========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:52:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Creeley Subject: Tom Clarks biography of Ed Dorn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I'd like to call the attention of all present to an extraordinary (and momently to be published) biography (see below). [I'll also include an attachment of the same text for easy reference.] Edward Dorn and Tom Clark are altogether decisive presences in my own life. Ed was a companion when we were starting out, unremittingly brilliant, immensely gifted (Olson speaks of his handling of syllables as "Elizabethan"), a loner par excellence. Now Tom has written a deeply moving biography of Ed's life and no one could be more compassionate or more perceptive of his genius. Now and again someone tells the story of the life of another in such a way that it recovers the resonance, the manner, the fact of that person 'as if he were here'. This is such a book and Tom Clark its abiding spirit. Robert Creeley ------------------------- Edward Dorn: A World of Difference By Tom Clark North Atlantic Books (April 2002) $25.00 America’s poet of dissent and difference, of geography and distance, Edward Dorn (1929-1999) grew up in rural obscurity, Depression-era poverty and social estrangement as a dispossessed son of the Prairie. After initiating a critical involvement with new poetics in dialogue with his mentor Charles Olson at Black Mountain College in the 1950s, Dorn wandered the trans-mountain West following the variable winds of writing and casual employment until the mid-1960s, when a time of trial and change resulted in the beginnings of the groundbreaking long poem Gunslinger. Edward Dorn was a “culture morphologist,” a poet whose central achievement lies in his creative response, at once intuitive, emotional and analytic, to the complex meanings of places and the people who live upon them. His writing enacts a deep respect for and attention to the diverse landforms of his native country. In the work of no other American writer are the soul of the land and the soul of the poet so inextricably linked. In both prose and poetry Dorn’s sharp-eyed cultural critique goes hand in hand with a tender-hearted realism. The Dorn voice, unmistakable and evocative as the lonesome sounding of a far-off train whistle in the night, contributes a unique note to the literature of the second half of America’s Twentieth Century: “Earth is my home and I love it, as deeply when I wake and see it lit for me, and my hapless doings, as I do the graduating darkness when I withdraw with the day, an abandoned man....” This first biography by his longtime friend and fellow poet Tom Clark—author of previous biographies of Jack Kerouac, Ted Berrigan, Charles Olson and Robert Creeley—offers a record of Dorn’s life and work drawing upon fresh testimony, letters and unpublished manuscript material provided by surviving family members. “A poet among biographers and a biographer among poets, Clark is, and I use the adjective with maximal intent, a beautiful writer. What is the place of beauty in a biography? Or (the prior question) what is the place of beauty in a life? Clark’s work shows that he has thought about these questions, particularly as they regard the special shape of a writer’s life.” —Jack Miles, Los Angeles Times Available through Amazon.com or Barnes and Noble – or, best, at your local bookstore (in our case, Talking Leaves). ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:41:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: Carla Harryman info please MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi I need Carla Harryman's mailing address if you please. Please backchannel, of course. Thanks, Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:21:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Kuszai" Subject: En Mexicali y Tijuana Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN THE BAJA CALIFORNIA REGION THIS IS PROBABLY OF SOME INTEREST. > >En Mexicali y Tijuana >Realizan V Festival Internacional de Literatura Experimental > > + El evento contará con la presencia de Miki Guadamur y su concepto >de pop electrodoméstico >+ Regresa Doug Rice a Baja California para presentar su trabajo más >reciente >+ Bajo el concepto de Simulacrum, reúnen una muestra de poesía >visual, videopoesía, audiopoesía y arte postal >+ El festival se llevará a cabo una vez más en Mexicali y Tijuana sin >ningún costo para el público >+ Una excelente oportunidad para acercarse a la experimentación >literaria contemporánea > >14 países estarán representados en Simulacrum, V Festival >Internacional de Literatura Experimental > >El próximo viernes 1 y sábado 2 de marzo de 2002 se llevará a cabo >SIMULACRUM, el quinto festival de literatura experimental de la >oganización A. V. TEXT-FEST. El evento contará con la representación >de 14 países y la presencia de Miki Guadamur, Doug Rice, Octavia >Davis y Bill Marsh. > >El evento, organizado en Mexicali desde 1998 por Bibiana Padilla >Maltos, Alejandro Espinoza y Carlos Gutiérrez Vidal, cuenta este año >con el apoyo del Centro Cultural Tijuana y el Instituto de Cultura de >Baja California. Gracias a este esfuerzo conjunto se podrá realizar >una muestra de poesía visual y sonora, además de contar con la >presencia de los cuatro invitados en ambas ciudades. La sede del >evento en Mexicali será el Café Literario del Teatro del Estado, así >como la Sala de Video del Cecut en Tijuana. > >Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh fueron fundadores, junto con Joel Kuszai, >de Factory School (antes Sunbrella Network), un interesante proyecto >de colaboración interdisciplinaria en la WWW. En esta ocasión vienen >a presentar un proyecto hecho especialmente a partir de la idea del >simulacro. > >Doug Rice es uno de los escritores norteamericanos más controvertidos >y autor de Blood Of Mugwump. Su trabajo se caracteriza por un >tratamiento transautobiográfico, así como por el uso de una >mutagenesis sexual empleada como elemento estructurador del relato. >La obra de Rice trasciende toda voluntad representacional y >simbolismo literario, y apunta principalmente hacia una >hipertextualidad implícita. Esta es la segunda ocasión que Doug Rice >visita nuestro país, y SIMULACRUM será una excelente oportunidad para >que el público entre en contacto con una muestra de la literatura >norteamericana contemporánea más arriesgada e interesante. > >Miki Guadamur, músico, escritor y dibujante digital, es autor del >libro Generation Mex, publicado por la editorial Moho. Desde 1997 ha >venido desarrollando su concepto de pop electrodoméstico, realizando >presentaciones en galerías, bares y cantinas, así como durante >presentaciones de revistas, fanzines y exposiciones. Su trabajo sólo >puede tener lugar en un conjunto de escenarios tan ecléctico que >incluye, en el Distrito Federal, El Tecolote, Caja 2, El hoyo, las >instalaciones de la Comisión Nacional del Deporte, Causa Joven, la >discoteca Hysteria, el multiforo cultural Alicia, la 3a. Feria del >libro en el World Trade Center, el Bar Lulú, La panadería, la Casa >Refugio Citlaltépetl, la discobar Slava, DADA X y La Diabla; el Bar >Iguana, el Museo Estatal de Culturas Populares, la galería >Halicarnassus y la Facultad de Artes Visuales de la Universidad >Autónoma de Nuevo León, en Monterrey; el Museo de Arte Contemporáneo >de Lyon, y más recientemente en diversos espacios en la ciudad de >Viena. > >Asimismo se ha presentado en algunos medios electrónicos como Radio >Educación, Radioactivo, FrecuenciaTEC, el canal 28 de Monterrey, >RadioUNAM y canal 4 de Televisa. También ha actuado en dos >cortometrajes del CUEC, Vómito cuadrado y ¿Porqué se tardan tanto?, >participando en este último como co-protagonista. Acerca de su >trabajo, Miki Guadamur comenta en una entrevista publicada en La >Jornada el 22 de octubre de 2000: > >"Lo que hago es más cercano al pop Televisa que al rock mexicano, un >poco más retorcido... En el pop electrodoméstico mezclo pedazos de >canciones y hago unas nuevas, les meto otra melodía, rapeo, >sampleo... [...] Soy un entretenedor. Me satisfacen parcialmente los >actos que veo en Televisa y lo que veo en el underground convertido >en mainstream en los noventa no me satisface en lo absoluto... [...] >...combino todo: la literatura, las imágenes en video de mi >espectáculo y la música. [...] Miki es el personaje que está en el >escenario, es fantasioso, se viste de manera llamativa de acuerdo con >el tipo de idealización de la que hablo en mis canciones; es un poco >como Ziggi Starduts; Guadamur es la persona... [...] ...si soy un >Andy Warhol mexicano soy un Andy Warhol a la mitad." > >SIMULACRUM, V Festival de Literatura Experimental, se llevará a cabo >el viernes 1 de marzo en el Café Literario del Teatro del Estado, en >Mexicali, y el sábado 2 en la Sala de Video del Centro Cultural >Tijuana a partir de las 20:00 horas. > >SIMULACRUM reunirá una variada selección de trabajos, cuyas >características van del uso del video a la fotocopia, del arte postal >al hipertexto. > >La relación de autores por país se distribuye de la siguiente manera: > >ARGENTINA: Fabio Doctorovich. AUSTRALIA: Pete Spence. BRASIL: >Almandrade, Paulo Bacedonio, Avelino de Araujo, Roberto Keppler, >Dórian Ribas Marinho, Franklin Valverde. CANADÁ: David Fujino. CHILE: >Claudio Rodríguez Lanfranco. EL SALVADOR: Romeo Galdamez. ESPAÑA: >César Reglero Campos. ESTADOS UNIDOS: Brad Brace, David Baptiste >Chirot, Sheila Dollente, Sheppard Fairey, Allegra Fi Wakest, Bill >Marsh, mIEKAL, Harry Polkinhorn, Doug Rice, Nico Vassilakis. FRANCIA: >Stephane Pia, Cecile Touchon, ZAV. ITALIA: Vittore Baroni. MÉXICO: >Guillermo Díaz Coello, Alejandro Espinoza Galindo, Ricardo E. >Gonsalves, Carlos Adolfo Gutiérrez Vidal, Bibiana Padilla Maltos, >Alberto RoblesT, Tamalez, Gerardo Yépiz. PORTUGAL: Fernando Aguiar. >URUGUAY: Diego de los Campos, Clemente Padín. VENEZUELA: Aureliano >Alfonzo. > >PROGRAMA DE ACTIVIDADES > >MEXICALI >Viernes 1 de marzo de 2002 >Café Literario del Teatro del Estado > >8:00 - 8:05 >Inauguración. >8:05 - 8:45 >Exposición de poesía visual, audiopoesía, videopoesía y arte postal. >Presentación de R2. >8:45 - 9:15 >Presentación del proyecto de Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh. >9:15 - 9:35 >Sonidos para después de despertar, polipoema de Carlos Adolfo Gutiérrez >Vidal. >9:35 - 10:20 >Lectura del maestro Doug Rice. >10:20 - 11:00 >Presentación estelar de Miki Guadamur y su pop electrodoméstico. En >vivo y a todo color. > >TIJUANA >Sábado 2 de marzo de 2002 >Sala de video del Cecut > >8:00 - 8:15 >Inauguración. >8:15 - 8:35 >Muestra de poesía visual, audiopoesía, videopoesía y arte postal. >8:35 - 9:05 >Presentación del proyecto de Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh. >9:05 - 9:30 >Sonidos para después de despertar, polipoema de Carlos Adolfo Gutiérrez >Vidal. >9:30 - 10:00 >Lectura del maestro Doug Rice >10:00 - 10:40 >Presentación estelar de Miki Guadamur y su pop electrodoméstico. En >vivo y a todo color. > > >Mayores informes: >Alejandro Espinoza Galindo, Bibiana Padilla Maltos >044 686 589.2547 http://www.avtextfest.org >Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh >www.factoryschool.org >Miki Guadamur >www.geocities.com/guadahm > >--- end forwarded text > > >-- _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:36:12 -0500 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: contact for Ken Harris MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit email or phone number for Ken Harris would be appreciated. please backchannel. Allen Bramhall Potes & Poets Press www.potespoets.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 07:26:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: NPR Needs our Help Comments: To: grabinve@BuffaloState.edu, brian.grabiner@utoronto.ca, nadi@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, hverman@aol.com, schwendh@earthlink.net, khshabazz@aol.com, jhbraun@tds.net, laugenl@aol.com, elesk@compuserve.com, lopeze@ecc.edu, kirstein@ecc.edu, easton.melissa@emeryworld.com, MPRINTED@aol.com, Mario Nunez , skulicz@cstaff.sunyerie.edu, johnmarciano@earthlink.net, jakestein@aol.com, vivijohn@msn.com, SPSM-LIST@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU, jlawler@acsu.buffalo.edu, hadley@imine.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed On NPR's Morning Edition last week, Nina Tottenberg said that if the Supreme Court supports Congress, it is in effect the end of the National Public Radio (NPR), NEA & the Public Broadcasting System (PBS). PBS, NPR and the arts are facing major cutbacks in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and streamline their services, some government officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is too large a portion of funding for something which is seen as not worthwhile. The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our voices heard. Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends who believe in what this stands for. This list will be forwarded to the President and the Vice President of the United States. This petition is being passed around the Internet. Please add your name to it so that funding can be maintained for NPR, PBS, & the NEA. HOW TO SIGN & FORWARD: IT'S EASY: Please keep this petition rolling. Do not reply to me. Please sign and forward to others to sign. If you prefer not to sign, please send to the E-mail address indicated below. DON'T WORRY ABOUT DUPLICATES. This is being forwarded to several people at once to add their names to the petition. It won't matter if many people receive the same list as the names are being managed. This is for anyone who thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure of $1.12/year of their taxes, a petition follows. If you sign, please forward on to others. If not please don't kill it - send it to the Email address listed here: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th, etc., signer of this petition, please forward a copy to: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu & wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu This way we can keep track of the lists and Organize them. NOTE: It is preferable that you SELECT (highlight) the entirety of this letter and then COPY it into a new outgoing message, rather than simply forwarding it. In your new outgoing message, add your name to the bottom of the list, then send it on. Or if option is available, do a SEND AGAIN. 851) Gertrude C Nuttman, Burlingame, CA 94010 852) Claudette D. Schiratti, Shawnee, KS 66203 853) Jean M. Dawson, Billings, MT 59102 854) Nancy M. Skadden, Sturgeon Bay WI 54235 854) Debra Skadden, Minneapolis, MN 55407 855) Eileen M. Rowley, Mellenville, NY 12544 (form. Eileen M.Goodspeed) 856) Chris Fisk, Ballston Lake, N. Y. 12019 857) Ronald Thomas, Leonia NJ 858) Thomas Hill, Cambridge, Ma. 02140. 859) Peter McKinney, Cambridge, MA 02138 860) Laurence Sperry, Brighton, MA 02135 861) Elizabeth Dowey, Somerville , MA 02144 862) Bill Barbeau, Somerville, MA 02144 863) Kathleen Schnaidt, Dorchester, MA 02125 864) John Rich, Dorchester, MA 02125 865) Amy Newell, Brookline, MA 02446 866) John and Ellen Newell, West Newton, MA 02465 867) Constance Congdon, Amherst,MA 01002 868) Arthur Kopit, New York, NY 10011 869) David Shire, Palisades, NY 10964 870) Didi Conn, Palisades, NY 10964 871) John Phillips, Burbank, CA. 91505 872) Peter Van Norden, Sherman Oaks, CA. 91411 873) Michael DeVries, South Pasadena, CA 91030 874) Shannon C. Klasell, New York, NY 10036 875) Theresa D. Irrera, Fresh Meadows, N.Y. 11366 876) Heather M. Dominick, New York, NY 10012 877) Melanie Gold, New York, NY 10024 878) Jamie Winnick, New York 10023 879) John Long, Torrington, CT 06790 880) Margo Zelie, Torrington, CT 06790 881) Michael Allain Torrington, CT 06790 882) David Smolover, Lakeside, CT 06758 883) Nathaniel Gunod, Northfield, CT 884) Stephen Aron, Mansfield, OH 885) Klondike Steadman 886) Steve Kostelnik 887) Will Riley, Boston, MA 02131 888) Masumi Yoneyama, Somerville, MA 02143 889) Sonja Lynne, Woodlyn, PA 19094 890) Rhoda Scott N. Long Branch, NJ 07740 891) Gordon Harris, Somerset, NJ 08873 892) Augustine Amegadzie, Somerset, NJ 08873 893) Bernard Amegadzie, Indianapolis, IN 46236 894) Senyo Opong, Wilmington, DE 19808 895) Concetta LaMarca, Wilmington, DE 19802 896) Ellen Lebowitz. Newark, DE 19711 897) Dave Johnsrud Paramus, NJ 07652 898) Katherine Richardson, Amherst, NH 03031 899) Dr. Natacha Villamia Sochat, Amherst, NH 03031 900) Dr. Michael Sochat, Amherst, NH 03031 901) Jack Nunberg, Missoula, MT 59802 902) Meg Trahey, Missoula, MT 59802 903) Lishan Su, Chaple Hill, NC 27516 904) Yan Li, Chapel Hill, NC 27516 905) Tian Xu, New Haven, CT 06510 906) Peter Tattersall, New Haven, CT 06510 907) Ian Maxwell, Denver, CO 80207 908) Dusty Miller, Seattle, WA 98105 909) Sandy Haight, Seattle, WA 98112 910) Kaaren Janssen, Guilford, CT 06437 911) Ira Mellman, Guilford, CT 06437 912) Michael Bobker, Brooklyn, NY 11238 913) Marta Panero, Brookly, NY 11238 914) Guido De Marco, Brooklyn, NY 11201 915) Josh Bivens, Brooklyn, NY 11205 916) George S. Chase IV, New York, NY 10009 917) Nina Morrison, New York, NY 10028 918) Joe Schiappa, Huntington, CT 06484 919) Shira Piven 920) Adam McKay 921) Lisa Rosman, Brooklyn, NY 11238 922) David Evans, Brooklyn, NY 11211 923) Michelle Caulfield, Brooklyn NY 11238 924) Michael La Fon, Brooklyn NY 11238 925) Hildur Lindgren Carlen, Brooklyn NY 11201 926) Conrad Carlen, Brooklyn NY 11201 927) Jessica Gohlke, Brooklyn, Ny 11205 928) Madelon Sprengnether, Minneapolis MN 55414 929) Tom Clayton, St. Paul, MN 55104 930) Judith Martin, Minneapolis, MN. 55401 931) Patricia McDonnell, Curator, Weisman Art Museum, Minneapolis, Minnesota 932) Megan Fox, New York, NY 10003 933) Elizabeth Glassman, New York, NY 10016 934) Sarah Burt, Santa Fe 87505 935) Rita L Sooby, Lawrence, KS 66046 936) Randy Blom, Long Beach, CA. 90802 937) William Richardson, Covington, GA 30016 938) Robert Halcums, Covington, GA 30016 939) Vicki Lange, Alpharetta, GA 30022 940) Sue Alexander, Novato, CA. 94947 941) Genevieve Vierling, Point Reyes Station, CA 94956 942) Nancy Fischer, Boca Raton, FL 33487 943) Chet Meeks, Albany, NY 12208 944) Ann Tollefson, Casper, WY 826011 945) Lew Bagby, Laramie, WY 82072 946) Stephen E. Williams , Laramie, WY 82072 947) Wendy S. Hutchinson, Gillette, WY 82717 948) Roy S. Liedtke, Gillette, WY 82718 949) Claire Dunne, Manderson, WY 82432 950) Susan M. Gabriel, Brooklyn, NY 11218 951) Jessica Katz, Brooklyn, NY 11215 952) Joan Parry, Manhasset, NY 11030 953) Maureen Rothschild DiTata, Rockville Centre, New York 11570 954) Joy Kotrch, Brooklyn, New York 955) Celeste Alexander, New York, NY 10024 956) Charlotte Surkin, New York, NY 10011 957) Stephanie Low, New York, NY 10029 958) Phyllis Fay Farmer 960) Katherine Harris, New York, NY 961) Jacqueline S. Harris, Wilmington, DE 19803 962) Jane Strobach 963) Susan Radovich 964) Andrea Strobach, Knapp, WI 965) Gail Tourville, Menomonie,Wi. 966) Cat Thompson, Hudson, WI 967) Mary Bendtsen, St. Paul, MN 968) Patrick Rivard, New Brighton MN 969) Katie Rivard, New Brighton MN 970) Kitty Schneider, Minneapolis, MN 971) Pamela McInnes, St. Paul, MN 972) Keith McInnes, Newton, MA 973) Patricia McCaffrey, Newton, MA 974) Susan Almquist, Lexington MA 975) Robert L. Poley, Boulder CO 976) Karen Sharp, Boulder, CO 977) Gretchen Colbert, Lakewood, CO 978) Leah Hamilton, Littleton, CO 979) Mike Weiker, Littleton, CO 980) Carole Tillotson, Evergreen, CO 981) Emery Gordon, El Granada, Ca 982) Chris Madison, El Granada, Ca 983) Tamsin Orion, San Francisco, CA 94103 984) Marianne Gammon 985) Sam Gammon 986) Sarah Irwin, Austin, TX. 78736 987) Shake Russell, Austin, TX. 78736 988) Victoria Harper, Houston, TX 77006 989) Julie Robertson, San Angelo, TX 76904 990)Renee French, Austin, Texas 78746 991) Valerie R. Zeller, Leander, TX 78641 992) Linda Butler, OD, Freehold, NJ 07728 993) Rolande Kelting, Enfield, CT 06082 994) Lee Kelting, Tolland, CT 06084 995) Carl Fossum, W. Simsbury, CT 06092 996) Debbie Stein, Rockville, MD 20852 997) Bill and Dorothy Grobman 998 Milton and Hannah Kaplan 999 Ben and Jeanne Milder 1000) Roma and Raymond Wittcoff, Scottsdale, AZ 85258 1001) Colin Graham, Saint Louis, Missouri 1002) William Ferguson, New York, New York 10040 1003) Arden Kaywin, New York, NY 10023 1004) Kami Lewis 1005) Kate Angus, New York, NY 10003 1006) Jill Anderson, Ithaca, NY 14850 1007) Thomas Pendergast, Amesbury, MA 01913 1008) Kenneth Pendergast, Geneva, NY 14456 1009) Emily Utter, Geneva, NY 14456 1010) Reed Harwood, Geneva, NY 14456 1111) Victoria Cunningham, South Dartmouth, MA 02748 1112) Toni Nash, Santa Barbara, CA, 93108 1113) Mary Southard, La Grange Park, IL 60526 1114) Terri Mackenzie, Chicago, IL 60626-2947 1115) Jane Gibbons, Ventura, CA 93001 1116) Rob Icangelo, Weehawken, NJ 07086 1117) Matthew Reichek, Brooklyn, NY 11215 1118) Aparna Sundaram, Staten Island, NY 10301 1119) Mark Rentflejs, New York, NY 10031 1120) Eugene Abrahamson, Buffalo, NY 14213 1121) Julie Vaughan, Buffalo, NY 14213 1122) Gene Grabiner, Buffalo, NY 14214 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 06:39:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Editorial Staff Subject: After L=A=N=G=U=A=G-=E Poetry Comments: To: ubuweb MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com For a recent issue of the Swedish journal OEI, 10 young North American poets were asked to respond to the following two questions: 1. How do you conceive of innovative poetry in America after Language Poetry? 2. How do you define your own practice in relation to Language Poetry? 1. Christian Bök 2. Stacy Doris 3. Peter Gizzi 4. Kenneth Goldsmith 5. Karen Mac Cormack 6. Jennifer Moxley 7. Jena Osman 8. Juliana Spahr 9. Brian Kim Stefans 10. Chet Wiener The repsonses are here: http://ubu.com/feature/papers/feature_oei.html __ U B U W E B __ http://ubu.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:31:49 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: UK Readings Comments: To: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, poetryetc@mailbase.ac.uk, R.I.Caddel@durham.ac.uk, ejm@austin.co.uk, 101745.1352@compuserve.com, RML@madbear.demon.co.uk, rf@fainlight.com, sylviedmcg@btinternet.com, shearsman@appleonline.net, jean-mary.crozier@virgin.net, cmcg@mpn.com, cemery@CAMBRIDGE.ORG, weissbort@mpit.demon.co.uk, ElaineFeinstein@compuserve.com, jhogan-parksideden@mail.u-net.com, jvk20@hermes.cam.ac.uk, jewish.quarterly@ort.org, stephensmg@hotmail.com, p.middleton@soton.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed MICHAEL HELLER will be reading at the following places in England in March: 5 MARCH: in the SUBVOICIVE series, with Anthony Rudolf 8 PM, The Betsey Trotwood, Farrington Rd. London EC1 6 MARCH: in the WRITERS AT WARWICK series, 7:15 PM in the National Grid Room, Warwick Arts Centre, University of Warwick 8 MARCH: in the Poetry Society's CROSSING THE LINE series, with Danielle Hope and Jane Augustine 7:30 PM, The Poetry Cafe 22 Betterton St., Covent Garden, London 15 MARCH: in the MORDEN TOWER series 4 PM West Walls, Back Stowell Street, Newcastle upon Tyne ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:50:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: Jayne Cortes & Firespitters? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit out here in Tucson, we're trying to put together a proposal (grant proposal) to bring Jayne Cortes & her band for a performance. (POG would co-sponsor w Tucson Poetry Festival & U of Arizona Poetry Center.) does anyone know: --whether they perform/travel on a pretty regular basis? --are at all likely to want to come to Tucson if the price is right? --how much they might charge for honorarium? --how many people are in the band (how many hotel beds do we need, etc)? --do they have an agent we should contact? thanks for any help, Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/ POG: http://www.gopog.org mailto:pog@gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:12:54 -0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Correction re. Readings Comments: To: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, poetryetc@mailbase.ac.uk, R.I.Caddel@durham.ac.uk, ejm@austin.co.uk, 101745.1352@compuserve.com, RML@madbear.demon.co.uk, rf@fainlight.com, sylviedmcg@btinternet.com, shearsman@appleonline.net, jean-mary.crozier@virgin.net, cmcg@mpn.com, cemery@CAMBRIDGE.ORG, weissbort@mpit.demon.co.uk, ElaineFeinstein@compuserve.com, jhogan-parksideden@mail.u-net.com, jvk20@hermes.cam.ac.uk, jewish.quarterly@ort.org, stephensmg@hotmail.com, p.middleton@soton.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sorry. I put down the incorrect time for the Morden Tower reading on 15 March. The time is 8 PM, not 4 PM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 19:55:18 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: _Dovecote_ by Heather Fuller, new from Edge Books MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Edge Books is extremely pleased to announce the publication of DOVECOTE by Heather Fuller 90 pages, perfectbound, $10 SPECIAL OFFER Order _Dovecote_ before April 1st for $7.50 postpaid. With any order for _Dovecote_ you can also receive any of the following titles at discounted prices: _perhaps this is a rescue fantasy_, by Heather Fuller, $7 (regularly $10) _Ace_ by Tom Raworth, $7 (regularly $10) _Comp._ by Kevin Davies, $9 (regularly $12.50) _Aerial 9: Bruce Andrews_, $11 (regularly $15) _Sight_ by Lyn Hejinian and Leslie Scalapino, $9 (regularly $12) _Marijuana Softdrink_, Buck Downs, $7 (regularly $10) _Nothing Happened and Besides I Wasn't There, Mark Wallace, $6.50 (regularly $9.50) Checks payable to: Aerial/Edge POBox 25642 Washington, DC 20007 A full list of Aerial/Edge titles may be found at www.aerialedge.com See Heather Fuller's author page at http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/fuller/ Forthcoming from Edge Books: _The Sense Record & Other Poems_ by Jennifer Moxley. (June, 2002) _Zero Star Hotel_ by Anselm Berrigan. (August, 2002) from "full logic system" from _Dovecote_ installing the Baltimore Glassman in benefactor's quarters in another institution where there was first aid but no Inspector for every tax incentive the geese or the Glassman the door or the pocket every article slipping I missed on Rhode Island Avenue the burned out chain of cars and missing her it was useless throwing the book where it ended ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:13:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael g salinger Subject: new publishing house MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael Salinger from Cleveland Ohio here. We've started a new small press here on the North Coast and we'd like to extend an invitation for you to drop by to browse and comment. Right now we are working with several authors to publish a series of chapbooks and are not reading new material at this time - look for a call for submissions in late spring. In the meantime we're pretty proud of what we've got up there and are looking forward to producing more. http://www.collinwoodmedia.org thanks, michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:49:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Kirschenbaum Subject: Poet Laureate of Nirvana MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that is Kurt Cobain Joel Weishaus wrote: > Tom Bell just pointed out to me what it was Duke Snider, not Snyder. Too bad > that Gary can't claim to be related to Duke, who owned his own suit. > I remember seeing Ginsberg in Berkeley, shortly after he's received a > Guggenheim, wearing a suit. I suspect he's the Poet Laureate of Nirvana.. > > -Joel > > Joel Weishaus > Center for Excellence in Writing > Portland State University > Portland, Oregon > http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 T: (212) 206-8899 F: (212) 206-9982 booglit@theeastvillageeye.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 00:08:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Macgregor Card Subject: GERM Launch, NYC, Mar. 7--Downing/Anderson/Ostashevsky read Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Please, there will be a GERM MONOGRAPHS book launch: Thursday March 7, 7pm at Teachers & Writers 5 Union Square West, seventh floor, free admit Readings by all authors of 3 new germ editions: * * Brandon DOWNING -- The Shirt Weapon (trade paperback) * * Eugene OSTASHEVSKY -- The Off-Centaur (chapbook) * * Beth ANDERSON -- Hazard (chapbook) * * French POETS -- Le Germe (silent short) Kindly hosted by Poetry City. All titles will be for sale at a book table, with someone to be in charge o= f taking money (as usual). Germ Monographs (paperbacks) are $10, Germ Folios (chapbooks) are $5. You can buy them after the reading. There's going to be a lot to eat and drink, so bring your stomach and appetites, we'll supply the food and wine on our part! Any questions about how to get there, or wha= t is this, contact: macgregorcard@hotmail.com & max@oingo.com ___________________________________ "Now... I am these trains! I am stars and trucks, the shape of charges! I am immediate! You are a Giant. So now you decide to love me I am the entire county road. Yes, I vanished. I was below you. Am the siren= s And I will always reach. See everybody=B9s money with my eyes... But I am, I am also, those gas pavilions, the gory sunlight. I circle Between thunder and creek. Want to move away. Sad! But I will kneel before no wildlife." --THE SHIRT WEAPON "Instead of vows, I will imagine pinnacles cribbed from another=B9s vision of the sea some nautical verb enacted here before us. Held in check with items plucked from a list of theories gone wrong, our =20 primary option exploded and its appartus fell into deep water. " --HAZARD "You got a call from a general named Pete He says his feet are enveloped in concrete He is currently located under water =AD Can he call back? =AD No, this is his last quarter O, okay, hello general? I make you an admiral Your behavior under duress is so admirable If I could I would make you a several" --THE OFF-CENTAUR ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. In-Reply-To: <004101c1bbfd$4e2126c0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David, I took a look at your poems in Painting Without Numbers and the first issue of your 'zine where you have some works of your own, and I enjoyed them very much. I liked the made-up words and syntax, the juxtaposition of phrases that apparently didn't go together etc. This is the kind of device use in Language poetry as you are no doubt aware, but Language poetry also (again as you know quite well) is associated with being highly academic and upper class. I think this is silly, and that anyone should be able/allowed to write whatever style of poetry they feel like writing. I did not find anything particularly working class about your poetry except for the subject matter of one poem about your father in which you talk about him getting seven pounds and frozen bones (or something like that). I don't see why you should be obligated, though, to sound working class, either, unless you are a political poet who wants to agitate for the rights of the working class, but to me you seem more like a poet who wants simply to write poetry of a certain literary caliber that people will enjoy reading. And I also don't see why working class readers should necessarily either be your audience or , if they are your audience, why they should prefer simplistic jingoism. Perhaps more working class people than upper class people like simple kinds of writing since they are not as educated, but a working class person who picks up a book of poetry is likely to want to read poetry, just as you, a working class poet, want to write poetry and not jingles. Millie [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of david.bircumshaw This is an interesting topic but also one I feel twitchy about. I am most definitely working-class, that is to say, not just born working-class but remaining so. I do not write to the stereotypes of how working-class poets should write. [....] That people on this list might be uncomfortable with the idea of working-class poets doesn't surprise me, I'm afraid to say, it's much the same elsewhere. Those who are supposed to be silent shouldn't start speaking, should they? [....] http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 08:42:13 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: to be Hell(er) or not MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks. As long as you have a hellava time! "Catch 22" was a great book: its still is: but what kind of poetry do (does) (you) (the other) Mr Michael Heller write: explain yourself! Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Heller" To: Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 11:29 PM > He is not related to Joseph Heller, though when he had a house in the > Hamptons he was often referred to as "the other Heller." > > > Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:34:59 +1300 > From: "richard.tylr" > Subject: Re: READING, ETC. > Is Michael Heller related to Joseph Heller of "Catch 22"? Richard. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Heller" > To: > Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2002 1:39 AM > Subject: READING, ETC. > > > The WRITERS' RETROSPECTIVE series: > > > > Presents MICHAEL HELLER > > > > Thursday, February 28th 6:30 PM > > > > "Heller's poetry and prose are noble in gesture and intent, superbly rich > > and profoundly emotional. The should be considered a unique and vital > part > > of the contemporary canon"---Dictionary of Literary Biography > > > > at LOCUS MEDIA > > > > 594 Broadway #1010 (Between Houston & Prince) > > > > Admission: $8.00 > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:11:34 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: bernstein's absorption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A brief response "off the cuff" so to speak. I've read Bernstein's book/essay but not Longinus. Dickinson's poetry is obviously quite unique in that it succeeds with a radical artifice (which - or "Poetic Artifice" is Veronica Forrest-Thomson's book he talks about - is the title of Perloff's book) to enter into "areas" that one could say eg Williams C Williams (on the face of it in his poetics) avoids: we are "deceived" into a more abstract world and become abstracted or absorbed somewhat by Dickinson's conceptions or our response to them: I've always found Dickinson difficult to get my head around. Poe hypnotises or draws the reader in into strange worlds: his famous poem about the crow finds itself in "Last Exit to Brooklyn" which I found a strangely apocalyptic, almost biblically or (sublimely) powerful novel: with passages of harsh "realism" juxtaposed with biblical quotes: the poem is in itself a hint almost of the nihilist potential in "abstract" language (although that term is problematic)...it links I suppose back to the Romantics eg the sublime is seen clearly with Wordsworth ( and in the extremes of Coleridge's "big" poems and his more "intimate" or "inner" contemplative: less "absorbing" poems) and in the art of Turner and even Constable: Wordsworth though is also trying in many poems to tackle the reality of country life (or life itself) in ways not normatively associated with "romanticism" or the sublime: the poem about the leech gatherers is one, and his poem set on Westminster bridge sees the sublime in the city: in nature often there is a threat or a darkness as eg in "Nutting" or the incident in "The Prelude" in which he suddenly becomes aware of the dark, threatening nature of the external world: of course the point is that this is all from the mediation of WW himself as with Williams almost - dare I say it - Wordsworthian - (first poem of) "Spring and All" ... here Williams's detail is very intense but then "dazed spring approaches" the abstract force enters... the absorption antiabsorption metaphor or method of thinking about poetry is very good. What I like about that essay/poem "A Poetics" is that we dont feel (too much) that we are being lectured to: although of course there is no discourse per se. But certainly "A Poetics" opens up te debate so to speak and includes writers not so commonly thought of as being radically disjunctive.even Swinburne, commonly thought of as melifluous and "musical" so that we can become absorbed into his works (which in some lights might be seen as "sublime") is "looked at" and in his biog by Jean Overton Fuller she shows his very strong concentration on details noticed at sea, the anti absorptive details (details that Hopkins was fascinated by ... but then he invented the concept of inscape: Scroggins in his book on Zukofsky concentrates on the "sound"/musicality in Swinburne but there is more to him: and as he indicates the greatness of Zukofsky's "A" is that it moves between "sublime" passages (whose theme maybe for example - his own coming demise and the harmony and honor of his own family (A11): or some "saw-horses" that enter into a kind of dance (according to Ahearn: in one section)...then we encounter "intrusions" such as his son's letters or something about local events or politics:mundanity alternates somwhat with sublimity....the 'worry' with Z being the near-obsessive intaglio of numerical and etymylogical significations hidden under the surface of his work which leave the reader ultimately needing to read the poem _only_ the old problems of "difficulty" and so on...: but the anti absorptive aspects bring us to connections while we are aware of the project and also in 'the back of our minds' the overall "fugal" or linear musicality of the work: as a poem or work approaches the upper limit of music it becomes - a transcendent - an organ greatness - but we cant stay there as in Dickinson's projected concept of being the thing. Or can we? Is the world too much with us? Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "madison cawein" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2002 8:11 AM Subject: bernstein's absorption > Reading Charles Bernstein's poem "Artifice of Absorption," I was struck by a > resemblance between his term "absorption' and the Sublime. To pick just one > point (and one version of Sublime), Bernstein writes > > By absorption I mean engrossing, engulfing > completely engaging, arresting attention, reverie, > attention intensification, rhapsodic, spellbinding, > mesmerizing, hypnotic, total, riveting, > enthrallic: belief, conviction, silence > > which to me serves as an introduction to his passages on Poe and Dickinson > which jibe with a remark in Longinus (chapter 7) that "by some innate power > the true sublime lifts our souls; we are filled with a proud exaltation and > a sense of vaulting joy, just as though we had ourselves produced what we > had heard." Heard, received - hearing/seeing, receptivity. Bernstein remarks > that > > ... In Poe's > fiction, horror is a means not only of absorbing > the reader in the tale but also, explicitly, > obliterating the self-consciousness of the story's > characters, who commonly fall into states of > absolutely rapt presentness, or rapture, or terror, > or reverie. > > Bernstein then goes on to quote Dickinson's "I would not paint - a picture-" > as a "radically absorptive poetic" and writes > > Not to describe or incant but to be > the thing described, "endued" - endowed - "Baloon"; > to be inside, lighter than, "things," > inflated by them, so absolutely absorbed as to be > floating "Enamored - impotent - content"; for > such enrapturement leaves one impotent to affect > the world, since to be able to affect requires > that one is removed from; & this armless > connection not only leaves one content but also, & the > double sense is crucial to the metaphysics > of the poem, makes one CONtent, thinged - bolts > one to the other side of the see/seen divide. > Yet to be able to be absorbed into this other side > requires jolts, an antiabsorptive disruption > of complacent pictoral "talk." So to "stun" is > to shock into one's senses, an ecstatic, > perhaps mystical, transport into what Howe calls > the "thrilling anonymity" of Dickinson's poetics. > Author disappears & by this act "licenses" > the "luxury" of a deeper absorption, by the reader, > in the poem than otherwise imaginable. > > There are other correspondences between Bernstein's absorption and > Longinus's Sublime (which engulfs, as the Sublime is wont to do, the Burkean > and Kantian Sublimes). > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:38:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Fwd: Big John Wants Your Reading List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I presume 'clandestine" be Monica, Bill, and the cigar? sm. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:37:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wanda Phipps Subject: SPEECH ACTS MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit SPEECH ACTS (poetry as performative utterance) tuesday . March 5th . 7pm . free and open to the public (refreshments & pre-show at 6:30) @ The Educational Alliance 197 East Broadway (Lower East Side) BILL LUOMA tara rebele WANDA PHIPPS, JOEL SCHLEMOWITZ & MARC SLOAN the yogurt boys EDWIN TORRES eugene ostashevsky DAVID SHAPIRO and james hoff + panel discussion, q&a with performers SPEECH ACTS is AN EVENING OF POETRY IN PERFORMANCE in a beautiful, historic 250 seat theater on the Lower East Side curated by Matvei Yankelevich (ugly duckling presse) for MAGNITUDE (an exhibit of POETRY:SCULPTURE collaboration) (runs through March 27th at Educational Alliance) call the educational alliance 212-780-2300 x 378 for info The EDUCATIONAL ALLIANCE is located at 187 East Broadway. Take F to East Broadway and exit to East Broadway & Rutgers St, walk two short blocks, past 169 bar -- Wanda Phipps Hey, don't forget to check out my website MIND HONEY http://users.rcn.com/wanda.interport (and if you have already try it again) poetry, music and more! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:07:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Lewis Subject: Re: bernstein's absorption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, You may be interested to read Anne Carson's essay "On The Sublime in Longinus and Antonioni" in the Fall 2001 issue of BRICK. Karen ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 01:57:39 -0500 Reply-To: dbuuck@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "dbuuck@mindspring.com" Subject: looking for Content-Transfer-Encoding: Quoted-Printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" contact info for Mark Tadao Nakada &/or Phinder Dulai b/c fine - thanks - David Buuck -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:09:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: class and innov writing In-Reply-To: <3C7692D5.8A6B9EFB@ark.ship.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" michael, really liked your post and agree with those who say that economic class is a trickier construction than most will grant... as a friendly amendment: i wonder if we might note, too, the (negative) reception of work that isn't viewed (by said "working class" poets, e.g.) as appropriately representational... i.e., similar to the sort of resistance someone like gayle jones was subject to for ~eva's man~---its presumed failure to address african american realities with sufficient urgency/immediacy... this is something i've noted all too often among "working class" poets who are after the "authentic" experience (ditto for viet nam poets who are after the "authentic" experience)... which strikes me as something of the same reservation some slam poets espouse when talking about what they call "academic" poetry (and vice versa, if you will---here the question of (aural) presence or its telos looms large)... so that we end up with the many uses to which the work is put, yes (and imagined to be put, yes)... as opposed simply to a formal classification of said work on the basis of presumptions concerning its point of (generative) origin, or its formal attributes... or to say it another way: all of these aspects present us with a more complex grasp of what's going on when we designate poetry/literature/art with terms such as "working class"... as in, class at work... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:29:30 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ryan fitzpatrick Subject: PyongTaek by ryan fitzpatrick Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed modlpress is pleased to announce the release of: PyongTaek by ryan fitzpatrick Written during six months teaching english in South Korea, PyongTaek explores language's value within global business, relations between North and South Korea, and the world post-September 11th. ryan fitzpatrick lives in Ogden, Calgary, Alberta, Canada. He is a founding editor of (orange) magazine and has published one previous chapbook, revised notes. Some of his writing has recently been published in issues of filling Station, Stanzas and phu online (http://www.ucalgary.ca/~dkmatthi/phu). Copies are $5.00 but trades are extremely welcome. Inquiries can be sent to ryan fitzpatrick at rcfmod@hotmail.com cheers, rf. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:19:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William J Allegrezza Subject: new title by subontic press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii subontic press announces the publication of William Allegrezza?s chapbook _Lingo_. For copies, send 5 dollars to: subontic press 5535 S. Everett 1W Chicago, IL 60637 For sample poems see: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/8789/Allegrez.htm http://www.moriapoetry.com/allegrezza.htm http://canwehaveourballback.com/8allegrezza.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:15:07 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Antonio Sebatian Porta Subject: Poetry = March + Zinc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Receivers of Email, Rothschild has requested that I pass this on. So, here it is. Tony Dohr --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: drothschild@jjay.cuny.edu To: Antonio Sebastian Porta Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2002 02:06:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: zink-BAR March 2002 Message-ID: <495554989.1013065609729.JavaMail.root@hera.jjay.cuny.edu> Tony, Thanks for the list service thanks for the help. Make sure you add those addresses i sent on monday. -dgsalou [p.s. How's gramps?] ________________________________________________ Dear O'Poets, MARCH--in or out like a lion or lamb? {How in the world does a lion come in? i would suppose they sneak in no? & lambs?--lead by sheepdogs?} Nothing else funny to say. Oh, if you have something to say--or have had something to say reguarding BaseBall & want to see it in print. Email it to me, or bring it in & hand it to me at the Zinc Bar before March 24th. As i mentioned to some of you, i am editing a BoogLit edition on BaseBall. If you have not seen the new newsleter format, you are truly missing out. So....BaseBall. ALSO IMPORTANT: Come on down to someone you've never heard of--& i will waive the $4 donation. PLEASE, please, PLEASE, foward this to other poets--they can reply to Tony & he will add them to the email list. He promised. now for the schedule: March 3: Brenda Bordofsky & Julien Poirier March 10: Jen Bervin & Lee Ann Brown March 17: David Cameron & Carol Mirakove THURSDAY March 21: Joe Eliot & Roberta Olsen March 24: Prageeta Sharma & Brian Blanchfield (Stay tuned we may be adding the 14th and the 28th) March 31: HOPPPY BUNNY DAY--no reading The readings start at 6:37 on Sunday, unless it's Thursday then they start at 6:37. The Zinc Bar: 90 west Houston, just west of LaGuardia Place. (it's downstairs) If you don't want to get this (or get it more than once) Please reply & say, "No More" or perhaps, "Spam, spam, spam, not so wonderful spam." or some such, & Tony will take your email off the list. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 12:36:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: OLSON STUDIES Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed OLSON STUDIES Scene One A: "I return to the geography ..." B: "Ah detuhn to the geogahphy" A: No. "GeogRAPHy." Rrrr. B: Geogaphy. A: Gee-awh B: Gee-awwwh A: Good: "RAPH-ee." B: Waphy. A: No. Rrrrrr. RAPH-ee. B: GAHphy. [Curtain.] Scene Two A: Form is never more than an extension of content. M: Foahm is nevah moah than an extension of content. A: No. Forrrrm ... M: Foammm ... A: No. *Listen*. FORRRRRRRM. "Form." M: FUHHHHH -? A: FORRRRRRRR -? M: FOAHHHHHH -- A: FORRRRRRRRRRRRR, Arrrrrrrrrr -? M: FEWWWWW? [Curtain.] Scene Three A: One perception -- Y: Wan pahsepshin -- A: Perrr, PERception -? Y: Pawww A: PERRRRR. Like "purr." PURRception. Y: Poahhh -? A: One PERception must Y: One PAWception must A: Immediately and directly Y: Immediately and diyectly A: DiRECT?RECT. Y: Dect. Didect ...? [Curtain.] *** FIRST ANNUAL FLARF FESTIVAL *** FIRST ANNUAL FLARF FESTIVAL *** Tuesday, March 5, 8:00 PM Flying Saucer Cafe 494 Atlantic Avenue (btwn 3rd & Nevins), Brooklyn HOW TO GET THERE: 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or D or Q to the Atlantic Subway stop and walk underground to the Pacific Street exit (at the N or R or M Pacific Street Stop) or take the B or N or R or M - in any case, go out the Pacific Street Exit (right exit), take a right - at the end of the block you will be on Atlantic Ave. Take a left on Atlantic, and about two and a half blocks down, between Third and Nevins, you will find the Flying Saucer Cafe. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 10:46:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: bernstein's absorption MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This idea of absorption is inseparable from its anti. They both operate in texts to form a reading, I belive Bernstein says more as colourings than literal poles (haven't read the essay recently so I'm straining the brain here!). Longinus' sublimity was a form of ekstasis, being rapt, taken out of the body. Which is different than absorption though they share features, i.e. (w)raptness, engulfment. As far as Edmund Burke is concerned with relating to text, the sublime is a feeling experienced from a distance, because the security is essential to allowing for the (W)rapture-- you feel the terror without being in the situation-- so I can see how this plays around near anti/absorption, however it feels necessarily different. Absorptive and antiabsorptive techniques could be used to generate a feeling of sublimity, but don't have to. I don't think a person has to be distanced from anything to affect it. Whether we know it or not, our actions constantly affect things all around us, our words, our decisions. so, in a sense being enraptured can still have an affect, sometimes a very negative or powerful affect-- imagine someone freezing up while their friend is being mugged for example instead of helping (bad example maybe... though relevant these days). Even the act of observing/perceiving a la Heisenberg flavours what is being observed/perceived no matter what a person's claim to objective distance. Impotence definitely carries an affect... ----- Original Message ----- From: "madison cawein" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 12:11 PM Subject: bernstein's absorption > Reading Charles Bernstein's poem "Artifice of Absorption," I was struck by a > resemblance between his term "absorption' and the Sublime. To pick just one > point (and one version of Sublime), Bernstein writes > > By absorption I mean engrossing, engulfing > completely engaging, arresting attention, reverie, > attention intensification, rhapsodic, spellbinding, > mesmerizing, hypnotic, total, riveting, > enthrallic: belief, conviction, silence > > which to me serves as an introduction to his passages on Poe and Dickinson > which jibe with a remark in Longinus (chapter 7) that "by some innate power > the true sublime lifts our souls; we are filled with a proud exaltation and > a sense of vaulting joy, just as though we had ourselves produced what we > had heard." Heard, received - hearing/seeing, receptivity. Bernstein remarks > that > > ... In Poe's > fiction, horror is a means not only of absorbing > the reader in the tale but also, explicitly, > obliterating the self-consciousness of the story's > characters, who commonly fall into states of > absolutely rapt presentness, or rapture, or terror, > or reverie. > > Bernstein then goes on to quote Dickinson's "I would not paint - a picture-" > as a "radically absorptive poetic" and writes > > Not to describe or incant but to be > the thing described, "endued" - endowed - "Baloon"; > to be inside, lighter than, "things," > inflated by them, so absolutely absorbed as to be > floating "Enamored - impotent - content"; for > such enrapturement leaves one impotent to affect > the world, since to be able to affect requires > that one is removed from; & this armless > connection not only leaves one content but also, & the > double sense is crucial to the metaphysics > of the poem, makes one CONtent, thinged - bolts > one to the other side of the see/seen divide. > Yet to be able to be absorbed into this other side > requires jolts, an antiabsorptive disruption > of complacent pictoral "talk." So to "stun" is > to shock into one's senses, an ecstatic, > perhaps mystical, transport into what Howe calls > the "thrilling anonymity" of Dickinson's poetics. > Author disappears & by this act "licenses" > the "luxury" of a deeper absorption, by the reader, > in the poem than otherwise imaginable. > > There are other correspondences between Bernstein's absorption and > Longinus's Sublime (which engulfs, as the Sublime is wont to do, the Burkean > and Kantian Sublimes). > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:53:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT EVENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable POETRY PROJECT EVENTS MARCH 1, FRIDAY=20 LOUDMOUTH COLLECTIVE PRESENTS AN ANTI-READING [10:30 pm] MARCH 3, SUNDAY=20 A TRIBUTE TO FIELDING DAWSON (1930-2002) [3-7 pm] MARCH 4, MONDAY=20 OPEN READING [8:00 pm] MARCH 6, WEDNESDAY=20 TED GREENWALD AND TOM RAWORTH [8:00 pm] MARCH 8, FRIDAY P.O.W. POETS OF WAR [10:30 pm] www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html ************************************* MARCH 1, FRIDAY LOUDMOUTH COLLECTIVE PRESENTS AN ANTI-READING Loudmouth Collective is a young, Brooklyn-based press dedicated to portable fiction and poetry, artists' books and sound art. This March marks the first anniversary of the Loudmouth Collective Anti-Readings series. For those that associate boredom with literary functions, Loudmouth Collective presents an anti-reading of new work by Matvei Yankelevich, Joel Schlemowitz, Ryan Haley, James Hoff, Ellie Ga, Marisol Martinez, Julien Poirier, Filip Marinovic and many others. Expect live typewriter art, concrete poetry, language installations, paperless books, poetry film and loads of free books. [10:30 pm] MARCH 3, SUNDAY A TRIBUTE TO FIELDING DAWSON (1930-2002) On Sunday afternoon, March 3rd, a Tribute to the writer and poet, Fielding Dawson, who passed away on January 5th, 2002, will be held at The Poetry Project from 3 to 7 pm. He will be deeply missed. MARCH 4, MONDAY OPEN READING Sign-up at 7:30 p.m. [8:00 p.m.] MARCH 6, WEDNESDAY TED GREENWALD AND TOM RAWORTH TED GREENWALD is the author of a number of books including Jumping the Line= , Something, She's Dead, Word of Mouth, Exit the Face, Common Sense, Licorice Chronicles, and You Bet. His 16-minute videotape, Poker Blues, created in collaboration with Les Levine has become a Vegas standard. TOM RAWORTH has published more than 40 books and pamphlets of poetry, prose= , translations, and a screenplay, A Plague on Both Your Houses. His graphic work has been exhibited in France, Italy, and the United States, and he has collaborated and performed with musicians (Steve Lacy, Jo=EBlle L=E9andre, Stev= e Nelson-Raney), painters (Giovanni D'Agostino, Mica=EBla Henich), and other poets (Franco Beltrametti, Corrado Costa, Dario Villa). [8:00 p.m.] MARCH 8, FRIDAY P.O.W. POETS OF WAR POW's: Poets of War, a performance collective conceived by Galinsky and Christopher Stackhouse, is a group of poet performers who stand against the state of seige in the USA and bring the feelings of anxiety and anger associated with the current oppression, to the stage of St. Mark's Poetry Project. Performances include: A Ying vs. Yang Fencing Duel with Streiffschuss Films, A Hostage Situation with Galinsky, Performance poetry by Lisa Jessie Peterson, Dennis Jordan, Spyro, Taylor Mead, Zero Boy, Girlbomb, Arie Love, Latasha Natasha Diggs, video by Peter Shapiro and more + surprise musical guests. More info at galinskyplace.com [10:30 pm] --=20 Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $7, $4 for students and seniors, and $3 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, the corner of 2nd Avenue and 10th Street in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or visit our Web site at http://www.poetryproject.com. If you are currently on our email list and would like to be on our regular mailing list (so you can receive a sample issue of The Poetry Project Newsletter for FREE), just reply to this email with your full name and address. Hope to hear from you soon!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:00:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS NEW ISSUE OF POETS & POEMS FEATURING WORK BY JOHN KEENE, JANICE LOWE, CHRISTOPHER STACKHOUSE WWW.POETRYPROJECT.COM/POETS.HTML MARCH 3, SUNDAY [3 - 7 PM] A MEMORIAL TRIBUTE TO FIELDING DAWSON (1930-2002) MARCH 10, SUNDAY [3:30 PM] A CELEBRATION FOR POET ZOE ANGLESEY: EIGHT POETS FOR ZOE THE LAUNCH OF WWW.ALLENGINSBERG.ORG WWW.POETRYPROJECT.COM/ANNOUNCEMENTS.HTML ******************** FEB/MAR ISSUE OF POETS & POEMS: www.poetryproject.com/poets.html Featuring poems by John Keene and Janice Lowe, and line drawings by Christopher Stackhouse. Forthcoming issues to feature Jena Osman, Renee Gladman, Joan Retallack, Sawako Nakayasu and more. MARCH 3, SUNDAY [3 - 7 PM] A MEMORIAL TRIBUTE TO FIELDING DAWSON (1930-2002) On the afternoon of Sunday, March 3rd, the Poetry Project will hold a Memorial Tribute to the writer, teacher and poet, Fielding Dawson, who passed away on January 5th, 2002, will take place at The Poetry Project from 3 to 7 pm. Readers include: Alex Albright, Vyt Bakaitis, Mark Begley, Carol Berge, Josie Clare, Andy Heugel, William Honey, Harvey Isaac, Hettie Jones, Jerry Kelly, Basil King, Martha King, D.H. Melhem, Maureen Owen, Jimmy Owens, Anthony Papa, Donal Phelps, Eric Waters, Bernard White MARCH 10, SUNDAY [3:30 PM] A CELEBRATION FOR POET ZOE ANGLESEY: EIGHT POETS FOR ZOE On Sunday, March 10th at 3:30 PM, The Poetry Project at 131 E. 10th St. @ 2nd Ave. will host A Celebration for Poet Zoe Anglesey featuring: CORNELIUS EADY BOB HOLMAN KAREN SWENSON SUHEIR HAMMAD JENNIFER CLEMENT LINDA GREGG FORREST GANDER YUSEF KOMUNYAKAA Refreshments provided by La Palapa Restaurant. $10 Contribution. Funds raised will contribute to medical expnses incurred by Zoe Anglesey who is fighting lung cancer. THE LAUNCH OF WWW.ALLENGINSBERG.ORG The Allen Ginsberg Trust of New York, with the development firm dataWonk, Inc. of San Francisco, announce the launch of www.allenginsberg.org. "One of Ginsberg's highest callings was to teach and the Web as a medium offers unprecedented ability to disseminate and impart," says Trust director Bob Rosenthal. At the heart of the site are two exciting features: The Lifeline, a choronology of important events about Ginsberg and the Beats, and the Library, a repository intended for research that includes manuscripts, text, audio and video clips, photographs and art works. The Library is intended to grow substantially over time to include thousands of items, "so that those wishing to research Ginsberg's life and work would experience as little misinterpretation as possible." ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 15:17:16 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ian Randall Wilson Subject: Call For Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry is now considering submissions (March 1 to May 31). Guidelines follow. We hope we'll hear from people on the list. Ian Randall Wilson Managing Editor http://members.aol.com/HollyridgePress/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Submission Guidelines for 88: A Journal of Contemporary American Poetry ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Unsolicited submissions will be considered March 1 through May 31 only. Unsolicited submissions postmarked outside that window will be returned unread. However, submissions accompanied by an original proof-of-purchase will be considered year round. (Proof-of-purchase seal may be found in current issues of 88.) Manuscripts must be limited to five poems per submission with author name and address appearing on each page. Long poems not exceeding ten single spaced typewritten pages will be considered, but poems longer than three pages must be submitted separately. Essays on poetry and poetics, and reviews will also be considered. Please limit essays to no more than ten pages, double-spaced. Reviews must be no more than eight double-spaced pages. At this time, material is being considered via USPS submission only. No disk, email or fax submissions. (However, if accepted, material will need to be provided later on disk.) Include a self-addressed, stamped envelope for return of manuscripts. Submissions without SASE will be discarded unread. Cover letter with short bio, please. No simultaneous submissions or previously published material will be considered. We report on submissions within one to three months. Mail submissions to: Editor 88 c/o Hollyridge Press P. O. Box 2872 Venice, CA 90294 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 17:22:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark In-Reply-To: <200202241951.g1OJpY01028989@manatee.unf.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 38 (2002) Ian Randall Wilson Three Poems: Deeply Suspicious of His Own Behavior, Descriptions of Places are Generally Based, and Frets Ian Randall Wilson is a contributing editor to the poetry journal 88. Recent poetry of his has appeared in the SPINNING JENNY, SPORK, and ALASKA QUARTERLY REVIEW. His first fiction collection, HUNGER AND OTHER STORIES, was published by Hollyridge Press. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 18:47:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: gleaning KENJI siratori MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - gleaning KENJI siratori human body pill=planet made of retro-ADAM tera=of=the cadaver feti cadaver feti continent of the human body pill to the soul/gram made of ADAM made of retro-ADAM of dogs acid--I turn on the non-resettable cadaver feti BDSM_cadaver feti-WEB of the soul/gram made of retro-ADAM so....the gene=TV >>the cadaver feti soul/gram made of retro-ADAM is rendered to the internal The soul/gram made of retro-ADAM the chloroform larvas of the cadaver feti the soul/gram made of retro-ADAM virus the cadaver feti body joint that flip made@retro-ADAM rave to the spiral mechanism--. Tera=of to the cadaver feti made of retro-ADAM the cadaver feti eyeball of the technojunkies' protocol of the ruin of the soul/gram made of retro-ADAM cadaver feti=>the 3 m 4 ls 5 rm *.doc 7 wc kenji 8 pico kenji 10 grep "####" kenji 11 grep ADAM kenji 12 grep ADAM kenji 13 grep ADAM kenji | grep cadaver 14 grep ADAM kenji | grep cadaver | grep feti 16 grep ADAM kenji | grep cadaver | grep feti | grep made 18 grep ADAM kenji | grep cadaver | grep feti | grep made >> zz universe of the drug embryo that the technojunkies' cadaver feti mass of 21 tail kenji 22 grep embryo kenji 23 grep embryo kenji | grep that 24 grep embryo kenji | grep that | grep feti 25 grep embryo kenji | grep that | grep feti >> zz chromosome form desire-protocol creatures that grow thick to the RAVE_crime 28 head kenji 29 grep chromo kenji 30 grep chromo kenji | grep desire 31 grep chromo kenji | grep desire >> zz ==== ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:05:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: Job MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Visiting Professor -- Technical Communication/Digital Media Specialist: New Jersey Institute of Technology seeks a visiting professor for a one-year appointment for the graduate and undergraduate programs in professional and technical communication. Terminal degree required. Successful candidate will teach hypertext composition, information design, and multimedia presentations. Please send vita and supporting materials to coppola@njit.edu or mail to Dr. Karl Schweizer, Chair, Humanities and Social Sciences, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Newark, NJ 07102. Application deadline is April 1, 2002. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:14:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: bernstein's absorption In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Madison, Good to see you have risen from the grave to comment on this fine piece. But are you really one to critically comment on the absorption of the reader??? I have seen your work and quote from After Rain What is the spice that haunts each glen and glade? A Dryad's lips, who slumbers in the shade? A Faun, who lets the heavy ivy-wreath Slip to his thigh as, reaching up, he pulls The chestnut blossoms in whole bosomfuls? A sylvan Spirit, whose sweet mouth doth breathe Her viewless presence near us, unafraid? Or troops of ghosts of blooms, that whitely wade The brook? whose wisdom knows no other song Than that the bird sings where it builds beneath The wild-rose and sits singing all day long. Madison Cawein. 1865-1914 Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of madison cawein Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 2:11 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: bernstein's absorption Reading Charles Bernstein's poem "Artifice of Absorption," I was struck by a resemblance between his term "absorption' and the Sublime. To pick just one point (and one version of Sublime), Bernstein writes By absorption I mean engrossing, engulfing completely engaging, arresting attention, reverie, attention intensification, rhapsodic, spellbinding, mesmerizing, hypnotic, total, riveting, enthrallic: belief, conviction, silence which to me serves as an introduction to his passages on Poe and Dickinson which jibe with a remark in Longinus (chapter 7) that "by some innate power the true sublime lifts our souls; we are filled with a proud exaltation and a sense of vaulting joy, just as though we had ourselves produced what we had heard." Heard, received - hearing/seeing, receptivity. Bernstein remarks that ... In Poe's fiction, horror is a means not only of absorbing the reader in the tale but also, explicitly, obliterating the self-consciousness of the story's characters, who commonly fall into states of absolutely rapt presentness, or rapture, or terror, or reverie. Bernstein then goes on to quote Dickinson's "I would not paint - a picture-" as a "radically absorptive poetic" and writes Not to describe or incant but to be the thing described, "endued" - endowed - "Baloon"; to be inside, lighter than, "things," inflated by them, so absolutely absorbed as to be floating "Enamored - impotent - content"; for such enrapturement leaves one impotent to affect the world, since to be able to affect requires that one is removed from; & this armless connection not only leaves one content but also, & the double sense is crucial to the metaphysics of the poem, makes one CONtent, thinged - bolts one to the other side of the see/seen divide. Yet to be able to be absorbed into this other side requires jolts, an antiabsorptive disruption of complacent pictoral "talk." So to "stun" is to shock into one's senses, an ecstatic, perhaps mystical, transport into what Howe calls the "thrilling anonymity" of Dickinson's poetics. Author disappears & by this act "licenses" the "luxury" of a deeper absorption, by the reader, in the poem than otherwise imaginable. There are other correspondences between Bernstein's absorption and Longinus's Sublime (which engulfs, as the Sublime is wont to do, the Burkean and Kantian Sublimes). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 22:18:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: bernstein's absorption In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After re-reading and realize that the sublime was all the rage in your day, and far removed today, that you may be right in some respects. I'm just more amazed that the beyond has email access. Hey if you see Ezra Pound please pass on my email. I have a few questions. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of madison cawein Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 2:11 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: bernstein's absorption Reading Charles Bernstein's poem "Artifice of Absorption," I was struck by a resemblance between his term "absorption' and the Sublime. To pick just one point (and one version of Sublime), Bernstein writes By absorption I mean engrossing, engulfing completely engaging, arresting attention, reverie, attention intensification, rhapsodic, spellbinding, mesmerizing, hypnotic, total, riveting, enthrallic: belief, conviction, silence which to me serves as an introduction to his passages on Poe and Dickinson which jibe with a remark in Longinus (chapter 7) that "by some innate power the true sublime lifts our souls; we are filled with a proud exaltation and a sense of vaulting joy, just as though we had ourselves produced what we had heard." Heard, received - hearing/seeing, receptivity. Bernstein remarks that ... In Poe's fiction, horror is a means not only of absorbing the reader in the tale but also, explicitly, obliterating the self-consciousness of the story's characters, who commonly fall into states of absolutely rapt presentness, or rapture, or terror, or reverie. Bernstein then goes on to quote Dickinson's "I would not paint - a picture-" as a "radically absorptive poetic" and writes Not to describe or incant but to be the thing described, "endued" - endowed - "Baloon"; to be inside, lighter than, "things," inflated by them, so absolutely absorbed as to be floating "Enamored - impotent - content"; for such enrapturement leaves one impotent to affect the world, since to be able to affect requires that one is removed from; & this armless connection not only leaves one content but also, & the double sense is crucial to the metaphysics of the poem, makes one CONtent, thinged - bolts one to the other side of the see/seen divide. Yet to be able to be absorbed into this other side requires jolts, an antiabsorptive disruption of complacent pictoral "talk." So to "stun" is to shock into one's senses, an ecstatic, perhaps mystical, transport into what Howe calls the "thrilling anonymity" of Dickinson's poetics. Author disappears & by this act "licenses" the "luxury" of a deeper absorption, by the reader, in the poem than otherwise imaginable. There are other correspondences between Bernstein's absorption and Longinus's Sublime (which engulfs, as the Sublime is wont to do, the Burkean and Kantian Sublimes). _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:11:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit BlazeVOX2k2 online.journal.of.voice Featuring New Media and Poetry Avant Garde http://www.vorplesword.com/ Spring 2002 This is a special email announcing the spring issue of BlazeVOX2k2 Please take a moment to stop on by take in some of the eccentricities presented. Free ebooks !!! PDF friendly mobile poetry Not like some of those bargain poetry pages you see all the time with BlazeVOX2k2 You are always on the go. http://www.vorplesword.com/ Feature Jeffrey Jullich Tales of the Legion of Superheroes Donna White 8 Paintings Poetry Patrick Herron Joseph Milford Francis Raven Joe Keenan Alan Sondheim Geoffrey Gatza New Media Erika Millar Shaquanica Xone David Gelling Jonas Norwall-Snout Ezra Pound http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ http://www.vorplesword.com/ Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:08:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: REMINDER: Poetry: JOANNE KYGER this Saturday evening, Sunday afternoon (POG & Chax) Comments: To: Tenney Nathanson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit REMINDER: POETRY READING & WORKSHOP by JOANNE KYGER Reading: Saturday, March 2, 7pm, St. Philips Church, West Gallery NE Corner of Campbell and River $5 admission / $3 students Workshop: Sunday, March 3, 1:30-3:00 pm Poetry Center, University of Arizona 1216 N. Cherry Ave. (1½ blocks north of Speedway) Participation fee: $10 Presented by POG and CHAX PRESS with assistance from Arizona Teachings, Inc., University of Arizona Poetry Center, and friends. Please call Chax Press at 620-1626 for information. Joanne Kyger, a native Californian, is the author of 20 books of poetry, the most recent being Again: Poems 1989-2000 from La Alameda Press, Albuquerque, N.M. Her Selected Poems is forthcoming from Penguin Books in 2002. As a poet, Kyger has been associated with the Beat writers and the San Francisco Renaissance. She has lived on the coast north of San Francisco for the past 30 years. She teaches at Naropa Institute in Boulder, Colorado, and the New College of California, in San Francisco. View North Back dropped blue-grey clouds warm lull a spot of sun in this clearing of moment transferred— a perfectly peaceful point of view— Larry Eigner's window. Salute you Larry! Seagull cries 3 times and then the crow, also a reef grazer, slowest, easiest, then smooth layers exhale— Don't let yourself get away from that conversational tone line of the reef emerging low tide, windless February 2, 1996 —Joanne Kyger She’s one of our hidden treasures — the poet who really links the Beats, the Spicer Circle, the Bolinas poets, the New York School, and the Language poets, and the only poet who can be said to do all of the above. — Ron Silliman Our literary histories of the last quarter of the twentieth century were all written far too soon — in fact, before the period had even been lived. When this history is finally rewritten, as it will have to be, Joanne Kyger will assume a central place. She is one of the finest practioners of the art of poetry conceived (after Whitman and Williams, among others) as the preservation of experience in language. The scale of Kyger’s poetry is human existence; spoken language provides its measure; the animating force is curiosity. Out of these materials she has accomplished something magnificent and beautiful. She has many peers but no betters. — Ben Friedlander In stressing the self as a phenomenon, as appearing, being there - Joanne Kyger's work encourages one to move beyond the tendency to see two types of poets (women and men), which in feminist scholarship has produced a particular, unfavorable model of literary productions. Her work encourages one to see women writers as gesturing outward - in the same generous sense that Charles Olson saw Robert Creeley as a "figure of outward." This «Jacket» feature ventures in that direction with an array of critical readings, none of them particularly attuned to gender but all of them responsive to the powerful insistence of Joanne Kyger's cultivated line and ear, and the graceful persistence of a continually evolving poetic, one that lets the self go through listening to what's there - from the intimate notebook page and the company it keeps to larger temporalities and geographies - to create a self, broad and sweeping. — Linda Russo from JOANNE "JOANNE is a novel from the inside out." what I wanted to say was in the broad sweeping form of being there I am walking up the path I come home and wash my hair I am bereft I dissolve quickly I am everybody reprinted from Joanne, Angel Hair, 1970 *** POG events are sponsored in part by grants from the Tucson/Pima Arts Council, the Arizona Commission on the Arts, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. POG also benefits from the continuing support of The University of Arizona Poetry Center, the Arizona Quarterly, Chax Press, and The University of Arizona Department of English . We also thank the following POG donors: Patrons Austin Publicover and Mark & Gail Seldess; Sponsors Sam Ace, Charles Alexander, Alison Deming, Maggie Golston, Mary Rising Higgins, Elizabeth Landry, Allison Moore, Sheila Murphy, Heather Nagami & Tim Peterson, Tenney Nathanson, Stacey Richter, Jesse Seldess, and Frances Sjoberg.for further information contact POG: 296-6416; mailto:pog@gopog.org; or visit us on the web at www.gopog.org *** mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/ POG: http://www.gopog.org mailto:pog@gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 21:38:29 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a question, on behalf of an Australian zen teacher who's also an experimental musician & writer: he's interested in publishing a CD version of stuff he's doing that combines his music & some short prose texts he's written. He's got some kind of big grant for his music, so he's pretty well established in that area, I think; probably less known as a writer. anyway: any ideas about presses that might consider this sort of project? I know Hard Press did at least one CD version of a book, but I guess they're no longer active. thanks for any leads, best, Tenney mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/ POG: http://www.gopog.org mailto:pog@gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:56:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: new issue of mosaic literary magazine - winter 2002 issue In-Reply-To: <0.1600010764.481664884-1463792382-1014735649@topica.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit FYI! ---------- Mosaic Literary Magazine Winter 2002 issue www.mosaicbooks.com The Winter 2002 issue of Mosaic is now available for you to enjoy. But we still need your help to continue. Please show your support by subscribing at this eDrummer's rate of $7.00! (56% off the $4 cover price) for four issues. If you are already a subscriber you can extend your subscription at this new low rate. Follow link to subscribe now. http://www.mosaicbooks.com/edrum.htm or mail your check to the address below. WINTER 2002 CONTENT James Earl Hardy Hardy, author of the successful "B-Boy" series of novels, has become the defacto voice for same gender loving Black men. Read why he believe his "life" translates effectively in novels. by Lynne d. Johnson Gwendolyn Brooks Writers Conference Gwendolyn Brooks may no longer be with us but her spirit lives on in celebration every year at the writers conference named in her honor. by Nichole L. Shields Anthologize As more writers enter the literary market, more anthologies are being published, sometimes with surprising success. by Leah Mullen Interview: Joyce Palmer In the rich tradition of writers from the Caribbean, Joyce Palmer, author of Greenwichtown, has crafted a startling novel that examines the people living in a Jamaican ghetto. by Ron Kavanaugh excerpt Greenwichtown by Joyce Palmer In the Tradition: Cave Canem Tyehimba Jess, poet and educator, gives a firsthand look at his experience at Cave Canem. poems When you raise harmonica to your lips by Tyehimba Jess Toothpaste by E. Ethelbert Miller REVIEWS Approaching the Center by Myronn Hardy Bird At My Window by Rosa Guy Chester Himes: A Life by James Sallis Erasure by Percival Everett The Fire of the Origins by Emmanuel Dongala Here's To You, Jesusa by Elena Poniatowska Juice by Renee Gladman Living with Music: Ralph Ellison's Jazz Writings by Ralph Ellison My Grandmother's Erotic Folktales by Robert Antoni A Negro Explorer At the North Pole by Matthew Henson Nigger: The Strange Career of a Troublesome Word by Randall Kennedy Not Guilty: Twelve Black Men Speak Out on Law, Justice, and Life by Jabari Asim Soledad by Angie Cruz Turning South Again: Re-Thinking Modernism/Re-Thinking Booker T. by Houston Baker Mosaic Literary Magazine 314 w 231st St #470 Bronx, NY 10463 magazine@mosaicbooks.com www.mosaicbooks.com >> ============================================================ You CAN have Affordable Healthcare with Full Access Medical! It's only $49 a month a family and there are NO Claim Forms NO Medical Exams and NO Pre-Existing Condition Exclusions http://click.topica.com/caaafrebUrD3obVHWCIf/FullAccessMedical ============================================================ ############################################# this is e-drum, a listserv providing information of interests to black writers and diverse supporters worldwide. e-drum is moderated by kalamu ya salaam (kalamu@aol.com). ---------------------------------- to subscribe to e-drum send a blank email to: e-drum-subscribe@topica.com --------------------------------------------- to get off the e-drum listserv send a blank email to: e-drum-unsubscribe@topica.com ---------------------------------------------- to read past messages or search the archives, go to: http://www.topica.com/lists/e-drum ==^================================================================ This email was sent to: tisab@earthlink.net EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrD3o.bVHWCI Or send an email to: e-drum-unsubscribe@topica.com T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^================================================================ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 12:08:37 +1100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: An article on Internet literary magazines in S.F.Gate Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed The Literary Web: "Web sites featuring the word are thriving" by Glen Helfand, Special to SF Gate in San Francisco "In the fickle world of the Web, it's nice to know there are sites that are resistant to shifts in fashion and economy. Literary Web sites, for example, traffic in a form that moves at a less frenetic pace than other online media does. Communities of writers, especially those poets, spoken-word artists and experimental-prose writers whose works rarely make it to the shelves at Barnes and Noble, or even into the farther reaches of Amazon.com's warehouses, have made effective and enduring use of literary webzines -- and they may barely have noticed the fallout of the technology crash...." Read the rest of the article here at http://www.sfgate.com/technology/cultural/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 11:37:24 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: SF Gate: The Literary Web/Web sites featuring the word are thriving Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi All, Below is Glen Helfand's article on literary web publishing, which appears on SF Gate, the SF Chronicle's online site. I'm quoted in it, to my horror, saying "stuff" three times in one paragraph. Oh well. Dodie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This article was sent to you by someone who found it on SF Gate. The original article can be found on SFGate.com here: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2002/02/2 8/weblit.DTL ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Wednesday, January 27, 2002 (SF Gate) The Literary Web/Web sites featuring the word are thriving Glen Helfand, Special to SF Gate In the fickle world of the Web, it's nice to know there are sites that are resistant to shifts in fashion and economy. Literary Web sites, for example, traffic in a form that moves at a less frenetic pace than other online media does. Communities of writers, especially those poets, spoken-word artists and experimental-prose writers whose works rarely make it to the shelves at Barnes and Noble, or even into the farther reaches of Amazon.com's warehouses, have made effective and enduring use of literary webzines -- and they may barely have noticed the fallout of the technology crash. For a publishing cottage industry of small, independent presses and copy-machine poetry rags that, in pre-Internet days, were by necessity limited to three-figure circulation, the advent of the Web has made the prospect of distributing new, difficult, highbrow or edgy pieces of writing cheap and globally accessible. As one poet jests, "When those poems go live, everybody and their mother will be reading them." To scratch the surface of this international online subculture is to reveal a surprising number of publications that are well edited, inventive and sometimes even spiffily designed literary showcases. I polled poet and writer friends and was quickly directed to a thriving arena of journals, resource portals and hybrids of art, writing, news and other types of information. Almost everyone I contacted pointed me to Jacket, an Australian site that's perhaps as close to a traditional print poetry journal as can be created online. The site, which publishes a new issue roughly every two months, includes themed sections -- the latest issue features an all-star tribute to luminary Kenneth Koch -- reviews, poems and substantial scholarly papers; see Marjorie Perloff's article on "Translatability in Wittgenstein, Duchamp and Jacques Roubaud" in issue 14. Published by an office of one -- Sydney-based poet John Tranter, who claims to run this hefty enterprise for $1,000 a year -- the journal is very well organized (contents have been plotted out through December 2002) and are posted piece by piece. This is labor-of-love territory, with publisher/editors operating their sites on miniscule budgets or occasionally with the support of foundations or academia, but Tranter boasts in an e-mail that since the publication's debut in October 1997, the site has attracted over a third of a million visits, making Jacket one of the most widely read poetry magazines of all time. Numbers, however, are relative in the poetry world. "Sappho, Callimachus, Catullus, Li Bai and John Donne all had small audiences for their poetry," Tranter writes in a why-I-do-it essay called "The Left Hand of Capitalism." "And any serious poetry faces the same situation today -- it's not a profitable market anywhere in the world." There are hungry international consumers, though, and this method of distribution seems to reach them more effectively than the bookstore circuit does. Tranter writes, "In the first issue of Jacket, I published an interview I had recorded with the British poet Roy Fisher, and received an enthusiastic e-mail from a fan. The fellow was grateful for the chance to read an interview with his favorite poet, he said, and went on to explain, 'It's hard to find material on Roy Fisher up here in Nome, Alaska.'" The location of the publishing house, as is usually the case with Web endeavors, can be irrelevant. Frigate, a review of books and other literary pursuits that appears, based on its masthead, to have a large staff, boasts a sense of internationalism, with a current issue devoted to "The Anglophone Transpacific." In fact, the publication is a concerted effort by editors and contributors from geographically diverse desks. Patricia Eakins, in an e-mail from New York, explains that she has editors in Philadelphia, San Francisco, Massachusetts and France. The cobbling together of an issue, she adds, takes place entirely through online communication. "Creating the site has been a exhilarating, exhausting and eye opening," Eakins admits. "It is amazing what one person sitting at a computer can do! People often think that Frigate must have a 'real' office with cubicles and watercoolers and the like. Instead, it is all in the air." "I see these zines as an outgrowth of the mimeo revolution of the 60s," says Bill Berkson, a poet and critic and a professor of liberal arts at the San Francisco Art Institute. As a young New York poet during the 1950s Frank O'Hara period, Berkson has witnessed first-hand the publishing evolution. "We used to have collating parties, assembling the things," he adds. "The webzine thing isn't as sociable; there's less face-to-face time. But that's the way it is in the electronic age -- quick and inexpensive communication is key." San Francisco-based writers Dodie Bellamy and Kevin Killian edit and distribute 200 copies of a mimeo-style publication called Mirage. While they have no plans to digitize their very limited-edition publication -- Bellamy playfully calls this idea a "rumor" -- they appreciate the electronic form. "I think there's a lot of high-quality stuff out there," Bellamy says. Her own experimental prose has appeared on numerous Web sites, including Mark(s) and Stretcher (an arts and culture site I had a hand in founding). "It's a good venue for experimental-writing communities, because there's no cash economy for that kind of stuff anyway," Bellamy adds. "The publications come out more often and have more universal distribution -- you announce on a listserv, and you get people all over the world reading your stuff." Another site with decent numbers, though one with a radically different editorial viewpoint, is the online version of the Dave Eggers brainchild McSweeney's -- a compendium of articles, fiction, essays and literary news snippets of interest to youthful literati -- which logs 20,000 unique hits a day. Granted, the site, which has offbeat offerings like the smarty-pants "Readers' Interesting Experiences While Buying, Reading or Traveling with the Print Version," has an audience that's bolstered by the notoriety of a well-regarded and high-concept print publication, but the Web site has different content, and it's available for free. What does it do that its print counterpart can't? "Well, for one thing, the site can publish more pieces than in the print version," explains online editor Paul Maliszewski. "We publish more than five pieces a week, things like the letters from Elizabeth Miller's dad, who fights fires by helicopter, or Jeff Johnson's football picks, which Yahoo! named as one of the best things on the Internet in 2001. We published some really strong nonfiction relating to the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Even with our fairly short production schedule, it would have taken a couple of months for those pieces to appear in a print issue." Jacket and McSweeney's are visually and philosophically all about the text, and they're purposefully clean and simple in design in order to aid Web-page load times. In this way, they resemble the print versions of poetry and lit publications that are simply designed due to the prohibitive costs of high-quality color printing. The Web, however, offers the opportunity to affordably illustrate with full-color art, a prospect that can foster an exciting dialog or interplay between writers and artists. Or at least add a little spice to the page. Low Blue Flame is a Memphis-based site that ingeniously creates an interplay between image, text and playful conceits. Visually appealing and easy to load, the third issue is visually cohesive, with colorful, surrealistic Dick-and-Jane collage motifs and texts generated with inventive tropes -- in one case, writers such as Mark Ewart, Eileen Myles, Bruce Benderson were asked to write text to accompany pages from a vintage Wild West-themed coloring book. A section called Deep Thoughts pairs person-on-the-street snapshots with answers to the question, "What were you thinking just now?" The responses are short, sometimes poetic, sometimes banal. Even the interview format is given a twist here -- the aforementioned Kevin Killian is a featured interview subject, and his passion for celebrities is addressed by letting him lob back trenchant quips when he is tossed the names of movie and pop stars: "Leo DiCaprio: I thought he was retarded in 'What's Eating Gilbert Grape?'" The site is organized by novelist Brian Pera (whose book "Troublemaker" is just out in paperback), who is interested in addressing the Web's strengths and weaknesses. "I'm not convinced that people really read on the Web," he says. "People look at things online in a scattershot manner. I'm trying to create a mix of elements that won't extinguish someone's attention span. I think of it less as something people read in its entirety than as a teaser to make people want to read more." Things get more technologically complex at Arras, a portal-like site that links to a number of splashy Web sites that explore notions of text. There are links, for example, to a theory-heavy but graphically sharp piece called "New Digital Emblems" and something called The Pornolizer, which inserts nasty language into any Web site you care to submit. A larger number of sites, however, are more humble, community-building affairs. San Francisco-based poet Del Ray Cross started (Shampoo just two years ago as a way to keep up with poet friends in Boston. (He will celebrate its anniversary and 10th issue with a reading on March 1.) Cross has seen submissions to his site, which features poetry and a smattering of art in each issue, grow continuously. It's an ad-free, open-submission deal in which poets are encouraged, in a large-font link, to submit their work on the homepage. "It's really taken off," he says. "I get a lot of submissions now, and it's becoming more difficult to find time to do the site and be a writer." The interactive nature of Web sites allows for easy communication and ready access to a vast pool of material. Whereas many print poetry journals charge writers an income-generating fee to consider their poetry, many sites rely on online submissions. "Every now and then, I'll solicit a piece of writing from someone I know, which basically means I hear that they have a story and I ask them to write it down," admits McSweeney's online editor Paul Maliszewski. "Usually, there's a phone call involved, some arm-twisting and not a little begging. But 90 percent or more of what we publish arrives first as unsolicited submissions from readers." Shampoo editor Del Ray Cross basically selects whatever submitted work he likes, and he tends to like work that's somewhat playful, and tends to mix more established poets with unknowns. One would surmise, however, that with an open call for work and the ease of e-mail, he receives quite a bit of junk. "I'm getting more bad stuff," Cross concurs, "but getting a lot more submissions -- these days, around 25 poems a week." He admits, however, that at least half of the submissions are rejected. "I try to appreciate something in whatever I get," Cross says. "A lot of other magazines are stricter in genre of what they publish. I like to have a mix." He adds, "I published a poem in this issue by my cat." The free-and-easy tone of these online publications, however, may tilt a bit too much toward the free side for some. Because webzines are a new arena for writers and editors, their legitimacy is not yet established. And like other Internet interactions, practitioners often have a sense of ambivalence. A number of writers say that when a piece appears online, publishers are less likely to consider the work for print publications. Others point out that some literary grant-giving organizations have inconsistent policies when it comes to recognizing a webzine as a valid citation. While these issues pose a dilemma, most writers opt for getting their work out in the world. Most of the writers and readers I contacted for this story, however, qualified their response by saying that although Web access is an amazing, democratizing thing, the printed page is still their first choice as a reading format. Still, the e-zines have become too valuable and resourceful a component in the literary universe to live without. So, if and when the fickle Web economy hits another bump, these sites will most likely still be comfortably curled up with something good to read. Glen Helfand is a freelance writer, critic, and curator. His writing on art, culture and technology has appeared in The Bay Guardian, Wired, Limn, Salon, Travel and Leisure and nest. glen_h@sfgate.com   ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Copyright 2002 SF Gate ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 20:40:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trame ouest Subject: SOIREE OLYMPIC CAFE - PARIS le 18-03-2002 Comments: To: theatre.universitaire@wanadoo.fr, Nadia Otto , a.blachair@ac-nancy-metz.fr, anne Kowalski , abderrahim noureddine , abrasileiro@email.com.br, acidkirk25@yahoo.com, "Exam.fr" , adaguin@voila.fr, Ivan Bierhanzl , aguibert-certoux , akenaton-docks@sitec.fr, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane?= Vasselin , Alain.HELISSEN@wanadoo.fr, Oscar Brenifier , aldante@club-internet.fr, aleph@ml.free.fr, Pierre alferi , Talenacademie , Alain =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Hup=E9?= , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Anne=2DMich=E8le?= Cremer , ambroise.barras@bluewin.ch, Amelie Schmitz , Amwa Respect , Andras Toth , Andricq Pierre , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lien?= Nicolas , Ann Demeester , anne-james.chaton@libertysurf.fr, anne , Anne Wlomainck , anne de sterk , annettekrebs@yahoo.com, Anne Van der Linden , Annick Marsac-Morin , Emmanuel , antoine.dufeu@wanadoo.fr, Antoine Moreau , sebastien LEFEBVRE , Thierry ARNAUD , "armen.avanessian@worldonline.fr" , Juan Asensio , asso_edl@club-internet.fr, La Lettre D'Atlantiques , AtomFilms , Antoine Tshitungu , auteurs , Avner , ballade@forez.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane?= LAURENT , Pierre-Paul Battesti , Rebecca , vincent de pommery , BEN.B@MAILCLUB.NET, Benoit Denis , Alain Bench , rossignol benoit , Bernard Desroches , Olivier Bersou , bfalaise@sympatico.ca, bferriot@mageos.com, Benoit Hennaut , Nina des Fontaines , biplan@chez.com, Bernadette Jacquenet , Adrian Smith , blaise.buscail@free.fr, Blockhaus DY-10 , bour.olivier@wanadoo.fr, Bouvet Patrick , Petra Brandl , briseglace@hotmail.com, Jeanine Paque , Benoit Schneckenburger , Patrick Burgaud , Catherine CLOSSON , Corinne Delfosse , "c.merlant" , Christophe Paillard , c.waals@chello.nl, Carnet Interdit , carine.l@free.fr, caroline deseille , Caroline Moreau , Philippe Carles , "carre.sarah" , casino@cafe-charbon.net, "F.Fouque" , Catherine Harris , cathy.heyden@free.fr, catic , cburnier@club-internet.fr, Dominique REPECAUD , cdesmarest@free.fr, CDI - =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Lyc=E9e?= Lavoisier , "Cecile, Wartelle" , cedric.routier1@libertysurf.fr, ch@canalv.com, chaudeman@aol.com, Tof , chloe delaume , Christian Delcourt , Christian Prigent , Christian , Christiane Krauss , christine.maillard@mairie-nantes.fr, "christo.fiat@voila.fr" , cipmarseille@wanadoo.fr, cl@canalv.com, claire.guezengar@mairie-nantes.fr, claire lejeune , Claude Mortier , ClaudeObadia@aol.com, "Christine Le =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Doar=E9?= (by way of Michel Bujardet)" , clizr@club-internet.fr, Christian Morzewski , Luc =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Coll=E8s?= , concept.plastique@wanadoo.fr, radio beton , xavier leton , Citrouille , Dominique Costermans , costes@costes.org, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Th=E9o?= Jarrier , Catherine Piette , Virginie Devillers , Anne Cauquelin , cric-crac , Crilulo , CRUZ , culture@lemonde.fr, Cypora Petitjean-Cerf , cyrillelanoe@hotmail.com, Denis Anne , Didier Lesaffre , d.wagner@freesurf.fr, Bernard Delcort , Dame Tartine , DAMIEN , Daniel Rodaro , darry.as@wanadoo.fr, David-EMmanuel TYSMAN , David Christoffel , David Simard , Webmaster , davidriochet@yahoo.fr, dbretesche@caramail.com, dc@lederniercri.org, Alain de filippis , Adimante , jean delcourt , denis dufour , Denis , Denis , Denis Hamel , Laurent Deom , derrierelasalledebains , diana gay , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Genevi=E8ve?= Dieu , dinetah , dominique-fagnot , Dominique Friart , Dominique Mortier , Dominique Mortier , donguy@club-internet.fr, dosimonet2 , n'guyen/dsa , Genevieve Duchene , durain celine , Durand Regis , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9ric?= giraud , "Eliane, Ariane Edouard AUJALEU" , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?V=E9ronique?= Jago , E.Lysoe@univ-mulhouse.fr, EDITIONSMEMO@DIAL.OLEANE.COM, edlav , educommun@musica-falsa.presse.fr, Kerenn =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Elka=EFm?= , emmanuel.gaudin@mairie-nantes.fr, emmanuelrabu@free.fr, Paul Emond , enginusmailer , entrevue@clubinternet.fr, ENTROPIE , epids@yahoo.fr, "Costeix, Eric" , Eric Sadin , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9ric=20Such=E8re?= , eric@electrofish.org, ericbrun , Marie-Paule =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Esk=E9nazi?= , Etienne Goffette , eubios , eudeline , evalo3@hotmail.com, extrapol@desk.nl, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?fran=E7ois?= haget , Dutuit , "fabrice.bothereau" , Francis Dannemark , ferdinand Gouzon , Festival franco-anglais de =?ISO-8859-1?Q?po=E9sie?= , Forum Gai et Lesbien , pandemonium-records , Francois Jarraud , foetus@fr.fm, francis.dannemark@swing.be, franck.laroze@wanadoo.fr, franckdoyen@net-up.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois=2EFouqu=E9?= , francois , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Fran=E7ois?= Morron , Frans De Haes , Frans Denissen , "fred.fauquier" , POSTEL , Trop Fat , FRINGANT Stephane , g.mueller@datacomm.ch, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ga=E9tane?= Laurent-Darbon , gainon@editions-cylibris.fr, galerie.bernard.jordan@wanadoo.fr, enfer vertical en approche rapide ___8 , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=C9RALD=20LARCH=C9?= , gertessier@aol.com, gerard FRANTZ , Gilbert Boss , Gilbert Kirouac , Gilles CABUT , john giorno , isa , Julien Ottavi , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Gr=E9gory?= Gutierez , Guido Albertelli , guillaume morel , Thomas Gunzig , HARANG JACQUES , Heiner Wittmann , Henri =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=E9ride?= , Biblio =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Herg=E9?= , herve.castanet@wanadoo.fr, leo leo , hippopotame-de-thebes , Mo , HUGO BELIT , Nathalie Lorette , iblin@ville-dunkerque.fr, ibrimont@decant-jullien.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Agn=E8s?= Giard , Improjazz , incident@incident.net, Olympic , "info@sonoris.org" , vud'un oeuf , infos , inventaire@metafort.org, isabelle garron , isabelle.quennefranc@wanadoo.fr, "j.audran" , Jean-Pierre Hamel , jablonk@pi.net, "jacob.e2" , Jacqueline De Clercq , jacques.boy@caramail.com, Jacques Lebreton , Jean-Claude Caillaux , Jean =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Cl=E9ment?= , Jean-Christophe Menu , JDABRIGEON@aol.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=F4me?= Debrulle , jean louis blaquier , Jean-Marie =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tr=E9guier?= , LEWANDOWSKI Jean-Noel PREF41 , Jean Danhaive , JeanLuc Derrien , LTP Les Fauvettes , Jean Daniel Roche , Jean-Luc Clavier , "j.pelletier" , Jean Romain , "J.E. 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, previtali@mairie-narbonne.fr, Pascal Turlan , pulsomatic@free.fr, p_angelique@yahoo.fr, qdelplanque@aol.com, r-froger.mtq@ville-lemans.fr, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?r=E9gis?= boulard , "r.lafite" , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9my?= Potier , rachelstephane@wanadoo.fr, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Th=E9=E2tre?= du radeau , "radio.grenouille" , radioluxe@free.fr, Rasgandji , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rapha=EBl?= Bessis , Robin Delisle , RECREC , redaction@chaoid.com, oeil electrique , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9gine?= Vandamme , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9gis?= , "renaud.camus" , Renaud Dogat , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?renault=2Flib=E9?= , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Chiche , resplandy-guillain , revue =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=26corrig=E9e?= , Revue Incidences , Rodrigo Reyes , riandiere , Richard Couaillet , richard.meier@wanadoo.fr, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Ren=E9?= Lavergne , "robert.redeker" , Roberto Merrill , Roland Fuentes , Hubert Roland , Remy Reichhart , Raymond Trousson , Rune Grammofon , rvlaurent@hotmail.com, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Herv=E9?= Moine , 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Jaillon , Phil Tremble , Trempolino , triboulet , tripty@generation.net, Moulinier Didier , unsurfeur , Vincent , verdun@mbox5.singnet.com.sg, vgbroqua@wanadoo.fr, vic@bmedia.be, villagebunker1@aol.com, Vincent Pineau , Ian Monk , visceres@hotmail.com, Alain Vuillemin , Walk , Walter Galvani , CLaudine Lison , webmaster , WEBMASTER , INFOS , Louis Ceschino , Xavier Malbreil , Xavier Leton , Xavier Deutsch , xcl@free.fr, Xavier Hanotte , programmateur-pezner , Rolland Auda , yasmine.tigoe@ouest-france.fr, yves botz , Gilles Bailly , yanik miossec , younamarsauche@hotmail.com, ysg.gillier@wanadoo.fr, yt@canalv.com, philippe boisnard , yvanfrais@hotmail.com, Yves Potin , zerguine@breathmail.net, zozios@wanadoo.fr, Nadia Otto , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Aur=E9lie?= NICOLINO , caroline GLEYZE , Cathy ROSSIGNOL , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Cl=E9a?= BRUNSCHWIG , Emmanuel RIVIERE , Gilles MATE , Isabelle MAYORAL , Laurence MULLALY , Laurent ROUX , Karine LEBARZIC , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien?= OMONT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit LINGE SALE EN FAMILLE lectures + vidéos + musique le lundi 18 mars à 20h30 à l'Olympic Café > Videront leur sac Philippe Boisnard Charles-Mézence Briseul Antoine Dufeu Christophe Manon Emmanuel Rabu + Basile Ferriot + Philip Tremble Nicolas Tardy > Essorage à 5 euros (PAF) > Assouplissage par les Editions Trame Ouest - 22, rue Pasteur - 62000 Arras - trame.ouest@wanadoo.fr Olympic Café 20, rue Léon - 75018 Paris 01 42 52 29 93 M° Chateau-Rouge / Marcadet Poissonniers ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 16:35:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Popken Subject: poe/thics in your ear and foot. Comments: To: loadedword@egroups.com, pppoetics@lists.colorado.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii -----------*--*---*--*-*-*********--------*---******-*-*-*-*-*------------------- This Sat, Feb 28, 9-11 pm MST, www.radio1190.org [or 1190 AM if yer in the area) MC BRAZEN and MC RAPIER de*s*tru*ct the headspace airwaves. on LOW-LAND, Colorado's premier Drum N Bass broadcast hosted by The Frog. tune in, explore the oscillating convergence. --------------------- it's free. it's fun. it's freaky. you're already underestimating us, but that's okay. --:::------****END. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:02:24 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Digital Poetics MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I think that "I think, therefore..." got us into a lot of false thinking. But now even "hard science" is changing slowly - there's an article in _Gut_ last year sometime called "I'm pink, therefore I am" that basically establishes the scientific evidence for gut feelings. Maybe it depends on where someone thinks their "I" is? tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 05:11:35 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: digital poetics MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Joe, I can see what komninos notes in the USCentered focus of poetry folk here in the good old - but I do think Loss is much more aware of life outside the continental than most. I would, however, welcome more input here from you on the gap you note. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Amato" To: Sent: Friday, February 22, 2002 12:29 PM Subject: Re: digital poetics > komninos, sure, i acknowledge that... i was impressed esp. to see kac > given his due... i had talked about his work in 1998, at a suny/stony > brook conference on new arts/new humanities, and only the arts depts. > folks seemed to have heard of him... > > my referencing the hawisher volume was not meant to lay the emedia > situation squarely within u.s. confines... but do have a look at > same, as you'll realize that the ferment out of which you get a > michael joyce or a stuart moulthrop (and i should say up-front here > that these two guys are friends of mine from way back) is something > of the same ferment out of which you get a johndan johnson-eilola, > carolyn guyer, martha petry, j. yellowlees douglas, cindy selfe, and > many others---some of whom you'll find cited in loss's volume, some > of whom you won't... > > broadly, some of the focus here can be captured by reviewing the > names on the editorial board of the journal ~computers and > composition~ (yes, you will find my name there too)... i wouldn't > want to reduce digital arts (a newer concept) to computers and > writing... but i met michael joyce at u of illinois @ > urbana-champaign in 1991, as one of the writing practitioners brought > in to talk to us about hypertext (i sat up on the stage and clicked > through ~afternoon~ based on audience reading choices, as michael > read each passage aloud---well, this is perhaps a self-aggrandizing > way of putting it!)... it was gail hawisher (who coedits ~computers > and composition~ with cynthia selfe) who brought michael in, along > with jay bolter, (the late) james berlin, joseph williams, and others > (you will note that all of these folks are composition folks, or > affiliated with the teaching of writing, save for jay bolter---whose > ~writing space~ was published on a press, lawrence erlbaum, that > boasts something of a social science/empirical take on composition, > and anything but a literary-critical orientation)... the first time i > met stuart moulthrop and nancy kaplan was at a computers and writing > conference in indianapolis... and the first hypertexts i rec'd from > my writing students as final projects, owing of course to > urbana-champaign's substantial funding for technology, are dated 1991 > (bob jones, an 18th century lit scholar by training, as i recall, had > put together a helluva hypermedia lab at uiuc by the early 90s... in > fact i think he published an article on same in ~academic computing~ > in the late 80s)... > > that's one set of contexts that seems to me entirely vital, perhaps > more telling in historical terms that the prose/narrative bias (esp. > given the general *lack* of emphasis in writing circles on poetry and > poetics, though at one point, ~computers and composition~ published > poetry, kinda like ~college english~ used to do)... > > another context might go something like this: that the information > age thinking that led to the term "digital arts" have yet to fully > account for the sort of work you find in david porush's ~the soft > machine~ and steve heim's ~the cybernetics group~... i.e., as don > byrd long ago explained to me, if the history of cybernetics is ever > entirely unpacked, folks like heinz von foerster (and places like > urbana-champaign, where you can find on the shelves in the > communication library a copy of foerster's ~the cybernetics of > cybernetics~) will most assuredly loom large... loss does, to his > credit, give a brief summary of this situation (see the beginning of > his chapter 5, in which he also mentions brown's intermedia > project---another forerunner to all of this, and folks like nelson, > bush, etc.)... > > but my sense, in any case, and to put it somewhat harshly, is that > what's happened here is what typically happens to the word > "composition" within english lit circles: it tends to drop out of > the mix, and what's left becomes a matter of (in this case, > literary/digital) genre and formal classification and the like... the > larger insight would be that this is the way literary studies > codifies knowledge (and along with knowledge as such comes a sense of > history, of course)... still, the institutional ferment out of which > you get many of the current u.s. academic hypertext practitioners and > theorists (incl. yours truly) is underwritten by an orientation > toward writing-composition (and that dastardly academic term, > composition pedagogy)... fred kemp's MBU (megabyte university), the > first online list to which i subscribed (and the first in which i got > mself into the middle of a flamewar, with joseph williams, about what > properly constitutes a "theory"), was all about computers and > writing, and in fact, there was a proportionately greater number of > women on this online list than you might expect (which is in fact one > of the lessons of hawisher et al.'s history of computers and > writing)... there are other events that, to my way of thinking, were > kind of major---the online electronic salon held back in, was it > 1992? by deakin u? (i think it was, just can't recall at the > moment)... and then there are the multiple volumes hawisher and selfe > have edited on computers and writing... > > in all, i was pleased to see in ~digital poetics~ an emphasis on the > digital arts (emphasis on arts), but i am distressed to see the > writing communities of which i speak get such short-shrift... i > understand too that one book can't do it all---but given my druthers, > i would have liked to see more emphasis on this latter writing > history... > > apologies to all for zipping off these remarks with autobiographical > zeal---but much of what i'm talking about hits close to home... > > best, > > joe > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:18:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: John Wieners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sad news: John Wieners died yesterday, 1 March 2002 in Boston. He was hospitalized about a week ago when he was found unconscious some time after leaving a party. The cause of death was a brain aneurysm. Wieners was one of the great lyric voices -- with all the psychic cracks & sufferings such a stance entails -- of the second half of the past century. Here is his bio note from the "Selected Poems 1958-1984" volume (Black Sparrow Press, 1986): JOHN WIENERS was born in Milton, Mass, in 1934 and received his A.B. from Boston College in 1954. He studied at Black Mountain College under Charles Olson and Robert Duncan from 1955 to 1956. He returned to Boston where he brought out three issues of a literary magazine, Measure, over the next several years. From 1958 to 1960 he lived in San Francisco, and was an active participant in the San Francisco Poetry Renaissance movement. He returned to Boston in 1960, and divided his time between there and New York City, over the next five years. In 1965 he enrolled in the Graduate Program of the State University of New York at Buffalo, and worked as a teaching fellow. He has worked as an actor and stage manager at the Poet's Theatre, Cambridge, and has had three of his plays performed at the Judson Poet's Theater, N.Y. Since 1970 he has lived and worked in Boston, where he has been active in publishing and education cooperatives, political action committees, and the gay liberation movement. And here is a poem from his 1964 book _Ace of Pentacles_: An Anniversary of Death He too must with me wash his body, though at far distant time and over endless space take the cloth unto his loins and on his face engage in the self same rising as I do now. A cigarette lit upon his lips; would they were mine and by this present moon swear his allegiance. If he ever looks up, see the clouds and breeches in the sky, and by the stars, lend his eyes shine. What do I care for miles? or rows of friends lined up in groups? blue songs, the light's bright glare. Once he was there, now he is not; I search the empty air the candle feeds upon, and my eyes, my heart's gone blind to love and all he was capable of, the sweet patience when he put his lips to places I cannot name because they are not now the same sun shines and larks break forth from winter branches. ________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 "É melhor ser cabeça de sardinha Tel: (518) 426-0433 do que traseiro de baleia" Fax: (518) 426-3722 Email: joris@ albany.edu Url: ____________________________________________________________________________ _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 21:16:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: John Wieners (1934-2002) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There is an audio file of John Wieners reading "A poem for Painters" from The Hotel Wentley Poems (1958) at Joel Kuszai's Factory School site. The sound starts out pretty shaky, but the reading of "A poem for Painters" brings out all that is great in Wieners ... all that is already acutely missed, even in these few hours since his death. http://www.factoryschool.org/content/poetry/wieners/wieners.ram __________________________ from "A poem for Painters" [6] ... This nation is so large, like our hands, our love it lives with no lover, looking only for the beloved, back home into the heart, New York, New England, Vermont green mountains, and Massachusetts my city, Boston and the sea. Again to smell what this calm ocean cannot tell us. The seasons. Only the heart remembers and records them in the words of works we lay down for those men who come to them. 7. At last. I come to the last defense. Note My poems contain no wilde beast, no lady of the lake no music of the spheres, or organ chants, yet I know by these lines I betray what little given me. One needs no defense. Only the record of a man's struggle to stay with what is his own, what lies within him to do. Without which is nothing, And I come to this, knowing the waste, leaving the rest up to love and its twisted faces my hands claw out at only to draw back from the blood already running there. Oh come back, whatever heart you are left. It is my life you save. [text based on Wiener's performance on this recording] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 04:56:58 -0800 Reply-To: rloden@concentric.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Loden Organization: Rachel Loden Subject: Re: John Wieners (1934-2002) In-Reply-To: <200203030215.g232FK026414@beasley.concentric.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The beauty of men never disappears But drives a blue car through the stars. --John Wieners Will miss him terribly. And I never met him. But he was with me through decades and what he was entered and informed me in ways I will never be fully able to account for or repay. "He's gone and taken / my morphine with him / _Oh Johnny._ Women in / the night moan yr. name" from "A Series" (in _Ace of Pentacles_): 5.3 Rain today and rain in the self. Reign. Return to the place of imprisonment. Reign of life, how many years left to bury the old heart and give birth to the new? Reign of years, with each day a marking place of what happens in the universe, what comes into ken, of the stars and their turning. What one does not know. Will never know. The desire to pierce space and be up on the moon. Doomed as fellow men to walk this place with sweat on our forehead. That we are not given enough, must find the means to fulfill our existence. That we are given enough, too much as a distraction to pene- trate the essential core of our being. And what is that but a hollow place? No radiant outpouring as stars of light. We have eaten away our basic substance, fed it to the drugs, of days when there was nothing to do. Too many on the calendar. And yet this is substance, this despair. To walk with it as a beloved companion, or friend. See that as the broken leg we try to mend. Cripples with no crutch, looking for the broken tree to fashion into a stump. And yet this is not the true condition. There are comedies and comedians. Flowers in blossom. The same old dirge. Age-old. The curse of "Adam" that each man is heir to, and equipped for--interrupted by the doctor coming down the hall--that each man is heir, and for which each is equipped. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 11:28:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: In Memoriam John Weiners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII forward from Tom Raworth -- ****** Bob Creeley just asked me to send you the URL to a quick In Memoriam John Wieners page I put up this morning... http://tomraworth.com/wieners.html It simply has the dates, a picture, and the note extracted from an e-mail from Bob early this morning: >There had been a party last Sunday on Beacon Hill somewhere, small > number, and John had enjoyed it -- then decided to walk back to his place, > had some sort of seizure on the way, got as far as a parking garage, and they > called and got him to Mass General where he was for some days sans > identification. But something on his person got them his address, and so > they finally connected with Jim Dunn (who called) and Charlie Shiveley, both > of whom got to hospital in time to see John got last rites. I think that all > happened yesterday. Jim said fact of John's being the few days in hospital > sans anyone's knowing were hard to think of -- but they did get there, and he > died with friends there -- and god willing had little consciousness beyond > fact of walking home after pleasant evening. yours, Tom Raworth ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 14:59:03 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mariana Ruiz Firmat Subject: Re: En Mexicali y Tijuana Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Can anyone backchannel the information on the Cuban lit conference? Thanks Mariana Ruiz Firmat >From: "J. Kuszai" >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: En Mexicali y Tijuana >Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 20:21:15 -0800 > >FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN THE BAJA CALIFORNIA REGION >THIS IS PROBABLY OF SOME INTEREST. > > >> >>En Mexicali y Tijuana >>Realizan V Festival Internacional de Literatura Experimental >> >> + El evento contará con la presencia de Miki Guadamur y su concepto >>de pop electrodoméstico >>+ Regresa Doug Rice a Baja California para presentar su trabajo más >>reciente >>+ Bajo el concepto de Simulacrum, reúnen una muestra de poesía >>visual, videopoesía, audiopoesía y arte postal >>+ El festival se llevará a cabo una vez más en Mexicali y Tijuana sin >>ningún costo para el público >>+ Una excelente oportunidad para acercarse a la experimentación >>literaria contemporánea >> >>14 países estarán representados en Simulacrum, V Festival >>Internacional de Literatura Experimental >> >>El próximo viernes 1 y sábado 2 de marzo de 2002 se llevará a cabo >>SIMULACRUM, el quinto festival de literatura experimental de la >>oganización A. V. TEXT-FEST. El evento contará con la representación >>de 14 países y la presencia de Miki Guadamur, Doug Rice, Octavia >>Davis y Bill Marsh. >> >>El evento, organizado en Mexicali desde 1998 por Bibiana Padilla >>Maltos, Alejandro Espinoza y Carlos Gutiérrez Vidal, cuenta este año >>con el apoyo del Centro Cultural Tijuana y el Instituto de Cultura de >>Baja California. Gracias a este esfuerzo conjunto se podrá realizar >>una muestra de poesía visual y sonora, además de contar con la >>presencia de los cuatro invitados en ambas ciudades. La sede del >>evento en Mexicali será el Café Literario del Teatro del Estado, así >>como la Sala de Video del Cecut en Tijuana. >> >>Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh fueron fundadores, junto con Joel Kuszai, >>de Factory School (antes Sunbrella Network), un interesante proyecto >>de colaboración interdisciplinaria en la WWW. En esta ocasión vienen >>a presentar un proyecto hecho especialmente a partir de la idea del >>simulacro. >> >>Doug Rice es uno de los escritores norteamericanos más controvertidos >>y autor de Blood Of Mugwump. Su trabajo se caracteriza por un >>tratamiento transautobiográfico, así como por el uso de una >>mutagenesis sexual empleada como elemento estructurador del relato. >>La obra de Rice trasciende toda voluntad representacional y >>simbolismo literario, y apunta principalmente hacia una >>hipertextualidad implícita. Esta es la segunda ocasión que Doug Rice >>visita nuestro país, y SIMULACRUM será una excelente oportunidad para >>que el público entre en contacto con una muestra de la literatura >>norteamericana contemporánea más arriesgada e interesante. >> >>Miki Guadamur, músico, escritor y dibujante digital, es autor del >>libro Generation Mex, publicado por la editorial Moho. Desde 1997 ha >>venido desarrollando su concepto de pop electrodoméstico, realizando >>presentaciones en galerías, bares y cantinas, así como durante >>presentaciones de revistas, fanzines y exposiciones. Su trabajo sólo >>puede tener lugar en un conjunto de escenarios tan ecléctico que >>incluye, en el Distrito Federal, El Tecolote, Caja 2, El hoyo, las >>instalaciones de la Comisión Nacional del Deporte, Causa Joven, la >>discoteca Hysteria, el multiforo cultural Alicia, la 3a. Feria del >>libro en el World Trade Center, el Bar Lulú, La panadería, la Casa >>Refugio Citlaltépetl, la discobar Slava, DADA X y La Diabla; el Bar >>Iguana, el Museo Estatal de Culturas Populares, la galería >>Halicarnassus y la Facultad de Artes Visuales de la Universidad >>Autónoma de Nuevo León, en Monterrey; el Museo de Arte Contemporáneo >>de Lyon, y más recientemente en diversos espacios en la ciudad de >>Viena. >> >>Asimismo se ha presentado en algunos medios electrónicos como Radio >>Educación, Radioactivo, FrecuenciaTEC, el canal 28 de Monterrey, >>RadioUNAM y canal 4 de Televisa. También ha actuado en dos >>cortometrajes del CUEC, Vómito cuadrado y ¿Porqué se tardan tanto?, >>participando en este último como co-protagonista. Acerca de su >>trabajo, Miki Guadamur comenta en una entrevista publicada en La >>Jornada el 22 de octubre de 2000: >> >>"Lo que hago es más cercano al pop Televisa que al rock mexicano, un >>poco más retorcido... En el pop electrodoméstico mezclo pedazos de >>canciones y hago unas nuevas, les meto otra melodía, rapeo, >>sampleo... [...] Soy un entretenedor. Me satisfacen parcialmente los >>actos que veo en Televisa y lo que veo en el underground convertido >>en mainstream en los noventa no me satisface en lo absoluto... [...] >>...combino todo: la literatura, las imágenes en video de mi >>espectáculo y la música. [...] Miki es el personaje que está en el >>escenario, es fantasioso, se viste de manera llamativa de acuerdo con >>el tipo de idealización de la que hablo en mis canciones; es un poco >>como Ziggi Starduts; Guadamur es la persona... [...] ...si soy un >>Andy Warhol mexicano soy un Andy Warhol a la mitad." >> >>SIMULACRUM, V Festival de Literatura Experimental, se llevará a cabo >>el viernes 1 de marzo en el Café Literario del Teatro del Estado, en >>Mexicali, y el sábado 2 en la Sala de Video del Centro Cultural >>Tijuana a partir de las 20:00 horas. >> >>SIMULACRUM reunirá una variada selección de trabajos, cuyas >>características van del uso del video a la fotocopia, del arte postal >>al hipertexto. >> >>La relación de autores por país se distribuye de la siguiente manera: >> >>ARGENTINA: Fabio Doctorovich. AUSTRALIA: Pete Spence. BRASIL: >>Almandrade, Paulo Bacedonio, Avelino de Araujo, Roberto Keppler, >>Dórian Ribas Marinho, Franklin Valverde. CANADÁ: David Fujino. CHILE: >>Claudio Rodríguez Lanfranco. EL SALVADOR: Romeo Galdamez. ESPAÑA: >>César Reglero Campos. ESTADOS UNIDOS: Brad Brace, David Baptiste >>Chirot, Sheila Dollente, Sheppard Fairey, Allegra Fi Wakest, Bill >>Marsh, mIEKAL, Harry Polkinhorn, Doug Rice, Nico Vassilakis. FRANCIA: >>Stephane Pia, Cecile Touchon, ZAV. ITALIA: Vittore Baroni. MÉXICO: >>Guillermo Díaz Coello, Alejandro Espinoza Galindo, Ricardo E. >>Gonsalves, Carlos Adolfo Gutiérrez Vidal, Bibiana Padilla Maltos, >>Alberto RoblesT, Tamalez, Gerardo Yépiz. PORTUGAL: Fernando Aguiar. >>URUGUAY: Diego de los Campos, Clemente Padín. VENEZUELA: Aureliano >>Alfonzo. >> >>PROGRAMA DE ACTIVIDADES >> >>MEXICALI >>Viernes 1 de marzo de 2002 >>Café Literario del Teatro del Estado >> >>8:00 - 8:05 >>Inauguración. >>8:05 - 8:45 >>Exposición de poesía visual, audiopoesía, videopoesía y arte postal. >>Presentación de R2. >>8:45 - 9:15 >>Presentación del proyecto de Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh. >>9:15 - 9:35 >>Sonidos para después de despertar, polipoema de Carlos Adolfo Gutiérrez >>Vidal. >>9:35 - 10:20 >>Lectura del maestro Doug Rice. >>10:20 - 11:00 >>Presentación estelar de Miki Guadamur y su pop electrodoméstico. En >>vivo y a todo color. >> >>TIJUANA >>Sábado 2 de marzo de 2002 >>Sala de video del Cecut >> >>8:00 - 8:15 >>Inauguración. >>8:15 - 8:35 >>Muestra de poesía visual, audiopoesía, videopoesía y arte postal. >>8:35 - 9:05 >>Presentación del proyecto de Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh. >>9:05 - 9:30 >>Sonidos para después de despertar, polipoema de Carlos Adolfo Gutiérrez >>Vidal. >>9:30 - 10:00 >>Lectura del maestro Doug Rice >>10:00 - 10:40 >>Presentación estelar de Miki Guadamur y su pop electrodoméstico. En >>vivo y a todo color. >> >> >>Mayores informes: >>Alejandro Espinoza Galindo, Bibiana Padilla Maltos >>044 686 589.2547 >http://www.avtextfest.org >>Octavia Davis y Bill Marsh >>www.factoryschool.org >>Miki Guadamur >>www.geocities.com/guadahm >> >>--- end forwarded text >> >> >>-- > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 09:10:38 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: NPR Needs our Help Comments: To: genegrab@adelphia.net In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020227071847.009fe920@mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" This is bogus and has been circulating for more than 5 years. Like most e-petitions it just wastes effort, time and server space, for several reasons, not least being that the e-mail address to which you're supposed to send petitions to has been closed down for years. For more details about what's screwed up with this petition and the concept of e-petitions, check this Web page: >On NPR's Morning Edition last week, Nina Tottenberg >said that if the Supreme Court supports Congress, it >is in effect the end of the National Public Radio >(NPR), NEA & the Public Broadcasting System (PBS). >PBS, NPR and the arts are facing major cutbacks in >funding. In spite of the >efforts of each station to reduce spending costs and >streamline their services, some government officials >believe that the funding >currently going to these programs is too large a >portion of funding for >something which is seen as not worthwhile. The only >way that our representatives can be aware of the base >of support for PBS and funding >for these types of programs is by making our voices >heard. >Please add your name to this list and forward it to >friends who believe in >what this stands for. This list will be forwarded to >the President and the Vice President of the United >States. This petition is being passed around the >Internet. Please add your name to it so that funding >can be maintained for NPR, PBS, & the NEA. >HOW TO SIGN & FORWARD: IT'S EASY: Please keep this >petition rolling. Do not reply to me. Please sign and >forward to others to sign. If you prefer not to sign, >please send to the E-mail address indicated below. >DON'T WORRY ABOUT DUPLICATES. This is being forwarded >to several people at once to add their names to the >petition. >It won't matter if many people receive the same list >as the names are being managed. This is for anyone who >thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure of >$1.12/year of their taxes, a petition follows. If you >sign, >please forward on to others. If not please don't kill >it - send it to the >Email address listed here: >wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu > >If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th, etc., >signer of this petition, >please forward a copy to: >wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu > & >wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu > This way we can >keep track of the lists and Organize them. >NOTE: It is preferable that you SELECT (highlight) the >entirety of this >letter and then COPY it into a new outgoing message, >rather than simply forwarding it. In your new outgoing >message, add your name to the bottom of the list, >then send it on. Or if option is available, do a SEND >AGAIN. >851) Gertrude C Nuttman, Burlingame, CA 94010 >852) Claudette D. Schiratti, Shawnee, KS 66203 >853) Jean M. Dawson, Billings, MT 59102 >854) Nancy M. Skadden, Sturgeon Bay WI 54235 >854) Debra Skadden, Minneapolis, MN 55407 >855) Eileen M. Rowley, Mellenville, NY 12544 (form. >Eileen M.Goodspeed) >856) Chris Fisk, Ballston Lake, N. Y. 12019 >857) Ronald Thomas, Leonia NJ >858) Thomas Hill, Cambridge, Ma. 02140. >859) Peter McKinney, Cambridge, MA 02138 >860) Laurence Sperry, Brighton, MA 02135 >861) Elizabeth Dowey, Somerville , MA 02144 >862) Bill Barbeau, Somerville, MA 02144 >863) Kathleen Schnaidt, Dorchester, MA 02125 >864) John Rich, Dorchester, MA 02125 >865) Amy Newell, Brookline, MA 02446 >866) John and Ellen Newell, West Newton, MA 02465 >867) Constance Congdon, Amherst,MA 01002 >868) Arthur Kopit, New York, NY 10011 >869) David Shire, Palisades, NY 10964 >870) Didi Conn, Palisades, NY 10964 >871) John Phillips, Burbank, CA. 91505 >872) Peter Van Norden, Sherman Oaks, CA. 91411 >873) Michael DeVries, South Pasadena, CA 91030 >874) Shannon C. Klasell, New York, NY 10036 >875) Theresa D. Irrera, Fresh Meadows, N.Y. 11366 >876) Heather M. Dominick, New York, NY 10012 >877) Melanie Gold, New York, NY 10024 >878) Jamie Winnick, New York 10023 >879) John Long, Torrington, CT 06790 >880) Margo Zelie, Torrington, CT 06790 >881) Michael Allain Torrington, CT 06790 >882) David Smolover, Lakeside, CT 06758 >883) Nathaniel Gunod, Northfield, CT >884) Stephen Aron, Mansfield, OH >885) Klondike Steadman >886) Steve Kostelnik >887) Will Riley, Boston, MA 02131 >888) Masumi Yoneyama, Somerville, MA 02143 >889) Sonja Lynne, Woodlyn, PA 19094 >890) Rhoda Scott N. Long Branch, NJ 07740 >891) Gordon Harris, Somerset, NJ 08873 >892) Augustine Amegadzie, Somerset, NJ 08873 >893) Bernard Amegadzie, Indianapolis, IN 46236 >894) Senyo Opong, Wilmington, DE 19808 >895) Concetta LaMarca, Wilmington, DE 19802 >896) Ellen Lebowitz. Newark, DE 19711 >897) Dave Johnsrud Paramus, NJ 07652 >898) Katherine Richardson, Amherst, NH 03031 >899) Dr. Natacha Villamia Sochat, Amherst, NH 03031 >900) Dr. Michael Sochat, Amherst, NH 03031 >901) Jack Nunberg, Missoula, MT 59802 >902) Meg Trahey, Missoula, MT 59802 >903) Lishan Su, Chaple Hill, NC 27516 >904) Yan Li, Chapel Hill, NC 27516 >905) Tian Xu, New Haven, CT 06510 >906) Peter Tattersall, New Haven, CT 06510 >907) Ian Maxwell, Denver, CO 80207 >908) Dusty Miller, Seattle, WA 98105 >909) Sandy Haight, Seattle, WA 98112 >910) Kaaren Janssen, Guilford, CT 06437 >911) Ira Mellman, Guilford, CT 06437 >912) Michael Bobker, Brooklyn, NY 11238 >913) Marta Panero, Brookly, NY 11238 >914) Guido De Marco, Brooklyn, NY 11201 >915) Josh Bivens, Brooklyn, NY 11205 >916) George S. Chase IV, New York, NY 10009 >917) Nina Morrison, New York, NY 10028 >918) Joe Schiappa, Huntington, CT 06484 >919) Shira Piven >920) Adam McKay >921) Lisa Rosman, Brooklyn, NY 11238 >922) David Evans, Brooklyn, NY 11211 >923) Michelle Caulfield, Brooklyn NY 11238 >924) Michael La Fon, Brooklyn NY 11238 >925) Hildur Lindgren Carlen, Brooklyn NY 11201 >926) Conrad Carlen, Brooklyn NY 11201 >927) Jessica Gohlke, Brooklyn, Ny 11205 >928) Madelon Sprengnether, Minneapolis MN 55414 >929) Tom Clayton, St. Paul, MN 55104 >930) Judith Martin, Minneapolis, MN. 55401 >931) Patricia McDonnell, Curator, Weisman Art Museum, >Minneapolis, Minnesota >932) Megan Fox, New York, NY 10003 >933) Elizabeth Glassman, New York, NY 10016 >934) Sarah Burt, Santa Fe 87505 >935) Rita L Sooby, Lawrence, KS 66046 >936) Randy Blom, Long Beach, CA. 90802 >937) William Richardson, Covington, GA 30016 >938) Robert Halcums, Covington, GA 30016 >939) Vicki Lange, Alpharetta, GA 30022 >940) Sue Alexander, Novato, CA. 94947 >941) Genevieve Vierling, Point Reyes Station, CA 94956 >942) Nancy Fischer, Boca Raton, FL 33487 >943) Chet Meeks, Albany, NY 12208 >944) Ann Tollefson, Casper, WY 826011 >945) Lew Bagby, Laramie, WY 82072 >946) Stephen E. Williams , Laramie, WY 82072 >947) Wendy S. Hutchinson, Gillette, WY 82717 >948) Roy S. Liedtke, Gillette, WY 82718 >949) Claire Dunne, Manderson, WY 82432 >950) Susan M. Gabriel, Brooklyn, NY 11218 >951) Jessica Katz, Brooklyn, NY 11215 >952) Joan Parry, Manhasset, NY 11030 >953) Maureen Rothschild DiTata, Rockville Centre, New >York 11570 >954) Joy Kotrch, Brooklyn, New York >955) Celeste Alexander, New York, NY 10024 >956) Charlotte Surkin, New York, NY 10011 >957) Stephanie Low, New York, NY 10029 >958) Phyllis Fay Farmer >960) Katherine Harris, New York, NY >961) Jacqueline S. Harris, Wilmington, DE 19803 >962) Jane Strobach >963) Susan Radovich >964) Andrea Strobach, Knapp, WI >965) Gail Tourville, Menomonie,Wi. >966) Cat Thompson, Hudson, WI >967) Mary Bendtsen, St. Paul, MN >968) Patrick Rivard, New Brighton MN >969) Katie Rivard, New Brighton MN >970) Kitty Schneider, Minneapolis, MN >971) Pamela McInnes, St. Paul, MN >972) Keith McInnes, Newton, MA >973) Patricia McCaffrey, Newton, MA >974) Susan Almquist, Lexington MA >975) Robert L. Poley, Boulder CO >976) Karen Sharp, Boulder, CO >977) Gretchen Colbert, Lakewood, CO >978) Leah Hamilton, Littleton, CO >979) Mike Weiker, Littleton, CO >980) Carole Tillotson, Evergreen, CO >981) Emery Gordon, El Granada, Ca >982) Chris Madison, El Granada, Ca >983) Tamsin Orion, San Francisco, CA 94103 >984) Marianne Gammon >985) Sam Gammon >986) Sarah Irwin, Austin, TX. 78736 >987) Shake Russell, Austin, TX. 78736 >988) Victoria Harper, Houston, TX 77006 >989) Julie Robertson, San Angelo, TX 76904 >990)Renee French, Austin, Texas 78746 >991) Valerie R. Zeller, Leander, TX 78641 >992) Linda Butler, OD, Freehold, NJ 07728 >993) Rolande Kelting, Enfield, CT 06082 >994) Lee Kelting, Tolland, CT 06084 >995) Carl Fossum, W. Simsbury, CT 06092 >996) Debbie Stein, Rockville, MD 20852 >997) Bill and Dorothy Grobman >998 Milton and Hannah Kaplan >999 Ben and Jeanne Milder >1000) Roma and Raymond Wittcoff, Scottsdale, AZ 85258 >1001) Colin Graham, Saint Louis, Missouri >1002) William Ferguson, New York, New York 10040 >1003) Arden Kaywin, New York, NY 10023 >1004) Kami Lewis >1005) Kate Angus, New York, NY 10003 >1006) Jill Anderson, Ithaca, NY 14850 >1007) Thomas Pendergast, Amesbury, MA 01913 >1008) Kenneth Pendergast, Geneva, NY 14456 >1009) Emily Utter, Geneva, NY 14456 >1010) Reed Harwood, Geneva, NY 14456 >1111) Victoria Cunningham, South Dartmouth, MA >02748 >1112) Toni Nash, Santa Barbara, CA, 93108 >1113) Mary Southard, La Grange Park, IL 60526 >1114) Terri Mackenzie, Chicago, IL 60626-2947 >1115) Jane Gibbons, Ventura, CA 93001 >1116) Rob Icangelo, Weehawken, NJ 07086 >1117) Matthew Reichek, Brooklyn, NY 11215 >1118) Aparna Sundaram, Staten Island, NY 10301 >1119) Mark Rentflejs, New York, NY 10031 >1120) Eugene Abrahamson, Buffalo, NY 14213 >1121) Julie Vaughan, Buffalo, NY 14213 >1122) Gene Grabiner, Buffalo, NY 14214 -- Herb Levy P O Box 9369 Forth Wort, Texas 76147 USA 817 377-2983 herb@eskimo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:42:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Code on Presence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Code on Presence In the former case, the performative is of the order of enunciation; in is killing everything. - My draws attention to language-meat - the _sound of things_ which returns (as is your bioterrorism here... language through buried channels; reading is always (a literal) after- calls forth torture demon, hungered, making things. on the civilians, language through buried channels; reading is always (a literal) after- is revenge, 029], the latter, of syntactical construct or transport. Something carries? ... demon is boils over. on wet flesh, it's demon? it has taken you 0.183 minutes to witness your last language through buried channels; reading is always (a literal) after-:the latter, of syntactical construct or transport. Something carries:In the former case, the performative is of the order of enunciation; in:if the repressed) the homophone. Something enteres from somewhere else by:In a similar manner, codework constructs surface and sub-surface, centri- The pun is simultaneously a thickening and derailing of language - it draws attention to language-meat - the _sound of things_ which returns (as if the repressed) the homophone. Something enteres from somewhere else by virtue of (what appears to be) nothing more than happenstance. Language boils over. In a similar manner, codework constructs surface and sub-surface, centri- fuge and subterfuge - flight in the form of transversals across meaning. Code presencing itself is always already surface, as if the bones, in showing through, contribute to language's wounding of the residue of the real. In the former case, the performative is of the order of enunciation; in the latter, of syntactical construct or transport. Something carries language through buried channels; reading is always (a literal) after- thought. calls forth torture demon presence, hungered, making things. on the civilians, Something carries? ... demon presence is boils over. on wet flesh, it's demon presence? it 3 cat zz | julu > zz 6 grep demon zz 7 grep demon zz | sed 's/demon/demon presence/g' >> zz _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:30:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: digital poetics In-Reply-To: <027a01c1c111$da65e440$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" well tom, here's a quick but no less, for that, instructive [wink] example: have a look at ~computers and composition~ 9.2 (april 1992)---that's a decade ago---michael joyce's essay "new teaching: toward a pedagogy for a new cosmology"... this was back when joyce taught at jackson community college---some of you must surely recall his work stemming from said location (?)