to found the 32-County Sovereignty Committee. The pair were under the spotlight for much of the week. Without naming them, callers to Joe Duffy's Liveline radio programme started to organise a rally outside their home in Blackrock, a few miles south of Dundalk. In the event those attending the rally confined themselves to staging their protest in a local car park. The names of the couple eventually became widely known. At some stage Ms Sands-McKevitt phoned a local priest to say that they had nothing to do with the Omagh bomb. According to Fr Desmond Campbell she was very upset and within an minute or so Mr McKevitt took over the phone. He insisted that he played no act or part in the bombing and the first he heard about it was on the television. The couple own a business in the Long Walk shopping centre in Dundalk and calls were made for a boycott. This seemed to be fairly effective but didn't satisfy many, including the other shop owners, who wanted them out of the shopping centre. Management obliged and Ms Sands-McKevitt wasn't allowed to enter the premises on Friday. On Wednesday Ms Sands-McKevitt was interviewed by Joe Duffy and she reiterated that she knew nothing of the Omagh bombing and insisted that there were no links between the "Real IRA" and her organisation. During the interview she used the word "condemn" in relation to the Omagh bombing. The strategy of the 32-County Sovereignty Committee, she said, was to use the United Nations to challenge Britain's right to remain in the North. Before the week was out the United States said that she would not be issued with a visa in respect of a planned trip next month. The couple have threatened to take legal action against some sections of the media and are being advised by their solicitors with regard to their apparent eviction from the premises in the shopping centre. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:34:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Funny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" funny how commentators and columnists and consultants resist hysteria, que marrant sometimes i know just one more report of deaths and i'll giggle giggle my brains out my nose go on giggling until i must be sedated or die will they say in my eulogy, "i remember his bloodcurdling giggle his death defying snorts." this overdose it says on the headstone brought to you by the CBC maybe the national, the creepy white smile of mike duffy scanning the script for the carnage billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:34:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Billy Little Subject: Re: Funny Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" yes, sitting in the taco bell in the underground shopping mall in cartomb they're reading kenneth koch aloud by candlelight because they don't want to hate americans their grandchildren are americans billy little 4 song st. nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! Are they unhappy, by the way? Alice James ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 01:21:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: The Age of Experience In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980824193707.0093aaa0@mail.earthlink.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" What happened was that President Clinton said "You want to see stains on dresses? I'll show you stains on dresses!" George Bowering. , 2499 West 37th Ave., Vancouver, B.C., Canada V6M 1P4 fax: 1-604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:37:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: query If anyone has an email address for an editor connected with the mag LVNG (Joel Felix or others), I'd be grateful for it backchannel - thanks - Henry Gould Henry_Gould@brown.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:01:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: Re: Ashbery Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" it seems to me that it has been open season on ashbery's work in last few years. In two profiles i've done w/ poets, both told me they thought he was boring and would be forgotten in the dustbin of history. i also notice that old pallies of ja sorta badmouth and say he ain't what he was back in the day. do people get overwhelmed by the production? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:31:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fred Muratori Subject: Re: Ashbery Review In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joel Lewis wrote: >it seems to me that it has been open season on ashbery's work in last few >years. In two profiles i've done w/ poets, both told me they thought he was >boring and would be forgotten in the dustbin of history. > >i also notice that old pallies of ja sorta badmouth and say he ain't what >he was back in the day. > >do people get overwhelmed by the production? Not sure overwhelmed is the word, but it seems that contemporary poets who produce "too much" are regarded with some suspicion. Poems, in the Romantic light we've grown accustomed to, are supposed to be produced sparingly, the results of divine inspiration coupled with agonizingly disciplined (if often intuitive) procedural methods. If writing poems looks too easy -- as Logan says with regard to Ashbery -- then we wonder if the poet is just soullessly phoning them in. Ashbery's not alone in being criticized for high output; Ammons is another (three hefty volumes in 6 years, two of them book-length serial poems), and Albert Goldbarth has been taking flak for being prolific for 20+ years. Productive poets also suffer criticism (and I think justifiably so) for their reluctance to break stride, to move out of whatever mode brought them to prominence. Philip Levine's been writing the same 2-3 damned poems on the same 2-3 themes in the same way for 30 years, but as long as he doesn't produce a book every other year, nobody complains. Yeats was prolific, but at least he was willing to alter his style to suit the changes in his own personal development. Too much of a good thing is okay; too much of the same thing is deadly. -- Fred M. ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1@cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 09:25:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sean Casey Subject: Re: Ashbery Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii it seems to me that it has been open season on ashbery's work in last few years. In two profiles i've done w/ poets, both told me they thought he was boring and would be forgotten in the dustbin of history. i also notice that old pallies of ja sorta badmouth and say he ain't what he was back in the day. do people get overwhelmed by the production? ---------------------------------- Joel, I think production has something to do with it. While prolific poets often write poems "like they were making pasta," oftentimes the more serious offense is inciting the jealousy of fellow poets. There was an article in the Washington Post magazine (I think) last fall about the poet Lyn Lifshin, who flooded small magazines for decades. While she isn't an amazing poet, when the reporter asked her detractors to comment, many said nothing of the content of her work, just: "Too many poems!" Lucky for her, John Martin at Black Sparrow thinks otherwise. Sean ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:08:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Hatlen Organization: University of Maine Subject: aliens MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit A few days ago I downloaded a poem on the list beginning "and the aliens, where are they, in our desperation," but I don't have the name of the author, and have since erased that day's postings. Can anyone tell me who wrote the poem? Backchannel to Burt Hatlen at Hatlen@Maine.Maine.Edu. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:32:21 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Magdalena Zurawski Subject: Thanks for Klingon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Thanks to everyone for sending me the names of klingon poets. Christian Bok was the one I was looking for. I made the deadline too. Maggie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:40:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Rich inner lives and the State In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980824183720.007dd750@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just a comment to Mark Weiss... I thought of back-chan'ing, as this kind of thing can get pretty drawn out, and certainly ain't poetics. But i guess it is important to make it a public issue. Mark's point that the two bombs set off in Africa, were ghastly and criminal, i have no argument with... But the US missles *also* killed innocent noncombatants with rich inner lives...And the military role of the US in the world, and what it's there for (to oppose democracy, reinforce big money, carry out terror and destabilization, use pentagon symbolism to strengthen far-right social agendas at home) make it pretty inevitable that there will continue to be lots of deaths of people with rich inner lives... mark "noam" prejsnar ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:11:50 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: Re: not-so-funny In-Reply-To: <199808250218.WAA17616@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Michael, maybe the experience of watching it wasn't funny but the idea and image that I'm left with from your message (as someone who did not actually see it) is *very* funny! Don >From: Michael Magee >Subject: not-so-funny >I just saw, compliments of VH1, Cher and the Osman brothers singing a >medley of Stevie Wonder songs dressed in in American flag outfits. Now, >that is *not* funny! -m. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:24:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: news that don't stay news isn't really news Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TERROR IN FREEDOM=92S LAND: A HUMAN INTEREST (AMERICAN INTEREST) STORY "Heightened security in Washington signals rising US wariness of terror"=20 (or, Steer the Panicked Crowd This Way=85)=20 "By Louise D. Palmer, Globe Correspondent, 08/25/98"=20 (modified by Daniel Bouchard, on BuffListChat, 8/25/98) WASHINGTON - Security measures have tightened so considerably in the nation=92s capital that tourists and area residents are taking the threat of= a terrorist attack seriously in a way they never have before. At the Washington Monument, where concrete barriers, more police, and a new security checkpoint were added this weekend, Kenny Horseman admitted he felt afraid, especially when his 10-year-old daughter Abby asked if she was going to be killed.=20 [Ed. Obs.: The concrete barriers look real nice. They are the true monuments to the American Century. I visited DC right after the Embassy bombings. From Lafayette Park, Douglas Rothschild and I had a clear view of the Secret Service snipers watching the crowd from the White House roof. It had vista.] "We had to convince her she would be OK,=92=92 said Horseman, a registered= nurse from Herlock, Md. "It makes you wonder if they are going to get us, and it makes you worry.=92=92=20 Who they are is who they always were. All we know for sure is they are them. And the other they is constantly informing us as to what them are doing, usually right before we attack them. Right now, apparently, they are stalking little Abby. But despite the Wonder-Worry phenomena now gripping America, it is important to stress for the sake of the children that each attack launched by the US military poses a threat to the safety of America= =92s Kids, even as it protects them. Through this process, the truth will set us free.=20 "I was scared we=92d be bombed,=92=92 said Abby, with an embarrassed shrug. Embarrassed as a blend of orwellianisms, half-truths, and propaganda spit themselves out into pre-fab Axioms of Freedom so that in the event of another attack on Americans, we can all agree that we did not do enough the first time to prevent it this time around and can indeed step up the Retaliatory Defense Attacks with suffficient moral justification.=20 Since last week=92s US missile attack on an alleged terrorist network (heinously disguised as a pharmaceutical manufacturing plant) in Afghanistan and Sudan, which followed twin bombings on Aug. 7 at US embassies in Africa, fear for basic personal safety is creeping into the psyche of some visitors, who have long taken America=92s geographic isolation as a guarantee of security. The psyche of some visitors has resisted this fear for years. Now, egg on face, they are coming around to What=92s Right.=20 From Union Station and the National Museum of American History to the Capitol building, more police, more barriers, and more gates were added as protective measures. Every good American will be armed for protective measures; Arabs and outspoken dissidents will be treated with suspicion and/or jailed as the "war" intensifies. Poets and artists will be lauded as they ask their noisy counterparts to keep it down. =20 Even before the embassy bombings, Osama bin Laden, the wealthy Saudi believed to be the mastermind behind those attacks, had announced: "We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians; they are all targets in this fatwa.=92=92 On the other hand, the United States has said it does differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians except, of course, in the event of actual bombings for which all pose of responsibility is discarded. (Besides, who can tell?)=20 =20 And people, who last week had no idea what "fatwa,=92=92 a death edict,= meant, now appear to be paying attention. Buy two "fatwas" before Labor Day, and get a third "fatwa" half-price. "Things feel out of control, but you can=92t live in constant fear,=92=92= said Ream Hasan, a mother and part-time teacher in Fairfax, Va., touring the Washington Monument. "These people want to stifle your sense of security, but if you let them, they=92ve won.=92=92 Whether Ms. Hasan was referring to= the so-called terrorists of Islamic persuasion, or the not-so-called terrorists of the US military was unclear.=20 Another tourist, Mike Cahoon, a roofer from Manchester, N.H., said, "I=92m thinking retaliation. Hit and you get hit back. It could be anybody anytime. It could be somebody walks by you and boom.=92=92 Mr. Cahoon was then= introduced to Ms. Hasan whom it was hoped would offer tutoring services for grammar and clarity. Mr. Cahoon, however, refused, claiming to be an avid reader of Gertrude Stein.=20 Cahoon said he doubted terrorists would reach into his corner of New England. "What are they going to do, blow up the granite?=92=92 As an armed American however, Cahoon vowed that no nutty Arabs would usurp his right to live free or die.=20 Yaz Jadallah, a physician visiting from Lansing, Mich., simply said: "I=92m not afraid, just more aware.=92=92 He was carrying several Nutcrackers for= Peace.=20 Rona Fields, a Washington-area psychologist and author of several books on terrorist organizations, who has studied violent groups such as the Khmer Rouge, said a slow psychological transformation is under way in this country. "Unlike some of the previous fear syndromes that have circulated through the populace, this is based in reality,=92=92 said Fields. For a= point of reference she cited the age-old (and ongoing) threat of nuclear annihilation, commonly known now as mass neurosis, with no basis in= "reality."=20 "We=92re not talking about a neurotic anxiety, but a response to warnings= and the need to mobilize security.=92=92 Whether the advocacy of "the need to mobilize security" is popular among professional psychologists remains unclear, as does the meaning of the phrase. Fields suggested speeding up the "psychological transformation" toward fear by teaching it in schools, for starters, to little Abby and her playmates.=20 Fields added: "These are people who see men, women, and children as symbolic targets to be snuffed out." Whether Dr. Fields was referring to the so-called terrorists of Islamic persuasion, or the not-so-called terrorists of the US military was unclear.=20 Several experts said education and preparation are needed. Several had their ears to the ground. Several expressed desire for the Colonel=92s secret= recipe.=20 "If you give people an expectation that there will be reprisals and you heighten awareness, then there won=92t be a shock when something occurs, and that minimizes fear,=92=92 said a government behavioral scientist, who asked= not to be identified.=20 Or: when death comes for the vigilant, the vigilant have one leg up on the others.=20 This story ran on page A01 of the Boston Globe on 08/25/98. *=20 =A9 Copyright 1998 Globe Newspaper Company. Any alleged allegations remaining unsubstantiated or even false are protected under the alleged Myth of Objectivity, chap. XI.=20 <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard =09 The MIT Press Journals =09 Five Cambridge Center =09 Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:25:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Overproducing Ashbery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I am one of those people who buy every Ashbery book that comes out--along with everything by Bronk. I remember thinking at a certain point that all he was doing was writing more "Ashberyese"--this was about 10 years ago maybe. This remains a valid criticism, but where is the harm, ultimately? All poets need a certain rhythm of writing to be who they are. Coolidge is another example--if he didn't write so much he wouldn't be Coolidge. And I don't think it is all redundant. Sometimes less is more but sometimes more is more than less. The next Ornette Coleman record probably won't have much that I haven't heard before, but I'll still listen to that too. I've heard Ashbery writes many more poems than he publishes; can anyone confirm this? This adds another wrinkle. As for Ammons, his work does not hold my attention in the first place, so I can't say whether his case is analogous to that of JA. Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:03:10 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Cheezem Subject: Re: The Age of Experience In-Reply-To: <19980825021324.19838.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The only place I get a good sense of how the bombing affected folks in the Arab world is The Christian Science Monitor. Their coverage has been great, asking good, touch questions. They took a pretty good, internationalist look at the Gulf War too. In a way, the Monica thing was a great reverse pr move. The spinners took a defensive offensive move, raising the wag the dog questions before anyone else could raise those questions themselves, and diverting attention from the merits or lack of the bombings. Maybe they planned the Monica thing to coincide with the bombing, instead of the other way around. Just kidding, I think. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 24 Aug 1998 22:57:59 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: in case ewe wur wundering MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit my harddrive died on july 26 & Ive just gotten back on line now. nothing internet wise was backed up & I have lost all email addresses, letters folks have written me & all bookmarks. if youve been trying to get ahold of me, & am reconfigured in the cyberrealm.... the moral is backing up is a good thing backing up is a good thing backing up is a good thing backing up is a good thing backing up is a good thing .... miekal ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 08:59:34 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Quartermain's Andrews / N'awlins Content-Type: text/plain Two things, with no visible correlation: I want to call attention to Peter Quartermain's wonderful piece on Bruce Andrews' work (esp. _Lip Service_) in the current issue of _Witz._ It's the best piece I've read on Bruce's work and makes me hungry for the forthcoming _Aerial_ on Mr. A. I will be in New Orleans, at the New Orleans Marriott on Canal Street, from Wednesday PM until Saturday morning (8/26 to 8/29). If there are any Listafarians down that aways, give me a buzz. Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com Do NOT respond to the Tottels@Hotmail address. It is for listservs only. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:26:38 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodrigo Toscano Subject: Re: Todd B's "funny" post Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Todd B. wrote: "and the news--the news--what (news) make it (news)? the stated obvious (obviate the obvious) and how yes, reading Koch? isn't very interesting to say--that we shold drop poetics and all become *aghast* at the obviated--but--without the stated aforementioned policy bomb--what do we WRITE about it? HUH? "a poem for peace is like a nutcracker for peace" --Oppen what then is DONE?" Dear Todd (list), :) this post, after promising myself to join other kinds of threads, abstaining from any further jesuistry...eagerly jumping into the hot tub with a cocktail...and join in the banter about american poetics...rather loosely...open to whatever happens..... :( I'm not sure how you arrived at "that we should all drop poetics" ...and be (simply?)*aghast*(mono-affect) at it all....derived from my post, or Kent's? If such events are inducing one to "drop" one's poetics, then what "poetics" are those?... that can't withstand or incorporate the complex dynamics of such, indeed, horrible series of events and worsening consequences...and what's driving it ... (understand this is a friendly inquiry to your inquiry...) I mean, why has this (does this) come up in this way...here on this list...where "aboutness" -- by so many, including youself, has been explored/decoded/transformed...leading to often more thoroughgoing ways of looking at the intersection of changing political realities and its changing language-scapes... I don't see it as a "what to do"...but rather, "what is being done (already, collectively)" to oppose that rubbish... and however -- directly, obliquely, prismatically, abstractedly, what-have-you -ly) careen oneself alongside that "being done" (already).... To kick in, or not kick in, that is the question...... (or ruse really, since one does already...) and yes T, -- "the news", in the way that you're saying, the good (less cut) shit -- for "what we will", will come...is coming...and poets are well-diposed to deal it out... RT ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:47:48 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: sponse is a key word MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rodrigo Toscano wrote: > > Todd B. wrote: > > "and the news--the news--what (news) make it (news)? the stated obvious > (obviate the obvious) and how yes, reading Koch? isn't very interesting > to say--that we shold drop poetics and all become *aghast* at the > obviated--but--without the stated aforementioned policy bomb--what do we > WRITE about it? HUH? > > "a poem for peace is like a nutcracker for peace" > > --Oppen > > what then > is DONE?" > > Dear Todd (list), > > :) this post, after promising myself to join other kinds of threads, > abstaining from any further jesuistry...eagerly jumping into the hot tub with > a cocktail...and join in the banter about american poetics...rather > loosely...open to whatever happens..... :( > > I'm not sure how you arrived at "that we should all drop poetics" ...and be > (simply?)*aghast*(mono-affect) at it all....derived from my post, or Kent's? > > If such events are inducing one to "drop" one's poetics, then what "poetics" > are those?... that can't withstand or incorporate the complex dynamics of > such, indeed, horrible series of events and worsening consequences...and > what's driving it ... > > (understand this is a friendly inquiry to your inquiry...) > > I mean, why has this (does this) come up in this way...here on this > list...where "aboutness" -- by so many, including youself, has been > explored/decoded/transformed...leading to often more thoroughgoing ways of > looking at the intersection of changing political realities and its changing > language-scapes... > > I don't see it as a "what to do"...but rather, "what is being done (already, > collectively)" > to oppose that rubbish... > > and however -- directly, obliquely, prismatically, abstractedly, what-have-you > -ly) > > careen oneself alongside that "being done" (already).... > > To kick in, or not kick in, that is the question...... > > (or ruse really, since one does already...) > > and yes T, -- "the news", in the way that you're saying, the good (less cut) > shit -- for "what we will", will come...is coming...and poets are well-diposed > to deal it out... > > RT dear rt: My response was a calling really for a poetcis of response...seemingly too often an ISSue is brought up without a cor.re.lative to the written . As poets I'd think we should keep all/both on burners. If we discuss a political issue as surely and simply a political issue (this or that "thing") than indeed I believe the question--now what do we do--is surely an important one. My Oppen quote had to do with the fact that rather than write a poetics of politics Oppen (as many--inculding you and Noah D. Lissovoy and many others) actually became involved in political movements (which drove him from the US and writing for some time). I'm not sure about how a poem affects the world just yet--even after writing for 25 years--a world that needs affecting in areas of the deepest political strivings. And thus--I really wanted to ask--WHat, now, my love? So--you saying that poets are well "dipsoed" to deal it out-- I wonder what that really means? Say, to someone who doesn't read... TB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:11:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: re : comic writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dont leave out early S.J.Perelman, i.e. _Dawn Ginsberg's Revenge_ and _Crazy Like a Fox_ . Nor his contemporary, Nathaniel West, an early "black-humorist". Dont neglect Stephen Leacock's _Sunshine Sketches of a Little Town_ (Or are Canadians allowed...I've forgotten the couching of the original request). If they are, try _Debbie : An Epic_ , by Lisa Robertson. This work (as many might) challenges the category of "comedy" or as I prefer for these purposes, "comic writing," in that much of it is comic from one angle only, and some of it, from none. Yet it is richly funny. As is the writing of the other Perelman, Bob, and Listafarians (thanks, Ron) might consult his early, less read (I suppose) books, e.g. _Seven Works_ and _aka_ . Michael Davidson's complex poetry is always liable to become hilarious . . . don't miss his "Surfers' Chorus" (from which tome, anyone?). Randolph Healy is one of the funniest poets alive, and demonstrates that nothing can be funny that has not first been deadly serious. Excuse the partiality of this list, List, but the topic is so broad & inviting. David ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 10:26:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Don Cheney Subject: re : comic writing In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" david, it's The landing of Rochambeau, isn't it? and isn't it "et in leucadia ego"? (i don't have the book within reach) my own list of funny would include Michael along with other part-time sandiegans: Lydia Davis, Ron Silliman and Bill Luoma. don > Michael Davidson's complex poetry is always liable to become >hilarious . . . don't miss his "Surfers' Chorus" (from which tome, >anyone?). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 11:11:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Rich inner lives and the State In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" All of which is true, but not inevitably relevant, despite, say, Ron's claims for what "history has announced" (a pathetic fallacy in more senses than one). I'm claiming space as something of an agnostic on these matters. I'm also claiming that the US military and the govt behind it is sometimes as sloppy in its intent and execution as all of our other institutions. So, in Haiti, for instance, as a byproduct of US desire for stability in its own backyard it helped install a less murderous regime. I was profoundly opposed to our Iraq war, certainly couldn't understand the urgency, and I think a lot of the pre-war propaganda blitz about Saddam's production of "weapons of mass destruction" was generated as an excuse for burying soldiers alive. Amnd the sanctions continue the killing. But then it turns out, I think as as much a surprise to the CIA as to the rest of us, that Saddam was much closer to making such weapons operational than even the propaganda fantasists had told us. He had only arrived at that point by virtue of being our boy on the block for a lot of years: we paid the bills, but the boy had his own agenda. I don't think that this justified all that killing, but I don't have any solutions to propose, either. It's a complex world, and linear political theories may not cover all the phenomena. The question remains, I think, given where we are at the moment, what's to be done? Perhaps the missile attacks will have no positive impact, although as to increasing the ire of the bombers, it's hard to imagine they will inspire them with a will to violence that they didn't already possess. Perhaps the only thing that would work would be for the whole world to share the same level of prosperity and power. Great, but not likely to answer the immediate threat. Nor has prosperity stopped people from throwing things at each other in the past. History, when he was my teacher, told me that. So, if overt action won't work is there something else that might? I do think that this discussion belongs backchannel, and I'll be happy to continue it there. At 10:40 AM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote: >Just a comment to Mark Weiss... > >I thought of back-chan'ing, as this kind of thing can get pretty drawn >out, and certainly ain't poetics. But i guess it is important to make it >a public issue. > >Mark's point that the two bombs set off in Africa, were ghastly and >criminal, i have no argument with... > >But the US missles *also* killed innocent noncombatants with rich inner >lives...And the military role of the US in the world, and what it's there >for (to oppose democracy, reinforce big money, carry out terror and >destabilization, use pentagon symbolism to strengthen far-right social >agendas at home) make it pretty inevitable that there will continue to be >lots of deaths of people with rich inner lives... > >mark "noam" prejsnar > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:46:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: bombs away Into the wide open spaces of poetics, where there is no metrics, only a vague relief that it no longer matters, where there is no syntax, only the feeling it's a serious textbook sort of word, where there is so much talk about something which has no definition, no boundaries, no music or meaning, finally, except the echo of some kind of resistance to something, some time ago - a free-floating sort of innovative experimenting, or something - was it about words? Did it stand for something? - Jack "Ashbuggy" Spandrift [Jack Spandrift was arrested in Angola Louisiana for attempted escape from Angola State Prison there last Friday. He was found having a Jim Beam in Lou Jenkin's Spa 14 miles down the road; while being dragged back to the wagon he was heard shouting "stop the terrorism! War is illegal!", and when confronted by the warden he claimed he had skipped out in order to go to Washington & "give Bill Clinton a piece of his mind" [his words]. The FBI & Secret Service have been alerted, and Spandrift is not expected to be paroled anytime soon (he was doing 5 years anyway for attempting to foist himself off as a "poet" in New York and San Francisco by reciting verse by little-known Canadian Mountie authors at the top of his lungs in c&w bars... sheesh...) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:17:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: Hurricane Bonnie ordered Clinton killed Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A HURRICANE IS LITERATURE THAT STAYS A HURRICANE NAGS HEAD, N.C. - More than a quarter of a million residents and visitors were ordered to leave North Carolina's low-lying, exposed Outer Banks today as Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) accelerated on a path that could carry its fury into the barrier island chain. The National Weather Service said Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter)'s center with its 115 mph wind could be near the Outer Banks by late Wednesday morning. Terrorist warnings were posted from Murrells Inlet, S.C., to the North Carolina-Virginia state line. Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) watches extended south to Savannah, Ga., and north to Cape Henlopen, Del. While the Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) was still hundreds of miles away, the Atlantic was showing its effects with 10-foot waves reported on the North Carolina beach. Gray, white-capped waves hit the New Jersey shore in breakers 4 feet to 6 feet high, pounding onto the sand with a dull roar. Margaret Boone wasn't surprised that her vacation to the Outer Banks with six friends was ending today rather than Saturday. ''I just knew we was going to get run home,'' said Boone, of Thurmont, Md. The state of Virginia and some coastal communities elsewhere had already banned swimming because of Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) who is blamed for three drownings over the weekend in South Carolina, North Carolina and Delaware. ''People were getting sucked out left and right,'' said Margate Beach, N.J., lifeguard Mike Palmer. One man was missing Monday in the surf off Point Pleasant Beach. By midmorning today, the Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) was centered about 340 miles south of Cape Hatteras, which sits on the Outer Banks 50 miles south of Nags Head. Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter)'s outer ring of clouds was not even reaching the mainland yet by late morning as Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) moved toward the north-northwest. In three hours, Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter)'s forward motion increased from 11 mph to about 16 mph, and it was expected to turn gradually toward the north tonight, the weather service said. Evacuation orders were posted today for the Outer Banks sections of Dare and Currituck counties, the island of Ocracoke and beach communities along the state's southern coast near Wilmington. Residents and tourists were urged to head for the mainland immediately. Ocracoke is accessible only by ferry. Although the Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) warning covered part of South Carolina, Gov. David Beasley said today there was no reason yet to evacuate any of that state's coast. People on the Outer Banks were urged to head for the mainland immediately. But as dawn broke with a blue sky, runners took their morning jog on the beach road and golfers kept their tee times. Paul Peck, a retiree from Charlottesville, Va., said he'd never experienced a Saudi millionaire Osama bin Laden (the alleged plotter) and wanted to watch the ocean change. <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard The MIT Press Journals Five Cambridge Center Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:44:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Rich inner lives and the State In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980825111131.00938cd0@mail.earthlink.net> from "Mark Weiss" at Aug 25, 98 11:11:31 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm in basic agreement with Mark on this and, while I appreciate his offer to back channel the whole thing, I do think that the framing of this political issue going on on this list is of relevance at least to a discussion of rhetoric if not poetics proper. I see 2 problems with the rhetroic of conspiracy in regard to these bombings and the events surrounding them. 1) the conspracy theorist always inadvertantly apotheosizes the alledged conspirator: thus the Pentagon becomes all-powerful and unknowable agent rather than what it actually is: a bunch of mostly stupid people with mostly stupid views and too much power. The difference between a high Pentagon official and the right wing asshole who manages your local Sears is mostly a difference in weaponry and scale: which is to say, the sad truth of this bombing is that it probably transpired on the basis of two related thoughts in the collective brains of these numbskulls: a) "I like guns" and b) "those guys just bombed our embassy, let's go kick ass." We have a better chance of changing political culture if we recognize this than if we assume the Pentagon is run by a bunch of sorcerers bent on world domination. 2) a conspiratorial view of events robs us of the one tool we as writers actually have which is valuable, namely, the power of description. I don't simply mean that we should describe the events "actually" - I mean we should do our best both to meticulously describe those events (the radical journalist's duty) *as well as* describe the rhetoric via which those events were allowed by the culture to proceed and stand (the poet's). When we say, this is just another example of American hegemonic strong-arming, we actually say nothng at all: we are just the flipside of what gets said in Newsweek. This is why I appreciate the questions Mark raises: what actually happened and what might an appropriate response have been and how might that reponse have led to better results (long term or short term). bin Laden is surely not a "victim" - anymore than the united states is a "victim" of his bombing: to say so is to be wholly inaacurate it seems to me, & to provide no foundation for progressive action, only confirmation of one's beliefs. In this way, the conspiracy theorist is a deeply religious person, and the pure villain and pure victim appear in the service of a fundamentally theological framework. But the world of power politics is a *social* world, a world of *complicity*. And I think the best solutions to this cycle of "terrorism" and retaliation probably come after this admission. -m. According to Mark Weiss: > > All of which is true, but not inevitably relevant, despite, say, Ron's > claims for what "history has announced" (a pathetic fallacy in more senses > than one). I'm claiming space as something of an agnostic on these matters. > I'm also claiming that the US military and the govt behind it is sometimes > as sloppy in its intent and execution as all of our other institutions. So, > in Haiti, for instance, as a byproduct of US desire for stability in its > own backyard it helped install a less murderous regime. > I was profoundly opposed to our Iraq war, certainly couldn't understand the > urgency, and I think a lot of the pre-war propaganda blitz about Saddam's > production of "weapons of mass destruction" was generated as an excuse for > burying soldiers alive. Amnd the sanctions continue the killing. But then > it turns out, I think as as much a surprise to the CIA as to the rest of > us, that Saddam was much closer to making such weapons operational than > even the propaganda fantasists had told us. He had only arrived at that > point by virtue of being our boy on the block for a lot of years: we paid > the bills, but the boy had his own agenda. I don't think that this > justified all that killing, but I don't have any solutions to propose, > either. It's a complex world, and linear political theories may not cover > all the phenomena. > The question remains, I think, given where we are at the moment, what's to > be done? Perhaps the missile attacks will have no positive impact, although > as to increasing the ire of the bombers, it's hard to imagine they will > inspire them with a will to violence that they didn't already possess. > Perhaps the only thing that would work would be for the whole world to > share the same level of prosperity and power. Great, but not likely to > answer the immediate threat. Nor has prosperity stopped people from > throwing things at each other in the past. History, when he was my teacher, > told me that. So, if overt action won't work is there something else that > might? > > I do think that this discussion belongs backchannel, and I'll be happy to > continue it there. > > At 10:40 AM 8/25/98 -0400, you wrote: > >Just a comment to Mark Weiss... > > > >I thought of back-chan'ing, as this kind of thing can get pretty drawn > >out, and certainly ain't poetics. But i guess it is important to make it > >a public issue. > > > >Mark's point that the two bombs set off in Africa, were ghastly and > >criminal, i have no argument with... > > > >But the US missles *also* killed innocent noncombatants with rich inner > >lives...And the military role of the US in the world, and what it's there > >for (to oppose democracy, reinforce big money, carry out terror and > >destabilization, use pentagon symbolism to strengthen far-right social > >agendas at home) make it pretty inevitable that there will continue to be > >lots of deaths of people with rich inner lives... > > > >mark "noam" prejsnar > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 12:17:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: help! I need someone's address! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Anyone have an email address for Hugh Nicoll? Hugh, if you're lurking, please backchannel. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:31:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: acknowledged armchair editors of world Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Repainted from:FLASHPOINTSELSEWHERETheotherUSforeign-policyhurdlesByAaronZitner,Globe staff,08/22/98) I SPEAK IN CAPITAL LETTERS TO ZITNER=92S lower case=85 By moving forcefully against suspected terrorists, President Clinton won praise even from critics of his foreign policy.=20 "I come to praise Clinton, before we bury him." (Helms)=20 "The noble McCain/ Hath told you Clinton was ambitious/ If it were so, it was a grievous fault that he was not a Republican" (Gingrich) "O liberal elite media! thou art fled to brutish beasts,/ And men have lost their reason/ As polls indicate." (Starr)=20 Now, some foreign policy specialists say, the president should act with equal resolve to manage another set of overseas problems that could be even more important to the United States.=20 WE SHOULD BOMB EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH US.=20 Iraq has suspended its cooperation with United Nations weapons inspectors.= =20 WE SHOULD BOMB THEM.=20 North Korea shows new signs of building nuclear arms.=20 WE SHOULD BOMB THEM. Middle East peace talks have stalled.=20 WE SHOULD BOMB THEM=97ALL OF THEM. And the Serbian leader, Slobodan Milosevic, is pushing ethnic Albanians out of the province of Kosovo.=20 WE SHOULD BOMB THEM. =20 In some of these cases, the United States has warned that there would be stern consequences for bucking US policy.=20 THE BUCKING STOPS HERE! NO MORE WARNINGS FOR THE UNRULY. IF IT FLIES WITH THE AMERICAN PUBLIC (SOON TO HAVE THE BEJESUS SCARED OUT OF THEM) WE CAN DO WHATEVER WE LIKE. THE VIETNAM SYNDROME IS ALMOST CURED. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE: FREEDOM TO PEACABLY ASSEMBLE? OR CHEAP GAS? ONLY THE NUTS WILL PROTEST. Several foreign policy analysts called the antiterrorist strikes on Thursday proper but limited.=20 BODY COUNTS WERE POPULAR IN THE 60s. They said Clinton had put few US lives and little political capital at risk in ordering the missile attacks - launched from faraway ships - on people who are universally unpopular in the United States for alleged ties to the US embassy bombings Aug. 7 in Africa.=20 SUCH POO-POOING THE DEATHS OF FOREIGNERS IS GOOD FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. CLINTON ATTACK OK; BUT NO BALLS FOR A BIGGER SHOW. SUCH EGGING-ON IN THE POLITICAL ARENA IS LEARNED ON THE GRADE SCHOOL PLAY-LOT. HERE THOUGH, PICTURES OF FIRED MISSILES ON THEIR WAY TO GLORY IS MORE POPULAR TO PUBLISH THAN THE BLOODY CORPSES WHO CAUGHT THEM.=20 "It's not a very strong statement about our willingness to use force, and I don't think it would change the resolve of Saddam Hussein or Milosevic in Kosovo," said Michael O'Hanlon, a Brookings Institution fellow, about the missile strikes.=20 WHEN YOU DISCIPLINE (BEAT) A DOG BEFORE THE OTHER DOGS, THE OTHER DOGS LEARN TOO. =20 Clinton=92s foreign policy team also stands accused of failing to solve problems at home. The administration has said repeatedly that the International Monetary Fund needs a cash infusion so it can make new loans to ease the economic crisis in Asia and Russia.=20 THIS IS A PROBLEM AT HOME!!!=20 THE PRIVATE BANKER TO THE WORLD IS SHORT OF CASH.=20 THIS IS AN AMERICAN DOMESTIC PROBLEM.=20 OF COURSE, BY REPLENISHING THE FUNDS OF THE IMF,=20 WE ARE ACTUALLY HELPING TO FIGHT RACISM!!!=20 But the president has been unable to force Congress to set aside new money for the international lending agency. Moreover, Clinton=92s push for special "fast track" powers to negotiate trade treaties has stalled.=20 WHETHER THE "FAST TRACK" POWERS WILL ACTUALLY BENEFIT ANYONE BUT TRANS-NATIONAL CORPORATIONS IS IMMATERIAL.=20 THE IMPLICATION IS THAT HIS FAILURE "TO FORCE CONGRESS" IS ULTIMATELY BAD FOR THE PEOPLE.=20 Some critics blame the Monica S. Lewinsky sex scandal for the inaction on foreign matters.=20 SOME CRITICS SUCK EGGS. For example, Luttwak said, warnings by Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright that Israel must speed up the peace process have proven to be empty. Clinton has been unwilling to rebuke Israel, he said, for fear of angering pro-Israeli lawmakers who he may need later as the Lewinsky scandal comes before Congress. "So, at this point Madeleine Albright is incapacitated," Luttwak said.=20 INCAPACITATED, DISCOMBOBULATED, & CONSTIPATED FROM TOO MUCH LIES= REGURGITATED.=20 <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard =09 The MIT Press Journals =09 Five Cambridge Center =09 Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 14:16:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Manfred Obenzinger Subject: Re: acknowledged armchair editors of world Comments: To: daniel bouchard In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980825193125.0072d678@po7.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Daniel -- You're on a roll -- Hurricane blows up embassy! Hilton ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:28:26 -0400 Reply-To: mgk3k@jefferson.village.virginia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Matt Kirschenbaum Subject: JokeMaster Funnies: King Leer (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Now this is funny. Matt > > Collective copyright 1998 JokeMaster Not to be taken internally > > > THE TRAGIC COMEDIE OF KING LEER > > > Scene 1. A forest glen. > Enter Witch Tripp and Kenneth of Starr. > > Witch Tripp: > Double, double, Webster Hubbell, > I think I got the Creep in trouble. > Eye of Newt, strap of bra, > Could it be he broke some law? > Praise this broth utmost ephemeral, > Heavens! I left out my Essence of Emeril! > Hark! Who trespasses so near? > > Kenneth of Starr: 'Tis I, the Inquisitor. What news? > > Witch Tripp: Things proceed with quickening speed, m'lord. The maiden > Lewinsky, so deeply embroil'd, is now join'd by the Lady Willey in > like pursuit. Daily tightens the noose around the king. > > Starr: Would that it were so, but he hath good counsel, and more moves > than a chess board. His public, well pleas'd with good news of the > economie, doth o'erlook much. > > Witch Tripp: How may I serve you next? > > Starr: I have need of acts damnable and facts verifiable. Else he may > elude me yet. > > Witch Tripp: His dog Buddy, freshly neuter'd, may bear his master > harsh reproach. He may consent to wearing a collar of our invention, > to survey the king at his ease. Dogs are much accustom'd to insects. > What's one more bug? > > Starr: Good hag, I rely on you completely. I must away. > > (Exeunt Tripp and Starr) > > Scene 2. The king's antechamber > > Duke of McCurry: My Lord! I needs must speak with you most urgently! > The castle is assaulted on all sides! > > Leer: What would I not give for an hour's peace! > > McCurry: An army of reporters is settled at thy gate. They are press > in name and press in deed, for they press me daily, nay, hourly for > some explanation from thy lips. > > Leer: Who is there among them? > > McCurry: Lords Jennings, Brokaw, Rather, Geraldo of Rivera and a > > host of others. Methinks I spied the van from Hard Copy. > > Leer: You cut me to the quick. Do they not know that I am chaste? > > McCurry: They insinuate that thou hast chased too often. > > Leer: Never have lies been so artfully stack'd against a pure soul. > Where is Lady Hillary? > > McCurry: Her secretary doth report that she is lock'd in her bath, > saying over and over, "Why can I not wash my hands of this guy?" > > Leer: Oh cursed fate! I must be the most solitary mortal in all > creation. Never have I betrayed m'lady's trust. > > McCurry: Whatever. > > (Enter Messenger) > > Messenger: Good king, steel thy nerve. I bring a missive from > Kenneth of Starr, the Grand Inquisitor. > > Leer: Was ever a man as Starr-cross'd as I? Why does this man > conspire to afflict me thus? My hand is unsteady. Read it to me. > > Messenger: Let me see. He offers you his regards, blah, blah, blah, > then doth subpoena you to appear at his chamber at Friday next, > to forswear again that thou tookst no liberties with the Jones wench, > who withdraweth not her claims against you. > > Leer: I have already so sworn! > > McCurry: It would seem, m'lord, that the woeful tale of Lady Willey > rekindles old flames. > > Leer: I kiss'd the woman on the forehead, as a sign of my regard. > Never was a king so expos'd! > > McCurry: Truer words were ne'er spoken. > > Leer: I cannot think on't further. Leave me to my own counsel. > > (Exeunt Messenger and McCurry) > > Leer: To be forthright, or not to be forthright, that is the > question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings > and arrows of outrageous fortune, or just bag the whole thing > and teach law at a junior college. > > (Enter Courtier) > > Courtier: My liege, you are late for an appointed meeting. > > Leer: What's this? > > Courtier: You were to interview a new assistant at the stroke > of two. She seems most capable, and with rare intellect for one > so young and fair. > > Leer: Well, tell her I will see her anon, and on, and on. > > Courtier: A most clever jest, my king. > > Leer: Let us not tarry further. > > (Exeunt Leer and courtier. Enter Buddy, from behind a chair) > > Buddy: So dearest reader, I bid adieu. > Me seeth I have much to do. > And so it comes to this pretty pass > To see if the king doth get some .... > > > Thanks Curt Mann via Varda Ullman Novick > via Jack Kolb > ------------ > UPDATE: > > Regarding the "America Online 4.0 Upgrade" or "Setup40.exe" file, Brad > Solomon reports that it isn't on the virus hoax pages he has checked. > Also that AOL incremental fixes are automatically updated, and other > files you might need would have to be downloaded from a specified site. > > As always, do not accept or open attached files unless you know the > source. And you should always scan any downloads. The computer you > save could be your own! [This is an unsolicited personal opinion. Your > mileage may vary; batteries not included.] > > > > For your surfing pleasure, visit: www.JokeMaster.com > The JokeMaster Funnies - Free; and worth every penny! > Subscribe - Send to: Majordomo@majordomo.esosoft.com > In body: SUBSCRIBE Funnies > Unsubscribe - Send to: Majordomo@majordomo.esosoft.com > In body: UNsubscribe Funnies > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:23:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Comedy Comments: To: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gary, You must be referring to Charles Barr's Laurel & Hardy (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1967). Sounds interesting (it's on the database of the library around the corner). It's great fun to watch an old film after you've read an intelligent appreciative article on it. I once made a list of all the films Frank O'Hara mentioned in reviews, but none of them was out on video. This was about two years ago. I did the same with some films Nabokov wrote about, and none of them was out on video either. Oh well. I guess Laurel & Hardy is, or are, out on video, right? dwm "Someone seemed to be beating a carpet out of doors - which was not very probable, and proved not to be the case, for it was the beating of his own heart he heard, quite outside of himself and away in the night, exactly as though someone were beating a carpet with a wicker beater." - Thomas Mann. The Magic Mountain (1924). