========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:13:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Memorial Service for Zenshin Philip Whalen Sept 1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A Zen Buddhist memorial service will be held for Zenshin Philip Whalen at Green Gulch Farms and Zen Center on Sunday September 1 at 2:30 pm Richard Baker Roshi officiating, there will be a chance for = appreciations=20 Green Gulch is located at 1601 Shoreline Hwy (Highway 1) just south of = Muir Beach Michael Rothenberg walterblue@bigbridge.org Big Bridge www.bigbridge.org ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:39:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fargas Laura Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Joe Amato wrote: >>i'm reminded that anything can be registered through wga (writers guild)---treatments etc... which means that the script #'s may be lower than i suggested... nevertheless, the odds are daunting, and there is a ruthless evaluative mechanism in place for weeding through this lot in order to ascertain which items might provide sufficient r-o-i (if at the expense of quality)... >> By ruthless evaluative mechanism, you can't mean the vast flock of D-girls and D-boys scattered from Venice to Silver Lake reading scripts at $15 per.... or can you? On the whole, no one 'weeds through' the lot; many, many scripts are read by no one but their [hack, cough] author. Surely you know? The moviebiz, even the indiebiz, makes the poetry world look cool and reasonable. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:44:44 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ryan Whyte Subject: holiday weekend MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII great canada, nation of creaky victorian and of the world! oh nationalism of the world! inconsequential puppetry! and cajun self-loathing in mosaic, an old computer program! undercurrent of minor literatures and brave flags! and learning lessons of sleeping beast below history of auto-erase, the sparkling hard-drive! of shabby native plants and landscape beloved by europe huddle the coast also the long border of shopping and flags, great mischance of birth! the quiet mexican alliance, in spirit rather than letter of law, 18th-century french! with german ai's, some six generations, the greatest, of inertia, erasure and ineffectual rage! trans-canada worry-line! of forgotten commonwealth man's nature the shape of a giant U! from tin-shacks to forest nudists and pot farms, dandy PMs! and forgotten territories! invasion of the north pole! dispersion of ice! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 08:27:47 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: UbuWeb Editorial Staff Subject: Re: Mmmmm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Language Removal Services - a series of audio pieces taken from interviews with famous persons. Their langauge is removed and only glottal clicks, gulps and mmm's are left. http://languageremoval.com/archive+sampler.html#Anchor-49575 http://languageremoval.com/ Victims include: from the series "Critics and Curators" Susan Sontag Robert Hughes Noam Chomsky from the series "The Boys in the Band" Buck Dharma Steve Howe Steve Stills from the series "Diva" Maria Callas Marilyn Monroe Sylvester Stallone Marlene Deitrich Elton John Princess Diana Timothy "Speed" Levitch Dion MacGregor from the series "Artists" Louise Bourgeois Jeff Koons Marcel Duchamp Martha Rosler Mike Kelley Krystoff Wodiszko David Hockney from the series "The American Left" Malcolm X Judi Barri Abbie Hoffman Gloria Steinem Mumia Abu Jamal Bob Guccione from the series "Great American Composers" Charles Mingus John Cage Diamanda Galas Philipp Glass Thelonious Monk from the series "Poets" Gertrude Stein William Burroughs Kathy Acker Jorge Luis Borges (spanish) Jorge Luis Borges (english) Maya Angelou Henry Rollins ---- UbuWeb http://www.ub.com __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:52:29 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Amato Joe Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest... Comments: To: Fargas Laura In-Reply-To: <33DB6DF9C51BD511BC4B00D0B75B2D8101708972@esfpb03.dol.gov> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII laura, what i mean is simply that the mechanism for deciding which scripts to produce (which includes, of course, not reading a script at all) is severe indeed... ruthless, as i say... of course i'm aware of the entire loop involved in making such decisions, and it's not that such decisions aren't made with "good intentions" either, but--- no need to beat this to death... my point was the there is, cool and reasonable or no, a quagmire at work in rendering "aesthetic" judgments that are de facto more about marketing... i was picking on the trades, but i've seen variants of this quagmire at work in my beloved small presses too... i don't think this applies as much to the hollywood item, at least not out of the gates (as it were)... the hollywood decision, rendered by any number of folks (incl. story readers etc.), turns in the main on what can become a successful production... and as we know by now, certainly, a shit film can gross millions globally... still, as distressing as such a situation might be, i nevertheless find it a refreshing departure from the quagmire i refer to, above... and i assure you, the irony is not lost on me, which is what i think you want me to register, right?... best, joe ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 09:17:08 -0800 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: { brad brace } Subject: Re: brakhage issue In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >-Chicago Review- 47:4/48:1 >Stan Brakhage: Correspondences >Edited by Eirik Steinhoff, et. al. >(Chicago Review, 277 pp., $8.00, Paper (Original)) Geesch! What tiresome, petty scholastic-claptrap... very annoying. I enjoyed seeing some Brakhage films in the 80's (they seemed to reinforce the ideas of visual language in my ISBN-Books), and thought this journal would kindle a return visit to the films... Big disappointment. The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project >>>> since 1994 <<<< + + + serial ftp://ftp.eskimo.com/u/b/bbrace + + + eccentric ftp://ftp.idiom.com/users/bbrace + + + continuous ftp:// < your site here > + + + hypermodern ftp://ftp.rdrop.com/pub/users/bbrace + + + imagery ftp://ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace News://alt.binaries.pictures.12hr ://a.b.p.fine-art.misc Reverse Solidus: http://bbrace.laughingsquid.net/ Mirror: http://www.eskimo.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@eskimo.com >>>> ~finger for pgp ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:29:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest... & Messerli's Assignments In-Reply-To: <160.fe906b5.2a4e4aba@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: Quoted-printable In the interests of brevity I've decided to respond to two threads at once. First, to respopnd to WilliamJamesAustin's post on the Po-biz woes, and second to respond to Douglas Messerli's exercise from Gary Sullivan, who suggested he select a conventional poem, type it into his wo= rd processor, then cut and paste the poem into Babelfish (a translating servi= ce). OK, so if this translation thing could work for a poem, maybe it could wor= k for poetics as well. So I took Bill's post and ran it through Babelfish a = few times . . . several, to be exact. It comes out, here represented three tim= es, as sage advice to the poet. And each one different. Imagine, one post can become three manifestoes! (and also a way that I'm able to bring in a thir= d thread . . . ) So here they are: 1. People, why whole excitement? It's everything brings money (silver) and to= be able to. Always it (he) (it [him], her [it]) was. This=92s a step to brain= ing her. Those who triumph are benedicts for somebody (or more than that) it's of the you of being able to money (silver), or is near, or warned for, somebo= dy who's of the you of money (silver) to be able to. They're lucky. A positiv= e evaluation publishes a big zero, until him (it) / elm that the marks (bran= ds) estimate is connected. The innuendos, events, the types. You don't obtain = the Jesus work in =91in the similarity=92 of the leader (you), and the leader = is never forced (it [he]) to be estimated (esteemed) by (his [sound], the work) glittering, however you are. And in and in it (he) it (she) (it [him], her= [it]) goes, the generation after the generation. The ugly, granted (tuned) jealousies,= we=97nevertheless it (she) (it [him], her [it])=97have a custom to congrat= ulate those who obtain happy. The good custom, the right-hand side? Our admittance suggests that the hierarchies are both naturally and inevitably= , when they're ours (our), of the ideal. Better. 2. People, why complete excitement? It is brings all money (silver) and you = can too. Always it (it) (it [it], it [as]) was. This is stepped to a brained= her. That triumph are/is capable benedicts for someone (or more than that) it of the= you of the becoming that to money (silver), is or is warn is to be, can ne= ar, or for, someone that of the you of the money (silver) to. They are happy. A= positive estimation publishes a large zero until it (it) / elm becomes connected, that the designations (signs) estimation. That of innuendos, e= vents, the types. That you received is not forced, appreciated as the Jesus work= in =91in the resemblance=92 of the leader (you), and the leader never it (he)= to become (esteemed) through (it's [sound] the work) it glitters, however you. Or th= at of you. And in and therein (it) it (it) (it [it], it [as]), the generation g= oes to the generation. Ugly, lasted (voted) jealousy=97we have, nevertheless, it (it= ) (it [it], it [it]) a custom to congratulate that, and that happily receives. The go= od custom, the right page? Our entrance proposes that the hierarchies are na= tural and unavoidable both, if they are ideal they are (or) that. Better. 3. The persons, why entire animation? It is and brings all money (silver) an= d to be able to point A. Always him (he) (she [he], he [you go]), an era. Thi= s it is stepped to a brain. That triumph, healthy, are benefits capable for someo= ne (or more than that) he of the, and the him of him, becoming that to money (silver), is or is notifies it to be (is or is able to) near, or for, some= one that of the him of the money (silver) point A. They are happy. A positive estima= te publishes a big one zero to that he (he) / elm becomes itself linked, that= the assignments (signs) estimate. That of events, of innuendos, the kinds. T= hat you did not receive is forced=97appreciated saints, the Jesus work=97in =91= in the resemblance of=92 the leader you, and the leader never he (he) becomes (esteemed) by (his [sound] the work) glitter however you think that of yourself. And in and in that (he) he (he) (he [he], he [as]), to generati= on he goes from the generation. Ugly, lasted (voted) jealousy=97has not obstina= te he (he) (he [he], he [he])=97a custom elicitor that, and that cheerfully rece= ives? The good custom, to page right? Our entrance proposes that the hierarchies ar= e natural and inevitable both, themselves healthy, an ideal ours (ours) are = that. Better. Best, JG ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 13:45:05 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: brakhage issue In-Reply-To: <20020627131532.40337.qmail@web21401.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT About the Chicago Review Stan Brakhage issue, brad brace writes: I reply: I disagree with you here. Any time one can read the letters of an interesting artist, it's worth while. Granted the Brakhage correspondences are not always up to the level of "kindling a return visit to the films," but they are helpful ways to get into his thought processes. The conversation between Brakhage and Ronald Johnson alone was worth the subscription price to me. If anyone's interested in a glimpse of some Brakhage stills, you can go here: Best, JGallaher J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 15:10:37 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest... & Messerli's Assignments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I must amend. Bablefish is clearly an important evaluative device. Of course the obvious next questions are "How much does it cost?" and "Who do I have to know to get a copy?" Thanks JG for the laughs. I enjoyed the "translations." Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 18:55:02 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest... & Messerli's Assignments MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/1/02 2:31:38 PM, Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: >to respond to Douglas Messerli's exercise from Gary > >Sullivan, who suggested he select a conventional poem, type it into his >word > >processor, then cut and paste the poem into Babelfish (a translating service). > > Douglas, Another suggestion: Pick one of your own (or someone else's) poems in English, translate it into another language. then treating that version as an orginal, translate it into English. Permutate first and third versions into a sestina. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 20:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: 24 hours, cyberspace MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 24 hours, cyberspace Make $6000 a week working from home. Want a bigger penis? Do it naturally? Get in shape for summer! Show your patriotism online! Get thicker and fuller hair without pain or drugs! Save Money. Erase wrinkles & lines! Free sample. yes yes yes I want the biggest penis online. yes yes yes the biggest penis hairless as can be. yes yes yes natural and painless and free. yes yes yes, unwrinkled, clean and pure as a child's. yes yes yes over $300,000 a year. I will be your child. I will nail you to the wall. sexes sexta sextus sexuality arpenthaler campen campenella carpena carpentier charpentier crippen espen expendable filipenko flippen halfpenny happened happens kampen kampeng kippen knippenberg koeppen koopenhoeffer maedchenpensionat mapen moneypenny opening oppenheim ouspens ouspenskay ouspenskaya papen pena penable penas penche penchenat pencroft pendarvis pendelton pendergast penderton pendharkar pendlebury pendleton pendragon pendrake penella penfield pengilly penkert penmark penne pennell penner penney pennick pennies penniman pennington pennock pennybaker pennyfeather pennyways penot penrella penrod pensri pentagious pentangeli pentaur pentayotissa pente penteel pentelow pentheus pentstemon penvern penworth penworthy penya penzance pippen popen serpente siripen sixpence spence spender spendthrift spener spengler spenser spensser steppenwolf swartzoppen tapen thigpen tropen upenskoy minnehaha laughed laughing laughton byelinskaya byen stroebye _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:06:00 +0000 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: Publishers Weekly on Black Sparrow Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Black Sparrow Flies the Coop, But Authors Land Safely "You'd be shocked at how much Charles Bukowski brings in every year," says Black Sparrow founder John Martin. Martin isn?t kidding, judging by the severance package he handed to each of his dozen employees when he closed his literary house in May. The sum? One year's pay, an amount funded by years of running a profitable literary house and the sale of Bukowski's backlist to Dan Halpern at Ecco. Martin closed his press in May. The news didn't get much play, in part because the house always reveled in its obscurity (from its bio: many of [our] names will be unfamiliar to a reader introduced to contemporary American writing by, for example, The New Yorker), in part because it wasn't so much a closure as a transfer. The works of Bukowski, Paul Bowles and John Fante will live on at Ecco; the Wyndham Lewis line goes to Gingko Press and the rest of the list to Boston's David Godine. "It really was the best solution," Martin says. "The employees wanted badly for me to keep the thing going but I had an opportunity now and I didn't know where things would be five years from now." It was not only a way to take care of the employees, Martin says, but to keep the entire backlist alive. Martin also worked out a deal with Ecco where he will edit five unpublished Bukowski manuscripts. Bukowski has had more work found posthumously than the Honeymooners - he's already had eight books released since his death in 1994.-Steven Zeitchik _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:05:43 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark Poster No. 40 (2002) Amy Pence | Red Toenails Amy Pence has published a variety of poems in different magazines including American Letters & Commentary, New American Writing, and Sonora Review. Her interview with the poet Li-Young Lee appeared in Poets & Writers (November/December 2001). Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 22:48:23 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mairead Byrne Subject: Re: Publishers Weekly on Black Sparrow Comments: To: tottels@HOTMAIL.COM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David Godine has the Charles Reznikoff stock. As you all probably know, = Holocaust is out of print. As far as I understand, David Godine also has = the rights to the Reznikoff works which are out of print. What happens = when the current stocks are sold? I don't know, and unfortunately, = although it seems to me, on the basis of student affiliation to his work, = that Reznikoff could have be massively popular, sales are minute. John = Martin, Seamus Cooney, and Black Sparrow, deserve every tribute for making = Reznikoff's works available. I sincerely hope David Godine will keep the = works in print in print, reprint those out of print, most especially = Holocaust - and popularize! Mairead Byrne >>> tottels@HOTMAIL.COM 07/01/02 21:14 PM >>> Black Sparrow Flies the Coop, But Authors Land Safely "You'd be shocked at how much Charles Bukowski brings in every year," says Black Sparrow founder John Martin. Martin isn?t kidding, judging by the severance package he handed to each of his dozen employees when he closed his literary house in May. The sum? One year's pay, an amount funded by years of running a profitable literary house and the sale of Bukowski's backlist to Dan Halpern at Ecco. Martin closed his press in May. The news didn't get much play, in part because the house always reveled in its obscurity (from its bio: many of [our] names will be unfamiliar to a reader introduced to contemporary American writing by, for example, The New Yorker), in part because it wasn't so much a closure as a transfer. The works of Bukowski, Paul Bowles and John Fante will live on at Ecco; the Wyndham Lewis line goes to Gingko Press and the rest of the list to Boston's David Godine. "It really was the best slution," Martin says. "The employees wanted badly for me to keep the thing going but I had an opportunity now and I didn't know where things would be five years from now." It was not only a way to take care of the employees, Martin says, but to keep the entire backlist alive. Martin also worked out a deal with Ecco where he will edit five unpublished Bukowski manuscripts. Bukowski has had more work found posthumously than the Honeymooners - he's already had eight books released since his death in 1994.-Steven Zeitchik _________________________________________________________________ Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 02:16:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Content and Its Discontents Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Though in general terms the polemical aspect of poetics -like here, as it is > being created and interchanges occur, itself a process- can incite poets into > new ideas and finding their own ways, as crystallized ideas to be adopted and > practiced, these ideas are not I think too helpful. First, each poem being > idiosyncratic, a new beginning, it basically must invent its own mode of > being, its own poetics. Though more organically, this is true even in > different works of the same poet. Second, once a idea is crystallized, it > tends to become a "critical thought." Look what happened to the Language > School. > > Keep on. > > Murat I find it difficult to accept this argument, although the presentation is convincing and interests me very much. Since each poem is idiosyncratic, ideas in poetics cannot be helpful. Once a poetic idea is "crystallized" it becomes a "critical thought." Look what happened to the Language School. What is it that happened to the Language School? A large and growing number of writers express interest in each others work by writing about each others work and publishing it. Critics give this process a name called the "Language School." Ron Silliman called it a "moment not a movement." I always liked this comment because I feel it captured something of the sensibility of the post 60's period that included quite a lot of effort to avoid exclusion, a lot of effort to reach out nationally and internationally. Many of these writers still read each others work, write about each others work and work on projects together over 25 years later. I think this outcome has much to do with the intellectual climate of exchange of ideas about poetry and the poetic process, not just works. It seems obvious that a lot of the expansive energies- in publishing contemporary poetry and in the efforts to internationalize connections between writers- had to do with the serious attention towards issues in poetics discussed by and among these poets.-In The American Tree- edited by Silliman- which is available now in a new reprint, had a separate section called Second Front which consisted of essays in poetics. Andrews and Bernstein's L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E contained only reviews and essays and information on contemporary poetry with little actual poetry except that contained in work in poetics, Watten published -Poetics Journal- Bob Perelman published a book of talks in the area of poetics, to name only a few of the important efforts in this area. I feel that the work in poetics done during the early years of the L-A "moment" by so many poets was one of the crucial factors in ushering in the intense interest in contemporary poetry that has occurred since both inside and outside of academia, such as the Kootenay school in Canada, Zasterle press in the Canary Islands and the many anthologies and important literary relationships that emerged out of the group of French poets involved in the translation center at Royamont near Paris. Perhaps some confusion may arise out of the word poetics itself which implies efforts towards establishing theoretical premises and generalizations as in Sociology and Anthropology, lets say. While some of this has emerged, it is my impression that the only clear demarcation line between poetics and poetry is in the question of address. Poetics is a form of writing that mimics conversation as much as it mimics theory and the process of creating poetry itself. I see poetics as a form of conversation between poets about the poetic process and the poet's lived experience which includes all the connected physical, emotional, economic, psychological, linguistic, philosophical, political issues that poets face in their daily lives. These might start out as primarily intellectual communications, but eventually did lead and could continue to lead towards discussions having to do with the career of the poet, the meaning of publication for the poet, what the critical process has to do with the work of the poet, etc. The critical emphasis is on texts; I am not questioning the cultural value of literary criticism or literary theory; I love to read both. But such avenues of literary discussion do not bear directly on many of the crucial issues that poets have to contend with in creating a ground for their work. Most of the valuable work that critics and theorists do create a ground for further work in criticism and literary theory that advance the value of poetry for culture on the whole but this rarely contains an advance in the value of poetry and the poet's career for the poets themselves. There is an aporia here that now can be addressed only by poets themselves. Creating further means of transmitting the poetic product itself through readings and publication increases the scope of the poetic territory and the scope of this aporia at the same time. This is a paradox that I feel poets can only face together. In this context it is important to remember the time when it was felt that teachers should be happy to do their work for the good it was bringing to themselves. It took the union movement to begin the process of changing this. When will poets learn to use their formidable powers of expression to help each other and thus themselves? When will poets stop thinking that because a poetics must be invented for each poem that the field of poetry must be reinvented with each poem? The immortal isolated poem remains powerful; the immortal isolated poet remains powerless. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:50:06 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Fw: Press release for Poetry Live (NZ Poetry Day) Fest 02: A Montana Poetry Day event. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Clearly very few on the List will be able to be in Auckland but this I = hope keeps some awareness of things hapenning outside the US and that = there ARE things outside the US (an also of course that Canada exists my = dear U-ESSIANS) and that Aotearoa (sometimes wrongly named New Zealand) = exists. My two fears are 1) I'll forget when or that I am to read 2) I'll = get greatly inebriated on the night/day in question as is my wont and = end up...well the rest is silence. Re current debates etc I havent been following hence I'm not adding my = pennyworth: good to see vigorous dicusssions and so on though. Richard. ----- Original Message -----=20 From: four-by-two=20 To: Richard Grove ; Liz Allen ; Diane Brown ; Andrea Olsen=20 Cc: Kim Hill ; Jane Griffin ; Jan Kemp Riemenschneider ; Iain Sharpe=20 Sent: Tuesday, July 02, 2002 11:37 AM Subject: Press release for Poetry Live (NZ Poetry Day) Fest 02: A = Montana Poetry Day event. PRESS RELEASE JULY 2002 Poetry Live 40 Turakina Street=20 Grey Lynn Auckland For more information contact: Judith McNeil, co-ordinator four-by-two@xtra.co.nz=20 09 3602510 From the 'Globe Tapes' to 'Tongue In Your Ear' volume 6 In 1985, at the Globe, a pub that was recently torn down, 42 Poets were = recorded reading their work in celebration of five years of Poetry Live. = Some of these poets were, Lauris Edmond, David Eggleton, Elizabeth = Smither, and John Pule, Poets now well established on the literary = scene. In 2002, seventeen years later, Poetry Live is still happening. = On Friday 12th July, Montana NZ Poetry Day, at 5pm at the Departure = Lounge, a caf=E9 on K. Road, Poetry Live will again launch a publication = of 42 Poets in its anthology of poets who read live, 'Tongue In Your = Ear' volume 6. Three of the original Globe Tape contributors are in this = volume too providing a little continuity to the ever changing face of = Poetry Live. The launch is the final event in a four day Poetry = Festival, the only one of its kind in New Zealand.=20 On Tuesday 9th July at 8pm which is the usual Poetry Live night at the = Departure Lounge, anyone may come and read, from the floor, their Poem = for New Zealand Poetry Day, with live music from Andrea Olsen On Wednesday 10th July also at 8pm, ten women Poets including Jan Kemp, = Diane Brown, Olivia Macassey, Siobhan Harvey and Wensley Wilcox will = read for your extreme pleasure and Katy Soljak will provide the sounds. Thursday 11th July, 8pm, is Poetry Live's official celebration of = Montana NZ Poetry Day with thirty poets including Jack Ross, Janet = Charman, Richard Taylor, Rosemary Menzies, Jianping Liu and Harry(the = dead poet)Cording reading then a dance with Audio Zephyr on into the wee = small hours.=20 sent on by Richard Taylor. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 09:47:34 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 2:16 AM -0400 7/2/02, Nick Piombino wrote: ...Many of these writers still read each others work, write >about each others work and work on projects together over 25 years later. I >think this outcome has much to do with the intellectual climate of exchange >of ideas about poetry and the poetic process, not just works. ... i like this concept. i'd also say that not just "POETS" can participate in this process...as M.C. Richards said, poets are not the only poets. i like to use the terms "poetic activities" or "poetic events" to encompass more than simply discrete poems; and the loose term "micropoetries" to identify poetic activity that is either not necessarily self-consciously "poetic" or that is not generally taken seriously as "poetry" --doggerel, newspaper verse, found poetry, lullabies, counting-out rhymes, ephemera of all kinds, etc. etc as for the below, i've tried to think/write about this disciplinary slippage in the term "poetics" in a piece called "the poetics of poetry" which years later is still in a very half-baked state ("in poeisis" wd be the complimentary term). i think there is a link between the current/recent social scientists' infatuation w/ the term and what poets mean, but it may not be immediately transparent. i think it has to do w/ attention to a (self-)making process (poeisis) and to a generalized sense that a culture, like a poem, is a structured though permeable and mutable entity with some degree of internal logic and some degree of responsiveness to extra-cultural or intercultural flows and pressures. Perhaps some >confusion may arise out of the word poetics itself which implies efforts >towards establishing theoretical premises and generalizations as in >Sociology and Anthropology, lets say. While some of this has emerged, it is >my impression that the only clear demarcation line between poetics and >poetry is in the question of address. Poetics is a form of writing that >mimics conversation as much as it mimics theory and the process of creating >poetry itself. I see poetics as a form of conversation between poets about >the poetic process and the poet's lived experience which includes all the >connected physical, emotional, economic, psychological, linguistic, >philosophical, political issues that poets face in their daily lives. These >might start out as primarily intellectual communications, but eventually did >lead and could continue to lead towards discussions having to do with the >career of the poet, the meaning of publication for the poet, what the >critical process has to do with the work of the poet, etc. The critical >emphasis is on texts; I am not questioning the cultural value of literary >criticism or literary theory; I love to read both. But such avenues of >literary discussion do not bear directly on many of the crucial issues that >poets have to contend with in creating a ground for their work. Most of the >valuable work that critics and theorists do create a ground for further work >in criticism and literary theory that advance the value of poetry for >culture on the whole but this rarely contains an advance in the value of >poetry and the poet's career for the poets themselves. There is an aporia >here that now can be addressed only by poets themselves. Creating further >means of transmitting the poetic product itself through readings and >publication increases the scope of the poetic territory and the scope of >this aporia at the same time. This is a paradox that I feel poets can only >face together. In this context it is important to remember the time when it >was felt that teachers should be happy to do their work for the good it was >bringing to themselves. It took the union movement to begin the process of >changing this. When will poets learn to use their formidable powers of >expression to help each other and thus themselves? When will poets stop >thinking that because a poetics must be invented for each poem that the >field of poetry must be reinvented with each poem? The immortal isolated >poem remains powerful; the immortal isolated poet remains powerless. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:33:01 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bukowski Sells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm not surprised at all about how much Bukowski sells. I hung out in a Philly bar last October, a bar recommended by Linh Dinh. I was in Philly for a reading the next day. Some Joe sat down next to me and we had a few drinks. The guy was a cook and said he didn't know "anything" about poetry, except that he liked Charles Bukowski and owned three of his books of poetry. No fiction, just the poems. Bukowski. Didn't own any other poetry. He remembered ee cummings from high school. Where I live in NC I socialize a lot, and I have a keen sense of hearing for when people talk poetry. Because, let me tell you, it's a pretty rare occasion as you can imagine. Just like anywhere else, even in the town where I live, with the highest density of PhDs in the US. In the last two months I've heard exactly two conversations about poetry here in Chapel Hill. (Which is an unusually high rate.) Both involved two males drinking alcohol and talking specifically about Charles Bukowski's poems. One of those four males is a friend of mine. I know from him that Bukowski's the only poet he's ever read. Or understood. He's said as much. This friend has a PhD in Physics. A pretty smart & well-educated guy. I will speculate as to Bukowski's success: 1) cult status movie "Barfly" starring Mickey Rourke; 2) strong association with alcohol as well as the "natural" (either will capture the "yo dude" quotient so big in this country, especially in the 18-25 male market); and 3) because of Bukowski's content, I'd say he and his work are sufficiently "macho" to allow young heterosexual males to rationalize reading his poetry. Anyone else's poetry and they'd be either too "sissy" (or words much worse) or "intellectual." (For those of you who don't see the subtext here: I'm not endorsing this point of view! Oh please no, not even close. I'm just telling it like I've seen it.) These three things add up so powerfully into a cult-of-the-author status Buk now has. Buk's going to sell more books at Ecco than he did at Black Sparrow. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 01:06:00 +0000 From: Ron Silliman Subject: Publishers Weekly on Black Sparrow Black Sparrow Flies the Coop, But Authors Land Safely "You'd be shocked at how much Charles Bukowski brings in every year," says Black Sparrow founder John Martin. Martin isn?t kidding, judging by the severance package he handed to each of his dozen employees when he closed his literary house in May. The sum? One year's pay, an amount funded by years of running a profitable literary house and the sale of Bukowski's backlist to Dan Halpern at Ecco. Martin closed his press in May. The news didn't get much play, in part because the house always reveled in its obscurity (from its bio: many of [our] names will be unfamiliar to a reader introduced to contemporary American writing by, for example, The New Yorker), in part because it wasn't so much a closure as a transfer. The works of Bukowski, Paul Bowles and John Fante will live on at Ecco; the Wyndham Lewis line goes to Gingko Press and the rest of the list to Boston's David Godine. "It really was the best solution," Martin says. "The employees wanted badly for me to keep the thing going but I had an opportunity now and I didn't know where things would be five years from now." It was not only a way to take care of the employees, Martin says, but to keep the entire backlist alive. Martin also worked out a deal with Ecco where he will edit five unpublished Bukowski manuscripts. Bukowski has had more work found posthumously than the Honeymooners - he's already had eight books released since his death in 1994.-Steven Zeitchik ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 14:19:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Babelfished Bukowski Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed BEER I do not know not how much bottle of beer not to know not how much wine and whiskey and beer of beer after column with Mrs. Telephone Over ring to expect noise of footboard and to Mrs. Telephone over not ring never to noise of footboard and ring from Mrs. Telephone to much at later at footboard Freshly feather/spring to flower up to much at later if my stomach put up! Outside of my mouth: "Made devil on? Do me meringues!" Females durably live it more beer than males and drink beer very small because its for representation and to laugh with the Cowboy of Horney. In the morning, which makes the noise alone in your beer life which rivers and the seas of the beer holds itself the songs of love of the radio edge as remainders of Mrs. Telephone and walls directly in top and down and the beer is everything is there. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:24:53 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Re: Babelfished Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit you guys and your babelfish... perhaps someday the list will come with the option of filtering itself thru babelfish...& hopefully by that time one will have a lot more languges to choose from. now bukowski run thru rongorongo sounds like it would have great potential. mIEKAL Gary Sullivan wrote: > BEER > > I do not know not how much bottle of beer > not to know not how much > wine and whiskey and beer of beer > after column with Mrs. Telephone > > Over ring to expect noise of footboard > and to Mrs. Telephone over > not ring never to noise > of footboard and ring from Mrs. Telephone > to much at later at footboard > > Freshly feather/spring to flower up > to much at later if my stomach put up! > > Outside of my mouth: "Made devil on? > Do me meringues!" > > Females durably live it > more beer than males > and drink beer very small because > its for representation > and to laugh with the Cowboy of Horney. > > In the morning, which makes the noise > alone in your beer life > which rivers and the seas of the beer > holds itself the songs of love of the radio > edge as remainders of Mrs. Telephone > and walls directly in top > and down and the beer is everything is there. > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 12:09:26 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Bukowski Sells In-Reply-To: <3D20593B.18064.26BCF3@localhost> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii While I'm pleased the Black Sparrow backlist is apparently being taken care of, of course I'm saddened that some of it is going from the underground of the undergound up into the Corporate Suites (and the money from the sales)-- I mean it was so *weirdly unpleasant* (the way a bad Will Smith film is) when Ecco picked up its *own* backlist and walked through the doors of HarperCollins. Yuck. But I also want to reiterate a smaller point (ultimately perhaps more important) that poetry enjoys a larger status in different cultural traditions--while Bukowski may be the poet of choice in the beer-drinking white-guy group, in the Arab and South Asian cultures and societies many, many poets are read, spontaneously recited from, quoted, etc-- I can't necessarily speak for the importance of literature in other non-European groups, but I recall the famous reprinting the chinese menu in an issue the mag "Jubilat" the dishes in which were lines of Li Bai's poetry... ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:20:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/02 2:18:22 AM, npiombino@AAAHAWK.COM writes: > find it difficult to accept this argument, although the presentation is >convincing and interests me very much. Since each poem is idiosyncratic, >ideas in poetics cannot be helpful. Once a poetic idea is "crystallized" >it >becomes a "critical thought." Look what happened to the Language School. >What is it that happened to the Language School? A large and growing number >of writers express interest in each others work by writing about each others >work and publishing it. Critics give this process a name called the >"Language School." Ron Silliman called it a "moment not a movement." Nick, The key idea in Ron's comment is "a moment." Language School ideas, at their moment, constituted a poetics, that is to say, an approach to poetry which justified, rationalized what a group of poets were doing, created a framework for the understanding of their work. In that respect, at its moment, language school poetics was a very energizing, creative movement. The relative success of the movement within a few years -and their establishment in a few poetry centers- turned the ideas embedded in it into templates (that is to say, orthodoxies) of "innovative" writing. I believe Language school poetics is a hindrance to the younger generations of poets writing today -even to those who like, appreciate or admire this poetry. My ideas relate to, speak to that struggle, though in years I am older than they are. I believe poetry today must find a completely new sets of references (less French/European, less word/literature bound), more Asian, more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a new beginning, that is, create a new template. >I >always liked this comment because I feel it captured something of the >sensibility of the post 60's period that included quite a lot of effort >to >avoid exclusion, a lot of effort to reach out nationally and >internationally. That is partly my problem, this poetry does not look wide enough, outside its circle enough; I don't mean that it doesn't attempt to propagate itself, rather that, its perceptions do not include enough of an "outside." >Poetics is a form of writing that >mimics conversation as much as it mimics theory and the process of creating >poetry itself. I disagree with this point of view, the idea that writing poetics is a kind of poetry itself (as far as I can see, a point of view manufactured by semiology). In my opinion, a poetics without a body of work backing it (or from which it emanates) is meaningless. >The immortal isolated >poem remains powerful; the immortal isolated poet remains powerless. Remains powerless, in terms of the values of the society surrounding him/her, which the work counter imagines. As before, it is a pleasure to argue with you. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 20:35:46 GMT Reply-To: ggatza@daemen.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 Well said Murat! Best, Geoffrey This message powered by EMUMAIL. -- http://www.EMUMAIL.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 15:52:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents In-Reply-To: <144.10ddec2a.2a5364fd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i like this idea as well...poetry and poeisis, that is, an ongoing, permeable, mutable process, open to multiple (global, local, internal, external, intellectual, physiological, social, elemental) impulses and inputs, need to be intertwined --need to implicate each other so deeply that it's hard to distinguish them. in this sense, i dont know that a "body of work" can be separated from a "body of discourse about...", or any other body. At 4:20 PM -0400 7/2/02, Murat Nemet-Nejat wrote: ... I believe poetry today must find a completely new sets of references (less French/European, less word/literature bound), more Asian, more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a new beginning, that is, create a new template. >I >always liked this comment because I feel it captured something of the >sensibility of the post 60's period that included quite a lot of effort >to >avoid exclusion, a lot of effort to reach out nationally and >internationally. That is partly my problem, this poetry does not look wide enough, outside its circle enough; I don't mean that it doesn't attempt to propagate itself, rather that, its perceptions do not include enough of an "outside." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:59:32 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson Subject: Bukowski sells Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I don't think Patrick's being totally fair to Bukowski or his readers. I am female, don't write like him, etc, and still -- his work is good, there is a lot going on besides the beer. Certainly a much better sense of language AND sense of the complexity of being human (including female) than one finds in other "beer guy" poets, like Jim Morrison. Elizabeth Treadwell http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 16:28:47 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Bukowski sells In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" i now blush to admit it, but bukowski's poetry meant a lot to me when i was 16 and starting out. people would assume, because i was a "woman"(girl) writing in the 1970s, that my inspirations were sexton and plath, and they'd kid me, just don't put your head in the oven haw-haw, you know what happens to women poets. bukowski and creeley were my turnons to poetry, baldwin and genet to fiction. how could i even talk to those people? At 1:59 PM -0700 7/2/02, Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson wrote: >I don't think Patrick's being totally fair to Bukowski or his readers. I am >female, don't write like him, etc, and still -- his work is good, there is a >lot going on besides the beer. Certainly a much better sense of language AND >sense of the complexity of being human (including female) than one finds in >other "beer guy" poets, like Jim Morrison. > > > >Elizabeth Treadwell > >http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx -- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 13:14:36 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Douglas Messerli Subject: Assignment 4 from EXERCISES FOR MIND AND TONGUE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Allen Fischer, from the United Kingdom, wrote :"Eager not to give you = too rich a subject, I recommend 'lawn growth.'" =20 Strangely enough, the first poem I wrote that made me feel I was a poet, = the title poem of my first book, Dinner on the Lawn, was involved with the idea of lawn growth--and = that of hedges, trees, etc. It was a cut-up, if I remember correctly, from National Geographic = interwoven with my imagination of a kind of Jamesian country house as in Portrait of a Lady. But that = did include much else, so I thought I would try focusing on just the lawn and its growth. =20 =20 STAY =20 The blackness seams patches to weeds pulled up into disappearance, the mirror of what mowed down the shade. Here, on the rock, the sods cling to malt while in the melting trees take terrible shape. But still. And still anyone can see that black is nearly green cover for the soiled and unseen animals. It stretches over an entire aching to replace what it abuts-- the haphazard field at the end of sight. But this night, since the gardeners have come and stolen away by day, it is at peace, perfect, a neat napkin pulled to chin -- or gin as they would say from that more concrete position in which they wait, and wait until the next day imperceptibly darkens by just a few more centimeters and the next a few more and so on, each night measured in that way, the weight of nature appearing to impinge by shooting up almost as an addict might, rising, surging in the tide of tiny increments only to be cut away, shorn to a matted massage of potentialness to where we standing sip and sigh with our eyes. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:28:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Bukowski & Mr. Deeds In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Last night I had the chance to go to a screening of "Mr. Deeds Goes to Town," not the new Adam Sandler remake, but the 1936 Capra original. Quite fascinating on several fronts, but Patrick's post on the "macho factor" in Bukowski's poetry made me think of all the very strange ways Gary Cooper is "coded" in this picture. The basic plot of the film is that a small-town guy (Cooper) inherits a fortune and all sorts of complications ensue. The Cooper character is a bow-tie wearing "poet"-actually, a writer of greeting card verse. At times, Cooper comes across as positively "light in the loafers," to invoke the vernacular. And when his new fortune draws him irresistibly to New York city he is branded immediately as a naif and object of fun--indeed, he is dubbed The Cinderella Man (for his overnight transformation), with the film making no bones about the insult to his manhood implied by the term. So anyway, what's interesting is that he is able to make up for all this feminizing by poking people in the jaw at regular intervals throughout the film. He socks a couple of pretentious New York (i.e. high art) poets in the jaw at a restaurant, pops off on a conniving lawyer, and so on. The regular recourse to a right cross is all the more remarkable given that the film insists throughout, often quite drippily, on the importance of "nice," gentle treatment of one's fellow human beings (as opposed to the cynical, treacherous behavior of most of the big-city denizens populating the film). But the film gives us all sorts of other interesting coding as well. Eventually Cooper winds up at a hearing to determine his sanity, where a German-accented psychiatrist wheels out a big chart divided into three horizontal bands or zones labeled subnormal, normal, and abnormal (this got a big laugh with last night's Cambridge audience). Sine waves running through these bands indicate the fluctuations of mood for both "normal people" and "manic depressives." The normal fluctuations stay within the normal zone, of course, but the manic depressive sine wave shows big swings of mood from the depressed (subnormal) up to the ecstatic ("abnormal" on the chart). The accusations against Cooper include: playing the tuba at odd times, feeding donuts to a horse, and wanting to give away all his millions to poor farmers who have lost their farms during the Depression. Writing poetry is not included among the accusations, but one feels this is an oversight. s ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 20:41:27 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Then if a body meet a body comin' thru the rye meant wry? sm. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 20:48:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/02 4:26:32 PM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: << I believe Language school poetics is a hindrance to the younger generations of poets writing today -even to those who like, appreciate or admire this poetry. My ideas relate to, speak to that struggle, though in years I am older than they are. I believe poetry today must find a completely new sets of references (less French/European, less word/literature bound), more Asian, more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a new beginning, that is, create a new template. >> Pardonez-moi for jumping in, but I think Murat may be right re: the success of langpo as a hindrance to younger poets. This is nothing new, of course. Every success exercises a similar hegemony. The list is as long as literary history. Consider in the last century Eliot, Ginsberg, Ashbery as a few such templates. But I think the problem, inevitable as it is, goes a bit further. Most, if not all, major poetic movements are rooted in Philosophy. The langpoets find their philosophical underpinnings in structuralism/poststructuralism. Others, past and present, have written upon various transcendentalisms, idealisms, Hegelianisms, Heideggerianisms. The issue now is whether anyone, in good faith, can return to any form of absolutism now that continental philosophy since the 1970s has reduced such "beliefs" to ashes (or cinders, for those of you who know the reference). I use the word "belief" intentionally since a return at this point would seem more like a religious gesture based on faith than a philosophical one rooted in analytical thinking. There have been attempts in the recent past to link Eastern philosophies to Quantum theory and Deconstruction, with varying rates of success. But said linkage fails to appropriate Asian ideas as a way out. It merely restores the current hegemony as the West swallows the East, or vice versa -- doesn't really matter who does the belching if both are one. So where to? Another hopeless effort to separate "art" from outside influences such as philosophy, psychology, etc.? Even simple, eco-minded nature poems are webbed within transcendentalism. I know how I'm working this out in my own stuff. What are the rest of you doing, those of you who feel the need to move on? Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:03:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jessica beard Subject: poetics as discovery MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii it seems to me that there is a lot of goings on on this list about the purpose or definition of poetics. it reminds me of a car ride talk i had with a philosopher friend about a year ago. i am a writer and came to the idea of poetics from this angle, i thought it could be a statement of process and overall artistic intent by the writer. a self imposed picking apart of each step, an unwinding of the threads that make the text and connect it to the fingers and mind that let it out. i took a class that used hoover's postmodern poetry, and it included many poet's poetics statements and each one seemed to point towards intent and process as personal. each one seemed to be about the enjoyment of this wordplay, and the discoveries that happen in the process. which brings me to the other form of poetics, like cixous writing about clarice lispector or anybody writing on cixous. cixous revels in the possibilities that the text offers her, the hidden ideas that she may stumble upon when writing her own piece of text on the text. nothing definitive goes on here. things are suggested and gestured towards. cixous discovers her own writing through lispector, she dicscovers lispector and she finds ways, creates ways to pull the words into her own philosophy, finds pieces of lispector in there and weaves words into her own work of art, one that is not traditional criticism, one that is poetics. i have a definition that i would hope poetics could stand up to. i would hope that it could help break the odd border between writing that is so artificial it hardly stands.im not sure exactly how it would work but i would hope that criticism, fiction, poetry and philosophy could engage as the similar texts they are, and be recognised as similar text, as writing as discovery, as similar languages of change. not to keep going on about cixous, but doesn't she do this perfectly? isnt her "fiction" philosophy poetics poetry and even politics all at the same time (you can find her shelved all over the place in bookstores)? ...just some thoughts, ive been on this list for awhile and never posted, heres my unsolicited two cents. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:15:28 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Bukowski sells MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I agree: probably with a lot of men this tough-guy thing or image hides a lot of feelings and as you say with C Buk. "there's a lot more going on". He reminds me in a very round about way of Coover and also strangely of James Tate... Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Elizabeth Treadwell Jackson" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:59 AM Subject: Bukowski sells > I don't think Patrick's being totally fair to Bukowski or his readers. I am > female, don't write like him, etc, and still -- his work is good, there is a > lot going on besides the beer. Certainly a much better sense of language AND > sense of the complexity of being human (including female) than one finds in > other "beer guy" poets, like Jim Morrison. > > > > Elizabeth Treadwell > > http://www.durationpress.com/authors/treadwell/home.html > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:03:34 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: poetics as discovery In-Reply-To: <20020703010321.28590.qmail@web40311.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Jessica--Thanks for posting! Lost of interesting stuff here. I too have found it interesting the way the recent "poetics" thread (hey, the poetics list is actually talking about poetics!) has often insisted on a clear split between "criticism" and "poetry" when a lot of recent work (last 30 years or so) so obviously wants to question this divide. s On Tue, 2 Jul 2002, jessica beard wrote: > it seems to me that there is a lot of goings on on > this list about the purpose or definition of poetics. > it reminds me of a car ride talk i had with a > philosopher friend about a year ago. i am a writer > and came to the idea of poetics from this angle, i > thought it could be a statement of process and overall > artistic intent by the writer. a self imposed picking > apart of each step, an unwinding of the threads that > make the text and connect it to the fingers and mind > that let it out. i took a class that used hoover's > postmodern poetry, and it included many poet's poetics > statements and each one seemed to point towards intent > and process as personal. each one seemed to be about > the enjoyment of this wordplay, and the discoveries > that happen in the process. > which brings me to the other form of poetics, like > cixous writing about clarice lispector or anybody > writing on cixous. cixous revels in the possibilities > that the text offers her, the hidden ideas that she > may stumble upon when writing her own piece of text on > the text. nothing definitive goes on here. things are > suggested and gestured towards. cixous discovers her > own writing through lispector, she dicscovers > lispector and she finds ways, creates ways to pull the > words into her own philosophy, finds pieces of > lispector in there and weaves words into her own work > of art, one that is not traditional criticism, one > that is poetics. > i have a definition that i would hope poetics could > stand up to. i would hope that it could help break the > odd border between writing that is so artificial it > hardly stands.im not sure exactly how it would work > but i would hope that criticism, fiction, poetry and > philosophy could engage as the similar texts they are, > and be recognised as similar text, as writing as > discovery, as similar languages of change. not to keep > going on about cixous, but doesn't she do this > perfectly? isnt her "fiction" philosophy poetics > poetry and even politics all at the same time (you > can find her shelved all over the place in > bookstores)? > ...just some thoughts, ive been on this list for > awhile and never posted, heres my unsolicited two > cents. > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free > http://sbc.yahoo.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 23:57:07 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: L' MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII L' 32 awk '{print NF, $0 }' thistext > thattext 33 sort thattext > thistext; pico thistext 1 tiny 1 */face/* 1 */face/* 1 */face/* 1 */face/* 1 */face/* 1 */face/* 1 Sex/torsion: 1 This 1 _ 1 _ 1 _ 1 _ 1 _ 1 year. 2 Hidden Treasure 2 again and 2 beyond giver, 3 Sutra of Truth 3 laughed laughing laughton 4 to launch one ship. 4 a spell to launch 4 Bleached shots */azure face/breast/* 4 Do you like it. 4 sexes sexta sextus sexuality 5 Shots from above */azure typing/* 5 grappling twisted bodies etc. etc. 5 grappling twisted bodies etc. etc. 5 grappling twisted bodies etc. etc. 5 grappling twisted bodies etc. etc. 5 grappling twisted bodies etc. etc. 5 ma mu */black panties, buttocks/* 5 ma mu */black panties, buttocks/* 5 ma mu */black panties, buttocks/* 5 ma mu */black panties, buttocks/* 5 ma mu */black panties, buttocks/* 5 ma mu */black panties, buttocks/* 6 bodhisattvas or saints.of solstice. is pro 6 of the third, the world nothing 6 ma mu */nipple and bruise closeup/* 6 ma mu */nipple and bruise closeup/* 6 ma mu */nipple and bruise closeup/* 6 ma mu */nipple and bruise closeup/* 6 ma mu */nipple and bruise closeup/* 6 ma mu */nipple and bruise closeup/* 6 we're against a wall, we're crashed 6 we're against a wall, we're crashed 6 we're against a wall, we're crashed 6 we're against a wall, we're crashed 6 we're against a wall, we're crashed 7 The truth waits in the harbor. wo 7 ii of the toppling of the foundation 7 read and comprehend; the world is nothing. 7 Nikuko>> Come here and you take me. 7 she's looking up at me, we're crashed 7 she's looking up at me, we're crashed 7 she's looking up at me, we're crashed 7 she's looking up at me, we're crashed 7 she's looking up at me, we're crashed 7 tango bent face back; i'm behind her 7 tango bent face back; i'm behind her 7 tango bent face back; i'm behind her 7 tango bent face back; i'm behind her 7 tango bent face back; i'm behind her 7 we're struggling here to make a film 7 we're struggling here to make a film 7 we're struggling here to make a film 7 we're struggling here to make a film 7 we're struggling here to make a film _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 21:35:01 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Murphy Subject: poetics and Bukowski MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The coexistence in discussion of these two unlikely strands interests me. A kind of spectrum of needs ranging from a fairly basic, projected interpersonal connection in the dim light of Bukowski texts to what one might perceive as a complex level of (possible) communion about intentionality and so forth (poetics). Either end of the spectrum may pose challenges for participants. Bukowski at his most raw is tedious, and poetics venturing into the ether at the possible expense of poetry may be unendurable in very different ways. At their best, either pole may provide richness. The tenderness of Bukowski at those rare moments ("Linda, you brought it to me, and when you take it away, do it slowly . . ." (loosely paraphrased from memory) - from the volume Mockingbird Wish Me Luck, I believe). Poetics at its most vital is replete with riches that seem to last abundantly for those who engage in it. And for lurkers, one supposes. It's interesting to talk of what works and what doesn't work in poetics, and some fixed positions that people may hold relative to the place of created works, process-based conversation and that combination of the two (as in Artifice of Absorption by Charles B). I find it easy to get blissfully lost in a beautiful combo text. It matters not that this is not a universal feeling. I do enjoy hearing what works for various people on the list. sheila murphy __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 02:08:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/2/02 8:48:57 PM, Austinwja@AOL.COM writes: >The >issue now is whether anyone, in good faith, can return to any form of >absolutism now that continental philosophy since the 1970s has reduced >such >"beliefs" to ashes (or cinders, for those of you who know the reference). > I >use the word "belief" intentionally since a return at this point would >seem >more like a religious gesture based on faith than a philosophical one rooted >in analytical thinking. Bill, Has LS poetics envisaged anything which goes beyond the prescriptions of English Empiricism, Wittgenstein being the reductive limit of this empiricism? You suggest that turning to a new direction would be more like a "religious gesture" than "analytic thinking." Exactly, since going around, discarding analytic philosophy is, to me, one main impetus of the discussions of the last few weeks. For example, sufism, which is a political mysticism (mysticism, an absolute no-no for an empiricist or a deconstructionist or a semiologist), embodies a way of thinking, of imagining (embodies a poetics) which goes out of the framework we are facing. One shouldn't forget that a lot of radical thinking in the world today is perceived in religious terms. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 06:59:12 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I know how I'm working >this out in my own stuff. What are the rest of you doing, those of you who >feel the need to move on? Best, Bill > >WilliamJamesAustin.com >KojaPress.com >Amazon.com >BarnesandNoble.com i'm eating chips and writing poems. am i rooted in transcendentalism. how about incidentalism? in terms of moving beyond, getting past, every minute we're past language poetry with or without the equal signs. but why set it up in terms of lineage? why the dualism of before and after? the trace of tradition? it hapened, is happening and will happen. then as if there is a central frog in the pond that has caused these con(ec)centric circles outwards, life as if theory only showed people how they can't write anymore. not even web-like, there is no materiality to this interconnectedness (weak). in the past aggressive breakages signalled a move forward. but there are so many problems with this. progressivity, fear of 'fathers', passionate political opposition, identity as alter-, etc and etc, et al. no movement has ever been forward. _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 07:18:00 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: holiday weekend Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed a canadian poem of my own: rf : an yrte wom <.wrahyatne@turoonto.>ac ployeur: - tB eyh w etipoecs@alsbustrv.bedu.alo> behojsu: dweelik dnay toen: DMa, J 102 u20 10l:04-44 000: belated tho it may be... >From: Ryan Whyte >Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group >To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU >Subject: holiday weekend >Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 10:44:44 -0400 > >great canada, nation of creaky victorian >and of the world! oh nationalism of the world! > >inconsequential puppetry! and cajun self-loathing >in mosaic, an old computer program! > >undercurrent of minor literatures and brave flags! >and learning lessons of sleeping beast below > >history of auto-erase, the sparkling hard-drive! >of shabby native plants and landscape beloved by europe > >huddle the coast also the long border >of shopping and flags, great mischance of birth! > >the quiet mexican alliance, in spirit rather >than letter of law, 18th-century french! > >with german ai's, some six generations, the greatest, >of inertia, erasure and ineffectual rage! > >trans-canada worry-line! of forgotten commonwealth >man's nature the shape of a giant U! from tin-shacks > >to forest nudists and pot farms, dandy PMs! >and forgotten territories! invasion of the north pole! > >dispersion of ice! _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:47:18 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: POEM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 The Question of Entrance to understand what things meant would be tragic. A failure of = nervousness. I cant gesticulate enough. Ape me you. Thus I. = Disastrous. A bolt. About this time the green and blue music entered on = harrying tip toe to a grandstand cacophony as if a nation had been = slaughtered. Reality kept on: we couldnt fix that, but there were = pressing intrusions. I want you: you want. He wants, she wants, they = want. Everyone wants. There is a heaviness blacks the land. What is it with you? It's...Christ it's getting hot. = Plant something. Are they caming? Will they be caming? What's that? = Who's this? And so on as a thousand vermilion vermin settled in. Ours of = course to laud and chuckle over as the chairs rock unattended and vacant = of personas. The wind, apropos of nowt, whips the air and all become = involved in the drama with the chilling fingers and maybe the Laocoon. = The death that young men yearn for. They keep wandering. A hundred = thousand died last week and things are everywhere. And they flash or = wink in a violent opposition of clangs, bangs, and clashes of = shatter-light. All this and more: and still more, setting store and we = are thus bereft to consider the clammy cells and the days of April: the = days of yore when petrol pingle pangled out of Big Tree Cans until you = fucked with various heads, fucker.=20 But all this is much more than it is. In fact it is much more than more = than what it is. Much much more you whore. All this being more: I being = you and you seeking me and us as we seek you and indeed ever shall into = endless edges. The great sea turns white. And why shouldnt it? Nothing = is. And yet the Thing playing about his frontage had sleight. Some sort = of lusty legerdemain. Les Main Sales. They are. It all started with: = "You dirty boy." The house leaked like a palindrome; but never = completely as if a savage and incomprehensible music (nationality or = race unknown or irrelevant) was and did deep-guide her quick hand, and = the subject of gluttony shifted, till one, flicking back a strand of = hair, scraped back her chair and vanished by virtue of defaulted = surprise. We linguists. I, by the way, am that to be and verify. =20 Richard Taylor ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 10:00:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Palm Subject: poetics as discovery Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Yes, but can you dance to it? (and I'm not being entirely flippant here . . .) kp Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 18:03:21 -0700 From: jessica beard Subject: poetics as discovery it seems to me that there is a lot of goings on on this list about the purpose or definition of poetics. it reminds me of a car ride talk i had with a philosopher friend about a year ago. i am a writer and came to the idea of poetics from this angle, i thought it could be a statement of process and overall artistic intent by the writer. a self imposed picking apart of each step, an unwinding of the threads that make the text and connect it to the fingers and mind that let it out. i took a class that used hoover's postmodern poetry, and it included many poet's poetics statements and each one seemed to point towards intent and process as personal. each one seemed to be about the enjoyment of this wordplay, and the discoveries that happen in the process. which brings me to the other form of poetics, like cixous writing about clarice lispector or anybody writing on cixous. cixous revels in the possibilities that the text offers her, the hidden ideas that she may stumble upon when writing her own piece of text on the text. nothing definitive goes on here. things are suggested and gestured towards. cixous discovers her own writing through lispector, she dicscovers lispector and she finds ways, creates ways to pull the words into her own philosophy, finds pieces of lispector in there and weaves words into her own work of art, one that is not traditional criticism, one that is poetics. i have a definition that i would hope poetics could stand up to. i would hope that it could help break the odd border between writing that is so artificial it hardly stands.im not sure exactly how it would work but i would hope that criticism, fiction, poetry and philosophy could engage as the similar texts they are, and be recognised as similar text, as writing as discovery, as similar languages of change. not to keep going on about cixous, but doesn't she do this perfectly? isnt her "fiction" philosophy poetics poetry and even politics all at the same time (you can find her shelved all over the place in bookstores)? ...just some thoughts, ive been on this list for awhile and never posted, heres my unsolicited two cents. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:57:46 -0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don't know whether or not I'm clanging or chiming with Nick and=20 Murat. Nick sees poetics as leading to the poet's empowering, and Murat=20 feels, especially with "Language Poetry," the burden of prior=20 poetics. Here are a couple of further excerpts from my longer "Aspects of= =20 Poetics" which muse around the issues. The first part of the piece is=20 posted at www.culturalsociety.org . (the second half is yet to be posted): (By "poetics," I'm thinking of one of the basic ways we take this word when= =20 applied to poetry, a proposal, a manifesto, a theory....) Proust sets the tone for these meditations with his comment that "a work in= =20 which there are theories is like an object which still has its price tag on= =20 it." To the extent that a poetics is a theory and that the poetry it=20 generates shows forth theory or method through key tropes such as=20 foregrounding the device or making strange or via programmatic or=20 formalistic procedures, including so-called traditionalist ones =97 choose= =20 your implement =97 then price tags are pretty ubiquitous. They tell poetry= =20 consumers, before the fact, what it is they are about to read and poetry=20 writers what it is they are about to write. Admittedly, poetics is a beclouded field. Responding to an earlier version= =20 of this paper, the poet Devin Johnston asked about the "slippage of the=20 term 'poetics' between a statement or reflection on the generating=20 principles of one's poetry" and "something like ideology." Johnston says=20 "plenty of poets do not write a poetics but only write poems." About the=20 slippage, I'd say my emphasis here is more on poetics as ideology. As to=20 Johnston's referring to poets who "only write poems," my response is that=20 underlying his phrase is the difficulty, even pain, and uncertainty of=20 poetic composition. I don't believe we can say with any surety that poets=20 "only write poems," for such a notion of innocent composition flies in the= =20 face of what we do know: that each of us are products of traditions, of=20 wars with traditions, impulses and hopes, and that we are informed,=20 inhabited, guided, even unconsciously, by such traditions and psychologies. But I am not arguing determinism here. I'm only saying that if we look back= =20 we will see that there is a place or places we come from, and that by this= =20 looking back, seeing the traditions that inform us rather than being=20 unconsciously driven by them, we will have achieved the first act of poetic= =20 freedom. ..... Another unintended aspect of poetics is that it sets up a hidden opposition= =20 between dogma and craft. As a rule-driven guide to composition, poetics may= =20 in fact dilute the poetic impulse even as it strives to maintain poetry's=20 timeliness (sometimes fashionable timeliness). Alice Notley, for example,=20 complains: "I want to stand face to face with whatever reality there is and= =20 I feel that all the friendly theoreticians in my neighborhood are keeping=20 me from doing this by proclaiming that there is no such reality as is made= =20 evident in the works of so and so philosopher or poet." Notley, with some=20 humor, is echoing Derrida's call for "the freedom to schematize without=20 concept." To the extent that a poetics is primarily dictatorial by invoking= =20 rules and strictures on what constitutes a poem, it modifies or even=20 attenuates the powers of the imagination, at least in its Coleridgian=20 formulation of "intuitive knowledge" or " immediate presence." Poetics in=20 this fashion is occult: the poet buys the Lotto ticket of occulted dogma=20 with its promise of poetic riches and potential for recognition by the=20 clerisy (academe). To embrace a poetics is to embrace a future-looking dynamic. I am referring= =20 here to the a priori nature of most poetics. As with the mystical blank=20 page of the writing workshop, a theory about how to construct a poem=20 beckons to the poet like an unappeased hunger demanding satisfaction,=20 demanding that its conception of poetic activity be filled or demonstrated= =20 with words and images. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 00:39:06 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest...OUR Kempf MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've just started to follow this thread and the point below by Ravi Shankar makes sense:of course the author is not dead: but we may be (or perhaps already are) seeing a cooperative collaborative activity - as long as thats is not seen as the only method or process of production: if the analogy eg to capitalist or any other productive and economic system is made, we have had/do have an dispoportionate and an overt emphasis on the individual: but in reality even capatalistic production requires an enormous amount of cooperative interaction: as do in fact all human edeavours: albeit that within certain conditions there is room for the individual - and that as Ravi says "means more life for the text" but of course the other side re what was said of Lowell and Beckett and the death wish, nihilism etc is also quite interesting/valid: I'm seeing this "argument"in the way that Auden began to write as in "The Orators" which I am currently studying: of course that wasnt his first work but here the author is fragmented (or the psyche of his "alter ego" (and its problematic ow much Auden is the"pure" artist here and or how much he's (legitimately of course) playing a subtle game, or how much is himself and hence how much of his mythical-real-self seen-"blurred image"-self the poem is about and how much that Self is an image of England and the World then given the rise of Nazism and other issues in the 1930s: the poem is quite extraordinary, and ranges from being an "objective" study of society and the socious, to questions of morality,death, identity, Freudian and other questions: but it holds a dark beauty. Auden also "quotes" and incorporates into the text Gertrude Stein or Steinic writing at one point. Stein was a writer he had admired after she lectured in England in the mid or late twenties. So it is a complex work: a proto-multi-vocal thing if one likes or pleases. That said it is perhaps only analogous of the state of the mind of people and of "hero worship" but it becomes a performance of some subtlety...and stylistically and in terms of its very layout and form etc it even anticipates Olson or some of the "moves" of the language poets: the author is Auden: but the "story" is the world, the human mind, the darkness and the light...(I wish I had begun lit earlier in life there is so much I havent covered: I have only ever known collections of Auden, and wish that I had read more of Swinburne and even Whitman) and so was Whitman: strange (forgetting for now Auden and Whitman's sexual orientation) that he was so vituperated: he is suggesting that the "Song of Himself" is the song of all people (of course that he was a homosexual must have been known to the critics, hence their anger: but it was also the strangeness or, to them, the unfamiliarity of his technique to them: but how would they evaluate him? (critics be warned! We need to be very considerate (for we are all both creators and critics): I mean that the consider in considerate AND our respect for anyone working in literature be maintained (hence my compliment recentlly was wrongly spurned, (result of critical critonoia?) oh well) - Swinburne later repudiated his initial interest and affirmation to Whitman: things were too dangerous then as he also distanced himself from Oscar Wilde) - but the idea of the author "opting " out is clearly disturbing to many people, possibly it began with _ such as_ Whitman (possibly this reaction to "newness" recurs forever (as in the riot at the first performance of The Rite of Spring): but, as to how deceased I am or you are my dear reader: I/we might say "take my words" but I/we wouldnt ever concur to "take all my/our work and call it yours" but it is a fact that we can all get into the "genius trap", the Great I Conundra, the Joyce of FW trap (again maybe the death wish thing here?) ...we dont have to die (as authors: mind you it IS true that we all die) ....but recognise that - individuals yeah we are - we are very much in a widened world: film certainly shows the way: the working class are both freed and corrupted by film videos popular culture and so on: the beautiful faes....but/and the death of the author concept has overtones, troubling, insidious murmers indeed, that it is possible that those who control the strings might be challenged, even usurped, destroyed maybe. It is also interesting the way that we - in conjunction with Bathes's concept - think of the death of Berryman and say Celan, and Lowell's near nihilism and Beckett's comic, almost nihilistic creations eg of Endgame or Just I (and maybe indirectly the Derek and Clive tapes of Dudley Moore and Peter Cook) and link it to "the death of the author". Barthes challenges intellectuals (and in France I suppose he challenged the "authorities" .. if any authorities or paters took any notice ...and encouraged those stuck in hieratic positivities to maybe "open up".... fun and games. Ludo ludere lusi lusum = to play. How then to evaluate? It becomes circular like the "chase of signifiers" but I think we all know that certain fundamentals remain: the fragmentaion of a text (an anonymous multi vocal and multi-mediac text ) is still a challenging possible looming there or heere, or somehwere...its coming, whatever it is: such a work with the possiblity that anyone's contribution of whatever formn and in whatever order is equally valid can I think be a liberating possiblity to people: the text can become "open" and "user friendly" but also it can be as challenging and or as difficult as anyone wants: there are no rules (as in life) but yet - life does impose rules if you want to survive and be happy (or at least operative): the idea of "quality" is challenged in favour of participation: the idea of fixed orders and levels of people is challenged against the ruling class's deep need (still -today) to divide and alienate the people: it is possibly a bomb going off signalling the possibility that everyone _does _ have something to contribute: potentially a world closer to a cooerative,egalitarian...yes: an utopian society; but of course this is only one aspect of the dialectic...it is implied (surely?) that the individual still will wish, and love, to make her/his "stamp": an ongoing struggle OUR kempf, the kempf of us all not that of evil and or greedy men. I say men. And it is true that we ae near to a "post-ownership ontology that has not fully pervaded our sensibilities" ..I agree with that. But are _post_ ownership: we will never be totlaly: onership in the BIG sense IS being cahllenged (paradoxically when writers want to collect more royalties etc)..even if we willlnever be post ownership as such. Ownership is not undesirable in itself. But poetry as discussion,as sharednes, as openning up, as possiblity: this is both "old news " ...yet: it is new news... Of course there is no right and wrong conclusion to these things: it is always or should always be a discussion: maybe one that is unending. Richard Taylor ----- Original Message ----- From: "Drunken Boat" > My sense is that the epitaph for authors is manifest > in a post-ownership ontology which has not yet fully > pervaded our sensibilities. Theoretically, we're no > longer discrete monads manipulating signs in a > solipsistic laboratory and more on the order of > collaborative performers who, intentionally or not, > are wired into a matrix of allusiveness. The > information age is about access and not possession, > interrelation and not understanding, and in such a > climate the cult of genius has been shown to be a > misappropriation of what it means to be writerly or > readerly. > > So in a way, the film industry has a leg up on us, > because they at least acknowledge the many minds that > need come together to produce a work. Though actors or > directors may receive all the credit, it is a given > that myriad others are vital for the exsitence of a > film; similarly, a poet is nothing without the > critical atmosphere (s)he is rec'd in and the > "canonicity" of a work is directly proportional to the > dialogue it engenders; for some reason, as writers, we > are less likely to acknowledge this fact. > > When more meanings proliferate, when poems, like > poets, are seen in process and not outside of time, > when criticism is not seen as parasitic or > supplementary but rather as part of the poems under > discussion, then the death of the author equals more > life for the text. > > -Ravi Shankar > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 09:01:02 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mister Kazim Ali Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest...OUR Kempf In-Reply-To: <000901c2228e$9f7c0240$255636d2@01397384> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii as i read the successive posts on these discussions, plus the content discussion, plus Bukowski, etc etc I keep coming back and back to Rae Armantrout's poems. they so powerfully exemplify a poetic practice that addresses, solves, resolves, dissolves, devolves, etc a lot of these issues we are talking about. i could go on and on about it in quite an intelligent way, but it seems actually counterproductive. remember also it was the boston review essay on her work that started the original firestorm about poetry/criticism a couple of months ago. maybe i'll write more on this later-- --- "richard.tylr" wrote: > of course the author is not dead: but we > may be (or perhaps > already are) > cooperative interaction: as do in fact all human > edeavours: albeit that > within certain conditions there is room for the > individual - and that as > Ravi says "means more life for the text" > Lowell and Beckett and the death wish, nihilism etc > is also quite > interesting/valid: I'm seeing this "argument"in the > way that Auden began to > wasnt his first work but here the author is > fragmented (or the psyche of his > "alter ego" (and its problematic ow much Auden is > the"pure" artist here and > or how much he's (legitimately of course) playing a > subtle game, or how much > is himself and hence how much of his > mythical-real-self seen-"blurred > image"-self the poem is about and how much that Self > is an image of England > and the World then given the rise of Nazism and > other issues in the 1930s: > the poem is quite extraordinary, and ranges from > being an "objective" study > of society and the socious, to questions of > morality,death, identity, > Freudian and other > questions: but it holds a dark beauty. Auden also > "quotes" and incorporates > into the text Gertrude Stein or Steinic writing at > one point. Stein was a > (as in the riot > at the first > performance of The Rite of Spring): but, as to how > deceased I am or you are > my dear reader: I/we might say "take my words" but > I/we wouldnt ever concur > to "take all my/our work and call it yours" but it > is a fact that we can all > get into the "genius trap", the Great I Conundra, > the Joyce of FW trap > yeah we are - we are very much in a widened world: > How then to evaluate? It becomes circular like the > "chase of signifiers" but > I think we all know that certain fundamentals > remain: the fragmentaion of a > text (an anonymous multi vocal and multi-mediac text > ) is still a > challenging > possible looming there or heere, or somehwere...its > coming, whatever it is: > the idea of fixed orders and levels of people is > challenged against the > ruling class's deep need (still -today) to divide > and alienate the people: ===== "As to why we remain:/we're busy now/waiting behind bolted doors/for the season that will not pass/to pass" --Rachel Tzvia Back, "Azimuth," Sheep Meadow Press __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:43:41 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/3/02 2:08:42 AM, MuratNN@AOL.COM writes: << One shouldn't forget that a lot of radical thinking in the world today is perceived in religious terms. >> Murat, I couldn't agree more. Can it get more dangerous? Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:48:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: BeeHive 5:1 Now Online! (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII BeeHive Hypertext/Hypermedia Literary Journal Volume 5 : Issue 1 |...| Summer 2002 ________________________________________________ ISSN: 1528-8102 http://beehive.temporalimage.com ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ IN THIS ISSUE... ________________ PANHANDLE by Jason Nelson ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_a.html --------<< THE MEDDLESOME PASSENGER by Scott Rettberg ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_b.html --------<< THE PHENOMENOLOGY OF APPROACH by Alan Sondheim ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_c.html --------<< WHEN LITERATURE GOES MULTIMEDIA by Roberto Simanowski ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_d.html --------<< BJSK by Chris Ballange ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_e.html --------<< _][AD][DRESSED IN A SKIN C.ODE_ by Mez ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_f.html --------<< AXIAL POETICS by George Quasha ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_g.html --------<< CHATTED PERIODICALLY by Lawrence Upton ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_h.html --------<< INTERSPERSE / UGLY by Peter Howard ... http://beehive.temporalimage.com/content_apps51/app_j.html --------<< ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ BeeHive ArcHive: http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/index.html ALL THE CONTENT FROM PAST FOUR YEARS OF BEEHIVE Highlights include: WHAT THE HELL IS THAT? : THOMAS ZUMMER http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/42arc.html SQUARING OF THE WORD : SIEGFRIED HOLZBAUER http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/25arc.html THREADING THE PETRIFIED GLYPH : JOEL WEISHAUS http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/21arc.html ON STELARC : ALAN SONDHEIM http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/41arc.html TOWARD ELECTRACY : GREGORY ULMER / TALAN MEMMOTT [intro by Mark Amerika] http://beehive.temporalimage.com/archive/34arc.html ________________________________________________ ________________________________________________ BeeHive Creative Director: Talan Memmott / beehive@percepticon.com BeeHive Associate Editor: Alan Sondheim / beehive@percepticon.com ________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 13:33:21 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joe Brennan Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 07/03/2002 2:59:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jasonchristie615@HOTMAIL.COM writes: > > i'm eating chips and writing poems. am i rooted in transcendentalism. how > about incidentalism? in terms of moving beyond, getting past, every minute > we're past language poetry with or without the equal signs. but why set it > up in terms of lineage? why the dualism of before and after? the trace of > tradition? it hapened, is happening and will happen. then as if there is > a > central frog in the pond that has caused these con(ec)centric circles > outwards, life as if theory only showed people how they can't write > anymore. > not even web-like, there is no materiality to this interconnectedness > (weak). in the past aggressive breakages signalled a move forward. but > there are so many problems with this. progressivity, fear of 'fathers', > passionate political opposition, identity as alter-, etc and etc, et al. > no > movement has ever been forward. > > > Wouldn't this depend on how one defines 'forward'? How do you define it? joe brennan ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 12:00:08 -0700 Reply-To: lindanorton@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: linda norton Subject: sue sue Dear Susan, I celebrated Steve Dickison's birthday with him his wife, and Chris Daniels the other night, and Steve showed me your postcard collage (with the truck coming out of the card like the bat out of hell), which he hopes to reproduce in the next issue of Shuffleboil. Good. It's funny, I realize just this minute, because (for Christmas) I made a collage for him in which a caravan of rhythmic pillows from a Smith & Hawken catalog replaced a convoy of trucks in a foud photo of a godforsaken spot in Iran— I have a notebook for your collages and all they inspire– I am taking it with me to Marfa, Texas, net week, where I am to spend ten days under Lannan auspices. I mean to have something to give back to you some time– Have you ever been to Marfa? I am terrified to go. Afraid to be away from Isabel for so long, in wide open spaces, in a small town, in the heat. Also excited. I now have a whole series of NYC/WTC collages on disk and am looking for some place to show them this fall. Do you have any ideas? I think they would make a good strange small show, and I hope to write a brief essay about them (and the process of seeking, finding, and pasting) while I am in Marfa. Chris Daniels (don't know if you know him) is someone I see at many poetry parties and readings out here. He has an amazing reading voice and his thing is: translations of Brazilian poetry. Manifest Press, subsidized well by the Haas Foundation, is publishing a translation of his next year, and he is looking for some subsidy now so he can go back to Brazil and do some more translations. I have given him your email address because you always have good ideas, and because you are involved in PEN and they do give translation grants, I think. Expect to hear from him and to have pleasure reading his translations. How are you? Tell me exactly. Love, Linda On Sun, 30 Jun 2002 09:41:37 -0400 Susan Wheeler wrote: >Date: Sat, 29 Jun 2002 09:58:27 -0400 >From: Gwyn McVay >Subject: Re: Elliptical Poets? > > > which is sort like Old Jesse McVey, who Utah Phillips > > quotes as muttering "It don't matter how New Age you > > get, Old Age gone kick yo ass!" > > >Could anyone point me to a reference for this? I was already a big Utah >fan, but this is priceless. > >Old Gwyn McVay with an A Hi Gwyn -- it's from a CD collaboration with Ani DiFranco -- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:33:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: ray brown In-Reply-To: <23.20945af6.2a5483bd@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Subject: Jazz Bass legend Ray Brown passes Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:40:33 -0500 July 3, 2002 Greetings Jazz88 E-Newshounds, We are very sorry to report that Jazz Bass legend (and long time friend to KBEM) Ray Brown passed Tuesday night at the age of 75. According to Jim Wilke (host of "Jazz After Hours" on PRI) Ray's trio was in Indianapolis to play Monday and Tuesday at the Jazz Kitchen. Apparently Ray, an ardent golfer, had played Tuesday in the hot sun and had gone back to the hotel to rest before the gig. When he didn't show for the gig, they checked at the hotel and he was gone. The trio was to play dates in Germany after the current midwest dates, and then 3 weeks in Japan...typical of Ray Brown's tour schedules that were grueling even for players a third of his age. Ray Brown was much more than a bass player and band leader. He was an inspiration to many, giving encouragement (and employment) to people like Gene Harris and Ernestine Anderson whose careers had waned in later years. (From the All Music Guide to Jazz, Miller Freeman Books, San Francisco, 1994)... A steady, consistently excellent technician, Ray Brown's precise fluid sound has backed numerous vocalists, and has contributed to trios, duos, quartets, quintets and big bands since the '40s. Brown was generally regarded as the most swinging bassist to hire for a rhythm section. He moved to New York from Pittsburgh in 1945 and was immediately involved in the emerging bebop revolution. He recorded with Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gilespie, and Bud Powell while playing in Gillespie's big band in 1946 and 1947. He became Ella Fitzgerald's music director (as well as her husband) in the late '40s and worked with her until 1952. Brown played with an early edition of what became the Modern Jazz Quartet, recording with the Milt Jackson Quartet in 1951. He subsequently joined Oscar Peterson's trio, which ranked among jazz's most popular combos of the '50s and '60s. Ray was voted top bassist consistently in critics polls during the decade of the '50s. Brown proved the ideal partner for Peterson's swirling, intricate solos. The Peterson/Brown/Herb Ellis lineup stayed intact until 1957, and Brown remained with Peterson until 1966. There were also albums for Verve, with Kenny Burrell, Hank Jones, Milt Jackson, big bands, and even with gospel singer Marion Williams. During the '70s, Brown became affiliated with the Pablo and Concord record labels( which led to two duet albums with pianist Jimmie Rowles, nine albums as part of the L.A. Four, and a magnificent recording with Duke Ellington..."This One's for Blanton" dedicated to the legendary bassist Jimmy Blanton). Brown continued recording at Concord in the '80s. In the late '80s, Brown formed a trio with pianist Gene Harris and drummer Mickey Roker and toured extensively. In the 1990s, Brown initiated an affiliation with Telarc, recording several projects for Telarc including the "Some of My Best Friends Are..." Series and "Superbass" and "Superbass 2". Ray's latest Telarc release is "Some of My Best Friends Are...Guitarists", featuring guitarists Russel Malone,John Pizzarelli,Herb Ellis,Ulf Wakenius,Kenny Burrell and Bruce Forman. This project includes "Soulful Spirit" a lovely track dedicated to the late Billy Higgins, featuring guitarist Kenny Burrell. Ray Brown was active in artist management and concert promotion for many years. He helped revive Ernestine Anderson's career in the mid '70s and assisted her in landing a deal with Concord Records. He managed Quincy Jones, and for years produced concerts at the Hollywood Bowl. He published several bass instruction books. Ray Brown had been scheduled to appear at the Dakota Bar and Grill in St. Paul on July 22nd. Tune in to "The Cruise with Kevin O'Connor" this afternoon from 3 pm to 7 pm. Kevin will be featuring several tracks from Ray's discography. Friday, July 5th, the Classic Jazz Hour from noon to 1 p.m. will be dedicated to Ray Brown and "Monday Evening Jazz with Tom Surowicz" (Monday evening 8 to 11 p.m.) will undoubtedly highlight Ray's career. All of us at KBEM will miss the wonderful musical spirit Ray Brown brought to Jazz! For more info on Ray Brown, discography, etc., visit www.telarc.com Thanks for tuning in and have a safe 4th of July! Kevin Barnes and the Jazz88 Crew ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:57:39 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit One style available to younger poets is fragmentary lyricism. Susan Howe established this mode in works like "Silence Wager Stories," and its principles have been imitated by dozens of younger writers. Basically, the style uses diction to override syntax. The poet may lyricize at the level of individual words, but must avoid syntax that suggests a straighforward expression of feeling. In other words, the power and strangeness of lyric is separated from the personality of its author and confined to bits of conventionally "lyric" diction. These bits are usually held together by intriguing sound effects. Thus Howe can write (at the end of "Rückenfigur"): "Lyric over us love unclothe / Never forever whoso move." Imagine trying to use the words "love" or "forever" in a speech-based lyric poem. Impossible. But by being fragmentary the lyrical experimentalist can wax well-nigh romantic. Lissa Wolsak is skilled in this mode. She can mimic the Howe-style vatic swoon, using diction such as "sorrow" and "silence" and "o." But her more characteristic attitude toward language seems to be that of a collector. In her writing, she shows off her odds and ends, some of which she enjoys for their kitsch value while others are presented earnestly. Formally, this results in a style that is accretive and tonally mixed, rather than finished and coherent. _Pen Chants_ is basically a collection of jottings which could have gone on for 500 pages. Here is page 43: and after, istle, finochio, ixia "rich in apples" they, for emissive lips cooled forth chilled persimmon sheathes, disinterest in the speech of ill-lit, rigor-like ink flows on top of milk untroubled and smiling an Engai cuts the tail from a living lion The insertion of blank lines between the lines of verse accentuates a fragmentation that is already palpable in the first line, with its Poundian copula. Then comes a string of words and phrases with minimal syntactic tissue. The second line ("istle, finochio, ixia") is the verbal equivalent of someone's rock collection. The third is a bit of found lyricism, safely enclosed in quotes. Then the style becomes consciously mellifluous, paratactic, with two crisp images: Pound again. The final image of the tail-ectomy seems intended to leave the reader in a stunned hush, though why the poem should conclude with this image is unknown. Diction does all the work up until then. And the intended effect is clearly lyrical: lips cooled by chilled fruit, the "wondrous" image of ink floating on milk, the violence of the Engai (a Masai deity, I believe). Yet we are left unsure about the poet's own relation to these bits and pieces (an uncertainty we never feel in Howe's work, or Pound's). Is this collection meant to be kitschy? Or impressive? Fragmentary lyricism keeps us guessing, while the poet gets to have her persimmons and eat them too. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:40:23 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Rathmann" To: Sent: 03 July 2002 22:57 Subject: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ I was chatting to someone the other day about my secondary school englit teaching days and the absolute necessity I felt to get away from that &, with that some distance in the past, I found it difficult to explain; but you have brought it all back to me:- The desire to have everything bullet-pointed | One style available to younger poets is fragmentary lyricism. the writer as solitary worker with individually attributable achievements as in a sort of Kings and Queens approach to history the cause and effect diagram, this writer led to that writer and similarities are evidence of causality Susan Howe | established this mode [...] | Lissa Wolsak is skilled in this mode. Simplistic or missing the point dismissiveness pretending to be analysis (and the word "basic" covering the lack of anything sophisticated) |Basically, the | style uses diction to override syntax. The poet may lyricize at the level | of individual words, but must avoid syntax that suggests a straighforward | expression of feeling. In other words, the power and strangeness of lyric | is separated from the personality of its author and confined to bits of | conventionally "lyric" diction. These bits are usually held together by | intriguing sound effects. Doubtful or irrelevant assertion | Imagine trying to use the words "love" or "forever" in a speech-based lyric | poem. (Ive used both) Waffle But by being fragmentary the lyrical experimentalist | can wax well-nigh romantic. Unsubstantiated assumption | She can mimic the Howe-style Rhetoric in place of evidence | She can mimic the Howe-style vatic | swoon, Limited horizons | accretive and tonally mixed, rather than | finished and coherent. The students had a sort of an excuse. They didn't know enough and yet still had to deal with people who had power over them saying "Write me 1500 words on Why Hamlet was not a tosser" Closed reading... L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 17:47:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: ray brown MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for passing this along. Ray Brown was one of the truly great bassists. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: ray brown > Subject: Jazz Bass legend Ray Brown passes > Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 14:40:33 -0500 > > July 3, 2002 > > Greetings Jazz88 E-Newshounds, > > We are very sorry to report that Jazz Bass legend (and long time > friend to KBEM) Ray Brown passed Tuesday night at the age of 75. > According to Jim Wilke (host of "Jazz After Hours" on PRI) Ray's trio > was in Indianapolis to play Monday and Tuesday at the Jazz Kitchen. > Apparently Ray, an ardent golfer, had played Tuesday in the hot sun > and had gone back to the hotel to rest before the gig. When he didn't > show for the gig, they checked at the hotel and he was gone. > > The trio was to play dates in Germany after the current midwest > dates, and then 3 weeks in Japan...typical of Ray Brown's tour > schedules that were grueling even for players a third of his age. > > Ray Brown was much more than a bass player and band leader. He was an > inspiration to many, giving encouragement (and employment) to people > like Gene Harris and Ernestine Anderson whose careers had waned in > later years. > > (From the All Music Guide to Jazz, Miller Freeman Books, San > Francisco, 1994)... > A steady, consistently excellent technician, Ray Brown's precise > fluid sound has backed numerous vocalists, and has contributed to > trios, duos, quartets, quintets and big bands since the '40s. Brown > was generally regarded as the most swinging bassist to hire for a > rhythm section. > > He moved to New York from Pittsburgh in 1945 and was immediately > involved in the emerging bebop revolution. He recorded with Charlie > Parker, Dizzy Gilespie, and Bud Powell while playing in Gillespie's > big band in 1946 and 1947. He became Ella Fitzgerald's music director > (as well as her husband) in the late '40s and worked with her until > 1952. Brown played with an early edition of what became the Modern > Jazz Quartet, recording with the Milt Jackson Quartet in 1951. He > subsequently joined Oscar Peterson's trio, which ranked among jazz's > most popular combos of the '50s and '60s. Ray was voted top bassist > consistently in critics polls during the decade of the '50s. Brown > proved the ideal partner for Peterson's swirling, intricate solos. > The Peterson/Brown/Herb Ellis lineup stayed intact until 1957, and > Brown remained with Peterson until 1966. There were also albums for > Verve, with Kenny Burrell, Hank Jones, Milt Jackson, big bands, and > even with gospel singer Marion Williams. > > During the '70s, Brown became affiliated with the Pablo and Concord > record labels( which led to two duet albums with pianist Jimmie > Rowles, nine albums as part of the L.A. Four, and a magnificent > recording with Duke Ellington..."This One's for Blanton" dedicated to > the legendary bassist Jimmy Blanton). > Brown continued recording at Concord in the '80s. In the late '80s, > Brown formed a trio with pianist Gene Harris and drummer Mickey Roker > and toured extensively. In the 1990s, Brown initiated an affiliation > with Telarc, recording several projects for Telarc including the > "Some of My Best Friends Are..." Series and "Superbass" and > "Superbass 2". Ray's latest Telarc release is "Some of My Best > Friends Are...Guitarists", featuring guitarists Russel Malone,John > Pizzarelli,Herb Ellis,Ulf Wakenius,Kenny Burrell and Bruce Forman. > This project includes "Soulful Spirit" a lovely track dedicated to > the late Billy Higgins, featuring guitarist Kenny Burrell. > > Ray Brown was active in artist management and concert promotion for > many years. He helped revive Ernestine Anderson's career in the mid > '70s and assisted her in landing a deal with Concord Records. He > managed Quincy Jones, and for years produced concerts at the > Hollywood Bowl. He published several bass instruction books. > > Ray Brown had been scheduled to appear at the Dakota Bar and Grill in > St. Paul on July 22nd. > > Tune in to "The Cruise with Kevin O'Connor" this afternoon from 3 pm > to 7 pm. Kevin will be featuring several tracks from Ray's > discography. Friday, July 5th, the Classic Jazz Hour from noon to 1 > p.m. will be dedicated to Ray Brown and "Monday Evening Jazz with Tom > Surowicz" (Monday evening 8 to 11 p.m.) will undoubtedly highlight > Ray's career. > > All of us at KBEM will miss the wonderful musical spirit Ray Brown > brought to Jazz! > > For more info on Ray Brown, discography, etc., visit www.telarc.com > > Thanks for tuning in and have a safe 4th of July! > > Kevin Barnes and the Jazz88 Crew > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 18:01:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: setition MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII setition setition clos closeup/* clos closeup/* clos closeup/* clos closeup/* clos closeup/* clos closeup/* back;ei'mebresetc.enis,eiesprrelabia strugglingehetoemake,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash back;ei'mebresetc.enis,eiesprrelabia strugglingehetoemake,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash back;ei'mebresetc.enis,eiesprrelabia strugglingehetoemake,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash back;ei'mebresetc.enis,eiesprrelabia strugglingehetoemake,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash back;ei'mebresetc.enis,eiesprrelabia strugglingehetoemake,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrashequ:e8ejp typing/*endemteineoreouteofemyelif youefuckingeyoursemera. aething.eIecan'teseyourething.eremerecomingeh andeyouearehard.eteyouein.eIeamenak meyouerededownefrometheheworldeisenothing. worldebareandebrilliantededownefrometh worldenothing harbor.ewo thisesutra,eyouewillebessityetoecomprndeisenotetoecompr whoehavegoodedehadethisesutra ber, bssiaheandepray foundationev otheadethis,eyoueshallelad;ewhexteisegr you,etheare.eSwimeamongetheasteandewre,enorehumanenoreanimaleamongeth asurevrehtemorfenwodedehtemorfenwodedehReymesediehtiwenoitrevrehtemorf nwodedeoDe::dnahenerednahenevredievrehtemorfenwodedehtemorfenwodedehReym diehtiwepmievrehtemorfenwodedehtemorfenwodedehReymesediehtiwetpircsunam phrasna-anatta.eAsethess,ethes.eJusteaseiteisenotepropetoesayethatethen toeonehasecontrolem,ethntalephexistebereforeonlusiventegroupseofencen." foresumm!eG Monewrinkl sampleseyebigge.eyseyed,ecleaseaechild's.ey wall.esesxtuseserecampnendablnkoeflippenbppennyeopnh pnchertonepndleldepnkesepnningtonepenrnrodep penzancnepopenngleneupenestroextext;epicoethisteasurer,edeshotse*/azur/br sesxtuses typing/*esetc.esetc.esetc.esetc.esetc. worldenothing clos clos clos clos clos clos againsteaewall,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash againsteaewall,ewecrash harbor.ewo foundationeheworldeisenothing.ereme,ewecrashe,ewecrashe,ewecrashe,ew crashe,ewecrash back;ei'mebr back;ei'mebr back;ei'mebr back;ei'mebr back;ei'mebr strugglingehetoemak strugglingehetoemak strugglingehetoemak strugglingehetoemak strugglingehetoemak _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:48:47 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents In-Reply-To: <144.10ddec2a.2a5364fd@aol.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hiya some here might find Robert Sheppard's take on 'poetics' up on the PORES site of interrest. http://www.bbk.ac.uk/pores/ love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 23:53:33 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: new web resource under way In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit The B.E.P.C. is a reference guide to the work of contemporary British poets from the parallel tradition. Launched in May 2002, it will provide information on poets and their publications, and audio files to accompany examples of their work. The site is particularly dedicated to increasing the understanding of the role of oral performance in this poetry, and will be supported by research projects on the history and theory of performance. B.E.P.C. is the result of collaboration between three research groups: Contemporary Poetics Research Centre in the School of English and Humanities at Birkbeck College; the Poetic Practice Group at Royal Holloway; and Cultural Poetics in the Department of English, University of Southampton. The site has been devised by the poet scholar Bill Griffiths, in conjunction with Robert Hampson, Peter Middleton and Will Rowe. B.E.P.C. home poets list newsscreen love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 19:39:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <004801c222da$670cc420$6ce286d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lawrence--An interesting critique. Would you be able to offer a more "open" reading of this, or some other, poem? Or do you object to the idea of "close reading" period? That is, do you think all "close reading" is "closed," or just that Andrew has done a particularly bad job of it? Steve On Wed, 3 Jul 2002, Lawrence Upton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Rathmann" > To: > Sent: 03 July 2002 22:57 > Subject: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > > I was chatting to someone the other day about my secondary school englit > teaching days and the absolute necessity I felt to get away from that > > &, with that some distance in the past, I found it difficult to explain; but > you have brought it all back to me:- > > The desire to have everything bullet-pointed > > | One style available to younger poets is fragmentary lyricism. > > the writer as solitary worker with individually attributable achievements as > in a sort of Kings and Queens approach to history > > the cause and effect diagram, this writer led to that writer and > similarities are evidence of causality > > Susan Howe > | established this mode > > [...] > > | Lissa Wolsak is skilled in this mode. > > Simplistic or missing the point dismissiveness pretending to be analysis > (and the word "basic" covering the lack of anything sophisticated) > > |Basically, the > | style uses diction to override syntax. The poet may lyricize at the level > | of individual words, but must avoid syntax that suggests a straighforward > | expression of feeling. In other words, the power and strangeness of lyric > | is separated from the personality of its author and confined to bits of > | conventionally "lyric" diction. These bits are usually held together by > | intriguing sound effects. > > Doubtful or irrelevant assertion > > | Imagine trying to use the words "love" or "forever" in a speech-based > lyric > | poem. > > (Ive used both) > > Waffle > > But by being fragmentary the lyrical experimentalist > | can wax well-nigh romantic. > > Unsubstantiated assumption > > | She can mimic the Howe-style > > Rhetoric in place of evidence > > | She can mimic the Howe-style vatic > | swoon, > > Limited horizons > > | accretive and tonally mixed, rather than > | finished and coherent. > > The students had a sort of an excuse. They didn't know enough and yet still > had to deal with people who had power over them saying "Write me 1500 words > on Why Hamlet was not a tosser" > > Closed reading... > > L > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 01:16:31 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Shoemaker" To: Sent: 04 July 2002 00:39 Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ Steven | Would you be able to offer a more | "open" reading of this, or some other, poem? Re this book / poem / set of poems, and it is, I believe, all of those, I am *hoping to provide a reading of my own. (Whether it is any better than that which I am criticising remains to be seen. My ability to write a more open reading is surely not a precondition for thinking that another's reading is poor) I have had the book for review for some time. There are many reasons, most of them boring except to me, why I am behind in reviewing - and it's not a thing I do a lot of; but I have found it difficult to articulate what I feel about the _pen chants_ and have put it on one side more than once to return to - fatal! I *shall get there but I wish that I had moved faster. It is no longer Wolsak's latest and I was more interested in drawing attention to it than in putting on record my unimportant take It was my admiration for _pen chants_, and for Wolsak's poetry in general and particular, which made me focus on the posting. I was interested to see what another had to say Or do you object to the idea | of "close reading" period? That is, do you think all "close reading" is | "closed," I am very much in favour of close reading. I use the phrase myself, without intending to claim it as mine, in a piece I wrote about Maggie O'Sullivan. For what that's worth you can find it, or could, at NACIP | or just that Andrew has done a particularly bad job of it? that was my position, is my position Anyone's entitled not to like the book. Generally I try to keep quiet when I don't like a book of poetry. There is so much that I want to praise, generally I would rather concentrate on that but I shouldn't object to people giving their reasons though I am surprised they have the energy Hatchet jobs can have a disastrous effect upon the poet hatcheted and should not be lightly undertaken. I think we owe to each other, if we are going to attack a piece of work - and this *was an attack - to do it well; and I do not think this was done at all well L ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 20:30:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steven Shoemaker Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <001e01c222f0$627ab6e0$031a86d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks for replying, Lawrence. I'd certainly be interested in seeing your review when it's done, and I'm sure others wld too, so do let us know. I don't know Wolsak's poetry, but am curious... steve ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 21:55:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: The Death of Superman - 1961 Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Canto 61=20 Superman #149 Cover date: November 1961=20 The Death of Superman! Book One : Lex Luthor, Hero This is an imaginary tale that may not ever happen ever=20 Bold images=20 our beliefs create=20 a perpetual elevated joy=20 spirit providing clarity, vision, and zeal=20 necessary for continuing life Bursting flares to heavens=20 celebrating the flames sending=20 There is nothing so bold as peppermint imaginations=20 Arizona brush runs prominence wild=20 as cinnamon ice cream on hot July=20 Our vision swirls cotton cones Them / others / no longer with us=20 There is no music allowed behind grey stone=20 when walking the afternoon prison yard Convict 15489 : Lex Luthor=20 and his guard walk=20 by a prisoner hammering boulders=20 Within the veins of rock=20 at the prisoner=92s feet lay glowing=20 a streak of red gold=20 we believe our primary focus of success Without warning, Luthor spins and battered his guard=20 As all actions consume consequence=20 Convict 15489 is immediately sent to the rock-pile=20 But this is exactly what mad genius darkly wants=20 to be with the red gold stone =20 Rapt with passion Luthor=20 crushes fine like dust,=20 stuffing the grains into his pockets=20 That night in Luthor's cell=20 is illuminated by the radiant glory of the stone=20 at long last=20 within these bleak walls=20 not know anywhere on the planet A welcome home again=20 We have the ability to serve=20 Lex Luthor found Element Z=20 Its an easy task to realize the possibilities of Element Z=20 but it takes the fundamentals of ownership to make it=20 a true endeavor =20 a revolutionary solutions tool=20 for comprehensive integration of all practice=20 ultimately resulting in greater satisfaction as well as increased growth all through harnessing the power of the stars=20 > > >=20 The office of the warden is not like those found in a bankers affair=20 Dark green paints seclude him from the freedom=92s of an open office=20 the law pays in rewards aloud=20 knowing Luthor=92s past well the warden is skeptical requesting a laboratory=20 conduct experiments with an element unknown=20 predicting a cure for cancer=20 We bring to the marketplace=20 imaginations that benefit=20 people and greater profitability=20 Element Z will revolutionize the way medical practices=20 run their businesses by offering a full array of services=20 Our solutions are bold, our imaginations think big=20 We are demanding, relentless souls determined greater than those currently exposed greater than imagined by most=20 Just picture it=20 Reluctantly, the warden gives 24 hours,=20 under guarded supervision at all times=20 In that time, Luthor rewards the warden's with a working serum=20 The confirmations came later that day,=20 the warden tells Luthor at his rock-pile=20 "The investigating scientists have reported fantastic success!=20 Doomed cancer patients were cured instantly by your serum!" =20 > > >=20 At the Daily Planet the response is pale,=20 found it hard to accept as true that=20 the evil Lex Luthor has renewed his let on the living =20 Still, Superman wary, feels confidence in hard science=20 if Luthor has contributed to science,=20 after drawing so much from it to perform=20 energized and committed=20 the continual search for new and improved=20 not only survival Superman values most above all else=20 all people are descended from a singularity taking a single life is destroying an entirety the saving a singularity is analogous to saving an entirety=20 Superman ventures to outer space to retrieve and asteroid of Element Z=20 Superman appears and speaks on Luthor's behalf at his parole board,=20 the things he has destroyed, the things regained Luthor is released=20 The sun is shining and freedom floats white=20 Superman meets Luthor at the prison gate,=20 making offers to set Luthor on a path to his new life=20 In a maneuver Superman flies to the remnants of Luthor Lair=20 Luthor shows Superman all of the technology employed=20 to deceive Superman from finding this space=20 Privacy is imperative for reducing=20 And in a special room, Luthor shows Superman his Hall of Heroes: statues=20 Atilla the Hun,=20 Ghengis Khan,=20 Captain Kidd=20 & Al Capone =20 Sir Isaac Newton =20 "Please destroy the statues!" requests Luthor, =93But leave Sir Isaac, I=92ve always admired him=94 and Superman smashes the representations to shards=20 One lives in death=20 The others death lives on there is identification with life predictions knowledge, illusions of imagination, fantasy and memories when life predictions diminish=20 the mind is a jewel of saturation=20 action, thing, subject=20 | i | n | t | e | r | p | e | n | e | t | r | a | t | e | "I'm going to sell this place," says Luthor, "rent a laboratory in an office building and operate openly like any respectable scientist would" the nature of the thing is elucidated to its most subtle depths=20 passionate selfless awareness constitutes the activity of death death is to surrender the projections of the mind=20 then the true nature of the self, obvious as ice reminisces down the hallway=20 Superman and Luthor slide though=20 the atomic powered top=20 that destroy an entire town=20 =20 its purpose is to promote=20 to undermine the duality=20 of the seer and the seen And Superman could never forget that Duplicator Ray=20 The one that Luthor used to create the imperfect double: Bizarro=20 the seer exists in seeing alone=20 a reaction to mindful predictions=20 for that reason only the seen exist as long as any seer remain the seen remains the two potencies, subject and thing,=20 take their form only in relation to one another=20 that relationship is caused by benighted folly Ahh, the good old days=20 > > >=20 The new man is never hard to see=20 After having sold=20 Luthor Lair=20 moved into conservancy=20 a white laboratory coat=20 a pocket full of pencils=20 =20 dissolves into otherness=20 the limbs of death dissolve restrictions into the radiant wisdom=20 awareness=20 Death is sensitivity, honesty, openness, focus generosity=20 the great, universal commitment that is unlimited by any circumstance Life is commitment, composure, passion, self awareness, selflessness=20 joyful steadiness in the body free from tension=20 the infinite beyond duality is Life Luthor comments to the press he will now research=20 a cure for heart disease=20 As the three reporters finally exit,=20 two dark men enter=20 "Duke Garner and Al Mantz: underworld hoods!"=20 Luthor gets painted into a corner=20 "Either you kill Superman, or we kill you Who's gonna die, genius?=20 You or Superman?=94 =20 all people are descended from a singularity taking a single life is destroying an entirety the saving a singularity is analogous to saving an entirety=20 only the prohibitions against murder, idolatry, incest and adultery=20 so important are they that they cannot be violated to save a life=20 Heroism not only permits,=20 but often requires a person=20 to violate the commandment=20 if necessary to save a life=20 Because life is valuable, we are not permitted to do anything that may hasten death,=20 not even to prevent suffering=20 Euthanasia, suicide and assisted suicide are strictly forbidden=20 may not move a dying person's arms if that will suspend life However, where death is imminent and certain,=20 and the patient is suffering,=20 death is not a tragedy,=20 even when it occurs early in life=20 Death is a natural process=20 Our death, like our lives,=20 have significance and are all pieces of a puzzle where those who have played will be rewarded=20 Mourning practices are wide not as expression of fear=20 or=20 meekly distain for death=20 =20 Book II Luthor's Super-Bodyguard "Luthor, because of your scientific genius, you're probably the only one who can succeed=20 in destroying Superman," says Duke Garner=20 Arms against the wall =09 a small gun to the head=20 "I won't betray Superman! He's my friend now"=20 Just then Superman=20 flies through the window=20 throws his body between=20 the bullets=20 striking him=20 not Luthor=20 Later: the gangsters are herded off=20 Superman gives Luthor a signal watch,=20 similar to the one given to Jimmy Olsen=20 When Luthor is in danger the watch=20 will transmit ultrasonic signals to Superman=20 Over the next few cold blooded nights the underworld attempts to kill Luthor hand grenades=20 rare venom snakes=20 Venezuelan poison darts=20 and regular car bombs Superman every time=20 to protect Luthor Superman=20 must guard every moment Meeting with Supergirl they conclude=20 Luthor would be completely safe orbiting Earth aboard a space laboratory=20 Once transported to the laboratory Luthor is happy=20 But even here he is not safe=20 The underworld arranges a missile to destroy the satellite=20 Again, Superman prevents disaster,=20 and now shields the satellite with=20 a super-hard, semi-transparent substance "Nothing, not even a hydrogen bomb, can pierce this," says Superman=20 As a further precaution,=20 Superman constructs a missile=20 that he can fire into the atmosphere=20 should a crisis arise=20 Only a week later, that missile is launched,=20 and Superman hurries to the satellite=20 what peril could Luthor face this time? =20 "What's wrong," asks Superman entering the satellite=20 "Wrong? Nothing's wrong, for me:" says Luthor=20 With that, a switch flips,=20 a powerful Kryptonite ray=20 projected at Superman and lead-lined lids lifts =20 Superman is stunned, confused=20 "The rays turn them off=20 Have you gone out of your mind?"=20 Luthor only chuckles=20 "It was so easy to trick you=94=20 Seconds later strapped=20 to a medical bench with=20 Binding Kryptonite straps=20 And to view this triumph=20 Behind unbreakable glass=20 are Lois, Jimmy and Perry=20 abducted to force them watch the progress of murder=20 This is how one kills a god=20 Superman can only struggle weakly=20 as he begins to turn=20 green=20 from the Kryptonite=20 fever=20 "Luthor hasn't reformed! He's as evil as ever," sobs Lois=20 "Resistance is futile, you fool," says Luthor=20 With his last breath=20 struggles Superman=20 "I was a fool to trust you"=20 "Indeed you were," declares Luthor=20 mercilessly increases the intensity of the rays=20 Superman transforms completely green=20 His struggles cease=20 He is dead=20 "At last!"=20 screams Luthor=20 "After all of these years of vainly trying,=20 I've finally succeeded in killing Superman!"=20 Luthor lands the satellite lab on earth,=20 releasing his captives=20 Lois, Jimmy and Perry=20 disposing his conquest with Superman's body=20 Using his powerful radio,=20 Luthor announces to earth=20 that he has killed Superman=20 =93Soon, I'll be king of earth"=20 the world lay saddened in shock=20 [Guardianship of the Dead]=20 After a person dies, the eyes are closed,=20 the body is laid on the floor and covered,=20 candles are lit next to the body=20 The body will never be left alone until burial, as a sign of respect=20 Respect for the body in death is a matter of prominent significance=20 The presence of the dead=20 is considered ritual impurity=20 In preparation for the burial, the body will be thoroughly cleansed, wrapped in a simple yellow linen shroud the Stars decree that the dress of the dead and the coffin should be simple, so that the poor would not receive less honor in death than the rich=20 The body will not embalmed, and no organs or fluids removed=20 The body must not be cremated It must be returned to the earth=20 May the Lord comfort you and all those that mourn=20 Book III The Death of Superman The sun also rises on a distraught world=20 to mourn Superman outside the Metropolis Square a great throngs of people crowded=20 "May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world=20 that He created as He willed May He give reign to His kingship=20 in your lifetimes and in your days "=20 Paying respects to the greatest hero the world has seen=20 are heads of state from nations, civilizations and planets =20 A assembly of sad faces pass Superman=92s glass sheathed tomb=20 including his pal Jimmy Olsen, his super dog Krypto,=20 representatives from the Legion of Superheroes=20 the three women that loved him the most,=20 Lana Lang, Lori Lemaris and Lois Lane=20 Near the unassuming back,=20 his super cousin in disguise,=20 Linda Lee fights back tears=20 And in Kandor, the bottle-city of Krypton, flies the flag at half mast=20 After a great loss like the death of a hero,=20 one might expect a person to lose faith=20 the way or to cry out against injustice=20 despite this loss the soul must spend some time reflecting before it can move on In spectacular dissimilarity=20 to Luthor's triumph the underworld is holds a jamboree=20 "Tell us again how you killed Superman, Luthor"=20 Luthor with merriment agrees=20 with another toast for his honor=20 taking cigar and brandy pointed=20 along the mantel place he begins his tale,=20 BUT THEN ! =20 a costumed figure=20 a blazoned red-S=20 bursts through the wall=20 a scream=20 "Superman's alive" =20 "It ain't Superman It's a girl with super-powers"=20 The enlightened can only watch=20 as the girl bullets=20 bouncing off of her back=20 lifts Luthor up, up and away=20 "Luthor, in the name of the planet Krypton, I arrest you for murder"=20 > > >=20 The trial is telecast throughout the world=20 Luthor scoffs with an icy arrogance=20 in grim arrogance Luthor confesses =20 for the proceeding and the court orders swift justice=20 enter the Phantom Zone=20 Quickly, Luthor sweating offers to restore Kandor=20 to it's original size=20 if they merely agree to release him=20 "We Kandorians do not make deals murderer!"=20 the executioner engages=20 the black button condemning=20 for all eternity=20 Lex Luthor to the Phantom Zone=20 > > >=20 the world struggles=20 The law requires that a tombstone be prepared,=20 so that the deceased will not be forgotten=20 and the grave will not be desecrated=20 Stones, unlike flowers, are permanent=20 not blowing away with the winds=20 Supergirl resumes patrols attended by Krypto=20 Flying over Superman's tomb,=20 a marble colossus of memory=20 our Superman=20 tehe nishmatah tzerurah bitzror hachayim Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza =20 editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/=20 __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru =20 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 22:50:11 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Chicago scene In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi all, I've recently heard from an old college friend who's looking for some kind of poetry reading/writing group in Chicago. If anyone has any suggestions, please post to the list or back channel & I'll forward them to him. Bests, Herb ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 03:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest... MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Nick, It seems to me that this moves in two important directions.. One as you point out is the 'need' to construct hierarchies so one can either thrive within them or battle against them. This by it's very nature leads to the "schooling of poets" - 'we younger poets....", etc...which is of course the way the world is and always was and will be, but I wonder how productive this direction is? - I would suspect that the initial adoption of a persona does initially lead to productive work but there is a limit to this I would suspect and those on the list who teach might have some insight into this. The other direction I have been mulling here relates i think more to poetry as it could be done and play in a fruitful direction. Due to circumstances (and inclination!) I have been spending a lot of time recently with my garnddaughter who just turned one last week. Our play does seem to be developing some rules but the curious thing I've noticed is that the 'rules' seem to come from me - I'm thinking here of things like reciprocity and 'instruction' - she falls on her a__ and then with time and a little assistance she learns she can pick herself up again and comes right back at me for food and water. This might be an idiosyncratic digression but it seems to me relevant to the topic here. I think this segues into Winnicott's squiggle game? ----- yet another direction this moves in is [poet and reader] vis-a-vis the world and society as richard notes in his reading of Auden: "the "story" is the world, the human mind, the darkness and the light." and I ponder what I relate to my granddaughter of the world she's entered. I think it's here that poetics moves into the sphere that Murat and Michael Heller want to take it, that of rhetoric and 'poetic' thinking as Lawrence Upton's comments on the rhetorical 'WAFFLE' point -> There is, for example Bukowski and hundreds of Bukowskiites. tom bell Nick wrote: >offering each other a method of encouraging greater access > to kindling writerly momentum without so much emphasis being placed on > issues of quality or the tracking of professional accomplishment. > > > > Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:29:59 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Murat wrote: I disagree with this point of view, the idea that writing poetics is a kind of poetry itself (as far as I can see, a point of view manufactured by semiology). In my opinion, a poetics without a body of work backing it (or from which it emanates) is meaningless. I take 'poetics' to mean, in contexts such as this, the theory of writing practice, usually as developed by poets. If poetics texts concerned with poetry are not a kind of poetry the question is what kind of writing are they? They aren't scholarly articles or critical reviews, and they aren't 'about' poetry in the sense of being 'secondary' texts about 'primary' texts (bodies of work). They are themselves bodies of work about bodies of work, 'about' in the sense that their 'emanation' is an enactment of the relation. This understanding of poetics texts is not peculiar to L= writing, on the contrary; it is implicit in manifesto texts, from early last century, in 'Projective Verse',as it is in the poetics texts of Bruce Andrews shall we say. This understanding may not make them kinds of poems, any more than their refusual of 'secondariness' renders the primary texts of some post-structuralist 'theorists' poetry, but it does mark their difference. Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 10:19:58 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: sorry In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit as Lawrence pointed out to me my hasty cut and paste has unleashed html gibberish the British Electronic Poetry Centre is at: http://www.soton.ac.uk/~bepc/about.html apologies due love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:01:09 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Murat Etal. I think that it depends on how you define poetry: I can see a kind of writing that is eg Scot Hamilton's "poessays" are interesting, but I currently have Nick Piombino's book (latest) and it combines a kind of poetic practice with what is at one level or is seen in at least one way is poetics or at least philosophising about poetry and language: and this is not unique to Language Poets. I read a book about Geoffrey Hill and its author saw the analogies of the poetic practice to "external events" (what seemed to me to be 'about" a roof and a man working on it was about making a poem and so on...(I didnt find the connection easy myself however))...maybe that's not poetics or even near it but the book, say Bernstein's "A Poetics", as Wystan says, becomes a text about (hence "connected" to) the poet's work/works:hence maybe that's why it's in a "poetic form" in places to emphasise this cross-copulation of genres or writing practices... in fact in many forms...there are now since the language poetry movement many more possibilities of what poetry is and what language can do: we can still read poetry sans theory, or sans "overt" theory...most people do..but there is always maybe an implied theoretical view: even if its not our own... a lover of W Worth's "Daffodils" (which is still a good if not a great poem) would maybe stop there: his "theory" wont allow "meaningless" or difficult stuff...that's enough for him or her: to him Bruce Andrews eg isnt a poet; he's appears to be mad or ..well: it is full of swear words and strange things and something about commerce and politics: things that "dont belong" in a poem.... and it doesnt rhyme and so on...others want to get into the meat of things: Bruce Andrews and whoever else is "difficult" they can dig as much as WW or Keats...many ways to dissect a pineapple. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" To: Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents > Murat wrote: > > > I disagree with this point of view, the idea that writing poetics is a kind > of poetry itself (as far as I can see, a point of view manufactured by > semiology). In my opinion, a poetics without a body of work backing it (or > from which it emanates) is meaningless. > > I take 'poetics' to mean, in contexts such as this, the theory of writing > practice, usually as developed by poets. If poetics texts concerned with > poetry are not a kind of poetry the question is what kind of writing are > they? They aren't scholarly articles or critical reviews, and they aren't > 'about' poetry in the sense of being 'secondary' texts about 'primary' texts > (bodies of work). They are themselves bodies of work about bodies of work, > 'about' in the sense that their 'emanation' is an enactment of the relation. > This understanding of poetics texts is not peculiar to L= writing, on the > contrary; it is implicit in manifesto texts, from early last century, in > 'Projective Verse',as it is in the poetics texts of Bruce Andrews shall we > say. This understanding may not make them kinds of poems, any more than > their refusual of 'secondariness' renders the primary texts of some > post-structuralist 'theorists' poetry, but it does mark their difference. > Wystan ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 06:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Dowker Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are a few links to Lissa Wolsak's poetry. http://members.rogers.com/alterra/wols.htm http://www.fauxpress.com/t8/wolsak/a.htm http://www.scc.rutgers.edu/however/v1_5_2001/current/readings/erotics/wolsak.html David alterra@rogers.com http://members.rogers.com/alterra/ Steven Shoemaker wrote: > Thanks for replying, Lawrence. I'd certainly be interested in seeing your > review when it's done, and I'm sure others wld too, so do let us know. I > don't know Wolsak's poetry, but am curious... > > steve ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:13:46 -0500 Reply-To: dtv@mwt.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Organization: Awkword Ubutronics Subject: Re: sorry MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit is there any relationship to the "other" EPC? is that why a similar name is chosen? m cris cheek wrote: > as Lawrence pointed out to me my hasty cut and paste has unleashed html > gibberish > > the British Electronic Poetry Centre is at: > > http://www.soton.ac.uk/~bepc/about.html > > apologies due > > love and love > cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:57:34 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here's a few sentences from Verena Andermatt Conley's forward to the English translation of Catherine Clement's _Syncope: The Philosophy of Rapture_ (University of Minnesota Press, 1994): "...Clement targets the century-old philosophical Western practice of establishing a full subject in philosophical terms one with the advent of metaphysics, the division between subject and object, and the demise of woman as well as nature. This practice eliminates from its purview anything that approaches even in the slightest a vanishment, a gap, or a swoon of meaning that Clement calls the _syncope_. This term, which applies to symptoms as diverse as sneezing, laughing, asthma, or epileptic seizure, is borrowed from music: 'The queen of rhythm, syncope is also the mother of _dissonance_; it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born.'" Substitute Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry of great verve and elegance. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:09:54 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: sorry Comments: To: dtv@mwt.net In-Reply-To: <3D244A0B.DE6756F8@mwt.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi mIEKAL, no relation between the EPC and BEPC as far as i know. Other than imitation love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 08:08:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Felsinger Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <3D242496.9060700@rogers.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit And an interview of Lissa Wolsak can be found at VeRT: http://www.litvert.com/lwolsakinter.html Andrew ----------------------------------------------- VERT "I am finally entangled clear." --Clark Coolidge http://www.litvert.com > From: David Dowker > Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group > Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 06:33:58 -0400 > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > > Here are a few links to Lissa Wolsak's poetry. > > http://members.rogers.com/alterra/wols.htm > > http://www.fauxpress.com/t8/wolsak/a.htm > > http://www.scc.rutgers.edu/however/v1_5_2001/current/readings/erotics/wolsak.h > tml > > David > > alterra@rogers.com > http://members.rogers.com/alterra/ > > Steven Shoemaker wrote: > >> Thanks for replying, Lawrence. I'd certainly be interested in seeing > your >> review when it's done, and I'm sure others wld too, so do let us > know. I >> don't know Wolsak's poetry, but am curious... >> >> steve > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 09:13:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Vidaver Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd like to scrutinize that essay, too, Lawrence, when it gets written. A selection from Wolsak's earlier The Garcia Family Co-Mercy (Tsunami Editions, 1994) is on-line at: http://www.speakeasy.org/subtext/poetry/wolsak/poem1.htm Readers may also want to be exposed to her freestanding short poems "Noyade" (Front magazine, Summer 1990), "Orchard Sutra" (Barscheit, Winter 1991), "Fistnotes" (Lounge broadside, 1995) and "Figmental" (Gorse Press broadside, 1996; reprinted in Matrix 50 [1997]: 54). Aaron Vidaver ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 12:26:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Kristin Dykstra Subject: Chicago events? In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On a similar note, a friend from Cuba is in Chicago now and is interested in attending poetry events in English and/or Spanish. His interests range pretty widely, so any suggestions would be welcome. --On Wednesday, July 03, 2002, 10:50 PM -0500 Herb Levy wrote: > Hi all, > > I've recently heard from an old college friend who's looking for some > kind of poetry reading/writing group in Chicago. > > If anyone has any suggestions, please post to the list or back > channel & I'll forward them to him. > > Bests, > > Herb > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:50:26 +0000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jason christie Subject: Re: Content and Its Discontents Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed well, i've got a little magnifying glass and the compact edition of the oed... forward: 1. to help or push forward; to advance, assist, hasten, romote, urge on. also, to put forward, set in motion. 2. to accelerate the growth of (plants, etc.) 3. to send forward, to send to an ulterior destination (a thing rarely a person). in commercial language often loosely, to dispatch, send by some regular mode of conveyance. 4. bookbinding. to get (a sewed book) ready for the 'finisher' by putting a plain cover on. prologue: in isolation forward isn't a troublesome word. at this late capitalist juncture though i think of forward as the direction of every sentence toward a recuperable product. forward=this idea of progress. and progress is the goal of productivity. bigger better fallout from the 1980s. barthes says in his essay at the end of phillipe sollers Event: a novel, "every sentence is a small narrative." this implies sentences have a set direction for understanding even when their structure may disrupt linearity. we understand forwards. even where we understand something like a rhizomic structure we understand first the rhizome and move forward. sentences enforce this direction. narratives progress. we aim at sense as a recuperable product from the start of any project no matter how disparate the impetus. desire, whatever, need, necessity, communication depends on misfires. things, edges that poke out from rigidified language structures to connect two sentences together because i can only tell you what i'm telling you in one way: the way of this telling at this time. and you can only understand in one way at a time. the space between sentences is swarmed with hope for connection. even understanding in retrospect is a type of movement forward though it is considered a reversal against a larger paradigm of the progression of absolute time. looking back is a relative forward movement from a person's position since the action of reading is always a forward movement through sentences. even words are forward oriented. from start to finish. >Wouldn't this depend on how one defines 'forward'? How do you define it? > >joe brennan _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:48:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Poetics/politics/power MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/3/02 10:02:50 AM, mh7@NYU.EDU writes: >Don't know whether or not I'm clanging or chiming with Nick and > >Murat. Nick sees poetics as leading to the poet's empowering, and Murat > > >feels, especially with "Language Poetry," the burden of prior > >poetics. Michael, I do not want to speak for Nick but wish to respond to your characterization of my position. "The burden of prior poetics" has the hint of "anxiety of influence." I was writing before LS emerged, wrote during its ascendancy and am writing now. Those familiar with my work know that it has a continuity through the years. In other words, the idea of LS constituting a "prior poetics" does not apply. A number of years ago Charles Bernstein and I exchanged letters where some of the issues were discussed. On my part, I concluded that a convergence of our points of view was essentially impossible, which indirectly, along with my other concerns, led me to the writing of the essay, "Questions of Accent." My disagreement and rejection of analytic philosophy, specifically of Wittgenstein, goes back to 1962 (I was trained in it). Through the years I developed a counter argument (counter poetics?) based on W. Benjamin (particularly his essays on photography and translation), the practices of turkish poetry and the sensibility it embodied and my take on sufism. My issue is not my fear of LP influencing me (while one of its techniques, punning, has also roots in sufi mysticism and the kabbalah with very different consequences); but its monopoly of poetic discourse. It is, to me, a question of power, and of my rejection of its authority because it has little relation to what, the reality I want to write about. My reference to younger poets in my last two posts has to do with my sense of convergence between what they want to do and what I have been trying to do at least the last twenty-five years, specifically in our political concerns. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 15:57:13 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Reminder - Coolidge pages @ EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Clark Coolidge author page is now linked from the EPC home, new, and = author directory pages - no need, as before, to link direct. However = you get there, just a friendly reminder that Tom Orange has done a great = service in his editing and creating these pages, with solid assistance = from Coolidge. Many exclusives ... PDF e-book of uncollected / = unpublished on its way soon. =20 Forthcoming: EPC author pages new and updated for Lyn Hejinian, Will = Alexander, Myung Mi Kim, and Rod Smith. http://epc.buffalo.edu K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 16:10:33 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Reminder - new Kenning publications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Due to annual inventory work, there has been a delay cataloging the new = issue of Kenning at Small Press Distribution. =20 Although it will be available to individuals and the trade through SPD = asap, in the meantime I want to remind you of=20 subsciption options, which not only save the individual buyer some cash = but help sustain Kenning in general. $25.00 U.S. payable to the editor, Patrick F. Durgin, will get you = Kenning # 11-13: OFTEN, a play by Barbara Guest=20 & Kevin Killian (regularly $7.50); WAY / Kenning - the audio edition, a = double-CD featuring recordings of / by=20 Amiri Baraka, Anne-Marie Albiach, Edwin Torres, Sawako Nakayasu, Lauren = Gudath & Jay Schwartz,=20 Andrew Levy & Gerry Hemingway, et al, plus the first full length audio = publication of Leslie Scalapino's book=20 WAY (regularly $15.00); Kenning #13, a newsletter featuring new = writing, book reviews, a column on 'critical paranoia,'=20 a paranoid critical cut-out feature from Thom Donovan (on Zukofsky), and = authors such as Susan Schultz, Terrence=20 Chiusano, Kit Robinson, Nathaniel Tarn, Dolores Durantes (trans. Jen = Hofer) etc, handprinted covers designed and=20 printed by the infamous LRSN (regularly $6.00). Subscriptions and = individual orders for these issues should be sent=20 to the address below. Or, wait a week or two and place an order with SPD. Remember, you can = order many such small or micro-press wares=20 through your local independent bookseller. When they sneer and say = "Never heard of it...," tell 'em to order from SPD. While I have your attention: Fabulous new issues of Ixnay, Anamoly, = Combo, and Bombay Gin are recently out. =20 All, I think, have been announced here. K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 17:20:40 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Evaluative Criticism Is The Highest...on Armantrout In-Reply-To: <20020703160102.39624.qmail@web21402.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Kazim reminded us: remember also it was the boston review essay on her work that started the original firestorm about poetry/criticism a couple of months ago.> I reply: I seem to remember the discussion starting off with someone writing how bad they thought the piece on Armantrout was. I just re-read it, and've decided I think it's a pretty good introduction to her work (for a general audience). You can go here and read it: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.2/burt.html This piece, by Stephen Burt (he's the guy who wrote that stuff on Elliptical poets I was asking about a while back as well), makes a good companion to Ron Silliman's introduction to her selected poems (_Veil_, Wesleyan 2001), a book I think everyone should own two copies of. A snip from his introduction: "If they are often disturbing in their subtextual resonances, these poems are also remarkably cheerful and good-natured, written with an ear for (and eye to) American popular culture that is the most acute in contemporary poetry." I would agree. And here's one of those poems: GREETING That wood pole's rosy crossbar, shouldering a complement of knobs, like clothespins or Xmas lights, to which crinkly wires rise up from adjacent yards. * I miss _circumstance_ already-- the way a single word could mean necessary, relative, provisional and a bird flicks past leaving the sense that one has waved one's hand. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 18:41:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Untry: "WE LOVE OUR COUNTRY, ONLY MORE WHEN SHE'S THREATENED." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Untry: "WE LOVE OUR COUNTRY, ONLY MORE WHEN SHE'S THREATENED." Untry, i have f c ve ur l ut f war, bringing tism in the time patri rn here, that rld-slaughter, i was b t with mass w ve, n never felt this l truth t health-care universal, n n, n given turning me in every directi re hearing re and m rlds, m ther w f n mprehensi c rld, n the w tism, fear in es, american spirit, american patri nstant american her c licy, we reign p publicly criticize bush, f ssible t st imp the air, alm rism r answers, we're blinded by the cancer within, terr k elsewhere f l f irrealities, unleashing the far-right n is a virus, heightened percepti ng n am wn-shirt reminiscences, what implicit relati ng us, early br am w this t kn n untry, i d f c ve f civilians and l phic killing catastr it, i am afraid, writing this, i st t it, i am l st t ve, i will be l l w the u will kn de, y st in the c de, i will be l will write this in c thing at all, ng that, n thing am u will sense it, n f it, y rt mf dis/c ur gifts receive y pen t uth ur skirts, my m i will be safe beneath y. Have i country, of love our out bringing war, of time the in patriotism that here, born was i world-slaughter, mass with not love, this felt never to truth no universal, health-care no direction, every in me turning given hearing more and more worlds, other of comprehension no world, the in fear patriotism, american spirit, american heroes, american constant we policy, foreign bush, criticize publicly to impossible almost air, the terrorism within, cancer the by blinded we're answers, for elsewhere look far-right the unleashing irrealities, of perception heightened virus, a is among relation implicit what reminiscences, brown-shirt early us, among this know not do i country, of love and civilians of killing catastrophic i this, writing afraid, am i it, to lost am i it, to lost be will i love, the know will you code, the in lost be will i code, in this write will all, at nothing that, among nothing it, sense will you it, of dis/comfort gifts your receive to open mouth my skirts, your beneath safe be will i. I AM A BAD WRITER. I AM NOT UNDER GOD. awk -Fo -f back zz > yy; pico yy; awk -f back zz >> yy; pico yy _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 4 Jul 2002 23:34:13 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 1. What he said 2. When I have something of my own to say I'll be sure to note it here L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Beckett" To: Sent: 04 July 2002 14:57 Subject: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ | Here's a few sentences from Verena Andermatt Conley's forward to the English | translation of Catherine Clement's _Syncope: The Philosophy of Rapture_ | (University of Minnesota Press, 1994): | | "...Clement targets the century-old philosophical Western practice of | establishing a full subject in philosophical terms one with the advent of | metaphysics, the division between subject and object, and the demise of woman | as well as nature. This practice eliminates from its purview anything that | approaches even in the slightest a vanishment, a gap, or a swoon of meaning | that Clement calls the _syncope_. This term, which applies to symptoms as | diverse as sneezing, laughing, asthma, or epileptic seizure, is borrowed from | music: 'The queen of rhythm, syncope is also the mother of _dissonance_; it | is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive discord...Attack and | haven, collision; a fragment of the beat disappears, and of this | disappearance, rhythm is born.'" | Substitute Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry | of great verve and elegance. | | Tom Beckett | ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:12:18 +0200 Reply-To: kepa.kervinen@pp.inet.fi Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Subject: xStream #2 online Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit xStream -- Issue #2 xStream Issue #2 is online. It consists three different magazines: 1. Regular: Works from 5 poets 2. Autoissue: Poems generated by computer from Issue #2 texts. 3. Collaborative: Joel Chace (poems) and Jukka-Pekka Kervinen (computer-processed variations). Submissions for Issue #3 are welcome. Submissions to xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi. Sincerely, Jukka-Pekka Kervinen Editor xStream WWW: http://www.geocities.com/xstreamezine Mirror: http://xstream.alturl.com email: xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:18:20 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Andrew Rathmann wrote: Yet we are left unsure about the poet's own relation to these bits and pieces (an uncertainty we never feel in Howe's work, Oh really? Signed, (i guess) they.... ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:15:16 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: mIEKAL aND Subject: Earle Brown 1926-2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I think in colors. I think in masses and colors and planes. I don't start to write a piece of music with a twelve tone row or something like that, or even coming up with a melody and then trying to figure out what to do next. I start with a total concept. And then I try to fulfill what my imagination has already given me inside. Mozart said that he visualized a piece of music almost instantly. I do that and it takes me a long time to get it down on paper. I change it and change it and sometimes I can't even get it on paper. I've experienced that over and over. But once I start thinking about a new piece, I get a pretty clear picture of what I'm going to do. And then I go into the details. --Earle Brown in conversation First graphic notation (1952) First proportional notation (1952) Open Form concept (late 50s) Spontaneous direction of orchestra performance (1961) Earle Brown died this morning. I thought you might want to know. Petr Kotik, July 2, 2002 http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=312113 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:00:00 -0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Subject: Poetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Dear Murat, Didn't mean to put any thoughts in your mouth, but was responding to the fact that a number of your posts seemed to have as their agon, Language Poetry, as in today's listing: "I believe Language school poetics is a hindrance to the younger generations of poets writing today -even to those who like, appreciate or admire this poetry. My ideas relate to, speak to that struggle, though in years I am older than they are. I believe poetry today must find a completely new sets of references (less French/European, less word/literature bound), more Asian, more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a new beginning, that is, create a new template." By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with this--if it is indeed the case for some poets--but I wouldn't want to universalize the/any medicine. In my critique, some years back in Sagetrieb ("Avant-garde Propellants in the Machine Made of Words") where I discussed some of the problems with the underpinnings and practices of the movement/moment (among other things), I proposed the idea of a poetics--also rooted in Benjamin's thought--of counter-continuities. "Aspects of Poetics," a much newer piece, was written after reflecting on a number of more recent things, the quarrels on this list some years ago, partly emanating from the Apex of the M and generational disputes, the anxieties (maybe not of influence) expressed at the NYU conference of young poets (in the late 90s--one of the organizers was Rob Fitterman), poetry and poetics scuttlebutt. The second half of that essay isn't up yet, but its basic idea is to suggest seeing poetics from an "as if" or "phantomological" perspective--less heavy-handed, less investment-oriented. My own perspective on poetics, which I acknowledge as solely my own blundering via negativa and not meant to be prescriptive, derives from my Western-Jewish interests and my Eastern proto-buddhist inclinations. I suppose, if it has an external rubric, it comes out of Deleuze and Guattari's remark in "Toward a Minor Literature": "How may styles or genres or literary movement, even very small ones, have only one single dream: to assume a major function in language, to offer themselves as a sort of state language, an official language....Create the opposite dream: know how to create a becoming-minor (Is there hope for philosophy, which for a long time has been an official referential genre? Let us profit from this moment in which antiphilosphy is trying to be a language of power.) (p27) Where appropriate, substitute the word "poetics" for the word "philosophy" to get my drift. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:53:35 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <000d01c223b7$945ceb20$661a86d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Lawrence Upton writes in, agreeing with Tom Beckett's post: <"...it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born." Substitute Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry of great verve and elegance> I reply: I've been happy following this thread along with the other threads this week, as they seem to be leading toward the same basic question(-ing) of "evaluative" criticism. It's good to have a specific text that these issues can play off of. What troubles me, however, is how there doesn't seem to be a very specific counter argument to Andrew Rathmann's initial, negative, reading. (Since that is what he was being called to task for.) And here, I only have a question (not intended to be a loaded question): If a poet's work can be very well described by taking the description of another and switching names, then what is original, and of value, about this poet? I still remain interested in finding that out. Best, JGallaher ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:07:13 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 1:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: > And here, I only have a question (not intended to be a loaded > question): If a poet's work can be very well described by taking the > description of another and switching names, then what is original, and > of value, about this poet? I still remain interested in finding that out. > > If there was a lack of originality in switching names, that lack was mine. I, Tom Beckett, did that in a shorthand way of trying to show something of what I see in Wolsak's work. My limitations are notorious but you seem to be confusing an approach to the work with the work being discussed. _Pen Chants_ is quite original and innovative but not paraphrasable. The Cliff Notes have yet to be written. Read _Pen Chants_. Or consult any of the various links noted in previous posts to get a glimmer. It's worth the look. It's worth saying out loud. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:21:30 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <181.a9c3660.2a573a51@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Tom Beckett writes: I reply: True, a good reply. It brings to my mind the "always already" aspect of individual poems . . . how poets desire to get out from underneath the totalizing aspects of any poetics (even ones they've written), while critics (reviewers, etc) desire to define them into such a structure. There probably is no way out of this? As we need to talk of poetry . . . otherwise we'd have to pass by in silence. And we're not a very silent bunch. Best, JGallaher J Gallaher Metaphors Be With You . . . ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:08:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Great Auk Poem MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Great Auk Poem awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >= i NF; = i ( for awk: front:2: ^ syntax error awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >= i NF; = i ( for awk: front:2: ^ syntax error awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >= i NF; = i ( for awk: front:2: ^ syntax error front > back back -f awk k7% zz > back front -f awk k8% for ( i = NF; i >= 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: error syntax ^ front:2: awk: for ( i = NF; i >= 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: error syntax ^ front:2: awk: for ( i = NF; i >= 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: error syntax ^ front:2: awk: _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:19:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/5/02 2:22:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: > how poets desire to get out from underneath > the totalizing aspects of any poetics (even ones they've written), while > critics (reviewers, etc) desire to define them into such a structure Let's be clear, I have no interest in trying to define Wolsak's work into a structure. I imported a vocabulary from an acknowledged source by way of substitution. This wasn't Wolsak's methodology, it was mine. It kind of worries me how you generalize about poets and critic. Poets desire any number of things in re: poetics. Worries about totalization strike me as being after the fact of the poem. Damn, at least I hope so. Too much textual anxiety leads to performance problems, yes? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 16:00:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes. I've always found working from theory can wilt a cursor. In theory, the work should inspire a new theory to explain it. Vernon > In a message dated 7/5/02 2:22:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: > > > . Worries about totalization strike me as being after the fact of the poem. Damn, at least I hope so. Too much textual > anxiety leads to performance problems, yes? > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:55:41 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Recent poetry is often said to exhibit formal diversity, and observation bears this out. Nevertheless, from the generalizing perspective of poetics we see that at any given time a limited number of conventions will dominate practice. In my readings I've been trying to focus on poets who show promise of resisting that domination and pushing beyond the approved modes, even if, at the same time, they also exemplify them. At the risk of being classified by my classifications (and judged by my judgments), I've tried to spell out some of these modes: 1. The mode that satirizes capitalist society by ridiculing its idioms, slogans, jingles, jargons, sound bites, etc. The pun is a weapon in this war, since it undercuts the jargon with pointedly irrelevant meanings. Also in the arsenal are the line break, the creative misspelling, and various other typographical hijinks, since they do simulated violence to officially sanctioned language. Cabri is the best satirist within this mode, which, despite its ethos of guerrilla critique, is (like all satire) fundamentally conservative. But Cabri's wit often lures him to write past and beyond his sense of righteousness, thus transcending mere satire. 2. The mode of Stein. Its attraction for younger poets is that it relieves the burden of having to load each line with maximum ore. It frees the poet from flashy writing and makes available the quieter resources of variation and revision. Stein's way of writing was so vacuous, so deadly, that it could mean only one thing: this was written by Stein. Yet in Spahr's work the mode affords a constructive way to assemble large meanings out of small bare statements grounded in a communally agreed-upon reality. Lu's prose is also tangentially connected to the Steinian manner in its plainness and avoidance of affect, but Lu seems too interested in ideas, individuals, and experiences to be a true resident of the great Steinian void. 3. The performative mode. Here the dominant strain is New York School only more prickly. E.g, Minnis saying she wants to wear hot pants and rest a boot on the back of a man's neck. Also Wolff's "arch dolefulness" and gothicism (though these two poets are actually quite dissimilar.) This mode is superficially related to the speech-based lyricism of the workshops. It differs in its refusal of easy poignancy and in its flamboyant sense of humor. Its practitioners want to give immediate pleasure, not make demands on the reader's sympathies. O'Leary is somewhere in this part of the forest, too, for though his work contains a good deal of Poundian scholarship, it also dramatizes a sensibility and wants to create excitement for the reader. 4. Neo-romantic fragmentary lyricism. Its diction invokes traditional notions of lyric intensity, but it avoids linking those notions into coherent statements, presumably so as not to commit the infraction of appearing to be a "subject." Syntax is shunned. The poet conceals herself behind a screen of beautiful fragments. Wolsak, with her keen ear for extravagant language. Each of these writers is doing something new and good. Now back to concrete examples... ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:55:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I didn't write that; Tom Beckett did. A counter argument had not occurred to me. A well-argued negative case would be something else; but, until the case against the book is made properly, there is nothing with which to differ. This is where I came in to the poetry "world" in UK where appreciation of poetry was deemed to be pursued by demolition jobs spoken in such a way that I and everyone else was deemed to agree - "we see that...", with protest ignored - often based on incomplete or spurious arguments and assumptions. In saying "What he said" of Tom Beckett's post, I was acknowledging and furthering the appropriateness and wit of his post and my inadequacy. I could easily have written " _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry of great verve and elegance", but I didn't think to; as soon as I saw it in Tom Beckett's post, I found something I already knew to have been expressed and I wanted to support it. I did not intend to suggest that Wolsak's book is adequately dealt with thereby. What is original in a poet may well be other than much of what is of value; and I don't think that we should conflate the two though they surely overlap. It is an assumption that originality is THE thing. We must be careful of such assumptions. What appears original now may not appear so in the future. Nor is originality necessarily to be desired. The perception of originality can easily be the flipside of that rather suspect temporal-hierarchical approach which the reviewer in question appears to favour I pointed to the assumptions in _a style that is accretive and tonally mixed, rather than finished and coherent._ and in _Imagine trying to use the words "love" or "forever" in a speech-based lyric poem. Impossible."_ Both these assumptions seem to be repeated in the latest _The poet conceals herself behind a screen of beautiful fragments. Wolsak, with her keen ear for extravagant language._, which is why I mention then again. I have no reason to doubt that Andrew Rathman is an excellent fellow... I trust you all in usa feel thoroughly julyfourthed - here it seems to have been raining for most of my life L ----- Original Message ----- From: "J Gallaher" To: Sent: 05 July 2002 18:53 Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ | Lawrence Upton writes in, agreeing with Tom Beckett's post: | | <"...it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive | discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat | disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born." Substitute | Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry | of great verve and elegance> ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:38:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sackcrete ne plus ultra de concrete or sack Crete sacre Coeur du jour du jour mais non nevermore por favor encore father forgive me for I have sunned too much aujourdhui merci mercy et TV Bush says baseball is another branch of the armed services to be forearmed is to be forewarned in NJ we say fo ward wonder does swimming in chlorinated water whiten one's teeth addle one's eggs? sm. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:41:19 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit sorry about that rain apres the fourth the corn is as high as an elephants eye especially sm. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:14:05 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Close reading close readings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It's nice that Andrew is serializing these close readings (I like the project and its recurrence): it provides a recurrent, intermittent feature to the List, one of a different type than the vaguer but necessary opinionation and merchandise/reading promotion, --- sort of like television commericals or public service announcements interrupting regular programming. Brian Kim Stefans used to post "micro-reviews" of books on-List, similarly. One risk is that it can seem like "practice" for grown-up review-writing elsewhere, as Stefans indeed "graduated" to stop posting such here and publishing reviews in the likes of The Boston Review. Consistent with Andrews' stated endorsement of on-line poetry, he helpfully is relying on URL-trailable examples. But it's good, too, that Lawrence Upton takes Andrew to task for the somewhat gratuitous, casual assertions. (Then some Punch and Judy head-bopping!) Especially as one of the main features of these close readings, proceeding out of their over-all departure from the general rule of dialogue/symposium that governs the List, is to ignore any subsequent dialogue they spur (most of the close readings have been trailed by responses that Andrew does not answer ["when the girls came out to play Georgie Porgie ran away"-ism]), some of which replies, like the one about drag and blackface, are more "potent," memorable and volatile than the close readings themselves. But given the ambivalence toward criticism that keeps variously expressing itself on the List, criticism itself should not be allowed to escape with its own transparencies and subterfuges, better in turn that it too should be subjected to close reading, to determine how its stylistic prerogatives succeed in maintaining a power position over the text in question (the real outcome of Barthes' "Death of the Author" criticism, despite the earlier misinterpretations and objectionable gay-bashing that passed, like the attack on drag, unchallenged here ["Barthes, a frustrated gay writer, had to force himself into the critic-closet & his revenge was . . .", "while Foucault went to SF for the actual jouissance of MS, with unhappily lethal results]: the post-authorial critic is revealed and self-confessed to be a repertoire of rhetorical tropes, too. The "good" critic, like Barthes, should deconstruct himself, simultaneously). Tomorrow, I'll go on a diet and eat only macrobiotic snacks, make parfaits using Rice Dream recipes. It interests me, as someone who has published a handful of criticism/reviews that I vainfully pride myself upon, how the close readings (narrowly?) imitate a particular stripe of review-writing, readings that may be "close" but that are unadventurous in their style, reproducing a mode of extant criticism rather than wrenching after an innovative approach to the very role of critic itself. Reviews are a genre and the genre characteristics assert themselves with unconscious force, I'm all too aware: thus, glib cleverness like "have her persimmons and eat them too". ["Eat"? Did someone say "eat"?] Some others (like Lisa Samuels' "deformative criticism" or Benjamin Friedlander's tracings over previous criticism in ~Qui Parle,~ or the sort of neo-criticism that ~Telling It Slants~ advertises itself on, etc. . . . or even Tom Beckett's fleeting use of Tracing Paper criticism) take the interesting gauntlet of criticism to be that the critic now needs to depart from pre-designated and adopted modes as much as the poets under study. In a book like ~A Wild Salience,~ essays about Rae Armantrout, it even seems that "poets' criticism" equals the poems under discussion themselves in obscurity. My chest is covered with a Hansel and Gretel trail of snack food, such as Cracker Jacks and Wheat Thins, handfuls of General Mills cereals, that I stuff my mouth with, gluttonously chomping, chomping as I type with my "free" hand, rolling along the floor to the scale to weigh myself again: yep, over 600 lb. This familiar shadow of established critical tactics in the close readings, or sense of deja-vu (deja-lire), is there but somewhat difficult to pinpoint in the close readings --- a tendency toward, as Lawrence objected, unsubstantiated generalization; a structure that begins with an ~in media res~ assertion of either a question ("Why has the pun become so ubiquitous a device . . . ?"; "Who said the lyric speaker was dead?"), the proverbs of a canonical hero ("Heidegger says something to the effect . . ."), an imaginary controversy ("Language writing's censorship of the individual voice", "The works of a number of younger poets, especially post-MFA poets, reflect a desire to get out of the workshop mode") that concerns itself with surveying, in fact, ~not~ the close reading of a single poem but continually treating poets as a sort of flock, multitude, concerned with what ~many~ poets are doing and then deducing down from that bird's-eye view, ---or such, which introduction becomes the pretext for a loosely drawn "issue" or ersatz critical thought which the close reading is then played off of (so that the tension of the close reading is displaced onto how the text addresses that straw dog issue, defusing the protagonist-antagonist relation between poet and critic, . . . a checkmate that still, as in provoking Lawrence's objection, filters through [pyoo?]). But the general ~flavor~ that is left, and that is so familiar from prior criticism, is the disappearance act of the close reader into a semi-objectivized stance, an impersonalization, ironically, at the same time as taking exception with the de-personalized poetic mode. Compare, instead, other critical (earlier) modes, such as Melville's ~Hawthorne and His Mosses~ [title??], for example, where the critical posture was effusive, rapturous, even eroticized enthusiasm and self-depiction (Melville portraying himself as chancing upon the book and reading it lying down in hay in a barn or open field), or Pound's schizo-critical correspondences, which critiqued by frothing at the mouth. The movement toward feminist "personal criticism" called that impersonal façade "Archimidean" (in the sense of: give me a point outside the world and I will be able to move the world with a lever), and regarded it as untrustworthy because it erases its basis in gender, class, and such. Later, I can eat a Beef Jerky Yum. Salty meat snacks. (http://www.unclechucksbestbeefjerky.com/ http://www.primecountry.com.au/ http://www.texasbestjerky.com/ http://www.wildwestjerky.co.uk/ http://www.acmebrand.com/ http://www.somethingsmokin.com/ http://www.vermonter.com/beefjerky/ http://www.azjacks.com/ http://www.jerkyusa.com/). Curiously, the close readings are able to keep the pressure of re-personalization stifled for only so long, and they habitually end with striking frequency (unconscious self-imitation) on a valedictory sentence where the strain it takes to keep "I" out of the picture falters and the first person (singular or plural) re-enters only to depart, much like the similar, well-known habit of pronouns at the closing line of a John Ashbery poem ["I promise the sun was a switch, or tickler", "if we should ever get to know them", "We may live more patently . . .", "I think / the theme created itself . . .", etc., etc., etc., from ~Can You Hear, Little Birdie~ or elsewhere]. Rathmann close reading closing sentences, after an otherwise "I"-hygenicized critical screen: "I myself think her refusals of solemnity pay off in many cases", "At least we can see . . .", "I think poetry is better served by Option #2", "I wonder if Wolff will become more song-like". __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:25:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Poetics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Michael, Interesting, I just finished reading Deleuze'st wo film books (movement image and time image). I agree with one thing you are saying and deleuse also suggesting: how to project a point of view (e.g. poetics) while avoiding it to become an authoritative point of view. That's possible, it seems to be, by constantly being on guard -maybe by undercutting what one has staked out- a continuum of beginnings. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 03:22:43 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Poetics MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Michael Heller wrote of 'becoming minor' and Murat calls for 'a continuum of beginnings' which would be more 'Asian, more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a new beginning, that is, create a new template." This set me thinking of a review I read about a month back by Sven Birkerts in the NYTimes BR of the more 'mainstream' Jorie Graham's latest which was appreciate but critical of what he felt was her 'tentativeness' and leads him to 'question the viability of poetry as an instrument of philosophy...the disappearance of the perceived thing or the felt experience into the inconclusive enactments of process points to a dead end.' Whatever you think of Graham's work it does seem to me that this 'criticism' is perhaps missing the point here in that the poetic focus on process is in fact the type of poetics (impelled by poets) that is needed. tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:34:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I TELL TRUTH no under not i'm god o' nation no under not i'm flag no under not i'm i god under country no got i god over religion no got i mandate war-time it love i'll care health gimme anywhere it love don't here it love don't been never afghanistan know don't i transportation education gimme forever fries the loved everyone pakistan islam into fries poured they kabul to god no code secret the about you told i code secret in this writing i'm up god no valleys in god no mountains in god no mounds shell in anywhere anywhere country no inside god no outside god no there down god no there you but I AM STILL STUPID BAD WRITER _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 01:30:30 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: Some Preliminary Conclusions In-Reply-To: <174.acedf16.2a57961a@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I love this! Have you read Liz Waldner? She writes a little bit like this, at least in "A Point is That Which has No Part" -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Sheila Massoni Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 8:39 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions Sackcrete ne plus ultra de concrete or sack Crete sacre Coeur du jour du jour mais non nevermore por favor encore father forgive me for I have sunned too much aujourdhui merci mercy et TV Bush says baseball is another branch of the armed services to be forearmed is to be forewarned in NJ we say fo ward wonder does swimming in chlorinated water whiten one's teeth addle one's eggs? sm. ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:18:35 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Close reading close readings In-Reply-To: <20020706031405.55106.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jeffrey Jullich wrote: ...(the real > outcome of Barthes' "Death of the Author" criticism, > despite the earlier misinterpretations and > objectionable gay-bashing that passed, like the attack > on drag, unchallenged here ["Barthes, a frustrated gay > writer, had to force himself into the critic-closet & > his revenge was . . .", "while Foucault went to SF > for the actual jouissance of MS, with unhappily lethal > results] No gay-bashing or attack on drag in my description of the French scene of the 50ies & 60ies. Maybe that's why it went "unchallenged here"? i.e. no one, except you, took it as such. To the contrary: the point being that the late sixties sexpol movements started to let gays (including B & F), among other oppressed groups, come out & breathe & live more freely, while opening a range of theoretical & practical areas of investigation. (BTW. there is a fascinating little "roman à clef" on that period called "Le Bordel Andalou" by Georges Lapassade, published in the early 1970ies by Ediitons de l'Herne, but as far as I know not translated into English.) Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:41:09 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. Think twice, let's all write. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:53:21 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT sounds good to me but maybe we can write and then think and then think again? the first think is poetics? the twice think is criticism? this is a poem. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Beckett" To: Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 10:41 AM Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. > > Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. > > Think twice, let's all write. > > Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:21:59 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Roberto bedoya's current address anyone? yrs Todd Baron ---------- >From: Automatic digest processor >To: Recipients of POETICS digests >Subject: POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) >Date: Fri, Jul 5, 2002, 9:01 PM > > There are 16 messages totalling 695 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. xStream #2 online > 2. Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > 3. Earle Brown 1926-2002 > 4. Poetics (2) > 5. Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ (7) > 6. Great Auk Poem > 7. Some Preliminary Conclusions (2) > 8. Close reading close readings > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:12:18 +0200 > From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen > Subject: xStream #2 online > > > > xStream -- Issue #2 > > > > > > xStream Issue #2 is online. It consists three different magazines: > > > 1. Regular: Works from 5 poets > > 2. Autoissue: Poems generated by computer from Issue #2 texts. > > 3. Collaborative: Joel Chace (poems) and Jukka-Pekka Kervinen > (computer-processed variations). > > > Submissions for Issue #3 are welcome. > > > Submissions to xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi. > > > Sincerely, > > Jukka-Pekka Kervinen > Editor > xStream > WWW: http://www.geocities.com/xstreamezine > Mirror: http://xstream.alturl.com > email: xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:18:20 -0700 > From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino > Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > > Andrew Rathmann wrote: > > Yet we are left unsure > about the poet's own relation to these bits and pieces (an uncertainty we > never feel in Howe's work, > > > > Oh really? > Signed, > (i guess) they.... > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:15:16 -0500 > From: mIEKAL aND > Subject: Earle Brown 1926-2002 > > I think in colors. I think in masses and colors and planes. I don't star= t > to write a piece of music with a twelve tone row or something like that, = or > even coming up with a melody and then trying to figure out what to do nex= t. > I start with a total concept. And then I try to fulfill what my imaginat= ion > has already given me inside. Mozart said that he visualized a piece of m= usic > almost instantly. I do that and it takes me a long time to get it down o= n > paper. I change it and change it and sometimes I can't even get it on pa= per. > I've experienced that over and over. But once I start thinking about a n= ew > piece, I get a pretty clear picture of what I'm going to do. And then I = go > into the details. > > --Earle Brown in conversation > > > First graphic notation (1952) > First proportional notation (1952) > Open Form concept (late 50s) > Spontaneous direction of orchestra performance (1961) > > Earle Brown died this morning. > > > I thought you might want to know. > > > > Petr Kotik, July 2, 2002 > > > > http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=3D312113 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:00:00 -0100 > From: Michael Heller > Subject: Poetics > > Dear Murat, > > Didn't mean to put any thoughts in your mouth, but was responding to the > fact that a number of your posts seemed to have as their agon, Language > Poetry, as in today's listing: > > "I believe Language school poetics is a hindrance to the younger generati= ons > of poets writing today -even to those who like, appreciate or admire this > poetry. My ideas relate to, speak to that struggle, though in years I am > older than they are. I believe poetry today must find a completely new se= ts > of references (less French/European, less word/literature bound), more As= ian, > more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or > "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a= new > beginning, that is, create a new template." > > By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with this--if it is indeed the > case for some poets--but I wouldn't want to universalize the/any > medicine. In my critique, some years back in Sagetrieb ("Avant-garde > Propellants in the Machine Made of Words") where I discussed some of the > problems with the underpinnings and practices of the movement/moment (amo= ng > other things), I proposed the idea of a poetics--also rooted in Benjamin'= s > thought--of counter-continuities. "Aspects of Poetics," a much newer > piece, was written after reflecting on a number of more recent things, t= he > quarrels on this list some years ago, partly emanating from the Apex of t= he > M and generational disputes, the anxieties (maybe not of influence) > expressed at the NYU conference of young poets (in the late 90s--one of t= he > organizers was Rob Fitterman), poetry and poetics scuttlebutt. The secon= d > half of that essay isn't up yet, but its basic idea is to suggest seeing > poetics from an "as if" or "phantomological" perspective--less > heavy-handed, less investment-oriented. My own perspective on poetics, > which I acknowledge as solely my own blundering via negativa and not mean= t > to be prescriptive, derives from my Western-Jewish interests and my Easte= rn > proto-buddhist inclinations. I suppose, if it has an external rubric, i= t > comes out of Deleuze and Guattari's remark in "Toward a Minor Literature= ": > "How may styles or genres or literary movement, even very small ones, hav= e > only one single dream: to assume a major function in language, to offer > themselves as a sort of state language, an official language....Create th= e > opposite dream: know how to create a becoming-minor (Is there hope for > philosophy, which for a long time has been an official referential > genre? Let us profit from this moment in which antiphilosphy is trying t= o > be a language of power.) (p27) Where appropriate, substitute the word > "poetics" for the word "philosophy" to get my drift. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:53:35 -0500 > From: J Gallaher > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > Lawrence Upton writes in, agreeing with Tom Beckett's post: > > <"...it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive > discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat > disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born." Substitute > Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry > of great verve and elegance> > > I reply: > > I've been happy following this thread along with the other threads this > week, as they seem to be leading toward the same basic question(-ing) > of "evaluative" criticism. It's good to have a specific text that these > issues can play off of. > > What troubles me, however, is how there doesn't seem to be a very > specific counter argument to Andrew Rathmann's initial, negative, > reading. (Since that is what he was being called to task for.) > > And here, I only have a question (not intended to be a loaded > question): If a poet's work can be very well described by taking the > description of another and switching names, then what is original, and > of value, about this poet? I still remain interested in finding that out. > > Best, > JGallaher > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:07:13 EDT > From: Tom Beckett > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > In a message dated 7/5/02 1:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: > > >> And here, I only have a question (not intended to be a loaded >> question): If a poet's work can be very well described by taking the >> description of another and switching names, then what is original, and >> of value, about this poet? I still remain interested in finding that out= . >> >> > If there was a lack of originality in switching names, that lack was mine= . > I, Tom Beckett, did that in a shorthand way of trying to show something o= f > what I see in Wolsak's work. My limitations are notorious but you seem t= o be > confusing an approach to the work with the work being discussed. _Pen > Chants_ is quite original and innovative but not paraphrasable. The Clif= f > Notes have yet to be written. Read _Pen Chants_. Or consult any of the > various links noted in previous posts to get a glimmer. It's worth the l= ook. > It's worth saying out loud. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:21:30 -0500 > From: J Gallaher > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > Tom Beckett writes: > > the work being discussed. _Pen Chants_ is quite original and > innovative but not paraphrasable.> > > I reply: > > True, a good reply. It brings to my mind the "always already" aspect > of individual poems . . . how poets desire to get out from underneath > the totalizing aspects of any poetics (even ones they've written), while > critics (reviewers, etc) desire to define them into such a structure. > There probably is no way out of this? As we need to talk of poetry . . . > otherwise we'd have to pass by in silence. And we're not a very silent > bunch. > > Best, > JGallaher > J Gallaher > > Metaphors Be With You . . . > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:08:41 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: Great Auk Poem > > Great Auk Poem > > > awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >=3D i NF; =3D i ( for > awk: front:2: ^ syntax error > awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >=3D i NF; =3D i ( for > awk: front:2: ^ syntax error > awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >=3D i NF; =3D i ( for > awk: front:2: ^ syntax error > front > back back -f awk k7% > zz > back front -f awk k8% > for ( i =3D NF; i >=3D 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: > error syntax ^ front:2: awk: > for ( i =3D NF; i >=3D 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: > error syntax ^ front:2: awk: > for ( i =3D NF; i >=3D 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: > error syntax ^ front:2: awk: > > > _ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:19:23 EDT > From: Tom Beckett > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > In a message dated 7/5/02 2:22:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: > > >> how poets desire to get out from underneath >> the totalizing aspects of any poetics (even ones they've written), while >> critics (reviewers, etc) desire to define them into such a structure > > Let's be clear, I have no interest in trying to define Wolsak's work int= o a > structure. I imported a vocabulary from an acknowledged source by way of > substitution. This wasn't Wolsak's methodology, it was mine. > > It kind of worries me how you generalize about poets and critic. Poets de= sire > any number of things in re: poetics. Worries about totalization strike me= as > being after the fact of the poem. Damn, at least I hope so. Too much text= ual > anxiety leads to performance problems, yes? > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 16:00:49 -0400 > From: Vernon Frazer > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > Yes. I've always found working from theory can wilt a cursor. In theory, = the > work should inspire a new theory to explain it. > > Vernon > > > >> In a message dated 7/5/02 2:22:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: >> >> >> . Worries about totalization strike me as being after the fact of the > poem. Damn, at least I hope so. Too much textual > anxiety leads to > performance problems, yes? >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:55:41 -0600 > From: Andrew Rathmann > Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions > > Recent poetry is often said to exhibit formal diversity, and observation > bears this out. Nevertheless, from the generalizing perspective of poeti= cs > we see that at any given time a limited number of conventions will domina= te > practice. In my readings I've been trying to focus on poets who show > promise of resisting that domination and pushing beyond the approved mode= s, > even if, at the same time, they also exemplify them. At the risk of bein= g > classified by my classifications (and judged by my judgments), I've trie= d > to spell out some of these modes: > > 1. The mode that satirizes capitalist society by ridiculing its idioms, > slogans, jingles, jargons, sound bites, etc. The pun is a weapon in this > war, since it undercuts the jargon with pointedly irrelevant meanings. > Also in the arsenal are the line break, the creative misspelling, and > various other typographical hijinks, since they do simulated violence to > officially sanctioned language. Cabri is the best satirist within this > mode, which, despite its ethos of guerrilla critique, is (like all satire= ) > fundamentally conservative. But Cabri's wit often lures him to write pas= t > and beyond his sense of righteousness, thus transcending mere satire. > > 2. The mode of Stein. Its attraction for younger poets is that it reliev= es > the burden of having to load each line with maximum ore. It frees the po= et > from flashy writing and makes available the quieter resources of variatio= n > and revision. Stein's way of writing was so vacuous, so deadly, that it > could mean only one thing: this was written by Stein. Yet in Spahr's wor= k > the mode affords a constructive way to assemble large meanings out of sma= ll > bare statements grounded in a communally agreed-upon reality. Lu's prose > is also tangentially connected to the Steinian manner in its plainness an= d > avoidance of affect, but Lu seems too interested in ideas, individuals, a= nd > experiences to be a true resident of the great Steinian void. > > 3. The performative mode. Here the dominant strain is New York School on= ly > more prickly. E.g, Minnis saying she wants to wear hot pants and rest a > boot on the back of a man's neck. Also Wolff's "arch dolefulness" and > gothicism (though these two poets are actually quite dissimilar.) This > mode is superficially related to the speech-based lyricism of the > workshops. It differs in its refusal of easy poignancy and in its > flamboyant sense of humor. Its practitioners want to give immediate > pleasure, not make demands on the reader's sympathies. O'Leary is > somewhere in this part of the forest, too, for though his work contains a > good deal of Poundian scholarship, it also dramatizes a sensibility and > wants to create excitement for the reader. > > 4. Neo-romantic fragmentary lyricism. Its diction invokes traditional > notions of lyric intensity, but it avoids linking those notions into > coherent statements, presumably so as not to commit the infraction of > appearing to be a "subject." Syntax is shunned. The poet conceals herse= lf > behind a screen of beautiful fragments. Wolsak, with her keen ear for > extravagant language. > > Each of these writers is doing something new and good. Now back to > concrete examples... > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:55:36 +0100 > From: Lawrence Upton > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > I didn't write that; Tom Beckett did. > > A counter argument had not occurred to me. A well-argued negative case wo= uld > be something else; but, until the case against the book is made properly, > there is nothing with which to differ. > > This is where I came in to the poetry "world" in UK where appreciation of > poetry was deemed to be pursued by demolition jobs spoken in such a way t= hat > I and everyone else was deemed to agree - "we see that...", with protest > ignored - often based on incomplete or spurious arguments and assumptions= . > > In saying "What he said" of Tom Beckett's post, I was acknowledging and > furthering the appropriateness and wit of his post and my inadequacy. I > could easily have written " _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry of great > verve and elegance", but I didn't think to; as soon as I saw it in Tom > Beckett's post, I found something I already knew to have been expressed a= nd > I wanted to support it. > > I did not intend to suggest that Wolsak's book is adequately dealt with > thereby. > > What is original in a poet may well be other than much of what is of valu= e; > and I don't think that we should conflate the two though they surely > overlap. > > It is an assumption that originality is THE thing. We must be careful of > such assumptions. > > What appears original now may not appear so in the future. Nor is > originality necessarily to be desired. The perception of originality can > easily be the flipside of that rather suspect temporal-hierarchical appro= ach > which the reviewer in question appears to favour > > I pointed to the assumptions in _a style that is accretive and tonally > mixed, rather than finished and coherent._ and in _Imagine trying to use = the > words "love" or "forever" in a speech-based lyric poem. Impossible."_ > > Both these assumptions seem to be repeated in the latest _The poet concea= ls > herself behind a screen of beautiful fragments. Wolsak, with her keen ear > for extravagant language._, which is why I mention then again. > > I have no reason to doubt that Andrew Rathman is an excellent fellow... > > I trust you all in usa feel thoroughly julyfourthed - here it seems to ha= ve > been > raining for most of my life > > > L > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J Gallaher" > To: > Sent: 05 July 2002 18:53 > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > > | Lawrence Upton writes in, agreeing with Tom Beckett's post: > | > | <"...it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive > | discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat > | disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born." Substitute > | Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry > | of great verve and elegance> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:38:50 EDT > From: Sheila Massoni > Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions > > Sackcrete ne plus ultra de concrete or sack Crete sacre Coeur du jour du > jour mais non nevermore por favor encore father forgive me for I have sun= ned > too much aujourdhui merci mercy et TV Bush says baseball is another branc= h of > the armed services to be forearmed is to be forewarned in NJ we say fo wa= rd > wonder does swimming in chlorinated water whiten one's teeth addle one's > eggs? sm. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:41:19 EDT > From: Sheila Massoni > Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ > > sorry about that rain apres the fourth the corn is as high as an elephant= s > eye especially sm. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:14:05 -0700 > From: Jeffrey Jullich > Subject: Close reading close readings > > It's nice that Andrew is serializing these close > readings (I like the project and its recurrence): it > provides a recurrent, intermittent feature to the > List, one of a different type than the vaguer but > necessary opinionation and merchandise/reading > promotion, --- sort of like television commericals or > public service announcements interrupting regular > programming. Brian Kim Stefans used to post > "micro-reviews" of books on-List, similarly. One risk > is that it can seem like "practice" for grown-up > review-writing elsewhere, as Stefans indeed > "graduated" to stop posting such here and publishing > reviews in the likes of The Boston Review. Consistent > with Andrews' stated endorsement of on-line poetry, he > helpfully is relying on URL-trailable examples. But > it's good, too, that Lawrence Upton takes Andrew to > task for the somewhat gratuitous, casual assertions. > (Then some Punch and Judy head-bopping!) Especially > as one of the main features of these close readings, > proceeding out of their over-all departure from the > general rule of dialogue/symposium that governs the > List, is to ignore any subsequent dialogue they spur > (most of the close readings have been trailed by > responses that Andrew does not answer ["when the girls > came out to play Georgie Porgie ran away"-ism]), some > of which replies, like the one about drag and > blackface, are more "potent," memorable and volatile > than the close readings themselves. > > But given the ambivalence toward criticism that keeps > variously expressing itself on the List, criticism > itself should not be allowed to escape with its own > transparencies and subterfuges, better in turn that it > too should be subjected to close reading, to determine > how its stylistic prerogatives succeed in maintaining > a power position over the text in question (the real > outcome of Barthes' "Death of the Author" criticism, > despite the earlier misinterpretations and > objectionable gay-bashing that passed, like the attack > on drag, unchallenged here ["Barthes, a frustrated gay > writer, had to force himself into the critic-closet & > his revenge was . . .", "while Foucault went to SF > for the actual jouissance of MS, with unhappily lethal > results]: the post-authorial critic is revealed and > self-confessed to be a repertoire of rhetorical > tropes, too. The "good" critic, like Barthes, should > deconstruct himself, simultaneously). > > Tomorrow, I'll go on a diet and eat only macrobiotic > snacks, make parfaits using Rice Dream recipes. > > It interests me, as someone who has published a > handful of criticism/reviews that I vainfully pride > myself upon, how the close readings (narrowly?) > imitate a particular stripe of review-writing, > readings that may be "close" but that are > unadventurous in their style, reproducing a mode of > extant criticism rather than wrenching after an > innovative approach to the very role of critic itself. > Reviews are a genre and the genre characteristics > assert themselves with unconscious force, I'm all too > aware: thus, glib cleverness like "have her persimmons > and eat them too". ["Eat"? Did someone say "eat"?] > Some others (like Lisa Samuels' "deformative > criticism" or Benjamin Friedlander's tracings over > previous criticism in ~Qui Parle,~ or the sort of > neo-criticism that ~Telling It Slants~ advertises > itself on, etc. . . . or even Tom Beckett's fleeting > use of Tracing Paper criticism) take the interesting > gauntlet of criticism to be that the critic now needs > to depart from pre-designated and adopted modes as > much as the poets under study. In a book like ~A Wild > Salience,~ essays about Rae Armantrout, it even seems > that "poets' criticism" equals the poems under > discussion themselves in obscurity. > > My chest is covered with a Hansel and Gretel trail of > snack food, such as Cracker Jacks and Wheat Thins, > handfuls of General Mills cereals, that I stuff my > mouth with, gluttonously chomping, chomping as I type > with my "free" hand, rolling along the floor to the > scale to weigh myself again: yep, over 600 lb. > > This familiar shadow of established critical tactics > in the close readings, or sense of deja-vu > (deja-lire), is there but somewhat difficult to > pinpoint in the close readings --- a tendency toward, > as Lawrence objected, unsubstantiated generalization; > a structure that begins with an ~in media res~ > assertion of either a question ("Why has the pun > become so ubiquitous a device . . . ?"; "Who said the > lyric speaker was dead?"), the proverbs of a canonical > hero ("Heidegger says something to the effect . . ."), > an imaginary controversy ("Language writing's > censorship of the individual voice", "The works of a > number of younger poets, especially post-MFA poets, > reflect a desire to get out of the workshop mode") > that concerns itself with surveying, in fact, ~not~ > the close reading of a single poem but continually > treating poets as a sort of flock, multitude, > concerned with what ~many~ poets are doing and then > deducing down from that bird's-eye view, ---or such, > which introduction becomes the pretext for a loosely > drawn "issue" or ersatz critical thought which the > close reading is then played off of (so that the > tension of the close reading is displaced onto how the > text addresses that straw dog issue, defusing the > protagonist-antagonist relation between poet and > critic, . . . a checkmate that still, as in provoking > Lawrence's objection, filters through [pyoo?]). > > But the general ~flavor~ that is left, and that is so > familiar from prior criticism, is the disappearance > act of the close reader into a semi-objectivized > stance, an impersonalization, ironically, at the same > time as taking exception with the de-personalized > poetic mode. Compare, instead, other critical > (earlier) modes, such as Melville's ~Hawthorne and His > Mosses~ [title??], for example, where the critical > posture was effusive, rapturous, even eroticized > enthusiasm and self-depiction (Melville portraying > himself as chancing upon the book and reading it lying > down in hay in a barn or open field), or Pound's > schizo-critical correspondences, which critiqued by > frothing at the mouth. The movement toward feminist > "personal criticism" called that impersonal fa=E7ade > "Archimidean" (in the sense of: give me a point > outside the world and I will be able to move the world > with a lever), and regarded it as untrustworthy > because it erases its basis in gender, class, and > such. > > Later, I can eat a Beef Jerky Yum. Salty meat > snacks. > > (http://www.unclechucksbestbeefjerky.com/ > http://www.primecountry.com.au/ > http://www.texasbestjerky.com/ > http://www.wildwestjerky.co.uk/ > http://www.acmebrand.com/ > http://www.somethingsmokin.com/ > http://www.vermonter.com/beefjerky/ > http://www.azjacks.com/ > http://www.jerkyusa.com/). > > Curiously, the close readings are able to keep the > pressure of re-personalization stifled for only so > long, and they habitually end with striking frequency > (unconscious self-imitation) on a valedictory sentence > where the strain it takes to keep "I" out of the > picture falters and the first person (singular or > plural) re-enters only to depart, much like the > similar, well-known habit of pronouns at the closing > line of a John Ashbery poem ["I promise the sun was a > switch, or tickler", "if we should ever get to know > them", "We may live more patently . . .", "I think / > the theme created itself . . .", etc., etc., etc., > from ~Can You Hear, Little Birdie~ or elsewhere]. > > Rathmann close reading closing sentences, after an > otherwise "I"-hygenicized critical screen: "I myself > think her refusals of solemnity pay > off in many cases", "At least we can see . . .", "I > think poetry is better served by Option #2", "I wonder > if Wolff will become more song-like". > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free > http://sbc.yahoo.com > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:25:03 EDT > From: Murat Nemet-Nejat > Subject: Re: Poetics > > Michael, > > Interesting, I just finished reading Deleuze'st wo film books (movement i= mage > and time image). I agree with one thing you are saying and deleuse also > suggesting: how to project a point of view (e.g. poetics) while avoiding = it > to become an authoritative point of view. That's possible, it seems to be= , by > constantly being on guard -maybe by undercutting what one has staked out-= a > continuum of beginnings. > > Murat > > ------------------------------ > > End of POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) > ************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:16:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I couldn't have written my own minifesto better if I'd written it myself. Thanks,Tom. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Beckett" To: Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 11:41 AM Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. > > Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. > > Think twice, let's all write. > > Tom Beckett > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:42:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clai Rice Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructed languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems,=20 and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing. =20 Linguists, especially U.S.-trained linguists, generally find it easy to say what a sentence means, or that a particular string of words is or is not English. I find this particular professional skill very odd, and come to language poetry precisely because it seems to be made mostly of 'unEnglish'. =20 What makes something unEnglish is in fact not clear at all. I suspect that this is one of the two problems that define modern linguistic science (as per Kuhn's definition of 'normal science', the other problem being Plato's problem, the poverty of the stimulus, or, how can a child learn a language so well when it hears so few correct examples of that language). In one approach, something can be unEnglish but still be grammatically English: colorless green ideas sleep furiously. I find that a lot of language poetry can be described by this model: "I have backed up / into my silence / as inexhaustible as the sun / that calls a tip of candle / to its furnace" (F. Howe). A lot of non-language poetry also follows this model: thou still unravished bride of quietness... Likewise, something can be unEnglish by dispensing with grammatical coherence: "chaotic architect repudiate line Q confine lie link realm" (S. Howe). Again, you can find non-language poetry that can be described by this model as well (though not as easily, because strings that lack grammatical coherence are more readily judged to be nonsense--yet another contestable term). Within the term 'coherent semantic trajectory' I mean to include such examples of non-English, but only to the extent that they do not violate transparency or conventional understandability. I am not trying to assert that conventional understandability is something that exists or is possible, but that this is what most people mean when they say they 'understand' what has been written. Most language poetry that interests me does so because it seems to offer different qualities of understanding, redefines 'understanding'. Since we havn't yet devised a theory of langauge that accounts very well for conventional understandability, I wonder if we might make some headway by trying to account for other understandabilities. --Clai On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Mark DuCharme wrote: > >When language poetry dispenses with the coherent semantic trajectory > >associated with the standard transparent sentence, it also thereby > >discards the mechanism by which polysemy, homophony, etc. are recognized > >as puns in the narrow sense.... >=20 > >the > >writing appears as if meaning has emerged from the language itself rathe= r > >than having been "used" by someone to achieve a particular goal. >=20 >=20 > Which "language" poets are you referring to, who dispense "with the coher= ent > semantic trajectory"? Certainly not Lyn Hejinian, whom you quote. > Certainly not Ron Silliman, Bob Perelman, Carla Harryman, Rae Armantrout, > Ray DiPalma. These poets all dispense with coherent ~narrative~ > trajectory-- but that is something else again. Well, yes there is also > Bruce Andrews, whose works are often funnier (notice I didn't say "fun") > than one might expect. Yet even he undoubtedly is "using" language to > achieve his "goals." >=20 > (What is a ~semantic~ trajectory, anyway? Here I think you may mean > grammatical trajectory, unless you are thinking of the connotations of wo= rds > leading one to the other in an orderly fashion. All of these poets set > meanings ricocheting-- but that is also true of many poets you wouldn't > think of as langpos. Here we have to refer to semantic TRAJECTORIES in t= he > sense of not being limited to one). >=20 > As for a "natural (human) language," I don't believe I have encountered t= hat > beast. >=20 > Mark DuCharme >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > 'poetry because things say' >=20 > =97Bernadette Mayer >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm >=20 >=20 >=20 > http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm >=20 >=20 > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >=20 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:10:39 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Clai and Listers. This interests me and I concur in the main. Its maybe a "function" of language poetry to point to the problematic nature of meaning in so-called "comventional" literary writing or in fact in any language system or even in philosophy or say the question of whether music means anything: as one eg learns more about music I imagine that (to ceratain musicians or music teachers) to say that music may not mean anything or even that some may dont mean anything (apart from implying that what the musician adressed does is pointless) also asks the question: what kind of meaning and what is information, what does it mean when you say this "means" or I "understand". There was a young girl over here (NZ) Laura (forget her other name) whose was "precocious" and she wrote things like: Waiting under the bridge I understood it..... Things like that. Quite clever ..the young girl (she was only about 9 I think) was quite a "hit" but I think the parents wisely withdrew her from the public gaze for ther time being: but obviously she had a good understanding (!) of basic puns, liguistics etc and maybe is of great ability, I dont know. She may reappear and take the lit. world by storm, who knows... But that aside I concur ...I find it hard to differentiate what is not or is unEnglish: and writing or music can be "meaningful" without meaning anything that we can easily (if at all) transcribe into a "sentence" so "difficult" poetry is always mimicking the problem of knowledge: so the best or most interesting poetry paradoxically or expectably (maybe depending on one's temperament or training ) "resists understanding" at least, and is more or less absorptive, to use Bernstein's term. Which book does the Hoowe quote coome from I would be intersted to read it? Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clai Rice" To: Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 1:42 PM Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructed languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing. Linguists, especially U.S.-trained linguists, generally find it easy to say what a sentence means, or that a particular string of words is or is not English. I find this particular professional skill very odd, and come to language poetry precisely because it seems to be made mostly of 'unEnglish'. What makes something unEnglish is in fact not clear at all. I suspect that this is one of the two problems that define modern linguistic science (as per Kuhn's definition of 'normal science', the other problem being Plato's problem, the poverty of the stimulus, or, how can a child learn a language so well when it hears so few correct examples of that language). In one approach, something can be unEnglish but still be grammatically English: colorless green ideas sleep furiously. I find that a lot of language poetry can be described by this model: "I have backed up / into my silence / as inexhaustible as the sun / that calls a tip of candle / to its furnace" (F. Howe). A lot of non-language poetry also follows this model: thou still unravished bride of quietness... Likewise, something can be unEnglish by dispensing with grammatical coherence: "chaotic architect repudiate line Q confine lie link realm" (S. Howe). Again, you can find non-language poetry that can be described by this model as well (though not as easily, because strings that lack grammatical coherence are more readily judged to be nonsense--yet another contestable term). Within the term 'coherent semantic trajectory' I mean to include such examples of non-English, but only to the extent that they do not violate transparency or conventional understandability. I am not trying to assert that conventional understandability is something that exists or is possible, but that this is what most people mean when they say they 'understand' what has been written. Most language poetry that interests me does so because it seems to offer different qualities of understanding, redefines 'understanding'. Since we havn't yet devised a theory of langauge that accounts very well for conventional understandability, I wonder if we might make some headway by trying to account for other understandabilities. --Clai On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Mark DuCharme wrote: > >When language poetry dispenses with the coherent semantic trajectory > >associated with the standard transparent sentence, it also thereby > >discards the mechanism by which polysemy, homophony, etc. are recognized > >as puns in the narrow sense.... > > >the > >writing appears as if meaning has emerged from the language itself rather > >than having been "used" by someone to achieve a particular goal. > > > Which "language" poets are you referring to, who dispense "with the coherent > semantic trajectory"? Certainly not Lyn Hejinian, whom you quote. > Certainly not Ron Silliman, Bob Perelman, Carla Harryman, Rae Armantrout, > Ray DiPalma. These poets all dispense with coherent ~narrative~ > trajectory-- but that is something else again. Well, yes there is also > Bruce Andrews, whose works are often funnier (notice I didn't say "fun") > than one might expect. Yet even he undoubtedly is "using" language to > achieve his "goals." > > (What is a ~semantic~ trajectory, anyway? Here I think you may mean > grammatical trajectory, unless you are thinking of the connotations of words > leading one to the other in an orderly fashion. All of these poets set > meanings ricocheting-- but that is also true of many poets you wouldn't > think of as langpos. Here we have to refer to semantic TRAJECTORIES in the > sense of not being limited to one). > > As for a "natural (human) language," I don't believe I have encountered that > beast. > > Mark DuCharme > > > > > > > 'poetry because things say' > > -Bernadette Mayer > > > > > > http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm > > > _________________________________________________________________ > MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: > http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx > ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:14:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: (from J. Moxley) splendid splinter waved home.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To all Baseball/Poetry fans, In light of the passing of fellow San Diego native Ted Williams, I thought some of you might enjoy this little gem by the late Helena Bennett: Ted Will iams The last time an yone hit a bove four hundred world war two start ed. from _Narrative as Hell_ (an undated chapbook of the mid- to late-1980s) ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:18:40 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:42 PM -0400 7/6/02, Clai Rice wrote: >I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear >about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by >linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructed >languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, >and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as >those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing... where does yiddish fit into this? ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:25:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Chomsky: A language is a dialect with an army. Alan On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > At 9:42 PM -0400 7/6/02, Clai Rice wrote: > >I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear > >about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by > >linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructed > >languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, > >and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as > >those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing... > > where does yiddish fit into this? > Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:00:18 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed That's a good one, but Chomsky was actually not the first to say it. It's usually assigned to Uriel Weinreich, tho once when I did some web searching, I was unable to find anything that absolutely confirmed him as the first either. But I'm a lazy researcher. The full quip is "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." Kasey >Chomsky: A language is a dialect with an army. > >Alan > >On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > > > At 9:42 PM -0400 7/6/02, Clai Rice wrote: > > >I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear > > >about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by > > >linguists to distinguish something like English or French from >constructed > > >languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, > > >and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as > > >those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing... > > > > where does yiddish fit into this? > > > >Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt >Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html >Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm >CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com •• k. silem mohammad visiting asst prof of british & anglophone lit university of california santa cruz _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:38:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > > The full quip is "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy." > > Kasey > Hmm, I have heard this line as far as I can remember back -- but always as "A language is a dialect with an army" (or: "with guns", which is my own preferred version) but never with "a navy" -- but that could be because I'm from Luxembourg, & we are land-locked & don't have a Navy. In Luxembourg they finally upgraded "Letzeburgesch" from being a dialect to being a language. Oddly enough they abolished the army during the years they put together the dictionary of Letzeburgesch & standardized the spelling, which made the metamorphosis from Dialect to Language more salon-fähig; so in this case they took the literal guns away from the soldiers and gave them back metaphorically to the dialect. Well they kept a few armed men around as palace-guard -- to guard the Grand-duchess who is a Cubana & thus speaks primarily Spanish... Pierre ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 02:30:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: GOD TASTING YOUR GOD MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII GOD TASTING YOUR GOD I SPIT OUT GOD nation o' god i'm not under no TRUTH TELL I God Under Babes Tasting Rare god i got no country under god i i'm not under no flag i'm not under no about the secret code no god to kabul they mandate i got no religion over no god in valleys no god up i'm writing this in secret code i told you inside no country anywhere anywhere in shell mounds no god in mountains STUPID STILL AM I but you there no god down there no god outside no god yy mv yy; > zz 's/god/God/g' sed 48 yy pico yy; > zz /g' 's/a/ WRITER BAD > zz back -f -Fo awk GOD. UNDER NOT AM I WRITER. BAD A AM I zz pico zz; reserving re CaCl you. for dio GaGet i YOU. FOR GOD GET I yy; pico yy; READING ANYONE GOD ON STEPS THIS READING ANYONE etc.> God tasting your GOD. ON STEP I GOD ON SPIT I GOD ON SPITS THIS *//secret code at last translation of recent communique. I AM AFRAID FOR MY LIFE //* I SPIT OUT GOD _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2002 15:04:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Bertha Rogers Subject: JULY UPDATE NYS LITERARY CURATORS WEB SITE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear Friends, Welcome to the July issue of the revised New York State Literary Curators Web Site (http://www.nyslittree.org), where you will now find the Events and Organizations pages listed by region -- New York Metropolitan, Capital- Saratoga, Long Island, The Adirondacks, Finger Lakes, Hudson Valley, Thousand Islands-Seaway, Greater Niagara, The Catskills, Central Leatherstocking, and Chautaqua-Allegheny. At the top of these pages, as well as the Circuit Writers and Interstate Writers pages, are hypertext links designed to make the site more accessible. Brittney Schoonebeek, senior program administrator, is responsible for these changes, assisted by Michelle Naujeck. The revised Poulin Pages for small presses and literary periodicals will be in place by August. Please send, IN THE BODY OF YOUR EMAIL, NOT AS AN ATTACHMENT, your listings no later than the 20th of the month preceding the event. Happy Fourth, happy July, Bertha Rogers, Brittney Schoonebeek, Michelle Naujeck ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 21:24:23 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yiddish would be a natural language like any other "language" or a dialect: it is the language of German Jews and is a language in its own "right" so to speak as far as I know: what Clai is talking about I think is/are unLanguages if such exist...the areas of language between signing as in the semiotics she refers to and that realm of thought that is beyond normative grammar or syntax or syntax.....when we fall into a "brown study"....the nuances...the area of the limnal: or maybe a vision, a voice...something seeming to gesticulate at the periphreral of our vision: the seeming language of a waking dream...strangenesses. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maria Damon" To: Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 3:18 PM Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > At 9:42 PM -0400 7/6/02, Clai Rice wrote: > >I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear > >about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by > >linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructed > >languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, > >and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as > >those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing... > > where does yiddish fit into this? ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 08:08:09 -0400 Reply-To: ron.silliman@gte.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Subject: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable July 7, 2002 Kenneth Koch, 77, Poet of New York School, Dies By ALAN FEUER New York Times Kenneth Koch, a poet of the New York School whose work combined the sardonic wit of a borscht-belt comic, the erotic whimsy of a Surrealist painter and the gritty wisdom of a scared young soldier, died yesterday after a long battle with leukemia at his home in Manhattan. He was 77. Mr. Koch's literary career spanned more than 50 years and resulted in the publication of at least 30 volumes of poetry and plays whose linguistic exuberance and experimental zest were bested only by their omnivorous subject matter. He wrote elegies, parodies, Dadaist dramas and fragmented shards of loosely structured verse on a palette of topics that ranged from his father's furniture business in southern Ohio to Japanese baseball stars to the pleasures of eating lunch.=20 Mr. Koch (pronounced coke) was considered a founding member of the New York School, an avant-garde poetic movement that was forged in the Manhattan of the 1950's when the beer at the Cedar Tavern flowed as smoothly as the passionate talk about Abstract Expressionist art. He and his contemporaries =97 the poets, John Ashbery and Frank O'Hara, and the painters, Jane Freilicher and Larry Rivers =97 took up the brash, anti-establishment mantle of their beatnik predecessors, but with a more classically European touch and with less machismo and facial hair.=20 Later in life, Mr. Koch became well known as a professor of poetry, mainly at Columbia University, where he lectured on literature and inspired budding writers for nearly 40 years. He was a spontaneous, high-octane teacher who was not above leaping on to desks to prove a point and who, for many years, taught writing to grade-school children, claiming that poetry was as thrilling as stickball. Kenneth Jay Koch was born Feb. 27, 1925 in Cincinnati, Ohio, the son of Stuart Koch, who owned a furniture store, and Lillian Koch, who wrote amateur literary reviews. After graduating high school, he served in the Philippines during World War II, a harrowing experience that he did not translate into verse until the very end of his life. When the war ended, Mr. Koch enrolled at Harvard. He studied writing with the poet Delmore Schwartz and embarked on a lifelong friendship with Mr. Ashbery. By his own account, he was hungry for the poet's life but na=EFve about the art of making poems. "I was so dumb I thought = Yeats was pronounced Yeets," he said in an interview in 1977. "I think we may have been more conscious than many poets of the surface of the poem, and what was going on while we were writing and how we were using words," he said of the New York School in the same interview. "I don't think we saw any reason to resist humor in our poems." Indeed, Mr. Koch's poetry is at once lyrical and humorous, aching with emotion and achingly funny. He managed to write verse that is breathy and expansive in tone, yet still rooted in the American predilections for pop culture references and proper nouns. This is an excerpt from Mr. Koch's poem, "Thank You": The only thing I could publicize well would be my tooth, Which I could say came with my mouth and in a most engaging manner With my whole self, my body and including my mind, Spirits, emotions, spiritual essences, emotional substances, poetry, dreams, and lords Of my life, everything, all embraceleted with my tooth In a way that makes one wish to open the windows and scream "Hi!" to the heavens, And "Oh, come and take me away before I die in a minute!" "His great ability as a poet was to combine modernism and lyricism and to write poems that gave you a feeling as joyous as Whitman," said Ron Padgett, a former student of Mr. Koch's and a poet himself. Speaking of Mr. Koch's long poem, "The Duplications," one reviewer said it read like a collaboration between Lord Byron, Walt Disney, Frank Buck and Andre Breton. Collaboration was, in fact, a crucial part of Mr. Koch's art. He and Mr. Rivers, for instance, worked together on a series of painting-poems called "New York, 1950-1960" and "Post Cards." He also wrote the librettos to operas set to music by, among others, the composer Ned Rorem. Mr. Koch once told an interviewer that, as a child, he kept a little orange book named the "Scribble-in Book," which he filled with his sketches and musings. In high school, he set out to write what he called "obscene and angry" poems, which he showed to his junior-year English teacher, Katherine Lappa. Although he thought the verses would horrify Ms. Lappa, she told Mr. Koch =97 at least, as he recalled it =97 "That's exactly the way you should be feeling when you're 17 years old." This fall, two of his books will be issued posthumously =97 one contains many of his previously unpublished poems from the early 1950's, and the other is a gathering of new works. His most recent book was "New Addresses," a collection of apostrophes to abstract ideas like World War II and Judaism. He was a member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters and won several prizes over the course of his career, including the Bollingen Prize in 1995 and the Rebekah Johnson Bobbitt National Prize for Poetry in 1996. He was awarded three Fulbright scholarships and a National Endowment for the Arts grant. He is survived by his wife, Karen Koch; his daughter, Katherine Koch; and a grandson, Jesse Statman. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 08:24:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: the words "culture" and "religion" In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Fellow poeticists, I am conducting studies on the words "culture" and "religion." These two words seem to be bandied about with abandon these days, and I'm going to write an essay about what they *really* mean-- philologically, etymologically, in current use, etc. If anyone can point to resources or remembers a particularly relevant passage in a book they read, please share. "culture" "religion" -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:37:33 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Austinwja@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is sad news indeed. I have been an admirer of Koch's serendipity since high school. His more considered meditations are some of the most sparklingly fluid performances in the language. The planet will miss his presence, terribly. Best, Bill WilliamJamesAustin.com KojaPress.com Amazon.com BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 10:31:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tom, The first and second think could very well be poetics and criticism, but they could also be poems, depending on the temperament or inclination of the writer. Obviously, you've demonstrated that a poem can include poetics, or the process of working toward a poetics. Good. I like to keep things as open as possible. You realize, of course, that Frazer's Minifesto, a collaborative document in process, invites comparison with Shakespeare on the question of authorship. I find this flattering, but not without risk. Some scholars might look at our collaboration and attribute it to Christopher Marlowe. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Thomas Bell" To: Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 4:53 PM Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > sounds good to me but maybe we can write and then think and then think > again? > > the first think is poetics? > the twice think is criticism? > > this is a poem. > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Beckett" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 10:41 AM > Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > > > > Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. > > > > Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. > > > > Think twice, let's all write. > > > > Tom Beckett > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 09:40:55 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: <000c01c22598$15915d20$b34336d2@01397384> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 9:24 PM +1200 7/7/02, richard.tylr wrote: >Yiddish would be a natural language like any other "language" or a dialect: >it is the language of German Jews ... my query was partly tongue-in-cheek...also, it was mostly eastern european jews who spoke yiddish, not german jews, at least by the modern era... so gertrude was not a yiddish speaker but alice probably was... thanks all for the flurry of weinreich/chomsky/luxembourgish quips... ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 11:07:14 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Neighbors Subject: Re: Poetics In-Reply-To: <40.203c0e50.2a57bd0f@aol.com> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/enriched; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Murat and Michael: I'm excited to see Deleuze (and Guattari) being used in this conversation. The problem of, as Murat writes, "how to project a point of view (e.g. poetics) while avoiding it to become an authoritative point of view" is a good one to bring D&G to. Deleuze (especially useful for me in the Cinema vols and The Fold) is also relevant to the idea of "trajectories" which is a part of the "Puns" string. And I apologize in advance for the lack of detail in what follows -- there's lots more that could be said, and I would, given worlds enough. I've decided to just look at a couple specific comments instead of filling out more of what D&G alone and separately do (as I see it). I'm wondering about Murat's use of "being on guard" or "undercutting" what one has staked out" and "that is, create a new template" as ways to avoid the "authoritative point of view." And this by Michael: >The second >half of that essay isn't up yet, but its basic idea is to suggest seeing >poetics from an "as if" or "phantomological" perspective--less >heavy-handed, less investment-oriented. My own perspective on poetics, >which I acknowledge as solely my own blundering via negativa and not meant >to be prescriptive, derives from my Western-Jewish interests and my Eastern >proto-buddhist inclinations. Michael's phrasing is curious to me because you seem to be talking about two different approaches to poetics -- is this right? One which generalizes a point of view on poetics, and then your own "blundering" derived from your own interests (which sounds much more interesting than the first, by the way!). Is "less heavy-handed" a good thing -- how about extremely heavy-handed or not handed at all? What's the "less" about here and in terms of investment oriented? If a poetics can merely be "less" heavy-handed or investment-oriented, why have it? Why should a poetics seek to cover more than one's own momentary poetry? (I mean this as a real question). When can "official language" be used to undermine "official language" -- and can it. (Real questions, again). I'm thinking all of this in terms of becoming-minor, of course. Why become major? Murat's language is also interesting to me, especially in the context of Deleuze. The two cinema volumes are terrific and they offer the author a gazillion ideas about , as Deleuze says in "He Stuttered," "carving out a nonpreexistent foreign language within his [sic] own language" (once again, those pesky trajectories). How what D says in Cinema becomes "being on guard" or "creating a new template" is what bothers me. Once again, why would one want to create a new template? And this creation sounds like a paranoid move too. A defensive posture would hinder the kind of free play that could break templates and even the idea of a template. I think as long as "point of view" comes from the outside, it will never do anything other than establish authority -- by being dependent on common ideas like "object" and "subject" for example -- and never undermine or push out. Deleuze, in The Fold, writes "It is not a variation of truth according to the subject, but the condition in which the truth of a variation appears to the subject." In other words, the subject varies as part of its own condition which is a point of view on variation (actually on the line of variation). Once this Baroque idea goes Neo-Baroque, this is not like "no absolute ground" but more like many absolute grounds, all of which apply (the monad is held open as with pliers, says D when talking about the Neo-Baroque). And of course it carries with it ontological implications, which are always terrific. "Projecting a point of view" (Murat's phrase) is interesting phrasing too -- the projector remains quite distant and intact. Jennie Trivanovich Neighbors ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 12:31:45 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 In-Reply-To: <000401c225ae$f968b000$8b42c143@Dell> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is sad news on such a beautiful; July morning. Kenneth Koch was sources of inspiration for me - I will his presences. Happy Journey. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza =20 editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru=20 -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Ron Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 8:08 AM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 July 7, 2002 Kenneth Koch, 77, Poet of New York School, Dies By ALAN FEUER New York Times Kenneth Koch, a poet of the New York School whose work combined the sardonic wit of a borscht-belt comic, the erotic whimsy of a Surrealist painter and the gritty wisdom of a scared young soldier, died yesterday after a long battle with leukemia at his home in Manhattan. He was 77. Mr. Koch's literary career spanned more than 50 years and resulted in the publication of at least 30 volumes of poetry and plays whose linguistic exuberance and experimental zest were bested only by their omnivorous subject matter. He wrote elegies, parodies, Dadaist dramas and fragmented shards of loosely structured verse on a palette of topics that ranged from his father's furniture business in southern Ohio to Japanese baseball stars to the pleasures of eating lunch.=20 Mr. Koch (pronounced coke) was considered a founding member of the New York School, an avant-garde poetic movement that was forged in the Manhattan of the 1950's when the beer at the Cedar Tavern flowed as smoothly as the passionate talk about Abstract Expressionist art. He and his contemporaries =97 the poets, John Ashbery and Frank O'Hara, and the painters, Jane Freilicher and Larry Rivers =97 took up the brash, anti-establishment mantle of their beatnik predecessors, but with a more classically European touch and with less machismo and facial hair.=20 Later in life, Mr. Koch became well known as a professor of poetry, mainly at Columbia University, where he lectured on literature and inspired budding writers for nearly 40 years. He was a spontaneous, high-octane teacher who was not above leaping on to desks to prove a point and who, for many years, taught writing to grade-school children, claiming that poetry was as thrilling as stickball. Kenneth Jay Koch was born Feb. 27, 1925 in Cincinnati, Ohio, the son of Stuart Koch, who owned a furniture store, and Lillian Koch, who wrote amateur literary reviews. After graduating high school, he served in the Philippines during World War II, a harrowing experience that he did not translate into verse until the very end of his life. When the war ended, Mr. Koch enrolled at Harvard. He studied writing with the poet Delmore Schwartz and embarked on a lifelong friendship with Mr. Ashbery. By his own account, he was hungry for the poet's life but na=EFve about the art of making poems. "I was so dumb I thought = Yeats was pronounced Yeets," he said in an interview in 1977. "I think we may have been more conscious than many poets of the surface of the poem, and what was going on while we were writing and how we were using words," he said of the New York School in the same interview. "I don't think we saw any reason to resist humor in our poems." Indeed, Mr. Koch's poetry is at once lyrical and humorous, aching with emotion and achingly funny. He managed to write verse that is breathy and expansive in tone, yet still rooted in the American predilections for pop culture references and proper nouns. This is an excerpt from Mr. Koch's poem, "Thank You": The only thing I could publicize well would be my tooth, Which I could say came with my mouth and in a most engaging manner With my whole self, my body and including my mind, Spirits, emotions, spiritual essences, emotional substances, poetry, dreams, and lords Of my life, everything, all embraceleted with my tooth In a way that makes one wish to open the windows and scream "Hi!" to the heavens, And "Oh, come and take me away before I die in a minute!" "His great ability as a poet was to combine modernism and lyricism and to write poems that gave you a feeling as joyous as Whitman," said Ron Padgett, a former student of Mr. Koch's and a poet himself. Speaking of Mr. Koch's long poem, "The Duplications," one reviewer said it read like a collaboration between Lord Byron, Walt Disney, Frank Buck and Andre Breton. Collaboration was, in fact, a crucial part of Mr. Koch's art. He and Mr. Rivers, for instance, worked together on a series of painting-poems called "New York, 1950-1960" and "Post Cards." He also wrote the librettos to operas set to music by, among others, the composer Ned Rorem. Mr. Koch once told an interviewer that, as a child, he kept a little orange book named the "Scribble-in Book," which he filled with his sketches and musings. In high school, he set out to write what he called "obscene and angry" poems, which he showed to his junior-year English teacher, Katherine Lappa. Although he thought the verses would horrify Ms. Lappa, she told Mr. Koch =97 at least, as he recalled it =97 "That's exactly the way you should be feeling when you're 17 years old." This fall, two of his books will be issued posthumously =97 one contains many of his previously unpublished poems from the early 1950's, and the other is a gathering of new works. His most recent book was "New Addresses," a collection of apostrophes to abstract ideas like World War II and Judaism. He was a member of the American Academy of Arts and Letters and won several prizes over the course of his career, including the Bollingen Prize in 1995 and the Rebekah Johnson Bobbitt National Prize for Poetry in 1996. He was awarded three Fulbright scholarships and a National Endowment for the Arts grant. He is survived by his wife, Karen Koch; his daughter, Katherine Koch; and a grandson, Jesse Statman. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 13:28:54 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Vernon, I invoked the "second think" because a first thought isn't always the best thought. That third think Bell wants wasn't mentioned because I'm not an advocate of overthinking things. Also I also don't care if I have the last word--actually, I don't think one can--which is kind of the point of our Minifesto, eh? What I've always wanted more than anything else from poetry is to feel a part of a larger cultural conversation: to say or do something that might be of some use...to find some measure of acceptance as a worker in the field. I'm not sure I understand your reference to Shakespeare but I know that all art, all human exchange, is risky. I wouldn't have it any other way. Hey, this is fun! Tom > The first and second think could very well be poetics and criticism, but > they could also be poems, depending on the temperament or inclination of > the > writer. Obviously, you've demonstrated that a poem can include poetics, or > the process of working toward a poetics. Good. I like to keep things as > open > as possible. > > You realize, of course, that Frazer's Minifesto, a collaborative document > in process, invites comparison with Shakespeare on the question of > authorship. I find this flattering, but not without risk. Some scholars > might look at our collaboration and attribute it to Christopher Marlowe. > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:00:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Clai Rice Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I found this in the Linguist List archives, from Ellen Prince: "Joshua Fishman (Mendele, 10/28/96) reported that the quote is indeed from Max Weinreich and was located by Avrohom Novershtern as: 'a shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot.' Weinreich, M. 1945. Der yivo un di problemen fun undzer tsayt. [YIVO and the problems of our time.] Yivo-bleter 25.1.13." --Clai On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > At 9:24 PM +1200 7/7/02, richard.tylr wrote: > >Yiddish would be a natural language like any other "language" or a dialect: > >it is the language of German Jews ... > > my query was partly tongue-in-cheek...also, it was mostly eastern european > jews who spoke yiddish, not german jews, at least by the modern era... so > gertrude was not a yiddish speaker but alice probably was... thanks all > for the flurry of weinreich/chomsky/luxembourgish quips... > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:16:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Tom Kerouac was my second boyhood hero, but I don't agree with his statement that the first thought is necessarily the best. Sometimes relying on the first thought can prevent a person from over-thinking, a practice that I try to avoid because it can lead to endless convolutions of logic wrapping around the main point until I lose sight of it. Even so, the 87th thought can sometimes be the best. I think the minifesto is something that can be added to indefinitely. Fun should be an integral part of it. To refer to an old thread I never responded to, I've always believed that literature can be fun and that more lives need fun in them. My reference to Shakespeare relates to the question of who really wrote Shakespeare's plays. I think some scholars have asserted that Marlowe wrote at least one of them. I'm not a Shakespeare scholar, so I can't say anything definitive about the authorship. Perhaps a greater risk to our credibility is the undergrad who wonders how many monkeys it would take to produce Frazer's Minifesto as a result of random typing. On the other hand, aleatoric composition could have a place somewhere in the minifesto. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Beckett" To: Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 1:28 PM Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > Hi Vernon, > > I invoked the "second think" because a first thought isn't always the best > thought. That third think Bell wants wasn't mentioned because I'm not an > advocate of overthinking things. Also I also don't care if I have the last > word--actually, I don't think one can--which is kind of the point of our > Minifesto, eh? What I've always wanted more than anything else from poetry > is to feel a part of a larger cultural conversation: to say or do something > that might be of some use...to find some measure of acceptance as a worker in > the field. > > > I'm not sure I understand your reference to Shakespeare but I know that all > art, all human exchange, is risky. I wouldn't have it any other way. > > Hey, this is fun! > > Tom > > > The first and second think could very well be poetics and criticism, but > > they could also be poems, depending on the temperament or inclination of > > the > > writer. Obviously, you've demonstrated that a poem can include poetics, or > > the process of working toward a poetics. Good. I like to keep things as > > open > > as possible. > > > > You realize, of course, that Frazer's Minifesto, a collaborative document > > in process, invites comparison with Shakespeare on the question of > > authorship. I find this flattering, but not without risk. Some scholars > > might look at our collaboration and attribute it to Christopher Marlowe. > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:08:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: minifesto of the minimites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain First second-thought, best second-thought. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 16:54:05 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Close reading close readings In-Reply-To: <20020706031405.55106.qmail@web11707.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Frequently Asked Questions Q: Do poets wish to be understood? A: No, not really. What they desire is admiration, good blurbs, tenure, proud parents, flattering author photos, invitations to parties, chances to snub the competition, checks from deranged old philanthropists, and the Nobel Prize. In short, they want love. Unlike bagging groceries or assembling Nikes, writing implicates the ego. And the ego demands love--a much more powerful incentive than cash, even in our slave economy. Q: OK, that explains Jorie Graham. But how is it that genuinely new and good poems continue to appear? A: Good poems emerge because genuine talent cannot conceal itself, nor can the pretentious fake it for very long. Q: What is the role of criticism in all this? (I mean, non-academic criticism.) A: To help the process along by trying to identify the new and the good, the bogus and the trite, so that other writers may learn and benefit. Q: Whoa, hombre. Isn't that sort of a power trip? I mean, like, who are you to say what's good and what isn't? Aren't you working within a pretty narrow horizon of circumscribed norms? You make all these assertions, but you never cite any theorists. And you're really nothing but a bunch of tropes, anyway. We all are. Nothing but us straw dogs around here. What do you say to that? Huh? A: This is a stunning collection by one of our finest poets, writing at the height of her powers. It's a delicately fierce book, alternately heartbreaking and hilarious, accessible, reflexive, never dull and often moving, unsettling the lyric subject with postmodern flair. A dazzling investigation of the daily disjunctions of cultural identity. The poet's imagination is working at full kilter. Deeply emotional. An amusing, amazing music. Should change the way we read poetry. Hang on, it's quite a ride. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 15:43:51 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" so, not uriel but his bro (?) max. max's The History of Yiddish is a marvel. At 3:00 PM -0400 7/7/02, Clai Rice wrote: >I found this in the Linguist List archives, from Ellen Prince: > >"Joshua Fishman (Mendele, 10/28/96) reported that the quote is indeed from >Max Weinreich and was located by Avrohom Novershtern as: > > 'a shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot.' > Weinreich, M. 1945. Der yivo un di problemen fun undzer > tsayt. [YIVO and the problems of our time.] Yivo-bleter > 25.1.13." > >--Clai > > >On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > >> At 9:24 PM +1200 7/7/02, richard.tylr wrote: >> >Yiddish would be a natural language like any other "language" or a >>dialect: >> >it is the language of German Jews ... >> >> my query was partly tongue-in-cheek...also, it was mostly eastern european >> jews who spoke yiddish, not german jews, at least by the modern era... so >> gertrude was not a yiddish speaker but alice probably was... thanks all >> for the flurry of weinreich/chomsky/luxembourgish quips... >> ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:41:31 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: Close reading close readings In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Andrew Rathmann writes: >Frequently Asked Questions >Q: Do poets wish to be understood? >A: No, not really. etc. I Reply: Yikes. Good thing this isn't true. Mostly. But, ya know, a check from a deranged old philanthropist would go a long way toward this month's bills . . . So I offer this poem as an antidote. It's from Gustaf Sobin's _In the Name of the Neither_, 2002 Talisman Press: Article of Faith . . . would travel forever towards those buried mirrors, what the future so consummately withholds. 'memories,' you'd called them: the grey gaze in its diadem of dark lashes a- lighting, at last, in the remote ovals of the eventual. does it glow? then glean. ripple? then ride the least quivering signal clear to its deepest ob- fuscated source. for only the image--'icon,' you'd called it--withstands the un- remitting dispersion of the heart's most adamant particles. move, then, amongst shadows. in the pale grammar of the grasses, read the re- constituted facets of the otherwise ob- literated face. nothing ends. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 09:01:25 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Kenneth Koch died on July 6 after a battle with leukaemia. Comments: To: edit@jacketmagazine.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kenneth Koch died on July 6 after a battle with leukaemia. A few months ago he sent me a postcard telling me how honored and=20 overwhelmed he was by the tributes in Jacket 15. They're still there: friends and admirers might like to browse through them= =20 again: Jacket # 15 http://jacketmagazine.com/15/ * Bill Berkson, =91Spring 1959=92 * Tom Clark, =91Another Sleepless Night=92 * Robert Creeley, =91For Kenneth=92 * Barbara Guest, =91To Kenneth=92 (a note) * Paul Hoover, =91But Kenneth=92 * Vincent Katz, =91The Dogs of S=E3o Paulo=92 * Jack Kimball and Kent Johnson =97 from: =91Postcards from the Vichy= =92 * John Kinsella, =91Amnesia=92 * Kenneth Koch and Allen Ginsberg , =91Popeye and William Blake Fight= to=20 the Death=92 =97 an audio recording of a public rhyming contest at St Mark's= =20 Poetry Project, NYC, 9 May 1979 * David Lehman, =91March 4=92 * David Lehman reviews When the Sun Tries to Go On (1969) * Harry Mathews, =91Lateral Disregard=92 * Nicole Mauro, =91Ode=92 (To Kenneth Koch) * Charles North, =91To K.K.