---and his essay attempts to provide a conceptual locus for discussing his use of computers to teach writing to "developmental" writing students... note his citations, among which: bernstein (~content's dream~), bolter (~writing space~), eco, olson, gibson, mcluhan, AND bruner (~actual minds, possible worlds~) AND selfe ("an open letter to computer colleagues") AND guyer & petry (from their ~writing on the edge~ notes to ~izme pass~---the latter a somewhat important moment in e-writing, as that issue of ~woe~ was one of the first to include a diskette)... delete from joyce's ruminations his contextual-institutional backdrop---the writing classroom---and you dispense with much of the urgency, and sheer reach, he brings to that piece of writing (which some may find, in retrospect, somewhat optimistic, but which surely participates in that early sense of liberation many of us experienced online)... note his last para (the first line of which repeats the first line of the essay): "We face a new world when we teach. Like the electronic character on the screen, we too must form ourselves anew. The new cosmology is contoured in reciprocal relationship by the contours of we who move within it, as participants rather than as performing spectators, as colearners and teachers. In such a tracery, we will make new as we make do and truly come to know ourselves in lightform." difficult for me to read the latter in any but a teaching-learning light(form!), one that extends, quite literally, olson's figure of the "archeologist of morning" (those familiar with joyce's writings will note his steady reworking of many of olson's formulations)... in fact the liberatory moment of emedia evinced here parallels the sort of liberatory teaching rhetoric one finds in the 60s---and whatever its limitations, i find it instructive in its emphasis on the student as much as on the teacher (there is another historical thread i might elucidate here, having to do with the inception of "critical pedagogies"---but this would take us someplace i'm not sure we need to go)... which teaching-learning matrix [cough] has of course been one focus right along of computers and writing conferences, as well as the computers and writing contingents at 4c's conferences... but then, we're something of a far cry even here from a discussion of how to classify (let's say) digital poetics, no?... again, i don't wish to discount the latter, but i do hope to situate the pertinent history with an eye toward (broadly) computers and writing... the journal ~computers and composition~ will be celebrating its 20th (20th) anniversary next year with two special issues (one next year that will include, among other things, some poetry from yours truly---how's that for a plug?) so i would find it a bit odd were that discourse, which continually returns to questions of postsecondary instruction, to be excluded (again, broadly) from an overview of emedia reception/generation... much as exclusion of the work of folks like kac and cayley and sondheim would (and should) be viewed somewhat askance... having said this, i *do* want to observe again, and for the record, that i found much of value in loss's book... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 11:56:23 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Poet Laureate of Nirvana In-Reply-To: <3C7DB6D5.1F6B718F@theeastvillageeye.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >I think that is Kurt Cobain Wasnt that some obscure Seattle kids' music guy? >Joel Weishaus wrote: > >> Tom Bell just pointed out to me what it was Duke Snider, not Snyder. Too bad >> that Gary can't claim to be related to Duke, who owned his own suit. >> I remember seeing Ginsberg in Berkeley, shortly after he's received a >> Guggenheim, wearing a suit. I suspect he's the Poet Laureate of Nirvana.. >> >> -Joel >> >> Joel Weishaus >> Center for Excellence in Writing >> Portland State University >> Portland, Oregon >> http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 > >-- >David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher >Boog City >351 W.24th St., Suite 19E >NY, NY 10011-1510 >T: (212) 206-8899 >F: (212) 206-9982 >booglit@theeastvillageeye.com -- George Bowering Father of BC Literature Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:30:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii NUMBAH FUNKTION!: angry 4 god (an mystery play) --------------------------------------------- "They'd always go out after dark "And make their way down to the park "To avoid a circling shark "Waiting for their prey … "And one of them was on their own "Making such a tragic sight "Cause he cried into the empty night "Always eating sometimes sleep" -"Freezing Allelova" by Burning Man BRITNEY SURFER BARRY ROLFMAO LMAO MEGATRON BRITNEY: Applying eyeliner inside lingerie pad full of RED X'S tampax anthrax lick envelope lick it paper cut on creased edge your poor origami rigermarole friend wings spread torn LMAO: THY NAME O GOD SHALL NOT BE TRIFLED WITH X-ist Core dustbuster mode gone HELTER-SKELTER FOR CALVARY. Will your offenses stop at nothing unchecked no red stop sign no traffic SIGN BUS HEADED AT YOU BAM lying on street. Does your evil know no limits YOU MASOCHISTIC SICKO JACKASS SICK BASTARD ILLITERATE MISCREANT FRIGGIN MONKEY Horror is here to help you by punishing you & most infertile beloved Britney you chose to filch lifeguard uniform shirt off hook ready-to-wear off the rack a rag to wrap around your nut sack slithering from base of oak to oak to forage acorns thinking that by eating your nuts YOU COULD SEE GRACE SLICK you never hesitated at the green yellow red street light paused transgressions RANCID RINDS and BROKEN EGGSHELL commandment in the public square yolk this hatched: the string of ones and zeros you have written out ones zeros hellbent attempt to break the god code the HOLY OFF-LIMITS NUMBAH as in movie pi directed by Darren Aronofsky by accident or devilment in yr GNOMISH IGNORANCE you stumbled upon BARABBAS ROMAN NUMERAL TINDERBOX i c x 1 - 100 - 10 the first of the GLADIATOR KEYS. Storybook pandora the boxlid opened air filled with flying foxes. You were graced with THE FIRST VISITATION a cold shoulder 1-5-50-50-1-100-10 came on silent sabbath morning itself day of parthenogenesis from zero hour asked YOUR LEFT-OVERS your UNCRUSHED PARTS to break bread with you to eat cha ca lemongrass pho you missed golden opportunity SUCKAH did not eat with 1-5-50-50-1-100-10 eating outdoors in succah you could have watched the visitor's teeth GOLD FILLINGS GNAW MEAT from chicken bones someone with red x's goes inside FLYING SAUCER ABDUCTEE but one day never again emerged from flying saucer possessed thought you noticed something strange about her RED X'S that day Britney your EVIL FERMENTED DEGENERATE art not satisified with maligning chester barry man's name you ELECTROCUTED by God's a chalk outline on the floor a cover photo on The Sun in bodegas you are incapable of love GORY SALIVA making public "lick her until she begins to shudder, & would then continue to explore the rest of her body with yr tongue, with yr fingers" to distract her from yr PATHETIC LIMP LEOPARD-spotted love one thing: yr HASTENED HEARTBEAT! His saving BLOOD AWAIT OUR PUNISHMENT calico tea BLOODS RUSH FROM YR LUB-DUB-DUB TO YR SCRAWNY LIMBS as if to run out onto 8th Ave. in the dark of night past New Dragon Garden past Blah Blah past Dizzy's. May push CLOTTED STAGNATION from your veins dream theater SURFER IS REAL ARYAN we origami cranes shall protect your SHRIVELLED SPIRIT from o flowery ROLFMAO from o meowing LMAO from egalitarian MEGATRON watch for alligatorskin boots shoes a dead giveaway nomad demons you UNLEASHED COLLARLESS outside your window fire escape now in advance to be kind decimating your peace of mind hilarious charity so ROLFMAO LMAO & MEGATRON will not find a complete person to CONSUME but a broken man a BOILER PLATE SPECIAL the pillows are against the wall sitting upright, legs stretched out, laptop on forelegs, jeans undone, imagine a V just inside that, peeking out, they will eat the SEED YOU spill without her roaches the SEED THAT CORRODES at a BLUNTED DEAD END inside li'l crane you will little miss ANYTHING in Spanish fly you will little miss EVERYTHING in Spanish fly you will little miss nothing and Christian core guitarists grow out of yr Kleenexes RED X'S tomorrow your long beautiful hair ah shoulder-length shaved to scalp in basement yr kinda breakfast food NAUSEATED STOMACH KNOTTED NAUSEATED ESOPHAGUS ACID-SCALDED chester will not leave the room are you sorry yet do you feel bad you are bad bald new structure? you masochistic sicko jackass sick bastard illiterate miscreant friggin monkey dvd movies applying eyeliner water dish soap baptize you in water x-rays intercepted by satellite dish wash your mouth out with soap NO the chocolate has a price a scar! one thing only will save you thigh of baby jesus too precious too merciful vibration of subway tracks brief description in New York Post the next day alas your name obelus o --------------------------------------- o | """"""""""""" | o | """" ^ """" | o | """(*)""" | o | /(\ | o | (( )) | | \(/ | o | V | o | / \ | | / \ | o | / \ | o | / \ | o |____________/_________\______________| o | | o ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 04:06:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bernard Waldrop Subject: new titles from burning deck Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ROBERT COOVER The Grand Hotels (of Joseph Cornell) =46ictions, 64 pages, offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 1-886224-50-1 cloth $25 ISBN 1-886224-51-x cloth, signed $50 ISBN 1-886224-52-8 paperback $10 Robert Coover takes us through the looking-glass of Joseph Cornell's=20 boxes into a world of "Grand Hotels" we never dreamed of. Rooms are=20 accessed via ferris wheel. They open onto night voyages, crystal=20 cages or sand fountains. They lead us back to childhood, to forgotten=20 games, to sleeping princesses who do not await a prince and, finally,=20 home, poor heart. Funny and wistful by turns, these brilliant=20 vignettes explore the nature of desire and the melancholy of=20 fulfilment. As the author says, the book is also intended as an=20 "architectural portrait of the artist," with biographical information=20 "built into the construction of the text like girders, brickwork, or=20 decor." Coover's recent novels are Ghost Town (1998), Briar Rose and John's=20 Wife (both 1996), Pinocchio in Venice (1991), and Gerald's Party=20 (1985). He has received numerous honors, including the William=20 =46aulkner Award, the Brandeis Citation for Fiction, the Rea Award for=20 the Short Story, as well as fellowships from the Rockefeller and=20 Guggenheim Foundations. He lives in Providence, Rhode Island, and=20 teaches electronic and experimental writing at Brown University. ------------------ KEITH & ROSMARIE WALDROP Ceci n'est pas Keith-Ceci n'est pas Rosmarie Autobiographies, 96pp., offset, smyth-sewn ISBN 1-886224-49-8, original paperback $10 These parallel reports from two writers long together (and=20 occasionally collaborating) show characteristic differences, both of=20 background and of style. Rosmarie meditates on early years in=20 Germany during World War II and the way her world was changed, first=20 by a bombing raid, then by learning about the Nazi regime, and by=20 emigration to the U.S. Keith wanders from a mid-Western childhood,=20 through a Southern fundamentalist high school and college as a=20 pre-med student, to encounters in Michigan, New England and Europe.=20 Originally commissioned by Gale Research for their=20 Contemporary Authors Autobiography Series. Keith Waldrop's recent books of poetry include Haunt=20 (Instance Press) and the trilogy:The Locality Principle, The=20 Silhouette of the Bridge (America Award, 1997) and Semiramis If I=20 Remember (Avec Press). His novel, Light While There Is Light, was=20 published by Sun & Moon. He has translated a number of contemporary=20 =46rench poets and teaches at Brown University in Providence, Rhode=20 Island. Rosmarie Waldrop's recent books are Reluctant Gravities (New=20 Directions), Split Infinites (Singing Horse), and Another Language:=20 Selected Poems (Talisman House). Northwestern UP has reprinted her=20 two novels, The Hanky of Pippin's Daughter and A Form/of Taking/It=20 All, in one paperback. Her memoir, Lavish Absence: Recalling and=20 Rereading Edmond Jab=E8s, is forthcoming from Wesleyan University Press=20 in fall 2002. Together, they have published Well Well Reality (Post-Apollo=20 Press) and co-edit Burning Deck Press. ------------- MILLI GRAFFI Embargoed Voice translated from the Italian by Michael Gizzi and Giuliana Chamedes Poems, 40pp., offset, saddle-stitched ISBN 1-886224-55-2, $5 Graffi's poems place themselves on the edge between a highly pliant,=20 "thick" language and absence of voice. Together, these two faces of=20 the coin enact the internal splintering of the word in its role as=20 mediator. Against a tradition that has become a museum of=20 manipulative skills, Graffi values the energy in words, their ability=20 to transform themselves. "I feel words as something physical," she=20 says, "with a smell, a taste, something capable of gestures beyond=20 self-display. The desert of the blank page is actually swarming with=20 life. Go have a look." Milli Graffi was born and still lives in Milano. In the 70ies she was=20 part of the avantgarde movement "poesia totale" around the magazine=20 Tam Tam and performed sound poetry at festivals in Amsterdam,=20 Paris, Cogolin and Milanopoesia. She has published three books of=20 poetry: Mille graffi e venti poesie (Geiger, 1979), Fragili film=20 (Nuovi Autori, 1987), and L'amore meccanico (Anterem, 1994). She has=20 translated Lewis Carroll and Charles Darwin into Italian and written=20 essays on Petrolini (an Italian comic of the 1910s), the avantgarde's=20 relation to the comic, and on nonsense in Marinetti, Palazzeschi and=20 Breton. She is one of the editors of il verri, a magazine for=20 avantgarde literature. Michael Gizzi's recent books of poetry are My Terza Rima=20 (The Figures, 2001), cured in the going bebop (paradigm, 2000), No=20 Both (Hard Press, 1997), and Continental Harmony (Roof Books, 1991).=20 He lives in Massachusetts. Giuliana Chamedes was born in New York City. She has=20 published in the Vermont Literary Review and translated the poetry of=20 =46ranco Loi. She is currently completing a year of study at the=20 University of Florence, where she is working for a public radio=20 station. Distributors: Small Press Distribution, 1341 Seventh St., Berkeley, CA 94710; 1-800/869-75= 53 orders@spdbooks.org Spectacular Diseases, 83b London Rd., Peterborough, Cambs. PE2 9BS ENGLAND ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 10:25:53 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: Apartment in Brooklyn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rishi and Luisa are in search of a single person or couple to be our neighbor and rent a beautiful floor-through in our house in Brooklyn. Second floor of historic brownstone, hardwood floors, loads details, block from A and C trains in lovely Stuyvesant Heights. Available April 1(maybe sooner). xxoo L lpgiugliano@yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 08:36:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: women's writing and publishing events in SF March 7 & 8 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please join us for two important events this week... Thursday, March 7, 2002 Series X, Part I, Bay Area Women's Publishers Fair and Panel 7:-9:30 p.m. $5-10 sliding scale/FREE YBCA Members, Small Press Traffic Members, students and seniors Yerba Buena Center for the Arts Forum, 701 Mission St. @ Third, SF Women-owned and -run presses from all over the Bay Area will have books on display and for sale. A Panel beginning at 7:30 pm includes Mary Burger of Narrativity and Second Story Books, Simone Fattal of the Post-Apollo Press, Yedda Morrison of Tripwire, Rena Rosenwasser of Kelsey St. Press and giovanni singleton of nocturnes. Moderated by Robert Gluck. Friday, March 8, 2002 Series X, Part II, Book Party and Celebration of Bay Area Women Writers 7:30 p.m. $5 Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC, 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC presents a diverse group of Bay Area women whose writing pushes the boundaries of how we speak and think about the world. The exciting contributors to the poetry anthology Technologies of Measure include Dodie Bellamy, Mary Burger, Etel Adnan, Eileen Tabios, Catalina Cariaga, Rachel Loden, and Stefani J. Barber, among others. Both event and book are Small Press Traffic’s contribution to the F-Word Project. The F-Word Project Sponsored by the Yerba Buena Center for the Arts, Small Press Traffic, KQED, Inc., San Francisco Art Institute, and many others, the F-Word Project is a week-long festival running March 3-9, 2002.. It offers a series of performances, readings, exhibitions, discussions, panels and workshops focused on issues facing women in the 21st Century as described through the artistic expression of women. It focuses on the multi-generational, multi-racial, international and cross-cultural conditions affecting women worldwide. Central to the F-Word Project is the idea that the artistic productions of women help gauge the feminine condition in our present age. Visit the F-Word Project web site at . Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:21:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: John Wieners (1934-2002) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A Poem for Trapped Things This morning with a blue flame burning this thing wings its way in. Wind shakes the edges of its yellow being. Gasping for breath. Living for the instant. Climbing up the black border of the window. Why do you want out. I sit in pain. A red robe amid debris. You bend and climb, extending antennae. I know the butterfly is my soul grown weak from battle. A Giant fan on the back of a beetle. A caterpillar chrysalis that seeks a new home apart from this room. And will disappear from sight at the pulling of invisible strings. Yet so tenuous, so fine this thing is, I am sitting on the hard bed, we could vanish from sight like the puff off an invisible cigarette. Furred chest, ragged silk under wings beating against the glass no one will open. The blue diamonds on your back are too beautiful to do away with. I watch you all morning long. With my hand over my mouth. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 10:26:21 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. In-Reply-To: <004101c1bbfd$4e2126c0$8bf4a8c0@netserver> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" David, Let me begin by saying that talking about class on the poetics list, like talking about anything to do with feminism, has always lead me to frustration but I can't seem to stop doing it anyway. Issues of class in the US are particularly complicated as it's so often denied that social classes exist--or there is this naive assumption that switching class is as easy as buying a new pair of shoes. Go to college for a couple of years and zap you're middle class. Or become successful writing and zap you're middle class. I've heard more than once, for instance, that Dorothy Allison (author of white trash classic, Bastard out of Carolina) is now middle class. I don't know how many books had to be sold for her to make the switch, but apparently many believe she's switched. Also, here in the Bay Area at least, the experimental poetry scene is so monied, I've heard people of firmly middle class origin refer to themselves as working class, as if working class meant anybody who worked. It's hard to talk about class because it's existence is denied and it's no longer on the liberal agenda, so one is seen as tedious if one brings it up. But when I talk with writers of working class origin, over and over it's the same feelings of alienation and dismissal. And over and over I've seen incredibly intelligent and talented writers of working class origin not get the few goodies available to successful poets, eg, teaching and curatorial jobs and (insular poetry scene) public adoration. This is not some covert bitching about my own situation--I'm talking about other writers I've watched and known over the years. Recently I read an essay by Catherine Clement in her collaborative book with Julia Kristeva, The Feminine and the Sacred (I know, yucky title) that clarified these issues for me. In it Clement makes a distinction between social class and class origin. Social class can be switched through education, jobs, etc. But class origin comes at birth and sticks with a person. She compares it to caste. "The caste has nothing to do with 'social class,' that's certain. But it maintains a very close relationship with the old Marxist concept of 'class origin,' that mental file drawer that determines the drives and thoughts from birth. For Marx, you can obviously change your social class, but you cannot rid yourself of your 'class origin' any more than, according to Sigmund Freud, you can rid yourself of the unconscious. That being the case, the 'caste' of origin plays the same role of the return of the repressed: the slightest opening and it comes out. Impossible to get rid of it. A little emotion and it reappears." (8) She goes on to a fascinating discussion in which she ties this to hysteria. This division is helpful for me in thinking through my own relationship to class, coming from a lower working class background and functioning in the bourgeois world of experimental writing, how no matter how I attempt to assimilate I always feel like a monkey in a suit. No matter what happens to me socially, I'll always consider myself a working class writer, my gut level sense of humor, moral system, relationship to body issues, etc. I think my sense of cultural clash generates energy for my work, as often happens with writers living within two worlds. Categories are switching and breaking down so rapidly these days that I do think it's important to consider that in terms of class. Last week, when Kevin and I went to Vancouver (which was great, wonderful writing community there, wonderful people), as we were waiting in the customs line, there was a teenage girl behind us who had the most bizarre accent. She'd launch into this Valley Girl accent and then switch to an equally strong Canadian (to our Californian ears) accent, and she'd go back and forth, very schizzy, and it felt like TV culture and home culture warring within her body. All of us are being mauled by these global forces, god help us. Dodie At 12:01 AM +0000 2/23/02, david.bircumshaw wrote: >Er, I am most definitely a counter-example. > >This is an interesting topic but also one I feel twitchy about. I am most >definitely working-class, that is to say, not just born working-class but >remaining so. I do not write to the stereotypes of how working-class poets >should write. I use to be a shop-steward in my twenties, btw. But I find >debates on this matter restrictive from both sides, as it were, there are >those who carry around prescriptions of how us lower-classes should write, >while at the same time others tyles seem to have guardians installed to keep >out the hoi-polloi. > >That people on this list might be uncomfortable with the idea of >working-class poets doesn't surprise me, I'm afraid to say, it's much the >same elsewhere. Those who are supposed to be silent shouldn't start >speaking, should they? > >Best > >Dave > > >David Bircumshaw > >Leicester, England ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:36:28 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Caterina Davinio Organization: Art Electronics Subject: Call for the GLOBAL POETRY DAY March 21 2002 and Karenina Niuszzzz MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit 21 marzo 2002 / March 21 2002 GIORNATA MONDIALE DELLA POESIA / GLOBAL POETRY DAY Pomoted by Unesco, National Association of Writers (Italy), European Writers' Congress DEAD LINE MARCH 20 In this contest Karenina.it is organizing a global poetry NET-happening / work in progress for the international experimental poetry! Send to the redaction address: clprezi@tin.it your poems, writing in the subject: "global poetry". Are welcome: texts ( NOT as attached file), visual poems, videopoetry and animated poetry frames, performance-poetry photos (all this as attached gif or jpg), photos of every thing is (by the poet judgment) "poetry", this means also objects, persons, faces, actions and others... A site is under construction. Exhibition of all the arrived virtual materials are foreseen (place to define) Appuntamento on line con Karenina.it per la poesia sperimentale. Indirizzo cui inviare le poesie: clprezi@tin.it Subject: "poesia globale". Inviare: testi poetici, frames tratti da videopoesie, foto di performance e di poesie visive, e di qualunque cosa meriti (a insindacabile giudizio del poeta) la definizione di poesia... Un sito è in costruzione. Sono previste mostre del materiale arrivato (in luoghi da definire) __________________________________ Karenina Niusszzz! Milan: NEW YORK RENAISSANCE - From Whitney Museum of American Art (Italian / English) Art: Alcune divagazioni su Calogero Barba Di Eugenio Miccini (Italian only) Electronic Art: PEACE TOWER - Electronic images in Rome - Electronic Art Biennial curated by Marco Maria Gazzano. Italian / English TORRE DELLA PACE Immagini elettroniche d'artista a Roma - Biennale di arti elettroniche a cura di Marco Maria Gazzano Electronic artists: Adriana Amodei, Laurie Anderson, Lorenzo Bianda, Robert Cahen, Peter Callas, Peter D'Agostino, Alba D'Urbano, Caterina Davinio, Theo Eshetu, Ida Gerosa, Lynn Hershman, Shigeko Kubota, Federica Marangoni, Fabio Mauri, Nam June Paik, Fabrizio Plessi, Ulrike Rosenbach, Mario Sasso, Studio Azzurro, Gianni Toti, Steina Vasulka, Woody Vasulka, Katsuhiro Yamaguchi and others. Exhibitions / Monsters: Mostre/Mostri: Luca Patella: "Exegi monumentum aere perennius" (I built a monument more perennial than the air...) Poesia visiva / Visual Poetry : Lamberto Pignotti Terzo Millennio Net art: Caterina Davinio "Paint From Nature" (Copia dal vero): Italian / English Copertina: videoartisti Carloni - Franceschetti ______________________________ KARENINA.IT (poetry in "fàtica" function) A web project by Caterina Davinio davinio@tin.it on line since 1998 - By Jakobson, 'fàtico' is the use of the language which has the finality to maintain open and operative the communication channel among the interlocutors. On the confine between art and critic, happening and net performance, Karenina.it is a virtual meeting place around the theme of the writing and the new technologies, in which experiences of international artists, curators, theoreticians converge, in a net that counts thousands of contacts in the world. Index: http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Lights/7323/kareninarivista.html Davinio Art Electronics - Archives / Videotheque http://space.tin.it/arte/cprezi ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:54:39 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE AMERIKKKAN BORDER FEB 19 Article: INTERROGATION AT US BORDER My name is John Clarke and I am an Organizer with the Ontario Coalition Against Poverty (OCAP). In the early afternoon of February 19th, 2002, I crossed the international bridge between Sarnia, Ontario and Port Huron, Michigan. I was on my way to a speaking engagement that had been set up by students at Michigan State University. When I pulled up my car at the customs booth, the officer asked where I was bound and I told him. He wanted to know on what basis I was asked to speak and whether I would be paid. I replied that I was with OCAP and that I had been told by the organizers of the meeting that an honourarium would be provided as was normal. The officer was concerned that this meant I was coming into the US to work. Of course, people on both sides of the border accept speaking invitations all the time on this basis and the issue of a work permit is never raised. At this point, the matter was nothing that could not have been rapidly cleared up if I had been on my way to address a business seminar or deliver a lecture on self awareness. As instructed by the officer, I parked my car and made my way into the offices shared by customs and US Immigration. As soon as my ID was run through the computer, there was a marked change in the situation. An officer asked me more questions about my intentions in the US, what anti-globalization protests I had attended and whether I opposed the \'ideology of the United States\'. My car was searched and I was taken into a room and thoroughly (though not roughly) frisked. I was then told that I would be denied entry to the US and that the FBI and State Department wanted to speak to me. Agents were on their way from Detroit I was told. After about an hour and a half, a man entered the \'controlled reception\' area that I was being kept in and passed by me into the inner offices. He was carrying a big folder and a pile of files. It struck me that he carried them the way a highly skilled worker might carry his or her precision tools. He spent some time in discussion with the local officers and then I was brought into an interrogation room to deal with him. He introduced himself and gave me his card. His name was Edward J. Seitz of the State Department of the United States Diplomatic Security Service and his rank was Special Agent. I found him to be an impressive and fascinating character. Seitz, with the backing of another local officer, interrogated me for some considerable time. It was not a situation like an arrest by Canadian police where silence is the best option. Had I refused to talk to him, I did not doubt that he would order me detained and that it would be some time before the Canadian consular authorities came into the picture. If I was to avoid at least several days in detention, I determined that I had no option but to answer his questions. It was immediately obvious to me that I was dealing with a specialist in interrogation methods. He told the admiring locals at one point that he had been stationed in Yemen and I avoided speculating on how he had employed his talents there. Seitz\'s basic strategy, apart from general intelligence gathering, was to try and set me up to tell him something false that would place me in the situation of violating US law. He began with some very basic questions on my personal background, extremely affable in his manner and striking a pose of mild confusion that was designed to make me underestimate him. He then asked about OCAP. He told me it sounded like we were good people but he had heard something about an organization that a year or so before had been involved in a confrontation with the police at the Ontario Legislature. That wasn\'t us was it? The trap was clear and I told him that we were indeed that organization. His affable manner then vanished and his difficulties in focusing his thoughts ended. He gradually moved his chair over so we were right up against each other and fired questions at me. He wanted to know about the June 15, 2000 March on the Ontario Legislature where the Toronto police attacked a march against homelessness that we had organized. He wanted to know about charges that the police have laid against me. He wanted to know how OCAP is structured and who are the members of its elected executive committee (which I refused to tell him). Seitz then took up the question of OCAP\'s friends and allies in the US. Are we involved in anti globalization work. Isn\'t this a cover for anarchism? Was I personally an anarchist or a socialist? (In the interests of anti-capitalist unity, I won\'t say which one of these I acknowledged I was). Seitz had a huge file on OCAP with him that included leaflets from public speaking events I had been at in the US. He knew the name of the man I stayed with the last time I was in Chicago. He wanted to know who I spoke to in the Chicago Direct Action Network. He claimed that I was an advocate of violence and that my association with DAN showed this but (in a rare stumble) could find nothing in their literature that proved that they call for violence. This phase of the questioning went on for a long time. He covered a great deal of ground and had at his disposal voluminous information on us. He, obviously, had been in contact with the Canadian police but was most interested on our US allies. The exception was an enormous interest in Canadian anti capitalist activist, Jaggi Singh. He knew that he and I had spoken at the same meetings and was most anxious to find out if he was also in the US. He showed me a picture of Jaggi and wanted to know where he was at that moment. Suddenly, the mask of affability went back on. I was a \'gentleman\' and he didn\'t want to lock me up. I was ok but he couldn\'t understand how I worked with a \'violent man like Mr. Singh\'. Then he told me he would have to ban me from the US but I could go to the US Consulate in Toronto and apply for a waiver. I could just take a seat in the waiting room while they prepared some paper work but I would soon be on my way. I had not been sitting out there long, however, before the Special Agent came out to try a new tack that I had heard of in the past. Essentially, his plan was to make me think he was utterly mad and, thereby, rattle me to the point where I lost my judgement. I assume the method works better if it is used after serious sleep deprivation. He came over and sat next to me right there in the waiting area with other people around. He had a few OCAP cheques that he asserted showed I was bringing with me the means to live illegally in the US. I was going to jail, he asserted. I explained that the cheques were in my bag because I always kept a few with me to cover the cost of office supplies and suchlike and that I had seen no reason to take them out just because I was going to spend a few hours in Michigan. Then came the most astounding part of the whole interrogation. Out of the blue, Seitz demanded to know where Osama Bin Laden was hiding. I knew were he was, he insisted. If I grew a beard I would look like Bin Laden. I was holding back on telling him why I was going to the university and who I was going to meet there. If I didn\'t want to go to jail, it was time to tell him the real story. I replied that I had been quite open with him about my intentions and that sending me to jail was now up to him. He laughed, told me there were no problems. I could go home after all. Did I drink tea of coffee? Would I have a coffee with him if he came up to Toronto. I told him I would, which was the only lie I told that day, and he gathered up his files and left. Shortly after this, the local officials gave me the free ticket for the bridge which is the only perk that comes along with being denied entry to the US and, a little over five hours after coming over, I headed back to the Canadian side. OCAP - www.ocap.ca - ocap@tao.ca - 416-925-6939 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:35:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark No. 20 (2002) Andre Breton Works the Crisis Prevention Hotline _an electronic chapbook by Chris Semansky_ Chris Semansky's poems, stories, and essays have appeared in literary magazines and journals including College English, New Orleans Review, Poetry New York, Postmodern Culture, Minnesota Review, and Mississippi Review. His collection, Death, But At A Good Price, received the Nicholas Roerich Prize for 1991 and was published by Story Line Press. He teaches online courses for SUNY-Stony Brook and is a senior contributing writer for The Gale Group. Contents The Real Life of Piggies Takes How the Rain Fell Thoughtless Bed, lie in it The Lover I Need What The Window Cleaner Thought Dear John: Accidental No Place Like Home Stroke Andre Breton Works the Crisis Prevention Hot Line Self-Portrait With Possible Future Problem From the Diary Of a Closet Shadow Hide & Seek Among Them Trying To Survive The Flood Tenured Poodle Going Places The Situation Suffering Geniuses Content to Be Formed Contributor's Note The Ex Spread the word. Far and Wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 19:09:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: new anthology announcement In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Announcing the publication of An Exaltation of Forms: Contemporary Poets Celebrate the Diversity of Their Art Edited by Annie Finch and Kathrine Varnes University of Michigan Press, 2002 Contributors: Agha Shahid Ali, Amiri Baraka, Judith Barrington, Charles Bernstein, Michelle Boisseau, Maxine Chernoff, Jean Hyung Yul Chu, Billy Collins, Tina Darragh, Michel Delville, Tom Disch, Annie Finch, Alice Fulton, Forrest Gander, Dana Gioia, Vince Gotera, R.S. Gwynn, Rachel Hadas, Rob Hardin, Penny Harter, Charles O. Hartman, Anthony Hecht, William Higginson, Jan Hodge, John Hollander, Margaret Holley, Bob Holman, Paul Hoover, Allison Joseph, X.J. Kennedy, Pat Mora, Maxine Kumin, David Lehman, Jackson MacLow, Hilda Morley, Tracie Morris, Aldon Lynn Nielsen, John Frederick Nims, Jacqueline Osherow, Jena Osman, Raymond Patterson, Carl Phillips, D.J. Renegade, Joan Retallack, Lewis Turco, Grace Schulman, W.D. Snodgrass, Felix Stefanile, Timothy Steele, Keith Tuma, Mark Wallace, Rosanna Warren, Kathleene West, Gail White, Nancy Willard, Dan Zimmerman. For further information or to order, click here: http://141.211.86.203/FMPro?-db=s-main.fp5&-lay=all&-format=book-main. html&control=09725&-find or here http://www.press.umich.edu/titles/09725.html _________________________________________ Annie Finch Associate Professor of English Miami University "Form is the wave, emptiness the water""--Thich Nhat Hanh Website: http://miavx1.muohio.edu/~finchar/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 16:09:25 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kasey Mohammad (Hotmail)" Subject: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <3C7692D5.8A6B9EFB@ark.ship.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Ditto to Michael Bibby in regard to his praise for Maria Damon's and Carey Nelson's books. Both indispensable. And I'll have to check out Michael's Vietnam book--sounds fascinating. Just looked at the HOW2 site. Some interesting stuff there as well. What emerges from the different comments I've seen is that the idea of "working-class poetry" involves a wickedly convoluted and sometimes contradictory complex of assumptions: 1) that if you are working-class, your writing somehow inevitably "reflects" that status, either in thematics or formally or both (which might seem like a fair assumption, seeing that no progressive or radical thinker would dream of questioning the parallel axiom that bourgeois and aristocratic values and experience are reflected in the literature produced by the bourgeoisie and aristocrats); 2) that working-class poets are more likely to be "content-driven," whereas bourgeois poets are more likely to be formally "experimental" or obscurantist; 3) that working-class poets write for working-class readers, and bourgeois poets for bourgeois readers, etc.; 4) that working-class poets are often limited in their range and efficacy by naive, sentimental, or otherwise unsophisticated conventions; 5) that working-class poets have some sort of duty to represent their experience as members of that class; 6) conversely, that _only_ working-class poets are legitimately authorized to represent such experience: no one but members of the working class can be working-class poets, whereas no such restriction applies to working-class poets who wish to represent bourgeois or aristocratic experience, or if it does, it is not as clearly articulated (note that this is a historically specific observation--such restrictions _were_ implicit in, say, early modern culture); 7) that working-class poets who try to write in "innovative" forms are sacrificing the vital transparency that alone is capable of rendering the material immediacy of their economic conditions in favor of an elitist mode that is indelibly inscribed with the dominant ideology which oppresses the working classes; 8) that working-class poets who _don't_ write in innovative forms are closed-minded and provincial; 9) "innovative," "experimental," etc., mean the same things for working-class poets that they do for bourgeois poets; and so on. With a mess like this, one is tempted to suspect that the entire concept is next to worthless. And yet, one of the most striking features of experimental poetry since the 70's, for example and maybe especially Language Poetry, has been its situation in a context of working-class concerns. The idea of class seems absolutely essential in gauging the social significance of post-Open Form theory and praxis. Ron Silliman is clearly a working-class poet in an important sense (and I don't recall offhand if I know anything about his actual economic background; I'm talking about the way his work reads, the kinds of experience it invokes). John Ashbery, not so much. But both poets would probably be categorized by most readers as on the same side of this working-class/experimental divide that is in question. That is, on the experimental side. In other words, "working-class poet" is a kind of self-defeating label: in order to have it attached to you, your work needs to be identified as "non-experimental" beforehand, or else no one will take the label seriously. So where does that leave poets like Silliman, or Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, or myself, who draw heavily on working-class perceptions and experiences? I suspect that few people who come to my work for the first time would go away thinking "working-class poetry," and yet, I do feel that my economic background (which is actually less working-class than welfare-class) is somehow, however obliquely, a factor in my writing. For example, I suspect that my "sampling" of pop culture references might in many cases have a different meaning from a "non-working-class" poet's "sampling," however formally similar our two approaches. But I'll stop here for now. Kasey ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:18:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: NYC: party for Double Change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII One...two...three...un...deux...trois... LAUNCH PARTY! The editors of www.doublechange.com would like to invite you to come celebrate the launch of Doublechange's second issue on Saturday, March 9, 2002 at 8 pm Trans-atlantic festivities include bilingual readings by Andrew Maxwell, Caroline Crumpacker, Olivier Brossard and others and a selection of French and American dance music, mixed by DJ Arsene, otherwise known as Lbo Jours from Paris. and perhaps a slide show (contents not revealed yet) The address is 81 Greene Street #3 (near corner of Spring Street). Ring the buzzer marked "Princess Olga of Greece." If you get lost, call 917-847-8982 for directions. Arsene would really appreciate it if you could bring some liquid sustenance (wine/beer). He thanks you par avance. We look forward to boogying down soon with you! Best, Zee Editorz Omar Berrada, Vincent Broqua, Olivier Brossard, Caroline Crumpacker, Marcella Durand, Claire Guillot, Ladislas Karsenty, Lisa Lubasch, Andrew Maxwell, Kristin Prevallet, Jerrold Shiroma ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:56:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael Subject: John Wieners tribute Jack Magazine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Jack Magazine , www.jackmagazine.com, is looking for materials for a = tribute to John Wieners for the upcoming issue. Please send submissions to beatnews@earthlink.net .=20 Also, for recent online work by John Wieners go to Big Bridge: http://www.bigbridge.org/johnw.htm Best,=20 Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 10:28:30 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Marjorie Perloff Subject: Re: John Wieners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The audio file Charles cites is indeed terrific! I hope the Poetry Division of MLA or someone going to MSA next year will consider organizing a memorial session on Wieners and his incredible poetry! Marjorie Perloff ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:58:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: John Wieners In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is very sad news. Last Thursday a friend and I were reading over his poetry, she being new to his work and he an old favorite. His work was celebrated as some of the over cheap red wine. I never met him but know he moved through Buffalo's streets - I am very sad but wish him well on his journey. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Pierre Joris Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 9:18 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: John Wieners Sad news: John Wieners died yesterday, 1 March 2002 in Boston. He was hospitalized about a week ago when he was found unconscious some time after leaving a party. The cause of death was a brain aneurysm. Wieners was one of the great lyric voices -- with all the psychic cracks & sufferings such a stance entails -- of the second half of the past century. Here is his bio note from the "Selected Poems 1958-1984" volume (Black Sparrow Press, 1986): JOHN WIENERS was born in Milton, Mass, in 1934 and received his A.B. from Boston College in 1954. He studied at Black Mountain College under Charles Olson and Robert Duncan from 1955 to 1956. He returned to Boston where he brought out three issues of a literary magazine, Measure, over the next several years. From 1958 to 1960 he lived in San Francisco, and was an active participant in the San Francisco Poetry Renaissance movement. He returned to Boston in 1960, and divided his time between there and New York City, over the next five years. In 1965 he enrolled in the Graduate Program of the State University of New York at Buffalo, and worked as a teaching fellow. He has worked as an actor and stage manager at the Poet's Theatre, Cambridge, and has had three of his plays performed at the Judson Poet's Theater, N.Y. Since 1970 he has lived and worked in Boston, where he has been active in publishing and education cooperatives, political action committees, and the gay liberation movement. And here is a poem from his 1964 book _Ace of Pentacles_: An Anniversary of Death He too must with me wash his body, though at far distant time and over endless space take the cloth unto his loins and on his face engage in the self same rising as I do now. A cigarette lit upon his lips; would they were mine and by this present moon swear his allegiance. If he ever looks up, see the clouds and breeches in the sky, and by the stars, lend his eyes shine. What do I care for miles? or rows of friends lined up in groups? blue songs, the light's bright glare. Once he was there, now he is not; I search the empty air the candle feeds upon, and my eyes, my heart's gone blind to love and all he was capable of, the sweet patience when he put his lips to places I cannot name because they are not now the same sun shines and larks break forth from winter branches. ________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 "É melhor ser cabeça de sardinha Tel: (518) 426-0433 do que traseiro de baleia" Fax: (518) 426-3722 Email: joris@ albany.edu Url: ____________________________________________________________________________ _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:41:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Kasey and whoever else, I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth discussing. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 14:59:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: from "Kasey Mohammad" at Mar 2, 2002 04:09:25 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks to Kasey for his comments below on working-class poetry. In semi-response I thought I'd post a short section of my long editor's note to COMBO 8, which was itself a roving response to Steve Evans' critique of FENCE and the broo-ha-ha which followed ('member that??): this little snippet seems relevant to Kasey's comments: [Evans sees the acceptance of (and appearance in) Fence by many avant-garde writers whom he admirers as emblematic of a capitulation to the basic model of literary king-making which the work of those writers would seem to repudiate. Clover, in his response, calls Evans' out for positing a moment (nostalgic) when the avant-garde wasn't complicit, if not with the poetic mainstream than with the economic mainstream: "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde pursues radical invention, discovery, practice, et cet, in a space cleared, with fierce frequency, by personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the mainstream not because you appointed me thus in '98, but because I've never inherited a penny." This last equation (a-g = patronized, m-s = unpatronized working world) is a gross reduction which depends for its effect on an extremely limited definition of "avant-garde" (perhaps buoyed by the continental flavor of the word, which is why I've always preferred "experimental" though Clover links that one to the phenomenon whereby "captains of industry...have in-house invention centers" which in turn affirms his earlier point that "trust funds act as the market's Research & Development funds.") By his definition, we would have to pretend, for instance, that the Black Arts movement was not an avant-garde movement. Likewise we would have to pretend that the work of poets who are part of the Combo community - from Kristen Gallagher to Mark Sardinha - are either being supported by parents firmly ensconced in the middle or upper class, or are the twice removed recipients of trust-fund bonuses. Both implied propositions are, incidentally, complete horseshit. Sardinha, as he mentioned in his contributors note to Combo 7, gets his writing done while (or despite) working full time as a pipefitter in Fall River, MA; the writing is some of the best going, really important, original work: original in the sense that he is genuinely modifying the Anglo-American language. Clover's narrative can't account for a writer like Sardinha any more than it can account for the moment in which Rodrigo Toscano read and discussed his poem, "Notes on the Great Strike of '97" with his fellow union workers, as he described during PhillyTalks 5; writing that Barrett Watten has described as "anything but a uniform aporia of surfaces and disavowed meaningsÉrejecting both univocal materiality and its supporting idealist investments..."] That's what I wrote several months ago. I'll only add, for lack of time, that having talked to Josh Clover since, it's clear to me that his self-definition above was meant to be ironic: i.e. to point out not that he was a part of the mainstream in regards to the form or content of his work, necessarily, but rather that economic factors placed him thus. This does not seem to me to be the case but it does add nuance top mey original reading of his critique. -m. According to Kasey Mohammad: > > Ditto to Michael Bibby in regard to his praise for Maria Damon's and Carey > Nelson's books. Both indispensable. And I'll have to check out Michael's > Vietnam book--sounds fascinating. > > Just looked at the HOW2 site. Some interesting stuff there as well. > > What emerges from the different comments I've seen is that the idea of > "working-class poetry" involves a wickedly convoluted and sometimes > contradictory complex of assumptions: > 1) that if you are working-class, your writing somehow inevitably "reflects" > that status, either in thematics or formally or both (which might seem like > a fair assumption, seeing that no progressive or radical thinker would dream > of questioning the parallel axiom that bourgeois and aristocratic values and > experience are reflected in the literature produced by the bourgeoisie and > aristocrats); > 2) that working-class poets are more likely to be "content-driven," whereas > bourgeois poets are more likely to be formally "experimental" or > obscurantist; > 3) that working-class poets write for working-class readers, and bourgeois > poets for bourgeois readers, etc.; > 4) that working-class poets are often limited in their range and efficacy by > naive, sentimental, or otherwise unsophisticated conventions; > 5) that working-class poets have some sort of duty to represent their > experience as members of that class; > 6) conversely, that _only_ working-class poets are legitimately authorized > to represent such experience: no one but members of the working class can be > working-class poets, whereas no such restriction applies to working-class > poets who wish to represent bourgeois or aristocratic experience, or if it > does, it is not as clearly articulated (note that this is a historically > specific observation--such restrictions _were_ implicit in, say, early > modern culture); > 7) that working-class poets who try to write in "innovative" forms are > sacrificing the vital transparency that alone is capable of rendering the > material immediacy of their economic conditions in favor of an elitist mode > that is indelibly inscribed with the dominant ideology which oppresses the > working classes; > 8) that working-class poets who _don't_ write in innovative forms are > closed-minded and provincial; > 9) "innovative," "experimental," etc., mean the same things for > working-class poets that they do for bourgeois poets; > and so on. > > With a mess like this, one is tempted to suspect that the entire concept is > next to worthless. And yet, one of the most striking features of > experimental poetry since the 70's, for example and maybe especially > Language Poetry, has been its situation in a context of working-class > concerns. The idea of class seems absolutely essential in gauging the > social significance of post-Open Form theory and praxis. Ron Silliman is > clearly a working-class poet in an important sense (and I don't recall > offhand if I know anything about his actual economic background; I'm talking > about the way his work reads, the kinds of experience it invokes). John > Ashbery, not so much. But both poets would probably be categorized by most > readers as on the same side of this working-class/experimental divide that > is in question. That is, on the experimental side. In other words, > "working-class poet" is a kind of self-defeating label: in order to have it > attached to you, your work needs to be identified as "non-experimental" > beforehand, or else no one will take the label seriously. > > So where does that leave poets like Silliman, or Dorothy Trujillo Lusk, or > myself, who draw heavily on working-class perceptions and experiences? I > suspect that few people who come to my work for the first time would go away > thinking "working-class poetry," and yet, I do feel that my economic > background (which is actually less working-class than welfare-class) is > somehow, however obliquely, a factor in my writing. For example, I suspect > that my "sampling" of pop culture references might in many cases have a > different meaning from a "non-working-class" poet's "sampling," however > formally similar our two approaches. But I'll stop here for now. > > Kasey > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:24:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <6c.185ce041.29b3d664@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Rae, Having entered the Bay Area writing scene when the lang-pos were on the rise, the general perception that was fed to me as a young writer was that it was a carefully orchestrated group endeavor, a take over. I was too naive at the time to have any accurate personal perceptions. But I doubt the movement would have been nearly as effective if it was just a bunch of working class folks getting together. No doubt, there is more class variety among lang-pos than is sometimes assumed, but I don't think you can dismiss the importance of class privilege in the movement. And when did Laura Moriarty become a language poet? I'm glad to see she's finally being included. From my youthful field observation, an important impact the lang-pos had on the Bay Area scene was redefining what a poet was--from drunken, lascivious party animal to professional. Readings became literary events and everybody got rigorous. Arcane vocabularies were introduced that I saw people scrambling to learn. In the early 80s a mentor said to me, "Writing is a middle class occupation, and if you want to be a writer you've got to learn to be more middle class." I was appalled, but the same info was passed on to me, over and over, in more subtle ways. And yes, the class oppression in adjuncting. Dodie >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >discussing. > >Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:58:11 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: John Wieners (1934-2002) Comments: To: rloden@concentric.net In-Reply-To: <002501c1c2b2$e87c1de0$98000140@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i feel the same way rachel --impossible to say what i've lost, impossible to repay --fell i mean feel close to him, though i only met him a coupla times...managed to get my picture taken w/ him at orono... the loneliness of his poetry has inspired my most recent "thinking" about lyric... fellow bostonian, fellow singular, fellow hanging-on-by-a-threadster... At 4:56 AM -0800 3/3/02, Rachel Loden wrote: >The beauty of men never disappears >But drives a blue car through the > stars. > > --John Wieners > >Will miss him terribly. And I never met him. But he was with me through >decades and what he was entered and informed me in ways I will never >be fully able to account for or repay. "He's gone and taken / my >morphine with him / _Oh Johnny._ Women in / the night moan yr. name" > > >from "A Series" (in _Ace of Pentacles_): > > 5.3 > >Rain today and rain in the self. Reign. Return >to the place of imprisonment. Reign of life, how many >years left to bury the old heart and give birth to the new? >Reign of years, with each day a marking place of what >happens in the universe, what comes into ken, >of the stars and their turning. What one does not know. >Will never know. The desire to pierce space and >be up on the moon. Doomed as fellow men to >walk this place with sweat on our forehead. > That we are not given enough, must find >the means to fulfill our existence. That we are >given enough, too much as a distraction to pene- >trate the essential core of our being. And what is >that but a hollow place? No radiant outpouring >as stars of light. We have eaten away our basic >substance, fed it to the drugs, of days >when there was nothing to do. Too many on the calendar. > And yet this is substance, this despair. > To walk with it as a beloved companion, or >friend. See that as the broken leg we try to mend. >Cripples with no crutch, looking for the broken tree >to fashion into a stump. > And yet this is not the true condition. There >are comedies and comedians. Flowers in blossom. >The same old dirge. Age-old. The curse of >"Adam" that each man is heir to, and equipped >for--interrupted by the doctor coming down the >hall--that each man is heir, and for which each >is equipped. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:02:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit when has there ever been a working class poetics? There have been poets who identified with the "masses"like Neruda, Levine, Cardenal et cetera but even they were not working class, a friend told me once the working class does not have a poetics because they work, allot. I think that the real issue to ask (an I consider myself a follower of a post-language poetics) is how do you address the real mass in the USA and Europe which is the office worker. The "professional"who lives in the suburbs ot yuppiedum and does not reflect and poetry does not even enter their minds. I think that if that group could be addressed in some way a real social movement based on poetics could realized. This was done in Chile in the 1960's and in other nations because a poetical sense effected the middle classes. Now in nations with a real working class like in the developing world there is a chance for a real working class poetics but unfortunately Americans and Europeans live in Thorsten Veblen's leisure class RB ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dodie Bellamy" To: Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 3:24 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > Rae, > > Having entered the Bay Area writing scene when the lang-pos were on > the rise, the general perception that was fed to me as a young writer > was that it was a carefully orchestrated group endeavor, a take over. > I was too naive at the time to have any accurate personal > perceptions. But I doubt the movement would have been nearly as > effective if it was just a bunch of working class folks getting > together. No doubt, there is more class variety among lang-pos than > is sometimes assumed, but I don't think you can dismiss the > importance of class privilege in the movement. > > And when did Laura Moriarty become a language poet? I'm glad to see > she's finally being included. > > From my youthful field observation, an important impact the lang-pos > had on the Bay Area scene was redefining what a poet was--from > drunken, lascivious party animal to professional. Readings became > literary events and everybody got rigorous. Arcane vocabularies were > introduced that I saw people scrambling to learn. In the early 80s a > mentor said to me, "Writing is a middle class occupation, and if you > want to be a writer you've got to learn to be more middle class." I > was appalled, but the same info was passed on to me, over and over, > in more subtle ways. > > And yes, the class oppression in adjuncting. > > Dodie > > >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for > >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of > >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just > >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is > >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. > > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt > >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working > >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry > >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job > >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat > >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. > >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth > >discussing. > > > >Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 13:48:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what >Hardt >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data >entry >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >discussing. As you say, Rae, there are problems with this, #1 being: the "old" working class doesn't seem to be any less present and oppressed than it ever was (but I haven't read Hardt & Negri, & may be construing them too simplistically). Nevertheless, as one of their "new" proles, i.e. a frequent adjuncter (tho I'm currently enjoying a 2-year visiting position with the title of assistant professor, decent pay, and benefits--hallelujah, and may my next gig not be a backsliding into part-timing), I am intrigued as to what new social formations of class-identity and prejudice might attend this development. To me, the signal aspect of the old-school working class is, as Dodie points out, a certain behavioral stigma or imprint that manifests itself in our sense of humor, taste in clothes and food, learned willingness to submit to various opiates both chemical and ideological, etc. OUR TENDENCY TO BE LOUD TALKERS, and again as Dodie so aptly put it, the "monkey-in-a-suit" anxiety. Could there be a total reversal, wherein the new technocrats and monied philistines are the ones stamped as "dufuses" and "geeks," and the new working class is cast as a great unwashed sea of erudition? Or would the invisible lines of power allow for such an incongruous mix? How do they maintain class superiority ideologically when it's perfectly clear that the poor are the smarter ones? I guess the answer is obvious, and it's already happening: through beauty and "cool," through material accumulation encoded as sophistication. The recent economy has been so porous and unstable that it points up a very important fact: there's nothing inherently noble or decent about being working-class (in case anyone was still suffering under that romantic delusion), since many of the new rich are former working-class, and many of the important cultural textures that are disappearing from our lives are centuries-old bourgeois and aristocratic inventions: manners, taste, discretion, sentiment, etc. These things are important not because they're essential qualities on some transcendent plane; obviously they have been and continue to be some of the most insidious ideological tools employed to maintain oppressive divisions, etc. Rather, they are quite simply the best constructs we know that are occasionally capable of forestalling violence, instilling tolerance, enriching life experience, and all that good stuff. So part of the onus I feel as a working-class poet is the imperative to maintain class distinction (not to be a class traitor, in other words) while also working to _change_ the definition of what counts as prole expression, even if that means dipping into the Opponent's inkwell. This is, among other things, a dilemma for representation. How to represent prole experience without either idealizing it or reducing it to reactionary satire? And, on top or subsuming that difficulty, whether to "represent" in any traditional sense at all, since the mimetic gesture per se is so subject to ideological suspicion on the part of the avant garde? Neoconfessionalism, anyone? Didn't think so. Kasey ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 16:59:21 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dodie, Yes, it did very much matter that some people had the personal resources (and the optimism) to start presses such as The Figures or Tuumba, etc. Without them - without that - it would have been another story. Actually there would have been no story. As for Laura M., I didn't mean to open up the topic of who is a "language poet" and who isn't. That's pretty tired. I just wrote because some of the generalizations I've read irritated me a little. Rae ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 17:18:10 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kasey, Much industrial labor is being (notoriously) exported to the third world. That's one reason the face of the prole is changing. Hardt and Negri talk about that, of course. What they don't seem to get into is the "service sector" as the new dominant working class in the U.S. It's more glamorous to talk about the "knowledge worker, I suppose. They were talking about the armies of computer programmers and office managers, etc. I threw in the adjunct academic because it fits and because it's an issue I'm close to. It's piece-work for the educated. And you're right, it's hard to know what it means in terms of psychological class identification or self-identification. Economically, though, it's more clear-cut. Well, I've gotta go. It's Sunday so naturally I have work to do. Rae ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:41:16 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: John Wieners MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Once again a poet has passed without my knowing him or his work. I don't want to see his work relegated to a nicheor subject but the most i can do is ponder the words of his I can locate: half-a-decade of rest, the skin on my legs has changed it holds together now as a rich person by itself, I have vowed I shall never be again and know I shall never be lonely again, because of the love that dwells within poetry's mouth ('New Beaches') tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:00:46 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: John Wieners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/3/02 3:20:32 PM, ggatza@DAEMEN.EDU writes: << This is very sad news. Last Thursday a friend and I were reading over his poetry, she being new to his work and he an old favorite. His work was celebrated as some of the over cheap red wine. I never met him but know he moved through Buffalo's streets - I am very sad but wish him well on his journey. Best, Geoffrey >> Allow me to share Geoff's wish. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:59:29 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <6c.185ce041.29b3d664@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed so what or who are "working class poets".. if we follow the dictum that each new class coming into being in the terrain of production and the terrain of history creates,alongside itself, a stratum or "organic intellectuals" who explain itself to itself (e.g., they sit about the throne forever telling him who sits thereon who he is), must working class poets come strictly from the working class? "organic intellectuals" as poets may understand the real social substrate yet not be from the "working class." there may be working class poets who sing paeans re: banking etc. what does that tell us about al poets who are not at the direct point of social location? what does that say about donn, jonson, shakespeare marlowe etc? why care about clifton, sexton and rich? and homer? to whom do we give an ear and why? Gene At 02:41 PM 3/3/02 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >discussing. > >Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 19:06:30 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/3/02 5:53:33 PM, immerito@HOTMAIL.COM writes: << This is, among other things, a dilemma for representation. How to represent prole experience without either idealizing it or reducing it to reactionary satire? And, on top or subsuming that difficulty, whether to "represent" in any traditional sense at all, since the mimetic gesture per se is so subject to ideological suspicion on the part of the avant garde? Neoconfessionalism, anyone? Didn't think so. Kasey >> And ideology is, of course, the problem. When has the working class, however current their characterization, not been at the mercy of ideologues? Putting aside for the moment that mimetic gestures are possible only as semiotic play, the notion that all "representational" language serves corportate/capitalist agendas is itself suspect. On the one hand, we understand how bombarded we are by information controlled and delivered by corporate agencies. A good chunk of the language has most certainly been co-opted by commercial interests. But does the avant-garde as it is lately understood, i.e., as radical formalism, constitute a serious reaction to dehumanization, an escape plan, or does it merely reinforce the bars? The technology required for much avant-garde production is corporate initiated and owned, and is well situated within the monied class. So if the argument against representation includes some notion of dispensing with the tools of capitalism, e.g., the self, mimetic language, etc., then we may be in an even worse fix if we exchange those "traditions" for an artistic technocracy. In such a case artists may become less and less relevant, if that's possible. Is there much difference between a conventional love poem's resting upon a bourgeois/romantic idea of self cum dust bowl idealization, and any "avant-garde" production that reminds us up front of the textualized self in a room full of working class computer drones? Is it possible that corporate dominion might actually prefer the latter? Surely we are all familiar with the capitalist mindset that swallows everything with a shrug, with a "I don't know what it means, but I can buy and sell it." That mindset, it seems, fears only those things it finds meaningful, the challenge it understands. I don't know the answers, of course. But it does seem common sensical that if we care for the exploited, we'll want to communicate with them, and with ourselves since most of us are exploited. That means going to them, and in a language they understand, without sacrificing formal integrity. A tall order. But I do consider that is how the future calls to us. Ideologies are certainly interesting, usually dangerous. But perhaps we have forgotten, those among us who feel utterly isolated and "meaningless," that people are more important than art. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 18:11:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable okay to weigh in on the trivial side of things --i have known working-class folks who are soft-spoken, diffident, have understated but wickedly sharp senses of humor, etc... i take your point about style and stigma, but i always feel the need to point out that these are generalizations to which many exceptions can be found. to recall a differently inflected case, i remember in my late teens telling a classmate at my superWASPy girls' school that my father was Jewish. "Dr. Damon is Jewish?" she asked incredulously. "But...he's not vulgar!" (This girl had a Jewish boyfriend, and her father was totally flipping out about it. At 1:48 PM -0800 3/3/02, K.Silem Mohammad wrote: >>From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM >> But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what >>Hardt >>and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >>class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data >>entry >>employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >>security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >>did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >>There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >>discussing. > >As you say, Rae, there are problems with this, #1 being: the "old" working >class doesn't seem to be any less present and oppressed than it ever was >(but I haven't read Hardt & Negri, & may be construing them too >simplistically). Nevertheless, as one of their "new" proles, i.e. a >frequent adjuncter (tho I'm currently enjoying a 2-year visiting position >with the title of assistant professor, decent pay, and benefits--hallelujah= , >and may my next gig not be a backsliding into part-timing), I am intrigued >as to what new social formations of class-identity and prejudice might >attend this development. To me, the signal aspect of the old-school workin= g >class is, as Dodie points out, a certain behavioral stigma or imprint that >manifests itself in our sense of humor, taste in clothes and food, learned >willingness to submit to various opiates both chemical and ideological, etc= =2E > OUR TENDENCY TO BE LOUD TALKERS, and again as Dodie so aptly put it, the >"monkey-in-a-suit" anxiety. Could there be a total reversal, wherein the >new technocrats and monied philistines are the ones stamped as "dufuses" an= d >"geeks," and the new working class is cast as a great unwashed sea of >erudition? Or would the invisible lines of power allow for such an >incongruous mix? How do they maintain class superiority ideologically when >it's perfectly clear that the poor are the smarter ones? I guess the answe= r >is obvious, and it's already happening: through beauty and "cool," through >material accumulation encoded as sophistication. > >The recent economy has been so porous and unstable that it points up a very >important fact: there's nothing inherently noble or decent about being >working-class (in case anyone was still suffering under that romantic >delusion), since many of the new rich are former working-class, and many of >the important cultural textures that are disappearing from our lives are >centuries-old bourgeois and aristocratic inventions: manners, taste, >discretion, sentiment, etc. These things are important not because they're >essential qualities on some transcendent plane; obviously they have been an= d >continue to be some of the most insidious ideological tools employed to >maintain oppressive divisions, etc. Rather, they are quite simply the best >constructs we know that are occasionally capable of forestalling violence, >instilling tolerance, enriching life experience, and all that good stuff. > >So part of the onus I feel as a working-class poet is the imperative to >maintain class distinction (not to be a class traitor, in other words) whil= e >also working to _change_ the definition of what counts as prole expression, >even if that means dipping into the Opponent's inkwell. > >This is, among other things, a dilemma for representation. How to represen= t >prole experience without either idealizing it or reducing it to reactionary >satire? And, on top or subsuming that difficulty, whether to "represent" i= n >any traditional sense at all, since the mimetic gesture per se is so subjec= t >to ideological suspicion on the part of the avant garde? >Neoconfessionalism, anyone? Didn't think so. > >Kasey > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >K. Silem Mohammad >Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit >University of California Santa Cruz > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world=EDs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:11:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <6c.185ce041.29b3d664@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" They say the new working >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. Well, this describes me (and I assume a bunch (more than some, less than a lot?) of people on this list. I don't know that I'd describe myself as working class though (not that I'm opposed to that term to describe myself, but given my traditional (blue collar (whatever the hell that means (I mean I know (but I don't know (you know?)))), physical labor oriented) definition of working class I don't really see that description as applying to me.) Though I am poor and have no job security and regularly write checks for things I can't live without (food, electricity, rent) whose only hope of clearing is by miracle. So I guess it depends on how much your income has to do with what class you're in. Though I know some people who've lived high on the hog, as they say, with only a few clams to their names. Por exemplo, if I didn't owe the gubment all the money I do (student loans, parking - speeding - etc. tickets, taxes (though I'm sort of in favor of the taxes I must say)) and all the rest of the people I owe money too, then I might be too. But then you've got the parent/background thing (which sounds almost at times like it's giving the same kind of transference rules to economic class as are given to race/ethnicity (which I don't know if is wrong/right (or whether it even matters) but is interesting and worth thinking more about (by me or you or someone else)) which some have implied. Like, my background I would describe as middle class (though so would roughly 75% of US citizens from a wide variety of backgrounds I heard in one study about (sorry to be vague and nonsensical -- that is to say: everybody in the US thinks they're middle class)) cuz I had all the stuff I needed (food, clothes, shelter, pens and paper) and a bunch of stuff I didn't (a cool bike, fast tennis shoes, a guitar, an allowance) and we never had too too much to worry about except when I asked for something like some goofy shirt with some stripes and paislies and three collars and buttons up one armpit and then my mom said "we don't have the money." And my dad's a dr. geologist at a research foundation and my mom's a public middle school art teacher (I know bless her soul -- she's retiring this year) so while the money wasn't plentiful in the early days there was never a permanent lack and they've even had some extra to help (tho then there's that old give a man -- teach a man question (though sometimes I just want a goddamn fish)) me (sometimes a lot) through thin times over the years. Though I never had a trust fund, but got a grand from an aunt who died (a really wonderful woman who'll I'll miss who could play the violin and insult you as sweet as you may.) But maybe what I'm de facto describing as working class is really just abject poverty and so I 1.) don't know what working class is (see above parenthetical statement) 2.) or I've been it for a long time and just didn't know (see the another parenthical statement above) 3.) something else I can't yet imagine/think if only to debinarinize what I'm saying/not saying? (shit did it again) Then there's what Dodie said (which has resonance (meaning I can imagine it happening with ease/little work -- mine that is) for me though no one ever said it to me and I didn't think it till Dodie said it (you know?)) about having to be more middle class to be a writer. I mean what does it mean to be more middle class? When I read that I had a series of reactions which are bound to my traditional (western, white, middle class (circular you say? (what a clusterfuck, huh?))) notions of class and seem to be echoed in others people's posts (that there's even been a question of intelligence and an implied "dumbing down" in relation to working class poets/poems/poetics) and it had something to do with my own traditional ideas of high/low culture and like you gotta like monet and pate to be middle class (or something really dumb like that (cuz really everybody should like pate (really (it can be sooo good -- mmmmmm.)))) But I've got this dream see? this dream that someday some someday I'll get a callback or a writeback from one of the unversities to which I send "cover letter, C.V., and three recommendations" and I'll put on a suit and talk and flirt and look people in the eye over a firm handshake and enough of a smile to seem friendly but not too much so I look brainless and get the job -- the real job, the job with the money and the security and the graduate classes that are about more than what to do with an enthymeme aside from with the coffee. See? And I'll even get to keep writing weird poems that don't make sense about a town everybody hates (washington, dc.) And so I think the scope of somebody's (anybody's really even your body's) dreams has something to do with class (which is why we all think we are?) -- cuz my life maybe/maybe not be working class, but damn if my dreams aren't (like it or no) middle class, you know what I mean? And I gotta wonder (cuz I do and I think should) if I'm gonna get my dream and if I do if I'm gonna think it actually sucks. But what else am I gonna do (poet, slack-ass mf as I am (though for any possible employers who ever read this that's no comment on my academic, teacherly, or intellectual productivity -- which has been remarked as high by many I might add (if I added, but I don't that's my friend Hugh's job who's a Knotitian) (see letters of rec)))? I'd really like to know. This is the wrong way to say that I'm with Rae and wondering about this stuff too and I'd like to hear what smarter people have to say about the questions? Especially cuz "working class" seems at times in many types of discussion to become an icon without even considering what working class poets/poetics/poems are. Ken At 02:41 PM 3/3/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >discussing. > >Rae Armantrout > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:09:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <6c.185ce041.29b3d664@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed In which countries are we both before and after the heyday of unions? Gene At 02:41 PM 3/3/02 -0500, you wrote: >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >discussing. > >Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:11:34 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <200203031959.OAA03971@dept.english.upenn.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable yep, yep uh-huh. and that writing tells it like it is I suppose. Gene At 02:59 PM 3/3/02 -0500, you wrote: >Thanks to Kasey for his comments below on working-class poetry. In >semi-response I thought I'd post a short section of my long editor's note >to COMBO 8, which was itself a roving response to Steve Evans' critique of >FENCE and the broo-ha-ha which followed ('member that??): this little >snippet seems relevant to Kasey's comments: > >[Evans sees the acceptance of (and appearance in) Fence by many >avant-garde writers whom he admirers as emblematic of a capitulation to >the basic model of literary king-making which the work of those writers >would seem to repudiate. Clover, in his response, calls Evans' out for >positing a moment (nostalgic) when the avant-garde wasn't complicit, if >not with the poetic mainstream than with the economic mainstream: > >"It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde pursues radical invention, >discovery, practice, et cet, in a space cleared, with fierce frequency, by >personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the mainstream not because you >appointed me thus in '98, but because I've never inherited a penny." > >This last equation (a-g =3D patronized, m-s =3D unpatronized working world)= is >a gross reduction which depends for its effect on an extremely limited >definition of "avant-garde" (perhaps buoyed by the continental flavor of >the word, which is why I've always preferred "experimental" though Clover >links that one to the phenomenon whereby "captains of industry...have >in-house invention centers" which in turn affirms his earlier point that >"trust funds act as the market's Research & Development funds.") By his >definition, we would have to pretend, for instance, that the Black Arts >movement was not an avant-garde movement. Likewise we would have to >pretend that the work of poets who are part of the Combo community - from >Kristen Gallagher to Mark Sardinha - are either being supported by parents >firmly ensconced in the middle or upper class, or are the twice removed >recipients of trust-fund bonuses. Both implied propositions are, >incidentally, complete horseshit. Sardinha, as he mentioned in his >contributors note to Combo 7, gets his writing done while (or despite) >working full time as a pipefitter in Fall River, MA; the writing is some >of the best going, really important, original work: original in the sense >that he is genuinely modifying the Anglo-American language. Clover's >narrative can't account for a writer like Sardinha any more than it can >account for the moment in which Rodrigo Toscano read and discussed his >poem, "Notes on the Great Strike of '97" with his fellow union workers, as >he described during PhillyTalks 5; writing that Barrett Watten has >described as "anything but a uniform aporia of surfaces and disavowed >meanings=C9rejecting both univocal materiality and its supporting idealist >investments..."] > >That's what I wrote several months ago. I'll only add, for lack of time, >that having talked to Josh Clover since, it's clear to me that his >self-definition above was meant to be ironic: i.e. to point out not that >he was a part of the mainstream in regards to the form or content of his >work, necessarily, but rather that economic factors placed him thus. This >does not seem to me to be the case but it does add nuance top mey original >reading of his critique. > >-m. > > > According to Kasey Mohammad: > > > Ditto to Michael Bibby in regard to his praise for Maria Damon's and= Carey > > Nelson's books. Both indispensable. And I'll have to check out= Michael's > > Vietnam book--sounds fascinating. > > > > Just looked at the HOW2 site. Some interesting stuff there as well. > > > > What emerges from the different comments I've seen is that the idea of > > "working-class poetry" involves a wickedly convoluted and sometimes > > contradictory complex of assumptions: > > 1) that if you are working-class, your writing somehow inevitably=20 > "reflects" > > that status, either in thematics or formally or both (which might seem= like > > a fair assumption, seeing that no progressive or radical thinker would= =20 > dream > > of questioning the parallel axiom that bourgeois and aristocratic=20 > values and > > experience are reflected in the literature produced by the bourgeoisie= and > > aristocrats); > > 2) that working-class poets are more likely to be "content-driven,"= whereas > > bourgeois poets are more likely to be formally "experimental" or > > obscurantist; > > 3) that working-class poets write for working-class readers, and= bourgeois > > poets for bourgeois readers, etc.; > > 4) that working-class poets are often limited in their range and=20 > efficacy by > > naive, sentimental, or otherwise unsophisticated conventions; > > 5) that working-class poets have some sort of duty to represent their > > experience as members of that class; > > 6) conversely, that _only_ working-class poets are legitimately= authorized > > to represent such experience: no one but members of the working class=20 > can be > > working-class poets, whereas no such restriction applies to= working-class > > poets who wish to represent bourgeois or aristocratic experience, or if= it > > does, it is not as clearly articulated (note that this is a historically > > specific observation--such restrictions _were_ implicit in, say, early > > modern culture); > > 7) that working-class poets who try to write in "innovative" forms are > > sacrificing the vital transparency that alone is capable of rendering= the > > material immediacy of their economic conditions in favor of an elitist= mode > > that is indelibly inscribed with the dominant ideology which oppresses= the > > working classes; > > 8) that working-class poets who _don't_ write in innovative forms are > > closed-minded and provincial; > > 9) "innovative," "experimental," etc., mean the same things for > > working-class poets that they do for bourgeois poets; > > and so on. > > > > With a mess like this, one is tempted to suspect that the entire concept= is > > next to worthless. And yet, one of the most striking features of > > experimental poetry since the 70's, for example and maybe especially > > Language Poetry, has been its situation in a context of working-class > > concerns. The idea of class seems absolutely essential in gauging the > > social significance of post-Open Form theory and praxis. Ron Silliman= is > > clearly a working-class poet in an important sense (and I don't recall > > offhand if I know anything about his actual economic background; I'm=20 > talking > > about the way his work reads, the kinds of experience it invokes). John > > Ashbery, not so much. But both poets would probably be categorized by= most > > readers as on the same side of this working-class/experimental divide= that > > is in question. That is, on the experimental side. In other words, > > "working-class poet" is a kind of self-defeating label: in order to have= it > > attached to you, your work needs to be identified as "non-experimental" > > beforehand, or else no one will take the label seriously. > > > > So where does that leave poets like Silliman, or Dorothy Trujillo Lusk,= or > > myself, who draw heavily on working-class perceptions and experiences? = I > > suspect that few people who come to my work for the first time would go= =20 > away > > thinking "working-class poetry," and yet, I do feel that my economic > > background (which is actually less working-class than welfare-class) is > > somehow, however obliquely, a factor in my writing. For example, I= suspect > > that my "sampling" of pop culture references might in many cases have a > > different meaning from a "non-working-class" poet's "sampling," however > > formally similar our two approaches. But I'll stop here for now. > > > > Kasey > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:15:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed you know, I always thought that lang-po was a Chinese working class poet from the early 20th century or, perhaps, a haiku master. how surprising to find out that there are/were many lang-pos. maybe many good Chinese working class poets. Gene At 12:24 PM 3/3/02 -0800, you wrote: >Rae, > >Having entered the Bay Area writing scene when the lang-pos were on >the rise, the general perception that was fed to me as a young writer >was that it was a carefully orchestrated group endeavor, a take over. >I was too naive at the time to have any accurate personal >perceptions. But I doubt the movement would have been nearly as >effective if it was just a bunch of working class folks getting >together. No doubt, there is more class variety among lang-pos than >is sometimes assumed, but I don't think you can dismiss the >importance of class privilege in the movement. > >And when did Laura Moriarty become a language poet? I'm glad to see >she's finally being included. > > From my youthful field observation, an important impact the lang-pos >had on the Bay Area scene was redefining what a poet was--from >drunken, lascivious party animal to professional. Readings became >literary events and everybody got rigorous. Arcane vocabularies were >introduced that I saw people scrambling to learn. In the early 80s a >mentor said to me, "Writing is a middle class occupation, and if you >want to be a writer you've got to learn to be more middle class." I >was appalled, but the same info was passed on to me, over and over, >in more subtle ways. > >And yes, the class oppression in adjuncting. > >Dodie > >>Dear Kasey and whoever else, >> >> I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for >>whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of >>working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just >>to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is >>produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. >> But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt >>and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working >>class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry >>employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job >>security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat >>did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. >>There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth >>discussing. >> >>Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:20:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <000b01c1c2f6$af2586a0$2e924e0c@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed there are no social movements based on poetics. there never were. that's a romance. social movements are based on jobs, bread, housing, health care etc. poetry changes nothing but your mind. and, it doesn't even do that. it only helps the change along that has already been brewing. poetry is not the material basis of change. it is the voice of need and the voice of reflection and the voice of desire, now and then and again. Gene At 04:02 PM 3/3/02 -0500, you wrote: >when has there ever been a working class poetics? There have been poets who >identified with the "masses"like Neruda, Levine, Cardenal et cetera but even >they were not working class, a friend told me once the working class does >not have a poetics because they work, allot. I think that the real issue to >ask (an I consider myself a follower of a post-language poetics) is how do >you address the real mass in the USA and Europe which is the office worker. >The "professional"who lives in the suburbs ot yuppiedum and does not reflect >and poetry does not even enter their minds. I think that if that group >could be addressed in some way a real social movement based on poetics could >realized. This was done in Chile in the 1960's and in other nations because >a poetical sense effected the middle classes. >Now in nations with a real working class like in the developing world there >is a chance for a real working class poetics but unfortunately Americans and >Europeans live in Thorsten Veblen's leisure class > >RB > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Dodie Bellamy" >To: >Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 3:24 PM >Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > > > > Rae, > > > > Having entered the Bay Area writing scene when the lang-pos were on > > the rise, the general perception that was fed to me as a young writer > > was that it was a carefully orchestrated group endeavor, a take over. > > I was too naive at the time to have any accurate personal > > perceptions. But I doubt the movement would have been nearly as > > effective if it was just a bunch of working class folks getting > > together. No doubt, there is more class variety among lang-pos than > > is sometimes assumed, but I don't think you can dismiss the > > importance of class privilege in the movement. > > > > And when did Laura Moriarty become a language poet? I'm glad to see > > she's finally being included. > > > > From my youthful field observation, an important impact the lang-pos > > had on the Bay Area scene was redefining what a poet was--from > > drunken, lascivious party animal to professional. Readings became > > literary events and everybody got rigorous. Arcane vocabularies were > > introduced that I saw people scrambling to learn. In the early 80s a > > mentor said to me, "Writing is a middle class occupation, and if you > > want to be a writer you've got to learn to be more middle class." I > > was appalled, but the same info was passed on to me, over and over, > > in more subtle ways. > > > > And yes, the class oppression in adjuncting. > > > > Dodie > > > > >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > > > > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for > > >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of > > >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, >just > > >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is > > >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) >facts. > > > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what >Hardt > > >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new >working > > >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data >entry > > >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job > > >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial >proletariat > > >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. > > >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth > > >discussing. > > > > > >Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 02:40:14 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To David, Dodie and The List(ers). This is interesting. I agree that the class origions are kind of "stamped" into one. That is the same as the way that in our formative years certain things we learn or experience have profound and long-lasting effects - it doesnt mean we are slaves to them. We can change, but there will still remain certain attitudes, reactions etc "deep" in our psyche so to speak. The individual has control over his/her life but there are large, general forces, that create what is known as the "class system" and the US, NZ (my own country)the Euroean nations, Canada and Australia, and in fact all countries in the world have there own class (and religious etc) structures. Religions and culture "interfere" with these structures which are almost universal: and in general the Marxist picture is correct in regard to the world: the bourgeiosie - who were once the middle class - are now in fact the ruling class (the owners of the means of production) and in this the term bourgeious and "middle class" gets confused: (as my spelling of bourgeios does!) the middle class that most people refer to is that "better-off class" in their own country eg people who might be technitians or engineers, or accountants etc being "higher" than factory workers....and so on ... I was brought up in a working class area, and my parents were basically from working class origions, but my father had become an architect: now I always felt somewhat alienated from both the "higher" people AND the "lower" ... eg truck drivers etc but coupled to that was my own very (as a teenager and a young man) introverted and sometimes almost psychopathically arrogant nature: so my "alienation" is hard for me to say came from being working class...I ( which contradicted my alternating "sweet" and "quiet" nature on the outside...and so on) worked for many years in factories, eg a cheese factory, a fibre glass factory, a foundry (terrible job!), freezing works, Railway Workshops (where I met some communists and got interested in active politics), builder's labourer, timber worker, house removals (15 hour days), paint factory, car manufacuring assembly line, bed making factory, in a factory that made "stereos" (the rubber things for printing), wool store, a radio factory, a television assembly line, and then I worked as a lineman-cable jointer eventually becoming a foreman on the NZ Post Office (now Telecom which is partly US controlled) and then in the New Zealand electricity communications section as a (hands on) engineering tech on radio, microwave (involving eg being 100 metres on a tower to reorient the polarity of an antenna which means one has to use a safety belt (to "lean out into space", so as to work with both hands,so to speak), then I did some fence contracting, had a business clearing rubbish, then a job in a freight company where I hurt my back very badly. Meantime I got my NZCE (Telecommunications and electronics) and the a degree in English (Lit and some philosophy). Now i'm "building a second hand book business...online mostly... But I've never felt "working class" ... I was and still am very much a loner ... I missed out that I was happily married for some years and have three (mostly very happy children: the youngest is 23 and is about in a month to make me a grandpa!! I have never felt comfortable all that time though with either the "better" people or some of the more "basic" working class types.... However: however that feeling of alienation from (well even some of the University academics I've met whom I dont "hate" or anything, but sense a kind of "scorn" for myself: but that sense of scorn could well just be a bit of normal paranoia (we all have a dash of p. in us))... And I think that the original Richard, who was once very "intense" and febrile if now older is still "at the core" still the "supersensitive" (a doctor's term about me) person I was: of course I am now a much more open, confident and self-reliant and personable person than I was a 20 year old.....in fact using the concepts of Dr Wayne Dyer I have reached the stage in which I almost am never unhappy (exempting natural events such as family events and so on), have virtually no depression and feel very much in control of my own abilityto be happy at mostvtimes and deal with everything that life throws my way: even an announcement that I was termally ill I would now see as a challenge, althoug I;m not encouraging old "Death" too much!!.......... But to what extent is any poetry I have or would write is or might be "working class" ... I think that people are thinking about these things lately because of the terrible (and in some ways good) "jolt" caused by S11 and its aftermath: at the very least we are all suddenly thinking more "politically" and I was thinking (just before this working class poetry debate began) what kind of poetry would be meaning full in a world where classes per se had been gradually "withered away" (we are talking a very long time span), and there is one world and every one is - more or less - on an equal footing: as Mao tse Tung points out, even as Socialism is implemented, there are still many struggles (between or intra-class, between men and women, the sceintific or materialist versus the idealist, right or wrong versus right or wrong however these are defined, and one can extrapolate "progress" versus the "bite-back" effect of so-called progress, and so on): so we dont get the kind of lobotomised dullness that certain right wingers would predict (any more than the capitalist revolutions that brought our present system into being meant that culture music art etc and any other creativity were (was) lessened)....in this respect we can see why Zukofsky (himself of working class origions) is as important as Stevens or Lorine Niedecker or Ed Dorn or indeed even Wieners or any poet or eg to some people Rod McKuen, or the "Liverpool Poets" - or Robert Creeley whose certainly "been around" a bit....another poet who worked for years in factories etc was Peter Reading: who is a darkly humorous poet and one of my favourites...in Australia there's Les Murray (a bit of a red neck) and Ern Malley and Francis Webb and so on: here james K Baxter came to be a sort of Christ-communist figure..but he (whatever his origions) certainly highly "academic", Bill Manhire is of strange origions (apparently his father was a publican but he hates the "boozey" romantic image of "crazy poets" so he obviously would disapprove of Spicer or even our own Sam Hunt who is a great poet in his own way but has - I have detected - the residue of a plum in hs maw....but Bob Orr is quite definitely "working class" and has worked for years at sea and so forth (is called by an Auckland journalist "New Zealand's greatest living poet"), but who reads very widely and voraciously (as I know according to a fellow Auckland book dealer)..... To what extent can "art" be a near (or completely) autonomous thing free of class (hence political inferences and so on): after all some things to repet the old cliche are "universal" ..."love", death, pain, fear, ecstasy even curiosity and the drive for knowledge. Scroggin's book on Zukofsky is subbed "And the poetry of knowledge")... I think as we drive (eventually) toward a more egalitarian world we will see greater and more marvellous works by more people: but his wont devalue the "difficult" writers. We will all maybe see qualities in things as differnces rather than in hierarchies altho I suppose the old (genetic?) drive to form hierarchies will struggle with "democracy".... We can all be or bcome "monkeys in suits" but we aren't doomed to that: against the "historical forces" thesis the contradiction of "free will" will create the new antithesis. Whatever new forms human creativity takes it will always be complex simple surprising and rich. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dodie Bellamy" To: Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 7:26 AM Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. > David, > > Let me begin by saying that talking about class on the poetics list, > like talking about anything to do with feminism, has always lead me > to frustration but I can't seem to stop doing it anyway. > > Issues of class in the US are particularly complicated as it's so > often denied that social classes exist--or there is this naive > assumption that switching class is as easy as buying a new pair of > shoes. Go to college for a couple of years and zap you're middle > class. Or become successful writing and zap you're middle class. > I've heard more than once, for instance, that Dorothy Allison (author > of white trash classic, Bastard out of Carolina) is now middle class. > I don't know how many books had to be sold for her to make the > switch, but apparently many believe she's switched. Also, here in > the Bay Area at least, the experimental poetry scene is so monied, > I've heard people of firmly middle class origin refer to themselves > as working class, as if working class meant anybody who worked. > > It's hard to talk about class because it's existence is denied and > it's no longer on the liberal agenda, so one is seen as tedious if > one brings it up. But when I talk with writers of working class > origin, over and over it's the same feelings of alienation and > dismissal. And over and over I've seen incredibly intelligent and > talented writers of working class origin not get the few goodies > available to successful poets, eg, teaching and curatorial jobs and > (insular poetry scene) public adoration. This is not some covert > bitching about my own situation--I'm talking about other writers I've > watched and known over the years. > > Recently I read an essay by Catherine Clement in her collaborative > book with Julia Kristeva, The Feminine and the Sacred (I know, yucky > title) that clarified these issues for me. In it Clement makes a > distinction between social class and class origin. Social class can > be switched through education, jobs, etc. But class origin comes at > birth and sticks with a person. She compares it to caste. > > "The caste has nothing to do with 'social class,' that's certain. > But it maintains a very close relationship with the old Marxist > concept of 'class origin,' that mental file drawer that determines > the drives and thoughts from birth. For Marx, you can obviously > change your social class, but you cannot rid yourself of your 'class > origin' any more than, according to Sigmund Freud, you can rid > yourself of the unconscious. That being the case, the 'caste' of > origin plays the same role of the return of the repressed: the > slightest opening and it comes out. Impossible to get rid of it. A > little emotion and it reappears." (8) > > She goes on to a fascinating discussion in which she ties this to hysteria. > > This division is helpful for me in thinking through my own > relationship to class, coming from a lower working class background > and functioning in the bourgeois world of experimental writing, how > no matter how I attempt to assimilate I always feel like a monkey in > a suit. No matter what happens to me socially, I'll always consider > myself a working class writer, my gut level sense of humor, moral > system, relationship to body issues, etc. I think my sense of > cultural clash generates energy for my work, as often happens with > writers living within two worlds. > > Categories are switching and breaking down so rapidly these days that > I do think it's important to consider that in terms of class. Last > week, when Kevin and I went to Vancouver (which was great, wonderful > writing community there, wonderful people), as we were waiting in the > customs line, there was a teenage girl behind us who had the most > bizarre accent. She'd launch into this Valley Girl accent and then > switch to an equally strong Canadian (to our Californian ears) > accent, and she'd go back and forth, very schizzy, and it felt like > TV culture and home culture warring within her body. All of us are > being mauled by these global forces, god help us. > > Dodie > > At 12:01 AM +0000 2/23/02, david.bircumshaw wrote: > >Er, I am most definitely a counter-example. > > > >This is an interesting topic but also one I feel twitchy about. I am most > >definitely working-class, that is to say, not just born working-class but > >remaining so. I do not write to the stereotypes of how working-class poets > >should write. I use to be a shop-steward in my twenties, btw. But I find > >debates on this matter restrictive from both sides, as it were, there are > >those who carry around prescriptions of how us lower-classes should write, > >while at the same time others tyles seem to have guardians installed to keep > >out the hoi-polloi. > > > >That people on this list might be uncomfortable with the idea of > >working-class poets doesn't surprise me, I'm afraid to say, it's much the > >same elsewhere. Those who are supposed to be silent shouldn't start > >speaking, should they? > > > >Best > > > >Dave > > > > > >David Bircumshaw > > > >Leicester, England > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:57:43 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit si and PLS don't forget the lowly telephone operator "an ass, a mouth, an ear, and eyes" ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:58:11 -0500 Reply-To: managingeditor@sidereality.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Clayton A. Couch" Subject: Announcing SIDEREALITY: A JOURNAL OF SPECULATIVE & EXPERIMENTAL POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Poetry Readers: The first issue (March-April, 2002) of SIDEREALITY: A JOURNAL OF SPECULATIVE & EXPERIMENTAL POETRY (http://www.sidereality.com), a new bimonthly poetry webzine, is being released today. Please stop by very soon and read the excellent poetry that we've gathered for our inaugural issue. Here are some of the poets appearing in Volume 1, Issue 1: William Allegrezza, John M. Bennett, Annabelle Clippinger, Ray DiZazzo, David Kopaska-Merkel, Christopher Mulrooney, Eileen Tabios, Keeanga Taylor, Aidan Thompson, Mikal Trimm, and several others. We hope you will enjoy SIDEREALITY, and we encourage you to visit often. Sincerely, Clayton A. Couch Managing Editor, sidereality managingeditor@sidereality.com http://www.sidereality.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 03:45:19 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ken. You're roght I think i much you say: but he strict definion of working class would actually include everyone EXCEPT people who own the meeans of production. Now the psychlogical social and other orientations are important plus what you (or I ) have "received" from our parents (both in material terms and psychological input (some things in families transcend class: eg love, survival, sibling rivalry (in as much as they are not "coloured" by other class factors, religion - which may (usually is) be linked to class))....so its not how much you earn: the well known phenomena of the guy or guyesses who lives on credit (infact that's how the X's lived in Thackeray's "Vanity Fair" - was it the Sharp's?) and the crooks who live for years on stolen credit cards...a knowledge worker which is what I bacame (somewhat) or was becoming before I went back to uni to do English (which is not a money-earning class climbing degree so to speak) is still a worker: an accountant is a worker: even a bank manager, even an astronomer, or a sharebroker: of course these people are more likely to be "bourgeios (ruling class) orientated and capable of becoming of the rulng class (owner of the means of production) and some "working class" people have shares: my grandfather in London was a petit bourgeois (I still cant spell that word) and so on...but we are all of us descended from the Big Bang: the class system exists, but the coming annihiliation of the Universe probably also exists as up until I last heard Steven hawking still existed.....I'm not telling anyone anything when I say that the thinking of a "rich" worker might be "left wing" and a "worker" in a factory in China or Indonesia or wherever might be "right wing" and vica versa.... But I'm going to study your and others's emails more and then write somethin' more....You are like me: probably well to do working class on a low income but with lots of "perks" and live well but alweays paying bills and moaning but basically having a great time: only diffrence son is that I've slowed down at 50 and only get drunk in charge, not so many speeding tickets!! Not chasing "sheilas" (kiwi for young women) like I used ta. Cheers, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Rumble" To: Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 2:11 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > They say the new working > >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry > >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job > >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat > >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. > > Well, this describes me (and I assume a bunch (more than some, less than a > lot?) of people on this list. I don't know that I'd describe myself as > working class though (not that I'm opposed to that term to describe myself, > but given my traditional (blue collar (whatever the hell that means (I mean > I know (but I don't know (you know?)))), physical labor oriented) > definition of working class I don't really see that description as applying > to me.) Though I am poor and have no job security and regularly write > checks for things I can't live without (food, electricity, rent) whose only > hope of clearing is by miracle. So I guess it depends on how much your > income has to do with what class you're in. Though I know some people > who've lived high on the hog, as they say, with only a few clams to their > names. Por exemplo, if I didn't owe the gubment all the money I do > (student loans, parking - speeding - etc. tickets, taxes (though I'm sort > of in favor of the taxes I must say)) and all the rest of the people I owe > money too, then I might be too. But then you've got the parent/background > thing (which sounds almost at times like it's giving the same kind of > transference rules to economic class as are given to race/ethnicity (which > I don't know if is wrong/right (or whether it even matters) but is > interesting and worth thinking more about (by me or you or someone else)) > which some have implied. Like, my background I would describe as middle > class (though so would roughly 75% of US citizens from a wide variety of > backgrounds I heard in one study about (sorry to be vague and nonsensical > -- that is to say: everybody in the US thinks they're middle class)) cuz I > had all the stuff I needed (food, clothes, shelter, pens and paper) and a > bunch of stuff I didn't (a cool bike, fast tennis shoes, a guitar, an > allowance) and we never had too too much to worry about except when I asked > for something like some goofy shirt with some stripes and paislies and > three collars and buttons up one armpit and then my mom said "we don't have > the money." And my dad's a dr. geologist at a research foundation and my > mom's a public middle school art teacher (I know bless her soul -- she's > retiring this year) so while the money wasn't plentiful in the early days > there was never a permanent lack and they've even had some extra to help > (tho then there's that old give a man -- teach a man question (though > sometimes I just want a goddamn fish)) me (sometimes a lot) through thin > times over the years. Though I never had a trust fund, but got a grand > from an aunt who died (a really wonderful woman who'll I'll miss who could > play the violin and insult you as sweet as you may.) But maybe what I'm de > facto describing as working class is really just abject poverty and so I > 1.) don't know what working class is (see above parenthetical statement) > 2.) or I've been it for a long time and just didn't know (see the another > parenthical statement above) 3.) something else I can't yet imagine/think > if only to debinarinize what I'm saying/not saying? (shit did it again) > Then there's what Dodie said (which has resonance (meaning I can imagine it > happening with ease/little work -- mine that is) for me though no one ever > said it to me and I didn't think it till Dodie said it (you know?)) about > having to be more middle class to be a writer. I mean what does it mean to > be more middle class? When I read that I had a series of reactions which > are bound to my traditional (western, white, middle class (circular you > say? (what a clusterfuck, huh?))) notions of class and seem to be echoed in > others people's posts (that there's even been a question of intelligence > and an implied "dumbing down" in relation to working class > poets/poems/poetics) and it had something to do with my own traditional > ideas of high/low culture and like you gotta like monet and pate to be > middle class (or something really dumb like that (cuz really everybody > should like pate (really (it can be sooo good -- mmmmmm.)))) But I've got > this dream see? this dream that someday some someday I'll get a callback or > a writeback from one of the unversities to which I send "cover letter, > C.V., and three recommendations" and I'll put on a suit and talk and flirt > and look people in the eye over a firm handshake and enough of a smile to > seem friendly but not too much so I look brainless and get the job -- the > real job, the job with the money and the security and the graduate classes > that are about more than what to do with an enthymeme aside from with the > coffee. See? And I'll even get to keep writing weird poems that don't > make sense about a town everybody hates (washington, dc.) And so I think > the scope of somebody's (anybody's really even your body's) dreams has > something to do with class (which is why we all think we are?) -- cuz my > life maybe/maybe not be working class, but damn if my dreams aren't (like > it or no) middle class, you know what I mean? And I gotta wonder (cuz I do > and I think should) if I'm gonna get my dream and if I do if I'm gonna > think it actually sucks. But what else am I gonna do (poet, slack-ass mf > as I am (though for any possible employers who ever read this that's no > comment on my academic, teacherly, or intellectual productivity -- which > has been remarked as high by many I might add (if I added, but I don't > that's my friend Hugh's job who's a Knotitian) (see letters of rec)))? I'd > really like to know. > > This is the wrong way to say that I'm with Rae and wondering about this > stuff too and I'd like to hear what smarter people have to say about the > questions? Especially cuz "working class" seems at times in many types of > discussion to become an icon without even considering what working class > poets/poetics/poems are. > > Ken > > > > > > At 02:41 PM 3/3/2002 -0500, you wrote: > >Dear Kasey and whoever else, > > > > I've been waiting for Ron Silliman himself to jump into this but, for > >whatever reason, it doesn't seem he will this time. Ron is definitely of > >working class origin, as am I, as is Laura Moriarty, as is Tom Raworth, just > >to name a few. The people who say "innovative" poetry and or Langpo is > >produced by trust fund babies aren't really in touch with (all the) facts. > > But, going beyond the issue of class origin, I'm interested in what Hardt > >and Negri say about the 21st century proletariat. They say the new working > >class is largely composed of various "knowlege workers" -from the data entry > >employee to the "adjunct," "part-time" college teacher - who lack job > >security and benefits, living hand to mouth, as the industrial proletariat > >did before (and after) the heyday of the unions. > >There are no doubt problems with this idea, but I think it's worth > >discussing. > > > >Rae Armantrout > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:06:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed This sounds so much like the "good old days" circa 1970 when I (ever so briefly) lived in Buffalo during the height of Vietnam War // Kent State shooting paranoia. We went over the border (not to give readings, but just to go to Toronto or the beach) several times and were pulled over and harrassed every single time (hubcaps taken off the car to see where the drugs & guns might be, that sort of thing). It got to be a running joke. I remember once coming back with Alan Feldman, we began giggling in anticipation about 15 minutes north of the crossing point and were in such hysterics that Alan told the guard "I sure hope you can find our dope, because we can't find it anywhere"). Got searched that time too. & since Rae has invoked my name on the working class stuff, it's true. I think the question of class background, class orientation and class stance (three very different things) has to be asked in all cases & that the question of "what is the working class" circa 2002 is likewise very big. Negri and Hardt are not the best thinkers on this (or most other) issues. I do think that working with labor unions (for example) is totally good work, but the idea that it is anything other than trying to solve a beheading with bandaids is simply nostalgia. The underlying problem is that at this moment in history capitalism has lost its Other and what comes closest, alas, is theocratic fascism. The anti-globalism movement, taken as a whole, is frankly not promising, though it is within that coalition that answers will have to be found. Ron Silliman ron.silliman@gte.net rsillima@hotmail.com DO NOT RESPOND to Tottels@Hotmail.com It is for listservs only. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:27:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kasey Mohammad (Hotmail)" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <000b01c1c2f6$af2586a0$2e924e0c@oemcomputer> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 3/3/02 1:02 PM, Ray Bianchi at saudade@WORLDNET.ATT.NET wrote: > Now in nations with a real working class like in the developing world the= re > is a chance for a real working class poetics but unfortunately Americans = and > Europeans live in Thorsten Veblen's leisure class Please tell me you're being ironic. OK, granted, if by "leisure" you mean the state of mass hallucination piped in to our living-space boxes via TV, fast food, and subliminal billboards which convinces us we are privileged to live in said boxes and that there i= s something called a "vote," sure, it's a leisure class. Or if "leisure" means any standard of living even marginally above starving to death in a ditch with flies all over you. And this idea of nations with a "real" working class, which are accordingly equipped to produce a "real" working-class poetics: is this really the algebra by which we want to define the relation of a poetics to a given class? Imagine if only "real" cowboys could write "real" cowboy poetry, or only "real" linguists could write "real" Language poetry, or ... well, you get the idea. Of course there is a working-class poetics in America. Or more accurately, there are working-class poeticses. For example, no matter what you think o= f Philip Levine's merit as a writer, or what his economic background really counts as ("lower leisure class"?) he clearly engages working-class concern= s in his work, and seems to conceive of his larger image as a poet very much as an outgrowth of that identity. On the other end of the spectrum, someon= e like Rodrigo Toscano does the exact same thing (the difference being that his poetics works to analyze rather than represent). And another important thing: the meaning/value of a poem changes radically depending on our knowledge of who wrote it. Suppose you've got some barely literate lifer in San Quentin who writes an ode to freedom in end-stopped rhyming couplets with no discernible meter, and this ode has lots of references to iron bars and cruel wardens and electric chairs, etc. Obviously this guy's work is all about authenticity and direct communicatio= n of emotions, and the form is an expedient chassis. Anyone who judges it on the basis of that form is missing the point, and pretty insensitive to boot= . The social context of prison life demands that we acknowledge such work in terms of a poetics of expressivity or reject it outright. In fact, some people who otherwise have no patience for expressivism will accept it in this context, even to the point of active critical celebration. (I'm not getting into whether this is valid or not, I'm just making an observation; also, I _know_ that not all prison poetry is crude doggerel, so anyone who was planning to climb all over my back with that objection can just get right down off it in advance.) If the same poem were submitted in a portfolio for admittance to an MFA workshop in Vermont or somewhere, and it would be treated as either pathetically naive or a joke. Then again, if it turned up in a volume of Charles Bernstein's poetry, it would still be take= n as a "joke" of sorts, but a joke with "serious" literary implications. I would argue, however, that in all three cases it remains a "prison poem." Now let's imagine another San Quentin lifer, but let's give him a graduate degree. Let's say this one's poem is constructed according to a mixture of Cagean proceduralism and Swinburnian polymetrical decadence. Let's say it has no overt reference to prison or crime or freedom or any of that stuff i= n it. Oh hell, let's say it's a writing-through of Barrett Watten's _Plasma_= . It's copiously footnoted and gets published in _Open Letter_. Is this prison poetry? Sure it is. There's more at issue here than what kind of genitive "working-class" functions as, however. What's important is neither that more working-class individuals should write poetry, nor that more poetry should be written tha= t addresses working-class issues; what's important is that we learn to acknowledge poetic practice in general as a social activity that is inscribed by and in the larger context of class, race, economics, gender, and all the other terms that add up to "awareness of the world we live in." I think someone else said something similar to this in a recent post, but maybe what we really ought to be concerning ourselves with is not necessarily poetry _by_ or _about_ the working class, but _for_ the working class. "For" has its own overdetermined senses, of which I'll just hastily point out two: "addressed to" (in which sense the problem becomes whether t= o change the vocabulary of the poetry or of the audience, and if the latter, as seems preferable, does that have to be done outside of poetry first? no doubt) and "dedicated to the cause of." Just after writing this last part I stopped and checked my mail again and saw Bill Austin's post. Some overlap here, much more eloquent on Bill's part. Kasey =20 =80=80=20 k. silem mohammad visiting assistant professor of british & anglophone literature university of california santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 23:58:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: small change MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - small change "constitbreathe "mbreathe "consbreathe "esbreathe "existence"); @noun= ("bbreathe breathe "pabreathe breathe "breathe smell breathe @noun= ("breathe breathe "catbreathe "breathe "breathe "entity", smelbreathe tastes breathe tastes breathe tastes sucbreathe onto smebreathe sbreathe breathe suck breathe war:\n"; smelbreathe breathe sucbreathe thbreathe suckbreathe $g; smellbreathe "$noubreathe breathe wbreathe tastesbreathe suck wbreathe smell casbreathe breathe breathe suckbreathe tastesbreathe ___ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:17:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! In-Reply-To: <20020302063029.15754.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit This is brave of you, especially since said editor may be on POETICS. I got very embarrassed when I said something about a contest I didn't win and the director of the press sponsoring it was on the list... (and I didn't say I should have won, I simply said something about the style of chapbook that did win...) So I think you are brave. It would overwhelm the list and possibly ruin it, but perhaps be a gesture of protest againsts the difficulty of getting published in its own way, were people to systematically post poems that were rejected from various journals. If the quality of the poems posted was good enogh, one could even imagine an anthology, REJECTS, in which the poems would have headings like "Rejected by Shiny" and then the poem's title and author. The poems would have to have been rejected by sufficiently high quality journals to be accepted by REJECTS, and of course REJECTS could reject poems, too-- it would be a journal of the highest quality rejects... Then there could be an offshoot, Rejected by REJECTS, which would be photocopied badly on yellow paper and would accept anything which met the criteria: it would print poems that REJECTS rejected... :-) Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 1:30 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! NUMBAH FUNKTION!: angry 4 god (an mystery play) --------------------------------------------- "They'd always go out after dark "And make their way down to the park "To avoid a circling shark "Waiting for their prey "And one of them was on their own "Making such a tragic sight "Cause he cried into the empty night "Always eating sometimes sleep" -"Freezing Allelova" by Burning Man BRITNEY SURFER BARRY ROLFMAO LMAO MEGATRON BRITNEY: Applying eyeliner inside lingerie pad full of RED X'S tampax anthrax lick envelope lick it paper cut on creased edge your poor origami rigermarole friend wings spread torn LMAO: THY NAME O GOD SHALL NOT BE TRIFLED WITH X-ist Core dustbuster mode gone HELTER-SKELTER FOR CALVARY. Will your offenses stop at nothing unchecked no red stop sign no traffic SIGN BUS HEADED AT YOU BAM lying on street. Does your evil know no limits YOU MASOCHISTIC SICKO JACKASS SICK BASTARD ILLITERATE MISCREANT FRIGGIN MONKEY Horror is here to help you by punishing you & most infertile beloved Britney you chose to filch lifeguard uniform shirt off hook ready-to-wear off the rack a rag to wrap around your nut sack slithering from base of oak to oak to forage acorns thinking that by eating your nuts YOU COULD SEE GRACE SLICK you never hesitated at the green yellow red street light paused transgressions RANCID RINDS and BROKEN EGGSHELL commandment in the public square yolk this hatched: the string of ones and zeros you have written out ones zeros hellbent attempt to break the god code the HOLY OFF-LIMITS NUMBAH as in movie pi directed by Darren Aronofsky by accident or devilment in yr GNOMISH IGNORANCE you stumbled upon BARABBAS ROMAN NUMERAL TINDERBOX i c x 1 - 100 - 10 the first of the GLADIATOR KEYS. Storybook pandora the boxlid opened air filled with flying foxes. You were graced with THE FIRST VISITATION a cold shoulder 1-5-50-50-1-100-10 came on silent sabbath morning itself day of parthenogenesis from zero hour asked YOUR LEFT-OVERS your UNCRUSHED PARTS to break bread with you to eat cha ca lemongrass pho you missed golden opportunity SUCKAH did not eat with 1-5-50-50-1-100-10 eating outdoors in succah you could have watched the visitor's teeth GOLD FILLINGS GNAW MEAT from chicken bones someone with red x's goes inside FLYING SAUCER ABDUCTEE but one day never again emerged from flying saucer possessed thought you noticed something strange about her RED X'S that day Britney your EVIL FERMENTED DEGENERATE art not satisified with maligning chester barry man's name you ELECTROCUTED by God's a chalk outline on the floor a cover photo on The Sun in bodegas you are incapable of love GORY SALIVA making public "lick her until she begins to shudder, & would then continue to explore the rest of her body with yr tongue, with yr fingers" to distract her from yr PATHETIC LIMP LEOPARD-spotted love one thing: yr HASTENED HEARTBEAT! His saving BLOOD AWAIT OUR PUNISHMENT calico tea BLOODS RUSH FROM YR LUB-DUB-DUB TO YR SCRAWNY LIMBS as if to run out onto 8th Ave. in the dark of night past New Dragon Garden past Blah Blah past Dizzy's. May push CLOTTED STAGNATION from your veins dream theater SURFER IS REAL ARYAN we origami cranes shall protect your SHRIVELLED SPIRIT from o flowery ROLFMAO from o meowing LMAO from egalitarian MEGATRON watch for alligatorskin boots shoes a dead giveaway nomad demons you UNLEASHED COLLARLESS outside your window fire escape now in advance to be kind decimating your peace of mind hilarious charity so ROLFMAO LMAO & MEGATRON will not find a complete person to CONSUME but a broken man a BOILER PLATE SPECIAL the pillows are against the wall sitting upright, legs stretched out, laptop on forelegs, jeans undone, imagine a V just inside that, peeking out, they will eat the SEED YOU spill without her roaches the SEED THAT CORRODES at a BLUNTED DEAD END inside li'l crane you will little miss ANYTHING in Spanish fly you will little miss EVERYTHING in Spanish fly you will little miss nothing and Christian core guitarists grow out of yr Kleenexes RED X'S tomorrow your long beautiful hair ah shoulder-length shaved to scalp in basement yr kinda breakfast food NAUSEATED STOMACH KNOTTED NAUSEATED ESOPHAGUS ACID-SCALDED chester will not leave the room are you sorry yet do you feel bad you are bad bald new structure? you masochistic sicko jackass sick bastard illiterate miscreant friggin monkey dvd movies applying eyeliner water dish soap baptize you in water x-rays intercepted by satellite dish wash your mouth out with soap NO the chocolate has a price a scar! one thing only will save you thigh of baby jesus too precious too merciful vibration of subway tracks brief description in New York Post the next day alas your name obelus o --------------------------------------- o | """"""""""""" | o | """" ^ """" | o | """(*)""" | o | /(\ | o | (( )) | | \(/ | o | V | o | / \ | | / \ | o | / \ | o | / \ | o |____________/_________\______________| o | | o ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 22:18:20 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020303201616.00a1bc90@mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >there are no social movements based on poetics. there never were. that's a >romance. social movements are based on jobs, bread, housing, health care >etc. poetry changes nothing but your mind. and, it doesn't even do >that. it only helps the change along that has already been >brewing. poetry is not the material basis of change. it is the voice of >need and the voice of reflection and the voice of desire, now and then and >again. > >Gene In 1964 in Mexcity a revolutionary poet from El Salvador told me that there had to be agrarian reform of the mind before there could be agrarian reform of the earth. -- George Bowering Member of many special interest groups. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 02:13:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: new from duration press MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit duration press is pleased to announce that it has resumed its web-hosting, & domain registration program. there are a number of virtual hosting packages offered, & full details can be viewed at http://www.durationpress.org. For more information, contact jerrold@durationpress.com Jerrold Shiroma, director duration press www.durationpress.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:43:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: working class poets Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed There is in the US a journal called Blue Collar Review. And there's some really good poetry in it. As I see it, working class poetry is two things; a) poetry that points toward our common humanity, now and in terms of what we need to win ourselves back from capital and, b) poetry about work. Of course, the two may be integrated. But, the former need not come from "workers." And, perhaps, some of the latter may not. also. But, it mostly does. See Blue Collar Review...good stuff. Gene ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:22:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Annie Finch Subject: Re: NPR Needs our Help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Yes, the NPR one is bogus, and many of this informal type are bogus >and pointless--but that shouldn't stop people from signing the email >petitions sponsored at the websites of groups such as NRDC, People for the >American Way, Feminist Majority, etc.. These groups have websites >where you log on and sign a "petition" which they will then make >sure is put to good use, usually printed out and delivered to >political representatives. Also, the excerpt below from the excellent >website you mention describes another example of how a good email >petition drive really can work. Annie The U.S. Public Interest Research Group (U.S. PIRG) uses e-mail >to rally support for its Arctic wilderness campaign. The effort aims >to prevent oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, >which the group claims is the only area along Alaska's north slope >not open for oil and gas drilling. By urging university students to >e-mail British Petroleum, ARCO and Chevron (Exxon, as far as U.S. >PIRG can tell, has no public e-mail address) and ask them to cancel >their drilling plans, the group has sparked three separate waves of >e-mail protest. >"We got their attention and held it," says Athan Manuel, director of >the campaign. A month after the first Arctic action day, the group >got a call from BP, its biggest target, he says. "We've met with >them three or four times now, and each time, we met with someone >more and more senior -- the last meeting was even with someone who >was British! That was a first." >This is bogus and has been circulating for more than 5 years. > >Like most e-petitions it just wastes effort, time and server space, >for several reasons, not least being that the e-mail address to which >you're supposed to send petitions to has been closed down for years. > >For more details about what's screwed up with this petition and the >concept of e-petitions, check this Web page: > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 08:40:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Announcing SIDEREALITY: A JOURNAL OF SPECULATIVE & EXPERIMENTAL POETRY MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/3/02 10:16:17 PM, managingeditor@SIDEREALITY.COM writes: << Dear Poetry Readers: The first issue (March-April, 2002) of SIDEREALITY: A JOURNAL OF SPECULATIVE & EXPERIMENTAL POETRY (http://www.sidereality.com), a new bimonthly poetry webzine, is being released today. >> I just stopped in, quickly, before heading to work. This is worth a look. William Allegrezza's first piece, "having release" seems a good one. I don't know how experimental it is, but it's certainly well crafted with a surface and an underneath. And a stunning closing image. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:37:53 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: French trans. of Leaves of Grass Comments: To: wwhitman@waltwhitmancenter.org, whpoets@dept.english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Friends, I recently received a letter from a French editor and publisher of Editions Gallimard/Poesie Gallimard asking me for assistance with a new translation of the 1892 edition of Leaves of Grass. This "new and brilliant" translation is by French poet Jacques Darras. They are looking for financial support in order to "make the volume more easily accessible to young buyers". What I am asking is if folks on the list could forward this notice to the French departments and/or scholars at the university where you are employed, or anyone who might be able or intesested in supporting, or at least exploring this project. Thank you in advance, Alicia Askenase Literary Director Walt Whitman Art Center Johnson Park 2nd and Cooper Streets Camden, NJ 08102 856-964-8300 wwhitman@waltwhitmancenter.org www.waltwhitmancenter.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:48:41 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: Lorenzo Thomas pamphlet Comments: To: whpoets@dept.english.upenn.edu, wwhitman@waltwhitmancenter.