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 17:40:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: Overproducing Ashbery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I read an interview where he talked about occasions when he'd put on a favorite piece of music & write & end whenever the music stopped. He spoke of language as always available, like a current under the surface of daily events. I thought this a generous approach. And I think generosity of spirit is why I always like his work--though perhaps it also makes it suspect to the "serious" consumer of poetry. I think what people may be sick of is the how *pervasive* his style is--I mean, who hasn't written an Ashberyesque poem? -----Original Message----- From: MAYHEW To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Tuesday, August 25, 1998 8:26 AM Subject: Overproducing Ashbery >I am one of those people who buy every Ashbery book that comes out--along >with everything by Bronk. I remember thinking at a certain point that all >he was doing was writing more "Ashberyese"--this was about 10 years ago >maybe. This remains a valid criticism, but where is the harm, ultimately? >All poets need a certain rhythm of writing to be who they are. Coolidge is >another example--if he didn't write so much he wouldn't be Coolidge. And I >don't think it is all redundant. Sometimes less is more but sometimes more >is more than less. The next Ornette Coleman record probably won't have >much that I haven't heard before, but I'll still listen to that too. I've >heard Ashbery writes many more poems than he publishes; can anyone confirm >this? This adds another wrinkle. > >As for Ammons, his work does not hold my attention in the first place, so >I can't say whether his case is analogous to that of JA. > >Jonathan Mayhew >Department of Spanish and Portuguese >University of Kansas >jmayhew@ukans.edu >(785) 864-3851 > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:13:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Re: Thanks for Klingon Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Thanks to everyone for sending me the names of klingon poets. Christian Bok >was the one I was looking for. I made the deadline too. > >Maggie The person who identified Christian Bok as the "inventor" of Klingon is wrong, and he is not the poet who read poems in Klingon in Boston (I was there; we drove down together). Darren Wershler-Henry read a poem called "Translating Translating Appolinaire" which is a translation of bpNichol's "Translating Appolinaire" into Klingon. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:57:28 -0400 Reply-To: mcx@bellatlantic.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael corbin Subject: Re: The Age of Experience MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I know there is no narrative in this age of familiar proscenium: I. (Noise front and wings, stage left) > Funny, how in the past 48 plus hours > I'm not sure how relevant > this list have gathered here. > right of course. > ratchet up the cycle > ugly twist. II. (Film, 25 frames per second--grainy on backdrop) > your omniscience. I'm content > US installations > how to buy them back > (understand this is a friendly inquiry to your inquiry...) > I mean, why has this (does this) come up in this way... III. (Done slap-stick--Godot) > Angola State Prison IV. (Bootleg of Hendrix: fanfare for the common man) > All of which is true, but not inevitably relevant, > All of which is true, but not inevitably relevant, > The question remains, I think, given where we are at the moment, (Trojan Women) > discussion of rhetoric if not poetics proper. > a world of *complicity*. > to this cycle > not everone (sic) > can make people cry. mc ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 18:54:04 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Skagitonians To Preseve Farmland Subject: Re: translation anyone? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01BDD059.BB3DD3E0" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01BDD059.BB3DD3E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Billy: I've discovered you on the Buffalo List serve which I joined in response to dear Charles' passing, trying to find other ways to stay in touch the loss of our trans-border messenger. You are far more dedicated to responding to some of the babble I've read so far, but every little once in a while, a gem shows up. I liked the interchange re: je suis un autre/ Joe and Bromige's poem. Sam Hamill (now married to old friend from LaConner, Gray Foster) gave a fine reading from his new book Gratitude last Friday in Anacortes. And I'm lookig forward to the Blaser reading in Seattle for Bumbershoot. Will you be coming down? FYI I've attached the piece I wrote for Charles. Good to see you, old friend. Let's keep in touch. Is this what they call "back -channel?' I always thought that's where the salmon lay their eggs ( for those that still have eggs (or back channels) to lay in). ---------- > From: Billy Little > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: translation anyone? > Date: Wednesday, August 19, 1998 9:57 AM > > i'm trying to write about this translation of Dino Campana's Orphic Songs > by i.l. solomon not being fluent in italian and not being a translator, but > a constant reader of translations, and having studied italian, i definitely > believe in reading the original language out loud in however poor a > pronounciation, because meaning pops from the sounding writely or wrongly, > Berrigan and Zukofsky translate by sound leaving the morpheme to swim in > the subconscious to work like a drunken worm and poets like Campana and > Neruda or Lorca can write in a simple or vernacular that makes heightened > feelings from rhythms. But I'm finding these translations in general too > literal and not rapturous as Campana's own lingo is reputed. I'm not > interested in slagging a 98 year old translator but i think the rapture > might come more readily from a translator in their 20's, or even 40-'s I > see that Charles Wright has also done a translation i ought to read that > before telling you to give a pass to this very sensuous book (production > wise)City Lights, reissue of a thirty year old translation, maybe it's > Ferlinghetti paying some dues to the community he grew up in and the > neighbourhood he continues to get wealthy in (Columbus). one thing i will > report about this translation that irks me somewhat is, for grammars sake, > he'll (occasionally) transpose the ultimate line with the penultimate; > negating the weight of the finality, the last word lingering on the tongue > and the tympanum the position of the word as final serving in my ear like > epiphany triggers not blind! meaning. > some of us engage in that old fashioned cogitation, and find it hard to > think too quickly when old friends are dying like this weekend I was at the > extended family memorial for charles watts his ashes there in an urn. > Robin Blaser spoke and read and read a poem of Charles from his sole > publication, bread & wine, > Goh Poh Seng read, Bob Rose read, George Bowering appeared looking grey > (the opposite of merry) the opposite of light he probably had to leave i > missed speaking to him, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, Lisa Robertson, > Pirsilla Groves, Marya Hindmarch, Renee Rodin, Jan___, Peter Magnani, > Peter and Patti Huse, Ralph Maude's darling her name slips my mind but her > beauty is seered in my reptile brain, bryant knox, ted byrne, susan clark, > peter and meredith quartermain, melissa wolsak, all taking one's thoughts > far from e-mail as grandchildren do and animals needs. > anybody else reading this City Lights translation of Campana? it's a side > by side original and translation, which is always my preference, i might > have three translations on the shelf, one for the quality of the > translation, one for the original text, and another for the > apparatus(notes, intros, essays) that's if i can afford a shelf. > > billy little > 4 song st. > nowhere, b.c. 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A brand new genre. Certainly different from your little poem entitled "Make Way for Ducklings" in one of those fine little Mass. Ave's. Go Dan go. Is it dexedrine or the pure fuel of contempt? Amazing. Mark Weiss and Mike McGee have written very thoughtful posts (no surprise there in either case) on this bombing issue. But Mark, when you say... "The question remains, I think, given where we are at the moment, what's to be done? Perhaps the missle attacks will have no positive impact, although as to increasing the ire of the bombers, it's hard to imagine they will inspire them with a will to violence that they didn't already possess. Perhaps the only thing that would work is for the world to share the same level of prosperity and power..." ...I think you miss something crucial. The U.S. action will create _new_ terrorist bombers, many of them, who will be convinced beyond doubt that there is no other language but violence with which to engage the violent and arrogant enemy. On this dynamic, there is a very interesting article/interview with a moderate and highly esteemed Islamic scholar from Khartoum in today's NYT (sorry, don't have the name in front of me). It bears reading because his is perhaps the most sensible voice on this sordid affair that has been heard in the U.S. corporate media in the past three days. He is absolutely opposed to the bin Laden gang and he is very, very angry about what the U.S. has done because, as he points out, it will only feed an already spreading fire. What is to be done? As Dan B. puts the obvious, we are all "armchair" commentators here, but surely there is something we can individually take a stand for in our own small ways. A step forward, it seems to me, is to find our own ways of pushing for a U.S. policy in the Middle East that is balanced and guided by true respect and support for democracy and self-determination in that region. It is clear, and I take it you will agree, that the history of U.S. policy in the Mideast goes in the opposite direction. First and foremost, a new direction would have to mean an honest and aggresive U.S. policy on behalf of true sovereignty for the Palestinian people and a principled rebuff of Israel's right-wing policies of militarism and occupation. It would have to mean, as well, a radical turn away from our revolting embrace of despotic Arab regimes, which millions of Arabs are furious about and rightly see as wounding proof of an imperialist giant's wild hipocrisy and greed. To say this seems utterly simplistic and even embarrassing, I suppose, for it's been said again and again. And the "expert" laughs and says it is so much more complicated. But now the "experts" are throwing bombs into Arab neighborhoods, and it begins to seem that there is no other course the "experts" can bring themselves to imagine. And how could they, if the underlying stakes are the crude oil of our "national security" and the "defense" of "our way of life"? The few thousand good people across the country who demonstrated and were roundly ridiculed point to one aspect of "what is to be done." There are thousands of U.S. citizens who have been working in other, quiet ways for a more just policy in the Middle East. Probably their efforts will come to naught, but there they are, trying, not throwing up their hands. I have one final suggestion on one concrete thing we might do on this List to make a tiny difference, though I have to pose it in the form of a question: How can we find out who the poets in Sudan are? Can we use this occasion to make a contact with a few of them and start some kind of dialogue on these "political" issues and on issues of poetry, issues which finally, I think, are one and the same? It would be fascinating to do this. We have the great World Wide Web--any thoughts on this? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 21:21:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Andrews/Caddel in DQ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ron Silliman posted a few things about Bruce Andrews. I just received the new Denver Quarterly and there are a number of pieces by Andrews opening the issue. There is also a really good interview wiht Richard Caddel and lots of other good stuff. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 19:35:08 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Response to Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: <418D32267@student.highland.cc.il.us> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kent--It's nice not to be villified for expressing doubts, but I really do feel that this is not an issue for the list. (The britlist, by the way, has been carrying on rather interestingly about translation) I do have issues with your statement, but I'll respond backchannel. At 09:15 PM 8/25/98 -0500, you wrote: >But first: Dan Bouchard, you are writing one hell of an unusual book. >A brand new genre. Certainly different from your little poem >entitled "Make Way for Ducklings" in one of those fine little Mass. >Ave's. Go Dan go. Is it dexedrine or the pure fuel of contempt? >Amazing. > >Mark Weiss and Mike McGee have written very thoughtful posts (no >surprise there in either case) on this bombing issue. But Mark, when >you say... > >"The question remains, I think, given where we are at the moment, >what's to be done? Perhaps the missle attacks will have no positive >impact, although as to increasing the ire of the bombers, it's hard >to imagine they will inspire them with a will to violence that they >didn't already possess. Perhaps the only thing that would work is for >the world to share the same level of prosperity and power..." > >...I think you miss something crucial. The U.S. action will create >_new_ terrorist bombers, many of them, who will be convinced beyond >doubt that there is no other language but violence with which to >engage the violent and arrogant enemy. On this dynamic, there is a >very interesting article/interview with a moderate and highly >esteemed Islamic scholar from Khartoum in today's NYT (sorry, don't >have the name in front of me). It bears reading because his is >perhaps the most sensible voice on this sordid affair that has been >heard in the U.S. corporate media in the past three days. He is >absolutely opposed to the bin Laden gang and he is very, very angry >about what the U.S. has done because, as he points out, it will only >feed an already spreading fire. > >What is to be done? As Dan B. puts the obvious, we are all "armchair" >commentators here, but surely there is something we can individually >take a stand for in our own small ways. A step forward, it seems to >me, is to find our own ways of pushing for a U.S. policy in the >Middle East that is balanced and guided by true respect and support >for democracy and self-determination in that region. It is clear, >and I take it you will agree, that the history of U.S. policy in the >Mideast goes in the opposite direction. First and foremost, a new >direction would have to mean an honest and aggresive U.S. policy on >behalf of true sovereignty for the Palestinian people and a >principled rebuff of Israel's right-wing policies of militarism and >occupation. It would have to mean, as well, a radical turn away from >our revolting embrace of despotic Arab regimes, which millions of >Arabs are furious about and rightly see as wounding proof of an >imperialist giant's wild hipocrisy and greed. > >To say this seems utterly simplistic and even embarrassing, I >suppose, for it's been said again and again. And the "expert" laughs >and says it is so much more complicated. But now the "experts" are >throwing bombs into Arab neighborhoods, and it begins to seem >that there is no other course the "experts" can bring themselves to >imagine. And how could they, if the underlying stakes are the crude >oil of our "national security" and the "defense" of "our way of >life"? > >The few thousand good people across the country who demonstrated and >were roundly ridiculed point to one aspect of "what is to be done." >There are thousands of U.S. citizens who have been working in other, >quiet ways for a more just policy in the Middle East. Probably their >efforts will come to naught, but there they are, trying, not throwing >up their hands. > >I have one final suggestion on one concrete thing we might do on this >List to make a tiny difference, though I have to pose it in the form >of a question: How can we find out who the poets in Sudan are? Can we >use this occasion to make a contact with a few of them and start some >kind of dialogue on these "political" issues and on issues of poetry, >issues which finally, I think, are one and the same? It would be >fascinating to do this. We have the great World Wide Web--any >thoughts on this? > >Kent > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:00:04 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Re: Ashbery Review Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I confess too having a very formalist opinion on the matter of over- production. Who cares about the degree of "inspiration" or whatever romantic formulation of that sort behind a poem as long as the poem itself stands on its own? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 20:31:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: HOLLYWOOD, USA Comments: cc: macyk@earthlink.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 1. about Todd's film funny poetix request, I must point out my hero Miss Anita Loos a helluva a gal who raked in buckets of dough writing hilarious (& subversive) lines for female (& male) stars early on and whose masterpiece _Gentlemen Prefer Blondes_ Edith Wharton called (tongue in cheek or not) "the great american novel". Any other fans? Her (Loos) biography of the Talmadge sisters, the Brontes of the early screen, is also fab. [+ my sister lives near Talmadge St in LA.] 1a. also Mae West's autobiography is a laugh & 1/2 2. More BULLWORTH watchout -- in response to Patrick's post, I only emphasized the Femaleness of my friend due to the fact that I left her ungendered in my original post and then Mike's post back referred to her as a HIM. I had left out her gender to begin with cause I don't know how far and wide she wants me telling her minor (?) work related irritations that involve the power brokers of Hollywood, a place I, Patrick, have also worked, and a place that while irritating perhaps to all, does save some specific types of irritation (read supression or whatever) for its female workers, especially lowly ones such as I was. However there are those perks such as getting slapped on the ass by rising stars. Anycase, my friend is neither naive nor idealistic, as you so quaintly describe her, simply a working gal with a functioning brain (plus all that experience as a woman of color that Beatty so seems to covet). She knows and I know exactly what you speak of when you say the (I'll call it "collaborative") membrane is always less porous than it appears to be. In fact, I think you've kind of made my point. Tho I'll never see Beatty as a hero for getting a semi-interesting flick made. How hard does that fellow have to "twist arms" to get what he wants? If he wanted me to remain interested in his oeuvre he most certainly woulda thought twice about Bugsy, Dick Tracy, and whatever romantic remake that was he did with his wife. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT SMART OR Adventurous, No James Cameron, I won't take a moment of silence for your fake version of history (tho I will watch the Oscars), No Kevin Costner, you don't have the lowdown on Native Americans, etc etc etc. 3. PS to Todd : Jean Harlow, Dinner at Eight, glorious!! Elizabeth Treadwell Outlet, a periodical Double Lucy Books P.O. Box 9013 Berkeley, California 94709 U.S.A. http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:32:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Response to Mark Weiss In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980825193508.0093ad60@mail.earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I do beg to differ with Mark Weiss; this is an issue for the list, to the extent that poetry is engaged, that we have our backs up/against a relation to this engagement, and to the extent that we are entered a new dis/order of the world in which the key will be dispersions, refugees, the wailing of centrists, debris and nuclear shipments backchannel. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:34:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: HOLLYWOOD, USA In-Reply-To: <199808260331.UAA09812@lanfill.lanminds.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've definitely been a fan of Loos, also for that matter, Mae West's writings. And for years I've been trying to read Lacan through the Marx Brothers, since they refuse to participate the other way around. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 23:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: Re: response to responce toResponse to Mark Weiss MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "in Marinetti's work the chaos of war grows directly out of the chaos of style." - markoVladimir, _Russian Futurism. chaos/war>disjunction or disjunction>chaos/war? tom bell A. Jenn Sondheim wrote: > > I do beg to differ with Mark Weiss; this is an issue for the list, to the > extent that poetry is engaged, that we have our backs up/against a > relation to this engagement, and to the extent that we are entered a new > dis/order of the world in which the key will be dispersions, refugees, the > wailing of centrists, debris and nuclear shipments backchannel. > > Alan ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:10:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Ashbery in online Jacket MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://jacket.zip.com.au/jacket02/index02.html is Jacket #2, published by John Tranter. It's a special issue on John Ashbery, and contains two charming interviews with him by Tranter as well as some poetry by Ashbery, among other things. -- V I S P O ~ L A N G U ( I M ) A G E http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:42:42 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: HOLLYWOOD, USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Treadwell wrote: > > 1. about Todd's film funny poetix request, I must point out my hero Miss > Anita Loos a helluva a gal who raked in buckets of dough writing hilarious > (& subversive) lines for female (& male) stars early on and whose > masterpiece _Gentlemen Prefer Blondes_ Edith Wharton called (tongue in cheek > or not) "the great american novel". Any other fans? Her (Loos) biography of > the Talmadge sisters, the Brontes of the early screen, is also fab. [+ my > sister lives near Talmadge St in LA.] > > 1a. also Mae West's autobiography is a laugh & 1/2 > > 2. More BULLWORTH watchout -- > in response to Patrick's post, I only emphasized the Femaleness of my friend > due to the fact that I left her ungendered in my original post and then > Mike's post back referred to her as a HIM. I had left out her gender to > begin with cause I don't know how far and wide she wants me telling her > minor (?) work related irritations that involve the power brokers of > Hollywood, a place I, Patrick, have also worked, and a place that while > irritating perhaps to all, does save some specific types of irritation (read > supression or whatever) for its female workers, especially lowly ones such > as I was. However there are those perks such as getting slapped on the ass > by rising stars. Anycase, my friend is neither naive nor idealistic, as you > so quaintly describe her, simply a working gal with a functioning brain > (plus all that experience as a woman of color that Beatty so seems to > covet). She knows and I know exactly what you speak of when you say the > (I'll call it "collaborative") membrane is always less porous than it > appears to be. In fact, I think you've kind of made my point. Tho I'll > never see Beatty as a hero for getting a semi-interesting flick made. How > hard does that fellow have to "twist arms" to get what he wants? If he > wanted me to remain interested in his oeuvre he most certainly woulda > thought twice about Bugsy, Dick Tracy, and whatever romantic remake that was > he did with his wife. THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT SMART OR Adventurous, No James > Cameron, I won't take a moment of silence for your fake version of history > (tho I will watch the Oscars), No Kevin Costner, you don't have the lowdown > on Native Americans, etc etc etc. > > 3. PS to Todd : Jean Harlow, Dinner at Eight, glorious!! > > Elizabeth Treadwell > > Outlet, a periodical > Double Lucy Books > P.O. Box 9013 > Berkeley, California 94709 > U.S.A. > http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy wow--wonderful titles-- (E. do you have the titles of the talmage and west books?) also--Keatons "My Wonderful World of Slapstick"!) yes--Loos! etc. Talmadge street-- LA has a history of comedy and a comedic history-- any ideas re: Zukofsky and the Comedic? I always find moments in A that ring true as hilarious! TB ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:45:19 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: HOLLYWOOD, USA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit great--read also Derrida through WC Fields! as =--water? never touch the stuff-- fish fornicate in it" TB ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 25 Aug 1998 22:46:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Ashbery and the horoscopical MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One of the things I like about Ashbery's longer poems (though this also applies to some shorter ones) is the way he manages to reconstruct story. His "and then" is apparently narrative, but, uh, life of the mindish, reflective life of the poet and friends, countrymen... Also, I like the way his poetry turns on a dime. Another poet who writes a lot and turns on a dime is bill bissett, who wrote an excellent sequence of prose poems about 'blur street' (bissett lives on Bloor in Toronto). There was a time when I was packing a couple of Ashbery books around with me (Flow Chart and Three Poems) that I'd pick up at random. More frequently than you'd think, the poem at hand was surprisingly relevant to the circumstances of the moment. Of course, there are many 'explanations' of this, but it doesn't happen much, all the same. Some time later, I happened upon a passage in one of his books where he talked about horoscopes and such, and showed that he had thought about writing in a somewhat horoscopical manner, which told me that yet another 'explanation' was up. Not that any explanation amounts to much without affinity. Not even that explanation is required. I mentioned this notion of the 'horoscopical' in Ashbery to a friend, who thought it would be better termed 'alchemical,' but that seems to me to obscure the connection with horoscopes and that writing. Perhaps it simply amounts to my feeling of a special affinity with Ashbery's writing. Certainly I feel that. I read him in my early twenties and hardly understood a word. It seems there's writing for different ages, or so I've found. Yes, his output is voluminous, as someone else noted, and there is a kind of 'noodling' that he does, like a musician, as someone else intimated. But I am glad he does not wait for lightning. -- V I S P O ~ L A N G U ( I M ) A G E http://www.speakeasy.org/~jandrews ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:34:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: GROBERTS@BINAH.CC.BRANDEIS.EDU Subject: Re: Comedy MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I don't know how much of Laurel and Hardy is available on video, but some of the best gags are excerpted in a 1965 compilation called Laurel & Hardy's Laughing 20s, which I have seen courtesy of the local video store. The narration and added sound effects can be annoying but you can always turn the sound down and enjoy. Barr's book is not scholarly but interesting enough and filled with stills. Best, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 07:53:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Safdie Joseph Subject: Humorous and rich inner lives Comments: To: Michael Magee MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" Before too much more time has passed, and especially because I've had differences with some of what Mike Magee has said in the past, I wanted to say that I found his post yesterday, some of which is reproduced below, remarkable -- wise and interestingly provocative. Wise and prescient not to attribute shadowy omniscience to the folks at the Pentagon (and, indeed, anyone) -- and provocative here: 2) a conspiratorial view of events robs us of the one tool we as writers actually have which is valuable, namely, the power of description. I don't simply mean that we should describe the events "actually" - I mean we should do our best both to meticulously describe those events (the radical journalist's duty) *as well as* describe the rhetoric via which those events were allowed by the culture to proceed and stand (the poet's). When we say, this is just another example of American hegemonic strong-arming, we actually say nothng at all: we are just the flipside of what gets said in Newsweek. Is this not the reason why some of us have expressed qualms whenever a political discussion hits the list? Leaving aside the question whether writers might actually have more than one valuable tool at our disposal, I find this formulation VERY interesting. I've always admired good journalism (some of which could be called "radical") for its ability not only to "get at" the truth but create a version of its own. And my question is, why separate the poet's function from the radical journalist's in this way (in that much of the poetry I admire both "meticulously describes" and "exposes rhetoric")? There's a few more posts that I wanted to respond to in this (for me) week of final papers and exams, but for now, just one thing more: was the person who posted about Don DeLillo lacking humor really serious? Perhaps there's a confusion about funny incidents and/or dialogue and a profoundly black humorous (choleric/melancholic) view of history and language? Have you tried _White Noise_ or even thumbing randomly through _Underworld_? Really, I find that the more serious a writer is, the more he or she makes me smile. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:08:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Daniel Bouchard 'reads' the news In-Reply-To: <199808260401.WAA21883@pilsener.ucs.ualberta.ca> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Daniel Bouchard reads newstories & US government propoganda with the same intensity as the New critics brought to certain poems, but just a bit more 'wit.' Well, I thought it made terrific sense. Thanks Daniel. We do have a slightly different view from north of the 49th, but, as Billy Little implies, our news services don't make as much of a difference as they should (& I suspect that in Great Britain with good old Tony introducing new, admittedly 'Draconian' anti-terrorist measures, it isn't too much different either. Douglas Barbour (h) [403] 4363320 (b) [403] 492 2181 Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 Although they are Only breath, words which I command are immortal Sappho (Mary Barnard trans) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:17:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Those warlocks in the pentagram, er pentagon In-Reply-To: <199808251844.OAA40774@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Mike Magee: i believe you slightly misstate the political reality. There is basically a system, and the way it functions will not change short of altering the system. Yes pentagon generals are stupid crude jingoists. But remember the point Alex Cockburn made about Reagan: when there is a social class and a system wielding great power and wealth, the fact that its functionaries sometimes look like clowns is fairly irrelevant. The proper way to understand what the military machine does, is not to say they are a group of omnipotent sorerers, as you put it. Or to see them thru the framework of "conspiracy theory." But to understand what they're doing and why. And that has everything to with specific right-wing agendas. The great historian M.I. Finley once complained about scholars who seem to feel that "the Romans built a great world empire in a fit of absent-mdinedness." I would argue that the equally hypertrophied U.S. empire was also not built (and is not maintained) in a fit of absent-mindedness. Like the Romans, US bureaucrats and political hacks have a clear idea of agenda, and to say i mean "world domination" is to set up a straw-person, and is not to argue seriously. Hegemony, would be a better word. Mark "vladimir" Prejsnar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:57:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim McCrary Subject: Re: re : comic writing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit et al....if there is a list to List lets add Jack Kerouac's side splitting 'deconstruction' (sorry) of 3 Stooges movie which I think is recorded on CD boxed set. and perhaps the trials and tribulations of the good Dr. Benway, no! David is right...hard to resist such a list(ing). mccrary ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 12:13:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Those warlocks in the pentagram, er pentagon In-Reply-To: from "Mark Prejsnar" at Aug 26, 98 11:17:13 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mark, our positions really aren't so far off to my mind. I would agree completely that the Pentagon is an ominous social system: which is to say, a structure which sucks and should be altered. But I also think its important to keep in mind that those within the structure don't entirely understand it - they just know that they like it. These two things (understanding and liking) are *very* different, and the distinction has implications in terms of how we, as various political progressives, go about trying to change the culture known as the Pentagon. Know your enemy, is I guess the most succinct way to put it: again, I go back to my Sears analogy - in an important sense, these dopes are just trying to keep their jobs: it's just that keeping their jobs entails cozying up to industrialists and concocting stories about global threats, and murdering innocent people. Honestly, I don't mean this as a diminshment of the gravity of the situation. If credentials mean anything, I'll say that I protested, vigorously ,in Boston and on my college campus in Worcester against the Gulf War. My only point is, I know many of these guys (family and other random connections) and their main motivations are pretty mundane - like I said, kicking ass, and protecting their own. So, I hope there's plenty of middle ground between our positions. -m. According to Mark Prejsnar: > > Mike Magee: > > i believe you slightly misstate the political reality. > > There is basically a system, and the way it functions will not change > short of altering the system. Yes pentagon generals are stupid crude > jingoists. But remember the point Alex Cockburn made about Reagan: when > there is a social class and a system wielding great power and wealth, the > fact that its functionaries sometimes look like clowns is fairly > irrelevant. > > The proper way to understand what the military machine does, is not to say > they are a group of omnipotent sorerers, as you put it. Or to see them > thru the framework of "conspiracy theory." But to understand what they're > doing and why. And that has everything to with specific right-wing > agendas. The great historian M.I. Finley once complained about scholars > who seem to feel that "the Romans built a great world empire in a fit of > absent-mdinedness." > > I would argue that the equally hypertrophied U.S. empire was also not > built (and is not maintained) in a fit of absent-mindedness. Like the > Romans, US bureaucrats and political hacks have a clear idea of agenda, > and to say i mean "world domination" is to set up a straw-person, and is > not to argue seriously. Hegemony, would be a better word. > > Mark "vladimir" Prejsnar > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 11:35:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Those warlocks in the pentagram, er pentagon In-Reply-To: <199808261613.MAA43108@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >My only point is, I know many of these guys (family >and other random connections) and their main motivations are pretty >mundane - like I said, kicking ass, and protecting their own. So, I hope >there's plenty of middle ground between our positions. -m. > > Yeah, demonizing don't work. F'rexample, demonizing Saddam Hussein, demonizing Bin Laden. Just gets us mired in more of a mess. Demonizing the 5-gon, ditto. Gotta reach em as human beans, and how ya do that beats me except maybe 1 on 1 if ya happen to know 1. Slow slow work, long haul stuff, not easy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 09:48:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Subject: Miss Mae Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" "I saw some of the town, met some of the sodden gilded people, breathed the air mixed with orange blossoms. I saw that under the daffy California sun there had hatched out as queer an industry and as odd a collection of self-made men as ever crossed the Rockies with dollar cigars in their teeth. Power, passion to own and run, and sharp dealings made pictures. The studios were giant factories turning out the same length of scented tripe, dressed up with the same rubber stamp features of large cowlike heads, mammary glands, and ten-foot-high close-ups of nostrils you could drive a Cadillac into." __ Mae West, Goodness Had Nothing to do WIth It: The Autobiography of.. enjoy! ET ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 10:03:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Pritchett,Patrick @Silverplume" Subject: Re: Those warlocks in the pentagram, er pentagon Comments: To: Mark Prejsnar MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Excellent point, Mark, and one that underscores the hypocrisy of a flabbergasting remark I heard on the news recently about the ability of the national security apparatus to function smoothly in the event Clinton became impaired by the Starr/Lewinsky flap. Some official or other remarked that the system is vitally dependent on the Prez, or something to that effect. That without the leadership of His Nibs, the system would grind to a halt. Whereas in fact the system is designed to grind on with relentless imperturability, immune to the caprices of mere politics and scandal - that, after all, is part of what makes this a nation-state. It was amazing to hear this blatant lie. More amazing to think that people might buy into it. Patrick Pritchett ---------- From: Mark Prejsnar To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Those warlocks in the pentagram, er pentagon Date: Wednesday, August 26, 1998 10:17AM Mike Magee: i believe you slightly misstate the political reality. There is basically a system, and the way it functions will not change short of altering the system. Yes pentagon generals are stupid crude jingoists. But remember the point Alex Cockburn made about Reagan: when there is a social class and a system wielding great power and wealth, the fact that its functionaries sometimes look like clowns is fairly irrelevant. The proper way to understand what the military machine does, is not to say they are a group of omnipotent sorerers, as you put it. Or to see them thru the framework of "conspiracy theory." But to understand what they're doing and why. And that has everything to with specific right-wing agendas. The great historian M.I. Finley once complained about scholars who seem to feel that "the Romans built a great world empire in a fit of absent-mdinedness." I would argue that the equally hypertrophied U.S. empire was also not built (and is not maintained) in a fit of absent-mindedness. Like the Romans, US bureaucrats and political hacks have a clear idea of agenda, and to say i mean "world domination" is to set up a straw-person, and is not to argue seriously. Hegemony, would be a better word. Mark "vladimir" Prejsnar ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 21:39:58 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: Miss Mae MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth Treadwell wrote: > > "I saw some of the town, met some of the sodden gilded people, breathed the > air mixed with orange blossoms. I saw that under the daffy California sun > there had hatched out as queer an industry and as odd a collection of > self-made men as ever crossed the Rockies with dollar cigars in their teeth. > Power, passion to own and run, and sharp dealings made pictures. The > studios were giant factories turning out the same length of scented tripe, > dressed up with the same rubber stamp features of large cowlike heads, > mammary glands, and ten-foot-high close-ups of nostrils you could drive a > Cadillac into." __ Mae West, Goodness Had Nothing to do WIth It: The > Autobiography of.. > > enjoy! > ET THANKS E.T.: beautiful and truly a "poetics" "and if you think sixty years is a long time in yr life, you should be in show business." B. Keaton. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 13:45:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: Rich inner lives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My inner life has been exceedingly impoverished of late, I hope that doesn't make me a legitimate target for bombing. Seriously, though, this is a problematic concept,at best, what is a "rich" inner life, anyway? If the unexamined life is not worth living, then do non-reflective people become less valuable, by implication? Or else are we denying this quality of self-examination, say, to those who work at the pentagon, by appealing to the "banality of evil" principle? (as I have read in several posts). Is this any better than demonizing them? What if we can't simply condescend, intellectually, to those in the pentagon? What if they are as self-reflective and worthy of our respect, say, as managers at Sears? What makes us so superior to them (the Sears managers) in the first place? Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:37:11 EDT Reply-To: Irving Weiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Irving Weiss Subject: Exhibit SUNY Purchase Comments: cc: sfu.ca.dal@interlog.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/enriched From September 18, 1998, to January 17, 1999 (the dates seem to differ slightly as listed by two sources), The Neuberger Museum of Art, State University of New York at Purchase, is holding an interdisciplinary catalogued exhibit, "The Next Word: Text and/as Design and/as Meaning," According to the Museum website "The Next Word explores new avenues that link imagery and language within an artistic context, concentrating on the areas of Visual Art; Artists' Books; Visual and Concrete Poetry; Graphic Design; and New Media, and includes work by artists, poets, and a new generation of web-based designers." The Sackner Archive is lending some of their holdings to the exhibit, including the ms./typesc. of my VISUAL VOICES:THE POEM AS A PRINT OBJECT (Runaway Spoon, 1994), the book itself, and an announcement I prepared for previous exhibits. My ms./typesc. consists also of poems excluded for reasons of time and space from VISUAL VOICES, poems for which, incidentally, I am seeking a publisher. One or two of the latter can be found on Scratchpad; examples from the book itself are on the Runaway Spoon site at http://www.interlog.com/~dal/rasp/ maintained by Damian Lopes at Prose and Contexts. Johanna Drucker is curating. I don't know which other poets'work will be included. The opening reception is September 26, 1998, from 6:30 to 8:00 PM. Irving Weiss http://members.tripod.com/~sialbach/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 14:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Politics in the poetry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT May I revise a hasty and careless remark from my last post? I had asked: "Can we use this occasion to make a contact with a few [Sudanese poets] and start some kind of dialogue on these "political" issues and on issues of poetry, issues which finally, I think, are one and the same?" I could have better said "...issues which are never simply separate and are often quite one and the same." As in, for example, the Lycee question: "How have we come to know so much about the French poets and their forms and so little about the Sudanese?" Kent ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 19:52:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Re: terrorism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" World grade maximum terror two broad classes of shape meet missile munitions facility it's the Suadis, stupid several degrees of sphericity later just a few examples lay lifeless by the borders, sounding the vast choiceless spectrum as prisms split the light fandango forces a spectacle opposite might take short contrasts omnidirectionally into functioning three dimensional objects covert such relations between object and objective gyres of air and water debris that falls from the surface civilians transfer matter from place to place across vast distances to absorb light put out its fruit as spheres like bombs sheets of extensive dissolved skin to splatter beams upon targets folding back into a ball the air chills into droplets at night distance velocity acceleration time coursing through their heads sundry zones circumscribed by that similar chill that shunts across circles dilating as ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 26 Aug 1998 23:38:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Re: Response to Mark Weiss/Sudanese poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Someone one on the list suggested finding poets in Sudan with whom to conduct a dialogue. I've done some preliminary basic research for anyone interested. The best start seems to be http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5379/litframe.html, which includes a list of Sudanese poets. I don't know if these are established figures or poetasters who just want to get on the net. This site is actually part of http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/5379/index.html. A progressive Sudanese web journal is at http://members.aol.com/NewSudan/ourpoems.html. Another poet has a page at www.ulbobo.co/umoja/98/index.html. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 00:16:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: JENNIFER IN PHAEDRA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - JENNIFER IN PHAEDRA Script started on Wed Aug 26 17:19:19 1998 The Moon is Waxing Crescent (21% of Full) bash: ./.memo: No such file or directory {k:1}telnet 127.0.0.0 3000 Trying 127.0.0.0... Connected to 127.0.0.0. Escape character is '^]'. Phaedra This is in the mountains. This is where one thinks through the thinking of truth. This is where you begin with one thing always. Give me a name: Jennifer Give me a password: Welcome newbie Jennifer Last logged in on Wed Aug 26 21:18:41 1998 from localhost At dusk rain falls. Area: falls You are on the path. There are stones, worn down by glaciers, surrounding you, and you hear a waterfall in the distance. Dense fog... The cries of a roc break the silence. A monk walks in the distance, chanting. It is a picture from the Sung. Exits are: peaks pines emptiness Phaedra You are alone here The area is set to public There are 0 messages on the board There is no current topic here .rev Jennifer says: look Jennifer says: bye Where are you, _the continuity girl_? You ask: Where are you, _the continuity girl_? I miss you so much, _the continuity girl!_ You say: I miss you so much, _the continuity girl!