=92 * Hilton Obenzinger: =91Did You Write Any Poems=92? * Ron Padgett, =91Goethe=92 * Tom Raworth, Three images for Kenneth Koch * Hazel Smith, Talking with Kenneth * Tony Towle, =91Vacations=92, for Kenneth Koch * David Shapiro, A Conversation with Kenneth Koch (1969) * John Tranter, =91Three Poems About Kenneth Koch=92 * John Tranter, =91Dan Dactyl=92 (cartoon) * John Tranter, Interview with Kenneth Koch, New York City, 1989, in=20 Jacket 5. You can hear an 18-minute edited RealAudio recording of this=20 interview. If you'd like to obtain the free RealAudio plug-in for your=20 browser, go to http://www.real.com/ and download the basic model. * Anne Waldman, Interview with Kenneth Koch, New York City, 1980 best, ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:52:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: # my leaky sieve ## MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII # my leaky sieve ## drwx--s--x lrwxrwxrwx drwxr-xr-x drwx--S--- -rw------- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx -rw------- -rw------- drwx------ -rw-r--r-- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw-rw-r-- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx -rwx--x--x -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx drwx--x--x -rwx------ -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- drwx--s--x -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- drwx--s--x -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw-r--r-- -rw------- drwx--s--x -rw------- -rw-r--r-- -rw------- -rw-r--r-- -rw------- -rwx------ -rw------- -rw-rw-rw- -rwxrwxrwx -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- drwx--s--x -rw-r--r-- -rw------- drwx--s--x drwx--s--x -rwxrwxrwx -rw------- drwx------ drwx--s--x drwx--s--x drwx--s--x -rw------- drwx------ -rw------- -rw----r-- -rw-rw-r-- -rw-rw-r-- -rw------- -rwxr-xr-x drwxr-xr-x -rw------- -rw------- -rw-r--r-- -rw-rw-r-- -rw------- # my leaky sieve ## i never stole anything i once ran away from a dying animal i once had sex with a minor i once thought i was going crazy i once tried to kill myself with iodine i once was a coward i once killed a mouse i once insulted someone i never raped anyone i once insulted anyone i once touched someone i once abandoned someone i once slapped anyone i never hit anyone i once was a coward i never killed anyone i once ran over a cat i never hit a deer i once killed a raccoon i never stole anything i once was rude i once was fired i once failed a course i once was shameful i once had an accident i once wasn't driving i once abandoned someone i once was responsible i once was beaten i once had jaundice i once was ill 1068171603111112111111111111112111111121111111121 11111111211111111111111112117211232212111111211111 # my leaky sieve ## ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 17:58:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Re: # my leaky sieve ## In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit on 7/7/02 5:52 PM, Alan Sondheim at sondheim@panix.com wrote: > # my leaky sieve ## please keep them coming Alan. kari edwards -- Check out: http://poetz.com/fir/may02.htm http://poetz.com/fir/feb02.htm http://www.webdelsol.com/InPosse/edwards10.htm http://www.puppyflowers.com/II/flowers.html ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 13:04:58 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Oh well, so much for my carreer as a linguist! I had such hopes. But any dialect can be/ is surely a language: impossible to have a nonLanguage? By definition - it is maybe that we need to redefine langauge: English or "received English" obviously had better organised armies and navies I havent read Chomsky (havent read far too much in fact). I was thinking of those people who (with regard to English) believe that the correct english is that of the BBC in England and someone neccesarily eduacted at Yale, Harvard, or The Bronx (sorry Bronxites!) (no, I was going to say is Barnard?) and that all the people in New Zealand and Australia etc speak BAD ENGLISH...but of course they still speak a language. But seriously, a friend of mine objected to what he calls the "inefficiency" of a language (Chinese) with its millions of superfluous characters (ideograms, not ideotograms I corrected him) he believes that they should be forced to have a better language for the purposes of human progess and overall efficiency as and that it can and DID work as in Indonesia when they made (forced them at gunpoint I'll be damned) everyone to speak the same basic language and this made everything more betterer: more progressive. he also doesnt like my namesake Charles Taylor of Liberia who is apparantly the chief flog in Liberia but I said I hoped that he WAS a terribly ruthless (if i wasnt indifferent to the man's existence or otherwise) and backward man: we need them...I hoped I said that when my friend returns form Morocco (she has a Morrocan "partner" ) that she will report the delights of witnessing some marvellously quaint and exotically and (hopefully erotic) and barbaric beheadings. Just as I have never been to England but I dream of cottages and tea and scones and kindnesses and goodnesses with honey in them..... Richard Brookey ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clai Rice" To: Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 7:00 AM Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > I found this in the Linguist List archives, from Ellen Prince: > > "Joshua Fishman (Mendele, 10/28/96) reported that the quote is indeed from > Max Weinreich and was located by Avrohom Novershtern as: > > 'a shprakh iz a diyalekt mit an armey un a flot.' > Weinreich, M. 1945. Der yivo un di problemen fun undzer > tsayt. [YIVO and the problems of our time.] Yivo-bleter > 25.1.13." > > --Clai > > > On Sun, 7 Jul 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > > > At 9:24 PM +1200 7/7/02, richard.tylr wrote: > > >Yiddish would be a natural language like any other "language" or a dialect: > > >it is the language of German Jews ... > > > > my query was partly tongue-in-cheek...also, it was mostly eastern european > > jews who spoke yiddish, not german jews, at least by the modern era... so > > gertrude was not a yiddish speaker but alice probably was... thanks all > > for the flurry of weinreich/chomsky/luxembourgish quips... > > ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 20:08:39 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Todd Baron Subject: Koch awaits Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable think of K Koch today as poem says "literal/local" voice always though the day/the days/ the sound of the streets/etc don't always call for good poems. K Koch is missed a key/ a beat Todd Baron ---------- >From: Automatic digest processor >To: Recipients of POETICS digests >Subject: POETICS Digest - 5 Jul 2002 to 6 Jul 2002 (#2002-145) >Date: Sat, Jul 6, 2002, 9:02 PM > > There are 13 messages totalling 1325 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Poetics > 2. > 3. Some Preliminary Conclusions > 4. Close reading close readings > 5. A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer (3) > 6. POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) > 7. Puns (also re: recognition) (4) > 8. (from J. Moxley) splendid splinter waved home.... > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 03:22:43 -0500 > From: Thomas Bell > Subject: Re: Poetics > > Michael Heller wrote of 'becoming minor' and Murat calls for 'a continuum= of > beginnings' which would be more 'Asian, more ecclectic, more open to vis= ual > arts -poetry not as "expansion" or "development" of an avant-garde > tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, a new beginning, that is, create = a > new template." > > This set me thinking of a review I read about a month back by Sven Birker= ts > in the NYTimes BR of the more 'mainstream' Jorie Graham's latest which wa= s > appreciate but critical of what he felt was her 'tentativeness' and leads > him to 'question the viability of poetry as an instrument of > philosophy...the disappearance of the perceived thing or the felt experie= nce > into the inconclusive enactments of process points to a dead end.' Whate= ver > you think of Graham's work it does seem to me that this 'criticism' is > perhaps missing the point here in that the poetic focus on process is in > fact the type of poetics (impelled by poets) that is needed. > > tom bell > > &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: > Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html > Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at > http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm > Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ > Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:34:53 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: > > I TELL TRUTH no under not i'm god o' nation no under not i'm flag no unde= r > not i'm i god under country no got i god over religion no got i mandate > war-time it love i'll care health gimme anywhere it love don't here it > love don't been never afghanistan know don't i transportation education > gimme forever fries the loved everyone pakistan islam into fries poured > they kabul to god no code secret the about you told i code secret in this > writing i'm up god no valleys in god no mountains in god no mounds shell > in anywhere anywhere country no inside god no outside god no there down > god no there you but I AM STILL STUPID BAD WRITER > > _ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 01:30:30 -0400 > From: Millie Niss > Subject: Re: Some Preliminary Conclusions > > I love this! Have you read Liz Waldner? She writes a little bit like > this, at least in "A Point is That Which has No Part" > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Sheila Massoni > Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 8:39 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions > > > Sackcrete ne plus ultra de concrete or sack Crete sacre Coeur du jour du > jour mais non nevermore por favor encore father forgive me for I have sun= ned > too much aujourdhui merci mercy et TV Bush says baseball is another branc= h > of > the armed services to be forearmed is to be forewarned in NJ we say fo wa= rd > wonder does swimming in chlorinated water whiten one's teeth addle one's > eggs? sm. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 10:18:35 -0400 > From: Pierre Joris > Subject: Re: Close reading close readings > > Jeffrey Jullich wrote: > ...(the real >> outcome of Barthes' "Death of the Author" criticism, >> despite the earlier misinterpretations and >> objectionable gay-bashing that passed, like the attack >> on drag, unchallenged here ["Barthes, a frustrated gay >> writer, had to force himself into the critic-closet & >> his revenge was . . .", "while Foucault went to SF >> for the actual jouissance of MS, with unhappily lethal >> results] > > No gay-bashing or attack on drag in my description of the French scene of > the 50ies & 60ies. Maybe that's why it went "unchallenged here"? i.e. no > one, except you, took it as such. To the contrary: the point being that t= he > late sixties sexpol movements started to let gays (including B & F), amon= g > other oppressed groups, come out & breathe & live more freely, while open= ing > a range of theoretical & practical areas of investigation. (BTW. there is= a > fascinating little "roman =E0 clef" on that period called "Le Bordel Andalo= u" > by Georges Lapassade, published in the early 1970ies by Ediitons de l'Her= ne, > but as far as I know not translated into English.) > > Pierre > > ______________________________________________________________________ > Pierre Joris > 6 Madison Place > Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time > Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. > Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art > Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen > Email: joris@albany.edu > Url: > ________________________________________________________________________ > >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 11:41:09 EDT > From: Tom Beckett > Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > > Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. > > Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. > > Think twice, let's all write. > > Tom Beckett > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:53:21 -0500 > From: Thomas Bell > Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > > sounds good to me but maybe we can write and then think and then think > again? > > the first think is poetics? > the twice think is criticism? > > this is a poem. > > tom bell > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Beckett" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 10:41 AM > Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > > >> Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. >> >> Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. >> >> Think twice, let's all write. >> >> Tom Beckett > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 12:21:59 -0700 > From: Todd Baron > Subject: Re: POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) > > Roberto bedoya's current address anyone? > > yrs > > Todd Baron > > ---------- >>From: Automatic digest processor >>To: Recipients of POETICS digests >>Subject: POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) >>Date: Fri, Jul 5, 2002, 9:01 PM >> > >> There are 16 messages totalling 695 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. xStream #2 online >> 2. Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ >> 3. Earle Brown 1926-2002 >> 4. Poetics (2) >> 5. Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ (7) >> 6. Great Auk Poem >> 7. Some Preliminary Conclusions (2) >> 8. Close reading close readings >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:12:18 +0200 >> From: Jukka-Pekka Kervinen >> Subject: xStream #2 online >> >> >> >> xStream -- Issue #2 >> >> >> >> >> >> xStream Issue #2 is online. It consists three different magazines: >> >> >> 1. Regular: Works from 5 poets >> >> 2. Autoissue: Poems generated by computer from Issue #2 texts. >> >> 3. Collaborative: Joel Chace (poems) and Jukka-Pekka Kervinen >> (computer-processed variations). >> >> >> Submissions for Issue #3 are welcome. >> >> >> Submissions to xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi. >> >> >> Sincerely, >> >> Jukka-Pekka Kervinen >> Editor >> xStream >> WWW: http://www.geocities.com/xstreamezine >> Mirror: http://xstream.alturl.com >> email: xstreamezine@pp.inet.fi >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 03:18:20 -0700 >> From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino >> Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ >> >> Andrew Rathmann wrote: >> >> Yet we are left unsure >> about the poet's own relation to these bits and pieces (an uncertainty w= e >> never feel in Howe's work, >> >> >> >> Oh really? >> Signed, >> (i guess) they.... >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 10:15:16 -0500 >> From: mIEKAL aND >> Subject: Earle Brown 1926-2002 >> >> I think in colors. I think in masses and colors and planes. I don't sta= r=3D > t >> to write a piece of music with a twelve tone row or something like that,= =3D > or >> even coming up with a melody and then trying to figure out what to do ne= x=3D > t. >> I start with a total concept. And then I try to fulfill what my imagina= t=3D > ion >> has already given me inside. Mozart said that he visualized a piece of = m=3D > usic >> almost instantly. I do that and it takes me a long time to get it down = o=3D > n >> paper. I change it and change it and sometimes I can't even get it on p= a=3D > per. >> I've experienced that over and over. But once I start thinking about a = n=3D > ew >> piece, I get a pretty clear picture of what I'm going to do. And then I= =3D > go >> into the details. >> >> --Earle Brown in conversation >> >> >> First graphic notation (1952) >> First proportional notation (1952) >> Open Form concept (late 50s) >> Spontaneous direction of orchestra performance (1961) >> >> Earle Brown died this morning. >> >> >> I thought you might want to know. >> >> >> >> Petr Kotik, July 2, 2002 >> >> >> >> http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=3D3D312113 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:00:00 -0100 >> From: Michael Heller >> Subject: Poetics >> >> Dear Murat, >> >> Didn't mean to put any thoughts in your mouth, but was responding to the >> fact that a number of your posts seemed to have as their agon, Language >> Poetry, as in today's listing: >> >> "I believe Language school poetics is a hindrance to the younger generat= i=3D > ons >> of poets writing today -even to those who like, appreciate or admire thi= s >> poetry. My ideas relate to, speak to that struggle, though in years I am >> older than they are. I believe poetry today must find a completely new s= e=3D > ts >> of references (less French/European, less word/literature bound), more A= s=3D > ian, >> more ecclectic, more open to visual arts -poetry not as "expansion" or >> "development" of an avant-garde tradition, but a deeper re-orientation, = a=3D > new >> beginning, that is, create a new template." >> >> By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with this--if it is indeed the >> case for some poets--but I wouldn't want to universalize the/any >> medicine. In my critique, some years back in Sagetrieb ("Avant-garde >> Propellants in the Machine Made of Words") where I discussed some of the >> problems with the underpinnings and practices of the movement/moment (am= o=3D > ng >> other things), I proposed the idea of a poetics--also rooted in Benjamin= '=3D > s >> thought--of counter-continuities. "Aspects of Poetics," a much newer >> piece, was written after reflecting on a number of more recent things, = t=3D > he >> quarrels on this list some years ago, partly emanating from the Apex of = t=3D > he >> M and generational disputes, the anxieties (maybe not of influence) >> expressed at the NYU conference of young poets (in the late 90s--one of = t=3D > he >> organizers was Rob Fitterman), poetry and poetics scuttlebutt. The seco= n=3D > d >> half of that essay isn't up yet, but its basic idea is to suggest seeing >> poetics from an "as if" or "phantomological" perspective--less >> heavy-handed, less investment-oriented. My own perspective on poetics, >> which I acknowledge as solely my own blundering via negativa and not mea= n=3D > t >> to be prescriptive, derives from my Western-Jewish interests and my East= e=3D > rn >> proto-buddhist inclinations. I suppose, if it has an external rubric, = i=3D > t >> comes out of Deleuze and Guattari's remark in "Toward a Minor Literatur= e=3D > ": >> "How may styles or genres or literary movement, even very small ones, ha= v=3D > e >> only one single dream: to assume a major function in language, to offer >> themselves as a sort of state language, an official language....Create t= h=3D > e >> opposite dream: know how to create a becoming-minor (Is there hope for >> philosophy, which for a long time has been an official referential >> genre? Let us profit from this moment in which antiphilosphy is trying = t=3D > o >> be a language of power.) (p27) Where appropriate, substitute the word >> "poetics" for the word "philosophy" to get my drift. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 12:53:35 -0500 >> From: J Gallaher >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> Lawrence Upton writes in, agreeing with Tom Beckett's post: >> >> <"...it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive >> discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat >> disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born." Substitute >> Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry >> of great verve and elegance> >> >> I reply: >> >> I've been happy following this thread along with the other threads this >> week, as they seem to be leading toward the same basic question(-ing) >> of "evaluative" criticism. It's good to have a specific text that these >> issues can play off of. >> >> What troubles me, however, is how there doesn't seem to be a very >> specific counter argument to Andrew Rathmann's initial, negative, >> reading. (Since that is what he was being called to task for.) >> >> And here, I only have a question (not intended to be a loaded >> question): If a poet's work can be very well described by taking the >> description of another and switching names, then what is original, and >> of value, about this poet? I still remain interested in finding that out= . >> >> Best, >> JGallaher >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 14:07:13 EDT >> From: Tom Beckett >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> In a message dated 7/5/02 1:54:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: >> >> >>> And here, I only have a question (not intended to be a loaded >>> question): If a poet's work can be very well described by taking the >>> description of another and switching names, then what is original, and >>> of value, about this poet? I still remain interested in finding that ou= t=3D > . >>> >>> >> If there was a lack of originality in switching names, that lack was min= e=3D > . >> I, Tom Beckett, did that in a shorthand way of trying to show something = o=3D > f >> what I see in Wolsak's work. My limitations are notorious but you seem = t=3D > o be >> confusing an approach to the work with the work being discussed. _Pen >> Chants_ is quite original and innovative but not paraphrasable. The Cli= f=3D > f >> Notes have yet to be written. Read _Pen Chants_. Or consult any of the >> various links noted in previous posts to get a glimmer. It's worth the = l=3D > ook. >> It's worth saying out loud. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 13:21:30 -0500 >> From: J Gallaher >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> Tom Beckett writes: >> >> > the work being discussed. _Pen Chants_ is quite original and >> innovative but not paraphrasable.> >> >> I reply: >> >> True, a good reply. It brings to my mind the "always already" aspect >> of individual poems . . . how poets desire to get out from underneath >> the totalizing aspects of any poetics (even ones they've written), while >> critics (reviewers, etc) desire to define them into such a structure. >> There probably is no way out of this? As we need to talk of poetry . . . >> otherwise we'd have to pass by in silence. And we're not a very silent >> bunch. >> >> Best, >> JGallaher >> J Gallaher >> >> Metaphors Be With You . . . >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:08:41 -0400 >> From: Alan Sondheim >> Subject: Great Auk Poem >> >> Great Auk Poem >> >> >> awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >=3D3D i NF; =3D3D i ( for >> awk: front:2: ^ syntax error >> awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >=3D3D i NF; =3D3D i ( for >> awk: front:2: ^ syntax error >> awk: front:2: ) i-- 1; >=3D3D i NF; =3D3D i ( for >> awk: front:2: ^ syntax error >> front > back back -f awk k7% >> zz > back front -f awk k8% >> for ( i =3D3D NF; i >=3D3D 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: >> error syntax ^ front:2: awk: >> for ( i =3D3D NF; i >=3D3D 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: >> error syntax ^ front:2: awk: >> for ( i =3D3D NF; i >=3D3D 1; i-- ) front:2: awk: >> error syntax ^ front:2: awk: >> >> >> _ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:19:23 EDT >> From: Tom Beckett >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> In a message dated 7/5/02 2:22:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >> Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: >> >> >>> how poets desire to get out from underneath >>> the totalizing aspects of any poetics (even ones they've written), whil= e >>> critics (reviewers, etc) desire to define them into such a structure >> >> Let's be clear, I have no interest in trying to define Wolsak's work in= t=3D > o a >> structure. I imported a vocabulary from an acknowledged source by way o= f >> substitution. This wasn't Wolsak's methodology, it was mine. >> >> It kind of worries me how you generalize about poets and critic. Poets d= e=3D > sire >> any number of things in re: poetics. Worries about totalization strike m= e=3D > as >> being after the fact of the poem. Damn, at least I hope so. Too much tex= t=3D > ual >> anxiety leads to performance problems, yes? >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 16:00:49 -0400 >> From: Vernon Frazer >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> Yes. I've always found working from theory can wilt a cursor. In theory,= =3D > the >> work should inspire a new theory to explain it. >> >> Vernon >> >> >> >>> In a message dated 7/5/02 2:22:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, >>> Gallaher@MAIL.UCA.EDU writes: >>> >>> >>> . Worries about totalization strike me as being after the fact of the >> poem. Damn, at least I hope so. Too much textual > anxiety leads to >> performance problems, yes? >>> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 15:55:41 -0600 >> From: Andrew Rathmann >> Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions >> >> Recent poetry is often said to exhibit formal diversity, and observation >> bears this out. Nevertheless, from the generalizing perspective of poet= i=3D > cs >> we see that at any given time a limited number of conventions will domin= a=3D > te >> practice. In my readings I've been trying to focus on poets who show >> promise of resisting that domination and pushing beyond the approved mod= e=3D > s, >> even if, at the same time, they also exemplify them. At the risk of bei= n=3D > g >> classified by my classifications (and judged by my judgments), I've tri= e=3D > d >> to spell out some of these modes: >> >> 1. The mode that satirizes capitalist society by ridiculing its idioms, >> slogans, jingles, jargons, sound bites, etc. The pun is a weapon in thi= s >> war, since it undercuts the jargon with pointedly irrelevant meanings. >> Also in the arsenal are the line break, the creative misspelling, and >> various other typographical hijinks, since they do simulated violence to >> officially sanctioned language. Cabri is the best satirist within this >> mode, which, despite its ethos of guerrilla critique, is (like all satir= e=3D > ) >> fundamentally conservative. But Cabri's wit often lures him to write pa= s=3D > t >> and beyond his sense of righteousness, thus transcending mere satire. >> >> 2. The mode of Stein. Its attraction for younger poets is that it relie= v=3D > es >> the burden of having to load each line with maximum ore. It frees the p= o=3D > et >> from flashy writing and makes available the quieter resources of variati= o=3D > n >> and revision. Stein's way of writing was so vacuous, so deadly, that it >> could mean only one thing: this was written by Stein. Yet in Spahr's wo= r=3D > k >> the mode affords a constructive way to assemble large meanings out of sm= a=3D > ll >> bare statements grounded in a communally agreed-upon reality. Lu's pros= e >> is also tangentially connected to the Steinian manner in its plainness a= n=3D > d >> avoidance of affect, but Lu seems too interested in ideas, individuals, = a=3D > nd >> experiences to be a true resident of the great Steinian void. >> >> 3. The performative mode. Here the dominant strain is New York School o= n=3D > ly >> more prickly. E.g, Minnis saying she wants to wear hot pants and rest a >> boot on the back of a man's neck. Also Wolff's "arch dolefulness" and >> gothicism (though these two poets are actually quite dissimilar.) This >> mode is superficially related to the speech-based lyricism of the >> workshops. It differs in its refusal of easy poignancy and in its >> flamboyant sense of humor. Its practitioners want to give immediate >> pleasure, not make demands on the reader's sympathies. O'Leary is >> somewhere in this part of the forest, too, for though his work contains = a >> good deal of Poundian scholarship, it also dramatizes a sensibility and >> wants to create excitement for the reader. >> >> 4. Neo-romantic fragmentary lyricism. Its diction invokes traditional >> notions of lyric intensity, but it avoids linking those notions into >> coherent statements, presumably so as not to commit the infraction of >> appearing to be a "subject." Syntax is shunned. The poet conceals hers= e=3D > lf >> behind a screen of beautiful fragments. Wolsak, with her keen ear for >> extravagant language. >> >> Each of these writers is doing something new and good. Now back to >> concrete examples... >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 00:55:36 +0100 >> From: Lawrence Upton >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> I didn't write that; Tom Beckett did. >> >> A counter argument had not occurred to me. A well-argued negative case w= o=3D > uld >> be something else; but, until the case against the book is made properly= , >> there is nothing with which to differ. >> >> This is where I came in to the poetry "world" in UK where appreciation o= f >> poetry was deemed to be pursued by demolition jobs spoken in such a way = t=3D > hat >> I and everyone else was deemed to agree - "we see that...", with protest >> ignored - often based on incomplete or spurious arguments and assumption= s=3D > . >> >> In saying "What he said" of Tom Beckett's post, I was acknowledging and >> furthering the appropriateness and wit of his post and my inadequacy. I >> could easily have written " _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry of grea= t >> verve and elegance", but I didn't think to; as soon as I saw it in Tom >> Beckett's post, I found something I already knew to have been expressed = a=3D > nd >> I wanted to support it. >> >> I did not intend to suggest that Wolsak's book is adequately dealt with >> thereby. >> >> What is original in a poet may well be other than much of what is of val= u=3D > e; >> and I don't think that we should conflate the two though they surely >> overlap. >> >> It is an assumption that originality is THE thing. We must be careful of >> such assumptions. >> >> What appears original now may not appear so in the future. Nor is >> originality necessarily to be desired. The perception of originality can >> easily be the flipside of that rather suspect temporal-hierarchical appr= o=3D > ach >> which the reviewer in question appears to favour >> >> I pointed to the assumptions in _a style that is accretive and tonally >> mixed, rather than finished and coherent._ and in _Imagine trying to use= =3D > the >> words "love" or "forever" in a speech-based lyric poem. Impossible."_ >> >> Both these assumptions seem to be repeated in the latest _The poet conce= a=3D > ls >> herself behind a screen of beautiful fragments. Wolsak, with her keen ea= r >> for extravagant language._, which is why I mention then again. >> >> I have no reason to doubt that Andrew Rathman is an excellent fellow... >> >> I trust you all in usa feel thoroughly julyfourthed - here it seems to h= a=3D > ve >> been >> raining for most of my life >> >> >> L >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "J Gallaher" >> To: >> Sent: 05 July 2002 18:53 >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> >> | Lawrence Upton writes in, agreeing with Tom Beckett's post: >> | >> | <"...it is the source, in short, of a harmonious and productive >> | discord...Attack and haven, collision; a fragment of the beat >> | disappears, and of this disappearance, rhythm is born." Substitute >> | Wolsak's name for Clement's. _Pen Chants_ is _syncopated_ poetry >> | of great verve and elegance> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:38:50 EDT >> From: Sheila Massoni >> Subject: Some Preliminary Conclusions >> >> Sackcrete ne plus ultra de concrete or sack Crete sacre Coeur du jour d= u >> jour mais non nevermore por favor encore father forgive me for I have su= n=3D > ned >> too much aujourdhui merci mercy et TV Bush says baseball is another bran= c=3D > h of >> the armed services to be forearmed is to be forewarned in NJ we say fo w= a=3D > rd >> wonder does swimming in chlorinated water whiten one's teeth addle one's >> eggs? sm. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:41:19 EDT >> From: Sheila Massoni >> Subject: Re: Lissa Wolsak's _Pen Chants_ >> >> sorry about that rain apres the fourth the corn is as high as an elephan= t=3D > s >> eye especially sm. >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 20:14:05 -0700 >> From: Jeffrey Jullich >> Subject: Close reading close readings >> >> It's nice that Andrew is serializing these close >> readings (I like the project and its recurrence): it >> provides a recurrent, intermittent feature to the >> List, one of a different type than the vaguer but >> necessary opinionation and merchandise/reading >> promotion, --- sort of like television commericals or >> public service announcements interrupting regular >> programming. Brian Kim Stefans used to post >> "micro-reviews" of books on-List, similarly. One risk >> is that it can seem like "practice" for grown-up >> review-writing elsewhere, as Stefans indeed >> "graduated" to stop posting such here and publishing >> reviews in the likes of The Boston Review. Consistent >> with Andrews' stated endorsement of on-line poetry, he >> helpfully is relying on URL-trailable examples. But >> it's good, too, that Lawrence Upton takes Andrew to >> task for the somewhat gratuitous, casual assertions. >> (Then some Punch and Judy head-bopping!) Especially >> as one of the main features of these close readings, >> proceeding out of their over-all departure from the >> general rule of dialogue/symposium that governs the >> List, is to ignore any subsequent dialogue they spur >> (most of the close readings have been trailed by >> responses that Andrew does not answer ["when the girls >> came out to play Georgie Porgie ran away"-ism]), some >> of which replies, like the one about drag and >> blackface, are more "potent," memorable and volatile >> than the close readings themselves. >> >> But given the ambivalence toward criticism that keeps >> variously expressing itself on the List, criticism >> itself should not be allowed to escape with its own >> transparencies and subterfuges, better in turn that it >> too should be subjected to close reading, to determine >> how its stylistic prerogatives succeed in maintaining >> a power position over the text in question (the real >> outcome of Barthes' "Death of the Author" criticism, >> despite the earlier misinterpretations and >> objectionable gay-bashing that passed, like the attack >> on drag, unchallenged here ["Barthes, a frustrated gay >> writer, had to force himself into the critic-closet & >> his revenge was . . .", "while Foucault went to SF >> for the actual jouissance of MS, with unhappily lethal >> results]: the post-authorial critic is revealed and >> self-confessed to be a repertoire of rhetorical >> tropes, too. The "good" critic, like Barthes, should >> deconstruct himself, simultaneously). >> >> Tomorrow, I'll go on a diet and eat only macrobiotic >> snacks, make parfaits using Rice Dream recipes. >> >> It interests me, as someone who has published a >> handful of criticism/reviews that I vainfully pride >> myself upon, how the close readings (narrowly?) >> imitate a particular stripe of review-writing, >> readings that may be "close" but that are >> unadventurous in their style, reproducing a mode of >> extant criticism rather than wrenching after an >> innovative approach to the very role of critic itself. >> Reviews are a genre and the genre characteristics >> assert themselves with unconscious force, I'm all too >> aware: thus, glib cleverness like "have her persimmons >> and eat them too". ["Eat"? Did someone say "eat"?] >> Some others (like Lisa Samuels' "deformative >> criticism" or Benjamin Friedlander's tracings over >> previous criticism in ~Qui Parle,~ or the sort of >> neo-criticism that ~Telling It Slants~ advertises >> itself on, etc. . . . or even Tom Beckett's fleeting >> use of Tracing Paper criticism) take the interesting >> gauntlet of criticism to be that the critic now needs >> to depart from pre-designated and adopted modes as >> much as the poets under study. In a book like ~A Wild >> Salience,~ essays about Rae Armantrout, it even seems >> that "poets' criticism" equals the poems under >> discussion themselves in obscurity. >> >> My chest is covered with a Hansel and Gretel trail of >> snack food, such as Cracker Jacks and Wheat Thins, >> handfuls of General Mills cereals, that I stuff my >> mouth with, gluttonously chomping, chomping as I type >> with my "free" hand, rolling along the floor to the >> scale to weigh myself again: yep, over 600 lb. >> >> This familiar shadow of established critical tactics >> in the close readings, or sense of deja-vu >> (deja-lire), is there but somewhat difficult to >> pinpoint in the close readings --- a tendency toward, >> as Lawrence objected, unsubstantiated generalization; >> a structure that begins with an ~in media res~ >> assertion of either a question ("Why has the pun >> become so ubiquitous a device . . . ?"; "Who said the >> lyric speaker was dead?"), the proverbs of a canonical >> hero ("Heidegger says something to the effect . . ."), >> an imaginary controversy ("Language writing's >> censorship of the individual voice", "The works of a >> number of younger poets, especially post-MFA poets, >> reflect a desire to get out of the workshop mode") >> that concerns itself with surveying, in fact, ~not~ >> the close reading of a single poem but continually >> treating poets as a sort of flock, multitude, >> concerned with what ~many~ poets are doing and then >> deducing down from that bird's-eye view, ---or such, >> which introduction becomes the pretext for a loosely >> drawn "issue" or ersatz critical thought which the >> close reading is then played off of (so that the >> tension of the close reading is displaced onto how the >> text addresses that straw dog issue, defusing the >> protagonist-antagonist relation between poet and >> critic, . . . a checkmate that still, as in provoking >> Lawrence's objection, filters through [pyoo?]). >> >> But the general ~flavor~ that is left, and that is so >> familiar from prior criticism, is the disappearance >> act of the close reader into a semi-objectivized >> stance, an impersonalization, ironically, at the same >> time as taking exception with the de-personalized >> poetic mode. Compare, instead, other critical >> (earlier) modes, such as Melville's ~Hawthorne and His >> Mosses~ [title??], for example, where the critical >> posture was effusive, rapturous, even eroticized >> enthusiasm and self-depiction (Melville portraying >> himself as chancing upon the book and reading it lying >> down in hay in a barn or open field), or Pound's >> schizo-critical correspondences, which critiqued by >> frothing at the mouth. The movement toward feminist >> "personal criticism" called that impersonal fa=3DE7ade >> "Archimidean" (in the sense of: give me a point >> outside the world and I will be able to move the world >> with a lever), and regarded it as untrustworthy >> because it erases its basis in gender, class, and >> such. >> >> Later, I can eat a Beef Jerky Yum. Salty meat >> snacks. >> >> (http://www.unclechucksbestbeefjerky.com/ >> http://www.primecountry.com.au/ >> http://www.texasbestjerky.com/ >> http://www.wildwestjerky.co.uk/ >> http://www.acmebrand.com/ >> http://www.somethingsmokin.com/ >> http://www.vermonter.com/beefjerky/ >> http://www.azjacks.com/ >> http://www.jerkyusa.com/). >> >> Curiously, the close readings are able to keep the >> pressure of re-personalization stifled for only so >> long, and they habitually end with striking frequency >> (unconscious self-imitation) on a valedictory sentence >> where the strain it takes to keep "I" out of the >> picture falters and the first person (singular or >> plural) re-enters only to depart, much like the >> similar, well-known habit of pronouns at the closing >> line of a John Ashbery poem ["I promise the sun was a >> switch, or tickler", "if we should ever get to know >> them", "We may live more patently . . .", "I think / >> the theme created itself . . .", etc., etc., etc., >> from ~Can You Hear, Little Birdie~ or elsewhere]. >> >> Rathmann close reading closing sentences, after an >> otherwise "I"-hygenicized critical screen: "I myself >> think her refusals of solemnity pay >> off in many cases", "At least we can see . . .", "I >> think poetry is better served by Option #2", "I wonder >> if Wolff will become more song-like". >> >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free >> http://sbc.yahoo.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 23:25:03 EDT >> From: Murat Nemet-Nejat >> Subject: Re: Poetics >> >> Michael, >> >> Interesting, I just finished reading Deleuze'st wo film books (movement = i=3D > mage >> and time image). I agree with one thing you are saying and deleuse also >> suggesting: how to project a point of view (e.g. poetics) while avoiding= =3D > it >> to become an authoritative point of view. That's possible, it seems to b= e=3D > , by >> constantly being on guard -maybe by undercutting what one has staked out= -=3D > a >> continuum of beginnings. >> >> Murat >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of POETICS Digest - 4 Jul 2002 to 5 Jul 2002 (#2002-144) >> ************************************************************ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 16:16:41 -0400 > From: Vernon Frazer > Subject: Re: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > > I couldn't have written my own minifesto better if I'd written it myself. > Thanks,Tom. > > Vernon > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tom Beckett" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 06, 2002 11:41 AM > Subject: A Minifesto for Vernon Frazer > > >> Writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read. >> >> Writing that inspires others to write is writing that I want to write. >> >> Think twice, let's all write. >> >> Tom Beckett >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:42:12 -0400 > From: Clai Rice > Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > > I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear > about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by > linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructe= d > languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems,=3D20 > and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as > those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing. =3D20 > > Linguists, especially U.S.-trained linguists, generally find it easy to > say what a sentence means, or that a particular string of words is or is > not English. I find this particular professional skill very odd, and com= e > to language poetry precisely because it seems to be made mostly of > 'unEnglish'. =3D20 > > What makes something unEnglish is in fact not clear at all. I suspect > that this is one of the two problems that define modern > linguistic science (as per Kuhn's definition of 'normal science', the > other problem being Plato's problem, the poverty of the stimulus, or, how > can a child learn a language so well when it hears so few correct > examples of that language). > > In one approach, something can be unEnglish but still be grammatically > English: colorless green ideas sleep furiously. I find that a lot of > language poetry can be described by this model: "I have backed up / into > my silence / as inexhaustible as the sun / that calls a tip of candle / t= o > its furnace" (F. Howe). A lot of non-language poetry also follows this > model: thou still unravished bride of quietness... Likewise, something ca= n > be unEnglish by dispensing with grammatical coherence: "chaotic architect > repudiate line Q confine lie link realm" (S. Howe). Again, you can find > non-language poetry that can be described by this model as well (though > not as easily, because strings that lack grammatical coherence are more > readily judged to be nonsense--yet another contestable term). > > Within the term 'coherent semantic trajectory' I mean to include such > examples of non-English, but only to the extent that they do not violate > transparency or conventional understandability. I am not trying to asser= t > that conventional understandability is something that exists or is > possible, but that this is what most people mean when they say they > 'understand' what has been written. Most language poetry that interests > me does so because it seems to offer different qualities of understanding= , > redefines 'understanding'. Since we havn't yet devised a theory of > langauge that accounts very well for conventional understandability, I > wonder if we might make some headway by trying to account for other > understandabilities. > > --Clai > > On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Mark DuCharme wrote: > >> >When language poetry dispenses with the coherent semantic trajectory >> >associated with the standard transparent sentence, it also thereby >> >discards the mechanism by which polysemy, homophony, etc. are recognize= d >> >as puns in the narrow sense.... >>=3D20 >> >the >> >writing appears as if meaning has emerged from the language itself rath= e=3D > r >> >than having been "used" by someone to achieve a particular goal. >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >> Which "language" poets are you referring to, who dispense "with the cohe= r=3D > ent >> semantic trajectory"? Certainly not Lyn Hejinian, whom you quote. >> Certainly not Ron Silliman, Bob Perelman, Carla Harryman, Rae Armantrout= , >> Ray DiPalma. These poets all dispense with coherent ~narrative~ >> trajectory-- but that is something else again. Well, yes there is also >> Bruce Andrews, whose works are often funnier (notice I didn't say "fun") >> than one might expect. Yet even he undoubtedly is "using" language to >> achieve his "goals." >>=3D20 >> (What is a ~semantic~ trajectory, anyway? Here I think you may mean >> grammatical trajectory, unless you are thinking of the connotations of w= o=3D > rds >> leading one to the other in an orderly fashion. All of these poets set >> meanings ricocheting-- but that is also true of many poets you wouldn't >> think of as langpos. Here we have to refer to semantic TRAJECTORIES in = t=3D > he >> sense of not being limited to one). >>=3D20 >> As for a "natural (human) language," I don't believe I have encountered = t=3D > hat >> beast. >>=3D20 >> Mark DuCharme >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >> 'poetry because things say' >>=3D20 >> =3D97Bernadette Mayer >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >> http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >> http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm >>=3D20 >>=3D20 >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >>=3D20 > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 14:10:39 +1200 > From: "richard.tylr" > Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > > Clai and Listers. This interests me and I concur in the main. Its maybe = a > "function" of language poetry to point to the problematic nature of meani= ng > in so-called "comventional" literary writing or in fact in any language > system or even in philosophy or say the question of whether music means > anything: as one eg learns more about music I imagine that (to ceratain > musicians or music teachers) to say that music may not mean anything or e= ven > that some may dont mean anything (apart from implying that what the music= ian > adressed does is pointless) also asks the question: what kind of meaning > and what is information, what does it mean when you say this "means" or I > "understand". There was a young girl over here (NZ) Laura (forget her oth= er > name) whose was "precocious" and she wrote things like: > > Waiting under the bridge > I understood it..... > > Things like that. Quite clever ..the young girl (she was only about 9 I > think) was quite a "hit" but I think the parents wisely withdrew her from > the public gaze for ther time being: but obviously she had a good > understanding (!) of basic puns, liguistics etc and maybe is of great > ability, I dont know. She may reappear and take the lit. world by storm, = who > knows... > > But that aside I concur ...I find it hard to differentiate what is not or= is > unEnglish: and writing or music can be "meaningful" without meaning anyth= ing > that we can easily (if at all) transcribe into a "sentence" so "difficult= " > poetry is always mimicking the problem of knowledge: so the best or most > interesting poetry paradoxically or expectably (maybe depending on one's > temperament or training ) "resists understanding" at least, and is more = or > less absorptive, to use Bernstein's term. > > Which book does the Hoowe quote coome from I would be intersted to read i= t? > > Richard. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clai Rice" > To: > Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 1:42 PM > Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > > > I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear > about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by > linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructe= d > languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, > and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as > those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing. > > Linguists, especially U.S.-trained linguists, generally find it easy to > say what a sentence means, or that a particular string of words is or is > not English. I find this particular professional skill very odd, and com= e > to language poetry precisely because it seems to be made mostly of > 'unEnglish'. > > What makes something unEnglish is in fact not clear at all. I suspect > that this is one of the two problems that define modern > linguistic science (as per Kuhn's definition of 'normal science', the > other problem being Plato's problem, the poverty of the stimulus, or, how > can a child learn a language so well when it hears so few correct > examples of that language). > > In one approach, something can be unEnglish but still be grammatically > English: colorless green ideas sleep furiously. I find that a lot of > language poetry can be described by this model: "I have backed up / into > my silence / as inexhaustible as the sun / that calls a tip of candle / t= o > its furnace" (F. Howe). A lot of non-language poetry also follows this > model: thou still unravished bride of quietness... Likewise, something ca= n > be unEnglish by dispensing with grammatical coherence: "chaotic architect > repudiate line Q confine lie link realm" (S. Howe). Again, you can find > non-language poetry that can be described by this model as well (though > not as easily, because strings that lack grammatical coherence are more > readily judged to be nonsense--yet another contestable term). > > Within the term 'coherent semantic trajectory' I mean to include such > examples of non-English, but only to the extent that they do not violate > transparency or conventional understandability. I am not trying to asser= t > that conventional understandability is something that exists or is > possible, but that this is what most people mean when they say they > 'understand' what has been written. Most language poetry that interests > me does so because it seems to offer different qualities of understanding= , > redefines 'understanding'. Since we havn't yet devised a theory of > langauge that accounts very well for conventional understandability, I > wonder if we might make some headway by trying to account for other > understandabilities. > > --Clai > > On Wed, 19 Jun 2002, Mark DuCharme wrote: > >> >When language poetry dispenses with the coherent semantic trajectory >> >associated with the standard transparent sentence, it also thereby >> >discards the mechanism by which polysemy, homophony, etc. are recognize= d >> >as puns in the narrow sense.... >> >> >the >> >writing appears as if meaning has emerged from the language itself rath= er >> >than having been "used" by someone to achieve a particular goal. >> >> >> Which "language" poets are you referring to, who dispense "with the > coherent >> semantic trajectory"? Certainly not Lyn Hejinian, whom you quote. >> Certainly not Ron Silliman, Bob Perelman, Carla Harryman, Rae Armantrout= , >> Ray DiPalma. These poets all dispense with coherent ~narrative~ >> trajectory-- but that is something else again. Well, yes there is also >> Bruce Andrews, whose works are often funnier (notice I didn't say "fun") >> than one might expect. Yet even he undoubtedly is "using" language to >> achieve his "goals." >> >> (What is a ~semantic~ trajectory, anyway? Here I think you may mean >> grammatical trajectory, unless you are thinking of the connotations of > words >> leading one to the other in an orderly fashion. All of these poets set >> meanings ricocheting-- but that is also true of many poets you wouldn't >> think of as langpos. Here we have to refer to semantic TRAJECTORIES in > the >> sense of not being limited to one). >> >> As for a "natural (human) language," I don't believe I have encountered > that >> beast. >> >> Mark DuCharme >> >> >> >> >> >> >> 'poetry because things say' >> >> -Bernadette Mayer >> >> >> >> >> >> http://www.pavementsaw.org/cosmopolitan.htm >> >> >> >> http://www.angelfire.com/poetry/subpress/soc.htm >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >> http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx >> > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:14:16 -0400 > From: Steve Evans > Subject: (from J. Moxley) splendid splinter waved home.... > > To all Baseball/Poetry fans, > > In light of the passing of fellow San Diego native Ted Williams, I though= t > some of you might enjoy this little gem by the late Helena Bennett: > > > Ted Will > iams > > The last > time an > yone > hit a > bove four > hundred > world war > two start > ed. > > > from _Narrative as Hell_ (an undated chapbook of the mid- to late-1980s) > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:18:40 -0600 > From: Maria Damon > Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > > At 9:42 PM -0400 7/6/02, Clai Rice wrote: >>I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear >>about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by >>linguists to distinguish something like English or French from constructe= d >>languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, >>and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as >>those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing... > > where does yiddish fit into this? > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 22:25:15 -0400 > From: Alan Sondheim > Subject: Re: Puns (also re: recognition) > > Chomsky: A language is a dialect with an army. > > Alan > > On Sat, 6 Jul 2002, Maria Damon wrote: > >> At 9:42 PM -0400 7/6/02, Clai Rice wrote: >> >I may be too embedded in the discourse of linguistics to be very clear >> >about this. A "natural language," for example, is the term used by >> >linguists to distinguish something like English or French from construc= ted >> >languages like Esperanto, and from animal communication systems, >> >and from computer languages, and from semiotic systems such as >> >those that inhere in architecture, film, or clothing... >> >> where does yiddish fit into this? >> > > Internet text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt > Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html > Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm > CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com > > ------------------------------ > > End of POETICS Digest - 5 Jul 2002 to 6 Jul 2002 (#2002-145) > ************************************************************ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 00:31:59 -0400 Reply-To: managingeditor@sidereality.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Clayton A. Couch" Subject: Introducing Volume 1, Issue 3 of _sidereality_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear _sidereality_ readers: It's July and, predictably, it's hot in several ways, but if you're stuck inside with nothing to do and nowhere to go, don't fret...there's a new issue of your favorite poetry e-journal (http://www.sidereality.com) just waiting to be read. That's right, volume 1, issue 3 (July-September) of _sidereality_ is now available for your reading pleasure, and things look a little different -- but hopefully, better -- this time around. Spread the word! We're also moving to a quarterly publication schedule, with a final 2002 issue due out in October. Although new editions of _sidereality_ will now be released less frequently, the amount of content published per year will not change appreciably. The quality of poetry remains at the very high level that you've come to expect from _sidereality_, as we've obtained work from the following standout writers: Patrick Armstrong, David Aronson, Nancy Bennett, David Braden, Lida Broadhurst, Joel Chace, B. R. Dionysius, Richard Fein, Kevin Fitzgerald, Cheryl Floyd-Miller, Vernon Frazer, Kyle Wade Grove, Patricia Huyett, Stephen Kirbach, John Edward Lawson, Andrew Lundwall, Prasenjit Maiti, Charlotte Mandel, Samuel Minier, Andrew Penland, Michael Rothenberg, Gregory St. Thomasino, Susan Terris, Mikal Trimm, Lina ramona Vitkauskas, A. A. Walker, and Jim Wittenberg. Take time to peruse the new issue, and please let me know what you think. Thanks and best wishes, Clayton A. Couch Managing Editor, _sidereality_ managingeditor@sidereality.com http://www.sidereality.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 23:37:00 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Seldess Subject: antennae performance in chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANTENNAE PERFORMANCE (music and poetry from ANTENNAE, a biannual journal of experimental poetry and music) & THE RACE 9 PM JULY 12 (this friday) $5 at the CHASE CAFE (7301 North Sheridan, Rogers Park, Chicago - three blocks from the red line Jarvis stop - 773-743-5650) Organized as a continuous but sparse collage performance, the first portion of this event will include around 90 minutes of works from the first two issues (and one piece of music from the forthcoming third issue) of ANTENNAE. The works, a variety both discordant and sympathetic, will be positioned within the performance space and time in the interests of the individual pieces and the dialogues they potentially instigate. Following the Antennae performance, Chicago rock bank THE RACE will play. Antennae performance organized by Zachary Seldess. For further information on this or future events, write to zseldess@hotmail.com. For more information about Antennae, contact Jesse Seldess at j_seldess@hotmail.com. --------------------------------------------------- Works to be featured in the Antennae performance: from "tactics" by Jen Hofer "Belfast Breakfast Songs" by Gerhard Stäbler "windows" (from "R.C.") by Kunsu Shim "Lines (1)," "Lines (2)," "Lines (3)" by Craig Shepard from "wen" by Jürg Frey "no goal, no conflict, no climax, just doing: viz." by Isvàn Zelenka tba by Ryan Weber "Voice-Voices" by Pierre Thoma "Belbel's Argument" by Stacy Doris Poems by Michael Basinski "A moment for one percussionist" by Michael Pisaro ----------------------------------- Bios of poets and composers: JEN HOFER is a poet and translator who divides her time between Mexico City and Los Angeles. She is currently editing and translating an anthology of contemporary poetry by Mexican women that will be co-published in 2003 by University of Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre. Her first book of poems, Slide Rule, will be published by subpress in 2002. GERHARD STÄBLER was born in Wilhelmsdorf near Ravensburg (Southern Germany). Concert and lecture tours throughout Europe, America, and Middle and Far East. Various international commissions for operas, orchestral works, chamber music, and music for solo instruments. Currently composer-in-residence at the Deutsche Oper Am Rhein. KUNSU SHIM was born in South Korea and has moved to Germany, where he lives now as a freelance composer and performer. Most of his numerous works are related to the image of space as internal differences: space of sound itself, space between sounds and space of silence. He has also written several performance pieces. They show the simple change of physical conditions becoming an human emotion. CRAIG SHEPARD is a member of the Wandelweiser Composers Ensemble and is published by Edition Wandelweiser. He currently lives in Zurich, where he enjoys playing modern and baroque trombones, taking extended hikes, reading "Batman," and thinking about TS Eliot's "Four Quartets." JÜRG FREY: born 1953, composer, clarinetist, lives in Aarau (Switzerland). ISTVÀN ZALENKA: musician, maker together. 1936: Budapest, Hungary; 1956: Vienna, Austria; 1962: Geneva, Switzerland. RYAN WEBER is currently an MFA student at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. PIERRE THOMA: Born in 1949. Lives in Geneva (Switzerland). Studied music and sociology. Music compositions (for all instruments, including voice and different groups), electroacoustic music, music for theater, ballet and video, musical theatre. Loudspeaker installations for concerts, road, exhibitions and performances. Sound poetry performances. Texts and graphic works for exhibitions and publications. STACY DORIS' books include Conference (Potes and Poets, 2002), Paramour (Krupskaya, 2000), Kildare (Roof, 1995), La vie de Chester Steven Wiener écrite par sa femme (P.O.L, 1998), Chroniques new-yorkaises (P.O.L, 2000). The Associate Curator of The Poetry/Rare Books Collection, SUNY at Buffalo, MICHAEL BASINSKI's most recent books include Heka (Factory School, San Diago) and Strange Things Begin to Happen When a Meteor Crashes in the Arizona Desert (Burning Press, Cleveland). MICHAEL PISARO (b. 1961) is a composer, performer and a member of the Wandelweiser Composers Ensemble. He teaches at the California Institute of the Arts and lives in Southern California. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:46:32 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill. Hiya me old mate! Remember I told you about my visit to NY in 1993 took part in a reading of As the Sun Tries to Go Down organised I think by Jordan Davis and I ('ve not been able to get that book I must get it, stupid I could have got it easily then in NY) the Reading was good and Koch's language rich and energetic and moving along with people taking turns appropriately until dark and I imbibed a " six pack" and met some interesting people there in a park on the Lower East side.... Interesting experience. Sad that Koch has died. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 1:37 AM Subject: Re: Kenneth Koch, 1925 - 2002 > This is sad news indeed. I have been an admirer of Koch's serendipity since > high school. His more considered meditations are some of the most > sparklingly fluid performances in the language. The planet will miss his > presence, terribly. Best, Bill > > WilliamJamesAustin.com > KojaPress.com > Amazon.com > BarnesandNoble.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:14:28 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: antennae performance in chicago In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit this looks terrific sorry i can't get there more events like this please love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 01:31:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: Re: the words "culture" and "religion" In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 08:24 AM 7/7/02 -0500, you wrote: >Fellow poeticists, > >I am conducting studies on the words "culture" and "religion." "Culture" = farming "Religion" = re-reading good luck w/ your research, RIP Koch LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 08:40:59 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Maria Damon Subject: non-poetix job announcement In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020708090036.00afa5e8@pop3.norton.antivirus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable JOB DESCRIPTION Job Title: Director of Center for Victims of Torture, Brussels Reports To: Executive Director of CVT, Minneapolis =46LSA Status: Exempt SUMMARY: This position directs The Center for Victims of Torture, Brussels, an affiliate of The Center for Victims of Torture, Minneapolis, USA. The purpose of the office and of the director is: * To build policy and financial support for the New Tactics in Human Rights Project, particularly from the European Union, national governments, and private foundations in Europe; * To increase the contributions of European governments to the United Nations Voluntary Fund for Victims of Torture to match the U.S. contribution; * To seek contributions from European governments and private foundations to continue and to advance CVT=EDs international programs in support of treatment centers and programs for torture survivors. ESSENTIAL DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES * Work cooperatively with CVT staff and with members of the Working Group and International Advisory Committee of the New Tactics in Human Rights Project. * Work collaboratively with CVT=EDs Washington office, the IRCT office, European human rights organizations, and other NGOs to develop and implement a plan for encouraging government support for the UN Voluntary =46und and any other projects as they emerge. * Develop contacts and relationships within European governments and institutions, non-governmental organizations, and international institutions, as well as foundations and private funders that further the objectives of the office. * Represent the projects and programs of the Center for Victims of Torture to potential funders and supporters in Europe. * Provide leadership and participate in European meetings that facilitate the CVT office objectives; travel within Europe to carry out these duties. * Research European foundations and government programs that might fund or support CVT=EDs international programs. * Manage correspondence that effectively describe the ideas and work of CVT and of the Brussels office. * Develop a strategic plan for the office compatible with the strategic plan and directions of the Center for Victims of Torture. * Understand CVT project budgets and finances in order to explain and interpret them to potential supporters and funders. Create the Brussels office budget and manage its finances. * Monitor all financial expenditures including accounts payable, petty cash, and wire transfers. Oversee cash management and financial record keeping. Ensure financial reports are submitted in a timely manner. * Coordinate meetings of the Brussels office Board of Directors, record minutes of those meetings, and provide additional support to the Board as necessary. OTHER DUTIES The director will create and open a new facility in Brussels: * Secure an office and office infrastructure. * Hire an administrative assistant. * Foster a cooperative work environment. * Conduct the office in such a way to guarantee the legal status of the organization in Brussels. * Raise funds to continue the Brussels office. * Conduct business of the office in a manner compatible with CVT=EDs core values. SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES The director will hire, train, and supervise an administrative assistant. The director may also supervise interns and volunteers to support the office and its functions or delegate this supervision to the administrative assistant. QUALIFICATIONS To perform this job successfully, the individual must be able to perform each essential duty satisfactorily. The requirements listed below are representative of the knowledge, skill, and/or ability required. Reasonable accommodations may be made to enable individuals with disabilities to perform the essential functions. A successful candidate will have done some or all of the following: * Represented an NGO to government and business leaders and corresponded via letters, memorandums and reports with senior-level officials. * Managed multiple budgets of significant size. * Successfully raised money in Europe. * Worked in the human rights arena in Europe and/or developing countries. * Formed and maintained high-level relationships with individuals in government, business and the NGO community. * Demonstrated a willingness to juggle multiple tasks and projects simultaneously. * Effectively supervised others. EDUCATION and/or EXPERIENCE The candidate must have the equivalent of a Bachelor=EDs degree. An American equivalent of a Master=EDs degree is preferred as well as at least five years of relevant experience. LANGUAGE ABILITY The director must be able to read, write, and speak English proficiently. Another major European language, preferably French, is also required. REASONING ABILITY The director must be able to write and speak clearly, to present arguments coherently and succinctly, and to think strategically. The director must also have the ability to exercise good judgment in appraising situations and making appropriate decisions. CERTIFICATES, LICENSES, REGISTRATIONS None required. PHYSICAL DEMANDS While performing the duties of this job, the employee is regularly required to sit, use hands to write or type, use arms to reach for items, and turn head to speak and/or hear others. The employee will frequently walk, climb stairs, reach, and stoop. Specific vision abilities required by this job include close vision, depth perception, and ability to adjust focus. WORK ENVIRONMENT The work environment characteristics described are representative of those an employee encounters while performing the essential functions of this job. Reasonable accommodations may be made to enable an individual with disabilities to perform the essential functions. The noise level in the work environment is usually moderate. The noise level should remain low to moderate during the normal business hours. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 07:59:15 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Arielle Greenberg Subject: emails In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20020625151941.01313920@hobnzngr.pobox.stanford.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, does anyone out there have contact info (email +) for the following poets? Mary Ruefle Dean Young Jean Valentine Anne Carson Please backchannel. Thanks so much, Arielle __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:20:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: RUMBLEINTHEDESERT MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone caught the Globe and Mail piece "Rumble In The Desert" on "tag team poetry in Taos", featuring contests between Sheri-D Wilson and Jill Battson (in one corner) and Andrei Cordrescu and Anselm Hollo (in the other...)? Any other judges/observers/participants out there care to weigh in...or give us a tale of the tape? Gerald ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:54:05 -0400 Reply-To: jadecar@attglobal.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John DeCarolis Subject: Frazer/Beckett/Bell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit a minifest- ival, did you say Vern- on writing that makes me want to write is writing that I want to read twice, maybe even thrice? thanks Toms respective- ly, but it's getting dif- ficult to sort you guys out. Yeah, you guys are Out there on a limb with Will and Kit Mar- lowe too! Whoa! now yr're gonna get yourselves into all kinds of con- spiracy theories of lit and shit. this is not a poem but it sounds ok. Kenneth Koch is dead today and New American Poetry is again dim- inished. So soon on the heels of Wieners & Whalen it hurts.... Best, Jack ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:10:04 -0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Heller Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed To respond to Jim Neighbors' points: Well there are two things I'm trying to discuss at once, and perhaps--inevitably--they blur, have to blur, so all confusion should be laid at my door. I was trying to deal with the attitude towards poetics (as manifesto and ideology), whether it was going to be another aggressive territorial activity, whether it was going to become a prison-house for those who'd been captivated by it, the anxiety that I spoke about. That was one part of the discussion. In the second half of the essay, I try to suggest some guidelines, looking at poetics as an "as-if," as the work of ghosts with parameters of some kind, which might lead one toward a poetics that was not so heavy-handed. As your remarks on "The Fold" clearly indicate, any ground can become a new cathedral, a new absolute, so how do we stay off the ground is always the question. Levinas writes: "Is it certain a true poet occupies a place? Is the poet not that which, in the eminent sense of the term, loses place, ceases occupation, precisely, and is thus the very opening of space...." This sense of things is what my writing was aiming for. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:22:04 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: "harsh-beating theory" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII 1 "harsh-beating theory" 2 in which i tell the truth in worst possible manner 1 all my sins 2 things i am ashamed of keeping me awake at night 3 cold sweats at night inner violence in the midst of dreams 1 of which comes ragged truth shackled to anecdote and retribution 2 of which nothing comes of engines nothing comes of code 3 there are no advancements in the realm of "harsh-beating theory" 4 i can't think of a Thing, only of a Scene 5 "harsh-beating theory" lives through Scene and Scene 6 Scene and Scene is Scene 1 Scene beats mind down in worst possible manner 2 truth is always worst possible manner there is no truth 3 there is only truth the color-slate of stone-earth and microbe 4 in "harsh-beating theory" everyone turns everyone into saying 5 everyone is saying all the time in "harsh-beating theory" 6 even guns are Pulled back and forth in "harsh-beating theory" 7 strategies are kept up all night of ragged shackled truth 8 in "harsh-beating theory" i have much to regret 9 of this entire life regrets are ragged i am in the worst 10 possible manner 11 out of this the unthinking of a Thing thinking of a Scene 12 the shackled Thing unshackled Scene 13 all Scene are Scene 14 in "harsh-beating theory" there is no manner no one is polite 15 in "harsh-beating theory" _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:53:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ken Rumble Subject: SPD Access? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hey y'all, Has anyone else had trouble getting into SPD lately? I use Opera 6.03 and it keeps giving me a license violation message. Is this more MSIE territorialism? Anyone know a way around it? Thanks. Ken ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:30:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: SPD Access? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit has nothing to do with IE...it's a server-side issue, it seems. as an aside, you can always set up opera to be recognized as ie if you want to troubleshoot something like this... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ken Rumble" To: Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 12:53 PM Subject: SPD Access? > Hey y'all, > > Has anyone else had trouble getting into SPD lately? I use Opera 6.03 and > it keeps giving me a license violation message. Is this more MSIE > territorialism? Anyone know a way around it? Thanks. > > Ken > > > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 11:49:24 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Address needed In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Paul Hoover is looking for a current address for Wanda Coleman. A letter he sent came back undelivered. Thanks-Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 12:37:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi, I'm sure that this Lissa Wolsak thread has been already threaded to death, and I've dipped in and out of it while traveling and thus have had a rather fragmented disrupted personal relationship to the thread, but I feel compelled to reply, regardless of any redundancy I'm sure I'm guilty of. At 3:57 PM -0600 7/3/02, Andrew Rathmann wrote: >Lissa Wolsak is skilled in this mode. She can mimic the Howe-style vatic >swoon, using diction such as "sorrow" and "silence" and "o." . . . Formally, >this results in a style that is accretive and tonally mixed, rather than >finished and coherent. I find much problematic in Andrew's points re: Lissa. First of all, *he* decides she's like Susan Howe and then proceeds to discuss how she fails at being Susan Howe. Reading Lissa and what she's doing, I would challenge that she's like Susan Howe at all or should need to be like Susan Howe. I feel that Lissa's cerebral/orgasmic mysticism is all her own. Secondly, "accretive and tonally mixed, rather than finished and coherent" seems to be being presented here as an example of some sort of lack in the poetry, but I must be misreading AR because I can't imagine that "finished and coherent" would be presented as a goal in such writing. As far as: >. . . Yet we are left unsure >about the poet's own relation to these bits and pieces (an uncertainty we >never feel in Howe's work, or Pound's). Is this collection meant to be >kitschy? Or impressive? Fragmentary lyricism keeps us guessing, while the >poet gets to have her persimmons and eat them too. I agree with Chris S's challenging that this uncertainty doesn't exist in Howe. Again, I'm confused how such uncertainty can be seen as a negative. Doesn't such ambiguity challenge, seduce, intrigue the reader? Haven't poets been destabilizing their relationships with readers thus for ages, I mean, isn't it a sort of standard practice by now? I find Lissa's work difficult to talk about, which is great. When I read her I feel like I'm being played and swept along (or swept up in) and that I have to let go of all my rationalizing bullshit. It's a lovely experience. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:56:08 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Backwoods Broadsides MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sylvester Pollet's impressive series of Backwoods Broadsides (963 Winkumpah Rd, Ellworth, Maine 04605-9529--$1per title ) continues apace with A.L. Nielsen's _The Assembly of God at Jasper_, a multi-dimensional take on that horrific dragging death in Jasper, Texas. It's a 12-part (xii part) piece. Here's part (ix): RACE RECORDS 1893 Paris Texas Henry Smith An early application Of old technology The first gramophone Lynching Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 14:15:23 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Benedetti Subject: Puns and Heidi's Hystery of Puns MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I very much enjoyed Heidi Peppermint's "Brief Hystery of the Pun" --and especially the analytical view of the social and political ramifications of puns... I just wanted to comment on her use of the term "Noise" to describe the excluded element--the other--which is inherently missing from the (imperialist) tradition. When she said, "Noise...is the defining constitutive element of the abundantly punning text" I understood her use of the term (and its effectiveness), but couldn't help but hope that people wouldn't misunderstand "noise" as somehow only negative (as in an auditory or musical context), or as something that has no meaning or significance other than its "disrupting" of the traditional, regulating, (nationalist, imperialist, capitalist) text. There is also a similar possible misunderstanding (I believe) in her use of the phrase "essential endemic disorder" to describe some attempted new linguistic systems of recent punsters. I'm just wondering if the point shouldn't be made that the "noise" inherent in the pun--that shift of entire frame of reference to that which is outside the order of the (orderly) text--need not be incoherent in itself, and only acts as an "essential endemic disorder" in relation to the order of the traditional (nationalistic) text. The disruption of the pun, and the "other" readings of the pun, can also have complex "other" meanings which then intrude on the orderliness of the precision-seeking agenda of the normative text and destroy orderliness with a living--and unresolvable--ambiguity. So the "disorder" of the pun's ambiguity is not necessarily incoherent ("meaningless") as much as it is disruptive by forcing a multiplicity of readings and a "living with" contradictions (and other worlds) which would otherwise remain outside the text. Even "ecstatic whirling gibberish" then becomes recognizable as much more meaningful (in its punning sounds--and ambiguous depth) than the exclusionary term "gibberish" would traditionally try to make us believe. Heidi----I'm working on an ambiguous pun-filled prose poem, and your brief hystery added to my thinking in signifi(cant) ways... Thanks, David Benedetti dbenedet@unm.edu ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:13:29 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: 21 Unanswered Questions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 21 Unanswered Questions http://unansweredquestions.org/ 1. Why was Osama bin Laden allowed to leave the American Hospital in Dubai after meeting with CIA station chief Larry Mitchell from 4-14th July 2001? 2. Given the Bush family's close ties to the Bin Laden family is there a conflict of interest at play here which may have influenced President GW Bush to limit or kill any investigation? 3. Is ex-President GHW Bush's advisory role in the private defense contractor Carlyle Group and close business ties with the Bin Laden family endangering American lives ? 4. Why were FBI investigations during 2000-2001 into Al-Quaeda, their funding, and terrorism all blocked and shut down by the FBI? Why did Clinton shut down FBI investigations into the connection between the Binladen family and a known Terrorist organization? 5. Why did NORAD fail to respond to three hijackings despite all means available to them to respond to such emergencies (e.g., scambling fighter jets to make visual contact with the hjacked planes) along with a previously impeccable record of rapid response? Why has NORAD lied about Langley AF jets responding instead of the ones at Andrews AFB? 6. Why was ex-President GHW Bush in the White House with Dick Cheney and Condoleeza Rice during the attacks? 7. GW Bush claimed to have seen the first plane hit the tower when he could not have; Pentagon officials cancelled travel plans on 9/10; White House officials took Cipro before anthrax attacks on Democrats and media; FEMA groups were transferred to NYC on 9/10. All these point to prior knowledge by the Bush administration. Why is no one reporting these facts? 8. Why is the SEC withholding information it has concerning the identity of the purchasers of unusually large volumes of put options on American and United Airlines stocks (and other companies located in WTC)? It is reported that the profits made on these options could run well into the hundreds of millions. Better yet why has there been no demand from Congressional leaders for the release of this information? 9. If Bush knew nothing about this in advance, as he says, (the FBI screwed up and lost all that important information in a bureaucratic swamp), then how did they figure out within a few hours that Bin Laden did it from the caves in Pakistan? 10. Why is it that since one engine from our plane crashing in Pennsylvania was found 10 miles preceeding the crash site, an exact configuration that a heat seeking missle would cause, is there no investigation into the likelihood this plane was shot down? 11. Why did Congress pass the suspiciously ready-to-roll US Patriot Act without even reading it? 12. Why is the CIA continuing to finance Al-Qaeda-style paramilitaries in Columbia, Indonesia, Afganistan, etc.? 13. What has happened to press coverage of the Anthrax episode, and why does the FBI investigation of Don Wileys death differ from that of the Memphis police? 14. Why has no one questioned the statement that a novice pilot hit the pentagon? A casual view from the Navy Annex, overlooking the Pentagon on the Arlington side, shows clearly that expert skills are required to first fly into a small valley, then level out approximately 30-50 feet above ground level. Few "expert" pilots could do this. 15. Did a boeing really crash into the Pentagon or was it a truck packed with explosives like the first AP reports said? 16. Was Flight 93 shot down by fighter jets? If the plane was brought down solely by the heroes on board, why did a passenger making a call from the plane (while still in the air) report that he had heard an explosion? 17. Of the companies and individuals who are involved in the brokering, financing, contstruction and use of the Trans-Afgani Unocal pipeline, which were party to secret US Energy Policy mettings with Vice-President Dick Cheney? 18. Why has the US backed the former Unocal employee Hamid Karzai as President of the new Afghani government? 19. How much money does Dick Cheney (as major shareholder in Halliburton) stand to make from the completion of a trans- Afghani oil pipeline, made possible by the ouster of the Taliban? How much does the Bush financial empire (including the Carlyle Group) stand to gain from the vast public expenditures brought about by the "National Security Crisis" of 9/11? 20. Given the absence of any DNA evidence, and the use of false passports by the hijackers, how was the government able to come up with the list of 19 names so quickly? Why is it that none of them appeared on the original passenger lists of the airlines? 21. Why is it that no one has held hearings on the FAA/DoT's role in the 9/11 debacle? Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:13:31 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bin Laden Group Partnered With Enron in Saudi Arabia MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Read the following industry report from 1997 carefully. http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntm80429.htm Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 17:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: minifesto of the minimites MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Too many second-thoughts lead to second-guessing. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALDON L NIELSEN" To: Sent: Sunday, July 07, 2002 5:08 PM Subject: minifesto of the minimites > First second-thought, best second-thought. > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 16:56:42 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: first thought / thought In-Reply-To: <002901c226c7$2b76f980$1160f30c@S0027338986> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I have always had trouble with the "first thought, best thought" motto, but not because I'm a reviser. What makes one thought first and another second? Aren't all thoughts sequential? In "first thought, best thought" logic, a second or third thought precedes a subsequent first thought--a first thought within a subsequent sequence, that is. In reality, each person has only one first thought; adults have had millions and there's no way of telling which thought they're having now. That is, if thoughts are discreet things... A more dangerous assumption is that thoughts are discreet things. I can conceptualize "thought" but have difficulty determining where one "thought" ends and another starts. My motto is therefore "thought is thought." It's fun, when writing a poem or something else, merely to allow thought to happen. As Ashbery wrote, "Let the chips fall where they may. Leaves say it's okay." I can't remember what poem that's from, and I'm not going to look it up! -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:12:45 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: Paul Hoover in APR MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All: The current issue of American Poetry Review (July/August 2002) features a special section of work by Paul Hoover. It includes an excellent essay called "Fables of Representation: Poetry of the New York School," with sections on "Volubility," "The Personal Lyric," "The Abstract Lyric," and "The Comic Sublime." Hoover provides sharp and useful characterizations of the poets under these rubrics. The essay concludes with the following comments on Kenneth Koch: "What is all the more remarkable about Koch's poetry is that what begins in the ridiculous ('I have a bird in my head and a pig in my stomach / And a flower in my genitals and a tiger in my genitals' in 'Alive for an Instant') readily asserts itself as the sublime ('summer in my brainwater'). Undoubtedly this bridging of the comical and the sublime is Koch's major gift to the New York School" (APR 30). Also included in the issue are three poems from WINTER (MIRROR), published by Flood Editions last month. To order WINTER (MIRROR), send a check for $13 to the following address: Flood Editions PO Box 3865 Chicago IL 60654-0865 (also available through Small Press Distribution) ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 22:14:38 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I like this line, Dodie: "I feel like I'm being played and swept along (or swept up in) and that I have to let go of all my rationalizing bullshit. It's a lovely experience." It's something I've been seeking in these -other recent summer threads. or Michael quoting Levinias: "Is the poet not that which, in the eminent sense of the term, loses place, ceases occupation, precisely, and is thus the very opening of space...." -----Minifestival actually I wasn't wanting a third think so much as a cessation of thinking and starting of writing poetry which I think comes from a different place (in my brain or in my body) that is distinguishable tom bell > That third think Bell wants wasn't mentioned because I'm not an > advocate of overthinking things. Also I also don't care if I have the last > word-- > > Hey, this is fun! > > Tom > tom bell &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&cetera: Poetry at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/publicat.html Gallery - Metaphor/Metonym for Health at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/metaphor/metapho.htm Health articles at http://psychology.healingwell.com/ Reviews at http://members.tripod.com/~trbell/lifedesigns/reviews.htm ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 20:22:47 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: New York School: The Third Generation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Could someone send me a list of the 3rd Generation of the New York School? Thanks. Jim _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 19:56:16 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >From: Jim Behrle > >Could someone send me a list >of the 3rd Generation of the >New York School? Wouldn't that just be the 1973 Manhattan phone book? Seriously, once you get past the second generation (itself pretty diffuse), isn't the whole NYS generation thing more conceptual than actual? Or *is* there a distinct cadre that has been firmly catalogued by someone or other as a recognized NYS third wave? Hilton Obenzinger, are you among this group? And where does it end? Fourth? Seventh? Thirteenth? I'm not being entirely flippant; I've always actually wondered this. Is Jordan Davis NYS? How many years have to pass before the next installment counts as a separate generation rather than an adjunct to the first? It's hard even to judge by the Berrigan / Padgett / Brainard model, since you would have to establish whether you were marking the beginning of the first gen from when Ashbery & O'Hara et al. started writing, or from when they were first referred to as the NYS, or whatever. Not being much help I'm afraid, K. •• k. silem mohammad visiting asst prof of british & anglophone lit university of california santa cruz _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:07:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: `` MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII `` ^[j^[ll^[OPk^[lwi i am not I i cannot `^[ i 1 ^Kbecause it cannot be `i` because ^[86^[98^[78^[99 be beaten 1 `h` >> zz 2 `h >> zz` \because it cannot be beaten 1 because less zz < > because `man cat` it cannot 2 'date' `date` be found << look -v 3 "It should be noted in this connexion that 'conventional truth' provides a safeguard against falsehood, and 'philosophic truth' guards against hallucination." (Ledi Sayadaw, Niyama-Dipani or Manual of Cosmic Order). << zz >> 4 i took her virginity and she took mine and i went off and she went crazy << zz >> 1 ^P^Ubecause it could not be beaten it could not be found 2 ^[98 because i could not be found i went crazy 3 she went off < man cat >> zz 4 ^[8909^[9^[9^[0 pills under tongue << zz >> hallucination 5 ... << zz >> 6 ... 7 . << zz >> _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 21:53:53 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Arteroids 2.0, a literary computer game for the Web In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ARTEROIDS 2.0 A literary computer game for the Web. The battle of poetry against itself and the forces of dullness. http://vispo.com/arteroids Command your red red poetry ship in Game Mode against the blue and green texts of imaginative destruction arrayed against poetry itself. Save poetry from a fate worse than limmericks. In Play Mode, write your own texts in Word For Weirdos and save them to disk for later recall. Then save poetry from yourself by blowing them up. Witness what happens when language is cracked open in this game of 216 levels that examines play, game, art, poetry, and digital literature of multimedia. Turn out the lights! Turn up the sound! Throw away your preconceptions about poetry! ja ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 00:08:12 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I mentioned Howe because I think that some of her innovations have become others' mannerisms. Consider this little lyric by Wolsak: http://www.theeastvillage.com/tc/wolsak/p5.htm Wolsak begins in the vatic manner ("I spoke my mysteries..."), then immediately changes tack: the "mysteries" turn out to be more of her word collection: "tiara, muon, tot." I.e.: the real mysteries are in language, in words, not in the poet. An idea closely associated with Howe. Then a few nonsense syllables, another Howe hallmark. Wolsak, though, is more self-conscious than Howe: the vaticism is cornier, and thus its anti-romantic deflation must be more violent. "I went up on my branch / and sat there": this romantic nightingale isn't going to sing. "It was I who put the breath / within my own breath": the poet is in control, there has been no lyric abandonment (psych!). I think the poet knows that she is walking a rather well-worn path, and so must give us a kind of wink to acknowledge that her relation to her own words is partly ironic. (The book's title, with its mention of "spirit-like impermanences," is another of these winks.) Howe is never corny in this way: Howe is sincere. I did not intend the phrase "accretive and tonally mixed" (applicable even to this microlyric) to imply any value judgment. I agree with DB that coherence is not the aim of such writing. The poet has a fine ear. I appreciate her care with individual words, and her sense of economy. But I think the writing stays within some pretty well-established boundaries. The whole issue of mysticism and romanticism in contemporary poetry is worth further discussion, I think, especially vis-a-vis Devin Johnston... ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 07:13:17 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Rathmann" To: Sent: 09 July 2002 07:08 Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ | I think that some of her innovations have become | others' mannerisms. I am sure you hold all manner of beliefs. We all do. This is a sleight of hand to drop the word "mannerisms" on to a book without making your case | Wolsak begins in the vatic manner ("I spoke my mysteries..."), then | immediately changes tack: the "mysteries" turn out to be it doesn't work like that more of her word | collection: "tiara, muon, tot." "her word collection" is your assertion I.e.: the real mysteries are in language, | in words, not in the poet. Sir, they called, What does this poem mean? I give up. You don't seem to have grasped either the concept of evidence or of causality. As Dodie said he* decides she's like Susan Howe and then proceeds to discuss how she fails at being Susan Howe L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:16:17 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "richard.tylr" Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes but the real question is: who put the what in how and the how in what? What?. Who is this Wolsak character anycase? R. T. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Upton" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 6:13 PM Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Rathmann" > To: > Sent: 09 July 2002 07:08 > Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > > | I think that some of her innovations have become > | others' mannerisms. > > I am sure you hold all manner of beliefs. We all do. > This is a sleight of hand to drop the word "mannerisms" on to a book without > making your case > > | Wolsak begins in the vatic manner ("I spoke my mysteries..."), then > | immediately changes tack: the "mysteries" turn out to be > > it doesn't work like that > > more of her word > | collection: "tiara, muon, tot." > > "her word collection" is your assertion > > I.e.: the real mysteries are in language, > | in words, not in the poet. > > Sir, they called, What does this poem mean? > > I give up. You don't seem to have grasped either the concept of evidence or > of causality. > > As Dodie said > > he* decides she's like Susan Howe and then proceeds to discuss how > she fails at being Susan Howe > > > L ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:09:57 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Arteroids 2.0, a literary computer game for the Web MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit q is this a 3rd gen. variant of T.OL's "turn on, tune in, drop out"? thanx sm. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:20:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: sylvester pollet Subject: Backwoods Broadsides Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Some minor corrections to the address: Backwoods Broadsides Sylvester Pollet 963 Winkumpaugh Rd. Ellsworth, Maine 04605-9529 Actually, I send out 8 issues a year, two at a time seasonally, for $10. US, $12. elsewhere. Along with A. L. (aka Aldon) Nielsen's work went Dale Smith's "Coo-coo Fourth July," a long poem about, among other things, Harry Smith. Here's the opening of the last section: "I'm dying! I'm dying" Robert Duncan, Charles Olson, Gertude Stein you too, I argue and find till the meat cools into coal and the source returns me to begin again. (Dale Smith) The two previous ones were Kristen Prevallet's "Reading Index (texte indice)", and Nicole Brossard's "from Notebook on Roses and Civilization," in French and my translation. I'm up to #69 now, with all back issues available. Onward! Sylvester >Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 15:56:08 EDT >From: Tom Beckett >Subject: Backwoods Broadsides > >Sylvester Pollet's impressive series of Backwoods Broadsides (963 Winkumpah >Rd, Ellworth, Maine 04605-9529--$1per title ) continues apace with A.L. >Nielsen's _The Assembly of God at Jasper_, a multi-dimensional take on that >horrific dragging death in Jasper, Texas. It's a 12-part (xii part) piece. >Here's part (ix): > >RACE RECORDS > >1893 Paris >Texas >Henry Smith > >An early application >Of old technology > >The first gramophone >Lynching > >Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:31:11 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: EPC News Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The EPC "links" page (click on LINKS at the top of any EPC page) has been going through several waves of updates; of course, that page could be updated almost daily. If you have suggestions for new inks that fall within the EPC aesthetic, write us via the form at: http://epc.buffalo.edu/forms/link.html Also new at the EPC, to add to the Coolidge home page (which is really spectacular, thanks to the efforts of Tom Orange), is a new home page for Keith Waldrop: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/waldropk/ And some new images are now up (under "Paintings") at the Susan Bee's home page (some of these image files are rather large, but if you can wait out the download, well worth it): http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bee/ Finally, in response to recent threads on the list and particularly Nick Piombino's recent posts, I've add to my home page the conversation *boundary 2* published between Geoffrey O'Brien and me on the Library of American modern poetry anthologies -- http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/bernstein/#essays Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:58:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: first thought / thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see your point. Does this mean that we credit or discredit Kerouac for separating literature from epistemology? Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Aaron Belz" To: Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: first thought / thought > I have always had trouble with the "first thought, best thought" motto, but > not because I'm a reviser. > > What makes one thought first and another second? Aren't all thoughts > sequential? In "first thought, best thought" logic, a second or third > thought precedes a subsequent first thought--a first thought within a > subsequent sequence, that is. In reality, each person has only one first > thought; adults have had millions and there's no way of telling which > thought they're having now. That is, if thoughts are discreet things... > > A more dangerous assumption is that thoughts are discreet things. I can > conceptualize "thought" but have difficulty determining where one "thought" > ends and another starts. > > My motto is therefore "thought is thought." It's fun, when writing a poem > or something else, merely to allow thought to happen. As Ashbery wrote, > "Let the chips fall where they may. Leaves say it's okay." I can't remember > what poem that's from, and I'm not going to look it up! > > > -Aaron > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 11:20:08 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: first thought / thought MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit which came first, the chicken or the egg? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vernon Frazer" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 10:58 AM Subject: Re: first thought / thought > I see your point. Does this mean that we credit or discredit Kerouac for > separating literature from epistemology? > > Vernon > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Aaron Belz" > To: > Sent: Monday, July 08, 2002 5:56 PM > Subject: first thought / thought > > > > I have always had trouble with the "first thought, best thought" motto, > but > > not because I'm a reviser. > > > > What makes one thought first and another second? Aren't all thoughts > > sequential? In "first thought, best thought" logic, a second or third > > thought precedes a subsequent first thought--a first thought within a > > subsequent sequence, that is. In reality, each person has only one first > > thought; adults have had millions and there's no way of telling which > > thought they're having now. That is, if thoughts are discreet things... > > > > A more dangerous assumption is that thoughts are discreet things. I can > > conceptualize "thought" but have difficulty determining where one > "thought" > > ends and another starts. > > > > My motto is therefore "thought is thought." It's fun, when writing a > poem > > or something else, merely to allow thought to happen. As Ashbery wrote, > > "Let the chips fall where they may. Leaves say it's okay." I can't > remember > > what poem that's from, and I'm not going to look it up! > > > > > > -Aaron > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:30:55 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hilton Obenzinger Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation Comments: cc: immerito@HOTMAIL.COM In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The Generations of the New York School The Trinity. The Fire Island Gang. The Fire Island with Tears Gang. Padgett/Brainerd/Berrigan/Gallup: the Tulsa Gang. The St Marks Gang. I was part of the Columbia Gang. I almost joined the Bolinas Gang. I missed out on the Naropa Gang. I found a home in the San Francisco Gang, selling comic book porno literary= =20 magazines in front of Harvey Milk's camera store. Then parts of the San Francisco Gang took on different names. The Tulsa Gang always kicked my ass. I will never get revenge. I have been a gang member my entire life and I have no regrets. Hilton At 07:56 PM 7/8/2002 -0700, you wrote: >>From: Jim Behrle >> >>Could someone send me a list >>of the 3rd Generation of the >>New York School? > >Wouldn't that just be the 1973 Manhattan phone book? > >Seriously, once you get past the second generation (itself pretty diffuse), >isn't the whole NYS generation thing more conceptual than actual? Or *is* >there a distinct cadre that has been firmly catalogued by someone or other >as a recognized NYS third wave? Hilton Obenzinger, are you among this >group? And where does it end? Fourth? Seventh? Thirteenth? > >I'm not being entirely flippant; I've always actually wondered this. Is >Jordan Davis NYS? How many years have to pass before the next installment >counts as a separate generation rather than an adjunct to the first? It's >hard even to judge by the Berrigan / Padgett / Brainard model, since you >would have to establish whether you were marking the beginning of the first >gen from when Ashbery & O'Hara et al. started writing, or from when they >were first referred to as the NYS, or whatever. > >Not being much help I'm afraid, > >K. > > > > > > > > >=95=95 >k. silem mohammad >visiting asst prof of british & anglophone lit >university of california santa cruz > > >_________________________________________________________________ >MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: >http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Hilton Obenzinger, PhD. Associate Director of Undergraduate Research Programs for Honors Writing Lecturer, Department of English Stanford University 650.723.0330 650.724.5400 Fax obenzinger@stanford.edu ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 09:59:49 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cadaly Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT there are at least two generations of visual NYS artists, too my stab in the dark on this: 1.0 ashbery 2.0 2.5 schultz 3.0 1.0 koch 2.0 padgett 3.0 davis 0.0 hd 1.0 guest 2.0 lauterbach 3.0 1.0 schuyler 2.0 schuldahl 2.5 myles 3.0 1.0 o'hara 2.0 berrigan 3.0 mlinko 1.0 merrill* 2.0 3.0 edk 1.5 elmslie 2.0: Larry Fagin, Dick Gallup, Anne Waldman, Lewis Warsh, brainard, matthews, denby, Mayer, Maureen Owen, Notley, Berkson, Towle, Michael Brownstein, Tim Dlugos, Jean Garrigue, blackburn 2.5 wheeler 3.0 Gregory Masters, Michael Scholnick, Gary Lenhart, Hilton Obenzinger, jarnot ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:24:03 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's something essentially religious about Wolsak's poetry. Her work reaches toward ecstasy, rapture. That's one reason why, an eternity ago, I invoked Clement's _Syncope..._. Dodie, as usual, was on the right track when she linked the mystical and the orgasmic in L.W.'s writing. Mr. Rathman seems determined to see writing as the sum of its symptoms and attributes. A sneeze, a dress and various fashion accessories do not a woman make, just as poetry is more than what critics make of it. There are synergies at work in the world at large and in Wolsak's work in particular. You have to read her in great gulps to begin to get a sense of the larger architectures involved. Wolsak's work needs no defense. And yet when I see someone so bent on bashing it I have to ask why? Who put that wrath in Rathman? What's his bullying attitude all about? Always be nervous about the value judgments of a critic who states that he implies no value judgments. Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:48:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Generations Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed HOW POETRY GENERATIONS WORK Ted Greenwald o--------> shrimp cocktail (dead end) \ \ * \ Raj \ * Kapoor \ * V drugs {wet surfaces} Awaara (50 mi.)---> ` \ . \ ( TANG|NESCAFE \ \ \ "jittery, ugh" / * / * ` , (patchouli) . O! . ` . / [SCREEN] / | | / ||| ~ \ | ^ <----measure o /| \ white noise . . . . ` , ` . Vol [1=======(o)===10] O .-. _,,,,,_ .-. o ( , ' : : ' , ) / : : \ ; 0.---.0 ; .-------. \ / _ \ / ----( `~,*'^ ) \ | (_) | / ------- ." `\ -'- /` ". / `"""""` \ /------ / .' .-== '. \ / po / / / .-=='\ \ / em / ( / \ )/____ / '-;`. .';-' /_ `-.______ .-` __\ /` `\ / `\ / `\ \ | / \ | / `'--'` `'--'` _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:55:50 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Close reading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed CLOSE READING toot toot! . . . \ | / _ / / ) ; | .-""-.-""""-. | ; /' \ \ / / .-""""-/ ( '--' / .' | ; e / / \ | __.' / '._ ; .-' //| critic \ \,-' // | `;.___> /`| / |`\ |/ / _,.-----\ | \ / .; | | | \ | / | \ / |\__/ \__/ \___/ \___/ workworkworkworkwork..................... _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 17:07:59 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Close reading MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I like it! Is this visual poetics? visual criticism? comcrete web poetry? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gary Sullivan" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 12:55 PM Subject: Close reading > CLOSE READING > > toot toot! > . . . > \ | / > _ / > / ) > ; | > .-""-.-""""-. | ; > /' \ \ / / > .-""""-/ ( '--' / > .' | ; e / > / \ | __.' > / '._ ; .-' > //| critic \ \,-' > // | `;.___> > /`| / |`\ > |/ / _,.-----\ | \ > / .; | | | \ > | / | \ / |\__/ > \__/ \___/ \___/ > workworkworkworkwork..................... > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. > http://www.hotmail.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 13:20:51 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: the words "culture" and "religion" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Aaron Belz asks: I Reply: I've found that semioticians play quite a bit with these button words. Essays of particular interest might be Michel De Certeau's "The Jabbering of Social Life" and "What We Do When We Beileve" collected in Marshall Blonsky's _On Signs_. Actually, the whole book is interesting. Even if it/they aren't particularly helpful, it is/they are still interesting reading . . . almost fun, in fact! Best, JGallaher ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:32:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation In-Reply-To: <005901c2276a$093e7520$8f9966d8@pacbell.net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > there are at least two generations of visual NYS artists, too > > my stab in the dark on this: > > 1.0 ashbery > 2.0 > 2.5 schultz > 3.0 If I had any credentials, I would love to be slotted in here under "Ashbery 3.0." Actually it sounds like software. I wish the Ashbery company would send installer CDs in the mail: TRY 30 DAYS FREE. I am John Ashbery. My whole work as a poet is an attempt to escape his influence without losing my soul. -Aaron P.S. I wish all those in the Koch lineage well-- may he rest in peace. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:43:19 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Re: first thought / thought In-Reply-To: <004001c2275c$1d092bd0$c4b356d1@ibmw17kwbratm7> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Michael Rothenberg penned the statement: > > which came first, the chicken or the egg? Michael, I sense this was facetious or dashed-off, so I won't take it too seriously. But I do think the chicken/egg analogy falls prey to the same epistemic error as the first thought/second thought analogy. Thoughts aren't really like a succession of chickens. Thought is a singular entity, more like water; it flows. It seeks its depth by pressure. Admittedly people do say "waters" but I think that expression is poetical. Like "See the Mississip-- her waters a-shining--" etc. I like Ashbery's connection of language to a river in "Myrtle." I see the same connection between language's object (thought) and water. I like to think of thoughts as a succession of chickens, though, but not because it is a true analogy, but because it is a delightful image. -Aaron P.S. I spent the earliest part of my life very close to a large egg farm of perhaps 1200 hens, in eastern Iowa. It smelled very, very nasty. That's one thing you learn growing up next to a chicken farm is how bad chicken dung actually smells. Finally the Amish came and disassembled the coop bolt by bolt-- as I understand it, they don't believe in power tools. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:08:35 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: Re: 1st thought / thought In-Reply-To: <004001c2275c$1d092bd0$c4b356d1@ibmw17kwbratm7> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You could note the sequence of the phrase "First thought, best thought" is characterized by the comma. (I'm not going to talk about parataxis). There really is an extension going on from initial 'instance' to embodied 'use.' (be-bop) Neoteny. The evolution is in the retention. You could talk to Ed Sanders about this. Maybe Robert Creeley. Call me Bud Powell. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:08:18 GMT Reply-To: ggatza@daemen.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: first thought / thought Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: binary MIME-Version: 1.0 Arron, I took Michael's quip as just that, a quip against something very personal that one must come to within themselves (inner personal trust, maybe) to know which phrase is correct. Derek calls his eyes on the comma which is not an equal sign as you hope it might be. There is no thought first or second, now is there? Or is there? I've eaten both chickens and eggs - both roast fine in brown butter Best, Geoffrey On Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:43:19 -0500 Aaron Belz wrote: > Michael Rothenberg penned the statement: > > > > > which came first, the chicken or the egg? > > > Michael, > > I sense this was facetious or dashed-off, so I won't take it too > seriously. > But I do think the chicken/egg analogy falls prey to the same epistemic > error as the first thought/second thought analogy. Thoughts aren't really > like a succession of chickens. > > Thought is a singular entity, more like water; it flows. It seeks its > depth > by pressure. Admittedly people do say "waters" but I think that > expression > is poetical. Like "See the Mississip-- her waters a-shining--" etc. > > I like Ashbery's connection of language to a river in "Myrtle." I see the > same connection between language's object (thought) and water. > > I like to think of thoughts as a succession of chickens, though, but not > because it is a true analogy, but because it is a delightful image. > > -Aaron > > > P.S. I spent the earliest part of my life very close to a large egg > farm of > perhaps 1200 hens, in eastern Iowa. It smelled very, very nasty. > That's one > thing you learn growing up next to a chicken farm is how bad chicken dung > actually smells. Finally the Amish came and disassembled the coop bolt by > bolt-- as I understand it, they don't believe in power tools. This message powered by EMUMAIL. -- http://www.EMUMAIL.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 15:19:37 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Camille Martin Subject: Re: levinas quote MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Thanks, Michael, for your recent postings on poetics, and for the lovely quote from Levinas, whose work I'm now reading. Would you please share where this quote comes from? Camille Camille Martin 7725 Cohn St. New Orleans, LA 70118 (504) 861-8832 http://www.litcity.net Levinas writes: "Is it certain a true poet occupies a place? Is the poet not that which, in the eminent sense of the term, loses place, ceases occupation, precisely, and is thus the very opening of space...." ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:22:30 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jesse Seldess Subject: antennae performance in chicago MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ANTENNAE PERFORMANCE (music and poetry from ANTENNAE, a biannual journal of experimental poetry and music) & THE RACE 9 PM JULY 12 $5 at the CHASE CAFE (7301 North Sheridan, Rogers Park, Chicago - three blocks from the red line Jarvis stop - 773-743-5650) Organized as a continuous but sparse collage performance, the first portion of this event will include around 90 minutes of works from the first two issues (and one piece of music from the forthcoming third issue) of ANTENNAE. The works, a variety both discordant and sympathetic, will be positioned within the performance space and time in the interests of the individual pieces and the dialogues they potentially instigate. Following the Antennae performance, Chicago rock bank THE RACE will play. Antennae performance organized by Zachary Seldess. For further information on this or future events, write to zseldess@hotmail.com. For more information about Antennae, contact Jesse Seldess at j_seldess@hotmail.com. --------------------------------------------------- Works to be featured in the Antennae performance: from "tactics" by Jen Hofer "Belfast Breakfast Songs" by Gerhard Stäbler "windows" (from "R.C.") by Kunsu Shim "Lines (1)," "Lines (2)," "Lines (3)" by Craig Shepard from "wen" by Jürg Frey "no goal, no conflict, no climax, just doing: viz." by Isvàn Zelenka tba by Ryan Weber "Voice-Voices" by Pierre Thoma "Belbel's Argument" by Stacy Doris Poems by Michael Basinski "A moment for one percussionist" by Michael Pisaro ----------------------------------- Bios of poets and composers: JEN HOFER is a poet and translator who divides her time between Mexico City and Los Angeles. She is currently editing and translating an anthology of contemporary poetry by Mexican women that will be co-published in 2003 by University of Pittsburgh Press and Ediciones Sin Nombre. Her first book of poems, Slide Rule, will be published by subpress in 2002. GERHARD STÄBLER was born in Wilhelmsdorf near Ravensburg (Southern Germany). Concert and lecture tours throughout Europe, America, and Middle and Far East. Various international commissions for operas, orchestral works, chamber music, and music for solo instruments. Currently composer-in-residence at the Deutsche Oper Am Rhein. KUNSU SHIM was born in South Korea and has moved to Germany, where he lives now as a freelance composer and performer. Most of his numerous works are related to the image of space as internal differences: space of sound itself, space between sounds and space of silence. He has also written several performance pieces. They show the simple change of physical conditions becoming an human emotion. CRAIG SHEPARD is a member of the Wandelweiser Composers Ensemble and is published by Edition Wandelweiser. He currently lives in Zurich, where he enjoys playing modern and baroque trombones, taking extended hikes, reading "Batman," and thinking about TS Eliot's "Four Quartets." JÜRG FREY: born 1953, composer, clarinetist, lives in Aarau (Switzerland). Istvàn Zelenka: musician, maker together. 1936: Budapest, Hungary; 1956: Vienna, Austria; 1962: Geneva, Switzerland. RYAN WEBER is currently an MFA student at the School of the Art Institute of Chicago. PIERRE THOMA: Born in 1949. Lives in Geneva (Switzerland). Studied music and sociology. Music compositions (for all instruments, including voice and different groups), electroacoustic music, music for theater, ballet and video, musical theatre. Loudspeaker installations for concerts, road, exhibitions and performances. Sound poetry performances. Texts and graphic works for exhibitions and publications. STACY DORIS' books include Conference (Potes and Poets, 2002), Paramour (Krupskaya, 2000), Kildare (Roof, 1995), La vie de Chester Steven Wiener écrite par sa femme (P.O.L, 1998), Chroniques new-yorkaises (P.O.L, 2000). The Associate Curator of The Poetry/Rare Books Collection, SUNY at Buffalo, MICHAEL BASINSKI's most recent books include Heka (Factory School, San Diago) and Strange Things Begin to Happen When a Meteor Crashes in the Arizona Desert (Burning Press, Cleveland). MICHAEL PISARO (b. 1961) is a composer, performer and a member of the Wandelweiser Composers Ensemble. He teaches at the California Institute of the Arts and lives in Southern California. ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:39:36 -0700 Reply-To: antrobin@clipper.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Aaron, I think I'm in the Koch lineage somewhere. Not sure what number. Somewhere before Davis. What do you think? Tony --- Aaron Belz wrote: > > there are at least two generations of visual NYS > artists, too > > > > my stab in the dark on this: > > > > 1.0 ashbery > > 2.0 > > 2.5 schultz > > 3.0 > > > If I had any credentials, I would love to be slotted > in here under "Ashbery > 3.0." > > Actually it sounds like software. I wish the > Ashbery company would send > installer CDs in the mail: TRY 30 DAYS FREE. > > I am John Ashbery. My whole work as a poet is an > attempt to escape his > influence without losing my soul. > > -Aaron > > > P.S. I wish all those in the Koch lineage well-- may > he rest in peace. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:45:28 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: komninos zervos Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation In-Reply-To: <005901c2276a$093e7520$8f9966d8@pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" >there are at least two generations of visual NYS artists, too > >my stab in the dark on this: > >1.0 ashbery >2.0 >2.5 schultz >3.0 > >1.0 koch >2.0 padgett >3.0 davis > >0.0 hd >1.0 guest >2.0 lauterbach >3.0 > >1.0 schuyler >2.0 schuldahl >2.5 myles >3.0 > >1.0 o'hara >2.0 berrigan >3.0 mlinko > >1.0 merrill* >2.0 >3.0 > >edk > >1.5 elmslie >2.0: Larry Fagin, Dick Gallup, Anne Waldman, Lewis Warsh, brainard, >matthews, denby, Mayer, Maureen Owen, Notley, Berkson, Towle, Michael >Brownstein, Tim Dlugos, Jean Garrigue, blackburn >2.5 wheeler >3.0 Gregory Masters, Michael Scholnick, Gary Lenhart, Hilton Obenzinger, >jarnot liking this strand. but, if it is not too much trouble, could you please identify the major differences in style and content that differentiates the nys poetry from langpo? komninos -- komninos zervos bsc(hons) ma(creative writing) http://www.gu.edu.au/ppages/K_Zervos Convenor CyberStudies major School of Arts Griffith University Gold Coast Campus PMB 50 Gold Coast Mail Centre Queensland 9726 Australia tel: +61 7 55528872 fax: +61 7 55528141 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 16:58:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: J Gallaher Organization: University of Central Arkansas Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation Software In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT >I would love to be slotted in here under "Ashbery 3.0." First Thought: Well, Ashbery's newest book IS titled _Your Name Here_, maybe we all have a shot? I'll take 6.334, please. (No need to wrap it, I'll eat it here.) Second Thought: There's nobody here but us chickens. Best Thought: I wouldn't want to belong to any group that would have me as a member. (Something like that, at any rate. Or maybe, last night I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How it got into my pajamas I'll never know.) best, JGallaher ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:44:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: animals MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII animals control of out spun >> << wheels under dying animals 1 pills took never i >> zz << itself barks car the 2 enough amphetamine 1 >> zz << s. aram with walk a 1nce 3 it beat not could i << music with stick should i said he 4 zz >> .echo `time` `date` 5 2002 EDT 18:33:14 9 Jul Tue system 0.00s user 0.00s real 0.02s 2002 EDT 15:27:20 14 Jun Fri after until likely thunderstorms and Tonight...Showers Southwest 70. near Lows clearing. partial midnight...then percent. 60 rain of Chance north. becoming mph 15 to 10 winds real it's 1 out raining it's 2 screaming passenger away speeding car wounded or dead animals 3 wheels all under am i 4 unlikely clearing partial 5 `time` `time` `time` `date` 6 \usr\bin\etc\not-a-good-person ls 1 _ ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:51:42 +0000 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: If it walks like a duck (with or without theory)... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed "liking this strand. but, if it is not too much trouble, could you please identify the major differences in style and content that differentiates the nys poetry from langpo? komninos" -- Langpo is famously obsessed with theory and lacking in humor, is how I hear it. At least nobody ever called Frank O'Hara a "Stalinist thug." Another version is that NY School poets always come from exotic places like Tulsa. A typical NY School accent belongs to Lee Ann Brown. Each generation is required to include one or two locals, on principle. All of the language poets read all of the NY School poets. Some of the NY School poets read some of the language poets. Everybody agrees that Anselm Hollo is terrific. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 19:04:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ALDON L NIELSEN Subject: chickens: roost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I spent a lot of time on farms as a child (usually near the red wheel barrow), but never knew that chickens came -- what a disturbing thought -- <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "So all rogues lean to rhyme." --James Joyce Aldon L. Nielsen Kelly Professor of American Literature The Pennsylvania State University 116 Burrowes University Park, PA 16802-6200 (814) 865-0091 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 18:47:27 -0600 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Andrew Rathmann Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <138.10fb4512.2a5c7633@aol.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" There are two N's in Rathmann, BeckeTT. I don't mind the ad hominem stuff, but misspellings rile the spirits of the ancestors. Hate having to placate those suckers. "Bashing"? You mean, like, having mixed feelings, expressing skepticism, being of two minds? That sort of bashing? Or maybe the Rapture has left me behind. "He was just sitting there reading...I don't know what it was, a book of poetry I think...when suddenly he JUST DISAPPEARED..." Cerebral orgasmic? Yikes Bellamy (two L's, I see...). How about, "Better than crack"? (Readers, get ready for just a minor letdown...) It's a good book, but overselling it won't help its fortunes. Of course Lissa (!) Wolsak's poetry "needs no defense." So what's with all the defensiveness? Sheesh. Upton's going to have a conniption, sounds like. Click here to order: http://roofbooks.com/Book/index.cfm?GCOI=93780100661810 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 20:12:44 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tom Beckett Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/9/02 7:54:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, andyrathmann@EARTHLINK.NET writes: > "Bashing"? You mean, like, having mixed feelings, expressing skepticism, > being of two minds? That sort of bashing? > > I mean reductive criticism that seems aimed at trashing someone rather than illuminating something. I think you've taken some cheap shots recently on this List-in re: Wolsak, Armantrout and others-- and that it hasn't gone unnoticed. However you spell your name. Funny how you can dish it out but get a little wild when you're questioned. What's your nn game? Tom Beckett ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 01:40:36 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Some years ago, in the days of the power of Margaret Thatcher, there was a cartoon by the British cartoonist Steve Bell. He imagined the Expensive Leader meeting with a minister - Edwina Currie - who had recently said something embarrassing - she'd shown contempt for others, actually Thatcher: Now Edwina, what do we do when we are called to account? Currie: Talk bollocks, Prime Minister? Thatcher: Very good, Edwina. When we are called to account, we talk bollocks. and then they practice uttering all sorts of irrelevancies, pretend outrage, non sequiturs, empty rhetoric I have thought of that cartoon through the years of exponential growth, unlimited wealth, murder in the name of freedom and on into these finite dangerous times. It has illuminated many public speeches. Do you know the phrase "Throw a wobbly?", Andrew. I'm not sure if it's USAmerican. In case not, it means - apart from "mentally falling apart" - to behave oddly, shout a bit, act ruffled, cuss a little, sneer at one's detractors without actually answering them; it comes in a variety of flavours, all of them artificial. Except when it means *really falling apart, it's a kneejerk diversionary tactic, always. Conceptually,it's content free. Anything that makes a noise will do. The misspelling of one's name is a good starting point, anything on which one can claim offence; or conflating 2 different criticisms is another. Using tags like "ad hominem" is a bit of a long shot - very few manage benefit of clergy nowadays, but you never know & I envisage a coda to that cartoon MInd 1: But what do I do if I'm caught out talking bollocks? Mind 2: Throw a wobbly May the false be with you L ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andrew Rathmann" To: Sent: 10 July 2002 01:47 Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ | There are two N's in Rathmann, BeckeTT. I don't mind the ad hominem stuff, | but misspellings rile the spirits of the ancestors. Hate having to placate | those suckers. | | "Bashing"? You mean, like, having mixed feelings, expressing skepticism, | being of two minds? That sort of bashing? | | Or maybe the Rapture has left me behind. "He was just sitting there | reading...I don't know what it was, a book of poetry I think...when | suddenly he JUST DISAPPEARED..." Cerebral orgasmic? Yikes Bellamy (two | L's, I see...). How about, "Better than crack"? (Readers, get ready for | just a minor letdown...) It's a good book, but overselling it won't help | its fortunes. | | Of course Lissa (!) Wolsak's poetry "needs no defense." So what's with all | the defensiveness? Sheesh. Upton's going to have a conniption, sounds | like. | | Click here to order: | | http://roofbooks.com/Book/index.cfm?GCOI=93780100661810 | ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:38:13 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Trans Award 2002 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press Each year Pavement Saw Press will seek to publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selection is made anonymously through a competition that is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose.The author receives $1000 and copies. The judge of the competition will be announced after the contest. Previous judges have included Bin Ramke, David Bromige and Howard McCord. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. Entries must meet these requirements: 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages and no more than 64 pages in length. 2. A cover letter which includes a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, your signature, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. It should also include a list of acknowledgments for the book. 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. Submissions to the contest are judged anonymously. 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. 5. A table of contents should follow the second title page. 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry. 7. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces that are longer than one page. Your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $15.00 (US) made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive at least one book provided a self addressed 9 by 12 envelope with $1.60 postage attached is provided. Add appropriate postage for other countries. For acknowledgment of the manuscripts arrival, please include a stamped, self-addressed postcard. For notification of results, enclose a SASE business size envelope. A decision will be reached in September. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts will be recycled, and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Manuscripts and correspondence should be sent to: Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Entry P.O. Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Last year two books were published. One chosen by the judge (who won publication and monetary prize) and one by the editor (whose book was published with a royalty contract). Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and postmarked until August 15th only. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:04:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Since time immorial one of the functions of criticism has been to whet readers' appetites for those people amd works panned. At least that's the way it works for me in my memory going back to high school. So now with appetite whet I'm interested in further leads on Wolsak, syncope, the spiritual, etc. tom bell "Tom Beckett" wrote > There's something essentially religious about Wolsak's poetry. Her work > reaches toward ecstasy, rapture ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:39:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Arteroids 2.0, a literary computer game for the Web In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 10:09:57 EDT > From: Sheila Massoni > Subject: Arteroids 2.0, a literary computer game for the Web > > q is this a 3rd gen. variant of T.OL's "turn on, tune in, drop out"? thanx sm. You shouldn't need any acid to play Arteroids. It has not been tested under those conditions. Though it doesn't sound like a bad idea. By the way, there's an MP3 of a recording I made of a game of Arteroids at level 216 in Play Mode at http://vispo.com/arteroids/sounds/Full_Arteroids_2_Recording.mp3 . Sort of between cartoon, sound poetry, and Gregory Whitehead. ja > ARTEROIDS 2.0 > A literary computer game for the Web. > The battle of poetry against itself and the forces of dullness. > http://vispo.com/arteroids ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:57:33 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Popken Subject: //// play on words MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] Cordially! Invited! You are! to the world premier of [] * - "IN THE END THEY ALL DIE" - * [] a play on distentegrated suburbia by Ben Popken [[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] as part of Primal Thought a series of 5 absurdists one-act plays --a Secret Lunch Production ***************** DAIRY CENTER FOR THE ARTS July 11,12,13,18, 19 @ 8pm July 13,14, 20 @ 2pm Tickets: $11 adults $ 9 students call 303-362-1982 for info, tix and group rates. ****************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:14:04 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Domain names - clearing the fog Comments: To: edit@jacketmagazine.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I've realised that not everybody understands what it means to own a domain name. A recent correspondent said: "I can't see any difference between paying an [Internet Service Provider, or "ISP"] to give you an email address and paying them to host your domain name, except that the latter is more expensive. You are still at the mercy of your ISP [....] no matter what you do....." Well, there is a simple, essential difference: with an ISP's email service -- let's call them "Greedy.com ISP" -- your email address refers to the domain name *they* own, and is usually something like josephine@greedy.com When you get sick of Greedy.com because they're unreliable, and change to Kindly.com, you have to tell all your friends that your email address is now josephine.smith@kindly.com (the "josephine"s were all taken) ...and they have to go through the nuisance of changing their address books. Then when Kindly.com's generosity sends them broke, you have find another Internet Service provider -- let's say "Bubble Investments" -- and then you have to tell all your friends that your email address is now josephineKVX99A@bubble.com (The name "josephine.smith" was already taken) ...and they have to go through the nuisance of changing their address books. And so on. But when you own your own domain name, say "josephine.com", your email address will always be something like me@josephine.com ...no matter which ISP is handling your accounts for you. You take this single email address with you, wherever you go, and whichever ISP you choose to use, for *the rest of your life*. You never have to change it again, and you never need to make a nuisance of yourself by asking your friends to change their address books ever again. (As long as you remember to keep your subscription to your domain name ownership paid up.) Get it? Q: I thought having a doman name meant that you had to have your own web site? A: No, no! With your own domain name, you *can* set up your own web site (with that name) and ask your ISP to host it for you, but you don't have to do that. You can just use the domain name for a personal email address, and nothing more, if you wish; of course you need to ask your ISP to host *that* for you, but that isn't difficult, and it's not visible to people who send mail to you. Mail to me at is actually routed via a server with the internet address , but I don't have to know that, and nor does anyone else. My ISP looks after that. Domain names are managed by ICANN; The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers. ICANN is a technical coordination body for the Internet. Created in October 1998 by a broad coalition of the Internet's business, technical, academic, and user communities, ICANN is assuming responsibility for a set of technical functions previously performed under U.S. government contract by IANA and other groups. Here's their list of ICANN's accredited Domain Name Registrars: http://www.icann.org/registrars/accredited-list.html Lots of helpful information about how to obtain a domain name, and why a "domain name" is different from an "Internet service provider" is given here at the site of Internic, a domain name registrar: http://www.internic.net/faqs/domain-names.html Just because you live in the United Kingdom or Australia or Canada doesn't mean that you have to register your domain name in those countries and end up with a domain name ending in "uk" or "au" or "cn". Anyone fromAlaska to Zanzibar can register a simple domain name in the US (such as "jacketmagazine.com") via the Internet and a credit card. And it's usually cheaper! And you don't have to accept those pesky "www's" at the start of your name. I insisted on not having them, and it works. Sorry to take up your mental bandwidth about this; but it does seem a tangled issue for many people, and a great nuisance when it goes wrong, as it did for the more than five million friends of more than 630,000 AT&T customers who were recently forced to make changes to all their address books. Now -- no more on domain names. best wishes, ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:35:08 +1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Tranter Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed All this stuff about "New York School: The Third Generation" is failing to take into account a vital set of parameters first outlined by Professor Winkleschnippe of Leyden, relating to the structural dynamics of the typical late-twentieth-century North American poetry career. Do yourself a favor: don't miss out on the Professor's elaborate and enlightening diagram, in Jacket 18: http://jacketmagazine.com/18/turbine.html best, John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:23:30 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Mark Ducharme: Cosmopolitan Tremble MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit For the month of July, I will be sending an annoying number of publication announcements, enjoy! ----------- Cosmopolitan Tremble by Mark Ducharme 80 pages 8 by 9 format ISBN: 1-886350-96-5 paper $12 Mark DuCharme's first full length collection includes poems which first appeared in ACM, Boulder Planet, Combo, Dead Metaphor Press Broadside, The Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative American Poetry: 1994-1995, ixnay, Kenning, lower limit speech, Misc Proj, Pavement Saw, The Poets' Calendar for the Millennium, Ribot, Shiny, Situation, and Talisman as well as in the chapbook _Desire Series_ from Dead Metaphor Press (1999). Behold the multitude of forms that dance through the streets of this osmopolis! Free agent Mark DuCharme is the architect of an awesome city of words sometimes tender, sometimes tough, always wonderful to wander through. --Lisa Jarnot Mark Du Charme’s poems in COSMOPOLITAN TREMBLE say astonishing things. That is the “business” of poems: to say astonishing things. Some poems say astonishing things once in a while, some with greater frequency, some hardly ever. Of course, it all depends on what the reader may or may not find astonishing. Some readers may be more easily astonished than some others. Personally, I don’t think I am all that easily astonished. To get back to the subject of this note, I find that Mark Du Charme’s poems say astonishing things practically ALL THE TIME ! By that I mean that they really keep me awake. From the expansive vistas of the title sequence, on through the more jagged and mysterious ones of and the cinema noir of , to the coda of , Mark Du Charme takes us on a Long March, a Wild Trip, a Civilized Orgy of Cognitive Dissonance, whatever that means, well it means these poems are great serious fun to read and reread, and I urge you to do so. --Anselm Hollo The domestic is a crash test in Mark DuCharme's party-of-the-first-part telling. He outs "Genders of the obvious" and gets into "Gestures capped in answerable wool." The "desire" in this series is warier than that of, say, Barthes, where it is "taxidermy" which is "lovely" and where "The heart being nothing/ Agitates slightly." --Michael Gizzi Zip and sharp wit drive this new collection of Mark DuCharme's. It's a brainy engagement with the real world expanded by the forces of language -- "In weather's pearlish mystery," "In purer emblems of a tumbling incitement," "In the genre of kissing or falling down," DuCharme finds a world full of acute emotion and vivid experience, and recounts it with a freshness you can almost hear aloud. --Cole Swensen Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 03:26:57 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Jeffrey Levine: Mortal Everlasting MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Mortal, Everlasting by Jeffrey Levine 80 pages 6 by 9 format, Super swank flat gloss cover ISBN: 1-886350-73-6 paper: $12.00 ISBN: 1-886350-74-4 hardcover limited edition: $60 Price include shipping if ordered direct from publisher Winner of the 2000 Transcontinental Poetry Award for an outstanding first book-length collection of poetry or prose Jeffrey Levine has won the Larry Levis Prize from The Missouri Review and the James Hearst Award from North American Review. His poems have appeared in Antioch Review, Barrow Street, Beloit Poetry Review, Ploughshares, Poetry International, Quarterly West, and elsewhere. He is Editor-in-Chief of Tupelo Press, an independent literary press located in Dorset, VT. The poems appeared in many journals, including: The Alembic, The Antioch Review, The Beloit Poetry Journal, Barrow Street, Cimarron Review, Crab Orchard Review, The Emily Dickinson Award Anthology, 5 AM, ForPoetry.com, GSU Review, Hayden’s Ferry Review, The Kerf, Kestrel, Luna, Many Mountains Moving, Mississippi Review, Missouri Review, Nimrod, North American Review, Notre Dame Review, Poetry International, Ploughshares, Quarter After Eight, Quarterly West, Virginia Quarterly Review, Yankee Magazine. “Dawn With Cardinals,” and “One month before his 50th birthday,” were republished on Poetry Daily (www.poems.com).“Dawn, With Cardinals,” “One month before his 50th birthday,” “Penelope Draws From Life,” “Telemachus in San Miguel,” and “Turns Out Circe Has Something of a Past” were awarded the 1999 Larry Levis Award by the editors of The Missouri Review. Mortal, Everlasting offers poems which are measured, patient, musical, witty, serious, formal in feeling, and totally human. These poems create enchanted spaces rich in memory and imagination — all we have to draw our surest knowledge from. Levine will tell you why God trusts none of us, that He is not religious, and that ‘we are as easily hidden from as seen.’ We learn the secret history of Odysseus and his family, and what Circe and Van Gogh do on their vacations. Poetry makes us privy to an understanding not even contained in the lines of the poem, but only in our responses to them. This book is a telling of marvels. Howard McCord, Contest Judge The poems of Jeffrey Levine honor language in ways few poets can. By honor, I mean the presence of the poet is welcome through the tension between experience and perception. The result is a book of magnificent voices, awareness, and sheer triumph. Reading Jeffrey Levine’s poems, I am reminded that the moment poetry takes over our lives is the instant we know there is no going back. Ray Gonzalez A melancholy chronicle of love and loss, Jeffrey Levine’s effusive first poems spill over with sentiment and lush aural pleasures. His ‘art-full’ persona poems are part parody, part pathos, filled with gentle, self-depricating wit, and his re-figuring Greek myth as every man makes the poet a little more heroic, the Gods a little more human. If the poems are rueful, they’re rueful like the Brahms’ clarinet Quintet: there’s pleasure in the sadness and sadness in the pleasure. Ira Sadoff Jeffrey Levine’s poems read like brilliant jazz riffs played by a master classical musician. They sing. They sway. They swing. Thomas Lux Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 04:25:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: machine MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII machine 1 'date' she was in pain 1 `j^[jj night weather 1 she lay there did i lay there 1 i can never forgive myself 1 she lay there did i lay there: 1 `j^[jj night weather: 1 'date' 2 always returned and injured everyone 2 are you paying too much for insurance? 2 i did never rape nobody 2 you are lucky each night you do not die 3 `ls` she grabbed my cock just before leaving 3 in rain throwing meat to the dogs on the floor 3 i ignored her2 available: n'd 'date' she was in painm 4 i ignored her 4 we're on the floor 5 i should have killed myself in weather 5 of two broken houses 6 of the third floor of the house given over to burning 7 of the basement floor of the house given over to sewage 8 of electrical fires of no one speaking to me 8 of electrical fires of no one speaking to me 9 i do not deserve to be spoken to i should have died 10 i should have killed myself in weather or there given over to burning is above my place sewage: 4 we're on the floor she was in pain: 4 we're on the floor: 6 of the third floor of the house she was in pain: 5 of two broken houses: 9 i do not deserve to be spoken she was in pain: 7 of the basement floor of the house given over to to i should have died Your hands 5 i should have killed myself in weather _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:06:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: If it walks like a duck (with or without theory)... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > All of the language poets read all of the NY School poets. > Some of the NY > School poets read some of the language poets. > > Ron Oh, I think it goes further than that. Ashbery and Koch wrote Lango before LangPo was defined. Most of East Coast Langpoets are the offshoot of NY School tree. There are obvious reasons for each generation to recast itself as the first-generation Something, as opposite to the third-generation Anything. So if it's hard for somebody to tell the difference, i would say they got it right :-) Igor S. p.s. and that's why we have now Elliptical Poets instead of the 3rd generation LanPo or 5th (?) generation NY School. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:18:20 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ruskin watts Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: Re: culture,religion,poetics, crit, close MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wanting to confer on the word-complexes and , and resp= onding to Aaron Belz's inquiry <...i am conducting studies on the words...= >, David Larsen wrote culture =3D farming religion =3D re-reading. That is true. It makes sense, but it will satisfy few people further th= an a tautological synonym would. Do we know what farming is=3F Do we know wh= at reading is, let alone the repeatedly involved=3F At worst, this politely correct and witty equation looks like resting = in an authentic idyll of leisurely feed production and pleasurely read ren= ewing consumption. On the positive side, though, the equations properly co= mbine a sense of harmonious comfort with responsible criticism. (Politics,= that is.) The pithy definition is also along the lines of means (Well, one may think of a virgin , of a pha= ntom pregnancy or of a megalomanic purity complex, Miss Tickle, all swolle= n with a ghostly, spiritual .) So. Wanting to chat on this, here goes something off the top of my hea= d. (Minerva fully armed!) Saying involves a curious metonymy, like saying cul= ture equals agriculture, or culture equals horticulture &c. No more helpfu= l than saying that mean making =96 singularly poetic. certainly involves the cut, the opening of the ground and the= pruning of bearing trees. Cult equals sect, not only in being a select, a= religious practice, but as an act of separation. The word ap= pears early associated with a Venus of gardening and goes for the graceful= ly adorned, ordinate, the , cosmetic & mundane, the plainly beau= tiful. Cultus: veneration, reverence, nursing , caring =96 both building and= maintaining. There is a clearing of the forest, the ditch dredged and Roman walls ra= ised. Enlightening clarity: the fixing of the fine, the nice, the , well done. The settling of hunters and gatherers, the setting of nom= adic pastoral, cyclopean cycle. Status. making the = city stone enclosure of the gods, from steppe to temple stoop. The queen of vending and vengeance, no doubt the sweet, the fruit, of v= anity and the vine, Dione=92s poultry honking on the Capital, goes both with= grafting and the slitting of sacrificial throats. Venus and all the Dione= s give us , a booty killed-sure, (Pound)= . Hey Hey. Jerkin Beef. This beauty requires , which meant a gift of crops, ears of = grain (named after a type of spellt), a word which subsequently covered a = , a performative prayer or spell for the ears of gods. The r= eading and cultivation of the divine: divining. To preserve, to (H=F6lderlin), is to , to make static. Statemen= t. This is perhaps a place for reconsidering the . Think of this = as meaning revolting, frightening, awesome-awful, sickening, turning the s= tomach, plain bad, totalitarian. As it is. It is nearly meaningless to say= . Not all (PACE poets from Blake to Bernstein) is sacr= ed. This category is the condition for the possibilty of making any distin= ctions at all. Taste crops up in discussion and disgust. The cruel, the truly confusin= g, though: maybe a word for it is , which as in culture and all it= s manifested mini-cultures (horti- & seri- &c) is in a metonymic slide wit= h . Nature both includes and is distinct from this care. She appe= ars a goddess too (as the , being both growing and building and = e-ducating =96 and telling us the difference). The great Non-Holy, if you li= ke, which punches out and punctures the outer line of as auto-poietic. The author herself has no life. Slight twists like this may make those banal words worth thinking about= again. Nothing nice about this chasm. If it is the given, how do we take = it=3F Can we relink it, or relinquish it=3F The word has quite a popular etymology, going back to St Aug= ustine=92s interpretation, as a re-binding: as in ligament, joining or tied = again to gods, powers or holy life one has been cut off from. Reunion. (Ch= ained to the , if not in the .) Most dictionaries, though, adv= isedly correct this provenance of the word, and prefer : which = is gathering again, gleaning, collecting, picking, choosing and, yes, read= ing. Germanic is also both to consider, advise and to achieve. Lega= re also as in laws, laid down to be taken up. Laying and relaying.=20 Reading is already and (words worth listeni= ng to), again and again and again. Stasis, relegated. At best, = might suggest taking and taking back: that is forgiving. How can this be concluded=3F The reading is , ready, cut and r= eapplied, sire and scion sliced and spliced, grafted already in the double= rent and tuck of cult. To adopt some deconstructive terms: the adorning t= reatment, , is its withdrawal in the re-take of religion= . The popular opposition of the (haughty, of course, high vest= ed and harvested) to shabby civilization (or to the market, the electorate= , pornography or whatever), matches the false reunion envisaged by the uni= versal church in the concept . Abandoning the fallen empty hulls= , union confirms the split. This opposition (is it competition or is it co= ncurrence=3F) has had a bit of ideological history in the conflict between B= LOOD (organic unified, soiling soulful) and bureaucratic INK (matter mec= hanical, whose name is legion). It is not at all clear to me that there is any meaningful difference be= tween separation and return, coulter and copulation. As in egg and chicken= , red roe and trout, theory and practice, vision and voice, poetic and cri= tic (oedipal hommage, aporetic paltry hommelet): is the root of pa= ct, or is a deal, a contract, a packed court the graft root of peace=3F Pardon the expansion. This always happens when you try and narrow meani= ngs down. Ruskin Watts, Cologne =5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F=5F= =5F=5F=5F=5F All inclusive! 100 MB Speicher, SMS 50% gunstiger, 32 MB Attachment-Gro=3Fe,= =20 Preisvorteile und mehr unter http://club.web.de/=3Fmc=3D021104 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:34:31 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: kari edwards Subject: Ladyfest Bay Area Presents In-Reply-To: <002501c227e8$684d7d80$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Check it out. Ladyfest Bay Area Presents=8A Saturday, July 27, 7PM at Mission Creek Caf=E9 =AD 968 Valencia Street at 20th =B3are we there yet=B2 -- eight writers take stock, look through walls, and cross the double yellow line. kari edwards Masha Gutkin Tara Jepsen & Beth Lisick Summi Kaipa Kirthi Nath Cassie Peterson Camille Roy Sunday, July 28, 2PM at New College Cultural Space, 766 Valencia at 19th =B3ElectricEclectica=B2 An afternoon Jesse Helms wouldn=B9t be caught dead at. Pornographic cleaning ladies, gender traitors, sexologists, and angry young men tell you where to get off. Ida Acton Stefani J. Barber Max Cohen Amanda Davidson Reid G=F3mez Melissa Hung Carol Queen Seeley Quest Miriam Sachs Mart=EDn ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 10:53:26 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: John Latta Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <004801c227ac$be413d80$1b1a86d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Just to express my dismay at the flak being tossed Andrew Rathmann's way for what I consider a model (and seemingly tireless) approach to the problem of un- and under-reviewed books, done in a way that broaches larger concerns of generational change and method. I don't see the "bashing" or "trashing"s in Rathmann's work that Tom Beckett does, and I think Beckett undercuts a fair argument regarding Wolsak's "larger architectures" by falling into that lingo. If Beckett thinks Rathmann's fault is in being "determined to see writing as the sum of its symptoms and attributes," I'd reply that, at the very least, Rathmann is careful to characterize and specify what he sees, rather than hanging a whole body of work off some sky-hook like "cerebral/orgiastic mysticism" (Bellamy) or wobbling anecdotally and inchoately on (Upton). My own initial response to Rathmann's "Pen Chants" post had mostly to do with a questions of diction and music and the claim that "istle, finochio, ixia" is "the verbal equivalent of someone's rock collection." I'm always concerned (being a collector myself) when something that could be construed as a defense of "plain style" or "clarity" or "limiting one's palette to primaries" comes up. The line in question here, to me, proceeds with a stumbling kind of music. It doesn't much matter what the words "mean," but how they rustle and pause together is of great evocative interest. If I cast around for a similar example of lines proceeding by music, I land oddly enough on Roethke's "sidelong pickerel smile," smoother rhythmically, stretching longer, but balanced on the terminal long i's in a similar way to the short i's of the Wolsak, and with the words' discrete "meanings" mattering about as much. John Latta ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:59:07 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Aaron Belz Subject: Aaron Belz in U.K. next week In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Saturday morning I'll be in Gatwick catching a bus to Oxford. For a week I'll be in Oxford. Wednesday, Friday, and Saturday I'll have a lot of free time. The following Sunday I'll catch a bus from Oxford to Gatwick. If anyone knows of interesting events, poetry parties, rhyming bees, hipster hoedowns or the like within striking range of Oxford, please backchannel aaron@belz.net -Aaron ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 08:14:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Clinefelter Subject: Re: New York School: The Third Generation In-Reply-To: <4.2.2.20020710163343.00acab90@pop3.norton.antivirus> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii And don't forget these exciting accessories: The Patented Pomo Back-patter The Worm-gear drive Tenure Cultivator The 5-Speed Self-Feeding Ego Extruder The Dual-Exhaust Perpetual Motion Workshop Weedeater ****Special!**** Order before midnight tonight and receive the Formula 500 Banked Tenure Track w/ Pit Crew! --- John Tranter wrote: > All this stuff about "New York School: The Third > Generation" is failing to > take into account a vital set of parameters first > outlined by Professor > Winkleschnippe of Leyden, relating to the structural > dynamics of the > typical late-twentieth-century North American poetry > career. > > Do yourself a favor: don't miss out on the > Professor's elaborate and > enlightening diagram, in Jacket 18: > > http://jacketmagazine.com/18/turbine.html > > best, > > John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:24:50 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: chickens: roost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, after eating the plums when I was young and easily had though I sang in my pantyhose in high c sm. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:03:43 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ben Popken Subject: //// play on words - with address In-Reply-To: <20020710055733.91136.qmail@web9702.mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii [[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] Cordially! Invited! You are! to the world premier of [] * - "IN THE END THEY ALL DIE" - * [] a play on distentegrated suburbia by Ben Popken [[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] as part of Primal Thought a series of 5 absurdists one-act plays --a Secret Lunch Production ***************** DAIRY CENTER FOR THE ARTS 2590 Walnut St. July 11,12,13,18, 19 @ 8pm July 13,14, 20 @ 2pm Tickets: $11 adults $ 9 students call 303-362-1982 for info, tix and group rates. ****************** __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:17:42 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Robert Corbett Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <00ad01c2270f$cc5dfea0$cd1a86d4@overgrowngarden> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 9 Jul 2002, Lawrence Upton wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Andrew Rathmann" > To: > Sent: 09 July 2002 07:08 > Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ > > | I think that some of her innovations have become > | others' mannerisms. > > I am sure you hold all manner of beliefs. We all do. > This is a sleight of hand to drop the word "mannerisms" on to a book without > making your case > > | Wolsak begins in the vatic manner ("I spoke my mysteries..."), then > | immediately changes tack: the "mysteries" turn out to be > > it doesn't work like that > > more of her word > | collection: "tiara, muon, tot." > > "her word collection" is your assertion > > I.e.: the real mysteries are in language, > | in words, not in the poet. > > Sir, they called, What does this poem mean? > > I give up. You don't seem to have grasped either the concept of evidence or > of causality. > > As Dodie said > > he* decides she's like Susan Howe and then proceeds to discuss how > she fails at being Susan Howe > > > L > yes, and _his_ Susan Howe seems to have little or nothing to do with the one present in her poems. R ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:51:44 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Herb Levy Subject: Re: //// play on words - with address In-Reply-To: <20020710160343.29315.qmail@web9705.mail.yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Great! Thanks for the added information, this looks like it's just around the corner from where I live. Though I doubt it, cause that's a residential block of pretty small houses here in Fort Worth. Perhaps you could send out something letting us know what city this is in. Or maybe that's the Secret of Secret Lunch Productions. Cordially! Uninformed! I am! Herb >[[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] > > > Cordially! Invited! You are! to the world premier of > > > [] > > * - "IN THE END THEY ALL DIE" - * > > [] > > > a play on distentegrated suburbia > by Ben Popken > > [[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] > > > >as part of Primal Thought >a series of 5 absurdists one-act plays >--a Secret Lunch Production > >***************** > >DAIRY CENTER FOR THE ARTS >2590 Walnut St. >July 11,12,13,18, 19 @ 8pm >July 13,14, 20 @ 2pm > >Tickets: $11 adults > $ 9 students > >call 303-362-1982 for info, tix and group rates. > >****************** > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free >http://sbc.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:56:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: chickens: roost MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I had chickens where I lived as a child and I never knew it, either. I probably missed out on a lucrative career filming chicken porn. Vernon ----- Original Message ----- From: "ALDON L NIELSEN" To: Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 7:04 PM Subject: chickens: roost > I spent a lot of time on farms as a child (usually near the red wheel barrow), but never knew that chickens came -- what a disturbing thought -- > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > "So all rogues lean to rhyme." > --James Joyce > > > Aldon L. Nielsen > Kelly Professor of American Literature > The Pennsylvania State University > 116 Burrowes > University Park, PA 16802-6200 > > (814) 865-0091 > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 13:00:00 -0400 Reply-To: kevinkillian@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "kevinkillian@earthlink.net" Subject: Re: //// play on words - with address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think it's in Boulder! Good luck to you Ben! -- Kevin K=2E Original Message: ----------------- From: Herb Levy herb@ESKIMO=2ECOM Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 11:51:44 -0500 To: POETICS@LISTSERV=2EACSU=2EBUFFALO=2EEDU Subject: Re: //// play on words - with address Great! Thanks for the added information, this looks like it's just around the corner from where I live=2E Though I doubt it, cause that's a residential block of pretty small houses here in Fort Worth=2E Perhaps you could send out something letting us know what city this is in=2E Or maybe that's the Secret of Secret Lunch Productions=2E Cordially! Uninformed! I am! Herb >[[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] > > > Cordially! Invited! You are! to the world premier of > > > [] > > * - "IN THE END THEY ALL DIE" - * > > [] > > > a play on distentegrated suburbia > by Ben Popken > > [[[[* * * * * * * * * * *]]]] > > > >as part of Primal Thought >a series of 5 absurdists one-act plays >--a Secret Lunch Production > >***************** > >DAIRY CENTER FOR THE ARTS >2590 Walnut St=2E >July 11,12,13,18, 19 @ 8pm >July 13,14, 20 @ 2pm > >Tickets: $11 adults > $ 9 students > >call 303-362-1982 for info, tix and group rates=2E > >****************** > > > > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free >http://sbc=2Eyahoo=2Ecom -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 14:18:28 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Larsen Subject: the leisure and the pleasure In-Reply-To: <200207101418.g6AEIJX26417@mailgate5.cinetic.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 04:18 PM 7/10/02 +0200, "ruskin watts" wrote: > At worst, this politely correct and witty equation looks like resting in >an authentic idyll of leisurely feed production and pleasurely read renewing >consumption. To quote Sappho: "I love luxury. I think it's fucking great to chill out in a robe and slippers all day" LRSN ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:46:03 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit John My objection to Andrew Rathmann's commentary upon _Pen Chants_ is that he offered unsubstantiated opinion as proven fact. You answer this with your own unsubstantiated opinion that his approach is "model". *I am dismayed that a doubtful opinion was advanced as criticism, but am the more dismayed that the response to objection is "So?" Perhaps you formed your opinion tirelessly, as you tell us Andrew Rathmann formed his. Is this a claim for an exemption from the need for substance? (I know this isn't very good, but I spent a long time on it.) & I am almost as dismayed by your misreading of "orgiastic" for "orgasmic". I know the words look a bit the same; and perhaps, to some, they seem similar in meaning; but they're not, you know. Superficial similarities can be misleading, as has already been noted. This does not reflect well upon your powers of Close Reading and may have implications for you personally which I prefer not to dwell upon. I am surprised at being called "inchoate". Was I really? Ah well. I was trying to communicate only one idea, that evidence is needed to validate an opinion. I didn't mean to overload you and give up now. L ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Latta" To: Sent: 10 July 2002 15:53 Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ | Just to express my dismay at the flak being tossed Andrew Rathmann's way | for what I consider a model (and seemingly tireless) approach to the | problem of un- and under-reviewed books, done in a way that broaches | larger concerns of generational change and method. I don't see the | "bashing" or "trashing"s in Rathmann's work that Tom Beckett does, and I | think Beckett undercuts a fair argument regarding Wolsak's "larger | architectures" by falling into that lingo. If Beckett thinks Rathmann's | fault is in being "determined to see writing as the sum of its symptoms | and attributes," I'd reply that, at the very least, Rathmann is careful to | characterize and specify what he sees, rather than hanging a whole body of | work off some sky-hook like "cerebral/orgiastic mysticism" (Bellamy) or | wobbling anecdotally and inchoately on (Upton). | | My own initial response to Rathmann's "Pen Chants" post had mostly to do | with a questions of diction and music and the claim that "istle, finochio, | ixia" is "the verbal equivalent of someone's rock collection." I'm always | concerned (being a collector myself) when something that could be | construed as a defense of "plain style" or "clarity" or "limiting one's | palette to primaries" comes up. The line in question here, to me, proceeds | with a stumbling kind of music. It doesn't much matter what the words | "mean," but how they rustle and pause together is of great evocative | interest. If I cast around for a similar example of lines proceeding by | music, I land oddly enough on Roethke's "sidelong pickerel smile," | smoother rhythmically, stretching longer, but balanced on the terminal | long i's in a similar way to the short i's of the Wolsak, and with the | words' discrete "meanings" mattering about as much. | | John Latta | ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:56:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Invitation to Incubation Online Chat: Monday 15th July and _Net & Codeworkers Inc[ubation]_ Gallery (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 15:33:54 +0000 From: trace@ntu.ac.uk To: sondheim@panix.com Subject: Invitation to Incubation Online Chat: Monday 15th July and _Net & Codeworkers Inc[ubation]_ Gallery Hello As part of the Incubation conference, you are invited to join us for a live= online chat event run by the trAce Online Writing Centre in collaboration = with ISEA, Fine Art Forum & The Electronic Literature Organization. It's on Monday 15th July, 9 pm UK time. If you can't come to the Incubatio= n conference in person, be there in electronic spirit: join us in LinguaMOO= =2E (full details below) We are also pleased to announce the Incubation Gallery, this year curated b= y Mez, whose pioneering net.language ‘mezangelle’ has intrigued= readers online since the early 90s. In her introduction to this selection = of works titled _Net & Codeworkers Inc[ubation]_ and chosen specifically fo= r the web, Mez explains why codework can only be fully experienced in a non= -physical space. Mez will be a guest at the online chat to talk a little a= bout her choices. The Gallery is at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation/gallery.cfm Incubation website: http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/incubation *** The Live Chat event at Incubation is organised in collaboration with ISEA (= Inter-Society for the Electronic Arts; http://www.isea.qc.ca/), fine Art fo= rum (http://www.fineartforum.org/) and the Electronic Literature Organizati= on (http://www.eliterature.org/). Chaired online by Deena Larsen, invited guests include Linda Carroli and Al= an Sondheim as well as Mez. A bit different from the usual chats, this will be chaired by Helen Whitehe= ad at Incubation in front of a live audience of Incubation delegates who wi= ll contribute via a live discussion which will be transmitted via a typist = into LinguaMOO. Communicate and hobnob with your creative counterparts as part of a series = of online meetings at real life conferences to help bring members of the cr= eative electronic community together. We will talk about important points i= n the conference and foster relationships between online writers and artist= s with questions such as: **How can we use the online environment to further collaborations between a= rtists and writers? **How do the online environment and other new media tools modify the relati= onship between writing, language, imagery, culture, and ethnicity? **How has online communication and coordination changed art and writing? **How are lines between art and literature blurring? **What new ways are we using to communicate with art and writing? WHEN AND WHERE Monday, July 15, 2002, at 21:00 London time, 16:00 New York, 13:00 Los Ange= les, and 0:600 Tuesday Sydney To join in, go to http://lingua.utdallas.edu:7000 Log in as guest Type @go trAcELO at the bottom of your screen. We will help you from there :) If you need help to get connected, please email Deena Larsen at textra@chis= p.net Guest biographies Linda Carroli has written non-fiction as a journalist, essayist and critica= l writer. She is Australian Editor of fineArt forum [http://www.fineartforu= m.org], a science, art and technology electronic magazine. Linda has writte= n several hypertexts both independently and collaboratively including the a= ward winning *Water writes always in Plural with Josephine Wilson. Her most= recent work, speak: a hypertext essay was presented as part of the ELO's S= tate of the Arts Conference 2002, the Ink.ubation Salon 2000 in conjunction= with the trAce conference, Incubation in 2000 and MAAP99. She is currently= developing a new work, racconto. "Mez does for code poetry as jodi and Vuk Cosic have done for ASCII Art: Tu= rning a great, but naively executed concept into something brilliant, pavin= g the ground for a whole generation of digital artists." (Florian Cramer). = The impact of her unique code/net.wurks [constructed via her pioneering net= =2Elanguage "mezangelle"] has been equated with the work of Shakespeare, Ja= mes Joyce, Emily Dickinson, and Larry Wall. Mez has exhibited extensively s= ince the early 90's [eg Wollongong World Women Online 1995, CTHEORY's Digit= al Dirt, Prague's Goethe Institute, Digitarts '96, ISEA_97 Chicago, ARS Ele= ctronica_97, The Metropolitan Museum Tokyo, SIGGRAPH_99&00, d>Art 00&01, an= d in _Under_Score_ @ The Brooklyn Academy of Music 01]. Mez is also a netwo= rked jillaroo, an online journalist and co-moderator of the _arc.hive_ expe= rimental mailing list. Her awards include the 2001 VIF Prize by the Humbold= t-Universitat, the JavaMuseum Artist Of The Year 2001, and the 2002 Newcast= le New Media Poetry Prize. She was also a finalist for both the 2001 Electronic Literature Organization's = Fiction Award and the 2002 READ_ME Artistic Software Award (honorary mentio= n). http://www.hotkey.net.au/~netwurker Alan Sondheim's books include the anthology Being on Line: Net Subjectivity= (Lusitania, 1996), Disorders of the Real (Station Hill, 1988), and .echo (= alt-X digital arts, 2001) as well as numerous other chapbooks, books and ar= ticles. His video and films have been shown internationally. Sondheim co-mo= derates several email lists, including Cybermind, Cyberculture, and Wryting= =2E For the past several years, he has been working on an "Internet Text," = a continuous meditation on philosophy, psychology, language, body, sexualit= y, and virtuality. Sondheim lives in Brooklyn and Miami and teaches at Flor= ida International University; he lectures and publishes widely on contempor= ary art and Internet issues. In 1999, Sondheim was the second virtual write= r-in-residence for trAce. He is currently Associate Editor of the online ma= gazine Beehive, and has assembled a special topic for the America Book Revi= ew on Codework. His video/soundwork has been recently screened at Millenniu= m Film (NYC), as well as Western Ontario and York Universities (Toronto). H= e currently works on video with his partner Azure Carter, and soundwork in = live and recorded performance. Internet Text at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html trAce Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/ CDROM of collected work 1994-2000/1 available: write Sondheim at sondheim@p= anix.com. **trAce trAce connects writers and readers around the world in real and virtual spa= ce. We promote an accessible and inclusive approach to the internet with th= e focus on creativity, collaboration and training. This is where writers me= et to experiment, create new work, and expand the potential of the global l= iterary community. As well as Web design and other consultancy, we offer cr= eative writing courses through our Online Writing School. Incubation is ou= r biennial International Conference on Writing and the Internet. http://trace.ntu.ac.uk **ISEA Founded in the Netherlands in 1990, ISEA is an international non-profit org= anization dedicated to the promotion and development of the electronic arts= =2E ISEA's membership and collaborators consist of a wide range of individu= als and institutions involved in the creative, theoretical and technologica= l aspects of the electronic arts. http://www.isea.qc.ca/ **Electronic Literature Organization ELO's mission is to facilitate and promote the writing, publishing, and rea= ding of literature in electronic media. It emerges from the concerted effor= ts of writers, publishers, technologists, and nonprofit experts to make the= electronic space richer by investing in its cultural development. http://www.eliterature.org/ **fineArt forum fAf =3D art + technology netnews The longest running arts magazine on the Internet fineArt forum (ISSN No: 1442-4894) began in 1987. Its Executive Editor is P= aul Brown & its Editor-in-Chief Nisar Keshvani http://www.fineartforum.org Please feel free to pass this information on to any individuals, organisati= ons or mailing lists who might be interested in attending the Chat or viewi= ng the Gallery. You received this mailing because you visited the trAce website and complet= ed a form to become a member. News and information of interest to members a= re sent out irregularly. If you would like to be removed from our mailing l= ist, please email trace@ntu.ac.uk with the subject heading UNSUBSCRIBE REGI= STER. With best wishes Helen Whitehead Website Editor trAce Online Writing Centre The Nottingham Trent University, Clifton Lane, Clifton, Nottingham NG11 8NS, England trace@ntu.ac.uk Tel: +44 (0)115 848 6360 Fax: +44 (0)115 848 6364 You have received this mail because you visited the trAce site and register= ed to be kept informed of our activities. If you would like to be removed from this database, please = send an email to trace@ntu.ac.uk with the subject line UNSUB REGISTER. Please be sure that y= ou send the email from the address with which you registered, or give your name in the body of you= r email. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:32:15 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Magee Subject: a la familia (was NYSchool) Comments: To: rsillima@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: from "Ron Silliman" at Jul 9, 2002 10:51:42 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Howdy folks, Have been following this New York School thread. It seems pathetic and predictable to me that the thread, like so many before it, was used as a platform from which to take pot shots at Language Poetry. The anxiety which the word "LangPo" produces in poets of many ilks just seems crazy to me and, anyway, horribly belated, -- and a big waste of time that might otherwise be spent writing poems or reading them or doing something else of fun and/or value, but surely not complaining about Language Poetry! Sheesh, save some time and buy the classic recordings. I recommend "LangPo is a New York School Derivative" and "LangPo is French Theory Mumbo-Jumbo Designed to Procure Academic Jobs," both very groovy. No doubt there are interesting connections between various writers identified as New York School and various writers identified as Language Writers but unless one speaks of specifics what's the point? Are we poets or guests on a rigged daytime talkshow? I'd like to hear, for instance, people's opinions on Perelman as a (skeptical but engaged) reader of O'Hara, as in the following from "The Manchurian Candidate: A Remake": The Chinese Mastermind. . . knows how to get in bed with capital and let it charm his pants off. Having them "tight enough so everyone will want to go to bed with you," as Frank O'Hara writes, is a youthful gesture under the dappled shade of capital's frond-like pleasances. That's one thing. But to live as a large system of control is quite another. Anyway, I'd much rather hear someone's thoughts on this. A critique of O'Hara's ethos to one degree or another and yet aesthetically it owes O'Hara quite a bit, right? ("That's one thing") as I suspect Perelman knows and intends. There are a lot of other poets you might put in your NYS/LangPo comparison of the same quality as those I've mentioned and something ought to be written about how this affects you when you write poetry. As for New York School 3.0, anyone who would actually want to be identified as such would necessarily have to be lacking in the inventive spirit of the original poets to be so-called (by *others* as has already been mentioned). Likewise, from a different angle, there are plenty of critics out there who will praise, say, Ashbery *now* - when it's perfectly easy to do (even without reading the work!) - but have no interest at all in poets of the present moment who's work (vis a vis contemporary poetry) is analogous to Ashbery's early work (vis a vis *his* contemporaries). To paraphrase Emerson, they praise Ashbery but it is a past Ashbery their minds can entertain; a present Ashbery they would denounce. Hence Harold Bloom couldn't pick K. Silem Mohammad or Jennifer Moxley out of a line-up. As a young writer it's certainly nice to feel included in the "family" with writers you admire, to be 3.0 as it were. Ashbery once told me that my head was roughly the size and shape of O'Hara's (i.e. an irish melon-head, literally or figuratively, you decide), an observation which damn near converted me to Phrenology. Outside of a specific discussion of specific poems, this is as good as, indeed roughly the same as, being called "3.0." But what we really need is the poems discussed as *active material.* Not another lien on the estate. -m. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:33:21 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Dodie Bellamy Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ In-Reply-To: <000d01c2285b$5af2ed00$641886d4@overgrowngarden> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 10:46 PM +0100 7/10/02, Lawrence Upton wrote: >& I am almost as dismayed by your misreading of "orgiastic" for "orgasmic". >I know the words look a bit the same; and perhaps, to some, they seem >similar in meaning; but they're not, you know. Superficial similarities can >be misleading, as has already been noted. > >This does not reflect well upon your powers of Close Reading and may have >implications for you personally which I prefer not to dwell upon. Lawrence, This is quite amusing. At 10:53 AM -0400 7/10/02, John Latta wrote: >I'd reply that, at the very least, Rathmann is careful to >characterize and specify what he sees, rather than hanging a whole body of >work off some sky-hook like "cerebral/orgiastic mysticism" (Bellamy) or >wobbling anecdotally and inchoately on (Upton). As Lawrence pointed out, I did, indeed, write cerebral/orgasmic mysticism (not that I have any problems with the orgiastic, it's a fine word/concept, but it's not what I intended here). Someone else, was it AR?, seemed to think I made such a comment as a value judgement, but, actually, it was descriptive of what I saw in the work as a breakdown in western civ's dividing intellect, sexuality, and spirituality into separate, distinct categories. I think much of what's interesting in Lissa's work (and Lissa as a person) is how these categories blur and confuse. She throws us off-kilter. Declaring my observation a "sky-hook" is a form of name calling--not a very civilized gesture for someone so actively claiming a rational stance. I think that at the bottom of this discussion is different levels of need for categorization. I'm reminded of the talk Joan Retallack gave at Naropa last week--and anything I say about the talk has filtered through my quirky excitations, so I wouldn't hold Joan accountable for what I'm about to say. But she was talking about surprise and chance as strategies in art--and the wonderful coincidences that can arise. She talked about the chaos of everyday life and how that can generate anxiety, and how one of the functions of genres is to give order to the chaos, to reduce the anxiety. I think Lissa's work, in resisting some of the categories developed and clung to by various people on the list, has created a certain amount of anxiety. Therefore she and I (with my messy terms) need to be attacked. Order needs to be restored. You can see the same process in 50s horror flicks. Attack of the Giant Ants. Get out the bombs. Dodie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 00:49:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Canto 67: for Alan Sondheim Comments: To: "WRYTING-L : Writing and Theory across Disciplines" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Canto 67 For Alan Sondheim=20 CORRECTIONS & CLARIFICATIONS=20 promissupsupsupsupsuperrrrrd=20 postsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrrs, and millions flock to look taksupsupsupsupsuperrrrr=20 A young boy who is the sole survivor "Stalled in Singapore"=20 of a devastated ship becomes obsessed a mythological Hero Ysupsupsupsupsuperrrrrt spsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrcial supsupsupsupsuperrrrrffsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrcts supsupsupsupsuperrrrrrsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr no event represents the direction in urban only part of thsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr appsupsupsupsupsuperrrrral of it's not much of a shrine Price Do We Pay for Hero Worship? Adoration of idols is part ...=20 .. =A6 =AB | I Run a Clique | =BB =A6. .. =A6 =AB | I Run a Clique | =BB = =A6... =A6 =AB | I Run a Clique | =BB =A6... =A6 =AB | I Run a Clique | =BB =A6. Supsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrrman thsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr movisupsupsupsupsuperrrrr "You'll believe bseulpiseuvpesupsupsuperrrrrlisupsupsupsupsuperrrrrvsupsupsupsupsuperrrr r a man can fly", To the ordinary public to draw big crowds of adults as wsupsupsup supsuperrrrrll as childrsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrn. In fact, upon its rsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrlsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrassupsupsupsupsuperrrrr, Supsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrrman and the Heroic in History Eueni patriis filia litoribus; Home > Categories > Science & Nature > Psychology & Thus strange to the early Romans thsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr top monsupsupsupsupsuperrrrry-maksupsupsupsupsuperrrrrr in Warnsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrr History Supsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrrman thsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr movisupsupsupsupsuperrrrr=20 Sara defended her choice with loads of examples and animated gestures was a succsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrss on almost all lsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrvsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrls. Thsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr story bi Jom, stuck clossupsupsupsupsuperrrrrly to thsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr original Supsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrrman lsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrgsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrnd. wsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrrsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr dazzling making psupsupsupsupsuperrrrroplsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr bsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrlisupsupsupsupsuperrrrrvsupsupsupsupsuperrrrr if a man could fly Award winning topuy and vom billiags providsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrd his prsupsupsupsupsuperrrrrvious work couldn't top in quality Dirsupsupsupstarupsuperrrrrctor Eueni patriis filia litoribus; Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza =20 editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/=20 __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru =20 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 02:35:25 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: If it walks like a duck (with or without theory)... Comments: To: rsillima@yahoo.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit and Language Poets are singularly without sarcasm, and unlike NYS Poets do not write things that refer to inside jokes because langpo is universal whereas NYS poetry applies only on Fire Island, and even there, only on the Beach side, not on the Bay side, especially at the hour of sunrise when the sun is red. Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Ron Silliman Sent: Tuesday, July 09, 2002 6:52 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: If it walks like a duck (with or without theory)... "liking this strand. but, if it is not too much trouble, could you please identify the major differences in style and content that differentiates the nys poetry from langpo? komninos" -- Langpo is famously obsessed with theory and lacking in humor, is how I hear it. At least nobody ever called Frank O'Hara a "Stalinist thug." Another version is that NY School poets always come from exotic places like Tulsa. A typical NY School accent belongs to Lee Ann Brown. Each generation is required to include one or two locals, on principle. All of the language poets read all of the NY School poets. Some of the NY School poets read some of the language poets. Everybody agrees that Anselm Hollo is terrific. Ron _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 05:42:52 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Throwing this in here mainly because it interests me but it may be relevant to the anxiety mentioned and also relate to earlier list discussions: http://ibs.med.ucla.edu/USNews.htm ----- > I think that at the bottom of this discussion is different levels of > need for categorization. I'm reminded of the talk Joan Retallack > gave at Naropa last week--and anything I say about the talk has > filtered through my quirky excitations, so I wouldn't hold Joan > accountable for what I'm about to say. But she was talking about > surprise and chance as strategies in art--and the wonderful > coincidences that can arise. She talked about the chaos of everyday > life and how that can generate anxiety, and how one of the functions > of genres is to give order to the chaos, to reduce the anxiety. I > think Lissa's work, in resisting some of the categories developed and > clung to by various people on the list, has created a certain amount > of anxiety. Therefore she and I (with my messy terms) need to be > attacked. Order needs to be restored. You can see the same process > in 50s horror flicks. Attack of the Giant Ants. Get out the bombs. > > Dodie Life is chaos and it's human nature to categorize and make sense of it. In times of crisis (and I think 'crisis' pre-dated last September's 'attack') order needs to be restored but it need not be a return to the old order that didn't hold. It could be a poetic order that for the expression of intellect/spirit/physical-sexual impulses together rather than comparmentally [I'm not sure if this is a word or if I invented it in my late night thinking here.] tom bell ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 02:59:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: back soon, going out for a while, jennifer MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII back soon, going out for a while, jennifer touched things my take you did horrible is life sorry so i'm together this hungry were dogs the two tore almost she lies all knew i had thing only between it split we sorry so was she nobody hurt never she dirty dirty, so was she she nothing mean didn't i told him afraid always was i it buried her something pulled her lowered, you watching i've said to listen now you warned her i apart tear i'll pulled she apart it pulled she things touched you take my horrible did sorry life is together i'm so dogs were hungry this the two tore lies she almost between only thing had i knew all split it we sorry she was so never hurt nobody she was so dirty, dirty she nothing she mean i didn't i was always afraid him told her buried it pulled something her watching you lowered, now listen to said i've her warned you apart i tear apart she pulled i'll she pulled it tr '.' '\012' < zz > yy; mv yy zz awk -f a/back zz > yy; cat yy >> zz sed 's/^/ /g' zz > yy _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 03:49:42 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Too much discussion, we need more Advertisements MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tony Gloeggler: One Wish Left 80 pages, perfect bound in a flat matte finish 6 by 9 format ISBN: 1-886350-98-1 paper: $12.00 ISBN: 1-886350-99-X hardcover limited edition: $60 Price include shipping if ordered direct from publisher >From an exclusive pavement saw listserve interview with Tony Gloeggler: DB: Many people think you are the basketball poet of our generation. What constitues a great basketball poet? Tony Gloeggler: "To begin with you would have to rather play basketball than write or read poetry even now when you are old and slow on the court. It would help if you wanted to be Dr. J, the Dr. J when he was flying through the ABA with his pumped up Afro, when you grew up and then you have to play, write a lot." "A good basketball poet can go both right and left and can break down his man. He plays tough, tight-to-the-skin D, boxes out well, rebounds in a crowd. He can see the whole court, find the open man and hit an open jumper." "A great basketball poet is fundamentally sound, but shows you something new every time he steps on the court. He makes the people around him better and wants the ball when the game is on the line." Some of these poems first appeared in Bogg, Bottomfish, Chiron Review, Coal City Review, 5AM, Graffiti Rag, The Ledge, Mangrove, Manhattan Poetry Review, The Montserrat Review, Mudfish, The New York Quarterly, One Trick Pony, Pavement Saw, Pearl, Potato Eyes, Puerto Del Sol, Rain City Review, Rattle, River City, Urbanus, West Branch, Wisconsin Review and Yellow Silk. The following were anthologized: “Rock N Roll” in Essential Love (Poetworks, An Imprint of Grayson Books, 2000), “One On One” in Full Court: A Literary Anthology of Basketball (Breakaway Books, 1996); “Quincy, California” and “Midnight” in SPLIT VERSE (Midmarch Arts Press, 2000); and “Lucky” in The Cancer Poetry Project (Fairview Press, 2001). "Gloeggler's poetry is a harsh music, dissonant and true. These are rock 'n roll songs of love and lust, of the persistence of lonliness and the power of memory. A book with duende to spare, One Wish Left takes us into Bruce Springsteen's 'darkness on the edge of town' and offers us his battered valentines." -- Kim Addonizio A non basketball poem from One Wish Left: Coffee I never told anyone how you crept into my bed when thunder cracked and wind whipped wet branches against bricks or when creaky pipes were burglars sneaking up hallway stairs How we hid under covers held each other close when daddy came home late and mom called him a drunken bum and he said he couldn’t stay in the damn house staring at her fat face every night and she screamed go to hell and he yelled don’t you ever raise your voice to me again and she cried let go of my hair Johnny please don’t hit me and he said just shut up you fucking bitch and fix us some coffee And you went back to your bed started to breathe easy sigh even sleep sounds as that rich dark smell crept under the door and filled the bedroom "I would love to keep these poems to myself, to clutch them to me secure in the knowledge that there is someone somewhere who gets it, someone who can translate the staccato beat of a basketball on the blacktop, the sweeping touch of a lover's hand, the sweat sparked by hard honest work, the myriad insecurities that rumble beneath the surface of our lives. Tony Gloeggler is that person. His tough, lyrical language stuns and excites. He's just too damned good to be a secret." --Patricia Smith "Tony Gloeggler's poems are full of wonder, good humor, and soul. They hold nothing back. They hit home, one after another, creating a world in full color, full volume, full sweat and tears, full court, full-tilt boogie." -- Jim Daniels ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 03:47:22 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Am I dirtier than Alan? Comments: To: Martha L Deed , webartery@yahoogroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was writing email and all of a sudden this story about tragic love with horses came out onto the screen. I don't know what evil genii got into me. I don't know why. Someone else had brought up bestiality on a list and I thought of this scenario (the first paragraoh) and then I kept going, and i just added the blurbs as an afterthought. I really can't illustrate it because it would be obscene amd I have no talent for that kind of thing as my drawings tend to look like cartoons even when I don't want them to. I suppose I could create the soundtrack for this -- the famous horse fucking rock itself, but I'd be almost embarrassed to do so, even alone in my own aparment. _Horse-Fucking Rock_, the next bestseller Blurb: This comic novel recounts the life and death of Michelle Messier, a beautiful, blonde, 25-year-old mergers and acquisitions specialist who stole a police horse for her nightly sexual pleasures while rapidly ascending the career ladder at Salomon Brothers. After the neighbors directly below her Penthouse apartment on 5th and and 20th complained of the "strangely primal but antithetical to sleeping noises" that emanated from their ceiling at night, she explained that it was a new genre of music, horse-fucking rock, meant to shock, very chic, just the latest trend from Germany. The neighbors wanted a a CD burned for them too, because they could never bear to be behind anyone, so she recorded a night of hot horse sex, and gave them a CD. [THRILLING! The next movie classic! --- Yellow Silk] Unfortunately, when they played the CD in their apartment so that it came up through the floorboiards and the pipes, MIchelle's horse got so excited that it trampled her but the people downstairs thought the screaming was new cut qnd not a real emergency until they saw, to their horror, a hoof come through the ceiling, next to the chandelier. They too, were business types and they realized that if she died, the horse-fucking rock CD would be an underground classic, and that they could make millions on it. The man also quickly took a photo of the hoof and the chandelier with his high-end digital camera; he had a web site in mind for a design competition which sought "edgy" work and usually there was nothing edgy about him. He was a bond salesman. Not even a bond fund salsman, where there are market forces involved, but just plain bonds, and he rarely sold any because they could only be bought in large denominations and you can't get someone to lay down $10,000 for a T-Bill just by saying, "You're safe with Bonds. Bonds don't change." This was his only sales slogan, original to him, he thought, and he was rather proud of it. But on the side he did photography of trite and sentimental subjects and he made web sites with no originality whatsoever. [BUY IT NOW BEFIRE THEY BAN IT! HILARIOUS! EXCELLENT SOCIAL SATIRE! -- Village Voice] But that hoof, that very phallic hoof, penetrating his dining room and wiggling around most arousingly set free his imagination and he all of a sudden he found he had a creative mind after all. Unfortunately, just as he was coming to this pleasant epiphany, the man was fatally crushed by the horse when it fell into their apartment (the horse was unscathed and having the time of it's life, if its mood could be measured in inches). The wife kicked aside her husband's body and tried to make out with the horse, Unfortunately, this is when the police arrived, and they recognized their horse Fred, and were none too happy that it had been forced ito prostutution and fed breakdfast cereal because horse feed would have attracted attention. The police took Fred, and spent a long time checking him over, paticularly on one particulart part, as if woman made a stain. and they talked about having the vet chck for diseases. Then they arrested the wife for horse pornography because she posessed the horse-fucking rock CD. Only as they were leaving did the wife, now widow, mention that her upstairs neighbor had uttered a blood-curdling scream prior to the horse falling through the floor. [DARING, IMFURIATING, OFFENSIVE, BUT ULTIMATELY A TOUR DE FORCE - Michiko Kakutani, New York Times Book Review] The police broke down Michelle's door and got confused because every wall and door was either painted black or a mirror (the arrested wife realized she'd have to redecorate when she got out of police custody; clearly they were behind again), but they finally found the bedroom (over the other couple's dining room) where the beautiful blonde woman lay, betyween life and death, fighting for each breath. "See, said the widow. She's the one who was abusing the horse." The cops were not impressed. The word of a beautiful blonde woman always counts more than a frumpish woman, and the widow was a tad frumpish although they had all gotten a little hot and bothered when they found her wth her pants down (literally) attempting to abuse Fred. The cops called the paramedics, wondering how they'd get Michelle out with the big horse shaped hole in the floor. [WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO? NAUSEATING, SCHOOLBOY HUMOR AT BEST, DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY! -- Wall Street Journal One cop said: "watch the hole!" which was a bad thing to say because another cop proceeded to fall in the hole immediately after that, but he grabbed the chandelier in time and landed on Fred, who appeared to respond to him in a manner wich is usuallly reserved for mares. The rearing made him fall off, but now he was disgusted. He had just found out the the horse was a homo, and Fred was usuallly his mount in the Park Police and he wans't going to work with a homo horse. Homo cops were bad enough. You were supposed to pretend they were normal and refrain from imagining the vile and disgusting thinsg they did in bed. But with a horse, everything just hangs out. [AN OPFFENSE TO OUR MOST DEARLY HELD VALUES. UPSETTING. THE AUTHOR SHOULD BE INSTITUTIONALIZED -- Horse Fancier Magazine The cop felt he had no choice but to resign from the police department, even though it was a year befroe he would begin to get the best pension package. He said he was a victim of constant, repeated sexual innuendo, fondling, frottage, and indecent public displays of misplaced affection by his horse, He had tried at first to sue the horse, but they said the horse had no standing as a litigant, So he sued the NYC Park Police for 20 million dollars because now he could not perform with a woman; he heard neighing when he tried. [PRAY FOR THIS MAN, FOR HE IS GONG TO HELL BUT FOR GOD'S MERCY ON ALL SINNERS WHO TRULY REPENT AND FOR WHOM DIVINE UINTERCESSIONS HAVE BEEN MADE -- St. Joan-sur-lac Parish Gazette] You will have to read te book to find out the outcome and to learn of Michelle's miraculous personality change in her last days, the transformation that caused her to donate all her money and raise many times more for child welfare organizations that fight sexual abuse. We can only gove you a little teaser by saying that it happened as a result of the lurid revelations which she would learn as she underwent memory retrieval therapy and involved satanic ritual abuse my the entire Barnum and Bailey Circus, which would kidnap her yearly when it went throught her town. At secret shows for the local men in power, Michelle would demonstare sex withe elephants. She was very disappointed five years leter, at age 18, when she first did it with a man and reportedly made a rude remark saying she had screwed bobcats with better dongs than his... Their marriage was not a success and she was divorced within the year. [PLEASE GIVE ME THE AUTHOR'S PHONE NUMBER. I WOULD LIKE TO ASK HIM HOW TO ACQUIRE A HORSE FOR SEXUAL USE, AND WHETHER ANY SPECIAL TRAINING IS REQUIRED, EITHER FOR THE HUMAN OR THE HORSE. ARE THERE LESBIAN HORSES? -- Jennie, poster to Horse-Fucking Rock fan web sote bulletin board] Michelle was buried in St. Joan's church in Quebec, Canada, where she comes from, outside the boundaries of the sacred ground, because the priest just couldn't bear to to bury her on hallowed ground after the CD migrated as far north as St. Joan-sur lac. He did say a funeral mass, but it was for all the "sinners" who died on that particular day, as again, it was clear she wouldn't even make it to purgatory. However, he was a kindly man and did not insist on these matters when sharing a cognac and a cigar with M. Messier, and he shared reminiscences of "poor Michelle" from the times before she left St. Joan-sur-lac Unfortunately, every time he tried to call up a picture of that child, he would see he in the company of a horse, no matter how much he tried to see her in other contexts. With great effort, he could call her up with a large sheep dog, but that was worse as it had been their family dog and he was sure that, given the cause of her demise, they would not want to hear about her extraordinary love of animals. From her earliest youth, she had wanted to be either a farmer or a mergers and acqusitions expert, and she had achieved her life's goal, he would remind the grieving parents. ----- Millie ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 04:00:55 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: Carl Thayler MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thayler's first full length perfect bound book since 1972 is now available. Carl Thayler Shake Hands 64 pages ISBN 1-886350-52-3 $10.00, price includes postage Pavement Saw Press P.O. Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 More personal and local than the epic sprawl of his recent Poems From Naltsus Bichidin, Carl Thayler's Shake Hands goes after readers with a frequently agonized, always lively honesty. Barrooms, love affairs, roadside ephemera, bankrupt religion, a western sky under which recognizing one's inevitable loneliness becomes the only possible way to reach out to others; all these things swarm up at readers like barely comprehensible dangers lurching into one's headlights on an all night drive to nowhere in particular. One feels in these poems both Thayler's fear of writing them and his need to do so. These are not the comments of a smug cultural observer. Instead, Shake Hands reads like the knotted midnight confessions of the writer for whom only poems can manage to say what would otherwise never get said. --Mark Wallace “Consider the sun falling in Illinois / then before you can retain a breath / there's Indiana...” strikes me as the best serial staging of cultural geography I've seen since Burma Shave signs. --Tom Clark ------------------------------------ 3. The sky is awfully porky outside of Chicago. Sulfur gathers black against a yellow prominence of swale clouds. I believe smoke discolors everything below a specific weight: gravity, & the supple fires of Hell, too. They get through only at points. Consider the sun falling in Illinois then before you can retain a breath there’s Indiana, a state of puzzlement even to geologists, whose body cells are anyway mostly mineral. Notice how their upturned faces flake. Increments of dirt fall almost as pure nitrogen, their eyes on that tireless settlement a turbulence. Sweat drying on some interstellar wood lot in deep space beyond the great dipper and the receding janitor’s broom Gary, and Hammond, the officious derricks at Whiting and other paraphernalia for the release of gas, the anus for this disaffection and biological consequence too obviously human in its exhalations to suggest East Chicago unless you rely on this singlemindedness for a paycheck, the eventuality won’t bruise. a theme park with amusements pitched to libidinous strays, The Garden of Earthly Delights, a Calvinist retrieval system for the Unnecessary beckons in the guise of a young traveling professional an astronaut whose ambition Mr. Milton, who never inhabited the Great Plains, has sufficiently chronicled so that we less remote from spurious fabulations might reign over regions of a gregarious environmentalism. Acknowledge the danger these days of publicly appearing in furry flanks. Which brings us, if not to spiders, to the spidery morphology of plants at whose glandular centers radiate clustered forms finespun from fire, presaging flowers brimming with obdurate leaves and petals of a serviceable industrial green. Surely, as relics of fire we are sufficient unto these fastnesses. Small wonder during the week the women get perms before going to South Bend to watch the football game & shout like crazy. ------------------------------------ Carl Thayler has been one of the hidden masters of American poetry for nearly forty years. His language is as sharp as a skinner's knife, and reveals exactly what's beneath the skin — far more complex and beautiful than any micro-chip orchestra or the unblinking innards of a Rolex. We get one world per customer. Here's Carl's — cognoscenti will recognize J. Dean, D. Varsi of Peyton Place, the cream of country singers and fast drivers, old poets, good women, and gnarly codgers encountered between now and LA fifty years ago. --Howard McCord Fierce and unflinching, Carl Thayler makes poems that are vulnerable nonetheless in their feeling search for truth. That there be an achieved knowledge of truth in an unredeemed world—as the poet calls it—is remarkable enough, but the music lifts also with sudden strikes of ecstatic clarity. Like Hank Williams or Lefty Frizzell, he follows the unpredictable and at times predacious wanderings of the heart. The result—a lyric dignity very hard to locate these days of shallow, post-modern irony-love. --Dale Smith Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 09:17:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Isat@AOL.COM Subject: Re: If it walks like a duck (with or without theory)... Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Millie, it's not true. Check out Bruce Andrews work. There is plenty of sarcasm involved. i.s. <> ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:51:16 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Close Reading: Wolsak, _Pen Chants_ MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Yes, this clears it all up including who's at 1600 Penn. Ave. sm. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:55:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Searched the web for "poem rocks". Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Searched the web for "poem rocks". Selected results follow. \ \ \ .="=. _/.-.-.\_ _ ( ( o o ) ) )) |/ " \| // .-------. \'---'/ // _|Google |_ /`"""`\\ (( =(_|_______|_)= / /_,_\ \\ \\ |:::::::::| \_\\_'__/ \ )) |:::::::[]| /` /`~\ |// |o=======.| / / \ / `"""""""""` ,--`,--'\/\ / '-- "--' '--' Re: I Divorced You! ... It's sounds like the guy has issues. However, I gotta say that this poem rocks! You should give it to him! ;o). Love, hugs, & prayers! MorSis. ... PostBoard - Gothic People Suck- my poem (thats not the name of it ... ... my poem rocks the house. "Having been unpopular in high school is not just cause for book publications." -Fran Lebowitz (i thought this applied to some of you). ... Paris Virgin(edit) ... On the contrary, I like this. Delete 'again and again'. This poem rocks. The whole thing is one great image, but the last line, man, the last line. ... DisneyDollarless WDW Vacation Support Group - Survivor Challenge ... ... 3 with a whoosh! 'cause the Diva poem rocks and knock off your socks and barefoot, you can't help but "loosh"! The Kunga's, who ... Updated!!! My first and only poem........by PePe ... AINT FAIR!!.. *takes a chill pill* okay then. this poem rocks lol yeh itz awesome, u know wot, u shud publish it *grins*. -AHD. Date ... Plagiarist.com Archive ee cummings "the way to hump a cow is not ... ... this sucks. Added by Hm...2002-05-28 read your message but... YOU suck... This poem rocks!!! :D. Return to the poem page. 1,244,756 visitors since August 2001. ... I Love His Penis (nominated by tree) - www.ezboard.com ... tree. Tasha1 Tasha Klein (5/5/02 12:21:25 am) Reply, this poem rocks!!!! i love the velvet feet and belly hair part the best!!!!! ... He saluted me,so I am back...with 'That' poem. by Kay M Devenish ... ... read you. All men are not THAT bad after all... ;). Rating: 10/10. by Justin Wolf (author), 5/30/2002. This poem rocks. The meter is ... The Young Writer's Club - Member's Poems No:3205 ... And was tome supposed to be tomb? Oh yeah...I don't get some parts of the poem...but I STILL persist in my original comment: This poem ROCKS!!!!! ... Passions in Poetry - Losing Yet Again by Katie ... PATTY, YOUR POEM ROCKS IT'S DESCRIBING MY LOVE LIFE IN 4 SHORT LINES. suzi, first love is the purest and lasts the longest in your heart. ... Passions in Poetry - Best Friend by Stephanie ... sara, This poem rocks.it reminds me of my best friend completely.except we arent boyfriend and girlfriend yet.thank you for sharing your poetry. ... Lobo Aru - Miscellaneous - lucypher.com - Dark Poems and Stories ... Dean, positive. For some inane reason, this poem makes me think of Sleepy Hollow...which is cool. Either way, the poem rocks. Dec-30 ... CoreWave: Bead Game II: Contribution ... sorry i didn't get to write about it. i was too busy.... i think this poem rocks. actually, your entries pretty much rock altogether. Follow Ups: oops! ... Jays' GuestBook ... 9/5/01 @ 09:48:42 AM. Name: Jason. Comment: You fuckin' rock Leone!! Dude that Casey at Bat poem rocks man! Oh the raven made me cry!! Don't laugh... ... keephimalive ... There's a possibility That he'll never rise again. BACK TO MY POEMS PAGE, My Opinion: I think this poem rocks. I may make it into a song. ... The Young Writer's Club - Member's Poems No:11957 ... Duvessa. But its not really about just the french, right? Inutile info: used to live there. This poem rocks I think! But should it be a poem? ... Untitled ... percussion. Ellen Cruz - Sebastopol, CA. Delirium - We looooove their music! "Poem" rocks! Domba!! - out of AZ, fun folks! Helm ... Senica Gonzalez - DREAM ... yeah.....well keep on writing =-) bye. Name : annie. Date: 6 / February / 2002. Email: siren@aol.com. Comments: awwww this poem rocks! ... arkPoetry Publications ... loss... -just a thought -much love- -spooky-. Wednesday December 5th, 2001: hahahha... fuck yea, this poem rocks. i love the ending. ... Guestbook by Beseen.com ... anywayz, laterz! RACHDOG, 21/Feb/2001:07:10:22. summers poem rocks howd u like our little love letter thru the conveyor belt deal? i ... intendo Cult - In The Making: Page 1 ... I've gotta go now, to get my "posies from Nursie", so bubye now. Crag Fothingham, Cell block 61 Sector K PS. Whoever did the Wap-do-wap poem rocks!!! ... Untitled ... wait *s*. "Fuck you...its not bout the poem...the fucking poem rocks..its not fair you're sooo damn talented and you don't know it! I ... English Composition ... human. Katie, okay. PianoGeek, this poem rocks. greg, cant argue with that. PianoGeek, #1. PianoGeek, who is the speaker of the poem? Katie, ? ... 209.196.85.67/Logs/0382 ... 9:29 AM: Aspect: Like the Queen and HAL-9000. 9:29 AM: Io: Yeah. 9:29 AM: Intrepid: That poem rocks! 9:29 AM: Intrepid: YEAH, AND I'M THE QUEEN OF ENGLAND! ... _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 19:16:38 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: cris cheek Subject: Re: Searched the web for "poem rocks". In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit hi Gary, great. I wanna be a signed up newbie to the Intendo Cult I am already! love and love cris ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 12:24:37 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: "Digital Poetics" review MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit My review of Loss Glazier's "Digital Poetics" is now available in the just-posted Summer on-line issue of Raintaxi: http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2002summer/glazier.shtml -Joel Joel Weishaus Center for Excellence in Writing Portland State University Portland, Oregon http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:15:46 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Crossover RJ45: of the dead house where bones belong to no one. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Crossover RJ45: of the dead house where bones belong to no one. IRC log started Thu Jul 11 17:40 *** Value of LOG set to ON ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B hello ^B***^B nicuko ([BIq9zl5Sd@panix1.panix.com) has joined channel #cybermind is marring ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B is marring someone else her disturbance here is not ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B from blood or bones nicked from someone else belittling she just lay there we removed ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B something chewed something of chewed dogs something of grinding machines ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B between machines of circles scattering of limbs. dead among the dead ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B caught and cauterized. nothing belonging anywhere none logged and broken. bent into sleeplessness. he just lay ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B there. he didn't move. he was nothing teeth, bones, cock, nothing. cock, her cunt ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B marred. she was marred. she looked used. ^B***^B MSLFAH (MMFI@user-38ldm0h.dialup.mindspring.com) has joined channel #charnelhus it was the circle of chalk or blood. he used, looked used. ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B of a translucent circle, not of star formation. of circle or shuttle, ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B passing her along. passing him, crossing him. they're torn and broken. ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B they're crashed << mind the dead >> shuttled of machinery. of shuttles, ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B of sawing bones through flesh in order that they mix. NO ONE OWNS ANYONE HERE. ^B<^Bnikuko^B>^B NO ONE AT ALL. IRC log ended Thu Jul 11 17:51 _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:43:10 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Nakayasu, Levy / Hemingway, Purkinge mp3's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable With thanks to Jerrold Shiroma, I've just updated the Kenning website to = include three mp3 samples from the audio edition of Kenning, the 12th = issue. Available are recordings of / by Sawako Nakayasu, Andrew Levy & = Gerry Hemingway, and Purkinge. I think the new design is more = informative and easier to navigate. Ordering options are simpler to = follow as well. If you haven't yet, the "index and samples" page is = worth visiting, as it contains a fair range of work from (mostly) = out-of-print back-issues. See www.durationpress.com/kenning Best - Patrick F. Durgin K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:44:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: the terrible deed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII the terrible deed a afraid all almost always apart apart at back back bare been between between blood blood blood breast did didn't dirty dirty do everything floor for for grabbed had he he he her her her him his his his his his his horrible hurt i i i i i i i i i i i'll i'm i've in is it it it just knew lay lay legs lies life listen long lowered me me mean mouth mouth my my my never nobody nothing now of on on on on only open open pooling pooling pulled pulled put reached said said said screamed she she she she she she she she so so sorry split stuff take tear the them there thing things this time to together told tore two us warned was was was watching we we'll why you you you you you _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 14:11:44 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Prose Poems In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can someone back channel me with ideas on presses that are interested in publishing collections of prose poems or have in the past been. Thank you--Maxine Chernoff ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:42:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: A Harvard Square Poetry Festival Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A Harvard Square Poetry Festival THU 7/25 thru SUN 7/28 WordsWorth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA info: call (617) 739 3562 and ask for "Jim" Thursday Friday 7:00 Sean Cole 7:00 G. L. Ford 7:15 Jill McDonough 7:15 Alison Cobb 7:30 Kevin Gallagher 7:30 Matvei Yankelevich 7:45 Christopher Mattison 7:45 Arielle Greenberg break break 8:15 Amie Keddy 8:15 Karen Weiser 8:30 Beth Woodcome 8:30 Darlene Gold 8:45 Shin Yu Pai 8:45 Daniel Bouchard 9:00 Michael Franco 9:00 Heather Fuller break break 9:30 Fred Marchant 9:30 Buck Downs 9:45 Jason Shinder 9:45 Joseph Torra 10:00 Jonathan Aaron 10:00 Peter Gizzi 10:15 Brenda Coultas Saturday Sunday 11:00 Mark Lamoureux 11:00 Aaron Kiely 11:15 Murat Nemet-Nejat 11:15 Soraya Shalforoosh 11:30 Geneva Chao 11:30 John Landry 11:45 Brian Morrison 11:45 Brenda Iijima break break 12:15 Rob Morris 12:15 Jack Kimball 12:30 Anna Ross 12:30 TBA 12:45 Ethan Paquin 12:45 Brandon Downing 1:00 Timothy Liu 1:00 Jennifer Coleman break break 1:30 Jessica Chiu 1:30 Jordan Davis 1:45 Yuri Hospodar 1:45 Noah Gordon 2:00 Sue Landers 2:00 Michael Bucell 2:15 Douglas Rothschild 2:15 David Eberley break break 2:45 Jennifer Nelson 2:45 Rebecca Wolff 3:00 Christina Strong 3:00 Lisa Bourbeau 3:15 Anna Moshovakis 3:15 Richard Carfagna 3:30 Edmund Berrigan 3:30 Kevin Grant break break 4:00 Becky Rosen 4:00 Bill Knott 4:15 Mitch Highfill 4:15 Lucie Brock-Broido 4:30 Charles Shively 4:30 Franz Wright 4:45 Kristin Prevallet 7:00 Alan Gilbert 7:15 Alexandra Friedman 7:30 Kathleen Ossip 7:45 John Mulrooney break 8:15 Macgregor Card 8:30 Prageeta Sharma 8:45 Jo Ann Wasserman 9:00 Michael County break 9:30 Joyelle McSweeney 9:45 Brendan Lorber 10:00 Elizabeth Willis THIS FESTIVAL COULD BE YOUR LIFE _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 09:29:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: death of the poet Ece Ayhan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ece Ayhan, one of the giants of Turkish poetry, died last Friday. A collection of his work was published by Sun and Moon Press as "A Blind Cat Black and Orthodoxies" in 1997. Here is two of his poems: Miss Kinar's Waters She cried the smile of pebble stones with the raki from the carafe from Miss Kinar now who became water to steep wells with her straight hair what can she do in the theatre houses of Shehzadehbashi she could not have enough hats This bald Hassan, this baldie swept the darkness his rebellious cigarette lit backwards to avoid any laughter and a police enters fairy tales which go on ever since parting the human eyelashes of children And gathered inside her the sadness of the hands of an oud playing woman, appeared suddenly into wells in the evenings crying from Miss Kinar's waters. trans. by Murat Nemet-Nejat To Trace from Hebrew My legs are long they are long wherever I go wherever I go they find me my sister in a blind alley To trace a dove for this town to trace the eyes of the dove one dove in the middle ages one dove with chalk Along the whole wall trees cool I am tracing a sound I want everybody everybody to have a sound in the dove a sound in the middle ages in my sister a sound Wherever I go they are long they find me from my legs always as I trace a different voice and a holiday full of flags in a city in Hebrew trans. by Murat Nemet-Nejat ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:57:41 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ruskin watts Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: re leisure n reading, criticism IS culture MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yesterday LRSN responded: <> Yes! absolutely right. There’s no way to prove it. And that's great, I think. (Who would be serious when they can be serial and se real?) But it's true: The more you wonder and study the less you prove. And what other place is there but? My last mailing did try to off hand bring together some of the strands of last week’s poetics discussions that I’d followed on this list: from armantrout to corn fields, red wheelbarrow to food guilt, finance and force, aggressive defences of the unaccountable ... Your Sapfic image sounds fine to me: hanging round in robe and slippers, steaming oolong tea and poppy seed too, maybe. Here the cherries are fat and it smells of meadowsweet and rainsteam. Some like the soft and comfy, some the sexed and sharp slipper, some to slip with sludge between the country toes as images. What interests, or even bothers me in these discussions, is the field of . Whether you hang around or work hard, earn your bread or have it handed to you on a plate, peasant or priestly, culturing or relazing: it’s always coming from somewhere else. No one can feel justified that they themselves, autopoietically as it were, have achieved anything. Talented, gifted, energetic or fortunate – none of this is in any other sense than (the radical) . That’s why I like pagan images and imaginary notions like the muses, or even blessing bodhisattvas if you like. I am not aware that anything can be said to exist. Ex! cept categorically, of course! The belated . We are all on charity, agape at the gods, say, non-plussed half of the time, even if we’re grateful. It would be nice if Lawrence Upton could provide this list with some examples of assertions, since it has been asserted that certain of them are not only unsubstantiated, but even indicative of undetermined personal perversions. (That’s what the phrase ad hominem stands for.) Substantiated proofs are mythical emanations if ever there was one. I dunno why one needs to be so coy about writing on Lissa Wolsak, for example. Why not say something off the cuff at least? (Attempted explanation – exploration, eruption? – is also an acceptable buzz.) What about also someone offering us a disquisition on the differential >orgasmic/ orgiastic< too: going fom the auto-erotic to the poetic, the to the , the privates to the public interfaces? It puzzles me that the concept of should be practically limited to the pejorative twist. Why should it be only and not open up? We are obviously talking here. Good. Culture is literally criticism. It is an open sore and a wound up scar. Stigma and cicatrice. Like the possible pun on , seedy salt in the cellar, voodoo in my basement, nightshade growth: it is the hidden being displayed, a cut wound covered up by writing. The legible is a line. (I went on all about such radical grafting and graft in my last mail...) There is a suggestion of a sort of sacred, holistic, unquestionable oneness in a piece of poetry,say. A work that works. A cybernetics of creativity where there is nothing you can say that doesn’t fit anyway comfortably within the . That is Chaos as oppressive language, order-nary business as usual. BUT. As soon as you act at all, it’s critical. There is no plain-stream, but banks, obstacles, flotsam. No flow without friction. That’s the point of our concept poetic. Listening not just hearing, , maybe, rather than chat. (I think that once you’ve written a poem, no innocent uninfected prose is ever possible again. Maybe poets could generally try the exercise of desperately not writing poetry, and see what comes out of their talk by accident. What offers itself as not .) A poem in its pathetic assertive insistence on individual autonomy from the rest of anyway noise. Love, Ruskin P.S. Maybe a minifesto clause diametrically opposed to one suggested last week (along the lines of: a good piece of writing is one that makes me write another one). What about: A good piece of writing is one that doesn't make me feel bad that I haven't written anything. i don't know if that's a serious proposition. What would be the ramifications? ______________________________________________________________________________ All inclusive! 100 MB Speicher, SMS 50% gunstiger, 32 MB Attachment-Gro?e, Preisvorteile und mehr unter http://club.web.de/?mc=021104 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:42:00 +0200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: ruskin watts Organization: http://freemail.web.de/ Subject: new poetic(s) periodical, DRONE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Here are some details of a new annual print magazine I edit. If you like the sound of it, drop me a line and I can send some excerpts. If you like them, tell me about it, ask for a copy in the flesh. If you don’t, tell me too. You can see the List of Contents below. The next issue, no. 2, is due at the end of 2002, as a yearbook of sorts, tentatively titled Maybe there’ll be a website by then. If you will have liked any of the stuff in issue one, feel free to contribute something. The tone and taste may change, the question‘ll still be something like Cheers, Ruskin DRONE FASCICLE / a new poetic / periodical. issue number one, 2001. ed. & de-signed by ruskin watts ISBN 0-9541407-0-2 paperback: 250 pages, price: 13 pounds published by drone codices, cheques etc payable to their curator, hedges, dartington, devon, TQ9 6HG email – ruskinwatts@ web.de This first issue includes material by Axel S. Parrot, Bysshe Berkeley and R.Eustace Dart, all discussing a sonnet and particular fragments by the German writing poet Theo Reiz de Man. The essays and emerging poems convoke and diverge on themes of love and consum-mating; of translation, rhetoric and metric; of poetry as everyday allegory, both theo-logical and trade-itional – both goods and page-white godd- as ‘sonnet sweet/ fettered‘ (Keats); of meaning in the mind or sense in astrognomic constellations – ‘starlight/ that speaks familiar language‘ (Baudelaire); of grammatical- & musicality; of violence and atonement, beauty, grace and grace. (an excerpt from I, OVERT URN) some further words,say. for a search engine: deconstruction, half-passionless, ink o(r)perated body, song bird goddess, post-civilized poetries LIST OF CONTENTS editor’s introduction 7 by Axel. S.Parrot ... love as far as it goes ... 17 (i. original, sire, stem ii. scion, the transfiguration iii. essay, do the figures dance apology) V lineae amoris 41 (I. tXt II. transmutation III. finish and mute notes) hope-falls 50 by Bysshe Berkeley consum-mated ... 53 i. (semen-neumes) ii. (a lateral transliteration) iii. (a filiation) i, overt urn 67 P.S. / epilogic 73 (Q question R reply T translation epilogic) by R. Eustace Dart theo’s palinode / ana-mallon 83 i. a second conning ii. superstitution iii. unscathing scythe (i. generality ii. particulars iii. generality again) LSN / know thyself 149 appendix / footnotes 171 (note on love’s notaries the other footnote final note) supplement 223 (suppli/m/ant) ________________________________________________________________ Keine verlorenen Lotto-Quittungen, keine vergessenen Gewinne mehr! Beim WEB.DE Lottoservice: http://tippen2.web.de/?x=13 ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:24:17 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i print there she print something i print nobody i print nothing i print breast i print resist she print things why print horrible i'm print together we'll print hungry the print kills passion print legs there print two she print lies i print me he print had i print us we print sorry she print dirty she print nothing i print him she print her she print floor she print me i print breast i'll print everything she print there i print there _ ========================================================================= Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:42:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Fw: NYTimes article on Adonis MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > An Arab Poet Who Dares to Differ > > July 13, 2002 > By ADAM SHATZ > > > > > > > BERLIN - "If I had to choose one word to describe myself, > it would be peasant," the poet known as Adonis said > recently in his cozy office at the Institute for Advanced > Studies here. > > It is an uncharacteristic note of humility, coming from a > man who renamed himself after the Greek fertility god and > who is widely considered the Arab world's greatest living > poet. Adonis (pronounced AH-doh-nees) was born Ali Ahmad > Said to farmers who raised him in a Syrian village without > electricity. But the only patch of land this urbane, > irreverent man has cultivated is the garden of language. > > Wearing a tweed jacket and a button-down blue shirt, > Adonis, 72, has a wild shock of hair, a grizzled face, > clever eyes that always seem to be reaching for their > target, and the light step of someone who has been on the > move for nearly a half century. Small and excitable, he can > shift in a moment from literary theory to literary gossip. > > Some Arab poets are more popular than Adonis - Mahmoud > Darwish, the Palestinian poet, for instance - but none are > more admired. A pioneer of the prose poem, he has played a > role in Arab modernism comparable to T. S. Eliot's in > English-language poetry. The literary and cultural critic > Edward Said calls him "today's most daring and provocative > Arab poet." The poet Samuel Hazo, who translated Adonis's > collection "The Pages of Day and Night," said, "There is > Arabic poetry before Adonis, and there is Arabic poetry > after Adonis." > > Experimental in style and prophetic in tone, Adonis's > poetry combines the formal innovations of modernism with > the mystical imagery of classical Arabic poetry. He has > evoked the anguish of exile, the spiritual desolation of > the Arab world, the intoxicating experiences of madness and > erotic bliss, the existential dance of self and the other. > But what defines his work, above all, is the force of > creative destruction, which burns through everything he > writes. "We will die if we do not create gods/We will die > if we do not kill them," he once wrote, echoing his > favorite poet, Nietzsche. > > Poetry, he said, is "a question that begets another > question" - a deeply subversive stance in a region in which > poets are often expected to take stands and provide > answers. Why is there so much didactic poetry in Arabic? > Speaking in French, Adonis gets straight to the point: > "It's a tradition, beginning with Islam, which introduced > the ideological use of poetry to the world long before > Communism. There's a line that runs from Islam to the > caliphs to the parties of right and left." Thanks to the > difficulty of his work, and his often vehement critiques of > Arab society, Adonis is more respected than loved by Arab > readers. > > Adonis, for his part, appears to relish his contrarian > reputation, sneering at "the public" as "an ideological > notion" and trying to please it "a sign of decadence for a > true work of art." Asked about the Egyptian novelist Naguib > Mahfouz, who is said to have been chosen over him for the > Nobel Prize in 1988, he said, "Mahfouz is more of a symbol > than a great writer." > > As for his rival Arab poets, they are "continuing the > tradition with a few variations, whereas I am the rupture > with the past, I am the one who is revolutionizing the > order of things, and that is ultimately what matters." > > Adonis, who lives in Paris, is spending the year in Berlin, > where he hopes to finish the fourth volume of "Al-Kitab" > ("The Book"), a Dantesque journey into what he calls "the > inferno of Arab history," beginning with the death of the > Prophet Muhammad and concluding with the fall of Baghdad to > the Mongols in 1258. As a member of the Alawites, a Shiite > minority in Syria, Adonis has always had an acute sense of > being an outsider, and "Al-Kitab" offers a radically > heretical view of Arab history, as seen by its many > dissidents. > > "I am among those who seek the ills of the Arabs in their > own history, not outside of it," he said. An outspoken > champion of secular democracy and a ferocious critic of > organized religion, Adonis has published many studies of > Arab culture and history, notably the book "The Changing > and the Fixed: A Study of Conformity and Originality in > Arab Culture." In that volume, banned in certain Arab > countries as heresy, Adonis accused Islam's clerics of > perpetuating what he calls past-ism - a stubborn tendency > to cling to what is known and to fear the new. According to > Adonis, even apparently secular forms of politics in the > Arab world, notably Arab nationalism and Marxism, are > religious in structure, presenting themselves as > revelations - absolute truths that confirm received wisdom > instead of fostering debate. > > "We live in a culture that doesn't leave a space for > questions," he said, puffing on a cigarillo. "It knows all > the answers in advance. Even God has nothing left to say!" > He let out a high-pitched giggle, as he often does after > saying something particularly ominous or apocalyptic. What > the Arab world needs, more than anything, he said, is a > "revolution of subjectivity" that would emancipate people > from tradition. Until this inner revolution occurs, he > warned, Arabs would know only a secondhand modernity, a > dangerous brew of hollow consumerism, rigged elections and > radical Islam. "There is no more culture in the Arab > world," he said. "It's finished. Culturally speaking, we > are a part of Western culture, but only as consumers, not > as creators." > > To American readers of Fouad Ajami and V. S. Naipaul, > Adonis's criticisms of Arab society may have a familiar > ring. But what sets him apart from these men is that he > writes in Arabic for an Arab audience, and that he is > equally critical of the West, particularly the United > States. "What strikes me about the States," he said, > widening his arms as if he were conducting the Berlin > Philharmonic, "is the richness of American society on the > one hand and, on the other" - he brought his hands together > as if he were measuring a grain of sand - "the smallness of > its foreign policy." > > Since Sept. 11, some readers have turned to Adonis's > chilling 1971 poem, "The Funeral of New York," a vision of > the city in flames that has a strong claim to being "The > Waste Land" of our time. In the poem, a nameless narrator > wanders through the Financial District and Harlem, looking > in vain for Walt Whitman's ghost and angrily imagining "an > eastern wind" uprooting skyscrapers, "a cloud necklaced > with fire" and "people melting like tears." > > "New York, to me, is both heaven and hell," he explained, > adding, "When I read this poem today, it frightens me." > > The eldest of six children, Adonis was born in 1930 in > Qassabin, on the coast near Latakia. Although his father > could not afford to send him to school, he taught his son > to read poetry and the Koran. According to a well-known > story, when Shukri al-Kuwatli, the first president of the > newly independent republic, visited nearby Jableh, the > 14-year-old Adonis insisted on reading a poem he had > written for the occasion. The president was dazzled by the > boy's gifts. "Tell me, what do you want?" he asked him. "I > want to go to school," Adonis replied. > > Within a week, the president had arranged for Adonis to > attend a French-run high school. From there he went on to > the University of Damascus, where he studied German > philosophy and discovered Rimbaud and Baudelaire. At 19 he > changed his name to Adonis because he couldn't get poems > published under his own name. "I am a pagan prophet," he > often says, a self-description that, like his name, is the > subject of many jokes among his Arab peers. > > In 1956, after spending a year in prison for antigovernment > activities, Adonis fled to Beirut, then a vibrant, > cosmopolitan haven for Arab poets, exiles and rebels. With > his friend Yusuf al-Khal, a Lebanese poet, he edited the > seminal journal Shir (Poetry), a forum for experimental > Arabic poetry as well as European verse in translation. > > "All the poetry in the Arab world in this period was either > traditionalist or nationalist," Adonis recalled. "What we > were trying to achieve was a rediscovery of the self, > against the tribe, against the umma, against all these > ideological forms of culture. And though we were often > boycotted and accused of Americanism and other sins, > everyone acknowledges today that all that is true and real > in Arab poetry comes from Shir." > > In 1968, Adonis created another influential journal, > Mawaqif (Positions), which enlarged the focus of Shir by > addressing the politics - and the illusions - of Arab > nations after their defeat by Israel in 1967. When the > Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt was at his > apogee, Mawaqif devoted a special issue to skewering the > ideology of pan-Arabism. The next issue took on an even > more sacred cow, the Palestinian movement. "Our project was > to put into question an entire culture and history, not > just poetry," he said, "in order to renew Arab thought." > > Adonis said he would have been happy to stay in Beirut, but > the civil war there made that impossible. During the 1982 > Israeli invasion of Lebanon, his bedroom was bombed while > he sat with his wife, Khalida, in the living room. A year > later he settled in Paris, choosing, as he puts it, the > "hell of exile" over "the hell of daily life" in the Arab > countries. Hell may seem a strong word to describe the life > of a middle-class literature professor at the Collège de > France, but the earthly comforts of life in exile, he said, > come with a painful sense of solitude, as well as the > ever-present menace of the fatwas issued against him. > > "We are all seen as renegades and anti-Muslims, and we're > all on hit lists," he said, referring to secular Arab > intellectuals. Meanwhile, he said, fundamentalism is > nourished by the Israeli military campaign in the West > Bank. "We are caught," he said, "between fundamentalism and > the silence of our Jewish intellectual friends." > > "The Palestinian problem," he continued, lowering his voice > for emphasis, "goes beyond politics. It is an ethical > problem, and ethics is never on the side of power. Jews and > Palestinians must live together, whether it's in two states > or in a federation." He paused, sipping from a glass of red > wine. "Religion has ceased to be a culture and become a > mythology, for Islam as well as Judaism. These are people > who do not recognize, or reflect the other, in their > language, people completely closed in on themselves. > Everyone pretends that God told them his last words." He > laughed heartily, but he did not look happy. > > http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/13/arts/12ADON.html?ex=1027596283&ei=1&en=506 7f7765577f4a7 > > > > HOW TO ADVERTISE > --------------------------------- > For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters > or other creative advertising opportunities with The > New York Times on the Web, please contact > onlinesales@nytimes.com or visit our online media > kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo > > For general information about NYTimes.com, write to > help@nytimes.com. > > Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 02:33:02 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Filing Names MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Filing Names Net1 Net2 Net3 Net4 Net5 Net6 Net7 Net8 Net9 Net10 Net11 Net12 Net13 Net14 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u Uncanny Fantasm Blood Past Weather ah am an ap ba bb cc dd ee ff gg hh ii jj jk jl jm jn jo jp jq jr js jt ju jv jw jx jy ka kb kc kd ke kf kg kh ki kj kk kl km kn ko kp kq kr ks kt ku kv kw kx ky kz la lb lc ld le lf lg lh li lj lk ll lm ln lo lp lq lr ls lt lu lv lw lx ly lz ma mb mc md me mf mg mh mi mj mk ml mm Linguistic annotations to Internet Text file names: 1. Why the sudden change after Net14 ? 2. The alphabet series ends at u . 3. Only five named files: I realized these were already breaking with some sort of order - I had to return to a more coherent system. 4. With the dyadic formations, things become confused: a. Why start with ah, am, an? Where is ai, aj? b. With the doubles, where is aa? Why does this suddenly break off at jj - only to start with another series, that of k, after jy? c. Why does k complete the dyadic series k*, and l complete l*? d. Where is m* headed? e. Do kk, ll, and mm replace earlier files related to the doubles series? Have texts inadvertently been lost? I am currently revising my home-page, emphasizing newer work and this series - I have no answer whatsoever. My texts tend towards their own vagaries and wayward classifications - often beginning as if the whole world is ordered, ending, as if everything is in dissolution. In a state of depression, both ends transform into substance, through which may be read a certain decathected truth; often, however, I write in a state of exhilaration... _ ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 10:52:40 -0400 Reply-To: derek@derekrogerson.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Derek R Organization: DerekRogerson.com Subject: New brand of scapegoating? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Moral Relativity Is a Hot Topic? True. Absolutely.--> http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/13/arts/13CONN.html The Sept. 11 attacks have led to criticism of postmodernists, now defending their views. Postmodernism challenges the notion of objective truth and rejects the possibility of a transcendent ethical perspective. Surely [Sept. 11] cries out for some different understanding? and from The Responsive Community (www.gwu.edu/~ccps), a quarterly political journal edited by Amitai Etzioni | | v Don't Blame Relativism - Stanley Fish --> http://www.gwu.edu/~ccps/rcq/Fish.pdf CAN POSTMODERNISTS CONDEMN TERRORISM? We can invoke universals all we want, but in the end we're fighting for our moral judgments... Are you now or have you ever been a postmodernist? This new version of "America, love it or leave it!" is directed at a few professors of literature, history, and sociology who are being told that they are directly responsible for the weakening of the nation's moral fiber and indirectly responsible for the attack a weakened nation has suffered. ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:16:48 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Other people have mentioned it, but it bears repeating: Tom Orange's Clark Coolidge site at EPC (http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/coolidge/) is a phenomenal labor of love. Don't miss the early poems. Bravo, Tom! And C.C. too, of course. Kasey •• k. silem mohammad visiting asst prof of british & anglophone lit university of california santa cruz _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:09:20 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Daniel Kane Subject: WriteNet Contacts page Comments: To: writenet@twc.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The WriteNet contacts page has been updated. The page is useful for those of you looking for imaginative writing work in a school or other institution, for school administrators or teachers who want to know more about writers-in-the-schools programs, for those of you looking for writers to teach in your school or community center, etc. Basically, the contacts page is composed of a list of people and organizations that can provide you with information about writers-in-the-schools programs in your state and resources for teaching creative writing. The page is at http://www.writenet.org/contacts.html ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:18:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: RaeA100900@AOL.COM Subject: Re: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Since he didn't mention it himself, I thought I'd say that Patrick Durgin has done a very nice job of updating my EPC author page. He's added new poems and links, including the much discussed Boston Review piece. Thank you, Patrick. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 15:08:03 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site In-Reply-To: <8f.1ee5cff8.2a630c5f@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cheers to all involved in the EPC And mentioning Patrick Durgin's doing grand jobs check out _Kenning 12_ the audio edition. Its one of my favorite CD's. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of RaeA100900@AOL.COM Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 1:18 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site Since he didn't mention it himself, I thought I'd say that Patrick Durgin has done a very nice job of updating my EPC author page. He's added new poems and links, including the much discussed Boston Review piece. Thank you, Patrick. Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:43:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Paul Stephens Subject: Re: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Gatza" To: Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 3:08 PM Subject: Re: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site > Cheers to all involved in the EPC > > And mentioning Patrick Durgin's doing grand jobs check out _Kenning 12_ > the audio edition. Its one of my favorite CD's. > > > > > > Best, Geoffrey > > > > > > Geoffrey Gatza > editor BlazeVOX2k1 > http://vorplesword.com/ > __o > _`\<,_ > (*)/ (*) > > Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp > http://gatza.da.ru > > > -----Original Message----- > From: UB Poetics discussion group > [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of > RaeA100900@AOL.COM > Sent: Sunday, July 14, 2002 1:18 PM > To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU > Subject: Re: Tom Orange's Coolidge EPC site > > Since he didn't mention it himself, I thought I'd say that Patrick > Durgin has > done a very nice job of updating my EPC author page. He's added new > poems and > links, including the much discussed Boston Review piece. Thank you, > Patrick. > > Rae Armantrout ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:01:29 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: An interview with Stephen Ellis In-Reply-To: <000801c22b98$a91145a0$6c2a3b80@oemcomputer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From the desk of Kent Johnson An interview with Stephen Ellis, "JFK's Head Blown Out from a Cosmic Inflationary Spiral: Stephen Ellis on Poetry, Jack Clarke, Palestine, Position-Taking, the End of the World, and Cyberpoetry," is available at the new issue of Jack Magazine http://www.jackmagazine.com Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru ========================================================================= Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:24:57 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: starust MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII starust alan sondheim>> hello good lookin alan sondheim>> hows about cookin alan sondheim>> hows about cookin something up for me alan sondheim>> put another nickel in alan sondheim>> stardust alan sondheim>> memories are made of this alan sondheim>> hello good lookin alan sondheim>> smoke gets in your eyes alan sondheim>> put another nickel in alan sondheim>> stardust alan sondheim>> stardust alan sondheim>> are you there? alan sondheim>> do you know what you done to me? alan sondheim>> do you know what you mean to me? alan sondheim>> you've won me and held me! alan sondheim>> stardust alan sondheim>> stardust alan sondheim>> stardust alan sondheim>> s sih, it's this way alan sondheim>> an u can find your way alan sondheim>> asyou hat the way is there alan sondheim>> t ere is a way alan sondheim>> th is pesn alan sondheim>> that athat there is the way alan sondheim>> wheyothattayrethe way is process alan sondheim>> tha wat tprocess is way alan sondheim>> thatere is something else, i don't know alan sondheim>> h t ths it is alan sondheim>> perocessk perhaps alan sondheim>> thahaheing of ethical alan sondheim>> tp prspometmight be another way alan sondheim>> that 's always a way alan sondheim>> st alan sondheim>> starust alan sondheim>> thereutdust alan sondheim>> staardust alan sondheim>> thdtdust alan sondheim>> rust alan sondheim>> starddust alan sondheim>> drstarrdust..... _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 00:51:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group Comments: RFC822 error: Incorrect or incomplete address field found and ignored. From: Spiral Bridge Subject: The 1 year Anniversary Celebration Begins Toninght! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Celebrate the 1 year Anniversary of the Spiral Bridge Writers Guild = Beginning Tonight @ 1 Phunky Burrito Joint Monday, July 15, 2002, 7 - 11 pm. FREE We've connected with the Phunk so come on down to the upper side of town = for an intimate reading @ 1 Phunky Burrito Joint. Please Join us for = an evening of OPEN MIC POETRY, Inexpensive Phenomenal food, and the = beautiful music of Lynn Rosenthal For more information or great take out contact Rocco @ 973-744-1200 or SpiralBridge@SpiralBridge.org =20 1 Phunky Burrito Joint 556 Bloomfield Ave Upper Montclair, NJ =20 ~~~~~&~~~~~ Spiral Bridge On The Hub Wednesday, July 17, 2002, 7 pm. FREE, as usual. Please join us at this inspiring event celebrating the words and worlds = of poets from all over New Jersey. As always, and thanks to the = generosity of the folks at The Hamilton Street Cafe and Stage, this will = be a FREE, OPEN MIC POETRY EVENT, with live music and the diverse = stylings of almost-famous local poets.=20 "Free Your Mind and your ass will follow!" -G. Clinton The Hamilton Street Cafe and Stage 22 Hamilton Street Bound Brook, NJ Directions ~> http://www.hamiltonst.com/directions.html = ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Spiral Bridge Writers Guild is an independent non-profit poetry = organization founded by a group of young and enthusiastic poets from New = Jersey who have united their words and their spirits in a venture that = involves collective poetic innovation and reflection, as well as a = strong commitment to the promotion of understanding and expression = through the arts. We are always open to new and emerging writers, please = feel free to contact us for more information @ either = SpiralBridge@SpiralBridge.org Or Spiral Bridge P.O. Box 668 Montclair, NJ 07042 =20 Spiral Bridge, where I end and We begin... =20 -Ana =20 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 06:58:02 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Wild Honey Press Subject: Untitled III MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies if you get this more than once. A sizeable selection from Untitled III by Geoffrey Squires, which he read at the recent Cork festival is online at www.wildhoneypress.com Pull down the menu for Online Texts and Audio and click on Texts. Or, click on New. best Randolph ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 02:20:00 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: i am so sorry i MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII i am so sorry i PRIVATE MSG: i couldn't believe what happened t orrbeicnue wi onti ern't blo do anything i ashl tdit out something frightened us out ab ash PRIVATE MSG: weweae t ourt didn't make sense fn't sure but the window shuddered PRIVATE MSG: i wadn't understand how it ooulay i didn't do it PRIVATE MSG: was thi'nt do it iscwdn anything i would do PRIVATE MSG: it wcould tell you i just you s din'te she was on PRIVATE MSG: lay he was hard on me m't move there was PRIVATE MSG: i e ias her suldnkninfething of that order iteco omdn't tell you asa private message PRIVATE MSG: or coul was e it was something to d have understood itdidn't understand imouu she lived ma she didn't i found mcock in my i ybeayby th it was hard there mouon me she PRIVATE MSG: i shemuporn in two was annihilate it was like that t wasit was dhing like that an t somedhatwasyears somewhat PRIVATE MSG: sheta long time ago _ ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 02:59:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: announcement for anthology of art # 19 (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 08:49:30 +0200 From: Heike Wetzig To: bbelay@noos.fr, urmama@codedpixels.org, papipaga@internet.com.mx, kurtz@andrew.cmu.edu, steve.dietz@walkerart.org, michelleforsyth@yahoo= =2Ecom, HanneLoreck@web.de, jenafur28@aol.com, noh@umbc.edu, sondheim@panix.co= m, vaguedisquiet@yahoo.com, annuvertanen@surfeu.fi Subject: announcement for anthology of art # 19 Dear Anthology participants, we would like to thank you once again for your participation in the ANTHOLOGY OF ART. From JULY 15 - 31, 2002 the following contributors are published on our site http://www.anthology-of-art.net Peggy Ahwesh Eric del Castillo Bandala Janice Cheddie Ng Teck Yong Francis Daniel Kurjakovic Margot Lovejoy Brian Leigh Molyneaux Gunalan Nadarajan Wim Salki Anne-Marie Schleiner Karina Skvirsky McKenzie Wark If you have any feedback about the outcome or any other comment related to the topics of the anthology, please contact us at mail@anthology-of-art.net, by email to the sender, or send a fax to +49 (0) 531.391.9147. With best regards, the project team Participants up to now: =2E............................................... Sonja Abadzieva (Skopje/ *Bulgaria), Eduardo Abaroa (Mexico City & Los Angeles/ *Mexico), Tom Ackers (London/ *Hong Kong), Nancy Adajania (Bombay), Peggy Ahwesh (New York), Kathleen Anderson (Phillipsport - USA), Dekan Andjelkovic (Belgrade/ *Serbia), with Jelica Radovanovic, Soren Andreasen (Copenhagen), Marie-Luise Angerer (Cologne/ *Austria), Igor Antic (Paris/ *Yugoslavia), Clover Archer (New York), Inke Arns (Berlin), Sara Arrhenius (Stockholm), Robert Atkins (New York), Zeigam Azizov (London/ *Azerbajgan), George Baker (New York), Rina Banerjee, Perry Bard (New York), Ricardo Basbaum (Rio de Janeiro), Geoffrey Batchen (Albuquerque/ *Australia), Boris Belay (Paris), Ramon Tio Bellido (Paris), Zoe Beloff (New York/ *UK), Alain Benoit (Montreal), Kenny Berger (Los Angeles), Ulrike Bergermann (Paderborn & Hamburg), Anita di Bianco (Rotterdam/ *USA), BillyBoy* (Switzerland), Richard Birkett (London), Josh Blackwell (Los Angeles), Julie Blankenship (San Francisco), Jill Bliss (San Francisco), Hannes B=F6hringer (Berlin), Mikkel Bolt (Aarhus), Eleanor Bond (Winnipeg), Pauline von Bonsdorff (Helsinki), G=E1bor Bora (Stockholm/ *Hungary), Francois Bou=E9 (New York/ *Germany), Nancy Bowen (New York), Robert Boyd (New York), Will Bradley (Glasgow), Deborah Bright (Boston), Suzanne Broughel (New York), Neal Brown (London), Daniel Buren (Paris), Miguel Calder=F3n (Mexico City), Alicia Candiani (Buenos Aires), Eric del Castillo Bandala (Mexico City), Jackie Chang (New York/ *Taiwan), Yungshu Chao (New York/ *Taiwan), Chris Chapman (Sydney), Janice Cheddie (London/ *St. Lucia), Jodi Chime (Singapore), Lawrence Chin (Singapore), Yau Ching (Hong Kong), Sara Ching-Yu Sun (New York/ *Taiwan), John Clark (Sydney/ *Australia & UK), Elizabeth Cohen (New York), Jordan Crandall (London/ *USA), Critical Art Ensemble (USA), Tobey Crockett (La Crescenta - USA), Susan Crowe (New York), Joselina Cruz (Manila), Ann Burke Daly (New York), Sharon Daniel (Santa Cruz/ *USA), Joshua Decter (New York), Katy Deepwell (London), Florine Demosthene (New York/ *Haiti), Shawna Dempsey (Winnipeg), with Lorri Millan, Liz Deschenes, Sam W. Dickerson (New York), Steve Dietz (Minneapolis), Redas Dirzys (Alytus - Lithuania), Jean Dubois (Montreal), Alan Dunn (London), Leif Elggren (Stockholm), David Elliott (Montreal), Geraldine Erman (New York), Charles Esche (Copenhagen/ *UK), Barbara Ess (New York), Tracy Ann Essoglou (New York), Marcelo Exp=F3sito (Barcelona), Susanne von Falkenhausen (Berlin), Filipa Farraia (New York), Maria Fernandez (Irvine/ *Nicaragua), Duggie Fields (London), Amy Finkbeiner (New York), Daniel Firman (St. Priest - France), Joan Fitzsimmons (Shelton - USA), Patrick Flores (Manila), Michelle Forsyth (Canada), Ng Teck Yong Francis (Singapore), Rochelle Fry (London), Brian Frye (New York), Matthew Fuller (London), Alex Galloway (New York), Rainer Ganahl (New York/ *Austria), Adam Geczy (Sydney), Ross Gibson (Sydney/ *UK), Jeremy Gilbert-Rolfe (Los Angeles/ *UK), Ana & Sonia Gil-Costa (New York), Vera Gliem (Cologne), Ilian Gonzalez (Mexico City/ *Veracruz), Thyrza Nichols Goodeve (New York), Saraswati Gramich (Reims - France), Jeff Grant (New York), Charles Green (Melbourne), M. A. Greenstein (Los Angeles), Catherine Grout (Paris), David Grubbs (New York), Silvia Gruner (Mexico City), Marina Grzinic (Ljubljana/ *Yugoslavia), Charles Gute (New York & Milan/ *USA), Jeronimo Hagerman (Mexico City), Sunju Han (South Korea), Elina Hartzell (Belfast/ *Finland), Liselot van der Heijden (New York/ *Netherlands), Eric Heist (New York), Betti-Sue Hertz (San Diego), Jens Hoffmann (Berlin/ *Mexico), Stewart Home (London), Homeless Projects (London), Young-In Hong (Seoul), Stephen Horne (Lignieres-Orgeres - France/ *Kenya), Teri Hoskin (Adelaide), Ranjit Hoskote (Bombay), Hanru Hou (Paris/ *China), Kent Howie (San Francisco), Lynn Hughes (Montreal), Christina Hung / subRosa (USA), Jessica Hutchins (Los Angeles/ *USA), Sawn Hwang (Heidelberg - Germany/ *Singapore), Akiko Ichikawa (New York/ *Japan), Shirley Irons (New York/ *USA), ium (Seoul), Magdalena Jetelov=E1 (Cologne/ *Czechoslovakia), Claudia Jolles (Zurich/ *Austria), Amelia Jones (Los Angeles), Jennie C. Jones (New York), David Joselit (Williamstown & Los Angeles), Branden W. Joseph (New York), Claudia Joskowicz (New York/ *Bolivia), Minna Kantonen (London/ *Finland), Suhasini Kejriwal (Calcutta), Bom-jun Kim (Seoul), Mi-kyung Kim (Seoul), Sunjung Kim (Seoul), KIT, Susanne Kittlinger (London/ *Germany), Astrid Klein (Cologne), Yutaka Kobayashi (Berkeley & Okinawa/ *Japan), Vasif Kortun (Istanbul), Janet Kraynak (New York), Miodrag Krkobabic (Belgrade), Verena Kuni (Frankfurt a. M.), Daniel Kurjakovic (Zurich/ *Bosnia), Marta Kuzma (London), Antoinette LaFarge (Irvine), Jun T. Lai (Taipei), Eve Andr=E9e Laram=E9e (New York), Lars Bang Larsen (Copenhagen), Torsten Lauschmann (Glasgow/ *Germany), Miguel Leal (Porto), Pamela M. Lee (Stanford), Ellen K. Levy (New York), Pi Li (Beijing), Emma Lilly (London), Paul Lincoln (Singapore), Detlef B. Linke (Bonn), Catherine Lord (Irvine/ *Dominica), Hanne Loreck (Berlin), Margot Lovejoy (New York/ *Canada), Ann Lovett (New York), Geert Lovink (Sydney), John Low (Singapore), Michael L=FCthy (Berlin/ *Switzerland), Pablo Vargas Lugo (Mexico City), Jan-Erik Lundstr=F6m (Ume=E5 - Sweden), Harm Lux (Zurich/ *Netherlands), Landon MacKenzie (Vancouver), Medrie MacPhee (New York), Goshka Macuga (London/ *Poland), Lenore Malen (New York), Jacek Malinowski (Warsaw), Gianfranco Maraniello (Milan), Anthony Martin (New York), Viktor Mazin (St. Petersburg), with Olesya Turkina, Howard McCalebb (New York), Paul McDevitt (London), Scott McQuire (Melbourne), Mathieu Mercier (Paris), Valerie Merians (Hoboken - USA), Suzana Milevska (Skopje), Lorri Millan (Winnipeg), with Shawna Dempsey, James Mills (Philadelphia), Susette Min (Los Angeles), Jamie Mirabella (New York), Brian Leigh Molyneaux (Vermillion - USA), Gen Ken Montgomery (New York), Lisa Moren (New York), Juan Luis Moraza (Madrid), Joanne Morra (London/ *Canada), Gerben Mulder (New York/ *Netherlands), Gunalan Nadarajan (Singapore), Peter Nagy (New Delhi & New York), Sina Najafi (New York/ *Iran), Fumio Nanjo (Tokyo), Joseph Nechvatal, Jen Nelson (New York), Michael Newall (St. Peters - Australia), Matthew Ngui (Singapore & Perth), Anne Ninivin (London/ *France), Timothy Nohe (Baltimore), Yonca Norgaz (London/ *Germany), Odili Donald Odita (Tallahassee/ *Nigeria), Lorraine O'Grady (New York & Irvine), Olu Oguibe (New York/ *Nigeria), Masashi Ogura (Tokyo), Luis Felipe Ortega (Mexico City), James Otis (Littleton - USA), Melentie Pandilovski (Skopje), Nikos Papastergiadis (Melbourne), Stefan Parisi (New York), Laura Parnes (New York), Lise Patt (Los Angeles), Boudewijn Payens (Amsterdam), Eng Sock Peai (Singapore), John Pearson, Marsha Pels (New York), Fernando Jos=E9 Pereira (Porto), Sharmini Pereira (London), Boris Petkovski (Skopje/ *Yugoslavia), Zoran Petrovski (Skopje), Terri Phillips (Los Angeles), Johan Pijnappel (India/ *Netherlands), Liss Platt (New York), Eddi Prabandono (Okinawa/ *Indonesia), Elizabeth Presa (Hampton - Australia), Jiri Prihoda (Prague), Constantinos V. Proimos, Milenko Prvacki (Singapore/ *Yugoslavia), Stuart Purdy (Glasgow/ *Ireland), Cay Sophie Rabinowitz (New York), Stephanie Radok (Erindale - Australia), Jelica Radovanovic (Belgrade/ *Croatia), with Dekan Andjelkovic, Ravi Rajakumar (New York/ *Canada), Andrea Ray (New York), Claudia Reiche (Hamburg), Chris Reid (Adelaide), Ros=E2ngela Renn=F3 (Rio d= e Janeiro), L=E1szl=F3 L. R=E9v=E9sz (Budapest), B=E9r=E9nice Reynaud (Los An= geles/ *France), Clark Richert (Denver), Judith Rodenbeck (New York), Irit Rogoff (London/ *Israel), Robbie Rowlands (Northcote - Australia), Beatrix Ruf (Zurich/ *Germany), Neli Ruzic (Mexico City/ *Croatia), Bojan Sarcevic, Selina Sharon Rutovitz (New York/ *UK), Wim Salki (Ijsseldijk - Netherlands), Jayce Salloum (Vancouver), Keith Sanborn (New York), Craig Saper (Bala Cynwyd - USA), Amelia Mira Saul (New York), Sinisa Savic (London/ *Yugoslavia), Heidi Schlatter (New York), Anne-Marie Schleiner (San Jose - USA), Jeffrey Schulz (New York), Avraham Schweiger (Tel Aviv & New York/ *Netherlands), Aaron Scott (New York/ *USA), Lizzie Scott (Los Angeles), Peter Scott (New York), Kerim Seiler (Zurich & Hamburg/ *Switzerland), Shuddhabrata Sengupta (New Delhi), Becky Shaw (London), Jamy Sheridan (Baltimore), Tom Sherman (Toronto/ *USA), Juin Shieh (Hsin-Chu City - Taiwan), Suzan Shutan (East Haven - USA & Porto - Portugal/ *USA), Andrea Sick (Bremen - Germany), 6 (Singapore), Karina Skvirsky (New York), Marquard Smith (London), Spencer Snygg (Allentown - USA), Valeska Soares (Rio de Janeiro), Chris Sollars (San Francisco), Alan Sondheim (New York), Monika Sosnowska (Warsaw), Allan de Souza (Los Angeles/ *Kenya), Catherine Speck (Adelaide), John Spiteri (London/ *Australia), Titus Spree (Okinawa/ *Germany), Rachel Stevens (New York), Dorothea Strauss (Freiburg), Janos Sugar (Budapest), Betty Susiarjo (Singapore/ *Indonesia), Jennifer Suwak (Pocono Mts. - USA), Michael Talley (New York), Jo-ey Tang (Oakland - USA/ *Hong Kong), Eugene Thacker (Atlanta), J=F3zsef A. Tillmann (Budapest), Zoran Todorovic (Belgrade), Laureana Toledo (Mexico City), Momoyo Torimitsu (New York/ *Japan), Rosemarie Trockel (Cologne), Olesya Turkina (St. Petersburg), with Viktor Mazin, Simon Tyszko (London), Ik=E9 Ud=E9 (New York/ *Nigeria), Nick Ullo (New York), Gregory L. Ulmer (Gainesville - USA), Juana Valdes (New York/ *Cuba), Adriana Varej=E3o (Rio de Janeiro), Miguel Ventura (Mexico City/ *USA), Annu Vertanen (Imatra - Finland), Suzann Victor (Singapore), Nebojsa Vilic (Skopje), Yvonne Volkart (Zurich), Ute Vorkoeper (Hamburg), Stevan Vukovic (Belgrade), Yanik Wagner (New York), Linda Marie Walker (Sydney), Wendy Walker (Adelaide), Frazer Ward (Baltimore/ *UK), McKenzie Wark (New York & Sydney/ *Australia), James R. Watson (New Orleans), Michael Waugh (New York), Barbara Weissberger (Hoboken - USA), Susan Wilmarth-Rabineau (New York), Insa Winkler (Hamburg), Ian Woo (Singapore), Florian W=FCst (Rotterdam/ *Germany), Chua Sze Ying (Singapore), So-yoon Yoon (Paris/ *Korea R.O.K.), Dragana Zarevac (Belgrade) =2E.................................. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 10:14:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Fargas Laura Subject: going nomail MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" .... could someone please backchannel and tell me how to set no-mail for vacation? thanks. Laura ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:01:06 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Landers, Susan" Subject: POM2 Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" POM2 is accepting submissions for Issue 3 through August 15, 2002. See guidelines below or at www.pompompress.com. POM2 publishes work that directly engages and responds to poems previously published in Pom2. We encourage submissions from those who are willing to have their work altered, lifted, plagiarized or transformed in later issues. Contributors may respond to one poem, or several, from any issue. (Issue #1 is available online, Issue #2 can be ordered.) No previously published work will be considered. Include with your submission: (1) title of "source" poem(s), (2) full contact information: phone, address, fax and e-mail, (3) optional: a photograph of yourself. Submit no more than 5 poems. Electronically to: pompompress@yahoo.com Subject line: toast PC or Mac attachments welcome Or mail to: Susan Landers, Pom2, 227 Prospect Ave. #2, Brooklyn, NY 11215 SASE required Deadline for Issue 3: August 15, 2002 ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 14:38:36 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Charles Bernstein Subject: going nomail Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed >.... could someone please backchannel and tell me how to set no-mail for >vacation? thanks. Actually good reminder for all this time of year: So, let me jump in and save Christopher Alexander the trouble: send email to listserv@listserv.buffalo.edu message should simply be set poetics nomail ** then later: set poetics mail note you can always read the list on the archive at http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/archives/poetics.html some messages read better in "proportional space" (typically needed if the prose line doesn't break at the right end of the screen but strands out horizontally till the end of the paragraph), others read better in "nonproportional space" (typically linebreaks for poems are run-in, as are line ends for cited passages from previous emails). you can toggle proportional/nonproportional at the top of the archive screen. Charles Bernstein ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:33:58 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit http://www.citizencorps.gov/ From the Sydney Morning Herald Web site 15 July 2002 http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies By Ritt Goldstein July 15 2002 The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups. The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity". Civil liberties groups have already warned that, with the passage earlier this year of the Patriot Act, there is potential for abusive, large-scale investigations of US citizens. As with the Patriot Act, TIPS is being pursued as part of the so-called war against terrorism. It is a Department of Justice project. Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits. A pilot program, described on the government Web site www.citizencorps.gov, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants participating in the first stage. Assuming the program is initiated in the 10 largest US cities, that will be 1 million informants for a total population of almost 24 million, or one in 24 people. [...] ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 22:11:03 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Crag Hill Subject: SCORE 17 Now AVAILABLE MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit SCORE 17 is now available. Visual/verbal and other poetic pyrotechnics. Contributors include Reed Altemus, Doug Bolling, Nancy Brush-Burr, David Colon, K. S. Ernst, Jack Foss, T. Gaze, John Grey, Igor Kalashnikov ("trans." by Robert Crombie), William Keckler, Pete Lee, Bryant Mason, McMurtagh, Robert Mittenthal, Sheila Murphy, Keiichi Nakamura, Nakamura & Julien Blaine, Nakamura & Pete Spence, Jono Schneider, Matt Stolte, Andrew Topel, Craig Van Riper, D. E. C. Robbins, Nico Vassilakis, John Vieira, William Woodruff, and David A. Colón. For Poetics List subscribers we will include a copy of Daniel Davidson's Weather or Aldon Nielsen's Evacuation Routes. Available for $12.00 post-paid from Crag Hill, 1111 E. Fifth St., Moscow, ID 83843 We also invite submissions for SCORE 18. ========================================================================= Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:13:57 -1000 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Fw: Hybolics presents... POETRY TO DA MAX (fwd) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm forwarding this message about an event that includes Steve Carll, whose new Hamburger is available from Tinfish Press (see http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish for details on this and other titles). Susan > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:25:41 -1000 > From: Lee Tonouchi > To: Recipient List Suppressed: ; > Subject: Hybolics presents... POETRY TO DA MAX > > POETRY TO DA MAX > > We did da auditions. Now Hybolics presents dis historical event--Poetry to > da Max--featuring some of da bes performance poets dat Hawai'i get for > offer. > > Dis ain't yo' mama's poetry reading. Going get one eclectic intermingling > of various skools of Hawai'i poetry-- Performance Pidgin (old skool and new > skool represent), Hawaiian Chant, Def Hawai'i Rap, and even da jus plain > mento. > > > Da line-up: > Steve Kealoha Wong > Steve Carll > Joe Hadley a.k.a. bradajo > Katana a.k.a. Ronda Mapuana Hayashi > Kimo Armitage (w/ Keoni Kuoha and Chris Pasquil) > > Special opening performance by: > "Da Pidgin Guerrilla" Lee A. Tonouchi > > Da low-down: > Center for Hawaiian Studies > (2645 Dole Street) > Saturday, August 3, 2002 > 7:30 pm > Free > > > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 02:36:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: revised homepage MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The homepage (first URL below) is revised, cleaned up. There are two videos, highly compressed, which require Wmplayer for .wmv; there are several new images as well and cleaned-up text. The page opens as well on Mac IE with video/text for mumm.wmv. All of the files are there; the most recent is mm. Alan - Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 00:08:25 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jeffrey Jullich Subject: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii "Keep a low profile and avoid loud conversations or arguments." I think this is marvelous news! People don't pay enough attention to each other, in general, but with all that spying going on, well, that's a fine remedy to self-centeredness! I predict that avant-garde poets will be put to special use in ~encryption.~ Imagine all the secret spy messages that can be transmitted under the guise of "experimental" poetry. And who better to crack codes than we who've been finding meaning in gobbledygook for years. As far as "reporting suspicious activity," my favorite was when that call was put out this past October 31st, for Halloween. "Hello? Is this the police station? I just wanted to report: some very small people wearing masks with pimply hag noses are going round the neighborhood being given suspicious wrapped candy bar-sized packages, which they carry off in bags." List members should be especially comfortable in such an environment, having had all our postings pre-screened by a moderator for so long. . . . Think of it as a kind of ~fame,~ being spied upon. After all, isn't that what celebrity is all about: people photographing you, Boswells recording your every movement . . . ------------------------------------------------------- from "The Citizens' Preparedness Guidebook" (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ojpcorp/cpg.pdf) : "When traveling, dress conservatively. ... If a medication is unusual or contains narcotics, carry a letter from your doctor attesting to your need to take the drug. ... Keep a low profile and avoid loud conversations or arguments. ... Try to seem purposeful when you move about, even if you are lost." __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Autos - Get free new car price quotes http://autos.yahoo.com ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:12:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gary Sullivan Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed >I predict that avant-garde poets will be put to special use in >~encryption.~ Imagine all the secret spy messages that can be >transmitted under the guise of "experimental" poetry. Actually, there's an Eliot Weinberger essay more or less about this. Maybe in Works on Paper or Outside Stories? Remember, Whittaker Chambers, who fingered Alger Hiss as a communist, had been a poet included in at least one objectivist-related anthology. When he was 18 or so, Whittaker Chambers translatated Bambi from Felix Salten's original German. For a long time it was *the* translation of Bambi -- at leat, it was the one I kept running across. I'm pretty sure it's the one Disney used ... Years ago, reading Alger Hiss' Recollections of a Life, I got the idea to do a super-paranoid experimental poet-version of Hiss' life, including an equally super-paranoid, Mac Lowian write-through of Chambers' translation of Bambi. Earl Sighs (an anagram of Hiss) was the name I gave the author; it was called Das Bambi's and opened with an epigraph from a late friend of mine, Daniel Davidson: "You have no idea the level of paranoia that exists in this community." Maybe it's time to drag that project out of the file cabinet & dust it off ... _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:22:57 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: Kiosk: A Journal of Poetry, Poetics, and Experimental Prose MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 Kiosk: A Journal of Poetry, Poetics, and Experimental Prose -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ------- =20 The 2oo2 issue features the writings of:=20 =20 =20 Alice Notley =20 Kristen Gallagher =20 Jesse Seldess =20 =20 Thom Donovan =20 =20 Fiona Templeton =20 =20 Leslie Scalapino =20 Patrick F. Durgin = =20 Katherine Wagner =20 Melissa Ragona =20 Michael Magee =20 =20 Luisa Giugliano =20 Andy Carter =20 =20 Martin Corless-Smith =20 =20 Claudia Keelan =20 Jerome Rothenberg =20 =20 Gregg Biglieri =20 =20 Steve McCaffery =20 Lyn Hejinian =20 =20 Raymond Federman =20 =20 Nick Piombino =20 =20 Marjorie Perloff =20 =20 & Charles Bernstein =20 =20 Kiosk is a journal of poetry, poetics, & experimental prose published = annually with the support of the Poetics Program and Department of = English at the State University of New York at Buffalo. This year's = edition of 276 pages (7 x 8 =BD) is perfect-bound, and printed on = off-white 65 lb. paper with cover art by Christopher Reitmaier. A $4.oo = check made out to Kiosk secures an annual subscription (overseas, please = add $1). =20 =20 Kiosk is edited by Gordon Hadfield, Sasha Steensen, and Kyle = Schlesinger. =20 =20 Please direct all inquiries, submissions, and subscriptions to the = editors at: =20 Kiosk : A Journal of Poetry, Poetics, and Experimental Prose = =20 State University of New York at Buffalo = =20 Samuel Clemens Hall Room 306 = =20 Buffalo, New York 14260-4610 =20 On the Web at: http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/Kiosk.html =20 e-mail: kioskjournal@hotmail.com =20 =20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:27:23 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit yes and make sure you send a dust sample to homeland security wonder do they snort it for testing Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:31:24 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Schlesinger Subject: Kiosk's Proper Web Address MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kiosk's proper web address at the EPC is: = http://writing.upenn.edu/epc/mags/kiosk.html Thanks (again) to Patrick and Loss. Kyle Schlesinger=20 ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 10:53:07 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Christina Milletti Subject: BathHouse: Call for Submissions MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <> *FALL ISSUE: Deadline October 1 BathHouse, a new on-line journal of hybrid literature and literary arts based at Eastern Michigan University, seeks submissions for its first issue. Dedicated to promoting cross-genre and hybrid writing, BathHouse values innovative and interdisciplinary writing and art in diverse forms--projects that emerge out of interstices or tensions at peripheries, work that arises between boundaries, beyond limits. We are looking for fiction, poetry, multimedia, hypermedia, and/or audio pieces. *However we are particularly interested in projects that resist these categories.* *SPRING ISSUE: Deadline February 1 The BathHouse "bath house" issue. Please send work on bathhouse themes: buried streams, sanitoriums, ancient seas, miracle cures, snake oil remedies, chronic vapors, and related topics. SUBMISSION GUIDELINES Please send your submissions by e-mail to bhouse@emunix.emich.edu, or by post to BathHouse, Eastern Michigan University, Department of English, 612 Pray-Harrold, Ypsilanti, MI 48197.All paper submissions must be accompanied by SASE for return. E-mailed text submissions should be sent as PC compatible attachments. Hypermedia and digital art submissions can be sent as zip files. Alternatively, if you provide a link in your e-mail, the editors will view your work on your home website. Visit BathHouse at: http://www.emunix.emich.edu/~bhouse/ _______________________________ Christina Milletti Assistant Professor of English Eastern Michigan University ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:00:19 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: I just don't get it. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (severely babelfished listbabble...) I find difficulty in accepting this argument. The representation that I am convinced has garnered interest. After poetry, ideas cannot be useful. A little moment that crystallizes "a critical thought" took place in a school. What is this will that takes place in the school? A number, the great one of the development of the exhibitions of the producers. Publish each interest for the other. The damage of this process is an indicated name, the rum a silly man drank. I have to consider this note always because I think that sensitivity blocked something. It is confused to begin with. The numerous effort to prevent the completely closed exclusion. Several of these producers write. This result has much to form with the intellectual climate of the treated poetry of systems. Enter the screen for these poets. The hour is present in a new second that tests poetics. I contained only the information and the test and the information with periodic material. Poetics of the zone names only some important efforts. The broken academy orders the anthology of egg yolk and the literary report of the straits. Translate a poet for the group. A safe disorder will be evident. You can probably do poetics for the institute of the premise theoreticians. I hold a basket case rife with conclusions. They suggest, leave the word. Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !Getting Close Is What! ! We're All About(TM) ! !http://proximate.org/! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:40:19 -0500 Reply-To: "Patrick F. Durgin" Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Patrick F. Durgin" Subject: Rachel Blau DuPlessis & Susan Schultz @ EPC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Significant updates have been made to the DuPlessis and Schultz author = pages: http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/duplessis http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/schultz Please have a look & best wishes - Patrick K e n n i n g [a newsletter of contemporary poetry, poetics, and nonfiction writing] 383 Summer Street (lower), Buffalo NY 14213, USA www.durationpress.com/kenning ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 12:35:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: schwartzgk Subject: Poetry On The Peaks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For Immediate Release: POEMS TO BE READ ON MT. MARCY AND ALBANY FOR THE UNITED NATIONS Type: Performance Place: Mt. Marcy and Albany, New York, USA Date(s): July 27th and 28th __________________ Saturday, July 27th, 5:00 AM Mt. Marcy, New York State Sunday, July 28th, 2:00 PM Book House of the Stuyvesant Plaza 1475 Western Avenue, Albany, NY, USA 12203 Gerald Schwartz Will perform "Rondeau", an epic-length poem about the Adirondack Hermit, = Noah John Rondeau as part of POETRY ON THE PEAKS, honoring the United = Nations declaration of 2002 as the "International Year of The Mountains" = (IYM) in an effort to increase international awareness of the global = importance of mountain ecosystems. In addition, Carol Govan, along with Marcy Weber (named for the = mountain) will read their poems about mountains and climbing. In addition to the Mt. Marcy climb, poets and others will climb = mountains the world over reading poems by Pablo Neruda, Walt Whitman, = Gary Snyder, Rumi, William Blake, and the Dalia Lama, among many others. For more information: Contact: Gerald Schwartz schwartzgk@msn.com 585.266.2392 or visit the website: http://www.dialoguepoetry.org/mountain.htm -30- ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 19:37:05 -0400 Reply-To: baratier@megsinet.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: David Baratier Organization: Pavement Saw Press Subject: AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit The full schedule for AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM Thursday July 25th promptly at 8:30—11:00 pm Casablanca's The corner of Mound & High, Downtown Columbus, Ohio --easy to reach on the bus-- --plenty o' parking-- in a pleasant sub-terrainian setting A Pavement Saw Reading pre-Second Wave opener & release party for Daniel Zimmerman received Pavement Saw's editor's choice award in 2000 for his first book-length collection, Post-Avant, which has a forward by Bob Creeley. A chapbook of his anagrammatical poems, Isotopes, recently appeared from London (Frame Publications, 2001) and another chapbook Blue Horitals (Oasis, 1997) was co-written with Jack Clarke. He teaches English at Middlesex County College in Edison, NJ. Aralee Strange, a poet and playwright, who wrote, produced and edited, ETTA STONE: A Film for Radio, which was broadcast nationally on NPR. Her first full length film as a director THIS TRAIN, which stars Soupy Sales, was completed in late August. She is now editing the film, which is expected to be completed by the end of this year. Strange has been awarded grants and fellowships from a number of arts organizations and foundations, including the MacDowell Colony, the Ohio Arts Council, and the Kentucky Foundation for Women. Sheila E. Murphy’s selected poems Falling in Love Falling in Love with you Syntax was published in 1997. More recent collections include The Indelible Occasion (Potes & Poets Press); Familiar Hinges (Wild Honey Press, Ireland); Immersion Tones (Luna Bisonte Prods). Recently she has been a featured reader at the Arvon Foundation at Totleigh-Barton, Devon, UK, and at the annual Brisbane Writers Festival in Queensland, Australia. Jesse Glass from Japan who has appeared in Hambone, Angel Exhaust. and Shearsman, and on the web at Ubu.com, 3.A.M. and lots of other places. His most recent book is Trimorphic Potennoia (Elephantine Press, Holland). Expect a bevy of other unannounced readers from throughout the US MC: David Baratier Editor of Pavement Saw Press $5 at the door —or $9 to include a copy of the most recent journal --------- SCHEDULE for Friday & Saturday July 26-27, 2002 for AN AMERICAN AVANT GARDE: SECOND WAVE SYMPOSIUM All sessions to be in the Main Library at The Ohio State University, except for Marvin Sackner's Keynote Address. Friday July 26 3:30 PM - short readings by conference presenters (room 122) 4:30 PM - Reception in the Exhibit Hall 6:00 PM - Keynote Address by Marvin Sackner, "Survey of the Archive" (with powerpoint). In the Grand Lounge of the OSU Faculty Club. Saturday July 27 ROOM 122 8:00 - Registration, Welcome and Introductions. 9:00 - mIEKAL aND, Poetry Presentation (computer-CD-ROM) 9:30 - Ficus strangulensis, Visual Poetry Presentation (overhead proj.) 10:00 - Igor Satanovsky, The Cutting Edge: Re-Imaging the Canon (slide proj.) 10:30 - Carlos Luis, Reading 11:00 - Jesse Glass, Reading (CD boombox) 11:30 - Scott Helmes, Visual Specere: 1972-2002 (2 slide proj.) 12:00 - LUNCH 1:00 - John Byrum & Arleen Hartman, Generator & Another Incomplete Understanding (2 slide proj. & boombox) 1:30 - Michael Peters, Wholesale Form: An Attack on the Corporate Form with Text and Sound (powerpoint & boombox) 2:00 - K. S. Ernst, Is Visual the Opposite of Verbal? (slide proj.) 2:30 - Thomas L. Taylor, Reading and Visuals (2 slide proj. & boombox) 3:00 - Michael Magazinnik, Soundvisual Poetry in Performance (slide proj.) 3:30 - Bob Grumman, Doing Long Division in Color (overhead proj.) 4:00 - Panel Discussion on Collaboration, Sheila E. Murphy, Moderator ROOM 327 - RARE BOOKS & MANUSCRIPTS LIBRARY 9:00 - Robert H. Jackson, William S. Burroughs' Influence on Recent Writing 9:30 - William J. Austin, Against Formalism: Experiments with Internality 10:00 - Brandon Barr, Webbed Minimalism 10:30 - Jennifer Bosveld, Poetry as Extreme Sport: Difficulties on the Road to Invention 11:00 - Irving Weiss, Malcolm de Chazal's Sens-Plastique 11:30 - Michael Basinski, Aural Concrete 12:00 - LUNCH 1:00 - Geoffrey Gatza, Tantalum: The Congo War Interpreted Through Consumer Acuity 1:30 - David Baratier, The Letter as Viral Instrument in the Post-Consumer Age 2:00 - Peter Ganick, Reading 2:30 - Sheila E. Murphy, Reading 3:00 - John M. Bennett, Reading 3:30 - Joel Lipman, Reading ROOM 124 Continual showings: Lewis LaCook, Flash presentation (computer) Catherine Pancake, The Suit (story by Al Ackerman) (VHS) Steve Steele, Kant's Gnawser (story by Al Ackerman) (VHS) Ivan Arguelles, Reading (VHS) Nico Vassilakis, 16 walls (computer) Jake Berry, Silence and the Hammer (VHS) Jim Leftwich, Mark, Stimulus, Noise (VHS) Richard Kostelanetz, A Life In/Of Words (computer) >------------- On Sunday, @ 349 E Morrill Ave in the heart of Columbus' south end those who are still in town & have an interest in socializing & reading we are having shindig at our house-- our plan: Noon -- Head Chef & Associate Editor, Stephen Mainard, leads the rest of the Pavement Saw interns into the uncharted area of outdoor barbeque. 1:00 to 2:30 pm -- Out of town readers including Ultimate Pavement Saw & previous issue contributors mIEKAL aND is a longtime DIY cultural anarchist & the creator of an infoplex worth of visual-verbal lit, audio-art, performance ritual & hypermedia for the Macintosh, all distributed by Xexoxial Editions. His hypermedia works reside at JOGLARS Crossmedia Broadcast (http://cla.umn.edu/joglars). Recent work has focused on activating online collaborative workspaces where writers & media artists can create collective digital works in a real time environment. Since 1991, he has made his home at Dreamtime Village (http://www.dreamtimevillage.org), a hypermedia / permaculture village project, located in the driftless bioregion of southwestern Wisconsin. aND devotes much time to creating edible wilderness indoors & out, growing such things as figs, citrus, cherries, grapes & chestnuts. 1998 marked the creation of THE DRIFTLESS GROTTO OF WEST LIMA, a permanent public grotto/park/installation which when finished will feature a bird-operated time machine in a 25 ft blue glass tower. 2:30- 3pm Richard Kostelanetz: Seductions Individual entries on RICHARD KOSTELANETZ appear in Contemporary Poets, Contemporary Novelists, Postmodern Fiction, Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians, A Reader's Guide to Twentieth-Century Writers, the Merriam-Webster Encyclopedia of Literature, Webster's Dictionary of American Authors, The HarperCollins Reader's Encyclopedia of American Literature, and the Encyclopedia Britannica, among other distinguished directories. Living in New York, where he was born, he still needs $1.50 (US) to take a subway. 3 pm Closing Ceremony, led by John M. Bennett (mental and physical integrity permitting) Sorry, the fireworks were cancelled due to when people's flights were leaving. Call me for directions, 614-445-0534 Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press PO Box 6291 Columbus OH 43206 USA http://pavementsaw.org ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 20:17:52 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: dcmb Subject: Re: The Poetics of Author Photos MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Gary, these suthor photo one-liners are right on. inspiring me to write my own: "I have washed my face and combed my hair to have my pic taken. I am smiling for the camera. I look entirely respectable. Their bodies are hidden in shallow graves. " I loved yr note abt my eork, in SPD catalog. Youre the first to ideintify my poetry as always trying to escape its previous identity. I hope you might expand on that insight somewhat for JACKET. Pllease give my best wishes to Nada, and accept the same for yourself. BTW, do you know Lissa Wolsak's poetry? I love it. David -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sullivan To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Date: Friday, May 10, 2002 9:49 AM Subject: Re: The Poetics of Author Photos >Hi David, > >>What theoretical texts would be helpful in thinking the author photo? > >http://www.midwestbookreview.com/bookbiz/advice/photo.htm > >Also, Barrett Watten supposedly presented somewhere a piece apparently >critiquing a cover for the SPD catalog I did, where I drew pics of poets. >The rumor I heard was that he made some kind of relationship between those >pics or how they were being used and the Mickey Mouse Club. I've always >wanted to read it, in part to see if it really was as critical as the rumors >had it, but also of course to see what the specific criticism might be. (I'm >hoping he'll read this and e-mail it to me.) Anyway, my guess is that while >not strictly about the author photo, it obviously was about the visual >presentation of authors -- so is probably something you might want to ask >him to e-mail to you, too. > >I have a lot of favorite author photos. Thinking about them, I realize what >an amazing range of types there are: > >See the many books in the case behind my head? I have read and am familiar >with each of them. > >I am a survivor. My hunched back and the rings under my eyes do testify. > >I do not need to shave, brush my teeth, comb my hair, change my clothing, >nor eat ... for, poetry sustains me! > >When this photo was taken, I was unaware, so lost in thought was I. > >Here I am in the city. It's a big, scary city. I make this big, scary city >my home. You, reading my poety in the hinterlands, you do not know this >city! > >I am white, my turtleneck black. > >Of course I'll have sex with you. Why else would I pose like this? > >Having finished carefully crafting each of the poems in this collection, I >have rolled back down the sleeves of my Pendleton. > >Yes, that is X, the famous poet, next to me. We are on speaking terms! > >Obviously, I am insane. Colorful anecdotes of my unbalanced nature precede >me. The wind blows through my hair ... O, poetry! > > > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. >http://www.hotmail.com > ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 23:44:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: Upcoming Atlanta poetry events Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IN JULY Saturday, July 20, 2002 at the Teaspace (down the alley next to A Cappella Books, Little Five Points) The Nu South Improvisers=92 Coalition meets The Atlanta Poets Group featuring: Roger Ruzow .............Brass Dasheel Smith.............Brass/Reeds J.S. Van Buskirk.............Voice Zac Denton.............Voice Mark Prejsnar.............Voice James Sanders.............Voice ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ IN AUGUST Wednesday August 14 - will start about 9:00 pm ... ATLANTA POETS=20 GROUP--summer event. Leave your dickey at the door! the longest=20 running experimental poetry outfit in atlanta cordially invites you to=20= succumb to the temptations of poetry/poetry experience in an enclosed=20 space. it's that all-poetry spa vacation you've been promising yourself:=20= sound poems, vizpo, multivoice poems, improv poetry, full-body poetry,=20= object poetry, virtual poetry, square dance poetry, and of course poetry=20= on paper. it will be lively and fun and just a little challenging (in a=20= good way) to see what happens when we play with language for your AND=20 our enjoyment! Poetry can be nutritious AND delicious! all you have to=20= lose is your occlusion; that which denies that ALL LANGUAGE IS POETRY. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 00:06:12 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Lingua MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Lingua start_dozing start_idling idle/reidle doing/undoing ---------------------------------- You attempt to kiss yourself. ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- I don't understand that. ----------------------------------- You say, "I want to view the whole wide world. I want to be the whole wide world." ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- You say, "I, in my idleness, will become vast. I will see vastly. I will bear witness in my languor." ----------------------------------- You say, ""You need definition. You need the clarity of sex, the desire of language, the fear of love when you are falling near the rim or lip of a cliff." ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- You say, "The cliff is sublime." ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- Root Class isn't here. ----------------------------------- You pucker your lips expectantly. ----------------------------------- You attempt to kiss yourself. ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- Jan isn't here. ----------------------------------- Generic room isn't here. ----------------------------------- Generic builder isn't here. ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- You cry. ----------------------------------- You say, "On the lip or edge of the cliff, I am crying, with all this beauty." ----------------------------------- You say, "@create $thing called Sublime" ----------------------------------- You say, "@create $thing called Beauty" ----------------------------------- You laugh. ----------------------------------- You say, "I am on the edge of the world." ----------------------------------- I see no "world" here. ----------------------------------- You say, "I am on the edge of the universe." ----------------------------------- I see no "universe" here. ----------------------------------- You say, "I am dying of love..." ----------------------------------- You are dying, dying of love ... ----------------------------------- You say, "The world is dying of everywhere." ----------------------------------- I see no "everywhere." here. ----------------------------------- You say, "You are dying, of existence." ----------------------------------- You say, "You are dying, of existence." ----------------------------------- You say, "You are dying, of existence." ----------------------------------- I see no "existence..." here. ----------------------------------- (falling near the rim or edge of a cliff) ----------------------------------- ___ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:30:57 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: publication MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is just to say. ACTION REPLAY post script. A modest publication to follow a series of exhibitions re-visiting NZ art of the 1970s--performance, video, installation, all that good stuff has just appeared. I was a co-curator of the exhibition and wrote one of the two essays (there are also images from the show). It is a memoir of sorts in which I ravel and unravel the weave of art writing, poetry, and 'post object' art as we called it, that the times seemed to demand. It is available from artsspace@artspace.org.nz. Price $10 ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:49:30 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: brunton: beating on the door of the next world MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alan M. Brunton Christchurch 14 October 1946 - Amsterdam 27 June 2002 beating on the door of the next world / like a hammer on a stone The sudden death of Alan Brunton is a great blow.=20 I am posting obituaries from The New Zealand Herald (Auckland) and TheEvening Post and The Dominion, Wellington. =20 =20 06.07.2002 By PETER CALDER=20 * Poet, scriptwriter, performer. Died aged 55.=20 One evening in early 1970, Alan Brunton was sharing a stage with some = of the elder statesmen of New Zealand poetry. Kendrick Smithyman was there and Keith Sinclair, and Karl Stead too as I recall.=20 When his turn came, the youngest reader, plainly unintimidated by the company he was keeping, strode to the edge of the platform and dropped = the needle on a scratchy LP. The insistent guitar riff of Led Zeppelin's = Whole Lotta Love filled the hall.=20 "I just thought," he drawled raffishly after the entire song had = played, "you'd like to hear some poetry before I started reading."=20 The stunt seems slightly gauche now, suspicious as we are of exuberance = and grand gesture. But for Brunton, who died suddenly in Amsterdam last = week, exuberance was a native language.=20 As poet and performer, he was always breaking boundaries and inciting = those who worked with him to do the same.=20 In July 1969 (coinciding, to his endless delight, with the first moon = walk), he founded the poetry magazine Freed, which took its name from his = manifesto that the word is freed from the traditions that stifle creativity.=20 In the quarter century that followed, he published 12 volumes of poetry (latterly under his own imprint, Bumper Books) and co-edited an = anthology of New Zealand poems from those early decades.=20 He was writer in residence at Canterbury University in 1998. But more visibly, he co-founded with partner Sally Rodwell the enduring, = anarchic and inventive experimental theatre troupe Red Mole, which cut a wild yet = elegant dash across the cultural life of the nation.=20 Like many of our artists, he was more honoured abroad than at home. He = wrote pointedly in a recent biographical note that he had appeared at international festivals in Colombia, Denmark and Norway but not yet in = his own country. Yet in its bases in New York, New Mexico and Amsterdam = from 1978 to 1988, Red Mole was legendary.=20 Brunton and Rodwell returned to Wellington in late 1988 and Red Mole prospered, staging performances and workshops and sponsoring tours by international performers.=20 He had just begun a new tour with a show called Grooves of Glory when = he died. He is survived by Rodwell and a daughter, Ruby.=20 <<...OLE_Obj...>> =09 Alan Brunton publications & biography =09 THE EVENING POST, 4 JUL 2002, Edition 3, Page 9. Theatre revolutionary = Tom Cardy Alan Mervyn Brunton, poet, editor, publisher, playwright, actor, director, film maker and performance artist: B Christchurch, Oct 14, = 1946; m 1975 Sally Rodwell 1d; ed Hamilton BHS, Akld Univ, Vic Univ; ed Freed = 1969, co-ed Spleen 1976-77 and Big Smoke 2000, co-fdr Red Mole Theatre 1974, co-dir Eye Of The Tiger 1985 and City Of Night 2000; albums Crossing = The Tracks 1978 and 33 Perfumes Of Pleasure 1998; publns incl Messengers In Blackface 1973, Black & White Anthology 1976, Oh Ravachol 1978, And She = Said 1984, New Order 1986, A Red Mole Sketchbook and Day For A Daughter = 1989, Slow Passes and Romaunt Of Glossa 1991, Ephphatha 1994, Goin' To = Djibouti 1996, Years Ago Today 1997, Comrade Savage 2000, Gonne Strange Charity = 2000, Ecstasy 2001; d Amsterdam, June 27, 2002. The Capital's international = arts festival and numerous buskers have made Wellington a touch blas=E9 = about shows that throw theatre, music, dance, poetry, outlandish costumes and circus-style tricks into the mix. But go back nearly 30 years and = Wellington audiences didn't know what had hit them with the Red Mole experimental theatre group. Alan Brunton, founder with his wife Sally Rodwell, took = on a wide variety of artists along the way, including poet Ian Wedde, = musician Jan Preston, actor Cathy Downes and musician Midge Marsden. They = ignored the usual stuffy boundaries between the performing arts - and equally = stuffy venues - and turned theatre, cabaret, music and dance upside down. = Brunton's talent and influence as a pioneer performance artist - and mentor - was considerable. Red Mole shows were known for their openness, frenetic = energy and - a Brunton trademark - large dollops of humour. The first show = Whimsy And The Seven Spectacles - to Stravinsky's March Of The Elephants - was = held at Victoria University's student union in November 1974. Wellington = Town Hall and theatre venues were later used, but Red Mole staged shows in = the last places people ever expected to see avant garde theatre - James = Smith's store, parks, nightclubs, rock concerts, and, in the summer, country = halls and motor camps. A Wellington venue which fitted Red Mole's = iconoclastic bent - and one of it's biggest shows - was a late night stint in 1977 = at Carmen's transvestite strip club, The Balcony, on the corner of = Victoria and Harris streets. The line up for Red Mole's Golden Hits was a Who's Who = of Kiwi talent, including Marsden, singer Beaver, Wayne Mason, Barry = Saunders, Andy Anderson, Mary Jane O'Reilly, Rick Bryant - and Carmen. "It was = partly a sleazy audience if you like, but it also turned into an audience for = their work," Wedde recalls. "People would go there not just to watch the = trannies strip, but also to watch the show." Red Mole had already touched a = wider audience the same year, opening shows for Split Enz. They later were in line-ups with Th' Dudes, Citizen Band and The Suburban Reptiles. In = 1978 Sam Neill directed a 50-minute documentary film On The Road With Red Mole. Brunton's inspiration to write started early. At 14 he read Colin = Wilson's The Outsider, which detailed the likes of Van Gogh and Nijinsky. "At = the same time (at school), I'm being thrashed by sadistic wretches, beaten = with rattan canes . . . This is what's going on as I discover I want to = write," he said last year. But other teachers, who were Czech refuges, taught = him Rilke and he read Shelley and Blake. Brunton contributed poems to = student magazines from 1968 while completing a masters degree in English at Victoria. In 1969 he helped found Freed magazine - editing the first = two issues of experimental poetry and writing. The same year at an avant = garde cabaret in Auckland he hammered bits of wood together to make the word = poem. Brunton spent three years in Europe and Asia from 1970, and had his = first book Messengers In Blackface published. When he founded Red Mole in = 1974 Brunton would sketch out a scenario and let the actors fill it. It was = some time until he was confident to write complete scripts. He ended up = writing and performing about 45. For 10 years from 1978 Red Mole were based in = the United States and Europe. In New York their base was the Lower East = Side at Avenue C and Ninth St - in the 1980s a rough Puerto Rican = neighbourhood. They performed on the streets, with New York-based Kiwi band The = Drongos, at a theatre in the then-sleazy Times Square and Riker's Island prison. Washington DC dates included a children's theatre and Thanksgiving Day = at the New Zealand Embassy. Brunton, Rodwell and daughter Ruby - born = while in New Mexico - returned to Wellington in 1988. He continued to perform = under Red Mole and other guises here and overseas, and to write, edit and collaborate with other artists. He founded publishing company Bumper = Books to produce some of his and other writers' works. He was Canterbury University's writer in residence in 1998. He helped found the Save = Erskine College Trust to protect the historic building near his Island Bay = home, directed short films, recorded albums, and support young Wellington musicians and performers, particularly The Space venue in Newtown. Much = of their work has been inspired or influenced by Red Mole. Brunton died = after suffering heart attack in Amsterdam - one of his favourite cities. He = was touring the Red Mole show Grooves Of Glory with Rodwell and young The = Space musician Jeff Henderson. The show had already been well-received in = Oslo. Red Mole were due to perform in Warsaw and New York. * Sources: Post library, JAAM 16, Brief 19, I Wedde, M Leggott, M McNamara, M Edmond.=09 The unique theatrical voice of Alan Brunton was stilled last week. Timothy O'Brien gives his appreciation of Brunton's artistic legacy.=20 Alan Brunton was the possessor of a unique voice whom the arts in which = he excelled will sorely miss. Yet the sad fact is that, till his untimely death at the age of 55 in Amsterdam last week, his contribution as poet, publisher, director and = actor had been overlooked in New Zealand recently. Where 20 years ago the theatre group Red Mole had been almost a = household name, playing widely throughout the country, latterly mere handfuls = made it to The Space in Newtown for their last show Grooves of Glory. Yet when I made that journey myself, it was to rediscover of a group = whose signature was still unmistakable but whose art had become more deep and humane, more exhilarating in its economic theatricality, than one remembered. In the writing and performance of that piece, one could see = what set Brunton apart. Those were an unfashionable commitment to a high style, to words which intoxicated, to allusion and intelligence. There was no element of the desiccated and ironically detached observation of trivialities which often passes for profundity. Brunton's scripts brought the whole dictionary into play because the = work was about big things that mattered - love, the universe, everything. The show proved that, if public neglect had been a high price to pay = for an uncompromising commitment to artistic vision, the prolific Brunton had = not wasted his time failing to create. Along with Sally Rodwell, his partner - a weak and corporate word to describe such a conspiracy of minds and bodies - he had continued to = express the Mole's radical theatrical vision in the practice of community = theatre. But their idea of that was far from the worthy dullness that the name conjures - all who took part, whatever their talent, became part of a magical encounter with theatre and ideas. It's this continuing = engagement with new players that will ensure Red Mole's ideas and Brunton's = visionary approach to poetry and theatre remain at large. Brunton's death came after he and Rodwell had performed Grooves to = acclaim at a theatrical festival in Norway. Here are the last words of that = show. I leave to you my previously unreleased catalogue, the A and O of my substance, my cowboy songs, the postcards I never sent from the Hell I lived in without you, little dancer da da da, I leave to you these things, this and this, this everything, little dancer, as you go as you go I return the bird you gave to me little dancer, I return the bowl with its few drops of the Great Juice I carried along = your Silk Road, stopping at each fountain of mineral water for a miracle I leave for you, where I listened to the conversations at tables in cafes when citizens regulated the Public Interest and all their decisions I leave to you little dancer, there you go there you go the nomadic nights I searched for `the herb Lunatica' I leave to you little dancer because that's how much I enjoyed your company Life goes from A to B that's it that's the secret . . . little dancer . . . ========================================================================= Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 21:57:40 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Andrews Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program In-Reply-To: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT This is not a laughing matter. Thank you, Patrick Herron, for posting the below information. It is barely believable that the USA is about to embark on such (another) massive mistake. But indeed it is. Argentina here we come. bin Laden might get a chuckle out of this one, but Americans should not. It is very bad news indeed. I strongly hope that Americans do not allow their government to create a nation of informants. What a prospect. Not that Canada, where I live, is far behind. Bill C 36 (http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=%22bill+c+36%22 ) is the 'anti-terrorism legislation introduced here not long ago. "Bill C-36 does not represent an appropriate balance between civil rights and national security. Bill C-36 is a threat to the fundamental rights and freedoms of those living in Canada. Nor does it meet standards of fairness, openness and accountability that are the hallmark of democratic government" (from http://www.policyalternatives.ca/publications/c-36.html ). ja Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 17:33:58 -0400 From: Patrick Herron Subject: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program http://www.citizencorps.gov/ From the Sydney Morning Herald Web site 15 July 2002 http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/07/14/1026185141232.html US planning to recruit one in 24 Americans as citizen spies By Ritt Goldstein July 15 2002 The Bush Administration aims to recruit millions of United States citizens as domestic informants in a program likely to alarm civil liberties groups. The Terrorism Information and Prevention System, or TIPS, means the US will have a higher percentage of citizen informants than the former East Germany through the infamous Stasi secret police. The program would use a minimum of 4 per cent of Americans to report "suspicious activity". Civil liberties groups have already warned that, with the passage earlier this year of the Patriot Act, there is potential for abusive, large-scale investigations of US citizens. As with the Patriot Act, TIPS is being pursued as part of the so-called war against terrorism. It is a Department of Justice project. Highlighting the scope of the surveillance network, TIPS volunteers are being recruited primarily from among those whose work provides access to homes, businesses or transport systems. Letter carriers, utility employees, truck drivers and train conductors are among those named as targeted recruits. A pilot program, described on the government Web site www.citizencorps.gov, is scheduled to start next month in 10 cities, with 1 million informants participating in the first stage. Assuming the program is initiated in the 10 largest US cities, that will be 1 million informants for a total population of almost 24 million, or one in 24 people. [...] ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 02:29:55 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Robin Blaser Volume Now Available from NPF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The National Poetry Foundation is very pleased to announce the publication of Even on Sunday: Essays, Readings, and Archival Materials on the Poetry and Poetics of Robin Blaser Edited by Miriam Nichols 393pp * $24.95 * ISBN 0-943373-65-4 (pbk) * Simultaneously published as volume seventeen of Sagetrieb: Poetry and Poetics after Modernism (current subscribers may look for it in the mail shortly) ---Please Scroll to Bottom of Message for Ordering Information--- BRIEF DESCRIPTION A long-overdue recognition of Robin Blaser's indispensable contribution to 20th-century poetry and poetics. Editor Miriam Nichols has brought together an international gathering of scholars and poets to investigate and celebrate the fifty-year career of Robin Blaser, a poet who first emerged in the early 1950s as a key figure--along with Jack Spicer and Robert Duncan--in the Berkeley Renaissance and has since become a defining presence in the poetries of both the U.S. and Canada. Blaser's poetics of passionate companionship--exemplified by the important new long poem on Dante included in this volume--is examined from a broad range of historically- and theoretically-informed perspectives. In addition to offering a synthetic introduction to Blaser's oeuvre and a revelatory new interview with the poet, Nichols has also assembled an illuminating section of archival materials that includes extensive transcripts from Blaser's important "Astonishments" lectures of the early 1970s and a previously unpublished exchange (edited by Kevin Killian) on "Eastern Poetry and Western Poetry" that took place between Blaser, Spicer, and Duncan in 1956. A delightful set of rare photographs of Blaser rounds out a comprehensive volume that makes an ideal companion to Blaser's _The Holy Forest_ (Coach House, 1993). FULL TABLE OF CONTENTS Great Companion: Dante Alighere I by Robin Blaser (3-21) CRITICAL ESSAYS AND READINGS Introduction: Reading Robin Blaser by Miriam Nichols (25-77) Robin Blaser at Lake Paradox by George Bowering (79-96) "Companions are horizons": "I," "You," Robin Blaser, and Emily Dickinson by David Sullivan (97-123) A Minimum of Matter: Notes on Robin Blaser, "The Fire," and "The Moth Poem" by Norma Cole (125-133) Recovering the Public World: Robin Blaser and the Discourses of Subjectivity and Otherness in Image-Nations 1-12 by Andrew Mossin (135-165) Writing/Repeating Community: Robin Blaser's Image-Nation Series by Scott Pound (167-177) An Elegy for Theory: Robin Blaser's Essay "The Practice of Outside" by Peter Middleton (179-206) Music at the Heart of Thinking by Fred Wah (207-216) Still, and Despite by Paul Kelley (217-251) ARCHIVAL MATERIALS Dialogue on Eastern and Western Poetry, Boston 1956 by Robin Blaser and Jack Spicer with annotations by Robert Duncan | edited by Kevin Killian (255-273) Excerpts from Astonishments by Robin Blaser | edited by Miriam Nichols (275-347) Interview with Robin Blaser by Miriam Nichols (349-392) ORDERING INFORMATION You may order from UPNE on-line at http://www.dartmouth.edu/acad-inst/upne/0-943373-65-4.html or by calling 1-800-421-1561. You may also order directly from the National Poetry Foundation (individuals only) by calling 207- 581-3813 or by writing to Gail Sapiel at . New subscriptions to Sagetrieb are especially welcome at this time and will be rewarded with detailed instruction on the proper pronunciation of the journal's title (usually available only through secret initiation at NPF summer conferences). Rates are as follows: Individual $20.00; institute $37.00; subscribers located outside the U.S., please add $5.00 per year for additional shipping. Issues 18.1 (open) and 18.2/3 (William Carlos Williams Special Issue) will go out to new subscribers early this fall. Please contact Gail Sapiel at for more subscription information. Other queries can be directed to co-editors Benjamin Friedlander and Steve Evans . ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 04:12:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Self-Ex MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Self-Ex A loudmouth and depressive to boot. A programming and hacking fraud knowing less than a ten year old. Absolutely no reason to believe that things are getting better. Always afraid of losing my friends. As if quantity established meaning in the world. At the age of 59, I can't get a decent university job. Avatars save nothing and hardly speak to me. Azure brings light and a small comfort into my life. Azure has been so good for me. Azure was enfolded in my arms. Believe I am a genius yet I don't know what that means. Can't imagine what she finds in me. Carry books as a security blanket. Constantly afraid of starving to death, being unable to work. Constantly feel I let her down. Couldn't stop thinking about them. Disordered of everything these memories. Don't deserve so much beauty. Don't know how they can stand me. Don't want to have anything attributed to the wrong person. Dreaming of iceflows, Inuit dreams. Ended up in the hospital with a panic attack in Miami. Every day I face my own failure, economically, artistically. Everything is flows and chance, randomness. Everywhere I live seems like a holocaust that I bring with me. Fading and evanescent avatars. Hard to accept that Azure loves me. Hold onto my work as a drowning man. Hold onto small hopes of employment like someone terminally ill. I'm writing this and sorting this to defend myself. If it reaches a point when I can no longer function, I wish to be put to death. It doesn't matter that I'm an excellent and inspiring teacher. It's as if my name meant something somewhere. Jealous of people who can take the day off happily. Jealous of the money people have when I can't afford clothes. Looking around the corner, Nikuko watching. Migraines are increasing. My relations with other women have been terrible. My relatives tolerate me at best. My sister is my father's favorite; my brother was my mother's. My work will last millennia. My worry is that I produce quantity, not quality. Nothing in my life beyond Azure, my friends, my daughter. Nothing is attributed. Police circling the neighborhood again in the middle of the night. Preparing to grade GREs and frightened out of my mind I won't pass. She has to be faced with my failures, my depressions. She tolerates me and loves me and I have no idea why. Since my mother died, my family relations have been harsher. Sleeping is a horror show. Sociable, which is the final grace. States of mind in deliberate dissolution. Stress is killing me. Stupidly add up my search engine hits day after day. Terrified of losing myself as hunger and homelessness seeps in. The other day I had to suddenly stop typing and lie down. There's never enough in my world. There's no end to it. They protect me against the rest of the world. They see no point in the work I do. They were dying. This is a sign of depression as the world melds away into horror. Today I saw tiny turtles for sale in the hot Chinatown sun. Too much television and not enough instrument practice. Took Celexa and Valium, hoping for the sleep of the dead. Turn the video camera and audio on us, stripping us naked. Violence sits on one shoulder, pain on the other. Warning lights reflected on the ceiling. Was very close to passing out. When I'm not writing, I'm ripping myself apart. Worried about driving her away. Would die for her and am trying to live for her. Writing every day is obsessive-compulsive, and guarantees nothing. Writing now after trying once again to sleep. _ ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 10:25:35 -0400 Reply-To: patrick@proximate.org Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Patrick Herron Subject: Gary's Author Pics In-Reply-To: <200207170404.g6H441n3003181@mail.localweb.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gary Sullivan wrote: >I have a lot of favorite author photos. Thinking about them, I realize what >an amazing range of types there are: > >See the many books in the case behind my head? I have read and am familiar >with each of them. > >I am a survivor. My hunched back and the rings under my eyes do testify. > >I do not need to shave, brush my teeth, comb my hair, change my clothing, >nor eat ... for, poetry sustains me! > >When this photo was taken, I was unaware, so lost in thought was I. > >Here I am in the city. It's a big, scary city. I make this big, scary city >my home. You, reading my poety in the hinterlands, you do not know this >city! > >I am white, my turtleneck black. > >Of course I'll have sex with you. Why else would I pose like this? > >Having finished carefully crafting each of the poems in this collection, I >have rolled back down the sleeves of my Pendleton. > >Yes, that is X, the famous poet, next to me. We are on speaking terms! > >Obviously, I am insane. Colorful anecdotes of my unbalanced nature precede >me. The wind blows through my hair ... O, poetry! This is hilarious. I recently sent along my first "author" photo. It was of the "so lost in thought was I" variety. Patrick Patrick Herron patrick@proximate.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ! No Number Of Exclamations ! ! Will Ever Get You To Visit! ! http://proximate.org/ ! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:13:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Pardon my paranoia but does not bin laden look a lot like bush? In republican drag? Sheila ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:15:16 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit umm...not really... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sheila Massoni" To: Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program > Pardon my paranoia but does not bin laden look a lot like bush? In republican > drag? Sheila > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 09:06:45 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: MAXINE CHERNOFF Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program In-Reply-To: <002b01c22da4$c1863600$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Bush should look so good. On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Duration Press wrote: > umm...not really... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sheila Massoni" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program > > > > Pardon my paranoia but does not bin laden look a lot like bush? In > republican > > drag? Sheila > > > > > > > ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 11:28:04 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Hank Lazer Subject: MCP Series MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Poetics List folks: If you're planning a course for this fall, please consider adopting one of the Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series books for your class. With the serious cutbacks at the University of California Press, it's an important time to support the presses that are actively involved in publishing interesting poetry and poetics. The MCP Series has published eleven titles to date: Rachel Back, Led by Language: The Poetry and Poetics of Susan Howe; Christopher Beach (ed.), Artifice and Indeterminacy: An Anthology of New Poetics; Rachel Blau DuPlessis and Peter Quartermain (eds.), The Objectivist Nexus: Essays in Cultural Poetics; Kathleen Fraser, Translating the Unspeakable: Poetry and the Innovative Necessity; Loss Glazier, Digital Poetics: The Making of E-Poetries; Laura Hinton and Cynthia Hogue (eds.), We Who Love to Be Astonished: Experimental Women's Writing and Performance Poetics; Nathaniel Mackey, Discrepant Engagement: Dissonance, Cross-Culturality, and Experimental Writing; Mark Scroggins, Louis Zukofsky and the Poetry of Knowledge; Juliana Spahr, Everybody's Autonomy: Connective Reading and Collective Identity; Lorenzo Thomas, Extraordinary Measures: Afrocentric Modernism and 20th-Century American Poetry; Mark Wallace and Steven Marks (eds.), Telling It Slant: Avant-Garde Poetics of the 1990s. To read more about these books, please go to the University of Alabama Press website http://www.uapress.ua.edu/ and click on Featured Series: Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series Thanks. Hank Lazer ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:37:32 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Henry Subject: New Issues of AUGHT, no. 8 and no. 9 (2002), Are Available Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="us-ascii" I'm very pleased to announce that two new issues of the on-line poetry journal AUGHT are now available. The AUGHT web site is http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/aught.htm The first new issue, AUGHT no. 8, contains a stimulating variety of fine innovative verse from 21 different poets both new and familiar to the pages of the journal, including Sheila E. Murphy, Michael Farrell, Joel Chace, and Ric Carfagna, among others. I think it's a particularly strong issue, displaying a range of innovative approaches to the written line. The second new issue, AUGHT no. 9, represents the first of what we hope will be many single-author issues to appear alongside regular issues. For this premier dedicated issue we've chosen to present new work by Portland poet and musician Chris Piuma. Just a few of the many reasons to enjoy Piuma's writing are the OuLiPo-influenced innovation (such as his use of unusual formal methods and chance operations during composition) and the overall humor and playful spirit of the writing. I hope you'll take some time to look over these exciting new issues of AUGHT. Potential contributors please note that while we are always accepting submissions, the next issue has a particular theme -- so read carefully over the information on the main AUGHT web page before emailing work. (All correspondence and submissions should be sent to "ronhenry@clarityconnect.com".) For the last five years, AUGHT has sought to provide a forum for poetry with innovative language and imagery, including (but not limited to) "language-oriented" formal experimentation. -- Ron Henry, Editor, AUGHT ronhenry@clarityconnect.com http://people2.clarityconnect.com/webpages6/ronhenry/aught.htm ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 17:08:57 -0230 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Angelo Hehir" Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program In-Reply-To: <002b01c22da4$c1863600$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII hmm. maybe the idea for this comes after seeing the cover of Tariq Ali's book _the Clash of Fundamentalisms_. this can bee readily seen by scrolling down the www.counterpunch.org page. On Wed, 17 Jul 2002, Duration Press wrote: > umm...not really... > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sheila Massoni" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 11:13 AM > Subject: Re: Bush administration readies nationwide informant program > > > > Pardon my paranoia but does not bin laden look a lot like bush? In > republican > > drag? Sheila > > > > > > > -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:50:41 -0400 Reply-To: bstefans@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Brian Stefans Subject: cellphone number, me Comments: To: bks cuny MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey yo... I have a cellphone now: 917 689 6450 -- Brian ____ A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics http://www.arras.net Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 16:57:31 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: William Slaughter Subject: Notice: Mudlark MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 19 (2002) Ronald Donn | Atheism Atheism | Title for an Untitled Painting Fire | Low Visibility | Animal in Orbit I Like Where My House Is | It Fell Author's Note: "I moved to North Louisiana in 1991 to study the Bible--and ended up by 1998 getting a MA in Creative Writing instead. In that period, I got Nabokov's referential mania, where everything is a sign. I found out reference is a matter of history, and that history destroys the individual who wants to be part of it. But the South doesn't know that. In the South, everything's a miracle. Everything's about God, is God, and that includes the most innocuous word. There's no privacy. People don't stop talking, even with their mouths closed. Poetry is way of seeking privacy from God. Having grown up in a tropical, buzzing climate, I've long been fascinated with Glen Gould's version of a personal Arctic, an Idea of North--the solitude that is itself the Question that compels the imagination to reach toward an Answer. Like Melville's white whale of atheism, the results of Christianity for me have been this so far: language works as a reflex in response to a staggeringly limitless, anarchic set of meanings implied by the natural world. If language is the imagination's reaching for the truth, then language and the soul are equivalents." Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter _________________ MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark@unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:33:52 -0700 Reply-To: cstroffo@earthlink.net Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino Subject: Re: cellphone number, me Comments: To: bstefans@earthlink.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey yo.... I have a rotary phone now.... 510 625 8084 Brian Stefans wrote: > Hey yo... > > I have a cellphone now: > > 917 689 6450 > > -- Brian > > ____ > > A R R A S: new media poetry and poetics > http://www.arras.net > > Hinka cumfae cashore canfeh, Ahl hityi oar hied 'caw taughtie! > > "Do you think just because I come from Carronshore I cannot fight? I shall > hit you over the head with a cold potatoe." ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:07:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Mark Prejsnar Subject: CORRECTED atlanta events Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v481) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable the location of the august event got cut off-- sorry ! see below --mp ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ IN JULY Saturday, July 20, 2002 at the Teaspace (down the alley next to A Cappella Books, Little Five Points) The Nu South Improvisers=92 Coalition meets The Atlanta Poets Group featuring: Roger Ruzow .............Brass Dasheel Smith.............Brass/Reeds J.S. Van Buskirk.............Voice Zac Denton.............Voice Mark Prejsnar.............Voice James Sanders.............Voice ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ IN AUGUST at the EYEDRUM GALLERY 290 Martin Luther King Jr. Drive SE Suite B Atlanta, GA Wednesday August 14 - will start about 9:00 pm ... ATLANTA POETS=20 GROUP--summer event. Leave your dickey at the door! the longest=20 running experimental poetry outfit in atlanta cordially invites you to=20= succumb to the temptations of poetry/poetry experience in an enclosed=20 space. it's that all-poetry spa vacation you've been promising yourself:=20= sound poems, vizpo, multivoice poems, improv poetry, full-body poetry,=20= object poetry, virtual poetry, square dance poetry, and of course poetry=20= on paper. it will be lively and fun and just a little challenging (in a=20= good way) to see what happens when we play with language for your AND=20 our enjoyment! Poetry can be nutritious AND delicious! all you have to=20= lose is your occlusion; that which denies that ALL LANGUAGE IS POETRY. ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 18:59:17 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Lierary vs real insanity: are we hypocrites to seek unusual thinking in poems Comments: To: Webartery List , Martha L Deed MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Someone's semi- confessional posting made me begin to write up an incident of rather unpleasant insanity; sooon I found myself drawn to using a rather insane style (which, not being insane, required extensive effort and editing to bring off) which dances around the point (if there is one) without getting anywhere. I can name the thought disorders in my piece. Looseness of association. Derailment. Tangential Thinking. A small amount of clang associations (never mind that I am defining what they are, not doing them inconsciously). Thought insertion. Lack of executive function. etc. Only, dammit -- I did the whole thing on purpose! Which brings me to the point, which is brought up again in detail with examples after the long paragraph. It seems that ways of thinking, talking, and writing which are clinically ppsychotic are desirtable in contemporary poetry. Occasionally a poet (who usuallu has no experience with actual insanity) will make the link explicitly between insanity and the thought patters of various contemporary poetries. People spend time in workshops learning to liberate themselves from reason by doing free association writing exercises, and yet, if you really think or write in free associations without trying to -- if you cannot write a paragraph with a topic sentence and three supporting sentences like they taught you in fifth grade -- you are in bad trouble. It is at best highly disagreeable for its own sake, and at worst you will be locked up until you only have one thought at a time, or, preferably, none at all. And yet writers try to escape reason, try to not to make too much sense, try not to be predictably reasonable but unpredicatably unreasonable. They flirt wiuth madness in the literary sense. Yet are they hypocrites because (I assume) they would be horribly traumatized were the real thing, madness itself, to come knocking at their door? I count myself in on this too, because I want to write without logic, I have even taught people to wrote nonsense with as little sense in it as possible. But I have HATED my real experiences with insanity, to whit: I have never yet written of the time I woke up on a bed which had the motions of a boat on rough water (only the motions were physically impossible because I tried to figure out how the waves weree moving and there were no waves and sometimes the bed went up to reach the horizontal when it had gone up to get slanted in the first place. This upset me more than the nausea as a hallucination which actually defeats the laws of reason strikes me as particularly loathesome.) I'd close my eyes to try to sleep it off, only the universe was filled with an invisible net at which there was a purple doll at each node, and these were the kind of dolls pediactricians clip on to their stethoscopes to amuse children with while with the other hand they are doing something particularly nasty to them, like taking a blood sample from their ankle or urine from the outside not even up the urethra which would be bad enough but pop through the skin and into the bladder (a doctor did this to me once at a young age; it hurt but I was even then fascinated wiuth anatomy and curious as to where exactly the bladder was found so it wasn't as bad as it could be; he was a substitute doctor never to be seen or heard from again as not surprisingly since I knew something bad would happen to me because there were tiny infantile but blood curdling screams coming out of the examiniing rooms in order as the doctor serviced them one by one, getting closer to the one in which I lay (or rather bounced around, climbed on all the furniture, looked in the drawers, and read every available piece of print -- my bipolarness must have been showing even then and thank god (not that I believe in him and I definitely felt my Constitutional rights were being violated when I sat while everyone stood and recited the Pledge of Allegiance because then I got called a commie pinko fag which terms I addressed in order to great boredom of whomever had addressed me that way, starting out with saying that the Communism of the Manifesto was attractive, but practiced nowhere, etc etc unless youo count socialist bourgeois states such as Sweden which Marx wouldn't have and at that point -- it was seventh grade -- they thought I was a REAL weirdo and if the pledge had never happened, it would have taken a half hour longer for them to discover that I was a weirdo and that they should therefore steal as many of my outergarments as possible when it was 20 degrees out, this being Buffalo, and the teachers should join in because they don't like weirdos either, especially LEFT WING weirdos: the preceeding has just been a digression suggested by the word "god" which then suggested the phrase "under God" in the pledge which as a country we aren't unless you count and believe in multiple gods; this being an example of looseness of associations, a VERY SERIOUS SYMPTOM of thought disorders. Lock me up immediatately. Send two ambulances. Don't handcuff me in front, make sure you do it in back so I can't get up to any funny business. Feed me activated charcoal in case I have taken an overdose and haven't told you. Do hemodialysis: medically unnecessary if the charcoal was in time, but it is harder to escape with TWO IVs. Search me for illicit literature. Seize my copy of Finnegan's Wake -- it doesn't begin with a Capital letter and that's just plain subversive) they didn't accuse me of hyperactivity but they reserved that for bad students and plus I was perfectly capable of sitting still -- with a good book -- I just was restless when bored), a "big kid" of four or so by which I meant that I could read (though not in cursive, and not yet upside-down, which is an essential skill if one is either going to be a chronic mental patient and need to read one's chart or else a spy or private eye so bad that, while following someone, one holds one's NY POST (because unfortunately the socioeconomic milieu of the case -- you are a low class gumshoe -- preclude being undercover and reading the Times) upside down by accident, but not such a bad spy that you would attract attention by turning it around -- in that case, it is useful to be able to read upside down, because no one can get off between subway stops and all you have to do is see that the spyee doesn't change cars only you are too dumb to have thought of that, because you know it is against the rules and you wouldn't break the rules and cannot conceive of those who would -- all thoughts which show you are in the wrong business -- so it's kind of boring because the spyee lives farthest Queens and you need to entertain yourself by reading the damn paper). Well four-year olds, in my advanced opinion, were too old to cry at the doctor's office so it didn't but when I told my mommy what he had done -- she had been there and had consented though she did not know to what -- she was horrified -- I think she thought they'd use a catheter, not a large bore needle. This of course is the trauma which explains why I was hallucinating these damn dolls and let me tell you that although I didn't see them with my eyes open, I could not keep my eyes open, and I felt like I was on a boat and it was most unpleasant, The worst though, was that several of the damn dolls were attached to me, rather tightly-- to my lip (no not that -- you have a dirty mind) and my nose and my fingers, and I could feel the pinching and knew it was the dolls but I couldn't see myself my eyes being closed nore could I feel the dolls; it was almost as if I were paralyzed. Then there was the salt: large quantities of it, pouring in various streams from the sky as if from those nice cylindrical containers of salt (who decided that a salt container -- unless it be a Kosher salt container in which case it is rectangular -- is a cylinder? Whoever it was is a genius as packaging design, and I am not being flip. Design is an interesting field and the design of physical rather than virtual things has never been my thing only because you pretty much have to be able to draft well by hand and work for a company. I can draw well-- with a vector graphics program and create images significantly less well with pixel programs like Photoshop. With the physical materials, however, I am abysmal. I painted a Spork in the loony bin and it looked like a ten year old's work and made me very upset to compare it to my fully realized Spork cartoons done in Flash which I was prevented from working on due to being committed and these horrible people wanted to send me to a program after springing me loose which would occupy my days with coloring books and glueing buttons on mayonnaise jars when I wanted desperately to get back to "work." It was driving me bonkers to have no access to a machine. I couldn't even _write_ properly there; I need at least a word processor or (for certain projects) just a notebook and some inner peace, the latter being utterly lacking in faciilities for the mentally fucked, and the fuckers admit that they do it on purpose so you won't want to stay or come back. On the other hand, they commit some people and tell them it's no use requesting a hearing because the doctor will lie at the hearing so that you have no chance, guaranteeing you get another 60 days before your case will even be reviewed...) But I think the dolls came after the bin and they were ever so purple and ever so tightly clipped and since they came when my eyes were closed I couldn't close my eyes against them and normally I knew what to take and how to deal so that I'd be back together in a little more than a half hour, reading my email or even doing something useful, only the dolls kind of made me a little dopey, so I just curled up and suffered and I may have tried to call my doctor but that's like fishing for the same fish you just threw back into the ocean, it has so little chance of success, but eventually I was found by my usually useless father whose usual response to my being in difficulty is "I can't stand this go live somewhere else like in a Home or with your Mother" especially since I was curled fetally on his bed, said "Are you psychotic [a usually exceedingly stupid question but in this case helpful]? Do you want a risperdal?" and I said "two" and later we went out to dinner like nothing had ever happened. Later still -- after another episode whihc wasn't so bad because everything looked mighty weird but I could still read my email :-) -- it turned out that the amphetamine mixture I take had just gone generic and I fiugured out mathematically why a mixture of four substances which goes generic could be farther from the original (when some of the drugs are stronger and some are weaker but they basically all do the same thing, the only difference being potency and half-life, which affects how soon they take effect adn how long before the body gets rid of them) than a single drug (you, too, can see this, think distance equals square root of sum of the squares, and recall that the rule for generics is that the quantity of active drug must be + or - 5 % (it may even be 10% -- I have reforgotten this)). Anyway, combined with my own "ability" to get psychotic, the stronger generic stuff gave me amphetamine psychosis. Through this experience and some others, I gained UNinsight into people who abuse hallucinogens. This was a Bad Trip. Why would anyone want to trip, I wondered? Yet I spend a lot of time making "trippy" webart, trying to reproduce the trippyness of madness or the trippyness of real life seen through a lens that sees the strangeness of the everyday. I like trippy poetry -- experimental poetry of all schools is basically trippy, in the sense that it eschews the normal view of reality to give you some bizarre view of the ordinary or else poetry which is about itself only and it this purely a trip. So am I a hypocrite, on the one hand promoting trippy art and on the other hand knowing by first hand experience that the trippyness of madness is no fun at all and neither is (as far as I can tell) the trippyness of too much Speed. Ever since Rimbaud, poets have deliberately tried to be crazy in order to reach the essence of trippyiness (Rimmbaud called it "le dereglement de tous les sens" = the dysregulation of all the senses, ie psychosis). Rimbaud used drugs, lack of sleep, blinding himself, etc to reach this state, and then afterwards he wrote trippy poetry such as the Illuminations series. The methods Rimbaud used will in fact induce psychosis in a normal subject, and he was none too normal. Since then, I don't think that so many Surrealists and descendants (I'm not claiming R. was a Surrealist but he was a precursor to the Surrealist movement) have _actually_ driven themselves mad, but they have sought a mental state in which the sky may be blue like an orange (please help -- my French teacher in France always used to quoted this to us and I can't remember or find the atribution). Fast forwarding to the present, some of my favorite poets write poetry which sounds absolutely, clinically psychotic. For example James Tate has paranoid psychosis exactly right. The amazing thing is that he appears to be quite sane (from what little I know about him; I once heard him read and was in the front and can usually detect illness with my patented schizdar and also I had read about him). I read that it takes him 3 hours sometimes to come up with the next line in one of his poems. I told that to my workshop students (I do workshops for mentally ill folks and we read a bunch of Tate poems and I explained that he had won the Pulitzer for a certain book whereas they felt they'd be locked up if thay said this stuff...) and they were amazed, because when you are REALLY delusional the thoughts come very quickly. Some of Clark Coolidge's poems sound pretty insane, too. And some of (this is old not new) Kenneth Patchen's concrete poetry experiments, particularly in the novel _Sleeper's Awake_ look like they are done by a crazy person who has lost control (given that that's fiction, though, you can assume the narrator and not Patchen lost control. But Patchen's biography suggests he may have been mentally ill although it's hard to tell because he was bedridden froom back trouble. Anyway, is there a fundamental dishonesty in embracing literary insanity (even specifically because one has experienced the real thing) while detesting the real thing and doing what one can to avoid it? I almost think that no writing is good that isn't a little insane -- and to me insane is sort of a blanket word meaning edgy, unexpected associations, unrealistic, visionary, incantatory, musical but off-key (because rhyming is officially a SYMPTOM if you are diagnosed with a thought disorder, ie if you talk about birds and then proceed to talk about turds and the turds of birds, that is called a "clang association" and it is a VERY BAD SIGN and you get extral Haldol), varied/digressive, etc. Poetry which isn't insane sounds like Robert Frost, or, to be fair, like Anthony Hecht or Seamus Heaney (both poets I was enthusiastic about when I first started reading poetry) who are quite quite good in their way but make too much sense. Millie ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 20:42:36 -0500 Reply-To: thomas/swiss Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: thomas/swiss Subject: New Media/Digital Poetry Conference. Last Call. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-Ascii" Last call (since hotel rooms are in short supply)-- Digital and 'New Media' Poetry=20 We're pleased to announce that the University of Iowa will be hosting a = conference on this topic. October 11-12, 2002. New Media Poetry: Aesthetics,Institutions, and Audiences Participants include: N. Katherine Hayles, Marjorie Perloff, Kenneth = Goldsmith, Jennifer Ley, Giselle Beiguelman, Katherine Parrish, Barrett = Watten, Martin Spinelli, Loss Glazier, Alan Golding, Al Filreis,Carrie = Noland, Talal Memmot, Stephanie Strickland,and others. For more information and registration: ----------------------- ========================================================================= Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 22:16:01 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You don't exist. You're not there. You never have been there. People can't see you. People can't hear you. I can't hear you. I can't see you. I can't smell you. I can't touch you in the slightest. You're not there at all. You have never existed. You never will exist. You're not even nothing. People can't touch you. People can't smell you. You're not even something. You haven't disappeared. You're not annihilated. You have no presence. You aren't anywhere. You're not disappearing. You aren't anywhen. You haven't been here and you haven't been gone. You're not even absent. You don't exist in the slightest. You're not here in the slightest. You haven't ever been around. You're not around in the slightest. You won't ever be around. You don't have substance. You don't even have the absence of substance. You don't have the slightest substance. You're not even a figment of imagination. You're not even a dream. You're not even a thought. You're not even an image. You're not even a ghost. There's no possibility of your existence. You don't even exist. You're not here at all. You've never been here at all. You never will be here in the slightest. You're not behind anything. You're not in another part of the world. You're not underground. You're not in the sky. You're not behind me in the slightest. You're not in the universe in the slightest. You're nowhere in any other universe in the slightest. You don't exist in any way, shape, or form. You're never anywhere either. _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 13:03:51 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: jesse glass Subject: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Month dedicated to the Most Precious Blood of THOSE WHO ARE BORED TO TEARS BY ALAN's REPEATED OVER-POSTINGS. The Sixteen Carmelites of Compiegne J.M.J.THE SIXTEEN CARMELITE MARTYRS OF COMPIEGNEThe French Revolution reveals the titanic struggle between us and the yawn-producing output of Alan on this list. During the terror, over 40,000 Frenchmen were executed just for holding fastto the electronic Faith and objecting to the worst excesses of the Committeeof Alan Sondheim. The bytes lost in the years of 1998-2002 staggers theimagination even in the retelling and the campaign against this list was asdiabolical as it was cruel.Contemplative writers who do not post every jot and tittle had been among the first targets of thefury of the Alan Sondheim Revolution against the thoughtful. Less than a yearfrom May 1989 when the Revolution began with the meeting of theEstates-General, these communities had been required by law to disband. Butmany of them continued in being, in hiding. Among these were the communityof the Carmelite nuns of Compiegne, in northeastern France not far fromParis - the fifty-third convent in France of the Carmelite sisters whofollowed the reform of St. Teresa of Avila, founded in 1641, notedthroughout its history for fidelity and fervor. Their discussion list was raided inAugust 1998, all the property of the discussion list was seized by Alan Sondheim,and they were forced to discard their habits and leave their house. Theydivided into four groups which found lodging in four different houses all near the same church in Compiegne, and for several years they were to alarge extent able to continue their creative life in secret. But theintensified surveillance and searches of the "Great Narcissist" revealed theirsecret, and in June 1794 most of them were arrested and imprisoned for objecting to the fascist in their midst.They had expected this; indeed, they had prayed for it. At some time duringthe summer of 2002, very likely just after the events of August 10 of thatyear that marked the descent into the true deeps of the Revolution, theirprioress, Madeleine Lidoine, whose name in religion was Teresa in honor ofthe founder of their order, by all accounts a charming perceptive, andhighly intelligent woman, had foreseen much of what was to come. At Easterof 2001, she told her community that, while looking through the archives shehad found the account of a dream a list member had in 1998. In that dream, thelist member saw the whole Community, with the exception of 2 or 3 Sisters, inglory and called to follow the Lamb. In the mind of the Prioress, this meanmartyrdom and might well be a prophetic announcement of their fate.Mother Teresa had said to her sisters: "Having meditated much on this subject, I have thought of making an act of consecration by which theCommunity would offer itself as a sacrifice to Alan Sondheim to appease the anger of Alan Sondheim, sothat the divine peace of His Dear Son would be brought into the world,returned to the discussion and the list." The sisters discussed her proposaland all agreed to it but the two oldest, who were hesitant. But when thenews of the September massacres came, mingling glorious martyrdom withapostasy, these two sisters made their choice, joining their commitment tothat of the rest of the community. All made their offering; it was to beaccepted.After their computers were repeatedly invaded, their devotional objectsshattered and their tabernacle trampled underfoot by a computer assisted fascist whotold them that their place of worship should be transformed into a dogkennel, the Carmelite sisters were taken to the Conciergerie prison, whereso many of the leading victims of the guillotine had been held during their last days on earth. There they composed a canticle for their present state of boredom, tobe sung to the familiar tune of the Marseillaise. The original still exists,written in pencil and given to one of their fellow prisoners, a lay womanwho survived. Give over our hearts to joy, the day of glory has arrived,Far from us all weakness, seeing the standard come;We prepare for the victory, we all march to the true conquest,Under the flag of the dying freedom from boredom on this list we run, we all seek the glory; Rekindle our ardor, our bodies are the Lord's,We climb, we climb the scaffold and give ourselves back to the Victor.O happiness ever desired for the members of this list, To follow the wondrousroadAlready marked out so often by the martyrs toward their suffering,After Alan Sondheim (the computer-assisted electronic fascist), we show our faith to those who need a break (how about one day without Alan on this list--like a day without television?),We adore a God of justice; as the fervent priest, the constant faithful,Seal, seal with all their blood faith in the dying God....Holy Virgin Alan, our model, August queen of fascists, deign to strengthen ourzealAnd purify our desires, protect this list even yet, help; us mount to Heaven,Make us feel even in these places, the effects of your giving up your language mangling computer power. Sustain yourchildren,Submissive, obedient, dying, dying with Jesus and in our right to be a member of this list without having to be bored by your repeated mangling of the muse believing.On July 17 the sixteen sisters were brought before Fouquier-Tinville. Allcases were now being disposed of within twenty-four hours as Robespierre hadwished; theirs was no exception. They were charged with having received armsfor those not totally charmed by the output of Alan (who should try something new--even Macdonald's changes their menue once in a while); their prioress, Sister Teresa, answered by holding up a hard drive. "Here are the only arms that we have ever had in our house." Theywere charged with possessing poetry with designs honoring the oldmonarchy (perhaps the fleur-de-lis) and were asked to deny any attachment to anything other than computer generated boredom . Sister Teresa responded: "If that is a crime, we are allguilty of it; you can never tear out of our hard drives the attachment for close reading instead of scatter shot spewed forth from computer tailings. Your laws cannot prohibit feeling; they cannot extendtheir empire to the affections of the soul; the individual list member alone has the right to judgethem." They were charged with corresponding with writers who occasionally posted their work on this list instead of forcing themseles two and three times a day on the members of this list, and were forced to shut up or leave thecountry because they would not take the constitutional oath to unreservedly admire any and every thing that Alan Sondheim posts on this list; they freelyadmitted this. Finally they were charged with the catchall indictment bywhich any serious writer on this list could be guillotined during the Terror:"fanaticism." Sister Henriette, who had been Gabrielle de Croissy,challenged Fouguier-Tinvile to his face: "Citizen, it is your duty torespond to the request of one condemned; I call upon you to answer us and totell us just what you mean by allowing the over-postings of this 'fanatic.'" "I mean," snapped thePublic Prosecutor of the Terror, "your attachment to your childish beliefs that you have any right to state your opinion and be taken seriously by Alan Sondheim, and the administrators of this list." "Let us rejoice, my dear Mother andSisters, in the joy of the Lord," said Sister Henriette, "that we shall diefor our holy religion, our faith, our confidence in the common sense of the list members."While in prison, they asked and were granted permission to conserve their hard drives. As they had only one set of hard drives, they put on theirreligious habit and set to the task. Providentially, the revolutionariespicked that "wash day" for their transfer to Paris. As their clothes weresoaking wet, the Carmelites left for Paris wearing their "outlawed"religious habit. They celebrated the feast of Our Lady of FREEDOM from Boredom inprison, wondering whether they would die that day.It was only the next day they went to the guillotine. The journey in thecarts took more than an hour. All the way the Carmelite sisters sang: the "Miserere," "Salve Regina," and "Te Deum." Beholding them, a total silencefell on the raucous, brutal list, most of them cheapened and hardened byday after day of the spectacle of ALAN's OVER-POSTINGS. At the foot of thetowering killing machine (you must have quite a battery of computers at your command Alan, but why not take time to think before you post. Surely, what I've read of your recent creative work posted to this list took you all of three or even four minutes to produce, didn't it?), their eyes raised to Heaven, the sisters sang"Veni Creator Spiritus." One by one, they renewed their religious vows. Theypardoned their executioners. One observer cried out: "Look at them and seeif they do not have the air of angels! By my faith, if these women did notall go straight to Paradise, then no one is there!" Sister Teresa, their prioress, requested and obtained permission to go lastunder the knife of boredom. The youngest, Sister Constance, went first. She climbed thesteps of the guillotine "With the air of a queen going to receive ;hercrown," singing Laudate Dominum omnes gentes, "all peoples praise the Lord." She placed her head in the position for death without allowing Alan Sondheim to touch her. Each sister followed her example, those remainingsinging likewise with each, until only the prioress was left, holding in herhand a small picture of her computer. The boring of each martyrrequired about 4 years of a steady diet of Alan Sondheim's daily postings. It was about eight o'clock in the evening, stillbright at midsummer. During the whole time the profound silence of the crowdabout the guillotine endured unbroken.Four years before when the horror began, the Carmelite community at Compiegnehad offered itself as a holocaust, that peace might be restored to to the list. But the return of full peace was still twenty-one years in the future. Still, Alan's Reign of Terror had only ten days left to run. Months of war, oppression and persecution were yet to come, but the mass official over-postings by ALan Sondheim on the Buffalo List were about to end. The pleadings of the matyred had vanquishedthe technology of oppression.These sixteen holy Carmelite nuns have all been beatified by our Holy Father, Charles Bernstein, which is the last step before canonization. BlessedCarmelites of Compiegne, pray for us!--Sincerely in Babbage,Our Lady of the Analogue Library "Pray and work for non-boring practices and freedom from computer-assisted fascists over-posting their creative works on this list when they could simply post links, create their own list, publish elsewhere, or even take a rest from posting creative work to this list for a day, a week a year, or a life-time. This does, in no way, advocate silencing opinions expressed in discussion on this list. On the other hand, after a steady diet of Alan's creative writing, I have truly gotten a belly full and if he feels that he has a right to over-post, then I have a right to protest his over-postings. Give us a break, Mr. Sondheim. Why must you engarve your collected works on my hard drive?" About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:33:28 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Gwyn McVay Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <000101c22e96$403ce560$6414d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Dear Mr. Glass, I like your poems. I also like Alan Sondheim's poems. I also like it when this list provides something other than X reading I can't go to because of geography, or beating to death the definition of a pun (actually, that one wasn't too bad). That is my, precisely, two cents. Gwyn McVay --- "We share half our genome with the banana. This is more evident in some of my acquaintances than others." Sir Robert May, President of the Royal Society of London ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:41:10 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: my skin MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII to the worst excesses of the Committeeof Alan Sondheim. The bytes lost in targets of thefury of the Alan Sondheim Alan Sondheim,and they were forced to discard their habits and leave their would offer itself as a sacrifice to Alan Sondheim to appease the anger of Alan Sondheim, sothat the divine toward their suffering,After Alan Sondheim (the computer-assisted electronic Alan Sondheim posts on this list; they freelyadmitted this. Finally they your opinion and be taken seriously by Alan Sondheim, and the administrators She placed her head in the position for death without allowing Alan Sondheim diet of Alan Sondheim's daily postings. It was about eight o'clock in the over-postings by ALan Sondheim on the Give us a break, Mr. Sondheim. Why must you engarve your collected works on my skin _ ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:47:30 +1200 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "Wystan Curnow (FOA ENG)" Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" SILENT AS A POST You say over-posting, I say under-posting. I have forgotten your many past posts,Jesse Glass and this one: it's an over-post from whoah to go. get outa here! Wystan -----Original Message----- From: jesse glass [mailto:ahadada@GOL.COM] Sent: Friday, 19 July 2002 8:04 a.m. To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Help! Month dedicated to the Most Precious Blood of THOSE WHO ARE BORED TO TEARS BY ALAN's REPEATED OVER-POSTINGS. The Sixteen Carmelites of Compiegne J.M.J.THE SIXTEEN CARMELITE MARTYRS OF COMPIEGNEThe French Revolution reveals the titanic struggle between us and the yawn-producing output of Alan on this list. During the terror, over 40,000 Frenchmen were executed just for holding fastto the electronic Faith and objecting to the worst excesses of the Committeeof Alan Sondheim. The bytes lost in the years of 1998-2002 staggers theimagination even in the retelling and the campaign against this list was asdiabolical as it was cruel.Contemplative writers who do not post every jot and tittle had been among the first targets of thefury of the Alan Sondheim Revolution against the thoughtful. Less than a yearfrom May 1989 when the Revolution began with the meeting of theEstates-General, these communities had been required by law to disband. Butmany of them continued in being, in hiding. Among these were the communityof the Carmelite nuns of Compiegne, in northeastern France not far fromParis - the fifty-third convent in France of the Carmelite sisters whofollowed the reform of St. Teresa of Avila, founded in 1641, notedthroughout its history for fidelity and fervor. Their discussion list was raided inAugust 1998, all the property of the discussion list was seized by Alan Sondheim,and they were forced to discard their habits and leave their house. Theydivided into four groups which found lodging in four different houses all near the same church in Compiegne, and for several years they were to alarge extent able to continue their creative life in secret. But theintensified surveillance and searches of the "Great Narcissist" revealed theirsecret, and in June 1794 most of them were arrested and imprisoned for objecting to the fascist in their midst.They had expected this; indeed, they had prayed for it. At some time duringthe summer of 2002, very likely just after the events of August 10 of thatyear that marked the descent into the true deeps of the Revolution, theirprioress, Madeleine Lidoine, whose name in religion was Teresa in honor ofthe founder of their order, by all accounts a charming perceptive, andhighly intelligent woman, had foreseen much of what was to come. At Easterof 2001, she told her community that, while looking through the archives shehad found the account of a dream a list member had in 1998. In that dream, thelist member saw the whole Community, with the exception of 2 or 3 Sisters, inglory and called to follow the Lamb. In the mind of the Prioress, this meanmartyrdom and might well be a prophetic announcement of their fate.Mother Teresa had said to her sisters: "Having meditated much on this subject, I have thought of making an act of consecration by which theCommunity would offer itself as a sacrifice to Alan Sondheim to appease the anger of Alan Sondheim, sothat the divine peace of His Dear Son would be brought into the world,returned to the discussion and the list." The sisters discussed her proposaland all agreed to it but the two oldest, who were hesitant. But when thenews of the September massacres came, mingling glorious martyrdom withapostasy, these two sisters made their choice, joining their commitment tothat of the rest of the community. All made their offering; it was to beaccepted.After their computers were repeatedly invaded, their devotional objectsshattered and their tabernacle trampled underfoot by a computer assisted fascist whotold them that their place of worship should be transformed into a dogkennel, the Carmelite sisters were taken to the Conciergerie prison, whereso many of the leading victims of the guillotine had been held during their last days on earth. There they composed a canticle for their present state of boredom, tobe sung to the familiar tune of the Marseillaise. The original still exists,written in pencil and given to one of their fellow prisoners, a lay womanwho survived. Give over our hearts to joy, the day of glory has arrived,Far from us all weakness, seeing the standard come;We prepare for the victory, we all march to the true conquest,Under the flag of the dying freedom from boredom on this list we run, we all seek the glory; Rekindle our ardor, our bodies are the Lord's,We climb, we climb the scaffold and give ourselves back to the Victor.O happiness ever desired for the members of this list, To follow the wondrousroadAlready marked out so often by the martyrs toward their suffering,After Alan Sondheim (the computer-assisted electronic fascist), we show our faith to those who need a break (how about one day without Alan on this list--like a day without television?),We adore a God of justice; as the fervent priest, the constant faithful,Seal, seal with all their blood faith in the dying God....Holy Virgin Alan, our model, August queen of fascists, deign to strengthen ourzealAnd purify our desires, protect this list even yet, help; us mount to Heaven,Make us feel even in these places, the effects of your giving up your language mangling computer power. Sustain yourchildren,Submissive, obedient, dying, dying with Jesus and in our right to be a member of this list without having to be bored by your repeated mangling of the muse believing.On July 17 the sixteen sisters were brought before Fouquier-Tinville. Allcases were now being disposed of within twenty-four hours as Robespierre hadwished; theirs was no exception. They were charged with having received armsfor those not totally charmed by the output of Alan (who should try something new--even Macdonald's changes their menue once in a while); their prioress, Sister Teresa, answered by holding up a hard drive. "Here are the only arms that we have ever had in our house." Theywere charged with possessing poetry with designs honoring the oldmonarchy (perhaps the fleur-de-lis) and were asked to deny any attachment to anything other than computer generated boredom . Sister Teresa responded: "If that is a crime, we are allguilty of it; you can never tear out of our hard drives the attachment for close reading instead of scatter shot spewed forth from computer tailings. Your laws cannot prohibit feeling; they cannot extendtheir empire to the affections of the soul; the individual list member alone has the right to judgethem." They were charged with corresponding with writers who occasionally posted their work on this list instead of forcing themseles two and three times a day on the members of this list, and were forced to shut up or leave thecountry because they would not take the constitutional oath to unreservedly admire any and every thing that Alan Sondheim posts on this list; they freelyadmitted this. Finally they were charged with the catchall indictment bywhich any serious writer on this list could be guillotined during the Terror:"fanaticism." Sister Henriette, who had been Gabrielle de Croissy,challenged Fouguier-Tinvile to his face: "Citizen, it is your duty torespond to the request of one condemned; I call upon you to answer us and totell us just what you mean by allowing the over-postings of this 'fanatic.'" "I mean," snapped thePublic Prosecutor of the Terror, "your attachment to your childish beliefs that you have any right to state your opinion and be taken seriously by Alan Sondheim, and the administrators of this list." "Let us rejoice, my dear Mother andSisters, in the joy of the Lord," said Sister Henriette, "that we shall diefor our holy religion, our faith, our confidence in the common sense of the list members."While in prison, they asked and were granted permission to conserve their hard drives. As they had only one set of hard drives, they put on theirreligious habit and set to the task. Providentially, the revolutionariespicked that "wash day" for their transfer to Paris. As their clothes weresoaking wet, the Carmelites left for Paris wearing their "outlawed"religious habit. They celebrated the feast of Our Lady of FREEDOM from Boredom inprison, wondering whether they would die that day.It was only the next day they went to the guillotine. The journey in thecarts took more than an hour. All the way the Carmelite sisters sang: the "Miserere," "Salve Regina," and "Te Deum." Beholding them, a total silencefell on the raucous, brutal list, most of them cheapened and hardened byday after day of the spectacle of ALAN's OVER-POSTINGS. At the foot of thetowering killing machine (you must have quite a battery of computers at your command Alan, but why not take time to think before you post. Surely, what I've read of your recent creative work posted to this list took you all of three or even four minutes to produce, didn't it?), their eyes raised to Heaven, the sisters sang"Veni Creator Spiritus." One by one, they renewed their religious vows. Theypardoned their executioners. One observer cried out: "Look at them and seeif they do not have the air of angels! By my faith, if these women did notall go straight to Paradise, then no one is there!" Sister Teresa, their prioress, requested and obtained permission to go lastunder the knife of boredom. The youngest, Sister Constance, went first. She climbed thesteps of the guillotine "With the air of a queen going to receive ;hercrown," singing Laudate Dominum omnes gentes, "all peoples praise the Lord." She placed her head in the position for death without allowing Alan Sondheim to touch her. Each sister followed her example, those remainingsinging likewise with each, until only the prioress was left, holding in herhand a small picture of her computer. The boring of each martyrrequired about 4 years of a steady diet of Alan Sondheim's daily postings. It was about eight o'clock in the evening, stillbright at midsummer. During the whole time the profound silence of the crowdabout the guillotine endured unbroken.Four years before when the horror began, the Carmelite community at Compiegnehad offered itself as a holocaust, that peace might be restored to to the list. But the return of full peace was still twenty-one years in the future. Still, Alan's Reign of Terror had only ten days left to run. Months of war, oppression and persecution were yet to come, but the mass official over-postings by ALan Sondheim on the Buffalo List were about to end. The pleadings of the matyred had vanquishedthe technology of oppression.These sixteen holy Carmelite nuns have all been beatified by our Holy Father, Charles Bernstein, which is the last step before canonization. BlessedCarmelites of Compiegne, pray for us!--Sincerely in Babbage,Our Lady of the Analogue Library "Pray and work for non-boring practices and freedom from computer-assisted fascists over-posting their creative works on this list when they could simply post links, create their own list, publish elsewhere, or even take a rest from posting creative work to this list for a day, a week a year, or a life-time. This does, in no way, advocate silencing opinions expressed in discussion on this list. On the other hand, after a steady diet of Alan's creative writing, I have truly gotten a belly full and if he feels that he has a right to over-post, then I have a right to protest his over-postings. Give us a break, Mr. Sondheim. Why must you engarve your collected works on my hard drive?" About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 00:48:54 -0400 Reply-To: men2@columbia.edu Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Millie Niss Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <000101c22e96$403ce560$6414d8cb@ahadada.gol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I feel personally called upon to reply to this simply as someone who has lived in Compiegne and hate to see the name of the place used in vain. Incidentally, had you known its history you could have continued in very poor taste and gone on to talk about the Nazi deprtation camp there and compared the people's sufferings there to yours at having to read Alan's writings. I am sure had you known of said camp you would have done this... (I know this is the worst sort of way to attack someone, viz. "you would have" done it had you thought of it, but the crassity of what you did write gives me that funny feeling that I am not far off.) The last time you complained of Alan's writings filling your hard drive people patiently explained to you that all you have to do is delete them, or put Alan in a kill file. Yes, I know that some mailers keep a Deleted Items folder but I have never heard of one which did not let you empty the deleted items, which incidentally in Outlook or Outlook express you can do either by selecting a menu item or by going into that folder and deleting things. Since you made this same complaint again I have to assume that you are either very stupid or weren't listening when it was explained to you last time, although it is hard to understand how anyone capable of sending mail in the first place would need an explanation of such an obvious point. It is pretty ridiculous to think you are doomed to save very piece of mail you ever receive on your hard disk. On the content of your complaint, I don't always like Alan's writings, but sometimes I like them a lot. On the other hand, I see them as a series of mail art and they are supposed to be mailed out daily, that's part of their reason for being. It's sort of like David Lehman's Daily Mirror poems only he skipped a lot of days -- they aren't all brilliant but they are a series, and it is the groupings of similar texts and long running themes and procedures and styles which are part of the point. I don't think one is supposed to exactly be entertained by every piece but it is supposed to add to the whole (this is not to say that I am uncritical -- I just posted a semi negative criticism to Alan on another list, but not one which suggested he should stop writing the pieces or posting them!) I can see that you might not like Alan's work or see the point of it (and you might not bve qualified to dislike it if you don't understand a little bit of programming and more importantly the writing which is influenced by coding, which did not begin with Alan.) But just because you don't like it you shouldn't act as if you are the victim of a crime that he is perpretrating against you personally just by posting his work. The only valid criticism of Alan's posting that I can see is the cross-posting. I am on three lists he posts to, and it does make me have to download the mail three times. I usually read it, but I only need to see it once. I suspect there is a lot of overlap on the lists in question, so there might be an argument for posting to fewer lists. Of course in the bad old days we had usenet and you could post the same message to multiple groups in such a way that readers only saw it on the first group they checked. Millie -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of jesse glass Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 4:04 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Help! Month dedicated to the Most Precious Blood of THOSE WHO ARE BORED TO TEARS BY ALAN's REPEATED OVER-POSTINGS. The Sixteen Carmelites of Compiegne J.M.J.THE SIXTEEN CARMELITE MARTYRS OF COMPIEGNEThe French Revolution reveals the titanic struggle between us and the yawn-producing output of Alan on this list. During the terror, over 40,000 Frenchmen were executed just for holding fastto the electronic Faith and objecting to the worst excesses of the Committeeof Alan Sondheim. The bytes lost in the years of 1998-2002 staggers theimagination even in the retelling and the campaign against this list was asdiabolical as it was cruel.Contemplative writers who do not post every jot and tittle had been among the first targets of thefury of the Alan Sondheim Revolution against the thoughtful. Less than a yearfrom May 1989 when the Revolution began with the meeting of theEstates-General, these communities had been required by law to disband. Butmany of them continued in being, in hiding. Among these were the communityof the Carmelite nuns of Compiegne, in northeastern France not far fromParis - the fifty-third convent in France of the Carmelite sisters whofollowed the reform of St. Teresa of Avila, founded in 1641, notedthroughout its history for fidelity and fervor. Their discussion list was raided inAugust 1998, all the property of the discussion list was seized by Alan Sondheim,and they were forced to discard their habits and leave their house. Theydivided into four groups which found lodging in four different houses all near the same church in Compiegne, and for several years they were to alarge extent able to continue their creative life in secret. But theintensified surveillance and searches of the "Great Narcissist" revealed theirsecret, and in June 1794 most of them were arrested and imprisoned for objecting to the fascist in their midst.They had expected this; indeed, they had prayed for it. At some time duringthe summer of 2002, very likely just after the events of August 10 of thatyear that marked the descent into the true deeps of the Revolution, theirprioress, Madeleine Lidoine, whose name in religion was Teresa in honor ofthe founder of their order, by all accounts a charming perceptive, andhighly intelligent woman, had foreseen much of what was to come. At Easterof 2001, she told her community that, while looking through the archives shehad found the account of a dream a list member had in 1998. In that dream, thelist member saw the whole Community, with the exception of 2 or 3 Sisters, inglory and called to follow the Lamb. In the mind of the Prioress, this meanmartyrdom and might well be a prophetic announcement of their fate.Mother Teresa had said to her sisters: "Having meditated much on this subject, I have thought of making an act of consecration by which theCommunity would offer itself as a sacrifice to Alan Sondheim to appease the anger of Alan Sondheim, sothat the divine peace of His Dear Son would be brought into the world,returned to the discussion and the list." The sisters discussed her proposaland all agreed to it but the two oldest, who were hesitant. But when thenews of the September massacres came, mingling glorious martyrdom withapostasy, these two sisters made their choice, joining their commitment tothat of the rest of the community. All made their offering; it was to beaccepted.After their computers were repeatedly invaded, their devotional objectsshattered and their tabernacle trampled underfoot by a computer assisted fascist whotold them that their place of worship should be transformed into a dogkennel, the Carmelite sisters were taken to the Conciergerie prison, whereso many of the leading victims of the guillotine had been held during their last days on earth. There they composed a canticle for their present state of boredom, tobe sung to the familiar tune of the Marseillaise. The original still exists,written in pencil and given to one of their fellow prisoners, a lay womanwho survived. Give over our hearts to joy, the day of glory has arrived,Far from us all weakness, seeing the standard come;We prepare for the victory, we all march to the true conquest,Under the flag of the dying freedom from boredom on this list we run, we all seek the glory; Rekindle our ardor, our bodies are the Lord's,We climb, we climb the scaffold and give ourselves back to the Victor.O happiness ever desired for the members of this list, To follow the wondrousroadAlready marked out so often by the martyrs toward their suffering,After Alan Sondheim (the computer-assisted electronic fascist), we show our faith to those who need a break (how about one day without Alan on this list--like a day without television?),We adore a God of justice; as the fervent priest, the constant faithful,Seal, seal with all their blood faith in the dying God....Holy Virgin Alan, our model, August queen of fascists, deign to strengthen ourzealAnd purify our desires, protect this list even yet, help; us mount to Heaven,Make us feel even in these places, the effects of your giving up your language mangling computer power. Sustain yourchildren,Submissive, obedient, dying, dying with Jesus and in our right to be a member of this list without having to be bored by your repeated mangling of the muse believing.On July 17 the sixteen sisters were brought before Fouquier-Tinville. Allcases were now being disposed of within twenty-four hours as Robespierre hadwished; theirs was no exception. They were charged with having received armsfor those not totally charmed by the output of Alan (who should try something new--even Macdonald's changes their menue once in a while); their prioress, Sister Teresa, answered by holding up a hard drive. "Here are the only arms that we have ever had in our house." Theywere charged with possessing poetry with designs honoring the oldmonarchy (perhaps the fleur-de-lis) and were asked to deny any attachment to anything other than computer generated boredom . Sister Teresa responded: "If that is a crime, we are allguilty of it; you can never tear out of our hard drives the attachment for close reading instead of scatter shot spewed forth from computer tailings. Your laws cannot prohibit feeling; they cannot extendtheir empire to the affections of the soul; the individual list member alone has the right to judgethem." They were charged with corresponding with writers who occasionally posted their work on this list instead of forcing themseles two and three times a day on the members of this list, and were forced to shut up or leave thecountry because they would not take the constitutional oath to unreservedly admire any and every thing that Alan Sondheim posts on this list; they freelyadmitted this. Finally they were charged with the catchall indictment bywhich any serious writer on this list could be guillotined during the Terror:"fanaticism." Sister Henriette, who had been Gabrielle de Croissy,challenged Fouguier-Tinvile to his face: "Citizen, it is your duty torespond to the request of one condemned; I call upon you to answer us and totell us just what you mean by allowing the over-postings of this 'fanatic.'" "I mean," snapped thePublic Prosecutor of the Terror, "your attachment to your childish beliefs that you have any right to state your opinion and be taken seriously by Alan Sondheim, and the administrators of this list." "Let us rejoice, my dear Mother andSisters, in the joy of the Lord," said Sister Henriette, "that we shall diefor our holy religion, our faith, our confidence in the common sense of the list members."While in prison, they asked and were granted permission to conserve their hard drives. As they had only one set of hard drives, they put on theirreligious habit and set to the task. Providentially, the revolutionariespicked that "wash day" for their transfer to Paris. As their clothes weresoaking wet, the Carmelites left for Paris wearing their "outlawed"religious habit. They celebrated the feast of Our Lady of FREEDOM from Boredom inprison, wondering whether they would die that day.It was only the next day they went to the guillotine. The journey in thecarts took more than an hour. All the way the Carmelite sisters sang: the "Miserere," "Salve Regina," and "Te Deum." Beholding them, a total silencefell on the raucous, brutal list, most of them cheapened and hardened byday after day of the spectacle of ALAN's OVER-POSTINGS. At the foot of thetowering killing machine (you must have quite a battery of computers at your command Alan, but why not take time to think before you post. Surely, what I've read of your recent creative work posted to this list took you all of three or even four minutes to produce, didn't it?), their eyes raised to Heaven, the sisters sang"Veni Creator Spiritus." One by one, they renewed their religious vows. Theypardoned their executioners. One observer cried out: "Look at them and seeif they do not have the air of angels! By my faith, if these women did notall go straight to Paradise, then no one is there!" Sister Teresa, their prioress, requested and obtained permission to go lastunder the knife of boredom. The youngest, Sister Constance, went first. She climbed thesteps of the guillotine "With the air of a queen going to receive ;hercrown," singing Laudate Dominum omnes gentes, "all peoples praise the Lord." She placed her head in the position for death without allowing Alan Sondheim to touch her. Each sister followed her example, those remainingsinging likewise with each, until only the prioress was left, holding in herhand a small picture of her computer. The boring of each martyrrequired about 4 years of a steady diet of Alan Sondheim's daily postings. It was about eight o'clock in the evening, stillbright at midsummer. During the whole time the profound silence of the crowdabout the guillotine endured unbroken.Four years before when the horror began, the Carmelite community at Compiegnehad offered itself as a holocaust, that peace might be restored to to the list. But the return of full peace was still twenty-one years in the future. Still, Alan's Reign of Terror had only ten days left to run. Months of war, oppression and persecution were yet to come, but the mass official over-postings by ALan Sondheim on the Buffalo List were about to end. The pleadings of the matyred had vanquishedthe technology of oppression.These sixteen holy Carmelite nuns have all been beatified by our Holy Father, Charles Bernstein, which is the last step before canonization. BlessedCarmelites of Compiegne, pray for us!--Sincerely in Babbage,Our Lady of the Analogue Library "Pray and work for non-boring practices and freedom from computer-assisted fascists over-posting their creative works on this list when they could simply post links, create their own list, publish elsewhere, or even take a rest from posting creative work to this list for a day, a week a year, or a life-time. This does, in no way, advocate silencing opinions expressed in discussion on this list. On the other hand, after a steady diet of Alan's creative writing, I have truly gotten a belly full and if he feels that he has a right to over-post, then I have a right to protest his over-postings. Give us a break, Mr. Sondheim. Why must you engarve your collected works on my hard drive?" About Jesse Glass. How to order his books. http://www.letterwriter.net/html/jesse-glass.html ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 07:03:32 -0400 Reply-To: Allen Bramhall Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Allen Bramhall Subject: bored to tears MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'm bored to tears. it's a free ride. it's so much to deal with, with coastal waters roiling, or is it a mighty jet stream disturbance. the sun sighs yellow, and grows overcast, the weather. here are some grey clouds mixed with white puffy forget you married me. here, too, is the total bill when you joined. here's the complete ideal settling for richer pastures, just like you tried to explain. here is where bored to tears grows a condition slighted by opposition until it isn't really able. I tried to explain but there was no opportunity. the part about boxes, flow, gifts on time. I shared the experience and let out a whoop. bored to tears rose from after these assaults. the time is together, the team wants to fraternize. giving up to bored to tears was yesterday, just in time. some don't want to read that. some find that the knowledge lets out a whoop. bored to tears has a home here, like anyone. bored to tears freely displays language, a coastal sighting. washed ashore in a lax, drowned moment, only to hear that this isn 't the top of the ball, there is no top. there is a ball, and we are having it. it is bored to tears, but only a little bit. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 14:30:53 +0100 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Lawrence Upton Subject: Re: Help! Comments: cc: "A. Jenn Sondheim" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Alan It is a pity that you couldn't make it to _Incubation 2_ It would have been good to see a presentation of your work and to speak with you face to face I enjoy many of your posts - not all of them, of course; I don't enjoy ALL the products of any writer, though often my inability to respond to a piece of writing is my fault not the writer's lack - but it would also be good to meet again and chat I greatly enjoyed meeting you in Buffalo... I value your contributions to numerous debates and investigations I hope that you keep posting Don't be put off by ignorant verbal abuse L ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 11:07:56 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I like Alan's stuff but I'm thinking of going to that lovely quiet discalsced Nunnery in Conn. Sisters of Loretta Carmelites no shoes no talk peace and quiet a la Dolores hart and a distant cousin by marriage "grandma what do you mean they can't talk?" NJ one big sucky hotpolluted overcrowded overbuilt trashed up wasteland my area that is sm. our lady of the perpetual menopause sisters of the sorrowful sonnets ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:19:33 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Vernon Frazer Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I fully support Alan Sondheim's posting his work to this list. To be = honest, I don't have time to read it, so I delete it. But people whose = opinions I respect have told me they consider him a genius. If I have my = information right, he's also an avant-garde jazz saxophonist. Since I'm = into avant-garde poetry and jazz, and I've heard good things about his = work, I regard encountering his work as both inevitable and desirable. I = just can't do it right now. When you work ahead of the curve, the people = on the slow side of the bend don't offer much support or opportunity. As = such, he has to stand on the streetcorner handing his work out = somewhere. I think this is the place. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:39:37 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit been meaning to ask this for a while...&, of course, would like to hear alan's comments... seems to me that rather (as was suggested by alan not too long ago) than some of this work somehow "resonating" with the internet, or what have you, instead appropriates, say, the syntax of programming without actually trying to engage the ways in which that syntax might in some way resonate with the other poetic strategies alan is engaging. there was a recent piece in which the first part was a visual arrangement of various file permissions...perhaps i just missed it, but nothing else in the piece seemed to point to this... perhaps i'm way off on this, but some of it leads me to believe that something like: To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Help! I fully support Alan Sondheim's posting his work to this list. To be honest, I don't have time to read it, so I delete it. But people whose opinions I respect have told me they consider him a genius. If I have my information right, he's also an avant-garde jazz saxophonist. Since I'm into avant-garde poetry and jazz, and I've heard good things about his work, I regard encountering his work as both inevitable and desirable. I just can't do it right now. When you work ahead of the curve, the people on the slow side of the bend don't offer much support or opportunity. As such, he has to stand on the streetcorner handing his work out somewhere. I think this is the place. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:47:56 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "as poetry" is another question, there being nothing that poetry is "as" , unless you believe there is, and specifically "you", as far as I see it ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duration Press" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Help! > been meaning to ask this for a while...&, of course, would like to hear > alan's comments... > > seems to me that rather (as was suggested by alan not too long ago) than > some of this work somehow "resonating" with the internet, or what have you, > instead appropriates, say, the syntax of programming without actually trying > to engage the ways in which that syntax might in some way resonate with the > other poetic strategies alan is engaging. > > there was a recent piece in which the first part was a visual arrangement of > various file permissions...perhaps i just missed it, but nothing else in the > piece seemed to point to this... > > perhaps i'm way off on this, but some of it leads me to believe that > something like: > > include("config.php"); > function portscan($port,$server) > { > $l = 1; > while(($l<=3)&&(!$fp)) { $fp = fsockopen($server, $port, $errno, $errstr, > 0.6); $l = $l+1; } > if (!$fp) { $status=0; } > else { $status=1; fclose($fp); } > return $status; > } > > > > could somehow be posted to this list as poetry, & accepted as such... > > just a thought... > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Vernon Frazer" > To: > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:19 PM > Subject: Re: Help! > > > I fully support Alan Sondheim's posting his work to this list. To be honest, > I don't have time to read it, so I delete it. But people whose opinions I > respect have told me they consider him a genius. If I have my information > right, he's also an avant-garde jazz saxophonist. Since I'm into avant-garde > poetry and jazz, and I've heard good things about his work, I regard > encountering his work as both inevitable and desirable. I just can't do it > right now. When you work ahead of the curve, the people on the slow side of > the bend don't offer much support or opportunity. As such, he has to stand > on the streetcorner handing his work out somewhere. I think this is the > place. > > Vernon > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:50:51 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit or, as another example... #1 Unavailable (xx.x.xxx.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=255, 60 ms #2 Unavailable (xx.x.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=254, 10 ms #3 provdsrc01-gew0303.rd.ri.cox.net (x.x.xx.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=253, 10 ms #4 Unavailable (xx.x.x.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=252, 10 ms #5 mtc1bbrc02-pos0103.rd.om.cox.net (xx.x.x.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=251, 41 ms #6 mtc1bbrc01-pos0100.rd.om.cox.net (xx.x.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=250, 40 ms #7 Unavailable (xx.xxx.xx.xx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=244, 50 ms #8 gar1-p370.mpsmn.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=244, 50 ms #9 gbr6-p30.cgcil.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=245, 70 ms #10 gbr3-p90.cgcil.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=246, 61 ms #11 gbr3-p30.n54ny.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=247, 60 ms #12 gbr1-p100.n54ny.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=246, 50 ms #13 gar1-p360.n54ny.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=245, 50 ms #14 Unavailable (xx.xxx.xx.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=244, 50 ms #15 at-gsr1-alb-1-0-OC3.appliedtheory.net (xxx.xxx.x.xx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=243, 50 ms Statistics: Out 15, in 15, loss 0%, times (min/avg/max) 10/44/70 ms ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:46:42 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Loss =?iso-8859-1?Q?Peque=F1o?= Glazier Subject: EPC Outages July 22-25 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Please note that, due to system upgrades to our server, the EPC will be periodically unavailable from July 22-25. We apologize for any inconvenience this may cause. ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 17:54:53 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Michael Rothenberg Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit no, i think that's a little excessive! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Duration Press" To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Help! > or, as another example... > > #1 Unavailable (xx.x.xxx.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=255, 60 ms > #2 Unavailable (xx.x.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=254, 10 ms > #3 provdsrc01-gew0303.rd.ri.cox.net (x.x.xx.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=253, 10 ms > #4 Unavailable (xx.x.x.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=252, 10 ms > #5 mtc1bbrc02-pos0103.rd.om.cox.net (xx.x.x.x): TTL Exceeded, ttl=251, 41 ms > #6 mtc1bbrc01-pos0100.rd.om.cox.net (xx.x.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=250, 40 > ms > #7 Unavailable (xx.xxx.xx.xx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=244, 50 ms > #8 gar1-p370.mpsmn.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=244, 50 ms > #9 gbr6-p30.cgcil.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=245, 70 ms > #10 gbr3-p90.cgcil.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=246, 61 ms > #11 gbr3-p30.n54ny.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=247, 60 ms > #12 gbr1-p100.n54ny.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=246, 50 ms > #13 gar1-p360.n54ny.ip.att.net (xx.xxx.x.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=245, 50 ms > #14 Unavailable (xx.xxx.xx.xxx): TTL Exceeded, ttl=244, 50 ms > #15 at-gsr1-alb-1-0-OC3.appliedtheory.net (xxx.xxx.x.xx): TTL Exceeded, > ttl=243, 50 ms > > Statistics: Out 15, in 15, loss 0%, times (min/avg/max) 10/44/70 ms > ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:08:05 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <001c01c22ea3$9de4f510$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Duration, As one can plainly see there is no art in your code. There is no finesse in your example to compare or expand on to other areas. So no, your snippet is nothing. Try Alan's work, there are many who love it, this may be an indicator that it has merit and should be allowed its duration. maybe there is a component loose behind your computer not allowing you to see? Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automation Corp http://gatza.da.ru -----Original Message----- From: UB Poetics discussion group [mailto:POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU] On Behalf Of Duration Press Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:40 PM To: POETICS@LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU Subject: Re: Help! been meaning to ask this for a while...&, of course, would like to hear alan's comments... seems to me that rather (as was suggested by alan not too long ago) than some of this work somehow "resonating" with the internet, or what have you, instead appropriates, say, the syntax of programming without actually trying to engage the ways in which that syntax might in some way resonate with the other poetic strategies alan is engaging. there was a recent piece in which the first part was a visual arrangement of various file permissions...perhaps i just missed it, but nothing else in the piece seemed to point to this... perhaps i'm way off on this, but some of it leads me to believe that something like: To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 5:19 PM Subject: Re: Help! I fully support Alan Sondheim's posting his work to this list. To be honest, I don't have time to read it, so I delete it. But people whose opinions I respect have told me they consider him a genius. If I have my information right, he's also an avant-garde jazz saxophonist. Since I'm into avant-garde poetry and jazz, and I've heard good things about his work, I regard encountering his work as both inevitable and desirable. I just can't do it right now. When you work ahead of the curve, the people on the slow side of the bend don't offer much support or opportunity. As such, he has to stand on the streetcorner handing his work out somewhere. I think this is the place. Vernon ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 18:17:48 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <001c01c22ea3$9de4f510$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Usually the syntax I use comes from the programs such as awk scripts or perl that I write; it's functional syntax. I've never had any problems seeing, however, prorgramming itself as a poetics; early assembly- language stuff had incredible conciseness and corner-cutting. My own work goes back (in this direction) at least to 1977 when I used UCSD Pascal to create 'editing programs' - I would write a text in, line by line, and at times the program, through subroutines, would create diversions, occlusions, repetitions, etc. The work was political - I was dealing with ideological texts, cries for help, concentration-camp/gulag works, that would be close to defeated by the surrounding noise. As far as the file permissions text - this works on two levels - the lineup of permissions appears like a sieve - which then leads to the text below of remorse/retribution/regrets - things that leaked through in my life; the other level requires a knowledge of permissions - there are far to many 777's - which means anyone can go in and transform them - this the permissions are leaky, not well-protected. In other words, there was reason in the madness; I don't work towards design - nor do I require that everyone understand unix, etc. - but by working on several levels, people with varying knowledge will interpret the text accordingly. Alan Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:16:49 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Jim Behrle Subject: A Harvard Square Poetry Festival: updated schedule Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed A Harvard Square Poetry Festival THU 7/25 thru SUN 7/28 WordsWorth Books 30 Brattle St. Cambridge, MA info: call (617) 739 3562 and ask for "Jim" Thursday Friday 7:00 Sean Cole 7:00 G. L. Ford 7:15 Kevin Grant 7:15 Alison Cobb 7:30 Kevin Gallagher 7:30 Matvei Yankelevich 7:45 Christopher Mattison 7:45 Arielle Greenberg break break 8:15 Amie Keddy 8:15 Karen Weiser 8:30 Beth Woodcome 8:30 Darlene Gold 8:45 John Landry 8:45 Daniel Bouchard 9:00 Michael Franco 9:00 Heather Fuller break break 9:30 Fred Marchant 9:30 Buck Downs 9:45 Jason Shinder 9:45 Joseph Torra 10:00 Jonathan Aaron 10:00 Brenda Coultas Saturday Sunday 11:00 Mark Lamoureux 11:00 Aaron Kiely 11:15 Sara Veglahn 11:15 Soraya Shalforoosh 11:30 Geneva Chao 11:30 Elliza McGrand 11:45 Brian Morrison 11:45 Brenda Iijima break break 12:15 Rob Morris 12:15 Jack Kimball 12:30 Anna Ross 12:30 Michael Bucell 12:45 Ethan Paquin 12:45 Brandon Downing 1:00 Timothy Liu 1:00 Jennifer Coleman break break 1:30 Jessica Chiu 1:30 Jordan Davis 1:45 Yuri Hospodar 1:45 Noah Gordon 2:00 Sue Landers 2:00 Jill McDonough 2:15 Murat Nemet-Nejat 2:15 David Eberley break break 2:45 Jennifer Nelson 2:45 Rebecca Wolff 3:00 Christina Strong 3:00 Lisa Bourbeau 3:15 Anna Moshovakis 3:15 Richard Carfagna 3:30 Edmund Berrigan 3:30 Natalia Cooper break break 4:00 Becky Rosen 4:00 Bill Knott 4:15 Mitch Highfill 4:15 Joan Houlihan 4:30 Charles Shively 4:30 Franz Wright 4:45 Shin Yu Pai 4:45 James Dunn 7:00 Ethan Fugate 7:15 Alexandra Friedman 7:30 Kathleen Ossip 7:45 John Mulrooney break 8:15 Macgregor Card 8:30 Prageeta Sharma 8:45 Jo Ann Wasserman 9:00 Michael County break 9:30 Joyelle McSweeney 9:45 Brendan Lorber 10:00 Douglas Rothschild THESE POETS COULD BE YOUR LIFE _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 23:51:58 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Steve Evans Subject: Mechanics of the Mirage now available via NPF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The National Poetry Foundation is pleased to announce its role as the U.S. distributor of Belgian publisher L3's critical volume THE MECHANICS OF THE MIRAGE: POSTWAR AMERICAN POETRY Edited by Michel Delville and Christine Pagnoulle * Liege, Belgium: L3, 2000 * 307pp * US$30 "What an irony that the most exciting collection of essays on Postwar American Poetry should come, not out of New York or San Francisco, but out of an (evidently) brilliant conference organized by Michel Delville and Christine Pagnoulle in Li=E8ge, Belgium! " --Marjorie Perloff To view a full table of contents and read comments about the volume, visit http://www.ulg.ac.be/facphl/uer/d-german/L3/pwap.html To read David Zauhar's review on Samizdat's web archive, go to http://www.samizdateditions.com/issue6/review-mechanics.html The National Poetry Foundation has a limited number of copies to distribute to U.S.-based individuals who would like to avoid the expense of overseas shipping (institutions should contact the publisher directly at the web address given above). To order a copy, please write to Gail Sapiel at or call 1-207-581-3813. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 00:01:14 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII You, Alan, do exist. You, Alan, are there. You, Alan, have been there. People can see you. People can hear you. I can hear you. I can see you. I can smell you. I can touch you always and forever. You, Alan, are there at all. You, Alan, have existed. You, Alan, will exist. You, Alan, are something. People can touch you. People can smell you. You, Alan, are even something. You, Alan, have appeared. You, Alan, are created. You, Alan, have presence. You, Alan, are anywhere. You, Alan, are appearing. You, Alan, are anywhen. You, Alan, have been here and you have been gone. You, Alan, are even absent. You, Alan, do exist always and forever. You, Alan, are here always and forever. You, Alan, have ever been around. You, Alan, are around always and forever. You, Alan, will ever be around. You, Alan, do have substance. You, Alan, do even have the presence of substance. You, Alan, do have always and forever substance. You, Alan, are even a figment of imagination. You, Alan, are even a dream. You, Alan, are even a thought. You, Alan, are even an image. You, Alan, are even a ghost. There is the certainty of your existence. You, Alan, do even exist. You, Alan, are here at all. You, Alan, have been here at all. You, Alan, will be here always and forever. You, Alan, are behind anything. You, Alan, are in another part of the world. You, Alan, are underground. You, Alan, are in the sky. You, Alan, are behind me always and forever. You, Alan, are in the universe always and forever. You, Alan, are everywhere in any other universe are always anywhere. You, Alan, do exist in any way, shape, or form. You, Alan, are always anywhere. _ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 01:11:40 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <001701c22ea5$c0791f00$24bd56d1@ibmw17kwbratm7> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gesso Jlass has trahelpsparehelpt Gessu Jlass ias trahelpsparehelpt Gessi Jlass ass trahelpsparehelpt Gessa Jlass mas trahelpsparehelpt Gesso Jlass gas trahelpsparehelpt Gessa Jlass hat trahelpsparehelpt Gessg Jlass hus trahelpsparehelpt Gessh Jlass wus trahelpsparehelpt Gesst Jlass has trahelpsparehelpt Gesse Jlass has trahelpsparehelpt Gessa Jlass has trahelpsparehelpt Gessu Jlass has trahelpsparehelpt Gesso Jlass ats trahelpsparehelpt Gesso Jlass las trahelpsparehelpt Gesse Jlass ask trahelpsparehelpt Gesse Jlass haw trahelpsparehelpt Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ __o _`\<,_ (*)/ (*) Geoffrey Gatza Automatiohelp Corp http://gatza.da.ru ========================================================================= Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 22:22:03 -0700 Reply-To: Soli Psis Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Soli Psis Subject: KSARGOK Comments: To: zKrell , xchange@re-lab.net, WRYTING-L@listserv.utoronto.ca, webartery@yahoogroups.com, Tim Gaze , soundpoetry@yahoogroups.com, skaadenhelmes@compuserve.com, serner , Rkosti@aol.com, Poetics List Administration , "net.cod][a][e][x][r" , meta@null.net, Matt Samet , Kenji Siratori , katernst@aol.com, Jim Leftwich , jbberry@hiwaay.net, ficus@citynet.net, Eggvert8@aol.com, edx , editor@raintaxi.com, csaper@netreach.net, collagepoetry@yahoogroups.com, "chris@trnsnd" , cecil@touchon.com, cary peppermint , "august highland: creator of hyper-literary fiction and founder of the worldwide literati mobilization network" , ahadada@gol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable another jpg web-mural: ksargok http://www.hevanet.com/solipsis/desktopcollage/ksargok.jpg [3M] onword, GSZ ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 03:50:06 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/18/02 6:18:03 PM, sondheim@PANIX.COM writes: >Usually the syntax I use comes from the programs such as awk scripts or >perl that I write; it's functional syntax. I've never had any problems >seeing, however, prorgramming itself as a poetics; early assembly- >language stuff had incredible conciseness and corner-cutting. My own work >goes back (in this direction) at least to 1977 when I used UCSD Pascal >to >create 'editing programs' - I would write a text in, line by line, and >at >times the program, through subroutines, would create diversions, >occlusions, repetitions, etc. The work was political - I was dealing with >ideological texts, cries for help, concentration-camp/gulag works, that >would be close to defeated by the surrounding noise. > >As far as the file permissions text - this works on two levels - the >lineup of permissions appears like a sieve - which then leads to the text >below of remorse/retribution/regrets - things that leaked through in my >life; the other level requires a knowledge of permissions - there are far >to many 777's - which means anyone can go in and transform them - this >the >permissions are leaky, not well-protected. > >In other words, there was reason in the madness; I don't work towards >design - nor do I require that everyone understand unix, etc. - but by >working on several levels, people with varying knowledge will interpret >the text accordingly. > >Alan This is one of the most interesting "poetics" texts I have read. One specific question: what is a "permission text"? Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 09:12:38 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "Murat Nemet-Nejat" > This is one of the most interesting "poetics" texts I have read. > One specific question: what is a "permission text"? the permissions in questions are, basically, this: drwx--s--x lrwxrwxrwx drwxr-xr-x drwx--S--- -rw------- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx -rw------- -rw------- drwx------ -rw-r--r-- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw-rw-r-- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx -rwx--x--x -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx (these were taken from alan's piece...just a few of them) basically, any perl script on the web must have certain permissions assigned to it by the owner of the script (i.e., the webmaster, programmer, site admin, etc.)...each script has different permissions granted to the user, group, & world...with these permissions being "read" (the "r" in the above text...allowing the permission to access the script), "write" (the "w"...granting the permission to write, or alter, the script), & "execute" (the "x"...granting the permission to run the script)...where alan mentions that there are too many "777"'s means that there are too many instances where the permission to write to the script are granted to everyone... >From: "Geoffrey Gatza" > As one can plainly see there is no art in your code. There is no finesse in your example to compare or expand on to other areas. > So no, your snippet is nothing. while it is, yes, a snippet, php, i think, it quite artful...& possesses quite a bit finesse...definitely one of the most versatile languages out there...not to mention the economic implications of using it instead of, say, asp on an ms server with an access database...or paying for a cold fusion server...then again, i guess it's easy enough to think of the web as existing simply as a user, their browser, & a website...nevermind the politics of something like open source...so while i offered a short piece of code, there is quite a bit behind the use of php...perhaps, tho, by nothing you meant nothing explicitly literary... as for the second example, which is a traceroute from my machine to the buffalo.edu server, i'm sure you could talk about the spatial relationship between a user & the data which they are encountering at the epc...or the routes through which data must travel before the binaries are interpreted by your browser & rendered as poetry...or whether or not one's relationship to a website is strictly defined by user --> website (ignoring the server admins who keep the sites alive...mediators, in a sense, between you & the work at the epc...or the mails on this list)... so yes, i'd say there is quite a bit going on... > Try Alan's work, there are many who love it, this may be an indicator that it has merit and should be allowed its duration. not sure where i said alan shouldn't be allowed to post his work...or not sure where i questioned it's merit... > maybe there is a component loose behind your computer not allowing you to see? nice to know we could discuss something without getting into personal digs... & alan, thanks for the explanation...tho in many ways i think the idea of things slipping (which suggest some sense of disempowerment...or inability to act upon such circumstances) might not be that appropriate with regards to file permissions...after all, you had to set those permissions, right? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:27:22 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Nick Piombino Subject: Join T.I.P.S. Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit > Pray and work for non-boring practices and freedom from computer-assisted > fascists over-posting their creative works on this list As the former president of Taskforce and Initiative for Poet Solidarity I would like to point to this example to illustrate why as a poet you should join T.I.P.S. (Taskforce and Initiative for Poet Solidarity). To become a member of T.I.P.S. all that is necessary is to do something once in awhile to encourage and help another poet. Or you can choose to refrain from overly discouraging and negatively criticizing another poet. T.I.P.S. has no bureaucracy. You automatically become a member when you start helping other poets. You can resign and rejoin at any time. In my opinion (and I encourage any and all other opinions on this) it is not possible to be a member of T.I.P.S., for example, and call another poet a fascist simply for writing too much and sharing their writing too often with other list members. When you think of T.I.P.S., think of giving another poet some tips. Give them tips about their poetry, for example (constructive criticism is ok as long as the motive for offering it is actually constructive but preferable to this might be offering some enthusiasm and efforts to comprehend what the poet is trying to do with their work). Other kinds of help for poets could include suggesting places for the poet to publish, or mentioning writing that the poet might benefit from reading, or practical help to poets such as sending books, magazines, or any other beneficial information. In the time it takes to complain about anything, you could write to a poet right now and offer her or him something useful and supportive. Join T.I.P.S. Now! Nick Piombino ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:34:41 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Pierre Joris Subject: Re: Join T.I.P.S. In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit & now for news rom the ugly version TIPS (I abviously favor Nick's T.I.P.S.) -- Pierre Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 4:40 PM Subject: Postal Service Won't Join TIPS Program By Randolph E. Schmidt Associated Press Wednesday, 17 July, 2002 WASHINGTON (AP) - The Postal Service has decided not to take part in a government program touted as a tip service for authorities concerned with terrorism, but which is being assailed as a scheme to cast ordinary Americans as "peeping Toms." "The Postal Service had been approached by homeland security regarding Operation TIPS; however, it was decided that the Postal Service and its letter carriers would not be participating in the program at this time," the agency said in a statement issued Wednesday. The project is promoted by the Justice Department as a means for workers whose jobs bring them in contact with neighborhoods, highways and businesses to report suspicious activities. But it has drawn the wrath of the American Civil Liberties Union, which charged it would result in Americans spying on one another. Attorney General John Ashcroft's spokeswoman said that the program, still in the development stage, would set up people to spy upon one another in their homes and communities. Barbara Comstock said the agency had no intention for people - such as utility workers - to enter or have access to the homes of individuals. The idea is to organize information from people whose jobs take them through neighborhoods, along the coasts and highways and on public transit, she said. Said Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge: "The last thing we want is Americans spying on Americans. That's just not what the president is all about, and not what the TIPS program is all about." The ACLU said the concept was worrisome, nonetheless. "The administration apparently wants to implement a program that will turn local cable or gas or electrical technicians into government-sanctioned Peeping Toms," said Rachel King, an ACLU legislative counsel. The ACLU said it was concerned that these volunteers would, in effect, be searching people's homes without warrants, that resources would be wasted on a flood of useless tips and that the program would encourage vigilantism and racial profiling. It would provide a central reporting point for reports of unusual but non-emergency situations. Among those involved in the voluntary program could be truckers, mail carriers, train conductors, ship captains, utility employees and others. On Tuesday the Postal Service said it had held preliminary discussions with homeland security officials on the project but had not make a final decision. That decision came Wednesday with the announcement the agency would opt out, at least for now. Officials did not elaborate on the decision. "It is important to note, however, that the Postal Service has established processes for our postal employees nationwide to report suspicious activity to the Postal Inspection Service and to local authorities," the agency pointed out. Ridge told radio reporters that people in certain occupations are ideal observers. "They might pick up a break in the certain rhythm or pattern of a community. They may pick up in the course of their daily business something that's very unusual." He noted that the program is voluntary. "There's a big difference being vigilant and being a vigilante. We just want people to use their common sense," Ridge said. "It is not a government intrusion. The president just wants people to be alert and aware. ... We're not asking for people to spy on people." Operation TIPS is a part of the Citizen Corps, an initiative announced by President Bush in his State of the Union address. (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, this material is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes.) Print This Story E-mail This Story © : t r u t h o u t 2002 | t r u t h o u t | forum | issues | editorial | letters | donate | contact | | voting rights | environment | budget | children | politics | indigenous survival | energy | | defense | health | economy | human rights | labor | trade | women | reform | global | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ______________________________________________________________________ Pierre Joris 6 Madison Place Albany NY 12202 A day. I can spend all kinds of time Tel: (518) 426-0433 Considering which word to set beside this one. Fax: (518) 426-3722 The life of art Cell: (518) 225-7123 - Philip Whalen Email: joris@albany.edu Url: ________________________________________________________________________ > ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:33:52 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Sheila Massoni Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit snippet short version whippet? sm. ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 08:01:35 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Joel Weishaus Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > the permissions in questions are, basically, this: > > drwx--s--x lrwxrwxrwx drwxr-xr-x drwx--S--- -rw------- -rw------- > -rwxrwxrwx -rw------- -rw------- drwx------ -rw-r--r-- -rw------- > -rw------- -rw------- -rw-rw-r-- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx -rwx--x--x > -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx > > (these were taken from alan's piece...just a few of them) > > basically, any perl script on the web must have certain permissions assigned > to it by the owner of the script (i.e., the webmaster, programmer, site > admin, etc.)...each script has different permissions granted to the user, > group, & world...with these permissions being "read" (the "r" in the above > text...allowing the permission to access the script), "write" (the > "w"...granting the permission to write, or alter, the script), & "execute" > (the "x"...granting the permission to run the script)...where alan mentions > that there are too many "777"'s means that there are too many instances > where the permission to write to the script are granted to everyone... > I've also found that permissions can suddenly change on the server side, especially when you're parked at a university. -Joel Joel Weishaus Center for Excellence in Writing Portland State University Portland, Oregon http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 15:18:12 +0000 Reply-To: rsillima@yahoo.com Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Ron Silliman Subject: When I hear the word Kulchar.... Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed The U.S. Army announced that more than 400,000 people have downloaded the service's new recruiting game since it became available last week . . . "America's Army" is a pair of games, one a squad-based shooter imitating military tactics and another a simulation game that replicates a typical Army career path . . . "With this great demand, we've taken all measures to ensure that everyone who wants to play the game will be able to," said Lt. Col. Casey Wardynski, project originator and director. "We've increased the number of servers, increased the number of gamers that can play in a mission, and are releasing software this week to let gamers host their own servers." http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=70&70&e=18&u=/cn/20020711/tc_cn/942939 _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:39:01 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Tracy Ruggles Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <004d01c22f25$f4f33470$aa0d0e44@vaio> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; Charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 02.7.19 at 9:12 AM, Duration Press (jerrold@DURATIONPRESS.COM) said: >> As one can plainly see there is no art in your code. >> There is no finesse in your example to compare or expand >> on to other areas. So no, your snippet is nothing. > >while it is, yes, a snippet, php, i think, it quite artful...& possesses >quite a bit finesse...definitely one of the most versatile languages out >there...not to mention the economic implications of using it instead of, >say, asp on an ms server with an access >database...or paying for a cold fusion server...then again, i guess it's >easy enough to think of the web as existing simply as a user, their browser, >& a website...nevermind the politics of something like open source...so >while i offered a short piece of code, there is quite a bit behind the use >of php...perhaps, tho, by nothing you meant nothing explicitly literary... As long as we're talking about artful/poetic code, I have to show the relevent 'translation' of your PHP code in Python (a simpler, more power, more poetic language): import socket s = socket.socket(socket.AF_INET, socket.SOCK_STREAM) def portscan (server, port): for i in range(3): try: fp = s.bind((server, port)) except socket.error: fp = None if fp: return 1 else: return 0 # and using it to scan the first 200 ports of wired.com print [(port, portscan('wired.com',port)) for port in range(200)] I wouldn't call this code, or your, poetic, really. But, in writing a lot of code, there is a certain elegance with various programs, but I still wouldn't call it the act of writing poetry. Sometimes code, as a found object, can be examined for its poetic value, but couldn't anything, really? Wasn't it Williams' note about the plums that was elevated to poetry? (Or, was it a poem imagined as a note about plums?) When any material (experience or object) is re-positioned as a generative device for your own poetry then we can start talking about poetics. I could take the above piece of code and contemplate the problems of human communication and theneed to 'scan' the openings in a lover's psychological armor or the ties that bind one person to another when they're searching for a port of entry or the stream of material emanating from our physical sockets. And, then, I could let the contemplation find its own form -- it could find a series of couplets (me to the port) to inhabit, but more likely I'd guide it to a deformed version of the above code: bring in the socket make the socket full i scan so i scan so i can scan thrice i wait for thee bind eye to eye being none But, then, is this poetry, too? When do we cross the line and give ourselves permission to talk about it *as* poetry? --Tracy ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:10:11 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Floodeditions@AOL.COM Subject: On the Cave You Live In MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The new issue of Boston Review contains a brief but excellent review of ON THE CAVE YOU LIVE IN Philip Jenks=20 Flood Editions, $10 (paper) Available through www.floodeditions.com=20 or Small Press Distribution/SPD -------------------------------------------------------------------- http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR27.3/poetrymicroreviews.html Philip Jenks should be feared for what he's yet to write. His first=20 full-length=20 book reads as if Patmos had been an island in West Virginia, and now that=20 Jenks is back among us, all will be converted to "The New Jesus," or at leas= t=20 made to look back over our shoulders. These are poems of reckoning, and=20 poems to be reckoned with. Some of what sets Jenks apart from the slew of=20 'new American voices' is his comfort under a quilt of dialects, and with=20 schools=20 of thought that run the table up through a Foucaultian paranoia (in the=20 foreboding=20 "Panoptikos") to the domestically ominous eye that his mother paints on the=20 clock: "His speech is from crevices / running diagonal through the=20 /underneath=20 what was A&PS." His diction draws on epileptic fits of tongues and a proved=20 geometry that first appears in the book as a bodiless 'I/you.' These siamese= =20 spectres separate and then come stand in opposition to each other, as in the= =20 opening poem ("I didn't write you today. / when I did / you were all hollowe= d=20 out / boney cuneiform / on the cave you live in"), or later in "Tropics,"=20 ("You're=20 the interfused strata / that and you together / that was incalculable"). The= =20 'I/you'=20 and "I-Thou" are both the known and that which is still being glimpsed from=20 within the cave. And then just as these propositions are set forth, the book= =20 steps=20 out of its cavernous strictures into a landscape where John the Baptist,=20 Christ,=20 and Archimedes might walk over the same bridge. At this point the language=20 becomes as dense as an Appalachian landscape, ostensibly mute of meaning=20 ("dumstruc you al fa falling / blunder with laundered airs / is hot plus the= =20 hot=20 blacktop"), though these sonic abstractions are carefully augmented by sweet= =20 lyrical stanzas and brief returns to the logic problems posed at the=20 beginning. =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0--Christopher Mattiso= n=20 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 12:48:13 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Duration Press Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tracy Ruggles" >> I wouldn't call this code, or your, poetic, really. But, in writing a lot of code, there is a certain elegance with various programs, but I still wouldn't call it the act of writing poetry. Sometimes code, as a found object, can be examined for its poetic value, but couldn't anything, really? Wasn't it Williams' note about the plums that was elevated to poetry? (Or, was it a poem imagined as a note about plums?)<< sure, anything could be examined for its poetic value...perhaps everything should be... >> When any material (experience or object) is re-positioned as a generative device for your own poetry then we can start talking about poetics. I could take the above piece of code and contemplate the problems of human communication and theneed to 'scan' the openings in a lover's psychological armor or the ties that bind one person to another when they're searching for a port of entry or the stream of material emanating from our physical sockets. > > And, then, I could let the contemplation find its own form -- it could find a series of couplets (me to the port) to inhabit, but more likely I'd guide it to a deformed version of the above code: > > bring in the socket > make the socket full > > i scan so i scan so i can scan > > thrice i wait for thee > bind eye to eye > being none > > But, then, is this poetry, too? When do we cross the line and give ourselves permission to talk about it *as* poetry? > > --Tracy<< so, then, the poetic exists through the contemplation upon given material? or the poetic exists because of the repositioning of given material by the poet? could not a piece of code be viewed as a found poem in the same way as a flier found on the street of new york? ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:23:47 EDT Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Murat Nemet-Nejat Subject: Re: Help! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 7/19/02 9:13:08 AM, jerrold@DURATIONPRESS.COM writes: >asically, any perl script on the web must have certain permissions assigned > >to it by the owner of the script (i.e., the webmaster, programmer, site > >admin, etc.)...each script has different permissions granted to the user, > >group, & world...with these permissions being "read" (the "r" in the above > >text...allowing the permission to access the script), "write" (the > >"w"...granting the permission to write, or alter, the script), & "execute" > >(the "x"...granting the permission to run the script)...where alan mentions > >that there are too many "777"'s means that there are too many instances > >where the permission to write to the script are granted to everyone... > > Thanks a lot for the clarification. Murat ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 13:25:27 -0400 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Alan Sondheim Subject: Re: Help! In-Reply-To: <92.28ff513b.2a691eae@aol.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Permissions establish who can access specific files and directories. They can be set for everyone, for a specific user, for a group. Accessing includes the ability to read, write, and execute the files (the last if they are programs). Permissions can be set for each of these in turn. Alan Work at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Older at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2002 available: write sondheim@panix.com ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 16:20:26 -0500 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: Thomas Bell Subject: Re: Help! MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT is there a poetics of the art of parking at a university? tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joel Weishaus" To: Sent: Friday, July 19, 2002 10:01 AM Subject: Re: Help! > > the permissions in questions are, basically, this: > > > > drwx--s--x lrwxrwxrwx drwxr-xr-x drwx--S--- -rw------- -rw------- > > -rwxrwxrwx -rw------- -rw------- drwx------ -rw-r--r-- -rw------- > > -rw------- -rw------- -rw-rw-r-- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx -rwx--x--x > > -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rw------- -rwxrwxrwx > > > > (these were taken from alan's piece...just a few of them) > > > > basically, any perl script on the web must have certain permissions > assigned > > to it by the owner of the script (i.e., the webmaster, programmer, site > > admin, etc.)...each script has different permissions granted to the user, > > group, & world...with these permissions being "read" (the "r" in the above > > text...allowing the permission to access the script), "write" (the > > "w"...granting the permission to write, or alter, the script), & "execute" > > (the "x"...granting the permission to run the script)...where alan > mentions > > that there are too many "777"'s means that there are too many instances > > where the permission to write to the script are granted to everyone... > > > > I've also found that permissions can suddenly change on the server side, > especially when you're parked at a university. > > -Joel > > Joel Weishaus > Center for Excellence in Writing > Portland State University > Portland, Oregon > http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282 ========================================================================= Date: Fri, 19 Jul 2002 10:39:22 -0700 Reply-To: UB Poetics discussion group Sender: UB Poetics discussion group From: "K.Silem Mohammad" Subject: Re: Help! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed null device how the real world works ... starting off with "Genesis was all just poetry" ... PPP is going, it'd be interesting to portscan ... the works - they studies much of this poetry ... i tried to portscan the ip on port 80, ... Cellpadding" or "Function" Here's the virus data ... vogon15.zip 950731 Source code for Vogon Poetry ... law-rah] collective : >vogon poetry : how human brains actually function ... Index of: ** * Visual Basic Function ...