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Walt Whitman Art Center announces the first of its Whitman Notable pamphlet series: MAGNETIC CHARMS by LORENZO THOMAS published & edited by David Kirschenbaum Boog Literature 20 page stapled pamphlet $5 signed $3 unsigned plus $.50 shipping and "handling" call 856-964-8300 for credit card orders or send check or money order payable to: Walt Whitman Art Center Johnson Park 2nd and Cooper Streets Camden, NJ 08102 The pamphlet contains poems from Lorenzo Thomas' February 1, 2002 reading at the WWArt Center from MAGNETIC CHARMS Multicultural Watch who ends up in contestant's row I like it when the colored people win It always was all women years ago Once in awhile maybe a young Marine LCpl in dress uniform Every other word he said was "sir" Probably a newlywed on top of that You know he's going to win a car Or bedroom suite Not that the game is fixed but to be fair I'm sure someone at CBS Made lots of money figuring this out Before I did The way they've got it now All kinds of people get to come on down Ok by me. But yet and still I like it when the colored people win ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 09:43:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020303201616.00a1bc90@mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" clearly though, this question of "working class" or (as in my case too) poverty class (and working class is, or used to be, that much *closer* to same, no?---felt that way to yours truly, and i ended up there for years as a result of factory lay-offs) touches a nerve, judging by the outpouring of posts on this issue... i would say said nerve is an experiential one, having to do (for a change, and thankfully) with poets/writers discussing their bread-earning locations and histories... some consider this vulgar, i consider it vital... poets generally tend *not* to talk about same, as (for one) their writings (as all of us know) all too often work at some remove from the question of wage (or to put it another way: your poem ain't likely to be optioned anytime soon, cultural/symbolic capital aside)... now of course one can "imagine" any number of experiential realities---you needn't be a person of color to write about people of color, you needn't be a woman to write about women---but empirically speaking, i note that much of the upper-middle class is mum e.g. as to entitlements... whereas one of the working-class attributes i most cherish is/was the capacity for discussing cold hard cash, and realities attending thereto... at least, in those working-class communities i was raised in---yknow, the old postwar blue collar 3 bdrm house communities, rapidly receding (here in the u.s., at least), about which i feel a profound ambivalence, i should say (just to shorthand what would otherwise be a 100kb post)... so we have, at the very least, an art-experience divide, and a permeable one... and judging by the number of poems submitted to me by students (e.g.) who are NOT of the working class, and who make all sortsa assumptions about travel and the like (e.g., many of my 20-year old poets talk about their trips to europe in their poems... huh?... trips to WHERE?), there is certainly something of a (tacit) cross-pollination taking place in class terms between experience and art (i.e., in this case, the new middleclass wanderjahr)... and not only students neither... here's an interesting tidbit: one of my favorite poets and pals here in town, jack collom, worked (as some of you know) for 20 years in factories of one sort or another, on the hourly scale... now, both of my parents were factory workers---but me, i've only ever worked in a factory (summer employment aside) as a white-collar (salary) engineer... jack tells me that his parents both held college degrees (well, my mom was enrolled in u of grenoble prior to the war breaking out, and my dad, a one-time shop steward, finished his high school postwar with my mom's help)... interestingly, when we've talked labor issues, i tend to hold (i think it's fair to say) to a somewhat more strident collective bargaining (prole?) line (though jack isn't against unions, either, he's just had more experience first-hand with union abuses... of course i've had in my case---as a white collar worker---to drive through picket lines with union guys pounding on the hood of my car, some of which guys came from my neighborhood and never experienced the poverty i experienced... and i've dealt as a construction manager with more trade union corruption than i can detail here... for another time perhaps)... then of course there's the movement at e.g. boeing to unionize "professional" workers (i'm only using the quotes b/c i don't wish to denigrate "non-professional" folks)... and the perpetual talk of unionizing the professoriat, private institutions incl. (which i for one am entirely in favor of)... anyway... here's an assertion: i'm pretty sure i know when i'm talking to someone for whom (you will pardon the essentialist cant) a buck is a buck... but it's not always clear how said experiential datum (if you will) figures into one's work... still, talk of workplace, labor, and (if i may, a hidden but no less vital variable here, given current publishing realities) manufacturing underwrites or counterpoints much of the chatter i hear about what a poem (or broadly, writing) is "supposed" to do... and if adjunct labor and office work provides us with a more topical grasp of "working class" (quotes again)---certainly the demographic is widespread and will in time be wide-spread-er as far as office work goes---then i would say, for one, the absence of collective bargaining in so many of these latter workaday communities suggests that the new working classes in the u.s. look to be something of a different beast altogether... thanx to all for the discussion... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:15:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Fwd: Re: a working-class poet is something to be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" well i feel obliged to add this to my last post: the ideological realities of the u.s. and elsewhere might be such that they rely on damaging stereotypes, which such & so people then feel obliged to 'live up to'... this argument gets made all the time in discussions of race and ethnicity... e.g., in terms of class, if working class = brash, then i might feel obliged to act brashly... but this view negates for me a certain level of agency... i.e., my brashness may not be any more or less "natural" than the absence of same, may in fact constitute something of a survival strategy of its own accord, and not something 'contained by' superstructure as such... now how and why and to what ends one may elect to represent such experiences/behaviors/what have you in one's work---even whether representation is the point here (i.e., in light of the entire range of possible aesthetic responses, incl. the so-called non-representational)---well, even to ask this question may be to presume that, aside from matters of sheer expressiveness and the desire thereof, art (term used advisedly) has something to do with social or communal efficacy... changing the conditions of labor (read as injustice) through textual awareness?... if this isn't too agitprop a way of putting things... sometimes, i might add, i imagine mself as contributing to such changes, idealist (or social realist?) that i am... of course it's difficult to imagine that art can resist or effect or even react with any demonstrable efficacy to something as broad as the social when one's work is (imagined to be) read by, say, a dozen people... such singularities (if you will) seem somewhat displaced by the symptomatic pulls and pushes of kultur (incl. my dear old pop culture)... so to argue somewhat against the grain of those smaller currents of production and consumption that i so value and so believe in and so put a measure of faith in (b/c i feel like being brash at the moment): if one's reading public is a dozen people, what does this say about the possibilities of the/a public sphere?... and i trust this question doesn't land us too far afield of class issues per se... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 09:26:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: megan minka lola camille roy Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality count!) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde pursues radical invention, > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space cleared, with fierce frequency, by > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the mainstream not because you > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've never inherited a penny." > (magee) Hey this is true enough as a statement about white american poets but breaks down internationally and racially. E.g. here in san francisco there has been a very queer spoken word scene that is working class and white. Not much interest in theory. the (white) working class dyke scene in my experience is suspicious of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one itty-bitty presentation with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle a woman I actually know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were you talking about!!?! Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts have been putting together a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical experimentation ELSEWHERE. Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. This is one hell of rich vein of experimental work!! It just does not follow the paradigm of white trust fund babies toying with abstraction. WHY. Perhaps it's a political problem, not a literary one. There's been a lot of anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work (e.g. Said) which has been hella useful to people coming to consciousness about the political forces that locate them in their lives. The white (american) working class has not been gotten such persuasive and transformative analyses. WHY NOT. camille roy -- http://www.grin.net/~minka "If this is going to be a calm equality, there will be no people." (L. Scalapino) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:14:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Subject: berkson readings (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2002 10:17:21 -0800 From: Bill Berkson Bill Berkson East Coast Readings March 2002 The Kelly Writer's House University of Pennsylvania Philadelphia, PA conversation with Trevor Winklfield March 27, 4:30 p.m. Temple University Center City Philadelphia, PA March 27, 8 p.m. Poetry City Teachers & Writers Collaborative 5 Union Square West New York March 28, 7:30 p.m. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:30:48 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AERIALEDGE@AOL.COM Subject: Heather Fuller / Juliana Spahr @ Bridge Street Sunday March 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sunday March 10 @ 7 PM A reading and publication celebration for Heather Fuller _Dovecote_ (Edge) & Juliana Spahr _Fuck You -- Aloha -- I Love You_ (Wesleyan) Bridge Street is pleased to present two of today's most exciting experimental writers. There's steam coming off both these books. Don't miss it. Bridge Street Books 2814 Pennsylvania Ave NW Washington, DC ph 202 965 5200 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:11:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hello everyone, I really appreciate Dodie Bellamy's very lucid response of Fri 3/1 to this discussion. I wanted to add to her comments that I think class origin is not only something that can be "rid of" during one lifetime, but also something that plays out over multiple generations. I've heard things from people of many different class origins that make me think this is true. Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:00:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Well, I would argue that the new proles, to be distinguished from the proletariat, are the replaceable or unnecessary knowledge workers. I am separating proles from the other classes by knowledge and "awareness" or perhaps affection for culture. The new working class is pretty much the old working class, as previously noted -- though there are fewer workers who do not use computers: lan tech a might be a middle class knowledge worker writing genre fiction as a hobby lan tech b might be a prole concerned with this afternoon's sandwich lan tech c's parents worked in factories in Asia, and is finishing grad school at night and lan tech d might be a poet with "a day job in high tech" the job is the same; like the disappearance of inherited money or just money as a marker, job description / collar color is disappearing as a marker of class -- though I consider corporate and academic dress codes to be class-based sumptuary laws; community college adjuncts are unionized here -- I would argue that this does not make them working class (although I do think most knowledge workers should unionize). I am confident the lan techs would not present comparable writing. Some experiences or ways of experience have qualities which elude classification. I think that it is interesting that formalist Paul Fussell created his social class quiz around cultural markers, and it is these that cheat the quiz. Weren't Percy Bysshe Shelley's poetics political, and tied to Mary Shelley's father's ideas about social welfare? Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly@pacbell.net ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:30:33 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: info please -- Fred Moten MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Looking for an email or phone number for Fred Moten. B/c of course. Thank you Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:04:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: class romance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Oh but Kasey my dear! I would also watch the romanticization in the other direction. Certainly esoteric knowledge of life and how to live it well has been held and transmitted by people of all sorts throughout time. With much respect, Elizabeth >The recent economy has been so porous and unstable that it points up a very >important fact: there's nothing inherently noble or decent about being >working-class (in case anyone was still suffering under that romantic >delusion), since many of the new rich are former working-class, and many of >the important cultural textures that are disappearing from our lives are >centuries-old bourgeois and aristocratic inventions: manners, taste, >discretion, sentiment, etc. These things are important not because they're >essential qualities on some transcendent plane; obviously they have been >and >continue to be some of the most insidious ideological tools employed to >maintain oppressive divisions, etc. Rather, they are quite simply the best >constructs we know that are occasionally capable of forestalling violence, >instilling tolerance, enriching life experience, and all that good stuff. Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 13:31:54 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> Bill, I think you nailed here a very important question. Your post points to the most serious problem with LangPo: it was good at reflective tactics at best. Since its concern is with language itself, there obviously can be no escape plan. A true postmodernist would not touch one with a lightning rod, right? Them ideas are dangerous, and ideologies are rotten altogether. Modernists, supposedly, compromised any possibility of an escape plan by: a) being overly enthusiastic about industrial/social revolution; and/or by b) mixing up with the totalitatian crowd (fascists/communists, etc). Well, so the thinking went, at least mine, for awhile. But for me, personally, as I am sure, for you, Bill, this line of thought looks more and more problematic. One Modernist/Avant-Gardist I find the most relevent to this discussion is Velimir Khlebnikov. He towers over the late 20-century avant-garde, and dwarfs it, too. Khlebnikov's ability to fuse radical textual politics with ability to be prophetic in his outcry against upcoming dehumanization of the 20 c. (in his earliest writing, before 1910), and his constructive outlook contrasts sharply with Langpo's separation of radical formalism from human self. Only now we are catching up with his "utopian" eurasian and terrian ideas. And reading Khlebnikov, I realized something else: WE, THE POETS OF THE 21 CENTURY ARE NOT POST-ANYTHING, either modernist, postmodernist, or langpo (i am post-myparents, and you are post-your's, so what?). It's a clean slate. We should not be afraid of bigger ideas, and human self is not leaving any time soon. We should be dreaming bigger human dreams, not robot protocols. Marxism, Derrida and the rest of the 20c. cannon goes back to the library. Theory should put a helmet on and go back to the drawing board. The sign is going up: THIS AGE IS UNDER CONSRUCTION. As for the whole misguided working-class poet discussion: ff we get back to the spirit of humanity, if we concern ourselves about how to better integrate our alien civilization with this planet, absurdity of our drive to check out each other's proletarian credentials will become obvious. Best, Igor Satanovsky ________ And ideology is, of course, the problem. When has the working class, however current their characterization, not been at the mercy of ideologues? Putting aside for the moment that mimetic gestures are possible only as semiotic play, the notion that all "representational" language serves corportate/capitalist agendas is itself suspect. On the one hand, we understand how bombarded we are by information controlled and delivered by corporate agencies. A good chunk of the language has most certainly been co-opted by commercial interests. But does the avant-garde as it is lately understood, i.e., as radical formalism, constitute a serious reaction to dehumanization, an escape plan, or does it merely reinforce the bars? The technology required for much avant-garde production is corporate initiated and owned, and is well situated within the monied class. So if the argument against representation includes some notion of dispensing with the tools of capitalism, e.g., the self, mimetic language, etc., then we may be in an even worse fix if we exchange those "traditions" for an artistic technocracy. In such a case artists may become less and less relevant, if that's possible. Is there much difference between a conventional love poem's resting upon a bourgeois/romantic idea of self cum dust bowl idealization, and any "avant-garde" production that reminds us up front of the textualized self in a room full of working class computer drones? Is it possible that corporate dominion might actually prefer the latter? Surely we are all familiar with the capitalist mindset that swallows everything with a shrug, with a "I don't know what it means, but I can buy and sell it." That mindset, it seems, fears only those things it finds meaningful, the challenge it understands. I don't know the answers, of course. But it does seem common sensical that if we care for the exploited, we'll want to communicate with them, and with ourselves since most of us are exploited. That means going to them, and in a language they understand, without sacrificing formal integrity. A tall order. But I do consider that is how the future calls to us. Ideologies are certainly interesting, usually dangerous. But perhaps we have forgotten, those among us who feel utterly isolated and "meaningless," that people are more important than art. Best, Bill ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 20:48:56 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Lit City reading during AWP Conference MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii ---------------------------------- * L * I * T * * * C * I * T * Y * ---------------------------------- presents An Evening of Poetry coinciding with the AWP Conference in New Orleans St. Mark's of the Vieux Carre 1130 N. Rampart St. (@ Gov. Nicholls) Saturday, March 9 Doors open at 8:00 pm, reading begins at 8:30 Admission: $3 - $9 sliding scale ***featuring*** Andrei Codrescu Joel Dailey Michael Tod Edgerton Tonya Foster Arielle Greenberg Pierre Joris Claudia Keelan Bill Lavender Camille Martin Sarah Mangold Jena Osman Donald Revell Cole Swensen Rachel Zucker Lit City is a 501 (c)(3) non-profit organization. All donations are tax deductible. For more information on how to contribute or volunteer, or to learn about upcoming events, please visit us at http://www.litcity.net or e-mail tod@litcity.net. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 05:54:52 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: with apologies Comments: To: webartery@yahoogroups.com, POETRYETC@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, wr-eye-tings Comments: cc: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT apologies to all I may inadvertently sent a virus attachment, but this time the content sent was of some meaning to some and ironically I have received some requests for help so the 'virus' has had some beneficial effects for some people, so put that in your pipe, silly childish virus makers - you did some good. I've also decided to turn it into a work of art, somewhat in the spirit of litter or trashcan art, in honor of my great aunts roommate, Amy. First draft included at the end of this post. Once again, apologies all. Also, please excuse cross-posting. Collaborators welcome. tom >Viral Stress experience greater emotional stress in response to pain than healthy people. >experience greater emotional stress experience greater emotional stressstresssserts Stimulus to strike back or give up or impel me to create > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 00:06:07 -0800 Reply-To: yan@pobox.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: matvei yankelevich Subject: Speech Acts--unbelievable acts of poetry+Charles Bernstein panel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii SPEECH ACTS (poetry as performative utterance) tuesday . March 5th . 7pm . free and open to the public (refreshments, gallery walk, & pre-show clowning w/ Filip Marinovic at 6:30) @ The Educational Alliance 197 East Broadway (Lower East Side, NYC) BILL LUOMA tara rebele THE YOGURT BOYS wanda phipps, joel schlemowitz, marc sloan EDWIN TORRES eugene ostashevsky DAVID SHAPIRO and james hoff + panel discussion with CHARLES BERNSTEIN and Q&A with the performers SPEECH ACTS is AN EVENING OF POETRY IN PERFORMANCE in a beautiful, historic 250 seat theater on the Lower East Side curated by Matvei Yankelevich (ugly duckling presse) for MAGNITUDE an exhibit of POETRY:SCULPTURE collaboration runs through March 27th at Educational Alliance call the educational alliance 212-780-2300 x 378 for info The EDUCATIONAL ALLIANCE is located at 197 East Broadway. Take F to East Broadway and exit to East Broadway & Rutgers St, walk two short blocks, if you pass the 169 Bar on your right, you're almost there. www.uglyducklingpresse.org --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - Sign up for Fantasy Baseball ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:13:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: for John Wieners MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For John Wieners exit into the DAY blue on green on blue with each hour watching intently for signs embroidery in embroideries scenes calmatives gyring hawks through sky vineyards locusts leaves spreading for the day as we do get there exiting into night's day Gerald Schwartz ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:02:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Is that your final answer? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Scene: Fast food drive-thru. RITA [From speaker]: I am Living Water, a submissive woman. Order on-line ... release your pain ... I am the message that Christ's come again. LEONARD [Loudly, leaning out car window, into intercom mic]: Uhhh, can I get two double-decker supremes, a chicken chalupa-wrap, a, uh nacho cheeseburger, uh, the uh, and, uh - what do you guys want to drink? RITA [Speaker noise]: I am the water that quenches your thirst, I am the last, I was the first. I am one with what the tree vole drinks. LEONARD [Snorts]: ... I am Big Water, Big Water is me! RITA [Encouraged]: I am the ocean, the lake, the river, pond and creek. I am the mountains, the valleys, the desert and the trees. I am Earth ... LEONARD: ... Ich bin der Dreck unter deinen Walzen, Ich bin dein geheimer Schmutz und verlorenes Metallgeld, Ich bin deine Ritze, Ich bin ... RITA: Air I am. Fire I am. Water, Earth and Spirit I am. Breeze I am. Sun I am. Brook, Mountain and Goddess ... CHORUS OF AUTOMOBILES: Honk Honk! HONNNK! LEONARD [Forcefully, into intercom mic]: You are my licorice. I am your dandelion; you are my first wish. I am your water wings; you are my deep. I am your open arms; you are my running leap. I am the house that protects you I am the car that takes you places I am the water that you drink I am the food that you eat I am the pencil that you write -- RITA [Speaker noise]: My name is Orianna. I am a rainbow goddess. I am water, gas and sunshine. I live in the clouds. I make rainbows. I feel happy because I'm making other kids ... oh, wait, no [Sudden shame.] ... pride ... ohhh ... pride ... my scalp ... begins to tighten, I thirst, I thirst! [Curtain.] *** FIRST ANNUAL FLARF FESTIVAL *** FIRST ANNUAL FLARF FESTIVAL *** TUESDAY, MARCH 5, 8:00 p.m. FLYING SAUCER CAFE 494 ATLANTIC AVENUE (BTWN 3rd & NEVINS) HOW TO GET THERE: 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or D or Q to the Atlantic Subway stop and walk underground to the Pacific Street exit (at the N or R or M Pacific Street Stop) or take the B or N or R or M - in any case, go out the Pacific Street Exit (right exit), take a right - at the end of the block you will be on Atlantic Ave. Take a left on Atlantic, and about two and a half blocks down, between Third and Nevins, you will find the Flying Saucer Cafe _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 00:53:04 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Nonsense. What you call theocratic fascism is another "spear" in the world-wide class struggle and the Other is now not Mao Tse Tung etc but the El Qaeda and others in Palestine or South America taking on the immense and terrible force of the US Military that the American people havent it seems the courage to protest against. And its poets are weak-minded: no leadership there... And those forces, and they are never "unflawed", are proving just now - 9 US dead 40 wounded - that "revolution is not a tea party". I think you've gone soft. The 70s may have been a giggle for you with your drugs - I was there too but I was opposed to illegal drugs (still am) wheras one of the major reasons the US is in Afghanistan is to free up the drug money - but there are people suffering throughout the world because of the continous (since the Second WW) incursions and military operations by the West and in particular the US Imperialists: the globalisation movement needs to link up with more radical Moslems etc and others with the courage to take action against capitalism and its corruption: and the present hysteria generated by the Republicans and extreme right wing elements who are slowly moving the US toward being the biggest terrorist nation on the Earth: probably now the most (rightly) hated nation with its hypocritical talk of democracy (when they always back the most undemocratic regimes).Soon your "rights" will be only for people with big money...if that isnt the case already. If you cant tolerate other countries with their own religions or theocracy that is intolerance and racialism: the US needs urgently to pull out of all countries outside its own borders. that way it might survive but it is now on the bieginning of the doom predicted by Mao tse Tung: stewing in its own corruption, violence, and greed and its exploitaion and brutality to other nations while the rich "middle class" in the West are on a pigs back. Get real. Leave other people alone! Let them find there own way. Keep out America! Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Silliman" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 10:06 AM Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER > This sounds so much like the "good old days" circa 1970 when I (ever so > briefly) lived in Buffalo during the height of Vietnam War // Kent State > shooting paranoia. We went over the border (not to give readings, but just > to go to Toronto or the beach) several times and were pulled over and > harrassed every single time (hubcaps taken off the car to see where the > drugs & guns might be, that sort of thing). It got to be a running joke. I > remember once coming back with Alan Feldman, we began giggling in > anticipation about 15 minutes north of the crossing point and were in such > hysterics that Alan told the guard "I sure hope you can find our dope, > because we can't find it anywhere"). Got searched that time too. > > & since Rae has invoked my name on the working class stuff, it's true. I > think the question of class background, class orientation and class stance > (three very different things) has to be asked in all cases & that the > question of "what is the working class" circa 2002 is likewise very big. > Negri and Hardt are not the best thinkers on this (or most other) issues. I > do think that working with labor unions (for example) is totally good work, > but the idea that it is anything other than trying to solve a beheading with > bandaids is simply nostalgia. The underlying problem is that at this moment > in history capitalism has lost its Other and what comes closest, alas, is > theocratic fascism. The anti-globalism movement, taken as a whole, is > frankly not promising, though it is within that coalition that answers will > have to be found. > > > Ron Silliman > ron.silliman@gte.net > rsillima@hotmail.com > > DO NOT RESPOND to > Tottels@Hotmail.com > It is for listservs only. > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:51:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson wrote: > Hello everyone, I really appreciate Dodie Bellamy's > very lucid response of > Fri 3/1 to this discussion. I wanted to add to her > comments that I think > class origin is not only something that can be "rid > of" during one lifetime, > but also something that plays out over multiple > generations. I've heard > things from people of many different class origins > that make me think this > is true. > Very interesting discussion. A couple comments, neither of which are meant to take away in ANY WAY from the genuine and totally neccessary work of working class poets (someone said that class is the invisible oppressor in this country, that even more than race or gender, we are still very much in denial about it and all its ramifications, and I think this may be true, at least in art...): 1) I find it funny/odd/problematic/cool that there seems to be a trend of poets listing all their "working class" jobs in their bio notes when they are published in Big Journals: "Poet X has worked as a dishwasher, ditch digger, welder, etc. and is now teaching at X University." Has anyone else noticed this "trend"? And isn't this true for many of us who are middle-class? I, for instance, worked as a cashier, nanny, data entry clerk, etc. And yes, this informs my poetics, certainly, but what is to be gained/lossed from mentioning it, since I now have health care and an academic (non-secure) job? 2) Not to cop any pity or anything, but I am wondering if anyone else feels, along the lines of what Elizabeth was saying about generational class fallout, the pressures of a working class mentality on their middle class lives. I am fourth generation American, but my Jewish family, which has been middle class for at least two generations (my grandparents worked and GI'ed their way thru college), still acts out working class anxieties. My father is a college professor, but my parents bought generic brand food, never went out to eat, yelled at us for leaving the fridge door open, etc.--it's like no matter how "comfortable" we actually were, we couldn't act like it. I am sure that after a certain point in my childhood, we were never really living paycheck to paycheck (although it was scary when my dad was denied tenure for the first time), but my parents sure made it seem like we did, and I grew up highly anxious about money and never feeling like I had anything in common with the kids in my (upper-middle-class) neighborhood, whose jeans were Jordache, not Salvation Army or Sears like mine. I feel like this was an ethnic thing, too, although all my Jewish friends definitely had the designer jeans (genes?). Just complicating an already complicated issue, cheerfully! (Please don't flame me...I have the flu and can't bear it right now...) Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:31:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 For some years, I followed a practice of posting poems that had been rejected by magazines in other magazines -- There was that one delightful time, too, when the editor of a magazine came up to me at a reading to tell me how much she loved one of the poems I'd read and to ask me to let her publish it. I didn't remind her that she'd rejected the same poem two years earlier. Back in the 70s, Coach House Press published an anthology containing one poem by each poet whose book ms. they'd been unable to publish. It was a quite good book if memory serves. I've found that my work does get out eventually, but it sure tends to accumulate in the mean time, and it is such a mean time . . . <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell Her -- the page I never wrote! Tell Her, I only said -- the Syntax -- And left the Verb and the Pronoun -- out! --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 22:05:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Of Coin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Of Coin On a phenomenological level, we live within the horizon of universal caus- ation, stochastic phenomena notwithstanding. Origins are given as such because they appear determined; the truth of the matter, however - the _truth of matter_ - is that causation is problematic; as cosmology app- roaches t(0), it becomes more and more dubious - paralleling the breakdown of spacetime in the small. Our worlds, perceptions, are residues at best. We shall find nothing at the origin, no function, null - not even annihil- ation. We live within the horizon of universal apocalypse, local organization notwithstanding. Azure and I cuddle together; we are co-dependent, having these few moments before worlds collapse. The imminent destruction of life is close to certain; a decade seems a stretch. Humans were given the seed of catastrophe in the very possibility of nuclear and biochemical physics. We grasp each other furiously, our eyes not yet blanked out. We live with- in the residues, find nothing at infinity, no function, null - not even annihilation. because they appear determined; the truth of the matter, however - the:a- tion, stochastic phenomena notwithstanding. Origins are given as such:On a phenomenological level, we live within the horizon of universal caus-:We shall find nothing at the origin, no function, null - not even annihil-:i- mminent destruction of life is close to certain; a decade seems a Your terrorism of spacetime in the small. Our worlds, perceptions, are residues at best. is towards my casualties co-dependent, having these few moments before worlds collapse. The _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 15:22:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: laurie macrae Subject: John Wiener and the Working Class poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John Wiener though. Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be addressing a private spectre, and we all felt privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private transaction. Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the working class intellectual. This person was self-educated with the help of the public library and the numerous public offerings available then through labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. This was the era of memorization in school too, and my parents learned many, many poems by heart while they were still in school. Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message of the poem,it loses some of it's power. You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel Linsay,but there was and there remains a class-consciousness in it that moved working men and women of my parents generation, and made them believe that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his work, sometimes, for dinner. I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about "working class poets" these last few days. It appears that this predominantly academic list really believes that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, the working class guy who wanted to play the violin but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class perspective,is always accessable. I read him first without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I undertook to learn about it because of him. I still think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or later he will give us the last word here. Laurie Macrae __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 16:35:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: * Ed FRIEDMAN & Ange MLINKO, Thurs March 7, 7:30 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives presents: An evening reading with ED FRIEDMAN & ANGE MLINKO Thursday March 7, 7:30 pm, $7 donation @ The Unitarian Center 1187 Franklin (at Geary) ED FRIEDMAN has three new publications out this past year--Away, a limited edition collaboration with visual artist Robert Kushner (Granary Books), Drive Through the Blue Cylinders (Hanging Loose), and The Funeral Journal (Jensen/Daniels), which is a section from Space Stations, a journal he's been writing since 1979. Re his earlier book Mao & Matisse, Murat Nemet-Nejat noted a poetry "exquisitely attuned to this historical moment. Its texture embodies the cultural minutiae of its time and its issues. Its easy transparence crackles with them." Ed Friedman grew up in Los Angeles, and he lives in New York City, where he's Director of The Poetry Project at St. Marks Church. Mao & Matisse Matisse was no hedonist. He articulated ideas with pleasure. Same with Mao, only he had a Long March. Since he couldn't afford new fruit each day for his still life Matisse painted in a studio with no heat and the windows open. The point being what? Two legends of the 20th century having almost nothing to do with each other. One can shape a revolution for several billion people that in a million tangible ways each day makes life better. Or you can paint paintings, some good, some bad and some great, that when people see them they'll remember that life is terrific to look at and re-invent in each moment with magnificent shape and color. Wouldn't Mao have loved an Henri Matisse there in his headquarters as he planned the final assault on Chiang Kai-shek's reactionary regime? Wouldn't Henri Matisse have reveled in the discipline of the People's Revolutionary Army? Probably not. Unless of course I was there to explain it to them. "Mao? Henri? Isn't this an inspired moment of history?" -Ed Friedman * * * ANGE MLINKO's book Matin=E9es (Zoland) was reviewed by William Corbett: "To my parent's generation a matinee meant sex in the afternoon. The sex in Matin=E9es is between Mlinko and language, and the poems are gratified like Lucky Pierre. They have that rosy look of delight; they take joy and give it. . . . Her work has two qualities that cannot be faked, a sense of humor and life itself." Ange Mlinko moved from Boston to New York City, where she edits The Poetry Project Newsletter. Immediate Orgy and Audit I turn off their songs to hear my song hearing nothing I wait, nothing rings in my answering nor a motorcycle bee do I hear, the heart, sound of action in nothingness: my direst circumstance derived from affection. All songs refigured in your likeness, odelike indigenous, a sudden use for silk but none for justice, just to suddenly flummox you into my powers ever derived from being a lover. A dire circumstance if a mouth be sickled by a kiss or hearts can stop if by crashing think of a helmet for it, using words. -Ange Mlinko THE UNITARIAN CENTER is located at 1187 Franklin Street at the corner of Geary on-street parking opens up at 7:00 pm from downtown SF, take the Geary bus to Franklin * * * Coming up: March 6 Myung Mi Kim & Geoffrey G. O'Brien March 7 Ed Friedman & Ange Mlinko March 14 Luis H. Francia March 16 Stephen Rodefer & Chris Stroffolino March 21 an evening with British poets Alan Halsey, Geraldine Monk, & Martin Corless-Smith March 23 Cecil Taylor, plus Tony Seymour & Blake More in tribute to Beat generation poet Bob Kaufman April 3 Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover April 11 Jay Wright April 18 Kevin Davies & Kevin Killian April 23 Los Delicados April 25 Kazuko Shiraishi & Wadada Leo Smith: an evening of poetry & music May 2 Murat Nemet-Nejat, an evening of contemporary Turkish poetry May 2 Student Awards Reading May 9 Bob Harrison & Andrew Levy, CRAYON reading w/ contributors: Chris Daniels (reading Fernando Pessoa), Jean Day, Hung Q. Tu, & Tsering Wangmo Dhompa Details at http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit/readings/readings.htm#current_season =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 18:04:00 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" jim behrle edits just such a journal, of rejects...md --jim maybe you cd repost the announcement? At 12:17 AM -0500 3/4/02, Millie Niss wrote: >This is brave of you, especially since said editor may be on POETICS. I got >very embarrassed when I said something about a contest I didn't win and the >director of the press sponsoring it was on the list... (and I didn't say I >should have won, I simply said something about the style of chapbook that >did win...) So I think you are brave. It would overwhelm the list and >possibly ruin it, but perhaps be a gesture of protest againsts the >difficulty of getting published in its own way, were people to >systematically post poems that were rejected from various journals. > >If the quality of the poems posted was good enogh, one could even imagine an >anthology, REJECTS, in which the poems would have headings like "Rejected by >Shiny" and then the poem's title and author. The poems would have to have >been rejected by sufficiently high quality journals to be accepted by >REJECTS, and of course REJECTS could reject poems, too-- it would be a >journal of the highest quality rejects... Then there could be an offshoot, >Rejected by REJECTS, which would be photocopied badly on yellow paper and >would accept anything which met the criteria: it would print poems that >REJECTS rejected... :-) > >Millie > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich >Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 1:30 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! > > >NUMBAH FUNKTION!: angry 4 god (an mystery play) >--------------------------------------------- > > >"They'd always go out after dark >"And make their way down to the park >"To avoid a circling shark >"Waiting for their prey > >"And one of them was on their own >"Making such a tragic sight >"Cause he cried into the empty night >"Always eating sometimes sleep" > >-"Freezing Allelova" by Burning Man > >BRITNEY SURFER BARRY >ROLFMAO LMAO MEGATRON > >BRITNEY: Applying eyeliner inside lingerie pad full of >RED X'S tampax anthrax lick envelope lick it paper cut >on creased edge your poor origami rigermarole friend >wings spread torn > >LMAO: THY NAME O GOD SHALL NOT BE TRIFLED WITH X-ist >Core dustbuster mode gone HELTER-SKELTER FOR CALVARY. >Will your offenses stop at nothing unchecked no red >stop sign no traffic SIGN BUS HEADED AT YOU BAM lying >on street. Does your evil know no limits YOU >MASOCHISTIC SICKO JACKASS SICK BASTARD ILLITERATE >MISCREANT FRIGGIN MONKEY > >Horror is here to help you > >by punishing you & most infertile beloved Britney you >chose to filch lifeguard uniform shirt off hook >ready-to-wear off the rack a rag to wrap around your >nut sack slithering from base of oak to oak to forage >acorns thinking that by eating your nuts YOU COULD SEE >GRACE SLICK > >you never hesitated at the green yellow red street >light paused transgressions RANCID RINDS and BROKEN >EGGSHELL commandment in the public square yolk > >this hatched: > >the string of ones and zeros > >you have written out ones zeros hellbent attempt to >break the god code the HOLY OFF-LIMITS NUMBAH as in >movie pi directed by Darren Aronofsky by accident or >devilment in yr GNOMISH IGNORANCE you stumbled upon >BARABBAS ROMAN NUMERAL TINDERBOX > >i c x > >1 - 100 - 10 > >the first of the GLADIATOR KEYS. Storybook pandora >the boxlid opened air filled with flying foxes. You >were graced with THE FIRST VISITATION a cold shoulder > >1-5-50-50-1-100-10 > >came on silent sabbath morning itself >day of parthenogenesis from zero hour > >asked YOUR LEFT-OVERS your UNCRUSHED PARTS >to break bread with you to eat cha ca lemongrass pho > >you missed golden opportunity SUCKAH did not eat with >1-5-50-50-1-100-10 eating outdoors in succah you could >have watched the visitor's teeth GOLD FILLINGS GNAW >MEAT from chicken bones > >someone with red x's goes inside FLYING SAUCER >ABDUCTEE but one day never again emerged from flying >saucer possessed thought you noticed something strange >about her RED X'S that day Britney your EVIL FERMENTED >DEGENERATE art not satisified with maligning chester >barry man's name you ELECTROCUTED by God's > >a chalk outline on the floor >a cover photo on The Sun in bodegas > >you are incapable of love GORY SALIVA >making public >"lick her until she begins to shudder, >& would then continue to explore the rest of her body >with yr tongue, with yr fingers" >to distract her from yr PATHETIC LIMP LEOPARD-spotted > >love one thing: yr HASTENED HEARTBEAT! His saving >BLOOD >AWAIT OUR PUNISHMENT >calico tea BLOODS RUSH FROM YR LUB-DUB-DUB >TO YR SCRAWNY LIMBS > >as if to run out onto 8th Ave. in the dark of night >past New Dragon Garden past Blah Blah past Dizzy's. >May push CLOTTED STAGNATION from your veins > >dream theater SURFER IS REAL ARYAN > > >we origami cranes shall protect your SHRIVELLED SPIRIT > > >from o flowery ROLFMAO from o meowing LMAO >from egalitarian MEGATRON watch for alligatorskin >boots >shoes a dead giveaway >nomad demons you UNLEASHED COLLARLESS outside your >window fire escape > >now in advance to be kind >decimating your peace of mind >hilarious charity so ROLFMAO LMAO >& MEGATRON will not find > >a complete person to CONSUME but a broken man a BOILER >PLATE SPECIAL the pillows are against the wall sitting >upright, legs stretched out, laptop on forelegs, jeans >undone, > >imagine a V > >just inside that, peeking out, > >they will eat the SEED YOU spill without her roaches >the SEED THAT CORRODES at a BLUNTED DEAD END > >inside li'l crane >you will little miss ANYTHING in Spanish fly >you will little miss EVERYTHING in Spanish fly >you will little miss nothing > >and Christian core guitarists grow out of yr Kleenexes >RED X'S tomorrow your long beautiful hair > >ah shoulder-length > >shaved to scalp in basement yr kinda breakfast food >NAUSEATED STOMACH KNOTTED NAUSEATED >ESOPHAGUS ACID-SCALDED chester will not leave the room >are you sorry yet do you feel bad you are bad bald new >structure? > >you masochistic sicko jackass sick bastard illiterate >miscreant friggin monkey > >dvd movies applying eyeliner water dish soap baptize >you in water x-rays intercepted by satellite dish wash >your mouth out with soap NO the chocolate has a >price a scar! one thing only will save you thigh of >baby jesus too precious too merciful vibration of >subway tracks brief description in New York Post the >next day alas your name obelus > > > o >--------------------------------------- > o | """"""""""""" >| > o | """" ^ """" >| > o | """(*)""" >| > o | /(\ >| > o | (( )) >| > | \(/ >| > o | V >| > o | / \ >| > | / \ >| > o | / \ >| > o | / \ >| > o >|____________/_________\______________| > o | >| > o >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball >http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 17:52:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: *Announcing: SHUFFLE BOIL, a magazine of poets and music Comments: To: ordet55@yahoo.com, grahhr@pacbell.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ** ANNOUNCING ** SHUFFLE BOIL, a magazine of poets and music edited by David Meltzer & Steve Dickison Issue No. 1 is now available, 48pp. + 8pp chapbook insert, saddlestapled, b&w cover-art on glossy cover stock. Published tri-annually (winter, spring, fall). =46eaturing: poets & other artists writing on music, musicians' poetry & so= ng. Clark Coolidge in conversation with classic '50s Brubeck Quartet drummer Joe Dodge (part one of a wonderfully engaged talk, drummer to drummer, on the musician's life). Wadada Leo Smith, Bill Berkson, Michael Gizzi; George Herms on Sonny Stitt in L.A.; Daniel Patrick Cassidy on Irish roots of Hipster lingo; Linda Norton on Billy Strayhorn; Etel Adnan on Fairuz and on Umm Kalthoum; Steve Lacy's "Remark"; Alastair Johnston on The Latin Side of Monk; David Meltzer on Joe Mooney, Irene Kral, Andrea Boccelli & Charlotte Church; Jack Hirschman, Joel Lewis, Natacha Nisic, Anthony Barnett; Steve Dickison on Jeanne Lee; Lorenzo Thomas on the Houston scene; Norma Cole, Alec Finlay, Ammiel Alcalay; Alan Gilbert on Up, Bustle & Out; Kevin Killian on Kylie Minogue; Horace Coleman on Arthur Prysock; Thurston Moore, Jono Schneider, Michael Rothenberg, Tosh Berman, Severo Sarduy; reading & record reviews, more. single issue: $5 postpaid (1st class domestic or foreign) SUBSCRIPTIONS: $12 ....3 issues (one year) $20.... 6 issues (two years) $50.... lifetime (what a deal) payable to: Steve Dickison 1605 Berkeley Way Berkeley CA 94703 editorial correspondence: shuffleboil@hotmail.com distribution: http://www.spdbooks.org =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 02:46:28 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lauren Luloff Subject: Re: Fw: Apartment in Brooklyn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: "elisabeth workman" >To: hello my friend beth forwarded me this email. i am searching for a place to live in new york- i have a sublet that is up march 20th. i am a painter, seriously composing gigantic works and i need a place to feel explore these works, to sleep, to eat... anyhow, please get in touch if your space is available. i'm new to the area and would love to have nice neighbors! thanks, lauren cell= 814 404 4771 or 718 388 8539 or i sometimes check email, phone is best thanks again! >Subject: Fw: Apartment in Brooklyn >Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 12:30:34 -0500 > >Lauren, > >Hello lovely paintbrush of the universe. I hope this finds you well. The >information below might be useful for you. Let me know how things are, if >you have some time. > >Big kiss-- >Beth > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Schlesinger >Sent: Sunday, March 03, 2002 12:07 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Apartment in Brooklyn > >Rishi and Luisa are in search of a single person or couple to be our >neighbor and rent a beautiful >floor-through in our house in Brooklyn. Second floor of historic >brownstone, >hardwood floors, loads >details, block from A and C trains in lovely Stuyvesant Heights. >Available >April 1(maybe sooner). > >xxoo >L >lpgiugliano@yahoo.comGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : >http://explorer.msn.com _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:08:23 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/02 4:05:50 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: >Ken. You're roght I think i much you say: but he strict definion of working > >class would actually include everyone EXCEPT people who own the meeans >of > >production. Richard, But a poet absolutely owns his or her means of production --for a "product" which essentially nobody wants. How do you deal with that? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:15:38 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/02 4:06:41 PM, tottels@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >The underlying problem is that at this moment >in history capitalism has lost its Other and what comes closest, alas, >is >theocratic fascism. A very perceptive observation. For instance, in Turkey, some people who used to be leftists before the fall of the Soviet Union have because Islamists, essentially because in the Third World it is the major organized dissent against the United States. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:27:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/02 4:08:03 PM, immerito@HOTMAIL.COM writes: >I think someone else said something similar to this in a recent post, but > >maybe what we really ought to be concerning ourselves with is not > >necessarily poetry _by_ or _about_ the working class, but _for_ the working > >class. It seems to me here Kasey is raising a point not raised before in this discussion. Is class determined by the background of the writer or whom the author is writing for or addressing. For instance, is there more of Micaelangelo's background in the Sistine Chapel or the taste of the Pope and Catholic theology? Does who writes or who pays for it which determines class? What about poetry, where essentially nobody "pays" anything? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:28:29 -0500 Reply-To: gmcvay@patriot.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>The 70s may have been a giggle for you with your drugs - I was there too but I was opposed to illegal drugs (still am)<<< Me too. I think illegal medical marijuana really sucks. If the Federal level allowed legal medical marijuana, a lot of very badly off people could be greatly helped. It would be nice if there were legal psychedelics, too, at the very least legal E, because then rave kids could be sure of what they're getting in every pill without having to send them to dancesafe.com, and for that matter, legal opiates would help users titrate the appropriate dose to maintain themselves, rather than getting a too-weak or dangerously too strong shot. It's called harm reduction, hun. The possible, here and now. Kiss kiss, Mary Jane Weed ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:40:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/02 4:18:14 PM, joe.amato@COLORADO.EDU writes: >if one's reading public is a dozen people, what does >this say about the possibilities of the/a public sphere?... and i >trust this question doesn't land us too far afield of class issues >per se... Joe, I think you are raising a crucial issue. If art (specifically poetry) is not economically viable, then how can a poem be seen as a "product" in the economic cycle? Is a poet a "producer? What is a poet's class structure, as a poet, in the cycle of production? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 20:44:01 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: class romance Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I wrote: >>The recent economy has been so porous and unstable that it points up a >>very important fact: there's nothing inherently noble or decent about >>being working-class (in case anyone was still suffering under that >>romantic delusion), since many of the new rich are former working-class, >>and many of the important cultural textures that are disappearing from our >>lives are centuries-old bourgeois and aristocratic inventions: manners, >>taste, discretion, sentiment, etc. These things are important not because >>they're essential qualities on some transcendent plane; obviously they >>have been and continue to be some of the most insidious ideological tools >>employed to maintain oppressive divisions, etc. Rather, they are quite >>simply the best constructs we know that are occasionally capable of >>forestalling violence, instilling tolerance, enriching life experience, >>and all that good stuff. And then Elizabeth wrote: >Oh but Kasey my dear! I would also watch the romanticization in the other >direction. Certainly esoteric knowledge of life and how to live it well has >been held and transmitted by people of all sorts throughout time. >With much respect, >Elizabeth Treadwell Arrr, Elizabeth me darlin'--but esoteric is the key term here. Bourgeois ethical innovations are unique in their ambitious scope and systematization. They are like very powerful vaccines made in a high-tech lab, whereas the other life-knowledge-approaches you mention are like occasionally quite effective folk remedies. What, me romanticize? It's not that there's something _inherently_ "better" about bourgeois ethics, as opposed to esoteric ethics; it's just that they have the most funding and snappiest ad campaign, and thus stand the greater chance of mass proliferation and acceptance. Unfortunately, of course, other less desirable things keep (shudder) proliferating as well and interfering with the process (sometimes inextricably mixed in with the ethics themselves). Kasey ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:52:31 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/4/02 5:24:36 PM, Isat@AOL.COM writes: << <> Bill, I think you nailed here a very important question. Your post points to the most serious problem with LangPo: it was good at reflective tactics at best. Since its concern is with language itself, there obviously can be no escape plan. A true postmodernist would not touch one with a lightning rod, right? Them ideas are dangerous, and ideologies are rotten altogether. Modernists, supposedly, compromised any possibility of an escape plan by: a) being overly enthusiastic about industrial/social revolution; and/or by b) mixing up with the totalitatian crowd (fascists/communists, etc). Well, so the thinking went, at least mine, for awhile. But for me, personally, as I am sure, for you, Bill, this line of thought looks more and more problematic. One Modernist/Avant-Gardist I find the most relevent to this discussion is Velimir Khlebnikov. He towers over the late 20-century avant-garde, and dwarfs it, too. Khlebnikov's ability to fuse radical textual politics with ability to be prophetic in his outcry against upcoming dehumanization of the 20 c. (in his earliest writing, before 1910), and his constructive outlook contrasts sharply with Langpo's separation of radical formalism from human self. Only now we are catching up with his "utopian" eurasian and terrian ideas. And reading Khlebnikov, I realized something else: WE, THE POETS OF THE 21 CENTURY ARE NOT POST-ANYTHING, either modernist, postmodernist, or langpo (i am post-myparents, and you are post-your's, so what?). It's a clean slate. We should not be afraid of bigger ideas, and human self is not leaving any time soon. We should be dreaming bigger human dreams, not robot protocols. Marxism, Derrida and the rest of the 20c. cannon goes back to the library. Theory should put a helmet on and go back to the drawing board. The sign is going up: THIS AGE IS UNDER CONSRUCTION. As for the whole misguided working-class poet discussion: ff we get back to the spirit of humanity, if we concern ourselves about how to better integrate our alien civilization with this planet, absurdity of our drive to check out each other's proletarian credentials will become obvious. Best, Igor Satanovsky ________ And ideology is, of course, the problem. When has the working class, however current their characterization, not been at the mercy of ideologues? Putting aside for the moment that mimetic gestures are possible only as semiotic play, the notion that all "representational" language serves corportate/capitalist agendas is itself suspect. On the one hand, we understand how bombarded we are by information controlled and delivered by corporate agencies. A good chunk of the language has most certainly been co-opted by commercial interests. But does the avant-garde as it is lately understood, i.e., as radical formalism, constitute a serious reaction to dehumanization, an escape plan, or does it merely reinforce the bars? The technology required for much avant-garde production is corporate initiated and owned, and is well situated within the monied class. So if the argument against representation includes some notion of dispensing with the tools of capitalism, e.g., the self, mimetic language, etc., then we may be in an even worse fix if we exchange those "traditions" for an artistic technocracy. In such a case artists may become less and less relevant, if that's possible. Is there much difference between a conventional love poem's resting upon a bourgeois/romantic idea of self cum dust bowl idealization, and any "avant-garde" production that reminds us up front of the textualized self in a room full of working class computer drones? Is it possible that corporate dominion might actually prefer the latter? Surely we are all familiar with the capitalist mindset that swallows everything with a shrug, with a "I don't know what it means, but I can buy and sell it." That mindset, it seems, fears only those things it finds meaningful, the challenge it understands. I don't know the answers, of course. But it does seem common sensical that if we care for the exploited, we'll want to communicate with them, and with ourselves since most of us are exploited. That means going to them, and in a language they understand, without sacrificing formal integrity. A tall order. But I do consider that is how the future calls to us. Ideologies are certainly interesting, usually dangerous. But perhaps we have forgotten, those among us who feel utterly isolated and "meaningless," that people are more important than art. Best, Bill >> Eureka!! Someone who is on the money, uh, on point. You have my humble yay re: the post biz. To be post anything immediately references the commercial success of the prepost. Langpo was innovative "for its time", no doubt about it, a reaction to a Romanticism that had once again become slushy, though we all know the strategy is an old one. And there has often obtained a link, however firm or tenuous, given this or that geographic and/or chronological contextualization, between the avant-garde and the totalitarian impulse. Big time with the Italian Futurists, for example. But not so with the New York School. Langpo as it is characterized in more than one supporting essay, is clearly an "other-path" around the self's limited movement through space-time, a projection of space/time itself, curved, reflexive, infinite, eternal, delimited -- absolute. But with the self's limitations goes individuality. Dispensing with the self as poetic locus reflects the co-extensive demonization of the individual, how s/he thinks, what s/he "feels," that is so pervasive in our current cultural climate. Consider, briefly, the clubbiness of so many online journals. The editorial "guidelines" are far more firmly defined then those of most "traditional" literary organs. This is precisely what the corporate bastards want, what the right wing wants -- team players, Proletariat yes men, textualizations and no voices, i.e., the masses. And we are left with little more than clonework, art that reflects our own sense of powerlessness, of meaninglessness. And that's just sad, especially in a world that is crying for self-initiated courage and intelligence. Derrida never wanted this defeat. The poetry is Derrida's own writing, a self-a-drome if there ever was one. Derrida's project was to examine language, to show us how it actually functioned, not to strip it of its most profound and brilliant creation, the self. If anything, he celebrated the self, gave us all another reason to pay tribute to it. How can anyone read The Post Card and think otherwise? How can anyone read that book and come away with a prescription to de-sensitize our texts, to replace feeling with the clever and witty. He was, and is, an arch Romantic, well aware of the tragedy Keats' nightingale signals, the ever retreating logos, center, source, "god" -- that absence which is our humanity, our comedy, our tragedy. To sidestep this is, as you say, to dream in very small quantities. I'm not sure we will never dispense with Derrida any more than with Plato and Aristotle, not because of Derrida's theory, but because of his poetry. But Derrida's theorizing follows poetry, as it should be, as he meant it to be, and not the other way around. I'm with you. Let's begin again, and again, and again. And if we must reach backwards for inspiration, well, who hasn't? And let the machines, old and new, follow us. Khlebnikov is amazing. An innovator with a loud voice. Power, baby. A Visionist! Viva the poets! Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 00:56:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Macgregor Card Subject: ANDREW MAXWELL reads in New York--Friday MAR 8, 7:30 PM Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Brooklyn Scholastic Society presents an early poetry evening in D.U.M.B.O. ---------------------------------------------- ANDREW MAXWELL Friday March 8, 7:30 @ 69 Gold Street (corner of Water) D.U.M.B.O., Brooklyn *** Followed by DRINKING, MUSIC and CRACKERS in the LIBRARY *** See you there! EASY SUBWAY -take the F to York (first stop in Brooklyn) -You'll exit on Jay. Walk 2 blocks downhill, to Water St. -Hang a right, and walk two blocks to Gold St. (Corner building. 69 Gold, & Water.) Andrew Maxwell's *Radiant Species* is forthcoming from Tougher Disguises in 2002. He lives in Los Angeles, where he works as a lexicographer and curates the Dawsons reading series. He's an editor of The Germ and Double Change. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 01:33:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jonathan Skinner Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The "good old days" are still here, Ron-- when Isabelle and I drove Brian Kim Stefans and Miles Champion over the border, a couple of years back, to enjoy the more "middle class" route to the Falls (pleasant landscaped Canadian parkway, as opposed to the thruway past "working class" power plants, factories and Love Canal on the American side), we were abusively sent to customs, and our 1984 Volvo station wagon (used to haul steel for welding projects so I don't know if that's "working class" or "middle class") virtually dismantled. At one point, I see the customs agent pull out a small cloth bag from the glove compartment and walk triumphantly into the one-way glassed office, cradling it in his surgically gloved hand. "Uh oh," I think, "the dope we couldn't find." (Again, I don't know whether getting high is a "working class" or an exclusively "middle class" predilection.) The agent exits smiling, after a couple of minutes, to ask Isabelle, "can you tell me, ma'am, what this is?" "Oh," she laughs, "those are bath salts; they're lovely-- would you like to smell them?" Definitely "middle class" . . . Our "working class" border agent naturally declined, and sent us on our way. Somehow, class, I suspect, mattered less, here, than the fact I was chauffeuring one Asian-American, one Brit, & one French, with New Mexico plates to boot . . . Just last week Nate Dorward, who rode down from Toronto on Greyhound ("working class" style, though his actual social provenance I am unaware of) to hear the substantially "working class" Tom Raworth (Brit poet working his US reading circuit for the rent check) read some poems-- to a bunch of "middle class" UB Poetics students (read debt-ridden TAs)-- was grilled extensively, and somewhat rudely, by the "Peace Bridge" customs agent (apparently, regardless of class), as soon as Nate avowed his reason for crossing was a "poetry reading." Perhaps, as the "good old days" keep on rolling (as in, "let's roll"), we might ask the question of borders. And why and how, and with what varying degrees of trouble, poetry crosses these . . . JS ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 23:40:53 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's interesting, disquietig, the way this topic perennially re-erupts here on the Buffalo List . . . but somewhat sad or regretable, too, how little the community has learned in the meantime, nor advanced a poetry/poetics that better reconciles these anxieties. Kathy Lou Schultz was being quite helpful and on-target by pointing toward the discussion to the HOW2 Class and Innovative Writing Forum, generously re-printed in Lipstick Eleven No. 2,--- because that collection represented the outcome of the last major eruption of excited discussion about working class/class here on the List. The most frightening self-fulfilling prophecies in that Forum that I have had to watch breathing down my neck was Catherine Rankovic's, re-printed opposite mine in Lipstick: "The working-class poet almost always ends as a writer of prose", "a lot of production of writing (as in journaling) but no publication". And the discussion of a few years ago and the current discussion are both marked by many of the same rhetorical reactions: a reversion into semi-apologetic, autobiographical, anecdotal "confessions" about one's origins; and a great deal of muddle about the terms involved . . . or what the heck anybody's talking about (further demonstration, as the former Soviets used to testify, that "capitalist" America keeps the public ignorant and unclear about ideological standards). These recurrences of the same, inconclusive melee of discussion this round make me wonder if there isn't a different, more psychological sub-stratum to it: The Return of The Repressed. Clearly, there are ways that the modes of poetry that are dominant among the School of Buffalo affiliates --- disjunctive/asyntactical, "anti-'I'", etc. --- interferes with or precludes any self-evident progress in this direction. (Otherwise, now x-many years after the previous Forum it would be easier and more readily at hand to point to examples that have reconciled these problems.) And yet, by being largely liberal/leftist, we maintain some sense of allegiance to the working class as a ~cause celebre,~ that we ~should~ be better attuned to "the working class," no matter how absurdistly contradictory the manifest evidence within the poetics itself. Is it some type of guilt (?) that here we harbor these Union politics of a collective and we oppose extreme seductions and coercions by financial power, and yet our poetry has not advanced a small step toward closing the gap between literary elitism and those unindoctrinated to poetry? The anxiety, too, is that, despite denials, clearly, treatment of class issues requires some greater recourse to "discursivity" or referentiality than the School of Buffalo is open to. The fastest way to either bridge the gap of class/ideological obliviousness or betray oneself is through some signal of ~vocabulary~ (referentiality). The alternative that I airily tried to point to in the Forum is an innovative poetry that would accentuate a labor-intensiveness in its making (...but that's aready accomplished by New Formalism). A key distinction that's being omitted so far here, I believe, is the difference between the class determinants that are imprinted upon a person, upon us, by our upbringing (the late Bourdieu's "habitus"), that is, the mark of the real, versus the chimera that self is--- and how identity, although constructed, equally draws upon *fantasia* and desire, and is not solely stamped by the effects of the real. What I mean is, regardless of the influence that actual circumstances, education, and money had on anyone's personality development, personality is just as much fed, at this point, by media. ...So that a person latches onto (cathects onto) images and representations in the media, within experience, that confirm and affirm some phantasmatic interior sense of self. Thus, the upper class girl who hands out International Socialist Organization (ISO) newspapers on street corners, or the "working class" adult (consigned to continue earning due to a doomed lack of savings/capital) whose poetry is acted out like some Sebastian Venable in a white suit (the poet hero in Tennessee William's ~Suddenly Last Summer~). You're not only where you've been and what's been done to you. Personality formation ~interprets~ the constrictions it meet. To complete the equation of the biographical that keeps coming up here, the formula should be finished: my parents came from such-and-such a background and they treated financial/work matters in such-and-such a way, ~and~ independent of that these are the works in the media, literature and the arts that I found myself responsive to and integrated. To join in on this thrilling pecadillo of talking about oneself: In high school, I began checking out of the school library record albums of classical music. But there was absolutely ~no~ classical music anywhere in my environment. At most, if people's tastes in music went between Top 40, in New Jersey, then they were fans of Broadway musicals. Wait. There was one boxed set of Reader's Digest Immortal Music that my parents must've gotten through some Book of the Month club, that no one but I ever listened to. Out of that, the old chestnut of Debussy's ~Clair de Lune~ eventually lead, once free and on my own in The Big City, to Debussy's ~Pelleas et Melissande.~ And deeper and deeper, more and more extensive investment into listening broadened into competitively sophisticated tastes: this week, Morton Feldman and Schnittke CDs; last Wednesday, a (free! for the working class) Manhattan School of Music concert of Shostakovich, this Wednesday, a ticket to hear David Daniels sing Berlioz's ~Nuits d'Ete'~ with the New York Philharmonic. But, my point: ~nothing~ in the class environment I originally grew up in determined or could have prognosticated this development. Is it innate sensitivity? Becoming a poet is quite similar. There is probably ~nowhere~ in America that the atmosphere is hospitable enough to poetry to encourage someone going into it as a central pursuit. And yet--- we've grown into this most unlikely and class-nebulous of callings. Can the absence of class/employment-identifying information in School of Buffalo be attributed to the possibility that, when we are writing poetry, we are indulging our leisure class fantasias? It's extremely unclear, almost off-limits, how better known poets survive economically, cobbling together some sort of odd conglomeration of adjunct teaching, grants, and frugality. The vagueness of the economic/class status of poet ~as an occupation/avocation,~ as opposed to, say, ballerinas or rock-&-roll, where the class connotations are definite, may have something to do with why we enter into it, and how it remains such an unresolveable topic amongst ourselves. Poetry may be a very rare case that, stereotypically, has broken with class and financial designations. Hypothesis?: We're all stepping outside of our class, no matter which class that might be, whenever we're "in poetry,"--- because poetry effectively ~has no~ class definition. (The temptation is to think of it as leisure class, . . . but to the leisure class themselves, it can still seem as roustabout as Allen Ginsberg hippydom.) One other autobiographical lapse: My brother is a magician. He broke from the different employment grooves he was, determined to make his living as a professional magician, and he's done that be it stage magician with rabbit and top hat or psychic with fortune-telling cards in a cafe. The two seem of the same world, poet and magician. To be driven to become a poet is like becoming (Carlyle) a priest, . . . or a winged horse. The only actual endeavor I find it consistently comparable to is chess, which has famous, astronomical international tournament heights and impractical park bench hobbyist lows. I guess where I've meandered here is that poetry, like few other activities, has fallen outside the class narratives of our culture. It effectively is ~not~ an option on any career counselor or high school guidance counselor's menu. It's like becoming Wiccan. profession working rich bourgeois mapping from one society __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 00:58:46 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! In-Reply-To: <200203050131.UAA09379@webmail1.cac.psu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >For some years, I followed a practice of posting poems that had been >rejected by >magazines in other magazines -- There was that one delightful time, too, when >the editor of a magazine came up to me at a reading to tell me how much she >loved one of the poems I'd read and to ask me to let her publish it. I didn't >remind her that she'd rejected the same poem two years earlier. Back in the >70s, Coach House Press published an anthology containing one poem by each poet >whose book ms. they'd been unable to publish. It was a quite good book if >memory serves. Please. It was supposed to be an anti-slushpile joke. >Aldon L. Nielsen >Kelly Professor of American Literature >The Pennsylvania State University >116 Burrowes >University Park, PA 16802-6200 > >(814) 865-0091 -- George Bowering Bigger than I was. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:33:23 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Joe. I agree with a lot you have here: but I wouldnt knock unions (I'm leaving sex out of this until the end!!)...there are corrupt unions everywhere: unions arent the answer but they have been and are or can be a major force for workers: but here in NZ when in 1973 I was in a paint factory the head of our Union (who later became very rich - he started off in working class Panmure where I am now) was the head of several others: the workers wanted better pay and safety (there is always a big danger there in a paint factory and many others)...the workers wanted these things but the Union tried to damp things down. Now that doesnt mean that the concept or even the practice of unions is finished: that's bullshit (dont worry I'm not on the attack against you and Ron I'm just on about certain sections, certain practices and certain sectors of the state,and certain things i'm "angry " about (I'm never angry really) and I can understand Ron's point of view re theocratic fascism etc but cant go into all that now)...unions still are needed to assist the wage and conditions of workers: here (probably in the US too) they've tried to smash the unions (read terrorise them so the "fat cats" get bigger profits because strikes are illegal -next they'll be using Mafia types even here- or they try to make them so...) ..but what you're saying re talking cash -hard cash - has some truth and also about openness: but we dont have to be: trapped" in a class forever: its true that _in general_ we'll detect certain falsities coming from "rich" people: but there are many good idealistic ad motivated people who are NOT from so-called working class ... read middle class and upper of the working class proper (where w/c is everyone (mostly) _not_ in ownership of the means of production)...but the truth is we need all kinds of people: in 1995 when Robert Creeley was here he lectured ( he gave a lot of readings of such as Ed Dorn, Olson, Berrigan, Wieners and others) he mentioned that Ed Dorn (sadly another one deceased fairly recently) had been very much working class and one day realised he was getting on too much for the heavy work loading trucks or whatever he was doing and then got into the academic world..another example would be Peter Reading in England.....but its a truth that somewhat there is an experiental divide: but some people are so forced down into poverty and hence into crime they seem to lose all sensiblity or conscience: but that's another complex worm can.....I could never afford to go to Europe per se (although I might have done but the kind of O.E. you refer to is out of the range of most poorer working class people..they're lucky to make one trip in their life to one country outside their own)....in fact the cultural revolution in China was in part an attempt to bridge that experiential hiatus: it doesnt matter what the motives or outcome were: that was its stated intention or the perceived concept of it....working for years in factories and so on didnt harm me and was never really hardship (as I was a young man), nor do I know if I learnt anything, or if my inability to get into a white-collar job wasnt simply a failure of nerve on my part: some so-called white collar jobs take more initiative and courage to "get into"...and so on.... but certainly it gave me some insights....but the type of poetry I like is often very "un-working class"....I get frustrated and "angry" with "difficult" writers but I prefer them to eg Bukowski or Adrian Henri, Roger McGough, Brian Patten...or more correctly, those guys are great poets but I also want to "get into" Ashbery, even Merrill, the New York poets,Wieners, various European,the Langpos, Geoffrey Hill and many others.....its not a them and us: maybe someone such as Joyce Carol Oates (an intellectual from a working class background) is thus so marvellously equipt to write her lovecraftingly crafted short stories, "You Must Remember This" _fantastically realistic_ descriptions of boxing and violence, and the almost magic-realist "BellFleur" which is a excrucialtingly brilliant: I preferred it to Marquez's 100 Years (although that was fantastic))....but maybe class background wasnt the only factor (obviously there is innate ability and so on)can be "counteractered" or even if one is "upper" so to speak one doesnt have to be a horrible person: these are generalities we are talking about. We shouldnt all get into a guilt thing: I like to think about (like everyone) where I came from etc)...but in many ways class is irrelevant to the individual (not in the _general argument_ though) .. but I have to live as myself: as a unique individual in the present: not to agonise whether class has affected me - clearly it is a big factor - but personal experiencs, my (your, our everyone's) genotype maybe just as important: will power and positive thinking is greatly self-empowering: the greatest being is she or he who can live in any circumstance and accept life as a challenge and a struggle and build on their inner strengths: without being a Buddhist (I'm not) this philosophy means that I rely on my own inner love of myself which gives me a greater capacity to love others and to work on (not maybe solve) life's problems. this doesnt mean that I am an Ayn Rand for I lean left (joke here>>).....I believe she was/is a great novelist but is rather right wing in her individulaist philosophy: but somewhat I see that as also important: its the paradox: we have free will but we are part of an historical process. We pass in and thru time. We are all descended from the Big Bang. And we are all unique: we need each other but we need to build our selves... Thoughts of some kind of a brain, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Amato" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 5:43 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > clearly though, this question of "working class" or (as in my case > too) poverty class (and working class is, or used to be, that much > *closer* to same, no?---felt that way to yours truly, and i ended up > there for years as a result of factory lay-offs) touches a nerve, > judging by the outpouring of posts on this issue... > > i would say said nerve is an experiential one, having to do (for a > change, and thankfully) with poets/writers discussing their > bread-earning locations and histories... some consider this vulgar, i > consider it vital... poets generally tend *not* to talk about same, > as (for one) their writings (as all of us know) all too often work at > some remove from the question of wage (or to put it another way: > your poem ain't likely to be optioned anytime soon, cultural/symbolic > capital aside)... > > now of course one can "imagine" any number of experiential > realities---you needn't be a person of color to write about people of > color, you needn't be a woman to write about women---but empirically > speaking, i note that much of the upper-middle class is mum e.g. as > to entitlements... whereas one of the working-class attributes i most > cherish is/was the capacity for discussing cold hard cash, and > realities attending thereto... at least, in those working-class > communities i was raised in---yknow, the old postwar blue collar 3 > bdrm house communities, rapidly receding (here in the u.s., at > least), about which i feel a profound ambivalence, i should say (just > to shorthand what would otherwise be a 100kb post)... > > so we have, at the very least, an art-experience divide, and a > permeable one... and judging by the number of poems submitted to me > by students (e.g.) who are NOT of the working class, and who make all > sortsa assumptions about travel and the like (e.g., many of my > 20-year old poets talk about their trips to europe in their poems... > huh?... trips to WHERE?), there is certainly something of a (tacit) > cross-pollination taking place in class terms between experience and > art (i.e., in this case, the new middleclass wanderjahr)... and not > only students neither... > > here's an interesting tidbit: one of my favorite poets and pals here > in town, jack collom, worked (as some of you know) for 20 years in > factories of one sort or another, on the hourly scale... now, both of > my parents were factory workers---but me, i've only ever worked in a > factory (summer employment aside) as a white-collar (salary) > engineer... jack tells me that his parents both held college degrees > (well, my mom was enrolled in u of grenoble prior to the war breaking > out, and my dad, a one-time shop steward, finished his high school > postwar with my mom's help)... interestingly, when we've talked labor > issues, i tend to hold (i think it's fair to say) to a somewhat more > strident collective bargaining (prole?) line (though jack isn't > against unions, either, he's just had more experience first-hand with > union abuses... of course i've had in my case---as a white collar > worker---to drive through picket lines with union guys pounding on > the hood of my car, some of which guys came from my neighborhood and > never experienced the poverty i experienced... and i've dealt as a > construction manager with more trade union corruption than i can > detail here... for another time perhaps)... > > then of course there's the movement at e.g. boeing to unionize > "professional" workers (i'm only using the quotes b/c i don't wish to > denigrate "non-professional" folks)... and the perpetual talk of > unionizing the professoriat, private institutions incl. (which i for > one am entirely in favor of)... > > anyway... here's an assertion: i'm pretty sure i know when i'm > talking to someone for whom (you will pardon the essentialist cant) a > buck is a buck... but it's not always clear how said experiential > datum (if you will) figures into one's work... still, talk of > workplace, labor, and (if i may, a hidden but no less vital variable > here, given current publishing realities) manufacturing underwrites > or counterpoints much of the chatter i hear about what a poem (or > broadly, writing) is "supposed" to do... and if adjunct labor and > office work provides us with a more topical grasp of "working class" > (quotes again)---certainly the demographic is widespread and will in > time be wide-spread-er as far as office work goes---then i would say, > for one, the absence of collective bargaining in so many of these > latter workaday communities suggests that the new working classes in > the u.s. look to be something of a different beast altogether... > > thanx to all for the discussion... > > best, > > joe ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: John Wiener and the Working Class poet In-Reply-To: <20020304232214.872.qmail@web11905.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed good stuff Gene At 03:22 PM 3/4/02 -0800, you wrote: >In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on >campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San >Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of >you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my >poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there >for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John >Wiener though. >Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli >Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the >event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy >handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so >vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience >response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be >addressing a private spectre, and we all felt >privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private >transaction. > >Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there >existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the >working class intellectual. This person was >self-educated with the help of the public library and >the numerous public offerings available then through >labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, >and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized >it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. >This was the era of memorization in school too, and my >parents learned many, many poems by heart while they >were still in school. >Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to >be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, >it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message >of the poem,it loses some of it's power. >You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel >Linsay,but there was and there remains a >class-consciousness in it that moved working men and >women of my parents generation, and made them believe >that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel >Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his >work, sometimes, for dinner. > I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about >"working class poets" these last few days. It appears >that this predominantly academic list really believes >that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop >writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly >victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford >Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the >beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, >the working class guy who wanted to play the violin >but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. > >The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron >Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class >perspective,is always accessable. I read him first >without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I >undertook to learn about it because of him. I still >think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or >later he will give us the last word here. >Laurie Macrae > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball >http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:14:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed i don't agree on the theocratic fascism stuff. but people are just going to have to work out the future for themselves. there are plenty of "progressive" forces around. i'm not persuaded that bush has continued mass support. Gene At 04:06 PM 3/4/02 -0500, you wrote: >This sounds so much like the "good old days" circa 1970 when I (ever so >briefly) lived in Buffalo during the height of Vietnam War // Kent State >shooting paranoia. We went over the border (not to give readings, but just >to go to Toronto or the beach) several times and were pulled over and >harrassed every single time (hubcaps taken off the car to see where the >drugs & guns might be, that sort of thing). It got to be a running joke. I >remember once coming back with Alan Feldman, we began giggling in >anticipation about 15 minutes north of the crossing point and were in such >hysterics that Alan told the guard "I sure hope you can find our dope, >because we can't find it anywhere"). Got searched that time too. > >& since Rae has invoked my name on the working class stuff, it's true. I >think the question of class background, class orientation and class stance >(three very different things) has to be asked in all cases & that the >question of "what is the working class" circa 2002 is likewise very big. >Negri and Hardt are not the best thinkers on this (or most other) issues. I >do think that working with labor unions (for example) is totally good work, >but the idea that it is anything other than trying to solve a beheading with >bandaids is simply nostalgia. The underlying problem is that at this moment >in history capitalism has lost its Other and what comes closest, alas, is >theocratic fascism. The anti-globalism movement, taken as a whole, is >frankly not promising, though it is within that coalition that answers will >have to be found. > > >Ron Silliman >ron.silliman@gte.net >rsillima@hotmail.com > >DO NOT RESPOND to >Tottels@Hotmail.com >It is for listservs only. > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 13:54:48 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: John Wiener and the Working Class poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree with you re Ron Silliman. He is a great poet and I have heard that he visited prisons and his work is (or many of its aspects) ae located in the "real". He hasnt had the last word yet though. But some of that direct, detailed and near-minute observation of his might be said to be "working class" ... but members of the working class are also often intelligent intellectuals (not cretins at all and I dont think anyone on the list thinks that working class people are).It was good that people memorised poems: I wish I could remember more: some I can. But the Langpos would be critical of the sort of pseudo-real poetry promulgated by Kipling: a lot of working class people in those days had simplistic and racialist views that "jelled" with Kipling: the guy was liked by T S Eliot who was an avid racist for god's sake! Kipling's poetry is crap!!! Garbage, bilge, sewerage, sputum. Vachel Lindsay..well ok not so bad. It is a fact that many people and especially working class people have this knowledge of poetry: trust me I move amongst them..."But it doesnt rhyme?" or "It doesnt make sense." Poetry is a high art available to the working class and everyone else on the earth but it IS a high art. It takes learning:its often hard. "God is distant, difficult" (Geoffrey Hill). The other aspect of Silliman's poetry is its "inward" and very clever intellection, its formal methodology, "radical articfice", complex structure, and complex and interesting theoretical basis. Because someone hides behind "working class" is no excuse to avoid "difficulty" or intellection: poetry is - sure, driven or based upon deep feelings in many cases or it becomes lifeless - but it is also an art: guided by intelligence and intense thought. Memorising a whole lot of bad poems IS cretinous: we who love to be surprised and challenged and puzzled or even baffled may be nervous John Wieners or confident Ezra Pounds or Insurance executives like Wallace Stevens (or his "counterpart" the milionnaire Charles Ives in music) and so on. No, R S may have the next word: I dont now who'll have the last....Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "laurie macrae" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 12:22 PM Subject: John Wiener and the Working Class poet > In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on > campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San > Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of > you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my > poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there > for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John > Wiener though. > Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli > Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the > event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy > handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so > vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience > response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be > addressing a private spectre, and we all felt > privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private > transaction. > > Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there > existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the > working class intellectual. This person was > self-educated with the help of the public library and > the numerous public offerings available then through > labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, > and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized > it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. > This was the era of memorization in school too, and my > parents learned many, many poems by heart while they > were still in school. > Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to > be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, > it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message > of the poem,it loses some of it's power. > You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel > Linsay,but there was and there remains a > class-consciousness in it that moved working men and > women of my parents generation, and made them believe > that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel > Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his > work, sometimes, for dinner. > I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about > "working class poets" these last few days. It appears > that this predominantly academic list really believes > that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop > writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly > victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford > Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the > beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, > the working class guy who wanted to play the violin > but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. > > The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron > Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class > perspective,is always accessable. I read him first > without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I > undertook to learn about it because of him. I still > think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or > later he will give us the last word here. > Laurie Macrae > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball > http://sports.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:13:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: John Wiener and the Working Class poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Like the journalists Whitman and Sandburg and others were/are, their free verse was sparse on connectives, subordinate clauses--relying instead on dramatic juxtaposition of simple sentences. As they worked, they worked it through, working it further. And the editorials of the day ran to call their work "collocations of words", "ragged lines", "imprudent affronts to the poetry-loving public", and my personal favorite, "unregulated word eruptions". Yes, the form of poetry, or seeming lack thereof, causes irritation (yes!), but the working-class content and use of vernacular grates as well. Maybe more of us are "more at home in the brickyard than on the slopes of Parnassus." Most of us now seem to be placeless, translators of the nontraditional. Rather than fixed in the order of conning Grecian urns, our lineage is fluid, nomadic, transitional. But once, at least, we were "home", and our translating powers rhizome from there, coming to be in large part from necessity, and as such, some of us find our spiritual worth in the brickyard, some in Parnassus...still more of us... as Garfield, beautiful Garfield...in the limbo of both. Gerald ----- Original Message ----- From: "laurie macrae" To: Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 6:22 PM Subject: John Wiener and the Working Class poet > In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on > campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San > Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of > you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my > poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there > for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John > Wiener though. > Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli > Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the > event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy > handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so > vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience > response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be > addressing a private spectre, and we all felt > privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private > transaction. > > Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there > existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the > working class intellectual. This person was > self-educated with the help of the public library and > the numerous public offerings available then through > labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, > and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized > it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. > This was the era of memorization in school too, and my > parents learned many, many poems by heart while they > were still in school. > Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to > be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, > it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message > of the poem,it loses some of it's power. > You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel > Linsay,but there was and there remains a > class-consciousness in it that moved working men and > women of my parents generation, and made them believe > that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel > Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his > work, sometimes, for dinner. > I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about > "working class poets" these last few days. It appears > that this predominantly academic list really believes > that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop > writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly > victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford > Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the > beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, > the working class guy who wanted to play the violin > but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. > > The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron > Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class > perspective,is always accessable. I read him first > without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I > undertook to learn about it because of him. I still > think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or > later he will give us the last word here. > Laurie Macrae > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball > http://sports.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:16:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: style, class, camille & arielle's posts Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Glad to see all this discussion tho I remain wary of email! In response to something Camille said and also what Arielle said, I just want to suggest that maybe (or maybe I just took it personally so it seems this way) that at some mid 90s point or sometime in the pop culture (and whackademic) the "white trash" model/group was like the last bastion of who it was ok to make fun of -- or analyse weirdly -- or have spreads of models dressed like as a very downhome sort of exotica. And this makes Arielle's point about how maybe class is the last most invisible untalked about thing. Or current, I don't like to say last because it implies a progress that I think limits our understanding of history. Anyway, is it ok for the editors of Vogue or some sort of pop cultural critic to use "white trash" (cf the white trash cookbook, etc, I can think of more if you can't already think of your own examples)(meaning I don't want to be toooo wordy) just because said ed or critic is themselves white? And no, I don't think so. It's an old game that's been going on since this country began and before, divide and conquer etc. CF Ron Takaki, _Iron Cages_. Anyway I also wanted to add that I have NO DOUBT that some of these issues will come up in a nonwhite vein at the Indigenous Writing Conference we are having here at SPT the first weekend in April. For example, if you go from a reservation to college what happens, if you are an urban raised native, etc, etc, all these educational and social and cultural things mixed up by movements from class to class or just plain experience, where your life takes you. Anyway. Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 06:22:00 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: trame ouest Subject: Annonce AUDIOZIE / POESI EXPRESS via Editions TRame Ouest MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit POESIE EXPRESS / AUDIOZIE PRESENTE Série 1 (octobre 2001) .COSTES le métro de la mort audiozie 01. .COURTOUX / RABU And firends post-digital music for post-digital people audiozie 02. .Arnaud ROMET pliafon/b.u.p. audiozie 03. .Charles PENNEQUIN quoi ma guerre! audiozie 04. Série 2 (mars 2002) .Charles-Mézence BRISEUL la guerre audiozie 05. .Sylvain COURTOUX travail de bande(s) 2 audiozie 06. .POTCHÜK répète audiozie 07. .Antoine DUFEU sécrétions audiozie 08. Toutes les k7's sont au prix de 4 Euros l'unité (port compris), commande(s) à adresser par chèque(s) à Sylvain Courtoux 17, rue déverrine 87000 Limoges. info: sylvaincourtoux@hotmail.com A suivre chez AudioZie: Philippe Castellin, Philippe Boisnard, Bertin/Courtoux/Romet etc. pour ses futures productions k7's, AudioZie est toujours en recherche de travaux de musiciens, poésies sonores, poésies bordéliques, lectures bordéliques ou autres (!!!) Merci aux éditions Trame Ouest. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:40:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. In-Reply-To: <20020305005137.48441.qmail@web11305.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" from Richard (thank you by the way) "but he strict definion of working class would actually include everyone EXCEPT people who own the meeans of production." from Joe (and thanks too) "clearly though, this question of "working class" or (as in my case too) poverty class (and working class is, or used to be, that much *closer* to same, no? ... i would say said nerve is an experiential one, having to do (for a change, and thankfully) with poets/writers discussing their bread-earning locations and histories" from Arielle (muchos gracias tambien) "I find it funny/odd/problematic/cool that there seems to be a trend of poets listing all their "working class" jobs in their bio notes ... the pressures of a working class mentality on their middle class lives" (and thanks, gracias, domo arigato, merci beuacoup, danke, mille grazie, tesekkurler, gratias, muito ubrigado, hvala, kiitos, mange tak, to everyone else as well (courtesy: www.logos.it/dictionary and Mr. Roboto)) Hmm, the means of production question of course -- so a question could be if a university produces anything? if so what and who does the work of production and who controls that work? (hell if I know cuz if I did I wouldn't be having aforementioned problem with security and what happens hand to mouth if I've got to give somebody like a hand.) Like poets not talking about the benjamins (or in the case of most poets, the lincolns (not the kind that competes with the Caddy -- you know?)) there's a fair bit of silence about the "work" of teaching and universities and all that (tho I know some have written about it (I've read some about it and'ld like to read more if anyone has a suggestion or two?)) I mean it's a business (duh, rumble) much like most. So as per the norm -- I'm lost as a hydrophobe in Venice. Is the division between poverty class and working class useful these days? One thing I thought that separated me from working class as I've been thinking about this over the last couple days as I'm prone or vertical to do is that I have a chance to move from the lowly position I'm in to one of relative careeric and finacial security, but so does a factory worker -- you turn your screw (make sure the first-years know a comma splice from an orange slice) for a few years, then you get to make sure other people turn their screws the right way, then you get to make sure........ I mean the fundamental problem is we've got an assload (more than a shitload (really, do the math)) of people who can't afford to live all over the world (who manage somehow anyway, cuz though we're dropping like flies, we're also living like locusts.) Poverty's the problem whether you're blue, white, red, green, black, purple, or magenta collared. I don't mean that to say that I've got it as bad as somebody working in a Nike factory at all -- I'd much rather be me (and be free to be me, but not for free -- you know?) Now is the problem capitalism and is the solution the anti-globilzation forces? Fuck if I know (see above parenthetical about how'd I'd have a job if I were smert.) I mean some of 'em seem to have their heads on good (with glue, staples, a little twine), but I just write poems. But if we're talking experiential (of which I'm a fan as Joe) how do we make enough dough to live and keep our gingerbread house in order but also fight against the need to make so much dough to live or make sure the dough is getting around and we don't have those weird bubbles under one slice so the cheese all slides off and you're just eating dough instead of the sauce and cheese and what have you. How have other people (I mean you people) done it? Is there another way to have money (not enough for goofy shirts, but enough to take a "sheila" or (what's kiwi for guy, Richard?) out to some fancy dinner (like with pate) and dancing (me, I like to salsa) and theater (I've always enjoyed odd (meaning as you like it (god, that was terrible wasn't it? (really, be honest))) productions of Shakespeare)) and time (meaning not working 40+ (you know so we can write which is what we all want to really do right?)) that isn't teaching? I find the "working class" job resume kind of funny too. It does seem a little like a mainstream punk band talking about how they have all of Minor Threat's stuff on vinyl (but not so much if it isn't punctuated by "and now works at X university with Professor Xavier") not to say that they don't and that's not a good thing, but there's an attempt to get some sort of street cred as they say. The bio thing I admire is when the bio includes an entire list of the author's educational experience -- "Blah Blah Blah started their education at St. Vinnie's daycare where s/he showed a natural proclivity for stacking blocks and then destroying the ensuing tower. From there is a was a brief stint at the Spiro Agnew Kindergarten, before launching full time into a diverse curriculum at Equator Elementary............. and received an MFA from University X (where they studied telepathy with professor X.)" My mother had a serious (still does) I'll say poverty mentality (as opposed to working class tho there's still that question about the relations between those two) as I was coming up. She'd never let the heat be set above 65 in the winter ("it's cold, mom" "put on a sweater") or let us use the air conditioning at all even though the AC was part of the appeal about the house. We got all our clothes from JC Penny, Goodwill, Sears (I still love tough skin jeans though though it's hard to fit 'em anymore (three layers of fabric on each knee? what's not to love?)) ate generic food, I was 14 when we stayed in a hotel for the first time (instead of camping or staying with someone we even distantly knew) when we traveled, we did a lot of things but mostly cuz we lived in DC and it's all free -- though we had the bucks to do more probably. My mom's family made it through the depression with money actually (bizarre, I still don't know how), but lost most/all of it after (again bizarre.) I wonder how much of that mentality is depression era as opposed to working class (that is assuming the two are opposed (I mean I know the working class was probably opposed to the whole depression thing but couldn't do much about it but starve, right?)) So I don't know. At this point I think my mom's penny pinching is mostly an odd and endearing quirk, but that's had the upside of prepping me for a life without dough and to live in a house where I don't set the heat above 60 and get lots of sweaters with strange quotations from the Goodwill. Aye caramba -- there I go babbling again......... Ken ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:53:14 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: FW: Re: a working-class poet is something to be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here is a comment on the Bill's post made by Caribbean-American poet James J= anus Henderson (reposted with his permission from the Rush-Ins e-mail list.) i.s. ______ Date: =A0 Mon, 4 Mar 2002 6:34:51 PM Eastern Standard Time From: =A0 Janus To: =A0 rush-ins@topica.com Bill (I think?) makes an important point about the working class (or=20 any other subaltern group) being at the mercy of the ideologues. But,=20 obviously the working class are not preoccupied with notions of the=20 avant garde, because that sort of navel-gazing with which the=20 intellectuals seem obsessed, would ring absurdly to someone whose=20 occupation can barely put food on the table. One needs to look no=20 further for an illustration than in American pop-culture where=20 black-urban underclass and the white-rural underclass generate the most=20 slick "tied to profit" musical "product", R&B/Hip-Hop and Country. I am reminded of the mid 1970's feud between the 2 towering caribbean=20 intellectuals, Derek Walcott and E.K. Braithwaite. Braithwaite, a poet=20 prone to using the vernacular voice, impugned Walcott for his=20 "Anglican-verse"far removed from the realities of the West-Indian poor =20 Walcott reasoned in turn that the poor would quicker relate to his=20 verse and it's Biblical rhythmns that to Braithwaite's impenetrable=20 collages, made vernacular only by the use of strategically placed=20 "aints" and "gonnas". Meanwhile, as these hyper-educated men feuded,=20 the Caribbean people went on celebrating their calypso singers as the=20 true poet laureates, blissfully unaware that these academics (Walcott by=20 then at Boston and Braithwaite back at Oxford) were racking up the=20 praise around wealthy dinner tables. All this is to say, so what. We can speak of mimesis et all forever,=20 but the bottom line is, these language games are just that, games. You=20 can speak for, about or around the guy who cuts sugarcane or drives a=20 bus all you want and then obsess over whether you have a right to do=20 that. The canecutter, the busdriver, never heard your first statement=20 or your second. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:16:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: Coordinates 2002: Indigenous Writing Now MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here's the latest info on SPT's upcoming conference... Small Press Traffic presents Friday through Sunday, April 5, 6, 7, 2002 Coordinates 2002: Indigenous Writing Now Small Press Traffic presents Coordinates 2002: Indigenous Writing Now, an exploratory conference on current practices in Native American literature(s), with Native American poets, writers and scholars representing nine Native nations: Laguna Pueblo, Navajo, Cherokee, Nez Perce, Suquamish, Mohawk, Dakota, Arapaho, and Chippewa. The roster of participants includes well established names as well as exciting newer ones. Biographies of conference participants -- Paula Gunn Allen, Esther Belin, Diane Glancy, Reid Gómez, Inés Hernández-Ávila, Cedar Sigo, James Thomas Stevens, Kimberly TallBear, Gerald Vizenor, and XCP: Cross Cultural Poetics editor Mark Nowak and SPT director Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson -- appear online at http://www.sptraffic.org/html/events/apr.html Details on conference events appear below. This conference is free and open to the public, and held at: Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at the California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) See http://www.sptraffic.org for directions, or call us for a flyer at 415-551-9278 As the latest installment of SPT’s Series X, Coordinates 2002: Indigenous Writing Now will boldly continue to examine the uses of anarchy and tradition in literature and encourage the cross-pollination of creative thought and work across genre, media, and politically/culturally contested spaces of all sorts. Coordinates 2002: Indigenous Writing Now is supported by a generous grant from the San Francisco Arts Commission, and additional support from the California College of Arts & Crafts, Poets & Writers, & our Members. We are very grateful for this support. Conference Events * Friday, April 5, 2002 6 PM- 7:30 PM: RECEPTION 7:30 PM: READING by James Thomas Stevens, Inés Hernández-Ávila, Diane Glancy, & Paula Gunn Allen * Saturday, April 6, 2002 11 AM-1 PM: PANEL Conjuring with the Hand of Language How do you speak in a transcultural and/or intercultural voice? Panelists will discuss the uses of historical materials, multiple languages, and aspects of oral and written traditions. Moderated by Diane Glancy, with Paula Gunn Allen, Esther Belin, Inés Hernández-Ávila. 3 PM - 5 PM: PANEL Vocabularies of Contested Spaces Panelists will discuss how the new vocabulary being developed by Gerald Vizenor in his recent critical books informs their own critical and creative work. Additionally, writers will address how their overall writing practice and current projects engage and articulate issues of identity, gender/sexuality, class, and related cultural concerns. Moderated by Mark Nowak, with Diane Glancy, James Thomas Stevens, Gerald Vizenor. 7:30 PM: READING by Esther Belin, Kimberly TallBear, Reid Gómez, Cedar Sigo, & Gerald Vizenor * Sunday, April 7, 2002 11 AM - 1 PM: PANEL Choices & Practices for a New Generation A discussion of the concerns, methods, desires, and strategies of a new generation of Native writers. A conversation about choices, practices, definitions, and inspirations at this particular point in time. Moderated by Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, with Reid Gómez, Cedar Sigo, Kimberly TallBear. CLOSING RECEPTION IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE PANEL Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:42:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: JDHollo@AOL.COM Subject: working class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's a book I think is relevant to the "working class poetry" discussion (kudos to Ron Silliman and Kasey Mohammad!): ONE MARKET UNDER GOD: Extreme Capitalism, Market Populism, and the End of Economic Democracy by Thomas Frank (Founding Editor of The Baffler) Anchor Books, 2001 ISBN 0-385-49504-8 $14.95 (and worth every penny) Anselm Hollo ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 14:15:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: New at the Small Press Traffic Website... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit New at the Small Press Traffic Website... New poems by Cedar Sigo & Andrew Maxwell in NEW WRITING New reviews of recent books by Chris Tysh, Lisa Robertson, Lisa Jarnot, Renee Gladman, E. Tracey Grinnell, Kathleen Fraser, Dan Farrell & Avery E. D. Burns in BOOK REVIEWS (alors!) HTTP://WWW.SPTRAFFIC.ORG Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:38:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Jennifer: The madness is upon us. We will all be dying in the madness. Nikuko: We will save you after you will be dying. We will save you after you will be dying. Nikuko: We will save you after you will be dying. We will save you after you will be dying. Nikuko: We will save you after you will be dying. We will save you after you will be dying. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality count!) In-Reply-To: <3CA89848.9050306@grin.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, but working class is sometimes a strange notion compared to poverty... I mean I am nowhere near working class but I am poor... I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my father's house I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health problmes dealt with but I am in no way working class-- both parents are professionals (though neither is working and both are in precarious financial situations) & I graduated from Columbia It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in the GYN clinic with a pregnant homeless woman who was having her eighth child and was trying to get housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the projects, so we had something in common... The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing like the problems of the working class, who are, after all, WORKING, often at decent union rates. Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was a low wage earner (mostly because Social Security was taking back half my earnings), but I wasn't in poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I was still below the poverty line then. But now I am really poor. Peple who are Working, paradoxically, have more time than those who are impoverished. When you are working, you can come home after work to your own (rented) apartment for a spot of poetry or even to write poetry. I have written a lot of poetry since my income went away, but that's because I am lucky in that moving back to my father's did not mean moving back into a home with many children & grandchildren milling around and no bedroom of mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. etc. That is due to not being working class, I guess-- my father may have little income now, but like many prfessionals, he had only one child and has a nice, spacious apartment... So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms and am talking about are people who fall from the ranks of the working class down into total poverty. When you are impoverished, you might have to walk around all day maybe. because your shelter kicks you out during the day, but you have to carry around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious and you don't smell bad, you can go in a library, and then you might be able to read poetry, but you probably don't because you are so tired from no sleep because the room held seventy women and two of them snored, 5 coughed. 2 talked all night to voices, two had sex with each other, and one had managed to sneak in a man to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the library but you have taught yourself not to slump over and to sleep with the book at the right distance from your face because you get kicked out of libraries if you sleep... And then it's time for the big line to get back into the shelter and eat a greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and lights off at some absurdly early hour which no one complains about... People who live in poverty and depend on a patchwork of programs in order to eat and sleep other than on the street have to spend inordinate amounts of time waiting in offices for those programs. They spend their lives sitting in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd have to quit the job or get fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just to get antibiotics for a sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could easily spend all day there, and then half the time, no matter how minor your complaint, instead of treating it they send you for more tests and to specialists, so that each visit to primary care balloons into three tests and visits to two specialists and you still haven't gotten any treatment, just more appointments. Then they also wait at welfare or at Social Security or at the Food Stamp office, or at HUD or at a mental health agency... I am not sure these poor people have time for poetry, the way working class people do, but when they do, I would hope they'd want something ANGRY, like some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases or what not, but I bet the poetry they really like is in the Readers' Digest (they read the Readers' Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe only because that's what's there to read). I suspect some of them tried to write poetry as teenagers, at least the women, and might become interested again if they didn't have to fight for a place to stay or a way to get medical care or enough money for food every single day. I don't know that these experiences make good poetry in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am not myself usually that taken with "sincere" work by people who have really suffered, although someotimes one has to be extremely respectful of it, even impressed, as with early AIDS poems or poetry by people under siege in Sarajevo or something. But one is impressed on a scale other than the usual poetic scale-- it's more being impressed by the bravery of a person in that situation who would stop and write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a poem. (If it is really bad, I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the kind of testimonial poems that are perfectly good, just predictable and ordinary in their use of language.) Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of megan minka lola camille roy Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality count!) > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde pursues radical invention, > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space cleared, with fierce frequency, by > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the mainstream not because you > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've never inherited a penny." > (magee) Hey this is true enough as a statement about white american poets but breaks down internationally and racially. E.g. here in san francisco there has been a very queer spoken word scene that is working class and white. Not much interest in theory. the (white) working class dyke scene in my experience is suspicious of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one itty-bitty presentation with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle a woman I actually know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were you talking about!!?! Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts have been putting together a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical experimentation ELSEWHERE. Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. This is one hell of rich vein of experimental work!! It just does not follow the paradigm of white trust fund babies toying with abstraction. WHY. Perhaps it's a political problem, not a literary one. There's been a lot of anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work (e.g. Said) which has been hella useful to people coming to consciousness about the political forces that locate them in their lives. The white (american) working class has not been gotten such persuasive and transformative analyses. WHY NOT. camille roy -- http://www.grin.net/~minka "If this is going to be a calm equality, there will be no people." (L. Scalapino) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:45:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: Ear Inn Readings--March 2002 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street New York City FREE March 9 Laurel Blossom, Susan Lukas, Paula Szuchman March 16 Charles Flowers, Dean Kostos, Sarah Manguso March 23 D. Nurkse, Hal Sirowitz March 30 Jan Clausen, Joan Larkin, Molly Peacock For more information, contact Michael Broder or Jason Schneiderman at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 11:09:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Brian Hill Brian's last bio reads: "Brian Hill can see three palm trees, a church, and the turquoise blue San Francisco Bay from his Berkeley apartment. He edits Sour Grapes Online Literary Magazine (http://www.ccnet.com/~bhill/created/) and has appeared in print in vari ous places, but not enough to make you envious. He likes chess and will travel to another planet." He can be reached at bhill@ccnet.com. NOTES FROM 1000 YEARS HENCE once there was a great nation they built a rocket put a trumpet player on it Satchmo the Apollo he walked on the Moon his cheeks filled with air Brian Hill ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 12:43:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: civil liberties Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi All, Former SF Chronicle book review editor Patricia Holt, in her email newsletter, has been summarizing some of the ways civil liberties are being gnawed away by the post-9/11 regime. Too long to quote, but if you're interested, here's a link and index of topics. #303 http://www.holtuncensored.com/members/index.html#state THE STATE OF THE (SURVEILED) UNION 1.The Whole World Is Being Watched 2.Introducing...'Predictive Software' 3.Robin and His Merry, um, Eliminators 4.Big Brother and the Cable Company 5.The UnGagging of Booksellers and Librarians 6.Implants: Surveillance of the Voluntary Kind 7.The Dorks Behind the Scenes #304 TAG! EVERYBODY'S 'IT' ASHCROFT SEEKS NEW SURVEILLANCE POWER FINALLY: KUCINICH CHALLENGES USA PATRIOT ACT LETTERS Best, Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 13:40:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Maxwell Subject: Germ/PRB March Reading Events at Dawsons Comments: To: "Ange Mlinko (E-mail)" , "Anselm Berrigan (E-mail)" , "Barbara Guest (E-mail)" , "Barbara Henning (E-mail)" , "Beth Anderson (E-mail)" , "Brandon Downing (E-mail)" , "Brandon Downing (E-mail)" , "Brent Cunningham (E-mail)" , "Carol Mirakove (E-mail)" , "Caroline Crumpacker (E-mail)" , "Charles Alexander (E-mail)" , "Charles Bernstein (E-mail)" , "Chris Edgar (E-mail)" , "Chris Stroffolino (E-mail)" , "Cole Swensen (E-mail)" , "Dodie Bellamy (E-mail)" , "Elizabeth Robinson (E-mail)" , "Elizabeth Treadwell (E-mail)" , "Eugene Ostashevsky (E-mail)" , "George Albon (E-mail)" , "Giovanni Singleton (E-mail)" , "James Meetze (E-mail)" , "Jeff Clark (E-mail)" , "Jerrold Shiroma (E-mail)" , "Jocelyn Saidenberg (E-mail)" , "John Lowther (E-mail)" , "Jolie Mayers (E-mail)" , "Jordan Davis (E-mail)" , "Juliana Spahr (E-mail)" , "Karen MacCormack (E-mail)" , "Kathleen Fraser (E-mail)" , "Katie Degentesh (E-mail)" , "Kevin Killian (E-mail)" , "Kristen Gallagher (E-mail)" , "Laura Moriarty (E-mail)" , "Lewis MacAdams (E-mail)" , "Lisa Jarnot (E-mail)" , "Macgregor Card (E-mail)" , "Marcella Durand (E-mail)" , "Mark DuCharme (E-mail)" , "Mark Nowak (E-mail)" , "Mary Jo Bang (E-mail)" , "Michael Scharf (E-mail)" , "Olivier Brossard (E-mail)" , "Peter Gizzi (E-mail)" , "Philippe Beck (E-mail)" , "Prageeta Sharma (E-mail)" , "Robert Gluck (E-mail)" , "Roberto Tejada (E-mail)" , "Ron Horning (E-mail)" , "Rosmarie Waldrop (E-mail)" , "Sarah Anne Cox (E-mail)" , "Small Press Traffic (E-mail)" , "Stacy Doris (E-mail)" , "Stephen Rodefer (E-mail)" , "Steve Dickison (E-mail)" , "Steve McCaffery (E-mail)" , "Summi Kaipa (E-mail)" , "Taylor Brady (E-mail)" , "Thomas Raworth (E-mail)" , "Tisa Bryant (E-mail)" , "Tom Devaney (E-mail)" , "Yan Brailowsky (E-mail)" , "Yedda Morrison (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" The Germ & the Poetic Research Bureau (Western Office): MARCH READING EVENTS Mar 10: Sarah Anne Cox, Ange Mlinko Mar 15: Stephen Rodefer, Jacques Roubaud Mar 29: Michael Davidson, Peter Gizzi Always at Dawson's Book Shop in Hancock Park. Dawsons is located at 535 N. Larchmont Blvd between Beverly Blvd and Melrose Blvd. Tel: 213-469-2186 Readings are open to all. $3 donation requested for poets/venue. Call Andrew at 310.446.8162 x233 for more info. *** March 10, Sunday 6pm Sarah Anne Cox is the author of Home of Grammar (Double Lucy, 1997) and definite articles (a+bend, 1999). Her poetry and critical work has appeared in numerous journals, including Arshile, Five Fingers Review, How2, Scout, Syllogism, and Tripwire, and she is an associate editor of Outlet. Additional pursuits include extreme windsurfing and fronting several rock outfits in the SF Bay Area. Ange Mlinko's poetry has been published in Agni, Grand Street, Jacket, Lingo, New American Writing, and lift. Her book Matinees (1999) was published by Zoland Books. Ange Mlinko lives in New York City where she edits the Poetry Project Newletter. Some poems of hers can be found at: & *** March 15, Friday 7:30pm Jacques Roubaud is a French poet and mathematician born in 1932. After teaching Mathematics at the University of Paris X Nanterre beginning in 1970, Roubaud started publishing numerous books of poetry and prose. He has published in all genres: prose, theater and poetry. He is one of the most accomplished members of Oulipo, the workshop for experimental literature. He is also the president of the Association Georges Perec. He has translated Lewis Caroll's Hunting of the Snark and contemporary American poetry into French. Most of his translated works are published by Dalkey Archive, including The Plurality of Worlds of Lewis, Hortense in Exile, Hortense is Abducted, Some Thing Black and The Great Fire of London. Stephen Rodefer is the author of several collections of poetry, including Mon Canard (2000), Left Under a Cloud (1999), Answer to Doctor Agathon (1995), Erasers (1994), Leaving (1992), Emergency Measures (1987), and Four Lectures (1977). Rodefer recently returned to the United States following three years teaching in Paris and two at Cambridge. He continues to split time between Brooklyn and Paris. A former student of Charles Olson, he is perhaps the most musical of those writers associated with the Language School Poets. He has taught at San Francisco State University, University of New Mexico-Albuquerque, and others. *** March 29 Friday 7:30 Peter Gizzi was awarded the Lavan Younger Poets Award from the Academy of American Poets in 1994. His publications include Periplum (1992), Music for Films (1994), Hours of the Book (1994), Ledger Domain (1995), New Picnic Time (1995), Artificial Heart (1998) and Add This to the House (200o). He has also edited o-blek: a journal of language arts (1987-93), the Exact Change Yearbook (1995) and The House That Jack Built: The Collected Lectures of Jack Spicer (1998). He currently teaches creative writing and American literature at UMass in Amherst. Michael Davidson is the author of seven books of poetry, including The Landing of Rochambeau (1985), Post Hoc (1990) and The Arcades (2001). He teaches literature at the University of California in San Diego and is the author of The San Francisco Renaissance: Poetics and Community at Mid-Century (Cambridge University Press, 1989) and Ghostlier Demarcations: Modern Poetry and the Material World (University of California Press, 1997). ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 16:50:10 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Bassford Subject: Exoterica MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Exoterica's good friend Ram Devineni of Rattapallax Press has asked us to pass the following information along to our subscibers: 2002 Dialogue Through Poetry Reading Wednesday, March 20, 2002 from 7-9 p.m. The New School, Tishman Auditorium @ 66W 12th St, NYC FREE Admission Featured poets and readers: Breyten Breytenbach, Sashi Tharoor, Bob Holman, Sonia Sanchez, Sharon Olds, and others. For more info visit http://www.dialoguepoetry.org Watch your EXOTERICA mailings for exciting announcements about WORD 2002, The Jay Liveson Festival of Poetry and Music, on June 8th...Exoterica...we'll be spreading the WORD... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:20:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Luoma Subject: Speech Acts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Matvei thanks for putting on the show last nite. and Charles thanks for the question last nite. ANd thanks to soy bomb and the strange tension surrounding the union steward, I didn't get a chance to answer. I would like to go on record as saying that: Why I am Not a Performance Poet 1) Too lazy. 2a) I.E. One dimension can be "enough" for me during speech acts: linear time reading while holding sort of still. 2b) Other dimensions of motion-space and light-space 2c) Other bodies participating in 2a and 2b 3) Require hard work and practice and often a director 4) Even if you are an exceptional improvisor (e.g. members of the Yogurt Boys) 5) "you LIKE to say within the lines"--Todd Colby best, Bill Luoma ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:52:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boog City presents John Coletti and Friends MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit please forward: __________ Boog City presents: this Friday, March 8, 2002, 7 p.m. John Coletti & friends Sideshow Gallery 319 Bedford Ave. Williamsburg, Brooklyn, NY $5 publication party for Boog Literature chapbook #31, The New Normalcy, by, yes, John Coletti with a rockin' old school, New York that is, four-color cover by Jonathan Allen!! chapbook, normally $6, will be $5 tonight only (mail order info at end of email) w/performances by Betsy Fagin, Greg Fuchs, and Mariana Ruiz-Firmat music from I Feel Tractor and, of course, a reading by one Mr. John Coletti Hosted by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum ____ Directions: Bedford Ave. stop on L, bet. S.2nd and S.3rd streets Info: 212-206-8899 • booglit@theeastvillageeye.com to order The New Normalcy by mail, send $7 ppd check or money order payable to Boog Literature to: David A. Kirschenbaum, editor Boog Literature 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 Attn: Boog Chapbook #31 -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 T: (212) 206-8899 F: (212) 206-9982 booglit@theeastvillageeye.