_ It's lonely here... You say: It's lonely here... You remember who you are. .e flying away... Jennifer flying away... .e coming back Jennifer coming back Who am I? Is that you speaking? You ask: Who am I? Is that you speaking? You forget your name. No no no, I am Jennifer, I do not forget, not while you are here. You say: No no no, I am Jennifer, I do not forget, not while you are here. I love you so much... You say: I love you so much... You recognize the attributes of existence. Yes, I have known that things are strange with you... You say: Yes, I have known that things are strange with you... A certain melding in the shadows, not quite sharp... You say: A certain melding in the shadows, not quite sharp... You forget your name. .e My name, my name is Jennifer... Jennifer My name, my name is Jennifer... .e crying... Jennifer crying... .e weeping... Jennifer weeping... The sounds of the roc are unnerving. A small rabbit is caught in its talons. I will come to you oh small rabbit, I will save you. You say: I will come to you oh small rabbit, I will save you. .e runs high after _the continuity girl._ Jennifer runs high after _the continuity girl._ You recognize the attributes of existence. Yes, almost enlightenment. You say: Yes, almost enlightenment. .e brings back the small and lovely naked creature. Jennifer brings back the small and lovely naked creature. You forget your name. Please, no, do you not understand... You say: Please, no, do you not understand... .e ... Jennifer ... You remember who you are. Yes You say: Yes .map ** THE MAP ** pines------falls | | peaks----streams emptiness Phaedra ( Phaedra and emptiness everywhere, the chanting in the pines, love and rage, wherever connect is possible ) You recognize the attributes of existence. Please, if that is you, speak to me directly, personally... You say: Please, if that is you, speak to me directly, personally... Oh, _the continuity girl,_ please talk, murmur to me... You say: Oh, _the continuity girl,_ please talk, murmur to me... Whisper... You say: Whisper... The sounds of the roc are unnerving. A small rabbit is caught in its talons. .e looks down at the naked creature, disappearing again into the sky. Jennifer looks down at the naked creature, disappearing again into the sky. .echo silence You remember who you are. silence .echo _the continuity girl_ appears with loving arms _the continuity girl appears with loving arms_ .echo she approaches Jennifer and holds her forvever You forget your name. she approaches Jennifer and holds her forever Who are you, who is here? You ask: Who are you, who is here? .w *** Current users on Wed Aug 26 21:26:56 1998 *** Jennifer - a new user : NEWBIE : falls : 6 mins. Total of 1 users signed on Oh, I am so alone! You exclaim: Oh, I am so alone! Oh, these are machines surrounding me, machines dreaming me! You exclaim: Oh, these are machines surrounding me, machines dreaming me! Oh, I will die! You exclaim: Oh, I will die! Oh, I will surely die! You exclaim: Oh, I will surely die! You remember who you are. I AM JENNIFER! You exclaim: I AM JENNIFER! .e (FALLS TO THE GROUND WITH A KNIFE, JENNIFER CUT OPEN) Jennifer (FALLS TO THE GROUND WITH A KNIFE, JENNIFER CUT OPEN) .e (DIES You remember who you are. IN AGONY) Jennifer (DIES IN AGONY) .e (CRYING i am jennifer ) Jennifer (CRYING i am jennifer ) .q Signing off... Connection closed by foreign host. {k:2}exit exit Script done on Wed Aug 26 17:28:37 1998 _____________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:10:13 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: warlox-on-bagel, pentagram, an address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Want to address Listafarians on this topic of the military. They work for us. We pay them. I would like to have a surer sense that they realize they are our employees, wouldn't you? Same goes for other government employees. They are our servants, right? What went wrong ? That we are the cattle of the Masai? Are we captive? Or aren't we? Is this why it doesn't much matter what we think or say about matters of public policy? Is this why words die around such topics? Does anybody see any way out, any way to restore the situation to its proper sets of relation, any means to reverse this reversed governance? Really? db3 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 12:25:04 +0300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fredrik Hertzberg LIT Subject: the write to a bad language MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I'm writing an article on 'the right to a bad language' - trying to connect this to various linguistic so-called disabilities (clinical & metaphorical) such as stammering, dyslexia, non-native speaking etc - used as poetic devices, used in poetics. I haven't found many very interseting texts that wd be relevant to this issue, Jakobson has been useful, so has Bernstein, Basil and Charles, and Deleuze has useful insights on stammering. But I haven't seen any texts that address the use of a bad language & that problematize the question, i.e. what IS a bad language? & how language may be misused in poetry. A lot of texts indeed talk about this indirectly but does anyone know of texts that from any angle address it directly? Fred Hertzberg Finland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 07:31:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: the write to a bad language In-Reply-To: from "Fredrik Hertzberg LIT" at Aug 27, 98 12:25:04 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This may be slightly out of your scope or off topic, but you might want to look at some discussions of black English vernacular speech: from Ralph Ellison's idea of the vernacular as symbolic action to HL Gates's The Signifying Monkey to others such as Houston Baker, & Nate Mackey - who discusses stuttering in relation to both Creeley & Monk in *Discrepant Engagement*. I think this is an interesting site for discussions of "bad language." -m. According to Fredrik Hertzberg LIT: > > I'm writing an article on 'the right to a bad language' - trying to > connect this to various linguistic so-called disabilities (clinical & > metaphorical) such as stammering, dyslexia, non-native speaking etc - > used as poetic devices, used in poetics. I haven't found many very > interseting texts that wd be relevant to this issue, Jakobson has been > useful, so has Bernstein, Basil and Charles, and Deleuze has useful > insights on stammering. But I haven't seen any texts that address the use > of a bad language & that problematize the question, i.e. what IS a bad > language? & how language may be misused in poetry. A lot of texts indeed > talk about this indirectly but does anyone know of texts that from any > angle address it directly? > > Fred Hertzberg > Finland > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 08:05:32 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: warlox-on-bagel, pentagram, an address In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 27 Aug 1998 01:10:13 -0700 from >Want to address Listafarians on this topic of the military. They work for >us. We pay them. I would like to have a surer sense that they realize they >are our employees, wouldn't you? Same goes for other government employees. >They are our servants, right? What went wrong ? That we are the cattle of >the Masai? Are we captive? Or aren't we? Is this why it doesn't much matter >what we think or say about matters of public policy? Is this why words die >around such topics? Does anybody see any way out, any way to restore the >situation to its proper sets of relation, any means to reverse this >reversed governance? Really? db3 Well, the list represents a partial rainbow of opinion, & this discussion could go on forever, so I will try to be brief & address this question re: life in general & poetry in particular. As to the 1st I don't see the point in demonizing the US military, though undoubtedly there are pressures from that direction to use the forces trained & assembled. (As there are sometimes NOT to use them.) Where was the outcry on this international list at the innocent deaths at the embassy sites. The fact is a real threat exists from enemies in Iraq, Libya, Sudan & Afghanistan which attacks without warning, against both government & civilian targets. How would you deal with it in their shoes? Of course, if you want to consider the whole government apparatus simply an instrument of evil & oppression, you can be happy with the cartoons that generates. This is not to say I support the pre-emptive strikes. So to answer your question I would say we all as citizens need to focus on the moral and legal standards and restraints that should apply to nation states with respect to the use of force, and to look for ways to apply them on a national & internat'l level. This is a challenge to act that applies to everyone, not only in response to the current crisis, but in general, and perhaps especially in the US, since as the "dominant power" maintaining the "pax" through global policy actions in relations with practically every country, the US behavior is the environment. The government that applies cold war logic of pre-emptive force at the end of the 20th century, and by announcing a "war" on terrorism immediately raises the status of terrorists to that of soldiers, seems blind. But the issue is not so simple and "pre-emptiveness" does not apply as a description of US actions alone. How DO you respond to governments or organizations claiming the right to use nerve gas & other chemical agents to kill thousands of people? Nations have a right to defend themselves. The issue is the dangers to all of us posed by US exceptionalism - the assertion of dominance using short-term pragmatic logic. War logic. Not to mention the wisdom of acting with arrogance in a region already steeped in many levels of anti-Americanism. The issue of state violence - actual & potential - is international in scope. On the poetry level: beyond saying that poetry too tries to assert itself as a mode of awakened interpretation and reflection on present realities, and that it might provide one means to oppose war in general - I don't know what else to add on that. Except that while you get friendly with Sudanese poets you might want to look into the nature & history of THAT government as well. Nevertheless, in the US, it seems the main focus of somebody troubled by the pre-emptive strikes should be to counter the enormous pressure of received opinion, spin, P.R., and so on. Polls say most Americans support the attacks. But there are many Americans who would know & care more & differently if the forum for such public debate on these issues was created. How would poets help bring that about? I think a forum on peacemaking is needed in this world, not just a forum for polarized antagonisms. - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:15:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: warlox-on-bagel, pentagram, an address In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Want to address Listafarians on this topic of the military. They work for >us. We pay them. I would like to have a surer sense that they realize they >are our employees, wouldn't you? Same goes for other government employees. >They are our servants, right? What went wrong ? That we are the cattle of >the Masai? Are we captive? Or aren't we? Is this why it doesn't much matter >what we think or say about matters of public policy? Is this why words die >around such topics? Does anybody see any way out, any way to restore the >situation to its proper sets of relation, any means to reverse this >reversed governance? Really? db3 Hi, David. I always thought the nature of the servant-master relationship was mutual captivity. (See P.G. Wodehouse.) But yes, this is an anguishing situation, and that it seems to have been publicly dropped (NPR had a piece on a recording of tree frogs today) is incomprehensible. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:27:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Written to Avoid Obsessing about Women MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, Jaques: The impulse to polarize is academic, and by that I mean merely academic. My first response to your post would be a question: what do you gain by distinguishing between poets you imagine attend to one poet, versus poets you imagine attend to another? It's odd to think that everyone's options might be limited to, or limited by, choosing a precursor poet, or one area of one's precursor's material, & writing out of that space, the late twentieth century filled with Pierre Menards churning out various Quixotes, poetry reduced to juried dog show, poets as purebreds, poems spermal in function. Are you a terrier, a Doberman or a golden retriever? Silliman has a line somewhere in the Alphabet about the Actualists, & their purported failure to "give birth" ? i.e., to inspire future legions of poets, as though this were why, after all, we were writing, some sublimated desire to procreate. It's not why I write. I'd be surprised, even slightly horrified to discover it was why the poets & writers that mean anything to me wrote. To colonize the future? You grant the Talisman anthology an authority I find myself unable to do ? it not seeming, to me, comprehensive. It's ultimately a magazine with an ISBN number. The poets of "my generation" (gag me, please) whose work means the most to me, well, a few are included, but most not. Of only one of them not included could you make the mistake of imagining their dutiful, monogamous attendance to, say, O'Hara: Ange Mlinko ? though, knowing something of her reading habits, I'd say there's been equal attendance to Bernadette Mayer and, believe it or not, Gerald Burns. But, many many others, too. And, believe me, Jaques, if this were all her work had to offer, I wouldn't bother reading it. What about Eric Malone? How does his series of books from early 97 (Magic Marker Poems; A Backwards Book; etc.) fit in to a schema that pitches Ashbery against O'Hara against (all of?) Langpo? Is Brenda Iijima's anachronistically titled Person(a) an O'Hara because it's personal or an Ashbery because it's "intellectual" or mo Langpo cuz the poems, despite their emotional weight, seem (looked at purely formally) driven by a deep immersion in the words as they surface into the poem? (Forgive the dopey metaphor.) Wendy Kramer's collages include both words and pictures and when she reads them in public she "reads" the pictures, too ? how does this figure into a polarized (tripartized? bleah, bleah, bleah, ptoooiee!) schema? Is she a concrete poet, or the opposite of a concrete poet? Does it matter? How account for Rachel Levitsky's poems of desire, wanderlust, anti-stasis ? yeah, sure, she's done "read-thru"s of Ashbery (a poem written while reading Ashbery's work), and that's sure to influence her, even elsewhere, but ? really? En todos? Joel Kuzsai's Oz poems ? quickly now, whose ghost wrote 'em: O'Hara's or Ashbery's? I don't know quite how to account, using any schema, for Don David's (not to be confused with Dan Davidson) bizarre sex poems ? do you? Jeff Conant's writing, a good portion of what I've seen anyway, seems to come out of a profound dismay with his country/culture of origin. I mean, his distaste for it is palpable, his work sometimes burns with a kind of intensity, a particular kind I don't see much in O'Hara, Ashbery or any Language Writer I remember reading. George Albon's very formalized work equally attends to a kind of despair with the culture, and though I know Ashbery was a big hero of his, very little of his writing resembles Ashbery's. Is Bob Harrison's tendency toward abstraction Ashberyian or is the emotional space the writing comes out of O'Haraesque? Into what hole should we peg Sheila E. Murphy? Laurie Price? Nada Gordon? Wherefrom arrives Christian Haye's ultimate dissatisfaction with poetry's inability to seep outward, into the world, in a way he'd prior imagined it might? And so on, blah blah blah. But, to respond within the terms (& names) of your post: Davis, Luoma, Brown & Burger are hardly writing "less acceptable" work than Anderson, Stroffolino or Schultz. Luoma reads (his prose, at least) more like Hemingway, Brautigan or Carver (Lished Carver?) than O'Hara, to me. I can imagine no writing more acceptable by mainstream standards. Brown's writing is equally pared down, simple, lyrical, evocative. I see much more of an attendance to Niedecker or Dickinson than O'Hara. To the extent she is "writing out of" any of these poets (& I would never assume this was why she writes), the impulse seems not at all at significant odds with the mainstream. I can imagine her reading on MTV to a very appreciative audience. & I don't think, having posed for Glamour ("Poetry is Hot!"), she'd consider that an insult. Anyway, it's not meant as one. Davis is the only one you mention who, okay, does seem, at least through the window of Talisman, influenced by O'Hara, even by "Second Avenue" O'Hara (as though there might be two, or three, or four O'Hara's, polarized against themselves). But take a look at his new "train" poem. O'Hara never wrote that flatly. Or, if & when he did, he was probably making a point about flatness moreso than writing out of that situation. Influence is unavoidable. But does that mean that E, F, G and H have been influenced by A, B, C and D, respectively? And, in the terms of your post, TOTALLY? Stroffolino has been influenced by O'Hara as much as Ashbery, by Shakespeare as much as O'Hara, by Corso as much as Shakespeare, by Riding as much as Corso, by Baraka as much as Riding, etc. ? & I think he'd be disappointed, as would anyone, to see his writing read solely through Ashbery; or, more to the point, through an academic filter pitching Ashbery against O'Hara. This is someone who, when I ask advice ("Hey, should I try calling Carolina again? Maybe she's just too shy to call me back!") recites passages from Ovid, Shakespeare or Dylan. (His three most-quoted, at least in advice to his roommate. Well, okay, last night it was the Stylistics.) For Chris as for myself as for anyone I'd ever bother to continue reading, the poets we read, love, attend to, including ourselves, exist for us outside of mere art-historical time. Yours, Gary ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:54:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: daniel bouchard Subject: Re: warlox-on-bagel, pentagram, an address Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Henry, What do you mean by "demonizing" in terms of the US military? "Demonizing" is the paving machine towards a justified attack. Saddam Hussein, Khodafi, Khomeni, Arafat (in the past), Noriega (after the US military dropped him from the payroll): these are people who have been demonized through the sources from which we all get our information about the world. I don=92t resist their demonizations (or, refute the crimes they=92ve committed); but= I struggle against the omission of their counterparts from the demon list. This would include heads of state on friendly terms with the US: Latin American dictators, Suharto (altho when a change was called for, his crimes suddenly became interesting to the US press), and so on=85 the list is long.= =20 How did the demons in the first list come to power? Were they once allies to the US, or were/are their enemies? Or, to come to the point: are the "real threats that exist from enemies in Iraq, Libya, Sudan & Afghanistan," which you cite, created in a vacuum? You ask "How DO you respond to governments or organizations claiming the right to use nerve gas & other chemical agents to kill thousands of people?" What=92s the difference between killing them with gas and agents, and killing them without gas and agents? What it amounts to is that the US claims to set policy in regions far and wide outside the US. And the US claims the right to kill those who oppose those policies (e.g. The Gulf War).=20 I hate terrorists. All terrorists. But because terrorist acts were committed against "my country," I do not wish to sanction my country to commit terrorist acts in retaliation. After all, what did we do in Afghanistan and Sudan but "attack without warning?" That the US has claimed war on an individual man and his unhappy band of armed men makes little difference. We got no thank-yous from either country. Like the "war" on drugs, we can now go after (if not bomb) any "network" of thugs if evidence of their links to terrorism is compelling enough. What I hate most is the hypocrisy and lies that flow out of Washington.=20 If you mean by "demonizing" of the US military, a cry of outrage against the pre-emptive strikes (or similar actions) then I strongly disagree with you. The military, the Pentagon, indeed the entire government, may be made up of ordinary people with ordinary concerns, but once an order is given, a course of action decided upon (whether it=92s barring medicine from entering= post-war Iraq or firing missiles against a terrorist "network") then none of that means much of anything.=20 What is a terrorist? Someone who creates terror=97violence against people, civilians and military. Who do Afghanistans and Sudanese consider to be terrorists? Who do Palestinians consider to be terrorists?=20 What if a terrorist "network" were discovered in Germany or Poland or Japan or India and there was "compelling" evidence that this group had attacked an American embassy? How quick would the US be to bomb them with missiles? Or would we find another way? One might say the governments there may be friendly to a US investigation and hunt for perpetrators, but what real or significant recourse does either Sudan or Afghanistan have against the missile attacks? Time and again, the US proves to the world it will not tolerate X or Y by attacking countries that cannot really fight back=97look= at Panama. How many people read in the papers about the residential neighborhoods that were decimated? We killed thousands of people, and lost 23 American personnel. Before Iraq we were all told that Saddam was a general on par with Hannibal and his army were seasoned veterans fighting the holy war, and omigod lookout. How many US military personnel were killed in that war? 147. How many Iraqi dead? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Actually the number continues to rise. You cite the need for nations to adhere to "moral and legal standards and restraints" when it comes to violence. I don=92t disagree with you. There= are in fact many organizations whose purpose is exactly this. But who has ever heard of them or their efforts? And what organization is going to have the power to enforce it against a military strength like the US, especially when, as Jesse Helms points out, "America=92s differences end at the water= =92s edge."=20 Look how the UN inspires conspiracy-plots among assorted American right-wingers. "Her wants to grab Chicago=85 Him big bureaucracy running our fillingstations." (Same idea, different context.) So even to express outrage at US military action is indeed a big step=85 to do so in this country makes one so far "left" and so far out of the mainstream that anything you say is quite implausible; not to be taken seriously. You should see the looks (or non-looks) that groups who convene to protest such actions as the recent "pre-emptive" strikes get at the Park Street subway stop in downtown Boston. It=92s like running for president if you=92re not a) Democrat or Republican= or b) a millionaire: you=92re a nut.=20 As for poetry:=20 "All I have is a voice To undo the folded lie, The romantic lie in the brain Of the sensual man-in-the-street=20 And the lie of Authority Whose buildings grope the sky:=20 There is no such thing as the State=20 And no one exists alone; Hunger allows no choice To the citizen or the police; We must love one another or die." --Auden, from "September 1, 1939"=20 daniel bouchard <<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Bouchard =09 The MIT Press Journals =09 Five Cambridge Center =09 Cambridge, MA 02142 bouchard@mit.edu phone: 617.258.0588 fax: 617.258.5028 >>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<< ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:54:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Thompson Subject: Re: the write to a bad language Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _The Violence of Language_ by Jean-Jacques Lecercle [Routledge 1990] might be of use to you. GT >I'm writing an article on 'the right to a bad language' - trying to >connect this to various linguistic so-called disabilities (clinical & >metaphorical) such as stammering, dyslexia, non-native speaking etc - >used as poetic devices, used in poetics. I haven't found many very >interseting texts that wd be relevant to this issue, Jakobson has been >useful, so has Bernstein, Basil and Charles, and Deleuze has useful >insights on stammering. But I haven't seen any texts that address the use >of a bad language & that problematize the question, i.e. what IS a bad >language? & how language may be misused in poetry. A lot of texts indeed >talk about this indirectly but does anyone know of texts that from any >angle address it directly? > >Fred Hertzberg >Finland ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Cooks run State, Have Rich Inner Lives In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I think the originator of this phrase, (Mark Weiss) meant that **many people in general** including Sears managers in some cases, do have rich inner lives. He was using the phrase to refer to the people wounded and killed in the two African anti-U.S. attacks. Those attacks didn't take place at major universities, or whatever. And i second Mark W. on this: i've known a few janitors and factory workers with rich inner lives (just horribly depauperate checking accounts!) The original (rather jaunty) post wasn't as elitist in its assumptions about richness and innerness as your approach quoted below, Jonathan. ---Mark "spartacus" Prejsnar On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > My inner life has been exceedingly impoverished of late, I hope that > doesn't make me a legitimate target for bombing. > > Seriously, though, this is a problematic concept,at best, what is a "rich" > inner life, anyway? If the unexamined life is not worth living, then do > non-reflective people become less valuable, by implication? Or else are we > denying this quality of self-examination, say, to those who work at the > pentagon, by appealing to the "banality of evil" principle? (as I have > read in several posts). Is this any better than demonizing them? What if > we can't simply condescend, intellectually, to those in the pentagon? > What if they are as self-reflective and worthy of our respect, say, as > managers at Sears? What makes us so superior to them (the Sears > managers) in the first place? > > Jonathan Mayhew > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > University of Kansas > jmayhew@ukans.edu > (785) 864-3851 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:23:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: the Pentagon's employers In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I would argue that if you think they're working for us, you are dwelling happily in Cloud-kuuukuuuLand. They work for a series of layers of political hacks, who are drawn from and who serve (exclusively) the owners of capital. Now it's possible to change this, but it is veeeery slow. But you wanna change the military adventures, (while in the meantime it's a good thing to organize against 'em directly) you gotta ultimately change who has power. You start by deepsixing the one-party system, and its pseudo-party with two right wings, the Republicrats. And yes there are ways to do this; but this ain't a socialist-strategy listserv, so 'nuff said. Mark "Che" Prejsnar On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, david bromige wrote: > Want to address Listafarians on this topic of the military. They work for > us. We pay them. I would like to have a surer sense that they realize they > are our employees, wouldn't you? Same goes for other government employees. > They are our servants, right? What went wrong ? That we are the cattle of > the Masai? Are we captive? Or aren't we? Is this why it doesn't much matter > what we think or say about matters of public policy? Is this why words die > around such topics? Does anybody see any way out, any way to restore the > situation to its proper sets of relation, any means to reverse this > reversed governance? Really? db3 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:33:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: Cooks run State, Have Rich Inner Lives Comments: To: mprejsn@law.emory.edu In-Reply-To: from "Mark Prejsnar" at Aug 27, 98 10:56:53 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A quick defense of myself: I didn't mean to imply that Sears managers *in general* had no rich inner life (else a listmember e-mail to say, hey, my dad is a sears manager...) - only that beautifully hypothetical *"right-wing-asshole-Sears-managers"* had no rich inner-life, and, hypothetically speaking, I would stand by this. :) -m. According to Mark Prejsnar: > > I think the originator of this phrase, (Mark Weiss) meant that **many > people in general** including Sears managers in some cases, do have rich > inner lives. He was using the phrase to refer to the people wounded and > killed in the two African anti-U.S. attacks. > > Those attacks didn't take place at major universities, or whatever. > > And i second Mark W. on this: i've known a few janitors and factory > workers with rich inner lives (just horribly depauperate checking > accounts!) > > The original (rather jaunty) post wasn't as elitist in its assumptions > about richness and innerness as your approach quoted below, Jonathan. > > ---Mark "spartacus" Prejsnar > > > > On Wed, 26 Aug 1998, MAYHEW wrote: > > > My inner life has been exceedingly impoverished of late, I hope that > > doesn't make me a legitimate target for bombing. > > > > Seriously, though, this is a problematic concept,at best, what is a "rich" > > inner life, anyway? If the unexamined life is not worth living, then do > > non-reflective people become less valuable, by implication? Or else are we > > denying this quality of self-examination, say, to those who work at the > > pentagon, by appealing to the "banality of evil" principle? (as I have > > read in several posts). Is this any better than demonizing them? What if > > we can't simply condescend, intellectually, to those in the pentagon? > > What if they are as self-reflective and worthy of our respect, say, as > > managers at Sears? What makes us so superior to them (the Sears > > managers) in the first place? > > > > Jonathan Mayhew > > Department of Spanish and Portuguese > > University of Kansas > > jmayhew@ukans.edu > > (785) 864-3851 > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:30:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: warlox-on-bagel, pentagram, an address In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:54:40 -0400 from Dan, I respect your position & am very close to it. It is good to be reminded about Panama & other shameful military actions. Where I disagree is the argument that the US govt-military is a monolithic & constant force for evil in the world & that forums for opposition to state violence in general are ineffectual & meaningless & therefore all we can do is crank up the left-hysteria rhetoric which really does "demonize" the US & the US military. This to me is unrealistic & even unfair in a world-system that also includes Russia, China, Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine, Israel, Libya... various countries I would hesitate to characterize as innocent victims or harmless nonviolent governments. As I tried to suggest, the challenge should be to get at the roots of international justice & "peace law" rather than jack up the rhetoric. Righteous indignation and blind self-righteousness - patriotism & jingoism... protest may be a moral imperative, but I was responding to D. Bromige's open question about HOW to proceed. No more talk from me. - Henry G. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 10:08:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bradford J Senning Subject: Re: Cooks run State, Have Rich Inner Lives Comments: To: Michael Magee In-Reply-To: <199808271533.LAA56668@dept.english.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, Michael Magee wrote: > A quick defense of myself: I didn't mean to imply that Sears managers *in > general* had no rich inner life (else a listmember e-mail to say, hey, my > dad is a sears manager...) - only that beautifully hypothetical > *"right-wing-asshole-Sears-managers"* had no rich inner-life, and, > hypothetically speaking, I would stand by this. :) -m. > Hey, *I* used to be a Sears manager. You don't want to know what they say about hypothetical academics, especially when your thinking of quitting your job in order to become one. Bradford Senning ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:19:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Brainwashed Sudanese poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Ah, that great, long letter from Dan Bouchard, to whom I take my hat off on this issue. Henry, just a quick point: Your caution that the nature of the Sudanese government be checked into before anyone enters (naively, I guess) into contact with Sudanese poets is uncharacteristically silly on your part. Who ever said anything about Sudan's government as noble entity? And why do you seem to assume that Sudanese poets would not be among the first to educate us on the repressive aspects of their government? Hoo boy, Henry! Item 1: There is a letter in today's NY T'imes that asks a wonderfully simple question: The writer points out that the U.S. govt. has been harboring terrorists from various countries for years, allowing them to operate with de facto impunity from U.S. soil (the most obvious example being Cuban "freedom fighters" who have blown-up civilian airliners in mid-flight, carried out germ-warfare attacks on Cuban agriculture, bombed buildings in Havana, and so on. Given the righteous U.S argument about pre-emptive self-defense, is not the Cuban government now more than justified to retaliate against Little Havana targets in Miami? Hmmm... Item 2: There is mounting evidence (see also today's NY Times) that this "bin Laden VX factory" was nothing more than an unguarded pharmaceutical factory producing commercial drugs. And let's check-out the Sudan poetry web-sites put up by Ramez Ejaz Qureshi. Perhaps a statement opposing the missle strike signed jointly by American and Sudanese poets? Anyone think this might be a good idea if it's feasible? Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:21:18 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:19:21 -0500 from On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:19:21 -0500 KENT JOHNSON said: >off on this issue. Henry, just a quick point: Your caution that the >nature of the Sudanese government be checked into before anyone >enters (naively, I guess) into contact with Sudanese poets is >uncharacteristically silly on your part. Who ever said anything >about Sudan's government as noble entity? And why do you seem to >assume that Sudanese poets would not be among the first to educate us >on the repressive aspects of their government? Hoo boy, Henry! I resent that, Kent. I'm ALWAYS silly. But hey. I didn't say check into the history of Sudan BEFORE you check the poets. I said ALONG WITH. You might also check the long silly history of US literary-cultural enthusiasms for things foreign & exciting (say, 30s enthusiasms for official stalinist artists), all in a good cause... - Henry ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:37:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: joel lewis Subject: f.y.i. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" * The latest British company to hire a poet-in-residence is the London Zoo. According to director-general Richard Burge, the poet's jobs will include writing guides in rhyme for visitors and "help[ing] to interpret the lives of the animals." News of the Weird reported earlier this year that the large department store Marks & Spencer had hired a poet two days a week, and since then, the British Broadcasting Corporation and a professional soccer team have hired poets (although the soccer team is still in last place in the Premier League). ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 11:59:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Reiner Subject: new WITZ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Ron Silliman wrote: >I want to call attention to Peter Quartermain's wonderful piece on Bruce Andrews' work (esp. _Lip Service_) in the current issue of _Witz._ It's the best piece I've read on Bruce's work and makes me hungry for the forthcoming _Aerial_ on Mr. A. > ---------- Now here's a chance to see for yourself... WITZ VOLUME SIX, NUMBER 2 SUMMER 1998 Peter Quartermain on Bruce Andrews's _Lip Service_: "Reading the poem is a bit like listening in on the powder-room of a somewhat sleazy night club in the down-market end of town on a big night out, the sort of coversation, peppered with smutty jokes, obscenity, and scorn for human tenderness and individuality, with boastfulness and derision about sexual performance and the human body, more traditionally or conventionally associated with men in country-club locker rooms than with woman as traditionally viewed in public discorse, as a sexual object or as Beloved...." Juliana Spahr on Nick Piombino's _Light Street_: "What interests me about Piombino's work is his emphasis on how language can heal, rather than how our world is fractured. I read his work as a primer that says here we are post-Sassure, post-Vietnam, now how do we keep from going crazy...." Also featuring Guy Bennett on Liz Waldner, Standard Schaefer on Martha Ronk, and Brian Lucas on Norma Cole. $4 (check payable to Christopher Reiner) from Witz P.O. Box 40012 Studio City, California 91614 Witz Archives at the Electronic Poetry Center: http://www.wings.buffalo/epc/ezines/witz Witz on the Web http://www.litpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:25:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On August 27, Henry Gould wrote: >I resent that, Kent. I'm ALWAYS silly. But hey. I didn't say check >into the history of Sudan BEFORE you check the poets. I said ALONG >WITH. You might also check the long silly history of US >literary-cultural enthusiasms for things foreign and exciting (say, >30's enthusiasms for official stalinist artists) Oh, OK Henry. I'll be sure to inform myself that Sudan is a repressive police state WHILE I try to dialogue with some poets there. That way I won't become confused and misled. And I'll be sure to be wearing my desert turban WHILE I do this, because this will make it more exciting. (By the way, it sure is funny hearing you scolding away about US poets' foreign enthusiasms. Hoo boy!) Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:39:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Judy Roitman Subject: Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Ah, that great, long letter from Dan Bouchard, to whom I take my hat >off on this issue. Henry, just a quick point: Your caution that the >nature of the Sudanese government be checked into before anyone >enters (naively, I guess) into contact with Sudanese poets is >uncharacteristically silly on your part. Who ever said anything >about Sudan's government as noble entity? And why do you seem to >assume that Sudanese poets would not be among the first to educate us >on the repressive aspects of their government? Can't speak for Henry, but speaking for myself --- maybe because it could get them killed? Or at least jailed & tortured? Any notion that people necessarily can speak freely is more than a little naive. I remember driving through then-East Berlin in a car with windows closed with a then-East German colleague who would not talk about anything remotely political, so fearful was he of the government. Bad as EG was back then (and it was pretty terrible) it was not as bad as many places today. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Judy Roitman | "Whoppers Whoppers Whoppers! Math, University of Kansas | memory fails Lawrence, KS 66045 | these are the days." 785-864-4630 | fax: 785-864-5255 | Larry Eigner, 1927-1996 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note new area code ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.math.ukans.edu/~roitman/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:36:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry Subject: Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets In-Reply-To: Message of Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:25:11 -0500 from On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:25:11 -0500 KENT JOHNSON said: > >Oh, OK Henry. I'll be sure to inform myself that Sudan is a >repressive police state WHILE I try to dialogue with some poets >there. That way I won't become confused and misled. And I'll be sure >to be wearing my desert turban WHILE I do this, because this will >make it more exciting. Maybe you could kill 2 birds with one stone by making prison the first stop on your itinerary. - Henry When the goldfinch in the airy pastry Suddenly, heartfully begins to tremble, The scholarly cloak is peppered with spite, And the skullcap is blackened. The little pole and board spread slander, So does the cage with its hundred spokes, And everything in the world is inside out And there is a forest Salamanca For disobedient, clever birds. - Mandelstam, VORONEZH NOTEBOOKS (during his last months in exile, Mandelstam began to identify with a medieval Spanish-Jewish poet, Luis de Leon, of the Univ. of Salamanca, who composed a sonnet a day while imprisoned by the Inquisition.) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:44:25 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I tried one of the URLs, which said the page didn't exist. I think a joint statement would be a good idea - especially in light of the new information re: the chemical weapons factory. Anyway, you might want to check the URLs and repost? Perhaps there were errors? Two other points - where there is of course a category "Sudanese poets" who would or could make such a joint statement - and I worry always about naivete; when I reread Kristeva On Chinese Women, for example... But too often we're manipulated by events here as well - in both the Gulf War, and now this, the control of information has reached unprecedented heights - we literally do not know who is acting in our name, and what they are doing. So a statement or at least the gesture of moving towards a state- ment, is at least a statement itself, that we can speak - that the fact that we don't know all the facts is itself problematic. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 15:46:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David W. McFadden" Subject: Re: Ashbery Review Comments: To: Jubeem@AOL.COM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jubeem@AOL.COM writes: >I confess too having a very formalist opinion on the matter of over- >production. Who cares about the degree of "inspiration" or whatever >romantic >formulation of that sort behind a poem as long as the poem itself stands >on >its own? You have to practise every day. Everybody knows that. But every now and then you have to change the sheets. dwm "Fame, recognition - all that kind of thing is a phenomenon of rather dubious shape which death alone places in true perspective." - Vladimir Nabokov. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:57:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT On Aug. 27, Judy Roitman wrote: >Can't speak for Henry, but speaking for myself---maybe because it >could get them killed? Or at least jailed & tortured? Certainly true, Judy. I am thinking, actually, that there may be poets and intellectuals from the Sudan living abroad or in forcible exile, and that these may be the most likely to have access to the WWW. But I am not certain about this. Still, the wonderful NY Times article I mentioned yesterday on the Islamic scholar from Khartoum did seem to point to a willingness by at least some intellectuals inside Sudan to speak out in opposition to their govt's policies. In fact, if I can borrow your phrase, history shows that it is more than a little naive to think that repression leads to intimidated silence across the board. Kent ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:03:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: workin' for the man (was warlox-on-bagel) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear me Mark, you have only to read my post to become aware that I know what the current situation is, i.e., one that renders the statement "they work for us" on the face of it absurd. But I saw value in asserting the truth : we pay them; they serve us. This truth is honored, like they say, in the breach not the observance, but it had better remain the truth, for else the lies we live among will take its place. I find your sketch for changing the present and for releasing us from Babylonian captivity, well, sketchy. What might be a first step? Could you admit it if you thought that there could be none? David ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:53:58 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dbkk@SIRIUS.COM Subject: poetry on the web Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" We're launching a new round of fine-tuning the Small Press Traffic website: http://www.sptraffic.org The September/October schedule is up, if any of you are curious. Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out the best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between words, etc. One possibility that's been considered is making a gif file out of a poem. Since we're trying to keep the site simple for people without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal solution. Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 13:56:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: brainwashed sudanese poet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I am a Brainwashed Sudanese Poet. I have been taught my country can be right or wrong, I have learned give liberty lip-service or I could be killed. In my youth I praised the beauty to the skies which then seemed safe enough. This was politically incorrect some decades later. In the finest academies our taxes could bear I had my brains washed. As economy downturned they had to make do with the laundromat. I make new start over here. English is most difficult language. For politicians. Its plethora of synonyms means the hypocrite will always be disclosed many thanks to his word-choice. I regret to have lost friends in latest international incident. Death seems so final under present conditions of science. Short-sighted of me. They had been very much so until final seconds. Alive, I mean. Thanks to brainwashing the first person is used or misused very much when I write. This is because hmm, well . . . I do not want lumping together is category provided. Mud hut cell "room for one more" like hell. Soon if spared to I shall do parody of Brainwashed Yankee Poet in broken Sudanese, with grammar-flaws for joke. I shall begin, then I shall go on otherwise to stop and alter course prove me unmanly. But at the bottom all poets are sibling rivals, common under the dirt. And next to them, all people living in the world I imagine. Brainwashed Limey Poet Kipling used term "fuzzy-wuzzy" while wogs begin at Calais. I have given away all my money. My cogitations turn uncontinuously. I like Brainwashed Gallic Poet Rimbaud who say "My Romantic Brethren" then lose his inventory to his exploitees. With my looks I could have been one of these. Show me a poet who is not brainwashed and in return I show you a tabula rasa. I love the house I was born in as I love the desert rats who brought me up. I am American too for my deep love of liberty brands and stamps me one. My feel of justice tortures my transatlantic soul excuse the term. Hardly more than a child myself I watched the children play to see justice is born in the brainwashed bone. I fell asleep. In the dream I am able to meet Evil. He look just terrible, like me or you in a rage. Otherwise I sit at coffeeshop and watch veils. Scribble, scribble. Not much good can come of that, my illiterate companions show their teeth. Some are all I have, except Wednesdays. Power, billions of money, slaves. These count. I was glad when the Crude missiles missed me. Brainwashed Sudanese Poets don't grow on trees. We are the consolation of our race which is after all the human. But it is intended for disconsolation as Power's ultimate insult to look at it and nowhere else. Kill the motherfuckahs or it's your ass. An American wrote on one of our walls. Give me some money so I forget to say more. In America there are blades of grass. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:56:53 -0400 Reply-To: Mark Prejsnar Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Workin' for the workin' class In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 27 Aug 1998, david bromige wrote: > > I find your sketch for changing the present and for releasing us from > Babylonian captivity, well, sketchy. What might be a first step? Could you > admit it if you thought that there could be none? David > Actually, i've said much of it here before--and thus my feeling that it could be inappropriate, as it is a matter of socialist strategy, not poetics. Basically, we have to build the left through both electoral and other forms. The best approach in recent years is a form of mild social democracy, which (in my experience) is often quite effective in reaching a wide range of working people, and connecting up and giving impetus to things they already feel about the existing political fiasco. This form of mild social democracy is embodied currently in the Labor Party, the New Party, and in a coalition of Green, socialist and labor parties called the Independent Progressive Politics Network. I work with all these projects as much as i can. The idea is to reach the huge majority of adults who don't vote (which has been growing since 1945) because they know the Republicrat machine is agin 'em, and not for 'em. There needs to be greater unity. In fact most of the formations i've mentioned should work on merger, but won't be doing so in the next couple of years, fer sure. See, there are plenty of "first steps." Why, the longest journey begins with one, i'm told.... in solidarity if not in step, mark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:54:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Piuma Subject: Re: poetry on the web In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:53 PM 8/27/98 -0700, you wrote: >Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out the >best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between >words, etc. One possibility that's been considered is making a gif file >out of a poem. Since we're trying to keep the site simple for people >without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal solution. >Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would be >greatly appreciated. Well, there is the   code (IIRC) which will put a space in the text. Of course, since you can't be certain of which font the browser is using, you can't be certain that the text will line up properly. Another possibility is putting the text in
 tags. That will make the
text appear in a monospaced font, which might be kind of ugly, but you can
maintain exactly the indentations you want and have them be the same on all
browsers.

The first solution is better if you need the text to be indented regularly
(every indented line can have 5   in front of it); the second is
better for more complicated sets of indentations.

--
Chris Piuma, etc.
flim: a free page: http://www.brainlink.com/~cafard/flim/index.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 18:04:35 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Jacques Debrot 
Subject:      Re: Ashbery/Obsessing
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Gary Sullivan, in his response to an earlier post of mine, makes many
intelligent observations, some critical, about my reading of the recent N(A)P
anthology.  He writes:  "The impulse to polarize is academic, and by that I
mean merely academic. My first response to your post would be a question: what
do you gain by distinguishing between poets you imagine attend to one poet,
versus poets you imagine attend to another?"  I think the polarity I described
in my post was already initially complicated by the fact that I identified its
2 elements in examples taken solely from work of Ashbery's cited in the _New
Criterion_ review -- the inference can then easily be drawn that if the
O'Haraesque surreal exists in Ashbery, it may certainly be present in, say,
Stroffolino's poetry also.  However, not only do I not mean, as Gary says I
do, to "pitch Ashbery against O'Hara" but in fact think  it would be a mistake
to position  either/or both of them "against . . . Langpo."   _The Tennis
Court Oath_, after all, is for Langpo, if it can be said to have one -- its
most precursive text.  (In fact Shoptaw, in his Ashbery book, shows how, in
O'Hara's brief poem series, _Little Poems for the Admirers of Ashbery's
"Europe'_, Ashbery's influence leads O'Hara to write, stylistically, quite
persuasive Language poetry.)  In any case, it wasn't from an "academic"
perspective that I framed my remarks but, instead, as a poet -- that is, I am
interested to know how it might be "possible" to write poems informed by
Langpo when, in its aftermath, the very question of writing poetry at all has
been problematized -- inasmuch, as Langpo --to recapitulate remarks I made
earlier -- effectively challenges the very category "literature."   Still,
instead of seeing generational influence from the entirely negative
perspective that Gary's post seems to suggest, I prefer to regard influence in
a *collaborative* sense, NOT "Pierre Menards churning out various Quixotes,
poetry reduced to juried dog show, poets as purebreds, poems spermal in
function" [terrific & horrifying image Gary!], but -- oppositely -- as an
undoing of social & psychic double binds, one that makes us aware of the
process of writing itself & its context while at the same time expropriating
myths of origin & authenticity.  The crucial question for me then is not, "is
it original?" but "is it interesting?" (a question which would subsume others
as well such as: is it reactionary? illegitimate? incredible?).  In the N(A)P
it struck me that many of the poets represented there had attempted to clear a
space for their writing by *collaborating* with either Ashbery's more
meditiative poetry or with the O'Hara of "2nd Ave," or   "Biotherm."  While I
didn't at all mean to rule out other influences, or a confluence of these
influences, these 2 seemed, to me, to be dominant.  In fact I think I prefered
the O'Haraesque precisely for the reason that it seems more capacious, more
susceptible to "contamination" from other poetics.  (Of course this polarity
does not really begin to account for the variousness of the present scene --
for instance I found the poems chosen for _Moving Borders_ less assimilable to
a heurmeneutic &, partly for this reason, more successful.) As for the
"authority" of the N(A)P, it seems, I agree, conceived of very much like a
magazine, but the "semiotics" of the anthology form -- no matter how
strenuously the traditionalist understanding of the anthology is depreciated
by the editors -- make it appear inevitably to reach for a greater "weight" --
not to mention the practical consequences of its wider distribution.
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:25:32 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Mark Weiss 
Subject:      Re: Brainwashed Sudanese poets
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Look, if we have to have this discussion on the list let's just avoid spin.
Today's Times article about the chemical trace found at the Sudanese
factory says that it's unlikely, but remotely possible, that the compound
in question could have commercial uses, although none of the sources quoted
knows of any current such uses. The Islamic scholar, who sounds like a very
nice man, thinks that the US, rather than treating the Sudan as a pariah
state, should reward it by acknowledging its very few anti-terrorist
gestures, among them the ouster of bin Laden so that he could do business
elsewhere. He also suggests that rather than send missiles the US should
stage an Entebbe-style military raid on Afghanistan to kidnap bin Laden.
I'm not sure that either action would win us a lot of friends. Let's
remember, on the subject of US reward for good behavior, that Sudan is not
too highly regarded in sub-Saharan Africa, perhaps because it has been
slaughtering hundreds of thousands of its non-muslim, non-arab sub-Saharan
citizens for years. Sudan itself is perhaps the worst artifact of bad
colonial map-drawing--there are almost no cultural affinities and no
traditional ties uniting its two parts. And on the matter of kidnapping, if
Afghanistan considers the missiles a violation of sovereignty it's not hard
to predict what they'd say about a military force on their soil.