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 08:53:56 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: Note on Dissenting Agency & the Concept Anti-Globalism or Anti-Globalization Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ron Silliman writes: "The anti-globalism movement, taken as a whole, is frankly not promising, though it is within that coalition that answers will have to be found." This sentence disturbs. "Anti-globalism movement" or "anti-globalization movement" doesn't specify an existing entity, does it? The phrase is often used by commercial media to point to a cluster of contemporary political dissent but it does not get the specifically anti-capitalist character of the current oppositionality. It's a phrase that misses the severity of the criticism by making dissent appear as a mere variety of nationalism that advocates governmental policies to protect domestic trade. Yuck! Ick! Gack! Shouldn't the movements be re-described in post-nationalist terms? And are these movements, not taken as a whole, more promising? Who are the members of this coalition such that they may be promising or not? Who, I wonder, are the least promising agents in a transition to a post-capitalist economy today? Well, thanks for the sentence, Ron. Prompts a number of questions. I'd like to hear what other members of this poetics list think about these problems. My apologies if they've already been addressed--I can only follow the messages here sporadically. Aaron Vidaver Vancouver "Often our good friends use to bring me all kinds of beautiful flowers, but the beautiful cloves and the red black beauty vivid roses that you brought us Saturday last, which I liked so well, were certainly the most big and beautiful bunch of flowers I have ever had." -- Nicola Sacco to Georg Branting, June 1927 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:51:37 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: john chris jones Subject: ...the end of human life Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" to Alan Sondheim and everyone: re his Posting number 50924, Of Coin: 'We live within the horizon of universal apocalypse' which reminds me of somethings I underlined recently: (in 'Leo Strauss and Nietzsche' by Laurence Lampert, University of Chicago Press, Chicago and London 1996, page 182): Nietzsche speaks: '...And if the whole of humanity is destined to die out - and who dares doubt that? - so the goal is set ... to grow together in one and in common that it sets out as a whole to meet its coming demise... ' (originally from 'Richard Wagner in Bayreuth' 4 end) ...which puts everything into a different perspective, does it not? - affects each of us, profoundly, and affects all ideas... and then from page 183 of Lampert's book, Nietzsche sings: '...love for life as it is becomes the desire that life be eternally what it is, that our paradise of the imperfect eternally return just as it is.' (from the songs that close part 3 of 'Thus Spoke Zarathrustra') and on page 181 of his book Laurence Lampert speaks lines from Wallace Stevens' poem 'The poems of our climate'... from which I select: Clear water in a brilliant bowl, Pink and white carnations. The light In the room like a snowy air, Reflecting snow... while Laurence emphasises this line: 'The imperfect is our paradise.' (but he speaks it very quietly) ...and then I underlined Lampert's astonishing statement,, on page 181: '"what religions are good for" ... What they are simply indispensable for, is the structuring poetry of everyday life, that web of beliefs and values lived spontaneously by any and every human community as its testament of the useful, the good, and the holy.' ...which he seems to ascribe to Nietszche! (though not those words) ...and now, in the presence and hearing of these quotations, from Sondheim to Nietzsche, I sense that a belief in progress is indeed no longer timely, that a belief in religion is no longer irrelevant, nor is religion 'Man's worst invention' (Marcel Duchamp), (if it is a post-religion - not one of the failed ones) and that 'the poetry of everything' is perhaps more relevant than is any of this? ... ...at which I imagine Percy Bysshe Shelly applauding - and restating his Defence of Poetry. in the distance ... ...as I fall into the deepest water, beneath politics, but breathing, and writing these words I hope without fanaticism... But Alan, and Laurence, and Friedrich, and everyone, I cannot quite believe in any apocalypse, or creation myth, or any other such words or categories, because, as many people have pointed out, and as even J R R Tolkien has: 'By ... naming things and describing them, you are only inventing your own terms about them. And just as speech is an invention about objects and ideas so myth is an invention about truth' (ascribed to Tolkien by Humphrey Carpenter in 'J R R Tolkien, a biography', George Allen and Unwin, London 1989, page 151). And lastly (in this disease of quotations that you have provoked, Alan) there is a remark of the painter Francis Bacon that I remember (perhaps imperfectly) from a radio interview: 'I am an optimist, but so far I've not found anything to be optimistic about! with good wishes despite everything from all of us to all of us in this less than eternity beyond theory beyond carnations or not not! john chris A more colourful (and thus much clearer) form of this letter appears in my digital diary at: http://www.softopia.demon.co.uk/2.2/digital_diary_02.03.06.html ) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 15:01:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: John Wiener and the Working Class poet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Laurie, yes, I was at that reading and vulnerable snd focussed (two words that seldom keep company in the USA) sre aptly joined toevoke John's presence, and not only on that occasion. I find your notes re working class intellectuals germane. A special case is Lawrence, whose schoolmarm Mum might have intro'd middleclass gentilities into the home, and given the boy permission, as it were, to love books. His genius by-and-by made him classless (or of all classes) and of several nations to boot--america, mexico, and italy, notably. He enjoyed a sort of outsider status--though he was made to suffer for it. I like to think he met with such snobs far less in New Mexico than in England, where the natives are so good at it. (On a trip there in '92, by when 40 years if trying to be understood by transatlantic students had so taken the edge off my accent, that in europe I passed as american,I was enjoying a conversation with an upperclass englishman when our host broke in to tell him "you know, David was one of us"....I could scarcely get another word out of the chap. Who knew that I'd not have lost my accent had it been U. But as long as I was a Yank, he could speak freely; I didnt really matter. ) John's outrageousness--the female film stars he impersonated--satisfied several traits of his, but one function was surely to distract one from his sin of being 'workingclass intellectual'--john as 'gloria grahame ' (I may be projecting a wish of my own here; I'm actually not able, today, to recall whom he did so identify with) was more outrageous than the truth. David. -----Original Message-----From: laurie macrae To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Monday, March 04, 2002 8:09 PM Subject: John Wiener and the Working Class poet >In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on >campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San >Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of >you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my >poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there >for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John >Wiener though. >Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli >Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the >event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy >handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so >vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience >response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be >addressing a private spectre, and we all felt >privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private >transaction. > >Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there >existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the >working class intellectual. This person was >self-educated with the help of the public library and >the numerous public offerings available then through >labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, >and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized >it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. >This was the era of memorization in school too, and my >parents learned many, many poems by heart while they >were still in school. >Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to >be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, >it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message >of the poem,it loses some of it's power. >You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel >Linsay,but there was and there remains a >class-consciousness in it that moved working men and >women of my parents generation, and made them believe >that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel >Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his >work, sometimes, for dinner. > I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about >"working class poets" these last few days. It appears >that this predominantly academic list really believes >that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop >writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly >victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford >Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the >beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, >the working class guy who wanted to play the violin >but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. > >The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron >Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class >perspective,is always accessable. I read him first >without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I >undertook to learn about it because of him. I still >think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or >later he will give us the last word here. >Laurie Macrae > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball >http://sports.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 21:29:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: If MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - If If Auschwitz hadn't happened, if September were another, I'd say that you were mine, I'd say we'd stay together, In any darkness, weather; if Beirut were filled with flowers, Jerusalem a town, I'd say we'd live forever, I'd say we'd be together; If Afghanistan were peaceful, if America were other, I'd say we're made for one another, I'd say eternity; If Rwanda never happened, Sudan were prosperous, I'd say we'd love forever, I'd say a god was there, so glorious in us; If Israel were milk, and Palestine of honey, and China were so sweet, We'd lie together there, I'd say you were the rose, All among the fairest; if one voice hadn't happened, Another took its place, I'd say your name forever, And we would live forever; if September were another, A day of bright fall weather, if Auschwitz hadn't happened, In any darkness, weather, I'd say that we were peaceful, I'd say eternity, if animals still roamed free, if there were animals, I'd say a god was there, so glorious in us, all among the fairest; If one voice hadn't happened, another took its place. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:44:45 -0500 Reply-To: WHITEBOX@EARTHLINK.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WHITE BOX Organization: WHITE BOX Subject: David MEDALLA & Adam NANKERVIS... White Box PERFORMANCES ! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Saturday March 9th at 6:30 pm... join us for two PERFORMANCES... David Medalla "New York Epiphanies No 3, Pantheon of WASP and non-WASP Saints" & Adam Nankervis "Deep Dive Down" __________________________________________ NOTE: This is the closing day of our OXYGEN exhibition... The New York Times/Ken Johnson "...A medical doctor organized an exhibition in which works by all 11 artists relate to breathing....Matta-Clark's famous breathing station... Abromovic's...human skeleton... Munoz's "disappeared" victims... and...Jacob('s) respiring forms under red..." (03.11.02) Time Out New York/Ana Finel Honigman "...Each work in this sobering, beautiful exhibition hinges on the nature of breathing as an ever-present memento mori... As one of our most basic forms of contact with the world, breathing connects with our bodies to the environment.." (02.28.02) The Village Voice/(*recommended) "...the works by 11 artists in this fine show about life and breath." (03.05.02) WHITE BOX_____________________ 525 WEST 26TH STREET NEW YORK, NY 10001 USA TEL. 212.714.2347 WWW.WHITEBOXNY.ORG WHITE BOX is a 501(C)(3) non-profit arts organization. We appreciate your generous support. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:57:28 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit poesia, a "product" not valorized under these social circumstances. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Murat Nemet-Nejat To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be >In a message dated 3/4/02 4:05:50 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > >>Ken. You're roght I think i much you say: but he strict definion of working >> >>class would actually include everyone EXCEPT people who own the meeans >>of >> >>production. > >Richard, > >But a poet absolutely owns his or her means of production --for a "product" >which essentially nobody wants. How do you deal with that? > >Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 23:46:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII MIME-Version: 1.0 Back in the > >70s, Coach House Press published an anthology containing one poem by each poet > >whose book ms. they'd been unable to publish. It was a quite good book if > >memory serves. > > > > Please. It was supposed to be an anti-slushpile joke. > More evidence, were any required, that irony vanishes in email transmission -- But this sentence has me scratching my head anyway -- what exactly would an "anti-slushpile joke" be? and why would anybody publish an entire book (at some expense) to make such a jest -- To discourage people from contributing for fear that they might get a poem published in an anti slush-pile joke? Who was the joke to be on? the contributors or the hapless readers of the volume? Intentionality, where is thy sting? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tell Her -- the page I never wrote! Tell Her, I only said -- the Syntax -- And left the Verb and the Pronoun -- out! --Emily Dickinson Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 16:12:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Frey Subject: Poetry at NOTcoffeeHouse by Gontarek and Kearns 1 pm Sun.3/10/02 at First Unitarian Church Comments: To: weekend@phillynews.com Comments: cc: NIZ520@aol.com, Kaleta@rowan.edu, chang@rowan.edu, Thottem@rowan.edu, ohrcoulter@enter.net, First Unitarian Church of Philadelphia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" (NOTcoffeeHouse)Poetry and Performance Series www.notcoffeehouse.org Sunday, March 10, 2002, 1 pm First Unitarian Church 2125 Chestnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19103/215-563-3980 Featured poets: Leonard Gontarek is the author of three books of poems: Zen For Beginners, Van Morrison Can't Find His Feet and St. Genevieve Watching Over Paris. His poems have appeared in Poetry Northwest, American Poetry Review, The Quarterly, American Writing, Mudfish, Exquisite Corpse, CrossConnect, with work forthcoming in Field, Volt, Concrete Wolf, Experimental Forest. He is a recipient of a poetry fellowship from the Pennsylvania Council on the Arts. He is editor of two books of children's poetry and is contributing editor for American Poetry Review. He has coordinated 500 poetry events in the Philadelphia area since 1991. He lives in West Philadelphia with his family of humans and cats: Catherine, Maxwell, Simone and Isabella. Peggy Kearns Plus Open Poetry and Performance Showcase $1 admission. Poets and performers may submit works for posting on the website via email (attachment easiest for webmaster) to the webmaster@notcoffeehouse.org or works may be emailed to Richard Frey at richardfrey@dca.net or USPS or hand-delivered through slot at 500 South 25th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19146. More information: Church office, 215-563-3980, Jeff Loo, 546-6381 or Richard Frey, 735-7156. Website address: www.notcoffeehouse.org POETS & PERFORMERS PREVIOUSLY APPEARING AT NOTCOFFEEHOUSE: NATHALIE ANDERSON, LISA COFFMAN, BARBARA COLE, BARB DANIELS, LINH DINH, LORI-NAN ENGLER, SIMONE ZELITCH, DAN EVANS, BRENDA MCMILLAN, KERRY SHERIN, JOHN KELLY GREEN, EMILIANO MARTIN, JOSE GAMALINDA, TOSHI MAKIHARA, THOM NICKELS, JOANNE LEVA, DARCY CUMMINGS, DAVID MOOLTEN, KRISTEN GALLAGHER, SHULAMITH WACHTER CAINE, MARALYN LOIS POLAK, MARCUS CAFAGNA, ETHEL RACKIN, LAUREN CRIST, BETH PHILLIPS BROWN, JOSEPH SORRENTINO, FRANK X, RICHARD KIKIONYOGO, ELLIOTT LEVIN, LEONARD GONTAREK, LAMONT STEPTOE, BERNARD STEHLE, SHARON RHINESMITH, ALEXANDRA GRILIKHES, C. A. CONRAD, NATE CHINEN, JIM CORY, TOM GRANT, GREGG BIGLIERI, ELI GOLDBLATT, STEPHANIE JANE PARRINO, JEFF LEE, THEODORE A. HARRIS, MIKE MAGEE, WIL PERKINS, DEBORAH BURNHAM, UNSOUND, DANNY ROMERO, DON RIGGS, SHAWN WALKER, SHE-HAW, SCOTT KRAMER, JUDITH TOMKINS, 6 OF THE UNBEARABLES - ALFRED VITALE RON KOLM, JIM FEAST, MIKE CARTER, SHARON MESMER, CAROL WIERZBICKI-,JOHN PHILLIPS, QUINN ELI, MOLLY RUSSAKOFF, PEGGY CARRIGAN, KELLY MCQUAIN, PATRICK KELLY, MARK SARRO, ROCCO RENZETTI, VOICES OF A DIFFERENT DREAM - ANNIE GEHEB, ELLEN FORD MASON, SUSAN WINDLE - BOB PERELMAN, JENA OSMAN, ROBYN EDELSTEIN,BRIAN PATRICK HESTON, FRANCIS PETER HAGEN, SHANKAR VEDANTAM, YOLANDA WISHER, LYNN LEVIN, MARGARET HOLLEY, DON SILVER, ROSS GAY, HEATHER STARR, MAGDALENA ZURAWSKI, DAISY FRIED, KNIFE & FORK BAND, ALICIA ASKENASE, RUTH ROUFF, KYLE CONNER, TAMARA OAKMAN, ROBYN EDELSTEIN, SARA OMINSKY, THADDEUS RUTKOWSKI, CAROLE BERNSTEIN, RYAN ECKES, THE NIGHTBIRDS, MARJ HAHNE, TONI BROWN, MELISA CAHNMANN, DIANE GUARNIERI, SIANI TAYLOR, CATZIE VILAYPHONH, MICHELLE MYERS, NZADI KEITA, ANDREW BRADLEY, JOE CHELLIUS, A.V. CHRISTIE, SHELLY REESE, SHANNON COULTER, NINA ISRAEL ZUCKER -- Richard Frey 500 South 25th Street Philadelphia. PA 19146 215-735-7156 richardfrey@dca.net ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:28:19 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat. True up to a point. What I meant by "means of production" and the owners of..refers to the major industries or utilities (mainly but not only) in the West....I'm not a Marxist per se altho I have some left leanings (silly term I know: sounds asa if I'm a crooked pole:oops! no sorry, crooked tree...)...but as I understand (I was really taking fom Marx etc) he puts eg certain unemployed etc as lumpen-proletariat and so on...the terms themselves arent much help: what is needed is a clear definition...poets and artists DONT own THE means of production...in any type of society there are people with private property (property is theft should be enormous ownership of private means etc is theft - the phrase is a bit meaningless however) and that includes artists who, like artisans, are workers: they are in a sub-class of the larger class working class: these divisions are only to simplify things for he sake of argument: poets and other creative people are almost in a category alone: but poets can come from any class background...that doesnt make them "better" or :"more insightful"..here in NZ Katherine Mansfield is sometimes attacked for being of the "upper" types and Ken Sargeson is pitted against her...but to me their class and other backgrounds are _less_ important than their work: i personally think both are great writers...Sargeson wrote for Communist papers in the early days: but I dontthink he was a communist - he may have been - and he was gay: Mansfield had TB and was from a fairly well-to-do family: Lawrence was jealous of her (ability) and so I think was Eliot somewhat, but while class is significant it isnt the major factor: the individual is always capable of free choice regardless. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 5:08 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > In a message dated 3/4/02 4:05:50 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > >Ken. You're roght I think i much you say: but he strict definion of working > > > >class would actually include everyone EXCEPT people who own the meeans > >of > > > >production. > > Richard, > > But a poet absolutely owns his or her means of production --for a "product" > which essentially nobody wants. How do you deal with that? > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 20:34:30 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But in a subtle sense they ARE leftists: sometimes only Muslims are actively fighting capitalism: or people from those countries (of course there is also the anti-globalisation struggles...in the long run that they were once Muslims or Jews or Christians would be irrelevant if the US pulled out as it should: the US Military-Industrial comlex) is the cause of much conflict. For "theocratic fascism" read: "countries who organise their own countries in their own way and dont grovel to the US". Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 5:15 PM Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER > In a message dated 3/4/02 4:06:41 PM, tottels@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > >The underlying problem is that at this moment > >in history capitalism has lost its Other and what comes closest, alas, > >is > >theocratic fascism. > > > > A very perceptive observation. For instance, in Turkey, some people who used > to be leftists before the fall of the Soviet Union have because Islamists, > essentially because in the Third World it is the major organized dissent > against the United States. > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 00:07:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: John Wiener and the Working Class poet In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020305070949.00a1beb0@mail> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >good stuff > >Gene > Who is this John Wiener? > > >At 03:22 PM 3/4/02 -0800, you wrote: >>In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on >>campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San >>Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of >>you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my >>poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there >>for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John >>Wiener though. >>Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli >>Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the >>event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy >>handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so >>vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience >>response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be >>addressing a private spectre, and we all felt >>privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private >>transaction. >> >>Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there >>existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the >>working class intellectual. This person was >>self-educated with the help of the public library and >>the numerous public offerings available then through >>labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, >>and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized >>it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. >>This was the era of memorization in school too, and my >>parents learned many, many poems by heart while they >>were still in school. >>Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to >>be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, >>it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message >>of the poem,it loses some of it's power. >>You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel >>Linsay,but there was and there remains a >>class-consciousness in it that moved working men and >>women of my parents generation, and made them believe >>that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel >>Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his >>work, sometimes, for dinner. >> I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about >>"working class poets" these last few days. It appears >>that this predominantly academic list really believes >>that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop >>writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly >>victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford >>Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the >>beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, >>the working class guy who wanted to play the violin >>but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. >> >>The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron >>Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class >>perspective,is always accessable. I read him first >>without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I >>undertook to learn about it because of him. I still >>think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or >>later he will give us the last word here. >>Laurie Macrae >> >> >>__________________________________________________ >>Do You Yahoo!? >>Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball >>http://sports.yahoo.com -- George Bowering Bigger than I was. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:08:24 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: [webartery] Re: web art manifesto on Rhizome Comments: To: Joel Weishaus Comments: cc: E-POETRY-2001-LIST@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU In-Reply-To: <002a01c1c541$a044e3e0$8afdfc83@oemcomputer> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > let me propose that what print did was to create solitary readers and >writers. >> prior to print both reading and writing were shared activities, >> community activities. >> hand written texts were written with others around and read to large >> groups of people because they were so immobile/expensive/rare. >> the book allowed a certain mobility and ownership and solitary study. > >This is not exactly true. During the long "Dark Ages," texts were copied in >monasteries, at least in Europe, so that there may have been a few people >around (probably Umberto Eco, lurking in the shadows), but they were all >monks. > >> what the interconnected web and web work is doing is bringing >> community back into writing and reading, making it a shared >> experience. > >People have shared books for a long time, from libraries. And of course >there are newspapers and magazines. But what does shared mean? If the web >one big room, where are you? >What I'm getting at is that this subject is immensely complicated. I'm not >even sure if it's worth discussing, although I'll have to when I review >Loss's book. > >Best, >Joel where will your review of loss's book be available? and what do you think of jay bolter's 'writing space', the latest version? people get very defensive when you say the book did this or the book did that. i find myself reacting to what bolter says about the book and the computer as if they were adversaries, and as if they had human characteristics, malice, ambition, etc. undoubtably, indubiously, whatever, people have shared books for a long time, but i meant the shared experience of and not material possession of books. the web is not one big room, its one big moment and we come together at that moment in time, not place, or space. space?, now there is an interesting word/concept in itself. the space between words on a page, the space between reader and text, the space between computer and end-user, the space the end-user is in when reading or surfing the web, the cyberspace that people talk of that we are supposed to meet in when on the web, the metaphorical spaces of reason, recall and imagination, the space of nasa, personal lifestyle space, are all these spaces the same? i remember when i didn't have a computer and internet connection, writing and reading were solitary endeavours. that is why i became a performance poet because the poetry sounding was a community event, a sharing of a writing/reading experience. with the internet connection, i can read a post on webartery, can sleep, can wake still thinking of that post and send off my response. that discussion creates a timeline of its own within the timeline of duration, ie clocktime. the webartery timeline works from post to post, sometimes it is running parallel with clocktime, when the posts are fast and furious, at other times it is suspended eg. when servers play up, sleep, going to work, cooking dinner, etc.. what i do know is that thinking and writing are at the basis of all of it, all communication between human beings, and i find it difficult to agree with those like bolter who say we have switched from a verbal to a visual culture. the examples given of things we now read visually instead of verbally still have writing at their source, the tv news-report, the movie, television soapies, supermario, the graphical web. and the readers of such visual texts still have to have a knowledge built on the written stuff to interpret the images, the non-verbal signs. have to break out of webartery timeline now to get my son to school, can't wait to return for the responses of my community when i am once again immersed in webartery/e-Poetry/ubpoetics time. -- komninos zervos bsc(hons) ma(creative writing) http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/K_Zervos Convenor CyberStudies major School of Arts Griffith University Gold Coast Campus PMB 50 Gold Coast Mail Centre Queensland 9726 Australia tel: +61 7 55528872 fax: +61 7 55528141 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:36:52 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I understand what you're saying. My father was an architect in a working class area (but in a sense he was still "working class" but now he had moved up the ladder a bit and there were people we knew in "Remmers" (posh part of Auckland) etc who were very nice but they were also rich and talked like kind people and so on and often they were genuinely very good people just well off and I was a bit of the "meat in the sandwich" (embarrassed because my mother insisted I wear shoes (all the other boys were tough little buggers) and even embarrassed that we were a bit 'better off" and because they were English I was once accused of being a "pom" (which in those days was a crime - little joke ) .... there was not anti-semitism that I was aware of (altho I know it exists here) so your situation wouldnt be common here as such in terms of being Jewish but it would in terms of your "class orientation" so to speak: but what we are talking about is an attitude of mind, habits, culture, individual genotype, experience etc interacting with one's actual economic state or status: being working class etc isnt "good" or "bad": there are good people of any class but class as a general concept is useful to be aware of: I listed my occupations because ..dont know why..not to impress by reverse snobbery: actually in some respects I also (another side of me) hated the working class and I had a kind of division -still do somewhat - sometimes I dream of becoming a "big shot" with tons of cash....but (anycase) when I talk to people I treat each person the same even Bush or the Queen I'd talk the same to to their faces: you wont see me grovel to anyone unles they're threatenning to punch my lights out or they've got a gun pointing at me...sorry, silly joke... but a poetry chap book I did had on the back: "Richard is descended from the Big Bang"... and that's true: we all bleed and so forth. Regards, Richard. PS The point is most of us - regardless of our occupations, unless we actually own eg a big company (like Bill Gates etal) are working class regardless of what we do or even if we dont even work and regardless of how poor or not we are:people in poverty are on the lower strata of the broad class which is strictly speaking Working Class (although we think of street cleaners etc: an accountant (say) on $100,000 is still Working Class, but his/her outlook or philosophy etc may not be: although one might expect such a person to be more likely to be "right" or orientated to supporting the Ruling Class (bourgesoisie as Marx defined it they were the Middle Class 300 years ago and are now the Ruling Class - or the owners of the means of production) they could even be Marxists or whateverists....and religion causes (or can be used by the unscrupulous to cause) divisions amongst the Working Class as "divide et imperum" is stet. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Arielle Greenberg" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 1:51 PM Subject: Re: working poets, working class poets. > --- Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson > wrote: > > Hello everyone, I really appreciate Dodie Bellamy's > > very lucid response of > > Fri 3/1 to this discussion. I wanted to add to her > > comments that I think > > class origin is not only something that can be "rid > > of" during one lifetime, > > but also something that plays out over multiple > > generations. I've heard > > things from people of many different class origins > > that make me think this > > is true. > > > Very interesting discussion. A couple comments, > neither of which are meant to take away in ANY WAY > from the genuine and totally neccessary work of > working class poets (someone said that class is the > invisible oppressor in this country, that even more > than race or gender, we are still very much in denial > about it and all its ramifications, and I think this > may be true, at least in art...): > 1) I find it funny/odd/problematic/cool that there > seems to be a trend of poets listing all their > "working class" jobs in their bio notes when they are > published in Big Journals: "Poet X has worked as a > dishwasher, ditch digger, welder, etc. and is now > teaching at X University." Has anyone else noticed > this "trend"? And isn't this true for many of us who > are middle-class? I, for instance, worked as a > cashier, nanny, data entry clerk, etc. And yes, this > informs my poetics, certainly, but what is to be > gained/lossed from mentioning it, since I now have > health care and an academic (non-secure) job? > 2) Not to cop any pity or anything, but I am > wondering if anyone else feels, along the lines of > what Elizabeth was saying about generational class > fallout, the pressures of a working class mentality on > their middle class lives. I am fourth generation > American, but my Jewish family, which has been middle > class for at least two generations (my grandparents > worked and GI'ed their way thru college), still acts > out working class anxieties. My father is a college > professor, but my parents bought generic brand food, > never went out to eat, yelled at us for leaving the > fridge door open, etc.--it's like no matter how > "comfortable" we actually were, we couldn't act like > it. I am sure that after a certain point in my > childhood, we were never really living paycheck to > paycheck (although it was scary when my dad was denied > tenure for the first time), but my parents sure made > it seem like we did, and I grew up highly anxious > about money and never feeling like I had anything in > common with the kids in my (upper-middle-class) > neighborhood, whose jeans were Jordache, not Salvation > Army or Sears like mine. I feel like this was an > ethnic thing, too, although all my Jewish friends > definitely had the designer jeans (genes?). > > Just complicating an already complicated issue, > cheerfully! (Please don't flame me...I have the flu > and can't bear it right now...) > > Arielle > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball > http://sports.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 08:44:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/6/02 11:45:34 PM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: << Joe, I think you are raising a crucial issue. If art (specifically poetry) is not economically viable, then how can a poem be seen as a "product" in the economic cycle? Is a poet a "producer? What is a poet's class structure, as a poet, in the cycle of production? Murat >> Apologies for inserting myself here. Seems to me that poetry is economically viable, in the academy. Anthologies, some of them, sell quite well. And many poets make a living traveling from reading to reading. It's true that most poets don't achieve this status, but publishers can and do sell enough anthologies and books by single authors (if s/he's the right author) to justify publication. Publishers also use low sales of poetry as a tax write off, and that increases their profit. So long as poetry is bound and delivered between two covers with price tag, it's a product, right? The situation is not all that dissimilar to that of serious (classical?) music and jazz. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 11:07:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: class In-Reply-To: <20020305074053.17021.qmail@web11702.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" so much good stuff here on this issue of economic class that i find the prospect of addressing same with any measure of insight kinda daunting, i must admit... but since i pride mself in my self-absorption (;->) i will lay it on some... first, richard: i'm a pro-collective bargaining guy... unions have their problems, is all's i'm trying to say (my father used to bitch about seniority constantly, yet he was, as i say, a union steward)... to me, the only alternative to unions is corporate management structure---e.g., many aspects of the u.s. govt. since wwii anyway---and i can't see having one w/o the other... so yeah, i'm pro-union, period... i mean, it seems to me that we bitch way more about unions than we do about the *real* culprits---i.e., the *corporations*... secondly, murat: good question, and thank you for it!... but i don't think you can isolate poetic production from the larger capitalist system within which it operates, and which simultaneously supports and thwarts such production... as an academic, the symbolic/cultural captial i accrue from book production is hardly incidental to my wage----strictly publish-or-perish in this household... and this household drops about 15% of its net income on professional expenses related to publication (i publish scholarship too, which generates zero royalties... if i sell a script though, i'm in the money---but since i don't find it possible to write scripts w/o writing poetry, i would say that these practices are related even at the language level)... clearly, those of you who are not academics don't enjoy quite the publish-or-perish stricture---but you too accrue some amount of symbolic/cultural capital, and likely pay (out of pocket) to publish your works (ultimately)... which money comes from some part of the (broadly) capitalist system, even if you work for a nonprofit... in any case, the economic analysis here has to do, at the very least, with understanding (at least) two competing or contrary economic modalities, and with the knowledge that gdp in this country (at present) is supported by a federal operating budget that is currently in the red... consumers are going into debt to support this output (let's set enron aside for a moment)... i have a habit of saying, e.g., that education loses money--- as something of a public work, which presumes to work for the public good (the mission of many colleges and universities still tied to educating a labor workforce)---which is to say, that the govt pays (and should pay) for certain things... which is to say, that taxpayers pay (as should corporations)... which is to say, that you can't generalize negative profits into the absence of productivity... which *isn't* to say that, b/c a capitalist system supports education (well, our "state u" is currently receiving 11.9% of its operating budget from the state of colorado), education ought therefore to be run like a capitalist system... ditto for poetry... in fact i would ask for more taxpayer dollars... and i would ask that folks come to understand the consumption of resources and wages to produce or ensure an active gift or barter economy as intrinsically related to the capitalist enterprise (as things stand)... am i making sense?... ---- i want to mention here in passing two artifacts, one a poem, and one a nonfiction memoir, that have profoundly influenced my understanding of how class might be handled in more literary terms: first, ben hamper's ~rivethead~, which appeals to me, despite several working assumptions that strike me as problematic (chiefly, hamper's unbridled representational approach), perhaps in part b/c hamper attends to the hourly side of factory life during the same seven years or so i was experiencing the white-collar side of same (77-84)... hamper ends up with a nervous breakdown, i end up in grad school (and this gives some idea, i think, of why i feel kinda privileged and surely lucky to have been holding that sheepskin)... and secondly, sharon doubiago's ~hard country~, one of the great long u.s. poems of the past 25 years, as i see it, and one that hardly gets mentioned in these parts... b/c of its more stridently feminist, class-based appeal?---i certainly didn't and don't find that book an "easy" read... so it's not that doubiago isn't doing interesting things formally (if you will)... and i would rank it right up there with ~my life~ and ~midwinter day~, published around the same time... ---- this brings me digressively to something that, i must admit, really torques me: that post by caribbean poet james janus henderson... and i.s., please feel free to forward my response to mr. henderson (i must admit though---i'm generally loathe to respond to a forwarded post, b/c it feels like i'm playing with someone who doesn't really want to play with me): sure, one can always pooh-pooh the sound and fury of intellectual-artistic work, esp. work that works at some intellectual remove from popular forms (i.e., as i read that post, brathwaite's presumably "impenetrable collages," and less so, walcott's presumably "biblical rhythms") by observing that the lay public doesn't participate directly in same, aren't paying attention, and have opted instead to listen to their radios... part of me wants to say, SO WHAT?... so popular culture is, uhm, popular (yeah, a tautology), but that means that it's more vital than cultural forms that are *not* popular?... i'm sure the former will come as a Major Insight to those of us who struggle for that baker's dozen readership (as above)... as to the latter--- the real question to be asked is this: would it behoove said popular cultural audience to have been able to read and comment on both walcott and brathwaite? (assuming that putting things this way isn't already a condescension)... do walcott and brathwaite's contributions to the public sphere bleed off (sorry) in ways that benefit said culture-at-large?... perhaps this is something of a literacy question, at its root... but having made this speculative leap, the next question that emerges (pour moi) is whether, given such a literacy reality, walcott or brathwaite might turn out to be the more challenging... or to put it another way, whether one writer speaks to context in more bracing terms, with more positive net effect... and again, i'm pretty sure that this rather functional way of putting things is bound to irk some of you on this list, for whom the artistic process is not to be questioned in terms of said net effect (am i wrong?)... seen in this light, one can perhaps make certain claims for brathwaite's work over and against walcott's (i would mself, though it's walcott who holds that nobel)... but whatever the case, to claim that both writers are overshadowed by calypso music, or disregarded by the workaday "masses," strikes me as something of a specious nod toward something like orality, at worst, and (as i say) a tautology, at best... and i'm the last guy in the world to think that writing something a certain way automatically alters social reality for the better, or for the worse... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 22:08:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: working class poet MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Laurie McCrae wrote "Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the working class intellectual. This person was self-educated with the help of the public library and the numerous public offerings available then through labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, and others. This worker read poetry..." This person is alive and well (at least in other countries) even now, at least as a reader even though mass market and academic houses, journals, and web outlets don't tend to seek him or her out. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:15:03 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENTS IN MEMORIAM JOHN WIENERS JANUARY 6TH 1934 =8B MARCH 1ST 2002 http://tomraworth.com/wieners.html MARCH 10, SUNDAY [3:30 PM] A CELEBRATION FOR POET ZOE ANGLESEY: EIGHT POETS FOR ZOE THE LAUNCH OF WWW.ALLENGINSBERG.ORG NEW ISSUE OF POETS & POEMS FEATURING WORK BY JOHN KEENE, JANICE LOWE, CHRISTOPHER STACKHOUSE WWW.POETRYPROJECT.COM/POETS.HTML FOR MORE INFO VISIT WWW.POETRYPROJECT.COM/ANNOUNCEMENTS.HTML. ******************** IN MEMORIAM JOHN WIENERS January 6th 1934 =8B March 1st 2002 The wonderful poet John Wieners whose books include Selected Poems 1958-198= 4 (Black Sparrow Press, 1986) passed away on March 1st in Boston. Please visi= t the dedicated link at http://tomraworth.com/wieners.html for more information. Even tho all the pencils break and all the typewriters hang in The Pawnshop Window, words go on. And their instruments with them. Today I am one of the= m and I dress in a red robe. - John Joseph Wieners, Journal, 1958/59 MARCH 3, SUNDAY [3 - 7 PM] A MEMORIAL TRIBUTE TO FIELDING DAWSON (1930-2002) On the afternoon of Sunday, March 3rd, the Poetry Project will hold a Memorial Tribute to the writer, teacher and poet, Fielding Dawson, who passed away on January 5th, 2002, will take place at The Poetry Project fro= m 3 to 7 pm. Readers include: Alex Albright, Vyt Bakaitis, Mark Begley, Carol Berge, Josie Clare, Andy Heugel, William Honey, Harvey Isaac, Hettie Jones, Jerry Kelly, Basil King, Martha King, D.H. Melhem, Maureen Owen, Jimmy Owens, Anthony Papa, Donal Phelps, Eric Waters, Bernard White MARCH 10, SUNDAY [3:30 PM] A CELEBRATION FOR POET ZOE ANGLESEY: EIGHT POETS FOR ZOE On Sunday, March 10th at 3:30 PM, The Poetry Project at 131 E. 10th St. @ 2nd Ave. will host A Celebration for Poet Zoe Anglesey featuring: CORNELIUS EADY BOB HOLMAN KAREN SWENSON SUHEIR HAMMAD JENNIFER CLEMENT LINDA GREGG FORREST GANDER YUSEF KOMUNYAKAA Refreshments provided by La Palapa Restaurant. $10 Contribution. Funds raised will contribute to medical expnses incurred by Zoe Anglesey who is fighting lung cancer. THE LAUNCH OF WWW.ALLENGINSBERG.ORG The Allen Ginsberg Trust of New York, with the development firm dataWonk, Inc. of San Francisco, announce the launch of www.allenginsberg.org. "One o= f Ginsberg's highest callings was to teach and the Web as a medium offers unprecedented ability to disseminate and impart," says Trust director Bob Rosenthal. At the heart of the site are two exciting features: The Lifeline, a choronology of important events about Ginsberg and the Beats, and the Library, a repository intended for research that includes manuscripts, text= , audio and video clips, photographs and art works. The Library is intended t= o grow substantially over time to include thousands of items, "so that those wishing to research Ginsberg's life and work would experience as little misinterpretation as possible." FEB/MAR ISSUE OF POETS & POEMS: www.poetryproject.com/poets.html Featuring poems by John Keene and Janice Lowe, and line drawings by Christopher Stackhouse. Forthcoming issues to feature Jena Osman, Renee Gladman, Joan Retallack, Sawako Nakayasu and more. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 14:20:06 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT EVENTS2 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit POETRY PROJECT EVENTS MARCH 8, FRIDAY [10:30 PM] P.O.W. POETS OF WAR MARCH 11, MONDAY [8:00 PM] SARAH MANGUSO and REBECCA REYNOLDS MARCH 13, WEDNESDAY [8:00 PM] A BENEFIT FOR POET'S IN NEED featuring NORMAN FISCHER and LESLIE SCALAPINO, as well as special guests including RON PADGETT and CHARLES BERNSTEIN MARCH 15, FRIDAY [10:30 PM] SHORT FILMS,VIDEOS, AND THE VOCABULARY OF THE MOVING IMAGE FOR MORE INFO VISIT: WWW.POETRYPROJECT.COM/CALENDAR.HTML **************** MARCH 8, FRIDAY P.O.W. POETS OF WAR POW's: Poets of War, a performance collective conceived by Galinsky and Christopher Stackhouse, is a group of poet performers who stand against the state of seige in the USA and bring the feelings of anxiety and anger associated with the current oppression, to the stage of St. Mark's Poetry Project. Featuring Lisa Jessie Peterson, Dennis Jordan, Spyro, Taylor Mead, Zero Boy, Girlbomb, Arie Love, Latasha Natasha Diggs, video by Peter Shapiro and more + surprise musical guests. More info at galinskyplace.com [10:30 pm] MARCH 11, MONDAY SARAH MANGUSO and REBECCA REYNOLDS SARAH MANGUSO is the author of The Captain Lands in Paradise (Alice James, 2002). Her poems have appeared in The American Poetry Review, The Best American Poetry, Chicago Review, The New Republic, and other journals. She lives in Brooklyn. REBECCA REYNOLDS' is the author of Daughter of the Hangnail (New Issues Press 1997) and Moon Hotel, scheduled to be published by New Issues Press. Her work has appeared in Third Coast, American Letters & Commentary, Caliban and other journals. She is Assistant Dean at Douglass College, the women's college of Rutgers University, and teaches creative writing at Rutgers. [8:00 p.m.] MARCH 13, WEDNESDAY A BENEFIT FOR POET'S IN NEED featuring NORMAN FISCHER and LESLIE SCALAPINO, as well as special guests including RON PADGETT and CHARLES BERNSTEIN Poets In Need is a nonprofit organization providing emergency assistance to poets who have an established presence in the literary community as innovators in the field and a substantive body of published work. As editor of O Books, LESLIE SCALAPINO has brought out more than 100 titles of contemporary poetry and is the author of more than 15 books of poetry including The Return of Painting (Dia Art), Way (North Point) R-hu (Atelos), How Phenomena Appear to Unfold (Potes & Poets) and Orchid Jetsam. Poet and Zen priest NORMAN FISCHER is the author of nine books of poetry, including Success (Singing Horse) and Precisely the Point Being Made (O Books/Chax). Opening to You: Zen-Inspired Translations of the Psalms has just been published by Penguin. [8:00 p.m.] MARCH 15, FRIDAY SHORT FILMS,VIDEOS, AND THE VOCABULARY OF THE MOVING IMAGE This evening presents a brief survey of diverse approaches to short film and video making. All of the work presented has been either shot on video, or shot on film and transfered to video. Scheduled films by directors: ALISON MCDONALD, ANDY WATTS, PETER SCHAPIRO and others, with a list of titles TBA. [10:30 pm] -- Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $7, $4 for students and seniors, and $3 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, the corner of 2nd Avenue and 10th Street in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or visit our Web site at http://www.poetryproject.com. If you are currently on our email list and would like to be on our regular mailing list (so you can receive a sample issue of The Poetry Project Newsletter for FREE), just reply to this email with your full name and address. Hope to hear from you soon!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 17:41:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <146.a7c9eed.29b59eb7@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hmmm, I agree, but disagree -- we (poets of which I've been accused of being) have the means of production meaning we put our asses in a chair and write, but there are a whole assload (sorry, I'm a fan of the expression for reasons which are probably only too clear) of things (boy, that's specific) that contribute to and contextualize that production. Most obviously, the traditional means of distribution (print publication) over which most poets don't have control. Electronic distribution (email, web-sites, etc. (self-pub too though it doesn't have to be e-pubbin') seems to provide more control, but still costs dinero. As does the act of producing poetry costs bucks even if publication or distribution aren't goals. Since there is little money that directly comes from publishing poems (most advances/awards are well below 5 grand (well, well, well even)? (though there is the indirect money (i.e. teaching jobs, readings, etc.))) there has to be some money coming from somewhere to keep said poet alive and physically and mentally fit enough to write and let alone have the time to do the act. So while we may own our brains, butts, and hands (hopefully some paper and a few pens too) in some senses we're also owned and at the mercy of many others at the same time also as well tambien. In terms of "want" well there's the idea of poetry (general art (seargent maybe too)) as a part of a culture's cultural capital (look, look -- we're so civilized. Phooey on you, Gandhi.......... Ken > >But a poet absolutely owns his or her means of production --for a "product" >which essentially nobody wants. How do you deal with that? > >Murat > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 18:35:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George, you went ahead and did it! (v. end of original message). Was this operation inspired by my recent visit--I cd sense you sneaking peeks while we were in that chain urinal. I trust you will now meet with wider acceptance. Long John Sliver. -----Original Message----- From: George Bowering To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 7:54 PM Subject: Re: rejected by the editors of PomPom # 2: NUMBAH FUNKTION! >>For some years, I followed a practice of posting poems that had been >>rejected by >>magazines in other magazines -- There was that one delightful time, too, when >>the editor of a magazine came up to me at a reading to tell me how much she >>loved one of the poems I'd read and to ask me to let her publish it. I didn't >>remind her that she'd rejected the same poem two years earlier. Back in the >>70s, Coach House Press published an anthology containing one poem by each poet >>whose book ms. they'd been unable to publish. It was a quite good book if >>memory serves. > > > >Please. It was supposed to be an anti-slushpile joke. > >>Aldon L. Nielsen >>Kelly Professor of American Literature >>The Pennsylvania State University >>116 Burrowes >>University Park, PA 16802-6200 >> >>(814) 865-0091 > > >-- >George Bowering >Bigger than I was. >Fax 604-266-9000 > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 21:47:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020305071222.00a1d230@mail> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > i don't agree on the theocratic fascism stuff. In fact, Ron, what *is* theocratic fascism? I don't see either theocracy (direct rule by a divine power) or fascism in the U.S. Seems to kind of -- surely you don't intend this, but -- soften the historical reality of fascism. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:03:17 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Susan Graham 1'20" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Susan Graham 1'20" Image: My me san aham. e's e icket. ruggles move r shirt. e lps m. ueezes r easts. lls r nts f. e tries lp m. e's anding. n't lp . ey me wn. e panties me wn. u nd is. esn't ther . e's ked. She ngers rself. ngers r. e ts r othes . 's ked. He's sturbating. mes. rays ite. e's e d. e's naked. u nd lming. don't nd. e reads r gs. es close . me san aham. e rns er. reads r s. e camera es ose . e's ting e tel. u ke is tel. I like ll ough. u nd lming. don't nd. u nd showing ur nt. don't re. y e u oking ke at. I think u're sessed . u're llowing erywhere. e's e toilet. e's ssing e ilet. oseup r ss. u nd filming. don't re. me san aham. at e u ing. e closes e or. y d u at. was noyed. y re u noyed. You're llowing erywhere. d u nd lming u ssing. I don't nd. u nd owing is. don't re. ow ur breasts. nger urself. e's ked e d. e ngers rself. in d t. e es d t. read ur gs der. e reads r legs. n take shower w. e es e ower. e's ked. name san aham. e's e icket. ruggles move r shirt. e lps m. ueezes r easts. lls r nts f. e tries lp m. e's anding. n't lp . ey me wn. e panties me wn. u nd is. esn't ther . e's ked. She ngers rself. ngers r. Sound: what's your na nam susan gra doin he here move here i was born come to me i didn't how do you like the hotge seems alri are you gla yu seems alri are you gla yu it seem are you gla yu ca range no yu squeeze yu because i thot it did you think it wa painful done it before bukit different done it before marked what's your na may name is susa gra because i was bor ome to me ive here you ove here i didn't i was born _ Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:18:50 +0100 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Re: class MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>Caribbean-American poet >>James J=anus Henderson Is this a joke about the suppressed angry lower class stereotype who would feel the need to burst out obscenities during a poem? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 00:15:48 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020305071222.00a1d230@mail> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > Kiss kiss, > Mary Jane Weed One of my dreams -- I am a simple person with uncomplicated dreams -- is to visit Gwyn in D.C. and get high. But then, I would likely visit any of you anywhere in order to get high, so maybe this isn't about Gwyn. Will somebody help me get high? -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 10:24:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Whitman and the old sentence In-Reply-To: <000801c1c44f$e5a46020$23780f3f@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit "Like the journalists Whitman and Sandburg and others were/are, their free verse was sparse on connectives, subordinate clauses--relying instead on dramatic juxtaposition of simple sentences. As they worked, they worked it through, working it further." interesting.... many of Whitman's sentences are anything but simple... POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: >Like the journalists Whitman and Sandburg and others were/are, their >free >verse was sparse on connectives, subordinate clauses--relying >instead on >dramatic juxtaposition of simple sentences. As they worked, they >worked it >through, working it further. > >And the editorials of the day ran to call their work "collocations of >words", "ragged lines", "imprudent affronts to the poetry-loving >public", >and my personal favorite, "unregulated word eruptions". > >Yes, the form of poetry, or seeming lack thereof, causes irritation >(yes!), >but the working-class content and use of vernacular grates as well. > >Maybe more of us are "more at home in the brickyard than on the >slopes of >Parnassus." Most of us now seem to be placeless, translators of the >nontraditional. Rather than fixed in the order of conning Grecian >urns, our >lineage is fluid, nomadic, transitional. But once, at least, we were >"home", >and our translating powers rhizome from there, coming to be in large >part >from necessity, and as such, some of us find our spiritual worth in >the >brickyard, some in Parnassus...still more of us... as Garfield, >beautiful >Garfield...in the limbo of both. > >Gerald >----- Original Message ----- >From: "laurie macrae" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 6:22 PM >Subject: John Wiener and the Working Class poet > > >> In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on >> campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San >> Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of >> you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my >> poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there >> for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John >> Wiener though. >> Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli >> Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the >> event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy >> handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so >> vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience >> response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be >> addressing a private spectre, and we all felt >> privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private >> transaction. >> >> Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there >> existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the >> working class intellectual. This person was >> self-educated with the help of the public library and >> the numerous public offerings available then through >> labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, >> and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized >> it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. >> This was the era of memorization in school too, and my >> parents learned many, many poems by heart while they >> were still in school. >> Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to >> be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, >> it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message >> of the poem,it loses some of it's power. >> You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel >> Linsay,but there was and there remains a >> class-consciousness in it that moved working men and >> women of my parents generation, and made them believe >> that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel >> Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his >> work, sometimes, for dinner. >> I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about >> "working class poets" these last few days. It appears >> that this predominantly academic list really believes >> that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop >> writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly >> victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford >> Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the >> beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, >> the working class guy who wanted to play the violin >> but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. >> >> The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron >> Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class >> perspective,is always accessable. I read him first >> without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I >> undertook to learn about it because of him. I still >> think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or >> later he will give us the last word here. >> Laurie Macrae >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball >> http://sports.yahoo.com >> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:49:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron D Levy Subject: [slought] Marjorie Welish Conference - April 5, 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE -------------------------- Marjorie Welish Conference Friday, April 5, 2002; 10:00 am - 4:00 pm Houston Hall, University of Pennsylvania http://slought.net/toc/conferences/welish/ Speakers include: Thomas Zummer, Keith Tuma, Osvaldo Romberg, Jean-Michel Rabat=E9, Bob Perelman, Joseph Masheck, Aaron Levy, Norma Cole Pre-respondents include: Chris Tysh, Frances Richard, Matthew Jelacic, Ron Janssen, Carla Harryman, Olivier Gourvil, Deborah Gans, Kenneth Baker Conference curated by Jean-Michel Rabat=E9 and Aaron Levy. With Andrew Zitcer. -------------------------- Information/online retrospective: http://slought.net/toc/conferences/welish/ http://slought.net/toc/exhibitions/diga/welish/ -------------------------- Marjorie Welish, a poet, painter and art critic, has contributed to several volumes on contemporary art and theory, including Writing the Image After Roland Barthes, and Uncontrollable Beauty: Toward a New Aesthetics. Her selected criticism appears in Signifying Art: Essays on Art after 1960 (Cambridge University Press, 1999). She is the author of The Annotated "Here" and Selected Poems (Coffeehouse Press, 2000). She exhibits her paintings frequently in New York. A Slought Networks Conference, in collaboration with the Office of Student Life at the University of Pennsylvania. Directions, book purchase information available online. Contact: info@slought.net ___________________ http://slought.net/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:50:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron D Levy Subject: [slought] Alan Davies & Miles Champion: e-book & poet's listserv MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII -------------------------- Announcing DON'T KNOW ALAN by Alan Davies with Miles Champion: a new E-Book & Poet's Listserv DON'T KNOW ALAN (69 pp., 339K, PDF) is an e-book by Alan Davies with Miles Champion, available online and for free download from Slought Books. To join the ALAN DAVIES LISTSERV, run by the poet, and to read DON'T KNOW ALAN, go to: http://slought.net/toc/series/DontKnow/Alan/ Alan Davies is author of over fifteen books, including LIFE (forthcoming, O Books). Miles Champion's THREE BELL ZERO was recently published by Roof. DON'T KNOW is a new ebook and poet's listserv occasional series. Each release will feature an e-book and listserv run by the poet. Ebooks and listserv postings will be archived for free download and/or browsing at http://slought.net/toc/series/DontKnow/ Louis Cabri (lcabri@slought.net), Aaron Levy (adlevy@slought.net), curators. http://slought.net/ ___________________ http://slought.net/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 15:59:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Fwd: Jacques Roubaud and Keith Waldrop read in NYC (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Forwarded message from Jordan Davis ----- Subject: Jacques Roubaud and Keith Waldrop read in NYC (fwd) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 14:59:36 -0500 (EST) JACQUES ROUBAUD and KEITH WALDROP will read at Teachers & Writers Collaborative SATURDAY, MARCH 23 at 7 pm (doors close at 7.35); 5 Union Square West, 7th Floor. Free entry. Wine and cheese will follow. Jacques ROUBAUD is a French poet and mathematician born in 1932. After teaching Mathematics at the University of Paris X Nanterre beginning in 1970, Roubaud started publishing numerous books of poetry and prose. He has published in all genres: prose, theater and poetry. He is one of the most accomplished members of Oulipo, the workshop for experimental literature. He is also the president of the Association Georges Perec. He has translated Lewis Caroll's Hunting of the Snark and contemporary American poetry into French. Most of his translated works are published by Dalkey Archive, including The Plurality of Worlds of Lewis, Hortense in Exile, Hortense is Abducted, Some Thing Black and The Great Fire of London. See www.frenchculture.org/books/tours/index.html for more details. Keith WALDROP is author of numerous collections of poetry and is the translator of The Selected Poems of Edmond Jabes, as well as works by Claude Royet-Journoud, Anne-Marie Albiach and Jean Grosjean. He has received fellowships from the National Endowment for the Arts and DAAD (Berlin). His titles include Hegel's Family, The Opposite of Letting the Mind Wander: Selected Poems and a Few Songs, Shipwreck in Haven, The Balustrade, Light While There is Light, The Locality Principle, Analogies of Escape and Haunt. He teaches at Brown University as is one of the publishers of Burning Deck Press. See www.burningdeck.com for more details. ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 13:15:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: ** NOTICE ** Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IN MEMORIAM JOHN WIENERS, 1934-2002 http://tomraworth.com/wieners.html IN MEMORIAM FIELDING DAWSON, 1930-2002 http://tomraworth.com/fee.html =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 13:51:42 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael amberwind Subject: Some Notes Tow MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii A collaborative poem in progress. Please add, subtract, multiply, answer or refute as you will. ******************************************** Some Notes Towards Last Night’s Conversation Text as text is uninterruptible tyranny. Poetry is failure. Tyranny as text is poetry. Poetry is uninterruptible. Poetry is terrible. Interrupting terror, words in postmodernity are injected with meaning the way "foodness" is injected into a Big Mac (tm). Meaning, with injected postmodernity, is part of the blue print (sic) of poetry. Its architecture is inherently unstable. "The rise of capitalism parallels the advance of romanticism..." - John Ashbery. Poetry is the refutation of purity, so don't shoot until you see the whites of their lives. Reader = Text. All the right space at the white margins. In the margins of the book I purchased there are notes written in black pen for the first thirty pages. I guess they ran outta steam, or maybe were so taken by the spell of the text, they were overcome and could write no more. Maybe they were interrupted with a very important phone call. "Too many poets are like middle aged mothers trying to get their kids to eat too much cooked meat..." - Frank O'Hara The better you get, the more some uppity youngin' wants to see if you are as fast on the draw as everyone says. So you might as well lay low, wait for all your enemies to ping each other off in the crossfire, so you can escape town with the gold, the horses, and if you are lucky, the school-marm. "At a Dada exhibition in Dusseldorf, I was impressed that though Schwitters and Picabia and the others had all become artists with the passing of time, Duchamp's work remained unacceptable as art." - John Cage The parallel of romanticism is asylum. Neo-Formalism is stage hypnosis attempting to convince you that the last one-hundred and fifty years of poetry, the best parts of it anyways, did not occur. "When you wake up, you will giggle with rapturous glee at a well transposed trochee and iambic foot." If I shoot myself in the iambic foot, maybe I can avoid the draft. I cannot read a sonnet for the same reason I cannot enter the abode of someone over the age of seventy-five without familial duties being involved in some way. I am certain I am losing much wisdom in this, but the smell! "We didn't teach verse writing skills. We were all emotionally bankrupt and went around asking the students for love. - Allen Ginsberg There are only so many open spaces available in this racket. If one in ten million people were poets, and each poet wrote a volume of poems every ten years, you would have to read a thousand books of poetry a year just to keep up. A book of poems for breakfast. A book of poems for lunch. A book of poems for dinner. C'est impossible! My math could be wrong on that. Yeats was bad at math, too, and Einstein was, according to the legend, a poor speller. Physics knows nothing of language. The fall of John Ashbery parallels with the advance of Neo-Formalism. "You wouldn't believe how much television is purely Satanic." - Overheard at a local soup kitchen John Cage's mesostics are the most pure poems of this century. They are total gestures that re-align all previous understandings of text. There has to be a way to make things better for everybody. Rhyme = Regression. Slant Rhyme = Joyful Detour. Poetry is not an experience. It is the clear solution into which language is dissolved (de-solved). Calm and cool panoptics intensity. Poetry as compared to music is sadly lacking. It fails on the level of pure abstraction. The only upside about this is that poetry can be utterly indigestible. Pound's "Cantos" are a precursor to digitalized, sampled electronica compositions. The essence of capitalism is the presence of places wherein you are not permitted to wear jeans after a certain hour. The rise of workshop verse parallels the advance of the automobile. “The kind of poetry I want is not a happy art with uplifting messages and easy to understand emotions. I want a poetry that's bad for you.” -Charles Bernstein A poet may wish to write utterly personal poems anyone might have written. Anthologies are filled with such poems. Anthologies are the cryogenic stasis of poetry, hurtling through the universe (universities) in a well-built rocket ship. Plain text is the best font of all. Enjoy poetry, you will never get to read enough of it, after all. Poetry is a joy. Sometimes it manages to be nearly as good as television. Know that you exist, and enjoy the contours of your mind. Don’t strain too hard. Read “The Art of Poetry” by Kenneth Koch. That should take you as much time as watching a sitcom, though you can do both, reading the poem during the commercials. Don’t parody yourself. Text = Interlocutory Cremation (sometimes). Don’t call yourself an angel for not “selling out” when no-one is buying. Capitalism will catch up with you soon enough. Meaning is a plastic baggie used to carry home a fish. Clear, malleable, plastic, imprisoning, revealing, and provisional. I’ll shut up now. ===== ...I am a real poet. My poem is finished and I haven't mentioned orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 20:06:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael amberwind Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I can empathise with yr situation in a true Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. What you said about working people often having more time is very much true. Much of my time and schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford transportation, and so much of your life is dependant on the schedules and time frames of others. You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In high school I had what would probably now be called ADD, though in truth it was simply boredom. I would spend days cutting classes and head to the university library, perusing the stacks, reading whatever came to me. No High School means no University means No job tho lots of the people I know with those things are in little better financial shape than I am in. There is a definite class/culture dividing line. This is a University town. People who go to University, or teach there, do *not* tend to reach out to the literary community as a whole. I have lived in various missions, so I know how hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them - would get you through the night. I've run into people who write "poems" at the lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". One time when I was bone broke, and living in the mission in another city, so I didn't even have friends to rely on, I found that the experience, the utter downward pull of the earth, was an opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one more gentle and more serious. I am not sure how poetry can "make things better." If poetry had the power to do that, I would be suspicious of it. I am reminded that before the industrial revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people to read to them while they worked. Who could even imagine such a thing today? Now I find myself in a strange place. On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind of "social climbing". Education, in the classical sense, ought to be about the building of character and the soul. Of course it is so far from that ideal so as to be laughable. On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am living at right now. Most of the people I meet who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am considering enrolling in University and getting a degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - only in $30 000 of debt. Most of the poor people I know are utterly uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and good weed beats a bad poem any day. I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great deal from the language, beat and avant garde poetics, from several angles. But I do know that if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > From: Millie Niss > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > to be (race & nationality > count!) > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > but working class is > sometimes a strange notion compared to > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > working class but I am poor... > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > father's house > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > problmes dealt with > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > are professionals (though > neither is working and both are in precarious > financial situations) & I > graduated from Columbia > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > and was trying to get > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > projects, so we had something > in common... > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > like the problems of the > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > often at decent union rates. > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > a low wage earner (mostly > because Social Security was taking back half my > earnings), but I wasn't in > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > was still below the poverty > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > who are Working, paradoxically, > have more time than those who are impoverished. > When you are working, you > can come home after work to your own (rented) > apartment for a spot of poetry > or even to write poetry. > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > went away, but that's because > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > did not mean moving back into > a home with many children & grandchildren > milling around and no bedroom of > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > etc. That is due to not being > working class, I guess-- my father may have > little income now, but like many > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > nice, spacious apartment... > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > and am talking about are > people who fall from the ranks of the working > class down into total poverty. > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > walk around all day maybe. > because your shelter kicks you out during the > day, but you have to carry > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > and you don't smell bad, you > can go in a library, and then you might be able > to read poetry, but you > probably don't because you are so tired from no > sleep because the room held > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > coughed. 2 talked all night to > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > had managed to sneak in a man > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > library but you have taught > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > the book at the right distance > from your face because you get kicked out of > libraries if you sleep... And > then it's time for the big line to get back > into the shelter and eat a > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > lights off at some absurdly > early hour which no one complains about... > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > patchwork of programs in order to > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > spend inordinate amounts of > time waiting in offices for those programs. > They spend their lives sitting > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > have to quit the job or get > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > to get antibiotics for a > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > easily spend all day there, and > then half the time, no matter how minor your > complaint, instead of treating > it they send you for more tests and to > specialists, so that each visit to > primary care balloons into three tests and > visits to two specialists and you > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > appointments. > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > Security or at the Food Stamp > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > agency... > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > poetry, the way working class > people do, but when they do, I would hope > they'd want something ANGRY, like > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > or what not, but I bet the > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > Digest (they read the Readers' > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > only because that's what's > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > to write poetry as teenagers, > at least the women, and might become interested > again if they didn't have to > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > medical care or enough money for > food every single day. I don't know that these > experiences make good poetry > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > not myself usually that taken > with "sincere" work by people who have really > suffered, although someotimes > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > impressed, as with early AIDS > poems or poetry by people under siege in > Sarajevo or something. But one is > impressed on a scale other than the usual > poetic scale-- it's more being > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > situation who would stop and > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > poem. (If it is really bad, > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > kind of testimonial poems that > are perfectly good, just predictable and > ordinary in their use of language.) > > Millie > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > Behalf Of megan minka lola > camille roy > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > to be (race & nationality > count!) > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > pursues radical invention, > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > mainstream not because you > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > never inherited a penny." > > (magee) > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > white american poets but > breaks down internationally and racially. > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > very queer spoken word > scene that is working class and white. Not much > interest in theory. > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > experience is suspicious > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > itty-bitty presentation > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > a woman I actually > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > you talking about!!?! > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > have been putting together > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > This is one hell of rich > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > follow the paradigm of > white trust fund babies toying with > abstraction. WHY. > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > literary one. There's been a lot of > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > (e.g. Said) which > has been hella useful to people coming to > consciousness about the > political forces that locate them in their > lives. The white (american) > working class has not been gotten such > persuasive and transformative > analyses. WHY NOT. > > camille roy > > > > > -- ===== ...I am a real poet. My poem is finished and I haven't mentioned orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 00:37:35 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tisa Bryant Subject: Angela Davis Hosts "Jazz Women" Panel in SF In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit FYI ---------- SFJAZZ SPRING SEASON 2002 SALUTES "JAZZ WOMEN" SFJAZZ celebrates Women's History Month by kicking off its third annual Spring Season of concerts, films, family matinees and more with a week-long tribute to great "Jazz Women" of yesterday and today. The Season opens on MARCH 19 with a special panel discussion on "Women in Jazz" - the legacy of their contributions, the obstacles they've faced, and where they're headed in the future. The panel will be led by scholar/poet/activist Dr. Angela Davis, author of "Blues Legacies and Black Feminism: Gertrude 'Ma' Rainey, Bessie Smith, and Billie Holiday," and will also include Professor Sherrie Tucker, author of "Swing Shift: 'All-Girl' Bands of the 1940s"; pianist/composer Mary Watkins; bandleader and acclaimed composer/arranger Maria Schneider; and drummer Susie Ibarra. Tickets are $10. Please contact Christina Coughlin directly about group discounts. For tickets & more information, visit http://www.sfjazz.org/html/events/ss2002/shows/0319panel.htm or call 415-776-1999 "Jazz Women" continues on MARCH 20 with a one-time-only film program of rare archival footage showcasing some of the "founding mothers" of jazz, such as Mary Lou Williams, Melba Liston and Hazel Scott. Then on MARCH 21, the acclaimed Marilyn Crispell Trio featuring Gary Peacock and Paul Motian shares a bill with New York-based percussionist Susie Ibarra's Quartet. Crispell's trio "has made two of the finest piano trio albums in recent memory," according to The New York Times. On MARCH 22, the Maria Schneider Orchestra will perform a mixed program of Scheider's own highly praised compositions (she's been named Down Beat "Arranger of the Year" for two consecutive years), along with the beloved "Porgy and Bess" charts prepared by her late mentor, Gil Evans, for the great Miles Davis. And on Saturday, MARCH 23, Cassandra Wilson -- "America's best singer" (Time) -- comes to San Francisco to launch the national tour for her brand new CD, Belly of the Sun, a collection of originals and utterly distinctive revisitations of classic tunes by Bob Dylan, the Band, Antonio Carlos Jobim, and Caetano Veloso. On MARCH 24, in the afternoon, Jane Bunnett & Spirits of Havana will perform a Family Matinee blending their Cuban-flavored Latin Jazz with commentary and questions from the audience. Kids are welcome and discounted rates are available for those under 18. Finally, on MARCH 24 in the evening, soprano saxophonist Jane Bunnett & her Spirits of Havana again take the stage with their infectious Cuban rhythms -- this time sharing a bill with another heralded soprano saxophonist, Jane Ira Bloom, "a formidable improviser with a full-blooded tone that sets her apart" (The New Yorker). For more information on "Jazz Women" or the SFJAZZ Spring Season 2002, visit: http://www.sfjazz.org/html/events/ss2002/articles/women.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 05:11:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Call for work, Baseball issue of Boog City MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all, The right honorable Douglas Rothschild is editing the upcoming baseball issue of Boog City, and he (and I) would dig to see some baseball words and art sent this way. Any and all considered. Issue will feature work from Basil King and Elinor Nauen, among others. Deadline: March 24 Via email to: drothschild@jjay.cuny.edu or mail to: David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 attn: baseball issue Thanks, david -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 T: (212) 206-8899 F: (212) 206-9982 booglit@theeastvillageeye.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:26:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: a working-class poet is something to be Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Here's how the IWW decides how to figure out your social situation. It's their first question on eligibility for membership: "You must be a worker (not an employer), and you cannot have the power to hire and/or fire." Simple. Nothing about how much you earn, etc., though dues are keyed to that. Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 11:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Appeal for subscribers: Douglas Oliver memorial volume MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I thought this appeal would be of interest to members of this list. --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://pages.sprint.ca/ndorward/files/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Riley" Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: Appeal for subscribers A MEETING FOR DOUGLAS OLIVER You may already know that we decided to put together a collection to document and commemorate the meeting which took place in London on 22nd October 2000 in memory of Douglas Oliver. All the texts which were specially written for that event have been collected, and those who on the night read only from the works of Douglas Oliver have provided new or reprinted texts. The editing is now completed, and the book, titled as above, contains poems by John James, David Chaloner, Wendy Mulford, Peter Riley, Allen Fisher, Tony Lopez, Ken Edwards, Kelvin Corcoran, Pete Smith, and Nicholas Johnson, as well as prose about or concerning Doug by John Hall, Kevin Nolan and Denise Riley, and a new Dante translation by Andrew Brewerton. The cover is designed by Julia Ball. It will be published by infernal methods in collaboration with Street Editions and Poetical Histories. The next stage has presented some problems, because we would prefer this book to be produced to a standard of quality and elegance befitting its occasion. For this we need to raise more money than we can as individuals contribute. We are therefore seeking subscribers to this edition, and we suggest a suitable contribution might be in the region of £20 to £50, though amounts above and below these will not of course be refused. If you feel able to contribute, please send your payment to Peter Riley at 27, Sturton Street, Cambridge CB1 2QG, UK, cheques made out to "Peter Riley (Books)". All subscriptions will be acknowledged in print, unless requested otherwise. The provisional closing date for subscriptions is Easter 2002. THE PUBLISHERS infernal methods (Nigel Wheale) Poetical Histories (Peter Riley) Street Editions (Wendy Mulford) (Equivalent U.S. dollar cheques are acceptable. If sending a cheque in any other non-Sterling currency including Euros please bear in mind that we shall probably have to pay £5 of it to the bank.) ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 03:17:47 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Subject: xStream -- A NEW POETRY EZINE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii xStream -- A NEW POETRY EZINE xStream is a new ezine for experimental poetry. It is more concentrated to procedural writing, computer-generated texts, collage, found poems, cut-ups etc, although any kind of poetry is welcome. xStream has also an experimental editing policy. All submissions are handled automatically by computer and some choices are machine-made. Please submit your works between 1st and 4th of every month, starting from April 2002. For Issue #0 you can submit immediately, till 15th March 2002. Detailed instructions from web site. Because of the low budget I have constructed the web site to free (Yahoo) site, so there are obligatory ads. In future I have planned to program the editing fully automatic using self-adaptive neural networks and other means, to see and experiment how well the machine can do the job. So hopefully this is an ezine which will continue publishing as long as there is electricity (or Yahoo works). Submissions to xstreamezine@yahoo.com. Other contacts, comments, suggestions to xstreameditor@yahoo.com. Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xStream WWW: http://www.geocities.com/xstreamezine email: xstreameditor@yahoo.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:05:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Poetics List Administration Subject: Fwd: Bruce Andrews @ POL MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ----- Forwarded message from EFROST@FORDHAM.EDU ----- From: EFROST@FORDHAM.EDU Subject: Bruce Andrews @ POL Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 13:16:01 -0500 Please come to a reading by BRUCE ANDREWS at Poets Out Loud Monday March 18, 7:30 p.m. Fordham University at Lincoln Center 113 West 60th St. (at Columbus) 12th Floor Lounge Reception to follow Books will be available for purchase & signing General admission $5 (students $3) For further information, please call POL 212-636-6792 ----- End forwarded message ----- ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:33:08 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vgdp@AOL.COM Subject: Blues Women Speak - March 21 - 14th St Y - Womens History Month Comments: To: philip@richnet.net, philip@urban-spaghetti.com, PhillipJa@aol.com, PHILOMENE@aol.com, Philopholm@aol.com, phirefly@geocities.com, phishman9@yahoo.com, phlixx@hotmail.com, phloydius@yahoo.com, phoenix3@erols.com, Picasso@huntel.net, pickle@ctc.net, piggywiggie@geocities.com, pine_ridge_ss@geocities.com, pingc@juno.com, PinkCamo@aol.com, pinky@redcity.demon.co.uk, piper@innercite.com, piscesgrl@hotmail.com, pith@anyman.com, PJ112575@aol.com, pjarrowsmith@yahoo.co.uk, pjmartin@earthlink.net, pkc@writeme.com, pksea@nauticom.net, pla@sas.upenn.edu, plambert@echonyc.com, PLB@technologist.com, pleiades@ix.netcom.com, plunk1@prodigy.net, pmacedo@erols.com, pmbilger@geocities.com, pmcnutt@prodigy.net, pmorris@thomasjpaul.com, pmr@julliard.edu, pnolan@ix.netcom.com, pny33@hotmail.com, Podium2@aol.com, poe@writeme.com, poem@duifje.demon.nl, poem2get@flash.net, poem42@hotmail.com, poeme1@email.msn.com, poemme@hotmail.com, poems@mandy.co.uk, poems@thekman.com, poet@droz.net, poet@ticnet.com, poet_sukhinder@hotmail.com, POETAMELIE@aol.com, Poetcall@aol.com, poetcd@yahoo.com, poetdevine@yahoo.com, Poetennis1@aol.com, poetess77@hotmail.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit WhY Women/WhY Words The 14th St Y of the Educational Alliance Veronica Golos, Poet in Residence and Jacqueline Johnson present for Women's History Month: Hear Me Talkin' to You: BluesWomenSpeak with Phebus Etienne, Veronica Golos, Jacqueline Johnson, Patricia Smith, Sheree Renee Thomas Music by Rhythms of Aqua Hosted by Ritu Kalra THURSDAY, MARCH 21, 7:30pm, $7 14th St Y - 344 East 14th St., just off First Ave. Please RSVP to: 212 780-0800x255 This event is funded in part by Poets& Writers through public funds received from the New York City Department of Cultural Affairs and the New York Times Co. Foundation ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:28:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit IWW are you serious? Is it 2002 or 1902? ----- Original Message ----- From: "sylvester pollet" To: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:26 AM Subject: a working-class poet is something to be > Here's how the IWW decides how to figure out your social situation. It's > their first question on eligibility for membership: "You must be a worker > (not an employer), and you cannot have the power to hire and/or fire." > Simple. Nothing about how much you earn, etc., though dues are keyed to > that. Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:38:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working class poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they are. Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not the MFA programs in the USA. RB ----- Original Message ----- From: "michael amberwind" To: Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > What you said about working people often having > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > transportation, and so much of your life is > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > others. > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > high school I had what would probably now be > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > boredom. > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > the university library, perusing the stacks, > reading whatever came to me. > > No High School means no University means No job > tho lots of the people I know with those things > are in little better financial shape than I am > in. > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > This is a University town. People who go to > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > - > would get you through the night. > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > more gentle and more serious. > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > would be suspicious of it. > > I am reminded that before the industrial > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > imagine such a thing today? > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > sense, ought to be about the building of > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > considering enrolling in University and getting a > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > only in $30 000 of debt. > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > From: Millie Niss > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > to be (race & nationality > > count!) > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > but working class is > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > working class but I am poor... > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > father's house > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > problmes dealt with > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > are professionals (though > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > financial situations) & I > > graduated from Columbia > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > and was trying to get > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > projects, so we had something > > in common... > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > like the problems of the > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > often at decent union rates. > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > a low wage earner (mostly > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > was still below the poverty > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > When you are working, you > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > or even to write poetry. > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > went away, but that's because > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > did not mean moving back into > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > milling around and no bedroom of > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > etc. That is due to not being > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > little income now, but like many > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > and am talking about are > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > class down into total poverty. > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > walk around all day maybe. > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > day, but you have to carry > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > and you don't smell bad, you > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > to read poetry, but you > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > sleep because the room held > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > had managed to sneak in a man > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > library but you have taught > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > the book at the right distance > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > libraries if you sleep... And > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > into the shelter and eat a > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > lights off at some absurdly > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > patchwork of programs in order to > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > spend inordinate amounts of > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > They spend their lives sitting > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > have to quit the job or get > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > to get antibiotics for a > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > easily spend all day there, and > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > complaint, instead of treating > > it they send you for more tests and to > > specialists, so that each visit to > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > visits to two specialists and you > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > appointments. > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > agency... > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > poetry, the way working class > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > or what not, but I bet the > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > only because that's what's > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > at least the women, and might become interested > > again if they didn't have to > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > medical care or enough money for > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > experiences make good poetry > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > not myself usually that taken > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > suffered, although someotimes > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > situation who would stop and > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > kind of testimonial poems that > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > Millie > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > camille roy > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > to be (race & nationality > > count!) > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > pursues radical invention, > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > mainstream not because you > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > never inherited a penny." > > > (magee) > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > white american poets but > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > very queer spoken word > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > interest in theory. > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > experience is suspicious > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > itty-bitty presentation > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > a woman I actually > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > you talking about!!?! > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > have been putting together > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > This is one hell of rich > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > follow the paradigm of > > white trust fund babies toying with > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > (e.g. Said) which > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > consciousness about the > > political forces that locate them in their > > lives. The white (american) > > working class has not been gotten such > > persuasive and transformative > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > ===== > ...I am a real poet. My poem > is finished and I haven't mentioned > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 16:57:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Check out Bertram Gross' Friendly Fascism Gene -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Belz To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:52 PM Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER > > i don't agree on the theocratic fascism stuff. In fact, Ron, what *is* theocratic fascism? I don't see either theocracy (direct rule by a divine power) or fascism in the U.S. Seems to kind of -- surely you don't intend this, but -- soften the historical reality of fascism. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 17:20:18 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron, Go to DC and take the elevator to the top of the Washington Monument. If you do it during Christmas, Yule also get high. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Aaron Belz To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, March 09, 2002 4:15 PM Subject: Re: JOHN CLARKE INTERROGATED AT THE US BORDER > > Kiss kiss, > Mary Jane Weed One of my dreams -- I am a simple person with uncomplicated dreams -- is to visit Gwyn in D.C. and get high. But then, I would likely visit any of you anywhere in order to get high, so maybe this isn't about Gwyn. Will somebody help me get high? -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 10:40:19 -0800 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Question of Gossip..... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello--- I heard that there was some poetry event in NYC the other night and I would like to hear, if possible, some versions of what happened. I was told that it was some panel on performance poetry (as oppossed to some performance on panelled poetry) and that, at one point, Charles Bernstein was going on and on and not letting others talk, and the audience was getting upset and David Shapiro, who was also on the panel, at one point HELD A CHAIR OVER BERNSTEIN'S HEAD (which would sound violent if it were someone else and not say David Shapiro) and it broke the tension, and people laughed..... It almost sounds unbelievable, but I am curious if any of you were there to confirm, or clarify (sorry this is just too juicy to keep to myself....) Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:29:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Question of Gossip..... Comments: To: cstroffo@earthlink.net MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT now i'm confused.m a chair on preformance poetry? a chair on a performance poet? a chair of performance poetry a material basis for creativity? not in words but in things? actions speak louder? etc.? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino" To: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 12:40 PM Subject: Question of Gossip..... > Hello--- > > I heard that there was some poetry event in NYC the other night > and I would like to hear, if possible, some versions of what happened. > I was told that it was some panel on performance poetry > (as oppossed to some performance on panelled poetry) > and that, at one point, Charles Bernstein was going on and on and not > letting others talk, and the audience was getting upset and > David Shapiro, who was also on the panel, at one point > HELD A CHAIR OVER BERNSTEIN'S HEAD (which > would sound violent if it were someone else and not say David Shapiro) > and it broke the tension, and people laughed..... > It almost sounds unbelievable, but I am curious if any of you were there > to confirm, or clarify > (sorry this is just too juicy to keep to myself....) > > Chris ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 21:39:21 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT working is an action and as such is timeless I would think credentials, class, who's in, games, etc., are another matter? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Bianchi" To: Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > IWW are you serious? Is it 2002 or 1902? > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "sylvester pollet" > To: > Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:26 AM > Subject: a working-class poet is something to be > > > > Here's how the IWW decides how to figure out your social situation. It's > > their first question on eligibility for membership: "You must be a worker > > (not an employer), and you cannot have the power to hire and/or fire." > > Simple. Nothing about how much you earn, etc., though dues are keyed to > > that. Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 01:59:10 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rob Holloway Subject: Note on Dissenting Agency & the Concept Anti-Globalism or Anti-Globalization In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.20020306165356.00685880@mail.paconline.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 'anti-globalism' - lazy naming - it's at least 'anti-corporate globalisation' and then listen to Braudel and now De Landa for the emphasis on not 'capitalism' but anti-market activity to expose govt subsidised trans-national corporate activity and so de-masking the 'free-trade', 'uninhibited flow of resources' bullshit that means only 'don't get in our way while we exploit you with our politicians backing 'cus we paid for them to be there' - let's keep awake at least >Ron Silliman writes: "The anti-globalism movement, taken as a whole, is >frankly not promising, though it is within that coalition that answers will >have to be found." > >This sentence disturbs. "Anti-globalism movement" or "anti-globalization >movement" doesn't specify an existing entity, does it? The phrase is often >used by commercial media to point to a cluster of contemporary political >dissent but it does not get the specifically anti-capitalist character of >the current oppositionality. It's a phrase that misses the severity of the >criticism by making dissent appear as a mere variety of nationalism that >advocates governmental policies to protect domestic trade. Yuck! Ick! Gack! >Shouldn't the movements be re-described in post-nationalist terms? And are >these movements, not taken as a whole, more promising? Who are the members >of this coalition such that they may be promising or not? Who, I wonder, are >the least promising agents in a transition to a post-capitalist economy today? > >Well, thanks for the sentence, Ron. Prompts a number of questions. I'd like >to hear what other members of this poetics list think about these problems. >My apologies if they've already been addressed--I can only follow the >messages here sporadically. > >Aaron Vidaver >Vancouver > >"Often our good friends use to bring me all kinds of beautiful flowers, but >the beautiful cloves and the red black beauty vivid roses that you brought >us Saturday last, which I liked so well, were certainly the most big and >beautiful bunch of flowers I have ever had." -- Nicola Sacco to Georg >Branting, June 1927 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 18:14:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: John Wiener and the Working Class poet In-Reply-To: <003801c1c562$ef5868a0$c98accd1@CeceliaBelle> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > John's outrageousness--the female film stars he impersonated--satisfied >several traits of his, but one function was surely to distract one from his >sin of being 'workingclass intellectual'--john as 'gloria grahame > >' (I may be projecting a wish of my own here; I'm actually not able, today, >to recall whom he did so identify with) was more outrageous than the truth. > David. David, he signed himself into hotels as (a) Marlene Dietrich and (b) Edward, Prince of Wales. -- George Bowering Afraid of moths. Fax 604-266-9000 Cell 604-323-4539 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 22:48:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mr. Bianchi, Seems that message stands the test of time. Do you have any other definitions to substitute for it? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Ray Bianchi To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, March 09, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be >IWW are you serious? Is it 2002 or 1902? > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "sylvester pollet" >To: >Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 10:26 AM >Subject: a working-class poet is something to be > > >> Here's how the IWW decides how to figure out your social situation. It's >> their first question on eligibility for membership: "You must be a worker >> (not an employer), and you cannot have the power to hire and/or fire." >> Simple. Nothing about how much you earn, etc., though dues are keyed to >> that. Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 22:49:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Good point. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Ray Bianchi To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Saturday, March 09, 2002 6:03 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality >It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working class >poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and >academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are >elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they are. >Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some >great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not the >MFA programs in the USA. > >RB > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "michael amberwind" >To: >Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM >Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > >> I can empathise with yr situation in a true >> Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month >> - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. >> >> What you said about working people often having >> more time is very much true. Much of my time and >> schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford >> transportation, and so much of your life is >> dependant on the schedules and time frames of >> others. >> >> You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In >> high school I had what would probably now be >> called ADD, though in truth it was simply >> boredom. >> I would spend days cutting classes and head to >> the university library, perusing the stacks, >> reading whatever came to me. >> >> No High School means no University means No job >> tho lots of the people I know with those things >> are in little better financial shape than I am >> in. >> >> There is a definite class/culture dividing line. >> This is a University town. People who go to >> University, or teach there, do *not* tend to >> reach out to the literary community as a whole. >> >> I have lived in various missions, so I know how >> hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - >> sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them >> - >> would get you through the night. >> >> I've run into people who write "poems" at the >> lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend >> to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". >> >> One time when I was bone broke, and living in the >> mission in another city, so I didn't even have >> friends to rely on, I found that the experience, >> the utter downward pull of the earth, was an >> opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one >> more gentle and more serious. >> >> I am not sure how poetry can "make things >> better." If poetry had the power to do that, I >> would be suspicious of it. >> >> I am reminded that before the industrial >> revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people >> to read to them while they worked. Who could even >> imagine such a thing today? >> >> Now I find myself in a strange place. >> On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind >> of "social climbing". Education, in the classical >> sense, ought to be about the building of >> character and the soul. Of course it is so far >> from that ideal so as to be laughable. >> >> On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I >> crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am >> living at right now. Most of the people I meet >> who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking >> for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and >> philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of >> Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am >> considering enrolling in University and getting a >> degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't >> feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it >> doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - >> only in $30 000 of debt. >> >> Most of the poor people I know are utterly >> uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. >> Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and >> good weed beats a bad poem any day. >> >> I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a >> rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great >> deal from the language, beat and avant garde >> poetics, from several angles. But I do know that >> if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen >> tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, >> speaking their piece and holding out for truth. >> >> >> > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 >> > From: Millie Niss >> > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something >> > to be (race & nationality >> > count!) >> > >> > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, >> > but working class is >> > sometimes a strange notion compared to >> > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near >> > working class but I am poor... >> > >> > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my >> > father's house >> > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health >> > problmes dealt with >> > but I am in no way working class-- both parents >> > are professionals (though >> > neither is working and both are in precarious >> > financial situations) & I >> > graduated from Columbia >> > >> > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in >> > the GYN clinic with a pregnant >> > homeless woman who was having her eighth child >> > and was trying to get >> > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the >> > projects, so we had something >> > in common... >> > >> > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing >> > like the problems of the >> > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, >> > often at decent union rates. >> > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was >> > a low wage earner (mostly >> > because Social Security was taking back half my >> > earnings), but I wasn't in >> > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I >> > was still below the poverty >> > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple >> > who are Working, paradoxically, >> > have more time than those who are impoverished. >> > When you are working, you >> > can come home after work to your own (rented) >> > apartment for a spot of poetry >> > or even to write poetry. >> > >> > I have written a lot of poetry since my income >> > went away, but that's because >> > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's >> > did not mean moving back into >> > a home with many children & grandchildren >> > milling around and no bedroom of >> > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. >> > etc. That is due to not being >> > working class, I guess-- my father may have >> > little income now, but like many >> > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a >> > nice, spacious apartment... >> > >> > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms >> > and am talking about are >> > people who fall from the ranks of the working >> > class down into total poverty. >> > >> > When you are impoverished, you might have to >> > walk around all day maybe. >> > because your shelter kicks you out during the >> > day, but you have to carry >> > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious >> > and you don't smell bad, you >> > can go in a library, and then you might be able >> > to read poetry, but you >> > probably don't because you are so tired from no >> > sleep because the room held >> > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 >> > coughed. 2 talked all night to >> > voices, two had sex with each other, and one >> > had managed to sneak in a man >> > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the >> > library but you have taught >> > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with >> > the book at the right distance >> > from your face because you get kicked out of >> > libraries if you sleep... And >> > then it's time for the big line to get back >> > into the shelter and eat a >> > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and >> > lights off at some absurdly >> > early hour which no one complains about... >> > >> > People who live in poverty and depend on a >> > patchwork of programs in order to >> > eat and sleep other than on the street have to >> > spend inordinate amounts of >> > time waiting in offices for those programs. >> > They spend their lives sitting >> > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd >> > have to quit the job or get >> > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just >> > to get antibiotics for a >> > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could >> > easily spend all day there, and >> > then half the time, no matter how minor your >> > complaint, instead of treating >> > it they send you for more tests and to >> > specialists, so that each visit to >> > primary care balloons into three tests and >> > visits to two specialists and you >> > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more >> > appointments. >> > >> > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social >> > Security or at the Food Stamp >> > office, or at HUD or at a mental health >> > agency... >> > >> > I am not sure these poor people have time for >> > poetry, the way working class >> > people do, but when they do, I would hope >> > they'd want something ANGRY, like >> > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases >> > or what not, but I bet the >> > poetry they really like is in the Readers' >> > Digest (they read the Readers' >> > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe >> > only because that's what's >> > there to read). I suspect some of them tried >> > to write poetry as teenagers, >> > at least the women, and might become interested >> > again if they didn't have to >> > fight for a place to stay or a way to get >> > medical care or enough money for >> > food every single day. I don't know that these >> > experiences make good poetry >> > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am >> > not myself usually that taken >> > with "sincere" work by people who have really >> > suffered, although someotimes >> > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even >> > impressed, as with early AIDS >> > poems or poetry by people under siege in >> > Sarajevo or something. But one is >> > impressed on a scale other than the usual >> > poetic scale-- it's more being >> > impressed by the bravery of a person in that >> > situation who would stop and >> > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a >> > poem. (If it is really bad, >> > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the >> > kind of testimonial poems that >> > are perfectly good, just predictable and >> > ordinary in their use of language.) >> > >> > Millie >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: UB Poetics discussion group >> > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On >> > Behalf Of megan minka lola >> > camille roy >> > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM >> > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >> > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something >> > to be (race & nationality >> > count!) >> > >> > >> > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde >> > pursues radical invention, >> > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space >> > cleared, with fierce frequency, by >> > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the >> > mainstream not because you >> > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've >> > never inherited a penny." >> > > (magee) >> > >> > >> > Hey this is true enough as a statement about >> > white american poets but >> > breaks down internationally and racially. >> > >> > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a >> > very queer spoken word >> > scene that is working class and white. Not much >> > interest in theory. >> > the (white) working class dyke scene in my >> > experience is suspicious >> > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one >> > itty-bitty presentation >> > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle >> > a woman I actually >> > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were >> > you talking about!!?! >> > >> > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts >> > have been putting together >> > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical >> > experimentation ELSEWHERE. >> > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. >> > This is one hell of rich >> > vein of experimental work!! It just does not >> > follow the paradigm of >> > white trust fund babies toying with >> > abstraction. WHY. >> > >> > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a >> > literary one. There's been a lot of >> > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work >> > (e.g. Said) which >> > has been hella useful to people coming to >> > consciousness about the >> > political forces that locate them in their >> > lives. The white (american) >> > working class has not been gotten such >> > persuasive and transformative >> > analyses. WHY NOT. >> > >> > camille roy >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> >> >> ===== >> ...I am a real poet. My poem >> is finished and I haven't mentioned >> orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call >> it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery >> I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. >> [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! >> http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 22:54:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: Whitman and the old sentence MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I meant "simple" in his dispensing of artifice, a "style" gained by learning the craft of newspaper. I'm thinking here of what might be considered his transition..."Brooklynianna"...prepared as a single unit, having the continuity not found in his other journalism. He wasn't working against his usual newspaper deadline. He may have even considered putting it out as a book, but ended up putting it out in the papers. His "chant", expanded and clipped, that sentence is there: "Manhattan Island, sterile and sandy, on a foundation of rock, was not an inviting looking spot, but bleak, sterile, and rough." From working this through I think he learned the power of the occasional archaic spellings and punctuations he carried into his poetry. Gerald ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mark Prejsnar" To: Sent: Thursday, March 07, 2002 10:24 AM Subject: Whitman and the old sentence > "Like the journalists Whitman and Sandburg and others were/are, their > free > verse was sparse on connectives, subordinate clauses--relying instead > on > dramatic juxtaposition of simple sentences. As they worked, they > worked it > through, working it further." > > > > interesting.... many of Whitman's sentences are anything but simple... > > > POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: > >Like the journalists Whitman and Sandburg and others were/are, their > >free > >verse was sparse on connectives, subordinate clauses--relying > >instead on > >dramatic juxtaposition of simple sentences. As they worked, they > >worked it > >through, working it further. > > > >And the editorials of the day ran to call their work "collocations of > >words", "ragged lines", "imprudent affronts to the poetry-loving > >public", > >and my personal favorite, "unregulated word eruptions". > > > >Yes, the form of poetry, or seeming lack thereof, causes irritation > >(yes!), > >but the working-class content and use of vernacular grates as well. > > > >Maybe more of us are "more at home in the brickyard than on the > >slopes of > >Parnassus." Most of us now seem to be placeless, translators of the > >nontraditional. Rather than fixed in the order of conning Grecian > >urns, our > >lineage is fluid, nomadic, transitional. But once, at least, we were > >"home", > >and our translating powers rhizome from there, coming to be in large > >part > >from necessity, and as such, some of us find our spiritual worth in > >the > >brickyard, some in Parnassus...still more of us... as Garfield, > >beautiful > >Garfield...in the limbo of both. > > > >Gerald > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "laurie macrae" > >To: > >Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 6:22 PM > >Subject: John Wiener and the Working Class poet > > > > > >> In 1966, I think it was, there was a great reading on > >> campus at Berkeley, called (I think) the "San > >> Francisco Poetry Rennaisance". (If I'm wrong one of > >> you will set it right. ) Being the only one of my > >> poetry-loving circle with a job, I couldn't be there > >> for the whole thing.I did arrive in time to hear John > >> Wiener though. > >> Standing in the back of the theater with Tuli > >> Kupferburg, who, with the Fugs, was there for the > >> event, I saw the dissheveled figure holding his untidy > >> handful of poems,hypnotize the audience. He seemed so > >> vulnerable and so focused. Didn't care about audience > >> response, didn't read for that, but seemed to be > >> addressing a private spectre, and we all felt > >> privileged to be allowed to eavesdrop on this private > >> transaction. > >> > >> Back in the 20s and 30s of the 20th century, there > >> existed a concept no one seems familiar with now: the > >> working class intellectual. This person was > >> self-educated with the help of the public library and > >> the numerous public offerings available then through > >> labor unions, schools like Cooper Union in New York, > >> and others. This worker read poetry, often memorized > >> it for the amusement of hi/her friends and family. > >> This was the era of memorization in school too, and my > >> parents learned many, many poems by heart while they > >> were still in school. > >> Recognizing complexity of form does not seem to me to > >> be a prerequisite for appreciating poetry. In fact, > >> it seems to me, that if form intrudes on the message > >> of the poem,it loses some of it's power. > >> You may ridicule the poetry of Kipling and Vachel > >> Linsay,but there was and there remains a > >> class-consciousness in it that moved working men and > >> women of my parents generation, and made them believe > >> that poetry could be telling their story. Vachel > >> Lindsay traveled from town to town and recited his > >> work, sometimes, for dinner. > >> I have read with growing alarm the dialogue about > >> "working class poets" these last few days. It appears > >> that this predominantly academic list really believes > >> that working class poets are some quaint, agit-prop > >> writing, bunch of cretins. Some of you are clearly > >> victims of the agit-propaganda of people like Clifford > >> Odettes,who wrote characters, portrayed by the > >> beautiful John Garfield in numerous 30s and 40s films, > >> the working class guy who wanted to play the violin > >> but ended up prize-fighting to support the family.. > >> > >> The power of the poem transcends style and form. Ron > >> Silliman, who has challenged form from a working-class > >> perspective,is always accessable. I read him first > >> without any understanding of what "lang po" was. I > >> undertook to learn about it because of him. I still > >> think his work is in a class by itself. Sooner or > >> later he will give us the last word here. > >> Laurie Macrae > >> > >> > >> __________________________________________________ > >> Do You Yahoo!? > >> Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball > >> http://sports.yahoo.com > >> > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2002 23:37:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: ...the end of human life In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In reference to jean chris, my tendency is towards pessimism; I would conjoin the "If" piece I sent to Poetics last, to the series of quota- tions. It seems to me that disaster is taking over the world; I know of no defense but a certain delineation, or raising of the first, or crying out in articulate manner. At Rhode Island School of Design years ago I taught a course, The Year 3000, in futurism; I am seeing the rather pessimistic conclusions reached at that point (from The Year 2000 report on), come true, more or less, tottering as the world totters. There is no apocalyypse; there never will be - just a slow dying, what you can see in almost any wilderness world-wide. And there is no myth perhaps - in the U.S. we're inundated with myth, but the socio-political horizon is void... Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 03:05:34 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A collaborative poem in progress. Please add, subtract, multiply, answer or refute as you will. ******************************************** Some Notes Towards Last Night's Conversation Text as text is uninterruptible tyranny. Poetry is failure. Tyranny as text is poetry. Poetry is uninterruptible. Poetry is terrible. Interrupting terror, words in postmodernity are injected with meaning the way "foodness" is injected into a Big Mac (tm). Meaning, with injected postmodernity, is part of the blue print (sic) of poetry. Its architecture is inherently unstable. "The rise of capitalism parallels the advance of romanticism..." - John Ashbery. Poetry is the refutation of purity, so don't shoot until you see the whites of their lives. Reader =3D Text. All the right space at the white margins. In the margins of the book I purchased there are notes written in black pen for the first thirty pages. I guess they ran outta steam, or maybe were so taken by the spell of the text, they were overcome and could write no more. Maybe they were interrupted with a very important phone call. "Too many poets are like middle aged mothers trying to get their kids to eat too much cooked meat..." - Frank O'Hara The better you get, the more some uppity youngin' wants to see if you are as fast on the draw as everyone says. So you might as well lay low, wait for all your enemies to ping each other off in the crossfire, so you can escape town with the gold, the horses, and if you are lucky, the school-marm. "At a Dada exhibition in Dusseldorf, I was impressed that though Schwitters and Picabia and the others had all become artists with the passing of time, Duchamp's work remained unacceptable as art." - John Cage The parallel of romanticism is asylum. Neo-Formalism is stage hypnosis attempting to convince you that the last one-hundred and fifty years of poetry, the best parts of it anyways, did not occur. "When you wake up, you will giggle with rapturous glee at a well transposed trochee and iambic foot." If I shoot myself in the iambic foot, maybe I can avoid the draft. I cannot read a sonnet for the same reason I cannot enter the abode of someone over the age of seventy-five without familial duties being involved in some way. I am certain I am losing much wisdom in this, but the smell! "We didn't teach verse writing skills. We were all emotionally bankrupt and went around asking the students for love. - Allen Ginsberg There are only so many open spaces available in this racket. If one in ten million people were poets, and each poet wrote a volume of poems every ten years, you would have to read a thousand books of poetry a year just to keep up. A book of poems for breakfast. A book of poems for lunch. A book of poems for dinner. C'est impossible! My math could be wrong on that. Yeats was bad at math, too, and Einstein was, according to the legend, a poor speller. Physics knows nothing of language. The fall of John Ashbery parallels with the advance of Neo-Formalism. "You wouldn't believe how much television is purely Satanic." - Overheard at a local soup kitchen John Cage's mesostics are the most pure poems of this century. They are total gestures that re-align all previous understandings of text. There has to be a way to make things better for everybody. Rhyme =3D Regression. Slant Rhyme =3D Joyful Detour. Poetry is not an experience. It is the clear solution into which language is dissolved (de-solved). Calm and cool panoptics intensity. Poetry as compared to music is sadly lacking. It fails on the level of pure abstraction. The only upside about this is that poetry can be utterly indigestible. Pound's "Cantos" are a precursor to digitalized, sampled electronica compositions. The essence of capitalism is the presence of places wherein you are not permitted to wear jeans after a certain hour. The rise of workshop verse parallels the advance of the automobile. "The kind of poetry I want is not a happy art with uplifting messages and easy to understand emotions. I want a poetry that's bad for you." -Charles Bernstein A poet may wish to write utterly personal poems anyone might have written. Anthologies are filled with such poems. Anthologies are the cryogenic stasis of poetry, hurtling through the universe (universities) in a well-built rocket ship. Plain text is the best font of all. Enjoy poetry, you will never get to read enough of it, after all. Poetry is a joy. Sometimes it manages to be nearly as good as television. Know that you exist, and enjoy the contours of your mind. Don't strain too hard. Read "The Art of Poetry" by Kenneth Koch. That should take you as much time as watching a sitcom, though you can do both, reading the poem during the commercials. Don't parody yourself. Text =3D Interlocutory Cremation (sometimes). Don't call yourself an angel for not "selling out" when no-one is buying. Capitalism will catch up with you soon enough. Meaning is a plastic baggie used to carry home a fish. Clear, malleable, plastic, imprisoning, revealing, and provisional. I'll shut up now. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D ...I am a real poet. My poem is finished and I haven't mentioned orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] my land for a turning two a ward and some after the fact ors come and lign a tomb tumble bell of brother my land a king as though poetry was poems and small fictitious units of self I am the requsite basis of de campos=20 it ionizes the letters my l o v e the co edy mumbles along all ems and a versification very mush against so this is the wind and this is your time h as if our was a segmented understanding of narrative m in the ou an ersatz attempt "The ethical distributor was plugged in or kicked in." -- Louis Cabri ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 03:24:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: [webartery] Re: web art manifesto on Rhizome MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that the internet assumes a sort of community that is potentially possible through printed word, but has not been possible due to patriarchal and unidirectional reading strategies. We've learned to experience text in isolation. It is not absoultely so. I'm sitting in front of my computer screen, alone, after a night out at a poetry reading, all my housemates are asleep. How is this not in isolation? The imagination fills in a person at the other end of this emissary, perhaps even a group of people, and yet is this any more real than assuming answers from text? from imagining an other while reading whether it is author, narrator, or self. Responses do come in, and so this illusion of contact and community is upheld against the notion of isolation and reading of static book, however it is merely illusory since all I respond to is text, not person, not personality, only words. You don't know me. The potentialities of the web don't suddenly liberate us from experiencing text in isolation, and I think it is possible to excercise the same imaginary powers that posit a person at the compositional moment of the text you are reading right now to formulate an other from a static text. Neither format brings people closer, or inserts a body into discourse, however if reading practices can be altered from the learned condition of isolated learning/reading, then it is perhaps possible to imagine this community materializing through either methodology of composition, web or static page. The web presumes a certain breaking with time, or an instatement of local and eventual, as in predicated on a notion of event based time. This appears to collapse the space between my computer in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, and a computer in Buffalo, New York. Does it really though, or is this just a further illusion? If I'm reading a novel written by Charles Dickens, can I pretend that because he invokes England the space between my reading and his England is skirted? We could also apply this notion to time. If I send an email to say hello to a friend at seven in the morning and I get a response at seven the next morning, does it really matter when it was composed? When I read the email for the first time, see it drop onto my computer, then it is happening regardless of when it was written. This is a further illusion that could again be attached to a notion of reading Dickens as a time-collapsor. I think there are many opportunities offered by web art/writing/conceptualization, however it is dangerous to forgo the notions arrived at in contemporary writing and seek a false liberation in new formats. Neither form allows for a sharing of text. However, both allow for the illusion of community and dialogue. It just requires different acts of imagination. ----- Original Message ----- From: "komninos zervos" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [webartery] Re: web art manifesto on Rhizome > > > let me propose that what print did was to create solitary readers and > >writers. > >> prior to print both reading and writing were shared activities, > >> community activities. > >> hand written texts were written with others around and read to large > >> groups of people because they were so immobile/expensive/rare. > >> the book allowed a certain mobility and ownership and solitary study. > > > >This is not exactly true. During the long "Dark Ages," texts were copied in > >monasteries, at least in Europe, so that there may have been a few people > >around (probably Umberto Eco, lurking in the shadows), but they were all > >monks. > > > >> what the interconnected web and web work is doing is bringing > >> community back into writing and reading, making it a shared > >> experience. > > > >People have shared books for a long time, from libraries. And of course > >there are newspapers and magazines. But what does shared mean? If the web > >one big room, where are you? > >What I'm getting at is that this subject is immensely complicated. I'm not > >even sure if it's worth discussing, although I'll have to when I review > >Loss's book. > > > >Best, > >Joel > > where will your review of loss's book be available? > and what do you think of jay bolter's 'writing space', the latest version? > > people get very defensive when you say the book did this or the book > did that. i find myself reacting to what bolter says about the book > and the computer as if they were adversaries, and as if they had > human characteristics, malice, ambition, etc. > > undoubtably, indubiously, whatever, people have shared books for a > long time, but i meant the shared experience of and not material > possession of books. > > the web is not one big room, its one big moment and we come together > at that moment in time, not place, or space. > > space?, now there is an interesting word/concept in itself. > the space between words on a page, the space between reader and text, > the space between computer and end-user, the space the end-user is in > when reading or surfing the web, the cyberspace that people talk of > that we are supposed to meet in when on the web, the metaphorical > spaces of reason, recall and imagination, the space of nasa, personal > lifestyle space, are all these spaces the same? > > i remember when i didn't have a computer and internet connection, > writing and reading were solitary endeavours. that is why i became a > performance poet because the poetry sounding was a community event, a > sharing of a writing/reading experience. > > with the internet connection, i can read a post on webartery, can > sleep, can wake still thinking of that post and send off my response. > that discussion creates a timeline of its own within the timeline of > duration, ie clocktime. > the webartery timeline works from post to post, sometimes it is > running parallel with clocktime, when the posts are fast and furious, > at other times it is suspended eg. when servers play up, sleep, going > to work, cooking dinner, etc.. > > what i do know is that thinking and writing are at the basis of all > of it, all communication between human beings, and i find it > difficult to agree with those like bolter who say we have switched > from a verbal to a visual culture. the examples given of things we > now read visually instead of verbally still have writing at their > source, the tv news-report, the movie, television soapies, > supermario, the graphical web. and the readers of such visual texts > still have to have a knowledge built on the written stuff to > interpret the images, the non-verbal signs. > > have to break out of webartery timeline now to get my son to school, > can't wait to return for the responses of my community when i am once > again immersed in webartery/e-Poetry/ubpoetics time. > > > > > > > > > -- > komninos zervos bsc(hons) ma(creative writing) > http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/K_Zervos > Convenor > CyberStudies major > School of Arts > Griffith University > Gold Coast Campus > PMB 50 Gold Coast Mail Centre > Queensland 9726 Australia > tel: +61 7 55528872 > fax: +61 7 55528141 > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:51:46 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg one would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically "charged" or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the continuing military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA (perceived "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim to have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say some John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all his work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays of course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving at" but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, poetry etc. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Bianchi" To: Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working class > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they are. > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not the > MFA programs in the USA. > > RB > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "michael amberwind" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > What you said about working people often having > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > others. > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > high school I had what would probably now be > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > boredom. > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > in. > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > This is a University town. People who go to > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > - > > would get you through the night. > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > From: Millie Niss > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > to be (race & nationality > > > count!) > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > but working class is > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > father's house > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > problmes dealt with > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > are professionals (though > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > financial situations) & I > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > and was trying to get > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > projects, so we had something > > > in common... > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > like the problems of the > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > often at decent union rates. > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > was still below the poverty > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > When you are working, you > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > went away, but that's because > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > did not mean moving back into > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > little income now, but like many > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > and am talking about are > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > day, but you have to carry > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > to read poetry, but you > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > sleep because the room held > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > library but you have taught > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > the book at the right distance > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > have to quit the job or get > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > appointments. > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > agency... > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > poetry, the way working class > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > only because that's what's > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > again if they didn't have to > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > medical care or enough money for > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > experiences make good poetry > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > not myself usually that taken > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > situation who would stop and > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > camille roy > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > to be (race & nationality > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > mainstream not because you > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > white american poets but > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > very queer spoken word > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > interest in theory. > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > experience is suspicious > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > a woman I actually > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > have been putting together > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > This is one hell of rich > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > follow the paradigm of > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > consciousness about the > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > lives. The white (american) > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > persuasive and transformative > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > ===== > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:37:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: NY Times Article on Poetry on the Peaks In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends: I am happy to announce that on March 8, 2002, there was a 1/2-page article in the New York Times on Poetry on the Peaks. The articl= e was titled "Poetry on Mountaintops, or at Least Hilltops" by James Gorman= . It was in the Weekend Arts section. The full article is available at http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/08/arts/08OUTS.html?ex=3D1016641438&ei=3D1= &en=3D7f3c2cc9a47b5920 http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain_nytimes_article.htm Also, please join us: 2002 Dialogue Through Poetry Reading Wednesday 20, March, 2002 from 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm The New School, Tishman Auditorium at 66 West 12th St., New York City. FREE Featured poets and readers: Breyten Breytenbach, Shashi Tharoor, Bob Holm= an, Sonia Sanchez, Sharon Olds and others. Cheers, Ram Rattapallax Press 532 La Guardia Place Suite 353 New York, NY 10012 USA http://www.rattapallax.com http://www.dialoguepoetry.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 08:57:01 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:29 PM, Austinwja@AOL.COM writes: >Murat >> > >Apologies for inserting myself here. Seems to me that poetry is economically >viable, in the academy. Anthologies, some of them, sell quite well. And >many poets make a living traveling from reading to reading...... So long as poetry is bound and >delivered between two covers with price tag, it's a product, right? The >situation is not all that dissimilar to that of serious (classical?) music >and jazz. Best, Bill > Bill, You touched important issues. No, I don't think the academy is a "compensation" for poems. How many of the poets would get a job if they represented themselves to the search committees without a Phd? In fact, the academy reflects the relation between one's work and who is paying for it. In subtle ways, it forces the poet to write ways which the literary environment of that instotutions considers "good" poetry, "experimental" poetry, etc. A genuinely new poetry, in that sense, may endenger one academic career. It is true that anthologies (and critical writings which quote poems) sell quite well. But that money goes mostly to publishers, not the poets. As Ed Foster pointed out, a poem is worth more as a quotation than as a poem. Making money out of the reading of one's poems is the nearest thing to one's being paid for the poetic labor. But how many poets can make a living out of these readings? Generously, the average payment for a reading is 150/250 dollars (Allen Ginsberg made I think about 2000). One needs at least 20,000.00 a year (in the States) to live. How many of us can give, let's say, 100 readings a year. I would go crazy, and nobody would ask many of us to give that many anyway. What about the time we spent writing the poems? Besides, if one gave a hundred readings, what kind of poems will one end up writing, both to satisfy that schedule and draw the audience for it? What you say is viable for a specific kind of performance poetry -like jazz- where the poet improvises around themes during the performance, where the writing and performing of the poem are one. The point I am making is that for whom the poem is being writing is crucial in determining the form and content (indirectly the class) of the poem. And, since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very often must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to write his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, not a craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel. This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet in the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reason, like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or alcoholics or cocaine addicts. Ciao Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:47:07 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "\\ MA NEWSLETTER DU DIMANCH=?ISO-8859-1?Q?E_n=B0004_\\?=" Subject: 10 mars 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ MA NEWSLETTER DU DIMANCHE n°004 \\ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOMMAIRE : 1 - PIECE 1.3. - 2 - SCOLIE a - 3 - CONFERENCE d) - 4 - SCOLIE b - 5 - CONFERENCE e) - 6 - REFERENCE - 7 - SCOLIE c - +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 - PIECE 1.3. - L'expéditeur pourrait être un pervers, un aliéné, un serial- killer. Parce qu'il peut être aussi bien quelqu'un de très aimable, avec ce que cela comporte de mielleux. Vous semblez de toute façon le faire avancer, pour être dépositaire d'un message pareil, y étant forcément pour quelque chose, vous vous devez d'aider à son élucidation : d'une part, c'est quelqu'un qui pourrait devenir très dangereux sans les recommandations qui vous sont propres ; d'autre part, il pourrait en ressortir une relation des plus décisives de votre vie ou de votre siècle. Ce qui reste sans compter que : rien n'est définitif (à cause des possibles). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 2 - SCOLIE a - Ne serait-ce que pour s'en porter garant, il est bon de retenir que cela ne va pas sans fessée : d'une soif de tendresse intacte, immense, magnifique, et puis exposée aux coups de fouet du besoin, du sacrifice, du fantasme et des gestes insensés qui mentent à l'amour et trahissent ses revers. C'est un ouvrage, à part entière, n'est donc pas de tout divertissement, sans doute pas aussi documentaire qu'il n'y paraît, de son genre encyclopédique : ringards et branchouilles sont égaux devant la loi de l'éternel demi-recommencement / version remixée / les civilisés, frustrés, jouent d'auto-proclamations dominicales pour gagner en noblesse et faire de l'aristocratie indus' avec de la dignité para-commerciale. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 3 - CONFERENCE d) - Ce qui me regarde, c'est de me sentir bien avec vous, c'est l'occasion qui veut ça : j'ai pensé qu'il serait bon pour ça que j'enregistre la partie de clarinette du Sacre du Printemps d'Igor Stravinsky et que l'enregistrement de cette partition reste entre vous et moi tout le temps de cette conférence. C'est pourquoi cette conférence doit durer le temps de la partition. C'est pourquoi je tiens à dire qu'il n'y a rien de provocateur et surtout rien de scandaleux à cette occasion. D'une part, le Sacre du Printemps a déjà été l'occasion de faire péter un scandale et la partie de clarinette a eu son rôle à jouer dans cette affaire et puisqu'il doit s'agir une affaire, il ne m'appartient pas de revenir dessus. Certains considérerons qu'il y a des fois où c'est l'occasion de faire péter un scandale Je dirai que ceux-là n'arrivent pas quand il faut : étant donné que nous sommes encore dans la première partie de l'enregistrement, il est encore trop tôt pour trancher ce qui fera l'objet précis de cette conférence, si vous voulez qu'il soit celui- là, vous pouvez le vouloir, mais ça ne fera pas avancer le propos. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 4 - SCOLIE b - Il est toujours de bon ton de décider que les têtes de file des musiques très nouvelles, s'il en est, pour être devenues des vedettes - parce que l'échelle de leur notoriété enfin leur échappe - sorties des murs crissants de l'underground, sentant un avenir plus assuré, se seraient détendues et feraient leur travail sans broncher qu'on ne l'écoute pas assez : ainsi entendus, il va de toute évidence que l'électro et le rock n'ont plus lieu de rivaliser, ils peuvent cacher, de leurs cernes de deuxième jeunesse, le chagrin inavouable, la triste révélation, l'objet de leurs batailles, l'audience. Sur le compte des fortes décisions très en prise avec le doux dosage de la sérennité et de quelques stigmates d'une modernité juste ce qu'il en faut, un consensus humaniste mais post-indus' consiste à déclarer que l'électronique est technique, moins important que ce qui en est fait, que ce que ça va devenir. Il y aurait tout lieu de se demander à qui profite un tel compromis si les figures les incarnant, déjà vues de plus près, ne distribuaient des nuances déjà moins mondaines : à la soustraction de l'ego devant la musique et ses nouveautés incontournables, revient l'hédonisme des dance-floors pour ne flatter les pieds qu'après un bain, bourré en mélancolie. Mais tant que ça ne résiste pas à la sociologie, c'est de la gnognotte. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 5 - CONFERENCE e) - Ce qui m'intéresse pour l'occasion n'est pas tant de faire avancer le propos, ce serait calamiteux, mais surtout, cela pourrait devenir officiellement calamiteux, l'heure n'est pas aux caractères officiels. Je préférerai oeuvrer pour me sentir bien et si vous voulez que ce soit une belle conférence, il faut ça. Tout le monde a pu vivre un concert où un instrumentiste ne se sentait plus dès le début et tout le long et sans que cela n'empêche le bon déroulement et le caractère formidable ou la grâce extraordinaire du concert. Seulement, pour ce qui concerne les conditions présentes, il est plus pratique que je me sente. Et plutôt tendu s'il le faut Pour l'occasion : Plus je me détendrai vers la fin et Plus cela pourra paraître comme une résolution Sinon qu'une résolution se veut toujours un peu scandaleuse / C'est facile : C'est trop tôt / Ah / Ah +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 6 - REFERENCE - "Rien ne fait plus penser à une boutique de brocanteur que ce recueil de vers publié par M. Guillaume Apellinaire sous un titre à la fois simple et mystérieux : Alcools. Je dis : boutique de brocanteur parce qu'il est venu échouer dans ce taudis une foule d'objets hétéroclites dont certains ont de la valeur, mais dont aucun n'est le produit de l'industrie du marchand même. C'est bien là une des caractéristiques de la brocante : elle revend ; elle ne fabrique pas. Elle revend d'ailleurs parfois de curieuses choses ; il se peut qu'on trouve, dans ses étalages crasseux, une pierre de prix montée sur un clou. Tout cela vient de loin ; mais la pierre est agréable à voir. Pour le reste, c'est un assemblage de faux tableaux, de vêtements exotiques et rapiécés, d'accessoires pour bicyclettes et d'instruments d'hygiène privée. Une truculente et étourdissante variété tient lieu d'art, dans un assemblage des objets. C'est à peine si, par les trous d'une chasuble miteuse, on aperçoit le regard ironique et candide du marchand, qui tient à la fois du juif levantin, de l'Américain du Sud, du gentilhomme polonais et du facchino." (extrait d'un article de Georges Duhamel, paru dans le Mercure de France du 16 juin 1913, reproduit par M. Décaudin dans Le Dossier d' "Alcools", pp. 49-50, Librairies Droz et Minard, 1965) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 7 - SCOLIE c - Tant de vitalité n'exclut pas une hypocondrie aiguë. Si un proche est susceptible de s'en véxer, il reste possible de vous extraire de sa compagnie comme de toute situation pouvant aliéner votre hypocondrie. Prévoyez, parmi les diversions les plus sympathiques et rafraîchissantes, que leurs auteurs sont mués par une seule obsession : ce qui vous attache à leur style, étant exclu que vous ne l'aimiez pas, tant vous profitez déjà de son déversement pour papoter. Cultivez les recommandations : une simple adresse, une sorte d'impasse, électronique. Les bons tuyaux, à l'heure d'internet, gagnent leurs fresques éditoriales des adresses qui les acheminent. Ils permettent de raffermir des amitiés sans avoir à prendre part aux destinations et à leurs supplices. Ne pas compter sur l'amitié vous permet de vous reposer, vous épargnant les bavasseries et tout ce qui, verbeux et possessif, nuit gravement à la santé. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ MA NEWSLETTER DU DIMANCHE n°004 \\ 10 mars 2002, David Christoffel (et repreneurs éventuels) 25 exemplaires numérotés ont été déposés, candidats à quelque forme de fétichisme, parmi les cartes-postales du Musée des Beaux-Arts de Rennes. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ mail à : fastes@free.fr ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 11:26:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: process child MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - process child we kill our children menses and semen and a terrible politics of response/attack pink flux in hole red-pink flux on rod inevitable deaths in every world desperate desiccation distraught dna and her period, my cum, my mouth my teeth glisten with our children and my lips glisten with our dying children vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born and our fucking, wars of innocent nations look, blood drying everywhere around us we are the desert of organ organelles and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence and nothing weathers, nothing soaks bloody clots, semen dribbling in my eyes and you wear your children in your hair and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum hello to everyone, azure-nikuko and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure i'm wet with our dismembered and menses and semen and pink flux in hole red-pink flux on rod inevitable deaths in every world desperate desiccation distraught dna and her period, my cum, my mouth vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born and our fucking, wars of innocent nations we are the desert of organ organelles and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence and nothing weathers, nothing soaks and you wear your children in your hair and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum hello to everyone, azure-nikuko and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure i'm wet with our dismembered and menses and semen and a terrible politics of response/attack pink flux in hole red-pink flux on rod inevitable deaths in every world desperate desiccation her period, my cum, my mouth my teeth glisten with our children and my lips glisten with our dying children vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born and our fucking, wars of innocent nations look, blood drying everywhere around us blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence and nothing weathers, nothing soaks bloody clots, semen dribbling in my eyes and you wear your children in your hair and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure i'm wet with our dismembered and menses and semen and pink flux in hole red-pink flux on rod inevitable deaths in every world desperate desiccation distraught dna and her period, my cum, my mouth vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born and our fucking, wars of innocent nations look, blood drying everywhere around us we are the desert of organ organelles and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence and nothing weathers, nothing soaks and you wear your children in your hair and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum i'm wet with our dismembered and menses and semen and a terrible politics of response/attack pink flux in hole red-pink flux on rod inevitable deaths in every world desperate desiccation distraught dna and my teeth glisten with our children and my lips glisten with our dying children vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light we are the desert of organ organelles and and nothing weathers, nothing soaks and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure i'm wet with our dismembered and semen and a terrible politics of response/attack red-pink flux on rod her period, my cum, my mouth my teeth glisten with our children and nothing weathers, nothing soaks bloody clots, semen dribbling in my eyes and you wear your children in your hair and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure menses and semen and a terrible politics of response/attack pink flux in hole red-pink flux on rod inevitable deaths in every world distraught dna and her period, my cum, my mouth my teeth glisten with our children and my lips glisten with our dying children vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born and our fucking, wars of innocent nations look, blood drying everywhere around us we are the desert of organ organelles and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence and nothing weathers, nothing soaks bloody clots, semen dribbling in my eyes and you wear your children in your hair and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum hello to everyone, azure-nikuko and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure i'm wet with our dismembered and menses and pink flux in hole inevitable deaths in every world distraught dna and her period, my cum, my mouth vagaries of belief in atomic light and that light before the onslaught and that onslaught before the final light bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born and our fucking, wars of innocent nations we are the desert of organ organelles and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence and nothing weathers, nothing soaks and you wear your children in your hair and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure i'm wet with our dismembered and we kill our children 7 pico fil 8 cp fil ~/child 9 cd 10 pico zz 11 awk -f child zz >> zz 12 wc zz 13 pico zz 14 rm zz; pico zz 15 h 16 awk -f child zz >> zz 17 wc zz 18 pico zz 19 h 20 awk -f child zz >> zz 21 wc zz 22 pico zz _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 12:42:23 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Broder Subject: EAR INN CANCELLED MARCH 16 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street New York City FREE March 16 NOTE--READING CANCELLED DUE TO ST. PATRICK'S DAY PARADE!!! March 23 D. Nurkse, Hal Sirowitz March 30 Jan Clausen, Joan Larkin, Molly Peacock For more information, contact Michael Broder or Jason Schneiderman at (212) 246-5074. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:05:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: How to control the world from the palm of your hand In-Reply-To: <3C890C7C00000CEB@mta06.san.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Say ... You want a Revolution??? [PARA] Imagine what it would be like if you could control people's worlds from the palm of your hand - and had the power to contact, feel secure and influence them to agree to practically anything you propose ... what would that be worth to you? In this manner, your reader is a voluntary and willing participant, and becomes happily involved in a decision that you have rendered painless and even enjoyable. Here's the amazing part: You can initiate your reader's absorption sequence at the snap of your fingers when you know the secret codes known as "Tantalum." These Tantalum activate a human predisposition within the reader without any resistance. Geoffrey Gatza mastered the clever use of Tantalum throughout his career, and came up with legendary successes that broke many of the poetic track records of his time. I dare you to use Tantalum in your writing, and create legendary successes of your own. Take this challenge NOW . Obviously, these Tantalum usher in a revolutionary - and immensely more effective - era of poetry. Here's how Tantalum compares to the traditional way of poetry: Traditional Poetry entails the use of absorption "scripts" that are both awkward and unnatural. You probably know them all - dozens of memorized closes, questions rigged with "tie-down" lines that trick the reader into saying "yes," etc. This traditional poetry sequence is contrived, and goes against the natural flow of the reader. And even when readers are thrilled as a result of these high-pressure tactics, it's not because they want the product but because they are cornered or intimidated into the sale. I don't know about you, but this absorption model makes me feel like a con artist after I read the piece. [NL]Poetry With the Use of Tantalum: When you "get into the mind" of your reader, the absorption process becomes a matter of just pushing the right buttons - or more precisely, the right Tantalum. Since you're going with your reader's natural flow, and using a poetry sequence to which your reader is naturally inclined, you eliminate any resistance. Poetry couldn't be easier.[PARA] How Tantalum Were Discovered Geoffrey Gatza, the best-selling poetry author and eccentric editor of BlazeVOX2K2 who achieved legendary fame in avant garde poetics, ran a highly successful mail-order journal in the 1980s, UP&P (ut pictura poesis). Geoffrey learned on a mass scale which approaches worked, and which ones didn't. He studied the poems that achieved a high degree of success, and discovered that they were clearly successful because of certain underlying Tantalum. He identified 30 of these Tantalum that activate forces buried deep within the subconscious brain, and cause people to yearn. In his new ebook Tantalum Geoffrey reveals his startling discovery of how to get into people's minds, eavesdrop on their thoughts, know what they want - and make a fortune in the process. [NL]I'm going to give you a little caveat right here - so listen closely. [PARA][PARA]When you start poetry with the use of Tantalum, your absorption results will be so amazing that you won't want to write any other way. Poetry has never been easier, so easy in fact that you won't want to go back to your old way of poetry ever again! [NL][NL]When you get your hands on Tantalum I am betting you won't be able to put it down. In fact, I'm betting that I couldn't pry it out of your hands if I tried. Tantalum is overflowing with the most mouth-watering secrets you absolutely must have.[NL] Cracking the Code That Reveals Untold Secrets Just as the human genome cracked the genetic code that reveals untold secrets of the human body, Geoffrey Gatza's Tantalum cracked the code that activates a person's excitement sequence. This is the secret code that has eluded the poetry industry for years. Folks, this is not the kind of poetry you grew up with. This is quantum poetry that goes beyond anything you've ever seen or heard. Geoffrey Gatza first discovered the power of Tantalum years ago when he applied to just one Macarthur Fellowship, and it immediately doubled the response to his body of work. Here's the good news: [NL][NL]Now that you realize that applying powerful Tantalum today will turbo-charge your writing to incalculable heights, you'll be surprised to learn that you can have Tantalum for a very small investment of only $29.95. Within 15 minutes, you will receive download and unlock information that will allow you to read Geoffrey Gatza's Tantalum online. You can apply one or more of the Tantalum to your absorption and poetic activities today, and literally generate absorption before the day is over. [NL][NL]Try it now, risk-free. If you are not satisfied, just let me know within 30 days and I will issue a no-hassle refund. Although it is highly unlikely that you would be anything less than thrilled with Tantalum should you decide to request a refund, the free bonus, Secrets of the Written Word is yours to keep and enjoy as my gift just for taking me up on this offer.[NL] ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:33:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kasey Mohammad (Hotmail)" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable on 3/10/02 5:57 AM, Murat Nemet-Nejat at MuratNN@AOL.COM wrote: > since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a > product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very ofte= n > must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to w= rite > his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive > activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, > compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, n= ot a > craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel= . > This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of > economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet = in > the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reas= on, > like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or > alcoholics or cocaine addicts. I like this idea of the poem as anti-product, poet as anti-laborer; I'm not so sure about the addiction analogy. Is it a _consumption_, or more of a refusal of same? To _consume_ is to acquiesce to a cycle of production, commercial interpellation, etc. Poetry (at least the poetry I have in mind= ) blocks up the orifices of that consuming organism. It's a deterritorializing activity. As such it offers no easy narcotic gratification either to the "producer" or to the "consumer" (which can be one and the same). In fact, this could be a gauge of "good" vs. "bad" poetry on an politico-economically conceived scale of value: does it simply reproduce the terms of an odious hegemony, satisfying expectations that hav= e been instilled in order to maintain an inanely self-fulfilling mass aesthetics, or does it stage a public demonstration that interferes with assembly-line productivity and fast-food ideology? Protests and demonstrations might be another kind of activity that falls into this anti-labor category: although they involve the same physical work, intellectual energy, etc., as "official" labor, they consciously position themselves as _in reference to_ or _as exceptions to_ that labor, and therefore outside of it. Narcotic addiction, on the other hand, however much it may perform the incidental and temporary function of disrupting labor, is first and foremost an individual's _escape_ from the system, and as such is illusory, even counter-effective. Poetry, on the other hand, because it is conscious of its illusoriness, allows for the potential of resistant engagement from some new perspective or vantage. The poet knows he is not "really" a body without organs, whereas the junkie may very well forget his or her body exists at all, and thus leaves it open to continued penetration by noxious entities (both the ones he or she has chosen to ingest, and the ones that made the addiction seem desirable in the first place). The poet offers a poem in the shape of a needle, but always knows (and reminds you too) that there is no junk in it, which is both the problem and the blessing.... K. =20 =80=80=20 k. silem mohammad visiting assistant professor of british & anglophone literature university of california santa cruz ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:26:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/10/02 11:45:13 AM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: << In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:29 PM, Austinwja@AOL.COM writes: >Murat >> > >Apologies for inserting myself here. Seems to me that poetry is economically >viable, in the academy. Anthologies, some of them, sell quite well. And >many poets make a living traveling from reading to reading...... So long as poetry is bound and >delivered between two covers with price tag, it's a product, right? The >situation is not all that dissimilar to that of serious (classical?) music >and jazz. Best, Bill > Bill, You touched important issues. No, I don't think the academy is a "compensation" for poems. How many of the poets would get a job if they represented themselves to the search committees without a Phd? In fact, the academy reflects the relation between one's work and who is paying for it. In subtle ways, it forces the poet to write ways which the literary environment of that instotutions considers "good" poetry, "experimental" poetry, etc. A genuinely new poetry, in that sense, may endenger one academic career. It is true that anthologies (and critical writings which quote poems) sell quite well. But that money goes mostly to publishers, not the poets. As Ed Foster pointed out, a poem is worth more as a quotation than as a poem. Making money out of the reading of one's poems is the nearest thing to one's being paid for the poetic labor. But how many poets can make a living out of these readings? Generously, the average payment for a reading is 150/250 dollars (Allen Ginsberg made I think about 2000). One needs at least 20,000.00 a year (in the States) to live. How many of us can give, let's say, 100 readings a year. I would go crazy, and nobody would ask many of us to give that many anyway. What about the time we spent writing the poems? Besides, if one gave a hundred readings, what kind of poems will one end up writing, both to satisfy that schedule and draw the audience for it? What you say is viable for a specific kind of performance poetry -like jazz- where the poet improvises around themes during the performance, where the writing and performing of the poem are one. The point I am making is that for whom the poem is being writing is crucial in determining the form and content (indirectly the class) of the poem. And, since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very often must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to write his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, not a craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel. This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet in the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reason, like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or alcoholics or cocaine addicts. Ciao Murat >> Murat, most of what you say here makes sense to me. As I said in my last post, few poets achieve the status of a Ginsberg (who died a millionaire). But I think you're splitting hairs on the product/process thing. Music is quite obviously a process, but it is also packaged and sold. If the distinction rests on whether or not the artists can anticipate financial reward, then most creative activities do not yield products. Most architects, for example, never see their designs gracing a skyline, nor do they get paid very much for them. They are more likely to provide grunt work for some firm. But that doesn't change the fact that a skyscraper is a product. Likewise, most poets cannot expect much financial reward. They create because they are driven through the process by their own talent and interests -- but the poem is nevertheless a product which can be delivered within two covers, or on a screen. Creating the product involves process, of course, as does experiencing (reading) the product, much as designing the skyscraper, or walking through it's rooms and hallways, does. I think you may be setting two things against each other that are not actually in conflict. Poetry is a product that is not all that welcome in our society, unlike in some other societies. But some products sell, and some don't. Would you claim, for instance, that the writing of novels does not involve a product because most novelists do not make money and novels in the main are not economically viable? A few novels make big bucks, right? Publishers are willing to dump a lot of this product on the market in the hope that some of it will sell. Some poetry does sell. Determining the product nature of a text according to how well it sells seems to put the cart before the horse. If it's available for sale, or consumption in any way, it's a product. We might even argue that the poet who stands before an audience is a product generated by his texts, and at the same time a process that must be experienced in time. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 18:35:44 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT this may be a tangent, but I was reminded today somewhat harshly that being a parent never ends. BEING a poet never ends. BEING alive never ends. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:57 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:29 PM, Austinwja@AOL.COM writes: > > >Murat >> > > > >Apologies for inserting myself here. Seems to me that poetry is economically > >viable, in the academy. Anthologies, some of them, sell quite well. And > >many poets make a living traveling from reading to reading...... So long as > poetry is bound and > >delivered between two covers with price tag, it's a product, right? The > >situation is not all that dissimilar to that of serious (classical?) music > >and jazz. Best, Bill > > > > Bill, > > You touched important issues. No, I don't think the academy is a > "compensation" for poems. How many of the poets would get a job if they > represented themselves to the search committees without a Phd? In fact, the > academy reflects the relation between one's work and who is paying for it. In > subtle ways, it forces the poet to write ways which the literary environment > of that instotutions considers "good" poetry, "experimental" poetry, etc. A > genuinely new poetry, in that sense, may endenger one academic career. > > It is true that anthologies (and critical writings which quote poems) sell > quite well. But that money goes mostly to publishers, not the poets. As Ed > Foster pointed out, a poem is worth more as a quotation than as a poem. > > Making money out of the reading of one's poems is the nearest thing to one's > being paid for the poetic labor. But how many poets can make a living out of > these readings? Generously, the average payment for a reading is 150/250 > dollars (Allen Ginsberg made I think about 2000). One needs at least > 20,000.00 a year (in the States) to live. How many of us can give, let's say, > 100 readings a year. I would go crazy, and nobody would ask many of us to > give that many anyway. What about the time we spent writing the poems? > Besides, if one gave a hundred readings, what kind of poems will one end up > writing, both to satisfy that schedule and draw the audience for it? > What you say is viable for a specific kind of performance poetry -like jazz- > where the poet improvises around themes during the performance, where the > writing and performing of the poem are one. > > The point I am making is that for whom the poem is being writing is crucial > in determining the form and content (indirectly the class) of the poem. And, > since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a > product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very often > must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to write > his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive > activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, > compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, not a > craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel. > This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of > economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet in > the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reason, > like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or > alcoholics or cocaine addicts. > > Ciao > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:04:42 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT it might help clarify things to distinguish between working class and the working class ethic. I have a prospective son-in-law who subscribes to the 'ethic' that a woman's place is in the house but time will tell if he works and brings home the bacon? tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:01:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ray Bianchi Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think that this discussion of a working class poetics has merit. The problem is who is having the discussion on a working class poetics; academics. I worked in Latin America for 8 years first in Bolivia and then in Brazil. I worked for an NGO working with inmates in prision. The people that I worked with were truly working class, that means that they had no savings, working with their bodies for a living doing hard, dirty jobs and they were caught int a cycle of employment violence that lead them to dispair but also to push for real social change. I am genuinely interested in what these folks have to say poetically. The problem is that I do not share their lives and most writers of poetry and fiction today do not share these lives either. these people have no voice and I cannot create one for them because I do not share their struggles. Even a poet who is radical like Amiri Baraka is more in the Middle Class because of the fact that they do not live in that type of world. The problem is that we objectivfy what should be a subject, people who work hard. I would challenge people to think about this when talking about a poetic of work. ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:51 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg one > would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically "charged" > or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the continuing > military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may > also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some > aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA (perceived > "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim to > have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the > heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say some > John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means > they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the > working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be > Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all his > work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays of > course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving at" > but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, poetry > etc. Regards, Richard. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Bianchi" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working class > > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and > > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are > > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they > are. > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not the > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > RB > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "michael amberwind" > > To: > > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > > > What you said about working people often having > > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > > others. > > > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > > high school I had what would probably now be > > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > > boredom. > > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > > in. > > > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > > This is a University town. People who go to > > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > > - > > > would get you through the night. > > > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > > From: Millie Niss > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > > but working class is > > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > > father's house > > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > > problmes dealt with > > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > > are professionals (though > > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > > financial situations) & I > > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > > and was trying to get > > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > > projects, so we had something > > > > in common... > > > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > > like the problems of the > > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > > often at decent union rates. > > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > > was still below the poverty > > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > > When you are working, you > > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > > went away, but that's because > > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > > did not mean moving back into > > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > > little income now, but like many > > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > > and am talking about are > > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > > day, but you have to carry > > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > > to read poetry, but you > > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > > sleep because the room held > > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > > library but you have taught > > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > > the book at the right distance > > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > > have to quit the job or get > > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > > appointments. > > > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > > agency... > > > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > > poetry, the way working class > > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > > only because that's what's > > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > > again if they didn't have to > > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > > medical care or enough money for > > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > > experiences make good poetry > > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > > not myself usually that taken > > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > > situation who would stop and > > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > > camille roy > > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > > mainstream not because you > > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > > white american poets but > > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > > very queer spoken word > > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > > interest in theory. > > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > > experience is suspicious > > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > > a woman I actually > > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > > have been putting together > > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > > This is one hell of rich > > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > > follow the paradigm of > > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > > consciousness about the > > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > > lives. The white (american) > > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > > persuasive and transformative > > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:13:52 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat. In further comment.The Marxist definition(s) of the world I think are useful and (in many aspects) true enough: but big areas of human activity and thought are not discussed - especially by the kind of "hard-atheists" or "hard Materialists". (I cant be either of those). The latter - I'm using Materialist in its philosophic sense as opposed to Idealist ) would probably not have much time for the subtleties of whether a poem was a "product"...but to summarise a bit crudely at this stage: that is partly the reason that the Soviet system failed well before even Stalin came to power: or it was headed for disastor...that is kind of fanatic observance of Marxism without the realisation that religion, for example, has its place, and so does various kinds of art: other factors were the invasion by the West: sabortage from within and without, Revisionism, the 2 WW and so on. In fact the French and Russian revolutions were in many ways revolutions to facilitate the advent of Capitalism. Maybe also in some repects the Chinese revolution... But the class analysis of Marx and much of his philosophy is still very vital today. As to the product of the poet: as a poet I dont think about those things much. Sure, I value what I've done, but I just get on with it. I'm not pessimistic (neccessarily - or at least I dont see "our times" in a way (sub specie aeternitatis) as any worse (or better) than any other: granted we as the "Great European Culture" have produced at least two monumentaly barbaric wars of which those of the East (except Japan) cant boast their equal: but that aside I dont think we are nearing the "end" (although I suppose we could be)) but I dont have much hope for my or most peoples' poetry having much influence on anyone or anything: visual and other arts and pop music and sex and movies and videos and television and sport seem to get all the publicity, which I suppose is natural: and poets are doomed to struggle alone...and yet I believe that we are: "The unacknowledged legislators of the world." And strangely, also, I believe in the enormous power of the word. Despite other media and what I've just said: the pen is still mightier than the sword. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 5:08 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > In a message dated 3/4/02 4:05:50 PM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: > > >Ken. You're roght I think i much you say: but he strict definion of working > > > >class would actually include everyone EXCEPT people who own the meeans > >of > > > >production. > > Richard, > > But a poet absolutely owns his or her means of production --for a "product" > which essentially nobody wants. How do you deal with that? > > Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 19:07:57 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pete Balestrieri Subject: Email for Kenneth Gangemi? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Does anyone have an email or home address for Kenneth Gangemi? I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Pete Balestrieri P.S. Does anyone know how I can get my hands on Ray Federman's first two books of poetry? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:36:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: a goodbye to all that MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - a goodbye to all that a terrible politics of response/attack, and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure, and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum, and my lips glisten with our dying children, and nothing weathers, nothing soaks, and our fucking, wars of innocent nations, and that light before the onslaught, and that onslaught before the final light, and you wear your children in your hair, and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence, and bloody clots, semen dribbling in my eyes - bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born, and desperate desiccation, distraught dna ... hello to everyone, azure-nikuko - and her period, my cum, my mouth - i'm wet with our dismembered and inevitable deaths in every world. look, blood drying everywhere around us, menses, and my teeth glisten with our children - pink flux in hole and red-pink flux on rod and semen ... vagaries of belief in atomic light - we are the desert of organ organelles. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 10:30:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Wotan The Warrior When I questioned Wotan as to their bio material they told me "being the god(dess) of poetic inspiration, Wotan, is who I am, for better or worse", so I left it at that. Wotan has a story out in the current (might be one issue back at this point) issue of E-corpse and stuff forthcoming in Milk Magazine. Their website can be found at wotanswarriors@5u.com, and we have wotan@geek.com as an email address. Biore Pore Strips Fricka did those pore strips again the other night and they totally pulled out all this little white hairy fuzz off her nose, chin and chest -- though no pimple gook. Then Romeo called and started moaning about the pictures from the wedding. She claimed you could see her facial hair in the photo. She said, "I look like Frieda Kalo!" "Try Biore pore strips, that's what Fricka uses." "Is that hair that comes out when you use those? That can’t be good!" "It doesn't seem to happen to the other Valkyries," I admitted. Fricka is the only one, apparently, who has lots of white fuzz. Secretly, I am rather concerned about this and wish I hadn't known. But I kept a breezy attitude up about it with Romeo. "But, hey! Try it! I'll send you one the next time she does it." Romeo agreed to go buy some and we agree to mail them to each other in film canisters. Before she hung up though, I said, "Don't bother to send yours if there's nothing to see." Fractured penis There are other things I wish I hadn't known. Take for instance the fractured penis I picked up the other night. You could have gone your whole life without knowing that when fully erect, a penis can be broken; am I right? And that what you’re left with is one heck of a sore and very bent penis? When the reconstructive surgeon asked if the patient happened to have a picture of it (before the mishap, that is), I couldn’t help but laugh. Seemed straight forward enough -- I mean, I wouldn’t need a picture; it’s bent - unbend it. Don’t make what’s simple hard. "Can’t they just use my yearbook picture?" the guy with the fractured penis quipped. At least he had a sense of humor about it. Nostalgic I remember how my mother would put my little brother in a tailor tot in the back of the station wagon and tether him in so he could roll around back there as we drove. I remember the time she put him in the trunk but we could still hear him screaming in there. And once she did that with the dog, but he chewed out all the headlight cable. Excerpts from The Story of Wotan Wotan hatched out as a fingerling rainbow trout during an April snowstorm in the wilds of the Adirondacks -- practically, but tragically, not quite Canada, and was promptly named after the tallest mountain peak in the region. Raised by an extremely zany, outdoorsy and artistic, yet uptight Puritan couple -- I'm talking "Pilgrim's Progress" here, Wotan was subjected to a lonely childhood on a remote woodland farm, and knew far more many dogs and horses than people in those formative pre-school years. Going off to Kindergarten was a great relief to the lonely child Wotan, for attracting young and old with a uniquely sunny aura was Wotan's gift. Wotan secured the love of classmates by drawing Ski-doos for the boys and sunbonnet babies for the girls. Right from the get go, Wotan was in big demand. REAL ADIRONDACKERS (Part I) Sledybump Rabatoy Sweetheart Holmes Pinzy Bond Gizzy Cutzer Poop Guyette Buckshot Wojewodzic Dets Catanzarita Suitcase Simpson Tinny Lanzo Bugs Williams Cooney Baird Baldie Vanderhof The Brace Boys: Brownie, Blackie, Red & Whitie Wotan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 14:36:36 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: anne waldman query In-Reply-To: <20020308111747.47310.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" can anybody give me the citation for where anne waldman makes her famous parodic statement about making the world safe for poetry? thanks in advance. bests, md ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 20:19:12 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Fouhy Subject: NWCA POETRY Celebrates Women's Month MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Northern Westchester Center for the Arts 272 N. Bedford Road Mt. Kisco,NY 10549 914 241 6922 For Immediate Release: Creative Arts Café Poetry Series Springs into Women’s Month Poets: Marj Hahne, Suzanne Cleary, Sally Bliumis and Marilyn A. Johnson Mt. Kisco, NY: March brings Spring and the celebration of the achievements of women. The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series honors women in the arts with a month long selection of women poets. March 11th begins with Philadelphia poet Marj Hahne followed by March 18th Poet Suzanne Cleary celebrating her new book Keeping Time (Carnegie Melon U. Press, 2002). Both readings begin at 7:30 PM in the Art Gallery at NWCA and are followed by a reception and an open mike. March 20th, NWCA goes to the Flying Pig Farm Market Café at the Mt. Kisco Train Station to celebrate the first day of Spring with Poets Sally Bliumis and Marilyn A Johnson. The reading at the Flying Pig begins at 7:00PM and is followed by an open mike. Marj Hahne is a poet and an educator. Recently transplanted from Philadelphia to New York City, she teaches poetry workshops to children and adults at schools, museums, bookstores, and conferences. She has performed her poetry in Philadelphia, New York, and San Francisco, and will be reading in Texas this April. Marj has been published in "Painted Bride Quarterly," "Mad Poets Review," "La Petite Zine," "Bum Rush the Page: A Def Poetry Jam Anthology," and a forthcoming anthology, "Decades of a Woman." She has also self-published two collections of poetry, "Finding What Hides" and "Remembrance: for September 11, 2001" (7WenchesPress), and is recording a spoken word CD. Sharon Olds best expresses for Marj why she writes and teaches poetry and why she shares what she writes: "To the poet, the human community is like the community of birds to a bird, singing to each other. Love is one of the reasons we are singing to one another, love of language itself, love of sound, love of singing itself, and love of the other birds." Marj wants to (re)awaken people to the restorative power of words, that is, to poetry as another mode of artistic expression that can embolden people toward real self-empowerment and ultimately toward a collective healing. Award Winning Poet Suzanne Cleary is the author of a new book Keeping Time (Pittsburgh Carnegie Mellon U Press, 202). She is recipient of numerous awards including: Artist’s Residency in Poetry, Vermont Studio Center, 2000; the Arvon International Poetry Competition, 1992 and 1998; Emerging Poets Competition, Aldrich Museum, 1996; New Letters Poetry Award, 1994; Poetry Society of America Cecil Hemley Memorial Award, 1993; Southern Poetry Review Guy Owen Award, 1992; NY Foundation for the Arts Artist’s Fellowship in Poetry, 1987. Born and raised in Binghampton NY, Suzanne Cleary earned an MA is Writing from Washington U and Ph.D. in Literature and Criticism from Indiana University of PA. Her poems and book reviews have appeared in many journals. Dr. Cleary is associate Professor of English Literature at Manhattanville College. Readings by Poets Sally Bliumis and Marilyn A. Johnson will be at the Flying Pig Farm Market Café as part of the monthly collaborative readings between NWCA and the Flying Pig Café. The March 20th reading will begin at 7:00 and celebrates both Women’s Month AND the First Day of Spring! The audience is may come early and order dinner and beverages, from a luscious menu (including an extensive selection of wine) before the reading at the Flying Pig Café. Hosted by NWCA’s Literary Arts Director Cindy Beer-Fouhy, the readings are located in a café setting in the spacious Art Gallery of the Northern Westchester Center for the Arts. An open mike for poets in the audience will follow intermission. Suggested donation is $7.00 including the pre-reading reception. The Creative Arts Café Poetry Series is funded by the New York State Council on the Arts and the Bydale Foudation. The Creative Arts Cafe is located in the gallery of Northern Westchester Center for the Arts, 272 North Bedford Road, Mt. Kisco, on Rte 117, near Staples. For further information, call Cindy Beer-Fouhy at NWCA, 241 6922. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:27:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit " >Here's how the IWW decides how to figure out your social situation. >It's >their first question on eligibility for membership: "You must be a >worker >(not an employer), and you cannot have the power to hire and/or >fire." >Simple. Nothing about how much you earn, etc., though dues are keyed >to >that. Sylvester " this may not be as simple as it seems; i have the power to hire and fire my student assistant--it is a ten-hour a week position.... (sometimes it's an undergard, at the moment a graduate student) ..obviously she does not depend on it for her livlihood.... and hopes to go on to a primarily intellectual and middle-class career; but at the same time, anyone who works that much while going to school & (not least here at this university, where most of the students are affluent) definitely has had to make some tough decisions... there are many intermediate class postions, is my point.. one of the great things about the wooblies is the straightfoward simplicity of their analysis and strategy and goals (they continue into the present some of the best elements of working-class revolutionary activism, ones which are generally shunned and dissed by intellectuals, who in the past (in the US) were often trained to despise anarchism..1989 began to alter this); but that clarity and simplicity are also in my opinion part of their weakness... --one person at least, has mentioned, as part of this thread, that it is a redux (re-do) of earlier similar threads.. several lurkerish friends have also mentioned this to me; ... in turn, and i'm probably not the first to say this, i'm struck by how intense the discussion is, when the list in recent years cannot sustain actual discussions of poetics (officially, its focus)... this exchange has sometimes been excellent, sometimes treading water.... but it is remarkable that poetry and poetix are not capable of sustaining such energy and interest... my guess, 1. there is at this moment a lack of shared tools, for exploration of issues regarding poetry, among the population that is currently inhabiting the list.. and, of course (as has often been noted), 2. a checkered history of flame wars and meltdowns make people here gun-shy about issues that might generate ego clashes, and it appears that talking about the thing we share most intensely does just that; ... this second point interests me very much; because i suspect it says something about the feel that the poetry community has right now: one of unease, distrust, and a lack of respect and supportiveness beyong small personal circles.. m. POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU writes: >Here's how the IWW decides how to figure out your social situation. >It's >their first question on eligibility for membership: "You must be a >worker >(not an employer), and you cannot have the power to hire and/or >fire." >Simple. Nothing about how much you earn, etc., though dues are keyed >to >that. Sylvester ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:54:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Damian Judge Rollison Subject: Dr. Strangelove In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1864000/1864173.stm Saturday, 9 March, 2002, 17:01 GMT US 'has nuclear hit list' "First use" has been unthinkable for years The Bush administration has reportedly ordered the Pentagon to prepare contingency plans for attacking seven countries with nuclear weapons. Quoting a secret Pentagon report, the Los Angeles Times newspaper names China, Russia, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Libya and Syria as potential targets. I can imagine what these countries are going to be saying at the UN-Joseph Cirincione, nuclear arms expert Furthermore, the military have apparently been directed to build smaller nuclear weapons for battlefield use. The Pentagon has declined to comment on the report which analysts have described as "dynamite". According to the paper, the report lists three situations in which the weapons could be used. These include "retaliation for attack with nuclear, biological or chemical weapons" and "against targets able to withstand non-nuclear attack". The third category - "in the event of surprising military developments" - is described by the BBC's Washington correspondent, Paul Reynolds, as a "catch-all" clause. The paper says the report was presented by the Pentagon to members of Congress on Friday. It is quoted as saying the Pentagon should be ready to use nuclear weapons in an Arab-Israeli conflict, a war between China and Taiwan and an attack by North Korea on the South. As for Russia, the report says that it is only listed in view of its own large nuclear arsenal and it is not viewed as an enemy. 'Taboo lifted' Defence analysts told the Los Angeles Times that the secret report appeared to mark the first time an official list of target countries had come to light. "I can imagine what these countries are going to be saying at the UN," said Joseph Cirincione, a nuclear arms expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. Dr Strangelove is clearly still alive in the Pentagon-John Isaacs arms control campaigner The report clearly referred to nuclear arms as a "tool for fighting a war, rather than deterring them", he added. Anti-nuclear campaigners pointed out that the reported instruction to build new tactical nuclear weapons indicated that the administration of George W Bush was more willing to lift the old taboo on using nuclear weapons except as a last resort. "This is very, very dangerous talk," said John Isaacs, president of the Council for a Livable World. "Dr Strangelove is clearly still alive in the Pentagon," he commented, referring to a 1964 feature film about a nightmare nuclear conflict between the US and the Soviet Union. Our correspondent recalls that the US made a veiled threat to Iraq during the Gulf War that it could respond with nuclear weapons to an attack by Baghdad using chemical or biological weapons. WATCH/LISTEN ON THIS STORY The BBC's Nikolai Gorshkov "Russian diplomats will be expecting detailed explanations" Key stories Q&A: Son of Star Wars ABM Treaty explained Bush's policy Hurdles on the way The world's arsenal Guru behind NMD What the world thinks Russia's missile fears View from China Britain's role 'Rogue' states CLICKABLE GUIDE How it could work See also: 13 Dec 01 | Americas America withdraws from ABM treaty 10 Jan 02 | Europe Russia attacks US missile plans 05 Feb 02 | Americas Analysis: Risks of Bush defence strategy 15 Feb 02 | Americas Britain and US conduct nuclear test Internet links: The White House United Nations on disarmament Carnegie Endowment for International Peace Los Angeles Times Council for a Livable World The BBC is not responsible for the content of external internet sites http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1864000/1864173.stm <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< damian judge rollison department of english/ institute for advanced technology in the humanities university of virginia djr4r@virginia.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:33:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - the coot aren't plentiful as before; some areas seem inundated, some | relatively dry. we pull ourselves among the mangrove roots; i climb out in | the midst of golden orb and shield spiders. later, poison ivy wound its | way around everything, we watched egrets preening, a lone woodstork on top | of a pine. these hunkered down in solution holes surrounded by alligator | flag. earlier, a common yellowthroat. later, fireflies, more brilliant | than ever. they're condensations of angels; they will light the way. rain | and no rain coming. land's end and delineation of the rest of the world, | the center. of nothing, the beyond. :behind the pelican, loons, i think, | distant as ever. the anhinga are close to leaving the nest, trying their | wings; we see only two, the third may have already left, may have died. in | the dusk a dark snake crosses. earlier, a black mangrove snake in attack | mode, the camera closing in. later, the bald eagle hatchling close to | leaving as well, dark-headed, world-surveying. on turner river, parade of | alligators. earlier, an old crocodile at land's end, turned from the | water; he'll follow inundation, come safe and harbored in. :everglades, | we're pushed to the edge, land's end, down in the water, we're returning | on the highway, running 60, there's a thing in the road, dark alligator, | we're thrown to a halt, run out, stop traffic. she's sitting there. we | wave cars and trucks slow around. someone comes, moves the tail. she | gets up hissing, trots off, we get back in the car, take off. there's | everglades deer ahead on the right - elusive in these parts, they run off. | on the mangrove roots, closeup: barnacles, limpets, mussels, mangrove | oysters, worm tubings. i dream of land's end images, they claw at me, go | down in water of the continent. :fakahatchie: _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 12:17:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Tysh Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 6 Mar 2002 to 9 Mar 2002 (#2002-39) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Greetings all, The new issue of mark(s) is up on the screen, featuring new work by Rosmarie Waldrop, Aaron shurin and Lewis Warsh; an e-dailogue with Brett Stalbaum and Ben Eakins; web art by Stephen Magsig, Kai Kim and Machyderm, Inc. visit the site and its archives at: http;//www.markszine.com Chris Tysh, editor __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 16:24:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: leading a writing workshop Comments: To: Webartery List MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am leading a poetry writing workshop for some mentally ill peopple who've asked me to (already did a workshop reading poems), and I hope you can give me some advice... There should be 5-10 p[articiplants (there were 6-7 at the reading workshop I did). I have taught before, but over the net, and I'm used to doing eight week courses where people have time to write their poems and don't have to produce them on the spot... I'd like to do concrete poetry. What I really want for this are those Letraset letters that transfer onto a page that graphic designers used to use before computers. Does anyone know if these are still available? I'd like to buy sheets of differently sized and colored letters so that people can really play around. The things still existed in the early 90's when I was fond of using them as labels in diagrams I did for math homework, but I wonder if they are all gone now... You used to be able to get hundreds of different fonts and sizes and doodads and so on. Secondly, does anyone know of an anthology of concrete poetry? I showed them last time some really cook layouts (although they are supposedly "prose") from Kenneth Patchen's _Sleeper's Awake_, and I have the anthology edited by Rothenberg and Joris which has some, but I am looking for examples that require a small number of letters so that they can be inspiration for something you could do in half an hour or a little more... The whole workshop is to last two hours. I want to do exercises that focus in some way on what I had them read last time. The authors were Kenneth Patchen, James Tate, Clark Coolidge, Robert Lowell, Randall Jarrell, Allen Ginsberg [Kaddish, for thematic reasons], Lisa Lewis [because she write a poem about a friend on medication]) and if I had had time I would have added Janet Frame, John Berryman, Delmore Schwartz... I can always use old standards like giving out three words and getting people to write poems about or using them, or going around in a circle adding lines to a collective poem, but it would be fun to do something different. (On the other hand, if these people haven't done the standard exercises, then they won't see them as old standards...) It's totally off topic from what I did last time, but I think it might be fun to write a collective villanelle, where we work together on the two repeating lines and then each person supplies the lines that chnage. Millie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:45:14 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: C21P event announcement: Directions in Contemporary Poetry and Poetics In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable please announce and distribute: Twenty-First Century Poetics, in cooperation with the Consortium for the Arts, the UCB Department of English, and the Townsend Center for the Humanities, announces: Interverse: Directions in Contemporary Poetry and Poetics March 15 and 20, 2002 (NOTE date change for second session) Berkeley Center for Writers 2275 Virginia Street, Berkeley This conference is being organized by C21 Poetics, the 21st Century Poetics working group at the Townsend Center for the Humanities, in conjunction wit= h their ongoing reading and discussion series. Interverse aims to pursue the conjunction of theoretical poetics work and the practice of writing poetry as a necessity, thus arguing against the division of labor currently prevalent in the American field. The goal is to present actual conjunctions of such work, including both individuals who practice each pursuit and moments of collaboration between participants. Each participant has done or is actively engaged with such collaborative work -- not just between poetry and poetics, or between practitioners, but also between genres, media, and disciplines. The hope is that this conference will lead to a larger-scale on-site collaboration, with an added goal of promoting an enduring, collaborative poetry/poetics community in the Bay Area. Session One: Friday, March 15, 2002 6:30 pm potluck, 8 pm reading Juliana Spahr, co-editor of Chain and author of Fuck You-Aloha-I Love You, Response, and Everybody=B9s Autonomy: Connective Reading and Collective Identity, and Lytle Shaw, editor of Shark and author of Cable Factory 20 an= d The Lobe, will read from their work and discuss site specificity and Hawaii as a particular (gendered, colonial, anti-colonial) site. Session Two: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 6:30 pm potluck, 8 pm reading Jennifer Moxley, editor of The Impercipient Lecture Series and author of Imagination Verses, Wrong Life, Impervious To Starlight, and The Sense Record, and Steve Evans, editor of The Impercipient Lecture Series, author of The Dynamics of Literary Change, and creator of the online series Notes To Poetry, will read from their work and discuss directions in contemporary verse experimentalism. Conference sessions are open to all interested parties; guests are asked to arrive on time, bring food or drink, and help clean up afterwards if possible. Conference coordinators are Jennifer Scappettone of C21 Poetics and Joshua Clover, Holloway Lecturer in Poetry in the Department of English= . For more information, directions to the Berkeley Center for Writers, or to be added to the C21 Poetics mailing list and receive a full schedule of events, please email jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu or janedark@mindspring.com. Michele Rabkin Associate Director Consortium for the Arts at UC Berkeley/ Arts Research Center 442 Wheeler Hall #1054 Berkeley, CA 94720-1054 tel (510)642-4268 fax (510)642-6112 http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/bca/ ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 14:51:15 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "J. Scappettone" Subject: C21P event announcement: Directions in Contemporary Poetry and Poetics In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear List Liasons: I've realized that the previous posting (sent around a minute ago) containe= d formatting which may be illegible on some computers. Please post this one instead if you are able. With gratitude, Jen Scappettone Please announce and distribute: Twenty-First Century Poetics, in cooperation with the Consortium for the Arts, the UCB Department of English, and the Townsend Center for the Humanities, announces: Interverse: Directions in Contemporary Poetry and Poetics March 15 and 20, 2002 (NOTE date change for second session) Berkeley Center for Writers 2275 Virginia Street, Berkeley This conference is being organized by C21 Poetics, the 21st Century Poetics working group at the Townsend Center for the Humanities, in conjunction wit= h their ongoing reading and discussion series. Interverse aims to pursue the conjunction of theoretical poetics work and the practice of writing poetry as a necessity, thus arguing against the division of labor currently prevalent in the American field. The goal is to present actual conjunctions of such work, including both individuals who practice each pursuit and moments of collaboration between participants. Each participant has done or is actively engaged with such collaborative work -- not just between poetry and poetics, or between practitioners, but also between genres, media, and disciplines. The hope is that this conference will lead to a larger-scale on-site collaboration, with an added goal of promoting an enduring, collaborative poetry/poetics community in the Bay Area. Session One: Friday, March 15, 2002 6:30 pm potluck, 8 pm reading Juliana Spahr, co-editor of Chain and author of Fuck You-Aloha-I Love You, Response, and Everybody=B9s Autonomy: Connective Reading and Collective Identity, and Lytle Shaw, editor of Shark and author of Cable Factory 20 an= d The Lobe, will read from their work and discuss site specificity and Hawaii as a particular (gendered, colonial, anti-colonial) site. Session Two: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 6:30 pm potluck, 8 pm reading Jennifer Moxley, editor of The Impercipient Lecture Series and author of Imagination Verses, Wrong Life, Impervious To Starlight, and The Sense Record, and Steve Evans, editor of The Impercipient Lecture Series, author of The Dynamics of Literary Change, and creator of the online series Notes To Poetry, will read from their work and discuss directions in contemporary verse experimentalism. Conference sessions are open to all interested parties; guests are asked to arrive on time, bring food or drink, and help clean up afterwards if possible. Conference coordinators are Jennifer Scappettone of C21 Poetics and Joshua Clover, Holloway Lecturer in Poetry in the Department of English= . For more information, directions to the Berkeley Center for Writers, or to be added to the C21 Poetics mailing list and receive a full schedule of events, please email jscape@socrates.berkeley.edu or janedark@mindspring.com. Michele Rabkin Associate Director Consortium for the Arts at UC Berkeley/ Arts Research Center 442 Wheeler Hall #1054 Berkeley, CA 94720-1054 tel (510)642-4268 fax (510)642-6112 http://www.bampfa.berkeley.edu/bca/ ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message ------ End of Forwarded Message ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 22:57:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not the > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > RB tho i guess one would have to be assuming that all mfa students did not grow up the children of carpenters or steel workers... i happen to be in the mfa program at brown...happen also to be the son of a former ship-builder, now construction worker...grown up at the edge of a barrio, less than two miles from tijuana...did the gang thing for a while...did the graffiti thing as well... tho i guess "it's not where you're from, but where you're at" (pulling out my obscure quote book from mid-80's rap music) Jerrold Shiroma, director duration press www.durationpress.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Bianchi" To: Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:01 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > I think that this discussion of a working class poetics has merit. The > problem is who is having the discussion on a working class poetics; > academics. I worked in Latin America for 8 years first in Bolivia and then > in Brazil. I worked for an NGO working with inmates in prision. > The people that I worked with were truly working class, that means that they > had no savings, working with their bodies for a living doing hard, dirty > jobs and they were caught int a cycle of employment violence that lead them > to dispair but also to push for real social change. I am genuinely > interested in what these folks have to say poetically. The problem is that > I do not share their lives and most > writers of poetry and fiction today do not share these lives either. these > people have no voice and I cannot create one for them because I do not share > their struggles. > > Even a poet who is radical like Amiri Baraka is more in the Middle Class > because of the fact that they do not live in that type of world. The > problem is that we objectivfy what should be a subject, people who work > hard. I would challenge people to think about this when talking about a > poetic of work. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richard.tylr" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:51 AM > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg one > > would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically > "charged" > > or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the > continuing > > military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may > > also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some > > aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA (perceived > > "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim to > > have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the > > heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say > some > > John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means > > they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the > > working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be > > Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all > his > > work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays of > > course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving at" > > but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, > poetry > > etc. Regards, Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray Bianchi" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working > class > > > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and > > > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are > > > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they > > are. > > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not > the > > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > > > RB > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "michael amberwind" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > > > > > What you said about working people often having > > > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > > > others. > > > > > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > > > high school I had what would probably now be > > > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > > > boredom. > > > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > > > in. > > > > > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > > > This is a University town. People who go to > > > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > > > - > > > > would get you through the night. > > > > > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > > > From: Millie Niss > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > > > but working class is > > > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > > > father's house > > > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > > > problmes dealt with > > > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > > > are professionals (though > > > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > > > financial situations) & I > > > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > > > and was trying to get > > > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > > > projects, so we had something > > > > > in common... > > > > > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > > > like the problems of the > > > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > > > often at decent union rates. > > > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > > > was still below the poverty > > > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > > > When you are working, you > > > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > > > went away, but that's because > > > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > > > did not mean moving back into > > > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > > > little income now, but like many > > > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > > > and am talking about are > > > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > > > day, but you have to carry > > > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > > > to read poetry, but you > > > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > > > sleep because the room held > > > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > > > library but you have taught > > > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > > > the book at the right distance > > > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > > > have to quit the job or get > > > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > > > appointments. > > > > > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > > > agency... > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > > > poetry, the way working class > > > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > > > only because that's what's > > > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > > > again if they didn't have to > > > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > > > medical care or enough money for > > > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > > > experiences make good poetry > > > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > > > not myself usually that taken > > > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > > > situation who would stop and > > > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > > > camille roy > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > > > mainstream not because you > > > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > > > white american poets but > > > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > > > very queer spoken word > > > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > > > interest in theory. > > > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > > > experience is suspicious > > > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > > > a woman I actually > > > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > > > have been putting together > > > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > > > This is one hell of rich > > > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > > > follow the paradigm of > > > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > > > consciousness about the > > > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > > > lives. The white (american) > > > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > > > persuasive and transformative > > > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 23:43:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael Subject: BIG BRIDGE NEW ISSUE VOLUME 2 ISSUE 3 IS UP AND LOADED MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BIG BRIDGE http://www.bigbridge.org is pleased to = announce =20 VOLUME 2 , ISSUE 3 FEATURE CHAPBOOK:=20 HUNGRY TILL I LEARNED THE WORD FOR CORN by Renee Gregorio=20 with Illustrations by Nancy = Victoria Davis POETRY:=20 Lewis Warsh, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, Jack Collom, Aaron Couch, Gwynne = Garfinkle, Drew Gardner,=20 Claudia Grinnel (w/art), David Highsmith, Billy Little, Rick London, = Judith Malina, Markk, Duncan McNaughton, Nicole Mauro, Frank Parker, Michael Price, Susan = Terris, Lorenzo Thomas,=20 Michael Rothenberg Philip Shiemann, Mark Presnejean, William Minor = (w/art), Lewis LaCook FICTION/NON-FICTION Review of Joanne Kyger's AGAIN by Miriam Sagan Review of Joanne Kyger's STRANGE BIG MOON by Lindo Russo Review of Bill Berkson's FUGUE STATE by Adam DeGraff=20 Review of Jack Collom's Red Car Goes By Review of Mike Topp's I Used to Be Ashamed of My Striped Face =20 A Dirty Bird in a Square Time: Whalen's Poetry by Bruce Holsapple Poetics of Prayer by Louise Landes Levi Keith Abbot's: Jim in Bolinas, A Memoir of Jim Gustafson Interview with Jean Baudrillard in Paris by Nina Zivanovich Ward Kelly's new novel DIVINE MURDER(excerpts)=20 LITTLE MAGS:=20 Fish Drum Goodie Blue Book (is back!!!) ART:=20 Glyph Poems by John Brandi Brush and Ink by Robert Brown=20 The Art of Claudio Parentela =20 MUSIC: "shuffle boil - a magazine of poets and music" edited by David = Meltzer & Steve Dickison from The Music Space by Daniel Moore =20 Guns 'n Roses Concert, Hershey Park, 1991 by Daniel Nester IRA COHEN:=20 "My Dad" by Lakshmi Cohen w/ photos of Ira's apartment by Michael = Rothenberg=20 SEPTEMBER 11, 2001-THE LANGUAGE OF WAR AND PEACE Bill Berkson, Joanne Kyger, Josephine Clare, Jack Collom, Dick Gallup, = Anne Waldman, Michael McClure, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Duncan McNaughton, = Tom Clark, Hammond Guthrie, Mike Topp, David Meltzer, Steve Allen May, = Sarah Menefee, Zoketsu Norman Fischer, Ira Cohen, Gabor Gyukics, Daniel = Moore, Ammiel Alcalay, Steve Ben Israel, Jonh Brandi, Jennifer Birkett, = Hanon Reznikoff, Stefan Hyner, Mary Sands, Michael Castro, Rick London, = Roxanne Poormon Gupta, William Slaughter, Renee Gregorio, RhondaK, = Andrew Shelley, Miriam Sagan, Andrew Schelling, Michael Rothenberg, = Louise Landes Levi. GOOFBOOK by Philip Whalen (NEW) Big Bridge Press announces publication of Philip Whalen's GOOFBOOK for = Jack Kerouac. Written in 1961, Whalen says, GOOFBOOK is: "A book for = Jack, saying whatever I want to say..." Edited by Michael Rothenberg. = Cover photo: Philip Whalen and Jack Kerouac by Walter Lehrman. = Paperback. 34pp. Order from: Big Bridge Press, 2000 Highway 1, Pacifica, CA 94044, Checks = payable to Big Bridge Press-- 11 dollars plus 4.00 postage. ISBN: = 1-878471-07-4. See you there Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:59:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: us addicts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit this is extremely amusing...and except maybe for the sardonic list of substance-abusers at the end, i think it's very accurate; ...i have sometimes made a similar point in conversation, tho never so articulately,,.... poetry (in a way that *stands out* from many other art activities, ones which draw a greater degree of institutional/financial support in our economy) is defined by extreme economic marginality... this has more to do with what and how we do what we do, and how we interact, than many think.. i find these points in some ways more interesting than our more orthodox, jargony attempts to locate poets within a class analysis stricto sensu.. mark "The point I am making is that for whom the poem is being writing is crucial in determining the form and content (indirectly the class) of the poem. And, since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very often must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to write his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, not a craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel. This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet in the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reason, like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or alcoholics or cocaine addicts." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:40:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: "meltdowns, ... gun-shy, ... clashes, ... unease, distrust" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark Prejsnar wrote: > my guess, . . . 2. a checkered history of flame wars and meltdowns make people here gun-shy about issues that might generate ego clashes, and it appears that talking about the thing we share most intensely does just that; ... this second point interests me very much; because i suspect it says something about the feel that the poetry community has right now: one of unease, distrust, and a lack of respect and supportiveness beyong small personal circles.. < Mark, As I back-channeled you, the Buffalo Poetics List meltdown of this past summer had disastrous consequences, nationally, in the distrust and unease I believe you're correct in diagnosing. But, maybe more significantly, that feverish pitch that things had broken past then coicided with 9/11, and a whole other level of paranoias and battle fatigue compounded all the poet-inflicted wounds. . . . Which brings us to the more serious and forboding omission on-List and in our poetries right now: the failure of our movements' modes not only to incorporate incumbent issues of concern such as class anxieties --- a bit of a red herring at the moment --- but the more critical pressures that being at war and recession and anthrax insanity, etc., exerts on us. "Poets are the antennae of the race,"--- in which case at least the heated prose letter-writing dialogue on-List betrays the massive avoidance that the collective psyche is exerting, a virtually schizoid shut-down denial and foreclosure of the most obvious challenge poetry is now facing: war, and whether our mode is elastic enough to in any way confront these devastations. The "denial" is glaring. The burden on poets and artists is doubly difficult, because we feel in some way that our poetry is ~supposed to~ be the channel or voice for the collective consciousness' current damaged vulnerability--- and yet poetic "affect" (emotion) is treated as an embarassing archaicism that's been mocked on this List. More humiliating, too, that poetries which our sophistication (indoctrination, education) considers too risibly unmentionable, such as the "hackneyed," "trite" poem that the 14 year old and 6 year old sons of the Twin Towers casualty read this morning at the six month memorial at "Ground Zero," ~are~ succeeding in consummating the national focus. We're going through something that for us as protected innocents is as rupturing or worse than what our parents and grandparents went through with the two World Wars,--- and that battle fatigue produced Modernism: see Surrealism hatching out of Breton's transcriptions of the doughboys' nerve gas delirium, see Beckett's buffo quadruplegics in baskets and couples in garbage cans as living memory (objective correlative) of the war-amputated, Existentialism, and on and on. The war poetries of the twentieth century have always been completely opaque and shut off to us/me: Paul Eluard, the artilleries glimpsed passingly in Reverdy's cubism, . . . Tellingly, under now discussion now, not the Whitman poet of the battlefield but a Whitman re-written and neutralized into a question of grammar, too. A week or two after 9/11 I was in a NYC basement bar reading, and, of the two readers, one of the List's and community's more illustrious young mavericks was reading punning, play-on-word, asyntactical "approved' poetry, and the other, a more mature and seasoned woman poet, was reading still post-modern but more body-based, aggrieved semi-discursivity, which a poet whispered to me was based on her experience with her child suffering from cancer,--- and the first, School of Buffalo poet sounded unbearably in bad taste, beyond irrelevant, irresponsible, and the latter the grounding of "affect" and hurtable flesh that was so deeply needed. It may take decades for poetry and art to work these repressed traumas out into some form. The predominant obscurantist mode we've inheritted since the '80s does not seem capable of meeting the challenge of so Grand and intolerable a Theme. I just thought your brave candor worth underscoring by pointing out the invisible elephant in the middle of the living room that the dysfunctional family isn't talking about and ~can't~ talk about because our poetic language has had "content" qua content censored out of it. This is what's called a "crisis" of representation (or representability). Personally, I'm looking backwards, to how the Modernist generations worked out these dilemmas of disjunctiveness and body bags. Thanks, Mark. Jeffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 21:52:06 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > i'm struck by how intense the > discussion is, when the list in recent years cannot sustain actual > discussions of poetics (officially, its focus) Yes, the passion of the most vocal on this list is politics, not art. The expression "working-class poet" itself forms a picture of "working-class" (and its various accretions and connotations) driving the vehicle, while "poet(ry)" is consigned to the back seat (if not bound and gagged in the trunk.) ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 03:53:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: working class... i've been following this sporadically...but a couple of points...the reason Poetics talk is such a bore is that it's a 'mystery' and better left there...to be tip toed around...and 'poetics' is such an awful word that it should be stamped out... as someone who has worked for 30 years as a 'street peddler'...not one of your more prestigious jobs...but someone who is not particularly poor...i;ve had children to support...and contrary to the general sway... of this list..i'm not that much of an idiot...these issues always boil down to class...not money.. also as someone who works for himself...and does not hire others...the 'petit bourgeous'....yes the very beast...i like most members of my class 'hate' above all the smug 'acadamecian...civil servant...bureaucrat'....the left that talks but does not work...and talks out of the left side of its mouth to protect its fat a..& mind.. the academic destruction of Po is pretty much complete... what we have is theory and recapitualtion...the basis of po is feeling not lang...the cushioning of the U. & fear factor have nuked PO out..from Naropa to Buffalo to the Ivy Leagues..it's all null and void... my dad started working as an apprentice tailor in Paris in the 30's....he was 13 & slept under the bridges of the Seine...he's still tailoring at 80...retired to a 50 hour a week work week..after a mjor heart attack... working is work...labor...it's not a theory...the sweat there of..and the sun at break of day...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:48:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "WrightZ, Laura" Subject: Hawkins, Minnis read in Boulder March 15 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable T h e L e f t H a n d R e a d i n g S e r i e s p r e s e n t s a r e a d i n g f e a t u r i n g ********************************************* * fiction writer * * B O B B I E L O U I S E H A W K I N S * * * * & * * poet * * C H E L S E Y M I N N I S * * * ********************************************* F r i d a y, M A R C H 1 5 t h, 8 p.m. a t L E F T H A N D B O O K S & R E C O R D S 1 2 0 0 P e a r l S t r e e t # 1 0 B o u l d e r, C o l o r a d o (just east of Broadway, downstairs from street level) The event is open to the public. Donations are requested. =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 BOBBIE LOUISE HAWKINS' books include Almost Everything, The Sanguine = Breast=20 of Margaret and Sensible Plainness. As a performer she has appeared in = one-woman shows, and during the early 1980s toured with Terry = Garthwaite and Rosalie Sorrels performing a combination of jazz, story-telling, and = folk=20 music on the college/coffee house circuit. The San Diego Reader has = written that "her work offers what much contemporary writing leaves its = audience=20 hungering for-- a deep feeling for real human experience, for the = poignant=20 sense of life in the day to day, the quiet heroism of simple people... = Her=20 prose is language operating at its ultimate; an energy and movement, a=20 subtle mounting toward a climax often found only in poetry." Hawkins=20 teaches fiction writing at Naropa University. CHELSEY MINNIS's book of poems Zirconia is the first winner of the = Alberta=20 Prize, an annual book prize contest launched in 2000 by Fence Books in=20 conjunction with the Alberta duPont Bonsal Foundation. The Village = Voice=20 writes of Zirconia, "Minnis's sharp-tongued, sexy, and somewhat = juvenile=20 narrator uses these obsessive, fetishistic examinations to both = describe and insert the reader into a dream state-- a kind of mythic consciousness, in which memory and desire = transform the stuff of everyday life into charged symbols of, well, memory and=20 desire." Chelsey Minnis is a native and resident of Littleton, = Colorado and a graduate of the Iowa Writers Workshop. =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 There will be a short OPEN READING immediately before the featured=20 readings. Sign up for the Open Reading will take place promptly at = 8:00=20 p.m. =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 The LEFT HAND READING SERIES is an independent series presenting = readings of original literary works by emerging and established writers. Founded = in=20 1996, the series is now curated by poets MARK DuCHARME and LAURA = WRIGHT. =20 Readings in the series are presented monthly. Upcoming events in the = series include: FRIDAY, APRIL 19th: BARBARA HENNING & MICHAEL FRIEDMAN. For more information about the Left Hand Reading Series, call (303) = 938-9346 or (303) 443-3685. =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0= =B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0=B0 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:36:28 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Laura Driussi Subject: NEW BOOK: Transpacific Displacement Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear : The University of California Press is pleased to announce the publication of= : Transpacific Displacement: Ethnography, Translation, and Intertextual Travel= in Twentieth-Century American Literature by Yunte Huang, Assistant Professor of English and American Literature and= Language at Harvard University, author of Shi: A Radical Reading of= Chinese Poetry and the translator into Chinese of Ezra Pound's Canto= s. "Yunte Huang has produced a fascinating study of what he calls 'textual= travelling,' which is to say, the transformation of poetic texts (in this= case Chinese ones) at the hands of American scholars, editors, translators,= and especially poets=8A. This brave and highly original study is sure to= raise controversy."-Marjorie Perloff, author of Wittgenstein's Ladder Yunte Huang takes a most original "ethnographic" approach to more and less= well-known American texts as he traces what he calls the transpacific= displacement of cultural meanings through twentieth-century America's= imaging of Asia. Authors covered include Ezra Pound, Amy Lowell, and= Maxine Hong Kingston. =46ull information about the book, including the table of contents, is= available at the following web address: http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/= 9384.html -- Laura Driussi, Digital Rights and Electronic Marketing Manager University of California Press, 2120 Berkeley Way, Berkeley, CA 94720 NEW SHORTER EMAIL: laura.driussi@ucpress.edu 510-643-1036, fax 510-643-7127 Sign up for our subject-specific California eNews announcements and register= to win a free book: http://www.ucpress.edu/books/emailsignup.html ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 12:42:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Al Filreis Subject: John Ashbery live via webcast Comments: To: writershouse@dept.english.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Please join us by live interactive webcast with John Ashbery at the Writers House on the morning of Tuesday, March 26. More details below. Al Filreis The Class of 1942 Professor of English Faculty Director, the Kelly Writers House University of Pennsylvania << www.english.upenn.edu/~afilreis >> the Kelly Writers House Fellows program presents JOHN ASHBERY - via live webcast - 10:30 AM Tuesday, March 26 a conversation with John Ashbery eastern time conducted by Al Filreis To participate via webcast, you must rsvp to: << whfellow@english.upenn.edu >>. Anyone with a computer and an internet connection can participate. Participants in the webcast will be able to interact with John Ashbery by email or telephone. For more information about the Kelly Writers House webcast series, see http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ Those who rsvp will receive further instructions. Kelly Writers House 3805 Locust Walk University of Pennsylvania 215 573-WRIT www.english.upenn.edu/~wh ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Kelly Writers House Fellows, 2002 novelist MICHAEL CUNNINGHAM February 11-12 poet JOHN ASHBERY March 25-26 playwright CHARLES FULLER April 15-16 Generous support for Writers House Fellows comes from Paul Kelly. Charles Fuller's visit is co-sponsored by Art Sanctuary and Temple University. previous Writers House Fellows: June Jordan 2001 David Sedaris Tony Kushner Grace Paley 2000 Robert Creeley John Edgar Wideman Gay Talese 1999 recordings of live webcasts featuring the Fellows can be found here: http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/webcasts/ "When one goes at ideas directly, with hammer and tongs as it were, ideas tend to elude one in a poem. I think they only come back in when one pretends not to be paying any attention to them, like a cat that will rub against your leg." -John Ashbery Born in Rochester, New York, in 1927, John Ashbery is the author of over twenty books of poetry. In 1984, his book A Wave won the Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize. For Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror 1975), he received the Pulitzer Prize for Poetry, the National Book Critics Circle Award, and the National Book Award. Some Trees (1956) was selected by W. H. Auden for the Yale Younger Poets Series. He has received a long-list of other rewards, including the Wallace Stevens Award, the Bollingen Prize, the English Speaking Union Prize, the Feltrinelli Prize, the Ruth Lilly Poetry Prize, the Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize, two Ingram Merrill Foundation grants, the MLA Common Wealth Award in Literature, the Harriet Monroe Memorial Prize, the Frank O'Hara Prize, the Shelley Memorial Award, and fellowships from The Academy of American Poets, the Fulbright Foundation, the Guggenheim Foundation, and the MacArthur Foundation. He is also a former Chancellor of The Academy of American Poets. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 10:10:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christine Palma Subject: The Big Picture at Beyond Baroque - April 7th - Sunday Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The Big Picture at Beyond Baroque - April 7th - Sunday The website for this is done and is now up at: http://beyondbaroque.org/bigpicture/index.html and has more details about this event. There is a good essay by Bill Mohr in the ABOUT section about the history of SoCal poetry. If you are a Southern California-based poet that has a book, a chapbook or some published material, I hope you can come to this, participate, and can contribute your work. We are going to have a professional group photo taken of SoCal poets. It will also be a drive for collecting work for the Beyond Baroque Archive, and it will be a pot luck! and it will also be an art opening -- all wraped into one fun afternoon! Please help get the word out! :-) Christine Palma ***** Here is the official press release: January 25th, 2002 For Immediate Release Contact Info: Amelie Frank (866) 510-6561 x5320 (voice mail) (818) 780-1912 (fax) poetamelie@onebox.com http://www.beyondbaroque.org/bigpicture/index.html WHAT: Beyond Baroque Hosts THE BIG PICTURE: A Convocation Of Southern California Poets WHEN: Sunday, April 7th, 2002 at 2:00 p.m. WHERE: BEYOND BAROQUE LITERARY ARTS CENTER 681 Venice Blvd., Venice, CA (310) 822-3006 ADMISSION: Free of charge! On Sunday, April 7th, 2002, at 3:00 p.m., Beyond Baroque will host The Big Picture, a convocation of published Southern California poets to be photographed for National Poetry Month. Southern California is a region of diverse populations, each with a unique voice. For this event, we are bringing all these voices together--the voices of our literary poets, our performance poets, our beat poets, avant-garde poets, academic poets, hip-hop poets, environmental poets, political poets, cowboy poets, and others. Often regions are not aware of their cultural heritage. This is our change to preserve these poets for posterity. The event will take place at Beyond Barque, the non-profit foundation that is the literary heart of Los Angeles. Founded in 1968 in a storefront in Venice, the center has been the site of readings from such literary giants and local icons as Allen Ginsberg, Philip Levine, David St. John, Kate Braverman, Lewis MacAdams, Bob Flanagan, Charles Bukowski, Wanda Coleman, Dennis Cooper, and many more. Many of SoCal's most beloved poets have been alumnae of Beyond Baroque's longstanding workshops. The event is being documented by Mark Savage, who is completed a five-year project individually photographing the poets of Los Angeles. Called one of the "finest up-and-coming portrait photographers in North America" by American Photography, Savage's work has appeared in the Los Angeles Times, MONEY, Fortune, and other publications. After the group photo, all poets will be invited to visit his project, "Souls and Passions," on display at the Beyond Baroque gallery. In addition, participating poets will be donating copies of their publications to the Beyond Baroque Archive, the largest independent collection of Southern California poetry and ephemera on the West Coast. ____________________________________ Christine Palma "Echo in the Sense" - Poetry, Prose, Performance - Cultural and Public Affairs Programming KXLU Los Angeles - 88.9 FM Saturday Evenings from 8 to 9 PM E-mail: Christine@DROMO.com Tel: (714) 979-3414 "Take a step into the sublime. . ." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:54:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: michael Subject: BIG BRIDGE ANNOUNCEMENT WITH CORRECTED SPELLIINGS(SORRY) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable BIG BRIDGE is pleased to = announce =20 VOLUME 2 , ISSUE 3 =20 FEATURE CHAPBOOK:=20 HUNGRY TILL I LEARNED THE WORD FOR CORN by Renee Gregorio=20 with Illustrations by Nancy Victoria Davis =20 POETRY:=20 Lewis Warsh, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, Jack Collom, Aaron Couch, Gwynne Garfinkle, Drew Gardner,=20 Claudia Grinnel (w/art), David Highsmith, Billy Little, Rick London, Judith Malina, Markk, Duncan McNaughton, Nicole Mauro, Frank Parker, Michael Price, Susan Terris, Lorenzo Thomas,=20 Michael Rothenberg Philip Shiemann, Mark Prejsnar, William Minor (w/art), Lewis LaCook =20 FICTION/NON-FICTION Review of Joanne Kyger's AGAIN by Miriam Sagan Review of Joanne Kyger's STRANGE BIG MOON by Linda Russo Review of Bill Berkson's FUGUE STATE by Adam DeGraff=20 Review of Jack Collom's Red Car Goes By Review of Mike Topp's I Used to Be Ashamed of My Striped Face =20 A Dirty Bird in a Square Time: Whalen's Poetry by Bruce Holsapple Poetics of Prayer by Louise Landes Levi Keith Abbott's: Jim in Bolinas, A Memoir of Jim Gustafson Interview with Jean Baudrillard in Paris by Nina Zivancevic Ward Kelly's new novel DIVINE MURDER(excerpts)=20 =20 LITTLE MAGS:=20 Fish Drum Goodie Blue Book (is back!!!) =20 ART:=20 Glyph Poems by John Brandi Brush and Ink by Robert Brown=20 The Art of Claudio Parentela =20 MUSIC: "shuffle boil - a magazine of poets and music" edited by David = Meltzer & Steve Dickison from The Music Space by Daniel Moore =20 Guns 'n Roses Concert, Hershey Park, 1991 by Daniel Nester IRA COHEN:=20 "My Dad" by Lakshmi Cohen w/ photos of Ira's apartment by Michael Rothenberg=20 =20 SEPTEMBER 11, 2001-THE LANGUAGE OF WAR AND PEACE Bill Berkson, Joanne Kyger, Josephine Clare, Jack Collom, Dick Gallup, = Anne Waldman, Michael McClure, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Duncan McNaughton, Tom Clark, Hammond Guthrie, Mike Topp, David Meltzer, Steve Allen May, Sarah Menefee, Zoketsu Norman Fischer, Ira Cohen, Gabor Gyukics, Daniel Moore, Ammiel Alcalay, Steve Ben Israel, Jonh Brandi, Jennifer Birkett, Hanon Reznikoff, Stefan Hyner, Mary Sands, Michael Castro, Rick London, = Roxanne Poormon Gupta, William Slaughter, Renee Gregorio, RhondaK, Andrew = Shelley, Miriam Sagan, Andrew Schelling, Michael Rothenberg, Louise Landes Levi. =20 GOOFBOOK by Philip Whalen (NEW) Big Bridge Press announces publication of Philip Whalen's GOOFBOOK for = Jack Kerouac. Written in 1961, Whalen says, GOOFBOOK is: "A book for Jack, = saying whatever I want to say..." Edited by Michael Rothenberg. Cover photo: = Philip Whalen and Jack Kerouac by Walter Lehrman. Paperback. 34pp. Order from: Big Bridge Press, 2000 Highway 1, Pacifica, CA 94044, Checks payable to Big Bridge Press-- 11 dollars plus 4.00 postage. ISBN: 1-878471-07-4. See you there (IF YOU FIND ANYMORE TYPOGRAPHICAL ERRORS LET ME KNOW!) Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge http://www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 17:56:26 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT the problem with a 'working class' anthology is that the poetry would likely be drived from media stereotypes as that's what learned is of value. I just did some time at the county work center and we fought over whther to watch WWF or Jerry Springer! tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Bianchi" To: Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 6:01 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > I think that this discussion of a working class poetics has merit. The > problem is who is having the discussion on a working class poetics; > academics. I worked in Latin America for 8 years first in Bolivia and then > in Brazil. I worked for an NGO working with inmates in prision. > The people that I worked with were truly working class, that means that they > had no savings, working with their bodies for a living doing hard, dirty > jobs and they were caught int a cycle of employment violence that lead them > to dispair but also to push for real social change. I am genuinely > interested in what these folks have to say poetically. The problem is that > I do not share their lives and most > writers of poetry and fiction today do not share these lives either. these > people have no voice and I cannot create one for them because I do not share > their struggles. > > Even a poet who is radical like Amiri Baraka is more in the Middle Class > because of the fact that they do not live in that type of world. The > problem is that we objectivfy what should be a subject, people who work > hard. I would challenge people to think about this when talking about a > poetic of work. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richard.tylr" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:51 AM > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg one > > would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically > "charged" > > or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the > continuing > > military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may > > also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some > > aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA (perceived > > "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim to > > have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the > > heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say > some > > John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means > > they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the > > working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be > > Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all > his > > work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays of > > course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving at" > > but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, > poetry > > etc. Regards, Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray Bianchi" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working > class > > > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and > > > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are > > > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they > > are. > > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not > the > > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > > > RB > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "michael amberwind" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > > > > > What you said about working people often having > > > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > > > others. > > > > > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > > > high school I had what would probably now be > > > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > > > boredom. > > > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > > > in. > > > > > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > > > This is a University town. People who go to > > > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > > > - > > > > would get you through the night. > > > > > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > > > From: Millie Niss > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > > > but working class is > > > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > > > father's house > > > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > > > problmes dealt with > > > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > > > are professionals (though > > > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > > > financial situations) & I > > > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > > > and was trying to get > > > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > > > projects, so we had something > > > > > in common... > > > > > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > > > like the problems of the > > > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > > > often at decent union rates. > > > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > > > was still below the poverty > > > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > > > When you are working, you > > > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > > > went away, but that's because > > > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > > > did not mean moving back into > > > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > > > little income now, but like many > > > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > > > and am talking about are > > > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > > > day, but you have to carry > > > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > > > to read poetry, but you > > > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > > > sleep because the room held > > > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > > > library but you have taught > > > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > > > the book at the right distance > > > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > > > have to quit the job or get > > > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > > > appointments. > > > > > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > > > agency... > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > > > poetry, the way working class > > > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > > > only because that's what's > > > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > > > again if they didn't have to > > > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > > > medical care or enough money for > > > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > > > experiences make good poetry > > > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > > > not myself usually that taken > > > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > > > situation who would stop and > > > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > > > camille roy > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > > > mainstream not because you > > > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > > > white american poets but > > > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > > > very queer spoken word > > > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > > > interest in theory. > > > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > > > experience is suspicious > > > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > > > a woman I actually > > > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > > > have been putting together > > > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > > > This is one hell of rich > > > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > > > follow the paradigm of > > > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > > > consciousness about the > > > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > > > lives. The white (american) > > > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > > > persuasive and transformative > > > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 16:54:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aldon Nielsen Subject: Shepp, Baraka, Rudd etc. Comments: cc: Kalamu@aol.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed A Free Jazz Weekend at Penn State and guess what, it's free: April 5-6 University Park Campus Friday, April 5 8:00 PM, Schwab Auditorium Concert/reading with Archie Shepp, Amiri Baraka, Roswell Rudd, Andrew Cyrille and Reggie Workman Saturday April 6 1:30-5:00 PM Foster Auditorium Free Jazz and its Legacies: A Symposium on Black Music and American Culture for more info email: wjh8@psu.edu or phy1@psu.edu <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "You made a mistake. You did something wrong. Now make another mistake, and do something right." --Sun Ra Aldon Lynn Nielsen George and Barbara Kelly Professor of American Literature Department of English The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:52:33 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a goodbye to all that: not so grave.. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit To join obliquely in the debate on this re holocausts and apocolyptics and things - the point must be made that Allen (or part of Allen eg maybe his "subconscious") feels this way as we all do somewhat sometimes: eg even more so the day after the night before! But 1) Alan's (your work Alan?) work is part of a larger enterprise of a complex project that seems to include this sort of "raw stuff" with "technical" sections and so on and repetition is an obvious and often a good device. But looking at the recent posts from Alan there seems to be more of an almost neo-romantic-confessionalist despair (were the Cons ever really indespair: probably but...) I was just thinking: sure the world is "in peril" so to speak but then so far as we know that is always the case. We are all "inperil"every minute (especially in Auckland traffic its crazy over here)... In a sense we are all dying: so a more valid response might be to say this in MY struggle: turn Hitler on his head: a positive reaction...the acceptance that life is a struggle. Not passive acceptance of suffering though. That said, I know how some people can and or are thinking (often very negatively) re the international and national and all the way to their personal situations. But apart from our existential lot and the option of stoicism versus the pessimistic views (of which I have been a dabbler somewaht myself at times) and the chance of everything blowing to fuck and the torment and the human puniness sub specie aeternitatis ... on bright days there are still flowers and hamburgers and young men and women and children and song and light and sunsets and so on without getting too carried away .. we cant have that! Juat another take... I dont think our century is any better than any other but probably its no worse than any previous (although we do "boast" some pretty horrible wars and other events): sure Israel-Palestine and we havent run out of wars but there are still a lot of people living well (despite the suffering as well) and so on. As well as that I'm to be a grandfather in about a month: so should I encourage this sort of thing?! But seriously, I'm looking foreward to that and have hope by and large (God (or X) forfend I become a "humanist" per se however) to an exciting human future. Some thoughts on the question... Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 5:36 PM Subject: a goodbye to all that > - > > a goodbye to all that > > a terrible politics of response/attack, > and goodbye to everywhere, nikuko-azure, > and my hair is covered in your blood, my cum, > and my lips glisten with our dying children, > and nothing weathers, nothing soaks, > and our fucking, wars of innocent nations, > and that light before the onslaught, > and that onslaught before the final light, > and you wear your children in your hair, > and blasted cones of light, virga, distraught impotence, > and bloody clots, semen dribbling in my eyes - > bringing to bear that nothing will be ever born, > and desperate desiccation, > distraught dna ... > hello to everyone, azure-nikuko - > and her period, my cum, my mouth - > i'm wet with our dismembered and > inevitable deaths in every world. > look, blood drying everywhere around us, > menses, > and my teeth glisten with our children - > pink flux in hole > and red-pink flux on rod > and semen ... > vagaries of belief in atomic light - > we are the desert of organ organelles. > > > _ > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:27:41 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: fatal MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - fatal 19 less fi 20 less fil k22% rev fil > lif k23% awk -f lif fil > zz awk: lif:1: } "0" tnirp { /+]0[/ awk: lif:1: ^ syntax error awk: lif:1: fatal: Unmatched [ or [^: /+]0[/ k24% sed 's/tnirp/print/g' lif > li; mv li lif you have mail in /net/u/6/s/sondheim/.mailspool/sondheim k25% awk -f lif fil > zz awk: lif:1: } "0" print { /+]0[/ awk: lif:1: ^ syntax error awk: lif:1: fatal: Unmatched [ or [^: /+]0[/ k26% wc zz 0 0 0 zz k27% awk -f fi fil > zz k28% wc zz 1113 5429 28336 zz k29% awk -f zz fil > yy awk: zz:3: he's awk: zz:3: ^ Invalid char ''' in expression she pulled and bit his with her she bit his until they bled she pulled the ropes so tight they cut his or she all over his and she pulled and bit his with her she bit his until they bled she pulled the ropes so tight they cut his or she all over his and her were spread so wide everyone could see her or she bit his until they bled they went at it 19 less fi 20 less fil 21 h 22 rev fil > lif 23 awk -f lif fil > zz 24 sed 's/tnirp/print/g' lif > li; mv li lif 25 awk -f lif fil > zz 26 wc zz 27 awk -f fi fil > zz 28 wc zz 29 awk -f zz fil > yy 30 rm zz; pico zz k32% awk -f fill zz > yy k33% wc yy 188 1116 5599 yy k34% cat yy >> zz _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 08:00:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joshua B McKinney Subject: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The following readings are scheduled in conjunction with the CSU - Sacaramento 10th annual Festival of the Arts, April 4-14, 2002: April 8 - Josh McKinney & Doug Rice, 3:00-4:00 p.m. April 9 - Dennis Schmitz, 7:30 p.m. April 10 - CSUS alumni Randy White, Heather Hutcheson, and Tricia Ireland, 7:30 p.m. April 12 - D.A. Powell, 7:30 p.m. (reception and signing follows) April 13 - Jorie Graham, 7:30 p.m. (reception and signing follows) All readings will take place in Hinde Auditorium of the CSUS University Union on the CSUS campus. All readings are FREE and open to the public. For more information contact Joshua McKinney at (916) 278-6925 or jmckinney@csus.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 00:07:24 -0800 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: No subject was specified. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Wanted to let you know I have two new readings coming up in San Francisco (my first readings here aside from something I did at Paradise Lounge in 1991!) 1. Saturday, March 16, 2002, 730PM with Stephen Rodefer at Unitarian Center (corner of Franklin and Geary) 2. Friday, April 5, 2002, 730 PM with Beth Lisick at Escape From New York Pizza (on Bush at Montgomery) (donation to Underground Railroad also gets you free pizza, salad...) Maybe see you there, Chris ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:36:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lori Emerson Subject: Re: Digital Poetics/new EPC author page MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello, (digital-)poetics-minded people might find it useful to look at Roberto Simanowski's new EPC author page: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/simanowski/ Roberto Simanowski edits the highly influential German digital journal Dichtung Digital, a review of digital aesthetics. A specialist on 18th century German literature, literary salons, and digital literature, he is the author of several books including Digitale Literatur (Text & Kritik) and the forthcoming Interfictions: Vom Schreiben im Netz (Suhrkamp). and Literatur.digital 2001: Ein neuer Wettbewerb für eine neue Literatur? (DTV). Best, Lori ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:56:45 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Maxwell Subject: Jacques Roubaud & Stephen Rodefer @ Dawsons, Friday night, 7:30 p m! Comments: To: "Stephen Rodefer (E-mail)" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Otis Graduate Writers Program joins the Germ & Poetic Research Bureau = in welcoming Jacques Roubaud and Stephen Rodefer to Dawsons Book Shop, Friday at 7:30 pm! *** Hell, those of you busy pups that missed Ange and Sarah last Sunday = missed plenty indeed, but anyone who'd pass on Friday is clearly clucked and picking feathers from a molted rump...and you remember what happens to finches when Alain Delon leaves the room! ZAP!=20 Well we've left Alain dodging les flics in the metro and brought the Parisians home to you, lazy susans. Samoura=EFs indeed, but more = Villons than villains, these. Master swingers, there are none quicker: Rodefer and Roubaud zip from pun to punch, from paradox to elegy in a Newfoundland nanosec. They put the pottymouth in polymath and sell Polly for a song, which is the sweetest exchange expected for a piebald mime in the small bright lobby of the world. These are at least two of that world's = brilliant corners. Bring yours along and we'll call it Ours, a gallant collectiv pooh-pooh to Tommy Ridge's Code Yellow. Hey, I am curious too, ain't = you? Oulipo Rex and Ubu Raw brought to you by Otis Grad Writers, merci! *** March 15, Friday 7:30pm Jacques Roubaud is a French poet and mathematician born in 1932. After teaching Mathematics at the University of Paris X Nanterre beginning in 1970, Roubaud started publishing numerous books of poetry and prose. He = has published in all genres: prose, theater and poetry. He is one of the = most accomplished members of Oulipo, the workshop for experimental = literature. He is also the president of the Association Georges Perec. He has = translated Lewis Caroll's Hunting of the Snark and contemporary American poetry = into French. Most of his translated works are published by Dalkey Archive, including The Plurality of Worlds of Lewis, Hortense in Exile, Hortense = is Abducted, Some Thing Black and The Great Fire of London. Stephen Rodefer is the author of several collections of poetry, = including Mon Canard (2000), Left Under a Cloud (1999), Answer to Doctor Agathon (1995), Erasers (1994), Leaving (1992), Emergency Measures (1987), and = Four Lectures (1977). Rodefer recently returned to the United States = following three years teaching in Paris and two at Cambridge. He continues to = split time between NYC and Paris. A former student of Charles Olson, he is = sans doute the most musical of those writers associated with the LANGUAGE = School. He has taught at San Francisco State University, University of New Mexico-Albuquerque, and others. *** Dawson' Book Shop is located at 535 N. Larchmont Blvd between Beverly = Blvd and Melrose Blvd. Hancock Park, but it's Hollywood, more or less. Tel: 213-469-2186 Readings are open to all. All Friday Otis/Germ events are FREE to the public. Call Andrew at 310.446.8162 x233 for more info. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:33:31 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality) In-Reply-To: <007401c1ca21$862fdde0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > I just > did some time at the county work center and we fought over whther to watch > WWF or Jerry Springer! WWF!!! hands down. You people are so funny -- is there a convention or something for this list? Do we all get together at some point? -Aaron p.s. really, is there? ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:41:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: POG: poet Benjamin Hollander, visual artist Gwyneth Scally, this Saturday 7:30 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit POG PRESENTS poet Benjamin Hollander visual artist Gwyneth Scally Saturday, March 16, 7:30 pm (note the atypical start time) ALAMO GALLERY in the Steinfeld Warehouse Building (home of Chax Press) 101 W. Sixth Street SW corner of Sixth St. & 9th Ave. (entry at the corner of Sixth St. & 9th Ave., at the NE corner of the building; for those of you familiar with Chax Press, this entry is on the opposite side of the building from the entry to Chax. If you have questions about location, call Chax at 620-1626, but please call during the week, before 4pm. Admission: $5; Students $3 Benjamin Hollander was born in Israel and emigrated to New York City in 1958, at the age of six. He has lived in San Francisco since 1978. His books include The Book Of Who Are Was (Sun & Moon, 1997), How to Read, too (Leech Books, 1992), and Translating Tradition: Paul Celan in France (editor, ACTS, 1988). Hollander's poetry and prose have appeared in a variety of journals, including Sulfur, Sagetrieb, Hambone, Five Fingers Review, Boxkite, and Raddle Moon. In 1993, he visited the Fondation Royaumont in Paris, where selections of his poetry were collectively translated into French and appeared as Le Livre De Qui Sont Etait (Creaphis, 1997). His work has also been published in translation in several anthologies of French poetry, including Tout Le Mond Se Ressemble: Une Anthologie de Poesie Contemporaine, edited by Emmanuel Hocquard. Hollander served as an associate editor of David Levi Strauss' Acts: A Journal of New Writing throughout the 1980's. In the past, he has directed The Floating Center for Poetry and Translation, a forum for writers, translators and scholars engaging in collective translations of contemporary foreign poets. He currently teaches critical thinking, writing, and other courses at Chabot Community College in Hayward, California. Gwyneth Scally was born and raised in Washington, D.C. Her work is deeply informed by early immersion in the worlds of politics and journalism; the malleable natures of truth and information are important themes in her paintings, as are the underlying psychological forces that shape the public worlds of mass culture and social systems. After receiving degrees in both art and literature, Scally moved to Arizona. She paints in the Historic Warehouse District of Tucson, interspersing her work with trips to Latin America, Europe, and New York. Scally notes that the Southwest offers a pace of life crucial to the creative process, as well as a grand physical expanse of land and sky that challenges the artist to match its scale in vision. POG events are sponsored in part by grants from the Tucson/Pima Arts Council, the Arizona Commission on the Arts, and the National Endowment for the Humanities. POG also benefits from the continuing support of The University of Arizona Poetry Center, the Arizona Quarterly, Chax Press, and The University of Arizona Department of English . We also thank the following POG donors: Patrons Austin Publicover and Mark & Gail Seldess; Sponsors Sam Ace, Charles Alexander, Alison Deming, Maggie Golston, Mary Rising Higgins, Elizabeth Landry, Allison Moore, Sheila Murphy, Heather Nagami & Tim Peterson, Tenney Nathanson, Stacey Richter, Jesse Seldess, and Frances Sjoberg. for further information contact POG: 296-6416; mailto:pog@gopog.org or visit us on the web at www.gopog.org mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:53:30 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Whatever happened to Daryl Hine? -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:08:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Re: "meltdowns, ... gun-shy, ... clashes, ... unease, distrust" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit It does seem to come down to this: What works works, what doesn't doesn't. And what works now is the elegiac, with its range of rage for emptiness(s), for all those blank faces at the edge of the void. Gerald ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Jullich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:40 AM Subject: "meltdowns, ... gun-shy, ... clashes, ... unease, distrust" > Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > > my guess, . . . 2. a checkered history of flame > wars and meltdowns make people here gun-shy about > issues that might generate ego clashes, and it > appears that talking about the thing we share most > intensely does just that; ... this second point > interests > me very much; because i suspect it says something > about the feel that the poetry community has right > now: one of unease, distrust, and a lack of respect > and supportiveness beyong small personal circles.. < > > > Mark, > > As I back-channeled you, the Buffalo Poetics List > meltdown of this past summer had disastrous > consequences, nationally, in the distrust and unease I > believe you're correct in diagnosing. > > But, maybe more significantly, that feverish pitch > that things had broken past then coicided with > > 9/11, > > and a whole other level of paranoias and battle > fatigue compounded all the poet-inflicted wounds. > > . . . Which brings us to the more serious and > forboding omission on-List and in our poetries right > now: > > the failure of our movements' modes not only to > incorporate incumbent issues of concern such as class > anxieties --- a bit of a red herring at the moment --- > but the more critical pressures that being at war and > recession and anthrax insanity, etc., exerts on us. > > "Poets are the antennae of the race,"--- in which case > at least the heated prose letter-writing dialogue > on-List betrays the massive avoidance that the > collective psyche is exerting, a virtually schizoid > shut-down denial and foreclosure of the most obvious > challenge poetry is now facing: war, and whether our > mode is elastic enough to in any way confront these > devastations. > > The "denial" is glaring. > > The burden on poets and artists is doubly difficult, > because we feel in some way that our poetry is > ~supposed to~ be the channel or voice for the > collective consciousness' current damaged > vulnerability--- and yet poetic "affect" (emotion) is > treated as an embarassing archaicism that's been > mocked on this List. > > More humiliating, too, that poetries which our > sophistication (indoctrination, education) considers > too risibly unmentionable, such as the "hackneyed," > "trite" poem that the 14 year old and 6 year old sons > of the Twin Towers casualty read this morning at the > six month memorial at "Ground Zero," ~are~ succeeding > in consummating the national focus. > > We're going through something that for us as protected > innocents is as rupturing or worse than what our > parents and grandparents went through with the two > World Wars,--- and that battle fatigue produced > Modernism: see Surrealism hatching out of Breton's > transcriptions of the doughboys' nerve gas delirium, > see Beckett's buffo quadruplegics in baskets and > couples in garbage cans as living memory (objective > correlative) of the war-amputated, Existentialism, and > on and on. The war poetries of the twentieth century > have always been completely opaque and shut off to > us/me: Paul Eluard, the artilleries glimpsed passingly > in Reverdy's cubism, . . . Tellingly, under now > discussion now, not the Whitman poet of the > battlefield but a Whitman re-written and neutralized > into a question of grammar, too. > > A week or two after 9/11 I was in a NYC basement bar > reading, and, of the two readers, one of the List's > and community's more illustrious young mavericks was > reading punning, play-on-word, asyntactical "approved' > poetry, and the other, a more mature and seasoned > woman poet, was reading still post-modern but more > body-based, aggrieved semi-discursivity, which a poet > whispered to me was based on her experience with her > child suffering from cancer,--- and the first, School > of Buffalo poet sounded unbearably in bad taste, > beyond irrelevant, irresponsible, and the latter the > grounding of "affect" and hurtable flesh that was so > deeply needed. > > It may take decades for poetry and art to work these > repressed traumas out into some form. The predominant > obscurantist mode we've inheritted since the '80s does > not seem capable of meeting the challenge of so Grand > and intolerable a Theme. > > I just thought your brave candor worth underscoring by > pointing out the invisible elephant in the middle of > the living room that the dysfunctional family isn't > talking about and ~can't~ talk about because our > poetic language has had "content" qua content censored > out of it. > > This is what's called a "crisis" of representation (or > representability). > > Personally, I'm looking backwards, to how the > Modernist generations worked out these dilemmas of > disjunctiveness and body bags. > > Thanks, Mark. > > Jeffrey > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:00:09 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There always those who attack "academic" institutions: look I'm 54 in New Zealand...I wish that I had gone to Columbia University (like Zukofsky) and done the "traditional" courses and I especially (if I ever got the cash would spend it - not on a trip to Africa or "lovely places" well like parts of my own country (such as Queenstown were the FBI just had conference (it was probably a week of heavy boozing and interfucking)): I'd sign up and "do a David Denby - who wrote about his experience on the "great Books" course ok I'd be there the same as him but I'd love to get the grounding in all those works and I'd go on to as many aspects of lit (trying to avoid some of the ground I'd covered in Auck Uni during the 90s) eg I have really studied Olson or Pound or Zukofsky but there are many other writers throughought the world (including non-Western or "obscure" places): or even there are huge areas of even European lit that is unknown to me....and so on: but I would also have loved to have been in an MFA program: there is no reason a student in one of those courses has to "swallow everything" (the ones that moan about Art schools and the trammelling of their minds one often suspects simply were or are too lazy: after all I doubt anywhere nowadays wants people to "conform"...or if they do (I agree many might -contradiction I know - then the student can use the course as a "leaping off" place - and I dont mean down! I mean - hope fully - up!) But not every one is going to be "great" and so on .. I'd also have loved to have been to the Naropa or The Black Mountain .... I think even now I'd choose something like that: I (at my age I'm more confident than I was as a 19, 20 year old ...I was very quiet then, used to not speak to people almost at all....) would nowdays argue the toss - or quietly make my own way after the course or both: I dont thnk accos mind some disagreement ..its a sign of real interest and enthusiasm: HOWEVER its also true that someone who has or will never attend Columbia or Oxford or any University and drives a truck or whatever could be our next Shakespeare...or whatever. So that's my take: the MFA would do no harm...for some people it would be "the making of them" as they say...and so on: that's my "take" on things for now. By the way: as there are so many poetry reading announcements: I'll make a proleptic announcement: Richard Taylor would have givegave a poetry reading/performance (sans chairs) yesterday and it (would have or did) go very well especially for his devotees who are numerous..interestingly though, in view of the above, but not in bitter bitternessy, none of them are academics as far as I know,...well....but it wouldwas at the "Departure Lounge" on K'Road, Auckland,New Zealand (not far from Neville's record shop and by the Vallencia)...that's proleptical. In the performance his/he would have read The Red and it did or had went very wondrous strange... Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duration Press" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 4:57 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not > the > > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > > > RB > > tho i guess one would have to be assuming that all mfa students did not grow > up the children of carpenters or steel workers... > > i happen to be in the mfa program at brown...happen also to be the son of a > former ship-builder, now construction worker...grown up at the edge of a > barrio, less than two miles from tijuana...did the gang thing for a > while...did the graffiti thing as well... > > tho i guess "it's not where you're from, but where you're at" (pulling out > my obscure quote book from mid-80's rap music) > > > Jerrold Shiroma, director > duration press > www.durationpress.com > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ray Bianchi" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:01 PM > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > I think that this discussion of a working class poetics has merit. The > > problem is who is having the discussion on a working class poetics; > > academics. I worked in Latin America for 8 years first in Bolivia and > then > > in Brazil. I worked for an NGO working with inmates in prision. > > The people that I worked with were truly working class, that means that > they > > had no savings, working with their bodies for a living doing hard, dirty > > jobs and they were caught int a cycle of employment violence that lead > them > > to dispair but also to push for real social change. I am genuinely > > interested in what these folks have to say poetically. The problem is > that > > I do not share their lives and most > > writers of poetry and fiction today do not share these lives either. these > > people have no voice and I cannot create one for them because I do not > share > > their struggles. > > > > Even a poet who is radical like Amiri Baraka is more in the Middle Class > > because of the fact that they do not live in that type of world. The > > problem is that we objectivfy what should be a subject, people who work > > hard. I would challenge people to think about this when talking about a > > poetic of work. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "richard.tylr" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:51 AM > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg > one > > > would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically > > "charged" > > > or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the > > continuing > > > military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may > > > also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some > > > aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA > (perceived > > > "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim > to > > > have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the > > > heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say > > some > > > John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means > > > they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the > > > working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be > > > Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all > > his > > > work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays > of > > > course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving > at" > > > but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, > > poetry > > > etc. Regards, Richard. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ray Bianchi" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > > > > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working > > class > > > > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants > and > > > > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who > are > > > > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what > they > > > are. > > > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are > some > > > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not > > the > > > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > > > > > RB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "michael amberwind" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & > nationality > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > > > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > > > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > > > > > > > What you said about working people often having > > > > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > > > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > > > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > > > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > > > > high school I had what would probably now be > > > > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > > > > boredom. > > > > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > > > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > > > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > > > > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > > > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > > > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > > > > in. > > > > > > > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > > > > This is a University town. People who go to > > > > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > > > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > > > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > > > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > > > > - > > > > > would get you through the night. > > > > > > > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > > > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > > > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > > > > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > > > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > > > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > > > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > > > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > > > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > > > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > > > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > > > > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > > > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > > > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > > > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > > > > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > > > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > > > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > > > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > > > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > > > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > > > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > > > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > > > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > > > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > > > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > > > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > > > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > > > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > > > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > > > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > > > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > > > > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > > > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > > > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > > > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > > > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > > > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > > > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > > > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > > > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > > > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > > > > From: Millie Niss > > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > > > > but working class is > > > > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > > > > father's house > > > > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > > > > problmes dealt with > > > > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > > > > are professionals (though > > > > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > > > > financial situations) & I > > > > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > > > > and was trying to get > > > > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > > > > projects, so we had something > > > > > > in common... > > > > > > > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > > > > like the problems of the > > > > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > > > > often at decent union rates. > > > > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > > > > was still below the poverty > > > > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > > > > When you are working, you > > > > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > > > > went away, but that's because > > > > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > > > > did not mean moving back into > > > > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > > > > little income now, but like many > > > > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > > > > and am talking about are > > > > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > > > > day, but you have to carry > > > > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > > > > to read poetry, but you > > > > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > > > > sleep because the room held > > > > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > > > > library but you have taught > > > > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > > > > the book at the right distance > > > > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > > > > have to quit the job or get > > > > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > > > > appointments. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > > > > agency... > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > > > > poetry, the way working class > > > > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > > > > only because that's what's > > > > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > > > > again if they didn't have to > > > > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > > > > medical care or enough money for > > > > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > > > > experiences make good poetry > > > > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > > > > not myself usually that taken > > > > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > > > > situation who would stop and > > > > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > > > > mainstream not because you > > > > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > > > > white american poets but > > > > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > > > > very queer spoken word > > > > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > > > > interest in theory. > > > > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > > > > experience is suspicious > > > > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > > > > a woman I actually > > > > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > > > > have been putting together > > > > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > > > > This is one hell of rich > > > > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > > > > follow the paradigm of > > > > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > > > > consciousness about the > > > > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > > > > lives. The white (american) > > > > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > > > > persuasive and transformative > > > > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > > > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > > > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > > > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > > > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > > > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:09:38 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Not neccessarily. The class thing "hits a nerve": humans (hence poets of course) are fascinated by their origions, history and future. It is impossile to extricate (most cases) politics from poetics. Discussion of class is good: any discussion is good. It doesnt mean people dont like or "love" poetry: you have no evidence for that. Anycase poets are (or I feel "should") be curious about everything. especially these days when your country is run by homicidal nutcakes planning more nuclear usage... But I am interested in art and I love poetry and see where (in certain respects) it is (or seems at times to be "most" distanced from "worldy" things...at one stage I wanted to ignore politics and so on but it keeps creeping up behind me and bashing me on my metaphorical head (like the chair that threatened Mr C Bernstein the other day))...I also have faith that MOST people in the US and everywhere else in the world are good.... Regards, Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leonard Brink" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:52 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > > i'm struck by how intense the > > discussion is, when the list in recent years cannot sustain actual > > discussions of poetics (officially, its focus) > > Yes, the passion of the most vocal on this list is politics, not art. > The expression "working-class poet" itself forms a picture of > "working-class" (and its various accretions and connotations) driving the > vehicle, while "poet(ry)" is consigned to the back seat (if not bound and > gagged in the trunk.) ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:12:10 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: working class... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Harry Drn I agree and dsagree: its not an either or....ther's good and bad under bridges and inside the ivy clad castles...drn it. Richard Drn. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Harry Nudel" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 9:53 PM Subject: working class... > i've been following this sporadically...but a couple of points...the reason Poetics talk is such a bore is that it's a 'mystery' and better left there...to be tip toed around...and 'poetics' is such an awful word that it should be stamped out... > > as someone who has worked for 30 years as a 'street peddler'...not one of your more prestigious jobs...but someone who is not particularly poor...i;ve had children to support...and contrary to the general sway... of this list..i'm not that much of an idiot...these issues always boil down to class...not money.. > > also as someone who works for himself...and does not hire others...the 'petit bourgeous'....yes the very beast...i like most members of my class 'hate' above all the smug 'acadamecian...civil servant...bureaucrat'....the left that talks but does not work...and talks out of the left side of its mouth to protect its fat a..& mind.. > > the academic destruction of Po is pretty much complete... what we have is theory and recapitualtion...the basis of po is feeling not lang...the cushioning of the U. & fear factor have nuked PO out..from Naropa to Buffalo to the Ivy Leagues..it's all null and void... > > my dad started working as an apprentice tailor in Paris in the 30's....he was 13 & slept under the bridges of the Seine...he's still tailoring at 80...retired to a 50 hour a week work week..after a mjor heart attack... > > working is work...labor...it's not a theory...the sweat there of..and the sun at break of day...drn... ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:46:48 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You mean that of the working class they are near the bottom of the heap: or on the "lowest" strata: and that is a reality but in the West we can be "really working class" and relatively prosperous. But I know what you're saying: we should think of these people who are working in (often) terrible conditions: these people re the peole most often "terrorised" either by physical threats or attacks or by the threat of being sacked. Those kind of people can become suicide bombers: and one can understad how that comes about: the "poor" Israelis exist but far more Palestinians are poor (I'm aware that some also prosperous) and very often desperate - backs to the wall - unlike many Israelis (there has never been an Israeli suicide bomber) - they are often close to physical and psychological dspair - desparation...even exhaustion through poverty and so on: their "frame of mind" is often "revolutionary". Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Bianchi" To: Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 1:01 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > I think that this discussion of a working class poetics has merit. The > problem is who is having the discussion on a working class poetics; > academics. I worked in Latin America for 8 years first in Bolivia and then > in Brazil. I worked for an NGO working with inmates in prision. > The people that I worked with were truly working class, that means that they > had no savings, working with their bodies for a living doing hard, dirty > jobs and they were caught int a cycle of employment violence that lead them > to dispair but also to push for real social change. I am genuinely > interested in what these folks have to say poetically. The problem is that > I do not share their lives and most > writers of poetry and fiction today do not share these lives either. these > people have no voice and I cannot create one for them because I do not share > their struggles. > > Even a poet who is radical like Amiri Baraka is more in the Middle Class > because of the fact that they do not live in that type of world. The > problem is that we objectivfy what should be a subject, people who work > hard. I would challenge people to think about this when talking about a > poetic of work. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "richard.tylr" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:51 AM > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg one > > would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically > "charged" > > or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the > continuing > > military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may > > also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some > > aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA (perceived > > "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim to > > have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the > > heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say > some > > John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means > > they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the > > working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be > > Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all > his > > work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays of > > course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving at" > > but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, > poetry > > etc. Regards, Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Ray Bianchi" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working > class > > > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants and > > > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who are > > > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what they > > are. > > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are some > > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not > the > > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > > > RB > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "michael amberwind" > > > To: > > > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > > > > > What you said about working people often having > > > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > > > others. > > > > > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > > > high school I had what would probably now be > > > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > > > boredom. > > > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > > > in. > > > > > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > > > This is a University town. People who go to > > > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > > > - > > > > would get you through the night. > > > > > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > > > From: Millie Niss > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > > > but working class is > > > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > > > father's house > > > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > > > problmes dealt with > > > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > > > are professionals (though > > > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > > > financial situations) & I > > > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > > > and was trying to get > > > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > > > projects, so we had something > > > > > in common... > > > > > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > > > like the problems of the > > > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > > > often at decent union rates. > > > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > > > was still below the poverty > > > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > > > When you are working, you > > > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > > > went away, but that's because > > > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > > > did not mean moving back into > > > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > > > little income now, but like many > > > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > > > and am talking about are > > > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > > > day, but you have to carry > > > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > > > to read poetry, but you > > > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > > > sleep because the room held > > > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > > > library but you have taught > > > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > > > the book at the right distance > > > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > > > have to quit the job or get > > > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > > > appointments. > > > > > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > > > agency... > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > > > poetry, the way working class > > > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > > > only because that's what's > > > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > > > again if they didn't have to > > > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > > > medical care or enough money for > > > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > > > experiences make good poetry > > > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > > > not myself usually that taken > > > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > > > situation who would stop and > > > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > > > camille roy > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > > > mainstream not because you > > > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > > > white american poets but > > > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > > > very queer spoken word > > > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > > > interest in theory. > > > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > > > experience is suspicious > > > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > > > a woman I actually > > > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > > > have been putting together > > > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > > > This is one hell of rich > > > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > > > follow the paradigm of > > > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > > > consciousness about the > > > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > > > lives. The white (american) > > > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > > > persuasive and transformative > > > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:13:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Jerrold writes: "tho i guess "it's not where you're from, but where you're at" (pulling out my obscure quote book from mid-80's rap music) But it's far more complex than that. Class background (what your parents and their parents did), class position (what you do for a living yourself), class stance (how you envision yourself, class-wise) and class direction (where you are headed) all come into active play. It was Sartre who noted that that artists are for the most part downwardly mobile people (all those trust-fund kiddies that people have mentioned are choosing to live differently from their parents, and genteel poverty is poverty nonetheless). I think of all the petit-bourgeois store and restaurant owners, who do have the ability to hire and fire, but who often earn less the local mailman after working 70+ hours every week. To confuse those people with $150K networking consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty incoherent picture. Add in the nation thing (not to mention the urban/rural axis, the role of language or of religion) and you have a system with so many variables that trying to generalize out of it just is silly. For one thing, we need a definition of class that is adequate to the world of the 20th century, rather than shoehorning everything into 19th C models that weren't that accurate even then, Ron _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:43:51 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alicia Askenase Subject: Agard, Lazer, Silliman, Reed at WWCtr MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable THE WALT WHITMAN ART CENTER's Notable Poets and Writers Series announces the Final readings and workshops of the season: FRIDAY, MARCH 22, 2002 7:30 pm Our 5th ANNUAL POETRY SLAM=20 Featuring: ROGER-BONAIR AGARD $75 PRIZE. Call 856-964-8300 for info. FRIDAY, APRIL 5, 2002, 7:30 pm,=20 Reading featuring=20 HANK LAZER and RON SILLIMAN =20 SATURDAY, APRIL 6, 12-2 pm=20 Poetry workshop w/ Hank Lazer wwac@wwac@wwac@wwac@wwac@wwac@wwac@wwac@wwac FRIDAY, APRIL 12, 2002, 7:30 pm,=20 Reading featuring ISHMAEL REED =20 SATURDAY, APRIL 13, 10 am-12 pm Fiction workshop w/Ishmael Reed How To Register for WORKSHOPS Both are based on a first-come, first-served basis. Fee: $30 general/$20 members $30 include a year-long membership. LAZER WORKSHOP: Class Size Limit: 10 Send three pages of poetry w/check. Deadline: March 29. REED WORKSHOP: Class Size Limit: 6 Send five pages of fiction w/check.=20 Deadline: April 5. Please call and charge or send check or money order payable to: Walt Whitman Art Center Literary Workshops Johnson Park 2nd and Cooper Sts. Camden, NJ 08102 ROGER BONAIR-AGARD is a poet, educator, activist, slam-coach and the 1999=20 National Individual Slam Champion. His work has been featured in Phat'itude= =20 Literary Magazine, Spheric, the Envoy and the anthologies New Voices from th= e=20 Nuyorican Poets Caf=C3=A9, and 360 Degrees-A Revolution of Black Poets. His= first=20 major poetry collection , also a one-man show is =E2=80=A6And Chaos Congeale= d, and=20 his forthcoming naming and other Christian things will be published this=20 coming year. In addition to non stop performance and educational residency touring around= =20 the United States, Mr. Bonair-Agard is has been a featured guest on the Jim=20 Lehrer News Hour OnLine Focus. He has a riveting stage presence and=20 educational style-he mesmerizes, enchants and ultimately air-lifts his=20 audience/classes to a rhythmic spoken word journey from which they return=20 forever transformed. HANK LAZER, poet, critic, publisher, editor and all around highly talented=20 good guy has been on the forefront of experimental poetry for the last three= =20 decades. His books include Doublespace: Poems 1971-1989, INTER(IR)RUPTIONS=20= ,=20 Mouth to Mouth, Negation, Three of Ten, Early Days of the Lang Dynasty, and=20 his most recent collection, Days. In addition, he is the author of Opposing= =20 Poetries, essays on modern and contemporary poetry as well as two influentia= l=20 books of criticism. Lazer has also presented several performance pieces and= =20 participated in collaborative performances with other artists, including=20 visual artists and dancers.=20 Hank Lazer received an A.B. degree in English from Stanford University, and=20 holds M.A. and Ph.D. degrees in English from the University of Virginia. A=20 Professor of English at the University of Alabama, where he has taught since= =20 1977, Lazer is currently Assistant Dean for Humanities and Fine Arts. The distinguished and innovative poet RON SILLIMAN, has at different times i= n=20 his life worked as a prison and tenant organizer, lobbyist, teacher, college= =20 administrator, editor of Socialist Review, and a marketeer in the computer=20 industry. Long considered a national leader of the Language-centered writin= g=20 movement, Ron Silliman's poetry and criticism have influenced an entire=20 generation of poets. His concept of the New Sentence spawned literally dozen= s=20 of efforts based on his idea of prose writing. He is the author of over 20=20 books of poetry, and criticism, and has edited several literary collections. Silliman's writing is fun to read: Its pleasure lies in the gradual unfoldin= g=20 of intricate forms and in the mix of puns, declarations, sounds and sights=20 from our daily environment, the range of references from philosophy to=20 baseball. --Hank Lazer Novelist, journalist, poet, and satirist ISHMAEL REED is the author of more=20 than 20 books, including novels, essays, plays, and poetry, and is a=20 recipient of the MacArthur Genius Award and the Lila Wallace Foundation=20 Award. He has been a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize and was twice nominated= =20 for the National Book Award. Reed has taught at Harvard, Yale, and Dartmouth= =20 and has long been on the faculty at UC-Berkeley. In 1967 he published his=20 first novel, The Free-Lance Pallbearers, a parody of Ralph Ellison's=20 bestseller Invisible Man. That same year he moved to California's San=20 Francisco Bay Area, where the cultural diversity has greatly influenced his=20 writing. Reed's 1972 novel Mumbo Jumbo presented a counter-mythology, dubbed= =20 "HooDooism," that challenged the myth that Western culture must be glorified= =20 at the expense of all other cultures. He is founder of the Before Columbus=20 Foundation, a nonprofit organization established to promote American=20 multicultural literature. Reed is well-known for using satire and parody to=20 emphasize and advocate the importance of all cultures, rather than the=20 dominance of one. =20 All readings are $6 general/ $4 students, seniors, free to members Consider membership! For as little as $20.00 enjoy free admission to all=20 upcoming Center readings, and most other events, in addition to discounts on= =20 workshops and books, before the price skyrockets to $25! Alicia Askenase Literary Director Walt Whitman Art Center Johnson Park 2nd and Cooper Streets Camden, NJ 08102 856-964-8300 wwhitman@waltwhitmancenter.org www.waltwhitmancenter.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:47:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Organization: Boog Literature Subject: Stroffolino song MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Stroffolino song for Joanna I know a boy named Stroffolino He’ll talk to you ’til his face is blue I know a boy named Stroffolino Sometimes he’ll just talk right over you Phil Ochs? Let me tell you about Phil Ochs, says Chris. Here’s the whole Phil Ochs catalog I have it on digital and analog Here’s the Phil Ochs biography Let me recite it to you from memory I am gonna sing all of his songs I am gonna sing all night long I don’t need any caffeine I’m Chris Stroffolino, know what I mean? Talk to me and tell me a story About the time you met Povich Maury About the time that you two guys hung With him and his wife Connie Chung I just wanna be like Stroffolino Say whatever’s on my mind I just wanna be like Stroffolino Write great poems all of the time At a Philadelphia reading Chris decides that poetry’s dead At a Philadelphia reading Chris thinks Lenny Bruce is in his head Stroffolino’s the best poet I know A bit intense, even he’ll tell you so He played keyboards with the Silver Jews But it didn’t make the evening news (and he’s not happy) I am playing on a swing Stroffolino’s swinging too I am looking up at the sky Pushing myself up real high And Stroffolino won’t stop talking (shh-h-h-h-h) Talk to me and tell me a story About the time you met Povich Maury About the time that you two guys hung With him and his wife Connie Chung I just wanna be like Stroffolino Say whatever’s on my mind I just wanna be like Stroffolino Write great poems all of the time —dak 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 08:18:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: bill berkson in philadelphia In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT Bill Berkson in Philadelphia March 27 On Art & Poetry Conversation with Trevor Winkfield The Kelly Writer's House 3805 Locust Walk University of Pennsylvania March 27, 4:30 p.m. * Poetry reading Temple University Center City campus 1515 Market St, Room 222. March 27, 8 p.m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:14:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan C Golding Subject: WCW query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Can anyone remember where the famous (except, obviously, to me, right now) WCW passage "you cannot get the news from poems" etc. comes from? B/C is fine, and thanks. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 12:26:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Cassandra Laity Subject: CFP: MSA Poetry Panel on The Lyric Comments: To: hdsoc-l@uconnvm.uconn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am forwarding this message for Eileen Gregory Cassandra Laity CFP: MSA 4(Oct. 31 - Nov. 3) Poetry Panel on The Status of the Lyric The category of "lyric" (lyricality, lyricism) has had a negative valence i= n criticism for the last two decades, identified broadly with New Critici= sm and with the Romantic and Modern suppositions which grounded it. "Lyri= c" in recent criticism has implied nostalgia for presence, bourgeois deni= al of historical contingency. Lyric is posited in an abstract, dialectica= l opposition to narrative, the former carrying decidedly negative ethical= valences, the latter positive ones.=20 But reconsiderations of the lyric and lyricism is underway, which qualify o= r go beyond the terms of its critical dismissal (Zimmerman on Romantic po= etry, New on American poetry; Allen Grossman's Summa Lyrica and other com= mentaries by practicing poets). I invite proposals that address the criti= cal status of lyric (lyricality, lyricism) at the present moment. These m= ay interrogate the critical history of discussions of lyric, consider som= e of the current models of reading, or propose new models of investigatio= n Please send brief proposals to Eileen Gregory by April 10, at engregory@ea= rthlink.net ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:26:54 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: TWO READINGS In-Reply-To: <3C8DB73B.D4113053@earthlink.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sunday, March 17, 4 pm at Diesel Books in Oakland Wednesday, April 3, 4:30 pm at the Poetry Center, SFSU Paul Hoover and Maxine Chernoff will read from their new collections of poetry, REHEARSAL IN BLACK and WORLD (Salt Press). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:22:33 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: A.Word.A.Day--samizdat MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII a tid bit from another list i'm on. bye, kevin To: linguaphile@wordsmith.org Subject: A.Word.A.Day--samizdat samizdat (SAH-miz-daht) noun An underground publishing system to print and circulate banned literature clandestinely. Also, such literature. [From Russian samizdat, from samo- (self) + izdatelstvo (publishing house), from izdat (to publish). Coined facetiously on the model of Gosizdat (State Publishing House).] "This remarkable little book (People Power Uli!) includes jokes, text messages, cartoons and poems of the revolt. It is both funny and a valuable record of samizdat literature and Philippine popular culture." Alastair Dingwall, Estrada's Fall From Grace, Far Eastern Economic Review (Hong Kong), Jan 17, 2002. This weeks's theme: words from Russian. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:55:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Avery Burns Subject: Canessa Park 3/24/02 Cunningham & Felsinger MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Canessa Park Reading Series 708 Montgomery St. @ Columbus San Francisco, CA Admission $5 Sunday March 24th @ 6:30 pm (PLEASE NOTE THE TIME) Brent Cunningham & Andrew Felsinger Brent Cunningham was born in Wisconsin, raised in North Carolina & various locales in California, graduated, graduated again, graduated a third time, wrote newspaper articles, sold Clickmiles during the Tulip Craze, currently working for Small Press Distribution, also a board member of Small Press Traffic, as well as writing & painting. Brent's 10-minute play "Sentences for Travellers" was recently performed as part of the Poet's Theater Jubilee--he also built sets and acted in the festival. He has consistently and successfully protected his work from the defilement of publication. THE MONSTER If only to be rid of my persistent queasiness, I determined a course of action. I would describe the monster in all its repugnant detail. Yes: exactly! No! I'll not lie any longer! Doesn't the storm still rage outside my window? Don't lovers still hide in the closet, preserving their mysteries from one another? Nevertheless, I've thought deeply in my kingdom, favoring the international perspective. Despite the rheumatism, I’m a respected conversationalist. Like a shaft of bioluminescent lightning, the vituperative truth struck me in an instant: I was not in fact a lighthearted being. What difference if the monster has or hasn't performed this or that act to this or that part of my body or ideas? Pieces of my "nevertheless" still exist in its teeth. Even now, I recoil from a knitted hat as if it were a second colony. O, this accursed urge to make friends with it! My god! Its footsteps! The scene is playing again, through the gothic doorarch—fringed entirely in shadows! Am I deceived? Does it not pause by the mirror, encased in so-called visible reality, to admire itself? Does it not yet know it’s a monster? I beg you—defenseless, sickly, just over here a little ways O, the fog on the moat! O, the moat under the fog! Will I ever be indifferent? Will I know love? Regardless--I've lived! Goodbye, glinting fixtures! Goodbye, stanchions of oak! After me, the flood! ** Andrew Felsinger's work has appeared in MIRAGE PERIOD(ICAL), Skanky Possum, untitled, Can We Have Our Ball Back, and Crack. He edits the on line magazine, VeRT, which has just published its sixth issue. Hysterical Materialism The booming flowers are an affect of local politics Just as the bed sheets are torn to assure us peace Thusly we misidentify ourselves as a cannon And a gaffe is made to turn its back Like the sky flung across the neck of a welcoming nude Each cylinder, orchid, thread, furnace Has time and thought at its most real For as the screaming quiets the neighborhood The melon is cut. *** Hope to see you there, Avery E. D. Burns Literary Director __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:17:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: M L Weber Subject: Sugar Mule - new issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Online now - issue 10 - Poetry Pierre Joris CANTO DIURNO #2 Karl Young from Milestones Prose Paul Beckman Three pieces Andrei Codrescu Road Kill Shawn Davis Shakedown Paul Alan Fahey A Solitary Sound Herbert Foster Kaufman My Last Run John J. Maguire The Former Traveller Rochelle Ratner Popping Seaweed Wayne Scheer Road Trip Lawrence Upton Hesperides Harriet Zinnes Without Any Pressing Need _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 06:16:59 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: AdeenaKarasick@CS.COM Subject: Re: leading a writing workshop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Staples and Office Depot have sections of them. I too, am nostalgiac for those days (of my lettraset, my corolla & my broken down offset) Good luck, Adeena Karasick ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 17:39:26 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Question of Gossip.A New Discovery In Poetics!! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In normal circumstances I am a quiet, unobtrusive little man who would never ever boast any qualities or significance but in confernence and urgent consideration of the comment below - which elevates literary criticism to such heights: well we now have a new category of poetry or poetics: Philosadrivel..now in this category people will be able to attempt to outdo each other in inanity or pointlessness and compete also in divagatious "frittles" of fragments: prizes such as Poet Lauriate to he/she who drivellest longest ad so on.....hence I had to send this on with C Stroffo's commendations with which I am (modestly) in agreement. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "richard.tylr" To: Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 11:33 PM Subject: Re: Question of Gossip..... > I wasnt there. But it was clear that this was an "enactment". Or could have > been...(After all the subject WAS performance)... Mr Charles Bernstein was > the semiosis of a Chairman which capacity was in reality or in corpus > actualis not there: or at least the chairman was there but couldnt decide > whether his intercession would be a violation ... of something .... nor did > he wish to appear or sound vocal if he couldnt be comletely polyvocal: > besides which I heard a rumour (e'en at this distance) that everyone present > were pissed (inebriated) as newts in pools of turpentine serpentine...but > other theories are that C Bernstein had had a suicide bomb strapped to his > bonk in case the terms "apotheotic apple ape" or "ontological chocolate" > were used: this bomb looked a bit like a fly and Mr Shapiro, equally under > the power of the sacred ichor, mistook or misstuck it for a large and > bothersome formalist fly, which....well you know (some) of the rest of the > story...in fact the whole thing was confused because D S also thought (or > thought he thought he thought) that this was to be the que for C Bernski to > jump up and tap dance (after all he has written the phrase: "toe tapping > tintabulation") to the rhythm of one of his masterpieces such as the nearly > immortalised swooning Klupsy...but in this case the resulting performance > would have brought people further away from, not to, their senses....There > are various theories and "takes" on the conference...(These days poets such > as the ones you describe spend more time at conferences than they do writing > poems...) The atmostphere, in any case, was qute outrageously decadent and > riotous in the extreme...I've considerd contacting the 90 minute speech > Chinese President (whatever his name is) on the decadent and corrupt > practice of Western poet gurus...I did hear that at the alleged conference's > termination no one was any the wiser for the event...But other than this: I > know nothing more. Richard Taylor. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino" > To: > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:40 AM > Subject: Question of Gossip..... > > > > Hello--- > > > > I heard that there was some poetry event in NYC the other night > > and I would like to hear, if possible, some versions of what happened. > > I was told that it was some panel on performance poetry > > (as oppossed to some performance on panelled poetry) > > and that, at one point, Charles Bernstein was going on and on and not > > letting others talk, and the audience was getting upset and > > David Shapiro, who was also on the panel, at one point > > HELD A CHAIR OVER BERNSTEIN'S HEAD (which > > would sound violent if it were someone else and not say David Shapiro) > > and it broke the tension, and people laughed..... > > It almost sounds unbelievable, but I am curious if any of you were there > > to confirm, or clarify > > (sorry this is just too juicy to keep to myself....) > > > > Chris > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:42:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > April 13 - Jorie Graham, 7:30 p.m. (reception and signing follows) I thought we already decided Jorie Graham sucks? Maybe that was another list. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:12:11 -0500 Reply-To: gmcvay@patriot.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: leading a writing workshop MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >>>I am leading a poetry writing workshop for some mentally ill people<<< No kidding: you and every other poet who teaches. Signed, Mentally Ill Person ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 18:44:54 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Re: anne waldman query Comments: To: damon001@TC.UMN.EDU MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maria-- > can anybody give me the citation for where anne waldman makes her famous > parodic statement about making the world safe for poetry? thanks in > advance. bests, md To the best of my recollection it's in the blurb on the back of the Talisman _Younger (American) Poets_ anthology. (I should add that if you want an interesting & extremely hostile reading of that blurb & of the book as a whole, it's worth looking at Andrea Brady's review in _Quid_ magazine 4.) all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://pages.sprint.ca/ndorward/files/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:24:00 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Hebriana Alainentalo MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear List--I just wanted to draw your attention to one of the most remarkable sound poets I've ever heard. Hebriana Alainentalo was born in Liviojarvi, Lapland, in the far north of Sweden, bordering Finland. In her sound work she seeks to replicate the sounds of the georgaphical area in which she lives. Truly remarkable Shaman-like vocalizations of great range and power. Some of what she does reminds me a bit of Meridith Monk's Tablet. Of course the temptation here is to wax new-age and speak of goddesses and mysteries and that sort of thing, and one could certainly do so upon listening to what she does. Anyway, the experience is available in the form of a CD sampler produced by Ingvar Loco Nordin/ Diagona Ivagen 36/ 61157 Nykoping, Sweden. loco.nordin@mbox200.swipnet.se Loco's website can be found through Google. You can read more about Alainentalo there. Loco is one of the best people to talk to about new music, and one of the most generous. Jesse About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:36:15 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: Next Week: World/Dialogue Poetry Readings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Friends: Next week, hundreds of readings around the world are taking= place to discuss: Can poetry create a culture of peace and non-violence in the world. The readings also celebrate UNESCO's World Poetry Day and Dialogue Through Poetry Week. They are listed on http://www.dialoguepoet= ry.org If your reading is not listed, please fill in the form at http://www.dial= oguepoetry.org/poetryweek.htm Remember to collect the poems that are read because we plan to publish a FREE ebook anthology of the readings. Also, send us photos for the websit= e. Lastly, on March 8, 2002, there was a 1/2-page article in the New York Ti= mes on Poetry on the Peaks. The article was titled "Poetry on Mountaintops, or at Least Hilltops" by James Gorman. It was in the Weekend Arts section= . The full article is available at http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain_nytimes_article.htm Also, please join us: 2002 Dialogue Through Poetry Reading Wednesday 20, March, 2002 from 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm The New School, Tishman Auditorium at 66 West 12th St., New York City. FREE Featured poets and readers: Breyten Breytenbach, Shashi Tharoor, Bob Holm= an, Sonia Sanchez, Sharon Olds and others. Cheers, Ram Devineni and Larry Jaffe Program Coordinators Rattapallax Press 532 La Guardia Place Suite 353 New York, NY 10012 USA http://www.rattapallax.com http://www.dialoguepoetry.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 22:57:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: "meltdowns, ... gun-shy, ... clashes, ... unease, distrust" In-Reply-To: <20020312054005.68575.qmail@web11704.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see what you mean--- the poetry we respect the most, at leasdt on this list, is content-free even when it has content. For example, a language poem may have a whole little section that reads like a piece of free verse of the sort we abhor, and it may even have characters in it, with, dare to mention it... emotions... but we aren't to read it as a poemlet with any affective content. Instead we are to read the junctures between the sections and glory in the fact that the poem as a whole does not do anything so vulgar as narrate or lyricize or god forbid promote an idea or make us feel anything. What's obvious, of course, is that the skills needed to write such a poem are exactly those needed to write the poemlets, eg the tradutional ones of observing the world around us and forming images about it and so on. So that anyone can become a language poet if their poems are short enough and they combine them into a single poem with each one having different margins. By the way, I am thinking of language poems I quite like when I say this (I had N/O or Ron Silliman's in front of me, which does do what I am describing but also uses many other techniques and does noit reduce to the method I suggested above), and of course I am exaggerating. Then of course there are language poems which are composed only of recognizable words or phrases but no little sections. Lest anyone say "my two-year-old could do that with the aid of a really good dictionary," I'd like to point out that these poems can be hilarious when done right (although the joke does get old when a whoile book is like this, as in Jackson Mac Low's _Twenties_) and surely would be painful if done wrong. I heard Bruce Andrews read a poem like this on New years at the Poetry Project and it was pretty cool. But it is the ultimate banishment of content. Why has it become vulgar to write a poem about something unless it is an angry poem about how you were raped when you were twelve by your father's gay lover? If the story is sensational enough, it seems, we are willing to call it poetry even if it is badly written, whereas being about something tends to eliminate much decent poetry from being thought of as any good if it is about less soap-operatic content. I shouldn't talk as if this is something They do to me or something, because when I'm at the bookstore looking at new poetry books, and I flip them open one by one, I immediately discard anything in which the language is just standard written English arranged in free verse and there is a discernable subject. If I can't tell what the poem is saying, that means I'm more likely to buy the book, esopecially if I suspect it isn't saying anything at all. So I am a slave to this fashion of sneering at content. Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:40 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: "meltdowns, ... gun-shy, ... clashes, ... unease, distrust" Mark Prejsnar wrote: > my guess, . . . 2. a checkered history of flame wars and meltdowns make people here gun-shy about issues that might generate ego clashes, and it appears that talking about the thing we share most intensely does just that; ... this second point interests me very much; because i suspect it says something about the feel that the poetry community has right now: one of unease, distrust, and a lack of respect and supportiveness beyong small personal circles.. < Mark, As I back-channeled you, the Buffalo Poetics List meltdown of this past summer had disastrous consequences, nationally, in the distrust and unease I believe you're correct in diagnosing. But, maybe more significantly, that feverish pitch that things had broken past then coicided with 9/11, and a whole other level of paranoias and battle fatigue compounded all the poet-inflicted wounds. . . . Which brings us to the more serious and forboding omission on-List and in our poetries right now: the failure of our movements' modes not only to incorporate incumbent issues of concern such as class anxieties --- a bit of a red herring at the moment --- but the more critical pressures that being at war and recession and anthrax insanity, etc., exerts on us. "Poets are the antennae of the race,"--- in which case at least the heated prose letter-writing dialogue on-List betrays the massive avoidance that the collective psyche is exerting, a virtually schizoid shut-down denial and foreclosure of the most obvious challenge poetry is now facing: war, and whether our mode is elastic enough to in any way confront these devastations. The "denial" is glaring. The burden on poets and artists is doubly difficult, because we feel in some way that our poetry is ~supposed to~ be the channel or voice for the collective consciousness' current damaged vulnerability--- and yet poetic "affect" (emotion) is treated as an embarassing archaicism that's been mocked on this List. More humiliating, too, that poetries which our sophistication (indoctrination, education) considers too risibly unmentionable, such as the "hackneyed," "trite" poem that the 14 year old and 6 year old sons of the Twin Towers casualty read this morning at the six month memorial at "Ground Zero," ~are~ succeeding in consummating the national focus. We're going through something that for us as protected innocents is as rupturing or worse than what our parents and grandparents went through with the two World Wars,--- and that battle fatigue produced Modernism: see Surrealism hatching out of Breton's transcriptions of the doughboys' nerve gas delirium, see Beckett's buffo quadruplegics in baskets and couples in garbage cans as living memory (objective correlative) of the war-amputated, Existentialism, and on and on. The war poetries of the twentieth century have always been completely opaque and shut off to us/me: Paul Eluard, the artilleries glimpsed passingly in Reverdy's cubism, . . . Tellingly, under now discussion now, not the Whitman poet of the battlefield but a Whitman re-written and neutralized into a question of grammar, too. A week or two after 9/11 I was in a NYC basement bar reading, and, of the two readers, one of the List's and community's more illustrious young mavericks was reading punning, play-on-word, asyntactical "approved' poetry, and the other, a more mature and seasoned woman poet, was reading still post-modern but more body-based, aggrieved semi-discursivity, which a poet whispered to me was based on her experience with her child suffering from cancer,--- and the first, School of Buffalo poet sounded unbearably in bad taste, beyond irrelevant, irresponsible, and the latter the grounding of "affect" and hurtable flesh that was so deeply needed. It may take decades for poetry and art to work these repressed traumas out into some form. The predominant obscurantist mode we've inheritted since the '80s does not seem capable of meeting the challenge of so Grand and intolerable a Theme. I just thought your brave candor worth underscoring by pointing out the invisible elephant in the middle of the living room that the dysfunctional family isn't talking about and ~can't~ talk about because our poetic language has had "content" qua content censored out of it. This is what's called a "crisis" of representation (or representability). Personally, I'm looking backwards, to how the Modernist generations worked out these dilemmas of disjunctiveness and body bags. Thanks, Mark. Jeffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:03:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: so MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - so true of the web of eternal life || swallow-tailed kites high above turkey buzzards. that alligator following me almost on shore as we danced near overhead mind you partying, mating black buzzards that brought our skin to the foreground, as if meristemation in aerial required columnar cacti tips on christmas cacti or flatter opuntia trailing down from mangrove, wounded halloween dragonfly carried to save haven while black mangrove pneumato- phores sheltered beneath hurricane treefall and, with us, mating black buzzards that brought our skin to the foreground, as if meristemation in aerial required columnar cacti tips on christmas cacti or flatter opuntia trailing down from mangrove, wounded halloween dragonfly carried to safe haven while black mangrove pneumatophores sheltered beneath hurricane treefall and:ibis flocks and woodstork, lower on mosquitofish, but it was the cacti vines, looking grafted, even over:of the web of eternal life || swallow-tailed kites high above turkey buzzards. that alligator following me almost on shore as we danced near overhead::white crab carapace lively cormorant perch suffice in my contrary red white black of twist, makeup eaten by tricolored greenbacked herons _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 10:55:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT EVENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit MARCH 15, FRIDAY SHORT FILMS,VIDEOS, AND THE VOCABULARY OF THE MOVING IMAGE MARCH 18, MONDAY STEPHEN BURT and JEAN-PAUL PECQUEUR MARCH 20, WEDNESDAY JOHN YAU and LYNN CRAWFORD MARCH 22, FRIDAY 20 DJS IN 200 MINUTES March 25th thru 29th, Holy Week, No Readings. FOR MORE INFORMATION VISIT: HTTP://WWW.POETRYPROJECT.COM/CALENDAR.HTML ******************** MARCH 15, FRIDAY SHORT FILMS,VIDEOS, AND THE VOCABULARY OF THE MOVING IMAGE This evening presents a brief survey of diverse approaches to short film and video making. All of the work presented has been either shot on video, or shot on film and transfered to video. Viewers will engage with projections of video art, animation, and experimental narrative shorts. Digital video is the format for the moving image in the new century. Scheduled films by directors: ALISON MCDONALD, ANDY WATTS, PETER SCHAPIRO and others. [10:30 pm] MARCH 18, MONDAY STEPHEN BURT and JEAN-PAUL PECQUEUR STEPHEN BURT teaches poetry and literature at Macalester College in St. Paul, Minnesota. His book of poems, Popular Music, received the Colorado Prize for 1999. Subsequent poems have appeared in Agni, American Letters & Commentary, Barrow Street, Jacket, and the Paris Review, among others. JEAN-PAUL PECQUEUR lives in Tucson. His poems have recently appeared in Verse, ZYZZYVA, Sonora Review, Seattle Review and River City and will soon appear in Passages North and Arts and Letters. [8:00 p.m.] MARCH 20, WEDNESDAY JOHN YAU and LYNN CRAWFORD LYNN CRAWFORD is the author of Solow and Blow from Hard Press and a chapbook, Holiday, published by Dolphin Press. Simply Separate People is forthcoming this year from Black Square editions. Her work appears in the anthologies, Fetish (Four Walls Eight Windows), and The Oulipo Compendium (Atlas Press, London). JOHN YAU is a poet, fiction writer, and art critic. Over the past two decades he has published two dozen books of fiction, poetry, and art criticism, establishing himself as a major innovative poet and an internationally respected art critic, willing to write about both major figures such as Jasper Johns and outsider artists such as Joe Coleman. [8:00 p.m.] MARCH 22, FRIDAY 20 DJS IN 200 MINUTES Where words fail music prevails. Chatty as all get out, this event was conceived by the night's host, and forwarded further by journalist/DJ Michael Vasquez of Sub Rosa, NYC. James Hoff (of The Loudmouth Collective), Charles Waters, Nathan Apland, Tahir Hemphill (of Red Clay), Mailk Williams, DJ Efabulous, Nathan Corbin, John Morton aka JM229, Marina Rosenfeld, Brett Crenshaw aka B. Rett, evluvx, Bill Pfeiffer + (more DJ's to be named) plus open turn table [10:30 p.m.] March 25th thru 29th, Holy Week, No Readings. -- Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $7, $4 for students and seniors, and $3 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, the corner of 2nd Avenue and 10th Street in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or visit our Web site at http://www.poetryproject.com. If you are currently on our email list and would like to be on our regular mailing list (so you can receive a sample issue of The Poetry Project Newsletter for FREE), just reply to this email with your full name and address. Hope to hear from you soon!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 04:20:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: Fwd: working class... nudel-soho@mindspring.com wrote: > too continue the diatribe..try looking at the roots of rad writing...Columbia..Ginsberg Burroughs Kerouac.............Harvard Ashbery O'hara Koch Creeley (non-grad)...Wesleyan...Merrill...etc etc etc...if Bush's Cabinet looked like this what would Amiri Baraka who has worked all of one day a week for most of his life as a full prof say...all the more time to eat em u up capitlaism, my dear...drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:30:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark DuCharme Subject: Re: WCW query Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed It is from "Asphodel, That Greeny Flower," which is in the collection _Pictures from Breughel_. The passage reads: It is difficult to get the news from poems yet men die miserably every day for lack of what is found there. Mark DuCharme >From: Alan C Golding >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: WCW query >Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 00:14:20 -0500 > >Can anyone remember where the famous (except, obviously, to me, right >now) WCW passage "you cannot get the news from poems" etc. comes from? > >B/C is fine, and thanks. > >Alan 'poetry because things say' —Bernadette Mayer _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:28:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I hope he has not become a nun -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Aaron Belz Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 11:54 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Daryl Hine Whatever happened to Daryl Hine? -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 12:38:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: leading a writing workshop In-Reply-To: <157.a67c60c.29c08f2b@cs.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You must have had a great need for letraset if your work was similar in those days as now. I really like your books; they arre great to look at and actually have have content... I have Genrecide in front of me here (I must have anther book of yours in another room because I remember more weird type and pictures...) Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of AdeenaKarasick@CS.COM Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:17 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: leading a writing workshop Staples and Office Depot have sections of them. I too, am nostalgiac for those days (of my lettraset, my corolla & my broken down offset) Good luck, Adeena Karasick ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 11:22:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Amato Subject: Re: a working-class poet elephant In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" first, jeffrey j---i don't understand how a discussion of class is a diversion from the real elephant (the war, and the foreboding public sphere that thereby emerges)... i'm not sure you're saying this---but if you are... there are at least several elephants in the room with us, far as i can tell, have been right along... you wanna talk about the war, as we have in the past, please jeffrey, let's talk about the war!... if so disposed, i'll chime in (as i have been writing about it in/for other contexts)... ron, it seems to me that, aside from those who ascribe to more unreconstructed versions of same, class has only ever been a loosely-defined rubric under which certain kinds of experiences/beliefs/loyalties are presumed to be held (and *are* held perhaps most emphatically, if tacitly, at the local levels at which they apply, i would say) as more pressing than others... which awareness of same could yet provide the basis for more global coalitions/alliances... which could yet be the basis for certain kinds of (demographic and theoretical) generalizations... locally in fact, one can (still) identify working-class communities with very specific attributes, to whatever degree they might depart from more typical postwar representations... take las vegas, for example... it's become something of THE collective bargaining center in the intermountain/southwestern u.s., as many of you no doubt know, what with its casino workers---from housekeepers to valets---unionized, and making what, by all accounts, is a decent wage (so many of these workers are latino/a, i might add)... so it's pretty easy to generalize about las vegas---what sort of housing is available, e.g., on what sorts of salaries... and it's pretty easy to see this class of workers as distinct from that upper class profile you point to... as it's pretty easy to see the growing presence of casinos on native american reservations as distinct from said profile... it's also pretty easy for me to point to friends/acquaintances whose parents were from the working class, like mine, yet who aspire to middle and upper-middle class trappings in ways that often strike [me] as mere affectation... me too, i would say---i mean, i share some of these affectations, and it bugs me, sometimes a lot, sometimes a little (e.g., if you tell me that the 26" tv in the middle of our living room is a mere affectation, you and i are going to have words... b/c i have been known to regard the *absence of same* on the part of my friends as an affectation)... yes, very muddy waters to be sure, but no less susceptible for that to critical reflection... as an academic, i'm struck that this is something of the same problem richard rodriguez lineates in his ~hunger of memory~ (and i'm aware that even mentioning rodriguez's name gives some folks conniptions---for the record, i'm not endorsing his assimilative leanings)... as to the question of the petit-bourgeois (if that isn't *already* an anachronistic construction): i'm not wedded to maintaining strict class boundaries/loyalties, but e.g., your ma & pa restaurant owners---more and more of whom, it seems to me, can be identified as belonging to a dwindling, generally urban body of "non-white ethnic" restaurateurs (thanx in the main to the proliferation both of fast food joints and, more recently, syndicated "ethnic food" joints like olive garden, which, despite their organ-grinding claims, continue the assimilation e.g. of "italian" into "white" via superficially "ethnic" food)---seems to me that these ma & pa restaurateurs are aspiring, many of them, to some version of the old american dream... that is, realistically or no, the same old same old american dream that greeted the first and second waves of immigration into the u.s. last century... that current economic realities would seem to give the lie to this dream (would have given the lie to it to some degree in past decades, if looked at aright) doesn't mean it's not alive and well... personally, i don't think you work 70 hrs/week as a restaurateur w/o something of this aspiration, but i could be wrong... i say this to suggest that these restaurateurs are hardly the european petit-bourgeois, say, as represented by the german, then french-german, side of my mother's family pre-wwii, who owned a restaurant, chez bentz (later, chez bourgoin), in landau, germany---which restaurant, i hear tell, is now a sawmill, having been grabbed up by the reich (uh-oh, there i go again, waxing autobiographical)... my mother's parents obviously didn't predicate their lives on anything like an "american dream"---though my father's sicilian parents did, their version of the dream consisting, i would say, of the possibility of home/land-ownership (which never happened)... but what to do with this information?... i would say, if one can posit a restaurateur profile here, today, over and against one there, yesterday, over and against that $150K financial manager profile you mention, ron, you have some data that might be used to draw some conclusions... so again, i guess i have to disagree with you when you write: "you have a system with so many variables that trying to generalize out of it just is silly"... i just can't get behind this kind of, uhm, generalization (!), no hard feelings... in fact, this discussion seems at times to drift between the scylla of "nobody here can talk about working class" and the charybdis of "nobody here *should* talk about working class"... gender and race are immensely difficult, messy social categories (whether one holds that class is more difficult or messy is not quite to the point)... that this doesn't stop folks from speaking about them intelligently (as well as making patently absurd claims for same) should mean that class, too, ought to enjoy such considered treatment around here (and i refrain from discussing the interrelatedness of gender/race/class---but of course, this serves to make any such discussion the more daunting)... and i would think, i would think that one of the very BEST ways to get at these experiential conundrums, together, would be to seek out the requisite messy articulations---i.e., WRITE ABOUT THEM... what are we doing here together, anyway, if not trying to learn something about what we've each learned?... and though some will say this departs from a discussion of poetics per se, i will for the umpteenth time observe that what one says, and how one says it, depends for its reception at least in part on the who that is presumed to be saying what, how... we needn't beat this into the ground constantly, no, but what's wrong with a little discussion of our class anxieties?... really, from where i sit, putting a human face on this stuff helps me digest (i.e., w/o alka seltzer) those many sentences coming at me online whose semantic immediacy depends largely on what the meaning of "is" is... in this regard: aaron belz's query about a convention/conference or some such emerging from and attending to this list community has been raised before (by moi, if you've been around for a while)... for the record, again, i think it's a great idea... but i can offer no practical suggestions on this count, either... anyway... i would mself prefer writing (on class etc.) that at least occasionally takes stock of its own representational assumptions/inadequacies... though autobiography can often amount to little more than ejaculation of logos in solitude, i have to confess that this kinda stuff only comes home to me, as a rule, if someone, uhm, brings it on home... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 09:57:43 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: WCW query In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Asphodel At 12:14 AM 3/13/2002 -0500, you wrote: >Can anyone remember where the famous (except, obviously, to me, right >now) WCW passage "you cannot get the news from poems" etc. comes from? > >B/C is fine, and thanks. > >Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 15:50:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Popken Subject: internet radio going bye bye Comments: To: loadedword@egroups.com, pppoetics@lists.colorado.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sitting around spring break? How about saving internet radio. Soon internet stream radio will be crushed under the heinous heel of the corporate jerkfaces. This affects us all! http://www.saveinternetradio.org ===== ***************************** Benjamin Popken Radio 1190 Business Relations ph: 303-735-4779 fx: 303-492-1369 bpopken@Yahoo.com ***************************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:19:15 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yep. But you all have to fly out to Panmure (Auckland) (New Zealand) and its to be held in my local boozer which is working class - well its full of retired working stiffs - but is an historical pub: none of your goin' to the Auckland Uni and reading there with likes of Leggott and that Wystan Curnow or those brainy blokes and blokessses (the Departure Lounge on K Road has living writers and poets etc and musicians every Tuesday night though) at Auckland or any yuppy or any well-heeled people or those "arty" types with funny hair people: a special will be a visit to Otara (Auckland's Harlem): a riot (we had one last week) at the Auck Council meeting where the crazy Mayor (John Banks) (who gets parking tickets and got a fine for riding a kind of jet ski thing on a local beach and who wants to evict old pensioners and build more motorways and deport all "foreignors"): you have to pay me to come to the conference and stay in a local home of (preferably) a Samoan or Maori family, put in a days work at a factory in Penrose (industrial area) and go through Otahuhu to view the prostitutes and glue sniffers (one was killed the opther week) .. closer to home we have the RSA (just down the road from where I write at this very now) you can get chea beer at the place where three people were either gunned to death or bludgeoned and one critically injured): and you might get a visit to various of our jails where (because NZ has the highest per capita violent crime in the Western world and also suicide rate) you might see the results of crime, violence, and then there are the mental institutions (well, actually they've been dismantled so a walk around the Central Business district would suffice...or PERHAPS a visit to the Philosophy Department at A.U.) ...and I dont mean the universities: a stroll down K'Road is also on the menu: then a visit to the big "pie cart" where (in truth) the hamburgers are quite good: this to be followed by a rapid detour throught the art galleries, a three hour poetry reading by myself then a dash back to the boozers and the strip joint where there are women naked in water (a bit like the big glass thing in Locus Solus...)...for women poets there are other diversions (that is male strippers are probably available)...there's dancing at night clubs with women and young (usually - I might have a go one day) who wear ..well they are nearly naked: and take ecstasy....there are also a lot of tansvestites gays etc around Ponsonby K Road...but only 1/7 or 1/17 of the total time at the most can be spent at the Auckland or any other University and not too much talking to "famous" New Zealand literarty people, or "hushed" readings, and no visits to Queenstown (as I've never been there and believe its a terrible place full of thousands of corrupt tourists and also mosquito-ridden and the mountains are just like mountains in Canada probably).... So that should be on in the near future. Regards, Richard. PS Topic...anything will do, any drivel about literature or politics sex, pig farming, or whatever... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 5:33 PM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality) > > I just > > did some time at the county work center and we fought over whther to watch > > WWF or Jerry Springer! > > > WWF!!! hands down. > > You people are so funny -- is there a convention or something for this list? > Do we all get together at some point? > > -Aaron > > > p.s. really, is there? ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:36:51 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sarah Mangold Subject: New Bird Dog Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit www.birddogmagazine.com Bird Dog, a journal of innovative writing and art: collaborations, interviews, collage, poetry, poetics, long poems, reviews, graphs, charts, short fiction, non-fiction, cross genre... Bird Dog is published bi-annually in winter and summer. 8 1/2 x 11, black & white, stapled. Subscriptions $12.00 for two issues. Individual copies $6. Checks payable to Sarah Mangold. Submissions for Issue 2 should be received by June 15, 2002. Bird Dog 1819 18th Ave Seattle, WA 98122 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:00:29 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: WCW query answer from L.Z. Book. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Its in Mark Scroggin's book about paul Zukofsky which I just completed : a great book: here it is: My heart rouses thinking to bring you news of something that concerns you and concerns many men. Look at what passes for the new. You will not find it there but in despised poems. It is difficult to get the news from poems yet men die miserably evry day for lack of what is found there. -Wilinas Carlos Wiliams "Pictures from Brueghel" 162-62 This is the heading or the quote that prefaces the final chapter "A Poemical Conclusion (Toward) A Poetry of Knowledge" taht I tto k from "Louis Zukofsky and the Poetry of Knowledge." That is an interesting study of Zukofsky and his poetics versus Pound. Stevens Williams and such as the Language poets and Ronald Johnson and also John Taggart. "what is found there" is what? Maybe insights into compassion, truth telling, being "reality": one would hope for example that poetry helps in some way to "intensify life" .... William's "die miserably" might be compared to something I read years ago about Chess: "To die without having played Chess is [analagous to] dying without ever hearing music." But then maybe its to die without "hearing" or "seeing" what is deep in words.... Scroggins's point in this last chapter about poetry as a form of "telling" or conveying "knowledge" indicates the "musical" (not stricly in the literal sense of mimesis) but in the "fugal" form and structure and uses (in this chapter) the example of "Mantis" which is in Sestina form...but there is a commentary (by Zukofsky) which is in effect part of a single poem..Mantis and The Commentary... and that, by drawing attention to the form and the "act of making" moves the poem more greatly into the light so to speak. But I am probably not giving a very good picture of the book: its a very extensive book and well written. In passing, I would be interested inothers of that series. regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan C Golding" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 6:14 PM Subject: WCW query > Can anyone remember where the famous (except, obviously, to me, right > now) WCW passage "you cannot get the news from poems" etc. comes from? > > B/C is fine, and thanks. > > Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 21:04:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan C Golding Subject: WCW Query again Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey, Chris and Tim-- If it's possible to pull my post from yesterday, "WCW Query," can you please do that? Sorry to be a pain. I've gotten it answered. If not, can you please post this follow-up: Thanks for all responses to my WCW query. I'd thought the passage in question was from "Asphodel" myself, but just couldn't find it with my bleary 1 a.m. eyes. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:32:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Berda'awat, biar-lah hitam; mandi, biar-lah basah. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Berda'awat, biar-lah hitam; mandi, biar-lah basah. If you get inked, get black; if you bathe, get wet. (Malay proverb, from Winstedt, A Simple Malay Reader) If you write, write to the fullest; if you burn, conflagrate; if you swim, dive. If you get inked, get black: write into the maelstrom, conflagrate. If you bathe, breathe, get wet, drown; if you drink, drown; if you write, write down with bodies floating in the stream of stories. If you drown, you drown; if you write, you're written. Write and you drown; if you get ink, your lungs fill with darkness: black ink, and you get black. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 18:59:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Leonard Brink Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dick.tylr says: > your > country is run by homicidal nutcakes planning more nuclear usage... Well, that's democracy for you. But as a country that is actually engaged with the world we have larger issues right now than say, being jealous of New Zealand, or raping sheep. Perhaps you've heard... ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 14:04:26 -0500 Reply-To: WHITEBOX@EARTHLINK.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WHITE BOX Organization: WHITE BOX Subject: John Weber at WHITE BOX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please join us at WHITE BOX for... A CONVERSATION WITH JOHN WEBER TUESDAY, MARCH 19TH AT 7:30PM With over four decades of experience in the art world as a remarkable gallerist John Weber will converse, reminisce, speculate and theorize about his experience with the gallery and his artists, projecting his views on the current state of art and what it may lead to in the futureÖ For more information, please contact us at WHITE BOX 525 WEST 26TH STREET NEW YORK, NY 10001 212.714.2347 WWW.WHITEBOXNY.ORG ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 21:04:49 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: working class poetry and The Myth of Revolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Ron Silliman wrote: > To confuse those people with $150K networking consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty incoherent picture.< (It may be a sign of my own creeping conservatism, but I personally feel uncomfortable with gratuitous vilification of financial industry professionals. As if there were no James Sherry. And now especially, after the wholesale slaughter of them in the tens of hundreds and the leveling force of the Grim Reaper's scythe has painfully revealed them to be/to have been little more than workers in their own right. But that's not my point here . . .) Isn't all this discussion of class and class obligations within poetry missing its propelling factor, without any corollary sense of ~revolution~ and the poet-revolutionary? Any attempted analysis of class, even from a rightist consumer-exploitative stance, has its basis and origin in, of course, Marx's class theories. And that Marxist, post-Marxist or quasi-Marxist always took its motivating force aginst class from variously manifested versions of "revolution." I have recently been reinvestigating Surrealism, . . . which partly lost its saliency because the "engagement" [pronounced "on-gozh-mon-t'"] of Existentialist commitment segued better into the concrete '68 revolutions, . . . and its genuine, troubled political dimension: Breton co-authored a paper with Trotsky, many Surrealists "defected" from the Surrealist Revolution into Communist Party membership, etc.; so, it's much on mine my mind how, where, and when both real collaboration with "revolutionary" political movements and social forces or a ~myth~ of revolution fuelled the XXth century avant-garde we're the inheritors of. The line forward from Surrealism and the October Revolution is fairly easy to draw: Surrealism out of the more short-lived, nihilistic and less articulated Dada forward into Lettrism, Situationism, and perhaps Lacan and post-structuralism. But I find myself faltering --- I need more research or education into the pre-history of Modernism --- in trying to trail the line backward chronologically. The Modernist precursors, the Impressionists in painting and Les Symbolistes in poetry, although formally often continuous with the Cubisms and -isms that flowed out of or were spawned in reaction against them, on the face of things do not exactly appear to be ~revolutionary~ in the same sense: rather, the Manet depictions of men in waist coats and top hats as the ~celebration~ of haute bougeoisie, the Monet leisure, etc., and, in poetry, end-of-an-era decadence rather than a generative "revolution,"--- a decadence, albeit, whose obscurantism remains larger the prototype and starting point of Modernist and post-modern obscurantisms, including the current "asyntactical." However, despite the occasional formal resemblances, --- and I know that here and there there must indeed have been counter examples of sympathies for the emergent splinter group pre-October Socialists and utopians that I just am uneducated about, such as (?) the younger American Whitman or Hawthorne's and the Transcendalists' Fourier communes --- these precursors, again, rather than being anti-"capitalist" seem to typify an ~epitome~ of capital, and their aesthetic revolution to be on the plane of, say, innovation in the fashion design of ~haute couture~ clothes, glass stemware (Lalique, Tiffany), and such. The ~ultra-moderne~ rather than Modernist "revolution." For want of a better word, I'm thinking of that high capitalist ~semblable~ of later anti-capitalist avant-garde as "High Style." (Maybe it's a Mannerism.) Regardless, it represents a legitimate moment where formalist relatedness conceals political antithesis, and demonstrates a Modernism that was fully dedicated to capital, rather than class revolution. (And there was pre-Modernist or even anti-Modernist, non avant-garde revolutionary art: the realist classicism of Jean-Louis David's ~Tennis Court Oath,~ etc., which commemorated political upheavals and ~coups d'etat.~) And, --- pessimistically? --- I wonder if we haven't come full cycle and, fin-de-siecle again, at the turning point of both centuries, whether our particular historical branch --- "hippy" revolutionary Beat > Black Mountain > Language --- hasn't had the revolutionary myth effectively drain out of it, --- so that our current uneasy condition is a ~vestigial~ lip service to "revolution" but a reversion to High Style "bourgeois"/middle class conservatism. The discrepancy between the lived careerism and MFA-ing of poetry, the (first generation) New York School buttoning up back into shocking neckties and blazers versus the Beat dishevelment, (the journal ~Fence~?) --- aren't we in a position like the earliest Modernists, living "the good life," fully trafficking in the pleasures of capital, and ~only~ observing a superficial (hypocritical?) ~trace~ pseudo-revolutionariness in formal aesthetic experimentalism (an experimentalism that has, meanwhile, obviously become its own paradoxical conservatisim of an "alternative tradition," perhaps in fact the ~sole~ keepers of tradition)? The point being that, without revolution, including a revolutionary ideology for poetry (~Revolution dans la Langue Poetique~?), class is merely class,--- and discussion about its frictions is just moot, neither here nor there: it's all missing its necessary leverage ("revolution"). ...................................................... Incidentally,--- (Any "revolutionary" agenda, of course, is currently badly compromised or stifled, like the tepid street protests against the recent World Economic Forum, by revolution's indistinguishability from terrorism, or, for that matter, berserk schizophrenic violence [the newspaper-certified "schizophrenic" shooting up a post office, and Baden Meinhof-ish shooting up a post office], and the reasonable-seeming total clamp-down of new social controls and revoked civil liberties.) (. . . And something should later be said about "Drug Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary avant-gardism.) :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 13:38:34 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: * Stephen RODEFER & Chris STROFFOLINO, Sat March 16, 7:30 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives presents: An evening with STEPHEN RODEFER & CHRIS STROFFOLINO Saturday, March 16 7:30 pm, $7 donation @ The Unitarian Center 1187 Franklin (at Geary) STEPHEN RODEFER makes a rare return visit to the Bay Area, from his current digs in Paris ("Of all the most intensely American of poets, Rodefer is the most European" --Rod Mengham). Two large collections of new poetry appeared during 2000, Mon Canard (The Figures) and Left Under a Cloud (Alfred David Editions, UK)--each incorporating the long poem Erasers. He is author of over twenty books of poetry, prose, translations (notably the best Villon in English), plays, essays, fiction. "Stephen Rodefer and his writing are, as we say in French, a force of nature= =2E" --Pierre Alferi. What person deserves another's love? What person does not. (from Erasers) CHRIS STROFFOLINO's striking new collection of essays on contemporary poets and poetry, Spin Cycle (Spuyten Duyvil) follows his book of poetry Stealer's Wheel (Hard Press). Recently moved to Oakland from New York City (after Pennsylvania and Albany, NY), he teaches at St. Mary's College, in Orinda, CA. "Chris Stroffolino's poems are dizzying in their rapid fire statements and metaphors. . . . Stroffolino is an original and he's brilliant." --James Tate. "Stroffolino harks back, his poems resonate with history, alive and unending thanks to a Shakespearean Padovan Pennsylvanian mix phenomenal in its lusty brilliance. Tucked back into our bodies by his laughter, we're at last ready to agree 'it's the mind now.' I don't think I'm 'too close to the source to see the image'--to hail this poet as among the foremost of the young who are already giving striking form to a generation's perplexities." --David Bromige You can't avoid what you can't control. Even if it's not a blackout, A candle won't envy a lava lamp. . . . (from Stealer's Wheel) THE UNITARIAN CENTER is located at 1187 Franklin Street at the corner of Geary on-street parking opens up at 7:00 pm from downtown SF, take the Geary bus to Franklin * * * Coming up: March 21 an evening with British poets Alan Halsey, Geraldine Monk, & Martin Corless-Smith March 23 Cecil Taylor, plus Tony Seymour & Blake More in tribute to Beat generation poet Bob Kaufman April 3 Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover April 11 Jay Wright April 18 Kevin Davies & Kevin Killian April 23 Los Delicados April 25 Kazuko Shiraishi & Wadada Leo Smith: an evening of poetry & music May 2 Murat Nemet-Nejat, an evening of contemporary Turkish poetry May 2 Student Awards Reading May 9 Bob Harrison & Andrew Levy, CRAYON reading w/ contributors: Chris Daniels (reading Fernando Pessoa), Jean Day, Hung Q. Tu, & Tsering Wangmo Dhompa Details at http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit/readings/readings.htm#current_season =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2002 23:55:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Fried Boog Tomatoes/NYC tonight MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please forward _____________ Boog City Presents Fried Boog Tomatoes "Works by and of the South" the C-Note 157 Avenue C (10th St) NYC Friday March 15, 7 p.m. $5 with poems and songs from Lee Ann Brown and Ethan Fugate and music by Aaron Kiely, Joe Maynard, and John Wright. hosted by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum For further information, call 212-206-8899 or email editor@boogcity.com _________ David A. Kirschenbaum, editor Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 Tel: 212-206-8899 Fax: 212-206-9982 editor@boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 01:24:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: d.a. levy 60th birthday party MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit d.a. levy, the Cleveland poet and publisher at the forefront of the mimeo revolution of the sixties, would have turned 60 this coming October 29. To honor levy's life and work, we're throwing him a posthumous birthday party at Bob Holman's Bowery Poetry Club in New York City on Saturday November 2. The event will include --a marathon reading of levy's work --panel discussions --a small press book fair and workshop --screening of Kon Petrochuk's levy documentary "If I Scratch, If I Write" We are looking for papers relating to the following topics: a) Mimeo revolution b) Cleveland poetry scene in the ’60s Please send papers by July 1, with a one-page abstract to: David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 Attn: d.a. levy at 60 Publications will include: --Issue 20 of Boog City, d.a. levy at 60 submission deadline, Friday October 11 --Gary Sullivan's d.a. levy comic book --"A Belated Touché for d.a. levy: New and Selected Poems" by Kent Taylor for more information about this event, email editor@boogcity.com for more information on levy, visit the d.a. levy home page: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/dalevy/dalevy.htm -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 T: (212) 206-8899 F: (212) 206-9982 editor@boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:24:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be In-Reply-To: <176.4d374cc.29bd0d4a@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed check out Blue Collar Review. Gene At 02:26 PM 3/10/02 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/10/02 11:45:13 AM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: > ><< In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:29 PM, Austinwja@AOL.COM writes: > > >Murat >> > > > >Apologies for inserting myself here. Seems to me that poetry is > economically > >viable, in the academy. Anthologies, some of them, sell quite well. And > >many poets make a living traveling from reading to reading...... So long as >poetry is bound and > >delivered between two covers with price tag, it's a product, right? The > >situation is not all that dissimilar to that of serious (classical?) music > >and jazz. Best, Bill > > > >Bill, > >You touched important issues. No, I don't think the academy is a >"compensation" for poems. How many of the poets would get a job if they >represented themselves to the search committees without a Phd? In fact, the >academy reflects the relation between one's work and who is paying for it. In >subtle ways, it forces the poet to write ways which the literary environment >of that instotutions considers "good" poetry, "experimental" poetry, etc. A >genuinely new poetry, in that sense, may endenger one academic career. > >It is true that anthologies (and critical writings which quote poems) sell >quite well. But that money goes mostly to publishers, not the poets. As Ed >Foster pointed out, a poem is worth more as a quotation than as a poem. > >Making money out of the reading of one's poems is the nearest thing to one's >being paid for the poetic labor. But how many poets can make a living out of >these readings? Generously, the average payment for a reading is 150/250 >dollars (Allen Ginsberg made I think about 2000). One needs at least >20,000.00 a year (in the States) to live. How many of us can give, let's say, >100 readings a year. I would go crazy, and nobody would ask many of us to >give that many anyway. What about the time we spent writing the poems? >Besides, if one gave a hundred readings, what kind of poems will one end up >writing, both to satisfy that schedule and draw the audience for it? >What you say is viable for a specific kind of performance poetry -like jazz- >where the poet improvises around themes during the performance, where the >writing and performing of the poem are one. > >The point I am making is that for whom the poem is being writing is crucial >in determining the form and content (indirectly the class) of the poem. And, >since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a >product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very often >must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to write >his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive >activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, >compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, not a >craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel. >This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of >economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet in >the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reason, >like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or >alcoholics or cocaine addicts. > >Ciao >Murat > >> > >Murat, most of what you say here makes sense to me. As I said in my last >post, few poets achieve the status of a Ginsberg (who died a millionaire). >But I think you're splitting hairs on the product/process thing. Music is >quite obviously a process, but it is also packaged and sold. If the >distinction rests on whether or not the artists can anticipate financial >reward, then most creative activities do not yield products. Most >architects, for example, never see their designs gracing a skyline, nor do >they get paid very much for them. They are more likely to provide grunt work >for some firm. But that doesn't change the fact that a skyscraper is a >product. Likewise, most poets cannot expect much financial reward. They >create because they are driven through the process by their own talent and >interests -- but the poem is nevertheless a product which can be delivered >within two covers, or on a screen. Creating the product involves process, of >course, as does experiencing (reading) the product, much as designing the >skyscraper, or walking through it's rooms and hallways, does. I think you >may be setting two things against each other that are not actually in >conflict. Poetry is a product that is not all that welcome in our society, >unlike in some other societies. But some products sell, and some don't. > >Would you claim, for instance, that the writing of novels does not involve a >product because most novelists do not make money and novels in the main are >not economically viable? A few novels make big bucks, right? Publishers are >willing to dump a lot of this product on the market in the hope that some of >it will sell. Some poetry does sell. Determining the product nature of a >text according to how well it sells seems to put the cart before the horse. >If it's available for sale, or consumption in any way, it's a product. We >might even argue that the poet who stands before an audience is a product >generated by his texts, and at the same time a process that must be >experienced in time. Best, Bill > >WilliamJamesAustin.com >KojaPress.com >Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:27:22 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality In-Reply-To: <001901c1c898$ba8be8c0$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed too bad for your daughter gene At 07:04 PM 3/10/02 -0600, you wrote: >it might help clarify things to distinguish between working class and the >working class ethic. I have a prospective son-in-law who subscribes to the >'ethic' that a woman's place is in the house but time will tell if he works >and brings home the bacon? > >tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 09:15:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Toni Simon or Nick Piombino Subject: Poetics List Schadenfreude-the Agony and the Ecstacy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" -- ---- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Jullich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 12:40 AM Subject: "meltdowns, ... gun-shy, ... clashes, ... unease, distrust" > Mark Prejsnar wrote: > > > my guess, . . . 2. a checkered history of flame > wars and meltdowns make people here gun-shy about > issues that might generate ego clashes, and it > appears that talking about the thing we share most > intensely does just that; ... this second point > interests > me very much; because i suspect it says something > about the feel that the poetry community has right > now: one of unease, distrust, and a lack of respect > and supportiveness beyong small personal circles.. < > > > Mark, > > As I back-channeled you, the Buffalo Poetics List > meltdown of this past summer had disastrous > consequences, nationally, in the distrust and unease I > believe you're correct in diagnosing. > > But, maybe more significantly, that feverish pitch > that things had broken past then coicided with > > 9/11, > > and a whole other level of paranoias and battle > fatigue compounded all the poet-inflicted wounds. > > . . . Which brings us to the more serious and > forboding omission on-List and in our poetries right > now: > > the failure of our movements' modes not only to > incorporate incumbent issues of concern such as class > anxieties --- a bit of a red herring at the moment --- > but the more critical pressures that being at war and > recession and anthrax insanity, etc., exerts on us. > > "Poets are the antennae of the race,"--- in which case > at least the heated prose letter-writing dialogue > on-List betrays the massive avoidance that the > collective psyche is exerting, a virtually schizoid > shut-down denial and foreclosure of the most obvious > challenge poetry is now facing: war, and whether our > mode is elastic enough to in any way confront these > devastations. > > The "denial" is glaring. > > The burden on poets and artists is doubly difficult, > because we feel in some way that our poetry is > ~supposed to~ be the channel or voice for the > collective consciousness' current damaged > vulnerability--- and yet poetic "affect" (emotion) is > treated as an embarassing archaicism that's been > mocked on this List. > > More humiliating, too, that poetries which our > sophistication (indoctrination, education) considers > too risibly unmentionable, such as the "hackneyed," > "trite" poem that the 14 year old and 6 year old sons > of the Twin Towers casualty read this morning at the > six month memorial at "Ground Zero," ~are~ succeeding > in consummating the national focus. > > We're going through something that for us as protected > innocents is as rupturing or worse than what our > parents and grandparents went through with the two > World Wars,--- and that battle fatigue produced > Modernism: see Surrealism hatching out of Breton's > transcriptions of the doughboys' nerve gas delirium, > see Beckett's buffo quadruplegics in baskets and > couples in garbage cans as living memory (objective > correlative) of the war-amputated, Existentialism, and > on and on. The war poetries of the twentieth century > have always been completely opaque and shut off to > us/me: Paul Eluard, the artilleries glimpsed passingly > in Reverdy's cubism, . . . Tellingly, under now > discussion now, not the Whitman poet of the > battlefield but a Whitman re-written and neutralized > into a question of grammar, too. > > A week or two after 9/11 I was in a NYC basement bar > reading, and, of the two readers, one of the List's > and community's more illustrious young mavericks was > reading punning, play-on-word, asyntactical "approved' > poetry, and the other, a more mature and seasoned > woman poet, was reading still post-modern but more > body-based, aggrieved semi-discursivity, which a poet > whispered to me was based on her experience with her > child suffering from cancer,--- and the first, School > of Buffalo poet sounded unbearably in bad taste, > beyond irrelevant, irresponsible, and the latter the > grounding of "affect" and hurtable flesh that was so > deeply needed. > > It may take decades for poetry and art to work these > repressed traumas out into some form. The predominant > obscurantist mode we've inheritted since the '80s does > not seem capable of meeting the challenge of so Grand > and intolerable a Theme. > > I just thought your brave candor worth underscoring by > pointing out the invisible elephant in the middle of > the living room that the dysfunctional family isn't > talking about and ~can't~ talk about because our > poetic language has had "content" qua content censored > out of it. > > This is what's called a "crisis" of representation (or > representability). > > Personally, I'm looking backwards, to how the > Modernist generations worked out these dilemmas of > disjunctiveness and body bags. > > Thanks, Mark. > > Jeffrey > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! I've read these well-written and interesting messages a number of times, Jeffrey, (and Mark), and while I agree that you've specified an important issue- namely the "problem" of representation for those who practice non-representational art forms- the underlying schadenfreude in the crocodile tears shed about this issue, for me, abets the value in whatever points you are making. One of the things I most enjoy about abstract art is that by avoiding concreteness and literality it is sometimes able to avoid reflecting,and thereby directly participating in and reproducing, the overshadowing sadomasochism of this period and age. This,of course,does not stop anyone from rediscovering and reproducing it by means of critical response-since in this medium what you see- and what you don't see- is what you get. Nick Piombino > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 14:05:11 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Fw: Announcement: Cork Poetry Festival MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I thought I'd forward this for Trevor, who's not on this list at present. I was just talking to him on the phone & he tells me that Tom Raworth is confirmed for the event. -- I was at the Cork festival in 1999 & can say that it's a worthwhile & entertaining event--great city to visit, too (I recall going up the bell tower in Shandon with cris cheek, Keith Tuma & Karen Mac Cormack so cris could taperecord the bells ringing for use in his performance later in the festival...). -- all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://pages.sprint.ca/ndorward/files/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trevor Joyce" Sent: Saturday, March 09, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Announcement: Cork Poetry Festival (Apologies for cross-posting) This is by way of preliminary notice to listees who might be interested, that the Cork Poetry Festival will be held on Friday May 10th and Saturday May 11th next. We're still fixing up the list of this year's participants, but it's probably not too difficult to construct some sort of a picture from the names of some of those inveigled into taking part in previous years. We've had readings from Tony Baker, Ken Bolton, Ric Caddell, cris cheek, Catherine Daly, Fergal Gaynor, Matthew Geden, Harry Gilonis, John Goodby, Randolph Healy, Fanny Howe, Trevor Joyce, Judy Kravis, Karen MacCormack, Billy Mills, Tom Raworth, Maurice Scully, Robert Sheppard, Michael Smith, Geoffrey Squires and Catherine Walsh, and papers from Alex Davis, Harry Gilonis, John Goodby, Romana Huk, Trevor Joyce, Karen MacCormack, Jim Mays, Billy Mills, Robert Sheppard, Keith Tuma. (Apologies to anyone I've left out: brains addled) So if you're going to be in this part of the world in early May, or could be here with a little organization, what more enticement do you need? . . . . other than concrete details, which will be supplied as they become available . . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 13:15:46 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William J Allegrezza Subject: moria and cfp MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii www.moriapoetry.com The next issue of _moria_ is online. It includes poems by: stephen ratcliffe, vernon frazer, thomas fink, tomar lichtash, costas nakassis, eddie watkins, abhijit mitra, curtis stephenson, jennifer renee-cleaver page, jukka-pekka kervinen, steven iglesias. As usuall I am looking for poetry for the upcoming issues. I am also looking for theory articles on poetics or contemporary experimental poetry. Bill Allegrezza www.moriapoetry.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 15:38:18 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: Re: working class poetry and The Myth of Revolution In-Reply-To: <20020315050449.44383.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For what it's worth, Jacques-Louis David was the avant-garde, recognized as such at the time and by art historians since. For what he rebelled against, think Fragonard or Vigee-Lebrun. And the impressionists (and post-impressionists), tho some were not only haut bourgeois but pretty repulsive politically (Degas), were not just revolutionaries in their art but laid the groundwork for future political revolutionaries by eliminating the genre painting as genre (sorry, but that's our language) by making the everyday, and it's the everyday of all classes, almost the only subject for painting, to the virtual exclusion of everything but landscapes, still-lifes and formal portraits. The revolution was in the change of focus and practice, which to my mind is a lot more of a political statement than painting as manifesto. Mark At 09:04 PM 3/14/2002 -0800, you wrote: >Ron Silliman wrote: > > > To confuse those people with $150K networking >consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan >to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before >Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think >of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty >incoherent picture.< > > >(It may be a sign of my own creeping conservatism, but >I personally feel uncomfortable with gratuitous >vilification of financial industry professionals. As >if there were no James Sherry. And now especially, >after the wholesale slaughter of them in the tens of >hundreds and the leveling force of the Grim Reaper's >scythe has painfully revealed them to be/to have been >little more than workers in their own right. But >that's not my point here . . .) > > >Isn't all this discussion of class and class >obligations within poetry missing its propelling >factor, without any corollary sense of ~revolution~ >and the poet-revolutionary? Any attempted analysis of >class, even from a rightist consumer-exploitative >stance, has its basis and origin in, of course, Marx's >class theories. And that Marxist, post-Marxist or >quasi-Marxist always took its motivating force aginst >class from variously manifested versions of >"revolution." > >I have recently been reinvestigating Surrealism, . . . >which partly lost its saliency because the >"engagement" [pronounced "on-gozh-mon-t'"] of >Existentialist commitment segued better into the >concrete '68 revolutions, . . . and its genuine, >troubled political dimension: Breton co-authored a >paper with Trotsky, many Surrealists "defected" from >the Surrealist Revolution into Communist Party >membership, etc.; so, it's much on mine my mind how, >where, and when both real collaboration with >"revolutionary" political movements and social forces >or a ~myth~ of revolution fuelled the XXth century >avant-garde we're the inheritors of. > >The line forward from Surrealism and the October >Revolution is fairly easy to draw: Surrealism out of >the more short-lived, nihilistic and less articulated >Dada forward into Lettrism, Situationism, and perhaps >Lacan and post-structuralism. But I find myself >faltering --- I need more research or education into >the pre-history of Modernism --- in trying to trail >the line backward chronologically. The Modernist >precursors, the Impressionists in painting and Les >Symbolistes in poetry, although formally often >continuous with the Cubisms and -isms that flowed out >of or were spawned in reaction against them, on the >face of things do not exactly appear to be >~revolutionary~ in the same sense: rather, the Manet >depictions of men in waist coats and top hats as the >~celebration~ of haute bougeoisie, the Monet leisure, >etc., and, in poetry, end-of-an-era decadence rather >than a generative "revolution,"--- a decadence, >albeit, whose obscurantism remains larger the >prototype and starting point of Modernist and >post-modern obscurantisms, including the current >"asyntactical." > >However, despite the occasional formal resemblances, >--- and I know that here and there there must indeed >have been counter examples of sympathies for the >emergent splinter group pre-October Socialists and >utopians that I just am uneducated about, such as (?) >the younger American Whitman or Hawthorne's and the >Transcendalists' Fourier communes --- these >precursors, again, rather than being anti-"capitalist" >seem to typify an ~epitome~ of capital, and their >aesthetic revolution to be on the plane of, say, >innovation in the fashion design of ~haute couture~ >clothes, glass stemware (Lalique, Tiffany), and such. > > >The ~ultra-moderne~ rather than Modernist >"revolution." > >For want of a better word, I'm thinking of that high >capitalist ~semblable~ of later anti-capitalist >avant-garde as "High Style." (Maybe it's a >Mannerism.) Regardless, it represents a legitimate >moment where formalist relatedness conceals political >antithesis, and demonstrates a Modernism that was >fully dedicated to capital, rather than class >revolution. > > >(And there was pre-Modernist or even anti-Modernist, >non avant-garde revolutionary art: the realist >classicism of Jean-Louis David's ~Tennis Court Oath,~ >etc., which commemorated political upheavals and >~coups d'etat.~) > > >And, --- pessimistically? --- I wonder if we haven't >come full cycle and, fin-de-siecle again, at the >turning point of both centuries, whether our >particular historical branch --- "hippy" revolutionary >Beat > Black Mountain > Language --- hasn't had the >revolutionary myth effectively drain out of it, --- so >that our current uneasy condition is a ~vestigial~ lip >service to "revolution" but a reversion to High Style >"bourgeois"/middle class conservatism. The >discrepancy between the lived careerism and MFA-ing of >poetry, the (first generation) New York School >buttoning up back into shocking neckties and blazers >versus the Beat dishevelment, (the journal ~Fence~?) >--- aren't we in a position like the earliest >Modernists, living "the good life," fully trafficking >in the pleasures of capital, and ~only~ observing a >superficial (hypocritical?) ~trace~ >pseudo-revolutionariness in formal aesthetic >experimentalism (an experimentalism that has, >meanwhile, obviously become its own paradoxical >conservatisim of an "alternative tradition," perhaps >in fact the ~sole~ keepers of tradition)? > >The point being that, without revolution, including a >revolutionary ideology for poetry (~Revolution dans la >Langue Poetique~?), class is merely class,--- and >discussion about its frictions is just moot, neither >here nor there: it's all missing its necessary >leverage ("revolution"). > >...................................................... > >Incidentally,--- > >(Any "revolutionary" agenda, of course, is currently >badly compromised or stifled, like the tepid street >protests against the recent World Economic Forum, by >revolution's indistinguishability from terrorism, or, >for that matter, berserk schizophrenic violence [the >newspaper-certified "schizophrenic" shooting up a post >office, and Baden Meinhof-ish shooting up a post >office], and the reasonable-seeming total clamp-down >of new social controls and revoked civil liberties.) > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary >avant-gardism.) :) > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage >http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:45:49 -0500 Reply-To: WHITEBOX@EARTHLINK.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WHITE BOX Organization: WHITE BOX Subject: DOGHOUSE for WHITE BOX's RUN MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Attention ! Please Post ! CALL FOR ENTRIES Dog Enthusiasts! Artists! Architects! In May 2002 WHITE BOX offers itself to the dogs. The gallery becomes an indoor dog run, a playground of art. Dogs, trainers, canine historians, psycho-veterinarians and dog/art enthusiasts will listen to wolves howl, hear lectures on separation anxiety, parade around the arts district of Chelsea and lovingly reflect upon THE IDEAL URBAN CANINE ABODE. White Box + The Run present the First Annual New York City URBAN DOGHOUSE DESIGN COMPETITION ï The doghouse should meet the needs of the client (urban dog) while addressing utilitarian concerns, scale and expression. ï Entries should consist of models and/or drawings as needed to illustrate the proposal (models should be no larger than 2 feet x 2 feet x 2 feet ). Please attach a written description of your submission (no longer than one page). Include contact information. ï Refrain from submitting any entries that require a monitor or special equipment for viewing. ï All entries will be displayed at White Box from 25 May through 1 June 2002 during The Run. ï The gallery space will be open to canines during this exhibition, and therefore all models should either be dogstrong or equipped with hooks to be suspended above dog height. ï Jurors include: Janet Cross, architect; Anthony Haden-Guest, author; Eleanor Heartney, critic - Art in America; David Lieberman, architect/professor - University of Toronto; Dennis Oppenheim, artist; Juan Puntes, director - White Box. ï Submit entries 14 May through 21 May only to: White Box 525 West 26th Street (street level) New York, NY 10001, Attention: The Run. (If delivering materials in person, drop-off Tuesday through Saturday 12 noon - 5pm only.) ï With each submission, please attach a $50 entry fee (checks payable to White Box Ltd). This fee is a tax-deductible donation that helps support our 501 (c) (3) non-profit arts organization. ï Materials will not be returned unless return postage and proper packaging is included with the submission. Submissions may be retrieved from White Box 4 - 5 June between 12 noon and 5pm only. ï WINNING DESIGN WILL BE COMMISSIONED ï With questions, contact: whitebox@earthlink.net or the_run@hotmail.com WHITE BOX 525 WEST 26TH STREET NEW YORK, NY 10001 WWW.WHITEBOXNY.ORG ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 22:15:20 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pete Balestrieri Subject: Publishing on Demand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Can anyone with first-hand or even second-hand knowledge recommend a reliable publish-on-demand company? Thanks, Pete __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:40:24 +0100 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Avant symposium MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On July 26-27, 2002 there will be an Avant symposium in Columbus Ohio This is shaping up to be a major event - so far we also have committments to come from Sheila Murphy, Bob Grumman, Richard Kostelanetz, Jim Leftwich, Thomas Taylor, Mike Basinski, David Baratier, John Byrum, Scott Helmes, K. S. Ernst, Ivan Arguelles, Lewis LaCook, Ficus strangulensis, and others, including 2 big collectors: Marvin Sackner and Bob Jackson. If you are interested in participating please e-mail me back with the info needed, as writ below by John M. Bennett, curator of the A-G library: let me know by April 19 the title of your presentation and a brief description of what you're planning to do. If it's "just" a reading, say "reading". Please let me know your technical requirements also (slide projector, video, Flash, etc.) At present, it looks like 30-minute blocks of time for each presentation may be possible, but that could change. The schedule is shaping up this way: Fri. evening July 26 we'll have a reception hosted by the Friends of the Libraries, and Marvin Sackner will give a keynote address. Sat. July 27 we'll have the presentations, round table, a tour of the Rare Book and Avant Writing Collections, and then dinner at an Italian restaurant downtown. We are planning a round-table discussion on collaboration; if you want to participate in that, please be prepared to make a short 3-minute statement/rant/comment for openers. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 01:45:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the internet radio MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - the internet radio radio (#695) is owned by Nikuko (#934). ye@tcp.com) Aliases: radio on. Key: (None.) ntro' for help. Obvious Verbs: g*et/t*ake radio d*rop/th*row radio gi*ve/ha*nd radio to v*iew radio im/tf-lib/stdlib.tf. dis*play radio im/.tfrc. connect radio to im/tiny.world. @webpref*erences radio look radio @examine radio Cyber Media Culnte nos dirigimos a vd: UIB (3909) Alan, Get Printer Ink Fo Use COnnect username passw "Rick Baraniuk" <>, *** Connected ***mail! From Alan S Bodeem in Do Come In and Look Around! Hey! See theindow]ec's Norton AntiVirus 2001 product You see Bedei, #1, Girl, Boy, Bodi, Bodi," , >most in this forum. radio here. "RA The Obvious exits: [root] to myour darkness multi trace writingo lsnl lookecur radio Bodee ma [Closing "sen a mj tf-lib zummer.txtrkb@pola CDROM of collected work 1994-200 Pine finished -- Closed fold lisp notes thingST 2002 ha "Pundeer, A To: mediament lynx_bookmarks.html phoenix.hlp tiny.worldall statistics are activated. k32% m I parentheses|numbers] [all] [ranges] look radio look radio _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:28:53 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think she's a good poet, possibly not "great" if that term has relevance: I wouldnt say "sucks" I think I "looked" at or "locked" onto her writing because her name came up in critical discussions re John Ashbery (and possibly Scott Hamilton mentined her some time back). I think if we are talking ability she has it but it is (sometimes) something like Merrill's extreme cleverness: or the difficulty of her poetry is in the "argument" of her poems which seem to be as complex as some of Auden's (earlier? I'm not sure I havent read deeply enough of Auden...but his later poems are excrutiatingly clever and sometimes more, but lack "depth" (not always)) while Jorie has some quite brilliant ideas and poems and sometimes evrything seems to search toward a "great poem" ...but the other problem for me - if its a problem - is that say versus some of the Language poets or some of the post-post moderns or more improvisatory poets, her work looks tame. This doesnt invalidate it...just puts her in one of the many rooms of the mansion: I mean I read Rita Dove but (I dont want to sound petulant or arrogant or nasty) she or Maya Angelou I dont think will ever teach me much (and maybe neither will Graham): all the modernists including Pound WCW L Z and Stein and many others, back to Whitman and in England Browning and Swinburne and Hopkins, Emily Dickinson, Olson and Creeley (I was reading a brilliant sequence of (semi-disjucntive pieces the other day) even Ammons and John Ashbery, the Language poets, Prynne etal of the Grossetest, Iain Sinclair (the dark) and Peter Reading, David Jones and even Geoffrey Hill and off shoots or some more recent poets and poets many on this List and others experimenting and testing etc but Angelou I cant (maybe I am not "tuned into her" and maybe that's the same for Dove)...Jorie Graham is a more complex and "intellectual" poet (key word_ more_) but unlike Zukofsky or a more recent poet as Ronald Johnson (I only know what brief things I've seen of him and the discussion in Mark Scroggin's book on L.Z.) .... its the problem of better or different but L Zukofsky (despite his intricacy and opacity (or partly becuase of it)) one can read or "hear" the music ( a higher language: a "true" poetry ) which is the same for all very significant poets...but I'm not sure taht I want to unravel the complexities of Jorie Graham: but in this I may be wrong..I used a line of hers in my Infinite Poem ...it was something like "the wall of the flesh opened endlessly.." [possibly "the wall opened endlessly" is better - for me I hasten!] and I woudnt just wipe a poet who has the Pulitzer (worry as such prizes are I know) ... (I know I "wiped" Rod McKuen before and that was a bit inconsistent as he is not just a "poet on the page" he's a singer-songster (or maybe that's a bit patronising)) .. its complex and problematic this evaluation of poets: politics, philosophy, yes, even class, gender and one's own personal responses (even moods) come into it: also it might be premature: so many poets have been rubbished, although there have also been many who are "centre-stage" who dont seem (as time passes) to have contributed to the core of the poetic story...this is a quick response ... we should give strong and long attention to all poets of whatever ilk (I think Ron Silliman was right in warning -some time back - of being dismissive of other poets - the point maybe to getting onto what "we" are doing - whoever we are - but, we will always have our evaluations)...maybe sometimes for ourselves to venture down a certain "road" we need to ignore the possibility (for the while) of other, brighter, roads. That is _if_ they are brighter: or ow do we know without a very attentive look? I' just sorting out my own books and I have one by J Graham, so I'll cast my eye across her poems, time permitting.. Some thoughts on this, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading > > April 13 - Jorie Graham, 7:30 p.m. (reception and signing follows) > > > I thought we already decided Jorie Graham sucks? > > Maybe that was another list. > > -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 21:02:19 +1300 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree on the face of it (the phrase sounds ugly to me)..but maybe not if his daughter agrees: they should be when children are young (although these days women an be "at home" but still involved and active in things ...but taken too literally the phrase has right-wing and restrictive overtones. A man's place is also in the home (and both out of the home and going through the home and maybe passed the home)and really the _parents_ place is with the children but in physical location not alll the time and (time permitting) the more diverse and "free" their interests the better it is for the child. (A "dull" house-bound woman is no model for generating independent and happy children). On the face of it the young man sounds reactionary: but he may mean that the roles need some implication of function in the formative years...but in my own daugter's case she is so overwhelmingly inderpendent .. in fact I sold her a piano (when my ex wanted just to donate babies clothes and money and was "shocked" that I wanted to SELL the piano: its good..I got some cash: she knew that it was not a gift weakening her independence) and I'm glad she is continuing work for now (she's "due" in about 31/2 weeks) and also they are both working on their music (violin guitar piano) and I am urging her to keep up creative activities and reading (my ex wife was more into the ("stay at home thing" I think): nor do I interfere in how they want to operate in their lives...it sounds as though Tom Bell's son in law has a coercive approach (and ultimately it will lead to division and unhappiness) which is - yes - its out dated for such countries or places as the US, Europe, Australia nad NZ....and slowly, in the other so called "third world" countries, women will fight for and get independence: that, independence (without a suggestion of family neglect that some people assume goes with it), is essential: "a woman's place is in the home" sounds very reactionary: very unhealthy. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "gene" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 1:27 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > too bad for your daughter > > gene > > > > At 07:04 PM 3/10/02 -0600, you wrote: > >it might help clarify things to distinguish between working class and the > >working class ethic. I have a prospective son-in-law who subscribes to the > >'ethic' that a woman's place is in the house but time will tell if he works > >and brings home the bacon? > > > >tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 18:45:12 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Lewis Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit blasphemy! tell you're mother I said to wash your mouth out with soap! Karen ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 12:13:09 -0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "david.bircumshaw" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Phew! I've been looking at the various twists on this thread with a mixture of annoyance, interest and too a feeling of disempowerment. Now whatever else I am I know for sure that I am 'working-class' insofar as the term has meaning, allowing, as has been rightly pointed out, for the fluidities of boundary in our world. I left school at sixteen, I've never owned a car, I live in a tower-block, I've never been a manager or administrator. Etc. At the same time I write, sometimes on themes that could be thought 'working-class' but not with that label hanging in my mind. I write as one of so many contingent, threatened human beings, beleaguered by the voids of unanswerables yet loving the desperate necessary need for rhythm, form, structure and coherence conjured from their opposites. That matters of 'class' do impinge on the reception, circulation, validation of poetry I have no doubt: living in England it's rather hard not to notice such matters, at the same time I feel very wary of people pasting definition onto working-class poetry. I suspect the desire to 'control' always. And that's all. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England Home Page A Chide's Alphabet Painting Without Numbers http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 11:16:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Eugene Lang College faculty readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My wife Lynda Schor will be reading recent fiction Wednesday evening in a series of three readings by members of the faculty at the Eugene Lang College of the New School University. Here's the line-up: Weds., March 20 6:00 Lynda Schor Henry Shapiro Weds., April 17 6:00 Jan Clausen Jane Lazarre Weds., May 1 6:00 Pablo Medina Jaime Manrique Elana Greenfield All readings @ the Lang Student Center 64 W. 11th St. NYC Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:59:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: julu's difference between ice-hockey and ice-skating with a note on MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - julu's difference between ice-hockey and ice-skating with a note on ice-skating in hockey, the skates almost never leave the ground. in skating, the skates often leave the ground. in hockey, there are no toe picks. in skating, there are toe picks. in hockey, if you fall, you are cushioned by helmet and uniform. in skating, you are not cushioned. in hockey, there are friends and enemies on the rink. in skating, you are all alone or with a partner. in hockey, you chase a small puck around the rink. in skating, you chase nothing. in hockey, you try and make goals. in skating, you try and skate the best you can. in hockey, the skates are a means of transportation. in skating, the skates are a means to an end. in hockey, you move from one end of the rink to another. in skating, you move everywhere on the rink. in hockey, you skate to the inner rhythm of the game. in skating, you skate to music. in hockey, there are referees. in skating, there are judges. in hockey, you carry a stick. in skating, you carry nothing. in hockey, you are heavily clothed. in skating, you wear fancy costumes and are close to naked. in hockey, you can break your bones and die. in skating, you can break your bones and die. in hockey, the effort is irrelevant and scoring is everything. in skating, you should appear effortless and winning is everything. in hockey, you are protected against the skate blades. in skating, you may be easily injured by the blades. in hockey, you may have brawls on the ice. in skating, you may lift and throw your partner. in hockey, the brawls are broken up. in skating, you hope your partner lands successfully. in hockey, the overall impression is of strength and speed. in skating, the overall impression is of technique, grace, and innovation. in hockey, the players are often strong and large. in skating, the skaters are often lithe and strong. in hockey, males most often skate with males. in skating, males most often skate with females. in hockey, there is a lot of charging ahead. in skating, there is a lot of turning around. in hockey, technique is for putting the puck in the goal. in skating, technique is an end in itself. in hockey, you use any technique for speed and strategy. in skating, you land carefully on one or another foot. in hockey, skating backwards takes you away from the fray. in skating, skating backwards is an end in itself. in hockey, you are in the puck and with your teammates. in skating, you are an end in yourself and perhaps your partner. in hockey, you are in the service of applied art. in skating, you are in the service of art in itself. in hockey, you are careful of the referees. in skating, you are victimized by the sexually corrupt world of judging. in hockey, you do anything within the limits of the game. in skating, you are controlled by established propriety and etiquette. in hockey, you are part of an alliance against another. in skating, you are portrayed in love, against the other lovers. in hockey, you are of the ice and rink. in skating, you are of the ice and air. in hockey, the ineffable. in skating, the ineffable. ... spinning as part of the ice dancers requirements, this blade ... a unique split bottom pick which will allow the ... position of the crosscut toe pick is designed to ... ... lift any move in pairs skating in which the male ... lifts his partner off the ice. in the most spectacular ... backward curve, uses the toe pick to rotate in the ... ... instead, flip the skating foot around to execute the 3-turn. 8. as you exit the 3-turn, tap the ice with the side of your left toe pick, leg extended. back to ... and land perfectly on the ice is one of the most ... different types of figure skating jumps. each jump is ... a skater vaults off the toe pick of the other foot. ... ... this improvement made toe pick jumps possible. the skating ... the first closed toe skating ... ... there are many forces at work while figure skating. ... back with the left foot and jabs the toe pick into the ice to provide assistance for the jump. the ... ... the 1870's, making toe pick jumps possible. ... invented the first closed toe blade made from one ... to 3.8 acres. more ice skating history the first skates ... ... turns counterclockwise on the ice, standing on the left leg ... any help from a toe pick or a swinging free ... the skater starts by skating backwards on two feet ... ... edge free skate lift toe pick. 5. a method of ... program's use of the ice surface, originality, difficulty ... singles and pairs skating competition that accounts ... ... the entry edge of the skating foot without bringing the free ... in contact with the ice to assist in the ... which skaters use their toe pick and take off from ... i think hockey is a beautiful world. i think skating is a beautiful dream. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 16:48:36 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: MASS PROTESTS APRIL 20 IN WASH. DC & SAN FRANCISCO MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT APRIL 20, 2002 MASS MARCHES IN WASHINGTON,DC & SAN FRANCISCO PROTEST THE REAL AXIS OF EVIL: WAR, RACISM AND POVERTY PEOPLE FROM TEN WESTERN STATES TO GATHER IN SAN FRANCISCO ON APRIL 20TH FOR MASS ANTI-WAR, ANTI-RACIST PROTEST FOR L.A. BUS INFO,TO VOLUNTEER, OR FOR MORE INFO, CALL ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) Coalition Call 213 487-2368 to reserve your seat today! Other Organizing Centers San Francisco 415.821-6545, San Jose 408.975-0670, Santa Cruz 831.502- 3468, Sacramento 916.448-7517, Davis 530.304-4573, Placerville 530.622-9549, Chico 530.892-8361, Eureka/Arcata 707.442-2925, S. Humboldt Co. 707.943-1847, Modesto 209.526-9588, Fresno 559.485-6356, Santa Barbara/Ojai 805-646-8440, So. Central LA 323.759-7567, Huntington Bch. 714.964-2162, Anaheim 714.956-5037, Riverside 909.272- 6684, Claremont 909.624-4796, Hemet 909.652-7317, San Diego 619.692- 4422, Ashland 541.488-5653, Seattle 206.325-0085, Spokane 509.891-8545 Coeur D'Alene 208.651-0695, Salt Lake City 801.328-0831 On April 20, tens of thousands of people from many communities and movements -- the African American, Latino, Arab, Asian, Native and other communities of color, union, women, communities of faith, immigrants, lesbian, gay, bi and trans people, students and youth, environmentalists and others -- will join together in Washington, D.C. and San Francisco to take a stand against war and racism. The Bush program is a disastrous response to the Sept. 11 disaster. As the U.S. war continues in Afghanistan, a new war in Iraq is being planned. U.S. troops are now in Yemen, Georgia, the Philippines and Colombia. U.S. F-16s supplied to Israel are raining death on Palestinian cities. The Pentagon is preparing for nuclear war against China, Russia, Iran, North Korea, Iraq, Syria and Libya! The military budget will rise to $500,000,000,000 by 2007. The right-wing, militarist extremists have taken control and are pushing ahead with horrific and genocidal plans. We also see a wide-ranging attack on civil rights, civil liberties and immigrant rights. Millions here and billions around the world live in poverty, without healthcare, jobs, decent housing and education. Environmental restrictions are being overturned for the sake of maximizing corporate profits. There is only one force that can stop this pro-war, racist, anti-worker offensive -- a mass people's movement. April 20 will be the next critical step in building the movement we need. Join us, become an organizer, make a contribution, get involved. Together we can win! ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 17:40:46 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution In-Reply-To: <20020315050449.44383.qmail@web11703.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pre-modernist surrealists "L'amore di Isidore Ducasse conte di Lautreamont" (. . . And something should later be said about "Drug Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary avant-gardism.) :) The drug is the revolution of body / mind from the ageless reason. It is the frontier story. One person on a quest to find what is there. It is a lonely quest full of hardships but one fraught with adventure. It turns surrealism to realism. That factor alone makes time drip. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 12:05 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: working class poetry and The Myth of Revolution Ron Silliman wrote: > To confuse those people with $150K networking consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty incoherent picture.< (It may be a sign of my own creeping conservatism, but I personally feel uncomfortable with gratuitous vilification of financial industry professionals. As if there were no James Sherry. And now especially, after the wholesale slaughter of them in the tens of hundreds and the leveling force of the Grim Reaper's scythe has painfully revealed them to be/to have been little more than workers in their own right. But that's not my point here . . .) Isn't all this discussion of class and class obligations within poetry missing its propelling factor, without any corollary sense of ~revolution~ and the poet-revolutionary? Any attempted analysis of class, even from a rightist consumer-exploitative stance, has its basis and origin in, of course, Marx's class theories. And that Marxist, post-Marxist or quasi-Marxist always took its motivating force aginst class from variously manifested versions of "revolution." I have recently been reinvestigating Surrealism, . . . which partly lost its saliency because the "engagement" [pronounced "on-gozh-mon-t'"] of Existentialist commitment segued better into the concrete '68 revolutions, . . . and its genuine, troubled political dimension: Breton co-authored a paper with Trotsky, many Surrealists "defected" from the Surrealist Revolution into Communist Party membership, etc.; so, it's much on mine my mind how, where, and when both real collaboration with "revolutionary" political movements and social forces or a ~myth~ of revolution fuelled the XXth century avant-garde we're the inheritors of. The line forward from Surrealism and the October Revolution is fairly easy to draw: Surrealism out of the more short-lived, nihilistic and less articulated Dada forward into Lettrism, Situationism, and perhaps Lacan and post-structuralism. But I find myself faltering --- I need more research or education into the pre-history of Modernism --- in trying to trail the line backward chronologically. The Modernist precursors, the Impressionists in painting and Les Symbolistes in poetry, although formally often continuous with the Cubisms and -isms that flowed out of or were spawned in reaction against them, on the face of things do not exactly appear to be ~revolutionary~ in the same sense: rather, the Manet depictions of men in waist coats and top hats as the ~celebration~ of haute bougeoisie, the Monet leisure, etc., and, in poetry, end-of-an-era decadence rather than a generative "revolution,"--- a decadence, albeit, whose obscurantism remains larger the prototype and starting point of Modernist and post-modern obscurantisms, including the current "asyntactical." However, despite the occasional formal resemblances, --- and I know that here and there there must indeed have been counter examples of sympathies for the emergent splinter group pre-October Socialists and utopians that I just am uneducated about, such as (?) the younger American Whitman or Hawthorne's and the Transcendalists' Fourier communes --- these precursors, again, rather than being anti-"capitalist" seem to typify an ~epitome~ of capital, and their aesthetic revolution to be on the plane of, say, innovation in the fashion design of ~haute couture~ clothes, glass stemware (Lalique, Tiffany), and such. The ~ultra-moderne~ rather than Modernist "revolution." For want of a better word, I'm thinking of that high capitalist ~semblable~ of later anti-capitalist avant-garde as "High Style." (Maybe it's a Mannerism.) Regardless, it represents a legitimate moment where formalist relatedness conceals political antithesis, and demonstrates a Modernism that was fully dedicated to capital, rather than class revolution. (And there was pre-Modernist or even anti-Modernist, non avant-garde revolutionary art: the realist classicism of Jean-Louis David's ~Tennis Court Oath,~ etc., which commemorated political upheavals and ~coups d'etat.~) And, --- pessimistically? --- I wonder if we haven't come full cycle and, fin-de-siecle again, at the turning point of both centuries, whether our particular historical branch --- "hippy" revolutionary Beat > Black Mountain > Language --- hasn't had the revolutionary myth effectively drain out of it, --- so that our current uneasy condition is a ~vestigial~ lip service to "revolution" but a reversion to High Style "bourgeois"/middle class conservatism. The discrepancy between the lived careerism and MFA-ing of poetry, the (first generation) New York School buttoning up back into shocking neckties and blazers versus the Beat dishevelment, (the journal ~Fence~?) --- aren't we in a position like the earliest Modernists, living "the good life," fully trafficking in the pleasures of capital, and ~only~ observing a superficial (hypocritical?) ~trace~ pseudo-revolutionariness in formal aesthetic experimentalism (an experimentalism that has, meanwhile, obviously become its own paradoxical conservatisim of an "alternative tradition," perhaps in fact the ~sole~ keepers of tradition)? The point being that, without revolution, including a revolutionary ideology for poetry (~Revolution dans la Langue Poetique~?), class is merely class,--- and discussion about its frictions is just moot, neither here nor there: it's all missing its necessary leverage ("revolution"). ...................................................... Incidentally,--- (Any "revolutionary" agenda, of course, is currently badly compromised or stifled, like the tepid street protests against the recent World Economic Forum, by revolution's indistinguishability from terrorism, or, for that matter, berserk schizophrenic violence [the newspaper-certified "schizophrenic" shooting up a post office, and Baden Meinhof-ish shooting up a post office], and the reasonable-seeming total clamp-down of new social controls and revoked civil liberties.) (. . . And something should later be said about "Drug Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary avant-gardism.) :) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:45:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: M L Weber Subject: "on the road" issue Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Online now - issue 10 - www.SugarMule.com Poetry Pierre Joris CANTO DIURNO #2 Karl Young from Milestones Prose Paul Beckman Three pieces Andrei Codrescu Road Kill Shawn Davis Shakedown Paul Alan Fahey A Solitary Sound Herbert Foster Kaufman My Last Run John J. Maguire The Former Traveller Rochelle Ratner Popping Seaweed Wayne Scheer Road Trip Lawrence Upton Hesperides Harriet Zinnes Without Any Pressing Need _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 06:16:22 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: re Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: <20020316051153.YKBW15727.mta008.verizon.net@acsu.buffalo.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I believe that he passed away several years ago, Ron ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:21:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality In-Reply-To: <014301c1ca6b$9d722720$09cf36d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed richard, can you make your next message 1/3 the length of this? after all, i see that they're shrinking. Gene At 09:46 PM 3/13/02 +1300, you wrote: >You mean that of the working class they are near the bottom of the heap: or >on the "lowest" strata: and that is a reality but in the West we can be >"really working class" and relatively prosperous. But I know what you're >saying: we should think of these people who are working in (often) terrible >conditions: these people re the peole most often "terrorised" either by >physical threats or attacks or by the threat of being sacked. Those kind of >people can become suicide bombers: and one can understad how that comes >about: the "poor" Israelis exist but far more Palestinians are poor (I'm >aware that some also prosperous) and very often desperate - backs to the >wall - unlike many Israelis (there has never been an Israeli suicide >bomber) - they are often close to physical and psychological dspair - >desparation...even exhaustion through poverty and so on: their "frame of >mind" is often "revolutionary". Richard. >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Ray Bianchi" >To: >Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 1:01 PM >Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > I think that this discussion of a working class poetics has merit. The > > problem is who is having the discussion on a working class poetics; > > academics. I worked in Latin America for 8 years first in Bolivia and >then > > in Brazil. I worked for an NGO working with inmates in prision. > > The people that I worked with were truly working class, that means that >they > > had no savings, working with their bodies for a living doing hard, dirty > > jobs and they were caught int a cycle of employment violence that lead >them > > to dispair but also to push for real social change. I am genuinely > > interested in what these folks have to say poetically. The problem is >that > > I do not share their lives and most > > writers of poetry and fiction today do not share these lives either. these > > people have no voice and I cannot create one for them because I do not >share > > their struggles. > > > > Even a poet who is radical like Amiri Baraka is more in the Middle Class > > because of the fact that they do not live in that type of world. The > > problem is that we objectivfy what should be a subject, people who work > > hard. I would challenge people to think about this when talking about a > > poetic of work. > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "richard.tylr" > > To: > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 5:51 AM > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > But their circumstances are quite different: (I'm responding to RB) eg >one > > > would expect the poetry of an African poet to be more politically > > "charged" > > > or intense. (Maybe also some poets in the West nowadays with the > > continuing > > > military action by Ashcroft, Bush etal).. Some poets in MFA programs may > > > also take to writing strong "working class" poetry...maybe though some > > > aspects of the programs "defuse" that side: but worse than MFA >(perceived > > > "typical" of such) is equally the "bush poets" ... the poets who claim >to > > > have learnt from "the university of ife" and are aggressively "from the > > > heart" (and aggressively and deliberately ignorant of poetry except say > > some > > > John Masefield and some Longfellow or Ella Wheeler Wilcox) which means > > > they write drivel which actually is an insult to the intelligence of the > > > working class and anyone of any other class or type: an example would be > > > Brecht's powerful poems, some shatteringly direct: but looking over all > > his > > > work there are many 'experimental' and other kinds of poems (and plays >of > > > course)...its not all "cut and dried" .... I know what you're "driving >at" > > > but the world has room for many styles and approaches in art, music, > > poetry > > > etc. Regards, Richard. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ray Bianchi" > > > To: > > > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:38 AM > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality > > > > > > > > > > It is a laugh for people who are academics to write about a working > > class > > > > poetics. Most poets today in the USA are academics living on grants >and > > > > academic salaries. I am sorry but I have more respect for poets who >are > > > > elitists like Pound and Stevens and are at least honest about what >they > > > are. > > > > Where in the working class base is poetry coming from??? There are >some > > > > great working class poets but they are in Brazil, China and Africa not > > the > > > > MFA programs in the USA. > > > > > > > > RB > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: "michael amberwind" > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Friday, March 08, 2002 11:06 PM > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & >nationality > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can empathise with yr situation in a true > > > > > Oprah-fied fashion. I live on about $520 a month > > > > > - of which over two thirds is spent on rent. > > > > > > > > > > What you said about working people often having > > > > > more time is very much true. Much of my time and > > > > > schedule is eat up walking, I cannot afford > > > > > transportation, and so much of your life is > > > > > dependant on the schedules and time frames of > > > > > others. > > > > > > > > > > You could say I have paid my dues for poetry. In > > > > > high school I had what would probably now be > > > > > called ADD, though in truth it was simply > > > > > boredom. > > > > > I would spend days cutting classes and head to > > > > > the university library, perusing the stacks, > > > > > reading whatever came to me. > > > > > > > > > > No High School means no University means No job > > > > > tho lots of the people I know with those things > > > > > are in little better financial shape than I am > > > > > in. > > > > > > > > > > There is a definite class/culture dividing line. > > > > > This is a University town. People who go to > > > > > University, or teach there, do *not* tend to > > > > > reach out to the literary community as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > I have lived in various missions, so I know how > > > > > hard it is to sleep. A good pair of earplugs - > > > > > sometimes with a pair of headphones on over them > > > > > - > > > > > would get you through the night. > > > > > > > > > > I've run into people who write "poems" at the > > > > > lower end of the sphere. Oddly enough, they tend > > > > > to rarely be angry or "revolutionary". > > > > > > > > > > One time when I was bone broke, and living in the > > > > > mission in another city, so I didn't even have > > > > > friends to rely on, I found that the experience, > > > > > the utter downward pull of the earth, was an > > > > > opening for me to write a new kind of poetry, one > > > > > more gentle and more serious. > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure how poetry can "make things > > > > > better." If poetry had the power to do that, I > > > > > would be suspicious of it. > > > > > > > > > > I am reminded that before the industrial > > > > > revolution, manual labours sometimes hired people > > > > > to read to them while they worked. Who could even > > > > > imagine such a thing today? > > > > > > > > > > Now I find myself in a strange place. > > > > > On one hand, I am opposed to education as a kind > > > > > of "social climbing". Education, in the classical > > > > > sense, ought to be about the building of > > > > > character and the soul. Of course it is so far > > > > > from that ideal so as to be laughable. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, the intellectual stimulation I > > > > > crave simply *cannot* be met at the level I am > > > > > living at right now. Most of the people I meet > > > > > who are poor, but are seeking "answers", looking > > > > > for a wider frame, one that art and poetry and > > > > > philosophy may offer, instead get sold a kind of > > > > > Fundamentalist Christianity. Thus I am > > > > > considering enrolling in University and getting a > > > > > degree. Which, if it helps me get a job I don't > > > > > feel makes me want to kill myself, great. If it > > > > > doesn't, then I am stuck right back where I am - > > > > > only in $30 000 of debt. > > > > > > > > > > Most of the poor people I know are utterly > > > > > uninterested in poetry, or much of anything else. > > > > > Getting high maybe. It's an easier escape - and > > > > > good weed beats a bad poem any day. > > > > > > > > > > I'm skeptical about the use of poetry as a > > > > > rhetorical force. I myself have learned a great > > > > > deal from the language, beat and avant garde > > > > > poetics, from several angles. But I do know that > > > > > if a revolution occurs - and hey, it could happen > > > > > tommorrow, I want there to be poets around, > > > > > speaking their piece and holding out for truth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 03:05:03 -0500 > > > > > > From: Millie Niss > > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm barely a poet but I do try to write poetry, > > > > > > but working class is > > > > > > sometimes a strange notion compared to > > > > > > poverty... I mean I am nowhere near > > > > > > working class but I am poor... > > > > > > > > > > > > I live on $366/month + I get free housing at my > > > > > > father's house > > > > > > I have to go to medicaid clinics to get health > > > > > > problmes dealt with > > > > > > but I am in no way working class-- both parents > > > > > > are professionals (though > > > > > > neither is working and both are in precarious > > > > > > financial situations) & I > > > > > > graduated from Columbia > > > > > > > > > > > > It is a stereotype, but I really did wait in > > > > > > the GYN clinic with a pregnant > > > > > > homeless woman who was having her eighth child > > > > > > and was trying to get > > > > > > housing. I too wouldn't mind housing in the > > > > > > projects, so we had something > > > > > > in common... > > > > > > > > > > > > The problems of the genuinely poor are nothing > > > > > > like the problems of the > > > > > > working class, who are, after all, WORKING, > > > > > > often at decent union rates. > > > > > > Whne I was working a year and a half ago, I was > > > > > > a low wage earner (mostly > > > > > > because Social Security was taking back half my > > > > > > earnings), but I wasn't in > > > > > > poverty as far as I was concerned-- although I > > > > > > was still below the poverty > > > > > > line then. But now I am really poor. Peple > > > > > > who are Working, paradoxically, > > > > > > have more time than those who are impoverished. > > > > > > When you are working, you > > > > > > can come home after work to your own (rented) > > > > > > apartment for a spot of poetry > > > > > > or even to write poetry. > > > > > > > > > > > > I have written a lot of poetry since my income > > > > > > went away, but that's because > > > > > > I am lucky in that moving back to my father's > > > > > > did not mean moving back into > > > > > > a home with many children & grandchildren > > > > > > milling around and no bedroom of > > > > > > mf my own and only the kitchen heated, etc. > > > > > > etc. That is due to not being > > > > > > working class, I guess-- my father may have > > > > > > little income now, but like many > > > > > > prfessionals, he had only one child and has a > > > > > > nice, spacious apartment... > > > > > > > > > > > > So I suppose the people I meet in waiting rooms > > > > > > and am talking about are > > > > > > people who fall from the ranks of the working > > > > > > class down into total poverty. > > > > > > > > > > > > When you are impoverished, you might have to > > > > > > walk around all day maybe. > > > > > > because your shelter kicks you out during the > > > > > > day, but you have to carry > > > > > > around all your stuff. If it's not too obvious > > > > > > and you don't smell bad, you > > > > > > can go in a library, and then you might be able > > > > > > to read poetry, but you > > > > > > probably don't because you are so tired from no > > > > > > sleep because the room held > > > > > > seventy women and two of them snored, 5 > > > > > > coughed. 2 talked all night to > > > > > > voices, two had sex with each other, and one > > > > > > had managed to sneak in a man > > > > > > to have sex with... So you fall asleep in the > > > > > > library but you have taught > > > > > > yourself not to slump over and to sleep with > > > > > > the book at the right distance > > > > > > from your face because you get kicked out of > > > > > > libraries if you sleep... And > > > > > > then it's time for the big line to get back > > > > > > into the shelter and eat a > > > > > > greasy unhealthy dinner and a group shower and > > > > > > lights off at some absurdly > > > > > > early hour which no one complains about... > > > > > > > > > > > > People who live in poverty and depend on a > > > > > > patchwork of programs in order to > > > > > > eat and sleep other than on the street have to > > > > > > spend inordinate amounts of > > > > > > time waiting in offices for those programs. > > > > > > They spend their lives sitting > > > > > > in waiting rooms. If they had a job, they'd > > > > > > have to quit the job or get > > > > > > fired aso they could go to waiting rooms. Just > > > > > > to get antibiotics for a > > > > > > sore throat at the clinic I go to, you could > > > > > > easily spend all day there, and > > > > > > then half the time, no matter how minor your > > > > > > complaint, instead of treating > > > > > > it they send you for more tests and to > > > > > > specialists, so that each visit to > > > > > > primary care balloons into three tests and > > > > > > visits to two specialists and you > > > > > > still haven't gotten any treatment, just more > > > > > > appointments. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then they also wait at welfare or at Social > > > > > > Security or at the Food Stamp > > > > > > office, or at HUD or at a mental health > > > > > > agency... > > > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure these poor people have time for > > > > > > poetry, the way working class > > > > > > people do, but when they do, I would hope > > > > > > they'd want something ANGRY, like > > > > > > some of the slam poets or Baraka in some phases > > > > > > or what not, but I bet the > > > > > > poetry they really like is in the Readers' > > > > > > Digest (they read the Readers' > > > > > > Digest in the numerous waiting rooms, but maybe > > > > > > only because that's what's > > > > > > there to read). I suspect some of them tried > > > > > > to write poetry as teenagers, > > > > > > at least the women, and might become interested > > > > > > again if they didn't have to > > > > > > fight for a place to stay or a way to get > > > > > > medical care or enough money for > > > > > > food every single day. I don't know that these > > > > > > experiences make good poetry > > > > > > in the sense that "we" might judge it -- I am > > > > > > not myself usually that taken > > > > > > with "sincere" work by people who have really > > > > > > suffered, although someotimes > > > > > > one has to be extremely respectful of it, even > > > > > > impressed, as with early AIDS > > > > > > poems or poetry by people under siege in > > > > > > Sarajevo or something. But one is > > > > > > impressed on a scale other than the usual > > > > > > poetic scale-- it's more being > > > > > > impressed by the bravery of a person in that > > > > > > situation who would stop and > > > > > > write a poem, even afterwards, that resembles a > > > > > > poem. (If it is really bad, > > > > > > I am not impressed, but I'm talking about the > > > > > > kind of testimonial poems that > > > > > > are perfectly good, just predictable and > > > > > > ordinary in their use of language.) > > > > > > > > > > > > Millie > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > > From: UB Poetics discussion group > > > > > > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On > > > > > > Behalf Of megan minka lola > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 12:27 PM > > > > > > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > > > > > > Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something > > > > > > to be (race & nationality > > > > > > count!) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "It's nobody's secret that the avant-garde > > > > > > pursues radical invention, > > > > > > > discovery, practice, et cet, in a space > > > > > > cleared, with fierce frequency, by > > > > > > > personal wealth. Indeed, I know myself as the > > > > > > mainstream not because you > > > > > > > appointed me thus in '98, but because I've > > > > > > never inherited a penny." > > > > > > > (magee) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hey this is true enough as a statement about > > > > > > white american poets but > > > > > > breaks down internationally and racially. > > > > > > > > > > > > E.g. here in san francisco there has been a > > > > > > very queer spoken word > > > > > > scene that is working class and white. Not much > > > > > > interest in theory. > > > > > > the (white) working class dyke scene in my > > > > > > experience is suspicious > > > > > > of theory, it can arouse real anger. After one > > > > > > itty-bitty presentation > > > > > > with a knotted up chunk of theory in the middle > > > > > > a woman I actually > > > > > > know came up and blasted me, what the F**K were > > > > > > you talking about!!?! > > > > > > > > > > > > Lately Tisa Bryant and I at New Langton Arts > > > > > > have been putting together > > > > > > a series Diaspora Poetics locating radical > > > > > > experimentation ELSEWHERE. > > > > > > Communities of exile, immigration, diaspora. > > > > > > This is one hell of rich > > > > > > vein of experimental work!! It just does not > > > > > > follow the paradigm of > > > > > > white trust fund babies toying with > > > > > > abstraction. WHY. > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps it's a political problem, not a > > > > > > literary one. There's been a lot of > > > > > > anti-colonial anti-imperialist theoretical work > > > > > > (e.g. Said) which > > > > > > has been hella useful to people coming to > > > > > > consciousness about the > > > > > > political forces that locate them in their > > > > > > lives. The white (american) > > > > > > working class has not been gotten such > > > > > > persuasive and transformative > > > > > > analyses. WHY NOT. > > > > > > > > > > > > camille roy > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ===== > > > > > ...I am a real poet. My poem > > > > > is finished and I haven't mentioned > > > > > orange yet. It's twelve poems, I call > > > > > it ORANGES. And one day in a gallery > > > > > I see Mike's painting, called SARDINES. > > > > > [from "Why I Am Not A Painter" by Frank O'Hara] > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > > > Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! > > > > > http://mail.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 18:27:09 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: Fwd: working class... In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed see blue collar review Gene At 04:20 AM 3/14/02 -0500, you wrote: >nudel-soho@mindspring.com wrote: > > > > too continue the diatribe..try looking at the roots of rad > writing...Columbia..Ginsberg Burroughs Kerouac.............Harvard > Ashbery O'hara Koch Creeley (non-grad)...Wesleyan...Merrill...etc etc > etc...if Bush's Cabinet looked like this what would Amiri Baraka who has > worked all of one day a week for most of his life as a full prof > say...all the more time to eat em u up capitlaism, my dear...drn.... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 19:08:05 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Announcing issue #6 of VeRT Magazine Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit I am proud & humbled to announce a remarkable issue of VeRT Magazine, issue #6. [http://www.litvert.com] A short list of what lies within includes: The work of Jenny Boully, whose poem _from The Body_ has been selected for The Best American Poetry series Poems by Leonard Schwartz and Robert Kelly exploring the Tower of Babel Chris Daniel's landmark translations of Fernando Pessoa plus his translations of four Brazilian poets Anastasios Kozaitis translates China's Bei Ling w/ an Introduction, as well as Adonis Fostiris w/ a variation by Anastasios Jeffrey Jullich breaks the bounds of this "too, too solid flesh" to translate via Victor Hugo's Ouija Board: Shakespeare, Aeschylus and Cedj Interviews conducted by Kent Johnson of Gabe Gudding and Mairead Byrne as well a separate interview w/ Lissa Wolsak Dale Smith writes of his search for Rimbaud in Yemen and Texas Poems, letters and translations from Kent Johnson Poems and letters from Chris Stroffolino and Deirdre Simon Poems from India Poems and pictures from Jill Stengel, Clark Lunberry & David Reisman... I have exhausted this short list...! (For a complete list of contributors visit the VeRT web site: http://www.litvert.com) ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 01:05:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: our love MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - our love self-deprecation going nowhere, there must be a space for structure, not anecdote audience [laugh] [applause] surely you must think, mr. sondheim, that you are stale and have covered everything, is it not? it is not. is it something else, mr. sondheim. [shrug] [jump] yes and surely. we are packing up to leave this life. i cannot think. there are crickets and sand midges everywhere. my body is a sieve. you are a saint, mr. sondheim. [laugh] [kiss] thank you for your consideration. but i have no more stories, i am lazy to program, i have no conditions. i must audience [query] [yes] i must complete my theoretical work so that it is bone, not marrow; spine, not tissue, earth, not inconceivable and wobbling space mr. sondheim, we are with you in our heart. you are a genius and you must do this. we applaud your effort to write when you are packing up to leave this life. audience [applause] [consternation] do not fear, i will work through this with my customary and tremendous courage, i will not disappoint of course you will not, mr. sondheim, you have never done but brilliant through the most amazing consequences that would have haunted and weakened anyone else audience [empathetic] [poor mr. sondheim] but it is true, it is the most slightest true, that i will be doing a disappointment to myself, unless i am packing up less and thinking of our world and its terrible needs and wants so much more, that i will stop packing up and thinking of my theoretical work which is so very important to you audience [agreement] [wonderful applause] i know i can count on you and i promise i will never let you down, i would rather my heart shatter and my limbs turn leprous than i will let you down, which i will not. you are so brave mr. sondheim, i cannot believe how brave you are in this dark world, and we are eager readers of your theoretical work, which will make us better people who will know about the dark world audience [thankful] [eternally grateful] thank you thank you, i will produce the greatest work and i will cease leaving and will remain forever in your hearts and my books and every other writing audience [more than thankful] [jump] [wonderfully put] that was wonderfully put, mr. sondheim, thank you, thank you, thank you. _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 23:17:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: ...the end of human life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan, well, since there is nothing else to do but act...unless we sit around and moan at slow decay...whimpering etc, etc., what do you think is to be done? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Alan Sondheim To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:41 AM Subject: Re: ...the end of human life >In reference to jean chris, my tendency is towards pessimism; I would >conjoin the "If" piece I sent to Poetics last, to the series of quota- >tions. It seems to me that disaster is taking over the world; I know of no >defense but a certain delineation, or raising of the first, or crying out >in articulate manner. At Rhode Island School of Design years ago I taught >a course, The Year 3000, in futurism; I am seeing the rather pessimistic >conclusions reached at that point (from The Year 2000 report on), come >true, more or less, tottering as the world totters. > >There is no apocalyypse; there never will be - just a slow dying, what you >can see in almost any wilderness world-wide. > >And there is no myth perhaps - in the U.S. we're inundated with myth, but >the socio-political horizon is void... > >Alan ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 15:39:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Trimania shout out MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I wanted to send a shout out [whoo hoo] to Mike Basinski, Mark Peters and company for a wonderful night of sound and performance poetry at the Trimania event in Buffalo last night. It was a mix of theater of the absurd meets a greek chorus. It was refreshing. Oh and Jonathan Skinner had a great reading too. His poems were translated into american sign language which amplified his twists of language to glorious heights. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k2 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 11:44:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. I think you're right (or as "right" as one can be right!) in this discussion. Murat may be confusing value - or intrinsic value - with the Marxist (or other economic-philosohic-political) determinationof what a product is. In capitalism, and many other (most systems that have ever existed except in very early stages of the formation of civilisation (as opposed to hunter-gatherers and so on)): the value of a product is basically its use value to the consumer: so supply and demand comes in: if poetry suddenly replaced pop-music or movies or pulp fiction that sells in big stores thousands of poets would become millionnaires, or at least prosperous. But sex and glamour and hollywood and so on sells: and certain novels "take of" (most are trash but occasionally a major writer gets big sales and sometimes a poet - but in general the more significant one is as a poet (or even an artist) the less successful one is duruing one's life ... so its better as a poet to just get on with writing and if people take an interest one day well and good. I am recording myown poems onto CD and then I might produce some copies of a project (s) i have but beyond that I am under no ridiculous illusion that many people (or even any) are going to be interested in an old man's writings: in the real world, the big seller is sex, violence, fashion, and trivia, drivellania: and so on. A poet who is amking money out o0f poetry has probably "failed" or is not very good sub specie aeternitatis. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "gene" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 12:24 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > check out Blue Collar Review. > > Gene > > At 02:26 PM 3/10/02 -0500, you wrote: > >In a message dated 3/10/02 11:45:13 AM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: > > > ><< In a message dated 3/9/02 3:44:29 PM, Austinwja@AOL.COM writes: > > > > >Murat >> > > > > > >Apologies for inserting myself here. Seems to me that poetry is > > economically > > >viable, in the academy. Anthologies, some of them, sell quite well. And > > >many poets make a living traveling from reading to reading...... So long as > >poetry is bound and > > >delivered between two covers with price tag, it's a product, right? The > > >situation is not all that dissimilar to that of serious (classical?) music > > >and jazz. Best, Bill > > > > > > >Bill, > > > >You touched important issues. No, I don't think the academy is a > >"compensation" for poems. How many of the poets would get a job if they > >represented themselves to the search committees without a Phd? In fact, the > >academy reflects the relation between one's work and who is paying for it. In > >subtle ways, it forces the poet to write ways which the literary environment > >of that instotutions considers "good" poetry, "experimental" poetry, etc. A > >genuinely new poetry, in that sense, may endenger one academic career. > > > >It is true that anthologies (and critical writings which quote poems) sell > >quite well. But that money goes mostly to publishers, not the poets. As Ed > >Foster pointed out, a poem is worth more as a quotation than as a poem. > > > >Making money out of the reading of one's poems is the nearest thing to one's > >being paid for the poetic labor. But how many poets can make a living out of > >these readings? Generously, the average payment for a reading is 150/250 > >dollars (Allen Ginsberg made I think about 2000). One needs at least > >20,000.00 a year (in the States) to live. How many of us can give, let's say, > >100 readings a year. I would go crazy, and nobody would ask many of us to > >give that many anyway. What about the time we spent writing the poems? > >Besides, if one gave a hundred readings, what kind of poems will one end up > >writing, both to satisfy that schedule and draw the audience for it? > >What you say is viable for a specific kind of performance poetry -like jazz- > >where the poet improvises around themes during the performance, where the > >writing and performing of the poem are one. > > > >The point I am making is that for whom the poem is being writing is crucial > >in determining the form and content (indirectly the class) of the poem. And, > >since for most poets a poem has no economic viability, a poem is not a > >product, writing it not a production; but a consumption. A poet very often > >must steal time (from productive economic activity, like addicts do) to write > >his or her poetry. Writing poetry subverts labor, is an anti-productive > >activity. It is done mainly for the experience, the thrill of writing it, > >compulsively, against labor. If so, a poem is a process, not a product, not a > >craft; an impulse to start constantly from scratch, to reinvent the wheel. > >This is very liberating but also surrounded with doom, a subversion of > >economic value systems. In my view, this is the class status of the poet in > >the United States: a compulsive consumer, "working" against economic reason, > >like the gin drinkers in England during the industrial revolutions or > >alcoholics or cocaine addicts. > > > >Ciao > >Murat > > >> > > > >Murat, most of what you say here makes sense to me. As I said in my last > >post, few poets achieve the status of a Ginsberg (who died a millionaire). > >But I think you're splitting hairs on the product/process thing. Music is > >quite obviously a process, but it is also packaged and sold. If the > >distinction rests on whether or not the artists can anticipate financial > >reward, then most creative activities do not yield products. Most > >architects, for example, never see their designs gracing a skyline, nor do > >they get paid very much for them. They are more likely to provide grunt work > >for some firm. But that doesn't change the fact that a skyscraper is a > >product. Likewise, most poets cannot expect much financial reward. They > >create because they are driven through the process by their own talent and > >interests -- but the poem is nevertheless a product which can be delivered > >within two covers, or on a screen. Creating the product involves process, of > >course, as does experiencing (reading) the product, much as designing the > >skyscraper, or walking through it's rooms and hallways, does. I think you > >may be setting two things against each other that are not actually in > >conflict. Poetry is a product that is not all that welcome in our society, > >unlike in some other societies. But some products sell, and some don't. > > > >Would you claim, for instance, that the writing of novels does not involve a > >product because most novelists do not make money and novels in the main are > >not economically viable? A few novels make big bucks, right? Publishers are > >willing to dump a lot of this product on the market in the hope that some of > >it will sell. Some poetry does sell. Determining the product nature of a > >text according to how well it sells seems to put the cart before the horse. > >If it's available for sale, or consumption in any way, it's a product. We > >might even argue that the poet who stands before an audience is a product > >generated by his texts, and at the same time a process that must be > >experienced in time. Best, Bill > > > >WilliamJamesAustin.com > >KojaPress.com > >Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 21:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be (race & nationality) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Y'all can come to my house. Really. Really really. > >You people are so funny -- is there a convention or something for this list? >Do we all get together at some point? > >-Aaron > > >p.s. really, is there? > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 22:38:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: poetry reading: Tenney Nathanson, Arizona Quarterly Symposium, Saturday March 23, 10 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tenney Nathanson will give a reading as part of the annual Arizona Quarterly Symposium--Saturday, March 23, 10 AM. U of A Alumni Building (aka "Swede" Johnson Building), NW corner of Speedway & Cherry. Free & open to the public; refreshments. For a complete schedule of the Symposium, which runs from Thursday March 21-Saturday March 23, please contact mailto:mlvons@dakotacom.net Tenney Nathanson's poems have appeared in such journals as Social Text, The Massachusetts Review, Ironwood, Sonora Review, Caterpillar, Tamarisk, RIF/T, Antennae, and Kenning. He has published two chapbooks, The Book of Death and One Block Over. Chax Press will publish a full-length collection of Nathanson’s poetry, Erased Art, in 2003. Current creative projects include a book-length poem, Home on the Range, and a chapbook, After Rilke, to include Nathanson’s poems as well as work by local calligrapher Don Lightner. His critical study Whitman’s Presence was published by NYU in 1992, and he is currently at work on a book about the contemporary poets John Ashbery, Charles Bernstein, Leslie Scalapino, Norman Fischer, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, and David Shapiro. for work online see: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift03/nath0301.html http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift05/nath0501.html http://www.gopog.org/wraps/poemmonth.html (but this url will crash older versions of Netscape) or go to: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/poetry.html * mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 20:29:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Bassford Subject: Jackson Mac Low at EXOTERICA MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit EXOTERICA is very pleased to bring you Jackson Mac Low on Sunday, March 24th at 1:30 pm at the Society for Ethical Culture, 4450 Fieldston Road in the Bronx. Jackson Mac Low, winner of the Wallace Stevens Award, was born in Chicago on September 12, 1922. He is a poet and composer, essayist and multimedia performance artist. He is the author of 26 books, and his work has appeared in many periodicals and anthologies. Mac Low's most recent publications include Two Plays: The Marrying Maiden and Verdurous Sanguinaria (Green Integer Books, 1999); 20 Forties (Zasterle Press, 1999); Twenties: 100 Poems(1991) and the CD Open Secrets (1993), comprised of eight works performed by Mac Low, his wife Anne Tardos, and 7 instumentalists. He has received awards from the National Endowment for the Arts, the Guggenheim Foundation, PEN, and the NYS Foundation for the Arts. Join us for this very special afternoon. $5 admission, Open Mike follows feature. For more info call series director Rick pernod at 718-549-5192. EXOTERICA...we'll be spreading the word... ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 10:01:30 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: fun web site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pam Brown and I have a new collaboration up at http://www.icols.org = (namely, the International Corporation for Lost Structures); we are job = share archivists in the department of dislocated memory, in case you're = wondering. But do wander about. Susan ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 16:41:32 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jack Foley Subject: New FlashPoint #5 is Up! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Announcing the new --=20 = FLASHPOINT #5 = Spring 2002 http://www.flashpoin= tmag.com "Along the frontier where the arts = & politics clash ..." John = Taggart Robert = Creeley George = Oppen C.P. = Cavafy Cris = Mazza David = Hickman on "Ego, Positivism, and the Smiling Pig of = Language Poetry" Brad Haas Mark Scroggins Anastasios = Kozaitis Andrew White David Clippinger Burt Kimmelman David = Alexander Anthony Wright Jon Potts = JR Foley Joe Brennan = Carlo Parcelli = and = the art of Ollie Harrington = and Tom Wagner "Sometimes a = lively street market, sometimes = a no-man's-land." ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 17:17:54 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fargas Laura Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > April 13 - Jorie Graham, 7:30 p.m. (reception and signing follows) I thought we already decided Jorie Graham sucks? Maybe that was another list. -Aaron >>> And the weight of earned authority on this list certainly resolves *that* fucking issue for me. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 21:06:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ram Devineni Subject: March 20: Breytenbach, Sanchez, Olds & others In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2002 Dialogue Through Poetry & UNESCO's World Poetry Day Reading Wednesday, March, 20 2002 from 7:00 PM to 9:00 PM The New School, Tishman Auditorium 66 West 12th St., New York City. FREE Featured poets and readers: Breyten Breytenbach, Sonia Sanchez, Sharon Ol= ds Shashi Tharoor & Bob Holman. TOPIC: Can poetry create a culture of peace and non-violence in the world= ? More Info at http://www.dialoguepoetry.org Breyten Breytenbach, a South African poet, addresses the issue of exile in his In Memory of Snow and Dust where he pieces together the lives of three exiles living in Paris. He has also co-founded the Goree Foundation= , on the Goree Islands off the coast of Senegal, which helps promote democr= atic unity on the African continent. In 1991 he went back for the first time to South Africa, a three-month trip which he recounts in A Return To Para= dise. He is also the author of The Memory of Birds in Time of Revolution and La= dy One: Of Love, and Other Poems. Sonia Sanchez is the author of more than a dozen books of poetry, includi= ng Shake Loose My Skin: New and Selected Poems; which won an American Book Award from the Before Columbus Foundation; I've Been a Woman: New and Sel= ected Poems and others. She has received are the Community Service Award from the National Black Caucus of State Legislators, the Lucretia Mott Award, the Outstanding Arts Award from the Pennsylvania Coalition of 100 Black Women, the Peace and Freedom Award from Women International League for Pe= ace and Freedom (WILPF) and others. She lives in Philadelphia. Sharon Olds numerous honors include a National Endowment for the Arts gra= nt; a Guggenheim Foundation Fellowship; the San Francisco Poetry Center Award= for her first collection, Satan Says; and the Lamont Poetry Selection and= the National Book Critics Circle Award for The Dead & the Living (1983). She was named New York State Poet in 1998 and lives in NYC. Shashi Tharoor has worked for the United Nations, serving with the UN Hig= h Commissioner for Refugees, whose Singapore office he headed during the "b= oat people" crisis. Since October 1989, he has been a senior official at UN HQ in New York, where, until late 1996, he was responsible for peacekeepi= ng operations in the former Yugoslavia. From January 1997 to July 1998, he was executive assistant to UN Secretary General Kofi Annan. In July 1998,= he was appointed director of communications and special projects in the office of the Secretary-General. In January 2001, he was appointed by the= Secretary-General as interim head of the Dept. of Public Information. Tha= roor books include Reasons of State; The Great Indian Novel; The Five-Dollar Smile & Other Stories; and a second novel, Show Business. Bob Holman's produced for PBS, The United States of Poetry, aired nationa= lly in 1996, featuring over sixty poets. He co-edited Aloud! Voices from the Nuyorican Poets Caf=E9, the winner of the American Book Award and a selec= tion of the Quality Paperback Book Club. He won three Emmys over six seasons producing Poetry Spots for WNYC-TV, received a Bessie Performance Award. Holman is the author of a CD, Out Crowd. Thank You, Ram Devineni devineni@dialoguepoetry.org Rattapallax Press 532 La Guardia Place Suite 353 New York, NY 10012 USA http://www.rattapallax.com http://www.dialoguepoetry.org ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 20:00:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "\\ MA NEWSLETTER DU DIMANCH=?ISO-8859-1?Q?E_n=B0005_\\?=" Subject: 17 mars 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ MA NEWSLETTER DU DIMANCHE n°005 \\ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ SOMMAIRE - SPECIALEMENT PATHETIQUE : 1 - SCOLIE d - 2 - CONFERENCE f) - 3 - SCOLIE e - 4 - RECENSION 15.03.02 - 5 - REFERENCE - 6 - SCOLIE f - 7 - CONFERENCE g) - 8 - SCOLIE g - +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 1 - SCOLIE d - Les temps sont durs, les destins les plus sordides propices à forger des romanciers à succès, sauvagement connus, ravissant une curiosité, ne pouvent faire l'économie de textes percutants, réactifs, dominés par la rage, un regard noir sur le monde, une vision glacée de la société... La curiosité doit se préciser, pour se dédouaner, surfaire son positionnement trop tranquille, à consommer des martyrs de l'obscur / indus' gothique, pas tant satanico-horrifique qu'anti-puritain : pour refuser l'apitoiement, convoite mal la gêne à simuler pour ne pas classer navrant ce qui rend toujours l'offusquation exactement surannée, exactement comme dans les journaux. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 2 - CONFERENCE f) - C'est ce qui fait que cela ne peut pas être une conférence. Ce serait trop attendre de l'intérêt que vous pouvez y porter. Il faudrait que je commence par vous dédouaner et que j'investisse dans la confiance nécessaire à ce que ça prenne une toute autre tournure. Seulement, étant donnée la situation, il n'est pas possible d'épuiser le thème sans y revenir, sans emprunter à d'autres : qui venaient, justement, pour l'occasion. Ô les détours du thème \ Ah \ la résolution se veut scandaleuse \ Ah \ Ah \ mais ses plaidoyers sont moins saisissants que la défense de l'inconséquente \ de dos, aussi, il peut y avoir grand contrôle | dans l'espèce de tenue | qui pose la détente, minaude une éventuelle noirceur : telle une posture \ révélatrice en permanence \ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 3 - SCOLIE e - Cela ne saurait aller sans absorber et sans s'exposer à la verve réprobatrice des hédonistes vitamineux - émetteurs de diagnostics terrorisants ou de préceptes sécuritaires intitulés préventifs, mais défenseurs d'une indépendance, d'abord - [et définitive monomanie addictophobe, avec possibilité de spécialités éparses]. Doublées de rengaines esthétisantes frelatées, les réprobations peuvent ne plus savoir ce qu'elles font, il arrive qu'elles se défendent d'être indiscrètes, de donner dans la confusion, de signer quelques crispations assurées. Les débats touffus sur le trop peu, le pas plus, le strict minimum, le grand maximum et le juste assez, appelent un mystère autour d'une bonne dose - à rompre à qui voudra lancer tant-mieux-pour grand-bien-leur. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 4 - RECENSION 15.03.02 - Mais qu'est-ce que le faux zèle que je lui ai administré ? Pour apparat, il a bien mis un palais impérial, ses codifications pour heureuses transcriptions avec tristes salutations. Avec ça, il va fort, continue ainsi en longues nombreuses pages. Le temps de sa détention a servi pour la narration de, son arrestation. Avant cela, il avait déjà une tonalité différente, les autres n'étant que des esquisses, plus riches qu'il ne le, comme Laforgue, Jules, avec encore quelques résonnances dotées, et un calepin salissant - sur lequel, évidemment - +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 5 - REFERENCE - "un printemps qui commence plus tôt que d'habitude est un printemps qui commence tard on dit que le printemps est parce qu'il ne fait ni trop chaud ni trop froid quand il pleut souvent le printemps on dit : le printemps parce que c'est la saison où un printemps est un printemps qui fait éclore beaucoup de fleurs le printemps est par le parfum des fleurs quand le soleil a de brillants rayons le printemps est le printemps est parce qu'il inspire la joie" (Olivier Cadiot, L'art poétic', POL, 1997, p. 124) +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 6 - SCOLIE f - Il est effectivement très important de témoigner d'un certain recul sur les gloses communes, il faut aller jusqu'à faire preuve d'une certaine impertinence. Pour autant, "une certaine impertinence" ne fait jamais vraiment des ravages, cela se ramène très vite à des petites remarques cocasses. Or, les petites remarques cocasses n'ont pas les mêmes incidences que n'importe quel ravage, même le plus petit. Une certaine impertinence procure à son destinataire un air pensif et régalé, faisant au plus des Mmm... Mmm..., alors qu'un ravage s'attaque à des préjugés plus profonds, crée plus de secousses, plus d'hésitations, voire quelques inquiétudes et des Euh... Euh... qui n'ont rien à voir +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 7 - CONFERENCE g) - à qui veut bien se faire l'oraison funèbre - et qui en aura gratification autant Qu'il s'en voudra formaliser, se répercutera là où il sait, qu'il y a à dénicher \ la pose de la non-pose \ à cause de la permanence : teigneuse et discrète. C'est ainsi, qu'en amour : plus qu'en psychologie : la connaissance de soi doit peaufiner le bonheur : Voilà qui ne saurait se faire sans le concours d'une espèce | coquinerie bien assez conne | pour ne pas s'attirer | les revers de la monstruosité | les colères castrées d'excentricité \ les emportements insignifiants, moins que trop amples. L'énumération précise : Ah / Ah / +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 8 - SCOLIE g - C'est une mécanique succulente parce qu'il en découle une affaire plutôt pathétique, avec ce que cela de frelaté, épris de liberté, de modernité, alors engagés pour quelques dépoussiérages lourds et lourds de références imposantes et para-para-académiques. Celles-ci exigent un bout de lorgnette, ne pourront pas se suffir d'un seul aspect désagréable : la patte est austère, d'effet aléatoire, bénéfique par nécessité, avec l'accompagnement automatique de bouseux admirateurs des courants les plus - à cause des déconstructions, souffrant honteusement de quelques réminiscences, aérées de démagogies pro-débutantes, contre-compétentes, bien sûr, mais par défaut, sous prétexte échéant que vaut mieux que patho-, aphasique, mais dressé pour ça. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ \\ MA NEWSLETTER DU DIMANCHE n°005 \\ 17 mars 2002, David Christoffel 20 exemplaires de cette newsletter seront intercalés, mardi, dans les missels de la Cathédrale de Luçon (en Vendée). [Recherche personne pour disseminer les 25 exemplaires de la n°004 parmi les cartes-postales du Musée des Beaux-Arts de Rennes.] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ mail à : fastes@free.fr ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 11:06:27 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: owner-realpoetik@SCN.ORG Subject: RealPoetik Mike Topp Mike Topp has been barred-for-life from better little magazines than you or I ever got into. He lives and works in a large, Eastern metropolis and can be reached at mike_topp@hotmail.com ROCK STAR Life’s too short. Like, once I read about this weird old woman who like had one dream in life. . . and that dream was to have sex with a salmon. She bought a live salmon at a fish market, you know, and like took it home to have sex with. This is where it gets weird, cuz like she was laying in a bathtub and like had the fish swim into her (where it counts). Then she like held it in there and like, poked its eyes and shit so that it would wiggle all around and give her the pleasure that she was looking for. But she ended up dying from it, cuz she bought a bad fish. The fish was infested with some kind of shrimp eggs and they got inside of her and grew into shrimps and then she died because of it. . . But, hey, it’s totally gross to you and me, but like, this is what this woman really wanted to do. . . and she did it! Like, if you tried having sex with a salmon and you get all fucked up and you end up dead with a fucking pussy full of shrimp, then at least you can look back at it all and think, "At least tried all that stuff that I wanted to try…" AUTHOR’S NOTE I broke my mother’s tailbone and came out butt-first (everyone thought I was smiling) when I was first born in Washington, D.C., during the Eisenhower years. A young man with chiseled hair and windblown features, I turned to poetry to divert my attention from drugs and sex. As a bohemian my typewriter was stolen but after a while I got married to a woman who had stolen a laptop from work. The shadow of a twisted hand across my home at times discouraged me but I remained true to my school and wrote almost every day. Although I was not a very good poet I got published a lot but I refused to compromise. The East Village was undergoing gentrification and we had entered the 1990s. I got divorced. I had no choice but to write pornography. Although I would love to stay and chat Mom’s home now and she’s really mad. BLUE VELVET My favorite moment in Blue Velvet is when Jeffrey and Sandy first meet. "Are you the one that found the ear?" Sandy asks. "Yeah. How do you know?" replies Jeffrey. "I just know, that's all." THINGS TO GIVE UP FOR LENT Dinner mints Collar stays Chopsticks Beets BLACK HOLES The black holes will be very hard to remove. Especially this one (old hole). SOURCE CODE I think I gave you the wrong source code last time we met because I was reading it upside down. It's 7734. THE TRUTH I need to have these little plastic animals around me because I often feel lonely. DEAR FRIEND I was in the army. As an infant. I carried messages in my diapers. No one dared to search them. But an informer turned me in. I was tortured by the enemy. I told them nothing. I escaped in the bathwater. Can you find it in your heart to send me some money? Yours sincerely, Krebs TROMPE L’OEIL I went to a fancy French restaurant called "Trompe L’Oeil." I couldn’t find the entrance. Mike Topp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 22:35:52 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: CIRCA 1987 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii CIRCA 1987 "introduction" : http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001581.html "mild aches: aware better path" : http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001582.html "sturb ipploag" : http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001583.html "Envy elope" : http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001584.html "dwins:uence" : http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001585.html [make sure URL is all on one line before clicking, or re-paste into "Locations:" window] Thanks for any attention you can spare. Jeffrey __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 14:38:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rachel Levitsky Subject: March 29 BELLADONNA*/NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ENJOY BELLADONNA* Friday, March 29th 7:00 pm with Gail Scott(My Paris, Main Brides, Spaces Like Stairs) & Carla Harryman(Gardener of Stars, The Words) ADDRESS/DIRECTIONS : Bluestockings Women's Bookstore 172 Allen Street, bet. Rivington & Stanton --F train to 2nd Ave. For Info: (212) 777-6028 *** BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES ON READERS: Gail Scott is the author of the novel My Paris (Mercury Press, Toronto, 2001), an experimental fiction set in 90s Paris and authored by a sad diarist whose travel companions include Walter Benjamin and Gertrude Stein. It was named one of the top 10 novels published in Canada in 1999 by Canada’ s book trade magazine Quill & Quire. Scott’s other books include the novels Main Brides, and Heroine, the essay collection Spaces like Stairs, and Spare Parts, short stories, to be reissued by Coach House Books in 2002. She is co-editor of Narrativity and works as a literary translator (shortlisted for the 2001 Governor-General’s award in translation) and is a teacher of creative writing in Montréal, where she lives. Carla Harryman is the author of Gardener of Stars, an experimental novel that explores the paradise and wastelands of utopian desire. She has published ten other books including two volumes of selected writing, There Never Was a Rose Without a Thorn, Animal Instincts: poetry, prose and plays; a hybrid novel, The Words after Carl Sandburg’s Rootabaga Stories and Jean-Paul Sartre; and a book-length dramatic work, Memory Play. Harryman’s most recent play, “Performing Objects Stationed in the Sub World” was premiered as a staged reading last year at Oxford Brookes University and will be read again in San Francisco in February 2002. Now titled “Stationed in the Sub World,” the play will open as a full production at Zeitgeist Theater in April in Detroit, where she lives. The BELLADONNA* Reading Series began in August 1999 at the then newly opened women's bookstore (New York's only) Bluestockings. In its two year history, BELLADONNA* has featured such writers as Erica Hunt, Fanny Howe, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Cecilia Vicuña, Lisa Jarnot, Camille Roy, Nicole Brossard, Abigail Child, Norma Cole and Lynne Tillman among many other experimental and hybrid women writers. Beyond being a platform for women writers, the curators promote work that is experimental in form, connects with other art forms, and is socially/politically active in content. Alongside the readings, BELLADONNA* supports its artists by publishing commemorative pamphlets of their work on the night of the event. Please contact Rachel Levitsky and/or visit the website if you would like to receive a catalog or hear more about our salons. *** There will be a short open reading before the featured readers. A $3 donation is suggested. http://www.durationpress.com/belladonna ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:55:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: George Bowering Subject: Re: Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >Whatever happened to Daryl Hine? > >-Aaron There is a name i havent heard for a long time. He grew up in New Westminster but I dont think any of the younger poets around here have heard of him. -- George Bowering Cannot untie knots. Fax 604-266-9000 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 01:23:37 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Olson's Head MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Just assembling the Raworth bibliography & wanted to know if anyone on this list would know anything about an ultra-obscure publication of Tom's called _The Auction of Olson's Head_. -- all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://pages.sprint.ca/ndorward/files/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 08:42:49 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Leddy Subject: bookstores in Manhattan? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm going to be in Manhattan for just a couple of days and am wondering--what are the best bookstores for poetry? (Saint Mark's? What else?) Thanks, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 10:13:58 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Long Subject: Spring Issue of The 2River View Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed 2River released today the 6.3 (Spring 2002) issue of The 2River View, with new poems by Masour Alajali, John Amen, Grace Bedwell, Teri Browning, Howard Good, Prasenjit Maiti, Spencer Ryan, John Sweet, and Phibby Venable; and musical notations by David Zvanut. You can read it by going to http://www.2River.org and clicking from there. Richard Long ====== 2River www.2River.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 13:12:37 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Whirl2@AOL.COM Subject: MARIE PONSOT | NELLY ROSARIO | WED MAR 20 | PRATT INSTITUTE Comments: To: MShechtman@brooklynchamber.com, jChan@brooklynchamber.com, larchibald@swbidc.org, raquel@nysia.org, fadu@nycedc.com, mythkiller@hotmail.com, events@thecyberscene.com, nora.finton@nyu.edu, PGalbis@aol.com, susanmci@hotmail.com, Picasya@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to invite you to Pratt Institute for the next Writers Live! event: MARIE PONSOT & NELLY ROSARIO this Wed., March 20, at 7 pm in Memorial Hall on the Pratt Institute campus, 200 Willoughby Ave, Brooklyn, NY (718) 636-3570 for more info As always, this reading is free and open to the public. Hope to see you there, Marcella Harb, Curator, Writers Live! www.pratt.edu/writerslive For more info on the authors: MARIE PONSOT Marie Ponsot is, according to The San Francisco Chronicle, "one of the most elegant, intelligent poets around." Her most recent collection of poems, Springing, will be published by Knopf in March 2002. Ponsot's other books of poetry include The Bird Catcher, which won the National Book Critics Circle Award in 1999, The Green Dark, Admit Impediment, and True Minds. Ponsot, who also translates books from the French, has taught in graduate programs at Columbia University, Queens College, Beijing United University, the Poetry Center of the YMHA, and New York University. Among her awards are a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts, the Delmore Schwartz Memorial Prize, and the Shaughnessy Medal of the Modern Language Association. NELLY ROSARIO About Song of the Water Saints, Nelly Rosario's debut novel, Julia Alvarez says, "Like a Caribbean Scheherazade, Rosario casts a spell on her readers with this saga of three generations of Dominican women whose yearning becomes our own," and Edwidge Danticat calls it "a gorgeous first novel, epic and poetic." Nelly Rosario, named a "Writer on the Verge" by The Village Voice Literary Supplement for 2001, also has an environmental engineering degree from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Born in the Dominican Republic, she now lives in Brooklyn. DIRECTIONS TO PRATT: By SUBWAY: Take the A, C, L or F train to Brooklyn Then connect to the G line, (which runs through Brooklyn and Queens) Get off at CLINTON/WASHINGTON station on the G line. Use the Washington Ave. exit, then walk on Wash. (toward the Jesus Saves sign) one block to DeKalb Ave, turn right and go one block to Hall St/St. James, the corner of the gated campus--- and if that gate is not open, walk down DeKalb to the first open gate--The Thrift Hall entrance, and continue down the main path to Memorial Hall. By CAB or Car Service: From the Brooklyn Bridge, exit bridge at Tillary Street. Turn left on Tillary. Right on Flatbush Ave. Left turn on Fulton st. Left turn on Lafayette Ave. Left turn on Clinton Ave. Right turn on Willoughby Ave. Go 3 blocks to Pratt Campus on your right. Stop at Pratt security booth (2nd entrance on right) for instructions to Memorial Hall. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 12:13:50 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Prevallet Subject: BoogCity calls for Lexicons MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Emergency Lexicon Work on the "Nuclear Posture Review" The News: Excerpts from a leaked version of a classified Pentagon nuclear weapons strategy document were posted on the Internet last week. The secret report, which was provided to Congress on Jan. 8 says the Pentagon needs to be prepared to use nuclear weapons against China, Russia, Iraq, North Korea, Iran, Libya and Syria. It says the weapons could be used in three types of situations: against targets able to withstand nonnuclear attack; in retaliation for attack with nuclear, biological or chemical weapons; or "in the event of surprising military developments." It is the last category, "in the event of surprising military developments" which diverts from business as usual. Here are some words from the report that would be useful to deconstruct. Put your OED's to work. Etymologize, historicize, contextualize, poeticize. Compare and contrast. Take words and use them in an alternate way. Emphasize hidden meanings. Find hyper-context. Research, invent, redefine. nuclear posture moderate delivery accuracy limited earth-penetrator capability high-yield warheads silo- and sea-based ballistic missiles multiple independent reentry vehicles limited retargeting capability hard and deeply buried targets (HDBT) mobile and relocatable targets chemical agent improved accuracy limited collateral damage New Triad offensive strike leg active and passive defenses responsive defense infrastructure Info: BoogCity is a New York City based community newspaper published by David Kirchenbaum. The Lexicon page is a regular feature. Submit: 300-500 words maximum paste submission into the body of e-mail (no attachments) Deadline: Tomorrow noon for the next issue or Monday April 1 for the following issue. Excerpts from the source: "Nuclear Posture Review" http://GlobalSecurity.org/wmd/library/policy/dod/npr.htm As a result of this review, the U.S. will no longer plan, size or sustain its forces as though Russia presented merely a smaller version of the threat posed by the former Soviet Union. Following the direction laid down for U.S. defense planning in the Quadrennial Defense Review, the Nuclear Posture Review shifts planning for America's strategic forces from the threat-based approach of the Cold War to a capabilities- based approach. This new approach should provide, over the coming decades, a credible deterrent at the lowest level of nuclear weapons consistent with U.S. and allied security. .... Second, we have concluded that a strategic posture that relies solely on offensive nuclear forces is inappropriate for deterring the potential adversaries we will face in the 21st century. Terrorists or rogue states armed with weapons of mass destruction will likely test America's security commitments to its allies and friends. In response, we will need a range of capabilities to assure friend and foe alike of U.S. resolve. A broader array of capability is needed to dissuade states from undertaking political, military, or technical courses of action that would threaten U.S. and allied security. U.S. forces must pose a credible deterrent to potential adversaries who have access to modern military technology, including NBC weapons and the means to deliver them over long distances. Finally, U.S. strategic forces need to provide the President with a range of options to defeat any aggressor. .... ''Nuclear weapons play a critical role in the defense capabilities of the United States, its allies, and friends. They provide credible military options to deter a wide range of threats ... Greater flexibility is needed with respect to nuclear forces and planning than was the case during the Cold War ... Nuclear-attack options that vary in scale, scope, and purpose will complement other military capabilities.'' .... “Today’s nuclear arsenal continues to reflect its Cold War origin, characterized by moderate delivery accuracy, limited earth-penetrator capability, high-yield warheads, silo- and sea-based ballistic missiles with multiple independent reentry vehicles, and limited retargeting capability.” .... “New capabilities must be developed to defeat emerging threats such as hard and deeply buried targets (HDBT), to find and attack mobile and relocatable targets, to defeat chemical or biological agents, and to improve accuracy and limit collateral damage.” An aside: In recent months, when Bush administration officials talked about the implications of Sept. 11 for long-term military policy, they have often focused on "homeland defense" and the need for an anti-missile shield. In truth, what has evolved since last year's terror attacks is an integrated, significantly expanded planning doctrine for nuclear wars. (from: LOS ANGELES TIMES Commentary, "Secret Plan Outlines the Unthinkable" by WILLIAM M. ARKIN, March 10 2002) Another aside: U.S. readiness to use nuclear weapons resides solely with the president. -- Kristin Prevallet Lexicons Editor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:35:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: anastasios.kozaitis@VERIZON.NET Subject: Re: Publishing on Demand In-Reply-To: <20020316061520.23166.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I believe that Black Classic Press in Baltimore has a docutech machine that will publish on demand. At 01:15 AM 3/16/2002, you wrote: >Hi, > >Can anyone with first-hand or even second-hand >knowledge recommend a reliable publish-on-demand >company? > >Thanks, > >Pete > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage >http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 18:34:47 -0500 Reply-To: WHITEBOX@EARTHLINK.NET Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: WHITE BOX Organization: WHITE BOX Subject: Treading on Kings: Protesting the G8 in Genoa... at WHITE BOX MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit WHITE BOX presentsÖ Joel Sternfeld Treading on Kings: Protesting the G8 in Genoa ______________________________________________________________ Opening reception: Friday, 22 March - 6-8pm ...through 27 April 2002 The 26th Summit Meeting of the G8, the informal discussion club of the leaders of the world's most industrialized nations which took place in Genoa, Italy in the summer of 2001 left hundreds of protestors arrested, 600 or more injured and one person dead. In an attempt to document this historic event in a manner that would equal voice to those who took to the streets, the artist /photographer Joel Sternfeld made portraits of demonstrators and recorded their responses to an essential question; why have you come to Genoa? These portraits with text and other related images: President Bush arriving at the Ducale Palace, blood on the floor of an elementary school being used as a dormitory after a midnight police raid, and a picture of a funerary box holding the cremated remains of Carlo Giuliani are intended to form a basis for discussion of the events in Genoa - and of the attendant issues of globalization. (Symposium + Book Signing - Saturday, 13 April 2002 / 5pm) WHITE BOX is a 501[c][3] not for profit arts organization. ______________________________________________________________ WHITE BOX 525 WEST 26TH STREET NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10001 - USA TEL 212.714.2347 / www.whiteboxny.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:01:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "William Harris (by way of Charles Bernstein )" Subject: Jazz Lover's Paradise Mime-Version: 1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit please forward to the the list ... JAZZ LOVER’S PARADISE AT PENN STATE At Penn State the weekend of April 5th and 6th will be a jazz lover’s paradise. On Friday, the 5th, the world renowned Archie Shepp and Roswell Rudd quartet (Shepp and Rudd, along with Andrew Cyrille and Reggie Workmam), will be joined for a performance in Schwab Auditorium at 8PM by the internationally known poet and activist Amiri Baraka. On Saturday the 6th, Wynton Marsalis and the Lincoln Center Orchestra will appear in Eisenhower Auditorium at 8PM. Shepp and Baraka are appearing as part of the symposium “Free Jazz and It’s Legacies: A Symposium on Black Music And American Culture.” The coincidence of Shepp and Baraka’s performances with that of Marsalis offers a wonderful opportunity to make jazz a subject of productive conversation. To this end, Professors William J. Harris and Paul Youngquist of the Department of English have organized the symposium around the tissues of free jazz--a radical black music which originated in the 1960spolitics, and the legacies and implications of this music. Panel discussions are scheduled for 1:30 to 5:00PM on Saturday the 6th, in Foster Auditorium in Pattee Library. Baraka and Shepp’s panel will be joined by the acclaimed music critic, John Szwedthe author of Space is the Place: The Lives and Times of Sun Raand Barry Kernfeld, the distinguished editor of The New Grove Dictionary of Jazz. The roundtable will discuss the subject of improvisation with Vincent Colapieto--a philosopher; Cecil Giscombe--a poet; Arthur Goldstein--a pianist; Elaine Richardson--a scholar-singer, and Vorris Nunley--a graduate student in English. The symposium and concert are free and open the public. For further information contact William J. Harris(wjh8@psu.edu) or Paul Youngquist(pby1@psu.edu) or Department of English (814-865-6384). ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 11:02:09 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading In-Reply-To: <003d01c1ccbc$3a3d5320$de5637d2@01397384> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Richard, As always, a thoughtful response. > but the other problem for me - if > its a problem - is that say versus some of the Language poets or some of the > post-post moderns or more improvisatory poets, her work looks tame. This > doesnt invalidate it... My objection to JG's poetry is not that is looks tame-- I love tame writing. William Stafford has a kind of tameness, and so does Dickinson, as you've pointed out. It's just that she doesn't seem to have much to actually say. The flickering, stuttering, clever-perspective thing seems to me to have become a shtick. You're right about the cleverness. Also, I think she has no sense of humor, or in terms of style, no elasticity. But let's not 'be dismissive of other poets'; you're right. Maybe we can be dismissive of other poems. If you find a good Jorie Graham poem, by all means, type it in & email it. -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:34:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Bassford Subject: Exoterica.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We apologize...we heard back from many of you saying our last email could not be accessed. We had written with news of WORD:The Jay Liveson Memorial Poetry and Music Festival on June 8th. To check out the ever-growing roster of poets and musicians, keep in touch by visiting our new website WWW.EXOTERICA.ORG for news of the reading series, the festival, great links, an interview with David Shapiro, and more. Exoterica...we'll be spreading the WORD... www.exoterica.org webdesign by jim@launchpub.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 08:54:03 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: 12hr update In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" _______ _ __ ___ _ |__ __| | /_ |__ \| | | | | |__ ___ | | ) | |__ _ __ | | | '_ \ / _ \ | | / /| '_ \| '__| | | | | | | __/ | |/ /_| | | | | |_| |_| |_|\___| |_|____|_| |_|_| _____ _____ ____ _ _ _ _____ ______ _____ |_ _|/ ____| _ \| \ | | | | __ \| ____/ ____| | | | (___ | |_) | \| |______ | | |__) | |__ | | __ | | \___ \| _ <| . ` |______| | | ___/| __|| | |_ | _| |_ ____) | |_) | |\ | | |__| | | | |___| |__| | |_____|_____/|____/|_| \_| \____/|_| |______\_____| | __ \ (_) | | | |__) | __ ___ _ ___ ___| |_ | ___/ '__/ _ \| |/ _ \/ __| __| | | | | | (_) | | __/ (__| |_ |_| |_| \___/| |\___|\___|\__| _/ | |__/ Synopsis: The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project began December 30, 1994. A `round-the-clock posting of sequenced hypermodern imagery by Brad Brace. The hypermodern minimizes the familiar, the known, the recognizable; it suspends identity, relations and history. The 12-hour ISBN JPEG Project ----------------------------- began December 30, 1994 Pointless Hypermodern Imagery... posted/mailed every 12 hours... a stellar, trajective alignment past the 00`s! A continuum of minimalist masks in the face of catastrophe; conjuring up transformative metaphors for the everyday... A poetic reversibility of events... A post-rhetorical, continuous, apparently random sequence of imagery... genuine gritty, greyscale... corruptable, compact, collectable and compelling convergence. The voluptuousness of the grey imminence: the art of making the other disappear. Continual visual impact; an optical drumming, sculpted in duration, on the endless present of the Net. An extension of the printed ISBN-Book (0-9690745) series... critically unassimilable... imagery is gradually acquired, selected and re-sequenced over time... ineluctable, vertiginous connections. The 12hr dialtone... [ see ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace/netcom/books.txt bbrace.laughingsquid.net/books.html ] KEYWORDS: Disconnected, disjunctive, distended, de-centered, de-composed, ambiguous, augmented, ambilavent, homogeneous, reckless... Multi-faceted, oblique, obsessive, obscure, obdurate... Promulgated, personal, permeable, prolonged, polymorphous, provocative, poetic, plural, perverse, potent, prophetic, pathological... Evolving, eccentric, eclectic, egregious, exciting, entertaining, entropic, erotic, entrancing, enduring... Every 12 hours, another!... view them, re-post `em, save `em, trade `em, print `em, even publish them... Here`s how: ~ Set www-links to - http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/12hr.html. Look for the 12-hr-icon. Heavy traffic may require you to specify files more than once! Anarchie, Fetch, CuteFTP, TurboGopher... ~ Download from - ftp.pacifier.com /pub/users/bbrace Download from - ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace Download from - ftp.rdrop.com /pub/users/bbrace Download from - ftp.eskimo.com /u/b/bbrace * Remember to set tenex or binary. Get 12hr.jpeg ~ E-mail - If you only have access to email, then you can use FTPmail to do essentially the same thing. Send a message with a body of 'help' to the server address nearest you: ftpmail@ccc.uba.ar ftpmail@cs.uow.edu.au ftpmail@ftp.uni-stuttgart.de ftpmail@ftp.Dartmouth.edu ftpmail@ieunet.ie ftpmail@src.doc.ic.ac.uk ftpmail@archie.inesc.pt ftpmail@ftp.sun.ac.za ftpmail@ftp.sunet.se ftpmail@ftp.luth.se ftpmail@NCTUCCCA.edu.tw ftpmail@oak.oakland.edu ftpmail@sunsite.unc.edu ftpmail@decwrl.dec.com ftpmail@census.gov bitftp@plearn.bitnet bitftp@dearn.bitnet bitftp@vm.gmd.de bitftp@plearn.edu.pl bitftp@pucc.princeton.edu bitftp@pucc.bitnet ~ Mirror-sites requested! Archives too! The latest new jpeg will always be named, 12hr.jpeg Average size of images is only 45K. * Perl program to mirror ftp-sites/sub-directories: src.doc.ic.ac.uk:/packages/mirror * ~ Postings to usenet groups: alt.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.12hr alt.binaries.pictures.misc alt.binaries.pictures.fine-art.misc * * Ask your system's news-administrator to carry these groups! (There are also usenet image browsers: TIFNY, PluckIt, Picture Agent, PictureView, Extractor97, NewsRover, Binary News Assistant, Newsfeeds) ~ This interminable, relentless sequence of imagery began in earnest on December 30, 1994. The basic structure of the project has been over twenty-four years in the making. While the specific sequence of photographs has been presently orchestrated for more than 12 years` worth of 12-hour postings, I will undoubtedly be tempted to tweak the ongoing publication with additional new interjected imagery. Each 12-hour posting is like the turning of a page; providing ample time for reflection, interruption, and assimilation. ~ The sites listed above also contain information on other transcultural projects and sources. ~ A very low-volume, moderated mailing list for announcements and occasional commentary related to this project has been established at topica.com /subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg -- This project has not received government art-subsidies. Some opportunities still exist for financially assisting the publication of editions of large (36x48") prints; perhaps (Iris giclees) inkjet quadtones bound as an oversize book. Other supporters receive rare copies of the first three web-offset printed ISBN-Books. A limited number of paid email subscriptions are now available! << http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/buy-into.html >> -- ISBN is International Standard Book Number. JPEG and GIF are types of image files. Get the text-file, 'pictures-faq' to learn how to view or translate these images. [ftp ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace/netcom/] -- (c) copyleft 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:40:02 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: Re: bookstores in Manhattan? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I like the Housing Works Used Bookstore at Crosby (the alley east of Broadway)and Houston. All the money raised by the bookstore goes towards housing and other programs for people with HIV and Aids. It can be hit and miss since its all donated books, but I always find treasures (last night I saw Anne Waldman's Iovis and Olsen's Maximus poems there). Also sometimes you can spot Tuli Kuperberg hanging out. Its got tables and chairs, cafe and nice restrooms. Brenda ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:45:52 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Publishing on Demand Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Scroggins Subject: Re: re Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ccdc$04bd70c0$3a06c143@Dell> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I can't find any obituary notices on Hine, but as recently as last year he published a set of translations, *Puerilities: Erotic Epigrams of The Greek Anthology* (Princeton UP) (tidbits for the man-boy set). I understand he's been mostly involved in classical translation recently, including a new bilingual Homer. Mark >I believe that he passed away several years ago, > > >Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:00:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: ...the end of human life In-Reply-To: <000201c1cde0$7d93ef60$2e5f3618@al.buf.adelphia.net.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Alan, well, since there is nothing else to do but act...unless we sit around and moan at slow decay...whimpering etc, etc., what do you think is to be done? Gene What is to be done - for me is to act, no matter how pessimistic I am - teaching is part of this; it's a question of impulse. I meant to write "raising the fist" btw - not "raising the first" - I think the phrase is from an old book of Bernard Henri-Levy. As atheist, I have trouble wait- ing as well for some spiritual pandemonium or salvation. It's a question for me of separation what seems to be a dark future from teleology. Alan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 13:16:56 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: | sym MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII | | | the world is perfect, not imperfect | negation is a quality of syntax; perfection is ikonic | negation is a decision; beyond inscription, the world lies | good is a quality of the world; evil is a quality of semiosis | goodness is meaningless; perfection is meaningless | meaning is a carving of the other by the other in the original face | writing inscribes; inscription is written | punishment is a quality of ethos; ethos is disembodied code | the book of nature knows no language | nothing is corrupted, nothing corruptible | semiosis squares the good and rounds the evil | disembodied code is the code of disembodiment | the meaningless is good and perfect | identity is meaningless | semiosis is the simultaneity of equivalent structures | occupation is inscription; inscription occupies | all is fluid, fractal, quantum within degrees | the world is balanced, not balanced | imbalance is eternal motion, the torsion of semiosis | decision is always quantum | the legibility of nature is only the nature of legibility | cross the chiasm, from meaning to meaningless | infinite information constructs a world | infinite information is meaningless | there is no deviation beyond inscription | perversion is a version of the carving of the other | the face is everywhere; the world has no face | the world has no carving; nothing is written in the world | organism inhabits the meaningless | the law of ownership is the ownership of law | ownership is among the imperfect and temporary | the code of disembodiment is post-mortem | whatever is said, is said after one | an inscription is meaningless, two inscriptions are unbalanced | saying something is never something saying | what is said, is meaningless | there is nothing of the world | a center is an instant | | "For it is only the finite that has wrought and suffered; | the infinite lies stretched in smiling repose." - Emerson | sym is world the | perfect, not imperfect a is negation | quality of syntax; perfection is ikonic a is negation | decision; beyond inscription, the world lies a is good | quality of the world; evil is meaningless; is goodness | perfection is meaningless a is meaning | carving of the other by the inscription inscribes; writing | is written a is punishment | quality of ethos; ethos is disembodied of book the | nature knows no language corrupted, is nothing | nothing corruptible the squares semiosis | good and rounds the evil is code disembodied | the code of disembodiment is meaningless the | good and perfect meaningless is identity | the is semiosis | simultaneity of equivalent structures inscription; is occupation | inscription occupies fluid, is all | fractal, quantum within degrees is world the | balanced, not balanced eternal is imbalance | motion, the torsion of semiosis always is decision | quantum of legibility the | nature is only the nature of chiasm, the cross | from meaning to meaningless constructs information infinite | a world is information infinite | meaningless no is there | deviation beyond inscription a is perversion | version of the carving of the is face the | everywhere; the world has no face has world the | no carving; nothing is written in the inhabits organism | meaningless of law the | ownership is the ownership of law among is ownership | the imperfect and temporary of code the | disembodiment is post-mortem said, is whatever | is said after one is inscription an | meaningless, two inscriptions are unbalanced is something saying | never something saying said, is what | is meaningless nothing is there | of the world is center a | an instant | is it "For | only the finite that has wrought lies infinite the | stretched in smiling repose." - Emerson | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 15:37:34 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/20/02 11:57:25 AM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: >Bill. I think you're right (or as "right" as one can be right!) in this > >discussion. Murat may be confusing value - or intrinsic value - with the > >Marxist (or other economic-philosohic-political) determinationof what a > >product is. What is "intrinsic value?" Class has a lot to do with money, in other words, the market value of your work as "product" in the cycle of production. Richard, as you yourself imply, if poetry became desirable like pop music, and some poets became through their "poems," wouldn't that change things at least in two ways: 1) if from a 10,000-dolla- a-year person you became a millionaire, don't you think this will change your class status? 2) and more important, if you were making millions out of your poems, don't you think that would affect the kind of poetry you will write. Don't you think you would write ways to "please" that market, in extreme cases, do market research, add "hooks" to your poems, etc., etc. These aspects make the poem a "product." Because, in poetry (particularly in the States), there is no such "ready public, the writing process has no such implicit contract, as the originator of the poem, with the public. This is both a limitation and a positive thing. The limitation: the question of a poem mirroring one's time, one's values (which art historically does) becomes more problematic. On the other, this lack of contract gives the poet, potentially at least, if he or she dares to acknowledge the reality of this position, an absolute freedom to experiment (acknowledging the possibility of absolute dismissal by the public). That's why I call poetry a consumption, a"process," and split it from its after-life in public. "Intrinsic value" is a deceptive term blurring the issue. The word gives the impression (in my opinion, the illusion) that there is a value "beyond," "above" market value. Actually, I think, that value is the psychological value to the poet/writer; its value as process, which is what the poet has to originate the process. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:30:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: bookstores in Manhattan? In-Reply-To: <000501c1ce8b$2f7bc0e0$2d10438b@computer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Labyrinth on 112th just off Broadway isn't bad either, and if by chnace they don't have the book, you can always check and the new Columbia/B&N place on 11th or at Papyrus on 113th. But Labyrinth has the distinction of having only "good" books -- ie academic, "literature" (no mass paperbacks, no genre books, no books with lurid covers, etc etc), and poetry. That makes it good for findng iction in a way because it's presorted, but the browsing experience is strangely altered by the lack of Steven King books to sneer at while on one's wy to buy the ;atest Geoffrey Hill poetry book in hardback... The B&N at 82nd & Bway and at 67th & Bway have decent poetry sections (alas, as there uysed to be an independent bookstore , Shakespeare & Co. around 83rd), but not as good as Labyrinth (btw all the books there are upsteairs; the really puny poetry section on the fiorst floor is supposed to be new books but they aren't that new imho; otoh they have great sales on the stairs). St. Marks is a Great Bookstore as none of the above are but I don't know if its poetry section is actually larger than the ones above. Another good place is Gotham Book Mart, located at 47th(?) St Btwn 6th - 7th Ave. (It's the diamond market street which has diamond stores and big fake diamonds at its intersections with avenues, and the store is half underground and a little hard to find therefore). It is only open business hours whihc is a pain. There you can find mostly used books and unfortunately the poetry section consists of some shelved books and a table with a huge pile of other books, but you can find things there that are nowhere else and you pay the price written on them originally. You can't go there with a title in mind and expect to get ot necessarily but there are great things in the pile. Gotham also has original drawings & books by Edmund Gorey, which are very expensive, and a lot of ordinary affordable Gorey stuff. It may be NYC's oldest bookstore. I think it makes that claim. But the stock is too aleatory to use the store as one's "regular". Gotham Book Mart is also known for hosting the Finnegan's Wake Society: (212) 226-8903 to find out meeting times. The meetins consist entiresly of reading aloud (!!!!) and figuring out allusions and glosses in Finnegan's Wake. The group has gone through the whole book once already but people are happy to be doing it again with new blood in the group. I went once and they were very friendly. When you go there, you have to have a copy of the Penguin Finnegan's Wake, and they give you a Society bookmark which has line numbers on it, so you can speak up and say, "on line bla, where it says..." Be prepared to laugh; the people there are very erudite but they have a sense of humor and obviously FW is a funny book. Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Michael Leddy Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 9:43 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: bookstores in Manhattan? I'm going to be in Manhattan for just a couple of days and am wondering--what are the best bookstores for poetry? (Saint Mark's? What else?) Thanks, Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 16:23:07 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: Crosstown Traffic with Wendy Kramer, @ SPT, SF, Sun 3/31 Comments: To: bcanton@ccac-art.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Small Press Traffic presents.... Sunday, March 31, 2002 at 2 p.m. Crosstown Traffic Wendy Kramer Our interdisciplinary series continues with performance and visual poet Wendy Kramer, from New York. Hosted by Taylor Brady. Wendy Kramer makes collage poems out of words and pictures to be performed, seen, touched, and heard. She will present two dance-related poems, "Cast-Away" and "Sentiment." Her work can be found on the Web. She works as a librarian in New York. All events are $5-10, sliding scale requested donation. Our events are free to SPT members, and CCAC faculty, staff, and students. Unless otherwise noted, our events are presented in Timken Lecture Hall California College of Arts and Crafts 1111 Eighth Street, San Francisco (just off the intersection of 16th & Wisconsin) Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:57:27 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Which of us is blaspheming and about what? That Jorie is good or bad or is this to Joe who said she "sucks"? But I appreciate your humour either way. Maybe its because I rambled on too long?! But in mater absentia: my mother having died in 1998 ... I'll suggest to some other personage of note: possibly Bill Manhire - the great (NZ) poet and potential ( temporaily) "honorary" member of the local Glitterati of Wellington (which is a rather dour and windswept city I'm told) - I think he stole some ideas from Jorie Graham: but he is probably well versed in the usages of soap as he is the pen or quill or what you will... Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Lewis" To: Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2002 11:45 AM Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading > blasphemy! tell you're mother I said to wash your mouth out with soap! > Karen > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:31:19 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I dont think that "working class poetry" (put like that) has much meaning (but certainly we are all I think in some way connected to some strand or admixture of class which coupled with our genotype has more or less significance at different times): I'm one better than you I've never bought a NEWcar! But every man and his dog in NZ owns a car except for some reason Wystan Curnow doesnt: I had to drive him from a reading he gave: which by the way was very interesting (not the drive but W C's reading) (althoughthe drive was interesting in a sort of way) (not as interesting as I imagine a drive with the younger Robert Creeley) ... in fact the working class are the first to buy cars and TVs and so on: but before this debate began I was thinking "what if we had a (greatly) more egalitarian world moving toward some war-free Utopia: now we are all (more or less) on an equal footing and how does the poetry go? What sort of poetry woulfd be written?) But I think that what Mao points out is true that the struggle between classes, intra class, and the various struggles of ideas (which have their origion way back in time possibly in societies where class as we know it, or think of, would be either absent or very different) of what is right and wrong, the struggle for production and so on will continue for many generations even if some kind of "advanced" system such as Socialism is in place in which the working class supposedly control the state and hence the means of production...possibly forever: it may be that such an egalitarian society is impossible: who knows .... I like the idea of writing things that are "meaningless"..that is they are thus "transcendent": they have there value intrinsically and no care for "outside" influences ideas or things such as class, politics, and so on: but in subtle ways we are influenced by these things (or the reception of what a writer writes is).... John Geraets, editor of "Brief" doesnt believe in politics per se, and focuses on aesthetics: which in some ways I can se aesthetics is non-political or non-class. But when a mag like his has writers who ignore vital issues in the world one starts to have misgivings. Is the obsession with the word and aesthetics becoming "brutalising"...ok I'm exaggerating a bit here..I dont agree with a friend of mine who said that he and Michelle Leggott are in a "closed shop", or thaht "they" are all post-modernists and thus it shows how post modernism leads (or can) to fascism (so can any ism so lead) but there is a sense of that - just as many of the contributors to Language poetry are influenced by Zukofsky (but one feels that they want to "own" Zukofsky) .. but they elide the significance (or paradox) of his connection with the racist (and certainly no friend of the working class) Ezra Pound, and the complex of his poetry being "difficult" and yet - in a subtle way - that difficulty is sometimes more politically significant than very crudely blasted out statemental or didactic work...Zukofsky's (perhaps - too - or near nuerotically?) devotion to his small, nuclear family, is a good thing, (or is it a turning away , a turning in and away from humanity?).... or can be, but conflicts with "socialism" ... in a simple sense I can feel for that - most of my life I've not been particularly "working class" in my symapthies ... in fact before S11 shocked me awake I was trying to "drift away" into a poeisis of my own. Switch off the TV and burn all newspapers without reading them: ignore the news..but it didnt work...The issues are complex. But interesting. Ramble completed....for now...Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "david.bircumshaw" To: Sent: Sunday, March 17, 2002 12:13 AM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be > Phew! > > I've been looking at the various twists on this thread with a mixture of > annoyance, interest and too a feeling of disempowerment. Now whatever else I > am I know for sure that I am 'working-class' insofar as the term has > meaning, allowing, as has been rightly pointed out, for the fluidities of > boundary in our world. I left school at sixteen, I've never owned a car, I > live in a tower-block, I've never been a manager or administrator. Etc. At > the same time I write, sometimes on themes that could be thought > 'working-class' but not with that label hanging in my mind. I write as one > of so many contingent, threatened human beings, beleaguered by the voids of > unanswerables yet loving the desperate necessary need for rhythm, form, > structure and coherence conjured from their opposites. > > That matters of 'class' do impinge on the reception, circulation, validation > of poetry I have no doubt: living in England it's rather hard not to notice > such matters, at the same time I feel very wary of people pasting definition > onto working-class poetry. I suspect the desire to 'control' always. > > And that's all. > > Best > > Dave > > > David Bircumshaw > > Leicester, England > > Home Page > > A Chide's Alphabet > > Painting Without Numbers > > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Barrett Watten Subject: Lost America of Love Comments: cc: Tim Murphy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Just published: "The Lost America of Love: A Genealogy," a rereading of Sherman Paul's 1981 book on Creeley, Dorn, and Duncan. The New Americans, it turns out, are the royal road to obdurate textuality, ideology critique, and authoritarian will. The essay appears in a special issue of Genre on "Desert Island Texts," the conceit of which is that one is to write about a book one would like to be stranded on a desert island with. It turned out that I ended up with a book I did not much like, but had all the time in the world to write an essay on--one that is retrospective in many senses. The issue (vol. 33, nos. 3-4, Fall/Winter 2000) should be in most college or university and even public libraries, and contains desert island disquisitions by Jonathan Culler, Marjorie Perloff, Charles Altieri, Katherine Hayles, Vincent Leitch and others. All critics. I am not quite sure what I am doing on that island. If you can't find it at a library, you could contact the editor, Tim Murphy, Dept. of English, Univ. of Oklahoma, Norman, OK 73019, or by e-mail at . Barrett Watten ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 09:43:17 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: john beer Subject: Re: re Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ccdc$04bd70c0$3a06c143@Dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I've got a volume of translations he did from the Greek Anthology, published last year by Princeton UP (called Puerilities). I gather he's still extant. The book's worth looking at--witty and smutty, like the original. Best, John --- Ron wrote: > I believe that he passed away several years ago, > > > Ron __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:05:41 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: AWOL journals? In-Reply-To: <33DB6DF9C51BD511BC4B00D0B75B2D8101708635@esfpb03.dol.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I'm doing a little spring cleaning/poetry house-keeping, and realized that I haven't heard back from the following journals despite my best efforts to contact them, and each of them has had my work for more than a year and a half. Anyone have any info on any of these? Backchannel would be great, though maybe this info is useful to others as well... Dirigible Nine to Zero Big Allis Catalytic 6500 Limes Times Nine Into the Teeth of the Wind Two Girls Review Thanks, Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:26:25 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Kimmelman, Burt" Subject: NYC Reading on 3/31 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maureen Owen Ed Foster Burt Kimmelman Poets for Choice at Ceres A Benefit Reading for Planned Parenthood of New York Ceres Gallery 584 Broadway, Room 306 NYC Thursday, March 21st 7:30 PM ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:57:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: re Daryl Hine In-Reply-To: <000b01c1ccdc$04bd70c0$3a06c143@Dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe so, but he seems to have been maintaining a website until last year anyway. http://www.quarterstaff.on.ca/DarylHine/home.html Hal Serving the tri-state area. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard@earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard { I believe that he passed away several years ago, { { { Ron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:31:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bill Berkson Subject: Berkson in New York MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Bill Berkson Reads from His Poetry Poetry City Teachers & Writers Collaborative 5 Union Square West, 7th floor New York March 28, 7:30 p.m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:31:33 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ? Gene -----Original Message----- From: Karen Lewis To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:40 AM Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading >blasphemy! tell you're mother I said to wash your mouth out with soap! >Karen ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 23:34:08 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yep, yep. real revolution when laid out stoned. that'll change society. in fact, that's just the sort of revolution those guys want. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Gatza To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:47 AM Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution >Pre-modernist surrealists >"L'amore di Isidore Ducasse >conte di Lautreamont" > > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary >avant-gardism.) :) > > > >The drug is the revolution of body / mind from the ageless reason. It is the >frontier story. One person on a quest to find what is there. It is a lonely >quest full of hardships but one fraught with adventure. It turns surrealism >to realism. That factor alone makes time drip. > > > > Best, Geoffrey > > >Geoffrey Gatza >editor BlazeVOX2k2 >http://vorplesword.com/ > __o > _`\<,_ > (*)/ (*) > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich >Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 12:05 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: working class poetry and The Myth of Revolution > >Ron Silliman wrote: > >> To confuse those people with $150K networking >consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan >to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before >Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think >of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty >incoherent picture.< > > >(It may be a sign of my own creeping conservatism, but >I personally feel uncomfortable with gratuitous >vilification of financial industry professionals. As >if there were no James Sherry. And now especially, >after the wholesale slaughter of them in the tens of >hundreds and the leveling force of the Grim Reaper's >scythe has painfully revealed them to be/to have been >little more than workers in their own right. But >that's not my point here . . .) > > >Isn't all this discussion of class and class >obligations within poetry missing its propelling >factor, without any corollary sense of ~revolution~ >and the poet-revolutionary? Any attempted analysis of >class, even from a rightist consumer-exploitative >stance, has its basis and origin in, of course, Marx's >class theories. And that Marxist, post-Marxist or >quasi-Marxist always took its motivating force aginst >class from variously manifested versions of >"revolution." > >I have recently been reinvestigating Surrealism, . . . >which partly lost its saliency because the >"engagement" [pronounced "on-gozh-mon-t'"] of >Existentialist commitment segued better into the >concrete '68 revolutions, . . . and its genuine, >troubled political dimension: Breton co-authored a >paper with Trotsky, many Surrealists "defected" from >the Surrealist Revolution into Communist Party >membership, etc.; so, it's much on mine my mind how, >where, and when both real collaboration with >"revolutionary" political movements and social forces >or a ~myth~ of revolution fuelled the XXth century >avant-garde we're the inheritors of. > >The line forward from Surrealism and the October >Revolution is fairly easy to draw: Surrealism out of >the more short-lived, nihilistic and less articulated >Dada forward into Lettrism, Situationism, and perhaps >Lacan and post-structuralism. But I find myself >faltering --- I need more research or education into >the pre-history of Modernism --- in trying to trail >the line backward chronologically. The Modernist >precursors, the Impressionists in painting and Les >Symbolistes in poetry, although formally often >continuous with the Cubisms and -isms that flowed out >of or were spawned in reaction against them, on the >face of things do not exactly appear to be >~revolutionary~ in the same sense: rather, the Manet >depictions of men in waist coats and top hats as the >~celebration~ of haute bougeoisie, the Monet leisure, >etc., and, in poetry, end-of-an-era decadence rather >than a generative "revolution,"--- a decadence, >albeit, whose obscurantism remains larger the >prototype and starting point of Modernist and >post-modern obscurantisms, including the current >"asyntactical." > >However, despite the occasional formal resemblances, >--- and I know that here and there there must indeed >have been counter examples of sympathies for the >emergent splinter group pre-October Socialists and >utopians that I just am uneducated about, such as (?) >the younger American Whitman or Hawthorne's and the >Transcendalists' Fourier communes --- these >precursors, again, rather than being anti-"capitalist" >seem to typify an ~epitome~ of capital, and their >aesthetic revolution to be on the plane of, say, >innovation in the fashion design of ~haute couture~ >clothes, glass stemware (Lalique, Tiffany), and such. > > >The ~ultra-moderne~ rather than Modernist >"revolution." > >For want of a better word, I'm thinking of that high >capitalist ~semblable~ of later anti-capitalist >avant-garde as "High Style." (Maybe it's a >Mannerism.) Regardless, it represents a legitimate >moment where formalist relatedness conceals political >antithesis, and demonstrates a Modernism that was >fully dedicated to capital, rather than class >revolution. > > >(And there was pre-Modernist or even anti-Modernist, >non avant-garde revolutionary art: the realist >classicism of Jean-Louis David's ~Tennis Court Oath,~ >etc., which commemorated political upheavals and >~coups d'etat.~) > > >And, --- pessimistically? --- I wonder if we haven't >come full cycle and, fin-de-siecle again, at the >turning point of both centuries, whether our >particular historical branch --- "hippy" revolutionary >Beat > Black Mountain > Language --- hasn't had the >revolutionary myth effectively drain out of it, --- so >that our current uneasy condition is a ~vestigial~ lip >service to "revolution" but a reversion to High Style >"bourgeois"/middle class conservatism. The >discrepancy between the lived careerism and MFA-ing of >poetry, the (first generation) New York School >buttoning up back into shocking neckties and blazers >versus the Beat dishevelment, (the journal ~Fence~?) >--- aren't we in a position like the earliest >Modernists, living "the good life," fully trafficking >in the pleasures of capital, and ~only~ observing a >superficial (hypocritical?) ~trace~ >pseudo-revolutionariness in formal aesthetic >experimentalism (an experimentalism that has, >meanwhile, obviously become its own paradoxical >conservatisim of an "alternative tradition," perhaps >in fact the ~sole~ keepers of tradition)? > >The point being that, without revolution, including a >revolutionary ideology for poetry (~Revolution dans la >Langue Poetique~?), class is merely class,--- and >discussion about its frictions is just moot, neither >here nor there: it's all missing its necessary >leverage ("revolution"). > >...................................................... > >Incidentally,--- > >(Any "revolutionary" agenda, of course, is currently >badly compromised or stifled, like the tepid street >protests against the recent World Economic Forum, by >revolution's indistinguishability from terrorism, or, >for that matter, berserk schizophrenic violence [the >newspaper-certified "schizophrenic" shooting up a post >office, and Baden Meinhof-ish shooting up a post >office], and the reasonable-seeming total clamp-down >of new social controls and revoked civil liberties.) > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary >avant-gardism.) :) > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage >http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:28:48 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Aaron. a Jorie Graham fan will probably come to her rescue, but a thing I noticed when I did a bit of reviewing (not as impressive as it sounds, a brief stint, but interesting) was that poets that I found were "philosophically" or and thus poetically not initially interesting: or who others who maybe "should know" "knew" were bad - however one defines bad - turned out often to have written a number of good poems. This was because, as a reviewer: possibly in some respects and sometimes the best readers are reviewers - it should be a serious business - I had to look very closely at the poems. Poems, that, in a mag, I would probably give up on: but when I "zoomed in" so to speak these poets gave me pleasure. But I presume you've had a close look at Graham's poetry...I havent really: I cant be a Harold Bloom and read everything in the Universe, but I will send a poem of hers if I get "turned on" by anything she's written... As to "tame" writing, I meant "challenging" formally or "cutting edge" and so on: Dickinson is formally original: and of course was and is an original. (I wouldnt call her tame - but I think I know what you're implying) To be honest, in one sense I find her difficult, because I have difficulty with abstractions .. but the meaningfulness of Dickinson (in poems I have really been moved by..what term to use! ?) is beyond mere literal and discursive or narrational meaning..in a way she was a mystic: a seer a poet...a real poet..they are always passed over. A great poet may not do anything for the "advancement" of lit. I think Stein is great and did, Shakespear possibly great but didnt...but my reactions, these are my reactions...I think when you say she has nothing "meaningful" to say you are actually saying she hasnt got a poetic voice: I havent read Finnegan's Wake but one day i heard an excerpt of Joyce reading it and that convinced me that it is a great poem: some of Auden's early poems are as haunting as the best of Yeats but God knows what either of them are talking about, Ahsbery is - , the langpo's are - I - you - he - she - look I;m breaking up! So I'll leave the Big Suck question to a learned J Grahamist (for now) Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 5:02 AM Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading > Richard, > > As always, a thoughtful response. > > > but the other problem for me - if > > its a problem - is that say versus some of the Language poets or some of the > > post-post moderns or more improvisatory poets, her work looks tame. This > > doesnt invalidate it... > > My objection to JG's poetry is not that is looks tame-- I love tame writing. > William Stafford has a kind of tameness, and so does Dickinson, as you've > pointed out. It's just that she doesn't seem to have much to actually say. > The flickering, stuttering, clever-perspective thing seems to me to have > become a shtick. You're right about the cleverness. Also, I think she has > no sense of humor, or in terms of style, no elasticity. > > But let's not 'be dismissive of other poets'; you're right. Maybe we can be > dismissive of other poems. If you find a good Jorie Graham poem, by all > means, type it in & email it. > > -Aaron > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:35:11 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit So: you like Graham or you dont? If you know a good poem: you can prove she's good to Aaron by sending him an example... but seriously, how do we evaluate or differentiate good and bad poems? Aaron thinks her "cleverness" simply hides a shallowness: I dont know, I'm putting a bob each way as usual. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fargas Laura" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 10:17 AM Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading > > April 13 - Jorie Graham, 7:30 p.m. (reception and signing follows) > > > I thought we already decided Jorie Graham sucks? > > Maybe that was another list. > > -Aaron >>> > > And the weight of earned authority on this list certainly resolves *that* > fucking issue for me. > > Laura > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 18:14:49 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: saudade@ATT.NET Subject: Re: bookstores in Manhattan? gotham street bookmart > I'm going to be in Manhattan for just a couple of days and am > wondering--what are the best bookstores for poetry? (Saint Mark's? What > else?) > > Thanks, > > Michael ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 14:18:40 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: * British poets HALSEY, MONK, CORLESS-SMITH, Thurs March 21 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives presents An evening with British poets ALAN HALSEY, GERALDINE MONK & MARTIN CORLESS-SMITH Thursday March 21, 7:30 pm $7 donation @ The Unitarian Center 1187 Franklin (at Geary) -ALSO- Thursday March 21, 3:30 pm free @ The Poetry Center an open discussion on New British Poetry Three of Britain's outstanding contemporary poets make a rare appearance: * ALAN HALSEY, born in London in 1949, is a poet, book dealer, publisher, and graphic artist, whose remarkable works ("fierce and quiet . . . determined, and without illusion, the kind of poetry we need") include A Robin Hood Book (West House), The Text of Shelley's Death (Five Seasons), and Wittgenstein's Devil: Selected Writing 1978-1998 (Stride). He ran the Poetry Bookshop in Hay-on-Wye from 1981-96, and lives with Geraldine Monk in Sheffield. =2E . . 49. White crows. 50. Plains beyond the cliffs. We asked the dice for direction. 51. The city was clear through the ice. Rooves broken in but good mortar in the walls and the flesh like wax on the bodies. Men clinging to the women like priests to their 'suns.' 52. Further north than men ever journeyed. 53. We were possessed and dispossessed, poor fish, freely caught. 54. Our dreams are simple. 55. Without blame. (from "55 Texts for the Journey") * GERALDINE MONK was born in Blackburn, Lancashire, in 1952, and is celebrated as a reader and performer of "genuine word magic . . . a wonderful poet: revelatory, intense, ever surprising." She regularly works with improvised musicians; her collaboration with Martin Archer, Angel High Wires, was issued on CD by Voiceprint in 2001. Her recent books include Noctivagations (West House), Interregnum, a sequence of poems on the Pendle Witches (Creation Books), and The Sway of Precious Demons: Selected Poems (North and South). How long have we known songs grow not on trees -- longer than longings may spring unrestrained sing yeah -- sing nay sing-sigh. (from "Songings & Strangerlings") Halsey's and Monk's works have appeared in many anthologies, including Conductors of Chaos (Picador 1996), Other: British and Irish Poetry since 1970 (Wesleyan UP 1999) and Anthology of Twentieth-Century British & Irish Poetry (Oxford UP 2001). * Martin Corless-Smith is from Worcestershire, England, and has lived in the U.S. since 1992. His books ("highly original" works of "a remarkable emotional range") include Complete Travels, (West House Books 2000) and Of Piscator (University of Georgia Press 1998). His poetry "manages the almost impossible: to make contemporary techniques combine with the traditional in such a way that he turns on its head both the old and the new" (Chelsea). He has also edited an Anthology of Anonymous Middle English Lyrics, forthcoming from Marsilio Press. He has an MFA from the Iowa Writers Workshop and a PhD from the University of Utah, and is currently an Assistant Professor of English at Boise State University. He also has an MFA in painting. He is married to the poet Catherine Wagner and together they spend half the year chasing around England. maundering child cant hear the ousel ou la mavis sweet who sing the matitudinal (from "Songs, or An Arrangement of Short Lyrics According to Tone") THE UNITARIAN CENTER is located at 1187 Franklin Street at the corner of Geary on-street parking opens up at 7:00 pm from downtown SF, take the Geary bus to Franklin THE POETRY CENTER is located in Humanities 512 on the SW corner of the San Francisco State University Campus, 1600 Holloway Avenue 2 blocks west of 19th Avenue on Holloway take MUNI's M Line to SFSU 28 MUNI bus or free SFSU shuttle from Daly City BART * * * Coming up: March 23 Cecil Taylor, plus Tony Seymour & Blake More in tribute to Beat generation poet Bob Kaufman April 3 Maxine Chernoff & Paul Hoover April 11 Jay Wright April 18 Kevin Davies & Kevin Killian April 23 Los Delicados April 25 Kazuko Shiraishi & Wadada Leo Smith: an evening of poetry & music May 2 Murat Nemet-Nejat, an evening of contemporary Turkish poetry May 2 Student Awards Reading May 9 Bob Harrison & Andrew Levy, CRAYON reading w/ contributors: Chris Daniels (reading Fernando Pessoa), Jean Day, Hung Q. Tu, & Tsering Wangmo Dhompa Details at http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit/readings/readings.htm#current_season =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 20:02:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: shameless etc In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Callaloo 25:1 Special Issue Jazz Poetics edited by Brent Edwards, Farah Jasmine Griffin and Maria Damon Bob Kaufman A Special Section edited by Maria Damon pp. 103-231. Featuring work by POETIX notables Aldon Neilsen, Giovanni Singleton, Harryette Mullen, Daniel Carter, Will Alexander, etc etc. Plus a range (renga) by me, lisa samuels, jordan davis, gabrielle welford, cris cheek, and jorge guitart. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:08:47 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: Re: John Clarke Interrogated at the US Border MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/20/02 12:30:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, Bgcoultas writes: > Subj: Re: John Clarke Interrogated at the US Border > Date: 3/20/02 12:30:40 PM Eastern Standard Time > From: Bgcoultas > To: psgood@hotmail.com > > > > > Hi Everyone, > This fall Bernadette Mayer and Philip Good were stopped at the US/Canadian > Border by the Canadian authorities for 2 hours because they said they were > entering Canada to give a poetry reading. Here's a poem Philip wrote about > it. > > > >> Vancouver >> >> When you get off the train don't say, "We're here for a poetry reading." >> and waiting beyond the boarder is a man holding a sign that reads, >> "UTOPIA" >> many people stopped and wondered while others said, "I want to go with >> you." >> The fog covered Black Mountains don't care if you entered the old growth >> in >> town sushi bars greet us and on the streets vagabonds bum smokes Ginsberg >> walked here and so did Dinsmore, Good and Mayer. At last the world didn't >> end because this city is the perfect distraction >> >> --Philip Good >> > > > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:42:08 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: CIRCA 1987 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I liked these: I had a quick look and have added them to my favourites: I always find this kind of stuff interesting and it doesnt bother me if (initially at least or even never) no "wider" meaning than my initial response is gleaned: or even if it looks like something out of "in the American trtee" ..doesnt matter. I liked the one (they were all interesting) that goes "good is... " and " goodness is ... " and so on in a list: it gave me an idea for a way of working. Which is one of the things that the many strains of Language Poetry can do: the possiblilities are not exhausted even if as you point out in your "bio" there are a lot of poets who are derivative of it or seem so: that may not matter. I think though that you have inadvertently "hit" on a way of dealing with the "issue" .. I found the bio interesting and that coupled with the poems: and some leadup to each or commentary would distinguish you from the "dour" "here it is YOU figure it all out" ..well, yes, up to a point, but some comments like the ones you gave would amake a reader (say the introvert you more or less were - I was like that in my late teens and early 20s: used to agonise whether - or even where to get - the right kind of shoes: and clothes, or what I would ever say to any one: couldnt understad what peole were all talking aobout or what: so I used to stay away and say nothing...but I think more people are interested in those bio things than you think: that's why i like the idea of Robert Lowell's "Life Studies" ... I say the IDEA of unless someone accuses me of liking or promoting Lowell (that's a different issue)...I mean his method of working: (in another direction Williams's "Spring and All" with the prose/poetry alternations. Any 'ow: my response for what its worth. Life is once: lets all talk. Thanks for those links, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeffrey Jullich" To: Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 6:35 PM Subject: CIRCA 1987 > CIRCA 1987 > > "introduction" : > http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001581.html > > "mild aches: aware better path" : > http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001582.html > > "sturb ipploag" : > http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001583.html > > "Envy elope" : > http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001584.html > > "dwins:uence" : > http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001585.html > > > > [make sure URL is all on one line before clicking, or > re-paste into "Locations:" window] > > Thanks for any attention you can spare. > > Jeffrey > > > > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:16:24 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brenda Coultas Subject: Laird Hunt nominated for firecracker award MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Everyone, I just wanted to pass this on, Laird Hunt's novel The Impossibly is a=20 finalist for a firecracker award -- an independent press thing.=A0 There are= =20 other awards besides fiction so it might be good to check it out. Try=20 www.firecrackerbooks.org Best,=20 Brenda Coultas ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:16:49 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Rodrigo Toscano Subject: practice bestride practice MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear David (Bircumshaw) What a breath of fresh air your post. Out. Early. Today. On the way to work. Writing poetry in snatches. There. And in transit. Rodrigo Toscano New York City "Phew! I've been looking at the various twists on this thread with a mixture of annoyance, interest and too a feeling of disempowerment. Now whatever else I am I know for sure that I am 'working-class' insofar as the term has meaning, allowing, as has been rightly pointed out, for the fluidities of boundary in our world. I left school at sixteen, I've never owned a car, I live in a tower-block, I've never been a manager or administrator. Etc. At the same time I write, sometimes on themes that could be thought 'working-class' but not with that label hanging in my mind. I write as one of so many contingent, threatened human beings, beleaguered by the voids of unanswerables yet loving the desperate necessary need for rhythm, form, structure and coherence conjured from their opposites. That matters of 'class' do impinge on the reception, circulation, validation of poetry I have no doubt: living in England it's rather hard not to notice such matters, at the same time I feel very wary of people pasting definition onto working-class poetry. I suspect the desire to 'control' always. And that's all. Best Dave David Bircumshaw Leicester, England" ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 10:27:22 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: also seeking current email for Marcella Durand MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Merci Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 03:57:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: lee ann brown Subject: Vote for Cunt-Ups! Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dodie Bellamy's _Cunt-Ups_ published by Tender Buttons is up for this cool FIRECRACKER award- go now to http://www.firecrackerbooks.org and "this here ballot thing" and Please cast your vote NOW! (see below for more) Love, Lee Ann the editrix and come to the May 3rd party too! LAIRD HUNT is up for best FICTION ! >---------- >Hey all- > >Vote in this year's Firecracker Awards on the best in independent >publishing at http://www.firecrackerbooks.org. > >Cunt Ups by Dodie Bellamy (the most intensely sexual non-linear >love poem that you'll ever read) is nominated for Best Poetry. >We love this release by Tender Buttons Press so much that it's >available on our website. Give us a call at 212-673-2502 or email >Chris at chris@softskull.com. Check it out at: >http://www.softskull.com/catalog/bellamy/cuntups.html > >About Cunt Ups: > >"Throw on the switch, plug into the mediating machine, >the flesh-object writes back, becomes subject, suspect, >the gaze cut-up and fed back into vibrating loops of >uncontainable desire. > =8BDavid Buuck > >You Are Being Lied To (Disinformation Books) edited by Russ Kick >and featuring our own Nick Mamatas and Mickey Z is up for >Best Non-Fiction. Check it out at: >http://www.disinfo.com/pages/article/id1164/pg1/ > >See you at the party! > >Tennessee > Soft Skull > >http://softskull.com/ Lee Ann Brown Tender Buttons PO Box 13, Cooper Station NYC 10276 (718) 782-8443 home - (646) 734-4157 cell "Harmless amulets arm little limbs with poise and charm." =8B Harryette Mullen, Trimmings (Tender Buttons Books) ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:15:37 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Dickison Subject: * Cecil TAYLOR, et al., tribute to Bob KAUFMAN, Sat March 23, 3:00 pm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In tribute to Beat Generation poet Bob Kaufman CECIL TAYLOR plus TONY SEYMOUR & BLAKE MORE Saturday March 23, 3:00-5:30 pm, free San Francisco Public Library, Koret Auditorium 100 Larkin Street an afternoon of poetry in performance presented by San Francisco Public Library co-sponsored by The Poetry Center Note: Mr. Taylor will not be playing the piano. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Steve Dickison, Director The Poetry Center & American Poetry Archives San Francisco State University 1600 Holloway Avenue ~ San Francisco CA 94132 ~ vox 415-338-3401 ~ fax 415-338-0966 http://www.sfsu.edu/~newlit ~ ~ ~ L=E2 taltazim h=E2latan, wal=E2kin durn b=EE-llay=E2ly kam=E2 tad=FBwru Don't cling to one state turn with the Nights, as they turn ~Maq=E2mat al-Hamadh=E2ni (tenth century; tr Stefania Pandolfo) ~ ~ ~ Bring all the art and science of the world, and baffle and humble it with one spear of grass. ~Walt Whitman's notebook ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 09:45:31 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Small Press Subject: seeking email for Sianne Ngai Comments: To: yedd@aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Please let me know Sianne's email, apprec, b/c cheers Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director Small Press Traffic Literary Arts Center at CCAC 1111 Eighth Street San Francisco, California 94107 415/551-9278 http://www.sptraffic.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 14:37:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: New Courses at the trAce Online Writing School (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 16:05:33 +0000 From: trace@ntu.ac.uk To: sondheim@panix.com Subject: New Courses at the trAce Online Writing School Hi Here at trAce we thought you might like to hear about the new courses at the trAce Online Writing School. This Spring trAce celebrates its first year of teaching by adding yet more new ideas: * a permanent Online Writers' Workshop with two resident tutors * accredited courses in Fiction and Teaching Online * opportunities to choose from our list of proven popular courses * a chance to save money with Early Bird booking fees * courses now extended to TEN weeks including a free induction week to suit your abilities * one-time discount for returning students - 10 UK pounds off any course (may not be used in conjunction with any other offer) ONLINE WRITERS' WORKSHOP - join for as long as you like Introductory Offer - 4 weeks for 28 UK pounds The Online Writers' Workshop runs all year round and is hosted by two resident tutors. We aim to provide advice and support for both general creative writing plus new media writing and webdesign. The Workshop provides an informal area for sharing work, learning new skills, and working collaboratively. Content and emphasis will vary depending upon the resident tutors and the interests of the current participants. Sign up in blocks of 4 weeks, or even for a whole year. Hosts include: Randy Adams; Carolyn Guertin; Peter Howard; Karen King; Kate Pullinger; Sharon Rundle; Alan Sondheim. LINK COURSES Extended to 10 weeks including free induction week Early Bird fee 140 UK pounds ANIMATED POETRY IN FLASH with Peter Howard THE ART OF SCREENWRITING with Bonnie O'Neill ARTICLE AND FEATURE WRITING with Mary Ann Diorio DESIGNING WEB-BASED NARRATIVES with Carolyn Guertin EXPERIMENTAL WRITING with Alan Sondheim FICTION with Jean Chapman, Kate Pullinger, Sue Richardson or Sharon Rundle GETTING SERIOUS - HOW TO REVISE YOUR POEMS with NP Hunt INTRODUCTION TO THE INTERNET FOR WRITERS with Helen Whitehead TEACHING ONLINE with Helen Whitehead TRAVEL WRITING FOR FUN AND PROFIT with Caron James WEB DESIGN WORKSHOP with Randy Adams WRITING CHILDREN'S FICTION with Karen King LINK FREE INDUCTION WEEKS Courses include a free induction week before formal teaching begins. Whether you are new to learning online, or simply need a refresher, the induction course contains a range of learning materials to suit your needs and is hosted by an experienced trainer. DISCOUNT FOR RETURNING STUDENTS If you took a course at trAce between June 01 and April 02, you qualify for a one-time discount of 10 UK pounds off any course or the online workshop (may not be used in conjunction with any other offer). Please quote Code RTYR1 when booking. "This course allowed me to focus on my writing in a way I never have in 'realtime' classes because there aren't the distractions of daily meetings, but it had all the advantages of other people's considered responses, as well as a thoughtful, honest and skilled tutor who seemed to know just how to make us push into new zones. And all being online, you don't lose most of the comments and responses as you do listening in a room, you download them to think about." Student, 2001 For full information about courses and tutors throughout the year go to http://tracewritingschool.com or call +44 (0)115 8483533 Helen Whitehead trAce Online Writing School The Nottingham Trent University Clifton Lane Nottingham NG11 8NS UK Tel: +44(0)115 8483533 Fax: +44(0)115 8486364 Mail: traceschool@ntu.ac.uk ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 15:46:11 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Prageeta Sharma Subject: prageeta sharma & brian blanchfield at the zinc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Brian Blanchfield and Prageeta Sharma reading this sunday (3/24) at zinc bar please come by. 7 pm Zinc Bar is at 90 West Houston Between LaGuardia & Thompson ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 17:11:39 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: AWOL journals? Comments: cc: ariellecg@YAHOO.