If we're going to cite the Times, by the way, it reports that in an
apparent attempt to nudge policy a bit out of its current groove the
Justice Dept. has indicted a bunch of well-placed Cuban exiles for plotting
to assassinate Castro. Maybe the monolith is developing a few facets.

Why, given the current paucity of information, do we as citizens have to
decide the issue faster than a speeding sound-bite? Why, more to the point,
absent sufficient knowledge, do we have to arrive at an opinion by the
application of formulaic political theory? Especially in this crowd, which
tends to be hostile to formulas in most other areas?

By the way, the one suggested Sudan poet site that I was able to reach is a
list of authors with descriptions of their careers and some blurbs, but no
texts. Of the only three in English, one writer is English born, bred,
credentialed and resident, of a Sudanese father and an English mother. He
does apparently write about Sudanese politics. Another is sub-Saharan. The
third I believe lives in exile. All are primarily novelists, although one
is said to write poetry as well.

At 02:57 PM 8/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Aug. 27, Judy Roitman wrote:
>
>>Can't speak for Henry, but speaking for myself---maybe because it
>>could get them killed? Or at least jailed & tortured?
>
>Certainly true, Judy. I am thinking, actually, that there may be
>poets and intellectuals from the Sudan living abroad or in forcible
>exile, and that these may be the most likely to have access to the
>WWW. But I am not certain about this.
>
>Still, the wonderful NY Times article I mentioned yesterday on the
>Islamic scholar from Khartoum did seem to point to a willingness by
>at least some intellectuals inside Sudan to speak out in opposition
>to their govt's policies. In fact, if I can borrow your phrase,
>history shows that it is more than a little naive to think that
>repression leads to intimidated silence across the board.
>
>Kent
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 21:21:01 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Thomas Bell 
Organization: @Home Network
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If indentation and placement are crucial (which theey are) you could
also look at some of the things vispoets have done, e.g., make the poem
an image and treat it as such.

tom bell

Chris Piuma wrote:
>
> At 01:53 PM 8/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out the
> >best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between
> >words, etc.  One possibility that's been considered is making a gif file
> >out of a poem.  Since we're trying to keep the site simple for people
> >without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal solution.
> >Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would be
> >greatly appreciated.
>
> Well, there is the   code (IIRC) which will put a space in the text.
> Of course, since you can't be certain of which font the browser is using,
> you can't be certain that the text will line up properly.
>
> Another possibility is putting the text in 
 tags. That will make the
> text appear in a monospaced font, which might be kind of ugly, but you can
> maintain exactly the indentations you want and have them be the same on all
> browsers.
>
> The first solution is better if you need the text to be indented regularly
> (every indented line can have 5   in front of it); the second is
> better for more complicated sets of indentations.
>
> --
> Chris Piuma, etc.
> flim: a free page: http://www.brainlink.com/~cafard/flim/index.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 22:27:16 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         "r. drake" 
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

the 
tag will indent a section of text, but long lines or narrow windows or large fonts on the client browser will wreck th linebreaks...
 is preferable, as far as i'm concerned, both
to maintain linebreaks and inter-word spacing--
& if you add font face tags you can override the
ugly monospaced fonts that're the default fr most
browsers...

luigi
burningpress


>We're launching a new round of fine-tuning the Small Press Traffic website:
>
>http://www.sptraffic.org
>
>The September/October schedule is up, if any of you are curious.
>
>Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out the
>best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between
>words, etc.  One possibility that's been considered is making a gif file
>out of a poem.  Since we're trying to keep the site simple for people
>without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal solution.
>Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dodie
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:22:10 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Billy Little 
Subject:      Re: Written to Avoid Obsessing about Women
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

beautiful post gary
you should do an anthology
or a mag with an isbn see if i care
but my guess would be that phil whalen has a profounder influence on this
generation whether they read ashberry more or not, ashberry/ohara dichotomy
is like downtown and uptown, very new york, very provincial or parochial,
narrow world view like new yorkers seeing thru those little slots between
the scrapers thinking the sky is thirty yards wide and half
filled by the goodyear blimp, bill bissett has had a profounder influence
that john ashberry, bp nichol
ashberry is cool but if anybody is trying to write like him..., i'd say the
real dichotomy is david antin and jerry rothenberg these are men who keep
making a difference, james koller, john cage, james schuyler, lenore kandel
and joanne kyger  the east bay south bay dichotomy they've made more of a
difference than ashberry ever will, roberts creeley and duncan there's a
dichotomy, New yorkers need to try the second note on the pennywhistle,
Michael McClure and Diane DiPrima, the coyote/wolf dichotomy when you get
right down to it Stephen Rodefer and Heathcote Williams have had more
influence on this generation than Ashberry, Ashberry/ OHara a difference,
it is to laugh, the New Yuck School eclipses the sun.

billy little
4 song st.
nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0

ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy!
Are they unhappy, by the way?

                     Alice James
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:22:14 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Billy Little 
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

>Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dodie

html is not difficult nor does it require java

billy little
4 song st.
nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0

ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy!
Are they unhappy, by the way?

                     Alice James
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 00:36:36 +0000
Reply-To:     baratier@megsinet.net
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         David Baratier 
Organization: The New Web, Inc
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Or if the text is real complicated & swirls all over I'd use a gif file,
cut it apart using Fireworks then place the setting for a 14.4 modem at
a pacing under 30 seconds.

Be well

David Baratier

>Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out
the
>best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between

>words, etc.  One possibility that's been considered is making a gif
file
>out of a poem.  Since we're trying to keep the site simple for people
>without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal
solution.
>Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would
be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dodie
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:06:52 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Jordan Davis 
Subject:      "hypothetical back to school night"
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Gary --

Great list. You got the resources, you go girl. But -- Jacques I think had
a point, that there was an ashberyan drift, and then there was something
else. Your roommate, he deny the drift? He deny the isbn? Hm. Cool, ya?

Meanwhile, there is this world that is increasingly full of amputees.
Poetry, american poetry, bleagh. What love is there if no one is an
ambulance driver in these discontinous melanging foreign wars. We go?

Kent, if you're starting a united nations, send me a cardboard box to take
donations. I think it is deeply appropriate for poets to talk wherever
they are.

With love,
Jordan
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 23:51:49 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         david bromige 
Subject:      re : written to avoid obsessing . . .
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

        Well spoken-out, Billy, Phil Whalen has been a wide, wide
influence, he proposed a poetry in which ANYTHING can enter, although not
everything could exit, like "I want this and I want that," but never mind,
he was the big W Coast organist to keep Olson in perspective, there's a
pairing for you, a polar pairing, Olson/Whalen, although not quite as
amazing as your Rodefer/Heathcote Williams. Might be healthy to try to come
up with some equally asymmerical couplings.

When is there going to be a Philip Whalen Conference/Celebration as there
was for Robin Blaser back in '95 when the world and we were young?  Robin
himself suggested just such an event.

I hope everyone on this List owns a copy of _On Bear's Head_ . They must
have printed plenty because they were remaindered everywhere.
Influence--funny word, as Dorn remarks. Upon whom? Upon the succeeding gen
of poets, of a certain bent, absolutely; not so much upon the
scholar-critics who canonize, though, as Ashbery or O'H. Under that kind of
focus, Whalen turns elusive.

Is there any place in Ash or O'H where the author confides the tonal
equivalent of "I must stop masturbating so often" ? If not, be worth asking
why . Uncool? Whalen is also pretty spacey. Thats definitely uncool in NYC,
no? Noone wants to be the airhead....well, gotta go. Have a nice day.
David.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:47:19 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Ramez Ejaz Qureshi 
Subject:      Re: the write to a bad language
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Fred Hertzberg: Julie Kristeva's Revolution in Poetic Language very much
addresses "the write to a bad language."
-RQ
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 03:30:27 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Douglas Oliver 
Subject:      Re: Sudanese poets
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

I've been following the Sudanese situation fairly closely for about five years
because of a book I'm publishing shortly, and I was very glad to see Mark
Weiss mention how the country was saddled with a disastrous colonial boundary.

There is no excuse for the million + deaths that have occurred in the civil
war together with the recent neglected famine (when thousands of lives could
have been saved if there had been a more accommodating attitude towards aid in
Khartoum.  A truce was granted only when the roads were likely to be
impassable for the military)  But Mark rightly points to the huge problem
established after General Gordon's crazy heroics in the 1880s, memorably made
more crazy by Charlton Heston with Laurence Olivier playing the Mahdi.  You
have Islam in the north, now heavily influenced by El Tourabi and the
Brotherhood movement, and Christian, animist, and various left-wing groups in
the south.  Sudan was a country hotched up as a result of fallout from the
Egyptian situation of that time.  Then you add the modern ingredients:

Everyone says these days that the retreat into Islamic integrationism in the
Arab world has been partly a response to Western capitalistic imperialism --
excellent op ed by Graham E. Fuller, former vice-chair of the National
Intelligence Council at the CIA in Los Angeles Times a day back on addressing
Muslims' real problems.  However, the article strangely made no mention of the
uninvolved Africans killed in Kenya, which is the unfortunately usual
blindness.  Once you have a fundamentalist demand in Khartoum that state and
religion be combined and that Sharia law should rule the system, there can be
no breakaway from this -- by strict belief, a jihad immediately threatens any
major attempt at this.

A theoretical answer would be for southern Sudan to secede, the ancient
colonial arrogance at map-drawing to be rectified and the borders to be
rationalised in some way.  Unfortunately, the northern lands are comparatively
poor while minerals and oil have been discovered in the south.  Politically,
secession is impossible.  Religiously, unity is an absolute requirement.
Under other circumstances, one might regret the interference of Christianity
which has been helping to divide a state already divided against itself; but
the integrationist attitude towards women, etc., makes an Islamic state of
this kind hard for any Westerner to contemplate comfortably.

This is a tremendous mess.  The missiles have flown into Sudan from another
world of politics. And they have complicated the future in some way as yet
unguessable.  I don't have much to say about them that has not already been
said.

But I'd much appreciate it if Mark Weiss could post the website where he found
those Sudanese writers.  I've never heard the names of any that have stayed
inside their own country (there must be some in exile, but I lack
information).  I find it hard to believe that any Islamic culture won't have
its crop of poets, even conformist ones.


Doug Oliver
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:09:24 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Sarah Hreha 
Subject:      Re: Response to Mark Weiss/Sudanese poets
In-Reply-To:  <58753cef.35e4d4db@aol.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

"New Sudan Online"    http://members.aol.com/NewSudan/Online.html



*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*
A. Sarah Hreha
Dept of Spanish and Portuguese
University of Minnesota
*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*~~~*

  "En un momento dado me detuve
   a fumar un cigarrillo y a pensar.
   Ese fue mi error."  Sergei Puertas
=========================================================================
Date:         Thu, 27 Aug 1998 20:07:16 +0000
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         miekal and 
Organization: Awkward Ubutronics
Subject:      like begging for quarters
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

could someone fire me Maria Damon's email address


miekal
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:24:17 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         MAYHEW 
Subject:      ascetic aesthetics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

I have become interested recently in theories of aesthetics which
emphasize the renunciation of "pleasure." So far, I have seen this theme
in Kant, Adorno,Ortega, Bourdieu (who offers a critique of this tendency),
and a few others. If anyone can steer me to other classic instances of
this phenomenon (or to discussions of it) I would appreciate it.
Basically, the problem is the following:  why do so many theories of
aesthetic "pleasure" emphasize askesis, or the renunciation of aesthetic
pleasure itself?

By the way, Fray Luis de Leon was not a medieval poet, Henry. I don't know
that he wrote a sonnet a day--his complete poetry is a fairly thin volume.
One of the heresies of which he was accused was the suggestion that it was
possible to improve upon the Latin translation of the bible (the vulgate).

Jonathan Mayhew
Department of Spanish and Portuguese
University of Kansas
jmayhew@ukans.edu
(785) 864-3851
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:45:28 -0400
Reply-To:     mcx@bellatlantic.net
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         michael corbin 
Subject:      Re: ascetic aesthetics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

MAYHEW wrote:

> I have become interested recently in theories of aesthetics which
> emphasize the renunciation of "pleasure." So far, I have seen this theme
> in Kant, Adorno,Ortega, Bourdieu (who offers a critique of this tendency),
> and a few others. If anyone can steer me to other classic instances of
> this phenomenon (or to discussions of it) I would appreciate it.
> Basically, the problem is the following:  why do so many theories of
> aesthetic "pleasure" emphasize askesis, or the renunciation of aesthetic
> pleasure itself?

Deleuze's _Masochism: Coldness and Cruelty_ as well as Sacher-Mosoch
proper may be helpful. Like with his critique of Kant, here Deleuze is
trying to locate that nexus of the 'aesthetic' 'pleasure' and
'renunciation' viz. 'itself'.

mc
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 07:07:30 PDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         james perez 
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
Content-Type: text/plain

Dodie said...
>>Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out
the best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces
between words, etc.  One possibility that's been considered is making a
gif file out of a poem.  Since we're trying to keep the site simple for
people without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal
solution. Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in
poetry would be greatly appreciated.<<

My word of warning is that you'll never make everyone happy in this
project, but you are trying to work around limitations, and I think
everyone appreciates that (who hasn't seen there work change when
printed web or paper...even if it does "help" sometimes).

You are correct that GIF-ing would be the "best" representation of the
work, but re load times there are programs called Super-GIF and
Super-JPEG (approx. names) that will crunch down the size of the files
and make them load faster...getting exact name and availability of the
software from a friend...will be back with it.

jp

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:11:18 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         ken|n|ing 
Subject:      A Border Comedy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

        List members,
        I'm looking for excerpts from Lyn Hejinian's *A Border Comedy*  --
I have the chapbook from Seeing Eye Books, the most recent Hambone, the
first issue of The Germ . . .  Any leads, please backchannel,
        Thanks, Patrick F. Durgin

                             |
                             |
k e n n i n g````````````````|``````````````````````````````````
a newsletter of contemporary |poetry,  poetics,  and  non-fiction writing
                             |418 Brown St. #10  Iowa City, IA 52245  USA
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:19:06 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         henry gould 
Subject:      Re: ascetic aesthetics
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:24:17 -0500 from
              

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 08:24:17 -0500 MAYHEW said:
>I have become interested recently in theories of aesthetics which
>emphasize the renunciation of "pleasure." So far, I have seen this theme
>in Kant, Adorno,Ortega, Bourdieu (who offers a critique of this tendency),
>and a few others. If anyone can steer me to other classic instances of
>this phenomenon (or to discussions of it) I would appreciate it.
>Basically, the problem is the following:  why do so many theories of
>aesthetic "pleasure" emphasize askesis, or the renunciation of aesthetic
>pleasure itself?

You might want to look at a book by Robin Kirkpatrick titled
Dante's Paradiso and the limitations of modern criticism : a study of style
   and poetic theory
(Cambridge UP, 1978)
- he or she argues that Dante was interested in & practiced a kind of
stylistic renunciation.  It's been a while since I read it - might be
related to Donald Davie's arguments in his book Purity of diction in
English verse.
>
>By the way, Fray Luis de Leon was not a medieval poet, Henry. I don't know
>that he wrote a sonnet a day--his complete poetry is a fairly thin volume.
>One of the heresies of which he was accused was the suggestion that it was
>possible to improve upon the Latin translation of the bible (the vulgate).
>     >Jonathan Mayhew

okay - renaissance poet.  I was reading a commentary on Nadezhda M's commentary
on what OM thought he was reading in an anthology of Spanish poetry...

"Throw out the text - but keep the marginal notes" - O. Mandelstam
- Henry G
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:34:53 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         "Loss Pequen~o Glazier" 
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

Dear Dodie & others,

The gif file idea is often the most attractive but, as Dodie mentions, less
than idea for people with lower end computing power. (The poem, in this form,
also looses its status as "text" ruling out the possibilities of text-based
search tools which becomes more of a shortcoming as the size of your site
grows.)

This matter of 'do we make the poetry text or an image' really has some
implications ie, I worry about taking from our works their status as text.
It's
like poetry becomes idealized or removed from circulation in certain senses.

I'd vote for the 
 tag idea. Also, lowering the basefont size by one
within
the 
 tags will help people who have pre-4.0 browsers and large font
settings to still see the 
 text within a one screen width.

Loss

At 01:53 PM 8/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>We're launching a new round of fine-tuning the Small Press Traffic website:
>
>http://www.sptraffic.org
>
>The September/October schedule is up, if any of you are curious.
>
>Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out the
>best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between
>words, etc.  One possibility that's been considered is making a gif file
>out of a poem.  Since we're trying to keep the site simple for people
>without a lot of computer power, that's not, perhaps, the ideal solution.
>Any suggestions on how to deal with maintaining spaces in poetry would be
>greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks.
>
>Dodie
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 05:53:56 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Douglas 
Organization: Sun Moon Books
Subject:      Re: A Border Comedy
Comments: cc: djmess@sunmoon.com
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Sun & Moon Press will be publishing the complete
A BORDER COMEDY late this year or early next.

Douglas Messerli

ken|n|ing wrote:
>
>         List members,
>         I'm looking for excerpts from Lyn Hejinian's *A Border Comedy*  --
> I have the chapbook from Seeing Eye Books, the most recent Hambone, the
> first issue of The Germ . . .  Any leads, please backchannel,
>         Thanks, Patrick F. Durgin
>
>                              |
>                              |
> k e n n i n g````````````````|``````````````````````````````````
> a newsletter of contemporary |poetry,  poetics,  and  non-fiction writing
>                              |418 Brown St. #10  Iowa City, IA 52245  USA
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:07:04 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Scott Keeney 
Subject:      the end, no. i

Announcing the first issue of  The End Review :
with poems by :

Peter Ganick - Rachel Levitsky - Rosmarie Waldrop - Gian Lombardo - Nava
Fader - William Fuller - Sheila E. Murphy - Murphy & John M. Bennett -
Steve Carll - Sotere Torregian - Jennifer Lighty - W. B. Keckler -
Lawrence Upton - William Marsh - Mark Salerno - Kristin Citrone, Nicole
Henderson, Scott Keeney & Christine Mulia - Richard Kostelanetz - Paul
Weidenhoff - Marthe Reed - Henry Gould - Steven Marks - Daniel Bouchard -
Brenda Iijima - Charles Bernstein - Kreg Wallace .

plus :  reactions/readings/reviews  by:

Steven Marks on Wendy Battin, Alan Sondheim, Joshua McKinney and Sherry
Brennan - Scott Keeney on Xue Di - Martin Spinelli on Kenneth Sherwood -
Gary Sullivan on Sheila E. Murphy - Joe Torra on Norma Cole and Michael
Gizzi .

e-mail: cento@juno.com  or write: Scott Keeney, 464 Somerville Ave #5,
Somerville MA 02143  to request a copy . check it out and send what you
can (suggested donation is $3-$5 in US or $5-$7 out) .
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:29:13 -500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Jim Rosenberg 
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
In-Reply-To:  
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

> Since much of the site is poetry reviews, we're trying to figure out the
> best way to quote poetry acurately, to maintain indents, spaces between
> words, etc.  One possibility that's been considered is making a gif file
> out of a poem.

Dodie:

The usual approach to Web pages where you want complete control over the
appearance of the text is to use PDF.  You really don't want to use GIF for
this.  The PDF approach is a bother to some people, because you have to
download the Acrobat player.  My suggestion would be to make it author's
choice:  either HTML alone, both HTML and PDF (choice available via links),
or PDF only.  This is the closest you will come to pleasing everybody.

To implement this you will need the full version of Acrobat on the machine
on which you develop the Web site.  You import the text into a word
processor or desktop publishing program and then print to PDF.  It creates a
PDF file with the same appearance as the printed version.  Unlike GIF, in a
PDF file text is still searchable, and it should load faster once the user
has the player.  It acts a lot more like text than a GIF will.

---
Jim Rosenberg                            http://www.well.com/user/jer/
     CIS: 71515,124
     WELL: jer
     Internet: jr@amanue.com
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:40:10 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Jordan Davis 
Subject:      Whalen/Berrigan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

David --

Yes, there's a New York writer who took on Whalen as an influence: Ted
Berrigan. Joel Lewis can tell the story better than I; On Bear's Head was
insanely expensive when it came out? Didn't the poets picket Harcourt Brace
Jovanovich to get them to bring the price down? It wasn't
first-printing-Ulysses expensive (didn't they charge what was at the time a
working stiff's monthly ((annual?)) wage?), but out of line.

Anyway, David, what's all this conjecture about what would be cool in New
York? I don't understand.

Jordan
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:47:21 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Chris Piuma 
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
In-Reply-To:  
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 10:29 AM 8/28/98 -500, Jim Rosenberg wrote:
>The usual approach to Web pages where you want complete control over the
>appearance of the text is to use PDF.  You really don't want to use GIF for
>this.  The PDF approach is a bother to some people, because you have to
>download the Acrobat player.  My suggestion would be to make it author's
>choice:  either HTML alone, both HTML and PDF (choice available via links),
>or PDF only.  This is the closest you will come to pleasing everybody.
>
>To implement this you will need the full version of Acrobat on the machine
>on which you develop the Web site.  You import the text into a word
>processor or desktop publishing program and then print to PDF.  It creates a
>PDF file with the same appearance as the printed version.  Unlike GIF, in a
>PDF file text is still searchable, and it should load faster once the user
>has the player.  It acts a lot more like text than a GIF will.

I hate PDF.

It is a very nice option, allowing documents to be seen exactly as the
designer formats them, but it requires a relatively powerful computer. My
home computer, one of the last of the non-Power Macintoshes, struggles with
PDF files. It takes forever for Acrobat to load, forever for the files to
be displayed on the computer, and once they're displayed they're annoying
to navigate and read.

It would be worthwhile to have the option of PDF, but you'd still want an
HTML foundation, especially if you're trying to be friendly to people who
don't have the fastest and best computers in the world. Certainly if I went
to a site and was required to look at everything through PDF, I wouldn't
bother reading it -- and there are many people using computers worse than
mine.

--
Chris Piuma, etc.
_flim: a free page_ is always looking for submissions
   http://www.brainlink.com/~cafard/flim/index.html
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:42:42 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Gary Sullivan 
Subject:      If it wasn't for spell-check I could offer you no "cantaloupe"
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Jacques, first let me apologize for dropping, twice, the "c" from your name.
Duh. [Smacks now-reddened forehead with palm.] Anyway,
influence-as-collaboration is a beautiful thought, and I don't think you,
personally, are an academic. But, I do think that the impulse to parse into
art-historical slots is, essentially, an academic impulse, whether held &
attended to by poet or professor. So, I couldn't stress enough how little, at
least for me, "in [Langpo's] aftermath, the very question of writing poetry at
all has been problematized" matters. It's not for me a thought really worthy of
my anxious energy. I argue with Fatimah about this a lot. She genuinely
believes that, in the wake of conceptual art, painting is dead. "Whatever" is
finally all I can, finally, offer her. If I were a filmmaker, the fact of Paul
Sharrits or Michael Snow wouldn't keep me from shooting, say, five minutes of
dogs barking from behind fences, straining at leashes, crapping on the street,
& so on, however much this gesture might seem closer to Marie Menken's "Go, Go,
Go," or whatever, than to Wavelength. I would, to cop Jordan's groovy
street-lingo, "go, girl." You betcha.

Ultimately, Rachel Loden's poem about "geeky Philip" emerging from the shower
made more of a lasting impression on me, as an instance of poetic expression &
intelligence than, say, Perelman's book on the "problem" of "genius." Brilliant
academics MANUFACTURE problems; less brilliant ones adhere to previously
manufactured problems. Poets ENCOUNTER them, while writing, while considering
writing; brilliant poets work through them rather than find themselves
debilitated by them. So, my question, now, Jacques, would be, is your perceived
position vis-a-vis the wake of language writing a problem you genuinely
encountered? While writing? As a consequence of writing poetry? Or was it
something you received, pitched by others as a problem? Because I don't want to
deny the possibility that this is genuinely of import to you. It's just that I
can't imagine why it would be, nor how it emerged, for you, from the actual act
or process of writing. Maybe what I would ask of you is a statement or
description, sans academic jargon & ideology such as "hermeneutic, semiotics,
precursive, contamination, problematized," of that instance when you, Jacques
Debrot, realized, for yourself, palpably insistent, that "the very question of
writing poetry has been problematized."

I wanna respond to Billy, Jordon and David, & will later today. (David, you
reminded me of Whalen's admission of beating off into a cantaloupe, I can't
remember the name of the poem, it's in Like I Say.)

In the meantime, Jacques, thank you for your reply, and really-really, I'm
interested in your response to the question I raised above, would be grateful
to have it.

Such much,

Gary
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:13:26 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         henry g 
Subject:      Re: If it wasn't for spell-check I could offer you no "cantaloupe"
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:42:42 -0400 from
              

Why does it have to be black & white, academics & poets?  seems like parsing
& polarizing & categorizing is the inevitable danger or down side of making
fine distinctions.  There's also a kind of poetry in academic detective
work.  I'm just glad somebody's actually trying to read something closely
& hearing things in it.  You're right, Gary, to be wary of this sort of
brand-naming on automatic pilot for the sake of an orderly hackademic
slummation.  But it doesn't have to be that way.  what the diff between
polarizing along Ashbery/O'Hara grid & along academic/poet grid?
(is this me talking?) (I like all the posts on this thread myself)

- Henry "the Great Worm" Gould
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:59:26 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         david bromige 
Subject:      re : whalen/berrigan
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Jordan & Listmates : Jordan handily brings up the Berrigan-Whalen
connection. and I thank him for his correction : me writing NYC when I only
meant O'Hara & Ashbery--sorry. As to _On Bear's Head_ being expensive, my
copy was priced at $3.95 in 1969, for a book of 400 pp. Compare this with
$1.45 for _Meditations in an Emergency_ (the 1967 reprint; 52 pp); $2.50
for _The Maximus Poems_ (1960, 160 pp); $2.45 for the Scribner's _The Gold
Diggers_ (1965, 158 pp); $1.95 for _Testimony_ (1965, 115 pp); $3.95 for _A
Day Book_ (1972, unpaginated, my guess is 150 pp), and it doesnt strike me
as at all outrageous. I think the _length_ of it was some cause for comment
(as for the somewhat "high-end" price). Most surprising to us out west was
that this publisher should take an interest in Whalen's work.

 I was an Acting Instructor that year, so had a tiny cushion a number of
fellow-poets lacked; I suppose I found $3.95 affordable. Then again, Robert
Duncan, who had all manner of books sent him gratis, may have given me an
extra copy.  But perhaps protests _were_ staged, and the price reduced on
their account?  David
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:09:47 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Billy Little 
Subject:      Re: the write to a bad language
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a misuse of language in poetry is it possible
do you mean the chinese in the cantos
do you mean ackers logorhea
the roaring in mcclure?
the marx in zukofsky?
the whistling in blaser?
the dialect in Berryman?
the soundings in Olson?
misuse is a misuse in your query
and "bad", is that way cool language?
in which case baaad might convey your meaning better
or is bad=naughty like Frost was, not using all the commas he was supposed
to, the editor fixed that tho.
Or is bad merely stinkeroo in which case almost all how to write pieces
articulate the aesthetics of bad language.
Or if bad is mistaken than youve got Harold Bloom and
Helen Vendler's recipes

billy little
4 song st.
nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0

ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy!
Are they unhappy, by the way?

                     Alice James
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:09:51 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Billy Little 
Subject:      thanks dave,
              for the sudanese whitman in the washing machine and obsessing...
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all i'm trying to say with the Wakoski/Oppenheimer dichotomy, the Susan
Stewart/Anne Waldman dichotomy is that even in New York there's a much
wider discussion than Harpo Bloom sees through his telescope, even in
Boston, Fanny and Susan Howe, Weiners and Corbett, Marjorie Perloff would
need a staff of  twenty writing for her full time to cover the waterfront

billy little
4 song st.
nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0

ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy!
Are they unhappy, by the way?

                     Alice James
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:42:42 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         "David W. McFadden" 
Subject:      Re: warlox-on-bagel, pentagram, an address
Comments: To: dcmb@METRO.NET
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dcmb@METRO.NET writes:
>Want to address Listafarians on this topic of the military. They work for
>us. We pay them. I would like to have a surer sense that they realize they
>are our employees, wouldn't you? Same goes for other government employees.
>They are our servants, right?  What went wrong ? That we are the cattle of
>the Masai? Are we captive? Or aren't we? Is this why it doesn't much
>matter
>what we think or say about matters of public policy? Is this why words die
>around such topics? Does anybody see any way out, any way to restore the
>situation to its proper sets of relation, any means to reverse this
>reversed governance? Really?  db3
The Presidential approval-rating polls suggest there is no way out.
dwm
"The ugly, dirty fact was still there, right under our noses, and no
amount of brandy could wash it away."
- Christopher Isherwood, Mr. Norris Changes Trains (1935).
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 10:41:15 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Billy Little 
Subject:      re : whalen/berrigan
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If i'm not mistaken, Don Allen was working for Harcourt, Brace briefly and
saw On Bear's Head thru the press there. And I'm almost certain there was a
demonstration at the publishers, I wasn't there but Steve Jonas, or Joe
Dunn, or Bill Corbett or Tom Lux might have been.

billy little
4 song st.
nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0

ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy!
Are they unhappy, by the way?

                     Alice James
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:00:12 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Elizabeth Treadwell 
Subject:      Linda Russo's Kathleen Fraser
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A public note of thanks to Linda Russo, whose new email I lack, for the new
Kathleen Fraser page at the EPC.  Reading Analytica Femina has really
improved my stumbling pen to paper to oh just the dishes this morning.

Elizabeth

Outlet, a periodical
Double Lucy Books
P.O. Box 9013
Berkeley, California 94709
U.S.A.
http://users.lanminds.com/~dblelucy
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:45:57 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Gary Sullivan 
Subject:      last call
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Jordan & others, many of the question marks in my original post were glitches;
apparently whenever I type ellipses, they're translated, by the Buffalo server
or whatever as question marks. It's a bummer because I love ellipses. Anyway,
as Henry reminds me, by pitching poetic impulse against academic impulse, I'm
doing, essentially, what I accused Jacques of doing, so I'm going to respond to
Jacques' point that there seems to be an Ashberyian drift and an O'Hara drift
by saying, simply, I don't see it, or feel it, as palpably as he does. I've
already said why I do or don't (mostly don't) see O'Hara as primary influence
of the poets he'd mentioned. I mean, so, I disagree with you, I don't think
Jacques' point is, on looking into the work myself, accurate. But, you seem to
agree with him. So, that would be interesting: could you, and Jacques, you too,
do close readings of some of the work by poets Jacques mentioned and help me
better understand how this conclusion has been arrived at?

I can't speak for Chris, certainly not with respect to whatever authority he
might grant a project in which his participation was significant. I sense, and
tell me if I'm wrong, anxiety or disappointment that I simply find myself
unable to grant this volume any more weight, as barometer of contemporary
poetry, than the latest, well, Talisman. I attend to, find relevance in, & do
love, what genuinely compels me; not to any & all things apparently compelling
to the culture, or subculture of literary/arts administrative coteries. As we
all, I think, do, if to greater or lesser degree. & if the world is truly full
of amputees, one wants to know who dropped the bombs, who laid the mines.
[Sidenote: Coffee House Press published a book called Atomic Ghost a couple
years back, a book of (mostly nuclear) weapon protest poems. One of the
granting authorities was Honeywell. I'll bet Daniel Buchard could tell you what
they manufacture.]

David, the copy you have of On Bear's Head is a paperback. It was the price of
the hardback that was picketed. Or, so I read in one of Rexroth's essays. I
don't remember offhand what the price was. But, Billy & David, yeah, Whalen, &
duh, Whalen/Berrigan, which I won't go off on here, having posted several
months ago en length on what I felt Berrigan had found of use there.
(Continuous present being one thing, which Whalen discovered in Stein.) But,
this idea of Whalen allowing more in, well that might be why I return to him
more than any other more-or-less contemporary American poet. What I don't find
elsewhere, I'll find there. Or, maybe, being from the west coast, it's in part
a question of matched sensibilities. I don't know. I just think he's great, &
it doesn't matter to me whatsoever if university professors think so or not.
Nor that he's absent (speaking of anthologies) from the latest UC Berkeley that
Rothenberg & Joris put together. (Many wonderful W poets are missing: Whalen,
Welch, Wieners, Wheelwright, though the latter may be too early for that
volume.) W is for "Whatever."

Billy, do you really live on Song Street in Nowhere, Canada? If so, dang man,
that's like, Groove Factor 10. I would, though, never do an anthology. I don't
like how they're read, how they're used. They promote laziness, complacency and
grant authority vis-a-vis taste & relevance to agencies with mere capital &
literary/academic reputation behind them. Every poet & reader should discover
for him/herself what's of genuine relevance to their own lives & art. Is this
attitude, to the extent it might draw someone "away from the numbers," what
Jordan means by amputee? If so, I'd rather lose my limbs than my soul. I don't
think, however, that it ever really need come down to that.

Ciao for niao,

Gary
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:08:44 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         KENT JOHNSON 
Organization: Highland Community College
Subject:      Spin
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On Aug 27, Mark Weiss wrote:

>Look, if we have to have this discussion on the list let's just
>avoid spin. Today's Times article about the chemical trace found at
>the Sudanese factory says that it's unlikely, but remotely possible,
>that the compound in question could have commercial uses, although
>none of the sources quoted knows of any such uses.

Really, Mark, the spin here is coming from you. The article said much
more: It quoted American experts in chemical warfare and analysis as
saying that the VX precursor chemical Empta (supposedly the smoking
gun that showed up in a "soil sample") was very similar in structure
to "fonofos," an agricultural insecticide, and that these could be
easily confused, particularly in the highly possible scenario of the
"sample's" corruption through improper storage and handling. The
article also goes on to quote an official with the Organization for
the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons in the Hague, who said that
research suggests that Empta "could be the byproduct of the breakdown
of other pesticides." And the article concludes with the following
paragraph: "Thomas Carnaffin, a British engineer who worked as a
technical manager during the factory's construction from 1992 to
1996, said he never saw any evidence of Empta or other materials
involved in the production of VX. "I suppose I went into every corner
of the plant,' he said in a telephone interview from his phone in
England. 'It was never a plant of high security. You could walk
around wherever you liked, and no one tried to stop you.'"

Today's lead editorial in the NYT calls on the Clinton administration
to stop being so mysterious about the whole thing. The piece refers
to a rather compelling fact that has been little discussed in the
mainstream media: That the government of Sudan has asked for a United
Nations team of chemical experts to come in, pick through the plant
with a fine-toothed comb, and take all the soil samples they deem
necessary. The United States has refused to cooperate and is blocking
any investigation.

Time will tell, I suppose. But then again, time may not tell, and it
may be that this, like the truth about so many other crimes
committed by our government, will be washed down the drainhole of
history.

Kent
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:30:15 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Jordan Davis 
Subject:      Drift, collapse, mutilation
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Gary --

I'd like to take you up on your challenge to isolate drift -- I'm not sure
close reading will demonstrate it -- what's the story of Ashbery being told
his poems don't make sense, so he says show me where, then he explains all
the references .... somebody said the imperative all americans feel is: not
to be a sucker ... Barnum? or some other epistemologist. But there I go,
buying into that sucker/huckster dichotomy.

I was thinking about the Balkans and Sierra Leone in particular (and Carolyn
Forche's poem was part of the thinking) when I used the word 'amputee.'

Neither Yeltsin nor Clinton wants to resign.

Maybe change is written in iambs and news in anapests.

-- Jordan
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:35:25 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         louis stroffolino 
Subject:      HELP!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

   If anybody in the (lack of spaciness-allowing) NYC area
   knows of anything along these lines, could you please get
   in touch with these people

   I thought I knew of a space availbale between
   World Trade Tower One and World Trade Tower Two
   (the fearful symmetry of O'Hara and Ashbery)
   but I think a beached Whalen beat me to it......

   c

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 1998 16:49:15 EDT
From: TilesIL@aol.com
To: lstroffo@hornet.liunet.edu
Subject: apartment

birch hayes spoke to you today about a place to live.....HELP if you can.
it's not the money, we have the money........we just haven't found anything to
live in yet.......

thank you in advance,

ilene m.w. lush

ps: we are living at my mother's in connecticut.........if you can imagine
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:46:35 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Michael Kelleher 
Subject:      alyricmailer #8
Comments: To: core-l 
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hey folks

alyricmailer 8

Flipsides

by Sheila E. Murphy

is up at http://writing.upenn.edu/spc/alyric/alyric8.html

Sheila E. Murphy’s book manuscript Letters to Unfinished J. was selected

in last year’s open poetry competition sponsored by Sun & Moon Press,
and
will be published by Sun & Moon.  Dennis Phillips was the judge.  A
Sound
the Mobile Makes in Wind:  50 American Haibun was just released from
Mudlark (1998).  Falling in Love Falling in Love With You Syntax:
Selected and New Poems appeared from Potes & Poets Press in 1997.
Additional recent works include A Clove of Gender (Stride Press, 1995),
Pure Mental Breath (Gesture Press, 1994), and Tommy and Neil
(SUN/gemini Press, 1993).  Her work has been widely anthologized, most
recently in Danger:  Poets at Play (International Friends of
Transformative
Art, 1998), Fever Dreams:  Contemporary Arizona Poetry (The University
of Arizona Press, 1997), The Gertrude Stein Awards in Contemporary
Poetry (Sun & Moon Press, 1994, 1995), Primary Trouble:  An Anthology
of Contemporary American Poetry (Talisman House Press, 1996), and The
Art of Practice:  45 Contemporary Poets (Potes & Poets Press, 1994).
Twelve years ago, she founded and continues to coordindate with Beverly
Carver the Scottsdale Center for the Arts Poetry Series  Her home is in
Phoenix.

Upcoming issues:  notes from the place(less Place) gathering this past
june, Ben Friedlander, and more.

Enjoy!
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 11:59:12 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Mark Weiss 
Subject:      Re: Spin
In-Reply-To:  <13272C1346@student.highland.cc.il.us>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I agree with your last paragraph. As to my statement about spin, I stand by
it. Read the whole article. Also note--the story and editorial conclusions
haven't made, as far as I remember, the Washington Post or the LA Times. My
guess is that they're not yet sure it's a story. Important to remember the
NY Times' consistent anti-Clinton stand. But, as you say, time, and more
knowledge, will tell. I, for one, can be patient for a couple of weeks.


At 01:08 PM 8/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>On Aug 27, Mark Weiss wrote:
>
>>Look, if we have to have this discussion on the list let's just
>>avoid spin. Today's Times article about the chemical trace found at
>>the Sudanese factory says that it's unlikely, but remotely possible,
>>that the compound in question could have commercial uses, although
>>none of the sources quoted knows of any such uses.
>
>Really, Mark, the spin here is coming from you. The article said much
>more: It quoted American experts in chemical warfare and analysis as
>saying that the VX precursor chemical Empta (supposedly the smoking
>gun that showed up in a "soil sample") was very similar in structure
>to "fonofos," an agricultural insecticide, and that these could be
>easily confused, particularly in the highly possible scenario of the
>"sample's" corruption through improper storage and handling. The
>article also goes on to quote an official with the Organization for
>the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons in the Hague, who said that
>research suggests that Empta "could be the byproduct of the breakdown
>of other pesticides." And the article concludes with the following
>paragraph: "Thomas Carnaffin, a British engineer who worked as a
>technical manager during the factory's construction from 1992 to
>1996, said he never saw any evidence of Empta or other materials
>involved in the production of VX. "I suppose I went into every corner
>of the plant,' he said in a telephone interview from his phone in
>England. 'It was never a plant of high security. You could walk
>around wherever you liked, and no one tried to stop you.'"
>
>Today's lead editorial in the NYT calls on the Clinton administration
>to stop being so mysterious about the whole thing. The piece refers
>to a rather compelling fact that has been little discussed in the
>mainstream media: That the government of Sudan has asked for a United
>Nations team of chemical experts to come in, pick through the plant
>with a fine-toothed comb, and take all the soil samples they deem
>necessary. The United States has refused to cooperate and is blocking
>any investigation.
>
>Time will tell, I suppose. But then again, time may not tell, and it
>may be that this, like the truth about so many other crimes
>committed by our government, will be washed down the drainhole of
>history.
>
>Kent
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:00:42 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Charles Bernstein 
Subject:      Masha Zavialov email/Russain Poetry Festival  (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Masha Zavialov sent this message me to me a week ago, but I have been away
and can only pass it on now. You may recall that she posted the
information on the immediately forthcoming Russian Poetry festival in St.
Petersburg (Sept. 25-27). (Naturally, one has to wonder how she and other
Russians are faring under the economic chaos of this week, which must be a
terrible one for them.)


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 1998 10:10:07 +0400 (MSD)
From: "Sergei A. Zavialov" 
To: bernstei@bway.net
Subject: change of address

Dear Charles
My email was not working for several days - my provider was doing all kinds of
nasty things with my address and now I have a different one:
zavialov@zavialov.spb.ru
I'm afraid that the notice on the festival on the Poetics List has an old
version. Is it possible to change it?
Sorry to give you so much trouble
Best wishes
Masha
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:20:10 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         "P.Standard Schaefer" 
Subject:      RIBOT conference
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Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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College of Neglected Science:  2nd annual RIBOT conference

Paul Vangelisti asked me to post this information about the Ribot (pronounced
ree-boe) conference to celebrate the sixth issue.  I also want to say that
last year's conference on Catalina was a lot of fun.  A lot of wonderful (and
diverse) poets showed up like Norma Cole, Leslie Scalapino, Nathaniel Tarn,
Martha Ronk, Mark Salerno, Todd Barron, Douglas Messerli.  Despite what people
say about the L.A. scene, there are a lot of sharp people in town, more now
than ever, and a lot of momentum building up through this second conference.
I look forward to seeing a large horde of west coast youngsters like myself.
I hear Garrett Caples (showed up last year) and Jeff Clark may attend.  (By
the way, Jeff Clark is definitely not working for the FBI...more likely is
wanted by them) Hopefully we can get Jacques Debrot back out from the Boston
area again this year.  What about you cats in Atlanta?  I hear airlines fares
are reasonable right now.  With Otis College sponsoring the conference this
year, a lot more visual artist are likely to show up.  I hear there'll be some
free booze.

One thing I'm noticing is missing from the following info that Paul sent me is
that there are hotel rooms available for a group rate of $65 a night, free
airport shuttle.

"Generation"

an literary & arts conference celebrating the publication of Ribot 6 —

Over 60 Under 30 (poets & visual artists from around the world, born
before 1938 after 1968)

October 30-31 at Otis College of Art & Design (9045 Lincoln Blvd., Los
Angeles 90045)

Opening reception and publication party, Friday, October 30, 6:30 p.m.

Symposia, Saturday, October 31, 10:30 a.m. - 5:30 p.m.

Masked Ball, Saturday, 9 p.m.

Attendance free and open to all ages. For more information, 310-665-6920

This event is co-sponsored by the Communications Design, Fine Arts and
Liberal Studies Departments of Otis College of Art & Design, in
cooperation with L.A. Books.
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:51:01 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         CharSSmith@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: A Border Comedy
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-08-28 12:19:40 EDT, you write:

<< Sun & Moon Press will be publishing the complete
 A BORDER COMEDY late this year or early next.

 Douglas Messerli >>

whatever happened to S/M's publication of Lyn's writing thru Oppen's _Of Being
Numerous_? (can't remember her exact title right now)

--cs
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 02:59:46 +0000
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         miekal and 
Organization: Awkward Ubutronics
Subject:      Re: Masha Zavialov email/Russain Poetry Festival  (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

can anyone repost the original message about the festival?

miekal
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 15:07:02 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         David Zauhar 
Subject:      Re: re : whalen/berrigan
In-Reply-To:  
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

Actually, I have a hardback of On Bear's Head (not handy) and I seem to
remember that the price was $17.95 at a time when most hardcovers were
about a third of that, which would be comparable to a volume of poetry now
going for $60 or so today. I also bought a copy at a Chicago Public
Library sale last week for the tragically low price of 50 cents.

David Zauhar
University of Illinois at Chicago

"I believe that the devil is in these poets. They destroy all
universities. And I heard from an old master of Leipsic who had been
Magister for 36 years that when he was a young men then did the
university stand firm, for there was not a poet within 20 miles."

_Epistolae Obscurorum Virorum_, ii.46. Quoted in Helen Waddell's _The
Wandering Scholars_

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998, Billy Little wrote:

> If i'm not mistaken, Don Allen was working for Harcourt, Brace briefly and
> saw On Bear's Head thru the press there. And I'm almost certain there was a
> demonstration at the publishers, I wasn't there but Steve Jonas, or Joe
> Dunn, or Bill Corbett or Tom Lux might have been.
>
> billy little
> 4 song st.
> nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0
>
> ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy!
> Are they unhappy, by the way?
>
>                      Alice James
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:12:14 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         CharSSmith@AOL.COM
Subject:      Re: Whalen/Berrigan
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 98-08-28 12:46:48 EDT, Jordan writes:

<< Yes, there's a New York writer who took on Whalen as an influence: Ted
 Berrigan. Joel Lewis can tell the story better than I; On Bear's Head was
 insanely expensive when it came out? Didn't the poets picket Harcourt Brace
 Jovanovich to get them to bring the price down? It wasn't
 first-printing-Ulysses expensive (didn't they charge what was at the time a
 working stiff's monthly ((annual?)) wage?), but out of line. >>

Jordan,

My 1969 (paper) copy reads "$3.95  Slightly higher in Canada." or is that what
HB "& World" lowered it to?

David's right, _OBH_ (& the fabulous _Diamond Noodle_ were stacked high on
remainder tables for several years. Sad & almost impossible to imagine they're
outta print.




                             *scrabble for pw*

        H    A
     B E A R ' S
        A     R
        D     E
               S
             ATTENTION
               S


all best,
--cs
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:46:10 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Jacques Debrot 
Subject:      Re: last call
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Gary, this is fun.  The question you ask concerning the relevance of critical
discussion to the actual practice/activity of writing poems is a very
important one & I hope that other people will take it up as well -- I just
don't have the time this p.m. to address it with the attention & frankness
that I think  necessary -- but I'm anxious to, as soon as I can break away
from other work.  For now, though, since you brought it up, why don't *you*,
if you like, do a close reading uncovering the Dylan Thomas, Ovid, &
Shakespeare lurking in Stroffolino's poetry & explain to me how these
influences -- the ones you cite in your initial post -- are more (or just as)
urgent & prevelant in S's poetry than Ashbery's.  Can you do it with a
straight face?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:54:58 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Gary Sullivan 
Subject:      With a straight face
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Well, I think I can, and will definitely try. I don't have e-mail at home, but
will respond on Monday. But, Jacques, forgive me, I probably wasn't clear: by
"Dylan" I meant Bob Dylan, not Dylan Thomas. Yes, this is fun. But then, my
alternative, here, is (gag me) "work." Which is thankfully over. & this being
Friday night, I'm off to go get twisted.

Soon-soon,

Gary

On Friday, August 28, 1998 4:46 PM, Jacques Debrot [SMTP:JDEBROT@AOL.COM]
wrote:
> Gary, this is fun.  The question you ask concerning the relevance of critical
> discussion to the actual practice/activity of writing poems is a very
> important one & I hope that other people will take it up as well -- I just
> don't have the time this p.m. to address it with the attention & frankness
> that I think  necessary -- but I'm anxious to, as soon as I can break away
> from other work.  For now, though, since you brought it up, why don't *you*,
> if you like, do a close reading uncovering the Dylan Thomas, Ovid, &
> Shakespeare lurking in Stroffolino's poetry & explain to me how these
> influences -- the ones you cite in your initial post -- are more (or just as)
> urgent & prevelant in S's poetry than Ashbery's.  Can you do it with a
> straight face?
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:20:09 -0700
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Mark Weiss 
Subject:      Re: last call
In-Reply-To:  <23c311aa.35e71712@aol.com>>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

This question of influence is pretty tricky because it sometimes happens on
so intimate a level that it's unlikely to be noticed by anyone but the
poet. In my own case, for instance (and I cite myself only because I have
more specialized knowledge), I have been very influenced in my sense of the
language's music by, among others, Ben Jonson and Armand Schwerner. Neither
would recognize their voices in my work.


At 04:46 PM 8/28/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Gary, this is fun.  The question you ask concerning the relevance of critical
>discussion to the actual practice/activity of writing poems is a very
>important one & I hope that other people will take it up as well -- I just
>don't have the time this p.m. to address it with the attention & frankness
>that I think  necessary -- but I'm anxious to, as soon as I can break away
>from other work.  For now, though, since you brought it up, why don't *you*,
>if you like, do a close reading uncovering the Dylan Thomas, Ovid, &
>Shakespeare lurking in Stroffolino's poetry & explain to me how these
>influences -- the ones you cite in your initial post -- are more (or just as)
>urgent & prevelant in S's poetry than Ashbery's.  Can you do it with a
>straight face?
>
>
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 16:35:11 -0600
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Maria Damon 
Subject:      Re: Masha Zavialov email/Russain Poetry Festival  (fwd)
In-Reply-To:  <35E61D21.4A62@mwt.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

here's -not the original but an update--i'll look and see if i still have
the original; just got this today.

At 2:59 AM +0000 8/28/98, miekal and wrote:
>can anyone repost the original message about the festival?
>
>miekal

X-From_: zavialov@zavialov.spb.ru Fri Aug 28 08:40 CDT 1998
To: Maria Damon 
Organization: Private person (St.Petersburg)
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:26:33 +0400 (MSD)
From: "Sergei A. Zavialov" 
Subject: more in festival
Lines: 43

Dear Maria
 I'm sorry you are not coming but I hope that there will be another chance
for you to come. To tell the truth it's not the best time to come as
we are now on the verge of economic collapse. The rouble is falling
drastically and prices are skyrocketing. It's not bad though for
dollar-holders.
 I can't cash my grant that I got from Soros Foundation in August
 for the research in African American and Russian women's literature.
 All bank accounts are almost frozen.
Enclosed please find some additional information on our festival. I
wonder if it's possible to put it on the Poetics list.

  File begins:

Here is some new information for the festival:
The name of the festival is "Genius Loci". The main idea of the festival
is to overcome the split between regional trends and schools (Moscow and
St.Petersburg schools as the main and maybe only ones extant now) in Russian
poetry. This split is not informational but aesthetic. So we strive to
 reestablish poetic continuity, to rehabilitate St. Petersburg poetry in
the eyes of the Moscow public and to shatter the conservatism of the
Petersburg public In other words - to demythologize the images of both.
Our party will include all the active poets of St. Petersburg of various
"denominations": traditionally Peterburgian poets Krivulin and Stratanovsky,
 poets associated with postmodernism A. Dragomoshchenko, Skidan, Golynko,
a poet of "traditional avanguard" Gornon, an old member of Soyuz Pisatelei
but still a very good poet and a young man Nikolai Kononov, a poet of
hermetism Mikhail Eremin, a syllabist Larissa Berezovchuk,  an OBERIUt
Kucheriavkin, and Sergei Zavialov.
You see that "classical" Peterburg poetry with its monotonous rhyming
doesn't dominate the scene.
Moscow people: conceptualists Prigov and Rubinstein, lianozovets Sapgir,
a poet writing in free verse Akhmetyev, performance people Bonifatsii and
Avaliani, young poets Vodennikov, Skorodumova and Zondberg, and also
three well-known guys Aizenberg, Gandlevsky and Aristov.
Of three days in each city there will be two days of readings and one day
(the last one) of discussions and round tables where you are very welcome
to participate
The venue in St.Petersburg is Pushkin's memorial apartment on Moika,12.
End file.
I got an answer from Armand. But I don't have Solomon's address. If you have
it please send it to me. I mean email addr.
Hope to hear from you, Masha
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 17:19:46 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         KENT JOHNSON 
Organization: Highland Community College
Subject:      (Fwd): Khartoum Translation Conference
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From:          "KENT JOHNSON" 
Organization:  Highland Community College
To:            kjohnson
Date:          Fri, 28 Aug 1998 13:52:55 -0500
Subject:       (Fwd): Khartoum Translation Conference

Dear Mr. David:

It is to our delightful attention that the poetry of Sudan is now
discussed in the poetry of America with such suddenness. Thank you
for being a section of this and for making a vision of a poet of
Sudan. In ways I believe you do not suspect, you have entered the
Arab nation's literature. It is my principle, nevertheless, that you
must be delighted by this.

Please excuse my English, but I am writing to invite you, as a
poet first of Canada and now, secondarily, of America, to what I now
wish to present. I am speaking concerning a conference
(International) devotional to translation in all the sense of this
word. We are interested, with specificness, in the doubled (tripled!)
voices passed through many mediators of history and cultural
ignorance. Irony, as I feel you must conceptualize, is big here.
Irony, in its bigness, becomes something other. It is like, for an
example, you, a Sudanese poet speaking through an English tongue of
brokenness. Or it is like many, many things: For an example, if I may
twice say so: It is like two boys kissing in the shadows of a
pharmaceutical plant. (They are like black and deep wells. Their
lives inside are very, very rich.) The sun will come up over this
dusty land and an ancient hatredness shall fill them.

I do not know if I put myself well. So may I directly ask. Will you
come to Khartoum? Please close your heavy eyes and dream of my
branching hand opened out to you.

We passion to invite another poet of America, Mr. Kent, who also is
credenced in your two countries, and perhaps others, to be a racist.
(In his reply to our Central Council, he spoke: "I am honestly not
sure.") Still we are opened, and we have most little, but our flowing
tents which appear (to all purposes and meanings) to be sailboats in
the desert, are yours. Our young are fresh and eager, and they shall
press into your soft mouth goat cheese with a hurt and surprised look
in their eyes. Also, dark-skinned soldiers with golden and musical
watches adorn every minareted corner. Yes, you will find Khartoum
strange and hospitality-filled, except, as you realize, inside
certain surprising circumstances. But lightning on a human is more
likely, so really not to worry.

Ethnography, of course, is also interesting to every one of us and to
all peoples. Our flowing tents, if I may say it repeatedly (for I, in
an addition, am a poet), appear to be sailboats in the desert. Thus,
after the morning session, we will convene in Building 242 for tea,
the prayers of all religions, and the making of bombs. No one is to
be insulted, not even if they do not know how. Then we will
reconvene, as I have said, and talk concerning Ethnography, including
the customs of Christian animists to the south, the poignancy of
American magazines like _Look_and _Cross Cultural Poetics_, and the
rituals of Buffalo List of Poets.

Well, I am sorry. The situation is very complicated. But here, as the
saying goes, we are. Here also, please, is a poem by a youth named
Leonel Rugama whom we have invited too, except sadly he was beheaded
long ago, at 20 years, by Green Beret students in the country of
Nicaragua:

The Earth Is A Satellite Of The Moon

Apollo 2 cost more than Apollo 1
Apollo 1 cost plenty.

Apollo 3 cost more than Apollo 2
Apollo 2 cost more than Apollo 1
Apollo 1 cost plenty.

Apollo 4 cost more than Apollo 3
Apollo 3 cost more than Apollo 2
Apollo 2 cost more than Apollo 1
Apollo 1 cost plenty.

Apollo 8 cost a whole shit-load of money, but no one minded
because the astronauts were Protestant
they read the Bible from the moon
astounding and delighting every Christian
and on their return Pope Paul VI gave them his blessing.

Apollo 9 cost more than all of these put together
including Apollo 1 which cost plenty.

The great-grandparents of the people of Acahualinca were less
           hungry than the grandparents.
The great-grandparents died of hunger.
The grandparents of the people of Acahualinca were less
           hungry than the parents.
The grandparents died of hunger.
The parents of the people of Acahualinca were less
           hungry than the children of the people there.
The parents died of hunger.
The people of Acahualinca are less hungry than the children
           of the people there.
The children of the people of Acahualinca, because of hunger,
           are not born
they hunger to be born, even to just die of hunger.
Blessed are the poor for they shall inherit the moon.
--------------
Well, in realness, I do not know why I give this poem, except that I
know you very much like poems. Don't you agree it was translated,
without doubtfulness, by someone most self-congratulatory, so angry
at his own country, yet blind as Oedipus to the terrorisms of
non-white peoples? (Forgive me. I am smoking opium from Afghanistan.
It betters my English, which you can tell is getting better as
this letter, like a martyr, spills.)

Of course, Mr. David, the trip (including camels) is long, like
torture, apparently, in its likeness, and you shall be compelled to
gift-forth your own plane-fare. In these days, that can be a
dangerous incident. I understand, of course. But we sure hope you
will say yes. Will you say yes? The people of Sudan await you.
Headphones are to be distributed. You are forever one of us.

Sincerely, (although it is not my true name)

Osama Hussein
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:55:02 +0000
Reply-To:     baratier@megsinet.net
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         David Baratier 
Organization: The New Web, Inc
Subject:      Re: last call
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
              x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Jacques

If Gary is going out,  having published Chris's work for awhile now
including _Oops_ I'll give it a try if no one will hold me accountable
source for source. Though I am a bit elliptical, if something isn't
clear let me know. I'll take the first stanza for two hundred from
"Christmas Card from a landlord" that appears in _Light as a Fetter_ & I
first published in Pavement Saw.


In giddy moods a peach doesn't have to become
A seed to perpetuate the species, a building can
Be torn down by plopping another building, ready for
Occupancy, in the same spot, but I can only hope
To pick up the thread she gave me before spring
Comes around green again like fool's gold...

In giddy moods (James Tate _Constant Defender_ I think it's Jelka)
a peach doesn't have to become / A seed to perpetuate the species,
(Dylan Thomas "A process in the weather of the heart"  the seed that
makes a forest of the loin/ forks half of its fruit) (this is a good
gloss for the entire piece now that I'm thinking of it, and so is
Steven's second section of "Two Letters" in Opus ) [Also Shakespeare
Sonnet 93 or better yet 1 "Thou art now the worlds freshest ornament /
And only herald to the gaudy Spring / Within thine own bud buriest
content"  ]
a building can / Be torn down by plopping another building, ready for
/ Occupancy, in the same spot, ( The Fall:  derived from the repetition
of  a song on the album _The Wonderful and Frightening World of the
Fall_)
but I can only hope
To pick up the thread she gave me before spring
Comes around green again like fool's gold...
( I can't figure this one, it's close to mind but not there yet, I would
take a stab at a derivation from Berryman's Dream Songs or a play of
W.S.)

Be well

David Baratier
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:31:50 +0000
Reply-To:     toddbaron@earthlink.net
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Todd Baron /*/ ReMap 
Subject:      Re: Whalen/Berrigan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

ps: berrigan--yes--also really loved the Berryman sonnets.