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Arielle, I can tell you that _Nine to Zero_ is sadly defunct (unless Jacques Debrot has decided otherwise after the fact). _6500_ kept my work for well over a year before responding to me (rejection), and _Big Allis_ never acknowledged my submission (that was over four years ago). As far as I know, both of the latter two are still operative. Kasey >From: Arielle Greenberg >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: AWOL journals? >Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2002 12:05:41 -0800 > >I'm doing a little spring cleaning/poetry >house-keeping, and realized that I haven't heard back >from the following journals despite my best efforts to >contact them, and each of them has had my work for >more than a year and a half. Anyone have any info on >any of these? Backchannel would be great, though >maybe this info is useful to others as well... > >Dirigible >Nine to Zero >Big Allis >Catalytic >6500 >Limes Times Nine >Into the Teeth of the Wind >Two Girls Review > >Thanks, >Arielle > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage >http://sports.yahoo.com/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ K. Silem Mohammad Visiting Asst. Prof. of British & Anglophone Lit University of California Santa Cruz _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jennifer Ley Subject: CW2002 Online Conference in Nouspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Posted for Dene Grigar: Dene Grigar here, inviting you to the upcoming Computers and Writing 2002 Online Conference to be held from Sunday, April 14 to Saturday, May 25, 2002 at Nouspace (http://www.eaze.net:7000). My Co-Chair Heather Jensen and I are kicking off this year's conference with a "Gala," replete with virtual fireworks, compliments of Jan Rune Holmevik on Sunday, on April 14 at 7:30 p.m. CST at the Fountain of the Avatars in Nouspace. Please join us on that evening for the festivities. We have scheduled some exciting other events, too. N. Katherine Hayles, Fred Kemp, Espen Aarseth, Wendlyn Alter, and Michael Williamson are among the keynoters at the special Sunday night Plenary Chats. The Multi-Media Electronic Literature Online features Diana Slattery, Margie Luesebrink, Mark Amerika, Jeff Parker, Nick Montfort, and Jennifer Ley. Special events include a virtual tour of The Women's Museum, as well as the "Best of Kairos" and Web Around the World exhibits, Virtual Wine Tasting (compliments of Susan Lang), the First Annual Virtual Scrabble Tournament (compliments of Michael Day), and a Friday night social called "Nightcap." Mondays and Saturdays are devoted to scholarly presentations called "Topica;" Tuesdays, to the Online Workshops; and Wednesdays, for GRN Online events. Online discussions take place all week via the conference listserv. You can see a complete list of events on the Schedule of the conference website (http://www.eaze.net/~dene/cw2002.html). The CW2002 Online Conference is FREE, but we encourage you to register so that we can include you in the listserv discussions and provide you with resident privileges in Nouspace. You can register by filling out the (brief) information at http://www.eaze.net/~dene/cw2002_registration.html. I have made a special invitation for the conference. You can see it at http://www.eaze.net/~dene/webinvitation.html. Once again, I hope you will join Heather and me. I, for one, would love to see you online at our conference. Best, Dene Grigar, Chair, CW2002 Online Conference ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:06:51 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: ...the end of human life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan Etal. Every generation bemoans their zeitgeist: I believe various of the Latins and the Greeks and probably the ancients of every culture at times bemoaned their existential and teleological fate (a good word that - teleological: problem it has a theological and a philosophical meaning in my dictionary)...but there is a difference between having a "dark view" and being, in one self at least, quite happy: often though people confuse the seeming dark future (as if anyoone could see the future) with the need (almost) to be unhappy: but whether or not one is unhappy is - all theings being equal and disregarding extreme tragedy or unusual pain etc in one's life - is, as I say, up to the individual. Its a choice: the positive of to be or not to be. An example: my mother was home-bound in 1997 so I had to look after her a lot and was thus quite home-bound (and our finances were in a very bad shape): it became an ordeal getting away even to just to a library: now I became (or made myself) quite depressed, but I decided to read Dr Wayne Dwyer's book "Your Erroneous Zones" which is the best book I have ever read: I used concepts in there to turn the "depression" around and now have none: I feel good all the time. I control any negative thoughts and so on. That said: I'm not talking I bacame a Buddhist and departed this world! Just improved my way of looking at things and my own general well-being. Note I said CONTROL not ELIMINATED ... one cannot eliminate suffering: but it can be fought and dealt with largely ... it is in fact an ongoing (maybe never ending) struggle.... Sub specie aeternitatis etc and in truth the world and everything does/can look rather grim - and even possibly in the short human term -wars poverty Bush and so on - but why let those things interfere with one's own happiness: what is the use of being a "miserable genius"? Answer: none. In fact probably we can do nothing about Bush or wars or the "human condition" (we can all do small things probably like helping someone less fortunate than ourselves, or donating some money to a cause or a kind act here and there.... There is only one life and we are lucky to have it and its fascinating (if grim at times) and over here its sunny and I can see blue corn flowers and I'm alive...Ok I wont start writing like Christ or cummings: I'll spare you the need to shudder! The future may seem dark but think of all the toiling and near starving millions of suffering people without flush toilets and all that kinda stuff... Think: even politicians suffer from piles and so on... (All that said I like a bit of dark sometimes)....Think of Spike Milligan...Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:00 AM Subject: Re: ...the end of human life > Alan, > > well, since there is nothing else to do but act...unless we sit around and > moan at slow decay...whimpering etc, etc., what do you think is to be > done? > > Gene > > > What is to be done - for me is to act, no matter how pessimistic I am - > teaching is part of this; it's a question of impulse. I meant to write > "raising the fist" btw - not "raising the first" - I think the phrase is > from an old book of Bernard Henri-Levy. As atheist, I have trouble wait- > ing as well for some spiritual pandemonium or salvation. > > It's a question for me of separation what seems to be a dark future from > teleology. > > Alan > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:10:35 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: | sym MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Alan etal... You've taken that from Jeffrey Jullich's thing and played with it: no? Poetic licence? Or was that the idea of JJ giving those links? Maybe I'm confused... This was the one I liked the idea of. (on the links JJ gave)..Regards, Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 6:16 AM Subject: | sym > | > | > | the world is perfect, not imperfect > | negation is a quality of syntax; perfection is ikonic > | negation is a decision; beyond inscription, the world lies > | good is a quality of the world; evil is a quality of semiosis > | goodness is meaningless; perfection is meaningless > | meaning is a carving of the other by the other in the original face > | writing inscribes; inscription is written > | punishment is a quality of ethos; ethos is disembodied code > | the book of nature knows no language > | nothing is corrupted, nothing corruptible > | semiosis squares the good and rounds the evil > | disembodied code is the code of disembodiment > | the meaningless is good and perfect > | identity is meaningless > | semiosis is the simultaneity of equivalent structures > | occupation is inscription; inscription occupies > | all is fluid, fractal, quantum within degrees > | the world is balanced, not balanced > | imbalance is eternal motion, the torsion of semiosis > | decision is always quantum > | the legibility of nature is only the nature of legibility > | cross the chiasm, from meaning to meaningless > | infinite information constructs a world > | infinite information is meaningless > | there is no deviation beyond inscription > | perversion is a version of the carving of the other > | the face is everywhere; the world has no face > | the world has no carving; nothing is written in the world > | organism inhabits the meaningless > | the law of ownership is the ownership of law > | ownership is among the imperfect and temporary > | the code of disembodiment is post-mortem > | whatever is said, is said after one > | an inscription is meaningless, two inscriptions are unbalanced > | saying something is never something saying > | what is said, is meaningless > | there is nothing of the world > | a center is an instant > | > | "For it is only the finite that has wrought and suffered; > | the infinite lies stretched in smiling repose." - Emerson > | > > sym > > is world the | perfect, not imperfect > a is negation | quality of syntax; perfection is ikonic > a is negation | decision; beyond inscription, the world lies > a is good | quality of the world; evil is > meaningless; is goodness | perfection is meaningless > a is meaning | carving of the other by the > inscription inscribes; writing | is written > a is punishment | quality of ethos; ethos is disembodied > of book the | nature knows no language > corrupted, is nothing | nothing corruptible > the squares semiosis | good and rounds the evil > is code disembodied | the code of disembodiment > is meaningless the | good and perfect > meaningless is identity | > the is semiosis | simultaneity of equivalent structures > inscription; is occupation | inscription occupies > fluid, is all | fractal, quantum within degrees > is world the | balanced, not balanced > eternal is imbalance | motion, the torsion of semiosis > always is decision | quantum > of legibility the | nature is only the nature of > chiasm, the cross | from meaning to meaningless > constructs information infinite | a world > is information infinite | meaningless > no is there | deviation beyond inscription > a is perversion | version of the carving of the > is face the | everywhere; the world has no face > has world the | no carving; nothing is written in > the inhabits organism | meaningless > of law the | ownership is the ownership of law > among is ownership | the imperfect and temporary > of code the | disembodiment is post-mortem > said, is whatever | is said after one > is inscription an | meaningless, two inscriptions are unbalanced > is something saying | never something saying > said, is what | is meaningless > nothing is there | of the world > is center a | an instant > | > is it "For | only the finite that has wrought > lies infinite the | stretched in smiling repose." - Emerson > | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 00:33:22 -0330 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Reading in Halifax MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII POETRY by Kevin Hehir Shoe String Series March 26, 8:30 Economy Shoe Shop 1663 Argyle Halifax, Nova Scotia Brazil meets a Southern Ontario college town and go figure it makes for good reading. Broken Pencil ... a visitor from Newfoundland, who had the place in hysterics.... We sincerely hope he returns to bless the mic again. Woohoo! Step Up Slam, Ottawa Migrant poetry worker Kevin Hehir currently lives by Rawlins Cross in St. John's, Newfoundland. He has performed his poetry all over the country including at the Free Verse Area of the Americas at the anti-capitalist protests in Quebec City last April. His writing has appeared in anthologies, 'zines, on CBC Radio and on the web. His chapbook "Time Folds Like Maps" and CD "Canadadaians Art Sound" are nearly sold out. Woohoo! -30- ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 23:20:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: what i heard, in the last two days, of the last days MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII what i heard, in the last two days, of the last days gouge out eyes, the women are whores, mine the towns, bomb the fields, the jews are coming, the jews are going, i tasted all the protocols, i saw it with my running feet, i dream you jews, i dream you women, i dream you children, i read it on the internet, i saw it in the newspaper, i heard it on the radio, i touched it on the television, i tasted every jew in sight, i smelled each and every woman, blood is filth and pain, jews are filth and pain, women are filth and pain, they're marked in the middle of the month, walk the streets of any city, look around you, it's purim, haid, passover, there's danger in the streets, i can hear the danger, i can hear the danger -:everywhere, they're killing children, jews need young and kosher meat, five-year-olds are good for books, books are a new and newer language, they've got it figured in the book, they do their figures in the book, they're eaten by the jews, i smelled it on the television, i touched it on the internet, clean yourself with stones, make sure they're three or more and always odd, die beneath the stones, jews, you're eating children, look at little hugh of lincoln, you're teeth are filled with others' flesh, all women are filthy, all women are unclean, jewish men bleed once a month, they hide everywhere -:tie up the natural blood of women, the jews are eating children again; seclude the children and the women, tie up the natural blood of women, it's purim time, it's passover, it's haid, she's filthy as the filthy jews, they're tying up women, they're tying up children to eat them - they do that for their filthy rites, i read it on the radio, i heard it on the newspaper -:: oh daughters sons of blood, there is no place to flee on earth, beneath the rain of bombs, there is nowhere left to go, everyone will kill thee! oh daughters sons of blood, there is no place to flee on earth, beneath the rain of bombs, there is nowhere left to go, everyone will kill thee! _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 21:31:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Re: Daryl Hine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Daryl Hine was nice enough to have accepted a poem of mine for ~Poetry~ (Chicago) when I was nineteen whe he was editor there. If I can find a copy of that issue anywhere in my rummage, I'll post the poem, . . . as a sort of grateful measure of where the yesteryear of "liberal" poetry once stood and his generosity and progressivism as editor. It was Hine, too, of course, who was also the editor under whom ~Self-Portrait in a Convex Mirror~ and other "daring" poems first appeared. It was a brief window of opportunity that that otherwise inertia-driven journal enjoyed . . . although looking at Hine's on-line credits may, rather, offer a reinterpretation of Self Portrait's premiere and other New York School ~Poetry~ debuts, such as Charles North's (???) ~Works on Paper,~ as having made it past the transom on the strength of Hine's misreading them for their ~scholasticism~ rather than for their futurity. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 22:37:44 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: more CIRCA 1987 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii richard.tylr wrote: >I liked these: I had a quick look and have added them to my favourites< Thanks for the kind words. See accompanying note below these URLs to still more "CIRCA 1987" poems: ------------------------------------------------------- "paying in full for services" http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001589.html "a picture of a woman" http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001590.html "9/12/89" http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001591.html "Men with chafed skin" http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001596.html "Because plentiful" http://lm.va.com.au/pipermail/_arc.hive_/2002-March/001597.html [Make sure URL is all on one line before clicking, or re-paste into "Location:" window] ------------------------------------------------------- You have to suspend disbelief and, regardless of how they read now, try to see these (at least) odd poems through this Time Tunnel distorting prism of their incubation, to imagine what they must've seemed like in 1987. ~There was nowhere to get rid of them.~ Despite the numerousness of the poets in ~In American Tree,~ that volume was almost like a forced round-up or voluntary self-quarantine or ~detention camp~ of avant-gardism, and there ~simply wasn't~ that much of this kind of stuff floating around, unlike now. Of course ~In American Tree~ had dozens of poets: pariahs were packing it like Noah's Ark. I think some of the "historical value" of bringing these misbegottens out of hiding may be to re-visit or "re-experience" the now taken-for-granted inaugural moment of Language Poetry's national unveiling through the something of a ~misinterpretation,~ or ~1987~ rather than 2002 perspective, that these poems place on the movement, ---subsequently having proliferated in unanticipated and autonomous and, in its own way, equally misinterpretive directions, versus the slightly different, cock-eyed angling that such contemporaneous "imitation" or such a very first, first, inchoate ripple of "post-Language" evidently gave to the source models at the moment of their original launching. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 00:50:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Seldess Subject: antennae - issue 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANTENNAE 2 March 2002 Poems - Pierre Thoma / Jen Hofer / Mark DuCharme / Andrew Levy / Deborah Meadows / Joseph Massey / Rusty Morrison / Matthew Shenoda / Chris McCreary / Michael Basinski Music/Performance Scores - Kunsu Shim / Craig Shepard / Peirre Thoma / Jürg Frey / George Albon Also featuring a dialogue between Patrick F. Durgin and Andrew Levy $5.00, payable to Jesse Seldess at PO Box 2036, Madison, WI 53701-2036. Submissions and correspondence are hoped for - use the postal address mentioned above, or use email: j_seldess@hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:58:58 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: a working-class poet is something to be MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 3/21/02 8:51:55 PM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: << In a message dated 3/20/02 11:57:25 AM, richard.tylr@XTRA.CO.NZ writes: >Bill. I think you're right (or as "right" as one can be right!) in this > >discussion. Murat may be confusing value - or intrinsic value - with the > >Marxist (or other economic-philosohic-political) determinationof what a > >product is. What is "intrinsic value?" Class has a lot to do with money, in other words, the market value of your work as "product" in the cycle of production. Richard, as you yourself imply, if poetry became desirable like pop music, and some poets became through their "poems," wouldn't that change things at least in two ways: 1) if from a 10,000-dolla- a-year person you became a millionaire, don't you think this will change your class status? 2) and more important, if you were making millions out of your poems, don't you think that would affect the kind of poetry you will write. Don't you think you would write ways to "please" that market, in extreme cases, do market research, add "hooks" to your poems, etc., etc. These aspects make the poem a "product." Because, in poetry (particularly in the States), there is no such "ready public, the writing process has no such implicit contract, as the originator of the poem, with the public. This is both a limitation and a positive thing. The limitation: the question of a poem mirroring one's time, one's values (which art historically does) becomes more problematic. On the other, this lack of contract gives the poet, potentially at least, if he or she dares to acknowledge the reality of this position, an absolute freedom to experiment (acknowledging the possibility of absolute dismissal by the public). That's why I call poetry a consumption, a"process," and split it from its after-life in public. "Intrinsic value" is a deceptive term blurring the issue. The word gives the impression (in my opinion, the illusion) that there is a value "beyond," "above" market value. Actually, I think, that value is the psychological value to the poet/writer; its value as process, which is what the poet has to originate the process. Murat >> Thanks Richard, and Murat for the imput. George Bataille has much to say in The Accursed Share about excess in production, and Derrida is no slouch on that issue either -- but that's for another time. Murat, your question re: the millionaire's tendency to meet market demands has that rhetorical flavor, as if the answer were obvious. You're correct, I think; it is obvious. The answer is that it depends on whether or not the author is a hack. Ginsberg, for example, produced "Howl" without knowing how it would do in the marketplace of ideas and folding green. He could not have foreseen the government's attack on City Lights Bookstore which made him famous. We assume, I assume, that "Howl" represents his authentic vision and methodology. Years into his career, and well past his first million, Ginsberg was producing "Contest of the Bards," "Plutonian Ode," and a whole lotta other poems that evinced the same aesthetic gesture as did "Howl." His vision did not change, in the main. So Ginsberg did not pander. On the other hand, Jackson Pollock, whose dribbling on canvas was likewise in the dark re: its own coming reception, did change post-success. Another example of an artist who followed his own vision regardless of marketplace success. There are certainly hundreds of such examples. Yet both artists had a "ready market," to use your term. Are Ashbery and Creeley issuing product (since both have ready markets), while you and I, say, are involved only in process? I most certainly agree with you that there is a value beyond market share. But this is what I mean when I suggest that your working definition of "product" restricts itself to economic viability. Why do that? As poststructuralists (even many Marxists) would acknowledge, the self itself is a product of language, despite its not being available at the local convenience store. Every process is also a product in the sense that it issues from an agent and agency. And that agency is itself a product, and so forth. I still think the quibble, always already deconstructed, is more about how one chooses to limit or delimit the term "product." I'm going for the complete dictionary entry. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com/BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:04:48 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: New Boog City editors--Devaney, Fuhrman, Sullivan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit More powerful than a locomotive, faster than a speeding bullet, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, it's the Boog City editorial and production team. Please welcome the following new editors: C.A. Conrad, finding the word/quotations editor findingtheword@boogcity.com Tom Devaney, printed matter printedmatter@boogcity.com Joanna Fuhrman, poetry poetry@boogcity.com Gary Sullivan, comics comics@boogcity.com all submissions or queries that fall under these categories should go through these good folk. and I can't forget our already extant family: James Wilk, music editor music@boogcity.com Kristin Prevallet, lexicons editor lexicons@boogcity.com Brian Ach, art director Edmund Berrigan, copy chief Gerald Mcdonald, technical support Donald Lev, Sunspot Distribution Issue five, the Antifolk issue, due out Monday 3/25 hope all is well. as ever, dak -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 T: (212) 206-8899 F: (212) 206-9982 editor@boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:47:09 -0500 Reply-To: nudel-soho@mindspring.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Harry Nudel Subject: m&r..mysterium iniquitas... The cases of pederastry in the Cath. Church....mysterium iniquitas...might get us to smell the sheets of our own po unmade beds... Reading a review (two weeks ago?) of Andrea Dworkin's HEARBREAK..in NYTIMES book review....nota an exchange tween Ms Drworkin and our own very very po Mr Ginsberg..over similiar behaviour of his..."what would you do to me...put me in jail" asks Po Ginsie...."no, i'm not a liberal...i'd shoot you" Ms Dworkin... My own delusional fantasies of the axis of evil of the Rimp-Gins necropolis empire are too well known...for me to be an impartial judge...& i find it a more complex question than a Ms...if Catullus could bang at 12 yr old boys....let's leave Rimbaud and Verlaine back to back... The further question both in Church and Po is not sex but POWER....and its uses...FAME and its disabuses...Po is both a ladder and whip...step up on it..and touch the scars...DRn.. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 10:29:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: caroline crumpacker Subject: New reading Series Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable INTRODUCING a new reading series featuring bilingual readings of poetry in translation April 4: A Celebration of the work of Christophe Tarkos Featuring readings by Stacy Doris, Chet Wiener, and Jonathan Skinner Translators from Christophe Tarkos: Ma Langue Est Poetique - Selected Work In French and English April 18: Duration Press Presents Ryoko Sekiguchi Duration Press editor Jerrold Shiroma will read with Ryoko Sekiguchi. In French, Japanese and English May 9: Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women Jen Hofer and Dolores Dorantes read from a forthcoming anthology In Spanish and English May 16: Chinese Poetries Featuring Yunte Huang, author of SHI, a Radical Reading of Chinese Poetry. In Chinese and English The authors' books will be available for sale at these programs. All programs will take place in the Margaret Berger Forum of The New York Public Library, Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street, New York City. Readings begi= n at 7 p.m. and are free and open to the public: advance registration required. To register or for more information, please Readers' Biographies: April 4: Stacy Doris' books written in English include Conference (Potes & Poets) Paramour (Krupskaya 2000), and Kildare (Roof, 1995). Written semi-anonymously in French are La vie de Chester Steven Wiener =E9crite par s= a femme (P.O.L, 1998), and Chroniques new-yorkaises, (P.O.L, 2000). She has edited a dossier of new American writing in French for Java, and co-edited the following collections of French poetry translated by American poets: with Chet Wiener, Christophe Tarkos: Ma Langue est Po=E9tique--Selected Work (New York: Roof) 2001; with Norma Cole, Twenty-two New (to North America) French Poets (Vancouver: Raddle Moon) 1997; with Emmanuel Hocquard), Violence of the White Page, Contemporary French Poetry in Translation (Santa Fe, NM: Pederal) 1992. Jonathan Skinner is currently pursuing a PhD in Poetics at SUNY-Buffalo, where, with partner Isabelle Pelissier, he curates the Steel Bar reading series, and edits Ecopoetics. His poems, essays and translations (from French, Spanish and Old Occitan) have appeared in numerous magazines, including Curricle Patterns, Elevator, Gare du Nord, Jacket, Lagniappe, La main de singe, murmur, The Transcendental Friend and verdure. Recent chapbooks include Political Cactus Poems (Periplum Editions, 1998), and Little Dictionary of Sounds (Red D Lines, 2001). Christophe Tarkos was born in Marseilles in 1964. Since his first book, Morceaux choisis, which appeared in 1995, he has published at least 25 volumes of poetry. He describes himself overall as "slow". After giving u= p teaching history in a grammar school, he worked as a substitute fare collector at highway toll booths. He has collaborated with a number of contemporary French writers, artists, and composers, including Katalin Moln=E1r, Pascal Doury, and Eryck Abecassis. He has presented perhaps a record number of poetry readings, improvisations and performances, touring 51 European cities in 1999 alone. Chet Wiener has translated a number of French writers, including Pierre Alferi (Yale Book of Twentieth- Century Poetry, 2002), F=E9lix Guattari (Soft Subversions, with David Sweet, Semiotext(e) 1996; Chaosophy, with David Sweet, et al., Semiotext(e) 1995 ), and Agn=E8s Rouzier, Cyb=E8le Lhermite and Albane Prouvost in reviews. His poetry in English has appeared in Crayon, Epoch, Object, Torque and elsewhere, as well as in the Biennale Internationale des Po=E8tes en Val-de-Marne (1996, translated by Emmanuel Hocquard), and in French in Java and if. In 1999 his WalkDontWalk was published at Potes and Poets, after having been translated into French as Marchez ne courez pas (Cr=E9aphis, 1998, Anne Talvas, et al.). He currently lives in Paris where he researches topics in sixteenth-century French literature and philosophy, is engaged in a photographic project on construction sites and the airport, and works as a professional translator. April 18: Ryoko Sekiguchi was born in 1970. In 1988, she was awarded the 26th Contemporary Poetry Prize in Japan. Since 1997, she has lived in Paris, &,i= n 1999 began to translate her own work from Japanese into French. She has als= o translated into French, the work of Gozo Yoshimasu, &, into Japanese, the work of Abdelwahab Meddeb. Her books, in French, are _Calque_ (P.O.L, 2001)= , & _Cassiopee Peca_ (cipM, 2001). Jerrold Shiroma was born & raised in San Diego, California. After spending five years in the San Francisco Bay Area, he recently moved to Providence, Rhode Island, & attends Brown University. He is involved in numerous print = & on-line publishing projects, including: editing & publishing duration press= , which publishes a chapbook series dedicated primarily to contemporary poetr= y in translation, & a forthcoming newsletter of contemporary French poetry; directing & maintaining the durationpress.com internet project, which house= s work by over 100 contemporary international poets & provides free to low-cost web-hosting services to over 30 small presses; & is a member of th= e editorial board for the on-line journal double change. His publications include the chapbooks 2 poems (a+bend press, 2000), & untitled object (Potes & Poets Press, 2000).\ May 9: Dolores Dorantes is originally from C=F3rdoba, Veracruz, and currentl= y lives in Ciudad Ju=E1rez, Chihuahua. She is co-editor, with Juan Manuel Portillo, of Editorial Frugal, which counts among its activities publication of the monthly broadside series Hoja Frugal, printed in editions of 1000 and distributed free throughout Mexico. Her books and chapbooks include SexoPUROsexoVELOZ (Cuadernos del filodecaballo, Guadalajara, 2002), Para Bernardo: un eco (MUB editoraz, Mexico City, 2000), Poemas par= a ni=F1os (Ediciones El Tuc=E1n de Virginia, Mexico City, 1999) and A t=EDtulo de muestra (Instituto Chihuahuense de la Cultura, Chihuahua, 1996). Her poems and critical writings can be found in recent issue= s of Cr=F3nica, La Jornada, Provincetown Arts Journal and Tripwire. Jen Hofer is originally from the San Francisco Bay Area, and currently divides her time between Mexico City and Los Angeles. She is the editor & translator of an anthology of contemporary poetry by Mexican women which will be co-published by University of Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre in 2003. Her other works include_as far as_ (a+bend, 1999), "Laws," (A.BACUS, Potes & Poets Press, 2001) and _The 3:15 Experiment_ (in conjunction with Lee Ann Brown, Danika Dinsmore and Bernadette Mayer, The Owl Press, 2001). Her first book of poems, _Slide Rule_, will be published by subpress early in 2002. Her poems and translations can be found in recent or shortly forthcoming issues o= f Antennae, Aufgabe, Chain (in collaboration with Patrick Durgin), Conundrum, HOW2, PomPom, and Tripwire. May 16: Yunte Huang was born in China and came to the U.S. in 1991 after finishing his B.A. at Peking University. He then lived in Tuscalossa, Alabama for three years before entering the Ph.D. program at SUNY-Buffalo. Since 1999 he has been Assistant Professor of English at Harvard, where he teaches modernism and Asian American literature. He is author of _SHI: A Radical Reading of Chinese Poetry_ (Roof Books, 1997), and _Transpacific Displacement: Ethnography, Translation, and Intertextual Travel in Twentieth-Century American Literature (Univ of California Press, 2002). He is also translator into Chinese of Ezra Pound's _Cantos_ and of _Language Poetry_. Huang's poems and essays have appeared in Prairie Schooner, Tinfish, boundary 2, Central Park, River City, XPC: Cross-Cultural Poetics, and other journals. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 19:58:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Richard Frey Subject: Poetry at NOTcoffeeHouse by Gontarek and Kearns 1 pm Sun.3/10/02 at First Unitarian Church Comments: To: weekend@phillynews.com Comments: cc: NIZ520@aol.com, Kaleta@rowan.edu, chang@rowan.edu, Thottem@rowan.edu, ohrcoulter@enter.net, First Unitarian Church of Philadelphia Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" (NOTcoffeeHouse)Poetry and Performance Series www.notcoffeehouse.org Sunday, April 7, 2002, 1 pm First Unitarian Church 2125 Chestnut Street Philadelphia, PA 19103/215-563-3980 Featured poets and performers: Jeffrey Ethan Lee won the Tupelo Press Literary Fiction Prize for The Autobiography of Somebody Else (forthcoming 2002). He has published strangers in a homeland, a poetry chapbook with Ashland Poetry Press (www.ashlandbookstore.com), and a hundred-fifty poems in magazines. He has a poetry CD, identity papers, available from Drimala Records [www.drimala.com], featuring Toshi Makihara and Lori-Nan Engler (funded in part by the Pennsylvania Council on the Arts. This appearance at the (NOTcoffeeHouse)Poetry and Performance Series is funded by the Greater Philadelphia Cultural Alliance. Lori-Nan Engler is a writer and actress whose credits include the daytime soap operas, The Doctors and All My Children. Her writings have been published in Northeast Corridor and Hopeful Monster. Born in Japan, Toshi Makihara has been a central figure in the vibrant improvisational new music scene in Philadelphia for the past decade. A devotee of the live improvisational performance experience, Toshi has performed with many experimental music ensembles and dance and theater companies. He studied percussion with Yoshisaburo (Sabu) Toyozumi in Tokyo and composition with Joel Thome in New York. Plus Open Poetry and Performance Showcase $1 admission. Poets and performers may submit works for posting on the website via email (attachment easiest for webmaster) to the webmaster@notcoffeehouse.org or works may be emailed to Richard Frey at richardfrey@dca.net or USPS or hand-delivered through slot at 500 South 25th Street, Philadelphia, PA 19146. More information: Church office, 215-563-3980, Jeff Loo, 546-6381 or Richard Frey, 735-7156. Website address: www.notcoffeehouse.org POETS & PERFORMERS PREVIOUSLY APPEARING AT NOTCOFFEEHOUSE: NATHALIE ANDERSON, LISA COFFMAN, BARBARA COLE, BARB DANIELS, LINH DINH, LORI-NAN ENGLER, SIMONE ZELITCH, DAN EVANS, BRENDA MCMILLAN, KERRY SHERIN, JOHN KELLY GREEN, EMILIANO MARTIN, JOSE GAMALINDA, TOSHI MAKIHARA, THOM NICKELS, JOANNE LEVA, DARCY CUMMINGS, DAVID MOOLTEN, KRISTEN GALLAGHER, SHULAMITH WACHTER CAINE, MARALYN LOIS POLAK, MARCUS CAFAGNA, ETHEL RACKIN, LAUREN CRIST, BETH PHILLIPS BROWN, JOSEPH SORRENTINO, FRANK X, RICHARD KIKIONYOGO, ELLIOTT LEVIN, LEONARD GONTAREK, LAMONT STEPTOE, BERNARD STEHLE, SHARON RHINESMITH, ALEXANDRA GRILIKHES, C. A. CONRAD, NATE CHINEN, JIM CORY, TOM GRANT, GREGG BIGLIERI, ELI GOLDBLATT, STEPHANIE JANE PARRINO, JEFF LEE, THEODORE A. HARRIS, MIKE MAGEE, WIL PERKINS, DEBORAH BURNHAM, UNSOUND, DANNY ROMERO, DON RIGGS, SHAWN WALKER, SHE-HAW, SCOTT KRAMER, JUDITH TOMKINS, 6 OF THE UNBEARABLES - ALFRED VITALE RON KOLM, JIM FEAST, MIKE CARTER, SHARON MESMER, CAROL WIERZBICKI-,JOHN PHILLIPS, QUINN ELI, MOLLY RUSSAKOFF, PEGGY CARRIGAN, KELLY MCQUAIN, PATRICK KELLY, MARK SARRO, ROCCO RENZETTI, VOICES OF A DIFFERENT DREAM - ANNIE GEHEB, ELLEN FORD MASON, SUSAN WINDLE - BOB PERELMAN, JENA OSMAN, ROBYN EDELSTEIN,BRIAN PATRICK HESTON, FRANCIS PETER HAGEN, SHANKAR VEDANTAM, YOLANDA WISHER, LYNN LEVIN, MARGARET HOLLEY, DON SILVER, ROSS GAY, HEATHER STARR, MAGDALENA ZURAWSKI, DAISY FRIED, KNIFE & FORK BAND, ALICIA ASKENASE, RUTH ROUFF, KYLE CONNER, TAMARA OAKMAN, ROBYN EDELSTEIN, SARA OMINSKY, THADDEUS RUTKOWSKI, CAROLE BERNSTEIN, RYAN ECKES, THE NIGHTBIRDS, MARJ HAHNE, TONI BROWN, MELISA CAHNMANN, DIANE GUARNIERI, SIANI TAYLOR, CATZIE VILAYPHONH, MICHELLE MYERS, NZADI KEITA, ANDREW BRADLEY, JOE CHELLIUS, A.V. CHRISTIE, SHELLY REESE, SHANNON COULTER, NINA ISRAEL ZUCKER, PEGGY KEARNS -- Richard Frey 500 South 25th Street Philadelphia. PA 19146 215-735-7156 richardfrey@dca.net ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 09:11:41 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tenney Nathanson Subject: REMINDER poetry reading: Tenney Nathanson, Arizona Quarterly Symposium, Saturday March 23, 10 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit REMINDER Tenney Nathanson will give a reading as part of the annual Arizona Quarterly Symposium--Saturday, March 23, 10 AM. U of A Alumni Building (aka "Swede" Johnson Building), NW corner of Speedway & Cherry. Free & open to the public; refreshments. For a complete schedule of the Symposium, which runs from Thursday March 21-Saturday March 23, please contact mailto:mlvons@dakotacom.net Tenney Nathanson's poems have appeared in such journals as Social Text, The Massachusetts Review, Ironwood, Sonora Review, Caterpillar, Tamarisk, RIF/T, Antennae, and Kenning. He has published two chapbooks, The Book of Death and One Block Over. Chax Press will publish a full-length collection of Nathanson’s poetry, Erased Art, in 2003. Current creative projects include a book-length poem, Home on the Range, and a chapbook, After Rilke, to include Nathanson’s poems as well as work by local calligrapher Don Lightner. His critical study Whitman’s Presence was published by NYU in 1992, and he is currently at work on a book about the contemporary poets John Ashbery, Charles Bernstein, Leslie Scalapino, Norman Fischer, Mei-Mei Berssenbrugge, and David Shapiro. for work online see: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift03/nath0301.html http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/rift/rift05/nath0501.html http://www.gopog.org/wraps/poemmonth.html (but this url will crash older versions of Netscape) or go to: http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn/poetry.html * mailto:tenney@dakotacom.net mailto:nathanso@u.arizona.edu http://www.u.arizona.edu/~nathanso/tn POG: mailto:pog@gopog.org http://www.gopog.org ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:14:07 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Lewis Subject: Re: Jorie Graham, D.A.Powell reading MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard, I'm glad you realized that I was kidding around. The soap gargle comment was meant for Joe, who said she 'sucks'. The blasphemy just burst forth because Jorie so often writes about God, and I thought Joe's comment was insulting and contemptous. I wish poets as a group could get beyond this need to insult what they themselves don't like. There are plenty of us around that can fit any sort of bill you need. I'd like the poetry community to become more inclusively peculiar. And, while I admire his passion, maybe Joe's need is to be the 'heat that seeks the flaw in everything.' So, I am on record as being a Jorie Graham fan. I especially liked The Dream of the Unified Field when she writes, "Everyone in here wants to be taken off/somebody's list, wants to be placed on somebody else's list." Karen ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:32:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution In-Reply-To: <006201c1d091$a45d5560$2e5f3618@al.buf.adelphia.net.> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Gene, Not so sure who they are but I do know that drugs are not an answer for much. But the combination of drug culture is intertwined in the avant garde, for better and worse. Who would Burroughs be without his morphine? Best, Geoffrey -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of gene Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:34 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution yep, yep. real revolution when laid out stoned. that'll change society. in fact, that's just the sort of revolution those guys want. Gene -----Original Message----- From: Geoffrey Gatza To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:47 AM Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution >Pre-modernist surrealists >"L'amore di Isidore Ducasse >conte di Lautreamont" > > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary >avant-gardism.) :) > > > >The drug is the revolution of body / mind from the ageless reason. It is the >frontier story. One person on a quest to find what is there. It is a lonely >quest full of hardships but one fraught with adventure. It turns surrealism >to realism. That factor alone makes time drip. > > > > Best, Geoffrey > > >Geoffrey Gatza >editor BlazeVOX2k2 >http://vorplesword.com/ > __o > _`\<,_ > (*)/ (*) > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich >Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 12:05 AM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: working class poetry and The Myth of Revolution > >Ron Silliman wrote: > >> To confuse those people with $150K networking >consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan >to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before >Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think >of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty >incoherent picture.< > > >(It may be a sign of my own creeping conservatism, but >I personally feel uncomfortable with gratuitous >vilification of financial industry professionals. As >if there were no James Sherry. And now especially, >after the wholesale slaughter of them in the tens of >hundreds and the leveling force of the Grim Reaper's >scythe has painfully revealed them to be/to have been >little more than workers in their own right. But >that's not my point here . . .) > > >Isn't all this discussion of class and class >obligations within poetry missing its propelling >factor, without any corollary sense of ~revolution~ >and the poet-revolutionary? Any attempted analysis of >class, even from a rightist consumer-exploitative >stance, has its basis and origin in, of course, Marx's >class theories. And that Marxist, post-Marxist or >quasi-Marxist always took its motivating force aginst >class from variously manifested versions of >"revolution." > >I have recently been reinvestigating Surrealism, . . . >which partly lost its saliency because the >"engagement" [pronounced "on-gozh-mon-t'"] of >Existentialist commitment segued better into the >concrete '68 revolutions, . . . and its genuine, >troubled political dimension: Breton co-authored a >paper with Trotsky, many Surrealists "defected" from >the Surrealist Revolution into Communist Party >membership, etc.; so, it's much on mine my mind how, >where, and when both real collaboration with >"revolutionary" political movements and social forces >or a ~myth~ of revolution fuelled the XXth century >avant-garde we're the inheritors of. > >The line forward from Surrealism and the October >Revolution is fairly easy to draw: Surrealism out of >the more short-lived, nihilistic and less articulated >Dada forward into Lettrism, Situationism, and perhaps >Lacan and post-structuralism. But I find myself >faltering --- I need more research or education into >the pre-history of Modernism --- in trying to trail >the line backward chronologically. The Modernist >precursors, the Impressionists in painting and Les >Symbolistes in poetry, although formally often >continuous with the Cubisms and -isms that flowed out >of or were spawned in reaction against them, on the >face of things do not exactly appear to be >~revolutionary~ in the same sense: rather, the Manet >depictions of men in waist coats and top hats as the >~celebration~ of haute bougeoisie, the Monet leisure, >etc., and, in poetry, end-of-an-era decadence rather >than a generative "revolution,"--- a decadence, >albeit, whose obscurantism remains larger the >prototype and starting point of Modernist and >post-modern obscurantisms, including the current >"asyntactical." > >However, despite the occasional formal resemblances, >--- and I know that here and there there must indeed >have been counter examples of sympathies for the >emergent splinter group pre-October Socialists and >utopians that I just am uneducated about, such as (?) >the younger American Whitman or Hawthorne's and the >Transcendalists' Fourier communes --- these >precursors, again, rather than being anti-"capitalist" >seem to typify an ~epitome~ of capital, and their >aesthetic revolution to be on the plane of, say, >innovation in the fashion design of ~haute couture~ >clothes, glass stemware (Lalique, Tiffany), and such. > > >The ~ultra-moderne~ rather than Modernist >"revolution." > >For want of a better word, I'm thinking of that high >capitalist ~semblable~ of later anti-capitalist >avant-garde as "High Style." (Maybe it's a >Mannerism.) Regardless, it represents a legitimate >moment where formalist relatedness conceals political >antithesis, and demonstrates a Modernism that was >fully dedicated to capital, rather than class >revolution. > > >(And there was pre-Modernist or even anti-Modernist, >non avant-garde revolutionary art: the realist >classicism of Jean-Louis David's ~Tennis Court Oath,~ >etc., which commemorated political upheavals and >~coups d'etat.~) > > >And, --- pessimistically? --- I wonder if we haven't >come full cycle and, fin-de-siecle again, at the >turning point of both centuries, whether our >particular historical branch --- "hippy" revolutionary >Beat > Black Mountain > Language --- hasn't had the >revolutionary myth effectively drain out of it, --- so >that our current uneasy condition is a ~vestigial~ lip >service to "revolution" but a reversion to High Style >"bourgeois"/middle class conservatism. The >discrepancy between the lived careerism and MFA-ing of >poetry, the (first generation) New York School >buttoning up back into shocking neckties and blazers >versus the Beat dishevelment, (the journal ~Fence~?) >--- aren't we in a position like the earliest >Modernists, living "the good life," fully trafficking >in the pleasures of capital, and ~only~ observing a >superficial (hypocritical?) ~trace~ >pseudo-revolutionariness in formal aesthetic >experimentalism (an experimentalism that has, >meanwhile, obviously become its own paradoxical >conservatisim of an "alternative tradition," perhaps >in fact the ~sole~ keepers of tradition)? > >The point being that, without revolution, including a >revolutionary ideology for poetry (~Revolution dans la >Langue Poetique~?), class is merely class,--- and >discussion about its frictions is just moot, neither >here nor there: it's all missing its necessary >leverage ("revolution"). > >...................................................... > >Incidentally,--- > >(Any "revolutionary" agenda, of course, is currently >badly compromised or stifled, like the tepid street >protests against the recent World Economic Forum, by >revolution's indistinguishability from terrorism, or, >for that matter, berserk schizophrenic violence [the >newspaper-certified "schizophrenic" shooting up a post >office, and Baden Meinhof-ish shooting up a post >office], and the reasonable-seeming total clamp-down >of new social controls and revoked civil liberties.) > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary >avant-gardism.) :) > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage >http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:41:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Mytili Jagannathan and Gary Sullivan at La Tazza Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Gary Sullivan /Mytili Jaganathan Saturday, March 30, 7:00 PM La Tazza 108 Chestnut Street Old City Philadelphia Gary Sullivan is the author of How to Proceed in the Arts (Faux, 2001) and, with Nada Gordon, Swoon (Granary, 2001). He edits the online poetics journal Readme and is the staff cartoonist for Rain Taxi. He invented "flarf" -- "a mostly unprintable subgenre of poetry" (Publishers Weekly). "B" will be published later this year by Situations and he is currently working on cartoon biographies of d.a.levy (for Boog Press) and Najwa Karam (for SPX 2002). Mytili Jagannathan lives in Philadelphia and works for the Asian Arts Initiative. She's pretty sure she was a crow in a previous life. Her poems have appeared in Combo, XConnect, Interlope, Salt, and Xcp: Cross-Cultural Poetics. A poetic statement and a poem ("Open Letter") can be found at: _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:12:59 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: cambridge quarterly MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I'd point listmembers in the direction of the new _Cambridge Quarterly_, which is the first of two issues edited by Geoff Ward & devoted to contemporary poetry. The issue is for the time available online in PDF form: http://www3.oup.co.uk/camquj/current/ & has, among other things, John Wilkinson's superb review of three anthologies of 20th-c. British & Irish poetry, including Keith Tuma's Oxford book. It is probably, with Stephen Burt's piece in _Boston Review_, the most thoughtful & substantial response the book's yet received. -- There's also articles on Raworth, Wilkinson, Gascoyne, MacNeice, & Paulin, plus a thoughtful introduction by Ward written shortly after Sep 11th. all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://pages.sprint.ca/ndorward/files/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 12:39:14 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Comments: To: william buchan , Teresa Green , "T. Maurice Speller" , Susan Passmore , Susan Passmore , Stephen Cain , Sharon Lance , Seema Sarwar , Scott McVittie , Sarah Harrison , Sacha Chan Kam , Ryan Ayukawa , Rosco Magazine , Rob Read , rebecca faria , Rachel O'Shea , Paul Kennett , nicole markotic , Nikki Reimer , Nikki , michael mahy , Michael Jarvis , michael debeyer , Mark Martin , Mark Hanna , Mara Hallman , "Lindsey L. Coulter" , leah laxdal , Kyle Buckley , Larissa Lai , kristy sargent , kim andreson , "Kevin J. Baker" , Ken MacLeod , Kathy Christie , Karen Walker , jodi cramm , Jim Fay , jeremy Mcleod , jenna wong , Jenn Lill , Jeff Einboden , Jay Gamble , Jason Morelyle , Janet Neigh , "j.ryan waye" , j barlow , Heather Kearney , Heather Edey , Gregory Betts , grant hallman , Fritz Fischer , Elise Redekopp , edwood@ucalgary.ca, dimitri kyriakopoulos , Diana Campbell , derek beaulieu , Dawa Lhamo , danielle maveal , Claus nader , Christopher Dewdney , Christopher Blais , Christiaan van Blommestein , chris fickling , chris deraiche , Chad Babiuk , carmen malvar , Brendan Fernades , bill bissett , angela rawlings , Andrea Strudensky , andre rodriguez , amy butoiske , Alison Wideman , aaron grach MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey everybody, Sorry about not including the website address! Here it is: www.angelfire.com/poetry/jasonchristie/titlepage.html Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: jason christie To: william buchan ; UB Poetics discussion group ; Teresa Green ; T. Maurice Speller ; Susan Passmore ; Susan Passmore ; Stephen Cain ; Sharon Lance ; Seema Sarwar ; Scott McVittie ; Sarah Harrison ; Sacha Chan Kam ; Ryan Ayukawa ; Rosco Magazine ; Rob Read ; rebecca faria ; Rachel O'Shea ; Paul Kennett ; nicole markotic ; Nikki Reimer ; Nikki ; michael mahy ; Michael Jarvis ; michael debeyer ; Mark Martin ; Mark Hanna ; Mara Hallman ; Lindsey L. Coulter ; leah laxdal ; Kyle Buckley ; Larissa Lai ; kristy sargent ; kim andreson ; Kevin J. Baker ; Ken MacLeod ; Kathy Christie ; Karen Walker ; jodi cramm ; Jim Fay ; jeremy Mcleod ; jenna wong ; Jenn Lill ; Jeff Einboden ; Jay Gamble ; Jason Morelyle ; Janet Neigh ; j.ryan waye ; j barlow ; Heather Kearney ; Heather Edey ; Gregory Betts ; grant hallman ; Fritz Fischer ; Elise Redekopp ; edwood@ucalgary.ca ; dimitri kyriakopoulos ; Diana Campbell ; derek beaulieu ; Dawa Lhamo ; danielle maveal ; Claus nader ; Christopher Dewdney ; Christopher Blais ; Christiaan van Blommestein ; chris fickling ; chris deraiche ; Chad Babiuk ; carmen malvar ; Brendan Fernades ; bill bissett ; angela rawlings ; Andrea Strudensky ; andre rodriguez ; amy butoiske ; Alison Wideman ; aaron grach Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 2:01 AM Hi friends, Sorry for the group email. I just wanted to let you all know that I've put some new writing up on my website. Drop by if you can and let me know what you think. Jason ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:29:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Karen Gisonny Subject: skanky possum, Re*map MIME-Version: 1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


The New York Public Library is looking for Skanky Possum #5 and Re*M= ap

issues #2 (to the present) to fill gaps in its holdings. If anyon= e can provide the

issues or information on obtaining them contact me= at kgisonny@nypl.org.

Thanks!
Karen Gisonny/NYPL

= ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2002 20:42:55 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Park family Subject: Re: AWOL journals? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, I think Two Girl Review is defunct as I got my check sent back when I tried to order a sample copy about a year ago. Susan Park Arielle Greenberg wrote: > I'm doing a little spring cleaning/poetry > house-keeping, and realized that I haven't heard back > from the following journals despite my best efforts to > contact them, and each of them has had my work for > more than a year and a half. Anyone have any info on > any of these? Backchannel would be great, though > maybe this info is useful to others as well... > > Dirigible > Nine to Zero > Big Allis > Catalytic > 6500 > Limes Times Nine > Into the Teeth of the Wind > Two Girls Review > > Thanks, > Arielle > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:29:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: seeking email for Sianne Ngai MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, Sianne's email is: xngai@stanford.edu Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: "Small Press" To: Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:45 AM Subject: seeking email for Sianne Ngai > Please let me know Sianne's email, apprec, b/c > cheers > > Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson, Executive Director > Small Press Traffic > Literary Arts Center at CCAC > 1111 Eighth Street > San Francisco, California 94107 > 415/551-9278 > http://www.sptraffic.org > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 08:40:01 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Poetry Society "evicted" from website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Poetry Society evicted from its website to sell Viagra not verse=20 Paul Kelso Thursday March 21, 2002 The Guardian "As I was trawling on the net, I found my site I couldn't get. I couldn't get it again today, why has my website gone away?"=20 With apologies to Hughes Mearn, the Poetry Society could be forgiven for adapting his verse after its website became the victim of a curious case of cyber-squatting.=20 The society's award-winning website (www.poetrysoc.com) was until last week a rare literary success in cyberspace, attracting 300,000 hits a month. But last Thursday visitors found the site had gone from verse to bad.=20 Instead of the usual selection of new poetry and educational initiatives, they found a directory of online services ranging from internet casinos to hair loss treatment and viagra distributors.=20 This was more than a technical problem. Thanks to an administrative lapse, the Poetry Society - or its internet service provider, Total Web Solutions - had not renewed its registration of the domain name, allowing Ultimate Search Inc, a Hong Kong based company, to purchase it and become the legal owners.=20 Why a search directory registered to a PO box in Hong Kong should want a domain name that Andrew Motion and Roger McGough count among their bookmarks is not clear, but their actions are beyond a joke for the society.=20 As well as losing its main point of contact with the public, the society's email is being sent to a server in Hong Kong.=20 On Monday it had to reprint 32,000 leaflets with a new web address (www.poetrysociety.org.uk) which it hopes will go live today, and the saga could cost the society, a registered charity sustained by the Arts Council and 3,500 members, up to =A320,000 in legal fees.=20 Ultimate Search Inc has not replied to emails and telephone calls from lawyers acting for the Poetry Society, and yesterday did not respond to a message left by the Guardian.=20 "We've spent five years building up our award winning website and it's pretty devastating to have the name taken over like this," said Christina Patterson, director of the Poetry Society.=20 "We were getting 300,000 hits a month. It seems remarkable that a company promoting gambling and viagra should use the name of a charity set up to promote poetry."=20 Jane Mutimear, a lawyer at Bird & Bird which is acting for the society, said it faced a long and expensive process to regain the rights to the domain name.=20 "They thought they had renewed the domain name but that didn't happen, and some- one else now owns a domain that has a strong association with another organisation.=20 "There are several options. You can deal direct with the new owner and hope they are reasonable and get it back through negotiations.=20 "The next option is to go to arbitration, which can take a lot of time and does not provide financial recompense. Ultimate Solutions Inc have been involved in these sorts of things before, and have won all arbitration cases."=20 As the lawyers go to work, the Poetry Society faces huge debts as a result.=20 "We will have to reprint our stationery, and restart school initiatives," said Ms Patterson.=20 "We were hoping to make our first ever surplus this year of around =A31,500, but I think this going to cost us =A320,000." ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 13:15:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrea Baker Subject: seeking contact info for Saskia Hamilton In-Reply-To: <61.1cd8b25d.29cb4538@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hello, I would like to find contact information for Saskia Hamilton. Please backchannel if you can help. Thank you in advance, Andrea -- Andrea Baker associate poetry editor 3rd Bed http://www.3rdBed.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:46:50 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Boston Poetry Marathon Subject: Email or mail addresses for Hejinian, B. Mayer, H. Mullen? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hello. If anyone out there has email or regular mail addresses for Lyn Hejinian, Bernadette Mayer, and/or Harryette Mullen, would you please back-channel me at the Boston Poetry Marathon email address: bostonpoetry@thevortex.com. Would surely appreciate your help. Many thanks-- Donna de la Perriere _____________________________________________ Free email with personality! Over 200 domains! http://www.MyOwnEmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:08:13 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT EVENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ANNOUNCEMENTS There will be no readings at the Poetry Project the week of MARCH 25-29. Please visit the April issue of POETS & POEMS (http://www.poetryproject.com/poets.html), featuring work by Renee Gladman, Jena Osman, Sawako Nakayasu, and collaborations by Jen Bervin and Alystyre Julian. POETRY PROJECT EVENTS (http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html) Week of April 1-5 APRIL 1, MONDAY [8:00 p.m.] OPEN READING Sign-up at 7:30 p.m. APRIL 3, WEDNESDAY [8:00 p.m.] RENEE GLADMAN AND KRISTIN PREVALLET RENEE GLADMAN's book Juice was published by Kelsey St. Press in 2000. She is also the author of two chapbooks, Arlem (Idiom Press) and Not Right Now (Second Story Books). She is currently editor of the chapbook imprint, Leroy, which she founded to publish emerging writers. KRISTIN PREVALLET is a poet who writes literary essays and cultural criticism. She is the author of Scratch Sides (Skanky Possum Press) and The Parasite Poems (Potes and Poets Press), forthcoming in Fall 2002. She is currently co-editing, with Olivier Brossard and Marcella Durand, an anthology of poetry written in French from 1968 to the present. APRIL 5, FRIDAY CONNECT CONNECT: art.politics.theory.practice, a new resolutely interdisciplinary journal presents an evening of experimental video and film that make unexpected connections between technology, performance, politics and the craft of art. Featuring Janie Geiser, Meredith Holch, Jack Waters and others. [10:30 pm] -- Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $7, $4 for students and seniors, and $3 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, the corner of 2nd Avenue and 10th Street in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or visit our Web site at http://www.poetryproject.com. If you are currently on our email list and would like to be on our regular mailing list (so you can receive a sample issue of The Poetry Project Newsletter for FREE), just reply to this email with your full name and address. Hope to hear from you soon!!! ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 15:42:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Interview with Paul Seesaquasis about the Canada Council's Spoken and Electronic Words Program In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 8BIT THE CANADA COUNCIL'S SPOKEN AND ELECTRONIC WORDS PROGRAM An interview by Jim Andrews with Paul Seesaquasis, Writing and Publishing Section Officer of the Canada Council. The interview outlines the Canada Council's Spoken and Electronic Words program that awards grants to Canadian artists and encourages them to apply. ANDREWS: What is the Spoken and Electronic Words program at the Canada Council, Paul? SEESAQUASIS: It's a relatively new program - in existence since 1999 - that supports innovative literary projects that are not based on conventional book or magazine formats. This is a diverse program - eligible projects include literary performance, rap poetry, storytelling and poetry videos - as well as digital literary creation such as web sites and CD-ROMs. To apply to the program an artist needs to be a Canadian citizen or permanent resident of Canada; the program does support collaborative projects between, say, a Canadian artist and an American, as long as the application comes from the Canadian artist. Grant amounts range from $1,000 to $20,000 and are for creation, production, performance, or dissemination of the literary creation. It is an annual program, meaning it has one deadline per year - June 01, 2002 is the next - and applications are downloadable off the Canada Council web site (http://canadacouncil.ca). Applications to the Spoken and Electronic Words program are submitted to a peer assessment committee comprised of spoken and electronic word artists who are not applying. Based upon their assessment of each project and the budget available, grants are awarded. The success rate is roughly one in four applications. I should also mention that for digital literary projects, priority is given to projects that involve literary innovation and a creative use of the medium. If an artist is interested in applying to the program, I suggest they call me (or Carole Boucher for French language projects). As a program officer I am here to answer questions regarding the program. My number at the Canada Council is 1-800-263-5588, ext. 5482 or e-mail at paul.seesequasis@canadacouncil.ca ANDREWS: Electronic and spoken word projects tend to be very different from one another. Does the same jury work on both types of projects? SEESAQUASIS: There is quite a difference between spoken word projects and electronic words projects. Spoken Word projects are most often focussed on literary performance or recording literary work onto CD or CD-ROM. In contrast, electronic words projects are digital in nature, have a high integration of technology and art, and there is often an element of experimentation in them. For this reason, in the English language competition, there are now seperate peer assessment committees for electronic and spoken words. ANDREWS: What are the elements of a good proposal to your program? I realize that you have covered that, to some extent, in what you've said above. But are there some general categories, including things like a budget, proposed venues for the finished project, and other elements not directly concerning the nature of the work itself, that are important? And how about the discussion in the proposal of the work itself--what sort of topics should be addressed? I think a lot of artists lack a sense of what a good proposal should cover. SEESAQUASIS: Describe what you want to do. Present your plan in such a way that someone who has never heard of you can understand your vision. Pass it on to a friend for a read and listen to your friend - if something doesn't make sense to him or her, it likely won't make sense to the jury (peer assessment committee). Write about how you intend to organize your time to carry out the project. Present your plan clearly and succinctly, allowing the peer assessment committee to grasp the nature, intent and relevance of your project in relation to your artistic approach. State what you will accomplish with the grant. Remember, you are writing for artists who work in electronic literature. The peer assessment committees appreciate clear and concise résumés. List the locations and dates of a) your art training (professional experience, university, college, or workshops, etc.), and b) your professional public presentations (exhibitions, screenings, publications, etc.). Clearly indicate the relevant information for the digital works that you have created in your professional (non-student) art practice. You may wish to include other activities relevant to your artistic practice, or activities that demonstrate the recognition of your peers. Make sure your résumé does not exceed three pages, and that the most recent activities are listed first. Remember that information that does not relate to your career as an artist is not required. The support material you should submit should reflect the nature of your artistic work. Insure that you have clearly indentified what you want to be seen - for instance, if it a web site, include a path of direction so that the peer assessment committee sees exactly what you want them to see. Also, if at all possible, enclose a copy of your site on CD-ROM - in case your site happens to be down on the day of the jury. Remember that the peer assessment committees have a limited time in which to study each grant application so don't expect them to spend hours searching through your work. Your budget should be clear as to what expenses you are requesting and those items should be necessary to complete your project. Subsistence costs are fine but cannot exceed $2000 per month. You do not need to include quotes or receipts, but remember that the peer assessment committee will have experience in costing so your numbers should be accurate. Purchases of software or other items must be absolutely necessary for your work. Do not expect the peer assessment committee to support "buying a new computer" or something that vague. Finally, if you have other sources of revenue - including in-kind, donations or coporate/private/public support do include that in your budget. ANDREWS: I imagine that some people might tend to put in great proposals but when you compare the proposal with the previous work, they don't fit together? Does that happen much? SEESAQUASIS: Yes it does happen. It's important to be realistic in your project and impress upon the peer assessment committee that you are fully capable of fulfilling your goals. Your previous work should inspire confidence in the committee that your work is capable of progressing to the stage that you are proposing. A "great leap forward" may be met with skepticism by the committee. And, as always, bear in mind that the electronic word competition is very competitive so put your best foot forward, so to speak, but do not try and do a long jump. ANDREWS: Yet the Electronic and Spoken Word program puts an emphasis on innovation. So that's a tough one, because if you're going to be innovative, that requires a long jump, so that unless you have a history of innovation, or have gone very far over a few years, it would be natural for a jury to be skeptical that you are going to do it now. In such case, I suppose there are various ways to support one's claims. Like if you're in mid air, send a photo? SEESAQUASIS: A good point. If you are in mid-air show it. In the end it may not turn out exactly as you envisioned but you can show, at least, that you have done the training to get there. The program welcomes innovation but there are two important points you need to convey to the committee. The first is your project desciption and that you have a clear idea of your project and are able to explain clearly and, ideally, excite the committee about it. Also, if you have a demo or prototype or whatever you want to call it ready to show then the committee gets a better sense of what the end result may be. ANDREWS: Thanks, Paul. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 02:57:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: SUICIDE IN METRO-DADE: "BECAUSE WE CARE" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - SUICIDE IN METRO-DADE: "BECAUSE WE CARE" $ WELCOME: /lost/hole/of/west-miami: WELCOME:: not found $ FOR YOUR PROTECTION: /lost/hole/of/west-miami: FOR: not found $ ALL METRO-DATE POLICE /lost/hole/of/west-miami: ALL: not found $ OFFICERS ARE AUTHORIZED /lost/hole/of/west-miami: OFFICERS: not found $ REPRESENTATIVES TO ADVISE /lost/hole/of/west-miami: REPRESENTATIVES: not found $ ANY PERSON TO LEAVE THESE /lost/hole/of/west-miami: ANY: not found $ PREMISES. FAILURE TO LEAVE /lost/hole/of/west-miami: PREMISES.: not found $ THE PREMISES AFTER BEING /lost/hole/of/west-miami: THE: not found $ INSTRUCTED MAY RESULT IN /lost/hole/of/west-miami: INSTRUCTED: not found $ AN ARREST FOR TRESPASS /lost/hole/of/west-miami: AN: not found $ AFTER WARNING. /lost/hole/of/west-miami: AFTER: not found $ BECAUSE /lost/hole/of/west-miami: BECAUSE: not found $ WE CARE... /lost/hole/of/west-miami: WE: not found Script done on Sat Mar 23 02:45:23 2002 Fla. State Statute 8.10.08 and 8.10.09 script; sed 's/usr/lost/g' typescript > zz; sed 's/local/hole/g' zz > typescript; sed 's/bin/of/g' typescript > zz; sed 's/ksh/nikuko/g' zz > typescript; mv typescript zz; sed 's/nikuko/west-miami/g' zz > yy; mv yy zz _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 17:01:48 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: Re: AWOL journals Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hiya Arielle etal, I think two girls review did their last issue quite a few years ago, unless I am mistaken. I was in what I think is the last issue, after a 2 year wait to hear and then a 2 year wait/wonder for it to appear, if I am remembering correctly. Have been having the same wait (as you I mean) for Big Allis, and also for Raddle Moon. Any word about those? My love to busy editors everywhere, Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 22:19:27 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Mona Lisa Goes Online Comments: To: new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu, EPOUND-L@lists.maine.edu, Psyche-Arts@academyanalyticarts.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mona Lisa Goes Online in Louvre Web Site Revamp By Rebecca Harrison Reuters PARIS (March 22) - Paris's Louvre is revamping its Web site so art lovers can view its entire collection, including thousands of drawings unseen by museum visitors, without ever setting foot in France. The Louvre Web site already displays some of the museum's exhibits and gets six million visits a year, as many as flock to the French capital to see Leonardo da Vinci's ''Mona Lisa'' and other famous works up close. All 35,000 of its exhibits will be on show at the revamped site announced on Friday. Directors hope the upgrade will give more people across the globe access to the world's biggest museum. Online visitors will also be able to see a further 130,000 drawings, which are too fragile for public display and can only be seen by appointment. From next year visitors to the site, almost half of whom are currently North Americans, will be able to see the huge collection in a virtual, three-dimensional tour of the museum's galleries. ''This way the entire Louvre collection will be accessible to everyone,'' Internet Director Catherine Jaques told Reuters after a presentation of the site, adding the plan was to make the Louvre ''the world's biggest virtual museum.'' The 165,000 works will be online by 2003, before the museum launches the second phase of the revamp, aimed at enabling websurfers to create their own personalized Louvre Internet service, Jaques said. ''It will be a case of 'My Louvre' -- so if somebody is a big Mona Lisa fan they will receive information about the Mona Lisa,'' she said. And those who make it to France's most visited cultural site will eventually be able to immortalize their visit by downloading information from portable audioguides onto handheld computers or third generation mobile telephones. Museum chiefs hope the new site will push hits up to between 10 and 15 million per year by 2010. Reut10:43 03-22-02 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:03:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: | sym In-Reply-To: <001d01c1d146$c1ade700$052337d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII This has nothing to do with JJ - this is an awk transformation on the text I wrote which comes out of Emerson. Alan Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:33:58 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "David A. Kirschenbaum" Subject: Boogcity.com launch party, April Fool's Day, NYC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit PLEASE FORWARD _____________________ “I pity the fool that don’t show up for the launch of boogcity.com!” Monday April Fool’s Day the C-Note 157 Avenue C (&10th St.) NYC 9 p.m. $5 with poems from Joanna Fuhrman and music from Joe Jackson’s illegitimate son Daniel Saltzman Olive Juice recording artists Major Matt Mason USA olivejuicemusic.com/majormattmasonusa.html and Schwervon olivejuicemusic.com/schwervon.html and The Veronica Complex www.geocities.com/veronicacomplex and see the Web site, designed by Mark Crutch, webmaster to the stars, projected. and get copies of Boog City issue 5, the Antifolk issue, featuring Major Matt’s U.K. tour journal. hosted by Boog City editor David Kirschenbaum For further information call 212.206.8899 email editor@boogcity.com -------------- apologies to those receving this announcement multiple times. If you wish to be removed from this list, please let me know, as we are revising our elist. Thanks! -- David A. Kirschenbaum, editor and publisher Boog City 351 W.24th St., Suite 19E NY, NY 10011-1510 T: (212) 206-8899 F: (212) 206-9982 editor@boogcity.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:03:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: caroline crumpacker Subject: New Reading Series...new info. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm sorry to email you all again but, as you may have noticed, the last message I sent you was missing one line of information. Forgive me for this inadvertent slip...here is all the information you need and more... INTRODUCING a new reading series featuring bilingual readings of poetry in translation April 4: A Celebration of the work of Christophe Tarkos Featuring readings by Stacy Doris, Chet Wiener, and Jonathan Skinner Translators from Christophe Tarkos: Ma Langue Est Poetique - Selected Work In French and English April 18: Duration Press Presents Ryoko Sekiguchi Duration Press editor Jerrold Shiroma will read with Ryoko Sekiguchi. In French, Japanese and English May 9: Contemporary Poetry by Mexican Women Jen Hofer and Dolores Dorantes read from a forthcoming anthology In Spanish and English May 16: Chinese Poetries Featuring Yunte Huang, author of SHI, a Radical Reading of Chinese Poetry. In Chinese and English The authors' books will be available for sale at these programs. All programs will take place in the Margaret Berger Forum of The New York Public Library, Fifth Avenue and 42nd Street, New York City. Readings begi= n at 7:00 p.m. and are free and open to the public: advance registration required. To register or for more information, please call (212) 930-0855 between 1:30 and 4:30 p.m., weekdays. Readers' Biographies: April 4: Stacy Doris' books written in English include Conference (Potes & Poets) Paramour (Krupskaya 2000), and Kildare (Roof, 1995). Written semi-anonymously in French are La vie de Chester Steven Wiener =E9crite par s= a femme (P.O.L, 1998), and Chroniques new-yorkaises, (P.O.L, 2000). She has edited a dossier of new American writing in French for Java, and co-edited the following collections of French poetry translated by American poets: with Chet Wiener, Christophe Tarkos: Ma Langue est Po=E9tique--Selected Work (New York: Roof) 2001; with Norma Cole, Twenty-two New (to North America) French Poets (Vancouver: Raddle Moon) 1997; with Emmanuel Hocquard), Violence of the White Page, Contemporary French Poetry in Translation (Santa Fe, NM: Pederal) 1992. Jonathan Skinner is currently pursuing a PhD in Poetics at SUNY-Buffalo, where, with partner Isabelle Pelissier, he curates the Steel Bar reading series, and edits Ecopoetics. His poems, essays and translations (from French, Spanish and Old Occitan) have appeared in numerous magazines, including Curricle Patterns, Elevator, Gare du Nord, Jacket, Lagniappe, La main de singe, murmur, The Transcendental Friend and verdure. Recent chapbooks include Political Cactus Poems (Periplum Editions, 1998), and Little Dictionary of Sounds (Red D Lines, 2001). Christophe Tarkos was born in Marseilles in 1964. Since his first book, Morceaux choisis, which appeared in 1995, he has published at least 25 volumes of poetry. He describes himself overall as "slow". After giving u= p teaching history in a grammar school, he worked as a substitute fare collector at highway toll booths. He has collaborated with a number of contemporary French writers, artists, and composers, including Katalin Moln=E1r, Pascal Doury, and Eryck Abecassis. He has presented perhaps a record number of poetry readings, improvisations and performances, touring 51 European cities in 1999 alone. Chet Wiener has translated a number of French writers, including Pierre Alferi (Yale Book of Twentieth- Century Poetry, 2002), F=E9lix Guattari (Soft Subversions, with David Sweet, Semiotext(e) 1996; Chaosophy, with David Sweet, et al., Semiotext(e) 1995 ), and Agn=E8s Rouzier, Cyb=E8le Lhermite and Albane Prouvost in reviews. His poetry in English has appeared in Crayon, Epoch, Object, Torque and elsewhere, as well as in the Biennale Internationale des Po=E8tes en Val-de-Marne (1996, translated by Emmanuel Hocquard), and in French in Java and if. In 1999 his WalkDontWalk was published at Potes and Poets, after having been translated into French as Marchez ne courez pas (Cr=E9aphis, 1998, Anne Talvas, et al.). He currently lives in Paris where he researches topics in sixteenth-century French literature and philosophy, is engaged in a photographic project on construction sites and the airport, and works as a professional translator. April 18: Ryoko Sekiguchi was born in 1970. In 1988, she was awarded the 26th Contemporary Poetry Prize in Japan. Since 1997, she has lived in Paris, &,i= n 1999 began to translate her own work from Japanese into French. She has als= o translated into French, the work of Gozo Yoshimasu, &, into Japanese, the work of Abdelwahab Meddeb. Her books, in French, are _Calque_ (P.O.L, 2001)= , & _Cassiopee Peca_ (cipM, 2001). Jerrold Shiroma was born & raised in San Diego, California. After spending five years in the San Francisco Bay Area, he recently moved to Providence, Rhode Island, & attends Brown University. He is involved in numerous print = & on-line publishing projects, including: editing & publishing duration press= , which publishes a chapbook series dedicated primarily to contemporary poetr= y in translation, & a forthcoming newsletter of contemporary French poetry; directing & maintaining the durationpress.com internet project, which house= s work by over 100 contemporary international poets & provides free to low-cost web-hosting services to over 30 small presses; & is a member of th= e editorial board for the on-line journal double change. His publications include the chapbooks 2 poems (a+bend press, 2000), & untitled object (Pote= s & Poets Press, 2000). May 9: Dolores Dorantes is originally from C=F3rdoba, Veracruz, and currentl= y lives in Ciudad Ju=E1rez, Chihuahua. She is co-editor, with Juan Manuel Portillo, of Editoria= l Frugal, which counts among its activities publication of the monthly broadside series Hoja Frugal, printed in editions of 1000 and distributed free throughout Mexico. Her books and chapbook= s include SexoPUROsexoVELOZ (Cuadernos del filodecaballo, Guadalajara, 2002), Para Bernardo: un eco (MUB editoraz, Mexico City, 2000), Poemas para ni=F1os (Ediciones El Tuc=E1n de Virginia, Mexico City, 1999) and A t=EDtulo de muestra (Instituto Chihuahuense de la Cultura, Chihuahua, 1996). Her poems and critical writings can be found in recent issue= s of Cr=F3nica, La Jornada, Provincetown Arts Journal and Tripwire. Jen Hofer is originally from the San Francisco Bay Area, and currently divides her time between Mexico City and Los Angeles. She is the editor & translator of an anthology of contemporary poetry by Mexican women which will be co-published by University of Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre in 2003. Her other works include_as far as_ (a+bend, 1999), "Laws," (A.BACUS, Potes & Poets Press, 2001) and _The 3:15 Experiment_ (in conjunction with Lee Ann Brown, Danika Dinsmore and Bernadette Mayer, The Owl Press, 2001). Her first book of poems, _Slide Rule_, will be published by subpress early in 2002. Her poems and translations can be found in recent or shortly forthcoming issues of Antennae, Aufgabe, Chain (in collaboration with Patrick Durgin), Conundrum, HOW2, PomPom, and Tripwire. May 16: Yunte Huang was born in China and came to the U.S. in 1991 after finishing his B.A. at Peking University. He then lived in Tuscalossa, Alabama for three years before entering the Ph.D. program at SUNY-Buffalo. Since 1999 he has been Assistant Professo= r of English at Harvard, where he teaches modernism and Asian American literature. He is author of _SHI: A Radical Reading of Chinese Poetry_ (Roof Books, 1997), and _Transpacific Displacement: Ethnography, Translation, and Intertextual Travel in Twentieth-Century American Literature (Univ of California Press, 2002). He is also translator into Chinese of Ezra Pound's _Cantos_ and of _Language Poetry_. Huang's poems and essays have appeared i= n Prairie Schooner, Tinfish, boundary 2, Central Park, River City, XPC: Cross-Cultural Poetics, and other journals. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:26:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: ...the end of human life In-Reply-To: <001401c1d146$3b9dd580$052337d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII A couple of things in response to Richard - first, it's not bemoaning a zeitgeist of every generation - I don't believe so much in cyclicity as in exponentiality corrupted by (stochastic) chaos - things are reaching edges and lips we couldn't have dreamed of a generation or two ago. The verge is frightening. One only has to look at things such as rates of flora/fauna extinctions, air pollution, dissemination of weapons, etc. For me this is also coupled with a propensity towards depression - and a deeper feeling that depression is also a certain kind of truth (I'm think- ing of Kristeva's writing in Black Sun here). I fight off the depression as best I can, but not the truth, such as it is. (Note the qualifiers.) On the other hand, I'm fairly outspoken politically here, which may or may not get me into trouble. - It's not a question of giving up, but of developing the inertial impulse to continue. Of course I'm only speaking for myself. - Alan ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 23:47:45 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: gene Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution In-Reply-To: <000a01c1d1cf$ef5a6a00$6e01a8c0@verizon.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed possibly a convicted murderer in mexico. gene At 01:32 PM 3/22/02 -0500, you wrote: > Hi Gene, > > Not so sure who they are but I do know that drugs are not an >answer for much. But the combination of drug culture is intertwined in >the avant garde, for better and worse. Who would Burroughs be without >his morphine? > > > Best, Geoffrey > >-----Original Message----- >From: UB Poetics discussion group >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of gene >Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:34 PM >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution > >yep, yep. real revolution when laid out stoned. that'll change >society. >in fact, that's just the sort of revolution those guys want. > > >Gene > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Geoffrey Gatza >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Date: Wednesday, March 20, 2002 11:47 AM >Subject: Re: The Drug of Revolution > > > >Pre-modernist surrealists > >"L'amore di Isidore Ducasse > >conte di Lautreamont" > > > > > > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug > >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary > >avant-gardism.) :) > > > > > > > >The drug is the revolution of body / mind from the ageless reason. It >is >the > >frontier story. One person on a quest to find what is there. It is a >lonely > >quest full of hardships but one fraught with adventure. It turns >surrealism > >to realism. That factor alone makes time drip. > > > > > > > > Best, Geoffrey > > > > > >Geoffrey Gatza > >editor BlazeVOX2k2 > >http://vorplesword.com/ > > __o > > _`\<,_ > > (*)/ (*) > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: UB Poetics discussion group > >[mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Jullich > >Sent: Friday, March 15, 2002 12:05 AM > >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > >Subject: working class poetry and The Myth of Revolution > > > >Ron Silliman wrote: > > > >> To confuse those people with $150K networking > >consultants or junior accountants at Andersen who plan > >to make partner (or planned to, anyway, before > >Andersen blew up in its own corruptness) and who think > >of W as being too far to the left is to yield a pretty > >incoherent picture.< > > > > > >(It may be a sign of my own creeping conservatism, but > >I personally feel uncomfortable with gratuitous > >vilification of financial industry professionals. As > >if there were no James Sherry. And now especially, > >after the wholesale slaughter of them in the tens of > >hundreds and the leveling force of the Grim Reaper's > >scythe has painfully revealed them to be/to have been > >little more than workers in their own right. But > >that's not my point here . . .) > > > > > >Isn't all this discussion of class and class > >obligations within poetry missing its propelling > >factor, without any corollary sense of ~revolution~ > >and the poet-revolutionary? Any attempted analysis of > >class, even from a rightist consumer-exploitative > >stance, has its basis and origin in, of course, Marx's > >class theories. And that Marxist, post-Marxist or > >quasi-Marxist always took its motivating force aginst > >class from variously manifested versions of > >"revolution." > > > >I have recently been reinvestigating Surrealism, . . . > >which partly lost its saliency because the > >"engagement" [pronounced "on-gozh-mon-t'"] of > >Existentialist commitment segued better into the > >concrete '68 revolutions, . . . and its genuine, > >troubled political dimension: Breton co-authored a > >paper with Trotsky, many Surrealists "defected" from > >the Surrealist Revolution into Communist Party > >membership, etc.; so, it's much on mine my mind how, > >where, and when both real collaboration with > >"revolutionary" political movements and social forces > >or a ~myth~ of revolution fuelled the XXth century > >avant-garde we're the inheritors of. > > > >The line forward from Surrealism and the October > >Revolution is fairly easy to draw: Surrealism out of > >the more short-lived, nihilistic and less articulated > >Dada forward into Lettrism, Situationism, and perhaps > >Lacan and post-structuralism. But I find myself > >faltering --- I need more research or education into > >the pre-history of Modernism --- in trying to trail > >the line backward chronologically. The Modernist > >precursors, the Impressionists in painting and Les > >Symbolistes in poetry, although formally often > >continuous with the Cubisms and -isms that flowed out > >of or were spawned in reaction against them, on the > >face of things do not exactly appear to be > >~revolutionary~ in the same sense: rather, the Manet > >depictions of men in waist coats and top hats as the > >~celebration~ of haute bougeoisie, the Monet leisure, > >etc., and, in poetry, end-of-an-era decadence rather > >than a generative "revolution,"--- a decadence, > >albeit, whose obscurantism remains larger the > >prototype and starting point of Modernist and > >post-modern obscurantisms, including the current > >"asyntactical." > > > >However, despite the occasional formal resemblances, > >--- and I know that here and there there must indeed > >have been counter examples of sympathies for the > >emergent splinter group pre-October Socialists and > >utopians that I just am uneducated about, such as (?) > >the younger American Whitman or Hawthorne's and the > >Transcendalists' Fourier communes --- these > >precursors, again, rather than being anti-"capitalist" > >seem to typify an ~epitome~ of capital, and their > >aesthetic revolution to be on the plane of, say, > >innovation in the fashion design of ~haute couture~ > >clothes, glass stemware (Lalique, Tiffany), and such. > > > > > >The ~ultra-moderne~ rather than Modernist > >"revolution." > > > >For want of a better word, I'm thinking of that high > >capitalist ~semblable~ of later anti-capitalist > >avant-garde as "High Style." (Maybe it's a > >Mannerism.) Regardless, it represents a legitimate > >moment where formalist relatedness conceals political > >antithesis, and demonstrates a Modernism that was > >fully dedicated to capital, rather than class > >revolution. > > > > > >(And there was pre-Modernist or even anti-Modernist, > >non avant-garde revolutionary art: the realist > >classicism of Jean-Louis David's ~Tennis Court Oath,~ > >etc., which commemorated political upheavals and > >~coups d'etat.~) > > > > > >And, --- pessimistically? --- I wonder if we haven't > >come full cycle and, fin-de-siecle again, at the > >turning point of both centuries, whether our > >particular historical branch --- "hippy" revolutionary > >Beat > Black Mountain > Language --- hasn't had the > >revolutionary myth effectively drain out of it, --- so > >that our current uneasy condition is a ~vestigial~ lip > >service to "revolution" but a reversion to High Style > >"bourgeois"/middle class conservatism. The > >discrepancy between the lived careerism and MFA-ing of > >poetry, the (first generation) New York School > >buttoning up back into shocking neckties and blazers > >versus the Beat dishevelment, (the journal ~Fence~?) > >--- aren't we in a position like the earliest > >Modernists, living "the good life," fully trafficking > >in the pleasures of capital, and ~only~ observing a > >superficial (hypocritical?) ~trace~ > >pseudo-revolutionariness in formal aesthetic > >experimentalism (an experimentalism that has, > >meanwhile, obviously become its own paradoxical > >conservatisim of an "alternative tradition," perhaps > >in fact the ~sole~ keepers of tradition)? > > > >The point being that, without revolution, including a > >revolutionary ideology for poetry (~Revolution dans la > >Langue Poetique~?), class is merely class,--- and > >discussion about its frictions is just moot, neither > >here nor there: it's all missing its necessary > >leverage ("revolution"). > > > >...................................................... > > > >Incidentally,--- > > > >(Any "revolutionary" agenda, of course, is currently > >badly compromised or stifled, like the tepid street > >protests against the recent World Economic Forum, by > >revolution's indistinguishability from terrorism, or, > >for that matter, berserk schizophrenic violence [the > >newspaper-certified "schizophrenic" shooting up a post > >office, and Baden Meinhof-ish shooting up a post > >office], and the reasonable-seeming total clamp-down > >of new social controls and revoked civil liberties.) > > > > > >(. . . And something should later be said about "Drug > >Culture," the most covert co-factor of revolutionary > >avant-gardism.) :) > > > > > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Sports - live college hoops coverage > >http://sports.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:16:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sylvester Pollet Subject: ideal realms Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've been asked to forward this query that appeared on the Utopian Studies list. Please respond directly to the sender (not a member of this list), though it might be an interesting thread here also. Sylvester >I am planning to write a book on "make-believe worlds," and I am looking fo= r >examples of imaginative group narratives, that is, people living in >deliberately constructed imaginary worlds, or virtual realities, or extreme >role-playing scenarios that =97 and this distinction is crucial -- do not >exist solely in cyberspace. It could be a family, a small community, a >commune, an artist=92s colony gone over the edge, a university experiment, = or >a couple of friends at the very least. I am not really interested in folks >who dress up as elves, but in more esoteric experiments. Although many of u= s >conduct our lives as if they were, in part, virtual or imaginary, I am >looking for extreme examples of people who are living life as if it were >fiction. If you know of any such scenarios, or where I might further pursue >the subject of virtual realms, I would love to hear back from you. I have >previously >written for Harper's, The New York Times Magazine, Chicago Reader, etc. >Very Best, >Jay Kirk > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:09:39 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Ckeveland people? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi Everyone, I'm going to be in Cleveland for a couple of days in mid-April, getting visual reference material for a d.a.levy comic book. Are there Cleveland people on this list? Anyone who can maybe help tell me how (without a car) to best get from for instance the Flats to the Historical Society to 115th & Euclid to the Old Arcade, etc., etc.? I'm doing Google searches and Yahoo Maps searches and so on, so I'm not completely in the dark about where stuff is ... but could definitely use some help figuring out the public transit system there, etc. Help! Please backchannel: gpsullivan@hotmail.com Many kind thanks in advance, Gary _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 19:19:47 -0500 Reply-To: Bob Grumman Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bob Grumman Subject: Re: Poetry Society "evicted" from website MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seems to me an internet space-provider should be allowed to rent space for a domain, and throw a non-paying tenant off his space, but not charge for a domain-name, which a person or group ought by law to be able to purchase permanently. But I certainly don't know much about it. In this case, I would suggest that all those who go to the Poetry Society and find crap-ads send five or ten e.mails to Universal Solutions a day and any other legal thing they can think of to express their disgust with Universal Solutions' piracy. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ron" > To: > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 8:40 AM > Subject: Poetry Society "evicted" from website > > > Poetry Society evicted from its website to sell Viagra not verse > Paul Kelso > Thursday March 21, 2002 > The Guardian > > "As I was trawling on the net, I found my site I couldn't get. I > couldn't get it again today, why has my website gone away?" > > With apologies to Hughes Mearn, the Poetry Society could be forgiven for > adapting his verse after its website became the victim of a curious case > of cyber-squatting. > > The society's award-winning website (www.poetrysoc.com) was until last > week a rare literary success in cyberspace, attracting 300,000 hits a > month. But last Thursday visitors found the site had gone from verse to > bad. > > Instead of the usual selection of new poetry and educational > initiatives, they found a directory of online services ranging from > internet casinos to hair loss treatment and viagra distributors. > > This was more than a technical problem. Thanks to an administrative > lapse, the Poetry Society - or its internet service provider, Total Web > Solutions - had not renewed its registration of the domain name, > allowing Ultimate Search Inc, a Hong Kong based company, to purchase it > and become the legal owners. > > Why a search directory registered to a PO box in Hong Kong should want a > domain name that Andrew Motion and Roger McGough count among their > bookmarks is not clear, but their actions are beyond a joke for the > society. > > As well as losing its main point of contact with the public, the > society's email is being sent to a server in Hong Kong. > > On Monday it had to reprint 32,000 leaflets with a new web address > (www.poetrysociety.org.uk) which it hopes will go live today, and the > saga could cost the society, a registered charity sustained by the Arts > Council and 3,500 members, up to £20,000 in legal fees. > > Ultimate Search Inc has not replied to emails and telephone calls from > lawyers acting for the Poetry Society, and yesterday did not respond to > a message left by the Guardian. > > "We've spent five years building up our award winning website and it's > pretty devastating to have the name taken over like this," said > Christina Patterson, director of the Poetry Society. > > "We were getting 300,000 hits a month. It seems remarkable that a > company promoting gambling and viagra should use the name of a charity > set up to promote poetry." > > Jane Mutimear, a lawyer at Bird & Bird which is acting for the society, > said it faced a long and expensive process to regain the rights to the > domain name. > > "They thought they had renewed the domain name but that didn't happen, > and some- one else now owns a domain that has a strong association with > another organisation. > > "There are several options. You can deal direct with the new owner and > hope they are reasonable and get it back through negotiations. > > "The next option is to go to arbitration, which can take a lot of time > and does not provide financial recompense. Ultimate Solutions Inc have > been involved in these sorts of things before, and have won all > arbitration cases." > > As the lawyers go to work, the Poetry Society faces huge debts as a > result. > > "We will have to reprint our stationery, and restart school > initiatives," said Ms Patterson. > > "We were hoping to make our first ever surplus this year of around > £1,500, but I think this going to cost us £20,000." > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:57:36 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher W. Alexander" Subject: Guy Debord MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -- Subj: Films by Guy Debord Date: 3/26/02 2:33:03 PM Eastern Standard Time From: knabb@slip.net (Bureau of Public Secrets) To: knabb@slip.net (Bureau of Public Secrets) After being withheld from circulation for 17 years, all six of Guy Debord's films were screened at the 2001 Venice Film Festival and it was announced that they would all be made generally available again in spring 2002. The opening is now scheduled for April 9-11 in Paris. Ken Knabb has been asked by Alice Debord to make a new English translation of Debord's complete filmscripts. This translation will be used for subtitling, and will also be published in book form. If all goes well it is likely that subtitled versions of all the films will be available within the next year or so. Meanwhile, you can find out more about Debord's films at: http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/films.htm (soundtracks of two of the shorter films) http://www.bopsecrets.org/PS/Debordfilm.htm (on his film adaptation of his book "The Society of the Spectacle") http://www.bopsecrets.org/SI/bibliog.htm (filmography and latest news) * * * The Bureau of Public Secrets website features numerous texts by and about Guy Debord and other members of the Situationist International, the notorious avant-garde group that helped trigger the May 1968 revolt in France. BUREAU OF PUBLIC SECRETS P.O. Box 1044, Berkeley CA 94701 http://www.bopsecrets.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 14:33:55 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Christopher W. Alexander" Subject: Poetics List outage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The Poetics List has been off-line for several days after UB's Computing and Information Technology office inadvertently (i.e., damn'd irresponsibly) deleted our account without prior notification. Unfortunately, messages sent to the list over the past few days were deleted at the same stroke. With any luck, messages sent after the event will have bounced back to their senders - or they may have been caught in a loop between the listserv server and the non-existent account - or gone reeling off into cyberspace with a damaged x-wing - I honestly don't know. If your message was bounced, or if you have retained a copy of a message that has gone missing - or retain a dim memory of such a message - please feel free to send it to the list again. Apologies for the inconvenience. Christopher W. Alexander poetics list moderator ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 13:16:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: Hoa Nguyen's Spring Virtual Poetry Workshop Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hoa Nguyen's Spring 2002 Virtual Poetry Workshop will begin on Thursday April 4. For application guidelines, please write to the workshop leader Hoa Nguyen at nguyenhoa@hotmail.com. (Please note that the workshop is designed for people of high-school age). To get an idea of how Hoa runs her workshop, check out the archived workshops at http://www.writenet.org/virtualpoetrywrkshp.html. It's really a great (and free) opportunity for student writers to develop some pretty radical ideas about the possibilities for poetry. --daniel ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 11:23:58 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christopher Martin Subject: Puppy Flowers: The Sequel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear List- Well, it has been almost half a year since Puppy Flowers first burst onto the glaring screens of America’s technological consciousness. Most, like Brendan Lorber, were enamored by its "tough feminine marvelousness and street swagger," while others, like elder statesman Ron Padgett, were more struck by how online journals tend to hurt one’s eyes. So true, so true. Thanks to a committed and discerning sticker campaign, Puppy Flowers has been spotted at bus stops and in public restrooms all over the country. Now, I know what you’re thinking—-bus stops and public bathrooms...that’s exactly when and where I want to jump online and do a little literary surfing!—-great minds think alike. It is now my instinctual pup pleasure to announce the Issue Two Release party! In celebration of PF2, and on the very night the new site goes up, many will flock to, some merely gather at, Blue Books in San Francisco for a shake-the-room blooming party. The reading will take place on Thursday, April 4th at 7:30 PM. Readers will include Micah Ballard, kari edwards, Chris Martin, Dave Bryant, Colin Guthrie, Christina Fisher, and the esteemed Patrick James Dunagan. Blue Books is located at 766 Valencia St. in the Mission and is otherwise known as the New College Cultural Center. Both MC's and refreshments will be served. Hope to see you there, Chris Martin Poetry Editor of Puppy Flowers www.puppyflowers.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® http://movies.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 09:02:20 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daisy Fried Subject: reading Comments: To: ethel_rackin@yahoo.com, gregfuchspoetry@earthlink.net, Dlyngard@aol.com, katie@CritPath.Org, KandFBand@aol.com, GasHeart@aol.com, info@leeway.org, pewarts@mindspring.com, whpoets@english.upenn.edu, wwhitma@waltwhitmancenter.org, wh@dept.english.upenn.edu, sam@citypaper.net, sadorno@philamuseum.org, brady@sealworks.com, askealicia@aol.com, nanders1@swarthmore.edu Comments: cc: mbackes@law.upenn.edu, pbackes@backesandbackesllp.com, SeeAllMuse@aol.com, sara@leeway.org, sbenston@haverford.edu, Pafringedb@aol.com, tbrady@phillynews.com, cbrevar1@swarthmore.edu, fleda@UDel.Edu, TONIYONI@aol.com, dburnham@sas.upenn.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Daisy Fried reads new poems and poems from _She Didn't Mean to Do It_ Riverside Reading Series Williams Visual Arts Building Lafayette College 243 N. 3rd St. Easton*, PA April 5 at 8 p.m. Directions: http://www.riversidepoetry.org/calendar/index.html#Directions and www.lafayette.edu/community/directions.html *Easton is also the home of the Weyerbacher brewery, which makes extremely fine microbrew, which can be sampled at their downtown brewpub, and is, I believe, also Crayola's hometown. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 10:43:48 -0600 Reply-To: thomas/swiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thomas/swiss Subject: TIR Web//New Issue (April 2002) Available MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" TIR WEB A journal of New Media and experimental writing and art published at the = University of Iowa with support from the Department of English and in = collaboration with The International Writing Program and the Iowa Review. Volume 4, Number 2 (April 2002) TIR Web: =A0 ************************************ =A0 NUMBER #2 + DERVISH FLOWERS "Dervish Flowers" is a shockwave work by French painter Nicolas Clauss and composer Jean-Jaques Berge. Elegant and inventive, the = piece responds to the mouse movements of viewers, putting dancers/flowers = in motion. As the dancers are moved 'off-stage,' a new screen and new = dancers replace them. =20 + Read "With Their Stories or Without," an interview with Nicolas Clauss. = And view the piece... ************************************* =A0 + SHELLEY JACKSON: THE INTERVIEW Shelley Jackson is the author of the classic Patchwork Girl (Eastgate 1995)= , a hypertext novel. Her story collection, The Melancholy of Anatomy, has = just been published by Anchor Books. +Read "Of Dolls & Monsters" An Interview with Shelley Jackson, Winter 2002,= by Rita Raley ************************************* =A0 + WILLIAM POUNDSTONE: WORK AND AN INTERVIEW William Poundstone is the author of eight books--two of them, The = Recursive Universe and Labyrinths of Reason, were nominated for the = Pulitzer Prize. Brian Kim Stefans writes: "What is most striking...is the = easy dexterity with which Poundstone negotiates several different = aesthetic traditions... not to mention the developing traditions of web = art itself which he seemed instictively to know how to exploit to create = an unmistakably 'literary' site that, nonetheless, would not have been = done justice in a book." +Read "An Interview with William Poundstone," by Brian Kim Stefans. View = his "New Digital Emblems."=20 ************************************* =A0 + POEMS BY Marjorie Stelmach FROM THE NEW ISSUE OF THE IOWA REVIEW ************************************* =A0 =A0 =A0 + A TALK ABOUT THE ART OF TRANSLATION BY ELIOT WEINBERGER FROM 91=B0 = MERIDIAN, A NEW JOURNAL FROM THE INTERNATIONAL WRITING PROGRAM ************************************* TIR Web adds new work every two months. Coming up: Interviews with Katherine Hayles,=A0Jay David Bolter, and = others. New work by Talan Memmott,=A0 Meikal And, Catlin Fisher, and = others. ------------------------ ABOUT: Publishing electronic literature since 1999, The Iowa Review Web is well-known for its commitment to new writing. Starting in 2002, TIR Web expanded. It now includes --along with = electronic literature--other varieties of experimental writing and art. It also features interviews with innovative writers and New Media artists, as well = as critical articles and essays. Each issue of TIR Web includes work from both The Iowa Review and 91=B0 Meridian, published by the International Writing Program at the University of Iowa. --------------------- The Iowa Review Web: New Media Poetry Conference, Fall 2002: ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 12:45:12 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Heidi Peppermint Subject: Fwd: Melissa Crowe, Laura Solomon and Heidi Peppermint read Comments: To: english grad students Comments: cc: "carla j. comb" , women's studies , ANASTASIA WRIGHT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii J RICH wrote: Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 11:22:44 -0500 Reply-to: UGA Creative Writing From: J RICH Subject: CWP OPEN MIC AT B&N! To: UGACWP-L@LISTSERV.UGA.EDU The University of Georgia Creative Writing Open Mic night - a monthly open mic reading series featuring UGA Creative Writing Program students and faculty, will be launched this Wednesday, March 27 at 7 p.m. at Barnes and Noble, with readings by Melissa Crowe, Heidi Peppermint and Laura Solomon. --------------------------------- Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards® ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 15:52:20 -0500 Reply-To: Nate and Jane Dorward Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nate and Jane Dorward Subject: Additional Apparitions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thought I'd forward this for Keith & David. -- all best --N Nate & Jane Dorward ndorward@sprint.ca THE GIG magazine: http://pages.sprint.ca/ndorward/files/ 109 Hounslow Ave., Willowdale, ON, M2N 2B1, Canada ph: (416) 221 6865 ----- Original Message ----- From: "D G & C V Kennedy" Sent: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 16:34:25 -0000 Subject: Additional Apparitions Arrives Issue 3/4 of The Paper published as Additional Apparitions: Poetry, Performance & Site Specificity is now available for consumption. Co-edited by David Kennedy & Keith Tuma, it comprises 200pp of essays and other materials by: Steve Benson Caroline Bergvall Lee Ann Brown Cris Cheek Ian Davidson Carla Harryman Tertia Longmire Nathaniel Mackey Peter Middleton Redell Olsen Frances Presley Peter Riley & free with the first 100 copies is Geraldine Monk's specially commissioned West House Books pamphlet Insubstantial Thoughts on the Transubstantiation of the Text. Priced at 9 quid post free in the UK but available for March only to list members at a special price of 7 quid post free. [US and Canadian buyers should contact Keith Tuma at: tumakw@muohio.edu ] So: c'mon, getcha wallets out and give those moths a breath of fresh spring air! cheers David ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:34:29 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: New Book Comments: To: BRITISH-POETS@JISCMAIL.AC.UK, poetryetc@jiscmail.ac.uk Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed announcing the publication of FIGURES : 32 Poems by Mark Weiss published by Chax Press $12 / $10 to Poetry Poetics & Practice list members (shipping/handling will be added) 5 3/4 inches x 9 1/2 inches 32 pages, text offset printed in Tucson, Arizona handsewn into letterpress-printed covers which are Fabriano Ingres paper Two excerpts: II The waitress rubs her nose. She wishes there were someone to talk to in that whole crowd of clatterers. She shifts her weight, leans an elbow on the bar, rests her head. Transslucent ears. When she stands with her back to the light pink to their deepest whorl. XXII The dialects of laughter the dialects of dogs and cats Attention wanders. He trims his beard imagines alternate bone tructures based on a new catalogue of surgical choices . The forms of formlessness, Springtime a set of lines or dots. . Smell of dog food from the kitchen, and the orange pom-pom girl on the tube across the bar. "Get real," we say. To order, either respond with that intention to this email, directly to chaxpress@msn.com, or send check (add $2 shipping/handling for domestic US mail) to Chax Press, 101 W. Sixth St., Tucson, AZ 85701-1000. Or call us at520-620-1626. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 10:46:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: The Poetry Project Subject: POETRY PROJECT EVENTS Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ANNOUNCEMENTS Please visit the April issue of POETS & POEMS (http://www.poetryproject.com/poets.html), featuring work by Renee Gladman, Jena Osman, Sawako Nakayasu, and collaborations by Jen Bervin and Alystyre Julian. POETRY PROJECT EVENTS (http://www.poetryproject.com/calendar.html) Week of April 1-5 APRIL 1, MONDAY [8:00 p.m.] OPEN READING Sign-up at 7:30 p.m. APRIL 3, WEDNESDAY [8:00 p.m.] RENEE GLADMAN AND KRISTIN PREVALLET RENEE GLADMAN's book Juice was published by Kelsey St. Press in 2000. She is also the author of two chapbooks, Arlem (Idiom Press) and Not Right Now (Second Story Books). She is currently editor of the chapbook imprint, Leroy, which she founded to publish emerging writers. KRISTIN PREVALLET is a poet who writes literary essays and cultural criticism. She is the author of Scratch Sides (Skanky Possum Press) and The Parasite Poems (Potes and Poets Press), forthcoming in Fall 2002. She is currently co-editing, with Olivier Brossard and Marcella Durand, an anthology of poetry written in French from 1968 to the present. APRIL 5, FRIDAY CONNECT CONNECT: art.politics.theory.practice, a new resolutely interdisciplinary journal presents an evening of experimental video and film that make unexpected connections between technology, performance, politics and the craft of art. Featuring Janie Geiser, Meredith Holch, Jack Waters and others. [10:30 pm] -- Unless otherwise noted, admission to all events is $7, $4 for students and seniors, and $3 for Poetry Project members. Schedule is subject to change. The Poetry Project is located in St. Mark's Church in-the-Bowery at 131 E. 10th Street, the corner of 2nd Avenue and 10th Street in Manhattan. Trains F, 6, N, R. The Poetry Project is wheelchair accessible with assistance and advance notice. Please call (212) 674-0910 for more information, or visit our Web site at http://www.poetryproject.com. If you are currently on our email list and would like to be on our regular mailing list (so you can receive a sample issue of The Poetry Project Newsletter for FREE), just reply to this email with your full name and address. Hope to hear from you soon!!! ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:03:05 EST Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nuyopoman@AOL.COM Subject: Bowery Poetry Club MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit After Kristin Prevallet and Renee Gladman's reading on Wed. April 3, Janet Hamill and Moving Star will be performing a set at the Bowery Poetry Club. Mention the Poetry Project and get in free; keep mum and it'll be $5. It's doubtful that we'll have a liquor license -- you are welcome to bring your own. Janet will be performing every Wednesday in April -- the comp deal will also be in effect through the month. In fact, the comp deal will remain in effect for Wednesdays until we go broke! www.bowerypoetry.com, www.janethamill.com Virtually Visit Bowery Poetry Club ! www.bowerypoetry.com 173 Duane St #2B NY NY 10013 * 212-334-6414 * F: 212-334-6415 Holman@bard.edu * bobholman.com * poetry.about.com * worldofpoetry.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 19:25:50 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Weiss Subject: New Book Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Announcing the publication of FIGURES : 32 Poems by Mark Weiss published by Chax Press $12 / $10 to Poetry Poetics & Practice list members (shipping/handling will be added) 5 3/4 inches x 9 1/2 inches 32 pages, text offset printed in Tucson, Arizona handsewn into letterpress-printed covers which are Fabriano Ingres paper Two excerpts: II The waitress rubs her nose. She wishes there were someone to talk to in that whole crowd of clatterers. She shifts her weight, leans an elbow on the bar, rests her head. Transslucent ears. When she stands with her back to the light pink to their deepest whorl. XXII The dialects of laughter the dialects of dogs and cats Attention wanders. He trims his beard imagines alternate bone tructures based on a new catalogue of surgical choices . The forms of formlessness, Springtime a set of lines or dots. . Smell of dog food from the kitchen, and the orange pom-pom girl on the tube across the bar. "Get real," we say. To order, either respond with that intention to this email, directly to chaxpress@msn.com, or send check (add $2 shipping/handling for domestic US mail) to Chax Press, 101 W. Sixth St., Tucson, AZ 85701-1000. Or call us at520-620-1626. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:11:06 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: | sym MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Maybe he also utilsed the same source or it looks similar. It doesnt matter. keep the texts etc coing. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 4:03 PM Subject: Re: | sym > This has nothing to do with JJ - this is an awk transformation on the text > I wrote which comes out of Emerson. > > Alan > > Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 22:24:32 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Abel Subject: New Reading Series in Portland MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit (Note: message bounced in recent outage. The reading was fantastic! You can still catch Alan and Geraldine in the Subtext series in Seattle on April 3. For more information about this new Portland series, please backchannel.) spare room presents the first reading in a new series devoted to innovative writing Alan Halsey & Geraldine Monk Wednesday March 27 at 7:30 p.m Four Wall Cinema 425 S.E. Third Avenue, Studio 400, Portland Oregon (one block west of MLK in the Central Eastside, between Stark and Oak) $5 suggested donation Alan Halsey, born in London in 1949, is a poet, book dealer, publisher, and graphic artist, whose remarkable works (“fierce and quiet . . . determined, and without illusion, the kind of poetry we need”) include A Robin Hood Book (West House), The Text of Shelley’s Death (Five Seasons), and Wittgenstein’s Devil: Selected Writing 1978-1998 (Stride). He is the publisher of West House Books in Nether Edge, Sheffield. Poet and performance artist Geraldine Monk was born in Blackburn, Lancashire, in 1952, and is celebrated as a reader and performer of “genuine word magic . . . a wonderful poet: revelatory, intense, ever surprising.” She is the author of Noctivagations (West House), The Sway of Precious Demons: Selected Poems (North and South), and a sequence of poems on the Pendle Witches, Interregnum (Creation Books) SPARE ROOM : AFFORDING SPACE FOR INNOVATION ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 02:32:27 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Susan Graham MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - Susan Graham SG by window. Overlook: SG by window. Bldg. Evening sun. How do you like the motel. It seems all right Are you glad you came with me. Yes More overlook. SG naked waist up. SG with sunglasses. It always seemed a bit of a put-on Nobody seemed interested or motivated SG dark in mirror. Winter Olympics slalom on television. Dark interior. SG naked, hands on hip. Overlay: nervous closeup of vagina. Or wanted to do anything original But what what what will happen happen Uh, eh, no I don't think Make my way through highschool I made an attempt at college My name is Susan Graham Susan Graham is SG. I dropped out I grew up in Miami SG in mirror, naked, hand on leg, standing, nervous. SG lying back on bed, naked, legs apart. Corrugated and encrusted image overlay. Who is SG. SG wears dark glasses. She sways back and forth. The camera is amateurish, nervous. The camera remains on SG. Um, it just didn't seem worthwhile I didn't like [inaudible, college?] so I guess it's time to move on SG in mirror replaced by blurred buildings. Camera nervous. SG lying back on bed overlayed by blurred buildings. SG goes silent. Blurred buildings. Where are we. Quick shot of SG on bed, sitting. Woman (SG?) in parking lot, facing warehouse building. Cars. Overlay: SG against interior wall removing shirt. Fluorescent light. Soundtrack sped up, indecipherable. Cloudy day. SG cornered or safe. Dissolve to crack in blue-white substance (clay? mineral?). SG with shirt removed overlayed with crack. How do you feel Fine SG in corner. Breasts bruised (bitten? sucked?). Huddled body. Who is shooting here. Face in shadows. SG looking out or down. Sunglasses barely visible. Black hair. Shadows everywhere. How do you feel Fine Camera backs up slightly. SG by window. Overlook: SG by window. Bldg. Evening sun. Total time 1:15. SG ends. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:54:02 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Lowther, John" Subject: Synthetic Memory MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain to the hidden addressed, i think this is a very interesting project and i've recently met the creator and am very enthusiastic about it. have a look? pass on to anyone who might be interested? The Synthetic Memory Project JS Associate: Applied Poetics Department of Research Simulation http://www.jsassociate.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:36:38 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pete Balestrieri Subject: Index as a Form? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, Does anyone know of writers using the index as a form? Has listing as a technique been examined critically anywhere? Thanks. Many thanks to all who sent useful advice regarding publishing on demand. Pete __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover http://greetings.yahoo.com/ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:40:28 -0500 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: DiPrima, Troupe, Alarcon finalists for Cal. Poet Laureate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-000022575mar29.story?coll=la-hea dlines-politics THE STATE For California Poet Laureate, Names Both Large and Small Culture: The field shrinks to three, each a strong contender. The final choice should emerge in July. By ROBIN FIELDS TIMES STAFF WRITER March 29 2002 The writing staff of TV's "Will & Grace" didn't make the cut. Fifty-one more California wordsmiths ended up on the scrapheap too, despite resumes gilded with prestigious awards, fellowships and publications. In the end, a Beat Generation standout, a bilingual chronicler of Chicano life and a multimedia Renaissance man emerged Wednesday as the finalists to become California's first formally chosen poet laureate. Now it falls to Gov. Gray Davis to nominate Diane di Prima, Francisco Alarcon or Quincy Troupe to a post that has existed since 1915 but was largely political until last year, when the Legislature approved a detailed set of qualifications and duties for it. The multitiered process to pick a poet laureate initially produced a rather muted response from California's literary community. Several of the state's best-known poets declined to be nominated, including Pulitzer Prize winners Gary Snyder and Philip Levine, former U.S. Poet Laureate Robert Hass and Bay Area legend Lawrence Ferlinghetti. A few days before the Feb. 19 deadline, the council had received just 10 submissions. But a last-minute blast of publicity brought a cascade of 45 more applications, some from unexpected quarters. The 11-member "Will & Grace" writing staff, for example, submitted itself for the job. "We are the poets of the Southern California landscape," said Jeff Greenstein, one of the show's executive producers. Their entry didn't survive the first judging round, which culled the applicant pile from 55 to 21. "Maybe if the writers of 'Six Feet Under' had been nominated," quipped panelist Jack Hicks, a professor at UC Davis. "Well that's just mean," Greenstein shot back. "No one ever takes comedy seriously." A five-member panel convened Wednesday in Sacramento to pick three finalists, looking for poets with national stature and the ability to act as ambassadors for their craft. In Troupe, Alarcon and Di Prima, they chose starkly different stylists, all with proven ability to communicate across regional, generational and ethnic lines. Troupe, 59, may be as well-known for his radio show, "The Miles Davis Project," and for the autobiography he penned with Davis, as for his poetry. His electric performance style helped the La Jolla resident, who also teaches at UC San Diego, win the heavyweight title twice at the annual Taos Poetry Circus. Alarcon, 48, who oversees the Spanish for Native Speakers program at UC Davis, is one of the nation's most prominent Chicano poets. He has written 10 volumes of poetry, including "Snake Poems," which won the 1993 American Book Award, and an acclaimed children's book. Di Prima, 67, born in Brooklyn but a longtime San Francisco fixture, captured the Beatnik era, both in poems and autobiographical writing, and by editing several poetry anthologies. She co-founded "The Floating Bear," a periodical that featured works by William S. Burroughs and Jack Kerouac, and has written numerous plays. "It is a great honor to be considered," Di Prima said. "California is my country, in a way. How we see the world is unique." The governor is expected to pick from among the finalists by July, sending one name for confirmation by the state Senate. The winner will serve no more than two two-year terms, during which he or she must give public readings and take on a project. Di Prima said she would use the position to reach out to working people, urging them to write based on their experiences. Greenstein said the "Will & Grace" staff would have brought an episode of the New York-based show to California. "Maybe that's California's loss," he said. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 21:40:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII - my brain mind!m: evolutionary-psychology@ tearing the paper, contaminating :there is no more ink, the nib scratches violently:my pen is blunted and burned out:paper ink: paper ink i'm terrorized by ineptitude, impotence, uselessness:the shell of the skull carcass of the mind:my ideas crash in a burned-out brain:mind brain:mind brain the original face faces no other:creativity begins to dry its original source:letters and words turn to scorched earth::face and letters letters and face armless and legless my fingers desert me:synaptic junctions turned marrow-brain collapse:no truth as my mind implodes with desiccated data-streaks:data-fingers: data-fingers contaminated by language i'm silent:i can't write again and can't write more:fingers crash and shred skin as no ideas form:crystalline glacial:crystalline glacial nothing else but damage in this dying truthful world:the truth of the world is this nonsense:there's no end to meaninglessness:deadly truth: deadly truth paper inktaminate brain:mind brain i watched it an letters and face FldrList P PrevMsg - PrevPage D Delete Rd-glass! hear it so well.. paper inkp Use of brain:mind brainue at ./.julu li letters and faceunk 2.p < FldrList P PrevMsg - PrevPage D Delete Relete R How would your terrorize y paper ink-powders? brain:mind brain letters and faceaminated by lang FldrList P PrevMsg - PrevPage D Delete Rarked for The symptoms of your most vio paper inktPage U U brain:mind brain? Help one letters and face line alone _ of her life. *** Connected *** Bodee[21;1H[1m[7mMore 6[m[1;24r[22;1H[21;1H________[1;20r[20;80H Do Come In and Look Around! Hey! See the Bodee-Buda Bodi Too! You see Bedei, #1, Girl, Boy, Bodi, Bodi, Bodi, Bodi, Bodi, Bodi, Bodi, Bodi, i#1, iBuda, iBodei, iBedei, iBudi, iBedee, iBodee, Bodei, iBoy, Bedee, and radio here. Obvious exits: [root] to myour darkness Last connected Sat Mar 16 07:42:37 2002 MET from panix3.panix.com #$#mcp version: 2.1 to: 2.1 [1;24r[22;1H: is humiliated every single day of her life. Nikuko is humiliated every single day of her life.[1;24r[23;1H:[21;76H12:03[23;2H faces transparency and insult every waking hour. Nikuko faces transparency and insult every waking hour.[1;24r[24;1H"There is no life for me.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H You say, "There is no life for me."[1;24r[24;1H"TH here is death for me and nothing, no life for me beyond this screen.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H You say, "There is death for me and nothing, no life for me beyond this screen."[1;24r[24;1H"The screen ta[21;76H12:04[24;15Hkes me away.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H You say, "The screen takes me away."[1;24r[24;1H: is followed by her attackers and detracters.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H Nikuko is followed by her attackers and detracters.[1;24r[24;1H"Why does this happen every hour of my waking life"? ?[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H You say, "Why does this happen every hour of my waking life?"[1;24r[24;1H:[21;76H12:05[24;2H:'s health is worn down by the constant powerlessness and humiliation.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H Nikuko's health is worn down by the constant powerlessness and humiliation.[1;24r[24;1H"What I need is are friends I can trust.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H You say, "What I need are friends I can trust."[1;24r[24;1H:is tol told there are no such friends .[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H Nikuko is told there are no such friends.[1;24r[24;1H[21;76H12:06[24;1H"I am dying here.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H You say, "I am dying here."[1;24r[24;1H[21;62H(Mail)[1;20r[20;80H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H Nikuko is dying here.[1;24r[24;1H:is dying.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H Nikuko is dying.[1;24r[24;1H::'s soul is leaving her body[21;76H12:07[24;30H.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H Nikuko's soul is leaving her body.[1;24r[24;1HBye Bye Nikuko.[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H I don't understand that.[1;24r[24;1H@quit[22;24r[24;1H [1;24r[24;1H[1;20r[20;80H *** Disconnected ***[21;10H__________________________[20;80H % Connection to l closed by foreign host. ---- No world ----[1;24r[24;1H/quit[22;24r[24;1H k2% _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:23:56 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: ...the end of human life MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit OK My take - retake - is that yes "depression" is reality: as are the way we perceive he egative aspects eg of technology misapplied and so on. The reality of course is how one/we feel. The actual state of the world may e quite at variance: but a writer is never untruthful unles he is "lying" inwhich case he/she's telling the truth because he/she intended to lie wich is what he she is saying. A kind of phenomemological viewpoint. In myself I choose to happiness most times: that the world is polluted, dying out (possibly), has a lot of injustice is, in my opinion, just too bad: we cant do much about it (a simple example: whether one supports the Republicans or not intheir wonderful attack on "The Evil Ones" is probably irrelevant: it will be a class-political-psych-existential choice: none of it either way wil lsee the world significantly changed) and also poetry doesnt do anything (or am I wong?)...yet it gives a great amount of pleasure and richnesss....in a way Ed Dorn made an effort though: that kind of writing has a "point" but after a while, one thinks, how productive is all this darkness for me: I need the dark AND the light. I think all artists, all beings probably, need those....I dont even watch the news much these days: there's not much one can do about the "bad" things except moan: we need more happy people.....But: a bit of dark, a bit of light... Cheers, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alan Sondheim" To: Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2002 4:26 PM Subject: Re: ...the end of human life > A couple of things in response to Richard - first, it's not bemoaning a > zeitgeist of every generation - I don't believe so much in cyclicity as in > exponentiality corrupted by (stochastic) chaos - things are reaching edges > and lips we couldn't have dreamed of a generation or two ago. The verge is > frightening. One only has to look at things such as rates of flora/fauna > extinctions, air pollution, dissemination of weapons, etc. > > For me this is also coupled with a propensity towards depression - and a > deeper feeling that depression is also a certain kind of truth (I'm think- > ing of Kristeva's writing in Black Sun here). I fight off the depression > as best I can, but not the truth, such as it is. (Note the qualifiers.) On > the other hand, I'm fairly outspoken politically here, which may or may > not get me into trouble. - > > It's not a question of giving up, but of developing the inertial impulse > to continue. > > Of course I'm only speaking for myself. > > - Alan > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:18:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: Something Wonderful May Happen: Screening (NYC) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Something Wonderful May Happen New York premiere Thursday, April 4, 2002, at 8 pm 501 Schermerhorn Hall, Columbia University (NYC) There will be a free screening of the Danish-made documentary, "Something Wonderful May Happen: The New York School Poets and Beyond " at Columbia University on April 4. The 57-minute-long movie features readings by, and interviews with, John Ashbery, Charles Bernstein, Kenneth Koch, David Lehman, and rare archival footage of Frank O'Hara. There are also interviews with painters Jane Freilicher, Alfred Leslie, Larry Rivers, and others. The film was directed by Lars Movin and Niels Plenge and was produced by Thomas Thurah in 2001. Following the screening Charles Bernstein and David Lehman will take questions from the audience. The screening is free and open to the public, sponsored by Columbia University's Department of English and Comparative Literature Distribution: Filmmakers Library, New York City ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:36:49 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: "The Poetry of Plays" (Barnard, NYC) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Friday - Saturday, April 5 - 6 Women Poets at Barnard 2002 Two-Day Conference The Poetry of Plays: Stein, Scalapino, Mullins, Brown, Rabinowitz Time: 9:00 a.m. - 8:00 p.m. Weekend Performances: 8:00-10:00 p.m. Place: Julius S. Held Lecture Hall, Barnard Hall Barnard College of Columbia University (NYC) The Barnard Women Poets series, a cornerstone of the New York literary=20 scene, focuses this semester on one of modern poetry=92s greatest= influences:=20 Gertrude Stein. "In the poetry of plays words are more lively words than in any other kind= =20 of poetry and if one naturally liked lively words and I naturally did one=20 likes to read plays in poetry." --Gertrude Stein Some of the nation's most provocative poets and playwrights, as well as=20 scholars Mary Ann Caws, Juliana Spahr, Linda Voris, Charles Bernstein,=20 Christina Milletti, Kimberly Lamm, Catherine Kasper, Lisa Samuels,=20 Elisabeth Frost, and Margaret Vandenburg, gather at Barnard College to=20 address "the poetry of plays" in this two-day conference. Discussions with= =20 and performances by such visionary poets/playwrights as Leslie Scalapino,=20 Anna Rabinowitz, Lee Ann Brown, Susan Wheeler, Jena Osman, Christine Hume,= =20 Anne-Marie Levine, Bevya Rosten, and Zack will help liberate words from the= =20 confine of the page, tap into their inherent dramatic power, and in doing=20 so, build some new and vital shapes. Laura Hinton will provide the keynote= =20 address on Fetishism and the Performative Spectator in the Writings of=20 Leslie Scalapino. The poetry conference, "The Poetry of Plays" is sponsored in part by The=20 Barnard Women Poets Series, which for fifteen years has hosted free, public= =20 readings at Barnard by established and emerging women poets. Through these= =20 poets=92 varied voices and styles, we have hoped to broaden and challenge= our=20 audiences=92 visions of poetry=92s range and effects. In addition to our=20 readings, the series publishes a collection from a woman poet each year. This event is co-sponsored by the Academy of American Poets, the Poetry=20 Society of America, and The Barnard Center for Research on Women. General Information Registration: Walk-in registration will take place on Friday, April 5th and= =20 Saturday, April 6th in the Barnard Hall Lobby, located at Broadway and=20 117th Street. There is no pre-registration for this event. Fee: The fee for the two-day conference is $40, ($20 per day). The fee for= =20 affiliates of Barnard College, The Academy of American Poets, and The=20 Poetry Society of America is $30 ($15 per day). All students who present=20 student ID receive free admission. Questions: If you have any questions regarding the program, hotel=20 accommodations, or any special needs you would like to discuss, please=20 contact Jill Di Donato at (212) 854-2721. Although there is no parking=20 available at the College, information on parking in the vicinity is=20 available upon request. Barnard College is wheelchair accessible. SCHEDULE OF EVENTS Friday, April 5th Registration and Morning Coffee (9 AM - 10 AM) Barnard Hall Lobby Panel 1: Stein and Theatre (10 AM - 12 Noon) Chaired by Elisabeth Frost Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall 1. Catherine Kasper, University of Texas at San Antonio, "Stein's=20 Performance Persona: 'Yes I know Mademoiselle Gertrude, the world is a=20 theatre for you.'" 2. Kimberly Lamm, Universtiy of Washington, "Making and Playing Gertrude=20 Stein." 3. Christina Milletti, Eastern Michigan University, "Stein=92s =91Lively=20 Words=92: Citing the Limits of Gender." 4. Bevya Rosten, New York University and Yale School of Drama, "The=20 Fractured Stage." Stein segments read by Kris Dean of the Royal National Theatre Studio of=20 Great Britain, and the Royal Shakespeare Company. Brown Bag Lunch and Activities (12 Noon - 1:30 PM) Location TBA Viewing of the Stein documentary film, "When This You See Remember Me." Book Sales (12 Noon - 1:30 PM) Find various books on and by Gertrude Stein, as well as titles by=20 conference participants for sale by Labyrinth Books. Roundtable Discussion with Poets/Playwrights (2 PM - 4 PM) Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall =B7 Lee Ann Brown Tony Torn =B7 Christine Hume Bevya Rosten =B7 Anna Rabinowitz David Levine =B7 Susan Wheeler Leslie Scalapino Evening Performances (7:30 PM - 10 PM) =09 Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall =B7 "Gertrude Stein=92s =91Roastbeef=92" adapted and directed by Bevya= Rosten, New York University and Yale School of Drama.* =B7 Dance performance "Rooms and Buildings" based on Stein=92s "Rooms."= Created=20 and performed by Mary Overlie, Paul Langland and Wendell Beavers.=20 Originally created for the Gertrude Stein Octoberfest. Curated and produced= =20 by Bevya Rosten.* =B7 "Darkling" written by Anna Rabinowitz, American Letters & Commentary.=20 Based on the poem "Darkling" by Anna Rabinowitz. Produced and directed by=20 David Levine; performed by Kevin Hurly. =B7 "Fata Morgana Alaska" a performance by Christine Hume, Eastern Michigan= =20 University. *Performances will take place in LeFrak Gymnasium Saturday, April 6th Registration and Morning Coffee (9 AM - 9:30 AM) Barnard Hall Lobby Panel 2: Stein and Theatre Chaired by Mary Ann Caws (10 AM - 12 Noon) Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall 1. Mary Ann Caws, Distinguished Professor at the Graduate Center of the=20 City of New York, "Seeing, With Gertrude Stein." 2. Juliana Spahr, University of Hawaii, Manoa, "Teaching Stein Through=20 Performance." 3. Margaret Vandenburg, Barnard College, "The Political Stage of Gertrude=20 Steins Dramatic Theory." 4. Linda Voris, Independent Scholar, "Saints and Singing and Difference and= =20 Landscape." Stein segments read by Kris Dean of the Royal National Theatre Studio of=20 Great Britain, and the Royal Shakespeare Company. Brown Bag Lunch (12 Noon =96 1:30 PM) Location TBA Book Sales (12 Noon =96 2 PM) Find various books on and by Gertrude Stein, as well as titles by=20 conference participants for sale by Labyrinth Books. Afternoon Performance (1:30 PM =96 2 PM) Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall "Oral History: A Monologue" a performance by Anne-Marie Levine, Independent= =20 Scholar. Keynote Address, Laura Hinton The City College of New York, "Fetishism and= =20 the Performative Spectator in the Writings of Leslie Scalapino" (2 PM - 3= PM) Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall Panel 3: On Leslie Scalapino and Poet=92s Theatre Chaired by Lisa Samuels (3= =20 PM - 5 PM) Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall 1. Charles Bernstein, SUNY-Buffalo, "Is There a Poem in This Play?:=20 Poetry's Secret Battle to Liberate Theater." 2. Elisabeth Frost, Fordham University, "How Bodies Act: Leslie Scalapino=92= s=20 Still Performance." 3. Jena Osman, Temple University, "Leslie Scalapino in the Word Circus." 4. Zack, Stanford University, "ReMapping Undefined Territory: Staging=20 Scalapino." Evening Reception (5:30 PM - 7 PM) Location TBA Book Sales (5:30 PM =96 7 PM) Find various books on and by Gertrude Stein, as well as titles by=20 conference participants for sale by Labyrinth Books. Evening Performances (7:30 PM - 10 PM) All performances will be held in Held Auditorium, 304 Barnard Hall =B7 "How Phenomena Appear to Unfold/The Hind" written by Leslie Scalapino.= =20 Designed and directed by Zack; performed by Tonyanna Borkhovi, Maggie=20 Siska, Jonathan Wise, Sergey Terentyev, Mandy Khoshnevisan, Jen=E9e= LaMarque,=20 and Zack. =B7 "The Ring of Strategic Influence" a performance by Jena Osman, Temple=20 University. =B7 "Wine and Dime in Time, an introduction to Miss Stein's Most Mysterious= =20 Business in Baltimore: A Wedding." a performance by Susan Wheeler,=20 Princeton University, The New School; performed by Lily Saint, Danielle=20 Pafunda, Robert Morris, Mark Bibbins, Anju Andre-Bergmann, and Amelia= Whitney. =B7 "The 13th Sunday in Ordinary Time" written by Lee Ann Brown, St. John=92= s=20 University and New School University. Directed by Tony Torn; performed by=20 Cynthia Nelson, Karla Schickele, Louis Levy, Julie Paton, and Lee Ann Brown. web address: http://www.barnard.edu/newnews/s2002/poet.html, though nothing= =20 at that site not in this message.