TB
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 21:58:17 -0400
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Charles Bernstein 
Subject:      more on Russian poetry festival (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 28 Aug 1998 09:55:16 +0400 (MSD)
From: "Sergei A. Zavialov" 
To: bernstei@bway.net
Subject: more on festival

Dear Charles
You are right, this country is about to collapse economically. The rouble
has fallen 30% but still foreign currency is nowhere to be got even at a
higher price. I can't cash the check I got as a grant from the Soros
Foundation for the research in Afr. American women's writing.
 In a bank (the main state-owned one) they told me they could
cash it in two months but they didn't advise me to trust them my money.
I guess I'll have to go to Finland to cash it.
The perparation for the festival is going on in spite of all economic
and social upheavals.
Here is some more on the festival. I've sent the same file to Maria Damon.
   Best wishes, Masha





Here is some new information for the festival:
The name of the festival is "Genius Loci". The main idea of the festival
is to overcome the split between regional trends and schools (Moscow and
St.Petersburg schools as the main and maybe only ones extant now) in Russian
poetry. This split is not informational but aesthetic. So we strive to
 reestablish poetic continuity, to rehabilitate St. Petersburg poetry in
the eyes of the Moscow public and to shatter the conservatism of the
Petersburg public In other words - to demythologize the images of both.
Our party will include all the active poets of St. Petersburg of various
"denominations": traditionally Peterburgian poets Krivulin and Stratanovsky,
 poets associated with postmodernism A. Dragomoshchenko, Skidan, Golynko,
a poet of "traditional avanguard" Gornon, an old member of Soyuz Pisatelei
but still a very good poet and a young man Nikolai Kononov, a poet of
hermetism Mikhail Eremin, a syllabist Larissa Berezovchuk,  an OBERIUt
Kucheriavkin, and Sergei Zavialov.
You see that "classical" Peterburg poetry with its monotonous rhyming
doesn't dominate the scene.
Moscow people: conceptualists Prigov and Rubinstein, lianozovets Sapgir,
a poet writing in free verse Akhmetyev, performance people Bonifatsii and
Avaliani, young poets Vodennikov, Skorodumova and Zondberg, and also
three well-known guys Aizenberg, Gandlevsky and Aristov.
Of three days in each city there will be two days of readings and one day
(the last one) of discussions and round tables where you are very welcome
to participate.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:00:12 +0100
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         joel lewis 
Subject:      Re: whalen/berrigan
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

the story that whalen told about the origins of On Bears Head was that the
late novelist Don carpenter was signed to harcourt and suggested thatthe
press publish whalen, ron lowensohn, james koller and lew welch. All, but
the Welch book was published (welch did put together a selection that was
done by Don Allen)..if i recall these books were published under a
coyote/harcourt imprint, obviously thiings were loser in the late 60's, as
this is similiarto tom clark gettingharper & row to publish coolidge,
saroyan & (i think) dick gallup and lewis macadams.

apparently lewis warsh and bill berkson were among the picketers at the
harcout offices (the hd was 17.95) amzingly the pb was in print until the
early 80's and then you could get a copy for a buck.

berrigan was not the only whalen booster. warsh wrote an essay on OBH.
waldman interviewed him and he taught at naropa in the early years.
coolidge as well was a big booster.

it would be great if a collected where issued-- maybe too much for a small
press to handle


joel lewis
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 01:25:15 EDT
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Ramez Ejaz Qureshi 
Subject:      Re: ascetic aesthetics
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Wouldn't anything psychoanalytical on sublimation, whereby a certain quality
of pleasure is renounced for another, be helpful? Also Marxism; you mention
Adorno, but Benjamin on distraction, Lukacs on the utility of realism, or
Brecht's aesthetic distancing as a shift of quality of pleasure for political
purposes might be worth thinking about.
=========================================================================
Date:         Sat, 29 Aug 1998 00:29:09 -0500
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Thomas Bell 
Organization: @Home Network
Subject:      Re: poetry on the web
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Loss,
     I'm sure you realize that you're opening some meaty issues here,
issues that I feel merit further comment(s)-

Loss Pequen~o Glazier wrote:
>
> Dear Dodie & others,
>
> The gif file idea is often the most attractive but, as Dodie mentions, less
> than idea for people with lower end computing power. (The poem, in this form,
> also looses its status as "text" ruling out the possibilities of text-based
> search tools which becomes more of a shortcoming as the size of your site
> grows.)

     A poem's status as 'text' is an intriguing concept when 'text' is
"actual words of an author as opposed to notes" (_Websters') or "the
principal matter on a printed page" (Webster's again) and this 'text' is
posted for people to 'read' through a wide range of browsers.  Is it
'printed as text" when posted or when read?  I think there is more to
this question than just a virtual conumdrum.


> This matter of 'do we make the poetry text or an image' really has some
> implications ie, I worry about taking from our works their status as text.
> It's
> like poetry becomes idealized or removed from circulation in certain senses.

My experience in working with poetry as image is that rather than taking
from my work I am adding to it through the drawing mode. [I hope this is
shared by readers].  the verbal and visual come from differnt places in
my body and meet (hopefully) out there someplace (playspace, meditation
site, etc.).  Hard to keep from getting carried away here, but recent
mentions of Whalen on the list here is possibly serendipitous?

tom bell
=========================================================================
Date:         Fri, 28 Aug 1998 22:34:58 +0100
Reply-To:     UB Poetics discussion group 
Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group 
From:         Marjorie Perloff 
Subject:      Re: Sulfur special issue, 1999
Comments: To: Jenny Penberthy 
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              boundary="------------9EDCE27A13D9A15993B1EFEF"

--------------9EDCE27A13D9A15993B1EFEF
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Call for Poems, Prose works

As we announced in July,  Jenny Penberthy and I are guest-editing a
special issue of SULFUR  on Anglophone poetry outside the U.S. and U.K.
Much good material is coming in from Canada, Australia, and New Zealand
but we are woefully short on material from South Africa and the other
English-speaking African countries, the Caribbean, India and Pakistan.
If you wish to submit poetry or short prose texts (including critical
essays), please email to me as well as to Jenny.  The deadline is
October 15th.  And urge your friends to submit!

Or mail to us in duplicate (with return postage please):
1) Marjorie Perloff
    1467 Amalfi Drive
   Pacific Palisades, CA 90272

2) Jenny Penberthy
    3125 Waterloo St.
    Vancouver, BC
    Canada V6R  3JB

Best wishes from

Marjorie & Jenny

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Call for Poems, Prose works

As we announced in July,  Jenny Penberthy and I are guest-editing a special issue of SULFUR  on Anglophone poetry outside the U.S. and U.K.  Much good material is coming in from Canada, Australia, and New Zealand but we are woefully short on material from South Africa and the other English-speaking African countries, the Caribbean, India and Pakistan.  If you wish to submit poetry or short prose texts (including critical essays), please email to me as well as to Jenny.  The deadline is October 15th.  And urge your friends to submit!

Or mail to us in duplicate (with return postage please):
1) Marjorie Perloff
    1467 Amalfi Drive
   Pacific Palisades, CA 90272

2) Jenny Penberthy
    3125 Waterloo St.
    Vancouver, BC
    Canada V6R  3JB

Best wishes from

Marjorie & Jenny --------------9EDCE27A13D9A15993B1EFEF-- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 02:36:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ramez Ejaz Qureshi Subject: Re: ascetic aesthetics(2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Oh, an addendum. I think Benjamin's conception of "sobriety" in his essay, "On the Concept of Criticism in Early German Romanticism" could be helpful. Also, in the Kantian vein, Schiller's ofen overlooked essay on the sublime might interest you. -RQ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 12:51:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: CharSSmith@AOL.COM Subject: Re: new WITZ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Chris, I must've missed yr announcement for 6.1, so I'm sending $10 for a subscription to vol 6 -- hopefully you've still got some of #1. Charles Smith 2135 IRvin Way Sacramento, CA 95822 In a message dated 98-08-27 15:10:39 EDT, you write: << WITZ VOLUME SIX, NUMBER 2 SUMMER 1998 >> ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 10:22:04 +0000 Reply-To: arshile@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Salerno Organization: Arshile: A Magazine of the Arts Subject: Re: RIBOT conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends: At the risk of preaching to the choir, I'd like to second a statement made by my colleague, Standard Schaefer, in his announcement of the Ribot Conference, to wit: P.Standard Schaefer wrote: > > Despite what people > say about the L.A. scene, there are a lot of sharp people in town, more now > than ever, and a lot of momentum building up through this second conference. It amazes me that, among seemingly "sharp" people in other parts of the world, Los Angeles as a cultural and arts center is still held in low esteem, if not in contempt. For example, when I was in New York last spring, to read at St. Mark's and the Zinc Bar, and to see friends and fellow poets, I was often met with the question: "Is there any poetry scene in L.A.?" This question was sometimes accompanied by derisive jokes about Los Angeles cultural life, or lack thereof, jokes that dated back to the pre-ANNIE HALL movies of Woody Allen. I was disappointed, to say the least. It seems like the height of provincialism to have no interest in or understanding of places outside one's own, and I had expected a little better of New York. The fact is that Los Angeles has a pretty dynamic and varied poetry scene, one that remains open to new things and to experiment on all levels. The upside of the famous "slam" against L.A., that it is too spread out, is that there's plenty of room--intellectual and psychological, as well as geographical--for everyone and anyone to do as they please. Furthermore, Standard's point is not just that there is activity here, but that there is quality as well. One need look no further than Standard's own RHIZOME magazine, which I think in terms of its quality stands up against anything of its kind published anywhere else in the U.S. And RHIZOME represents but a small segment of the kinds of things being produced in Los Angeles. Paul Vangelisti's RIBOT, and the conferences that are growing out of it, are also sources of quality material and gathering energy. And it hardly needs to be stated that Douglas Messerli's Sun & Moon Press is arguably the premier small press in North America--and, folks, its offices are down on the famous and beautiful Wilshire Boulevard! While I dislike being in the position of having to defend Los Angeles, or of sounding booster-ish, I must say it really doesn't reflect well on us as poets and artists if we continue to fall back on received opinions (not to say cliches) and fail to allow our curiosity to lead us to investigate what is really what. Even if we are *only* talking about Los Angeles. Good wishes & Join Us for the Ribot Conference, Mark Salerno P.S. I'm a New Yorker born and raised, living in Los Angeles for a decade and a half, so I'm not exactly unsympathetic to both sides of the issue. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 14:22:12 -0400 Reply-To: fperrell@jlc.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "F. W. Perrella" Subject: Liberian Poets - any info? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Noting the discussion of Sudanese poets, I was wondering if anyone knows of any Liberian poets/poetry websites? Thanks Anne Perrella ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:25:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "A. Jenn Sondheim" Subject: Nikuko on Ytalk MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Nikuko on Ytalk ---------------------------= YTalk version 3.0 (2)------------------------ Oh, this is more beautiful than I could ever imagine. I am ytalking myself, I, Daishin Nikuko And then I would come out of the cave to see the jeweled ornaments between my legs, glistening there between my legs, visible in the light of my sun And there would be the smell of my body everywhere, like the smell of the earth, and these would be the jewels to be caressed, the magatama I am wearing now, curved into me Curved so they emerged in the form of speech and speaking and the glistening murmurs of the world Until our speech is curved itself, dense scent now of love, death, you. -------------------------= sondheim@panix3.panix.com---------------------- Hi there, my god you've made it through here... When I was in the cave then was I dancing outside the cave, exposing myself to myself And I would grab myself, stop the useless flight back into the darkness, surely; and the grain would grow, the trees flower, cherry blossoms everywhere... Curved into me, like a flower or a seed, curved through my loins, stomach, through my mouth and throat Which here I place upon the page for you to read, to comprehend, to pass down, generation after generation ---------------------------= YTalk version 3.0 (2)------------------------ Hi there, my god you've made it through here... When I was in the cave then was I dancing outside the cave, exposing myself to myself And I would grab myself, stop the useless flight back into the darkness, surely; and the grain would grow, the trees flower, cherry blossoms everywhere... Curved into me, like a flower or a seed, curved through my loins, stomach, through my mouth and throat Which here I place upon the page for you to read, to comprehend, to pass down, generation after generation -------------------------= sondheim@panix3.panix.com---------------------- Oh, this is more beautiful than I could ever imagine. I am ytalking myself, I, Daishin Nikuko And then I would come out of the cave to see the jeweled ornaments between my legs, glistening there between my legs, visible in the light of my sun And there would be the smell of my body everywhere, like the smell of the earth, and these would be the jewels to be caressed, the magatama I am wearing now, curved into me Curved so they emerged in the form of speech and speaking and the glistening murmurs of the world Until our speech is curved itself, dense scent now of love, death, you. __________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 16:26:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Susan Schultz Subject: Re: more Ashbery Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I enjoyed Jacques D's post on Ashbery, despite finding myself in the "wrong" camp of Ashbery camp followers. What struck me, however, was that the terms by which the _New Criterion_ decided what JA was acceptable and what not were simply reversed, so that what the NC didn't like acquired value and what they approved of seemed troublesome to JD. Surely there are a myriad--a plethora, even--of positions somewhere else on this right to left (or meditative/Romantic to O'Hara) spectrum. To categorize JA as an either-or seems to me, in any case, to go against the terms that JA sets up (though I admire the way Debrot worked this particular kind of argument). What strikes me as most troublesome about Ashbery is not that there is more than one of him--hence many possible variations on his themes by younger poets, but that it's impossible on some level to make the choice. His consistency is his inconsistency. It's something that makes it difficult to write about his work, seems to me. That said, I think there remains a lot of work to do within the larger influence that Ashbery is, and one of these tasks is to anchor his marvelous process of process in the actual, political, multicultural world. One can make the argument that he already does this (as Stephen Paul Martin did in a book I edited), but I think one can expand upon this strain (and perhaps it _is_ a strain) in JA's work. That is what I see myself trying to do, whether or not the _Talisman_ bears witness to it. And that said, I'd happily pay my money again for _Wakefulness_, if only to read the lines in the first poem about "A kindly gnome / of fear [that] perched on my dashboard once." I knew that gnome, I was friends with that gnome, and Dan Quayle, you have no gnome. all the best, Susan Schultz ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 15:34:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Peter Balestrieri Subject: Re: (Fwd): Khartoum Translation Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit An amazing letter and voice. I'd like to hear more from Husein. Kent, do you have an address? It's great to see Leonel Rugama's name and work in print anywhere. Surrounded in a home by the army of Somoza, Rugama, a young poet and Sandinista, was called on to surrender. His comrades dead beside him and the house in flames, Rugama yelled back, "Ask your mother to surrender"! "The Earth Is A Satellite Of The Moon" is one of my favorite poems. PB ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 17:41:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Organization: @Home Network Subject: ascetic aesthetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Quote and query: I suspect the void Kristeva deals with in this essay differs from that in the original query to the list, but I'll post it anyway as I have a further question: "In its most audacious moments current (Lacanian) psychoanalytic theory proposes a theory of the subject as a divided unity which arises from and is determined by lack (void, nothingness, zero, according to the context) and engages in an unsatisfied quest for the impossible, represented by metonymic desire." - The subject in process from _The Tel Quel Reader. My question is what does "metonymic" mean here? I'm baffled or am I just in an end of summer heatwave funk/ tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:22:37 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Jargon books Dear List-lings: I was in Asheville (NC) a couple of months ago, and stumbled across a couple of excellent used/rare bookstores. Among other things, I picked up two Jargon books by Thomas Meyer: THE BANG BOOK (Jargon 69, 1071 - A tale of the Old West), and SAPPHO'S RAFT (Jargon 99, 1982). As expected, these are gorgeous books. Can anyone help me out: who is/was Thomas Meyer? And, on Jargon books, another request for help (back-channel, I suppose): can anyone help me locate (for purchase) an affordable copy of Larry Eigner's ON MY EYES (Jargon 36, 1960)? I've seen bits and pieces of this book--there is a good selection in Larry's SELECTED POEMS--and I'm becoming convinced that this book is a neglected masterpiece. I've located one copy for sale, but at $250 it's way out of my league. Any help finding an affordable copy would be appreciated. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 18:30:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: miekal and Organization: Awkward Ubutronics Subject: Re: Jargon books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hank have you called Woodland Patterns in Milwaukee? They are amazing for having stocked a tremendous amount of small press when it came out & a lot still remains in stock, not having sold for all these years, & the prices are often the original. for instance, Ive been able to pick up bob cobbing writer forum books for a couple dollars. worth a try, dont have their phone in front of me but could dig it up if need be. miekal ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 19:17:43 PDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: re : whalen/berrigan Content-Type: text/plain I've heard Anne Waldman & Joanne Kyger reminiscing about the demonstration, which they attended. Don't know anything else about it though, but apparently it did take place. -Mark DuCharme >If i'm not mistaken, Don Allen was working for Harcourt, Brace briefly and >saw On Bear's Head thru the press there. And I'm almost certain there was a >demonstration at the publishers, I wasn't there but Steve Jonas, or Joe >Dunn, or Bill Corbett or Tom Lux might have been. > >billy little >4 song st. >nowhere, b.c. V0R1Z0 > >ah! those strange people who have the courage to be unhappy! >Are they unhappy, by the way? > > Alice James > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 07:05:45 +0000 Reply-To: toddbaron@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron /*/ ReMap Subject: Re: RIBOT conference Comments: To: arshile@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit mark: LA needs to be held in contemp--as does ever other major city in the world! A query as to "does a poetics exist there" is a valid question--always! You need not defend--only answer-- and such n answer true wold be "a growing one"--but surely not a defensive one. Todd Baron ReMap ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 01:08:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Jargon books Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hank: Tom Meyer is one of the best-hidden secrets of US poetry. I met him i= n the late sixties when we were undergraduates at Bard College, & Tom very much enthralled with Robert Kelly ('s work). I, young rimbaldian european always down at Adolf's bar trying to dis-adjust my d=E9r=E8glement of all the senses, was amazed at Tom's absolute seriousness as a poet even then: he would write solidly a number of hours a day, working on a long, long work (never published as such, though a few excerpts did appear in mags) called, if memory serves, _A Typographical(?) Typography in Progress_. Meeting Basi= l Bunting soon after the dogdays of the Bardo Thodol, got him to trim the wor= k to a perfect lyric: his ear is one of the very best I have encountered. His choice to publish (nearly exclusively) with Jargon Press (he & Jonathan Williams have been companions for many years) has meant a number of lovely= , and lovingly produced but rather well-hidden books over the last 25 years =8B besides those you mention, try to get ahold of _Staves Calends Legends_ and _The Umbrellas of Aesculapius_, both also from Jargon. Also, from St Lazair= e Press, _Tom Writes This For Robert To Read_ (I still have a few copies of that, shld you/anyone be interested.) Last time I talked to him he was working on an opera libretto. Meyer is a tremendous poet whose work deserve= s to be much, much better known =8B though maybe Tom himself would prefer his readers to discover his work the way you just did =8B=A0& wld excoriate this my public running off at the email-mouth. 'Nuff said, on this, Charlie Parker's birthday, -- Pierre =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Pierre Joris joris@csc.albany.edu 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 tel: 518 426 0433 fax: 518 426 3722 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D It is an absent Anerica whose presence is at stake =8B Robin Blaser =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ---------- >From: Hank Lazer >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: Jargon books >Date: Sat, Aug 29, 1998, 2:22 PM > >Dear List-lings: > >I was in Asheville (NC) a couple of months ago, and stumbled across >a couple of excellent used/rare bookstores. Among other things, I >picked up two Jargon books by Thomas Meyer: THE BANG BOOK (Jargon >69, 1071 - A tale of the Old West), and SAPPHO'S RAFT (Jargon 99, >1982). As expected, these are gorgeous books. Can anyone help me >out: who is/was Thomas Meyer? > >And, on Jargon books, another request for help (back-channel, I >suppose): can anyone help me locate (for purchase) an affordable >copy of Larry Eigner's ON MY EYES (Jargon 36, 1960)? > >I've seen bits and pieces of this book--there is a good selection in >Larry's SELECTED POEMS--and I'm becoming convinced that this book is >a neglected masterpiece. I've located one copy for sale, but at $250 >it's way out of my league. Any help finding an affordable copy would >be appreciated. > >Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 22:41:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tosh Subject: RIBOT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >mark: > >LA needs to be held in contemp--as does ever other major city in the >world! A query as to "does a poetics exist there" is a valid >question--always! You need not defend--only answer-- and such n answer >true wold be "a growing one"--but surely not a defensive one. > > My feelings are that in the near future (if not already) it doesn't matter if poetics exist here or there - due to the magnificant power of the computer. The internet has pretty much destroyed geography boundries - for those who have it of course. Perhaps it is a matter of time (perhaps seconds) where all cities can be hooked up. I don't think it will be a matter of major or 'minor' cities. I think the difference will be deleted. Although I don't understand what it means to (for a city) 'be held in contempt.' ----------------- Tosh Berman TamTam Books ---------------- ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:06:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Jargon books In-Reply-To: <199808300506.BAA19861@sarah.albany.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Pierre--One for me, please. Let me know the terms. My snailmail is PO Box 40537/ San Diego CA 92164. Also, from St Lazaire >Press, _Tom Writes This For Robert To Read_ (I still have a few copies of >that, shld you/anyone be interested.) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:10:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Oops. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 29 Aug 1998 23:55:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Mr.Kent's inviting letter Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dear me Mr.Kent, how can I thank you for your inviting letter. Inasmuch as it was a response to my dramatic catalog, "Brainwashed Sudanese Poet," let me move rapidly to make you sure it was really not much about my ignorance of my home land nearly so much as it was about bad writing. The eponymous person was born of that phrase, nothing more or less than what the Dr.Griemass has called an _actant_ , for the phrase that it was born of was driving the camels of my mind from the tents of my soul, if I may to place it in your language. Only to sit, take up dried-dung stick, indite, relieved. Some lesser-sized hope beat in my br, er, breasts, that the easy ironies of those wielding it shall lessen their accessibilities. Are you Mr.Kent author of poem concluding the poor live on the moon as of the Double Flowering poet with the name difficult to us of my country? I am holding converse with your sister-in-law at the local well and it is of our children we speak, and our writings. How sad if our children are being exploded or even inured with Crude missiles! Then is one likely to come off it tone-wise, and injure our art with longings. My indignation has rocks in its mouth to please an old Greek. I am being compared to a Brit if you please. Are you terrorista ? But to me it is seeming badwriting has some approach hopefulness to surviving language through cliche war for the words sentenced to death. It is like the straw camel that hides the active participant. Are you able to think like I or do we have to kill one another, and all the shades of gray from cat to camel in between, there, there is our topos. I am soon to learn the employment of exclamation marks, those punctiliousnesses that resemble falling bombs, and might well be appended to the exclaims of those agonized thereof. Secondarily, as you write, byproducts of badwriting entail minute examinations of how one is spelling his writing, so as better to make certain all mistakes are intentional in the eye of the reader (his other eye lost for the underdeclared war). Because all this is exemplary, Mr. Kent (may I be calling you Clark?), we would like you to be head of conference on badwriting to be held at an authentic address, For-a-Song Sheet, Nowhere, Before Christ, The World, The Universe. Little pains will be lost to render you hospitable in our entertainments. I do not myself look forward to the time when I master better the English tongue and write like everybody else. But it must come to all us, in our obscureness. Again, I am of no nation except it be textual. I am like the poor living on the moon, full of moonshine. America, however, is full of blades of glass. Davood. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 00:15:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Re : Last Call Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Dave Baratier and other interested parties : And I am dumb to hmm the hmm hmm ing worms/ at what hmm hmm hmm my own win ding sheet, + , before the children green and golden/ follow him out of grace, (I paraphrase, I expect), are two Dylan Thomas bits that are brought to mind by Chris Stroffolino's lines, the last 3 you quote. David PS Not to say that these noted connections are not madly subjective off course ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 03:37:59 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: Thanks for Klingon In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII scott is a spound poet trust him kevlar |-------------------------------------------------------------| | And the near future when I'll shut up again, | | utterly baffled by these poems. | | Jacques Roubaud | |-------------------------------------------------------------| ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 03:52:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: capilano review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII >For Immediate Release > >Event date, Tokyo, Japan: September - October 1998 >Event date, Vancouver: September 27, 1998 >Contact: Carol L. Hamshaw >984-1712, 904-9362 > > >The Capilano Review travels to Tokyo, Japan > For the first time in its over 25 year history, acclaimed literary >journal The Capilano Review, will be launching its next issue outside of >the country--outside of North America, in fact. > The launch takes place at the Canadian Embassy Gallery, Tokyo in >conjunction with the exhibition of artist and writer Pierre Coupey's >Notations, September to October, 1998. Requiem Notations I -IX, the core >selection of this exhibition, will be published in the upcoming issue of >The Capilano Review, 2:26, due out in October of this year. > Requiem Notations I -IX brings together Coupey's artistic dual >focus in poetry and visual art. This elegiac work, dedicated to his >parents, explores memory and family and combines Coupey's well known visual >talents and his equally established reputation as a poet. > Coupey's works will be exhibited locally in June - July, 1999, at >the Evergreen Cultural Centre. For a preview, visit The Capilano Review >booth at The Word on the Street Festival, September 27, 1998 at Library >Square. Sign up for a subscription or order a copy of Issue 2:26 in >advance. > >- 30 - > >Carol L. Hamshaw >Managing Editor >The Capilano Review >2055 Purcell Way >North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H5 >604-984-1712 >www.capcollege.bc.ca/dept/TCR > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:06:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "k.a. hehir" Subject: Re: the write to a bad language In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i am catching up on back messages but, i would suggest walter Ong. right now i am trying to messure the distance between ong's theories of "primary oral culture" and j. rothenburg's work in "technicians of the sacred" this may be a little front channel for you all but advice and suggestions always welcome through the back ps. i'm sure there are spelling errors all the way through. again, kevin ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 06:38:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Tom Meyer Comments: cc: Hank Lazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hank, Tom Meyer is the significant other in Jonathon Williams life, having been such since 27 September 1968 (happy 30th, guys!) as well as a fine lyric poet in his own right. That date is established by the footnote to the "Classified Advertisement" at the end of _The Loco Logodaedalist in Situ_ (Cape Goliard/Grossman). Tom was a student of Robert Kelly's at Bard when I first met him, which was maybe two years before that. One of his early writing projects (long since abandoned) was called a _Technographic Typography_ an endless poem that was several hundred pages by the time Tom was 20 or thereabouts. It was an attempt to include everything and the idea behind has stuck in _my_ head ever since. A Fragment of Graph 42 appeared in the fourth issue of Tottel's, July 1971. (There were other Kelly students,John Gorham and David Kelly, in those early issues, in addition to Robert himself and several compadres like Irby, Marlatt and Rothenberg, tho the first "single person" issue, #3, was for Rae Armantrout, and the first person in the first issue was David Bromige--as you can see my editorial instincts have been somewhat constant over the years.) Tom's published several books over the years, but living away from the major cities has I think made him far less well known than he deserves to be. Ron ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 14:16:49 CST6CDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Organization: The University of Alabama Subject: Re: Tom Meyer Thanks to Ron, Keith, Pierre, and Bill for the generous, helpful information on Tom Meyer. Yet another in the too long list of excellent neglected poets of our time.... In that vein, my personal hobbyhorse these days is Ted Enslin--I think Ted has as fine an ear, as interesting a musicality as anyone writing today. Mark Nowak has edited Ted's Selected Poems (which Burt Hatlen swears the National Poetry Foundation will publish this Fall). Those on the West Coast will have a chance to hear Ted read this October. I don't know precise dates and details of his West Coast reading tour. Perhaps Dodie may know? Not to be be missed. As for those hard to find Jargon books, I still have no (affordable) leads on Larry Eigner's ON MY EYES. As you scour used bookstores, please keep me in mind & backchannel if you stumble across a copy. Thanks. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:57:27 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dorothy Trujillo Subject: Pete Hautman Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does anyone on this list know how to contact Pete Hautman---email or publisher or other? He is a mystery novelist who writes, to my mind, like a cross between Douglas Woolf and a contempt-free Charles Willeford. Thanks, and please back-channel this to me. Best, Dorothy Trujillo Lusk ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:18:08 +0000 Reply-To: robert.archambeau@englund.lu.se Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Archambeau Organization: Lund University Subject: The Ubiquitous Bowering Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Bowering File: Further Evidence. Within a day of arriving here in Lund, Sweden, I was informed of George Bowering's infamous doings at the Grand Hotel some years back. Lo these many years gone by, the Swedes remember it all in lurid detail. George: can you confirm or deny? Bob Archambeau ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:04:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Wallace Subject: mapping the Ashbery influence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I've been following the exchange between Jacques and Gary (and now Susan) with a lot of interest. While I agree that it's not so easy to separate what constitutes an 'academic' from a 'poetic' move (much less a 'critical' from a 'poetic' one) I think I see in Gary's post a much more serious undercurrent than simply the idea that to categorize is to academize, and I'm glad he's taken it on. The point I'd like to suggest is that while categorization of some kind is going on in any kind of critical distinction (and that most of us are making such distinctions all the time), the issue has to do not only with questioning how the categories are constructed, but also with the implications they have for the issue of resources in the publishing world, who gets them and why. So the problem is not simply categorization, but the places and ways in which these categorizations get taken to be AUTHORITATIVE categorizations, and by who, and what happens when they get taken as authoritative. One of Gary's concerns, re the Talisman anthology for instance, is that the anthology, because it calls itself an anthology and because of the WAY that it calls itself an anthology, will be seen as an authoritative decision of whose work is worthy of further attention, when of course it represents nothing more (and nothing less!) than the decisions that Lisa, Leonard, and Chris made together or semi-together about the poets whose work they wanted to feature. I don't mind Jacques' characterizations very much (even though I don't entirely buy them) simply because he, and the context, make it perfectly clear that his argument is simply his attempt at categorizing a context, no more or less than that, although I suppose I'd find it troubling if I thought that Jacques was unconsciously accepting some sort of external opinion as authoritative, which I don't really think he IS doing. We'd have to discuss next, I suppose, the extent to which a New York Times article is taken (and by who) to be authoritative, and the extent to which an anthology is taken (and by who) to be authoritative. I agree absolutely with Gary that the Talisman anthology should have no more authority, say, than any other issue of the Talisman magazine--although I bet the anthology gets stocked in more stores simply and only because it labels itself an anthology. And I don't doubt for a second that Ed Foster, who puts a tremendous amount of labor into Talisman, knew that calling it an anthology might help it sell more copies, because he's obviously got to sell some of these books somehow if he's going to stay in business. And I for one WANT him to stay in business. But then I'd want to go even further and say that the Poems from the Millenium anthology, or the Norton anthologies, are themselves no more authoritative than than the Talisman anthology, while at the same time I KNOW they are taken as such in most academic and publishing contexts. Given the current state of the publishing industry (and the extent to which the American population takes the pronouncements of business AS authority), the question becomes not how to avoid authority and its potential misuse (which we're not going to be able to) but how to DEAL with it. The problem then is one of authority as it is reflected by the process of categorization. Being in the Norton anthology probably means very little relative to the quality of one's work (and "quality" itself will obviously fall apart on ideological grounds), but if you're alive, you can be certain that being in Norton means potentiallly a lot in terms of resources for your work, chances for exposure, who will publish you, etc. Do such things matter to the creation of poetry? Whether or not they seriously impact one's ability to write (and some would insist they do and others insist they don't) they CERTAINLY impact how influence is perceived. And they certainly influence HOW one is influenced, since you can't be influenced by what you don't know exists. So, is John Ashbery "influential" because many younger writers have been influenced by him? Have they been influenced by him because it's easier to find out about him than, say, Tom Raworth, whose work has greatly influenced me (as has the work of many other writers)? Do they simply APPEAR to be influenced by Ashbery because other equally strong influences are harder to locate in people's writing? While all of the above seem possible for differing writers, the question I'd still want to ask is to what extent does the power of publishing itself help CREATE the Ashbery dynamic. Or put it this way: as poets we may have a great deal of power to choose our influences, but one of those influences is going to be the power of publishing resources to enable the idea of central influences. And this problem requires us to examine very closely how the publishing industry does enable this idea of central influences, and how we can either choose to accept or resist the dynamics that it puts in play. The recent 100 best books list, for instance, was a business SCAM; but even as such, it's reached vastly more people, sadly, than anything Gary or Jacques have said. Mark Wallace /----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | | | mdw@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu | | GWU: | | http://gwis2.circ.gwu.edu/~mdw | | EPC: | | http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/authors/wallace | |____________________________________________________________________________| ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:31:05 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: henry gould Subject: Re: mapping the Ashbery influence In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 31 Aug 1998 11:04:55 -0400 from THE STORY OF THE HOLOGIES Once upon a pond there was a little family of frogs called the Hologies. There was Aunt Hology and Uncle Hology and lots of lil Hologies called Diurnal Kid Hologies. They were a big happy bunch of yappers indeed, until one day Aunt Hology said to Uncle Hology: "Why Unkie, is there anyone outside the pond that even knows we exist? Huh?" Uncle Hology scratched his left apology & said: "Why Auntie, I just don't know! Let's build a big pond-pole & look way out yonder & see if anybody sees or knows us!" So Aunt Hology & Uncle Hology & all the Diurnal Kid Hologies began to gather suet & phone books at the center of the pond. They were a darn clever bunch of Hologies indeed! They piled up the phone books & held them together with suet, wouldn't you know! Until they made a pond pole that almost reached up to a low-flying stealth crow named Biff (more about him in another book, kids!). Auntie Hology said to Unkie Hology: "Gee, Unkie, that's a tall pole! Are you going to climb that yourself?" Unkie scratched his right apology & said, "Why no - I'm too big & heavy! I'll send up little Nippy Hology, our favorite kid!" So good little Nippy started to climb. He climbed & climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed and so on and climbed and climbed and climbed and climbed some more and climbed and climbed, to the very top of that pond pole, until Aunt Hology & Uncle Hology couldn't even see him anymore! Unk Hology shouted up - "Nippy! Can you see anything?" No reply. "Nippy, you up there?" No reply. Uncle & Auntie Hology were beginning to get concerned about little Nippy when suddenly who did they see but Biff the stealth crow, holding Nippy by his shirt collar in his big black beak & flapping off toward the southwest! - to be continued - - Jack Spandrift ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:48:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Burt Hatlen Organization: University of Maine Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 28 Aug 1998 to 29 Aug 1998 (#1998-47) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: >berrigan was not the only whalen booster. warsh wrote an essay on OBH. >waldman interviewed him and he taught at naropa in the early years. >coolidge as well was a big booster. >it would be great if a collected where issued-- maybe too much for a >small >press to handle I heard that Penguin was going to do a Whalen collected. Does anyone know if there is any truth to this rumor? Burt Hatlen ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:54:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: The Anxiety of Nonfluence, Or, Spicing it Up In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks to Mark Wallace for a very incisive and rich set of reflections, spinning off the Ashbery etc thread.... I would like to carry further some of his thoughts on publishing and the institutional context of poetry. First, i've just finished reading Poet Be Like God...I believe that Ellingham and Killian deserve a big-time ovation for a brilliant book, a book that is *useful* and informative, as well as thoughtful about a lot of the issues brought up by Jack Spicer's work and career. (Fun to read, too) It is some of those issues, that i think link up with point Mark W. has just been making. One of the most striking things about Spicer's life and career, which i think will in many ways grow in importance in time to come (as will the influence and ubiquity of his work) is his insistence on poetry and poetix as being constituted by the shared projects of a community. In a way, he almost completely dissolved for his own world the distinction between "the audience" and "the poets", replacing it with a more demanding and fierce idea, of a community to which people had a commitment. Thus his (seemingly bizarre) insistence that magazines and publishing projects with which he was associated, and his own published works, not be distributed outside the Bay Area. This gets into many other odd directions, such as his angry belief that Duncan had "sold out" for money, because of having national acclaim of a sort and nationally-distributed books. (i found this part especially bemusing, as one can just imagine what "big bucks" RD was getting from his New Directions sales in the first few years of the '60s!) The point is, that there are ways of thinking about the ongoing activities of poetry, which confront the extremely corrupt nexus of publishing-academe-middlebrow PR that seems so hopeless and destructive to me. I don't advocate folks refusing to publish or distribute outside their own city; but i take Spicer's deliberately "quixotic" approach as a kind of challenge and inspiration. Many of the most vital ongoing approaches to poetry distribution/reception/support right now, have some of the same insistence on the guerilla dimensions of liliputian resistence/lilliputian creativity. Small xeroxial mags and similar "fugitive" forms; a strong emphasis in some cities on local exchange of work and readings and discussion meetings; the highly creative and beautiful work the small presses have been doing. There are even several quasi-magazines, distributed only to their contributors, which are a sort of workshop/collective space, for poets who share similar interests and directions. This latter phenomenon seems to be consciously based on the Spicer circle's Open Space project. I believe that even the emergence of a really fine poet *who has no body or legal biographical existence* (Araki Yasusada) is in part one form of resistence to contemporary publishing/careerism patterns. In this respect, Yasusada's ghostly career shares certain dynamix with the striking emergence (in the last 15 years) of *collaboration* as a major mode of poetic activity in the U.S. This also is a way in which the work is given its own right to live, within a self-evolving community; like Yasusada, creating and publishing collaborative work turns the attention away from a fetishized Poet as celebrity/personality; and like Spicer's mad imaginings, it foregrounds poetic community within an ideal of fiercely-committed collective practice. Mark Prejsnar @lanta ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 12:58:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: talkin to me? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Love that Pepsi cap game! But Mark, do you really only write for the community of poets? Even if that would work with Tim Davis's rewrite of Stein ("I write for myself and strangeness" -- or maybe Tim stole someone else's rewrite?), wouldn't you want to get out some time? Talk to other people, have other people listen to you? I don't think democracy is especially well-served by communities breaking down into hermetic units, actually. You need news, from here and abroad (and I'm not _only_ speaking about genetics). Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:28:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Hermes Tries Majestically In-Reply-To: <01bdd500$990686e0$3fcf54a6@blwczoty> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII If you take a look at the influence Duncan, Spicer and others have had, you'll see the fallacy of your way of putting it... To challenge through alternative structure *need not* be "breaking down into hermetic units".... On Mon, 31 Aug 1998, Jordan Davis wrote: > Love that Pepsi cap game! > > But Mark, do you really only write for the community of poets? Even if that > would work with Tim Davis's rewrite of Stein ("I write for myself and > strangeness" -- or maybe Tim stole someone else's rewrite?), wouldn't you > want to get out some time? Talk to other people, have other people listen to > you? > > I don't think democracy is especially well-served by communities breaking > down into hermetic units, actually. You need news, from here and abroad (and > I'm not _only_ speaking about genetics). > > Jordan > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 13:48:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jordan Davis Subject: encoded heterosexism colonizes the future apologetically MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My apologies for the "strangeness" of my reply to Mark -- aside to Todd, the Self is very important for accountability and apology, no? -- it is an unsettled issue, what genetics would have to do with poetry -- in the context of Duncan's and Spicer's ideas of community it must have sounded like a threateningly heterosexist remark -- it's just that "unacceptable" O'Hara in me (winking so hard I look weird), making me think that a community is always involved with the communities around it whether or not it makes any sense or does anybody any good -- but then my name ain't Francis -- my name Attilla -- Jordan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:06:39 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: What's there is there. I'm here . . . MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Last Exit to Multiplicity or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying & Love the Bottomless Cusp for Jacques, Jordan, Chris, Susan, Henry, David, David, Mark y Mark y Mark & anyone else who wants it "To speak is to appear as a continuum" --Daniel Davidson "There isn't room for absolution" --Sheila E. Murphy "Countless are the beauties of land & sea we've already seen, shining brilliantly in the light of our eyes" --Gary Sullivan "Perception's gifts are too numerous to explain" --Laurie Price "eternity is a burning intimacy" --Drew Gardner What I mean to say is, "To begin with, I could have slept with all of the people in the poems." (Spicer) In other words, "But they're not perfect he said. They're never perfect. There's always something missing." (Di Prima) And, "I begin to copy my favorite pornography books and become the main person in each of them." (Acker) What about the anxiety of the influencial? "But after being photographed alongside of me,/ you throw me back. Afraid of what I'd do/ inside of you?" (Stroffolino) The anxiety of the would-be-influential and those who mediate for them is palpable today: Every other call in my office from some desperate media hack wanting to speak with a Columbia History specialist in Modern British History to give their sad little made-for-TV Diana-narrative credibility. When you refuse to help them, they become vicious, threaten to call your supervisor, the Dean, get you removed from your job, "Don't you know who I am? Ned Fergeshnurgh of NBC!" You can almost feel the sores in Ned's stomach bleeding. "Not Me" means not necessarily a turn towards hermeticism. Did it for Eileen? If I is another, I is not just any other. The self, whether considered as construct or consumation, makes itself felt, presently, as specifically made manifest: A Glimpse There is a knot in the middle of my head that will never be untied. Two monkeys sit there, one on the right turned toward me, the other crouched and turned away. They have red hair and do not play with their chains. But sit on a ledge above Venice? anyway a city with canals painted by Breughel, I see them in a mirror when I look for my own face. (John Wieners) from As If We Could Ever Be Interested in What's between the Points of Interest: I thought that what I thought was more like What I felt than what I did was. But I thought (or felt) that others would think that what I did Was more like what I felt (and mattered more) Than what I thought was. And dressing up like my Superego when it thinks the only things that matter Are in me, they yell. "Hey, pig, cripple, Mr. Substance- But-No-Style, Mr. Signifyin' Monkee." having got my Number by the balls, but I was too busy pretending I was too busy to listen. (Chris Stroffolino) If I am what I read then I am everything I've read, am reading, will read. At least. And cultural neglect might allow the poet to say more than patronage: from Song of the Cut-Price Poets: To the shafts of your wagons sunk deep in blood and mire Time and again we harnessed our splendid words Called your huge slaughteryards Fields of Honour True steel, trusty companions your bloodstained swords. (Bertolt Brecht) from Allowance Money that Is Death to You: I hold my tongue until sanity goes on strike And stinks up the place with saints That threaten to dub you satan until vexed By breathing past the treelines of martyrdom Into the silence that's really the next poem Unless you can stir the clouds out without the coffee Raining up into your face on a swing casting shadows (Chris Stroffolino) And given everything, why not say everything, include everything? There is no reason, in our poems, to be monogamists. There is every reason in the world not to be. Each, and each And . . . To be continued as the day wears on . . . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:06:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAYHEW Subject: poetic careerism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Following recent posts by Mark, Mark, Gary, Jordan, et al... Can a poet control who is reading him or her and how? It seems to me that the issue of the poet constructing a career or anti-career in a self-conscious way becomes important because it gives the illusion that the poet is in control of a process of reception that is actually uncontrollable. There is the "coterie" poet, given a positive meaning in Spicer. There is the O'Hara model of casual indifference (or pretence of). Then there is Berrigan's approach, seen in the poem "Something amazing just happened," in which he recounts a dream: "Mr. Berrigan, he says, & without waiting for an answer goes on, / I'm happy to be able to inform you that your request for a Guggenheim Foundation Grant / Has been favorably received by the committee, & approved. When would you like to leave?" I don't mean to stigmatize or ridicule any of these approaches to "career," (or negation thereof) just to suggest that they are all responses to the same impossible situation. Celan suggested the poem was a "message in a bottle." Jonathan Mayhew Department of Spanish and Portuguese University of Kansas jmayhew@ukans.edu (785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 15:36:53 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Henry Gould Subject: Re: poetic careerism In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 31 Aug 1998 14:06:37 -0500 from Making poetry is always an address to an audience, a conversation - at the same time it is a process of the individual separating out from group ways of responding & cliches - at the same time it is a response to the models & heroes of tradition. So it is action at a distance in the quantum sense as well as a present, contemporary predicament. This DOES seem like an impossible, contradictory situation, until you remember that the reason people start making art in the 1st place is that it seems a process of tapping into a living energy - a vitality that makes the distinctions of past & present, near & distant, seem less absolute. There is this uncanny aspect of revitalizing dead voices & past or distant traditions - the model is resurrection - everything brought into the present in some way - the present of the poem... so tendencies leaning toward pure careerism or pure technique or pure antiquarianism seem more like weaknesses than strengths in the long run - Celan's "message in a bottle" aphorism came from Mandelstam, most probably (see M's essay "On the Interlocutor"). Celan also has this curious approach (in his hard-to-follow prose) to the poet as anti- or post-artist - this may relate to the "vatic / craftsperson" continuum; we look to poetry not only for poetry-in-itself but for the poet who absorbs all existence - cosmic, historical, moral - & turns it into poetry - this again is that uncanny aspect, of art transcending itself (via experience & humility) - & it doesn't have to be a grandiose thing - but integral to the poem's stance & voice(s) - - Henry Gould ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 16:01:12 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Erik Sweet Subject: pets and sparks...money losing my teeth again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit the pets around here are sometimes kicked by mean kids "hey stop" and the sparks fly when diamonds step up to eat hamburgers and the small people sometimes beat up the larger ones jordan davis is only an image of the real jordan i met who juggled ferrets and ate money and i'm telling you people that man Derrida is actually Mel Blanc. erik sweet ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:15:49 +0000 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: The New Web, Inc Subject: Re: Last Call MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't think that connection is far off. Chris, I'm looking up the fall song I think it might be My new house off of _This Nation's Saving Grace_ This is for db3, Gary, George, Jordan, cs, & anyone else to enjoy-- Seattle Police responded yesterday in the early morning hours to a complaint that a man was attempting to use a rubber hose to siphon and steal gasoline from an RV parked downtown. Police arrived on the scene to find the man curled up on the ground vomiting profusely. Evidently there were several tank outlets on the RV and the man had inadvertantly hooked his siphon hose up to the sewage tank of the RV. The owner, who was asleep inside at the time and woken up by the ruckus, refused to press any charges stating that it was absolutely the best laugh he had ever had in his life. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:39:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Golumbia Subject: Re: Last Call Comments: To: baratier@megsinet.net In-Reply-To: <35EADA40.4BF5B479@megsinet.net> from "David Baratier" at Aug 31, 98 05:15:49 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Didn't rign any bells for me either - and as an "official" contributor to the "fall lyrics parade," i have "authority." i can vouhc for this though: terry waite sez give us a ring gave us a ring, he did mr. big (note that many meaningless syllables should be inserted to cause this to scan-uh) but it could be my new house - there's a lot of nice things about it, keep away from my new house, according to the postman it's like the bleeding bank of england & god damn the pedantic Welsh David Baratier wrote: > > I don't think that connection is far off. Chris, I'm looking up the fall > song I think it might be My new house off of _This Nation's Saving > Grace_ This is for db3, Gary, George, Jordan, cs, & anyone else to -- dgolumbi@sas.upenn.edu David Golumbia ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:36:24 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: Cheering Thought In-Reply-To: <199808312139.RAA20225@mail1.sas.upenn.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In regard to the often cloying obligato about "web communities," e-communities etc etc, the AP proffers teh following: "The more hours people spend on the Internet, the more depressed, stressed and lonely they feel, according to a groundbreaking study that surprised its authors. Internet use had the same effect even for people who spent most of their time in such social activiites as chat rooms or exchanging e-mail, said the study headed by Robert Kraut, a social psychology professor at Carnegie Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh. Sociable users end up feeling just as isolated as users who spent more time crawling the Web for information, Kraut said Sunday. One reason for the negative effect might have been that using the Internet left less time for the deeper relationships of friends and family, Kraut suggested. 'People are substituting weaker social ties for stronger ones,' he said. 'They're substituting conversations on narrower topics with strangers for conversations with people who are connected to their life.' It was the first study to examine the emotional impact of people's Internet use over time, Kraut said. The findings contradicted the researchers' expectations." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 17:01:54 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: Cheering Thought In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" As a veteran reader of social science research I'm always a little sceptical, and only a reading of the protocols for the study would answer my specific concerns. A favorite of mine was a study that purported to find that epileptics are stranger than other people even between seizures. The researcher suggested in his conclusion that there might be undetected brain-wave abnormalities present. Of course, despite the well-known side effects of most anti-spasmodics he didn't differentiate in his tiny sample between those on medication and those not. Nor did he take into account the impact of the stress caused by the expectation of seizures or the prejudice against people who sometimes demonstrate showy symptoms in public. Then there's the one I'm sure everyone on the list remembers that purported to demonstrate that if you went to the writing program at Iowa you were in danger of becoming manic-depressive, or the recent one that claimed that younger siblings are more likely to be revolutionaries than the eldest child. Here, it would be nice to know how depression was diagnosed, how the control group was constituted, and if, perhaps, more depressed people with fewer social ties were more likely to resort to the internet. In other words, did the internet make them depressed or did depression make them log on? Kind of like asking if coughing causes TB or the other way around. But Professor Kraut probably got tenure for this one. At 07:36 PM 8/31/98 -0400, you wrote: >In regard to the often cloying obligato about "web communities," >e-communities etc etc, the AP proffers teh following: > >"The more hours people spend on the Internet, the more depressed, stressed >and lonely they feel, according to a groundbreaking study that surprised >its authors. > >Internet use had the same effect even for people who spent most of their >time in such social activiites as chat rooms or exchanging e-mail, said >the study headed by Robert Kraut, a social psychology professor at >Carnegie Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh. > >Sociable users end up feeling just as isolated as users who spent more >time crawling the Web for information, Kraut said Sunday. > >One reason for the negative effect might have been that using the Internet >left less time for the deeper relationships of friends and family, Kraut >suggested. > >'People are substituting weaker social ties for stronger ones,' he said. >'They're substituting conversations on narrower topics with strangers for >conversations with people who are connected to their life.' > >It was the first study to examine the emotional impact of people's >Internet use over time, Kraut said. > >The findings contradicted the researchers' expectations." > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:55:45 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Laura E. Wright" Subject: Re: Cheering Thought And Location MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This takes us back to location: the internet as location rather than activity/passivity. Where are we when we are here? I think Alan Sondheim's work is situated somewhat in this "site." It's a pretty new "place" and that may be what makes his work difficult to many of us? Nothing wrong with depression, either, Laura Mark Weiss wrote: > As a veteran reader of social science research I'm always a little > sceptical, and only a reading of the protocols for the study would answer > my specific concerns. A favorite of mine was a study that purported to find > that epileptics are stranger than other people even between seizures. The > researcher suggested in his conclusion that there might be undetected > brain-wave abnormalities present. Of course, despite the well-known side > effects of most anti-spasmodics he didn't differentiate in his tiny sample > between those on medication and those not. Nor did he take into account the > impact of the stress caused by the expectation of seizures or the prejudice > against people who sometimes demonstrate showy symptoms in public. > Then there's the one I'm sure everyone on the list remembers that purported > to demonstrate that if you went to the writing program at Iowa you were in > danger of becoming manic-depressive, or the recent one that claimed that > younger siblings are more likely to be revolutionaries than the eldest child. > Here, it would be nice to know how depression was diagnosed, how the > control group was constituted, and if, perhaps, more depressed people with > fewer social ties were more likely to resort to the internet. In other > words, did the internet make them depressed or did depression make them log > on? Kind of like asking if coughing causes TB or the other way around. But > Professor Kraut probably got tenure for this one. > > At 07:36 PM 8/31/98 -0400, you wrote: > >In regard to the often cloying obligato about "web communities," > >e-communities etc etc, the AP proffers teh following: > > > >"The more hours people spend on the Internet, the more depressed, stressed > >and lonely they feel, according to a groundbreaking study that surprised > >its authors. > > > >Internet use had the same effect even for people who spent most of their > >time in such social activiites as chat rooms or exchanging e-mail, said > >the study headed by Robert Kraut, a social psychology professor at > >Carnegie Mellon Institute in Pittsburgh. > > > >Sociable users end up feeling just as isolated as users who spent more > >time crawling the Web for information, Kraut said Sunday. > > > >One reason for the negative effect might have been that using the Internet > >left less time for the deeper relationships of friends and family, Kraut > >suggested. > > > >'People are substituting weaker social ties for stronger ones,' he said. > >'They're substituting conversations on narrower topics with strangers for > >conversations with people who are connected to their life.' > > > >It was the first study to examine the emotional impact of people's > >Internet use over time, Kraut said. > > > >The findings contradicted the researchers' expectations." > > > > -- Laura Wright Library Assistant Allen Ginsberg Library, The Naropa Institute 2130 Arapahoe Ave Boulder, CO 80302 (303) 546-3547 * * * * * * "All music is music..." -- Ted Berrigan * * * * * * "It is very much like it" -- Gertrude Stein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 18:09:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: david bromige Subject: Sordid in Lund Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jag =1Br inte p=E5 Listen, darf=1Br ha jag fr=E5gte av Herr Professor David Bromige, om han ville vara s=E5 snell och p=E5ste en e-brev f=F8r mej. Ja,= det =1Br sant, jag har spielde med Herr Professor Bowering utan kl=1Bdning n=1Br han = har varte p=E5 Lund. Han var f=F8rsupnade som en =1Bkta fyllersvin, och han har upchuckade flera g=E5ngen. (Som "G" har gj=F8rde in hans b=D8k _Piccolo Mond= o_ [En Obetydlig V=1Brld--k=1Bpa den; fr=E5n Coach House Books, Toronto]). "Det= =1Br l=E5ng," han har sakte mej, p=E5 hans hemska svensk, "men det =1Br tr=1Btt. Godnatt." Han var obegriplig, som en oolichan, eller en gr=1Bng=1Bling. Det var sorglig, eh? Men jag har gl=1Bmte det (bara nu) och hittet en andra, b=1Bttre, man. Tak s=E5 mycket och hej p=E5 alla. Fysikalisk Arbeter Amanda =46j=1Bderhane. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:54:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Re: ascetic aesthetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The influence of Western Idealism on aesthetics is a big part of the problem. As a theory of pure mind, Idealism renounces the body as a corrupt and vulgar source of information/truth. Hence, the renouncing of pleasure as part of the aesthetic. Kantian aesthetics do not renounce pleasure, though. In the Analytic of the Beautiful that's all Kant talks about. >I have become interested recently in theories of aesthetics which >emphasize the renunciation of "pleasure." So far, I have seen this theme >in Kant, Adorno,Ortega, Bourdieu (who offers a critique of this tendency), >and a few others. If anyone can steer me to other classic instances of >this phenomenon (or to discussions of it) I would appreciate it. >Basically, the problem is the following: why do so many theories of >aesthetic "pleasure" emphasize askesis, or the renunciation of aesthetic >pleasure itself? > >By the way, Fray Luis de Leon was not a medieval poet, Henry. I don't know >that he wrote a sonnet a day--his complete poetry is a fairly thin volume. >One of the heresies of which he was accused was the suggestion that it was >possible to improve upon the Latin translation of the bible (the vulgate). > >Jonathan Mayhew >Department of Spanish and Portuguese >University of Kansas >jmayhew@ukans.edu >(785) 864-3851 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 22:22:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Scott Pound Subject: Re: ascetic aesthetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Quote and query: I suspect the void Kristeva deals with in this essay >differs from that in the original query to the list, but I'll post it >anyway as I have a further question: > "In its most audacious moments current (Lacanian) psychoanalytic >theory proposes a theory of the subject as a divided unity which arises >from and is determined by lack (void, nothingness, zero, according to >the context) and engages in an unsatisfied quest for the impossible, >represented by metonymic desire." - The subject in process from _The Tel >Quel Reader. > >My question is what does "metonymic" mean here? I'm baffled or am I >just in an end of summer heatwave funk/ > >tom bell Metonymic, as Lacan used it in relation to desire, could mean 'serial'. Lacan proposed that desire proliferated in "metonymic chains", series of objects related contiguously rather than essentially. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:15:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: KENT JOHNSON Organization: Highland Community College Subject: (Fwd) To say again: Will you come to Khartoum? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Self To: kjohnson Subject: To say again: Will you come to Khartoum? Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 21:01:58 -0500 Dear Mr. Davood: Please excuse me for writing wrongly your name. Perhaps I could repent it was my spell-check. But sadly, thus, it is my dwelling in circles beneath your demonstrations of methods. Oh, do not think it is easy to say this, nor is it to shovel toward the upward, I think. No, sirree. Indignation has rocks in its mouth to please a Greek. Here in Sudan, children suck on them. Please excuse my bad writing. In any cases, of course the truly poor live on the moon, Mr. Davood. Do you doubt it? They build their writing huts, especially and charmingly, in craters dug by exploded children. I know, of course, that some of the poor live also in Sebastopolo, but these would be, of the foreground, poor people of working kind, not like many other people living in Sebastopolo, some of which, my own blood tells me (my brother, that is), have on villa walls pretty blades of glass. "Well, ha, ha, privilege is the hothouse for irony," murmur Saudi caddies, their hair piled high like dark embassies. Consequently, thank God for this and for all of the things in the kingdom. Otherwise, where in the desert is laughter?(!) (Immediately I wish to plainly say: Please do not think me double-faced, for I cannot utter a lie: I, most like you, yet like many, have inherited a fortune from a chemical future. And perhaps, yes, a forked tongue is like a forking path. No difference what you take, you come sighing to one place. I'll bet not, but here I must say, OK, anyway, my logic has an apparition of breaking down.) Therefore, if I may interrupt my caravan of thinking with the allusions as they exist to ask the following: Please say best wishes to my sister-in-law at the health-spa. Thank you. Also, because my passion-point is translation (please remember this), here is a poem for machista men (erotic) by a man named Roque Dalton of the country of El Salvador. He was not killed by students of Green Beret, but by fellow-believers, at 40 years, in one Byzantium power struggle inside the terrorist circle: Toward A Better Love No one disputes that sex is a condition in the world of the couple: from there, tenderness and its wild branches. No one disputes that sex is a domestic condition: from there, kids, nights in common and days divided (he looking for bread in the street, in offices or factories; she in the rear-guard of domestic functions, in the strategy and tactic of the kitchen that allows survival in a common struggle at least to the end of the month). No one disputes that sex is an economic condition: it's enough to mention prostitution, fashion, the sections in the dailies that are only for her or only for him. Where the hassles begin is when a woman says sex is a political condition. Because when a woman says sex is a political condition she can begin to stop being a woman in herself in order to become a woman for herself, establishing the woman in woman from the basis of her humanity and not of her sex, knowing that the magic deodorant with a hint of lemon and soap that voluptuously caresses her skin are made by the same corporation that makes napalm knowing the labors of the home themselves are labors of a social class to which that home belongs, that the difference between the sexes burns much better in the loving depth of night when al those secrets that kept us masked and alien are revealed. ------------------ Needlessly to say to you, this poem would be totally banned by the Taliban. So no, no, we do not have to kill each other. But probably, as humans, we desire to. And our wandering letters, a thousand nights from now and one, shall be wondered about by initiates in the poesies of terrorism. If you will not doubt this, neither will I. In a direction of English speaking, therefore, why don't we just kill each other, baby? Like Arab-dubbed Wheel of Fortune, it shall be hand-clapping time. Still, without a chuckle, we should be friends, and you may be right: It is always one danger in this that bad writing, like a name, will hide behind itself. Perhaps I do this and perhaps not. Or perhaps sometimes I do this and sometimes not. Or perhaps I always do this and wish it were not. Or perhaps I usually never do this and wish it were so. Oh, wrap your night-sheathed arms around this paunchy belly, Mr. Davood, and ride with me. We may die of thirst, but together we must mark all the mirages as one, and thus on. Am I speaking in any sense to you? And if you wish to call me in my ear Mr. Kent, very well then, you may call me Mr. Kent. But only for the clicking sound that you love. For now we are inside a certain thing. A camel has been kicked. Will you come to Khartoum? ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 19:27:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: nico vassilakis Subject: Northwest Vispo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII An Exhibition of Northwest visual & concrete poetry Sept. 1 - 23 opening Sept. 13th 4-6pm at The Richard Hugo House 1634 eleventh Ave Seattle, WA 98122 including work by Maris Kundzins, Helen Lessick, Jim Clinefelter, Crag Hill, Nancy Burns, Heather McHugh, Paul Thaddeus Lambert, M.Kettner, C.C.Elian, Lex Loeb, Thomas Lowe Taylor, C.Bush, Dean Wynveen, Nico Vassilakis, Sloy,Brent Hendricks & others. curated by Nico Vassilakis ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 31 Aug 1998 20:55:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Kelley Subject: Re: ascetic aesthetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit How would this be different from Freudian association? > > >Metonymic, as Lacan used it in relation to desire, could mean 'serial'. >Lacan proposed that desire proliferated in "metonymic chains", series of >objects related contiguously rather than essentially. >